From nobody Mon Aug 3 05:07:38 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EB611B2D0E for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2015 05:07:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id njlCClG0GjZ9 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2015 05:07:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.86.75]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 79DAB1B2D14 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2015 05:07:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1324; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1438603655; x=1439813255; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=4QIo6SN4CKLsS5itq9aX59wMVIcB0UdA9G73s3qZq8w=; b=fLBuaykjJPvrr1aiOFSk1GuqOnt8FkeazlaTUf+6q1UVcyDldelmXIRO 2Sfv7uDqxqI3RNK7H50n+xYcLjuv0z8BRZ+vFalJFC7QCR5PentFPvLd2 K/TmANGo6BNQP6pR/TWCzFKVizTKFGpyuHlcfMnADQ/wonnzRLM21P6BE k=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0AdAwBKWL9V/5BdJa1bGQEBAYJ+VGkGvEoJgVogCoV5AoEoOBQBAQEBAQEBgQqEIwEBAQEDAQEBNzQLDAQCAQgRBAEBCxQFBAcnCxQJCAEBBAENBQiIJg3JTwEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARMEi0+BPYMaMQcGgxKBFAEElHkBhHqJGIQgj32DZCaCP4E+b4FIgQQBAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.15,601,1432598400"; d="scan'208";a="17272366" Received: from rcdn-core-8.cisco.com ([173.37.93.144]) by rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 03 Aug 2015 12:07:34 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-018.cisco.com (xch-aln-018.cisco.com [173.36.7.28]) by rcdn-core-8.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t73C7XGi002651 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 3 Aug 2015 12:07:33 GMT Received: from xch-aln-018.cisco.com (173.36.7.28) by XCH-ALN-018.cisco.com (173.36.7.28) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1076.9; Mon, 3 Aug 2015 07:07:32 -0500 Received: from xhc-rcd-x03.cisco.com (173.37.183.77) by xch-aln-018.cisco.com (173.36.7.28) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1076.9 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 3 Aug 2015 07:07:32 -0500 Received: from xmb-aln-x14.cisco.com ([169.254.8.39]) by xhc-rcd-x03.cisco.com ([173.37.183.77]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Mon, 3 Aug 2015 07:07:32 -0500 From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" To: Sheng Jiang , anima Thread-Topic: Confirmation of consensus to adopt draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol as ANIMA WG document, ends Aug 12, 2015 Thread-Index: AdDKcJdRoGKHggqWTz+QZQ3kNxTTLQDdFcVQ Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2015 12:07:31 +0000 Message-ID: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2302B7CA@xmb-aln-x14.cisco.com> References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9335@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9335@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.61.107.127] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Anima] Confirmation of consensus to adopt draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol as ANIMA WG document, ends Aug 12, 2015 X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2015 12:07:37 -0000 I support adoption.=20 Michael > -----Original Message----- > From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Sheng Jiang > Sent: 30 July 2015 03:37 > To: anima > Cc: Toerless Eckert (eckert); anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org > Subject: [Anima] Confirmation of consensus to adopt draft-carpenter- > anima-gdn-protocol as ANIMA WG document, ends Aug 12, 2015 >=20 > There was clear consensus for adopting draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol > (it would be renamed after GRASP with the WG consensus) as a ANIMA > working group document in the IETF 93 ANIMA WG meeting. This message > starts a two-week call on confirming the consensus from the WG meeting. >=20 > Title: A Generic Discovery and Negotiation Protocol for Autonomic > Networking > Authors : Carpenter, et al. > Filename: draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol >=20 > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol-04 >=20 > Please express your support or rejection. If you think this document shou= ld > _not_ be adopted, please also explicitly indicate the reasons. >=20 > This adoption call will end on Aug 12, 2015. >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Sheng + Toerless > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima From nobody Mon Aug 3 05:08:17 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBCF81B2D16 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2015 05:08:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uredVAey5xnI for ; 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d="scan'208";a="175056752" Received: from alln-core-6.cisco.com ([173.36.13.139]) by alln-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 03 Aug 2015 12:08:13 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-012.cisco.com (xch-aln-012.cisco.com [173.36.7.22]) by alln-core-6.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t73C8Dl6011667 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 3 Aug 2015 12:08:13 GMT Received: from xch-aln-012.cisco.com (173.36.7.22) by XCH-ALN-012.cisco.com (173.36.7.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1076.9; Mon, 3 Aug 2015 07:08:12 -0500 Received: from xhc-aln-x01.cisco.com (173.36.12.75) by xch-aln-012.cisco.com (173.36.7.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1076.9 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 3 Aug 2015 07:08:12 -0500 Received: from xmb-aln-x14.cisco.com ([169.254.8.39]) by xhc-aln-x01.cisco.com ([173.36.12.75]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Mon, 3 Aug 2015 07:08:12 -0500 From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" To: Duzongpeng , Sheng Jiang , anima Thread-Topic: Confirmation of consensus to adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document, ends Aug 12, 2015 Thread-Index: AdDKcZS9qWoXhWLiQuGo2H32OuhaIAA5ds2wAKNkxCA= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2015 12:08:11 +0000 Message-ID: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2302B7F0@xmb-aln-x14.cisco.com> References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.61.107.127] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Anima] Confirmation of consensus to adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document, ends Aug 12, 2015 X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2015 12:08:16 -0000 Support from my side, too.=20 Michael > -----Original Message----- > From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Duzongpeng > Sent: 31 July 2015 07:11 > To: Sheng Jiang; anima > Cc: Toerless Eckert (eckert); anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Anima] Confirmation of consensus to adopt draft-pritikin- > anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document, ends Aug 12, 2015 >=20 > Hi Dear all, >=20 > I support adoption of this bootstrapping draft. >=20 > Best Regards, > Zongpeng Du >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Sheng Jiang > Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2015 10:44 AM > To: anima > Cc: Toerless Eckert; anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org > Subject: [Anima] Confirmation of consensus to adopt draft-pritikin-anima- > bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document, ends Aug 12, 2015 >=20 > There was clear consensus for adopting draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping= - > keyinfra as a ANIMA working group document in the IETF 93 ANIMA WG > meeting. This message starts a two-week call on confirming the consensus > from the WG meeting. >=20 > Title: Bootstrapping Key Infrastructures > Authors : Pritikin, et al. > Filename: draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra >=20 > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra= -02 >=20 > Please express your support or rejection. If you think this document shou= ld > _not_ be adopted, please also explicitly indicate the reasons. >=20 > This adoption call will end on Aug 12, 2015. >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Sheng + Toerless > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima From nobody Mon Aug 3 05:08:46 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F3071A0363 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 2015 05:08:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wwMI_rkLIXEl for ; 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d="scan'208";a="174492477" Received: from rcdn-core-10.cisco.com ([173.37.93.146]) by alln-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 03 Aug 2015 12:08:42 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-011.cisco.com (xch-aln-011.cisco.com [173.36.7.21]) by rcdn-core-10.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t73C8feq013470 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 3 Aug 2015 12:08:42 GMT Received: from xch-aln-011.cisco.com (173.36.7.21) by XCH-ALN-011.cisco.com (173.36.7.21) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1076.9; Mon, 3 Aug 2015 07:08:41 -0500 Received: from xhc-aln-x02.cisco.com (173.36.12.76) by xch-aln-011.cisco.com (173.36.7.21) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1076.9 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 3 Aug 2015 07:08:41 -0500 Received: from xmb-aln-x15.cisco.com ([169.254.9.148]) by xhc-aln-x02.cisco.com ([173.36.12.76]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Mon, 3 Aug 2015 07:08:40 -0500 From: "Jason Coleman (colemaj)" To: Sheng Jiang , anima Thread-Topic: [Anima] Confirmation of consensus to adopt draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol as ANIMA WG document, ends Aug 12, 2015 Thread-Index: AQHQzeUhng9jLC9ac0imuUx81E7GvQ== Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2015 12:08:40 +0000 Message-ID: <62FB417E-12D5-43C3-8836-BBC455DC52B8@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/15.8.0.150303 x-originating-ip: [173.36.7.26] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <7E420491F9FC9841B2439F2DD1E6E1D4@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Anima] Confirmation of consensus to adopt draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol as ANIMA WG document, ends Aug 12, 2015 X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2015 12:08:44 -0000 SSBzdXBwb3J0IGFkb3B0aW9uIG9mIHRoaXMgZG9jdW1lbnQuDQoNCi0tIA0KSmFzb24gQ29sZW1h biANCg0KDQoNCg0KDQpPbiA3LzI5LzE1LCA5OjM3IFBNLCAiU2hlbmcgSmlhbmciIDxqaWFuZ3No ZW5nQGh1YXdlaS5jb20+IHdyb3RlOg0KDQo+VGhlcmUgd2FzIGNsZWFyIGNvbnNlbnN1cyBmb3Ig YWRvcHRpbmcgZHJhZnQtY2FycGVudGVyLWFuaW1hLWdkbi1wcm90b2NvbCAoaXQgd291bGQgYmUN Cj5yZW5hbWVkIGFmdGVyIEdSQVNQIHdpdGggdGhlIFdHIGNvbnNlbnN1cykgYXMgYSBBTklNQSB3 b3JraW5nIGdyb3VwIGRvY3VtZW50IGluDQo+dGhlIElFVEYgOTMgQU5JTUEgV0cgbWVldGluZy4g VGhpcyBtZXNzYWdlIHN0YXJ0cyBhIHR3by13ZWVrIGNhbGwgb24gY29uZmlybWluZyB0aGUNCj5j b25zZW5zdXMgZnJvbSB0aGUgV0cgbWVldGluZy4NCj4NCj4gIFRpdGxlOiAgICAgIEEgR2VuZXJp YyBEaXNjb3ZlcnkgYW5kIE5lZ290aWF0aW9uIFByb3RvY29sIGZvciBBdXRvbm9taWMgTmV0d29y a2luZw0KPiAgQXV0aG9ycyA6ICAgQ2FycGVudGVyLCBldCBhbC4NCj4gIEZpbGVuYW1lOiAgZHJh ZnQtY2FycGVudGVyLWFuaW1hLWdkbi1wcm90b2NvbA0KPiAgDQo+ICBodHRwczovL3Rvb2xzLmll dGYub3JnL2h0bWwvZHJhZnQtY2FycGVudGVyLWFuaW1hLWdkbi1wcm90b2NvbC0wNA0KPg0KPlBs ZWFzZSBleHByZXNzIHlvdXIgc3VwcG9ydCBvciByZWplY3Rpb24uIElmIHlvdSB0aGluayB0aGlz IGRvY3VtZW50IHNob3VsZCBfbm90XyBiZQ0KPmFkb3B0ZWQsIHBsZWFzZSBhbHNvIGV4cGxpY2l0 bHkgaW5kaWNhdGUgdGhlIHJlYXNvbnMuDQo+DQo+VGhpcyBhZG9wdGlvbiBjYWxsIHdpbGwgZW5k IG9uIEF1ZyAxMiwgMjAxNS4NCj4NCj5SZWdhcmRzLA0KPg0KPlNoZW5nICsgVG9lcmxlc3MNCj5f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPkFuaW1hIG1h aWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPkFuaW1hQGlldGYub3JnDQo+aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1h bi9saXN0aW5mby9hbmltYQ0K From nobody Mon Aug 3 23:20:23 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 093B11B363B for ; 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Tue, 4 Aug 2015 07:20:14 +0100 Received: from NKGEML512-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.33]) by nkgeml401-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.32]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Tue, 4 Aug 2015 14:20:08 +0800 From: Sheng Jiang To: anima Thread-Topic: ANIMA minutes - IETF 93 Thread-Index: AdDOfZdFeLixPRlnSa61VGpR3ep6mg== Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2015 06:20:07 +0000 Message-ID: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB11A7E@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.99.197] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: [Anima] ANIMA minutes - IETF 93 X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2015 06:20:23 -0000 SGksIGFsbCwNCg0KVGhlIG1pbnV0ZXMgZm9yIHRoZSBBTklNQSBzZXNzaW9ucyBhdCBJRVRGOTMg aW4gUHJhZ3VlIGNhbiBiZSBmb3VuZCBhdDoNCg0KaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvcHJvY2Vl ZGluZ3MvOTMvbWludXRlcy9taW51dGVzLTkzLWFuaW1hDQoNCk1hbnkgdGhhbmtzIHRvIEphc29u IENvbGVtYW4gYW5kIEJpbmcgTGl1IGZvciB0YWtpbmcgbWludXRlcy4NCg0KUGxlYXNlIHNlbmQg YW55IGNvcnJlY3Rpb25zIHRvIHRoZSBjaGFpcnMuDQoNCkJlc3QgcmVnYXJkcywNCg0KU2hlbmcg KyBUb2VybGVzcw0KDQoNCg== From nobody Wed Aug 12 02:24:10 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1CCE1A000B for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 02:24:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5AghrSh_uf_p for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 02:24:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 63E271A0007 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 02:24:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BZU02178; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 09:24:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML403-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.34) by lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.217) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 10:24:00 +0100 Received: from NKGEML512-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.33]) by nkgeml403-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.34]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 17:23:54 +0800 From: Sheng Jiang To: anima Thread-Topic: Conclusion: adopt draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane as ANIMA WG document Thread-Index: AQHQ1OCbfDV+mz7YfEaYSJcyBXu3RA== Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 09:23:54 +0000 Message-ID: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCA5@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9389@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9389@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.99.197] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: Toerless Eckert , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: [Anima] Conclusion: adopt draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane as ANIMA WG document X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 09:24:08 -0000 VGhlIGNoYWlycyBjb25jbHVkZSB0aGVyZSBpcyBhIGNvbnNlbnN1cyBpbiB0aGUgQU5JTUEgd29y a2luZyB0byBoYXZlIHRoaXMgZHJhZnQgYmVjb21lIGEgd29ya2luZyBncm91cCBkcmFmdCAtIG5v IG9uZSBoYWQgYW55IG9iamVjdGlvbnMgdG8gYWRvcHRpbmcgdGhlIGRvY3VtZW50IGFuZCBpdCB0 YXJnZXRzIG9uZSBvZiBvdXIgY2hhcnRlcmVkIHdvcmsgaXRlbXMuIFRoZSBhdXRob3JzIHNob3Vs ZCBzdWJtaXQgdGhlIG5leHQgdmVyc2lvbiBhcyBhbiBBTklNQSB3b3JraW5nIGdyb3VwIGRvY3Vt ZW50IChkcmFmdC1pZXRmLWFuaW1hLSotMDApLg0KDQpUaGlzIGF1dGhvcnMgc2hvdWxkIGtlZXAg d29ya2luZyBvbiB0aGlzIGRvY3VtZW50IGFzIGVkaXRvciB0b3dhcmRzIGl0cyBtYXR1cml0eS4g VGhlIGF1dGhvcnMgc2hvdWxkIHJlcG9ydCBhbnkgbWFqb3IgbW9kaWZpY2F0aW9ucyB0byB0aGUg V0csIGVpdGhlciBtYWlsIGxpc3Qgb3IgZmFjZS10by1mYWNlIG1lZXRpbmcsIGFuZCBhY3F1aXJl IGNvbnNlbnN1cyBpbiBBTklNQSBXRy4NCg0KVGhhbmtzLA0KDQpTaGVuZyAmIFRvZXJsZXNzDQoN Cj4tLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KPkZyb206IFNoZW5nIEppYW5nIFttYWlsdG86 amlhbmdzaGVuZ0BodWF3ZWkuY29tXQ0KPlNlbnQ6IFRodXJzZGF5LCBKdWx5IDMwLCAyMDE1IDEw OjQ4IEFNDQo+VG86IGFuaW1hDQo+Q2M6IGFuaW1hLWNoYWlyc0B0b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZzsgVG9l cmxlc3MgRWNrZXJ0DQo+U3ViamVjdDogQ29uZmlybWF0aW9uIG9mIGNvbnNlbnN1cyB0byBhZG9w dA0KPmRyYWZ0LWJlaHJpbmdlci1hbmltYS1hdXRvbm9taWMtY29udHJvbC1wbGFuZSBhcyBBTklN QSBXRyBkb2N1bWVudCwNCj5lbmRzIEF1ZyAxMiwgMjAxNQ0KPg0KPlRoZXJlIHdhcyBjbGVhciBj b25zZW5zdXMgZm9yIGFkb3B0aW5nDQo+ZHJhZnQtYmVocmluZ2VyLWFuaW1hLWF1dG9ub21pYy1j b250cm9sLXBsYW5lDQo+YXMgYSBBTklNQSB3b3JraW5nIGdyb3VwIGRvY3VtZW50IGluIHRoZSBJ RVRGIDkzIEFOSU1BIFdHIG1lZXRpbmcuIFRoaXMNCj5tZXNzYWdlDQo+c3RhcnRzIGEgdHdvLXdl ZWsgY2FsbCBvbiBjb25maXJtaW5nIHRoZSBjb25zZW5zdXMgZnJvbSB0aGUgV0cgbWVldGluZy4N Cj4NCj4gIFRpdGxlOiAgICAgIEFuIEF1dG9ub21pYyBDb250cm9sIFBsYW5lDQo+ICBBdXRob3Jz IDogICBDYXJwZW50ZXIsIGV0IGFsLg0KPiAgRmlsZW5hbWU6ICBkcmFmdC1iZWhyaW5nZXItYW5p bWEtYXV0b25vbWljLWNvbnRyb2wtcGxhbmUNCj4NCj4NCj5odHRwczovL3Rvb2xzLmlldGYub3Jn L2h0bWwvZHJhZnQtYmVocmluZ2VyLWFuaW1hLWF1dG9ub21pYy1jb250cm9sLXBsYW5lLTANCj4z DQo+DQo+UGxlYXNlIGV4cHJlc3MgeW91ciBzdXBwb3J0IG9yIHJlamVjdGlvbi4gSWYgeW91IHRo aW5rIHRoaXMgZG9jdW1lbnQgc2hvdWxkDQo+X25vdF8gYmUNCj5hZG9wdGVkLCBwbGVhc2UgYWxz byBleHBsaWNpdGx5IGluZGljYXRlIHRoZSByZWFzb25zLg0KPg0KPlRoaXMgYWRvcHRpb24gY2Fs bCB3aWxsIGVuZCBvbiBBdWcgMTIsIDIwMTUuDQo+DQo+UmVnYXJkcywNCj4NCj5TaGVuZyArIFRv ZXJsZXNzDQo= From nobody Wed Aug 12 02:27:03 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D1F51A000D for ; 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Wed, 12 Aug 2015 10:26:58 +0100 Received: from NKGEML512-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.33]) by nkgeml406-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.37]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 17:26:52 +0800 From: Sheng Jiang To: anima Thread-Topic: Conclusion: adopt draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol as ANIMA WG document Thread-Index: AQHQ1OEFKapi2B8YekOHDvWM3Y3MKA== Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 09:26:51 +0000 Message-ID: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCB4@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9335@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9335@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.99.197] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: Toerless Eckert , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: [Anima] Conclusion: adopt draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol as ANIMA WG document X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 09:27:02 -0000 VGhlIGNoYWlycyBjb25jbHVkZSB0aGVyZSBpcyBhIGNvbnNlbnN1cyBpbiB0aGUgQU5JTUEgd29y a2luZyB0byBoYXZlIHRoaXMgZHJhZnQgYmVjb21lIGEgd29ya2luZyBncm91cCBkcmFmdCAtIG5v IG9uZSBoYWQgYW55IG9iamVjdGlvbnMgdG8gYWRvcHRpbmcgdGhlIGRvY3VtZW50IGFuZCBpdCB0 YXJnZXRzIG9uZSBvZiBvdXIgY2hhcnRlcmVkIHdvcmsgaXRlbXMuIEl0IGlzIGFsc28gdGhlIFdH IGNvbnNlbnN1cyB0byB1c2UgR1JBU1AgYXMgbmV3IGFiYnJldmlhdGlvbiBmb3IgdGhpcyBwcm90 b2NvbC4gVGhlIGF1dGhvcnMgc2hvdWxkIHN1Ym1pdCB0aGUgbmV4dCB2ZXJzaW9uIGFzIGFuIEFO SU1BIHdvcmtpbmcgZ3JvdXAgZG9jdW1lbnQgKGRyYWZ0LWlldGYtYW5pbWEtKi0wMCkgd2l0aCBH UkFTUC4NCg0KVGhpcyBhdXRob3JzIGFuZCB0aGUgQU5JTUEgc2lnbmFsaW5nIGRlc2lnbiB0ZWFt IHNob3VsZCBrZWVwIHdvcmtpbmcgb24gdGhpcyBkb2N1bWVudCBhcyBlZGl0b3IgdG93YXJkcyBp dHMgbWF0dXJpdHkuIFRoZSBhdXRob3JzIGFuZCB0aGUgQU5JTUEgc2lnbmFsaW5nIGRlc2lnbiB0 ZWFtIHNob3VsZCByZXBvcnQgYW55IG1ham9yIG1vZGlmaWNhdGlvbnMgdG8gdGhlIFdHLCBlaXRo ZXIgbWFpbCBsaXN0IG9yIGZhY2UtdG8tZmFjZSBtZWV0aW5nLCBhbmQgYWNxdWlyZSBjb25zZW5z dXMgaW4gQU5JTUEgV0cuDQoNClRoYW5rcywNCg0KU2hlbmcgJiBUb2VybGVzcw0KDQo+LS0tLS1P cmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCj5Gcm9tOiBTaGVuZyBKaWFuZyBbbWFpbHRvOmppYW5nc2hl bmdAaHVhd2VpLmNvbV0NCj5TZW50OiBUaHVyc2RheSwgSnVseSAzMCwgMjAxNSAxMDozNyBBTQ0K PlRvOiBhbmltYQ0KPkNjOiBhbmltYS1jaGFpcnNAdG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmc7IFRvZXJsZXNzIEVj a2VydA0KPlN1YmplY3Q6IENvbmZpcm1hdGlvbiBvZiBjb25zZW5zdXMgdG8gYWRvcHQNCj5kcmFm dC1jYXJwZW50ZXItYW5pbWEtZ2RuLXByb3RvY29sIGFzIEFOSU1BIFdHIGRvY3VtZW50LCBlbmRz IEF1ZyAxMiwNCj4yMDE1DQo+DQo+VGhlcmUgd2FzIGNsZWFyIGNvbnNlbnN1cyBmb3IgYWRvcHRp bmcgZHJhZnQtY2FycGVudGVyLWFuaW1hLWdkbi1wcm90b2NvbA0KPihpdCB3b3VsZCBiZQ0KPnJl bmFtZWQgYWZ0ZXIgR1JBU1Agd2l0aCB0aGUgV0cgY29uc2Vuc3VzKSBhcyBhIEFOSU1BIHdvcmtp bmcgZ3JvdXANCj5kb2N1bWVudCBpbg0KPnRoZSBJRVRGIDkzIEFOSU1BIFdHIG1lZXRpbmcuIFRo aXMgbWVzc2FnZSBzdGFydHMgYSB0d28td2VlayBjYWxsIG9uDQo+Y29uZmlybWluZyB0aGUNCj5j b25zZW5zdXMgZnJvbSB0aGUgV0cgbWVldGluZy4NCj4NCj4gIFRpdGxlOiAgICAgIEEgR2VuZXJp YyBEaXNjb3ZlcnkgYW5kIE5lZ290aWF0aW9uIFByb3RvY29sIGZvciBBdXRvbm9taWMNCj5OZXR3 b3JraW5nDQo+ICBBdXRob3JzIDogICBDYXJwZW50ZXIsIGV0IGFsLg0KPiAgRmlsZW5hbWU6ICBk cmFmdC1jYXJwZW50ZXItYW5pbWEtZ2RuLXByb3RvY29sDQo+DQo+ICBodHRwczovL3Rvb2xzLmll dGYub3JnL2h0bWwvZHJhZnQtY2FycGVudGVyLWFuaW1hLWdkbi1wcm90b2NvbC0wNA0KPg0KPlBs ZWFzZSBleHByZXNzIHlvdXIgc3VwcG9ydCBvciByZWplY3Rpb24uIElmIHlvdSB0aGluayB0aGlz IGRvY3VtZW50IHNob3VsZA0KPl9ub3RfIGJlDQo+YWRvcHRlZCwgcGxlYXNlIGFsc28gZXhwbGlj aXRseSBpbmRpY2F0ZSB0aGUgcmVhc29ucy4NCj4NCj5UaGlzIGFkb3B0aW9uIGNhbGwgd2lsbCBl bmQgb24gQXVnIDEyLCAyMDE1Lg0KPg0KPlJlZ2FyZHMsDQo+DQo+U2hlbmcgKyBUb2VybGVzcw0K From nobody Wed Aug 12 02:28:59 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66E351A0016 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 02:28:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=unavailable Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A_-f1D8HGjL8 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 02:28:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9599D1A0010 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 02:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml406-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BWD80474; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 09:28:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.38) by lhreml406-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.243) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 10:28:33 +0100 Received: from NKGEML512-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.33]) by nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.38]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 17:28:30 +0800 From: Sheng Jiang To: anima Thread-Topic: Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document Thread-Index: AQHQ1OE/HnkQw1w0wU+cpSi7Ngc5GQ== Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 09:28:29 +0000 Message-ID: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.99.197] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: Toerless Eckert , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: [Anima] Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 09:28:58 -0000 VGhlIGNoYWlycyBjb25jbHVkZSB0aGVyZSBpcyBhIGNvbnNlbnN1cyBpbiB0aGUgQU5JTUEgd29y a2luZyB0byBoYXZlIHRoaXMgZHJhZnQgYmVjb21lIGEgd29ya2luZyBncm91cCBkcmFmdCAtIG5v IG9uZSBoYWQgYW55IG9iamVjdGlvbnMgdG8gYWRvcHRpbmcgdGhlIGRvY3VtZW50IGFuZCBpdCB0 YXJnZXRzIG9uZSBvZiBvdXIgY2hhcnRlcmVkIHdvcmsgaXRlbXMuIFRoZSBhdXRob3JzIHNob3Vs ZCBzdWJtaXQgdGhlIG5leHQgdmVyc2lvbiBhcyBhbiBBTklNQSB3b3JraW5nIGdyb3VwIGRvY3Vt ZW50IChkcmFmdC1pZXRmLWFuaW1hLSotMDApLg0KDQpUaGlzIGF1dGhvcnMgYW5kIHRoZSBBTklN QSBib290c3RyYXAgZGVzaWduIHRlYW0gc2hvdWxkIGtlZXAgd29ya2luZyBvbiB0aGlzIGRvY3Vt ZW50IGFzIGVkaXRvciB0b3dhcmRzIGl0cyBtYXR1cml0eS4gVGhlIGF1dGhvcnMgYW5kIHRoZSBB TklNQSBib290c3RyYXAgZGVzaWduIHRlYW0gc2hvdWxkIHJlcG9ydCBhbnkgbWFqb3IgbW9kaWZp Y2F0aW9ucyB0byB0aGUgV0csIGVpdGhlciBtYWlsIGxpc3Qgb3IgZmFjZS10by1mYWNlIG1lZXRp bmcsIGFuZCBhY3F1aXJlIGNvbnNlbnN1cyBpbiBBTklNQSBXRy4NCg0KVGhhbmtzLA0KDQpTaGVu ZyAmIFRvZXJsZXNzDQo+LS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCj5Gcm9tOiBBbmltYSBb bWFpbHRvOmFuaW1hLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmddIE9uIEJlaGFsZiBPZiBTaGVuZyBKaWFuZw0K PlNlbnQ6IFRodXJzZGF5LCBKdWx5IDMwLCAyMDE1IDEwOjQ0IEFNDQo+VG86IGFuaW1hDQo+Q2M6 IFRvZXJsZXNzIEVja2VydDsgYW5pbWEtY2hhaXJzQHRvb2xzLmlldGYub3JnDQo+U3ViamVjdDog W0FuaW1hXSBDb25maXJtYXRpb24gb2YgY29uc2Vuc3VzIHRvIGFkb3B0DQo+ZHJhZnQtcHJpdGlr aW4tYW5pbWEtYm9vdHN0cmFwcGluZy1rZXlpbmZyYSBhcyBBTklNQSBXRyBkb2N1bWVudCwgZW5k cw0KPkF1ZyAxMiwgMjAxNQ0KPg0KPlRoZXJlIHdhcyBjbGVhciBjb25zZW5zdXMgZm9yIGFkb3B0 aW5nDQo+ZHJhZnQtcHJpdGlraW4tYW5pbWEtYm9vdHN0cmFwcGluZy1rZXlpbmZyYSBhcw0KPmEg QU5JTUEgd29ya2luZyBncm91cCBkb2N1bWVudCBpbiB0aGUgSUVURiA5MyBBTklNQSBXRyBtZWV0 aW5nLiBUaGlzDQo+bWVzc2FnZQ0KPnN0YXJ0cyBhIHR3by13ZWVrIGNhbGwgb24gY29uZmlybWlu ZyB0aGUgY29uc2Vuc3VzIGZyb20gdGhlIFdHIG1lZXRpbmcuDQo+DQo+ICBUaXRsZTogICAgICBC b290c3RyYXBwaW5nIEtleSBJbmZyYXN0cnVjdHVyZXMNCj4gIEF1dGhvcnMgOiAgIFByaXRpa2lu LCBldCBhbC4NCj4gIEZpbGVuYW1lOiAgZHJhZnQtcHJpdGlraW4tYW5pbWEtYm9vdHN0cmFwcGlu Zy1rZXlpbmZyYQ0KPg0KPiAgaHR0cHM6Ly90b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sL2RyYWZ0LXByaXRp a2luLWFuaW1hLWJvb3RzdHJhcHBpbmcta2V5aW5mcmEtMDINCj4NCj5QbGVhc2UgZXhwcmVzcyB5 b3VyIHN1cHBvcnQgb3IgcmVqZWN0aW9uLiBJZiB5b3UgdGhpbmsgdGhpcyBkb2N1bWVudCBzaG91 bGQNCj5fbm90XyBiZQ0KPmFkb3B0ZWQsIHBsZWFzZSBhbHNvIGV4cGxpY2l0bHkgaW5kaWNhdGUg dGhlIHJlYXNvbnMuDQo+DQo+VGhpcyBhZG9wdGlvbiBjYWxsIHdpbGwgZW5kIG9uIEF1ZyAxMiwg MjAxNS4NCj4NCj5SZWdhcmRzLA0KPg0KPlNoZW5nICsgVG9lcmxlc3MNCj5fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPkFuaW1hIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0K PkFuaW1hQGlldGYub3JnDQo+aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9h bmltYQ0K From nobody Wed Aug 12 04:11:14 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18BBE1A1BA2 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 04:11:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.61 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.61 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nlo775yP8PnR for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 04:11:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1177B1A1B0C for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 04:11:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.131.134] ([80.92.114.74]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx103) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MYOCL-1ZKrEB49pJ-00V707; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 13:10:59 +0200 Message-ID: <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 13:10:16 +0200 From: Hannes Tschofenig User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sheng Jiang , anima References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> OpenPGP: id=4D776BC9 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="BgVctutxmrETlwJmvNQI2b188cA6A3CbX" X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:4CR0hj/6nfSBjgYHXTL/k2fGN+6BYqSsdkGLobvH9PmRTC7IvlD h2QL3gxsDSfNcwamXSpSVrjRbGdtIE+Qbz5rm3xUhRxRWntNu/c2LLk0GeOS2uGqeFqMj6U mTMhYBhxQQIreH9Xl7WswAyZ5VbTCjNphdvnCUoulRkqz6LSSeZWe3rVGdXYacr/UCqQFq4 QjT6dQzQgLZom6h976Leg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:OO55NcHUnCE=:TFVUo/WbYEbUXFWUV0PQjc ApxZFIPqRJ9V9SmKURUveupKHrGBu1C5/z6sHumI63DOFqZV0I5eFBV9fiZymyQYQiC5ws2XG 8gJXoqfGZlpTv65RG08CRodqmPZPdjmKq5I0rqP3qNL3NWBQav9KbB+YFsYcMGzeMkXSp70sR swMlHVj+hr1+AFENxbuK0Pm34nuoOE4O8d0TzyTmAKCVJuI/VJ//Kq3Wg8JsxIrYN+GMcn9eq QN+7xJl5E9SySWHsu11zTp+sBCUmg6FKalDop9HPMvw2S0RxW/wz+jokhx6xoHala3Nkk1PbP cWsEOVNvQuTjxNW/xQlHLSnZdKs0iA9uROvEj3+UO5E24I3OCagx7DH6eeQ/7oAw1YM3+55aQ FK4eej5HfRKiP7eFr566SNKRLUdubLBt85VX6amASzaaYbu3gOkS0s6kpJmMpc6wwMBeejLcx jaXXKrxfKvGYtNl9O//Z2lD8ld/k3eMWPTv/+moJwAwAqKVbYvSSgp3G/NWgqTS38UcApmKEG KHExOYJ8x0eYA5wtcVC0mhEMo1TO6wzZxUVcFsS1CbDSBIQGJyb4EcUxn/sOWv1d4HZrmJ50I d/7Nqfpy1dW8YD/CQCxVm/Q2pZGZ/tv9MjRfc/zRuBrqX2kg2FkT5XecM3e980mrDjiG6wppR yLwMzU0O8sstWu+S2PsIN7IeRSukeGcBqIU9qWt7uZcdBWYVJuLOZgbuMxxauYDi9R6gdlWJ1 aG0s4/R7lQmDpGPw Archived-At: Cc: Toerless Eckert , Stephen Farrell , Kathleen Moriarty , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Anima] Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 11:11:13 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --BgVctutxmrETlwJmvNQI2b188cA6A3CbX Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would like to raise a concern at this point in time. I personally believe that the use of design teams in the IETF has become a new way of excluding people (not only in ANIMA but also in other groups= ). Design teams run for a (very) long period of time (often without a clear mandate), are put together by the chairs (who decide about the participants and also who they do not want on the design team) and the entire decision making process is less clear in the end. The situation becomes worse when there is actually work going on elsewhere in the IETF with a very similar scope. I am raising this now because Max approached me at the last IETF meeting and was a big advocate of inclusiveness and the need to harmonize activities in the area of bootstrapping (which I call key distribution) in the IETF. Today, this does not work since even participating in many of the design teams is not possible. Ciao Hannes On 08/12/2015 11:28 AM, Sheng Jiang wrote: > The chairs conclude there is a consensus in the ANIMA working to have t= his draft become a working group draft - no one had any objections to ado= pting the document and it targets one of our chartered work items. The au= thors should submit the next version as an ANIMA working group document (= draft-ietf-anima-*-00). >=20 > This authors and the ANIMA bootstrap design team should keep working on= this document as editor towards its maturity. The authors and the ANIMA = bootstrap design team should report any major modifications to the WG, ei= ther mail list or face-to-face meeting, and acquire consensus in ANIMA WG= =2E >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Sheng & Toerless >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Sheng Jiang >> Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2015 10:44 AM >> To: anima >> Cc: Toerless Eckert; anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org >> Subject: [Anima] Confirmation of consensus to adopt >> draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document, ends= >> Aug 12, 2015 >> >> There was clear consensus for adopting >> draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as >> a ANIMA working group document in the IETF 93 ANIMA WG meeting. This >> message >> starts a two-week call on confirming the consensus from the WG meeting= =2E >> >> Title: Bootstrapping Key Infrastructures >> Authors : Pritikin, et al. >> Filename: draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra >> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinf= ra-02 >> >> Please express your support or rejection. If you think this document s= hould >> _not_ be >> adopted, please also explicitly indicate the reasons. >> >> This adoption call will end on Aug 12, 2015. >> >> Regards, >> >> Sheng + Toerless >> _______________________________________________ >> Anima mailing list >> Anima@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >=20 --BgVctutxmrETlwJmvNQI2b188cA6A3CbX Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJVyymYAAoJEGhJURNOOiAt2r4H/A1h3R3oPeBXXIxxGRh+iRQF NwhYqHnRHoCAG6OVbBsyzweTjmG1NqVm1JDdgAObtxW9gtvyMUNWmU8YUJQMPlhF 9RZwFE/a+I1fgWntS87nyyqhCg03djRgA82WwN2qlwTXvTr+Z0q+u4H9aFzTVnaL EIRy59xVOSjg6LvBHez71qm8hKC8v6N1sN49LlZIB28zUTUqmFStv5TZV3OobE4L SEfVZGDzz6upW0qqIYtVvdwyw/YOJqZs1+omYOAepJfw40FQSAMMyvWTleigPdXG MmFiT97LOoiF4+nUVeQrBGDoy8ZvP6PXunvXrNpU4iG8bXuHwAj1vrvmf6EYQfU= =U6EM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --BgVctutxmrETlwJmvNQI2b188cA6A3CbX-- From nobody Wed Aug 12 04:22:54 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABEC41A8AF3 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 04:22:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pdY2CIXF_Ooy for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 04:22:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x229.google.com (mail-qk0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 58B461A8AED for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 04:22:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qkcs67 with SMTP id s67so3888569qkc.1 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 04:22:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:content-type:mime-version:subject:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=NYgr3Awidu84OQgblMOpvXM2p6ChFS+MMRLe/StiKM8=; b=R586sFVi/juWrpce5Csivj+lahjURvCmrlaidQfXMOCLZlxElOb/N57DhYacwjwqqB ltJhabomhSUelrIqMlLRRDCIOpLgxH6mpMLJhASsAbhara67fPU88wa75HeXfYBRWwo1 s8BcOf5O+7rcoZHpfi+TxG4f+SeU2NbgATeTWpLq+s3+ZbA+VIhmRbCCzNbI7YCpb7da u5eQOyKj/Phux+sy2VZUfOiQkCaSanGmmd76Lc/DKo32AVQzXv654fcCz5iYrBoPEht5 hfoxby6H62+EEhepispIWlfZMBb6mSVcyirA6pzmukEjsZvgpUmf3Uf7u4G3Nacv7cs5 rwVg== X-Received: by 10.55.41.32 with SMTP id p32mr30895203qkh.26.1439378569630; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 04:22:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.4] (209-6-114-252.c3-0.arl-ubr1.sbo-arl.ma.cable.rcn.com. [209.6.114.252]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a8sm2956969qka.33.2015.08.12.04.22.48 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 12 Aug 2015 04:22:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Kathleen Moriarty X-Google-Original-From: Kathleen Moriarty Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (12H143) In-Reply-To: <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 07:22:47 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> To: Hannes Tschofenig Archived-At: Cc: Stephen Farrell , Toerless Eckert , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , anima , Sheng Jiang Subject: Re: [Anima] Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 11:22:52 -0000 Hannes, Thanks for raising this issue. For some working groups, SACM for instance, t= he design team meeting times and connection information are published so oth= ers can join. Maybe we can make that more of the standard practice? Altern= ative, change logs/diffs could be used by others to counter new points intro= duced. Are they being used as they should be? Thank you, Kathleen=20 Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 12, 2015, at 7:10 AM, Hannes Tschofenig = wrote: >=20 > I would like to raise a concern at this point in time. >=20 > I personally believe that the use of design teams in the IETF has become > a new way of excluding people (not only in ANIMA but also in other groups)= . >=20 > Design teams run for a (very) long period of time (often without a clear > mandate), are put together by the chairs (who decide about the > participants and also who they do not want on the design team) and the > entire decision making process is less clear in the end. >=20 > The situation becomes worse when there is actually work going on > elsewhere in the IETF with a very similar scope. >=20 > I am raising this now because Max approached me at the last IETF meeting > and was a big advocate of inclusiveness and the need to harmonize > activities in the area of bootstrapping (which I call key distribution) > in the IETF. Today, this does not work since even participating in many > of the design teams is not possible. >=20 > Ciao > Hannes >=20 >=20 >> On 08/12/2015 11:28 AM, Sheng Jiang wrote: >> The chairs conclude there is a consensus in the ANIMA working to have thi= s draft become a working group draft - no one had any objections to adopting= the document and it targets one of our chartered work items. The authors sh= ould submit the next version as an ANIMA working group document (draft-ietf-= anima-*-00). >>=20 >> This authors and the ANIMA bootstrap design team should keep working on t= his document as editor towards its maturity. The authors and the ANIMA boots= trap design team should report any major modifications to the WG, either mai= l list or face-to-face meeting, and acquire consensus in ANIMA WG. >>=20 >> Thanks, >>=20 >> Sheng & Toerless >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Sheng Jiang >>> Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2015 10:44 AM >>> To: anima >>> Cc: Toerless Eckert; anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org >>> Subject: [Anima] Confirmation of consensus to adopt >>> draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document, ends >>> Aug 12, 2015 >>>=20 >>> There was clear consensus for adopting >>> draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as >>> a ANIMA working group document in the IETF 93 ANIMA WG meeting. This >>> message >>> starts a two-week call on confirming the consensus from the WG meeting. >>>=20 >>> Title: Bootstrapping Key Infrastructures >>> Authors : Pritikin, et al. >>> Filename: draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra >>>=20 >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra-= 02 >>>=20 >>> Please express your support or rejection. If you think this document sho= uld >>> _not_ be >>> adopted, please also explicitly indicate the reasons. >>>=20 >>> This adoption call will end on Aug 12, 2015. >>>=20 >>> Regards, >>>=20 >>> Sheng + Toerless >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Anima mailing list >>> Anima@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >> _______________________________________________ >> Anima mailing list >> Anima@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >=20 From nobody Wed Aug 12 04:29:50 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC17A1A8EA9 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 04:29:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.311 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.311 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CsJDk8pxj-vZ for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 04:29:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 293471A8AF9 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 04:29:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CE15BE57; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 12:29:43 +0100 (IST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q52GGuwu1bdf; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 12:29:43 +0100 (IST) Received: from [134.226.36.180] (stephen-think.dsg.cs.tcd.ie [134.226.36.180]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0986ABE54; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 12:29:42 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1439378983; bh=mZ2RyFmitPtSQriXxou+pPch+6+3/h7ipKkbJLRsFdg=; h=Date:From:To:CC:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=2bSg1IXvZ9EQij56LsFzWeDVCG6yOSjDY4Z3wuEtg/1lJnECKOzg3YXvWhE1dmQzn EYWcfY1LjvnhQ5aDSbqeDgMHqwqUPFNsc2m5H45J7nbb/9qB3JCC+NNNoigvlwrMUo zIuOjxqpnooPqHIHJFegLlZeXlbHEbJWZoh+alwU= Message-ID: <55CB2E24.3030604@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 12:29:40 +0100 From: Stephen Farrell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kathleen Moriarty , Hannes Tschofenig References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> OpenPGP: id=D66EA7906F0B897FB2E97D582F3C8736805F8DA2; url= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: Toerless Eckert , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , anima , Sheng Jiang Subject: Re: [Anima] Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 11:29:49 -0000 In a side conversation in Prague, Max offered to try pull together an overview of the various related things being tackled in the IETF, as this topic came up in saag as well. (Max's opinion was that there may be a way to provide one solution for almost all of those, I'm less convinced of that.) Would having that discussion f2f at IETF94 be useful? (That could be a non-WG forming BoF session or a saag slot I guess.) I think (but am open to correction) that we don't have any related work item that has to be done before IETF94, so if that timing is ok, we could organise something S. On 12/08/15 12:22, Kathleen Moriarty wrote: > Hannes, > > Thanks for raising this issue. For some working groups, SACM for > instance, the design team meeting times and connection information > are published so others can join. Maybe we can make that more of the > standard practice? Alternative, change logs/diffs could be used by > others to counter new points introduced. Are they being used as they > should be? > > Thank you, Kathleen > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Aug 12, 2015, at 7:10 AM, Hannes Tschofenig >> wrote: >> >> I would like to raise a concern at this point in time. >> >> I personally believe that the use of design teams in the IETF has >> become a new way of excluding people (not only in ANIMA but also in >> other groups). >> >> Design teams run for a (very) long period of time (often without a >> clear mandate), are put together by the chairs (who decide about >> the participants and also who they do not want on the design team) >> and the entire decision making process is less clear in the end. >> >> The situation becomes worse when there is actually work going on >> elsewhere in the IETF with a very similar scope. >> >> I am raising this now because Max approached me at the last IETF >> meeting and was a big advocate of inclusiveness and the need to >> harmonize activities in the area of bootstrapping (which I call key >> distribution) in the IETF. Today, this does not work since even >> participating in many of the design teams is not possible. >> >> Ciao Hannes >> >> >>> On 08/12/2015 11:28 AM, Sheng Jiang wrote: The chairs conclude >>> there is a consensus in the ANIMA working to have this draft >>> become a working group draft - no one had any objections to >>> adopting the document and it targets one of our chartered work >>> items. The authors should submit the next version as an ANIMA >>> working group document (draft-ietf-anima-*-00). >>> >>> This authors and the ANIMA bootstrap design team should keep >>> working on this document as editor towards its maturity. The >>> authors and the ANIMA bootstrap design team should report any >>> major modifications to the WG, either mail list or face-to-face >>> meeting, and acquire consensus in ANIMA WG. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Sheng & Toerless >>>> -----Original Message----- From: Anima >>>> [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Sheng Jiang Sent: >>>> Thursday, July 30, 2015 10:44 AM To: anima Cc: Toerless Eckert; >>>> anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org Subject: [Anima] Confirmation of >>>> consensus to adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra >>>> as ANIMA WG document, ends Aug 12, 2015 >>>> >>>> There was clear consensus for adopting >>>> draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as a ANIMA working >>>> group document in the IETF 93 ANIMA WG meeting. This message >>>> starts a two-week call on confirming the consensus from the WG >>>> meeting. >>>> >>>> Title: Bootstrapping Key Infrastructures Authors : >>>> Pritikin, et al. Filename: >>>> draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra >>>> >>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra-02 >>>> >>>> >>>> Please express your support or rejection. If you think this document should >>>> _not_ be adopted, please also explicitly indicate the reasons. >>>> >>>> This adoption call will end on Aug 12, 2015. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Sheng + Toerless >>>> _______________________________________________ Anima mailing >>>> list Anima@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >>> _______________________________________________ Anima mailing >>> list Anima@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >> From nobody Wed Aug 12 05:01:24 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CC0B1B2B7D for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 05:01:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.61 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.61 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jup_sIATqMJH for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 05:01:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D468A1B2C51 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 05:01:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.131.134] ([80.92.114.74]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx103) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0M24Vr-1YVt9s1EN9-00tzT2; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 14:01:07 +0200 Message-ID: <55CB357D.5080508@gmx.net> Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 14:01:01 +0200 From: Hannes Tschofenig User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kathleen Moriarty References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> OpenPGP: id=4D776BC9 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="QHrUJJVomb5twmmdMAwTexK3snG4K55JA" X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:0L8Nb6eZO044Xx7w5fg/+30APJXRDLJ4O5RHJJiv3jSjKqMEDwg rr3GaJwg4mtWVV6zpae99NqVlADz0qUylEz61x9/yPIDEvpJjnhRDLVoZ9p7tSjNeYS4pvs tUF66dzN7uuU/9aF8oR7L9rnI1ZHx+nU1BJqnuUPF04g/XLQoknq+Ugkz9PpZHcLZOXqBjJ dTQxcMaek6MF1H/fJRHsg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:o+niwcyQDTY=:VoptQiO7KxB7AwTe7+8ti9 yeLNfi4iJrNS3BsY+K7TKAt8RyrXjTzZJ4hozkKkpblSFMx+B2lsoOTI1B/43F2Uo3um0Ga07 n/spt2VQ/Hk0YZCPMkSPllxTYxXCmQGUvLeYJKcd4Yb4rIDD1qD4wMcGIapp5hnMWSOnQCzw/ QoeD+vwjsg+SkOWIK5aVSifm7O0N1QC9Zw5A2kiTqrAUHF7QxhByQp2pfOYOopjznpzGbMIUx H4t3TfUDLkHQbjA2NhSy5CIYV11zPL7Z+mlCuVLV1CF5daeJOxjHn8ROENCIyhkcQ79HvwpuX HJ6XdN53d404rY0EYfpvJYp4e/BSIbf8NLjLYKxYSd9Zsmaym/KvET5JTDEpZllStC8HRp6sz /WNmf/XqzYC3xT+TaslizTy7EHFy4k/euVmkh8l1MEyCO3ZxG/b6VuE0LKaU4hY1H8Niy3twL gaD/7tLHuueSRn5F4ilCN4TWCsaAeTYhlW10d6lHAU+m9aWY2q03nsLb9gkhOG/vNOBok148u FafYkrvC8gohjv0s1R7StMiWF/t9GmhGWUpfWzErUAx9gbjwYS4ETx0JB6Hz7zwJTqh9CKEBv HyEGNPiA1leMS11TIOHH4lUWaeZDMRMQ+wXRtEty2y5gJO5IViusABUjxasmDp5uKd3twzbxb jP8eciSRQO86MelLUUDxLSAPOwaZqgbzwtBEmJbEFAkZX+6ryUhVNXVLzTuoANByqeQD4xex5 bA0OdB1VYk8xctt7 Archived-At: Cc: Sheng Jiang , Toerless Eckert , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , anima , Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [Anima] Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 12:01:23 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --QHrUJJVomb5twmmdMAwTexK3snG4K55JA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 08/12/2015 01:22 PM, Kathleen Moriarty wrote: > For some working groups, SACM for instance, the design team meeting > times and connection information are published so others can join. This might be an option. In some sense this is a model where the mailing list activities are extended with phone conference calls (for those cases where mailing list activities are just not enough). Ciao Hannes --QHrUJJVomb5twmmdMAwTexK3snG4K55JA Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJVyzV9AAoJEGhJURNOOiAt/qoH/1d7OZGnomdkVjh+34fzkgkr XnA/zh295zI5tSyw6ZfGlN3RopSEyxe9NSML8lr8eKka4PmwUeiuyc4n/w/Rfyyo GfP8t74CuwYBPEwpvghIyZHxIzcNPRC+yLQ+xTkyqj5CQQnGyuvfPElXnk6oNPmg tW91Evqq1YhmQLehO0H0ekk/7z6ZmuK342vkBRcHAPGPWhWYiI1oQZHgp1GqwTkX 66CtaCFmP2AA0WESJPRVeOkpbInWAABqAgrCpX4OgIhgPl/tHzvuaZzTlicbMsPU jmCSwgvXwNDpmYP1XQaB7AHE9Te7U3PgS8vHwpr20Iv9k3Uc3jaa4EgcDCyYEeU= =id0b -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --QHrUJJVomb5twmmdMAwTexK3snG4K55JA-- From nobody Wed Aug 12 05:11:44 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE8AF1ACE02 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 05:11:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ybl28DvnwqVi for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 05:11:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 67DFC1B2C51 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 05:11:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.131.134] ([80.92.114.74]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx001) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MBmvH-1ZYWt03Nix-00AqLL; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 14:11:34 +0200 Message-ID: <55CB37E2.9070107@gmx.net> Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 14:11:14 +0200 From: Hannes Tschofenig User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephen Farrell , Kathleen Moriarty References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> <55CB2E24.3030604@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <55CB2E24.3030604@cs.tcd.ie> OpenPGP: id=4D776BC9 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="SeGM4c11mjkWpqIntpXHBkT0onm9NR26W" X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:ftp6hmaeY4mTysMALYpz9jnWMuB52gSum6dKUm9fQ6hsKPoIya/ 49apzvWF6nKPaanvl4QjtarLcTx6Nq9p6dXAs6hlfyQwvfUaky7CCykvvn3D6wpOovP+oQi Tgmh7izBUtBjqkUU9TXmrWVL3V0y7XeTeX/i2bKUyWFBoy6IvAbZirdiRfUwLXvSoFBoCrU dg7k32Eka0cyzi31GM39w== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:LltJcMViEzQ=:yonfG4Wyed2rrE7p0IHYp+ fPOVWFKPcJNZWUkVMflBjJBDT98Let6uKDlXxEMvpUMjfynzli+A7TdQdabhK9ryi2uEw8dXW INUF4kFLbmF6sXMRsKcGzkPXUKCpckcrUuYMypkvRxdfuAOkfEX68WR0aSg4jrrnc3rQvpnV3 Vh0Y+RVckrcyDGl7JVrdibC4c6ZcjbvTlrVSa9/Lkjgi83OBCO41BwGwGHXXMQoELW59+OGcK Enrd4G1346tMPWL4kCVz+Dvf2pRoV7YuzSyOnWAIyHf4fwo3U51w2fhiWvyI94ETYeCvny3Hh JuuBi49XPYbXNlr2qa+P4HeQs50q5QUAyIG9s9a2FlhjeOMZ09QgknybQJR8YD7lOy0EZZi3A 4g6ODVMMMgAeWmyT9Bv79Ya16mxxGuRGqQEmsd74zov5bBsunZg8/lUKL0pw9OQ6KrOmB+7lH BFP9qNRcuMfd/9xon49xbICBRd46Sh6Jdo06BPh6fmwAiz7WxnqwnFLBtPdy0l++WoDwFYgX7 /hyvQ0+7/oyVtu6ihBN17tBUWRt6uqwaobajopkh8K8B5F1rzMujT4WwwW/t47UE02o/NgRH4 M1aXTtjj/zfC3Rhz9mirYIA0p3BaLh8n8t1E4y5ul3CPrVW640A2SUb+imAsZd+L9v5pIWgE9 tv3NUsLm6Ww84t+kHj7U76jn8drjyJJWGnkrBx+lPXsqEUmTg84iaYrLoOlinpitLlkxOJ4eL iMOLLaK6oZHNcvHn Archived-At: Cc: Toerless Eckert , Sheng Jiang , anima , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Anima] Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 12:11:43 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --SeGM4c11mjkWpqIntpXHBkT0onm9NR26W Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sounds a bit like https://xkcd.com/927/ I would already be happy if we could come up with terminology to understand when we are solving the same problem and when we aren't. On 08/12/2015 01:29 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >=20 > In a side conversation in Prague, Max offered to try pull together > an overview of the various related things being tackled in the IETF, > as this topic came up in saag as well. >=20 > (Max's opinion was that there may be a way to provide one solution for > almost all of those, I'm less convinced of that.) >=20 > Would having that discussion f2f at IETF94 be useful? (That could be > a non-WG forming BoF session or a saag slot I guess.) >=20 > I think (but am open to correction) that we don't have any related > work item that has to be done before IETF94, so if that timing is > ok, we could organise something >=20 > S. >=20 > On 12/08/15 12:22, Kathleen Moriarty wrote: >> Hannes, >> >> Thanks for raising this issue. For some working groups, SACM for >> instance, the design team meeting times and connection information >> are published so others can join. Maybe we can make that more of the >> standard practice? Alternative, change logs/diffs could be used by >> others to counter new points introduced. Are they being used as they >> should be? >> >> Thank you, Kathleen >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Aug 12, 2015, at 7:10 AM, Hannes Tschofenig >>> wrote: >>> >>> I would like to raise a concern at this point in time. >>> >>> I personally believe that the use of design teams in the IETF has >>> become a new way of excluding people (not only in ANIMA but also in >>> other groups). >>> >>> Design teams run for a (very) long period of time (often without a >>> clear mandate), are put together by the chairs (who decide about >>> the participants and also who they do not want on the design team) >>> and the entire decision making process is less clear in the end. >>> >>> The situation becomes worse when there is actually work going on=20 >>> elsewhere in the IETF with a very similar scope. >>> >>> I am raising this now because Max approached me at the last IETF >>> meeting and was a big advocate of inclusiveness and the need to >>> harmonize activities in the area of bootstrapping (which I call key >>> distribution) in the IETF. Today, this does not work since even >>> participating in many of the design teams is not possible. >>> >>> Ciao Hannes >>> >>> >>>> On 08/12/2015 11:28 AM, Sheng Jiang wrote: The chairs conclude >>>> there is a consensus in the ANIMA working to have this draft >>>> become a working group draft - no one had any objections to >>>> adopting the document and it targets one of our chartered work >>>> items. The authors should submit the next version as an ANIMA >>>> working group document (draft-ietf-anima-*-00). >>>> >>>> This authors and the ANIMA bootstrap design team should keep >>>> working on this document as editor towards its maturity. The >>>> authors and the ANIMA bootstrap design team should report any >>>> major modifications to the WG, either mail list or face-to-face >>>> meeting, and acquire consensus in ANIMA WG. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Sheng & Toerless >>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Anima >>>>> [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Sheng Jiang Sent: >>>>> Thursday, July 30, 2015 10:44 AM To: anima Cc: Toerless Eckert; >>>>> anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org Subject: [Anima] Confirmation of >>>>> consensus to adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra >>>>> as ANIMA WG document, ends Aug 12, 2015 >>>>> >>>>> There was clear consensus for adopting=20 >>>>> draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as a ANIMA working >>>>> group document in the IETF 93 ANIMA WG meeting. This message=20 >>>>> starts a two-week call on confirming the consensus from the WG >>>>> meeting. >>>>> >>>>> Title: Bootstrapping Key Infrastructures Authors : >>>>> Pritikin, et al. Filename: >>>>> draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra >>>>> >>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyi= nfra-02 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Please express your support or rejection. If you think this document sh= ould >>>>> _not_ be adopted, please also explicitly indicate the reasons. >>>>> >>>>> This adoption call will end on Aug 12, 2015. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> Sheng + Toerless=20 >>>>> _______________________________________________ Anima mailing >>>>> list Anima@ietf.org=20 >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >>>> _______________________________________________ Anima mailing >>>> list Anima@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >>> >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >=20 --SeGM4c11mjkWpqIntpXHBkT0onm9NR26W Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJVyzfiAAoJEGhJURNOOiAt5YYH/1Uzq2/IPQPTJsE/EvRyNbWX fXKP4KgOJA7eQYvHedoUi1RjyeGkKnAalfQCe/VSDpStAt3lyFgCgPSb2LzPa22B 8U3Vqy4PbK57ArfxpBymXYrUkrwNZkkUmSDWoX1FZ5Kx/vnfhMAyIz6Ve2YjLg8+ 7NM6RfToYyaHTYoBrwCVzBBCP+rJW2pYWJCiZzW0aZl3G3HK0SCMLjSyB2jiMngD egoOZbGOBMZ4Zyb8g4eV8ign/IZj8QhYOjh83Oes6rKhrmfyshvSxzXs7XxTYgtf d/VJPjtDtxEh3VrWiTn3lpxHWDqE8pES4+KoJTp5+w76QdE4n/a/JzA7IooLhkg= =1WQR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --SeGM4c11mjkWpqIntpXHBkT0onm9NR26W-- From nobody Wed Aug 12 05:30:11 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3E561B2CCE for ; 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Wed, 12 Aug 2015 07:30:07 -0500 Received: from xhc-aln-x01.cisco.com (173.36.12.75) by xch-aln-005.cisco.com (173.36.7.15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 07:30:07 -0500 Received: from xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com ([169.254.4.116]) by xhc-aln-x01.cisco.com ([173.36.12.75]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 07:30:07 -0500 From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" To: Hannes Tschofenig , Kathleen Moriarty Thread-Topic: [Anima] Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document Thread-Index: AQHQ1OE/HnkQw1w0wU+cpSi7Ngc5GZ4IiP4AgAADf4CAAAqugP//sydQ Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 12:30:07 +0000 Message-ID: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF23040895@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> <55CB357D.5080508@gmx.net> In-Reply-To: <55CB357D.5080508@gmx.net> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.55.238.133] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Stephen Farrell , "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , anima , Sheng Jiang Subject: Re: [Anima] Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 12:30:10 -0000 Also the ANIMA design teams are open mailing lists open to everyone, etc. F= or example the bootstrap team meets in 1.5 hours, info at=20 http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/anima/trac/wiki/Bootstrap For ANIMA, I don't see your concern at this point, Hannes, but I do agree t= hat generally these teams could turn "private" easily if we're not paying a= ttention.=20 But, that always happened in the past as well, folks got together and worke= d offline on some things, then came back to the group. It also has advantag= es, as long as the end result is still open for debate.=20 Michael > -----Original Message----- > From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Hannes > Tschofenig > Sent: 12 August 2015 14:01 > To: Kathleen Moriarty > Cc: Sheng Jiang; Toerless Eckert (eckert); anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org; > anima; Stephen Farrell > Subject: Re: [Anima] Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping= - > keyinfra as ANIMA WG document >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 08/12/2015 01:22 PM, Kathleen Moriarty wrote: > > For some working groups, SACM for instance, the design team meeting > > times and connection information are published so others can join. >=20 > This might be an option. In some sense this is a model where the mailing = list > activities are extended with phone conference calls (for those cases wher= e > mailing list activities are just not enough). >=20 > Ciao > Hannes >=20 From nobody Wed Aug 12 07:05:15 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D660C1A6ED9 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 07:05:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.611 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.611 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3kKl5WwY2WBu for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 07:05:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E8131A6F13 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 07:02:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9188B2009E; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 10:20:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 07ACA63B10; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 10:02:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E298E63AE8; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 10:02:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Stephen Farrell In-Reply-To: <55CB2E24.3030604@cs.tcd.ie> References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> <55CB2E24.3030604@cs.tcd.ie> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 24.4.2 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Archived-At: Cc: Toerless Eckert , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , Kathleen Moriarty , Hannes Tschofenig , anima , Sheng Jiang Subject: Re: [Anima] Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 14:05:14 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stephen Farrell wrote: > In a side conversation in Prague, Max offered to try pull together an > overview of the various related things being tackled in the IETF, as > this topic came up in saag as well. > (Max's opinion was that there may be a way to provide one solution for > almost all of those, I'm less convinced of that.) > Would having that discussion f2f at IETF94 be useful? (That could be a > non-WG forming BoF session or a saag slot I guess.) Either is fine; I'm happy to participate and contribute; but I'm not convinced that a 1 hour conversation is useful. The most useful thing might be to have a conversation about a common nomenclature for the threats that one needs to defend against. That would, I think, make it much easier for different groups to compare different solutions, and realize whether or not they actually want/need to defend against things. =2D-=20 Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBVctSEICLcPvd0N1lAQK4AggAquGYkff8KLpad3B1+gKHHjLjyX2AGSyu YKj1lFHA5/3ZjeEo4ObzpnjhxAyfM7zVpUgwB/FE56XEvRIKDKOr3UPrNTZ5Wdyr A+bUgI6pQvndtnP4SunOAdpBH3ycFI1VCPMFoSdTtvlUg+z5ik3XNqXWrwt0G8Kf vGF2oJqLe8sROkBERyfgGXtEwq1aaZJzAkAOSIcgG02qowb41/eMDRXgANmgB8GE NLS/Zj0hoLRfhuavP86+En1P3DIgqdIq3FqIDvu+xbIZN3MMN/kTO9mkY5rYHAf1 BpCHvUDwwHz0+cLVUsVLuBDnFLAzyFX+vY5VssLA1NLBnwOzJDGXuw== =Ld8F -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Aug 12 07:46:54 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 324661A89A5 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 07:46:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.611 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.611 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ATyMfPB0Dv3y for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 07:46:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 907361A8991 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 07:46:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D1602009E; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 11:04:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 70D7C63B10; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 10:46:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57A9E63AE8; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 10:46:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Hannes Tschofenig In-Reply-To: <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 24.4.2 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Archived-At: Cc: Toerless Eckert , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , Kathleen Moriarty , Sheng Jiang , anima , Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [Anima] Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 14:46:53 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > I would like to raise a concern at this point in time. > I personally believe that the use of design teams in the IETF has > become a new way of excluding people (not only in ANIMA but also in > other groups). > Design teams run for a (very) long period of time (often without a > clear mandate), are put together by the chairs (who decide about the > participants and also who they do not want on the design team) and the > entire decision making process is less clear in the end. You are exactly right that this has historically been a serious problem. I can point to a number of cases where there have been serious issues that continue to linger until today. I'm not happy about design teams, and I resisted a bit about creating the bootstrap design team. My take on *this* design team (and design teams done right) is that they have essentially replaced (opaque) author teams who in the past have done things in a totally adhoc manner. In this case, the chairs (and AD) forced us to build a charter: https://tools.ietf.org/wg/anima/trac/wiki/Bootstrap so we have a mandate. The call for design team members was open, and really is still open, and the mailing list is archived and open. > The situation becomes worse when there is actually work going on > elsewhere in the IETF with a very similar scope. Agreed, and I hate when this work elsewhere is done under NDA. (I really really hate it, and it pains not to point fingers and name names.) =2D-=20 Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBVctcWoCLcPvd0N1lAQLuoggAjCcetF0XJ/OJtDdYwCW2uDx/ZejYGCk8 +KYn0b9zTZP/Kz4n2m4ptZ/k1wld//EJXw1sGrP4QXGE1E569aACa5xX/vU+hXh8 mhDaTsitNJjyZYPMniKbT1dOZILUfADRPDdNltJFQOhuonk3IOWp/dWdgWTlBSIe mmKd+BON0CAsZA44Vl/gHLrDQdApDFUVWI+O+rS8cvecXRmTSHeVJNM3o1UKhV86 dco/LA3Rjn++dFzsQ27PJFwUyOVHt7wwGMDu7unsnD2f3FQl4ogpkr9M1YwWPKM7 M1MlAiQiW1HmhIlq2SCmINihUweAKkfro259NE0MN0mydnoCvzW+tw== =6x3X -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Aug 12 14:06:17 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB5331ACDE4 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 14:06:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8V_TM7BIk1FQ for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 14:06:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x236.google.com (mail-pa0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0632C1ACDD8 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 14:06:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pacrr5 with SMTP id rr5so22047029pac.3 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 14:06:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZI89DpfZt9uHxg6WIFCJP6Rj02MYfxmPzdDCVF058QU=; b=ecOCNFIH7CaAP69vZ9CkoocQLebKBqYSd17RB1+2kp+D5S5uvlPKpE0ZpDnNOeWlf4 euVf9VirzIwvWI3UHvgIQb4yTjzWWNEf6ELC/NE4Y4nx5irCdRdh/6hZ/CwhIsOevVfA m36FeODIB3ak9tV/7jWFbKXPrPu0NzU3zYb3nzdCL66OEA4We+TRjDrcXSow3HPOQ4cM wJepBEF/rUbhh+TXE6FljuNXpnECRMFX7EVQOtVlnmqy+4tuoNu33ycbZpIzgzI74S48 ggm+7M3UmLpW/rKx7FmMMALvNbWmgConMyDH0ek99xEA8IXDk0G9mFeqHPYEU0hglm/g TaKA== X-Received: by 10.68.218.65 with SMTP id pe1mr70138704pbc.2.1439413574697; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 14:06:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:6ddd:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:6ddd:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id tz1sm30690pbc.50.2015.08.12.14.06.10 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 12 Aug 2015 14:06:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <55CBB549.6080704@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 09:06:17 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hannes Tschofenig , Stephen Farrell , Kathleen Moriarty References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> <55CB2E24.3030604@cs.tcd.ie> <55CB37E2.9070107@gmx.net> In-Reply-To: <55CB37E2.9070107@gmx.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: Toerless Eckert , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , anima , Sheng Jiang Subject: Re: [Anima] Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 21:06:17 -0000 On 13/08/2015 00:11, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > Sounds a bit like https://xkcd.com/927/ > > I would already be happy if we could come up with terminology to > understand when we are solving the same problem and when we aren't. Sure, and when we are solving an already-solved problem. But I don't think there's any process rule or algorithm that is going to fix this: it's just one of the things where everybody, and not only the ADs, have to keep their eyes and ears open and raise the alarm when they notice overlaps. As already noted, the Anima design teams have been set up to operate transparently. Brian > > On 08/12/2015 01:29 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >> >> In a side conversation in Prague, Max offered to try pull together >> an overview of the various related things being tackled in the IETF, >> as this topic came up in saag as well. >> >> (Max's opinion was that there may be a way to provide one solution for >> almost all of those, I'm less convinced of that.) >> >> Would having that discussion f2f at IETF94 be useful? (That could be >> a non-WG forming BoF session or a saag slot I guess.) >> >> I think (but am open to correction) that we don't have any related >> work item that has to be done before IETF94, so if that timing is >> ok, we could organise something >> >> S. >> >> On 12/08/15 12:22, Kathleen Moriarty wrote: >>> Hannes, >>> >>> Thanks for raising this issue. For some working groups, SACM for >>> instance, the design team meeting times and connection information >>> are published so others can join. Maybe we can make that more of the >>> standard practice? Alternative, change logs/diffs could be used by >>> others to counter new points introduced. Are they being used as they >>> should be? >>> >>> Thank you, Kathleen >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Aug 12, 2015, at 7:10 AM, Hannes Tschofenig >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I would like to raise a concern at this point in time. >>>> >>>> I personally believe that the use of design teams in the IETF has >>>> become a new way of excluding people (not only in ANIMA but also in >>>> other groups). >>>> >>>> Design teams run for a (very) long period of time (often without a >>>> clear mandate), are put together by the chairs (who decide about >>>> the participants and also who they do not want on the design team) >>>> and the entire decision making process is less clear in the end. >>>> >>>> The situation becomes worse when there is actually work going on >>>> elsewhere in the IETF with a very similar scope. >>>> >>>> I am raising this now because Max approached me at the last IETF >>>> meeting and was a big advocate of inclusiveness and the need to >>>> harmonize activities in the area of bootstrapping (which I call key >>>> distribution) in the IETF. Today, this does not work since even >>>> participating in many of the design teams is not possible. >>>> >>>> Ciao Hannes >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 08/12/2015 11:28 AM, Sheng Jiang wrote: The chairs conclude >>>>> there is a consensus in the ANIMA working to have this draft >>>>> become a working group draft - no one had any objections to >>>>> adopting the document and it targets one of our chartered work >>>>> items. The authors should submit the next version as an ANIMA >>>>> working group document (draft-ietf-anima-*-00). >>>>> >>>>> This authors and the ANIMA bootstrap design team should keep >>>>> working on this document as editor towards its maturity. The >>>>> authors and the ANIMA bootstrap design team should report any >>>>> major modifications to the WG, either mail list or face-to-face >>>>> meeting, and acquire consensus in ANIMA WG. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> Sheng & Toerless >>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Anima >>>>>> [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Sheng Jiang Sent: >>>>>> Thursday, July 30, 2015 10:44 AM To: anima Cc: Toerless Eckert; >>>>>> anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org Subject: [Anima] Confirmation of >>>>>> consensus to adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra >>>>>> as ANIMA WG document, ends Aug 12, 2015 >>>>>> >>>>>> There was clear consensus for adopting >>>>>> draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as a ANIMA working >>>>>> group document in the IETF 93 ANIMA WG meeting. This message >>>>>> starts a two-week call on confirming the consensus from the WG >>>>>> meeting. >>>>>> >>>>>> Title: Bootstrapping Key Infrastructures Authors : >>>>>> Pritikin, et al. Filename: >>>>>> draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra >>>>>> >>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra-02 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >> Please express your support or rejection. If you think this document should >>>>>> _not_ be adopted, please also explicitly indicate the reasons. >>>>>> >>>>>> This adoption call will end on Aug 12, 2015. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Sheng + Toerless >>>>>> _______________________________________________ Anima mailing >>>>>> list Anima@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >>>>> _______________________________________________ Anima mailing >>>>> list Anima@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >>>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Anima mailing list >> Anima@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > From nobody Wed Aug 12 23:15:53 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0242E1B2B3E for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 23:15:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8J6ffNfo_fN8 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 23:15:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 34FCB1B2B3D for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 23:15:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BZU99629; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 06:15:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML406-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.37) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 07:15:44 +0100 Received: from NKGEML512-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.33]) by nkgeml406-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.37]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 14:15:37 +0800 From: Sheng Jiang To: Stephen Farrell , Kathleen Moriarty , Hannes Tschofenig Thread-Topic: [Anima] Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document Thread-Index: AQHQ1OE/HnkQw1w0wU+cpSi7Ngc5GZ4HrxAAgAADf4CAAAHsAIABa/Fg Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 06:15:36 +0000 Message-ID: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1E391@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> <55CB2E24.3030604@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <55CB2E24.3030604@cs.tcd.ie> Accept-Language: en-GB, zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.99.197] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: Toerless Eckert , anima , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Anima] Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 06:15:53 -0000 VGhpcyBpcyByZXBseSB0byBib3RoIEhhbm5lcyBhbmQgU3RlcGhlbi4NCg0KVGhlIEFOSU1BIGNo YWlycyBoYXZlIGJlZW4gdmVyeSBjbGVhcmx5IHRvIGVtcGhhc2l6ZWQgdGhhdCB0aGUgZGVzaWdu IHRlYW1zIHdlcmUgb3BlbiB0byBmb3IgYWxsIGludGVyZXN0ZWQgQU5JTUEgcGFydGljaXBhbnRz 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Pj4+IFJlZ2FyZHMsDQo+Pj4+Pg0KPj4+Pj4gU2hlbmcgKyBUb2VybGVzcw0KPj4+Pj4gX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18gQW5pbWENCj5tYWlsaW5n DQo+Pj4+PiBsaXN0IEFuaW1hQGlldGYub3JnDQo+Pj4+PiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9t YWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2FuaW1hDQo+Pj4+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fIEFuaW1hIG1haWxpbmcNCj4+Pj4gbGlzdCBBbmltYUBpZXRmLm9y ZyBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2FuaW1hDQo+Pj4NCg== From nobody Thu Aug 13 04:02:56 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6840D1B383A for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 04:02:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=unavailable Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7SXqBvQbVvvK for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 04:02:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9FBFC1B3864 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 04:02:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.131.134] ([80.92.114.40]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx003) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LcShi-1Yz0Jn2m86-00jqpM; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 13:02:29 +0200 Message-ID: <55CC78BF.20104@gmx.net> Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 13:00:15 +0200 From: Hannes Tschofenig User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sheng Jiang , Stephen Farrell , Kathleen Moriarty References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> <55CB2E24.3030604@cs.tcd.ie> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1E391@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1E391@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> OpenPGP: id=4D776BC9 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="D2qph5OfTiQXDOGKV9EFNBGIviSBmb2Rv" X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:Ii++R6aNynGe5+8X8A7qLEUnBcPowJoDpi180oYJZngZOl0L83Q cjuTT7kpF7oAvQT0Dki/zkY+6jUbeyw7gzfIKacTbn8o23TRZC6XeSMqGVk3h+h+zoWHPZn ScXozUAqFk6zZTGCCy75W+HIEzdAsF2EFaSpYA7kPZSv8v5zj3l0pW9rUPJUTnPcoGYh8ac zmKaD7ko/3FL5XEy5s9sw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:Vs38kPk8lxI=:qGiZ2ZqXmCt5wjhfGJ5MBD PXOfdRsBssQxBrSLfdRepnkRYsoLct8/gWw1Ld4h95m/Y7F9gJCBNIt7h0wkxDfC73F9IHw/I QnbqUfpBNMa/7YqPaxMftQIGtFOiHTG5o3hQ5QyysWki7+cf4dqoE4VE3ebl3CgrbB7H8Fyvp 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X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 11:02:55 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --D2qph5OfTiQXDOGKV9EFNBGIviSBmb2Rv Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Sheng, thanks for your mail. A short response below: On 08/13/2015 08:15 AM, Sheng Jiang wrote: > The ANIMA chairs have been very clearly to emphasized that the design > teams were open to for all interested ANIMA participants. The mail > list for the anima bootstrap design team are also open. It is > currently have 18 subscribed members.=20 Before this discussion took place I have not been under the impression that this design team is open to everyone. If you want to make it open then you might want to consider the idea Kathleen described in her email. As you can imagine if the chairs announce the formation of a design team, ask for volunteers (and not do not accept everyone who volunteers!), and then put the conference bridge details on the Wiki that does not make me think that I can just dial in. Maybe I am the only one who got that impression and everyone else (who cared) dialed into the bridge. > We also encourage Max to > harmonize with other relevant WGs, such as netconf, 6bitsh, 6low. So, > in this case, we are not worrying the closeness issue. Encouraging is always good and an easy thing to do. The question remains about the desired outcome. Is the idea to have one solution only or is it to educate interested parties that there are multiple solutions around? I am advocating the latter and argue that the market should shake it out. I have looked at many of the solutions and even though I am familiar with the security terminology and the generic concepts it took me a while since every community (not only within the IETF but also in other SDOs) use their own language. I have to admit that there is even stuff that I don't fully understand. In ACE we ran a tutorial series to discuss existing work and we managed to cover a few things but certainly not all of it. (I am still planning to schedule more tutorials. Here is the list of things we had looked at: http://www.tschofenig.priv.at/wp/?p=3D1012). >=20 > ANIMA WG has a chartered work item for "bootstrapping a trust > infrastructure", but it is for autonomic network. The scope of the ANIMA group is pretty fuzzy so that it is quite likely that in a few months that some folks in the group will claim that their work has much wider applicability. Already now I read the *constrained environments* terminology in the abstract of the bootstrapping document. It might not be too far fetched to assume that someone will show up in, for example, ACE and notices this lack of alignment with ANIMA. As one of the co-chairs of ACE should I care? The same issue just recently happened with the 6tisch group. Initially their work was focused on a special radio technology (which only very few people care about). Time passed and now there is the believe that it has applicability to other areas as well. IHMO I am not sure whether it was a good idea to do this type of security work in the ANIMA group. I believe the security area would have been a much better place given the broader expertise. I believe that this arrangement has happened because of the use new terminology (particularly bootstrapping) and even within the IESG there might have not been enough understanding that this work is about authentication, authorization and key distribution. Just guessing. Ciao Hannes --D2qph5OfTiQXDOGKV9EFNBGIviSBmb2Rv Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJVzHjAAAoJEGhJURNOOiAtT2gH/iOHWVxwH22Nm7GGsuELND8m TpNFPUBY/4bpUDhC/HgmTa5KzSucLiQ9P6rc3klKfuQLuR6DykhOJAaBR8Ctxn2s sh2ib2LR2wQq92Gp3PO2+m9Oec1YLiXRV9TKNOTEsmcgJRUv/x3PfZGykFrKifJF VXZdjuxH3CuF4MyvD2H79JsHHItBnI+AUjlms/FZpZMecklBgNy0aTpTXkXk3b9y g31pYh0fJrO5tem89BBDssp4+mpwt0ylG1U5tRihGyeCGSVDq5n5RcZr2SY5Z1Rq BEkO5ksNl3GK8YL6z549V295m9FTRBzHXzppSUkGO/mVMVAN9jrEiA2UuSUGsDk= =2Ctp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --D2qph5OfTiQXDOGKV9EFNBGIviSBmb2Rv-- From nobody Thu Aug 13 09:01:12 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB9EE1ACD59 for ; 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Thu, 13 Aug 2015 11:01:05 -0500 Received: from xhc-rcd-x06.cisco.com (173.37.183.80) by xch-rcd-008.cisco.com (173.37.102.18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 11:01:05 -0500 Received: from xmb-rcd-x03.cisco.com ([169.254.7.75]) by xhc-rcd-x06.cisco.com ([173.37.183.80]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 11:01:05 -0500 From: "Max Pritikin (pritikin)" To: Hannes Tschofenig Thread-Topic: [Anima] Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document Thread-Index: AQHQ1OFWwc4tf+OXR0OmKm5ezlREVJ4IiP0AgAADgICAAAHsAIABOpUAgABPiICAAFQHAA== Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 16:01:04 +0000 Message-ID: <2F014D30-692D-4592-AE45-45AF34396763@cisco.com> References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> <55CB2E24.3030604@cs.tcd.ie> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1E391@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CC78BF.20104@gmx.net> In-Reply-To: <55CC78BF.20104@gmx.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [173.37.102.28] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , Kathleen Moriarty , Sheng Jiang , anima , Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [Anima] Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 16:01:10 -0000 On Aug 13, 2015, at 5:00 AM, Hannes Tschofenig = wrote: > Hi Sheng, >=20 > thanks for your mail. A short response below: >=20 > On 08/13/2015 08:15 AM, Sheng Jiang wrote: >> The ANIMA chairs have been very clearly to emphasized that the design >> teams were open to for all interested ANIMA participants. The mail >> list for the anima bootstrap design team are also open. It is >> currently have 18 subscribed members.=20 >=20 > Before this discussion took place I have not been under the impression > that this design team is open to everyone. >=20 > If you want to make it open then you might want to consider the idea > Kathleen described in her email. Kathleen said: =93the design team meeting times and connection information [could be] publ= ished so others can join=94 The anima bootstrap design team mailing list, charter, current drafts, acti= ve team members, meeting notes, collaboration notes, and recurring meeting = times and webex information are all published at the anima wiki as previous= ly noted: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/anima/trac/wiki/Bootstrap > As you can imagine if the chairs announce the formation of a design > team, ask for volunteers (and not do not accept everyone who > volunteers!), and then put the conference bridge details on the Wiki > that does not make me think that I can just dial in. >=20 > Maybe I am the only one who got that impression and everyone else (who > cared) dialed into the bridge. Please join us. Often, even of the people that signed up, only a few folks = show. Honest, I=92m not sure where your frustration is coming from since in= my experience what every working group wants is active involvement!=20 >=20 >> We also encourage Max to >> harmonize with other relevant WGs, such as netconf, 6bitsh, 6low. So, >> in this case, we are not worrying the closeness issue. >=20 > Encouraging is always good and an easy thing to do. >=20 > The question remains about the desired outcome. Is the idea to have one > solution only or is it to educate interested parties that there are > multiple solutions around? >=20 > I am advocating the latter and argue that the market should shake it > out. I have looked at many of the solutions and even though I am > familiar with the security terminology and the generic concepts it took > me a while since every community (not only within the IETF but also in > other SDOs) use their own language. I think good goals include: * Alignment on the language. There may be good reasons to have alternate so= lutions for alternate use cases but there really isn=92t a good excuse for = inconsistent terminology. That would go a long way toward helping us unders= tand each other=92s use cases and local optimizations.=20 * I continue to believe there is room for a unified core around bootstrappi= ng the key infrastructure and feel that much of the divergence between simi= lar efforts is due to us mixing in other concepts. I agree this is a fine p= oint for disagreement as even well established layered architectures consta= ntly have =93layer violation=94 holy wars. And we don=92t have a well estab= lished terminology for discussing possible layers.=20 > I have to admit that there is even > stuff that I don't fully understand. Good to know we=92re all in that club together.=20 > In ACE we ran a tutorial series to discuss existing work and we managed > to cover a few things but certainly not all of it. (I am still planning > to schedule more tutorials. Here is the list of things we had looked at: > http://www.tschofenig.priv.at/wp/?p=3D1012). >> ANIMA WG has a chartered work item for "bootstrapping a trust >> infrastructure", but it is for autonomic network. >=20 > The scope of the ANIMA group is pretty fuzzy so that it is quite likely > that in a few months that some folks in the group will claim that their > work has much wider applicability. Already now I read the *constrained > environments* terminology in the abstract of the bootstrapping document. > It might not be too far fetched to assume that someone will show up in, > for example, ACE and notices this lack of alignment with ANIMA. As one > of the co-chairs of ACE should I care? >From your ace bof summary: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ace/current/msg00336.html > Participants suggested to consider looking at the entire life cycle of > these IoT devices to prevent problems later with provisioning. While > those do not necessarily be standardized in this group there was a > desire to avoid later problems. >=20 > As next steps the charter discussions will have to continue to resolve > some of the raised questions. I agree with the statements that lifecycle provisioning is often original f= uzzy in scope but always turns out to be a source of later problems when no= t addressed.=20 > The same issue just recently happened with the 6tisch group. Initially > their work was focused on a special radio technology (which only very > few people care about). Time passed and now there is the believe that it > has applicability to other areas as well. >=20 > IHMO I am not sure whether it was a good idea to do this type of > security work in the ANIMA group. I believe the security area would have > been a much better place given the broader expertise. >=20 > I believe that this arrangement has happened because of the use new > terminology (particularly bootstrapping) and even within the IESG there > might have not been enough understanding that this work is about > authentication, authorization and key distribution. Just guessing. Authentication, authorization and key distribution concepts are of course w= ell established. What has not been clearly addressed is a clear framework f= or bootstrapping of the key infrastructures. Key distribution is *kinda* th= at except that to date it depends on manually provisioned prior keys or oth= er manual operations by an external third party. The value of the =93bootst= rapping=94 term is it comes from the metaphor about pulling ones self up by= the bootstraps and thus clearly excludes short cuts like assuming a god-mo= de administrator kicking things off.=20 As I noted during saag at IETF#93 I too see value in involving the larger s= ecurity area. We have the existent working groups though so a first step is= to foster better communication toward a common framework.=20 - max >=20 > Ciao > Hannes >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima From nobody Thu Aug 13 13:07:05 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEEF41B3A9B for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 13:07:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.75 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.75 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C6u3sGjAn4ME for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 13:07:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-x22a.google.com (mail-lb0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB1641B3A67 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 13:07:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lbbtg9 with SMTP id tg9so33799536lbb.1 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 13:07:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=aNRHZ98ovml0EofQO7K4V4LpR+9mfalYfzyzV393CDU=; b=v7EMfp0ATU2b5u5mm8tRcxHBshB7IthtC1z5yXyxCLoaoOkfsI0Jm8dzGVfxP3pe32 +wgRJ2KMEGEZ8fQ+9Dn4S56pa19Znpc9468HFvZOs3hgoWyi6puxlLGxDCc6QCHgpL0n lmXdrPaYsPbWsT5QDBJ0y+ga1MHJEMoDr3KwrIeG9d8+WxBBNLiJD+MO5prZbcRX/DbP BYpFG7PkBEa/DbqS2gHaYLBI5tTf2mc0SqwHa4HnTixxoaG/Fw3h2ON7ptye3vqycpou VWcX2dqlTqPyU4Gr6U/L50vu2455hHbf2n8t6y+4Z4l53G8/4C8Ii56ieqQEQnQQpdY6 67+A== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.25.196 with SMTP id e4mr18950948lag.15.1439496421082; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 13:07:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.59.46 with HTTP; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 13:07:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <55CC78BF.20104@gmx.net> References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> <55CB2E24.3030604@cs.tcd.ie> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1E391@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CC78BF.20104@gmx.net> Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 15:07:00 -0500 Message-ID: From: Behcet Sarikaya To: Hannes Tschofenig Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: Toerless Eckert , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , Kathleen Moriarty , Sheng Jiang , anima , Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [Anima] Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: sarikaya@ieee.org List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 20:07:04 -0000 After reading draft-pritikin, I had similar views as Hannes expressed below. In my view the solution should not claim constrained environments applicability. On the other hand, in my view the solution should be developed in each group separately, like aces, and 6lo. In fact 6lo already formed a mailing list but that work stalled because of anima DT. I don't think that it should go to the security area. Regards, Behcet On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 6:00 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > Hi Sheng, > > thanks for your mail. A short response below: > > On 08/13/2015 08:15 AM, Sheng Jiang wrote: >> The ANIMA chairs have been very clearly to emphasized that the design >> teams were open to for all interested ANIMA participants. The mail >> list for the anima bootstrap design team are also open. It is >> currently have 18 subscribed members. > > Before this discussion took place I have not been under the impression > that this design team is open to everyone. > > If you want to make it open then you might want to consider the idea > Kathleen described in her email. > > As you can imagine if the chairs announce the formation of a design > team, ask for volunteers (and not do not accept everyone who > volunteers!), and then put the conference bridge details on the Wiki > that does not make me think that I can just dial in. > > Maybe I am the only one who got that impression and everyone else (who > cared) dialed into the bridge. > >> We also encourage Max to >> harmonize with other relevant WGs, such as netconf, 6bitsh, 6low. So, >> in this case, we are not worrying the closeness issue. > > Encouraging is always good and an easy thing to do. > > The question remains about the desired outcome. Is the idea to have one > solution only or is it to educate interested parties that there are > multiple solutions around? > > I am advocating the latter and argue that the market should shake it > out. I have looked at many of the solutions and even though I am > familiar with the security terminology and the generic concepts it took > me a while since every community (not only within the IETF but also in > other SDOs) use their own language. I have to admit that there is even > stuff that I don't fully understand. > > In ACE we ran a tutorial series to discuss existing work and we managed > to cover a few things but certainly not all of it. (I am still planning > to schedule more tutorials. Here is the list of things we had looked at: > http://www.tschofenig.priv.at/wp/?p=1012). > >> >> ANIMA WG has a chartered work item for "bootstrapping a trust >> infrastructure", but it is for autonomic network. > > The scope of the ANIMA group is pretty fuzzy so that it is quite likely > that in a few months that some folks in the group will claim that their > work has much wider applicability. Already now I read the *constrained > environments* terminology in the abstract of the bootstrapping document. > It might not be too far fetched to assume that someone will show up in, > for example, ACE and notices this lack of alignment with ANIMA. As one > of the co-chairs of ACE should I care? > > The same issue just recently happened with the 6tisch group. Initially > their work was focused on a special radio technology (which only very > few people care about). Time passed and now there is the believe that it > has applicability to other areas as well. > > IHMO I am not sure whether it was a good idea to do this type of > security work in the ANIMA group. I believe the security area would have > been a much better place given the broader expertise. > > I believe that this arrangement has happened because of the use new > terminology (particularly bootstrapping) and even within the IESG there > might have not been enough understanding that this work is about > authentication, authorization and key distribution. Just guessing. > > Ciao > Hannes > > > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > From nobody Thu Aug 13 13:47:00 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16BC31B3AF1 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 13:47:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D_lIZ9Yc-sOr for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 13:46:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-7.cisco.com (alln-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.142.94]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1E3631B3AE4 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 13:46:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=5227; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1439498818; x=1440708418; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=wIoxjWy6/XYyAjSWD11Y0qEvjKPNajXGVGWaJPpT6Us=; b=bhqDWCwoZTsbYWEfFRM/SnSq8fMzaiz1eqen4dxhU5XvqEnJZmyyHbEd yEUBd8H7edZ5KHt4uOQjCTwsN+/B3FDxgs25eT60N4sSQ9YvyO4m4t6Yw 3WtaSCIb8wvXkb4r2uk+NYD5peVzyMzivWArBm9Abss8uzVqn8ORWXcr0 w=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0AfBQApAc1V/5RdJa1dgxtUaQa+BYFrCoV5AoFGOhIBAQEBAQEBfwuEIwEBAQMBAQEBZQMDCwULAgEIGC4hBgslAgQOBRQHh34DCggNy0ENhVEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEXi1OCT4FXCgYCAR0zB4MYgRQFlRoBin6BbYFKh0SJXoNPg2cmgj+BPnGBBUOBBAEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.15,672,1432598400"; d="scan'208";a="178362115" Received: from rcdn-core-12.cisco.com ([173.37.93.148]) by alln-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Aug 2015 20:46:57 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com (xch-aln-001.cisco.com [173.36.7.11]) by rcdn-core-12.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t7DKkvrW009785 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 13 Aug 2015 20:46:57 GMT Received: from xch-aln-001.cisco.com (173.36.7.11) by XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com (173.36.7.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 15:46:56 -0500 Received: from xhc-rcd-x14.cisco.com (173.37.183.88) by xch-aln-001.cisco.com (173.36.7.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 15:46:56 -0500 Received: from xmb-rcd-x03.cisco.com ([169.254.7.75]) by xhc-rcd-x14.cisco.com ([173.37.183.88]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 15:46:55 -0500 From: "Max Pritikin (pritikin)" To: "sarikaya@ieee.org" Thread-Topic: [Anima] Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document Thread-Index: AQHQ1OFWwc4tf+OXR0OmKm5ezlREVJ4IiP0AgAADgICAAAHsAIABOpUAgABPiICAAJjCAIAACyCA Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 20:46:55 +0000 Message-ID: <7488899E-F54C-4953-8570-E3BA1E87FCE3@cisco.com> References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> <55CB2E24.3030604@cs.tcd.ie> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1E391@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CC78BF.20104@gmx.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [173.36.7.12] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: <41EED38E906A43458AAE5270545B0027@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Stephen Farrell , "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , Kathleen Moriarty , Hannes Tschofenig , anima , Sheng Jiang Subject: Re: [Anima] Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 20:47:00 -0000 On Aug 13, 2015, at 2:07 PM, Behcet Sarikaya wrote= : > After reading draft-pritikin, I had similar views as Hannes expressed bel= ow. >=20 > In my view the solution should not claim constrained environments > applicability. Thanks for providing the review feedback.=20 The bootstrapping document uses the term =93constrained environments=94 in = the sense of a network environment that provides limited connectivity due t= o the untrusted nature of the device (e.g. don=92t let untrusted devices ge= nerate or receive traffic) or the security characteristics of the network (= e.g. air gapped). This is distinct from the use of the term =93constrained = environment=94 as used to indicate code that is running in a =93constrained= device=94.=20 I=92ve added an issue to the bootstrapping document github to track this an= d ensure the language is clarified.=20 - max > On the other hand, in my view the solution should be developed in each > group separately, like aces, and 6lo. In fact 6lo already formed a > mailing list but that work stalled because of anima DT. > I don't think that it should go to the security area. >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Behcet >=20 >=20 > On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 6:00 AM, Hannes Tschofenig > wrote: >> Hi Sheng, >>=20 >> thanks for your mail. A short response below: >>=20 >> On 08/13/2015 08:15 AM, Sheng Jiang wrote: >>> The ANIMA chairs have been very clearly to emphasized that the design >>> teams were open to for all interested ANIMA participants. The mail >>> list for the anima bootstrap design team are also open. It is >>> currently have 18 subscribed members. >>=20 >> Before this discussion took place I have not been under the impression >> that this design team is open to everyone. >>=20 >> If you want to make it open then you might want to consider the idea >> Kathleen described in her email. >>=20 >> As you can imagine if the chairs announce the formation of a design >> team, ask for volunteers (and not do not accept everyone who >> volunteers!), and then put the conference bridge details on the Wiki >> that does not make me think that I can just dial in. >>=20 >> Maybe I am the only one who got that impression and everyone else (who >> cared) dialed into the bridge. >>=20 >>> We also encourage Max to >>> harmonize with other relevant WGs, such as netconf, 6bitsh, 6low. So, >>> in this case, we are not worrying the closeness issue. >>=20 >> Encouraging is always good and an easy thing to do. >>=20 >> The question remains about the desired outcome. Is the idea to have one >> solution only or is it to educate interested parties that there are >> multiple solutions around? >>=20 >> I am advocating the latter and argue that the market should shake it >> out. I have looked at many of the solutions and even though I am >> familiar with the security terminology and the generic concepts it took >> me a while since every community (not only within the IETF but also in >> other SDOs) use their own language. I have to admit that there is even >> stuff that I don't fully understand. >>=20 >> In ACE we ran a tutorial series to discuss existing work and we managed >> to cover a few things but certainly not all of it. (I am still planning >> to schedule more tutorials. Here is the list of things we had looked at: >> http://www.tschofenig.priv.at/wp/?p=3D1012). >>=20 >>>=20 >>> ANIMA WG has a chartered work item for "bootstrapping a trust >>> infrastructure", but it is for autonomic network. >>=20 >> The scope of the ANIMA group is pretty fuzzy so that it is quite likely >> that in a few months that some folks in the group will claim that their >> work has much wider applicability. Already now I read the *constrained >> environments* terminology in the abstract of the bootstrapping document. >> It might not be too far fetched to assume that someone will show up in, >> for example, ACE and notices this lack of alignment with ANIMA. As one >> of the co-chairs of ACE should I care? >>=20 >> The same issue just recently happened with the 6tisch group. Initially >> their work was focused on a special radio technology (which only very >> few people care about). Time passed and now there is the believe that it >> has applicability to other areas as well. >>=20 >> IHMO I am not sure whether it was a good idea to do this type of >> security work in the ANIMA group. I believe the security area would have >> been a much better place given the broader expertise. >>=20 >> I believe that this arrangement has happened because of the use new >> terminology (particularly bootstrapping) and even within the IESG there >> might have not been enough understanding that this work is about >> authentication, authorization and key distribution. Just guessing. >>=20 >> Ciao >> Hannes >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Anima mailing list >> Anima@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >>=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima From nobody Thu Aug 13 13:53:29 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A37CE1B3B0C for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 13:53:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AxqtBnXjHnrk for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 13:53:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.86.72]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DA0F41B3B0B for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 13:53:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=4258; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1439499205; x=1440708805; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:mime-version; bh=lX8aBfZBoIc1I9xHCdAJc3RegUuT8MnZ6JnbZXlObz8=; b=KEgtTCzmTPuCtllErEN9OYY/BzCPl72W/sf7feI36OGdqZ14t74zeRv7 AZxcuc1pFPOQWsFe5cIJfN1gFmFimgWlWl9JfQISJ4dwEO2otF+Y3JdUi 1MTz3R0kE8IobMDsbRbmSw5fAbr37z2KSiBTrNbylolHJDDwiS4if+xrr Q=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0CEAgDEAs1V/5ldJa1dgxtUab4BAQmBawyFdwKBRjgUAQEBAQEBAYEKhCMBAQEFAQE3NAsMIAQBAQEJGgQWBRMfCQ4TiC4N0RkBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEXkAoBAVANgxKBFAWNTodMb4QVh2UDgUpGg2WQRoNnJoIOHBWBXh4zAYENgT4BAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.15,672,1432598400"; d="scan'208";a="24072807" Received: from rcdn-core-2.cisco.com ([173.37.93.153]) by rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 13 Aug 2015 20:53:24 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by rcdn-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t7DKrORH003050 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 13 Aug 2015 20:53:24 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t7DKrOwG026178; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 13:53:24 -0700 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id t7DKrNpf026177; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 13:53:23 -0700 Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 13:53:23 -0700 From: Toerless Eckert To: Hannes Tschofenig Message-ID: <20150813205323.GA22978@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: Stephen Farrell , Kathleen Moriarty , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , anima , Sheng Jiang Subject: [Anima] Design team mode of operations !!! Re: Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 20:53:27 -0000 Hannes, answering to your first point: Before setting up the design teams, we (anima-chairs) did consult with more experienced folks and got clear recommendations that design teams are the best way to focus work on widely diverging topics to accelerat results. We also got clear warnings that design teams in the past have ben right or wrongfully seen as evil, secretive, preoccupied etc.. pp. We thought to understand how we could avoid the badness and just epxloid the goodness by setting up our design teams accordingly, and i thought i had more than once explain in the WG how the anima design teams are open. But to be very sure, i have tried to write it down more complete on the wiki: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/anima/trac/wiki (See general rules for design teams) Let me know if you still have concerns about the modus operandi of design teams and i am happy to have us fix it up/refine it. Cheers Toerless On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 01:10:16PM +0200, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > I would like to raise a concern at this point in time. > > I personally believe that the use of design teams in the IETF has become > a new way of excluding people (not only in ANIMA but also in other groups). > > Design teams run for a (very) long period of time (often without a clear > mandate), are put together by the chairs (who decide about the > participants and also who they do not want on the design team) and the > entire decision making process is less clear in the end. > > The situation becomes worse when there is actually work going on > elsewhere in the IETF with a very similar scope. > > I am raising this now because Max approached me at the last IETF meeting > and was a big advocate of inclusiveness and the need to harmonize > activities in the area of bootstrapping (which I call key distribution) > in the IETF. Today, this does not work since even participating in many > of the design teams is not possible. > > Ciao > Hannes > > > On 08/12/2015 11:28 AM, Sheng Jiang wrote: > > The chairs conclude there is a consensus in the ANIMA working to have this draft become a working group draft - no one had any objections to adopting the document and it targets one of our chartered work items. The authors should submit the next version as an ANIMA working group document (draft-ietf-anima-*-00). > > > > This authors and the ANIMA bootstrap design team should keep working on this document as editor towards its maturity. The authors and the ANIMA bootstrap design team should report any major modifications to the WG, either mail list or face-to-face meeting, and acquire consensus in ANIMA WG. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Sheng & Toerless > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Sheng Jiang > >> Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2015 10:44 AM > >> To: anima > >> Cc: Toerless Eckert; anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org > >> Subject: [Anima] Confirmation of consensus to adopt > >> draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document, ends > >> Aug 12, 2015 > >> > >> There was clear consensus for adopting > >> draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as > >> a ANIMA working group document in the IETF 93 ANIMA WG meeting. This > >> message > >> starts a two-week call on confirming the consensus from the WG meeting. > >> > >> Title: Bootstrapping Key Infrastructures > >> Authors : Pritikin, et al. > >> Filename: draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra > >> > >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra-02 > >> > >> Please express your support or rejection. If you think this document should > >> _not_ be > >> adopted, please also explicitly indicate the reasons. > >> > >> This adoption call will end on Aug 12, 2015. > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Sheng + Toerless > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Anima mailing list > >> Anima@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > > _______________________________________________ > > Anima mailing list > > Anima@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > > > -- --- Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com From nobody Thu Aug 13 14:02:05 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5949B1B3B0B for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 14:02:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AWCXPdITFKk8 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 14:02:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com [173.37.86.80]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 706801B2DB8 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 14:02:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=5086; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1439499722; x=1440709322; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:mime-version; bh=9bIwU2zhEvz7kJdgULkGwEHBzdgOgs2DR2K4VwDU0vo=; b=HELtSee4OdmhHoG2ovdMlMhQ2n67vFCrREjx9KNuo8YfUcokUt8KkUjQ MhK1sqRVpTrFhqgZUoic0fbtRzWly+wy19FjyGj/PNhXt102y55sHNFfr OaQed3bHnYPDmAKlGPq8bYRzYWj0c6IqTJFR4JzJgfiWOZ25L44f9LLBs 8=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0ARAwAiBc1V/4UNJK1dgxtUab0JeAEJgWsMhRhfAoFGOBQBAQEBAQEBgQqEIwEBAQUBATc0CwwgBAEBAQkaBBYFEx8JDhOILg3RGAEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARePeQoGAgFQDYMSgRQFjU6HTIUEh2UDgUpGg2WMAIRGg2cmgg4cFYFeHjMBgQSBRwEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.15,672,1432598400"; d="scan'208";a="18377621" Received: from alln-core-11.cisco.com ([173.36.13.133]) by rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Aug 2015 21:02:01 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by alln-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t7DL20Zq032443 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 13 Aug 2015 21:02:01 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t7DL206P026759; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 14:02:00 -0700 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id t7DL1xtE026755; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 14:01:59 -0700 Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 14:01:59 -0700 From: Toerless Eckert To: Hannes Tschofenig Message-ID: <20150813210159.GB22978@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: Stephen Farrell , Kathleen Moriarty , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , anima , Sheng Jiang Subject: [Anima] cross-group bootstrap coordination - Re: Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 21:02:04 -0000 Hannes, answering to your second point: IMHO, the croos-group coordination of bootstrap activies is not specifically a problem correlating to the design team. Its just that for bootstrap coordination, and discussions we had obviously happened in the bootstrap design team. I hope my prior email explain how that should not have stood in the way of you participating. I had sent out even to the whole anima maling list a note about me having started to try summarizing what we think to know about cross-group secure bootstrap work. I just tried to update it too: http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/bootstrapping-across-wgs This is linked from the ANIMA WiKi bootstrap design team page too. To restate what i put into the first section there: The main issue is that we have limited cycles, and have these ADs in our back reminding us to do our charter item work (which ultimately is a good thing ;-). Cross-group coordination is not something we've manaed to embody as an ANIMA (or any other WG charter item). So at this point in time we can basically do two things: a) See if other WGs have bootstrap requirments that fall directly into the ANIMA scope and then work on those requirements. b) Figure out for example via outside chartered WG activities how else we can do more cross-group coordination. In IETF93 we primarily did a lot of work a), b) with NETCONF and still have some good amount (IMHO) of followup to do to from that. In the past we did do some analysis with Homenet participants, but on the bootstrap and security side there was AFAIK no overlap. And of course there is a lot of IoT WG activities and i am happy for any help of how we can better wrap our head around making progress there! Cheers Toerless On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 01:10:16PM +0200, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > I would like to raise a concern at this point in time. > > I personally believe that the use of design teams in the IETF has become > a new way of excluding people (not only in ANIMA but also in other groups). > > Design teams run for a (very) long period of time (often without a clear > mandate), are put together by the chairs (who decide about the > participants and also who they do not want on the design team) and the > entire decision making process is less clear in the end. > > The situation becomes worse when there is actually work going on > elsewhere in the IETF with a very similar scope. > > I am raising this now because Max approached me at the last IETF meeting > and was a big advocate of inclusiveness and the need to harmonize > activities in the area of bootstrapping (which I call key distribution) > in the IETF. Today, this does not work since even participating in many > of the design teams is not possible. > > Ciao > Hannes > > > On 08/12/2015 11:28 AM, Sheng Jiang wrote: > > The chairs conclude there is a consensus in the ANIMA working to have this draft become a working group draft - no one had any objections to adopting the document and it targets one of our chartered work items. The authors should submit the next version as an ANIMA working group document (draft-ietf-anima-*-00). > > > > This authors and the ANIMA bootstrap design team should keep working on this document as editor towards its maturity. The authors and the ANIMA bootstrap design team should report any major modifications to the WG, either mail list or face-to-face meeting, and acquire consensus in ANIMA WG. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Sheng & Toerless > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Sheng Jiang > >> Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2015 10:44 AM > >> To: anima > >> Cc: Toerless Eckert; anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org > >> Subject: [Anima] Confirmation of consensus to adopt > >> draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document, ends > >> Aug 12, 2015 > >> > >> There was clear consensus for adopting > >> draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as > >> a ANIMA working group document in the IETF 93 ANIMA WG meeting. This > >> message > >> starts a two-week call on confirming the consensus from the WG meeting. > >> > >> Title: Bootstrapping Key Infrastructures > >> Authors : Pritikin, et al. > >> Filename: draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra > >> > >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra-02 > >> > >> Please express your support or rejection. If you think this document should > >> _not_ be > >> adopted, please also explicitly indicate the reasons. > >> > >> This adoption call will end on Aug 12, 2015. > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Sheng + Toerless > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Anima mailing list > >> Anima@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > > _______________________________________________ > > Anima mailing list > > Anima@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > > > -- --- Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com From nobody Thu Aug 13 14:10:37 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA3801A901C for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 14:10:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B3sV6jid30gy for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 14:10:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.86.78]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 84B6A1B3B1F for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 14:10:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1255; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1439500234; x=1440709834; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=A0s8HE/kynL2VklXPb9i9tddIHB4kQmAkRBAh4HcYqE=; b=bf1GVvULJdLhQpXT966HOgjgwjBbmsYulpAE9Cd1hM2F8OufSQc7S+Tt Tr68qGSIEfbmlw/BR8X5IHg9dYZIN3VPOZ8UXQD91lkYAzZiAL4cVYPs4 CDhUnh8mtuK9AK2bHSvtziyauSLtadxdkRphO/7f/6QSfYbwFsknTEIyv M=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0B4BQANB81V/5NdJa1dgxtUab4LgXWCQ4M2AoFHORMBAQEBAQEBgQqEIwEBAQMBOjQLBQsLGAklDwVJE4gmCA3RJAEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARMEi1OEJhEBUQeDGIEUBYxadIdMhQSHZQOaIiaCDhwVgV4eM4EOgT4BAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.15,672,1432598400"; d="scan'208";a="18448585" Received: from rcdn-core-11.cisco.com ([173.37.93.147]) by rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Aug 2015 21:10:33 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by rcdn-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t7DLAXmt018651 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 13 Aug 2015 21:10:33 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t7DLAWai027319; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 14:10:32 -0700 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id t7DLAWZQ027318; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 14:10:32 -0700 Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 14:10:32 -0700 From: Toerless Eckert To: Michael Richardson Message-ID: <20150813211032.GC22978@cisco.com> References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> <10285.1439390810@sandelman.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <10285.1439390810@sandelman.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , Kathleen Moriarty , Sheng Jiang , Hannes Tschofenig , anima , Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [Anima] Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 21:10:36 -0000 On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 10:46:50AM -0400, Michael Richardson wrote: > In this case, the chairs (and AD) forced us to build a charter: > https://tools.ietf.org/wg/anima/trac/wiki/Bootstrap > > so we have a mandate. Well, the WG-chairs did what the ADs asked, and i am sure the ADs did what the official IETF process is for handing out email aliases that are considered to be sub-WG mailing aliases (for constructs like design teams formed to deliver part of working group charter items). This may sound all a bit like process badness, but it does help to stay focussed on deliverables of the WGs. > is still open, and the mailing list is archived and open. > > > The situation becomes worse when there is actually work going on > > elsewhere in the IETF with a very similar scope. > > Agreed, and I hate when this work elsewhere is done under NDA. > (I really really hate it, and it pains not to point fingers and name names.) How is that even possible in the IETF ? Or where you complaining about other bodies ? Cheeers Toerless > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- > > > -- --- Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com From nobody Thu Aug 13 14:50:34 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E7451B3B59 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 14:50:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l3vyrJEvP8CY for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 14:50:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.86.79]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2A9F51B3B55 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 14:50:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=5086; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1439502628; x=1440712228; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=elfoWQU/KZWx1oyljC2nc4GmEfVj3Lc8JVTtWQHofFI=; b=Csf2piGie6MgpMaEupc5rX9LFxnHNoP9ADfETk3pbJlu+KjcT5Mfm0rs 08DkRkE54b2E7cDHEWaKm0g4oHhZhOx4WeS0+bp99wFHF3yCCxIGt/lnb M/OnbU8CQ52glueVP7ceijE9HFJr+WZq8jZRU5x0Mxtk2BW0aGLS1FT+0 4=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0AqBQAiEM1V/49dJa1dgxtUar9/hXkCgUc8EAEBAQEBAQGBCoQjAQEBAwEdHS4DAgwFCwsYCSUPBUknB4gLCA3RIwEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAReLU4QmEQFRB4MYgRQFjFp0hD+DDYxpA4FKh0SNLYNnJoIOHBWBXh6BOgcXB4EgAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.15,672,1432598400"; d="scan'208";a="18448450" Received: from rcdn-core-7.cisco.com ([173.37.93.143]) by rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Aug 2015 21:50:27 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by rcdn-core-7.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t7DLoQRb017471 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 13 Aug 2015 21:50:27 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t7DLoQVJ029869; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 14:50:26 -0700 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id t7DLoPsD029868; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 14:50:25 -0700 Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 14:50:25 -0700 From: Toerless Eckert To: Hannes Tschofenig Message-ID: <20150813215025.GD22978@cisco.com> References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> <55CB2E24.3030604@cs.tcd.ie> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1E391@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CC78BF.20104@gmx.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <55CC78BF.20104@gmx.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: Kathleen Moriarty , Stephen Farrell , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , anima , Sheng Jiang Subject: Re: [Anima] Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 21:50:33 -0000 On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 01:00:15PM +0200, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > As you can imagine if the chairs announce the formation of a design > team, ask for volunteers (and not do not accept everyone who > volunteers!), and then put the conference bridge details on the Wiki > that does not make me think that I can just dial in. The reason for asking first for volunteers was trying to elecit actual commitments from folks and give them credit in "design team members" section. I am pretty sure i did send afterwards another email stating that everybody is welcome to join the maling list and participate after the call for volunteers was through. This may not have been ideal or ideally communicated, but right now i wouldn't know how to do it better. If we do not explicity ask folks to state their names and volunteer cycles to work towards a well defined charter of the design team, we easily end up with just a discussion club. > The question remains about the desired outcome. Is the idea to have one > solution only or is it to educate interested parties that there are > multiple solutions around? I for once start forming the picture of a common framework between NETCNF and ANIMA wrt bootstrap. I might be possible, and it might even be useful to extended this over time to what other WG needs - with work. > I am advocating the latter and argue that the market should shake it > out. I have looked at many of the solutions and even though I am > familiar with the security terminology and the generic concepts it took > me a while since every community (not only within the IETF but also in > other SDOs) use their own language. I have to admit that there is even > stuff that I don't fully understand. Some thoughts: "Learning curves are for pussies" (TM) Jon Stewart, retired *sob*: Aka: trying to invent bootstrap from scratch over and over again does lead to more variety but not better bootstrap. Awareness of what else is out there and then modify/expand accordingly to what you need sound like a better strategy to me. "Name recognition" Calling the same things differently is the main reason to create confusion. We've already seen this between ANIMA and NETCONF. It certainly does help to find some whatever slow way to create common terminology for common elements/steps in bootstrap. Avoiding to reinvent security and allowing easy validation of security. I am sure there are lots of RFC to detail these points ;-) > In ACE we ran a tutorial series to discuss existing work and we managed > to cover a few things but certainly not all of it. (I am still planning > to schedule more tutorials. Here is the list of things we had looked at: > http://www.tschofenig.priv.at/wp/?p=1012). Nice! > The scope of the ANIMA group is pretty fuzzy so that it is quite likely > that in a few months that some folks in the group will claim that their > work has much wider applicability. Already now I read the *constrained > environments* terminology in the abstract of the bootstrapping document. > It might not be too far fetched to assume that someone will show up in, > for example, ACE and notices this lack of alignment with ANIMA. As one > of the co-chairs of ACE should I care? I'd just try to figure out whatever form of collaboration helps us to better achieve our mutual charter goals first. Then bother about the rest. Of course every WG would love to see their work result be used accordingly in other places in the IETF. With ANIMA being in OPS and ACE being in SEC, its a lot more likely that we in ANIMA have to be a lot more worried about correctly reusing other IETF WGs work result appropriately and to fill our your areas mandatory RFC section accordingly. There's is not mandatory "autonomic considerations" sections in every RFC ;-)) > IHMO I am not sure whether it was a good idea to do this type of > security work in the ANIMA group. I believe the security area would have > been a much better place given the broader expertise. Yeah, and the routing piece of ANIMA would have been done a lot better in the routing area and the our signaling in the INT area and so on. ANIMA is about operationalizing a system concept by building it from the appropriate components, thats why it's in OPS. For the most part, the components where specific expertise from those areas is required, anima just reuses and combines other IETF defined components anyhow. It also drives me mad (ok, maybe i was mad in before) to hear that experts refuse to participate in work where their input is welcome because it has the wrong area label attached to it. > I believe that this arrangement has happened because of the use new > terminology (particularly bootstrapping) and even within the IESG there > might have not been enough understanding that this work is about > authentication, authorization and key distribution. Just guessing. I don't think we're developing new AAK mechanisms, but combining/applying known components. Cheers Toerless From nobody Thu Aug 13 14:51:39 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5331E1B3B59 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 14:51:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TGmKplwzyRYZ for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 14:51:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-7.cisco.com (alln-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.142.94]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6D1F91B3B55 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 14:51:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=4636; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1439502698; x=1440712298; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=Si0YbDch7OWt7vEs40qO5Na59i7nKe/ju2ykMlRLToE=; b=I2cS+otDi+/FZh8zQSxajPW8PbQSsvOOharVFsIUKSBkdJZYGt9mkGa/ M1WATmjUnaTTQR8KreQmKLtDGkrmzHWy/bdrBcxLWiu331rmKt/SvhG9T QPcDoO//MyfooSskEqXVemubLE+DNFz9bU+5c/XGqFQxV2Y33A9KDV2ro 8=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0AeBQCvEM1V/5tdJa1dgxtUab92CoV5AoFHOxEBAQEBAQEBgQqEJAEBBAEBATcuAwMLEAsYCSUPBRNJFAeHfgMSDdEjAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBF4tTgk+BVxACAVAHgxiBFAWNTodMjGkDgUqEK4MZjS2DZyaCDhwVgV4eM4JMAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.15,672,1432598400"; d="scan'208";a="178378019" Received: from rcdn-core-4.cisco.com ([173.37.93.155]) by alln-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Aug 2015 21:51:37 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by rcdn-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t7DLpZ3g003729 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 13 Aug 2015 21:51:36 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t7DLpZqP029968; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 14:51:35 -0700 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id t7DLpYO3029966; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 14:51:34 -0700 Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 14:51:34 -0700 From: Toerless Eckert To: sarikaya@ieee.org Message-ID: <20150813215134.GE22978@cisco.com> References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> <55CB2E24.3030604@cs.tcd.ie> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1E391@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CC78BF.20104@gmx.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: Hannes Tschofenig , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , Kathleen Moriarty , Stephen Farrell , anima , Sheng Jiang Subject: Re: [Anima] Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 21:51:39 -0000 How was 6lo work influenced/stalled by anything ANIMA did/does/ This is the first i heard. Please explain. Cheers Toerless On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 03:07:00PM -0500, Behcet Sarikaya wrote: > After reading draft-pritikin, I had similar views as Hannes expressed below. > > In my view the solution should not claim constrained environments > applicability. > > On the other hand, in my view the solution should be developed in each > group separately, like aces, and 6lo. In fact 6lo already formed a > mailing list but that work stalled because of anima DT. > I don't think that it should go to the security area. > > Regards, > > Behcet > > > On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 6:00 AM, Hannes Tschofenig > wrote: > > Hi Sheng, > > > > thanks for your mail. A short response below: > > > > On 08/13/2015 08:15 AM, Sheng Jiang wrote: > >> The ANIMA chairs have been very clearly to emphasized that the design > >> teams were open to for all interested ANIMA participants. The mail > >> list for the anima bootstrap design team are also open. It is > >> currently have 18 subscribed members. > > > > Before this discussion took place I have not been under the impression > > that this design team is open to everyone. > > > > If you want to make it open then you might want to consider the idea > > Kathleen described in her email. > > > > As you can imagine if the chairs announce the formation of a design > > team, ask for volunteers (and not do not accept everyone who > > volunteers!), and then put the conference bridge details on the Wiki > > that does not make me think that I can just dial in. > > > > Maybe I am the only one who got that impression and everyone else (who > > cared) dialed into the bridge. > > > >> We also encourage Max to > >> harmonize with other relevant WGs, such as netconf, 6bitsh, 6low. So, > >> in this case, we are not worrying the closeness issue. > > > > Encouraging is always good and an easy thing to do. > > > > The question remains about the desired outcome. Is the idea to have one > > solution only or is it to educate interested parties that there are > > multiple solutions around? > > > > I am advocating the latter and argue that the market should shake it > > out. I have looked at many of the solutions and even though I am > > familiar with the security terminology and the generic concepts it took > > me a while since every community (not only within the IETF but also in > > other SDOs) use their own language. I have to admit that there is even > > stuff that I don't fully understand. > > > > In ACE we ran a tutorial series to discuss existing work and we managed > > to cover a few things but certainly not all of it. (I am still planning > > to schedule more tutorials. Here is the list of things we had looked at: > > http://www.tschofenig.priv.at/wp/?p=1012). > > > >> > >> ANIMA WG has a chartered work item for "bootstrapping a trust > >> infrastructure", but it is for autonomic network. > > > > The scope of the ANIMA group is pretty fuzzy so that it is quite likely > > that in a few months that some folks in the group will claim that their > > work has much wider applicability. Already now I read the *constrained > > environments* terminology in the abstract of the bootstrapping document. > > It might not be too far fetched to assume that someone will show up in, > > for example, ACE and notices this lack of alignment with ANIMA. As one > > of the co-chairs of ACE should I care? > > > > The same issue just recently happened with the 6tisch group. Initially > > their work was focused on a special radio technology (which only very > > few people care about). Time passed and now there is the believe that it > > has applicability to other areas as well. > > > > IHMO I am not sure whether it was a good idea to do this type of > > security work in the ANIMA group. I believe the security area would have > > been a much better place given the broader expertise. > > > > I believe that this arrangement has happened because of the use new > > terminology (particularly bootstrapping) and even within the IESG there > > might have not been enough understanding that this work is about > > authentication, authorization and key distribution. Just guessing. > > > > Ciao > > Hannes > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Anima mailing list > > Anima@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > > > > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org From nobody Thu Aug 13 15:26:30 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D798B1B3B95 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 15:26:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.75 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.75 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YBoAOSCy3T0d for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 15:26:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-la0-x22b.google.com (mail-la0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c03::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE3171ACE83 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 15:26:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lahi9 with SMTP id i9so33990917lah.2 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 15:26:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=grwS0NWL8u+bsH0ECmvqgymV+SkxG+x6OKrNP4cEGeg=; b=UcTqreAXSzW361rrmMyok2WXdfr3HPMBxr9kNf8pOF6YlqtZ3fE79zb36ojT682vLb fZ5PYR6iR7bBR7Z2qXbPwLNIh25l1GNBGeZR4siJcDzYxeafMYR4hojX9xhCkOoYtWjE WwujAykZfHpEoPL3sBEcyok2VhFOrzQ+NyuwqTasJPGYE7snHufg8e2FGOu7gJtiS49p eC7umjq5FhcE2RQy1B5V7ytu6y5Psn6Y4B3cdxPmcMguLWtzgYWdSyZqrgYqILXXttAG CAUlGgQJq2ZHycmYzra/Ou9cxaedaDmQSAU9WaIjANuWEK/foH/FSG4YqMiUszEmSmR0 OQyQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.2.200 with SMTP id 8mr23554021law.115.1439504784312; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 15:26:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.59.46 with HTTP; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 15:26:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20150813215134.GE22978@cisco.com> References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> <55CB2E24.3030604@cs.tcd.ie> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1E391@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CC78BF.20104@gmx.net> <20150813215134.GE22978@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 17:26:24 -0500 Message-ID: From: Behcet Sarikaya To: Toerless Eckert Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: Hannes Tschofenig , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , Kathleen Moriarty , Stephen Farrell , anima , Sheng Jiang Subject: Re: [Anima] Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: sarikaya@ieee.org List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 22:26:28 -0000 On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > How was 6lo work influenced/stalled by anything ANIMA did/does/ This is > the first i heard. Please explain. > Because people got the impression that the anima bootstrapping work may also solve 6lo problem. I had conversations with some people to that effect. Of course there may be other factors involved. Regards, Behcet > Cheers > Toerless > > On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 03:07:00PM -0500, Behcet Sarikaya wrote: >> After reading draft-pritikin, I had similar views as Hannes expressed below. >> >> In my view the solution should not claim constrained environments >> applicability. >> >> On the other hand, in my view the solution should be developed in each >> group separately, like aces, and 6lo. In fact 6lo already formed a >> mailing list but that work stalled because of anima DT. >> I don't think that it should go to the security area. >> >> Regards, >> >> Behcet >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 6:00 AM, Hannes Tschofenig >> wrote: >> > Hi Sheng, >> > >> > thanks for your mail. A short response below: >> > >> > On 08/13/2015 08:15 AM, Sheng Jiang wrote: >> >> The ANIMA chairs have been very clearly to emphasized that the design >> >> teams were open to for all interested ANIMA participants. The mail >> >> list for the anima bootstrap design team are also open. It is >> >> currently have 18 subscribed members. >> > >> > Before this discussion took place I have not been under the impression >> > that this design team is open to everyone. >> > >> > If you want to make it open then you might want to consider the idea >> > Kathleen described in her email. >> > >> > As you can imagine if the chairs announce the formation of a design >> > team, ask for volunteers (and not do not accept everyone who >> > volunteers!), and then put the conference bridge details on the Wiki >> > that does not make me think that I can just dial in. >> > >> > Maybe I am the only one who got that impression and everyone else (who >> > cared) dialed into the bridge. >> > >> >> We also encourage Max to >> >> harmonize with other relevant WGs, such as netconf, 6bitsh, 6low. So, >> >> in this case, we are not worrying the closeness issue. >> > >> > Encouraging is always good and an easy thing to do. >> > >> > The question remains about the desired outcome. Is the idea to have one >> > solution only or is it to educate interested parties that there are >> > multiple solutions around? >> > >> > I am advocating the latter and argue that the market should shake it >> > out. I have looked at many of the solutions and even though I am >> > familiar with the security terminology and the generic concepts it took >> > me a while since every community (not only within the IETF but also in >> > other SDOs) use their own language. I have to admit that there is even >> > stuff that I don't fully understand. >> > >> > In ACE we ran a tutorial series to discuss existing work and we managed >> > to cover a few things but certainly not all of it. (I am still planning >> > to schedule more tutorials. Here is the list of things we had looked at: >> > http://www.tschofenig.priv.at/wp/?p=1012). >> > >> >> >> >> ANIMA WG has a chartered work item for "bootstrapping a trust >> >> infrastructure", but it is for autonomic network. >> > >> > The scope of the ANIMA group is pretty fuzzy so that it is quite likely >> > that in a few months that some folks in the group will claim that their >> > work has much wider applicability. Already now I read the *constrained >> > environments* terminology in the abstract of the bootstrapping document. >> > It might not be too far fetched to assume that someone will show up in, >> > for example, ACE and notices this lack of alignment with ANIMA. As one >> > of the co-chairs of ACE should I care? >> > >> > The same issue just recently happened with the 6tisch group. Initially >> > their work was focused on a special radio technology (which only very >> > few people care about). Time passed and now there is the believe that it >> > has applicability to other areas as well. >> > >> > IHMO I am not sure whether it was a good idea to do this type of >> > security work in the ANIMA group. I believe the security area would have >> > been a much better place given the broader expertise. >> > >> > I believe that this arrangement has happened because of the use new >> > terminology (particularly bootstrapping) and even within the IESG there >> > might have not been enough understanding that this work is about >> > authentication, authorization and key distribution. Just guessing. >> > >> > Ciao >> > Hannes >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Anima mailing list >> > Anima@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Anima mailing list >> Anima@ietf.org From nobody Thu Aug 13 15:52:32 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CD9F1B3BBF for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 15:52:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id StVWkh_pUMp9 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 15:52:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-la0-x241.google.com (mail-la0-x241.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c03::241]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BEA871B3BBD for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 15:52:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by labqg3 with SMTP id qg3so3247373lab.0 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 15:52:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=XyrRw0uy1+FDxT1DjoPPsi2Sn6an52vGraEIp6Rc3y8=; b=0gYW/b1CJVxs5kedX4EAeVPEwY9DkPrbjyvGncuOQsuEvjDFfrSELKpScqpXC8my6g ptZNFG77Be0vfNTkt08oCVv8DwHk++s04naTyosHlW9EGBUJ57JxxtQ12toYa3SOKhNO obRI+XKqS9O24dJQfzp4d6DcoiIEPFPginF5FXvyVpUxsErQ5NiJJwLrDUqys2xNsSgu dBS1zpXVzbTutJP+3Qjpv2zaUWFM3H7nb8JyFV4JVk50NFb5+VPm5EjlvXCrFugF0Efd L0+CSirQB2R15aPcN2IjTVYarmzTd6pTcNnHsJ2xARdas+F8WD+2sHO67wRL8YL3nLUZ F21Q== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.20.196 with SMTP id p4mr38981757lae.121.1439506346090; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 15:52:26 -0700 (PDT) Sender: robert.cragie@gmail.com Received: by 10.25.83.65 with HTTP; Thu, 13 Aug 2015 15:52:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> <55CB2E24.3030604@cs.tcd.ie> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1E391@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CC78BF.20104@gmx.net> <20150813215134.GE22978@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 23:52:25 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: JUzdnccf1kd2jtiFO6Ll0USmaBY Message-ID: From: Robert Cragie To: sarikaya@ieee.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e013d203c6928f5051d3930f8 Archived-At: Cc: Toerless Eckert , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , Kathleen Moriarty , Sheng Jiang , Hannes Tschofenig , anima , Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [Anima] Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: robert.cragie@gridmerge.com List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 22:52:31 -0000 --089e013d203c6928f5051d3930f8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I have to say I sent an e-mail to anima-chairs on June 17 just after the last call for volunteers requesting participation in the bootstrapping design team and heard nothing. I even had to ping the anima-chairs e-mail to make sure it was working. I am glad to hear that participation is still welcome and will sign up to the e-mail list. Robert On 13 August 2015 at 23:26, Behcet Sarikaya wrote: > On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > How was 6lo work influenced/stalled by anything ANIMA did/does/ This is > > the first i heard. Please explain. > > > > Because people got the impression that the anima bootstrapping work > may also solve 6lo problem. > I had conversations with some people to that effect. > > Of course there may be other factors involved. > > Regards, > > Behcet > > Cheers > > Toerless > > > > On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 03:07:00PM -0500, Behcet Sarikaya wrote: > >> After reading draft-pritikin, I had similar views as Hannes expressed > below. > >> > >> In my view the solution should not claim constrained environments > >> applicability. > >> > >> On the other hand, in my view the solution should be developed in each > >> group separately, like aces, and 6lo. In fact 6lo already formed a > >> mailing list but that work stalled because of anima DT. > >> I don't think that it should go to the security area. > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Behcet > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 6:00 AM, Hannes Tschofenig > >> wrote: > >> > Hi Sheng, > >> > > >> > thanks for your mail. A short response below: > >> > > >> > On 08/13/2015 08:15 AM, Sheng Jiang wrote: > >> >> The ANIMA chairs have been very clearly to emphasized that the design > >> >> teams were open to for all interested ANIMA participants. The mail > >> >> list for the anima bootstrap design team are also open. It is > >> >> currently have 18 subscribed members. > >> > > >> > Before this discussion took place I have not been under the impression > >> > that this design team is open to everyone. > >> > > >> > If you want to make it open then you might want to consider the idea > >> > Kathleen described in her email. > >> > > >> > As you can imagine if the chairs announce the formation of a design > >> > team, ask for volunteers (and not do not accept everyone who > >> > volunteers!), and then put the conference bridge details on the Wiki > >> > that does not make me think that I can just dial in. > >> > > >> > Maybe I am the only one who got that impression and everyone else (who > >> > cared) dialed into the bridge. > >> > > >> >> We also encourage Max to > >> >> harmonize with other relevant WGs, such as netconf, 6bitsh, 6low. So, > >> >> in this case, we are not worrying the closeness issue. > >> > > >> > Encouraging is always good and an easy thing to do. > >> > > >> > The question remains about the desired outcome. Is the idea to have > one > >> > solution only or is it to educate interested parties that there are > >> > multiple solutions around? > >> > > >> > I am advocating the latter and argue that the market should shake it > >> > out. I have looked at many of the solutions and even though I am > >> > familiar with the security terminology and the generic concepts it > took > >> > me a while since every community (not only within the IETF but also in > >> > other SDOs) use their own language. I have to admit that there is even > >> > stuff that I don't fully understand. > >> > > >> > In ACE we ran a tutorial series to discuss existing work and we > managed > >> > to cover a few things but certainly not all of it. (I am still > planning > >> > to schedule more tutorials. Here is the list of things we had looked > at: > >> > http://www.tschofenig.priv.at/wp/?p=1012). > >> > > >> >> > >> >> ANIMA WG has a chartered work item for "bootstrapping a trust > >> >> infrastructure", but it is for autonomic network. > >> > > >> > The scope of the ANIMA group is pretty fuzzy so that it is quite > likely > >> > that in a few months that some folks in the group will claim that > their > >> > work has much wider applicability. Already now I read the *constrained > >> > environments* terminology in the abstract of the bootstrapping > document. > >> > It might not be too far fetched to assume that someone will show up > in, > >> > for example, ACE and notices this lack of alignment with ANIMA. As one > >> > of the co-chairs of ACE should I care? > >> > > >> > The same issue just recently happened with the 6tisch group. Initially > >> > their work was focused on a special radio technology (which only very > >> > few people care about). Time passed and now there is the believe that > it > >> > has applicability to other areas as well. > >> > > >> > IHMO I am not sure whether it was a good idea to do this type of > >> > security work in the ANIMA group. I believe the security area would > have > >> > been a much better place given the broader expertise. > >> > > >> > I believe that this arrangement has happened because of the use new > >> > terminology (particularly bootstrapping) and even within the IESG > there > >> > might have not been enough understanding that this work is about > >> > authentication, authorization and key distribution. Just guessing. > >> > > >> > Ciao > >> > Hannes > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Anima mailing list > >> > Anima@ietf.org > >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > >> > > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Anima mailing list > >> Anima@ietf.org > > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > --089e013d203c6928f5051d3930f8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have to say I sent an e-mail to anima-chairs on June 17 = just after the last call for volunteers requesting participation in the boo= tstrapping design team and heard nothing. I even had to ping the anima-chai= rs e-mail to make sure it was working. I am glad to hear that participation= is still welcome and will sign up to the e-mail list.

<= div>Robert

On 13 August 2015 at 23:26, Behcet Sarikaya &l= t;sarikaya2012@= gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Toerless Eckert <eckert@cisco.com> wrote:
> How was 6lo work influenced/stalled by anything ANIMA did/does/ This i= s
> the first i heard. Please explain.
>

Because people got the impression that the anima bootstrapping work<= br> may also solve 6lo problem.
I had conversations with some people to that effect.

Of course there may be other factors involved.

Regards,

Behcet
> Cheers
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Toerless
>
> On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 03:07:00PM -0500, Behcet Sarikaya wrote:
>> After reading draft-pritikin, I had similar views as Hannes expres= sed below.
>>
>> In my view the solution=C2=A0 should not claim constrained environ= ments
>> applicability.
>>
>> On the other hand, in my view the solution should be developed in = each
>> group separately, like aces, and 6lo. In fact 6lo already formed a=
>> mailing list but that work stalled because of anima DT.
>> I don't think that it should go to the security area.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Behcet
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 6:00 AM, Hannes Tschofenig
>> <hannes.tschofenig= @gmx.net> wrote:
>> > Hi Sheng,
>> >
>> > thanks for your mail. A short response below:
>> >
>> > On 08/13/2015 08:15 AM, Sheng Jiang wrote:
>> >> The ANIMA chairs have been very clearly to emphasized tha= t the design
>> >> teams were open to for all interested ANIMA participants.= The mail
>> >> list for the anima bootstrap design team are also open. I= t is
>> >> currently have 18 subscribed members.
>> >
>> > Before this discussion took place I have not been under the i= mpression
>> > that this design team is open to everyone.
>> >
>> > If you want to make it open then you might want to consider t= he idea
>> > Kathleen described in her email.
>> >
>> > As you can imagine if the chairs announce the formation of a = design
>> > team, ask for volunteers (and not do not accept everyone who<= br> >> > volunteers!), and then put the conference bridge details on t= he Wiki
>> > that does not make me think that I can just dial in.
>> >
>> > Maybe I am the only one who got that impression and everyone = else (who
>> > cared) dialed into the bridge.
>> >
>> >> We also encourage Max to
>> >> harmonize with other relevant WGs, such as netconf, 6bits= h, 6low. So,
>> >> in this case, we are not worrying the closeness issue. >> >
>> > Encouraging is always good and an easy thing to do.
>> >
>> > The question remains about the desired outcome. Is the idea t= o have one
>> > solution only or is it to educate interested parties that the= re are
>> > multiple solutions around?
>> >
>> > I am advocating the latter and argue that the market should s= hake it
>> > out. I have looked at many of the solutions and even though I= am
>> > familiar with the security terminology and the generic concep= ts it took
>> > me a while since every community (not only within the IETF bu= t also in
>> > other SDOs) use their own language. I have to admit that ther= e is even
>> > stuff that I don't fully understand.
>> >
>> > In ACE we ran a tutorial series to discuss existing work and = we managed
>> > to cover a few things but certainly not all of it. (I am stil= l planning
>> > to schedule more tutorials. Here is the list of things we had= looked at:
>> > http://www.tschofenig.priv.at/wp/?p=3D1012).
>> >
>> >>
>> >> ANIMA WG has a chartered work item for "bootstrappin= g a trust
>> >> infrastructure", but it is for autonomic network. >> >
>> > The scope of the ANIMA group is pretty fuzzy so that it is qu= ite likely
>> > that in a few months that some folks in the group will claim = that their
>> > work has much wider applicability. Already now I read the *co= nstrained
>> > environments* terminology in the abstract of the bootstrappin= g document.
>> > It might not be too far fetched to assume that someone will s= how up in,
>> > for example, ACE and notices this lack of alignment with ANIM= A. As one
>> > of the co-chairs of ACE should I care?
>> >
>> > The same issue just recently happened with the 6tisch group. = Initially
>> > their work was focused on a special radio technology (which o= nly very
>> > few people care about). Time passed and now there is the beli= eve that it
>> > has applicability to other areas as well.
>> >
>> > IHMO I am not sure whether it was a good idea to do this type= of
>> > security work in the ANIMA group. I believe the security area= would have
>> > been a much better place given the broader expertise.
>> >
>> > I believe that this arrangement has happened because of the u= se new
>> > terminology (particularly bootstrapping) and even within the = IESG there
>> > might have not been enough understanding that this work is ab= out
>> > authentication, authorization and key distribution. Just gues= sing.
>> >
>> > Ciao
>> > Hannes
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Anima mailing list
>> > Anima@ietf.org
>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ani= ma
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org

_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima

--089e013d203c6928f5051d3930f8-- From nobody Fri Aug 14 00:12:36 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A5461A00FE for ; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 00:12:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.61 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.61 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id No7mN8hNA9eX for ; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 00:12:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8642D1A00EA for ; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 00:12:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.131.134] ([80.92.114.40]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx002) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MQzIE-1ZEhtO3WbG-00UJCR; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 09:12:25 +0200 Message-ID: <55CD94D3.7060109@gmx.net> Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 09:12:19 +0200 From: Hannes Tschofenig User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Max Pritikin (pritikin)" References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> <55CB2E24.3030604@cs.tcd.ie> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1E391@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CC78BF.20104@gmx.net> <2F014D30-692D-4592-AE45-45AF34396763@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <2F014D30-692D-4592-AE45-45AF34396763@cisco.com> OpenPGP: id=4D776BC9 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="j7Wcxc6aOWfebJVbdj63F1Mr3oGDwK2jT" X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:GhTY2Q70zNWCBiilKeEEcA/DJjsRwZot1WJQGig66fiBtekCKCD 0/a8u43Jjef4HKoVov1QwFJVfnq38wZahUzjlz5e7JnwgV9XrSc9encfBiZCMQFKqSQDg4r TNuoFpOltcjE6FIweItSqgLzMzlyJN1oAvlTOIkwCaSCOvnT4ia1pZb9iACthMw+YAioLrZ eqfKzWYO5ynNi+qdCpsqQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:SzjywLrjSbA=:K8QAJin6QciIDLp6FNkGrG ecLtEbxPSisZ+GEDU9X0KuYc8Mrv80SpDYrv7S4OKkAHCWz1Ihs1gzkmEbe4YI9mFhuta6Ib/ ahUX3+Hy7Tm5qiiS0P+8mFgkTBok5ciweNEP63Dweem9pKQzNHjy3hZPdeorIyqghWkSPlVaG 5WG22MzGEvtWl4N8t5skUO/W6O7QAERVV9Eyo43SmMUTyIBZA/u6MxuHAAMmy855E/neyc5WM y1LM4NbaBLG1whZwDLFxOxky5Kxxwrf7W7mT6SdKJWkb1Gg2U5+8GIuI92QaKydal/0X+5dBH b1GJX1dJK/98dJIdZW8UaZyDHu6I0azxV60G1UzfQuTqgQBdnKu/+csfT8P0N+mKuFapyfhSb gsQkkmX/zfdjlp17h7d6i9wlgcsF9LSYlZdoMZWZcYR18wZtxCarKrqeqG1o6bwT6XoWTHt5E gQvMPwbrWWpy8waR+qgC6lCxKHGJDz8iAhrhakYgS77jzpu2tNPc+DNXw4YnSqGJIFCDuRC8/ BpcN6oL7ysxa99F3ty31hBUDsroO39g0Bm/u+GZ9ZWbYSSxisTwIRVwHuPy6GkzurUf5o1OCD m4P1QtP5+YEFnIBXVJSYN1UZJV4Q6J4yvZT5coVJ2f3GUHnghjRcNOTEKIp9uHnUuDi6t6bKG dwLA6hAD3biWuaFztMHWeUy60Fhdep7UEqwrdIgjx+NOR6+/yEVb3F8HpZiSSgabp+RWe7Bfk IYiTj5yE17m3c+GI Archived-At: Cc: "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , Kathleen Moriarty , Sheng Jiang , anima , Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [Anima] Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 07:12:35 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --j7Wcxc6aOWfebJVbdj63F1Mr3oGDwK2jT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Max, > Please join us. > Often, even of the people that signed up, only a few > folks show. Honest, I=92m not sure where your frustration is coming > from since in my experience what every working group wants is active > involvement! I am unhappy about 3 things: 1) My co-worker did not become a design team member even though he volunteered for it. He obviously didn't know that everyone can join the calls at any time. (I didn't know that either.) I am sure you don't understand that this can be frustrating since you had 4 persons from Cisco on the design team. 2) I am unhappy if design teams have a long lifetime. While the design team produced a draft that was presented to the working group it seems that the design team work continues. 3) I am unhappy about the unclear scope of the ANIMA working group and how it relates to other working groups. For some time I thought that ANIMA does not focus on IoT but then I get this impression again from reading your document abstract. If it also focuses on IoT then what is the difference between ANIMA and ACE? > Authentication, authorization and key distribution concepts are of > course well established. What has not been clearly addressed is a > clear framework for bootstrapping of the key infrastructures.=20 You use manufacturer provided keys. This is a form of manually provisioning information (even though it is done in a factory by a machin= e). Ciao Hannes --j7Wcxc6aOWfebJVbdj63F1Mr3oGDwK2jT Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJVzZTTAAoJEGhJURNOOiAtZUcH/itv0PRDi566sVMAIdTHKN99 BAJfWKfRqElsFFrT6+EjYhB50iN9dAL98aembLkLdaEPI1foZ///DZYygDmI4lHM B3kDDqVYE7/3XyQ0MfzPavv6B/2OZmzc5H+prnyCwzsAlHx2Dfk9CgR6Kx8nY5sk Q8qv1tfCJZGw/p3W+wSusdf7b16QtE7iHuSiYKG+h+fOW3n3ERIR3hEUzXyKDTcI JlikgfHri9kzPvWOSaSh/H93xn7T/MspSfloidB/Bw0A+VnjoxZ3GjysAxjE0HLT F1A0dNr8SpRz4YG1svG/KKlCTLiE4hLei51WzuF9l4VBFbJIFMQO4dGUekSsuh8= =l9db -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --j7Wcxc6aOWfebJVbdj63F1Mr3oGDwK2jT-- From nobody Fri Aug 14 03:45:18 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE0E11A0083 for ; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 03:45:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QqIv-QGjj5RN for ; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 03:45:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-3.cisco.com (alln-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.142.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5DDC41A0076 for ; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 03:45:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1961; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1439549115; x=1440758715; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=RgsGccda4O6gQQ6F1buKaY7iD8aLjkkLpCYsD6Cui1s=; b=UPX5YXTydRYe7eq7wYat12ZYlWEnRtv71YGGFLQf+QPiETeKNjqhKTuI JBxN+9eNaM/PCnnkiTbjJE0fvy1L5pbIWb8XqEinEH3Y7gkgocw9Ha1pu yp+8qYJe9qDV5MYNLtV0Pnseqy96uLU3ckuThaWpnNXncVxcS+UyIqvzg k=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0D6BACjxc1V/4gNJK1dgxuBQ74Lh24CgUg5EwEBAQEBAQGBCoQlAQQ6PxIBKhRCJgEEDg2IJtA2AQEBAQEBAQMBAQEBAQEBG5ArMYMfgRQFlRsBbqYhJoN9gjmBBAEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.15,677,1432598400"; d="scan'208";a="178305932" Received: from alln-core-3.cisco.com ([173.36.13.136]) by alln-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 14 Aug 2015 10:45:14 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-016.cisco.com (xch-rcd-016.cisco.com [173.37.102.26]) by alln-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t7EAjEA5030243 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 14 Aug 2015 10:45:14 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-016.cisco.com (173.37.102.26) by XCH-RCD-016.cisco.com (173.37.102.26) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 05:45:13 -0500 Received: from xhc-aln-x06.cisco.com (173.36.12.80) by xch-rcd-016.cisco.com (173.37.102.26) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 05:45:13 -0500 Received: from xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com ([169.254.4.116]) by xhc-aln-x06.cisco.com ([173.36.12.80]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 05:45:13 -0500 From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" To: Sheng Jiang Thread-Topic: How it all fits together Thread-Index: AdDWfCQNLI1GNyYyRPS9Ub3nIJyMQQ== Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 10:45:13 +0000 Message-ID: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304377E@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.55.238.133] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: anima Subject: [Anima] How it all fits together X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 10:45:16 -0000 Sheng,=20 In Prague you had two main comments about the reference model, 1) to reduce= what's not in the current charter and 2) to add a section on "how it all f= its together".=20 I've now mused for a while on how to best do this, and here are my thoughts= , for discussion, before I write it all up in detail.=20 The best way to represent how it all fits together seems to be to describe = how a node interacts with other nodes throughout its lifetime. So, my curre= nt thinking is to document the two cases:=20 a) the behaviour of a new element (high level, mainly pointing to the boots= trap draft for details) b) the behaviour of a domain node.=20 This way, we can document the flow, which really contains all of the archit= ectural components mentioned in the reference model. For example:=20 - node wakes up, has a domain certificate. It doesn't keep network state, t= herefore:=20 - it uses GRASP on the data plane to discover its neighbors - it authenticates the neighbors and builds an ACP tunnel to them.=20 - it installs its address in the ACP, and starts routing - to discover services in the autonomic domain, it uses GRASP inside the AC= P. - Intent is distributed inside the ACP, see draft...=20 - etc, etc, (including later on how ASAs interact).=20 This is what you had in mind, right?=20 If so, I think this partly exists already, in draft-behringer-anima-autonom= ic-control-plane, section 5. (not complete, so it needs stuff added such as= the first bullet, the ASAs, etc.) My proposal: The general parts of section 5 in draft-behringer-anima-autono= mic-control-plane should probably move into the reference model, and only A= CP specifics should remain in draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane= . So, essentially, move section 5 of the ACP draft into the reference model= , and refine that.=20 Does that meet expectations? Is it the right way forward?=20 Michael =20 From nobody Fri Aug 14 04:21:12 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DABEA1A00FF for ; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 04:21:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DSsuB4OcZrTr for ; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 04:21:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 553C21A00FA for ; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 04:21:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BWG13880; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 11:21:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml409-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.40) by lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.217) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 12:21:05 +0100 Received: from NKGEML512-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.33]) by nkgeml409-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.40]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 19:20:58 +0800 From: Sheng Jiang To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" Thread-Topic: How it all fits together Thread-Index: AdDWfCQNLI1GNyYyRPS9Ub3nIJyMQQABE4Hw Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 11:20:57 +0000 Message-ID: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1F0E8@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304377E@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304377E@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.99.197] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: anima Subject: Re: [Anima] How it all fits together X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 11:21:11 -0000 SGksIE1pY2hhZWwsDQoNClRoYW5rcyBmb3IgY29uc2lkZXJpbmcgbXkgY29tbWVudHMgYW5kIHJl c3BvbnNlLiBQbGVhc2Ugc2VlIG15IHJlcGxpZXMgaW4gbGluZXMuDQoNCj4tLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFs IE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KPkZyb206IE1pY2hhZWwgQmVocmluZ2VyIChtYmVocmluZykgW21haWx0 bzptYmVocmluZ0BjaXNjby5jb21dDQo+DQo+U2hlbmcsDQo+DQo+SW4gUHJhZ3VlIHlvdSBoYWQg dHdvIG1haW4gY29tbWVudHMgYWJvdXQgdGhlIHJlZmVyZW5jZSBtb2RlbCwgMSkgdG8NCj5yZWR1 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Fri, 14 Aug 2015 06:30:20 -0500 Received: from xhc-aln-x08.cisco.com (173.36.12.82) by xch-rcd-016.cisco.com (173.37.102.26) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 06:30:20 -0500 Received: from xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com ([169.254.4.116]) by xhc-aln-x08.cisco.com ([173.36.12.82]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 06:30:20 -0500 From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" To: Sheng Jiang Thread-Topic: How it all fits together Thread-Index: AdDWfCQNLI1GNyYyRPS9Ub3nIJyMQQABE4HwAADbhaA= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 11:30:20 +0000 Message-ID: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304386D@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> References: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304377E@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1F0E8@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1F0E8@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.55.238.133] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: anima Subject: Re: [Anima] How it all fits together X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 11:30:25 -0000 SW5saW5lLi4uIA0KDQpbLi4uXQ0KPiA+VGhpcyBpcyB3aGF0IHlvdSBoYWQgaW4gbWluZCwgcmln aHQ/DQo+IA0KPiBUaGF0J3Mgd2hhdCBJIHN1Z2dlc3RlZC4NCg0KQWNrIC0gdGhhbmtzLg0KIA0K Wy4uLl0NCj4gPk15IHByb3Bvc2FsOiBUaGUgZ2VuZXJhbCBwYXJ0cyBvZiBzZWN0aW9uIDUgaW4N Cj4gPmRyYWZ0LWJlaHJpbmdlci1hbmltYS1hdXRvbm9taWMtY29udHJvbC1wbGFuZSBzaG91bGQg cHJvYmFibHkgbW92ZQ0KPiBpbnRvDQo+ID50aGUgcmVmZXJlbmNlIG1vZGVsLCBhbmQgb25seSBB Q1Agc3BlY2lmaWNzIHNob3VsZCByZW1haW4gaW4NCj4gPmRyYWZ0LWJlaHJpbmdlci1hbmltYS1h dXRvbm9taWMtY29udHJvbC1wbGFuZS4gU28sIGVzc2VudGlhbGx5LCBtb3ZlDQo+ID5zZWN0aW9u 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dGhlci4NCg0KUmlnaHQuIA0KDQo+IEJ5IHRoZSB3YXksIGl0IG1heSBub3QgYmUgYSBnb29kIGlk ZWEgdG8gc3VibWl0IGEgMDAgdmVyc2lvbiB3aXRoIGFueSBtYWpvcg0KPiBjaGFuZ2VzLiBJdCB3 b3VsZCBiZSBiZXR0ZXIgaWYgeW91IGNvdWxkIHN1Ym1pdCBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLWFuaW1hLWF1dG9u b21pYy0NCj4gY29udHJvbC1wbGFuZS0wMCBhcyBpdCBpcyBpbiAtMDMsIHRoZW4gbWFrZSBtb2Rp ZmljYXRpb25zIGluIC0wMSB2ZXJzaW9uIGFuZA0KPiByZXByZXNlbnQgdGhlbSB0byB0aGUgV0cu DQoNCk9LLCB0aGVuIEkgc3RhcnQgYnkgcmUtc3VibWl0dGluZyB0aGUgY3VycmVudCBkcmFmdCAo dGhlcmUgd2VyZSBzb21lIG1pbm9yIGVkaXRzIG9ubHkgc28gZmFyKSB3aXRoIHRoZSBuZXcgbmFt ZSBmaXJzdC4gTm8gcHJvYmxlbS4gDQoNCk1pY2hhZWwNCg0KDQo= From nobody Fri Aug 14 05:24:45 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D8EA1ACE82 for ; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 05:24:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nevfP0ferqkL for ; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 05:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.86.73]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0BD811ACE81 for ; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 05:24:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2889; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1439555083; x=1440764683; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=hUPiOznMY2MUgb8PL1OsvASODL9FT+AYhbKEEA6InlE=; b=m3OphAgB6xyIhSEbaC6oOZedzXifo48x4egb5zu6SrM+TZdLH4pIrOpc VE3QsDpf13TjyoLlxTAzYHd9wrLMxMoVSYfI3yyQlm9mauNLsi3Hyu8aV rsjvZychECm9IrMd5FXfoFmIBImqM0kFyrOulXwvg9h+k/GYcU/kzYInz U=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.15,677,1432598400"; d="scan'208";a="24045975" Received: from alln-core-11.cisco.com ([173.36.13.133]) by rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 14 Aug 2015 12:24:42 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by alln-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t7ECOgVX016779 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 14 Aug 2015 12:24:42 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t7ECOf8J030367; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 05:24:41 -0700 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id t7ECOeTF030366; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 05:24:40 -0700 Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 05:24:40 -0700 From: "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" To: Hannes Tschofenig Message-ID: <20150814122440.GA3335@cisco.com> References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> <55CB2E24.3030604@cs.tcd.ie> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1E391@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CC78BF.20104@gmx.net> <2F014D30-692D-4592-AE45-45AF34396763@cisco.com> <55CD94D3.7060109@gmx.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <55CD94D3.7060109@gmx.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , "Max Pritikin \(pritikin\)" , Kathleen Moriarty , Sheng Jiang , anima , Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [Anima] Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 12:24:44 -0000 On Fri, Aug 14, 2015 at 09:12:19AM +0200, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > I am unhappy about 3 things: > > 1) My co-worker did not become a design team member even though he > volunteered for it. He obviously didn't know that everyone can join the > calls at any time. (I didn't know that either.) This is what i sent after the call for volunteers had expired, we had taken the list of volunteers, asked for the design team mailing list, created the wiki, described in the wiki its open, etc. pp. I admit the message was terse, but i was trying to reduce annoying at least when writing as a WG chair folks with too long emails which i am otherwise often prone to produce. I guess in this case that was a mistake. >From eckert@cisco.com Thu Jun 18 19:33:35 2015 Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 19:33:35 -0700 From: Toerless Eckert To: anima@ietf.org Subject: anima-bootstrap created Message-ID: <20150619023335.GP27147@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Status: RO Content-Length: 247 Lines: 7 Mailing list for anima-bootstrap has been created. Team members are subscribed. If you wish to follow the work please feel free to subscribe. all pointers on the wiki: https://tools.ietf.org/wg/anima/trac/wiki/Bootstrap Thanks Sheng & Toerless From nobody Fri Aug 14 06:14:13 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA3821A1AD0 for ; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 06:14:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3CF3qqtg_f2X for ; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 06:14:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.86.73]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7AF9C1A1A77 for ; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 06:14:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3684; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1439558050; x=1440767650; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=vv+8TODya85wmJi42SuW6vDRjVSV3bF+n/Z8ru+nleU=; b=X9kailZUne9BfcLCGQyeYL4G01YdSvckMSC4hxkTaG7hfFZwsdahOtPU z85IVkaUBSZfOLyQiI2qhq3Z4eRPZmovz7J51+EYEahEd16SNAm4UUaYN COf87Q1uzwigDvssIDnzsvEIeBuJV4DARBg7Yz1aki9Xs9xZkf9Ro7fyL E=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.15,677,1432598400"; d="scan'208";a="24059149" Received: from alln-core-10.cisco.com ([173.36.13.132]) by rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 14 Aug 2015 13:14:10 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by alln-core-10.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t7EDE9Qa004581 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 14 Aug 2015 13:14:09 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t7EDE8gl003151; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 06:14:08 -0700 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id t7EDE7bJ003149; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 06:14:07 -0700 Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 06:14:07 -0700 From: "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" To: Hannes Tschofenig Message-ID: <20150814131407.GB3335@cisco.com> References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> <55CB2E24.3030604@cs.tcd.ie> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1E391@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CC78BF.20104@gmx.net> <2F014D30-692D-4592-AE45-45AF34396763@cisco.com> <55CD94D3.7060109@gmx.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <55CD94D3.7060109@gmx.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , "Max Pritikin \(pritikin\)" , Kathleen Moriarty , Sheng Jiang , anima , Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [Anima] Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 13:14:12 -0000 Wrt to the other questions: On Fri, Aug 14, 2015 at 09:12:19AM +0200, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > I am unhappy about 3 things: > > 1) My co-worker did not become a design team member even though he > volunteered for it. I am not aware that we rejected for anima-bootstrap anyone who volunteered during the announced time window, can you remind me of the name so i go back and check email archive to see what happened ? > I am sure you don't understand that this can be frustrating since you > had 4 persons from Cisco on the design team. The design team is as frustrated about this as you are. Please join. > 2) I am unhappy if design teams have a long lifetime. While the design > team produced a draft that was presented to the working group it seems > that the design team work continues. I hope i can claim to still be new at the job as WG chair, but it seems the word design team is associated with negatives that IMHO the way we created and operate the design teams does not apply. The design teams are just s meant to make it easier for participant to concentrate on a well specified sub-part of the WG charter work they're interested to participate in, with meetings, mailing list, wiki and a set of drafts being worked on. And it only takes one more subscribe to use it. > 3) I am unhappy about the unclear scope of the ANIMA working group and > how it relates to other working groups. It would be nice if you could be more specific: If its technical, please have the discussion here on the groups list. If it's more about charter text interpretation, interpretation of responsibilities or other bureaucracy issues, i'd suggest to start discussing this between WG chairs and ADs (as needed) and then we can report back to the WGs (unless WG members are happy to have the lists technical to bureaucracy SNR to be low...). > For some time I thought that ANIMA does not focus on IoT but then I get > this impression again from reading your document abstract. If it also > focuses on IoT then what is the difference between ANIMA and ACE? How do you define IoT and "constrained environments" ? Are the concerns for battery life time in an octo-core 2Ghz smartphone in scope for ACE ? Is the ethernet in a train IoT ? Aka: lets just talk ANIMA vs. ACE: >From just quick reading ACE charter, it seems to be about AAK in bitrate/memory/cpu constrained devices by adding it to existing/evolving lot bitrate/memory/cpu protocols. ANIMA has components like network wide autonomic connectivity, bootstrap and signaling as a framework for OAM and autonomic service agents in scope. The type of networks we target are well-managed, which includes SP, Enterprise, and IMHO networks that would like to call themselves IoT but also are well-managed (aka: have an operating entity paid for the job). ANIMA definitely needs to further refine the set of constraints to devices and neetwork connectivity especially at the lower end into which we think we can reuse the anima technologies without creating so much additional workt hat we'd rather like split off solutions for those spaces. > > Authentication, authorization and key distribution concepts are of > > course well established. What has not been clearly addressed is a > > clear framework for bootstrapping of the key infrastructures. > > You use manufacturer provided keys. This is a form of manually > provisioning information (even though it is done in a factory by a machine). I don't agree with that classification. Maybe you can explain how you think manufacturer provided keys must imply "manual" provisioning steps. Cheers Toerles From nobody Fri Aug 14 07:05:25 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21F871B29D7 for ; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 07:05:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Mbw2rx0eZB7c for ; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 07:05:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-x241.google.com (mail-lb0-x241.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::241]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BC20B1B29B6 for ; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 07:05:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lbcue2 with SMTP id ue2so3952423lbc.0 for ; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 07:05:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=3JQAYkJE2Ldtg35oRCVg2kgjpyzpFFRIgZgykwnjGr8=; b=UVARAdmdxk1Py1wW0BbI0MpYJk7eWk6adFewx4BVOcB3JGYAWvDoVPpcr3LbxZabc4 YADds+irnwNmuEEwM4i7/YvaNBKnl/8hi1fsW5s+sS/Nos9707GZM6Rbntjh1lR2O/Bv yFfkG0zGgLRvzOrLDL0F/Yru+6pqK8NdEqFNAWrOWoufyJWZqNEalKQf8Wf0IPqUh+tH C+6QqGxXr0IXpHyQlRGjYANKlWqSP13X9fWUFLtxNh5xGnAfKg9NifRzHnmsuq7vtLoT 0xlw1HECGvR4IP7/tgu3k3BqlKxNARGASen3ogbiGnB4hT6VKYaYo/HtUirEvbkXhLJ1 XDIg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.206.41 with SMTP id ll9mr44262857lac.103.1439561115281; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 07:05:15 -0700 (PDT) Sender: robert.cragie@gmail.com Received: by 10.25.83.65 with HTTP; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 07:05:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20150814131407.GB3335@cisco.com> References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> <55CB2E24.3030604@cs.tcd.ie> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1E391@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CC78BF.20104@gmx.net> <2F014D30-692D-4592-AE45-45AF34396763@cisco.com> <55CD94D3.7060109@gmx.net> <20150814131407.GB3335@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 15:05:15 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: zcoyKzOUZ5R1D2UNN2rDMVAf2f0 Message-ID: From: Robert Cragie To: "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1133af6ae8aff9051d45f0c5 Archived-At: Cc: Stephen Farrell , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , "Max Pritikin \(pritikin\)" , Kathleen Moriarty , Hannes Tschofenig , anima , Sheng Jiang Subject: Re: [Anima] Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: robert.cragie@gridmerge.com List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 14:05:19 -0000 --001a1133af6ae8aff9051d45f0c5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi Toerless, In response to the specific request for more information. I received an e-mail through anima mailing list from anima chairs on Jun 17: ''' Hi folks, If you had responded to our poll for the anima bootstrap team, you should have gotten an invite email now. If not, then please send us an email because i must have overlooked an email Thanks! Sheng & Toerless ''' I responded 8 hours later (put it down to timezone difference) to anima-chairs@ietf.org: ''' Apologies for not replying sooner. I am interested in participating in the bootstrap design team. ''' I heard nothing more. Perhaps I should have followed up but I was patient for a while then it most likely went off my radar. So, not an outright rejection as such, but could be taken as a tacit rejection :-) Furthermore, I put in a polite request to consider changing the agenda for IETF 93 to move the bootstrapping conversation to Thursday session as I didn't think I would be in Prague in time for the first anima session on Monday, where bootstrapping was being discussed. Again I heard nothing which prompted me to ping anima-chairs@ietf.org to make sure my e-mail were getting through. I subsequently received this refusal: ''' Hi, Robert, The WG would like to have most important work items, including bootstrap, discussed on Monday morning session, in which more attendances are expected with good spirits. It would also allow the authors/design teams to work based on the feedback/discussion. The bootstrap design team would keep working during the IETF work. You can catch up and work together with them. They are expected to make a progress update on Thursday afternoon session. Best regards, Sheng ''' I did get there in time for half of Monday's session but looks like I still missed the bootstrapping conversation. I did have a brief chat with Max who, to be fair, encouraged me to get more involved however I was not made aware of any design team side meetings at IETF 93 and it appears nothing was announced on anima-bootstrap list either. I am not complaining but I have to agree with Hannes that the design team came across as exclusive at the time. Anyway, I am happy to review the latest draft and will provide feedback. Robert On 14 August 2015 at 14:14, Toerless Eckert (eckert) wrote: > Wrt to the other questions: > > On Fri, Aug 14, 2015 at 09:12:19AM +0200, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > > I am unhappy about 3 things: > > > > 1) My co-worker did not become a design team member even though he > > volunteered for it. > > I am not aware that we rejected for anima-bootstrap anyone who > volunteered during the announced time window, can you remind me of the > name so i go back and check email archive to see what happened ? > --001a1133af6ae8aff9051d45f0c5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Toerless,

In response to the specifi= c request for more information. I received an e-mail through anima mailing = list from anima chairs on Jun 17:

''&= #39;
Hi folks,

If you had respond= ed to our poll for the anima bootstrap team,
you should = have gotten an invite email now. If not, then please
sen= d us an email because i must have overlooked an email

Thanks!
=C2=A0 = Sheng & Toerless
'''

I responded 8 hours later (put it down to timezone difference) to=C2= =A0anima-chairs@= ietf.org:

'&#= 39;'
Apol= ogies for not replying sooner. I am interested in participating in the boot= strap design team.
<= /span>
''= 9;

I heard nothing more. Perhaps I should have followed up but I was = patient for a while then it most likely went off my radar. So, not an outri= ght rejection as such, but could be taken as a tacit rejection :-)

Furthermore, I put in a polit= e request to consider changing the agenda for IETF 93 to move the bootstrap= ping conversation to Thursday session as I didn't think I would be in P= rague in time for the first anima session on Monday, where bootstrapping wa= s being discussed. Again I heard nothing which prompted me to ping=C2=A0anima-chairs@ietf.o= rg=C2=A0to make sure my e-mail were getting through. I subsequently rec= eived this refusal:

'''
Hi, Robert,

The WG would like to have most important work items, including bootstr= ap, discussed on Monday morning session, in which more attendances are expe= cted with good spirits. It would also allow the authors/design teams to wor= k based on the feedback/discussion. The bootstrap design team would keep wo= rking during the IETF work. You can catch up and work together with them. T= hey are expected to make a progress update on Thursday afternoon session.

Best regards,<= /span>

Sheng<= span style=3D"font-size:12.8000001907349px">
'''

I did get there in time for half of Monday&#= 39;s session but looks like I still missed the bootstrapping conversation.= =C2=A0I did have a brie= f chat with Max who, to be fair, encouraged me to get more involved however= I was not made aware of any design team side meetings at IETF 93 and it ap= pears nothing was announced on anima-bootstrap list either.

I am not complaining but I have to agree with Hannes= that the design team came across as exclusive at the time. Anyway, I am ha= ppy to review the latest draft and will provide feedback.
Robert

On 14 August 2015 at 14:14, Toerless Eckert (eckert) <eckert@cisco.com= > wrote:
Wrt to the other q= uestions:

On Fri, Aug 14, 2015 at 09:12:19AM +0200, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> I am unhappy about 3 things:
>
> 1) My co-worker did not become a design team member even though he
> volunteered for it.

I am not aware that we rejected for anima-bootstrap anyone who
volunteered during the announced time window, can you remind me of the
name so i go back and check email archive to see what happened ?

<snip>
--001a1133af6ae8aff9051d45f0c5-- From nobody Fri Aug 14 07:17:16 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CD611A86F2 for ; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 07:17:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LJXZVTyMMsEA for ; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 07:17:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-4.cisco.com (alln-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.142.91]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E619B1A7001 for ; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 07:17:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3960; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1439561834; x=1440771434; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=eFaClgpdM+waOxJMnikkl4iNoen08w2468KVsmilxck=; b=dnWjkVite2MtastyK7xsso4A5mto140u0naGEi4NRKlUV2D6cCApwk1y WYCsmPehwDW2MqEj5Cv+FhCHDNg90SFlDmHDZMTCJpTrbtDALq8SUwMKK tBzRAjH+0PyhTT12lb+a8a2sbLY9vumRZno8DcnJ/vZWudIwCDG8EkBji M=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.15,678,1432598400"; d="scan'208";a="178647129" Received: from rcdn-core-12.cisco.com ([173.37.93.148]) by alln-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 14 Aug 2015 14:17:13 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by rcdn-core-12.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t7EEHCdS028190 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 14 Aug 2015 14:17:13 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t7EEHCu3006979; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 07:17:12 -0700 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id t7EEHBbN006978; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 07:17:11 -0700 Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 07:17:11 -0700 From: "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" To: Robert Cragie Message-ID: <20150814141711.GC3335@cisco.com> References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> <55CB2E24.3030604@cs.tcd.ie> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1E391@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CC78BF.20104@gmx.net> <2F014D30-692D-4592-AE45-45AF34396763@cisco.com> <55CD94D3.7060109@gmx.net> <20150814131407.GB3335@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: Stephen Farrell , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , "Max Pritikin \(pritikin\)" , Kathleen Moriarty , Hannes Tschofenig , anima , Sheng Jiang Subject: Re: [Anima] Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 14:17:15 -0000 Thanks Robert, So, on the first mail thread i am not sure if i had simply already sent the email i'd pasted in before saying folks can now simply subscribe because the mailing list was created and therefore we provided no further reply or if we did overlook to reply. To avoid further miscommunication, i'd suggest to loud and clearly complain about bad WG chairing on the list once they don't answer to private emails in what you perceive to be timely. On the second mail i do stand to the reply we formulated to you. We felt that if we had a slot on monday that would help continuing the work through the week into thursday and that turned out to be true. If you would have said you might have made it to the second half of monday, i'd changed the agenda order for monday to make bootstrap late. Cheers Toerless On Fri, Aug 14, 2015 at 03:05:15PM +0100, Robert Cragie wrote: > Hi Toerless, > > In response to the specific request for more information. I received an > e-mail through anima mailing list from anima chairs on Jun 17: > > ''' > Hi folks, > > If you had responded to our poll for the anima bootstrap team, > you should have gotten an invite email now. If not, then please > send us an email because i must have overlooked an email > > Thanks! > Sheng & Toerless > ''' > > I responded 8 hours later (put it down to timezone difference) to > anima-chairs@ietf.org: > > ''' > Apologies for not replying sooner. I am interested in participating in the > bootstrap design team. > ''' > > I heard nothing more. Perhaps I should have followed up but I was patient > for a while then it most likely went off my radar. So, not an outright > rejection as such, but could be taken as a tacit rejection :-) > > Furthermore, I put in a polite request to consider changing the agenda for > IETF 93 to move the bootstrapping conversation to Thursday session as I > didn't think I would be in Prague in time for the first anima session on > Monday, where bootstrapping was being discussed. Again I heard nothing > which prompted me to ping anima-chairs@ietf.org to make sure my e-mail were > getting through. I subsequently received this refusal: > > ''' > Hi, Robert, > > The WG would like to have most important work items, including bootstrap, > discussed on Monday morning session, in which more attendances are expected > with good spirits. It would also allow the authors/design teams to work > based on the feedback/discussion. The bootstrap design team would keep > working during the IETF work. You can catch up and work together with them. > They are expected to make a progress update on Thursday afternoon session. > > Best regards, > > Sheng > ''' > > I did get there in time for half of Monday's session but looks like I still > missed the bootstrapping conversation. I did have a brief chat with Max > who, to be fair, encouraged me to get more involved however I was not made > aware of any design team side meetings at IETF 93 and it appears nothing > was announced on anima-bootstrap list either. > > I am not complaining but I have to agree with Hannes that the design team > came across as exclusive at the time. Anyway, I am happy to review the > latest draft and will provide feedback. > > Robert > > On 14 August 2015 at 14:14, Toerless Eckert (eckert) > wrote: > > > Wrt to the other questions: > > > > On Fri, Aug 14, 2015 at 09:12:19AM +0200, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > > > I am unhappy about 3 things: > > > > > > 1) My co-worker did not become a design team member even though he > > > volunteered for it. > > > > I am not aware that we rejected for anima-bootstrap anyone who > > volunteered during the announced time window, can you remind me of the > > name so i go back and check email archive to see what happened ? > > > > -- --- Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com From nobody Fri Aug 14 08:07:27 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B3ED1A8AE4 for ; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 08:07:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q6PWOVbWja7v for ; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 08:07:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3DBD31A90E9 for ; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 08:07:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A470200A1; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 11:25:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 0C13663B10; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 11:07:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E44D863AE8; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 11:07:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Hannes Tschofenig In-Reply-To: <55CD94D3.7060109@gmx.net> References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> <55CB2E24.3030604@cs.tcd.ie> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1E391@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CC78BF.20104@gmx.net> <2F014D30-692D-4592-AE45-45AF34396763@cisco.com> <55CD94D3.7060109@gmx.net> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 24.4.2 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Archived-At: Cc: "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , "Max Pritikin \(pritikin\)" , Kathleen Moriarty , Stephen Farrell , anima , Sheng Jiang Subject: Re: [Anima] Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 15:07:25 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > For some time I thought that ANIMA does not focus on IoT but then I get > this impression again from reading your document abstract. If it also > focuses on IoT then what is the difference between ANIMA and ACE? All of the work of ANIMA focuses on the part of that we agreed would be out of scope for ACE!!!! I felt we had to solve it (the bootstrap problem) in the non-constrained case first, and I felt that some other group (I didn't know ANIMA would happen) would get there while ACE could focus on the core protocol. You speak of IoT as if it was one thing, and yet really, it's too imprecise to be anything. ACE is focused on *constrained* devices. ANIMA is not chartered specifically to work on constrained devices, yet it hasn't been made out of scope. {personally, I have been left off many design teams} -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBVc4EJICLcPvd0N1lAQLMDgf+Kce5fd8/ZugFE+qWzzASzkCiLeV6jfNW ZqiGa2K8JqQPSCIZU7a9QpE3WCeIK4FE3OmYyCMpYUEdVZyEnBFaaRdewB3h8syM jMj1ukooItsswqQ4epPXwQm0usLCQvLRP49EdLmTFALFqc/zg321hzMVVaIDNZoH 5IcpOBRF7B+A4hOEkQc60Pc/iglMyVCOjT3wqXg1ab9/hF9w0F2VUwy/BahadRKx OBCm3+F/Z7TXxK8XPhzkBHPxqm77/PUZqLBftrKw4EzrTmAJtw8GRdXyPw36M4Bw 5fG1iGR82GJ9f6xTyJoabmJ1QmnfeWDXBlmu9ov0x0sfYNYesWnfbw== =/C06 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Aug 14 08:25:13 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A12E41A924C for ; 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Fri, 14 Aug 2015 10:25:08 -0500 Received: from xhc-aln-x12.cisco.com (173.36.12.86) by xch-aln-015.cisco.com (173.36.7.25) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 10:25:08 -0500 Received: from xmb-rcd-x03.cisco.com ([169.254.7.75]) by xhc-aln-x12.cisco.com ([173.36.12.86]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 10:25:06 -0500 From: "Max Pritikin (pritikin)" To: Hannes Tschofenig Thread-Topic: [Anima] Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document Thread-Index: AQHQ1OFWwc4tf+OXR0OmKm5ezlREVJ4IiP0AgAADgICAAAHsAIABOpUAgABPiICAAFQHAIAA/p+AgACJpQA= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 15:25:05 +0000 Message-ID: <3951A5EB-7834-4048-BC50-875C32DDBF13@cisco.com> References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> <55CB2E24.3030604@cs.tcd.ie> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1E391@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CC78BF.20104@gmx.net> <2F014D30-692D-4592-AE45-45AF34396763@cisco.com> <55CD94D3.7060109@gmx.net> In-Reply-To: <55CD94D3.7060109@gmx.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [173.36.7.14] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: <6FEF4DF32B5FC741A0E0BB595819024B@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , Kathleen Moriarty , Sheng Jiang , anima , Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [Anima] Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 15:25:11 -0000 Hannes,=20 On Aug 14, 2015, at 1:12 AM, Hannes Tschofenig = wrote: > Hi Max, >=20 >> Please join us. >> Often, even of the people that signed up, only a few >> folks show. Honest, I=92m not sure where your frustration is coming >> from since in my experience what every working group wants is active >> involvement! >=20 > I am unhappy about 3 things: >=20 > 1) My co-worker did not become a design team member even though he > volunteered for it. He obviously didn't know that everyone can join the > calls at any time. (I didn't know that either.) re: > I am raising this now because Max approached me at the last IETF meeting > and was a big advocate of inclusiveness and the need to harmonize > activities in the area of bootstrapping (which I call key distribution) > in the IETF. Today, this does not work since even participating in many > of the design teams is not possible. I=92m glad I approached you. It sounds like you=92ve been frustrated by som= ething for a while. > I am sure you don't understand that this can be frustrating since you > had 4 persons from Cisco on the design team. Clearly we have an interest. But in many calls it=92s just been Michael Ric= hardson and myself.=20 > 2) I am unhappy if design teams have a long lifetime. While the design > team produced a draft that was presented to the working group it seems > that the design team work continues. >=20 > 3) I am unhappy about the unclear scope of the ANIMA working group and > how it relates to other working groups. >=20 > For some time I thought that ANIMA does not focus on IoT but then I get > this impression again from reading your document abstract. If it also > focuses on IoT then what is the difference between ANIMA and ACE? As noted earlier on this thread the use of the term =93constrained network= =94 was a reference to the network limitations not ACE. I=92ve taken an act= ion to clarify that terminology overlap. I look forward to hearing your com= ments on the text after the abstract. >> Authentication, authorization and key distribution concepts are of >> course well established. What has not been clearly addressed is a >> clear framework for bootstrapping of the key infrastructures.=20 >=20 > You use manufacturer provided keys. This is a form of manually > provisioning information (even though it is done in a factory by a machin= e). As an author of the IEEE 802.1AR document I clearly agree that the Initial = Device IDentity (IDevID) is an important aspect of bootstrapping. The draft= also goes into how the =91imprint=92 on the local network is secured. This= is a harder problem to solve; and I reject =93Trust On First Use=94 (TOFU)= as it leaves a large security vulnerability unmitigated.=20 I look forward to your input into the solutions for that problem,=20 - max=20 =20 >=20 > Ciao > Hannes >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima From nobody Fri Aug 14 09:30:14 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9F7D1A8830 for ; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 09:30:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hDQGCqlx-H83 for ; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 09:30:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-la0-x241.google.com (mail-la0-x241.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c03::241]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 64AB21A883D for ; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 09:30:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by labd1 with SMTP id d1so4379706lab.3 for ; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 09:30:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=SDwTO/WYfOFU6v9IBYeRzHo8+6SyDoMofcXaKiL1jCQ=; b=V3+YNCdR15adrqTLWaMjqR7/6kujvb0UY223IMMV+OplkpxAgax5AdVw1Ymn2xwRWj kbbXXMhK5v87gj7AeJT6pGlLcT7loLRO4vE1FXsoBCwypJeS3YQ9lqfj4VdZ1pSfniLm 8Du8Q8yv2ohc/8p0M0jOhEkqxF3HQt/U/uh+idJHY0qgBfzdql8Cp71N/0CAXhinvJHo 7acpkBPYMJ9s3qC7saAMQZdLgOdFfJUK63bPJm9yP+sXOmiPGzpT3ix/Q8WY6/1QYOPG 8MchSq0wRlLNlNF0+6j8Z6hPSre28OcaoNIehkZdmkilseyY/FB5+26YqS9kxBUZM13G yDIg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.25.69 with SMTP id a5mr44068662lbg.16.1439569808891; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 09:30:08 -0700 (PDT) Sender: robert.cragie@gmail.com Received: by 10.25.83.65 with HTTP; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 09:30:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20150814141711.GC3335@cisco.com> References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> <55CB2E24.3030604@cs.tcd.ie> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1E391@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CC78BF.20104@gmx.net> <2F014D30-692D-4592-AE45-45AF34396763@cisco.com> <55CD94D3.7060109@gmx.net> <20150814131407.GB3335@cisco.com> <20150814141711.GC3335@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 17:30:08 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: GBHL3jyTZUgtO5CrTFGopzBW1Sg Message-ID: From: Robert Cragie To: "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c3f5be16a50d051d47f746 Archived-At: Cc: Stephen Farrell , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , "Max Pritikin \(pritikin\)" , Kathleen Moriarty , Hannes Tschofenig , anima , Sheng Jiang Subject: Re: [Anima] Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: robert.cragie@gridmerge.com List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 16:30:12 -0000 --001a11c3f5be16a50d051d47f746 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Fair enough - I was just being transparent about communication. I actually arrived earlier than I thought I would on Monday; I assumed based on my travel schedule that I would miss all of Monday's session. Robert On 14 August 2015 at 15:17, Toerless Eckert (eckert) wrote: > Thanks Robert, > > So, on the first mail thread i am not sure if i had simply already > sent the email i'd pasted in before saying folks can now simply subscribe > because the mailing list was created and therefore we provided no further > reply or if we did overlook to reply. > > To avoid further miscommunication, i'd suggest to loud and clearly complain > about bad WG chairing on the list once they don't answer to private emails > in what you perceive to be timely. > > On the second mail i do stand to the reply we formulated to you. > We felt that if we had a slot on monday that would help continuing the work > through the week into thursday and that turned out to be true. > If you would have said you might have made it to the second half of monday, > i'd changed the agenda order for monday to make bootstrap late. > > Cheers > Toerless > > On Fri, Aug 14, 2015 at 03:05:15PM +0100, Robert Cragie wrote: > > Hi Toerless, > > > > In response to the specific request for more information. I received an > > e-mail through anima mailing list from anima chairs on Jun 17: > > > > ''' > > Hi folks, > > > > If you had responded to our poll for the anima bootstrap team, > > you should have gotten an invite email now. If not, then please > > send us an email because i must have overlooked an email > > > > Thanks! > > Sheng & Toerless > > ''' > > > > I responded 8 hours later (put it down to timezone difference) to > > anima-chairs@ietf.org: > > > > ''' > > Apologies for not replying sooner. I am interested in participating in > the > > bootstrap design team. > > ''' > > > > I heard nothing more. Perhaps I should have followed up but I was patient > > for a while then it most likely went off my radar. So, not an outright > > rejection as such, but could be taken as a tacit rejection :-) > > > > Furthermore, I put in a polite request to consider changing the agenda > for > > IETF 93 to move the bootstrapping conversation to Thursday session as I > > didn't think I would be in Prague in time for the first anima session on > > Monday, where bootstrapping was being discussed. Again I heard nothing > > which prompted me to ping anima-chairs@ietf.org to make sure my e-mail > were > > getting through. I subsequently received this refusal: > > > > ''' > > Hi, Robert, > > > > The WG would like to have most important work items, including bootstrap, > > discussed on Monday morning session, in which more attendances are > expected > > with good spirits. It would also allow the authors/design teams to work > > based on the feedback/discussion. The bootstrap design team would keep > > working during the IETF work. You can catch up and work together with > them. > > They are expected to make a progress update on Thursday afternoon > session. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Sheng > > ''' > > > > I did get there in time for half of Monday's session but looks like I > still > > missed the bootstrapping conversation. I did have a brief chat with Max > > who, to be fair, encouraged me to get more involved however I was not > made > > aware of any design team side meetings at IETF 93 and it appears nothing > > was announced on anima-bootstrap list either. > > > > I am not complaining but I have to agree with Hannes that the design team > > came across as exclusive at the time. Anyway, I am happy to review the > > latest draft and will provide feedback. > > > > Robert > > > > On 14 August 2015 at 14:14, Toerless Eckert (eckert) > > wrote: > > > > > Wrt to the other questions: > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 14, 2015 at 09:12:19AM +0200, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > > > > I am unhappy about 3 things: > > > > > > > > 1) My co-worker did not become a design team member even though he > > > > volunteered for it. > > > > > > I am not aware that we rejected for anima-bootstrap anyone who > > > volunteered during the announced time window, can you remind me of the > > > name so i go back and check email archive to see what happened ? > > > > > > > > > -- > --- > Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com > --001a11c3f5be16a50d051d47f746 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Fair enough - I was just being transparent about communica= tion. I actually arrived earlier than I thought I would on Monday; I assume= d based on my travel schedule that I would miss all of Monday's session= .

Robert

On 14 August 2015 at 15:17, Toerless Eckert (eckert) <eckert@c= isco.com> wrote:
Thanks R= obert,

So, on the first mail thread i am not sure if i had simply already
sent the email i'd pasted in before saying folks can now simply subscri= be
because the mailing list was created and therefore we provided no further reply or if we did overlook to reply.

To avoid further miscommunication, i'd suggest to loud and clearly comp= lain
about bad WG chairing on the list once they don't answer=C2=A0 to priva= te emails
in what you perceive to be timely.

On the second mail i do stand to the reply we formulated to you.
We felt that if we had a slot on monday that would help continuing the work=
through the week into thursday and that turned out to be true.
If you would have said you might have made it to the second half of monday,=
i'd changed the agenda order for monday to make bootstrap late.

Cheers
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Toerless

On Fri, Aug 14, 2015 at 03:05:15PM +0100, Robert Cragie wrote:
> Hi Toerless,
>
> In response to the specific request for more information. I received a= n
> e-mail through anima mailing list from anima chairs on Jun 17:
>
> '''
> Hi folks,
>
> If you had responded to our poll for the anima bootstrap team,
> you should have gotten an invite email now. If not, then please
> send us an email because i must have overlooked an email
>
> Thanks!
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Sheng & Toerless
> '''
>
> I responded 8 hours later (put it down to timezone difference) to
> anima-chairs@ietf.org: >
> '''
> Apologies for not replying sooner. I am interested in participating in= the
> bootstrap design team.
> '''
>
> I heard nothing more. Perhaps I should have followed up but I was pati= ent
> for a while then it most likely went off my radar. So, not an outright=
> rejection as such, but could be taken as a tacit rejection :-)
>
> Furthermore, I put in a polite request to consider changing the agenda= for
> IETF 93 to move the bootstrapping conversation to Thursday session as = I
> didn't think I would be in Prague in time for the first anima sess= ion on
> Monday, where bootstrapping was being discussed. Again I heard nothing=
> which prompted me to ping ani= ma-chairs@ietf.org to make sure my e-mail were
> getting through. I subsequently received this refusal:
>
> '''
> Hi, Robert,
>
> The WG would like to have most important work items, including bootstr= ap,
> discussed on Monday morning session, in which more attendances are exp= ected
> with good spirits. It would also allow the authors/design teams to wor= k
> based on the feedback/discussion. The bootstrap design team would keep=
> working during the IETF work. You can catch up and work together with = them.
> They are expected to make a progress update on Thursday afternoon sess= ion.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Sheng
> '''
>
> I did get there in time for half of Monday's session but looks lik= e I still
> missed the bootstrapping conversation. I did have a brief chat with Ma= x
> who, to be fair, encouraged me to get more involved however I was not = made
> aware of any design team side meetings at IETF 93 and it appears nothi= ng
> was announced on anima-bootstrap list either.
>
> I am not complaining but I have to agree with Hannes that the design t= eam
> came across as exclusive at the time. Anyway, I am happy to review the=
> latest draft and will provide feedback.
>
> Robert
>
> On 14 August 2015 at 14:14, Toerless Eckert (eckert) <eckert@cisco.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Wrt to the other questions:
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 14, 2015 at 09:12:19AM +0200, Hannes Tschofenig wrote= :
> > > I am unhappy about 3 things:
> > >
> > > 1) My co-worker did not become a design team member even tho= ugh he
> > > volunteered for it.
> >
> > I am not aware that we rejected for anima-bootstrap anyone who > > volunteered during the announced time window, can you remind me o= f the
> > name so i go back and check email archive to see what happened ?<= br> > >
>
> <snip>

--
---
Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com

--001a11c3f5be16a50d051d47f746-- From nobody Fri Aug 14 18:28:12 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D50D1B2B4F for ; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 18:28:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pZlUlDPE2MGY for ; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 18:28:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x22a.google.com (mail-pa0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB6B11B2B4E for ; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 18:28:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pacrr5 with SMTP id rr5so70712457pac.3 for ; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 18:28:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=P0rz2YSzsE/Q8SjuFERsKG2GVBITkkUKymRElYwMiL8=; b=bDo4oeHvUY1KnRhMLpl8m/+D+J9y/3z5SjVJ/lJl1v2UjxxRE3rq594h1rqNSAn3sD fu4UHKDd2bN2T+RPubWfemnPBdLB1L2XuuajgiJafAOOuj5+dXjmmPZMz5xWKKDoahl7 ipr4ubbAjiUyLH7u2UCIY7tH7LQYQh3W3ZV3+fnGvlJBi/mZjxUCNth5nolrFv4j1fsK dmUiKefeVq+3sW0m1//tJt4BMkvzz+j2IcZWDqvmr6m9FTWLoFc5Gtp8JcuTnj0e2uoW T1QlDGD6vvY84NNU7x7dWOX4oDDOolNIJez3RgYrYf4y/j7KvOq4OFe6jRY34NknC/7p pMvg== X-Received: by 10.66.246.228 with SMTP id xz4mr31392969pac.46.1439602089522; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 18:28:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:768c:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:768c:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id fx4sm7329768pbb.92.2015.08.14.18.28.04 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 14 Aug 2015 18:28:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <55CE95B0.2010206@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 13:28:16 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Richardson , Hannes Tschofenig References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> <55CB2E24.3030604@cs.tcd.ie> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1E391@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CC78BF.20104@gmx.net> <2F014D30-692D-4592-AE45-45AF34396763@cisco.com> <55CD94D3.7060109@gmx.net> <29185.1439564839@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <29185.1439564839@sandelman.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , "Max Pritikin \(pritikin\)" , Kathleen Moriarty , Sheng Jiang , anima , Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [Anima] Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 01:28:11 -0000 Hopefully some misunderstandings and miscommunications have already been resolved, but I want to add a couple of points below. On 15/08/2015 03:07, Michael Richardson wrote:> > Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > > For some time I thought that ANIMA does not focus on IoT but then I get > > this impression again from reading your document abstract. If it also > > focuses on IoT then what is the difference between ANIMA and ACE? > > All of the work of ANIMA focuses on the part of that we agreed would be out > of scope for ACE!!!! In any case, the security bootstrap is only a small part of Anima. (It's vital, because it's a pre-condition for everything else.) > I felt we had to solve it (the bootstrap problem) in the non-constrained case > first, and I felt that some other group (I didn't know ANIMA would happen) > would get there while ACE could focus on the core protocol. > > You speak of IoT as if it was one thing, and yet really, it's too imprecise > to be anything. ACE is focused on *constrained* devices. > > ANIMA is not chartered specifically to work on constrained devices, yet it > hasn't been made out of scope. Intentionally. At least for the signaling protocol (which is another small part of Anima), the scope is any autonomic device that might communicate with other autonomic devices. In my mind that's anything from a lighting controller for one floor of a building to a core router in a Tier 1 ISP. (I wouldn't extend it down to individual smart light switches, but I could be wrong.) And we're hoping for a uniform solution for the security bootstrap across that range. > {personally, I have been left off many design teams} If there's anyone who thinks they were left off the Anima signaling design team, please say so! Brian From nobody Sun Aug 16 00:59:14 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9A3D1A8A62; Sun, 16 Aug 2015 00:59:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Dlq0BGKlpNGp; Sun, 16 Aug 2015 00:59:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D7B91A8A8D; Sun, 16 Aug 2015 00:59:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.4.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20150816075905.16668.10409.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 00:59:05 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: anima@ietf.org Subject: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-ietf-anima-grasp-00.txt X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 07:59:08 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach Working Group of the IETF. Title : A Generic Autonomic Signaling Protocol (GRASP) Authors : Brian Carpenter Bing Liu Filename : draft-ietf-anima-grasp-00.txt Pages : 48 Date : 2015-08-13 Abstract: This document establishes requirements for a signaling protocol that enables autonomic devices and autonomic service agents to dynamically discover peers, to synchronize state with them, and to negotiate parameter settings mutually with them. The document then defines a general protocol for discovery, synchronization and negotiation, while the technical objectives for specific scenarios are to be described in separate documents. An Appendix briefly discusses existing protocols with comparable features. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-anima-grasp/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-grasp-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Sun Aug 16 01:44:43 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 998A41A8FD2 for ; Sun, 16 Aug 2015 01:44:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Px3b2RQictAC for ; Sun, 16 Aug 2015 01:44:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.86.78]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 16A8F1A8F50 for ; Sun, 16 Aug 2015 01:44:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2206; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1439714680; x=1440924280; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:mime-version; bh=4PJgNx6jtI8AjXDxvQtFWDLbvmDxV1c6d4/GQ1vtQ58=; b=f7ukPOtbIe6j/+0j6S+fVwSuIJasWrgzQsmw+ivOztGjLc530PEpt7BD DZ3H6S1WhXA+h9Wam8zpBpAem0uitAkdSm063U2KUvvXGMg17uMjU9Ovq AViBENvhrcajA/bitzt4Z72rXtkttdO+U2ELZzqFwsHEe9IuuX/QO6rRJ Q=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0AeBQDmTNBV/5tdJa1dgxvIRzsRAQEBAQEBAYEKhGR7NAWJCqkopSYBAQgBAQEBAR2QeYMBgRQFjVKHS4xpA5onJoQdHoJ/AQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.15,688,1432598400"; d="scan'208";a="18988065" Received: from rcdn-core-4.cisco.com ([173.37.93.155]) by rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP; 16 Aug 2015 08:44:40 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by rcdn-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t7G8idu8004521 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 16 Aug 2015 08:44:40 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t7G8ideq004683 for ; Sun, 16 Aug 2015 01:44:39 -0700 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id t7G8idWQ004681 for anima@ietf.org; Sun, 16 Aug 2015 01:44:39 -0700 Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 01:44:38 -0700 From: Toerless Eckert To: anima@ietf.org Message-ID: <20150816084438.GA2439@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Subject: [Anima] Discuss: acp "simplifications" X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 08:44:42 -0000 So, we've come some way wrt. whether ACP should be optional or not for an autonomic device, and i think we have more people chime in on ACP being non-optional, and the only question was about the minimum complexity required for an AN device. One way to think about simplification is to think about the "Data-plane(s)" to be optional! Aka: Think of some future target "lightweight" autonomic devices mean to be deployed in some IoT environment with ONLY sensors/actors, and all the intelligence required to serve these actors/sensors is in ASAs - communicating with each other via GARP and maybe on the edge to the actor/sensors also via other protocols (legacy). So, what's the ACP for ? Well, all the stuff we defined: - zero touch: - key infra. - routing for IPv6 unicast. - end-to-end security via hop-by-hop encryption. - ASA to ASA objective discovery / utilization - ASA (not in charter yet) This is all perfectly beneficial/necessary even for that future. So, but whats a data-plane for ? IMHO, the data-plane is really only the "legacy-network" that i want to configure/manage. But if i build out a new network autonomously only, why would i need it ? IMHO, i would not need it. Aka: I could have lightweight AN-FOOBAR devices that have ASAs for FOOBAR (eg: lighting, manufacturing, ... ), they ONLY have ACP, and i can ONLY connect FOOBAR clients to them. I connect those AN-FOOBAR devices to AN-IT devices, where "IT" means they have all this existing "data-plane" stuff, and e voila ( ;-) ), it will work nicely together. When i use the ACP in my "stable-connectivity" approach to set up the (data-plane(s)), i would only be able to do that on the AN-IT devices, because, well, the AN-FOOBAR devices don't have a data-plane. And of course, i could always choose to build AN-IT-FOOBAR, meaning i also run the FOOBAR ASAs on an AN-IT device. And only "IT" ASAs should dare to require communicating with each other over a data-plane, becuase in lightweight AN devices, there is no data-plane. So, i propose wrt to anima design, Data-Plane is optional, and required by what we describe in "stable connectivity" . Cheers Toerless From nobody Sun Aug 16 13:20:01 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2407B1A891D for ; Sun, 16 Aug 2015 13:20:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mdqawi3qqCSn for ; Sun, 16 Aug 2015 13:19:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x236.google.com (mail-pa0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 84E1C1A8911 for ; Sun, 16 Aug 2015 13:19:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by paccq16 with SMTP id cq16so49620538pac.1 for ; Sun, 16 Aug 2015 13:19:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=IPy9Qw0cn0cbTAyQKcbAQQwho9ZjI1WX2BbCdKrWWvE=; b=K2TIZpAYioxi4tfDcj0njzCuxS029x4tHTCMjrmZBiJYv+CyKfy3yqojUq2ensKm1G QgJd6+46h5tehruG6ZsuFQJHqwiRshuCnU/JrD0iPx9eVURXEOERH7hg7aqRgoTgwZOa 1wntboiqJargoKWKUeJAZfk9UQ8yqjpswaAQuYVLBr4OFq0JxlD/fkyOxsUG4Ut+CPFk lMeiVIZVf3wjWhUJ4FNcqMRWuh5YNwcXAkj4EQCtJ0D+rz4ytMEU7cdbVpgXFXB3Q32T B27yHrUr7dcHvra0H9THivO73Mbhf/bNPEVuyEbEnT9IZx1KfYvr9zVOMBVhdF8Mk4N+ PuAw== X-Received: by 10.68.133.68 with SMTP id pa4mr64193913pbb.71.1439756398081; Sun, 16 Aug 2015 13:19:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:4c82:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:4c82:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id qp5sm12196386pbc.0.2015.08.16.13.19.56 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 16 Aug 2015 13:19:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <55D0F069.30905@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 08:19:53 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: anima@ietf.org References: <20150816075905.16668.10409.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20150816075905.16668.10409.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-ietf-anima-grasp-00.txt X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 20:20:00 -0000 Hi, The technical changes in this version compared to draft-carpenter-anima-gdn-protocol are: - protocol renamed to GRASP - added URL locator type There is also one open issue added - security of unsolicited Response multicasts (Section 3.3.5). At the moment, unsolicited Responses are assumed to be sent and relayed via link-local multicast, which is insecure. This is not OK! Our next big job on GRASP is to investigate a CBOR formulation instead of TLVs. Carsten Bormann is very kindly going to help with that. Regards Brian On 16/08/2015 19:59, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > This draft is a work item of the Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach Working Group of the IETF. > > Title : A Generic Autonomic Signaling Protocol (GRASP) > Authors : Brian Carpenter > Bing Liu > Filename : draft-ietf-anima-grasp-00.txt > Pages : 48 > Date : 2015-08-13 > > Abstract: > This document establishes requirements for a signaling protocol that > enables autonomic devices and autonomic service agents to dynamically > discover peers, to synchronize state with them, and to negotiate > parameter settings mutually with them. The document then defines a > general protocol for discovery, synchronization and negotiation, > while the technical objectives for specific scenarios are to be > described in separate documents. An Appendix briefly discusses > existing protocols with comparable features. > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-anima-grasp/ > > There's also a htmlized version available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-grasp-00 > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > _______________________________________________ > I-D-Announce mailing list > I-D-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > From nobody Sun Aug 16 13:28:58 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D52231A87A9 for ; Sun, 16 Aug 2015 13:28:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mDVYFcr4tHaF for ; Sun, 16 Aug 2015 13:28:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pd0-x229.google.com (mail-pd0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 559F31A895C for ; Sun, 16 Aug 2015 13:28:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pdrh1 with SMTP id h1so48597386pdr.0 for ; Sun, 16 Aug 2015 13:28:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=nSp9nAtVJtQTvPf9kNIIn6+F6d8aFVA5br61yCXiq88=; b=BG5b7Wgz3PAroIgcAA/2h0mYty19xrSSSxczBD5TaB4vMoYaYgt1CAOSA+ysRgmqZv qdgA223TwfnOIT0fNhobEFMLi+cZllDan7pLOfiyij9rt2CQxtI0lXchzjXyD+wDNz9K 3hFSfW7p52/zi5SwHhKEIZpb0D/2EYgQgR+dSFP9suMqHnTgiQvV9yrbKIHGvrQHdIdw 8AzHInm5ILD4eK8qa/rw/hS2sb0/WhLEHc26DxIrYxGiLuxuY1Ca0oeY05iBhLZIKkci EMO/bQvXzJss9e1mFqBBNylRZMvC+ed5S58uPzrTPKCKiJoSXv7LPiha5BN3rL8tcbrn C34Q== X-Received: by 10.70.7.162 with SMTP id k2mr109034799pda.128.1439756932911; Sun, 16 Aug 2015 13:28:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:4c82:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:4c82:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v9sm12230451pdn.69.2015.08.16.13.28.50 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 16 Aug 2015 13:28:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <55D0F280.2050403@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 08:28:48 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anima WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Anima] Request for review of GRASP requirements X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 20:28:55 -0000 WG, Please review the requirements section of draft-ietf-anima-grasp-00: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-grasp-00#section-2 The requirements are numbered 1..25. If you have comments, please mention the requirement number, or propose a completely new requirement. If we don't get comments by the end of August, the design team will assume that the WG is happy with the existing set of requirements. Regards Brian From nobody Sun Aug 16 22:13:47 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1C131A6EE8 for ; Sun, 16 Aug 2015 22:13:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qMWempH8zVon for ; Sun, 16 Aug 2015 22:13:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pd0-x235.google.com (mail-pd0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 69FDF1A6EE7 for ; Sun, 16 Aug 2015 22:13:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pdbmi9 with SMTP id mi9so11144736pdb.3 for ; Sun, 16 Aug 2015 22:13:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=5mo+UUdwBm4MnabMOMtZTjLt/F/QjWaClw7sccIlmz0=; b=cAFl7vcRUls3QAtVMzxiHeAr71sqy5aR4f8R21vVzgpZnWAvH27HC7m0mNGkKmsisu RMwGyrY5mIusbouEU13KWtOWokLFuroeZ+mDkf5qkfAxQXrP4Ud7rh0eIMGt9dsAFV2M kUBkbZxZ/YIUFlGF75mbSRH49ap3860wNjaJ44jJnrg2t/UNBdnYEknH2bzZ9tKafHDy K4YAwV/O8fBL2ddzWcW9YCLO2QCGLxRMGg7SKS5SChHhSprYyi9og5tashm/uKtPAgpQ qH+Hmo584n1ml7F15l6gECkissUavfuwOcNFR1E8mzG/+pyl/PJ3rLaXH/aDNkeFJcNP QeIw== X-Received: by 10.70.14.36 with SMTP id m4mr112114850pdc.117.1439788423919; Sun, 16 Aug 2015 22:13:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:4c82:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:4c82:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id eg2sm13153340pad.44.2015.08.16.22.13.41 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 16 Aug 2015 22:13:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <55D16D7D.2080408@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 17:13:33 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Toerless Eckert , anima@ietf.org References: <20150816084438.GA2439@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <20150816084438.GA2439@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Anima] Discuss: acp "simplifications" X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 05:13:46 -0000 Hi Toerless, Comment at the end: On 16/08/2015 20:44, Toerless Eckert wrote: > So, we've come some way wrt. whether ACP should be optional or not for an > autonomic device, and i think we have more people chime in on ACP being non-optional, > and the only question was about the minimum complexity required for an AN device. > > One way to think about simplification is to think about the "Data-plane(s)" to be > optional! > > Aka: Think of some future target "lightweight" autonomic devices mean to be deployed > in some IoT environment with ONLY sensors/actors, and all the intelligence required > to serve these actors/sensors is in ASAs - communicating with each other via GARP > and maybe on the edge to the actor/sensors also via other protocols (legacy). So, > what's the ACP for ? Well, all the stuff we defined: > > - zero touch: > - key infra. > - routing for IPv6 unicast. > - end-to-end security via hop-by-hop encryption. > - ASA to ASA objective discovery / utilization > - ASA (not in charter yet) > > This is all perfectly beneficial/necessary even for that future. > > So, but whats a data-plane for ? IMHO, the data-plane is really only the > "legacy-network" that i want to configure/manage. But if i build out a new > network autonomously only, why would i need it ? > > IMHO, i would not need it. > > Aka: I could have lightweight AN-FOOBAR devices that have ASAs for FOOBAR > (eg: lighting, manufacturing, ... ), they ONLY have ACP, and i can ONLY > connect FOOBAR clients to them. I connect those AN-FOOBAR devices > to AN-IT devices, where "IT" means they have all this existing "data-plane" stuff, > and e voila ( ;-) ), it will work nicely together. When i use the ACP > in my "stable-connectivity" approach to set up the (data-plane(s)), i would > only be able to do that on the AN-IT devices, because, well, the AN-FOOBAR > devices don't have a data-plane. And of course, i could always choose to build > AN-IT-FOOBAR, meaning i also run the FOOBAR ASAs on an AN-IT device. And only > "IT" ASAs should dare to require communicating with each other over a data-plane, > becuase in lightweight AN devices, there is no data-plane. > > So, i propose wrt to anima design, Data-Plane is optional, and required by > what we describe in "stable connectivity" . I don't think we even need to say even that much. I think we can simply say that it's an ASA's own business how it communicates with the devices that it manages, and how they communicate with each other. In traditional networks it will be a traditional data plane (and the "stable connectivity" use case fits there). I think I'm agreeing with you but also suggesting that we say as little as possible. Brian From nobody Mon Aug 17 00:50:44 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC6D11A8712 for ; Mon, 17 Aug 2015 00:50:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.61 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.61 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3xVeruHQADyb for ; Mon, 17 Aug 2015 00:50:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EF13E1A8704 for ; Mon, 17 Aug 2015 00:50:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.131.138] ([80.92.114.40]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx103) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0McUnM-1Z9iIj0nhI-00HcaY; Mon, 17 Aug 2015 09:50:25 +0200 Message-ID: <55D1923C.6030202@gmx.net> Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 09:50:20 +0200 From: Hannes Tschofenig User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> <55CB2E24.3030604@cs.tcd.ie> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1E391@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CC78BF.20104@gmx.net> <2F014D30-692D-4592-AE45-45AF34396763@cisco.com> <55CD94D3.7060109@gmx.net> <20150814131407.GB3335@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <20150814131407.GB3335@cisco.com> OpenPGP: id=4D776BC9 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="BhlPRDwnOU1etriWVvgvHX0j2GHCfXaSl" X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:FNmDfIxZFVadz1OR3czNygzZ6vi7/QcORx95cXsT15YhdOkoZbf yCwn3MGhkkmkcb3s12WaQe3PSLJ/0sqspntgglw82aiwBrU1d16gUEF2vjqKrCOmK/f+1nS iFsrVTQAt58q0cZOgnFrijzkKv4FSlxrYLcbULJeNrkXY4SrKiOp5vnoKT12BFKPxG+x8yF w3yrkX8EyHiUzyodsXSRg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:kitnSkHEhRk=:ZMz8KI0esP9lxc2MMaxenv mLnaBmhe0wwCU7si2f6LN7m2yeYpBfu66wswzeYVkHGxpwRNgNu6PQ6hpQwpvNdPYnugVycp5 xHVlvsJJwX/uj+1ewgIBAD2VPDjC7Xm32puZHx3ZDq25m9cS60wvXXVtDrUuZQGuHAGfyZxaa T3lTvWwr2TyzPlkZ+Hp6knTZYJAOnvNfkyNDZJf7w1GKJJSF0Nd1jN2ifTyMrQs36yAcNs2UR eVJnIeqtIJn3sELlWvIn1DUxBWxQtGxkyg0BQvBBPxJzQ4mFjqZ9VIOz7wSfC/WIBEMaAM2nX zm7qEwbCHt796WZAFBALsuoi5N5KdhO3gP+2P1i8lZSSvWU/Kpr30lfHLbisl+DWBQk763Y55 QR6iElkddIXGuir9Ncs7MdvmMJQrSt5HMzIqS+BIxgQUIsk/0438ZR1yOKqx0srZwv4+kFnEE 7r/AaVJdn+zh2hNE5qEie4eyOVuG1keCgV/ODH4oq+nHp9XkkaZT7vy6t8sQvaKYwHCcOYxtc gNW22DmTqOmfkq9x0PT1krrPGvvEzcV4CfKfcsV/aB6LgWS7/myg5knwwDZNVSTPEsTFjWKCh Tvf7o2OVP5al2/QyXASr2FMeVgEhmDzipmu0aOX337Xt5ZjimNPkXfbXyGq1vAnVuNMz0XNxa 2feLgv++SDPXAGMNz2BqwioyemJISfIR8wfHb1tbVSoCmkiWl2rTVxRcqiTKQtSkIZUNUdmil ClFY7m2hZgdQSSD+ Archived-At: Cc: "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , "Max Pritikin \(pritikin\)" , Kathleen Moriarty , Sheng Jiang , anima , Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [Anima] Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 07:50:42 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --BhlPRDwnOU1etriWVvgvHX0j2GHCfXaSl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Toerles, some in the IoT community refer to RFC 7228 when they talk about constrained devices and networks. For example, in ACE we have several folks who are designing for a solution that supports symmetric keys since public key cryptography is too heavy for their envisioned class of device. We developed many use cases to avoid having an abstract discussion. Still, this is not entirely satisfactory (at least to me) and for that reason several ACE participants worked on user stories to paint the describe the bigger picture (including user interactions). I haven't seen any detailed use cases / user stories from the ANIMA working group to judge whether there are common aspects. A further comment below: On 08/14/2015 03:14 PM, Toerless Eckert (eckert) wrote: >> > 3) I am unhappy about the unclear scope of the ANIMA working group a= nd >> > how it relates to other working groups. > It would be nice if you could be more specific: If its technical, pleas= e > have the discussion here on the groups list. If it's more about charter= > text interpretation, interpretation of responsibilities or other bureau= cracy > issues, i'd suggest to start discussing this between WG chairs and ADs > (as needed) and then we can report back to the WGs (unless WG members a= re > happy to have the lists technical to bureaucracy SNR to be low...). >=20 >> > For some time I thought that ANIMA does not focus on IoT but then I = get >> > this impression again from reading your document abstract. If it als= o >> > focuses on IoT then what is the difference between ANIMA and ACE? > How do you define IoT and "constrained environments" ? Are the concerns= > for battery life time in an octo-core 2Ghz smartphone in scope for > ACE ? Is the ethernet in a train IoT ? Aka: lets just talk ANIMA vs. AC= E: >=20 > From just quick reading ACE charter, it seems to be about AAK in > bitrate/memory/cpu constrained devices by adding it to existing/evolvin= g > lot bitrate/memory/cpu protocols. >=20 > ANIMA has components like network wide autonomic connectivity, bootstra= p > and signaling as a framework for OAM and autonomic service agents in > scope. The type of networks we target are well-managed, which includes > SP, Enterprise, and IMHO networks that would like to call themselves Io= T > but also are well-managed (aka: have an operating entity paid for the j= ob). >=20 > ANIMA definitely needs to further refine the set of constraints to devi= ces > and neetwork connectivity especially at the lower end into which we > think we can reuse the anima technologies without creating so much > additional workt hat we'd rather like split off solutions for those spa= ces. >=20 >>> > > Authentication, authorization and key distribution concepts are o= f >>> > > course well established. What has not been clearly addressed is a= >>> > > clear framework for bootstrapping of the key infrastructures.=20 >> >=20 >> > You use manufacturer provided keys. This is a form of manually >> > provisioning information (even though it is done in a factory by a m= achine). > I don't agree with that classification. Maybe you can explain how > you think manufacturer provided keys must imply "manual" provisioning s= teps. If you look at http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tschofenig-ace-overview-00 then you see two models. The first model is widely used with many Bluetooth / Bluetooth Smart devices where the devices comes without any keys provisioned to the end customer. Then, there is a second model where there are some keys provisioned to the device already. Based on this initially provisioned key other keys are derived/distributed. You seem to be focusing on model #2. In discussions, however, I often get the impression that you (not you personally but folks in the group) mix the properties with what is available with model #1. In general, it is easy to derive/distribute new keys once you have already gone through the effort of distributing the initial keys. This is what many IETF protocols do. Ciao Hannes --BhlPRDwnOU1etriWVvgvHX0j2GHCfXaSl Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJV0ZI8AAoJEGhJURNOOiAtRnAH/R2M7MTO8C7+CzYRGmGt8JH/ zteLkr5X4prZwif7mrionI0O/Bi7ZJknE6vIOYEL1EcaIqBXWqeu6dm5RDAJVUQK gXEvrIMZgKaWu7RQlBF9XVOJjTmYdhB8v2VrAfV7sFhl8zJaBJ2cCVAB1JAyzPRg 1AVOyhAIsX94Ag5zRl/hR5HFMj95DVHftxFcmTF3sIRHnoQJeKSrUEIBzojQSeff b4wm13TioWtwEQ2yoroPRJTKHM/GVgKNIwq62ZqLQaWwz3YYOhs1UHwlaNIt1tjP hGCzmSLuqhqDq+fR0N7pg2kXAIEGXadnWCzbO1AJ+pTZLdeR0je3G66GMOi8K2o= =JkAT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --BhlPRDwnOU1etriWVvgvHX0j2GHCfXaSl-- From nobody Mon Aug 17 01:17:03 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EAD61A87E4 for ; Mon, 17 Aug 2015 01:17:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.61 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.61 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n7dx87DYHM7G for ; Mon, 17 Aug 2015 01:17:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3BAFF1A87EA for ; Mon, 17 Aug 2015 01:17:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.131.138] ([80.92.114.40]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx101) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MPYqL-1ZMYlT22XR-004gZY; Mon, 17 Aug 2015 10:16:54 +0200 Message-ID: <55D19872.9040509@gmx.net> Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 10:16:50 +0200 From: Hannes Tschofenig User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Max Pritikin (pritikin)" References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> <55CB2E24.3030604@cs.tcd.ie> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1E391@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CC78BF.20104@gmx.net> <2F014D30-692D-4592-AE45-45AF34396763@cisco.com> <55CD94D3.7060109@gmx.net> <3951A5EB-7834-4048-BC50-875C32DDBF13@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <3951A5EB-7834-4048-BC50-875C32DDBF13@cisco.com> OpenPGP: id=4D776BC9 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="jMKmALgLgTkeUWNxUjxdN6kvSXCrHdbvi" X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:3Udrnx8BLhdh9JMnJxr7oKBtuxB2+69zSwW+qSMmTxDY5VyrOGL yFUOfm7BPlYHdJzBo0bZPYlXKiOBGHKudx0KHjVxRPpfxjFsVGd2efThOpFtCpxTYniYsNn cO9mTnX7hmZ5mJxSzjWXYYTAZpX0zsWaybA6gAcdc6lKYCeqH4aD2mpibYFTa5R0P/8sNET JYrWlF6PxiDEIxIKaU4jw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:YCB3eIXzjt8=:IBumnKtaV7XKVfoRbw1uaW LglzhpgJYhqCMXtfaxXcWpFq5au1CcgWk/Kq6ZvIbvuENFOXmXVkA9EE0sztxGgjR747zYhiP xKQxiU0wOd8NM2YJPrOknp6NYb420lOfDxUyq8gSfJGTx3YQWT/bsPMIKBCVcNnTBrbqRejXW lUACkhmH1PmIVGaUUrXcmeTtANLzw19zQJABjuoRhtvWa/ObC3Tu94D8q9Y6Jbs3n7+HJv+EZ NLZuxlGmCELK2czir6XwWTp5Ympek3FCmPYvaeuPoiQ26WBmTff/8RSPBiWm4GyMyS6yrXGfd sP8qIisT5QUmu2PcEyUX3l1/c5sQCifi/qybmzHodHqIXT4HCgjeGnOhn0pz2zFWf/lHXrrWy OF8yPcBVlDX/nXym/c76gxdMZ1L1jnnJ0LwXpAM2HV5YB20Hxry/pSCcuYqcGWyCL8aZu/4qN yU7xoR8Z+WJ/krQ6TC0IowLhSnoHk7qcG9jy/WQjAhkOhCRtL27CS9NTSoEsYgn6Xy9JxCF6k 9BMp/L+x5u9atuuk50I5nDAnJsxZwqmmcMe7tCVhMydxBDUJWVCi2G/4fzMExWhoqwcHH1Cac vMHlAkv723iPTY3Jp7uom4pn58OfwubR4+akbVDe7eVXUKHluXR7tuYLrdqOm6vrxBQ+jTqUZ aPdJCSsGiwPlqw4rVjYEChC82VvLx44g3Z+kSgm/bwQ4emBGq/rmocVGOZ3VxjtdleQH3ydpz iStZNtM82/kalLFr Archived-At: Cc: "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , Kathleen Moriarty , Sheng Jiang , anima , Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [Anima] Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 08:17:02 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --jMKmALgLgTkeUWNxUjxdN6kvSXCrHdbvi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Max, > I=92m glad I approached you. It sounds like you=92ve been frustrated by= > something for a while. I believe you misinterpret frustration. I speak up when I see things going wrong rather than being silent. You might call this behaviour undiplomatic or, even worse, honest. >=20 >=20 >> I am sure you don't understand that this can be frustrating since >> you had 4 persons from Cisco on the design team. >=20 > Clearly we have an interest. But in many calls it=92s just been Michael= > Richardson and myself. Oops. Not good (tm). >> You use manufacturer provided keys. This is a form of manually=20 >> provisioning information (even though it is done in a factory by a >> machine). >=20 > As an author of the IEEE 802.1AR document I clearly agree that the > Initial Device IDentity (IDevID) is an important aspect of > bootstrapping. The draft also goes into how the =91imprint=92 on the > local network is secured. This is a harder problem to solve; and I > reject =93Trust On First Use=94 (TOFU) as it leaves a large security > vulnerability unmitigated. This the area where terminology gets confusing 0) You use the term 'device identity'. I use the term device credential since the term 'identity' is so confusing even in the field where humans (users) are involved. We have established terminology for that purpose in RFC 6973. A device credential consists of keying material, algorithms, and parameters used by the device to authenticate itself to some other nodes (potentially only a limited set of nodes). Of course, with different credentials the details about what needs to be provisioned varies. 1) You seem to be using the term "bootstrapping" for provisioning keys (and configuration parameters) in a factory. I call this device credential provisioning. 2) You use the term "imprinting" for the use of the manufacturer provided keys to distribute further keying material/configuration parameters. I call this step device management since you typically want to send a number of things to the device. The key exchange component is definitely in there but there are also aspects of authorization / permission management included as well. Ciao Hannes --jMKmALgLgTkeUWNxUjxdN6kvSXCrHdbvi Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJV0ZhyAAoJEGhJURNOOiAtytkH/j0dNyoF/FWdouhDREyRAmq9 +R7kxfos1WoWc1r+bAWSXWGsDYc5Uks0sKM08qvf5ucRtnvIFPREAcgBeTxz+6fG QtHOUI+6PSaKo0tpqPBbMvmLLmY3E21/a17JA3+3mTgtnxhBtP1L7NAc2GfLaXZa iXNboc3ugvpgG+H/WJbLvyJXzXZGmjgSYZ/yXvBLlM5mM4/fs0EiwGu0Lr9xYxrX jtzXT2EnwFZJiL31H6Sukda9WPHpTeuhtgTjdoNWwD/DyNMluEs8OZXi9f67kYd8 7KK/pv90iZpZIMTKTG/f5Mc5cSU3N9f10Y5japs9rAuaXyvhcDwhEZZbB1C7MGE= =SqmR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --jMKmALgLgTkeUWNxUjxdN6kvSXCrHdbvi-- From nobody Mon Aug 17 03:01:07 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11B721A8AEF for ; Mon, 17 Aug 2015 03:01:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h2iqk-Iv-Z2N for ; Mon, 17 Aug 2015 03:01:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-6.cisco.com (alln-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.142.93]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 11FA11A8AF0 for ; Mon, 17 Aug 2015 03:01:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2076; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1439805661; x=1441015261; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:mime-version; bh=bhuWVCP8F5E2YY+4Vcu+VLF2ifb5KOncca6gXqpsd5A=; b=IO7D2gG6kGUA82kPKuacD6v9UYCiERjXogqmFqnhdXOsSsgjrcwr5tz9 Q9k8fkd/L9F++EwybQiZez0rIVZgTG+2s7ditdRG+OQMvKpXPjGzNP6eX FRqMnBekGTGK9TnuV0A/K5cZrmuItcAOSe85YhPHdCekKvixR1pHaBPpn U=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0CXAgD2r9FV/5JdJa1dgxtUab1pAQmBbYcvOBQBAQEBAQEBgQqEZHs0BUmIQaoMpSwBAQEBAQUBAQEBAQEBG5ACg3iBFAWMXnSHS4UEh2UDghCYFyaCDR2Bcx4zgQWBRwEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.15,694,1432598400"; d="scan'208";a="179187119" Received: from rcdn-core-10.cisco.com ([173.37.93.146]) by alln-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 17 Aug 2015 10:01:00 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by rcdn-core-10.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t7HA0x76031470 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 17 Aug 2015 10:01:00 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t7HA0xGx019619 for ; Mon, 17 Aug 2015 03:00:59 -0700 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id t7HA0xEx019617 for anima@ietf.org; Mon, 17 Aug 2015 03:00:59 -0700 Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 03:00:59 -0700 From: Toerless Eckert To: Anima WG Message-ID: <20150817100059.GA17654@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Subject: [Anima] Discus: address stats text: draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-addressing-01.txt X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 10:01:06 -0000 I think the following might be good text for the addressing draft: The address format proposes to use a hash of the domain name of the autonomic network as the primary prefix of the address (40 bit). The assumption is that the domain name used is unique across all non-maliciously formed autonomic networks. This leads to the following statistics using the common approximation p(n,d) = 1 - e^(-n^2/2d) Where n is 2^40, d is the number of autonomic networks considered, and p(n,d) is the probability that at least two of the n autonomic networks will have the same domain prefix (aka: unwanted collision). If a highly "successfull" cooperation has to deal merging 100 daughter companies that assigned their domain-name and prefix independently, p(100,d) < 10e-7. The format is therefore more than sufficient to ensure a limited number of random autonomic networks to be reachable from a single location without address conflict. If 1000 eg: research organizations wanted to give ACP access to a common NOC, this would still lead to p(1000,d) < 10e-5 probability of ACP addressing conflict. If 1,000,000 networks would run their own ACP, and all where to be interconnected, the probability of address conflict would be 60%. The addressing format is therefore clearly meant to primarily be used in isolated network with above examples of potentially beneficial interconnections giving an outline what could be feasible. Any group of proactively planned autonomic networks that are required to be reachable from a single point are also capable of creating their own private registry of domain names used and allocing new ones such that they will not collide with existing ones. Example: Actual unique domain names Domain names used in AN domain1.com domain1.com domain2.com domain2.com domainN.com domainN.com.123 Aka: any scheme of moidfying the domain used in AN to make it unique vs. existing domain hashes in the group of considered autonomic network. From nobody Mon Aug 17 04:39:33 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB9991B2CBA for ; Mon, 17 Aug 2015 04:39:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FCHVCtonNfkn for ; Mon, 17 Aug 2015 04:39:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-6.cisco.com (alln-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.142.93]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D26D11B2CB4 for ; Mon, 17 Aug 2015 04:39:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=4473; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1439811570; x=1441021170; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=HNg8459Kp8oYU8ObkZBk8FagSZPVPySto34C907aaCA=; b=DOy6wuL8SZWVl3BYIcADD4KrPQM0HxoD7nvQ7CJr1DR1txNwugrO81sa eJIic24jvs1MxFHV9aqFccEEu+7HhFjzHgq3ZPGRnGYir0+ERabljzrl9 MbCXdxT5Be4azHnxDdfrD10kmCDyUhrawdLABejEMGjdKE/nfC0ErcP0D g=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.15,694,1432598400"; d="scan'208";a="179215552" Received: from rcdn-core-11.cisco.com ([173.37.93.147]) by alln-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 17 Aug 2015 11:39:29 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by rcdn-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t7HBdSUW027051 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 17 Aug 2015 11:39:29 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t7HBdS8A025676; Mon, 17 Aug 2015 04:39:28 -0700 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id t7HBdQtG025674; Mon, 17 Aug 2015 04:39:26 -0700 Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 04:39:26 -0700 From: "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" To: Hannes Tschofenig Message-ID: <20150817113926.GB17654@cisco.com> References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> <55CB2E24.3030604@cs.tcd.ie> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1E391@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CC78BF.20104@gmx.net> <2F014D30-692D-4592-AE45-45AF34396763@cisco.com> <55CD94D3.7060109@gmx.net> <20150814131407.GB3335@cisco.com> <55D1923C.6030202@gmx.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <55D1923C.6030202@gmx.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , "Max Pritikin \(pritikin\)" , Kathleen Moriarty , Sheng Jiang , anima , Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [Anima] Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 11:39:31 -0000 Inline. On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 09:50:20AM +0200, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > Hi Toerles, > > some in the IoT community refer to RFC 7228 when they talk about > constrained devices and networks. Yes, already on my toread list ;-) > For example, in ACE we have several folks who are designing for a > solution that supports symmetric keys since public key cryptography is > too heavy for their envisioned class of device. Sure, we can break the autonomic architecture into individual block and see if a subset would make it more attractive to specific constrained environments. Whether we would call that subset with the substituted elements (like pre-established shared keys) then still an ANIMA solution or not is not a technical but IETF process question. If there are pre-established keys, the first question to me is if (and if, how) a customer would want to / need to derive customer specific keys If it does want, and if that desired, then such a design would already be a lot closer to the current ANIMA targets than without it. Thats IMHO the end of the scope of building key infra". Then comes GARP for neighbor discovery, ACP building, eg: IPsec encryption channels, RPL routing. Depending on size all of this might be well feasible to re-use (if you do have to do routing, RPL seems to be a very lightweight option). > We developed many use cases to avoid having an abstract discussion. > Still, this is not entirely satisfactory (at least to me) and for that > reason several ACE participants worked on user stories to paint the > describe the bigger picture (including user interactions). > I haven't seen any detailed use cases / user stories from the ANIMA > working group to judge whether there are common aspects. Agreed. We have stable connectivity as the key user-story for how to use autonomic network infra WITHOUT any specifc ASAs (to communicate with NOC/controllers). We have the addressing draft as ONE example of autonomic agents achieving an objective. And then we had to stop because anything beyond that is not part of current charter. My gut feeling (and i'll have to discuss that with Sheng), is that we may open the door for more user-story drafts when a) we prove we make progress on charter items (which i think we do), and b) we get support from other WGs (like ACE, eg: you) that such user stories can support proliferating ANIMA charter item work better into other WGs. > A further comment below: > > >> > You use manufacturer provided keys. This is a form of manually > >> > provisioning information (even though it is done in a factory by a machine). > > I don't agree with that classification. Maybe you can explain how > > you think manufacturer provided keys must imply "manual" provisioning steps. > > If you look at > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tschofenig-ace-overview-00 then you see > two models. The first model is widely used with many Bluetooth / > Bluetooth Smart devices where the devices comes without any keys > provisioned to the end customer. Aka: pairing. > Then, there is a second model where > there are some keys provisioned to the device already. Based on this > initially provisioned key other keys are derived/distributed. > > You seem to be focusing on model #2. In discussions, however, I often > get the impression that you (not you personally but folks in the group) > mix the properties with what is available with model #1. Please elaoborate where you think there might be confusion. The way you explain it, the framework seems to be: -> first key phase: IDevID/MIC or pairing -> second key phase: deriving of customer/deployment keys. cutomer certificate or - customer shared key (constrained devices) Q: is this phase desirable/feasible for the embedded devices yo consider ? > In general, it is easy to derive/distribute new keys once you have > already gone through the effort of distributing the initial keys. This > is what many IETF protocols do. Sure, but the problem that the "second key phase" in ANIMA and NETCONF considers is the three party relationship between vendor, operator and devices. Maybe even with trusted third parties. So i think thats still new and not something we could ahve simply taken from existing IETF protocols (the complete workflow, not the components). Cheers Toerless > > Ciao > Hannes From nobody Mon Aug 17 05:02:35 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E1541B2CF6 for ; Mon, 17 Aug 2015 05:02:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OG9dBPPYpz2s for ; Mon, 17 Aug 2015 05:02:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-3.cisco.com (alln-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.142.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C19F1B2CF5 for ; Mon, 17 Aug 2015 05:02:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1104; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1439812953; x=1441022553; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=l7OPnvOHdJmT8U4lBiXD5wz8WR8bO3MGLiiDmx755EQ=; b=UYEFWbJHG55Lt2bZmGQ6BOkbu4M1WVRZelhPWVer4AFArjIAAw0IGtB3 M/fQFdez1lcmtXDqaYVX6JsRfFKszRGLt4kOymIVTV5+WzUH1vnJdwoyN h5hqw377ClLJ7eCYK07MpgKNEEdEyCXx0+fUsc05RR+78lB9y3jDU163m 8=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0ABBQDfzNFV/5xdJa1dgxu/MIduAoEuOhIBAQEBAQEBgQqEJAEBBDo/EAsYCSUPBUmIQc9hAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBF4pPgQOFCQeDGIEUBY1Sh0uMaQOaJyaCDhyBcx6CfwEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.15,694,1432598400"; d="scan'208";a="179002855" Received: from rcdn-core-5.cisco.com ([173.37.93.156]) by alln-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 17 Aug 2015 12:02:32 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by rcdn-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t7HC2VZj024699 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 17 Aug 2015 12:02:32 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t7HC2Vx2027397; Mon, 17 Aug 2015 05:02:31 -0700 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id t7HC2Vkj027396; Mon, 17 Aug 2015 05:02:31 -0700 Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 05:02:31 -0700 From: Toerless Eckert To: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <20150817120231.GA27153@cisco.com> References: <20150816084438.GA2439@cisco.com> <55D16D7D.2080408@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <55D16D7D.2080408@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: anima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Anima] Discuss: acp "simplifications" X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 12:02:34 -0000 On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 05:13:33PM +1200, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > I don't think we even need to say even that much. I think we can simply > say that it's an ASA's own business how it communicates with the devices > that it manages, and how they communicate with each other. In traditional > networks it will be a traditional data plane (and the "stable connectivity" > use case fits there). > > I think I'm agreeing with you but also suggesting that we say as little as > possible. Well, with ONLY drafts like "stable connectivity" and "addressing", both of which focus on the "IT" case i think we do not have a simple pitch of how to best apply autonomic design for greenfield designs, especially in IoT. Maybe a use-case draft would be right place to highlight the "no data plane needed" option ? As i said in my mail to Hannes, maybe we have a bit more breathing room to do such drafts with a) showing progress on charter items, b) explicit asks from other WGs for such use-case drafts to better understand how they could reuse anima charter items. Cheers Toerless From nobody Mon Aug 17 08:38:05 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D125F1AC443 for ; Mon, 17 Aug 2015 08:38:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=unavailable Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UlxVnp5RzXZX for ; Mon, 17 Aug 2015 08:38:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nagasaki.bogus.com (nagasaki.bogus.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D0D6C1AC41F for ; Mon, 17 Aug 2015 08:38:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mb.local ([172.56.9.71]) (authenticated bits=0) by nagasaki.bogus.com (8.14.9/8.14.9) with ESMTP id t7HFaf9x065584 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 17 Aug 2015 15:36:44 GMT (envelope-from joelja@bogus.com) To: Michael Richardson , Hannes Tschofenig References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> <55CB2E24.3030604@cs.tcd.ie> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1E391@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CC78BF.20104@gmx.net> <2F014D30-692D-4592-AE45-45AF34396763@cisco.com> <55CD94D3.7060109@gmx.net> <29185.1439564839@sandelman.ca> From: joel jaeggli X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Message-ID: <55D1FF83.4070507@bogus.com> Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 08:36:35 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:40.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/40.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <29185.1439564839@sandelman.ca> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="m6qBGTHpNFMtVNTBV7RQmOGhEa40SGcxI" Archived-At: Cc: "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , "Max Pritikin \(pritikin\)" , Kathleen Moriarty , Sheng Jiang , anima , Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [Anima] Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 15:38:04 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --m6qBGTHpNFMtVNTBV7RQmOGhEa40SGcxI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 8/14/15 8:07 AM, Michael Richardson wrote: >=20 > ANIMA is not chartered specifically to work on constrained devices, yet= it > hasn't been made out of scope. We tried I think to focu on a concise set of achievable goals in the charter. There is potential in thise space to either get wrapped around the axel and make no progress, or attempt to boil the ocean. It was the hope that the long gestation in the IRTF would leave us with the ability to narrow the scope of work. imho that doesn't mean it won't expand on recharter, or that we might have done it wrong in the first place, but drawing the line where it is respecting initial work items was intentional. joel > {personally, I have been left off many design teams} >=20 > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >=20 --m6qBGTHpNFMtVNTBV7RQmOGhEa40SGcxI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2 Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iEYEARECAAYFAlXR/4QACgkQ8AA1q7Z/VrK9bgCgiUw90NkuIKf3lzlHvRK4iUH5 JhYAn05RVF7/LjpbOH0GOhYmR7co+RN2 =h4Zq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --m6qBGTHpNFMtVNTBV7RQmOGhEa40SGcxI-- From nobody Mon Aug 17 18:04:05 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A3451B3051; Mon, 17 Aug 2015 18:03:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hhzo-RuBQ07u; Mon, 17 Aug 2015 18:03:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B09DF1B304A; Mon, 17 Aug 2015 18:03:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.4.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20150818010355.23080.35070.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 18:03:55 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: anima@ietf.org Subject: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-00.txt X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 01:03:58 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach Working Group of the IETF. Title : An Autonomic Control Plane Authors : Michael H. Behringer Steinthor Bjarnason Balaji BL Toerless Eckert Filename : draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-00.txt Pages : 18 Date : 2015-08-17 Abstract: Autonomic functions need a control plane to communicate, which depends on some addressing and routing. This Autonomic Control Plane should ideally be self-managing, and as independent as possible of configuration. One application is a "virtual out of band channel" for communications over a network that is not configured or mis- configured. This document describes requirements and implementation options for an "Autonomic Control Plane". The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue Aug 18 06:58:03 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2D3E1A874F for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 06:58:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.311 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.311 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aEnkcBcCYRCf for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 06:58:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E8421A8753 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 06:58:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0B8EBE5D; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 14:57:58 +0100 (IST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VbwXjEBASMLo; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 14:57:58 +0100 (IST) Received: from [134.226.36.180] (stephen-think.dsg.cs.tcd.ie [134.226.36.180]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A8ADABE33; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 14:57:58 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1439906278; bh=RJmq1t/zIeiAxbPqNVV53utp4lJNNwR8PIQ5RNMEchI=; h=Date:From:To:CC:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=KIq2fb9uDDCIMoTZn7d1+7G9G50tkWnpWTlTu1Bub+fM0oatr+WPQFwHMo9N4EkMD 0KTPo5Dca4Aek+LjwEgllhdbt3wgeE6gGDZQPp4gZj3e+3CWR8izCsNPd2lUn0rWqc sAbLyPGrALPI5baeSCYk24jeEzTxkEQZusfjwjE4= Message-ID: <55D339E6.10803@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 14:57:58 +0100 From: Stephen Farrell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: joel jaeggli , Michael Richardson , Hannes Tschofenig References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> <55CB2E24.3030604@cs.tcd.ie> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1E391@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CC78BF.20104@gmx.net> <2F014D30-692D-4592-AE45-45AF34396763@cisco.com> <55CD94D3.7060109@gmx.net> <29185.1439564839@sandelman.ca> <55D1FF83.4070507@bogus.com> In-Reply-To: <55D1FF83.4070507@bogus.com> OpenPGP: id=D66EA7906F0B897FB2E97D582F3C8736805F8DA2; url= Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="vnETJjox27VCochQhgFAm5VqoHpl7VT9Q" Archived-At: Cc: "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , "Max Pritikin \(pritikin\)" , Kathleen Moriarty , anima , Sheng Jiang Subject: [Anima] who's interested? (was: Re: Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document) X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 13:58:02 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --vnETJjox27VCochQhgFAm5VqoHpl7VT9Q Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Apologies for the oversized distribution list. Kathleen and I chatted about this, and indeed we had some discussion of related topics at the saag meeting in Prague. I'd like to see if there are a bunch of folks who are interested in doing work in this space and if there's a useful topic or set of topics on which work could be done and that needs a bit more co-ordination between working groups. I think that might well justify either a slot at the saag session at IETF94 or even perhaps a non-WG-forming BoF session if more time for discussion was needed. Minimally, Max Pritkin has already offered to do a presentation for saag at IETF94 presenting his view of the problem and solution spaces. (Which I guess will generate discussion:-) But first, I'd like to see who's interested in working on this between now and IETF94. If you are interested, please send me an offlist mail, preserving the subject line. Depending on how many of those I get I may start a new list or send around a few mails, but in any case I'll get back to this list in a week or two and what, if anything, is the plan. Cheers, S. --vnETJjox27VCochQhgFAm5VqoHpl7VT9Q Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJV0znmAAoJEC88hzaAX42iQIUH/jDrlb3aNDsAB5itXdr21jHi paFXrQWE/YqpDaaRiqxsPOikxRoj8pzwT5CwcSAzPYIz8aI1+tcAb876eYPQQDb2 WMVn5dYlxgg1jhKuVFKT6x59oVpfKASfxHbe4Qfl22mOmWIi45GpaVuloGgQLFaI ztST8AuwagB/B4zVNExKiwZiIM3M6SSNeqHsS66kudXwvfo/ABcsyhBg081sLWGz kqmZNseWnQbRpvL9dtllcHLRkRwr+QOCWw3yJnyWkVdLUR2TP3h9W8QMxU9Y9tby z90+Yyj1Z99OdP21d87FIeIjAmnyKZ1B6Aa9puml0PPaKs6zWYnxkn8wpdD6+58= =1eNF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --vnETJjox27VCochQhgFAm5VqoHpl7VT9Q-- From nobody Tue Aug 18 08:05:47 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D54D01A0252 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 08:05:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YLtiL5muQnpT for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 08:05:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 913711A0250 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 08:05:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87C19200A7; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 11:24:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 82B9363B10; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 11:05:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69E6363AEC; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 11:05:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Stephen Farrell In-Reply-To: <55D339E6.10803@cs.tcd.ie> References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> <55CB2E24.3030604@cs.tcd.ie> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1E391@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CC78BF.20104@gmx.net> <2F014D30-692D-4592-AE45-45AF34396763@cisco.com> <55CD94D3.7060109@gmx.net> <29185.1439564839@sandelman.ca> <55D1FF83.4070507@bogus.com> <55D339E6.10803@cs.tcd.ie> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 24.4.2 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Archived-At: Cc: "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , "Max Pritikin \(pritikin\)" , joel jaeggli , Kathleen Moriarty , Hannes Tschofenig , anima , Sheng Jiang Subject: Re: [Anima] who's interested? (was: Re: Conclusion: adopt draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra as ANIMA WG document) X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 15:05:46 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Stephen Farrell wrote: > Apologies for the oversized distribution list. > Kathleen and I chatted about this, and indeed we had some > discussion of related topics at the saag meeting in Prague. > I'd like to see if there are a bunch of folks who are > interested in doing work in this space and if there's a > useful topic or set of topics on which work could be done and > that needs a bit more co-ordination between working groups. I'm not exactly sure I understand the question. I think that the context is, wrt: draft-pritikin-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra which has just been adopted into ANIMA... so I'm not sure that we need another space for discussion of the problem in a non-constrained/non-challenged network space. So, I think that you skipped the question part :-) On the constrained-node/challenged network space, the 6band non-WG list already exists. There is a space of non-constrained-node with challenged networks (think mains powered Raspberry PI with 15.4 interface) and constrained-node on non-challenged network (think battery powered class-2 device with ethernet) where some different things might apply. > I think that might well justify either a slot at the saag > session at IETF94 or even perhaps a non-WG-forming BoF > session if more time for discussion was needed. Minimally, Max > Pritkin has already offered to do a presentation for saag at > IETF94 presenting his view of the problem and solution spaces. > (Which I guess will generate discussion:-) > But first, I'd like to see who's interested in working on > this between now and IETF94. If you are interested, please > send me an offlist mail, preserving the subject line. > Depending on how many of those I get I may start a new list > or send around a few mails, but in any case I'll get back > to this list in a week or two and what, if anything, is > the plan. > Cheers, > S. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBVdNJx4CLcPvd0N1lAQJ/yQf+Na7TuvvG2IfkO4jrwr5R0oMxxBexJT9P n4CyxPAeahlBUomXNkJBxfygoa1g1fgrfa7IZg1BwTIW/molZbhovFB0AICan3/r Aelozgd1kS1gj2hqEhoY4UIxaGNOUhNS1UQEvjvafi9cOCg4CwOPcoxMHnZG3mwx CphDkLRjsMlB3eCBTJCk+RE/q4WbHlvLjkMkrtxOb3fROntj4Z9wI7uSYhZSqAQt jGZ+z+lxNIsTw5wE0SzEuGPYFcrj9xRczOztmmfLLtqJqLbrlUS/8VOwKqecm7Ve 0PHiQ04FGp8XKQzs4UluNgpN81bOdNCITPtgFa5RLuzlp4tVutMcXw== =jS8h -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Aug 18 08:09:56 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CF651A036A for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 08:09:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.311 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.311 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N-i6CVDgW4Vi for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 08:09:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 929331A0217 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 08:09:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6AAEBE38; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 16:09:51 +0100 (IST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8ott-a2c1u11; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 16:09:51 +0100 (IST) Received: from [134.226.36.180] (stephen-think.dsg.cs.tcd.ie [134.226.36.180]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9645CBE33; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 16:09:51 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1439910591; bh=wlBQKwcDtOziPPVUUfMl9ZPc4TAm73TyENZAvbRAFGw=; h=Date:From:To:CC:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=2bUOVa0ArYkMYsJPuf4W6AzbX2jdVwkGE5ewjwBLB9ueBVp3n9YihkGis2Bbr/pZk 2w45lzIgHsEVvdO8hiPIoo3HBWcZOLeIKc2ttS5Rj0LcAHfqFQ9wCWwsjM7uFzZdb2 yz7Z/DolOs6MFDOJX1ZvxxEAY1nqHGvhxbH5qC/k= Message-ID: <55D34ABF.4000904@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 16:09:51 +0100 From: Stephen Farrell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Richardson References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> <55CB2E24.3030604@cs.tcd.ie> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1E391@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CC78BF.20104@gmx.net> <2F014D30-692D-4592-AE45-45AF34396763@cisco.com> <55CD94D3.7060109@gmx.net> <29185.1439564839@sandelman.ca> <55D1FF83.4070507@bogus.com> <55D339E6.10803@cs.tcd.ie> <24008.1439910343@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <24008.1439910343@sandelman.ca> OpenPGP: id=D66EA7906F0B897FB2E97D582F3C8736805F8DA2; url= Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="PtIT5Tlc5SePNCG0GMI8UIuDrTBcpl6oD" Archived-At: Cc: "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , "Max Pritikin \(pritikin\)" , joel jaeggli , Kathleen Moriarty , Hannes Tschofenig , anima , Sheng Jiang Subject: Re: [Anima] who's interested? X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 15:09:54 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --PtIT5Tlc5SePNCG0GMI8UIuDrTBcpl6oD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 18/08/15 16:05, Michael Richardson wrote: > I'm not exactly sure I understand the question. The question is whether or not folks believe that there is some more or other work that needs to be done aside from that already chartered. "Work" here could either be co-ordination or might be new technical work that is not currently chartered. S. --PtIT5Tlc5SePNCG0GMI8UIuDrTBcpl6oD Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJV00q/AAoJEC88hzaAX42io+kH/2RBgcAoAUeHpqny72SidCsc 1okN56UiQ41ot76RBI6pr38OmGInaPTrtXaFgIO5NqYQaYceINJqOFlSGu5bSOrh 3imlUm3boxk4+ylktscJwYjjhcNa5iyJrCg89bJ2m1Rfck4tGkwbtDeijpeLDM4y 6CyBtUZ+14KjHGcp1TownLULe+62GiSpJm5om0f7q9TZF/3NRetty9XZIpjelCXP ONvFXb8NVR2qQb9ULzv/Ekt2IzDhsfBsKtEl14jJWki+wWn786IeBeNrfwggD9SR rIYqeBYuRynbT66ZBenaQfZSowHQmfDzfyMl+rsxjGf7ydLbMqRGNPtWLmg3kqQ= =soOk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --PtIT5Tlc5SePNCG0GMI8UIuDrTBcpl6oD-- From nobody Tue Aug 18 12:24:35 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 645921A1B76 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 12:24:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LsP5a0L_SODP for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 12:24:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5CC881A1C04 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 12:24:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 149DA2009E; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 15:42:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 70E3D63B10; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 15:24:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5788463AEC; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 15:24:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Stephen Farrell In-Reply-To: <55D34ABF.4000904@cs.tcd.ie> References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> <55CB2E24.3030604@cs.tcd.ie> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1E391@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CC78BF.20104@gmx.net> <2F014D30-692D-4592-AE45-45AF34396763@cisco.com> <55CD94D3.7060109@gmx.net> <29185.1439564839@sandelman.ca> <55D1FF83.4070507@bogus.com> <55D339E6.10803@cs.tcd.ie> <24008.1439910343@sandelman.ca> <55D34ABF.4000904@cs.tcd.ie> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 24.4.2 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Archived-At: Cc: Brian Haberman , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , "Max Pritikin \(pritikin\)" , "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , joel jaeggli , Kathleen Moriarty , Hannes Tschofenig , anima , Sheng Jiang Subject: Re: [Anima] who's interested? X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 19:24:35 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Stephen Farrell wrote: > On 18/08/15 16:05, Michael Richardson wrote: >> I'm not exactly sure I understand the question. > The question is whether or not folks believe that there > is some more or other work that needs to be done aside > from that already chartered. "Work" here could either be > co-ordination or might be new technical work that is not > currently chartered. My suggestion is that we make this a topic for the IoT directorate. I think it's slightly too soon to know what is missing. I think that content of certificates which are bound to names or IP addressses (I had an ILOM example, where mac address or asset tag would make sense) is something that would be nice. This has some relevance to ANIMA, but is not directly in scope. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBVdOGbICLcPvd0N1lAQIa4ggAgYy8pW9fpE5WsOBYDA2oFExM6boKzcUM 4tMI3DMtyQssp+llx9PY+Y0uY2NU4nXOOgv6c6DTglecql2F13wdIZI5X+WRDN2f qipUvQ4/qO0Z1vmNY6HtRzCrBGfdFGVmPmwQ5vovsN4avIdAQu6cha9zl1jV/HDI bdLfD4/z5YbbRKFyHTpYCR5v5zZGoTPIrhLKoLgylViEFJtCLtkksiEygEmAobNJ 5qfBVJVjKETMS4o0HdgaoQVqLyXsIIUeZ/0Gb2tUMuT7UEFkS/JePssMDzgPUmzz pSAMEZb/0AEtjOkII2mqJ5Ai24M4I53dpymctWDHZHrgU6BDEZCzvQ== =Ja5+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Aug 18 12:50:30 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83BEC1A9165 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 12:50:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.611 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.611 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pMDaWL8RekZ3 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 12:50:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED3291A916D for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 12:50:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46FC92009E for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 16:08:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 9643063B10; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 15:50:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7994763AEC for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 15:50:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: anima@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 24.4.2 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Archived-At: Subject: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 19:50:28 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain {intentionally not cross-posted to SUPA} While working on other things today (and being at home with a pink-eyed kid), I found the tab that was open to watch the IETF93 SUPA BOF. I also had saved ~80 emails from the SUPA list to read. I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match how we envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs. In particular, the model that is envisioned is far more SDN-like; that is with a uber-intelligent centralized command and control system that interprets SUPA Intents into things like Virtual Private Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various things like YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other data models) It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed to cross-AS boundaries, but it seems like they could easily do this. It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for SUPA to be able to implement policies, but that's an operator convenience. They could equally well use other (more expensive!) management networks. In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... I don't think anyone overstated the situation, but I think that the message that ANIMA Intents != SUPA Intents was too understated. Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) points on the list to IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo There was a SUPA telecon yesterday morning, but I had a nomcom call, so I missed it. It seems that there ought to be significant overlap, and yet I don't see it. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBVdOMfoCLcPvd0N1lAQIP+AgAtcYeiizEcfRHxs8kp2MxtsE8YgWucJho Gc8jtlkvPVnctPGL7uYLGPW51eOOGYqoRXCR8htKHWQNUqfPnEUqojhse7O+nTVN A3Z2Gb0PUwDQkVPMVnqDzJVbFsJTTifD8FaWmcaJzrmd80uOAK+BqlHi3VPwl8Id TMU5+7ILH/O3L7ZmKpEZ4uwmqkovSOES4n7p18N2H35n8oVoplWaGybF3ljUgNKf Tqjl3Lyit2zUQ4m48/jeb97WSlHRH5bAEuvBYx3xpyXlpepbddiBR4Ba8ZpeeEZO 2o09o4lLHGDcEH1PtfeqlxACz19XOWw56w0UlGKEojcRSQTcx1gqdg== =bAK3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Aug 18 13:12:52 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3F731A1AB2 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 13:12:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mBDMXUj-hs_E for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 13:12:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pd0-x235.google.com (mail-pd0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 240711A1BED for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 13:12:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pdbmi9 with SMTP id mi9so31116774pdb.3 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 13:12:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=66DYuDPmDvouB6SnU+GigV7a+m5c0aDoKKKRoU1tuZM=; b=k3OOjUqTO9+BfP+ZNfpnT1b4FtA6sMsHpOdly6JHzODiyUB+JAysffe9+OUQXr8+M3 g4BBAvVv/Svv4cs3wH8q7FwLO132emExOxbQR7pxLHOmWKmZJS2S5L8AwcDY5jCgO/Nf s/lO0+vbi4trLEdRHws7HugIX7kV87bG/JB18F39mVBdPc/W76qbU/OTic8TbWySzyJb xKrPUism8KDyxjXO7LA6W2m/9IlaCpNqmGuslNrKKdJndM2KgAV/GZKZ4/+fJI+QjG6P gxSf0INmZL8udPmSc9mf7kh/grNuKCc0UCpar+0a4kPYDl3cudVcxLPrHrYe7bkGSwAc MkHw== X-Received: by 10.70.94.194 with SMTP id de2mr16960362pdb.8.1439928767439; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 13:12:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:4fe0:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:4fe0:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id mw3sm19059739pdb.76.2015.08.18.13.12.44 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 18 Aug 2015 13:12:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <55D391BA.3000000@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 08:12:42 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Richardson , anima@ietf.org References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 20:12:50 -0000 On 19/08/2015 07:50, Michael Richardson wrote: > > {intentionally not cross-posted to SUPA} > > While working on other things today (and being at home with a pink-eyed kid), > I found the tab that was open to watch the IETF93 SUPA BOF. I didn't do that, but having looked at the SUPA minutes, I then looked at the IBNEMO documents, which make more sense to me than SUPA. However, both IBNEMO and SUPA are definitely in the top/down north/south configuration management tradition. > I also had saved ~80 emails from the SUPA list to read. > I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match how we > envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs. In particular, the model that > is envisioned is far more SDN-like; that is with a uber-intelligent > centralized command and control system that interprets SUPA Intents into > things like Virtual Private Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various > things like YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other data models) > > It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed to cross-AS > boundaries, but it seems like they could easily do this. > > It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for SUPA to be able to > implement policies, but that's an operator convenience. They could equally > well use other (more expensive!) management networks. > > In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... I don't think > anyone overstated the situation, but I think that the message that ANIMA > Intents != SUPA Intents was too understated. Agreed, judging by the documents. Anyway it seems clear that SUPA is not yet ready to get chartered. > Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) Well yes, but as I told him when he said that, retirement often doesn't work first time ;-). > points on the list to > IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo > > There was a SUPA telecon yesterday morning, but I had a nomcom call, > so I missed it. It seems that there ought to be significant overlap, > and yet I don't see it. I don't see much overlap with SUPA. If IBNEMO comes up with a good data model and syntax for expressing intent, we should consider using it. I guess one of the authors of draft-zhou-netmod-intent-nemo and draft-xia-sdnrg-nemo-language can advise us about that. But actually the Nemo intent language looks more specific than I expect Anima intent to be: compare with draft-du-anima-an-intent and https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-01#section-5.1 Brian From nobody Tue Aug 18 13:18:18 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FA711A88B2 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 13:18:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.311 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.311 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vKMyifNqzb_v for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 13:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 37F311A0161 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 13:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BD81BE9F; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 21:18:13 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lDNyXhtQk5Wn; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 21:18:12 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.87.48.73] (unknown [86.42.22.71]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E675CBE7B; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 21:18:11 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1439929092; bh=Yr6j8hHeGZ9/MHSA27TZuBkF1Q+UxHQ++LIhgNNSD1A=; h=Date:From:To:CC:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=NonjtJQFJcr+hmWBWzW7X8zxDyQFeYjVfdTHZSf/8xRnRv83PXld89/ndSGPKKOdd qa9AMWTlc+9MNnhl1UT6HobKDRN3+Efdyz/JK8+md4LfWqGEtF07O9yv5myvgiphuv jHcAffHessPlNcbZ5SXRNAZI4A6/zSasYeOV+T7w= Message-ID: <55D39300.6080300@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 21:18:08 +0100 From: Stephen Farrell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Richardson References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> <55CB2E24.3030604@cs.tcd.ie> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1E391@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CC78BF.20104@gmx.net> <2F014D30-692D-4592-AE45-45AF34396763@cisco.com> <55CD94D3.7060109@gmx.net> <29185.1439564839@sandelman.ca> <55D1FF83.4070507@bogus.com> <55D339E6.10803@cs.tcd.ie> <24008.1439910343@sandelman.ca> <55D34ABF.4000904@cs.tcd.ie> <20678.1439925869@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <20678.1439925869@sandelman.ca> OpenPGP: id=D66EA7906F0B897FB2E97D582F3C8736805F8DA2; url= Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="hgH6VQqhq6blMdceL2PLv7JSHE99L1TPg" Archived-At: Cc: Brian Haberman , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , "Max Pritikin \(pritikin\)" , "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , joel jaeggli , Kathleen Moriarty , Hannes Tschofenig , anima , Sheng Jiang Subject: Re: [Anima] who's interested? X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 20:18:17 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --hgH6VQqhq6blMdceL2PLv7JSHE99L1TPg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 18/08/15 20:24, Michael Richardson wrote: > My suggestion is that we make this a topic for the IoT directorate. > I think it's slightly too soon to know what is missing. Hmm. It's not clear to me that we're only dealing with a thing that's an IoT thing. S. --hgH6VQqhq6blMdceL2PLv7JSHE99L1TPg Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJV05MDAAoJEC88hzaAX42iQ8EH/iseMcBttCZwgsoH/SQQHXZo CzYjeGhTlCVQULP378Nagco1BRCr8i2xcwFmZvkO85UW1AGcUtsnGKOS+Ku+oICB kERRzwSk+R6jE/7R5q7cAd3eelvjZ5jkGFwk6w97Y06hTdaOl1aig4UKODqHUf5x c91oTIDtOkOcud8EHNRWV6i8nmn0NQKbMAWPF9o2qSR92ItV1Mg1VqZjrXGW2qLV w3oJHjpkefSrXftiGHwfhD/cgiuoNbCzL/J1AaVdbU84QkkKgcGqld8lPgncF75D utygK0+9pNXdU62OpSkdvjKp9JTBIKh4QRtlGAlkPCmEexkQUTZzJY2L4CRLn44= =wZJw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --hgH6VQqhq6blMdceL2PLv7JSHE99L1TPg-- From nobody Tue Aug 18 13:38:50 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44B281A910E for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 13:38:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AsXiy7tvlmpa for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 13:38:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x234.google.com (mail-pa0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D18921A9032 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 13:38:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pabyb7 with SMTP id yb7so140176830pab.0 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 13:38:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=1h9Etp0hdtgn1/9IB9M3m+5uF1BSupKAkNxykT7ZMIE=; b=Sfl6BsGfeLwTMuzTkDWXQlNknxwIl5wiuwVMLD/NraOjgk3EcyQe1VJrr259waUxfN WuUZUl3+5O0jZ2vKhlT0frIMRMeicqRNT25qndrNgB/d0E2LtocWV/A8QmBSXjcI3TZY qBNL4h8DDk9NosQLesx/nBgEBlxzVvfZiQrcJIfTyyShfD5QN1qCynw6T2xPLZoNDunr IxkZZPKZAYRxsBFQNoixr0q0BoIeVWNY0dK0PEwgn5QXmWFxgsmut0q5dAO5dfs6ehzT DxVxFHi9DrRTvieOcMf9ZNy+fCNaXur9o0BPCBjwDbfiiyEVJ3hQ9388H6rCzu3/Wb/m 45gA== X-Received: by 10.68.95.68 with SMTP id di4mr17198526pbb.36.1439930327440; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 13:38:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:4fe0:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:4fe0:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r9sm19095643pds.83.2015.08.18.13.38.41 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 18 Aug 2015 13:38:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <55D397D4.7070008@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 08:38:44 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephen Farrell , Michael Richardson References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> <55CB2E24.3030604@cs.tcd.ie> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1E391@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CC78BF.20104@gmx.net> <2F014D30-692D-4592-AE45-45AF34396763@cisco.com> <55CD94D3.7060109@gmx.net> <29185.1439564839@sandelman.ca> <55D1FF83.4070507@bogus.com> <55D339E6.10803@cs.tcd.ie> <24008.1439910343@sandelman.ca> <55D34ABF.4000904@cs.tcd.ie> <20678.1439925869@sandelman.ca> <55D39300.6080300@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <55D39300.6080300@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: Brian Haberman , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , "Max Pritikin \(pritikin\)" , "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , joel jaeggli , Kathleen Moriarty , Hannes Tschofenig , anima , Sheng Jiang Subject: Re: [Anima] who's interested? X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 20:38:49 -0000 The scope of devices that anima-bootstrapping considers is certainly not limited to IoT. I assume that is also true for netconf-zerotouch. Regards Brian On 19/08/2015 08:18, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > > On 18/08/15 20:24, Michael Richardson wrote: >> My suggestion is that we make this a topic for the IoT directorate. >> I think it's slightly too soon to know what is missing. > > Hmm. It's not clear to me that we're only dealing with a thing > that's an IoT thing. > > S. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > From nobody Wed Aug 19 01:57:12 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 128EB1A875E for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 01:57:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5lCQkLcoKDBa for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 01:57:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p-us1-iereast-outbound.us1.avaya.com (p-us1-iereast-outbound.us1.avaya.com [135.11.29.13]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B51461A6EF0 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 01:57:09 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A2D9BAA3Q8ZV/yYyC4dbGQEBglQsgT0GqW4GmzwCgSY7EQEBAQEBAQGBCoQjAQEBAQIBEihEBwQCAQgNCAEMFAkHMhQRAgQBEggaiAQIAax1oDoBAQEBAQEEAQEBAQEBAQEBGYYfhTKENwEBHziDGIEUBZULAY4rhzCNHoNmFw+DfW+BDjqBBAEBAQ X-IPAS-Result: A2D9BAA3Q8ZV/yYyC4dbGQEBglQsgT0GqW4GmzwCgSY7EQEBAQEBAQGBCoQjAQEBAQIBEihEBwQCAQgNCAEMFAkHMhQRAgQBEggaiAQIAax1oDoBAQEBAQEEAQEBAQEBAQEBGYYfhTKENwEBHziDGIEUBZULAY4rhzCNHoNmFw+DfW+BDjqBBAEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.15,634,1432612800"; d="scan'208";a="137065584" Received: from unknown (HELO p-us1-erheast-smtpauth.us1.avaya.com) ([135.11.50.38]) by p-us1-iereast-outbound.us1.avaya.com with ESMTP; 19 Aug 2015 04:57:08 -0400 X-OutboundMail_SMTP: 1 Received: from unknown (HELO AZ-FFEXHC04.global.avaya.com) ([135.64.58.14]) by p-us1-erheast-out.us1.avaya.com with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-SHA; 19 Aug 2015 04:57:08 -0400 Received: from AZ-FFEXMB04.global.avaya.com ([fe80::6db7:b0af:8480:c126]) by AZ-FFEXHC04.global.avaya.com ([135.64.58.14]) with mapi id 14.03.0174.001; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 10:57:07 +0200 From: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" To: Brian E Carpenter , Michael Richardson , "anima@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents Thread-Index: AQHQ2e8kEqDfyqHlQ0iAG8suzDVi854SDxQAgAD0HAA= Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 08:57:06 +0000 Message-ID: <9904FB1B0159DA42B0B887B7FA8119CA5CAFEF33@AZ-FFEXMB04.global.avaya.com> References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> <55D391BA.3000000@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <55D391BA.3000000@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.64.58.47] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 08:57:11 -0000 Hi Brian, > -----Original Message----- > From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E > Carpenter > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2015 11:13 PM > To: Michael Richardson; anima@ietf.org .... > > > > In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... I don't think > > anyone overstated the situation, but I think that the message that > > ANIMA Intents !=3D SUPA Intents was too understated. >=20 > Agreed, judging by the documents=20 Actually the SUPA BOF minutes (draft minutes at this point) recorded:=20 ---- * Jabber question, Laurent: gap analysis relative to the ANIMA activity? = Intent is being used there - similar to what is being described here. * Anima chair - Sheng Jiang: intent not yet in the charter. Thinks it is q= uite different - no overlap * John explained this with a motivating example. ---- The difference between ANIMA Intents and SUPA Intents (they are called decl= arative policies there) was clearly expressed by both the ANIMA chair and b= y John Strassner who authored the SUPA policy IM document. Do you believe t= hat this is not clearly enough expressed in the minutes, or maybe you refer= other documents?=20 > Anyway it seems clear that SUPA is not > yet ready to get chartered. > Your input on the SUPA readiness or not is welcome on the SUPA mail list.=20 Thanks and Regards, Dan (SUPA BOF co-chair) From nobody Wed Aug 19 08:40:22 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63B241A0108 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 08:40:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.611 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.611 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aLV6Iv3jS9DP for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 08:40:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 763A51B2AA9 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 08:40:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AE9920098; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 11:58:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 11AC563B10; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 11:40:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB2E863AEC; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 11:40:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Stephen Farrell In-Reply-To: <55D39300.6080300@cs.tcd.ie> References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> <55CB2E24.3030604@cs.tcd.ie> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1E391@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CC78BF.20104@gmx.net> <2F014D30-692D-4592-AE45-45AF34396763@cisco.com> <55CD94D3.7060109@gmx.net> <29185.1439564839@sandelman.ca> <55D1FF83.4070507@bogus.com> <55D339E6.10803@cs.tcd.ie> <24008.1439910343@sandelman.ca> <55D34ABF.4000904@cs.tcd.ie> <20678.1439925869@sandelman.ca> <55D39300.6080300@cs.tcd.ie> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 24.4.2 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Archived-At: Cc: Brian Haberman , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , "Max Pritikin \(pritikin\)" , "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , joel jaeggli , Kathleen Moriarty , Hannes Tschofenig , anima , Sheng Jiang Subject: Re: [Anima] who's interested? X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 15:40:21 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Stephen Farrell wrote: >> My suggestion is that we make this a topic for the IoT directorate. >> I think it's slightly too soon to know what is missing. > Hmm. It's not clear to me that we're only dealing with a thing > that's an IoT thing. I agree; but I don't know what other thing there is yet. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBVdSjXoCLcPvd0N1lAQIH9Qf/f5NSm2wvf6MbY8/XlDYcWDxPAb2kjzDY trfFwl3q5JbC5lzBmQ/qrmVdonXAJoZOIpua19a2hl1fONq+9hZR5XrdL7tEKj5b WNEBAezjPbr6UiT0jU0xCiblTFDF4p1vH9ihElDYfR7yNE1aImvSpu3ejNhy1OAZ grNubfMX5e89bfvp4RFSwVT8pgeMCL1Z5nVCqrIziYRpFJoTr8hbEZeugqOimpkO 3kvGM9bLfx8VtLsw1rJNlDu3tvx63QEm7VM7eM+UOrS3Ny0OzfYSjBaeLxDHyN7z eRasJbkUi/PwQRkNrIClFVAOp0V5xxnB3iR3pcV1pe778AGNukYyZw== =tL3O -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Aug 19 08:55:11 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B54DC1A8AA9 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 08:55:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.75 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.75 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9rbyKa6kmAB3 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 08:55:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-x22a.google.com (mail-lb0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 39EB41A0AC8 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 08:55:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lbbpu9 with SMTP id pu9so6204790lbb.3 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 08:55:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=OEaQr9RWyhJC76BZepk/GBVshbNQJOBVrKyhbv8y2ro=; b=VBiwb7mH+KbMd/WKgYCZhADfCrtY+WM1kBlA2nvdnVBLLtGOJgWUB9dt2OTeQQgSGJ QQ0kCW42joNENv4tiXGwUg4qTIIkQ4mgjYL6UVjrt1i1KXG0nfuZBNZy9CEA9DW+dxDZ vEh55UKXCLxqA1HsVxdT97ocMl/fmF7cV3hXu8H44r6DDrjhCiEiea/DEuRJnAX6VlDs v5NWhjMx9LqOgb95uXjQN8pmj5aZsxh60iIvp9s2Mrh0MhWDYK1CE6lnzaEFAuLiPh9a TMVwW6ElSPkQpYyDjdOWQrYmsgpFiDnWhfGR39LtZ4H2tjvJQSLQ/S1SWuZtA4oq03ak 4rxA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.6.65 with SMTP id y1mr12114355lay.58.1439999706666; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 08:55:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.59.46 with HTTP; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 08:55:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9288.1439998817@sandelman.ca> References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> <55CB2E24.3030604@cs.tcd.ie> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1E391@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CC78BF.20104@gmx.net> <2F014D30-692D-4592-AE45-45AF34396763@cisco.com> <55CD94D3.7060109@gmx.net> <29185.1439564839@sandelman.ca> <55D1FF83.4070507@bogus.com> <55D339E6.10803@cs.tcd.ie> <24008.1439910343@sandelman.ca> <55D34ABF.4000904@cs.tcd.ie> <20678.1439925869@sandelman.ca> <55D39300.6080300@cs.tcd.ie> <9288.1439998817@sandelman.ca> Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 10:55:06 -0500 Message-ID: From: Behcet Sarikaya To: Michael Richardson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: Brian Haberman , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , "Max Pritikin \(pritikin\)" , "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , joel jaeggli , Kathleen Moriarty , Sheng Jiang , Hannes Tschofenig , anima , Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [Anima] who's interested? X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: sarikaya@ieee.org List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 15:55:09 -0000 Hi Steve, On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 10:40 AM, Michael Richardson wrote: > > Stephen Farrell wrote: > >> My suggestion is that we make this a topic for the IoT directorate. > >> I think it's slightly too soon to know what is missing. > > > Hmm. It's not clear to me that we're only dealing with a thing > > that's an IoT thing. > > I agree; but I don't know what other thing there is yet. > When we say that it should be done in IoT directorate or in IoT WGs not in security area, it is not out of disrespect to the security area. We love security area, they are doing great things. But the idea here is what needs to be done is using existing security mechanisms/protocols to come up with a solution to an IoT problem. An example is about using HIP-DEX http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ohba-6lo-mle-hip-dex-00.txt which has been accepted to become a WG draft in 6lo. Regards, Behcet > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > From nobody Wed Aug 19 09:07:25 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C5041B2AE1 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 09:07:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.311 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.311 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IbRepLItgjjC for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 09:07:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 84DCD1B2AD8 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 09:07:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91562BE5D; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 17:07:13 +0100 (IST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OmNcOrKBYT9D; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 17:07:13 +0100 (IST) Received: from [134.226.36.180] (stephen-think.dsg.cs.tcd.ie [134.226.36.180]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5549DBE3F; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 17:07:13 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1440000433; bh=fcHzuuNY2RKVpvvrWQGd6+H79AO+VzM9XBx84QvV/hM=; h=Date:From:To:CC:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=j0sQmnFyDAjzYdJbNfeQG4DY07JfAQ7Lrv7h62ynkfBnJOCjt0RINMkErzYQViP+F gwCjKWwCpgQ/i1PIBYATG678IVDJQk8uhFE4RNnXFQFfiuipp3JhZBRzaRavyvwbLs rEp01Z5N29BStvFCTdKLO8K/IL5xJsbq/S5hwQV4= Message-ID: <55D4A9B1.4080500@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 17:07:13 +0100 From: Stephen Farrell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sarikaya@ieee.org, Michael Richardson References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> <55CB2E24.3030604@cs.tcd.ie> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1E391@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CC78BF.20104@gmx.net> <2F014D30-692D-4592-AE45-45AF34396763@cisco.com> <55CD94D3.7060109@gmx.net> <29185.1439564839@sandelman.ca> <55D1FF83.4070507@bogus.com> <55D339E6.10803@cs.tcd.ie> <24008.1439910343@sandelman.ca> <55D34ABF.4000904@cs.tcd.ie> <20678.1439925869@sandelman.ca> <55D39300.6080300@cs.tcd.ie> <9288.1439998817@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: OpenPGP: id=D66EA7906F0B897FB2E97D582F3C8736805F8DA2; url= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: Brian Haberman , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , "Max Pritikin \(pritikin\)" , "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , joel jaeggli , Kathleen Moriarty , Hannes Tschofenig , anima , Sheng Jiang Subject: Re: [Anima] who's interested? X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 16:07:25 -0000 On 19/08/15 16:55, Behcet Sarikaya wrote: > Hi Steve, > > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 10:40 AM, Michael Richardson > wrote: >> >> Stephen Farrell wrote: >> >> My suggestion is that we make this a topic for the IoT directorate. >> >> I think it's slightly too soon to know what is missing. >> >> > Hmm. It's not clear to me that we're only dealing with a thing >> > that's an IoT thing. >> >> I agree; but I don't know what other thing there is yet. >> > > When we say that it should be done in IoT directorate or in IoT WGs > not in security area, it is not out of disrespect to the security > area. We love security area, they are doing great things. I don't much care in what area work gets done when work gets done well. And I'm sure most sensible folks think the same. > > But the idea here is what needs to be done is using existing security > mechanisms/protocols to come up with a solution to an IoT problem. Again, it is not clear to me that everyone here is talking about something that can fairly be described as an "IoT problem." Part of the reason I sent a mail is to see who's interested in helping figure that out. So far, btw, I have gotten zero off list answers. Which is interesting given the amount of mail I've seen going by on this topic. > An > example is about using HIP-DEX > > http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ohba-6lo-mle-hip-dex-00.txt which has > been accepted to become a WG draft in 6lo. Ah, yet another solution. Isn't that an even better support for the argument that we ought try get the folks proposing such solutions in different bits of the IETF to chat with one another and with other interested parties? Cheers, S. > > Regards, > > Behcet > > >> -- >> Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works >> -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Anima mailing list >> Anima@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >> From nobody Wed Aug 19 13:59:48 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBE4B1B2AF1 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 13:59:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pHXlGjF2C7bS for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 13:59:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x236.google.com (mail-ig0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 284741B2AE2 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 13:59:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by igui7 with SMTP id i7so117858072igu.1 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 13:59:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=hKw4bJQeYDNnDIvheNvxs6c49fpJkrdY2sMPqkvZL88=; b=OzAeUlhcAYnlpQExb7tQtHILunu5J2s9JhhvGG8mgNDElExK+8eFObLEZ+Nnb+m7Q7 TA83EHCjlKSDjVAJ2eq32yGYZx7RySqq0hmlH9ff2rcQExMSgCw4Z9HJJAe0FWuLUJx3 xHNfviHBZhMVf58zEpVRul27W5ezkcMhAOjt/7HhcusQPZ8twHj136Kq2lYMDzXuPvql rplMfatJ2p0ktSaZfPG7ZkLuTCU/dfu2KWYUSTZY87LyadS9NXa/ZjgFI9vizsfD0ZUz g9OFb3JqYQ7ZOECk8nMWRnL5EjkM1XUAvjsDGiXT14eL6oHkhzwwiySKXe00pCEGILZ9 Q67w== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.70.34 with SMTP id j2mr33517382igu.54.1440017983423; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 13:59:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.79.107.196 with HTTP; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 13:59:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 13:59:43 -0700 Message-ID: From: John Strassner To: Michael Richardson , John Strassner Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b3a9be65f6ecb051db05042 Archived-At: Cc: Anima WG Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 20:59:48 -0000 --047d7b3a9be65f6ecb051db05042 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi Michael, I've been involved in SUPA, but also in ANIMA; here is my perspective: > I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match > how we envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs. I'm not sure what is envisioned with intent in ANIMA; I have previously posted that I don't think that there is enough detail on what intent is and what it is supposed to do in ANIMA. > In particular, the model that is envisioned is far more SDN-like; > that is with a uber-intelligent centralized command and control > system that interprets SUPA Intents into things like Virtual Private > Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various things like > YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other > data models) I'm personally not a big SDN fan for a number of reasons, and at least in the I-Ds that I've written for SUPA, that is far from the vision that I have had. But this is just my opinion; others may differ. SUPA defines an information model (i.e., a model that is independent of language, protocol, and repository) that consists of three pieces: 1) generic policy concepts (e.g., the target of a policy, and how policy is represented and structured) 2) an imperative model (i.e., event-condition-action) that is derived from (1) 3) a declarative model (i.e., propositional or first order logic) that is also derived from (1) This structure enables sets of policies to be defined, where a declarative policy could then trigger the evaluation of declarative and/or imperative policies, and vice-versa. I **think** that in ANIMA, the assumption has been that intent should be declarative in nature. Please correct me if I am wrong. Please also realize that SUPA is both more than this, and models declarative policy as formal logic. This has a large number of advantages, especially for autonomics; please let me know if these are not obvious. > It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed > to cross-AS boundaries, but it seems like they could easily > do this. Indeed, they are. In my policy work, there is the concept of a policy domain, which is any domain whose entities are governed by a common set of policies. So the concept is actually broader than just ASs. > It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for > SUPA to be able to implement policies, but that's an > operator convenience. They could equally well use other > (more expensive!) management networks. Michael Behringer and I (and others, but I'm old so I have now forgotten who, sorry!) talked about this at IETF92. FOCALE (my autonomic architecture) chose the latter (mainly because ACP did not exist!) and I reflected that I wished I had thought of doing something like ACP. I feel that this would have made FOCALE more powerful and robust. > In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... > I don't think anyone overstated the situation, but I think > that the message that ANIMA Intents != SUPA Intents > was too understated. I have not seen ANIMA intent formally defined. I think it would be interesting to determine first, if ANIMA intent should use declarative logic or not (besides SUPA, ONF, OpenStack Congress, and to an extent, ODL GBP all use declarative logic), and second, if ANIMA intent is not going to use declarative logic, then why not? > Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) points > on the list to > IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo Note that NEMO says that they are defining a declarative policy, but in reality, NEMO implements this with imperative (i.e., condition-action) constructs. > It seems that there ought to be significant overlap, and > yet I don't see it. IF ANIMA intent decides to use declarative logic or imperative logic (in the form of event-condition-action), then I would hope that the two indeed overlap. However, until ANIMA formally defines what intent is, it is impossible to say. regards, John On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 12:50 PM, Michael Richardson wrote: > > {intentionally not cross-posted to SUPA} > > While working on other things today (and being at home with a pink-eyed > kid), > I found the tab that was open to watch the IETF93 SUPA BOF. > > I also had saved ~80 emails from the SUPA list to read. > I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match how we > envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs. In particular, the model that > is envisioned is far more SDN-like; that is with a uber-intelligent > centralized command and control system that interprets SUPA Intents into > things like Virtual Private Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various > things like YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other data models) > > It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed to cross-AS > boundaries, but it seems like they could easily do this. > > It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for SUPA to be able to > implement policies, but that's an operator convenience. They could equally > well use other (more expensive!) management networks. > > In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... I don't think > anyone overstated the situation, but I think that the message that ANIMA > Intents != SUPA Intents was too understated. > > Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) points on the list to > IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo > > There was a SUPA telecon yesterday morning, but I had a nomcom call, > so I missed it. It seems that there ought to be significant overlap, > and yet I don't see it. > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > > -- regards, John --047d7b3a9be65f6ecb051db05042 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Michael,

I've been in= volved in SUPA, but also in ANIMA; here is my perspective:

&g= t; I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match
>=C2=A0how we envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs.
<jcs>
I'm not sure what is envisioned with = intent in ANIMA; I have
previously posted that I don't think = that there is enough
detail on what intent is and what it is supp= osed to do in ANIMA.
</jcs>

> I= n particular, the model that is envisioned is far more SDN-like;
= >=C2=A0that is with a uber-intelligent centralized command and control
>=C2=A0system that interprets SUPA Intents into things like Vir= tual Private
> Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various thi= ngs like
> YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other<= /div>
> data models)

<jcs>
= I'm personally not a big SDN fan for a number of reasons, and at
<= div>least in the I-Ds that I've written for SUPA, that is far=C2=A0from= the
vision that I have had. But this is just my opinion; others = may differ.

SUPA defines an information model (i.e= ., a model that is
independent of=C2=A0language, protocol, and r= epository) that consists
of three pieces:

=C2=A0=C2=A0 1) generic policy concepts (e.g., the target of a policy, an= d
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 how policy is represented = and structured)
=C2=A0=C2=A0 2)=C2=A0an imperative model (i.e., e= vent-condition-action) that is
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 derived from (1)
=C2=A0=C2=A0 3) a declarative model (i.e., p= ropositional=C2=A0or first order logic)
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 that is also derived from (1)

This st= ructure enables sets of policies to be defined, where a
declarati= ve policy could=C2=A0then trigger the evaluation of
declarative = and/or imperative policies, and vice-versa.

I **th= ink** that in ANIMA, the assumption has been that intent
should b= e=C2=A0declarative in nature. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Pl= ease also=C2=A0realize that SUPA is both more than this, and
mode= ls declarative policy as formal=C2=A0logic. This has a large
numb= er of advantages, especially for autonomics; please let
me know i= f these are not obvious.
</jcs>

>=C2=A0It isn'= ;t clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed
>=C2= =A0to cross-AS boundaries, but it seems like they could easily
&= gt; do this.

<jcs>
Indeed, they ar= e. In my policy work, there is the concept of a
policy domain, wh= ich is any domain whose entities=C2=A0are
governed by a common se= t of policies. So the concept is
actually broader than just ASs.<= /div>
</jcs>

>=C2=A0It seems like the ANIMA ACP is crit= ically important for
> SUPA to be able to implement policies,= but that's an
> operator convenience.=C2=A0 They could e= qually well use other
>=C2=A0(more expensive!) management netw= orks.

<jcs>
Michael Behringer and = I=C2=A0(and others, but I'm old so I have
now forgotten who, = sorry!) talked about this at=C2=A0IETF92.
FOCALE (my autonomic ar= chitecture) chose the latter
(mainly because ACP did not exist!) = and I reflected that=C2=A0I
wished I had thought of doing somethi= ng like ACP. I feel
that this would have made FOCALE more powerfu= l and
robust.
</jcs>

>=C2=A0In the rec= ording, I heard various things about ANIMA...
>=C2=A0I don'= ;t think anyone overstated the situation, but I think
>=C2=A0t= hat the message that ANIMA Intents !=3D SUPA Intents
>=C2=A0wa= s too understated.

<jcs>
I have no= t seen ANIMA intent formally defined. I think it
would be interes= ting to=C2=A0determine first, if ANIMA intent
should use declarat= ive logic or=C2=A0not (besides SUPA,
ONF,=C2=A0OpenStack Congres= s, and to an extent, ODL GBP
all use declarative logic), and seco= nd, if=C2=A0ANIMA intent
is not going to use=C2=A0declarative log= ic, then why not?
</jcs>

>=C2=A0Bert Wijnen (didn= 't he declare he was retired?) points
>=C2=A0on the list t= o
>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0IBNEMO - https://www.ie= tf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo

<jcs>
Note that NEMO says that they are=C2=A0defining a declarative
<= div>policy, but in reality, NEMO implements this with imperative
= (i.e., condition-action) constructs.
</jcs>

&= gt; It seems that there ought to be significant overlap,=C2=A0and
> yet I don't see it.

<jcs>
IF ANIMA intent decides to use declarative logic or
imperativ= e logic (in the form of event-condition-action), then I
would hop= e that the two indeed overlap. However, until
ANIMA formally defi= nes what intent is, it is impossible to say.
</jcs>

regards,
John


On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at = 12:50 PM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wro= te:

{intentionally not cross-posted to SUPA}

While working on other things today (and being at home with a pink-eyed kid= ),
I found the tab that was open to watch the IETF93 SUPA BOF.

I also had saved ~80 emails from the SUPA list to read.
I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match how we
envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs.=C2=A0 In particular, the model th= at
is envisioned is far more SDN-like; that is with a uber-intelligent
centralized command and control system that interprets SUPA Intents into things like Virtual Private Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various
things like YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other data models)<= br>
It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed to cross-= AS
boundaries, but it seems like they could easily do this.

It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for SUPA to be able to<= br> implement policies, but that's an operator convenience.=C2=A0 They coul= d equally
well use other (more expensive!) management networks.

In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... I don't think anyone overstated the situation, but I think that the message that ANIMA Intents !=3D SUPA Intents was too understated.

Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) points on the list to =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailma= n/listinfo/ibnemo

There was a SUPA telecon yesterday morning, but I had a nomcom call,
so I missed it.=C2=A0 It seems that there ought to be significant overlap,<= br> and yet I don't see it.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@= sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
=C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-




_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima




--
regards,
John
--047d7b3a9be65f6ecb051db05042-- From nobody Wed Aug 19 14:14:04 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D9881A8AC3 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 14:14:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fCcUv28yEsST for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 14:14:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x22a.google.com (mail-io0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 92D7A1A9027 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 14:14:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by iodv127 with SMTP id v127so24325734iod.3 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 14:14:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=anX/k8lWAGa250840EG34mxG8rpthngcTZxD/7DtwtE=; b=wIP4UChUITOmXtHzzcpMmqzhanjYITzYueOwzyHqjtv5lp+I48ryTQnjJYkzBUaolQ OA5YdX/TENxokLiDOYzb4tCuh59ZncmR5cVUmQrHfXbqcGUwFU20QW61OJQk1QcBb0dI YD43CqxkPHW7sVEgxnkl2w0mXR7gBu03sZsR5U+dSPv2zXK8JfgJQve74OWeBy/eF2mH /paRWz884DiMw0T0YPK+VBYqT2QKJYonnq77v0T34wc9wSmZpN2gN8Vy2rutrWT+Z6Ry 3x6wQKcggyPOvQqEbCC/LlSMeDZeAPIrSu94BfDEIaUOCq/PXeI639RireB7UN8EnT3x RLjw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.169.201 with SMTP id f70mr14281042ioj.73.1440018840027; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 14:14:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.79.107.196 with HTTP; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 14:13:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <55D391BA.3000000@gmail.com> References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> <55D391BA.3000000@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 14:13:59 -0700 Message-ID: From: John Strassner To: Brian E Carpenter , John Strassner Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114279b46e0881051db08329 Archived-At: Cc: Michael Richardson , Anima WG Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 21:14:03 -0000 --001a114279b46e0881051db08329 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi Brian, > I didn't do that, but having looked at the SUPA minutes, I then > looked at the IBNEMO documents, which make more sense to > me than SUPA. I'd like to know why. This could actually help both SUPA and NEMO. > However, both IBNEMO and SUPA are definitely in the top/down > north/south configuration management tradition. As opposed to what? > I don't see much overlap with SUPA. I'd like to know why. Is this because you don't envision using ECA or logic rules, or some other reason? > But actually the Nemo intent language looks more specific > than I expect Anima intent to be: compare with > draft-du-anima-an-intent and > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-01#section-5.1 Please see my earlier reply to Michael Richardson. One could argue that this example is not "intent" as defined by ONF, ODL GBP, OpenStack Congress, or SUPA's declarative logic (though SUPA's ECA policy rule could easily express this). This is because in other declarative designs, those SDOs have decided that intent should NOT specify low-level parameters like IP addresses or port numbers or DSCPs. That of course doesn't mean that ANIMA couldn't do this, but it would mean that ANIMA's intent model diverges from the industry. This also clearly influences the underlying data model that you choose. > Brian regards, John On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 1:12 PM, Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > On 19/08/2015 07:50, Michael Richardson wrote: > > > > {intentionally not cross-posted to SUPA} > > > > While working on other things today (and being at home with a pink-eyed > kid), > > I found the tab that was open to watch the IETF93 SUPA BOF. > > I didn't do that, but having looked at the SUPA minutes, I then looked > at the IBNEMO documents, which make more sense to me than SUPA. > However, both IBNEMO and SUPA are definitely in the top/down north/south > configuration management tradition. > > > I also had saved ~80 emails from the SUPA list to read. > > I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match how we > > envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs. In particular, the model that > > is envisioned is far more SDN-like; that is with a uber-intelligent > > centralized command and control system that interprets SUPA Intents into > > things like Virtual Private Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various > > things like YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other data > models) > > > > It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed to cross-AS > > boundaries, but it seems like they could easily do this. > > > > It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for SUPA to be able > to > > implement policies, but that's an operator convenience. They could > equally > > well use other (more expensive!) management networks. > > > > In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... I don't think > > anyone overstated the situation, but I think that the message that ANIMA > > Intents != SUPA Intents was too understated. > > Agreed, judging by the documents. Anyway it seems clear that SUPA is > not yet ready to get chartered. > > > Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) > > Well yes, but as I told him when he said that, retirement often > doesn't work first time ;-). > > > points on the list to > > IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo > > > > There was a SUPA telecon yesterday morning, but I had a nomcom call, > > so I missed it. It seems that there ought to be significant overlap, > > and yet I don't see it. > > I don't see much overlap with SUPA. > > If IBNEMO comes up with a good data model and syntax for expressing > intent, we should consider using it. I guess one of the authors of > draft-zhou-netmod-intent-nemo and draft-xia-sdnrg-nemo-language > can advise us about that. But actually the Nemo intent language looks > more specific than I expect Anima intent to be: compare with > draft-du-anima-an-intent and > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-01#section-5.1 > > Brian > > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > -- regards, John --001a114279b46e0881051db08329 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Brian,

> I didn't = do that, but having looked at the SUPA minutes, I then
>=C2=A0= looked at the IBNEMO documents, which make more sense to
>=C2= =A0me than SUPA.

<jcs>
I'd lik= e to know why. This could actually help both SUPA and NEMO.
</= jcs>

>=C2=A0However, both IBNEMO and SUPA are definitel= y in the top/down
>=C2=A0north/south configuration management = tradition.

<jcs>
As opposed to wha= t?
</jcs>

>=C2=A0I don't see much overlap wit= h SUPA.

<jcs>
I'd like to= know why. Is this because you don't envision using ECA
or lo= gic rules, or some other reason?
</jcs>

>= =C2=A0But actually the Nemo intent language looks more specific
&= gt; than I expect Anima intent to be: compare with
> draft-du-anima-= an-intent and
> = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-01#section-= 5.1

<jcs>
Please see my ea= rlier reply to Michael Richardson.
One could argue that this exam= ple is not "intent" as defined by ONF,
ODL GBP, OpenSta= ck Congress, or SUPA's declarative logic
(though SUPA's = ECA policy rule could easily express this). This is
because in ot= her declarative designs, those SDOs have decided
that intent shou= ld NOT specify low-level parameters like IP
addresses or port num= bers or DSCPs. That of course doesn't
mean that ANIMA couldn= 't do this, but it would mean that ANIMA's
intent model d= iverges from the industry.

This also clearly influ= ences the underlying data model that you choose.
</jcs>


>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Brian

regards,
John

On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 1:12 PM, Brian E= Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
On 19/08/2015 07:50, Michael Richardson wro= te:
>
> {intentionally not cross-posted to SUPA}
>
> While working on other things today (and being at home with a pink-eye= d kid),
> I found the tab that was open to watch the IETF93 SUPA BOF.

I didn't do that, but having looked at the SUPA minutes, I then looked<= br> at the IBNEMO documents, which make more sense to me than SUPA.
However, both IBNEMO and SUPA are definitely in the top/down north/south configuration management tradition.

> I also had saved ~80 emails from the SUPA list to read.
> I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match how w= e
> envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs.=C2=A0 In particular, the mod= el that
> is envisioned is far more SDN-like; that is with a uber-intelligent > centralized command and control system that interprets SUPA Intents in= to
> things like Virtual Private Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via variou= s
> things like YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other data mod= els)
>
> It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed to c= ross-AS
> boundaries, but it seems like they could easily do this.
>
> It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for SUPA to be abl= e to
> implement policies, but that's an operator convenience.=C2=A0 They= could equally
> well use other (more expensive!) management networks.
>
> In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... I don't th= ink
> anyone overstated the situation, but I think that the message that ANI= MA
> Intents !=3D SUPA Intents was too understated.

Agreed, judging by the documents. Anyway it seems clear that SUPA is
not yet ready to get chartered.

> Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?)

Well yes, but as I told him when he said that, retirement often
doesn't work first time ;-).

> points on the list to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/m= ailman/listinfo/ibnemo
>
> There was a SUPA telecon yesterday morning, but I had a nomcom call, > so I missed it.=C2=A0 It seems that there ought to be significant over= lap,
> and yet I don't see it.

I don't see much overlap with SUPA.

If IBNEMO comes up with a good data model and syntax for expressing
intent, we should consider using it. I guess one of the authors of
draft-zhou-netmod-intent-nemo and draft-xia-sdnrg-nemo-language
can advise us about that. But actually the Nemo intent language looks
more specific than I expect Anima intent to be: compare with
draft-du-anima-an-intent and
https://tools.ietf.org= /html/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-01#section-5.1

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian

_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima



--
regards,
John
--001a114279b46e0881051db08329-- From nobody Wed Aug 19 17:23:12 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 244ED1A8A7F for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 17:23:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AqrDd9k5eAiT for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 17:23:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-4.cisco.com (alln-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.142.91]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AD90E1A8A7E for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 17:23:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=16718; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1440030188; x=1441239788; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:reply-to:mime-version; bh=VmS7TRe9VejbjzwfoT9EFk1VU38wbu0PMzYprNcFfvI=; b=NQlcloZtnMjXrPWAslNAyeuOm5VqvE56ZPDuBAK6OvxGk+GIrGxIRGJU WAdiyiXyCPhOYbQqTECElir3yv/rBXetd091b3EvkLspyxs/Z1Q8DVw2r X1jxK6QntNZrff8zbtE0jWW4D52HbYm2Fux/DqQXPCQj+V1h9peofkfC7 4=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0AMBQC0HdVV/4oNJK1dgk5NVGm9coFtAQmCQ4JuSgKBPzkTAQEBAQEBAYEKhCQBAQMBAQEBawsFCwIBCA4EDx4HDxIGCw4GAw4CBAENBYgZAwoIDb9ViU0NhVcBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQETBItTgk+CNwQHhCwFhWwJhmuFNIMQAYdvgxCBbYFKhCyDGolqhzcmgg4FF4FTcYJMAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.15,713,1432598400"; d="scan'208,217";a="180203297" Received: from alln-core-5.cisco.com ([173.36.13.138]) by alln-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 20 Aug 2015 00:22:53 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-006.cisco.com (xch-aln-006.cisco.com [173.36.7.16]) by alln-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t7K0Mqh9002848 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 20 Aug 2015 00:22:52 GMT Received: from xch-aln-006.cisco.com (173.36.7.16) by XCH-ALN-006.cisco.com (173.36.7.16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 19:22:51 -0500 Received: from xhc-rcd-x08.cisco.com (173.37.183.82) by xch-aln-006.cisco.com (173.36.7.16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 19:22:51 -0500 Received: from xmb-rcd-x15.cisco.com ([169.254.5.6]) by xhc-rcd-x08.cisco.com ([173.37.183.82]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 19:22:51 -0500 From: "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" To: John Strassner , Michael Richardson Thread-Topic: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents Thread-Index: AQHQ2e8zN+aJwuxKG0eoG8o+HUFyNZ4UI+SA///k76g= Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 00:22:50 +0000 Message-ID: References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_b78i4votg9tsnq4j2wm8apx81440029869338emailandroidcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Anima WG Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 00:23:11 -0000 --_000_b78i4votg9tsnq4j2wm8apx81440029869338emailandroidcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does supa have opinions about the reaction time of imperative logic ? If it= wants to support fast reaction, that would then imply the logic has to run= in eg: the routers as opposed to an sdn controller. I am also not sure i could decide between declarative and imperative... is = an acces list imperative ? Is the name of a well known access list declarat= ive ? Toerless Sent from my Samsung Captivate Glide on AT&T John Strassner wrote: Hi Michael, I've been involved in SUPA, but also in ANIMA; here is my perspective: > I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match > how we envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs. I'm not sure what is envisioned with intent in ANIMA; I have previously posted that I don't think that there is enough detail on what intent is and what it is supposed to do in ANIMA. > In particular, the model that is envisioned is far more SDN-like; > that is with a uber-intelligent centralized command and control > system that interprets SUPA Intents into things like Virtual Private > Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various things like > YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other > data models) I'm personally not a big SDN fan for a number of reasons, and at least in the I-Ds that I've written for SUPA, that is far from the vision that I have had. But this is just my opinion; others may differ. SUPA defines an information model (i.e., a model that is independent of language, protocol, and repository) that consists of three pieces: 1) generic policy concepts (e.g., the target of a policy, and how policy is represented and structured) 2) an imperative model (i.e., event-condition-action) that is derived from (1) 3) a declarative model (i.e., propositional or first order logic) that is also derived from (1) This structure enables sets of policies to be defined, where a declarative policy could then trigger the evaluation of declarative and/or imperative policies, and vice-versa. I **think** that in ANIMA, the assumption has been that intent should be declarative in nature. Please correct me if I am wrong. Please also realize that SUPA is both more than this, and models declarative policy as formal logic. This has a large number of advantages, especially for autonomics; please let me know if these are not obvious. > It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed > to cross-AS boundaries, but it seems like they could easily > do this. Indeed, they are. In my policy work, there is the concept of a policy domain, which is any domain whose entities are governed by a common set of policies. So the concept is actually broader than just ASs. > It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for > SUPA to be able to implement policies, but that's an > operator convenience. They could equally well use other > (more expensive!) management networks. Michael Behringer and I (and others, but I'm old so I have now forgotten who, sorry!) talked about this at IETF92. FOCALE (my autonomic architecture) chose the latter (mainly because ACP did not exist!) and I reflected that I wished I had thought of doing something like ACP. I feel that this would have made FOCALE more powerful and robust. > In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... > I don't think anyone overstated the situation, but I think > that the message that ANIMA Intents !=3D SUPA Intents > was too understated. I have not seen ANIMA intent formally defined. I think it would be interesting to determine first, if ANIMA intent should use declarative logic or not (besides SUPA, ONF, OpenStack Congress, and to an extent, ODL GBP all use declarative logic), and second, if ANIMA intent is not going to use declarative logic, then why not? > Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) points > on the list to > IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo Note that NEMO says that they are defining a declarative policy, but in reality, NEMO implements this with imperative (i.e., condition-action) constructs. > It seems that there ought to be significant overlap, and > yet I don't see it. IF ANIMA intent decides to use declarative logic or imperative logic (in the form of event-condition-action), then I would hope that the two indeed overlap. However, until ANIMA formally defines what intent is, it is impossible to say. regards, John On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 12:50 PM, Michael Richardson > wrote: {intentionally not cross-posted to SUPA} While working on other things today (and being at home with a pink-eyed kid= ), I found the tab that was open to watch the IETF93 SUPA BOF. I also had saved ~80 emails from the SUPA list to read. I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match how we envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs. In particular, the model that is envisioned is far more SDN-like; that is with a uber-intelligent centralized command and control system that interprets SUPA Intents into things like Virtual Private Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various things like YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other data models) It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed to cross-AS boundaries, but it seems like they could easily do this. It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for SUPA to be able to implement policies, but that's an operator convenience. They could equally well use other (more expensive!) management networks. In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... I don't think anyone overstated the situation, but I think that the message that ANIMA Intents !=3D SUPA Intents was too understated. Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) points on the list to IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo There was a SUPA telecon yesterday morning, but I had a nomcom call, so I missed it. It seems that there ought to be significant overlap, and yet I don't see it. -- Michael Richardson >,= Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- _______________________________________________ Anima mailing list Anima@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima -- regards, John --_000_b78i4votg9tsnq4j2wm8apx81440029869338emailandroidcom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Does supa have opinions about the reaction time of imperative logic ? = If it wants to support fast reaction, that would then imply the logic has t= o run in eg: the routers as opposed to an sdn controller.

I am also not sure i could decide between declarative and imperative..= . is an acces list imperative ? Is the name of a well known access list dec= larative ?

Toerless 




Sent from my Samsung Captivate = Glide on AT&T

John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Michael,

I've been involved in SUPA, but also in ANIMA; here is my perspective:=

> I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match
> how we envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs.

<jcs>
I'm not sure what is envisioned with intent in ANIMA; I have
previously posted that I don't think that there is enough
detail on what intent is and what it is supposed to do in ANIMA.
</jcs>

> In particular, the model that is envisioned is far more SDN-like;=
> that is with a uber-intelligent centralized command and cont= rol
> system that interprets SUPA Intents into things like Virtual= Private
> Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various things like
> YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other
> data models)

<jcs>
I'm personally not a big SDN fan for a number of reasons, and at
least in the I-Ds that I've written for SUPA, that is far from th= e
vision that I have had. But this is just my opinion; others may differ= .

SUPA defines an information model (i.e., a model that is
independent of language, protocol, and repository) that consists<= /div>
of three pieces:

   1) generic policy concepts (e.g., the target of a policy,= and
       how policy is represented and str= uctured)
   2) an imperative model (i.e., event-condition-action= ) that is
       derived from (1)
   3) a declarative model (i.e., propositional or first= order logic)
       that is also derived from (1)

This structure enables sets of policies to be defined, where a
declarative policy could then trigger the evaluation of
declarative and/or imperative policies, and vice-versa.

I **think** that in ANIMA, the assumption has been that intent
should be declarative in nature. Please correct me if I am wrong.=
Please also realize that SUPA is both more than this, and
models declarative policy as formal logic. This has a large
number of advantages, especially for autonomics; please let
me know if these are not obvious.
</jcs>

> It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed
> to cross-AS boundaries, but it seems like they could easily =
> do this.

<jcs>
Indeed, they are. In my policy work, there is the concept of a
policy domain, which is any domain whose entities are
governed by a common set of policies. So the concept is
actually broader than just ASs.
</jcs>

> It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for
> SUPA to be able to implement policies, but that's an
> operator convenience.  They could equally well use other
> (more expensive!) management networks.

<jcs>
Michael Behringer and I (and others, but I'm old so I have
now forgotten who, sorry!) talked about this at IETF92.
FOCALE (my autonomic architecture) chose the latter
(mainly because ACP did not exist!) and I reflected that I
wished I had thought of doing something like ACP. I feel
that this would have made FOCALE more powerful and
robust.
</jcs>

> In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA...
> I don't think anyone overstated the situation, but I think
> that the message that ANIMA Intents !=3D SUPA Intents
> was too understated.

<jcs>
I have not seen ANIMA intent formally defined. I think it
would be interesting to determine first, if ANIMA intent
should use declarative logic or not (besides SUPA,
ONF, OpenStack Congress, and to an extent, ODL GBP
all use declarative logic), and second, if ANIMA intent
is not going to use declarative logic, then why not?
</jcs>

> Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) points
> on the list to
>    IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo

<jcs>
Note that NEMO says that they are defining a declarative
policy, but in reality, NEMO implements this with imperative
(i.e., condition-action) constructs.
</jcs>

> It seems that there ought to be significant overlap, and
> yet I don't see it.

<jcs>
IF ANIMA intent decides to use declarative logic or
imperative logic (in the form of event-condition-action), then I
would hope that the two indeed overlap. However, until
ANIMA formally defines what intent is, it is impossible to say.
</jcs>

regards,
John


On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 12:50 PM, Michael Richar= dson <mcr+= ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:

{intentionally not cross-posted to SUPA}

While working on other things today (and being at home with a pink-eyed kid= ),
I found the tab that was open to watch the IETF93 SUPA BOF.

I also had saved ~80 emails from the SUPA list to read.
I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match how we
envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs.  In particular, the model th= at
is envisioned is far more SDN-like; that is with a uber-intelligent
centralized command and control system that interprets SUPA Intents into things like Virtual Private Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various
things like YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other data models)<= br>
It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed to cross-AS boundaries, but it seems like they could easily do this.

It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for SUPA to be able to<= br> implement policies, but that's an operator convenience.  They could eq= ually
well use other (more expensive!) management networks.

In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... I don't think
anyone overstated the situation, but I think that the message that ANIMA Intents !=3D SUPA Intents was too understated.

Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) points on the list to
     IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo

There was a SUPA telecon yesterday morning, but I had a nomcom call,
so I missed it.  It seems that there ought to be significant overlap,<= br> and yet I don't see it.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+I= ETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-




_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima




--
regards,
John
--_000_b78i4votg9tsnq4j2wm8apx81440029869338emailandroidcom_-- From nobody Wed Aug 19 19:00:05 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A70BF1A876B for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 19:00:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HSz6gVUD3lFB for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 19:00:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x236.google.com (mail-pa0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 61C051A0A85 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 19:00:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by paccq16 with SMTP id cq16so15756199pac.1 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 19:00:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=MdARudtVeO8tUo+ool9mUjM/B0b1eeu8Z7i9dPj9sMI=; b=E6a01+ezC8OQeSRCcEpTL0PkZ07NlcgNe/D5VuKV2nQp7e58MRh1VMx0pIhExWwkd2 ZXC4CWOMK2ZrEckfKZZwde8THMl7jpwRrOAxcpM2UjrgxLgp5A4yqXfWGP3Y7ydzFJ94 If7o7qg8xkEp8MTKfAtqGK33DZazBywZ5oVxt6XM7msBAuO1GR3ZxjRPorOOrqYlpSu3 exRaTgqQiv/LvfxdvwN3tsGMRBbmeIer7ctgz1z2lSsitmagwrtD1EEaSzGR9kcq/AQH ceA6TgEFlexYl90/FqbFUJJZiv4z5OLD/ls7ndFfbm3e3D7+8VJ4VHsJZGFuYO3yziPD DylA== X-Received: by 10.68.111.165 with SMTP id ij5mr1317613pbb.59.1440036001009; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 19:00:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:7737:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:7737:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id am4sm2274138pbd.58.2015.08.19.18.59.57 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 19 Aug 2015 18:59:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <55D534A2.4060603@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 14:00:02 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Strassner References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> <55D391BA.3000000@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: Michael Richardson , Anima WG Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 02:00:03 -0000 Hello John, On 20/08/2015 09:13, John Strassner wrote: > Hi Brian, > >> I didn't do that, but having looked at the SUPA minutes, I then >> looked at the IBNEMO documents, which make more sense to >> me than SUPA. > > > I'd like to know why. This could actually help both SUPA and NEMO. > To be blunt, I found a clear statement of purpose in Sue's draft (draft-hares-ibnemo-overview) and I have never found that for SUPA except in language that is too abstract for my thought processes. >> However, both IBNEMO and SUPA are definitely in the top/down >> north/south configuration management tradition. > > > As opposed to what? > Interactions between autonomic service agents (ASAs) are peer-to-peer; there is no assumed hierarchy. Even intent could in theory come from anywhere (anywhere authorized, that is) although we tend to assume it will come from a NOC. >> I don't see much overlap with SUPA. > > > I'd like to know why. Is this because you don't envision using ECA > or logic rules, or some other reason? > I could imagine a particular ASA or group of collaborating ASAs that are designed to use SUPA, for whatever their purpose in life is. We have to co-exist with traditional NMS methods, and with NETCONF, so why not with SUPA too? >> But actually the Nemo intent language looks more specific >> than I expect Anima intent to be: compare with >> draft-du-anima-an-intent and >> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-01#section-5.1 > > > Please see my earlier reply to Michael Richardson. > One could argue that this example is not "intent" as defined by ONF, > ODL GBP, OpenStack Congress, or SUPA's declarative logic > (though SUPA's ECA policy rule could easily express this). This is > because in other declarative designs, those SDOs have decided > that intent should NOT specify low-level parameters like IP > addresses or port numbers or DSCPs. That of course doesn't > mean that ANIMA couldn't do this, but it would mean that ANIMA's > intent model diverges from the industry. It's possible. Personally I want to put myself in the shoes of a NOC operator or a network designer and ask: what does she want to tell or authorize the network to do? That will set the level of abstraction or detail in intent statements. > This also clearly influences the underlying data model that you choose. > Well, if the syntax is sufficiently flexible, we should be able to cope with a wide range of levels of abstraction. As for declarative vs imperative, I think it's too soon to know for sure, but my feeling is that we will find use cases that need both. Rgds Brian > >> Brian > > regards, > John > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 1:12 PM, Brian E Carpenter < > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > >> On 19/08/2015 07:50, Michael Richardson wrote: >>> >>> {intentionally not cross-posted to SUPA} >>> >>> While working on other things today (and being at home with a pink-eyed >> kid), >>> I found the tab that was open to watch the IETF93 SUPA BOF. >> >> I didn't do that, but having looked at the SUPA minutes, I then looked >> at the IBNEMO documents, which make more sense to me than SUPA. >> However, both IBNEMO and SUPA are definitely in the top/down north/south >> configuration management tradition. >> >>> I also had saved ~80 emails from the SUPA list to read. >>> I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match how we >>> envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs. In particular, the model that >>> is envisioned is far more SDN-like; that is with a uber-intelligent >>> centralized command and control system that interprets SUPA Intents into >>> things like Virtual Private Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various >>> things like YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other data >> models) >>> >>> It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed to cross-AS >>> boundaries, but it seems like they could easily do this. >>> >>> It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for SUPA to be able >> to >>> implement policies, but that's an operator convenience. They could >> equally >>> well use other (more expensive!) management networks. >>> >>> In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... I don't think >>> anyone overstated the situation, but I think that the message that ANIMA >>> Intents != SUPA Intents was too understated. >> >> Agreed, judging by the documents. Anyway it seems clear that SUPA is >> not yet ready to get chartered. >> >>> Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) >> >> Well yes, but as I told him when he said that, retirement often >> doesn't work first time ;-). >> >>> points on the list to >>> IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo >>> >>> There was a SUPA telecon yesterday morning, but I had a nomcom call, >>> so I missed it. It seems that there ought to be significant overlap, >>> and yet I don't see it. >> >> I don't see much overlap with SUPA. >> >> If IBNEMO comes up with a good data model and syntax for expressing >> intent, we should consider using it. I guess one of the authors of >> draft-zhou-netmod-intent-nemo and draft-xia-sdnrg-nemo-language >> can advise us about that. But actually the Nemo intent language looks >> more specific than I expect Anima intent to be: compare with >> draft-du-anima-an-intent and >> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-01#section-5.1 >> >> Brian >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Anima mailing list >> Anima@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >> > > > From nobody Wed Aug 19 19:17:28 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B98DC1A8F44 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 19:17:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o3UBrxv2g68p for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 19:17:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 275311A8F41 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 19:17:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml406-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BWM87962; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 02:17:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.36) by lhreml406-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.243) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 03:17:19 +0100 Received: from NKGEML505-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.63]) by nkgeml405-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.36]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 10:17:16 +0800 From: Duzongpeng To: John Strassner , Brian E Carpenter Thread-Topic: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents Thread-Index: AQHQ2e8zRMIp1rb7iUiJbPevKJQpQZ4Rqn8AgAGjdICAAMqS4A== Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 02:17:14 +0000 Message-ID: References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> <55D391BA.3000000@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.149.226] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BAFEC9523F57BC48A51C20226A5589575F3ECE6Cnkgeml505mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: Michael Richardson , Anima WG Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 02:17:26 -0000 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Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E56CF1A908B for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 19:52:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IfFXZBaPdm54 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 19:52:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x22d.google.com (mail-ig0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E97A1A9085 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 19:52:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by igui7 with SMTP id i7so20998637igu.0 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 19:52:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=UxGbWHpqb6K2l+yMgIf8VjsqZr8zPb09f4eLDAKLSdQ=; b=wP0rPlxQnNUeMMvFrbO7asGU1XjweIslR0SPZ9HDwKsez2xpIGTOKpazjnjpysu83F d/NRfaEEsFjtR/tgo692WCIR0iGQy96MrBa+5DJ+3ZIfW2VXEfQeI4W1Zc0UGC1jIS0N d2nS8I+0tCxq/2g0VTZMcapKfguVbgmNfgKII6PtzYC0DzdlvTuvWVWcg2GmOSIfoTEy gq/ySgZ/u/uwzE/TVVxBYjAYZ7pZ1ON7ksbOtAozzD/fbButmT4Qayba/sELn44peMcq VKHoGSsMBUfct5Tm5DuRWHK9dGKZxHlDCKvpu3QdoI7dX+uNLZqqOvuYLR8A8PAlVky+ UdDA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.78.98 with SMTP id a2mr32424280igx.87.1440039155637; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 19:52:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.79.107.196 with HTTP; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 19:52:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 19:52:35 -0700 Message-ID: From: John Strassner To: "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" , John Strassner Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0122edba55a586051db53e65 Archived-At: Cc: Michael Richardson , Anima WG Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 02:52:40 -0000 --089e0122edba55a586051db53e65 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi Toerless, I don't think it is that simple, unfortunately. Let's say that a NOC operator wants to issue something like the following: "Any CPU in any VM whose utilization is > 70% should be load-balanced." The imperative version is, well, ugly: 1) First, you have to translate what this means into a form that a device could consume. This isn't particularly hard in this example, but it still has to be done. 2) If the policy repository did not have a matching rule, then you have to build one. But, how do you find every device that should be affected? Even if we change the rule to make it more explicit (e.g., s./CPU/router CPU), this is a nightmare, because you now need to look at the topology and build n of these rules just to do the check, and some smaller number to do the load-balancing. 3) If the policy repository does have matches, how do you know that they cover all of the cases? In contrast, the declarative version is trivial: just do a distributed transitive closure which finds all of the devices that meet the criteria, and then apply the load balancing to this set. So, in theory, you could use declarative to identify what devices you could then apply imperative policies to. In contrast, setting an ACL would be trivial with imperative, but much more difficult with declarative (because you would have to translate the declarative policy to something the device could consume). This is likely one reason I have gray hair. regards, John On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Toerless Eckert (eckert) wrote: > Does supa have opinions about the reaction time of imperative logic ? If > it wants to support fast reaction, that would then imply the logic has to > run in eg: the routers as opposed to an sdn controller. > > I am also not sure i could decide between declarative and imperative... is > an acces list imperative ? Is the name of a well known access list > declarative ? > > Toerless > > > > > Sent from my Samsung Captivate Glide on AT&T > > John Strassner wrote: > Hi Michael, > > I've been involved in SUPA, but also in ANIMA; here is my perspective: > > > I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match > > how we envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs. > > > I'm not sure what is envisioned with intent in ANIMA; I have > previously posted that I don't think that there is enough > detail on what intent is and what it is supposed to do in ANIMA. > > > > In particular, the model that is envisioned is far more SDN-like; > > that is with a uber-intelligent centralized command and control > > system that interprets SUPA Intents into things like Virtual Private > > Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various things like > > YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other > > data models) > > > I'm personally not a big SDN fan for a number of reasons, and at > least in the I-Ds that I've written for SUPA, that is far from the > vision that I have had. But this is just my opinion; others may differ. > > SUPA defines an information model (i.e., a model that is > independent of language, protocol, and repository) that consists > of three pieces: > > 1) generic policy concepts (e.g., the target of a policy, and > how policy is represented and structured) > 2) an imperative model (i.e., event-condition-action) that is > derived from (1) > 3) a declarative model (i.e., propositional or first order logic) > that is also derived from (1) > > This structure enables sets of policies to be defined, where a > declarative policy could then trigger the evaluation of > declarative and/or imperative policies, and vice-versa. > > I **think** that in ANIMA, the assumption has been that intent > should be declarative in nature. Please correct me if I am wrong. > Please also realize that SUPA is both more than this, and > models declarative policy as formal logic. This has a large > number of advantages, especially for autonomics; please let > me know if these are not obvious. > > > > It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed > > to cross-AS boundaries, but it seems like they could easily > > do this. > > > Indeed, they are. In my policy work, there is the concept of a > policy domain, which is any domain whose entities are > governed by a common set of policies. So the concept is > actually broader than just ASs. > > > > It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for > > SUPA to be able to implement policies, but that's an > > operator convenience. They could equally well use other > > (more expensive!) management networks. > > > Michael Behringer and I (and others, but I'm old so I have > now forgotten who, sorry!) talked about this at IETF92. > FOCALE (my autonomic architecture) chose the latter > (mainly because ACP did not exist!) and I reflected that I > wished I had thought of doing something like ACP. I feel > that this would have made FOCALE more powerful and > robust. > > > > In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... > > I don't think anyone overstated the situation, but I think > > that the message that ANIMA Intents != SUPA Intents > > was too understated. > > > I have not seen ANIMA intent formally defined. I think it > would be interesting to determine first, if ANIMA intent > should use declarative logic or not (besides SUPA, > ONF, OpenStack Congress, and to an extent, ODL GBP > all use declarative logic), and second, if ANIMA intent > is not going to use declarative logic, then why not? > > > > Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) points > > on the list to > > IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo > > > Note that NEMO says that they are defining a declarative > policy, but in reality, NEMO implements this with imperative > (i.e., condition-action) constructs. > > > > It seems that there ought to be significant overlap, and > > yet I don't see it. > > > IF ANIMA intent decides to use declarative logic or > imperative logic (in the form of event-condition-action), then I > would hope that the two indeed overlap. However, until > ANIMA formally defines what intent is, it is impossible to say. > > > regards, > John > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 12:50 PM, Michael Richardson < > mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote: > >> >> {intentionally not cross-posted to SUPA} >> >> While working on other things today (and being at home with a pink-eyed >> kid), >> I found the tab that was open to watch the IETF93 SUPA BOF. >> >> I also had saved ~80 emails from the SUPA list to read. >> I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match how we >> envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs. In particular, the model that >> is envisioned is far more SDN-like; that is with a uber-intelligent >> centralized command and control system that interprets SUPA Intents into >> things like Virtual Private Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various >> things like YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other data models) >> >> It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed to cross-AS >> boundaries, but it seems like they could easily do this. >> >> It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for SUPA to be able to >> implement policies, but that's an operator convenience. They could >> equally >> well use other (more expensive!) management networks. >> >> In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... I don't think >> anyone overstated the situation, but I think that the message that ANIMA >> Intents != SUPA Intents was too understated. >> >> Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) points on the list to >> IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo >> >> There was a SUPA telecon yesterday morning, but I had a nomcom call, >> so I missed it. It seems that there ought to be significant overlap, >> and yet I don't see it. >> >> -- >> Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works >> -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Anima mailing list >> Anima@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >> >> > > > -- > regards, > John > -- regards, John --089e0122edba55a586051db53e65 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Toerless,

I don't thi= nk it is that simple, unfortunately. Let's say that a NOC
ope= rator wants to issue something like the following:

=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Any CPU in any VM whose utilization is=C2=A0> 70% sh= ould be
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 load-balanced."

The imperative version is, well, ugly:

=C2= =A0=C2=A0 1) First, you have to translate what this means into a form
=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 that a device could consume. This= isn't particularly hard
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0in this example, but it still has to be done.
=C2=A0=C2=A0 = 2) If the policy repository did not have a matching rule,
=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 then you have to build one. But, how do you = find every
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 device that shoul= d be affected? Even if we change the
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 rule to make it more explicit (e.g., s./CPU/router CPU),
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 this is a nightmare, because you now= need to look at
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the topolog= y and build n of these rules just to do the
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 check, and some smaller number to do the load-balancing.
=C2=A0=C2=A0 3) If the policy repository does have matches, how do = you
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 know that they cover all= of the cases?

In contrast, the declarative versio= n is trivial: just do a distributed
transitive closure which find= s all of the devices that meet the
criteria, and then apply the l= oad balancing to this set.

So, in theory, you coul= d use declarative to identify what
devices you could then apply i= mperative policies to.

In contrast, setting an ACL= would be trivial with imperative,
but much more difficult with d= eclarative (because you would
have to translate the declarative p= olicy to something the
device could consume).

This is likely one reason I have gray hair.

= regards,
John

On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Toerless Eckert (eckert)= <eckert@cisco.com> wrote:
Does supa have opinions about the reaction time of imperative logic ? = If it wants to support fast reaction, that would then imply the logic has t= o run in eg: the routers as opposed to an sdn controller.

I am also not sure i could decide between declarative and imperative..= . is an acces list imperative ? Is the name of a well known access list dec= larative ?

Toerless=C2=A0




Sent from my Samsung Capti= vate Glide on AT&T

John Strassner <= strazpdj@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Michael,

I've been involved in SUPA, but also in ANIMA; here is my perspect= ive:

> I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match
>=C2=A0how we envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs.

<jcs>
I'm not sure what is envisioned with intent in ANIMA; I have
previously posted that I don't think that there is enough
detail on what intent is and what it is supposed to do in ANIMA.
</jcs>

> In particular, the model that is envisioned is far more SDN-like;=
>=C2=A0that is with a uber-intelligent centralized command and cont= rol
>=C2=A0system that interprets SUPA Intents into things like Virtual= Private
> Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various things like
> YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other
> data models)

<jcs>
I'm personally not a big SDN fan for a number of reasons, and at
least in the I-Ds that I've written for SUPA, that is far=C2=A0fro= m the
vision that I have had. But this is just my opinion; others may differ= .

SUPA defines an information model (i.e., a model that is
independent of=C2=A0language, protocol, and repository) that consists<= /div>
of three pieces:

=C2=A0=C2=A0 1) generic policy concepts (e.g., the target of a policy,= and
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 how policy is represented and str= uctured)
=C2=A0=C2=A0 2)=C2=A0an imperative model (i.e., event-condition-action= ) that is
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 derived from (1)
=C2=A0=C2=A0 3) a declarative model (i.e., propositional=C2=A0or first= order logic)
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 that is also derived from (1)

This structure enables sets of policies to be defined, where a
declarative policy could=C2=A0then trigger the evaluation of
declarative and/or imperative policies, and vice-versa.

I **think** that in ANIMA, the assumption has been that intent
should be=C2=A0declarative in nature. Please correct me if I am wrong.=
Please also=C2=A0realize that SUPA is both more than this, and
models declarative policy as formal=C2=A0logic. This has a large
number of advantages, especially for autonomics; please let
me know if these are not obvious.
</jcs>

>=C2=A0It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed=
>=C2=A0to cross-AS boundaries, but it seems like they could easily =
> do this.

<jcs>
Indeed, they are. In my policy work, there is the concept of a
policy domain, which is any domain whose entities=C2=A0are
governed by a common set of policies. So the concept is
actually broader than just ASs.
</jcs>

>=C2=A0It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for
> SUPA to be able to implement policies, but that's an
> operator convenience.=C2=A0 They could equally well use other
>=C2=A0(more expensive!) management networks.

<jcs>
Michael Behringer and I=C2=A0(and others, but I'm old so I have
now forgotten who, sorry!) talked about this at=C2=A0IETF92.
FOCALE (my autonomic architecture) chose the latter
(mainly because ACP did not exist!) and I reflected that=C2=A0I
wished I had thought of doing something like ACP. I feel
that this would have made FOCALE more powerful and
robust.
</jcs>

>=C2=A0In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA...
>=C2=A0I don't think anyone overstated the situation, but I thi= nk
>=C2=A0that the message that ANIMA Intents !=3D SUPA Intents
>=C2=A0was too understated.

<jcs>
I have not seen ANIMA intent formally defined. I think it
would be interesting to=C2=A0determine first, if ANIMA intent
should use declarative logic or=C2=A0not (besides SUPA,
ONF,=C2=A0OpenStack Congress, and to an extent, ODL GBP
all use declarative logic), and second, if=C2=A0ANIMA intent
is not going to use=C2=A0declarative logic, then why not?
</jcs>

>=C2=A0Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) points
>=C2=A0on the list to
>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo

<jcs>
Note that NEMO says that they are=C2=A0defining a declarative
policy, but in reality, NEMO implements this with imperative
(i.e., condition-action) constructs.
</jcs>

> It seems that there ought to be significant overlap,=C2=A0and
> yet I don't see it.

<jcs>
IF ANIMA intent decides to use declarative logic or
imperative logic (in the form of event-condition-action), then I
would hope that the two indeed overlap. However, until
ANIMA formally defines what intent is, it is impossible to say.
</jcs>

regards,
John


On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 12:50 PM, Michael Richar= dson <mcr+ietf@san= delman.ca> wrote:

{intentionally not cross-posted to SUPA}

While working on other things today (and being at home with a pink-eyed kid= ),
I found the tab that was open to watch the IETF93 SUPA BOF.

I also had saved ~80 emails from the SUPA list to read.
I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match how we
envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs.=C2=A0 In particular, the model th= at
is envisioned is far more SDN-like; that is with a uber-intelligent
centralized command and control system that interprets SUPA Intents into things like Virtual Private Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various
things like YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other data models)<= br>
It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed to cross-= AS
boundaries, but it seems like they could easily do this.

It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for SUPA to be able to<= br> implement policies, but that's an operator convenience.=C2=A0 They coul= d equally
well use other (more expensive!) management networks.

In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... I don't think anyone overstated the situation, but I think that the message that ANIMA Intents !=3D SUPA Intents was too understated.

Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) points on the list to =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo

There was a SUPA telecon yesterday morning, but I had a nomcom call,
so I missed it.=C2=A0 It seems that there ought to be significant overlap,<= br> and yet I don't see it.<= br>
--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
=C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-




_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima




--
regards,
John



--
regards,
John
--089e0122edba55a586051db53e65-- From nobody Wed Aug 19 20:02:59 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0E041A90AD for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 20:02:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c8jhrj1EG6Sb for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 20:02:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x22f.google.com (mail-ig0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4518E1A90C6 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 20:02:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by igui7 with SMTP id i7so4561083igu.1 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 20:02:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=rutrWYaXCIkipzuon/WkExJGdn6yuFCyF6KWZKgaDfk=; b=k7YYQhWJ9KAWf0dgLPB5ThfaeWtPeSRNadav9c6A2i1fPZg5dF4+nb3Jct5NjfHSZS cLWHsjw1pComQPJNK/JUU3vMlVdZ1pOGLZILaddNM3JF83eAtxInLvVmBDX7FKr/grt8 rcGlCSZ8QI9okPUriUK2MmCuM+RIe5HpWV3fEzfMDOwMZpZXkbGVrxax4b3wKLM4kM/4 R4TpDoO96CAtuHeYpEN8opB579d1jkzPlukdIgCQqB+0RhtR2+UHos5lYSb6HBFUF4Kb BDBBIyzqX54fqWX/20ePIn8sreI8Y0YBxhsURPtq2acuLz41J3Sq+7wQNZMyvPNUUtLX aq1w== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.64.212 with SMTP id q20mr5660263igs.5.1440039771667; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 20:02:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.79.107.196 with HTTP; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 20:02:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <55D534A2.4060603@gmail.com> References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> <55D391BA.3000000@gmail.com> <55D534A2.4060603@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 20:02:51 -0700 Message-ID: From: John Strassner To: Brian E Carpenter , John Strassner Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bd75fce0d82e5051db563d3 Archived-At: Cc: Michael Richardson , Anima WG Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 03:02:56 -0000 --047d7bd75fce0d82e5051db563d3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi Brian, please see . I'm on a mailer with limited capabilities, so please excuse the verbosity... > Hi Brian, > >> I didn't do that, but having looked at the SUPA minutes, I then >> looked at the IBNEMO documents, which make more sense to >> me than SUPA. > > > I'd like to know why. This could actually help both SUPA and NEMO. > To be blunt, I found a clear statement of purpose in Sue's draft (draft-hares-ibnemo-overview) and I have never found that for SUPA except in language that is too abstract for my thought processes. Does the following help: >From the abstract of draft-klyus-supa-proposition-02: Simplified Use of Policy Abstractions (SUPA) defines an interface to a network management function that takes high-level, possibly network-wide policies as input and creates element configuration snippets as output. SUPA expresses policies using a generic policy information model, and outputs generic YANG data models. >> However, both IBNEMO and SUPA are definitely in the top/down >> north/south configuration management tradition. > > > As opposed to what? > Interactions between autonomic service agents (ASAs) are peer-to-peer; there is no assumed hierarchy. Even intent could in theory come from anywhere (anywhere authorized, that is) although we tend to assume it will come from a NOC. Yup, this is how FOCALE worked. If you think that SUPA implies a hierarchy, then that is bad and it should be fixed. >> I don't see much overlap with SUPA. > > > I'd like to know why. Is this because you don't envision using ECA > or logic rules, or some other reason? > I could imagine a particular ASA or group of collaborating ASAs that are designed to use SUPA, for whatever their purpose in life is. We have to co-exist with traditional NMS methods, and with NETCONF, so why not with SUPA too? Indeed, ANIMA should be able to handle other types of policies, not just those of SUPA. >> But actually the Nemo intent language looks more specific >> than I expect Anima intent to be: compare with >> draft-du-anima-an-intent and >> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-01#section-5.1 > > > Please see my earlier reply to Michael Richardson. > One could argue that this example is not "intent" as defined by ONF, > ODL GBP, OpenStack Congress, or SUPA's declarative logic > (though SUPA's ECA policy rule could easily express this). This is > because in other declarative designs, those SDOs have decided > that intent should NOT specify low-level parameters like IP > addresses or port numbers or DSCPs. That of course doesn't > mean that ANIMA couldn't do this, but it would mean that ANIMA's > intent model diverges from the industry. It's possible. Personally I want to put myself in the shoes of a NOC operator or a network designer and ask: what does she want to tell or authorize the network to do? That will set the level of abstraction or detail in intent statements. I absolutely agree with this. In fact, this is why I stood up in the SUPA BoF and said that SUPA intent is different than ANIMA, mainly because ANIMA intent is not yet formally defined. But since ANIMA intent is not yet formally defined, I don't understand why people immediately conclude that ANIMA is different from SUPA. Note that I am not arguing whether ANIMA intent should be different than SUPA intent (or not); I am simply saying that you cannot compare something that is not formally defined to anything else. > This also clearly influences the underlying data model that you choose. > Well, if the syntax is sufficiently flexible, we should be able to cope with a wide range of levels of abstraction. As for declarative vs imperative, I think it's too soon to know for sure, but my feeling is that we will find use cases that need both. SUPA is (at least right now) envisioned as primarily an effort in modeling. I have posted on SUPA that a model, all by its lonesome, does NOT provide any type of policy management solution. A data model is just a set of data structures, it lacks the logic requirement to implement the policy. I've also posted that a DSL whose nouns and verbs are defined by an info model is likely what is needed. Rgds Brian regards, John On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 7:00 PM, Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > Hello John, > > On 20/08/2015 09:13, John Strassner wrote: > > Hi Brian, > > > >> I didn't do that, but having looked at the SUPA minutes, I then > >> looked at the IBNEMO documents, which make more sense to > >> me than SUPA. > > > > > > I'd like to know why. This could actually help both SUPA and NEMO. > > > > To be blunt, I found a clear statement of purpose in Sue's draft > (draft-hares-ibnemo-overview) and I have never found that for SUPA except > in language that is too abstract for my thought processes. > > >> However, both IBNEMO and SUPA are definitely in the top/down > >> north/south configuration management tradition. > > > > > > As opposed to what? > > > > Interactions between autonomic service agents (ASAs) are peer-to-peer; > there is no assumed hierarchy. Even intent could in theory come from > anywhere (anywhere authorized, that is) although we tend to assume it > will come from a NOC. > > >> I don't see much overlap with SUPA. > > > > > > I'd like to know why. Is this because you don't envision using ECA > > or logic rules, or some other reason? > > > > I could imagine a particular ASA or group of collaborating ASAs > that are designed to use SUPA, for whatever their purpose in life > is. We have to co-exist with traditional NMS methods, and with > NETCONF, so why not with SUPA too? > > >> But actually the Nemo intent language looks more specific > >> than I expect Anima intent to be: compare with > >> draft-du-anima-an-intent and > >> > > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-01#section-5.1 > > > > > > Please see my earlier reply to Michael Richardson. > > One could argue that this example is not "intent" as defined by ONF, > > ODL GBP, OpenStack Congress, or SUPA's declarative logic > > (though SUPA's ECA policy rule could easily express this). This is > > because in other declarative designs, those SDOs have decided > > that intent should NOT specify low-level parameters like IP > > addresses or port numbers or DSCPs. That of course doesn't > > mean that ANIMA couldn't do this, but it would mean that ANIMA's > > intent model diverges from the industry. > > It's possible. Personally I want to put myself in the shoes of a NOC > operator or a network designer and ask: what does she want to tell or > authorize the network to do? That will set the level of abstraction or > detail in intent statements. > > > This also clearly influences the underlying data model that you choose. > > > > Well, if the syntax is sufficiently flexible, we should be able to > cope with a wide range of levels of abstraction. As for declarative > vs imperative, I think it's too soon to know for sure, but my feeling > is that we will find use cases that need both. > > Rgds > Brian > > > > >> Brian > > > > regards, > > John > > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 1:12 PM, Brian E Carpenter < > > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> On 19/08/2015 07:50, Michael Richardson wrote: > >>> > >>> {intentionally not cross-posted to SUPA} > >>> > >>> While working on other things today (and being at home with a pink-eyed > >> kid), > >>> I found the tab that was open to watch the IETF93 SUPA BOF. > >> > >> I didn't do that, but having looked at the SUPA minutes, I then looked > >> at the IBNEMO documents, which make more sense to me than SUPA. > >> However, both IBNEMO and SUPA are definitely in the top/down north/south > >> configuration management tradition. > >> > >>> I also had saved ~80 emails from the SUPA list to read. > >>> I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match how we > >>> envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs. In particular, the model > that > >>> is envisioned is far more SDN-like; that is with a uber-intelligent > >>> centralized command and control system that interprets SUPA Intents > into > >>> things like Virtual Private Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various > >>> things like YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other data > >> models) > >>> > >>> It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed to > cross-AS > >>> boundaries, but it seems like they could easily do this. > >>> > >>> It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for SUPA to be able > >> to > >>> implement policies, but that's an operator convenience. They could > >> equally > >>> well use other (more expensive!) management networks. > >>> > >>> In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... I don't think > >>> anyone overstated the situation, but I think that the message that > ANIMA > >>> Intents != SUPA Intents was too understated. > >> > >> Agreed, judging by the documents. Anyway it seems clear that SUPA is > >> not yet ready to get chartered. > >> > >>> Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) > >> > >> Well yes, but as I told him when he said that, retirement often > >> doesn't work first time ;-). > >> > >>> points on the list to > >>> IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo > >>> > >>> There was a SUPA telecon yesterday morning, but I had a nomcom call, > >>> so I missed it. It seems that there ought to be significant overlap, > >>> and yet I don't see it. > >> > >> I don't see much overlap with SUPA. > >> > >> If IBNEMO comes up with a good data model and syntax for expressing > >> intent, we should consider using it. I guess one of the authors of > >> draft-zhou-netmod-intent-nemo and draft-xia-sdnrg-nemo-language > >> can advise us about that. But actually the Nemo intent language looks > >> more specific than I expect Anima intent to be: compare with > >> draft-du-anima-an-intent and > >> > >> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-01#section-5.1 > >> > >> Brian > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Anima mailing list > >> Anima@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > >> > > > > > > > -- regards, John --047d7bd75fce0d82e5051db563d3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Brian,

please see <jcs= 2/>. I'm on a mailer with limited capabilities, so
please = excuse the verbosity...

> Hi Brian,
> >> I didn't do that, but having looked at the SUPA minutes, I th= en
>> looked at the IBNEMO documents, which make more sense to
= >> me than SUPA.
>
> <jcs>
> I'd like to= know why. This could actually help both SUPA and NEMO.
> </jcs>= ;

To be blunt, I found a clear statement of purpose in Sue's dr= aft
(draft-hares-ibnemo-overview) and I have never found that for SUPA = except
in language that is too abstract for my thought processes.
=

<jcs2>
Does the following help:
From the abstract of draft-klyus-supa-proposition-02:
=C2=A0= =C2=A0 Simplified Use of Policy Abstractions (SUPA) defines an interface=C2=A0=C2=A0 to a network management function that takes high-level, possi= bly
=C2=A0=C2=A0 network-wide policies as input and creates element conf= iguration
=C2=A0=C2=A0 snippets as output. SUPA expresses policies using= a generic policy
=C2=A0=C2=A0 information model, and outputs generic YA= NG data models.
</jcs2>

>> However, both IBNEM= O and SUPA are definitely in the top/down
>> north/south configura= tion management tradition.
>
> <jcs>
> As opposed = to what?
> </jcs>

Interactions between autonomic servic= e agents (ASAs) are peer-to-peer;
there is no assumed hierarchy. Even i= ntent could in theory come from
anywhere (anywhere authorized, that is)= although we tend to assume it
will come from a NOC.

<jcs2>
Yup, this is how FOCALE worked. If you think = that SUPA implies a
hierarchy, then that is bad and it should be = fixed.
</jcs2>

>> I don't see much overlap= with SUPA.
>
> <jcs>
> I'd like to know why. = Is this because you don't envision using ECA
> or logic rules, or= some other reason?
> </jcs>

I could imagine a particul= ar ASA or group of collaborating ASAs
that are designed to use SUPA, fo= r whatever their purpose in life
is. We have to co-exist with tradition= al NMS methods, and with
NETCONF, so why not with SUPA too?
<= br>
<jcs>
Indeed, ANIMA should be able to handle = other types of policies,
not just those of SUPA.
</j= cs>

>> But actually the Nemo intent language looks more spe= cific
>> than I expect Anima intent to be: compare with
>>= ; draft-du-anima-an-intent and
>>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-anim= a-prefix-management-01#section-5.1
>
> <jcs>
>= Please see my earlier reply to Michael Richardson.
> One could argue= that this example is not "intent" as defined by ONF,
> ODL= GBP, OpenStack Congress, or SUPA's declarative logic
> (though S= UPA's ECA policy rule could easily express this). This is
> becau= se in other declarative designs, those SDOs have decided
> that inten= t should NOT specify low-level parameters like IP
> addresses or port= numbers or DSCPs. That of course doesn't
> mean that ANIMA could= n't do this, but it would mean that ANIMA's
> intent model di= verges from the industry.

It's possible. Personally I want to p= ut myself in the shoes of a NOC
operator or a network designer and ask:= what does she want to tell or
authorize the network to do? That will s= et the level of abstraction or
detail in intent statements.
<= br>
<jcs2>
I absolutely agree with this. In fact,= this is why I stood up in the SUPA
BoF and said that SUPA intent= is different than ANIMA, mainly because
ANIMA intent is not yet = formally defined. But since ANIMA intent is
not yet formally defi= ned, I don't understand why people immediately
conclude that = ANIMA is different from SUPA.

Note that I am not a= rguing whether ANIMA intent should be different
than SUPA intent = (or not); I am simply saying that you cannot compare
something th= at is not formally defined to anything else.
</jcs2>
> This also clearly influences the underlying data model that you choos= e.
> </jcs>

Well, if the syntax is sufficiently flexibl= e, we should be able to
cope with a wide range of levels of abstraction= . As for declarative
vs imperative, I think it's too soon to know f= or sure, but my feeling
is that we will find use cases that need both.<= /div>

<jcs2>
SUPA is (at least right now= ) envisioned as primarily an effort in modeling.
I have posted on= SUPA that a model, all by its lonesome, does NOT
provide any ty= pe of policy management solution. A data model is just
a set of d= ata structures, it lacks the logic requirement to implement the
p= olicy.=C2=A0I've also posted that=C2=A0a DSL=C2=A0whose nouns and verbs= are
defined by an info model is likely what is needed.

= =C2=A0Rgds
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian


<= br>
regards,
John

On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 7:00 PM, Brian = E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello John,

On 20/08/2015 09:13, John Strassner wrote:
> Hi Brian,
>
>> I didn't do that, but having looked at the SUPA minutes, I the= n
>> looked at the IBNEMO documents, which make more sense to
>> me than SUPA.
>
> <jcs>
> I'd like to know why. This could actually help both SUPA and NEMO.=
> </jcs>

To be blunt, I found a clear statement of purpose in Sue's draft
(draft-hares-ibnemo-overview) and I have never found that for SUPA except in language that is too abstract for my thought processes.

>> However, both IBNEMO and SUPA are definitely in the top/down
>> north/south configuration management tradition.
>
> <jcs>
> As opposed to what?
> </jcs>

Interactions between autonomic service agents (ASAs) are peer-to-peer;
there is no assumed hierarchy. Even intent could in theory come from
anywhere (anywhere authorized, that is) although we tend to assume it
will come from a NOC.

>> I don't see much overlap with SUPA.
>
> <jcs>
> I'd like to know why. Is this because you don't envision using= ECA
> or logic rules, or some other reason?
> </jcs>

I could imagine a particular ASA or group of collaborating ASAs
that are designed to use SUPA, for whatever their purpose in life
is. We have to co-exist with traditional NMS methods, and with
NETCONF, so why not with SUPA too?

>> But actually the Nemo intent language looks more specific
>> than I expect Anima intent to be: compare with
>> draft-du-anima-an-intent and
>>
> https://tools.iet= f.org/html/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-01#section-5.1
>
> <jcs>
> Please see my earlier reply to Michael Richardson.
> One could argue that this example is not "intent" as defined= by ONF,
> ODL GBP, OpenStack Congress, or SUPA's declarative logic
> (though SUPA's ECA policy rule could easily express this). This is=
> because in other declarative designs, those SDOs have decided
> that intent should NOT specify low-level parameters like IP
> addresses or port numbers or DSCPs. That of course doesn't
> mean that ANIMA couldn't do this, but it would mean that ANIMA'= ;s
> intent model diverges from the industry.

It's possible. Personally I want to put myself in the shoes of a NOC operator or a network designer and ask: what does she want to tell or
authorize the network to do? That will set the level of abstraction or
detail in intent statements.

> This also clearly influences the underlying data model that you choose= .
> </jcs>

Well, if the syntax is sufficiently flexible, we should be able to
cope with a wide range of levels of abstraction. As for declarative
vs imperative, I think it's too soon to know for sure, but my feeling is that we will find use cases that need both.

Rgds
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian

>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian
>
> regards,
> John
>
> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 1:12 PM, Brian E Carpenter <
> brian.e.carpenter@gmail= .com> wrote:
>
>> On 19/08/2015 07:50, Michael Richardson wrote:
>>>
>>> {intentionally not cross-posted to SUPA}
>>>
>>> While working on other things today (and being at home with a = pink-eyed
>> kid),
>>> I found the tab that was open to watch the IETF93 SUPA BOF. >>
>> I didn't do that, but having looked at the SUPA minutes, I the= n looked
>> at the IBNEMO documents, which make more sense to me than SUPA. >> However, both IBNEMO and SUPA are definitely in the top/down north= /south
>> configuration management tradition.
>>
>>> I also had saved ~80 emails from the SUPA list to read.
>>> I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really mat= ch how we
>>> envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs.=C2=A0 In particular,= the model that
>>> is envisioned is far more SDN-like; that is with a uber-intell= igent
>>> centralized command and control system that interprets SUPA In= tents into
>>> things like Virtual Private Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, vi= a various
>>> things like YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other = data
>> models)
>>>
>>> It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be desig= ned to cross-AS
>>> boundaries, but it seems like they could easily do this.
>>>
>>> It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for SUPA t= o be able
>> to
>>> implement policies, but that's an operator convenience.=C2= =A0 They could
>> equally
>>> well use other (more expensive!) management networks.
>>>
>>> In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... I don&= #39;t think
>>> anyone overstated the situation, but I think that the message = that ANIMA
>>> Intents !=3D SUPA Intents was too understated.
>>
>> Agreed, judging by the documents. Anyway it seems clear that SUPA = is
>> not yet ready to get chartered.
>>
>>> Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?)
>>
>> Well yes, but as I told him when he said that, retirement often >> doesn't work first time ;-).
>>
>>> points on the list to
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 IBNEMO - https://www.ie= tf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo
>>>
>>> There was a SUPA telecon yesterday morning, but I had a nomcom= call,
>>> so I missed it.=C2=A0 It seems that there ought to be signific= ant overlap,
>>> and yet I don't see it.
>>
>> I don't see much overlap with SUPA.
>>
>> If IBNEMO comes up with a good data model and syntax for expressin= g
>> intent, we should consider using it. I guess one of the authors of=
>> draft-zhou-netmod-intent-nemo and draft-xia-sdnrg-nemo-language >> can advise us about that. But actually the Nemo intent language lo= oks
>> more specific than I expect Anima intent to be: compare with
>> draft-du-anima-an-intent and
>>
>> https://tools= .ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-01#section-5.1
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima<= br> >>
>
>
>



--
regards,
John
--047d7bd75fce0d82e5051db563d3-- From nobody Thu Aug 20 01:58:40 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A41DC1A887B for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 01:58:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bJ1mR60mGfja for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 01:58:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.86.75]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate 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([173.37.93.156]) by rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 20 Aug 2015 08:58:34 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com (xch-aln-014.cisco.com [173.36.7.24]) by rcdn-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t7K8wWGA009525 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 20 Aug 2015 08:58:32 GMT Received: from xch-aln-014.cisco.com (173.36.7.24) by XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com (173.36.7.24) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 03:58:31 -0500 Received: from xhc-aln-x11.cisco.com (173.36.12.85) by xch-aln-014.cisco.com (173.36.7.24) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 03:58:31 -0500 Received: from xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com ([169.254.4.116]) by xhc-aln-x11.cisco.com ([173.36.12.85]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 03:58:31 -0500 From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" To: John Strassner , "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" Thread-Topic: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents Thread-Index: AQHQ2e8zUKJFj53dNUCAM+GABkZNc54UI+SAgAA4wACAACnXgIAAD7sw Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 08:58:31 +0000 Message-ID: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A659@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.55.238.133] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A659xmbrcdx14ciscoc_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Michael Richardson , Anima WG Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 08:58:38 -0000 --_000_3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A659xmbrcdx14ciscoc_ Content-Type: text/plain; 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Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 05:18:29 -0500 Received: from xmb-aln-x15.cisco.com ([169.254.9.140]) by xhc-rcd-x02.cisco.com ([173.37.183.76]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 05:18:28 -0500 From: "Jason Coleman (colemaj)" To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" , John Strassner , "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" Thread-Topic: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents Thread-Index: AQHQ2e8zEK1/sQao8EWznvkNYVuAhw== Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 10:18:28 +0000 Message-ID: References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A659@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A659@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/0.0.0.150807 x-originating-ip: [173.37.102.19] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BD2749CF2A8642B4AE9A0247ADE4BCB1ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Michael Richardson , Anima WG Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 10:18:36 -0000 --_000_BD2749CF2A8642B4AE9A0247ADE4BCB1ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 V2h5IG5vdCBhbGxvdyBib3RoIGRlY2xhcmF0aXZlIGFuZCBpbXBlcmF0aXZlIGluIHRoZSBzdHJ1 Y3R1cmUgb2YgQU5JTUEgYW5kIHRoZSBkZWxpdmVyeSB0aHJvdWdoIGFuZCBieSB0aGUgQUNQIGFu ZCBHUkFTUC4NCkhvdyB0aGUgSW50ZW50IGlzIHRoZW4gdXNlZCBieSB0aGUgZW5kIG5vZGUgaXMg dXAgdG8gdGhlIGRldmVsb3BlciBvZiB0aGF0IG5vZGUgYXQgdGhhdCBwb2ludC4NClRoZSBub2Rl IGNvdWxkIGJlIGRldmVsb3BlZCB0byBvbmx5IGRpZ2VzdCBkZWNsYXJhdGl2ZSBvciBhbHdheXMg 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A0AGAwBTsdVV/5pdJa1TBwOCTk1UaQaDH7otAQmBbQEJgkOCbkoCHIEYOBQBAQEBAQEBgQqEIwEBAQMBAQEBFwkKOAkLBQkCAgEIEQECAQEBCxYBBgMCAgIZBgYLFAMGCAIEAQ0FCIgRAwoIDbh3kCANhVcBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEXBItPgk+BWAYLASAFCgcKAQwEBgEGDIJXL4EUBYVvCYZrhTSDEQGHcIMRgzeELoMciW6HOCaCDgUXgVNxAYEECRcEH4EEAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.15,714,1432598400"; d="scan'208,217";a="180311888" Received: from rcdn-core-3.cisco.com ([173.37.93.154]) by alln-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 20 Aug 2015 10:53:55 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com (xch-rcd-020.cisco.com [173.37.102.30]) by rcdn-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t7KArttu023742 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 20 Aug 2015 10:53:55 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-020.cisco.com (173.37.102.30) by XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com (173.37.102.30) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 05:53:54 -0500 Received: from xhc-aln-x07.cisco.com (173.36.12.81) by xch-rcd-020.cisco.com (173.37.102.30) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 05:53:54 -0500 Received: from xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com ([169.254.4.116]) by xhc-aln-x07.cisco.com ([173.36.12.81]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 05:53:54 -0500 From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" To: "Jason Coleman (colemaj)" , John Strassner , "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" Thread-Topic: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents Thread-Index: AQHQ2e8zUKJFj53dNUCAM+GABkZNc54UI+SAgAA4wACAACnXgIAAD7swgABs2QD//7NPYA== Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 10:53:53 +0000 Message-ID: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A857@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A659@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.55.238.133] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A857xmbrcdx14ciscoc_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Michael Richardson , Anima WG Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 10:54:02 -0000 --_000_3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A857xmbrcdx14ciscoc_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 TXkgdmlldzogTGV04oCZcyBrZWVwIGludGVudCBwdXJlbHkgZGVjbGFyYXRpdmUuIElmIHlvdSBu ZWVkIHRvIHN1cHBvcnQgaW1wZXJhdGl2ZSBjb25jZXB0cywgZG8gdGhpcyB0aHJvdWdoIHRyYWRp dGlvbmFsIG1ldGhvZHMsIGxpa2UgQ0xJLCBuZXRjb25mLCBldGMuDQoNCkltcGVyYXRpdmUgc2F5 czogRGV2aWNlIHgsIGRvIHkuIFRvIG1lLCB0aGF0IGlzIG5vdCBhdXRvbm9taWMuIEFuZCB3ZSBz aG91bGRu4oCZdCBwcmV0ZW5kIGl0IGlzLg0KDQpOb3csIHRoaXMgaXMgYSBiaXQgb2YgYSBwdXJp 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(10.98.56.34) by lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.240) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 12:29:28 +0100 Received: from NKGEML505-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.63]) by nkgeml403-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.34]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 19:29:20 +0800 From: Duzongpeng To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" , "Jason Coleman (colemaj)" , John Strassner , "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" Thread-Topic: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents Thread-Index: AQHQ2e8zRMIp1rb7iUiJbPevKJQpQZ4TSfaAgAA4wACAACnXgIAAZj6AgAAWVgCAAAnmgIAAjtug Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 11:29:20 +0000 Message-ID: References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A659@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A857@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A857@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN 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X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0AGAwCKwdVV/5tdJa1TBwOCTk1UaQaDH7otAQmBbQEJgkOCbkoCHIEUOBQBAQEBAQEBgQqEIwEBAQMBAQEBFwkKOAkLBQkCAgEIEQECAQEBCxYBBgMCAgIZBgYLFAMGCAIEAQ0FCIgRAwoIDbkckCANhVcBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEXBIpMgQOCT4FYBgsBIAUKBwoBDAQGAQYMglcvgRQFhW8JhmuFNIMRAYdwgxGDN4QugxyJboNPg2kmgg4FF4FTcQGBBAkXBB+BBAEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.15,714,1432598400"; d="scan'208,217"; a="22072394" Received: from rcdn-core-4.cisco.com ([173.37.93.155]) by rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 20 Aug 2015 12:03:12 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com (xch-rcd-008.cisco.com [173.37.102.18]) by rcdn-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t7KC3CkP020144 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 20 Aug 2015 12:03:12 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-008.cisco.com (173.37.102.18) by XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com (173.37.102.18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 07:03:11 -0500 Received: from xhc-aln-x06.cisco.com (173.36.12.80) by xch-rcd-008.cisco.com (173.37.102.18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 07:03:11 -0500 Received: from xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com ([169.254.4.116]) by xhc-aln-x06.cisco.com ([173.36.12.80]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 07:03:09 -0500 From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" To: Duzongpeng , "Jason Coleman (colemaj)" , John Strassner , "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" Thread-Topic: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents Thread-Index: AQHQ2e8zUKJFj53dNUCAM+GABkZNc54UI+SAgAA4wACAACnXgIAAD7swgABs2QD//7NPYIAAYH4A//+0ryA= Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 12:03:08 +0000 Message-ID: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A8D7@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A659@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A857@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: 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autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jVUlWfbwP_WU for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 07:32:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.86.72]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BD4EF1A6F87 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 07:32:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=15047; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1440081162; x=1441290762; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=B7QHapc7OL2Zg0aMH4OPpRwXx5/Cg2Ql+WwpyM+fNt4=; b=W52gQZ2HX/InG0W5OwSBJUECMiVKx/aXt6Ta0rCVS2jAXQYJ+JLjk1EA 127wbscZQwM9XxeouSACYB4SrKvY2ypfFWDJqWxn7g5YCOYPgfUzjBsPJ Nvj/nq1o9AVhIjfvnsEzqd00Dr/4LSNmAGNKcblIc5IXz7kqtWTuwn9/C Y=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.15,714,1432598400"; d="scan'208";a="25876752" Received: from rcdn-core-2.cisco.com ([173.37.93.153]) by rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 20 Aug 2015 14:32:42 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by rcdn-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t7KEWfRs008778 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 20 Aug 2015 14:32:41 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t7KEWdZ6020727; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 07:32:39 -0700 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id t7KEWbbk020726; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 07:32:37 -0700 Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 07:32:37 -0700 From: "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" Message-ID: <20150820143237.GA10860@cisco.com> References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A659@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A857@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A8D7@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A8D7@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: Duzongpeng , Michael Richardson , "Jason Coleman \(colemaj\)" , Anima WG , John Strassner Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 14:32:46 -0000 The question really is what the requirements are to support us trying to have an opinion about intent (in anima). Systems to build more intelligent networks start to incooperate a whole slew of layers/concepts and intent is thrown around everywhere. Then you have big data and intent is expressed in that context, and you have semantic reasoners trying to fulfill intent and so on and so forth. IMHO, anima would do well try to figure out what problems exist outside anima in the IETF and how anima can help. In the same was as more shorter term in bootstrap, this could longer term (re-chartering) apply to stuff around intent. IMHO, it seems we already want to break up a system into components we call ASAs, and Laurent has started to explain in his draft how multiple ASA need coordination, and the way i read it, that would come through appropriate declarative information that lays out eg: dependencies,which can then be resolved. I am not sure if these dependencies are intent, but they are clearly important declarative informatoin we need to tackle once we deal with ASAs. Cheers Toerless On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 12:03:08PM +0000, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote: > Probably we need to decide on a case-by-case basis. If (!) we allow imperative statements (I???d still like to see why we couldn???t do it declarative first), I???d like a way to separate them out logically in the structure of whichever encoding we???ll use. At least we can then keep the ???clean??? Intent separate from temporary workarounds. > > Michael > > From: Duzongpeng [mailto:duzongpeng@huawei.com] > Sent: 20 August 2015 13:29 > To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); Jason Coleman (colemaj); John Strassner; Toerless Eckert (eckert) > Cc: Michael Richardson; Anima WG > Subject: RE: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents > > Hi Michael Behringer: > > I agree that declarative intent has advantages. > > But IMO, in the beginning, we should start defining intent using the simplest way no matter the intent is imperative or declarative. > > Perhaps in future, when the autonomic node is intelligent enough to understand the declarative intent, we can replace all the imperative ones. > > However in this time, we should not preclude imperative intents. > > Of course, in your example, ???Device x, do y???, this kind of Imperative intent should be avoided. > > Best Regartds > Zongpeng Du > > > From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Behringer (mbehring) > Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2015 6:54 PM > To: Jason Coleman (colemaj); John Strassner; Toerless Eckert (eckert) > Cc: Michael Richardson; Anima WG > Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents > > My view: Let???s keep intent purely declarative. If you need to support imperative concepts, do this through traditional methods, like CLI, netconf, etc. > > Imperative says: Device x, do y. To me, that is not autonomic. And we shouldn???t pretend it is. > > Now, this is a bit of a purist view, and I???ve heard comments along the lines: ???well, if we have this nice Intent concept, we want to use it for everything???. I???d rather keep it separate, but that is just a personal opinion of course ??? (A strong one though! ??? > > Michael > > From: Jason Coleman (colemaj) > Sent: 20 August 2015 12:18 > To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); John Strassner; Toerless Eckert (eckert) > Cc: Michael Richardson; Anima WG > Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents > > Why not allow both declarative and imperative in the structure of ANIMA and the delivery through and by the ACP and GRASP. > How the Intent is then used by the end node is up to the developer of that node at that point. > The node could be developed to only digest declarative or always allow declarative and only imperative for a discreet set of items that it supports in that regard. > > -- > Jason Coleman CCIE#12069 > jmcoleman@cisco.com > phone: +1 512-340-3134 > Technical Lead Engineer CMS > > This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient (or authorized to receive for the recipient), please contact the sender by reply email and delete all copies of this message. > For corporate legal information go to: > http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/index.html > > > From: Anima on behalf of "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" > Date: Thursday, August 20, 2015 at 3:58 AM > To: John Strassner, "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" > Cc: Michael Richardson, Anima WG > Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents > > To me it is clear that ANIMA Intent is declarative. It describes the desired outcome, not the way to get to it. That???s exactly what Autonomics is all about, in fact. Different devices have different way to achieve things, different capabilities. In an imperative approach those different ways and capabilities would have to be expressed. > > The reason the industry is having trouble with ACL management is exactly because it is imperative. It???s just the wrong approach for most use cases. > > Autonomics aims to abstract away device specifics and to provide one higher level view of the network. That???s exactly the declarative approach. I really hope we have agreement on that. > > Disclaimer: For practical reasons (device capabilities) it may well be required for some time to do some hacks in Intent that are imperative. As long as we all understand it???s a temporary hack, and are explicit about it, that???s ok. > > So, do we agree that Intent is declarative? Any objections? We should really get agreement on that??? > > Michael > > From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of John Strassner > Sent: 20 August 2015 04:53 > To: Toerless Eckert (eckert); John Strassner > Cc: Michael Richardson; Anima WG > Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents > > Hi Toerless, > > I don't think it is that simple, unfortunately. Let's say that a NOC > operator wants to issue something like the following: > > "Any CPU in any VM whose utilization is > 70% should be > load-balanced." > > The imperative version is, well, ugly: > > 1) First, you have to translate what this means into a form > that a device could consume. This isn't particularly hard > in this example, but it still has to be done. > 2) If the policy repository did not have a matching rule, > then you have to build one. But, how do you find every > device that should be affected? Even if we change the > rule to make it more explicit (e.g., s./CPU/router CPU), > this is a nightmare, because you now need to look at > the topology and build n of these rules just to do the > check, and some smaller number to do the load-balancing. > 3) If the policy repository does have matches, how do you > know that they cover all of the cases? > > In contrast, the declarative version is trivial: just do a distributed > transitive closure which finds all of the devices that meet the > criteria, and then apply the load balancing to this set. > > So, in theory, you could use declarative to identify what > devices you could then apply imperative policies to. > > In contrast, setting an ACL would be trivial with imperative, > but much more difficult with declarative (because you would > have to translate the declarative policy to something the > device could consume). > > This is likely one reason I have gray hair. > > regards, > John > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Toerless Eckert (eckert) > wrote: > Does supa have opinions about the reaction time of imperative logic ? If it wants to support fast reaction, that would then imply the logic has to run in eg: the routers as opposed to an sdn controller. > > I am also not sure i could decide between declarative and imperative... is an acces list imperative ? Is the name of a well known access list declarative ? > > Toerless > > > > > Sent from my Samsung Captivate Glide on AT&T > > John Strassner > wrote: > Hi Michael, > > I've been involved in SUPA, but also in ANIMA; here is my perspective: > > > I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match > > how we envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs. > > > I'm not sure what is envisioned with intent in ANIMA; I have > previously posted that I don't think that there is enough > detail on what intent is and what it is supposed to do in ANIMA. > > > > In particular, the model that is envisioned is far more SDN-like; > > that is with a uber-intelligent centralized command and control > > system that interprets SUPA Intents into things like Virtual Private > > Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various things like > > YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other > > data models) > > > I'm personally not a big SDN fan for a number of reasons, and at > least in the I-Ds that I've written for SUPA, that is far from the > vision that I have had. But this is just my opinion; others may differ. > > SUPA defines an information model (i.e., a model that is > independent of language, protocol, and repository) that consists > of three pieces: > > 1) generic policy concepts (e.g., the target of a policy, and > how policy is represented and structured) > 2) an imperative model (i.e., event-condition-action) that is > derived from (1) > 3) a declarative model (i.e., propositional or first order logic) > that is also derived from (1) > > This structure enables sets of policies to be defined, where a > declarative policy could then trigger the evaluation of > declarative and/or imperative policies, and vice-versa. > > I **think** that in ANIMA, the assumption has been that intent > should be declarative in nature. Please correct me if I am wrong. > Please also realize that SUPA is both more than this, and > models declarative policy as formal logic. This has a large > number of advantages, especially for autonomics; please let > me know if these are not obvious. > > > > It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed > > to cross-AS boundaries, but it seems like they could easily > > do this. > > > Indeed, they are. In my policy work, there is the concept of a > policy domain, which is any domain whose entities are > governed by a common set of policies. So the concept is > actually broader than just ASs. > > > > It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for > > SUPA to be able to implement policies, but that's an > > operator convenience. They could equally well use other > > (more expensive!) management networks. > > > Michael Behringer and I (and others, but I'm old so I have > now forgotten who, sorry!) talked about this at IETF92. > FOCALE (my autonomic architecture) chose the latter > (mainly because ACP did not exist!) and I reflected that I > wished I had thought of doing something like ACP. I feel > that this would have made FOCALE more powerful and > robust. > > > > In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... > > I don't think anyone overstated the situation, but I think > > that the message that ANIMA Intents != SUPA Intents > > was too understated. > > > I have not seen ANIMA intent formally defined. I think it > would be interesting to determine first, if ANIMA intent > should use declarative logic or not (besides SUPA, > ONF, OpenStack Congress, and to an extent, ODL GBP > all use declarative logic), and second, if ANIMA intent > is not going to use declarative logic, then why not? > > > > Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) points > > on the list to > > IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo > > > Note that NEMO says that they are defining a declarative > policy, but in reality, NEMO implements this with imperative > (i.e., condition-action) constructs. > > > > It seems that there ought to be significant overlap, and > > yet I don't see it. > > > IF ANIMA intent decides to use declarative logic or > imperative logic (in the form of event-condition-action), then I > would hope that the two indeed overlap. However, until > ANIMA formally defines what intent is, it is impossible to say. > > > regards, > John > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 12:50 PM, Michael Richardson > wrote: > > {intentionally not cross-posted to SUPA} > > While working on other things today (and being at home with a pink-eyed kid), > I found the tab that was open to watch the IETF93 SUPA BOF. > > I also had saved ~80 emails from the SUPA list to read. > I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match how we > envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs. In particular, the model that > is envisioned is far more SDN-like; that is with a uber-intelligent > centralized command and control system that interprets SUPA Intents into > things like Virtual Private Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various > things like YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other data models) > > It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed to cross-AS > boundaries, but it seems like they could easily do this. > > It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for SUPA to be able to > implement policies, but that's an operator convenience. They could equally > well use other (more expensive!) management networks. > > In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... I don't think > anyone overstated the situation, but I think that the message that ANIMA > Intents != SUPA Intents was too understated. > > Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) points on the list to > IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo > > There was a SUPA telecon yesterday morning, but I had a nomcom call, > so I missed it. It seems that there ought to be significant overlap, > and yet I don't see it. > > -- > Michael Richardson >, Sandelman Software Works > -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > > > > -- > regards, > John > > > > -- > regards, > John -- --- Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com From nobody Thu Aug 20 07:55:04 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B8D01ACE93 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 07:55:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x4SUd4WQBoTw for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 07:54:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x229.google.com (mail-ig0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5AA521ACE56 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 07:54:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by igbjg10 with SMTP id jg10so130492893igb.0 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 07:54:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=cmJcdU2hJK3MgaJLeME5K9tHmho2pV3Y0A/pk4WoNMQ=; b=iaEV0IiT+Agrg6zir95XjAsZ0dBMer4Bc/71TyuNHU8Ih/4tFltA0v8kMBZiemCZ9y u18dRbr9SVEkxL3gZLBgQMy06ZMx/AbXf2Q/fNNnzK9//7ckKV2Q6v5JF485JTCdAHWi Dse//yb9hiqKbNRxM+kkhF8ywh72YK8RQPi4raMu9Kiy647rmBOrANZD4vO3ZNeO5UKp HIiOqKMFKxSODyyH/NcIGJGgZEOSdZ5TZ1xB7C8q1+MDYdBbf6jan8iMc2E3glkNrMUW NRvDTB0WL2aH+ynhSC3I+nLolgCgSnCj26VIfk86D5Zp79XAHi9uCtUm7peS3pl1z/fV oBcw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.64.212 with SMTP id q20mr8250609igs.5.1440082497739; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 07:54:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.79.107.196 with HTTP; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 07:54:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> <55D391BA.3000000@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 07:54:57 -0700 Message-ID: From: John Strassner To: Duzongpeng , John Strassner Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bd75fceb9a1df051dbf55be Archived-At: Cc: Michael Richardson , Anima WG Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 14:55:02 -0000 --047d7bd75fceb9a1df051dbf55be Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Although sharing the name =E2=80=9Cintent=E2=80=9D, SUPA intent and ANIMA= intent > have different motivations and ways to define intent. That will likely confuse people that are not part of ANIMA. Note that in SUPA, I try and avoid using the word "intent", because it is used differently in different SDOs. In SUPA, I call it declarative logic. However, ONF, OpenStack Congress, and ODL call it intent. > SUPA intent begins with a common information model, while the > ANIMA intent will likely be defined by using some use cases first. SUPA had a large number of use cases, most from operators. The reason we define an information model is because of 2 reasons: 1) we envisioned the translation to multiple data models, and 2) I wanted an information model to build definitions for various parts of a language (e.g., nouns and verbs) if we did a DSL More importantly, SUPA is NOT an "information model of the world." SUPA is JUST an information model that defines policy. > Furthermore, the aim of autonomic is to make intent as less as > possible, and as simple as possible to ease the network > management jobs. You lost me. Why does something as complex as autonomics require a simple policy? If you want simplicity, then the easiest way to build that is to have a model that facilitates translation from some high-level form to an intermediate form that the system understands. > ANIMA intent will increase bit-by-bit while the autonomic > service agents are being defined bit-by-bit. An information model enables the representation and definition of policy to grow with time. It seems to me that since you haven't defined what your policy is, an information model would help. > IMO, any input from the operator to make the network more autonomic can be considered as an =E2=80=9Cintent=E2=80=9D in ANIMA. > Currently, perhaps because the use cases are not too many, I do not find too much overlap between SUPA intent and ANIMA intent. > My suggestion is to develop them separately unless clear evidence is found that autonomic network needs the information model defined in SUPA= . There are plenty of use cases in SUPA, or did you mean ANIMA? regards, John On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 7:17 PM, Duzongpeng wrote: > Hi John, > > > > Some personal understanding to share. > > > > Although sharing the name =E2=80=9Cintent=E2=80=9D, SUPA intent = and ANIMA intent > have different motivations and ways to define intent. > > > > SUPA intent begins with a common information model, while the > ANIMA intent will likely be defined by using some use cases first. > > > > Furthermore, the aim of autonomic is to make intent as less as > possible, and as simple as possible to ease the network management jobs. > > > > ANIMA intent will increase bit-by-bit while the autonomic servic= e > agents are being defined bit-by-bit. > > > > IMO, any input from the operator to make the network more autonomic can b= e > considered as an =E2=80=9Cintent=E2=80=9D in ANIMA. > > > > Currently, perhaps because the use cases are not too many, I do > not find too much overlap between SUPA intent and ANIMA intent. > > > > My suggestion is to develop them separately unless clear evidenc= e > is found that autonomic network needs the information model defined in SU= PA. > > > > Best Regards > > Zongpeng Du > > > > *From:* Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *John > Strassner > *Sent:* Thursday, August 20, 2015 5:14 AM > *To:* Brian E Carpenter; John Strassner > *Cc:* Michael Richardson; Anima WG > *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents > > > > Hi Brian, > > > > > I didn't do that, but having looked at the SUPA minutes, I then > > > looked at the IBNEMO documents, which make more sense to > > > me than SUPA. > > > > > > I'd like to know why. This could actually help both SUPA and NEMO. > > > > > > However, both IBNEMO and SUPA are definitely in the top/down > > > north/south configuration management tradition. > > > > > > As opposed to what? > > > > > I don't see much overlap with SUPA. > > > > > > I'd like to know why. Is this because you don't envision using ECA > > or logic rules, or some other reason? > > > > > > But actually the Nemo intent language looks more specific > > > than I expect Anima intent to be: compare with > > draft-du-anima-an-intent and > > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-01#sectio= n-5.1 > > > > > > Please see my earlier reply to Michael Richardson. > > One could argue that this example is not "intent" as defined by ONF, > > ODL GBP, OpenStack Congress, or SUPA's declarative logic > > (though SUPA's ECA policy rule could easily express this). This is > > because in other declarative designs, those SDOs have decided > > that intent should NOT specify low-level parameters like IP > > addresses or port numbers or DSCPs. That of course doesn't > > mean that ANIMA couldn't do this, but it would mean that ANIMA's > > intent model diverges from the industry. > > > > This also clearly influences the underlying data model that you choose. > > > > > > > > Brian > > > > regards, > > John > > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 1:12 PM, Brian E Carpenter < > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > > On 19/08/2015 07:50, Michael Richardson wrote: > > > > {intentionally not cross-posted to SUPA} > > > > While working on other things today (and being at home with a pink-eyed > kid), > > I found the tab that was open to watch the IETF93 SUPA BOF. > > I didn't do that, but having looked at the SUPA minutes, I then looked > at the IBNEMO documents, which make more sense to me than SUPA. > However, both IBNEMO and SUPA are definitely in the top/down north/south > configuration management tradition. > > > I also had saved ~80 emails from the SUPA list to read. > > I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match how we > > envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs. In particular, the model tha= t > > is envisioned is far more SDN-like; that is with a uber-intelligent > > centralized command and control system that interprets SUPA Intents int= o > > things like Virtual Private Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various > > things like YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other data > models) > > > > It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed to cross-= AS > > boundaries, but it seems like they could easily do this. > > > > It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for SUPA to be able > to > > implement policies, but that's an operator convenience. They could > equally > > well use other (more expensive!) management networks. > > > > In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... I don't think > > anyone overstated the situation, but I think that the message that ANIM= A > > Intents !=3D SUPA Intents was too understated. > > Agreed, judging by the documents. Anyway it seems clear that SUPA is > not yet ready to get chartered. > > > Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) > > Well yes, but as I told him when he said that, retirement often > doesn't work first time ;-). > > > points on the list to > > IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo > > > > There was a SUPA telecon yesterday morning, but I had a nomcom call, > > so I missed it. It seems that there ought to be significant overlap, > > and yet I don't see it. > > I don't see much overlap with SUPA. > > If IBNEMO comes up with a good data model and syntax for expressing > intent, we should consider using it. I guess one of the authors of > draft-zhou-netmod-intent-nemo and draft-xia-sdnrg-nemo-language > can advise us about that. But actually the Nemo intent language looks > more specific than I expect Anima intent to be: compare with > draft-du-anima-an-intent and > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-01#sectio= n-5.1 > > Brian > > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > > > > > -- > > regards, > > John > > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > > --=20 regards, John --047d7bd75fceb9a1df051dbf55be Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> Although sharing the name =E2=80=9Cintent=E2=80=9D, SUPA = intent and ANIMA intent
>=C2=A0have different motiva= tions and ways to define intent.
= =C2=A0
<jcs>
That will likely confuse peop= le that are not part of ANIMA. Note that in SUPA,
I try and avoi= d using the word "intent", because it is used differently in
different SDOs. In SUPA, I call it declarative logic. However, ONF,= OpenStack
Congress, and ODL call it intent.
</jc= s>

>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 SUPA intent begins with a common information model, while the
>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ANIMA intent will like= ly be defined by using some use cases first.

<= ;jcs>
SUPA had a large number of use cases, most from operators. The = reason
we define an information model is because of 2 reasons:
=C2=A0=C2=A0 1) we envisioned the translation to multiple data mo= dels, and
=C2=A0=C2=A0 2) I wanted an information model to bui= ld definitions for various
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= parts of a language (e.g., nouns and verbs) if we did a DSL
More importantly, SUPA is NOT an "information model of the= world."
SUPA is JUST an information model that defines pol= icy.
</jcs>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Furthermore, the= aim of autonomic is to make intent as less as
>=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0possible, and as simple as possib= le to ease the network
>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 management jobs.

<jcs>=
You lost me. Why does something as complex as autonomics require
a simple policy?

If you want simplicity, t= hen the easiest way to build that is to have
a model that facili= tates translation from some high-level form
to an intermediate f= orm that the system understands.
</jcs>

= =C2=A0

=C2=A0>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= ANIMA intent will increase bit-by-bit while the autonomic
>= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 service agents are being d= efined bit-by-bit.

<jcs>
An in= formation model enables the representation and definition of
pol= icy to grow with time. It seems to me that since you haven't
defined what your policy is, an information model would help.
=
&= lt;/jcs>

>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 IMO, any inp= ut from the operator to make the network more autonomic can be considered a= s an =E2=80=9Cintent=E2=80=9D in ANIMA.

>= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Currently, perhaps because the use cases are not too many, I d= o not find too much overlap between SUPA intent and ANIMA intent.=

>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 My suggestion is to develop them s= eparately unless clear evidence is found that autonomic network needs the i= nformation model defined in SUPA.

<jcs><= /div>
There are plenty of use cases in SUPA, or did you mean ANIMA?
</jcs>

regards,
John
<= /div>

On Wed, Aug = 19, 2015 at 7:17 PM, Duzongpeng <duzongpeng@huawei.com> = wrote:

Hi = John,=C2=A0=C2=A0

= =C2=A0

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Some personal understanding t= o share.

= =C2=A0

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Although sharing the name =E2= =80=9Cintent=E2=80=9D, SUPA intent and ANIMA intent have different motivati= ons and ways to define intent.

= =C2=A0

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 SUPA intent begins with a com= mon information model, while the ANIMA intent will likely be defined by usi= ng some use cases first.

= =C2=A0

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Furthermore, the aim of auton= omic is to make intent as less as possible, and as simple as possible to ea= se the network management jobs.

= =C2=A0

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ANIMA intent will increase bi= t-by-bit while the autonomic service agents are being defined bit-by-bit.

=C2=A0

IMO, any input from the operator to make the networ= k more autonomic can be considered as an =E2=80=9Cintent=E2=80=9D in ANIMA.=

= =C2=A0

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Currently, perhaps because th= e use cases are not too many, I do not find too much overlap between SUPA i= ntent and ANIMA intent.

= =C2=A0

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 My suggestion is to develop t= hem separately unless clear evidence is found that autonomic network needs = the information model defined in SUPA.

= =C2=A0

Bes= t Regards

Zon= gpeng Du

= =C2=A0

From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of John Strassner
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2015 5:14 AM
To: Brian E Carpenter; John Strassner
Cc: Michael Richardson; Anima WG
Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Inten= ts

=C2=A0

Hi Brian,<= /p>

=C2=A0

> I didn't do that, but = having looked at the SUPA minutes, I then

>=C2=A0looked at the IBNEMO = documents, which make more sense to

>=C2=A0me than SUPA.<= u>

=C2=A0

<jcs>

I'd like to know why. This = could actually help both SUPA and NEMO.

</jcs>


>=C2=A0However, both IBNEMO and SUPA are definitely in the top/down

>=C2=A0north/south configura= tion management tradition.

=C2=A0

<jcs>

As opposed to what?

</jcs>

>=C2=A0I don't see much overlap with SUPA.

=C2=A0

<jcs>

I'd like to know why. Is th= is because you don't envision using ECA

or logic rules, or some other r= eason?

</jcs>


>=C2=A0But actually the Nemo intent language looks more specific<= u>

> than I expect Anima intent= to be: compare with
> draft-du-anima-an-intent and
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-01#section-= 5.1

=C2=A0

<jcs>

Please see my earlier reply to = Michael Richardson.

One could argue that this examp= le is not "intent" as defined by ONF,

ODL GBP, OpenStack Congress, or= SUPA's declarative logic

(though SUPA's ECA policy r= ule could easily express this). This is

because in other declarative de= signs, those SDOs have decided

that intent should NOT specify = low-level parameters like IP

addresses or port numbers or DS= CPs. That of course doesn't

mean that ANIMA couldn't do= this, but it would mean that ANIMA's

intent model diverges from the = industry.

=C2=A0

This also clearly influences th= e underlying data model that you choose.

</jcs>

=C2=A0


>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Brian

=C2=A0

regards,

John

=C2=A0

On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 1:12 PM= , Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

On 19/08/2015 07:50, Michael Ri= chardson wrote:
>
> {intentionally not cross-posted to SUPA}
>
> While working on other things today (and being at home with a pink-eye= d kid),
> I found the tab that was open to watch the IETF93 SUPA BOF.

I didn't do that, but having looked at the SUPA minutes, I then looked<= br> at the IBNEMO documents, which make more sense to me than SUPA.
However, both IBNEMO and SUPA are definitely in the top/down north/south configuration management tradition.

> I also had saved ~80 emails from the SUPA list to read.
> I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match how w= e
> envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs.=C2=A0 In particular, the mod= el that
> is envisioned is far more SDN-like; that is with a uber-intelligent > centralized command and control system that interprets SUPA Intents in= to
> things like Virtual Private Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via variou= s
> things like YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other data mod= els)
>
> It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed to c= ross-AS
> boundaries, but it seems like they could easily do this.
>
> It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for SUPA to be abl= e to
> implement policies, but that's an operator convenience.=C2=A0 They= could equally
> well use other (more expensive!) management networks.
>
> In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... I don't th= ink
> anyone overstated the situation, but I think that the message that ANI= MA
> Intents !=3D SUPA Intents was too understated.

Agreed, judging by the documents. Anyway it seems clear that SUPA is
not yet ready to get chartered.

> Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?)

Well yes, but as I told him when he said that, retirement often
doesn't work first time ;-).

> points on the list to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo
>
> There was a SUPA telecon yesterday morning, but I had a nomcom call, > so I missed it.=C2=A0 It seems that there ought to be significant over= lap,
> and yet I don't see it.

I don't see much overlap with SUPA.

If IBNEMO comes up with a good data model and syntax for expressing
intent, we should consider using it. I guess one of the authors of
draft-zhou-netmod-intent-nemo and draft-xia-sdnrg-nemo-language
can advise us about that. But actually the Nemo intent language looks
more specific than I expect Anima intent to be: compare with
draft-du-anima-an-intent and
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-a= nima-prefix-management-01#section-5.1

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian

_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
h= ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima




--

regards,

John


_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima




--
regards,
John
--047d7bd75fceb9a1df051dbf55be-- From nobody Thu Aug 20 08:16:11 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD5581ACEC4 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 08:16:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MWeDrH-lwzOS for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 08:16:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x22c.google.com (mail-ig0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F08D51ACE37 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 08:16:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by igxp17 with SMTP id p17so131657336igx.1 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 08:16:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=9k2/mPKH02n61sFoK/s2hk07MskI2y9TFhVf6N6RNqI=; b=P0+fFBzRZEvGsxC608Z0HLe7ssUHhPZXAm7Jf9ZZwSq0Us4UVWlyVja14OsiCwWa++ ra7CWjDXDc6kIAGeCpKtVO0D8WHyytc0I4YSMDwT8eFtcnEgxrh7k+4H+2/HuuJ3mzET Npb+bNcphsHFACDuErJZD0esJJfu8GgxBYl1QBYSXyQ97+istuisHUmgjIK+GVxt7vSP TAo/23nsJYqzeKOF7h1ObIx5XxId/ZRK21HpIJXlgfVv7slwh/1bD/BUQGvQDyjl+zuC PwrnwjTu6Nc6s5GhfPmmH+jDgWf/O6KtlwUpJuqFbNliGiAdXZYGi6IuygttDgS+OJX1 xSfg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.30.36 with SMTP id p4mr8012820igh.87.1440083764192; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 08:16:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.79.107.196 with HTTP; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 08:16:04 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A659@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A659@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 08:16:04 -0700 Message-ID: From: John Strassner To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" , John Strassner Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bd75262362dba051dbfa1c3 Archived-At: Cc: Michael Richardson , "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , Anima WG Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 15:16:10 -0000 --047d7bd75262362dba051dbfa1c3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I absolutely agree. However, note that SUPA (and TMF ZOOM, and DEN-ng) all share the same design: There is an abstract top layer that defines common policy concepts There are then two sub-layers (in SUPA, 4 in DEN-ng) that define imperative and declarative policy This enables declarative to call imperative, and vice-versa, because they share common concepts, representation, and structure. In my vision, the top-level of the policy continuum is declarative. That's because the actor is either a user or an operator. Lower levels have different actors (e.g., app developers or device admins) whose job is to translate intent to implement policy. Even after 18 years, I also believe that the Policy Continuum is a vital part of autonomics. However, let's agree on declarative first. :-) regards, John On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 1:58 AM, Michael Behringer (mbehring) < mbehring@cisco.com> wrote: > To me it is clear that ANIMA Intent is declarative. It describes the > desired outcome, not the way to get to it. That=E2=80=99s exactly what Au= tonomics > is all about, in fact. Different devices have different way to achieve > things, different capabilities. In an imperative approach those different > ways and capabilities would have to be expressed. > > > > The reason the industry is having trouble with ACL management is exactly > because it is imperative. It=E2=80=99s just the wrong approach for most u= se cases. > > > > Autonomics aims to abstract away device specifics and to provide one > higher level view of the network. That=E2=80=99s exactly the declarative = approach. > I really hope we have agreement on that. > > > > Disclaimer: For practical reasons (device capabilities) it may well be > required for some time to do some hacks in Intent that are imperative. As > long as we all understand it=E2=80=99s a temporary hack, and are explicit= about it, > that=E2=80=99s ok. > > > > So, do we agree that Intent is declarative? Any objections? We should > really get agreement on that=E2=80=A6 > > > > Michael > > > > *From:* Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *John > Strassner > *Sent:* 20 August 2015 04:53 > *To:* Toerless Eckert (eckert); John Strassner > *Cc:* Michael Richardson; Anima WG > *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents > > > > Hi Toerless, > > > > I don't think it is that simple, unfortunately. Let's say that a NOC > > operator wants to issue something like the following: > > > > "Any CPU in any VM whose utilization is > 70% should be > > load-balanced." > > > > The imperative version is, well, ugly: > > > > 1) First, you have to translate what this means into a form > > that a device could consume. This isn't particularly hard > > in this example, but it still has to be done. > > 2) If the policy repository did not have a matching rule, > > then you have to build one. But, how do you find every > > device that should be affected? Even if we change the > > rule to make it more explicit (e.g., s./CPU/router CPU), > > this is a nightmare, because you now need to look at > > the topology and build n of these rules just to do the > > check, and some smaller number to do the load-balancing. > > 3) If the policy repository does have matches, how do you > > know that they cover all of the cases? > > > > In contrast, the declarative version is trivial: just do a distributed > > transitive closure which finds all of the devices that meet the > > criteria, and then apply the load balancing to this set. > > > > So, in theory, you could use declarative to identify what > > devices you could then apply imperative policies to. > > > > In contrast, setting an ACL would be trivial with imperative, > > but much more difficult with declarative (because you would > > have to translate the declarative policy to something the > > device could consume). > > > > This is likely one reason I have gray hair. > > > > regards, > > John > > > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Toerless Eckert (eckert) < > eckert@cisco.com> wrote: > > Does supa have opinions about the reaction time of imperative logic ? If > it wants to support fast reaction, that would then imply the logic has to > run in eg: the routers as opposed to an sdn controller. > > > > I am also not sure i could decide between declarative and imperative... i= s > an acces list imperative ? Is the name of a well known access list > declarative ? > > > > Toerless > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my Samsung Captivate Glide on AT&T > > > John Strassner wrote: > > Hi Michael, > > > > I've been involved in SUPA, but also in ANIMA; here is my perspective: > > > > I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match > > > how we envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs. > > > > > > I'm not sure what is envisioned with intent in ANIMA; I have > > previously posted that I don't think that there is enough > > detail on what intent is and what it is supposed to do in ANIMA. > > > > > > > In particular, the model that is envisioned is far more SDN-like; > > > that is with a uber-intelligent centralized command and control > > > system that interprets SUPA Intents into things like Virtual Private > > > Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various things like > > > YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other > > > data models) > > > > > > I'm personally not a big SDN fan for a number of reasons, and at > > least in the I-Ds that I've written for SUPA, that is far from the > > vision that I have had. But this is just my opinion; others may differ. > > > > SUPA defines an information model (i.e., a model that is > > independent of language, protocol, and repository) that consists > > of three pieces: > > > > 1) generic policy concepts (e.g., the target of a policy, and > > how policy is represented and structured) > > 2) an imperative model (i.e., event-condition-action) that is > > derived from (1) > > 3) a declarative model (i.e., propositional or first order logic) > > that is also derived from (1) > > > > This structure enables sets of policies to be defined, where a > > declarative policy could then trigger the evaluation of > > declarative and/or imperative policies, and vice-versa. > > > > I **think** that in ANIMA, the assumption has been that intent > > should be declarative in nature. Please correct me if I am wrong. > > Please also realize that SUPA is both more than this, and > > models declarative policy as formal logic. This has a large > > number of advantages, especially for autonomics; please let > > me know if these are not obvious. > > > > > It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed > > > to cross-AS boundaries, but it seems like they could easily > > > do this. > > > > > > Indeed, they are. In my policy work, there is the concept of a > > policy domain, which is any domain whose entities are > > governed by a common set of policies. So the concept is > > actually broader than just ASs. > > > > > It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for > > > SUPA to be able to implement policies, but that's an > > > operator convenience. They could equally well use other > > > (more expensive!) management networks. > > > > > > Michael Behringer and I (and others, but I'm old so I have > > now forgotten who, sorry!) talked about this at IETF92. > > FOCALE (my autonomic architecture) chose the latter > > (mainly because ACP did not exist!) and I reflected that I > > wished I had thought of doing something like ACP. I feel > > that this would have made FOCALE more powerful and > > robust. > > > > > In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... > > > I don't think anyone overstated the situation, but I think > > > that the message that ANIMA Intents !=3D SUPA Intents > > > was too understated. > > > > > > I have not seen ANIMA intent formally defined. I think it > > would be interesting to determine first, if ANIMA intent > > should use declarative logic or not (besides SUPA, > > ONF, OpenStack Congress, and to an extent, ODL GBP > > all use declarative logic), and second, if ANIMA intent > > is not going to use declarative logic, then why not? > > > > > Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) points > > > on the list to > > IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo > > > > > > Note that NEMO says that they are defining a declarative > > policy, but in reality, NEMO implements this with imperative > > (i.e., condition-action) constructs. > > > > > > It seems that there ought to be significant overlap, and > > > yet I don't see it. > > > > > > IF ANIMA intent decides to use declarative logic or > > imperative logic (in the form of event-condition-action), then I > > would hope that the two indeed overlap. However, until > > ANIMA formally defines what intent is, it is impossible to say. > > > > > > regards, > > John > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 12:50 PM, Michael Richardson < > mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote: > > > {intentionally not cross-posted to SUPA} > > While working on other things today (and being at home with a pink-eyed > kid), > I found the tab that was open to watch the IETF93 SUPA BOF. > > I also had saved ~80 emails from the SUPA list to read. > I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match how we > envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs. In particular, the model that > is envisioned is far more SDN-like; that is with a uber-intelligent > centralized command and control system that interprets SUPA Intents into > things like Virtual Private Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various > things like YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other data models= ) > > It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed to cross-AS > boundaries, but it seems like they could easily do this. > > It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for SUPA to be able t= o > implement policies, but that's an operator convenience. They could equal= ly > well use other (more expensive!) management networks. > > In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... I don't think > anyone overstated the situation, but I think that the message that ANIMA > Intents !=3D SUPA Intents was too understated. > > Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) points on the list to > IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo > > There was a SUPA telecon yesterday morning, but I had a nomcom call, > so I missed it. It seems that there ought to be significant overlap, > and yet I don't see it. > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > > > > > -- > > regards, > > John > > > > > -- > > regards, > > John > --=20 regards, John --047d7bd75262362dba051dbfa1c3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I absolutely agree.
However, note that SUPA= (and TMF ZOOM, and DEN-ng) all share the same design:

=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0There is an abstract top layer that defines common p= olicy concepts
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0There are then two sub-layers (i= n SUPA, 4 in DEN-ng) that define imperative and declarative policy

This enables declarative to call imperative, and vice-vers= a, because they share common concepts, representation, and structure.
=

In my vision, the top-level of the policy continuum is = declarative. That's because the actor is either a user or an operator. = Lower levels have different actors (e.g., app developers or device admins) = whose job is to translate intent to implement policy.

<= div>Even after 18 years, I also believe that the Policy Continuum is a vita= l part of autonomics. However, let's agree on declarative first. :-)

regards,
John

On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 1:58 AM, M= ichael Behringer (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com> wrote:
=

= To me it is clear that ANIMA Intent is decl= arative. It describes the desired outcome, not the way to get to it. That=E2=80=99s exactly what Autonomics is all about, in fact. Different de= vices have different way to achieve things, different capabilities. In an i= mperative approach those different ways and capabilities would have to be e= xpressed.

= =C2=A0

= The reason the industry is having trouble w= ith ACL management is exactly because it is imperative. It=E2=80=99s just t= he wrong approach for most use cases.

= =C2=A0

= Autonomics aims to abstract away device spe= cifics and to provide one higher level view of the network. That=E2=80=99s exactly the declarative approach. I really hope we have agreement on that.=

= =C2=A0

= Disclaimer: For practical reasons (device c= apabilities) it may well be required for some time to do some hacks in Intent that are imperative. As long as we all understand it=E2=80=99s a= temporary hack, and are explicit about it, that=E2=80=99s ok.

= =C2=A0

= So, do we agree that Intent is declarative?= Any objections? We should really get agreement on that=E2=80=A6

= =C2=A0

= Michael

= =C2=A0

From: Anima [mailto:= anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf O= f John Strassner
Sent: 20 August 2015 04:53 To: Toerless Eckert (eckert)= ; John Strassner
Cc: Michael Richardson; Anim= a WG
Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the= Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents

=C2=A0

Hi Toerless,

=C2=A0

I don't think it is that simple, unfortunately. Le= t's say that a NOC

operator wants to issue something like the following:<= u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Any CPU in any VM whose utilization= is=C2=A0> 70% should be

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 load-balanced."<= /span>

=C2=A0

The imperative version is, well, ugly:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 1) First, you have to translate what this= means into a form

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 that a device cou= ld consume. This isn't particularly hard

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0in this exam= ple, but it still has to be done.

=C2=A0=C2=A0 2) If the policy repository did not have = a matching rule,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 then you have to = build one. But, how do you find every

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 device that shoul= d be affected? Even if we change the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 rule to make it m= ore explicit (e.g., s./CPU/router CPU),

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 this is a nightma= re, because you now need to look at

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the topology and = build n of these rules just to do the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 check, and some s= maller number to do the load-balancing.

=C2=A0=C2=A0 3) If the policy repository does have mat= ches, how do you

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 know that they co= ver all of the cases?

=C2=A0

In contrast, the declarative version is trivial: just = do a distributed

transitive closure which finds all of the devices that= meet the

criteria, and then apply the load balancing to this se= t.

=C2=A0

So, in theory, you could use declarative to identify w= hat

devices you could then apply imperative policies to.

=C2=A0

In contrast, setting an ACL would be trivial with impe= rative,

but much more difficult with declarative (because you = would

have to translate the declarative policy to something = the

device could consume).

=C2=A0

This is likely one reason I have gray hair.<= /u>

=C2=A0

regards,

John

=C2=A0

On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Toerless Eckert (ecke= rt) <eckert@cisco.= com> wrote:

Does supa have opinions about the reaction time of imp= erative logic ? If it wants to support fast reaction, that would then imply= the logic has to run in eg: the routers as opposed to an sdn controller.

=C2=A0

I am also not sure i could decide between declarative = and imperative... is an acces list imperative ? Is the name of a well known= access list declarative ?

=C2=A0

Toerless=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Sent from my Sams= ung Captivate Glide on AT&T


John Strassner <= strazpdj@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Michael,

=C2=A0

I've been involved in SUPA, but also in ANIMA; her= e is my perspective:


> I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match

>=C2=A0how we envision Intents to work with ANIMA A= SAs.

=C2=A0

<jcs>

I'm not sure what is envisioned with intent in ANI= MA; I have

previously posted that I don't think that there is= enough

detail on what intent is and what it is supposed to do= in ANIMA.

</jcs>

=C2=A0

> In particular, the model that is envisioned is fa= r more SDN-like;

>=C2=A0that is with a uber-intelligent centralized = command and control

>=C2=A0system that interprets SUPA Intents into thi= ngs like Virtual Private

> Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various thing= s like

> YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other=

> data models)

=C2=A0

<jcs>

I'm personally not a big SDN fan for a number of r= easons, and at

least in the I-Ds that I've written for SUPA, that= is far=C2=A0from the

vision that I have had. But this is just my opinion; o= thers may differ.

=C2=A0

SUPA defines an information model (i.e., a model that = is

independent of=C2=A0language, protocol, and repository= ) that consists

of three pieces:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 1) generic policy concepts (e.g., the tar= get of a policy, and

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 how policy is rep= resented and structured)

=C2=A0=C2=A0 2)=C2=A0an imperative model (i.e., event-= condition-action) that is

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 derived from (1)<= u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0 3) a declarative model (i.e., proposition= al=C2=A0or first order logic)

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 that is also deri= ved from (1)

=C2=A0

This structure enables sets of policies to be defined,= where a

declarative policy could=C2=A0then trigger the evaluat= ion of

declarative and/or imperative policies, and vice-versa= .

=C2=A0

I **think** that in ANIMA, the assumption has been tha= t intent

should be=C2=A0declarative in nature. Please correct m= e if I am wrong.

Please also=C2=A0realize that SUPA is both more than t= his, and

models declarative policy as formal=C2=A0logic. This h= as a large

number of advantages, especially for autonomics; pleas= e let

me know if these are not obvious.=

</jcs>

>=C2=A0It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed=

>=C2=A0to cross-AS boundaries, but it seems like th= ey could easily

> do this.

=C2=A0

<jcs>

Indeed, they are. In my policy work, there is the conc= ept of a

policy domain, which is any domain whose entities=C2= =A0are

governed by a common set of policies. So the concept i= s

actually broader than just ASs.

</jcs>

>=C2=A0It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for

> SUPA to be able to implement policies, but that&#= 39;s an

> operator convenience.=C2=A0 They could equally we= ll use other

>=C2=A0(more expensive!) management networks.

=C2=A0

<jcs>

Michael Behringer and I=C2=A0(and others, but I'm = old so I have

now forgotten who, sorry!) talked about this at=C2=A0I= ETF92.

FOCALE (my autonomic architecture) chose the latter=

(mainly because ACP did not exist!) and I reflected th= at=C2=A0I

wished I had thought of doing something like ACP. I fe= el

that this would have made FOCALE more powerful and

robust.

</jcs>

>=C2=A0In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA...=

>=C2=A0I don't think anyone overstated the situ= ation, but I think

>=C2=A0that the message that ANIMA Intents !=3D SUP= A Intents

>=C2=A0was too understated.

=C2=A0

<jcs>

I have not seen ANIMA intent formally defined. I think= it

would be interesting to=C2=A0determine first, if ANIMA= intent

should use declarative logic or=C2=A0not (besides SUPA= ,

ONF,=C2=A0OpenStack Congress, and to an extent, ODL GB= P

all use declarative logic), and second, if=C2=A0ANIMA = intent

is not going to use=C2=A0declarative logic, then why n= ot?

</jcs>

>=C2=A0Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) points=

>=C2=A0on the list to
>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo

=C2=A0

<jcs>

Note that NEMO says that they are=C2=A0defining a decl= arative

policy, but in reality, NEMO implements this with impe= rative

(i.e., condition-action) constructs.

</jcs>


> It seems that there ought to be significant overlap,=C2=A0and <= u>

> yet I don't see it.

=C2=A0

<jcs>

IF ANIMA intent decides to use declarative logic or

imperative logic (in the form of event-condition-actio= n), then I

would hope that the two indeed overlap. However, until=

ANIMA formally defines what intent is, it is impossibl= e to say.

</jcs>

=C2=A0

regards,

John

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 12:50 PM, Michael Richardson &= lt;mcr+ietf@sand= elman.ca> wrote:


{intentionally not cross-posted to SUPA}

While working on other things today (and being at home with a pink-eyed kid= ),
I found the tab that was open to watch the IETF93 SUPA BOF.

I also had saved ~80 emails from the SUPA list to read.
I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match how we
envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs.=C2=A0 In particular, the model th= at
is envisioned is far more SDN-like; that is with a uber-intelligent
centralized command and control system that interprets SUPA Intents into things like Virtual Private Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various
things like YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other data models)<= br>
It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed to cross-= AS
boundaries, but it seems like they could easily do this.

It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for SUPA to be able to<= br> implement policies, but that's an operator convenience.=C2=A0 They coul= d equally
well use other (more expensive!) management networks.

In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... I don't think anyone overstated the situation, but I think that the message that ANIMA Intents !=3D SUPA Intents was too understated.

Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) points on the list to =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo

There was a SUPA telecon yesterday morning, but I had a nomcom call,
so I missed it.=C2=A0 It seems that there ought to be significant overlap,<= br> and yet I don't see it.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
=C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-




_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima




--

regards,

John




--

regards,

John




--
regards,
John
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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:CY1PR09MB0922; H:CY1PR09MB0922.namprd09.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: mitre.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:23 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: mitre.org X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 20 Aug 2015 15:20:19.3389 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: c620dc48-1d50-4952-8b39-df4d54d74d82 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY1PR09MB0922 Archived-At: Cc: Duzongpeng , Michael Richardson , "Jason Coleman \(colemaj\)" , Anima WG Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 15:20:35 -0000 [Lurker alert!] John just wrote on a related posting: "If you want simplicity, then the easiest way to build that is to have a mo= del that facilitates translation from some high-level form to an intermedia= te form that the system understands." Simplicity is required. The model that facilitates translation is required = because that is the way the world works from (declarative) high-level busin= ess policies to (imperative) executable configuration. The Policy Continuum= is one such translation model that I will use for reference purposes here. One potential problem I see with this overall discussion (not Toerless' pos= ting immediately below, which is very helpful in my judgment) is that the m= atter of declarative and imperative policies is not, in the general end-to-= end PBM case, an either/or situation: - Imperative is needed at the policy execution endpoint (roughly the "de= vice" and "instance" views of the policy continuum) -- even though that mig= ht be "hidden" to a greater or lesser degree. - Declarative is needed at the policy creation point (roughly the "busin= ess", "system", and "admin" views of the policy continuum). The "dividing line" in the middle of the continuum is not clear-cut ... it = is very jagged, with spikes of declarative going farther "down" and spikes = of imperative going farther "up" ... but a lot more of the latter than the = former. And that's the crux of the matter. We have never standardized decla= rative at the level that it is needed and pushing imperative too far up the= continuum ultimately becomes counterproductive. Autonomic solutions of any kind are attempts to shorten the distance betwee= n the declarative and imperative endpoints, usually via greater degrees of = "hidden" stuff. Shortening that distance is a good thing but -- to be done = correctly (esp. for uptake) -- depends (among other things) on (1) a soluti= on to the declarative problem and (2) transparency on the imperative side. We have never effectively standardized the declarative capability for polic= y-based network management (PBNM, using a very liberal meaning for "network= management" here). That is a show-stopper requirement. If we don't do that= , we will just produce a new breed of partial solutions, resulting ultimate= ly in more fragmentation and operational inefficiency due mainly from the l= arge "expression gap" between how business decision-makers think and speak = and how network technologists think and build. I was really hoping that SUPA would tackle the declarative problem head on = and not confound things with the imperative problem as well. I am not convi= nced that there should be one standard model for both at this stage. Impera= tive technology is widely deployed already (and growing constantly) ... of = necessity. We've been able to survive without enabling the declarative capa= bility, but that has not produced optimal PBNM solutions -- by a long shot!= -- and is becoming ever less tenable as the scope, scale, and pace of requ= irements continue to increase at growing rates. Regardless, ANIMA needs the declarative solution that SUPA (and/or IBNEMO) = will provide. Avanti, BobN -----Original Message----- From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Toerless Eckert (e= ckert) Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2015 10:33 AM To: Michael Behringer (mbehring) Cc: Duzongpeng ; Michael Richardson ; Jason Coleman (colemaj) ; Anima WG ; John Strassner Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents The question really is what the requirements are to support us trying to ha= ve an opinion about intent (in anima). Systems to build more intelligent networks start to incooperate a whole sle= w of layers/concepts and intent is thrown around everywhere. Then you have = big data and intent is expressed in that context, and you have semantic rea= soners trying to fulfill intent and so on and so forth. IMHO, anima would do well try to figure out what problems exist outside ani= ma in the IETF and how anima can help. In the same was as more shorter term= in bootstrap, this could longer term (re-chartering) apply to stuff around= intent. IMHO, it seems we already want to break up a system into components we call= ASAs, and Laurent has started to explain in his draft how multiple ASA nee= d coordination, and the way i read it, that would come through appropriate = declarative information that lays out eg: dependencies,which can then be re= solved. I am not sure if these dependencies are intent, but they are clearl= y important declarative informatoin we need to tackle once we deal with ASA= s. Cheers Toerless On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 12:03:08PM +0000, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrot= e: > Probably we need to decide on a case-by-case basis. If (!) we allow imper= ative statements (I???d still like to see why we couldn???t do it declarati= ve first), I???d like a way to separate them out logically in the structure= of whichever encoding we???ll use. At least we can then keep the ???clean?= ?? Intent separate from temporary workarounds. >=20 > Michael >=20 > From: Duzongpeng [mailto:duzongpeng@huawei.com] > Sent: 20 August 2015 13:29 > To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); Jason Coleman (colemaj); John=20 > Strassner; Toerless Eckert (eckert) > Cc: Michael Richardson; Anima WG > Subject: RE: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents >=20 > Hi Michael Behringer: >=20 > I agree that declarative intent has advantages. >=20 > But IMO, in the beginning, we should start defining intent using the simp= lest way no matter the intent is imperative or declarative. >=20 > Perhaps in future, when the autonomic node is intelligent enough= to understand the declarative intent, we can replace all the imperative on= es. >=20 > However in this time, we should not preclude imperative intents. >=20 > Of course, in your example, ???Device x, do y???, this kind of Imperative= intent should be avoided. >=20 > Best Regartds > Zongpeng Du >=20 >=20 > From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael=20 > Behringer (mbehring) > Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2015 6:54 PM > To: Jason Coleman (colemaj); John Strassner; Toerless Eckert (eckert) > Cc: Michael Richardson; Anima WG > Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents >=20 > My view: Let???s keep intent purely declarative. If you need to support i= mperative concepts, do this through traditional methods, like CLI, netconf,= etc. >=20 > Imperative says: Device x, do y. To me, that is not autonomic. And we sho= uldn???t pretend it is. >=20 > Now, this is a bit of a purist view, and I???ve heard comments along the = lines: ???well, if we have this nice Intent concept, we want to use it for = everything???. I???d rather keep it separate, but that is just a personal o= pinion of course ??? (A strong one though! ??? >=20 > Michael >=20 > From: Jason Coleman (colemaj) > Sent: 20 August 2015 12:18 > To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); John Strassner; Toerless Eckert=20 > (eckert) > Cc: Michael Richardson; Anima WG > Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents >=20 > Why not allow both declarative and imperative in the structure of ANIMA a= nd the delivery through and by the ACP and GRASP. > How the Intent is then used by the end node is up to the developer of tha= t node at that point. > The node could be developed to only digest declarative or always allow de= clarative and only imperative for a discreet set of items that it supports = in that regard. >=20 > -- > Jason Coleman CCIE#12069 > jmcoleman@cisco.com > phone: +1 512-340-3134 > Technical Lead Engineer CMS >=20 > This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole = use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, distribution or disclosure = by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient (or= authorized to receive for the recipient), please contact the sender by rep= ly email and delete all copies of this message. > For corporate legal information go to: > http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/index.html >=20 >=20 > From: Anima on behalf of "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" > Date: Thursday, August 20, 2015 at 3:58 AM > To: John Strassner, "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" > Cc: Michael Richardson, Anima WG > Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents >=20 > To me it is clear that ANIMA Intent is declarative. It describes the desi= red outcome, not the way to get to it. That???s exactly what Autonomics is = all about, in fact. Different devices have different way to achieve things,= different capabilities. In an imperative approach those different ways and= capabilities would have to be expressed. >=20 > The reason the industry is having trouble with ACL management is exactly = because it is imperative. It???s just the wrong approach for most use cases= . >=20 > Autonomics aims to abstract away device specifics and to provide one high= er level view of the network. That???s exactly the declarative approach. I = really hope we have agreement on that. >=20 > Disclaimer: For practical reasons (device capabilities) it may well be re= quired for some time to do some hacks in Intent that are imperative. As lon= g as we all understand it???s a temporary hack, and are explicit about it, = that???s ok. >=20 > So, do we agree that Intent is declarative? Any objections? We should rea= lly get agreement on that??? >=20 > Michael >=20 > From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of John=20 > Strassner > Sent: 20 August 2015 04:53 > To: Toerless Eckert (eckert); John Strassner > Cc: Michael Richardson; Anima WG > Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents >=20 > Hi Toerless, >=20 > I don't think it is that simple, unfortunately. Let's say that a NOC=20 > operator wants to issue something like the following: >=20 > "Any CPU in any VM whose utilization is > 70% should be > load-balanced." >=20 > The imperative version is, well, ugly: >=20 > 1) First, you have to translate what this means into a form > that a device could consume. This isn't particularly hard > in this example, but it still has to be done. > 2) If the policy repository did not have a matching rule, > then you have to build one. But, how do you find every > device that should be affected? Even if we change the > rule to make it more explicit (e.g., s./CPU/router CPU), > this is a nightmare, because you now need to look at > the topology and build n of these rules just to do the > check, and some smaller number to do the load-balancing. > 3) If the policy repository does have matches, how do you > know that they cover all of the cases? >=20 > In contrast, the declarative version is trivial: just do a distributed=20 > transitive closure which finds all of the devices that meet the=20 > criteria, and then apply the load balancing to this set. >=20 > So, in theory, you could use declarative to identify what devices you=20 > could then apply imperative policies to. >=20 > In contrast, setting an ACL would be trivial with imperative, but much=20 > more difficult with declarative (because you would have to translate=20 > the declarative policy to something the device could consume). >=20 > This is likely one reason I have gray hair. >=20 > regards, > John >=20 > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Toerless Eckert (eckert) > wrote: > Does supa have opinions about the reaction time of imperative logic ? If = it wants to support fast reaction, that would then imply the logic has to r= un in eg: the routers as opposed to an sdn controller. >=20 > I am also not sure i could decide between declarative and imperative... i= s an acces list imperative ? Is the name of a well known access list declar= ative ? >=20 > Toerless >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Sent from my Samsung Captivate Glide on AT&T >=20 > John Strassner > wrote: > Hi Michael, >=20 > I've been involved in SUPA, but also in ANIMA; here is my perspective: >=20 > > I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match how=20 > > we envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs. >=20 > > I'm not sure what is envisioned with intent in ANIMA; I have=20 > previously posted that I don't think that there is enough detail on=20 > what intent is and what it is supposed to do in ANIMA. > >=20 > > In particular, the model that is envisioned is far more SDN-like;=20 > > that is with a uber-intelligent centralized command and control=20 > > system that interprets SUPA Intents into things like Virtual Private=20 > > Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various things like=20 > > YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other data models) >=20 > > I'm personally not a big SDN fan for a number of reasons, and at least=20 > in the I-Ds that I've written for SUPA, that is far from the vision=20 > that I have had. But this is just my opinion; others may differ. >=20 > SUPA defines an information model (i.e., a model that is independent=20 > of language, protocol, and repository) that consists of three pieces: >=20 > 1) generic policy concepts (e.g., the target of a policy, and > how policy is represented and structured) > 2) an imperative model (i.e., event-condition-action) that is > derived from (1) > 3) a declarative model (i.e., propositional or first order logic) > that is also derived from (1) >=20 > This structure enables sets of policies to be defined, where a=20 > declarative policy could then trigger the evaluation of declarative=20 > and/or imperative policies, and vice-versa. >=20 > I **think** that in ANIMA, the assumption has been that intent should=20 > be declarative in nature. Please correct me if I am wrong. > Please also realize that SUPA is both more than this, and models=20 > declarative policy as formal logic. This has a large number of=20 > advantages, especially for autonomics; please let me know if these are=20 > not obvious. > >=20 > > It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed to=20 > > cross-AS boundaries, but it seems like they could easily do this. >=20 > > Indeed, they are. In my policy work, there is the concept of a policy=20 > domain, which is any domain whose entities are governed by a common=20 > set of policies. So the concept is actually broader than just ASs. > >=20 > > It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for SUPA to be=20 > > able to implement policies, but that's an operator convenience. =20 > > They could equally well use other (more expensive!) management=20 > > networks. >=20 > > Michael Behringer and I (and others, but I'm old so I have now=20 > forgotten who, sorry!) talked about this at IETF92. > FOCALE (my autonomic architecture) chose the latter (mainly because=20 > ACP did not exist!) and I reflected that I wished I had thought of=20 > doing something like ACP. I feel that this would have made FOCALE more=20 > powerful and robust. > >=20 > > In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... > > I don't think anyone overstated the situation, but I think that the=20 > > message that ANIMA Intents !=3D SUPA Intents was too understated. >=20 > > I have not seen ANIMA intent formally defined. I think it would be=20 > interesting to determine first, if ANIMA intent should use declarative=20 > logic or not (besides SUPA, ONF, OpenStack Congress, and to an extent,=20 > ODL GBP all use declarative logic), and second, if ANIMA intent is not=20 > going to use declarative logic, then why not? > >=20 > > Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) points on the list=20 > > to > > IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo >=20 > > Note that NEMO says that they are defining a declarative policy, but=20 > in reality, NEMO implements this with imperative (i.e.,=20 > condition-action) constructs. > >=20 > > It seems that there ought to be significant overlap, and yet I don't=20 > > see it. >=20 > > IF ANIMA intent decides to use declarative logic or imperative logic=20 > (in the form of event-condition-action), then I would hope that the=20 > two indeed overlap. However, until ANIMA formally defines what intent=20 > is, it is impossible to say. > >=20 > regards, > John >=20 >=20 > On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 12:50 PM, Michael Richardson > wrote: >=20 > {intentionally not cross-posted to SUPA} >=20 > While working on other things today (and being at home with a=20 > pink-eyed kid), I found the tab that was open to watch the IETF93 SUPA BO= F. >=20 > I also had saved ~80 emails from the SUPA list to read. > I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match how=20 > we envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs. In particular, the model=20 > that is envisioned is far more SDN-like; that is with a=20 > uber-intelligent centralized command and control system that=20 > interprets SUPA Intents into things like Virtual Private Cloud=20 > (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various things like=20 > YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other data models) >=20 > It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed to=20 > cross-AS boundaries, but it seems like they could easily do this. >=20 > It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for SUPA to be=20 > able to implement policies, but that's an operator convenience. They=20 > could equally well use other (more expensive!) management networks. >=20 > In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... I don't think=20 > anyone overstated the situation, but I think that the message that=20 > ANIMA Intents !=3D SUPA Intents was too understated. >=20 > Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) points on the list to > IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo >=20 > There was a SUPA telecon yesterday morning, but I had a nomcom call,=20 > so I missed it. It seems that there ought to be significant overlap,=20 > and yet I don't see it. >=20 > -- > Michael Richardson=20 > >, Sandelman=20 > Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- > regards, > John >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- > regards, > John -- --- Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com _______________________________________________ Anima mailing list Anima@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima From nobody Thu Aug 20 08:21:26 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3288F1ACEE6 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 08:21:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 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2015 15:21:18 +0000 From: "Natale, Bob" To: John Strassner , "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" Thread-Topic: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents Thread-Index: AQHQ2sH4DVvoijDJwE2GnQqQDYedlp4UBy0AgAAp14CAAGY+gIAAaXwAgAABYZA= Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 15:21:18 +0000 Message-ID: References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A659@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=RNATALE@mitre.org; x-originating-ip: [192.80.55.87] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; CY1PR09MB0922; 5:q/k7OAFv4d2sS9TasCZXgoIxziJ8IGxEMk+bqv8qDC6quGI/AVPEu3RXc77Gu7IwxRClWbbjAsrDSIESq74DgiS0rHoy62xkgprmeDeBwVNdSn79hMGZ5TIvUIKzFsAgTRBDdHbWrGgNqM6/N1RrGQ==; 24:UybOEr6atP7YyoJVv/xE+RIi7W2iMwoc0+uiP5qTx49t4esPxj2XIaEsSn/hFpLT3FQR7akYnqlKbAM25OE+6an5UX1MaR//ru2zJK3EnEc=; 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boundary="_000_CY1PR09MB09220C1C9A7D9668D0F6F91FA8660CY1PR09MB0922namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: mitre.org X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 20 Aug 2015 15:21:18.6533 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: c620dc48-1d50-4952-8b39-df4d54d74d82 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY1PR09MB0922 Archived-At: Cc: Michael Richardson , "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , Anima WG Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 15:21:25 -0000 --_000_CY1PR09MB09220C1C9A7D9668D0F6F91FA8660CY1PR09MB0922namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TJBjC6J1nh1Q for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 08:25:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x22b.google.com (mail-ig0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5B4961ACE37 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 08:25:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by igui7 with SMTP id i7so16907673igu.1 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 08:25:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=isUxCiv9nz2/EVF00kJh60AMVVhaxKe9RAds8LurLYc=; b=rZhKqpJvdAx37Upji6ZLBvJwK7Mx3u/7aGLx0jywivaBrWOD/5IpAZ9ocK0jM4Pv7e 1VA8V2YSzEgTtwZ+Gymt6WIk1qKmkFIZl76c82Hd+Bh+QSD1TvIBFn4I1O5ilNSNNRnJ y1vROklopIVuXSbMCIItEdSXB4LVAgvJtqomOSlN4PhKEesnrF3oLVsPxyV1DULJkr9N 3Rh14MPY9Vbnoc3MkjSPts8aAS/qyGp+5faTuT5/MhEtZK3iQEULskCcXW8skbqVFrKT GAWMzojARw+8yMrp80Frb8RaQ/7sBCcL7TNkMB4g2ziSLaxo//9hrKkZMODme8iGo9GG Jssg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.57.52 with SMTP id f20mr8638679igq.54.1440084330735; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 08:25:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.79.107.196 with HTTP; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 08:25:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A659@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 08:25:30 -0700 Message-ID: From: John Strassner To: "Jason Coleman (colemaj)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bdc113cfaf059051dbfc227 Archived-At: Cc: Michael Richardson , "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , Anima WG , "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 15:25:36 -0000 --047d7bdc113cfaf059051dbfc227 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jason, this is exactly what SUPA provides. That being said, I believe that there is a policy continuum: at the top of the continuum, you have mostly declarative policies; at the bottom of the continuum, you have low-level implementations that are mostly imperative (or perhaps functional if it's an advanced device). regards, John On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 3:18 AM, Jason Coleman (colemaj) wrote: > Why not allow both declarative and imperative in the structure of ANIMA > and the delivery through and by the ACP and GRASP. > > How the Intent is then used by the end node is up to the developer of tha= t > node at that point. > > The node could be developed to only digest declarative or always allow > declarative and only imperative for a discreet set of items that it > supports in that regard. > > > -- > *Jason Coleman CCIE#12069* > *jmcoleman@cisco.com * > phone: +1 512-340-3134 > Technical Lead Engineer CMS > > This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole > use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, distribution or disclosur= e > by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient (= or > authorized to receive for the recipient), please contact the sender by > reply email and delete all copies of this message. > For corporate legal information go to: > http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/index.html > > > From: Anima on behalf of "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" > Date: Thursday, August 20, 2015 at 3:58 AM > To: John Strassner, "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" > Cc: Michael Richardson, Anima WG > Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents > > To me it is clear that ANIMA Intent is declarative. It describes the > desired outcome, not the way to get to it. That=E2=80=99s exactly what Au= tonomics > is all about, in fact. Different devices have different way to achieve > things, different capabilities. In an imperative approach those different > ways and capabilities would have to be expressed. > > > > The reason the industry is having trouble with ACL management is exactly > because it is imperative. It=E2=80=99s just the wrong approach for most u= se cases. > > > > Autonomics aims to abstract away device specifics and to provide one > higher level view of the network. That=E2=80=99s exactly the declarative = approach. > I really hope we have agreement on that. > > > > Disclaimer: For practical reasons (device capabilities) it may well be > required for some time to do some hacks in Intent that are imperative. As > long as we all understand it=E2=80=99s a temporary hack, and are explicit= about it, > that=E2=80=99s ok. > > > > So, do we agree that Intent is declarative? Any objections? We should > really get agreement on that=E2=80=A6 > > > > Michael > > > > *From:* Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org ] *O= n > Behalf Of *John Strassner > *Sent:* 20 August 2015 04:53 > *To:* Toerless Eckert (eckert); John Strassner > *Cc:* Michael Richardson; Anima WG > *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents > > > > Hi Toerless, > > > > I don't think it is that simple, unfortunately. Let's say that a NOC > > operator wants to issue something like the following: > > > > "Any CPU in any VM whose utilization is > 70% should be > > load-balanced." > > > > The imperative version is, well, ugly: > > > > 1) First, you have to translate what this means into a form > > that a device could consume. This isn't particularly hard > > in this example, but it still has to be done. > > 2) If the policy repository did not have a matching rule, > > then you have to build one. But, how do you find every > > device that should be affected? Even if we change the > > rule to make it more explicit (e.g., s./CPU/router CPU), > > this is a nightmare, because you now need to look at > > the topology and build n of these rules just to do the > > check, and some smaller number to do the load-balancing. > > 3) If the policy repository does have matches, how do you > > know that they cover all of the cases? > > > > In contrast, the declarative version is trivial: just do a distributed > > transitive closure which finds all of the devices that meet the > > criteria, and then apply the load balancing to this set. > > > > So, in theory, you could use declarative to identify what > > devices you could then apply imperative policies to. > > > > In contrast, setting an ACL would be trivial with imperative, > > but much more difficult with declarative (because you would > > have to translate the declarative policy to something the > > device could consume). > > > > This is likely one reason I have gray hair. > > > > regards, > > John > > > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Toerless Eckert (eckert) < > eckert@cisco.com> wrote: > > Does supa have opinions about the reaction time of imperative logic ? If > it wants to support fast reaction, that would then imply the logic has to > run in eg: the routers as opposed to an sdn controller. > > > > I am also not sure i could decide between declarative and imperative... i= s > an acces list imperative ? Is the name of a well known access list > declarative ? > > > > Toerless > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my Samsung Captivate Glide on AT&T > > > John Strassner wrote: > > Hi Michael, > > > > I've been involved in SUPA, but also in ANIMA; here is my perspective: > > > > I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match > > > how we envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs. > > > > > > I'm not sure what is envisioned with intent in ANIMA; I have > > previously posted that I don't think that there is enough > > detail on what intent is and what it is supposed to do in ANIMA. > > > > > > > In particular, the model that is envisioned is far more SDN-like; > > > that is with a uber-intelligent centralized command and control > > > system that interprets SUPA Intents into things like Virtual Private > > > Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various things like > > > YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other > > > data models) > > > > > > I'm personally not a big SDN fan for a number of reasons, and at > > least in the I-Ds that I've written for SUPA, that is far from the > > vision that I have had. But this is just my opinion; others may differ. > > > > SUPA defines an information model (i.e., a model that is > > independent of language, protocol, and repository) that consists > > of three pieces: > > > > 1) generic policy concepts (e.g., the target of a policy, and > > how policy is represented and structured) > > 2) an imperative model (i.e., event-condition-action) that is > > derived from (1) > > 3) a declarative model (i.e., propositional or first order logic) > > that is also derived from (1) > > > > This structure enables sets of policies to be defined, where a > > declarative policy could then trigger the evaluation of > > declarative and/or imperative policies, and vice-versa. > > > > I **think** that in ANIMA, the assumption has been that intent > > should be declarative in nature. Please correct me if I am wrong. > > Please also realize that SUPA is both more than this, and > > models declarative policy as formal logic. This has a large > > number of advantages, especially for autonomics; please let > > me know if these are not obvious. > > > > > It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed > > > to cross-AS boundaries, but it seems like they could easily > > > do this. > > > > > > Indeed, they are. In my policy work, there is the concept of a > > policy domain, which is any domain whose entities are > > governed by a common set of policies. So the concept is > > actually broader than just ASs. > > > > > It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for > > > SUPA to be able to implement policies, but that's an > > > operator convenience. They could equally well use other > > > (more expensive!) management networks. > > > > > > Michael Behringer and I (and others, but I'm old so I have > > now forgotten who, sorry!) talked about this at IETF92. > > FOCALE (my autonomic architecture) chose the latter > > (mainly because ACP did not exist!) and I reflected that I > > wished I had thought of doing something like ACP. I feel > > that this would have made FOCALE more powerful and > > robust. > > > > > In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... > > > I don't think anyone overstated the situation, but I think > > > that the message that ANIMA Intents !=3D SUPA Intents > > > was too understated. > > > > > > I have not seen ANIMA intent formally defined. I think it > > would be interesting to determine first, if ANIMA intent > > should use declarative logic or not (besides SUPA, > > ONF, OpenStack Congress, and to an extent, ODL GBP > > all use declarative logic), and second, if ANIMA intent > > is not going to use declarative logic, then why not? > > > > > Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) points > > > on the list to > > IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo > > > > > > Note that NEMO says that they are defining a declarative > > policy, but in reality, NEMO implements this with imperative > > (i.e., condition-action) constructs. > > > > > > It seems that there ought to be significant overlap, and > > > yet I don't see it. > > > > > > IF ANIMA intent decides to use declarative logic or > > imperative logic (in the form of event-condition-action), then I > > would hope that the two indeed overlap. However, until > > ANIMA formally defines what intent is, it is impossible to say. > > > > > > regards, > > John > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 12:50 PM, Michael Richardson < > mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote: > > > {intentionally not cross-posted to SUPA} > > While working on other things today (and being at home with a pink-eyed > kid), > I found the tab that was open to watch the IETF93 SUPA BOF. > > I also had saved ~80 emails from the SUPA list to read. > I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match how we > envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs. In particular, the model that > is envisioned is far more SDN-like; that is with a uber-intelligent > centralized command and control system that interprets SUPA Intents into > things like Virtual Private Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various > things like YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other data models= ) > > It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed to cross-AS > boundaries, but it seems like they could easily do this. > > It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for SUPA to be able t= o > implement policies, but that's an operator convenience. They could equal= ly > well use other (more expensive!) management networks. > > In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... I don't think > anyone overstated the situation, but I think that the message that ANIMA > Intents !=3D SUPA Intents was too understated. > > Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) points on the list to > IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo > > There was a SUPA telecon yesterday morning, but I had a nomcom call, > so I missed it. It seems that there ought to be significant overlap, > and yet I don't see it. > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > > > > > -- > > regards, > > John > > > > > -- > > regards, > > John > --=20 regards, John --047d7bdc113cfaf059051dbfc227 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Jason,

this is exactly wh= at SUPA provides.

That being said, I believe that = there is a policy continuum: at the top of the continuum, you have mostly d= eclarative policies; at the bottom of the continuum, you have low-level imp= lementations that are mostly imperative (or perhaps functional if it's = an advanced device).

regards,
John
=

On Thu, Aug= 20, 2015 at 3:18 AM, Jason Coleman (colemaj) <colemaj@cisco.com> wrote:

Why not allow both declarative a= nd imperative in the structure of ANIMA and the delivery through and by the ACP and GRASP.

How the Intent is then used by t= he end node is up to the developer of that node at that point. =C2=A0

The node could be developed to o= nly digest declarative or always allow declarative and only imperative for a discreet set of items that it supports in that r= egard.


--=C2=A0
Jason Coleman= CCIE#12069
phone: +1 512-340= -3134
Technical Lead Engineer CMS

This email may contain confidential and privileged material for th= e sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, distribution or disc= losure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient (or authorized to receiv= e for the recipient), please contact the sender by reply email and delete a= ll copies of this message.


From: Anima on behalf of "Mich= ael Behringer (mbehring)"
Date: Thursday, August 20, 2015 at = 3:58 AM
To: John Strassner, "Toerless = Eckert (eckert)"
Cc: Michael Richardson, Anima WG Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intent= s we were looking for: SUPA Intents

= To me it is clear that ANIMA Intent is declarative. It describes th= e desired outcome, not the way to get to it. That=E2=80=99s exactly what Autonomics is all about, in fact. D= ifferent devices have different way to achieve things, different capabiliti= es. In an imperative approach those different ways and capabilities would h= ave to be expressed.

= =C2=A0

= The reason the industry is having trouble with ACL management is ex= actly because it is imperative. It=E2=80=99s just the wrong approach for most use cases.

= =C2=A0

= Autonomics aims to abstract away device specifics and to provide on= e higher level view of the network. That=E2=80=99s exactly the declarative approach. I really hope we have agr= eement on that.

= =C2=A0

= Disclaimer: For practical reasons (device capabilities) it may well= be required for some time to do some hacks in Intent that are imperative. As long as we all understand it= =E2=80=99s a temporary hack, and are explicit about it, that=E2=80=99s ok.

= =C2=A0

= So, do we agree that Intent is declarative? Any objections? We shou= ld really get agreement on that=E2=80=A6

= =C2=A0

= Michael

= =C2=A0

From: Anima [mailto:= anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of John Strassner<= br> Sent: 20 August 2015 04:53 To: Toerless Eckert (eckert)= ; John Strassner
Cc: Michael Richardson; Anim= a WG
Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the= Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents

=C2=A0

Hi Toerless,

=C2=A0

I don't think it is that simple, unfortunately. Le= t's say that a NOC

operator wants to issue something like the following:<= u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Any CPU in any VM whose utilization= is=C2=A0> 70% should be

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 load-balanced."<= /span>

=C2=A0

The imperative version is, well, ugly:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 1) First, you have to translate what this= means into a form

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 that a device cou= ld consume. This isn't particularly hard

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0in this exam= ple, but it still has to be done.

=C2=A0=C2=A0 2) If the policy repository did not have = a matching rule,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 then you have to = build one. But, how do you find every

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 device that shoul= d be affected? Even if we change the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 rule to make it m= ore explicit (e.g., s./CPU/router CPU),

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 this is a nightma= re, because you now need to look at

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the topology and = build n of these rules just to do the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 check, and some s= maller number to do the load-balancing.

=C2=A0=C2=A0 3) If the policy repository does have mat= ches, how do you

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 know that they co= ver all of the cases?

=C2=A0

In contrast, the declarative version is trivial: just = do a distributed

transitive closure which finds all of the devices that= meet the

criteria, and then apply the load balancing to this se= t.

=C2=A0

So, in theory, you could use declarative to identify w= hat

devices you could then apply imperative policies to.

=C2=A0

In contrast, setting an ACL would be trivial with impe= rative,

but much more difficult with declarative (because you = would

have to translate the declarative policy to something = the

device could consume).

=C2=A0

This is likely one reason I have gray hair.<= /u>

=C2=A0

regards,

John

=C2=A0

On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Toerless Eckert (ecke= rt) <eckert@cisco.= com> wrote:

Does supa have opinions about the reaction time of imp= erative logic ? If it wants to support fast reaction, that would then imply= the logic has to run in eg: the routers as opposed to an sdn controller.

=C2=A0

I am also not sure i could decide between declarative = and imperative... is an acces list imperative ? Is the name of a well known= access list declarative ?

=C2=A0

Toerless=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Sent from my Sams= ung Captivate Glide on AT&T


John Strassner <= strazpdj@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Michael,

=C2=A0

I've been involved in SUPA, but also in ANIMA; her= e is my perspective:


> I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match

>=C2=A0how we envision Intents to work with ANIMA A= SAs.

=C2=A0

<jcs>

I'm not sure what is envisioned with intent in ANI= MA; I have

previously posted that I don't think that there is= enough

detail on what intent is and what it is supposed to do= in ANIMA.

</jcs>

=C2=A0

> In particular, the model that is envisioned is fa= r more SDN-like;

>=C2=A0that is with a uber-intelligent centralized = command and control

>=C2=A0system that interprets SUPA Intents into thi= ngs like Virtual Private

> Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various thing= s like

> YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other=

> data models)

=C2=A0

<jcs>

I'm personally not a big SDN fan for a number of r= easons, and at

least in the I-Ds that I've written for SUPA, that= is far=C2=A0from the

vision that I have had. But this is just my opinion; o= thers may differ.

=C2=A0

SUPA defines an information model (i.e., a model that = is

independent of=C2=A0language, protocol, and repository= ) that consists

of three pieces:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 1) generic policy concepts (e.g., the tar= get of a policy, and

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 how policy is rep= resented and structured)

=C2=A0=C2=A0 2)=C2=A0an imperative model (i.e., event-= condition-action) that is

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 derived from (1)<= u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0 3) a declarative model (i.e., proposition= al=C2=A0or first order logic)

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 that is also deri= ved from (1)

=C2=A0

This structure enables sets of policies to be defined,= where a

declarative policy could=C2=A0then trigger the evaluat= ion of

declarative and/or imperative policies, and vice-versa= .

=C2=A0

I **think** that in ANIMA, the assumption has been tha= t intent

should be=C2=A0declarative in nature. Please correct m= e if I am wrong.

Please also=C2=A0realize that SUPA is both more than t= his, and

models declarative policy as formal=C2=A0logic. This h= as a large

number of advantages, especially for autonomics; pleas= e let

me know if these are not obvious.=

</jcs>

>=C2=A0It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed=

>=C2=A0to cross-AS boundaries, but it seems like th= ey could easily

> do this.

=C2=A0

<jcs>

Indeed, they are. In my policy work, there is the conc= ept of a

policy domain, which is any domain whose entities=C2= =A0are

governed by a common set of policies. So the concept i= s

actually broader than just ASs.

</jcs>

>=C2=A0It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for

> SUPA to be able to implement policies, but that&#= 39;s an

> operator convenience.=C2=A0 They could equally we= ll use other

>=C2=A0(more expensive!) management networks.

=C2=A0

<jcs>

Michael Behringer and I=C2=A0(and others, but I'm = old so I have

now forgotten who, sorry!) talked about this at=C2=A0I= ETF92.

FOCALE (my autonomic architecture) chose the latter=

(mainly because ACP did not exist!) and I reflected th= at=C2=A0I

wished I had thought of doing something like ACP. I fe= el

that this would have made FOCALE more powerful and

robust.

</jcs>

>=C2=A0In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA...=

>=C2=A0I don't think anyone overstated the situ= ation, but I think

>=C2=A0that the message that ANIMA Intents !=3D SUP= A Intents

>=C2=A0was too understated.

=C2=A0

<jcs>

I have not seen ANIMA intent formally defined. I think= it

would be interesting to=C2=A0determine first, if ANIMA= intent

should use declarative logic or=C2=A0not (besides SUPA= ,

ONF,=C2=A0OpenStack Congress, and to an extent, ODL GB= P

all use declarative logic), and second, if=C2=A0ANIMA = intent

is not going to use=C2=A0declarative logic, then why n= ot?

</jcs>

>=C2=A0Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) points=

>=C2=A0on the list to
>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo

=C2=A0

<jcs>

Note that NEMO says that they are=C2=A0defining a decl= arative

policy, but in reality, NEMO implements this with impe= rative

(i.e., condition-action) constructs.

</jcs>


> It seems that there ought to be significant overlap,=C2=A0and <= u>

> yet I don't see it.

=C2=A0

<jcs>

IF ANIMA intent decides to use declarative logic or

imperative logic (in the form of event-condition-actio= n), then I

would hope that the two indeed overlap. However, until=

ANIMA formally defines what intent is, it is impossibl= e to say.

</jcs>

=C2=A0

regards,

John

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 12:50 PM, Michael Richardson &= lt;mcr+ietf@sand= elman.ca> wrote:


{intentionally not cross-posted to SUPA}

While working on other things today (and being at home with a pink-eyed kid= ),
I found the tab that was open to watch the IETF93 SUPA BOF.

I also had saved ~80 emails from the SUPA list to read.
I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match how we
envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs.=C2=A0 In particular, the model th= at
is envisioned is far more SDN-like; that is with a uber-intelligent
centralized command and control system that interprets SUPA Intents into things like Virtual Private Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various
things like YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other data models)<= br>
It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed to cross-= AS
boundaries, but it seems like they could easily do this.

It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for SUPA to be able to<= br> implement policies, but that's an operator convenience.=C2=A0 They coul= d equally
well use other (more expensive!) management networks.

In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... I don't think anyone overstated the situation, but I think that the message that ANIMA Intents !=3D SUPA Intents was too understated.

Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) points on the list to =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo

There was a SUPA telecon yesterday morning, but I had a nomcom call,
so I missed it.=C2=A0 It seems that there ought to be significant overlap,<= br> and yet I don't see it.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
=C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-




_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima




--

regards,

John




--

regards,

John



--
regards,
John
--047d7bdc113cfaf059051dbfc227-- From nobody Thu Aug 20 08:30:25 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 757EF1ACEE9 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 08:30:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yU8Q6WF25UeR for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 08:30:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x236.google.com (mail-io0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D351B1ACEE5 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 08:30:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by iodv127 with SMTP id v127so50019204iod.3 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 08:30:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=7XCQQ6dWmw8jorfTz9PS8+l84t4n5TMyxm1fl5i85EY=; b=ZHVz3OQMJvdhy/6s2pXKyaoZ3UfQijU3j+7O4GOAQdegXz3HdMenuB6dHc35yE10yF yBI8baHlT1GxB6P4EHdcsFeR/Xq6ft+iEIuXTXHZtPdt2UN9RF/ZM7VwUhApNquBJD6N nby7r3813cmLqwLJaOSUtsd79DZP26xyAoRVhvXTGNNj3l1dlZEYFnXxkZAEC4Yj/WHf zivYE+zH0faOXOazLmzfBpEfN8y80iZISBSZ1tqEKFNj0iMPbD5qXp+/6SY4C61soJB9 2Pio70NEALwNRc5dXxT+eZeaHYcEkF6QUebKz1yLFYv0RhyP0d2cODMR8fqrNFh2TV+b v1XQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.14.12 with SMTP id 12mr3066476ioo.177.1440084618232; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 08:30:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.79.107.196 with HTTP; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 08:30:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A659@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A857@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 08:30:18 -0700 Message-ID: From: John Strassner To: Duzongpeng , John Strassner Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113fa9b01dc9cc051dbfd41a Archived-At: Cc: Michael Richardson , "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , "Jason Coleman \(colemaj\)" , Anima WG , "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 15:30:24 -0000 --001a113fa9b01dc9cc051dbfd41a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I disagree with Zongpeng and agree with Michael. I don't understand how you can use one type of imperative statement and allow others. This is like saying you can use a switch statement but not a while statement. I believe that you have a policy continuum, and declarative is mostly (or all) at the top, where you need abstraction. It MAY be easier to express other forms of commands (e.g., deontic logic) in a non-declarative way, which is why I said "mostly". That being said, in the autonomic systems I have built, it was 100% declarative at the top. The risk with not having a purist view is that you end up with a really bad language (and model). regards, John On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 4:29 AM, Duzongpeng wrote: > Hi Michael Behringer: > > > > I agree that declarative intent has advantages. > > > > But IMO, in the beginning, we should start defining intent using the > simplest way no matter the intent is imperative or declarative. > > > > Perhaps in future, when the autonomic node is intelligent enough > to understand the declarative intent, we can replace all the imperative > ones. > > > > However in this time, we should not preclude imperative intents. > > > > Of course, in your example, =E2=80=9CDevice x, do y=E2=80=9D, this kind o= f Imperative > intent should be avoided. > > > > Best Regartds > > Zongpeng Du > > > > > > *From:* Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Michael > Behringer (mbehring) > *Sent:* Thursday, August 20, 2015 6:54 PM > *To:* Jason Coleman (colemaj); John Strassner; Toerless Eckert (eckert) > *Cc:* Michael Richardson; Anima WG > *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents > > > > My view: Let=E2=80=99s keep intent purely declarative. If you need to sup= port > imperative concepts, do this through traditional methods, like CLI, > netconf, etc. > > > > Imperative says: Device x, do y. To me, that is not autonomic. And we > shouldn=E2=80=99t pretend it is. > > > > Now, this is a bit of a purist view, and I=E2=80=99ve heard comments alon= g the > lines: =E2=80=9Cwell, if we have this nice Intent concept, we want to use= it for > everything=E2=80=9D. I=E2=80=99d rather keep it separate, but that is jus= t a personal > opinion of course J (A strong one though! J > > > > Michael > > > > *From:* Jason Coleman (colemaj) > *Sent:* 20 August 2015 12:18 > *To:* Michael Behringer (mbehring); John Strassner; Toerless Eckert > (eckert) > *Cc:* Michael Richardson; Anima WG > *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents > > > > Why not allow both declarative and imperative in the structure of ANIMA > and the delivery through and by the ACP and GRASP. > > How the Intent is then used by the end node is up to the developer of tha= t > node at that point. > > The node could be developed to only digest declarative or always allow > declarative and only imperative for a discreet set of items that it > supports in that regard. > > > > -- > > *Jason Coleman CCIE#12069* > > *jmcoleman@cisco.com * > > phone: +1 512-340-3134 > > Technical Lead Engineer CMS > > > > This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole > use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, distribution or disclosur= e > by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient (= or > authorized to receive for the recipient), please contact the sender by > reply email and delete all copies of this message. > > For corporate legal information go to: > *http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/index.html > * > > > > > > *From: *Anima on behalf of "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" > *Date: *Thursday, August 20, 2015 at 3:58 AM > *To: *John Strassner, "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" > *Cc: *Michael Richardson, Anima WG > *Subject: *Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents > > > > To me it is clear that ANIMA Intent is declarative. It describes the > desired outcome, not the way to get to it. That=E2=80=99s exactly what Au= tonomics > is all about, in fact. Different devices have different way to achieve > things, different capabilities. In an imperative approach those different > ways and capabilities would have to be expressed. > > > > The reason the industry is having trouble with ACL management is exactly > because it is imperative. It=E2=80=99s just the wrong approach for most u= se cases. > > > > Autonomics aims to abstract away device specifics and to provide one > higher level view of the network. That=E2=80=99s exactly the declarative = approach. > I really hope we have agreement on that. > > > > Disclaimer: For practical reasons (device capabilities) it may well be > required for some time to do some hacks in Intent that are imperative. As > long as we all understand it=E2=80=99s a temporary hack, and are explicit= about it, > that=E2=80=99s ok. > > > > So, do we agree that Intent is declarative? Any objections? We should > really get agreement on that=E2=80=A6 > > > > Michael > > > > *From:* Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org ] *O= n > Behalf Of *John Strassner > *Sent:* 20 August 2015 04:53 > *To:* Toerless Eckert (eckert); John Strassner > *Cc:* Michael Richardson; Anima WG > *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents > > > > Hi Toerless, > > > > I don't think it is that simple, unfortunately. Let's say that a NOC > > operator wants to issue something like the following: > > > > "Any CPU in any VM whose utilization is > 70% should be > > load-balanced." > > > > The imperative version is, well, ugly: > > > > 1) First, you have to translate what this means into a form > > that a device could consume. This isn't particularly hard > > in this example, but it still has to be done. > > 2) If the policy repository did not have a matching rule, > > then you have to build one. But, how do you find every > > device that should be affected? Even if we change the > > rule to make it more explicit (e.g., s./CPU/router CPU), > > this is a nightmare, because you now need to look at > > the topology and build n of these rules just to do the > > check, and some smaller number to do the load-balancing. > > 3) If the policy repository does have matches, how do you > > know that they cover all of the cases? > > > > In contrast, the declarative version is trivial: just do a distributed > > transitive closure which finds all of the devices that meet the > > criteria, and then apply the load balancing to this set. > > > > So, in theory, you could use declarative to identify what > > devices you could then apply imperative policies to. > > > > In contrast, setting an ACL would be trivial with imperative, > > but much more difficult with declarative (because you would > > have to translate the declarative policy to something the > > device could consume). > > > > This is likely one reason I have gray hair. > > > > regards, > > John > > > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Toerless Eckert (eckert) < > eckert@cisco.com> wrote: > > Does supa have opinions about the reaction time of imperative logic ? If > it wants to support fast reaction, that would then imply the logic has to > run in eg: the routers as opposed to an sdn controller. > > > > I am also not sure i could decide between declarative and imperative... i= s > an acces list imperative ? Is the name of a well known access list > declarative ? > > > > Toerless > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my Samsung Captivate Glide on AT&T > > > John Strassner wrote: > > Hi Michael, > > > > I've been involved in SUPA, but also in ANIMA; here is my perspective: > > > > I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match > > > how we envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs. > > > > > > I'm not sure what is envisioned with intent in ANIMA; I have > > previously posted that I don't think that there is enough > > detail on what intent is and what it is supposed to do in ANIMA. > > > > > > > In particular, the model that is envisioned is far more SDN-like; > > > that is with a uber-intelligent centralized command and control > > > system that interprets SUPA Intents into things like Virtual Private > > > Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various things like > > > YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other > > > data models) > > > > > > I'm personally not a big SDN fan for a number of reasons, and at > > least in the I-Ds that I've written for SUPA, that is far from the > > vision that I have had. But this is just my opinion; others may differ. > > > > SUPA defines an information model (i.e., a model that is > > independent of language, protocol, and repository) that consists > > of three pieces: > > > > 1) generic policy concepts (e.g., the target of a policy, and > > how policy is represented and structured) > > 2) an imperative model (i.e., event-condition-action) that is > > derived from (1) > > 3) a declarative model (i.e., propositional or first order logic) > > that is also derived from (1) > > > > This structure enables sets of policies to be defined, where a > > declarative policy could then trigger the evaluation of > > declarative and/or imperative policies, and vice-versa. > > > > I **think** that in ANIMA, the assumption has been that intent > > should be declarative in nature. Please correct me if I am wrong. > > Please also realize that SUPA is both more than this, and > > models declarative policy as formal logic. This has a large > > number of advantages, especially for autonomics; please let > > me know if these are not obvious. > > > > > It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed > > > to cross-AS boundaries, but it seems like they could easily > > > do this. > > > > > > Indeed, they are. In my policy work, there is the concept of a > > policy domain, which is any domain whose entities are > > governed by a common set of policies. So the concept is > > actually broader than just ASs. > > > > > It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for > > > SUPA to be able to implement policies, but that's an > > > operator convenience. They could equally well use other > > > (more expensive!) management networks. > > > > > > Michael Behringer and I (and others, but I'm old so I have > > now forgotten who, sorry!) talked about this at IETF92. > > FOCALE (my autonomic architecture) chose the latter > > (mainly because ACP did not exist!) and I reflected that I > > wished I had thought of doing something like ACP. I feel > > that this would have made FOCALE more powerful and > > robust. > > > > > In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... > > > I don't think anyone overstated the situation, but I think > > > that the message that ANIMA Intents !=3D SUPA Intents > > > was too understated. > > > > > > I have not seen ANIMA intent formally defined. I think it > > would be interesting to determine first, if ANIMA intent > > should use declarative logic or not (besides SUPA, > > ONF, OpenStack Congress, and to an extent, ODL GBP > > all use declarative logic), and second, if ANIMA intent > > is not going to use declarative logic, then why not? > > > > > Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) points > > > on the list to > > IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo > > > > > > Note that NEMO says that they are defining a declarative > > policy, but in reality, NEMO implements this with imperative > > (i.e., condition-action) constructs. > > > > > > It seems that there ought to be significant overlap, and > > > yet I don't see it. > > > > > > IF ANIMA intent decides to use declarative logic or > > imperative logic (in the form of event-condition-action), then I > > would hope that the two indeed overlap. However, until > > ANIMA formally defines what intent is, it is impossible to say. > > > > > > regards, > > John > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 12:50 PM, Michael Richardson < > mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote: > > > {intentionally not cross-posted to SUPA} > > While working on other things today (and being at home with a pink-eyed > kid), > I found the tab that was open to watch the IETF93 SUPA BOF. > > I also had saved ~80 emails from the SUPA list to read. > I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match how we > envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs. In particular, the model that > is envisioned is far more SDN-like; that is with a uber-intelligent > centralized command and control system that interprets SUPA Intents into > things like Virtual Private Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various > things like YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other data models= ) > > It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed to cross-AS > boundaries, but it seems like they could easily do this. > > It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for SUPA to be able t= o > implement policies, but that's an operator convenience. They could equal= ly > well use other (more expensive!) management networks. > > In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... I don't think > anyone overstated the situation, but I think that the message that ANIMA > Intents !=3D SUPA Intents was too understated. > > Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) points on the list to > IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo > > There was a SUPA telecon yesterday morning, but I had a nomcom call, > so I missed it. It seems that there ought to be significant overlap, > and yet I don't see it. > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > > > > > -- > > regards, > > John > > > > > -- > > regards, > > John > --=20 regards, John --001a113fa9b01dc9cc051dbfd41a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I disagree with Zongpeng and agree with Michael.

I don't understand how you can use one type of imp= erative statement and allow others. This is like saying you can use a switc= h statement but not a while statement.

I believe t= hat you have a policy continuum, and declarative is mostly (or all) at the = top, where you need abstraction. It MAY be easier to express other forms of= commands (e.g., deontic logic) in a non-declarative way, which is why I sa= id "mostly". That being said, in the autonomic systems I have bui= lt, it was 100% declarative at the top.

The risk w= ith not having a purist view is that you end up with a really bad language = (and model).

regards,
John

On Thu, Aug 20, 201= 5 at 4:29 AM, Duzongpeng <duzongpeng@huawei.com> wrote:<= br>

Hi Michael Behringer:=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =

I agree that declarative intent has advantages.

=C2=A0

But IMO, in the beginning, we should start defining= intent using the simplest way no matter the intent is imperative or declara= tive.

=C2=A0

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Perhaps in future, when the a= utonomic node is intelligent enough to understand the declarative intent, w= e can replace all the imperative ones.

=C2=A0

However in this time, we should not preclude imperati= ve intents.

=C2=A0

Of course, in your example, =E2=80=9CDevice x, do y= =E2=80=9D, this kind of Imperative intent should be avoided.<= /span>

= =C2=A0

Bes= t Regartds

Zon= gpeng Du

= =C2=A0

= =C2=A0

From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Behringer (mbehring)
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2015 6:54 PM
To: Jason Coleman (colemaj); John Strassner; Toerless Eckert (eckert= )
Cc: Michael Richardson; Anima WG
Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Inten= ts

=C2=A0

My vi= ew: Let=E2=80=99s keep intent purely declarative. If you need to support im= perative concepts, do this through traditional methods, like CLI, netconf, etc.

=C2=A0

Imper= ative says: Device x, do y. To me, that is not autonomic. And we shouldn=E2= =80=99t pretend it is.

=C2=A0

Now, = this is a bit of a purist view, and I=E2=80=99ve heard comments along the l= ines: =E2=80=9Cwell, if we have this nice Intent concept, we want to use it= for everything=E2=80=9D. I=E2=80=99d rather keep it separate, but that is just= a personal opinion of course J=C2=A0 (A strong one though! J

=C2=A0

Micha= el

=C2=A0

From: Jason Coleman (colemaj)
Sent: 20 August 2015 12:18
To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); John Strassner; Toerless Eckert (e= ckert)
Cc: Michael Richardson; Anima WG
Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Inten= ts

=C2=A0

Why not allo= w both declarative and imperative in the structure of ANIMA and the deliver= y through and by the ACP and GRASP.

How the Inte= nt is then used by the end node is up to the developer of that node at that point. =C2=A0<= /u>

The node cou= ld be developed to only digest declarative or always allow declarative and only imperative for a discreet set of items that it supports in that regar= d.

= =C2=A0

--=C2=A0<= /u>

Jas= on Coleman CCIE#12069

phone: = +1 512-340-3134

Technical Lead = Engineer CMS

=C2=A0=

This= email may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole use of= the intended recipient. Any review, use, distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient (o= r authorized to receive for the recipient), please contact the sender by re= ply email and delete all copies of this message.

=C2= =A0

=C2= =A0

From: Anima on behalf of "Michael Behringe= r (mbehring)"
Date: Thursday, August 20, 2015 at 3:58 AM
To: John Strassner, "Toerless Eckert (eckert)"
Cc: Michael Richardson, Anima WG
Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Inten= ts

=C2= =A0

To me= it is clear that ANIMA Intent is declarative. It describes the desired out= come, not the way to get to it. That=E2=80=99s exactly what Autonomics is all about, in fact. Different devices have different way to achieve thi= ngs, different capabilities. In an imperative approach those different ways= and capabilities would have to be expressed.

=C2= =A0<= /p>

The r= eason the industry is having trouble with ACL management is exactly because= it is imperative. It=E2=80=99s just the wrong approach for most use cases.

=C2= =A0<= /p>

Auton= omics aims to abstract away device specifics and to provide one higher leve= l view of the network. That=E2=80=99s exactly the declarative approach. I really hope we have agreement on that.

=C2= =A0<= /p>

Discl= aimer: For practical reasons (device capabilities) it may well be required = for some time to do some hacks in Intent that are imperative. As long as we all understand it=E2=80=99s a temporary hack, and are explicit = about it, that=E2=80=99s ok.

=C2= =A0<= /p>

So, d= o we agree that Intent is declarative? Any objections? We should really get= agreement on that=E2=80=A6

=C2= =A0<= /p>

Micha= el

=C2= =A0<= /p>

From:= Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of John Strassner
Sent: 20 August 2015 04:53
To: Toerless Eckert (eckert); John Strassner
Cc: Michael Richardson; Anima WG
Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Inten= ts

=C2=A0=

Hi Toerle= ss,

=C2=A0=

I don'= ;t think it is that simple, unfortunately. Let's say that a NOC<= u>

operator = wants to issue something like the following:

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0=C2= =A0 "Any CPU in any VM whose utilization is=C2=A0> 70% should be=

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 load-balanced."

=C2=A0=

The imper= ative version is, well, ugly:

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0=C2= =A0 1) First, you have to translate what this means into a form

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 that a device could consume. This isn't par= ticularly hard

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0in this example, but it still has to be do= ne.

=C2=A0=C2= =A0 2) If the policy repository did not have a matching rule,=

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 then you have to build one. But, how do you fin= d every

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 device that should be affected? Even if we chan= ge the

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 rule to make it more explicit (e.g., s./CPU/rou= ter CPU),

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 this is a nightmare, because you now need to lo= ok at

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the topology and build n of these rules just to= do the

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 check, and some smaller number to do the load-b= alancing.

=C2=A0=C2= =A0 3) If the policy repository does have matches, how do you=

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 know that they cover all of the cases?

=C2=A0=

In contra= st, the declarative version is trivial: just do a distributed=

transitiv= e closure which finds all of the devices that meet the=

criteria,= and then apply the load balancing to this set.

=C2=A0=

So, in th= eory, you could use declarative to identify what

devices y= ou could then apply imperative policies to.

=C2=A0=

In contra= st, setting an ACL would be trivial with imperative,

but much = more difficult with declarative (because you would

have to t= ranslate the declarative policy to something the

device co= uld consume).

=C2=A0=

This is l= ikely one reason I have gray hair.

=C2=A0=

regards,<= u>

John

=C2=A0=

On Wed, A= ug 19, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Toerless Eckert (eckert) <eckert@cisco.com> wrote:

Does supa= have opinions about the reaction time of imperative logic ? If it wants to= support fast reaction, that would then imply the logic has to run in eg: t= he routers as opposed to an sdn controller.

=C2=A0=

I am also= not sure i could decide between declarative and imperative... is an acces = list imperative ? Is the name of a well known access list declarative ?<= /u>

=C2=A0=

Toerless= =C2=A0

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0=

Sent from my Samsung Captivate Glide on AT&T


John Strassner <= strazpdj@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Michae= l,

=C2=A0=

I've = been involved in SUPA, but also in ANIMA; here is my perspective:=


> I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match

>=C2= =A0how we envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs.

=C2=A0=

<jcs&g= t;

I'm n= ot sure what is envisioned with intent in ANIMA; I have

previousl= y posted that I don't think that there is enough

detail on= what intent is and what it is supposed to do in ANIMA.

</jcs&= gt;

=C2=A0=

> In p= articular, the model that is envisioned is far more SDN-like;=

>=C2= =A0that is with a uber-intelligent centralized command and control

>=C2= =A0system that interprets SUPA Intents into things like Virtual Private<= /u>

> Clou= d (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various things like

> YANG= /NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other

> data= models)

=C2=A0=

<jcs&g= t;

I'm p= ersonally not a big SDN fan for a number of reasons, and at

least in = the I-Ds that I've written for SUPA, that is far=C2=A0from the

vision th= at I have had. But this is just my opinion; others may differ.

=C2=A0=

SUPA defi= nes an information model (i.e., a model that is

independe= nt of=C2=A0language, protocol, and repository) that consists<= /span>

of three = pieces:

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0=C2= =A0 1) generic policy concepts (e.g., the target of a policy, and=

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 how policy is represented and structured)

=C2=A0=C2= =A0 2)=C2=A0an imperative model (i.e., event-condition-action) that is

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 derived from (1)

=C2=A0=C2= =A0 3) a declarative model (i.e., propositional=C2=A0or first order logic)<= u>

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 that is also derived from (1)

=C2=A0=

This stru= cture enables sets of policies to be defined, where a<= /p>

declarati= ve policy could=C2=A0then trigger the evaluation of

declarati= ve and/or imperative policies, and vice-versa.

=C2=A0=

I **think= ** that in ANIMA, the assumption has been that intent<= /p>

should be= =C2=A0declarative in nature. Please correct me if I am wrong.=

Please al= so=C2=A0realize that SUPA is both more than this, and<= /p>

models de= clarative policy as formal=C2=A0logic. This has a large

number of= advantages, especially for autonomics; please let

me know i= f these are not obvious.

</jcs&= gt;

>=C2=A0It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed=

>=C2= =A0to cross-AS boundaries, but it seems like they could easily

> do t= his.

=C2=A0=

<jcs&g= t;

Indeed, t= hey are. In my policy work, there is the concept of a<= /p>

policy do= main, which is any domain whose entities=C2=A0are

governed = by a common set of policies. So the concept is

actually = broader than just ASs.

</jcs&= gt;

>=C2=A0It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for

> SUPA= to be able to implement policies, but that's an

> oper= ator convenience.=C2=A0 They could equally well use other

>=C2= =A0(more expensive!) management networks.

=C2=A0=

<jcs&g= t;

Michael B= ehringer and I=C2=A0(and others, but I'm old so I have

now forgo= tten who, sorry!) talked about this at=C2=A0IETF92.

FOCALE (m= y autonomic architecture) chose the latter

(mainly b= ecause ACP did not exist!) and I reflected that=C2=A0I=

wished I = had thought of doing something like ACP. I feel

that this= would have made FOCALE more powerful and

robust.

</jcs&= gt;

>=C2=A0In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA...=

>=C2= =A0I don't think anyone overstated the situation, but I think=

>=C2= =A0that the message that ANIMA Intents !=3D SUPA Intents

>=C2= =A0was too understated.

=C2=A0=

<jcs&g= t;

I have no= t seen ANIMA intent formally defined. I think it

would be = interesting to=C2=A0determine first, if ANIMA intent

should us= e declarative logic or=C2=A0not (besides SUPA,

ONF,=C2= =A0OpenStack Congress, and to an extent, ODL GBP

all use d= eclarative logic), and second, if=C2=A0ANIMA intent

is not go= ing to use=C2=A0declarative logic, then why not?

</jcs&= gt;

>=C2=A0Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) points=

>=C2= =A0on the list to
>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo

=C2=A0=

<jcs&g= t;

Note that= NEMO says that they are=C2=A0defining a declarative

policy, b= ut in reality, NEMO implements this with imperative

(i.e., co= ndition-action) constructs.

</jcs&= gt;


> It seems that there ought to be significant overlap,=C2=A0and <= u>

> yet = I don't see it.

=C2=A0=

<jcs&g= t;

IF ANIMA = intent decides to use declarative logic or

imperativ= e logic (in the form of event-condition-action), then I

would hop= e that the two indeed overlap. However, until

ANIMA for= mally defines what intent is, it is impossible to say.=

</jcs&= gt;

=C2=A0=

regards,<= u>

John

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0=

On Tue, A= ug 18, 2015 at 12:50 PM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:=


{intentionally not cross-posted to SUPA}

While working on other things today (and being at home with a pink-eyed kid= ),
I found the tab that was open to watch the IETF93 SUPA BOF.

I also had saved ~80 emails from the SUPA list to read.
I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match how we
envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs.=C2=A0 In particular, the model th= at
is envisioned is far more SDN-like; that is with a uber-intelligent
centralized command and control system that interprets SUPA Intents into things like Virtual Private Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various
things like YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other data models)<= br>
It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed to cross-= AS
boundaries, but it seems like they could easily do this.

It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for SUPA to be able to<= br> implement policies, but that's an operator convenience.=C2=A0 They coul= d equally
well use other (more expensive!) management networks.

In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... I don't think anyone overstated the situation, but I think that the message that ANIMA Intents !=3D SUPA Intents was too understated.

Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) points on the list to =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo

There was a SUPA telecon yesterday morning, but I had a nomcom call,
so I missed it.=C2=A0 It seems that there ought to be significant overlap,<= br> and yet I don't see it.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
=C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-




_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima




--

regards,<= /span>

John




--

regards,<= u>

John




--
regards,
John
--001a113fa9b01dc9cc051dbfd41a-- From nobody Thu Aug 20 09:41:15 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 260CF1AD0C2 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 09:41:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NTndY220iUvY for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 09:41:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-1.cisco.com (alln-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.142.88]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E4BD1AD0BE for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 09:41:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2011; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1440088872; x=1441298472; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=NNfFOOI+zN5eXcXvbhGEFPrkh8qYoxVwfZhVCEZ+ouY=; b=TZC+9Ps7LRdAT+Z8+WrhXwnK2CVANu1ZD8zFQOCqPIOQMobh4CHPFuQk 5egO3urkdwcsHAcJ4EhBXnv1cWLmCeQIewe1mPJKkzlseM0+2ZqvSZ8JD POsX+a4NUuOPnHHdycp4YDgLyqy1G3EmGzR703sfDtTsfq6E+f5NABoGo E=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0ClAgApAtZV/4UNJK1dgxtUaQa9UQEJgW0KgkODOAKBNTgUAQEBAQEBAYEKhCMBAQEEAQEBNzQLDAQCAQgRBAEBAQoUCQcnCxQJCAIEAQ0FCBOIEw3QNwEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAReLU4RZMQcGgxKBFAWVKQGFBIl6mCsmg31xAYFHgQQBAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.15,714,1432598400"; d="scan'208";a="180599147" Received: from alln-core-11.cisco.com ([173.36.13.133]) by alln-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 20 Aug 2015 16:41:11 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com (xch-rcd-001.cisco.com [173.37.102.11]) by alln-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t7KGfBwe002189 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 20 Aug 2015 16:41:11 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 11:41:10 -0500 Received: from xhc-rcd-x07.cisco.com (173.37.183.81) by xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 11:41:10 -0500 Received: from xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com ([169.254.4.116]) by xhc-rcd-x07.cisco.com ([173.37.183.81]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 11:41:10 -0500 From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" To: "sarikaya@ieee.org" , Michael Richardson Thread-Topic: [Anima] who's interested? Thread-Index: AQHQ2cf3MiPtl2DW7Eu9wk5A7iRlaZ4Sd0KAgAAO/gCAAUSzgIAABCQAgAFLPCA= Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 16:41:09 +0000 Message-ID: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304AE08@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> <55CB2E24.3030604@cs.tcd.ie> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1E391@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CC78BF.20104@gmx.net> <2F014D30-692D-4592-AE45-45AF34396763@cisco.com> <55CD94D3.7060109@gmx.net> <29185.1439564839@sandelman.ca> <55D1FF83.4070507@bogus.com> <55D339E6.10803@cs.tcd.ie> <24008.1439910343@sandelman.ca> <55D34ABF.4000904@cs.tcd.ie> <20678.1439925869@sandelman.ca> <55D39300.6080300@cs.tcd.ie> <9288.1439998817@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.55.238.133] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Stephen Farrell , Brian Haberman , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , "Max Pritikin \(pritikin\)" , "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , joel jaeggli , Kathleen Moriarty , Hannes Tschofenig , anima , Sheng Jiang Subject: Re: [Anima] who's interested? X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 16:41:14 -0000 Stephen: I'm interested in the discussion as well. But not only for IoT.=20 Michael > -----Original Message----- > From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Behcet > Sarikaya > Sent: 19 August 2015 17:55 > To: Michael Richardson > Cc: Brian Haberman; anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org; Max Pritikin (pritikin); > Toerless Eckert (eckert); joel jaeggli; Kathleen Moriarty; Sheng Jiang; > Hannes Tschofenig; anima; Stephen Farrell > Subject: Re: [Anima] who's interested? >=20 > Hi Steve, >=20 >=20 > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 10:40 AM, Michael Richardson > wrote: > > > > Stephen Farrell wrote: > > >> My suggestion is that we make this a topic for the IoT directora= te. > > >> I think it's slightly too soon to know what is missing. > > > > > Hmm. It's not clear to me that we're only dealing with a thing > > > that's an IoT thing. > > > > I agree; but I don't know what other thing there is yet. > > >=20 > When we say that it should be done in IoT directorate or in IoT WGs not i= n > security area, it is not out of disrespect to the security area. We love > security area, they are doing great things. >=20 > But the idea here is what needs to be done is using existing security > mechanisms/protocols to come up with a solution to an IoT problem. An > example is about using HIP-DEX >=20 > http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ohba-6lo-mle-hip-dex-00.txt which has been > accepted to become a WG draft in 6lo. >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Behcet >=20 >=20 > > -- > > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software > Works > > -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Anima mailing list > > Anima@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima From nobody Thu Aug 20 09:45:16 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 044F81AD0A9 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 09:45:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.75 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.75 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bXjYvLGUuPTO for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 09:45:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-x233.google.com (mail-lb0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8259B1ACE64 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 09:45:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lbbtg9 with SMTP id tg9so27734960lbb.1 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 09:45:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=1oU83nZkXIEGMQA/VBjOKesHm46/vkHwXQMvA9sX7fA=; b=AFMdWwSA1xeVO/StPlO4b0nxYp+bdK3omgmWzYVS15c6UV7FZkO7zkaLmmCWk3gN4C kSVPVhCp9mnWD1DdKwlZWOTH0OQoFRYifOweNuZ/mKaQHwE9PUXJ8KQeypz2581F2iiF m/rxEaQj4DwcVCH545FvWzyYtrVACNox37s5wG2bNs3nOONbQIfhIO5ck1u0OYInEwcJ ShixvzxVVWcFY+fph3Qus/8YyALnJHQtVC6WgcfFw9D0x6qllmtnYQsw7+cXnKpi1fj3 wQ6qX5jS0fqR9oOUXPgt6lkw6GC0S5drjmDmujbb0LTFUbKF5UCdl8EM2nQOT73tQ6tU y13g== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.23.167 with SMTP id n7mr3724712laf.108.1440089111883; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 09:45:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.59.46 with HTTP; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 09:45:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304AE08@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> <55CB2E24.3030604@cs.tcd.ie> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1E391@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CC78BF.20104@gmx.net> <2F014D30-692D-4592-AE45-45AF34396763@cisco.com> <55CD94D3.7060109@gmx.net> <29185.1439564839@sandelman.ca> <55D1FF83.4070507@bogus.com> <55D339E6.10803@cs.tcd.ie> <24008.1439910343@sandelman.ca> <55D34ABF.4000904@cs.tcd.ie> <20678.1439925869@sandelman.ca> <55D39300.6080300@cs.tcd.ie> <9288.1439998817@sandelman.ca> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304AE08@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 11:45:11 -0500 Message-ID: From: Behcet Sarikaya To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: Stephen Farrell , Brian Haberman , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , Michael Richardson , "Max Pritikin \(pritikin\)" , "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , joel jaeggli , Kathleen Moriarty , Hannes Tschofenig , anima , Sheng Jiang Subject: Re: [Anima] who's interested? X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: sarikaya@ieee.org List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 16:45:15 -0000 On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 11:41 AM, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote: > Stephen: I'm interested in the discussion as well. But not only for IoT. > Then not in anima. Behcet > Michael > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Behcet >> Sarikaya >> Sent: 19 August 2015 17:55 >> To: Michael Richardson >> Cc: Brian Haberman; anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org; Max Pritikin (pritikin); >> Toerless Eckert (eckert); joel jaeggli; Kathleen Moriarty; Sheng Jiang; >> Hannes Tschofenig; anima; Stephen Farrell >> Subject: Re: [Anima] who's interested? >> >> Hi Steve, >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 10:40 AM, Michael Richardson >> wrote: >> > >> > Stephen Farrell wrote: >> > >> My suggestion is that we make this a topic for the IoT directorate. >> > >> I think it's slightly too soon to know what is missing. >> > >> > > Hmm. It's not clear to me that we're only dealing with a thing >> > > that's an IoT thing. >> > >> > I agree; but I don't know what other thing there is yet. >> > >> >> When we say that it should be done in IoT directorate or in IoT WGs not in >> security area, it is not out of disrespect to the security area. We love >> security area, they are doing great things. >> >> But the idea here is what needs to be done is using existing security >> mechanisms/protocols to come up with a solution to an IoT problem. An >> example is about using HIP-DEX >> >> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ohba-6lo-mle-hip-dex-00.txt which has been >> accepted to become a WG draft in 6lo. >> >> Regards, >> >> Behcet >> >> >> > -- >> > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software >> Works >> > -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Anima mailing list >> > Anima@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Anima mailing list >> Anima@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima From nobody Thu Aug 20 13:24:09 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 658801B29BE for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 13:24:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 785xsSs3l3gr for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 13:24:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x231.google.com (mail-pa0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AC4C11B29BD for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 13:24:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pawq9 with SMTP id q9so35389282paw.3 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 13:24:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=pmfA7n+VHGkWfBskIeVgFCDrzNuoAylDE9Ffz98h2yM=; b=SFvGJ7W0/+cm0PbACUHWRMVV68udTfRyEka///ZZJn6L91e0mptv0jEx+GzNXbo5oT 5sCrdWGilfOuVZtu3gV3guQBYqZ71bsK0TVXm9ikWWLMYiuW9h5HuC1adZoqZqPUV6Qk AAXhXUNsjb8lhPnxRcV0C/Y/RWdt5DYBW12ucZ2rRIo36L3/+oU4+tkywvVxeB2bR2XI C+zGKu0sPTES9qSS8moCf+XLnwaGEGITFKa8jaChNLmTf3kD1ESni48s+Yh/mlSESgvf dgH90LkaUVWPbryFdvXNIpGfuE4rpckLoMVeBtfC2yQubdcbrQmvGclVpmnujFtrbqqV StBg== X-Received: by 10.66.241.130 with SMTP id wi2mr9898147pac.130.1440102243292; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 13:24:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:5770:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:5770:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id bv4sm5265739pbb.86.2015.08.20.13.23.57 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 20 Aug 2015 13:24:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <55D63764.9010801@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 08:24:04 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Strassner , Duzongpeng References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A659@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A857@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: Michael Richardson , "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , "Jason Coleman \(colemaj\)" , "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" , Anima WG Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 20:24:07 -0000 One use case that we have buried in the Anima texts somewhere is definitely imperative: an emergency shutdown of an ASA that is misbehaving. You could argue that formally that is outside the scope of autonomics itself, of course, but we'd look pretty silly if our mechanism for sending out "instructions" from the NOC could not include this one. I do agree that in general autonomic intent should be declarative. Regards Brian On 21/08/2015 03:30, John Strassner wrote: > I disagree with Zongpeng and agree with Michael. >=20 > I don't understand how you can use one type of imperative statement and= > allow others. This is like saying you can use a switch statement but no= t a > while statement. >=20 > I believe that you have a policy continuum, and declarative is mostly (= or > all) at the top, where you need abstraction. It MAY be easier to expres= s > other forms of commands (e.g., deontic logic) in a non-declarative way,= > which is why I said "mostly". That being said, in the autonomic systems= I > have built, it was 100% declarative at the top. >=20 > The risk with not having a purist view is that you end up with a really= bad > language (and model). >=20 > regards, > John >=20 > On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 4:29 AM, Duzongpeng wro= te: >=20 >> Hi Michael Behringer: >> >> >> >> I agree that declarative intent has advantages. >> >> >> >> But IMO, in the beginning, we should start defining intent using the >> simplest way no matter the intent is imperative or declarative. >> >> >> >> Perhaps in future, when the autonomic node is intelligent eno= ugh >> to understand the declarative intent, we can replace all the imperativ= e >> ones. >> >> >> >> However in this time, we should not preclude imperative intents. >> >> >> >> Of course, in your example, =E2=80=9CDevice x, do y=E2=80=9D, this kin= d of Imperative >> intent should be avoided. >> >> >> >> Best Regartds >> >> Zongpeng Du >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Michael >> Behringer (mbehring) >> *Sent:* Thursday, August 20, 2015 6:54 PM >> *To:* Jason Coleman (colemaj); John Strassner; Toerless Eckert (eckert= ) >> *Cc:* Michael Richardson; Anima WG >> *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Inten= ts >> >> >> >> My view: Let=E2=80=99s keep intent purely declarative. If you need to = support >> imperative concepts, do this through traditional methods, like CLI, >> netconf, etc. >> >> >> >> Imperative says: Device x, do y. To me, that is not autonomic. And we >> shouldn=E2=80=99t pretend it is. >> >> >> >> Now, this is a bit of a purist view, and I=E2=80=99ve heard comments a= long the >> lines: =E2=80=9Cwell, if we have this nice Intent concept, we want to = use it for >> everything=E2=80=9D. I=E2=80=99d rather keep it separate, but that is = just a personal >> opinion of course J (A strong one though! J >> >> >> >> Michael >> >> >> >> *From:* Jason Coleman (colemaj) >> *Sent:* 20 August 2015 12:18 >> *To:* Michael Behringer (mbehring); John Strassner; Toerless Eckert >> (eckert) >> *Cc:* Michael Richardson; Anima WG >> *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Inten= ts >> >> >> >> Why not allow both declarative and imperative in the structure of ANIM= A >> and the delivery through and by the ACP and GRASP. >> >> How the Intent is then used by the end node is up to the developer of = that >> node at that point. >> >> The node could be developed to only digest declarative or always allow= >> declarative and only imperative for a discreet set of items that it >> supports in that regard. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> *Jason Coleman CCIE#12069* >> >> *jmcoleman@cisco.com * >> >> phone: +1 512-340-3134 >> >> Technical Lead Engineer CMS >> >> >> >> This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the so= le >> use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, distribution or disclo= sure >> by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipien= t (or >> authorized to receive for the recipient), please contact the sender by= >> reply email and delete all copies of this message. >> >> For corporate legal information go to: >> *http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/index.html >> * >> >> >> >> >> >> *From: *Anima on behalf of "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" >> *Date: *Thursday, August 20, 2015 at 3:58 AM >> *To: *John Strassner, "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" >> *Cc: *Michael Richardson, Anima WG >> *Subject: *Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Inten= ts >> >> >> >> To me it is clear that ANIMA Intent is declarative. It describes the >> desired outcome, not the way to get to it. That=E2=80=99s exactly what= Autonomics >> is all about, in fact. Different devices have different way to achieve= >> things, different capabilities. In an imperative approach those differ= ent >> ways and capabilities would have to be expressed. >> >> >> >> The reason the industry is having trouble with ACL management is exact= ly >> because it is imperative. It=E2=80=99s just the wrong approach for mos= t use cases. >> >> >> >> Autonomics aims to abstract away device specifics and to provide one >> higher level view of the network. That=E2=80=99s exactly the declarati= ve approach. >> I really hope we have agreement on that. >> >> >> >> Disclaimer: For practical reasons (device capabilities) it may well be= >> required for some time to do some hacks in Intent that are imperative.= As >> long as we all understand it=E2=80=99s a temporary hack, and are expli= cit about it, >> that=E2=80=99s ok. >> >> >> >> So, do we agree that Intent is declarative? Any objections? We should >> really get agreement on that=E2=80=A6 >> >> >> >> Michael >> >> >> >> *From:* Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org ]= *On >> Behalf Of *John Strassner >> *Sent:* 20 August 2015 04:53 >> *To:* Toerless Eckert (eckert); John Strassner >> *Cc:* Michael Richardson; Anima WG >> *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Inten= ts >> >> >> >> Hi Toerless, >> >> >> >> I don't think it is that simple, unfortunately. Let's say that a NOC >> >> operator wants to issue something like the following: >> >> >> >> "Any CPU in any VM whose utilization is > 70% should be >> >> load-balanced." >> >> >> >> The imperative version is, well, ugly: >> >> >> >> 1) First, you have to translate what this means into a form >> >> that a device could consume. This isn't particularly hard >> >> in this example, but it still has to be done. >> >> 2) If the policy repository did not have a matching rule, >> >> then you have to build one. But, how do you find every >> >> device that should be affected? Even if we change the >> >> rule to make it more explicit (e.g., s./CPU/router CPU), >> >> this is a nightmare, because you now need to look at >> >> the topology and build n of these rules just to do the >> >> check, and some smaller number to do the load-balancing. >> >> 3) If the policy repository does have matches, how do you >> >> know that they cover all of the cases? >> >> >> >> In contrast, the declarative version is trivial: just do a distributed= >> >> transitive closure which finds all of the devices that meet the >> >> criteria, and then apply the load balancing to this set. >> >> >> >> So, in theory, you could use declarative to identify what >> >> devices you could then apply imperative policies to. >> >> >> >> In contrast, setting an ACL would be trivial with imperative, >> >> but much more difficult with declarative (because you would >> >> have to translate the declarative policy to something the >> >> device could consume). >> >> >> >> This is likely one reason I have gray hair. >> >> >> >> regards, >> >> John >> >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Toerless Eckert (eckert) < >> eckert@cisco.com> wrote: >> >> Does supa have opinions about the reaction time of imperative logic ? = If >> it wants to support fast reaction, that would then imply the logic has= to >> run in eg: the routers as opposed to an sdn controller. >> >> >> >> I am also not sure i could decide between declarative and imperative..= =2E is >> an acces list imperative ? Is the name of a well known access list >> declarative ? >> >> >> >> Toerless >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my Samsung Captivate Glide on AT&T >> >> >> John Strassner wrote: >> >> Hi Michael, >> >> >> >> I've been involved in SUPA, but also in ANIMA; here is my perspective:= >> >> >>> I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match >> >>> how we envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs. >> >> >> >> >> >> I'm not sure what is envisioned with intent in ANIMA; I have >> >> previously posted that I don't think that there is enough >> >> detail on what intent is and what it is supposed to do in ANIMA. >> >> >> >> >> >>> In particular, the model that is envisioned is far more SDN-like; >> >>> that is with a uber-intelligent centralized command and control >> >>> system that interprets SUPA Intents into things like Virtual Private >> >>> Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various things like >> >>> YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other >> >>> data models) >> >> >> >> >> >> I'm personally not a big SDN fan for a number of reasons, and at >> >> least in the I-Ds that I've written for SUPA, that is far from the >> >> vision that I have had. But this is just my opinion; others may differ= =2E >> >> >> >> SUPA defines an information model (i.e., a model that is >> >> independent of language, protocol, and repository) that consists >> >> of three pieces: >> >> >> >> 1) generic policy concepts (e.g., the target of a policy, and >> >> how policy is represented and structured) >> >> 2) an imperative model (i.e., event-condition-action) that is >> >> derived from (1) >> >> 3) a declarative model (i.e., propositional or first order logic) >> >> that is also derived from (1) >> >> >> >> This structure enables sets of policies to be defined, where a >> >> declarative policy could then trigger the evaluation of >> >> declarative and/or imperative policies, and vice-versa. >> >> >> >> I **think** that in ANIMA, the assumption has been that intent >> >> should be declarative in nature. Please correct me if I am wrong. >> >> Please also realize that SUPA is both more than this, and >> >> models declarative policy as formal logic. This has a large >> >> number of advantages, especially for autonomics; please let >> >> me know if these are not obvious. >> >> >> >>> It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed >> >>> to cross-AS boundaries, but it seems like they could easily >> >>> do this. >> >> >> >> >> >> Indeed, they are. In my policy work, there is the concept of a >> >> policy domain, which is any domain whose entities are >> >> governed by a common set of policies. So the concept is >> >> actually broader than just ASs. >> >> >> >>> It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for >> >>> SUPA to be able to implement policies, but that's an >> >>> operator convenience. They could equally well use other >> >>> (more expensive!) management networks. >> >> >> >> >> >> Michael Behringer and I (and others, but I'm old so I have >> >> now forgotten who, sorry!) talked about this at IETF92. >> >> FOCALE (my autonomic architecture) chose the latter >> >> (mainly because ACP did not exist!) and I reflected that I >> >> wished I had thought of doing something like ACP. I feel >> >> that this would have made FOCALE more powerful and >> >> robust. >> >> >> >>> In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... >> >>> I don't think anyone overstated the situation, but I think >> >>> that the message that ANIMA Intents !=3D SUPA Intents >> >>> was too understated. >> >> >> >> >> >> I have not seen ANIMA intent formally defined. I think it >> >> would be interesting to determine first, if ANIMA intent >> >> should use declarative logic or not (besides SUPA, >> >> ONF, OpenStack Congress, and to an extent, ODL GBP >> >> all use declarative logic), and second, if ANIMA intent >> >> is not going to use declarative logic, then why not? >> >> >> >>> Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) points >> >>> on the list to >>> IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo >> >> >> >> >> >> Note that NEMO says that they are defining a declarative >> >> policy, but in reality, NEMO implements this with imperative >> >> (i.e., condition-action) constructs. >> >> >> >> >>> It seems that there ought to be significant overlap, and >> >>> yet I don't see it. >> >> >> >> >> >> IF ANIMA intent decides to use declarative logic or >> >> imperative logic (in the form of event-condition-action), then I >> >> would hope that the two indeed overlap. However, until >> >> ANIMA formally defines what intent is, it is impossible to say. >> >> >> >> >> >> regards, >> >> John >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 12:50 PM, Michael Richardson < >> mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote: >> >> >> {intentionally not cross-posted to SUPA} >> >> While working on other things today (and being at home with a pink-eye= d >> kid), >> I found the tab that was open to watch the IETF93 SUPA BOF. >> >> I also had saved ~80 emails from the SUPA list to read. >> I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match how w= e >> envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs. In particular, the model th= at >> is envisioned is far more SDN-like; that is with a uber-intelligent >> centralized command and control system that interprets SUPA Intents in= to >> things like Virtual Private Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via variou= s >> things like YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other data mod= els) >> >> It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed to cross= -AS >> boundaries, but it seems like they could easily do this. >> >> It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for SUPA to be abl= e to >> implement policies, but that's an operator convenience. They could eq= ually >> well use other (more expensive!) management networks. >> >> In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... I don't think >> anyone overstated the situation, but I think that the message that ANI= MA >> Intents !=3D SUPA Intents was too understated. >> >> Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) points on the list to >> IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo >> >> There was a SUPA telecon yesterday morning, but I had a nomcom call, >> so I missed it. It seems that there ought to be significant overlap, >> and yet I don't see it. >> >> -- >> Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works >> -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Anima mailing list >> Anima@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> regards, >> >> John >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> regards, >> >> John >> >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >=20 From nobody Thu Aug 20 15:46:31 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 674271A0097 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 15:46:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0JyuZHeTRjIY for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 15:46:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-8.cisco.com (alln-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.142.95]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B5BBA1A000E for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 15:46:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=23914; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1440110786; x=1441320386; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=Z9vpL7b2WLIkWd+rkVY/0O7Rtbn/WWmOLBAAn++hi/o=; b=HWZVr8LFdPNxpbulpKAQH9IGUTseRsnZKuzTzl77g3McbDLGPdF8UTJt 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Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 17:46:24 -0500 Received: from xhc-rcd-x09.cisco.com (173.37.183.83) by xch-rcd-020.cisco.com (173.37.102.30) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 17:46:24 -0500 Received: from xmb-rcd-x05.cisco.com ([169.254.15.111]) by xhc-rcd-x09.cisco.com ([173.37.183.83]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 17:46:24 -0500 From: "Alexander Clemm (alex)" To: Brian E Carpenter , John Strassner , Duzongpeng Thread-Topic: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents Thread-Index: AQHQ2e8zgdoVG8eikE2QmFgq8VtE2Z4UI+SAgAA4wACAACnXgIAAZj6AgAAWVgCAAAnlgIAACegAgABDUwCAAFIUAP//wocQ Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 22:46:23 +0000 Message-ID: References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A659@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A857@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <55D63764.9010801@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <55D63764.9010801@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.154.49.134] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Michael Richardson , "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , "Jason Coleman \(colemaj\)" , Anima WG , "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 22:46:30 -0000 RldJVywgZnJvbSBhbm90aGVyIGFub3RoZXIgImx1cmtlciI6LSkNCg0KSSBjbGVhcmx5IGFncmVl IHdpdGggTWljaGFlbCdzIGVhcmxpZXIgcG9zdC4gIEludGVudCBieSBpdHMgbmF0dXJlIGlzIGRl Y2xhcmF0aXZlLiAgSW1wZXJhdGl2ZSBzdGF0ZW1lbnRzIGV0YyBoYXZlIHRoZWlyIGFwcGxpY2F0 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X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gQW5pbWEgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0 DQo+IEFuaW1hQGlldGYub3JnDQo+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGlu Zm8vYW5pbWENCj4gDQoNCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fDQpBbmltYSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCkFuaW1hQGlldGYub3JnDQpodHRwczovL3d3dy5p ZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2FuaW1hDQo= From nobody Thu Aug 20 18:29:19 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7999B1A00FA for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 18:29:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HiIZKfNUvNjD for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 18:29:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 28AF21A0145 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2015 18:29:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BWN93415; Fri, 21 Aug 2015 01:29:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML401-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.32) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Fri, 21 Aug 2015 02:29:12 +0100 Received: from NKGEML512-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.33]) by nkgeml401-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.32]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Fri, 21 Aug 2015 09:29:00 +0800 From: Sheng Jiang To: Brian E Carpenter , Michael Richardson , "anima@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents Thread-Index: AQHQ2e8z+JLi77ZKkEiupCRqkW7fz54Rqn8AgAP8NzA= Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 01:28:59 +0000 Message-ID: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB23ACB@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> <55D391BA.3000000@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <55D391BA.3000000@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.99.197] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 01:29:18 -0000 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Transport; Fri, 21 Aug 2015 02:19:00 -0500 Received: from xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com ([169.254.4.116]) by xhc-aln-x07.cisco.com ([173.36.12.81]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Fri, 21 Aug 2015 02:19:00 -0500 From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" To: "sarikaya@ieee.org" Thread-Topic: [Anima] who's interested? Thread-Index: AQHQ2cf3MiPtl2DW7Eu9wk5A7iRlaZ4Sd0KAgAAO/gCAAUSzgIAABCQAgAFLPCCAAFUXgIAAoDgA Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 07:19:00 +0000 Message-ID: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304B21B@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BAE9360@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1DCC2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CB2998.6060101@gmx.net> <4A92515D-EEB6-4059-8879-456796677D6D@gmail.com> <55CB2E24.3030604@cs.tcd.ie> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB1E391@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55CC78BF.20104@gmx.net> <2F014D30-692D-4592-AE45-45AF34396763@cisco.com> <55CD94D3.7060109@gmx.net> <29185.1439564839@sandelman.ca> <55D1FF83.4070507@bogus.com> <55D339E6.10803@cs.tcd.ie> <24008.1439910343@sandelman.ca> <55D34ABF.4000904@cs.tcd.ie> <20678.1439925869@sandelman.ca> <55D39300.6080300@cs.tcd.ie> <9288.1439998817@sandelman.ca> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304AE08@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.55.238.133] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Stephen Farrell , Brian Haberman , "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , Michael Richardson , "Max Pritikin \(pritikin\)" , "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , joel jaeggli , Kathleen Moriarty , Hannes Tschofenig , anima , Sheng Jiang Subject: Re: [Anima] who's interested? X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 07:19:13 -0000 Q2FuIHlvdSBwbGVhc2UgY2xhcmlmeSB3aGF0IHlvdSBtZWFuIGJ5ICJub3QgaW4gYW5pbWEiPyBJ IGRvbid0IHVuZGVyc3RhbmQgaXQuLi4gDQoNCk1pY2hhZWwNCg0KPiAtLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1l c3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KPiBGcm9tOiBCZWhjZXQgU2FyaWtheWEgW21haWx0bzpzYXJpa2F5YTIwMTJA Z21haWwuY29tXQ0KPiBTZW50OiAyMCBBdWd1c3QgMjAxNSAxODo0NQ0KPiBUbzogTWljaGFlbCBC ZWhyaW5nZXIgKG1iZWhyaW5nKQ0KPiBDYzogTWljaGFlbCBSaWNoYXJkc29uOyBCcmlhbiBIYWJl cm1hbjsgYW5pbWEtY2hhaXJzQHRvb2xzLmlldGYub3JnOyBNYXgNCj4gUHJpdGlraW4gKHByaXRp a2luKTsgVG9lcmxlc3MgRWNrZXJ0IChlY2tlcnQpOyBqb2VsIGphZWdnbGk7IEthdGhsZWVuIE1v cmlhcnR5Ow0KPiBTaGVuZyBKaWFuZzsgSGFubmVzIFRzY2hvZmVuaWc7IGFuaW1hOyBTdGVwaGVu IEZhcnJlbGwNCj4gU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFtBbmltYV0gd2hvJ3MgaW50ZXJlc3RlZD8NCj4gDQo+ 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Carpenter , John Strassner , Duzongpeng Thread-Topic: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents Thread-Index: AQHQ2e8zUKJFj53dNUCAM+GABkZNc54UI+SAgAA4wACAACnXgIAAD7swgABs2QD//7NPYIAAYH4AgABDUwCAAFIUAIAA1lUw Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 14:44:51 +0000 Message-ID: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304B524@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A659@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A857@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <55D63764.9010801@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <55D63764.9010801@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.55.238.133] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Michael Richardson , "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , "Jason Coleman \(colemaj\)" , Anima WG Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: 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SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 21 Aug 2015 10:07:40 -0500 Received: from xmb-aln-x15.cisco.com ([169.254.9.140]) by xhc-aln-x08.cisco.com ([173.36.12.82]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Fri, 21 Aug 2015 10:07:39 -0500 From: "Jason Coleman (colemaj)" To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" , Brian E Carpenter , John Strassner , Duzongpeng Thread-Topic: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents Thread-Index: AQHQ2e8zEK1/sQao8EWznvkNYVuAh54UI+SAgAA4wACAACnXgIAAD7swgABs2QD//7NPYIAAYH4AgABDUwCAAFIUAIAA1lUwgAAPxQA= Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 15:07:39 +0000 Message-ID: <52049F24-F5A7-4C2B-8C1B-93647DB11693@cisco.com> References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A659@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A857@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <55D63764.9010801@gmail.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304B524@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304B524@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/0.0.0.150807 x-originating-ip: [173.36.7.28] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <784588C194F6384DB788F65A0651C606@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Michael Richardson , "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , Anima WG Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 15:07:47 -0000 LS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCg0KDQpPbiA4LzIxLzE1LCA5OjQ0IEFNLCAiTWlj aGFlbCBCZWhyaW5nZXIgKG1iZWhyaW5nKSIgPG1iZWhyaW5nQGNpc2NvLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6DQoN 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Cj4+ID4gQW5pbWFAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4+ID4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9s aXN0aW5mby9hbmltYQ0KPj4gPg0KPg0K From nobody Fri Aug 21 09:13:49 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FFCE1AC3AE for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2015 09:13:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X-P7mp2di0Ru for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2015 09:13:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-bn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn1bon0658.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fc10::1:658]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C9B4A1AC3C6 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2015 09:13:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CY1PR09MB0922.namprd09.prod.outlook.com (10.163.89.140) by CY1PR09MB0921.namprd09.prod.outlook.com (10.163.89.14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.243.23; Fri, 21 Aug 2015 16:13:23 +0000 Received: from CY1PR09MB0922.namprd09.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.89.140]) by CY1PR09MB0922.namprd09.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.89.140]) with mapi id 15.01.0243.020; Fri, 21 Aug 2015 16:13:23 +0000 From: "Natale, Bob" To: "Jason Coleman (colemaj)" , "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" , Brian E Carpenter , John Strassner , Duzongpeng Thread-Topic: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents Thread-Index: AQHQ2e8zDVvoijDJwE2GnQqQDYedlp4UI+SAgAA4wACAACnXgIAAD7swgABs2QD//7NPYIAAYH4AgABDUwCAAFIUAIAA1lUwgAAPxoCAAA7WQA== Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 16:13:22 +0000 Message-ID: References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:CY1PR09MB0921; H:CY1PR09MB0922.namprd09.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: mitre.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:23 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_002_CY1PR09MB092272D1D3F7DB5597CB1A17A8650CY1PR09MB0922namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: mitre.org X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 21 Aug 2015 16:13:23.0199 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: c620dc48-1d50-4952-8b39-df4d54d74d82 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY1PR09MB0921 Archived-At: Cc: Michael Richardson , "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , Anima WG Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach 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([2406:e007:7836:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id hv5sm9238525pdb.32.2015.08.21.19.05.15 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 21 Aug 2015 19:05:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <55D7D8E6.4000501@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 14:05:26 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Natale, Bob" , "Jason Coleman (colemaj)" , "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" , John Strassner , Duzongpeng References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A659@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A857@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <55D63764.9010801@gmail.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304B524@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <52049F24-F5A7-4C2B-8C1B-93647DB11693@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: Michael Richardson , "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , Anima WG Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 02:05:22 -0000 On 22/08/2015 04:13, Natale, Bob wrote: > Hi Jason, > > Dave Lenrow's definition of intent-based networking in the attached slide deck* might help to answer some of the questions you raise below. Interesting slides, thanks. I can't resist commenting on one of his points: that Intent is "independent of protocol, vendor, media, etc." I don't think that can be strictly true in all cases. To give an example, Intent for prefix assignment will be different for IPv6 vs IPv4. It might need to be different for a radio access network vs a cable access network. Some other Intent might need to be different for Android vs iOS devices. Brian From nobody Fri Aug 21 20:55:52 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1FBC1A8724 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2015 20:55:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qtq-0jSLhQyt for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2015 20:55:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 00B6B1A8711 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2015 20:55:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CAG10048; Sat, 22 Aug 2015 03:55:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML401-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.32) by lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.241) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Sat, 22 Aug 2015 04:55:41 +0100 Received: from NKGEML505-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.63]) by nkgeml401-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.32]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Sat, 22 Aug 2015 11:55:33 +0800 From: Duzongpeng To: "Natale, Bob" , "Jason Coleman (colemaj)" , "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" , Brian E Carpenter , John Strassner Thread-Topic: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents Thread-Index: AQHQ2e8zRMIp1rb7iUiJbPevKJQpQZ4TSfaAgAA4wACAACnXgIAAZj6AgAAWVgCAAAnmgIAAjtug//++XwCAAFIUAIABM46AgAAGX4CAABJdAIABP91Q Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 03:55:32 +0000 Message-ID: References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A659@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A857@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <55D63764.9010801@gmail.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304B524@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <52049F24-F5A7-4C2B-8C1B-93647DB11693@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.149.226] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: Michael Richardson , "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , Anima WG Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 03:55:51 -0000 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<20150820143237.GA10860@cisco.com> Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 14:02:49 -0700 Message-ID: From: John Strassner To: "Natale, Bob" , John Strassner Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0122edbadc1630051e00d2f1 Archived-At: Cc: "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , Duzongpeng , Michael Richardson , "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" , "Jason Coleman \(colemaj\)" , Anima WG Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 21:02:58 -0000 --089e0122edbadc1630051e00d2f1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi Bob, > One potential problem I see with this overall discussion (not > Toerless' posting immediately below, which is very helpful in > my judgment) is that the matter of declarative and imperative > policies is not, in the general end-to-end PBM case, an > either/or situation: +1 ... > We have never standardized declarative at the level that it is > needed and pushing imperative too far up the continuum > ultimately becomes counterproductive. +1 > Autonomic solutions of any kind are attempts to shorten the > distance between the declarative and imperative endpoints, > usually via greater degrees of "hidden" stuff. Shortening that > distance is a good thing but -- to be done correctly (esp. for > uptake) -- depends (among other things) on (1) a solution to > the declarative problem and (2) transparency on the > imperative side. It's actually harder than this. For example, if I wanted to ensure that every CPU in every VM operated between some minimum and maximum utilization, FINDING the set of devices to affect in a declarative language is TRIVIAL (a distributed transitive closure); FINDING the set of devices to affect in an imperative language is VERY DIFFICULT. In contrast, enforcing this policy in a declarative language is much harder than in an imperative one. This is one reason why SUPA was built to enable declarative and imperative policies to be used together. The second reason was because of the policy continuum, and the elegant description that you made above. ... > I was really hoping that SUPA would tackle the > declarative problem head on and not confound things > with the imperative problem as well. See above reason for why SUPA combined them. > I am not convinced that there should be one standard > model for both at this stage. SUPA's goal is to standardize the concepts and the representation of both declarative and imperative policies. Unless you do that, then it will be difficult to (for example) have a declarative policy call an imperative one, and vice-versa. regards, John On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 8:20 AM, Natale, Bob wrote: > [Lurker alert!] > > John just wrote on a related posting: > "If you want simplicity, then the easiest way to build that is to have a > model that facilitates translation from some high-level form to an > intermediate form that the system understands." > > Simplicity is required. The model that facilitates translation is required > because that is the way the world works from (declarative) high-level > business policies to (imperative) executable configuration. The Policy > Continuum is one such translation model that I will use for reference > purposes here. > > One potential problem I see with this overall discussion (not Toerless' > posting immediately below, which is very helpful in my judgment) is that > the matter of declarative and imperative policies is not, in the general > end-to-end PBM case, an either/or situation: > > - Imperative is needed at the policy execution endpoint (roughly the > "device" and "instance" views of the policy continuum) -- even though that > might be "hidden" to a greater or lesser degree. > > - Declarative is needed at the policy creation point (roughly the > "business", "system", and "admin" views of the policy continuum). > > The "dividing line" in the middle of the continuum is not clear-cut ... it > is very jagged, with spikes of declarative going farther "down" and spikes > of imperative going farther "up" ... but a lot more of the latter than the > former. And that's the crux of the matter. We have never standardized > declarative at the level that it is needed and pushing imperative too far > up the continuum ultimately becomes counterproductive. > > Autonomic solutions of any kind are attempts to shorten the distance > between the declarative and imperative endpoints, usually via greater > degrees of "hidden" stuff. Shortening that distance is a good thing but -- > to be done correctly (esp. for uptake) -- depends (among other things) on > (1) a solution to the declarative problem and (2) transparency on the > imperative side. > > We have never effectively standardized the declarative capability for > policy-based network management (PBNM, using a very liberal meaning for > "network management" here). That is a show-stopper requirement. If we don't > do that, we will just produce a new breed of partial solutions, resulting > ultimately in more fragmentation and operational inefficiency due mainly > from the large "expression gap" between how business decision-makers think > and speak and how network technologists think and build. > > I was really hoping that SUPA would tackle the declarative problem head on > and not confound things with the imperative problem as well. I am not > convinced that there should be one standard model for both at this stage. > Imperative technology is widely deployed already (and growing constantly) > ... of necessity. We've been able to survive without enabling the > declarative capability, but that has not produced optimal PBNM solutions -- > by a long shot! -- and is becoming ever less tenable as the scope, scale, > and pace of requirements continue to increase at growing rates. > > Regardless, ANIMA needs the declarative solution that SUPA (and/or IBNEMO) > will provide. > > Avanti, > BobN > > -----Original Message----- > From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Toerless Eckert > (eckert) > Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2015 10:33 AM > To: Michael Behringer (mbehring) > Cc: Duzongpeng ; Michael Richardson < > mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>; Jason Coleman (colemaj) ; > Anima WG ; John Strassner > Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents > > The question really is what the requirements are to support us trying to > have an opinion about intent (in anima). > > Systems to build more intelligent networks start to incooperate a whole > slew of layers/concepts and intent is thrown around everywhere. Then you > have big data and intent is expressed in that context, and you have > semantic reasoners trying to fulfill intent and so on and so forth. > > IMHO, anima would do well try to figure out what problems exist outside > anima in the IETF and how anima can help. In the same was as more shorter > term in bootstrap, this could longer term (re-chartering) apply to stuff > around intent. > > IMHO, it seems we already want to break up a system into components we > call ASAs, and Laurent has started to explain in his draft how multiple ASA > need coordination, and the way i read it, that would come through > appropriate declarative information that lays out eg: dependencies,which > can then be resolved. I am not sure if these dependencies are intent, but > they are clearly important declarative informatoin we need to tackle once > we deal with ASAs. > > Cheers > Toerless > > > On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 12:03:08PM +0000, Michael Behringer (mbehring) > wrote: > > Probably we need to decide on a case-by-case basis. If (!) we allow > imperative statements (I???d still like to see why we couldn???t do it > declarative first), I???d like a way to separate them out logically in the > structure of whichever encoding we???ll use. At least we can then keep the > ???clean??? Intent separate from temporary workarounds. > > > > Michael > > > > From: Duzongpeng [mailto:duzongpeng@huawei.com] > > Sent: 20 August 2015 13:29 > > To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); Jason Coleman (colemaj); John > > Strassner; Toerless Eckert (eckert) > > Cc: Michael Richardson; Anima WG > > Subject: RE: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents > > > > Hi Michael Behringer: > > > > I agree that declarative intent has advantages. > > > > But IMO, in the beginning, we should start defining intent using the > simplest way no matter the intent is imperative or declarative. > > > > Perhaps in future, when the autonomic node is intelligent > enough to understand the declarative intent, we can replace all the > imperative ones. > > > > However in this time, we should not preclude imperative intents. > > > > Of course, in your example, ???Device x, do y???, this kind of > Imperative intent should be avoided. > > > > Best Regartds > > Zongpeng Du > > > > > > From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael > > Behringer (mbehring) > > Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2015 6:54 PM > > To: Jason Coleman (colemaj); John Strassner; Toerless Eckert (eckert) > > Cc: Michael Richardson; Anima WG > > Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents > > > > My view: Let???s keep intent purely declarative. If you need to support > imperative concepts, do this through traditional methods, like CLI, > netconf, etc. > > > > Imperative says: Device x, do y. To me, that is not autonomic. And we > shouldn???t pretend it is. > > > > Now, this is a bit of a purist view, and I???ve heard comments along the > lines: ???well, if we have this nice Intent concept, we want to use it for > everything???. I???d rather keep it separate, but that is just a personal > opinion of course ??? (A strong one though! ??? > > > > Michael > > > > From: Jason Coleman (colemaj) > > Sent: 20 August 2015 12:18 > > To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); John Strassner; Toerless Eckert > > (eckert) > > Cc: Michael Richardson; Anima WG > > Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents > > > > Why not allow both declarative and imperative in the structure of ANIMA > and the delivery through and by the ACP and GRASP. > > How the Intent is then used by the end node is up to the developer of > that node at that point. > > The node could be developed to only digest declarative or always allow > declarative and only imperative for a discreet set of items that it > supports in that regard. > > > > -- > > Jason Coleman CCIE#12069 > > jmcoleman@cisco.com > > phone: +1 512-340-3134 > > Technical Lead Engineer CMS > > > > This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole > use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, distribution or disclosure > by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient (or > authorized to receive for the recipient), please contact the sender by > reply email and delete all copies of this message. > > For corporate legal information go to: > > http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/index.html > > > > > > From: Anima on behalf of "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" > > Date: Thursday, August 20, 2015 at 3:58 AM > > To: John Strassner, "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" > > Cc: Michael Richardson, Anima WG > > Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents > > > > To me it is clear that ANIMA Intent is declarative. It describes the > desired outcome, not the way to get to it. That???s exactly what Autonomics > is all about, in fact. Different devices have different way to achieve > things, different capabilities. In an imperative approach those different > ways and capabilities would have to be expressed. > > > > The reason the industry is having trouble with ACL management is exactly > because it is imperative. It???s just the wrong approach for most use cases. > > > > Autonomics aims to abstract away device specifics and to provide one > higher level view of the network. That???s exactly the declarative > approach. I really hope we have agreement on that. > > > > Disclaimer: For practical reasons (device capabilities) it may well be > required for some time to do some hacks in Intent that are imperative. As > long as we all understand it???s a temporary hack, and are explicit about > it, that???s ok. > > > > So, do we agree that Intent is declarative? Any objections? We should > really get agreement on that??? > > > > Michael > > > > From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of John > > Strassner > > Sent: 20 August 2015 04:53 > > To: Toerless Eckert (eckert); John Strassner > > Cc: Michael Richardson; Anima WG > > Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents > > > > Hi Toerless, > > > > I don't think it is that simple, unfortunately. Let's say that a NOC > > operator wants to issue something like the following: > > > > "Any CPU in any VM whose utilization is > 70% should be > > load-balanced." > > > > The imperative version is, well, ugly: > > > > 1) First, you have to translate what this means into a form > > that a device could consume. This isn't particularly hard > > in this example, but it still has to be done. > > 2) If the policy repository did not have a matching rule, > > then you have to build one. But, how do you find every > > device that should be affected? Even if we change the > > rule to make it more explicit (e.g., s./CPU/router CPU), > > this is a nightmare, because you now need to look at > > the topology and build n of these rules just to do the > > check, and some smaller number to do the load-balancing. > > 3) If the policy repository does have matches, how do you > > know that they cover all of the cases? > > > > In contrast, the declarative version is trivial: just do a distributed > > transitive closure which finds all of the devices that meet the > > criteria, and then apply the load balancing to this set. > > > > So, in theory, you could use declarative to identify what devices you > > could then apply imperative policies to. > > > > In contrast, setting an ACL would be trivial with imperative, but much > > more difficult with declarative (because you would have to translate > > the declarative policy to something the device could consume). > > > > This is likely one reason I have gray hair. > > > > regards, > > John > > > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Toerless Eckert (eckert) < > eckert@cisco.com> wrote: > > Does supa have opinions about the reaction time of imperative logic ? If > it wants to support fast reaction, that would then imply the logic has to > run in eg: the routers as opposed to an sdn controller. > > > > I am also not sure i could decide between declarative and imperative... > is an acces list imperative ? Is the name of a well known access list > declarative ? > > > > Toerless > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my Samsung Captivate Glide on AT&T > > > > John Strassner > wrote: > > Hi Michael, > > > > I've been involved in SUPA, but also in ANIMA; here is my perspective: > > > > > I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match how > > > we envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs. > > > > > > I'm not sure what is envisioned with intent in ANIMA; I have > > previously posted that I don't think that there is enough detail on > > what intent is and what it is supposed to do in ANIMA. > > > > > > > In particular, the model that is envisioned is far more SDN-like; > > > that is with a uber-intelligent centralized command and control > > > system that interprets SUPA Intents into things like Virtual Private > > > Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various things like > > > YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other data models) > > > > > > I'm personally not a big SDN fan for a number of reasons, and at least > > in the I-Ds that I've written for SUPA, that is far from the vision > > that I have had. But this is just my opinion; others may differ. > > > > SUPA defines an information model (i.e., a model that is independent > > of language, protocol, and repository) that consists of three pieces: > > > > 1) generic policy concepts (e.g., the target of a policy, and > > how policy is represented and structured) > > 2) an imperative model (i.e., event-condition-action) that is > > derived from (1) > > 3) a declarative model (i.e., propositional or first order logic) > > that is also derived from (1) > > > > This structure enables sets of policies to be defined, where a > > declarative policy could then trigger the evaluation of declarative > > and/or imperative policies, and vice-versa. > > > > I **think** that in ANIMA, the assumption has been that intent should > > be declarative in nature. Please correct me if I am wrong. > > Please also realize that SUPA is both more than this, and models > > declarative policy as formal logic. This has a large number of > > advantages, especially for autonomics; please let me know if these are > > not obvious. > > > > > > > It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed to > > > cross-AS boundaries, but it seems like they could easily do this. > > > > > > Indeed, they are. In my policy work, there is the concept of a policy > > domain, which is any domain whose entities are governed by a common > > set of policies. So the concept is actually broader than just ASs. > > > > > > > It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for SUPA to be > > > able to implement policies, but that's an operator convenience. > > > They could equally well use other (more expensive!) management > > > networks. > > > > > > Michael Behringer and I (and others, but I'm old so I have now > > forgotten who, sorry!) talked about this at IETF92. > > FOCALE (my autonomic architecture) chose the latter (mainly because > > ACP did not exist!) and I reflected that I wished I had thought of > > doing something like ACP. I feel that this would have made FOCALE more > > powerful and robust. > > > > > > > In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... > > > I don't think anyone overstated the situation, but I think that the > > > message that ANIMA Intents != SUPA Intents was too understated. > > > > > > I have not seen ANIMA intent formally defined. I think it would be > > interesting to determine first, if ANIMA intent should use declarative > > logic or not (besides SUPA, ONF, OpenStack Congress, and to an extent, > > ODL GBP all use declarative logic), and second, if ANIMA intent is not > > going to use declarative logic, then why not? > > > > > > > Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) points on the list > > > to > > > IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo > > > > > > Note that NEMO says that they are defining a declarative policy, but > > in reality, NEMO implements this with imperative (i.e., > > condition-action) constructs. > > > > > > > It seems that there ought to be significant overlap, and yet I don't > > > see it. > > > > > > IF ANIMA intent decides to use declarative logic or imperative logic > > (in the form of event-condition-action), then I would hope that the > > two indeed overlap. However, until ANIMA formally defines what intent > > is, it is impossible to say. > > > > > > regards, > > John > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 12:50 PM, Michael Richardson < > mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote: > > > > {intentionally not cross-posted to SUPA} > > > > While working on other things today (and being at home with a > > pink-eyed kid), I found the tab that was open to watch the IETF93 SUPA > BOF. > > > > I also had saved ~80 emails from the SUPA list to read. > > I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match how > > we envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs. In particular, the model > > that is envisioned is far more SDN-like; that is with a > > uber-intelligent centralized command and control system that > > interprets SUPA Intents into things like Virtual Private Cloud > > (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various things like > > YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other data models) > > > > It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed to > > cross-AS boundaries, but it seems like they could easily do this. > > > > It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for SUPA to be > > able to implement policies, but that's an operator convenience. They > > could equally well use other (more expensive!) management networks. > > > > In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... I don't think > > anyone overstated the situation, but I think that the message that > > ANIMA Intents != SUPA Intents was too understated. > > > > Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) points on the list to > > IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo > > > > There was a SUPA telecon yesterday morning, but I had a nomcom call, > > so I missed it. It seems that there ought to be significant overlap, > > and yet I don't see it. > > > > -- > > Michael Richardson > > >, Sandelman > > Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Anima mailing list > > Anima@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > > > > > > > > -- > > regards, > > John > > > > > > > > -- > > regards, > > John > > -- > --- > Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com > > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > -- regards, John --089e0122edbadc1630051e00d2f1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Bob,

> One potential p= roblem I see with this overall discussion (not
>=C2=A0Toerless= ' posting immediately below, which is very helpful in
>=C2= =A0my judgment) is that the matter of declarative and imperative
= >=C2=A0policies is not, in the general end-to-end PBM case, an
>=C2=A0either/or situation:

<jcs> +1 <= ;/jcs>

=C2=A0...

> We have never stan= dardized declarative at the level that it is
>=C2=A0needed and= pushing imperative too far up the continuum
>=C2=A0ultimately= becomes counterproductive.

<jcs> +1 </jcs><= br>
> Autonomic solutions of any kind are attempts to shorten the
>=C2=A0distance between the declarative and imperative endpoints,=
>=C2=A0usually via greater degrees of "hidden" stuf= f. Shortening that
>=C2=A0distance is a good thing but -- to b= e done correctly (esp. for
>=C2=A0uptake) -- depends (among ot= her things) on (1) a solution to
>=C2=A0the declarative proble= m and (2) transparency on the
>=C2=A0imperative side.

=
<jcs>=C2=A0It's actually harder than this. For example= , if I wanted to
ensure that every CPU in every VM operated betwe= en some
minimum and maximum utilization, FINDING the set of devic= es
to affect in a declarative language is TRIVIAL (a distributed<= /div>
transitive closure); FINDING the set of devices=C2=A0to affect in= an
imperative language is VERY DIFFICULT.

In contrast,=C2=A0enforcing this policy in=C2=A0a declarative language i= s
much harder than in an imperative one.=C2=A0This is one reason<= /div>
why SUPA was built to enable declarative and imperative
policies to be used together.

The second reason = was because of the policy continuum,
and the elegant description = that you made above. </jcs>

...

> I was reall= y hoping that SUPA would tackle the
> declarative problem head= on and not confound things
>=C2=A0with the imperative problem= as well.

<jcs> See above reason for why SUPA comb= ined them. </jcs>

> I am not convin= ced=C2=A0that there should be one standard
>=C2=A0model for bo= th at this=C2=A0stage.

<jcs> SUPA's goa= l is to standardize the concepts and the
representation of both d= eclarative and imperative policies.
Unless you do that, then it w= ill be difficult to (for example)
have a declarative policy call = an imperative one, and
vice-versa. </jcs>

regards,
John


On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 a= t 8:20 AM, Natale, Bob <RNATALE@mitre.org> wrote:
[Lurker alert!]

John just wrote on a related posting:
"If you want simplicity, then the easiest way to build that is to have= a model that facilitates translation from some high-level form to an inter= mediate form that the system understands."

Simplicity is required. The model that facilitates translation is required = because that is the way the world works from (declarative) high-level busin= ess policies to (imperative) executable configuration. The Policy Continuum= is one such translation model that I will use for reference purposes here.=

One potential problem I see with this overall discussion (not Toerless'= posting immediately below, which is very helpful in my judgment) is that t= he matter of declarative and imperative policies is not, in the general end= -to-end PBM case, an either/or situation:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Imperative is needed at the policy execution endpoint (rough= ly the "device" and "instance" views of the policy cont= inuum) -- even though that might be "hidden" to a greater or less= er degree.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Declarative is needed at the policy creation point (roughly = the "business", "system", and "admin" views o= f the policy continuum).

The "dividing line" in the middle of the continuum is not clear-c= ut ... it is very jagged, with spikes of declarative going farther "do= wn" and spikes of imperative going farther "up" ... but a lo= t more of the latter than the former. And that's the crux of the matter= . We have never standardized declarative at the level that it is needed and= pushing imperative too far up the continuum ultimately becomes counterprod= uctive.

Autonomic solutions of any kind are attempts to shorten the distance betwee= n the declarative and imperative endpoints, usually via greater degrees of = "hidden" stuff. Shortening that distance is a good thing but -- t= o be done correctly (esp. for uptake) -- depends (among other things) on (1= ) a solution to the declarative problem and (2) transparency on the imperat= ive side.

We have never effectively standardized the declarative capability for polic= y-based network management (PBNM, using a very liberal meaning for "ne= twork management" here). That is a show-stopper requirement. If we don= 't do that, we will just produce a new breed of partial solutions, resu= lting ultimately in more fragmentation and operational inefficiency due mai= nly from the large "expression gap" between how business decision= -makers think and speak and how network technologists think and build.

I was really hoping that SUPA would tackle the declarative problem head on = and not confound things with the imperative problem as well. I am not convi= nced that there should be one standard model for both at this stage. Impera= tive technology is widely deployed already (and growing constantly) ... of = necessity. We've been able to survive without enabling the declarative = capability, but that has not produced optimal PBNM solutions -- by a long s= hot! -- and is becoming ever less tenable as the scope, scale, and pace of = requirements continue to increase at growing rates.

Regardless, ANIMA needs the declarative solution that SUPA (and/or IBNEMO) = will provide.

Avanti,
BobN

-----Original Message-----
From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces= @ietf.org] On Behalf Of Toerless Eckert (eckert)
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2015 10:33 AM
To: Michael Behringer (mbehring) <= mbehring@cisco.com>
Cc: Duzongpeng <duzongpeng@huaw= ei.com>; Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>; Jason Coleman (colemaj) <colemaj@cisco.com>; Anima WG <anima@ietf.org>; John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents

The question really is what the requirements are to support us trying to ha= ve an opinion about intent (in anima).

Systems to build more intelligent networks start to incooperate a whole sle= w of layers/concepts and intent is thrown around everywhere. Then you have = big data and intent is expressed in that context, and you have semantic rea= soners trying to fulfill intent and so on and so forth.

IMHO, anima would do well try to figure out what problems exist outside ani= ma in the IETF and how anima can help. In the same was as more shorter term= in bootstrap, this could longer term (re-chartering) apply to stuff around= intent.

IMHO, it seems we already want to break up a system into components we call= ASAs, and Laurent has started to explain in his draft how multiple ASA nee= d coordination, and the way i read it, that would come through appropriate = declarative information that lays out eg: dependencies,which can then be re= solved. I am not sure if these dependencies are intent, but they are clearl= y important declarative informatoin we need to tackle once we deal with ASA= s.

Cheers
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Toerless


On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 12:03:08PM +0000, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrot= e:
> Probably we need to decide on a case-by-case basis. If (!) we allow im= perative statements (I???d still like to see why we couldn???t do it declar= ative first), I???d like a way to separate them out logically in the struct= ure of whichever encoding we???ll use. At least we can then keep the ???cle= an??? Intent separate from temporary workarounds.
>
> Michael
>
> From: Duzongpeng [mailto:duzo= ngpeng@huawei.com]
> Sent: 20 August 2015 13:29
> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); Jason Coleman (colemaj); John
> Strassner; Toerless Eckert (eckert)
> Cc: Michael Richardson; Anima WG
> Subject: RE: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents=
>
> Hi Michael Behringer:
>
> I agree that declarative intent has advantages.
>
> But IMO, in the beginning, we should start defining intent using the s= implest way no matter the intent is imperative or declarative.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Perhaps in future, when the autonomi= c node is intelligent enough to understand the declarative intent, we can r= eplace all the imperative ones.
>
> However in this time, we should not preclude imperative intents.
>
> Of course, in your example, ???Device x, do y???, this kind of Imperat= ive intent should be avoided.
>
> Best Regartds
> Zongpeng Du
>
>
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bo= unces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael
> Behringer (mbehring)
> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2015 6:54 PM
> To: Jason Coleman (colemaj); John Strassner; Toerless Eckert (eckert)<= br> > Cc: Michael Richardson; Anima WG
> Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents=
>
> My view: Let???s keep intent purely declarative. If you need to suppor= t imperative concepts, do this through traditional methods, like CLI, netco= nf, etc.
>
> Imperative says: Device x, do y. To me, that is not autonomic. And we = shouldn???t pretend it is.
>
> Now, this is a bit of a purist view, and I???ve heard comments along t= he lines: ???well, if we have this nice Intent concept, we want to use it f= or everything???. I???d rather keep it separate, but that is just a persona= l opinion of course ???=C2=A0 (A strong one though! ???
>
> Michael
>
> From: Jason Coleman (colemaj)
> Sent: 20 August 2015 12:18
> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); John Strassner; Toerless Eckert
> (eckert)
> Cc: Michael Richardson; Anima WG
> Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents=
>
> Why not allow both declarative and imperative in the structure of ANIM= A and the delivery through and by the ACP and GRASP.
> How the Intent is then used by the end node is up to the developer of = that node at that point.
> The node could be developed to only digest declarative or always allow= declarative and only imperative for a discreet set of items that it suppor= ts in that regard.
>
> --
> Jason Coleman CCIE#12069
> jmcoleman@cisco.com<mail= to:jmcoleman@cisco.com>
> phone: +1 5= 12-340-3134
> Technical Lead Engineer CMS
>
> This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the so= le use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, distribution or disclosu= re by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient = (or authorized to receive for the recipient), please contact the sender by = reply email and delete all copies of this message.
> For corporate legal information go to:
> http://www.cisco.com/web/abou= t/doing_business/legal/cri/index.html
>
>
> From: Anima on behalf of "Michael Behringer (mbehring)"
> Date: Thursday, August 20, 2015 at 3:58 AM
> To: John Strassner, "Toerless Eckert (eckert)"
> Cc: Michael Richardson, Anima WG
> Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents=
>
> To me it is clear that ANIMA Intent is declarative. It describes the d= esired outcome, not the way to get to it. That???s exactly what Autonomics = is all about, in fact. Different devices have different way to achieve thin= gs, different capabilities. In an imperative approach those different ways = and capabilities would have to be expressed.
>
> The reason the industry is having trouble with ACL management is exact= ly because it is imperative. It???s just the wrong approach for most use ca= ses.
>
> Autonomics aims to abstract away device specifics and to provide one h= igher level view of the network. That???s exactly the declarative approach.= I really hope we have agreement on that.
>
> Disclaimer: For practical reasons (device capabilities) it may well be= required for some time to do some hacks in Intent that are imperative. As = long as we all understand it???s a temporary hack, and are explicit about i= t, that???s ok.
>
> So, do we agree that Intent is declarative? Any objections? We should = really get agreement on that???
>
> Michael
>
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bo= unces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of John
> Strassner
> Sent: 20 August 2015 04:53
> To: Toerless Eckert (eckert); John Strassner
> Cc: Michael Richardson; Anima WG
> Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents=
>
> Hi Toerless,
>
> I don't think it is that simple, unfortunately. Let's say that= a NOC
> operator wants to issue something like the following:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "Any CPU in any VM whose utilization is > 70% sho= uld be
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0load-balanced."
>
> The imperative version is, well, ugly:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 1) First, you have to translate what this means into a fo= rm
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 that a device could consume. This isn't= particularly hard
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 in this example, but it still has to be don= e.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 2) If the policy repository did not have a matching rule,=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 then you have to build one. But, how do you= find every
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 device that should be affected? Even if we = change the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 rule to make it more explicit (e.g., s./CPU= /router CPU),
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 this is a nightmare, because you now need t= o look at
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the topology and build n of these rules jus= t to do the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 check, and some smaller number to do the lo= ad-balancing.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 3) If the policy repository does have matches, how do you=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 know that they cover all of the cases?
>
> In contrast, the declarative version is trivial: just do a distributed=
> transitive closure which finds all of the devices that meet the
> criteria, and then apply the load balancing to this set.
>
> So, in theory, you could use declarative to identify what devices you<= br> > could then apply imperative policies to.
>
> In contrast, setting an ACL would be trivial with imperative, but much=
> more difficult with declarative (because you would have to translate > the declarative policy to something the device could consume).
>
> This is likely one reason I have gray hair.
>
> regards,
> John
>
> On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Toerless Eckert (eckert) <eckert@cisco.com<mailto:eckert@cisco.com>> wrote:
> Does supa have opinions about the reaction time of imperative logic ? = If it wants to support fast reaction, that would then imply the logic has t= o run in eg: the routers as opposed to an sdn controller.
>
> I am also not sure i could decide between declarative and imperative..= . is an acces list imperative ? Is the name of a well known access list dec= larative ?
>
> Toerless
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my Samsung Captivate Glide on AT&T
>
> John Strassner <strazpdj@gmai= l.com<mailto:strazpdj@gmail.co= m>> wrote:
> Hi Michael,
>
> I've been involved in SUPA, but also in ANIMA; here is my perspect= ive:
>
> > I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match = how
> > we envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs.
>
> <jcs>
> I'm not sure what is envisioned with intent in ANIMA; I have
> previously posted that I don't think that there is enough detail o= n
> what intent is and what it is supposed to do in ANIMA.
> </jcs>
>
> > In particular, the model that is envisioned is far more SDN-like;=
> > that is with a uber-intelligent centralized command and control > > system that interprets SUPA Intents into things like Virtual Priv= ate
> > Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various things like
> > YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other data models) >
> <jcs>
> I'm personally not a big SDN fan for a number of reasons, and at l= east
> in the I-Ds that I've written for SUPA, that is far from the visio= n
> that I have had. But this is just my opinion; others may differ.
>
> SUPA defines an information model (i.e., a model that is independent > of language, protocol, and repository) that consists of three pieces:<= br> >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 1) generic policy concepts (e.g., the target of a policy,= and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 how policy is represented and structured) >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 2) an imperative model (i.e., event-condition-action) tha= t is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 derived from (1)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 3) a declarative model (i.e., propositional or first orde= r logic)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 that is also derived from (1)
>
> This structure enables sets of policies to be defined, where a
> declarative policy could then trigger the evaluation of declarative > and/or imperative policies, and vice-versa.
>
> I **think** that in ANIMA, the assumption has been that intent should<= br> > be declarative in nature. Please correct me if I am wrong.
> Please also realize that SUPA is both more than this, and models
> declarative policy as formal logic. This has a large number of
> advantages, especially for autonomics; please let me know if these are=
> not obvious.
> </jcs>
>
> > It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed= to
> > cross-AS boundaries, but it seems like they could easily do this.=
>
> <jcs>
> Indeed, they are. In my policy work, there is the concept of a policy<= br> > domain, which is any domain whose entities are governed by a common > set of policies. So the concept is actually broader than just ASs.
> </jcs>
>
> > It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for SUPA to b= e
> > able to implement policies, but that's an operator convenienc= e.
> > They could equally well use other (more expensive!) management > > networks.
>
> <jcs>
> Michael Behringer and I (and others, but I'm old so I have now
> forgotten who, sorry!) talked about this at IETF92.
> FOCALE (my autonomic architecture) chose the latter (mainly because > ACP did not exist!) and I reflected that I wished I had thought of
> doing something like ACP. I feel that this would have made FOCALE more=
> powerful and robust.
> </jcs>
>
> > In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA...
> > I don't think anyone overstated the situation, but I think th= at the
> > message that ANIMA Intents !=3D SUPA Intents was too understated.=
>
> <jcs>
> I have not seen ANIMA intent formally defined. I think it would be
> interesting to determine first, if ANIMA intent should use declarative=
> logic or not (besides SUPA, ONF, OpenStack Congress, and to an extent,=
> ODL GBP all use declarative logic), and second, if ANIMA intent is not=
> going to use declarative logic, then why not?
> </jcs>
>
> > Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) points on the= list
> > to
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mai= lman/listinfo/ibnemo
>
> <jcs>
> Note that NEMO says that they are defining a declarative policy, but > in reality, NEMO implements this with imperative (i.e.,
> condition-action) constructs.
> </jcs>
>
> > It seems that there ought to be significant overlap, and yet I do= n't
> > see it.
>
> <jcs>
> IF ANIMA intent decides to use declarative logic or imperative logic > (in the form of event-condition-action), then I would hope that the > two indeed overlap. However, until ANIMA formally defines what intent<= br> > is, it is impossible to say.
> </jcs>
>
> regards,
> John
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 12:50 PM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca<mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>> wrote= :
>
> {intentionally not cross-posted to SUPA}
>
> While working on other things today (and being at home with a
> pink-eyed kid), I found the tab that was open to watch the IETF93 SUPA= BOF.
>
> I also had saved ~80 emails from the SUPA list to read.
> I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match how > we envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs.=C2=A0 In particular, the = model
> that is envisioned is far more SDN-like; that is with a
> uber-intelligent centralized command and control system that
> interprets SUPA Intents into things like Virtual Private Cloud
> (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various things like
> YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other data models)
>
> It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed to > cross-AS boundaries, but it seems like they could easily do this.
>
> It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for SUPA to be
> able to implement policies, but that's an operator convenience.=C2= =A0 They
> could equally well use other (more expensive!) management networks. >
> In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... I don't th= ink
> anyone overstated the situation, but I think that the message that
> ANIMA Intents !=3D SUPA Intents was too understated.
>
> Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) points on the list= to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/m= ailman/listinfo/ibnemo
>
> There was a SUPA telecon yesterday morning, but I had a nomcom call, > so I missed it.=C2=A0 It seems that there ought to be significant over= lap,
> and yet I don't see it.
>
> --
> Michael Richardson
> <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca<mailto:mcr%2BIETF@sandel= man.ca>>, Sandelman
> Software Works=C2=A0 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org<mailto:Anima@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>
>
>
> --
> regards,
> John
>
>
>
> --
> regards,
> John

--
---
Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com
_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima



--
regards,
John
--089e0122edbadc1630051e00d2f1-- From nobody Sun Aug 23 14:07:26 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 605211B2C14 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 2015 14:07:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NQVCgDN19YYL for ; Sun, 23 Aug 2015 14:07:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x230.google.com (mail-ig0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ADD161B2C07 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 2015 14:07:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by igfj19 with SMTP id j19so48726913igf.0 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 2015 14:07:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=WwubwYeWwOpmzSXHJiTT+KThN0dgb91Il6wJ6QZcLZM=; b=uPQQqOIU/yNM7WdVdpV9ZEGiY+Wj6ILno5JdulMedS5YUAoBB77joQUWeEpGSSsv/L +3VzFINh25sBGqI3j5A0lc6THfa/2MOn3b8CQXXSqfa1+9K6MneXeiAme5TEAJCLR3Nf 1uhE2W3jh/Mu2h3xj4KG7OiLNeH5uTGCheNH66vMrNNov1NH555DNwiA1ETmSUzCc0+X sUG0TkrQbtackusrz+o8owgcr31QGGNK2089ZHAc9zH0spOpwHVscWNk67lTpWt2HzxE 5FnUbldAKjH5plX7G3g+aqVMeSaieEiO1Hv7hTwY8/t6+gD+TIi6Cvu50Wwc/Qxcge4o jD/A== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.70.34 with SMTP id j2mr13844625igu.54.1440364043107; Sun, 23 Aug 2015 14:07:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.79.107.196 with HTTP; Sun, 23 Aug 2015 14:07:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <55D7D8E6.4000501@gmail.com> References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A659@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A857@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <55D63764.9010801@gmail.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304B524@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <52049F24-F5A7-4C2B-8C1B-93647DB11693@cisco.com> <55D7D8E6.4000501@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 14:07:22 -0700 Message-ID: From: John Strassner To: Brian E Carpenter , John Strassner Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b3a9be623060a051e00e3f6 Archived-At: Cc: "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , Duzongpeng , Michael Richardson , "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" , "Natale, Bob" , "Jason Coleman \(colemaj\)" , Anima WG Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 21:07:25 -0000 --047d7b3a9be623060a051e00e3f6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 HI Brian, the reason that Dave says that is because that is how we are building intent in the ONF (see the associated white paper, now v3). The point would be that the operator should not have to know if it was IPv4 or IPv6, the system translating the intent expression to a form for general consumption would know that based on the context (e.g., the target of the intent) of the intent expression. That is why nothing close in any SDO currently exists - the translation from declarative intent to something consumable is really hard. It's also probably not something the IETF will do. For example, think of a MIB or a YANG module. Can I monitor, let alone configure, a device using JUST a MIB or a YANG module? Of course not! I need associated logic to look at the data structures defined by the MIB or YANG module. I need (for example) an agent to go process it. Etc. The point is that building the best data model in the world is NOT the COMPLETE solution. So even if we standardized a model, or a protocol, or both, so what? You would have to standardize the processing of the model, the business logic, etc. to have a complete solution. I don't think that will happen in any SDO. The closest we would get would be standardizing an architecture with reference points. So far, no discussion in the IETF has gone there, hence my skepticism. regards, John On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 7:05 PM, Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > On 22/08/2015 04:13, Natale, Bob wrote: > > Hi Jason, > > > > Dave Lenrow's definition of intent-based networking in the attached > slide deck* might help to answer some of the questions you raise below. > > Interesting slides, thanks. I can't resist commenting on one of > his points: that Intent is "independent of protocol, vendor, media, etc." > > I don't think that can be strictly true in all cases. To give an example, > Intent for prefix assignment will be different for IPv6 vs IPv4. It might > need to be different for a radio access network vs a cable access network. > Some other Intent might need to be different for Android vs iOS devices. > > Brian > -- regards, John --047d7b3a9be623060a051e00e3f6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
HI Brian,

the reason that Da= ve says that is because that is how we are building intent in the ONF (see = the associated white paper, now v3). The point would be that the operator s= hould not have to know if it was IPv4 or IPv6, the system translating the i= ntent expression to a form for general consumption would know that based on= the context (e.g., the target of the intent) of the intent expression.

That is why nothing close in any SDO currently exists= - the translation from declarative intent to something consumable is reall= y hard.

It's also probably not something the I= ETF will do. For example, think of a MIB or a YANG module. Can I monitor, l= et alone configure, a device using JUST a MIB or a YANG module? Of course n= ot! I need associated logic to look at the data structures defined by the M= IB or YANG module. I need (for example) an agent to go process it. Etc.

The point is that building the best data model in the= world is NOT the COMPLETE solution. So even if we standardized a model, or= a protocol, or both, so what? You would have to standardize the processing= of the model, the business logic, etc. to have a complete solution. I don&= #39;t think that will happen in any SDO. The closest we would get would be = standardizing an architecture with reference points.

So far, no discussion in the IETF has gone there, hence my skepticism.

regards,
John

On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 7:05 PM, = Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wr= ote:
On 22/08/2015 04:13, Natale, Bob wro= te:
> Hi Jason,
>
> Dave Lenrow's definition of intent-based networking in the attache= d slide deck* might help to answer some of the questions you raise below.
Interesting slides, thanks. I can't resist commenting on one of
his points: that Intent is "independent of protocol, vendor, media, et= c."

I don't think that can be strictly true in all cases. To give an exampl= e,
Intent for prefix assignment will be different for IPv6 vs IPv4. It might need to be different for a radio access network vs a cable access network.<= br> Some other Intent might need to be different for Android vs iOS devices.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian



--
regards,
John
--047d7b3a9be623060a051e00e3f6-- From nobody Sun Aug 23 14:52:31 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA67C1B2F3D for ; Sun, 23 Aug 2015 14:52:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Wo5GmJwIg6EJ for ; Sun, 23 Aug 2015 14:52:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x22f.google.com (mail-io0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1D68E1B2D13 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 2015 14:52:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by iodb91 with SMTP id b91so129372419iod.1 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 2015 14:52:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=2odBZ2jNi6BNZDrcsWah6QJNUY/dg7FW1ElkfrIqYq8=; b=Z9hxOMDH9ZGYEuWyW97v2m2+164Jo6fAg5OZWpkxhqLfZHLQy5CjP4wglBi65prYZx 3RiQPSkhNnAaEWsJMGsQwxgM1TNfNDUciTX0G7h20RcgIT/NqlJN9FtAZ8tqPI9gDqM4 0fn6l8/fVDgghFBGMvqVfZH0vsr4UAd/j2JstH7p4Sgwkvm8aADRq/HicegdGnr05jqE H2SOIegDehpcmI6dsgyuEBpWnznu8yQNGHK/O50YKjPiOil3FgLm84p6maq+6W/AwHFA yD3Ok+VBXtmDnO+MzruEMBHMB622uJuXIpz9gDU69+IQndY22mFopcA3ghcU6yG7qdck OpvA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.14.12 with SMTP id 12mr16436018ioo.177.1440366739439; Sun, 23 Aug 2015 14:52:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.79.107.196 with HTTP; Sun, 23 Aug 2015 14:52:19 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <52049F24-F5A7-4C2B-8C1B-93647DB11693@cisco.com> References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A659@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A857@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <55D63764.9010801@gmail.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304B524@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <52049F24-F5A7-4C2B-8C1B-93647DB11693@cisco.com> Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 14:52:19 -0700 Message-ID: From: John Strassner To: "Jason Coleman (colemaj)" , John Strassner Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113fa9b0d9c61f051e018363 Archived-At: Cc: "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , Duzongpeng , Michael Richardson , "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" , Anima WG Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 21:52:28 -0000 --001a113fa9b0d9c61f051e018363 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jason, If we have an AN network with ACP and GRASP, why would we not want to use AN to ask the Node to perform a reset or some other action that is required? If not called Intent that is fine, but I think that we have to provide a way for this type of communication Absolutely agree. The AN SHOULD be responsible for this. A hard requirement of any autonomic solution is interoperability. As you say below, it doesn't matter if "reset" is defined directly by an intent expression or intent is translated to reset. It appears to me that many people in the discussion have thoughts on WHAT Intent means to them, HOW Intent should be used, and WHAT Intent is NOT. Do we have a definition of Intent that states the purpose of Intent and the scope that has consensus to back that definition? Seems a bit like we have different people using different definitions or interpretations of the a definition and moving straight to how it will be used instead of coming to an agreement on what it is. Or perhaps I missed that part. If so, please point me to where I can read a definition of Intent that is driving this topic for everyone If you look at my work in OpenStack Congress, ONF, TMF, or IETF SUPA, I have tried to consistently say that intent is implemented using declarative programming principles. Simplistically, people describe this as "say what you want, but do not define how it should be implemented". More technically, declarative programming uses a formal logic system. Happy to send specific documents; just didn't want to flood everyone's mail. Based on these examples and discussion I think that general communication of intent, they way described here, should be declarative. However, I also think that we should be able to pass a communication of some type of action that we want to take that is less general, such as the example of a reset. If that is not to be called intent then perhaps it has a different name. One could argue that asking for a reset is declarative in that I am not asking for how to accomplish that reset (IE: port bounce, service restart, node restart, etc). It is not as declarative as a non-specific general request, but not as specific as to stated restart node. I think that this is where the lines begin to cross, and the need for a definition of terms to look upon is imperative. This is why we engineering TMF ZOOM and SUPA to support both. regards, John On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 8:07 AM, Jason Coleman (colemaj) wrote: > -----Original Message----- > > > On 8/21/15, 9:44 AM, "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" > wrote: > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com] > >> Sent: 20 August 2015 22:24 > >> To: John Strassner; Duzongpeng > >> Cc: Michael Richardson; Toerless Eckert (eckert); Jason Coleman > (colemaj); > >> Anima WG; Michael Behringer (mbehring) > >> Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents > >> > >> One use case that we have buried in the Anima texts somewhere is > >> definitely imperative: an emergency shutdown of an ASA that is > >> misbehaving. You could argue that formally that is outside the scope o= f > >> autonomics itself, of course, but we'd look pretty silly if our > mechanism for > >> sending out "instructions" from the NOC could not include this one. > > > >Very good example. And I agree that *autonomics* needs to provide a > solution, but that solution doesn't have to be *Intent*. > > > >So in my view, Intent tells an autonomic function "do the right thing" > (very declarative, that!). If one of the ASAs of that autonomic function > hangs, you solve that with "normal" management methods, for example ssh t= o > that platform and issue a reset. Or, maybe we'll foresee a feedback loop > for that purpose, later on. I think we can deal with it, but: it's not > Intent. > If we have an AN network with ACP and GRASP, why would we no= t > want to use AN to ask the Node to perform a reset or some other action th= at > is required? If not called Intent that is fine, but I think that we have > to provide a way for this type of communication > > > > > > >There is another reason why that particular transaction shouldn't be > solved with Intent: To me, Intent has a long term scope. (Maybe that's an > even better way to define it). A re-set of an ASA is a one-off. Not the > right thing in a long-term policy. > It appears to me that many people in the discussion have > thoughts on WHAT Intent means to them, HOW Intent should be used, and WHA= T > Intent is NOT. Do we have a definition of Intent that states the purpose > of Intent and the scope that has consensus to back that definition? Seem= s > a bit like we have different people using different definitions or > interpretations of the a definition and moving straight to how it will be > used instead of coming to an agreement on what it is. Or perhaps I misse= d > that part. If so, please point me to where I can read a definition of > Intent that is driving this topic for everyone > > > > > > >Maybe we need to define it through the backdoor: Intent should be > generic enough to be flooded through the network, so that every node gets= a > copy. That clearly doesn't make sense for short-lived actions. > > > >> I do agree that in general autonomic intent should be declarative. > > > >That, I think we're all converging on. (Especially the "should" part of > it ;-) > Based on these examples and discussion I think that general > communication of intent, they way described here, should be declarative. > However, I also think that we should be able to pass a communication of > some type of action that we want to take that is less general, such as th= e > example of a reset. If that is not to be called intent then perhaps it h= as > a different name. One could argue that asking for a reset is declarative > in that I am not asking for how to accomplish that reset (IE: port bounce= , > service restart, node restart, etc). It is not as declarative as a > non-specific general request, but not as specific as to stated restart > node. I think that this is where the lines begin to cross, and the need > for a definition of terms to look upon is imperative. > > Jason Coleman > > > > > > >Michael > > > > > >> Regards > >> Brian > >> > >> On 21/08/2015 03:30, John Strassner wrote: > >> > I disagree with Zongpeng and agree with Michael. > >> > > >> > I don't understand how you can use one type of imperative statement > >> > and allow others. This is like saying you can use a switch statement > >> > but not a while statement. > >> > > >> > I believe that you have a policy continuum, and declarative is mostl= y > >> > (or > >> > all) at the top, where you need abstraction. It MAY be easier to > >> > express other forms of commands (e.g., deontic logic) in a > >> > non-declarative way, which is why I said "mostly". That being said, = in > >> > the autonomic systems I have built, it was 100% declarative at the > top. > >> > > >> > The risk with not having a purist view is that you end up with a > >> > really bad language (and :model). > >> > > >> > regards, > >> > John > >> > > >> > On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 4:29 AM, Duzongpeng > >> wrote: > >> > > >> >> Hi Michael Behringer: > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> I agree that declarative intent has advantages. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> But IMO, in the beginning, we should start defining intent using th= e > >> >> simplest way no matter the intent is imperative or declarative. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Perhaps in future, when the autonomic node is intelligent > >> >> enough to understand the declarative intent, we can replace all the > >> >> imperative ones. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> However in this time, we should not preclude imperative intents. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Of course, in your example, =E2=80=9CDevice x, do y=E2=80=9D, this = kind of Imperative > >> >> intent should be avoided. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Best Regartds > >> >> > >> >> Zongpeng Du > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> *From:* Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Michae= l > >> >> Behringer (mbehring) > >> >> *Sent:* Thursday, August 20, 2015 6:54 PM > >> >> *To:* Jason Coleman (colemaj); John Strassner; Toerless Eckert > >> >> (eckert) > >> >> *Cc:* Michael Richardson; Anima WG > >> >> *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA > >> >> Intents > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> My view: Let=E2=80=99s keep intent purely declarative. If you need = to support > >> >> imperative concepts, do this through traditional methods, like CLI, > >> >> netconf, etc. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Imperative says: Device x, do y. To me, that is not autonomic. And = we > >> >> shouldn=E2=80=99t pretend it is. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Now, this is a bit of a purist view, and I=E2=80=99ve heard comment= s along > >> >> the > >> >> lines: =E2=80=9Cwell, if we have this nice Intent concept, we want = to use it > >> >> for everything=E2=80=9D. I=E2=80=99d rather keep it separate, but t= hat is just a > >> >> personal opinion of course J (A strong one though! J > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Michael > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> *From:* Jason Coleman (colemaj) > >> >> *Sent:* 20 August 2015 12:18 > >> >> *To:* Michael Behringer (mbehring); John Strassner; Toerless Eckert > >> >> (eckert) > >> >> *Cc:* Michael Richardson; Anima WG > >> >> *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA > >> >> Intents > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Why not allow both declarative and imperative in the structure of > >> >> ANIMA and the delivery through and by the ACP and GRASP. > >> >> > >> >> How the Intent is then used by the end node is up to the developer = of > >> >> that node at that point. > >> >> > >> >> The node could be developed to only digest declarative or always > >> >> allow declarative and only imperative for a discreet set of items > >> >> that it supports in that regard. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> > >> >> *Jason Coleman CCIE#12069* > >> >> > >> >> *jmcoleman@cisco.com * > >> >> > >> >> phone: +1 512-340-3134 > >> >> > >> >> Technical Lead Engineer CMS > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the > >> >> sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, distribution o= r > >> >> disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the > >> >> intended recipient (or authorized to receive for the recipient), > >> >> please contact the sender by reply email and delete all copies of > this > >> message. > >> >> > >> >> For corporate legal information go to: > >> >> > >> *http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/index.html > >> >> > >> * > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> *From: *Anima on behalf of "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" > >> >> *Date: *Thursday, August 20, 2015 at 3:58 AM > >> >> *To: *John Strassner, "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" > >> >> *Cc: *Michael Richardson, Anima WG > >> >> *Subject: *Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA > >> >> Intents > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> To me it is clear that ANIMA Intent is declarative. It describes th= e > >> >> desired outcome, not the way to get to it. That=E2=80=99s exactly w= hat > >> >> Autonomics is all about, in fact. Different devices have different > >> >> way to achieve things, different capabilities. In an imperative > >> >> approach those different ways and capabilities would have to be > >> expressed. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> The reason the industry is having trouble with ACL management is > >> >> exactly because it is imperative. It=E2=80=99s just the wrong appro= ach for > most use > >> cases. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Autonomics aims to abstract away device specifics and to provide on= e > >> >> higher level view of the network. That=E2=80=99s exactly the declar= ative > approach. > >> >> I really hope we have agreement on that. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Disclaimer: For practical reasons (device capabilities) it may well > >> >> be required for some time to do some hacks in Intent that are > >> >> imperative. As long as we all understand it=E2=80=99s a temporary h= ack, and > >> >> are explicit about it, that=E2=80=99s ok. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> So, do we agree that Intent is declarative? Any objections? We shou= ld > >> >> really get agreement on that=E2=80=A6 > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Michael > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> *From:* Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org > >> >> ] *On Behalf Of *John Strassner > >> >> *Sent:* 20 August 2015 04:53 > >> >> *To:* Toerless Eckert (eckert); John Strassner > >> >> *Cc:* Michael Richardson; Anima WG > >> >> *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA > >> >> Intents > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Hi Toerless, > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> I don't think it is that simple, unfortunately. Let's say that a NO= C > >> >> > >> >> operator wants to issue something like the following: > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> "Any CPU in any VM whose utilization is > 70% should be > >> >> > >> >> load-balanced." > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> The imperative version is, well, ugly: > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> 1) First, you have to translate what this means into a form > >> >> > >> >> that a device could consume. This isn't particularly hard > >> >> > >> >> in this example, but it still has to be done. > >> >> > >> >> 2) If the policy repository did not have a matching rule, > >> >> > >> >> then you have to build one. But, how do you find every > >> >> > >> >> device that should be affected? Even if we change the > >> >> > >> >> rule to make it more explicit (e.g., s./CPU/router CPU), > >> >> > >> >> this is a nightmare, because you now need to look at > >> >> > >> >> the topology and build n of these rules just to do the > >> >> > >> >> check, and some smaller number to do the load-balancing. > >> >> > >> >> 3) If the policy repository does have matches, how do you > >> >> > >> >> know that they cover all of the cases? > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> In contrast, the declarative version is trivial: just do a > >> >> distributed > >> >> > >> >> transitive closure which finds all of the devices that meet the > >> >> > >> >> criteria, and then apply the load balancing to this set. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> So, in theory, you could use declarative to identify what > >> >> > >> >> devices you could then apply imperative policies to. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> In contrast, setting an ACL would be trivial with imperative, > >> >> > >> >> but much more difficult with declarative (because you would > >> >> > >> >> have to translate the declarative policy to something the > >> >> > >> >> device could consume). > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> This is likely one reason I have gray hair. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> regards, > >> >> > >> >> John > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Toerless Eckert (eckert) < > >> >> eckert@cisco.com> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Does supa have opinions about the reaction time of imperative logic= ? > >> >> If it wants to support fast reaction, that would then imply the log= ic > >> >> has to run in eg: the routers as opposed to an sdn controller. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> I am also not sure i could decide between declarative and > >> >> imperative... is an acces list imperative ? Is the name of a well > >> >> known access list declarative ? > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Toerless > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Sent from my Samsung Captivate Glide on AT&T > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> John Strassner wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Hi Michael, > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> I've been involved in SUPA, but also in ANIMA; here is my > perspective: > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>> I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match > >> >> > >> >>> how we envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> I'm not sure what is envisioned with intent in ANIMA; I have > >> >> > >> >> previously posted that I don't think that there is enough > >> >> > >> >> detail on what intent is and what it is supposed to do in ANIMA. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>> In particular, the model that is envisioned is far more SDN-like; > >> >> > >> >>> that is with a uber-intelligent centralized command and control > >> >> > >> >>> system that interprets SUPA Intents into things like Virtual Priva= te > >> >> > >> >>> Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various things like > >> >> > >> >>> YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other > >> >> > >> >>> data models) > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> I'm personally not a big SDN fan for a number of reasons, and at > >> >> > >> >> least in the I-Ds that I've written for SUPA, that is far from the > >> >> > >> >> vision that I have had. But this is just my opinion; others may > differ. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> SUPA defines an information model (i.e., a model that is > >> >> > >> >> independent of language, protocol, and repository) that consists > >> >> > >> >> of three pieces: > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> 1) generic policy concepts (e.g., the target of a policy, and > >> >> > >> >> how policy is represented and structured) > >> >> > >> >> 2) an imperative model (i.e., event-condition-action) that is > >> >> > >> >> derived from (1) > >> >> > >> >> 3) a declarative model (i.e., propositional or first order logic= ) > >> >> > >> >> that is also derived from (1) > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> This structure enables sets of policies to be defined, where a > >> >> > >> >> declarative policy could then trigger the evaluation of > >> >> > >> >> declarative and/or imperative policies, and vice-versa. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> I **think** that in ANIMA, the assumption has been that intent > >> >> > >> >> should be declarative in nature. Please correct me if I am wrong. > >> >> > >> >> Please also realize that SUPA is both more than this, and > >> >> > >> >> models declarative policy as formal logic. This has a large > >> >> > >> >> number of advantages, especially for autonomics; please let > >> >> > >> >> me know if these are not obvious. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>> It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed > >> >> > >> >>> to cross-AS boundaries, but it seems like they could easily > >> >> > >> >>> do this. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Indeed, they are. In my policy work, there is the concept of a > >> >> > >> >> policy domain, which is any domain whose entities are > >> >> > >> >> governed by a common set of policies. So the concept is > >> >> > >> >> actually broader than just ASs. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>> It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for > >> >> > >> >>> SUPA to be able to implement policies, but that's an > >> >> > >> >>> operator convenience. They could equally well use other > >> >> > >> >>> (more expensive!) management networks. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Michael Behringer and I (and others, but I'm old so I have > >> >> > >> >> now forgotten who, sorry!) talked about this at IETF92. > >> >> > >> >> FOCALE (my autonomic architecture) chose the latter > >> >> > >> >> (mainly because ACP did not exist!) and I reflected that I > >> >> > >> >> wished I had thought of doing something like ACP. I feel > >> >> > >> >> that this would have made FOCALE more powerful and > >> >> > >> >> robust. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>> In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... > >> >> > >> >>> I don't think anyone overstated the situation, but I think > >> >> > >> >>> that the message that ANIMA Intents !=3D SUPA Intents > >> >> > >> >>> was too understated. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> I have not seen ANIMA intent formally defined. I think it > >> >> > >> >> would be interesting to determine first, if ANIMA intent > >> >> > >> >> should use declarative logic or not (besides SUPA, > >> >> > >> >> ONF, OpenStack Congress, and to an extent, ODL GBP > >> >> > >> >> all use declarative logic), and second, if ANIMA intent > >> >> > >> >> is not going to use declarative logic, then why not? > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>> Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) points > >> >> > >> >>> on the list to > >> >>> IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Note that NEMO says that they are defining a declarative > >> >> > >> >> policy, but in reality, NEMO implements this with imperative > >> >> > >> >> (i.e., condition-action) constructs. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>> It seems that there ought to be significant overlap, and > >> >> > >> >>> yet I don't see it. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> IF ANIMA intent decides to use declarative logic or > >> >> > >> >> imperative logic (in the form of event-condition-action), then I > >> >> > >> >> would hope that the two indeed overlap. However, until > >> >> > >> >> ANIMA formally defines what intent is, it is impossible to say. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> regards, > >> >> > >> >> John > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 12:50 PM, Michael Richardson < > >> >> mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> {intentionally not cross-posted to SUPA} > >> >> > >> >> While working on other things today (and being at home with a > >> >> pink-eyed kid), I found the tab that was open to watch the IETF93 > >> >> SUPA BOF. > >> >> > >> >> I also had saved ~80 emails from the SUPA list to read. > >> >> I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match ho= w > >> >> we envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs. In particular, the > >> >> model that is envisioned is far more SDN-like; that is with a > >> >> uber-intelligent centralized command and control system that > >> >> interprets SUPA Intents into things like Virtual Private Cloud > >> >> (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various things like > >> >> YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other data models) > >> >> > >> >> It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed to > >> >> cross-AS boundaries, but it seems like they could easily do this. > >> >> > >> >> It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for SUPA to be > >> >> able to implement policies, but that's an operator convenience. Th= ey > >> >> could equally well use other (more expensive!) management networks. > >> >> > >> >> In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... I don't thi= nk > >> >> anyone overstated the situation, but I think that the message that > >> >> ANIMA Intents !=3D SUPA Intents was too understated. > >> >> > >> >> Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) points on the list = to > >> >> IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo > >> >> > >> >> There was a SUPA telecon yesterday morning, but I had a nomcom call= , > >> >> so I missed it. It seems that there ought to be significant overla= p, > >> >> and yet I don't see it. > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software > >> Works > >> >> -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> Anima mailing list > >> >> Anima@ietf.org > >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> > >> >> regards, > >> >> > >> >> John > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> > >> >> regards, > >> >> > >> >> John > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Anima mailing list > >> > Anima@ietf.org > >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > >> > > > > --=20 regards, John --001a113fa9b0d9c61f051e018363 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Jason,

<JC> If we h= ave an AN network with ACP and GRASP, why would we not want to use AN to as= k the Node to perform a reset or some other action that is required?=C2=A0 = If not called Intent that is fine, but I think that we have to provide a wa= y for this type of communication</JC>

&l= t;jcs> Absolutely agree. The AN SHOULD be responsible for this. A hard r= equirement of any autonomic solution is interoperability. As you say below,= it doesn't matter if "reset" is defined directly by an inten= t expression or intent is translated to reset. </jcs>

<JC&g= t; It appears to me that many people in the discussion have thoughts on WHA= T Intent means to them, HOW Intent should be used, and WHAT Intent is NOT.= =C2=A0 Do we have a definition of Intent that states the purpose of Intent = and the scope that has consensus to back that definition?=C2=A0 Seems a bit= like we have different people using different definitions or interpretatio= ns of the a definition and moving straight to how it will be used instead o= f coming to an agreement on what it is.=C2=A0 Or perhaps I missed that part= .=C2=A0 If so, please point me to where I can read a definition of Intent t= hat is driving this topic for everyone </JC>

<jcs> If yo= u look at my work in OpenStack Congress, ONF, TMF, or IETF SUPA, I have tri= ed to consistently say that intent is implemented using declarative program= ming principles. Simplistically, people describe this as "say what you= want, but do not define how it should be implemented". More technical= ly, declarative programming uses a formal logic system. Happy to send speci= fic documents; just didn't want to flood everyone's mail. </jcs&= gt;

<JC> Based on these examples and discussion I think that g= eneral communication of intent, they way described here, should be declarat= ive.=C2=A0 However, I also think that we should be able to pass a communica= tion of some type of action that we want to take that is less general, such= as the example of a reset.=C2=A0 If that is not to be called intent then p= erhaps it has a different name.=C2=A0 One could argue that asking for a res= et is declarative in that I am not asking for how to accomplish that reset = (IE: port bounce, service restart, node restart, etc).=C2=A0 It is not as d= eclarative as a non-specific general request, but not as specific as to sta= ted restart node.=C2=A0 I think that this is where the lines begin to cross= , and the need for a definition of terms to look upon is imperative. </J= C>

<jcs> This is why we engineering TMF Z= OOM and SUPA to support both. </jcs>


regards,
John
<= br>
On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 8:07 AM, Jason Colema= n (colemaj) <colemaj@cisco.com> wrote:
-----Original Message-----


On 8/21/15, 9:44 AM, "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com> wrote:

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]
>> Sent: 20 August 2015 22:24
>> To: John Strassner; Duzongpeng
>> Cc: Michael Richardson; Toerless Eckert (eckert); Jason Coleman (c= olemaj);
>> Anima WG; Michael Behringer (mbehring)
>> Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Int= ents
>>
>> One use case that we have buried in the Anima texts somewhere is >> definitely imperative: an emergency shutdown of an ASA that is
>> misbehaving. You could argue that formally that is outside the sco= pe of
>> autonomics itself, of course, but we'd look pretty silly if ou= r mechanism for
>> sending out "instructions" from the NOC could not includ= e this one.
>
>Very good example. And I agree that *autonomics* needs to provide a sol= ution, but that solution doesn't have to be *Intent*.
>
>So in my view, Intent tells an autonomic function "do the right th= ing" (very declarative, that!). If one of the ASAs of that autonomic f= unction hangs, you solve that with "normal" management methods, f= or example ssh to that platform and issue a reset. Or, maybe we'll fore= see a feedback loop for that purpose, later on. I think we can deal with it= , but: it's not Intent.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <JC> If we have an AN network with ACP an= d GRASP, why would we not want to use AN to ask the Node to perform a reset= or some other action that is required?=C2=A0 If not called Intent that is = fine, but I think that we have to provide a way for this type of communicat= ion</JC>

>
>
>There is another reason why that particular transaction shouldn't b= e solved with Intent: To me, Intent has a long term scope. (Maybe that'= s an even better way to define it). A re-set of an ASA is a one-off. Not th= e right thing in a long-term policy.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <JC> It appears to me that many people in= the discussion have thoughts on WHAT Intent means to them, HOW Intent shou= ld be used, and WHAT Intent is NOT.=C2=A0 Do we have a definition of Intent= that states the purpose of Intent and the scope that has consensus to back= that definition?=C2=A0 Seems a bit like we have different people using dif= ferent definitions or interpretations of the a definition and moving straig= ht to how it will be used instead of coming to an agreement on what it is.= =C2=A0 Or perhaps I missed that part.=C2=A0 If so, please point me to where= I can read a definition of Intent that is driving this topic for everyone = </JC>

>
>
>Maybe we need to define it through the backdoor:=C2=A0 Intent should be= generic enough to be flooded through the network, so that every node gets = a copy. That clearly doesn't make sense for short-lived actions.
>
>> I do agree that in general autonomic intent should be declarative.=
>
>That, I think we're all converging on. (Especially the "should= " part of it ;-)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <JC> Based on these examples and discussi= on I think that general communication of intent, they way described here, s= hould be declarative.=C2=A0 However, I also think that we should be able to= pass a communication of some type of action that we want to take that is l= ess general, such as the example of a reset.=C2=A0 If that is not to be cal= led intent then perhaps it has a different name.=C2=A0 One could argue that= asking for a reset is declarative in that I am not asking for how to accom= plish that reset (IE: port bounce, service restart, node restart, etc).=C2= =A0 It is not as declarative as a non-specific general request, but not as = specific as to stated restart node.=C2=A0 I think that this is where the li= nes begin to cross, and the need for a definition of terms to look upon is = imperative. </JC>

Jason Coleman

>
>
>Michael
>
>
>> Regards
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian
>>
>> On 21/08/2015 03:30, John Strassner wrote:
>> > I disagree with Zongpeng and agree with Michael.
>> >
>> > I don't understand how you can use one type of imperative= statement
>> > and allow others. This is like saying you can use a switch st= atement
>> > but not a while statement.
>> >
>> > I believe that you have a policy continuum, and declarative i= s mostly
>> > (or
>> > all) at the top, where you need abstraction. It MAY be easier= to
>> > express other forms of commands (e.g., deontic logic) in a >> > non-declarative way, which is why I said "mostly". = That being said, in
>> > the autonomic systems I have built, it was 100% declarative a= t the top.
>> >
>> > The risk with not having a purist view is that you end up wit= h a
>> > really bad language (and :model).
>> >
>> > regards,
>> > John
>> >
>> > On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 4:29 AM, Duzongpeng <duzongpeng@huawei.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hi Michael Behringer:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I agree that declarative intent has advantages.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> But IMO, in the beginning, we should start defining inten= t using the
>> >> simplest way no matter the intent is imperative or declar= ative.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Perhaps in future, when= the autonomic node is intelligent
>> >> enough to understand the declarative intent, we can repla= ce all the
>> >> imperative ones.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> However in this time, we should not preclude imperative i= ntents.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Of course, in your example, =E2=80=9CDevice x, do y=E2=80= =9D, this kind of Imperative
>> >> intent should be avoided.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Best Regartds
>> >>
>> >> Zongpeng Du
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> *From:* Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Michael
>> >> Behringer (mbehring)
>> >> *Sent:* Thursday, August 20, 2015 6:54 PM
>> >> *To:* Jason Coleman (colemaj); John Strassner; Toerless E= ckert
>> >> (eckert)
>> >> *Cc:* Michael Richardson; Anima WG
>> >> *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking fo= r: SUPA
>> >> Intents
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> My view: Let=E2=80=99s keep intent purely declarative. If= you need to support
>> >> imperative concepts, do this through traditional methods,= like CLI,
>> >> netconf, etc.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Imperative says: Device x, do y. To me, that is not auton= omic. And we
>> >> shouldn=E2=80=99t pretend it is.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Now, this is a bit of a purist view, and I=E2=80=99ve hea= rd comments along
>> >> the
>> >> lines: =E2=80=9Cwell, if we have this nice Intent concept= , we want to use it
>> >> for everything=E2=80=9D. I=E2=80=99d rather keep it separ= ate, but that is just a
>> >> personal opinion of course J=C2=A0 (A strong one though! = J
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Michael
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> *From:* Jason Coleman (colemaj)
>> >> *Sent:* 20 August 2015 12:18
>> >> *To:* Michael Behringer (mbehring); John Strassner; Toerl= ess Eckert
>> >> (eckert)
>> >> *Cc:* Michael Richardson; Anima WG
>> >> *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking fo= r: SUPA
>> >> Intents
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Why not allow both declarative and imperative in the stru= cture of
>> >> ANIMA and the delivery through and by the ACP and GRASP.<= br> >> >>
>> >> How the Intent is then used by the end node is up to the = developer of
>> >> that node at that point.
>> >>
>> >> The node could be developed to only digest declarative or= always
>> >> allow declarative and only imperative for a discreet set = of items
>> >> that it supports in that regard.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >>
>> >> *Jason Coleman CCIE#12069*
>> >>
>> >> *jmcoleman@cisco.c= om <jmcoleman@cisco.com&g= t;*
>> >>
>> >> phone: +1 512-340-3134
>> >>
>> >> Technical Lead Engineer CMS
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> This email may contain confidential and privileged materi= al for the
>> >> sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, dist= ribution or
>> >> disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are n= ot the
>> >> intended recipient (or authorized to receive for the reci= pient),
>> >> please contact the sender by reply email and delete all c= opies of this
>> message.
>> >>
>> >> For corporate legal information go to:
>> >>
>> *http://www.cisco.com/web= /about/doing_business/legal/cri/index.html
>> >>
>> <http://www.cisco.com/= web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/index.html>*
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> *From: *Anima on behalf of "Michael Behringer (mbehr= ing)"
>> >> *Date: *Thursday, August 20, 2015 at 3:58 AM
>> >> *To: *John Strassner, "Toerless Eckert (eckert)"= ;
>> >> *Cc: *Michael Richardson, Anima WG
>> >> *Subject: *Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking fo= r: SUPA
>> >> Intents
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> To me it is clear that ANIMA Intent is declarative. It de= scribes the
>> >> desired outcome, not the way to get to it. That=E2=80=99s= exactly what
>> >> Autonomics is all about, in fact. Different devices have = different
>> >> way to achieve things, different capabilities. In an impe= rative
>> >> approach those different ways and capabilities would have= to be
>> expressed.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> The reason the industry is having trouble with ACL manage= ment is
>> >> exactly because it is imperative. It=E2=80=99s just the w= rong approach for most use
>> cases.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Autonomics aims to abstract away device specifics and to = provide one
>> >> higher level view of the network. That=E2=80=99s exactly = the declarative approach.
>> >> I really hope we have agreement on that.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Disclaimer: For practical reasons (device capabilities) i= t may well
>> >> be required for some time to do some hacks in Intent that= are
>> >> imperative. As long as we all understand it=E2=80=99s a t= emporary hack, and
>> >> are explicit about it, that=E2=80=99s ok.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> So, do we agree that Intent is declarative? Any objection= s? We should
>> >> really get agreement on that=E2=80=A6
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Michael
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> *From:* Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org
>> >> <anima-bounc= es@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *John Strassner
>> >> *Sent:* 20 August 2015 04:53
>> >> *To:* Toerless Eckert (eckert); John Strassner
>> >> *Cc:* Michael Richardson; Anima WG
>> >> *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking fo= r: SUPA
>> >> Intents
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Hi Toerless,
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I don't think it is that simple, unfortunately. Let&#= 39;s say that a NOC
>> >>
>> >> operator wants to issue something like the following:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "Any CPU in any VM whose utilization is= > 70% should be
>> >>
>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0load-balanced."
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> The imperative version is, well, ugly:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 1) First, you have to translate what this me= ans into a form
>> >>
>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 that a device could consume. T= his isn't particularly hard
>> >>
>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 in this example, but it still = has to be done.
>> >>
>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 2) If the policy repository did not have a m= atching rule,
>> >>
>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 then you have to build one. Bu= t, how do you find every
>> >>
>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 device that should be affected= ? Even if we change the
>> >>
>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 rule to make it more explicit = (e.g., s./CPU/router CPU),
>> >>
>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 this is a nightmare, because y= ou now need to look at
>> >>
>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the topology and build n of th= ese rules just to do the
>> >>
>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 check, and some smaller number= to do the load-balancing.
>> >>
>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 3) If the policy repository does have matche= s, how do you
>> >>
>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 know that they cover all of th= e cases?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> In contrast, the declarative version is trivial: just do = a
>> >> distributed
>> >>
>> >> transitive closure which finds all of the devices that me= et the
>> >>
>> >> criteria, and then apply the load balancing to this set.<= br> >> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> So, in theory, you could use declarative to identify what=
>> >>
>> >> devices you could then apply imperative policies to.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> In contrast, setting an ACL would be trivial with imperat= ive,
>> >>
>> >> but much more difficult with declarative (because you wou= ld
>> >>
>> >> have to translate the declarative policy to something the=
>> >>
>> >> device could consume).
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> This is likely one reason I have gray hair.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> regards,
>> >>
>> >> John
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Toerless Eckert (eckert)= <
>> >> eckert@cisco.com&= gt; wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Does supa have opinions about the reaction time of impera= tive logic ?
>> >> If it wants to support fast reaction, that would then imp= ly the logic
>> >> has to run in eg: the routers as opposed to an sdn contro= ller.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I am also not sure i could decide between declarative and=
>> >> imperative... is an acces list imperative ? Is the name o= f a well
>> >> known access list declarative ?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Toerless
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Sent from my Samsung Captivate Glide on AT&T
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> John Strassner <= strazpdj@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hi Michael,
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I've been involved in SUPA, but also in ANIMA; here i= s my perspective:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not r= eally match
>> >>
>> >>> how we envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> <jcs>
>> >>
>> >> I'm not sure what is envisioned with intent in ANIMA;= I have
>> >>
>> >> previously posted that I don't think that there is en= ough
>> >>
>> >> detail on what intent is and what it is supposed to do in= ANIMA.
>> >>
>> >> </jcs>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> In particular, the model that is envisioned is far mo= re SDN-like;
>> >>
>> >>> that is with a uber-intelligent centralized command a= nd control
>> >>
>> >>> system that interprets SUPA Intents into things like = Virtual Private
>> >>
>> >>> Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various things li= ke
>> >>
>> >>> YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other
>> >>
>> >>> data models)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> <jcs>
>> >>
>> >> I'm personally not a big SDN fan for a number of reas= ons, and at
>> >>
>> >> least in the I-Ds that I've written for SUPA, that is= far from the
>> >>
>> >> vision that I have had. But this is just my opinion; othe= rs may differ.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> SUPA defines an information model (i.e., a model that is<= br> >> >>
>> >> independent of language, protocol, and repository) that c= onsists
>> >>
>> >> of three pieces:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 1) generic policy concepts (e.g., the target= of a policy, and
>> >>
>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 how policy is represented and = structured)
>> >>
>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 2) an imperative model (i.e., event-conditio= n-action) that is
>> >>
>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 derived from (1)
>> >>
>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 3) a declarative model (i.e., propositional = or first order logic)
>> >>
>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 that is also derived from (1)<= br> >> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> This structure enables sets of policies to be defined, wh= ere a
>> >>
>> >> declarative policy could then trigger the evaluation of >> >>
>> >> declarative and/or imperative policies, and vice-versa. >> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I **think** that in ANIMA, the assumption has been that i= ntent
>> >>
>> >> should be declarative in nature. Please correct me if I a= m wrong.
>> >>
>> >> Please also realize that SUPA is both more than this, and=
>> >>
>> >> models declarative policy as formal logic. This has a lar= ge
>> >>
>> >> number of advantages, especially for autonomics; please l= et
>> >>
>> >> me know if these are not obvious.
>> >>
>> >> </jcs>
>> >>
>> >>> It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to= be designed
>> >>
>> >>> to cross-AS boundaries, but it seems like they could = easily
>> >>
>> >>> do this.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> <jcs>
>> >>
>> >> Indeed, they are. In my policy work, there is the concept= of a
>> >>
>> >> policy domain, which is any domain whose entities are
>> >>
>> >> governed by a common set of policies. So the concept is >> >>
>> >> actually broader than just ASs.
>> >>
>> >> </jcs>
>> >>
>> >>> It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important f= or
>> >>
>> >>> SUPA to be able to implement policies, but that's= an
>> >>
>> >>> operator convenience.=C2=A0 They could equally well u= se other
>> >>
>> >>> (more expensive!) management networks.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> <jcs>
>> >>
>> >> Michael Behringer and I (and others, but I'm old so I= have
>> >>
>> >> now forgotten who, sorry!) talked about this at IETF92. >> >>
>> >> FOCALE (my autonomic architecture) chose the latter
>> >>
>> >> (mainly because ACP did not exist!) and I reflected that = I
>> >>
>> >> wished I had thought of doing something like ACP. I feel<= br> >> >>
>> >> that this would have made FOCALE more powerful and
>> >>
>> >> robust.
>> >>
>> >> </jcs>
>> >>
>> >>> In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA.= ..
>> >>
>> >>> I don't think anyone overstated the situation, bu= t I think
>> >>
>> >>> that the message that ANIMA Intents !=3D SUPA Intents=
>> >>
>> >>> was too understated.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> <jcs>
>> >>
>> >> I have not seen ANIMA intent formally defined. I think it=
>> >>
>> >> would be interesting to determine first, if ANIMA intent<= br> >> >>
>> >> should use declarative logic or not (besides SUPA,
>> >>
>> >> ONF, OpenStack Congress, and to an extent, ODL GBP
>> >>
>> >> all use declarative logic), and second, if ANIMA intent >> >>
>> >> is not going to use declarative logic, then why not?
>> >>
>> >> </jcs>
>> >>
>> >>> Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) p= oints
>> >>
>> >>> on the list to
>> >>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 IBNEMO - https://www.= ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> <jcs>
>> >>
>> >> Note that NEMO says that they are defining a declarative<= br> >> >>
>> >> policy, but in reality, NEMO implements this with imperat= ive
>> >>
>> >> (i.e., condition-action) constructs.
>> >>
>> >> </jcs>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> It seems that there ought to be significant overlap, = and
>> >>
>> >>> yet I don't see it.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> <jcs>
>> >>
>> >> IF ANIMA intent decides to use declarative logic or
>> >>
>> >> imperative logic (in the form of event-condition-action),= then I
>> >>
>> >> would hope that the two indeed overlap. However, until >> >>
>> >> ANIMA formally defines what intent is, it is impossible t= o say.
>> >>
>> >> </jcs>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> regards,
>> >>
>> >> John
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 12:50 PM, Michael Richardson <=
>> >> mcr+ietf@sande= lman.ca> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> {intentionally not cross-posted to SUPA}
>> >>
>> >> While working on other things today (and being at home wi= th a
>> >> pink-eyed kid), I found the tab that was open to watch th= e IETF93
>> >> SUPA BOF.
>> >>
>> >> I also had saved ~80 emails from the SUPA list to read. >> >> I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not reall= y match how
>> >> we envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs.=C2=A0 In par= ticular, the
>> >> model that is envisioned is far more SDN-like; that is wi= th a
>> >> uber-intelligent centralized command and control system t= hat
>> >> interprets SUPA Intents into things like Virtual Private = Cloud
>> >> (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various things like
>> >> YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other data mo= dels)
>> >>
>> >> It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be = designed to
>> >> cross-AS boundaries, but it seems like they could easily = do this.
>> >>
>> >> It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for S= UPA to be
>> >> able to implement policies, but that's an operator co= nvenience.=C2=A0 They
>> >> could equally well use other (more expensive!) management= networks.
>> >>
>> >> In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... I= don't think
>> >> anyone overstated the situation, but I think that the mes= sage that
>> >> ANIMA Intents !=3D SUPA Intents was too understated.
>> >>
>> >> Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) point= s on the list to
>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 IBNEMO - https://w= ww.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo
>> >>
>> >> There was a SUPA telecon yesterday morning, but I had a n= omcom call,
>> >> so I missed it.=C2=A0 It seems that there ought to be sig= nificant overlap,
>> >> and yet I don't see it.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software
>> Works
>> >> -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Anima mailing list
>> >> Anima@ietf.org
>> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/a= nima
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >>
>> >> regards,
>> >>
>> >> John
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >>
>> >> regards,
>> >>
>> >> John
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Anima mailing list
>> > Anima@ietf.org
>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima=
>> >
>



--
regards,
John
--001a113fa9b0d9c61f051e018363-- From nobody Sun Aug 23 19:12:50 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 449191B2EA4 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 2015 19:12:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bQU5XRT45GrQ for ; Sun, 23 Aug 2015 19:12:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 274801A711A for ; Sun, 23 Aug 2015 19:12:46 -0700 (PDT) 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multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CY1PR09MB0922D59ACFD0805886717DE1A8620CY1PR09MB0922namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: mitre.org X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 24 Aug 2015 12:43:25.7385 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: c620dc48-1d50-4952-8b39-df4d54d74d82 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY1PR09MB0922 Archived-At: Cc: "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , Duzongpeng , Michael Richardson , "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" , "Jason Coleman \(colemaj\)" , Anima WG Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 12:43:42 -0000 --_000_CY1PR09MB0922D59ACFD0805886717DE1A8620CY1PR09MB0922namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" 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YTwvYT48bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjwvYmxvY2txdW90ZT4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1z b05vcm1hbCI+PGJyPg0KPGJyIGNsZWFyPSJhbGwiPg0KPGJyPg0KLS0gPG86cD48L286cD48L3A+ DQo8ZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPnJlZ2FyZHMsPG86cD48L286cD48 L3A+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjxkaXY+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj5Kb2huPG86cD48L286cD48 L3A+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvYm9keT4NCjwvaHRtbD4NCg== --_000_CY1PR09MB0922D59ACFD0805886717DE1A8620CY1PR09MB0922namp_-- From nobody Mon Aug 24 19:50:32 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D6FD1AD0A6 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 2015 19:50:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NfHgxeWzBuFs for ; Mon, 24 Aug 2015 19:50:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x22f.google.com (mail-ig0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 45AE91AD06F for ; Mon, 24 Aug 2015 19:50:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by igcse8 with SMTP id se8so2017607igc.1 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 2015 19:50:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=0fAh+A0Ycn/iLUgvPy+bLw4BG0nPsdgfnXMO1GGsxOk=; b=QymMtll4FwEJZ1eYbXlpKYehtuo5gQ8uT7leUXfsQ6570vqaWt+AqE3LupIY87a19K l1XKG8KZ4ksPRMn1IjUA9eZphJkMZ9zaBoxG1pL2kct56cj6kIi0LVIZV37m4R8iG4Xx eA1Dcvebenl5+/YeQJKDwhHX/GKLcxn0y6px++MIjzihtyO0nizp9vYnt1IQuWE3+RJM aKh4+ptuVXW7ODDNuAN9M61CSCfpVfkkyWyIKLPsxv9Gb8SGt403/E12vqowx4a9HoRc jl/Ij3Ki4PFZSfWTEQS35kUwOlo8lIkZY0PadmUl16yye+ZDoysgk7iwlp61+6mSMhom xqTQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.30.36 with SMTP id p4mr290567igh.87.1440471021725; Mon, 24 Aug 2015 19:50:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.79.107.196 with HTTP; Mon, 24 Aug 2015 19:50:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A659@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A857@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A8D7@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <20150820143237.GA10860@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 19:50:21 -0700 Message-ID: From: John Strassner To: "Natale, Bob" , John Strassner Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bd752628f2efb051e19cb20 Archived-At: Cc: "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , Duzongpeng , Michael Richardson , "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" , "Jason Coleman \(colemaj\)" , Anima WG Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 02:50:31 -0000 --047d7bd752628f2efb051e19cb20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bob, you wrote: As you know, I do applaud the valiant effort that you and other active participants in the SUPA work are making and I understand how difficult the task is. However, I believe that for this next step in more effective PBNM standardizing the declarative framework is the major step forward that is achievable =E2=80=A6 it is, as you know better than anyone I can think of, = a really large step =E2=80=A6 and one that has never been completed in the NM domain= . I understand the difficulty that will remain in the translation of declarative to imperative, but am looking forward to more advanced semantic technologies (writ large here) to provide that bridge. Reducing the declarative side of that problem from NLP to a standardized constrained language (using the term loosely) will facilitate (and hopefully hasten) that development. I of course agree with you. To date, the only real example of a declarative language for networking is OpenStack Congress, where I helped write a parser that extends Datalog a bit to make it easier for administrative applications. However, none of the operators, CCIEs, or JCIEs that I know of know Datalog, so while the Datalog variant in Congress (and Datalog in general) is computationally efficient, I don't think that this is a workable solution for autonomics. I've played with putting a simple (restricted) natural language front-end on Congress - I think that this is closer to what operators would want. I think the chance of standardizing a restricted natural language front end for declarative policies is ZERO. Thus, I think that the only chance we have is to pick some type of formal logic - I do not care which - and then define some APIs that restrict what people do with the language. That's why, in SUPA, I am defining two types of formal logic for declarative policies - propositional logic and first order logic. The former is much simpler than Datalog, while the latter is more robust (but of course has to be restricted or it may not be computable). I am TRYING to convince myself that this is all we need. I haven't succeeded :-( because where do the semantics go? That's why (as you know) FOCALE used models (to represent facts) AND ontologies with description logic (to reason about the facts). The use of a formal logic is mandatory to make this work, and ontologies + logic enable a host of open source reasoners to be used. I HAVE convinced myself that this will work, but this is a heavyweight solution. I welcome the thoughts of you and others - publicly or privately. regards, John On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 5:43 AM, Natale, Bob wrote: > Thanks for the additional perspective, John =E2=80=A6 wrt this point in p= articular: > > SUPA's goal is to standardize the concepts and the representation o= f > both declarative and imperative policies. Unless you do that, then it wil= l > be difficult to (for example) have a declarative policy call an imperativ= e > one, and vice-versa. > > > > As you know, I do applaud the valiant effort that you and other active > participants in the SUPA work are making and I understand how difficult t= he > task is. However, I believe that for this next step in more effective PBN= M > standardizing the declarative framework is the major step forward that is > achievable =E2=80=A6 it is, as you know better than anyone I can think of= , a really > large step =E2=80=A6 and one that has never been completed in the NM doma= in. I > understand the difficulty that will remain in the translation of > declarative to imperative, but am looking forward to more advanced semant= ic > technologies (writ large here) to provide that bridge. Reducing the > declarative side of that problem from NLP to a standardized constrained > language (using the term loosely) will facilitate (and hopefully hasten) > that development. > > > > All of that is merely IMHO and FWIW, of course, and possibly a little > distracting from the good work at hand in SUPA, ANIMA, and other efforts > within and outside the IETF that you have cited in related messages. > > > > Avanti, > > BobN > > > > *From:* John Strassner [mailto:strazpdj@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Sunday, August 23, 2015 5:03 PM > *To:* Natale, Bob ; John Strassner > *Cc:* Toerless Eckert (eckert) ; Michael Behringer > (mbehring) ; Duzongpeng ; > Michael Richardson ; Jason Coleman (colemaj) < > colemaj@cisco.com>; Anima WG > *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents > > > > Hi Bob, > > > > > One potential problem I see with this overall discussion (not > > > Toerless' posting immediately below, which is very helpful in > > > my judgment) is that the matter of declarative and imperative > > > policies is not, in the general end-to-end PBM case, an > > > either/or situation: > > > > +1 > > ... > > > > > We have never standardized declarative at the level that it is > > > needed and pushing imperative too far up the continuum > > > ultimately becomes counterproductive. > > > > +1 > > > Autonomic solutions of any kind are attempts to shorten the > > > distance between the declarative and imperative endpoints, > > > usually via greater degrees of "hidden" stuff. Shortening that > > > distance is a good thing but -- to be done correctly (esp. for > > > uptake) -- depends (among other things) on (1) a solution to > > > the declarative problem and (2) transparency on the > > > imperative side. > > > > It's actually harder than this. For example, if I wanted to > > ensure that every CPU in every VM operated between some > > minimum and maximum utilization, FINDING the set of devices > > to affect in a declarative language is TRIVIAL (a distributed > > transitive closure); FINDING the set of devices to affect in an > > imperative language is VERY DIFFICULT. > > > > In contrast, enforcing this policy in a declarative language is > > much harder than in an imperative one. This is one reason > > why SUPA was built to enable declarative and imperative > > policies to be used together. > > > > The second reason was because of the policy continuum, > > and the elegant description that you made above. > > ... > > > > I was really hoping that SUPA would tackle the > > > declarative problem head on and not confound things > > > with the imperative problem as well. > > > > See above reason for why SUPA combined them. > > > > > I am not convinced that there should be one standard > > > model for both at this stage. > > > > SUPA's goal is to standardize the concepts and the > > representation of both declarative and imperative policies. > > Unless you do that, then it will be difficult to (for example) > > have a declarative policy call an imperative one, and > > vice-versa. > > > > regards, > > John > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 8:20 AM, Natale, Bob wrote: > > [Lurker alert!] > > John just wrote on a related posting: > "If you want simplicity, then the easiest way to build that is to have a > model that facilitates translation from some high-level form to an > intermediate form that the system understands." > > Simplicity is required. The model that facilitates translation is require= d > because that is the way the world works from (declarative) high-level > business policies to (imperative) executable configuration. The Policy > Continuum is one such translation model that I will use for reference > purposes here. > > One potential problem I see with this overall discussion (not Toerless' > posting immediately below, which is very helpful in my judgment) is that > the matter of declarative and imperative policies is not, in the general > end-to-end PBM case, an either/or situation: > > - Imperative is needed at the policy execution endpoint (roughly the > "device" and "instance" views of the policy continuum) -- even though tha= t > might be "hidden" to a greater or lesser degree. > > - Declarative is needed at the policy creation point (roughly the > "business", "system", and "admin" views of the policy continuum). > > The "dividing line" in the middle of the continuum is not clear-cut ... i= t > is very jagged, with spikes of declarative going farther "down" and spike= s > of imperative going farther "up" ... but a lot more of the latter than th= e > former. And that's the crux of the matter. We have never standardized > declarative at the level that it is needed and pushing imperative too far > up the continuum ultimately becomes counterproductive. > > Autonomic solutions of any kind are attempts to shorten the distance > between the declarative and imperative endpoints, usually via greater > degrees of "hidden" stuff. Shortening that distance is a good thing but -= - > to be done correctly (esp. for uptake) -- depends (among other things) on > (1) a solution to the declarative problem and (2) transparency on the > imperative side. > > We have never effectively standardized the declarative capability for > policy-based network management (PBNM, using a very liberal meaning for > "network management" here). That is a show-stopper requirement. If we don= 't > do that, we will just produce a new breed of partial solutions, resulting > ultimately in more fragmentation and operational inefficiency due mainly > from the large "expression gap" between how business decision-makers thin= k > and speak and how network technologists think and build. > > I was really hoping that SUPA would tackle the declarative problem head o= n > and not confound things with the imperative problem as well. I am not > convinced that there should be one standard model for both at this stage. > Imperative technology is widely deployed already (and growing constantly) > ... of necessity. We've been able to survive without enabling the > declarative capability, but that has not produced optimal PBNM solutions = -- > by a long shot! -- and is becoming ever less tenable as the scope, scale, > and pace of requirements continue to increase at growing rates. > > Regardless, ANIMA needs the declarative solution that SUPA (and/or IBNEMO= ) > will provide. > > Avanti, > BobN > > -----Original Message----- > From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Toerless Eckert > (eckert) > Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2015 10:33 AM > To: Michael Behringer (mbehring) > Cc: Duzongpeng ; Michael Richardson < > mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>; Jason Coleman (colemaj) ; > Anima WG ; John Strassner > Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents > > The question really is what the requirements are to support us trying to > have an opinion about intent (in anima). > > Systems to build more intelligent networks start to incooperate a whole > slew of layers/concepts and intent is thrown around everywhere. Then you > have big data and intent is expressed in that context, and you have > semantic reasoners trying to fulfill intent and so on and so forth. > > IMHO, anima would do well try to figure out what problems exist outside > anima in the IETF and how anima can help. In the same was as more shorter > term in bootstrap, this could longer term (re-chartering) apply to stuff > around intent. > > IMHO, it seems we already want to break up a system into components we > call ASAs, and Laurent has started to explain in his draft how multiple A= SA > need coordination, and the way i read it, that would come through > appropriate declarative information that lays out eg: dependencies,which > can then be resolved. I am not sure if these dependencies are intent, but > they are clearly important declarative informatoin we need to tackle once > we deal with ASAs. > > Cheers > Toerless > > > On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 12:03:08PM +0000, Michael Behringer (mbehring) > wrote: > > Probably we need to decide on a case-by-case basis. If (!) we allow > imperative statements (I???d still like to see why we couldn???t do it > declarative first), I???d like a way to separate them out logically in th= e > structure of whichever encoding we???ll use. At least we can then keep th= e > ???clean??? Intent separate from temporary workarounds. > > > > Michael > > > > From: Duzongpeng [mailto:duzongpeng@huawei.com] > > Sent: 20 August 2015 13:29 > > To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); Jason Coleman (colemaj); John > > Strassner; Toerless Eckert (eckert) > > Cc: Michael Richardson; Anima WG > > Subject: RE: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents > > > > Hi Michael Behringer: > > > > I agree that declarative intent has advantages. > > > > But IMO, in the beginning, we should start defining intent using the > simplest way no matter the intent is imperative or declarative. > > > > Perhaps in future, when the autonomic node is intelligent > enough to understand the declarative intent, we can replace all the > imperative ones. > > > > However in this time, we should not preclude imperative intents. > > > > Of course, in your example, ???Device x, do y???, this kind of > Imperative intent should be avoided. > > > > Best Regartds > > Zongpeng Du > > > > > > From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael > > Behringer (mbehring) > > Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2015 6:54 PM > > To: Jason Coleman (colemaj); John Strassner; Toerless Eckert (eckert) > > Cc: Michael Richardson; Anima WG > > Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents > > > > My view: Let???s keep intent purely declarative. If you need to support > imperative concepts, do this through traditional methods, like CLI, > netconf, etc. > > > > Imperative says: Device x, do y. To me, that is not autonomic. And we > shouldn???t pretend it is. > > > > Now, this is a bit of a purist view, and I???ve heard comments along th= e > lines: ???well, if we have this nice Intent concept, we want to use it fo= r > everything???. I???d rather keep it separate, but that is just a personal > opinion of course ??? (A strong one though! ??? > > > > Michael > > > > From: Jason Coleman (colemaj) > > Sent: 20 August 2015 12:18 > > To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); John Strassner; Toerless Eckert > > (eckert) > > Cc: Michael Richardson; Anima WG > > Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents > > > > Why not allow both declarative and imperative in the structure of ANIMA > and the delivery through and by the ACP and GRASP. > > How the Intent is then used by the end node is up to the developer of > that node at that point. > > The node could be developed to only digest declarative or always allow > declarative and only imperative for a discreet set of items that it > supports in that regard. > > > > -- > > Jason Coleman CCIE#12069 > > jmcoleman@cisco.com > > phone: +1 512-340-3134 > > Technical Lead Engineer CMS > > > > This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the sol= e > use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, distribution or disclosur= e > by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient (= or > authorized to receive for the recipient), please contact the sender by > reply email and delete all copies of this message. > > For corporate legal information go to: > > http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/index.html > > > > > > From: Anima on behalf of "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" > > Date: Thursday, August 20, 2015 at 3:58 AM > > To: John Strassner, "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" > > Cc: Michael Richardson, Anima WG > > Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents > > > > To me it is clear that ANIMA Intent is declarative. It describes the > desired outcome, not the way to get to it. That???s exactly what Autonomi= cs > is all about, in fact. Different devices have different way to achieve > things, different capabilities. In an imperative approach those different > ways and capabilities would have to be expressed. > > > > The reason the industry is having trouble with ACL management is exactl= y > because it is imperative. It???s just the wrong approach for most use cas= es. > > > > Autonomics aims to abstract away device specifics and to provide one > higher level view of the network. That???s exactly the declarative > approach. I really hope we have agreement on that. > > > > Disclaimer: For practical reasons (device capabilities) it may well be > required for some time to do some hacks in Intent that are imperative. As > long as we all understand it???s a temporary hack, and are explicit about > it, that???s ok. > > > > So, do we agree that Intent is declarative? Any objections? We should > really get agreement on that??? > > > > Michael > > > > From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of John > > Strassner > > Sent: 20 August 2015 04:53 > > To: Toerless Eckert (eckert); John Strassner > > Cc: Michael Richardson; Anima WG > > Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents > > > > Hi Toerless, > > > > I don't think it is that simple, unfortunately. Let's say that a NOC > > operator wants to issue something like the following: > > > > "Any CPU in any VM whose utilization is > 70% should be > > load-balanced." > > > > The imperative version is, well, ugly: > > > > 1) First, you have to translate what this means into a form > > that a device could consume. This isn't particularly hard > > in this example, but it still has to be done. > > 2) If the policy repository did not have a matching rule, > > then you have to build one. But, how do you find every > > device that should be affected? Even if we change the > > rule to make it more explicit (e.g., s./CPU/router CPU), > > this is a nightmare, because you now need to look at > > the topology and build n of these rules just to do the > > check, and some smaller number to do the load-balancing. > > 3) If the policy repository does have matches, how do you > > know that they cover all of the cases? > > > > In contrast, the declarative version is trivial: just do a distributed > > transitive closure which finds all of the devices that meet the > > criteria, and then apply the load balancing to this set. > > > > So, in theory, you could use declarative to identify what devices you > > could then apply imperative policies to. > > > > In contrast, setting an ACL would be trivial with imperative, but much > > more difficult with declarative (because you would have to translate > > the declarative policy to something the device could consume). > > > > This is likely one reason I have gray hair. > > > > regards, > > John > > > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Toerless Eckert (eckert) < > eckert@cisco.com> wrote: > > Does supa have opinions about the reaction time of imperative logic ? I= f > it wants to support fast reaction, that would then imply the logic has to > run in eg: the routers as opposed to an sdn controller. > > > > I am also not sure i could decide between declarative and imperative... > is an acces list imperative ? Is the name of a well known access list > declarative ? > > > > Toerless > > > > > > > > > > Sent from my Samsung Captivate Glide on AT&T > > > > John Strassner > wrote: > > Hi Michael, > > > > I've been involved in SUPA, but also in ANIMA; here is my perspective: > > > > > I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match how > > > we envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs. > > > > > > I'm not sure what is envisioned with intent in ANIMA; I have > > previously posted that I don't think that there is enough detail on > > what intent is and what it is supposed to do in ANIMA. > > > > > > > In particular, the model that is envisioned is far more SDN-like; > > > that is with a uber-intelligent centralized command and control > > > system that interprets SUPA Intents into things like Virtual Private > > > Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various things like > > > YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other data models) > > > > > > I'm personally not a big SDN fan for a number of reasons, and at least > > in the I-Ds that I've written for SUPA, that is far from the vision > > that I have had. But this is just my opinion; others may differ. > > > > SUPA defines an information model (i.e., a model that is independent > > of language, protocol, and repository) that consists of three pieces: > > > > 1) generic policy concepts (e.g., the target of a policy, and > > how policy is represented and structured) > > 2) an imperative model (i.e., event-condition-action) that is > > derived from (1) > > 3) a declarative model (i.e., propositional or first order logic) > > that is also derived from (1) > > > > This structure enables sets of policies to be defined, where a > > declarative policy could then trigger the evaluation of declarative > > and/or imperative policies, and vice-versa. > > > > I **think** that in ANIMA, the assumption has been that intent should > > be declarative in nature. Please correct me if I am wrong. > > Please also realize that SUPA is both more than this, and models > > declarative policy as formal logic. This has a large number of > > advantages, especially for autonomics; please let me know if these are > > not obvious. > > > > > > > It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed to > > > cross-AS boundaries, but it seems like they could easily do this. > > > > > > Indeed, they are. In my policy work, there is the concept of a policy > > domain, which is any domain whose entities are governed by a common > > set of policies. So the concept is actually broader than just ASs. > > > > > > > It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for SUPA to be > > > able to implement policies, but that's an operator convenience. > > > They could equally well use other (more expensive!) management > > > networks. > > > > > > Michael Behringer and I (and others, but I'm old so I have now > > forgotten who, sorry!) talked about this at IETF92. > > FOCALE (my autonomic architecture) chose the latter (mainly because > > ACP did not exist!) and I reflected that I wished I had thought of > > doing something like ACP. I feel that this would have made FOCALE more > > powerful and robust. > > > > > > > In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... > > > I don't think anyone overstated the situation, but I think that the > > > message that ANIMA Intents !=3D SUPA Intents was too understated. > > > > > > I have not seen ANIMA intent formally defined. I think it would be > > interesting to determine first, if ANIMA intent should use declarative > > logic or not (besides SUPA, ONF, OpenStack Congress, and to an extent, > > ODL GBP all use declarative logic), and second, if ANIMA intent is not > > going to use declarative logic, then why not? > > > > > > > Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) points on the list > > > to > > > IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo > > > > > > Note that NEMO says that they are defining a declarative policy, but > > in reality, NEMO implements this with imperative (i.e., > > condition-action) constructs. > > > > > > > It seems that there ought to be significant overlap, and yet I don't > > > see it. > > > > > > IF ANIMA intent decides to use declarative logic or imperative logic > > (in the form of event-condition-action), then I would hope that the > > two indeed overlap. However, until ANIMA formally defines what intent > > is, it is impossible to say. > > > > > > regards, > > John > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 12:50 PM, Michael Richardson < > mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote: > > > > {intentionally not cross-posted to SUPA} > > > > While working on other things today (and being at home with a > > pink-eyed kid), I found the tab that was open to watch the IETF93 SUPA > BOF. > > > > I also had saved ~80 emails from the SUPA list to read. > > I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match how > > we envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs. In particular, the model > > that is envisioned is far more SDN-like; that is with a > > uber-intelligent centralized command and control system that > > interprets SUPA Intents into things like Virtual Private Cloud > > (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various things like > > YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other data models) > > > > It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed to > > cross-AS boundaries, but it seems like they could easily do this. > > > > It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for SUPA to be > > able to implement policies, but that's an operator convenience. They > > could equally well use other (more expensive!) management networks. > > > > In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... I don't think > > anyone overstated the situation, but I think that the message that > > ANIMA Intents !=3D SUPA Intents was too understated. > > > > Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) points on the list to > > IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo > > > > There was a SUPA telecon yesterday morning, but I had a nomcom call, > > so I missed it. It seems that there ought to be significant overlap, > > and yet I don't see it. > > > > -- > > Michael Richardson > > >, Sandelman > > Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Anima mailing list > > Anima@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > > > > > > > > -- > > regards, > > John > > > > > > > > -- > > regards, > > John > > -- > --- > Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com > > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > > > > > -- > > regards, > > John > --=20 regards, John --047d7bd752628f2efb051e19cb20 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Bob,

you wrote:

As you know, I do applaud the va= liant effort that you and other active participants in the SUPA work are ma= king and I understand how difficult the task is. However, I believe that fo= r this next step in more effective PBNM standardizing the declarative frame= work is the major step forward that is achievable =E2=80=A6 it is, as you k= now better than anyone I can think of, a really large step =E2=80=A6 and on= e that has never been completed in the NM domain. I understand the difficul= ty that will remain in the translation of declarative to imperative, but am= looking forward to more advanced semantic technologies (writ large here) t= o provide that bridge. Reducing the declarative side of that problem from N= LP to a standardized constrained language (using the term loosely) will fac= ilitate (and hopefully hasten) that development.


<jcs>
I of course agree with you.

To date, the only real example of a declarative lan= guage for networking is OpenStack Congress, where I helped write a parser t= hat extends Datalog a bit to make it easier for administrative applications= .

However, none of the operators, CCIEs, or JCIEs = that I know of know Datalog, so while=C2=A0the Datalog variant in Congress = (and Datalog in general)=C2=A0is computationally efficient, I don't thi= nk that this is a workable solution for autonomics.

I've played with putting a simple (restricted) natural language front= -end on Congress - I think that this is closer to what operators would want= .

I think the chance of standardizing a restricte= d natural language front end for declarative policies is ZERO. Thus, I thin= k that the only chance we have is to pick some type of formal logic - I do = not care which - and then define some APIs that restrict what people do wit= h the language. That's why, in SUPA, I am defining two types of formal = logic for declarative policies - propositional logic and first order logic.= The former is much simpler than Datalog, while the latter is more robust (= but of course has to be restricted or it may not be computable).
=
I am TRYING to convince myself that this is all we need. I h= aven't succeeded :-( because where do the semantics go? That's why = (as you know) FOCALE used models (to represent facts) AND ontologies with d= escription logic (to reason about the facts). The use of a formal logic is = mandatory to make this work, and ontologies + logic enable a host of open s= ource reasoners to be used. I HAVE convinced myself that this will work, bu= t this is a heavyweight solution. I welcome the thoughts of you and others = - publicly or privately.
</jcs>

regards,
John
=
On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 5:43 AM, Natale, Bob= <RNATALE@mitre.org> wrote:

Thanks for the additional perspective, John =E2= =80=A6 wrt this point in particular:

<jcs> SUPA's goal is to standardize th= e concepts and the representation of both declarative and imperative polici= es. Unless you do that, then it will be difficult to (for example) have a declarative policy call an imperative one, and vice-versa. </jcs= >

=C2=A0

As you know, I do applaud the valiant effort tha= t you and other active participants in the SUPA work are making and I under= stand how difficult the task is. However, I believe that for this next step in more effective PBNM standardizing the declarati= ve framework is the major step forward that is achievable =E2=80=A6 it is, = as you know better than anyone I can think of, a really large step =E2=80= =A6 and one that has never been completed in the NM domain. I understand the difficulty that will remain in the translation of= declarative to imperative, but am looking forward to more advanced semanti= c technologies (writ large here) to provide that bridge. Reducing the decla= rative side of that problem from NLP to a standardized constrained language (using the term loosely) will f= acilitate (and hopefully hasten) that development.

=C2=A0

All of that is merely IMHO and FWIW, of course, = and possibly a little distracting from the good work at hand in SUPA, ANIMA= , and other efforts within and outside the IETF that you have cited in related messages.

=C2=A0

Avanti,

BobN

=C2=A0

From: John Strassner [mailto:strazpdj@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2015 5:03 PM
To: Natale, Bob <RNATALE@mitre.org>; John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com>
Cc: Toerless Eckert (eckert) <eckert@cisco.com>; Michael Behringer (mbehring) &= lt;mbehring@cisco.c= om>; Duzongpeng <duzongpeng@huawei.com>; Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca= >; Jason Coleman (colemaj) <colemaj@cisco.com>; Anima WG <anima@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Inten= ts

=C2=A0

Hi Bob,

=C2=A0

> One potential problem I see with this overall d= iscussion (not

>=C2=A0Toerless' posting immediately below, w= hich is very helpful in

>=C2=A0my judgment) is that the matter of declara= tive and imperative

>=C2=A0policies is not, in the general end-to-end= PBM case, an

>=C2=A0either/or situation:

=C2=A0

<jcs> +1 </jcs>

=C2=A0...

=C2=A0

> We have never standardized declarative at the l= evel that it is

>=C2=A0needed and pushing imperative too far up t= he continuum

>=C2=A0ultimately becomes counterproductive.

=C2=A0

<jcs> +1 </jcs>

> Autonomic solutions of any kind are attempts to shorten the<= /u>

>=C2=A0distance between the declarative and imper= ative endpoints,

>=C2=A0usually via greater degrees of "hidde= n" stuff. Shortening that

>=C2=A0distance is a good thing but -- to be done= correctly (esp. for

>=C2=A0uptake) -- depends (among other things) on= (1) a solution to

>=C2=A0the declarative problem and (2) transparen= cy on the

>=C2=A0imperative side.

=C2=A0

<jcs>=C2=A0It's actually harder than this.= For example, if I wanted to

ensure that every CPU in every VM operated between s= ome

minimum and maximum utilization, FINDING the set of = devices

to affect in a declarative language is TRIVIAL (a di= stributed

transitive closure); FINDING the set of devices=C2= =A0to affect in an

imperative language is VERY DIFFICULT.=

=C2=A0

In contrast,=C2=A0enforcing this policy in=C2=A0a de= clarative language is

much harder than in an imperative one.=C2=A0This is = one reason

why SUPA was built to enable declarative and imperat= ive

policies to be used together.

=C2=A0

The second reason was because of the policy continuu= m,

and the elegant description that you made above. <= ;/jcs>

...


> I was really hoping that SUPA would tackle the

> declarative problem head on and not confound th= ings

>=C2=A0with the imperative problem as well.

=C2=A0

<jcs> See above reason for why SUPA combined t= hem. </jcs>

=C2=A0

> I am not convinced=C2=A0that there should be on= e standard

>=C2=A0model for both at this=C2=A0stage. =

=C2=A0

<jcs> SUPA's goal is to standardize the co= ncepts and the

representation of both declarative and imperative po= licies.

Unless you do that, then it will be difficult to (fo= r example)

have a declarative policy call an imperative one, an= d

vice-versa. </jcs>

=C2=A0

regards,

John

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 8:20 AM, Natale, Bob <RNATALE@mitre.org&g= t; wrote:

[Lurker alert!]

John just wrote on a related posting:
"If you want simplicity, then the easiest way to build that is to have= a model that facilitates translation from some high-level form to an inter= mediate form that the system understands."

Simplicity is required. The model that facilitates translation is required = because that is the way the world works from (declarative) high-level busin= ess policies to (imperative) executable configuration. The Policy Continuum= is one such translation model that I will use for reference purposes here.

One potential problem I see with this overall discussion (not Toerless'= posting immediately below, which is very helpful in my judgment) is that t= he matter of declarative and imperative policies is not, in the general end= -to-end PBM case, an either/or situation:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Imperative is needed at the policy execution endpoint (rough= ly the "device" and "instance" views of the policy cont= inuum) -- even though that might be "hidden" to a greater or less= er degree.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Declarative is needed at the policy creation point (roughly = the "business", "system", and "admin" views o= f the policy continuum).

The "dividing line" in the middle of the continuum is not clear-c= ut ... it is very jagged, with spikes of declarative going farther "do= wn" and spikes of imperative going farther "up" ... but a lo= t more of the latter than the former. And that's the crux of the matter. We have never standardized declarative at the level that it is nee= ded and pushing imperative too far up the continuum ultimately becomes coun= terproductive.

Autonomic solutions of any kind are attempts to shorten the distance betwee= n the declarative and imperative endpoints, usually via greater degrees of = "hidden" stuff. Shortening that distance is a good thing but -- t= o be done correctly (esp. for uptake) -- depends (among other things) on (1) a solution to the declarative problem and (2) = transparency on the imperative side.

We have never effectively standardized the declarative capability for polic= y-based network management (PBNM, using a very liberal meaning for "ne= twork management" here). That is a show-stopper requirement. If we don= 't do that, we will just produce a new breed of partial solutions, resulting ultimately in more fragmentation and opera= tional inefficiency due mainly from the large "expression gap" be= tween how business decision-makers think and speak and how network technolo= gists think and build.

I was really hoping that SUPA would tackle the declarative problem head on = and not confound things with the imperative problem as well. I am not convi= nced that there should be one standard model for both at this stage. Impera= tive technology is widely deployed already (and growing constantly) ... of necessity. We've been able to = survive without enabling the declarative capability, but that has not produ= ced optimal PBNM solutions -- by a long shot! -- and is becoming ever less = tenable as the scope, scale, and pace of requirements continue to increase at growing rates.

Regardless, ANIMA needs the declarative solution that SUPA (and/or IBNEMO) = will provide.

Avanti,
BobN

-----Original Message-----
From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Toerless Eckert (eckert)
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2015 10:33 AM
To: Michael Behringer (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com>
Cc: Duzongpeng <duzongpeng@huawei.com>; Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>; J= ason Coleman (colemaj) <colemaj@cisco.com>; Anima WG <anima@ietf.org<= /a>>; John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents

The question really is what the requirements are to support us trying to ha= ve an opinion about intent (in anima).

Systems to build more intelligent networks start to incooperate a whole sle= w of layers/concepts and intent is thrown around everywhere. Then you have = big data and intent is expressed in that context, and you have semantic rea= soners trying to fulfill intent and so on and so forth.

IMHO, anima would do well try to figure out what problems exist outside ani= ma in the IETF and how anima can help. In the same was as more shorter term= in bootstrap, this could longer term (re-chartering) apply to stuff around= intent.

IMHO, it seems we already want to break up a system into components we call= ASAs, and Laurent has started to explain in his draft how multiple ASA nee= d coordination, and the way i read it, that would come through appropriate = declarative information that lays out eg: dependencies,which can then be resolved. I am not sure if these de= pendencies are intent, but they are clearly important declarative informato= in we need to tackle once we deal with ASAs.

Cheers
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Toerless


On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 12:03:08PM +0000, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrot= e:
> Probably we need to decide on a case-by-case basis. If (!) we allow im= perative statements (I???d still like to see why we couldn???t do it declar= ative first), I???d like a way to separate them out logically in the struct= ure of whichever encoding we???ll use. At least we can then keep the ???clean??? Intent separate from temporary w= orkarounds.
>
> Michael
>
> From: Duzongpeng [mailto:duzongpeng@huawei.com]
> Sent: 20 August 2015 13:29
> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); Jason Coleman (colemaj); John
> Strassner; Toerless Eckert (eckert)
> Cc: Michael Richardson; Anima WG
> Subject: RE: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents=
>
> Hi Michael Behringer:
>
> I agree that declarative intent has advantages.
>
> But IMO, in the beginning, we should start defining intent using the s= implest way no matter the intent is imperative or declarative.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Perhaps in future, when the autonomi= c node is intelligent enough to understand the declarative intent, we can r= eplace all the imperative ones.
>
> However in this time, we should not preclude imperative intents.
>
> Of course, in your example, ???Device x, do y???, this kind of Imperat= ive intent should be avoided.
>
> Best Regartds
> Zongpeng Du
>
>
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael
> Behringer (mbehring)
> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2015 6:54 PM
> To: Jason Coleman (colemaj); John Strassner; Toerless Eckert (eckert)<= br> > Cc: Michael Richardson; Anima WG
> Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents=
>
> My view: Let???s keep intent purely declarative. If you need to suppor= t imperative concepts, do this through traditional methods, like CLI, netco= nf, etc.
>
> Imperative says: Device x, do y. To me, that is not autonomic. And we = shouldn???t pretend it is.
>
> Now, this is a bit of a purist view, and I???ve heard comments along t= he lines: ???well, if we have this nice Intent concept, we want to use it f= or everything???. I???d rather keep it separate, but that is just a persona= l opinion of course ???=C2=A0 (A strong one though! ???
>
> Michael
>
> From: Jason Coleman (colemaj)
> Sent: 20 August 2015 12:18
> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); John Strassner; Toerless Eckert
> (eckert)
> Cc: Michael Richardson; Anima WG
> Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents=
>
> Why not allow both declarative and imperative in the structure of ANIM= A and the delivery through and by the ACP and GRASP.
> How the Intent is then used by the end node is up to the developer of = that node at that point.
> The node could be developed to only digest declarative or always allow= declarative and only imperative for a discreet set of items that it suppor= ts in that regard.
>
> --
> Jason Coleman CCIE#12069
> jmcoleman@cis= co.com<mailto:jmcoleman@cisco.com>
> phone: +1 512-34= 0-3134
> Technical Lead Engineer CMS
>
> This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the so= le use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, distribution or disclosu= re by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient = (or authorized to receive for the recipient), please contact the sender by reply email and delete all copies of this mes= sage.
> For corporate legal information go to:
> http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/index.html
>
>
> From: Anima on behalf of "Michael Behringer (mbehring)"
> Date: Thursday, August 20, 2015 at 3:58 AM
> To: John Strassner, "Toerless Eckert (eckert)"
> Cc: Michael Richardson, Anima WG
> Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents=
>
> To me it is clear that ANIMA Intent is declarative. It describes the d= esired outcome, not the way to get to it. That???s exactly what Autonomics = is all about, in fact. Different devices have different way to achieve thin= gs, different capabilities. In an imperative approach those different ways and capabilities would have to be expressed.=
>
> The reason the industry is having trouble with ACL management is exact= ly because it is imperative. It???s just the wrong approach for most use ca= ses.
>
> Autonomics aims to abstract away device specifics and to provide one h= igher level view of the network. That???s exactly the declarative approach.= I really hope we have agreement on that.
>
> Disclaimer: For practical reasons (device capabilities) it may well be= required for some time to do some hacks in Intent that are imperative. As = long as we all understand it???s a temporary hack, and are explicit about i= t, that???s ok.
>
> So, do we agree that Intent is declarative? Any objections? We should = really get agreement on that???
>
> Michael
>
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of John
> Strassner
> Sent: 20 August 2015 04:53
> To: Toerless Eckert (eckert); John Strassner
> Cc: Michael Richardson; Anima WG
> Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents=
>
> Hi Toerless,
>
> I don't think it is that simple, unfortunately. Let's say that= a NOC
> operator wants to issue something like the following:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "Any CPU in any VM whose utilization is > 70% sho= uld be
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0load-balanced."
>
> The imperative version is, well, ugly:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 1) First, you have to translate what this means into a fo= rm
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 that a device could consume. This isn't= particularly hard
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 in this example, but it still has to be don= e.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 2) If the policy repository did not have a matching rule,=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 then you have to build one. But, how do you= find every
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 device that should be affected? Even if we = change the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 rule to make it more explicit (e.g., s./CPU= /router CPU),
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 this is a nightmare, because you now need t= o look at
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the topology and build n of these rules jus= t to do the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 check, and some smaller number to do the lo= ad-balancing.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 3) If the policy repository does have matches, how do you=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 know that they cover all of the cases?
>
> In contrast, the declarative version is trivial: just do a distributed=
> transitive closure which finds all of the devices that meet the
> criteria, and then apply the load balancing to this set.
>
> So, in theory, you could use declarative to identify what devices you<= br> > could then apply imperative policies to.
>
> In contrast, setting an ACL would be trivial with imperative, but much=
> more difficult with declarative (because you would have to translate > the declarative policy to something the device could consume).
>
> This is likely one reason I have gray hair.
>
> regards,
> John
>
> On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Toerless Eckert (eckert) <eckert@cisco.com<mail= to:eckert@cisco.com>> wrote:
> Does supa have opinions about the reaction time of imperative logic ? = If it wants to support fast reaction, that would then imply the logic has t= o run in eg: the routers as opposed to an sdn controller.
>
> I am also not sure i could decide between declarative and imperative..= . is an acces list imperative ? Is the name of a well known access list dec= larative ?
>
> Toerless
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my Samsung Captivate Glide on AT&T
>
> John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com<mailto:strazpdj@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Hi Michael,
>
> I've been involved in SUPA, but also in ANIMA; here is my perspect= ive:
>
> > I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match = how
> > we envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs.
>
> <jcs>
> I'm not sure what is envisioned with intent in ANIMA; I have
> previously posted that I don't think that there is enough detail o= n
> what intent is and what it is supposed to do in ANIMA.
> </jcs>
>
> > In particular, the model that is envisioned is far more SDN-like;=
> > that is with a uber-intelligent centralized command and control > > system that interprets SUPA Intents into things like Virtual Priv= ate
> > Cloud (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various things like
> > YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other data models) >
> <jcs>
> I'm personally not a big SDN fan for a number of reasons, and at l= east
> in the I-Ds that I've written for SUPA, that is far from the visio= n
> that I have had. But this is just my opinion; others may differ.
>
> SUPA defines an information model (i.e., a model that is independent > of language, protocol, and repository) that consists of three pieces:<= br> >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 1) generic policy concepts (e.g., the target of a policy,= and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 how policy is represented and structured) >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 2) an imperative model (i.e., event-condition-action) tha= t is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 derived from (1)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 3) a declarative model (i.e., propositional or first orde= r logic)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 that is also derived from (1)
>
> This structure enables sets of policies to be defined, where a
> declarative policy could then trigger the evaluation of declarative > and/or imperative policies, and vice-versa.
>
> I **think** that in ANIMA, the assumption has been that intent should<= br> > be declarative in nature. Please correct me if I am wrong.
> Please also realize that SUPA is both more than this, and models
> declarative policy as formal logic. This has a large number of
> advantages, especially for autonomics; please let me know if these are=
> not obvious.
> </jcs>
>
> > It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed= to
> > cross-AS boundaries, but it seems like they could easily do this.=
>
> <jcs>
> Indeed, they are. In my policy work, there is the concept of a policy<= br> > domain, which is any domain whose entities are governed by a common > set of policies. So the concept is actually broader than just ASs.
> </jcs>
>
> > It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for SUPA to b= e
> > able to implement policies, but that's an operator convenienc= e.
> > They could equally well use other (more expensive!) management > > networks.
>
> <jcs>
> Michael Behringer and I (and others, but I'm old so I have now
> forgotten who, sorry!) talked about this at IETF92.
> FOCALE (my autonomic architecture) chose the latter (mainly because > ACP did not exist!) and I reflected that I wished I had thought of
> doing something like ACP. I feel that this would have made FOCALE more=
> powerful and robust.
> </jcs>
>
> > In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA...
> > I don't think anyone overstated the situation, but I think th= at the
> > message that ANIMA Intents !=3D SUPA Intents was too understated.=
>
> <jcs>
> I have not seen ANIMA intent formally defined. I think it would be
> interesting to determine first, if ANIMA intent should use declarative=
> logic or not (besides SUPA, ONF, OpenStack Congress, and to an extent,=
> ODL GBP all use declarative logic), and second, if ANIMA intent is not=
> going to use declarative logic, then why not?
> </jcs>
>
> > Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) points on the= list
> > to
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo
>
> <jcs>
> Note that NEMO says that they are defining a declarative policy, but > in reality, NEMO implements this with imperative (i.e.,
> condition-action) constructs.
> </jcs>
>
> > It seems that there ought to be significant overlap, and yet I do= n't
> > see it.
>
> <jcs>
> IF ANIMA intent decides to use declarative logic or imperative logic > (in the form of event-condition-action), then I would hope that the > two indeed overlap. However, until ANIMA formally defines what intent<= br> > is, it is impossible to say.
> </jcs>
>
> regards,
> John
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 12:50 PM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca&l= t;mailto:mcr+i= etf@sandelman.ca>> wrote:
>
> {intentionally not cross-posted to SUPA}
>
> While working on other things today (and being at home with a
> pink-eyed kid), I found the tab that was open to watch the IETF93 SUPA= BOF.
>
> I also had saved ~80 emails from the SUPA list to read.
> I found that the use cases from the SUPA BOF do not really match how > we envision Intents to work with ANIMA ASAs.=C2=A0 In particular, the = model
> that is envisioned is far more SDN-like; that is with a
> uber-intelligent centralized command and control system that
> interprets SUPA Intents into things like Virtual Private Cloud
> (VPC/VPN) configurations, via various things like
> YANG/NETCONF/RESTCONF models, (but probably other data models)
>
> It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed to > cross-AS boundaries, but it seems like they could easily do this.
>
> It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for SUPA to be
> able to implement policies, but that's an operator convenience.=C2= =A0 They
> could equally well use other (more expensive!) management networks. >
> In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... I don't th= ink
> anyone overstated the situation, but I think that the message that
> ANIMA Intents !=3D SUPA Intents was too understated.
>
> Bert Wijnen (didn't he declare he was retired?) points on the list= to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 IBNEMO - https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ibnemo
>
> There was a SUPA telecon yesterday morning, but I had a nomcom call, > so I missed it.=C2=A0 It seems that there ought to be significant over= lap,
> and yet I don't see it.
>
> --
> Michael Richardson
> <mcr+I= ETF@sandelman.ca<mailto:mcr%2BIETF@sandelman.ca>>, Sandelman
> Software Works=C2=A0 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org= <mailto:Anima@ietf.o= rg>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>
>
>
> --
> regards,
> John
>
>
>
> --
> regards,
> John

--
---
Toerless Eckert, ecke= rt@cisco.com

_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
h= ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima




--

regards,

John




--
regards,
John
--047d7bd752628f2efb051e19cb20-- From nobody Mon Aug 24 19:55:00 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B92B81AD1D5 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 2015 19:54:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -12.411 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-12.411 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IXHASH_X1=1.5, J_CHICKENPOX_51=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wu51V-7c6OSp for ; Mon, 24 Aug 2015 19:54:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-2.cisco.com (alln-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.142.89]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C3421AD16B for ; Mon, 24 Aug 2015 19:54:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=413; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1440471297; x=1441680897; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:mime-version; bh=QYV+lVCho+DueAxdP8Nc1ybDLADsCSG2xdIxI23Pe1o=; b=YOUuWsialiowUDH7TBZsxPdNNu1avoSfaT0GaFXcfD9rsomlpQEtH6GU ecAL/C57tyu8ggMQx/PRyx7l0cl4fCKD2PhT6axwFd9QpRaQybgF6Rjt1 pQ+qvK1ynBPfNckZoz/DqCvssoWwYI+xDqFqZbUw2YHYwPP31TFllkeiP k=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0CkAgDO2NtV/49dJa1cgxtUG0+9fwEJgXeHKjgUAQEBAQEBAYEKhGR7NAWJCg2iJaR7AQoBAQEekA1ygwGBFAWNXodWcIt/A4FKh0yROSaEHh6BQYE+AQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.15,743,1432598400"; d="scan'208";a="181064691" Received: from rcdn-core-7.cisco.com ([173.37.93.143]) by alln-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 25 Aug 2015 02:54:56 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by rcdn-core-7.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t7P2stkM011574 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 02:54:56 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t7P2stA5012538 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 2015 19:54:55 -0700 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id t7P2stWK012537 for anima@ietf.org; Mon, 24 Aug 2015 19:54:55 -0700 Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 19:54:55 -0700 From: Toerless Eckert To: anima@ietf.org Message-ID: <20150825025455.GB12104@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Subject: [Anima] Interesting read X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 02:54:58 -0000 http://www.dhs.gov/publication/draft-lces-security-comments On the site, there?s a mailbox for submitting comments to DHS until September 30, 2015. (via Nancy Cam Winget). From nobody Tue Aug 25 07:14:48 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EC181B3043 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 07:14:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.611 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.611 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MD5hWVDUu9tr for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 07:14:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1CAD61B2FC1 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 07:14:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A55B200A3; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 10:33:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 6367063B10; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 10:14:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AD8563AD9; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 10:14:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: John Strassner In-Reply-To: References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 24.4.2 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Archived-At: Cc: Anima WG Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 14:14:47 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain John Strassner wrote: > I've been involved in SUPA, but also in ANIMA; here is my perspective: Thank you! > I **think** that in ANIMA, the assumption has been that intent > should be declarative in nature. Please correct me if I am wrong. Yes, it must be declarative in nature, and but most importantly is that the (signed) Intent will be interpreted in many places to form local logic. >> It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed >> to cross-AS boundaries, but it seems like they could easily >> do this. > > Indeed, they are. In my policy work, there is the concept of a > policy domain, which is any domain whose entities are > governed by a common set of policies. So the concept is > actually broader than just ASs. > I think that ANIMA Intents are not intended to cross-AS. At least: we don't intend that the Intents be validatable cross-AS. This may mean that they can simpler, or it may have no impact at all. >> It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for >> SUPA to be able to implement policies, but that's an >> operator convenience. They could equally well use other >> (more expensive!) management networks. > > Michael Behringer and I (and others, but I'm old so I have > now forgotten who, sorry!) talked about this at IETF92. > FOCALE (my autonomic architecture) chose the latter pointer to FOCALE? >> In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... >> I don't think anyone overstated the situation, but I think >> that the message that ANIMA Intents != SUPA Intents >> was too understated. > > I have not seen ANIMA intent formally defined. I think it > would be interesting to determine first, if ANIMA intent > should use declarative logic or not (besides SUPA, > ONF, OpenStack Congress, and to an extent, ODL GBP > all use declarative logic), and second, if ANIMA intent > is not going to use declarative logic, then why not? > We have intentionally left Intent out of scope at this point. It could be that we can leave it partially out of scope if we can leverage SUPA; likely we would write some kind of profile of SUPA in that case. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBVdx4TYCLcPvd0N1lAQJFiQf/bZ9lWLaPwdjSs+/PRfW8/7vE3Pe4mNxC pLYucwRk1/JGsqBc+rr5AKVP4M9YHaxBf42MlHOJiPaFpiRl91pPCBIqzdgX0Pj6 1sWalIOR3KIfwlcWa9jyzjoXPu9y5n3d1nsJ1lPee3xhR5SyqpXa2x0Jw5CmoDQ2 TaTJJd6/41zhPbh69Mi6fGcL459sA9MOELTHXDwssN1VGVR/w7oUzGe23zVM+eqU AvPmCMNY1f7qWDe9Ky9L1IRXoaDD62MneD9QQ3EeIpx+d8/eqLkl7dL/FMGLWq7F Isr8r5usUpOtyEn5BZNJsf7syYkEZyuaVUDFbhvkLQrKLkM/1a+/Fw== =qAfR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Aug 25 07:17:31 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAF9C1B2B27 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 07:17:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kLqp3mmcyWqR for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 07:17:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 804751B2ECF for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 07:17:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id D436AE007; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 10:36:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 5A4B963B10; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 10:17:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44FAC63AD9; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 10:17:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" In-Reply-To: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A857@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A659@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A857@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 24.4.2 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Archived-At: Cc: "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , "Jason Coleman \(colemaj\)" , Anima WG , John Strassner Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 14:17:30 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote: > My view: Let=E2=80=99s keep intent purely declarative. If you need to= support > imperative concepts, do this through traditional methods, like CLI, > netconf, etc. I would suggest that a reasonable ASA that might exist is a device that can perform declarative Intent -> CLI translation :-) > Now, this is a bit of a purist view, and I=E2=80=99ve heard comments = along the > lines: =E2=80=9Cwell, if we have this nice Intent concept, we want to= use it > for everything=E2=80=9D. I=E2=80=99d rather keep it separate, but tha= t is just a > personal opinion of course J (A strong one though! J =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBVdx4+ICLcPvd0N1lAQIbxggAoZGcRbhJZt2KEAeqn6+JF4uqg3598KGT Ju9RbMC7PtFGPwkfJpjrdaLgyH07X6F7BRU7wiqoWYHhTqT2x5lSHOhj9IOjs+St 8K72zX9ggdOJ2eSinBS4ML45mpK56sGBZmoURbEenYpWVOy0bLbFeeD2NlMLDZXx L80tp+OIhWvnCxxb9ZLKDLN+DP/0+/GUhJQS32LyiOwn3j/34U7AprGsqb6AU1n5 1zpPn8ChPuQYjSLzLSMBbtH5eKd5ZoUr8/WE/BVlK5xmdFIZ2bDzZr7/LDbHKuws L6CFQaXYkcPYrjpSJtGyq95v/5HXWt3U193sG8eNdbgP01LuWWNimg== =oCyq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Aug 25 07:38:52 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 560AE1B304A for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 07:38:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.611 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.611 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id deNARU6H8pA8 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 07:38:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 81B241B2FE9 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 07:38:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CA94E007 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 10:57:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id BDD9B63B10; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 10:38:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id A90E863AD9 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 10:38:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Anima WG In-Reply-To: References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 24.4.2 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 14:38:49 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain John Strassner wrote: > I don't think it is that simple, unfortunately. Let's say that a NOC > operator wants to issue something like the following: > "Any CPU in any VM whose utilization is > 70% should be > load-balanced." I wouldn't write it that way, btw. I would write: "Arrange VM guest distribution so that (CPU) utilization is < 70%" (I might also write: "Arrange VM guest distribution so that power utilization is > 70%" or: "Arrange VM guest distribution so that (RAM) utilization is > 20% on each host machine", or maybe some other energy saving rules) I would then expect an the system to realize: 1) it needs a system to collect CPU and power utilization. [this would turn into a service discovery] 2) VM hosts need to report that information to supervisor. 3) VM hosts with ILOMs need to delegate credentials to supervisor that enable power control; specifically power-on control. 4) that NAS needs to be setup to enable migration of VMs 5) that it needs to turn on enough hosts, and configure them as VM servers, such that: a) there are enough hosts to keep CPU utilization < 70%. b) there are few enough hosts powered so that electicity isn't wasted -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBVdx99oCLcPvd0N1lAQK4Vwf+KrD0ZCJTyLXLIwZm0ZVdfS6VlIuKH7VV 6a9Ef1W59TQkXRAL54S3IXcWm9Qez17XoZzGA+3Rg+YJZjPuSaJy143SWjvWc2ro vplQINgE7iXuCflaN8oCw0sp7jUaTpu63DaLiRaoaU4nD44Fzbw/VbCJCTj9kV/e 7xBw610l/4VFAbyZ9wzv8kXUiIw7qSJPyZyziu1/1ut0dYdTt+fL6Ko5uAKPVZii br/dgKAQCEgnMF1a+sGIVeCLKqKZEZvgNDhZ3D/3qMCOKENrWHCQGrSUUV2iclUR nBmJ20CBoYXQfjwJwcHs25IzZykrPapapVxyRFmdnhAur4KLLvV+3Q== =abA/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Aug 25 07:48:55 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8C1A1A8841 for ; 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Tue, 25 Aug 2015 14:48:48 +0000 From: "Natale, Bob" To: Michael Richardson , John Strassner Thread-Topic: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents Thread-Index: AQHQ30BfDVvoijDJwE2GnQqQDYedlp4cynvQ Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 14:48:48 +0000 Message-ID: References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> <15605.1440512077@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <15605.1440512077@sandelman.ca> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=RNATALE@mitre.org; x-originating-ip: [128.29.234.168] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; CY1PR09MB0921; 5:vK5YjVEDtncOFRiGoIPcr5X/gem60VPRjBjZyz80wxBtb+OTlZw1wM7VsmwGUZDaavw1CURzn5Nr8RCTalwxcpSo6ZwKDuFgK7SwUAGN/bXIFRp8q620GXgG3oxK4Fu8s21kNkBc6PFGiwmpnFIgSw==; 24:s0JMi7D3biwqX5ijmpJkCS8a+dwWezZsV9uy+nL9l19Sj2h+OVDG19EWwJQLiIqVQULVXEfGSDoTWqmXaxNx9v5ENt5zzH37wv0n0Ve93CI=; 20:w+dXxa2o5LdZTRkTD+b0AB5zNiyDYf+tM1Zdqau+yUULNaSR56qX3EXEfJfq9d9MyBV8uf6hpxPnnNFPvR/4Uw== x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:CY1PR09MB0921; 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PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: mitre.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:23 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: mitre.org X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 25 Aug 2015 14:48:48.5745 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: c620dc48-1d50-4952-8b39-df4d54d74d82 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY1PR09MB0921 Archived-At: Cc: Anima WG Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 14:48:54 -0000 > We have intentionally left Intent out of scope at this point. > It could be that we can leave it partially out of scope if we can leverag= e SUPA; likely we would write some kind of profile of SUPA in that case. This strikes me as a very smart approach ... with the caveat that ANIMA con= tributors would monitor SUPA work in the meantime to ensure that an appropr= iate profile (i.e., one that meets the needs of ANIMA) can, in fact, be con= structed. (I am not certain that the notion of profiling is currently in the SUPA wor= k plan, but it seems like it should be ... or maybe John knows that it will= emerge naturally.) Avanti, BobN -----Original Message----- From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Richardson Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 10:15 AM To: John Strassner Cc: Anima WG Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents John Strassner wrote: > I've been involved in SUPA, but also in ANIMA; here is my perspective= : Thank you! > I **think** that in ANIMA, the assumption has been that intent > should be declarative in nature. Please correct me if I am wrong. Yes, it must be declarative in nature, and but most importantly is that the (signed) Intent will be interpreted in many places to form local logic. >> It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed >> to cross-AS boundaries, but it seems like they could easily >> do this. > > Indeed, they are. In my policy work, there is the concept of a > policy domain, which is any domain whose entities are > governed by a common set of policies. So the concept is > actually broader than just ASs. > I think that ANIMA Intents are not intended to cross-AS. At least: we don't intend that the Intents be validatable cross-AS. This may mean that they can simpler, or it may have no impact at all. >> It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for >> SUPA to be able to implement policies, but that's an >> operator convenience. They could equally well use other >> (more expensive!) management networks. > > Michael Behringer and I (and others, but I'm old so I have > now forgotten who, sorry!) talked about this at IETF92. > FOCALE (my autonomic architecture) chose the latter pointer to FOCALE? >> In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... >> I don't think anyone overstated the situation, but I think >> that the message that ANIMA Intents !=3D SUPA Intents >> was too understated. > > I have not seen ANIMA intent formally defined. I think it > would be interesting to determine first, if ANIMA intent > should use declarative logic or not (besides SUPA, > ONF, OpenStack Congress, and to an extent, ODL GBP > all use declarative logic), and second, if ANIMA intent > is not going to use declarative logic, then why not? > We have intentionally left Intent out of scope at this point. It could be that we can leave it partially out of scope if we can leverage = SUPA; likely we would write some kind of profile of SUPA in that case. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D = IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- From nobody Tue Aug 25 09:34:22 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F1A81A1A33 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 09:34:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I9NtPOUe66Lf for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 09:34:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D21F11A1A27 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 09:34:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FD43203AD for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 12:53:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 9ED5163B10; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 12:34:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78D9963AD9 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 12:34:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Anima WG In-Reply-To: References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> <15605.1440512077@sandelman.ca> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 24.4.2 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 16:34:21 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Natale, Bob wrote: >> We have intentionally left Intent out of scope at this point. >> It could be that we can leave it partially out of scope if we can >> leverage SUPA; likely we would write some kind of profile of SUPA in >> that case. > This strikes me as a very smart approach ... with the caveat that ANIMA > contributors would monitor SUPA work in the meantime to ensure that an > appropriate profile (i.e., one that meets the needs of ANIMA) can, in > fact, be constructed. In order for us to do this, we (ANIMA) need to have some well described reference use cases. I don't think we have this in our charter (just checked, no). I'm hesistant to suggest adding it at this time, though. I would suggest that we go for something like two very simple, very concrete use cases, and two more "pie-in-the-sky" ideas. Our charter does give us one example: "A simple example is assigning address prefixes to network segments in a large and constantly changing network." -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBVdyZCoCLcPvd0N1lAQJnkQf8DhToJ8GghBWx3bIar7Snqjtw7ItOf4yj 5nPP3HLvjJnyFXp9VoxVqdDx+TOCp9zoaoIb7MUmH3G/USAq9e+RcUn0mhH1YkOe oNit457w3ZO0zJkafpx/yi3sY6JXE+lHixVN8BVZ1pZTYYWjheRcuEikXCJFc0Xq DA7Z5C08xj1FDLyHZNrtuYtLujyV30yf7E0OBlPWcpWrgpTLWcIe3IjexvSVf17N hL8xIX8APK9SQZDp2twPFIY/lI+h6RPVbHfJ1RGH5tdwMqJgVACHCjeV9vY//Ljo ksMfCAD5S3rQzpWfxigJA40IsmG7bNAqMOK1fbe6z6bu0nOj2N6smw== =viPy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Aug 25 13:20:05 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FC031AC443 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:20:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P1eaM-7yg5EG for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:20:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x22e.google.com (mail-pa0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A9A0A1AC40B for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:20:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pabzx8 with SMTP id zx8so43854097pab.1 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:20:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:from:organization:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=EyNsGvnSLo0ktFaSx6SQVfC+5gi/7BLiUSjzgwUcOUk=; b=jKvDfdWEY2Q3R7Oq9YEpRCjS1s/IQXySuVKysJN0DsCIRpkpO+8I3bbi9+xzcNKO3w hhszPsAHm9rHPJ1tsDjCeyMuD3vHnQpyow1kcfiHw9WQ/W7CBCyGaJlJgg8W0lYmitAz HYAgfhkcOz4n8vx08qarWLZoQRD5+z0Pw5mEEU9hLBkL8RwjKkyQiMMZQVnkoRLsf2dU OdxK0cuREYfH9LIsXus5Pj2B8wqFofCfPIQEpSOFzvzwzgNBnKI6rY8ol42n8Pjh+0+L c4yHcwBpOiTgeYDpDWtuox9/GasPa9wItL57VkD3M2rYyVoVzqMm8/N+w9n17JJsSUEn vdiA== X-Received: by 10.66.131.10 with SMTP id oi10mr12350716pab.87.1440534002296; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:20:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:5e17:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:5e17:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id bz1sm21982612pbb.85.2015.08.25.13.19.59 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:20:01 -0700 (PDT) To: Michael Richardson , Anima WG References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> <15605.1440512077@sandelman.ca> <15659.1440520458@sandelman.ca> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <55DCCDF1.9040904@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 08:20:01 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <15659.1440520458@sandelman.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 20:20:04 -0000 On 26/08/2015 04:34, Michael Richardson wrote: > > Natale, Bob wrote: > >> We have intentionally left Intent out of scope at this point. > >> It could be that we can leave it partially out of scope if we can > >> leverage SUPA; likely we would write some kind of profile of SUPA in > >> that case. > > > This strikes me as a very smart approach ... with the caveat that ANIMA > > contributors would monitor SUPA work in the meantime to ensure that an > > appropriate profile (i.e., one that meets the needs of ANIMA) can, in > > fact, be constructed. > > In order for us to do this, we (ANIMA) need to have some well described > reference use cases. I don't think we have this in our charter (just > checked, no). I'm hesistant to suggest adding it at this time, though. > > I would suggest that we go for something like two very simple, very > concrete use cases, and two more "pie-in-the-sky" ideas. Our charter does > give us one example: > > "A simple example is assigning address prefixes to network segments in a > large and constantly changing network." And that's the one where we do have some sketchy intent statements already written down: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-01#section-5.1 Brian From nobody Tue Aug 25 13:42:14 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 829651A01A5 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:42:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rRtpzIZtMQX6 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:42:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-x232.google.com (mail-lb0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 05EFE1A8BB4 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:42:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lbbsx3 with SMTP id sx3so107663771lbb.0 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:42:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=yTedUUQVgCHvYHK7nty1NEaPUpmDPf4Z3sgO4K+W71s=; b=XD89MDh+WyAksUg5w1YqLnnXQ8dS9eX41o1Ptfhpe61VyLwd/0eEl/LtPlB3FwiPc1 FVL7YU0Bfrw9l7v+GxYuLoJ97Zbx6ZyUovL8fG/+E1oqvxgO1Owr27rsyOaB9ww/EKsx LdmVWJIWSYaZRb20JCltA+3zp91vNKjW4VXwuvSTZmjtI7/GuFBm4/ShHAB9Ll6rdXrQ pwg2SBF0z8gn54OOGDNiVocAZJBdRWoStCYgmuYbIQP2Cm/ucIB0OjKWKVBlQYGcP/31 xu8IZ/w7JkEsVkDJYYZmGim0+1rYalqMVO9MnyZFSD0rr5poY11TJfGTtAdPeJmoG6L2 O2cA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.162.2 with SMTP id xw2mr27144615lbb.98.1440535329360; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:42:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.25.198.7 with HTTP; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:42:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <15605.1440512077@sandelman.ca> References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> <15605.1440512077@sandelman.ca> Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:42:09 -0700 Message-ID: From: John Strassner To: Michael Richardson , John Strassner Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e01182e2697d228051e28c4e6 Archived-At: Cc: Anima WG Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 20:42:13 -0000 --089e01182e2697d228051e28c4e6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Michael, > I think that ANIMA Intents are not intended to cross-AS. > At least: we don't intend that the Intents be validatable cross-AS. > This may mean that they can simpler, or it may have no impact > at all. I think that this DOES make life simpler, both from the security side as well as from the expression of the intent (and its subsequent translation. Perhaps we could talk more at the Yokohama meeting. ... > pointer to FOCALE? The original architecture was defined in 2005. Here's a reference to the first journal paper: J. Strassner, N. Agoulmine, E. Lehtihet, =E2=80=9CFOCALE =E2=80=93 A Novel Autonomic Networking Architecture=E2=80=9D, ITSSA Journal, Vol. , No. 1, May 2007, pages 64-79, ISSN 1751-1461 I can send you a copy if you like; just didn't want to flood everyone's email unnecessarily ... > We have intentionally left Intent out of scope at this point. > It could be that we can leave it partially out of scope if we > can leverage SUPA; likely we would write some kind of > profile of SUPA in that case. This is a good idea. SUPA hasn't considered that yet, but I would do everything I could to help support this. regards, John On Tue, Aug 25, 2015 at 7:14 AM, Michael Richardson wrote: > > John Strassner wrote: > > I've been involved in SUPA, but also in ANIMA; here is my > perspective: > > Thank you! > > > I **think** that in ANIMA, the assumption has been that intent > > should be declarative in nature. Please correct me if I am wrong. > > Yes, it must be declarative in nature, and but most importantly is that t= he > (signed) Intent will be interpreted in many places to form local logic. > > >> It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed > >> to cross-AS boundaries, but it seems like they could easily > >> do this. > > > > > Indeed, they are. In my policy work, there is the concept of a > > policy domain, which is any domain whose entities are > > governed by a common set of policies. So the concept is > > actually broader than just ASs. > > > > I think that ANIMA Intents are not intended to cross-AS. > At least: we don't intend that the Intents be validatable cross-AS. > This may mean that they can simpler, or it may have no impact at all. > > >> It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for > >> SUPA to be able to implement policies, but that's an > >> operator convenience. They could equally well use other > >> (more expensive!) management networks. > > > > > Michael Behringer and I (and others, but I'm old so I have > > now forgotten who, sorry!) talked about this at IETF92. > > FOCALE (my autonomic architecture) chose the latter > > pointer to FOCALE? > > >> In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... > >> I don't think anyone overstated the situation, but I think > >> that the message that ANIMA Intents !=3D SUPA Intents > >> was too understated. > > > > > I have not seen ANIMA intent formally defined. I think it > > would be interesting to determine first, if ANIMA intent > > should use declarative logic or not (besides SUPA, > > ONF, OpenStack Congress, and to an extent, ODL GBP > > all use declarative logic), and second, if ANIMA intent > > is not going to use declarative logic, then why not? > > > > We have intentionally left Intent out of scope at this point. > It could be that we can leave it partially out of scope if we can leverag= e > SUPA; likely we would write some kind of profile of SUPA in that case. > > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- > > > > --=20 regards, John --089e01182e2697d228051e28c4e6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Michael,

> I think tha= t ANIMA Intents are not intended to cross-AS.
> At least: we don'= ;t intend that the Intents be validatable cross-AS.
> This may mean = that they can simpler, or it may have no impact
>=C2=A0at all.=

<jcs>
I think that this DOES make= life simpler, both from the security
side as well as from the ex= pression of the intent (and its
subsequent translation. Perhaps w= e could talk more at
the Yokohama meeting.
</jcs>=

...

> pointer to FOCALE?

<jcs= >
The original architecture was defined in 2005. Here's a<= /div>
reference to the first journal paper:

J. Strassner, N. Agoulmine, E. Lehtihet, =E2= =80=9CFOCALE =E2=80=93 A Novel
Autonomic Network= ing Architecture=E2=80=9D, ITSSA Journal,
Vol. , No. 1, May 2007, pages 64-79, ISSN 1751-1461

<= font size=3D"2">I can send you a copy if you like; just didn't want to = flood
everyone's email unnecessarily
</jcs>

...

> We have intentionally left Inten= t out of scope at this point.
> It could be that we can leave it par= tially out of scope if we
>=C2=A0can leverage SUPA; likely we would w= rite some kind of
> profile of SUPA in that case.

&= lt;jcs>
This is a good idea. SUPA hasn't considered that y= et, but
I would do everything I could to help support this.
=
</jcs>

regards,
John

On Tue, Aug 25= , 2015 at 7:14 AM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:

John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com= > wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I've been involved in SUPA, but also in ANIMA; here = is my perspective:

Thank you!

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I **think** that in ANIMA, the assumption has been that = intent
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > should be declarative in nature. Please correct me if I = am wrong.

Yes, it must be declarative in nature, and but most importantly is that the=
(signed) Intent will be interpreted in many places to form local logic.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going t= o be designed
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> to cross-AS boundaries, but it seems like they could= easily
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> do this.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <jcs>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Indeed, they are. In my policy work, there is the concep= t of a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > policy domain, which is any domain whose entities are =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > governed by a common set of policies. So the concept is<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > actually broader than just ASs.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > </jcs>

I think that ANIMA Intents are not intended to cross-AS.
At least: we don't intend that the Intents be validatable cross-AS.
This may mean that they can simpler, or it may have no impact at all.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important = for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> SUPA to be able to implement policies, but that'= s an
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> operator convenience. They could equally well use ot= her
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> (more expensive!) management networks.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <jcs>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Michael Behringer and I (and others, but I'm old so = I have
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > now forgotten who, sorry!) talked about this at IETF92.<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > FOCALE (my autonomic architecture) chose the latter

pointer to FOCALE?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA= ...
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> I don't think anyone overstated the situation, b= ut I think
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> that the message that ANIMA Intents !=3D SUPA Intent= s
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> was too understated.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <jcs>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I have not seen ANIMA intent formally defined. I think i= t
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > would be interesting to determine first, if ANIMA intent=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > should use declarative logic or not (besides SUPA,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > ONF, OpenStack Congress, and to an extent, ODL GBP
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > all use declarative logic), and second, if ANIMA intent<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > is not going to use declarative logic, then why not?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > </jcs>

We have intentionally left Intent out of scope at this point.
It could be that we can leave it partially out of scope if we can leverage<= br> SUPA; likely we would write some kind of profile of SUPA in that case.


--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@= sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
=C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-






--
regards,
John
--089e01182e2697d228051e28c4e6-- From nobody Tue Aug 25 13:48:40 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33FC41B2FB2 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:48:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D6KzTR1n9Y1h for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:48:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-la0-x229.google.com (mail-la0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c03::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 694CE1B2FAE for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:48:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by laba3 with SMTP id a3so106761384lab.1 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:48:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=KEz/W2E/vFJWqcnPCb4hKKMDRP/ZscfGLp1gISxzOJc=; b=vNQa1qwJFzcCq06uGtaWizImMLV5N/WeINzb2BobDexEoC4T9RCSiEJgUi9/IKDoyD ZpNBeoB7vY04YwCWTFziGvzM3XtfQIs1zdE9qa7ymYsnuoEiu67aKrIBvukEwg9pvjEo 9d0UdzQ2kRr0SMvzrbtIhzoomAU0JK+jYpKZ9igv+jprSwzdkONelfBiUR2gpIRS8RV+ vuBwpz//l/iqS2vWioOlx2w4h6M8bM6Urse96IsTlhoznpfseELnkplMP0j+RuDKFdle hHBcFOOnT+yJ1NmEssBnxJVX9H/C0N5FKvkUnJtNZmcdl1V55SuKSFRw/Zv0lCqVQFJ8 4c+A== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.6.73 with SMTP id y9mr21886536lay.45.1440535715657; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.25.198.7 with HTTP; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:48:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <16218.1440512248@sandelman.ca> References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A659@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A857@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <16218.1440512248@sandelman.ca> Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:48:35 -0700 Message-ID: From: John Strassner To: Michael Richardson , John Strassner Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e014942209e3fb1051e28dba8 Archived-At: Cc: "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , "Jason Coleman \(colemaj\)" , Anima WG , "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 20:48:39 -0000 --089e014942209e3fb1051e28dba8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable HI Michael and Michael, While I agree that intent SHOULD be declarative, in order to facilitate adoption, I think that we SHOULD consider such translations; this will help interoperability with legacy systems. The Policy Engine, and its interface to the operator in draft-klyus-supa-proposition-02, contains a Policy Translation function to perform this function. This is also talked about in my IETF93 SUPA BoF presentation. best regards, John On Tue, Aug 25, 2015 at 7:17 AM, Michael Richardson wrote: > > Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote: > > My view: Let=E2=80=99s keep intent purely declarative. If you need = to support > > imperative concepts, do this through traditional methods, like CLI, > > netconf, etc. > > I would suggest that a reasonable ASA that might exist is a device > that can perform declarative Intent -> CLI translation :-) > > > Now, this is a bit of a purist view, and I=E2=80=99ve heard comment= s along > the > > lines: =E2=80=9Cwell, if we have this nice Intent concept, we want = to use it > > for everything=E2=80=9D. I=E2=80=99d rather keep it separate, but t= hat is just a > > personal opinion of course J (A strong one though! J > > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- > > > > --=20 regards, John --089e014942209e3fb1051e28dba8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
HI Michael and Michael,

While I agree that intent SHOULD be declarative, in order
to fac= ilitate adoption, I think that we SHOULD consider
such translatio= ns; this will help interoperability with
legacy systems. The Poli= cy Engine, and its interface to
the operator in draft-klyus-supa-= proposition-02, contains
a Policy Translation function to perform= this function.
This is also talked about in my IETF93 SUPA BoF
presentation.

best regards,
Joh= n

On Tue, Aug 25, 2015 at 7:17 AM, Michael Richardson <= ;mcr+ietf@sandel= man.ca> wrote:

Michael Behringer (mbehring) <mbeh= ring@cisco.com> wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > My view: Let=E2=80=99s keep intent purely declarative. I= f you need to support
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > imperative concepts, do this through traditional methods= , like CLI,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > netconf, etc.

I would suggest that a reasonable ASA that might exist is a device
that can perform declarative Intent -> CLI translation :-)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Now, this is a bit of a purist view, and I=E2=80=99ve he= ard comments along the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > lines: =E2=80=9Cwell, if we have this nice Intent concep= t, we want to use it
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > for everything=E2=80=9D. I=E2=80=99d rather keep it sepa= rate, but that is just a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > personal opinion of course J (A strong one though! J


--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@= sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
=C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-






--
regards,
John
--089e014942209e3fb1051e28dba8-- From nobody Tue Aug 25 13:57:26 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFC9B1ACDA1 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:57:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2-CHqfWwJxnA for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:57:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x233.google.com (mail-io0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C439A1A9172 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:57:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by iods203 with SMTP id s203so202694572iod.0 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:57:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=euTIgk6VESogL2d8zBl/HRwAiW5sqYWctLudfld78jQ=; b=rlDww4/tOnZNdG7OwhO/kwFNnrhM9s9CxUxUXwypOVaOSarOFcI8uVusKKRbLH6GAu BLXoox8+btmcl193gT4eWWJoZtBL1/lpsEp1LbvrwYef/qPqq1/9NYmvI7Bi15SK7gqR ZsQ5T7FVSu1pg+lplzEd3hhiqw7xFoFn39Wa0g73V23BUIvx+TTg2iQBVEBrUGBOxOWo uM7pREUD/Pvkfm2xwpfB8YXnLRd+5bNKuMJ5IKVtLAedfe6649teGpEyxDGog+4kroaF ZVquIIfK4qVtZjU48EgSSsk6+ALWkQbVLMzryODDX+5vr72qmr6k28ulH2YmFgNoyv/0 9XVg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.14.12 with SMTP id 12mr27224918ioo.177.1440536242254; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:57:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.79.107.196 with HTTP; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:57:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20764.1440513526@sandelman.ca> References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> <20764.1440513526@sandelman.ca> Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:57:22 -0700 Message-ID: From: John Strassner To: Michael Richardson , John Strassner Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113fa9b0019ac1051e28fbac Archived-At: Cc: Anima WG Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 20:57:25 -0000 --001a113fa9b0019ac1051e28fbac Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi Michael, good point, I like your formulation better. Now, when you say that the system performs a service discovery when collecting CPU and power utilization information, why is this discovering a service, instead of simply querying the appropriate resources? I actually like the idea of service discovery, but what wondering if I was missing something important. One other quick point; your example (which I very much like, btw) also helps illustrate that even the best info and/or data model can NOT perform the logic that you have outlined. This ties back into my earlier discussion about using models and ontologies (with some type of formal logic) to do the reasoning that you have outlined below. best regards, John On Tue, Aug 25, 2015 at 7:38 AM, Michael Richardson wrote: > > John Strassner wrote: > > I don't think it is that simple, unfortunately. Let's say that a NOC > > operator wants to issue something like the following: > > > "Any CPU in any VM whose utilization is > 70% should be > > load-balanced." > > I wouldn't write it that way, btw. > > I would write: > > "Arrange VM guest distribution so that (CPU) utilization is < 70%" > > (I might also write: > "Arrange VM guest distribution so that power utilization is > 70%" > or: "Arrange VM guest distribution so that (RAM) utilization is > 20% > on each host machine", or maybe some other energy saving rules) > > I would then expect an the system to realize: > 1) it needs a system to collect CPU and power utilization. > [this would turn into a service discovery] > 2) VM hosts need to report that information to supervisor. > 3) VM hosts with ILOMs need to delegate credentials to supervisor > that enable power control; specifically power-on control. > 4) that NAS needs to be setup to enable migration of VMs > 5) that it needs to turn on enough hosts, and configure them as VM > servers, such that: > a) there are enough hosts to keep CPU utilization < 70%. > b) there are few enough hosts powered so that electicity > isn't wasted > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > > -- regards, John --001a113fa9b0019ac1051e28fbac Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Michael,

good point, I li= ke your formulation better.

Now, when you say that= the system performs a
service discovery when collecting CPU and = power
utilization information, why is this discovering a
service, instead of simply querying the appropriate
resources? = I actually like the idea of service
discovery, but what wondering= if I was missing
something important.

O= ne other quick point; your example (which I very much
like, btw) = also helps illustrate that even the best info
and/or data model c= an NOT perform the logic that you
have outlined. This ties back i= nto my earlier discussion
about using models and ontologies (with= some type of
formal logic) to do the reasoning that you have
outlined below.


best regards= ,
John


<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Aug 25, 2015 at 7:38 AM, Michael Richards= on <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:

John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com= > wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I don't think it is that simple, unfortunately. Let&= #39;s say that a NOC
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > operator wants to issue something like the following:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > "Any CPU in any VM whose utilization is > 70% sh= ould be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > load-balanced."

I wouldn't write it that way, btw.

I would write:

=C2=A0 "Arrange VM guest distribution so that (CPU) utilization is <= ; 70%"

(I might also write:
=C2=A0 "Arrange VM guest distribution so that power utilization is >= ; 70%"
or: "Arrange VM guest distribution so that (RAM) utilization is > 2= 0%
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 on each host machine", or maybe some other energy saving= rules)

I would then expect an the system to realize:
=C2=A0 1) it needs a system to collect CPU and power utilization.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[this would turn into a service discovery]
=C2=A0 2) VM hosts need to report that information to supervisor.
=C2=A0 3) VM hosts with ILOMs need to delegate credentials to supervisor =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that enable power control; specifically power-on contro= l.
=C2=A0 4) that NAS needs to be setup to enable migration of VMs
=C2=A0 5) that it needs to turn on enough hosts, and configure them as VM =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0servers, such that:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a) there are enough hosts to keep CPU uti= lization < 70%.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0b) there are few enough hosts powered so = that electicity
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 isn't wasted

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@= sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
=C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-




_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima




--
regards,
John
--001a113fa9b0019ac1051e28fbac-- From nobody Tue Aug 25 13:58:12 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BD9B1A00A1 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:58:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mEmfptiYcMzo for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:58:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.86.77]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate 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Aug 2015 20:58:08 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com (xch-aln-001.cisco.com [173.36.7.11]) by rcdn-core-9.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t7PKw8wh009310 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 25 Aug 2015 20:58:08 GMT Received: from xch-aln-001.cisco.com (173.36.7.11) by XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com (173.36.7.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 15:58:07 -0500 Received: from xhc-aln-x15.cisco.com (173.36.12.89) by xch-aln-001.cisco.com (173.36.7.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 15:58:07 -0500 Received: from xmb-rcd-x05.cisco.com ([169.254.15.111]) by xhc-aln-x15.cisco.com ([173.36.12.89]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 15:58:07 -0500 From: "Alexander Clemm (alex)" To: John Strassner , Michael Richardson Thread-Topic: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents Thread-Index: AQHQ2e8zgdoVG8eikE2QmFgq8VtE2Z4UI+SAgAA4wACAACnXgIAAZj6AgAAWVgCAAAnlgIAIFIoAgABtR4D//60xsA== Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 20:58:06 +0000 Message-ID: References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A659@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF2304A857@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> <16218.1440512248@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.154.209.9] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DBC595ED2346914F9F81D17DD5C32B571DC899C6xmbrcdx05ciscoc_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , "Jason Coleman \(colemaj\)" , "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" , Anima WG Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: 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(ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 121CB1A92B3 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:58:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AobpFpbEzSkS for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:58:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x22e.google.com (mail-ig0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B676D1A8A3A for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:58:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by igui7 with SMTP id i7so21337397igu.0 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:58:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=4qa4knFpmpYW7Nx/AoZYBnNyX/2+2+v2iXK3mpK2thI=; b=f357/YCsj2rRz9c2+RUiHkTbtcA7k4htUnBpZMT0tg06qVr2hwQzopopKRSIxSaNrK kM1LGLEUi84pz6LhjlugpmlXgRl2Tvhj/QzLXAiUM7XERnOLqhUlNVMNt/4Abnb6YmyI Ur5xpZygDU5E00hpquu7qZxJK1QHQpJR89yFgXgtQXjJdO0g4LyWf0zXdzt7TPxMpkbo ZrXodLzOeKFlKnsJR6rAODZzOlwni45B6lvUJcOpe+JIyA2ktaBmF6vM74Vu1UJ0m2IE Uy3qxxU75keS+OJAYFzxA9qxTMCTM559Ark2X8B+hUyV+hv2IJ/atebc8o8pPKg3YU3j RByg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.78.98 with SMTP id a2mr6205264igx.87.1440536296020; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:58:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.79.107.196 with HTTP; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:58:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> <15605.1440512077@sandelman.ca> Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 13:58:15 -0700 Message-ID: From: John Strassner To: "Natale, Bob" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0122edba35e139051e28fe38 Archived-At: Cc: Michael Richardson , Anima WG Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 20:58:21 -0000 --089e0122edba35e139051e28fe38 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 So far, SUPA has NOT considered profiling - but I personally think it is an excellent idea. best regards, John On Tue, Aug 25, 2015 at 7:48 AM, Natale, Bob wrote: > > We have intentionally left Intent out of scope at this point. > > It could be that we can leave it partially out of scope if we can > leverage SUPA; likely we would write some kind of profile of SUPA in that > case. > > This strikes me as a very smart approach ... with the caveat that ANIMA > contributors would monitor SUPA work in the meantime to ensure that an > appropriate profile (i.e., one that meets the needs of ANIMA) can, in fact, > be constructed. > > (I am not certain that the notion of profiling is currently in the SUPA > work plan, but it seems like it should be ... or maybe John knows that it > will emerge naturally.) > > Avanti, > BobN > > -----Original Message----- > From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael > Richardson > Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 10:15 AM > To: John Strassner > Cc: Anima WG > Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents > > > John Strassner wrote: > > I've been involved in SUPA, but also in ANIMA; here is my > perspective: > > Thank you! > > > I **think** that in ANIMA, the assumption has been that intent > > should be declarative in nature. Please correct me if I am wrong. > > Yes, it must be declarative in nature, and but most importantly is that the > (signed) Intent will be interpreted in many places to form local logic. > > >> It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going to be designed > >> to cross-AS boundaries, but it seems like they could easily > >> do this. > > > > > Indeed, they are. In my policy work, there is the concept of a > > policy domain, which is any domain whose entities are > > governed by a common set of policies. So the concept is > > actually broader than just ASs. > > > > I think that ANIMA Intents are not intended to cross-AS. > At least: we don't intend that the Intents be validatable cross-AS. > This may mean that they can simpler, or it may have no impact at all. > > >> It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important for > >> SUPA to be able to implement policies, but that's an > >> operator convenience. They could equally well use other > >> (more expensive!) management networks. > > > > > Michael Behringer and I (and others, but I'm old so I have > > now forgotten who, sorry!) talked about this at IETF92. > > FOCALE (my autonomic architecture) chose the latter > > pointer to FOCALE? > > >> In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA... > >> I don't think anyone overstated the situation, but I think > >> that the message that ANIMA Intents != SUPA Intents > >> was too understated. > > > > > I have not seen ANIMA intent formally defined. I think it > > would be interesting to determine first, if ANIMA intent > > should use declarative logic or not (besides SUPA, > > ONF, OpenStack Congress, and to an extent, ODL GBP > > all use declarative logic), and second, if ANIMA intent > > is not going to use declarative logic, then why not? > > > > We have intentionally left Intent out of scope at this point. > It could be that we can leave it partially out of scope if we can leverage > SUPA; likely we would write some kind of profile of SUPA in that case. > > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= > IPv6 IoT consulting =- > > > > -- regards, John --089e0122edba35e139051e28fe38 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
So far, SUPA has NOT considered profiling - but I
personally think it is an excellent idea.

b= est regards,
John

On Tue, Aug 25, 2015 at 7:48 AM, Natale, Bob <RNATAL= E@mitre.org> wrote:
> We= have intentionally left Intent out of scope at this point.
> It could be that we can leave it partially out of scope if we can leve= rage SUPA; likely we would write some kind of profile of SUPA in that case.=

This strikes me as a very smart approach ... with the caveat that ANIMA con= tributors would monitor SUPA work in the meantime to ensure that an appropr= iate profile (i.e., one that meets the needs of ANIMA) can, in fact, be con= structed.

(I am not certain that the notion of profiling is currently in the SUPA wor= k plan, but it seems like it should be ... or maybe John knows that it will= emerge naturally.)

Avanti,
BobN

-----Original Message-----
From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces= @ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Richardson
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 10:15 AM
To: John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail= .com>
Cc: Anima WG <anima@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents


John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com= > wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I've been involved in SUPA, but also in ANIMA; here = is my perspective:

Thank you!

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I **think** that in ANIMA, the assumption has been that = intent
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > should be declarative in nature. Please correct me if I = am wrong.

Yes, it must be declarative in nature, and but most importantly is that the=
(signed) Intent will be interpreted in many places to form local logic.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> It isn't clear to me if SUPA Intents are going t= o be designed
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> to cross-AS boundaries, but it seems like they could= easily
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> do this.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <jcs>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Indeed, they are. In my policy work, there is the concep= t of a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > policy domain, which is any domain whose entities are =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > governed by a common set of policies. So the concept is<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > actually broader than just ASs.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > </jcs>

I think that ANIMA Intents are not intended to cross-AS.
At least: we don't intend that the Intents be validatable cross-AS.
This may mean that they can simpler, or it may have no impact at all.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> It seems like the ANIMA ACP is critically important = for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> SUPA to be able to implement policies, but that'= s an
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> operator convenience. They could equally well use ot= her
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> (more expensive!) management networks.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <jcs>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Michael Behringer and I (and others, but I'm old so = I have
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > now forgotten who, sorry!) talked about this at IETF92.<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > FOCALE (my autonomic architecture) chose the latter

pointer to FOCALE?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> In the recording, I heard various things about ANIMA= ...
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> I don't think anyone overstated the situation, b= ut I think
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> that the message that ANIMA Intents !=3D SUPA Intent= s
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> was too understated.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <jcs>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I have not seen ANIMA intent formally defined. I think i= t
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > would be interesting to determine first, if ANIMA intent=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > should use declarative logic or not (besides SUPA,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > ONF, OpenStack Congress, and to an extent, ODL GBP
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > all use declarative logic), and second, if ANIMA intent<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > is not going to use declarative logic, then why not?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > </jcs>

We have intentionally left Intent out of scope at this point.
It could be that we can leave it partially out of scope if we can leverage = SUPA; likely we would write some kind of profile of SUPA in that case.


--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@= sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works=C2=A0 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulti= ng =3D-






--
regards,
John
--089e0122edba35e139051e28fe38-- From nobody Tue Aug 25 14:03:56 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3794F1A9037 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 14:03:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MmS6rwz-vZIS for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 14:03:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x235.google.com (mail-io0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 455E81A8761 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 14:03:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by iodv127 with SMTP id v127so202590773iod.3 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 14:03:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=lXmACYb6wwkdcBH3Xh/6Uk8G3WfXIJxOM3if91HehKs=; b=LlJlXrwUVr0kf+dQZr4HhkRx7E/Hmw5D3rBULc4EkvyM1mfWMTzlciw+syu21l5ob4 gjnrmXIL0YmNXOKeitt6gQza2hCE0ZwHlicwm/WkqncHQokD/6iGnnYL8lxamDr8jTOO aFGErVRhdAXmiWggipN2h4ARWXu832F6tCPJTuixuUJ0mupliX+HZLhkvNxYSYaNtQqF JBsSp85mLUTHUneKxO+XCduFczQQWj6D1Ivr/yKMybnW1awTTPXuwxgVsh4dmfoeHMIC Cswt96Ctcs6yDY4ga9Y9W5wsZiVMlhSssY5bBemxldHm5GruNq7loiOwac8z259ueDDF W40A== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.169.201 with SMTP id f70mr26081876ioj.73.1440536628530; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 14:03:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.79.107.196 with HTTP; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 14:03:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <15659.1440520458@sandelman.ca> References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> <15605.1440512077@sandelman.ca> <15659.1440520458@sandelman.ca> Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 14:03:48 -0700 Message-ID: From: John Strassner To: Michael Richardson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114279b4079262051e291296 Archived-At: Cc: Anima WG Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 21:03:55 -0000 --001a114279b4079262051e291296 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi Michael, > In order for us to do this, we (ANIMA) need to have some well > described reference use cases. I don't think we have this in our > charter (just checked, no). I'm hesistant to suggest adding it at > this time, though. I agree. We should think about it and work informally, but not add it to our charter just yet. > I would suggest that we go for something like two very simple, > very concrete use cases, and two more "pie-in-the-sky" ideas. I very much agree! bet regards, John On Tue, Aug 25, 2015 at 9:34 AM, Michael Richardson wrote: > > Natale, Bob wrote: > >> We have intentionally left Intent out of scope at this point. > >> It could be that we can leave it partially out of scope if we can > >> leverage SUPA; likely we would write some kind of profile of SUPA in > >> that case. > > > This strikes me as a very smart approach ... with the caveat that > ANIMA > > contributors would monitor SUPA work in the meantime to ensure that > an > > appropriate profile (i.e., one that meets the needs of ANIMA) can, in > > fact, be constructed. > > In order for us to do this, we (ANIMA) need to have some well described > reference use cases. I don't think we have this in our charter (just > checked, no). I'm hesistant to suggest adding it at this time, though. > > I would suggest that we go for something like two very simple, very > concrete use cases, and two more "pie-in-the-sky" ideas. Our charter does > give us one example: > > "A simple example is assigning address prefixes to network segments in a > large and constantly changing network." > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > > -- regards, John --001a114279b4079262051e291296 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Michael,

> In order fo= r us to do this, we (ANIMA) need to have some well
>=C2=A0desc= ribed reference use cases.=C2=A0 I don't think we have this in our
>=C2=A0charter (just checked, no).=C2=A0 I'm hesistant to sugg= est adding it at
>=C2=A0this time, though.

<= /div>
<jcs>
I agree. We=C2=A0should think about it and = work informally, but not add
it to our charter just yet.
</jcs>

>=C2=A0I would suggest that we go for somet= hing like two very simple,
>=C2=A0very concrete use cases, and= two more "pie-in-the-sky" ideas.

<jc= s>
I very much agree!
</jcs>

bet regards,
John

On Tue, Aug 25, 2015 at 9:34 AM, Michael = Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:

Natale, Bob <RNATALE@mitre.org&= gt; wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> We have intentionally left Intent out of scope at th= is point.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> It could be that we can leave it partially out of sc= ope if we can
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> leverage SUPA; likely we would write some kind of pr= ofile of SUPA in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> that case.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > This strikes me as a very smart approach ... with the ca= veat that ANIMA
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > contributors would monitor SUPA work in the meantime to = ensure that an
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > appropriate profile (i.e., one that meets the needs of A= NIMA) can, in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > fact, be constructed.

In order for us to do this, we (ANIMA) need to have some well described
reference use cases.=C2=A0 I don't think we have this in our charter (j= ust
checked, no).=C2=A0 I'm hesistant to suggest adding it at this time, th= ough.

I would suggest that we go for something like two very simple, very
concrete use cases, and two more "pie-in-the-sky" ideas.=C2=A0 Ou= r charter does
give us one example:

=C2=A0 "A simple example is assigning address prefixes to network segm= ents in a
=C2=A0 large and constantly changing network."

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@= sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
=C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-




_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima




--
regards,
John
--001a114279b4079262051e291296-- From nobody Tue Aug 25 15:08:54 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DBAE1AC3CB for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 15:08:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oZ8zPD7GP3LW for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 15:08:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x230.google.com (mail-pa0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E1291AC3B7 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 15:08:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pacti10 with SMTP id ti10so64083055pac.0 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 15:08:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=TwrTlTBXKX9E60wm6Ut8wFnZxOZlx+6CYMp89rJFWUE=; b=Ja5oK4bEmoXXMgvFoqDvtMOkvnop0eMOj+W1C92Ocmpf1SvggRAw/bKYpWoUA5OuiU 79Q52J3wYGMsSdw2XcreoQcRHwUfctZt8BthztdvTZJZtn7edX6A0pXsM9C+w/5/Oz/u 0P+iPUvYqbBegCvDnZ6eb/ZkV8kDzFip1cOmXhwVI/SQxCQyxyroH9QSOo2L7fOoetS6 Jf8xmCVMHjdtdbwdRDnklXxZP84T6JVwJnk8aBhIPd+cA7HV/RHj9jKzKMyZJMxdBD/t LN6vc1QkviaXrgxS3M1qKwCmQ3tiiohd6fgCAbKjAbD5DPFpHELBQZr4vBYbNUf8yctQ 1ehA== X-Received: by 10.66.236.74 with SMTP id us10mr62257388pac.64.1440540530098; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 15:08:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:5e17:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:5e17:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ud2sm22316881pab.45.2015.08.25.15.08.47 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 25 Aug 2015 15:08:49 -0700 (PDT) To: John Strassner , Michael Richardson References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> <20764.1440513526@sandelman.ca> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <55DCE770.1050709@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 10:08:48 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: Anima WG Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 22:08:52 -0000 On 26/08/2015 08:57, John Strassner wrote: > Hi Michael, > > good point, I like your formulation better. > > Now, when you say that the system performs a > service discovery when collecting CPU and power > utilization information, why is this discovering a > service, instead of simply querying the appropriate > resources? I actually like the idea of service > discovery, but what wondering if I was missing > something important. As you know, when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. In Anima, we expect ASAs to discover each other in order to request synchronization data or to negotiate parameters. Of course, if you've already discovered the relevant peer, you would immediately query (i.e request synch). However, the discovery cache will eventually time out, so then you'd need to repeat discovery. Brian > > One other quick point; your example (which I very much > like, btw) also helps illustrate that even the best info > and/or data model can NOT perform the logic that you > have outlined. This ties back into my earlier discussion > about using models and ontologies (with some type of > formal logic) to do the reasoning that you have > outlined below. > > > best regards, > John > > > On Tue, Aug 25, 2015 at 7:38 AM, Michael Richardson > wrote: > >> >> John Strassner wrote: >> > I don't think it is that simple, unfortunately. Let's say that a NOC >> > operator wants to issue something like the following: >> >> > "Any CPU in any VM whose utilization is > 70% should be >> > load-balanced." >> >> I wouldn't write it that way, btw. >> >> I would write: >> >> "Arrange VM guest distribution so that (CPU) utilization is < 70%" >> >> (I might also write: >> "Arrange VM guest distribution so that power utilization is > 70%" >> or: "Arrange VM guest distribution so that (RAM) utilization is > 20% >> on each host machine", or maybe some other energy saving rules) >> >> I would then expect an the system to realize: >> 1) it needs a system to collect CPU and power utilization. >> [this would turn into a service discovery] >> 2) VM hosts need to report that information to supervisor. >> 3) VM hosts with ILOMs need to delegate credentials to supervisor >> that enable power control; specifically power-on control. >> 4) that NAS needs to be setup to enable migration of VMs >> 5) that it needs to turn on enough hosts, and configure them as VM >> servers, such that: >> a) there are enough hosts to keep CPU utilization < 70%. >> b) there are few enough hosts powered so that electicity >> isn't wasted >> >> -- >> Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works >> -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Anima mailing list >> Anima@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >> >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima > From nobody Tue Aug 25 20:51:50 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 808C81ACE85 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 20:51:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z0jW3RwAxL1N for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 20:51:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 363171ACE73 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 20:51:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BWT48644; Wed, 26 Aug 2015 03:51:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML410-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.41) by lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.241) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Wed, 26 Aug 2015 04:51:43 +0100 Received: from NKGEML512-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.33]) by nkgeml410-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.41]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Wed, 26 Aug 2015 11:51:38 +0800 From: Sheng Jiang To: Michael Richardson , Anima WG Thread-Topic: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents Thread-Index: AQHQ2e8z+JLi77ZKkEiupCRqkW7fz54TSfaAgAj8zoCAAAmNAIAAHXoAgAFCpRA= Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 03:51:37 +0000 Message-ID: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB25825@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> <15605.1440512077@sandelman.ca> <15659.1440520458@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <15659.1440520458@sandelman.ca> Accept-Language: en-GB, zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.99.197] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 03:51:49 -0000 PiAgICA+PiBXZSBoYXZlIGludGVudGlvbmFsbHkgbGVmdCBJbnRlbnQgb3V0IG9mIHNjb3BlIGF0 IHRoaXMgcG9pbnQuDQo+ICAgID4+IEl0IGNvdWxkIGJlIHRoYXQgd2UgY2FuIGxlYXZlIGl0IHBh cnRpYWxseSBvdXQgb2Ygc2NvcGUgaWYgd2UgY2FuDQo+ICAgID4+IGxldmVyYWdlIFNVUEE7IGxp a2VseSB3ZSB3b3VsZCB3cml0ZSBzb21lIGtpbmQgb2YgcHJvZmlsZSBvZiBTVVBBIGluDQo+ICAg ID4+IHRoYXQgY2FzZS4NCj4NCj4gICAgPiBUaGlzIHN0cmlrZXMgbWUgYXMgYSB2ZXJ5IHNtYXJ0 IGFwcHJvYWNoIC4uLiB3aXRoIHRoZSBjYXZlYXQgdGhhdCBBTklNQQ0KPiAgICA+IGNvbnRyaWJ1 dG9ycyB3b3VsZCBtb25pdG9yIFNVUEEgd29yayBpbiB0aGUgbWVhbnRpbWUgdG8gZW5zdXJlIHRo YXQNCj5hbg0KPiAgICA+IGFwcHJvcHJpYXRlIHByb2ZpbGUgKGkuZS4sIG9uZSB0aGF0IG1lZXRz IHRoZSBuZWVkcyBvZiBBTklNQSkgY2FuLCBpbg0KPiAgICA+IGZhY3QsIGJlIGNvbnN0cnVjdGVk Lg0KPg0KPkluIG9yZGVyIGZvciB1cyB0byBkbyB0aGlzLCB3ZSAoQU5JTUEpIG5lZWQgdG8gaGF2 ZSBzb21lIHdlbGwgZGVzY3JpYmVkDQo+cmVmZXJlbmNlIHVzZSBjYXNlcy4gIEkgZG9uJ3QgdGhp bmsgd2UgaGF2ZSB0aGlzIGluIG91ciBjaGFydGVyIChqdXN0DQo+Y2hlY2tlZCwgbm8pLiAgSSdt IGhlc2lzdGFudCB0byBzdWdnZXN0IGFkZGluZyBpdCBhdCB0aGlzIHRpbWUsIHRob3VnaC4NCg0K SSB3b3VsZCBzdWdnZXN0IHlvdSBhbmQgb3RoZXJzIHRvIHdvcmsgb24gc3VjaCB1c2UgY2FzZXMu IEl0IHdvdWxkIGJlIGluZGl2aWR1YWwgc3VibWlzc2lvbiBhbmQgb3V0IG9mIHRoZSBjdXJyZW50 IGNoYXJ0ZXIuIEJ1dCBpZiB0aGUgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiB3ZW50IHdlbGwsIGl0IHdvdWxkIGdpdmUg dXMgYSBnb29kIGZvdW5kYXRpb24gdG8gdGFrZSBpdCBpbnRvIG5leHQgY2hhcnRlci4NCg0KUmVn YXJkcywNCg0KU2hlbmcNCg== From nobody Wed Aug 26 11:43:25 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38BA51A8BC1 for ; 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Wed, 26 Aug 2015 14:43:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Anima WG In-Reply-To: References: <55C4D6C1.5040504@cisco.com> <27284.1439927422@sandelman.ca> <20764.1440513526@sandelman.ca> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 24.4.2 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Anima] Not the Intents we were looking for: SUPA Intents X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 18:43:24 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain John Strassner wrote: > good point, I like your formulation better. > Now, when you say that the system performs a > service discovery when collecting CPU and power > utilization information, why is this discovering a > service, instead of simply querying the appropriate > resources? I actually like the idea of service > discovery, but what wondering if I was missing > something important. What I'm saying is occuring is that something would have to realize that CPU/power utilizations needs to be collected. That requires a system to do the collection (either something to receive data, or something to poll for it). It could be driven by a VM host ("dom0") realizing (upon interpretation of the Intent) that in it's inventory of pre-built VMs, it has a data collection VM. Or it might be that the dom0 hosts, would do a ANIMA service discovery for a place to send data, and that would cause such a service to be instantiated. > One other quick point; your example (which I very much > like, btw) also helps illustrate that even the best info > and/or data model can NOT perform the logic that you > have outlined. This ties back into my earlier discussion > about using models and ontologies (with some type of > formal logic) to do the reasoning that you have > outlined below. Agreed. The data-model just tells us what can be tweaked, but not the why. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBVd4IyICLcPvd0N1lAQKCbwgAoY+WV2MS84GQRYy3w9RIH6CrbrCZ528o nCOGIKOo7DhorZ2d9rjmSh9pE48HZjfFx8zoxTdbpIedmAm213byyhNCvr/IaCG1 w/o4qmXGw26Wh/yHliZG7tSCW2ena+duMPQEuqv7CDy8JtuAjBhbuLyNyn95i8ld rmg8TBtf7/N0Br+atLWAguWrNFxDsCxcvX2Yra+ks0z8O1eKYcuTEwxyNaDvavnB +ghCStuzUS7fniRqW+LUC/117owVSQGvKmAX0ByxOJaOViYYmNE4Ic04ze5sgn9p F5v+ZBDG62dHKfmv6yjnI2uq8aUiBZjIK5RYjPKR2+raOa+oTwJAtg== =j28M -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Aug 26 17:57:22 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75C1D1A88EA; Wed, 26 Aug 2015 17:57:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NFn5fG_vWfad; Wed, 26 Aug 2015 17:57:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 531061B34CC; Wed, 26 Aug 2015 17:57:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.4.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20150827005719.14999.38826.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 17:57:19 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: anima@ietf.org Subject: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-ietf-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra-00.txt X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 00:57:21 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach Working Group of the IETF. Title : Bootstrapping Key Infrastructures Authors : Max Pritikin Michael C. Richardson Michael H. Behringer Steinthor Bjarnason Filename : draft-ietf-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra-00.txt Pages : 27 Date : 2015-08-26 Abstract: This document specifies automated bootstrapping of an key infrastructure using vendor installed IEEE 802.1AR manufacturing installed certificates, in combination with a vendor based service on the Internet. Before being authenticated, a new device has only link-local connectivity, and does not require a routable address. When a vendor provides an Internet based service, devices can be forced to join only specific domains but in limited/disconnected networks or legacy environments we describe a variety of options that allow bootstrapping to proceed. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Aug 31 13:27:38 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6A541B580F for ; Mon, 31 Aug 2015 13:27:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cMyto36FIu91 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 2015 13:27:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpgre-esg-01.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 452E61B4D2F for ; Mon, 31 Aug 2015 13:27:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.122]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 730931CBB9607; Mon, 31 Aug 2015 20:27:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from FR711WXCHHUB01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711wxchhub01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.111]) by fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id t7VKRVF9030701 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 31 Aug 2015 22:27:31 +0200 Received: from FR712WXCHMBA12.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.8.211]) by FR711WXCHHUB01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.111]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Mon, 31 Aug 2015 22:27:31 +0200 From: "PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE)" To: Brian E Carpenter Thread-Topic: [Anima] Request for review of GRASP requirements Thread-Index: AQHQ2GIwnAB0qiYuTkKiZQnVbebUZZ4f6EbA Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 20:27:31 +0000 Message-ID: References: <55D0F280.2050403@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <55D0F280.2050403@gmail.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.38] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Anima WG Subject: Re: [Anima] Request for review of GRASP requirements X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 20:27:36 -0000 Hi Brian and all, Having in mind your request concerning the draft on coordination, I set mys= elf at this task (when back from summer break unfortunately for the time-li= ne), willing to make sure the scenarios of coordination and of autonomic ma= nagement we had in mind, would be supported by GDNP. Actually, I'm stumbling over some prior elements which concern more some of= the hypothesis and the scope of the protocol. A first contextual question: Does this protocol use the ACP to convey its m= essages ? A second one: What are the actors/roles using GDNP? Check list below 1. ASA for sure (I've read it), 2. "Autonomic devices" are written as well, (are those the autonomic no= des of the model, or could that be something else)? 3. network management entities of the system (not really mentioned in t= he draft, but as you intend to convey technical objectives to the ASA, I wo= uld say this pertain to the management of ASA) (A bit of philosophy here: t= hough autonomics intend to simplify the management it brings us in a shift = in paradigm from managing equipments to managing functions that would in th= eir turn manage the equipments) 4. Any utility entity (that would achieve coordination e.g. or would th= is be considered as a specific ASA)? This question is important as I would expect the kind of messages sent by e= ntities depend on their role (in fact the requirements as well as far as th= is email is concerned). An illustration of that point is: I would not expect an ASA to set technica= l objectives to another ASA (it could just intend to mislead the other ASA = to win the competition). We should also be careful of the roles in the inter ASA exchanges. I would = easily imagine ASA sharing a similar objective to organize themselves into = an autonomic function, then their negotiation would be quite different from= the negotiation between competing ASAs. Hence, is GDNP meant to achieve the communication between all these roles? These early questionings expressed, I can then venture in some requirements= , but the previous points do really condition these requirements, that is w= hy I put them in short, let me know which you think in and out of scope, be= fore I turn those in more appropriate text. R1. If we consider a management message to ASA as technical objective, we s= hould also consider the possibility to send a scope of work. (Meaning which= equipments need to be managed by the ASA, this seems unneeded for networks= composed of AN only, but when mixing with legacy equipments, that becomes = mandatory). R2. Allow for the ASA running its MAPE loop under the supervision of a coor= dination entity; fixing the rhythm, the right to run or not, the extent to = which the MAPE loop is completed. R3. A description of the ASA detailing which are the parameters modified, a= nd which are the metrics monitored. R4. Messages between ASA to share information (like monitored metrics, infe= rred trends or knowledge) (is it covered by req 15?). R5. Messages between ASA after discovery in order to organize themselves as= Autonomic functions (partially covered by req 7?). R6. Management message to install a specific ASA on a designated host (AN a= priori, but in non AN only networks that may be not that simple). Which would conclude here my email. BR and thanks for all, Pierre > -----Message d'origine----- > De : Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Brian E Carpente= r > Envoy=E9 : dimanche 16 ao=FBt 2015 22:29 > =C0 : Anima WG > Objet : [Anima] Request for review of GRASP requirements > > WG, > > Please review the requirements section of draft-ietf-anima-grasp-00: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-grasp-00#section-2 > The requirements are numbered 1..25. If you have comments, please mention= the > requirement number, or propose a completely new requirement. > > If we don't get comments by the end of August, the design team will assum= e > that the WG is happy with the existing set of requirements. > > Regards > Brian > > _______________________________________________ > Anima mailing list > Anima@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima From nobody Mon Aug 31 15:45:28 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67AEA1B4504 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 2015 15:45:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ysq25n8EUpRd for ; Mon, 31 Aug 2015 15:45:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x22d.google.com (mail-pa0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 916381B4989 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 2015 15:45:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pacdd16 with SMTP id dd16so153029598pac.2 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 2015 15:45:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=F+FwyFScu+Gv2YQ52lvRu5hwakOgYglg0lvJOIotjPs=; b=BbUEb6GJEkXnIXdT0XdKnv0/girtq4C4Hx84C5r5r1f3GLW5//IHC8K9xmuW5u63aM l2dMppVryTS2l/Hfuv/aOkJVByqviyphIdfiPvujNWSPmWvjuy4dsLmrmOb03KlP5KML IiD8j77FI9zj/7Xc/UgS8gXx+fubgCNV9S5fP3IUzyMnBDn/1cPPx8N4hrEvt1MzSAO0 ZS2HzB2sO2WDG4ZVHdq65MPfLtDpl2zpsIO/5GupHzbTMXgGvQu5Jkjxq73LLsgz3cP3 M4SaGhKEz7UGdhToWA2gulmtZ4iVLcRPI4A+ukiG1NbmuZXyMPeGBx/Bdv+ZN9Tm/y4D wsSA== X-Received: by 10.66.147.68 with SMTP id ti4mr41062272pab.90.1441061123100; Mon, 31 Aug 2015 15:45:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:4f6b:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:4f6b:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ri9sm15721808pbc.4.2015.08.31.15.45.20 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 31 Aug 2015 15:45:21 -0700 (PDT) To: "PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE)" References: <55D0F280.2050403@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <55E4D901.90808@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 10:45:21 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: Anima WG Subject: Re: [Anima] Request for review of GRASP requirements X-BeenThere: anima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 22:45:26 -0000 Pierre, Thanks for your interesting questions. Speaking for myself alone: On 01/09/2015 08:27, PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) wrote: > Hi Brian and all, >=20 > Having in mind your request concerning the draft on coordination, I set= myself at this task (when back from summer break unfortunately for the t= ime-line), willing to make sure the scenarios of coordination and of auto= nomic management we had in mind, would be supported by GDNP. >=20 > Actually, I'm stumbling over some prior elements which concern more som= e of the hypothesis and the scope of the protocol. > A first contextual question: Does this protocol use the ACP to convey i= ts messages ? The protocol is intended to work in any secure context, but the normal se= cure context is indeed the ACP. However, we don't want to exclude using it between sep= arate domains in special cases (for example, where two ISPs have agreed to use an auton= omic method for a particular parameter). In such a case GRASP could run over TLS. (We= haven't mentioned using IPsec, but I can't see any reason why that should be forb= idden.) > A second one: What are the actors/roles using GDNP? Check list below > 1. ASA for sure (I've read it), > 2. "Autonomic devices" are written as well, (are those the autonomi= c nodes of the model, or could that be something else)? Hmm. We have a sort of implicit definition: Every autonomic device will be pre-loaded with various functions and ASAs and will be aware of its own capabilities, typically decided by the hardware, firmware or pre-installed software. This suggests to me that we intend to refer to a device that contains at least one ASA. I think we need to be precise about that. > 3. network management entities of the system (not really mentioned = in the draft, but as you intend to convey technical objectives to the ASA= , I would say this pertain to the management of ASA) (A bit of philosophy= here: though autonomics intend to simplify the management it brings us i= n a shift in paradigm from managing equipments to managing functions that= would in their turn manage the equipments) We have to accept co-existence with all traditional network management en= tities. I could imagine an ASA function being added to a traditional network mana= gement entitity, but we aren't trying to compete with NETCONF or SNMP for exampl= e. If an entity manages a number of elements via NETCONF, and that entity ha= s an ASA as its autonomic interface, we would integrate the two worlds. Certainly a goal is to move to intent-based management as much as possibl= e, which is indeed a matter of managing functions IMHO. > 4. Any utility entity (that would achieve coordination e.g. or woul= d this be considered as a specific ASA)? I think we would model that as an ASA. >=20 > This question is important as I would expect the kind of messages sent = by entities depend on their role (in fact the requirements as well as far= as this email is concerned). Indeed, which is why I believe that we need considerable flexibility and extensibility. > An illustration of that point is: I would not expect an ASA to set tech= nical objectives to another ASA (it could just intend to mislead the othe= r ASA to win the competition). Hang on - if there are several ASAs managing the same resource, they will= negotiate with each other. If it's a finite resource they will be negotiating withi= n a zero-sum game. Do we really need to worry about rogue ASAs? We are within= a single adminiistrative domain (except for the special inter-ISP case ment= ioned above). >=20 > We should also be careful of the roles in the inter ASA exchanges. I wo= uld easily imagine ASA sharing a similar objective to organize themselves= into an autonomic function, then their negotiation would be quite differ= ent from the negotiation between competing ASAs. Yes, each objective may have different characteristics. >=20 > Hence, is GDNP meant to achieve the communication between all these rol= es? Yes, which is exactly why the protocol doesn't describe objectives or rol= es. >=20 > These early questionings expressed, I can then venture in some requirem= ents, but the previous points do really condition these requirements, tha= t is why I put them in short, let me know which you think in and out of s= cope, before I turn those in more appropriate text. >=20 > R1. If we consider a management message to ASA as technical objective, = we should also consider the possibility to send a scope of work. (Meaning= which equipments need to be managed by the ASA, this seems unneeded for = networks composed of AN only, but when mixing with legacy equipments, tha= t becomes mandatory). That sounds like Intent to me. It's true that in a partly autonomic netwo= rk, Intent will need to express what is excluded from autonomy. > R2. Allow for the ASA running its MAPE loop under the supervision of a = coordination entity; fixing the rhythm, the right to run or not, the exte= nt to which the MAPE loop is completed. Yes, Laurent has brought up the question of coordination. The starting co= nditions can be part of Intent. I can imagine that we might have to add some coord= ination functions when we understand aspect this better. > R3. A description of the ASA detailing which are the parameters modifie= d, and which are the metrics monitored. That is entirely specific to an ASA - how does it affect the protocol? > R4. Messages between ASA to share information (like monitored metrics, = inferred trends or knowledge) (is it covered by req 15?). I believe so. Since the content part of a synchronization objective is co= mpletely unspecified by the protocol, it can contain this information. > R5. Messages between ASA after discovery in order to organize themselve= s as Autonomic functions (partially covered by req 7?). I don't quite understand this one. The function is intrinsic to the ASA. > R6. Management message to install a specific ASA on a designated host (= AN a priori, but in non AN only networks that may be not that simple). Hmm. I've been assuming that ASAs would be pre-installed; whether they ac= tivate or not is another question. Again, I've been assuming that they will simply star= t discovery after power-on. If there's no discovery response, they can go back to sle= ep. Brian >=20 > Which would conclude here my email. >=20 > BR and thanks for all, >=20 > Pierre >=20 >> -----Message d'origine----- >> De : Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Brian E Carpe= nter >> Envoy=C3=A9 : dimanche 16 ao=C3=BBt 2015 22:29 >> =C3=80 : Anima WG >> Objet : [Anima] Request for review of GRASP requirements >> >> WG, >> >> Please review the requirements section of draft-ietf-anima-grasp-00: >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-grasp-00#section-2 >> The requirements are numbered 1..25. If you have comments, please ment= ion the >> requirement number, or propose a completely new requirement. >> >> If we don't get comments by the end of August, the design team will as= sume >> that the WG is happy with the existing set of requirements. >> >> Regards >> Brian >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Anima mailing list >> Anima@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima >=20