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Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2014 15:20:46 +0200
From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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Subject: [Anima] Homenet feedback on the ANIMA charter
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Dear all,

Based on the previous UCAN BoF, we are considering having an ANIMA WG: 
Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach
This is now a proposed charter, under consideration by the IESG.
This is your chance to provide feedback on 
http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/anima/charter/
Note also that a BoF has been requested, just in case.
Since HOMENET was mentioned during the UCAN BoF, I thought of 
double-checking with you guys.

Regards, Benoit






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Subject: [Anima] NETCONF feedback on the ANIMA charter
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Dear all,

Based on the previous UCAN BoF, we are considering having an ANIMA WG: 
Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach
This is now a proposed charter, under consideration by the IESG.
This is your chance to provide feedback on 
http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/anima/charter/
Note also that a BoF has been requested, just in case.
Since NETCONF (zero-touch) was mentioned during the UCAN BoF, I thought 
of double-checking with you guys.

Regards, Benoit


From nobody Wed Oct  1 07:34:33 2014
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Pete Resnick's No Objection on charter-ietf-anima-00-09: (with COMMENT)
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Dear all,

See Pete's feedback on the charter text.

Regards, Benoit
> Pete Resnick has entered the following ballot position for
> charter-ietf-anima-00-09: No Objection
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> This is right on the borderline of "Block" for me. I have no objection to
> the basic work to be done at all, but there's a bunch of stuff in this
> charter that is unclear to me. I really hope you'll do an edit pass
> before external review. Overall, I think the text of this charter is
> unwieldy and needs to be reduced to make it clearer. Specific comments
> below.
>
> 1st paragraph:
>
>     An autonomic function works in a distributed way across various
>     network elements, but allowing central guidance and reporting, and
>     co-existence with non-autonomic methods of management.
>
> Do all autonomic functions work distributed? I'm not sure what this
> means.
>
>     s/behaviors/functions
>
> It seems like you switched terminology for no particular reason.
>
> 2nd paragraph: (nit) s/healing and optimization/healing, and
> optimization
> (I actually was momentarily confused as to what the four were.)
>
> Seems like the 3rd paragraph could be reduced.
>
> I'm not sure what purpose the 4th paragraph serves. Sounds more like the
> intro to a document this WG should produce. I would strike it.
>
> 6th paragraph:
>
>     The infrastructure should be capable of
>
> Don't you mean "The components should be capable of"?
>
> 9th paragraph:
>
>     Definition of a discovery functionality for autonomic functions
>
> I don't understand what that means. By "functionality" do you mean
> protocol?
>
> 10th paragraph. First, let me just correct the English:
>
>     Each proposal should have its own motivation and complete workflow as
>     an autonomic process. The design of these proposals should clearly
>     target reusability in other use cases. The WG will verify all
>     proposed solutions to make sure the components are reusable,
>     necessary, and sufficient.
>
> But even with that done, I'm not at all sure what the above means. Does
> the first sentence simply mean that the document should not normatively
> reference each other, or is it saying something else? And the last
> sentence seems repetitive and obvious. Does it mean something that I'm
> missing?
>
> 11th paragraph: Does the first sentence simply mean, "In addition, the WG
> will develop solutions for the following two use cases:"? Perhaps you
> could say that. :-)
>
>
> .
>


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From: Dean Bogdanovic <deanb@juniper.net>
To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Tomorrow's ANIMA meeting cancelled
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Tomorrow's ANIMA meeting cancelled
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--_000_AE46AC97966040F3B3C91552FB543B15junipernet_
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Michael,

If people will be there, at the meeting, I would like to discuss following =
part of the charter


The main goal of the ANIMA WG is therefore to develop common infrastructure
components for distributed functions. The infrastructure should be capable =
of
providing the following services to those distributed functions:
o a common way to identify nodes
o a common security model
o a discovery mechanism
o a negotiation mechanism to enable closed-loop interaction
o a secure and logically separated communications channel
o a consistent autonomic management model


The first three bullets are good, especially the 3rd bullet about discovery=
 mechanisms, but what I don't understand is what do you mean by closed-loop=
 interaction. There is a need for control loop between autonomic agents, as=
 well between autonomic agent and device where the autonomic agent sits. An=
d then, how is it different from secure and logically separated communicati=
on channel. I see lot of overlap between those two bullets.


Where suitable protocols, models or methods exist, they will be preferred o=
ver creating new ones.

I agree with the above statement 100% :-)

It is preferred that autonomic functions would co-exist with traditional me=
thods
of management and configuration, and the initial focus would be on
self-configuration.

This statement is confusing. From a device perspective, there is a set of i=
nstructions coming on how to change the state. Are those instructions deriv=
ed locally or are sent from a remote station is not important for configura=
tion of the device. What requirements are needed for autonomic agent to com=
municate the configuration instructions to device is  important.

Dean

On Oct 1, 2014, at 2:41 AM, Michael Behringer (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.co=
m<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>> wrote:

Several folks can't make the ANIMA call tomorrow, we decided therefore to c=
ancel the "official" call.

I leave the webex in place, in case some folks still want meet.

Michael

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Michael,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If people will be there, at the meeting, I would like to discuss follo=
wing part of the charter</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<pre>The main goal of the ANIMA WG is therefore to develop common infrastru=
cture
components for distributed functions. The infrastructure should be capable =
of
providing the following services to those distributed functions:=20
o a common way to identify nodes
o a common security model
o a discovery mechanism
o a negotiation mechanism to enable closed-loop interaction
o a secure and logically separated communications channel
o a consistent autonomic management model
<br></pre>
<pre><font face=3D"Helvetica"><span style=3D"white-space: normal;">The firs=
t three bullets are good, especially the 3rd bullet about discovery mechani=
sms, but what I don't understand is what do you mean by closed-loop interac=
tion. There is a need for control loop between autonomic agents, as well be=
tween autonomic agent and device where the autonomic agent sits. And&nbsp;t=
hen, how is it different from secure and logically&nbsp;separated&nbsp;comm=
unication channel. I see lot of overlap between those two bullets.&nbsp;</s=
pan></font></pre>
<div><br>
</div>
<pre>Where suitable protocols, models or methods exist, they will be prefer=
red over creating new ones. </pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; white-space: normal; ">I agree =
with the above statement 100% :-)</span></pre>
<pre>It is preferred that autonomic functions would co-exist with tradition=
al methods
of management and configuration, and the initial focus would be on
self-configuration.&nbsp;</pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; white-space: normal; ">This sta=
tement is confusing. From a device perspective, there is a set of instructi=
ons coming on how to change the state. Are those instructions derived local=
ly or are sent from a remote station is not important for configuration of =
the device. What requirements are needed for autonomic agent to communicate=
 the configuration instructions to device is &nbsp;important.</span></pre>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>Dean</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On Oct 1, 2014, at 2:41 AM, Michael Behringer (mbehring) &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type=3D"cite">Several folks can't make the ANIMA call tomorrow,=
 we decided therefore to cancel the &quot;official&quot; call.
<br>
<br>
I leave the webex in place, in case some folks still want meet. <br>
<br>
Michael<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Anima mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a><br>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
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From nobody Wed Oct  1 09:27:15 2014
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To: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] Homenet feedback on the ANIMA charter
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On 1.10.2014, at 16.20, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:
> Based on the previous UCAN BoF, we are considering having an ANIMA WG: =
Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach
> This is now a proposed charter, under consideration by the IESG.
> This is your chance to provide feedback on =
http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/anima/charter/
> Note also that a BoF has been requested, just in case.
> Since HOMENET was mentioned during the UCAN BoF, I thought of =
double-checking with you guys.

TL;DR: Please either add homenet (and solutions already in the WG) to =
the WG goals, or drop IoT too and just focus on enterprise.

Looking at the milestones, I am very curious about lack of requirements =
or architecture work before promoting solutions and even WGLCing them.=20=


Notably, adoption of a solution (discovery+negotiation protocol) before =
adoption of use cases seems like putting cart before the horse.

It is not also clear to me how well the suitability of the solution has =
been evaluated. For implementation of some autonomic, distributed =
algorithms, point-to-point negotiation protocol such as the suggested =
solution is far from optimal. In case of homenet, we moved from =
hierarchical DHCPv6 PD (point-to-point hierarchy) to a distributed =
algorithm (draft-ietf-homenet-prefix-assignment*) which was result of =
over two years of draft updates, academic proving of correctness etc.=20

Also, while dropping homenet from list of target things is _a_ way to =
solve the conflict that we already have autonomic solution for that =
particular problem which works (it was mentioned there before in e.g. =
IETF 90 not-quite-WG-forming BoF), even better would be to have a =
general solution that _also_ works in a homenet. Especially as IoT is =
just specialized type of homenet, I assume, although it is covered only =
by one mention in the whole charter (and the rest does not seem very IoT =
oriented).

Looking at the solutions, from homenet developer / draft writer point of =
view, I would welcome a general trust bootstrapping framework. I am not =
convinced by the current solution draft for that (it assumes too many =
components for a home network case at least). A lot of the other things =
seem somewhat enterprise-y (control plane with IPsec, own routing =
protocol and ULAs? Not in IoT device at least, nor probably in =
constrained homenet router), or just unsuitable, such as the negotiation =
protocol that does not seem like a good fit for distributed decision =
making which is usually the key thing in autonomic networking.=20

Cheers,

-Markus


From SRS0=Td+t=6Y=darou.fr=pierre.pfister@bounces.m4x.org  Wed Oct  1 06:58:15 2014
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From: Pierre Pfister <pierre.pfister@darou.fr>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] Homenet feedback on the ANIMA charter
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Hello Benoit,

Looks like ANIMA=92s goals are quite similar to Homenet=92s indeed.
Please allow me to comment the charter.

1. Why would you put the =91negociation protocol=92 in the charter (even =
last call in the milestones !) ? It seems fair to me that discussions =
about what should be the approach and solution happen after the WG =
creation, isn=92t it ?

2. "A solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management within a network." =
-> Please have a look to HNCP (draft-ietf-homenet-hncp) + Prefix =
Assignment Algorithm (draft-ietf-homenet-prefix-assignement). Ha, and we =
have running open-source code for all this as well: =
https://github.com/sbyx/hnetd.

3. "A solution for always-on, data plane independent connectivity =
between network elements (i.e., stable in the case of =
mis-configurations)." Sure the =91data plane independent=92 makes it a =
little bit more buzzy. But in the end this pretty much looks like the =
problem routing protocols are made to solve (The 'mis-configurations=92 =
part is more about point 2.).


Regards,

- Pierre


Le 1 oct. 2014 =E0 15:20, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> a =E9crit :

> Dear all,
>=20
> Based on the previous UCAN BoF, we are considering having an ANIMA WG: =
Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach
> This is now a proposed charter, under consideration by the IESG.
> This is your chance to provide feedback on =
http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/anima/charter/
> Note also that a BoF has been requested, just in case.
> Since HOMENET was mentioned during the UCAN BoF, I thought of =
double-checking with you guys.
>=20
> Regards, Benoit
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> homenet mailing list
> homenet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" =
content=3D"text/html charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div>Hello =
Benoit,</div><div><br></div><div>Looks like ANIMA=92s goals are quite =
similar to Homenet=92s indeed.</div><div>Please allow me to comment the =
charter.</div><div><br></div><div>1. Why would you put the =91negociation =
protocol=92 in the charter (even last call in the milestones !) ? It =
seems fair to me that discussions about what should be the approach and =
solution happen after the WG creation, isn=92t it =
?</div><div><br></div><div>2. "<font face=3D"arial, helvetica, clean, =
sans-serif"><span style=3D"line-height: 16px;">A solution for =
distributed IPv6 prefix management within a network." =
-&gt;&nbsp;</span></font><span style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, =
clean, sans-serif; line-height: 16px;">Please have a look to HNCP =
(draft-ietf-homenet-hncp) + Prefix Assignment Algorithm =
(draft-ietf-homenet-prefix-assignement). Ha, and we have running =
open-source code for all this as well:&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://github.com/sbyx/hnetd">https://github.com/sbyx/hnetd</a>.<=
/div><div><br></div><div>3. "<span style=3D"font-family: arial, =
helvetica, clean, sans-serif; line-height: 16px;">A solution for =
always-on, data plane independent connectivity between network =
elements</span><span style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, clean, =
sans-serif; line-height: 16px;">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-family: =
arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif; line-height: 16px;">(i.e., stable =
in the case of mis-configurations)</span><span style=3D"font-family: =
arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif; line-height: =
16px;">."</span>&nbsp;<font face=3D"arial, helvetica, clean, =
sans-serif"><span style=3D"line-height: 16px;">Sure the&nbsp;=91data =
plane independent=92 makes it a little bit more buzzy. But in the end =
this pretty much looks like the problem routing protocols are made to =
solve (The 'mis-configurations=92&nbsp;part is more about point =
2.).</span></font></div><div><br></div><div><font face=3D"arial, =
helvetica, clean, sans-serif"><span style=3D"line-height: =
16px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, =
clean, sans-serif"><span style=3D"line-height: =
16px;">Regards,</span></font></div><div><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, =
clean, sans-serif"><span style=3D"line-height: =
16px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, =
clean, sans-serif"><span style=3D"line-height: 16px;">- =
Pierre</span></font></div><div><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, clean, =
sans-serif"><span style=3D"line-height: =
16px;"><br></span></font></div><br><div><div>Le 1 oct. 2014 =E0 15:20, =
Benoit Claise &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt; a =E9crit =
:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">Dear all,<br><br>Based on the previous UCAN BoF, we are =
considering having an ANIMA WG: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model =
and Approach<br>This is now a proposed charter, under consideration by =
the IESG.<br>This is your chance to provide feedback on <a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/anima/charter/">http://datatracker.=
ietf.org/wg/anima/charter/</a><br>Note also that a BoF has been =
requested, just in case.<br>Since HOMENET was mentioned during the UCAN =
BoF, I thought of double-checking with you guys.<br><br>Regards, =
Benoit<br><br><br><br><br><br>____________________________________________=
___<br>homenet mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:homenet@ietf.org">homenet@ietf.org</a><br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet">https://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/homenet</a><br></blockquote></div><br></body></html>=

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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] Homenet feedback on the ANIMA charter
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Pierre,

On 02/10/2014 02:58, Pierre Pfister wrote:
> Hello Benoit,
>=20
> Looks like ANIMA=E2=80=99s goals are quite similar to Homenet=E2=80=99s=

> indeed.=20

Except that homenet has a limited scope and is well advanced
in its work.

> Please allow me to comment the charter.
>=20
> 1. Why would you put the =E2=80=98negociation protocol=E2=80=99 in the
> charter (even last call in the milestones !) ? It seems fair
> to me that discussions about what should be the approach and
> solution happen after the WG creation, isn=E2=80=99t it ?

Not really. The details are all to be discussed of course, but
the concept is fundamental to autonomics: devices talk to each
other rather than receiving instructions from above. (As Rene
Struik has pointed out, there is another way to look at it,
state synchronization, but that's largely a difference of
terminology.)

>=20
> 2. "A solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management within
> a network." -> Please have a look to HNCP
> (draft-ietf-homenet-hncp) + Prefix Assignment Algorithm
> (draft-ietf-homenet-prefix-assignement). Ha, and we have
> running open-source code for all this as well:
> https://github.com/sbyx/hnetd.

Yes, in the homenet context. It's a bit different in the carrier
context. What we are really after is a general mechanism for the
future. If we miss the homenet boat, that's our fault for
starting late. There is a lot to learn from homenet, in my opinion.

>=20
> 3. "A solution for always-on, data plane independent
> connectivity between network elements (i.e., stable in the
> case of mis-configurations)." Sure the =E2=80=98data plane
> independent=E2=80=99 makes it a little bit more buzzy. But in the end
> this pretty much looks like the problem routing protocols are
> made to solve (The 'mis-configurations=E2=80=99 part is more about
> point 2.).

Yes, for the problem that routing protocols solve, they do a
good job. But we are talking about all the problems that routing
protocols don't solve.

   Brian

>=20
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> - Pierre
>=20
>=20
> Le 1 oct. 2014 =C3=A0 15:20, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> a
> =C3=A9crit :
>=20
>> Dear all,
>>=20
>> Based on the previous UCAN BoF, we are considering having
>> an ANIMA WG: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and
>> Approach This is now a proposed charter, under
>> consideration by the IESG. This is your chance to provide
>> feedback on http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/anima/charter/=20
>> Note also that a BoF has been requested, just in case.=20
>> Since HOMENET was mentioned during the UCAN BoF, I thought
>> of double-checking with you guys.
>>=20
>> Regards, Benoit
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________ homenet
>> mailing list homenet@ietf.org=20
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________ homenet
> mailing list homenet@ietf.org=20
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet


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Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2014 08:44:51 +1300
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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] Homenet feedback on the ANIMA charter
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Markus,

On 02/10/2014 05:27, Markus Stenberg wrote:
> On 1.10.2014, at 16.20, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
> wrote:
>> Based on the previous UCAN BoF, we are considering having
>> an ANIMA WG: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and
>> Approach This is now a proposed charter, under
>> consideration by the IESG. This is your chance to provide
>> feedback on http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/anima/charter/ 
>> Note also that a BoF has been requested, just in case. 
>> Since HOMENET was mentioned during the UCAN BoF, I thought
>> of double-checking with you guys.
> 
> TL;DR: Please either add homenet (and solutions already in
> the WG) to the WG goals, or drop IoT too and just focus on
> enterprise.

Personal comments on this:

1) One reason for not stating homenet as part of the scope is
that we do not want to interfere with the current progress in
homenet. Personally I think there is a lot to learn from
homenet, but as I just said to Pierre, we are too late to affect
homenet's choices. I will be delighted if the results can be
applied to homenets in future, of course.

2) I am also a little nervous about the IoT reference in the
charter. We haven't yet seen a use case description that would
apply to IoT (which has IMHO a much broader scope than home
networks, e.g. building services.)

I think the initial focus is indeed on enterprise and carrier
networks where the OPEX pain is greatest, but we should not
artificially limit the applicability either.

> 
> Looking at the milestones, I am very curious about lack of
> requirements or architecture work before promoting solutions
> and even WGLCing them.

There are the existing NMRG documents and there will be an
overview document, but we are following quite specific direction
from the ADs about this.

> Notably, adoption of a solution (discovery+negotiation
> protocol) before adoption of use cases seems like putting
> cart before the horse.

Again, we are following direction from the ADs.

> It is not also clear to me how well the suitability of the
> solution has been evaluated. For implementation of some
> autonomic, distributed algorithms, point-to-point negotiation
> protocol such as the suggested solution is far from optimal.
> In case of homenet, we moved from hierarchical DHCPv6 PD
> (point-to-point hierarchy) to a distributed algorithm
> (draft-ietf-homenet-prefix-assignment*) which was result of
> over two years of draft updates, academic proving of
> correctness etc.

There is a subtle point here. The idea is to produce generic
components that do *not* imply specific autonomic algorithms. If
we do it correctly, those components will support either a top
down or a distributed mechanism or even a blend of the two
approaches. So actually the solution choices come later: we
don't have to decide in advance between top-down and peer-to-peer.

> Also, while dropping homenet from list of target things is
> _a_ way to solve the conflict that we already have autonomic
> solution for that particular problem which works (it was
> mentioned there before in e.g. IETF 90 not-quite-WG-forming
> BoF), even better would be to have a general solution that
> _also_ works in a homenet. 

If we were having this discussion 5 years ago, I would agree.
But you homenet guys are ahead of us.

> Especially as IoT is just
> specialized type of homenet, I assume, 

As above - I don't think that's right; IoT is much broader.

> although it is covered
> only by one mention in the whole charter (and the rest does
> not seem very IoT oriented).

So should we say in the charter that the scope is everything but
the initial focus is enterprise and carrier?

> 
> Looking at the solutions, from homenet developer / draft
> writer point of view, I would welcome a general trust
> bootstrapping framework. I am not convinced by the current
> solution draft for that (it assumes too many components for a
> home network case at least). A lot of the other things seem
> somewhat enterprise-y (control plane with IPsec, own routing
> protocol and ULAs? Not in IoT device at least, nor probably
> in constrained homenet router), or just unsuitable, such as
> the negotiation protocol that does not seem like a good fit
> for distributed decision making which is usually the key
> thing in autonomic networking.

That means we have explained the negotiation idea badly. It is
not top-down negotiation like
draft-boucadair-network-automation-requirements. It is peer to
peer with top-down as a special case.

Thanks
   Brian


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Subject: Re: [Anima] Tomorrow's ANIMA meeting cancelled
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On 02/10/2014 03:52, Dean Bogdanovic wrote:
> Michael,
> 
> If people will be there, at the meeting, I would like to
> discuss following part of the charter
> 
> 
> The main goal of the ANIMA WG is therefore to develop common
> infrastructure components for distributed functions. The
> infrastructure should be capable of providing the following
> services to those distributed functions: 
o a common way to identify nodes
o a common security model
o a discovery mechanism
o a negotiation mechanism to enable closed-loop interaction
o a secure and logically separated communications channel
o a consistent autonomic management model
> 
> 
> The first three bullets are good, especially the 3rd bullet
> about discovery mechanisms, but what I don't understand is
> what do you mean by closed-loop interaction. There is a need
> for control loop between autonomic agents, as well between
> autonomic agent and device where the autonomic agent sits.

Yes. And that (in a discrete mechanism rather than an analogue
servo-mechanism) means iterative exchange of messages until an
ending condition is reached. That is negotiation (which is
slightly more general than state synchronization as mentioned by
Rene).

However, it would be more logical to re-order those two bullets:

o a secure and logically separated communications channel
o a negotiation mechanism to enable closed-loop interaction

because of course it is that secure channel that will carry the
negotiation messages.


> And then, how is it different from secure and logically
> separated communication channel. I see lot of overlap between
> those two bullets.

I think that is clarified by putting them in the right order.

> Where suitable protocols, models or methods exist, they will
> be preferred over creating new ones.
> 
> I agree with the above statement 100% :-)

We all do. But after surveying available protocols I am not
too optimistic.

> 
> It is preferred that autonomic functions would co-exist with
> traditional methods of management and configuration, and the
> initial focus would be on self-configuration.
> 
> This statement is confusing. From a device perspective, there
> is a set of instructions coming on how to change the state.
> Are those instructions derived locally or are sent from a
> remote station is not important for configuration of the
> device. What requirements are needed for autonomic agent to
> communicate the configuration instructions to device is
> important.

I find your statement confusing too. Maybe we should just delete
"and the initial focus would be on self-configuration."?

Regards
    Brian
> 
> Dean
> 
> On Oct 1, 2014, at 2:41 AM, Michael Behringer (mbehring)
> <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>> wrote:
> 
> Several folks can't make the ANIMA call tomorrow, we decided
> therefore to cancel the "official" call.
> 
> I leave the webex in place, in case some folks still want
> meet.
> 
> Michael
> 
> _______________________________________________ Anima mailing
> list Anima@ietf.org<mailto:Anima@ietf.org> 
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________ Anima mailing
> list Anima@ietf.org 
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


From nobody Wed Oct  1 13:04:27 2014
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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet]   Homenet feedback on the ANIMA charter
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Dear colleagues:

I think it would be a mistake not to consider highly constrained networks=
 and devices at first. If one would like to get anywhere close to 30-50 b=
illion interconnected objects (the rosy marketing numbers by Cisco and In=
tel referenced everywhere), there is an absolute requirement to make trus=
t lifecycle management and network management overhead virtually disappea=
r, without the need for human intervention, except in exceptional cases. =
Without almost zero cost over the *entire* lifecycle of a device, while a=
t the same time assuring a mix of ease of use - flexibility - security, f=
orecasted internet of things type deployments figures may never materiali=
ze. Any solution direction that would not consider foremost the constrain=
ts of the deployment category that will soon outnumber all others should =
be discouraged. If one closely examines and designs for the nimble object=
s in the universe, it would obviously also fit for the less nimble; the o=
ther way around, this does not necessarily hold.

As argued before, I do agree with comments that solid footing for the eff=
ort needs more work (which, I think, has been echoed by the group during =
conf calls and by the AD).

Best regards, Rene

=3D=3D
So should we say in the charter that the scope is everything but the init=
ial focus is enterprise and carrier?

On 10/1/2014 3:44 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> Markus,
>
> On 02/10/2014 05:27, Markus Stenberg wrote:
>> On 1.10.2014, at 16.20, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
>> wrote:
>>> Based on the previous UCAN BoF, we are considering having
>>> an ANIMA WG: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and
>>> Approach This is now a proposed charter, under
>>> consideration by the IESG. This is your chance to provide
>>> feedback on http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/anima/charter/
>>> Note also that a BoF has been requested, just in case.
>>> Since HOMENET was mentioned during the UCAN BoF, I thought
>>> of double-checking with you guys.
>> TL;DR: Please either add homenet (and solutions already in
>> the WG) to the WG goals, or drop IoT too and just focus on
>> enterprise.
> Personal comments on this:
>
> 1) One reason for not stating homenet as part of the scope is
> that we do not want to interfere with the current progress in
> homenet. Personally I think there is a lot to learn from
> homenet, but as I just said to Pierre, we are too late to affect
> homenet's choices. I will be delighted if the results can be
> applied to homenets in future, of course.
>
> 2) I am also a little nervous about the IoT reference in the
> charter. We haven't yet seen a use case description that would
> apply to IoT (which has IMHO a much broader scope than home
> networks, e.g. building services.)
>
> I think the initial focus is indeed on enterprise and carrier
> networks where the OPEX pain is greatest, but we should not
> artificially limit the applicability either.
>
>> Looking at the milestones, I am very curious about lack of
>> requirements or architecture work before promoting solutions
>> and even WGLCing them.
> There are the existing NMRG documents and there will be an
> overview document, but we are following quite specific direction
> from the ADs about this.
>
>> Notably, adoption of a solution (discovery+negotiation
>> protocol) before adoption of use cases seems like putting
>> cart before the horse.
> Again, we are following direction from the ADs.
>
>> It is not also clear to me how well the suitability of the
>> solution has been evaluated. For implementation of some
>> autonomic, distributed algorithms, point-to-point negotiation
>> protocol such as the suggested solution is far from optimal.
>> In case of homenet, we moved from hierarchical DHCPv6 PD
>> (point-to-point hierarchy) to a distributed algorithm
>> (draft-ietf-homenet-prefix-assignment*) which was result of
>> over two years of draft updates, academic proving of
>> correctness etc.
> There is a subtle point here. The idea is to produce generic
> components that do *not* imply specific autonomic algorithms. If
> we do it correctly, those components will support either a top
> down or a distributed mechanism or even a blend of the two
> approaches. So actually the solution choices come later: we
> don't have to decide in advance between top-down and peer-to-peer.
>
>> Also, while dropping homenet from list of target things is
>> _a_ way to solve the conflict that we already have autonomic
>> solution for that particular problem which works (it was
>> mentioned there before in e.g. IETF 90 not-quite-WG-forming
>> BoF), even better would be to have a general solution that
>> _also_ works in a homenet.
> If we were having this discussion 5 years ago, I would agree.
> But you homenet guys are ahead of us.
>
>> Especially as IoT is just
>> specialized type of homenet, I assume,
> As above - I don't think that's right; IoT is much broader.
>
>> although it is covered
>> only by one mention in the whole charter (and the rest does
>> not seem very IoT oriented).
> So should we say in the charter that the scope is everything but
> the initial focus is enterprise and carrier?
>
>> Looking at the solutions, from homenet developer / draft
>> writer point of view, I would welcome a general trust
>> bootstrapping framework. I am not convinced by the current
>> solution draft for that (it assumes too many components for a
>> home network case at least). A lot of the other things seem
>> somewhat enterprise-y (control plane with IPsec, own routing
>> protocol and ULAs? Not in IoT device at least, nor probably
>> in constrained homenet router), or just unsuitable, such as
>> the negotiation protocol that does not seem like a good fit
>> for distributed decision making which is usually the key
>> thing in autonomic networking.
> That means we have explained the negotiation idea badly. It is
> not top-down negotiation like
> draft-boucadair-network-automation-requirements. It is peer to
> peer with top-down as a special case.
>
> Thanks
>     Brian
>
> _______________________________________________
> homenet mailing list
> homenet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet


--=20
email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363



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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] Homenet feedback on the ANIMA charter
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> Except that homenet has a limited scope and is well advanced
> in its work.
Still some of the essential underlying problems are the same and I think 
you should not discard the progress in this working group all too 
quickly. Instead adopting concepts and ideas from homenet  could very 
much benefit ANIMA. The underlying problems of "state synchronization" 
or "negotiation" are the same. Sure we've already built something on top 
of that but why not look at the foundation.


> Not really. The details are all to be discussed of course, but
> the concept is fundamental to autonomics: devices talk to each
> other rather than receiving instructions from above. (As Rene
> Struik has pointed out, there is another way to look at it,
> state synchronization, but that's largely a difference of
> terminology.)
Well I think your statement is a bit premature here. Yes, a negotiation 
protocol is certainly necessary.
However even superficially comparing 
draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol with draft-ietf-homenet-hncp 
shows that the problem can be tackled by completely different approaches 
and it would surprise me if these were the only ways to do it. Plus I 
can't really tell from a first quick look at it which of these 
approaches is more generic than the other. Perhaps we should try to 
compare both and see what could be improved in either variant or maybe 
find another variant which combines the best of both worlds?


Cheers,

Steven


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From: Dean Bogdanovic <deanb@juniper.net>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Tomorrow's ANIMA meeting cancelled
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Tomorrow's ANIMA meeting cancelled
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On Oct 1, 2014, at 3:54 PM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>=
 wrote:

> On 02/10/2014 03:52, Dean Bogdanovic wrote:
>> Michael,
>>=20
>> If people will be there, at the meeting, I would like to
>> discuss following part of the charter
>>=20
>>=20
>> The main goal of the ANIMA WG is therefore to develop common
>> infrastructure components for distributed functions. The
>> infrastructure should be capable of providing the following
>> services to those distributed functions:=20
> o a common way to identify nodes
> o a common security model
> o a discovery mechanism
> o a negotiation mechanism to enable closed-loop interaction
> o a secure and logically separated communications channel
> o a consistent autonomic management model
>>=20
>>=20
>> The first three bullets are good, especially the 3rd bullet
>> about discovery mechanisms, but what I don't understand is
>> what do you mean by closed-loop interaction. There is a need
>> for control loop between autonomic agents, as well between
>> autonomic agent and device where the autonomic agent sits.
>=20
> Yes. And that (in a discrete mechanism rather than an analogue
> servo-mechanism) means iterative exchange of messages until an
> ending condition is reached. That is negotiation (which is
> slightly more general than state synchronization as mentioned by
> Rene).
>=20
> However, it would be more logical to re-order those two bullets:
>=20
> o a secure and logically separated communications channel
> o a negotiation mechanism to enable closed-loop interaction
>=20
> because of course it is that secure channel that will carry the
> negotiation messages.
>=20
>=20
>> And then, how is it different from secure and logically
>> separated communication channel. I see lot of overlap between
>> those two bullets.
>=20
> I think that is clarified by putting them in the right order.
>=20
>> Where suitable protocols, models or methods exist, they will
>> be preferred over creating new ones.
>>=20
>> I agree with the above statement 100% :-)
>=20
> We all do. But after surveying available protocols I am not
> too optimistic.
>=20
>>=20
>> It is preferred that autonomic functions would co-exist with
>> traditional methods of management and configuration, and the
>> initial focus would be on self-configuration.
>>=20
>> This statement is confusing. From a device perspective, there
>> is a set of instructions coming on how to change the state.
>> Are those instructions derived locally or are sent from a
>> remote station is not important for configuration of the
>> device. What requirements are needed for autonomic agent to
>> communicate the configuration instructions to device is
>> important.
>=20
> I find your statement confusing too. Maybe we should just delete
> "and the initial focus would be on self-configuration."?

So what do you mean by self-configuration? There is a question where and ho=
w the configuration is created and you need an interface to communicate the=
 configuration to the device. Question I have: does anima have any special =
requirements for the interface through which device is configured? This is =
something that is should be listed as an area to explore. Autonomic agent c=
an decide based on certain conditions that device state has to be changed a=
nd it can create set of instructions to change the state of the device. How=
 will that state change communicate to the device is a question too?

Dean

>=20
> Regards
>    Brian
>>=20
>> Dean
>>=20
>> On Oct 1, 2014, at 2:41 AM, Michael Behringer (mbehring)
>> <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>> Several folks can't make the ANIMA call tomorrow, we decided
>> therefore to cancel the "official" call.
>>=20
>> I leave the webex in place, in case some folks still want
>> meet.
>>=20
>> Michael
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________ Anima mailing
>> list Anima@ietf.org<mailto:Anima@ietf.org>=20
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________ Anima mailing
>> list Anima@ietf.org=20
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2014 10:48:57 +1300
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Tomorrow's ANIMA meeting cancelled
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On 02/10/2014 09:59, Dean Bogdanovic wrote:
> On Oct 1, 2014, at 3:54 PM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

>>> It is preferred that autonomic functions would co-exist with
>>> traditional methods of management and configuration, and the
>>> initial focus would be on self-configuration.
>>>
>>> This statement is confusing. From a device perspective, there
>>> is a set of instructions coming on how to change the state.
>>> Are those instructions derived locally or are sent from a
>>> remote station is not important for configuration of the
>>> device. What requirements are needed for autonomic agent to
>>> communicate the configuration instructions to device is
>>> important.
>> I find your statement confusing too. Maybe we should just delete
>> "and the initial focus would be on self-configuration."?
> 
> So what do you mean by self-configuration? There is a question where and how the configuration is created and you need an interface to communicate the configuration to the device. Question I have: does anima have any special requirements for the interface through which device is configured? This is something that is should be listed as an area to explore. Autonomic agent can decide based on certain conditions that device state has to be changed and it can create set of instructions to change the state of the device. How will that state change communicate to the device is a question too?

Two comments on that:

1. Re the charter, we don't have to list every topic we will
discuss.

2. Re the question you ask: Yes, it certainly needs to be
discussed. My personal feeling is that we should declare it out
of scope for the generic mechanisms, and in scope for each
individual AN application. It really seems like something that
might need to be different in each case, expecially when there
are pre-existing mechanisms that might be used within a
sub-system (an example would be prefix delegation).

    Brian


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Adrian Farrel has entered the following ballot position for
charter-ietf-anima-00-09: No Objection

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COMMENT:
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I have no objection to having a go at this work, although I really worry
that scope needs to be very tightly screwed down and enforced to stop
this going off the rails.

The charter text here is hugely long. Does it need so many words to scope
what the working group is going to do? The general problem space
description reads more like a BoF proposal, and I worry that more words
means more loopholes (or rat holes) for the introduction of work that is
out of the principal focus.

I'm sure that good discussions have led to the list of four areas of self
management. I do worry that these may be three too many to achieve any
progress. Maybe it would be better to walk before we run?

But I won't Block this charter for any of this. Just ask the interest
parties to think hard.



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BLOCK:
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Why is this on the agenda as a proposed charter for external review when
we have an approved BoF of the same name for Honolulu?





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> Why is this on the agenda as a proposed charter for external review when
> we have an approved BoF of the same name for Honolulu?

The BoF is a placeholder, in case we don't finished chartering in
time.  This is a standard thing we do with late-chartering working
groups.

Barry


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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet]   Homenet feedback on the ANIMA charter
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On 02/10/2014 09:04, Rene Struik wrote:
> Dear colleagues:
> 
> I think it would be a mistake not to consider highly constrained
> networks and devices at first. 

That's a good comment and is more precise than the buzzword "IoT". It
would not distress me to see the buzzword removed.

However, my personal impression is that the resource-constrained
devices will be be carrying much management software at all, so
it would be the gateways to a whole cluster of constrained devices
that would be the target systems for Anima.

    Brian

> If one would like to get anywhere close
> to 30-50 billion interconnected objects (the rosy marketing numbers by
> Cisco and Intel referenced everywhere), there is an absolute requirement
> to make trust lifecycle management and network management overhead
> virtually disappear, without the need for human intervention, except in
> exceptional cases. Without almost zero cost over the *entire* lifecycle
> of a device, while at the same time assuring a mix of ease of use -
> flexibility - security, forecasted internet of things type deployments
> figures may never materialize. Any solution direction that would not
> consider foremost the constraints of the deployment category that will
> soon outnumber all others should be discouraged. If one closely examines
> and designs for the nimble objects in the universe, it would obviously
> also fit for the less nimble; the other way around, this does not
> necessarily hold.
> 
> As argued before, I do agree with comments that solid footing for the
> effort needs more work (which, I think, has been echoed by the group
> during conf calls and by the AD).
> 
> Best regards, Rene
> 
> ==
> So should we say in the charter that the scope is everything but the
> initial focus is enterprise and carrier?
> 
> On 10/1/2014 3:44 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>> Markus,
>>
>> On 02/10/2014 05:27, Markus Stenberg wrote:
>>> On 1.10.2014, at 16.20, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Based on the previous UCAN BoF, we are considering having
>>>> an ANIMA WG: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and
>>>> Approach This is now a proposed charter, under
>>>> consideration by the IESG. This is your chance to provide
>>>> feedback on http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/anima/charter/
>>>> Note also that a BoF has been requested, just in case.
>>>> Since HOMENET was mentioned during the UCAN BoF, I thought
>>>> of double-checking with you guys.
>>> TL;DR: Please either add homenet (and solutions already in
>>> the WG) to the WG goals, or drop IoT too and just focus on
>>> enterprise.
>> Personal comments on this:
>>
>> 1) One reason for not stating homenet as part of the scope is
>> that we do not want to interfere with the current progress in
>> homenet. Personally I think there is a lot to learn from
>> homenet, but as I just said to Pierre, we are too late to affect
>> homenet's choices. I will be delighted if the results can be
>> applied to homenets in future, of course.
>>
>> 2) I am also a little nervous about the IoT reference in the
>> charter. We haven't yet seen a use case description that would
>> apply to IoT (which has IMHO a much broader scope than home
>> networks, e.g. building services.)
>>
>> I think the initial focus is indeed on enterprise and carrier
>> networks where the OPEX pain is greatest, but we should not
>> artificially limit the applicability either.
>>
>>> Looking at the milestones, I am very curious about lack of
>>> requirements or architecture work before promoting solutions
>>> and even WGLCing them.
>> There are the existing NMRG documents and there will be an
>> overview document, but we are following quite specific direction
>> from the ADs about this.
>>
>>> Notably, adoption of a solution (discovery+negotiation
>>> protocol) before adoption of use cases seems like putting
>>> cart before the horse.
>> Again, we are following direction from the ADs.
>>
>>> It is not also clear to me how well the suitability of the
>>> solution has been evaluated. For implementation of some
>>> autonomic, distributed algorithms, point-to-point negotiation
>>> protocol such as the suggested solution is far from optimal.
>>> In case of homenet, we moved from hierarchical DHCPv6 PD
>>> (point-to-point hierarchy) to a distributed algorithm
>>> (draft-ietf-homenet-prefix-assignment*) which was result of
>>> over two years of draft updates, academic proving of
>>> correctness etc.
>> There is a subtle point here. The idea is to produce generic
>> components that do *not* imply specific autonomic algorithms. If
>> we do it correctly, those components will support either a top
>> down or a distributed mechanism or even a blend of the two
>> approaches. So actually the solution choices come later: we
>> don't have to decide in advance between top-down and peer-to-peer.
>>
>>> Also, while dropping homenet from list of target things is
>>> _a_ way to solve the conflict that we already have autonomic
>>> solution for that particular problem which works (it was
>>> mentioned there before in e.g. IETF 90 not-quite-WG-forming
>>> BoF), even better would be to have a general solution that
>>> _also_ works in a homenet.
>> If we were having this discussion 5 years ago, I would agree.
>> But you homenet guys are ahead of us.
>>
>>> Especially as IoT is just
>>> specialized type of homenet, I assume,
>> As above - I don't think that's right; IoT is much broader.
>>
>>> although it is covered
>>> only by one mention in the whole charter (and the rest does
>>> not seem very IoT oriented).
>> So should we say in the charter that the scope is everything but
>> the initial focus is enterprise and carrier?
>>
>>> Looking at the solutions, from homenet developer / draft
>>> writer point of view, I would welcome a general trust
>>> bootstrapping framework. I am not convinced by the current
>>> solution draft for that (it assumes too many components for a
>>> home network case at least). A lot of the other things seem
>>> somewhat enterprise-y (control plane with IPsec, own routing
>>> protocol and ULAs? Not in IoT device at least, nor probably
>>> in constrained homenet router), or just unsuitable, such as
>>> the negotiation protocol that does not seem like a good fit
>>> for distributed decision making which is usually the key
>>> thing in autonomic networking.
>> That means we have explained the negotiation idea badly. It is
>> not top-down negotiation like
>> draft-boucadair-network-automation-requirements. It is peer to
>> peer with top-down as a special case.
>>
>> Thanks
>>     Brian
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> homenet mailing list
>> homenet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet
> 
> 


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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] Homenet feedback on the ANIMA charter
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On 02/10/2014 09:27, Steven Barth wrote:
> 
>> Except that homenet has a limited scope and is well advanced
>> in its work.
> Still some of the essential underlying problems are the same and I think
> you should not discard the progress in this working group all too
> quickly. Instead adopting concepts and ideas from homenet  could very
> much benefit ANIMA. The underlying problems of "state synchronization"
> or "negotiation" are the same. Sure we've already built something on top
> of that but why not look at the foundation.
> 
> 
>> Not really. The details are all to be discussed of course, but
>> the concept is fundamental to autonomics: devices talk to each
>> other rather than receiving instructions from above. (As Rene
>> Struik has pointed out, there is another way to look at it,
>> state synchronization, but that's largely a difference of
>> terminology.)
> Well I think your statement is a bit premature here. Yes, a negotiation
> protocol is certainly necessary.
> However even superficially comparing
> draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol with draft-ietf-homenet-hncp
> shows that the problem can be tackled by completely different approaches
> and it would surprise me if these were the only ways to do it. Plus I
> can't really tell from a first quick look at it which of these
> approaches is more generic than the other. Perhaps we should try to
> compare both and see what could be improved in either variant or maybe
> find another variant which combines the best of both worlds?

I quite agree. We will be updating the config-negotiation-protocol draft
but I think there is a lot to learn from HNCP. I hope the words in
the charter don't imply otherwise.

   Brian

> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Steven
> 


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Subject: Re: [Anima] Pete Resnick's No Objection on charter-ietf-anima-00-09: (with COMMENT)
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On 02/10/2014 03:34, Benoit Claise wrote:
...
>> This is right on the borderline of "Block" for me. I have no objection to
>> the basic work to be done at all, but there's a bunch of stuff in this
>> charter that is unclear to me. I really hope you'll do an edit pass
>> before external review. Overall, I think the text of this charter is
>> unwieldy and needs to be reduced to make it clearer. Specific comments
>> below.
>>
>> 1st paragraph:
>>
>>     An autonomic function works in a distributed way across various
>>     network elements, but allowing central guidance and reporting, and
>>     co-existence with non-autonomic methods of management.
>>
>> Do all autonomic functions work distributed? I'm not sure what this
>> means.

If they aren't distributed, they just aren't candidates for protocol work.
I think the logic of this sentence needs adjustment.

>>     s/behaviors/functions
>>
>> It seems like you switched terminology for no particular reason.

Well, a behavior is externally observable but a function might not be.
However, I agree we don't need that subtlety in the charter.

>>
>> 2nd paragraph: (nit) s/healing and optimization/healing, and
>> optimization
>> (I actually was momentarily confused as to what the four were.)

OK

>>
>> Seems like the 3rd paragraph could be reduced.
>>
>> I'm not sure what purpose the 4th paragraph serves. Sounds more like the
>> intro to a document this WG should produce. I would strike it.

It was added because people said the scope and goals were unclear (because
the 3rd paragraph was too short ;-).

>>
>> 6th paragraph:
>>
>>     The infrastructure should be capable of
>>
>> Don't you mean "The components should be capable of"?

OK

>>
>> 9th paragraph:
>>
>>     Definition of a discovery functionality for autonomic functions
>>
>> I don't understand what that means. By "functionality" do you mean
>> protocol?

 Definition of a discovery protocol for autonomic nodes.

>>
>> 10th paragraph. First, let me just correct the English:
>>
>>     Each proposal should have its own motivation and complete workflow as
>>     an autonomic process. The design of these proposals should clearly
>>     target reusability in other use cases. The WG will verify all
>>     proposed solutions to make sure the components are reusable,
>>     necessary, and sufficient.
>>
>> But even with that done, I'm not at all sure what the above means. Does
>> the first sentence simply mean that the document should not normatively
>> reference each other, or is it saying something else? 

Yes, I think the intention is that each case is fully self-contained.

>> And the last
>> sentence seems repetitive and obvious. Does it mean something that I'm
>> missing?

It reflects concerns in the community that the choice of components
we make today may be insufficient for the long term - so each use case
solution needs to be used to check that the components are adequate.

>>
>> 11th paragraph: Does the first sentence simply mean, "In addition, the WG
>> will develop solutions for the following two use cases:"? Perhaps you
>> could say that. :-)

Yes

    Brian


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Hi,

Several of us learned about draft-ietf-netconf-zerotouch
for the first time in Toronto. Clearly, the Anima WG if formed
will have to consider it as well as any other proposals for
that functionality. We have an explicit statement in the charter:

"Where suitable protocols, models or methods exist, they will be
preferred over creating new ones."

Apart from that, coexistence with netconf is a clear constraint
on what we do, and that is also explicit in the charter.

   Brian

On 02/10/2014 02:20, Benoit Claise wrote:
> Dear all,
> 
> Based on the previous UCAN BoF, we are considering having an ANIMA WG:
> Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach
> This is now a proposed charter, under consideration by the IESG.
> This is your chance to provide feedback on
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/anima/charter/
> Note also that a BoF has been requested, just in case.
> Since NETCONF (zero-touch) was mentioned during the UCAN BoF, I thought
> of double-checking with you guys.
> 
> Regards, Benoit
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> 


From nobody Wed Oct  1 16:47:42 2014
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Kathleen Moriarty has entered the following ballot position for
charter-ietf-anima-00-09: No Objection

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)



The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I do think this could be very useful work if the scope is clear and the
objectives can be met.  The current charter reads as if it is quite broad
to me.

I agree with Pete that there are some things in the charter that are not
quite clear enough.  When a security model is mentioned, I'm guessing it
means narrowly scoped for whatever is defined.   Could you elaborate on
what is intended?

The SACM WG and I2NSF (just a mailing list at this point) may have some
overlap with the security portion or maybe not depending on what was
intended.  It may be helpful to make sure there is some relationship
(folks from each paying attention).

Thanks.



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Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2014 12:55:33 +1300
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Kathleen Moriarty's No Objection on charter-ietf-anima-00-09: (with COMMENT)
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Kathleen,

On 02/10/2014 12:17, Kathleen Moriarty wrote:
...
> I do think this could be very useful work if the scope is clear and the
> objectives can be met.  The current charter reads as if it is quite broad
> to me.

The topic is potentially very broad but the charter is supposed to
narrow down the deliverables to things we hope are finite and feasible.
As other ADs have noticed, there is quite a lot of background material
in the charter, added during several weeks of discussion.

> I agree with Pete that there are some things in the charter that are not
> quite clear enough.  When a security model is mentioned, I'm guessing it
> means narrowly scoped for whatever is defined.   Could you elaborate on
> what is intended?

Well, it will of course be described in the appropriate drafts.
In fact it is described in several of the existing drafts, but that
is all subject to change by the WG of course. Are you saying we should
be more specific in the charter?

> The SACM WG and I2NSF (just a mailing list at this point) may have some
> overlap with the security portion or maybe not depending on what was
> intended.  It may be helpful to make sure there is some relationship
> (folks from each paying attention).

Certainly, when the time comes. I'm personally thinking that one of the
first things the future WG chairs should do is ask for a security
advisor, precisely because of the risks of overlap.

Rgds,
   Brian


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From: Dean Bogdanovic <deanb@juniper.net>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] NETCONF feedback on the ANIMA charter
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Cc: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, NETCONF <netconf@ietf.org>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Anima] NETCONF feedback on the ANIMA charter
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Brian,

I believe that ANIMA WG can raise some additional requirements to the NETCO=
NF group for configuration protocol requirements, hence it would be useful =
to follow what is being developed in that group.

Dean

On Oct 1, 2014, at 6:44 PM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>=
 wrote:

> Hi,
>=20
> Several of us learned about draft-ietf-netconf-zerotouch
> for the first time in Toronto. Clearly, the Anima WG if formed
> will have to consider it as well as any other proposals for
> that functionality. We have an explicit statement in the charter:
>=20
> "Where suitable protocols, models or methods exist, they will be
> preferred over creating new ones."
>=20
> Apart from that, coexistence with netconf is a clear constraint
> on what we do, and that is also explicit in the charter.
>=20
>   Brian
>=20
> On 02/10/2014 02:20, Benoit Claise wrote:
>> Dear all,
>>=20
>> Based on the previous UCAN BoF, we are considering having an ANIMA WG:
>> Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach
>> This is now a proposed charter, under consideration by the IESG.
>> This is your chance to provide feedback on
>> http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/anima/charter/
>> Note also that a BoF has been requested, just in case.
>> Since NETCONF (zero-touch) was mentioned during the UCAN BoF, I thought
>> of double-checking with you guys.
>>=20
>> Regards, Benoit
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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Subject: Re: [Anima] Kathleen Moriarty's No Objection on charter-ietf-anima-00-09: (with COMMENT)
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--089e0141a1a0def2000504659836
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Thanks for the quick response, Brian.

On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 7:55 PM, Brian E Carpenter <
brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

> Kathleen,
>
> On 02/10/2014 12:17, Kathleen Moriarty wrote:
> ...
> > I do think this could be very useful work if the scope is clear and the
> > objectives can be met.  The current charter reads as if it is quite broad
> > to me.
>
> The topic is potentially very broad but the charter is supposed to
> narrow down the deliverables to things we hope are finite and feasible.
> As other ADs have noticed, there is quite a lot of background material
> in the charter, added during several weeks of discussion.
>

Yes, thanks for your work on the charter.


>
> > I agree with Pete that there are some things in the charter that are not
> > quite clear enough.  When a security model is mentioned, I'm guessing it
> > means narrowly scoped for whatever is defined.   Could you elaborate on
> > what is intended?
>
> Well, it will of course be described in the appropriate drafts.
> In fact it is described in several of the existing drafts, but that
> is all subject to change by the WG of course. Are you saying we should
> be more specific in the charter?
>

An email response would be great.  What I am asking is just to understand
what you mean by the goal, "a common security model".  The two groups I
pointed out are specific to security models WRT assessing systems, one for
configurations and the other is still shaping up, but policy is the focus.
I was more checking that the security model was around the automation
defined in the scope of work and not replicating the policy automation that
might be done elsewhere - or that we are sure they are coordinated.  I
tried to ask the question in a leading way to see if my assumption was
correct, maybe I wasn't clear enough.  Thanks.


>
> > The SACM WG and I2NSF (just a mailing list at this point) may have some
> > overlap with the security portion or maybe not depending on what was
> > intended.  It may be helpful to make sure there is some relationship
> > (folks from each paying attention).
>
> Certainly, when the time comes. I'm personally thinking that one of the
> first things the future WG chairs should do is ask for a security
> advisor, precisely because of the risks of overlap.
>
> Great, thanks.  I'd hope that there would be several people interested
since there may be obvious connections between the efforts.

Rgds,
>    Brian
>



-- 

Best regards,
Kathleen

--089e0141a1a0def2000504659836
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks for the quick response, Brian.<div class=3D"gmail_e=
xtra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 7:55 PM, Brian =
E Carpenter <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail=
.com" target=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<b=
r><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:=
1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Kathleen,<br>
<br>
On 02/10/2014 12:17, Kathleen Moriarty wrote:<br>
...<br>
<span class=3D"">&gt; I do think this could be very useful work if the scop=
e is clear and the<br>
&gt; objectives can be met.=C2=A0 The current charter reads as if it is qui=
te broad<br>
&gt; to me.<br>
<br>
</span>The topic is potentially very broad but the charter is supposed to<b=
r>
narrow down the deliverables to things we hope are finite and feasible.<br>
As other ADs have noticed, there is quite a lot of background material<br>
in the charter, added during several weeks of discussion.<br></blockquote><=
div><br></div><div>Yes, thanks for your work on the charter. =C2=A0</div><d=
iv>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<span class=3D""><br>
&gt; I agree with Pete that there are some things in the charter that are n=
ot<br>
&gt; quite clear enough.=C2=A0 When a security model is mentioned, I&#39;m =
guessing it<br>
&gt; means narrowly scoped for whatever is defined.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Could you e=
laborate on<br>
&gt; what is intended?<br>
<br>
</span>Well, it will of course be described in the appropriate drafts.<br>
In fact it is described in several of the existing drafts, but that<br>
is all subject to change by the WG of course. Are you saying we should<br>
be more specific in the charter?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>An ema=
il response would be great.=C2=A0 What I am asking is just to understand wh=
at you mean by the goal, &quot;a common security model&quot;.=C2=A0 The two=
 groups I pointed out are specific to security models WRT assessing systems=
, one for configurations and the other is still shaping up, but policy is t=
he focus.=C2=A0 I was more checking that the security model was around the =
automation defined in the scope of work and not replicating the policy auto=
mation that might be done elsewhere - or that we are sure they are coordina=
ted.=C2=A0 I tried to ask the question in a leading way to see if my assump=
tion was correct, maybe I wasn&#39;t clear enough.=C2=A0 Thanks.</div><div>=
=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<span class=3D""><br>
&gt; The SACM WG and I2NSF (just a mailing list at this point) may have som=
e<br>
&gt; overlap with the security portion or maybe not depending on what was<b=
r>
&gt; intended.=C2=A0 It may be helpful to make sure there is some relations=
hip<br>
&gt; (folks from each paying attention).<br>
<br>
</span>Certainly, when the time comes. I&#39;m personally thinking that one=
 of the<br>
first things the future WG chairs should do is ask for a security<br>
advisor, precisely because of the risks of overlap.<br>
<br></blockquote><div>Great, thanks.=C2=A0 I&#39;d hope that there would be=
 several people interested since there may be obvious connections between t=
he efforts.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Rgds,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian<br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"=
ltr"><br><div>Best regards,</div><div>Kathleen</div></div>
</div></div>

--089e0141a1a0def2000504659836--


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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet]   Homenet feedback on the ANIMA charter
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On Oct 1, 2014, at 9:44 PM, Brian E Carpenter =
<brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> 1) One reason for not stating homenet as part of the scope is
> that we do not want to interfere with the current progress in
> homenet. Personally I think there is a lot to learn from
> homenet, but as I just said to Pierre, we are too late to affect
> homenet's choices. I will be delighted if the results can be
> applied to homenets in future, of course.

> If we were having this discussion 5 years ago, I would agree.
> But you homenet guys are ahead of us.


Yes and no.

Yes, homenet is ahead of anima in terms of, say, a distributed IPv6 =
prefix configuration algorithm. This is one of the first things the =
group began tackling, so there's quite a bit of water under the bridge =
here. However, while I have seen a lot of recent effort in security, =
homenet has a long way to go here. This happens to be something I get =
the impression anima has been working on for quite a while.

You say that you wish to learn from what homenet has done, yet the =
current proposed anima charter says:

...autonomic service agents will demonstrate the usage of the above
mentioned autonomic infrastructure components with two use cases:

o A solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management within a network.
Although prefix delegation is currently supported, it relies on human
action to subdivide and assign prefixes according to local requirements,
and this process could become autonomic.

This use case is precisely what draft-ietf-homenet-prefix-assignment =
does (which has roots all the way back to =
draft-arkko-homenet-prefix-assignment-00 in October 2011). So to =
homenet, this is a solved problem - with an algorithm that has been =
applied not just to HNCP, but to OSPF and ISIS.=20

I do think that there is room for a non-distributed algorithm that is =
tied more to centralized mechanisms, particularly as you move closer to =
a more tightly managed system. But for a distributed approach, as you =
observed Brian, homenet is rather far along.=20

This is just the most obvious example that jumps out at me. There may be =
something similar to say about HNCP itself, the use of src+dst routing, =
etc. In any case, It's not hard to extrapolate from here that in a =
year's time or so, if we continue on the current trajectory, homenet =
will have come up with its own non-anima secure bootstrapping, and anima =
will have come up with its own non-homenet distributed IPv6 prefix =
configuration. =20

- Mark


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;"><br><div><div>On Oct 1, 2014, at 9:44 PM, Brian E =
Carpenter &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a=
>&gt; wrote:</div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">1) One reason for not stating homenet as part of the scope =
is<br>that we do not want to interfere with the current progress =
in<br>homenet. Personally I think there is a lot to learn =
from<br>homenet, but as I just said to Pierre, we are too late to =
affect<br>homenet's choices. I will be delighted if the results can =
be<br>applied to homenets in future, of =
course.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite">If =
we were having this discussion 5 years ago, I would agree.<br>But you =
homenet guys are ahead of =
us.<br></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div><br></div><div>Yes and =
no.</div><div><br></div><div>Yes, homenet is ahead of anima in terms of, =
say, a distributed IPv6 prefix configuration algorithm. This is one of =
the first things the group began tackling, so there's quite a bit of =
water under the bridge here. However, while I have seen a lot of recent =
effort in security, homenet has a long way to go here. This happens to =
be something I get the impression anima has been working on for quite a =
while.</div><div><br></div><div>You say that you wish to learn from what =
homenet has done, yet the current proposed anima charter =
says:</div><div><br></div><div><pre style=3D"line-height: 1.2em; =
margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; font-size: =
13.3333330154419px;">...autonomic service agents will demonstrate the =
usage of the above
mentioned autonomic infrastructure components with two use =
cases:</pre><pre style=3D"line-height: 1.2em; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; font-size: 13.3333330154419px;">
o A solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management within a network.
Although prefix delegation is currently supported, it relies on human
action to subdivide and assign prefixes according to local requirements,
and this process could become =
autonomic.</pre><div><br></div></div><div>This use case is precisely =
what draft-ietf-homenet-prefix-assignment does (which has roots all the =
way back to&nbsp;draft-arkko-homenet-prefix-assignment-00 in October =
2011). So to homenet, this is a solved problem - with an algorithm that =
has been applied not just to HNCP, but to OSPF and =
ISIS.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>I do think that there is room for a =
non-distributed algorithm that is tied more to centralized mechanisms, =
particularly as you move closer to a more tightly managed system. But =
for a distributed approach, as you observed Brian, homenet is rather far =
along.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>This is just the most obvious =
example that jumps out at me. There may be something similar to say =
about HNCP itself, the use of src+dst routing, etc. In any case, It's =
not hard to extrapolate from here that in a year's time or so, if we =
continue on the current trajectory, homenet will have come up with its =
own non-anima secure bootstrapping, and anima will have come up with its =
own non-homenet distributed IPv6 prefix configuration. =
&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>- =
Mark</div><div><br></div></div></body></html>=

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Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2014 15:45:09 +1300
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Kathleen Moriarty's No Objection on charter-ietf-anima-00-09: (with COMMENT)
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in line...

On 02/10/2014 13:21, Kathleen Moriarty wrote:
> Thanks for the quick response, Brian.
> 
> On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 7:55 PM, Brian E Carpenter <
> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Kathleen,
>>
>> On 02/10/2014 12:17, Kathleen Moriarty wrote:
>> ...
>>> I do think this could be very useful work if the scope is clear and the
>>> objectives can be met.  The current charter reads as if it is quite broad
>>> to me.
>> The topic is potentially very broad but the charter is supposed to
>> narrow down the deliverables to things we hope are finite and feasible.
>> As other ADs have noticed, there is quite a lot of background material
>> in the charter, added during several weeks of discussion.
>>
> 
> Yes, thanks for your work on the charter.
> 
> 
>>> I agree with Pete that there are some things in the charter that are not
>>> quite clear enough.  When a security model is mentioned, I'm guessing it
>>> means narrowly scoped for whatever is defined.   Could you elaborate on
>>> what is intended?
>> Well, it will of course be described in the appropriate drafts.
>> In fact it is described in several of the existing drafts, but that
>> is all subject to change by the WG of course. Are you saying we should
>> be more specific in the charter?
>>
> 
> An email response would be great.  What I am asking is just to understand
> what you mean by the goal, "a common security model".  The two groups I
> pointed out are specific to security models WRT assessing systems, one for
> configurations and the other is still shaping up, but policy is the focus.
> I was more checking that the security model was around the automation
> defined in the scope of work and not replicating the policy automation that
> might be done elsewhere - or that we are sure they are coordinated.  I
> tried to ask the question in a leading way to see if my assumption was
> correct, maybe I wasn't clear enough.  Thanks.

Yes. The security discussions are about securing the autonomic control
plane and the protocol(s) used for commuucation between autonomic agents.
There's also a general assumption that the devices involved will need
secure identities.

otoh if we succeed, there is no reason that security properties could not
be negotiated autonomically in future. However, that seems too far ahead
to be a current concern.

    Brian

> 
> 
>>> The SACM WG and I2NSF (just a mailing list at this point) may have some
>>> overlap with the security portion or maybe not depending on what was
>>> intended.  It may be helpful to make sure there is some relationship
>>> (folks from each paying attention).
>> Certainly, when the time comes. I'm personally thinking that one of the
>> first things the future WG chairs should do is ask for a security
>> advisor, precisely because of the risks of overlap.
>>
>> Great, thanks.  I'd hope that there would be several people interested
> since there may be obvious connections between the efforts.
> 
> Rgds,
>>    Brian
>>
> 
> 
> 


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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet]   Homenet feedback on the ANIMA charter
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On 02/10/2014 13:26, Mark Townsley wrote:
> On Oct 1, 2014, at 9:44 PM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 1) One reason for not stating homenet as part of the scope is
>> that we do not want to interfere with the current progress in
>> homenet. Personally I think there is a lot to learn from
>> homenet, but as I just said to Pierre, we are too late to affect
>> homenet's choices. I will be delighted if the results can be
>> applied to homenets in future, of course.
> 
>> If we were having this discussion 5 years ago, I would agree.
>> But you homenet guys are ahead of us.
> 
> 
> Yes and no.
> 
> Yes, homenet is ahead of anima in terms of, say, a distributed IPv6 prefix configuration algorithm. This is one of the first things the group began tackling, so there's quite a bit of water under the bridge here. However, while I have seen a lot of recent effort in security, homenet has a long way to go here. This happens to be something I get the impression anima has been working on for quite a while.
> 
> You say that you wish to learn from what homenet has done, yet the current proposed anima charter says:
> 
> ...autonomic service agents will demonstrate the usage of the above
> mentioned autonomic infrastructure components with two use cases:
> 
> o A solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management within a network.
> Although prefix delegation is currently supported, it relies on human
> action to subdivide and assign prefixes according to local requirements,
> and this process could become autonomic.
> 
> This use case is precisely what draft-ietf-homenet-prefix-assignment does (which has roots all the way back to draft-arkko-homenet-prefix-assignment-00 in October 2011). So to homenet, this is a solved problem - with an algorithm that has been applied not just to HNCP, but to OSPF and ISIS. 

Well, we have a bug in our short description, because the intention is to
support prefix assignment in a carrier scenario, which is different
in many ways. Good catch.

> I do think that there is room for a non-distributed algorithm that is tied more to centralized mechanisms, particularly as you move closer to a more tightly managed system. But for a distributed approach, as you observed Brian, homenet is rather far along. 

> This is just the most obvious example that jumps out at me. There may be something similar to say about HNCP itself, the use of src+dst routing, etc. In any case, It's not hard to extrapolate from here that in a year's time or so, if we continue on the current trajectory, homenet will have come up with its own non-anima secure bootstrapping, and anima will have come up with its own non-homenet distributed IPv6 prefix configuration.  

Which we should try to coordinate, since I see no reason in
theory why there can't be common underlying mechanisms between
enterprise, carrier and SOHO. But I don't want to hear in 2 years
time that homenet is stuck because anima hasn't met its milestones.

    Brian


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--90e6ba1efb46d628ad05046ab4f5
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On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 12:16 PM, Brian E Carpenter <
brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

> > This use case is precisely what draft-ietf-homenet-prefix-assignment
> does (which has roots all the way back to
> draft-arkko-homenet-prefix-assignment-00 in October 2011). So to homenet,
> this is a solved problem - with an algorithm that has been applied not just
> to HNCP, but to OSPF and ISIS.
>
> Well, we have a bug in our short description, because the intention is to
> support prefix assignment in a carrier scenario, which is different
> in many ways.


Really? Which ways?

--90e6ba1efb46d628ad05046ab4f5
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On T=
hu, Oct 2, 2014 at 12:16 PM, Brian E Carpenter <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpente=
r@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span c=
lass=3D"">&gt; This use case is precisely what draft-ietf-homenet-prefix-as=
signment does (which has roots all the way back to draft-arkko-homenet-pref=
ix-assignment-00 in October 2011). So to homenet, this is a solved problem =
- with an algorithm that has been applied not just to HNCP, but to OSPF and=
 ISIS.<br>
<br>
</span>Well, we have a bug in our short description, because the intention =
is to<br>
support prefix assignment in a carrier scenario, which is different<br>
in many ways.=C2=A0</blockquote><div><br></div><div>Really? Which ways?=C2=
=A0</div></div></div></div>

--90e6ba1efb46d628ad05046ab4f5--


From nobody Thu Oct  2 01:20:48 2014
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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] Homenet feedback on the ANIMA charter
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On 1.10.2014, at 22.44, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> =
wrote:
> Personal comments on this:
>=20
> 1) One reason for not stating homenet as part of the scope is
> that we do not want to interfere with the current progress in
> homenet. Personally I think there is a lot to learn from
> homenet, but as I just said to Pierre, we are too late to affect
> homenet's choices. I will be delighted if the results can be
> applied to homenets in future, of course.

Well, it sounds as if you plan to WGLC your negotiation protocol =
probably around the time we WGLC HNCP (or sooner? who knows).

> 2) I am also a little nervous about the IoT reference in the
> charter. We haven't yet seen a use case description that would
> apply to IoT (which has IMHO a much broader scope than home
> networks, e.g. building services.)
>=20
> I think the initial focus is indeed on enterprise and carrier
> networks where the OPEX pain is greatest, but we should not
> artificially limit the applicability either.

I would just say that you aim at enterprise networks and leave it at =
that, then. Considering home networks, and even more so constrained =
devices in the IoT land have different management model and resources =
than your typical enterprise devices.

> There are the existing NMRG documents and there will be an
> overview document, but we are following quite specific direction
> from the ADs about this.

Well, at least providing links to them in the charter would be probably =
good idea then. As it is, it looks like =91we have solution, here is the =
WG=92 to me.

>> It is not also clear to me how well the suitability of the
>> solution has been evaluated. For implementation of some
>> autonomic, distributed algorithms, point-to-point negotiation
>> protocol such as the suggested solution is far from optimal.
>> In case of homenet, we moved from hierarchical DHCPv6 PD
>> (point-to-point hierarchy) to a distributed algorithm
>> (draft-ietf-homenet-prefix-assignment*) which was result of
>> over two years of draft updates, academic proving of
>> correctness etc.
> There is a subtle point here. The idea is to produce generic
> components that do *not* imply specific autonomic algorithms. If
> we do it correctly, those components will support either a top
> down or a distributed mechanism or even a blend of the two
> approaches. So actually the solution choices come later: we
> don=92t have to decide in advance between top-down and peer-to-peer.

A protocol (draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol) that is essentially =
point-to-point state push/pull mechanism does not seem like natural fit =
for that (+- some discovery).

The scalable solutions with such protocol require hierarchies of =
delegation. For example, given prefix delegation problem, the reasonable =
(=3Dlow number of total message exchanges) solutions wind up subdividing =
the prefix hierarchically, or alternatively with some =91god node=92(s) =
that perform the allocations. It becomes harder if you have multiple =
sources of same resource (=3Dprefix) or want to be robust in case of =
failure.

>> although it is covered
>> only by one mention in the whole charter (and the rest does
>> not seem very IoT oriented).
> So should we say in the charter that the scope is everything but
> the initial focus is enterprise and carrier?

Or that you are developing enterprise solution and it can work for =
anything with luck.=20

>> Looking at the solutions, from homenet developer / draft
>> writer point of view, I would welcome a general trust
>> bootstrapping framework. I am not convinced by the current
>> solution draft for that (it assumes too many components for a
>> home network case at least). A lot of the other things seem
>> somewhat enterprise-y (control plane with IPsec, own routing
>> protocol and ULAs? Not in IoT device at least, nor probably
>> in constrained homenet router), or just unsuitable, such as
>> the negotiation protocol that does not seem like a good fit
>> for distributed decision making which is usually the key
>> thing in autonomic networking.
> That means we have explained the negotiation idea badly. It is
> not top-down negotiation like
> draft-boucadair-network-automation-requirements. It is peer to
> peer with top-down as a special case.

Sure, it is simple =91who is there=92, =92{can I haz X, (yes|no|no but =
you can have Y)}+=92  protocol as far as I can read the draft anyway =
(draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02)

It is not obvious to me how it would be even used to tell other all =
other nodes about e.g. change in some network parameter (say, NTP =
server). Is it a =91request=92? Who is it sent to? How to prevent =
duplication of sending it to nodes that already did receive it?

=46rom my point of view, a general network infra protocol needs

- discovery
- state push/pull _network wide_

HNCP does this; I am not sure how CDNP can be used for this, but I =
welcome examples.

Cheers,

-Markus=


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Dear all,

Some feedback received from the IESG

    If unmanaged networks are in scope, make sure the proponents are fully
    aware of the outcome of the zeroconf WG.

Regards, Benoit

--------------020207060201030304030209
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<html>
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    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1">
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    Dear all,<br>
    <br>
    Some feedback received from the IESG<br>
    <blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">If unmanaged networks are in scope, make sure the proponents are fully
aware of the outcome of the zeroconf WG.</pre>
    </blockquote>
    Regards, Benoit<br>
  </body>
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--------------020207060201030304030209--


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Subject: [Anima] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-09: (with BLOCK)
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Ted Lemon has entered the following ballot position for
charter-ietf-anima-00-09: Block

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)



The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
BLOCK:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

The following exchange between Mark and Brian illustrates what I want out
of a BoF or External Review discussion:

Mark:

[...]

In any case, It's not hard to extrapolate from here that in a year's time
or so, if we continue on the current trajectory, homenet will have come
up with its own non-anima secure bootstrapping, and anima will have come
up with its own non-homenet distributed IPv6 prefix configuration.  

Brian:

Which we should try to coordinate, since I see no reason in
theory why there can't be common underlying mechanisms between
enterprise, carrier and SOHO. But I don't want to hear in 2 years
time that homenet is stuck because anima hasn't met its milestones.

Ted:

Right now Homenet has a solution for the distributed configuration
problem with a spec and at least one WIP implementation, and is working
seriously on the mutual authentication problem.   There may be some
synergy between what Homenet is trying to do and what ANIMA is trying to
do.   If there is, it would be a big win to coordinate the two groups'
activities.   It may also be that there is no synergy, and the efforts
are really effectively independent.

Before the working group is chartered, I would like to see some clarity
reached about this.   If there is synergy, I'd like there to be some
clear agreement about how to move forward so that ANIMA can achieve its
goals and Homenet can achieve its goals without either creating an
interop problem or stalling.





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From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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Cc: homenet@ietf.org, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] Homenet feedback on the ANIMA charter
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On 01/10/2014 18:27, Markus Stenberg wrote:
> On 1.10.2014, at 16.20, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:
>> Based on the previous UCAN BoF, we are considering having an ANIMA WG: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach
>> This is now a proposed charter, under consideration by the IESG.
>> This is your chance to provide feedback on http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/anima/charter/
>> Note also that a BoF has been requested, just in case.
>> Since HOMENET was mentioned during the UCAN BoF, I thought of double-checking with you guys.
> TL;DR: Please either add homenet (and solutions already in the WG) to the WG goals, or drop IoT too and just focus on enterprise.
>
> Looking at the milestones, I am very curious about lack of requirements or architecture work before promoting solutions and even WGLCing them.
As mentioned in 
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00246.html

    A few observations, to start with:
    1. Autonomic Networking could be a huge explanatory field.
    2. From the BoF, we heard (among other points):
         There is interest but focus ... focus ... focus on things that
    could be done quickly
    3. The IESG has also been realizing that the process of problem
    statement/use cases/requirements/architecture/protocol takes way too
    long for the industry.
    4. If a great architecture document to rule all autonomic functions
    would have been easy, it would been done already. In NMRG for
    example, which had plenty of time to think about it! So an
    architecture as a starting point is not the right approach.
    5. A WG can always be re-chartered in future phases

    These are the reasons why Joel and I asked the BoF chairs to lead a
    charter discussion, focusing on only 2 use cases


>
> Notably, adoption of a solution (discovery+negotiation protocol) before adoption of use cases seems like putting cart before the horse.
Valid point.

Regards, Benoit
>
> It is not also clear to me how well the suitability of the solution has been evaluated. For implementation of some autonomic, distributed algorithms, point-to-point negotiation protocol such as the suggested solution is far from optimal. In case of homenet, we moved from hierarchical DHCPv6 PD (point-to-point hierarchy) to a distributed algorithm (draft-ietf-homenet-prefix-assignment*) which was result of over two years of draft updates, academic proving of correctness etc.
>
> Also, while dropping homenet from list of target things is _a_ way to solve the conflict that we already have autonomic solution for that particular problem which works (it was mentioned there before in e.g. IETF 90 not-quite-WG-forming BoF), even better would be to have a general solution that _also_ works in a homenet. Especially as IoT is just specialized type of homenet, I assume, although it is covered only by one mention in the whole charter (and the rest does not seem very IoT oriented).
>
> Looking at the solutions, from homenet developer / draft writer point of view, I would welcome a general trust bootstrapping framework. I am not convinced by the current solution draft for that (it assumes too many components for a home network case at least). A lot of the other things seem somewhat enterprise-y (control plane with IPsec, own routing protocol and ULAs? Not in IoT device at least, nor probably in constrained homenet router), or just unsuitable, such as the negotiation protocol that does not seem like a good fit for distributed decision making which is usually the key thing in autonomic networking.
>
> Cheers,
>
> -Markus
>
> .
>


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 01/10/2014 18:27, Markus Stenberg
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:CD1269E0-96B5-4A1A-8C1C-93DAB44068D4@iki.fi"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">On 1.10.2014, at 16.20, Benoit Claise <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bclaise@cisco.com">&lt;bclaise@cisco.com&gt;</a> wrote:
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">Based on the previous UCAN BoF, we are considering having an ANIMA WG: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach
This is now a proposed charter, under consideration by the IESG.
This is your chance to provide feedback on <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/anima/charter/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/anima/charter/</a>
Note also that a BoF has been requested, just in case.
Since HOMENET was mentioned during the UCAN BoF, I thought of double-checking with you guys.
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
TL;DR: Please either add homenet (and solutions already in the WG) to the WG goals, or drop IoT too and just focus on enterprise.

Looking at the milestones, I am very curious about lack of requirements or architecture work before promoting solutions and even WGLCing them. </pre>
    </blockquote>
    As mentioned in
    <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00246.html">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00246.html</a><br>
    <blockquote><font color="#000000">A few observations, to start with:<br>
        1. Autonomic Networking could be a huge explanatory field. <br>
        2. From the BoF, we heard (among other points): <span
          lang="EN-US"><br>
          &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; There is interest but focus ... focus ... focus on things
          that could be done quickly<br>
          3. The IESG has also been realizing that the process of
          problem statement/use cases/requirements/architecture/protocol
          takes way too long for the industry.<br>
          4. </span><span lang="EN-US"><span lang="EN-US">If a great
            architecture document to rule all autonomic functions would
            have been easy, it would been done already. In NMRG for
            example, which had plenty of time to think about it! So an
            architecture as a starting point is not the right approach.<br>
            5. A WG can always be re-chartered in future phases<br>
          </span><br>
          These are the reasons why Joel and I asked the BoF chairs to
          lead a charter discussion, focusing on only 2 use cases</span></font></blockquote>
    <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:CD1269E0-96B5-4A1A-8C1C-93DAB44068D4@iki.fi"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">

Notably, adoption of a solution (discovery+negotiation protocol) before adoption of use cases seems like putting cart before the horse.</pre>
    </blockquote>
    Valid point.<br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit<br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:CD1269E0-96B5-4A1A-8C1C-93DAB44068D4@iki.fi"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">

It is not also clear to me how well the suitability of the solution has been evaluated. For implementation of some autonomic, distributed algorithms, point-to-point negotiation protocol such as the suggested solution is far from optimal. In case of homenet, we moved from hierarchical DHCPv6 PD (point-to-point hierarchy) to a distributed algorithm (draft-ietf-homenet-prefix-assignment*) which was result of over two years of draft updates, academic proving of correctness etc. 

Also, while dropping homenet from list of target things is _a_ way to solve the conflict that we already have autonomic solution for that particular problem which works (it was mentioned there before in e.g. IETF 90 not-quite-WG-forming BoF), even better would be to have a general solution that _also_ works in a homenet. Especially as IoT is just specialized type of homenet, I assume, although it is covered only by one mention in the whole charter (and the rest does not seem very IoT oriented).

Looking at the solutions, from homenet developer / draft writer point of view, I would welcome a general trust bootstrapping framework. I am not convinced by the current solution draft for that (it assumes too many components for a home network case at least). A lot of the other things seem somewhat enterprise-y (control plane with IPsec, own routing protocol and ULAs? Not in IoT device at least, nor probably in constrained homenet router), or just unsuitable, such as the negotiation protocol that does not seem like a good fit for distributed decision making which is usually the key thing in autonomic networking. 

Cheers,

-Markus

.

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2014 14:23:06 +0200
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Dear Benoit, all,

The conclusions of the zeroconf WG are (based on 
http://www.ietf.org/wg/concluded/zeroconf.html):

  * The ZEROCONF WG could not come to a consensus regarding these
    requirements. A ZEROCONF requirements document will not be published
    by this working group.

  * This WG will produce one protocol specification, describing
    automatic generation and assignment of link-local IPv4 addresses in
    environments lacking host configuration (static or using DHCP). The
    document will describe existing practice as well as define
    recommendations for future implementations.

I assume the feedback targets the first bullet point, but how shall we 
interpret that:
-a simple "warning" that the process is not easy and might "fail".
-if someone involved in the zeroconf WG could recollect the technical 
issues that were blocking at that time (or why the process ended this 
way), it would be much helpful.

Thanks, best regards, Laurent.




On 02/10/2014 10:28, Benoit Claise wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> Some feedback received from the IESG
>
>     If unmanaged networks are in scope, make sure the proponents are fully
>     aware of the outcome of the zeroconf WG.
>
> Regards, Benoit
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima

-- 

Bien cordialement, Best regards,

*Laurent Ciavaglia*

Advanced Internet Research

Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

phone: +33 160 402 636

email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 
<mailto:laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>

linkedin: laurentciavaglia <http://fr.linkedin.com/in/laurentciavaglia/>

address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France


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    <font face="Courier New">Dear Benoit, all,<br>
      <br>
      The conclusions of the zeroconf WG are (based on
      <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ietf.org/wg/concluded/zeroconf.html">http://www.ietf.org/wg/concluded/zeroconf.html</a>):<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <ul>
      <li><font face="Courier New">The ZEROCONF WG could not come to a
          consensus regarding these requirements. A ZEROCONF
          requirements document will not be published by this working
          group.<br>
          <br>
        </font></li>
      <li><font face="Courier New">This WG will produce one protocol
          specification, describing automatic generation and assignment
          of link-local IPv4 addresses in environments lacking host
          configuration (static or using DHCP). The document will
          describe existing practice as well as define recommendations
          for future implementations.</font></li>
    </ul>
    <font face="Courier New">I assume the feedback targets the first
      bullet point, but how shall we interpret that:<br>
      -a simple "warning" that the process is not easy and might "fail".
      <br>
      -if someone involved in the zeroconf WG could recollect the
      technical issues that were blocking at that time (or why the
      process ended this way), it would be much helpful.<br>
      <br>
      Thanks, best regards, Laurent.<br>
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 02/10/2014 10:28, Benoit Claise
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:542D0CBE.40608@cisco.com" type="cite">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
        charset=windows-1252">
      Dear all,<br>
      <br>
      Some feedback received from the IESG<br>
      <blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">If unmanaged networks are in scope, make sure the proponents are fully
aware of the outcome of the zeroconf WG.</pre>
      </blockquote>
      Regards, Benoit<br>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a>
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From nobody Thu Oct  2 05:49:48 2014
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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: Ted Lemon <ted.lemon@nominum.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-09: (with BLOCK)
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-09: (with BLOCK)
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My personal goal is that what we do in ANIMA is fully compatible with and i=
deally used in homenet. It would feel wrong to me to have an infrastructure=
 that doesn't work in a homenet.=20

The security bootstrap is a good example of what we can achieve, with reaso=
nable effort. To me, address management is a *use case* for the ANIMA work.=
 Actually, we ought to be able to map *any* distributed address management =
method on top of the autonomic infrastructure that we're trying to create i=
n ANIMA.=20

We should also look to use HNCP in ANIMA, for sure (and the charter allows =
that!). But according to my intro statement, what ANIMA does would have to =
work across all architectures. We need to look more closely at this, and se=
e whether 1) HNCP works as is , or 2) we can create an HNCP++ that can scal=
e to SP/Ent, or 3) we need a different approach in ANIMA. As long as we do =
proper due diligence we should be able to settle on the best of those 3 opt=
ions.=20

So, personally I think we can work out a charter that resolves those confli=
cts, step by step.=20

Michael

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ted Lemon
> Sent: 02 October 2014 13:38
> To: The IESG
> Cc: anima@ietf.org
> Subject: [Anima] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-09: (with
> BLOCK)
>=20
> Ted Lemon has entered the following ballot position for
> charter-ietf-anima-00-09: Block
>=20
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all ema=
il
> addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introdu=
ctory
> paragraph, however.)
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> BLOCK:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>=20
> The following exchange between Mark and Brian illustrates what I want out
> of a BoF or External Review discussion:
>=20
> Mark:
>=20
> [...]
>=20
> In any case, It's not hard to extrapolate from here that in a year's time=
 or so,
> if we continue on the current trajectory, homenet will have come up with
> its own non-anima secure bootstrapping, and anima will have come up with
> its own non-homenet distributed IPv6 prefix configuration.
>=20
> Brian:
>=20
> Which we should try to coordinate, since I see no reason in theory why
> there can't be common underlying mechanisms between enterprise, carrier
> and SOHO. But I don't want to hear in 2 years time that homenet is stuck
> because anima hasn't met its milestones.
>=20
> Ted:
>=20
> Right now Homenet has a solution for the distributed configuration proble=
m
> with a spec and at least one WIP implementation, and is working
> seriously on the mutual authentication problem.   There may be some
> synergy between what Homenet is trying to do and what ANIMA is trying to
> do.   If there is, it would be a big win to coordinate the two groups'
> activities.   It may also be that there is no synergy, and the efforts
> are really effectively independent.
>=20
> Before the working group is chartered, I would like to see some clarity
> reached about this.   If there is synergy, I'd like there to be some
> clear agreement about how to move forward so that ANIMA can achieve its
> goals and Homenet can achieve its goals without either creating an intero=
p
> problem or stalling.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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On 01/10/2014 21:52, Adrian Farrel wrote:
> Adrian Farrel has entered the following ballot position for
> charter-ietf-anima-00-09: No Objection
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I have no objection to having a go at this work, although I really worry
> that scope needs to be very tightly screwed down and enforced to stop
> this going off the rails.
>
> The charter text here is hugely long. Does it need so many words to scope
> what the working group is going to do?
It seems like the charter text will change anyway. So we'll try to take 
this into consideration
> The general problem space
> description reads more like a BoF proposal, and I worry that more words
> means more loopholes (or rat holes) for the introduction of work that is
> out of the principal focus.
>
> I'm sure that good discussions have led to the list of four areas of self
> management. I do worry that these may be three too many to achieve any
> progress. Maybe it would be better to walk before we run?
Reviewing the wording:

    The ANIMA working group will cover the four areas of self-management:
    configuration, protection, healing and optimization, and aims to be equally
    applicable to the complete network (functions) lifecycle (e.g. installation,
    commissioning, operating, etc).

Actually, autonomic networking is composed of "the four areas of 
self-management", but the WG doesn't not cover all four areas.
So I would say: good catch Adrian.

Regards, Benoit
>
> But I won't Block this charter for any of this. Just ask the interest
> parties to think hard.
>
>
> .
>


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 01/10/2014 21:52, Adrian Farrel
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:20141001195249.14863.29763.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Adrian Farrel has entered the following ballot position for
charter-ietf-anima-00-09: No Objection

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)



The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/</a>



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I have no objection to having a go at this work, although I really worry
that scope needs to be very tightly screwed down and enforced to stop
this going off the rails.

The charter text here is hugely long. Does it need so many words to scope
what the working group is going to do? </pre>
    </blockquote>
    It seems like the charter text will change anyway. So we'll try to
    take this into consideration<br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:20141001195249.14863.29763.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">The general problem space
description reads more like a BoF proposal, and I worry that more words
means more loopholes (or rat holes) for the introduction of work that is
out of the principal focus.

I'm sure that good discussions have led to the list of four areas of self
management. I do worry that these may be three too many to achieve any
progress. Maybe it would be better to walk before we run?</pre>
    </blockquote>
    Reviewing the wording:<br>
    <blockquote>
      <pre>The ANIMA working group will cover the four areas of self-management:
configuration, protection, healing and optimization, and aims to be equally
applicable to the complete network (functions) lifecycle (e.g. installation,
commissioning, operating, etc).</pre>
    </blockquote>
    Actually, autonomic networking is composed of "the four areas of
    self-management", but the WG doesn't not cover all four areas.<br>
    So I would say: good catch Adrian.<br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit<br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:20141001195249.14863.29763.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">

But I won't Block this charter for any of this. Just ask the interest
parties to think hard.


.

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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--------------070504030702070306000408--


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Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2014 14:57:15 +0200
From: Laurent Ciavaglia <Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>
Organization: Alcatel-Lucent Bell Labs France
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To: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, Markus Stenberg <markus.stenberg@iki.fi>
References: <542BFFAE.1080105@cisco.com> <CD1269E0-96B5-4A1A-8C1C-93DAB44068D4@iki.fi> <542D422F.1090302@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] Homenet feedback on the ANIMA charter
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Dear Benoit, Markus, all,

On 02/10/2014 14:16, Benoit Claise wrote:
> On 01/10/2014 18:27, Markus Stenberg wrote:
>
>> Notably, adoption of a solution (discovery+negotiation protocol) before adoption of use cases seems like putting cart before the horse.
> Valid point.
>
> Regards, Benoit

Indeed a valid point, however before concluding here, some insights 
might help:
     -OPS ADs gave guidance to focus on (applicability on) 2 use cases only.
     -The solution adoption milestone shall read as _applicability_ of 
the protocols onto the two proposed/elected use cases (the milestone 
should be rewritten in that sense for more clarity).
     -The WG aims at developing protocols reusable _among __multiple_ 
use cases.
     -An initial step of the WG should be to extract, from these 
multiple use cases, the boundaries / problems these protocols have to 
solve.


HTH, best regards, Laurent.


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    Dear Benoit, Markus, all,<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 02/10/2014 14:16, Benoit Claise
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:542D422F.1090302@cisco.com" type="cite">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
        charset=windows-1252">
      <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 01/10/2014 18:27, Markus Stenberg
        wrote:<br>
      </div>
      <br>
      <blockquote cite="mid:CD1269E0-96B5-4A1A-8C1C-93DAB44068D4@iki.fi"
        type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">Notably, adoption of a solution (discovery+negotiation protocol) before adoption of use cases seems like putting cart before the horse.</pre>
      </blockquote>
      Valid point.<br>
      <br>
      Regards, Benoit</blockquote>
    <br>
    Indeed a valid point, however before concluding here, some insights
    might help:<br>
        -OPS ADs gave guidance to focus on (applicability on) 2 use
    cases only.<br>
        -The solution adoption milestone shall read as <u>applicability</u>
    of the protocols onto the two proposed/elected use cases (the
    milestone should be rewritten in that sense for more clarity). <br>
        -The WG aims at developing protocols reusable <u>among </u><u>multiple</u>
    use cases.
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        -An initial step of the WG should be to extract, from these
    multiple use cases, the boundaries / problems these protocols have
    to solve. <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    HTH, best regards, Laurent.<br>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------060709060604050702030808--


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Brian Haberman has entered the following ballot position for
charter-ietf-anima-00-09: No Objection

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
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The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I am fine with this going for external review given that I expect that
review to be rather verbose. With the potential overlap between this work
and other WGs (e.g., homenet) and the history of (auto | zero)conf work
in the IETF, I will be interested to see how that discussion plays out.



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>
>     Certainly, when the time comes. I'm personally thinking that one
>     of the
>     first things the future WG chairs should do is ask for a security
>     advisor, precisely because of the risks of overlap.
>
> Great, thanks.  I'd hope that there would be several people interested 
> since there may be obvious connections between the efforts.
That's a good idea.

Regards, Benoit
>
>     Rgds,
>        Brian
>
>
>
>
> -- 
>
> Best regards,
> Kathleen


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    <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAHbuEH66o-zNLNyvDUg8LYB5tHNb7vvbMRLHBNqobaS4X1yGdQ@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div class="gmail_extra">
          <div class="gmail_quote">
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span
                class="">
                <br>
              </span>Certainly, when the time comes. I'm personally
              thinking that one of the<br>
              first things the future WG chairs should do is ask for a
              security<br>
              advisor, precisely because of the risks of overlap.<br>
              <br>
            </blockquote>
            <div>Great, thanks.Â  I'd hope that there would be several
              people interested since there may be obvious connections
              between the efforts. <br>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    That's a good idea.<br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAHbuEH66o-zNLNyvDUg8LYB5tHNb7vvbMRLHBNqobaS4X1yGdQ@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div class="gmail_extra">
          <div class="gmail_quote">
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
              Rgds,<br>
              Â  Â Brian<br>
            </blockquote>
          </div>
          <br>
          <br clear="all">
          <div><br>
          </div>
          -- <br>
          <div dir="ltr"><br>
            <div>Best regards,</div>
            <div>Kathleen</div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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--------------050606050605070102020005--


From nobody Thu Oct  2 06:18:43 2014
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Adrian Farrel's No Objection on charter-ietf-anima-00-09: (with COMMENT)
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Dear Benoit , Adrian, all,

On 02/10/2014 14:54, Benoit Claise wrote:
> On 01/10/2014 21:52, Adrian Farrel wrote:
>> I'm sure that good discussions have led to the list of four areas of self
>> management. I do worry that these may be three too many to achieve any
>> progress. Maybe it would be better to walk before we run?
> Reviewing the wording:
>
>     The ANIMA working group will cover the four areas of self-management:
>     configuration, protection, healing and optimization, and aims to be equally
>     applicable to the complete network (functions) lifecycle (e.g. installation,
>     commissioning, operating, etc).
>
> Actually, autonomic networking is composed of "the four areas of 
> self-management", but the WG doesn't not cover all four areas.
> So I would say: good catch Adrian.
>
> Regards, Benoit

I am not sure to understand... if not the four areas, what is the 
baseline of the WG?
If the scope is one out of the four, then the WG shall be renamed and 
clearly refocused on problems of this specific area.

Considering the 4 areas as the basis provides the key advantages of:
     -attracting a large enough community / community's interests to 
contribute to this group.
     -identify out of a larger problem space the requirements / 
boundaries of the common autonomic networking components, and to ensure 
in return a certain level of re-usability in the multiple and diverse 
use cases/areas.

Best regards, Laurent.



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    Dear Benoit , Adrian, all,<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 02/10/2014 14:54, Benoit Claise
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:542D4B09.50600@cisco.com" type="cite">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
        charset=windows-1252">
      <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 01/10/2014 21:52, Adrian Farrel
        wrote:<br>
      </div>
      <blockquote
        cite="mid:20141001195249.14863.29763.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com"
        type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">I'm sure that good discussions have led to the list of four areas of self
management. I do worry that these may be three too many to achieve any
progress. Maybe it would be better to walk before we run?</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <blockquote
        cite="mid:20141001195249.14863.29763.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com"
        type="cite"> </blockquote>
      Reviewing the wording:<br>
      <blockquote>
        <pre>The ANIMA working group will cover the four areas of self-management:
configuration, protection, healing and optimization, and aims to be equally
applicable to the complete network (functions) lifecycle (e.g. installation,
commissioning, operating, etc).</pre>
      </blockquote>
      Actually, autonomic networking is composed of "the four areas of
      self-management", but the WG doesn't not cover all four areas.<br>
      So I would say: good catch Adrian.<br>
      <br>
      Regards, Benoit</blockquote>
    <br>
    I am not sure to understand... if not the four areas, what is the
    baseline of the WG?<br>
    If the scope is one out of the four, then the WG shall be renamed
    and clearly refocused on problems of this specific area.<br>
    <br>
    Considering the 4 areas as the basis provides the key advantages of:<br>
        -attracting a large enough community / community's interests to
    contribute to this group.<br>
        -identify out of a larger problem space the requirements /
    boundaries of the common autonomic networking components, and to
    ensure in return a certain level of re-usability in the multiple and
    diverse use cases/areas.<br>
    <br>
    Best regards, Laurent.<br>
    <br>
     <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------070003020804080901050401--


From nobody Thu Oct  2 06:19:51 2014
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-09: (with BLOCK)
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On 02/10/14 13:49, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
> My personal goal is that what we do in ANIMA is fully compatible with
> and ideally used in homenet. It would feel wrong to me to have an
> infrastructure that doesn't work in a homenet.
> 
> The security bootstrap is a good example of what we can achieve, with
> reasonable effort.

FWIW, it is not clear to me that the reasonable requirements
for provisioning device security information (or bootstrapping
if we wanted to call it that) are the same.

In enterprise environments we see fewer larger vendors of devices.
In the home where we additionally have a large range of vendors
many of whom are tiny and leverage a lot of OSS and who could
perhaps not take part in the kind of provisioning infrastructure
that is quite reasonable for enterprises and their vendors.

I do think both want to end up in the same state, where devices
are authorised for connection to the network and where there is
some keying material usable for security, but I'd be surprised
if one approach to getting there worked the same way for both
homes and enterprises.

S.


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Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2014 15:24:08 +0200
From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Adrian Farrel's No Objection on charter-ietf-anima-00-09: (with COMMENT)
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On 02/10/2014 15:18, Laurent Ciavaglia wrote:
> Dear Benoit , Adrian, all,
>
> On 02/10/2014 14:54, Benoit Claise wrote:
>> On 01/10/2014 21:52, Adrian Farrel wrote:
>>> I'm sure that good discussions have led to the list of four areas of self
>>> management. I do worry that these may be three too many to achieve any
>>> progress. Maybe it would be better to walk before we run?
>> Reviewing the wording:
>>
>>     The ANIMA working group will cover the four areas of self-management:
>>     configuration, protection, healing and optimization, and aims to be equally
>>     applicable to the complete network (functions) lifecycle (e.g. installation,
>>     commissioning, operating, etc).
>>
>> Actually, autonomic networking is composed of "the four areas of 
>> self-management", but the WG doesn't not cover all four areas.
>> So I would say: good catch Adrian.
>>
>> Regards, Benoit
>
> I am not sure to understand... if not the four areas, what is the 
> baseline of the WG?
The baseline of the WG is autonomic networking, for sure.
But do the WG deal with self-healing deliveries, as an example. Not at 
this point.
If I understand correctly, Adrian's point is about "The ANIMA working 
group will _cover four areas_"

Regards, Benoit
> If the scope is one out of the four, then the WG shall be renamed and 
> clearly refocused on problems of this specific area.
>
> Considering the 4 areas as the basis provides the key advantages of:
>     -attracting a large enough community / community's interests to 
> contribute to this group.
>     -identify out of a larger problem space the requirements / 
> boundaries of the common autonomic networking components, and to 
> ensure in return a certain level of re-usability in the multiple and 
> diverse use cases/areas.
>
> Best regards, Laurent.
>
>


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      http-equiv="Content-Type">
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  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 02/10/2014 15:18, Laurent Ciavaglia
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:542D50A8.7050603@alcatel-lucent.com"
      type="cite">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
        charset=windows-1252">
      Dear Benoit , Adrian, all,<br>
      <br>
      <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 02/10/2014 14:54, Benoit Claise
        wrote:<br>
      </div>
      <blockquote cite="mid:542D4B09.50600@cisco.com" type="cite">
        <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 01/10/2014 21:52, Adrian Farrel
          wrote:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote
          cite="mid:20141001195249.14863.29763.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com"
          type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">I'm sure that good discussions have led to the list of four areas of self
management. I do worry that these may be three too many to achieve any
progress. Maybe it would be better to walk before we run?</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <blockquote
          cite="mid:20141001195249.14863.29763.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com"
          type="cite"> </blockquote>
        Reviewing the wording:<br>
        <blockquote>
          <pre>The ANIMA working group will cover the four areas of self-management:
configuration, protection, healing and optimization, and aims to be equally
applicable to the complete network (functions) lifecycle (e.g. installation,
commissioning, operating, etc).</pre>
        </blockquote>
        Actually, autonomic networking is composed of "the four areas of
        self-management", but the WG doesn't not cover all four areas.<br>
        So I would say: good catch Adrian.<br>
        <br>
        Regards, Benoit</blockquote>
      <br>
      I am not sure to understand... if not the four areas, what is the
      baseline of the WG?<br>
    </blockquote>
    The baseline of the WG is autonomic networking, for sure.<br>
    But do the WG deal with self-healing deliveries, as an example. Not
    at this point.<br>
    If I understand correctly, Adrian's point is about "The ANIMA
    working group will <u>cover four areas</u>"<br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit<br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:542D50A8.7050603@alcatel-lucent.com"
      type="cite"> If the scope is one out of the four, then the WG
      shall be renamed and clearly refocused on problems of this
      specific area.<br>
      <br>
      Considering the 4 areas as the basis provides the key advantages
      of:<br>
          -attracting a large enough community / community's interests
      to contribute to this group.<br>
          -identify out of a larger problem space the requirements /
      boundaries of the common autonomic networking components, and to
      ensure in return a certain level of re-usability in the multiple
      and diverse use cases/areas.<br>
      <br>
      Best regards, Laurent.<br>
      <br>
       <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------030905000906090001040405--


From nobody Thu Oct  2 06:54:23 2014
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From: "Leddy, John" <John_Leddy@cable.comcast.com>
To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>, Ted Lemon <ted.lemon@nominum.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
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My worry on this topic is that we are referring to =B3the Home=B2 and =B3th=
e
Enterprise=B2.
It isn=B9t that clear of a distinction.  This isn=B9t just a simple L2 flat
home vs. a Fortune 1000 enterprise.

The home is getting more complex and includes work from home; IOT, home
security, hot spots, cloud services, policies, discovery etc.
Large numbers of SMB=B9s look like more high end residential than they do
large enterprises.

It would be ideal to have a solution that spans the range of size and
complexity for both residential and enterprise.
Perhaps enabling features/capabilities where required.

Also, as far as IPV6 connectivity residential is probably ahead of
enterprises in adopting V6 centric architectures and services.
Residential doesn=B9t have much of a choice, it just happens.

2cents, John

On 10/2/14, 9:15 AM, "Stephen Farrell" <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:

>
>
>On 02/10/14 13:49, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>> My personal goal is that what we do in ANIMA is fully compatible with
>> and ideally used in homenet. It would feel wrong to me to have an
>> infrastructure that doesn't work in a homenet.
>>=20
>> The security bootstrap is a good example of what we can achieve, with
>> reasonable effort.
>
>FWIW, it is not clear to me that the reasonable requirements
>for provisioning device security information (or bootstrapping
>if we wanted to call it that) are the same.
>
>In enterprise environments we see fewer larger vendors of devices.
>In the home where we additionally have a large range of vendors
>many of whom are tiny and leverage a lot of OSS and who could
>perhaps not take part in the kind of provisioning infrastructure
>that is quite reasonable for enterprises and their vendors.
>
>I do think both want to end up in the same state, where devices
>are authorised for connection to the network and where there is
>some keying material usable for security, but I'd be surprised
>if one approach to getting there worked the same way for both
>homes and enterprises.
>
>S.
>
>_______________________________________________
>homenet mailing list
>homenet@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet
>


From nobody Thu Oct  2 07:19:12 2014
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Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/mq6ZRdfGf4iQm3gbMoqWh07a-cc
Cc: anima@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Anima] Adrian Farrel's No Objection on charter-ietf-anima-00-09: (with COMMENT)
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> If I understand correctly, Adrian's point is about "The
> ANIMA working group will cover four areas"
 
Yeah, that was my point. If the intention is to cover all four areas day one,
then this looks like a very wide scope. i wanted to make sure this was the
intention and that the work load and potential lack of focus has been discussed.
 
A
 
From: Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com] 
Sent: 02 October 2014 14:24
To: Laurent Ciavaglia; Adrian Farrel; The IESG
Cc: anima@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Anima] Adrian Farrel's No Objection on charter-ietf-anima-00-09:
(with COMMENT)
 
On 02/10/2014 15:18, Laurent Ciavaglia wrote:
Dear Benoit , Adrian, all,
On 02/10/2014 14:54, Benoit Claise wrote:
On 01/10/2014 21:52, Adrian Farrel wrote:
I'm sure that good discussions have led to the list of four areas of self
management. I do worry that these may be three too many to achieve any
progress. Maybe it would be better to walk before we run?
Reviewing the wording:
The ANIMA working group will cover the four areas of self-management:
configuration, protection, healing and optimization, and aims to be equally
applicable to the complete network (functions) lifecycle (e.g. installation,
commissioning, operating, etc).
Actually, autonomic networking is composed of "the four areas of
self-management", but the WG doesn't not cover all four areas.
So I would say: good catch Adrian.

Regards, Benoit

I am not sure to understand... if not the four areas, what is the baseline of
the WG?
The baseline of the WG is autonomic networking, for sure.
But do the WG deal with self-healing deliveries, as an example. Not at this
point.
If I understand correctly, Adrian's point is about "The ANIMA working group will
cover four areas"

Regards, Benoit


If the scope is one out of the four, then the WG shall be renamed and clearly
refocused on problems of this specific area.

Considering the 4 areas as the basis provides the key advantages of:
    -attracting a large enough community / community's interests to contribute
to this group.
    -identify out of a larger problem space the requirements / boundaries of the
common autonomic networking components, and to ensure in return a certain level
of re-usability in the multiple and diverse use cases/areas.

Best regards, Laurent.

 
 

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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=3Dwhite =
lang=3DEN-GB link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple =
style=3D'tab-interval:36.0pt'><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>&gt; If I understand =
correctly, Adrian's point is about &quot;The<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>&gt; ANIMA working group will =
cover four areas&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>Yeah, that was my point. If =
the intention is to cover all four areas day one, then this looks like a =
very wide scope. i wanted to make sure this was the intention and that =
the work load and potential lack of focus has been =
discussed.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>A<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-fareast-f=
ont-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:windowtext;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>From:</span></b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-fareast-f=
ont-family:"Times New Roman";color:windowtext;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'> =
Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> 02 October =
2014 14:24<br><b>To:</b> Laurent Ciavaglia; Adrian Farrel; The =
IESG<br><b>Cc:</b> anima@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Anima] Adrian =
Farrel's No Objection on charter-ietf-anima-00-09: (with =
COMMENT)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>On 02/10/2014 15:18, =
Laurent Ciavaglia wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>Dear Benoit , =
Adrian, all,<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>On 02/10/2014 14:54, =
Benoit Claise wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New =
Roman"'>On 01/10/2014 21:52, Adrian Farrel =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>I'm sure that good =
discussions have led to the list of four areas of =
self<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>management. I do worry that these may be three =
too many to achieve any<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>progress. Maybe it would be =
better to walk before we run?<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New =
Roman"'>Reviewing the wording:<o:p></o:p></span></p><pre>The ANIMA =
working group will cover the four areas of =
self-management:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>configuration, protection, healing =
and optimization, and aims to be equally<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>applicable =
to the complete network (functions) lifecycle (e.g. =
installation,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>commissioning, operating, =
etc).<o:p></o:p></pre><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>Actually, autonomic =
networking is composed of &quot;the four areas of self-management&quot;, =
but the WG doesn't not cover all four areas.<br>So I would say: good =
catch Adrian.<br><br>Regards, =
Benoit<o:p></o:p></span></p></blockquote><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><br>I am not sure to =
understand... if not the four areas, what is the baseline of the =
WG?<o:p></o:p></span></p></blockquote><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>The baseline of the =
WG is autonomic networking, for sure.<br>But do the WG deal with =
self-healing deliveries, as an example. Not at this point.<br>If I =
understand correctly, Adrian's point is about &quot;The ANIMA working =
group will <u>cover four areas</u>&quot;<br><br>Regards, Benoit<br =
style=3D'mso-special-character:line-break'><![if =
!supportLineBreakNewLine]><br =
style=3D'mso-special-character:line-break'><![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New =
Roman"'>If the scope is one out of the four, then the WG shall be =
renamed and clearly refocused on problems of this specific =
area.<br><br>Considering the 4 areas as the basis provides the key =
advantages of:<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -attracting a large enough =
community / community's interests to contribute to this =
group.<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -identify out of a larger problem space the =
requirements / boundaries of the common autonomic networking components, =
and to ensure in return a certain level of re-usability in the multiple =
and diverse use cases/areas.<br><br>Best regards, =
Laurent.<br><br>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New =
Roman"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div></div></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_0711_01CFDE54.2AB7C720--


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Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2014 07:22:40 -0700
From: Toerless Eckert <eckert@cisco.com>
To: "Leddy, John" <John_Leddy@cable.comcast.com>
Message-ID: <20141002142240.GA32492@cisco.com>
References: <20141002113735.6068.22745.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C59B2B@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <542D4FE3.2010607@cs.tcd.ie> <D052CE2F.667F1%John_Leddy@cable.comcast.com>
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Cc: "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" <mbehring@cisco.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "homenet@ietf.org" <homenet@ietf.org>, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, Ted Lemon <ted.lemon@nominum.com>
Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-09: (with BLOCK)
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Fully agreed. But does this imply that we will make most progress by
blocking out a working group that is actively chartered to look at
the problems in the market segments Homenet is not addressing ?

If the BLOCK is meant to suggest a charter improvements for anima to
better define our mutual desire to share whatever is applicable and
not reinvent unnecessarily, then where is the proposed charter text change ? 

Cheers
    Toerless

P.S.: Also, if i may throw in some random tidbit of technology thoughts:

I love home networks (and the WG for it), because it is the best place
for IPv6 to eliminate IPv4 and start creating fresh, better IP
network. I have a lot of doubt that we are anywhere close to going that
route especially in larger enterprises, so the address management for
IPv4 in those networks is going to be a crucial requirement where i don't
think homenet could (or should) be any big help. And i am not sure if i would
want to hold my breath for a lot of IPv4 adress complexity reduction in
IoT either. But certainly autonomic processes cold rather help than hurt
in that matter.


On Thu, Oct 02, 2014 at 01:50:13PM +0000, Leddy, John wrote:
> My worry on this topic is that we are referring to ³the Home² and ³the
> Enterprise².
> It isn¹t that clear of a distinction.  This isn¹t just a simple L2 flat
> home vs. a Fortune 1000 enterprise.
> 
> The home is getting more complex and includes work from home; IOT, home
> security, hot spots, cloud services, policies, discovery etc.
> Large numbers of SMB¹s look like more high end residential than they do
> large enterprises.
> 
> It would be ideal to have a solution that spans the range of size and
> complexity for both residential and enterprise.
> Perhaps enabling features/capabilities where required.
> 
> Also, as far as IPV6 connectivity residential is probably ahead of
> enterprises in adopting V6 centric architectures and services.
> Residential doesn¹t have much of a choice, it just happens.
> 
> 2cents, John
> 
> On 10/2/14, 9:15 AM, "Stephen Farrell" <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> >On 02/10/14 13:49, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
> >> My personal goal is that what we do in ANIMA is fully compatible with
> >> and ideally used in homenet. It would feel wrong to me to have an
> >> infrastructure that doesn't work in a homenet.
> >> 
> >> The security bootstrap is a good example of what we can achieve, with
> >> reasonable effort.
> >
> >FWIW, it is not clear to me that the reasonable requirements
> >for provisioning device security information (or bootstrapping
> >if we wanted to call it that) are the same.
> >
> >In enterprise environments we see fewer larger vendors of devices.
> >In the home where we additionally have a large range of vendors
> >many of whom are tiny and leverage a lot of OSS and who could
> >perhaps not take part in the kind of provisioning infrastructure
> >that is quite reasonable for enterprises and their vendors.
> >
> >I do think both want to end up in the same state, where devices
> >are authorised for connection to the network and where there is
> >some keying material usable for security, but I'd be surprised
> >if one approach to getting there worked the same way for both
> >homes and enterprises.
> >
> >S.
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >homenet mailing list
> >homenet@ietf.org
> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima

-- 
---
Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com


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Spencer Dawkins has entered the following ballot position for
charter-ietf-anima-00-09: No Objection

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm a No Objection on going for external review, but I have thoughts that
heavily overlap Adrian, Pete and Ted.



From nobody Thu Oct  2 07:41:48 2014
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From: Toerless Eckert <eckert@cisco.com>
To: "Leddy, John" <John_Leddy@cable.comcast.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-09: (with BLOCK)
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Fully agreed. But does this imply that we will make most progress by
blocking out a working group that is actively chartered to look at
the problems in the market segments Homenet is not addressing ?

If the BLOCK is meant to suggest a charter improvements for anima to
better define our mutual desire to share whatever is applicable and
not reinvent unnecessarily, then where is the proposed charter text change ? 

Cheers
    Toerless

P.S.: Also, if i may throw in some random tidbit of technology thoughts:

I love home networks (and the WG for it), because it is the best place
for IPv6 to eliminate IPv4 and start creating fresh, better IP
network. I have a lot of doubt that we are anywhere close to going that
route especially in larger enterprises, so the address management for
IPv4 in those networks is going to be a crucial requirement where i don't
think homenet could (or should) be any big help. And i am not sure if i would
want to hold my breath for a lot of IPv4 adress complexity reduction in
IoT either. But certainly autonomic processes cold rather help than hurt
in that matter.


On Thu, Oct 02, 2014 at 01:50:13PM +0000, Leddy, John wrote:
> My worry on this topic is that we are referring to ³the Home² and ³the
> Enterprise².
> It isn¹t that clear of a distinction.  This isn¹t just a simple L2 flat
> home vs. a Fortune 1000 enterprise.
> 
> The home is getting more complex and includes work from home; IOT, home
> security, hot spots, cloud services, policies, discovery etc.
> Large numbers of SMB¹s look like more high end residential than they do
> large enterprises.
> 
> It would be ideal to have a solution that spans the range of size and
> complexity for both residential and enterprise.
> Perhaps enabling features/capabilities where required.
> 
> Also, as far as IPV6 connectivity residential is probably ahead of
> enterprises in adopting V6 centric architectures and services.
> Residential doesn¹t have much of a choice, it just happens.
> 
> 2cents, John
> 
> On 10/2/14, 9:15 AM, "Stephen Farrell" <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> >On 02/10/14 13:49, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
> >> My personal goal is that what we do in ANIMA is fully compatible with
> >> and ideally used in homenet. It would feel wrong to me to have an
> >> infrastructure that doesn't work in a homenet.
> >> 
> >> The security bootstrap is a good example of what we can achieve, with
> >> reasonable effort.
> >
> >FWIW, it is not clear to me that the reasonable requirements
> >for provisioning device security information (or bootstrapping
> >if we wanted to call it that) are the same.
> >
> >In enterprise environments we see fewer larger vendors of devices.
> >In the home where we additionally have a large range of vendors
> >many of whom are tiny and leverage a lot of OSS and who could
> >perhaps not take part in the kind of provisioning infrastructure
> >that is quite reasonable for enterprises and their vendors.
> >
> >I do think both want to end up in the same state, where devices
> >are authorised for connection to the network and where there is
> >some keying material usable for security, but I'd be surprised
> >if one approach to getting there worked the same way for both
> >homes and enterprises.
> >
> >S.
> >


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Stephen Farrell has entered the following ballot position for
charter-ietf-anima-00-09: No Objection

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------


It is not at all clear to me that the security/provisioning
model here would be suitable for home/small networks.
I trust that the WG will evaluate that as they adopt a
draft on that topic and perhaps consider addressing
that via some applicability statement on the method
followed here. I would also strongly encourage this WG
to co-ordinate with HOMENET on this topic. I suspect
that different solutions may be needed for the same
problem (device security information provisioning) in
those different spaces. But there may be value in 
attempting to also consider common pieces of what
may be two different overall solutions/approaches.



From nobody Thu Oct  2 08:12:59 2014
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On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 9:15 AM, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
wrote:

>
>
> On 02/10/14 13:49, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
> > My personal goal is that what we do in ANIMA is fully compatible with
> > and ideally used in homenet. It would feel wrong to me to have an
> > infrastructure that doesn't work in a homenet.
> >
> > The security bootstrap is a good example of what we can achieve, with
> > reasonable effort.
>
> FWIW, it is not clear to me that the reasonable requirements
> for provisioning device security information (or bootstrapping
> if we wanted to call it that) are the same.
>

This is where we would have overlap with SACM and I2NSF.  I've spoken in
Ops and Dan R has helped to try to recruit some folks to help in SACM.  It
would be good to not solve this in multiple places.  SACM and I2NSF are
de-conflicting what they cover.  Provisioning and assessing security
information is part of those efforts already, hence my questions on the
charter as well.

>
> In enterprise environments we see fewer larger vendors of devices.
> In the home where we additionally have a large range of vendors
> many of whom are tiny and leverage a lot of OSS and who could
> perhaps not take part in the kind of provisioning infrastructure
> that is quite reasonable for enterprises and their vendors.
>

There is a push in the vendor space for this type of automation and I'm all
for it, let's just coordinate on it so we don't wind up with too many ways
to do it.


>
> I do think both want to end up in the same state, where devices
> are authorised for connection to the network and where there is
> some keying material usable for security, but I'd be surprised
> if one approach to getting there worked the same way for both
> homes and enterprises.
>

I'd like to see this discusses more, but maybe it's not in this group?

Thanks,
Kathleen

>
> S.
>
>


-- 

Best regards,
Kathleen

--001a11c223b6a743840504720cdf
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 9:15 AM, Stephen Farrell <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie" target=3D"_blank">stephen.farre=
ll@cs.tcd.ie</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span =
class=3D""><br>
<br>
On 02/10/14 13:49, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:<br>
&gt; My personal goal is that what we do in ANIMA is fully compatible with<=
br>
&gt; and ideally used in homenet. It would feel wrong to me to have an<br>
&gt; infrastructure that doesn&#39;t work in a homenet.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The security bootstrap is a good example of what we can achieve, with<=
br>
&gt; reasonable effort.<br>
<br>
</span>FWIW, it is not clear to me that the reasonable requirements<br>
for provisioning device security information (or bootstrapping<br>
if we wanted to call it that) are the same.<br></blockquote><div><br></div>=
<div>This is where we would have overlap with SACM and I2NSF.=C2=A0 I&#39;v=
e spoken in Ops and Dan R has helped to try to recruit some folks to help i=
n SACM.=C2=A0 It would be good to not solve this in multiple places.=C2=A0 =
SACM and I2NSF are de-conflicting what they cover.=C2=A0 Provisioning and a=
ssessing security information is part of those efforts already, hence my qu=
estions on the charter as well.</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
In enterprise environments we see fewer larger vendors of devices.<br>
In the home where we additionally have a large range of vendors<br>
many of whom are tiny and leverage a lot of OSS and who could<br>
perhaps not take part in the kind of provisioning infrastructure<br>
that is quite reasonable for enterprises and their vendors.<br></blockquote=
><div><br></div><div>There is a push in the vendor space for this type of a=
utomation and I&#39;m all for it, let&#39;s just coordinate on it so we don=
&#39;t wind up with too many ways to do it.</div><div>=C2=A0<br></div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
I do think both want to end up in the same state, where devices<br>
are authorised for connection to the network and where there is<br>
some keying material usable for security, but I&#39;d be surprised<br>
if one approach to getting there worked the same way for both<br>
homes and enterprises.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I&#39;d like to =
see this discusses more, but maybe it&#39;s not in this group?</div><div><b=
r></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Kathleen=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex">
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
S.<br>
<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <b=
r><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Best regards,</div><div>Kathleen</div></div>
</div></div>

--001a11c223b6a743840504720cdf--


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Subject: [Anima] Ted Lemon's No Objection on charter-ietf-anima-00-09: (with COMMENT)
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Ted Lemon has entered the following ballot position for
charter-ietf-anima-00-09: No Objection

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)



The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm changing this to No Objection for the External Review, since I think
the real work needs to happen in a discussion between the Homenet people
and the ANIMA people, not between me and Benoit.   The reason I chose
BLOCK and not no objection with comment is the issue of whether to
resolve this in a BoF or in External Review discussions, but I think the
right thing to do is move forward with External Review and see what
happens, and we can revisit the BoF/Charter question after the results of
that discussion are in.

The following exchange between Mark and Brian illustrates what I want out
of a BoF or External Review discussion:

Mark:

[...]

In any case, It's not hard to extrapolate from here that in a year's time
or so, if we continue on the current trajectory, homenet will have come
up with its own non-anima secure bootstrapping, and anima will have come
up with its own non-homenet distributed IPv6 prefix configuration.  

Brian:

Which we should try to coordinate, since I see no reason in
theory why there can't be common underlying mechanisms between
enterprise, carrier and SOHO. But I don't want to hear in 2 years
time that homenet is stuck because anima hasn't met its milestones.

Ted:

Right now Homenet has a solution for the distributed configuration
problem with a spec and at least one WIP implementation, and is working
seriously on the mutual authentication problem.   There may be some
synergy between what Homenet is trying to do and what ANIMA is trying to
do.   If there is, it would be a big win to coordinate the two groups'
activities.   It may also be that there is no synergy, and the efforts
are really effectively independent.

Before the working group is chartered, I would like to see some clarity
reached about this.   If there is synergy, I'd like there to be some
clear agreement about how to move forward so that ANIMA can achieve its
goals and Homenet can achieve its goals without either creating an
interop problem or stalling.



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Sorry but this is not clear to me...

What is the issue (or proposed reformulation) of: "The ANIMA working 
group will cover the four areas of self-management: configuration, 
protection, healing and optimization, and aims to be equally applicable 
to the complete network (functions) lifecycle (e.g. installation, 
commissioning, operating, etc)."?

Is it a question of timing/phasing i.e. work first on area x (current 
charter) before addressing area y (rechartering)?
According to you, which are the first area(s) this WG is currently 
focused on?
How are the priorities set?
Is it not the decision of the IETF community to decide which area to 
contribute in the WG?

The very purpose of common AN components is to be re-usable across 
multiple/diverse use cases / across domains.

For the records, one of the proposed use cases (risk aware routing) is a 
self-healing feature; and the use case described in the charter 
"always-on, data plane independent connectivity" looks for me like 
having self-healing inside.

So for sure, there is no self-healing protocol in the charter, but the 
discovery, negotiation... functionalities the WG will develop should 
very well be applicable to self-healing use cases (among many others).

Thanks, best regards, Laurent.



On 02/10/2014 16:18, Adrian Farrel wrote:
>
> > If I understand correctly, Adrian's point is about "The
>
> > ANIMA working group will cover four areas"
>
> Yeah, that was my point. If the intention is to cover all four areas 
> day one, then this looks like a very wide scope. i wanted to make sure 
> this was the intention and that the work load and potential lack of 
> focus has been discussed.
>
> A
>
> *From:*Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com]
> *Sent:* 02 October 2014 14:24
> *To:* Laurent Ciavaglia; Adrian Farrel; The IESG
> *Cc:* anima@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Adrian Farrel's No Objection on 
> charter-ietf-anima-00-09: (with COMMENT)
>
> On 02/10/2014 15:18, Laurent Ciavaglia wrote:
>
>     Dear Benoit , Adrian, all,
>
>     On 02/10/2014 14:54, Benoit Claise wrote:
>
>         On 01/10/2014 21:52, Adrian Farrel wrote:
>
>             I'm sure that good discussions have led to the list of four areas of self
>
>             management. I do worry that these may be three too many to achieve any
>
>             progress. Maybe it would be better to walk before we run?
>
>         Reviewing the wording:
>
>         The ANIMA working group will cover the four areas of self-management:
>
>         configuration, protection, healing and optimization, and aims to be equally
>
>         applicable to the complete network (functions) lifecycle (e.g. installation,
>
>         commissioning, operating, etc).
>
>         Actually, autonomic networking is composed of "the four areas
>         of self-management", but the WG doesn't not cover all four areas.
>         So I would say: good catch Adrian.
>
>         Regards, Benoit
>
>
>     I am not sure to understand... if not the four areas, what is the
>     baseline of the WG?
>
> The baseline of the WG is autonomic networking, for sure.
> But do the WG deal with self-healing deliveries, as an example. Not at 
> this point.
> If I understand correctly, Adrian's point is about "The ANIMA working 
> group will _cover four areas_"
>
> Regards, Benoit
>
> If the scope is one out of the four, then the WG shall be renamed and 
> clearly refocused on problems of this specific area.
>
> Considering the 4 areas as the basis provides the key advantages of:
>     -attracting a large enough community / community's interests to 
> contribute to this group.
>     -identify out of a larger problem space the requirements / 
> boundaries of the common autonomic networking components, and to 
> ensure in return a certain level of re-usability in the multiple and 
> diverse use cases/areas.
>
> Best regards, Laurent.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima

-- 

Bien cordialement, Best regards,

*Laurent Ciavaglia*

Advanced Internet Research

Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

phone: +33 160 402 636

email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 
<mailto:laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>

linkedin: laurentciavaglia <http://fr.linkedin.com/in/laurentciavaglia/>

address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France


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    <font face="Courier New">Sorry but this is not clear to me</font>...<br>
    <br>
    What is the issue (or proposed reformulation) of: "The ANIMA working
    group will cover the four areas of self-management: configuration,
    protection, healing and optimization, and aims to be equally
    applicable to the complete network (functions) lifecycle (e.g.
    installation, commissioning, operating, etc)."?<br>
    <br>
    Is it a question of timing/phasing i.e. work first on area x
    (current charter) before addressing area y (rechartering)?<br>
    According to you, which are the first area(s) this WG is currently
    focused on?<br>
    How are the priorities set? <br>
    Is it not the decision of the IETF community to decide which area to
    contribute in the WG?<br>
    <br>
    The very purpose of common AN components is to be re-usable across
    multiple/diverse use cases / across domains.<br>
    <br>
    For the records, one of the proposed use cases (risk aware routing)
    is a self-healing feature; and the use case described in the charter
    "always-on, data plane independent connectivity" looks for me like
    having self-healing inside.<br>
    <br>
    So for sure, there is no self-healing protocol in the charter, but
    the discovery, negotiation... functionalities the WG will develop
    should very well be applicable to self-healing use cases (among many
    others).<br>
    <br>
    Thanks, best regards, Laurent.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 02/10/2014 16:18, Adrian Farrel
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
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            style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;mso-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times
            New Roman&quot;;color:#1F497D">&gt; If I understand
            correctly, Adrian's point is about "The<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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            style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;mso-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times
            New Roman&quot;;color:#1F497D">&gt; ANIMA working group will
            cover four areas"<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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            style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;mso-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times
            New Roman&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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            style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;mso-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times
            New Roman&quot;;color:#1F497D">Yeah, that was my point. If
            the intention is to cover all four areas day one, then this
            looks like a very wide scope. i wanted to make sure this was
            the intention and that the work load and potential lack of
            focus has been discussed.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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            style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;mso-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times
            New Roman&quot;;color:#1F497D">A<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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            style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;mso-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times
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              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
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                    New
                    Roman&quot;;color:windowtext;mso-ansi-language:EN-US"
                    lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
                  style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times
                  New
                  Roman&quot;;color:windowtext;mso-ansi-language:EN-US"
                  lang="EN-US"> Benoit Claise [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:bclaise@cisco.com">mailto:bclaise@cisco.com</a>]
                  <br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> 02 October 2014 14:24<br>
                  <b>To:</b> Laurent Ciavaglia; Adrian Farrel; The IESG<br>
                  <b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anima@ietf.org">anima@ietf.org</a><br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Anima] Adrian Farrel's No
                  Objection on charter-ietf-anima-00-09: (with COMMENT)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New
                Roman&quot;">On 02/10/2014 15:18, Laurent Ciavaglia
                wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
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              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                  style="mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New
                  Roman&quot;">On 02/10/2014 14:54, Benoit Claise wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                    style="mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New
                    Roman&quot;">On 01/10/2014 21:52, Adrian Farrel
                    wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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                <pre>I'm sure that good discussions have led to the list of four areas of self<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>management. I do worry that these may be three too many to achieve any<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>progress. Maybe it would be better to walk before we run?<o:p></o:p></pre>
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              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                  style="mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New
                  Roman&quot;">Reviewing the wording:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <pre>The ANIMA working group will cover the four areas of self-management:<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>configuration, protection, healing and optimization, and aims to be equally<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>applicable to the complete network (functions) lifecycle (e.g. installation,<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>commissioning, operating, etc).<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                  style="mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New
                  Roman&quot;">Actually, autonomic networking is
                  composed of "the four areas of self-management", but
                  the WG doesn't not cover all four areas.<br>
                  So I would say: good catch Adrian.<br>
                  <br>
                  Regards, Benoit<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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                I am not sure to understand... if not the four areas,
                what is the baseline of the WG?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
              style="mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New
              Roman&quot;">The baseline of the WG is autonomic
              networking, for sure.<br>
              But do the WG deal with self-healing deliveries, as an
              example. Not at this point.<br>
              If I understand correctly, Adrian's point is about "The
              ANIMA working group will <u>cover four areas</u>"<br>
              <br>
              Regards, Benoit<br
                style="mso-special-character:line-break">
              <!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]--><br
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          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
              style="mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New
              Roman&quot;">If the scope is one out of the four, then the
              WG shall be renamed and clearly refocused on problems of
              this specific area.<br>
              <br>
              Considering the 4 areas as the basis provides the key
              advantages of:<br>
                  -attracting a large enough community / community's
              interests to contribute to this group.<br>
                  -identify out of a larger problem space the
              requirements / boundaries of the common autonomic
              networking components, and to ensure in return a certain
              level of re-usability in the multiple and diverse use
              cases/areas.<br>
              <br>
              Best regards, Laurent.<br>
              <br>
               <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a>
</pre>
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            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
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Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2014 07:55:26 +1300
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Subject: [Anima] [Fwd: I-D Action: draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-02.txt]
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This update responds to all comments received recently.
There are quite a lot of changes.

Discussion of this draft should take place on nmrg@irtf.org please.

  Brian + co-authors

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: I-D Action: draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-02.txt
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2014 11:51:26 -0700
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
 This draft is a work item of the Network Management Research Group Working Group of the IETF.

        Title           : Gap Analysis for Autonomic Networking
        Authors         : Sheng Jiang
                          Brian Carpenter
                          Michael H. Behringer
	Filename        : draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-02.txt
	Pages           : 16
	Date            : 2014-10-02

Abstract:
   This document provides a problem statement and gap analysis for an
   IP-based autonomic network that is mainly based on distributed
   network devices.  The document provides a background by reviewing the
   current status of autonomic aspects of IP networks and the extent to
   which current network management depends on centralisation and human
   administrators.  Finally the document describes the general gaps
   between current network abilities and the ideal autonomic network
   concept.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-02

A diff from the previous version is available at:
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-02


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
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Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2014 07:58:34 +1300
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References: <542BFFAE.1080105@cisco.com> <CD1269E0-96B5-4A1A-8C1C-93DAB44068D4@iki.fi> <542C59B3.10700@gmail.com> <5F26857C-1C41-4D1F-AA4A-B7D9E947180F@townsley.net> <542CC380.1030600@gmail.com> <CAKD1Yr2aK8zzhJXTbbOf=kshQa8gpK4jeCCCn5Enzg-A6L3ZCA@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet]  Homenet feedback on the ANIMA charter
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On 02/10/2014 19:26, Lorenzo Colitti wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 12:16 PM, Brian E Carpenter <
> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>>> This use case is precisely what draft-ietf-homenet-prefix-assignment
>> does (which has roots all the way back to
>> draft-arkko-homenet-prefix-assignment-00 in October 2011). So to homenet,
>> this is a solved problem - with an algorithm that has been applied not just
>> to HNCP, but to OSPF and ISIS.
>>
>> Well, we have a bug in our short description, because the intention is to
>> support prefix assignment in a carrier scenario, which is different
>> in many ways.
> 
> 
> Really? Which ways?

That was the point of draft-jiang-auto-addr-management which was
briefly presented at the UCAN BOF.

    Brian



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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] Homenet feedback on the ANIMA charter
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--=-=-=
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:
    > Based on the previous UCAN BoF, we are considering having an ANIMA WG:
    > Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach
    > This is now a proposed charter, under consideration by the IESG.
    > This is your chance to provide feedback on
    > http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/anima/charter/

Thanks.

I have read the charter.
Thank you for trying to restrict it to something focused.
I think you have enough focus, but there still significant space for scope
creap.  Why not build this issue into the charter?

    Mar 2015 - recharter to refocus scope

[In reading it, I was reminded of the SNMP v2 security wars of 1995.  Can
we have enough security present in order to configure the system to have
security, was part of the underlying debate.  I think we can do it now.]

=2D-=20
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-




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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] Homenet feedback on the ANIMA charter
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--=-=-=


Markus Stenberg <markus.stenberg@iki.fi> wrote:
    >> Note also that a BoF has been requested, just in case.
    >> Since HOMENET was mentioned during the UCAN BoF, I thought of
    >>double-checking with you guys.

    > TL;DR: Please either add homenet (and solutions already in the WG) to
    > the WG goals, or drop IoT too and just focus on enterprise.

I see your point; if you think that much IoT will be in the home.

However, there are significant areas of IoT deployment into industrial
settings which have very different availability of human resources.

While in the home, there is perhaps an IoT : HUMAN ration of 1000:1,
which is to say that in an average home of 100 devices, there is barely
10% of a human available set them up, in industrial settings the ratio
could be even worse (10000:1?), but still that might leave a team of ten
trained humans available to create Intents.


--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] Homenet feedback on the ANIMA charter
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On 02/10/2014 21:20, Markus Stenberg wrote:
> On 1.10.2014, at 22.44, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>=
 wrote:
>> Personal comments on this:
>>
>> 1) One reason for not stating homenet as part of the scope is
>> that we do not want to interfere with the current progress in
>> homenet. Personally I think there is a lot to learn from
>> homenet, but as I just said to Pierre, we are too late to affect
>> homenet's choices. I will be delighted if the results can be
>> applied to homenets in future, of course.
>=20
> Well, it sounds as if you plan to WGLC your negotiation protocol probab=
ly around the time we WGLC HNCP (or sooner? who knows).

I have no idea. The homenet milestones haven't been updated for
2 years, but I would expect HNCP to be much sooner than Anima.


>> 2) I am also a little nervous about the IoT reference in the
>> charter. We haven't yet seen a use case description that would
>> apply to IoT (which has IMHO a much broader scope than home
>> networks, e.g. building services.)
>>
>> I think the initial focus is indeed on enterprise and carrier
>> networks where the OPEX pain is greatest, but we should not
>> artificially limit the applicability either.
>=20
> I would just say that you aim at enterprise networks and leave it at th=
at, then. Considering home networks, and even more so constrained devices=
 in the IoT land have different management model and resources than your =
typical enterprise devices.

Yes, but we are (to be frank) trying to disrupt the current enterprise
model and I don't want to constrain the thinking by constraining
the scope.

>=20
>> There are the existing NMRG documents and there will be an
>> overview document, but we are following quite specific direction
>> from the ADs about this.
>=20
> Well, at least providing links to them in the charter would be probably=
 good idea then. As it is, it looks like =E2=80=98we have solution, here =
is the WG=E2=80=99 to me.

The NMRG drafts are cited in the charter. We are trying to avoid
claiming that existing solution proposals *are* the draft solutions,
because that's the WG's choice to make.
>=20
>>> It is not also clear to me how well the suitability of the
>>> solution has been evaluated. For implementation of some
>>> autonomic, distributed algorithms, point-to-point negotiation
>>> protocol such as the suggested solution is far from optimal.
>>> In case of homenet, we moved from hierarchical DHCPv6 PD
>>> (point-to-point hierarchy) to a distributed algorithm
>>> (draft-ietf-homenet-prefix-assignment*) which was result of
>>> over two years of draft updates, academic proving of
>>> correctness etc.
>> There is a subtle point here. The idea is to produce generic
>> components that do *not* imply specific autonomic algorithms. If
>> we do it correctly, those components will support either a top
>> down or a distributed mechanism or even a blend of the two
>> approaches. So actually the solution choices come later: we
>> don=E2=80=99t have to decide in advance between top-down and peer-to-p=
eer.
>=20
> A protocol (draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol) that is essentiall=
y point-to-point state push/pull mechanism does not seem like natural fit=
 for that (+- some discovery).

Well, I disagree, but that again is a job for the WG.

> The scalable solutions with such protocol require hierarchies of delega=
tion. For example, given prefix delegation problem, the reasonable (=3Dlo=
w number of total message exchanges) solutions wind up subdividing the pr=
efix hierarchically, or alternatively with some =E2=80=98god node=E2=80=99=
(s) that perform the allocations. It becomes harder if you have multiple =
sources of same resource (=3Dprefix) or want to be robust in case of fail=
ure.

If a resource needs a hierarchy you would contstruct that on top of
the negotiation protocol, not as an intrinsic feature of the protocol.

>>> although it is covered
>>> only by one mention in the whole charter (and the rest does
>>> not seem very IoT oriented).
>> So should we say in the charter that the scope is everything but
>> the initial focus is enterprise and carrier?
>=20
> Or that you are developing enterprise solution and it can work for anyt=
hing with luck.=20

No, not with luck, if we do it right. That would be like saying that
DHCP(v4) was designed for campus networks but would work for
home networks with luck.

>=20
>>> Looking at the solutions, from homenet developer / draft
>>> writer point of view, I would welcome a general trust
>>> bootstrapping framework. I am not convinced by the current
>>> solution draft for that (it assumes too many components for a
>>> home network case at least). A lot of the other things seem
>>> somewhat enterprise-y (control plane with IPsec, own routing
>>> protocol and ULAs? Not in IoT device at least, nor probably
>>> in constrained homenet router), or just unsuitable, such as
>>> the negotiation protocol that does not seem like a good fit
>>> for distributed decision making which is usually the key
>>> thing in autonomic networking.
>> That means we have explained the negotiation idea badly. It is
>> not top-down negotiation like
>> draft-boucadair-network-automation-requirements. It is peer to
>> peer with top-down as a special case.
>=20
> Sure, it is simple =E2=80=98who is there=E2=80=99, =E2=80=99{can I haz =
X, (yes|no|no but you can have Y)}+=E2=80=99  protocol as far as I can re=
ad the draft anyway (draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02)

Exactly. And that is pretty close to Turing-complete so it
could be used very generally.

>=20
> It is not obvious to me how it would be even used to tell other all oth=
er nodes about e.g. change in some network parameter (say, NTP server). I=
s it a =E2=80=98request=E2=80=99? Who is it sent to? How to prevent dupli=
cation of sending it to nodes that already did receive it?

Yes. I noticed that when considering Rene's comment about state
synchronization and it needs more work. Nobody is saying that
it is fully baked yet.

>=20
> From my point of view, a general network infra protocol needs
>=20
> - discovery
> - state push/pull _network wide_
>=20
> HNCP does this; I am not sure how CDNP can be used for this, but I welc=
ome examples.

It's intentionally peer-to-peer so network-wide requires propagation;
but I don't understand how HNCP could do some of the other things we
want. There will be a revised requirements in a forthcoming draft, so
I'd rather have that discussion later.

Let me be clear: if HNCP can be generalised to do what we need (which
would probably mean changing its name slightly) I'd be delighted.
There is absolutely nothing to be gained by having two protocols if
one will work.

   Brian


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Subject: Re: [Anima] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-09: (with BLOCK)
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On 03/10/2014 01:49, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
> My personal goal is that what we do in ANIMA is fully compatible with and ideally used in homenet. It would feel wrong to me to have an infrastructure that doesn't work in a homenet. 
> 
> The security bootstrap is a good example of what we can achieve, with reasonable effort. To me, address management is a *use case* for the ANIMA work. Actually, we ought to be able to map *any* distributed address management method on top of the autonomic infrastructure that we're trying to create in ANIMA. 
> 
> We should also look to use HNCP in ANIMA, for sure (and the charter allows that!). But according to my intro statement, what ANIMA does would have to work across all architectures. We need to look more closely at this, and see whether 1) HNCP works as is , or 2) we can create an HNCP++ that can scale to SP/Ent, or 3) we need a different approach in ANIMA. As long as we do proper due diligence we should be able to settle on the best of those 3 options. 

Exactly. We have a model for the discovery/negotiation protocol which is
certainly different from HNCP right now, but it is *not* written in stone.
However, today HNCP has a defined scope and has some limitations, so
if we converge, it would have to lose the H ("home") and gain some other
properties. I don't believe we can commit to that in the charter but of
course we can commit to investigate it.

   Brian

> So, personally I think we can work out a charter that resolves those conflicts, step by step. 
> 
> Michael
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ted Lemon
>> Sent: 02 October 2014 13:38
>> To: The IESG
>> Cc: anima@ietf.org
>> Subject: [Anima] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-09: (with
>> BLOCK)
>>
>> Ted Lemon has entered the following ballot position for
>> charter-ietf-anima-00-09: Block
>>
>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email
>> addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory
>> paragraph, however.)
>>
>>
>>
>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
>> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> BLOCK:
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> The following exchange between Mark and Brian illustrates what I want out
>> of a BoF or External Review discussion:
>>
>> Mark:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> In any case, It's not hard to extrapolate from here that in a year's time or so,
>> if we continue on the current trajectory, homenet will have come up with
>> its own non-anima secure bootstrapping, and anima will have come up with
>> its own non-homenet distributed IPv6 prefix configuration.
>>
>> Brian:
>>
>> Which we should try to coordinate, since I see no reason in theory why
>> there can't be common underlying mechanisms between enterprise, carrier
>> and SOHO. But I don't want to hear in 2 years time that homenet is stuck
>> because anima hasn't met its milestones.
>>
>> Ted:
>>
>> Right now Homenet has a solution for the distributed configuration problem
>> with a spec and at least one WIP implementation, and is working
>> seriously on the mutual authentication problem.   There may be some
>> synergy between what Homenet is trying to do and what ANIMA is trying to
>> do.   If there is, it would be a big win to coordinate the two groups'
>> activities.   It may also be that there is no synergy, and the efforts
>> are really effectively independent.
>>
>> Before the working group is chartered, I would like to see some clarity
>> reached about this.   If there is synergy, I'd like there to be some
>> clear agreement about how to move forward so that ANIMA can achieve its
>> goals and Homenet can achieve its goals without either creating an interop
>> problem or stalling.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> .
> 


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Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2014 10:41:58 +1300
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Cc: 'Benoit Claise' <bclaise@cisco.com>, adrian@olddog.co.uk, 'The IESG' <iesg@ietf.org>, anima@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Anima] Adrian Farrel's No Objection on charter-ietf-anima-00-09: (with COMMENT)
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Laurent,

I think it's clear that we intend to define basic mechanisms that
will allow all four aspects to be developed as applications of
those mechanisms, but that the charter and the WG will indeed be
tightly limited to developing just a couple of use cases as
test cases for the mechanisms. And I think that must be badly
expressed in the current draft of the charter, or we would not
need this conversation.

Regards
   Brian

On 03/10/2014 05:11, Laurent Ciavaglia wrote:
> Sorry but this is not clear to me...
> 
> What is the issue (or proposed reformulation) of: "The ANIMA working
> group will cover the four areas of self-management: configuration,
> protection, healing and optimization, and aims to be equally applicable
> to the complete network (functions) lifecycle (e.g. installation,
> commissioning, operating, etc)."?
> 
> Is it a question of timing/phasing i.e. work first on area x (current
> charter) before addressing area y (rechartering)?
> According to you, which are the first area(s) this WG is currently
> focused on?
> How are the priorities set?
> Is it not the decision of the IETF community to decide which area to
> contribute in the WG?
> 
> The very purpose of common AN components is to be re-usable across
> multiple/diverse use cases / across domains.
> 
> For the records, one of the proposed use cases (risk aware routing) is a
> self-healing feature; and the use case described in the charter
> "always-on, data plane independent connectivity" looks for me like
> having self-healing inside.
> 
> So for sure, there is no self-healing protocol in the charter, but the
> discovery, negotiation... functionalities the WG will develop should
> very well be applicable to self-healing use cases (among many others).
> 
> Thanks, best regards, Laurent.
> 
> 
> 
> On 02/10/2014 16:18, Adrian Farrel wrote:
>>
>> > If I understand correctly, Adrian's point is about "The
>>
>> > ANIMA working group will cover four areas"
>>
>> Yeah, that was my point. If the intention is to cover all four areas
>> day one, then this looks like a very wide scope. i wanted to make sure
>> this was the intention and that the work load and potential lack of
>> focus has been discussed.
>>
>> A
>>
>> *From:*Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com]
>> *Sent:* 02 October 2014 14:24
>> *To:* Laurent Ciavaglia; Adrian Farrel; The IESG
>> *Cc:* anima@ietf.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Adrian Farrel's No Objection on
>> charter-ietf-anima-00-09: (with COMMENT)
>>
>> On 02/10/2014 15:18, Laurent Ciavaglia wrote:
>>
>>     Dear Benoit , Adrian, all,
>>
>>     On 02/10/2014 14:54, Benoit Claise wrote:
>>
>>         On 01/10/2014 21:52, Adrian Farrel wrote:
>>
>>             I'm sure that good discussions have led to the list of
>> four areas of self
>>
>>             management. I do worry that these may be three too many to
>> achieve any
>>
>>             progress. Maybe it would be better to walk before we run?
>>
>>         Reviewing the wording:
>>
>>         The ANIMA working group will cover the four areas of
>> self-management:
>>
>>         configuration, protection, healing and optimization, and aims
>> to be equally
>>
>>         applicable to the complete network (functions) lifecycle (e.g.
>> installation,
>>
>>         commissioning, operating, etc).
>>
>>         Actually, autonomic networking is composed of "the four areas
>>         of self-management", but the WG doesn't not cover all four areas.
>>         So I would say: good catch Adrian.
>>
>>         Regards, Benoit
>>
>>
>>     I am not sure to understand... if not the four areas, what is the
>>     baseline of the WG?
>>
>> The baseline of the WG is autonomic networking, for sure.
>> But do the WG deal with self-healing deliveries, as an example. Not at
>> this point.
>> If I understand correctly, Adrian's point is about "The ANIMA working
>> group will _cover four areas_"
>>
>> Regards, Benoit
>>
>> If the scope is one out of the four, then the WG shall be renamed and
>> clearly refocused on problems of this specific area.
>>
>> Considering the 4 areas as the basis provides the key advantages of:
>>     -attracting a large enough community / community's interests to
>> contribute to this group.
>>     -identify out of a larger problem space the requirements /
>> boundaries of the common autonomic networking components, and to
>> ensure in return a certain level of re-usability in the multiple and
>> diverse use cases/areas.
>>
>> Best regards, Laurent.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2014 10:47:50 +1300
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-09: (with BLOCK)
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On 03/10/2014 04:12, Kathleen Moriarty wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 9:15 AM, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
> wrote:
> 
>>
>> On 02/10/14 13:49, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>>> My personal goal is that what we do in ANIMA is fully compatible with
>>> and ideally used in homenet. It would feel wrong to me to have an
>>> infrastructure that doesn't work in a homenet.
>>>
>>> The security bootstrap is a good example of what we can achieve, with
>>> reasonable effort.
>> FWIW, it is not clear to me that the reasonable requirements
>> for provisioning device security information (or bootstrapping
>> if we wanted to call it that) are the same.
>>
> 
> This is where we would have overlap with SACM and I2NSF.  I've spoken in
> Ops and Dan R has helped to try to recruit some folks to help in SACM.  It
> would be good to not solve this in multiple places.  SACM and I2NSF are
> de-conflicting what they cover.  Provisioning and assessing security
> information is part of those efforts already, hence my questions on the
> charter as well.
> 
>> In enterprise environments we see fewer larger vendors of devices.
>> In the home where we additionally have a large range of vendors
>> many of whom are tiny and leverage a lot of OSS and who could
>> perhaps not take part in the kind of provisioning infrastructure
>> that is quite reasonable for enterprises and their vendors.
>>
> 
> There is a push in the vendor space for this type of automation and I'm all
> for it, let's just coordinate on it so we don't wind up with too many ways
> to do it.

Absolutely. It isn't surprising that Anima proponents are proposing
specific approaches to security (or anything else), but there is an
overriding sentence in the charter:

"Where suitable protocols, models or methods exist, they will be preferred over
creating new ones. "

Clerarly that calls for coordination and awareness.

   Brian

> 
> 
>> I do think both want to end up in the same state, where devices
>> are authorised for connection to the network and where there is
>> some keying material usable for security, but I'd be surprised
>> if one approach to getting there worked the same way for both
>> homes and enterprises.
>>
> 
> I'd like to see this discusses more, but maybe it's not in this group?
> 
> Thanks,
> Kathleen
> 
>> S.
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
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Subject: [Anima] Anima drafts before IETF 91
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Hi,

We will be meeting as a BOF or a WG at the next IETF, so drafts
need to be posted by Oct. 27. Of course, anybody can post drafts.
If they are in scope for the draft charter, they will be easier to
identify if named draft-AUTHOR-anima-TOPIC.

I'm expecting to see these at least:

-discovery-negotiation-protocol
-trust-bootstrap
-autonomic-control-plane
-reference-model (i.e. overview)

And to be 100% clear: even if we are a WG in Honolulu, these will
just be individual drafts open for discussion.

   Brian


From nobody Thu Oct  2 15:36:22 2014
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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-09: (with BLOCK)
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On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 6:50 AM, Leddy, John
<John_Leddy@cable.comcast.com> wrote:
> My worry on this topic is that we are referring to =C2=B3the Home=C2=B2 a=
nd =C2=B3the
> Enterprise=C2=B2.

I have always approached homenet as a place to get standards that also work=
 for
small business. Small business is the place (IMHO) where much of an
ipv6 revolution
could start to happen.

> It isn=C2=B9t that clear of a distinction.  This isn=C2=B9t just a simple=
 L2 flat
> home vs. a Fortune 1000 enterprise.

+1

> The home is getting more complex and includes work from home; IOT, home
> security, hot spots, cloud services, policies, discovery etc.
> Large numbers of SMB=C2=B9s look like more high end residential than they=
 do
> large enterprises.

+1

>
> It would be ideal to have a solution that spans the range of size and
> complexity for both residential and enterprise.
> Perhaps enabling features/capabilities where required.
>
> Also, as far as IPV6 connectivity residential is probably ahead of
> enterprises in adopting V6 centric architectures and services.
> Residential doesn=C2=B9t have much of a choice, it just happens.

Comcast's rollout has been quite impressive. Gfiber's also.
Others, not so much.

>
> 2cents, John
>
> On 10/2/14, 9:15 AM, "Stephen Farrell" <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>On 02/10/14 13:49, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>>> My personal goal is that what we do in ANIMA is fully compatible with
>>> and ideally used in homenet. It would feel wrong to me to have an
>>> infrastructure that doesn't work in a homenet.
>>>
>>> The security bootstrap is a good example of what we can achieve, with
>>> reasonable effort.
>>
>>FWIW, it is not clear to me that the reasonable requirements
>>for provisioning device security information (or bootstrapping
>>if we wanted to call it that) are the same.
>>
>>In enterprise environments we see fewer larger vendors of devices.
>>In the home where we additionally have a large range of vendors
>>many of whom are tiny and leverage a lot of OSS and who could
>>perhaps not take part in the kind of provisioning infrastructure
>>that is quite reasonable for enterprises and their vendors.
>>
>>I do think both want to end up in the same state, where devices
>>are authorised for connection to the network and where there is
>>some keying material usable for security, but I'd be surprised
>>if one approach to getting there worked the same way for both
>>homes and enterprises.
>>
>>S.
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>homenet mailing list
>>homenet@ietf.org
>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> homenet mailing list
> homenet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet



--=20
Dave T=C3=A4ht

https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/make-wifi-fast


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--=-=-=


Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
    > We will be meeting as a BOF or a WG at the next IETF, so drafts
    > need to be posted by Oct. 27. Of course, anybody can post drafts.
    > If they are in scope for the draft charter, they will be easier to
    > identify if named draft-AUTHOR-anima-TOPIC.

    > I'm expecting to see these at least:

    > -discovery-negotiation-protocol
    > -trust-bootstrap

draft-richardson-6tisch-idevid-cert-00.txt is implementation area for -trust-bootstrap.

draft-richardson-6tisch-security-6top-02.txt is an attempt to implement an
architecture for trust-bootstrap.

I'm not sure how they fit in to your agenda yet.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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From nobody Thu Oct  2 18:08:53 2014
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From: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [homenet] [Anima] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-09: (with BLOCK)
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I am fully agree with Brian and Kathleen. It is well understood that the ne=
w WG would study on existing solutions and ongoing proposals to make sure i=
t is necessary to create new mechanisms. Coordination and awareness is esse=
ntial for the ANIMA group.

Best regards,

Sheng
________________________________________
From: homenet [homenet-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Brian E Carpenter [br=
ian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]
Sent: 03 October 2014 5:47
To: Kathleen Moriarty
Cc: Michael Behringer (mbehring); The IESG; homenet@ietf.org; Stephen Farre=
ll; anima@ietf.org; Ted Lemon
Subject: Re: [homenet] [Anima] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-0=
9: (with BLOCK)

On 03/10/2014 04:12, Kathleen Moriarty wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 9:15 AM, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.i=
e>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 02/10/14 13:49, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>>> My personal goal is that what we do in ANIMA is fully compatible with
>>> and ideally used in homenet. It would feel wrong to me to have an
>>> infrastructure that doesn't work in a homenet.
>>>
>>> The security bootstrap is a good example of what we can achieve, with
>>> reasonable effort.
>> FWIW, it is not clear to me that the reasonable requirements
>> for provisioning device security information (or bootstrapping
>> if we wanted to call it that) are the same.
>>
>
> This is where we would have overlap with SACM and I2NSF.  I've spoken in
> Ops and Dan R has helped to try to recruit some folks to help in SACM.  I=
t
> would be good to not solve this in multiple places.  SACM and I2NSF are
> de-conflicting what they cover.  Provisioning and assessing security
> information is part of those efforts already, hence my questions on the
> charter as well.
>
>> In enterprise environments we see fewer larger vendors of devices.
>> In the home where we additionally have a large range of vendors
>> many of whom are tiny and leverage a lot of OSS and who could
>> perhaps not take part in the kind of provisioning infrastructure
>> that is quite reasonable for enterprises and their vendors.
>>
>
> There is a push in the vendor space for this type of automation and I'm a=
ll
> for it, let's just coordinate on it so we don't wind up with too many way=
s
> to do it.

Absolutely. It isn't surprising that Anima proponents are proposing
specific approaches to security (or anything else), but there is an
overriding sentence in the charter:

"Where suitable protocols, models or methods exist, they will be preferred =
over
creating new ones. "

Clerarly that calls for coordination and awareness.

   Brian

>
>
>> I do think both want to end up in the same state, where devices
>> are authorised for connection to the network and where there is
>> some keying material usable for security, but I'd be surprised
>> if one approach to getting there worked the same way for both
>> homes and enterprises.
>>
>
> I'd like to see this discusses more, but maybe it's not in this group?
>
> Thanks,
> Kathleen
>
>> S.
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima

_______________________________________________
homenet mailing list
homenet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet=


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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-09: (with BLOCK)
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I also think ISP networks and enterprise networks are different from home n=
etworks. Although many requirements may looks similar, particularly conside=
ring the auto operation target, there are many preconditions are different.=
 It could result on different solution though some components may be reusab=
le among these networks.

For ANIMA, we should surely study what homenet is working on and identify t=
he differentia. Only after then, we can produce necessary solution with con=
fusing the world.

Best regards,

Sheng
________________________________________
From: homenet [homenet-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Toerless Eckert [ecke=
rt@cisco.com]
Sent: 02 October 2014 22:41
To: Leddy, John
Cc: Michael Behringer (mbehring); The IESG; homenet@ietf.org; Stephen Farre=
ll; anima@ietf.org; Ted Lemon
Subject: Re: [homenet] [Anima] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-0=
9: (with BLOCK)

Fully agreed. But does this imply that we will make most progress by
blocking out a working group that is actively chartered to look at
the problems in the market segments Homenet is not addressing ?

If the BLOCK is meant to suggest a charter improvements for anima to
better define our mutual desire to share whatever is applicable and
not reinvent unnecessarily, then where is the proposed charter text change =
?

Cheers
    Toerless

P.S.: Also, if i may throw in some random tidbit of technology thoughts:

I love home networks (and the WG for it), because it is the best place
for IPv6 to eliminate IPv4 and start creating fresh, better IP
network. I have a lot of doubt that we are anywhere close to going that
route especially in larger enterprises, so the address management for
IPv4 in those networks is going to be a crucial requirement where i don't
think homenet could (or should) be any big help. And i am not sure if i wou=
ld
want to hold my breath for a lot of IPv4 adress complexity reduction in
IoT either. But certainly autonomic processes cold rather help than hurt
in that matter.


On Thu, Oct 02, 2014 at 01:50:13PM +0000, Leddy, John wrote:
> My worry on this topic is that we are referring to =B3the Home=B2 and =B3=
the
> Enterprise=B2.
> It isn=B9t that clear of a distinction.  This isn=B9t just a simple L2 fl=
at
> home vs. a Fortune 1000 enterprise.
>
> The home is getting more complex and includes work from home; IOT, home
> security, hot spots, cloud services, policies, discovery etc.
> Large numbers of SMB=B9s look like more high end residential than they do
> large enterprises.
>
> It would be ideal to have a solution that spans the range of size and
> complexity for both residential and enterprise.
> Perhaps enabling features/capabilities where required.
>
> Also, as far as IPV6 connectivity residential is probably ahead of
> enterprises in adopting V6 centric architectures and services.
> Residential doesn=B9t have much of a choice, it just happens.
>
> 2cents, John
>
> On 10/2/14, 9:15 AM, "Stephen Farrell" <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >On 02/10/14 13:49, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
> >> My personal goal is that what we do in ANIMA is fully compatible with
> >> and ideally used in homenet. It would feel wrong to me to have an
> >> infrastructure that doesn't work in a homenet.
> >>
> >> The security bootstrap is a good example of what we can achieve, with
> >> reasonable effort.
> >
> >FWIW, it is not clear to me that the reasonable requirements
> >for provisioning device security information (or bootstrapping
> >if we wanted to call it that) are the same.
> >
> >In enterprise environments we see fewer larger vendors of devices.
> >In the home where we additionally have a large range of vendors
> >many of whom are tiny and leverage a lot of OSS and who could
> >perhaps not take part in the kind of provisioning infrastructure
> >that is quite reasonable for enterprises and their vendors.
> >
> >I do think both want to end up in the same state, where devices
> >are authorised for connection to the network and where there is
> >some keying material usable for security, but I'd be surprised
> >if one approach to getting there worked the same way for both
> >homes and enterprises.
> >
> >S.
> >

_______________________________________________
homenet mailing list
homenet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet=


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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, Ted Lemon <ted.lemon@nominum.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [homenet] [Anima] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-09: (with BLOCK)
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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-09: (with BLOCK)
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: homenet [mailto:homenet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stephen
> Farrell
> Sent: 02 October 2014 15:15
> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); Ted Lemon; The IESG
> Cc: homenet@ietf.org; anima@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [homenet] [Anima] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-
> 00-09: (with BLOCK)
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On 02/10/14 13:49, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
> > My personal goal is that what we do in ANIMA is fully compatible with
> > and ideally used in homenet. It would feel wrong to me to have an
> > infrastructure that doesn't work in a homenet.
> >
> > The security bootstrap is a good example of what we can achieve, with
> > reasonable effort.
>=20
> FWIW, it is not clear to me that the reasonable requirements for
> provisioning device security information (or bootstrapping if we wanted t=
o
> call it that) are the same.
>=20
> In enterprise environments we see fewer larger vendors of devices.
> In the home where we additionally have a large range of vendors many of
> whom are tiny and leverage a lot of OSS and who could perhaps not take
> part in the kind of provisioning infrastructure that is quite reasonable =
for
> enterprises and their vendors.
>=20
> I do think both want to end up in the same state, where devices are
> authorised for connection to the network and where there is some keying
> material usable for security, but I'd be surprised if one approach to get=
ting
> there worked the same way for both homes and enterprises.

Good points, thanks Stephen. I don't think we have clear answers at this po=
int, but this is the job of the ANIMA group (together with the groups that =
were mentioned) to figure out whether there should be a single approach, an=
d if so, what it should be.=20
=20
Personally my starting point is "let's try whether a joint approach works",=
 but clearly there is no guarantee.=20

Michael

> S.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> homenet mailing list
> homenet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet


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From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
To: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>, "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" <eckert@cisco.com>, "Leddy, John" <John_Leddy@cable.comcast.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Anima] review of draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions-03
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Finally working on the next version of this document. Thanks for your detai=
led review Rene, inline more... =20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rene Struik
> Sent: 16 September 2014 22:47
> To: anima@ietf.org
> Subject: [Anima] review of draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions-
> 03
>=20
> Dear colleagues:
>=20
> Please find below my initial comments on draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-
> network-definitions-03.
>=20
> 1. Summary:
>=20
> The draft provides a loose introduction of some autonomic networking
> notions and then lists some design goals and non-goals.
>=20
> 2. General comments:
>=20
> a) The title of the document is somewhat misleading, since the document i=
s
> mostly about goals and non-goals and less about definitions.

I don't have a better title for now, and still think that the title should =
mention both parts.

> b) The goal of autonomic networking is described {Section 2} in terms of

Section 2? That's just the definitions. "goals" points to section 3, but ac=
tually, I think you're really referring to the intro? =20

> reversing the swing of a pendulum that previously swung into the directio=
n
> of replacing localized configuration and network management decision
> criteria by centralized ones (by putting "intelligence" into network
> management tools rather than devices themselves) into the counter-swing
> of putting more intelligence in devices themselves. What is missing,
> though, is a somewhat more balanced treatment of the topic:
> after all, network design exercises have to deal with many trade-offs, wi=
th
> optimal choices not a priori cast in stone. As case in point, consider se=
nsor
> networks: here, energy savings and spotty connectivity favor localized
> decisions, whereas configuration may benefit from a more holistic view of
> the network (e.g., to manage time latency and energy cost, as with, e.g.,
> 6TiSCH, or to reduce the shear amount of traffic to communicate micro-
> updates on state that may be flushed from a more centralized repository i=
n
> one protocol pass). I would strongly suggest giving this entire section m=
ore
> substance by bringing in various elements of network design consideration=
s
> besides configuration (e.g., audit/log functionality) and paying tribute =
to
> trade-offs in device capabilities, energy usage, time latencies, flexibil=
ity,
> security, ease of use, and the-like. Now, it reads like a "cutting the no=
n-
> localized cord" ode no matter what. This should also include some
> discussion on whether localized decisions result in anything close to a
> "global optimum", what the effect is if some local decisions are disturbe=
d
> (whether due to malicious act or otherwise), and whether convergence
> actually can take place. {NOTE: I do realize that this is an internet dra=
ft and
> not an academic paper, but why not at least mention some of this??}

Independently where this actually belongs, let me make a clarifying stateme=
nt here: We are trying NOT to judge what is better. This is invariably goin=
g to get into a religious war, which I really don't want to have, because i=
t doesn't help.=20

But I see the point you're making - We shouldn't make it sound that complet=
e decentralisation is the real goal, and I agree with that (and never meant=
 to imply that). Let me work in some verbiage to that regard. Bottom line o=
f the argument is, as I see it:=20
- "autonomic" is for most networks NOT black and white
- some functions are better centralised, some decentralised
- the discussion on which function should follow which paradigm is out of s=
cope for this doc.=20
- this doc describes the decentralised functions.=20

Does that cut it?=20

And, looking at where this discussion fits best, I think it should be part =
of the "introduction" section.  I added the following (plus some small edit=
s along the way):=20

      <t>Some network deployments benefit from a fully autonomic approach, =
for=20
      example networks with a large number of relatively simple devices.=20
      Most of currently deployed networks however will require a mixed appr=
oach,
      where some functions are autonomic and others are centrally mangaged.
      Central management of networking functions clearly has advantages and
      will be chosen for many networking functions. This document does not=
=20
      discuss which functions should be centralised or follow an autonomic=
=20
      approach. Instead, it should help make the decision which is the best=
=20
      approach for a given situation.</t>     =20

> c) I would also describe some other factors that may have contributed
> {Section 2} to complexity and non-flexibility, where lack of "separation =
of
> concern" (e.g., encoding addresses in a topology-aware fashion -- nice fo=
r
> semi-static networks, but a major headache for mobile networks, where
> flexibility comes at a premium) may unfortunately have driven part of the
> design activities in the past for whatever reason and where vested
> economical interests may have favored centralized control points
> (think: service providers, with centralized user authentication functiona=
lity;
> and with an interest in raising the entry bar for new network entrants, v=
ia
> these same control points).

Hmmm... These are all good points, but I think this is mainly historical co=
nsiderations, which may lead to more and more text being added, and I would=
 really like to keep this document as short as possible.=20
Can we leave out WHY certain decisions were made in the past, or do you rea=
lly think this is a major part of the document?=20

> d) It should be made more clear that autonomic networking has limits, sin=
ce
> it cannot really deal well with device-specific functions, since "intent"
> treats all devices within a network generically and similarly (e.g., in t=
heir
> role as routers or as "members of a domain"). This may have repercussions
> when applying these notions to security architectural design that include=
s
> applications, since physical devices are often not generic, but display
> tailored functions, without too much redundancy and replication.

I think the new section above covers that, by not even trying to make auton=
omics the "right" architecture in the future, but a part of a bigger scheme=
. Again, yes, we could enter into more detail here, but I think the above p=
aragraph might be clear enough? I think your main point is "AN isn't for ev=
erything" - and I think we make that point now.

> e) Some of the non-goals seem to be actually goals that one, for some
> reason (politics, unions?) does not want to label as such. As an example,=
 the
> objective clearly is to significantly reduce human involvement in network
> management, for all but specialized functions=20

I can see how you can read it this way, and am thinking on how to fix that =
perception. But we state clearly in the "goals" that " It is the design goa=
l to make functions on network nodes self- managing, in other words, minima=
lly dependent on management systems or controllers, as well as human operat=
ors." (3.1). But it is NOT a design goals to ELIMINATE human operators.=20

I'll try to fix that perception, because it's clearly misleading (and thank=
s for pointing this out!). I now start that section with "Section 3.1 state=
s that "It is the design goal to [...] minimally dependent on [...] human o=
perators". It is however not a design goal to completely eliminate them."=20

> (conflicting with Section 4.1,
> but implied by the last sentence hereof
> -- "more like doctors than hospital orderlies"), to reduce control by
> management rather than "network management controls" (which are
> completely different things altogether!) (Section 4.3),=20

We mean to say that even if a function is autonomic, you can still control =
it (albeit by different means).=20
I rename the phrase in question to "Eliminate central control " - should be=
 clearer?=20

But again, I *do* think it is a non-goal to ELIMINATE central control. Do w=
e agree?=20

I start this section now with " While it is a goal to simplify northbound i=
nterfaces (<xref target=3D"simple-north"/>, it is not a goal to eliminate c=
entral control, but to allow it on a higher abstraction level."

> to sanitize the
> current complexities and thereby strive for elimination of configuration
> tools (Section 4.4) and existing network management systems (Section 4.5)=
.

For sections 4.4 and 4.5 I actually agree with you! This is incorrect as li=
sted here, and thanks for spotting this. For a given autonomic function (!)=
 the goal is indeed to eliminate complex config tools and NMS systems.=20
These 2 points really belong to the co-existence section, because since in =
reality only some functions will be autonomic, traditional tools will still=
 be needed for the non-autonomic functions.=20
And I just re-read the co-existence section, and think it is sufficiently c=
lear. I'll therefore just remove those two paragraphs.=20

Well spotted, thanks! :-)=20

> If the goal of the autonomic networking exercise is *not* to clean up the
> current complexities, do things better, with ultimate goal of brushing so=
me
> of the current procedures/dead wood/ossified methods aside, why even
> start this effort at all? Stating goals as non-goals is not credible. Mor=
e to the
> point would be that one takes into account "managed change", co-existence
> of new systems with pre-existing ones, etc., but that is something that
> applies to any development. A draft with goals should make a convincing
> case, including convincing no loss of manageability and anomaly control,
> and not pay lip service to all those who might be impacted by this
> (moreover, this is a technical document, isn't it?).

Let me know whether it's better now, and if you spot anything else that's i=
ncoherent or misleading.=20

> 3. Specific comments
>=20
> Section 1:
> 1) First sentence (p. 2): "control loops" should read "control loop"

Actually, the way I see it there isn't necessarily a single control loop. I=
 guess it depends how you define "control loop".=20

> 2) First sentence (pp. 2-3): remove the word autonomic (twice), which is
> really overused here, without definition yet.=20

done.=20

> Moreover, the definition in
> Section 2 is really strict, so most networks may not be labelled this way=
.

Yes, this is the result of some previous discussion, where some folks felt =
strongly that an autonomic node can only be called that if it is fully self=
-managed, with all self-CHOP features. The new version emphasises much more=
 the autonomic function. To me, that is way more relevant to the work at ha=
nd.=20

Frankly we can re-open that debate, but I think the current set of definiti=
ons is coherent and logical. You could come up with other coherent sets of =
definitions. We just need to settle on one.=20

> 3) Forelast para (p. 3): define "as a well as northbound" (or, better, re=
move
> this topology-related notions and replace by "and with external processes=
"
> or the-like)

Fixed.=20

> Section 2:
> 4) The word "autonomic" is defined in terms of self*, which is not that
> descriptive. Couldn't one describe this in terms of devices reaching
> localized decisions, via observation (akin to the nervous system analogue=
)?

The self-* paradigm has been widely used in research and other autonomic ar=
chitectures, and I suggest we use the same scheme here as elsewhere. Actual=
ly, it is quite hard to define "autonomic" in a couple of sentences... Let'=
s use existing definitions here.=20

> 5) The description of "intent" seems to preclude codifying device-specifi=
c
> functionality in, e.g., a device certificate or attribute certificate. (A=
s
> described in the draft, it seems to codify only "domain" policy attribute=
s.)

This is intentional. Well, the intent is network wide. Certificates can hav=
e attributes. The two don't contradict each other.=20

> As an aside, codifying domains seems to require careful network planning
> and coordination and knowing in advance which domain a node should
> belong to. I wonder to what degree this limits flexibility of deployment =
and
> ease of use.

This is a good question. Indeed, we need to keep our eyes open to this ques=
tion in the future.=20
=20
> Section 3:
> 6) First bullet (p. 6): With self-configuration, how does one distinguish=
 two
> devices A and B or elevate one to be in control of the other?=20

You use a tie-breaker algorithm to decide. As in routing protocols. Worst c=
ase "lowest IP wins". Many ways to do that. Should this be elaborated here?=
 Is that not too detailed?=20

> Shouldn't one
> mention somewhere privacy aspects (what if a retail store "discovers" may
> cell phone and now conveniently tracks this, since the cell phone has to
> authenticate itself first?)

I prefer to keep that one out of a "definitions and goals" draft.=20

> 7) Second bullet (p. 6): With self-healing, how does one recover from
> anomalies that cannot easily be decided by majority rules (such as with
> security)?

There is some different page scheme between us... To me, page 6 doesn't hav=
e a second bullet... Are you referring to page 4 (definition of self-healin=
g). And, I don't understand that question... Can you expand please?=20

> 8) Third bullet (p. 7): With self-optimizing, shouldn't one add some verb=
iage
> as to local vs. global optimization and the potential impact of a local
> disturbance of the system on state? (As to the latter, I can imagine ther=
e to
> be a few algorithms that lend themselves to easy convergence and failure
> recovery, whereas with others, localized failure recovery is almost doome=
d
> to fail.)

[yes, now I have it: your page scheme =3D mine+2 pages]
So, yes, as with some of the previous points, we could go into more details=
. I think we don't want to roll up all nuances of the approach in a definit=
ions draft? Please let me know if you disagree...=20

> 9) First para Section 3.2: "forseeable" should read "foreseeable"

Fixed, thanks!=20

> 10) First para Section 3.2: "fully autonomic nodes and network(s)"
> (i.e., make the last word plural)

Fixed.

> 11) In Section 3.2, the priority order (where human decisions rule) shoul=
d
> not necessarily be a "design principle"; rather, it should be a potential
> instantiation of a policy-setting. After all, management functionality sh=
ould
> consider a mix of local self-management functions, plus oversight (thereb=
y,
> keeping operational invariants), where different applications may call fo=
r
> different decision criteria prioritization and choices. (In fact, this is=
 alluded
> to in the last para of Section 3.2, withe auto-pilot and nuclear plant
> scenarios.) One may want to add some verbiage here as well to graceful
> degradation and failure recovery.

OK, you're right that strictly speaking the design goal is "coexistence" an=
d questions on order of priorities are not really part of the goal. But thi=
s question has been asked and should be address somewhere, and i don't see =
a better place right now...=20

"more verbiage" - same comment as before :-)   Yes, we could, but we were t=
rying to keep this document short and limited to definitions and goals. I c=
an be convinced I think, but I'm not convinced yet :-) =20

> 12) First para (p. 6): replace "trustworhty" by "reliable"

ok. done.

> 13) In Section 3.3, first para, one should omit the subsentence "using a
> domain identity, for example a certificate issued by a domain certificate
> authority". After all, there are multiple ways for a device to evidence g=
roup
> membership, besides issuing domain specific certs. As case in point, with
> sensor networks such as w/HART, ZigBee, ISA SP100, network membership
> is evidenced by the use of a group key and network access is arbitraged b=
y a
> network manager (who may coincide or coordinate with the originator of
> the group key).

This is why we use the term "for example". You're mentioning another exampl=
e. Both are ok. :-)=20

> 14) In Section 3.3, first para, replace "common trust anchor" by "mutuall=
y
> respected trust anchor" (after all, it may be that two devices A and B ha=
ve
> certs issued by different CAs, but nevertheless A respect B's certificate
> authority's CA and vice-versa).

good point. Fixed! (you don't miss anything, do you?! :-)=20

> 15) In Section 3.3, 2nd para, while it is possible to have domain entitie=
s, this
> is not a priori necessary for autonomic networking: as already mentioned
> above, if network access involves a network manager, it could simply
> perform membership tests via a white list of devices (SubjectPublicKeyInf=
o,
> so to speak). Should one use domain identities, one should clearly
> articulate how these should be issued, what preplanning and coordination
> this requires and what the impact is on flexibility of deployment. This
> should be compared with alternatives, such as the use of group keys in th=
e
> sensor network example above. As a final note, if one where to use domain
> identities, these could also be realized via attribute certs, rather than
> device certs.

So. Again, we can go into 100 times more detail here, and all the options y=
ou list are correct, and will probably be used somewhere. I think the purpo=
se of this document is not to be complete, but to point out the fundamental=
 concepts really.=20

What we're trying to say is "a node must be able to authenticate another no=
de". Now you're right, "domain identity" doesn't capture all of your exampl=
es, and you may also not require always a "strong, cryptographically verifi=
able" one. Can we still try to put this concept into a short paragraph?=20

I think this should be explained in a different doc. - Goes beyond the scop=
e here.=20

> 16) In Section 3.4, I believe it has merit to replace the somewhat
> positional/almost ideological language ("decentralization above all") by =
the
> more neutral statement that one aims to "improve the ability to cope with
> changes". (This is also the language in the ACM 2006 survey paper by Dobs=
on
> et al).

Ideologies are bad. Except if you create them yourself! :-)=20

I see your point. And it's politically a bit risky, I see that. At the same=
 time I think the phrase "de-centralisation and distribution are fundamenta=
l to the concept." is actually a lot clearer to the reader than "improving =
the ability to cope with changes".=20

In other words, here I think it's worth walking a fine line on political ac=
ceptability, to the benefit of clarity. Thoughts?=20

> 17) In Section 3.4, 2nd para, one should add some verbiage to the effect =
that
> a central repository of information has also been in the interest of vest=
ed
> interests, since this has been about control and lock-in of users/custome=
rs
> as well. It is not clear to me why an autonomic network
> *must* be able to use a centralized system in order to be deployable.
> Isn't this just lip service to the vested interests? {I can very well ima=
gine,
> e.g., completely distributed wifi access, with local micropayment to pay =
for
> ongoing access, without need for any centralized system, except perhaps
> for settling those micro-payments. This seems to indicate that the
> autonomic approach could live in parallel of whatever central
> repositories/control points might be operatioal right now.}

I think we're trying to say "if operationally relevant data is kept central=
ly, an AN system must be able to use it.". We're also saying that "it is po=
ssible to distribute such databases and that should be considered". Actuall=
y we're trying to NOT be dogmatic here, in practice a lot of information is=
 centralised, and we better work with it. Actually I use this to justify th=
e above sentence. :-) =20

There is one change I can make that will "smoothen" the argument, I'll chan=
ge the "must" to "should". But re-reading this section, I think it expresse=
s exactly what we want to say?!=20

And frankly, I don't want to go into the reason WHY some data might be cent=
ralised, and what the commercial consequences are. OK?=20

> 18) In Section 3.5, I would explicitly mention audit/log/monitoring and
> failure recovery mechanisms, as well as, perhaps, aggregated functionalit=
y
> that is relevant when one zooms out (e.g., lease more capacity on backbon=
e
> if local network generates lots of traffic).

Added.

> 19) Section 3.6, last sentence of first para: I would argue that some of =
these
> details do matter, e.g., auto-address configuration, naming of entities, =
etc.

Can you expand? I'm not with you...

> 20) Section 3.7, first para: I wonder how "autonomic network reporting"
> provides functional trouble shooting? (Faulty components, anomaly
> detection, dead link, etc.)

Example: instead of getting 50 syslogs that all have a common root cause, a=
ggregated reporting could provide a single message back to the operator "li=
nk between x and y down." Keep in mind, this is in parallel with traditiona=
l methods such as syslog for the time being.=20

> 21) Section 3.7, last para: replace "special algorithms" by "specific
> algorithms"

done.

> 22) Section 3.7, last para: while I agree one should be cognoscent to not
> create unnecessary messaging, I again have trouble to see how one could
> build a reliable system if one purportedly does not care about detail. Wi=
th
> some systems, this may violate per-device requirements (e.g., specific
> safety valve info does not come through).

Good discussion, but not for a definitions doc, IMO.=20

> 23) Section 3.8, first para: replace "however, they" by "however, these"

Done.

> 24)  Section 4, first para: replace "items which" by "items that" (also o=
n
> numerous other locations in the draft)

Done here. Prefer a native English speaker to fix the others, not sure...

> 25) Section 4.2, p. 9: replace "fault" by "error"

Actually in the hardware context I think "fault" is more appropriate than "=
error". Am I looking at the wrong sport?=20

THANKS for this very detailed review, with tons of good comments! I expect =
to issue a new version later today.
Michael
=20


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From: "Mark Baugher (mbaugher)" <mbaugher@cisco.com>
To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [homenet] [Anima] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-09: (with BLOCK)
Thread-Index: AQHP3k73okqaa0NBjkebeYQrfyizUZwd6ywAgACHyICAAOlwgA==
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2014 23:34:37 +0000
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References: <20141002144136.GA1847@cisco.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF5E248@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <D0541C19.4165%acee@cisco.com>
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Cc: "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" <eckert@cisco.com>, Ted Lemon <ted.lemon@nominum.com>, "Leddy, John" <John_Leddy@cable.comcast.com>, "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" <mbehring@cisco.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "homenet@ietf.org" <homenet@ietf.org>, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-09: (with BLOCK)
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From nobody Fri Oct  3 17:25:40 2014
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Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2014 13:25:39 +1300
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
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To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
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Cc: anima@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Anima] Anima drafts before IETF 91
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On 03/10/2014 13:37, Michael Richardson wrote:
> Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
>     > We will be meeting as a BOF or a WG at the next IETF, so drafts
>     > need to be posted by Oct. 27. Of course, anybody can post drafts.
>     > If they are in scope for the draft charter, they will be easier to
>     > identify if named draft-AUTHOR-anima-TOPIC.
> 
>     > I'm expecting to see these at least:
> 
>     > -discovery-negotiation-protocol
>     > -trust-bootstrap
> 
> draft-richardson-6tisch-idevid-cert-00.txt is implementation area for -trust-bootstrap.
> 
> draft-richardson-6tisch-security-6top-02.txt is an attempt to implement an
> architecture for trust-bootstrap.
> 
> I'm not sure how they fit in to your agenda yet.

I suspect that even if we get the 2.5 hours we asked for, we won't be
able to do much more than identify alternative proposals for each goal,
and kick off an effort to compare/contrast those alternatives.

    Brian


From nobody Sat Oct  4 19:28:46 2014
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From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
To: "Mark Baugher (mbaugher)" <mbaugher@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [homenet] [Anima] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-09: (with BLOCK)
Thread-Index: AQHP3k73okqaa0NBjkebeYQrfyizUZwd6ywAgACHyICAAOlwgIABGhUA
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2014 20:24:16 +0000
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Cc: "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" <eckert@cisco.com>, Ted Lemon <ted.lemon@nominum.com>, "Leddy, John" <John_Leddy@cable.comcast.com>, "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" <mbehring@cisco.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "homenet@ietf.org" <homenet@ietf.org>, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-09: (with BLOCK)
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From nobody Sat Oct  4 19:28:47 2014
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Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2014 15:16:20 +1300
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-09: (with BLOCK)
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On 05/10/2014 09:24, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote:
> Right - but we still have to agree on the admin or, as you put it,
> ownership model. At least one of the proposal for autonomic networking =
is
> a centralized approach as opposed to configuring a single authenticatio=
n
> password on each new device (as one with do with a WiFi network).

Let me check that I understand. Are you saying that there are two basic
models for enrollment?

1. "Hello, I am Brian. Please enrol me; the shared secret is *!&$=C2=A3@.=
"

2. "Hello, I am Brian. My public key is 12345, and should already
be in your list. [Signed with my private key.]"

    Brian


From nobody Sat Oct  4 19:57:56 2014
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Anima drafts before IETF 91
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--=-=-=


Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
    >> Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > We will be
    >> meeting as a BOF or a WG at the next IETF, so drafts > need to be
    >> posted by Oct. 27. Of course, anybody can post drafts.  > If they are
    >> in scope for the draft charter, they will be easier to > identify if
    >> named draft-AUTHOR-anima-TOPIC.
    >>
    >> > I'm expecting to see these at least:
    >>
    >> > -discovery-negotiation-protocol > -trust-bootstrap
    >>
    >> draft-richardson-6tisch-idevid-cert-00.txt is implementation area for
    >> -trust-bootstrap.
    >>
    >> draft-richardson-6tisch-security-6top-02.txt is an attempt to
    >> implement an architecture for trust-bootstrap.
    >>
    >> I'm not sure how they fit in to your agenda yet.

    > I suspect that even if we get the 2.5 hours we asked for, we won't be
    > able to do much more than identify alternative proposals for each goal,
    > and kick off an effort to compare/contrast those alternatives.

I agree; I don't need/want to present anything, just point out some ideas
that have developed.

I hope you will leave lots of agenda time for discussion.


--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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From nobody Sun Oct  5 10:13:16 2014
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From: "Mark Baugher (mbaugher)" <mbaugher@cisco.com>
To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [homenet] [Anima] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-09: (with BLOCK)
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Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2014 17:12:53 +0000
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References: <20141002144136.GA1847@cisco.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF5E248@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <D0541C19.4165%acee@cisco.com> <7A9C7BA6-E8DD-48F0-9B0E-CC2F36CBA05A@cisco.com> <D055CF54.4271%acee@cisco.com>
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Cc: "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" <eckert@cisco.com>, Ted Lemon <ted.lemon@nominum.com>, "Leddy, John" <John_Leddy@cable.comcast.com>, "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" <mbehring@cisco.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "homenet@ietf.org" <homenet@ietf.org>, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-09: (with BLOCK)
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From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [homenet] [Anima] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-09: (with BLOCK)
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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-09: (with BLOCK)
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On 10/4/14, 10:16 PM, "Brian E Carpenter" <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On 05/10/2014 09:24, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote:
>> Right - but we still have to agree on the admin or, as you put it,
>> ownership model. At least one of the proposal for autonomic networking
>>is
>> a centralized approach as opposed to configuring a single authentication
>> password on each new device (as one with do with a WiFi network).
>
>Let me check that I understand. Are you saying that there are two basic
>models for enrollment?
>
>1. "Hello, I am Brian. Please enrol me; the shared secret is *!&$=A3@."
>
>2. "Hello, I am Brian. My public key is 12345, and should already
>be in your list. [Signed with my private key.]"

That=B9s basically the trade-off although there are many variations of #2.
Here is one example:

http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures-01.t
xt

The question is what are we willing to accept in the homenet in terms of
both device configuration and device requirements.

Thanks,
Acee=20



>
>    Brian
>


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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-09: (with BLOCK)
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(cc's trimmed. I'm not sure the whole IESG wants this in their inboxen.)

On 06/10/2014 08:51, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote:
>=20
> On 10/4/14, 10:16 PM, "Brian E Carpenter" <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>=

> wrote:
>=20
>> On 05/10/2014 09:24, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote:
>>> Right - but we still have to agree on the admin or, as you put it,
>>> ownership model. At least one of the proposal for autonomic networkin=
g
>>> is
>>> a centralized approach as opposed to configuring a single authenticat=
ion
>>> password on each new device (as one with do with a WiFi network).
>> Let me check that I understand. Are you saying that there are two basi=
c
>> models for enrollment?
>>
>> 1. "Hello, I am Brian. Please enrol me; the shared secret is *!&$=C2=A3=
@."
>>
>> 2. "Hello, I am Brian. My public key is 12345, and should already
>> be in your list. [Signed with my private key.]"
>=20
> That=C2=B9s basically the trade-off although there are many variations =
of #2.
> Here is one example:
>=20
> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures-=
01.txt
>=20
> The question is what are we willing to accept in the homenet in terms o=
f
> both device configuration and device requirements.

Right, thanks. And this is question Anima has to ask for the more general=

case - of course draft-pritikin is a contender.

So, in my opinion, model #1 (a shared secret known to every device)
is pretty weak. It might be acceptable for a small home network
with a very careful human owner, but not beyond that limit. This is exact=
ly
the kind of shared secret that people will write down and lose along with=

their wallet, or simply throw out in their household garbage.
IMHO, for a network of any size or complexity, we need model #2.

   Brian


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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-09: (with BLOCK)
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Hiya,

On 05/10/14 22:55, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> So, in my opinion, model #1 (a shared secret known to every device)
> is pretty weak. It might be acceptable for a small home network
> with a very careful human owner, but not beyond that limit. This is exactly
> the kind of shared secret that people will write down and lose along with
> their wallet, or simply throw out in their household garbage.
> IMHO, for a network of any size or complexity, we need model #2.

Its not a question that needs to be answered now, but I don't see
how model #2 is consistent with the open-source model of doing
stuff. (I'm being intentionally vague there as many devices are
sort-of developed in an open-source manner.)

If there were a way to base things on a PKI for manufacturers that
worked for open-source communities that'd be really good, but I
don't think I've seen such a thing proposed so far.

I'm also very very unsure how model#2 might work in the face of
equipment being end-of-lifed by very small companies or what
happens after a teeny-tiny manufacturer goes bust.

Were the anima (or homenet) WG to try address those questions,
I think that'd be great. (And to repeat, I'm not looking for answers
right now, but just to see that a WG will commit to tackle this.)

S.


From nobody Tue Oct  7 02:00:59 2014
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References: <542BFFAE.1080105@cisco.com> <CD1269E0-96B5-4A1A-8C1C-93DAB44068D4@iki.fi> <542C59B3.10700@gmail.com> <5F26857C-1C41-4D1F-AA4A-B7D9E947180F@townsley.net> <542CC380.1030600@gmail.com> <CAKD1Yr2aK8zzhJXTbbOf=kshQa8gpK4jeCCCn5Enzg-A6L3ZCA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
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Cc: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, "homenet@ietf.org" <homenet@ietf.org>, Markus Stenberg <markus.stenberg@iki.fi>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet]  Homenet feedback on the ANIMA charter
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The charter as written now aims to develop building blocks which can be appl=
ied commonly across a wide range of networks including enterprise, SP, (home=
?), and IOT, yet the very first use-case listed in order to provide WG focus=
 is restricted to carrier-only? (and, to Lorenzo's point, what does that act=
ually mean with respect to IP address assignment?)

If a carrier-only use-case is doing its job of focusing the WG, it will natu=
rally lead to carrier-centric building blocks, contradictory to the stated g=
oal of the group.

- Mark

> On Oct 2, 2014, at 8:26 AM, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com> wrote:
>=20
>> On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 12:16 PM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gma=
il.com> wrote:
>> > This use case is precisely what draft-ietf-homenet-prefix-assignment do=
es (which has roots all the way back to draft-arkko-homenet-prefix-assignmen=
t-00 in October 2011). So to homenet, this is a solved problem - with an alg=
orithm that has been applied not just to HNCP, but to OSPF and ISIS.
>>=20
>> Well, we have a bug in our short description, because the intention is to=

>> support prefix assignment in a carrier scenario, which is different
>> in many ways.=20
>=20
> Really? Which ways?   =20

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div><br></div><div>The charter as written n=
ow aims to develop building blocks which can be applied commonly across a wi=
de range of networks including enterprise, SP, (home?), and IOT, yet the ver=
y first use-case listed in order to provide WG focus is restricted to carrie=
r-only? (and, to Lorenzo's point, what does that actually mean with respect t=
o IP address assignment?)</div><div><br></div><div>If a carrier-only use-cas=
e is doing its job of focusing the WG, it will naturally lead to carrier-cen=
tric building blocks, contradictory to the stated goal of the group.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>- Mark</div><div><br>On Oct 2, 2014, at 8:26 AM, Lorenzo C=
olitti &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lorenzo@google.com">lorenzo@google.com</a>&gt; w=
rote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 12:16 PM=
, Brian E Carpenter <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpente=
r@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wr=
ote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-=
left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"">&gt; This use case is=
 precisely what draft-ietf-homenet-prefix-assignment does (which has roots a=
ll the way back to draft-arkko-homenet-prefix-assignment-00 in October 2011)=
. So to homenet, this is a solved problem - with an algorithm that has been a=
pplied not just to HNCP, but to OSPF and ISIS.<br>
<br>
</span>Well, we have a bug in our short description, because the intention i=
s to<br>
support prefix assignment in a carrier scenario, which is different<br>
in many ways.&nbsp;</blockquote><div><br></div><div>Really? Which ways? &nbs=
p; &nbsp;</div></div></div></div>
</div></blockquote></body></html>=

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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet]  Homenet feedback on the ANIMA charter
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--=-=-=
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Mark Townsley <mark@townsley.net> wrote:
    > The charter as written now aims to develop building blocks which can =
be
    > applied commonly across a wide range of networks including enterprise,
    > SP, (home?), and IOT, yet the very first use-case listed in order to
    > provide WG focus is restricted to carrier-only? (and, to Lorenzo's
    > point, what does that actually mean with respect to IP address
    > assignment?)

    > If a carrier-only use-case is doing its job of focusing the WG, it wi=
ll
    > naturally lead to carrier-centric building blocks, contradictory to t=
he
    > stated goal of the group.

I want to change the word "carrier-only" for "professionally-managed" in yo=
ur
wording, and therefore agree, and say, "Good"

Managed networks, be they in ISPs or industrial IoT settings have different
(perhaps simpler) solutions than in the home.   I think the assumption that
"IoT" implies homenet networks is incorrect: there are lots of IoT which is
not in the home; and I totally agree that managed-solutions are inappropria=
te
in the home.

I don't think one-size fits-all here.

I suggest that ANIMA focus on "professionally-managed" networks first, with
"Homenet" being a secondary consideration, akin to IPv4 is in the homenet W=
G.

=2D-=20
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-




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Cc: "homenet@ietf.org" <homenet@ietf.org>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet]  Homenet feedback on the ANIMA charter
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> On Oct 7, 2014, at 2:44 PM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wro=
te:
>=20
> I suggest that ANIMA focus on "professionally-managed" networks first, wit=
h
> "Homenet" being a secondary consideration, akin to IPv4 is in the homenet W=
G.

I like that suggestion, with a caveat. The caveat being that I think there i=
s room for a "professionally managed" home network as well - something homen=
et to date has touched on,  but for the most part avoided.=20

It should be up to the user to decide to have their home network professiona=
lly managed of course, but as long as that choice is made, a "professionally=
 managed network" WG might be able to provide tooling equally as well for th=
e home as for an enterprise (or SOHO, etc, to Leddy's point). Here is where i=
ncluding what homenet has already done is important for a new WG, if nothing=
 else but to coexist properly between the two solutions. For example, Homene=
t has had to spend quite a bit of cycles dealing with what we think the home=
 network will look like by the time HNCP arrives (Hierarchical DHCPv6-PD,  H=
IPNET, etc.). Anima should be able to make the same consideration for how to=
 operate with HNCP in the network as well - e.g., new "professionally manage=
d" solution when available, "non-managed" via HNCP otherwise.

In terms of scope of work and where it is done, I'm not sure this means the "=
professionally managed home" work should done in anima or homenet WGs, but I=
 do know we shouldn't do it with blinders on.

- Mark=


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From: Mark Townsley <mark@townsley.net>
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Cc: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, "homenet@ietf.org" <homenet@ietf.org>, Markus Stenberg <markus.stenberg@iki.fi>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] Homenet feedback on the ANIMA charter
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> On Oct 2, 2014, at 9:18 PM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com=
> wrote:
>=20
>  but I would expect HNCP to be much sooner than Anima.

Then anima is going to have to deal with HNCP one day in any case. The hando=
ff between the distributed manner in which HNCP carves up and allocates IP p=
refixes will need to mesh with whatever anima comes up with.

The good news is that homenet is far along enough that it has thought about t=
his type of thing, with an algorithm, code, and drafts that include marking i=
ndividual prefixes by manual "or other means" configuration while still supp=
orting automatic determination of subnets that were not otherwise addressed.=
 This is the kind of thing that I want to be sure anima keeps in mind, lest o=
ur worlds collide.

- Mark


>=20
>=20
>>> 2) I am also a little nervous about the IoT reference in the
>>> charter. We haven't yet seen a use case description that would
>>> apply to IoT (which has IMHO a much broader scope than home
>>> networks, e.g. building services.)
>>>=20
>>> I think the initial focus is indeed on enterprise and carrier
>>> networks where the OPEX pain is greatest, but we should not
>>> artificially limit the applicability either.
>>=20
>> I would just say that you aim at enterprise networks and leave it at that=
, then. Considering home networks, and even more so constrained devices in t=
he IoT land have different management model and resources than your typical e=
nterprise devices.
>=20
> Yes, but we are (to be frank) trying to disrupt the current enterprise
> model and I don't want to constrain the thinking by constraining
> the scope.
>=20
>>=20
>>> There are the existing NMRG documents and there will be an
>>> overview document, but we are following quite specific direction
>>> from the ADs about this.
>>=20
>> Well, at least providing links to them in the charter would be probably g=
ood idea then. As it is, it looks like =E2=80=98we have solution, here is th=
e WG=E2=80=99 to me.
>=20
> The NMRG drafts are cited in the charter. We are trying to avoid
> claiming that existing solution proposals *are* the draft solutions,
> because that's the WG's choice to make.
>>=20
>>>> It is not also clear to me how well the suitability of the
>>>> solution has been evaluated. For implementation of some
>>>> autonomic, distributed algorithms, point-to-point negotiation
>>>> protocol such as the suggested solution is far from optimal.
>>>> In case of homenet, we moved from hierarchical DHCPv6 PD
>>>> (point-to-point hierarchy) to a distributed algorithm
>>>> (draft-ietf-homenet-prefix-assignment*) which was result of
>>>> over two years of draft updates, academic proving of
>>>> correctness etc.
>>> There is a subtle point here. The idea is to produce generic
>>> components that do *not* imply specific autonomic algorithms. If
>>> we do it correctly, those components will support either a top
>>> down or a distributed mechanism or even a blend of the two
>>> approaches. So actually the solution choices come later: we
>>> don=E2=80=99t have to decide in advance between top-down and peer-to-pee=
r.
>>=20
>> A protocol (draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol) that is essentially p=
oint-to-point state push/pull mechanism does not seem like natural fit for t=
hat (+- some discovery).
>=20
> Well, I disagree, but that again is a job for the WG.
>=20
>> The scalable solutions with such protocol require hierarchies of delegati=
on. For example, given prefix delegation problem, the reasonable (=3Dlow num=
ber of total message exchanges) solutions wind up subdividing the prefix hie=
rarchically, or alternatively with some =E2=80=98god node=E2=80=99(s) that p=
erform the allocations. It becomes harder if you have multiple sources of sa=
me resource (=3Dprefix) or want to be robust in case of failure.
>=20
> If a resource needs a hierarchy you would contstruct that on top of
> the negotiation protocol, not as an intrinsic feature of the protocol.
>=20
>>>> although it is covered
>>>> only by one mention in the whole charter (and the rest does
>>>> not seem very IoT oriented).
>>> So should we say in the charter that the scope is everything but
>>> the initial focus is enterprise and carrier?
>>=20
>> Or that you are developing enterprise solution and it can work for anythi=
ng with luck.
>=20
> No, not with luck, if we do it right. That would be like saying that
> DHCP(v4) was designed for campus networks but would work for
> home networks with luck.
>=20
>>=20
>>>> Looking at the solutions, from homenet developer / draft
>>>> writer point of view, I would welcome a general trust
>>>> bootstrapping framework. I am not convinced by the current
>>>> solution draft for that (it assumes too many components for a
>>>> home network case at least). A lot of the other things seem
>>>> somewhat enterprise-y (control plane with IPsec, own routing
>>>> protocol and ULAs? Not in IoT device at least, nor probably
>>>> in constrained homenet router), or just unsuitable, such as
>>>> the negotiation protocol that does not seem like a good fit
>>>> for distributed decision making which is usually the key
>>>> thing in autonomic networking.
>>> That means we have explained the negotiation idea badly. It is
>>> not top-down negotiation like
>>> draft-boucadair-network-automation-requirements. It is peer to
>>> peer with top-down as a special case.
>>=20
>> Sure, it is simple =E2=80=98who is there=E2=80=99, =E2=80=99{can I haz X,=
 (yes|no|no but you can have Y)}+=E2=80=99  protocol as far as I can read th=
e draft anyway (draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02)
>=20
> Exactly. And that is pretty close to Turing-complete so it
> could be used very generally.
>=20
>>=20
>> It is not obvious to me how it would be even used to tell other all other=
 nodes about e.g. change in some network parameter (say, NTP server). Is it a=
 =E2=80=98request=E2=80=99? Who is it sent to? How to prevent duplication of=
 sending it to nodes that already did receive it?
>=20
> Yes. I noticed that when considering Rene's comment about state
> synchronization and it needs more work. Nobody is saying that
> it is fully baked yet.
>=20
>>=20
>> =46rom my point of view, a general network infra protocol needs
>>=20
>> - discovery
>> - state push/pull _network wide_
>>=20
>> HNCP does this; I am not sure how CDNP can be used for this, but I welcom=
e examples.
>=20
> It's intentionally peer-to-peer so network-wide requires propagation;
> but I don't understand how HNCP could do some of the other things we
> want. There will be a revised requirements in a forthcoming draft, so
> I'd rather have that discussion later.
>=20
> Let me be clear: if HNCP can be generalised to do what we need (which
> would probably mean changing its name slightly) I'd be delighted.
> There is absolutely nothing to be gained by having two protocols if
> one will work.
>=20
>   Brian
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet]  Homenet feedback on the ANIMA charter
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--=-=-=
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Mark Townsley <mark@townsley.net> wrote:
    >> I suggest that ANIMA focus on "professionally-managed" networks firs=
t,
    >> with "Homenet" being a secondary consideration, akin to IPv4 is in t=
he
    >> homenet WG.

    > I like that suggestion, with a caveat. The caveat being that I think
    > there is room for a "professionally managed" home network as well -
    > something homenet to date has touched on, but for the most part
    > avoided.

Sure;  we have avoided it because I think most see the only professional
nearby being the ISP, and few of *us* professionals want them mucking around
in our home.  That's the personal experience of IETF contributors as
individuals.

However, we also see in our architecture that we expect two be able to get
service from two ISPs, so in the end, our pessimism about the ability of the
ISP professional to manage our home network is legitimate.  There can't be
only one --- cooperation is required.

There are other professional organizations that would like to help manage o=
ur
homes: Apple, Google and Microsoft come to mind.  Yet, even there, we expect
cooperation.   That's why the secure bootstrap problem is more difficult in
the home than it is, in for instance, an oil refinery.

    > It should be up to the user to decide to have their home network
    > professionally managed of course, but as long as that choice is made,=
 a
    > "professionally managed network" WG might be able to provide tooling
    > equally as well for the home as for an enterprise (or SOHO, etc, to
    > Leddy's point). Here is where including what homenet has already done
    > is important for a new WG, if nothing else but to coexist properly
    > between the two solutions. For example, Homenet has had to spend quite
    > a bit of cycles dealing with what we think the home network will look
    > like by the time HNCP arrives (Hierarchical DHCPv6-PD, HIPNET,
    > etc.). Anima should be able to make the same consideration for how to
    > operate with HNCP in the network as well - e.g., new "professionally
    > managed" solution when available, "non-managed" via HNCP otherwise.

    > In terms of scope of work and where it is done, I'm not sure this mea=
ns
    > the "professionally managed home" work should done in anima or homenet
    > WGs, but I do know we shouldn't do it with blinders on.

What do you mean "with blinders on" here?
Usually that means that the horse has blinders to avoid distraction by thin=
gs
that aren't in front of them.   So I think that you mean that professional
managed ideas should be visible to Homenet and ANIMA, but do you really mea=
n:
        ANIMA should pay attention to non-managed networks
        HOMENET should pay attention to managed networks

=2D-=20
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-




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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet]  Homenet feedback on the ANIMA charter
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On 08/10/2014 06:51, Michael Richardson wrote:
> Mark Townsley <mark@townsley.net> wrote:
>     >> I suggest that ANIMA focus on "professionally-managed" networks first,
>     >> with "Homenet" being a secondary consideration, akin to IPv4 is in the
>     >> homenet WG.
> 
>     > I like that suggestion, with a caveat. The caveat being that I think
>     > there is room for a "professionally managed" home network as well -
>     > something homenet to date has touched on, but for the most part
>     > avoided.
> 
> Sure;  we have avoided it because I think most see the only professional
> nearby being the ISP, and few of *us* professionals want them mucking around
> in our home.  That's the personal experience of IETF contributors as
> individuals.

As far as the Anima charter goes (see subject line), we need to use the
use cases to *test* the Anima technical choices (when we make them)
against the real world. So eventually we'd need all kinds of use cases,
which is why the charter mentions a wide scope. But we need to start
with a finite task, which is why the charter mentions a couple
of specific cases.

    Brian


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Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2014 08:18:40 +1300
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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] Homenet feedback on the ANIMA charter
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On 08/10/2014 03:23, Mark Townsley wrote:
>> On Oct 2, 2014, at 9:18 PM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail=
=2Ecom> wrote:
>>
>>  but I would expect HNCP to be much sooner than Anima.
>=20
> Then anima is going to have to deal with HNCP one day in any case. The =
handoff between the distributed manner in which HNCP carves up and alloca=
tes IP prefixes will need to mesh with whatever anima comes up with.

Indeed. It's a given that the anima solutions have to be able to coexist
with what came before.

> The good news is that homenet is far along enough that it has thought a=
bout this type of thing, with an algorithm, code, and drafts that include=
 marking individual prefixes by manual "or other means" configuration whi=
le still supporting automatic determination of subnets that were not othe=
rwise addressed. This is the kind of thing that I want to be sure anima k=
eeps in mind, lest our worlds collide.

The negotiation model we have in mind for anima would allow one device
to refuse a request from another - I think that is sufficient to allow
a resource such as a prefix  to be marked as assigned by another method
and therefore not available for negotiation.

   Brian

> - Mark
>=20
>=20
>>
>>>> 2) I am also a little nervous about the IoT reference in the
>>>> charter. We haven't yet seen a use case description that would
>>>> apply to IoT (which has IMHO a much broader scope than home
>>>> networks, e.g. building services.)
>>>>
>>>> I think the initial focus is indeed on enterprise and carrier
>>>> networks where the OPEX pain is greatest, but we should not
>>>> artificially limit the applicability either.
>>> I would just say that you aim at enterprise networks and leave it at =
that, then. Considering home networks, and even more so constrained devic=
es in the IoT land have different management model and resources than you=
r typical enterprise devices.
>> Yes, but we are (to be frank) trying to disrupt the current enterprise=

>> model and I don't want to constrain the thinking by constraining
>> the scope.
>>
>>>> There are the existing NMRG documents and there will be an
>>>> overview document, but we are following quite specific direction
>>>> from the ADs about this.
>>> Well, at least providing links to them in the charter would be probab=
ly good idea then. As it is, it looks like =E2=80=98we have solution, her=
e is the WG=E2=80=99 to me.
>> The NMRG drafts are cited in the charter. We are trying to avoid
>> claiming that existing solution proposals *are* the draft solutions,
>> because that's the WG's choice to make.
>>>>> It is not also clear to me how well the suitability of the
>>>>> solution has been evaluated. For implementation of some
>>>>> autonomic, distributed algorithms, point-to-point negotiation
>>>>> protocol such as the suggested solution is far from optimal.
>>>>> In case of homenet, we moved from hierarchical DHCPv6 PD
>>>>> (point-to-point hierarchy) to a distributed algorithm
>>>>> (draft-ietf-homenet-prefix-assignment*) which was result of
>>>>> over two years of draft updates, academic proving of
>>>>> correctness etc.
>>>> There is a subtle point here. The idea is to produce generic
>>>> components that do *not* imply specific autonomic algorithms. If
>>>> we do it correctly, those components will support either a top
>>>> down or a distributed mechanism or even a blend of the two
>>>> approaches. So actually the solution choices come later: we
>>>> don=E2=80=99t have to decide in advance between top-down and peer-to=
-peer.
>>> A protocol (draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol) that is essentia=
lly point-to-point state push/pull mechanism does not seem like natural f=
it for that (+- some discovery).
>> Well, I disagree, but that again is a job for the WG.
>>
>>> The scalable solutions with such protocol require hierarchies of dele=
gation. For example, given prefix delegation problem, the reasonable (=3D=
low number of total message exchanges) solutions wind up subdividing the =
prefix hierarchically, or alternatively with some =E2=80=98god node=E2=80=
=99(s) that perform the allocations. It becomes harder if you have multip=
le sources of same resource (=3Dprefix) or want to be robust in case of f=
ailure.
>> If a resource needs a hierarchy you would contstruct that on top of
>> the negotiation protocol, not as an intrinsic feature of the protocol.=

>>
>>>>> although it is covered
>>>>> only by one mention in the whole charter (and the rest does
>>>>> not seem very IoT oriented).
>>>> So should we say in the charter that the scope is everything but
>>>> the initial focus is enterprise and carrier?
>>> Or that you are developing enterprise solution and it can work for an=
ything with luck.
>> No, not with luck, if we do it right. That would be like saying that
>> DHCP(v4) was designed for campus networks but would work for
>> home networks with luck.
>>
>>>>> Looking at the solutions, from homenet developer / draft
>>>>> writer point of view, I would welcome a general trust
>>>>> bootstrapping framework. I am not convinced by the current
>>>>> solution draft for that (it assumes too many components for a
>>>>> home network case at least). A lot of the other things seem
>>>>> somewhat enterprise-y (control plane with IPsec, own routing
>>>>> protocol and ULAs? Not in IoT device at least, nor probably
>>>>> in constrained homenet router), or just unsuitable, such as
>>>>> the negotiation protocol that does not seem like a good fit
>>>>> for distributed decision making which is usually the key
>>>>> thing in autonomic networking.
>>>> That means we have explained the negotiation idea badly. It is
>>>> not top-down negotiation like
>>>> draft-boucadair-network-automation-requirements. It is peer to
>>>> peer with top-down as a special case.
>>> Sure, it is simple =E2=80=98who is there=E2=80=99, =E2=80=99{can I ha=
z X, (yes|no|no but you can have Y)}+=E2=80=99  protocol as far as I can =
read the draft anyway (draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02)
>> Exactly. And that is pretty close to Turing-complete so it
>> could be used very generally.
>>
>>> It is not obvious to me how it would be even used to tell other all o=
ther nodes about e.g. change in some network parameter (say, NTP server).=
 Is it a =E2=80=98request=E2=80=99? Who is it sent to? How to prevent dup=
lication of sending it to nodes that already did receive it?
>> Yes. I noticed that when considering Rene's comment about state
>> synchronization and it needs more work. Nobody is saying that
>> it is fully baked yet.
>>
>>> From my point of view, a general network infra protocol needs
>>>
>>> - discovery
>>> - state push/pull _network wide_
>>>
>>> HNCP does this; I am not sure how CDNP can be used for this, but I we=
lcome examples.
>> It's intentionally peer-to-peer so network-wide requires propagation;
>> but I don't understand how HNCP could do some of the other things we
>> want. There will be a revised requirements in a forthcoming draft, so
>> I'd rather have that discussion later.
>>
>> Let me be clear: if HNCP can be generalised to do what we need (which
>> would probably mean changing its name slightly) I'd be delighted.
>> There is absolutely nothing to be gained by having two protocols if
>> one will work.
>>
>>   Brian
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>=20


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>>> 10th paragraph. First, let me just correct the English:
>>>
>>>      Each proposal should have its own motivation and complete workflow as
>>>      an autonomic process. The design of these proposals should clearly
>>>      target reusability in other use cases. The WG will verify all
>>>      proposed solutions to make sure the components are reusable,
>>>      necessary, and sufficient.
>>>
>>> But even with that done, I'm not at all sure what the above means. Does
>>> the first sentence simply mean that the document should not normatively
>>> reference each other, or is it saying something else?
> Yes, I think the intention is that each case is fully self-contained.
Actually, I don't understand the sentence "Each proposal should have its 
own motivation and complete workflow as an autonomic process." sentence 
myself.

Regards, Benoit


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On 08/10/2014 10:56, Benoit Claise wrote:
> 
>>>> 10th paragraph. First, let me just correct the English:
>>>>
>>>>      Each proposal should have its own motivation and complete
>>>> workflow as
>>>>      an autonomic process. The design of these proposals should clearly
>>>>      target reusability in other use cases. The WG will verify all
>>>>      proposed solutions to make sure the components are reusable,
>>>>      necessary, and sufficient.
>>>>
>>>> But even with that done, I'm not at all sure what the above means. Does
>>>> the first sentence simply mean that the document should not normatively
>>>> reference each other, or is it saying something else?
>> Yes, I think the intention is that each case is fully self-contained.
> Actually, I don't understand the sentence "Each proposal should have its
> own motivation and complete workflow as an autonomic process." sentence
> myself.

I agree. But looking at the -11 version I see another logical glitch
in this area. I suggest:

OLD:
The design of these proposals should clearly target reusability in other use
cases.

In addition, the WG will develop solutions for the following two use cases:

NEW:
The design of these proposals should clearly target reusability.

In addition, the WG will develop solutions for the following two use cases,
to assist in verifying this reusability:

   Brian


From nobody Wed Oct  8 03:26:37 2014
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Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2014 12:26:29 +0200
From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
References: <20141001140456.19325.71821.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <542C10ED.8090204@cisco.com> <542C8225.2090004@gmail.com> <5434617A.9030005@cisco.com> <543480D2.2060707@gmail.com>
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Cc: Pete Resnick <presnick@qti.qualcomm.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Anima] Pete Resnick's No Objection on charter-ietf-anima-00-09: (with COMMENT)
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Hi Brian,

Good catch.

Regards, Benoit
> On 08/10/2014 10:56, Benoit Claise wrote:
>>>>> 10th paragraph. First, let me just correct the English:
>>>>>
>>>>>       Each proposal should have its own motivation and complete
>>>>> workflow as
>>>>>       an autonomic process. The design of these proposals should clearly
>>>>>       target reusability in other use cases. The WG will verify all
>>>>>       proposed solutions to make sure the components are reusable,
>>>>>       necessary, and sufficient.
>>>>>
>>>>> But even with that done, I'm not at all sure what the above means. Does
>>>>> the first sentence simply mean that the document should not normatively
>>>>> reference each other, or is it saying something else?
>>> Yes, I think the intention is that each case is fully self-contained.
>> Actually, I don't understand the sentence "Each proposal should have its
>> own motivation and complete workflow as an autonomic process." sentence
>> myself.
> I agree. But looking at the -11 version I see another logical glitch
> in this area. I suggest:
>
> OLD:
> The design of these proposals should clearly target reusability in other use
> cases.
>
> In addition, the WG will develop solutions for the following two use cases:
>
> NEW:
> The design of these proposals should clearly target reusability.
>
> In addition, the WG will develop solutions for the following two use cases,
> to assist in verifying this reusability:
>
>     Brian
> .
>


From nobody Wed Oct  8 06:04:19 2014
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Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2014 15:04:04 +0200
From: Laurent Ciavaglia <Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>
Organization: Alcatel-Lucent Bell Labs France
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Hi,

Two comments on :
"Definition of a discovery _protocol_ for autonomic _nodes_
  Definition of a negotiation _protocol_ for autonomic _functions_"

     1) the choice of the term "functionality" instead of "protocol" was 
used on purpose as to avoid choosing _a priori_ the (de)composition in 
protocol(s). i.e. one _a posteriori_ / informed decision will be how to 
"group" the different functionality in one or more protocols (or 
extension of existing ones).

     2) for consistency, we should use the same term either "nodes" or 
"functions". function was initially proposed to be most generic, and 
target a finer granularity (cf. section 2 of draft 
autonomic-network-definitions). alternative proposals could be use 
"functions/nodes", or "agents" (but this term is not defined in the 
charter).

Best regards, Laurent.

--------------010800030307060107090709
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<html>
  <head>

    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#333333">
    Hi,<br>
    <br>
    Two comments on :<br>
    "Definition of a discovery <u>protocol</u> for autonomic <u>nodes</u><br>
    Â Definition of a negotiation <u>protocol</u> for autonomic <u>functions</u>"<br>
    <br>
    Â Â Â  1) the choice of the term "functionality" instead of "protocol"
    was used on purpose as to avoid choosing <u>a priori</u> the
    (de)composition in protocol(s). i.e. one <u>a posteriori</u> /
    informed decision will be how to "group" the different functionality
    in one or more protocols (or extension of existing ones).<br>
    <br>
    Â Â Â  2) for consistency, we should use the same term either "nodes"
    or "functions". function was initially proposed to be most generic,
    and target a finer granularity (cf. section 2 of draft
    autonomic-network-definitions). alternative proposals could be use
    "functions/nodes", or "agents" (but this term is not defined in the
    charter).<br>
    <br>
    Best regards, Laurent.<br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------010800030307060107090709--


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--------------050108010207050407090801
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Hi,

Two comments on :
"Definition of a discovery _protocol_ for autonomic _nodes_
  Definition of a negotiation _protocol_ for autonomic _functions_"

     1) the choice of the term "functionality" instead of "protocol" was 
used on purpose as to avoid choosing _a priori_ the (de)composition in 
protocol(s). i.e. one _a posteriori_ / informed decision will be how to 
"group" the different functionality in one or more protocols (or 
extension of existing ones).

     2) for consistency, we should use the same term either "nodes" or 
"functions". function was initially proposed to be most generic, and 
target a finer granularity (cf. section 2 of draft 
autonomic-network-definitions). alternative proposals could be to use 
both such as "autonomic functions/nodes", or "agents" (but this term is 
not defined in the charter).

Best regards, Laurent.

--------------050108010207050407090801
Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

<html>
  <head>

    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#333333">
    Hi,<br>
    <br>
    Two comments on :<br>
    "Definition of a discovery <u>protocol</u> for autonomic <u>nodes</u><br>
    Â Definition of a negotiation <u>protocol</u> for autonomic <u>functions</u>"<br>
    <br>
    Â Â Â  1) the choice of the term "functionality" instead of "protocol"
    was used on purpose as to avoid choosing <u>a priori</u> the
    (de)composition in protocol(s). i.e. one <u>a posteriori</u> /
    informed decision will be how to "group" the different functionality
    in one or more protocols (or extension of existing ones).<br>
    <br>
    Â Â Â  2) for consistency, we should use the same term either "nodes"
    or "functions". function was initially proposed to be most generic,
    and target a finer granularity (cf. section 2 of draft
    autonomic-network-definitions). alternative proposals could be to
    use both such as "autonomic functions/nodes", or "agents" (but this
    term is not defined in the charter).<br>
    <br>
    Best regards, Laurent.<br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------050108010207050407090801--


From nobody Wed Oct  8 09:14:02 2014
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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: ANIMA conference call
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Cc: 'Hesham ElBakoury' <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>, "'Henderickx, Wim \(Wim\)'" <wim.henderickx@alcatel-lucent.com>, Dean Bogdanovic <deanb@juniper.net>, "Fuyu \(Eleven\)" <eleven.fuyu@huawei.com>, "'Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com'" <Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>
Subject: [Anima] Canceled: ANIMA conference call
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Several people are not available tomorrow, so let's cancel this call.

Michael

--

This call is to discuss the ANIMA charter and next steps.
The meeting will be recorded.
It is an official IETF meeting, and the "note well" applies to this meeting=
.

Michael


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<div><font color=3D"#666666">Michael</font></div>
<div><font color=3D"#666666">&nbsp;</font></div>
<div><font color=3D"#666666">--</font></div>
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From nobody Thu Oct  9 01:19:21 2014
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Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2014 10:19:05 +0200
From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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Hi Laurent,


> Hi,
>
> Two comments on :
> "Definition of a discovery _protocol_ for autonomic _nodes_
>  Definition of a negotiation _protocol_ for autonomic _functions_"
>
>     1) the choice of the term "functionality" instead of "protocol" 
> was used on purpose as to avoid choosing _a priori_ the 
> (de)composition in protocol(s). i.e. one _a posteriori_ / informed 
> decision will be how to "group" the different functionality in one or 
> more protocols (or extension of existing ones).
Understood.
I changed it back to "functionality", but I changed "definition" to 
"specification" to make sure people understand there is some sort of 
specs behind this item.
>
>     2) for consistency, we should use the same term either "nodes" or 
> "functions". function was initially proposed to be most generic, and 
> target a finer granularity (cf. section 2 of draft 
> autonomic-network-definitions). alternative proposals could be to use 
> both such as "autonomic functions/nodes", or "agents" (but this term 
> is not defined in the charter).
Agreed.
Changed to "function"

Thanks and regards, Benoit
>
> Best regards, Laurent.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi Laurent,<br>
      <br>
      <br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:54353F87.40503@alcatel-lucent.com" type="cite">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
        charset=ISO-8859-1">
      Hi,<br>
      <br>
      Two comments on :<br>
      "Definition of a discovery <u>protocol</u> for autonomic <u>nodes</u><br>
      &nbsp;Definition of a negotiation <u>protocol</u> for autonomic <u>functions</u>"<br>
      <br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1) the choice of the term "functionality" instead of
      "protocol" was used on purpose as to avoid choosing <u>a priori</u>
      the (de)composition in protocol(s). i.e. one <u>a posteriori</u>
      / informed decision will be how to "group" the different
      functionality in one or more protocols (or extension of existing
      ones).<br>
    </blockquote>
    Understood.<br>
    I changed it back to "functionality", but I changed "definition" to
    "specification" to make sure people understand there is some sort of
    specs behind this item.<br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:54353F87.40503@alcatel-lucent.com" type="cite">
      <br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2) for consistency, we should use the same term either "nodes"
      or "functions". function was initially proposed to be most
      generic, and target a finer granularity (cf. section 2 of draft
      autonomic-network-definitions). alternative proposals could be to
      use both such as "autonomic functions/nodes", or "agents" (but
      this term is not defined in the charter).<br>
    </blockquote>
    Agreed.<br>
    Changed to "function"<br>
    <br>
    Thanks and regards, Benoit<br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:54353F87.40503@alcatel-lucent.com" type="cite">
      <br>
      Best regards, Laurent.<br>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
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Subject: [Anima] ANIMA charter: status update
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Dear all,

 From the minutes of the October 2, 2014 IESG Teleconference

      o Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach (anima) - 4 of 4
         Area: OPS (Benoit Claise)

    The IESG approved the draft WG charter for IETF review pending edits to
    the text of the charter to be supplied by Benoit Claise.  The
    Secretariat will send a WG Review announcement, with a separate message
    tonew-work@ietf.org.

I updated the ANIMA charter based on the IESG feedback.
See https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/

I have NOT included any of the HOMENET related feedback at this point.
My goal is to listen to all feedback during the external review period, 
and then to decide which of the WG or the second BoF is the most 
appropriate next step. Reminder: a slot has been secured in the agenda.
The discussion with HOMENET (and any other WG or potentially SDO) is 
both healthy and necessary.

Regards, Benoit

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    Dear all,<br>
    <br>
    From the minutes of the October 2, 2014 IESG Teleconference<br>
    <blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""> o Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach (anima) - 4 of 4
    Area: OPS (Benoit Claise)

The IESG approved the draft WG charter for IETF review pending edits to 
the text of the charter to be supplied by Benoit Claise.  The 
Secretariat will send a WG Review announcement, with a separate message 
to <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:new-work@ietf.org">new-work@ietf.org</a>.</pre>
    </blockquote>
    I updated the ANIMA charter based on the IESG feedback.<br>
    See <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/</a><br>
    <br>
    I have NOT included any of the HOMENET related feedback at this
    point.<br>
    My goal is to listen to all feedback during the external review
    period, and then to decide which of the WG or the second BoF is the
    most appropriate next step. Reminder: a slot has been secured in the
    agenda.<br>
    The discussion with HOMENET (and any other WG or potentially SDO) is
    both healthy and necessary.<br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit<br>
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Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2014 11:54:07 +0200
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To: Laurent Ciavaglia <Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>, Markus Stenberg <markus.stenberg@iki.fi>
References: <542BFFAE.1080105@cisco.com> <CD1269E0-96B5-4A1A-8C1C-93DAB44068D4@iki.fi> <542D422F.1090302@cisco.com> <542D4BAB.2060009@alcatel-lucent.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] Homenet feedback on the ANIMA charter
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On 02/10/2014 14:57, Laurent Ciavaglia wrote:
> Dear Benoit, Markus, all,
>
> On 02/10/2014 14:16, Benoit Claise wrote:
>> On 01/10/2014 18:27, Markus Stenberg wrote:
>>
>>> Notably, adoption of a solution (discovery+negotiation protocol) before adoption of use cases seems like putting cart before the horse.
>> Valid point.
>>
>> Regards, Benoit
>
> Indeed a valid point, however before concluding here, some insights 
> might help:
>     -OPS ADs gave guidance to focus on (applicability on) 2 use cases 
> only.
>     -The solution adoption milestone shall read as _applicability_ of 
> the protocols onto the two proposed/elected use cases (the milestone 
> should be rewritten in that sense for more clarity).
>     -The WG aims at developing protocols reusable _among __multiple_ 
> use cases.
>     -An initial step of the WG should be to extract, from these 
> multiple use cases, the boundaries / problems these protocols have to 
> solve.
The charter has been updated to reflect this.

Regards, Benoit
>
>
> HTH, best regards, Laurent.
>


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 02/10/2014 14:57, Laurent Ciavaglia
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:542D4BAB.2060009@alcatel-lucent.com"
      type="cite">
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      Dear Benoit, Markus, all,<br>
      <br>
      <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 02/10/2014 14:16, Benoit Claise
        wrote:<br>
      </div>
      <blockquote cite="mid:542D422F.1090302@cisco.com" type="cite">
        <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 01/10/2014 18:27, Markus
          Stenberg wrote:<br>
        </div>
        <br>
        <blockquote
          cite="mid:CD1269E0-96B5-4A1A-8C1C-93DAB44068D4@iki.fi"
          type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">Notably, adoption of a solution (discovery+negotiation protocol) before adoption of use cases seems like putting cart before the horse.</pre>
        </blockquote>
        Valid point.<br>
        <br>
        Regards, Benoit</blockquote>
      <br>
      Indeed a valid point, however before concluding here, some
      insights might help:<br>
          -OPS ADs gave guidance to focus on (applicability on) 2 use
      cases only.<br>
          -The solution adoption milestone shall read as <u>applicability</u>
      of the protocols onto the two proposed/elected use cases (the
      milestone should be rewritten in that sense for more clarity). <br>
          -The WG aims at developing protocols reusable <u>among </u><u>multiple</u>
      use cases.
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          -An initial step of the WG should be to extract, from these
      multiple use cases, the boundaries / problems these protocols have
      to solve. <br>
    </blockquote>
    The charter has been updated to reflect this.<br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit<br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:542D4BAB.2060009@alcatel-lucent.com"
      type="cite"> <br>
      <br>
      HTH, best regards, Laurent.<br>
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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--------------020600080702020401090903--


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State changed to External review.

URL: http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/


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Subject: [Anima] WG Review: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach (anima)
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The Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach (anima) working
group in the Operations and Management Area of the IETF is undergoing
rechartering. The IESG has not made any determination yet. The following
draft charter was submitted, and is provided for informational purposes
only. Please send your comments to the IESG mailing list (iesg at
ietf.org) by 2014-10-19.

Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach (anima)
------------------------------------------------
Current Status: BOF WG

Assigned Area Director:
  Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>

Mailing list
  Address: anima@ietf.org
  To Subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
  Archive: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/

Charter:

Autonomic networking refers to the self-managing characteristics
(configuration, protection, healing, and optimization) of distributed
network elements, adapting to unpredictable changes while hiding
intrinsic complexity from operators and users. Autonomic Networking,
which often involves closed-loop control, is applicable to the complete
network (functions) lifecycle (e.g. installation, commissioning,
operating, etc). An autonomic function works in a distributed way across
various network elements, but allowing central guidance and reporting,
and co-existence with non-autonomic methods of management. The general
objective of this working group is to enable the progressive introduction
of autonomic functions into operational networks, as well as reusable
autonomic network infrastructure, in order to reduce the OpEx.

This work build on definitions and design goals, as well as a simple
architecture model undertaken in the Network Management Research Group
(NMRG) of the IRTF.

Elements of autonomic functions already exist today. However, all such
functions today have their own discovery, node identification,
negotiation, transport, messaging and security mechanisms as well as
non-autonomic management interfaces. There is no common infrastructure
for distributed functions. This leads to inefficiencies. Additionally,
management and optimisation of operational device configurations is
expensive, tedious, and prone to human error.  A simple example is
assigning address prefixes to network segments in a large and constantly
changing network. Similarly, repair or bypassing of faults requires human
intervention and causes significant down time. 

This WG is intended to mitigate this duplication of similar mechanisms
and heavy dependency on human actions, in particular by facilitating
secure closed-loop interaction directly between network elements to
satisfy management intent. 
This motivates the introduction of a control paradigm where network
processes, driven by objectives (or intent), coordinate their local
decisions, autonomically translate them into local actions, and adapt
them automatically according to various sources of information including
external information and protocol information bases. 

While a complete solution for full autonomic networking is an ambitious
goal, the initial scope of this working group's effort is much more
modest: the specification of  a minimum set of specific reusable
infrastructure components to support autonomic interactions between
devices, and to specify the application of these components to one or two
elementary use cases of general value. Practically, these components
should be capable of providing the following services to those
distributed functions: 
o a common way to identify nodes
o a common security model
o a discovery mechanism
o a negotiation mechanism to enable closed-loop interaction
o a secure and logically separated communications channel
o a consistent autonomic management model

Where suitable protocols, models or methods exist, they will be preferred
over creating new ones. 

It is preferred that autonomic functions would co-exist with traditional
methods of management and configuration, and the initial focus would be
on self-configuration. Future work may include a more detailed systems
architecture to support the development of autonomic service agents. The
ANIMA working group will initially focus on enterprise, ISP networks and
IoT. Like traditional network management, the topological scope of
autonomic functions is expected to be limited by administrative
boundaries.

The goals of this working group are below. The were selected to according
to the analyzed technical gaps in draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis: 
o Specification of a discovery functionality for autonomic functions
o Specification of a negotiation functionality for autonomic functions
   Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol 
o Specification of a solution to bootstrap a trust infrastructure 
   Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures 
o Specification of a solution for a separated Autonomic Control Plane
   Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane 

The design of these proposals should clearly target reusability. 

In addition, the WG will validate the application and reusability of the
components to the following two use cases:
o A solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management within a network.
Although prefix delegation is currently supported, it relies on human
action to subdivide and assign prefixes according to local requirements,
and this process could become autonomic.
o A solution for always-on, data plane independent connectivity between
network elements (i.e., stable in the case of mis-configurations), which
can be used for call home, network  provisioning, or simply
trouble-shooting. 

It is essential that these components and solutions fit together as an
integrated whole. For this reason, an reference document will be
developed in parallel with the individual specifications.

The initial set of work items is limited to the above list to stay
focused and avoid "boiling the ocean". Additional documents concerning
other autonomic infrastructure components, policy intent, use cases or
autonomic service agents are strongly encouraged, as individual
submissions, or as submissions to the IRTF Network Network Management
Research Group. Additional work items may only be added with 
approval from the responsible Area Director or by re-chartering. 

Milestones

Mar 2015 - Adoption of initial drafts on AN components:
                  Discovery and negotiation protocol(s)
                  Bootstrap a trust infrastructure solution
                  Autonomic control plane solution
Jul 2015 - Adoption of reference model 
Jul 2015 - Adoption of the two validation drafts
Apr 2016 - Submit discovery and negotiation protocol(s) to IESG
(Standards Track)
Apr 2016 - Submit bootstrap a trust infrastructure solution to IESG
(Standards Track)
Sep 2016 - Submit the two validation drafts to IESG (Informational)
Sep 2016 - Submit autonomic control plane solution to IESG (Standards
Track)
Dec 2016 - Submit reference model to IESG (Informational)
Dec 2016 - Recharter if needed, or close




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Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2014 17:02:03 +1300
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: [Anima] [Fwd: IETF 91 Preliminary Agenda]
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Note that anima is scheduled (as a BOF, but in theory it could become
a WG by then) on MONDAY, November 10, 2014 at 15:20 HST, running
through 18:30 so we should have plenty of time for discussion.

The draft Agenda is due by 2014-10-27, and so are all I-Ds that might
be discussed. There is a first draft agenda already in the BOF wiki:
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/#ANIMAApprovedforIETF91

This is a public service announcement - the chairs are still TBD.

   Brian

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: IETF 91 Preliminary Agenda
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2014 15:46:12 -0700
From: IETF Agenda <agenda@ietf.org>
Reply-To: IETF Agenda <agenda@ietf.org>
To: IETF Announcement List <ietf-announce@ietf.org>
CC: ietf@ietf.org


The IETF 91 Preliminary Agenda has been posted. The final agenda will be published on Friday, October 17th, 2014.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/91/agenda.html
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/91/agenda.txt

More information regarding IETF 91 in Honolulu, Hawaii is located here: https://www.ietf.org/meeting/91/index.html

Thank you!

IETF Secretariat


From nobody Mon Oct 13 12:13:38 2014
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Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 08:13:30 +1300
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Subject: [Anima] [Fwd: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-00.txt]
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This draft replaces draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03 and
draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol-02.

It's only a proposal and everything is subject to change.

   Brian

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-00.txt
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2014 00:12:09 -0700
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.


        Title           : A Generic Discovery and Negotiation Protocol for Autonomic Networking
        Authors         : Brian Carpenter
                          Sheng Jiang
                          Bing Liu
	Filename        : draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-00.txt
	Pages           : 37
	Date            : 2014-10-13

Abstract:
   This document defines a new protocol that enables intelligent devices
   to dynamically discover peer devices, to synchronize state with them,
   and to negotiate mutual configurations with them.  This document only
   defines a general protocol as a negotiation platform, while the
   negotiation objectives for specific scenarios are to be described in
   separate documents.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-00


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

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	filename="ANIMA call - IETF91 Preparation 1 -00.ppt"; size=153600;
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	modification-date="Tue, 14 Oct 2014 01:29:25 GMT"
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--_003_5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF638BBnkgeml512mbxchi_--


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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Notes from the ANIMA call
Thread-Index: Ac/pUB4TgBhOtfc+RsCZOLoXnXpzuw==
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Subject: [Anima] Notes from the ANIMA call
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Below are the notes from today's meeting.=20

The recording is here:=20
https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/lsr.php?RCID=3Df34671454f3d4336842cf6ede=
ef4afd4

Michael

--

ANIMA Call
16 Oct 2014

Attendees: Rene Struik, JF Tremblay, Sheng Jiang, Toerless Eckert, Yu Fung,=
 Michael Behringer (notes)

Action list:=20
- by oct 26th: Submit draft-author-anima-* drafts.
- by nov 3rd: Draft BoF/WG agenda.

WG/BoF meeting request status:=20
- see datatracker charter. version 14 is latest.=20
  now in external review, ends oct 19th.
  no comments since external review. Need to discuss with homenet group.
- Meeting time confirmed (see IETF agenda)
  Monday 1520-1720 and 1730-1830

NMRG documents:=20
- gap analysis and definitions draft have new versions since oct 2/3rd
- are in RG last call. Ends oct 27th.=20
  Rene points out that this deadline coincides with deadline for IETF draft=
 submission.=20
  Michael: Should we extend the deadline?=20
  Conclusion: Let's see how many comments we get by the deadline, if not en=
ough, expand by a week or so.=20

ANIMA drafts: MUST HAVE
- new doc: draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol
- draft-X-anima-trust-bootstrap (who is responsible for that? Michael to gi=
ve a name)
- draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane (Michael responsible, will =
post soon).=20
- draft-behringer-anima-reference-model (Michael responsible - will be post=
ed soon)
DESIRABLE:=20
- draft-X-anima-prefix-management (Sheng/Brian responsible; not sure they c=
an meet deadline).=20
- draft-X-anima-virtual-out-of-band (Toerless responsible)
  (double-check the doc mentioned in the charter has the right name)
Other drafts planned?=20
- Rene: If he has time, he'll post a short draft. (If so, will be shortly b=
efore the cut-off)
- if any other drafts are planned, please let the group know.=20

Rene: Benoit posted the external review for 10 days instead of two weeks? S=
heng: Not clear.=20
Rene: On homenet, there was a related discussion, but not cross-posted to a=
nima. Someone should
forward the main points to ANIMA.=20
Michael: Should we reach out to homenet and ask for the feedback?=20
Sheng: If there is no feedback, we assume there is no problem.=20
Michael: Not so sure about that...=20
Sheng: Another new WG was proposed, and there was also no feedback.=20
Michael: Will ask Benoit how he will interpret no feedback: "No problem", o=
r "need more time"?

Next call: 23 oct 2014, 6am GMT


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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: Rene Struik <rstruik.ext@gmail.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] review of draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane-00
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Subject: Re: [Anima] review of draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane-00
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Rene,=20

Apologies, when I posted draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane I ov=
erlooked this mail, so your suggestions are not yet in this version. I'll t=
ake them on in the next version.=20

Michael

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rene Struik
> Sent: 18 September 2014 01:45
> To: anima@ietf.org
> Subject: [Anima] review of draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane-00
>=20
> Dear colleagues:
>=20
> Please find below my initial comments on
> draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane-00
>=20
> 1. Summary:
> The draft discusses a mechanism for networking that presumably can
> operate in parallel to ordinary network operation and is able to operate
> without configuration.
>=20
> 2. General comments:
> a) The idea of autonomic control plane relies on group membership notions
> evidenced by a so-called domain certificate. It is unclear what the
> ramifications of this approach are, in terms of provisioning, coordinatio=
n,
> and pre-planning cost, and in terms of deployment flexibility of devices
> throughout their lifetime. The notion could possibly work with quite stat=
ic
> networks; however, the comparison with other mechanisms for
> implementing group membership notions require consideration. It is hard
> to see how this notion could work with more dynamic topologies or where
> flexible deployment is required. Certificate management aspects (e.g., ke=
y
> validity, revocation) also require lots of attention, as well as manufact=
uring
> aspects (should certs be generated during manufacturing) {since one shoul=
d
> know where a device will be deployed before issuing the cert}.
> b) The autonomic control plane concept seems to require adoption of the
> concepts in another draft
> (draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures-00) to work.
>=20
> 3. Specific comments:
>=20
> Section 1:
> 1) Third para (bottom of p. 1): It would help to elaborate on what
> "independent of configuration, addressing and routing problems" means.
> Does this mean one wishes the "autonomic contorl plane" (ACP) protocol to
> be independent of routing addressing schemes that may be topology-
> dependent and independent of any routing tables? Please elaborate.
> 2) First para of p. 2: While the cross-referencing to another draft with
> common authors (draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures-00) is
> given seemingly simply "as an example", it seems hard to evaluate this dr=
aft
> on its own merits without considering that other cross-referenced draft a=
t
> the same time. This complicates the review and makes the task of seeing
> whether certain designs all have to be used simultaneously or not at all,=
 or
> whether these cover modules that are largely independent arduous. I
> would prefer untangling of lots of the nmrg drafts, which now often cross=
-
> reference each other. To reach an informed opinion, I had to read them al=
l,
> rather than being able to read these as drafts that mostly stood on their
> own. I feel this discourages inviting comments from the community at larg=
e.
> 3) The idea of the autonomic control plane seems to be to similar to the =
"dry
> run" option expressed in draft-jiang-config-negotiation-ps-03 (see my
> general review remark #b on that draft), in the sense that one can run th=
e
> ACP network in an otherwise operational network. This does sound more
> like a logical flow separation issue, where the operational network and t=
he
> "ACP network" version run in "different colors". This could be realized i=
f
> one could have more than one instantiation of a protocol running at the
> same time, with logical separation being provided by color coding
> messaging and configuration data. I can see how this could be realized if
> one deals with direct neighbors in the "ACP color" (since then routing is
> effectively non-existent), but had trouble to understand if one wishes to
> communicate with a more remote "ACP node" (or, more precisely, a node
> that allows ACP-instantiated traffic). At the same time, at the local non=
-
> routing level, can't one already communicate on the local direct neighbor
> level using existing techniques? (If not, one should explain this in the
> draft.)
>=20
> Section 2:
> 4) First bullet: replace "bootstrapping of a device today" by "bootstrapp=
ing
> of a device today typically" (after all, not all existing networks today =
require
> execution of network formation in a carefully preplanned order and with
> lots of coordination [lots of well-designed sensor networks can form in
> virtually any order, almost without human intervention]).
> 5) First bullet: do I have to (sadly) conclude there is absolutely no IET=
F
> protocol out there where where network formation can happen in a more
> organic manner? {sorry - I do not know all the zillions of RFCs by heart.=
}
> After all, even if a joining device has to authenticate to the network, a=
ny
> public-key based authenticated key agreement scheme can run over any
> channel (secured or not), so having UDP and a network sink seems to suffi=
ce
> (can't one use DTLS, here?). This makes me wonder (if my sad conclusion
> actually does hold) what this bottleneck is:
> addressing scheme, authorization issues, pure insanity? The current draft=
,
> unfortunately, does not elaborate on the current show-stoppers, except to
> suggest that one somehow needs console access. It would be extremely
> beneficial to give this more elaborate insight. {This makes me wonder how
> the internet recovers if one blows part of the network away and tries to
> reform what is left ("survivability", "failure recovery").}
> 6) Third bullet: add full-stop at the end of the first line.
>=20
> Section 3:
> 7) Section 3.2, second para: replace "an globally" by "a globally".
> 8) Section 3.2, second para: one should add some verbiage re privacy
> implications of the adjacency discovery mechanism. (Note: on a more
> general note, it is hard to find any reference to privacy considerations,
> tracking, traceability, anonymity in any of the nmrg-related drafts.)
> 9) Section 3.2, bulletized list: I wonder how any automatic mechanism may
> derive any notion of "trust" and validity hereof. This should be clarifie=
d.(Or,
> does one simply imply that whatever has a certificate issued by a specifi=
c CA
> is automatically "trusted"??)
> 10) Section 3.3: this section seems to assume that devices that have a
> "domain" certificate issued by the same CA are to be mutually trusted.
> While one can indeed use this (very coarse-grained) mechanism for
> evidencing membership of the same group ("domain"), this is not a priori
> provide for autonomic networking, at least not without carefully articula=
ting
> first how these should be issued, what preplanning and coordination this
> requires and what the impact is on flexibility of deployment. This should
> then be compared with alternatives, such as the use of group keys in the
> example of a network with a network manager who keeps a repository of
> device identifiers and provides triage on network access via, e.g., a whi=
te
> list.
> 11) Section 3.3: if one where to use domain identities, these could also =
be
> realized via attribute certs, rather than device certs. This would have t=
he
> advantage of separating the CA role from the domain-mapping role (which
> could be implemented more locally).
> 12) Section 3.3: domain certificate validation by itself does not establi=
sh
> group membership (since any device can send this publicly known string);
> use of the private key (aka "key possession") is required too. I suggest
> making this more clear in the draft.
> 13) Section 3.3, p. 5 (last bullet): if checking whether a certificate is=
 invalid
> or expired requires 3rd party assistance (e.g., to implement OCSP, CRL, o=
r
> securely synchronize time) this protocol may no longer be autonomic. By
> group membership depend on CA-issued "domain"
> certificates, one almost automatically forces this scenario, unless one
> ignores key validity lifetime issues and issues certs with "eternal life"=
.
> 14) Section 3.4: one should define the concept of GRE tunnels. Moreover,
> wouldn't one loose potential interoperability and invite configuration
> issues by suggesting a plethora of options for establishing and maintaini=
ng a
> secure channel here (IPSec, "GRE tunnels", etc.)?
> 15) Section 3.5: if one does not wish to depend on link configured
> addresses, can't one use cryptographically generated addresses instead?
> 16) Section 3.5: as already said before (see remark #3), it is unclear ho=
w
> routing over more than one hop is realized.
> 17) Section 3.5: one should explain what 802.1q tags are and which useful
> functions these could provide in the context of ACP networking.
> 18) Section 3.6: The main benefit of having an ACP networking options (fo=
r
> "emergency" purposes) seems to be that one does not necessarily need to
> use lots of configuration that, while useful for routing of ordinary traf=
fic,
> does not really matter too much for non-throughput/non-time latency
> optimized communications, such as for network diagnostics by qualified
> personnel. If correct, I would suggest some verbiage explaining this
> philosophy in more detail. (Even if incorrect, I would still suggest to a=
dd
> more explanation here.)
> 19) Section 3.7: It is unclear why one needs another address in ACP
> context: the "domain" is already in the domain certificate; why can't one
> use a cryptographically generated address? Why does one need to have the
> same prefix for all domain devices (since ACP networking is defined from
> scratch and no routing approach is defined, there does not seem to be any
> need to stick to IPv6 address formats with 64-bit prefixes (which, again,
> codifies topology dependent information!).
> 20) Section 3.8: it is unclear who/what has domain control for propagatio=
n of
> routing information.
> 21) Section 3.8, top of p. 7: it would be good to add some more backgroun=
d
> as to why RPL as a routing protocol would be a suitable candidate for
> autonomic networking, what the dependency is on the addressing scheme
> suggested in Section 3.7 and whether, e.g., different instantiations of R=
PL
> can run at the same time (this would be of interest should one wish to us=
e
> ACP concept in a constrained network setting that already uses RPL for
> ordinary networking). As an aside: the RPL specification [RFC 6550] does =
not
> include key management functionality, so it would be of interest to see
> whether what this draft proposes can fill in part of this void...
>=20
> Section 4:
> 22) First bullet: it would help to have some insight in case of anomalies=
,
> such as "what happens if tables are full".
> 23) Third bullet: this raises the question as to scope and lifecycle aspe=
cts of
> domain certificates (see also remark #13).
>=20
> Section 5:
> 24) second line: replace "been authenticated" by "authenticated" (i.e.,
> remove the second occurrence of "been").
> 25) second para: one should add some verbiage that denial of service
> attacks are still possible, since any device can present whichever certif=
icate
> (a public string) to any other device. See also remark #12 above.
> 26) third para: the use of link local addresses prevents scalability of A=
CP
> beyond a specific topology.
> 27) third para: the use of domain certificates necessitates re-issuance o=
f
> certificates once a domain changes.
> 28) third para: Any device can spoof a link-local address, thereby still
> presenting the potential to execute attacks (use tunnel to compromised
> domain node and then inject traffic with seemingly okay looking link-loca=
l
> address, etc., etc.)
>=20
> Section 6:
> 29) first bullet: As already said, the use of domain certificates to evid=
ence
> group membership has some hidden cost that should be elaborated upon in
> greater detail, in terms of preplanning, coordination, etc. See also rema=
rk
> #10 above.
> 30) first bullet: the suggestion that the use of domain certificates allo=
ws
> shipment of devices without any need for pre-provisioning seems,
> unfortunately, incorrect. Au contraire: one needs to decide in which doma=
in
> a new device should be deployed prior to shipping, issue a certificate fo=
r
> that domain, install this into the device, all prior to shipment. In addi=
tion, if
> one wishes to deploy the shipped device with another domain (i.e., one
> changes one's mind), one has to re-issue a cert for the new domain. With
> device certs that are not domain specific, one can simply populate a whit=
e
> list table locally at the network manager and use this white list to arbi=
trage
> network access.
>=20
> Section 7:
> 31) first sentence: the ACP design heavily depends on a CA that can issue
> domain-specific certificates and, essentially, administers the network
>=20
> --
> email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
> cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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Subject: [Anima] Fwd: [nmrg] Last Call
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Dear all,

Since those two NMRG documents are ANIMA building blocks, please provide 
some feedback during the last-call.

Regards, Benoit


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	[nmrg] Last Call
Date: 	Mon, 13 Oct 2014 09:06:43 -0700
From: 	Lisandro Zambenedetti Granville <granville@inf.ufrgs.br>
To: 	<nmrg@irtf.org>



Dear NMRG

This message is to start a two week last call (LC) on the following NMRG documents on autonomics in network management:

. draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-02.txt
   https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis/

. draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions-04.txt
   http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions/

Please review the documents and provide your feedback in this two week window. This last calls ends in Oct. 27th.

Lisandro and Olivier

_______________________________________________
nmrg mailing list
nmrg@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/nmrg




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    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1">
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    Dear all,<br>
    <br>
    Since those two NMRG documents are ANIMA building blocks, please
    provide some feedback during the last-call.<br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit<br>
    <div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
      <br>
      -------- Original Message --------
      <table class="moz-email-headers-table" cellpadding="0"
        cellspacing="0" border="0">
        <tbody>
          <tr>
            <th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">Subject:
            </th>
            <td>[nmrg] Last Call</td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">Date: </th>
            <td>Mon, 13 Oct 2014 09:06:43 -0700</td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">From: </th>
            <td>Lisandro Zambenedetti Granville
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:granville@inf.ufrgs.br">&lt;granville@inf.ufrgs.br&gt;</a></td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">To: </th>
            <td><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nmrg@irtf.org">&lt;nmrg@irtf.org&gt;</a></td>
          </tr>
        </tbody>
      </table>
      <br>
      <br>
      <pre>Dear NMRG

This message is to start a two week last call (LC) on the following NMRG documents on autonomics in network management:

. draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-02.txt
  <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis/</a>

. draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions-04.txt
  <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions/</a>

Please review the documents and provide your feedback in this two week window. This last calls ends in Oct. 27th.

Lisandro and Olivier

_______________________________________________
nmrg mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:nmrg@irtf.org">nmrg@irtf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/nmrg">https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/nmrg</a>

</pre>
      <br>
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    <br>
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--------------080907020403010603040706--


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From nobody Wed Oct 22 19:21:59 2014
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Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2014 22:21:38 -0400
From: Rene Struik <rstruik.ext@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Agenda for ANIMA weekly Webex meeting - IETF91 Preparation #2
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Hi Sheng:

I would like to request 15 minutes for a presentation at IETF-91.

In case Anima makes it to WG prior to IETF-91, this will relate to 
generic synchronization;
in case we have another BoF, I would like to weigh-in to what (I think) 
suitable design objectives are for this group, so as to help improving 
the charter and prioritize milestones.

Potential drafts are still pending, but I thought to give you a heads up.

Best regards, Rene

On 10/22/2014 9:46 PM, Sheng Jiang wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> Today's weekly call is 6:00am GMT, 23/10/2014.
>
> Access link: https://cisco.webex.com/cisco/j.php?MTID=m03c593fe104ebb37b784bf1d80096c15
>
> For now, we have not yet been informed whether our ANIMA meeting in IETF91 will be a WG-forming BOF or a first WG meeting, and we don't know who will be chairing it. So actually nobody can officially plan the agenda.
>
> So, today's preparation call is expected to be short, only update the status of drafts preparation/submission.
>
> Please find attached a proposal for our Webex meeting - IETF91 Preparation #2 (in both ppt and pdf). In short, we will go through:
>
>   - Calling comments for NMRG autonomic network documents (status)
>   - draft-author-anima-*-00 drafts (status & actions)
>
> Please be aware all coming drafts are individual drafts. They are NOT going to be adopted by default. Future adoption must be made by only WG consensus.
>
> In case of problems, please contact the meeting organizers (Michael, Brian, Laurent and myself).
>
> Best regards,
>
> Sheng
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


-- 
email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363


--------------040204040808030807050506
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<html>
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    <meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
      http-equiv="Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi Sheng:<br>
      <br>
      I would like to request 15 minutes for a presentation at IETF-91.<br>
      <br>
      In case Anima makes it to WG prior to IETF-91, this will relate to
      generic synchronization; <br>
      in case we have another BoF, I would like to weigh-in to what (I
      think) suitable design objectives are for this group, so as to
      help improving the charter and prioritize milestones. <br>
      <br>
      Potential drafts are still pending, but I thought to give you a
      heads up.<br>
      <br>
      Best regards, Rene  <br>
      <br>
      On 10/22/2014 9:46 PM, Sheng Jiang wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF68086@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Dear all,

Today's weekly call is 6:00am GMT, 23/10/2014.

Access link: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://cisco.webex.com/cisco/j.php?MTID=m03c593fe104ebb37b784bf1d80096c15">https://cisco.webex.com/cisco/j.php?MTID=m03c593fe104ebb37b784bf1d80096c15</a>

For now, we have not yet been informed whether our ANIMA meeting in IETF91 will be a WG-forming BOF or a first WG meeting, and we don't know who will be chairing it. So actually nobody can officially plan the agenda.

So, today's preparation call is expected to be short, only update the status of drafts preparation/submission.

Please find attached a proposal for our Webex meeting - IETF91 Preparation #2 (in both ppt and pdf). In short, we will go through:

 - Calling comments for NMRG autonomic network documents (status)
 - draft-author-anima-*-00 drafts (status &amp; actions)

Please be aware all coming drafts are individual drafts. They are NOT going to be adopted by default. Future adoption must be made by only WG consensus.

In case of problems, please contact the meeting organizers (Michael, Brian, Laurent and myself).

Best regards,

Sheng
</pre>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rstruik.ext@gmail.com">rstruik.ext@gmail.com</a> | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363</pre>
  </body>
</html>

--------------040204040808030807050506--


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From: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Anima] Agenda for ANIMA weekly Webex meeting - IETF91 Preparation #2
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From: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>
To: "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "I2NSF@ietf.org" <I2NSF@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: What elements of IETF ANIMA can be used for  I2NSF?
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I2NSF is to develop application /user oriented policies (the attributes,  t=
he profiles, or the descriptors ) of the network security functions that cl=
ients can request/query from 3rd party  providers.

ANIMA (Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach) introduces a con=
trol paradigm where network processes, driven by objectives (or intent), co=
ordinate their local decisions, autonomically translate them into local act=
ions, and adapt them automatically according to various sources of informat=
ion including external information and protocol information bases.

ANIMA will develop protocols to achieve auto discovery among management sys=
tem and devices. The listed drafts proposed the "The Configuration Discover=
y and Negotiation protocol designed to be a generic platform, which is inde=
pendent from the negotiation contents." There is also the Security aspects =
being discussed in the ANIMA drafts (like secure messages, or keys, among t=
he parties (to be discovered).


Are there some elements developed by ANIMA that can be used by I2NSF?

Linda



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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">I2NSF is to develop=
 application /user oriented policies (the attributes, &nbsp;the profiles, o=
r the descriptors ) of the network security functions that clients can requ=
est/query from 3rd party&nbsp; providers.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">ANIMA (Autonomic Ne=
tworking Integrated Model and Approach) introduces a control paradigm where=
 network processes, driven by objectives (or intent), coordinate their loca=
l decisions, autonomically translate
 them into local actions, and adapt them automatically according to various=
 sources of information including external information and protocol informa=
tion bases.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">ANIMA will develop =
protocols to achieve auto discovery among management system and devices. Th=
e listed drafts proposed the &#8220;</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;=
font-family:Courier">The Configuration Discovery
 and Negotiation protocol designed to</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt=
"> </span>
<span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Courier">be a generic platform,=
 which is independent from the negotiation</span><span style=3D"font-size:1=
2.0pt">
</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Courier">contents.&#8221=
;</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"> There is also the Security aspect=
s being discussed in the ANIMA drafts (like secure messages, or keys, among=
 the parties (to be discovered).
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Are there some elem=
ents developed by ANIMA that can be used by I2NSF?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Linda <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F645E2074Fdfweml701chm_--


From nobody Thu Oct 23 12:33:35 2014
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Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2014 08:33:39 +1300
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] What elements of IETF ANIMA can be used for  I2NSF?
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Linda,

> Are there some elements developed by ANIMA that can be used by I2NSF?

I think the short answer is that it's too soon to answer that question.
The long answer is that I suppose I2NSF would need to identify how
it could be described as a use case for autonomic networking (rather
than as a top-down management use case). For example could the
autonomic discovery mechanism be used to find the I2NSF provider,
even if a specific mechanism was used to download the security
policy itself?

One issue is the trust boundary. We assume that participants in an
autonomic network have a common trust anchor. How can we trust a
"3rd party" provider?

   Brian

On 24/10/2014 06:26, Linda Dunbar wrote:
> I2NSF is to develop application /user oriented policies (the attributes,  the profiles, or the descriptors ) of the network security functions that clients can request/query from 3rd party  providers.
> 
> ANIMA (Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach) introduces a control paradigm where network processes, driven by objectives (or intent), coordinate their local decisions, autonomically translate them into local actions, and adapt them automatically according to various sources of information including external information and protocol information bases.
> 
> ANIMA will develop protocols to achieve auto discovery among management system and devices. The listed drafts proposed the "The Configuration Discovery and Negotiation protocol designed to be a generic platform, which is independent from the negotiation contents." There is also the Security aspects being discussed in the ANIMA drafts (like secure messages, or keys, among the parties (to be discovered).
> 
> 
> Are there some elements developed by ANIMA that can be used by I2NSF?
> 
> Linda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


From nobody Thu Oct 23 12:42:14 2014
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Subject: [Anima] Homogeneous vs. heterogeneous trust domains (Re: What elements of IETF ANIMA can be used for I2NSF?)
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[pruning the email cc to being just Anima]

Hi Brian:

I am somewhat puzzled by the homogeneous trust domain remark below. Shouldn't one aim for supporting heterogeneous trust domains as well (e.g., so as to support devices from multiple vendors). Note: I do realize only considering homogeneous domains make life easier, but also makes this less applicable to real-life systems (including constrained networks, IoT, etc.).

Best regards, Rene


==
We assume that participants in an autonomic network have a common trust anchor.

On 10/23/2014 3:33 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> Linda,
>
>> Are there some elements developed by ANIMA that can be used by I2NSF?
> I think the short answer is that it's too soon to answer that question.
> The long answer is that I suppose I2NSF would need to identify how
> it could be described as a use case for autonomic networking (rather
> than as a top-down management use case). For example could the
> autonomic discovery mechanism be used to find the I2NSF provider,
> even if a specific mechanism was used to download the security
> policy itself?
>
> One issue is the trust boundary. We assume that participants in an
> autonomic network have a common trust anchor. How can we trust a
> "3rd party" provider?
>
>     Brian
>
> On 24/10/2014 06:26, Linda Dunbar wrote:
>> I2NSF is to develop application /user oriented policies (the attributes,  the profiles, or the descriptors ) of the network security functions that clients can request/query from 3rd party  providers.
>>
>> ANIMA (Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach) introduces a control paradigm where network processes, driven by objectives (or intent), coordinate their local decisions, autonomically translate them into local actions, and adapt them automatically according to various sources of information including external information and protocol information bases.
>>
>> ANIMA will develop protocols to achieve auto discovery among management system and devices. The listed drafts proposed the "The Configuration Discovery and Negotiation protocol designed to be a generic platform, which is independent from the negotiation contents." There is also the Security aspects being discussed in the ANIMA drafts (like secure messages, or keys, among the parties (to be discovered).
>>
>>
>> Are there some elements developed by ANIMA that can be used by I2NSF?
>>
>> Linda
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


-- 
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From nobody Thu Oct 23 17:29:49 2014
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Homogeneous vs. heterogeneous trust domains (Re: What elements of IETF ANIMA can be used for I2NSF?)
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On 24/10/2014 08:41, Rene Struik wrote:
> [pruning the email cc to being just Anima]
> 
> Hi Brian:
> 
> I am somewhat puzzled by the homogeneous trust domain remark below.
> Shouldn't one aim for supporting heterogeneous trust domains as well
> (e.g., so as to support devices from multiple vendors). 

I don't see why equipment from multiple vendors needs multiple trust
domains. Can you explain? My assumption is that we don't want anything
like "call home", because that would expose autonomic nodes to direct
attacks from outside. So personally I see heterogeneous trust domains
as a bug, not a feature. However, we certainly need to develop a
complete threat analysis before deciding this question.

   Brian

> Note: I do
> realize only considering homogeneous domains make life easier, but also
> makes this less applicable to real-life systems (including constrained
> networks, IoT, etc.).
> 
> Best regards, Rene
> 
> 
> ==
> We assume that participants in an autonomic network have a common trust
> anchor.
> 
> On 10/23/2014 3:33 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>> Linda,
>>
>>> Are there some elements developed by ANIMA that can be used by I2NSF?
>> I think the short answer is that it's too soon to answer that question.
>> The long answer is that I suppose I2NSF would need to identify how
>> it could be described as a use case for autonomic networking (rather
>> than as a top-down management use case). For example could the
>> autonomic discovery mechanism be used to find the I2NSF provider,
>> even if a specific mechanism was used to download the security
>> policy itself?
>>
>> One issue is the trust boundary. We assume that participants in an
>> autonomic network have a common trust anchor. How can we trust a
>> "3rd party" provider?
>>
>>     Brian
>>
>> On 24/10/2014 06:26, Linda Dunbar wrote:
>>> I2NSF is to develop application /user oriented policies (the
>>> attributes,  the profiles, or the descriptors ) of the network
>>> security functions that clients can request/query from 3rd party 
>>> providers.
>>>
>>> ANIMA (Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach) introduces
>>> a control paradigm where network processes, driven by objectives (or
>>> intent), coordinate their local decisions, autonomically translate
>>> them into local actions, and adapt them automatically according to
>>> various sources of information including external information and
>>> protocol information bases.
>>>
>>> ANIMA will develop protocols to achieve auto discovery among
>>> management system and devices. The listed drafts proposed the "The
>>> Configuration Discovery and Negotiation protocol designed to be a
>>> generic platform, which is independent from the negotiation
>>> contents." There is also the Security aspects being discussed in the
>>> ANIMA drafts (like secure messages, or keys, among the parties (to be
>>> discovered).
>>>
>>>
>>> Are there some elements developed by ANIMA that can be used by I2NSF?
>>>
>>> Linda
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Anima mailing list
>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> 
> 


From nobody Sun Oct 26 17:48:39 2014
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Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 17:48:33 -0700
From: Toerless Eckert <eckert@cisco.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Homogeneous vs. heterogeneous trust domains (Re: What elements of IETF ANIMA can be used for I2NSF?)
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I hope you are both right but talk about different stages.

We want common trust anchors for the running autonomic network and those
ultimately should be defined by the owner of the network. But during
enrollment of devices into that owners network, the manufacturer installed
certificate and trust-points in the to-be-enrolled devices will differ
by vendor.

Yes?No?;-)

Toerless

On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 01:29:50PM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> On 24/10/2014 08:41, Rene Struik wrote:
> > [pruning the email cc to being just Anima]
> > 
> > Hi Brian:
> > 
> > I am somewhat puzzled by the homogeneous trust domain remark below.
> > Shouldn't one aim for supporting heterogeneous trust domains as well
> > (e.g., so as to support devices from multiple vendors). 
> 
> I don't see why equipment from multiple vendors needs multiple trust
> domains. Can you explain? My assumption is that we don't want anything
> like "call home", because that would expose autonomic nodes to direct
> attacks from outside. So personally I see heterogeneous trust domains
> as a bug, not a feature. However, we certainly need to develop a
> complete threat analysis before deciding this question.
> 
>    Brian
> 
> > Note: I do
> > realize only considering homogeneous domains make life easier, but also
> > makes this less applicable to real-life systems (including constrained
> > networks, IoT, etc.).
> > 
> > Best regards, Rene
> > 
> > 
> > ==
> > We assume that participants in an autonomic network have a common trust
> > anchor.
> > 
> > On 10/23/2014 3:33 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> >> Linda,
> >>
> >>> Are there some elements developed by ANIMA that can be used by I2NSF?
> >> I think the short answer is that it's too soon to answer that question.
> >> The long answer is that I suppose I2NSF would need to identify how
> >> it could be described as a use case for autonomic networking (rather
> >> than as a top-down management use case). For example could the
> >> autonomic discovery mechanism be used to find the I2NSF provider,
> >> even if a specific mechanism was used to download the security
> >> policy itself?
> >>
> >> One issue is the trust boundary. We assume that participants in an
> >> autonomic network have a common trust anchor. How can we trust a
> >> "3rd party" provider?
> >>
> >>     Brian
> >>
> >> On 24/10/2014 06:26, Linda Dunbar wrote:
> >>> I2NSF is to develop application /user oriented policies (the
> >>> attributes,  the profiles, or the descriptors ) of the network
> >>> security functions that clients can request/query from 3rd party 
> >>> providers.
> >>>
> >>> ANIMA (Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach) introduces
> >>> a control paradigm where network processes, driven by objectives (or
> >>> intent), coordinate their local decisions, autonomically translate
> >>> them into local actions, and adapt them automatically according to
> >>> various sources of information including external information and
> >>> protocol information bases.
> >>>
> >>> ANIMA will develop protocols to achieve auto discovery among
> >>> management system and devices. The listed drafts proposed the "The
> >>> Configuration Discovery and Negotiation protocol designed to be a
> >>> generic platform, which is independent from the negotiation
> >>> contents." There is also the Security aspects being discussed in the
> >>> ANIMA drafts (like secure messages, or keys, among the parties (to be
> >>> discovered).
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Are there some elements developed by ANIMA that can be used by I2NSF?
> >>>
> >>> Linda
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Anima mailing list
> >>> Anima@ietf.org
> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Anima mailing list
> >> Anima@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> > 
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima

-- 
---
Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com


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Subject: Re: [Anima] Homogeneous vs. heterogeneous trust domains (Re: What elements of IETF ANIMA can be used for I2NSF?)
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--=-=-=


Toerless Eckert <eckert@cisco.com> wrote:
    > I hope you are both right but talk about different stages.

    > We want common trust anchors for the running autonomic network and
    > those ultimately should be defined by the owner of the network. But
    > during enrollment of devices into that owners network, the manufacturer
    > installed certificate and trust-points in the to-be-enrolled devices
    > will differ by vendor.

Yes from me.
This is the critical part that we (an SDO) has to get right.

Once the device is enrolled, it can be tweaked in a dozen different ways to
behave properly if necessary.

I don't think that a device with security functions will be asked to perform
them prior to being enrolled, so by the time a device becomes relevant from
an I2NSF point of view, the device will have a single (local) trust anchor.

(If multiple trust anchors are necessary, that's what certificate chains are
for, and it's way better to use that rather than multiple trust points if you can)


Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




--=-=-=
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--=-=-=--


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Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 15:50:12 +1300
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Homogeneous vs. heterogeneous trust domains (Re: What elements of IETF ANIMA can be used for I2NSF?)
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On 27/10/2014 14:33, Michael Richardson wrote:
> Toerless Eckert <eckert@cisco.com> wrote:
>     > I hope you are both right but talk about different stages.
> 
>     > We want common trust anchors for the running autonomic network and
>     > those ultimately should be defined by the owner of the network. But
>     > during enrollment of devices into that owners network, the manufacturer
>     > installed certificate and trust-points in the to-be-enrolled devices
>     > will differ by vendor.
> 
> Yes from me.
> This is the critical part that we (an SDO) has to get right.

That might be the way to do it. But another way is that when an
operator receives a new box, the box goes to a central place to have a
locally generated key pair and certificate installed, before going
to the warehouse for a later truck roll. I don't think we can exclude
that solution for a highly paranoid operator, who wants absolutely
no traffic about the enrollment to go outside. I think we need to
keep both options open.

Apart from that, I agree with what Toerless said.

   Brian

> 
> Once the device is enrolled, it can be tweaked in a dozen different ways to
> behave properly if necessary.
> 
> I don't think that a device with security functions will be asked to perform
> them prior to being enrolled, so by the time a device becomes relevant from
> an I2NSF point of view, the device will have a single (local) trust anchor.
> 
> (If multiple trust anchors are necessary, that's what certificate chains are
> for, and it's way better to use that rather than multiple trust points if you can)
> 
> 
> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
>  -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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Subject: Re: [Anima] Homogeneous vs. heterogeneous trust domains (Re: What elements of IETF ANIMA can be used for I2NSF?)
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--=-=-=


Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
    >> Toerless Eckert <eckert@cisco.com> wrote: > I hope you are both right
    >> but talk about different stages.
    >>
    >> > We want common trust anchors for the running autonomic network and >
    >> those ultimately should be defined by the owner of the network. But >
    >> during enrollment of devices into that owners network, the
    >> manufacturer > installed certificate and trust-points in the
    >> to-be-enrolled devices > will differ by vendor.
    >>
    >> Yes from me.  This is the critical part that we (an SDO) has to get
    >> right.

    > That might be the way to do it. But another way is that when an
    > operator receives a new box, the box goes to a central place to have a
    > locally generated key pair and certificate installed, before going to
    > the warehouse for a later truck roll. I don't think we can exclude that
    > solution for a highly paranoid operator, who wants absolutely no
    > traffic about the enrollment to go outside. I think we need to keep
    > both options open.

I don't see this as two options. It's one.

All that you've said is that the operator did the initial imprinting in
the warehouse rather than in the field.   If all boxes in the field have been
imprinted in this way, then there are no additional trust issues.
If some have been installed this way, and some have not, perhaps there are
bridge CAs needed to enable to the imprinted boxes to trust the "stock"
machines.

Why do you think that this is two ways?  Maybe I'm missing something.





--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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From nobody Mon Oct 27 12:33:53 2014
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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 08:33:13 +1300
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Homogeneous vs. heterogeneous trust domains (Re: What elements of IETF ANIMA can be used for I2NSF?)
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On 28/10/2014 01:17, Michael Richardson wrote:
> Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
>     >> Toerless Eckert <eckert@cisco.com> wrote: > I hope you are both right
>     >> but talk about different stages.
>     >>
>     >> > We want common trust anchors for the running autonomic network and >
>     >> those ultimately should be defined by the owner of the network. But >
>     >> during enrollment of devices into that owners network, the
>     >> manufacturer > installed certificate and trust-points in the
>     >> to-be-enrolled devices > will differ by vendor.
>     >>
>     >> Yes from me.  This is the critical part that we (an SDO) has to get
>     >> right.
> 
>     > That might be the way to do it. But another way is that when an
>     > operator receives a new box, the box goes to a central place to have a
>     > locally generated key pair and certificate installed, before going to
>     > the warehouse for a later truck roll. I don't think we can exclude that
>     > solution for a highly paranoid operator, who wants absolutely no
>     > traffic about the enrollment to go outside. I think we need to keep
>     > both options open.
> 
> I don't see this as two options. It's one.
> 
> All that you've said is that the operator did the initial imprinting in
> the warehouse rather than in the field.   If all boxes in the field have been
> imprinted in this way, then there are no additional trust issues.
> If some have been installed this way, and some have not, perhaps there are
> bridge CAs needed to enable to the imprinted boxes to trust the "stock"
> machines.
> 
> Why do you think that this is two ways?  Maybe I'm missing something.

I had understood that people were thinking of a mechanism whereby the
enrolment process would rely on a transaction with the manufacturer's
CA, i.e. communication outside the operator's own network, to validate
the device identity.

   Brian


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Subject: [Anima] [Fwd: I-D Action: draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-00.txt]
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: I-D Action: draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-00.txt
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 00:10:15 -0700
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.


        Title           : Autonomic Prefix Management in Large-scale Networks
        Authors         : Sheng Jiang
                          Brian Carpenter
                          Qiong Sun
	Filename        : draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-00.txt
	Pages           : 11
	Date            : 2014-10-26

Abstract:
   This document describes an autonomic solution for prefix management
   in large-scale networks.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-00


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

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From nobody Mon Oct 27 14:59:25 2014
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Homogeneous vs. heterogeneous trust domains (Re: What elements of IETF ANIMA can be used for I2NSF?)
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--=-=-=


Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
    brian> We want common trust anchors for the running autonomic network
    brian> and those ultimately should be defined by the owner of the
    brian> network. But during enrollment of devices into that owners
    brian> network, the >> manufacturer installed certificate and trust-points
    brian> in the to-be-enrolled devices will differ by vendor.

    mcr> Yes from me.  This is the critical part that we (an SDO) has to get
    mcr> right.

    brian> That might be the way to do it. But another way is that when an >
    brian> operator receives a new box, the box goes to a central place to have a
    brian> locally generated key pair and certificate installed, before going
    brian> to the warehouse for a later truck roll. I don't think we can
    brian> exclude that solution for a highly paranoid operator, who wants
    brian> absolutely no traffic about the enrollment to go outside. I think we
    brian> need to keep both options open.

    mcr> I don't see this as two options. It's one.

    mcr> All that you've said is that the operator did the initial imprinting
    mcr> in the warehouse rather than in the field.  If all boxes in the field
    mcr> have been imprinted in this way, then there are no additional trust
    mcr> issues.  If some have been installed this way, and some have not,
    mcr> perhaps there are bridge CAs needed to enable to the imprinted boxes
    mcr> to trust the "stock" machines.

    mcr> Why do you think that this is two ways?  Maybe I'm missing something.

    brian> I had understood that people were thinking of a mechanism whereby the
    brian> enrolment process would rely on a transaction with the manufacturer's
    brian> CA, i.e. communication outside the operator's own network, to validate
    brian> the device identity.

Yes, we are thinking of such thing.
I don't like the word "transaction" -- while I think it's correct, I think
that you are thinking about an "online transaction" (which is certainly
possible).

I'm thinking that it does not need to be online; there definitely was a
"transaction" though --- operator paid money to vendor, and vendor shipped
equipment, and along with that equipment would be some machine readable
(or machine retrievable) credential and/or certificate.  Could be a USB key
with a shared secret or a certificate chain, or a QR code containing same,
or a QR code containing a URL at which to retrieve the cert chain, or a
use-once token that will let the operators' CA get a certificate proving
ownership.

I think that we need to define what's in that proof-of-ownership certificate;
I don't think we need to invent anything for the transport of said
certificate, but we may want to say which of the 37 different ways to get a
certificate we think are MAY/SHOULD/MUST.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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From SRS0=epad=7S=cisco.com=ppfister@bounces.m4x.org  Mon Oct 27 04:09:01 2014
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Cc: Markus Stenberg <markus.stenberg@iki.fi>, "Townsley.net" <mark@townsley.net>, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, HOMENET Working Group <homenet@ietf.org>, Steven Barth <steven@midlink.org>, anima@ietf.org
Subject: [Anima] Slots request for presenting Homenet work at Anima session
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Hello Anima future chairs/participants,

It has been stated and discussed multiple times already that Homenet and =
Anima have quite significant similarities, although they are focusing on =
different scenarios.
HNCP authors and myself think it may be useful to take some time to =
present our work so that Anima may have a view of the Homenet approach =
to solving similar problems (Negociation, Configuration and Security). =
The Anima charter provides starting points for protocol specifications =
which are very different from what Homenet is moving to. Other =
approaches exist though, and should be considered before it is too late.

Therefore, we are requesting slots for the three following =
presentations.

- draft-ietf-homenet-hncp-02 (10 min)
Speaker: TBD

- draft-ietf-homenet-prefix-assignment-01 (10 min)
Speaker: Pierre Pfister

- draft-barth-homenet-hncp-security-trust-00 (10 min)
Speaker: Pierre Pfister (on behalf of Steven Barth)


Regards,

- Pierre


From nobody Mon Oct 27 15:57:37 2014
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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 11:56:56 +1300
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Slots request for presenting Homenet work at Anima session
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FYI the status of the anima meeting in HNL will only be decided
at this weeks's IESG meeting and the chairs are not yet known,
so the agenda process is running late.

Regards
   Brian Carpenter (with no hat on)

On 28/10/2014 00:08, Pierre PFISTER wrote:
> Hello Anima future chairs/participants,
> 
> It has been stated and discussed multiple times already that Homenet and Anima have quite significant similarities, although they are focusing on different scenarios.
> HNCP authors and myself think it may be useful to take some time to present our work so that Anima may have a view of the Homenet approach to solving similar problems (Negociation, Configuration and Security). The Anima charter provides starting points for protocol specifications which are very different from what Homenet is moving to. Other approaches exist though, and should be considered before it is too late.
> 
> Therefore, we are requesting slots for the three following presentations.
> 
> - draft-ietf-homenet-hncp-02 (10 min)
> Speaker: TBD
> 
> - draft-ietf-homenet-prefix-assignment-01 (10 min)
> Speaker: Pierre Pfister
> 
> - draft-barth-homenet-hncp-security-trust-00 (10 min)
> Speaker: Pierre Pfister (on behalf of Steven Barth)
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> - Pierre
> 
> 


From nobody Tue Oct 28 01:40:57 2014
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--001a11362a9ac319dd050677a271
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I assume you mean "at the night of *Nov*. 8"?

On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 1:40 AM, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com> wrote:

> Hi, all,
>
> The IETF online draft submission tool is now closed for two weeks. The
> below is the summarized status of ANIMA drafts submission:
>
> We have 5 drafts received. All of them are individual drafts. They are NOT
> going to be adopted by default. Future adoption must be made by only WG
> consensus.
>
> draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane-00,
> "An Autonomic Control Plane" submitted 2014-10-17;
>
> draft-behringer-anima-reference-model-00,
> "A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking", submitted 2014-10-17;
>
> draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-00,
> "A Generic Discovery and Negotiation Protocol for Autonomic Networking",
>       submitted 2014-10-13;
>
> draft-eckert-anima-stable-connectivity-00,
> "Autonomic Network Stable Connectivity", submitted 2014-10-26;
>
> draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-00,
> "Autonomic Prefix Management in Large-scale Networks", submitted
> 2014-10-27.
>
> We are missed one essential component draft that was agreed in the initial
> plan:
>
> draft-X-anima-trust-bootstrap (Who is responsible?). If people are still
> working on it, it may be submitted after the online draft submission tool
> reopen at the night of Oct. 8.
>
> More contributions and drafts are always welcome.
>
> The status of the ANIMA meeting in the coming IETF91 will only be decided
> at this week's IESG meeting and the chairs are not yet known. Therefore,
> the agenda process is running late.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Sheng
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I assume you mean &quot;<span style=3D"font-family:ar=
ial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">at the night of <b><u>Nov</u></b>. 8&quot;?<=
/span></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"=
>On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 1:40 AM, Sheng Jiang <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">jiangsheng@huawei.com</=
a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi, all,<br>
<br>
The IETF online draft submission tool is now closed for two weeks. The belo=
w is the summarized status of ANIMA drafts submission:<br>
<br>
We have 5 drafts received. All of them are individual drafts. They are NOT =
going to be adopted by default. Future adoption must be made by only WG con=
sensus.<br>
<br>
draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane-00,<br>
&quot;An Autonomic Control Plane&quot; submitted 2014-10-17;<br>
<br>
draft-behringer-anima-reference-model-00,<br>
&quot;A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking&quot;, submitted 2014-10-1=
7;<br>
<br>
draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-00,<br>
&quot;A Generic Discovery and Negotiation Protocol for Autonomic Networking=
&quot;,=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 submitted 2014-10-13;<br>
<br>
draft-eckert-anima-stable-connectivity-00,<br>
&quot;Autonomic Network Stable Connectivity&quot;, submitted 2014-10-26;<br=
>
<br>
draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-00,<br>
&quot;Autonomic Prefix Management in Large-scale Networks&quot;, submitted =
2014-10-27.<br>
<br>
We are missed one essential component draft that was agreed in the initial =
plan:<br>
<br>
draft-X-anima-trust-bootstrap (Who is responsible?). If people are still wo=
rking on it, it may be submitted after the online draft submission tool reo=
pen at the night of Oct. 8.<br>
<br>
More contributions and drafts are always welcome.<br>
<br>
The status of the ANIMA meeting in the coming IETF91 will only be decided a=
t this week&#39;s IESG meeting and the chairs are not yet known. Therefore,=
 the agenda process is running late.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
<br>
Sheng<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Anima mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

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From: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
To: Thomas Watteyne <watteyne@eecs.berkeley.edu>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Summary status of ANIMA drafts submission
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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Homogeneous vs. heterogeneous trust domains (Re: What elements of IETF ANIMA can be used for I2NSF?)
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Homogeneous vs. heterogeneous trust domains (Re: What elements of IETF ANIMA can be used for I2NSF?)
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Toerless summed it up nicely.=20

Inside a domain (for example, an enterprise network), you want a single tru=
st domain. The owner of that enterprise network wants all those devices und=
er one trust anchor. (Of course he can create sub-domains, or several domai=
ns).=20

Before they form part of a single domain, devices come from various vendors=
, or are imprinted in various ways. In that part there are many trust domai=
ns. As Brian points out, some domains will accept a call home functions, ot=
hers will not.=20

Bottom line: We need a process which gets devices from various origins and =
trust domains, and various ways to initialise them to a single trust domain=
, for example an enterprise network. draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfras=
tructures tries to explain what this process could look like.=20

Michael

[typing this offline on a plane - apologies I don't respond to the latest m=
essage]


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael
> Richardson
> Sent: 27 October 2014 13:18
> To: Brian E Carpenter
> Cc: anima@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Anima] Homogeneous vs. heterogeneous trust domains (Re:
> What elements of IETF ANIMA can be used for I2NSF?)
>=20
>=20
> Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
>     >> Toerless Eckert <eckert@cisco.com> wrote: > I hope you are both ri=
ght
>     >> but talk about different stages.
>     >>
>     >> > We want common trust anchors for the running autonomic network
> and >
>     >> those ultimately should be defined by the owner of the network. Bu=
t >
>     >> during enrollment of devices into that owners network, the
>     >> manufacturer > installed certificate and trust-points in the
>     >> to-be-enrolled devices > will differ by vendor.
>     >>
>     >> Yes from me.  This is the critical part that we (an SDO) has to ge=
t
>     >> right.
>=20
>     > That might be the way to do it. But another way is that when an
>     > operator receives a new box, the box goes to a central place to hav=
e a
>     > locally generated key pair and certificate installed, before going =
to
>     > the warehouse for a later truck roll. I don't think we can exclude =
that
>     > solution for a highly paranoid operator, who wants absolutely no
>     > traffic about the enrollment to go outside. I think we need to keep
>     > both options open.
>=20
> I don't see this as two options. It's one.
>=20
> All that you've said is that the operator did the initial imprinting in
> the warehouse rather than in the field.   If all boxes in the field have =
been
> imprinted in this way, then there are no additional trust issues.
> If some have been installed this way, and some have not, perhaps there ar=
e
> bridge CAs needed to enable to the imprinted boxes to trust the "stock"
> machines.
>=20
> Why do you think that this is two ways?  Maybe I'm missing something.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --
> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
> -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
>=20
>=20


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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Summary status of ANIMA drafts submission
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Summary status of ANIMA drafts submission
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Sheng,=20

Thanks for summarising this.=20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Sheng Jiang
> Sent: 28 October 2014 01:40
> To: anima@ietf.org
> Subject: [Anima] Summary status of ANIMA drafts submission
>=20
> Hi, all,
>=20
> The IETF online draft submission tool is now closed for two weeks. The
> below is the summarized status of ANIMA drafts submission:
>=20
> We have 5 drafts received. All of them are individual drafts. They are NO=
T
> going to be adopted by default. Future adoption must be made by only WG
> consensus.
>=20
> draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane-00,
> "An Autonomic Control Plane" submitted 2014-10-17;
>=20
> draft-behringer-anima-reference-model-00,
> "A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking", submitted 2014-10-17;
>=20
> draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-00,
> "A Generic Discovery and Negotiation Protocol for Autonomic Networking",
> 	submitted 2014-10-13;
>=20
> draft-eckert-anima-stable-connectivity-00,
> "Autonomic Network Stable Connectivity", submitted 2014-10-26;
>=20
> draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-00,
> "Autonomic Prefix Management in Large-scale Networks", submitted 2014-
> 10-27.
>=20
> We are missed one essential component draft that was agreed in the initia=
l
> plan:
>=20
> draft-X-anima-trust-bootstrap (Who is responsible?). If people are still
> working on it, it may be submitted after the online draft submission tool
> reopen at the night of Oct. 8.

This is draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures. It didn't get re-s=
ubmitted with "anima" in the title, but this is the draft.=20

Michael
=20
> More contributions and drafts are always welcome.
>=20
> The status of the ANIMA meeting in the coming IETF91 will only be decided
> at this week's IESG meeting and the chairs are not yet known. Therefore, =
the
> agenda process is running late.
>=20
> Best regards,
>=20
> Sheng
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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--=-=-=


For your clicking/offline-reading pleasure:

https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-behringer-anima-reference-model-00.html
https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane-00.html
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-00
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-eckert-anima-stable-connectivity-00
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-00

(You only get pretty .html versions if the draft .xml was supplied, I think)

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




--=-=-=
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References: <4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F645E2074F@dfweml701-chm> <54495813.4050703@gmail.com> <54495A00.4000302@gmail.com> <54499D7E.4060007@gmail.com> <20141027004833.GA4665@cisco.com> <12570.1414373603@sandelman.ca> <544DB2E4.5020808@gmail.com> <17335.1414412250@sandelman.ca> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21C9DAAA@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Homogeneous vs. heterogeneous trust domains (Re: What elements of IETF ANIMA can be used for I2NSF?)
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--=-=-=


Michael Behringer (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com> wrote:
    > Toerless summed it up nicely.

    > Inside a domain (for example, an enterprise network), you want a single
    > trust domain. The owner of that enterprise network wants all those
    > devices under one trust anchor. (Of course he can create sub-domains,
    > or several domains).

I think that we are all agreed on this.

    > Before they form part of a single domain, devices come from various
    > vendors, or are imprinted in various ways. In that part there are many
    > trust domains. As Brian points out, some domains will accept a call
    > home functions, others will not.

So, irrespective of whether there is a call-home part of the imprinting,
Brian's point was that some domains expect to the imprinting in the field,
and some prefer to do this in a virtual faraday cage.

I claim that there is doesn't matter where the initial imprinting occurs;
I think it's the same process.  All nodes should expect the potential for
their role to change after a power cycle/deep sleep.

    > Bottom line: We need a process which gets devices from various origins
    > and trust domains, and various ways to initialise them to a single
    > trust domain, for example an enterprise
    > network. draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures tries to
    > explain what this process could look like.

In other emails over the I've tried to fill in some details on such a
process, is it the time to recap that here?

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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From nobody Tue Oct 28 12:04:29 2014
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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2014 08:03:58 +1300
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Summary status of ANIMA drafts submission
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On 29/10/2014 03:46, Michael Richardson wrote:
> For your clicking/offline-reading pleasure:
> 
> https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-behringer-anima-reference-model-00.html
> https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane-00.html
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-00
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-eckert-anima-stable-connectivity-00
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-00
> 
> (You only get pretty .html versions if the draft .xml was supplied, I think)

No, I believe it is created from the .txt file, with some occasional small
glitches as a result. Your first two URLs are simply wrong ;-)
With Michael's addition the full list is:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-behringer-anima-reference-model
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-eckert-anima-stable-connectivity
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures

Pierre Pfister also mentioned the three Homenet drafts that cover parallel
territory; but whether we do any specfic draft presentations in the
meeting is an open question still.

   Brian
> 
> --
> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
>  -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


From nobody Tue Oct 28 13:18:41 2014
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Subject: [Anima] ANIMA scope + homenet interaction + charter v15
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Dear all,

[sorry for double-posting, but we need the specific feedback from the 
HOMENET community]

1. scope
I finished reading the ANIMA mailing list and, based on the feedback, 
Joel, Ted, and I would like to clarify the ANIMA scope for "the set of 
specific reusable infrastructure components that support autonomic 
interactions between devices" (quoting the charter)

The charter currently mentions:
     The ANIMA working group will initially focus on enterprise, ISP 
networks and IoT.

Multiple tracks were discussed on the mailing list.
     * keep enterprise, ISP networks and IoT
     * focus on enterprise and ISP networks
     * everything, but the initial focus is enterprise and carrier?
     * professionally-managed networks

It seems to us that "professionally-managed networks" is what ANIMA is 
after. And it's potentially a distraction to try to segment the scope 
based on enterprise, ISP, homenet, or IoT. What is IoT after all?

OLD:     The ANIMA working group will initially focus on enterprise, ISP 
networks and IoT.
NEW:    The ANIMA working group focuses on professionally-managed networks.

Does it sound about right?

2. Overlap with HOMENET
This distinction in point 1 might help regarding the potential overlap 
of the solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management.
Btw, the new charter has been adapted:
OLD:  A solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management within a network.
NEW: the solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management within a 
large-scale network

Also, The HOMENET collaboration has been stressed in the charter.

3. Others
I believe I took care of the others changes proposed on the mailing. If 
this is not the case, let me know.
At this point in time, please provide concrete change to the charter 
text if some issues persist.
Charter v15 has just been posted, and you can review the detailed 
changes at 
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-14.txt&difftype=--html&submit=Go!&url2=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-15.txt


4. Security Advisor.
I have requested one for ANIMA to the security ADs.

Regards, Benoit


From nobody Tue Oct 28 14:08:21 2014
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From: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>
To: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "homenet@ietf.org" <homenet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] ANIMA scope + homenet interaction + charter v15
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Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA scope + homenet interaction + charter v15
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Beniot,=20

Is "professionally-managed networks" same as "network service provider netw=
ork"?

Linda

-----Original Message-----
From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Benoit Claise
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2014 3:14 PM
To: anima@ietf.org; homenet@ietf.org
Subject: [Anima] ANIMA scope + homenet interaction + charter v15

Dear all,

[sorry for double-posting, but we need the specific feedback from the HOMEN=
ET community]

1. scope
I finished reading the ANIMA mailing list and, based on the feedback, Joel,=
 Ted, and I would like to clarify the ANIMA scope for "the set of specific =
reusable infrastructure components that support autonomic interactions betw=
een devices" (quoting the charter)

The charter currently mentions:
     The ANIMA working group will initially focus on enterprise, ISP networ=
ks and IoT.

Multiple tracks were discussed on the mailing list.
     * keep enterprise, ISP networks and IoT
     * focus on enterprise and ISP networks
     * everything, but the initial focus is enterprise and carrier?
     * professionally-managed networks

It seems to us that "professionally-managed networks" is what ANIMA is afte=
r. And it's potentially a distraction to try to segment the scope based on =
enterprise, ISP, homenet, or IoT. What is IoT after all?

OLD:     The ANIMA working group will initially focus on enterprise, ISP=20
networks and IoT.
NEW:    The ANIMA working group focuses on professionally-managed networks.

Does it sound about right?

2. Overlap with HOMENET
This distinction in point 1 might help regarding the potential overlap of t=
he solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management.
Btw, the new charter has been adapted:
OLD:  A solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management within a network.
NEW: the solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management within a large-sca=
le network

Also, The HOMENET collaboration has been stressed in the charter.

3. Others
I believe I took care of the others changes proposed on the mailing. If thi=
s is not the case, let me know.
At this point in time, please provide concrete change to the charter text i=
f some issues persist.
Charter v15 has just been posted, and you can review the detailed changes a=
t https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2F=
doc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-14.txt&difftype=3D--html&submi=
t=3DGo!&url2=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anim=
a%2Fwithmilestones-00-15.txt


4. Security Advisor.
I have requested one for ANIMA to the security ADs.

Regards, Benoit

_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


From nobody Tue Oct 28 14:25:38 2014
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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] ANIMA scope + homenet interaction + charter v15
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On 29/10/2014 09:13, Benoit Claise wrote:
> Dear all,
> 
> [sorry for double-posting, but we need the specific feedback from the
> HOMENET community]
> 
> 1. scope
> I finished reading the ANIMA mailing list and, based on the feedback,
> Joel, Ted, and I would like to clarify the ANIMA scope for "the set of
> specific reusable infrastructure components that support autonomic
> interactions between devices" (quoting the charter)
> 
> The charter currently mentions:
>     The ANIMA working group will initially focus on enterprise, ISP
> networks and IoT.
> 
> Multiple tracks were discussed on the mailing list.
>     * keep enterprise, ISP networks and IoT
>     * focus on enterprise and ISP networks
>     * everything, but the initial focus is enterprise and carrier?
>     * professionally-managed networks
> 
> It seems to us that "professionally-managed networks" is what ANIMA is
> after. And it's potentially a distraction to try to segment the scope
> based on enterprise, ISP, homenet, or IoT. What is IoT after all?
> 
> OLD:     The ANIMA working group will initially focus on enterprise, ISP
> networks and IoT.
> NEW:    The ANIMA working group focuses on professionally-managed networks.
> 
> Does it sound about right?

Personal opinion: Yes. We should of course seek to make everything we
do as general as possible, so that there are no artificial limits
to its use if successful.

    Brian

> 
> 2. Overlap with HOMENET
> This distinction in point 1 might help regarding the potential overlap
> of the solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management.
> Btw, the new charter has been adapted:
> OLD:  A solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management within a network.
> NEW: the solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management within a
> large-scale network
> 
> Also, The HOMENET collaboration has been stressed in the charter.
> 
> 3. Others
> I believe I took care of the others changes proposed on the mailing. If
> this is not the case, let me know.
> At this point in time, please provide concrete change to the charter
> text if some issues persist.
> Charter v15 has just been posted, and you can review the detailed
> changes at
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-14.txt&difftype=--html&submit=Go!&url2=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-15.txt
> 
> 
> 
> 4. Security Advisor.
> I have requested one for ANIMA to the security ADs.
> 
> Regards, Benoit
> 
> _______________________________________________
> homenet mailing list
> homenet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet
> 


From nobody Tue Oct 28 14:37:31 2014
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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] ANIMA scope + homenet interaction + charter v15
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Hi Benoit:

-1 on you suggestion #1.

I do not think suggesting "constrained networks and devices" to be 
suddenly out of scope helps: it is one of the main areas where 
semi-automatic management is imperative. If one has a bootstrapping 
solution and configuration negotiation/synchronization protocol that is 
not useful in constrained settings, what is the point? In my mind, it 
seems much more prudent to design schemes with constrained networks and 
devices and failure recovery models that apply there (configuration 
mismatch due to sleepy devices, malfunctioning data store, etc.), where 
these would then obviously also fit the less constrained, 
"professionally managed" networks. Design for the"nimble", so that both 
"nimble" and "fatter" networks can use this.

This also has the advantage that one is forced to think in terms of many 
potential actors, rather than a few ones, which helps in viewing 
solutions in terms of heterogeneous rather than homogeneous deployment 
models.

I have done all my reviews of nmrg drafts 
(http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00327.html) with 
constrained networks and devices in mind. It would be a shame if one 
would now narrow down the focus and rule this (future almost ubiquitous) 
deployment category out of scope.

Or, is this a political ploy, so as to avoid a turf war with homenet people?

If that is the case, it would be much more prudent to have another BoF 
to iron out some of these issues. {This may be prudent for reasons I 
already indicated in the same #00327 message as well - I will  not 
repeat those arguments here.}

Best regards, Rene

On 10/28/2014 4:13 PM, Benoit Claise wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> [sorry for double-posting, but we need the specific feedback from the 
> HOMENET community]
>
> 1. scope
> I finished reading the ANIMA mailing list and, based on the feedback, 
> Joel, Ted, and I would like to clarify the ANIMA scope for "the set of 
> specific reusable infrastructure components that support autonomic 
> interactions between devices" (quoting the charter)
>
> The charter currently mentions:
>     The ANIMA working group will initially focus on enterprise, ISP 
> networks and IoT.
>
> Multiple tracks were discussed on the mailing list.
>     * keep enterprise, ISP networks and IoT
>     * focus on enterprise and ISP networks
>     * everything, but the initial focus is enterprise and carrier?
>     * professionally-managed networks
>
> It seems to us that "professionally-managed networks" is what ANIMA is 
> after. And it's potentially a distraction to try to segment the scope 
> based on enterprise, ISP, homenet, or IoT. What is IoT after all?
>
> OLD:     The ANIMA working group will initially focus on enterprise, 
> ISP networks and IoT.
> NEW:    The ANIMA working group focuses on professionally-managed 
> networks.
>
> Does it sound about right?
>
> 2. Overlap with HOMENET
> This distinction in point 1 might help regarding the potential overlap 
> of the solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management.
> Btw, the new charter has been adapted:
> OLD:  A solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management within a network.
> NEW: the solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management within a 
> large-scale network
>
> Also, The HOMENET collaboration has been stressed in the charter.
>
> 3. Others
> I believe I took care of the others changes proposed on the mailing. 
> If this is not the case, let me know.
> At this point in time, please provide concrete change to the charter 
> text if some issues persist.
> Charter v15 has just been posted, and you can review the detailed 
> changes at 
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-14.txt&difftype=--html&submit=Go!&url2=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-15.txt
>
>
> 4. Security Advisor.
> I have requested one for ANIMA to the security ADs.
>
> Regards, Benoit
>
> _______________________________________________
> homenet mailing list
> homenet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet


-- 
email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363


From nobody Tue Oct 28 15:48:21 2014
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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] ANIMA scope + homenet interaction + charter v15
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On 29/10/2014 10:37, Rene Struik wrote:
> Hi Benoit:
> 
> -1 on you suggestion #1.
> 
> I do not think suggesting "constrained networks and devices" to be
> suddenly out of scope helps: it is one of the main areas where
> semi-automatic management is imperative. 

Rene has a point. My +1 was with the idea of limiting the initially
worked-out use cases, and avoiding any direct interference with
progress in homenet. But understanding the requirements for
constrained networks is desirable. What I don't know is whether
those requirements can in fact be met by the same infrastructure
components that we need for "professionally managed" networks.
There may simply not be enough overlap between "nimble and
heterogeneous" and "managed and homogeneous."

   Brian

If one has a bootstrapping
> solution and configuration negotiation/synchronization protocol that is
> not useful in constrained settings, what is the point? In my mind, it
> seems much more prudent to design schemes with constrained networks and
> devices and failure recovery models that apply there (configuration
> mismatch due to sleepy devices, malfunctioning data store, etc.), where
> these would then obviously also fit the less constrained,
> "professionally managed" networks. Design for the"nimble", so that both
> "nimble" and "fatter" networks can use this.
> 
> This also has the advantage that one is forced to think in terms of many
> potential actors, rather than a few ones, which helps in viewing
> solutions in terms of heterogeneous rather than homogeneous deployment
> models.
> 
> I have done all my reviews of nmrg drafts
> (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00327.html) with
> constrained networks and devices in mind. It would be a shame if one
> would now narrow down the focus and rule this (future almost ubiquitous)
> deployment category out of scope.
> 
> Or, is this a political ploy, so as to avoid a turf war with homenet
> people?
> 
> If that is the case, it would be much more prudent to have another BoF
> to iron out some of these issues. {This may be prudent for reasons I
> already indicated in the same #00327 message as well - I will  not
> repeat those arguments here.}
> 
> Best regards, Rene
> 
> On 10/28/2014 4:13 PM, Benoit Claise wrote:
>> Dear all,
>>
>> [sorry for double-posting, but we need the specific feedback from the
>> HOMENET community]
>>
>> 1. scope
>> I finished reading the ANIMA mailing list and, based on the feedback,
>> Joel, Ted, and I would like to clarify the ANIMA scope for "the set of
>> specific reusable infrastructure components that support autonomic
>> interactions between devices" (quoting the charter)
>>
>> The charter currently mentions:
>>     The ANIMA working group will initially focus on enterprise, ISP
>> networks and IoT.
>>
>> Multiple tracks were discussed on the mailing list.
>>     * keep enterprise, ISP networks and IoT
>>     * focus on enterprise and ISP networks
>>     * everything, but the initial focus is enterprise and carrier?
>>     * professionally-managed networks
>>
>> It seems to us that "professionally-managed networks" is what ANIMA is
>> after. And it's potentially a distraction to try to segment the scope
>> based on enterprise, ISP, homenet, or IoT. What is IoT after all?
>>
>> OLD:     The ANIMA working group will initially focus on enterprise,
>> ISP networks and IoT.
>> NEW:    The ANIMA working group focuses on professionally-managed
>> networks.
>>
>> Does it sound about right?
>>
>> 2. Overlap with HOMENET
>> This distinction in point 1 might help regarding the potential overlap
>> of the solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management.
>> Btw, the new charter has been adapted:
>> OLD:  A solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management within a network.
>> NEW: the solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management within a
>> large-scale network
>>
>> Also, The HOMENET collaboration has been stressed in the charter.
>>
>> 3. Others
>> I believe I took care of the others changes proposed on the mailing.
>> If this is not the case, let me know.
>> At this point in time, please provide concrete change to the charter
>> text if some issues persist.
>> Charter v15 has just been posted, and you can review the detailed
>> changes at
>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-14.txt&difftype=--html&submit=Go!&url2=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-15.txt
>>
>>
>>
>> 4. Security Advisor.
>> I have requested one for ANIMA to the security ADs.
>>
>> Regards, Benoit
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> homenet mailing list
>> homenet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet
> 
> 


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From: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
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From: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Homogeneous vs. heterogeneous trust domains (Re: What elements of IETF ANIMA can be used for I2NSF?)
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Hi -

>From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
>Sent: Oct 28, 2014 7:53 AM
>To: "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
>Subject: Re: [Anima] Homogeneous vs. heterogeneous trust domains (Re: What elements of IETF ANIMA can be used for I2NSF?)
...
>I claim that there is doesn't matter where the initial imprinting occurs;

Perhaps I'm being overly literal, but aren't there situations
where physical location might actually matter, as in setting
DVD region codes?

Randy


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From: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
To: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "homenet@ietf.org" <homenet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [homenet] ANIMA scope + homenet interaction + charter v15
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From nobody Wed Oct 29 03:32:48 2014
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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2014 10:55:27 +0100
From: Laurent Ciavaglia <Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>
Organization: Alcatel-Lucent Bell Labs France
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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] ANIMA scope + homenet interaction + charter v15
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Dear all,

I agree with Rene and Brian on the need to consider constrained networks.
However, I don't think that "professionally-managed networks" 
automatically exclude such environments.

As Barbara S. mentioned in 
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/homenet/current/msg04008.html, 
there can be multiple scenarios with different roles, and different 
devices being managed.

My opinion is that covering the scenario of professionally-managed 
consrained (and less constrained) networks is a challenging one, from 
which we could derive "good" common, re-usable protocols/components.

Best regards, Laurent.


On 28/10/2014 23:48, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> On 29/10/2014 10:37, Rene Struik wrote:
>> Hi Benoit:
>>
>> -1 on you suggestion #1.
>>
>> I do not think suggesting "constrained networks and devices" to be
>> suddenly out of scope helps: it is one of the main areas where
>> semi-automatic management is imperative.
> Rene has a point. My +1 was with the idea of limiting the initially
> worked-out use cases, and avoiding any direct interference with
> progress in homenet. But understanding the requirements for
> constrained networks is desirable. What I don't know is whether
> those requirements can in fact be met by the same infrastructure
> components that we need for "professionally managed" networks.
> There may simply not be enough overlap between "nimble and
> heterogeneous" and "managed and homogeneous."
>
>     Brian
>
> If one has a bootstrapping
>> solution and configuration negotiation/synchronization protocol that is
>> not useful in constrained settings, what is the point? In my mind, it
>> seems much more prudent to design schemes with constrained networks and
>> devices and failure recovery models that apply there (configuration
>> mismatch due to sleepy devices, malfunctioning data store, etc.), where
>> these would then obviously also fit the less constrained,
>> "professionally managed" networks. Design for the"nimble", so that both
>> "nimble" and "fatter" networks can use this.
>>
>> This also has the advantage that one is forced to think in terms of many
>> potential actors, rather than a few ones, which helps in viewing
>> solutions in terms of heterogeneous rather than homogeneous deployment
>> models.
>>
>> I have done all my reviews of nmrg drafts
>> (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00327.html) with
>> constrained networks and devices in mind. It would be a shame if one
>> would now narrow down the focus and rule this (future almost ubiquitous)
>> deployment category out of scope.
>>
>> Or, is this a political ploy, so as to avoid a turf war with homenet
>> people?
>>
>> If that is the case, it would be much more prudent to have another BoF
>> to iron out some of these issues. {This may be prudent for reasons I
>> already indicated in the same #00327 message as well - I will  not
>> repeat those arguments here.}
>>
>> Best regards, Rene
>>
>> On 10/28/2014 4:13 PM, Benoit Claise wrote:
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> [sorry for double-posting, but we need the specific feedback from the
>>> HOMENET community]
>>>
>>> 1. scope
>>> I finished reading the ANIMA mailing list and, based on the feedback,
>>> Joel, Ted, and I would like to clarify the ANIMA scope for "the set of
>>> specific reusable infrastructure components that support autonomic
>>> interactions between devices" (quoting the charter)
>>>
>>> The charter currently mentions:
>>>      The ANIMA working group will initially focus on enterprise, ISP
>>> networks and IoT.
>>>
>>> Multiple tracks were discussed on the mailing list.
>>>      * keep enterprise, ISP networks and IoT
>>>      * focus on enterprise and ISP networks
>>>      * everything, but the initial focus is enterprise and carrier?
>>>      * professionally-managed networks
>>>
>>> It seems to us that "professionally-managed networks" is what ANIMA is
>>> after. And it's potentially a distraction to try to segment the scope
>>> based on enterprise, ISP, homenet, or IoT. What is IoT after all?
>>>
>>> OLD:     The ANIMA working group will initially focus on enterprise,
>>> ISP networks and IoT.
>>> NEW:    The ANIMA working group focuses on professionally-managed
>>> networks.
>>>
>>> Does it sound about right?
>>>
>>> 2. Overlap with HOMENET
>>> This distinction in point 1 might help regarding the potential overlap
>>> of the solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management.
>>> Btw, the new charter has been adapted:
>>> OLD:  A solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management within a network.
>>> NEW: the solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management within a
>>> large-scale network
>>>
>>> Also, The HOMENET collaboration has been stressed in the charter.
>>>
>>> 3. Others
>>> I believe I took care of the others changes proposed on the mailing.
>>> If this is not the case, let me know.
>>> At this point in time, please provide concrete change to the charter
>>> text if some issues persist.
>>> Charter v15 has just been posted, and you can review the detailed
>>> changes at
>>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-14.txt&difftype=--html&submit=Go!&url2=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-15.txt
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 4. Security Advisor.
>>> I have requested one for ANIMA to the security ADs.
>>>
>>> Regards, Benoit
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> homenet mailing list
>>> homenet@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>

-- 

Bien cordialement, Best regards,

*Laurent Ciavaglia*

Advanced Internet Research

Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

phone: +33 160 402 636

email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 
<mailto:laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>

linkedin: laurentciavaglia <http://fr.linkedin.com/in/laurentciavaglia/>

address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France


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    <font face="Courier New">Dear all,<br>
      <br>
      I agree with Rene and Brian on the need to consider constrained
      networks.<br>
      However, I don't think that "professionally-managed networks"
      automatically exclude such environments.<br>
      <br>
      As Barbara S. mentioned in
      <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/homenet/current/msg04008.html">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/homenet/current/msg04008.html</a>,
      there can be multiple scenarios with different roles, and
      different devices being managed.<br>
      <br>
      My opinion is that covering the scenario of professionally-managed
      consrained (and less constrained) networks is a challenging one,
      from which we could derive "good" common, re-usable
      protocols/components.<br>
      <br>
      Best regards, Laurent.<br>
      <br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 28/10/2014 23:48, Brian E Carpenter
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:54501D28.4090908@gmail.com" type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">On 29/10/2014 10:37, Rene Struik wrote:
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">Hi Benoit:

-1 on you suggestion #1.

I do not think suggesting "constrained networks and devices" to be
suddenly out of scope helps: it is one of the main areas where
semi-automatic management is imperative. 
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
Rene has a point. My +1 was with the idea of limiting the initially
worked-out use cases, and avoiding any direct interference with
progress in homenet. But understanding the requirements for
constrained networks is desirable. What I don't know is whether
those requirements can in fact be met by the same infrastructure
components that we need for "professionally managed" networks.
There may simply not be enough overlap between "nimble and
heterogeneous" and "managed and homogeneous."

   Brian

If one has a bootstrapping
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">solution and configuration negotiation/synchronization protocol that is
not useful in constrained settings, what is the point? In my mind, it
seems much more prudent to design schemes with constrained networks and
devices and failure recovery models that apply there (configuration
mismatch due to sleepy devices, malfunctioning data store, etc.), where
these would then obviously also fit the less constrained,
"professionally managed" networks. Design for the"nimble", so that both
"nimble" and "fatter" networks can use this.

This also has the advantage that one is forced to think in terms of many
potential actors, rather than a few ones, which helps in viewing
solutions in terms of heterogeneous rather than homogeneous deployment
models.

I have done all my reviews of nmrg drafts
(<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00327.html">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00327.html</a>) with
constrained networks and devices in mind. It would be a shame if one
would now narrow down the focus and rule this (future almost ubiquitous)
deployment category out of scope.

Or, is this a political ploy, so as to avoid a turf war with homenet
people?

If that is the case, it would be much more prudent to have another BoF
to iron out some of these issues. {This may be prudent for reasons I
already indicated in the same #00327 message as well - I will  not
repeat those arguments here.}

Best regards, Rene

On 10/28/2014 4:13 PM, Benoit Claise wrote:
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">Dear all,

[sorry for double-posting, but we need the specific feedback from the
HOMENET community]

1. scope
I finished reading the ANIMA mailing list and, based on the feedback,
Joel, Ted, and I would like to clarify the ANIMA scope for "the set of
specific reusable infrastructure components that support autonomic
interactions between devices" (quoting the charter)

The charter currently mentions:
    The ANIMA working group will initially focus on enterprise, ISP
networks and IoT.

Multiple tracks were discussed on the mailing list.
    * keep enterprise, ISP networks and IoT
    * focus on enterprise and ISP networks
    * everything, but the initial focus is enterprise and carrier?
    * professionally-managed networks

It seems to us that "professionally-managed networks" is what ANIMA is
after. And it's potentially a distraction to try to segment the scope
based on enterprise, ISP, homenet, or IoT. What is IoT after all?

OLD:     The ANIMA working group will initially focus on enterprise,
ISP networks and IoT.
NEW:    The ANIMA working group focuses on professionally-managed
networks.

Does it sound about right?

2. Overlap with HOMENET
This distinction in point 1 might help regarding the potential overlap
of the solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management.
Btw, the new charter has been adapted:
OLD:  A solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management within a network.
NEW: the solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management within a
large-scale network

Also, The HOMENET collaboration has been stressed in the charter.

3. Others
I believe I took care of the others changes proposed on the mailing.
If this is not the case, let me know.
At this point in time, please provide concrete change to the charter
text if some issues persist.
Charter v15 has just been posted, and you can review the detailed
changes at
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-14.txt&amp;difftype=--html&amp;submit=Go!&amp;url2=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-15.txt">https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-14.txt&amp;difftype=--html&amp;submit=Go!&amp;url2=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-15.txt</a>



4. Security Advisor.
I have requested one for ANIMA to the security ADs.

Regards, Benoit

_______________________________________________
homenet mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:homenet@ietf.org">homenet@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet</a>
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">

</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a>

</pre>
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From nobody Wed Oct 29 08:16:10 2014
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Cc: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, homenet <homenet@ietf.org>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, Rene Struik <rstruik.ext@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] ANIMA scope + homenet interaction + charter v15
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--=-=-=


Laurent Ciavaglia <Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:
    > I agree with Rene and Brian on the need to consider constrained networks.
    > However, I don't think that "professionally-managed networks" automatically
    > exclude such environments.

I would further say that the security work in 6tisch, which is aimed at
industrial networks is made possible because we are assuming a
professionally-managed LLN.

The mechanisms being discussed won't scale down to the home.

The important constraint of the constrained devices is not ram, cpu or stable
storage for ANIMA, but the lack of a VGA and USB connectors for the
monitor/mouse.  Routers usually share the same constraint.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA scope + homenet interaction + charter v15
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Hi Linda,
> Beniot,
>
> Is "professionally-managed networks" same as "network service provider network"?
It was intended to say: as opposed to just plug-and-play.
This could be a managed service offered by a ISP, gas meters service in 
a city, etc.

Regards, B.
>
> Linda
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Benoit Claise
> Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2014 3:14 PM
> To: anima@ietf.org; homenet@ietf.org
> Subject: [Anima] ANIMA scope + homenet interaction + charter v15
>
> Dear all,
>
> [sorry for double-posting, but we need the specific feedback from the HOMENET community]
>
> 1. scope
> I finished reading the ANIMA mailing list and, based on the feedback, Joel, Ted, and I would like to clarify the ANIMA scope for "the set of specific reusable infrastructure components that support autonomic interactions between devices" (quoting the charter)
>
> The charter currently mentions:
>       The ANIMA working group will initially focus on enterprise, ISP networks and IoT.
>
> Multiple tracks were discussed on the mailing list.
>       * keep enterprise, ISP networks and IoT
>       * focus on enterprise and ISP networks
>       * everything, but the initial focus is enterprise and carrier?
>       * professionally-managed networks
>
> It seems to us that "professionally-managed networks" is what ANIMA is after. And it's potentially a distraction to try to segment the scope based on enterprise, ISP, homenet, or IoT. What is IoT after all?
>
> OLD:     The ANIMA working group will initially focus on enterprise, ISP
> networks and IoT.
> NEW:    The ANIMA working group focuses on professionally-managed networks.
>
> Does it sound about right?
>
> 2. Overlap with HOMENET
> This distinction in point 1 might help regarding the potential overlap of the solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management.
> Btw, the new charter has been adapted:
> OLD:  A solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management within a network.
> NEW: the solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management within a large-scale network
>
> Also, The HOMENET collaboration has been stressed in the charter.
>
> 3. Others
> I believe I took care of the others changes proposed on the mailing. If this is not the case, let me know.
> At this point in time, please provide concrete change to the charter text if some issues persist.
> Charter v15 has just been posted, and you can review the detailed changes at https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-14.txt&difftype=--html&submit=Go!&url2=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-15.txt
>
>
> 4. Security Advisor.
> I have requested one for ANIMA to the security ADs.
>
> Regards, Benoit
>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> .
>


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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2014 17:16:36 +0100
From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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To: Laurent Ciavaglia <Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, Rene Struik <rstruik.ext@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] ANIMA scope + homenet interaction + charter v15
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> Dear all,
>
> I agree with Rene and Brian on the need to consider constrained networks.
> However, I don't think that "professionally-managed networks" 
> automatically exclude such environments.
>
> As Barbara S. mentioned in 
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/homenet/current/msg04008.html, 
> there can be multiple scenarios with different roles, and different 
> devices being managed.
Exactly.

Regards, Benoit
>
> My opinion is that covering the scenario of professionally-managed 
> consrained (and less constrained) networks is a challenging one, from 
> which we could derive "good" common, re-usable protocols/components.
>
> Best regards, Laurent.
>
>
> On 28/10/2014 23:48, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>> On 29/10/2014 10:37, Rene Struik wrote:
>>> Hi Benoit:
>>>
>>> -1 on you suggestion #1.
>>>
>>> I do not think suggesting "constrained networks and devices" to be
>>> suddenly out of scope helps: it is one of the main areas where
>>> semi-automatic management is imperative.
>> Rene has a point. My +1 was with the idea of limiting the initially
>> worked-out use cases, and avoiding any direct interference with
>> progress in homenet. But understanding the requirements for
>> constrained networks is desirable. What I don't know is whether
>> those requirements can in fact be met by the same infrastructure
>> components that we need for "professionally managed" networks.
>> There may simply not be enough overlap between "nimble and
>> heterogeneous" and "managed and homogeneous."
>>
>>     Brian
>>
>> If one has a bootstrapping
>>> solution and configuration negotiation/synchronization protocol that is
>>> not useful in constrained settings, what is the point? In my mind, it
>>> seems much more prudent to design schemes with constrained networks and
>>> devices and failure recovery models that apply there (configuration
>>> mismatch due to sleepy devices, malfunctioning data store, etc.), where
>>> these would then obviously also fit the less constrained,
>>> "professionally managed" networks. Design for the"nimble", so that both
>>> "nimble" and "fatter" networks can use this.
>>>
>>> This also has the advantage that one is forced to think in terms of many
>>> potential actors, rather than a few ones, which helps in viewing
>>> solutions in terms of heterogeneous rather than homogeneous deployment
>>> models.
>>>
>>> I have done all my reviews of nmrg drafts
>>> (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00327.html) with
>>> constrained networks and devices in mind. It would be a shame if one
>>> would now narrow down the focus and rule this (future almost ubiquitous)
>>> deployment category out of scope.
>>>
>>> Or, is this a political ploy, so as to avoid a turf war with homenet
>>> people?
>>>
>>> If that is the case, it would be much more prudent to have another BoF
>>> to iron out some of these issues. {This may be prudent for reasons I
>>> already indicated in the same #00327 message as well - I will  not
>>> repeat those arguments here.}
>>>
>>> Best regards, Rene
>>>
>>> On 10/28/2014 4:13 PM, Benoit Claise wrote:
>>>> Dear all,
>>>>
>>>> [sorry for double-posting, but we need the specific feedback from the
>>>> HOMENET community]
>>>>
>>>> 1. scope
>>>> I finished reading the ANIMA mailing list and, based on the feedback,
>>>> Joel, Ted, and I would like to clarify the ANIMA scope for "the set of
>>>> specific reusable infrastructure components that support autonomic
>>>> interactions between devices" (quoting the charter)
>>>>
>>>> The charter currently mentions:
>>>>      The ANIMA working group will initially focus on enterprise, ISP
>>>> networks and IoT.
>>>>
>>>> Multiple tracks were discussed on the mailing list.
>>>>      * keep enterprise, ISP networks and IoT
>>>>      * focus on enterprise and ISP networks
>>>>      * everything, but the initial focus is enterprise and carrier?
>>>>      * professionally-managed networks
>>>>
>>>> It seems to us that "professionally-managed networks" is what ANIMA is
>>>> after. And it's potentially a distraction to try to segment the scope
>>>> based on enterprise, ISP, homenet, or IoT. What is IoT after all?
>>>>
>>>> OLD:     The ANIMA working group will initially focus on enterprise,
>>>> ISP networks and IoT.
>>>> NEW:    The ANIMA working group focuses on professionally-managed
>>>> networks.
>>>>
>>>> Does it sound about right?
>>>>
>>>> 2. Overlap with HOMENET
>>>> This distinction in point 1 might help regarding the potential overlap
>>>> of the solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management.
>>>> Btw, the new charter has been adapted:
>>>> OLD:  A solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management within a network.
>>>> NEW: the solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management within a
>>>> large-scale network
>>>>
>>>> Also, The HOMENET collaboration has been stressed in the charter.
>>>>
>>>> 3. Others
>>>> I believe I took care of the others changes proposed on the mailing.
>>>> If this is not the case, let me know.
>>>> At this point in time, please provide concrete change to the charter
>>>> text if some issues persist.
>>>> Charter v15 has just been posted, and you can review the detailed
>>>> changes at
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-14.txt&difftype=--html&submit=Go!&url2=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-15.txt
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 4. Security Advisor.
>>>> I have requested one for ANIMA to the security ADs.
>>>>
>>>> Regards, Benoit
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> homenet mailing list
>>>> homenet@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>
>
> -- 
>
> Bien cordialement, Best regards,
>
> *Laurent Ciavaglia*
>
> Advanced Internet Research
>
> Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent
>
> phone: +33 160 402 636
>
> email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 
> <mailto:laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>
>
> linkedin: laurentciavaglia <http://fr.linkedin.com/in/laurentciavaglia/>
>
> address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France
>


--------------030205040509040700080208
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

<html>
  <head>
    <meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
      http-equiv="Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:5450B98F.9060908@alcatel-lucent.com"
      type="cite">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
        charset=windows-1252">
      <font face="Courier New">Dear all,<br>
        <br>
        I agree with Rene and Brian on the need to consider constrained
        networks.<br>
        However, I don't think that "professionally-managed networks"
        automatically exclude such environments.<br>
        <br>
        As Barbara S. mentioned in <a moz-do-not-send="true"
          class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/homenet/current/msg04008.html">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/homenet/current/msg04008.html</a>,
        there can be multiple scenarios with different roles, and
        different devices being managed.<br>
      </font></blockquote>
    Exactly.<br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit
    <blockquote cite="mid:5450B98F.9060908@alcatel-lucent.com"
      type="cite"><font face="Courier New"> <br>
        My opinion is that covering the scenario of
        professionally-managed consrained (and less constrained)
        networks is a challenging one, from which we could derive "good"
        common, re-usable protocols/components.<br>
        <br>
        Best regards, Laurent.<br>
        <br>
        <br>
      </font>
      <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 28/10/2014 23:48, Brian E
        Carpenter wrote:<br>
      </div>
      <blockquote cite="mid:54501D28.4090908@gmail.com" type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">On 29/10/2014 10:37, Rene Struik wrote:
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">Hi Benoit:

-1 on you suggestion #1.

I do not think suggesting "constrained networks and devices" to be
suddenly out of scope helps: it is one of the main areas where
semi-automatic management is imperative. 
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">Rene has a point. My +1 was with the idea of limiting the initially
worked-out use cases, and avoiding any direct interference with
progress in homenet. But understanding the requirements for
constrained networks is desirable. What I don't know is whether
those requirements can in fact be met by the same infrastructure
components that we need for "professionally managed" networks.
There may simply not be enough overlap between "nimble and
heterogeneous" and "managed and homogeneous."

   Brian

If one has a bootstrapping
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">solution and configuration negotiation/synchronization protocol that is
not useful in constrained settings, what is the point? In my mind, it
seems much more prudent to design schemes with constrained networks and
devices and failure recovery models that apply there (configuration
mismatch due to sleepy devices, malfunctioning data store, etc.), where
these would then obviously also fit the less constrained,
"professionally managed" networks. Design for the"nimble", so that both
"nimble" and "fatter" networks can use this.

This also has the advantage that one is forced to think in terms of many
potential actors, rather than a few ones, which helps in viewing
solutions in terms of heterogeneous rather than homogeneous deployment
models.

I have done all my reviews of nmrg drafts
(<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00327.html">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00327.html</a>) with
constrained networks and devices in mind. It would be a shame if one
would now narrow down the focus and rule this (future almost ubiquitous)
deployment category out of scope.

Or, is this a political ploy, so as to avoid a turf war with homenet
people?

If that is the case, it would be much more prudent to have another BoF
to iron out some of these issues. {This may be prudent for reasons I
already indicated in the same #00327 message as well - I will  not
repeat those arguments here.}

Best regards, Rene

On 10/28/2014 4:13 PM, Benoit Claise wrote:
</pre>
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <pre wrap="">Dear all,

[sorry for double-posting, but we need the specific feedback from the
HOMENET community]

1. scope
I finished reading the ANIMA mailing list and, based on the feedback,
Joel, Ted, and I would like to clarify the ANIMA scope for "the set of
specific reusable infrastructure components that support autonomic
interactions between devices" (quoting the charter)

The charter currently mentions:
    The ANIMA working group will initially focus on enterprise, ISP
networks and IoT.

Multiple tracks were discussed on the mailing list.
    * keep enterprise, ISP networks and IoT
    * focus on enterprise and ISP networks
    * everything, but the initial focus is enterprise and carrier?
    * professionally-managed networks

It seems to us that "professionally-managed networks" is what ANIMA is
after. And it's potentially a distraction to try to segment the scope
based on enterprise, ISP, homenet, or IoT. What is IoT after all?

OLD:     The ANIMA working group will initially focus on enterprise,
ISP networks and IoT.
NEW:    The ANIMA working group focuses on professionally-managed
networks.

Does it sound about right?

2. Overlap with HOMENET
This distinction in point 1 might help regarding the potential overlap
of the solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management.
Btw, the new charter has been adapted:
OLD:  A solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management within a network.
NEW: the solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management within a
large-scale network

Also, The HOMENET collaboration has been stressed in the charter.

3. Others
I believe I took care of the others changes proposed on the mailing.
If this is not the case, let me know.
At this point in time, please provide concrete change to the charter
text if some issues persist.
Charter v15 has just been posted, and you can review the detailed
changes at
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-14.txt&amp;difftype=--html&amp;submit=Go%21&amp;url2=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-15.txt">https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-14.txt&amp;difftype=--html&amp;submit=Go!&amp;url2=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-15.txt</a>



4. Security Advisor.
I have requested one for ANIMA to the security ADs.

Regards, Benoit

_______________________________________________
homenet mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:homenet@ietf.org">homenet@ietf.org</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet</a>
</pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre wrap="">
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a>

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State changed to IESG review.

URL: http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/


From nobody Wed Oct 29 09:28:34 2014
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Subject: [Anima] Benoit Claise's Yes on charter-ietf-anima-00-15: (with COMMENT)
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Benoit Claise has entered the following ballot position for
charter-ietf-anima-00-15: Yes

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Charter v15 has been posted, hopefully addressing the latest issues.
As discussed with Ted, Joel and me, we need to make sure that:
1. the (perceived) overlap with the HOMENET is clarified
2. the HOMENET community provides some feedback on v15
Therefore, Ted will be holding a BLOCK until the two conditions are met.

Unless there are no more BLOCKs on the ANIMA charter, the ANIMA meeting
in IETF 91 will be a WG-forming BoF, with Brian Carpenter and Michael
Behringer as BoF chairs.

Regards, Benoit



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--=-=-=


Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:
    > [sorry for double-posting, but we need the specific feedback from the HOMENET
    > community]

    > 1. scope
    > I finished reading the ANIMA mailing list and, based on the feedback, Joel,
    > Ted, and I would like to clarify the ANIMA scope for "the set of specific
    > reusable infrastructure components that support autonomic interactions
    > between devices" (quoting the charter)

    > The charter currently mentions:
    > The ANIMA working group will initially focus on enterprise, ISP networks
    > and IoT.

    > Multiple tracks were discussed on the mailing list.
    > * keep enterprise, ISP networks and IoT
    > * focus on enterprise and ISP networks
    > * everything, but the initial focus is enterprise and carrier?
    > * professionally-managed networks

    > It seems to us that "professionally-managed networks" is what ANIMA is
    > after. And it's potentially a distraction to try to segment the scope based
    > on enterprise, ISP, homenet, or IoT. What is IoT after all?

(I came to this thread backwards, sorry)
I agree with this change. +1000.
This gets EXACTLY gets to the point.

    > 4. Security Advisor.
    > I have requested one for ANIMA to the security ADs.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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From nobody Wed Oct 29 11:42:15 2014
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the revisions of this charter since I last reviewed it. 
The shortening of the text is very helpful.

Para 2
s/build/builds/  or  s/build/will build/

Para 2
Is the work from the NMRG documented anywhere that can be referenced?
I see the later reference to draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis, but I 
wonder whether there is anything published as a stable reference to
the definitions, design goals and architectural model.

Penultimate para
s/an reference/a reference/



From nobody Wed Oct 29 12:22:52 2014
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Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 08:22:48 +1300
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Adrian Farrel's No Objection on charter-ietf-anima-00-15: (with COMMENT)
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Adrian,

draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions is the companion
to the gap analysis. I'd say that these two NMRG documents
are snapshots of current thinking rather than final outputs,
because I expect the research debate on this topic to continue
for a long time.

Regards
   Brian

On 30/10/2014 07:42, Adrian Farrel wrote:
> Adrian Farrel has entered the following ballot position for
> charter-ietf-anima-00-15: No Objection
> 
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
> 
> 
> 
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Thanks for the revisions of this charter since I last reviewed it. 
> The shortening of the text is very helpful.
> 
> Para 2
> s/build/builds/  or  s/build/will build/
> 
> Para 2
> Is the work from the NMRG documented anywhere that can be referenced?
> I see the later reference to draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis, but I 
> wonder whether there is anything published as a stable reference to
> the definitions, design goals and architectural model.
> 
> Penultimate para
> s/an reference/a reference/
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> 


From nobody Wed Oct 29 12:36:26 2014
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charter-ietf-anima-00-15: Block

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
BLOCK:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Holding the block in this WG format to allow time for solicited feedback
on the updated charter.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

>From Benoit, Comment (2014-10-29) 

Charter v15 has been posted, hopefully addressing the latest issues.
As discussed with Ted, Joel and me, we need to make sure that:
1. the (perceived) overlap with the HOMENET is clarified
2. the HOMENET community provides some feedback on v15
Therefore, Ted will be holding a BLOCK until the two conditions are met.



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Ted Lemon has entered the following ballot position for
charter-ietf-anima-00-15: Block

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
BLOCK:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

The thing I still see missing in this charter is an explanation of how
"professionally managed" and "autonomic" mesh.   What does it mean for an
autonomic network to be professionally managed?   What distinguishes an
anima network from a homenet, for example?   The charter still reads as
though it's solving the same problem as homenet; I realize that this
isn't what the proponents actually have in mind, but some greater clarity
would be nice: it's still not clear in my mind from reading the charter
or from my discussion with Joel and Benoit.





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Ted,

> The thing I still see missing in this charter is an explanation of how
> "professionally managed" and "autonomic" mesh.   What does it mean for an
> autonomic network to be professionally managed?   

I think the question is the other way round: what does it take for
a professionally managed network to be (partially) autonomic?
Which of course is intended to reduce the tedious part of the
management work, without removing managerial control. Answering
that question is the WG's purpose.

So, a professionally managed network is one that has professional
managers. I don't think we mean anything more subtle than that.

> What distinguishes an
> anima network from a homenet, for example?   The charter still reads as
> though it's solving the same problem as homenet; 

It is, but it's solving it for a different type of network: for example,
a network that's a thousand times bigger than a homenet, has many more
types of parameter to configure, has paying customers with contracts,
has staff on duty 24x7, and a 99.999% availability target.

That doesn't logically exclude common components in the solution,
of course. But there are IMHO strong reasons not to create any dependency
of homenet on results from anima.

   Brian

> I realize that this
> isn't what the proponents actually have in mind, but some greater clarity
> would be nice: it's still not clear in my mind from reading the charter
> or from my discussion with Joel and Benoit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> 


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On Oct 29, 2014, at 9:20 PM, Brian E Carpenter =
<brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
> That doesn't logically exclude common components in the solution,
> of course. But there are IMHO strong reasons not to create any =
dependency
> of homenet on results from anima.

I agree.  I just don't see that in the charter.   To be clear, simply =
saying "we will consult homenet" and "we are interested in =
professionally managed networks" doesn't really convey that point, =
because you haven't said how what you are doing is different.  If the =
only difference is the size of the network, that's pretty weak, and I =
don't think that _is_ the only difference.   I think you intend to do =
something that looks a lot different, even if there are some common =
elements at the bottom.   I'm just asking you to articulate what that =
difference is in the charter.


From nobody Wed Oct 29 18:33:50 2014
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On 10/29/14 5:23 PM, Ted Lemon wrote:
> Ted Lemon has entered the following ballot position for
> charter-ietf-anima-00-15: Block
>=20
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this=

> introductory paragraph, however.)
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> BLOCK:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>=20
> The thing I still see missing in this charter is an explanation of how
> "professionally managed" and "autonomic" mesh.   What does it mean for =
an
> autonomic network to be professionally managed?

It implies to me that the parameters governing the system were applied
by a manager and not the product of a set of extrinsic initial
conditions and the expression of a set of algorithms.  That fact that
you can configure your homenet is not a necessary condition for it's
operation, and and fact you hope to have something operates in the
absence of signficant deliberate intent.

so to contrast.

=2E..
Additionally, management and optimisation of operational device
configurations is
expensive, tedious, and prone to human error.
=2E..
This WG is intended to mitigate this duplication of similar mechanisms
and heavy
dependency on human actions, in particular by facilitating secure
closed-loop
interaction directly between network elements to satisfy management inten=
t.
This motivates the introduction of a control paradigm where network
processes,
driven by objectives (or intent), coordinate their local decisions,
autonomically translate them into local actions, and adapt them
automatically
according to various sources of information including external
information and
protocol information bases.
=2E..

Speaks to the nature of managed, deliberately designed and laid out but
automatically triggered set of autonomic actions.

>  What distinguishes an
> anima network from a homenet, for example?   The charter still reads as=

> though it's solving the same problem as homenet;
>
> I realize that this
> isn't what the proponents actually have in mind, but some greater clari=
ty
> would be nice: it's still not clear in my mind from reading the charter=

> or from my discussion with Joel and Benoit.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20



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Subject: Re: [Anima] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-15: (with BLOCK)
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On Oct 29, 2014, at 9:33 PM, joel jaeggli <joelja@bogus.com> wrote:
> ...
> Additionally, management and optimisation of operational device
> configurations is
> expensive, tedious, and prone to human error.
> ...
> This WG is intended to mitigate this duplication of similar mechanisms
> and heavy
> dependency on human actions, in particular by facilitating secure
> closed-loop
> interaction directly between network elements to satisfy management =
intent.
> This motivates the introduction of a control paradigm where network
> processes,
> driven by objectives (or intent), coordinate their local decisions,
> autonomically translate them into local actions, and adapt them
> automatically
> according to various sources of information including external
> information and
> protocol information bases.
> ...
>=20
> Speaks to the nature of managed, deliberately designed and laid out =
but
> automatically triggered set of autonomic actions.

OK, that helps.   I didn't really get that from the text, though.   How =
about:

 This WG will develop a system of autonomic functions that carry
 out the intentions of the network operator without the need for =
detailed
 low-level management of individual devices.   This will be done by =
providing
 a secure closed-loop interaction mechanism whereby network elements
 cooperate directly to satisfy management intent.

 The working group will develop a control paradigm where network
 processes coordinate their decisions and automatically translate
 them into local actions, based on various sources of information
 including operator-supplied configuration information and protocol
 information bases.

But what are protocol information bases?   do you mean MIBs and YANG =
schemas?


From nobody Wed Oct 29 19:01:07 2014
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Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 15:01:05 +1300
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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To: Ted Lemon <Ted.Lemon@nominum.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-15: (with BLOCK)
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below...


On 30/10/2014 14:46, Ted Lemon wrote:
> On Oct 29, 2014, at 9:33 PM, joel jaeggli <joelja@bogus.com> wrote:
>> ...
>> Additionally, management and optimisation of operational device
>> configurations is
>> expensive, tedious, and prone to human error.
>> ...
>> This WG is intended to mitigate this duplication of similar mechanisms
>> and heavy
>> dependency on human actions, in particular by facilitating secure
>> closed-loop
>> interaction directly between network elements to satisfy management intent.
>> This motivates the introduction of a control paradigm where network
>> processes,
>> driven by objectives (or intent), coordinate their local decisions,
>> autonomically translate them into local actions, and adapt them
>> automatically
>> according to various sources of information including external
>> information and
>> protocol information bases.
>> ...
>>
>> Speaks to the nature of managed, deliberately designed and laid out but
>> automatically triggered set of autonomic actions.
> 
> OK, that helps.   I didn't really get that from the text, though.   How about:
> 
>  This WG will develop a system of autonomic functions that carry
>  out the intentions of the network operator without the need for detailed
>  low-level management of individual devices.   This will be done by providing
>  a secure closed-loop interaction mechanism whereby network elements
>  cooperate directly to satisfy management intent.
> 
>  The working group will develop a control paradigm where network
>  processes coordinate their decisions and automatically translate
>  them into local actions, based on various sources of information
>  including operator-supplied configuration information and protocol
>  information bases.

Works for me
> 
> But what are protocol information bases?   do you mean MIBs and YANG schemas?

I suppose, but probably these are really part of "operator-supplied configuration
information" anyway.

   Brian


From nobody Wed Oct 29 19:04:45 2014
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-15: (with BLOCK)
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On Oct 29, 2014, at 10:01 PM, Brian E Carpenter =
<brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
> I suppose, but probably these are really part of "operator-supplied =
configuration
> information" anyway.

Fewer words is always better. :)


From nobody Wed Oct 29 19:54:40 2014
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From nobody Wed Oct 29 20:13:07 2014
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From: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
To: "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Postpone this week's ANIMA teleconf
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From nobody Wed Oct 29 20:47:22 2014
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Hi Sheng:

Not sure whether the conf call was scheduled for 10am EDT, but -- if so 
-- I would strongly suggest *having* the conf call: there are simply too 
many outstanding issues. Even if, after evident horsetrading I see on 
the reflector right now, IESG may okay Anima to move to WG status, this 
process hurdle does not remove outstanding issues.

I think it would be good to put the two drafts 
draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions-04 and 
draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-02, since the weak logical tie of those 
two drafts to the draft charter seems to be at the heart of chartering 
discussion issues. Properly tackling those would also remove "problem 
statement" issues and paint this in a more technical way.

Best regards, Rene

On 10/29/2014 11:12 PM, Sheng Jiang wrote:
> Hi, all,
>
> So far, we still don't know whether the ANIMA meeting in the coming IETF91 meeting would be the second BoF or first WG meeting and the chairs are not yet known. The status may remain undecided till this week's IESG meeting on Thursday.
>
> So, there is no much point we hold a agenda discussion teleconf before that. Let's postpone this week's ANIMA teleconf to next Monday (Nov. 3rd). Hopefully, by next Monday, IESG have made a decision.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Sheng
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


-- 
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From nobody Wed Oct 29 20:50:56 2014
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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] ANIMA scope + homenet interaction + charter v15
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Hi Brian:

It is very puzzling to me to see essential deployments that would be a 
test case on viability of the concept of semi-automatic management (in 
casu: constrained networks and devices) being removed from the charter. 
I have not seen any technical justification for ruling this out of order 
(nor do I know who decides on this - consensus?).

If one emphasizes so much the "professionally managed" aspect, this 
seems to suggest that whatever "solution" Anima (or, perhaps, simply the 
co-authors of the three anima drafts mentioned in the draft charter?) 
have in mind may not meet or closely approximate the whole idea of 
"autonous" operation (at least, as I understand this after reading all 
drafts referred to in the draft charter and producing 15 pages of 
comments on this).

I, for one, think we can minimize these differences and define an 
architecture and a set of protocols that mostly only differ in policy 
and configuration settings for "professionally managed" and "highly 
constrained devices and networks". I think I have made this point in my 
extensive comments.

I am happy to make this concrete once the group meets during IETF-91, 
but certainly already declaring things out of order without accompanying 
technical discussion and analysis, effectively stymies this.

During IETF-91, I think we need to spend much more time on discussing 
draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis and 
draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions-04, since improving those 
seem to attack the festering chartering problems at the heart. I would 
happily volunteer elaborating on this during the two Anima meeting slots.

Best regards, Rene

On 10/28/2014 6:48 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> On 29/10/2014 10:37, Rene Struik wrote:
>> Hi Benoit:
>>
>> -1 on you suggestion #1.
>>
>> I do not think suggesting "constrained networks and devices" to be
>> suddenly out of scope helps: it is one of the main areas where
>> semi-automatic management is imperative.
> Rene has a point. My +1 was with the idea of limiting the initially
> worked-out use cases, and avoiding any direct interference with
> progress in homenet. But understanding the requirements for
> constrained networks is desirable. What I don't know is whether
> those requirements can in fact be met by the same infrastructure
> components that we need for "professionally managed" networks.
> There may simply not be enough overlap between "nimble and
> heterogeneous" and "managed and homogeneous."
>
>     Brian
>
> If one has a bootstrapping
>> solution and configuration negotiation/synchronization protocol that is
>> not useful in constrained settings, what is the point? In my mind, it
>> seems much more prudent to design schemes with constrained networks and
>> devices and failure recovery models that apply there (configuration
>> mismatch due to sleepy devices, malfunctioning data store, etc.), where
>> these would then obviously also fit the less constrained,
>> "professionally managed" networks. Design for the"nimble", so that both
>> "nimble" and "fatter" networks can use this.
>>
>> This also has the advantage that one is forced to think in terms of many
>> potential actors, rather than a few ones, which helps in viewing
>> solutions in terms of heterogeneous rather than homogeneous deployment
>> models.
>>
>> I have done all my reviews of nmrg drafts
>> (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00327.html) with
>> constrained networks and devices in mind. It would be a shame if one
>> would now narrow down the focus and rule this (future almost ubiquitous)
>> deployment category out of scope.
>>
>> Or, is this a political ploy, so as to avoid a turf war with homenet
>> people?
>>
>> If that is the case, it would be much more prudent to have another BoF
>> to iron out some of these issues. {This may be prudent for reasons I
>> already indicated in the same #00327 message as well - I will  not
>> repeat those arguments here.}
>>
>> Best regards, Rene
>>
>> On 10/28/2014 4:13 PM, Benoit Claise wrote:
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> [sorry for double-posting, but we need the specific feedback from the
>>> HOMENET community]
>>>
>>> 1. scope
>>> I finished reading the ANIMA mailing list and, based on the feedback,
>>> Joel, Ted, and I would like to clarify the ANIMA scope for "the set of
>>> specific reusable infrastructure components that support autonomic
>>> interactions between devices" (quoting the charter)
>>>
>>> The charter currently mentions:
>>>      The ANIMA working group will initially focus on enterprise, ISP
>>> networks and IoT.
>>>
>>> Multiple tracks were discussed on the mailing list.
>>>      * keep enterprise, ISP networks and IoT
>>>      * focus on enterprise and ISP networks
>>>      * everything, but the initial focus is enterprise and carrier?
>>>      * professionally-managed networks
>>>
>>> It seems to us that "professionally-managed networks" is what ANIMA is
>>> after. And it's potentially a distraction to try to segment the scope
>>> based on enterprise, ISP, homenet, or IoT. What is IoT after all?
>>>
>>> OLD:     The ANIMA working group will initially focus on enterprise,
>>> ISP networks and IoT.
>>> NEW:    The ANIMA working group focuses on professionally-managed
>>> networks.
>>>
>>> Does it sound about right?
>>>
>>> 2. Overlap with HOMENET
>>> This distinction in point 1 might help regarding the potential overlap
>>> of the solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management.
>>> Btw, the new charter has been adapted:
>>> OLD:  A solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management within a network.
>>> NEW: the solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management within a
>>> large-scale network
>>>
>>> Also, The HOMENET collaboration has been stressed in the charter.
>>>
>>> 3. Others
>>> I believe I took care of the others changes proposed on the mailing.
>>> If this is not the case, let me know.
>>> At this point in time, please provide concrete change to the charter
>>> text if some issues persist.
>>> Charter v15 has just been posted, and you can review the detailed
>>> changes at
>>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-14.txt&difftype=--html&submit=Go!&url2=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-15.txt
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 4. Security Advisor.
>>> I have requested one for ANIMA to the security ADs.
>>>
>>> Regards, Benoit
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> homenet mailing list
>>> homenet@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet
>>


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Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 00:07:44 -0400
From: Rene Struik <rstruik.ext@gmail.com>
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To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>,  Ted Lemon <Ted.Lemon@nominum.com>
References: <20141030002338.25808.63071.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <54519567.8020201@bogus.com> <62558186-114B-43DD-AFBF-29717C804D68@nominum.com> <54519BE1.4010003@gmail.com>
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Cc: Joel Jaeggli <joelja@bogus.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, anima@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Anima] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-15: (with BLOCK)
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Dear colleagues:

I do appreciate word smything, but do not understand how the stated 
goals mentioned in the draft charter (charter-ietf-anima-00-15) tie into 
the text below and correlate with the "analyzed technical gaps in 
draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis"?

The text below seems to be entirely "operator" centric, which is 
contrary to what is mentioned in the 
"draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions" and 
"draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis-02" documents (the word "operator" is 
only mentioned in the "definition" draft in sections about non-goals;  
it is not mentioned in the "features needed" section of the 
"gap-analysis" draft).

More importantly (to me), but I already made this point, is that it 
seems to exclude from the scope the ultimate environment where 
semi-automatic networking could prove itself: constrained networks. If 
those networks are supposed to dwarf all other networks 10 years from 
now, wouldn't it be somewhat imprudent to put language in that is 
seemingly aimed at circumventing that area?

Best regards, Rene

On 10/29/2014 10:01 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> below...
>
>
> On 30/10/2014 14:46, Ted Lemon wrote:
>> On Oct 29, 2014, at 9:33 PM, joel jaeggli <joelja@bogus.com> wrote:
>>> ...
>>> Additionally, management and optimisation of operational device
>>> configurations is
>>> expensive, tedious, and prone to human error.
>>> ...
>>> This WG is intended to mitigate this duplication of similar mechanisms
>>> and heavy
>>> dependency on human actions, in particular by facilitating secure
>>> closed-loop
>>> interaction directly between network elements to satisfy management intent.
>>> This motivates the introduction of a control paradigm where network
>>> processes,
>>> driven by objectives (or intent), coordinate their local decisions,
>>> autonomically translate them into local actions, and adapt them
>>> automatically
>>> according to various sources of information including external
>>> information and
>>> protocol information bases.
>>> ...
>>>
>>> Speaks to the nature of managed, deliberately designed and laid out but
>>> automatically triggered set of autonomic actions.
>> OK, that helps.   I didn't really get that from the text, though.   How about:
>>
>>   This WG will develop a system of autonomic functions that carry
>>   out the intentions of the network operator without the need for detailed
>>   low-level management of individual devices.   This will be done by providing
>>   a secure closed-loop interaction mechanism whereby network elements
>>   cooperate directly to satisfy management intent.
>>
>>   The working group will develop a control paradigm where network
>>   processes coordinate their decisions and automatically translate
>>   them into local actions, based on various sources of information
>>   including operator-supplied configuration information and protocol
>>   information bases.
> Works for me
>> But what are protocol information bases?   do you mean MIBs and YANG schemas?
> I suppose, but probably these are really part of "operator-supplied configuration
> information" anyway.
>
>     Brian
>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


-- 
email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363


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From: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
To: Rene Struik <rstruik.ext@gmail.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Postpone this week's ANIMA teleconf
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From nobody Thu Oct 30 01:53:02 2014
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Homogeneous vs. heterogeneous trust domains (Re: What elements of IETF ANIMA can be used for I2NSF?)
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On 29.10.2014, at 4.47, Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com> =
wrote:
>> I claim that there is doesn't matter where the initial imprinting =
occurs;
> Perhaps I'm being overly literal, but aren't there situations
> where physical location might actually matter, as in setting
> DVD region codes?

I agree with mcr.=20

But first, being even more literal. The factories ship DVD players =
imprinted with appropriate region codes, and the imprinting for my =
blu-ray player says Europe, despite it being manufactured somewhere on =
the Korean peninsula.=20

Of course, if this was security thing _I_ cared about, as opposed to a =
mechanism for protecting someone else, I would rather have local control =
of imprinting and not trust the manufacturer provided keys (at least, if =
my security requirements were high enough). Of course, could I trust the =
manufacturer=92s hardware not to have backdoors and such is another =
topic for conversation. But extreme paranoia leads to inability of using =
anything not done from scratch yourself, is prohibitively expensive, and =
most likely fails anyway. So reasonable threat models and deciding which =
threats to actually are worth trying to mitigate is key here :)

At any rate, it is possible that either your IT organization, or even =
your manufacturer or reseller or whoever could slip in appropriate =
material on device much before it is actually deployed anywhere.=20

Cheers,

-Markus=


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On 28.10.2014, at 22.13, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:
> 1. scope
> OLD:     The ANIMA working group will initially focus on enterprise, =
ISP networks and IoT.
> NEW:    The ANIMA working group focuses on professionally-managed =
networks.

+1. This is what I was trying to get earlier (but apparently just =
dropping IoT did not describe it fully due to potentially managed IoT =
networks too; I am too stuck in my home IoT rut I guess).

> Does it sound about right?
> 2. Overlap with HOMENET
> This distinction in point 1 might help regarding the potential overlap =
of the solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management.
> Btw, the new charter has been adapted:
> OLD:  A solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management within a =
network.
> NEW: the solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management within a =
large-scale network

I would personally rather drop prefix management. At least, the current =
proposed solution is DHCPv6 PD plus lot of marketing plus one extra =
thing (role) minus tons of existing functionality. I would rather stick =
the role into PD, than reinvent the protocol.

If there is not something more novel there (that is, not hierarchical PD =
in disguise), I do not see the point.

> Also, The HOMENET collaboration has been stressed in the charter.
>=20
> 3. Others
> I believe I took care of the others changes proposed on the mailing. =
If this is not the case, let me know.
> At this point in time, please provide concrete change to the charter =
text if some issues persist.
> Charter v15 has just been posted, and you can review the detailed =
changes at =
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fd=
oc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-14.txt&difftype=3D--html&submi=
t=3DGo!&url2=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-ani=
ma%2Fwithmilestones-00-15.txt

I think it is mostly fine, although the use of term =91autonomous=92 for =
essentially (on high level) managed devices that perform some low-level =
autonomic functions sounds still strange to me. I guess I could live =
with it though.

Cheers,

-Markus



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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] ANIMA scope + homenet interaction + charter v15
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On 30.10.2014, at 14.00, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:
> On Oct 30, 2014, at 5:08 AM, Markus Stenberg <markus.stenberg@iki.fi> =
wrote:
>> I would personally rather drop prefix management. At least, the =
current proposed solution is DHCPv6 PD plus lot of marketing plus one =
extra thing (role) minus tons of existing functionality. I would rather =
stick the role into PD, than reinvent the protocol.
> Hierarchical PD doesn't work or even make sense.   Flow-through PD =
does, but hasn't been described in an RFC: there is no mechanism for =
autonomously configuring the relay structure or installing routes.   So =
I think it's appropriate to do this work in ANIMA (I know there is no =
enthusiasm for it in homenet).   Or, if that turns out to be an =
inadequate solution, to do something else.

I hope someone tells that to Cablelabs, I thought eRouter spec had =
hierarchical PD (=3Dhipnet).

ANIMA=92s current solution[1] does not seem to deal with autonomously =
configuring the delegation hierarchy, or routes in general at all =
currently.

What does flow-through PD mean? Do you have any reference on that?

Cheers,

-Markus

[1] http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-00=


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Subject: Re: [Anima] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-15: (with BLOCK)
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On Oct 29, 2014, at 10:54 PM, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com> wrote:
> I have no problem to remove "protocol information bases". My guess is =
it means the control paradigm will also combine information from the =
existing protocols, such as routing protocol, etc.

Ah, perhaps you should say that, then.

> Should we update the online draft charter now (only Benoit has the =
access)? Or you can clear your BLOCK based on that we have accepted the =
proposed text?

Let's get the text the way we want in the charter, and then I will =
clear.   There's no rush here--we have all agreed to the path forward, =
and I think we're pretty clearly on track for the meeting in Honolulu to =
be a WG meeting and not a BoF.


From nobody Thu Oct 30 05:19:27 2014
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-15: (with BLOCK)
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On Oct 30, 2014, at 12:07 AM, Rene Struik <rstruik.ext@gmail.com> wrote:
> More importantly (to me), but I already made this point, is that it =
seems to exclude from the scope the ultimate environment where =
semi-automatic networking could prove itself: constrained networks. If =
those networks are supposed to dwarf all other networks 10 years from =
now, wouldn't it be somewhat imprudent to put language in that is =
seemingly aimed at circumventing that area?

I don't see where in the current charter constrained networks are =
excluded.   Indeed, I don't even find the word "constrained" in the =
charter.   Why do you think they are excluded?=


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Subject: Re: [Anima] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-15: (with BLOCK)
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There was a thread on a draft charter change that suddenly happened 
between version 14 and 15:

See, e.g.,  my earlier message 
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00499.html in 
response to this. Brian Carpenter et al also weighed in here.

[excerpt email Benoit Claise, 
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00496.html]
It seems to us that "professionally-managed networks" is what ANIMA is
after. And it's potentially a distraction to try to segment the scope
based on enterprise, ISP, homenet, or IoT. What is IoT after all?

OLD:     The ANIMA working group will initially focus on enterprise,
ISP networks and IoT.
NEW:    The ANIMA working group focuses on professionally-managed
networks

On 10/30/2014 8:18 AM, Ted Lemon wrote:
> On Oct 30, 2014, at 12:07 AM, Rene Struik <rstruik.ext@gmail.com> wrote:
>> More importantly (to me), but I already made this point, is that it seems to exclude from the scope the ultimate environment where semi-automatic networking could prove itself: constrained networks. If those networks are supposed to dwarf all other networks 10 years from now, wouldn't it be somewhat imprudent to put language in that is seemingly aimed at circumventing that area?
> I don't see where in the current charter constrained networks are excluded.   Indeed, I don't even find the word "constrained" in the charter.   Why do you think they are excluded?


-- 
email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363


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From: Ted Lemon <Ted.Lemon@nominum.com>
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On Oct 30, 2014, at 8:44 AM, Rene Struik <rstruik.ext@gmail.com> wrote:
> It seems to us that "professionally-managed networks" is what ANIMA is
> after. And it's potentially a distraction to try to segment the scope
> based on enterprise, ISP, homenet, or IoT. What is IoT after all?

Right.   The problem is that IoT is not a good class distinction to =
make, not that IoT is out of scope.   Some IoTs are in scope; others are =
not.   What distinguishes the two is whether they are top-down =
("professionally") managed, or are expected to self-configure without =
operator intervention.   The latter case is out of scope.


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Subject: Re: [Anima] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-15: (with BLOCK)
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Hi Ted:

There is virtually never almost complete self-configuration, even in not 
professionally managed networks (whatever the term means - see, e.g., 
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/homenet/current/msg04008.html).

More importantly to charter discussions: none of the "professionally 
managed"  and strictly "operator base" was brought during the Anima conf 
calls I have been on. Either I have missed this (please provide a 
pointers to Anima charter discussions and consensus conclusion there) or 
there is some backroom discussion where this was discussed. In case of 
the latter that is fine, but still up to debate in Anima chartering sense.

Best regards, Rene

On 10/30/2014 8:54 AM, Ted Lemon wrote:
> On Oct 30, 2014, at 8:44 AM, Rene Struik <rstruik.ext@gmail.com> wrote:
>> It seems to us that "professionally-managed networks" is what ANIMA is
>> after. And it's potentially a distraction to try to segment the scope
>> based on enterprise, ISP, homenet, or IoT. What is IoT after all?
> Right.   The problem is that IoT is not a good class distinction to make, not that IoT is out of scope.   Some IoTs are in scope; others are not.   What distinguishes the two is whether they are top-down ("professionally") managed, or are expected to self-configure without operator intervention.   The latter case is out of scope.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


-- 
email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363


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On Oct 30, 2014, at 9:07 AM, Rene Struik <rstruik.ext@gmail.com> wrote:
> More importantly to charter discussions: none of the "professionally =
managed"  and strictly "operator base" was brought during the Anima conf =
calls I have been on. Either I have missed this (please provide a =
pointers to Anima charter discussions and consensus conclusion there) or =
there is some backroom discussion where this was discussed. In case of =
the latter that is fine, but still up to debate in Anima chartering =
sense.

That's between you and the ops ADs.   I'm just telling you what we've =
discussed.   If you want unmanaged ad-hoc configuration, that's already =
in homenet's charter, so I think it's out of scope for a new working =
group.


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--=-=-=


Markus Stenberg <markus.stenberg@iki.fi> wrote:

    > On 29.10.2014, at 4.47, Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com> wrote:
    >>> I claim that there is doesn't matter where the initial imprinting occurs;

    randy> Perhaps I'm being overly literal, but aren't there situations
    randy> where physical location might actually matter, as in setting
    randy> DVD region codes?

    markus> I agree with mcr.

I think that Markus went into some DVD specific thing without answering the
aim of the question.

I don't think that the physical location ought to matter at all; what I think
matters is that the some organizations need autonomic mechanisms, but do not
wish to do this "in the field", while other organizations have the opposite
requirement.

Let me give two examples.  The first is made up (i.e. I have no specific
knowledge of it), while the second is one that I experience regularly.

1) a military and/or aid organization (think Medecin sans Frontier) receives
   a stack of equipment to their warehouse in New Jersey.  Let's they are
   setting up for a "MASH"-like installation.  They uncrate all the equipment,
   and plan to put 3x "typewriters", 1x microphone, 10x
   top-of-the-poll-loud-speaker, 2x mess-hall cash registers, 10x ventilators,
   2x cardiac machines.. (just imaging what a 2015-edition of "MASH 4077" might have).
   into each shipping container.
   In each case, they will power up the machines, in the warehouse, and some
   validation system will run once the machines are seen, and it will imprint
   the machines with the MSF identity.  The machines go *BACK* into their
   shipping boxes, and are distributed (mostly randomly) into shipping
   containers, one container per installation.
   {okay, today, we might rack mount it into the container and leave them
   in the container, but let's ignore that bit of modern lego work}

   The equipment might sit in the container for months to *decades* before
   it is actually deployed.  If there are any online processes that need to
   occur for the imprinting to occr, they occur in New Jersey where there is
   reliable power and Internet, not in Sierra Leone.

   If the equipment is stolen or redirected, etc. it likely won't trust any
   of the "hostile" networking equipment, and it won't be autonomic with it.
   This is good and intended.

2) a vendor (V) of security appliances buys 1U systems (Z) from vendor X.  Vendor X
   operates worldwide, and can provide fullfilment worldwide from local
   inventory to customer (C).

   Due to time, cost and excise issues, it is impractical to ship units
   from vendor X to V's office for installation and configuration.  In some
   cases mutually exclusive frequency assignments for things like wireless
   might even make it illegal to operate Z in V's country, and illegal for
   equipment in V's country to operate in C's country!
   (in the ways of 2mb/s 802.11 [no-letter] this was true)

   So the equipment is shipped by X to C, and C physically installs it in a
   new office.  Equipment Z has core routing functions. It would be ideal if
   equipment Z could recognize the network connections that it has, say who
   it is on them.  The autonomic process would then imprint the system.
   If system Z is being sold as a service, it might be that it gets imprinted
   to V.  It might get imprinted to C.  Or it might be initially imprinted to
   V, installed, and then ownership transfered to C.
   The final location here might matter; it matters that it's been installed
   at the San Jose office rather than in the New York office.

   [Today, I, as vendor V, must instruct customer C, on connecting up the
   IPMI/ILO/iDrac, and opening a port 443, and if it's actually core routing
   equipment, we are probably screwed anyway]

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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From nobody Thu Oct 30 06:50:36 2014
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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] ANIMA scope + homenet interaction + charter v15
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Ted,

>> the "flow-through" model as far as I can recall suffers from DHCP's =
general problem of dealing with multiple sources of information (think =
multihoming with separate CE routers), in addition you either need to =
build what's essentially a spanning tree of DHCP relays or you need some =
mechanism to discover the set of DHCP server(s). certainly do-able, but =
not quite out of the box.
>=20
> Actually it doesn't suffer from this problem.   You just wind up =
getting a prefix delegation per edge router, and when you get a =
delegation, you add that edge router to the list of routers to which you =
will relay downstream prefix delegation requests.   You do not need =
spanning tree because if you reach the same router through two different =
paths, you will just get the same delegation twice per DUID/IAID.
>=20
> The reason homenet didn't go with this solution is essentially that =
HNCP has a better feature set and is easier to make work in a homenet =
environment.
>=20
> (To be clear, I am just explaining the prefix delegation model.   If =
Anima doesn't want to do it that way, that's fine with me, just as it's =
fine with me that homenet went with HNCP.)
>=20

it isn't as obvious as you make it out to be. there is no point in us =
arguing over that here (we have had this exact argument previously), =
write a draft if you think the flow-through model is viable in a network =
with multiple edges and arbitrary topology.

cheers,
Ole=


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On Oct 30, 2014, at 5:08 AM, Markus Stenberg <markus.stenberg@iki.fi> =
wrote:
> I would personally rather drop prefix management. At least, the =
current proposed solution is DHCPv6 PD plus lot of marketing plus one =
extra thing (role) minus tons of existing functionality. I would rather =
stick the role into PD, than reinvent the protocol.

Hierarchical PD doesn't work or even make sense.   Flow-through PD does, =
but hasn't been described in an RFC: there is no mechanism for =
autonomously configuring the relay structure or installing routes.   So =
I think it's appropriate to do this work in ANIMA (I know there is no =
enthusiasm for it in homenet).   Or, if that turns out to be an =
inadequate solution, to do something else.


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On Oct 30, 2014, at 8:08 AM, Markus Stenberg <markus.stenberg@iki.fi> =
wrote:
> What does flow-through PD mean? Do you have any reference on that?

It means that the edge router has the delegation, and then sub-delegates =
individual /64s from the pool of /64s it was delegated by the ISP, =
rather than splitting its delegation and delegating chunks of that =
delegation to downstream routers which will then delegate in turn.   In =
order for this to work, downstream routers have to relay PD requests to =
the edge router, and install routes to the delegated prefixes.   =
Something analogous could work on an autonomous network; I don't know =
that it's the right way to solve the problem, but it's certainly one way =
to solve the problem.   Homenet went with HNCP because it's more =
sensitive to arbitrary topology changes.

The hierarchical model doesn't work because it doesn't anticipate new =
routers being added to the network, and doesn't account for unbalanced =
topologies.   I thought the hipnet proposal wound up going with the =
flow-through model, not the hierarchical model, but I may be mistaken.


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>> What does flow-through PD mean? Do you have any reference on that?
>=20
> It means that the edge router has the delegation, and then =
sub-delegates individual /64s from the pool of /64s it was delegated by =
the ISP, rather than splitting its delegation and delegating chunks of =
that delegation to downstream routers which will then delegate in turn.  =
 In order for this to work, downstream routers have to relay PD requests =
to the edge router, and install routes to the delegated prefixes.   =
Something analogous could work on an autonomous network; I don't know =
that it's the right way to solve the problem, but it's certainly one way =
to solve the problem.   Homenet went with HNCP because it's more =
sensitive to arbitrary topology changes.
>=20
> The hierarchical model doesn't work because it doesn't anticipate new =
routers being added to the network, and doesn't account for unbalanced =
topologies.   I thought the hipnet proposal wound up going with the =
flow-through model, not the hierarchical model, but I may be mistaken.

I think the homenet wg did a good of analysing the 3 variants proposed.
the "flow-through" model as far as I can recall suffers from DHCP's =
general problem of dealing with multiple sources of information (think =
multihoming with separate CE routers), in addition you either need to =
build what's essentially a spanning tree of DHCP relays or you need some =
mechanism to discover the set of DHCP server(s). certainly do-able, but =
not quite out of the box.

cheers,
Ole=


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On Oct 30, 2014, at 9:15 AM, Ole Troan <ot@cisco.com> wrote:
> the "flow-through" model as far as I can recall suffers from DHCP's =
general problem of dealing with multiple sources of information (think =
multihoming with separate CE routers), in addition you either need to =
build what's essentially a spanning tree of DHCP relays or you need some =
mechanism to discover the set of DHCP server(s). certainly do-able, but =
not quite out of the box.

Actually it doesn't suffer from this problem.   You just wind up getting =
a prefix delegation per edge router, and when you get a delegation, you =
add that edge router to the list of routers to which you will relay =
downstream prefix delegation requests.   You do not need spanning tree =
because if you reach the same router through two different paths, you =
will just get the same delegation twice per DUID/IAID.

The reason homenet didn't go with this solution is essentially that HNCP =
has a better feature set and is easier to make work in a homenet =
environment.

(To be clear, I am just explaining the prefix delegation model.   If =
Anima doesn't want to do it that way, that's fine with me, just as it's =
fine with me that homenet went with HNCP.)


From nobody Thu Oct 30 06:50:43 2014
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References: <544FF8FC.5090103@cisco.com> <95338658-B4F2-4634-AC7B-7B893C4DEF2E@iki.fi> <62A56FF8-EA71-4559-8929-0A03FA7785F9@fugue.com> <3743B3C2-D8F2-45C5-85F5-C53B18739FB3@iki.fi> <10925F8D-D2FB-4E96-B4CC-5C6F9158FE3C@fugue.com> <0A07B58F-9CDE-434D-9770-494D030312B6@cisco.com> <4D83DBA5-D5D5-411E-A9BE-6231BEB129F8@fugue.com>
To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>, Ole Troan <ot@cisco.com>
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Cc: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, HOMENET Working Group <homenet@ietf.org>, Markus Stenberg <markus.stenberg@iki.fi>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] ANIMA scope + homenet interaction + charter v15
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On Oct 30, 2014, at 9:26 AM 10/30/14, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> =
wrote:

> On Oct 30, 2014, at 9:15 AM, Ole Troan <ot@cisco.com> wrote:
>> the "flow-through" model as far as I can recall suffers from DHCP's =
general problem of dealing with multiple sources of information (think =
multihoming with separate CE routers), in addition you either need to =
build what's essentially a spanning tree of DHCP relays or you need some =
mechanism to discover the set of DHCP server(s). certainly do-able, but =
not quite out of the box.
>=20
> Actually it doesn't suffer from this problem.   You just wind up =
getting a prefix delegation per edge router, and when you get a =
delegation, you add that edge router to the list of routers to which you =
will relay downstream prefix delegation requests.   You do not need =
spanning tree because if you reach the same router through two different =
paths, you will just get the same delegation twice per DUID/IAID.

There may be a couple of areas where some small amount of protocol =
specification work would be required for the flow-through model:

* the requesting router would have to know to accept delegated prefixes =
from multiple delegating routers rather than just choosing one =
delegating router
* either each server would have to have its own set of relay agents, or =
a single set of relay agents would have to be provisioned dynamically =
with the list of delegating routers

- Ralph

>=20
> The reason homenet didn't go with this solution is essentially that =
HNCP has a better feature set and is easier to make work in a homenet =
environment.
>=20
> (To be clear, I am just explaining the prefix delegation model.   If =
Anima doesn't want to do it that way, that's fine with me, just as it's =
fine with me that homenet went with HNCP.)
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> homenet mailing list
> homenet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet


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Subject: [Anima] Stephen Farrell's No Objection on charter-ietf-anima-00-15: (with COMMENT)
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Stephen Farrell has entered the following ballot position for
charter-ietf-anima-00-15: No Objection

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------


I support Ted's block (I think:-).  I suspect that this will be sorted
out ok by the WG if it can be, but I'd also like some better clarity
on how the security bootstrapping here and in homenet are
related/differ.



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Subject: Re: [Anima] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-15: (with BLOCK)
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Thanks Ted for your proposed text.

Regards, Benoit
> On Oct 29, 2014, at 9:33 PM, joel jaeggli <joelja@bogus.com> wrote:
>> ...
>> Additionally, management and optimisation of operational device
>> configurations is
>> expensive, tedious, and prone to human error.
>> ...
>> This WG is intended to mitigate this duplication of similar mechanisms
>> and heavy
>> dependency on human actions, in particular by facilitating secure
>> closed-loop
>> interaction directly between network elements to satisfy management intent.
>> This motivates the introduction of a control paradigm where network
>> processes,
>> driven by objectives (or intent), coordinate their local decisions,
>> autonomically translate them into local actions, and adapt them
>> automatically
>> according to various sources of information including external
>> information and
>> protocol information bases.
>> ...
>>
>> Speaks to the nature of managed, deliberately designed and laid out but
>> automatically triggered set of autonomic actions.
> OK, that helps.   I didn't really get that from the text, though.   How about:
>
>   This WG will develop a system of autonomic functions that carry
>   out the intentions of the network operator without the need for detailed
>   low-level management of individual devices.   This will be done by providing
>   a secure closed-loop interaction mechanism whereby network elements
>   cooperate directly to satisfy management intent.
>
>   The working group will develop a control paradigm where network
>   processes coordinate their decisions and automatically translate
>   them into local actions, based on various sources of information
>   including operator-supplied configuration information and protocol
>   information bases.
>
> But what are protocol information bases?   do you mean MIBs and YANG schemas?
>
>


From nobody Thu Oct 30 07:24:25 2014
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Thanks Adrian, taken into account

Regards, Benoit
> Adrian Farrel has entered the following ballot position for
> charter-ietf-anima-00-15: No Objection
>
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>
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Thanks for the revisions of this charter since I last reviewed it.
> The shortening of the text is very helpful.
>
> Para 2
> s/build/builds/  or  s/build/will build/
>
> Para 2
> Is the work from the NMRG documented anywhere that can be referenced?
> I see the later reference to draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis, but I
> wonder whether there is anything published as a stable reference to
> the definitions, design goals and architectural model.
>
> Penultimate para
> s/an reference/a reference/
>
>
>


From nobody Thu Oct 30 07:29:12 2014
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Looks good now, thanks!



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Subject: Re: [Anima] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-15: (with BLOCK)
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Hi René,


> Hi Ted:
>
> There is virtually never almost complete self-configuration, even in 
> not professionally managed networks (whatever the term means - see, 
> e.g., 
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/homenet/current/msg04008.html).
Do you have better wording for "professionally managed"?
This is the boundary as explained by Ted:

    The problem is that IoT is not a good class distinction to make, not that IoT is out of scope.   Some IoTs are in scope; others are not.   What distinguishes the two is whether they are top-down ("professionally") managed, or are expected to self-configure without operator intervention.   The latter case is out of scope.

>
> More importantly to charter discussions: none of the "professionally 
> managed"  and strictly "operator base" was brought during the Anima 
> conf calls I have been on. 

> Either I have missed this (please provide a pointers to Anima charter 
> discussions and consensus conclusion there) or there is some backroom 
> discussion where this was discussed. In case of the latter that is 
> fine, but still up to debate in Anima chartering sense.
Note that participants to the ANIMA conf calls were ANIMA people, even 
if there were open to anybody.
When the charter review was introduced, we took into account the 
feedback from the homenet people.
In terms of "backroom discussion", there were none. Ted, Joel, and I had 
a call, during which we tried to clarify the situation/open issues.
Note sure 3 ADs discussing can be classified " backroom discussion".

Regards, Benoit
>
> Best regards, Rene
>
> On 10/30/2014 8:54 AM, Ted Lemon wrote:
>> On Oct 30, 2014, at 8:44 AM, Rene Struik <rstruik.ext@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> It seems to us that "professionally-managed networks" is what ANIMA is
>>> after. And it's potentially a distraction to try to segment the scope
>>> based on enterprise, ISP, homenet, or IoT. What is IoT after all?
>> Right.   The problem is that IoT is not a good class distinction to 
>> make, not that IoT is out of scope.   Some IoTs are in scope; others 
>> are not.   What distinguishes the two is whether they are top-down 
>> ("professionally") managed, or are expected to self-configure without 
>> operator intervention.   The latter case is out of scope.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>
>


--------------060507040508050902090105
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<html>
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      http-equiv="Content-Type">
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  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi Ren&eacute;,<br>
      <br>
      <br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:5452381E.2060904@gmail.com" type="cite">Hi
      Ted:
      <br>
      <br>
      There is virtually never almost complete self-configuration, even
      in not professionally managed networks (whatever the term means -
      see, e.g.,
      <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/homenet/current/msg04008.html">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/homenet/current/msg04008.html</a>).
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    Do you have better wording for "professionally managed"?<br>
    This is the boundary as explained by Ted:<br>
    <blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">The problem is that IoT is not a good class distinction to make, not that IoT is out of scope.   Some IoTs are in scope; others are not.   What distinguishes the two is whether they are top-down ("professionally") managed, or are expected to self-configure without operator intervention.   The latter case is out of scope.</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <blockquote cite="mid:5452381E.2060904@gmail.com" type="cite">
      <br>
      More importantly to charter discussions: none of the
      "professionally managed"&nbsp; and strictly "operator base" was brought
      during the Anima conf calls I have been on. </blockquote>
    <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:5452381E.2060904@gmail.com" type="cite">Either
      I have missed this (please provide a pointers to Anima charter
      discussions and consensus conclusion there) or there is some
      backroom discussion where this was discussed. In case of the
      latter that is fine, but still up to debate in Anima chartering
      sense.
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    Note that participants to the ANIMA conf calls were ANIMA people,
    even if there were open to anybody.<br>
    When the charter review was introduced, we took into account the
    feedback from the homenet people.<br>
    In terms of "backroom discussion", there were none. Ted, Joel, and I
    had a call, during which we tried to clarify the situation/open
    issues.<br>
    Note sure 3 ADs discussing can be classified " backroom discussion".<br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit<br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:5452381E.2060904@gmail.com" type="cite">
      <br>
      Best regards, Rene
      <br>
      <br>
      On 10/30/2014 8:54 AM, Ted Lemon wrote:
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite">On Oct 30, 2014, at 8:44 AM, Rene Struik
        <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rstruik.ext@gmail.com">&lt;rstruik.ext@gmail.com&gt;</a> wrote:
        <br>
        <blockquote type="cite">It seems to us that
          "professionally-managed networks" is what ANIMA is
          <br>
          after. And it's potentially a distraction to try to segment
          the scope
          <br>
          based on enterprise, ISP, homenet, or IoT. What is IoT after
          all?
          <br>
        </blockquote>
        Right.&nbsp;&nbsp; The problem is that IoT is not a good class distinction
        to make, not that IoT is out of scope.&nbsp;&nbsp; Some IoTs are in scope;
        others are not.&nbsp;&nbsp; What distinguishes the two is whether they are
        top-down ("professionally") managed, or are expected to
        self-configure without operator intervention.&nbsp;&nbsp; The latter case
        is out of scope.
        <br>
        <br>
        _______________________________________________
        <br>
        Anima mailing list
        <br>
        <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a>
        <br>
        <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a>
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------060507040508050902090105--


From nobody Thu Oct 30 08:02:40 2014
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm looking forward to seeing the IoT conversation converge ...



From nobody Thu Oct 30 08:11:51 2014
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm sad that two of my comments on the previously reviewed charter were
ignored, especially when Brian said that he was going to make changes:

1st paragraph:

   An autonomic function works in a distributed way across various
   network elements, but allowing central guidance and reporting, and
   co-existence with non-autonomic methods of management.

Do all autonomic functions work distributed? I'm not sure what this
means.

Brian's response: "If they aren't distributed, they just aren't
candidates for protocol work. I think the logic of this sentence needs
adjustment."

9th paragraph:

   Definition of a discovery functionality for autonomic functions

I don't understand what that means. By "functionality" do you mean
protocol?

Brian's response: "Definition of a discovery protocol for autonomic
nodes."



From nobody Thu Oct 30 08:16:39 2014
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On 10/30/14 8:02 AM, Spencer Dawkins wrote:
> Spencer Dawkins has entered the following ballot position for
> charter-ietf-anima-00-17: No Objection
>=20
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this=

> introductory paragraph, however.)
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I'm looking forward to seeing the IoT conversation converge ...

I hope to be retired before then

>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
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From nobody Thu Oct 30 08:58:11 2014
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Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2014 08:57:46 -0700
From: Toerless Eckert <eckert@cisco.com>
To: Ted Lemon <Ted.Lemon@nominum.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-15: (with BLOCK)
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On Thu, Oct 30, 2014 at 09:13:14AM -0400, Ted Lemon wrote:
> That's between you and the ops ADs.   I'm just telling you what we've discussed.   If you want unmanaged ad-hoc configuration, that's already in homenet's charter, so I think it's out of scope for a new working group.

An ad-hoc network for a trade-show, a battlefield, city, factory etc is
in scope for homenet ? Whats exactly the line between homenet and 
manet then ? "Do not move this router from bedroom to kitchen,
it would step on manet's toes" ?

Sorry for the lame joke, but i do not think we can scope WGs reasonably
against others adjacent work by pattern matching words like ad-hoc.

Wrt. to "professionally managed" vs. "fully/semi-autonomic": I think
that are not two sides of a coin, but a continuum. IMHO, we step over
a line when we do somthing that is too experimental into the far
end of that spectrum to achieve successful near/mid-term deployments. 

Let me try to put in my words and explanation of ad-hoc, distinction
to homenet and the impact of "professional" management.

Homenet allows me to throw together routers and get an autonomically 
running network for all attached endpoints. And i thought this was
primarily for networks like you would build them for a private residence
and manage between Mrs Jones and her internet SPs.

For an anima network i throw together routers, L2 switches and other 
network equipment for a factory, city, enterprise, service-provder 
network. I take into account "professional" security/inventory management
aspects and try to get that process as much zero-touch as feasible.

When its done, i do not necessarily want default transparent end-to-end
IP connectivity for all attached devices. Instead, i just want transparent
OAM connectivity for all "professional" operations (ssh/cli...provisioning
tools...SDN controller).  I then want simplification/automation of these
"professional" processes.  And i want indestructible failsafe inband OAM
connectivity whenever the "professional" operations  makes mistakes
with eg: vpn/vrf, routing, security/access and other policies in the
network - and would in a current network disconnect themselves from
those devices they mean to manage. 

Cheers
    Toerless


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Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2014 07:55:52 +1300
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Pete Resnick's No Objection on charter-ietf-anima-00-17: (with COMMENT)
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On 31/10/2014 05:16, Benoit Claise wrote:
> On 30/10/2014 15:49, Pete Resnick wrote:
>> Pete Resnick has entered the following ballot position for
>> charter-ietf-anima-00-17: No Objection
>>
>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
>> introductory paragraph, however.)
>>
>>
>>
>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
>> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> COMMENT:
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> I'm sad that two of my comments on the previously reviewed charter were
>> ignored, especially when Brian said that he was going to make changes:
>>
>> 1st paragraph:
>>
>>     An autonomic function works in a distributed way across various
>>     network elements, but allowing central guidance and reporting, and
>>     co-existence with non-autonomic methods of management.
>>
>> Do all autonomic functions work distributed? I'm not sure what this
>> means.
>>
>> Brian's response: "If they aren't distributed, they just aren't
>> candidates for protocol work. I think the logic of this sentence needs
>> adjustment."
> What is your proposal for this?
> Please send it to everybody in the initial email.

I suggest:

An autonomic function that works in a distributed way across various
network elements is a candidate for protocol design. Such functions
should allow central guidance and reporting, and co-existence with
non-autonomic methods of management.

(Sorry, Pete, your two comments got lost in a rush of other
pre-cutoff issues. I assume Benoit will put both of them in now.)

   Brian

> 
> Regards, Benoit
>>
>> 9th paragraph:
>>
>>     Definition of a discovery functionality for autonomic functions
>>
>> I don't understand what that means. By "functionality" do you mean
>> protocol?
>>
>> Brian's response: "Definition of a discovery protocol for autonomic
>> nodes."
>>
>>
>> .
>>
> 
> 


From nobody Thu Oct 30 12:01:08 2014
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-15: (with BLOCK)
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[apologies for the 4 hr delayed response - client meetings (my day job)]

Hi Benoit:

Unfortunately, I do not have an easy substitute for "professionally 
managed". The term itself is almost meaningless to scope discussions and 
suggests a dichotomy that does not really exist (imho). Please see the 
earlier remarks on how ambiguous this term is, including my reference 
earlier today to, e.g., 
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/homenet/current/msg04008.html.

Network management should not be type cast and put into squares. In this 
respect, I think Toerless Eckert worded this as well in his email this 
morning, October 30, 2014, see 
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00552.html.

The granularity of network management is more a continuum and should not 
be something type-cast according to key words (that is simply 
territorial infighting and would seem to be detrimental to trying to 
come up with a network management architecture that would unite an 
entire spectrum). I expect the main differences (at least from a 
security perspective) between what some present as "professional" vs. 
"nonprofessional" to be in terms of security policy initialization and 
maintenance, not so much protocol algorithmic. Hence, my perspective 
that this dichotomy is false (at least with security glasses on [I see 
networks as security engines]).

I think this term has no place in the charter, nor any other term that 
seems to suggest an artificial problem partitioning.

Last point: indeed, the Anima calls were by definition participated in 
by people interested in the topic area. Here, to my knowledge, this 
artificial dichotomy did not come up.

> More importantly to charter discussions: none of the "professionally 
> managed"  and strictly "operator base" was brought during the Anima 
> conf calls I have been on. Either I have missed this (please provide a 
> pointers to Anima charter discussions and consensus conclusion there) 
> or there is some backroom discussion where this was discussed.

Best regards, Rene

On 10/30/2014 10:48 AM, Benoit Claise wrote:
> Hi René,
>
>
>> Hi Ted:
>>
>> There is virtually never almost complete self-configuration, even in 
>> not professionally managed networks (whatever the term means - see, 
>> e.g., 
>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/homenet/current/msg04008.html).
> Do you have better wording for "professionally managed"?
> This is the boundary as explained by Ted:
>
>     The problem is that IoT is not a good class distinction to make, not that IoT is out of scope.   Some IoTs are in scope; others are not.   What distinguishes the two is whether they are top-down ("professionally") managed, or are expected to self-configure without operator intervention.   The latter case is out of scope.
>
>>
>> More importantly to charter discussions: none of the "professionally 
>> managed"  and strictly "operator base" was brought during the Anima 
>> conf calls I have been on. 
>
>> Either I have missed this (please provide a pointers to Anima charter 
>> discussions and consensus conclusion there) or there is some backroom 
>> discussion where this was discussed. In case of the latter that is 
>> fine, but still up to debate in Anima chartering sense.
> Note that participants to the ANIMA conf calls were ANIMA people, even 
> if there were open to anybody.
> When the charter review was introduced, we took into account the 
> feedback from the homenet people.
> In terms of "backroom discussion", there were none. Ted, Joel, and I 
> had a call, during which we tried to clarify the situation/open issues.
> Note sure 3 ADs discussing can be classified " backroom discussion".
>
> Regards, Benoit
>>
>> Best regards, Rene
>>
>> On 10/30/2014 8:54 AM, Ted Lemon wrote:
>>> On Oct 30, 2014, at 8:44 AM, Rene Struik <rstruik.ext@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> It seems to us that "professionally-managed networks" is what ANIMA is
>>>> after. And it's potentially a distraction to try to segment the scope
>>>> based on enterprise, ISP, homenet, or IoT. What is IoT after all?
>>> Right.   The problem is that IoT is not a good class distinction to 
>>> make, not that IoT is out of scope.   Some IoTs are in scope; others 
>>> are not.   What distinguishes the two is whether they are top-down 
>>> ("professionally") managed, or are expected to self-configure 
>>> without operator intervention. The latter case is out of scope.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Anima mailing list
>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>
>>
>


-- 
email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">[apologies for the 4 hr delayed
      response - client meetings (my day job)]<br>
      <br>
      Hi Benoit:<br>
      <br>
      Unfortunately, I do not have an easy substitute for
      "professionally managed". The term itself is almost meaningless to
      scope discussions and suggests a dichotomy that does not really
      exist (imho). Please see the earlier remarks on how ambiguous this
      term is, including my reference earlier today to, e.g., 
      <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/homenet/current/msg04008.html">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/homenet/current/msg04008.html</a>.
      <br>
      <br>
      Network management should not be type cast and put into squares.
      In this respect, I think Toerless Eckert worded this as well in
      his email this morning, October 30, 2014, see
      <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00552.html">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00552.html</a>.
      <br>
      <br>
      The granularity of network management is more a continuum and
      should not be something type-cast according to key words (that is
      simply territorial infighting and would seem to be detrimental to
      trying to come up with a network management architecture that
      would unite an entire spectrum). I expect the main differences (at
      least from a security perspective) between what some present as
      "professional" vs. "nonprofessional" to be in terms of security
      policy initialization and maintenance, not so much protocol
      algorithmic. Hence, my perspective that this dichotomy is false
      (at least with security glasses on [I see networks as security
      engines]).<br>
      <br>
      I think this term has no place in the charter, nor any other term
      that seems to suggest an artificial problem partitioning. <br>
      <br>
      Last point: indeed, the Anima calls were by definition
      participated in by people interested in the topic area. Here, to
      my knowledge, this artificial dichotomy did not come up.<br>
      <br>
      <blockquote cite="mid:5452381E.2060904@gmail.com" type="cite">More
        importantly to charter discussions: none of the "professionally
        managed"  and strictly "operator base" was brought during the
        Anima conf calls I have been on. Either I have missed this
        (please provide a pointers to Anima charter discussions and
        consensus conclusion there) or there is some backroom discussion
        where this was discussed.</blockquote>
      <br>
      Best regards, Rene <br>
      <br>
      On 10/30/2014 10:48 AM, Benoit Claise wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:54524FDB.9080007@cisco.com" type="cite">
      <meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
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      <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi René,<br>
        <br>
        <br>
      </div>
      <blockquote cite="mid:5452381E.2060904@gmail.com" type="cite">Hi
        Ted: <br>
        <br>
        There is virtually never almost complete self-configuration,
        even in not professionally managed networks (whatever the term
        means - see, e.g., <a moz-do-not-send="true"
          class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/homenet/current/msg04008.html">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/homenet/current/msg04008.html</a>).

        <br>
      </blockquote>
      Do you have better wording for "professionally managed"?<br>
      This is the boundary as explained by Ted:<br>
      <blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">The problem is that IoT is not a good class distinction to make, not that IoT is out of scope.   Some IoTs are in scope; others are not.   What distinguishes the two is whether they are top-down ("professionally") managed, or are expected to self-configure without operator intervention.   The latter case is out of scope.</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <blockquote cite="mid:5452381E.2060904@gmail.com" type="cite"> <br>
        More importantly to charter discussions: none of the
        "professionally managed"  and strictly "operator base" was
        brought during the Anima conf calls I have been on. </blockquote>
      <br>
      <blockquote cite="mid:5452381E.2060904@gmail.com" type="cite">Either

        I have missed this (please provide a pointers to Anima charter
        discussions and consensus conclusion there) or there is some
        backroom discussion where this was discussed. In case of the
        latter that is fine, but still up to debate in Anima chartering
        sense. <br>
      </blockquote>
      Note that participants to the ANIMA conf calls were ANIMA people,
      even if there were open to anybody.<br>
      When the charter review was introduced, we took into account the
      feedback from the homenet people.<br>
      In terms of "backroom discussion", there were none. Ted, Joel, and
      I had a call, during which we tried to clarify the situation/open
      issues.<br>
      Note sure 3 ADs discussing can be classified " backroom
      discussion".<br>
      <br>
      Regards, Benoit<br>
      <blockquote cite="mid:5452381E.2060904@gmail.com" type="cite"> <br>
        Best regards, Rene <br>
        <br>
        On 10/30/2014 8:54 AM, Ted Lemon wrote: <br>
        <blockquote type="cite">On Oct 30, 2014, at 8:44 AM, Rene Struik
          <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
            href="mailto:rstruik.ext@gmail.com">&lt;rstruik.ext@gmail.com&gt;</a>
          wrote: <br>
          <blockquote type="cite">It seems to us that
            "professionally-managed networks" is what ANIMA is <br>
            after. And it's potentially a distraction to try to segment
            the scope <br>
            based on enterprise, ISP, homenet, or IoT. What is IoT after
            all? <br>
          </blockquote>
          Right.   The problem is that IoT is not a good class
          distinction to make, not that IoT is out of scope.   Some IoTs
          are in scope; others are not.   What distinguishes the two is
          whether they are top-down ("professionally") managed, or are
          expected to self-configure without operator intervention.  
          The latter case is out of scope. <br>
          <br>
          _______________________________________________ <br>
          Anima mailing list <br>
          <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
            href="mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a> <br>
          <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
            href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a>
          <br>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rstruik.ext@gmail.com">rstruik.ext@gmail.com</a> | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 690-7363</pre>
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From nobody Thu Oct 30 12:23:45 2014
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Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2014 08:23:45 +1300
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Homogeneous vs. heterogeneous trust domains (Re: What elements of IETF ANIMA can be used for I2NSF?)
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On 31/10/2014 02:47, Michael Richardson wrote:
> Markus Stenberg <markus.stenberg@iki.fi> wrote:
> 
>     > On 29.10.2014, at 4.47, Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com> wrote:
>     >>> I claim that there is doesn't matter where the initial imprinting occurs;
> 
>     randy> Perhaps I'm being overly literal, but aren't there situations
>     randy> where physical location might actually matter, as in setting
>     randy> DVD region codes?
> 
>     markus> I agree with mcr.
> 
> I think that Markus went into some DVD specific thing without answering the
> aim of the question.
> 
> I don't think that the physical location ought to matter at all; what I think
> matters is that the some organizations need autonomic mechanisms, but do not
> wish to do this "in the field", while other organizations have the opposite
> requirement.

Right (after scanning your examples). So let me ask a more specific
question: look at draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures and
draft-ietf-netconf-zerotouch and opine whether either or both of
them is doing what we need. Or to put it another way, what do we need
to define in a generic way for all deployments, and what has to be
defined for specific scenarios?

   Brian

> 
> Let me give two examples.  The first is made up (i.e. I have no specific
> knowledge of it), while the second is one that I experience regularly.
> 
> 1) a military and/or aid organization (think Medecin sans Frontier) receives
>    a stack of equipment to their warehouse in New Jersey.  Let's they are
>    setting up for a "MASH"-like installation.  They uncrate all the equipment,
>    and plan to put 3x "typewriters", 1x microphone, 10x
>    top-of-the-poll-loud-speaker, 2x mess-hall cash registers, 10x ventilators,
>    2x cardiac machines.. (just imaging what a 2015-edition of "MASH 4077" might have).
>    into each shipping container.
>    In each case, they will power up the machines, in the warehouse, and some
>    validation system will run once the machines are seen, and it will imprint
>    the machines with the MSF identity.  The machines go *BACK* into their
>    shipping boxes, and are distributed (mostly randomly) into shipping
>    containers, one container per installation.
>    {okay, today, we might rack mount it into the container and leave them
>    in the container, but let's ignore that bit of modern lego work}
> 
>    The equipment might sit in the container for months to *decades* before
>    it is actually deployed.  If there are any online processes that need to
>    occur for the imprinting to occr, they occur in New Jersey where there is
>    reliable power and Internet, not in Sierra Leone.
> 
>    If the equipment is stolen or redirected, etc. it likely won't trust any
>    of the "hostile" networking equipment, and it won't be autonomic with it.
>    This is good and intended.
> 
> 2) a vendor (V) of security appliances buys 1U systems (Z) from vendor X.  Vendor X
>    operates worldwide, and can provide fullfilment worldwide from local
>    inventory to customer (C).
> 
>    Due to time, cost and excise issues, it is impractical to ship units
>    from vendor X to V's office for installation and configuration.  In some
>    cases mutually exclusive frequency assignments for things like wireless
>    might even make it illegal to operate Z in V's country, and illegal for
>    equipment in V's country to operate in C's country!
>    (in the ways of 2mb/s 802.11 [no-letter] this was true)
> 
>    So the equipment is shipped by X to C, and C physically installs it in a
>    new office.  Equipment Z has core routing functions. It would be ideal if
>    equipment Z could recognize the network connections that it has, say who
>    it is on them.  The autonomic process would then imprint the system.
>    If system Z is being sold as a service, it might be that it gets imprinted
>    to V.  It might get imprinted to C.  Or it might be initially imprinted to
>    V, installed, and then ownership transfered to C.
>    The final location here might matter; it matters that it's been installed
>    at the San Jose office rather than in the New York office.
> 
>    [Today, I, as vendor V, must instruct customer C, on connecting up the
>    IPMI/ILO/iDrac, and opening a port 443, and if it's actually core routing
>    equipment, we are probably screwed anyway]
> 
> --
> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
>  -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] ANIMA scope + homenet interaction + charter v15
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On 30/10/2014 22:08, Markus Stenberg wrote:
> On 28.10.2014, at 22.13, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:
>> 1. scope
>> OLD:     The ANIMA working group will initially focus on enterprise, I=
SP networks and IoT.
>> NEW:    The ANIMA working group focuses on professionally-managed netw=
orks.
>=20
> +1. This is what I was trying to get earlier (but apparently just dropp=
ing IoT did not describe it fully due to potentially managed IoT networks=
 too; I am too stuck in my home IoT rut I guess).
>=20
>> Does it sound about right?
>> 2. Overlap with HOMENET
>> This distinction in point 1 might help regarding the potential overlap=
 of the solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management.
>> Btw, the new charter has been adapted:
>> OLD:  A solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management within a netwo=
rk.
>> NEW: the solution for distributed IPv6 prefix management within a larg=
e-scale network
>=20
> I would personally rather drop prefix management. At least, the current=
 proposed solution is DHCPv6 PD plus lot of marketing plus one extra thin=
g (role) minus tons of existing functionality. I would rather stick the r=
ole into PD, than reinvent the protocol.
>=20
> If there is not something more novel there (that is, not hierarchical P=
D in disguise), I do not see the point.

It is specifically not bound to be hierarchical. The idea is that peer de=
vices
can provide resource (IPv6 prefixes) to each other when one of them runs =
low,
and that is a specific use case for carriers. Perhaps it's badly explaine=
d.
It was chosen explicitly as a very simple but real use case. (There is a
more complex case which is sharing IPv4 resources between AFTRs but we
took that out to keep things simple.)

I don't understand what you mean about marketing.

    Brian

>> Also, The HOMENET collaboration has been stressed in the charter.
>>
>> 3. Others
>> I believe I took care of the others changes proposed on the mailing. I=
f this is not the case, let me know.
>> At this point in time, please provide concrete change to the charter t=
ext if some issues persist.
>> Charter v15 has just been posted, and you can review the detailed chan=
ges at https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf=
=2Eorg%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-14.txt&difftype=3D-=
-html&submit=3DGo!&url2=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fchar=
ter-ietf-anima%2Fwithmilestones-00-15.txt
>=20
> I think it is mostly fine, although the use of term =E2=80=98autonomous=
=E2=80=99 for essentially (on high level) managed devices that perform so=
me low-level autonomic functions sounds still strange to me. I guess I co=
uld live with it though.
>=20
> Cheers,
>=20
> -Markus
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> homenet mailing list
> homenet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet
>=20


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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] ANIMA scope + homenet interaction + charter v15
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Rene,


On 30/10/2014 16:50, Rene Struik wrote:
> Hi Brian:
> 
> It is very puzzling to me to see essential deployments that would be a
> test case on viability of the concept of semi-automatic management (in
> casu: constrained networks and devices) being removed from the charter.
> I have not seen any technical justification for ruling this out of order
> (nor do I know who decides on this - consensus?).

Well, it's technically the IESG that charters WGs but they do always
look for rough consensus. However, I don't believe the new wording excludes
IOT, it simply doesn't mention it.

> If one emphasizes so much the "professionally managed" aspect, this
> seems to suggest that whatever "solution" Anima (or, perhaps, simply the
> co-authors of the three anima drafts mentioned in the draft charter?)
> have in mind may not meet or closely approximate the whole idea of
> "autonous" operation (at least, as I understand this after reading all
> drafts referred to in the draft charter and producing 15 pages of
> comments on this).
> 
> I, for one, think we can minimize these differences and define an
> architecture and a set of protocols that mostly only differ in policy
> and configuration settings for "professionally managed" and "highly
> constrained devices and networks". I think I have made this point in my
> extensive comments.

I would be happy with that result. I am interpreting "professionally
managed" very liberally, but it does seem to me that things like
building services networks are both highly constrained and professionally
managed.

> I am happy to make this concrete once the group meets during IETF-91,
> but certainly already declaring things out of order without accompanying
> technical discussion and analysis, effectively stymies this.
> 
> During IETF-91, I think we need to spend much more time on discussing
> draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis and
> draft-irtf-nmrg-autonomic-network-definitions-04, 

Unfortunately the NMRG, which "owns" those documents, has chosen
not to meet at the IETF site. Your comments were closely studied
during the most recent revision of both drafts. The result is of course
a compromise between the authors' views and yours.

   Brian


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Subject: Re: [Anima] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-15: (with BLOCK)
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On 31/10/2014 02:13, Ted Lemon wrote:
> On Oct 30, 2014, at 9:07 AM, Rene Struik <rstruik.ext@gmail.com> wrote:
>> More importantly to charter discussions: none of the "professionally managed"  and strictly "operator base" was brought during the Anima conf calls I have been on. Either I have missed this (please provide a pointers to Anima charter discussions and consensus conclusion there) or there is some backroom discussion where this was discussed. In case of the latter that is fine, but still up to debate in Anima chartering sense.
> 
> That's between you and the ops ADs.   I'm just telling you what we've discussed.   If you want unmanaged ad-hoc configuration, that's already in homenet's charter, so I think it's out of scope for a new working group.

In my mind it was always implicit in the discussions that we were
going first for networks where human-based OPEX was a major concern.
I can well believe that this was not obvious in the charter text
until recently.

Purely personally, I don't want to produce solution elements that
cannot be applied in networks that don't fit that profile, whether
they are IOT or homenet or whatever. But (getting back to some
earlier discussion) we must not attempt to boil the ocean in one go,
so the initial WG charter scope has to be modest.

    Brian


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Subject: Re: [Anima] Stephen Farrell's No Objection on charter-ietf-anima-00-15: (with COMMENT)
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On 31/10/2014 02:59, Stephen Farrell wrote:
...
> I support Ted's block (I think:-).  I suspect that this will be sorted
> out ok by the WG if it can be, but I'd also like some better clarity
> on how the security bootstrapping here and in homenet are
> related/differ.

IMHO understanding that (and where draft-ietf-netconf-zerotouch
fits in) is part of the first order of business of the WG. I don't
think we can resolve it without more technical analysis.

    Brian


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On 31/10/14 00:02, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> On 31/10/2014 02:59, Stephen Farrell wrote:
> ...
>> I support Ted's block (I think:-).  I suspect that this will be sorted
>> out ok by the WG if it can be, but I'd also like some better clarity
>> on how the security bootstrapping here and in homenet are
>> related/differ.
> 
> IMHO understanding that (and where draft-ietf-netconf-zerotouch
> fits in) is part of the first order of business of the WG. I don't
> think we can resolve it without more technical analysis.

Agreed. My remaining, but for-now-ignorable concern relates to
the current wording which sort-of tells anima to re-use homenet
work in this space - I think it's likely different solutions
for security bootstrapping will be needed and so we ought not end
up trying to stop work on one such just because another exists,
if the use-cases/environments are in reality sufficiently
different. I'll try work with Benoit to suggest some better words
but do agree that what's really needed is the detailed analysis
which needs both WGs doing work and isn't a thing to try fix in
either charter.

S.


> 
>     Brian
> 


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Subject: Re: [Anima] Ted Lemon's Block on charter-ietf-anima-00-15: (with BLOCK)
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Dear Ted, all,


On 30/10/2014 02:46, Ted Lemon wrote:
> OK, that helps.   I didn't really get that from the text, though.   How about:
>
>   This WG will develop a system of autonomic functions that carry
>   out the intentions of the network operator without the need for detailed
>   low-level management of individual devices.   This will be done by providing
>   a secure closed-loop interaction mechanism whereby network elements
>   cooperate directly to satisfy management intent.
>
>   The working group will develop a control paradigm where network
>   processes coordinate their decisions and automatically translate
>   them into local actions, based on various sources of information
>   including operator-supplied configuration information and protocol
>   information bases.
>
> But what are protocol information bases?   do you mean MIBs and YANG schemas?

e.g. LSDB for OSPF.
the protocol information bases are the set of (internal) information 
used by the protocols for their functioning -by contrast to the external 
information bases/sources that can be used to improve/augment their 
capabilities e.g. using traffic measurements (TE routing)...
This latter part on external information was "dropped" from the charter 
text but was useful to explain the "levels" of autonomic functions.

Hope it helps.
Best regards, Laurent.


>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>

-- 

Bien cordialement, Best regards,

*Laurent Ciavaglia*

Advanced Internet Research

Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

phone: +33 160 402 636

email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 
<mailto:laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>

linkedin: laurentciavaglia <http://fr.linkedin.com/in/laurentciavaglia/>

address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France


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    <font face="Courier New">Dear Ted, all,<br>
      <br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 30/10/2014 02:46, Ted Lemon wrote:
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:62558186-114B-43DD-AFBF-29717C804D68@nominum.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">
OK, that helps.   I didn't really get that from the text, though.   How about:

 This WG will develop a system of autonomic functions that carry
 out the intentions of the network operator without the need for detailed
 low-level management of individual devices.   This will be done by providing
 a secure closed-loop interaction mechanism whereby network elements
 cooperate directly to satisfy management intent.

 The working group will develop a control paradigm where network
 processes coordinate their decisions and automatically translate
 them into local actions, based on various sources of information
 including operator-supplied configuration information and protocol
 information bases.

But what are protocol information bases?   do you mean MIBs and YANG schemas?</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    e.g. LSDB for OSPF.<br>
    the protocol information bases are the set of (internal) information
    used by the protocols for their functioning -by contrast to the
    external information bases/sources that can be used to
    improve/augment their capabilities e.g. using traffic measurements
    (TE routing)...<br>
    This latter part on external information was "dropped" from the
    charter text but was useful to explain the "levels" of autonomic
    functions.<br>
    <br>
    Hope it helps.<br>
    Best regards, Laurent.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:62558186-114B-43DD-AFBF-29717C804D68@nominum.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">

_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] ANIMA scope + homenet interaction + charter v15
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On Oct 31, 2014, at 1:53 AM, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com> wrote:
> a) the requesting router knows the prefix length it should request;

It should always request a single /64.


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From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Pete Resnick's No Objection on charter-ietf-anima-00-17: (with COMMENT)
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Pete,
>
> 9th paragraph:
>
>     Definition of a discovery functionality for autonomic functions
>
> I don't understand what that means. By "functionality" do you mean
> protocol?
>
> Brian's response: "Definition of a discovery protocol for autonomic
> nodes."
After some more investigation, this was discussed in 
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00454.html,

    1) the choice of the term "functionality" instead of "protocol" was
    used on purpose as to avoid choosing _a priori_ the (de)composition
    in protocol(s). i.e. one _a posteriori_ / informed decision will be
    how to "group" the different functionality in one or more protocols
    (or extension of existing ones).

I thought that Laurent had a valid argument.

Regards, Benoit

>
>
> .
>


--------------040202010805010008000501
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<html>
  <head>
    <meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Pete,<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:20141030144919.7222.58863.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">

9th paragraph:

   Definition of a discovery functionality for autonomic functions

I don't understand what that means. By "functionality" do you mean
protocol?

Brian's response: "Definition of a discovery protocol for autonomic
nodes."</pre>
    </blockquote>
    After some more investigation, this was discussed in
    <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00454.html">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00454.html</a>,<br>
    <blockquote><font color="#333333">1) the choice of the term
        "functionality" instead of "protocol" was used on purpose as to
        avoid choosing <u>a priori</u> the (de)composition in
        protocol(s). i.e. one <u>a posteriori</u> / informed decision
        will be how to "group" the different functionality in one or
        more protocols (or extension of existing ones).</font></blockquote>
    I thought that Laurent had a valid argument.<br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:20141030144919.7222.58863.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">


.

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------040202010805010008000501--


From nobody Fri Oct 31 05:18:21 2014
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Pete Resnick's No Objection on charter-ietf-anima-00-17: (with COMMENT)
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On 30/10/2014 19:55, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> On 31/10/2014 05:16, Benoit Claise wrote:
>> On 30/10/2014 15:49, Pete Resnick wrote:
>>> Pete Resnick has entered the following ballot position for
>>> charter-ietf-anima-00-17: No Objection
>>>
>>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
>>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
>>> introductory paragraph, however.)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
>>> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> COMMENT:
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> I'm sad that two of my comments on the previously reviewed charter were
>>> ignored, especially when Brian said that he was going to make changes:
>>>
>>> 1st paragraph:
>>>
>>>      An autonomic function works in a distributed way across various
>>>      network elements, but allowing central guidance and reporting, and
>>>      co-existence with non-autonomic methods of management.
>>>
>>> Do all autonomic functions work distributed? I'm not sure what this
>>> means.
>>>
>>> Brian's response: "If they aren't distributed, they just aren't
>>> candidates for protocol work. I think the logic of this sentence needs
>>> adjustment."
>> What is your proposal for this?
>> Please send it to everybody in the initial email.
> I suggest:
>
> An autonomic function that works in a distributed way across various
> network elements is a candidate for protocol design. Such functions
> should allow central guidance and reporting, and co-existence with
> non-autonomic methods of management.
Introduced in the latest charter version.

Regards, Benoit
>
> (Sorry, Pete, your two comments got lost in a rush of other
> pre-cutoff issues. I assume Benoit will put both of them in now.)
>
>     Brian
>
>> Regards, Benoit
>>> 9th paragraph:
>>>
>>>      Definition of a discovery functionality for autonomic functions
>>>
>>> I don't understand what that means. By "functionality" do you mean
>>> protocol?
>>>
>>> Brian's response: "Definition of a discovery protocol for autonomic
>>> nodes."
>>>
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>>
> .
>


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From: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] [homenet] ANIMA scope + homenet interaction + charter v15
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Stephen Farrell's No Objection on charter-ietf-anima-00-15: (with COMMENT)
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On 31/10/2014 03:14, Stephen Farrell wrote:
>
> On 31/10/14 00:02, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>> On 31/10/2014 02:59, Stephen Farrell wrote:
>> ...
>>> I support Ted's block (I think:-).  I suspect that this will be sorted
>>> out ok by the WG if it can be, but I'd also like some better clarity
>>> on how the security bootstrapping here and in homenet are
>>> related/differ.
>> IMHO understanding that (and where draft-ietf-netconf-zerotouch
>> fits in) is part of the first order of business of the WG. I don't
>> think we can resolve it without more technical analysis.
> Agreed. My remaining, but for-now-ignorable concern relates to
> the current wording which sort-of tells anima to re-use homenet
> work in this space - I think it's likely different solutions
> for security bootstrapping will be needed and so we ought not end
> up trying to stop work on one such just because another exists,
> if the use-cases/environments are in reality sufficiently
> different. I'll try work with Benoit to suggest some better words
> but do agree that what's really needed is the detailed analysis
> which needs both WGs doing work and isn't a thing to try fix in
> either charter.
Here is what Stephen and I came up with:

OLD:

Where suitable protocols, models or methods exist (for example, in the HOMENET
WG), they will be preferred over creating new ones.

NEW:

ANIMA and HOMENET will need to co-ordinate to ensure that the commonalities and differences in solutions are
properly taken into account.Where suitable protocols, models or methods exist, they will be preferred over creating new ones.

This is now in the charter v19

Regards, Benoit


>
> S.
>
>
>>      Brian
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>


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<html>
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      http-equiv="Content-Type">
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  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 31/10/2014 03:14, Stephen Farrell
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:5452F091.3050503@cs.tcd.ie" type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">

On 31/10/14 00:02, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">On 31/10/2014 02:59, Stephen Farrell wrote:
...
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">I support Ted's block (I think:-).  I suspect that this will be sorted
out ok by the WG if it can be, but I'd also like some better clarity
on how the security bootstrapping here and in homenet are
related/differ.
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">
IMHO understanding that (and where draft-ietf-netconf-zerotouch
fits in) is part of the first order of business of the WG. I don't
think we can resolve it without more technical analysis.
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
Agreed. My remaining, but for-now-ignorable concern relates to
the current wording which sort-of tells anima to re-use homenet
work in this space - I think it's likely different solutions
for security bootstrapping will be needed and so we ought not end
up trying to stop work on one such just because another exists,
if the use-cases/environments are in reality sufficiently
different. I'll try work with Benoit to suggest some better words
but do agree that what's really needed is the detailed analysis
which needs both WGs doing work and isn't a thing to try fix in
either charter.</pre>
    </blockquote>
    Here is what Stephen and I came up with:<br>
    <br>
    OLD:<br>
    <pre>Where suitable protocols, models or methods exist (for example, in the HOMENET
WG), they will be preferred over creating new ones.</pre>
    NEW:<br>
    <pre><font size="3"><font color="#000000">ANIMA and HOMENET will need to co-ordinate to ensure that the commonalities and differences in solutions are 
properly taken into account. </font></font>Where suitable protocols, models or methods exist, they will be preferred over creating new ones.
</pre>
    This is now in the charter v19<br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:5452F091.3050503@cs.tcd.ie" type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">

S.


</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">
    Brian

</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a>

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------080405010502090604000805--


From nobody Fri Oct 31 06:58:02 2014
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Stephen Farrell's No Objection on charter-ietf-anima-00-15: (with COMMENT)
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On 31/10/14 13:57, Benoit Claise wrote:
> On 31/10/2014 03:14, Stephen Farrell wrote:
>>
>> On 31/10/14 00:02, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>>> On 31/10/2014 02:59, Stephen Farrell wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> I support Ted's block (I think:-).  I suspect that this will be sorted
>>>> out ok by the WG if it can be, but I'd also like some better clarity
>>>> on how the security bootstrapping here and in homenet are
>>>> related/differ.
>>> IMHO understanding that (and where draft-ietf-netconf-zerotouch
>>> fits in) is part of the first order of business of the WG. I don't
>>> think we can resolve it without more technical analysis.
>> Agreed. My remaining, but for-now-ignorable concern relates to
>> the current wording which sort-of tells anima to re-use homenet
>> work in this space - I think it's likely different solutions
>> for security bootstrapping will be needed and so we ought not end
>> up trying to stop work on one such just because another exists,
>> if the use-cases/environments are in reality sufficiently
>> different. I'll try work with Benoit to suggest some better words
>> but do agree that what's really needed is the detailed analysis
>> which needs both WGs doing work and isn't a thing to try fix in
>> either charter.
> Here is what Stephen and I came up with:
> 
> OLD:
> 
> Where suitable protocols, models or methods exist (for example, in the
> HOMENET
> WG), they will be preferred over creating new ones.
> 
> NEW:
> 
> ANIMA and HOMENET will need to co-ordinate to ensure that the
> commonalities and differences in solutions are
> properly taken into account.Where suitable protocols, models or methods
> exist, they will be preferred over creating new ones.
> 
> This is now in the charter v19

Thanks, looks fine to me,
S.

> 
> Regards, Benoit
> 
> 
>>
>> S.
>>
>>
>>>      Brian
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>
> 
> 


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Subject: Re: [Anima] Summary status of ANIMA drafts submission
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Dear draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures authors,
>>> We are missed one essential component draft that was agreed in the initial
>>> plan:
>>>
>>> draft-X-anima-trust-bootstrap (Who is responsible?). If people are still
>>> working on it, it may be submitted after the online draft submission tool
>>> reopen at the night of Oct. 8.
>> This is draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures. It didn't get
>> re-submitted with "anima" in the title, but this is the draft.
> Hi, Michael,
>
> Even the content remains unchanged, re-submitted with "anima" in the title would be helpful. For now, this draft does not appear on the WG pages, link below, which is auto generated based on the document naming rules.
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/anima/documents/
>
> Therefore, it is highly possible many people who are interested in ANIMA would miss this draft.
>
> So, please do re-submit this draft with "anima" when the online draft submission tool reopen at the night of Nov. 9th. We will have the meeting on the Monday, Nov. 10th.
Even better. Rename your draft to 
draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures, send it now to 
internet-drafts@ietf.org, and cc me.
 From there, I will approve the post.

Regards, Benoit
>
> Best regards,
>
> Sheng
>
>> Michael
>>
>>> More contributions and drafts are always welcome.
>>>
>>> The status of the ANIMA meeting in the coming IETF91 will only be decided
>>> at this week's IESG meeting and the chairs are not yet known. Therefore,
>> the
>>> agenda process is running late.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Sheng
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Anima mailing list
>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>


From nobody Fri Oct 31 07:34:09 2014
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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] ANIMA scope + homenet interaction + charter v15
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On Oct 31, 2014, at 8:54 AM, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com> wrote:
> Are you talking about assigning prefix for homenet? I thought we were =
talking about auto prefix management in a large network, which is ANIMA =
use case.

In either case, it's important to make the distinction between prefix =
assignment and prefix delegation.   In an autonomous network, I don't =
think it's practical to do hierarchical prefix delegation.   That has =
the unfortunate consequence that there can't be any routing aggregation. =
  The delegating router can of course _try_ to keep the topology clean, =
but routing has to work even if it fails.

That being the case, every delegation _request_ should be for a /64, =
because every delegation request should be a request for a /64 to =
configure on an interface of a router.   Whether or not aggregation =
occurs is up to whichever device is the delegating router.   Having a =
distributed delegation framework is probably a good idea, but a =
hierarchical distribution won't work, so the idea that a router could =
request prefixes to be delegated and then re-delegate some of those =
prefixes is, IMHO, not going to work.


From nobody Fri Oct 31 07:56:06 2014
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From: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] [homenet] ANIMA scope + homenet interaction + charter v15
Thread-Index: AQHP9Re8b4wGgKR4VUqVVzrN4+BChZxKST3w
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2014 14:55:20 +0000
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References: <544FF8FC.5090103@cisco.com> <95338658-B4F2-4634-AC7B-7B893C4DEF2E@iki.fi> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF6C46E@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <DEB8F897-3CED-4C59-BEBF-BF64096282F2@fugue.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AF6C7AE@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com>, <8490A544-45A9-45D2-9C98-D3CBEB28651D@fugue.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] ANIMA scope + homenet interaction + charter v15
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Hi, Ted,

I now understand your point. Your arguments do make sense. The current gene=
ral mechanism are too general to work for the use case of hierarchical pref=
ix delegation. But if we add hierarchical topology and no bypass requests a=
s constraint conditions, we may be able to make hierarchical prefix delegat=
ion work.

Best regards,

Sheng
________________________________________
From: Ted Lemon [mellon@fugue.com]
Sent: 31 October 2014 22:34
To: Sheng Jiang
Cc: Benoit Claise; homenet@ietf.org; Markus Stenberg; anima@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] ANIMA scope + homenet interaction + charter =
v15

On Oct 31, 2014, at 8:54 AM, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com> wrote:
> Are you talking about assigning prefix for homenet? I thought we were tal=
king about auto prefix management in a large network, which is ANIMA use ca=
se.

In either case, it's important to make the distinction between prefix assig=
nment and prefix delegation.   In an autonomous network, I don't think it's=
 practical to do hierarchical prefix delegation.   That has the unfortunate=
 consequence that there can't be any routing aggregation.   The delegating =
router can of course _try_ to keep the topology clean, but routing has to w=
ork even if it fails.

That being the case, every delegation _request_ should be for a /64, becaus=
e every delegation request should be a request for a /64 to configure on an=
 interface of a router.   Whether or not aggregation occurs is up to whiche=
ver device is the delegating router.   Having a distributed delegation fram=
ework is probably a good idea, but a hierarchical distribution won't work, =
so the idea that a router could request prefixes to be delegated and then r=
e-delegate some of those prefixes is, IMHO, not going to work.=


From nobody Fri Oct 31 08:04:15 2014
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Subject: [Anima] ANIMA status afer the IESG telechat
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Dear all,

[sorry for the double post, the last one from me hopefully]

With the latest charter v19 
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/>, we have 
addressed all the IESG issues discussed during the telechat yesterday.

There is only one BLOCK left, by Joel. This is actually a placeholder.
The charter improved a lot in the last couple of days.
Joel, and I want to give a little bit of extra time to the (HOMENET) 
community to react.
Note: only new issues will be taken into account.

Without any bad reaction, this WG will chartered Monday evening.

Regards, Joel, and Benoit







--------------090002020609020306090704
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<html>
  <head>

    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    Dear all,<br>
    <br>
    [sorry for the double post, the last one from me hopefully]<br>
    <br>
    <a href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-anima/">With
      the latest charter v19</a>, we have addressed all the IESG issues
    discussed during the telechat yesterday.<br>
    <br>
    There is only one BLOCK left, by Joel. This is actually a
    placeholder. <br>
    The charter improved a lot in the last couple of days.<br>
    Joel, and I want to give a little bit of extra time to the (HOMENET)
    community to react.<br>
    Note: only new issues will be taken into account.<br>
    <br>
    Without any bad reaction, this WG will chartered Monday evening.<br>
    <br>
    Regards, Joel, and Benoit<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------090002020609020306090704--


From nobody Fri Oct 31 08:47:57 2014
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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] ANIMA scope + homenet interaction + charter v15
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On Oct 31, 2014, at 10:55 AM, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com> wrote:
> The current general mechanism are too general to work for the use case =
of hierarchical prefix delegation. But if we add hierarchical topology =
and no bypass requests as constraint conditions, we may be able to make =
hierarchical prefix delegation work.

No, that is not the point I am making.   The point I am making is that =
hierarchical delegation simply won't work, no matter what mechanism you =
put in place to do it, because the network has to be able to grow =
incrementally.   With that as a base assumption, you cannot predict =
where the network will grow, so you don't know how to construct the =
hierarchy.   Once the hierarchy is constructed, you would have to =
renumber on a regular basis to make hierarchical delegation work.   I =
think it is preferable to simply allow for a complete routing table, and =
then try as best as possible to make routing hierarchical, without =
demanding perfection.


From nobody Fri Oct 31 09:17:07 2014
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On 10/31/14 5:17 AM, Benoit Claise wrote:
> Pete,
>> 9th paragraph:
>>
>>     Definition of a discovery functionality for autonomic functions
>>
>> I don't understand what that means. By "functionality" do you mean
>> protocol?
>>
>> Brian's response: "Definition of a discovery protocol for autonomic
>> nodes."
> After some more investigation, this was discussed in 
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00454.html,
>
>     1) the choice of the term "functionality" instead of "protocol"
>     was used on purpose as to avoid choosing _a priori_ the
>     (de)composition in protocol(s). i.e. one _a posteriori_ / informed
>     decision will be how to "group" the different functionality in one
>     or more protocols (or extension of existing ones).
>
> I thought that Laurent had a valid argument.

Then let's take a shot at rewriting it so that it's clear what the 
intention is:

    The goal of this working group shall be to develop one or more
    protocol specifications (or extensions to existing protocols) to
    address the following problem areas. These were selected to according
    to the analyzed technical gaps in draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis:

    o Discovery for autonomic nodes

    o Negotiation for autonomic nodes
       Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol

    o Bootstrapping a trust infrastructure
       Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures

    o Separated Autonomic Control Plane
       Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane

pr

-- 
Pete Resnick<http://www.qualcomm.com/~presnick/>
Qualcomm Technologies, Inc. - +1 (858)651-4478


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On 10/31/14 5:17 AM, Benoit Claise wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:54537DDF.4090103@cisco.com" type="cite">
  <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
 http-equiv="Content-Type">
  <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Pete,<br>
  </div>
  <blockquote
 cite="mid:20141030144919.7222.58863.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com"
 type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">
9th paragraph:

   Definition of a discovery functionality for autonomic functions

I don't understand what that means. By "functionality" do you mean
protocol?

Brian's response: "Definition of a discovery protocol for autonomic
nodes."</pre>
  </blockquote>
After some more investigation, this was discussed in <a
 moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
 href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00454.html">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00454.html</a>,<br>
  <blockquote><font color="#333333">1) the choice of the term
"functionality" instead of "protocol" was used on purpose as to avoid
choosing <u>a priori</u> the (de)composition in protocol(s). i.e. one <u>a
posteriori</u> / informed decision will be how to "group" the different
functionality in one or more protocols (or extension of existing ones).</font></blockquote>
I thought that Laurent had a valid argument.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Then let's take a shot at rewriting it so that it's clear what the
intention is:<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; The goal of this working group shall be to develop one or more<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; protocol specifications (or extensions to existing protocols) to<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; address the following problem areas. These were selected to according<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; to the analyzed technical gaps in draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis:<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; o Discovery for autonomic nodes<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; o Negotiation for autonomic nodes<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; o Bootstrapping a trust infrastructure<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; o Separated Autonomic Control Plane<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane<br>
<br>
pr<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
Pete Resnick <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://www.qualcomm.com/~presnick/">&lt;http://www.qualcomm.com/~presnick/&gt;</a>
Qualcomm Technologies, Inc. - +1 (858)651-4478</pre>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA scope + homenet interaction + charter v15
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Le 31/10/2014 16:47, Ted Lemon a écrit :
> On Oct 31, 2014, at 10:55 AM, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
> wrote:
>> The current general mechanism are too general to work for the use
>> case of hierarchical prefix delegation. But if we add hierarchical
>> topology and no bypass requests as constraint conditions, we may be
>> able to make hierarchical prefix delegation work.
>
> No, that is not the point I am making.   The point I am making is
> that hierarchical delegation simply won't work, no matter what
> mechanism you put in place to do it, because the network has to be
> able to grow incrementally.   With that as a base assumption, you
> cannot predict where the network will grow, so you don't know how to
> construct the hierarchy.   Once the hierarchy is constructed, you
> would have to renumber on a regular basis to make hierarchical
> delegation work.

At which point one wonders whether Router Renumbering RFC2894 may need 
some updates.

Alex


    I think it is preferable to simply allow for a
> complete routing table, and then try as best as possible to make
> routing hierarchical, without demanding perfection.
>
> _______________________________________________ homenet mailing list
> homenet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/homenet
>
>



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--=-=-=


Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
    > Right (after scanning your examples). So let me ask a more specific
    > question: look at draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures and

read it awhile ago... examples come *FROM* reading it :-)

    > draft-ietf-netconf-zerotouch and opine whether either or both of them
    > is doing what we need. Or to put it another way, what do we need to
    > define in a generic way for all deployments, and what has to be defined
    > for specific scenarios?

I had read both before; bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures is too abstract to
judge the details....  I read zerotouch before it became a netconf draft, and
aside from being the only thing that I think is an issue with zerotouch
is that I think this MUST should be a MAY:

   "Devices supporting ZeroTouch MUST be pre-provisioned with one or more
    URIs for Internet-based Configuration Servers. "

The problem with https: URIs is that can not be used if one wants a
completely offline mechanism.  The secure URLs are to be tried first... in
order to make the offline parts work, one would need to block access to the
secure URLs, and then, I guess, impersonate the insecure ones.  This seems
wrong to me. So while the DHCP option can provide additional locations, it
seems rather pointless to force the local information to be processed last,
when it might be as secure as anything else.

It is certainly the case that netconf-zerotouch is not going to work for the
6tisch LLN situation;  but that's not a surprise to anyone I hope, nor does
it make it wrong for larger systems.

I think ZeroTouch already has enough security:

   In order to verify the signature on retrieved configurations, devices
   supporting ZeroTouch MUST also possess the trust anchor for the
   Configuration Signer that signed the configuration.


--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA scope + homenet interaction + charter v15
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On Oct 31, 2014, at 1:14 PM, Alexandre Petrescu =
<alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:
> At which point one wonders whether Router Renumbering RFC2894 may need =
some updates.

I don't think that's the right approach.   Renumbering makes sense when =
it's needed, but renumbering whenever you need to balance the routing =
hierarchy?   That's a lot of pain for a very minimal return.


From nobody Fri Oct 31 12:16:03 2014
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Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2014 08:15:56 +1300
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Pete Resnick's No Objection on charter-ietf-anima-00-17: (with COMMENT)
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On 01/11/2014 05:16, Pete Resnick wrote:
> On 10/31/14 5:17 AM, Benoit Claise wrote:
>> Pete,
>>> 9th paragraph:
>>>
>>>     Definition of a discovery functionality for autonomic functions
>>>
>>> I don't understand what that means. By "functionality" do you mean
>>> protocol?
>>>
>>> Brian's response: "Definition of a discovery protocol for autonomic
>>> nodes."
>> After some more investigation, this was discussed in
>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/anima/current/msg00454.html,
>>
>>     1) the choice of the term "functionality" instead of "protocol"
>>     was used on purpose as to avoid choosing _a priori_ the
>>     (de)composition in protocol(s). i.e. one _a posteriori_ / informed
>>     decision will be how to "group" the different functionality in one
>>     or more protocols (or extension of existing ones).
>>
>> I thought that Laurent had a valid argument.
> 
> Then let's take a shot at rewriting it so that it's clear what the
> intention is:
> 
>    The goal of this working group shall be to develop one or more
>    protocol specifications (or extensions to existing protocols) to
>    address the following problem areas. These were selected to according
>    to the analyzed technical gaps in draft-irtf-nmrg-an-gap-analysis:
> 
>    o Discovery for autonomic nodes
> 
>    o Negotiation for autonomic nodes
>       Starting point: draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol
> 
>    o Bootstrapping a trust infrastructure
>       Starting point: draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures
> 
>    o Separated Autonomic Control Plane
>       Starting point: draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane

No objections.

We could do these updates too now:
s/draft-jiang-config-negotiation-protocol/draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol/
s/draft-behringer-autonomic-control-plane/draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane/

   Brian


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Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2014 08:25:58 +1300
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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] ANIMA scope + homenet interaction + charter v15
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On 01/11/2014 04:47, Ted Lemon wrote:
> On Oct 31, 2014, at 10:55 AM, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com> wrote:
>> The current general mechanism are too general to work for the use case of hierarchical prefix delegation. But if we add hierarchical topology and no bypass requests as constraint conditions, we may be able to make hierarchical prefix delegation work.
> 
> No, that is not the point I am making.   The point I am making is that hierarchical delegation simply won't work, no matter what mechanism you put in place to do it, because the network has to be able to grow incrementally.   With that as a base assumption, you cannot predict where the network will grow, so you don't know how to construct the hierarchy.   Once the hierarchy is constructed, you would have to renumber on a regular basis to make hierarchical delegation work.   I think it is preferable to simply allow for a complete routing table, and then try as best as possible to make routing hierarchical, without demanding perfection.

Well yes. That's exactly why in autonomic management of prefixes,
we need peer to peer negotiation, as in "I need 3 /64s that I
don't have, do you have any spare ones for me?" Maybe it's
badly explained but that is the whole point of our use case.

   Brian


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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] ANIMA scope + homenet interaction + charter v15
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On Oct 31, 2014, at 3:25 PM, Brian E Carpenter =
<brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well yes. That's exactly why in autonomic management of prefixes,
> we need peer to peer negotiation, as in "I need 3 /64s that I
> don't have, do you have any spare ones for me?" Maybe it's
> badly explained but that is the whole point of our use case.

Sure, you can approach it as a sort of flood fill algorithm that tries =
to optimize for route aggregation, but copes if that optimization =
doesn't pan out.


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Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] ANIMA scope + homenet interaction + charter v15
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> On Oct 31, 2014, at 4:04 PM, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:
>=20
>> On Oct 31, 2014, at 3:25 PM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.c=
om> wrote:
>> Well yes. That's exactly why in autonomic management of prefixes,
>> we need peer to peer negotiation, as in "I need 3 /64s that I
>> don't have, do you have any spare ones for me?" Maybe it's
>> badly explained but that is the whole point of our use case.
>=20
> Sure, you can approach it as a sort of flood fill algorithm that tries to o=
ptimize for route aggregation, but copes if that optimization doesn't pan ou=
t.
>=20
Do we have use cases in which the number of links is so large that unaggrega=
ted routing tables will be a problem?

- Ralph


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Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2014 13:19:08 +1300
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Cc: Markus Stenberg <markus.stenberg@iki.fi>, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, "homenet@ietf.org" <homenet@ietf.org>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: [Anima] [homenet] ANIMA scope + homenet interaction + charter v15
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On 01/11/2014 12:28, Ralph Droms wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Oct 31, 2014, at 4:04 PM, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Oct 31, 2014, at 3:25 PM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Well yes. That's exactly why in autonomic management of prefixes,
>>> we need peer to peer negotiation, as in "I need 3 /64s that I
>>> don't have, do you have any spare ones for me?" Maybe it's
>>> badly explained but that is the whole point of our use case.
>> Sure, you can approach it as a sort of flood fill algorithm that tries to optimize for route aggregation, but copes if that optimization doesn't pan out.
>>
> Do we have use cases in which the number of links is so large that unaggregated routing tables will be a problem?

Not that I'm aware of. In the case of a carrier, the prefix will be aggregated
anyway when it is announced to peer carriers, and possibly aggregated
regionally anyway if it's a very large carrier. Of course, there will be
a scaling limit and that should be a consideration in the design.

    Brian


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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" <bclaise@cisco.com>, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Summary status of ANIMA drafts submission
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Summary status of ANIMA drafts submission
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Ah, so we CAN still submit??? Sorry I was unaware. Will do this first thing=
 Monday.=20

Michael

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Benoit Claise (bclaise)
> Sent: 31 October 2014 15:17
> To: Sheng Jiang; Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Anima] Summary status of ANIMA drafts submission
>=20
> Dear draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures authors,
> >>> We are missed one essential component draft that was agreed in the
> >>> initial
> >>> plan:
> >>>
> >>> draft-X-anima-trust-bootstrap (Who is responsible?). If people are
> >>> still working on it, it may be submitted after the online draft
> >>> submission tool reopen at the night of Oct. 8.
> >> This is draft-pritikin-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures. It didn't
> >> get re-submitted with "anima" in the title, but this is the draft.
> > Hi, Michael,
> >
> > Even the content remains unchanged, re-submitted with "anima" in the
> title would be helpful. For now, this draft does not appear on the WG pag=
es,
> link below, which is auto generated based on the document naming rules.
> >
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/anima/documents/
> >
> > Therefore, it is highly possible many people who are interested in ANIM=
A
> would miss this draft.
> >
> > So, please do re-submit this draft with "anima" when the online draft
> submission tool reopen at the night of Nov. 9th. We will have the meeting
> on the Monday, Nov. 10th.
> Even better. Rename your draft to
> draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfrastructures, send it now to
> internet-drafts@ietf.org, and cc me.
>  From there, I will approve the post.
>=20
> Regards, Benoit
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Sheng
> >
> >> Michael
> >>
> >>> More contributions and drafts are always welcome.
> >>>
> >>> The status of the ANIMA meeting in the coming IETF91 will only be
> >>> decided at this week's IESG meeting and the chairs are not yet
> >>> known. Therefore,
> >> the
> >>> agenda process is running late.
> >>>
> >>> Best regards,
> >>>
> >>> Sheng
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Anima mailing list
> >>> Anima@ietf.org
> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> > _______________________________________________
> > Anima mailing list
> > Anima@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> >

