From nobody Mon Jan 5 11:43:49 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCC531A1B95 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2015 11:43:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.121 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.121 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B9_vETvhbXJ2 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2015 11:43:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from jenni1.inet.fi (mta-out1.inet.fi [62.71.2.195]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DA621A8914 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2015 11:33:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from poro.lan (80.220.64.126) by jenni1.inet.fi (8.5.142.08) (authenticated as stenma-47) id 546BDD58054002E3; Mon, 5 Jan 2015 21:33:19 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.1 \(1993\)) From: Markus Stenberg In-Reply-To: <20150105190837.12669.63781.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2015 21:33:18 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4DD05C58-97CA-45E7-AFAE-679F56BD8661@iki.fi> References: <20150105190837.12669.63781.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: anima@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1993) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/-6SxZ6tRJTDwKF9RuHEDqsb_IAs Cc: Steven Barth , Markus Stenberg Subject: Re: [Anima] New Version Notification for draft-ietf-homenet-dncp-00.txt X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2015 19:43:48 -0000 > On 5.1.2015, at 21.08, Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote: >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-homenet-dncp-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Steven Barth and posted to the > IETF repository. >=20 > Name: draft-ietf-homenet-dncp > Revision: 00 > Title: Distributed Node Consensus Protocol > Document date: 2015-01-05 > Group: homenet > Pages: 26 > URL: = http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-homenet-dncp-00.txt > Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-homenet-dncp/ > Htmlized: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-homenet-dncp-00 >=20 >=20 > Abstract: > This document describes the Distributed Node Consensus Protocol > (DNCP), a generic state synchronization protocol which uses Trickle > and Merkle trees. DNCP is transport agnostic and leaves some of the > details to be specified in profiles, which define actual > implementable DNCP based protocols. Splitting of HNCP-02 to a generic transport-independent protocol = (DNCP-00) and the Homenet-specific application of it (HNCP-03) seemed = desirable based on input from IETF91 in Hawaii. Therefore, we did the split, clarifying and reworking the few nits we = had with the original HNCP-02. In general DNCP is a protocol-framework = which defines how nodes communicate, how data is encoded and secured = (earlier security considerations which were temporarily split into a = separate draft have been remerged) in an abstract way. Details (such as = transport, timer values, port numbers, etc.) are left to the individual = DNCP profiles such as HNCP. As the state synchronization mechanism may be also of use here, = crossposted :-) Cheers, -Markus ( + Steven )= From nobody Mon Jan 5 14:11:45 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 596241A0126 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2015 14:11:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rc0wDEHwao4D for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2015 14:11:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x22f.google.com (mail-pa0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22f]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 311D71A9023 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2015 14:11:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f47.google.com with SMTP id kq14so29559635pab.20 for ; Mon, 05 Jan 2015 14:11:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=jUma95OH+VXn1qqbByxvDZooCZUeHD0jqQksZyEzKp8=; b=F4kQpaHcpZrlZjj8gfjZCKYCGMy+O/LEXJm762IMaFNk2khRVfNUQHnWlrzeLyZfD3 q/321YN1MHlmRo4xvFGod8UgTKdYO8okv7T6gUpYiRQzWIJKNpfd77iPw5G8ychcP3Lo CGneNKzlfVmY8xOUlp26X4cErq7SszwxTyKgM7MswVApSCw4qQTx/fi+a1aYpEl+xtLp R9cNPBppm0DAbwSnAkjYrAkxxfsCnFT3LKs8XbklDZWEbFX8xc2iYgRAxVadtqAxhA93 3dIsmhD2RlKWr/iawF3AbgS79fgac+D6jPaIsufTvCpTgOIFB+fsaU5KyvtrPjCVDMY3 4/dw== X-Received: by 10.68.194.170 with SMTP id hx10mr82861653pbc.135.1420495895321; Mon, 05 Jan 2015 14:11:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:62ab:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:62ab:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ni9sm55174492pdb.36.2015.01.05.14.11.32 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 05 Jan 2015 14:11:34 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <54AB0C27.8040000@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2015 11:11:51 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: anima@ietf.org References: <20150105215607.10563.75709.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20150105215607.10563.75709.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <20150105215607.10563.75709.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/Rw4A16JB0b2BsaLuXTjSs5MwfXo Cc: "Liubing \(Leo\)" Subject: [Anima] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01.txt X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2015 22:11:38 -0000 Hi, Here is an updated version of our candidate protocol for Anima. We did quite a lot of work on the draft, so the diffs may not be very helpful. Note in particular: 1. We restructured the logical flow of the document. We hope the document is now more self-explanatory. 2. We now describe synchronization completely. 3. We added unsolicited responses. 4. There are numerous corrections and clarifications. 5. We expanded the future work list - there are still a lot of open issues. 6. Sheng Jiang has stepped down as an author due to his WG Chair role. We'd really appreciate review, comments, opinions, and suggestions. (Note that the reference to HNCP is still present, but for next time we need to update to cite draft-ietf-homenet-dncp. Our synchronization model is intentionally less strict than theirs.) Regards Brian + Bing -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01.txt Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2015 13:56:07 -0800 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : A Generic Discovery and Negotiation Protocol for Autonomic Networking Authors : Brian Carpenter Bing Liu Filename : draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01.txt Pages : 42 Date : 2015-01-05 Abstract: This document establishes requirements for a protocol that enables intelligent devices to dynamically discover peer devices, to synchronize state with them, and to negotiate mutual configurations with them. The document then defines a general protocol for discovery, synchronization and negotiation, while the technical objectives for specific scenarios are to be described in separate documents. An Appendix briefly discusses existing protocols as possible alternatives. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol/ There's also a htmlized version available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01 A diff from the previous version is available at: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt From nobody Tue Jan 6 02:09:03 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A097C1A3B9B for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2015 02:09:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.521 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.521 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, J_CHICKENPOX_38=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pZSPNLRtR3TB for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2015 02:09:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from jenni1.inet.fi (mta-out1.inet.fi [62.71.2.195]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 394161A1BC3 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2015 02:09:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from poro.lan (80.220.64.126) by jenni1.inet.fi (8.5.142.08) (authenticated as stenma-47) id 546BDD58054EA493; Tue, 6 Jan 2015 12:08:57 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.1 \(1993\)) From: Markus Stenberg In-Reply-To: <54AB0C27.8040000@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2015 12:08:56 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <90402FF0-18E4-42BC-BCD9-588E923B12A9@iki.fi> References: <20150105215607.10563.75709.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <54AB0C27.8040000@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1993) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/JW2PZ75YKEXpD--LeIFG-1lfpDc Cc: Markus Stenberg , "Liubing \(Leo\)" , anima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01.txt X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2015 10:09:02 -0000 Heya, it is a good thing at least the todo states that this thing will not = scale (at least if hit by DoS / there is much traffic / low-power = devices are involved) due to async crypto op per message. As that part = of my emails was incorporated as feedback, I hope also the fact that = DNCP _can_ be used to synchronize distinct subgraphs (think = objective-specific state graphs, and/or per-link state graphs) makes it = also to the edition that compares GDN with DNCP. However, I am not sure what the new =E2=80=99synchronization=E2=80=99 = semantics really are. To me, they seem like the (old) req+response = =E2=80=99negotiation=E2=80=99 sprinkled with =E2=80=98you can also do = unsolicited Trickled multicast / unicast if you feel like it=E2=80=99, = without specifying any further behavior. Sure, saying all of that is = objective-specific is a neat way of leaving all details/state out of the = base protocol, but it also burdens specific objective definitions = overmuch. Is the synchronization objective supposed to have some sort of = TTL? Keep-alive indicator (to indicate unicast sync still makes sense - = and what would it look like? not covered)? Something else?=20 Similarly in case of unsolicited multicast, what _exactly_ is =E2=80=99sam= e state=E2=80=99 here? Most of the time I would imagine this exchange to = be triggered initially via unicast, so odds of other nodes sending = _exactly_ same packet (to make Trickle matter) is low. How to identify = =E2=80=9Csame=E2=80=9D synchronization state being sent on same link by = other nodes? And if such thing does not exist, why use Trickle at all? Cheers, -Markus= From nobody Tue Jan 6 11:11:04 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 157541A1B4E for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2015 11:11:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_38=0.6, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TQfhNkNQ3CJj for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2015 11:11:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pd0-x230.google.com (mail-pd0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48ACB1A0277 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2015 11:11:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pd0-f176.google.com with SMTP id r10so30913673pdi.7 for ; Tue, 06 Jan 2015 11:10:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=1PaOcaQVxtKpdinjTMWo/Ej3yvVdMHnh4XjF32aNq/s=; b=EuHbapr5l8nRHYUBQS3GlxeGvR3QnY9FPQKw3PACtdBlp0hpU9YI/gX8dOjApndK7j ICU1NULSo3oXsSG8TVqDMjCgoDE59fOx7C7ugd8t6jX57iQOPNVEDtlIVoXTZsSrcyjT FR/hsszSuTb6KtqWzSLe7HsmaPyNXjk9Dq7Hs5U0vFG4rQeK3M6/qHtlU7qO8NqFMFvo 58s9bmNj1grt1YIqc1YUknynr4qtRVIaC89YQQicDs+jno1K1kDebEqYMvCfFvi9Q5UH kdnynZZ1U4A1efsNi5Da0anOYcqzTn+R3UBIa+fSJZKdGF8g/vUSezo8PaMsP6BFXB8n 61wA== X-Received: by 10.66.119.193 with SMTP id kw1mr65443340pab.64.1420571459603; Tue, 06 Jan 2015 11:10:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:6d7b:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:6d7b:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id i9sm55630052pdj.27.2015.01.06.11.10.56 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 06 Jan 2015 11:10:58 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <54AC3355.8050404@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2015 08:11:17 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Markus Stenberg References: <20150105215607.10563.75709.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <54AB0C27.8040000@gmail.com> <90402FF0-18E4-42BC-BCD9-588E923B12A9@iki.fi> In-Reply-To: <90402FF0-18E4-42BC-BCD9-588E923B12A9@iki.fi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/JSxcVMnFsXS9RcOvS4mK3G83kr8 Cc: "Liubing \(Leo\)" , anima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01.txt X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2015 19:11:02 -0000 Hi Markus, On 06/01/2015 23:08, Markus Stenberg wrote: > Heya, >=20 > it is a good thing at least the todo states that this thing will not sc= ale (at least if hit by DoS / there is much traffic / low-power devices a= re involved) due to async crypto op per message. As that part of my email= s was incorporated as feedback, I hope also the fact that DNCP _can_ be u= sed to synchronize distinct subgraphs (think objective-specific state gra= phs, and/or per-link state graphs) makes it also to the edition that comp= ares GDN with DNCP. Yes. We didn't want to tear out the security text for this version, but I certainly want to discuss this aspect. (And we owe you a mention in the Acknowledgements.) >=20 > However, I am not sure what the new =E2=80=99synchronization=E2=80=99 s= emantics really are. To me, they seem like the (old) req+response =E2=80=99= negotiation=E2=80=99 sprinkled with =E2=80=98you can also do unsolicited = Trickled multicast / unicast if you feel like it=E2=80=99, without specif= ying any further behavior. Sure, saying all of that is objective-specific= is a neat way of leaving all details/state out of the base protocol, but= it also burdens specific objective definitions overmuch.=20 True. But it didn't feel right to include specifics such the DNCP hash in= the base protocol. It may be that we need to define a standard template f= or the objectives, which every specific objective would inherit by default. And that template would need to answer all your questions below. > Is the synchronization objective supposed to have some sort of TTL? Kee= p-alive indicator (to indicate unicast sync still makes sense - and what = would it look like? not covered)? Something else?=20 >=20 > Similarly in case of unsolicited multicast, what _exactly_ is =E2=80=99= same state=E2=80=99 here? Most of the time I would imagine this exchange = to be triggered initially via unicast, so odds of other nodes sending _ex= actly_ same packet (to make Trickle matter) is low. How to identify =E2=80= =9Csame=E2=80=9D synchronization state being sent on same link by other n= odes? And if such thing does not exist, why use Trickle at all? Thanks for asking these questions. They raise another one in my mind: wha= t is the *scope* of a synchronization objective? In a large scale network, it cannot reasonably be the whole network, but it needs to be more than one link. Brian From nobody Tue Jan 6 23:41:20 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5855F1A8972 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2015 23:41:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.521 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.521 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, J_CHICKENPOX_38=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3-QS0-c0Yuru for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2015 23:41:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from jenni2.inet.fi (mta-out1.inet.fi [62.71.2.227]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 491EC1A8971 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2015 23:41:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from poro.lan (80.220.64.126) by jenni2.inet.fi (8.5.142.08) (authenticated as stenma-47) id 546BDD5305679837; Wed, 7 Jan 2015 09:41:13 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.1 \(1993\)) From: Markus Stenberg In-Reply-To: <54AC3355.8050404@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2015 09:41:11 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <11C7AF02-E5F0-43DB-AECC-CE0A469C780B@iki.fi> References: <20150105215607.10563.75709.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <54AB0C27.8040000@gmail.com> <90402FF0-18E4-42BC-BCD9-588E923B12A9@iki.fi> <54AC3355.8050404@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1993) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/yhT9dDafCpANOtmpvWyrzCeRLQA Cc: Markus Stenberg , "Liubing \(Leo\)" , anima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01.txt X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2015 07:41:19 -0000 On 6.1.2015, at 21.11, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >> However, I am not sure what the new =E2=80=99synchronization=E2=80=99 = semantics really are. To me, they seem like the (old) req+response = =E2=80=99negotiation=E2=80=99 sprinkled with =E2=80=98you can also do = unsolicited Trickled multicast / unicast if you feel like it=E2=80=99, = without specifying any further behavior. Sure, saying all of that is = objective-specific is a neat way of leaving all details/state out of the = base protocol, but it also burdens specific objective definitions = overmuch.=20 > True. But it didn't feel right to include specifics such the DNCP hash = in > the base protocol. It may be that we need to define a standard = template for > the objectives, which every specific objective would inherit by = default. > And that template would need to answer all your questions below. After hitting send I started to wonder actually about this bit more. = There are two different paths on how the {negotiation,synchronization} = objectives can be really specified; one option is to leave base protocol = REALLY simple (and that would mean that you could even remove Trickle = mention here). Second is that it will actually specify (or give = examples) of how particular things can be done in practise but perhaps = still not constrain the solution to e.g. Trickle only for dealing with = multicast. The =E2=80=99simple base=E2=80=99 choice would mean that you would just = say (roughly) that synchronization =3D~ negotiation, with optional = unsolicited uni- or multicast response message(s) on top (specified in = the objective). Mentioning Trickle here is just a half-way measure of = sorts and that is why I reacted to it when I read it as =E2=80=98just = use Trickle=E2=80=99 is not that helpful but may constrain solution = space. Personally I would probably rather leave base spec relatively bare, if = you are shooting for universality. Perhaps provide an appendix or = something with (non-exhaustive set of) examples of the different = objectives at most. >> Is the synchronization objective supposed to have some sort of TTL? = Keep-alive indicator (to indicate unicast sync still makes sense - and = what would it look like? not covered)? Something else?=20 >>=20 >> Similarly in case of unsolicited multicast, what _exactly_ is =E2=80=99= same state=E2=80=99 here? Most of the time I would imagine this exchange = to be triggered initially via unicast, so odds of other nodes sending = _exactly_ same packet (to make Trickle matter) is low. How to identify = =E2=80=9Csame=E2=80=9D synchronization state being sent on same link by = other nodes? And if such thing does not exist, why use Trickle at all? > Thanks for asking these questions. They raise another one in my mind: = what > is the *scope* of a synchronization objective? In a large scale = network, > it cannot reasonably be the whole network, but it needs to be more = than > one link. Indeed. This is another thing I thought about yesterday a bit; as I read = GDN-01 yesterday, the text almost made it seem just synchronization = between two endpoints, although that sounds very limited. DNCP by = default is graph-wide and as you stated, it is also undesirable in large = networks (you do not want every node of the network in the same graph). I _think_ that for =E2=80=98general=E2=80=99 case, it would be useful to = have synchronization objectives of different scopes, and to some degree = also with different synchronization mechanisms. For example, allow for = single pub-sub style relationship (I subscribe to your updates of $FOO, = you send it to me (and other subscribers) when it changes). On the other = hand, if you have network-wide state of some sort that has potentially = multiple sources of information, you might wind up with something = DNCP-ish.=20 Instead of scopes, in terms of design, to me it matters if there is more = than one source for information of that particular type; for single = source(/few ~static ones), ~tree(s) of subscriptions works fairly well = although of course there is the reliable messaging angle to be = considered. If there are multiple sources, then it gets complex and you = may want something from the graph synchronization side of the fence. = In-protocol prefix assignment with arbitrary set of egress points in the = network qualifies for example ([1] - now it is actually just abstract = algorithm that can be reused, with some glue in the HNCP document = between it and DNCP profile). Interestingly enough, on the HNCP front, we have been having occassional = discussions on how to deal with scopes, or alternatively provide a way = for non graph participating node to publish data, and subscribe to = updates (think management host that is not around always, or some = low-power device). So ultimately it might turn out that you may want = _both_ even for same objective(s). Cheers, -Markus [1] = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-homenet-prefix-assignment/ From nobody Thu Jan 8 03:49:21 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 386991A89D3 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2015 03:49:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DplCtdS-50kM for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2015 03:49:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from aer-iport-3.cisco.com (aer-iport-3.cisco.com [173.38.203.53]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A0B941A89B3 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2015 03:49:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1946; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1420717756; x=1421927356; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:cc:subject: content-transfer-encoding; bh=1M3DJr5YgZ1pAjmHSZetqp+nSoSL61Q0m6jZjNKzDQw=; b=Zsa1oYci2zs08cAr6ru09Fkh1CtM/AvyakcDcsMmbEA8+kxLC9bkn+gy X0KI1a0/AjproziPnhcZxpetJG3vpm+mnLMJ3p9jIX1vPYrwIY4MT8v2R UF0XPgfbN5p3kEsbMZLPENUitu/xLcfQ4CdosK1mGtcHGqovhI8eTNE1M Q=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AswEAD1urlStJssW/2dsb2JhbABcg1hYxgKFc4FWAQEBAQF9hEtAATwWGAMCAQIBSw0BBwEBFgGIEQ3GLgEBAQEBAQEDAQEBAQEBARcEjygBAU+EMAEEk3mDQYEOhQiIH4M5IoNvPTEBgQuBNwEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.07,722,1413244800"; d="scan'208";a="299591733" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-4.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 08 Jan 2015 11:49:14 +0000 Received: from [10.60.67.84] (ams-bclaise-8913.cisco.com [10.60.67.84]) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t08BnEYd015029; Thu, 8 Jan 2015 11:49:14 GMT Message-ID: <54AE6EBA.3000705@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2015 12:49:14 +0100 From: Benoit Claise User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "anima@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: Lemon Ted , "" Subject: [Anima] ANIMA WG transition to Ted as Responsible AD X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2015 11:49:19 -0000 Dear all, In order to execute the IESG YANG Model Work Redistribution plan (see https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg90926.html) and in accordance with the IETF areas re-organisation steps (see https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg91015.html), Ted Lemon will become the ANIMA responsible AD. This is a good news as Ted can also facilitate the HOMENET interaction Note that ANIMA WG will remain in the OPS area. While Ted will be the responsible starting now, this change will only appear on the charter page in a little bit (we're targeting mid February). Indeed, the tooling aspects will have to checked: we might face a few issues when a non-OPS AD is responsible for an OPS WG. I don't disappear from the IESG and I'm always available if you require my help, but Ted is now your responsible AD. Actually, I welcome this move for a different reason. Indeed, we received some feedback that this WG was perceived as too Cisco-centric: AD, one Chair, and the Technical Advisor. Note that the security AD didn't even consider the affiliation when selecting their Technical Advisor. The LMAP chairs and I had a conf. call to discuss this perception issue. Here is a summary of the discussion: - Next to the AD change, as I (believed I) mentioned on the mic. during the last meeting, the chairs agreed to take a less active editor role in the major solution drafts - We would like to stress that other people are welcome if they want to join the draft, based on contributions - Finally, the ANIMA WG is open for topics/drafts that are relevant to autonomic networking. Beside the current milestones, other autonomic infrastructure components, policy intents, use cases or autonomic service agents are strongly encouraged, as individual submissions. They could be discussed as potential recharter contents in the future. Good work and regards, Benoit From nobody Thu Jan 8 04:19:48 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D69F1A89E9 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2015 04:19:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id usG6ZKoufijr for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2015 04:19:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from aer-iport-4.cisco.com (aer-iport-4.cisco.com [173.38.203.54]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC5451A89B5 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2015 04:19:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2268; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1420719583; x=1421929183; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=apnmx6h+amuK3dWRSFRDDqr10D0kStPdiZC7T58NK98=; b=iCi21kEb4Pl/BIHcH5yXkPA8PaaNfjblnU5iQMqh61hjXO+IlFmpdixE s/JXe5/UD5PWfntTyO+kelxw7GS7ORh7BjSXLt/fh22mqsoQ9PwKo1Ox2 6ADxQIID43vNLNVef6il4f6Gfe45rDqE5za+efC2DS9xsdoMy/fAUwTKs 0=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AtAEAEp1rlStJssW/2dsb2JhbABcg1hYxXgKhXMCgVQBAQEBAX2EDQEBBAEBATU2CgEQCxgJFg8JAwIBAgEVMAYNAQUCAQEWAYgRDcY4AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBEwSPKAEBTweEKQEEk3mDQYEOhQiIH4M5IoNvPTEBgQuBNwEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.07,722,1413244800"; d="scan'208";a="299557407" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 08 Jan 2015 12:19:41 +0000 Received: from [10.60.67.84] (ams-bclaise-8913.cisco.com [10.60.67.84]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t08CJeWY004029; Thu, 8 Jan 2015 12:19:40 GMT Message-ID: <54AE75DC.5090300@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2015 13:19:40 +0100 From: Benoit Claise User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "anima@ietf.org" References: <54AE6EBA.3000705@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <54AE6EBA.3000705@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: Lemon Ted , "" Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA WG transition to Ted as Responsible AD X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2015 12:19:45 -0000 On 08/01/2015 12:49, Benoit Claise wrote: > Dear all, > > In order to execute the IESG YANG Model Work Redistribution plan (see > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg90926.html) and > in accordance with the IETF areas re-organisation steps (see > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg91015.html), Ted > Lemon will become the ANIMA responsible AD. This is a good news as Ted > can also facilitate the HOMENET interaction > > Note that ANIMA WG will remain in the OPS area. While Ted will be the > responsible starting now, this change will only appear on the charter > page in a little bit (we're targeting mid February). Indeed, the > tooling aspects will have to checked: we might face a few issues when > a non-OPS AD is responsible for an OPS WG. > > I don't disappear from the IESG and I'm always available if you > require my help, but Ted is now your responsible AD. > > Actually, I welcome this move for a different reason. > Indeed, we received some feedback that this WG was perceived as too > Cisco-centric: AD, one Chair, and the Technical Advisor. Note that > the security AD didn't even consider the affiliation when selecting > their Technical Advisor. > > The LMAP chairs OLD: LMAP chairs NEW: ANIMA chairs Regards, Benoit > and I had a conf. call to discuss this perception issue. Here is a > summary of the discussion: > - Next to the AD change, as I (believed I) mentioned on the mic. > during the last meeting, the chairs agreed to take a less active > editor role in the major solution drafts > - We would like to stress that other people are welcome if they want > to join the draft, based on contributions > - Finally, the ANIMA WG is open for topics/drafts that are relevant to > autonomic networking. Beside the current milestones, other autonomic > infrastructure components, policy intents, use cases or autonomic > service agents are strongly encouraged, as individual submissions. > They could be discussed as potential recharter contents in the future. > > Good work and regards, Benoit > > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > . > From nobody Thu Jan 8 17:20:01 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D3BC1A7001 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2015 17:19:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id er8zzjIpeOra for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2015 17:19:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5B8601A6FE9 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2015 17:19:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BRA58800; Fri, 09 Jan 2015 01:19:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML410-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.41) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Fri, 9 Jan 2015 01:19:50 +0000 Received: from NKGEML512-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.128]) by nkgeml410-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.41]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Fri, 9 Jan 2015 09:19:47 +0800 From: Sheng Jiang To: Benoit Claise , "anima@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Anima] ANIMA WG transition to Ted as Responsible AD Thread-Index: AQHQKzk/iCD2MVwOGEWcmQgQf7jhKZy2/BUA Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 01:19:45 +0000 Message-ID: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B005A7C@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <54AE6EBA.3000705@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <54AE6EBA.3000705@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.98.145] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: Lemon Ted , "" Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA WG transition to Ted as Responsible AD X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2015 01:19:57 -0000 VGhhbmtzIEJlbm9pdCBmb3IgeW91ciBzdXBwb3J0cyBhbmQgd29ya3MgaW4gYm90aCBBTklNQSBX RyBmb3JtaW5nLiBBbGwgdGhlIGJlc3QgZm9yIHlvdXIgWUFORyBtb2RlbCB3b3Jrcy4gV2Ugd2ls bCBzdGlsbCBuZWVkIHlvdXIgYWR2aWNlcyBhbmQgc3VwcG9ydHMgaW4gdGhlIGZ1dHVyZSB3b3Jr Lg0KDQpXZWxjb21lIHRvIFRlZC4gWW91ciBkZWVwbHkgaW52b2x2ZW1lbnQgYW5kIGRpc2N1c3Np b24gZHVyaW5nIHRoZSBXRyBjaGFydGVyIHN0YWdlIGhhZCBhbHJlYWR5IGdpdmUgdXMgZ3JlYXQg aGVscHMuIExvb2tpbmcgZm9yd2FyZCB0byB3b3JrIHdpdGggeW91Lg0KDQpBbHNvIHRoYW5rcyBT RUMgQURzLiBTZWN1cml0eSBpcyBpbXBvcnRhbnQgYXNwZWN0IGZvciBBdXRvbm9taWMgTmV0d29y aywgaW4gd2hpY2ggdGhlIG5ldHdvcmsgZGV2aWNlcyBoYXZlIG1vcmUgY29udHJvbCBwb3dlcnMu IFdlIG5lZWQgdGhlIGNvbnNpc3RlbnQgYWR2aWNlcyBhbmQgc3VwcG9ydCBmcm9tIHlvdSBhbmQg b3RoZXIgc2VjdXJpdHkgZXhwZXJ0cy4NCg0KQmVzdCByZWdhcmRzLA0KDQpTaGVuZw0KDQo+LS0t LS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCj5Gcm9tOiBBbmltYSBbbWFpbHRvOmFuaW1hLWJvdW5j ZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmddIE9uIEJlaGFsZiBPZiBCZW5vaXQgQ2xhaXNlDQo+U2VudDogVGh1cnNkYXks IEphbnVhcnkgMDgsIDIwMTUgNzo0OSBQTQ0KPlRvOiBhbmltYUBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPkNjOiBMZW1v biBUZWQ7IDxzZWMtYWRzQHRvb2xzLmlldGYub3JnPg0KPlN1YmplY3Q6IFtBbmltYV0gQU5JTUEg V0cgdHJhbnNpdGlvbiB0byBUZWQgYXMgUmVzcG9uc2libGUgQUQNCj4NCj5EZWFyIGFsbCwNCj4N Cj5JbiBvcmRlciB0byBleGVjdXRlIHRoZSBJRVNHIFlBTkcgTW9kZWwgV29yayBSZWRpc3RyaWJ1 dGlvbiBwbGFuIChzZWUNCj5odHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsLWFyY2hpdmUvd2ViL2ll dGYvY3VycmVudC9tc2c5MDkyNi5odG1sKSBhbmQgaW4NCj5hY2NvcmRhbmNlIHdpdGggdGhlIElF VEYgYXJlYXMgcmUtb3JnYW5pc2F0aW9uIHN0ZXBzIChzZWUNCj5odHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9y Zy9tYWlsLWFyY2hpdmUvd2ViL2lldGYvY3VycmVudC9tc2c5MTAxNS5odG1sKSwgVGVkDQo+TGVt b24gd2lsbCBiZWNvbWUgdGhlIEFOSU1BIHJlc3BvbnNpYmxlIEFELiBUaGlzIGlzIGEgZ29vZCBu ZXdzIGFzIFRlZA0KPmNhbiBhbHNvIGZhY2lsaXRhdGUgdGhlIEhPTUVORVQgaW50ZXJhY3Rpb24N Cj4NCj5Ob3RlIHRoYXQgQU5JTUEgV0cgd2lsbCByZW1haW4gaW4gdGhlIE9QUyBhcmVhLiBXaGls ZSBUZWQgd2lsbCBiZSB0aGUNCj5yZXNwb25zaWJsZSBzdGFydGluZyBub3csIHRoaXMgY2hhbmdl IHdpbGwgb25seSBhcHBlYXIgb24gdGhlIGNoYXJ0ZXINCj5wYWdlIGluIGEgbGl0dGxlIGJpdCAo d2UncmUgdGFyZ2V0aW5nIG1pZCBGZWJydWFyeSkuIEluZGVlZCwgdGhlIHRvb2xpbmcNCj5hc3Bl Y3RzIHdpbGwgaGF2ZSB0byBjaGVja2VkOiB3ZSBtaWdodCBmYWNlIGEgZmV3IGlzc3VlcyB3aGVu IGEgbm9uLU9QUw0KPkFEIGlzIHJlc3BvbnNpYmxlIGZvciBhbiBPUFMgV0cuDQo+DQo+SSBkb24n dCBkaXNhcHBlYXIgZnJvbSB0aGUgSUVTRyBhbmQgSSdtIGFsd2F5cyBhdmFpbGFibGUgaWYgeW91 IHJlcXVpcmUNCj5teSBoZWxwLCBidXQgVGVkIGlzIG5vdyB5b3VyIHJlc3BvbnNpYmxlIEFELg0K Pg0KPkFjdHVhbGx5LCBJIHdlbGNvbWUgdGhpcyBtb3ZlIGZvciBhIGRpZmZlcmVudCByZWFzb24u DQo+SW5kZWVkLCB3ZSByZWNlaXZlZCBzb21lIGZlZWRiYWNrIHRoYXQgdGhpcyBXRyB3YXMgcGVy Y2VpdmVkIGFzIHRvbw0KPkNpc2NvLWNlbnRyaWM6IEFELCBvbmUgQ2hhaXIsIGFuZCB0aGUgVGVj aG5pY2FsIEFkdmlzb3IuICBOb3RlIHRoYXQgdGhlDQo+c2VjdXJpdHkgQUQgZGlkbid0IGV2ZW4g Y29uc2lkZXIgdGhlIGFmZmlsaWF0aW9uIHdoZW4gc2VsZWN0aW5nIHRoZWlyDQo+VGVjaG5pY2Fs IEFkdmlzb3IuDQo+DQo+VGhlIExNQVAgY2hhaXJzIGFuZCBJIGhhZCBhIGNvbmYuIGNhbGwgdG8g ZGlzY3VzcyB0aGlzIHBlcmNlcHRpb24gaXNzdWUuDQo+SGVyZSBpcyBhIHN1bW1hcnkgb2YgdGhl IGRpc2N1c3Npb246DQo+LSBOZXh0IHRvIHRoZSBBRCBjaGFuZ2UsIGFzIEkgKGJlbGlldmVkIEkp IG1lbnRpb25lZCBvbiB0aGUgbWljLiBkdXJpbmcNCj50aGUgbGFzdCBtZWV0aW5nLCB0aGUgY2hh aXJzIGFncmVlZCB0byB0YWtlIGEgbGVzcyBhY3RpdmUgZWRpdG9yIHJvbGUgaW4NCj50aGUgbWFq b3Igc29sdXRpb24gZHJhZnRzDQo+LSBXZSB3b3VsZCBsaWtlIHRvIHN0cmVzcyB0aGF0IG90aGVy IHBlb3BsZSBhcmUgd2VsY29tZSBpZiB0aGV5IHdhbnQgdG8NCj5qb2luIHRoZSBkcmFmdCwgYmFz ZWQgb24gY29udHJpYnV0aW9ucw0KPi0gRmluYWxseSwgdGhlIEFOSU1BIFdHIGlzIG9wZW4gZm9y IHRvcGljcy9kcmFmdHMgdGhhdCBhcmUgcmVsZXZhbnQgdG8NCj5hdXRvbm9taWMgbmV0d29ya2lu Zy4gQmVzaWRlIHRoZSBjdXJyZW50IG1pbGVzdG9uZXMsIG90aGVyIGF1dG9ub21pYw0KPmluZnJh c3RydWN0dXJlIGNvbXBvbmVudHMsIHBvbGljeSBpbnRlbnRzLCB1c2UgY2FzZXMgb3IgYXV0b25v bWljDQo+c2VydmljZSBhZ2VudHMgYXJlIHN0cm9uZ2x5IGVuY291cmFnZWQsIGFzIGluZGl2aWR1 YWwgc3VibWlzc2lvbnMuIFRoZXkNCj5jb3VsZCBiZSBkaXNjdXNzZWQgYXMgcG90ZW50aWFsIHJl Y2hhcnRlciBjb250ZW50cyBpbiB0aGUgZnV0dXJlLg0KPg0KPkdvb2Qgd29yayBhbmQgcmVnYXJk cywgQmVub2l0DQo+DQo+X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX18NCj5BbmltYSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj5BbmltYUBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3 LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vYW5pbWENCg== From nobody Thu Jan 8 18:40:09 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E81C41A1B43 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2015 18:40:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SqU-NA_Br2sY for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2015 18:40:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from sjc1-mx02-inside.nominum.com (sjc1-mx02-inside.nominum.com [64.89.234.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB4011A0211 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2015 18:40:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from archivist.nominum.com (archivist.nominum.com [64.89.228.108]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.nominum.com", Issuer "Go Daddy Secure Certificate Authority - G2" (verified OK)) by sjc1-mx02-inside.nominum.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 329A1DA039E for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2015 02:40:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: from webmail.nominum.com (cas-01.win.nominum.com [64.89.228.131]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mail.nominum.com", Issuer "Go Daddy Secure Certificate Authority - G2" (verified OK)) by archivist.nominum.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 792C053E086; Thu, 8 Jan 2015 18:40:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.20.107] (71.233.43.215) by CAS-01.WIN.NOMINUM.COM (192.168.1.100) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.195.1; Thu, 8 Jan 2015 18:40:04 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B005A7C@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 21:39:19 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <0E95598E-39E7-4B73-8B06-4E01D4279B85@nominum.com> References: <54AE6EBA.3000705@cisco.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B005A7C@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> To: Sheng Jiang X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) X-Originating-IP: [71.233.43.215] Archived-At: Cc: Benoit Claise , "" , "anima@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA WG transition to Ted as Responsible AD X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2015 02:40:08 -0000 On Jan 8, 2015, at 8:19 PM, Sheng Jiang wrote: > Welcome to Ted. Your deeply involvement and discussion during the WG = charter stage had already give us great helps. Looking forward to work = with you. Likewise. :) From nobody Fri Jan 9 17:25:18 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3086D1A1B6D for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2015 17:25:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_38=0.6, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6kwgPSRcIiLn for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2015 17:25:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x233.google.com (mail-pa0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::233]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C6F481A1B6B for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2015 17:25:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f51.google.com with SMTP id ey11so21574789pad.10 for ; Fri, 09 Jan 2015 17:25:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=EzMK4hZ27I9YjZZLyxKb5pZuQSlerYADBgvZhX2cQAI=; b=LuVJ08q+jZbBCmKFrlJJSJcHCh0JA6GshHzrGWQRG6MqYhVPBfFyP2FJPjKviD0/9Z OL/mREl2CvuhZuItj1mo88eOMieAGLuuu6w9q0TrFq1UrKpRpRtlH5NgBibZmf9dtcXc qNNoiTYX4rzSNgho7i3E1QkYFAxbdCmpCqLMUQZ1GUsYY0qwk7qhcmKKhQ2+ymVm2+or yxH2FgtvRB1YX788wMXc3f7yLeZILx2iWhrwrZw78YpWV0bw21u/Nl7G145wlFUBMQKt Si0KwCs2AFsTC4HVP1mC/JVnCDsaGGOoBWl0/HAl925efT8fTDGi049HBJy/i0CUGjka ah6Q== X-Received: by 10.66.254.68 with SMTP id ag4mr27638075pad.39.1420853111997; Fri, 09 Jan 2015 17:25:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:5167:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:5167:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id qh4sm8172839pdb.57.2015.01.09.17.25.08 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 09 Jan 2015 17:25:11 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <54B07F91.3080103@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2015 14:25:37 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Markus Stenberg References: <20150105215607.10563.75709.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <54AB0C27.8040000@gmail.com> <90402FF0-18E4-42BC-BCD9-588E923B12A9@iki.fi> <54AC3355.8050404@gmail.com> <11C7AF02-E5F0-43DB-AECC-CE0A469C780B@iki.fi> In-Reply-To: <11C7AF02-E5F0-43DB-AECC-CE0A469C780B@iki.fi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: "Liubing \(Leo\)" , anima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01.txt X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2015 01:25:15 -0000 On 07/01/2015 20:41, Markus Stenberg wrote: > On 6.1.2015, at 21.11, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >>> However, I am not sure what the new =E2=80=99synchronization=E2=80=99= semantics really are. To me, they seem like the (old) req+response =E2=80= =99negotiation=E2=80=99 sprinkled with =E2=80=98you can also do unsolicit= ed Trickled multicast / unicast if you feel like it=E2=80=99, without spe= cifying any further behavior. Sure, saying all of that is objective-speci= fic is a neat way of leaving all details/state out of the base protocol, = but it also burdens specific objective definitions overmuch.=20 >> True. But it didn't feel right to include specifics such the DNCP hash= in >> the base protocol. It may be that we need to define a standard templat= e for >> the objectives, which every specific objective would inherit by defaul= t. >> And that template would need to answer all your questions below. >=20 > After hitting send I started to wonder actually about this bit more. Th= ere are two different paths on how the {negotiation,synchronization} obje= ctives can be really specified; one option is to leave base protocol REAL= LY simple (and that would mean that you could even remove Trickle mention= here). Second is that it will actually specify (or give examples) of how= particular things can be done in practise but perhaps still not constrai= n the solution to e.g. Trickle only for dealing with multicast. Yes. I think you're right, and the GDN draft is a bit stuck in the middle at the moment. We'll think about that, and the scope question, before the next version. Hello everybody else - we'd like some feedback from the rest of the WG on whether GDN is heading in a reasonable direction. It's a complex document and we don't want to worry about all the details unless people think the general approach is correct. Brian >=20 > The =E2=80=99simple base=E2=80=99 choice would mean that you would just= say (roughly) that synchronization =3D~ negotiation, with optional unsol= icited uni- or multicast response message(s) on top (specified in the obj= ective). Mentioning Trickle here is just a half-way measure of sorts and = that is why I reacted to it when I read it as =E2=80=98just use Trickle=E2= =80=99 is not that helpful but may constrain solution space. >=20 > Personally I would probably rather leave base spec relatively bare, if = you are shooting for universality. Perhaps provide an appendix or somethi= ng with (non-exhaustive set of) examples of the different objectives at m= ost. >=20 >>> Is the synchronization objective supposed to have some sort of TTL? K= eep-alive indicator (to indicate unicast sync still makes sense - and wha= t would it look like? not covered)? Something else?=20 >>> >>> Similarly in case of unsolicited multicast, what _exactly_ is =E2=80=99= same state=E2=80=99 here? Most of the time I would imagine this exchange = to be triggered initially via unicast, so odds of other nodes sending _ex= actly_ same packet (to make Trickle matter) is low. How to identify =E2=80= =9Csame=E2=80=9D synchronization state being sent on same link by other n= odes? And if such thing does not exist, why use Trickle at all? >> Thanks for asking these questions. They raise another one in my mind: = what >> is the *scope* of a synchronization objective? In a large scale networ= k, >> it cannot reasonably be the whole network, but it needs to be more tha= n >> one link. >=20 > Indeed. This is another thing I thought about yesterday a bit; as I rea= d GDN-01 yesterday, the text almost made it seem just synchronization bet= ween two endpoints, although that sounds very limited. DNCP by default is= graph-wide and as you stated, it is also undesirable in large networks (= you do not want every node of the network in the same graph). >=20 > I _think_ that for =E2=80=98general=E2=80=99 case, it would be useful t= o have synchronization objectives of different scopes, and to some degree= also with different synchronization mechanisms. For example, allow for s= ingle pub-sub style relationship (I subscribe to your updates of $FOO, yo= u send it to me (and other subscribers) when it changes). On the other ha= nd, if you have network-wide state of some sort that has potentially mult= iple sources of information, you might wind up with something DNCP-ish.=20 >=20 > Instead of scopes, in terms of design, to me it matters if there is mor= e than one source for information of that particular type; for single sou= rce(/few ~static ones), ~tree(s) of subscriptions works fairly well altho= ugh of course there is the reliable messaging angle to be considered. If = there are multiple sources, then it gets complex and you may want somethi= ng from the graph synchronization side of the fence. In-protocol prefix a= ssignment with arbitrary set of egress points in the network qualifies fo= r example ([1] - now it is actually just abstract algorithm that can be r= eused, with some glue in the HNCP document between it and DNCP profile). >=20 > Interestingly enough, on the HNCP front, we have been having occassiona= l discussions on how to deal with scopes, or alternatively provide a way = for non graph participating node to publish data, and subscribe to update= s (think management host that is not around always, or some low-power dev= ice). So ultimately it might turn out that you may want _both_ even for s= ame objective(s). >=20 > Cheers, >=20 > -Markus >=20 > [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-homenet-prefix-assignme= nt/ >=20 >=20 From nobody Mon Jan 12 00:13:42 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EB5E1A8A70 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2015 00:13:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.611 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.611 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, J_CHICKENPOX_38=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hbI3u9AXdVWw for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2015 00:13:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E55291A8A69 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2015 00:13:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BNV87403; Mon, 12 Jan 2015 08:13:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml409-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.40) by lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Mon, 12 Jan 2015 08:13:34 +0000 Received: from NKGEML512-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.128]) by nkgeml409-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.40]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Mon, 12 Jan 2015 16:13:26 +0800 From: Sheng Jiang To: Brian E Carpenter , Markus Stenberg Thread-Topic: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01.txt Thread-Index: AQHQKZjPTn68pm/KOUWK7XaqJ6JHi5yy78mAgADRhYCABE4QgIAEAklQ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2015 08:13:24 +0000 Message-ID: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B00686F@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <20150105215607.10563.75709.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <54AB0C27.8040000@gmail.com> <90402FF0-18E4-42BC-BCD9-588E923B12A9@iki.fi> <54AC3355.8050404@gmail.com> <11C7AF02-E5F0-43DB-AECC-CE0A469C780B@iki.fi> <54B07F91.3080103@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <54B07F91.3080103@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.98.145] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: "anima@ietf.org" , "Liubing \(Leo\)" Subject: Re: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01.txt X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 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aW5mby9hbmltYQ0K From nobody Tue Jan 13 16:59:18 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E394F1ACE0E for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2015 16:59:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0wHv2_bHt7mE for ; Tue, 13 Jan 2015 16:59:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x236.google.com (mail-pa0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::236]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AAF331ACD46 for ; 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([2001:df0:0:2006:c0da:ac17:5f6d:8e76]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id l4sm15553533pdj.47.2015.01.13.16.59.11 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 13 Jan 2015 16:59:12 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <54B5BF62.1050205@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 13:59:14 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: anima@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Anima] draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra-00 X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2015 00:59:17 -0000 Hi, I finally found time to go through this draft... Is there an accessible white paper or tutorial on IEEE 802.1AR? http://standards.ieee.org/findstds/standard/802.1AR-2009.html is behind a paywall and not particularly helpful as an introductory document. 802.1AR-2009 is very specific that it applies to "IEEE 802 devices." What are the alternatives for other devices? (nit) Is the list of definitions just after Figure 1 intended to be there, or in section 1.1 "Terminology"? In any case there is a dangling sentence at the end of 1.1. (nit) Please delete the noise word "cloud" wherever it occurs. > Domain: The set of entities that trust a common key infrastructure > trust anchor. So, bootstrapping from power-off, how is the domain boundary discovered? Can domains overlap, merge or split? > Domain CA: The domain Certification Authority (CA) optionally > provides certification... I don't understand the "optionally". In what scenario do devices in the domain *not* need to rely on the CA? > Orchestrator:... In simple deployments this might be a > single administrator... Surely in the *simplest* deployment there is no administrator? Just plug-and-play. I think that means an extra case in section 3.3 "Accepting New Entities". Something like auto-detection of new devices followed by auto-registration with some sort of validation step by Joe User: ------------------------------------------------- | A new device has been detected on the network.| | It says "Your new refrigerator is on-line". | | Please click [ACCEPT] within ten seconds to | | allow the device to connect. | ------------------------------------------------- > 3.4. Operating the Network > > Once devices are enrolled to the domain, the network operator can > specify a policy, or otherwise configure the devices if required. > This is outside scope for this document. It's worse than out of scope: it implies old-fashioned management, not autonomic management. Personally I'd delete the section, but if you keep it I'd say something like this: Once devices are enrolled to the domain, they may be managed by traditional centralized mechanisms or by autonomic methods. This is outside scope for this document. > 4.1. Behavior of a new entity ... > A. Search for a Proxy on the local link using Neighbor > Discovery. ND doesn't work for this, any more than ARP would. In the anima context, I would suggest GDNP (but running in an insecure mode, unfortunately). > B. Obtain an IP address using DHCP,... Oops. Firstly, for IPv6, the default way to get a non-link-local address is SLAAC; you can't assume DHCPv6 is available. Secondly, you need an address for step A anyway. You could use a link-local address for step A, but if you get a proper address, life gets easier, because you could rely on the GDNP diversion mechanism. And at that point: you don't need a proxy, because GDNP will divert you directly to a registrar, so you don't need DNS(SD) at all. So it all reduces to Use GDNP to discover a Registrar. > 3. Verify the MASA cloud service generated authorization token as provided by the contacted Registrar. As far as I can see, you don't state anywhere what it means to "verify" or "validate" the MASA authorization token. More important, how will this work for disconnected networks? (I've had to do a factory reset of my seismology truck in the middle of the desert, and the satellite link is down, so the MASA is down.) To be clear, I deeply dislike the dependency on an external service. This is a weak point both in terms of reliability (for obvious reasons) and vulnerability, because it creates a new and very tempting target for attackers. A suborned MASA would be a very wonderful thing: you would completely own all clients of that MASA service. It also creates a customer-capture opportunity, which is not an IETF goal. Why can't registrars do their own logging? (Trivial if there's only one registrar per domain, of course.) Regards Brian Carpenter From nobody Wed Jan 14 21:45:38 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B82651B2AF7 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 2015 21:45:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.686 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.686 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, SUBJ_ALL_CAPS=1.625, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F3MVc5frhOhD for ; Wed, 14 Jan 2015 21:45:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F8FF1B2AF5 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 2015 21:45:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BRJ13271; Thu, 15 Jan 2015 05:45:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml409-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.40) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Thu, 15 Jan 2015 05:45:31 +0000 Received: from NKGEML512-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.128]) by nkgeml409-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.40]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Thu, 15 Jan 2015 13:45:24 +0800 From: Sheng Jiang To: "anima@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: ANIMA @ IETF92 Thread-Index: AdAwhhb9BeESyDn9TF+vFqDvToN1Vw== Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 05:45:23 +0000 Message-ID: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B00902E@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.98.145] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: [Anima] ANIMA @ IETF92 X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2015 05:45:36 -0000 SGksIGFsbCwNCg0KV2UgYXJlIGNlcnRhaW5seSB0byBtZWV0IGluIElFVEY5Mi4gQnV0IHdlIGFy ZSBub3Qgc3VyZSBob3cgbG9uZyB0aGUgc2Vzc2lvbiBvciBzZXNzaW9ucyBzaG91bGQgYmUuIFNv IHBsZWFzZSByZXBseSB0byB0aGUgY2hhaXJzIGJ5IEphbi4gMjB0aCBpZiB5b3Ugd2FudCB0byBt YWtlIHByZXNlbnRhdGlvbnMgaW4gdGhlIGNvbWluZyBBTklNQSBtZWV0aW5nLiBUaGlzIGlzIG5v dCBhbiBvZmZpY2lhbCByZXF1ZXN0IGFnZW5kYSB5ZXQuIFRoZSBjaGFpcnMganVzdCBuZWVkIHNv bWUgYWRkaXRpb25hbCBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiB0byBkZWNpZGUgdGhlIHNlc3Npb24gdGltZSwgcGFy dGljdWxhcmx5IGZvciB0aGVzZSBuZXdseSBlbWVyZ2luZyB3b3JrcyBvciB3b3JrcyBpbiBwcm9n cmVzcy4gQnkgZGVmYXVsdCwgd2UgaGF2ZSBhbHJlYWR5IGluY2x1ZGVkIEdETlAsIGFsc28gRE5D UCBmcm9tIGhvbWVuZXQsIEFDUCBhbmQgYm9vdHN0cmFwcGluZy1rZXlpbmZyYSBpbiB0aGUgc2No ZWR1bGUgYmVjYXVzZSB0aGV5IGFyZSBwcmlvciBtaWxlc3RvbmUtb3JpZW50ZWQgd29ya3MuIFNv IHRoZSBhdXRob3JzIG9mIHRoZXNlIGZvdXIgZHJhZnRzIGRvIG5vdCBuZWVkIHRvIHJlcGx5Lg0K DQpBZ2FpbiwgYXMgYSBlbXBoYXNpcywgdGhlIEFOSU1BIFdHIGlzIG9wZW4gZm9yIHRvcGljcy9k cmFmdHMgdGhhdCBhcmUgcmVsZXZhbnQgdG8gYXV0b25vbWljIG5ldHdvcmtpbmcuIEJlc2lkZSB0 aGUgY3VycmVudCBtaWxlc3RvbmVzLCBvdGhlciBhdXRvbm9taWMgaW5mcmFzdHJ1Y3R1cmUgY29t cG9uZW50cywgcG9saWN5IGludGVudHMsIHVzZSBjYXNlcyBvciBhdXRvbm9taWMgDQpzZXJ2aWNl IGFnZW50cyBhcmUgc3Ryb25nbHkgZW5jb3VyYWdlZCwgYXMgaW5kaXZpZHVhbCBzdWJtaXNzaW9u cy4gVGhleSBjb3VsZCBiZSBkaXNjdXNzZWQgYXMgcG90ZW50aWFsIHJlY2hhcnRlciBjb250ZW50 cyBpbiB0aGUgZnV0dXJlLg0KDQpUaGUgY29uZmxpY3QgbGlzdCBpcyBhcyBmb2xsb3dzOg0KIEZp cnN0IFByaW9yaXR5Oglob21lbmV0IG5ldGNvbmYgdjZvcHMgZGhjIG5tcmcNCiBTZWNvbmQgUHJp b3JpdHk6IDZtYW4gb3BzYXJlYSBpcnRmb3Blbg0KDQpXZSB3aWxsIGFsc28gcmVxdWVzdCBhIE1l ZXRlY2hvIHN1cHBvcnQgaW4gdGhlIHJvb20gaW4gY2FzZSBhbnlvbmUgaXMgcmVtb3RlIC8gbmVl ZCB0byBwcmVzZW50IHJlbW90ZWx5Lg0KDQpXZSB3aWxsIHNlbmQgb3V0IGEgcmVxdWVzdCBmb3Ig YWdlbmRhIGl0ZW1zIGxhdGVyIG5leHQgd2Vlay4NCg0KQmVzdCByZWdhcmRzLA0KDQpTaGVuZyBh bmQgVG9lcmxlc3MNCg0KLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0NCklFVEYgQU5JTUEgd29ya2luZyBncm91cCBtYWls aW5nIGxpc3QNCmFuaW1hQGlldGYub3JnDQpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xp c3RpbmZvL2FuaW1hDQo= From nobody Sat Jan 17 10:45:02 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ECA51ACED4 for ; 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([2406:e007:50bb:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id nj2sm7309440pbc.16.2015.01.17.10.44.53 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 17 Jan 2015 10:44:55 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <54BAAD9F.8020908@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 07:44:47 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sheng Jiang , "anima@ietf.org" References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B00902E@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B00902E@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA @ IETF92 X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2015 18:44:59 -0000 Hi Sheng, > By default, we have already included GDNP, also DNCP from homenet, ACP and bootstrapping-keyinfra in the schedule because they are prior milestone-oriented works. So the authors of these four drafts do not need to reply. That makes sense. However, as co-author on one of those drafts, I would very much like to be able to discuss issues in Dallas rather than give a tutorial on the document. Getting comments on the list well in advance is very important, so that we know which aspects of the documents are unclear or questionable. Regards Brian From nobody Sun Jan 18 19:50:33 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6464E1AD0B1 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 2015 19:50:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u1H-ms3DXwHX for ; Sun, 18 Jan 2015 19:50:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 573B61AD0B0 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 2015 19:50:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BOE22389; Mon, 19 Jan 2015 03:50:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.38) by lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.241) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Mon, 19 Jan 2015 03:50:28 +0000 Received: from NKGEML512-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.106]) by nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.38]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Mon, 19 Jan 2015 11:50:25 +0800 From: Sheng Jiang To: Brian E Carpenter , "anima@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Anima] ANIMA @ IETF92 Thread-Index: AdAwhhb9BeESyDn9TF+vFqDvToN1VwBvIWaAAFXofZA= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 03:50:23 +0000 Message-ID: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B029A8D@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B00902E@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <54BAAD9F.8020908@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <54BAAD9F.8020908@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.99.197] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA @ IETF92 X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 03:50:32 -0000 Pj4gQnkgZGVmYXVsdCwgd2UgaGF2ZSBhbHJlYWR5IGluY2x1ZGVkIEdETlAsIGFsc28gRE5DUCBm cm9tIGhvbWVuZXQsIEFDUA0KPmFuZCBib290c3RyYXBwaW5nLWtleWluZnJhIGluIHRoZSBzY2hl ZHVsZSBiZWNhdXNlIHRoZXkgYXJlIHByaW9yDQo+bWlsZXN0b25lLW9yaWVudGVkIHdvcmtzLiBT byB0aGUgYXV0aG9ycyBvZiB0aGVzZSBmb3VyIGRyYWZ0cyBkbyBub3QgbmVlZCB0bw0KPnJlcGx5 Lg0KPg0KPlRoYXQgbWFrZXMgc2Vuc2UuIEhvd2V2ZXIsIGFzIGNvLWF1dGhvciBvbiBvbmUgb2Yg 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anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5750A1AD0B5 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 2015 20:55:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6jtO2Hwf6h_y for ; Sun, 18 Jan 2015 20:55:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E93B01A701F for ; Sun, 18 Jan 2015 20:55:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BRM25691; Mon, 19 Jan 2015 04:55:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML401-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.32) by lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.240) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Mon, 19 Jan 2015 04:55:39 +0000 Received: from NKGEML512-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.106]) by nkgeml401-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.32]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Mon, 19 Jan 2015 12:55:32 +0800 From: Sheng Jiang To: Brian E Carpenter , "anima@ietf.org" , "draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra@tools.ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Anima] draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra-00 Thread-Index: AQHQL5VYfKm9u50JWUGneQDk0bzlUZzG1vdw Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 04:55:30 +0000 Message-ID: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B02AAB1@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <54B5BF62.1050205@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <54B5BF62.1050205@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: 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E=Sophos;i="5.09,425,1418083200"; d="scan'208";a="114502496" Received: from rcdn-core-8.cisco.com ([173.37.93.144]) by alln-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 19 Jan 2015 08:46:15 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x02.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x02.cisco.com [173.36.12.76]) by rcdn-core-8.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t0J8kENe030066 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jan 2015 08:46:14 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com ([169.254.4.163]) by xhc-aln-x02.cisco.com ([173.36.12.76]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Mon, 19 Jan 2015 02:46:14 -0600 From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" To: Brian E Carpenter , "anima@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Anima] draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra-00 Thread-Index: AQHQL5VXL/YSCD1s9UahFYAYImzCyJzHId6A Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 08:46:13 +0000 Message-ID: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21D3C592@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> References: <54B5BF62.1050205@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <54B5BF62.1050205@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.55.238.134] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Anima] draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra-00 X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 08:46:18 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E > Carpenter > Sent: 14 January 2015 01:59 > To: anima@ietf.org > Subject: [Anima] draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra-00 >=20 > Hi, >=20 > I finally found time to go through this draft... Thanks for that Brian!=20 =20 > Is there an accessible white paper or tutorial on IEEE 802.1AR? > http://standards.ieee.org/findstds/standard/802.1AR-2009.html > is behind a paywall and not particularly helpful as an introductory > document. >=20 > 802.1AR-2009 is very specific that it applies to "IEEE 802 devices." What= are > the alternatives for other devices? I leave Max to comment here.=20 > (nit) Is the list of definitions just after Figure 1 intended to be there= , or in > section 1.1 "Terminology"? > In any case there is a dangling sentence at the end of 1.1. >=20 > (nit) Please delete the noise word "cloud" wherever it occurs. This is to some extent a question of taste ;-) Which term would you propo= se we use? Let's agree on one here before we go back and forth ;-)=20 > > Domain: The set of entities that trust a common key infrastructure > > trust anchor. >=20 > So, bootstrapping from power-off, how is the domain boundary discovered? You need to define a trust anchor (implicitly or explicitly). Devices enrol= at this trust anchor, one by one. Will be clearer in the text.=20 > Can domains overlap, merge or split? Yes.=20 =20 > > Domain CA: The domain Certification Authority (CA) optionally > > provides certification... >=20 > I don't understand the "optionally". In what scenario do devices in the > domain *not* need to rely on the CA? devices can enrol directly at a CA or through an RA. Needs to be made clear= er, I suppose. > > Orchestrator:... In simple deployments this might be a > > single administrator... >=20 > Surely in the *simplest* deployment there is no administrator? > Just plug-and-play. I think that means an extra case in section 3.3 > "Accepting New Entities". Something like auto-detection of new devices > followed by auto-registration with some sort of validation step by Joe Us= er: >=20 > ------------------------------------------------- > | A new device has been detected on the network.| > | It says "Your new refrigerator is on-line". | > | Please click [ACCEPT] within ten seconds to | > | allow the device to connect. | > ------------------------------------------------- Personally I believe that even in the simplest deployments there IS going t= o be an administrator. The text box you propose DOES require an administrat= or to click accept. Do we need to clarify what "administrator" means? To me= , a homenet user for example who pushes a button is an administrator. To yo= u?=20 >=20 > > 3.4. Operating the Network > > > > Once devices are enrolled to the domain, the network operator can > > specify a policy, or otherwise configure the devices if required. > > This is outside scope for this document. >=20 > It's worse than out of scope: it implies old-fashioned management, not > autonomic management. Personally I'd delete the section, but if you keep = it > I'd say something like this: >=20 > Once devices are enrolled to the domain, they may be managed > by traditional centralized mechanisms or by autonomic methods. > This is outside scope for this document. I don't see a strong difference between your text and ours?!?=20 I thought we agreed that autonomics will come function by function into a n= etwork. In that case (which I really thought we agreed on?) there is going= to be traditional management in parallel for a long time.=20 In any case, I'm happy with your proposed text, and will use that one.=20 > > 4.1. Behavior of a new entity > ... > > A. Search for a Proxy on the local link using Neighbor > > Discovery. >=20 > ND doesn't work for this, any more than ARP would. In the anima context, = I > would suggest GDNP (but running in an insecure mode, unfortunately). In this version of the document we didn't want to address which precise pro= tocol is to be used. As we progress with the work in ANIMA, we'll put in wh= atever we agree upon.=20 > > B. Obtain an IP address using DHCP,... >=20 > Oops. Firstly, for IPv6, the default way to get a non-link-local address = is > SLAAC; you can't assume DHCPv6 is available. An address can be obtained in several ways, you're right we need to be more= generic. But DHCP (v6) is ONE of the options.=20 > Secondly, you need an address for step A anyway. You could use a link-loc= al > address for step A, but if you get a proper address, life gets easier, be= cause > you could rely on the GDNP diversion mechanism. The intention of this section is to explain how a new device bootstraps in = various scenarios. A is implying link local only (we'll make it clearer), i= f that fails, use B, etc.=20 =20 > And at that point: you don't need a proxy, because GDNP will divert you > directly to a registrar, so you don't need DNS(SD) at all. So it all redu= ces to >=20 > Use GDNP to discover a Registrar. We believe we need to support methods where the directly attached devices d= oes not support the link local protocol. Cases B and C are meant for that. = In an existing network this will be a requirement. Will make clearer in the= text.=20 > > 3. Verify the MASA cloud service generated authorization token as > provided by the contacted Registrar. >=20 > As far as I can see, you don't state anywhere what it means to "verify" o= r > "validate" the MASA authorization token. Will add. Basically, the MASA signs the message, and that is validated.=20 > More important, how will this work for disconnected networks? > (I've had to do a factory reset of my seismology truck in the middle of t= he > desert, and the satellite link is down, so the MASA is down.) In that case, you pre-load authentication tokens at order time. Work. Will = explain in more detail.=20 =20 > To be clear, I deeply dislike the dependency on an external service. > This is a weak point both in terms of reliability (for obvious > reasons) and vulnerability, because it creates a new and very tempting > target for attackers. A suborned MASA would be a very wonderful thing: yo= u > would completely own all clients of that MASA service. The MASA is optional. It adds an important benefit: With it, we can assure = in a zero-touch environment that a new device will only join the intended n= etwork. This has tremendous value in some deployments. But as stated, it is= optional.=20 =20 > It also creates a customer-capture opportunity, which is not an IETF goal= . >=20 > Why can't registrars do their own logging? (Trivial if there's only one > registrar per domain, of course.) They can. What makes you ask that question?!?=20 Brian, THANKs for this extensive review! It shows clearly that we need to e= xplain better in quite a few places, thanks for that. Very valuable!=20 Michael > Regards > Brian Carpenter >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima From nobody Mon Jan 19 12:21:53 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF5861B2B8E for ; Mon, 19 Jan 2015 12:21:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mUwPUaM7LUOS for ; Mon, 19 Jan 2015 12:21:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x234.google.com (mail-pa0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::234]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5B58A1B2AE8 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 2015 12:21:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f52.google.com with SMTP id kx10so10178298pab.11 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 2015 12:21:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=kPO9qQ0H9sNiNaKNnAg3MtcL1NqE3ZayMWMTavfbYzY=; b=rjpvsH/vbO7TH/yj8JydbiZ5Vywj/srvLUiZVSNA7CmWIaySDdFltVQOK/Ln9/UPAj M2hwZKD2vGfURth2mh6uqk80o+nY3sY+QA5tCVr8dlZIduNAGvoPqzNwIAGmK1mJnFzn Uep5uJOsTjYnPUOdqbr70FlEEJGijtcwK1rzBJ2QD7HrsiSLxZGFwFG8O9g0UgpNmLF4 34sGwn3UD5OxIE+QPHVlkgcfvegiBO09EnZDk6VuuCBidoh1voIghINbgKYDfvhDBtiM OVij8CfnnL+ZpSvvvPgiNFJ1EDnWMZfpH7111anIRQ3+9SdgkU+R2q5Amks5xSmJeD1X vIIw== X-Received: by 10.68.132.134 with SMTP id ou6mr39074477pbb.118.1421698907563; Mon, 19 Jan 2015 12:21:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.177.175.203] ([119.17.32.194]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id c9sm12524429pdj.52.2015.01.19.12.21.44 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 19 Jan 2015 12:21:46 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <54BD675C.6000907@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2015 09:21:48 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" , "anima@ietf.org" References: <54B5BF62.1050205@gmail.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21D3C592@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21D3C592@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Anima] draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra-00 X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 20:21:52 -0000 Hi Michael, I am on a short holiday this week, so just respond below on a couple of points: On 19/01/2015 21:46, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E >> Carpenter >> Sent: 14 January 2015 01:59 >> To: anima@ietf.org >> Subject: [Anima] draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra-00 >> >> Hi, >> >> I finally found time to go through this draft... > > Thanks for that Brian! > >> Is there an accessible white paper or tutorial on IEEE 802.1AR? >> http://standards.ieee.org/findstds/standard/802.1AR-2009.html >> is behind a paywall and not particularly helpful as an introductory >> document. >> >> 802.1AR-2009 is very specific that it applies to "IEEE 802 devices." What are >> the alternatives for other devices? > > I leave Max to comment here. > >> (nit) Is the list of definitions just after Figure 1 intended to be there, or in >> section 1.1 "Terminology"? >> In any case there is a dangling sentence at the end of 1.1. >> >> (nit) Please delete the noise word "cloud" wherever it occurs. > > This is to some extent a question of taste ;-) Which term would you propose we use? Let's agree on one here before we go back and forth ;-) I believe that "cloud" is really a marketing buzzword that will vanish a few years from now. In most places it really doesn't add any information, except that something is not in the local network. So I'm serious: delete it. If the context requires it, state that the service is in the Internet. > >>> Domain: The set of entities that trust a common key infrastructure >>> trust anchor. >> >> So, bootstrapping from power-off, how is the domain boundary discovered? > > You need to define a trust anchor (implicitly or explicitly). Devices enrol at this trust anchor, one by one. Will be clearer in the text. > >> Can domains overlap, merge or split? > > Yes. > >>> Domain CA: The domain Certification Authority (CA) optionally >>> provides certification... >> >> I don't understand the "optionally". In what scenario do devices in the >> domain *not* need to rely on the CA? > > devices can enrol directly at a CA or through an RA. Needs to be made clearer, I suppose. > >>> Orchestrator:... In simple deployments this might be a >>> single administrator... >> >> Surely in the *simplest* deployment there is no administrator? >> Just plug-and-play. I think that means an extra case in section 3.3 >> "Accepting New Entities". Something like auto-detection of new devices >> followed by auto-registration with some sort of validation step by Joe User: >> >> ------------------------------------------------- >> | A new device has been detected on the network.| >> | It says "Your new refrigerator is on-line". | >> | Please click [ACCEPT] within ten seconds to | >> | allow the device to connect. | >> ------------------------------------------------- > > Personally I believe that even in the simplest deployments there IS going to be an administrator. The text box you propose DOES require an administrator to click accept. Do we need to clarify what "administrator" means? To me, a homenet user for example who pushes a button is an administrator. To you? Sure, but they are completely untrained. So they can only do very simple things. So I think it's a third category, and the draft only really describes two categories. > >> >>> 3.4. Operating the Network >>> >>> Once devices are enrolled to the domain, the network operator can >>> specify a policy, or otherwise configure the devices if required. >>> This is outside scope for this document. >> >> It's worse than out of scope: it implies old-fashioned management, not >> autonomic management. Personally I'd delete the section, but if you keep it >> I'd say something like this: >> >> Once devices are enrolled to the domain, they may be managed >> by traditional centralized mechanisms or by autonomic methods. >> This is outside scope for this document. > > I don't see a strong difference between your text and ours?!? Mine adds "autonomic". Rgds Brian > > I thought we agreed that autonomics will come function by function into a network. In that case (which I really thought we agreed on?) there is going to be traditional management in parallel for a long time. > > In any case, I'm happy with your proposed text, and will use that one. > >>> 4.1. Behavior of a new entity >> ... >>> A. Search for a Proxy on the local link using Neighbor >>> Discovery. >> >> ND doesn't work for this, any more than ARP would. In the anima context, I >> would suggest GDNP (but running in an insecure mode, unfortunately). > > In this version of the document we didn't want to address which precise protocol is to be used. As we progress with the work in ANIMA, we'll put in whatever we agree upon. > >>> B. Obtain an IP address using DHCP,... >> >> Oops. Firstly, for IPv6, the default way to get a non-link-local address is >> SLAAC; you can't assume DHCPv6 is available. > > An address can be obtained in several ways, you're right we need to be more generic. But DHCP (v6) is ONE of the options. > >> Secondly, you need an address for step A anyway. You could use a link-local >> address for step A, but if you get a proper address, life gets easier, because >> you could rely on the GDNP diversion mechanism. > > The intention of this section is to explain how a new device bootstraps in various scenarios. A is implying link local only (we'll make it clearer), if that fails, use B, etc. > >> And at that point: you don't need a proxy, because GDNP will divert you >> directly to a registrar, so you don't need DNS(SD) at all. So it all reduces to >> >> Use GDNP to discover a Registrar. > > We believe we need to support methods where the directly attached devices does not support the link local protocol. Cases B and C are meant for that. In an existing network this will be a requirement. Will make clearer in the text. > >>> 3. Verify the MASA cloud service generated authorization token as >> provided by the contacted Registrar. >> >> As far as I can see, you don't state anywhere what it means to "verify" or >> "validate" the MASA authorization token. > > Will add. Basically, the MASA signs the message, and that is validated. > >> More important, how will this work for disconnected networks? >> (I've had to do a factory reset of my seismology truck in the middle of the >> desert, and the satellite link is down, so the MASA is down.) > > In that case, you pre-load authentication tokens at order time. Work. Will explain in more detail. > >> To be clear, I deeply dislike the dependency on an external service. >> This is a weak point both in terms of reliability (for obvious >> reasons) and vulnerability, because it creates a new and very tempting >> target for attackers. A suborned MASA would be a very wonderful thing: you >> would completely own all clients of that MASA service. > > The MASA is optional. It adds an important benefit: With it, we can assure in a zero-touch environment that a new device will only join the intended network. This has tremendous value in some deployments. But as stated, it is optional. > >> It also creates a customer-capture opportunity, which is not an IETF goal. >> >> Why can't registrars do their own logging? (Trivial if there's only one >> registrar per domain, of course.) > > They can. What makes you ask that question?!? > > Brian, THANKs for this extensive review! It shows clearly that we need to explain better in quite a few places, thanks for that. Very valuable! > > Michael > > >> Regards >> Brian Carpenter >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Anima mailing list >> Anima@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > From nobody Fri Jan 23 00:11:45 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AACAD1A1A9C for ; Fri, 23 Jan 2015 00:11:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -13.005 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-13.005 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, SUBJ_ALL_CAPS=1.506, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SDpUK9GGYYCE for ; Fri, 23 Jan 2015 00:11:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-6.cisco.com (alln-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.142.93]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 15C621A903F for ; Fri, 23 Jan 2015 00:11:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2194; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1422000699; x=1423210299; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=2Buxeaalf7Q4MyCvCeCOWhfXIzUfRoNsRV9ejkWRpJ0=; b=KMfp22X7xXxpqfcDlz3+c5151pwDI0Ux8tK1PiGBKfLTuPbTv/1sul9q RwS+gNc1MSKUlRX35jyE1mj3TPrNLVcEV2ZV8YkV5OM20CPC60pQDY026 utg6iR+Y6TEN5Etmti8fn5Xil6K4AjCtUQUys+ICjkXIAUz88ZE2Y6OBE 8=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ag4IAJwBwlStJA2H/2dsb2JhbABagwZSWATEJIIbCoVxAoESQwEBAQEBaRSEDAEBAQQBAQE3NAsMBAIBCBEEAQELFAkHJwsUCQgBAQQBDQUIiCQN0nkBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQETBI9HMQcGgxCBEwEEhT+JJ4otgn6OIyKDbm+BRX4BAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.09,453,1418083200"; d="scan'208";a="116862298" Received: from alln-core-2.cisco.com ([173.36.13.135]) by alln-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 23 Jan 2015 08:11:38 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x01.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x01.cisco.com [173.36.12.75]) by alln-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t0N8Bcd3022681 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jan 2015 08:11:38 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com ([169.254.4.163]) by xhc-aln-x01.cisco.com ([173.36.12.75]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Fri, 23 Jan 2015 02:11:37 -0600 From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" To: Sheng Jiang , "anima@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: ANIMA @ IETF92 Thread-Index: AdAwhhb9BeESyDn9TF+vFqDvToN1VwGXarqw Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2015 08:11:37 +0000 Message-ID: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21D419B7@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B00902E@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B00902E@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.55.238.134] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA @ IETF92 X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2015 08:11:44 -0000 Sheng,=20 I think we should also have draft-behringer-anima-reference-model on the pr= esentation list, since that is the next milestone; I'll be working on a new= version before the IETF.=20 Michael > -----Original Message----- > From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Sheng Jiang > Sent: 15 January 2015 06:45 > To: anima@ietf.org > Cc: anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org > Subject: [Anima] ANIMA @ IETF92 >=20 > Hi, all, >=20 > We are certainly to meet in IETF92. But we are not sure how long the sess= ion > or sessions should be. So please reply to the chairs by Jan. 20th if you = want > to make presentations in the coming ANIMA meeting. This is not an officia= l > request agenda yet. The chairs just need some additional information to > decide the session time, particularly for these newly emerging works or > works in progress. By default, we have already included GDNP, also DNCP > from homenet, ACP and bootstrapping-keyinfra in the schedule because > they are prior milestone-oriented works. So the authors of these four dra= fts > do not need to reply. >=20 > Again, as a emphasis, the ANIMA WG is open for topics/drafts that are > relevant to autonomic networking. Beside the current milestones, other > autonomic infrastructure components, policy intents, use cases or > autonomic service agents are strongly encouraged, as individual > submissions. They could be discussed as potential recharter contents in t= he > future. >=20 > The conflict list is as follows: > First Priority: homenet netconf v6ops dhc nmrg > Second Priority: 6man opsarea irtfopen >=20 > We will also request a Meetecho support in the room in case anyone is > remote / need to present remotely. >=20 > We will send out a request for agenda items later next week. >=20 > Best regards, >=20 > Sheng and Toerless >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF ANIMA working group mailing list > anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima From nobody Sun Jan 25 17:11:17 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 875A41A1B65 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 17:11:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.705 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.705 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, SUBJ_ALL_CAPS=1.506, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PM0OW2k_39uN for ; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 17:11:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C7A701A1B56 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 17:11:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BRS55136; Mon, 26 Jan 2015 01:11:11 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.38) by lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Mon, 26 Jan 2015 01:11:10 +0000 Received: from NKGEML512-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.106]) by nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.38]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Mon, 26 Jan 2015 09:11:02 +0800 From: Sheng Jiang To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" , "anima@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: ANIMA @ IETF92 Thread-Index: AdAwhhb9BeESyDn9TF+vFqDvToN1VwGXarqwAIg7wbA= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2015 01:11:01 +0000 Message-ID: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B0416F0@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B00902E@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21D419B7@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21D419B7@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.99.197] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Anima] ANIMA @ IETF92 X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2015 01:11:15 -0000 SGksIE1pY2hhZWwsDQoNCllvdSBjYW4gY2VydGFpbmx5IGFwcGx5IHRpbWUgc2xvdCBmb3IgcmVm ZXJlbmNlLW1vZGVsIHdoZW4gd2Ugb2ZmaWNpYWxseSBjYWxsIGZvciBhZ2VuZGEuDQoNCkJlc3Qg cmVnYXJkcywNCg0KU2hlbmcNCg0KPi0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQo+RnJvbTog TWljaGFlbCBCZWhyaW5nZXIgKG1iZWhyaW5nKSBbbWFpbHRvOm1iZWhyaW5nQGNpc2NvLmNvbV0N Cj5TZW50OiBGcmlkYXksIEphbnVhcnkgMjMsIDIwMTUgNDoxMiBQTQ0KPlRvOiBTaGVuZyBKaWFu ZzsgYW5pbWFAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj5DYzogYW5pbWEtY2hhaXJzQHRvb2xzLmlldGYub3JnDQo+U3Vi amVjdDogUkU6IEFOSU1BIEAgSUVURjkyDQo+DQo+U2hlbmcsDQo+DQo+SSB0aGluayB3ZSBzaG91 bGQgYWxzbyBoYXZlIGRyYWZ0LWJlaHJpbmdlci1hbmltYS1yZWZlcmVuY2UtbW9kZWwgb24gdGhl DQo+cHJlc2VudGF0aW9uIGxpc3QsIHNpbmNlIHRoYXQgaXMgdGhlIG5leHQgbWlsZXN0b25lOyBJ J2xsIGJlIHdvcmtpbmcgb24gYSBuZXcNCj52ZXJzaW9uIGJlZm9yZSB0aGUgSUVURi4NCj4NCj5N aWNoYWVsDQo+DQo+DQo+PiAtLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KPj4gRnJvbTogQW5p bWEgW21haWx0bzphbmltYS1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSBPbiBCZWhhbGYgT2YgU2hlbmcgSmlh bmcNCj4+IFNlbnQ6IDE1IEphbnVhcnkgMjAxNSAwNjo0NQ0KPj4gVG86IGFuaW1hQGlldGYub3Jn DQo+PiBDYzogYW5pbWEtY2hhaXJzQHRvb2xzLmlldGYub3JnDQo+PiBTdWJqZWN0OiBbQW5pbWFd IEFOSU1BIEAgSUVURjkyDQo+Pg0KPj4gSGksIGFsbCwNCj4+DQo+PiBXZSBhcmUgY2VydGFpbmx5 IHRvIG1lZXQgaW4gSUVURjkyLiBCdXQgd2UgYXJlIG5vdCBzdXJlIGhvdyBsb25nIHRoZQ0KPnNl c3Npb24NCj4+IG9yIHNlc3Npb25zIHNob3VsZCBiZS4gU28gcGxlYXNlIHJlcGx5IHRvIHRoZSBj aGFpcnMgYnkgSmFuLiAyMHRoIGlmIHlvdSB3YW50DQo+PiB0byBtYWtlIHByZXNlbnRhdGlvbnMg aW4gdGhlIGNvbWluZyBBTklNQSBtZWV0aW5nLiBUaGlzIGlzIG5vdCBhbiBvZmZpY2lhbA0KPj4g cmVxdWVzdCBhZ2VuZGEgeWV0LiBUaGUgY2hhaXJzIGp1c3QgbmVlZCBzb21lIGFkZGl0aW9uYWwg aW5mb3JtYXRpb24gdG8NCj4+IGRlY2lkZSB0aGUgc2Vzc2lvbiB0aW1lLCBwYXJ0aWN1bGFybHkg Zm9yIHRoZXNlIG5ld2x5IGVtZXJnaW5nIHdvcmtzIG9yDQo+PiB3b3JrcyBpbiBwcm9ncmVzcy4g QnkgZGVmYXVsdCwgd2UgaGF2ZSBhbHJlYWR5IGluY2x1ZGVkIEdETlAsIGFsc28gRE5DUA0KPj4g ZnJvbSBob21lbmV0LCBBQ1AgYW5kIGJvb3RzdHJhcHBpbmcta2V5aW5mcmEgaW4gdGhlIHNjaGVk dWxlIGJlY2F1c2UNCj4+IHRoZXkgYXJlIHByaW9yIG1pbGVzdG9uZS1vcmllbnRlZCB3b3Jrcy4g U28gdGhlIGF1dGhvcnMgb2YgdGhlc2UgZm91ciBkcmFmdHMNCj4+IGRvIG5vdCBuZWVkIHRvIHJl cGx5Lg0KPj4NCj4+IEFnYWluLCBhcyBhIGVtcGhhc2lzLCB0aGUgQU5JTUEgV0cgaXMgb3BlbiBm b3IgdG9waWNzL2RyYWZ0cyB0aGF0IGFyZQ0KPj4gcmVsZXZhbnQgdG8gYXV0b25vbWljIG5ldHdv cmtpbmcuIEJlc2lkZSB0aGUgY3VycmVudCBtaWxlc3RvbmVzLCBvdGhlcg0KPj4gYXV0b25vbWlj IGluZnJhc3RydWN0dXJlIGNvbXBvbmVudHMsIHBvbGljeSBpbnRlbnRzLCB1c2UgY2FzZXMgb3IN Cj4+IGF1dG9ub21pYyBzZXJ2aWNlIGFnZW50cyBhcmUgc3Ryb25nbHkgZW5jb3VyYWdlZCwgYXMg aW5kaXZpZHVhbA0KPj4gc3VibWlzc2lvbnMuIFRoZXkgY291bGQgYmUgZGlzY3Vzc2VkIGFzIHBv dGVudGlhbCByZWNoYXJ0ZXIgY29udGVudHMgaW4gdGhlDQo+PiBmdXR1cmUuDQo+Pg0KPj4gVGhl IGNvbmZsaWN0IGxpc3QgaXMgYXMgZm9sbG93czoNCj4+ICBGaXJzdCBQcmlvcml0eToJaG9tZW5l dCBuZXRjb25mIHY2b3BzIGRoYyBubXJnDQo+PiAgU2Vjb25kIFByaW9yaXR5OiA2bWFuIG9wc2Fy ZWEgaXJ0Zm9wZW4NCj4+DQo+PiBXZSB3aWxsIGFsc28gcmVxdWVzdCBhIE1lZXRlY2hvIHN1cHBv cnQgaW4gdGhlIHJvb20gaW4gY2FzZSBhbnlvbmUgaXMNCj4+IHJlbW90ZSAvIG5lZWQgdG8gcHJl c2VudCByZW1vdGVseS4NCj4+DQo+PiBXZSB3aWxsIHNlbmQgb3V0IGEgcmVxdWVzdCBmb3IgYWdl bmRhIGl0ZW1zIGxhdGVyIG5leHQgd2Vlay4NCj4+DQo+PiBCZXN0IHJlZ2FyZHMsDQo+Pg0KPj4g U2hlbmcgYW5kIFRvZXJsZXNzDQo+Pg0KPj4gLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0NCj4+IElFVEYgQU5JTUEgd29y a2luZyBncm91cCBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4+IGFuaW1hQGlldGYub3JnDQo+PiBodHRwczovL3d3 dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2FuaW1hDQo+PiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPj4gQW5pbWEgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+PiBB bmltYUBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9h bmltYQ0K From nobody Mon Jan 26 16:56:40 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 725A31B2B56 for ; 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([2001:df0:0:2006:c0da:ac17:5f6d:8e76]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id pm2sm10786530pbb.81.2015.01.26.16.56.24 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 26 Jan 2015 16:56:25 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <54C6E23A.2040209@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 13:56:26 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: anima@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Anima] GDNP open issues (draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01) X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 00:56:35 -0000 Hi, We'd like to get a sense of where to focus discussion leading up to Dallas. There are a lot of open issues in the -01 draft. Below I've extracted (and shortened) some that seem most important to me personally. I've re-ordered them a bit too. Please send feedback (maybe set the Subject of your message accordingly). Of course this list is not exclusive, and comments on any aspect of the draft are welcome. o DTLS or TLS vs built-in security mechanism. The current approach requires expensive asymmetric cryptographic calculations for every message. (D)TLS has startup overheads but cheaper crypto per message. o We mention convergence mechanisms and mechanisms to avoid loop dependencies. These issues need more work. o Is it reasonable to consider that a Discovery Objective is really just a set of specific Negotiation and/or Synchronization Objectives? o Would a DISCOVERY(ANY) mechanism be useful during bootstrapping? o Would it be reasonable to allow an unsolicited Response message with Discovery Objective content, to speed up discovery during bootstrapping? o Should we consider a distributed or centralised DNS-like approach to discovery (after the initial discovery needed for bootstrapping)? o DoS Attack Protection needs work. Ideas welcome. o Alternatives to TLV format. It may be useful to provide a method of carrying negotiation/synch objectives in pre-existing formats. o UDP vs TCP: If messages exceed a reasonable MTU, a TCP mode may be necessary. Regards, Brian From nobody Mon Jan 26 20:03:16 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 894C71B2B0D for ; Mon, 26 Jan 2015 20:03:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6NWqmRnxG9jF for ; Mon, 26 Jan 2015 20:03:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x230.google.com (mail-pa0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2017A1A1BCD for ; Mon, 26 Jan 2015 20:03:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f48.google.com with SMTP id ey11so15797905pad.7 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 2015 20:03:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=1qEacmMB3oY/CAWTn5lmfRSCNVgPd02cmGD/OUDG09I=; b=RRPziGLXUuGTULuk4sJm9k5K0QojU4Rm2+LRE4KQMjPEY2ONsomPreZvSCI+oAZbcT 8l1y3Fbl9L6Q1PfHYzQL37qayJsE8XWnxJmm2qBWYTPh/ME9ALETUGJg6DZmE+pCR3iz J0pI1uJGt5VvVoaTCCPHB7pDOEJpNlTCMyefq3/CEv59xtuX12GKykGtZHHaFpUuct0u reciFxEjW/vVCgpn2V+r4DWDUy/Udt3W+hmfIau7+0GqqsbBZT1TSyM8GFZREisb9azr WnQDGZzQa6DiZNZ3lucIqSKlnc7zePmlhqE9QPmdAuVkAbEdW2d1WIdzZTIcWH7ybu1s KkFg== X-Received: by 10.66.162.41 with SMTP id xx9mr27206958pab.68.1422331386291; Mon, 26 Jan 2015 20:03:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:73ff:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:73ff:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id pg6sm11040613pbb.96.2015.01.26.20.03.01 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 26 Jan 2015 20:03:03 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <54C70DF7.8000806@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 17:03:03 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" , "anima@ietf.org" References: <54B5BF62.1050205@gmail.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21D3C592@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21D3C592@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Anima] draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra-00 X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 04:03:13 -0000 Back from holiday... Actually apart from the points I mentioned in my previous message, I'm happy with your explanations, Michael, except: > The MASA is optional That's good but I absolutely didn't pick it up while reading the text. I think it needs to be stated more clearly and maybe indicated in the diagram. Brian From nobody Mon Jan 26 22:15:46 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B007F1A1BE8 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 2015 22:15:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2oxhHxhI80Sm for ; Mon, 26 Jan 2015 22:15:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8086E1A008C for ; Mon, 26 Jan 2015 22:15:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BOL62989; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 06:15:38 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.35) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 06:15:37 +0000 Received: from NKGEML512-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.106]) by nkgeml404-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.35]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 14:15:32 +0800 From: Sheng Jiang To: Brian E Carpenter , "anima@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: UDP vs TCP was//RE:[Anima] GDNP open issues (draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01) Thread-Index: AQHQOcwfJCsnljNkckaMbYoRq0Qd/pzTdTFw Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 06:15:31 +0000 Message-ID: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B0425E3@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <54C6E23A.2040209@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <54C6E23A.2040209@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.99.197] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Anima] UDP vs TCP was//RE: GDNP open issues (draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01) X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 06:15:43 -0000 PiAgbyAgVURQIHZzIFRDUDogSWYgbWVzc2FnZXMgZXhjZWVkIGEgcmVhc29uYWJsZSBNVFUsIGEg VENQIG1vZGUNCj4gICAgIG1heSBiZSBuZWNlc3NhcnkuDQoNCkZvciBtZSwgZGlzY292ZXJ5IHNo b3VsZCBiZSBVRFAgZ2l2aW5nIHRoZSBmYWN0IHRoYXQgbW9zdCBvZiBtZXNzYWdlIGV4Y2hhbmdp bmcgd291bGQgYmUgdmVyeSBzaG9ydC4gSSBhbSBub3Qgc3VyZSBhYm91dCBzeW5jaHJvbml6YXRp b24gYW5kIG5lZ290aWF0aW9uLiBUQ1AgaXMgY2VydGFpbmx5IG1vcmUgcmVsaWFibGUsIGJ1dCBp dCByZXF1ZXN0cyBtb3JlIGNvbXBsaWNhdGVkIGhhbmRzaGFrZSBiZWZvcmUgdGhlIHBlZXJzIGNh biBhY3R1YWxseSBleGNoYW5nZSBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbi4gT25lIG1vcmUgY29uc2lkZXJhdGlvbiBp cyB0byBtaXggVURQL1RDUCBpbnRvIGEgc2luZ2xlIHByb3RvY29sIGRlc2lnbiBtYXkgYmUgY3Jl YXRpbmcgdW5uZWNlc3NhcnkgY29tcGxleGl0eSBhbmQgY29uZnVzaW9uLiBBbHNvLCByYXBpZCBk aXNjb3ZlcnkgcHJvY2VzcyBpcyBhY3R1YWxseSBkb2luZyBwYXJ0IG9mIG5lZ290aWF0aW9uLiBJ dCBtYXkgbm90IGJlIGFibGUgdG8gc2VwYXJhdGUgdGhlc2UgcHJvY2VzcyB0b3RhbGx5Lg0KDQpJ ZiB3ZSBjb25zaWRlciBzZWN1cml0eS9hdXRoZW50aWNhdGlvbiBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBpbiB0aGUg bWVzc2FnZXMsIGl0IGlzIHBvc3NpYmxlIHRvIGV4Y2VlZCBNVFUuIEJ1dCB3aHkgdGhpcyBpcyBu ZWNlc3NhcnkgZm9yIGNob29zaW5nIFRDUD8gVURQIG1lc3NhZ2VzIGNhbiBhbHNvIGJlIGZyYWdt ZW50ZWQuDQoNCkJlc3QgcmVnYXJkcywNCg0KU2hlbmcNCg0KPlJlZ2FyZHMsDQo+ICAgIEJyaWFu DQo+DQo+X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj5B bmltYSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj5BbmltYUBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3Jn L21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vYW5pbWENCg== From nobody Mon Jan 26 22:28:27 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78ACE1B2BAC for ; 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Mon, 26 Jan 2015 23:03:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lPg4TZxQiUgy for ; Mon, 26 Jan 2015 23:03:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DD9771A1BDB for ; Mon, 26 Jan 2015 23:03:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml406-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BRT84310; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 07:03:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.35) by lhreml406-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.243) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 07:03:41 +0000 Received: from NKGEML512-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.106]) by nkgeml404-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.35]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 15:03:30 +0800 From: Sheng Jiang To: Brian E Carpenter , "anima@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: DISCOVERY(ANY) mechanism was: RE: [Anima] GDNP open issues (draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01) Thread-Index: AQHQOcwfJCsnljNkckaMbYoRq0Qd/pzTgZGg Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 07:03:29 +0000 Message-ID: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B042698@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <54C6E23A.2040209@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <54C6E23A.2040209@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.99.197] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: Duzongpeng Subject: [Anima] DISCOVERY(ANY) mechanism was: RE: GDNP open issues (draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01) X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 07:03:47 -0000 PiAgbyAgV291bGQgYSBESVNDT1ZFUlkoQU5ZKSBtZWNoYW5pc20gYmUgdXNlZnVsIGR1cmluZyBi b290c3RyYXBwaW5nPw0KDQpUaGlzIGRlcGVuZHMgb24gYSkgaG93IG1hbnkgYXJlIEFOWSwgYikg aG93IG1hbnkgY291bnRlcnBhcnQgbWF5IGJlIGRpc2NvdmVyZWQuDQoNCklmIEFOWSBpcyBsZXNz IHRoYW4gdHdlbnR5IG9yIHRoaXJ0eSwgaXQgbWF5IG5vdCBiZSBhIHZlcnkgYmlnIGltcGFjdC4g QnV0IGlmIEFOWSBpcyBtb3JlIHRoYW4gYSBodW5kcmVkLCBpdCBtYXkgYmUgdG9vIG11Y2ggZm9y IGJvdGggdGhlIGF1dG9ub21pYyBuZXR3b3JrIGFuZCB0aGUgaW5pdGlhdGVkIG5vZGUuIE15IGd1 ZXNzIGlzIHdlIGNvdWxkIG5vdCBsaW1pdCBob3cgbWFueSBvYmplY3RpdmVzIG1heSBiZSBkZXZl bG9wZWQgaW4gdGhlIGZ1dHVyZS4NCg0KVGhlIGluaXRpYXRlZCBtYXkgbm90IGJlIGFibGUgdG8g Y29udHJvbCBob3cgbWFueSBjb3VudGVycGFydCB0byBiZSBkaXNjb3ZlcmVkLiBJZiB0aGUgYXV0 b25vbWljIG5ldHdvcmsgaXRzZWxmIGlzIGEgbGFyZ2Utc2NhbGUgbmV0d29yaywgc3VjaCBkaXNj b3ZlcnkgKEFOWSkgbWF5IGhhdmUgbWVzc2FnZSBidXN0IGlzc3VlLiBIb3dldmVyLCB0aGlzIG1h eSBub3QgYmUgYSBiaWcgaXNzdWUsIGlmIHRoZXJlIGFyZSBhdXRvbm9taWMgcGFydGl0aW9uIG1l Y2hhbmlzbXMgaW4gc3VjaCBsYXJnZSBzY2FsZSBhdXRvbm9taWMgbmV0d29yay4NCg0KQmVzdCBy ZWdhcmRzLA0KDQpTaGVuZw0KDQo+UmVnYXJkcywNCj4gICAgQnJpYW4NCj4NCj5fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPkFuaW1hIG1haWxpbmcgbGlz dA0KPkFuaW1hQGlldGYub3JnDQo+aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5m by9hbmltYQ0K From nobody Mon Jan 26 23:22:17 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 038D01B2AE3 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 2015 23:22:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.121 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.121 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2wns0nIPYlxx for ; Mon, 26 Jan 2015 23:22:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from jenni2.inet.fi (mta-out1.inet.fi [62.71.2.195]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4BE81A1BFF for ; Mon, 26 Jan 2015 23:22:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from kosame.lan (80.220.64.126) by jenni2.inet.fi (8.5.142.08) (authenticated as stenma-47) id 54BEDAE800B005DF; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 09:17:03 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.1 \(1993\)) From: Markus Stenberg In-Reply-To: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B0425E3@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 09:16:57 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2A609DE3-46F1-4619-809A-8675D4ADD198@iki.fi> References: <54C6E23A.2040209@gmail.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B0425E3@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> To: Sheng Jiang X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1993) Archived-At: Cc: Markus Stenberg , "anima@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Anima] UDP vs TCP was//RE: GDNP open issues (draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01) X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 07:22:15 -0000 On 27.1.2015, at 8.15, Sheng Jiang wrote: >> o UDP vs TCP: If messages exceed a reasonable MTU, a TCP mode >> may be necessary. > For me, discovery should be UDP giving the fact that most of message = exchanging would be very short. I am not sure about synchronization and = negotiation. TCP is certainly more reliable, but it requests more = complicated handshake before the peers can actually exchange = information. One more consideration is to mix UDP/TCP into a single = protocol design may be creating unnecessary complexity and confusion. = Also, rapid discovery process is actually doing part of negotiation. It = may not be able to separate these process totally. Discovery (assuming you want to do multicast) has to be UDP. It depends on traffic amounts I guess; TCP does give you lots of things = relatively for free, and e.g. implementation-wise TLS is more mature and = common than DTLS. If you guess >MTU sized traffic is the norm, I would = go with TCP for heavy lifting anyway (see below). > If we consider security/authentication information in the messages, it = is possible to exceed MTU. But why this is necessary for choosing TCP? = UDP messages can also be fragmented. If you cross hops or admin boundaries, you will potentially run at =E2=80=98= we eat UDP fragments=E2=80=99 firewalls like the IKE people did. There = is now =E2=80=98we do our own fragmentation=E2=80=99 IKE draft/RFC (I = cannot remember the status). Given nodes on the path that eat ICMP PMTU = messages, you wind up having to send things at minimum MTU UDP if you = want to make sure they make it. And that=E2=80=99s ugly.=20 Cheers, -Markus= From nobody Mon Jan 26 23:30:14 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6547A1A700E for ; Mon, 26 Jan 2015 23:30:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vn1YbUFZqNQb for ; Mon, 26 Jan 2015 23:30:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.86.79]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CDF3E1A88E2 for ; 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Tue, 27 Jan 2015 07:30:01 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com ([169.254.4.163]) by xhc-rcd-x15.cisco.com ([173.37.183.89]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 01:30:01 -0600 From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" To: Brian E Carpenter , "anima@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Anima] draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra-00 Thread-Index: AQHQL5VXL/YSCD1s9UahFYAYImzCyJzHId6AgAyv14D//9Q68A== Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 07:30:00 +0000 Message-ID: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21D451DA@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> References: <54B5BF62.1050205@gmail.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21D3C592@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <54C70DF7.8000806@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <54C70DF7.8000806@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.61.196.170] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Anima] draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra-00 X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 07:30:13 -0000 PiA+IFRoZSBNQVNBIGlzIG9wdGlvbmFsDQo+IA0KPiBUaGF0J3MgZ29vZCBidXQgSSBhYnNvbHV0 ZWx5IGRpZG4ndCBwaWNrIGl0IHVwIHdoaWxlIHJlYWRpbmcgdGhlIHRleHQuIEkgdGhpbmsgaXQN Cj4gbmVlZHMgdG8gYmUgc3RhdGVkIG1vcmUgY2xlYXJseSBhbmQgbWF5YmUgaW5kaWNhdGVkIGlu IHRoZSBkaWFncmFtLg0KDQpZZXMsIHRoaXMgaXMgZGlmZmljdWx0LiBJbiB0aGUgb3ZlcmFsbCBh cHByb2FjaCB0aGVyZSBhcmUgbWFueSBkZXNpZ24gb3B0aW9ucywgYW5kIHRoZSBudW1iZXIgb2Yg b3B0aW9ucyBhY3R1YWxseSBtYWtlIHRoZSB3aG9sZSBkb2N1bWVudCBjb25mdXNpbmcgdG8gcmVh ZC4gV2UgaGFkIG1hbnkgYmFja3MgYW5kIGZvcnRocyBvbiBob3cgdG8gZGVhbCB3aXRoIGFsbCB0 aGUgb3B0aW9ucy4gU28gd2hhdCB3ZSBkZWNpZGVkIGluIHRoZSBlbmQgd2FzIHRvIGRvIHdhcyB0 byBkb2N1bWVudCB0aGUgIm9wdGltYWwiIGNhc2UgKGluIHRlcm1zIG9mIHNlY3VyaXR5KSBmaXJz dCwgYW5kIFRIRU4gZG9jdW1lbnQgYSBsaXN0IG9mICJpZiB5b3UgY2FuJ3QgZG8geCBvciBkb24n dCBoYXZlIHksIHRoZSBpbXBhY3QgaXMgeiIuIA0KDQpJIHN0aWxsIHRoaW5rIHRoaXMgaXMgcHJv YmFibHkgdGhlIHJpZ2h0IGFwcHJvYWNoLCBidXQgKG9idmlvdXNseSkgd2UgbmVlZCB0byBleHBs YWluIHRoYXQgYmV0dGVyLiANCg0KV291bGQgeW91IGFncmVlIHdpdGggdGhpcyBhcHByb2FjaD8g DQoNCk1pY2hhZWwNCg0K From nobody Mon Jan 26 23:44:12 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A4C91B2BB3 for ; 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Tue, 27 Jan 2015 07:44:06 +0000 Received: from NKGEML512-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.106]) by nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.38]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 15:43:59 +0800 From: Sheng Jiang To: Markus Stenberg Thread-Topic: [Anima] UDP vs TCP was//RE: GDNP open issues (draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01) Thread-Index: AQHQOgH6iGOgN+0Cv0+4Ywwbk5VLOZzTkUNg Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 07:43:59 +0000 Message-ID: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B042795@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <54C6E23A.2040209@gmail.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B0425E3@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <2A609DE3-46F1-4619-809A-8675D4ADD198@iki.fi> In-Reply-To: <2A609DE3-46F1-4619-809A-8675D4ADD198@iki.fi> Accept-Language: en-GB, zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.99.197] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: "anima@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Anima] UDP vs TCP was//RE: GDNP open issues (draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01) X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 07:44:10 -0000 Pj4+IG8gIFVEUCB2cyBUQ1A6IElmIG1lc3NhZ2VzIGV4Y2VlZCBhIHJlYXNvbmFibGUgTVRVLCBh IFRDUCBtb2RlDQo+Pj4gICAgbWF5IGJlIG5lY2Vzc2FyeS4NCj4+IEZvciBtZSwgZGlzY292ZXJ5 IHNob3VsZCBiZSBVRFAgZ2l2aW5nIHRoZSBmYWN0IHRoYXQgbW9zdCBvZiBtZXNzYWdlDQo+PmV4 Y2hhbmdpbmcgd291bGQgYmUgdmVyeSBzaG9ydC4gSSBhbSBub3Qgc3VyZSBhYm91dCBzeW5jaHJv bml6YXRpb24gYW5kDQo+Pm5lZ290aWF0aW9uLiBUQ1AgaXMgY2VydGFpbmx5IG1vcmUgcmVsaWFi bGUsIGJ1dCBpdCByZXF1ZXN0cyBtb3JlIGNvbXBsaWNhdGVkDQo+PmhhbmRzaGFrZSBiZWZvcmUg dGhlIHBlZXJzIGNhbiBhY3R1YWxseSBleGNoYW5nZSBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbi4gT25lIG1vcmUNCj4+ Y29uc2lkZXJhdGlvbiBpcyB0byBtaXggVURQL1RDUCBpbnRvIGEgc2luZ2xlIHByb3RvY29sIGRl c2lnbiBtYXkgYmUgY3JlYXRpbmcNCj4+dW5uZWNlc3NhcnkgY29tcGxleGl0eSBhbmQgY29uZnVz aW9uLiBBbHNvLCByYXBpZCBkaXNjb3ZlcnkgcHJvY2VzcyBpcw0KPj5hY3R1YWxseSBkb2luZyBw YXJ0IG9mIG5lZ290aWF0aW9uLiBJdCBtYXkgbm90IGJlIGFibGUgdG8gc2VwYXJhdGUgdGhlc2UN Cj4+cHJvY2VzcyB0b3RhbGx5Lg0KPg0KPkRpc2NvdmVyeSAoYXNzdW1pbmcgeW91IHdhbnQgdG8g ZG8gbXVsdGljYXN0KSBoYXMgdG8gYmUgVURQLg0KDQpBZ3JlZS4gRGlzY292ZXJ5IG1lYW5zIHVu a25vd24gcmVjaXBpZW50cy4gU28gbXVsdGljYXN0IGlzIG5lY2Vzc2FyeS4NCg0KPkl0IGRlcGVu ZHMgb24gdHJhZmZpYyBhbW91bnRzIEkgZ3Vlc3M7DQoNCkRpc2NvdmVyeSBzaG91bGQgYmUgYSBz ZXQgb2Ygc2hvcnQgY29tbXVuaWNhdGlvbnMsIHdoaWNoIG9mIHRoZW0gaGF2ZSBvbmx5IG9uZSBv ciB0d28gbWVzc2FnZS4gU28gVURQIGxvb2tzIGJldHRlci4NCg0KU3luY2hyb25pemF0aW9uIGlz IGFsc28gYSBzZXQgb2Ygc2hvcnQgY29tbXVuaWNhdGlvbnMsIGJ1dCBiZXR3ZWVuIGNlcnRhaW4g cGFpcnMuIFNvIFVEUCBvciBsb25nLWxpdmUgVENQIHNlc3Npb24gY291bGQgd29yay4NCg0KTmVn b3RpYXRpb24gbWF5IGJlIGxvbmdlciBjb21tdW5pY2F0aW9ucy4gVENQIG1heSBiZSBiZXR0ZXIu DQoNCj5UQ1AgZG9lcyBnaXZlIHlvdSBsb3RzIG9mIHRoaW5ncw0KPnJlbGF0aXZlbHkgZm9yIGZy ZWUsIGFuZCBlLmcuIGltcGxlbWVudGF0aW9uLXdpc2UgVExTIGlzIG1vcmUgbWF0dXJlIGFuZA0K PmNvbW1vbiB0aGFuIERUTFMuIElmIHlvdSBndWVzcyA+TVRVIHNpemVkIHRyYWZmaWMgaXMgdGhl IG5vcm0sIEkgd291bGQgZ28NCj53aXRoIFRDUCBmb3IgaGVhdnkgbGlmdGluZyBhbnl3YXkgKHNl ZSBiZWxvdykuDQoNClRoaXMgbGVhZCB0byBhbm90aGVyIHRvcGljOiB3aGV0aGVyIGRpc2NvdmVy eSBjb3VsZCBiZSBsZXNzIHNlY3VyaXR5LiANCg0KPj4gSWYgd2UgY29uc2lkZXIgc2VjdXJpdHkv YXV0aGVudGljYXRpb24gaW5mb3JtYXRpb24gaW4gdGhlIG1lc3NhZ2VzLCBpdCBpcw0KPnBvc3Np YmxlIHRvIGV4Y2VlZCBNVFUuIEJ1dCB3aHkgdGhpcyBpcyBuZWNlc3NhcnkgZm9yIGNob29zaW5n IFRDUD8gVURQDQo+bWVzc2FnZXMgY2FuIGFsc28gYmUgZnJhZ21lbnRlZC4NCj4NCj5JZiB5b3Ug Y3Jvc3MgaG9wcyBvciBhZG1pbiBib3VuZGFyaWVzLCB5b3Ugd2lsbCBwb3RlbnRpYWxseSBydW4g YXQg4oCYd2UgZWF0DQo+VURQIGZyYWdtZW50c+KAmSBmaXJld2FsbHMgbGlrZSB0aGUgSUtFIHBl b3BsZSBkaWQuIFRoZXJlIGlzIG5vdyDigJh3ZSBkbyBvdXINCj5vd24gZnJhZ21lbnRhdGlvbuKA mSBJS0UgZHJhZnQvUkZDIChJIGNhbm5vdCByZW1lbWJlciB0aGUgc3RhdHVzKS4gR2l2ZW4NCj5u b2RlcyBvbiB0aGUgcGF0aCB0aGF0IGVhdCBJQ01QIFBNVFUgbWVzc2FnZXMsIHlvdSB3aW5kIHVw IGhhdmluZyB0byBzZW5kDQo+dGhpbmdzIGF0IG1pbmltdW0gTVRVIFVEUCBpZiB5b3Ugd2FudCB0 byBtYWtlIHN1cmUgdGhleSBtYWtlIGl0LiBBbmQNCj50aGF04oCZcyB1Z2x5Lg0KDQpJdCBsb29r cyB3ZSBhcmUgaGFuZGluZyBpbnRvIGEgbmV3IHNpdHVhdGlvbiAtIG1peCBVRFAvVENQIGludG8g YSBzaW5nbGUgcHJvdG9jb2wgZGVzaWduLiBUaGF0J3Mgb2ssIExEUCBkaXNjb3ZlcnkgcnVucyBv biBVRFAgcG9ydCA2NDYgYW5kIHRoZSBzZXNzaW9uIGlzIGJ1aWx0IG9uIFRDUC4NCg0KQmVzdCBy ZWdhcmRzLA0KDQpTaGVuZw0KDQo+Q2hlZXJzLA0KPg0KPi1NYXJrdXMNCg== From nobody Mon Jan 26 23:44:33 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C47671B2BB2 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 2015 23:44:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KLFDYF_mMFml for ; Mon, 26 Jan 2015 23:44:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3D77E1B2BB3 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 2015 23:44:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BRT88300; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 07:44:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.35) by lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.241) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 07:43:56 +0000 Received: from NKGEML512-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.106]) by nkgeml404-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.35]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 15:43:47 +0800 From: Sheng Jiang To: Brian E Carpenter , "anima@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Alternatives to TLV format was: RE: [Anima] GDNP open issues (draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01) Thread-Index: AQHQOcwfJCsnljNkckaMbYoRq0Qd/pzTgT9g Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 07:43:46 +0000 Message-ID: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B04278E@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <54C6E23A.2040209@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <54C6E23A.2040209@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.99.197] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: "Liubing \(Leo\)" Subject: [Anima] Alternatives to TLV format was: RE: GDNP open issues (draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01) X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 07:44:31 -0000 PiAgbyAgQWx0ZXJuYXRpdmVzIHRvIFRMViBmb3JtYXQuICBJdCBtYXkgYmUgdXNlZnVsIHRvIHBy b3ZpZGUgYSBtZXRob2QNCj4gICAgIG9mIGNhcnJ5aW5nIG5lZ290aWF0aW9uL3N5bmNoIG9iamVj dGl2ZXMgaW4gcHJlLWV4aXN0aW5nIGZvcm1hdHMuDQoNCkEgdGFnLWJhc2VkIGRlc2NyaXB0aW9u IGZvcm1hdCBtYXkgYmUgYSBnb29kIGNob2ljZSAobm90IG5lY2Vzc2FyeSB0byBiZSB4bWwpLiBJ dCB3b3VsZCBmaXJzdGx5IHNhdmUgdGhlIHR5cGUgcmVzb3VyY2UuIEl0IHdvdWxkIGFsc28gZ2l2 ZSBtdWNoIG1vcmUgZmxleGliaWxpdHkgYW5kIGV4dGVuc2liaWxpdHkuIE9uZSBleGFtcGxlIGNv dWxkIGJlIGxpa2U6DQoNClR5cGUgMjAgKGl0IGhhcyB0byBiZSBjb250YWluZWQgaW50byBhbiBh c3NpZ25lZCBUTFYgaWYgd2Ugd2FudCBpdCB0byBiZSBjby1leGlzdCB3aXRoIG90aGVyIFRMViwg cmF0aGVyIHRoYW4gb25seSBmb3JtYXQpDQoNCjxvYmplY3RpdmU+DQogICA8dHlwZT5wcmVmaXg8 IHR5cGU+DQogICA8cHJlZml4IGxlbmd0aD4zMjwvcHJlZml4IGxlbmd0aD4NCiAgIDx2YWx1ZT54 eHh4Onh4eHg6OiA8L3ZhbHVlPg0KPC9vYmplY3RpdmU+DQoNClRoZSBvYmplY3RpdmUgY291bGQg ZWFzaWx5IGJlIGV4dGVuZGVkIHRvIG90aGVyIHR5cGVzIGluIHN1Y2ggZm9ybWF0Lg0KDQpCZXN0 IHJlZ2FyZHMsDQoNClNoZW5nDQoNCj5SZWdhcmRzLA0KPiAgICBCcmlhbg0KPg0KPl9fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+QW5pbWEgbWFpbGluZyBs aXN0DQo+QW5pbWFAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj5odHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3Rp bmZvL2FuaW1hDQo= From nobody Tue Jan 27 00:14:35 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 723C01A3BA1 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 00:14:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m7wqD_dTLONN for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 00:14:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B83971A1C06 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 00:14:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BOL74493; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 08:14:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.36) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 08:14:22 +0000 Received: from NKGEML512-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.106]) by nkgeml405-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.36]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 16:14:13 +0800 From: Sheng Jiang To: Brian E Carpenter , "anima@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: objectives was: RE: [Anima] GDNP open issues (draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01) Thread-Index: AQHQOcwfJCsnljNkckaMbYoRq0Qd/pzTgblw Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 08:14:12 +0000 Message-ID: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B042803@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <54C6E23A.2040209@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <54C6E23A.2040209@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.99.197] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Anima] objectives was: RE: GDNP open issues (draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01) X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 08:14:33 -0000 PiAgbyAgSXMgaXQgcmVhc29uYWJsZSB0byBjb25zaWRlciB0aGF0IGEgRGlzY292ZXJ5IE9iamVj dGl2ZSBpcyByZWFsbHkNCj4gICAgIGp1c3QgYSBzZXQgb2Ygc3BlY2lmaWMgTmVnb3RpYXRpb24g YW5kL29yIFN5bmNocm9uaXphdGlvbg0KPiAgICAgT2JqZWN0aXZlcz8NCg0KSSBhbSBub3Qgc3Vy ZSB3aHkgd2UgbmVlZCB0byBkaXN0aW5ndWlzaCBEaXNjb3ZlcnkgT2JqZWN0aXZlLCBOZWdvdGlh dGlvbiBPYmplY3RpdmUgYW5kIFN5bmNocm9uaXphdGlvbiBPYmplY3RpdmUuIEZvciBtZSwgYWxs IHRoZXNlIG9iamVjdGl2ZXMgYXJlIGVxdWFsLiBUaGV5IGFyZSBtYW5hZ2VtZW50IG9iamVjdGl2 ZXMuIFRoZXkgYXJlIHRoZSBvYmplY3RpdmVzIGF1dG9ub21pYyBub2RlcyBuZWVkIHRvIG1hbmFn ZS4gSG93ZXZlciwgaW4gZGlmZmVyZW50IGNvbnRlbnQsIHRoZSBvYmplY3RpdmUgbWF5IGNvbnRh aW4gZGlmZmVyZW50IGNvbnRlbnRzIG9yIHNpbWlsYXIgY29udGVudCBoYXZlIGRpZmZlcmVudCBt ZWFuaW5nLiBGb3IgaW5zdGFuY2UsIERpc2NvdmVyeSBtYXkganVzdCBuZWVkIHRoZSBvYmplY3Rp dmUgdHlwZSB0byBkaXNjb3ZlcnkgcmlnaHQgY291bnRlcnBhcnQsIHN5bmNocm9uaXphdGlvbiBt YXkganVzdCBwcm92aWRlIGEgc3RhdHVzIG9mIHRoZSBvYmplY3RpdmUsIG5lZ290aWF0aW9uIHJl cXVlc3QgbWF5IGNvbnRhaW4gYSByZXF1ZXN0IHByZWZlcmVuY2UgZm9yIHRoZSBvYmplY3RpdmUs IG5lZ290aWF0aW9uIHJlc3BvbnNlIG1heSBjb250YWluIGEgcmVqZWN0IGZvciB0aGUgb2JqZWN0 aXZlIG9yIGFzc2lnbmVkIHJlc291cmNlIG9yIGZ1cnRoZXIgbmVnb3RpYXRpb24gaGludHMgZm9y IHRoZSBvYmplY3RpdmUgDQoNCkJlc3QgcmVnYXJkcywNCg0KU2hlbmcNCg0KPlJlZ2FyZHMsDQo+ ICAgIEJyaWFuDQo+DQo+X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX18NCj5BbmltYSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj5BbmltYUBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3 LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vYW5pbWENCg== From nobody Tue Jan 27 01:00:01 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBEB61ACD00 for ; 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Tue, 27 Jan 2015 08:59:09 +0000 Received: from NKGEML512-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.106]) by nkgeml402-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.33]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 16:59:03 +0800 From: Sheng Jiang To: Brian E Carpenter , "anima@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Registration based discovery was: RE: [Anima] GDNP open issues (draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01) Thread-Index: AQHQOcwfJCsnljNkckaMbYoRq0Qd/pzTmZ6A Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 08:59:03 +0000 Message-ID: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B04285D@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <54C6E23A.2040209@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <54C6E23A.2040209@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.99.197] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Anima] Registration based discovery was: RE: GDNP open issues (draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01) X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 08:59:51 -0000 PiAgbyAgU2hvdWxkIHdlIGNvbnNpZGVyIGEgZGlzdHJpYnV0ZWQgb3IgY2VudHJhbGlzZWQgRE5T LWxpa2UgYXBwcm9hY2gNCj4gICAgIHRvIGRpc2NvdmVyeSAoYWZ0ZXIgdGhlIGluaXRpYWwgZGlz Y292ZXJ5IG5lZWRlZCBmb3INCj4gICAgIGJvb3RzdHJhcHBpbmcpPw0KDQpJIHJlYWQgb3V0IHR3 byBjb3JlIG1lYW5pbmdzIGZyb20gdGhlIGFib3ZlIHdvcmRzOiBhKSByZWdpc3RyYXRpb24gbWVj aGFuaXNtIGIpIGl0ZXJhdGl2ZSByZXNvbHZpbmcgbWVjaGFuaXNtLiBUaGlzIGxvb2tzIGxpa2Ug YSByZWFzb25hYmxlIGFsdGVybmF0aXZlIGZvciBtdWx0aWNhc3QgbWVzc2FnZSBiYXNlZCBkaXNj b3ZlcnkgbWVjaGFuaXNtLiBIb3dldmVyLCB0IEkgaGF2ZSBhIHByaW1hcnkgY29uY2VybjogbWFp bnRlbmFuY2UsIHRoaXMgbWVjaGFuaXNtIGlzIHN0YXRlZnVsLCBpdCByZXF1ZXN0cyByZXNvdXJj ZSB0byBtYWluIHN0YXRlcywgd2hpbGUgbXVsdGljYXN0IG1lc3NhZ2UgYmFzZWQgZGlzY292ZXJ5 IGlzIHN0YXRlbGVzcy4gV2hlbiB0aGUgYXV0b25vbWljIG5ldHdvcmsgaXMgYmVjb21lIGJpZywg dGhlIG1haW50ZW5hbmNlIGFuZCByZXNvbHZlIG1heSB0YWtlIGEgbG90IHJlc291cmNlLiBPZiBj b3Vyc2UsIG11bHRpY2FzdCBtZXNzYWdlIGJhc2VkIGRpc2NvdmVyeSBtYXkgY3JlYXRlIG1vcmUg bWVzc2FnZXMuIE1vcmUgY29uY2VybnMgbWF5IHJhaXNlIGlmIHdlIGRlY2lkZSB0byBleHBsb3Jl L2Rlc2lnbiB0aGlzIG1lY2hhbmlzbSBmdXJ0aGVyLg0KDQpCZXN0IHJlZ2FyZHMsDQoNClNoZW5n DQoNCj5SZWdhcmRzLA0KPiAgICBCcmlhbg0KPg0KPl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+QW5pbWEgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+QW5pbWFAaWV0Zi5v cmcNCj5odHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2FuaW1hDQo= From nobody Tue Jan 27 01:08:47 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0DAE1A874A for ; 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Tue, 27 Jan 2015 09:08:34 +0000 Received: from NKGEML505-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.222]) by nkgeml403-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.34]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 17:08:21 +0800 From: Duzongpeng To: Brian E Carpenter , "anima@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: DISCOVERY(ANY) mechanism was: RE: [Anima] GDNP open issues (draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01) Thread-Index: AQHQOf9g8Qr0Yv8nHUe9V+aUE0K/9JzTpPpg Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 09:08:20 +0000 Message-ID: References: <54C6E23A.2040209@gmail.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B042698@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B042698@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.98.160] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: Sheng Jiang Subject: [Anima] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiBESVNDT1ZFUlkoQU5ZKSBtZWNoYW5pc20g?= =?utf-8?q?was=3A_RE=3A__GDNP_open_issues_=28draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-pro?= =?utf-8?q?tocol-01=29?= X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 09:08:42 -0000 SGkgQnJpYW46DQoNCiAgSSBhZ3JlZSB3aXRoIHRoYXQgdGhlIEF1dG8tRGlzY292ZXJ5IG1lY2hh bmlzbSBpcyBlc3NlbnRpYWwgaW4gdGhlIGF1dG9ub21pYyBuZXR3b3JrLg0KDQogIE9uIG9uZSBo YW5kLCBhIG5ldyBkZXZpY2Ugc2hvdWxkIGludHJvZHVjZSBpdHNlbGY7IG9uIHRoZSBvdGhlciBo YW5kLCB0aGUgbmV3IGRldmljZSBuZWVkcyB0byBrbm93IGFib3V0IHRoZSBuZWlnaGJvciwgbmV0 d29yaywgYW5kIHNlcnZpY2UgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24uDQoNCiAgV2hlbiB0aGlua2luZyBhYm91dCBp dCBmdXJ0aGVyLCBJIHRoaW5rIHRoYXQgaW4gdGhpcyBESVNDT1ZFUlkgbWVjaGFuaXNtLCBzZWxm LWRlc2NyaXB0aW9uIGFuZCBzZWxmLWFkdmVydGlzZW1lbnQgb2YgdGhlIGRldmljZXMgaW4gdGhl IG5ldHdvcmsgaXMgYW4gaW1wb3J0YW50IGFzcGVjdCwgYW5kIGEgc3RhbmRhcmQgZm9ybWF0IG9m IGV4cHJlc3Npb24gaXMgaGVscGZ1bCB0byBsZXQgdGhlIGRldmljZXMga25vdyB0aGUgY2FwYWJp bGl0aWVzIG9mIGVhY2ggb3RoZXIuDQoNCkJlc3QgcmVnYXJkcywNCg0KWm9uZ3BlbmcgRHUNCg0K DQotLS0tLemCruS7tuWOn+S7ti0tLS0tDQrlj5Hku7bkuro6IFNoZW5nIEppYW5nIA0K5Y+R6YCB 5pe26Ze0OiAyMDE15bm0MeaciDI35pelIDE1OjAzDQrmlLbku7bkuro6IEJyaWFuIEUgQ2FycGVu dGVyOyBhbmltYUBpZXRmLm9yZw0K5oqE6YCBOiBEdXpvbmdwZW5nDQrkuLvpopg6IERJU0NPVkVS WShBTlkpIG1lY2hhbmlzbSB3YXM6IFJFOiBbQW5pbWFdIEdETlAgb3BlbiBpc3N1ZXMgKGRyYWZ0 LWNhcnBlbnRlci1hbmltYS1nZG4tcHJvdG9jb2wtMDEpDQoNCj4gIG8gIFdvdWxkIGEgRElTQ09W RVJZKEFOWSkgbWVjaGFuaXNtIGJlIHVzZWZ1bCBkdXJpbmcgYm9vdHN0cmFwcGluZz8NCg0KVGhp cyBkZXBlbmRzIG9uIGEpIGhvdyBtYW55IGFyZSBBTlksIGIpIGhvdyBtYW55IGNvdW50ZXJwYXJ0 IG1heSBiZSBkaXNjb3ZlcmVkLg0KDQpJZiBBTlkgaXMgbGVzcyB0aGFuIHR3ZW50eSBvciB0aGly dHksIGl0IG1heSBub3QgYmUgYSB2ZXJ5IGJpZyBpbXBhY3QuIEJ1dCBpZiBBTlkgaXMgbW9yZSB0 aGFuIGEgaHVuZHJlZCwgaXQgbWF5IGJlIHRvbyBtdWNoIGZvciBib3RoIHRoZSBhdXRvbm9taWMg bmV0d29yayBhbmQgdGhlIGluaXRpYXRlZCBub2RlLiBNeSBndWVzcyBpcyB3ZSBjb3VsZCBub3Qg bGltaXQgaG93IG1hbnkgb2JqZWN0aXZlcyBtYXkgYmUgZGV2ZWxvcGVkIGluIHRoZSBmdXR1cmUu DQoNClRoZSBpbml0aWF0ZWQgbWF5IG5vdCBiZSBhYmxlIHRvIGNvbnRyb2wgaG93IG1hbnkgY291 bnRlcnBhcnQgdG8gYmUgZGlzY292ZXJlZC4gSWYgdGhlIGF1dG9ub21pYyBuZXR3b3JrIGl0c2Vs ZiBpcyBhIGxhcmdlLXNjYWxlIG5ldHdvcmssIHN1Y2ggZGlzY292ZXJ5IChBTlkpIG1heSBoYXZl IG1lc3NhZ2UgYnVzdCBpc3N1ZS4gSG93ZXZlciwgdGhpcyBtYXkgbm90IGJlIGEgYmlnIGlzc3Vl LCBpZiB0aGVyZSBhcmUgYXV0b25vbWljIHBhcnRpdGlvbiBtZWNoYW5pc21zIGluIHN1Y2ggbGFy Z2Ugc2NhbGUgYXV0b25vbWljIG5ldHdvcmsuDQoNCkJlc3QgcmVnYXJkcywNCg0KU2hlbmcNCg0K PlJlZ2FyZHMsDQo+ICAgIEJyaWFuDQo+DQo+X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj5BbmltYSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj5BbmltYUBpZXRmLm9yZw0K Pmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vYW5pbWENCg== From nobody Tue Jan 27 02:41:03 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75B571A8748 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 02:41:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fRs5ktnYSzUS for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 02:40:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DDE0D1A1AA1 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 02:40:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BRU09118; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 10:40:57 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.35) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 10:40:56 +0000 Received: from NKGEML506-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.150]) by nkgeml404-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.35]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 18:40:43 +0800 From: "Liubing (Leo)" To: Sheng Jiang , Brian E Carpenter , "anima@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Anima] objectives was: RE: GDNP open issues (draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01) Thread-Index: AQHQOguKTJg4oRwSaUqxPGXgg8j3DpzTvwpQ Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 10:40:42 +0000 Message-ID: <8AE0F17B87264D4CAC7DE0AA6C406F457CE9C9B7@nkgeml506-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <54C6E23A.2040209@gmail.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B042803@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B042803@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.98.117] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Anima] objectives was: RE: GDNP open issues (draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01) X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 10:41:01 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Sheng Jiang > Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 4:14 PM > To: Brian E Carpenter; anima@ietf.org > Subject: [Anima] objectives was: RE: GDNP open issues > (draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01) >=20 > > o Is it reasonable to consider that a Discovery Objective is really > > just a set of specific Negotiation and/or Synchronization > > Objectives? >=20 > I am not sure why we need to distinguish Discovery Objective, Negotiation > Objective and Synchronization Objective. For me, all these objectives are > equal. They are management objectives. They are the objectives autonomic > nodes need to manage. However, in different content, the objective may > contain different contents or similar content have different meaning. For > instance, Discovery may just need the objective type to discovery right > counterpart, synchronization may just provide a status of the objective, > negotiation request may contain a request preference for the objective, > negotiation response may contain a reject for the objective or assigned > resource or further negotiation hints for the objective [Bing] I think there might be two possible designs: 1. As Sheng said above, we only model the objectives in one dimension. All = the objectives are a set of flat management functions/features. No distingu= ish between Discovery/Negotiation/Sync objectives. 2. We make Discovery/Negotiation/Sync focus on different aspects, e.g.: - Discovery Objectives represent "who" - Negotiation Objectives represent "what to do"; they could be folded into = one Discovery Objective, or they're just two dimensions. - Sync content could be a combination of the above two kinds of objectives No.1 is obviously simpler and clearer; No.2 is complicated but might be mor= e capable to model the complex management objectives. Currently, I can't figure out whether No.1 could fit the requirements. What= are your thoughts? Best regards, Bing >=20 > Best regards, >=20 > Sheng >=20 > >Regards, > > Brian > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Anima mailing list > >Anima@ietf.org > >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima From nobody Tue Jan 27 06:00:01 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9F731A8739 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 05:59:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q0pTmrCxxZmh for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 05:59:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 069291A1B3F for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 05:59:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.131.153] ([80.92.115.149]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx002) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LcT2M-1Xnxfd3bPS-00jtzn for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 14:59:44 +0100 Message-ID: <54C79A61.3000303@gmx.net> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 15:02:09 +0100 From: Hannes Tschofenig User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: anima@ietf.org OpenPGP: id=4D776BC9 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Jir845tMRBBXPlsNMh7jQe2UBWvRM5CjO" X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:i0p5r9z+BditUykea+t0TF/3BJe53e+klaXrXzRKSKP61B+MEaH Jmtb+/zKJTjOONzu31D0bBEpiKkG6ua75MEeQgPn/7Ma/taOhyb0i484U5la0/LiXP7skTB udaKKLpnUe+bHBtt5jRxTvbaxnZX+K5zen7Mnc2awlWhTb5DHuhxu1DAoTPrCkYihnRy7y9 5RPQBvRi07Tn1RALgokCQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1; Archived-At: Subject: [Anima] Basic Questions X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 13:59:54 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --Jir845tMRBBXPlsNMh7jQe2UBWvRM5CjO Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Anima Working Group, I was trying to do reviews of the ANIMA documents. My goal was to find out whether they are applicable to my work. I wrote a long review but in the end I realized it had quite a depressive tone. So, I am starting fresh and ask some very basic questions: a) What use cases are you guys trying to solve? b) Is there something that can be done to at least harmonize the terminology (with the other efforts that are already ongoing)? c) Could something be done regarding the overlap with work in other groups (in the IETF) and even outside the IETF? While the different terminology conceals some of these overlaps quite nicely it will sooner or later be noticed by others as well. Ciao Hannes --Jir845tMRBBXPlsNMh7jQe2UBWvRM5CjO Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJUx5phAAoJEGhJURNOOiAtz3AH/2+zibv8APkzyWRSSoYxlwOz CVRS6O5mFX2OMg0B1/2Nl+CeE5XaIE4aCNeAek5hPiAU3ZNj2LOgKvqlIFfBYN+C aTTThYJWOQVAcQWLHRE1TtRtY/JovkhObRiwb9VOglT01XXnsosy3SdbqaIw/eSV 5zgU508pwySqItPX8dLERsHnG5PjZCFO8hWYMTw9eCOhgMo16mgAB4DMS9Wqzaq/ iL2043XwCPlQ9tJCT6mAX1MykX+9zbNNXYbp55Y2Ghvg6yp6njrD4pFRXDf4EJSU 134Q4zS9lqPDGYtscey5ke8jS4Y5eefyo848X9qeSxU9lEuowHaqvcVz248CJQE= =JKac -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Jir845tMRBBXPlsNMh7jQe2UBWvRM5CjO-- From nobody Tue Jan 27 10:53:00 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BABEE1A8708 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 10:52:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C2rUmbhdnmv2 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 10:52:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x22f.google.com (mail-pa0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22f]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC9601A86EA for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 10:52:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f47.google.com with SMTP id lj1so20160020pab.6 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 10:52:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=5gySGBsjG0+cOY9Srrauvq1UZ07298eKrhVeLLkY2jI=; b=ZLUlER3ExK9X5f8MjWcwncaO9Nn1IDQxB2bniFQI7jjJwBijMLahTliJdk+TVGhCko DV5MCz9k5rWBkxexKGM6A5KjpAjNYIU12LOeV2g/0K1tIzZBndm9I/p+nzlM6BwHvuKo C33AqyptwVtYEYvziPGIypSid5ftnDl7RHki86YBEGwf4RjtznH5vqMt7ZIB0d6i/ioz 8AFJoQj3n8LHqgh0a5gnkK/46bSLVI3DMpW6ftxCm3UIlsvvscKV1A2d1TzCMaiHdECn caLmLRbjaPQ66NYLdM0nMqAuo0jRn1yc77Q674rBbwIuc8m4VOVufRKOKSYFORzxYT71 s71g== X-Received: by 10.68.201.166 with SMTP id kb6mr4672204pbc.28.1422384776086; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 10:52:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:44cf:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:44cf:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id t7sm2274434pbs.90.2015.01.27.10.52.52 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 27 Jan 2015 10:52:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <54C7DE84.2040506@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 07:52:52 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sheng Jiang , Markus Stenberg References: <54C6E23A.2040209@gmail.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B0425E3@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <2A609DE3-46F1-4619-809A-8675D4ADD198@iki.fi> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B042795@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B042795@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: "anima@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Anima] UDP vs TCP was//RE: GDNP open issues (draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01) X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 18:52:59 -0000 On 27/01/2015 20:43, Sheng Jiang wrote: >>>> o UDP vs TCP: If messages exceed a reasonable MTU, a TCP mode >>>> may be necessary. >>> For me, discovery should be UDP giving the fact that most of message >>> exchanging would be very short. I am not sure about synchronization a= nd >>> negotiation. TCP is certainly more reliable, but it requests more com= plicated >>> handshake before the peers can actually exchange information. One mor= e >>> consideration is to mix UDP/TCP into a single protocol design may be = creating >>> unnecessary complexity and confusion. Also, rapid discovery process i= s >>> actually doing part of negotiation. It may not be able to separate th= ese >>> process totally. >> >> Discovery (assuming you want to do multicast) has to be UDP. >=20 > Agree. Discovery means unknown recipients. So multicast is necessary. >=20 >> It depends on traffic amounts I guess; >=20 > Discovery should be a set of short communications, which of them have o= nly one or two message. So UDP looks better. >=20 > Synchronization is also a set of short communications, but between cert= ain pairs. So UDP or long-live TCP session could work. >=20 > Negotiation may be longer communications. TCP may be better. >=20 >> TCP does give you lots of things >> relatively for free, and e.g. implementation-wise TLS is more mature a= nd >> common than DTLS. If you guess >MTU sized traffic is the norm, I would= go >> with TCP for heavy lifting anyway (see below). >=20 > This lead to another topic: whether discovery could be less security.=20 >=20 >>> If we consider security/authentication information in the messages, i= t is >> possible to exceed MTU. But why this is necessary for choosing TCP? UD= P >> messages can also be fragmented. >> >> If you cross hops or admin boundaries, you will potentially run at =E2= =80=98we eat >> UDP fragments=E2=80=99 firewalls like the IKE people did. There is now= =E2=80=98we do our >> own fragmentation=E2=80=99 IKE draft/RFC (I cannot remember the status= ). Given >> nodes on the path that eat ICMP PMTU messages, you wind up having to s= end >> things at minimum MTU UDP if you want to make sure they make it. And >> that=E2=80=99s ugly. >=20 > It looks we are handing into a new situation - mix UDP/TCP into a singl= e protocol design. That's ok, LDP discovery runs on UDP port 646 and the = session is built on TCP. Apart from the problems with fragmentation and PMTUD sometimes failing (which *might* be non-problems within a single administrative domain), there is an overhead cost for fragmentation & reassembly. I'm wondering whether anyone has studied that cost vs the overhead of TCP for a fairly short communication. Brian From nobody Tue Jan 27 10:55:31 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFFB21A891F for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 10:55:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Rg-HmnIVW55W for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 10:55:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x235.google.com (mail-pa0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::235]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F228A1A8924 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 10:55:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f53.google.com with SMTP id kx10so20158006pab.12 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 10:55:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=QQhDo8Y4GamvK1rYPp0rgCmu4MYO+myc5Nuqt/N0HFE=; b=iq40R1dsQf/XUdPNnH/TcUN9rrppk0NtsiXdaWHYGu1QoKlLE/QM5Lq6t8tYf8M4mP kdWfVcoURTTpnZe0zsXrM2n3Z2pvQi0PGJlnYSMgjqmCYlLQYo1glscKltaIPGrilkUx IK7vBUYMy6d3/cBtmh0BiyvrUrq8s2VoCtGPNlXE7OeL87IlJcgwdZ2c4azBYbJMu1RI xBf4VKCPezTRah5Tjjx1uypdsNcB23MNGAmhtoe8pCr2l6difgoN62zKAp+LXBy0nKCw XjH0SuSby7ZLWPAq64Kkh4MBAE6jl7jbDjjNQ6yhOVk+M9CECBC7cTaOmx4fW9S4OTbw lXPw== X-Received: by 10.66.224.199 with SMTP id re7mr4395019pac.65.1422384916256; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 10:55:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:44cf:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:44cf:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id sl5sm2323763pbc.45.2015.01.27.10.55.13 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 27 Jan 2015 10:55:15 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <54C7DF15.1030302@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 07:55:17 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" , "anima@ietf.org" References: <54B5BF62.1050205@gmail.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21D3C592@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <54C70DF7.8000806@gmail.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21D451DA@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF21D451DA@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Anima] draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra-00 X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 18:55:24 -0000 On 27/01/2015 20:30, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote: >>> The MASA is optional >> >> That's good but I absolutely didn't pick it up while reading the text. I think it >> needs to be stated more clearly and maybe indicated in the diagram. > > Yes, this is difficult. In the overall approach there are many design options, and the number of options actually make the whole document confusing to read. We had many backs and forths on how to deal with all the options. So what we decided in the end was to do was to document the "optimal" case (in terms of security) first, and THEN document a list of "if you can't do x or don't have y, the impact is z". > > I still think this is probably the right approach, but (obviously) we need to explain that better. > > Would you agree with this approach? As long as it's clearly explained, sure. My sensitivity about the MASA is that IMHO it has definite risks as well as advantages. Brian From nobody Tue Jan 27 10:59:59 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE36C1A6FF1 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 10:59:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G7zBRbpwxBuT for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 10:59:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x234.google.com (mail-pa0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::234]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 281261A1F1D for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 10:59:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f52.google.com with SMTP id kx10so20189821pab.11 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 10:59:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZqsZtd1bCS+p8GUYHUa/0mSl86ofAz3LP0OKyOCwYkw=; b=iv/x85gsoihZfwN3sAKr9Pn3ZYGnlDpW5h8s6YdMqMKwjyBbF5aiO/UHGBbs59Zv1o 1YrozIQDxjAi77ruZ0HDTMEnRzLQKed7sBT93TwdPg3ZdMM2wRl9lwGCL3A6b9oLVii4 GDr3tOR/ykR+mjahSuB2diE9dVBXREBhzwERYJc3wk1oy+bmDwEgmxzD6ICmEj6xhue/ gv2oCUw2iH8Mx8vE1OdAHI0FbJSj1hbXoAqkkPcDvG4Df93Yc9CxK30TQrpEtHUPe9/f JxTbTU3NevjuM2SnrH024HuPR3jKMdnIHvS6WVe5iFH9n7Rhie1fHh6gF/xHVHLzrTrW uwZA== X-Received: by 10.68.168.164 with SMTP id zx4mr979316pbb.117.1422385192397; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 10:59:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:44cf:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:44cf:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id wm1sm2379194pac.11.2015.01.27.10.59.49 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 27 Jan 2015 10:59:51 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <54C7E02A.5000602@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 07:59:54 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sheng Jiang , "anima@ietf.org" References: <54C6E23A.2040209@gmail.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B042621@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B042621@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Anima] Mechanisms to avoid loop dependencies was: RE: GDNP open issues (draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01) X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 18:59:56 -0000 On 27/01/2015 19:28, Sheng Jiang wrote: >> o We mention convergence mechanisms and mechanisms to avoid >> loop dependencies. These issues need more work. > > Personally, I don't think we could complete these mechanisms to avoid loop dependencies. These mechanisms are specific with certain autonomic network agents, who use GDNP to make decisions. On another side, a generic mechanism to detect looped message may be needed. Also some guidance for autonomic network agents design on how to avoid loop dependencies would be great. But I am not sure it is in the scope of GDNP design document. It may worth a separated document, I guess. Well, we do need to add a section setting out general guidelines for the definition of negotiation objectives. Mechanisms to guarantee convergence should probably be mentioned there. Maybe we need to add a countdown field (like a TTL) to each negotiation. Brian > > Best regards, > > Sheng > >> Regards, >> Brian >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Anima mailing list >> Anima@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima From nobody Tue Jan 27 11:13:37 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F9A21A1B4F for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 11:13:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TXlAcmvN7ggF for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 11:13:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pd0-x22f.google.com (mail-pd0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::22f]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA9C51A1B34 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 11:13:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pd0-f175.google.com with SMTP id fl12so20596202pdb.6 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 11:13:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=89d25VUDle5PvDV885XFUuaiplbU8r+189sCQojZh5I=; b=pzPIDqjPje0J/txIrvaQyzDiovwQLt6o7RtjZdZddz2lq6DIQcdp+LgR0JPZD1CmIW heeGYpLhegqKH/PjPIF+C1xVYcVLZrQlUGWSEzGkTl7Hi+hb+Jd6P0OP+gcach6lph6i OlGwNtpX+GDRISQqARH5w2//w0yc5FQ7xJ9YBQes45Q2Bz9gp34Jzq8Q7OFIv3HfOAYG c62jO9kqOyhrDa1xoVeYtR6ikhz8IXgcXLH8CKapFERE2uWsfF/khgfI5WJI6lRz0Dxs axJkhPuunRyyfYQpyb16Vv/yX6Z29w+VyR6W0aHcB8nGdYgzMjGaVakSKGor2zkQSsyW goHA== X-Received: by 10.68.65.16 with SMTP id t16mr4259506pbs.163.1422386012169; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 11:13:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:44cf:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:44cf:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id y2sm2369068pdm.31.2015.01.27.11.13.29 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 27 Jan 2015 11:13:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <54C7E35D.7020006@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 08:13:33 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Liubing (Leo)" , Sheng Jiang , "anima@ietf.org" References: <54C6E23A.2040209@gmail.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B042803@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <8AE0F17B87264D4CAC7DE0AA6C406F457CE9C9B7@nkgeml506-mbx.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <8AE0F17B87264D4CAC7DE0AA6C406F457CE9C9B7@nkgeml506-mbx.china.huawei.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Anima] objectives was: RE: GDNP open issues (draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01) X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 19:13:35 -0000 On 27/01/2015 23:40, Liubing (Leo) wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Sheng Jiang >> Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 4:14 PM >> To: Brian E Carpenter; anima@ietf.org >> Subject: [Anima] objectives was: RE: GDNP open issues >> (draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01) >> >>> o Is it reasonable to consider that a Discovery Objective is really >>> just a set of specific Negotiation and/or Synchronization >>> Objectives? >> >> I am not sure why we need to distinguish Discovery Objective, Negotiation >> Objective and Synchronization Objective. For me, all these objectives are >> equal. They are management objectives. They are the objectives autonomic >> nodes need to manage. However, in different content, the objective may >> contain different contents or similar content have different meaning. For >> instance, Discovery may just need the objective type to discovery right >> counterpart, synchronization may just provide a status of the objective, >> negotiation request may contain a request preference for the objective, >> negotiation response may contain a reject for the objective or assigned >> resource or further negotiation hints for the objective > [Bing] I think there might be two possible designs: > 1. As Sheng said above, we only model the objectives in one dimension. All the objectives are a set of flat management functions/features. No distinguish between Discovery/Negotiation/Sync objectives. > 2. We make Discovery/Negotiation/Sync focus on different aspects, e.g.: > - Discovery Objectives represent "who" > - Negotiation Objectives represent "what to do"; they could be folded into one Discovery Objective, or they're just two dimensions. > - Sync content could be a combination of the above two kinds of objectives > > No.1 is obviously simpler and clearer; No.2 is complicated but might be more capable to model the complex management objectives. > Currently, I can't figure out whether No.1 could fit the requirements. What are your thoughts? Well, first I am happy to see your opinion since I have been a bit puzzled about this distinction from the beginning when I saw your initial design :-). Yes, I agree with No. 1 except for one aspect: if there is a set of objectives that always belong together (let's say IPv6 prefix and next-hop router, to invent a possibly controveersial example). If I discover a counterpart for assigning an IPv6 prefix, it would be pointless to then discover a counterpart for indicating a next-hop router. It must be the same counterpart. So we have two solutions: A) Discover "assign IPv6 prefix" only, and use the result for both objectives. B) Discover "assign IPv6 prefix and indicate next-hop router", in other words a discovery objective that covers both negotiation objectives. If you took the third solution: C) Discover "assign IPv6 prefix" and then discover "indicate next-hop router" there would be a problem if you got two different responses. Brian From nobody Tue Jan 27 11:38:49 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0B731A897E for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 11:38:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fkHsG48cu83W for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 11:38:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pd0-x234.google.com (mail-pd0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::234]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4B1B01A1B3C for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 11:38:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pd0-f180.google.com with SMTP id ft15so20644262pdb.11 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 11:38:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=75AQJNEQ/vegLnHkzBFszPLDvIxzI0449tTELWejqDI=; b=Rx/WD4grf/KMiI5KLD3YeSlLpnnJ9Zp3afAKHTViXVwdEVXYVF57yRO6W8CjU2wEw0 II2RoXPwClU6Di1v9IM0GgtruZs7+9xzkRGzDPj5SMZhEpWUmDQmaXDeGrcRMUlmUedp 39vgjpqim4tdT+TYUtAxXMcK4/jfI7EdVhKJ5FgxZejg7AOgYJYQ42OfUPcJlm876O7Y Phs5qzD4eTOxJkD7APR5XAxaqZC17QrNJLYn7GA86IluMmfl8b/+HQ07Ax0jfr2LftD+ 2M1Lt8yHP8UTpx/eHOtHMZPmp5EuB+sGHUJZ2ESoJoltzecnQFj1yzgy0Ji98OfrjFUN Q1sw== X-Received: by 10.68.232.33 with SMTP id tl1mr4703739pbc.65.1422387523517; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 11:38:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:44cf:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:44cf:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id i5sm2377985pat.42.2015.01.27.11.38.40 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 27 Jan 2015 11:38:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <54C7E944.7080705@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 08:38:44 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hannes Tschofenig , anima@ietf.org References: <54C79A61.3000303@gmx.net> In-Reply-To: <54C79A61.3000303@gmx.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Anima] Basic Questions X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 19:38:46 -0000 Hi Hannes, On 28/01/2015 03:02, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > Dear Anima Working Group, > > I was trying to do reviews of the ANIMA documents. My goal was to find > out whether they are applicable to my work. > > I wrote a long review but in the end I realized it had quite a > depressive tone. > > So, I am starting fresh and ask some very basic questions: > > a) What use cases are you guys trying to solve? Well... everything. Seriously, I don't know if you were at the original UCAN BOF, but we did survey a wide range (7) of use cases. The materials are at http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/ucan.html . During chartering, the decision was to focus on just a couple of initial use cases but the ambition remains as a very general set of mechanisms. Anything that can be configured conventionally is a potential use case. > b) Is there something that can be done to at least harmonize the > terminology (with the other efforts that are already ongoing)? We have a bit of a dilemma because autonomic networking has been a field of study for a decade and has its own terminology. But of course I agree in principle that harmonisation, or at least a common dictionary, would be very desirable. We'd need to see some of your review to discuss that specifically, I guess. > c) Could something be done regarding the overlap with work in other > groups (in the IETF) and even outside the IETF? While the different > terminology conceals some of these overlaps quite nicely it will sooner > or later be noticed by others as well. Again, it's difficult to do that without specifics. To some extent the problem is unsolvable because we are trying to do something generic, which by definition overlaps with everything. To take the example of homenet, we understand to a fair extent the risk of overlap with DNCP. That doesn't mean we won't have features in GDNP that are already provided by DNCP. We're trying to produce a toolkit. But the specific use cases would be applications of this toolkit, and it's well understood that they have to co-exist with existing solutions. If you like, the junction point between the generic solution and the existing solutions will be the Autonomic Service Agents. (This is something we should develop further in draft-behringer-anima-reference-model, I believe.) Certainly, a list of what you see as terminology equivalents and potentially overlapping efforts would be highly valuable. Regards Brian From nobody Tue Jan 27 11:39:08 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A8501A899C for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 11:39:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ab6FklMLyOnN for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 11:38:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pd0-x236.google.com (mail-pd0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::236]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B05DB1A899E for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 11:38:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pd0-f182.google.com with SMTP id z10so20627164pdj.13 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 11:38:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=75AQJNEQ/vegLnHkzBFszPLDvIxzI0449tTELWejqDI=; b=AwCsW1gaFevAjXgGfYwu+zJVXIt2B9SdT4ahF9jPeUONyWhWd+9MvZgXJV1L1LH+RH 9kzOPV+jb4XRlS6F1ttLAiAhkeLstP+llwGzt/lYyaerb5CwiRz5AcxNV6mIGYVFmCWL 3YOj6D6o8KQgb3NL/T1KRK61/fK90CS7jErGa1SQA42NYY6hSC9ua+TKerL1D9P9QjHT bqVwbVanr5GFQ590Ey7cU8uBWeDd+zOTX1OENeST7R0M+5c+kWrk2HoVsAQslmwmEqVY N8idkfesN5qsCNTAe+/XapWP9L4HD4Q1NW+GGPW7NV5aFMc1S6huZ9ynG1aJxQRuDbzS aenA== X-Received: by 10.66.55.41 with SMTP id o9mr4861131pap.80.1422387532927; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 11:38:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:44cf:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:44cf:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id pr2sm2345166pbb.88.2015.01.27.11.38.50 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 27 Jan 2015 11:38:52 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <54C7E94E.30309@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 08:38:54 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hannes Tschofenig , anima@ietf.org References: <54C79A61.3000303@gmx.net> In-Reply-To: <54C79A61.3000303@gmx.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Anima] Basic Questions X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 19:39:07 -0000 Hi Hannes, On 28/01/2015 03:02, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > Dear Anima Working Group, > > I was trying to do reviews of the ANIMA documents. My goal was to find > out whether they are applicable to my work. > > I wrote a long review but in the end I realized it had quite a > depressive tone. > > So, I am starting fresh and ask some very basic questions: > > a) What use cases are you guys trying to solve? Well... everything. Seriously, I don't know if you were at the original UCAN BOF, but we did survey a wide range (7) of use cases. The materials are at http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/ucan.html . During chartering, the decision was to focus on just a couple of initial use cases but the ambition remains as a very general set of mechanisms. Anything that can be configured conventionally is a potential use case. > b) Is there something that can be done to at least harmonize the > terminology (with the other efforts that are already ongoing)? We have a bit of a dilemma because autonomic networking has been a field of study for a decade and has its own terminology. But of course I agree in principle that harmonisation, or at least a common dictionary, would be very desirable. We'd need to see some of your review to discuss that specifically, I guess. > c) Could something be done regarding the overlap with work in other > groups (in the IETF) and even outside the IETF? While the different > terminology conceals some of these overlaps quite nicely it will sooner > or later be noticed by others as well. Again, it's difficult to do that without specifics. To some extent the problem is unsolvable because we are trying to do something generic, which by definition overlaps with everything. To take the example of homenet, we understand to a fair extent the risk of overlap with DNCP. That doesn't mean we won't have features in GDNP that are already provided by DNCP. We're trying to produce a toolkit. But the specific use cases would be applications of this toolkit, and it's well understood that they have to co-exist with existing solutions. If you like, the junction point between the generic solution and the existing solutions will be the Autonomic Service Agents. (This is something we should develop further in draft-behringer-anima-reference-model, I believe.) Certainly, a list of what you see as terminology equivalents and potentially overlapping efforts would be highly valuable. Regards Brian From nobody Tue Jan 27 12:00:55 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12AC81A8A5F for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 12:00:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dVjDy9sAI0ct for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 12:00:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9503C1A8A1E for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 12:00:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.131.153] ([80.92.115.149]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx002) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MO7im-1YJVhZ238e-005bJa; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 21:00:37 +0100 Message-ID: <54C7EE72.8070603@gmx.net> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 21:00:50 +0100 From: Hannes Tschofenig User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian E Carpenter , anima@ietf.org References: <54C79A61.3000303@gmx.net> <54C7E944.7080705@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <54C7E944.7080705@gmail.com> OpenPGP: id=4D776BC9 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="LW01v0vHUt6tUXb4lxGTIhqLrMVt1xuQV" X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:5nVpZyhkIoP0a5lo+Axamuf8WSZumU2BswPbxVQRFe+waOTxR0f uWWRrydNukXMeZgKderj0cBxlMQoCzUBcXxbDBNGxEhDTdbAvAYJWcM9uu9mspSAyN9ifpF CE8GfWW1lFUzWMtvkLxNMbOcgwwG3L7qAiTJXKwmwWnFsEAqIByHSKdisR2+qvZrpExX2tC cpn/UBDPFxDD7hriM/LFA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1; Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Anima] Basic Questions X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 20:00:42 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --LW01v0vHUt6tUXb4lxGTIhqLrMVt1xuQV Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Brian, thanks for the quick response. On 01/27/2015 08:38 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Hi Hannes, >=20 > On 28/01/2015 03:02, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: >> Dear Anima Working Group, >> >> I was trying to do reviews of the ANIMA documents. My goal was to find= >> out whether they are applicable to my work. >> >> I wrote a long review but in the end I realized it had quite a >> depressive tone. >> >> So, I am starting fresh and ask some very basic questions: >> >> a) What use cases are you guys trying to solve? >=20 > Well... everything. >=20 > Seriously, I don't know if you were at the original UCAN BOF, > but we did survey a wide range (7) of use cases. The materials > are at http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/ucan.html . Thanks for the pointer. I was unfortunately not at that BOF and so I will have to study the material. Before responding to your other questions (where you essentially ask for more details) I guess I will have to do some reading first. Ciao Hannes --LW01v0vHUt6tUXb4lxGTIhqLrMVt1xuQV Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJUx+5yAAoJEGhJURNOOiAtvJ0H/1oh4Rbwc16rP1Is61SprDME jlyMvqAjwHfDcrT90DESyWTrCMMYqyYjg8Nh2Bz9QvIbj71Mp9+LKnbT9pfCOWe3 zz2Tc9SF2LX+2uBhaI9yXGcXCbrosN67lriS+vzlnw2KdHfYZj96hZZAP8jtvLbm GMiFrfcE6Lvt0XS1KoKIYGQTukzk0aFgK/RUL9XE6UVxBa6YQLeK7VEW5f7ojlaf v5G6CXZAn6AckgDeUJ/34xviKTaQ8GKiECl6Ipnm6Lr1sV1fOdqj5OlsOzSRXwom 3Pz6Dvm//YJKGbd5nqGCjsJJgYU+Na8Db6pYX1Ei0MAlGJ3HTUokHIff4FielBE= =fPmr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --LW01v0vHUt6tUXb4lxGTIhqLrMVt1xuQV-- From zimba_c@yahoo.com Tue Jan 27 06:56:25 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FF981A6F2D for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 06:56:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.591 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.591 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, BAYES_999=0.2, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nmCH6Tw2qN7q for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 06:56:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from nm25-vm5.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (nm25-vm5.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [98.138.91.247]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 65A891A1A25 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 06:56:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1422370583; bh=obVfKnvTd56TNEP/SN0pgNcqVZfd9LGxWl3BBCY56Tw=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:From:Subject; b=GdlSE0QE5MLcNVNDjy7s7inu/oUaZ5kNKgBwXOzmGRATLQNPUUMMlDKYrzOUapvZieOD+R7hffiNGaoIv3aQ5+no9sxwcw3yfY1JG9y66S1TgMW4URPaDpMozlxYJabV+yQ/2gTu7WxaQDHBaYxyXNd1t5Rrg81antsw9GDR1mZYo06Np9AgD7tOgi1C4uHmDM35vDgGBrW/fNrp7ptNsGIJOB6UuE63vwebwbfkL83iqjacuKJTNKBuimFpdHMRX6NcPL83um8VTIMCTGJtC+OzXhaBPuo12bIgP14n3GR/kC5CsSHC1WDTGsLbUJYDB+9VL53WrXx4FtHlz2wd6A== Received: from [98.138.226.180] by nm25.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Jan 2015 14:56:23 -0000 Received: from [98.138.88.235] by tm15.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Jan 2015 14:56:23 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1035.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Jan 2015 14:56:23 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 696887.8488.bm@omp1035.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-YMail-OSG: watAF14VM1kKkCvMOYRkV6TN.OfZ4siMVLmwagfLUqAgl6CLm5cbul2kZYq5P9f krxrJmuf7ejrNs6smTAXf0tHLUK1HL1Y.hAS4UroWKRFdOwTk5mmflmE4RAMtBzh11QjFzZ9Pc_q T6KbktL3j0in7suCFNj_Tm44kYW76w13vHvieTRoiUm4H0t7D6rOghYDSrXJZ385LZGQWElNw1FJ 0RtJxHydQysR29yQSLsUn_c6LWn5BlX7fq2MCsgB0jLQioYhi4.MemdMcwRGUv43i9MYSg.y.2e. Umn.AdGTpI51LmG_qyy1SAfIs.oM5Jgn6nsd0bg2i_JoXwJDoggv8doZ8TU5RLBnYnwtDUys5MPp td.jiYXcWyQwCx0gu6SdEMgFenz6ItFXKGdHrd5lMLIqWFl025GwqCxbHx7YYhbgMzClxJpzoow5 BpIGOBrn8HjAkfeB7RL.Mch.g0a_YSv4n0mwpUa8WJDNYpxMekGiJOZ3cleEESlDqPp3sVX.GehF ozA-- Received: by 98.138.105.244; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 14:56:23 +0000 Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 14:56:22 +0000 (UTC) From: Rachel Chibale Zimba To: "anima@ietf.org" Message-ID: <1535697063.730717.1422370582758.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_730716_1839101168.1422370582754" Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 15:37:09 -0800 Subject: [Anima] Please add me to your mailing list. X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Rachel Chibale Zimba List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 14:58:46 -0000 ------=_Part_730716_1839101168.1422370582754 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, Please add me to your mailing list. I got this email address after reading the article published in the November 2014 issue of the IETF journal. Thanks Rachel ------=_Part_730716_1839101168.1422370582754 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hello,

Please add me to your mailing list. I got this email address after reading the article published in the November 2014 issue of the IETF journal.

Thanks

Rachel
------=_Part_730716_1839101168.1422370582754-- From nobody Tue Jan 27 16:44:19 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2B4E1A00FF for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 16:44:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4Z0_Wt8L__8g for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 16:44:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 91F521A00F8 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 16:44:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BRU70078; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 00:44:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.35) by lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.240) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 00:44:11 +0000 Received: from NKGEML512-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.106]) by nkgeml404-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.35]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 08:44:01 +0800 From: Sheng Jiang To: "Liubing (Leo)" , Brian E Carpenter , "anima@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Anima] objectives was: RE: GDNP open issues (draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01) Thread-Index: AQHQOh25O+5STMu9RUGHbYvmT/ICLZzUsDxw Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 00:44:01 +0000 Message-ID: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B043673@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <54C6E23A.2040209@gmail.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B042803@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <8AE0F17B87264D4CAC7DE0AA6C406F457CE9C9B7@nkgeml506-mbx.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <8AE0F17B87264D4CAC7DE0AA6C406F457CE9C9B7@nkgeml506-mbx.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.99.197] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Anima] objectives was: RE: GDNP open issues (draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01) X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 00:44:16 -0000 Pj4gPiAgbyAgSXMgaXQgcmVhc29uYWJsZSB0byBjb25zaWRlciB0aGF0IGEgRGlzY292ZXJ5IE9i 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base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Anima] objectives was: RE: GDNP open issues (draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01) X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 00:53:05 -0000 Pj4+PiAgbyAgSXMgaXQgcmVhc29uYWJsZSB0byBjb25zaWRlciB0aGF0IGEgRGlzY292ZXJ5IE9i amVjdGl2ZSBpcyByZWFsbHkNCj4+Pj4gICAgIGp1c3QgYSBzZXQgb2Ygc3BlY2lmaWMgTmVnb3Rp YXRpb24gYW5kL29yIFN5bmNocm9uaXphdGlvbg0KPj4+PiAgICAgT2JqZWN0aXZlcz8NCj4+Pg0K Pj4+IEkgYW0gbm90IHN1cmUgd2h5IHdlIG5lZWQgdG8gZGlzdGluZ3Vpc2ggRGlzY292ZXJ5IE9i amVjdGl2ZSwgTmVnb3RpYXRpb24NCj4+PiBPYmplY3RpdmUgYW5kIFN5bmNocm9uaXphdGlvbiBP YmplY3RpdmUuIEZvciBtZSwgYWxsIHRoZXNlIG9iamVjdGl2ZXMgYXJlDQo+Pj4gZXF1YWwuIFRo ZXkgYXJlIG1hbmFnZW1lbnQgb2JqZWN0aXZlcy4gVGhleSBhcmUgdGhlIG9iamVjdGl2ZXMNCj5h 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2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 798541A0095 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 16:59:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3dtJcdAcivhY for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 16:59:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ECE9C1A006B for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 16:59:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BOM52227; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 00:59:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.38) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 00:59:34 +0000 Received: from NKGEML512-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.106]) by nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.38]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 08:59:27 +0800 From: Sheng Jiang To: Brian E Carpenter , "anima@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Mechanisms to avoid loop dependencies was: RE: [Anima] GDNP open issues (draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01) Thread-Index: AQHQOcwfJCsnljNkckaMbYoRq0Qd/pzTfkTQgABO5gCAAOpCAA== Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 00:59:26 +0000 Message-ID: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B0436B5@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <54C6E23A.2040209@gmail.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B042621@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <54C7E02A.5000602@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <54C7E02A.5000602@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.99.197] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Anima] Mechanisms to avoid loop dependencies was: RE: GDNP open issues (draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01) X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 00:59:39 -0000 Pj4+ICBvICBXZSBtZW50aW9uIGNvbnZlcmdlbmNlIG1lY2hhbmlzbXMgYW5kIG1lY2hhbmlzbXMg dG8gYXZvaWQNCj4+PiAgICAgbG9vcCBkZXBlbmRlbmNpZXMuIFRoZXNlIGlzc3VlcyBuZWVkIG1v cmUgd29yay4NCj4+DQo+PiBQZXJzb25hbGx5LCBJIGRvbid0IHRoaW5rIHdlIGNvdWxkIGNvbXBs 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b25hYmxlIGRlc2lnbi4gOikNCg0KQmVzdCByZWdhcmRzLA0KDQpTaGVuZw0KDQo+ICAgIEJyaWFu DQo+DQo+Pg0KPj4gQmVzdCByZWdhcmRzLA0KPj4NCj4+IFNoZW5nDQo+Pg0KPj4+IFJlZ2FyZHMs DQo+Pj4gICAgQnJpYW4NCj4+Pg0KPj4+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+Pj4gQW5pbWEgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+Pj4gQW5pbWFAaWV0Zi5v cmcNCj4+PiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2FuaW1hDQo= From nobody Tue Jan 27 19:07:19 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 933A21A1B6B for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 19:07:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m2FlBpbaECP6 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 19:07:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 42C041A1B6C for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 19:07:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BRU78438; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 03:07:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.38) by lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.241) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 03:07:05 +0000 Received: from NKGEML505-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.222]) by nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.38]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 11:06:59 +0800 From: "Fuyu (Eleven)" To: Brian E Carpenter Thread-Topic: unsolicited Response message//RE: [Anima] GDNP open issues (draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01) Thread-Index: AQHQOcwd8Qy4VA6WFEyE+Ll/cJCRHJzUzsJw Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 03:06:58 +0000 Message-ID: References: <54C6E23A.2040209@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <54C6E23A.2040209@gmail.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.99.184] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: "anima@ietf.org" Subject: [Anima] unsolicited Response message//RE: GDNP open issues (draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01) X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 03:07:12 -0000 Hi Brian=20 For my opinion, I don't think it is reasonable to allow an unsolicited Resp= onse message in Discovery process.=20 It may increase extra traffic and the content in unsolicited Response messa= ge may not be exactly what the counterpart want. So it may not speed up the discovery process. Another potential issues is t= hat the Discovery initiator may be subjected to Dos attack. But I think it is reasonable to design unsolicited Response message in Sync= hronization process to synchronize the status of the objective since the st= atus of counterpart had been changed. Cheers Yu -----Original Message----- From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E Carpenter Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 8:56 AM To: anima@ietf.org Subject: [Anima] GDNP open issues (draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01) Hi, We'd like to get a sense of where to focus discussion leading up to Dallas.= There are a lot of open issues in the -01 draft. Below I've extracted (and shortened) some that seem most important to me pe= rsonally. I've re-ordered them a bit too. Please send feedback (maybe set t= he Subject of your message accordingly). Of course this list is not exclusive, and comments on any aspect of the dra= ft are welcome. o DTLS or TLS vs built-in security mechanism. The current approach requires expensive asymmetric cryptographic calculations for every message. (D)TLS has startup overheads but cheaper crypto per message. o We mention convergence mechanisms and mechanisms to avoid loop dependencies. These issues need more work. o Is it reasonable to consider that a Discovery Objective is really just a set of specific Negotiation and/or Synchronization Objectives? o Would a DISCOVERY(ANY) mechanism be useful during bootstrapping? o Would it be reasonable to allow an unsolicited Response message with Discovery Objective content, to speed up discovery during bootstrapping? o Should we consider a distributed or centralised DNS-like approach to discovery (after the initial discovery needed for bootstrapping)? o DoS Attack Protection needs work. Ideas welcome. o Alternatives to TLV format. It may be useful to provide a method of carrying negotiation/synch objectives in pre-existing formats. o UDP vs TCP: If messages exceed a reasonable MTU, a TCP mode may be necessary. Regards, Brian _______________________________________________ Anima mailing list Anima@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima From nobody Tue Jan 27 20:00:59 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D5401A1B96 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 20:00:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pPJ8XRAj128T for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 20:00:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F162C1A1B9C for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 20:00:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml406-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BOM62480; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 04:00:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.33) by lhreml406-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.243) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 04:00:53 +0000 Received: from NKGEML512-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.106]) by nkgeml402-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.33]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 12:00:50 +0800 From: Sheng Jiang To: Brian E Carpenter , Hannes Tschofenig , "anima@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Anima] Basic Questions Thread-Index: AQHQOjmQZg9uN7aag0i3PsMtY81XqJzT1zUAgADzx4A= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 04:00:49 +0000 Message-ID: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B043802@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <54C79A61.3000303@gmx.net> <54C7E94E.30309@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <54C7E94E.30309@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.99.197] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Anima] Basic Questions X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 04:00:58 -0000 Pj4gYSkgV2hhdCB1c2UgY2FzZXMgYXJlIHlvdSBndXlzIHRyeWluZyB0byBzb2x2ZT8NCj4NCj5X ZWxsLi4uIGV2ZXJ5dGhpbmcuDQo+DQo+U2VyaW91c2x5LCBJIGRvbid0IGtub3cgaWYgeW91IHdl cmUgYXQgdGhlIG9yaWdpbmFsIFVDQU4gQk9GLA0KPmJ1dCB3ZSBkaWQgc3VydmV5IGEgd2lkZSBy YW5nZSAoNykgb2YgdXNlIGNhc2VzLiBUaGUgbWF0ZXJpYWxzDQo+YXJlIGF0IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cu 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X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 137901A0024 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 22:02:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vz0QtqLxXA3k for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 22:02:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 865B71A001B for ; Tue, 27 Jan 2015 22:01:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BOM69709; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 06:01:57 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML401-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.32) by lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.240) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 06:01:47 +0000 Received: from NKGEML512-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.106]) by nkgeml401-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.32]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 14:01:36 +0800 From: Sheng Jiang To: "Fuyu (Eleven)" , Brian E Carpenter Thread-Topic: [Anima] unsolicited Response message//RE: GDNP open issues (draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01) Thread-Index: AQHQOqrAiJ5kuvXlC0GyH9btFuBrLJzVB/nw Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 06:01:36 +0000 Message-ID: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B04385F@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <54C6E23A.2040209@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: 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X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+QW5pbWEgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+QW5pbWFAaWV0Zi5v cmcNCj5odHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2FuaW1hDQo= From nobody Wed Jan 28 00:07:45 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03D6D1A00EF for ; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 00:07:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.401 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.401 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MANGLED_ANIMAL=2.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mXeQh1eoKYeY for ; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 00:07:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailscan1.extendcp.co.uk (mailscan28.extendcp.co.uk [176.32.228.2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 043B01A00E5 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 00:07:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailscanlb0.hi.local ([10.0.44.160] helo=mailscan8.hi.local) by mailscan-g66.hi.local with esmtp (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1YGNf1-0002If-7N; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 08:07:39 +0000 Received: from mailscanlb0.hi.local ([10.0.44.160] helo=www.outitgoes.com) by mailscan8.hi.local with esmtps (UNKNOWN:DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1YGNey-0006Iz-Au; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 08:07:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by webmail6.hi.local with esmtp (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1YGNey-000674-7p; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 08:07:36 +0000 Message-Id: From: "Jonathan Hansford" To: "Rachel Chibale Zimba" , anima@ietf.org X-Mailer: Atmail 6.6.0.11156 X-Originating-IP: 10.0.1.197 in-reply-to: <1535697063.730717.1422370582758.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 08:07:36 +0000 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_e9035f2cdc943db30bcb4b3e188e3aeb" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Authenticated-As: jonathan@hansfords.net Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Anima] Please add me to your mailing list. X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 08:07:43 -0000 --=_e9035f2cdc943db30bcb4b3e188e3aeb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rachel,=0A=0AYou can add yourself to the mailing list at=0Ahttps://www.i= etf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima [1] =0A=0AJonathan=0A=0A----- Original Me= ssage -----=0AFrom: "Rachel Chibale Zimba" =0ATo:"anima@ietf.org" =0ACc:= =0ASent:Tue, 27 Jan 2015 14:56:22 +0000 (UTC)=0ASubject:[Anima] Please a= dd me to your mailing list.=0A=0AHello,=0APlease add me to your mailing= list. I got this email address after=0Areading the article published in= the November 2014 issue of the IETF=0Ajournal.=0AThanks=0ARachel =0A=0A= Links:=0A------=0A[1] https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima=0A --=_e9035f2cdc943db30bcb4b3e188e3aeb Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rachel,

You can add yourself to the= mailing list at https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima

Jonathan

----- Original Message -----
From:
"Rachel Chibale Zimba" <zimba_c@yahoo.com>
=
To:
"anima@ietf.org" <ani= ma@ietf.org>
Cc:

Sent:Tue, 27 Jan 2015 14:56:22 +0000= (UTC)
Subject:
[Anima] Pleas= e add me to your mailing list.


=
Hello,
Please add me to your mailing list. I got thi= s email address after reading the article published in the November 2014= issue of the IETF journal.

Thanks

Rache= l
=0A --=_e9035f2cdc943db30bcb4b3e188e3aeb-- From nobody Wed Jan 28 00:15:35 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F19DF1A00EF for ; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 00:15:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19kRrPUCa2f1 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 00:15:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 081791A00EA for ; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 00:15:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BOM81856; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 08:15:21 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.33) by lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 08:15:20 +0000 Received: from NKGEML512-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.106]) by nkgeml402-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.33]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 16:15:13 +0800 From: Sheng Jiang To: Jonathan Hansford , Rachel Chibale Zimba , "anima@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Anima] Please add me to your mailing list. Thread-Index: AQHQOooz50Ytg9GlREKF5LfQyYRW3JzUp8IAgACHj9A= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 08:15:12 +0000 Message-ID: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B043971@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <1535697063.730717.1422370582758.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.99.197] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B043971nkgeml512mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Anima] Please add me to your mailing list. 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X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41B191A8AC2 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 18:10:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fa1CK6SWmiDq for ; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 18:10:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1EC8D1A8AC0 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 18:10:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BON61809; Thu, 29 Jan 2015 02:10:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.38) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Thu, 29 Jan 2015 02:10:07 +0000 Received: from NKGEML505-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.222]) by nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.38]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Thu, 29 Jan 2015 10:09:55 +0800 From: "Fuyu (Eleven)" To: Sheng Jiang , Brian E Carpenter Thread-Topic: [Anima] unsolicited Response message//RE: GDNP open issues (draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01) Thread-Index: AQHQO2is1QHpwdvCEkqbod3bcDzxqA== Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 02:09:54 +0000 Message-ID: References: <54C6E23A.2040209@gmail.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B04385F@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B04385F@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: 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([2401:c80:3:0:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ok9sm6170191pbb.52.2015.01.28.19.58.40 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 28 Jan 2015 19:58:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <54C9AFF6.4030202@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 16:58:46 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Fuyu (Eleven)" , Sheng Jiang References: <54C6E23A.2040209@gmail.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B04385F@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: "anima@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Anima] unsolicited Response message//RE: GDNP open issues (draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01) X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 03:58:48 -0000 On 29/01/2015 15:09, Fuyu (Eleven) wrote: > Hi Sheng, > >> So, Brian, I guess Yu's message implied a suggestion: you may need to first describe a suitable requirement/scenario/use case. Without it, we may not be able to validate the design. > > Yes, a description of the requirement/scenario/use case will make sense. It would have to be a negotiation objective that a majority of nodes will want to negotiate, to justify an unsolicited broadcast. And I'm not sure I have an eaxmple for that. Any ideas? Brian > Thanks > Yu > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sheng Jiang > Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2015 2:02 PM > To: Fuyu (Eleven); Brian E Carpenter > Cc: anima@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Anima] unsolicited Response message//RE: GDNP open issues (draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01) > >>> For my opinion, I don't think it is reasonable to allow an unsolicited >>> Response message in Discovery process. >>> It may increase extra traffic and the content in unsolicited Response >>> message may not be exactly what the counterpart want. > >> Hi, Yu, > >> When discussion unsolicited Response message, it is based on there are some mechanism on the autonomic network node has some hints to predict the counterpart wants the objective in the message. Some example, could be based on previous discovery message or a current discovery message that tries to discover an associated objective. > >> So, Brian, I guess Yu's message implied a suggestion: you may need to first describe a suitable requirement/scenario/use case. Without it, we may not be able to validate the design. > >> Best regards, > >> Sheng > >>> So it may not speed up the discovery process. Another potential issues >>> is that the Discovery initiator may be subjected to Dos attack. >>> But I think it is reasonable to design unsolicited Response message in >>> Synchronization process to synchronize the status of the objective >>> since the status of counterpart had been changed. >> >>> Cheers >>> Yu >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E >> Carpenter >> Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 8:56 AM >> To: anima@ietf.org >> Subject: [Anima] GDNP open issues >> (draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01) >> >> Hi, >> >> We'd like to get a sense of where to focus discussion leading up to Dallas. >> There are a lot of open issues in the -01 draft. >> Below I've extracted (and shortened) some that seem most important to >> me personally. I've re-ordered them a bit too. Please send feedback >> (maybe set the Subject of your message accordingly). >> >> Of course this list is not exclusive, and comments on any aspect of the >> draft are welcome. >> >> o DTLS or TLS vs built-in security mechanism. The current >> approach requires expensive asymmetric cryptographic >> calculations for every message. (D)TLS has startup >> overheads but cheaper crypto per message. >> >> o We mention convergence mechanisms and mechanisms to avoid >> loop dependencies. These issues need more work. >> >> o Is it reasonable to consider that a Discovery Objective is really >> just a set of specific Negotiation and/or Synchronization >> Objectives? >> >> o Would a DISCOVERY(ANY) mechanism be useful during bootstrapping? >> >> o Would it be reasonable to allow an unsolicited Response message >> with Discovery Objective content, to speed up discovery during >> bootstrapping? >> >> o Should we consider a distributed or centralised DNS-like approach >> to discovery (after the initial discovery needed for >> bootstrapping)? >> >> o DoS Attack Protection needs work. Ideas welcome. >> >> o Alternatives to TLV format. It may be useful to provide a method >> of carrying negotiation/synch objectives in pre-existing formats. >> >> o UDP vs TCP: If messages exceed a reasonable MTU, a TCP mode >> may be necessary. >> >> Regards, >> Brian >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Anima mailing list >> Anima@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Anima mailing list >> Anima@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima From nobody Thu Jan 29 12:56:00 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08FE11A6FEF for ; Thu, 29 Jan 2015 12:55:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uGP4Bvqm2j60 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 2015 12:55:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x232.google.com (mail-pa0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::232]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DF4EC1A1AFF for ; Thu, 29 Jan 2015 12:55:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f50.google.com with SMTP id rd3so43343615pab.9 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 2015 12:55:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=BSkWdHdCvBdewYBAmfPlJ0R83vpymaF1Q6nYy/+WpKg=; b=p4sYIeBCmkKR2bKXKMeV5IaRsfFL2TkMe8I1mvA2zelkdrK7/zveNqDS5oMpudQD4A nR+6LzfS+1m1WNpstkypQjvP8TuRGWyusVFUudGXju3zuV9OWcUy5ch5CxzFw9QId8gv 1pocXtj9eAUt7kBoP2o3bRJTvnyw3KDmOoG+/7wP2emDeEXSQ16HFkuAOp57v5OHEyXN sw/xtVbg/uPqjVODQJ5mJvt+ALpnI9dfIT2q7LS3UCFu0bJejevehOkm8ipnuhUHN1jB M7nWZCx07mvZ8O8MyjWe7ErYtOjhaGpZt6+ng5TZHBZyX5Wo7Q/Hw1clk+xVV49K6uoq kv1A== X-Received: by 10.66.159.164 with SMTP id xd4mr3827817pab.54.1422564956204; Thu, 29 Jan 2015 12:55:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2401:c80:3:0:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2401:c80:3:0:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ca2sm8609780pbc.68.2015.01.29.12.55.53 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 29 Jan 2015 12:55:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <54CA9E61.3030906@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 09:56:01 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: anima References: <29880.1416777310@sandelman.ca> <20141129012623.GA25550@cisco.com> <547A16A2.9030904@gmail.com> <26092.1417370244@sandelman.ca> <547B6B1D.9090003@gmail.com> <25412.1417388863@sandelman.ca> <547BC1C3.2010704@gmail.com> <11068.1417441578@sandelman.ca> <547CC20E.7080100@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <547CC20E.7080100@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Anima] eckert-anima-stable-connectivity X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 20:55:59 -0000 Hi authors of -stable-connectivity, You can probably guess what my question is ;-) Any plans for an update soon? Brian On 02/12/2014 08:31, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Hi Michael, > > On 02/12/2014 02:46, Michael Richardson wrote: >> Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> >> (I will claim: more than you many people), but I do not think the upper >> >> 64-bits of an address can be private. Remember: the traffic isn't going >> >> anywhere: BCP38 filtering at some point will kill it outbound, and there can >> >> never be any inbound traffic responding. >> >> > Exactly, and site egresses should stop it even before it hits any BCP38 filters. >> > So I have never had any real level of concern about ULA leakage; I don't >> > really see why it's going to happen more than say Net 10 leakage does >> > today. >> >> I agree that it's on the same scale as net 10 leakage, but I expect it to be >> slightly worse scale if systems are auto-generating ULAs a lot. >> >> net 10 leakage is already a big deal in some places: IPv6 ULAs have the >> advantage that when that winXP box bridges two "net 10" zones unintentionally, >> the odds of overlap are very low. This kind of event seems to happen essentially >> daily on the university campus where the CREDIL office lives... >> >> >> A BCP38-related question about Anima Control Plane would be: what kind of >> >> filtering is appropriate. Consider two networks which merge... does one >> >> renumber? >> >> > Yes, both splits and merges are an issue. In the "professionally managed" >> > networks that anima is scoped for, hopefully there will not be unplanned >> > merges, but we do need to consider these issues. >> >> I'm thinking about an ISP who connects to IXs. The actual hour/minute when >> the fiber gets plugged in is often not known. If ANIMA is going to be able >> to manage equipment at the far end of one of those links, my understanding is >> that the ACP network might come "up" even when the link is administratively >> "down". >> In ISP networks I'm familiar with, IX connects/disconnects/fiber-moves occur >> several times a week. > > That's an interesting use case, indeed. I assume the ISP's device would > have a secure identity (as far as the ISP is concerned), but would it come > up with a link local address first? If so, it would need to be bootstrapped > into the ACP using that address. > >> >> >> I propose that we adopt some terminology from chemistry for our networks. >> >> >> >> Individual ANIMA entites are atoms... they can form bonds to other atoms to >> >> form molecules. Molecules may coalese to form bigger molecules. >> >> >> >> A molecule (can become)/is "grounded" (a RPL term) to a substrate >> >> (i.e. a NOC). We may have a use for the various kinds of bonds (covalent, >> >> ionic, hydrogen, van-der-Walls)... I would claim that molecules that >> >> spontaneously form should use ULA-R until such time as they become grounded, >> >> at which point they would adopt the numbering from the NOC (which I suggest >> >> should be NCN or ULA-C). >> >> > But there's no such thing as ULA-C. Also, the way enterprise networks >> > are extended is a bit different from IoT or homenets in this respect. I think >> > the model needs to be flexible on what kind of prefix is used. I do agree >> > with your implication that renumbering of the ACP needs to be regarded >> > as a routine event (e.g., assume renumbering might happen after every >> > significant outage and again after the outage is fixed). Node identities >> > should matter a lot more than node addresses. >> >> a) I think that perhaps defining ULA-C could be in scope. >> (If we are using RPL with /128 routes, we might need a single /64 for the ACP) >> I really want a stable, identifiable numbering space for the ACP, and I >> really think it should be distinct from the enterprise/ISP 's GUA. >> Being distinct just makes ACLs, etc. SO MUCH easier for humans to understand. > > Well yes. But you haven't persuaded me about ULA-C. > >> b) what do you think of the atom/molecule and bond terminology? > > It's a nice analogy. Whether we actually need the terminology is > a bit less clear to me. Maybe the ACP/stable connectivity authors > have an opinion... >> >> c) I don't think renumbering might occur due to outages; I think that is >> probably wrong. Okay, the machine that was off might generate a new ULA >> when it turns back on and hasn't got connectivity... but I'm suggesting >> that it would renumber again as soon as it forms a bond. Since the NOC >> would never renumber, once things connect to the NOC, the original >> numbering would resume. > > You could make it a matter of definition that the NOC never renumbers, but > after a power fail, every device that lost all its state will be effectively > renumbered anyway. I think that's why Fred Baker says from time to time > that the real problem is numbering, not re-numbering. But you're right, > if there is a regional failure, the region will probably reboot itself > until it succeeds in rejoining the ACP and NOC, and will then have to > renumber. > > Brian > From nobody Thu Jan 29 12:56:52 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D44001A6FF2 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 2015 12:56:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ItG2iMcX0HDY for ; Thu, 29 Jan 2015 12:56:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x22b.google.com (mail-pa0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22b]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 31F891A1AFF for ; Thu, 29 Jan 2015 12:56:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f43.google.com with SMTP id eu11so43435174pac.2 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 2015 12:56:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=iit1hh+tjsVSCjDwzpx32lyY5A9VWw0GVHy+/BzISiY=; b=KvfGCOYkzy91httPrrlvqjcoOioi8h5jDKQ6L/ZPZwKeLByjib2bRSoCPV8f21DW3S /+j24nMQcxzVt2sR8zJShTieAoVLsoVs/IGcHvKsyrsPXu8ynU5x6v4mXbsP/qulZOsz Xai0y2cA7Pb+kntMKdc9XrNO9bB3ljOGVXtvWJbdLIwKp3F/9aTP3cq+KA5gveBUhW2i IELLLzeqwK6GZsxNUaqcx9soO+6FNt/JXN57eq3PQnmMKXdKdhOpGS13kxHOArL4UZ+P toluROAiVAwOW5s5KLw2PjzBpOIMbLc1+cuX3TmaFeBW43LPvx381s5r0rBQ8wHaateg DGhw== X-Received: by 10.70.46.98 with SMTP id u2mr3880153pdm.26.1422565005550; Thu, 29 Jan 2015 12:56:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2401:c80:3:0:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2401:c80:3:0:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id or4sm8746442pab.30.2015.01.29.12.56.43 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 29 Jan 2015 12:56:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <54CA9E92.10802@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 09:56:50 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: anima@ietf.org References: <20141017131337.4423.84144.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5457F566.4080409@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <5457F566.4080409@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane-00.txt X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 20:56:48 -0000 Hi authors of -autonomic-control-plane, I was thinking of reviewing this draft as a potential application of GDNP, but before I do that, are you planning an update soon? Brian On 04/11/2014 10:36, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Hi, > > This draft seems fairly clear to me, though I assume it will > evolve as other aspects of anima become clear. The proposal > to use a ULA prefix (section 3.7) seems good, since it > decouples the ACP from all external addressing considerations > and will work from a pure factory-reset condition. However, > it does raise a question (which also came up in homenet > recently). What happens if the network partitions? The ACP > will automatically partition too, but it will presumably keep > the same /48 ULA prefix everywhere. Does the partitioned network > retain the same domain ID in both parts? What happends in the > part that doesn't include the trust anchor? What happens if the > network recombines - will there be a risk of clashing subnets > created during the partition? > > Also what happens if two previously unrelated networks combine? > > Brian > From nobody Thu Jan 29 23:29:02 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 123C01A898F for ; Thu, 29 Jan 2015 23:29:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.312 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.312 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iv6nDhzhb5XM for ; Thu, 29 Jan 2015 23:28:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 920B51A6D3F for ; Thu, 29 Jan 2015 23:28:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BOO83719; Fri, 30 Jan 2015 07:28:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.35) by lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Fri, 30 Jan 2015 07:28:23 +0000 Received: from NKGEML505-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.222]) by nkgeml404-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.35]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Fri, 30 Jan 2015 15:28:14 +0800 From: "Fuyu (Eleven)" To: Brian E Carpenter Thread-Topic: [Anima] unsolicited Response message//RE: GDNP open issues (draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01) Thread-Index: AQHQO2is1QHpwdvCEkqbod3bcDzxqJzV8tQAgAHxHsA= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 07:28:13 +0000 Message-ID: References: <54C6E23A.2040209@gmail.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B04385F@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <54C9AFF6.4030202@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <54C9AFF6.4030202@gmail.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.99.184] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: "anima@ietf.org" , Sheng Jiang Subject: Re: [Anima] unsolicited Response message//RE: GDNP open issues (draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01) X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2015 07:29:01 -0000 SGkgQnJpYW4sDQoNCkZvciBleGFtcGxlLCB0aGUgYXV0b25vbWljIG5ldHdvcmsgbm9kZSBzZW5k 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b3RpYXRpb24vc3luY2ggb2JqZWN0aXZlcyBpbiBwcmUtZXhpc3RpbmcgZm9ybWF0cy4NCj4+DQo+ PiAgbyAgVURQIHZzIFRDUDogSWYgbWVzc2FnZXMgZXhjZWVkIGEgcmVhc29uYWJsZSBNVFUsIGEg VENQIG1vZGUNCj4+ICAgICBtYXkgYmUgbmVjZXNzYXJ5Lg0KPj4NCj4+IFJlZ2FyZHMsDQo+PiAg ICBCcmlhbg0KPj4NCj4+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fDQo+PiBBbmltYSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4+IEFuaW1hQGlldGYub3JnDQo+PiBodHRw czovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2FuaW1hDQo+Pg0KPj4gX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4+IEFuaW1hIG1haWxpbmcg bGlzdA0KPj4gQW5pbWFAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4v bGlzdGluZm8vYW5pbWENCg== From nobody Fri Jan 30 16:34:34 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EEAC1A1B18; Fri, 30 Jan 2015 16:34:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4gksYA4RnnSw; Fri, 30 Jan 2015 16:34:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76E9F1A87E7; Fri, 30 Jan 2015 16:34:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78340200A7; Fri, 30 Jan 2015 19:41:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 359B8637F6; Fri, 30 Jan 2015 19:34:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2168F637EC; Fri, 30 Jan 2015 19:34:23 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: "Hedanping \(Ana\)" In-Reply-To: <77FA386512F0D748BC7C02C36EB1106D921776@szxeml557-mbs.china.huawei.com> References: <77FA386512F0D748BC7C02C36EB1106D921776@szxeml557-mbs.china.huawei.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 24.4.2 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Archived-At: Cc: 6tisch-security@ietf.org, anima@ietf.org, "6lo@ietf.org" <6lo@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [Anima] [6lo] Comments needed for Security Bootstrapping of IEEE 802.15.4 based Internet of Things X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2015 00:34:29 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have added a number of CCs, I think that this fits into ANIMA best. Hedanping (Ana) wrote: > A new draft is submitted, it's about the security bootstrapping > architecture and methods for IoT networks that implement IETF protoco= ls > (e.g. 6LoWPAN, 6lo, RPL, AODV, DSR) over IEEE 802.15.4. > Two types of bootstrapping methods are developed: network level > bootstrapping and joining device level bootstrapping > The link is: > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-he-iot-security-bootstrapping-00 I read the document with great interest. I found that you explained the incremental boot-strapping process quite wel= l, and nobody has clearly articulated the process yet. People have just assum= ed that everyone knows this process, but really it needs to get written down, = so I thank you for doing that. Given that: Because IEEE 802.15.4 maximum payload size is 128 Bytes, a standard security bootstrapping protocol should be light-weight with low complexity. The protocol must allow for commissioning of devices I was surprised that the draft then suggested EAP with PANA as a transport: If EAP is used, PANA can be used to relay the authentication message from configured FFDs to 6LBR. If the validation is successful, the IP address and network key are generated and delivered to the FFD. But, EAP-TLS with PANA is exactly what the Zigbee IP specification has specified. Do you envision any changes from that specification? A minority of people had prefered this mechanism for 6tisch-security, but none stepped forward to write up that mechanism. Perhaps this draft could fulfill that need? You write that the IP address would be generated; usually that occurs via distribution of PIOs via ND (router-adveristments) or RPL. Were you going = to suggest something else here? From=20the ANIMA and 6tisch-security point of view, my view is that this is= all about the choice of certificates for the TLS setup. Do you have any view on how that might work? The 6tisch-security bootstrap process aims to create a YANG/CBOR-over-CoAP-over-DTLS session between a Join Coordinator and the Joining Node: over that management link, security (and timeslot scheduling) would be provisioned. =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBVMwjDoCLcPvd0N1lAQKhTAf/Y7HQXQmf2De47QLb07d2fxnXXPu7kuhh cRGU3b1hDZQjCzETh31y/j8+dqD0hEkNHDcVN4tVmi6+f9b3MN2NdKS1v7nJDl1G LVIo1et8A11ajmi02HDL+q7xppkzNQ9zGLL8m2s0resGEtvjfezeYi9RVZ2H541x FcSyarg6lje5W3jK608oXm2yw1TQ4zCfCeQSFSmhY8z1W9KjgJJBXm7Jz7F1PURG FBkqSTssOs0Aim8K+ifoBDjSk9rk3qkvrQFs9zE/m8r2VHy6KnRdjar2R2h2fbaR 7c29YHzj1A2Jd5fvImaac2a8g7EZzYjgZS9NsKYwIjqo+gG/1LQpxg== =D/Zd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Jan 30 16:49:09 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C2361A87EE for ; Fri, 30 Jan 2015 16:49:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.311 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.311 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, J_CHICKENPOX_102=0.6, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HXDZDLXnRsiz for ; Fri, 30 Jan 2015 16:49:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A4701A012D for ; Fri, 30 Jan 2015 16:49:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB966200A7 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 2015 19:55:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 880AC637F6; Fri, 30 Jan 2015 19:49:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70FB2637EC for ; Fri, 30 Jan 2015 19:49:06 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: "anima\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B042698@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <54C6E23A.2040209@gmail.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B042698@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 24.4.2 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Anima] DISCOVERY(ANY) mechanism was: RE: GDNP open issues (draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01) X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2015 00:49:08 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Sheng Jiang wrote: >> o Would a DISCOVERY(ANY) mechanism be useful during bootstrapping? > This depends on a) how many are ANY, b) how many counterpart may be > discovered. > If ANY is less than twenty or thirty, it may not be a very big > impact. But if ANY is more than a hundred, it may be too much for both > the autonomic network and the initiated node. My guess is we could not > limit how many objectives may be developed in the future. I'm confused in this thread if the cardinality we are talking about is the number of objectives,or the number of respondants. If we are talking about how many peers there might be, then I wonder how many links are actually natively multicast. We don't have coax and ethernet hubs anymore, so a device (L3-aware L2-switch) is always involved in multicasting among a network. If that device speaks GNDP, then the LAN only has two ends. While there likely are lots of L2 switches that won't speak GNDP, I would think that where this is first deployed, in operator and backbone DC networks, that this won't be the case. Even modern wifi is a star-configuration with MIMO antenna, etc. (this scenario is not dissimilar from CDP/LLDP) -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBVMwmgoCLcPvd0N1lAQJFEwf7BAZXSXkmrssaWkn9/YmE/yPuGhC8Na+e 082gMY89Xr1f1r6yF1HJrhcb6BQzntjOjwzVs/JEG7Md8580lhtPM25aUKCm255X KGNjpEn+uwQC8y7E77fEAhG9+mACjNX8qa5OK4YCFbwa4V7xWkuo9APT6EhrwmWL YyYcEB4VT0MXG13tF1fSBo1VStIeCW9kDCC9pTkHqaGxZKbeHRIY5mUMWlN7FtTI gyJyDxj8Lj7qyKhXC3YOSUJTiKwIFtlo5TEoj8XqyfPVuqlJnRMZKd/heF/pZqxR 6FDMf6rnZmmaTRXoOtu16/jceqMelk0ISphNQLe8J/TUv2Iw+uIBGQ== =uTYE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Jan 30 19:35:03 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 744B81A885F for ; Fri, 30 Jan 2015 19:35:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.611 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.611 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, J_CHICKENPOX_102=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5jirpxUOUNfL for ; Fri, 30 Jan 2015 19:35:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 91F991A01F7 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 2015 19:34:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BRX90032; Sat, 31 Jan 2015 03:34:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.38) by lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.241) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.158.1; Sat, 31 Jan 2015 03:34:57 +0000 Received: from NKGEML505-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.222]) by nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.38]) with mapi id 14.03.0158.001; Sat, 31 Jan 2015 11:34:48 +0800 From: Duzongpeng To: Michael Richardson , "anima@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Anima] DISCOVERY(ANY) mechanism was: RE: GDNP open issues (draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01) Thread-Index: AQHQPO++hum9WsiHxUumTsypGb9ZGJzZjUkQ Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2015 03:34:48 +0000 Message-ID: References: <54C6E23A.2040209@gmail.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923B042698@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <9411.1422665346@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <9411.1422665346@sandelman.ca> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.98.160] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: Sheng Jiang Subject: Re: [Anima] DISCOVERY(ANY) mechanism was: RE: GDNP open issues (draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01) X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2015 03:35:01 -0000 Hi Michael: In my understanding, Sheng is talking about the number of objectives, a= nd you are talking about the number of respondents. Some other comments here.=20 The objectives needed to be broadcasted can be further classified. 1. in size, maybe some key elements are short and do not occupied too much= bandwidth, but others not 2. in frequency, maybe some objectives are needed to be updated frequently= , but others not 3. in importance, it is impossible to always broadcast everything, and som= e essential objectives should be identified ... Best regards, Zongpeng Du -----Original Message----- From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Richardson Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2015 8:49 AM To: anima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Anima] DISCOVERY(ANY) mechanism was: RE: GDNP open issues (dr= aft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-01) Sheng Jiang wrote: >> o Would a DISCOVERY(ANY) mechanism be useful during bootstrapping? > This depends on a) how many are ANY, b) how many counterpart may be > discovered. > If ANY is less than twenty or thirty, it may not be a very big > impact. But if ANY is more than a hundred, it may be too much for bot= h > the autonomic network and the initiated node. My guess is we could no= t > limit how many objectives may be developed in the future. I'm confused in this thread if the cardinality we are talking about is the = number of objectives,or the number of respondants. If we are talking about how many peers there might be, then I wonder how ma= ny links are actually natively multicast. We don't have coax and ethernet = hubs anymore, so a device (L3-aware L2-switch) is always involved in multic= asting among a network. If that device speaks GNDP, then the LAN only has = two ends. While there likely are lots of L2 switches that won't speak GNDP, I would t= hink that where this is first deployed, in operator and backbone DC networks, that this won't be the case. Even modern wifi is a star-configuration with MIMO antenna, etc. (this scenario is not dissimilar from CDP/LLDP) -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D = IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-