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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
 This draft is a work item of the Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach Working Group of the IETF.

        Title           : An Autonomic Control Plane
        Authors         : Michael H. Behringer
                          Steinthor Bjarnason
                          Balaji BL
                          Toerless Eckert
	Filename        : draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-01.txt
	Pages           : 22
	Date            : 2015-10-06

Abstract:
   Autonomic functions need a control plane to communicate, which
   depends on some addressing and routing.  This Autonomic Control Plane
   should ideally be self-managing, and as independent as possible of
   configuration.  This document defines an "Autonomic Control Plane",
   with the primary use as a control plane for autonomic functions.  It
   also serves as a "virtual out of band channel" for OAM communications
   over a network that is not configured, or mis-configured.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-01

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-01


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: anima <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-01.txt
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Subject: [Anima] FW: I-D Action: draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-01.txt
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ANIMA WG,=20

The below draft went through quite a few changes, in line with the discussi=
ons at the last IETF.=20

Following the discussions and Sheng's suggestions, I have re-organised the =
content across the reference model, addressing and ACP drafts a bit. The re=
ference draft will cover the overall flow, "the life of an autonomic device=
". Previously the ACP draft held a lot of that info. Now the ACP draft just=
 explains how you set up  the ACP, and nothing else. That section (5) had q=
uite some changes, so I recommend to re-read it. In brief: we now start fro=
m the adjacency table, where we see all autonomic neighbors. From that we l=
et Intent select "candidate neighbors", or a default policy is "from the sa=
me domain". Then, we establish the ACP with those candidates.=20

Addressing: This material has been going back and forth a few times. At the=
 last IETF we agreed that the reference model is finally NOT the right plac=
e for the full addressing discussion. So, the split is now: Reference does =
the overall goals, requirements; ACP draft just explains the prefix creatio=
n, which is something I think we can agree on pretty quickly, as it's fairl=
y high level. The sub-address schemes now go back into the addressing doc, =
and Sheng has agreed that while this is part of the ACP milestone, we can h=
ave that particular point in a separate draft. I expect some lively discuss=
ions about the sub-address schemes, which is why I think it makes sense to =
keep it separate.=20

I have taken the NMS systems out of the ACP creation section. In the end, N=
MS systems will (hopefully) be autonomic as well, and can join the ACP as d=
escribed in section 5. So I created a new section 6 on "workarounds" with n=
on-autonomic things. I think it's cleaner this way.=20

Sections 7 and 8 are new. One is for the actual protocol to negotiate the A=
CP, one is for the channel types we want to support, with a suggestion for =
the first one (IPsec / GRE), which I believe we have agreement on.=20

As agreed in the last ANIMA session, the data-plane ACP is out of scope, an=
d we define only a virtually separate ACP, since it's more or less the same=
 effort, but has significant advantages. This model went into an appendix, =
and will be removed at the next version (as discussed).=20

We were asked to provide some reasoning on the choice of routing protocol, =
that is now in an appendix as well.=20

Currently working on the new version of the reference model and the address=
ing draft. May I remind the folks that have volunteered to do a section of =
the reference model, to please get going ;-)=20

Undoubtedly, there will be many comments / questions, and undoubtedly there=
 will be more work on this draft. But I hope that the structure is now star=
ting to stabilise. Comments?=20

Michael


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet-
> drafts@ietf.org
> Sent: 06 October 2015 18:04
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Cc: anima@ietf.org
> Subject: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-01.=
txt
>=20
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct=
ories.
>  This draft is a work item of the Autonomic Networking Integrated Model a=
nd
> Approach Working Group of the IETF.
>=20
>         Title           : An Autonomic Control Plane
>         Authors         : Michael H. Behringer
>                           Steinthor Bjarnason
>                           Balaji BL
>                           Toerless Eckert
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-01.txt
> 	Pages           : 22
> 	Date            : 2015-10-06
>=20
> Abstract:
>    Autonomic functions need a control plane to communicate, which
>    depends on some addressing and routing.  This Autonomic Control Plane
>    should ideally be self-managing, and as independent as possible of
>    configuration.  This document defines an "Autonomic Control Plane",
>    with the primary use as a control plane for autonomic functions.  It
>    also serves as a "virtual out of band channel" for OAM communications
>    over a network that is not configured, or mis-configured.
>=20
>=20
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane=
/
>=20
> There's also a htmlized version available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-01
>=20
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-
> plane-01
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss=
ion
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


From nobody Tue Oct  6 12:11:58 2015
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From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
To: Anima WG <anima@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-01.txt
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This looks like good progress to me. One comment:

>    o  It determines, following a policy, a candidate peer list.  This is
>       the list of nodes to which it should establish an autonomic
>       control plane.  Default policy is: To all adjacent nodes in the
>       same domain.  Intent can override this default policy.

I see a bootstrap issue there: how does the node acquire Intent securely
before forming its ACP adjacencies?

The answer is presumably to run GRASP in non-ACP mode, i.e. establishing
GRASP sessions over TLS. That seems compatible with the new section 7.
I don't currently see any basic issue with the assumption in section 7
that GRASP can be used; the definition of a GRASP objective is intentionally
very flexible. However, all nodes will need to support TLS, which means
that the security bootstrap has to result in the necessary certificates
being available.

    Brian


From nobody Tue Oct  6 12:30:47 2015
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From: "Max Pritikin (pritikin)" <pritikin@cisco.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-01.txt
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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: "Max Pritikin (pritikin)" <pritikin@cisco.com>, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-01.txt
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To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>, "Max Pritikin (pritikin)" <pritikin@cisco.com>
References: <20151006160408.1826.18459.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <56141CE7.2080603@gmail.com> <ECE8C79A-F01F-483E-886E-6389FB381C90@cisco.com> <3e5e0b1a654f47e49cf6c91a3605f5ae@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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On 07/10/2015 08:55, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Max Pritikin
>> (pritikin)
>> Sent: 06 October 2015 21:31
>> To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
>> Cc: Anima WG <anima@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-pl=
ane-
>> 01.txt
>>
>>
>>> On Oct 6, 2015, at 1:11 PM, Brian E Carpenter
>> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> This looks like good progress to me. One comment:
>>>
>>>>   o  It determines, following a policy, a candidate peer list.  This=
 is
>>>>      the list of nodes to which it should establish an autonomic
>>>>      control plane.  Default policy is: To all adjacent nodes in the=

>>>>      same domain.  Intent can override this default policy.
>>>
>>> I see a bootstrap issue there: how does the node acquire Intent
>>> securely before forming its ACP adjacencies?
>>
>> One could include some intent distribution during bootstrapping but is=
 that
>> even necessary? I don=E2=80=99t see the problem with the device using =
the above
>> default policy (hypothetically it=E2=80=99ll fail to communicate with =
some nodes) until
>> the true policy is obtained?
>=20
> I second Max here. At time of first bootstrap, you follow default polic=
ies. Let's not make life too complicated ;-)=20

I have no problem with that, so I suggest removing the ambiguity
by adding a note that this override can only take place after
an initial ACP has been formed.

    Brian

> =20
> Michael
>=20
>>> The answer is presumably to run GRASP in non-ACP mode, i.e.
>>> establishing GRASP sessions over TLS.
>>
>> This just moves the problem to bootstrapping GRASP sessions over TLS.
>>
>> - max
>>
>>> That seems compatible with the new section 7.
>>> I don't currently see any basic issue with the assumption in section =
7
>>> that GRASP can be used; the definition of a GRASP objective is
>>> intentionally very flexible. However, all nodes will need to support
>>> TLS, which means that the security bootstrap has to result in the
>>> necessary certificates being available.
>>>
>>>    Brian
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Anima mailing list
>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, "Max Pritikin (pritikin)" <pritikin@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane-01.txt
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References: <20151006160408.1826.18459.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <56141CE7.2080603@gmail.com> <ECE8C79A-F01F-483E-886E-6389FB381C90@cisco.com> <3e5e0b1a654f47e49cf6c91a3605f5ae@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <56147DDB.8030608@gmail.com>
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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: Anima WG <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Adjacency table
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ANIMA WG,



In the latest version of the ACP draft, I was trying to be clearer on what =
triggers ACP creation. While thinking about this I came to the conclusion t=
hat practically all operations in ANIMA today are really focused around an =
adjacency table, which I now list in section 5.1 (precondition).



Also in the bootstrap design team call just now, same thing: What triggers =
a bootstrap action? And again, it's really anchored around the adjacency ta=
ble.



Since this seems a pretty important concept (although quite simple, really)=
, I wanted to illustrate how this all fits together in my mind:

[cid:image003.jpg@01D10129.4036B8B0]



There are processes feeding the adjacency table; there are processes trigge=
red by it. Discovery feeds the table. But there are also potential other in=
put vectors. Depending on the state of the device, and what it sees in the =
table, different things happen. And there we go into the bootstrap draft, t=
he ACP draft, or potentially others.



I guess the reference model should explain this table, because it really li=
nks all the documents together, in a way. v



Does this make sense to everyone? Any things that don't seem right? Thought=
s?



Michael



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<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt">ANIMA WG,
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt">In the latest version of the ACP draft, I was trying to b=
e clearer on what triggers ACP creation. While thinking about this I came t=
o the conclusion that practically all operations
 in ANIMA today are really focused around an adjacency table, which I now l=
ist in section 5.1 (precondition).
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt">Also in the bootstrap design team call just now, same thi=
ng: What triggers a bootstrap action? And again, it&#8217;s really anchored=
 around the adjacency table.
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt">Since this seems a pretty important concept (although qui=
te simple, really), I wanted to illustrate how this all fits together in my=
 mind:
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><img width=3D"814" height=3D"4=
35" id=3D"Picture_x0020_1" src=3D"cid:image003.jpg@01D10129.4036B8B0"></spa=
n><o:p></o:p></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt">There are processes feeding the adjacency table; there ar=
e processes triggered by it. Discovery feeds the table. But there are also =
potential other input vectors. Depending
 on the state of the device, and what it sees in the table, different thing=
s happen. And there we go into the bootstrap draft, the ACP draft, or poten=
tially others.
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt">I guess the reference model should explain this table, be=
cause it really links all the documents together, in a way. v<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt">Does this make sense to everyone? Any things that don&#82=
17;t seem right? Thoughts?
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt">Michael<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></font></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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--_004_1245fe092b154549a46b9a4f4b1d0c7aXCHRTP006ciscocom_--


From nobody Wed Oct  7 12:18:00 2015
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To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>, Anima WG <anima@ietf.org>
References: <1245fe092b154549a46b9a4f4b1d0c7a@XCH-RTP-006.cisco.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
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Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 08:17:49 +1300
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Adjacency table
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On 08/10/2015 04:54, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
> ANIMA WG,
>=20
> In the latest version of the ACP draft, I was trying to be clearer on w=
hat triggers ACP creation. While thinking about this I
> came to the conclusion that practically all operations in ANIMA today a=
re really focused around an adjacency table, which I now
> list in section 5.1 (precondition).
>=20
> Also in the bootstrap design team call just now, same thing: What trigg=
ers a bootstrap action? And again, it=E2=80=99s really anchored
> around the adjacency table.

The adjacency table is also essential for correctly dealing with link-loc=
al
multicast, I think. The details are a bit messy to explain in a few words=
, but
in essence GRASP and the ACP have to ensure that some link-local multicas=
ts are
*selectively* relayed between physical interfaces, and the information fo=
r doing
that is already present in Michael's table.

> Since this seems a pretty important concept (although quite simple, rea=
lly), I wanted to illustrate how this all fits together
> in my mind:
>=20
> There are processes feeding the adjacency table; there are processes tr=
iggered by it. Discovery feeds the table. But there are
> also potential other input vectors. Depending on the state of the devic=
e, and what it sees in the table, different things
> happen. And there we go into the bootstrap draft, the ACP draft, or pot=
entially others.
>=20
> I guess the reference model should explain this table, because it reall=
y links all the documents together, in a way. v
>=20
> Does this make sense to everyone? Any things that don=E2=80=99t seem ri=
ght? Thoughts?

Can you clarify what you mean by discovery? I think this is distinct from=
 GRASP
discovery, which is oriented towards individual objectives, so the GRASP =
protocol
engine will need a discovery cache, but that's distinct from the adjacenc=
y table.

    Brian


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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, Anima WG <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Adjacency table
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To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>, Anima WG <anima@ietf.org>
References: <1245fe092b154549a46b9a4f4b1d0c7a@XCH-RTP-006.cisco.com> <56156FDD.5050805@gmail.com> <2ddaa01da0874c2a8e5c5bd981f91794@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
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Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 08:41:26 +1300
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Adjacency table
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Below...

On 08/10/2015 20:45, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]
>> Sent: 07 October 2015 21:18
>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com>; Anima WG
>> <anima@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Anima] Adjacency table
>>
>> On 08/10/2015 04:54, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>>> ANIMA WG,
>>>
>>> In the latest version of the ACP draft, I was trying to be clearer on=

>>> what triggers ACP creation. While thinking about this I came to the
>>> conclusion that practically all operations in ANIMA today are really =
focused
>> around an adjacency table, which I now list in section 5.1 (preconditi=
on).
>>>
>>> Also in the bootstrap design team call just now, same thing: What
>>> triggers a bootstrap action? And again, it=E2=80=99s really anchored =
around the
>> adjacency table.
>>
>> The adjacency table is also essential for correctly dealing with link-=
local
>> multicast, I think. The details are a bit messy to explain in a few wo=
rds, but in
>> essence GRASP and the ACP have to ensure that some link-local multicas=
ts
>> are
>> *selectively* relayed between physical interfaces, and the information=
 for
>> doing that is already present in Michael's table.
>=20
> I think in Yokohama we should spend some time to discuss the multicast =
aspects. I sort of see where we're going, but wouldn't bet a lot that I'd=
 be able to articulate it properly.=20
> =20
>>> Since this seems a pretty important concept (although quite simple,
>>> really), I wanted to illustrate how this all fits together in my mind=
:
>>>
>>> There are processes feeding the adjacency table; there are processes
>>> triggered by it. Discovery feeds the table. But there are also
>>> potential other input vectors. Depending on the state of the device, =
and
>> what it sees in the table, different things happen. And there we go in=
to the
>> bootstrap draft, the ACP draft, or potentially others.
>>>
>>> I guess the reference model should explain this table, because it
>>> really links all the documents together, in a way. v
>>>
>>> Does this make sense to everyone? Any things that don=E2=80=99t seem =
right?
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> Can you clarify what you mean by discovery? I think this is distinct f=
rom
>> GRASP discovery, which is oriented towards individual objectives, so t=
he
>> GRASP protocol engine will need a discovery cache, but that's distinct=
 from
>> the adjacency table.
>=20
> Well, there is a reason this is a bit vague: I'm not really sure, and w=
e need to sit down and discuss this. I think GRASP *could* be the basic d=
iscovery mechanism. But other proposals have been made (last IKE from mcr=
).=20
>=20
> Can you expand on why you think if we used GRASP for this purpose, this=
 couldn't feed the adjacency table directly?

No, because in fact I think it could; I had been thinking that the ACP
was operating as a lower layer, but there's no reason it couldn't use
the GRASP upper layer for this. Just some API details to be fixed.

So, at that stage GRASP would be running in no-ACP mode, using sockets di=
rectly.
We could postulate a generic GRASP objective simply called "grasp" which =
all GRASP
instances must support. Then each node would send a link-local multicast =
on each
interface with a GRASP discovery message looking for the "grasp" objectiv=
e.
Each link-local response message would indicate a GRASP neighbor. I think=

those are the addresses needed to populate the adjacency table.

In terms of the CBOR version of GRASP that will be posted shortly, the di=
scovery
message would look like this in CBOR diagnostic format:
 [1, 3141593, ["grasp", 0]]
and each response would be something like:
 [2, 3141593, h'fd0000000000000128ccdc4c97036781']

    Brian



From nobody Thu Oct  8 12:52:01 2015
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Subject: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-ietf-anima-grasp-01.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
 This draft is a work item of the Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach Working Group of the IETF.

        Title           : A Generic Autonomic Signaling Protocol (GRASP)
        Authors         : Carsten Bormann
                          Brian Carpenter
                          Bing Liu
	Filename        : draft-ietf-anima-grasp-01.txt
	Pages           : 51
	Date            : 2015-10-08

Abstract:
   This document establishes requirements for a signaling protocol that
   enables autonomic devices and autonomic service agents to dynamically
   discover peers, to synchronize state with them, and to negotiate
   parameter settings mutually with them.  The document then defines a
   general protocol for discovery, synchronization and negotiation,
   while the technical objectives for specific scenarios are to be
   described in separate documents.  An Appendix briefly discusses
   existing protocols with comparable features.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-anima-grasp/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-grasp-01

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-anima-grasp-01


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Thu Oct  8 12:58:47 2015
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To: anima@ietf.org
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
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Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 08:58:48 +1300
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Subject: Re: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-ietf-anima-grasp-01.txt
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Hi,

This is a major update because it includes the change from a TLV format
protocol to a CBOR protocol. It also includes quite a lot of fixes to
some aspects of the protocol behaviour. We *really* need some thorough
reviews of this version, please.

FYI, a worked example showed that the impact of changing to CBOR was
a very minor change to the average payload size: +3% or -3% according to
the assumptions made.

Also FYI, Carsten will be giving a short CBOR tutorial on Sunday afternoon
in Yokohama (https://www.ietf.org/meeting/94/tutorials/cbor.html).

Regards
   Brian Carpenter

On 09/10/2015 08:51, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> 
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
>  This draft is a work item of the Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach Working Group of the IETF.
> 
>         Title           : A Generic Autonomic Signaling Protocol (GRASP)
>         Authors         : Carsten Bormann
>                           Brian Carpenter
>                           Bing Liu
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-anima-grasp-01.txt
> 	Pages           : 51
> 	Date            : 2015-10-08
> 
> Abstract:
>    This document establishes requirements for a signaling protocol that
>    enables autonomic devices and autonomic service agents to dynamically
>    discover peers, to synchronize state with them, and to negotiate
>    parameter settings mutually with them.  The document then defines a
>    general protocol for discovery, synchronization and negotiation,
>    while the technical objectives for specific scenarios are to be
>    described in separate documents.  An Appendix briefly discusses
>    existing protocols with comparable features.
> 
> 
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-anima-grasp/
> 
> There's also a htmlized version available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-grasp-01
> 
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-anima-grasp-01
> 
> 
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
> 
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> 


From nobody Fri Oct  9 02:32:27 2015
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From: Duzongpeng <duzongpeng@huawei.com>
To: Anima WG <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Anima Intent use cases and Key Points //RE: Intent sources and recipients [Re: Du & Jeferson: question about Yokohama]
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Subject: [Anima] Anima Intent use cases and Key Points //RE: Intent sources and recipients [Re: Du & Jeferson: question about Yokohama]
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From nobody Fri Oct  9 11:58:41 2015
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To: Anima WG <anima@ietf.org>
References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BB2EA2A@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <55F08DEE.40301@gmail.com> <BAFEC9523F57BC48A51C20226A5589575F3F0253@nkgeml505-mbx.china.huawei.com> <CABv6xLu=q1aPXep9SF5RkRGRU9hbjR-co0bTn3PVdkk--oiY_w@mail.gmail.com> <55F28C10.3080701@alcatel-lucent.com> <BAFEC9523F57BC48A51C20226A5589575F4132AE@nkgeml505-mbx.china.huawei.com> <560C385F.4090707@gmail.com> <CABv6xLsUJoBwXuu4piUQ1PV91qcOXWmv8X1iD7BCeDEHVth4UQ@mail.gmail.com> <2da0ae6d.d1.1502eafa16c.Coremail.dzpzp@126.com> <56124359.6030503@alcatel-lucent.com> <5612C71C.6010606@gmail.com> <BAFEC9523F57BC48A51C20226A5589575F413C56@nkgeml505-mbx.china.huawei.com>
From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 14:58:27 -0400
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Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=a9ferson_Campos_Nobre?= <jcnobre@inf.ufrgs.br>, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: [Anima] Anima Intent use cases and Key Points -- Load Balancing
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Apologies if I am missing something obvious.  This was prompted by 
Zongpeng Du's note, but is not specific to that.

I have seen several messages refering to load balancing, and to turning 
on load balancing.
I do not know what people expect from autonomic enabling of load 
balancing (or disabling?)  I wonder if people in this working group even 
mean the same thing.

One use of the term "load balancing" in general refers to redirection 
traffic to different end servers, so as to distribute server load.  This 
is normally done with explicit load balancers.  There are many types. 
It is normally an internal service specifically enabled / configured / 
requested by the owner of the end service.
I presume that is now what is meant here.

Another use is traffic distribution across roughly equal links.  This is 
frequently done by IP routing (ECMP) or layer 2 forwarding (LAG or 
multi-chassis LAG.)  I have trouble conceiving of a situation where one 
would autonomously turn such a behavior on or off.  At L3, it is usually 
on by default, and does the right thing.  At L2, it is normally 
configured because L2 does not traditionally use routing protocols with 
metrics.  Newer techniques enable the same automatic use as for L3.

And a third use is when human beings examine the traffic behavior in a 
network, and adjust metrics or other traffic steering techniques to 
better distribute the load.  While this is something that folks have 
been and are automating, that use usually centralized due to the need 
for an omniscient view to do the job right.

So when Anima talks about Load Balancing, what do we mean?

Thank you,
Joel


From nobody Fri Oct  9 19:16:39 2015
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From: Duzongpeng <duzongpeng@huawei.com>
To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, Anima WG <anima@ietf.org>, Laurent Ciavaglia <Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Anima Intent use cases and Key Points -- Load Balancing
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Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 02:16:17 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Anima Intent use cases and Key Points -- Load Balancing
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Hi Joel:

Thanks for the comment. I want to introduce some background information and=
 try to explain the reasons.

Within my understanding, ANIMA at this stage has not discussed too specific=
 devices, such as explicit load balancers, and are mainly talking about the=
 general devices like a router. Also, ANIMA mainly cares about the distribu=
ted network elements.

Cited from the working group Description:

Autonomic networking refers to the self-managing characteristics
(configuration, protection, healing, and optimization) of distributed=20
network elements, adapting to unpredictable changes while hiding=20
intrinsic complexity from operators and users.

So I guess that the use case is talking about "traffic distribution across =
roughly equal links".
Of course, it can work without Autonomic Functions.
However, in autonomic network, we need the network to be able to change the=
 policies according to various network situations to become more intelligen=
t. The distributed network elements should be able to take action according=
 to the knowledge and information that it obtains, while human intervention=
 is as little as possible.=20

Best Regards
Zongpeng Du

-----Original Message-----
From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2015 2:58 AM
To: Anima WG
Cc: J=E9ferson Campos Nobre; Sheng Jiang
Subject: Re: [Anima] Anima Intent use cases and Key Points -- Load Balancin=
g

Apologies if I am missing something obvious.  This was prompted by Zongpeng=
 Du's note, but is not specific to that.

I have seen several messages refering to load balancing, and to turning on =
load balancing.
I do not know what people expect from autonomic enabling of load balancing =
(or disabling?)  I wonder if people in this working group even mean the sam=
e thing.

One use of the term "load balancing" in general refers to redirection traff=
ic to different end servers, so as to distribute server load.  This is norm=
ally done with explicit load balancers.  There are many types.=20
It is normally an internal service specifically enabled / configured / requ=
ested by the owner of the end service.
I presume that is now what is meant here.

Another use is traffic distribution across roughly equal links.  This is fr=
equently done by IP routing (ECMP) or layer 2 forwarding (LAG or multi-chas=
sis LAG.)  I have trouble conceiving of a situation where one would autonom=
ously turn such a behavior on or off.  At L3, it is usually on by default, =
and does the right thing.  At L2, it is normally configured because L2 does=
 not traditionally use routing protocols with metrics.  Newer techniques en=
able the same automatic use as for L3.

And a third use is when human beings examine the traffic behavior in a netw=
ork, and adjust metrics or other traffic steering techniques to better dist=
ribute the load.  While this is something that folks have been and are auto=
mating, that use usually centralized due to the need for an omniscient view=
 to do the job right.

So when Anima talks about Load Balancing, what do we mean?

Thank you,
Joel

_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


From nobody Tue Oct 13 18:48:56 2015
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Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 18:48:51 -0700
From: Toerless Eckert <eckert@cisco.com>
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Subject: [Anima] ANIMA: reminder: timeout for updating or new submissions
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Just a friendly service announcement from your WG chairs:

Monday Oct. 19. 2015, UTC 23:59  is the timeout to upload
new or updated IETF drafts to the tools page! After that, the
tools pafge will close for two weeks and opens again sunday night during
IETF week.

Cheers
   Sheng & Toerless


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--_004_50805AF0C2CB4694A69EC8CDEFEC73AFciscocom_--


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From: "Max Pritikin (pritikin)" <pritikin@cisco.com>
To: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Call for Agenda ANIMA @ IETF94, Yokohama
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Cc: "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" <eckert@cisco.com>, anima-bootstrap <anima-bootstrap@ietf.org>, Anima WG <anima@ietf.org>, "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Anima] Call for Agenda ANIMA @ IETF94, Yokohama
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Bootstrap will need an agenda slot to discuss current status and open items=
 for continued discussion.=20

Thanks,

- max

> On Oct 7, 2015, at 8:35 PM, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi, all,
>=20
> We have requested two sessions of 2 hour + 1.5 hour for the ANIMA WG
> meeting for IETF-94 (Yokohama) and are starting to collect agenda items
> for this session. Following the advice from our responsible ADs, we do no=
t
> reserve the second session for non-charter work items. It says the charte=
r
> work item would have priority. We will only discuss non-charter work=20
> items until we finish charter work items. The priority among these=20
> non-charter work items would be: these that have active discussion in=20
> mail list, then these have submitted drafts, and topics without drafts.
>=20
> Please send us (anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org) requests for sessions and
> include:
>=20
> Name of time slot:
> Name of draft(s):
> Time requested:
> Presenter name(s):
> Brief description of what issues need discussing and what you hope to
> accomplish by presenting (please focus on open issues, rather than a
> status update):
>=20
> More details about the Yokohama IETF can be found at
> http://www.ietf.org/meeting/94/index.html.
>=20
> Again, presenters and draft authors please invoke active discussions in
> the ANIMA list. We have very limited time for each topic in the
> face-to-face meeting. Mail list is a very good place to discuss and reach
> consensus on technical issues.
>=20
> Best regards,
>=20
> Toerless & Sheng
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: "Max Pritikin (pritikin)" <pritikin@cisco.com>, Anima WG <anima@ietf.org>,  anima-bootstrap <anima-bootstrap@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: bootstrap design team meeting notes Re: [Anima] Adjacency table
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To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
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From: "Toy, Mehmet" <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>
To: Toerless Eckert <eckert@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: Self-Managed Networks
Thread-Index: AdD/kRO6wwWTW9ATTCGfmWDsg6vmTgHZrtGAAAGfsnA=
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 03:02:04 +0000
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Cc: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\) \(dromasca@avaya.com\)" <dromasca@avaya.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "mbehring@cisco.com" <mbehring@cisco.com>, "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
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Toerless,
Please see below.
Thanks
Mehmet

-----Original Message-----
From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:eckert@cisco.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:16 PM
To: Toy, Mehmet
Cc: anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org; brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com; mbehring@cisc=
o.com; Romascanu, Dan (Dan) (dromasca@avaya.com)
Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks

Toy:

Unless you feel its more appropriate to keep this discussion in this closed=
 mailing list, i would suggest to have it on the anima mailing list.=20

First off: You've compressed really a lot of crucial arch design from your =
detailed first slidedeck into this a lot more pithy, yet comprehensive firs=
t draft. I think my main concern is how we can work on the SW engineering a=
spects of how to build it and build upon the anima infrastructure.

I think i did ask you some IETFs ago when you presented your slides, that i=
t would be good if we could focus on that aspect.

Eg: Could we add a section to the document outlining a summary of how this =
framework would leverage and benefit from the the currently planned anima i=
nfrastructure - why/ how to use it - so we know the requirements we have, e=
specially if those are any we would need to consider during recharter.
MT: As you can see from my previous email, I am not on board with current a=
rchitectural definitions.  Once we are sync on the definitions of architect=
ural components, I should make an attempt to address your concerns.

If you'd ask me, primarily as a contributor considering what would best hel=
p to make this happen - and move ANIMA forward, i think the key aspects are=
:=20

1) easily, ideally autonomous downloadable agent/application infra.

Eg: I don't see any way that either vendors or operators could realisticall=
y build this framework if these components are tied into the classical rout=
er OS software delivery model where it takes months to validate a sofftware=
 update and more months to deploy it. If this can be downloaded, as separat=
e apps then its so much easier to incrementally build/deploy it on a totall=
y different deployment process.=20

How exactly should this be done so operators like comcast will most likely =
start incrementally deploying this ?

Eg: I am sure autonomic agents will be the next re-charter item, the functi=
onality you describe for fault-management via such agents is great, and i c=
an see how that is just good work to refine, so i am mostly worred about th=
e sW-engineering and operational aspects of such autonomic agents.

MT: What I propose is unlikely to be done completely just by autonomic agen=
ts or software, but can be partially done by autonomic agents.  This is the=
 key reason for these email exchanges.

2) Clear APIs to existing router operations.

We would need to have an idea how these new components would talk to the re=
st of the router. This seems like an eay "oh, we can have those agents do 3=
0 year old router CLI locally, but we'd prefer Netconf/Yang with IETF stand=
ardized models, and we do need the following yang models for the first impo=
rtant FP operations". There is also talk about expanding into Thrift for hi=
gher performance data collection (beyond netconf, still with yang).

MT: Agree, but we are far from these steps.  We have to agree on the fundam=
entals.
3) connectivity between the agents.

This is primarily where at the lowest layer the ACP would come in and it wo=
uld be great to see argument if/how security, zero-touch build-up and indes=
tructibility are required and/or beneficial for these agents functions.  Yo=
u already mention the security aspect in your security section. Great.=20

Next layer is leveraging GRASP as a protocol for agent-to-agent communicati=
on. Is it feasible/beneficial to expect a common new message signaling laye=
r with GRAP ? If so, it would be great to describee why and how. Eg: what c=
ommunication patterns would your agents have, do the patterns GRASP support=
 suit your agents ?
MT: In general I am not in favor of defining another control layer for this=
 purposes. Therefore, my proposed design  does not need and does not have a=
 protocol for communications. =20

Your section 7 already has one specific layer of message communicartions, b=
ut it is directly tied to ethernet frame. I'd like to understand this bette=
r. I for once would think one would define for the message eleemnts a Yang/=
CBOR data model "failure management yang model". Then we look how to carry =
it. agent-to-agent, i would propose to actually run over GRASP (using CBOR =
representation of course), but to humans behind an NMS its more likely via =
netconf/yang from an agent into the NMS.
MT: Ethernet frame is just an example. We can collectively decide to have s=
omething else. The key point here is to have one message format for all FM =
related communications.

There may be other aspects, but if this makes sense to you, it would be gre=
at if we could get such a section added. Let me know if you need any help w=
ith that.
MT: Appreciate the offer. Again we need to sync up on the fundamentals firs=
t.

Cheers
    Toerless

On Mon, Oct 05, 2015 at 05:14:19PM +0000, Toy, Mehmet wrote:
> Dear All:
> I couldn't attend the Prague meeting, but luckily Dan was able to present=
 my slides on "Self-Managed Networks with Fault Management Hierarchy".   Th=
e feedback was to position the work in the ANIMA WG scope and framework.
>=20
> ANIMA charter in "M. Behringer, et. al., A Reference Model for Autonomic =
Networking
> draft-behringer-anima-reference-model-03" refers to "self-healing".  RFC7=
575,  "M. Behringer, et al.,   Autonomic Networking: Definitions and Design=
 Goals",  refers to "self-management". However, both documents do not  arti=
culate fault management aspect of the self-management.  It is possible to i=
nterpret the fault management aspect of autonomic networks as part of "self=
-healing" and therefore as part of the ANIMA charter.  In that case, the "A=
rchitectural Framework for Self-Managed Networks with Fault Management Hier=
archy, draft-mtoy-anima-self-faultmang-framework-00.txt" contribution can t=
arget to fill that gap.  The control plane aspect of self-healing is addres=
sed by "M. Behringer, et al., An Autonomic Control Plane, draft-behringer-a=
nima-autonomic-control-plane-03".  I believe these contributions are comple=
mentary to each other. I can try to address that in the contribution.
>=20
> Please let me know if you agree with me. If not, I suggest to modify the =
charter since without covering fault management aspect of the autonomic net=
works, the concept of autonomic network will be incomplete.
>=20
> Regards,
> Mehmet
>=20
>=20

--
---
Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com


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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: "Toy, Mehmet" <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Next version of reference model
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Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 09:06:19 +0000
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Subject: [Anima] Next version of reference model
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Many people have contributed or promised to contribute to the reference mod=
el, but to this date I have not received many updates of the corresponding =
sections.=20

I'm planning to spin a new version tomorrow, with the updates I have so far=
.=20

If you have some cycles today to provide an update, please do so!=20

Michael


From f80077@ulusofona.pt  Thu Oct 15 02:08:19 2015
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References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BBB558B@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <7145ab65268b4fb3b279e2ce9da1fdaa@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <cbc6f29eda114b848f3dac35609b2da8@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <9c8b64c962c443f19f6fd784cb9927a7@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <7512f6b600904c49838fcf729e3000a5@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <334e22acb30e487eb7f5a2d41fb54499@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <ff7789800a574fcb901e096a0a11f5bb@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <dd5a46abd24c49d2a9acd31a608ef7e8@VAADCEX37.cable.comcast.com> <14fdc79570b54d0e9562382c5d53a3ef@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <561EC845.9020505@gmail.com> <c1e45907707f42d3ae1e9beb0647a760@VAADCEX37.cable.comcast.com> <03347fe65bce48e9ba28827f5c4c0624@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 10:08:11 +0100
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From: Reddy Pallavali <f80077@ulusofona.pt>
To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
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Cc: "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "Toy, Mehmet" <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>
Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
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Hi,

I am new to this mailing list, and junior researcher from COPELABS, Lisbon.

I have one suggestion when it comes to ACP toolkit - instead of using
synchronization, can use consensus?

Since, synchronization is more towards centralized "Coordinator initiate to
agree on something (towards centralized), and others have to adjust their
state".
When it comes to consensus "individual neighbors come to global
intelligence by simple communication rules (fully distributed), and
majority opinion is valid".

My PhD thesis area is on Consensus so, i can contribute this section.



On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 9:57 AM, Michael Behringer (mbehring) <
mbehring@cisco.com> wrote:

> Toy, thanks for raising those questions. Obviously, we're not doing a goo=
d
> job yet in describing what the ACP is, and that needs to be fixed. And
> obviously, we all need the same view to progress further. So this is a ve=
ry
> important discussion, and I really welcome it.
>
> Before formalising better text, let me see whether we get agreement on th=
e
> fundamental idea.
>
> In my head, there are two layers: The ACP, and on top of that the
> Autonomic Functions:
>
> * The ACP is the "tool kit". It comprises various "mechanics", such as
> negotiation, synchronisation, discovery of various sorts, messaging, etc.
> Those are all based on a common addressing and naming concept.
>
> * Autonomic Functions use that tool kit to do something clever. In other
> words, the true autonomic "intelligence" sits on that level.
>
> There is *one* ACP, there are *many* autonomic functions on top.
>
> One way to decide to which layer something belongs is to ask: "is this (1=
)
> a generic functionality which many functions require, or is this (2) one
> specific function?". If the answer is (1), it belongs into the ACP, if (2=
)
> it belongs into an autonomic function.
>
> So, in this light, my understanding (!) of fault management is that this
> is an autonomic function, and would use common blocks of the underlying
> ACP. Conversely, it would not offer services to other autonomic functions
> on top. This is my way of thinking when I write "this is an autonomic
> function".  And I'm not 100% certain I understand what you're suggesting,
> so please chime in here! (And I haven't read your draft fully yet, sorry)
>
> Look at
> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-01.txt
> This draft describes "intelligence". In that case, a way to automatically
> manage address space. Sections 2.2 and 2.3 explain which parameters and
> information exchanges such a function would require. Sheng wrote this
> document to explain how an autonomic function would use a common ACP.
>
> Probably we should take some off-line time in Yokohama to discuss this in
> a small team?
>
> Michael
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Toy, Mehmet
> > Sent: 15 October 2015 04:26
> > To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>; Michael Behringer
> > (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com>; anima@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
> >
> > Michael and Brian,
> > Per Toerless suggestion, I am including ANIMA group into the discussion=
.
> >
> > I re-read the "A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking" document and
> > I am not clear about the definitions.
> >
> > a)  In the "A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking", ACP is defined
> as
> > "The Autonomic Control Plane is the summary of all interactions of the
> > Autonomic Networking Infrastructure with other nodes and services.".
> >
> > b) Brian, you write as " The ACP is common infrastructure for all
> autonomic
> > functions.(The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of course.) The signalin=
g
> > protocol is also common infrastructure."
> >
> > Question: What is ACP? a or b or combination?
> >
> > c) Section 4 in the reference model document , "The Autonomic Networkin=
g
> > Infrastructure provides a layer of common  functionality across an
> Autonomic
> > Network.  It comprises "must implement" functions and services, as well
> as
> > extensions."
> > Question: What are the "must implement" functionalities?  How do you
> > define "must implement" functionalities?
> >
> > Thanks
> > Mehmet
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM
> > To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); Toy, Mehmet
> > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
> > chairs@tools.ietf.org'
> > Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks
> >
> > I agree with Michael. The ACP is common infrastructure for all autonomi=
c
> > functions.
> > (The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of course.) The signaling protocol
> is also
> > common infrastructure.
> >
> >    Brian
> > On 15/10/2015 05:43, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
> > > I would argue they are part of an autonomic function, which runs on
> top of
> > the ACP.
> > > There are really two different pieces here, and this is I think the
> confusion
> > here:
> > >
> > > -          The ACP is self-managing. It needs to do self-healing, and
> > automatically adapt to new situations. But to me, this isn=E2=80=99t fa=
ult
> management
> > or performance management as an operator understands it.
> > >
> > > -          The network has FM and PM function. Those could be (and
> should
> > be, imo) autonomic functions. Those run on top of the ACP.
> > > Bottom line: I=E2=80=99d like to keep the ACP itself as minimalistic =
and
> simple as we
> > possibly can. Functions like FM / PM belong into an autonomic function,
> IMO.
> > > What do you think?
> > > Michael
> > > From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
> > > Sent: 14 October 2015 18:30
> > > To: Michael Behringer (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com>
> > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com' <dromasca@avaya.com>;
> > 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'
> > > <jiangsheng@huawei.com>; 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org'
> > > <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
> > > <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
> > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Michael,
> > > Instead of answering the question as Yes or No, let me give examples =
to
> > see what makes sense.
> > > Let=E2=80=99s say in a data path, a router port is failed.  The route=
r
> generates an AIS
> > (Alarm Indication Signal) and the receiving  end generates RDI (remote
> > Defect Indicator).  Both messages are generated by the hardware, not by=
 a
> > software or ACP.   As a result of this failure,  there would be packet
> loss. The
> > hardware counts these losses, an ACP does not.
> > > For the FM and PM functions above, can we say they are part of an ACP=
?
> > > Thanks
> > > Mehmet
> > > From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:34 AM
> > > To: Toy, Mehmet
> > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
> > chairs@tools.ietf.org'; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
> > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Hi Toy,
> > > To understand better: To me, fault management *uses* the functions of
> > the AN infrastructure. It uses the ACP to communicate, maybe GRASP for
> > some signalling, might be influenced by Intent, etc. Right?  So to me,
> this is a
> > logical component of an autonomic network that sits on top of the AN
> > infrastructure.
> > > Do we agree?
> > > Michael
> > >
> > > From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
> > > Sent: 13 October 2015 23:46
> > > To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
> > > <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
> > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'
> > > <dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>;
> > > 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'
> > > <jiangsheng@huawei.com<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>>;
> > > 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org'
> > > <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>;
> > > 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
> > > <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>
> > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Michael,
> > > Appreciate the reply.
> > > FM is part of data plane and control plane (i.e. ANI in your diagram)=
.
> > > My plan is to add a short paragraph for now either to section 2 to
> expand
> > the description  of ANI or to section 4 to add a sub-section for Fault
> > Management.
> > >
> > > It is also possible too add a Performance Management section to
> describe
> > what types of measurements and where and how are used.  Although there
> > is a control feedback related measurement in the document, I don=E2=80=
=99t know
> if
> > it is adequate.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Mehmet
> > > From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 12:27 PM
> > > To: Toy, Mehmet
> > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
> > chairs@tools.ietf.org'; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
> > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Sorry for the delay, it=E2=80=99s very busy at the moment here.
> > > To me, fault management refers generally to faults on the data plane,
> ie for
> > user traffic. I see that happening at some point as an autonomic
> function (or
> > several, for different aspects). Would you agree? Or do you see that as=
 a
> > function inside the AN infrastructure?
> > > So my feeling is that function would reside on top of the
> infrastructure that
> > we=E2=80=99re currently defining. So, please have a look whether your t=
houghts
> can
> > be described as an autonomic function. I think they probably can.
> > > Then I suggest we do the same that we=E2=80=99re planning to do with =
the NMS
> > section, the model discussion, etc: Have a short paragraph describe the
> > overall topic briefly, and point to an external doc for now, i.e.,
> probably your
> > draft.
> > > If you agree, can you suggest where in the reference model you would
> add
> > a short paragraph about fault management, and I suppose we=E2=80=99d po=
int to
> your
> > draft, right?
> > > Michael
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
> > > Sent: 13 October 2015 03:53
> > > To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
> > > <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
> > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'
> > > <dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>;
> > > 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'
> > > <jiangsheng@huawei.com<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>>;
> > > 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org'
> > > <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>;
> > > 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
> > > <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>
> > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Mike,
> > > I am waiting for your response.
> > > Thanks
> > > Mehmet
> > >
> > > From: Toy, Mehmet
> > > Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 8:13 PM
> > > To: 'mbehring@cisco.com'
> > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
> > chairs@tools.ietf.org'; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
> > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Mike,
> > > I can send you some text to include in section 2 and 4 of  =E2=80=9CA=
 Reference
> > Model for Autonomic Networking,   draft-behringer-anima-reference-
> > model-03=E2=80=9D,  per Sheng=E2=80=99s suggestion.
> > > Should I just do that?
> > > Thanks
> > > Mehmet
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Toy, Mehmet
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 7:53 AM
> > > To: 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org';
> > 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'; 'mbehring@cisco.com'
> > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'
> > > Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Sheng,
> > > Appreciate a quick response.
> > > I will work on your suggestion.
> > > Mehmet
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 06:08 AM Eastern Standard Time
> > > To: Toy, Mehmet;
> > > anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>
> > > <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>;
> > > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
> > > <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>;
> > > mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>
> > > <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
> > > Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
> > > (dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>)
> > > <dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>
> > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Hi, Toy,
> > > First of all, for my understanding, your work is in the scope of the =
WG
> > charter. However, we do not have work item or milestone for it. It look=
s
> like
> > an upper-layer autonomic service agent for me. In our plan, autonomic
> > service agents are mainly for the next period, which is after re-charte=
r
> (this is
> > the same with your suggestion of modifying the charter, but it cannot
> > happen until we deliver the current milestones). For now, the best may =
be
> > try to add some description, maybe mainly abstracted functionality, int=
o
> the
> > reference model document.
> > > Best regards,
> > > Sheng
> > >
> > > From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 1:14 AM
> > > To: anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>;
> > > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>;
> > > mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>
> > > Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
> > > (dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>)
> > > Subject: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Dear All:
> > > I couldn=E2=80=99t attend the Prague meeting, but luckily Dan was abl=
e to
> present
> > my slides on =E2=80=9CSelf-Managed Networks with Fault Management Hiera=
rchy=E2=80=9D.
> > The feedback was to position the work in the ANIMA WG scope and
> > framework.
> > >
> > > ANIMA charter in =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et. al., A Reference Model fo=
r
> Autonomic
> > Networking
> > > draft-behringer-anima-reference-model-03=E2=80=9D refers to =E2=80=9C=
self-healing=E2=80=9D.
> > RFC7575,  =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et al.,   Autonomic Networking: Defini=
tions and
> > Design Goals=E2=80=9D,  refers to =E2=80=9Cself-management=E2=80=9D. Ho=
wever, both documents do
> > not  articulate fault management aspect of the self-management.  It is
> > possible to interpret the fault management aspect of autonomic networks
> as
> > part of =E2=80=9Cself-healing=E2=80=9D and therefore as part of the ANI=
MA charter.  In
> that
> > case, the =E2=80=9CArchitectural Framework for Self-Managed Networks wi=
th Fault
> > Management Hierarchy, draft-mtoy-anima-self-faultmang-framework-
> > 00.txt=E2=80=9D contribution can target to fill that gap.  The control =
plane
> aspect of
> > self-healing is addressed by =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et al., An Autonomi=
c Control
> > Plane, draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane-03=E2=80=9D.  I be=
lieve
> these
> > contributions are complementary to each other. I can try to address tha=
t
> in
> > the contribution.
> > >
> > > Please let me know if you agree with me. If not, I suggest to modify
> the
> > charter since without covering fault management aspect of the autonomic
> > networks, the concept of autonomic network will be incomplete.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Mehmet
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Anima mailing list
> > Anima@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>



--=20
Thank you very much for your time and consideration.


Yours sincerely,

P Radha Krishna Reddy, M.Sc, M.Tech,

Junior Researcher/Ph.D Student,

COPE LABS, Universidade Lusofona, Lisboa - Portugal.
Author of: Security Issues of Cloud Computing over General & IT Sector
Mobile: +351923095671
www.prkreddy.webs.com
http://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div><div>Hi,<br><br></div>I am new to this=
 mailing list, and junior researcher from COPELABS, Lisbon.<br><br></div>I =
have one suggestion when it comes to ACP toolkit - instead of using synchro=
nization, can use consensus?<br><br></div>Since, synchronization is more to=
wards centralized &quot;Coordinator initiate to agree on something (towards=
 centralized), and others have to adjust their state&quot;. <br></div>When =
it comes to consensus &quot;individual neighbors come to global intelligenc=
e by simple communication rules (fully distributed), and majority opinion i=
s valid&quot;. <br><br></div>My PhD thesis area is on Consensus so, i can c=
ontribute this section.<br><br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 9:57 AM, Michael Behringer =
(mbehring) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex">Toy, thanks for raising those questions. Obviously, we&#39;re=
 not doing a good job yet in describing what the ACP is, and that needs to =
be fixed. And obviously, we all need the same view to progress further. So =
this is a very important discussion, and I really welcome it.<br>
<br>
Before formalising better text, let me see whether we get agreement on the =
fundamental idea.<br>
<br>
In my head, there are two layers: The ACP, and on top of that the Autonomic=
 Functions:<br>
<br>
* The ACP is the &quot;tool kit&quot;. It comprises various &quot;mechanics=
&quot;, such as negotiation, synchronisation, discovery of various sorts, m=
essaging, etc. Those are all based on a common addressing and naming concep=
t.<br>
<br>
* Autonomic Functions use that tool kit to do something clever. In other wo=
rds, the true autonomic &quot;intelligence&quot; sits on that level.<br>
<br>
There is *one* ACP, there are *many* autonomic functions on top.<br>
<br>
One way to decide to which layer something belongs is to ask: &quot;is this=
 (1) a generic functionality which many functions require, or is this (2) o=
ne specific function?&quot;. If the answer is (1), it belongs into the ACP,=
 if (2) it belongs into an autonomic function.<br>
<br>
So, in this light, my understanding (!) of fault management is that this is=
 an autonomic function, and would use common blocks of the underlying ACP. =
Conversely, it would not offer services to other autonomic functions on top=
. This is my way of thinking when I write &quot;this is an autonomic functi=
on&quot;.=C2=A0 And I&#39;m not 100% certain I understand what you&#39;re s=
uggesting, so please chime in here! (And I haven&#39;t read your draft full=
y yet, sorry)<br>
<br>
Look at <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-manage=
ment-01.txt" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/id/=
draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-01.txt</a><br>
This draft describes &quot;intelligence&quot;. In that case, a way to autom=
atically manage address space. Sections 2.2 and 2.3 explain which parameter=
s and information exchanges such a function would require. Sheng wrote this=
 document to explain how an autonomic function would use a common ACP.<br>
<br>
Probably we should take some off-line time in Yokohama to discuss this in a=
 small team?<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
Michael<br>
</font></span><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Anima [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org">anima-bo=
unces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Toy, Mehmet<br>
&gt; Sent: 15 October 2015 04:26<br>
&gt; To: Brian E Carpenter &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.co=
m">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Michael Behringer<br>
&gt; (mbehring) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.co=
m</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:anima@ietf.org">anima@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Michael and Brian,<br>
&gt; Per Toerless suggestion, I am including ANIMA group into the discussio=
n.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I re-read the &quot;A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking&quot; d=
ocument and<br>
&gt; I am not clear about the definitions.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; a)=C2=A0 In the &quot;A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking&quot;=
, ACP is defined as<br>
&gt; &quot;The Autonomic Control Plane is the summary of all interactions o=
f the<br>
&gt; Autonomic Networking Infrastructure with other nodes and services.&quo=
t;.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; b) Brian, you write as &quot; The ACP is common infrastructure for all=
 autonomic<br>
&gt; functions.(The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of course.) The signali=
ng<br>
&gt; protocol is also common infrastructure.&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Question: What is ACP? a or b or combination?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; c) Section 4 in the reference model document , &quot;The Autonomic Net=
working<br>
&gt; Infrastructure provides a layer of common=C2=A0 functionality across a=
n Autonomic<br>
&gt; Network.=C2=A0 It comprises &quot;must implement&quot; functions and s=
ervices, as well as<br>
&gt; extensions.&quot;<br>
&gt; Question: What are the &quot;must implement&quot; functionalities?=C2=
=A0 How do you<br>
&gt; define &quot;must implement&quot; functionalities?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thanks<br>
&gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gm=
ail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>]<br>
&gt; Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM<br>
&gt; To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); Toy, Mehmet<br>
&gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&=
#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.com</=
a>&#39;; &#39;anima-<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org">chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&#39=
;<br>
&gt; Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I agree with Michael. The ACP is common infrastructure for all autonom=
ic<br>
&gt; functions.<br>
&gt; (The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of course.) The signaling protoco=
l is also<br>
&gt; common infrastructure.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian<br>
&gt; On 15/10/2015 05:43, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; I would argue they are part of an autonomic function, which runs =
on top of<br>
&gt; the ACP.<br>
&gt; &gt; There are really two different pieces here, and this is I think t=
he confusion<br>
&gt; here:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; -=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The ACP is self-managing. It =
needs to do self-healing, and<br>
&gt; automatically adapt to new situations. But to me, this isn=E2=80=99t f=
ault management<br>
&gt; or performance management as an operator understands it.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; -=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The network has FM and PM fun=
ction. Those could be (and should<br>
&gt; be, imo) autonomic functions. Those run on top of the ACP.<br>
&gt; &gt; Bottom line: I=E2=80=99d like to keep the ACP itself as minimalis=
tic and simple as we<br>
&gt; possibly can. Functions like FM / PM belong into an autonomic function=
, IMO.<br>
&gt; &gt; What do you think?<br>
&gt; &gt; Michael<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comc=
ast.com">Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: 14 October 2015 18:30<br>
&gt; &gt; To: Michael Behringer (mbehring) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@c=
isco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com=
</a>&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&=
gt;;<br>
&gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a=
>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.co=
m</a>&gt;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs=
@tools.ietf.org</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs@t=
ools.ietf.org</a>&gt;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">=
brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpen=
ter@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Michael,<br>
&gt; &gt; Instead of answering the question as Yes or No, let me give examp=
les to<br>
&gt; see what makes sense.<br>
&gt; &gt; Let=E2=80=99s say in a data path, a router port is failed.=C2=A0 =
The router generates an AIS<br>
&gt; (Alarm Indication Signal) and the receiving=C2=A0 end generates RDI (r=
emote<br>
&gt; Defect Indicator).=C2=A0 Both messages are generated by the hardware, =
not by a<br>
&gt; software or ACP.=C2=A0 =C2=A0As a result of this failure,=C2=A0 there =
would be packet loss. The<br>
&gt; hardware counts these losses, an ACP does not.<br>
&gt; &gt; For the FM and PM functions above, can we say they are part of an=
 ACP?<br>
&gt; &gt; Thanks<br>
&gt; &gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbeh=
ring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:34 AM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: Toy, Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com=
</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.=
com</a>&#39;; &#39;anima-<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org">chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&#39=
;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gm=
ail.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Hi Toy,<br>
&gt; &gt; To understand better: To me, fault management *uses* the function=
s of<br>
&gt; the AN infrastructure. It uses the ACP to communicate, maybe GRASP for=
<br>
&gt; some signalling, might be influenced by Intent, etc. Right?=C2=A0 So t=
o me, this is a<br>
&gt; logical component of an autonomic network that sits on top of the AN<b=
r>
&gt; infrastructure.<br>
&gt; &gt; Do we agree?<br>
&gt; &gt; Michael<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comc=
ast.com">Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: 13 October 2015 23:46<br>
&gt; &gt; To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&=
lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt;&=
gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com=
</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&=
lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&gt;&=
gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.c=
om</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.co=
m</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.=
com</a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs@=
tools.ietf.org</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs@t=
ools.ietf.org</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">=
anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpe=
nter@gmail.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpen=
ter@gmail.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">=
brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Michael,<br>
&gt; &gt; Appreciate the reply.<br>
&gt; &gt; FM is part of data plane and control plane (i.e. ANI in your diag=
ram).<br>
&gt; &gt; My plan is to add a short paragraph for now either to section 2 t=
o expand<br>
&gt; the description=C2=A0 of ANI or to section 4 to add a sub-section for =
Fault<br>
&gt; Management.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; It is also possible too add a Performance Management section to d=
escribe<br>
&gt; what types of measurements and where and how are used.=C2=A0 Although =
there<br>
&gt; is a control feedback related measurement in the document, I don=E2=80=
=99t know if<br>
&gt; it is adequate.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; &gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbeh=
ring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 12:27 PM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: Toy, Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com=
</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.=
com</a>&#39;; &#39;anima-<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org">chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&#39=
;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gm=
ail.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Sorry for the delay, it=E2=80=99s very busy at the moment here.<b=
r>
&gt; &gt; To me, fault management refers generally to faults on the data pl=
ane, ie for<br>
&gt; user traffic. I see that happening at some point as an autonomic funct=
ion (or<br>
&gt; several, for different aspects). Would you agree? Or do you see that a=
s a<br>
&gt; function inside the AN infrastructure?<br>
&gt; &gt; So my feeling is that function would reside on top of the infrast=
ructure that<br>
&gt; we=E2=80=99re currently defining. So, please have a look whether your =
thoughts can<br>
&gt; be described as an autonomic function. I think they probably can.<br>
&gt; &gt; Then I suggest we do the same that we=E2=80=99re planning to do w=
ith the NMS<br>
&gt; section, the model discussion, etc: Have a short paragraph describe th=
e<br>
&gt; overall topic briefly, and point to an external doc for now, i.e., pro=
bably your<br>
&gt; draft.<br>
&gt; &gt; If you agree, can you suggest where in the reference model you wo=
uld add<br>
&gt; a short paragraph about fault management, and I suppose we=E2=80=99d p=
oint to your<br>
&gt; draft, right?<br>
&gt; &gt; Michael<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comc=
ast.com">Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: 13 October 2015 03:53<br>
&gt; &gt; To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&=
lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt;&=
gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com=
</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&=
lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&gt;&=
gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.c=
om</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.co=
m</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.=
com</a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs@=
tools.ietf.org</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs@t=
ools.ietf.org</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">=
anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpe=
nter@gmail.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpen=
ter@gmail.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">=
brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Mike,<br>
&gt; &gt; I am waiting for your response.<br>
&gt; &gt; Thanks<br>
&gt; &gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Toy, Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 8:13 PM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com=
</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com=
</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.=
com</a>&#39;; &#39;anima-<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org">chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&#39=
;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gm=
ail.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Mike,<br>
&gt; &gt; I can send you some text to include in section 2 and 4 of=C2=A0 =
=E2=80=9CA Reference<br>
&gt; Model for Autonomic Networking,=C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-behringer-anima-refe=
rence-<br>
&gt; model-03=E2=80=9D,=C2=A0 per Sheng=E2=80=99s suggestion.<br>
&gt; &gt; Should I just do that?<br>
&gt; &gt; Thanks<br>
&gt; &gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Toy, Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 7:53 AM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huaw=
ei.com</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-=
chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&#39;;<br>
&gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@=
gmail.com</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cis=
co.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com=
</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Sheng,<br>
&gt; &gt; Appreciate a quick response.<br>
&gt; &gt; I will work on your suggestion.<br>
&gt; &gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com=
">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 06:08 AM Eastern Standard Time<b=
r>
&gt; &gt; To: Toy, Mehmet;<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs@tools=
.ietf.org</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anim=
a-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs@t=
ools.ietf.org</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">=
anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@=
gmail.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">bria=
n.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpen=
ter@gmail.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">=
brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&lt;m=
ailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&=
lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt;&=
gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)<br>
&gt; &gt; (<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&lt;=
mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&gt;)<br=
>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&=
lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&gt;&=
gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Hi, Toy,<br>
&gt; &gt; First of all, for my understanding, your work is in the scope of =
the WG<br>
&gt; charter. However, we do not have work item or milestone for it. It loo=
ks like<br>
&gt; an upper-layer autonomic service agent for me. In our plan, autonomic<=
br>
&gt; service agents are mainly for the next period, which is after re-chart=
er (this is<br>
&gt; the same with your suggestion of modifying the charter, but it cannot<=
br>
&gt; happen until we deliver the current milestones). For now, the best may=
 be<br>
&gt; try to add some description, maybe mainly abstracted functionality, in=
to the<br>
&gt; reference model document.<br>
&gt; &gt; Best regards,<br>
&gt; &gt; Sheng<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comc=
ast.com">Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 1:14 AM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs@t=
ools.ietf.org</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">=
anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@=
gmail.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">bria=
n.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&lt;m=
ailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)<br>
&gt; &gt; (<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&lt;=
mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&gt;)<br=
>
&gt; &gt; Subject: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Dear All:<br>
&gt; &gt; I couldn=E2=80=99t attend the Prague meeting, but luckily Dan was=
 able to present<br>
&gt; my slides on =E2=80=9CSelf-Managed Networks with Fault Management Hier=
archy=E2=80=9D.<br>
&gt; The feedback was to position the work in the ANIMA WG scope and<br>
&gt; framework.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; ANIMA charter in =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et. al., A Reference Mode=
l for Autonomic<br>
&gt; Networking<br>
&gt; &gt; draft-behringer-anima-reference-model-03=E2=80=9D refers to =E2=
=80=9Cself-healing=E2=80=9D.<br>
&gt; RFC7575,=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et al.,=C2=A0 =C2=A0Autonomic Ne=
tworking: Definitions and<br>
&gt; Design Goals=E2=80=9D,=C2=A0 refers to =E2=80=9Cself-management=E2=80=
=9D. However, both documents do<br>
&gt; not=C2=A0 articulate fault management aspect of the self-management.=
=C2=A0 It is<br>
&gt; possible to interpret the fault management aspect of autonomic network=
s as<br>
&gt; part of =E2=80=9Cself-healing=E2=80=9D and therefore as part of the AN=
IMA charter.=C2=A0 In that<br>
&gt; case, the =E2=80=9CArchitectural Framework for Self-Managed Networks w=
ith Fault<br>
&gt; Management Hierarchy, draft-mtoy-anima-self-faultmang-framework-<br>
&gt; 00.txt=E2=80=9D contribution can target to fill that gap.=C2=A0 The co=
ntrol plane aspect of<br>
&gt; self-healing is addressed by =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et al., An Autonom=
ic Control<br>
&gt; Plane, draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane-03=E2=80=9D.=C2=
=A0 I believe these<br>
&gt; contributions are complementary to each other. I can try to address th=
at in<br>
&gt; the contribution.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Please let me know if you agree with me. If not, I suggest to mod=
ify the<br>
&gt; charter since without covering fault management aspect of the autonomi=
c<br>
&gt; networks, the concept of autonomic network will be incomplete.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; &gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; Anima mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima" rel=3D"norefer=
rer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Anima mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div class=
=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:&quot=
;Cambria&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Thank you very much for your time and
consideration.</span><p style=3D"text-align:justify"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,&quot;serif&quot=
;"><br></span></p>

<p style=3D"text-align:justify;line-height:normal"><span style=3D"font-size=
:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Yours sincerely,=
</span></p>

<p style=3D"line-height:normal;text-align:left"><span style=3D"font-size:12=
.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">P Radha Krishna Red=
dy, M.Sc, M.Tech,<br></span></p><p style=3D"line-height:normal;text-align:l=
eft"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,&quot;=
serif&quot;">Junior Researcher/Ph.D Student,</span></p><p style=3D"line-hei=
ght:normal;text-align:left"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Cambria&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">COPE LABS, Universidade Lusofona, Lisbo=
a - Portugal.<br></span></p>

Author of: Security Issues of Cloud Computing over General &amp; IT Sector<=
br>Mobile: +351923095671<br><a>www.prkreddy.webs.com</a> <br><a href=3D"htt=
p://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/" target=3D"_blank">http://pt.linkedi=
n.com/in/reddypallavali/</a><br></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>

--047d7bae4932ad68e90522210411--


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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: "reddy.pallavali@ulusofona.pt" <reddy.pallavali@ulusofona.pt>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: Laurent Ciavaglia <Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>
Thread-Topic: Section 8 of reference draft
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Subject: [Anima] Section 8 of reference draft
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Laurent,=20

You provided the text for section 8. At the last IETF, Sheng suggested (str=
ongly) we focus this reference draft on the items that are in the current c=
harter.=20

One way to deal with this restriction is to focus the text in section 8 to =
a couple of high level paragraphs, just explaining that and why such a func=
tion is needed (later on). And take the details out into a separate draft.=
=20

John is thinking about doing the same thing for his sections, for the same =
reason.=20

Thoughts?=20
Michael


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From: Reddy Pallavali <f80077@ulusofona.pt>
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Many thanks for your kind reply,

Recently i joined in IETF - ANIMA group, so i do not know about IETF -
Yokohama; I will look into that.

Since, the networks are fully distributed, asynchronous, heterogeneous and
dynamic, as i understood.

Consensus relay convergence time, robustness, and fault-tolerance against
failures (e.g. termination, validation, integrity and agreement).

For instance, in ACP, the autonomic functions have to fulfill their
individual goals and also must cooperate their behaviour towards global
goal of the entire network. Meaning that autonomic functions such as,
energy efficiency, load balancing, scalability, availability conflicts with
each other based on users mobility. The energy efficiency function
conflicts with availability and mobility; also with load balancing; since
adaptively micro, macro, and pico cells have to adjust their
functionalities in the mean time have to serve all its objects under their
signals. So, there is a need of coordinated function (consensus state),
that maximizes individual and global goals by reducing conflicts between
them.

We have Swarm and Artificial Intelligence techniques to reach consensus
state in a dynamic situation, since they will learn the past and anticipate
the future by prediction.

I hope it works better for bottom-up approach, as you mentioned this groups
focus is also bottom-up.





On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:27 AM, Michael Behringer (mbehring) <
mbehring@cisco.com> wrote:

> Hi Reddy,
>
>
>
> Thanks for chiming in!  Nice to get some fresh view on our work.
>
>
>
> I=E2=80=99m not sure consensus is =E2=80=9Cinstead=E2=80=9D of synchronis=
ation, I think those are
> two different things. Synchronisation just keeps the state on some device=
s
> in sync, consensus is to me a specific form of negotiation.
>
>
>
> In this working group we=E2=80=99re very focused on a bottom-up approach,=
 i.e.,
> first understand small building blocks and how we can use them, later plu=
g
> them together in a wider framework. The approach is use-case driven, in
> other words, for everything we do we=E2=80=99d like a clear example on ho=
w this
> would be used in a running network.
>
>
>
> Can you give us an example on how consensus could be used in today=E2=80=
=99s
> networks? The simpler the example, the better. We are looking to understa=
nd
> how a network function would use consensus in a concrete situation.
>
>
>
> Once we understand the use case, we can see how and where to bring it in.
>
>
>
> Will you be at the IETF in Yokohama? If so, we should meet and discuss.
>
>
>
> Michael
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Reddy Pallavali [mailto:f80077@ulusofona.pt]
> *Sent:* 15 October 2015 11:08
> *To:* Michael Behringer (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com>
> *Cc:* Toy, Mehmet <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>; Brian E Carpenter <
> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>; anima@ietf.org
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I am new to this mailing list, and junior researcher from COPELABS, Lisbo=
n.
>
> I have one suggestion when it comes to ACP toolkit - instead of using
> synchronization, can use consensus?
>
> Since, synchronization is more towards centralized "Coordinator initiate
> to agree on something (towards centralized), and others have to adjust
> their state".
>
> When it comes to consensus "individual neighbors come to global
> intelligence by simple communication rules (fully distributed), and
> majority opinion is valid".
>
> My PhD thesis area is on Consensus so, i can contribute this section.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 9:57 AM, Michael Behringer (mbehring) <
> mbehring@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> Toy, thanks for raising those questions. Obviously, we're not doing a goo=
d
> job yet in describing what the ACP is, and that needs to be fixed. And
> obviously, we all need the same view to progress further. So this is a ve=
ry
> important discussion, and I really welcome it.
>
> Before formalising better text, let me see whether we get agreement on th=
e
> fundamental idea.
>
> In my head, there are two layers: The ACP, and on top of that the
> Autonomic Functions:
>
> * The ACP is the "tool kit". It comprises various "mechanics", such as
> negotiation, synchronisation, discovery of various sorts, messaging, etc.
> Those are all based on a common addressing and naming concept.
>
> * Autonomic Functions use that tool kit to do something clever. In other
> words, the true autonomic "intelligence" sits on that level.
>
> There is *one* ACP, there are *many* autonomic functions on top.
>
> One way to decide to which layer something belongs is to ask: "is this (1=
)
> a generic functionality which many functions require, or is this (2) one
> specific function?". If the answer is (1), it belongs into the ACP, if (2=
)
> it belongs into an autonomic function.
>
> So, in this light, my understanding (!) of fault management is that this
> is an autonomic function, and would use common blocks of the underlying
> ACP. Conversely, it would not offer services to other autonomic functions
> on top. This is my way of thinking when I write "this is an autonomic
> function".  And I'm not 100% certain I understand what you're suggesting,
> so please chime in here! (And I haven't read your draft fully yet, sorry)
>
> Look at
> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-01.txt
> This draft describes "intelligence". In that case, a way to automatically
> manage address space. Sections 2.2 and 2.3 explain which parameters and
> information exchanges such a function would require. Sheng wrote this
> document to explain how an autonomic function would use a common ACP.
>
> Probably we should take some off-line time in Yokohama to discuss this in
> a small team?
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Toy, Mehmet
> > Sent: 15 October 2015 04:26
> > To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>; Michael Behringer
> > (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com>; anima@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
> >
> > Michael and Brian,
> > Per Toerless suggestion, I am including ANIMA group into the discussion=
.
> >
> > I re-read the "A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking" document and
> > I am not clear about the definitions.
> >
> > a)  In the "A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking", ACP is defined
> as
> > "The Autonomic Control Plane is the summary of all interactions of the
> > Autonomic Networking Infrastructure with other nodes and services.".
> >
> > b) Brian, you write as " The ACP is common infrastructure for all
> autonomic
> > functions.(The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of course.) The signalin=
g
> > protocol is also common infrastructure."
> >
> > Question: What is ACP? a or b or combination?
> >
> > c) Section 4 in the reference model document , "The Autonomic Networkin=
g
> > Infrastructure provides a layer of common  functionality across an
> Autonomic
> > Network.  It comprises "must implement" functions and services, as well
> as
> > extensions."
> > Question: What are the "must implement" functionalities?  How do you
> > define "must implement" functionalities?
> >
> > Thanks
> > Mehmet
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM
> > To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); Toy, Mehmet
> > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
> > chairs@tools.ietf.org'
> > Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks
> >
> > I agree with Michael. The ACP is common infrastructure for all autonomi=
c
> > functions.
> > (The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of course.) The signaling protocol
> is also
> > common infrastructure.
> >
> >    Brian
> > On 15/10/2015 05:43, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
> > > I would argue they are part of an autonomic function, which runs on
> top of
> > the ACP.
> > > There are really two different pieces here, and this is I think the
> confusion
> > here:
> > >
> > > -          The ACP is self-managing. It needs to do self-healing, and
> > automatically adapt to new situations. But to me, this isn=E2=80=99t fa=
ult
> management
> > or performance management as an operator understands it.
> > >
> > > -          The network has FM and PM function. Those could be (and
> should
> > be, imo) autonomic functions. Those run on top of the ACP.
> > > Bottom line: I=E2=80=99d like to keep the ACP itself as minimalistic =
and
> simple as we
> > possibly can. Functions like FM / PM belong into an autonomic function,
> IMO.
> > > What do you think?
> > > Michael
> > > From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
> > > Sent: 14 October 2015 18:30
> > > To: Michael Behringer (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com>
> > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com' <dromasca@avaya.com>;
> > 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'
> > > <jiangsheng@huawei.com>; 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org'
> > > <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
> > > <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
> > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Michael,
> > > Instead of answering the question as Yes or No, let me give examples =
to
> > see what makes sense.
> > > Let=E2=80=99s say in a data path, a router port is failed.  The route=
r
> generates an AIS
> > (Alarm Indication Signal) and the receiving  end generates RDI (remote
> > Defect Indicator).  Both messages are generated by the hardware, not by=
 a
> > software or ACP.   As a result of this failure,  there would be packet
> loss. The
> > hardware counts these losses, an ACP does not.
> > > For the FM and PM functions above, can we say they are part of an ACP=
?
> > > Thanks
> > > Mehmet
> > > From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:34 AM
> > > To: Toy, Mehmet
> > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
> > chairs@tools.ietf.org'; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
> > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Hi Toy,
> > > To understand better: To me, fault management *uses* the functions of
> > the AN infrastructure. It uses the ACP to communicate, maybe GRASP for
> > some signalling, might be influenced by Intent, etc. Right?  So to me,
> this is a
> > logical component of an autonomic network that sits on top of the AN
> > infrastructure.
> > > Do we agree?
> > > Michael
> > >
> > > From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
> > > Sent: 13 October 2015 23:46
> > > To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
> > > <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
> > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'
> > > <dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>;
> > > 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'
> > > <jiangsheng@huawei.com<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>>;
> > > 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org'
> > > <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>;
> > > 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
> > > <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>
> > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Michael,
> > > Appreciate the reply.
> > > FM is part of data plane and control plane (i.e. ANI in your diagram)=
.
> > > My plan is to add a short paragraph for now either to section 2 to
> expand
> > the description  of ANI or to section 4 to add a sub-section for Fault
> > Management.
> > >
> > > It is also possible too add a Performance Management section to
> describe
> > what types of measurements and where and how are used.  Although there
> > is a control feedback related measurement in the document, I don=E2=80=
=99t know
> if
> > it is adequate.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Mehmet
> > > From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 12:27 PM
> > > To: Toy, Mehmet
> > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
> > chairs@tools.ietf.org'; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
> > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Sorry for the delay, it=E2=80=99s very busy at the moment here.
> > > To me, fault management refers generally to faults on the data plane,
> ie for
> > user traffic. I see that happening at some point as an autonomic
> function (or
> > several, for different aspects). Would you agree? Or do you see that as=
 a
> > function inside the AN infrastructure?
> > > So my feeling is that function would reside on top of the
> infrastructure that
> > we=E2=80=99re currently defining. So, please have a look whether your t=
houghts
> can
> > be described as an autonomic function. I think they probably can.
> > > Then I suggest we do the same that we=E2=80=99re planning to do with =
the NMS
> > section, the model discussion, etc: Have a short paragraph describe the
> > overall topic briefly, and point to an external doc for now, i.e.,
> probably your
> > draft.
> > > If you agree, can you suggest where in the reference model you would
> add
> > a short paragraph about fault management, and I suppose we=E2=80=99d po=
int to
> your
> > draft, right?
> > > Michael
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
> > > Sent: 13 October 2015 03:53
> > > To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
> > > <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
> > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'
> > > <dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>;
> > > 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'
> > > <jiangsheng@huawei.com<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>>;
> > > 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org'
> > > <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>;
> > > 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
> > > <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>
> > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Mike,
> > > I am waiting for your response.
> > > Thanks
> > > Mehmet
> > >
> > > From: Toy, Mehmet
> > > Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 8:13 PM
> > > To: 'mbehring@cisco.com'
> > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
> > chairs@tools.ietf.org'; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
> > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Mike,
> > > I can send you some text to include in section 2 and 4 of  =E2=80=9CA=
 Reference
> > Model for Autonomic Networking,   draft-behringer-anima-reference-
> > model-03=E2=80=9D,  per Sheng=E2=80=99s suggestion.
> > > Should I just do that?
> > > Thanks
> > > Mehmet
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Toy, Mehmet
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 7:53 AM
> > > To: 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org';
> > 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'; 'mbehring@cisco.com'
> > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'
> > > Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Sheng,
> > > Appreciate a quick response.
> > > I will work on your suggestion.
> > > Mehmet
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 06:08 AM Eastern Standard Time
> > > To: Toy, Mehmet;
> > > anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>
> > > <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>;
> > > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
> > > <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>;
> > > mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>
> > > <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
> > > Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
> > > (dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>)
> > > <dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>
> > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Hi, Toy,
> > > First of all, for my understanding, your work is in the scope of the =
WG
> > charter. However, we do not have work item or milestone for it. It look=
s
> like
> > an upper-layer autonomic service agent for me. In our plan, autonomic
> > service agents are mainly for the next period, which is after re-charte=
r
> (this is
> > the same with your suggestion of modifying the charter, but it cannot
> > happen until we deliver the current milestones). For now, the best may =
be
> > try to add some description, maybe mainly abstracted functionality, int=
o
> the
> > reference model document.
> > > Best regards,
> > > Sheng
> > >
> > > From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 1:14 AM
> > > To: anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>;
> > > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>;
> > > mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>
> > > Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
> > > (dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>)
> > > Subject: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Dear All:
> > > I couldn=E2=80=99t attend the Prague meeting, but luckily Dan was abl=
e to
> present
> > my slides on =E2=80=9CSelf-Managed Networks with Fault Management Hiera=
rchy=E2=80=9D.
> > The feedback was to position the work in the ANIMA WG scope and
> > framework.
> > >
> > > ANIMA charter in =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et. al., A Reference Model fo=
r
> Autonomic
> > Networking
> > > draft-behringer-anima-reference-model-03=E2=80=9D refers to =E2=80=9C=
self-healing=E2=80=9D.
> > RFC7575,  =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et al.,   Autonomic Networking: Defini=
tions and
> > Design Goals=E2=80=9D,  refers to =E2=80=9Cself-management=E2=80=9D. Ho=
wever, both documents do
> > not  articulate fault management aspect of the self-management.  It is
> > possible to interpret the fault management aspect of autonomic networks
> as
> > part of =E2=80=9Cself-healing=E2=80=9D and therefore as part of the ANI=
MA charter.  In
> that
> > case, the =E2=80=9CArchitectural Framework for Self-Managed Networks wi=
th Fault
> > Management Hierarchy, draft-mtoy-anima-self-faultmang-framework-
> > 00.txt=E2=80=9D contribution can target to fill that gap.  The control =
plane
> aspect of
> > self-healing is addressed by =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et al., An Autonomi=
c Control
> > Plane, draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane-03=E2=80=9D.  I be=
lieve
> these
> > contributions are complementary to each other. I can try to address tha=
t
> in
> > the contribution.
> > >
> > > Please let me know if you agree with me. If not, I suggest to modify
> the
> > charter since without covering fault management aspect of the autonomic
> > networks, the concept of autonomic network will be incomplete.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Mehmet
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Anima mailing list
> > Anima@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Thank you very much for your time and consideration.
>
>
>
> Yours sincerely,
>
> P Radha Krishna Reddy, M.Sc, M.Tech,
>
> Junior Researcher/Ph.D Student,
>
> COPE LABS, Universidade Lusofona, Lisboa - Portugal.
>
> Author of: Security Issues of Cloud Computing over General & IT Sector
> Mobile: +351923095671
> www.prkreddy.webs.com
> http://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/
>



--=20
Thank you very much for your time and consideration.


Yours sincerely,

P Radha Krishna Reddy, M.Sc, M.Tech,

Junior Researcher/Ph.D Student,

COPE LABS, Universidade Lusofona, Lisboa - Portugal.
Author of: Security Issues of Cloud Computing over General & IT Sector
Mobile: +351923095671
www.prkreddy.webs.com
http://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/

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Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div>Many thanks for your kind reply,<br><br></d=
iv><div>Recently i joined in IETF - ANIMA group, so i do not know about IET=
F - Yokohama; I will look into that.<br></div><div><br></div>Since, the net=
works are fully distributed, asynchronous, heterogeneous and dynamic, as i =
understood.<br><br>Consensus relay convergence time,=C2=A0robustness, and f=
ault-tolerance=20
against failures (e.g. termination, validation, integrity and=20
agreement).<br><br></div>For instance, in ACP, the autonomic functions have=
 to fulfill their individual goals and also must cooperate their behaviour =
towards global goal of the entire network. Meaning that autonomic functions=
 such as, energy efficiency, load balancing, scalability, availability conf=
licts with each other based on users mobility. The energy efficiency functi=
on conflicts with availability and mobility; also with load balancing; sinc=
e adaptively micro, macro, and pico cells have to adjust their functionalit=
ies in the mean time have to serve all its objects under their signals. So,=
 there is a need of coordinated function (consensus state), that maximizes =
individual and global goals by reducing conflicts between them. <br><br></d=
iv><div>We have Swarm and Artificial Intelligence techniques to reach conse=
nsus state in a dynamic situation, since they will learn the past and antic=
ipate the future by prediction. <br></div><div><br></div><div>I hope it wor=
ks better for bottom-up approach, as you mentioned this groups focus is als=
o bottom-up. <br></div><div><br><div class=3D"">
</div><a id=3D"magicparlabel-500">


</a></div><div><br></div><div><br><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra=
"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:27 AM, Michael =
Behringer (mbehring) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco=
.com" target=3D"_blank">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"EN-GB">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Calibri" color=3D"#1f497d" size=3D"2">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d">Hi Reddy,
<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Calibri" color=3D"#1f497d" size=3D"2">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Calibri" color=3D"#1f497d" size=3D"2">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d">Thanks for chiming in!=C2=A0 Nice to get some fresh view on =
our work.
<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Calibri" color=3D"#1f497d" size=3D"2">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Calibri" color=3D"#1f497d" size=3D"2">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d">I=E2=80=99m not sure consensus is =E2=80=9Cinstead=E2=80=9D =
of synchronisation, I think those are two different
 things. Synchronisation just keeps the state on some devices in sync, cons=
ensus is to me a specific form of negotiation.
<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Calibri" color=3D"#1f497d" size=3D"2">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Calibri" color=3D"#1f497d" size=3D"2">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d">In this working group we=E2=80=99re very focused on a bottom=
-up approach, i.e., first understand
 small building blocks and how we can use them, later plug them together in=
 a wider framework. The approach is use-case driven, in other words, for ev=
erything we do we=E2=80=99d like a clear example on how this would be used =
in a running network.
<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Calibri" color=3D"#1f497d" size=3D"2">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Calibri" color=3D"#1f497d" size=3D"2">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d">Can you give us an example on how consensus could be used in=
 today=E2=80=99s networks? The simpler
 the example, the better. We are looking to understand how a network functi=
on would use consensus in a concrete situation.
<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Calibri" color=3D"#1f497d" size=3D"2">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Calibri" color=3D"#1f497d" size=3D"2">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d">Once we understand the use case, we can see how and where to=
 bring it in.
<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Calibri" color=3D"#1f497d" size=3D"2">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Calibri" color=3D"#1f497d" size=3D"2">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d">Will you be at the IETF in Yokohama? If so, we should meet a=
nd discuss.
<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Calibri" color=3D"#1f497d" size=3D"2">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Calibri" color=3D"#1f497d" size=3D"2">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d">Michael<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Calibri" color=3D"#1f497d" size=3D"2">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Calibri" color=3D"#1f497d" size=3D"2">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></font></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><font face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;font-weight:bol=
d" lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></font></b><font face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"=
 lang=3D"EN-US">
 Reddy Pallavali [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:f80077@ulusofona.pt" target=3D"_=
blank">f80077@ulusofona.pt</a>] <br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> 15 October 2015 11:08<=
span class=3D""><br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> Michael Behringer (mbehr=
ing) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">mbehring@c=
isco.com</a>&gt;<br>
</span><b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b> Toy, Mehmet &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com" target=3D"_blank">Mehmet_Toy=
@cable.comcast.com</a>&gt;; Brian E Carpenter &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e=
.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
; <a href=3D"mailto:anima@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">anima@ietf.org</a></s=
pan></font></p><div><div class=3D"h5"><font face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><br=
>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Anima] Self-Ma=
naged Networks<u></u><u></u></font></div></div><p></p>
</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font face=3D"Times N=
ew Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Hi,<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></font></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font face=3D"Times N=
ew Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">I am new to this mail=
ing list, and junior researcher from COPELABS, Lisbon.<u></u><u></u></span>=
</font></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font face=3D"Times N=
ew Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">I have one suggestion=
 when it comes to ACP toolkit - instead of using synchronization, can use c=
onsensus?<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Since, synchronization is more towards centralized &=
quot;Coordinator initiate to agree on something (towards centralized), and =
others have to adjust their state&quot;.
<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font face=3D"Times N=
ew Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">When it comes to cons=
ensus &quot;individual neighbors come to global intelligence by simple comm=
unication rules (fully distributed), and majority
 opinion is valid&quot;. <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font face=3D"Times N=
ew Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">My PhD thesis area is=
 on Consensus so, i can contribute this section.<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt">On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 9:57 AM, Michael Behringer (=
mbehring) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">mbehr=
ing@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Toy, thanks for raising those questions. Obviously, =
we&#39;re not doing a good job yet in describing what the ACP is, and that =
needs to be fixed. And obviously, we all need
 the same view to progress further. So this is a very important discussion,=
 and I really welcome it.<br>
<br>
Before formalising better text, let me see whether we get agreement on the =
fundamental idea.<br>
<br>
In my head, there are two layers: The ACP, and on top of that the Autonomic=
 Functions:<br>
<br>
* The ACP is the &quot;tool kit&quot;. It comprises various &quot;mechanics=
&quot;, such as negotiation, synchronisation, discovery of various sorts, m=
essaging, etc. Those are all based on a common addressing and naming concep=
t.<br>
<br>
* Autonomic Functions use that tool kit to do something clever. In other wo=
rds, the true autonomic &quot;intelligence&quot; sits on that level.<br>
<br>
There is *one* ACP, there are *many* autonomic functions on top.<br>
<br>
One way to decide to which layer something belongs is to ask: &quot;is this=
 (1) a generic functionality which many functions require, or is this (2) o=
ne specific function?&quot;. If the answer is (1), it belongs into the ACP,=
 if (2) it belongs into an autonomic function.<br>
<br>
So, in this light, my understanding (!) of fault management is that this is=
 an autonomic function, and would use common blocks of the underlying ACP. =
Conversely, it would not offer services to other autonomic functions on top=
. This is my way of thinking when
 I write &quot;this is an autonomic function&quot;.=C2=A0 And I&#39;m not 1=
00% certain I understand what you&#39;re suggesting, so please chime in her=
e! (And I haven&#39;t read your draft fully yet, sorry)<br>
<br>
Look at <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-manage=
ment-01.txt" target=3D"_blank">
http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-01.txt</a><br>
This draft describes &quot;intelligence&quot;. In that case, a way to autom=
atically manage address space. Sections 2.2 and 2.3 explain which parameter=
s and information exchanges such a function would require. Sheng wrote this=
 document to explain how an autonomic function
 would use a common ACP.<br>
<br>
Probably we should take some off-line time in Yokohama to discuss this in a=
 small team?<br>
<font color=3D"#888888"><span style=3D"color:#888888"><br>
<span>Michael</span></span></font><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><br>
<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Anima [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">anima-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Toy, Mehmet<br>
&gt; Sent: 15 October 2015 04:26<br>
&gt; To: Brian E Carpenter &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Michael Behringer=
<br>
&gt; (mbehring) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:anima@ietf.org" target=3D"_b=
lank">
anima@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Michael and Brian,<br>
&gt; Per Toerless suggestion, I am including ANIMA group into the discussio=
n.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I re-read the &quot;A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking&quot; d=
ocument and<br>
&gt; I am not clear about the definitions.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; a)=C2=A0 In the &quot;A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking&quot;=
, ACP is defined as<br>
&gt; &quot;The Autonomic Control Plane is the summary of all interactions o=
f the<br>
&gt; Autonomic Networking Infrastructure with other nodes and services.&quo=
t;.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; b) Brian, you write as &quot; The ACP is common infrastructure for all=
 autonomic<br>
&gt; functions.(The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of course.) The signali=
ng<br>
&gt; protocol is also common infrastructure.&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Question: What is ACP? a or b or combination?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; c) Section 4 in the reference model document , &quot;The Autonomic Net=
working<br>
&gt; Infrastructure provides a layer of common=C2=A0 functionality across a=
n Autonomic<br>
&gt; Network.=C2=A0 It comprises &quot;must implement&quot; functions and s=
ervices, as well as<br>
&gt; extensions.&quot;<br>
&gt; Question: What are the &quot;must implement&quot; functionalities?=C2=
=A0 How do you<br>
&gt; define &quot;must implement&quot; functionalities?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thanks<br>
&gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gm=
ail.com" target=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>]<br>
&gt; Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM<br>
&gt; To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); Toy, Mehmet<br>
&gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_blank">droma=
sca@avaya.com</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>&#39;; &#39;anima-<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">chairs@tool=
s.ietf.org</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I agree with Michael. The ACP is common infrastructure for all autonom=
ic<br>
&gt; functions.<br>
&gt; (The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of course.) The signaling protoco=
l is also<br>
&gt; common infrastructure.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian<br>
&gt; On 15/10/2015 05:43, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; I would argue they are part of an autonomic function, which runs =
on top of<br>
&gt; the ACP.<br>
&gt; &gt; There are really two different pieces here, and this is I think t=
he confusion<br>
&gt; here:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; -=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The ACP is self-managing. It =
needs to do self-healing, and<br>
&gt; automatically adapt to new situations. But to me, this isn=E2=80=99t f=
ault management<br>
&gt; or performance management as an operator understands it.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; -=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The network has FM and PM fun=
ction. Those could be (and should<br>
&gt; be, imo) autonomic functions. Those run on top of the ACP.<br>
&gt; &gt; Bottom line: I=E2=80=99d like to keep the ACP itself as minimalis=
tic and simple as we<br>
&gt; possibly can. Functions like FM / PM belong into an autonomic function=
, IMO.<br>
&gt; &gt; What do you think?<br>
&gt; &gt; Michael<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comc=
ast.com" target=3D"_blank">Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: 14 October 2015 18:30<br>
&gt; &gt; To: Michael Behringer (mbehring) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@c=
isco.com" target=3D"_blank">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_blank">=
dromasca@avaya.com</a>&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&gt;;<br>
&gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">jiangs=
heng@huawei.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">ji=
angsheng@huawei.com</a>&gt;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf=
.org" target=3D"_blank">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&gt;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.car=
penter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&#39;<br=
>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Michael,<br>
&gt; &gt; Instead of answering the question as Yes or No, let me give examp=
les to<br>
&gt; see what makes sense.<br>
&gt; &gt; Let=E2=80=99s say in a data path, a router port is failed.=C2=A0 =
The router generates an AIS<br>
&gt; (Alarm Indication Signal) and the receiving=C2=A0 end generates RDI (r=
emote<br>
&gt; Defect Indicator).=C2=A0 Both messages are generated by the hardware, =
not by a<br>
&gt; software or ACP.=C2=A0 =C2=A0As a result of this failure,=C2=A0 there =
would be packet loss. The<br>
&gt; hardware counts these losses, an ACP does not.<br>
&gt; &gt; For the FM and PM functions above, can we say they are part of an=
 ACP?<br>
&gt; &gt; Thanks<br>
&gt; &gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbeh=
ring@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">mbehring@cisco.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:34 AM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: Toy, Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_blank">=
dromasca@avaya.com</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" =
target=3D"_blank">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>&#39;; &#39;anima-<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">chairs@tool=
s.ietf.org</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Hi Toy,<br>
&gt; &gt; To understand better: To me, fault management *uses* the function=
s of<br>
&gt; the AN infrastructure. It uses the ACP to communicate, maybe GRASP for=
<br>
&gt; some signalling, might be influenced by Intent, etc. Right?=C2=A0 So t=
o me, this is a<br>
&gt; logical component of an autonomic network that sits on top of the AN<b=
r>
&gt; infrastructure.<br>
&gt; &gt; Do we agree?<br>
&gt; &gt; Michael<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comc=
ast.com" target=3D"_blank">Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: 13 October 2015 23:46<br>
&gt; &gt; To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">mbehr=
ing@cisco.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D=
"_blank">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_blank">=
dromasca@avaya.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_blank">droma=
sca@avaya.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D=
"_blank">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">j=
iangsheng@huawei.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">ji=
angsheng@huawei.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" =
target=3D"_blank">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chair=
s@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;=
;<br>
&gt; &gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.car=
penter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;=
<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Michael,<br>
&gt; &gt; Appreciate the reply.<br>
&gt; &gt; FM is part of data plane and control plane (i.e. ANI in your diag=
ram).<br>
&gt; &gt; My plan is to add a short paragraph for now either to section 2 t=
o expand<br>
&gt; the description=C2=A0 of ANI or to section 4 to add a sub-section for =
Fault<br>
&gt; Management.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; It is also possible too add a Performance Management section to d=
escribe<br>
&gt; what types of measurements and where and how are used.=C2=A0 Although =
there<br>
&gt; is a control feedback related measurement in the document, I don=E2=80=
=99t know if<br>
&gt; it is adequate.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; &gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbeh=
ring@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">mbehring@cisco.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 12:27 PM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: Toy, Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_blank">=
dromasca@avaya.com</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" =
target=3D"_blank">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>&#39;; &#39;anima-<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">chairs@tool=
s.ietf.org</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Sorry for the delay, it=E2=80=99s very busy at the moment here.<b=
r>
&gt; &gt; To me, fault management refers generally to faults on the data pl=
ane, ie for<br>
&gt; user traffic. I see that happening at some point as an autonomic funct=
ion (or<br>
&gt; several, for different aspects). Would you agree? Or do you see that a=
s a<br>
&gt; function inside the AN infrastructure?<br>
&gt; &gt; So my feeling is that function would reside on top of the infrast=
ructure that<br>
&gt; we=E2=80=99re currently defining. So, please have a look whether your =
thoughts can<br>
&gt; be described as an autonomic function. I think they probably can.<br>
&gt; &gt; Then I suggest we do the same that we=E2=80=99re planning to do w=
ith the NMS<br>
&gt; section, the model discussion, etc: Have a short paragraph describe th=
e<br>
&gt; overall topic briefly, and point to an external doc for now, i.e., pro=
bably your<br>
&gt; draft.<br>
&gt; &gt; If you agree, can you suggest where in the reference model you wo=
uld add<br>
&gt; a short paragraph about fault management, and I suppose we=E2=80=99d p=
oint to your<br>
&gt; draft, right?<br>
&gt; &gt; Michael<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comc=
ast.com" target=3D"_blank">Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: 13 October 2015 03:53<br>
&gt; &gt; To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">mbehr=
ing@cisco.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D=
"_blank">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_blank">=
dromasca@avaya.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_blank">droma=
sca@avaya.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D=
"_blank">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">j=
iangsheng@huawei.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">ji=
angsheng@huawei.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" =
target=3D"_blank">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chair=
s@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;=
;<br>
&gt; &gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.car=
penter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;=
<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Mike,<br>
&gt; &gt; I am waiting for your response.<br>
&gt; &gt; Thanks<br>
&gt; &gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Toy, Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 8:13 PM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">=
mbehring@cisco.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_blank">=
dromasca@avaya.com</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" =
target=3D"_blank">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>&#39;; &#39;anima-<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">chairs@tool=
s.ietf.org</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Mike,<br>
&gt; &gt; I can send you some text to include in section 2 and 4 of=C2=A0 =
=E2=80=9CA Reference<br>
&gt; Model for Autonomic Networking,=C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-behringer-anima-refe=
rence-<br>
&gt; model-03=E2=80=9D,=C2=A0 per Sheng=E2=80=99s suggestion.<br>
&gt; &gt; Should I just do that?<br>
&gt; &gt; Thanks<br>
&gt; &gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Toy, Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 7:53 AM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tool=
s.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&#39;;<br>
&gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">=
brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco=
.com" target=3D"_blank">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_blank">=
dromasca@avaya.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Sheng,<br>
&gt; &gt; Appreciate a quick response.<br>
&gt; &gt; I will work on your suggestion.<br>
&gt; &gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com=
" target=3D"_blank">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 06:08 AM Eastern Standard Time<b=
r>
&gt; &gt; To: Toy, Mehmet;<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@to=
ols.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chair=
s@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;=
;<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">=
brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpent=
er@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.car=
penter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;=
;<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">mbehring@=
cisco.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">mbehr=
ing@cisco.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D=
"_blank">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)<br>
&gt; &gt; (<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_blank">dromasca=
@avaya.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&gt;)<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_blank">droma=
sca@avaya.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D=
"_blank">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Hi, Toy,<br>
&gt; &gt; First of all, for my understanding, your work is in the scope of =
the WG<br>
&gt; charter. However, we do not have work item or milestone for it. It loo=
ks like<br>
&gt; an upper-layer autonomic service agent for me. In our plan, autonomic<=
br>
&gt; service agents are mainly for the next period, which is after re-chart=
er (this is<br>
&gt; the same with your suggestion of modifying the charter, but it cannot<=
br>
&gt; happen until we deliver the current milestones). For now, the best may=
 be<br>
&gt; try to add some description, maybe mainly abstracted functionality, in=
to the<br>
&gt; reference model document.<br>
&gt; &gt; Best regards,<br>
&gt; &gt; Sheng<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comc=
ast.com" target=3D"_blank">Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 1:14 AM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chair=
s@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&gt;;<br=
>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">=
brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpent=
er@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">mbehring@=
cisco.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)<br>
&gt; &gt; (<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_blank">dromasca=
@avaya.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&gt;)<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Dear All:<br>
&gt; &gt; I couldn=E2=80=99t attend the Prague meeting, but luckily Dan was=
 able to present<br>
&gt; my slides on =E2=80=9CSelf-Managed Networks with Fault Management Hier=
archy=E2=80=9D.<br>
&gt; The feedback was to position the work in the ANIMA WG scope and<br>
&gt; framework.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; ANIMA charter in =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et. al., A Reference Mode=
l for Autonomic<br>
&gt; Networking<br>
&gt; &gt; draft-behringer-anima-reference-model-03=E2=80=9D refers to =E2=
=80=9Cself-healing=E2=80=9D.<br>
&gt; RFC7575,=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et al.,=C2=A0 =C2=A0Autonomic Ne=
tworking: Definitions and<br>
&gt; Design Goals=E2=80=9D,=C2=A0 refers to =E2=80=9Cself-management=E2=80=
=9D. However, both documents do<br>
&gt; not=C2=A0 articulate fault management aspect of the self-management.=
=C2=A0 It is<br>
&gt; possible to interpret the fault management aspect of autonomic network=
s as<br>
&gt; part of =E2=80=9Cself-healing=E2=80=9D and therefore as part of the AN=
IMA charter.=C2=A0 In that<br>
&gt; case, the =E2=80=9CArchitectural Framework for Self-Managed Networks w=
ith Fault<br>
&gt; Management Hierarchy, draft-mtoy-anima-self-faultmang-framework-<br>
&gt; 00.txt=E2=80=9D contribution can target to fill that gap.=C2=A0 The co=
ntrol plane aspect of<br>
&gt; self-healing is addressed by =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et al., An Autonom=
ic Control<br>
&gt; Plane, draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane-03=E2=80=9D.=C2=
=A0 I believe these<br>
&gt; contributions are complementary to each other. I can try to address th=
at in<br>
&gt; the contribution.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Please let me know if you agree with me. If not, I suggest to mod=
ify the<br>
&gt; charter since without covering fault management aspect of the autonomi=
c<br>
&gt; networks, the concept of autonomic network will be incomplete.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; &gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; Anima mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Anima@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Anima@ietf.org</a>=
<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Anima mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Anima@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Anima@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a><u></u><u></u></span></font><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><br>
<br clear=3D"all">
<br>
-- <u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Cambria" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,serif">Thank you very much fo=
r your time and consideration.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p style=3D"text-align:justify"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><=
span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></font></p>
<p style=3D"text-align:justify"><font face=3D"Cambria" size=3D"3"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,serif">Yours sincere=
ly,</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><font face=3D"Cambria" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Cambria&quot;,serif">P Radha Krishna Reddy, M.Sc, M.Tech,</span=
></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><font face=3D"Cambria" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Cambria&quot;,serif">Junior Researcher/Ph.D Student,</span></fo=
nt><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><font face=3D"Cambria" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Cambria&quot;,serif">COPE LABS, Universidade Lusofona, Lisboa -=
 Portugal.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Author of: Security Issues of Cloud Computing over G=
eneral &amp; IT Sector<br>
Mobile: <a href=3D"tel:%2B351923095671" value=3D"+351923095671" target=3D"_=
blank">+351923095671</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://www.prkreddy.webs.com" target=3D"_blank">www.prkreddy.web=
s.com</a> <br>
<a href=3D"http://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/" target=3D"_blank">htt=
p://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/</a><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail_sig=
nature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><span =
style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,=
&quot;serif&quot;">Thank you very much for your time and
consideration.</span><p style=3D"text-align:justify"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,&quot;serif&quot=
;"><br></span></p>

<p style=3D"text-align:justify;line-height:normal"><span style=3D"font-size=
:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Yours sincerely,=
</span></p>

<p style=3D"line-height:normal;text-align:left"><span style=3D"font-size:12=
.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">P Radha Krishna Red=
dy, M.Sc, M.Tech,<br></span></p><p style=3D"line-height:normal;text-align:l=
eft"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,&quot;=
serif&quot;">Junior Researcher/Ph.D Student,</span></p><p style=3D"line-hei=
ght:normal;text-align:left"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Cambria&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">COPE LABS, Universidade Lusofona, Lisbo=
a - Portugal.<br></span></p>

Author of: Security Issues of Cloud Computing over General &amp; IT Sector<=
br>Mobile: +351923095671<br><a>www.prkreddy.webs.com</a> <br><a href=3D"htt=
p://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/" target=3D"_blank">http://pt.linkedi=
n.com/in/reddypallavali/</a><br></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>

--089e0112c50c78d15e052221c9b5--


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To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>, "Toy, Mehmet" <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
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From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
Message-ID: <56202D54.6060208@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 11:48:52 +1300
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
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On 15/10/2015 21:57, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
> Toy, thanks for raising those questions. Obviously, we're not doing a g=
ood job yet in describing what the ACP is, and that needs to be fixed. An=
d obviously, we all need the same view to progress further. So this is a =
very important discussion, and I really welcome it.=20
>=20
> Before formalising better text, let me see whether we get agreement on =
the fundamental idea.=20
>=20
> In my head, there are two layers: The ACP, and on top of that the Auton=
omic Functions:=20
>=20
> * The ACP is the "tool kit". It comprises various "mechanics", such as =
negotiation, synchronisation, discovery of various sorts, messaging, etc.=
 Those are all based on a common addressing and naming concept.=20

Well, hold on. The ACP is the substrate for GRASP, but GRASP is defined s=
o that in theory
it could run without the ACP (e.g. running over TLS). ACP+GRASP+etc =3D A=
NI (AN infrastructure).

>=20
> * Autonomic Functions use that tool kit to do something clever. In othe=
r words, the true autonomic "intelligence" sits on that level.=20
>=20
> There is *one* ACP, there are *many* autonomic functions on top.=20

Indeed, and fault management mechanisms are certainly important ones.

   Brian

>=20
> One way to decide to which layer something belongs is to ask: "is this =
(1) a generic functionality which many functions require, or is this (2) =
one specific function?". If the answer is (1), it belongs into the ACP, i=
f (2) it belongs into an autonomic function.=20
>=20
> So, in this light, my understanding (!) of fault management is that thi=
s is an autonomic function, and would use common blocks of the underlying=
 ACP. Conversely, it would not offer services to other autonomic function=
s on top. This is my way of thinking when I write "this is an autonomic f=
unction".  And I'm not 100% certain I understand what you're suggesting, =
so please chime in here! (And I haven't read your draft fully yet, sorry)=

>=20
> Look at http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-01=
=2Etxt
> This draft describes "intelligence". In that case, a way to automatical=
ly manage address space. Sections 2.2 and 2.3 explain which parameters an=
d information exchanges such a function would require. Sheng wrote this d=
ocument to explain how an autonomic function would use a common ACP.=20
>=20
> Probably we should take some off-line time in Yokohama to discuss this =
in a small team?=20
>=20
> Michael
>=20
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Toy, Mehmet
>> Sent: 15 October 2015 04:26
>> To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>; Michael Behringer=

>> (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com>; anima@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
>>
>> Michael and Brian,
>> Per Toerless suggestion, I am including ANIMA group into the discussio=
n.
>>
>> I re-read the "A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking" document an=
d
>> I am not clear about the definitions.
>>
>> a)  In the "A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking", ACP is define=
d as
>> "The Autonomic Control Plane is the summary of all interactions of the=

>> Autonomic Networking Infrastructure with other nodes and services.".
>>
>> b) Brian, you write as " The ACP is common infrastructure for all auto=
nomic
>> functions.(The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of course.) The signali=
ng
>> protocol is also common infrastructure."
>>
>> Question: What is ACP? a or b or combination?
>>
>> c) Section 4 in the reference model document , "The Autonomic Networki=
ng
>> Infrastructure provides a layer of common  functionality across an Aut=
onomic
>> Network.  It comprises "must implement" functions and services, as wel=
l as
>> extensions."
>> Question: What are the "must implement" functionalities?  How do you
>> define "must implement" functionalities?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Mehmet
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM
>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); Toy, Mehmet
>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
>> chairs@tools.ietf.org'
>> Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks
>>
>> I agree with Michael. The ACP is common infrastructure for all autonom=
ic
>> functions.
>> (The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of course.) The signaling protoco=
l is also
>> common infrastructure.
>>
>>    Brian
>> On 15/10/2015 05:43, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>>> I would argue they are part of an autonomic function, which runs on t=
op of
>> the ACP.
>>> There are really two different pieces here, and this is I think the c=
onfusion
>> here:
>>>
>>> -          The ACP is self-managing. It needs to do self-healing, and=

>> automatically adapt to new situations. But to me, this isn=E2=80=99t f=
ault management
>> or performance management as an operator understands it.
>>>
>>> -          The network has FM and PM function. Those could be (and sh=
ould
>> be, imo) autonomic functions. Those run on top of the ACP.
>>> Bottom line: I=E2=80=99d like to keep the ACP itself as minimalistic =
and simple as we
>> possibly can. Functions like FM / PM belong into an autonomic function=
, IMO.
>>> What do you think?
>>> Michael
>>> From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
>>> Sent: 14 October 2015 18:30
>>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com>
>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com' <dromasca@avaya.com>;
>> 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'
>>> <jiangsheng@huawei.com>; 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org'
>>> <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
>>> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>
>>> Michael,
>>> Instead of answering the question as Yes or No, let me give examples =
to
>> see what makes sense.
>>> Let=E2=80=99s say in a data path, a router port is failed.  The route=
r generates an AIS
>> (Alarm Indication Signal) and the receiving  end generates RDI (remote=

>> Defect Indicator).  Both messages are generated by the hardware, not b=
y a
>> software or ACP.   As a result of this failure,  there would be packet=
 loss. The
>> hardware counts these losses, an ACP does not.
>>> For the FM and PM functions above, can we say they are part of an ACP=
?
>>> Thanks
>>> Mehmet
>>> From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com]
>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:34 AM
>>> To: Toy, Mehmet
>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
>> chairs@tools.ietf.org'; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>
>>> Hi Toy,
>>> To understand better: To me, fault management *uses* the functions of=

>> the AN infrastructure. It uses the ACP to communicate, maybe GRASP for=

>> some signalling, might be influenced by Intent, etc. Right?  So to me,=
 this is a
>> logical component of an autonomic network that sits on top of the AN
>> infrastructure.
>>> Do we agree?
>>> Michael
>>>
>>> From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
>>> Sent: 13 October 2015 23:46
>>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
>>> <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'
>>> <dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>;
>>> 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'
>>> <jiangsheng@huawei.com<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>>;
>>> 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org'
>>> <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>;
>>> 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
>>> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>
>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>
>>> Michael,
>>> Appreciate the reply.
>>> FM is part of data plane and control plane (i.e. ANI in your diagram)=
=2E
>>> My plan is to add a short paragraph for now either to section 2 to ex=
pand
>> the description  of ANI or to section 4 to add a sub-section for Fault=

>> Management.
>>>
>>> It is also possible too add a Performance Management section to descr=
ibe
>> what types of measurements and where and how are used.  Although there=

>> is a control feedback related measurement in the document, I don=E2=80=
=99t know if
>> it is adequate.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Mehmet
>>> From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 12:27 PM
>>> To: Toy, Mehmet
>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
>> chairs@tools.ietf.org'; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>
>>> Sorry for the delay, it=E2=80=99s very busy at the moment here.
>>> To me, fault management refers generally to faults on the data plane,=
 ie for
>> user traffic. I see that happening at some point as an autonomic funct=
ion (or
>> several, for different aspects). Would you agree? Or do you see that a=
s a
>> function inside the AN infrastructure?
>>> So my feeling is that function would reside on top of the infrastruct=
ure that
>> we=E2=80=99re currently defining. So, please have a look whether your =
thoughts can
>> be described as an autonomic function. I think they probably can.
>>> Then I suggest we do the same that we=E2=80=99re planning to do with =
the NMS
>> section, the model discussion, etc: Have a short paragraph describe th=
e
>> overall topic briefly, and point to an external doc for now, i.e., pro=
bably your
>> draft.
>>> If you agree, can you suggest where in the reference model you would =
add
>> a short paragraph about fault management, and I suppose we=E2=80=99d p=
oint to your
>> draft, right?
>>> Michael
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
>>> Sent: 13 October 2015 03:53
>>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
>>> <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'
>>> <dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>;
>>> 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'
>>> <jiangsheng@huawei.com<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>>;
>>> 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org'
>>> <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>;
>>> 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
>>> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>
>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>
>>> Mike,
>>> I am waiting for your response.
>>> Thanks
>>> Mehmet
>>>
>>> From: Toy, Mehmet
>>> Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 8:13 PM
>>> To: 'mbehring@cisco.com'
>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
>> chairs@tools.ietf.org'; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>
>>> Mike,
>>> I can send you some text to include in section 2 and 4 of  =E2=80=9CA=
 Reference
>> Model for Autonomic Networking,   draft-behringer-anima-reference-
>> model-03=E2=80=9D,  per Sheng=E2=80=99s suggestion.
>>> Should I just do that?
>>> Thanks
>>> Mehmet
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Toy, Mehmet
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 7:53 AM
>>> To: 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org';
>> 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'; 'mbehring@cisco.com'
>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'
>>> Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks
>>>
>>> Sheng,
>>> Appreciate a quick response.
>>> I will work on your suggestion.
>>> Mehmet
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com]
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 06:08 AM Eastern Standard Time
>>> To: Toy, Mehmet;
>>> anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>
>>> <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>;
>>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
>>> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>;
>>> mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>
>>> <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
>>> Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
>>> (dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>)
>>> <dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>
>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>
>>> Hi, Toy,
>>> First of all, for my understanding, your work is in the scope of the =
WG
>> charter. However, we do not have work item or milestone for it. It loo=
ks like
>> an upper-layer autonomic service agent for me. In our plan, autonomic
>> service agents are mainly for the next period, which is after re-chart=
er (this is
>> the same with your suggestion of modifying the charter, but it cannot
>> happen until we deliver the current milestones). For now, the best may=
 be
>> try to add some description, maybe mainly abstracted functionality, in=
to the
>> reference model document.
>>> Best regards,
>>> Sheng
>>>
>>> From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 1:14 AM
>>> To: anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>;
>>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>;
>>> mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>
>>> Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
>>> (dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>)
>>> Subject: Self-Managed Networks
>>>
>>> Dear All:
>>> I couldn=E2=80=99t attend the Prague meeting, but luckily Dan was abl=
e to present
>> my slides on =E2=80=9CSelf-Managed Networks with Fault Management Hier=
archy=E2=80=9D.
>> The feedback was to position the work in the ANIMA WG scope and
>> framework.
>>>
>>> ANIMA charter in =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et. al., A Reference Model fo=
r Autonomic
>> Networking
>>> draft-behringer-anima-reference-model-03=E2=80=9D refers to =E2=80=9C=
self-healing=E2=80=9D.
>> RFC7575,  =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et al.,   Autonomic Networking: Defin=
itions and
>> Design Goals=E2=80=9D,  refers to =E2=80=9Cself-management=E2=80=9D. H=
owever, both documents do
>> not  articulate fault management aspect of the self-management.  It is=

>> possible to interpret the fault management aspect of autonomic network=
s as
>> part of =E2=80=9Cself-healing=E2=80=9D and therefore as part of the AN=
IMA charter.  In that
>> case, the =E2=80=9CArchitectural Framework for Self-Managed Networks w=
ith Fault
>> Management Hierarchy, draft-mtoy-anima-self-faultmang-framework-
>> 00.txt=E2=80=9D contribution can target to fill that gap.  The control=
 plane aspect of
>> self-healing is addressed by =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et al., An Autonom=
ic Control
>> Plane, draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane-03=E2=80=9D.  I b=
elieve these
>> contributions are complementary to each other. I can try to address th=
at in
>> the contribution.
>>>
>>> Please let me know if you agree with me. If not, I suggest to modify =
the
>> charter since without covering fault management aspect of the autonomi=
c
>> networks, the concept of autonomic network will be incomplete.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Mehmet
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


From nobody Thu Oct 15 15:57:36 2015
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To: "Toy, Mehmet" <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>, Toerless Eckert <eckert@cisco.com>
References: <9accdec6dd894df6afed38215b28b494@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <20151014231557.GA13294@cisco.com> <5fe9c36320aa4921b12eb0279463d2cb@VAADCEX37.cable.comcast.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
Message-ID: <56202F61.9030300@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 11:57:37 +1300
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
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Just commenting on one key point:

> MT: Ethernet frame is just an example. We can collectively decide to have something else. The key point here is to have one message format for all FM related communications.

Anima has decided to run over a secure layer 3 by default (i.e. the ACP). And our plan
is to have a globally applicable signaling protocol (i.e. GRASP). Of course, if GRASP
isn't suitable for a given use case, we would have two alternatives
1. Extend GRASP, which is relatively easy thanks to CBOR;
2. Use something else, which has its own complications.

GRASP can carry any format, YANG if you like, but whether you can model
any particular use case is of course TBD.
Please review https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-grasp

Regards
   Brian Carpenter


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To: reddy.pallavali@ulusofona.pt, "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BBB558B@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <7145ab65268b4fb3b279e2ce9da1fdaa@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <cbc6f29eda114b848f3dac35609b2da8@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <9c8b64c962c443f19f6fd784cb9927a7@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <7512f6b600904c49838fcf729e3000a5@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <334e22acb30e487eb7f5a2d41fb54499@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <ff7789800a574fcb901e096a0a11f5bb@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <dd5a46abd24c49d2a9acd31a608ef7e8@VAADCEX37.cable.comcast.com> <14fdc79570b54d0e9562382c5d53a3ef@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <561EC845.9020505@gmail.com> <c1e45907707f42d3ae1e9beb0647a760@VAADCEX37.cable.comcast.com> <03347fe65bce48e9ba28827f5c4c0624@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <CAC0HMNTbO3GyPZTvKu_3ggyUjrN07asN4Cwnr9u67=r-4VoSOA@mail.gmail.com> <67d5c9f5bf374fe397bff706846d9195@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <CAC0HMNRG3mhvVbkfvQ2UPXn5w5LF9ir1zOOTn0=r1ohmzY8Wtw@mail.gmail.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
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Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 12:00:19 +1300
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
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Reddy,

We decided to limit negotiation in GRASP to the bilateral case, since
multilateral negotiation and consensus seemed to us to be a research prob=
lem
still. Please look at the protocol design, your comments will be most
welcome.

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-grasp-01

Regards
   Brian Carpenter

On 15/10/2015 23:03, Reddy Pallavali wrote:
> Many thanks for your kind reply,
>=20
> Recently i joined in IETF - ANIMA group, so i do not know about IETF -
> Yokohama; I will look into that.
>=20
> Since, the networks are fully distributed, asynchronous, heterogeneous =
and
> dynamic, as i understood.
>=20
> Consensus relay convergence time, robustness, and fault-tolerance again=
st
> failures (e.g. termination, validation, integrity and agreement).
>=20
> For instance, in ACP, the autonomic functions have to fulfill their
> individual goals and also must cooperate their behaviour towards global=

> goal of the entire network. Meaning that autonomic functions such as,
> energy efficiency, load balancing, scalability, availability conflicts =
with
> each other based on users mobility. The energy efficiency function
> conflicts with availability and mobility; also with load balancing; sin=
ce
> adaptively micro, macro, and pico cells have to adjust their
> functionalities in the mean time have to serve all its objects under th=
eir
> signals. So, there is a need of coordinated function (consensus state),=

> that maximizes individual and global goals by reducing conflicts betwee=
n
> them.
>=20
> We have Swarm and Artificial Intelligence techniques to reach consensus=

> state in a dynamic situation, since they will learn the past and antici=
pate
> the future by prediction.
>=20
> I hope it works better for bottom-up approach, as you mentioned this gr=
oups
> focus is also bottom-up.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:27 AM, Michael Behringer (mbehring) <
> mbehring@cisco.com> wrote:
>=20
>> Hi Reddy,
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for chiming in!  Nice to get some fresh view on our work.
>>
>>
>>
>> I=E2=80=99m not sure consensus is =E2=80=9Cinstead=E2=80=9D of synchro=
nisation, I think those are
>> two different things. Synchronisation just keeps the state on some dev=
ices
>> in sync, consensus is to me a specific form of negotiation.
>>
>>
>>
>> In this working group we=E2=80=99re very focused on a bottom-up approa=
ch, i.e.,
>> first understand small building blocks and how we can use them, later =
plug
>> them together in a wider framework. The approach is use-case driven, i=
n
>> other words, for everything we do we=E2=80=99d like a clear example on=
 how this
>> would be used in a running network.
>>
>>
>>
>> Can you give us an example on how consensus could be used in today=E2=80=
=99s
>> networks? The simpler the example, the better. We are looking to under=
stand
>> how a network function would use consensus in a concrete situation.
>>
>>
>>
>> Once we understand the use case, we can see how and where to bring it =
in.
>>
>>
>>
>> Will you be at the IETF in Yokohama? If so, we should meet and discuss=
=2E
>>
>>
>>
>> Michael
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Reddy Pallavali [mailto:f80077@ulusofona.pt]
>> *Sent:* 15 October 2015 11:08
>> *To:* Michael Behringer (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com>
>> *Cc:* Toy, Mehmet <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>; Brian E Carpenter <
>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>; anima@ietf.org
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I am new to this mailing list, and junior researcher from COPELABS, Li=
sbon.
>>
>> I have one suggestion when it comes to ACP toolkit - instead of using
>> synchronization, can use consensus?
>>
>> Since, synchronization is more towards centralized "Coordinator initia=
te
>> to agree on something (towards centralized), and others have to adjust=

>> their state".
>>
>> When it comes to consensus "individual neighbors come to global
>> intelligence by simple communication rules (fully distributed), and
>> majority opinion is valid".
>>
>> My PhD thesis area is on Consensus so, i can contribute this section.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 9:57 AM, Michael Behringer (mbehring) <
>> mbehring@cisco.com> wrote:
>>
>> Toy, thanks for raising those questions. Obviously, we're not doing a =
good
>> job yet in describing what the ACP is, and that needs to be fixed. And=

>> obviously, we all need the same view to progress further. So this is a=
 very
>> important discussion, and I really welcome it.
>>
>> Before formalising better text, let me see whether we get agreement on=
 the
>> fundamental idea.
>>
>> In my head, there are two layers: The ACP, and on top of that the
>> Autonomic Functions:
>>
>> * The ACP is the "tool kit". It comprises various "mechanics", such as=

>> negotiation, synchronisation, discovery of various sorts, messaging, e=
tc.
>> Those are all based on a common addressing and naming concept.
>>
>> * Autonomic Functions use that tool kit to do something clever. In oth=
er
>> words, the true autonomic "intelligence" sits on that level.
>>
>> There is *one* ACP, there are *many* autonomic functions on top.
>>
>> One way to decide to which layer something belongs is to ask: "is this=
 (1)
>> a generic functionality which many functions require, or is this (2) o=
ne
>> specific function?". If the answer is (1), it belongs into the ACP, if=
 (2)
>> it belongs into an autonomic function.
>>
>> So, in this light, my understanding (!) of fault management is that th=
is
>> is an autonomic function, and would use common blocks of the underlyin=
g
>> ACP. Conversely, it would not offer services to other autonomic functi=
ons
>> on top. This is my way of thinking when I write "this is an autonomic
>> function".  And I'm not 100% certain I understand what you're suggesti=
ng,
>> so please chime in here! (And I haven't read your draft fully yet, sor=
ry)
>>
>> Look at
>> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-01.txt
>> This draft describes "intelligence". In that case, a way to automatica=
lly
>> manage address space. Sections 2.2 and 2.3 explain which parameters an=
d
>> information exchanges such a function would require. Sheng wrote this
>> document to explain how an autonomic function would use a common ACP.
>>
>> Probably we should take some off-line time in Yokohama to discuss this=
 in
>> a small team?
>>
>> Michael
>>
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Toy, Mehmet
>>> Sent: 15 October 2015 04:26
>>> To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>; Michael Behringe=
r
>>> (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com>; anima@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
>>>
>>> Michael and Brian,
>>> Per Toerless suggestion, I am including ANIMA group into the discussi=
on.
>>>
>>> I re-read the "A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking" document a=
nd
>>> I am not clear about the definitions.
>>>
>>> a)  In the "A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking", ACP is defin=
ed
>> as
>>> "The Autonomic Control Plane is the summary of all interactions of th=
e
>>> Autonomic Networking Infrastructure with other nodes and services.".
>>>
>>> b) Brian, you write as " The ACP is common infrastructure for all
>> autonomic
>>> functions.(The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of course.) The signal=
ing
>>> protocol is also common infrastructure."
>>>
>>> Question: What is ACP? a or b or combination?
>>>
>>> c) Section 4 in the reference model document , "The Autonomic Network=
ing
>>> Infrastructure provides a layer of common  functionality across an
>> Autonomic
>>> Network.  It comprises "must implement" functions and services, as we=
ll
>> as
>>> extensions."
>>> Question: What are the "must implement" functionalities?  How do you
>>> define "must implement" functionalities?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Mehmet
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM
>>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); Toy, Mehmet
>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
>>> chairs@tools.ietf.org'
>>> Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks
>>>
>>> I agree with Michael. The ACP is common infrastructure for all autono=
mic
>>> functions.
>>> (The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of course.) The signaling protoc=
ol
>> is also
>>> common infrastructure.
>>>
>>>    Brian
>>> On 15/10/2015 05:43, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>>>> I would argue they are part of an autonomic function, which runs on
>> top of
>>> the ACP.
>>>> There are really two different pieces here, and this is I think the
>> confusion
>>> here:
>>>>
>>>> -          The ACP is self-managing. It needs to do self-healing, an=
d
>>> automatically adapt to new situations. But to me, this isn=E2=80=99t =
fault
>> management
>>> or performance management as an operator understands it.
>>>>
>>>> -          The network has FM and PM function. Those could be (and
>> should
>>> be, imo) autonomic functions. Those run on top of the ACP.
>>>> Bottom line: I=E2=80=99d like to keep the ACP itself as minimalistic=
 and
>> simple as we
>>> possibly can. Functions like FM / PM belong into an autonomic functio=
n,
>> IMO.
>>>> What do you think?
>>>> Michael
>>>> From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
>>>> Sent: 14 October 2015 18:30
>>>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com>
>>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com' <dromasca@avaya.com>;
>>> 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'
>>>> <jiangsheng@huawei.com>; 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org'
>>>> <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
>>>> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>>
>>>> Michael,
>>>> Instead of answering the question as Yes or No, let me give examples=
 to
>>> see what makes sense.
>>>> Let=E2=80=99s say in a data path, a router port is failed.  The rout=
er
>> generates an AIS
>>> (Alarm Indication Signal) and the receiving  end generates RDI (remot=
e
>>> Defect Indicator).  Both messages are generated by the hardware, not =
by a
>>> software or ACP.   As a result of this failure,  there would be packe=
t
>> loss. The
>>> hardware counts these losses, an ACP does not.
>>>> For the FM and PM functions above, can we say they are part of an AC=
P?
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Mehmet
>>>> From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com]
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:34 AM
>>>> To: Toy, Mehmet
>>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
>>> chairs@tools.ietf.org'; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
>>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>>
>>>> Hi Toy,
>>>> To understand better: To me, fault management *uses* the functions o=
f
>>> the AN infrastructure. It uses the ACP to communicate, maybe GRASP fo=
r
>>> some signalling, might be influenced by Intent, etc. Right?  So to me=
,
>> this is a
>>> logical component of an autonomic network that sits on top of the AN
>>> infrastructure.
>>>> Do we agree?
>>>> Michael
>>>>
>>>> From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
>>>> Sent: 13 October 2015 23:46
>>>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
>>>> <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
>>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'
>>>> <dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>;
>>>> 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'
>>>> <jiangsheng@huawei.com<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>>;
>>>> 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org'
>>>> <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>;
>>>> 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
>>>> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>
>>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>>
>>>> Michael,
>>>> Appreciate the reply.
>>>> FM is part of data plane and control plane (i.e. ANI in your diagram=
).
>>>> My plan is to add a short paragraph for now either to section 2 to
>> expand
>>> the description  of ANI or to section 4 to add a sub-section for Faul=
t
>>> Management.
>>>>
>>>> It is also possible too add a Performance Management section to
>> describe
>>> what types of measurements and where and how are used.  Although ther=
e
>>> is a control feedback related measurement in the document, I don=E2=80=
=99t know
>> if
>>> it is adequate.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Mehmet
>>>> From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 12:27 PM
>>>> To: Toy, Mehmet
>>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
>>> chairs@tools.ietf.org'; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
>>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>>
>>>> Sorry for the delay, it=E2=80=99s very busy at the moment here.
>>>> To me, fault management refers generally to faults on the data plane=
,
>> ie for
>>> user traffic. I see that happening at some point as an autonomic
>> function (or
>>> several, for different aspects). Would you agree? Or do you see that =
as a
>>> function inside the AN infrastructure?
>>>> So my feeling is that function would reside on top of the
>> infrastructure that
>>> we=E2=80=99re currently defining. So, please have a look whether your=
 thoughts
>> can
>>> be described as an autonomic function. I think they probably can.
>>>> Then I suggest we do the same that we=E2=80=99re planning to do with=
 the NMS
>>> section, the model discussion, etc: Have a short paragraph describe t=
he
>>> overall topic briefly, and point to an external doc for now, i.e.,
>> probably your
>>> draft.
>>>> If you agree, can you suggest where in the reference model you would=

>> add
>>> a short paragraph about fault management, and I suppose we=E2=80=99d =
point to
>> your
>>> draft, right?
>>>> Michael
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
>>>> Sent: 13 October 2015 03:53
>>>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
>>>> <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
>>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'
>>>> <dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>;
>>>> 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'
>>>> <jiangsheng@huawei.com<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>>;
>>>> 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org'
>>>> <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>;
>>>> 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
>>>> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>
>>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>>
>>>> Mike,
>>>> I am waiting for your response.
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Mehmet
>>>>
>>>> From: Toy, Mehmet
>>>> Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 8:13 PM
>>>> To: 'mbehring@cisco.com'
>>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
>>> chairs@tools.ietf.org'; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
>>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>>
>>>> Mike,
>>>> I can send you some text to include in section 2 and 4 of  =E2=80=9C=
A Reference
>>> Model for Autonomic Networking,   draft-behringer-anima-reference-
>>> model-03=E2=80=9D,  per Sheng=E2=80=99s suggestion.
>>>> Should I just do that?
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Mehmet
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Toy, Mehmet
>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 7:53 AM
>>>> To: 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org';
>>> 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'; 'mbehring@cisco.com'
>>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'
>>>> Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks
>>>>
>>>> Sheng,
>>>> Appreciate a quick response.
>>>> I will work on your suggestion.
>>>> Mehmet
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com]
>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 06:08 AM Eastern Standard Time
>>>> To: Toy, Mehmet;
>>>> anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>
>>>> <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>;
>>>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
>>>> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>;
>>>> mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>
>>>> <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
>>>> Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
>>>> (dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>)
>>>> <dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>
>>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>>
>>>> Hi, Toy,
>>>> First of all, for my understanding, your work is in the scope of the=
 WG
>>> charter. However, we do not have work item or milestone for it. It lo=
oks
>> like
>>> an upper-layer autonomic service agent for me. In our plan, autonomic=

>>> service agents are mainly for the next period, which is after re-char=
ter
>> (this is
>>> the same with your suggestion of modifying the charter, but it cannot=

>>> happen until we deliver the current milestones). For now, the best ma=
y be
>>> try to add some description, maybe mainly abstracted functionality, i=
nto
>> the
>>> reference model document.
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> Sheng
>>>>
>>>> From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 1:14 AM
>>>> To: anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>;=

>>>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>;
>>>> mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>
>>>> Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
>>>> (dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>)
>>>> Subject: Self-Managed Networks
>>>>
>>>> Dear All:
>>>> I couldn=E2=80=99t attend the Prague meeting, but luckily Dan was ab=
le to
>> present
>>> my slides on =E2=80=9CSelf-Managed Networks with Fault Management Hie=
rarchy=E2=80=9D.
>>> The feedback was to position the work in the ANIMA WG scope and
>>> framework.
>>>>
>>>> ANIMA charter in =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et. al., A Reference Model f=
or
>> Autonomic
>>> Networking
>>>> draft-behringer-anima-reference-model-03=E2=80=9D refers to =E2=80=9C=
self-healing=E2=80=9D.
>>> RFC7575,  =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et al.,   Autonomic Networking: Defi=
nitions and
>>> Design Goals=E2=80=9D,  refers to =E2=80=9Cself-management=E2=80=9D. =
However, both documents do
>>> not  articulate fault management aspect of the self-management.  It i=
s
>>> possible to interpret the fault management aspect of autonomic networ=
ks
>> as
>>> part of =E2=80=9Cself-healing=E2=80=9D and therefore as part of the A=
NIMA charter.  In
>> that
>>> case, the =E2=80=9CArchitectural Framework for Self-Managed Networks =
with Fault
>>> Management Hierarchy, draft-mtoy-anima-self-faultmang-framework-
>>> 00.txt=E2=80=9D contribution can target to fill that gap.  The contro=
l plane
>> aspect of
>>> self-healing is addressed by =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et al., An Autono=
mic Control
>>> Plane, draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane-03=E2=80=9D.  I =
believe
>> these
>>> contributions are complementary to each other. I can try to address t=
hat
>> in
>>> the contribution.
>>>>
>>>> Please let me know if you agree with me. If not, I suggest to modify=

>> the
>>> charter since without covering fault management aspect of the autonom=
ic
>>> networks, the concept of autonomic network will be incomplete.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Mehmet
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Anima mailing list
>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Thank you very much for your time and consideration.
>>
>>
>>
>> Yours sincerely,
>>
>> P Radha Krishna Reddy, M.Sc, M.Tech,
>>
>> Junior Researcher/Ph.D Student,
>>
>> COPE LABS, Universidade Lusofona, Lisboa - Portugal.
>>
>> Author of: Security Issues of Cloud Computing over General & IT Sector=

>> Mobile: +351923095671
>> www.prkreddy.webs.com
>> http://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/
>>
>=20
>=20
>=20


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From: "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" <eckert@cisco.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>, "Toy, Mehmet" <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
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Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 23:20:20 +0000
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From: "Toy, Mehmet" <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>
To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
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From: "Toy, Mehmet" <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>
To: "reddy.pallavali@ulusofona.pt" <reddy.pallavali@ulusofona.pt>, "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
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From: "Toy, Mehmet" <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, Toerless Eckert <eckert@cisco.com>
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Cc: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\) \(dromasca@avaya.com\)" <dromasca@avaya.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "mbehring@cisco.com" <mbehring@cisco.com>, "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>
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To: "Toy, Mehmet" <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>, "reddy.pallavali@ulusofona.pt" <reddy.pallavali@ulusofona.pt>, "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BBB558B@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <7145ab65268b4fb3b279e2ce9da1fdaa@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <cbc6f29eda114b848f3dac35609b2da8@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <9c8b64c962c443f19f6fd784cb9927a7@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <7512f6b600904c49838fcf729e3000a5@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <334e22acb30e487eb7f5a2d41fb54499@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <ff7789800a574fcb901e096a0a11f5bb@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <dd5a46abd24c49d2a9acd31a608ef7e8@VAADCEX37.cable.comcast.com> <14fdc79570b54d0e9562382c5d53a3ef@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <561EC845.9020505@gmail.com> <c1e45907707f42d3ae1e9beb0647a760@VAADCEX37.cable.comcast.com> <03347fe65bce48e9ba28827f5c4c0624@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <CAC0HMNTbO3GyPZTvKu_3ggyUjrN07asN4Cwnr9u67=r-4VoSOA@mail.gmail.com> <67d5c9f5bf374fe397bff706846d9195@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <CAC0HMNRG3mhvVbkfvQ2UPXn5w5LF9ir1zOOTn0=r1ohmzY8Wtw@mail.gmail.com> <0336ce331f1348ada38e8f27435a306b@VAADCEX37.cable.comcast.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
Message-ID: <56208B0E.3090509@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 18:28:46 +1300
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Cc: "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
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On 16/10/2015 17:04, Toy, Mehmet wrote:
> Reddy,
> I believe =E2=80=9Csynchronization=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cconsensus=E2=80=
=9D words are applicable to different situations. You gave a good AI exam=
ple for consensus.
> On the other hand  if we are talking timing relationship between two en=
ds of  a  circuit emulation, we have to use =E2=80=9Csynchronization=E2=80=
=9D.

We are not using the word "synchronization" to refer to time synch, only =
to synching
data state between nodes.

   Brian


>=20
> In autonomous networks, we might be able to use both words depending on=
 the situation.
> Thanks
> Mehmet
>=20
> From: Reddy Pallavali [mailto:f80077@ulusofona.pt]
> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 6:03 AM
> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
> Cc: Toy, Mehmet; Brian E Carpenter; anima@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
>=20
> Many thanks for your kind reply,
> Recently i joined in IETF - ANIMA group, so i do not know about IETF - =
Yokohama; I will look into that.
>=20
> Since, the networks are fully distributed, asynchronous, heterogeneous =
and dynamic, as i understood.
>=20
> Consensus relay convergence time, robustness, and fault-tolerance again=
st failures (e.g. termination, validation, integrity and agreement).
> For instance, in ACP, the autonomic functions have to fulfill their ind=
ividual goals and also must cooperate their behaviour towards global goal=
 of the entire network. Meaning that autonomic functions such as, energy =
efficiency, load balancing, scalability, availability conflicts with each=
 other based on users mobility. The energy efficiency function conflicts =
with availability and mobility; also with load balancing; since adaptivel=
y micro, macro, and pico cells have to adjust their functionalities in th=
e mean time have to serve all its objects under their signals. So, there =
is a need of coordinated function (consensus state), that maximizes indiv=
idual and global goals by reducing conflicts between them.
> We have Swarm and Artificial Intelligence techniques to reach consensus=
 state in a dynamic situation, since they will learn the past and anticip=
ate the future by prediction.
>=20
> I hope it works better for bottom-up approach, as you mentioned this gr=
oups focus is also bottom-up.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:27 AM, Michael Behringer (mbehring) <mbehrin=
g@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>> wrote:
> Hi Reddy,
>=20
> Thanks for chiming in!  Nice to get some fresh view on our work.
>=20
> I=E2=80=99m not sure consensus is =E2=80=9Cinstead=E2=80=9D of synchron=
isation, I think those are two different things. Synchronisation just kee=
ps the state on some devices in sync, consensus is to me a specific form =
of negotiation.
>=20
> In this working group we=E2=80=99re very focused on a bottom-up approac=
h, i.e., first understand small building blocks and how we can use them, =
later plug them together in a wider framework. The approach is use-case d=
riven, in other words, for everything we do we=E2=80=99d like a clear exa=
mple on how this would be used in a running network.
>=20
> Can you give us an example on how consensus could be used in today=E2=80=
=99s networks? The simpler the example, the better. We are looking to und=
erstand how a network function would use consensus in a concrete situatio=
n.
>=20
> Once we understand the use case, we can see how and where to bring it i=
n.
>=20
> Will you be at the IETF in Yokohama? If so, we should meet and discuss.=

>=20
> Michael
>=20
>=20
> From: Reddy Pallavali [mailto:f80077@ulusofona.pt<mailto:f80077@ulusofo=
na.pt>]
> Sent: 15 October 2015 11:08
> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@ci=
sco.com>>
> Cc: Toy, Mehmet <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com<mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.c=
omcast.com>>; Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian=
=2Ee.carpenter@gmail.com>>; anima@ietf.org<mailto:anima@ietf.org>
>=20
> Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
>=20
> Hi,
> I am new to this mailing list, and junior researcher from COPELABS, Lis=
bon.
> I have one suggestion when it comes to ACP toolkit - instead of using s=
ynchronization, can use consensus?
> Since, synchronization is more towards centralized "Coordinator initiat=
e to agree on something (towards centralized), and others have to adjust =
their state".
> When it comes to consensus "individual neighbors come to global intelli=
gence by simple communication rules (fully distributed), and majority opi=
nion is valid".
> My PhD thesis area is on Consensus so, i can contribute this section.
>=20
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 9:57 AM, Michael Behringer (mbehring) <mbehring=
@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>> wrote:
> Toy, thanks for raising those questions. Obviously, we're not doing a g=
ood job yet in describing what the ACP is, and that needs to be fixed. An=
d obviously, we all need the same view to progress further. So this is a =
very important discussion, and I really welcome it.
>=20
> Before formalising better text, let me see whether we get agreement on =
the fundamental idea.
>=20
> In my head, there are two layers: The ACP, and on top of that the Auton=
omic Functions:
>=20
> * The ACP is the "tool kit". It comprises various "mechanics", such as =
negotiation, synchronisation, discovery of various sorts, messaging, etc.=
 Those are all based on a common addressing and naming concept.
>=20
> * Autonomic Functions use that tool kit to do something clever. In othe=
r words, the true autonomic "intelligence" sits on that level.
>=20
> There is *one* ACP, there are *many* autonomic functions on top.
>=20
> One way to decide to which layer something belongs is to ask: "is this =
(1) a generic functionality which many functions require, or is this (2) =
one specific function?". If the answer is (1), it belongs into the ACP, i=
f (2) it belongs into an autonomic function.
>=20
> So, in this light, my understanding (!) of fault management is that thi=
s is an autonomic function, and would use common blocks of the underlying=
 ACP. Conversely, it would not offer services to other autonomic function=
s on top. This is my way of thinking when I write "this is an autonomic f=
unction".  And I'm not 100% certain I understand what you're suggesting, =
so please chime in here! (And I haven't read your draft fully yet, sorry)=

>=20
> Look at http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-01=
=2Etxt
> This draft describes "intelligence". In that case, a way to automatical=
ly manage address space. Sections 2.2 and 2.3 explain which parameters an=
d information exchanges such a function would require. Sheng wrote this d=
ocument to explain how an autonomic function would use a common ACP.
>=20
> Probably we should take some off-line time in Yokohama to discuss this =
in a small team?
>=20
> Michael
>=20
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.o=
rg>] On Behalf Of Toy, Mehmet
>> Sent: 15 October 2015 04:26
>> To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carp=
enter@gmail.com>>; Michael Behringer
>> (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>; anima@ietf=
=2Eorg<mailto:anima@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
>>
>> Michael and Brian,
>> Per Toerless suggestion, I am including ANIMA group into the discussio=
n.
>>
>> I re-read the "A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking" document an=
d
>> I am not clear about the definitions.
>>
>> a)  In the "A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking", ACP is define=
d as
>> "The Autonomic Control Plane is the summary of all interactions of the=

>> Autonomic Networking Infrastructure with other nodes and services.".
>>
>> b) Brian, you write as " The ACP is common infrastructure for all auto=
nomic
>> functions.(The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of course.) The signali=
ng
>> protocol is also common infrastructure."
>>
>> Question: What is ACP? a or b or combination?
>>
>> c) Section 4 in the reference model document , "The Autonomic Networki=
ng
>> Infrastructure provides a layer of common  functionality across an Aut=
onomic
>> Network.  It comprises "must implement" functions and services, as wel=
l as
>> extensions."
>> Question: What are the "must implement" functionalities?  How do you
>> define "must implement" functionalities?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Mehmet
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:bri=
an.e.carpenter@gmail.com>]
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM
>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); Toy, Mehmet
>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>'; 'jiangsheng@huawe=
i.com<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>'; 'anima-
>> chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org>'
>> Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks
>>
>> I agree with Michael. The ACP is common infrastructure for all autonom=
ic
>> functions.
>> (The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of course.) The signaling protoco=
l is also
>> common infrastructure.
>>
>>    Brian
>> On 15/10/2015 05:43, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>>> I would argue they are part of an autonomic function, which runs on t=
op of
>> the ACP.
>>> There are really two different pieces here, and this is I think the c=
onfusion
>> here:
>>>
>>> -          The ACP is self-managing. It needs to do self-healing, and=

>> automatically adapt to new situations. But to me, this isn=E2=80=99t f=
ault management
>> or performance management as an operator understands it.
>>>
>>> -          The network has FM and PM function. Those could be (and sh=
ould
>> be, imo) autonomic functions. Those run on top of the ACP.
>>> Bottom line: I=E2=80=99d like to keep the ACP itself as minimalistic =
and simple as we
>> possibly can. Functions like FM / PM belong into an autonomic function=
, IMO.
>>> What do you think?
>>> Michael
>>> From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com<mailto:Mehmet_=
Toy@cable.comcast.com>]
>>> Sent: 14 October 2015 18:30
>>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@=
cisco.com>>
>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>' <dromasca@avaya.c=
om<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>;
>> 'jiangsheng@huawei.com<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>'
>>> <jiangsheng@huawei.com<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>>; 'anima-chairs@=
tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>'
>>> <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>; 'b=
rian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>'
>>> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>
>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>
>>> Michael,
>>> Instead of answering the question as Yes or No, let me give examples =
to
>> see what makes sense.
>>> Let=E2=80=99s say in a data path, a router port is failed.  The route=
r generates an AIS
>> (Alarm Indication Signal) and the receiving  end generates RDI (remote=

>> Defect Indicator).  Both messages are generated by the hardware, not b=
y a
>> software or ACP.   As a result of this failure,  there would be packet=
 loss. The
>> hardware counts these losses, an ACP does not.
>>> For the FM and PM functions above, can we say they are part of an ACP=
?
>>> Thanks
>>> Mehmet
>>> From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:=
mbehring@cisco.com>]
>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:34 AM
>>> To: Toy, Mehmet
>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>'; 'jiangsheng@huaw=
ei.com<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>'; 'anima-
>> chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org>'; 'brian.e.carpent=
er@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>'
>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>
>>> Hi Toy,
>>> To understand better: To me, fault management *uses* the functions of=

>> the AN infrastructure. It uses the ACP to communicate, maybe GRASP for=

>> some signalling, might be influenced by Intent, etc. Right?  So to me,=
 this is a
>> logical component of an autonomic network that sits on top of the AN
>> infrastructure.
>>> Do we agree?
>>> Michael
>>>
>>> From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com<mailto:Mehmet_=
Toy@cable.comcast.com>]
>>> Sent: 13 October 2015 23:46
>>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
>>> <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com><mailto:mbehring@cisco.=
com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>>
>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>'
>>> <dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com><mailto:dromasca@avaya.=
com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>>;
>>> 'jiangsheng@huawei.com<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>'
>>> <jiangsheng@huawei.com<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com><mailto:jiangshen=
g@huawei.com<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>>>;
>>> 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>'
>>> <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org><mail=
to:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>>;
>>> 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>'
>>> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com><mail=
to:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>>
>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>
>>> Michael,
>>> Appreciate the reply.
>>> FM is part of data plane and control plane (i.e. ANI in your diagram)=
=2E
>>> My plan is to add a short paragraph for now either to section 2 to ex=
pand
>> the description  of ANI or to section 4 to add a sub-section for Fault=

>> Management.
>>>
>>> It is also possible too add a Performance Management section to descr=
ibe
>> what types of measurements and where and how are used.  Although there=

>> is a control feedback related measurement in the document, I don=E2=80=
=99t know if
>> it is adequate.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Mehmet
>>> From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:=
mbehring@cisco.com>]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 12:27 PM
>>> To: Toy, Mehmet
>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>'; 'jiangsheng@huaw=
ei.com<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>'; 'anima-
>> chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org>'; 'brian.e.carpent=
er@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>'
>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>
>>> Sorry for the delay, it=E2=80=99s very busy at the moment here.
>>> To me, fault management refers generally to faults on the data plane,=
 ie for
>> user traffic. I see that happening at some point as an autonomic funct=
ion (or
>> several, for different aspects). Would you agree? Or do you see that a=
s a
>> function inside the AN infrastructure?
>>> So my feeling is that function would reside on top of the infrastruct=
ure that
>> we=E2=80=99re currently defining. So, please have a look whether your =
thoughts can
>> be described as an autonomic function. I think they probably can.
>>> Then I suggest we do the same that we=E2=80=99re planning to do with =
the NMS
>> section, the model discussion, etc: Have a short paragraph describe th=
e
>> overall topic briefly, and point to an external doc for now, i.e., pro=
bably your
>> draft.
>>> If you agree, can you suggest where in the reference model you would =
add
>> a short paragraph about fault management, and I suppose we=E2=80=99d p=
oint to your
>> draft, right?
>>> Michael
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com<mailto:Mehmet_=
Toy@cable.comcast.com>]
>>> Sent: 13 October 2015 03:53
>>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
>>> <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com><mailto:mbehring@cisco.=
com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>>
>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>'
>>> <dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com><mailto:dromasca@avaya.=
com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>>;
>>> 'jiangsheng@huawei.com<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>'
>>> <jiangsheng@huawei.com<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com><mailto:jiangshen=
g@huawei.com<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>>>;
>>> 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>'
>>> <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org><mail=
to:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>>;
>>> 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>'
>>> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com><mail=
to:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>>
>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>
>>> Mike,
>>> I am waiting for your response.
>>> Thanks
>>> Mehmet
>>>
>>> From: Toy, Mehmet
>>> Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 8:13 PM
>>> To: 'mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>'
>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>'; 'jiangsheng@huaw=
ei.com<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>'; 'anima-
>> chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org>'; 'brian.e.carpent=
er@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>'
>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>
>>> Mike,
>>> I can send you some text to include in section 2 and 4 of  =E2=80=9CA=
 Reference
>> Model for Autonomic Networking,   draft-behringer-anima-reference-
>> model-03=E2=80=9D,  per Sheng=E2=80=99s suggestion.
>>> Should I just do that?
>>> Thanks
>>> Mehmet
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Toy, Mehmet
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 7:53 AM
>>> To: 'jiangsheng@huawei.com<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>'; 'anima-cha=
irs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>';
>> 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>'; 'mb=
ehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>'
>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>'
>>> Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks
>>>
>>> Sheng,
>>> Appreciate a quick response.
>>> I will work on your suggestion.
>>> Mehmet
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com<mailto:jiangsheng@hua=
wei.com>]
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 06:08 AM Eastern Standard Time
>>> To: Toy, Mehmet;
>>> anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org><mailt=
o:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>
>>> <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org><mail=
to:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>>;
>>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com><mailt=
o:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>
>>> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com><mail=
to:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>>;
>>> mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com><mailto:mbehring@cisco.c=
om<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
>>> <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com><mailto:mbehring@cisco.=
com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>>
>>> Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
>>> (dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com><mailto:dromasca@avaya.=
com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>)
>>> <dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com><mailto:dromasca@avaya.=
com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>>
>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>
>>> Hi, Toy,
>>> First of all, for my understanding, your work is in the scope of the =
WG
>> charter. However, we do not have work item or milestone for it. It loo=
ks like
>> an upper-layer autonomic service agent for me. In our plan, autonomic
>> service agents are mainly for the next period, which is after re-chart=
er (this is
>> the same with your suggestion of modifying the charter, but it cannot
>> happen until we deliver the current milestones). For now, the best may=
 be
>> try to add some description, maybe mainly abstracted functionality, in=
to the
>> reference model document.
>>> Best regards,
>>> Sheng
>>>
>>> From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com<mailto:Mehmet_=
Toy@cable.comcast.com>]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 1:14 AM
>>> To: anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org><m=
ailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>;
>>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com><mailt=
o:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>;
>>> mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com><mailto:mbehring@cisco.c=
om<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
>>> Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
>>> (dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com><mailto:dromasca@avaya.=
com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>)
>>> Subject: Self-Managed Networks
>>>
>>> Dear All:
>>> I couldn=E2=80=99t attend the Prague meeting, but luckily Dan was abl=
e to present
>> my slides on =E2=80=9CSelf-Managed Networks with Fault Management Hier=
archy=E2=80=9D.
>> The feedback was to position the work in the ANIMA WG scope and
>> framework.
>>>
>>> ANIMA charter in =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et. al., A Reference Model fo=
r Autonomic
>> Networking
>>> draft-behringer-anima-reference-model-03=E2=80=9D refers to =E2=80=9C=
self-healing=E2=80=9D.
>> RFC7575,  =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et al.,   Autonomic Networking: Defin=
itions and
>> Design Goals=E2=80=9D,  refers to =E2=80=9Cself-management=E2=80=9D. H=
owever, both documents do
>> not  articulate fault management aspect of the self-management.  It is=

>> possible to interpret the fault management aspect of autonomic network=
s as
>> part of =E2=80=9Cself-healing=E2=80=9D and therefore as part of the AN=
IMA charter.  In that
>> case, the =E2=80=9CArchitectural Framework for Self-Managed Networks w=
ith Fault
>> Management Hierarchy, draft-mtoy-anima-self-faultmang-framework-
>> 00.txt=E2=80=9D contribution can target to fill that gap.  The control=
 plane aspect of
>> self-healing is addressed by =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et al., An Autonom=
ic Control
>> Plane, draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane-03=E2=80=9D.  I b=
elieve these
>> contributions are complementary to each other. I can try to address th=
at in
>> the contribution.
>>>
>>> Please let me know if you agree with me. If not, I suggest to modify =
the
>> charter since without covering fault management aspect of the autonomi=
c
>> networks, the concept of autonomic network will be incomplete.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Mehmet
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org<mailto:Anima@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org<mailto:Anima@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --
> Thank you very much for your time and consideration.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Yours sincerely,
>=20
> P Radha Krishna Reddy, M.Sc, M.Tech,
>=20
> Junior Researcher/Ph.D Student,
>=20
> COPE LABS, Universidade Lusofona, Lisboa - Portugal.
> Author of: Security Issues of Cloud Computing over General & IT Sector
> Mobile: +351923095671<tel:%2B351923095671>
> www.prkreddy.webs.com<http://www.prkreddy.webs.com>
> http://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --
> Thank you very much for your time and consideration.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Yours sincerely,
>=20
> P Radha Krishna Reddy, M.Sc, M.Tech,
>=20
> Junior Researcher/Ph.D Student,
>=20
> COPE LABS, Universidade Lusofona, Lisboa - Portugal.
> Author of: Security Issues of Cloud Computing over General & IT Sector
> Mobile: +351923095671
> www.prkreddy.webs.com<http://www.prkreddy.webs.com>
> http://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/
>=20


From nobody Thu Oct 15 22:40:10 2015
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To: "Toy, Mehmet" <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>, Toerless Eckert <eckert@cisco.com>
References: <9accdec6dd894df6afed38215b28b494@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <20151014231557.GA13294@cisco.com> <5fe9c36320aa4921b12eb0279463d2cb@VAADCEX37.cable.comcast.com> <56202F61.9030300@gmail.com> <c482bc65d2ed463ea6253d0c14fba1a5@VAADCEX37.cable.comcast.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
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Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 18:40:09 +1300
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Cc: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\) \(dromasca@avaya.com\)" <dromasca@avaya.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "mbehring@cisco.com" <mbehring@cisco.com>, "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
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Mehmet,

ANIMA communication is over a secure L3*, which is exactly the reason that the ACP
is defined as it is. But of course the targets of a use case could be at any level of the
stack.

*except for discovery messages, which cannot always be secure.

Also of course we cannot claim that GRASP is the solution to all problems.
For example, I recently reviewed draft-ietf-pwe3-iccp-stp. There's no
reason we would use GRASP to solve the fault-management problem that's
already solved by ICCP and the 802 spanning tree.

Regards
   Brian Carpenter

On 16/10/2015 17:17, Toy, Mehmet wrote:
> Brian,
> I would have no objection using GRASP (or extended GRASP) for FM communications as long as we can support the network types that we want. I understand that ANIMA is considering only L3 networks.
> I wish we can generalize our approach so that we can cover both L2 and L3.  Despite of my Ethernet example, my approach is applicable to L2 and L3 networks.
> 
> Regards,,
> Mehmet
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 6:58 PM
> To: Toy, Mehmet; Toerless Eckert
> Cc: anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org; mbehring@cisco.com; Romascanu, Dan (Dan) (dromasca@avaya.com); anima@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks
> 
> Just commenting on one key point:
> 
>> MT: Ethernet frame is just an example. We can collectively decide to have something else. The key point here is to have one message format for all FM related communications.
> 
> Anima has decided to run over a secure layer 3 by default (i.e. the ACP). And our plan is to have a globally applicable signaling protocol (i.e. GRASP). Of course, if GRASP isn't suitable for a given use case, we would have two alternatives 1. Extend GRASP, which is relatively easy thanks to CBOR; 2. Use something else, which has its own complications.
> 
> GRASP can carry any format, YANG if you like, but whether you can model any particular use case is of course TBD.
> Please review https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-grasp
> 
> Regards
>    Brian Carpenter
> 
> 


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To: "Toy, Mehmet" <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>, "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
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From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
Message-ID: <562092DA.3070800@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 19:02:02 +1300
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
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On 16/10/2015 16:36, Toy, Mehmet wrote:
> Michael,
>=20
> Before I pick each of your statement and express my thoughts, I would l=
ike to ask more questions by picking your  statement " There is *one* ACP=
, there are *many* autonomic functions on top.".   Assume we  start build=
ing on this to see how far we can go, whether this holds for all cases or=
 not, I don't know. =20
>=20
> If we have two or more ACPs, what could go wrong?

Why would a domain need more than one ACP? (Certainly there might be a tr=
ansient
situation after a temporary network partition where two ACPs would "meet"=
 and
then need to merge; indeed the ACP needs to be self-repairing in such cas=
es.)

> What is it that you are trying to do here? What is the purpose behind t=
his model?

Provide a secure L3 between all autonomic nodes that is strictly independ=
ent of
the operational data plane. The purpose is to allow autonomic operations =
to work
regardless of anything else.

>=20
> Furthermore, I suggest you to think about ETSI NFV model, "infrastructu=
re" and "VNF" division of networks.  What is wrong in using that kind of =
model here which is a reasonable breakdown,=20

We aren't reinventing NFV, as far as I can tell. If there is a recent tec=
hnical overview of
NFV, that would be interesting to see. But I don't believe that Autonomic=
 Service Agents
are at all the same thing as VNFs.

> instead of sticking with ACP  that is becoming very difficult to define=
?

Huh? draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane is still work in progress b=
ut
it seems very clearly defined to me. In sketching out how GRASP will be i=
mplemented,
I haven't hit any conceptual problems with the ACP, and its main API will=

just be socket calls. The only complication I found is that it will need =
to
support the Advanced Socket API because of some special requirements for
link-local multicasts. Otherwise, it's just another virtual (loopback) ne=
twork
interface.

Regards
   Brian

>=20
> Thanks
> Mehmet
>  =20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com]=20
> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 4:57 AM
> To: Toy, Mehmet; Brian E Carpenter; anima@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>=20
> Toy, thanks for raising those questions. Obviously, we're not doing a g=
ood job yet in describing what the ACP is, and that needs to be fixed. An=
d obviously, we all need the same view to progress further. So this is a =
very important discussion, and I really welcome it.=20
>=20
> Before formalising better text, let me see whether we get agreement on =
the fundamental idea.=20
>=20
> In my head, there are two layers: The ACP, and on top of that the Auton=
omic Functions:=20
>=20
> * The ACP is the "tool kit". It comprises various "mechanics", such as =
negotiation, synchronisation, discovery of various sorts, messaging, etc.=
 Those are all based on a common addressing and naming concept.=20
>=20
> * Autonomic Functions use that tool kit to do something clever. In othe=
r words, the true autonomic "intelligence" sits on that level.=20
>=20
> There is *one* ACP, there are *many* autonomic functions on top.=20
>=20
> One way to decide to which layer something belongs is to ask: "is this =
(1) a generic functionality which many functions require, or is this (2) =
one specific function?". If the answer is (1), it belongs into the ACP, i=
f (2) it belongs into an autonomic function.=20
>=20
> So, in this light, my understanding (!) of fault management is that thi=
s is an autonomic function, and would use common blocks of the underlying=
 ACP. Conversely, it would not offer services to other autonomic function=
s on top. This is my way of thinking when I write "this is an autonomic f=
unction".  And I'm not 100% certain I understand what you're suggesting, =
so please chime in here! (And I haven't read your draft fully yet, sorry)=

>=20
> Look at http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-01=
=2Etxt
> This draft describes "intelligence". In that case, a way to automatical=
ly manage address space. Sections 2.2 and 2.3 explain which parameters an=
d information exchanges such a function would require. Sheng wrote this d=
ocument to explain how an autonomic function would use a common ACP.=20
>=20
> Probably we should take some off-line time in Yokohama to discuss this =
in a small team?=20
>=20
> Michael
>=20
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Toy, Mehmet
>> Sent: 15 October 2015 04:26
>> To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>; Michael Behringer=

>> (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com>; anima@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
>>
>> Michael and Brian,
>> Per Toerless suggestion, I am including ANIMA group into the discussio=
n.
>>
>> I re-read the "A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking" document=20
>> and I am not clear about the definitions.
>>
>> a)  In the "A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking", ACP is=20
>> defined as "The Autonomic Control Plane is the summary of all=20
>> interactions of the Autonomic Networking Infrastructure with other nod=
es and services.".
>>
>> b) Brian, you write as " The ACP is common infrastructure for all=20
>> autonomic functions.(The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of course.)=20
>> The signaling protocol is also common infrastructure."
>>
>> Question: What is ACP? a or b or combination?
>>
>> c) Section 4 in the reference model document , "The Autonomic=20
>> Networking Infrastructure provides a layer of common  functionality=20
>> across an Autonomic Network.  It comprises "must implement" functions =

>> and services, as well as extensions."
>> Question: What are the "must implement" functionalities?  How do you=20
>> define "must implement" functionalities?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Mehmet
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM
>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); Toy, Mehmet
>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-=20
>> chairs@tools.ietf.org'
>> Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks
>>
>> I agree with Michael. The ACP is common infrastructure for all=20
>> autonomic functions.
>> (The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of course.) The signaling=20
>> protocol is also common infrastructure.
>>
>>    Brian
>> On 15/10/2015 05:43, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>>> I would argue they are part of an autonomic function, which runs on=20
>>> top of
>> the ACP.
>>> There are really two different pieces here, and this is I think the=20
>>> confusion
>> here:
>>>
>>> -          The ACP is self-managing. It needs to do self-healing, and=

>> automatically adapt to new situations. But to me, this isn=E2=80=99t f=
ault=20
>> management or performance management as an operator understands it.
>>>
>>> -          The network has FM and PM function. Those could be (and sh=
ould
>> be, imo) autonomic functions. Those run on top of the ACP.
>>> Bottom line: I=E2=80=99d like to keep the ACP itself as minimalistic =
and=20
>>> simple as we
>> possibly can. Functions like FM / PM belong into an autonomic function=
, IMO.
>>> What do you think?
>>> Michael
>>> From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
>>> Sent: 14 October 2015 18:30
>>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com>
>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com' <dromasca@avaya.com>;
>> 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'
>>> <jiangsheng@huawei.com>; 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org'
>>> <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
>>> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>
>>> Michael,
>>> Instead of answering the question as Yes or No, let me give examples =

>>> to
>> see what makes sense.
>>> Let=E2=80=99s say in a data path, a router port is failed.  The route=
r=20
>>> generates an AIS
>> (Alarm Indication Signal) and the receiving  end generates RDI (remote=
=20
>> Defect Indicator).  Both messages are generated by the hardware, not b=
y a
>> software or ACP.   As a result of this failure,  there would be packet=
 loss. The
>> hardware counts these losses, an ACP does not.
>>> For the FM and PM functions above, can we say they are part of an ACP=
?
>>> Thanks
>>> Mehmet
>>> From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com]
>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:34 AM
>>> To: Toy, Mehmet
>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
>> chairs@tools.ietf.org'; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>
>>> Hi Toy,
>>> To understand better: To me, fault management *uses* the functions=20
>>> of
>> the AN infrastructure. It uses the ACP to communicate, maybe GRASP for=
=20
>> some signalling, might be influenced by Intent, etc. Right?  So to me,=
=20
>> this is a logical component of an autonomic network that sits on top=20
>> of the AN infrastructure.
>>> Do we agree?
>>> Michael
>>>
>>> From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
>>> Sent: 13 October 2015 23:46
>>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
>>> <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'
>>> <dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>;
>>> 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'
>>> <jiangsheng@huawei.com<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>>;
>>> 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org'
>>> <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>;
>>> 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
>>> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>
>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>
>>> Michael,
>>> Appreciate the reply.
>>> FM is part of data plane and control plane (i.e. ANI in your diagram)=
=2E
>>> My plan is to add a short paragraph for now either to section 2 to=20
>>> expand
>> the description  of ANI or to section 4 to add a sub-section for Fault=
=20
>> Management.
>>>
>>> It is also possible too add a Performance Management section to=20
>>> describe
>> what types of measurements and where and how are used.  Although there=
=20
>> is a control feedback related measurement in the document, I don=E2=80=
=99t=20
>> know if it is adequate.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Mehmet
>>> From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 12:27 PM
>>> To: Toy, Mehmet
>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
>> chairs@tools.ietf.org'; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>
>>> Sorry for the delay, it=E2=80=99s very busy at the moment here.
>>> To me, fault management refers generally to faults on the data=20
>>> plane, ie for
>> user traffic. I see that happening at some point as an autonomic=20
>> function (or several, for different aspects). Would you agree? Or do=20
>> you see that as a function inside the AN infrastructure?
>>> So my feeling is that function would reside on top of the=20
>>> infrastructure that
>> we=E2=80=99re currently defining. So, please have a look whether your =
thoughts=20
>> can be described as an autonomic function. I think they probably can.
>>> Then I suggest we do the same that we=E2=80=99re planning to do with =
the NMS
>> section, the model discussion, etc: Have a short paragraph describe=20
>> the overall topic briefly, and point to an external doc for now, i.e.,=
=20
>> probably your draft.
>>> If you agree, can you suggest where in the reference model you would =

>>> add
>> a short paragraph about fault management, and I suppose we=E2=80=99d p=
oint to=20
>> your draft, right?
>>> Michael
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
>>> Sent: 13 October 2015 03:53
>>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
>>> <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'
>>> <dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>;
>>> 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'
>>> <jiangsheng@huawei.com<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>>;
>>> 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org'
>>> <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>;
>>> 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
>>> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>
>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>
>>> Mike,
>>> I am waiting for your response.
>>> Thanks
>>> Mehmet
>>>
>>> From: Toy, Mehmet
>>> Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 8:13 PM
>>> To: 'mbehring@cisco.com'
>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
>> chairs@tools.ietf.org'; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>
>>> Mike,
>>> I can send you some text to include in section 2 and 4 of  =E2=80=9CA=
=20
>>> Reference
>> Model for Autonomic Networking,   draft-behringer-anima-reference-
>> model-03=E2=80=9D,  per Sheng=E2=80=99s suggestion.
>>> Should I just do that?
>>> Thanks
>>> Mehmet
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Toy, Mehmet
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 7:53 AM
>>> To: 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org';
>> 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'; 'mbehring@cisco.com'
>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'
>>> Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks
>>>
>>> Sheng,
>>> Appreciate a quick response.
>>> I will work on your suggestion.
>>> Mehmet
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com]
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 06:08 AM Eastern Standard Time
>>> To: Toy, Mehmet;
>>> anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>
>>> <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>;
>>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
>>> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>;
>>> mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>
>>> <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
>>> Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
>>> (dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>)
>>> <dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>
>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>
>>> Hi, Toy,
>>> First of all, for my understanding, your work is in the scope of the =

>>> WG
>> charter. However, we do not have work item or milestone for it. It=20
>> looks like an upper-layer autonomic service agent for me. In our plan,=
=20
>> autonomic service agents are mainly for the next period, which is=20
>> after re-charter (this is the same with your suggestion of modifying=20
>> the charter, but it cannot happen until we deliver the current=20
>> milestones). For now, the best may be try to add some description,=20
>> maybe mainly abstracted functionality, into the reference model docume=
nt.
>>> Best regards,
>>> Sheng
>>>
>>> From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 1:14 AM
>>> To: anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>;
>>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>;
>>> mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>
>>> Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
>>> (dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>)
>>> Subject: Self-Managed Networks
>>>
>>> Dear All:
>>> I couldn=E2=80=99t attend the Prague meeting, but luckily Dan was abl=
e to=20
>>> present
>> my slides on =E2=80=9CSelf-Managed Networks with Fault Management Hier=
archy=E2=80=9D.
>> The feedback was to position the work in the ANIMA WG scope and=20
>> framework.
>>>
>>> ANIMA charter in =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et. al., A Reference Model fo=
r=20
>>> Autonomic
>> Networking
>>> draft-behringer-anima-reference-model-03=E2=80=9D refers to =E2=80=9C=
self-healing=E2=80=9D.
>> RFC7575,  =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et al.,   Autonomic Networking: Defin=
itions and
>> Design Goals=E2=80=9D,  refers to =E2=80=9Cself-management=E2=80=9D. H=
owever, both documents=20
>> do not  articulate fault management aspect of the self-management.  It=
=20
>> is possible to interpret the fault management aspect of autonomic=20
>> networks as part of =E2=80=9Cself-healing=E2=80=9D and therefore as pa=
rt of the ANIMA=20
>> charter.  In that case, the =E2=80=9CArchitectural Framework for Self-=
Managed=20
>> Networks with Fault Management Hierarchy,=20
>> draft-mtoy-anima-self-faultmang-framework-
>> 00.txt=E2=80=9D contribution can target to fill that gap.  The control=
 plane=20
>> aspect of self-healing is addressed by =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et al., =
An=20
>> Autonomic Control Plane,=20
>> draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane-03=E2=80=9D.  I believe =
these=20
>> contributions are complementary to each other. I can try to address th=
at in the contribution.
>>>
>>> Please let me know if you agree with me. If not, I suggest to modify =

>>> the
>> charter since without covering fault management aspect of the=20
>> autonomic networks, the concept of autonomic network will be incomplet=
e.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Mehmet
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


From nobody Fri Oct 16 00:42:34 2015
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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
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Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-addressing-02.txt
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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, "Toy, Mehmet" <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
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From nobody Fri Oct 16 03:53:17 2015
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To: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, "Toy, Mehmet" <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BBB558B@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <7145ab65268b4fb3b279e2ce9da1fdaa@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <cbc6f29eda114b848f3dac35609b2da8@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <9c8b64c962c443f19f6fd784cb9927a7@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <7512f6b600904c49838fcf729e3000a5@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <334e22acb30e487eb7f5a2d41fb54499@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <ff7789800a574fcb901e096a0a11f5bb@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <dd5a46abd24c49d2a9acd31a608ef7e8@VAADCEX37.cable.comcast.com> <14fdc79570b54d0e9562382c5d53a3ef@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <561EC845.9020505@gmail.com> <c1e45907707f42d3ae1e9beb0647a760@VAADCEX37.cable.comcast.com> <03347fe65bce48e9ba28827f5c4c0624@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <c44ededa670e43588987bd30b2f68e88@VAADCEX37.cable.comcast.com> <562092DA.3070800@gmail.com> <fcc70f9268c746c786f49a7dd547cb7a@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com>
From: Laurent Ciavaglia <Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>
Organization: Alcatel-Lucent Bell Labs France
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
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Dear Michael, all,

I am not sure to fully understand what you mean by "The ACP is a control 
plane for *device* management."
In the abstract of the ACP draft, it is written that the ACP is the 
control plane for autonomic functions. Statement which I agree with.
If I try to interpret (please correct if I am wrong) "ACP for device" as 
stated above, it means that the ACP runs between devices (dubbed 
autonomic nodes) hosting autonomic functions (e.g. one or more ASAs).

To stress what Toerless mentioned in a previous message:
"1) easily, ideally autonomous downloadable agent/application infra.

Eg: I don't see any way that either vendors or operators could 
realistically build this framework if these components are tied into the 
classical router OS software delivery model where it takes months to 
validate a software update and more months to deploy it. If this can be 
downloaded, as separate apps then its so much easier to incrementally 
build/deploy it on a totally different deployment process."

I think it is important to support such flexibility for the deployment, 
and therefore:
     -to stress that the ACP runs between devices (dubbed autonomic 
nodes) hosting autonomic functions (e.g. one or more ASAs).
     -to allow ASAs to be deployed (and execute) on hosts different from 
the hosts/resources they are supposed to manage. of course, this model 
does not preclude ASAs to be directly hosted/integrated with the device.

HTH, best regards, Laurent.


On 16/10/2015 10:44, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
> Adding to Brian's response (which I agree with), and up-levelling the discussion a bit:
>
> Mehmet, I think there is a simple misunderstanding here. The ACP is a control plane for *device* management. A device can hold many contexts, as in NFV, but they are all managed in a single way. My feeling is we have a disconnect somewhere on this level, right?
>
> Michael
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]
>> Sent: 16 October 2015 08:02
>> To: Toy, Mehmet <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>; Michael Behringer
>> (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com>; anima@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks
>>
>> On 16/10/2015 16:36, Toy, Mehmet wrote:
>>> Michael,
>>>
>>> Before I pick each of your statement and express my thoughts, I would like
>> to ask more questions by picking your  statement " There is *one* ACP,
>> there are *many* autonomic functions on top.".   Assume we  start building
>> on this to see how far we can go, whether this holds for all cases or not, I
>> don't know.
>>> If we have two or more ACPs, what could go wrong?
>> Why would a domain need more than one ACP? (Certainly there might be a
>> transient situation after a temporary network partition where two ACPs
>> would "meet" and then need to merge; indeed the ACP needs to be self-
>> repairing in such cases.)
>>
>>> What is it that you are trying to do here? What is the purpose behind this
>> model?
>>
>> Provide a secure L3 between all autonomic nodes that is strictly independent
>> of the operational data plane. The purpose is to allow autonomic operations
>> to work regardless of anything else.
>>
>>> Furthermore, I suggest you to think about ETSI NFV model,
>>> "infrastructure" and "VNF" division of networks.  What is wrong in
>>> using that kind of model here which is a reasonable breakdown,
>> We aren't reinventing NFV, as far as I can tell. If there is a recent technical
>> overview of NFV, that would be interesting to see. But I don't believe that
>> Autonomic Service Agents are at all the same thing as VNFs.
>>
>>> instead of sticking with ACP  that is becoming very difficult to define?
>> Huh? draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane is still work in progress but it
>> seems very clearly defined to me. In sketching out how GRASP will be
>> implemented, I haven't hit any conceptual problems with the ACP, and its
>> main API will just be socket calls. The only complication I found is that it will
>> need to support the Advanced Socket API because of some special
>> requirements for link-local multicasts. Otherwise, it's just another virtual
>> (loopback) network interface.
>>
>> Regards
>>     Brian
>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Mehmet
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com]
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 4:57 AM
>>> To: Toy, Mehmet; Brian E Carpenter; anima@ietf.org
>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>
>>> Toy, thanks for raising those questions. Obviously, we're not doing a good
>> job yet in describing what the ACP is, and that needs to be fixed. And
>> obviously, we all need the same view to progress further. So this is a very
>> important discussion, and I really welcome it.
>>> Before formalising better text, let me see whether we get agreement on
>> the fundamental idea.
>>> In my head, there are two layers: The ACP, and on top of that the
>> Autonomic Functions:
>>> * The ACP is the "tool kit". It comprises various "mechanics", such as
>> negotiation, synchronisation, discovery of various sorts, messaging, etc.
>> Those are all based on a common addressing and naming concept.
>>> * Autonomic Functions use that tool kit to do something clever. In other
>> words, the true autonomic "intelligence" sits on that level.
>>> There is *one* ACP, there are *many* autonomic functions on top.
>>>
>>> One way to decide to which layer something belongs is to ask: "is this (1) a
>> generic functionality which many functions require, or is this (2) one specific
>> function?". If the answer is (1), it belongs into the ACP, if (2) it belongs into
>> an autonomic function.
>>> So, in this light, my understanding (!) of fault management is that
>>> this is an autonomic function, and would use common blocks of the
>>> underlying ACP. Conversely, it would not offer services to other
>>> autonomic functions on top. This is my way of thinking when I write
>>> "this is an autonomic function".  And I'm not 100% certain I
>>> understand what you're suggesting, so please chime in here! (And I
>>> haven't read your draft fully yet, sorry)
>>>
>>> Look at
>>> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-01.txt
>>> This draft describes "intelligence". In that case, a way to automatically
>> manage address space. Sections 2.2 and 2.3 explain which parameters and
>> information exchanges such a function would require. Sheng wrote this
>> document to explain how an autonomic function would use a common ACP.
>>> Probably we should take some off-line time in Yokohama to discuss this in a
>> small team?
>>> Michael
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Toy,
>> Mehmet
>>>> Sent: 15 October 2015 04:26
>>>> To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>; Michael
>>>> Behringer
>>>> (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com>; anima@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
>>>>
>>>> Michael and Brian,
>>>> Per Toerless suggestion, I am including ANIMA group into the discussion.
>>>>
>>>> I re-read the "A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking" document
>>>> and I am not clear about the definitions.
>>>>
>>>> a)  In the "A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking", ACP is
>>>> defined as "The Autonomic Control Plane is the summary of all
>>>> interactions of the Autonomic Networking Infrastructure with other
>> nodes and services.".
>>>> b) Brian, you write as " The ACP is common infrastructure for all
>>>> autonomic functions.(The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of course.)
>>>> The signaling protocol is also common infrastructure."
>>>>
>>>> Question: What is ACP? a or b or combination?
>>>>
>>>> c) Section 4 in the reference model document , "The Autonomic
>>>> Networking Infrastructure provides a layer of common  functionality
>>>> across an Autonomic Network.  It comprises "must implement" functions
>>>> and services, as well as extensions."
>>>> Question: What are the "must implement" functionalities?  How do you
>>>> define "must implement" functionalities?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Mehmet
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM
>>>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); Toy, Mehmet
>>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
>>>> chairs@tools.ietf.org'
>>>> Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks
>>>>
>>>> I agree with Michael. The ACP is common infrastructure for all
>>>> autonomic functions.
>>>> (The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of course.) The signaling
>>>> protocol is also common infrastructure.
>>>>
>>>>     Brian
>>>> On 15/10/2015 05:43, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>>>>> I would argue they are part of an autonomic function, which runs on
>>>>> top of
>>>> the ACP.
>>>>> There are really two different pieces here, and this is I think the
>>>>> confusion
>>>> here:
>>>>> -          The ACP is self-managing. It needs to do self-healing, and
>>>> automatically adapt to new situations. But to me, this isnâ€™t fault
>>>> management or performance management as an operator understands
>> it.
>>>>> -          The network has FM and PM function. Those could be (and should
>>>> be, imo) autonomic functions. Those run on top of the ACP.
>>>>> Bottom line: Iâ€™d like to keep the ACP itself as minimalistic and
>>>>> simple as we
>>>> possibly can. Functions like FM / PM belong into an autonomic function,
>> IMO.
>>>>> What do you think?
>>>>> Michael
>>>>> From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
>>>>> Sent: 14 October 2015 18:30
>>>>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com>
>>>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com' <dromasca@avaya.com>;
>>>> 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'
>>>>> <jiangsheng@huawei.com>; 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org'
>>>>> <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
>>>>> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
>>>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael,
>>>>> Instead of answering the question as Yes or No, let me give examples
>>>>> to
>>>> see what makes sense.
>>>>> Letâ€™s say in a data path, a router port is failed.  The router
>>>>> generates an AIS
>>>> (Alarm Indication Signal) and the receiving  end generates RDI
>>>> (remote Defect Indicator).  Both messages are generated by the
>> hardware, not by a
>>>> software or ACP.   As a result of this failure,  there would be packet loss.
>> The
>>>> hardware counts these losses, an ACP does not.
>>>>> For the FM and PM functions above, can we say they are part of an ACP?
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> Mehmet
>>>>> From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com]
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:34 AM
>>>>> To: Toy, Mehmet
>>>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
>>>> chairs@tools.ietf.org'; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
>>>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Toy,
>>>>> To understand better: To me, fault management *uses* the functions
>>>>> of
>>>> the AN infrastructure. It uses the ACP to communicate, maybe GRASP
>>>> for some signalling, might be influenced by Intent, etc. Right?  So
>>>> to me, this is a logical component of an autonomic network that sits
>>>> on top of the AN infrastructure.
>>>>> Do we agree?
>>>>> Michael
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
>>>>> Sent: 13 October 2015 23:46
>>>>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
>>>>> <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
>>>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'
>>>>> <dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>;
>>>>> 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'
>>>>> <jiangsheng@huawei.com<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>>;
>>>>> 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org'
>>>>> <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>;
>>>>> 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
>>>>> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>
>>>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael,
>>>>> Appreciate the reply.
>>>>> FM is part of data plane and control plane (i.e. ANI in your diagram).
>>>>> My plan is to add a short paragraph for now either to section 2 to
>>>>> expand
>>>> the description  of ANI or to section 4 to add a sub-section for
>>>> Fault Management.
>>>>> It is also possible too add a Performance Management section to
>>>>> describe
>>>> what types of measurements and where and how are used.  Although
>>>> there is a control feedback related measurement in the document, I
>>>> donâ€™t know if it is adequate.
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Mehmet
>>>>> From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com]
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 12:27 PM
>>>>> To: Toy, Mehmet
>>>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
>>>> chairs@tools.ietf.org'; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
>>>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry for the delay, itâ€™s very busy at the moment here.
>>>>> To me, fault management refers generally to faults on the data
>>>>> plane, ie for
>>>> user traffic. I see that happening at some point as an autonomic
>>>> function (or several, for different aspects). Would you agree? Or do
>>>> you see that as a function inside the AN infrastructure?
>>>>> So my feeling is that function would reside on top of the
>>>>> infrastructure that
>>>> weâ€™re currently defining. So, please have a look whether your
>>>> thoughts can be described as an autonomic function. I think they probably
>> can.
>>>>> Then I suggest we do the same that weâ€™re planning to do with the NMS
>>>> section, the model discussion, etc: Have a short paragraph describe
>>>> the overall topic briefly, and point to an external doc for now,
>>>> i.e., probably your draft.
>>>>> If you agree, can you suggest where in the reference model you would
>>>>> add
>>>> a short paragraph about fault management, and I suppose weâ€™d point to
>>>> your draft, right?
>>>>> Michael
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
>>>>> Sent: 13 October 2015 03:53
>>>>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
>>>>> <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
>>>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'
>>>>> <dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>;
>>>>> 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'
>>>>> <jiangsheng@huawei.com<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>>;
>>>>> 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org'
>>>>> <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>;
>>>>> 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
>>>>> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>
>>>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike,
>>>>> I am waiting for your response.
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> Mehmet
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Toy, Mehmet
>>>>> Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 8:13 PM
>>>>> To: 'mbehring@cisco.com'
>>>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
>>>> chairs@tools.ietf.org'; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
>>>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike,
>>>>> I can send you some text to include in section 2 and 4 of  â€œA
>>>>> Reference
>>>> Model for Autonomic Networking,   draft-behringer-anima-reference-
>>>> model-03â€�,  per Shengâ€™s suggestion.
>>>>> Should I just do that?
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> Mehmet
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Toy, Mehmet
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 7:53 AM
>>>>> To: 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org';
>>>> 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'; 'mbehring@cisco.com'
>>>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'
>>>>> Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks
>>>>>
>>>>> Sheng,
>>>>> Appreciate a quick response.
>>>>> I will work on your suggestion.
>>>>> Mehmet
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com]
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 06:08 AM Eastern Standard Time
>>>>> To: Toy, Mehmet;
>>>>> anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>
>>>>> <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>;
>>>>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
>>>>> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>;
>>>>> mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>
>>>>> <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
>>>>> Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
>>>>> (dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>)
>>>>> <dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>
>>>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi, Toy,
>>>>> First of all, for my understanding, your work is in the scope of the
>>>>> WG
>>>> charter. However, we do not have work item or milestone for it. It
>>>> looks like an upper-layer autonomic service agent for me. In our
>>>> plan, autonomic service agents are mainly for the next period, which
>>>> is after re-charter (this is the same with your suggestion of
>>>> modifying the charter, but it cannot happen until we deliver the
>>>> current milestones). For now, the best may be try to add some
>>>> description, maybe mainly abstracted functionality, into the reference
>> model document.
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>> Sheng
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 1:14 AM
>>>>> To: anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>;
>>>>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>;
>>>>> mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>
>>>>> Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
>>>>> (dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>)
>>>>> Subject: Self-Managed Networks
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear All:
>>>>> I couldnâ€™t attend the Prague meeting, but luckily Dan was able to
>>>>> present
>>>> my slides on â€œSelf-Managed Networks with Fault Management
>> Hierarchyâ€�.
>>>> The feedback was to position the work in the ANIMA WG scope and
>>>> framework.
>>>>> ANIMA charter in â€œM. Behringer, et. al., A Reference Model for
>>>>> Autonomic
>>>> Networking
>>>>> draft-behringer-anima-reference-model-03â€� refers to â€œself-healingâ€�.
>>>> RFC7575,  â€œM. Behringer, et al.,   Autonomic Networking: Definitions and
>>>> Design Goalsâ€�,  refers to â€œself-managementâ€�. However, both documents
>>>> do not  articulate fault management aspect of the self-management.
>>>> It is possible to interpret the fault management aspect of autonomic
>>>> networks as part of â€œself-healingâ€� and therefore as part of the ANIMA
>>>> charter.  In that case, the â€œArchitectural Framework for Self-Managed
>>>> Networks with Fault Management Hierarchy,
>>>> draft-mtoy-anima-self-faultmang-framework-
>>>> 00.txtâ€� contribution can target to fill that gap.  The control plane
>>>> aspect of self-healing is addressed by â€œM. Behringer, et al., An
>>>> Autonomic Control Plane,
>>>> draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane-03â€�.  I believe these
>>>> contributions are complementary to each other. I can try to address that
>> in the contribution.
>>>>> Please let me know if you agree with me. If not, I suggest to modify
>>>>> the
>>>> charter since without covering fault management aspect of the
>>>> autonomic networks, the concept of autonomic network will be
>> incomplete.
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Mehmet
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Anima mailing list
>>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima

-- 

Bien cordialement, Best regards,

*Laurent Ciavaglia*

Secure Cloud Networking

Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

phone: +33 160 402 636

email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 
<mailto:laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>

linkedin: laurentciavaglia <http://fr.linkedin.com/in/laurentciavaglia/>

address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France


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    <font face="Courier New">Dear Michael, all,<br>
      <br>
      I am not sure to fully understand what you mean by "The ACP is a
      control plane for *device* management."<br>
      In the abstract of the ACP draft, it is written that the ACP is
      the control plane for autonomic functions. Statement which I agree
      with.<br>
      If I try to interpret (please correct if I am wrong) "ACP for
      device" as stated above, it means that the ACP runs between
      devices (dubbed autonomic nodes) hosting autonomic functions (e.g.
      one or more ASAs).<br>
      <br>
      To stress what Toerless mentioned in a previous message:<br>
      "1) easily, ideally autonomous downloadable agent/application
      infra.<br>
      <br>
      Eg: I don't see any way that either vendors or operators could
      realistically build this framework if these components are tied
      into the classical router OS software delivery model where it
      takes months to validate a software update and more months to
      deploy it. If this can be downloaded, as separate apps then its so
      much easier to incrementally build/deploy it on a totally
      different deployment process."<br>
      <br>
      I think it is important to support such flexibility for the
      deployment, and therefore:<br>
      Â Â Â  -to stress that the ACP runs between devices (dubbed autonomic
      nodes) hosting autonomic functions (e.g. one or more ASAs).<br>
      Â Â Â  -to allow ASAs to be deployed (and execute) on hosts different
      from the hosts/resources they are supposed to manage. of course,
      this model does not preclude ASAs to be directly hosted/integrated
      with the device. <br>
      <br>
      HTH, best regards, Laurent.<br>
      <br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 16/10/2015 10:44, Michael Behringer
      (mbehring) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:fcc70f9268c746c786f49a7dd547cb7a@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Adding to Brian's response (which I agree with), and up-levelling the discussion a bit: 

Mehmet, I think there is a simple misunderstanding here. The ACP is a control plane for *device* management. A device can hold many contexts, as in NFV, but they are all managed in a single way. My feeling is we have a disconnect somewhere on this level, right? 

Michael

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">-----Original Message-----
From: Brian E Carpenter [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>]
Sent: 16 October 2015 08:02
To: Toy, Mehmet <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com">&lt;Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com&gt;</a>; Michael Behringer
(mbehring) <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">&lt;mbehring@cisco.com&gt;</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anima@ietf.org">anima@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks

On 16/10/2015 16:36, Toy, Mehmet wrote:
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">Michael,

Before I pick each of your statement and express my thoughts, I would like
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">to ask more questions by picking your  statement " There is *one* ACP,
there are *many* autonomic functions on top.".   Assume we  start building
on this to see how far we can go, whether this holds for all cases or not, I
don't know.
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">
If we have two or more ACPs, what could go wrong?
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">
Why would a domain need more than one ACP? (Certainly there might be a
transient situation after a temporary network partition where two ACPs
would "meet" and then need to merge; indeed the ACP needs to be self-
repairing in such cases.)

</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">What is it that you are trying to do here? What is the purpose behind this
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">model?

Provide a secure L3 between all autonomic nodes that is strictly independent
of the operational data plane. The purpose is to allow autonomic operations
to work regardless of anything else.

</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">
Furthermore, I suggest you to think about ETSI NFV model,
"infrastructure" and "VNF" division of networks.  What is wrong in
using that kind of model here which is a reasonable breakdown,
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">
We aren't reinventing NFV, as far as I can tell. If there is a recent technical
overview of NFV, that would be interesting to see. But I don't believe that
Autonomic Service Agents are at all the same thing as VNFs.

</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">instead of sticking with ACP  that is becoming very difficult to define?
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">
Huh? draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane is still work in progress but it
seems very clearly defined to me. In sketching out how GRASP will be
implemented, I haven't hit any conceptual problems with the ACP, and its
main API will just be socket calls. The only complication I found is that it will
need to support the Advanced Socket API because of some special
requirements for link-local multicasts. Otherwise, it's just another virtual
(loopback) network interface.

Regards
   Brian

</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">
Thanks
Mehmet

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mailto:mbehring@cisco.com</a>]
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 4:57 AM
To: Toy, Mehmet; Brian E Carpenter; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anima@ietf.org">anima@ietf.org</a>
Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks

Toy, thanks for raising those questions. Obviously, we're not doing a good
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">job yet in describing what the ACP is, and that needs to be fixed. And
obviously, we all need the same view to progress further. So this is a very
important discussion, and I really welcome it.
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">
Before formalising better text, let me see whether we get agreement on
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">the fundamental idea.
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">
In my head, there are two layers: The ACP, and on top of that the
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">Autonomic Functions:
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">
* The ACP is the "tool kit". It comprises various "mechanics", such as
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">negotiation, synchronisation, discovery of various sorts, messaging, etc.
Those are all based on a common addressing and naming concept.
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">
* Autonomic Functions use that tool kit to do something clever. In other
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">words, the true autonomic "intelligence" sits on that level.
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">
There is *one* ACP, there are *many* autonomic functions on top.

One way to decide to which layer something belongs is to ask: "is this (1) a
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">generic functionality which many functions require, or is this (2) one specific
function?". If the answer is (1), it belongs into the ACP, if (2) it belongs into
an autonomic function.
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">
So, in this light, my understanding (!) of fault management is that
this is an autonomic function, and would use common blocks of the
underlying ACP. Conversely, it would not offer services to other
autonomic functions on top. This is my way of thinking when I write
"this is an autonomic function".  And I'm not 100% certain I
understand what you're suggesting, so please chime in here! (And I
haven't read your draft fully yet, sorry)

Look at
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-01.txt">http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-01.txt</a>
This draft describes "intelligence". In that case, a way to automatically
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">manage address space. Sections 2.2 and 2.3 explain which parameters and
information exchanges such a function would require. Sheng wrote this
document to explain how an autonomic function would use a common ACP.
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">
Probably we should take some off-line time in Yokohama to discuss this in a
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">small team?
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">
Michael


</pre>
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <pre wrap="">-----Original Message-----
From: Anima [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Toy,
</pre>
          </blockquote>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">Mehmet
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <pre wrap="">Sent: 15 October 2015 04:26
To: Brian E Carpenter <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">&lt;brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com&gt;</a>; Michael
Behringer
(mbehring) <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">&lt;mbehring@cisco.com&gt;</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anima@ietf.org">anima@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks

Michael and Brian,
Per Toerless suggestion, I am including ANIMA group into the discussion.

I re-read the "A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking" document
and I am not clear about the definitions.

a)  In the "A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking", ACP is
defined as "The Autonomic Control Plane is the summary of all
interactions of the Autonomic Networking Infrastructure with other
</pre>
          </blockquote>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">nodes and services.".
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <pre wrap="">
b) Brian, you write as " The ACP is common infrastructure for all
autonomic functions.(The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of course.)
The signaling protocol is also common infrastructure."

Question: What is ACP? a or b or combination?

c) Section 4 in the reference model document , "The Autonomic
Networking Infrastructure provides a layer of common  functionality
across an Autonomic Network.  It comprises "must implement" functions
and services, as well as extensions."
Question: What are the "must implement" functionalities?  How do you
define "must implement" functionalities?

Thanks
Mehmet
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian E Carpenter [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>]
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM
To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); Toy, Mehmet
Cc: '<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a>'; '<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>'; 'anima-
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org">chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>'
Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks

I agree with Michael. The ACP is common infrastructure for all
autonomic functions.
(The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of course.) The signaling
protocol is also common infrastructure.

   Brian
On 15/10/2015 05:43, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
</pre>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <pre wrap="">I would argue they are part of an autonomic function, which runs on
top of
</pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre wrap="">the ACP.
</pre>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <pre wrap="">There are really two different pieces here, and this is I think the
confusion
</pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre wrap="">here:
</pre>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <pre wrap="">
-          The ACP is self-managing. It needs to do self-healing, and
</pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre wrap="">automatically adapt to new situations. But to me, this isnâ€™t fault
management or performance management as an operator understands
</pre>
          </blockquote>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">it.
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <pre wrap="">
-          The network has FM and PM function. Those could be (and should
</pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre wrap="">be, imo) autonomic functions. Those run on top of the ACP.
</pre>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <pre wrap="">Bottom line: Iâ€™d like to keep the ACP itself as minimalistic and
simple as we
</pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre wrap="">possibly can. Functions like FM / PM belong into an autonomic function,
</pre>
          </blockquote>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">IMO.
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <pre wrap="">What do you think?
Michael
From: Toy, Mehmet [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com">mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>]
Sent: 14 October 2015 18:30
To: Michael Behringer (mbehring) <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">&lt;mbehring@cisco.com&gt;</a>
Cc: '<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a>' <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">&lt;dromasca@avaya.com&gt;</a>;
</pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre wrap="">'<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>'
</pre>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <pre wrap=""><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">&lt;jiangsheng@huawei.com&gt;</a>; '<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>'
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">&lt;anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org&gt;</a>; '<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>'
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">&lt;brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com&gt;</a>
Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks

Michael,
Instead of answering the question as Yes or No, let me give examples
to
</pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre wrap="">see what makes sense.
</pre>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <pre wrap="">Letâ€™s say in a data path, a router port is failed.  The router
generates an AIS
</pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre wrap="">(Alarm Indication Signal) and the receiving  end generates RDI
(remote Defect Indicator).  Both messages are generated by the
</pre>
          </blockquote>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">hardware, not by a
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <pre wrap="">software or ACP.   As a result of this failure,  there would be packet loss.
</pre>
          </blockquote>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">The
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <pre wrap="">hardware counts these losses, an ACP does not.
</pre>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <pre wrap="">For the FM and PM functions above, can we say they are part of an ACP?
Thanks
Mehmet
From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mailto:mbehring@cisco.com</a>]
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:34 AM
To: Toy, Mehmet
Cc: '<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a>'; '<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>'; 'anima-
</pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre wrap=""><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org">chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>'; '<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>'
</pre>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <pre wrap="">Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks

Hi Toy,
To understand better: To me, fault management *uses* the functions
of
</pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre wrap="">the AN infrastructure. It uses the ACP to communicate, maybe GRASP
for some signalling, might be influenced by Intent, etc. Right?  So
to me, this is a logical component of an autonomic network that sits
on top of the AN infrastructure.
</pre>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <pre wrap="">Do we agree?
Michael

From: Toy, Mehmet [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com">mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>]
Sent: 13 October 2015 23:46
To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
&lt;<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">&lt;mailto:mbehring@cisco.com&gt;</a>&gt;
Cc: '<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a>'
&lt;<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">&lt;mailto:dromasca@avaya.com&gt;</a>&gt;;
'<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>'
&lt;<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">&lt;mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com&gt;</a>&gt;;
'<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>'
&lt;<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">&lt;mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org&gt;</a>&gt;;
'<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>'
&lt;<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">&lt;mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com&gt;</a>&gt;
Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks

Michael,
Appreciate the reply.
FM is part of data plane and control plane (i.e. ANI in your diagram).
My plan is to add a short paragraph for now either to section 2 to
expand
</pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre wrap="">the description  of ANI or to section 4 to add a sub-section for
Fault Management.
</pre>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <pre wrap="">
It is also possible too add a Performance Management section to
describe
</pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre wrap="">what types of measurements and where and how are used.  Although
there is a control feedback related measurement in the document, I
donâ€™t know if it is adequate.
</pre>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <pre wrap="">
Regards,
Mehmet
From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mailto:mbehring@cisco.com</a>]
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 12:27 PM
To: Toy, Mehmet
Cc: '<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a>'; '<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>'; 'anima-
</pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre wrap=""><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org">chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>'; '<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>'
</pre>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <pre wrap="">Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks

Sorry for the delay, itâ€™s very busy at the moment here.
To me, fault management refers generally to faults on the data
plane, ie for
</pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre wrap="">user traffic. I see that happening at some point as an autonomic
function (or several, for different aspects). Would you agree? Or do
you see that as a function inside the AN infrastructure?
</pre>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <pre wrap="">So my feeling is that function would reside on top of the
infrastructure that
</pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre wrap="">weâ€™re currently defining. So, please have a look whether your
thoughts can be described as an autonomic function. I think they probably
</pre>
          </blockquote>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">can.
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <pre wrap="">Then I suggest we do the same that weâ€™re planning to do with the NMS
</pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre wrap="">section, the model discussion, etc: Have a short paragraph describe
the overall topic briefly, and point to an external doc for now,
i.e., probably your draft.
</pre>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <pre wrap="">If you agree, can you suggest where in the reference model you would
add
</pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre wrap="">a short paragraph about fault management, and I suppose weâ€™d point to
your draft, right?
</pre>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <pre wrap="">Michael


From: Toy, Mehmet [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com">mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>]
Sent: 13 October 2015 03:53
To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
&lt;<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">&lt;mailto:mbehring@cisco.com&gt;</a>&gt;
Cc: '<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a>'
&lt;<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">&lt;mailto:dromasca@avaya.com&gt;</a>&gt;;
'<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>'
&lt;<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">&lt;mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com&gt;</a>&gt;;
'<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>'
&lt;<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">&lt;mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org&gt;</a>&gt;;
'<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>'
&lt;<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">&lt;mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com&gt;</a>&gt;
Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks

Mike,
I am waiting for your response.
Thanks
Mehmet

From: Toy, Mehmet
Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 8:13 PM
To: '<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a>'
Cc: '<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a>'; '<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>'; 'anima-
</pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre wrap=""><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org">chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>'; '<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>'
</pre>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <pre wrap="">Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks

Mike,
I can send you some text to include in section 2 and 4 of  â€œA
Reference
</pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre wrap="">Model for Autonomic Networking,   draft-behringer-anima-reference-
model-03â€�,  per Shengâ€™s suggestion.
</pre>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <pre wrap="">Should I just do that?
Thanks
Mehmet


From: Toy, Mehmet
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 7:53 AM
To: '<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>'; '<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>';
</pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre wrap="">'<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>'; '<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a>'
</pre>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <pre wrap="">Cc: '<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a>'
Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks

Sheng,
Appreciate a quick response.
I will work on your suggestion.
Mehmet


From: Sheng Jiang [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>]
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 06:08 AM Eastern Standard Time
To: Toy, Mehmet;
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">&lt;mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org&gt;</a>
&lt;<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">&lt;mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org&gt;</a>&gt;;
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">&lt;mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com&gt;</a>
&lt;<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">&lt;mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com&gt;</a>&gt;;
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">&lt;mailto:mbehring@cisco.com&gt;</a>
&lt;<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">&lt;mailto:mbehring@cisco.com&gt;</a>&gt;
Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
(<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">&lt;mailto:dromasca@avaya.com&gt;</a>)
&lt;<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">&lt;mailto:dromasca@avaya.com&gt;</a>&gt;
Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks

Hi, Toy,
First of all, for my understanding, your work is in the scope of the
WG
</pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre wrap="">charter. However, we do not have work item or milestone for it. It
looks like an upper-layer autonomic service agent for me. In our
plan, autonomic service agents are mainly for the next period, which
is after re-charter (this is the same with your suggestion of
modifying the charter, but it cannot happen until we deliver the
current milestones). For now, the best may be try to add some
description, maybe mainly abstracted functionality, into the reference
</pre>
          </blockquote>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">model document.
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <pre wrap="">Best regards,
Sheng

From: Toy, Mehmet [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com">mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>]
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 1:14 AM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">&lt;mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org&gt;</a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">&lt;mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com&gt;</a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">&lt;mailto:mbehring@cisco.com&gt;</a>
Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
(<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">&lt;mailto:dromasca@avaya.com&gt;</a>)
Subject: Self-Managed Networks

Dear All:
I couldnâ€™t attend the Prague meeting, but luckily Dan was able to
present
</pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre wrap="">my slides on â€œSelf-Managed Networks with Fault Management
</pre>
          </blockquote>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">Hierarchyâ€�.
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <pre wrap="">The feedback was to position the work in the ANIMA WG scope and
framework.
</pre>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <pre wrap="">
ANIMA charter in â€œM. Behringer, et. al., A Reference Model for
Autonomic
</pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre wrap="">Networking
</pre>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <pre wrap="">draft-behringer-anima-reference-model-03â€� refers to â€œself-healingâ€�.
</pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre wrap="">RFC7575,  â€œM. Behringer, et al.,   Autonomic Networking: Definitions and
Design Goalsâ€�,  refers to â€œself-managementâ€�. However, both documents
do not  articulate fault management aspect of the self-management.
It is possible to interpret the fault management aspect of autonomic
networks as part of â€œself-healingâ€� and therefore as part of the ANIMA
charter.  In that case, the â€œArchitectural Framework for Self-Managed
Networks with Fault Management Hierarchy,
draft-mtoy-anima-self-faultmang-framework-
00.txtâ€� contribution can target to fill that gap.  The control plane
aspect of self-healing is addressed by â€œM. Behringer, et al., An
Autonomic Control Plane,
draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane-03â€�.  I believe these
contributions are complementary to each other. I can try to address that
</pre>
          </blockquote>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">in the contribution.
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <pre wrap="">
Please let me know if you agree with me. If not, I suggest to modify
the
</pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre wrap="">charter since without covering fault management aspect of the
autonomic networks, the concept of autonomic network will be
</pre>
          </blockquote>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">incomplete.
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <pre wrap="">
Regards,
Mehmet


</pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre wrap="">

_______________________________________________
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<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a>
</pre>
          </blockquote>
        </blockquote>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
_______________________________________________
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<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a>
</pre>
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From nobody Fri Oct 16 03:59:19 2015
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To: <reddy.pallavali@ulusofona.pt>, "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BBB558B@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <7145ab65268b4fb3b279e2ce9da1fdaa@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <cbc6f29eda114b848f3dac35609b2da8@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <9c8b64c962c443f19f6fd784cb9927a7@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <7512f6b600904c49838fcf729e3000a5@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <334e22acb30e487eb7f5a2d41fb54499@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <ff7789800a574fcb901e096a0a11f5bb@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <dd5a46abd24c49d2a9acd31a608ef7e8@VAADCEX37.cable.comcast.com> <14fdc79570b54d0e9562382c5d53a3ef@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <561EC845.9020505@gmail.com> <c1e45907707f42d3ae1e9beb0647a760@VAADCEX37.cable.comcast.com> <03347fe65bce48e9ba28827f5c4c0624@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <CAC0HMNTbO3GyPZTvKu_3ggyUjrN07asN4Cwnr9u67=r-4VoSOA@mail.gmail.com> <67d5c9f5bf374fe397bff706846d9195@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <CAC0HMNRG3mhvVbkfvQ2UPXn5w5LF9ir1zOOTn0=r1ohmzY8Wtw@mail.gmail.com>
From: Laurent Ciavaglia <Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>
Organization: Alcatel-Lucent Bell Labs France
Message-ID: <5620D870.5040403@alcatel-lucent.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 12:58:56 +0200
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
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Dear Reddy,

The issue you raise is inline with the coordination functionality that 
has been introduced at Dallas.
You may take a look at: 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ciavaglia-anima-coordination/ (an 
update is under progress)
The draft tries to define what should (must?) be designed so that the 
autonomic entities can (co-)operate harmoniously, can arbitrate 
conflicts/interactions...
Consensus-based approaches are surely in scope, although we have chosen 
to leave the actual algorithms/methods outside of the initial document.

Best regards, Laurent.


On 15/10/2015 12:03, Reddy Pallavali wrote:
> Many thanks for your kind reply,
>
> Recently i joined in IETF - ANIMA group, so i do not know about IETF - 
> Yokohama; I will look into that.
>
> Since, the networks are fully distributed, asynchronous, heterogeneous 
> and dynamic, as i understood.
>
> Consensus relay convergence time, robustness, and fault-tolerance 
> against failures (e.g. termination, validation, integrity and agreement).
>
> For instance, in ACP, the autonomic functions have to fulfill their 
> individual goals and also must cooperate their behaviour towards 
> global goal of the entire network. Meaning that autonomic functions 
> such as, energy efficiency, load balancing, scalability, availability 
> conflicts with each other based on users mobility. The energy 
> efficiency function conflicts with availability and mobility; also 
> with load balancing; since adaptively micro, macro, and pico cells 
> have to adjust their functionalities in the mean time have to serve 
> all its objects under their signals. So, there is a need of 
> coordinated function (consensus state), that maximizes individual and 
> global goals by reducing conflicts between them.
>
> We have Swarm and Artificial Intelligence techniques to reach 
> consensus state in a dynamic situation, since they will learn the past 
> and anticipate the future by prediction.
>
> I hope it works better for bottom-up approach, as you mentioned this 
> groups focus is also bottom-up.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:27 AM, Michael Behringer (mbehring) 
> <mbehring@cisco.com <mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>> wrote:
>
>     Hi Reddy,
>
>     Thanks for chiming in!  Nice to get some fresh view on our work.
>
>     I’m not sure consensus is “instead” of synchronisation, I think
>     those are two different things. Synchronisation just keeps the
>     state on some devices in sync, consensus is to me a specific form
>     of negotiation.
>
>     In this working group we’re very focused on a bottom-up approach,
>     i.e., first understand small building blocks and how we can use
>     them, later plug them together in a wider framework. The approach
>     is use-case driven, in other words, for everything we do we’d like
>     a clear example on how this would be used in a running network.
>
>     Can you give us an example on how consensus could be used in
>     today’s networks? The simpler the example, the better. We are
>     looking to understand how a network function would use consensus
>     in a concrete situation.
>
>     Once we understand the use case, we can see how and where to bring
>     it in.
>
>     Will you be at the IETF in Yokohama? If so, we should meet and
>     discuss.
>
>     Michael
>
>     *From:*Reddy Pallavali [mailto:f80077@ulusofona.pt
>     <mailto:f80077@ulusofona.pt>]
>     *Sent:* 15 October 2015 11:08
>     *To:* Michael Behringer (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com
>     <mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
>     *Cc:* Toy, Mehmet <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com
>     <mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>>; Brian E Carpenter
>     <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com
>     <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>; anima@ietf.org
>     <mailto:anima@ietf.org>
>
>
>     *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
>
>     Hi,
>
>     I am new to this mailing list, and junior researcher from
>     COPELABS, Lisbon.
>
>     I have one suggestion when it comes to ACP toolkit - instead of
>     using synchronization, can use consensus?
>
>     Since, synchronization is more towards centralized "Coordinator
>     initiate to agree on something (towards centralized), and others
>     have to adjust their state".
>
>     When it comes to consensus "individual neighbors come to global
>     intelligence by simple communication rules (fully distributed),
>     and majority opinion is valid".
>
>     My PhD thesis area is on Consensus so, i can contribute this section.
>
>     On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 9:57 AM, Michael Behringer (mbehring)
>     <mbehring@cisco.com <mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>> wrote:
>
>         Toy, thanks for raising those questions. Obviously, we're not
>         doing a good job yet in describing what the ACP is, and that
>         needs to be fixed. And obviously, we all need the same view to
>         progress further. So this is a very important discussion, and
>         I really welcome it.
>
>         Before formalising better text, let me see whether we get
>         agreement on the fundamental idea.
>
>         In my head, there are two layers: The ACP, and on top of that
>         the Autonomic Functions:
>
>         * The ACP is the "tool kit". It comprises various "mechanics",
>         such as negotiation, synchronisation, discovery of various
>         sorts, messaging, etc. Those are all based on a common
>         addressing and naming concept.
>
>         * Autonomic Functions use that tool kit to do something
>         clever. In other words, the true autonomic "intelligence" sits
>         on that level.
>
>         There is *one* ACP, there are *many* autonomic functions on top.
>
>         One way to decide to which layer something belongs is to ask:
>         "is this (1) a generic functionality which many functions
>         require, or is this (2) one specific function?". If the answer
>         is (1), it belongs into the ACP, if (2) it belongs into an
>         autonomic function.
>
>         So, in this light, my understanding (!) of fault management is
>         that this is an autonomic function, and would use common
>         blocks of the underlying ACP. Conversely, it would not offer
>         services to other autonomic functions on top. This is my way
>         of thinking when I write "this is an autonomic function".  And
>         I'm not 100% certain I understand what you're suggesting, so
>         please chime in here! (And I haven't read your draft fully
>         yet, sorry)
>
>         Look at
>         http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-01.txt
>         This draft describes "intelligence". In that case, a way to
>         automatically manage address space. Sections 2.2 and 2.3
>         explain which parameters and information exchanges such a
>         function would require. Sheng wrote this document to explain
>         how an autonomic function would use a common ACP.
>
>         Probably we should take some off-line time in Yokohama to
>         discuss this in a small team?
>
>         Michael
>
>
>
>         > -----Original Message-----
>         > From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org
>         <mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Toy, Mehmet
>         > Sent: 15 October 2015 04:26
>         > To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com
>         <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>; Michael Behringer
>         > (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com <mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>;
>         anima@ietf.org <mailto:anima@ietf.org>
>         > Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
>         >
>         > Michael and Brian,
>         > Per Toerless suggestion, I am including ANIMA group into the
>         discussion.
>         >
>         > I re-read the "A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking"
>         document and
>         > I am not clear about the definitions.
>         >
>         > a)  In the "A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking", ACP
>         is defined as
>         > "The Autonomic Control Plane is the summary of all
>         interactions of the
>         > Autonomic Networking Infrastructure with other nodes and
>         services.".
>         >
>         > b) Brian, you write as " The ACP is common infrastructure
>         for all autonomic
>         > functions.(The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of course.)
>         The signaling
>         > protocol is also common infrastructure."
>         >
>         > Question: What is ACP? a or b or combination?
>         >
>         > c) Section 4 in the reference model document , "The
>         Autonomic Networking
>         > Infrastructure provides a layer of common  functionality
>         across an Autonomic
>         > Network.  It comprises "must implement" functions and
>         services, as well as
>         > extensions."
>         > Question: What are the "must implement" functionalities? 
>         How do you
>         > define "must implement" functionalities?
>         >
>         > Thanks
>         > Mehmet
>         > -----Original Message-----
>         > From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com
>         <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>]
>         > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM
>         > To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); Toy, Mehmet
>         > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com <mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>';
>         'jiangsheng@huawei.com <mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>'; 'anima-
>         > chairs@tools.ietf.org <mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org>'
>         > Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks
>         >
>         > I agree with Michael. The ACP is common infrastructure for
>         all autonomic
>         > functions.
>         > (The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of course.) The
>         signaling protocol is also
>         > common infrastructure.
>         >
>         >    Brian
>         > On 15/10/2015 05:43, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>         > > I would argue they are part of an autonomic function,
>         which runs on top of
>         > the ACP.
>         > > There are really two different pieces here, and this is I
>         think the confusion
>         > here:
>         > >
>         > > -          The ACP is self-managing. It needs to do
>         self-healing, and
>         > automatically adapt to new situations. But to me, this isn’t
>         fault management
>         > or performance management as an operator understands it.
>         > >
>         > > -          The network has FM and PM function. Those could
>         be (and should
>         > be, imo) autonomic functions. Those run on top of the ACP.
>         > > Bottom line: I’d like to keep the ACP itself as
>         minimalistic and simple as we
>         > possibly can. Functions like FM / PM belong into an
>         autonomic function, IMO.
>         > > What do you think?
>         > > Michael
>         > > From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com
>         <mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>]
>         > > Sent: 14 October 2015 18:30
>         > > To: Michael Behringer (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com
>         <mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
>         > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com <mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>'
>         <dromasca@avaya.com <mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>;
>         > 'jiangsheng@huawei.com <mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>'
>         > > <jiangsheng@huawei.com <mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>>;
>         'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org <mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>'
>         > > <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org
>         <mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>;
>         'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>'
>         > > <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com
>         <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>
>         > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>         > >
>         > > Michael,
>         > > Instead of answering the question as Yes or No, let me
>         give examples to
>         > see what makes sense.
>         > > Let’s say in a data path, a router port is failed. The
>         router generates an AIS
>         > (Alarm Indication Signal) and the receiving  end generates
>         RDI (remote
>         > Defect Indicator).  Both messages are generated by the
>         hardware, not by a
>         > software or ACP.   As a result of this failure,  there would
>         be packet loss. The
>         > hardware counts these losses, an ACP does not.
>         > > For the FM and PM functions above, can we say they are
>         part of an ACP?
>         > > Thanks
>         > > Mehmet
>         > > From: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
>         [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com <mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>]
>         > > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:34 AM
>         > > To: Toy, Mehmet
>         > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com <mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>';
>         'jiangsheng@huawei.com <mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>'; 'anima-
>         > chairs@tools.ietf.org <mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org>';
>         'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>'
>         > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>         > >
>         > > Hi Toy,
>         > > To understand better: To me, fault management *uses* the
>         functions of
>         > the AN infrastructure. It uses the ACP to communicate, maybe
>         GRASP for
>         > some signalling, might be influenced by Intent, etc. Right?
>         So to me, this is a
>         > logical component of an autonomic network that sits on top
>         of the AN
>         > infrastructure.
>         > > Do we agree?
>         > > Michael
>         > >
>         > > From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com
>         <mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>]
>         > > Sent: 13 October 2015 23:46
>         > > To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
>         > > <mbehring@cisco.com
>         <mailto:mbehring@cisco.com><mailto:mbehring@cisco.com
>         <mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>>
>         > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com <mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>'
>         > > <dromasca@avaya.com
>         <mailto:dromasca@avaya.com><mailto:dromasca@avaya.com
>         <mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>>;
>         > > 'jiangsheng@huawei.com <mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>'
>         > > <jiangsheng@huawei.com
>         <mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com><mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com
>         <mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>>>;
>         > > 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org
>         <mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>'
>         > > <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org
>         <mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org><mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org
>         <mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>>;
>         > > 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com
>         <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>'
>         > > <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com
>         <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com><mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com
>         <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>>
>         > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>         > >
>         > > Michael,
>         > > Appreciate the reply.
>         > > FM is part of data plane and control plane (i.e. ANI in
>         your diagram).
>         > > My plan is to add a short paragraph for now either to
>         section 2 to expand
>         > the description  of ANI or to section 4 to add a sub-section
>         for Fault
>         > Management.
>         > >
>         > > It is also possible too add a Performance Management
>         section to describe
>         > what types of measurements and where and how are used.
>         Although there
>         > is a control feedback related measurement in the document, I
>         don’t know if
>         > it is adequate.
>         > >
>         > > Regards,
>         > > Mehmet
>         > > From: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
>         [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com <mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>]
>         > > Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 12:27 PM
>         > > To: Toy, Mehmet
>         > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com <mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>';
>         'jiangsheng@huawei.com <mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>'; 'anima-
>         > chairs@tools.ietf.org <mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org>';
>         'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>'
>         > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>         > >
>         > > Sorry for the delay, it’s very busy at the moment here.
>         > > To me, fault management refers generally to faults on the
>         data plane, ie for
>         > user traffic. I see that happening at some point as an
>         autonomic function (or
>         > several, for different aspects). Would you agree? Or do you
>         see that as a
>         > function inside the AN infrastructure?
>         > > So my feeling is that function would reside on top of the
>         infrastructure that
>         > we’re currently defining. So, please have a look whether
>         your thoughts can
>         > be described as an autonomic function. I think they probably
>         can.
>         > > Then I suggest we do the same that we’re planning to do
>         with the NMS
>         > section, the model discussion, etc: Have a short paragraph
>         describe the
>         > overall topic briefly, and point to an external doc for now,
>         i.e., probably your
>         > draft.
>         > > If you agree, can you suggest where in the reference model
>         you would add
>         > a short paragraph about fault management, and I suppose we’d
>         point to your
>         > draft, right?
>         > > Michael
>         > >
>         > >
>         > > From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com
>         <mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>]
>         > > Sent: 13 October 2015 03:53
>         > > To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
>         > > <mbehring@cisco.com
>         <mailto:mbehring@cisco.com><mailto:mbehring@cisco.com
>         <mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>>
>         > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com <mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>'
>         > > <dromasca@avaya.com
>         <mailto:dromasca@avaya.com><mailto:dromasca@avaya.com
>         <mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>>;
>         > > 'jiangsheng@huawei.com <mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>'
>         > > <jiangsheng@huawei.com
>         <mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com><mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com
>         <mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>>>;
>         > > 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org
>         <mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>'
>         > > <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org
>         <mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org><mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org
>         <mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>>;
>         > > 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com
>         <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>'
>         > > <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com
>         <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com><mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com
>         <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>>
>         > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>         > >
>         > > Mike,
>         > > I am waiting for your response.
>         > > Thanks
>         > > Mehmet
>         > >
>         > > From: Toy, Mehmet
>         > > Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 8:13 PM
>         > > To: 'mbehring@cisco.com <mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>'
>         > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com <mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>';
>         'jiangsheng@huawei.com <mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>'; 'anima-
>         > chairs@tools.ietf.org <mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org>';
>         'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>'
>         > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>         > >
>         > > Mike,
>         > > I can send you some text to include in section 2 and 4 of
>         “A Reference
>         > Model for Autonomic Networking,
>          draft-behringer-anima-reference-
>         > model-03”,  per Sheng’s suggestion.
>         > > Should I just do that?
>         > > Thanks
>         > > Mehmet
>         > >
>         > >
>         > > From: Toy, Mehmet
>         > > Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 7:53 AM
>         > > To: 'jiangsheng@huawei.com
>         <mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>'; 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org
>         <mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>';
>         > 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com
>         <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>'; 'mbehring@cisco.com
>         <mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>'
>         > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com <mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>'
>         > > Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks
>         > >
>         > > Sheng,
>         > > Appreciate a quick response.
>         > > I will work on your suggestion.
>         > > Mehmet
>         > >
>         > >
>         > > From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com
>         <mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>]
>         > > Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 06:08 AM Eastern Standard
>         Time
>         > > To: Toy, Mehmet;
>         > > anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org
>         <mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org><mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org
>         <mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>
>         > > <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org
>         <mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org><mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org
>         <mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>>;
>         > > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com
>         <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com><mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com
>         <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>
>         > > <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com
>         <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com><mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com
>         <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>>;
>         > > mbehring@cisco.com
>         <mailto:mbehring@cisco.com><mailto:mbehring@cisco.com
>         <mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
>         > > <mbehring@cisco.com
>         <mailto:mbehring@cisco.com><mailto:mbehring@cisco.com
>         <mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>>
>         > > Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
>         > > (dromasca@avaya.com
>         <mailto:dromasca@avaya.com><mailto:dromasca@avaya.com
>         <mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>)
>         > > <dromasca@avaya.com
>         <mailto:dromasca@avaya.com><mailto:dromasca@avaya.com
>         <mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>>
>         > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>         > >
>         > > Hi, Toy,
>         > > First of all, for my understanding, your work is in the
>         scope of the WG
>         > charter. However, we do not have work item or milestone for
>         it. It looks like
>         > an upper-layer autonomic service agent for me. In our plan,
>         autonomic
>         > service agents are mainly for the next period, which is
>         after re-charter (this is
>         > the same with your suggestion of modifying the charter, but
>         it cannot
>         > happen until we deliver the current milestones). For now,
>         the best may be
>         > try to add some description, maybe mainly abstracted
>         functionality, into the
>         > reference model document.
>         > > Best regards,
>         > > Sheng
>         > >
>         > > From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com
>         <mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>]
>         > > Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 1:14 AM
>         > > To: anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org
>         <mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org><mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org
>         <mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>;
>         > > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com
>         <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com><mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com
>         <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>;
>         > > mbehring@cisco.com
>         <mailto:mbehring@cisco.com><mailto:mbehring@cisco.com
>         <mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
>         > > Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
>         > > (dromasca@avaya.com
>         <mailto:dromasca@avaya.com><mailto:dromasca@avaya.com
>         <mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>)
>         > > Subject: Self-Managed Networks
>         > >
>         > > Dear All:
>         > > I couldn’t attend the Prague meeting, but luckily Dan was
>         able to present
>         > my slides on “Self-Managed Networks with Fault Management
>         Hierarchy”.
>         > The feedback was to position the work in the ANIMA WG scope and
>         > framework.
>         > >
>         > > ANIMA charter in “M. Behringer, et. al., A Reference Model
>         for Autonomic
>         > Networking
>         > > draft-behringer-anima-reference-model-03” refers to
>         “self-healing”.
>         > RFC7575,  “M. Behringer, et al.,   Autonomic Networking:
>         Definitions and
>         > Design Goals”,  refers to “self-management”. However, both
>         documents do
>         > not  articulate fault management aspect of the
>         self-management.  It is
>         > possible to interpret the fault management aspect of
>         autonomic networks as
>         > part of “self-healing” and therefore as part of the ANIMA
>         charter.  In that
>         > case, the “Architectural Framework for Self-Managed Networks
>         with Fault
>         > Management Hierarchy, draft-mtoy-anima-self-faultmang-framework-
>         > 00.txt” contribution can target to fill that gap.  The
>         control plane aspect of
>         > self-healing is addressed by “M. Behringer, et al., An
>         Autonomic Control
>         > Plane, draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane-03”. I
>         believe these
>         > contributions are complementary to each other. I can try to
>         address that in
>         > the contribution.
>         > >
>         > > Please let me know if you agree with me. If not, I suggest
>         to modify the
>         > charter since without covering fault management aspect of
>         the autonomic
>         > networks, the concept of autonomic network will be incomplete.
>         > >
>         > > Regards,
>         > > Mehmet
>         > >
>         > >
>         >
>         >
>         > _______________________________________________
>         > Anima mailing list
>         > Anima@ietf.org <mailto:Anima@ietf.org>
>         > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>         _______________________________________________
>         Anima mailing list
>         Anima@ietf.org <mailto:Anima@ietf.org>
>         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>
>
>
>
>     -- 
>
>     Thank you very much for your time and consideration.
>
>     Yours sincerely,
>
>     P Radha Krishna Reddy, M.Sc, M.Tech,
>
>     Junior Researcher/Ph.D Student,
>
>     COPE LABS, Universidade Lusofona, Lisboa - Portugal.
>
>     Author of: Security Issues of Cloud Computing over General & IT Sector
>     Mobile: +351923095671 <tel:%2B351923095671>
>     www.prkreddy.webs.com <http://www.prkreddy.webs.com>
>     http://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Thank you very much for your time and consideration.
>
>
> Yours sincerely,
>
> P Radha Krishna Reddy, M.Sc, M.Tech,
>
> Junior Researcher/Ph.D Student,
>
> COPE LABS, Universidade Lusofona, Lisboa - Portugal.
>
> Author of: Security Issues of Cloud Computing over General & IT Sector
> Mobile: +351923095671
> www.prkreddy.webs.com
> http://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima

-- 

Bien cordialement, Best regards,

*Laurent Ciavaglia*

Secure Cloud Networking

Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

phone: +33 160 402 636

email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 
<mailto:laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>

linkedin: laurentciavaglia <http://fr.linkedin.com/in/laurentciavaglia/>

address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France


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    <font face="Courier New">Dear Reddy,<br>
      <br>
      The issue you raise is inline with the coordination functionality
      that has been introduced at Dallas.<br>
      You may take a look at:
      <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ciavaglia-anima-coordination/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ciavaglia-anima-coordination/</a>
      (an update is under progress)<br>
      The draft tries to define what should (must?) be designed so that
      the autonomic entities can (co-)operate harmoniously, can
      arbitrate conflicts/interactions...<br>
      Consensus-based approaches are surely in scope, although we have
      chosen to leave the actual algorithms/methods outside of the
      initial document.<br>
      <br>
      Best regards, Laurent.<br>
      <br>
    </font><br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 15/10/2015 12:03, Reddy Pallavali
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAC0HMNRG3mhvVbkfvQ2UPXn5w5LF9ir1zOOTn0=r1ohmzY8Wtw@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
        charset=windows-1252">
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          <div>
            <div>Many thanks for your kind reply,<br>
              <br>
            </div>
            <div>Recently i joined in IETF - ANIMA group, so i do not
              know about IETF - Yokohama; I will look into that.<br>
            </div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            Since, the networks are fully distributed, asynchronous,
            heterogeneous and dynamic, as i understood.<br>
            <br>
            Consensus relay convergence time, robustness, and
            fault-tolerance against failures (e.g. termination,
            validation, integrity and agreement).<br>
            <br>
          </div>
          For instance, in ACP, the autonomic functions have to fulfill
          their individual goals and also must cooperate their behaviour
          towards global goal of the entire network. Meaning that
          autonomic functions such as, energy efficiency, load
          balancing, scalability, availability conflicts with each other
          based on users mobility. The energy efficiency function
          conflicts with availability and mobility; also with load
          balancing; since adaptively micro, macro, and pico cells have
          to adjust their functionalities in the mean time have to serve
          all its objects under their signals. So, there is a need of
          coordinated function (consensus state), that maximizes
          individual and global goals by reducing conflicts between
          them. <br>
          <br>
        </div>
        <div>We have Swarm and Artificial Intelligence techniques to
          reach consensus state in a dynamic situation, since they will
          learn the past and anticipate the future by prediction. <br>
        </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>I hope it works better for bottom-up approach, as you
          mentioned this groups focus is also bottom-up. <br>
        </div>
        <div><br>
          <div class="">
          </div>
          <a moz-do-not-send="true" id="magicparlabel-500">
          </a></div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div><br>
          <br>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:27 AM,
          Michael Behringer (mbehring) <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a
              moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com"
              target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a></a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
            .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-GB">
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" size="2"
                    face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Hi
                      Reddy,
                    </span></font></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" size="2"
                    face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></font></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" size="2"
                    face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Thanks
                      for chiming in!  Nice to get some fresh view on
                      our work.
                    </span></font></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" size="2"
                    face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></font></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" size="2"
                    face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I’m
                      not sure consensus is “instead” of
                      synchronisation, I think those are two different
                      things. Synchronisation just keeps the state on
                      some devices in sync, consensus is to me a
                      specific form of negotiation.
                    </span></font></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" size="2"
                    face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></font></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" size="2"
                    face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">In
                      this working group we’re very focused on a
                      bottom-up approach, i.e., first understand small
                      building blocks and how we can use them, later
                      plug them together in a wider framework. The
                      approach is use-case driven, in other words, for
                      everything we do we’d like a clear example on how
                      this would be used in a running network.
                    </span></font></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" size="2"
                    face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></font></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" size="2"
                    face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Can
                      you give us an example on how consensus could be
                      used in today’s networks? The simpler the example,
                      the better. We are looking to understand how a
                      network function would use consensus in a concrete
                      situation.
                    </span></font></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" size="2"
                    face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></font></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" size="2"
                    face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Once
                      we understand the use case, we can see how and
                      where to bring it in.
                    </span></font></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" size="2"
                    face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></font></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" size="2"
                    face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Will
                      you be at the IETF in Yokohama? If so, we should
                      meet and discuss.
                    </span></font></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" size="2"
                    face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></font></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" size="2"
                    face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Michael</span></font></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" size="2"
                    face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></font></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#1f497d" size="2"
                    face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></font></p>
                <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
                  1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
                  <div>
                    <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1
                      1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2"
                            face="Calibri"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;font-weight:bold"
                              lang="EN-US">From:</span></font></b><font
                          size="2" face="Calibri"><span
                            style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"
                            lang="EN-US"> Reddy Pallavali [mailto:<a
                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                              href="mailto:f80077@ulusofona.pt"
                              target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:f80077@ulusofona.pt">f80077@ulusofona.pt</a></a>] <br>
                            <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b>
                            15 October 2015 11:08<span class=""><br>
                              <b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b>
                              Michael Behringer (mbehring) &lt;<a
                                moz-do-not-send="true"
                                href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com"
                                target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a></a>&gt;<br>
                            </span><b><span style="font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b>
                            Toy, Mehmet &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                              href="mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com"
                              target="_blank">Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>&gt;;
                            Brian E Carpenter &lt;<a
                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                              href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com"
                              target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a></a>&gt;;
                            <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                              href="mailto:anima@ietf.org"
                              target="_blank">anima@ietf.org</a></span></font></p>
                      <div>
                        <div class="h5"><font size="2" face="Calibri"><br>
                            <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b>
                            Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks</font></div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <div class="h5">
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times
                          New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span></font></p>
                      <div>
                        <div>
                          <div>
                            <div>
                              <div>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                                    style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font
                                      size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span
                                        style="font-size:12.0pt">Hi,</span></font></p>
                                </div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font
                                    size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span
                                      style="font-size:12.0pt">I am new
                                      to this mailing list, and junior
                                      researcher from COPELABS, Lisbon.</span></font></p>
                              </div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font
                                  size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span
                                    style="font-size:12.0pt">I have one
                                    suggestion when it comes to ACP
                                    toolkit - instead of using
                                    synchronization, can use consensus?</span></font></p>
                            </div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3"
                                face="Times New Roman"><span
                                  style="font-size:12.0pt">Since,
                                  synchronization is more towards
                                  centralized "Coordinator initiate to
                                  agree on something (towards
                                  centralized), and others have to
                                  adjust their state".
                                </span></font></p>
                          </div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font size="3"
                              face="Times New Roman"><span
                                style="font-size:12.0pt">When it comes
                                to consensus "individual neighbors come
                                to global intelligence by simple
                                communication rules (fully distributed),
                                and majority opinion is valid". </span></font></p>
                        </div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font size="3"
                            face="Times New Roman"><span
                              style="font-size:12.0pt">My PhD thesis
                              area is on Consensus so, i can contribute
                              this section.<br>
                              <br>
                            </span></font></p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times
                            New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span></font></p>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3"
                              face="Times New Roman"><span
                                style="font-size:12.0pt">On Thu, Oct 15,
                                2015 at 9:57 AM, Michael Behringer
                                (mbehring) &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                  href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com"
                                  target="_blank">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt;
                                wrote:</span></font></p>
                          <blockquote
                            style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc
                            1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
                            6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3"
                                face="Times New Roman"><span
                                  style="font-size:12.0pt">Toy, thanks
                                  for raising those questions.
                                  Obviously, we're not doing a good job
                                  yet in describing what the ACP is, and
                                  that needs to be fixed. And obviously,
                                  we all need the same view to progress
                                  further. So this is a very important
                                  discussion, and I really welcome it.<br>
                                  <br>
                                  Before formalising better text, let me
                                  see whether we get agreement on the
                                  fundamental idea.<br>
                                  <br>
                                  In my head, there are two layers: The
                                  ACP, and on top of that the Autonomic
                                  Functions:<br>
                                  <br>
                                  * The ACP is the "tool kit". It
                                  comprises various "mechanics", such as
                                  negotiation, synchronisation,
                                  discovery of various sorts, messaging,
                                  etc. Those are all based on a common
                                  addressing and naming concept.<br>
                                  <br>
                                  * Autonomic Functions use that tool
                                  kit to do something clever. In other
                                  words, the true autonomic
                                  "intelligence" sits on that level.<br>
                                  <br>
                                  There is *one* ACP, there are *many*
                                  autonomic functions on top.<br>
                                  <br>
                                  One way to decide to which layer
                                  something belongs is to ask: "is this
                                  (1) a generic functionality which many
                                  functions require, or is this (2) one
                                  specific function?". If the answer is
                                  (1), it belongs into the ACP, if (2)
                                  it belongs into an autonomic function.<br>
                                  <br>
                                  So, in this light, my understanding
                                  (!) of fault management is that this
                                  is an autonomic function, and would
                                  use common blocks of the underlying
                                  ACP. Conversely, it would not offer
                                  services to other autonomic functions
                                  on top. This is my way of thinking
                                  when I write "this is an autonomic
                                  function".  And I'm not 100% certain I
                                  understand what you're suggesting, so
                                  please chime in here! (And I haven't
                                  read your draft fully yet, sorry)<br>
                                  <br>
                                  Look at <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-01.txt"
                                    target="_blank">
http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-01.txt</a><br>
                                  This draft describes "intelligence".
                                  In that case, a way to automatically
                                  manage address space. Sections 2.2 and
                                  2.3 explain which parameters and
                                  information exchanges such a function
                                  would require. Sheng wrote this
                                  document to explain how an autonomic
                                  function would use a common ACP.<br>
                                  <br>
                                  Probably we should take some off-line
                                  time in Yokohama to discuss this in a
                                  small team?<br>
                                  <font color="#888888"><span
                                      style="color:#888888"><br>
                                      <span>Michael</span></span></font></span></font></p>
                            <div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3"
                                    face="Times New Roman"><span
                                      style="font-size:12.0pt"><br>
                                      <br>
                                      &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
                                      &gt; From: Anima [mailto:<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org">anima-bounces@ietf.org</a></a>]
                                      On Behalf Of Toy, Mehmet<br>
                                      &gt; Sent: 15 October 2015 04:26<br>
                                      &gt; To: Brian E Carpenter &lt;<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a></a>&gt;;
                                      Michael Behringer<br>
                                      &gt; (mbehring) &lt;<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a></a>&gt;;
                                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:anima@ietf.org"
                                        target="_blank">
                                        anima@ietf.org</a><br>
                                      &gt; Subject: Re: [Anima]
                                      Self-Managed Networks<br>
                                      &gt;<br>
                                      &gt; Michael and Brian,<br>
                                      &gt; Per Toerless suggestion, I am
                                      including ANIMA group into the
                                      discussion.<br>
                                      &gt;<br>
                                      &gt; I re-read the "A Reference
                                      Model for Autonomic Networking"
                                      document and<br>
                                      &gt; I am not clear about the
                                      definitions.<br>
                                      &gt;<br>
                                      &gt; a)  In the "A Reference Model
                                      for Autonomic Networking", ACP is
                                      defined as<br>
                                      &gt; "The Autonomic Control Plane
                                      is the summary of all interactions
                                      of the<br>
                                      &gt; Autonomic Networking
                                      Infrastructure with other nodes
                                      and services.".<br>
                                      &gt;<br>
                                      &gt; b) Brian, you write as " The
                                      ACP is common infrastructure for
                                      all autonomic<br>
                                      &gt; functions.(The ACP needs to
                                      be self-repairing, of course.) The
                                      signaling<br>
                                      &gt; protocol is also common
                                      infrastructure."<br>
                                      &gt;<br>
                                      &gt; Question: What is ACP? a or b
                                      or combination?<br>
                                      &gt;<br>
                                      &gt; c) Section 4 in the reference
                                      model document , "The Autonomic
                                      Networking<br>
                                      &gt; Infrastructure provides a
                                      layer of common  functionality
                                      across an Autonomic<br>
                                      &gt; Network.  It comprises "must
                                      implement" functions and services,
                                      as well as<br>
                                      &gt; extensions."<br>
                                      &gt; Question: What are the "must
                                      implement" functionalities?  How
                                      do you<br>
                                      &gt; define "must implement"
                                      functionalities?<br>
                                      &gt;<br>
                                      &gt; Thanks<br>
                                      &gt; Mehmet<br>
                                      &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
                                      &gt; From: Brian E Carpenter
                                      [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target="_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>]<br>
                                      &gt; Sent: Wednesday, October 14,
                                      2015 5:25 PM<br>
                                      &gt; To: Michael Behringer
                                      (mbehring); Toy, Mehmet<br>
                                      &gt; Cc: '<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a></a>';
                                      '<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com"
                                        target="_blank">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>';
                                      'anima-<br>
                                      &gt; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org"
                                        target="_blank">chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>'<br>
                                      &gt; Subject: Re: Self-Managed
                                      Networks<br>
                                      &gt;<br>
                                      &gt; I agree with Michael. The ACP
                                      is common infrastructure for all
                                      autonomic<br>
                                      &gt; functions.<br>
                                      &gt; (The ACP needs to be
                                      self-repairing, of course.) The
                                      signaling protocol is also<br>
                                      &gt; common infrastructure.<br>
                                      &gt;<br>
                                      &gt;    Brian<br>
                                      &gt; On 15/10/2015 05:43, Michael
                                      Behringer (mbehring) wrote:<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; I would argue they are
                                      part of an autonomic function,
                                      which runs on top of<br>
                                      &gt; the ACP.<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; There are really two
                                      different pieces here, and this is
                                      I think the confusion<br>
                                      &gt; here:<br>
                                      &gt; &gt;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; -          The ACP is
                                      self-managing. It needs to do
                                      self-healing, and<br>
                                      &gt; automatically adapt to new
                                      situations. But to me, this isn’t
                                      fault management<br>
                                      &gt; or performance management as
                                      an operator understands it.<br>
                                      &gt; &gt;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; -          The network
                                      has FM and PM function. Those
                                      could be (and should<br>
                                      &gt; be, imo) autonomic functions.
                                      Those run on top of the ACP.<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Bottom line: I’d like to
                                      keep the ACP itself as
                                      minimalistic and simple as we<br>
                                      &gt; possibly can. Functions like
                                      FM / PM belong into an autonomic
                                      function, IMO.<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; What do you think?<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Michael<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; From: Toy, Mehmet
                                      [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com" target="_blank">Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>]<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Sent: 14 October 2015
                                      18:30<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; To: Michael Behringer
                                      (mbehring) &lt;<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a></a>&gt;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Cc: '<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a></a>'
                                      &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com"
                                        target="_blank">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&gt;;<br>
                                      &gt; '<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com"
                                        target="_blank">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>'<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; &lt;<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a></a>&gt;;
                                      '<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org"
                                        target="_blank">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>'<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; &lt;<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a></a>&gt;;
                                      '<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com"
                                        target="_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>'<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; &lt;<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a></a>&gt;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Subject: RE:
                                      Self-Managed Networks<br>
                                      &gt; &gt;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Michael,<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Instead of answering the
                                      question as Yes or No, let me give
                                      examples to<br>
                                      &gt; see what makes sense.<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Let’s say in a data
                                      path, a router port is failed. 
                                      The router generates an AIS<br>
                                      &gt; (Alarm Indication Signal) and
                                      the receiving  end generates RDI
                                      (remote<br>
                                      &gt; Defect Indicator).  Both
                                      messages are generated by the
                                      hardware, not by a<br>
                                      &gt; software or ACP.   As a
                                      result of this failure,  there
                                      would be packet loss. The<br>
                                      &gt; hardware counts these losses,
                                      an ACP does not.<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; For the FM and PM
                                      functions above, can we say they
                                      are part of an ACP?<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Thanks<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Mehmet<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; From: Michael Behringer
                                      (mbehring) [mailto:<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a></a>]<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Sent: Wednesday, October
                                      14, 2015 11:34 AM<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; To: Toy, Mehmet<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Cc: '<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a></a>';
                                      '<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com"
                                        target="_blank">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>';
                                      'anima-<br>
                                      &gt; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org"
                                        target="_blank">chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>';
                                      '<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com"
                                        target="_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>'<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Subject: RE:
                                      Self-Managed Networks<br>
                                      &gt; &gt;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Hi Toy,<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; To understand better: To
                                      me, fault management *uses* the
                                      functions of<br>
                                      &gt; the AN infrastructure. It
                                      uses the ACP to communicate, maybe
                                      GRASP for<br>
                                      &gt; some signalling, might be
                                      influenced by Intent, etc. Right? 
                                      So to me, this is a<br>
                                      &gt; logical component of an
                                      autonomic network that sits on top
                                      of the AN<br>
                                      &gt; infrastructure.<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Do we agree?<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Michael<br>
                                      &gt; &gt;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; From: Toy, Mehmet
                                      [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com" target="_blank">Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>]<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Sent: 13 October 2015
                                      23:46<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; To: Michael Behringer
                                      (mbehring)<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; &lt;<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a></a>&lt;mailto:<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a></a>&gt;&gt;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Cc: '<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a></a>'<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; &lt;<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a></a>&lt;mailto:<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a></a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; '<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a></a>'<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; &lt;<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a></a>&lt;mailto:<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a></a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; '<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a></a>'<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; &lt;<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a></a>&lt;mailto:<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a></a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; '<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a></a>'<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; &lt;<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a></a>&lt;mailto:<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a></a>&gt;&gt;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Subject: RE:
                                      Self-Managed Networks<br>
                                      &gt; &gt;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Michael,<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Appreciate the reply.<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; FM is part of data plane
                                      and control plane (i.e. ANI in
                                      your diagram).<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; My plan is to add a
                                      short paragraph for now either to
                                      section 2 to expand<br>
                                      &gt; the description  of ANI or to
                                      section 4 to add a sub-section for
                                      Fault<br>
                                      &gt; Management.<br>
                                      &gt; &gt;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; It is also possible too
                                      add a Performance Management
                                      section to describe<br>
                                      &gt; what types of measurements
                                      and where and how are used. 
                                      Although there<br>
                                      &gt; is a control feedback related
                                      measurement in the document, I
                                      don’t know if<br>
                                      &gt; it is adequate.<br>
                                      &gt; &gt;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Regards,<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Mehmet<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; From: Michael Behringer
                                      (mbehring) [mailto:<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a></a>]<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Sent: Tuesday, October
                                      13, 2015 12:27 PM<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; To: Toy, Mehmet<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Cc: '<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a></a>';
                                      '<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com"
                                        target="_blank">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>';
                                      'anima-<br>
                                      &gt; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org"
                                        target="_blank">chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>';
                                      '<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com"
                                        target="_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>'<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Subject: RE:
                                      Self-Managed Networks<br>
                                      &gt; &gt;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Sorry for the delay,
                                      it’s very busy at the moment here.<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; To me, fault management
                                      refers generally to faults on the
                                      data plane, ie for<br>
                                      &gt; user traffic. I see that
                                      happening at some point as an
                                      autonomic function (or<br>
                                      &gt; several, for different
                                      aspects). Would you agree? Or do
                                      you see that as a<br>
                                      &gt; function inside the AN
                                      infrastructure?<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; So my feeling is that
                                      function would reside on top of
                                      the infrastructure that<br>
                                      &gt; we’re currently defining. So,
                                      please have a look whether your
                                      thoughts can<br>
                                      &gt; be described as an autonomic
                                      function. I think they probably
                                      can.<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Then I suggest we do the
                                      same that we’re planning to do
                                      with the NMS<br>
                                      &gt; section, the model
                                      discussion, etc: Have a short
                                      paragraph describe the<br>
                                      &gt; overall topic briefly, and
                                      point to an external doc for now,
                                      i.e., probably your<br>
                                      &gt; draft.<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; If you agree, can you
                                      suggest where in the reference
                                      model you would add<br>
                                      &gt; a short paragraph about fault
                                      management, and I suppose we’d
                                      point to your<br>
                                      &gt; draft, right?<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Michael<br>
                                      &gt; &gt;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; From: Toy, Mehmet
                                      [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com" target="_blank">Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>]<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Sent: 13 October 2015
                                      03:53<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; To: Michael Behringer
                                      (mbehring)<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; &lt;<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a></a>&lt;mailto:<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a></a>&gt;&gt;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Cc: '<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a></a>'<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; &lt;<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a></a>&lt;mailto:<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a></a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; '<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a></a>'<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; &lt;<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a></a>&lt;mailto:<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a></a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; '<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a></a>'<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; &lt;<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a></a>&lt;mailto:<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a></a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; '<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a></a>'<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; &lt;<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a></a>&lt;mailto:<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a></a>&gt;&gt;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Subject: RE:
                                      Self-Managed Networks<br>
                                      &gt; &gt;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Mike,<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; I am waiting for your
                                      response.<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Thanks<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Mehmet<br>
                                      &gt; &gt;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; From: Toy, Mehmet<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Sent: Friday, October
                                      09, 2015 8:13 PM<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; To: '<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a></a>'<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Cc: '<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a></a>';
                                      '<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com"
                                        target="_blank">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>';
                                      'anima-<br>
                                      &gt; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org"
                                        target="_blank">chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>';
                                      '<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com"
                                        target="_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>'<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Subject: RE:
                                      Self-Managed Networks<br>
                                      &gt; &gt;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Mike,<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; I can send you some text
                                      to include in section 2 and 4 of 
                                      “A Reference<br>
                                      &gt; Model for Autonomic
                                      Networking, 
                                       draft-behringer-anima-reference-<br>
                                      &gt; model-03”,  per Sheng’s
                                      suggestion.<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Should I just do that?<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Thanks<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Mehmet<br>
                                      &gt; &gt;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; From: Toy, Mehmet<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, October
                                      08, 2015 7:53 AM<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; To: '<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a></a>';
                                      '<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org"
                                        target="_blank">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>';<br>
                                      &gt; '<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com"
                                        target="_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>';
                                      '<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com"
                                        target="_blank">mbehring@cisco.com</a>'<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Cc: '<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a></a>'<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Subject: Re:
                                      Self-Managed Networks<br>
                                      &gt; &gt;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Sheng,<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Appreciate a quick
                                      response.<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; I will work on your
                                      suggestion.<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Mehmet<br>
                                      &gt; &gt;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; From: Sheng Jiang
                                      [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" target="_blank">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>]<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, October
                                      08, 2015 06:08 AM Eastern Standard
                                      Time<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; To: Toy, Mehmet;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; <a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a></a>&lt;mailto:<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a></a>&gt;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; &lt;<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a></a>&lt;mailto:<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a></a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; <a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a></a>&lt;mailto:<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a></a>&gt;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; &lt;<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a></a>&lt;mailto:<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a></a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; <a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a></a>&lt;mailto:<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a></a>&gt;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; &lt;<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a></a>&lt;mailto:<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a></a>&gt;&gt;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; (<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a></a>&lt;mailto:<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a></a>&gt;)<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; &lt;<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a></a>&lt;mailto:<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a></a>&gt;&gt;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Subject: RE:
                                      Self-Managed Networks<br>
                                      &gt; &gt;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Hi, Toy,<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; First of all, for my
                                      understanding, your work is in the
                                      scope of the WG<br>
                                      &gt; charter. However, we do not
                                      have work item or milestone for
                                      it. It looks like<br>
                                      &gt; an upper-layer autonomic
                                      service agent for me. In our plan,
                                      autonomic<br>
                                      &gt; service agents are mainly for
                                      the next period, which is after
                                      re-charter (this is<br>
                                      &gt; the same with your suggestion
                                      of modifying the charter, but it
                                      cannot<br>
                                      &gt; happen until we deliver the
                                      current milestones). For now, the
                                      best may be<br>
                                      &gt; try to add some description,
                                      maybe mainly abstracted
                                      functionality, into the<br>
                                      &gt; reference model document.<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Best regards,<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Sheng<br>
                                      &gt; &gt;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; From: Toy, Mehmet
                                      [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com" target="_blank">Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>]<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Sent: Tuesday, October
                                      06, 2015 1:14 AM<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; To: <a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a></a>&lt;mailto:<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a></a>&gt;;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; <a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a></a>&lt;mailto:<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a></a>&gt;;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; <a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a></a>&lt;mailto:<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a></a>&gt;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; (<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a></a>&lt;mailto:<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com"
                                        target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a></a>&gt;)<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Subject: Self-Managed
                                      Networks<br>
                                      &gt; &gt;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Dear All:<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; I couldn’t attend the
                                      Prague meeting, but luckily Dan
                                      was able to present<br>
                                      &gt; my slides on “Self-Managed
                                      Networks with Fault Management
                                      Hierarchy”.<br>
                                      &gt; The feedback was to position
                                      the work in the ANIMA WG scope and<br>
                                      &gt; framework.<br>
                                      &gt; &gt;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; ANIMA charter in “M.
                                      Behringer, et. al., A Reference
                                      Model for Autonomic<br>
                                      &gt; Networking<br>
                                      &gt; &gt;
                                      draft-behringer-anima-reference-model-03”
                                      refers to “self-healing”.<br>
                                      &gt; RFC7575,  “M. Behringer, et
                                      al.,   Autonomic Networking:
                                      Definitions and<br>
                                      &gt; Design Goals”,  refers to
                                      “self-management”. However, both
                                      documents do<br>
                                      &gt; not  articulate fault
                                      management aspect of the
                                      self-management.  It is<br>
                                      &gt; possible to interpret the
                                      fault management aspect of
                                      autonomic networks as<br>
                                      &gt; part of “self-healing” and
                                      therefore as part of the ANIMA
                                      charter.  In that<br>
                                      &gt; case, the “Architectural
                                      Framework for Self-Managed
                                      Networks with Fault<br>
                                      &gt; Management Hierarchy,
                                      draft-mtoy-anima-self-faultmang-framework-<br>
                                      &gt; 00.txt” contribution can
                                      target to fill that gap.  The
                                      control plane aspect of<br>
                                      &gt; self-healing is addressed by
                                      “M. Behringer, et al., An
                                      Autonomic Control<br>
                                      &gt; Plane,
                                      draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane-03”. 
                                      I believe these<br>
                                      &gt; contributions are
                                      complementary to each other. I can
                                      try to address that in<br>
                                      &gt; the contribution.<br>
                                      &gt; &gt;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Please let me know if
                                      you agree with me. If not, I
                                      suggest to modify the<br>
                                      &gt; charter since without
                                      covering fault management aspect
                                      of the autonomic<br>
                                      &gt; networks, the concept of
                                      autonomic network will be
                                      incomplete.<br>
                                      &gt; &gt;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Regards,<br>
                                      &gt; &gt; Mehmet<br>
                                      &gt; &gt;<br>
                                      &gt; &gt;<br>
                                      &gt;<br>
                                      &gt;<br>
                                      &gt;
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--------------040802050705010101010108--


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From: Duzongpeng <duzongpeng@huawei.com>
To: Laurent Ciavaglia <Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>, "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, "Toy, Mehmet" <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
Thread-Index: AQHRB+7q4g1bGYsEFEOnCvL47R1qS55ta6kAgACS5gA=
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 11:47:03 +0000
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Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 12:52:46 +0100
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From: Reddy Pallavali <f80077@ulusofona.pt>
To: "Toy, Mehmet" <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>
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Cc: "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, Paulo Mendes <paulo.mendes@ulusofona.pt>, "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
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Hello Toy,

As of my PhD thesis area is Consensus problem, i went through
synchronization as well. The time synchronization is a centralized
approach, that forces all objects to change their system timings to reach
their goal; while consensus is a fully distributed approach, all objects
have to agree on certain state: where the importance of convergence takes
place. Here, we can use SI or AI approaches to improve the convergence.

On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 5:04 AM, Toy, Mehmet <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>
wrote:

> Reddy,
>
> I believe =E2=80=9Csynchronization=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cconsensus=E2=80=
=9D words are applicable to
> different situations. You gave a good AI example for consensus.
>
> On the other hand  if we are talking timing relationship between two ends
> of  a  circuit emulation, we have to use =E2=80=9Csynchronization=E2=80=
=9D.
>
>
>
> In autonomous networks, we might be able to use both words depending on
> the situation.
>
> Thanks
>
> Mehmet
>
>
>
> *From:* Reddy Pallavali [mailto:f80077@ulusofona.pt]
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 15, 2015 6:03 AM
> *To:* Michael Behringer (mbehring)
> *Cc:* Toy, Mehmet; Brian E Carpenter; anima@ietf.org
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
>
>
>
> Many thanks for your kind reply,
>
> Recently i joined in IETF - ANIMA group, so i do not know about IETF -
> Yokohama; I will look into that.
>
>
>
> Since, the networks are fully distributed, asynchronous, heterogeneous an=
d
> dynamic, as i understood.
>
> Consensus relay convergence time, robustness, and fault-tolerance against
> failures (e.g. termination, validation, integrity and agreement).
>
> For instance, in ACP, the autonomic functions have to fulfill their
> individual goals and also must cooperate their behaviour towards global
> goal of the entire network. Meaning that autonomic functions such as,
> energy efficiency, load balancing, scalability, availability conflicts wi=
th
> each other based on users mobility. The energy efficiency function
> conflicts with availability and mobility; also with load balancing; since
> adaptively micro, macro, and pico cells have to adjust their
> functionalities in the mean time have to serve all its objects under thei=
r
> signals. So, there is a need of coordinated function (consensus state),
> that maximizes individual and global goals by reducing conflicts between
> them.
>
> We have Swarm and Artificial Intelligence techniques to reach consensus
> state in a dynamic situation, since they will learn the past and anticipa=
te
> the future by prediction.
>
>
>
> I hope it works better for bottom-up approach, as you mentioned this
> groups focus is also bottom-up.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:27 AM, Michael Behringer (mbehring) <
> mbehring@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Reddy,
>
>
>
> Thanks for chiming in!  Nice to get some fresh view on our work.
>
>
>
> I=E2=80=99m not sure consensus is =E2=80=9Cinstead=E2=80=9D of synchronis=
ation, I think those are
> two different things. Synchronisation just keeps the state on some device=
s
> in sync, consensus is to me a specific form of negotiation.
>
>
>
> In this working group we=E2=80=99re very focused on a bottom-up approach,=
 i.e.,
> first understand small building blocks and how we can use them, later plu=
g
> them together in a wider framework. The approach is use-case driven, in
> other words, for everything we do we=E2=80=99d like a clear example on ho=
w this
> would be used in a running network.
>
>
>
> Can you give us an example on how consensus could be used in today=E2=80=
=99s
> networks? The simpler the example, the better. We are looking to understa=
nd
> how a network function would use consensus in a concrete situation.
>
>
>
> Once we understand the use case, we can see how and where to bring it in.
>
>
>
> Will you be at the IETF in Yokohama? If so, we should meet and discuss.
>
>
>
> Michael
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Reddy Pallavali [mailto:f80077@ulusofona.pt]
> *Sent:* 15 October 2015 11:08
> *To:* Michael Behringer (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com>
> *Cc:* Toy, Mehmet <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>; Brian E Carpenter <
> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>; anima@ietf.org
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I am new to this mailing list, and junior researcher from COPELABS, Lisbo=
n.
>
> I have one suggestion when it comes to ACP toolkit - instead of using
> synchronization, can use consensus?
>
> Since, synchronization is more towards centralized "Coordinator initiate
> to agree on something (towards centralized), and others have to adjust
> their state".
>
> When it comes to consensus "individual neighbors come to global
> intelligence by simple communication rules (fully distributed), and
> majority opinion is valid".
>
> My PhD thesis area is on Consensus so, i can contribute this section.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 9:57 AM, Michael Behringer (mbehring) <
> mbehring@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> Toy, thanks for raising those questions. Obviously, we're not doing a goo=
d
> job yet in describing what the ACP is, and that needs to be fixed. And
> obviously, we all need the same view to progress further. So this is a ve=
ry
> important discussion, and I really welcome it.
>
> Before formalising better text, let me see whether we get agreement on th=
e
> fundamental idea.
>
> In my head, there are two layers: The ACP, and on top of that the
> Autonomic Functions:
>
> * The ACP is the "tool kit". It comprises various "mechanics", such as
> negotiation, synchronisation, discovery of various sorts, messaging, etc.
> Those are all based on a common addressing and naming concept.
>
> * Autonomic Functions use that tool kit to do something clever. In other
> words, the true autonomic "intelligence" sits on that level.
>
> There is *one* ACP, there are *many* autonomic functions on top.
>
> One way to decide to which layer something belongs is to ask: "is this (1=
)
> a generic functionality which many functions require, or is this (2) one
> specific function?". If the answer is (1), it belongs into the ACP, if (2=
)
> it belongs into an autonomic function.
>
> So, in this light, my understanding (!) of fault management is that this
> is an autonomic function, and would use common blocks of the underlying
> ACP. Conversely, it would not offer services to other autonomic functions
> on top. This is my way of thinking when I write "this is an autonomic
> function".  And I'm not 100% certain I understand what you're suggesting,
> so please chime in here! (And I haven't read your draft fully yet, sorry)
>
> Look at
> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-01.txt
> This draft describes "intelligence". In that case, a way to automatically
> manage address space. Sections 2.2 and 2.3 explain which parameters and
> information exchanges such a function would require. Sheng wrote this
> document to explain how an autonomic function would use a common ACP.
>
> Probably we should take some off-line time in Yokohama to discuss this in
> a small team?
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Toy, Mehmet
> > Sent: 15 October 2015 04:26
> > To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>; Michael Behringer
> > (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com>; anima@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
> >
> > Michael and Brian,
> > Per Toerless suggestion, I am including ANIMA group into the discussion=
.
> >
> > I re-read the "A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking" document and
> > I am not clear about the definitions.
> >
> > a)  In the "A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking", ACP is defined
> as
> > "The Autonomic Control Plane is the summary of all interactions of the
> > Autonomic Networking Infrastructure with other nodes and services.".
> >
> > b) Brian, you write as " The ACP is common infrastructure for all
> autonomic
> > functions.(The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of course.) The signalin=
g
> > protocol is also common infrastructure."
> >
> > Question: What is ACP? a or b or combination?
> >
> > c) Section 4 in the reference model document , "The Autonomic Networkin=
g
> > Infrastructure provides a layer of common  functionality across an
> Autonomic
> > Network.  It comprises "must implement" functions and services, as well
> as
> > extensions."
> > Question: What are the "must implement" functionalities?  How do you
> > define "must implement" functionalities?
> >
> > Thanks
> > Mehmet
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM
> > To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); Toy, Mehmet
> > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
> > chairs@tools.ietf.org'
> > Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks
> >
> > I agree with Michael. The ACP is common infrastructure for all autonomi=
c
> > functions.
> > (The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of course.) The signaling protocol
> is also
> > common infrastructure.
> >
> >    Brian
> > On 15/10/2015 05:43, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
> > > I would argue they are part of an autonomic function, which runs on
> top of
> > the ACP.
> > > There are really two different pieces here, and this is I think the
> confusion
> > here:
> > >
> > > -          The ACP is self-managing. It needs to do self-healing, and
> > automatically adapt to new situations. But to me, this isn=E2=80=99t fa=
ult
> management
> > or performance management as an operator understands it.
> > >
> > > -          The network has FM and PM function. Those could be (and
> should
> > be, imo) autonomic functions. Those run on top of the ACP.
> > > Bottom line: I=E2=80=99d like to keep the ACP itself as minimalistic =
and
> simple as we
> > possibly can. Functions like FM / PM belong into an autonomic function,
> IMO.
> > > What do you think?
> > > Michael
> > > From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
> > > Sent: 14 October 2015 18:30
> > > To: Michael Behringer (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com>
> > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com' <dromasca@avaya.com>;
> > 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'
> > > <jiangsheng@huawei.com>; 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org'
> > > <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
> > > <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
> > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Michael,
> > > Instead of answering the question as Yes or No, let me give examples =
to
> > see what makes sense.
> > > Let=E2=80=99s say in a data path, a router port is failed.  The route=
r
> generates an AIS
> > (Alarm Indication Signal) and the receiving  end generates RDI (remote
> > Defect Indicator).  Both messages are generated by the hardware, not by=
 a
> > software or ACP.   As a result of this failure,  there would be packet
> loss. The
> > hardware counts these losses, an ACP does not.
> > > For the FM and PM functions above, can we say they are part of an ACP=
?
> > > Thanks
> > > Mehmet
> > > From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:34 AM
> > > To: Toy, Mehmet
> > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
> > chairs@tools.ietf.org'; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
> > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Hi Toy,
> > > To understand better: To me, fault management *uses* the functions of
> > the AN infrastructure. It uses the ACP to communicate, maybe GRASP for
> > some signalling, might be influenced by Intent, etc. Right?  So to me,
> this is a
> > logical component of an autonomic network that sits on top of the AN
> > infrastructure.
> > > Do we agree?
> > > Michael
> > >
> > > From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
> > > Sent: 13 October 2015 23:46
> > > To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
> > > <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
> > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'
> > > <dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>;
> > > 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'
> > > <jiangsheng@huawei.com<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>>;
> > > 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org'
> > > <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>;
> > > 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
> > > <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>
> > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Michael,
> > > Appreciate the reply.
> > > FM is part of data plane and control plane (i.e. ANI in your diagram)=
.
> > > My plan is to add a short paragraph for now either to section 2 to
> expand
> > the description  of ANI or to section 4 to add a sub-section for Fault
> > Management.
> > >
> > > It is also possible too add a Performance Management section to
> describe
> > what types of measurements and where and how are used.  Although there
> > is a control feedback related measurement in the document, I don=E2=80=
=99t know
> if
> > it is adequate.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Mehmet
> > > From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 12:27 PM
> > > To: Toy, Mehmet
> > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
> > chairs@tools.ietf.org'; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
> > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Sorry for the delay, it=E2=80=99s very busy at the moment here.
> > > To me, fault management refers generally to faults on the data plane,
> ie for
> > user traffic. I see that happening at some point as an autonomic
> function (or
> > several, for different aspects). Would you agree? Or do you see that as=
 a
> > function inside the AN infrastructure?
> > > So my feeling is that function would reside on top of the
> infrastructure that
> > we=E2=80=99re currently defining. So, please have a look whether your t=
houghts
> can
> > be described as an autonomic function. I think they probably can.
> > > Then I suggest we do the same that we=E2=80=99re planning to do with =
the NMS
> > section, the model discussion, etc: Have a short paragraph describe the
> > overall topic briefly, and point to an external doc for now, i.e.,
> probably your
> > draft.
> > > If you agree, can you suggest where in the reference model you would
> add
> > a short paragraph about fault management, and I suppose we=E2=80=99d po=
int to
> your
> > draft, right?
> > > Michael
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
> > > Sent: 13 October 2015 03:53
> > > To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
> > > <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
> > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'
> > > <dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>;
> > > 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'
> > > <jiangsheng@huawei.com<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>>;
> > > 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org'
> > > <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>;
> > > 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
> > > <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>
> > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Mike,
> > > I am waiting for your response.
> > > Thanks
> > > Mehmet
> > >
> > > From: Toy, Mehmet
> > > Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 8:13 PM
> > > To: 'mbehring@cisco.com'
> > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
> > chairs@tools.ietf.org'; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
> > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Mike,
> > > I can send you some text to include in section 2 and 4 of  =E2=80=9CA=
 Reference
> > Model for Autonomic Networking,   draft-behringer-anima-reference-
> > model-03=E2=80=9D,  per Sheng=E2=80=99s suggestion.
> > > Should I just do that?
> > > Thanks
> > > Mehmet
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Toy, Mehmet
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 7:53 AM
> > > To: 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org';
> > 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'; 'mbehring@cisco.com'
> > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'
> > > Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Sheng,
> > > Appreciate a quick response.
> > > I will work on your suggestion.
> > > Mehmet
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 06:08 AM Eastern Standard Time
> > > To: Toy, Mehmet;
> > > anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>
> > > <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>;
> > > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
> > > <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>;
> > > mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>
> > > <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
> > > Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
> > > (dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>)
> > > <dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>
> > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Hi, Toy,
> > > First of all, for my understanding, your work is in the scope of the =
WG
> > charter. However, we do not have work item or milestone for it. It look=
s
> like
> > an upper-layer autonomic service agent for me. In our plan, autonomic
> > service agents are mainly for the next period, which is after re-charte=
r
> (this is
> > the same with your suggestion of modifying the charter, but it cannot
> > happen until we deliver the current milestones). For now, the best may =
be
> > try to add some description, maybe mainly abstracted functionality, int=
o
> the
> > reference model document.
> > > Best regards,
> > > Sheng
> > >
> > > From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 1:14 AM
> > > To: anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>;
> > > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>;
> > > mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>
> > > Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
> > > (dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>)
> > > Subject: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Dear All:
> > > I couldn=E2=80=99t attend the Prague meeting, but luckily Dan was abl=
e to
> present
> > my slides on =E2=80=9CSelf-Managed Networks with Fault Management Hiera=
rchy=E2=80=9D.
> > The feedback was to position the work in the ANIMA WG scope and
> > framework.
> > >
> > > ANIMA charter in =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et. al., A Reference Model fo=
r
> Autonomic
> > Networking
> > > draft-behringer-anima-reference-model-03=E2=80=9D refers to =E2=80=9C=
self-healing=E2=80=9D.
> > RFC7575,  =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et al.,   Autonomic Networking: Defini=
tions and
> > Design Goals=E2=80=9D,  refers to =E2=80=9Cself-management=E2=80=9D. Ho=
wever, both documents do
> > not  articulate fault management aspect of the self-management.  It is
> > possible to interpret the fault management aspect of autonomic networks
> as
> > part of =E2=80=9Cself-healing=E2=80=9D and therefore as part of the ANI=
MA charter.  In
> that
> > case, the =E2=80=9CArchitectural Framework for Self-Managed Networks wi=
th Fault
> > Management Hierarchy, draft-mtoy-anima-self-faultmang-framework-
> > 00.txt=E2=80=9D contribution can target to fill that gap.  The control =
plane
> aspect of
> > self-healing is addressed by =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et al., An Autonomi=
c Control
> > Plane, draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane-03=E2=80=9D.  I be=
lieve
> these
> > contributions are complementary to each other. I can try to address tha=
t
> in
> > the contribution.
> > >
> > > Please let me know if you agree with me. If not, I suggest to modify
> the
> > charter since without covering fault management aspect of the autonomic
> > networks, the concept of autonomic network will be incomplete.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Mehmet
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Anima mailing list
> > Anima@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Thank you very much for your time and consideration.
>
>
>
> Yours sincerely,
>
> P Radha Krishna Reddy, M.Sc, M.Tech,
>
> Junior Researcher/Ph.D Student,
>
> COPE LABS, Universidade Lusofona, Lisboa - Portugal.
>
> Author of: Security Issues of Cloud Computing over General & IT Sector
> Mobile: +351923095671
> www.prkreddy.webs.com
> http://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Thank you very much for your time and consideration.
>
>
>
> Yours sincerely,
>
> P Radha Krishna Reddy, M.Sc, M.Tech,
>
> Junior Researcher/Ph.D Student,
>
> COPE LABS, Universidade Lusofona, Lisboa - Portugal.
>
> Author of: Security Issues of Cloud Computing over General & IT Sector
> Mobile: +351923095671
> www.prkreddy.webs.com
> http://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/
>



--=20
Thank you very much for your time and consideration.


Yours sincerely,

P Radha Krishna Reddy, M.Sc, M.Tech,

Junior Researcher/Ph.D Student,

COPE LABS, Universidade Lusofona, Lisboa - Portugal.
Author of: Security Issues of Cloud Computing over General & IT Sector
Mobile: +351923095671
www.prkreddy.webs.com
http://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/

--f46d04428cce295abc0522376f31
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hello Toy,<br><br></div>As of my PhD thesis area is C=
onsensus problem, i went through synchronization as well. The time synchron=
ization is a centralized approach, that forces all objects to change their =
system timings to reach their goal; while consensus is a fully distributed =
approach, all objects have to agree on certain state: where the importance =
of convergence takes place. Here, we can use SI or AI approaches to improve=
 the convergence. <br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote">On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 5:04 AM, Toy, Mehmet <span dir=3D"ltr">&=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com" target=3D"_blank">Mehmet=
_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1=
ex">





<div link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"EN-US">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Reddy,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I believe =E2=80=9Csynchronization=E2=
=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cconsensus=E2=80=9D words are applicable to different si=
tuations. You gave a good AI example for consensus. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">On the other hand=C2=A0 if we are tal=
king timing relationship between two ends of =C2=A0a=C2=A0 circuit emulatio=
n, we have to use =E2=80=9Csynchronization=E2=80=9D.<u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">In autonomous networks, we might be a=
ble to use both words depending on the situation.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Thanks<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Mehmet<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Reddy Pallavali [mailto:<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:f80077@ulusofona.pt" target=3D"_blank">f80077@ulusofona.pt</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 15, 2015 6:03 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Michael Behringer (mbehring)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Toy, Mehmet; Brian E Carpenter; <a href=3D"mailto:anima@ietf.org=
" target=3D"_blank">anima@ietf.org</a></span></p><div><div class=3D"h5"><br=
>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks<u></u><u></u></div></div>=
<p></p><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Many thanks for your =
kind reply,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Recently i joined in IETF - ANIMA group, so i do not=
 know about IETF - Yokohama; I will look into that.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Since, the networks a=
re fully distributed, asynchronous, heterogeneous and dynamic, as i underst=
ood.<br>
<br>
Consensus relay convergence time,=C2=A0robustness, and fault-tolerance agai=
nst failures (e.g. termination, validation, integrity and agreement).<u></u=
><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">For instance, in ACP,=
 the autonomic functions have to fulfill their individual goals and also mu=
st cooperate their behaviour towards global goal of the entire network. Mea=
ning that autonomic functions such as,
 energy efficiency, load balancing, scalability, availability conflicts wit=
h each other based on users mobility. The energy efficiency function confli=
cts with availability and mobility; also with load balancing; since adaptiv=
ely micro, macro, and pico cells
 have to adjust their functionalities in the mean time have to serve all it=
s objects under their signals. So, there is a need of coordinated function =
(consensus state), that maximizes individual and global goals by reducing c=
onflicts between them.
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We have Swarm and Artificial Intelligence techniques=
 to reach consensus state in a dynamic situation, since they will learn the=
 past and anticipate the future by prediction.
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I hope it works better for bottom-up approach, as yo=
u mentioned this groups focus is also bottom-up.
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:27 AM, Michael Behringer =
(mbehring) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">mbeh=
ring@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-GB">Hi Reddy,
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-GB">=C2=A0</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-GB">Thanks for chiming in!=
=C2=A0 Nice to get some fresh view on our work.
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-GB">=C2=A0</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-GB">I=E2=80=99m not sure c=
onsensus is =E2=80=9Cinstead=E2=80=9D of synchronisation, I think those are=
 two different
 things. Synchronisation just keeps the state on some devices in sync, cons=
ensus is to me a specific form of negotiation.
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-GB">=C2=A0</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-GB">In this working group =
we=E2=80=99re very focused on a bottom-up approach, i.e., first understand
 small building blocks and how we can use them, later plug them together in=
 a wider framework. The approach is use-case driven, in other words, for ev=
erything we do we=E2=80=99d like a clear example on how this would be used =
in a running network.
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-GB">=C2=A0</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-GB">Can you give us an exa=
mple on how consensus could be used in today=E2=80=99s networks? The simple=
r
 the example, the better. We are looking to understand how a network functi=
on would use consensus in a concrete situation.
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-GB">=C2=A0</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-GB">Once we understand the=
 use case, we can see how and where to bring it in.
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-GB">=C2=A0</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-GB">Will you be at the IET=
F in Yokohama? If so, we should meet and discuss.
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-GB">=C2=A0</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-GB">Michael</span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-GB">=C2=A0</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-GB">=C2=A0</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Reddy Pallavali [mailto:<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:f80077@ulusofona.pt" target=3D"_blank">f80077@ulusofona.pt</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 15 October 2015 11:08<br>
<b>To:</b> Michael Behringer (mbehring) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisc=
o.com" target=3D"_blank">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Toy, Mehmet &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com" =
target=3D"_blank">Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>&gt;; Brian E Carpenter &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">brian.e=
.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:anima@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">anima@ietf.org</a></spa=
n><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif" lang=3D"EN-GB"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB=
"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">=
Hi,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">=
I am new to this mailing list, and junior researcher from COPELABS, Lisbon.=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">=
I have one suggestion when it comes to ACP toolkit - instead of using synch=
ronization, can use consensus?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Since, synchronization is more =
towards centralized &quot;Coordinator initiate to agree on something (towar=
ds centralized), and others have to adjust their state&quot;.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">=
When it comes to consensus &quot;individual neighbors come to global intell=
igence by simple communication rules (fully distributed), and majority opin=
ion is valid&quot;.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">=
My PhD thesis area is on Consensus so, i can contribute this section.<u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 9:57 AM=
, Michael Behringer (mbehring) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Toy, thanks for raising those q=
uestions. Obviously, we&#39;re not doing a good job yet in describing what =
the ACP is, and that needs to be fixed. And obviously, we
 all need the same view to progress further. So this is a very important di=
scussion, and I really welcome it.<br>
<br>
Before formalising better text, let me see whether we get agreement on the =
fundamental idea.<br>
<br>
In my head, there are two layers: The ACP, and on top of that the Autonomic=
 Functions:<br>
<br>
* The ACP is the &quot;tool kit&quot;. It comprises various &quot;mechanics=
&quot;, such as negotiation, synchronisation, discovery of various sorts, m=
essaging, etc. Those are all based on a common addressing and naming concep=
t.<br>
<br>
* Autonomic Functions use that tool kit to do something clever. In other wo=
rds, the true autonomic &quot;intelligence&quot; sits on that level.<br>
<br>
There is *one* ACP, there are *many* autonomic functions on top.<br>
<br>
One way to decide to which layer something belongs is to ask: &quot;is this=
 (1) a generic functionality which many functions require, or is this (2) o=
ne specific function?&quot;. If the answer is (1), it belongs into the ACP,=
 if (2) it belongs into an autonomic function.<br>
<br>
So, in this light, my understanding (!) of fault management is that this is=
 an autonomic function, and would use common blocks of the underlying ACP. =
Conversely, it would not offer services to other autonomic functions on top=
. This is my way of thinking when
 I write &quot;this is an autonomic function&quot;.=C2=A0 And I&#39;m not 1=
00% certain I understand what you&#39;re suggesting, so please chime in her=
e! (And I haven&#39;t read your draft fully yet, sorry)<br>
<br>
Look at <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-manage=
ment-01.txt" target=3D"_blank">
http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-01.txt</a><br>
This draft describes &quot;intelligence&quot;. In that case, a way to autom=
atically manage address space. Sections 2.2 and 2.3 explain which parameter=
s and information exchanges such a function would require. Sheng wrote this=
 document to explain how an autonomic function
 would use a common ACP.<br>
<br>
Probably we should take some off-line time in Yokohama to discuss this in a=
 small team?<br>
<span style=3D"color:#888888"><br>
Michael</span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><br>
<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Anima [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">anima-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Toy, Mehmet<br>
&gt; Sent: 15 October 2015 04:26<br>
&gt; To: Brian E Carpenter &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Michael Behringer=
<br>
&gt; (mbehring) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:anima@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">anima@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Michael and Brian,<br>
&gt; Per Toerless suggestion, I am including ANIMA group into the discussio=
n.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I re-read the &quot;A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking&quot; d=
ocument and<br>
&gt; I am not clear about the definitions.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; a)=C2=A0 In the &quot;A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking&quot;=
, ACP is defined as<br>
&gt; &quot;The Autonomic Control Plane is the summary of all interactions o=
f the<br>
&gt; Autonomic Networking Infrastructure with other nodes and services.&quo=
t;.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; b) Brian, you write as &quot; The ACP is common infrastructure for all=
 autonomic<br>
&gt; functions.(The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of course.) The signali=
ng<br>
&gt; protocol is also common infrastructure.&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Question: What is ACP? a or b or combination?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; c) Section 4 in the reference model document , &quot;The Autonomic Net=
working<br>
&gt; Infrastructure provides a layer of common=C2=A0 functionality across a=
n Autonomic<br>
&gt; Network.=C2=A0 It comprises &quot;must implement&quot; functions and s=
ervices, as well as<br>
&gt; extensions.&quot;<br>
&gt; Question: What are the &quot;must implement&quot; functionalities?=C2=
=A0 How do you<br>
&gt; define &quot;must implement&quot; functionalities?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thanks<br>
&gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gm=
ail.com" target=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>]<br>
&gt; Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM<br>
&gt; To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); Toy, Mehmet<br>
&gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_blank">droma=
sca@avaya.com</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>&#39;; &#39;anima-<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">chairs@tool=
s.ietf.org</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I agree with Michael. The ACP is common infrastructure for all autonom=
ic<br>
&gt; functions.<br>
&gt; (The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of course.) The signaling protoco=
l is also<br>
&gt; common infrastructure.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian<br>
&gt; On 15/10/2015 05:43, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; I would argue they are part of an autonomic function, which runs =
on top of<br>
&gt; the ACP.<br>
&gt; &gt; There are really two different pieces here, and this is I think t=
he confusion<br>
&gt; here:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; -=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The ACP is self-managing. It =
needs to do self-healing, and<br>
&gt; automatically adapt to new situations. But to me, this isn=E2=80=99t f=
ault management<br>
&gt; or performance management as an operator understands it.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; -=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The network has FM and PM fun=
ction. Those could be (and should<br>
&gt; be, imo) autonomic functions. Those run on top of the ACP.<br>
&gt; &gt; Bottom line: I=E2=80=99d like to keep the ACP itself as minimalis=
tic and simple as we<br>
&gt; possibly can. Functions like FM / PM belong into an autonomic function=
, IMO.<br>
&gt; &gt; What do you think?<br>
&gt; &gt; Michael<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comc=
ast.com" target=3D"_blank">Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: 14 October 2015 18:30<br>
&gt; &gt; To: Michael Behringer (mbehring) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@c=
isco.com" target=3D"_blank">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_blank">=
dromasca@avaya.com</a>&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&gt;;<br>
&gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">jiangs=
heng@huawei.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">ji=
angsheng@huawei.com</a>&gt;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf=
.org" target=3D"_blank">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&gt;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.car=
penter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&#39;<br=
>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Michael,<br>
&gt; &gt; Instead of answering the question as Yes or No, let me give examp=
les to<br>
&gt; see what makes sense.<br>
&gt; &gt; Let=E2=80=99s say in a data path, a router port is failed.=C2=A0 =
The router generates an AIS<br>
&gt; (Alarm Indication Signal) and the receiving=C2=A0 end generates RDI (r=
emote<br>
&gt; Defect Indicator).=C2=A0 Both messages are generated by the hardware, =
not by a<br>
&gt; software or ACP.=C2=A0 =C2=A0As a result of this failure,=C2=A0 there =
would be packet loss. The<br>
&gt; hardware counts these losses, an ACP does not.<br>
&gt; &gt; For the FM and PM functions above, can we say they are part of an=
 ACP?<br>
&gt; &gt; Thanks<br>
&gt; &gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbeh=
ring@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">mbehring@cisco.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:34 AM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: Toy, Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_blank">=
dromasca@avaya.com</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" =
target=3D"_blank">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>&#39;; &#39;anima-<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">chairs@tool=
s.ietf.org</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Hi Toy,<br>
&gt; &gt; To understand better: To me, fault management *uses* the function=
s of<br>
&gt; the AN infrastructure. It uses the ACP to communicate, maybe GRASP for=
<br>
&gt; some signalling, might be influenced by Intent, etc. Right?=C2=A0 So t=
o me, this is a<br>
&gt; logical component of an autonomic network that sits on top of the AN<b=
r>
&gt; infrastructure.<br>
&gt; &gt; Do we agree?<br>
&gt; &gt; Michael<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comc=
ast.com" target=3D"_blank">Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: 13 October 2015 23:46<br>
&gt; &gt; To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">mbehr=
ing@cisco.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D=
"_blank">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_blank">=
dromasca@avaya.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_blank">droma=
sca@avaya.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D=
"_blank">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">j=
iangsheng@huawei.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">ji=
angsheng@huawei.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" =
target=3D"_blank">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chair=
s@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;=
;<br>
&gt; &gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.car=
penter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;=
<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Michael,<br>
&gt; &gt; Appreciate the reply.<br>
&gt; &gt; FM is part of data plane and control plane (i.e. ANI in your diag=
ram).<br>
&gt; &gt; My plan is to add a short paragraph for now either to section 2 t=
o expand<br>
&gt; the description=C2=A0 of ANI or to section 4 to add a sub-section for =
Fault<br>
&gt; Management.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; It is also possible too add a Performance Management section to d=
escribe<br>
&gt; what types of measurements and where and how are used.=C2=A0 Although =
there<br>
&gt; is a control feedback related measurement in the document, I don=E2=80=
=99t know if<br>
&gt; it is adequate.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; &gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbeh=
ring@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">mbehring@cisco.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 12:27 PM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: Toy, Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_blank">=
dromasca@avaya.com</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" =
target=3D"_blank">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>&#39;; &#39;anima-<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">chairs@tool=
s.ietf.org</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Sorry for the delay, it=E2=80=99s very busy at the moment here.<b=
r>
&gt; &gt; To me, fault management refers generally to faults on the data pl=
ane, ie for<br>
&gt; user traffic. I see that happening at some point as an autonomic funct=
ion (or<br>
&gt; several, for different aspects). Would you agree? Or do you see that a=
s a<br>
&gt; function inside the AN infrastructure?<br>
&gt; &gt; So my feeling is that function would reside on top of the infrast=
ructure that<br>
&gt; we=E2=80=99re currently defining. So, please have a look whether your =
thoughts can<br>
&gt; be described as an autonomic function. I think they probably can.<br>
&gt; &gt; Then I suggest we do the same that we=E2=80=99re planning to do w=
ith the NMS<br>
&gt; section, the model discussion, etc: Have a short paragraph describe th=
e<br>
&gt; overall topic briefly, and point to an external doc for now, i.e., pro=
bably your<br>
&gt; draft.<br>
&gt; &gt; If you agree, can you suggest where in the reference model you wo=
uld add<br>
&gt; a short paragraph about fault management, and I suppose we=E2=80=99d p=
oint to your<br>
&gt; draft, right?<br>
&gt; &gt; Michael<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comc=
ast.com" target=3D"_blank">Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: 13 October 2015 03:53<br>
&gt; &gt; To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">mbehr=
ing@cisco.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D=
"_blank">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_blank">=
dromasca@avaya.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_blank">droma=
sca@avaya.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D=
"_blank">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">j=
iangsheng@huawei.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">ji=
angsheng@huawei.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" =
target=3D"_blank">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chair=
s@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;=
;<br>
&gt; &gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.car=
penter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;=
<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Mike,<br>
&gt; &gt; I am waiting for your response.<br>
&gt; &gt; Thanks<br>
&gt; &gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Toy, Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 8:13 PM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">=
mbehring@cisco.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_blank">=
dromasca@avaya.com</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" =
target=3D"_blank">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>&#39;; &#39;anima-<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">chairs@tool=
s.ietf.org</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Mike,<br>
&gt; &gt; I can send you some text to include in section 2 and 4 of=C2=A0 =
=E2=80=9CA Reference<br>
&gt; Model for Autonomic Networking,=C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-behringer-anima-refe=
rence-<br>
&gt; model-03=E2=80=9D,=C2=A0 per Sheng=E2=80=99s suggestion.<br>
&gt; &gt; Should I just do that?<br>
&gt; &gt; Thanks<br>
&gt; &gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Toy, Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 7:53 AM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tool=
s.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&#39;;<br>
&gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">=
brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco=
.com" target=3D"_blank">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_blank">=
dromasca@avaya.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Sheng,<br>
&gt; &gt; Appreciate a quick response.<br>
&gt; &gt; I will work on your suggestion.<br>
&gt; &gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com=
" target=3D"_blank">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 06:08 AM Eastern Standard Time<b=
r>
&gt; &gt; To: Toy, Mehmet;<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@to=
ols.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chair=
s@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;=
;<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">=
brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpent=
er@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.car=
penter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;=
;<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">mbehring@=
cisco.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">mbehr=
ing@cisco.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D=
"_blank">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)<br>
&gt; &gt; (<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_blank">dromasca=
@avaya.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&gt;)<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_blank">droma=
sca@avaya.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D=
"_blank">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Hi, Toy,<br>
&gt; &gt; First of all, for my understanding, your work is in the scope of =
the WG<br>
&gt; charter. However, we do not have work item or milestone for it. It loo=
ks like<br>
&gt; an upper-layer autonomic service agent for me. In our plan, autonomic<=
br>
&gt; service agents are mainly for the next period, which is after re-chart=
er (this is<br>
&gt; the same with your suggestion of modifying the charter, but it cannot<=
br>
&gt; happen until we deliver the current milestones). For now, the best may=
 be<br>
&gt; try to add some description, maybe mainly abstracted functionality, in=
to the<br>
&gt; reference model document.<br>
&gt; &gt; Best regards,<br>
&gt; &gt; Sheng<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comc=
ast.com" target=3D"_blank">Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 1:14 AM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chair=
s@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&gt;;<br=
>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">=
brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpent=
er@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">mbehring@=
cisco.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)<br>
&gt; &gt; (<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_blank">dromasca=
@avaya.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&gt;)<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Dear All:<br>
&gt; &gt; I couldn=E2=80=99t attend the Prague meeting, but luckily Dan was=
 able to present<br>
&gt; my slides on =E2=80=9CSelf-Managed Networks with Fault Management Hier=
archy=E2=80=9D.<br>
&gt; The feedback was to position the work in the ANIMA WG scope and<br>
&gt; framework.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; ANIMA charter in =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et. al., A Reference Mode=
l for Autonomic<br>
&gt; Networking<br>
&gt; &gt; draft-behringer-anima-reference-model-03=E2=80=9D refers to =E2=
=80=9Cself-healing=E2=80=9D.<br>
&gt; RFC7575,=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et al.,=C2=A0 =C2=A0Autonomic Ne=
tworking: Definitions and<br>
&gt; Design Goals=E2=80=9D,=C2=A0 refers to =E2=80=9Cself-management=E2=80=
=9D. However, both documents do<br>
&gt; not=C2=A0 articulate fault management aspect of the self-management.=
=C2=A0 It is<br>
&gt; possible to interpret the fault management aspect of autonomic network=
s as<br>
&gt; part of =E2=80=9Cself-healing=E2=80=9D and therefore as part of the AN=
IMA charter.=C2=A0 In that<br>
&gt; case, the =E2=80=9CArchitectural Framework for Self-Managed Networks w=
ith Fault<br>
&gt; Management Hierarchy, draft-mtoy-anima-self-faultmang-framework-<br>
&gt; 00.txt=E2=80=9D contribution can target to fill that gap.=C2=A0 The co=
ntrol plane aspect of<br>
&gt; self-healing is addressed by =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et al., An Autonom=
ic Control<br>
&gt; Plane, draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane-03=E2=80=9D.=C2=
=A0 I believe these<br>
&gt; contributions are complementary to each other. I can try to address th=
at in<br>
&gt; the contribution.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Please let me know if you agree with me. If not, I suggest to mod=
ify the<br>
&gt; charter since without covering fault management aspect of the autonomi=
c<br>
&gt; networks, the concept of autonomic network will be incomplete.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; &gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; Anima mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Anima@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Anima@ietf.org</a>=
<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Anima mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Anima@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Anima@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><br>
<br clear=3D"all">
<br>
-- <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,serif=
" lang=3D"EN-GB">Thank you very much for your time and consideration.</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style=3D"text-align:justify"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p style=3D"text-align:justify"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cambria&qu=
ot;,serif" lang=3D"EN-GB">Yours sincerely,</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,serif" lang=3D"EN-GB">P R=
adha Krishna Reddy, M.Sc, M.Tech,</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,serif" lang=3D"EN-GB">Jun=
ior Researcher/Ph.D Student,</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,serif" lang=3D"EN-GB">COP=
E LABS, Universidade Lusofona, Lisboa - Portugal.</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB=
"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Author of: Security Issues of C=
loud Computing over General &amp; IT Sector<br>
Mobile: <a href=3D"tel:%2B351923095671" target=3D"_blank">+351923095671</a>=
<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.prkreddy.webs.com" target=3D"_blank">www.prkreddy.web=
s.com</a> <br>
<a href=3D"http://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/" target=3D"_blank">htt=
p://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br clear=3D"all">
<br>
-- <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,serif=
">Thank you very much for your time and consideration.</span><u></u><u></u>=
</p>
<p style=3D"text-align:justify"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p style=3D"text-align:justify"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cambria&qu=
ot;,serif">Yours sincerely,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,serif">P Radha Krishna Re=
ddy, M.Sc, M.Tech,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,serif">Junior Researcher/=
Ph.D Student,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,serif">COPE LABS, Univers=
idade Lusofona, Lisboa - Portugal.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Author of: Security Issues of Cloud Computing over G=
eneral &amp; IT Sector<br>
Mobile: <a href=3D"tel:%2B351923095671" value=3D"+351923095671" target=3D"_=
blank">+351923095671</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://www.prkreddy.webs.com" target=3D"_blank">www.prkreddy.web=
s.com</a> <br>
<a href=3D"http://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/" target=3D"_blank">htt=
p://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail_sig=
nature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><span =
style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,=
&quot;serif&quot;">Thank you very much for your time and
consideration.</span><p style=3D"text-align:justify"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,&quot;serif&quot=
;"><br></span></p>

<p style=3D"text-align:justify;line-height:normal"><span style=3D"font-size=
:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Yours sincerely,=
</span></p>

<p style=3D"line-height:normal;text-align:left"><span style=3D"font-size:12=
.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">P Radha Krishna Red=
dy, M.Sc, M.Tech,<br></span></p><p style=3D"line-height:normal;text-align:l=
eft"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,&quot;=
serif&quot;">Junior Researcher/Ph.D Student,</span></p><p style=3D"line-hei=
ght:normal;text-align:left"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Cambria&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">COPE LABS, Universidade Lusofona, Lisbo=
a - Portugal.<br></span></p>

Author of: Security Issues of Cloud Computing over General &amp; IT Sector<=
br>Mobile: +351923095671<br><a>www.prkreddy.webs.com</a> <br><a href=3D"htt=
p://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/" target=3D"_blank">http://pt.linkedi=
n.com/in/reddypallavali/</a><br></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>

--f46d04428cce295abc0522376f31--


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From: "Toy, Mehmet" <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Self-Managed Networks
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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: Laurent Ciavaglia <Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>, "Brian E Carpenter" <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, "Toy, Mehmet" <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
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Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 17:10:37 +0000
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References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BBB558B@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <7145ab65268b4fb3b279e2ce9da1fdaa@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <cbc6f29eda114b848f3dac35609b2da8@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <9c8b64c962c443f19f6fd784cb9927a7@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <7512f6b600904c49838fcf729e3000a5@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <334e22acb30e487eb7f5a2d41fb54499@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <ff7789800a574fcb901e096a0a11f5bb@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <dd5a46abd24c49d2a9acd31a608ef7e8@VAADCEX37.cable.comcast.com> <14fdc79570b54d0e9562382c5d53a3ef@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <561EC845.9020505@gmail.com> <c1e45907707f42d3ae1e9beb0647a760@VAADCEX37.cable.comcast.com> <03347fe65bce48e9ba28827f5c4c0624@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <c44ededa670e43588987bd30b2f68e88@VAADCEX37.cable.comcast.com> <562092DA.3070800@gmail.com> <fcc70f9268c746c786f49a7dd547cb7a@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <5620D70A.4010903@alcatel-lucent.com>
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--_000_1ecc10fb3edc4ca996f15fc071880cb3XCHRCD006ciscocom_--


From nobody Fri Oct 16 14:28:44 2015
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To: Duzongpeng <duzongpeng@huawei.com>, Laurent Ciavaglia <Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>, "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>, "Toy, Mehmet" <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BBB558B@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <7145ab65268b4fb3b279e2ce9da1fdaa@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <cbc6f29eda114b848f3dac35609b2da8@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <9c8b64c962c443f19f6fd784cb9927a7@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <7512f6b600904c49838fcf729e3000a5@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <334e22acb30e487eb7f5a2d41fb54499@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <ff7789800a574fcb901e096a0a11f5bb@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <dd5a46abd24c49d2a9acd31a608ef7e8@VAADCEX37.cable.comcast.com> <14fdc79570b54d0e9562382c5d53a3ef@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <561EC845.9020505@gmail.com> <c1e45907707f42d3ae1e9beb0647a760@VAADCEX37.cable.comcast.com> <03347fe65bce48e9ba28827f5c4c0624@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <c44ededa670e43588987bd30b2f68e88@VAADCEX37.cable.comcast.com> <562092DA.3070800@gmail.com> <fcc70f9268c746c786f49a7dd547cb7a@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <5620D70A.4010903@alcatel-lucent.com> <BAFEC9523F57BC48A51C20226A5589575F415EBA@nkgeml505-mbx.china.huawei.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
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Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 10:28:36 +1300
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Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/RSgXLnU-wNSxupCH1zBvvjUgUVc>
Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
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Hello all,
On 17/10/2015 00:47, Duzongpeng wrote:
> Hi Laurent,
>          I agree that a downloadable agent infra is attractive, but I a=
m a little confused with your statement.
> =E2=80=9C-to allow ASAs to be deployed (and execute) on hosts different=
 from the hosts/resources they are supposed to manage.=E2=80=9D
>          Can you give an example for this situation? Or explain under w=
hat situation, a different host is involved, and what is the benefit? Tha=
nks.

Well, if you consider the prefix management use case, the various ASAs th=
at negotiate
allocations of prefixes with each other might also be running standard pr=
efix
delegation to a group of traditional routers which are not autonomic node=
s.

    Brian

>=20
> Best Regards
> Zongpeng Du
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Laurent Ciavag=
lia
> Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 6:53 PM
> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); Brian E Carpenter; Toy, Mehmet; anima=
@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
>=20
> Dear Michael, all,
>=20
> I am not sure to fully understand what you mean by "The ACP is a contro=
l plane for *device* management."
> In the abstract of the ACP draft, it is written that the ACP is the con=
trol plane for autonomic functions. Statement which I agree with.
> If I try to interpret (please correct if I am wrong) "ACP for device" a=
s stated above, it means that the ACP runs between devices (dubbed autono=
mic nodes) hosting autonomic functions (e.g. one or more ASAs).
>=20
> To stress what Toerless mentioned in a previous message:
> "1) easily, ideally autonomous downloadable agent/application infra.
>=20
> Eg: I don't see any way that either vendors or operators could realisti=
cally build this framework if these components are tied into the classica=
l router OS software delivery model where it takes months to validate a s=
oftware update and more months to deploy it. If this can be downloaded, a=
s separate apps then its so much easier to incrementally build/deploy it =
on a totally different deployment process."
>=20
> I think it is important to support such flexibility for the deployment,=
 and therefore:
>     -to stress that the ACP runs between devices (dubbed autonomic node=
s) hosting autonomic functions (e.g. one or more ASAs).
>     -to allow ASAs to be deployed (and execute) on hosts different from=
 the hosts/resources they are supposed to manage. of course, this model d=
oes not preclude ASAs to be directly hosted/integrated with the device.
>=20
> HTH, best regards, Laurent.
>=20
> On 16/10/2015 10:44, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>=20
> Adding to Brian's response (which I agree with), and up-levelling the d=
iscussion a bit:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Mehmet, I think there is a simple misunderstanding here. The ACP is a c=
ontrol plane for *device* management. A device can hold many contexts, as=
 in NFV, but they are all managed in a single way. My feeling is we have =
a disconnect somewhere on this level, right?
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Michael
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
>=20
> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]
>=20
> Sent: 16 October 2015 08:02
>=20
> To: Toy, Mehmet <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com><mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.=
comcast.com>; Michael Behringer
>=20
> (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com><mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>; anima@ietf.=
org<mailto:anima@ietf.org>
>=20
> Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On 16/10/2015 16:36, Toy, Mehmet wrote:
>=20
> Michael,
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Before I pick each of your statement and express my thoughts, I would l=
ike
>=20
> to ask more questions by picking your  statement " There is *one* ACP,
>=20
> there are *many* autonomic functions on top.".   Assume we  start build=
ing
>=20
> on this to see how far we can go, whether this holds for all cases or n=
ot, I
>=20
> don't know.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> If we have two or more ACPs, what could go wrong?
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Why would a domain need more than one ACP? (Certainly there might be a
>=20
> transient situation after a temporary network partition where two ACPs
>=20
> would "meet" and then need to merge; indeed the ACP needs to be self-
>=20
> repairing in such cases.)
>=20
>=20
>=20
> What is it that you are trying to do here? What is the purpose behind t=
his
>=20
> model?
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Provide a secure L3 between all autonomic nodes that is strictly indepe=
ndent
>=20
> of the operational data plane. The purpose is to allow autonomic operat=
ions
>=20
> to work regardless of anything else.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Furthermore, I suggest you to think about ETSI NFV model,
>=20
> "infrastructure" and "VNF" division of networks.  What is wrong in
>=20
> using that kind of model here which is a reasonable breakdown,
>=20
>=20
>=20
> We aren't reinventing NFV, as far as I can tell. If there is a recent t=
echnical
>=20
> overview of NFV, that would be interesting to see. But I don't believe =
that
>=20
> Autonomic Service Agents are at all the same thing as VNFs.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> instead of sticking with ACP  that is becoming very difficult to define=
?
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Huh? draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane is still work in progress=
 but it
>=20
> seems very clearly defined to me. In sketching out how GRASP will be
>=20
> implemented, I haven't hit any conceptual problems with the ACP, and it=
s
>=20
> main API will just be socket calls. The only complication I found is th=
at it will
>=20
> need to support the Advanced Socket API because of some special
>=20
> requirements for link-local multicasts. Otherwise, it's just another vi=
rtual
>=20
> (loopback) network interface.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Regards
>=20
>    Brian
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Thanks
>=20
> Mehmet
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
>=20
> From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com]
>=20
> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 4:57 AM
>=20
> To: Toy, Mehmet; Brian E Carpenter; anima@ietf.org<mailto:anima@ietf.or=
g>
>=20
> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Toy, thanks for raising those questions. Obviously, we're not doing a g=
ood
>=20
> job yet in describing what the ACP is, and that needs to be fixed. And
>=20
> obviously, we all need the same view to progress further. So this is a =
very
>=20
> important discussion, and I really welcome it.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Before formalising better text, let me see whether we get agreement on
>=20
> the fundamental idea.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> In my head, there are two layers: The ACP, and on top of that the
>=20
> Autonomic Functions:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> * The ACP is the "tool kit". It comprises various "mechanics", such as
>=20
> negotiation, synchronisation, discovery of various sorts, messaging, et=
c.
>=20
> Those are all based on a common addressing and naming concept.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> * Autonomic Functions use that tool kit to do something clever. In othe=
r
>=20
> words, the true autonomic "intelligence" sits on that level.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> There is *one* ACP, there are *many* autonomic functions on top.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> One way to decide to which layer something belongs is to ask: "is this =
(1) a
>=20
> generic functionality which many functions require, or is this (2) one =
specific
>=20
> function?". If the answer is (1), it belongs into the ACP, if (2) it be=
longs into
>=20
> an autonomic function.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> So, in this light, my understanding (!) of fault management is that
>=20
> this is an autonomic function, and would use common blocks of the
>=20
> underlying ACP. Conversely, it would not offer services to other
>=20
> autonomic functions on top. This is my way of thinking when I write
>=20
> "this is an autonomic function".  And I'm not 100% certain I
>=20
> understand what you're suggesting, so please chime in here! (And I
>=20
> haven't read your draft fully yet, sorry)
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Look at
>=20
> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-01.txt
>=20
> This draft describes "intelligence". In that case, a way to automatical=
ly
>=20
> manage address space. Sections 2.2 and 2.3 explain which parameters and=

>=20
> information exchanges such a function would require. Sheng wrote this
>=20
> document to explain how an autonomic function would use a common ACP.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Probably we should take some off-line time in Yokohama to discuss this =
in a
>=20
> small team?
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Michael
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
>=20
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Toy,
>=20
> Mehmet
>=20
> Sent: 15 October 2015 04:26
>=20
> To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com><mailto:brian.e.carp=
enter@gmail.com>; Michael
>=20
> Behringer
>=20
> (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com><mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>; anima@ietf.=
org<mailto:anima@ietf.org>
>=20
> Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Michael and Brian,
>=20
> Per Toerless suggestion, I am including ANIMA group into the discussion=
=2E
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I re-read the "A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking" document
>=20
> and I am not clear about the definitions.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> a)  In the "A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking", ACP is
>=20
> defined as "The Autonomic Control Plane is the summary of all
>=20
> interactions of the Autonomic Networking Infrastructure with other
>=20
> nodes and services.".
>=20
>=20
>=20
> b) Brian, you write as " The ACP is common infrastructure for all
>=20
> autonomic functions.(The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of course.)
>=20
> The signaling protocol is also common infrastructure."
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Question: What is ACP? a or b or combination?
>=20
>=20
>=20
> c) Section 4 in the reference model document , "The Autonomic
>=20
> Networking Infrastructure provides a layer of common  functionality
>=20
> across an Autonomic Network.  It comprises "must implement" functions
>=20
> and services, as well as extensions."
>=20
> Question: What are the "must implement" functionalities?  How do you
>=20
> define "must implement" functionalities?
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Thanks
>=20
> Mehmet
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
>=20
> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]
>=20
> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM
>=20
> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); Toy, Mehmet
>=20
> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>'; 'jiangsheng@huawei=
=2Ecom<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>'; 'anima-
>=20
> chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org>'
>=20
> Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I agree with Michael. The ACP is common infrastructure for all
>=20
> autonomic functions.
>=20
> (The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of course.) The signaling
>=20
> protocol is also common infrastructure.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>    Brian
>=20
> On 15/10/2015 05:43, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>=20
> I would argue they are part of an autonomic function, which runs on
>=20
> top of
>=20
> the ACP.
>=20
> There are really two different pieces here, and this is I think the
>=20
> confusion
>=20
> here:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -          The ACP is self-managing. It needs to do self-healing, and
>=20
> automatically adapt to new situations. But to me, this isn=E2=80=99t fa=
ult
>=20
> management or performance management as an operator understands
>=20
> it.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -          The network has FM and PM function. Those could be (and shou=
ld
>=20
> be, imo) autonomic functions. Those run on top of the ACP.
>=20
> Bottom line: I=E2=80=99d like to keep the ACP itself as minimalistic an=
d
>=20
> simple as we
>=20
> possibly can. Functions like FM / PM belong into an autonomic function,=

>=20
> IMO.
>=20
> What do you think?
>=20
> Michael
>=20
> From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
>=20
> Sent: 14 October 2015 18:30
>=20
> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com><mailto:mbehring@c=
isco.com>
>=20
> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>' <dromasca@avaya.com=
><mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>;
>=20
> 'jiangsheng@huawei.com<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>'
>=20
> <jiangsheng@huawei.com><mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>; 'anima-chairs@to=
ols.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>'
>=20
> <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org><mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>; 'bri=
an.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>'
>=20
> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com><mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
>=20
> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Michael,
>=20
> Instead of answering the question as Yes or No, let me give examples
>=20
> to
>=20
> see what makes sense.
>=20
> Let=E2=80=99s say in a data path, a router port is failed.  The router
>=20
> generates an AIS
>=20
> (Alarm Indication Signal) and the receiving  end generates RDI
>=20
> (remote Defect Indicator).  Both messages are generated by the
>=20
> hardware, not by a
>=20
> software or ACP.   As a result of this failure,  there would be packet =
loss.
>=20
> The
>=20
> hardware counts these losses, an ACP does not.
>=20
> For the FM and PM functions above, can we say they are part of an ACP?
>=20
> Thanks
>=20
> Mehmet
>=20
> From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com]
>=20
> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:34 AM
>=20
> To: Toy, Mehmet
>=20
> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>'; 'jiangsheng@huawei=
=2Ecom<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>'; 'anima-
>=20
> chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org>'; 'brian.e.carpente=
r@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>'
>=20
> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Hi Toy,
>=20
> To understand better: To me, fault management *uses* the functions
>=20
> of
>=20
> the AN infrastructure. It uses the ACP to communicate, maybe GRASP
>=20
> for some signalling, might be influenced by Intent, etc. Right?  So
>=20
> to me, this is a logical component of an autonomic network that sits
>=20
> on top of the AN infrastructure.
>=20
> Do we agree?
>=20
> Michael
>=20
>=20
>=20
> From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
>=20
> Sent: 13 October 2015 23:46
>=20
> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
>=20
> <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com><mailto:mbehring@cisco.co=
m><mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
>=20
> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>'
>=20
> <dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com><mailto:dromasca@avaya.co=
m><mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>;
>=20
> 'jiangsheng@huawei.com<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>'
>=20
> <jiangsheng@huawei.com<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com><mailto:jiangsheng@=
huawei.com><mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>>;
>=20
> 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>'
>=20
> <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org><mailto=
:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org><mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>;
>=20
> 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>'
>=20
> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com><mailto=
:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com><mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>
>=20
> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Michael,
>=20
> Appreciate the reply.
>=20
> FM is part of data plane and control plane (i.e. ANI in your diagram).
>=20
> My plan is to add a short paragraph for now either to section 2 to
>=20
> expand
>=20
> the description  of ANI or to section 4 to add a sub-section for
>=20
> Fault Management.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> It is also possible too add a Performance Management section to
>=20
> describe
>=20
> what types of measurements and where and how are used.  Although
>=20
> there is a control feedback related measurement in the document, I
>=20
> don=E2=80=99t know if it is adequate.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Mehmet
>=20
> From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com]
>=20
> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 12:27 PM
>=20
> To: Toy, Mehmet
>=20
> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>'; 'jiangsheng@huawei=
=2Ecom<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>'; 'anima-
>=20
> chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org>'; 'brian.e.carpente=
r@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>'
>=20
> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Sorry for the delay, it=E2=80=99s very busy at the moment here.
>=20
> To me, fault management refers generally to faults on the data
>=20
> plane, ie for
>=20
> user traffic. I see that happening at some point as an autonomic
>=20
> function (or several, for different aspects). Would you agree? Or do
>=20
> you see that as a function inside the AN infrastructure?
>=20
> So my feeling is that function would reside on top of the
>=20
> infrastructure that
>=20
> we=E2=80=99re currently defining. So, please have a look whether your
>=20
> thoughts can be described as an autonomic function. I think they probab=
ly
>=20
> can.
>=20
> Then I suggest we do the same that we=E2=80=99re planning to do with th=
e NMS
>=20
> section, the model discussion, etc: Have a short paragraph describe
>=20
> the overall topic briefly, and point to an external doc for now,
>=20
> i.e., probably your draft.
>=20
> If you agree, can you suggest where in the reference model you would
>=20
> add
>=20
> a short paragraph about fault management, and I suppose we=E2=80=99d po=
int to
>=20
> your draft, right?
>=20
> Michael
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
>=20
> Sent: 13 October 2015 03:53
>=20
> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
>=20
> <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com><mailto:mbehring@cisco.co=
m><mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
>=20
> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>'
>=20
> <dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com><mailto:dromasca@avaya.co=
m><mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>;
>=20
> 'jiangsheng@huawei.com<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>'
>=20
> <jiangsheng@huawei.com<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com><mailto:jiangsheng@=
huawei.com><mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>>;
>=20
> 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>'
>=20
> <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org><mailto=
:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org><mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>;
>=20
> 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>'
>=20
> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com><mailto=
:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com><mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>
>=20
> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Mike,
>=20
> I am waiting for your response.
>=20
> Thanks
>=20
> Mehmet
>=20
>=20
>=20
> From: Toy, Mehmet
>=20
> Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 8:13 PM
>=20
> To: 'mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>'
>=20
> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>'; 'jiangsheng@huawei=
=2Ecom<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>'; 'anima-
>=20
> chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org>'; 'brian.e.carpente=
r@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>'
>=20
> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Mike,
>=20
> I can send you some text to include in section 2 and 4 of  =E2=80=9CA
>=20
> Reference
>=20
> Model for Autonomic Networking,   draft-behringer-anima-reference-
>=20
> model-03=E2=80=9D,  per Sheng=E2=80=99s suggestion.
>=20
> Should I just do that?
>=20
> Thanks
>=20
> Mehmet
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> From: Toy, Mehmet
>=20
> Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 7:53 AM
>=20
> To: 'jiangsheng@huawei.com<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>'; 'anima-chair=
s@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>';
>=20
> 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>'; 'mbe=
hring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>'
>=20
> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>'
>=20
> Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Sheng,
>=20
> Appreciate a quick response.
>=20
> I will work on your suggestion.
>=20
> Mehmet
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com]
>=20
> Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 06:08 AM Eastern Standard Time
>=20
> To: Toy, Mehmet;
>=20
> anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org><mailto:=
anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org><mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>
>=20
> <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org><mailto=
:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org><mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>;
>=20
> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com><mailto:=
brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com><mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
>=20
> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com><mailto=
:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com><mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>;
>=20
> mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com><mailto:mbehring@cisco.com=
><mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>
>=20
> <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com><mailto:mbehring@cisco.co=
m><mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
>=20
> Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
>=20
> (dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com><mailto:dromasca@avaya.co=
m><mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>)
>=20
> <dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com><mailto:dromasca@avaya.co=
m><mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>
>=20
> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Hi, Toy,
>=20
> First of all, for my understanding, your work is in the scope of the
>=20
> WG
>=20
> charter. However, we do not have work item or milestone for it. It
>=20
> looks like an upper-layer autonomic service agent for me. In our
>=20
> plan, autonomic service agents are mainly for the next period, which
>=20
> is after re-charter (this is the same with your suggestion of
>=20
> modifying the charter, but it cannot happen until we deliver the
>=20
> current milestones). For now, the best may be try to add some
>=20
> description, maybe mainly abstracted functionality, into the reference
>=20
> model document.
>=20
> Best regards,
>=20
> Sheng
>=20
>=20
>=20
> From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
>=20
> Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 1:14 AM
>=20
> To: anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org><mai=
lto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org><mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>;
>=20
> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com><mailto:=
brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com><mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>;
>=20
> mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com><mailto:mbehring@cisco.com=
><mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>
>=20
> Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
>=20
> (dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com><mailto:dromasca@avaya.co=
m><mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>)
>=20
> Subject: Self-Managed Networks
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Dear All:
>=20
> I couldn=E2=80=99t attend the Prague meeting, but luckily Dan was able =
to
>=20
> present
>=20
> my slides on =E2=80=9CSelf-Managed Networks with Fault Management
>=20
> Hierarchy=E2=80=9D.
>=20
> The feedback was to position the work in the ANIMA WG scope and
>=20
> framework.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ANIMA charter in =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et. al., A Reference Model for
>=20
> Autonomic
>=20
> Networking
>=20
> draft-behringer-anima-reference-model-03=E2=80=9D refers to =E2=80=9Cse=
lf-healing=E2=80=9D.
>=20
> RFC7575,  =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et al.,   Autonomic Networking: Defini=
tions and
>=20
> Design Goals=E2=80=9D,  refers to =E2=80=9Cself-management=E2=80=9D. Ho=
wever, both documents
>=20
> do not  articulate fault management aspect of the self-management.
>=20
> It is possible to interpret the fault management aspect of autonomic
>=20
> networks as part of =E2=80=9Cself-healing=E2=80=9D and therefore as par=
t of the ANIMA
>=20
> charter.  In that case, the =E2=80=9CArchitectural Framework for Self-M=
anaged
>=20
> Networks with Fault Management Hierarchy,
>=20
> draft-mtoy-anima-self-faultmang-framework-
>=20
> 00.txt=E2=80=9D contribution can target to fill that gap.  The control =
plane
>=20
> aspect of self-healing is addressed by =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et al., A=
n
>=20
> Autonomic Control Plane,
>=20
> draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane-03=E2=80=9D.  I believe t=
hese
>=20
> contributions are complementary to each other. I can try to address tha=
t
>=20
> in the contribution.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Please let me know if you agree with me. If not, I suggest to modify
>=20
> the
>=20
> charter since without covering fault management aspect of the
>=20
> autonomic networks, the concept of autonomic network will be
>=20
> incomplete.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Mehmet
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
>=20
> Anima mailing list
>=20
> Anima@ietf.org<mailto:Anima@ietf.org>
>=20
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
>=20
> Anima mailing list
>=20
> Anima@ietf.org<mailto:Anima@ietf.org>
>=20
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>=20
> --
>=20
> Bien cordialement, Best regards,
>=20
> Laurent Ciavaglia
> Secure Cloud Networking
> Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent
>=20
> phone: +33 160 402 636
> email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com<mailto:laurent.ciavaglia@al=
catel-lucent.com>
> linkedin: laurentciavaglia<http://fr.linkedin.com/in/laurentciavaglia/>=

> address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France
>=20


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To: "Toy, Mehmet" <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>, "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BBB558B@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <7145ab65268b4fb3b279e2ce9da1fdaa@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <cbc6f29eda114b848f3dac35609b2da8@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <9c8b64c962c443f19f6fd784cb9927a7@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <7512f6b600904c49838fcf729e3000a5@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <334e22acb30e487eb7f5a2d41fb54499@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <ff7789800a574fcb901e096a0a11f5bb@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <dd5a46abd24c49d2a9acd31a608ef7e8@VAADCEX37.cable.comcast.com> <14fdc79570b54d0e9562382c5d53a3ef@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <561EC845.9020505@gmail.com> <c1e45907707f42d3ae1e9beb0647a760@VAADCEX37.cable.comcast.com> <03347fe65bce48e9ba28827f5c4c0624@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <c44ededa670e43588987bd30b2f68e88@VAADCEX37.cable.comcast.com> <562092DA.3070800@gmail.com> <96d898f9fda94793a50cd029780ab82c@VAADCEX37.cable.comcast.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
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Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 10:36:24 +1300
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Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/Auw-qPM90tykay711uqAcD8KLJo>
Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
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On 17/10/2015 04:35, Toy, Mehmet wrote:
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]=20
> Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 2:02 AM
> To: Toy, Mehmet; Michael Behringer (mbehring); anima@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks
>=20
> On 16/10/2015 16:36, Toy, Mehmet wrote:
>> Michael,
>>
>> Before I pick each of your statement and express my thoughts, I would =
like to ask more questions by picking your  statement " There is *one* AC=
P, there are *many* autonomic functions on top.".   Assume we  start buil=
ding on this to see how far we can go, whether this holds for all cases o=
r not, I don't know. =20
>>
>> If we have two or more ACPs, what could go wrong?
>=20
> Why would a domain need more than one ACP? (Certainly there might be a =
transient situation after a temporary network partition where two ACPs wo=
uld "meet" and then need to merge; indeed the ACP needs to be self-repair=
ing in such cases.)

> MT:  Does that mean that ACP is for one AS? If it is, how do we deal wi=
th a network of multiple ASs?

An ACP is for one autonomic domain. If that isn't clear in the ACP draft,=
 I'm sure
Michael will fix it.

>=20
>> What is it that you are trying to do here? What is the purpose behind =
this model?
>=20
> Provide a secure L3 between all autonomic nodes that is strictly indepe=
ndent of the operational data plane. The purpose is to allow autonomic op=
erations to work regardless of anything else.
> MT:  Does this mean Autonomous nodes are part of a layer above "infrast=
ructure (i.e. operational data plane)"?  If it is what is that layer? Is =
it part of a control plane?

AutonomIC Nodes form a control plane, indeed. We expect that it will co-e=
xist with
traditional control planes in the real world.

>>
>> Furthermore, I suggest you to think about ETSI NFV model,=20
>> "infrastructure" and "VNF" division of networks.  What is wrong in=20
>> using that kind of model here which is a reasonable breakdown,
>=20
> We aren't reinventing NFV, as far as I can tell. If there is a recent t=
echnical overview of NFV, that would be interesting to see. But I don't b=
elieve that Autonomic Service Agents are at all the same thing as VNFs.
> MT: OK, then why are not we using "infrastructure" terminology? Is ACP =
above the infrastructure?=20

Does it matter? It's a virtual layer that happens to run over link-local
packets, so doesn't depened on the data plane layer 3.

    Brian

>> instead of sticking with ACP  that is becoming very difficult to defin=
e?
>=20
> Huh? draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane is still work in progress=
 but it seems very clearly defined to me. In sketching out how GRASP will=
 be implemented, I haven't hit any conceptual problems with the ACP, and =
its main API will just be socket calls. The only complication I found is =
that it will need to support the Advanced Socket API because of some spec=
ial requirements for link-local multicasts. Otherwise, it's just another =
virtual (loopback) network interface.
> MT: I will talk to Toerless this afternoon to make sure I fully underst=
and the approach.  However, it could be useful to pick a network of 4 nod=
es (2 PEs and 2Ps) and clearly  indicate what functions constitute an ACP=
 and what functions constitute ASs,
>=20
> Regards
>    Brian
>=20
>>
>> Thanks
>> Mehmet
>>  =20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 4:57 AM
>> To: Toy, Mehmet; Brian E Carpenter; anima@ietf.org
>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>
>> Toy, thanks for raising those questions. Obviously, we're not doing a =
good job yet in describing what the ACP is, and that needs to be fixed. A=
nd obviously, we all need the same view to progress further. So this is a=
 very important discussion, and I really welcome it.=20
>>
>> Before formalising better text, let me see whether we get agreement on=
 the fundamental idea.=20
>>
>> In my head, there are two layers: The ACP, and on top of that the Auto=
nomic Functions:=20
>>
>> * The ACP is the "tool kit". It comprises various "mechanics", such as=
 negotiation, synchronisation, discovery of various sorts, messaging, etc=
=2E Those are all based on a common addressing and naming concept.=20
>>
>> * Autonomic Functions use that tool kit to do something clever. In oth=
er words, the true autonomic "intelligence" sits on that level.=20
>>
>> There is *one* ACP, there are *many* autonomic functions on top.=20
>>
>> One way to decide to which layer something belongs is to ask: "is this=
 (1) a generic functionality which many functions require, or is this (2)=
 one specific function?". If the answer is (1), it belongs into the ACP, =
if (2) it belongs into an autonomic function.=20
>>
>> So, in this light, my understanding (!) of fault management is that=20
>> this is an autonomic function, and would use common blocks of the=20
>> underlying ACP. Conversely, it would not offer services to other=20
>> autonomic functions on top. This is my way of thinking when I write=20
>> "this is an autonomic function".  And I'm not 100% certain I=20
>> understand what you're suggesting, so please chime in here! (And I=20
>> haven't read your draft fully yet, sorry)
>>
>> Look at=20
>> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-01.txt
>> This draft describes "intelligence". In that case, a way to automatica=
lly manage address space. Sections 2.2 and 2.3 explain which parameters a=
nd information exchanges such a function would require. Sheng wrote this =
document to explain how an autonomic function would use a common ACP.=20
>>
>> Probably we should take some off-line time in Yokohama to discuss this=
 in a small team?=20
>>
>> Michael
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Toy, Mehmet
>>> Sent: 15 October 2015 04:26
>>> To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>; Michael=20
>>> Behringer
>>> (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com>; anima@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
>>>
>>> Michael and Brian,
>>> Per Toerless suggestion, I am including ANIMA group into the discussi=
on.
>>>
>>> I re-read the "A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking" document=20
>>> and I am not clear about the definitions.
>>>
>>> a)  In the "A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking", ACP is=20
>>> defined as "The Autonomic Control Plane is the summary of all=20
>>> interactions of the Autonomic Networking Infrastructure with other no=
des and services.".
>>>
>>> b) Brian, you write as " The ACP is common infrastructure for all=20
>>> autonomic functions.(The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of course.) =

>>> The signaling protocol is also common infrastructure."
>>>
>>> Question: What is ACP? a or b or combination?
>>>
>>> c) Section 4 in the reference model document , "The Autonomic=20
>>> Networking Infrastructure provides a layer of common  functionality=20
>>> across an Autonomic Network.  It comprises "must implement" functions=
=20
>>> and services, as well as extensions."
>>> Question: What are the "must implement" functionalities?  How do you =

>>> define "must implement" functionalities?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Mehmet
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM
>>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); Toy, Mehmet
>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-=20
>>> chairs@tools.ietf.org'
>>> Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks
>>>
>>> I agree with Michael. The ACP is common infrastructure for all=20
>>> autonomic functions.
>>> (The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of course.) The signaling=20
>>> protocol is also common infrastructure.
>>>
>>>    Brian
>>> On 15/10/2015 05:43, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
>>>> I would argue they are part of an autonomic function, which runs on =

>>>> top of
>>> the ACP.
>>>> There are really two different pieces here, and this is I think the =

>>>> confusion
>>> here:
>>>>
>>>> -          The ACP is self-managing. It needs to do self-healing, an=
d
>>> automatically adapt to new situations. But to me, this isn=E2=80=99t =
fault=20
>>> management or performance management as an operator understands it.
>>>>
>>>> -          The network has FM and PM function. Those could be (and s=
hould
>>> be, imo) autonomic functions. Those run on top of the ACP.
>>>> Bottom line: I=E2=80=99d like to keep the ACP itself as minimalistic=
 and=20
>>>> simple as we
>>> possibly can. Functions like FM / PM belong into an autonomic functio=
n, IMO.
>>>> What do you think?
>>>> Michael
>>>> From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
>>>> Sent: 14 October 2015 18:30
>>>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com>
>>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com' <dromasca@avaya.com>;
>>> 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'
>>>> <jiangsheng@huawei.com>; 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org'
>>>> <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
>>>> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>>
>>>> Michael,
>>>> Instead of answering the question as Yes or No, let me give examples=
=20
>>>> to
>>> see what makes sense.
>>>> Let=E2=80=99s say in a data path, a router port is failed.  The rout=
er=20
>>>> generates an AIS
>>> (Alarm Indication Signal) and the receiving  end generates RDI=20
>>> (remote Defect Indicator).  Both messages are generated by the hardwa=
re, not by a
>>> software or ACP.   As a result of this failure,  there would be packe=
t loss. The
>>> hardware counts these losses, an ACP does not.
>>>> For the FM and PM functions above, can we say they are part of an AC=
P?
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Mehmet
>>>> From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com]
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:34 AM
>>>> To: Toy, Mehmet
>>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
>>> chairs@tools.ietf.org'; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
>>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>>
>>>> Hi Toy,
>>>> To understand better: To me, fault management *uses* the functions=20
>>>> of
>>> the AN infrastructure. It uses the ACP to communicate, maybe GRASP=20
>>> for some signalling, might be influenced by Intent, etc. Right?  So=20
>>> to me, this is a logical component of an autonomic network that sits =

>>> on top of the AN infrastructure.
>>>> Do we agree?
>>>> Michael
>>>>
>>>> From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
>>>> Sent: 13 October 2015 23:46
>>>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
>>>> <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
>>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'
>>>> <dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>;
>>>> 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'
>>>> <jiangsheng@huawei.com<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>>;
>>>> 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org'
>>>> <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>;
>>>> 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
>>>> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>
>>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>>
>>>> Michael,
>>>> Appreciate the reply.
>>>> FM is part of data plane and control plane (i.e. ANI in your diagram=
).
>>>> My plan is to add a short paragraph for now either to section 2 to=20
>>>> expand
>>> the description  of ANI or to section 4 to add a sub-section for=20
>>> Fault Management.
>>>>
>>>> It is also possible too add a Performance Management section to=20
>>>> describe
>>> what types of measurements and where and how are used.  Although=20
>>> there is a control feedback related measurement in the document, I=20
>>> don=E2=80=99t know if it is adequate.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Mehmet
>>>> From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 12:27 PM
>>>> To: Toy, Mehmet
>>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
>>> chairs@tools.ietf.org'; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
>>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>>
>>>> Sorry for the delay, it=E2=80=99s very busy at the moment here.
>>>> To me, fault management refers generally to faults on the data=20
>>>> plane, ie for
>>> user traffic. I see that happening at some point as an autonomic=20
>>> function (or several, for different aspects). Would you agree? Or do =

>>> you see that as a function inside the AN infrastructure?
>>>> So my feeling is that function would reside on top of the=20
>>>> infrastructure that
>>> we=E2=80=99re currently defining. So, please have a look whether your=
=20
>>> thoughts can be described as an autonomic function. I think they prob=
ably can.
>>>> Then I suggest we do the same that we=E2=80=99re planning to do with=
 the NMS
>>> section, the model discussion, etc: Have a short paragraph describe=20
>>> the overall topic briefly, and point to an external doc for now,=20
>>> i.e., probably your draft.
>>>> If you agree, can you suggest where in the reference model you would=
=20
>>>> add
>>> a short paragraph about fault management, and I suppose we=E2=80=99d =
point to=20
>>> your draft, right?
>>>> Michael
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
>>>> Sent: 13 October 2015 03:53
>>>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
>>>> <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
>>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'
>>>> <dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>;
>>>> 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'
>>>> <jiangsheng@huawei.com<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>>;
>>>> 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org'
>>>> <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>;
>>>> 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
>>>> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>
>>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>>
>>>> Mike,
>>>> I am waiting for your response.
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Mehmet
>>>>
>>>> From: Toy, Mehmet
>>>> Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 8:13 PM
>>>> To: 'mbehring@cisco.com'
>>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
>>> chairs@tools.ietf.org'; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
>>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>>
>>>> Mike,
>>>> I can send you some text to include in section 2 and 4 of  =E2=80=9C=
A=20
>>>> Reference
>>> Model for Autonomic Networking,   draft-behringer-anima-reference-
>>> model-03=E2=80=9D,  per Sheng=E2=80=99s suggestion.
>>>> Should I just do that?
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Mehmet
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Toy, Mehmet
>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 7:53 AM
>>>> To: 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org';
>>> 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'; 'mbehring@cisco.com'
>>>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'
>>>> Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks
>>>>
>>>> Sheng,
>>>> Appreciate a quick response.
>>>> I will work on your suggestion.
>>>> Mehmet
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com]
>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 06:08 AM Eastern Standard Time
>>>> To: Toy, Mehmet;
>>>> anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>
>>>> <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>;
>>>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
>>>> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>;
>>>> mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>
>>>> <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
>>>> Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
>>>> (dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>)
>>>> <dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>
>>>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>>>>
>>>> Hi, Toy,
>>>> First of all, for my understanding, your work is in the scope of the=
=20
>>>> WG
>>> charter. However, we do not have work item or milestone for it. It=20
>>> looks like an upper-layer autonomic service agent for me. In our=20
>>> plan, autonomic service agents are mainly for the next period, which =

>>> is after re-charter (this is the same with your suggestion of=20
>>> modifying the charter, but it cannot happen until we deliver the=20
>>> current milestones). For now, the best may be try to add some=20
>>> description, maybe mainly abstracted functionality, into the referenc=
e model document.
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> Sheng
>>>>
>>>> From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 1:14 AM
>>>> To: anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>;=

>>>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>;
>>>> mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>
>>>> Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
>>>> (dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>)
>>>> Subject: Self-Managed Networks
>>>>
>>>> Dear All:
>>>> I couldn=E2=80=99t attend the Prague meeting, but luckily Dan was ab=
le to=20
>>>> present
>>> my slides on =E2=80=9CSelf-Managed Networks with Fault Management Hie=
rarchy=E2=80=9D.
>>> The feedback was to position the work in the ANIMA WG scope and=20
>>> framework.
>>>>
>>>> ANIMA charter in =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et. al., A Reference Model f=
or=20
>>>> Autonomic
>>> Networking
>>>> draft-behringer-anima-reference-model-03=E2=80=9D refers to =E2=80=9C=
self-healing=E2=80=9D.
>>> RFC7575,  =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et al.,   Autonomic Networking: Defi=
nitions and
>>> Design Goals=E2=80=9D,  refers to =E2=80=9Cself-management=E2=80=9D. =
However, both documents=20
>>> do not  articulate fault management aspect of the self-management. =20
>>> It is possible to interpret the fault management aspect of autonomic =

>>> networks as part of =E2=80=9Cself-healing=E2=80=9D and therefore as p=
art of the ANIMA=20
>>> charter.  In that case, the =E2=80=9CArchitectural Framework for Self=
-Managed=20
>>> Networks with Fault Management Hierarchy,
>>> draft-mtoy-anima-self-faultmang-framework-
>>> 00.txt=E2=80=9D contribution can target to fill that gap.  The contro=
l plane=20
>>> aspect of self-healing is addressed by =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et al.,=
 An=20
>>> Autonomic Control Plane,=20
>>> draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane-03=E2=80=9D.  I believe=
 these=20
>>> contributions are complementary to each other. I can try to address t=
hat in the contribution.
>>>>
>>>> Please let me know if you agree with me. If not, I suggest to modify=
=20
>>>> the
>>> charter since without covering fault management aspect of the=20
>>> autonomic networks, the concept of autonomic network will be incomple=
te.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Mehmet
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Anima mailing list
>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>=20
>=20


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From: John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com>
To: "Toy, Mehmet" <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>, John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com>
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Cc: "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
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Hi,

sorry for the late reply, I've been buried in writing I-Ds.

In response to the original train of emails (not the latest from
Mehmet), Michael made a key point:

> The ACP is self-managing. It needs to do self-healing, and
> automatically adapt to new situations. But to me, this isn=E2=80=99t
> fault management or performance management as an
> operator understands it.

The last phrase ("as an operator understands it) is what is so
important. We need to differentiate between functions that
the Autonomic System provides and functions that are visible
to the operator.

When an autonomic system self-heals, why would the operator
need to know? This is comparable to routing doing its job and
changing the path. There is no reason that the operator has to
be alerted on every change in the system - there are already
WAY TOO MANY of these for the operator to handle.

IMHO, there are core functions provided by the ACP, and functions
that sit on top of the ACP and use these core functions. FM and PM
should sit on top of the ACP. Otherwise, the ACP doesn't scale,
because why is FM or PM more important than config mgmt.,
security, accounting, analytics, ...?

Finally, I don't see any difference between a) and b). You have an
ACP, and you have a set of Autonomic Functions that use the ACP.
(You probably have different layers of Autonomic Functions, where
a core set of Autonomic Functions are reused by other Autonomic
Functions to provide more powerful Autonomic Functions, but this
hasn't been discussed yet (I think)). The point is that you must start
with a small set of Autonomic Functions. Otherwise, the ACP becomes
a big, bloated, Ball of Mud and will end up useless.

regards,
John

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi,</div><div><br></div><div>sorry for the late reply=
, I&#39;ve been buried in writing I-Ds.</div><div><br></div><div>In respons=
e to the original train of emails (not the latest from </div><div>Mehmet), =
Michael made a key point:</div><div><br></div><div>&gt; The ACP is self-man=
aging. It needs to do self-healing, and</div><div>&gt; automatically adapt =
to new situations. But to me, this isn=E2=80=99t</div><div>&gt; fault manag=
ement or performance management as an </div><div>&gt; operator understands =
it.</div><div><br></div><div>The last phrase (&quot;as an operator understa=
nds it) is what is so</div><div>important.=C2=A0We need to differentiate be=
tween functions that</div><div>the=C2=A0Autonomic System provides and funct=
ions that are visible</div><div>to the operator.</div><div><br></div><div>W=
hen an autonomic system self-heals, why would the operator</div><div>need t=
o know? This is comparable to routing doing its job and</div><div>changing =
the path. There is no reason that the operator has to</div><div>be alerted =
on every change in the system - there are already</div><div>WAY TOO MANY of=
 these for the operator to handle.</div><div><br></div><div>IMHO, there are=
 core functions provided by the ACP, and functions</div><div>that sit on to=
p of the ACP and use these core functions. FM and PM</div><div>should sit o=
n top of the=C2=A0ACP. Otherwise, the ACP doesn&#39;t scale,</div><div>beca=
use why is FM or PM more important than config mgmt., </div><div>security, =
accounting, analytics, ...?</div><div><br></div><div>Finally, I don&#39;t s=
ee any difference between a) and b). You have an</div><div>ACP, and you hav=
e a set of Autonomic Functions that use the ACP.</div><div>(You probably ha=
ve different layers of Autonomic Functions, where</div><div>a core set of A=
utonomic Functions are reused by other Autonomic</div><div>Functions to pro=
vide more powerful Autonomic Functions, but this</div><div>hasn&#39;t been =
discussed yet (I think)). The point is that you must start</div><div>with a=
 small set of Autonomic Functions. Otherwise, the ACP becomes</div><div>a b=
ig, bloated, Ball of Mud and will end up useless.</div><div><br></div><div>=
regards,</div><div>John</div>
</div>

--001a1143e0741e4e69052250cc1e--


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From: John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com>
To: "Toy, Mehmet" <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>, John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com>, Toerless Eckert <eckert@cisco.com>
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Cc: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\) \(dromasca@avaya.com\)" <dromasca@avaya.com>, "mbehring@cisco.com" <mbehring@cisco.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
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Hi all,

Toerless wrote:

> 1) easily, ideally autonomous downloadable agent/application infra.
<jcs>
Frankly, I've never thought of that. However, I'm not sure that this is a
complete answer. Without specifications that define how the agents
and app infrastructure are built, how they communicate, etc., I don't
see how this works. So shouldn't the ANIMA WG build those specs?

Just because something can be downloaded and deployed doesn't
mean it is useful. Remember the disaster that was Active Networks,
which set AI in networking back two decades.
</jcs>

Mehmet wrote:

MT: What I propose is unlikely to be done completely just by autonomic
agents or software, but can be partially done by autonomic agents.  This is
the key reason for these email exchanges.
<jcs>
You lost me. If it isn't software, then it must be hardware. I like ASICs
and FPGAs, but they can't do everything, especially in an adaptive
environment. Please elaborate more.
</jcs>

 ...

Mehmet wrote:
MT: In general I am not in favor of defining another control layer for this
purposes. Therefore, my proposed design  does not need and does not have a
protocol for communications.
<jcs>
Then how do different autonomic elements find each other and form
themselves into a group that can do something useful?
</jcs>
...

regards,
John

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Toy, Mehmet <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>
wrote:

> Toerless,
> Please see below.
> Thanks
> Mehmet
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:eckert@cisco.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:16 PM
> To: Toy, Mehmet
> Cc: anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org; brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com;
> mbehring@cisco.com; Romascanu, Dan (Dan) (dromasca@avaya.com)
> Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks
>
> Toy:
>
> Unless you feel its more appropriate to keep this discussion in this
> closed mailing list, i would suggest to have it on the anima mailing list.
>
> First off: You've compressed really a lot of crucial arch design from your
> detailed first slidedeck into this a lot more pithy, yet comprehensive
> first draft. I think my main concern is how we can work on the SW
> engineering aspects of how to build it and build upon the anima
> infrastructure.
>
> I think i did ask you some IETFs ago when you presented your slides, that
> it would be good if we could focus on that aspect.
>
> Eg: Could we add a section to the document outlining a summary of how this
> framework would leverage and benefit from the the currently planned anima
> infrastructure - why/ how to use it - so we know the requirements we have,
> especially if those are any we would need to consider during recharter.
> MT: As you can see from my previous email, I am not on board with current
> architectural definitions.  Once we are sync on the definitions of
> architectural components, I should make an attempt to address your concerns.
>
> If you'd ask me, primarily as a contributor considering what would best
> help to make this happen - and move ANIMA forward, i think the key aspects
> are:
>
> 1) easily, ideally autonomous downloadable agent/application infra.
>
> Eg: I don't see any way that either vendors or operators could
> realistically build this framework if these components are tied into the
> classical router OS software delivery model where it takes months to
> validate a sofftware update and more months to deploy it. If this can be
> downloaded, as separate apps then its so much easier to incrementally
> build/deploy it on a totally different deployment process.
>
> How exactly should this be done so operators like comcast will most likely
> start incrementally deploying this ?
>
> Eg: I am sure autonomic agents will be the next re-charter item, the
> functionality you describe for fault-management via such agents is great,
> and i can see how that is just good work to refine, so i am mostly worred
> about the sW-engineering and operational aspects of such autonomic agents.
>
> MT: What I propose is unlikely to be done completely just by autonomic
> agents or software, but can be partially done by autonomic agents.  This is
> the key reason for these email exchanges.
>
> 2) Clear APIs to existing router operations.
>
> We would need to have an idea how these new components would talk to the
> rest of the router. This seems like an eay "oh, we can have those agents do
> 30 year old router CLI locally, but we'd prefer Netconf/Yang with IETF
> standardized models, and we do need the following yang models for the first
> important FP operations". There is also talk about expanding into Thrift
> for higher performance data collection (beyond netconf, still with yang).
>
> MT: Agree, but we are far from these steps.  We have to agree on the
> fundamentals.
> 3) connectivity between the agents.
>
> This is primarily where at the lowest layer the ACP would come in and it
> would be great to see argument if/how security, zero-touch build-up and
> indestructibility are required and/or beneficial for these agents
> functions.  You already mention the security aspect in your security
> section. Great.
>
> Next layer is leveraging GRASP as a protocol for agent-to-agent
> communication. Is it feasible/beneficial to expect a common new message
> signaling layer with GRAP ? If so, it would be great to describee why and
> how. Eg: what communication patterns would your agents have, do the
> patterns GRASP support suit your agents ?
> MT: In general I am not in favor of defining another control layer for
> this purposes. Therefore, my proposed design  does not need and does not
> have a protocol for communications.
>
> Your section 7 already has one specific layer of message communicartions,
> but it is directly tied to ethernet frame. I'd like to understand this
> better. I for once would think one would define for the message eleemnts a
> Yang/CBOR data model "failure management yang model". Then we look how to
> carry it. agent-to-agent, i would propose to actually run over GRASP (using
> CBOR representation of course), but to humans behind an NMS its more likely
> via netconf/yang from an agent into the NMS.
> MT: Ethernet frame is just an example. We can collectively decide to have
> something else. The key point here is to have one message format for all FM
> related communications.
>
> There may be other aspects, but if this makes sense to you, it would be
> great if we could get such a section added. Let me know if you need any
> help with that.
> MT: Appreciate the offer. Again we need to sync up on the fundamentals
> first.
>
> Cheers
>     Toerless
>
> On Mon, Oct 05, 2015 at 05:14:19PM +0000, Toy, Mehmet wrote:
> > Dear All:
> > I couldn't attend the Prague meeting, but luckily Dan was able to
> present my slides on "Self-Managed Networks with Fault Management
> Hierarchy".   The feedback was to position the work in the ANIMA WG scope
> and framework.
> >
> > ANIMA charter in "M. Behringer, et. al., A Reference Model for Autonomic
> Networking
> > draft-behringer-anima-reference-model-03" refers to "self-healing".
> RFC7575,  "M. Behringer, et al.,   Autonomic Networking: Definitions and
> Design Goals",  refers to "self-management". However, both documents do
> not  articulate fault management aspect of the self-management.  It is
> possible to interpret the fault management aspect of autonomic networks as
> part of "self-healing" and therefore as part of the ANIMA charter.  In that
> case, the "Architectural Framework for Self-Managed Networks with Fault
> Management Hierarchy, draft-mtoy-anima-self-faultmang-framework-00.txt"
> contribution can target to fill that gap.  The control plane aspect of
> self-healing is addressed by "M. Behringer, et al., An Autonomic Control
> Plane, draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane-03".  I believe these
> contributions are complementary to each other. I can try to address that in
> the contribution.
> >
> > Please let me know if you agree with me. If not, I suggest to modify the
> charter since without covering fault management aspect of the autonomic
> networks, the concept of autonomic network will be incomplete.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Mehmet
> >
> >
>
> --
> ---
> Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>



-- 
regards,
John

--001a1141d9f086894d0522517eb3
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi all,</div><div><br></div><div>Toerless wrote:</div=
><div><br></div><div>&gt; 1) easily, ideally autonomous downloadable agent/=
application infra.<br></div><div>&lt;jcs&gt;</div><div>Frankly, I&#39;ve ne=
ver thought of that. However, I&#39;m not sure that this is a</div><div>com=
plete answer.=C2=A0Without specifications that define how the agents</div><=
div>and app infrastructure are built, how they communicate, etc., I don&#39=
;t</div><div>see how this works. So shouldn&#39;t the ANIMA WG build those =
specs?</div><div><br></div><div>Just because something can be downloaded an=
d deployed doesn&#39;t </div><div>mean it=C2=A0is useful. Remember the disa=
ster that was Active Networks,</div><div>which set AI in networking back tw=
o decades.</div><div>&lt;/jcs&gt;</div><div><br></div><div>Mehmet wrote:</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>MT: What I propose is unlikely to be done completely=
 just by autonomic agents or software, but can be partially done by autonom=
ic agents.=C2=A0 This is the key reason for these email exchanges.</div><di=
v>&lt;jcs&gt;</div><div>You lost me.=C2=A0If it isn&#39;t software, then it=
 must be hardware. I like ASICs</div><div>and FPGAs, but they can&#39;t do =
everything, especially in an adaptive</div><div>environment. Please elabora=
te more.</div><div>&lt;/jcs&gt;<br><br>=C2=A0...</div><div><br></div><div>M=
ehmet wrote:</div><div>MT: In general I am not in favor of defining another=
 control layer for this purposes. Therefore, my proposed design=C2=A0 does =
not need and does not have a protocol for communications.</div><div>&lt;jcs=
&gt;</div><div>Then how do different autonomic elements find each other and=
 form</div><div>themselves into a group that can do something useful?</div>=
<div>&lt;/jcs&gt;<br></div><div>...<br></div><div><br></div><div>regards,</=
div><div>John<br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"g=
mail_quote">On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Toy, Mehmet <span dir=3D"ltr">=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com" target=3D"_blank">Mehme=
t_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:=
1ex">Toerless,<br>
Please see below.<br>
Thanks<br>
Mehmet<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:eckert@cisco.com">eckert@ci=
sco.com</a>]<br>
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:16 PM<br>
To: Toy, Mehmet<br>
Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.=
org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@g=
mail.com</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a>;=
 Romascanu, Dan (Dan) (<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya=
.com</a>)<br>
Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks<br>
<br>
Toy:<br>
<br>
Unless you feel its more appropriate to keep this discussion in this closed=
 mailing list, i would suggest to have it on the anima mailing list.<br>
<br>
First off: You&#39;ve compressed really a lot of crucial arch design from y=
our detailed first slidedeck into this a lot more pithy, yet comprehensive =
first draft. I think my main concern is how we can work on the SW engineeri=
ng aspects of how to build it and build upon the anima infrastructure.<br>
<br>
I think i did ask you some IETFs ago when you presented your slides, that i=
t would be good if we could focus on that aspect.<br>
<br>
Eg: Could we add a section to the document outlining a summary of how this =
framework would leverage and benefit from the the currently planned anima i=
nfrastructure - why/ how to use it - so we know the requirements we have, e=
specially if those are any we would need to consider during recharter.<br>
MT: As you can see from my previous email, I am not on board with current a=
rchitectural definitions.=C2=A0 Once we are sync on the definitions of arch=
itectural components, I should make an attempt to address your concerns.<br=
>
<br>
If you&#39;d ask me, primarily as a contributor considering what would best=
 help to make this happen - and move ANIMA forward, i think the key aspects=
 are:<br>
<br>
1) easily, ideally autonomous downloadable agent/application infra.<br>
<br>
Eg: I don&#39;t see any way that either vendors or operators could realisti=
cally build this framework if these components are tied into the classical =
router OS software delivery model where it takes months to validate a sofft=
ware update and more months to deploy it. If this can be downloaded, as sep=
arate apps then its so much easier to incrementally build/deploy it on a to=
tally different deployment process.<br>
<br>
How exactly should this be done so operators like comcast will most likely =
start incrementally deploying this ?<br>
<br>
Eg: I am sure autonomic agents will be the next re-charter item, the functi=
onality you describe for fault-management via such agents is great, and i c=
an see how that is just good work to refine, so i am mostly worred about th=
e sW-engineering and operational aspects of such autonomic agents.<br>
<br>
MT: What I propose is unlikely to be done completely just by autonomic agen=
ts or software, but can be partially done by autonomic agents.=C2=A0 This i=
s the key reason for these email exchanges.<br>
<br>
2) Clear APIs to existing router operations.<br>
<br>
We would need to have an idea how these new components would talk to the re=
st of the router. This seems like an eay &quot;oh, we can have those agents=
 do 30 year old router CLI locally, but we&#39;d prefer Netconf/Yang with I=
ETF standardized models, and we do need the following yang models for the f=
irst important FP operations&quot;. There is also talk about expanding into=
 Thrift for higher performance data collection (beyond netconf, still with =
yang).<br>
<br>
MT: Agree, but we are far from these steps.=C2=A0 We have to agree on the f=
undamentals.<br>
3) connectivity between the agents.<br>
<br>
This is primarily where at the lowest layer the ACP would come in and it wo=
uld be great to see argument if/how security, zero-touch build-up and indes=
tructibility are required and/or beneficial for these agents functions.=C2=
=A0 You already mention the security aspect in your security section. Great=
.<br>
<br>
Next layer is leveraging GRASP as a protocol for agent-to-agent communicati=
on. Is it feasible/beneficial to expect a common new message signaling laye=
r with GRAP ? If so, it would be great to describee why and how. Eg: what c=
ommunication patterns would your agents have, do the patterns GRASP support=
 suit your agents ?<br>
MT: In general I am not in favor of defining another control layer for this=
 purposes. Therefore, my proposed design=C2=A0 does not need and does not h=
ave a protocol for communications.<br>
<br>
Your section 7 already has one specific layer of message communicartions, b=
ut it is directly tied to ethernet frame. I&#39;d like to understand this b=
etter. I for once would think one would define for the message eleemnts a Y=
ang/CBOR data model &quot;failure management yang model&quot;. Then we look=
 how to carry it. agent-to-agent, i would propose to actually run over GRAS=
P (using CBOR representation of course), but to humans behind an NMS its mo=
re likely via netconf/yang from an agent into the NMS.<br>
MT: Ethernet frame is just an example. We can collectively decide to have s=
omething else. The key point here is to have one message format for all FM =
related communications.<br>
<br>
There may be other aspects, but if this makes sense to you, it would be gre=
at if we could get such a section added. Let me know if you need any help w=
ith that.<br>
MT: Appreciate the offer. Again we need to sync up on the fundamentals firs=
t.<br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Toerless<br>
<br>
On Mon, Oct 05, 2015 at 05:14:19PM +0000, Toy, Mehmet wrote:<br>
&gt; Dear All:<br>
&gt; I couldn&#39;t attend the Prague meeting, but luckily Dan was able to =
present my slides on &quot;Self-Managed Networks with Fault Management Hier=
archy&quot;.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The feedback was to position the work in the ANIMA=
 WG scope and framework.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; ANIMA charter in &quot;M. Behringer, et. al., A Reference Model for Au=
tonomic Networking<br>
&gt; draft-behringer-anima-reference-model-03&quot; refers to &quot;self-he=
aling&quot;.=C2=A0 RFC7575,=C2=A0 &quot;M. Behringer, et al.,=C2=A0 =C2=A0A=
utonomic Networking: Definitions and Design Goals&quot;,=C2=A0 refers to &q=
uot;self-management&quot;. However, both documents do not=C2=A0 articulate =
fault management aspect of the self-management.=C2=A0 It is possible to int=
erpret the fault management aspect of autonomic networks as part of &quot;s=
elf-healing&quot; and therefore as part of the ANIMA charter.=C2=A0 In that=
 case, the &quot;Architectural Framework for Self-Managed Networks with Fau=
lt Management Hierarchy, draft-mtoy-anima-self-faultmang-framework-00.txt&q=
uot; contribution can target to fill that gap.=C2=A0 The control plane aspe=
ct of self-healing is addressed by &quot;M. Behringer, et al., An Autonomic=
 Control Plane, draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane-03&quot;.=C2=
=A0 I believe these contributions are complementary to each other. I can tr=
y to address that in the contribution.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Please let me know if you agree with me. If not, I suggest to modify t=
he charter since without covering fault management aspect of the autonomic =
networks, the concept of autonomic network will be incomplete.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
--<br>
---<br>
Toerless Eckert, <a href=3D"mailto:eckert@cisco.com">eckert@cisco.com</a><b=
r>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Anima mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima" target=3D"_blank" r=
el=3D"noreferrer">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail_sig=
nature"><div>regards,</div><div>John</div></div>
</div>

--001a1141d9f086894d0522517eb3--


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From: John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com>
To: "Toy, Mehmet" <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>, Michael Behringer <mbehring@cisco.com>,  Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com>, Anima WG <anima@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] [ANIMA] Self-Managed Networks
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Hi,

sorry for the late reply, I've been buried in writing I-Ds.

In response to the original train of emails (not the latest from
Mehmet), Michael made a key point:

> The ACP is self-managing. It needs to do self-healing, and
> automatically adapt to new situations. But to me, this isn=E2=80=99t
> fault management or performance management as an
> operator understands it.

The last phrase ("as an operator understands it) is what is so
important. We need to differentiate between functions that
the Autonomic System provides and functions that are visible
to the operator.

When an autonomic system self-heals, why would the operator
need to know? This is comparable to routing doing its job and
changing the path. There is no reason that the operator has to
be alerted on every change in the system - there are already
WAY TOO MANY of these for the operator to handle.

IMHO, there are core functions provided by the ACP, and functions
that sit on top of the ACP and use these core functions. FM and PM
should sit on top of the ACP. Otherwise, the ACP doesn't scale,
because why is FM or PM more important than config mgmt.,
security, accounting, analytics, ...?

Finally, I don't see any difference between a) and b). You have an
ACP, and you have a set of Autonomic Functions that use the ACP.
(You probably have different layers of Autonomic Functions, where
a core set of Autonomic Functions are reused by other Autonomic
Functions to provide more powerful Autonomic Functions, but this
hasn't been discussed yet (I think)). The point is that you must start
with a small set of Autonomic Functions. Otherwise, the ACP becomes
a big, bloated, Ball of Mud and will end up useless.

regards,
John

--=20
regards,
John

--001a11437fe28586040522518c9c
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi,</div><div><br></div><div>sorry for the late reply=
, I&#39;ve been buried in writing I-Ds.</div><div><br></div><div>In respons=
e to the original train of emails (not the latest from </div><div>Mehmet), =
Michael made a key point:</div><div><br></div><div>&gt; The ACP is self-man=
aging. It needs to do self-healing, and</div><div>&gt; automatically adapt =
to new situations. But to me, this isn=E2=80=99t</div><div>&gt; fault manag=
ement or performance management as an </div><div>&gt; operator understands =
it.</div><div><br></div><div>The last phrase (&quot;as an operator understa=
nds it) is what is so</div><div>important.=C2=A0We need to differentiate be=
tween functions that</div><div>the=C2=A0Autonomic System provides and funct=
ions that are visible</div><div>to the operator.</div><div><br></div><div>W=
hen an autonomic system self-heals, why would the operator</div><div>need t=
o know? This is comparable to routing doing its job and</div><div>changing =
the path. There is no reason that the operator has to</div><div>be alerted =
on every change in the system - there are already</div><div>WAY TOO MANY of=
 these for the operator to handle.</div><div><br></div><div>IMHO, there are=
 core functions provided by the ACP, and functions</div><div>that sit on to=
p of the ACP and use these core functions. FM and PM</div><div>should sit o=
n top of the=C2=A0ACP. Otherwise, the ACP doesn&#39;t scale,</div><div>beca=
use why is FM or PM more important than config mgmt., </div><div>security, =
accounting, analytics, ...?</div><div><br></div><div>Finally, I don&#39;t s=
ee any difference between a) and b). You have an</div><div>ACP, and you hav=
e a set of Autonomic Functions that use the ACP.</div><div>(You probably ha=
ve different layers of Autonomic Functions, where</div><div>a core set of A=
utonomic Functions are reused by other Autonomic</div><div>Functions to pro=
vide more powerful Autonomic Functions, but this</div><div>hasn&#39;t been =
discussed yet (I think)). The point is that you must start</div><div>with a=
 small set of Autonomic Functions. Otherwise, the ACP becomes</div><div>a b=
ig, bloated, Ball of Mud and will end up useless.</div><div><br></div><div>=
regards,</div><div>John<br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br></div><div class=3D"gma=
il_signature"><div>regards,</div><div>John</div></div>
</div>

--001a11437fe28586040522518c9c--


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Subject: Re: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-addressing-02.txt
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Hi,

I might have mentioned this before, but the use of the phrase "zone ID" in
this context is confusing, because it already has a meaning in IPv6 addressing
(see RFC 4007 and RFC 6874). I think we need to find an alternative phrase.

Regards
   Brian


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From: "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" <eckert@cisco.com>
To: John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com>, "Toy, Mehmet" <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
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Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 01:02:48 +0000
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References: <9accdec6dd894df6afed38215b28b494@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <20151014231557.GA13294@cisco.com> <5fe9c36320aa4921b12eb0279463d2cb@VAADCEX37.cable.comcast.com>, <CAJwYUrGKdk1ywkGcUV7JO+ArTCGYMm=R3voNoOfGe5+0pmxPgg@mail.gmail.com>
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Cc: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\) \(dromasca@avaya.com\)" <dromasca@avaya.com>, "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" <mbehring@cisco.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
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--_000_db3pj962kuhreh9qlbsvy2kh1445129845742emailandroidcom_
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Of course, being easily in@tallable and uninstallable does not make the maj=
orities of android/ios apps useful, but if ios/android only had preinstalle=
d software and you had to upgrade the os to get other apps - those os would=
 not exist.

I dont understand how router vendor os survive without that concept, and if=
 at all possible id like to make  sure we do worry about aspects like these=
 to nmake the autonomic vision operationally successful.




Sent from my Samsung Captivate Glide on AT&T

John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi all,

Toerless wrote:

> 1) easily, ideally autonomous downloadable agent/application infra.
<jcs>
Frankly, I've never thought of that. However, I'm not sure that this is a
complete answer. Without specifications that define how the agents
and app infrastructure are built, how they communicate, etc., I don't
see how this works. So shouldn't the ANIMA WG build those specs?

Just because something can be downloaded and deployed doesn't
mean it is useful. Remember the disaster that was Active Networks,
which set AI in networking back two decades.
</jcs>

Mehmet wrote:

MT: What I propose is unlikely to be done completely just by autonomic agen=
ts or software, but can be partially done by autonomic agents.  This is the=
 key reason for these email exchanges.
<jcs>
You lost me. If it isn't software, then it must be hardware. I like ASICs
and FPGAs, but they can't do everything, especially in an adaptive
environment. Please elaborate more.
</jcs>

 ...

Mehmet wrote:
MT: In general I am not in favor of defining another control layer for this=
 purposes. Therefore, my proposed design  does not need and does not have a=
 protocol for communications.
<jcs>
Then how do different autonomic elements find each other and form
themselves into a group that can do something useful?
</jcs>
...

regards,
John

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Toy, Mehmet <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com<=
mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>> wrote:
Toerless,
Please see below.
Thanks
Mehmet

-----Original Message-----
From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:eckert@cisco.com<mailto:eckert@cisco.com>]
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:16 PM
To: Toy, Mehmet
Cc: anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>; brian.=
e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>; mbehring@cisco.c=
om<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>; Romascanu, Dan (Dan) (dromasca@avaya.com<mai=
lto:dromasca@avaya.com>)
Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks

Toy:

Unless you feel its more appropriate to keep this discussion in this closed=
 mailing list, i would suggest to have it on the anima mailing list.

First off: You've compressed really a lot of crucial arch design from your =
detailed first slidedeck into this a lot more pithy, yet comprehensive firs=
t draft. I think my main concern is how we can work on the SW engineering a=
spects of how to build it and build upon the anima infrastructure.

I think i did ask you some IETFs ago when you presented your slides, that i=
t would be good if we could focus on that aspect.

Eg: Could we add a section to the document outlining a summary of how this =
framework would leverage and benefit from the the currently planned anima i=
nfrastructure - why/ how to use it - so we know the requirements we have, e=
specially if those are any we would need to consider during recharter.
MT: As you can see from my previous email, I am not on board with current a=
rchitectural definitions.  Once we are sync on the definitions of architect=
ural components, I should make an attempt to address your concerns.

If you'd ask me, primarily as a contributor considering what would best hel=
p to make this happen - and move ANIMA forward, i think the key aspects are=
:

1) easily, ideally autonomous downloadable agent/application infra.

Eg: I don't see any way that either vendors or operators could realisticall=
y build this framework if these components are tied into the classical rout=
er OS software delivery model where it takes months to validate a sofftware=
 update and more months to deploy it. If this can be downloaded, as separat=
e apps then its so much easier to incrementally build/deploy it on a totall=
y different deployment process.

How exactly should this be done so operators like comcast will most likely =
start incrementally deploying this ?

Eg: I am sure autonomic agents will be the next re-charter item, the functi=
onality you describe for fault-management via such agents is great, and i c=
an see how that is just good work to refine, so i am mostly worred about th=
e sW-engineering and operational aspects of such autonomic agents.

MT: What I propose is unlikely to be done completely just by autonomic agen=
ts or software, but can be partially done by autonomic agents.  This is the=
 key reason for these email exchanges.

2) Clear APIs to existing router operations.

We would need to have an idea how these new components would talk to the re=
st of the router. This seems like an eay "oh, we can have those agents do 3=
0 year old router CLI locally, but we'd prefer Netconf/Yang with IETF stand=
ardized models, and we do need the following yang models for the first impo=
rtant FP operations". There is also talk about expanding into Thrift for hi=
gher performance data collection (beyond netconf, still with yang).

MT: Agree, but we are far from these steps.  We have to agree on the fundam=
entals.
3) connectivity between the agents.

This is primarily where at the lowest layer the ACP would come in and it wo=
uld be great to see argument if/how security, zero-touch build-up and indes=
tructibility are required and/or beneficial for these agents functions.  Yo=
u already mention the security aspect in your security section. Great.

Next layer is leveraging GRASP as a protocol for agent-to-agent communicati=
on. Is it feasible/beneficial to expect a common new message signaling laye=
r with GRAP ? If so, it would be great to describee why and how. Eg: what c=
ommunication patterns would your agents have, do the patterns GRASP support=
 suit your agents ?
MT: In general I am not in favor of defining another control layer for this=
 purposes. Therefore, my proposed design  does not need and does not have a=
 protocol for communications.

Your section 7 already has one specific layer of message communicartions, b=
ut it is directly tied to ethernet frame. I'd like to understand this bette=
r. I for once would think one would define for the message eleemnts a Yang/=
CBOR data model "failure management yang model". Then we look how to carry =
it. agent-to-agent, i would propose to actually run over GRASP (using CBOR =
representation of course), but to humans behind an NMS its more likely via =
netconf/yang from an agent into the NMS.
MT: Ethernet frame is just an example. We can collectively decide to have s=
omething else. The key point here is to have one message format for all FM =
related communications.

There may be other aspects, but if this makes sense to you, it would be gre=
at if we could get such a section added. Let me know if you need any help w=
ith that.
MT: Appreciate the offer. Again we need to sync up on the fundamentals firs=
t.

Cheers
    Toerless

On Mon, Oct 05, 2015 at 05:14:19PM +0000, Toy, Mehmet wrote:
> Dear All:
> I couldn't attend the Prague meeting, but luckily Dan was able to present=
 my slides on "Self-Managed Networks with Fault Management Hierarchy".   Th=
e feedback was to position the work in the ANIMA WG scope and framework.
>
> ANIMA charter in "M. Behringer, et. al., A Reference Model for Autonomic =
Networking
> draft-behringer-anima-reference-model-03" refers to "self-healing".  RFC7=
575,  "M. Behringer, et al.,   Autonomic Networking: Definitions and Design=
 Goals",  refers to "self-management". However, both documents do not  arti=
culate fault management aspect of the self-management.  It is possible to i=
nterpret the fault management aspect of autonomic networks as part of "self=
-healing" and therefore as part of the ANIMA charter.  In that case, the "A=
rchitectural Framework for Self-Managed Networks with Fault Management Hier=
archy, draft-mtoy-anima-self-faultmang-framework-00.txt" contribution can t=
arget to fill that gap.  The control plane aspect of self-healing is addres=
sed by "M. Behringer, et al., An Autonomic Control Plane, draft-behringer-a=
nima-autonomic-control-plane-03".  I believe these contributions are comple=
mentary to each other. I can try to address that in the contribution.
>
> Please let me know if you agree with me. If not, I suggest to modify the =
charter since without covering fault management aspect of the autonomic net=
works, the concept of autonomic network will be incomplete.
>
> Regards,
> Mehmet
>
>

--
---
Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com<mailto:eckert@cisco.com>

_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org<mailto:Anima@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima



--
regards,
John

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<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"=
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<meta content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8">
</head>
<body>
<div>Of course, being easily in@tallable and uninstallable does not make th=
e majorities of android/ios apps useful, but if ios/android only had preins=
talled software and you had to upgrade the os to get other apps - those os =
would not exist.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I dont understand how router vendor os survive without that concept, a=
nd if at all possible id like to make &nbsp;sure we do worry about aspects =
like these to nmake the autonomic vision operationally successful.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"font-size:75%; color:#575757">Sent from my Samsung Captivate =
Glide on AT&amp;T</div>
</div>
<br>
John Strassner &lt;strazpdj@gmail.com&gt; wrote:<br>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>Hi all,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Toerless wrote:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&gt; 1) easily, ideally autonomous downloadable agent/application infr=
a.<br>
</div>
<div>&lt;jcs&gt;</div>
<div>Frankly, I've never thought of that. However, I'm not sure that this i=
s a</div>
<div>complete answer.&nbsp;Without specifications that define how the agent=
s</div>
<div>and app infrastructure are built, how they communicate, etc., I don't<=
/div>
<div>see how this works. So shouldn't the ANIMA WG build those specs?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Just because something can be downloaded and deployed doesn't </div>
<div>mean it&nbsp;is useful. Remember the disaster that was Active Networks=
,</div>
<div>which set AI in networking back two decades.</div>
<div>&lt;/jcs&gt;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Mehmet wrote:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>MT: What I propose is unlikely to be done completely just by autonomic=
 agents or software, but can be partially done by autonomic agents.&nbsp; T=
his is the key reason for these email exchanges.</div>
<div>&lt;jcs&gt;</div>
<div>You lost me.&nbsp;If it isn't software, then it must be hardware. I li=
ke ASICs</div>
<div>and FPGAs, but they can't do everything, especially in an adaptive</di=
v>
<div>environment. Please elaborate more.</div>
<div>&lt;/jcs&gt;<br>
<br>
&nbsp;...</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Mehmet wrote:</div>
<div>MT: In general I am not in favor of defining another control layer for=
 this purposes. Therefore, my proposed design&nbsp; does not need and does =
not have a protocol for communications.</div>
<div>&lt;jcs&gt;</div>
<div>Then how do different autonomic elements find each other and form</div=
>
<div>themselves into a group that can do something useful?</div>
<div>&lt;/jcs&gt;<br>
</div>
<div>...<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>regards,</div>
<div>John<br>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Toy, Mehmet <sp=
an dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com" target=3D"_blank">Mehme=
t_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:1=
px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
Toerless,<br>
Please see below.<br>
Thanks<br>
Mehmet<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:eckert@cisco.com">eckert@ci=
sco.com</a>]<br>
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:16 PM<br>
To: Toy, Mehmet<br>
Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.=
org</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<=
/a>; <a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">
mbehring@cisco.com</a>; Romascanu, Dan (Dan) (<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@av=
aya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a>)<br>
Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks<br>
<br>
Toy:<br>
<br>
Unless you feel its more appropriate to keep this discussion in this closed=
 mailing list, i would suggest to have it on the anima mailing list.<br>
<br>
First off: You've compressed really a lot of crucial arch design from your =
detailed first slidedeck into this a lot more pithy, yet comprehensive firs=
t draft. I think my main concern is how we can work on the SW engineering a=
spects of how to build it and build
 upon the anima infrastructure.<br>
<br>
I think i did ask you some IETFs ago when you presented your slides, that i=
t would be good if we could focus on that aspect.<br>
<br>
Eg: Could we add a section to the document outlining a summary of how this =
framework would leverage and benefit from the the currently planned anima i=
nfrastructure - why/ how to use it - so we know the requirements we have, e=
specially if those are any we would
 need to consider during recharter.<br>
MT: As you can see from my previous email, I am not on board with current a=
rchitectural definitions.&nbsp; Once we are sync on the definitions of arch=
itectural components, I should make an attempt to address your concerns.<br=
>
<br>
If you'd ask me, primarily as a contributor considering what would best hel=
p to make this happen - and move ANIMA forward, i think the key aspects are=
:<br>
<br>
1) easily, ideally autonomous downloadable agent/application infra.<br>
<br>
Eg: I don't see any way that either vendors or operators could realisticall=
y build this framework if these components are tied into the classical rout=
er OS software delivery model where it takes months to validate a sofftware=
 update and more months to deploy
 it. If this can be downloaded, as separate apps then its so much easier to=
 incrementally build/deploy it on a totally different deployment process.<b=
r>
<br>
How exactly should this be done so operators like comcast will most likely =
start incrementally deploying this ?<br>
<br>
Eg: I am sure autonomic agents will be the next re-charter item, the functi=
onality you describe for fault-management via such agents is great, and i c=
an see how that is just good work to refine, so i am mostly worred about th=
e sW-engineering and operational
 aspects of such autonomic agents.<br>
<br>
MT: What I propose is unlikely to be done completely just by autonomic agen=
ts or software, but can be partially done by autonomic agents.&nbsp; This i=
s the key reason for these email exchanges.<br>
<br>
2) Clear APIs to existing router operations.<br>
<br>
We would need to have an idea how these new components would talk to the re=
st of the router. This seems like an eay &quot;oh, we can have those agents=
 do 30 year old router CLI locally, but we'd prefer Netconf/Yang with IETF =
standardized models, and we do need the
 following yang models for the first important FP operations&quot;. There i=
s also talk about expanding into Thrift for higher performance data collect=
ion (beyond netconf, still with yang).<br>
<br>
MT: Agree, but we are far from these steps.&nbsp; We have to agree on the f=
undamentals.<br>
3) connectivity between the agents.<br>
<br>
This is primarily where at the lowest layer the ACP would come in and it wo=
uld be great to see argument if/how security, zero-touch build-up and indes=
tructibility are required and/or beneficial for these agents functions.&nbs=
p; You already mention the security aspect
 in your security section. Great.<br>
<br>
Next layer is leveraging GRASP as a protocol for agent-to-agent communicati=
on. Is it feasible/beneficial to expect a common new message signaling laye=
r with GRAP ? If so, it would be great to describee why and how. Eg: what c=
ommunication patterns would your
 agents have, do the patterns GRASP support suit your agents ?<br>
MT: In general I am not in favor of defining another control layer for this=
 purposes. Therefore, my proposed design&nbsp; does not need and does not h=
ave a protocol for communications.<br>
<br>
Your section 7 already has one specific layer of message communicartions, b=
ut it is directly tied to ethernet frame. I'd like to understand this bette=
r. I for once would think one would define for the message eleemnts a Yang/=
CBOR data model &quot;failure management
 yang model&quot;. Then we look how to carry it. agent-to-agent, i would pr=
opose to actually run over GRASP (using CBOR representation of course), but=
 to humans behind an NMS its more likely via netconf/yang from an agent int=
o the NMS.<br>
MT: Ethernet frame is just an example. We can collectively decide to have s=
omething else. The key point here is to have one message format for all FM =
related communications.<br>
<br>
There may be other aspects, but if this makes sense to you, it would be gre=
at if we could get such a section added. Let me know if you need any help w=
ith that.<br>
MT: Appreciate the offer. Again we need to sync up on the fundamentals firs=
t.<br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; Toerless<br>
<br>
On Mon, Oct 05, 2015 at 05:14:19PM &#43;0000, Toy, Mehmet wrote:<br>
&gt; Dear All:<br>
&gt; I couldn't attend the Prague meeting, but luckily Dan was able to pres=
ent my slides on &quot;Self-Managed Networks with Fault Management Hierarch=
y&quot;.&nbsp; &nbsp;The feedback was to position the work in the ANIMA WG =
scope and framework.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; ANIMA charter in &quot;M. Behringer, et. al., A Reference Model for Au=
tonomic Networking<br>
&gt; draft-behringer-anima-reference-model-03&quot; refers to &quot;self-he=
aling&quot;.&nbsp; RFC7575,&nbsp; &quot;M. Behringer, et al.,&nbsp; &nbsp;A=
utonomic Networking: Definitions and Design Goals&quot;,&nbsp; refers to &q=
uot;self-management&quot;. However, both documents do not&nbsp; articulate =
fault management aspect of
 the self-management.&nbsp; It is possible to interpret the fault managemen=
t aspect of autonomic networks as part of &quot;self-healing&quot; and ther=
efore as part of the ANIMA charter.&nbsp; In that case, the &quot;Architect=
ural Framework for Self-Managed Networks with Fault Management
 Hierarchy, draft-mtoy-anima-self-faultmang-framework-00.txt&quot; contribu=
tion can target to fill that gap.&nbsp; The control plane aspect of self-he=
aling is addressed by &quot;M. Behringer, et al., An Autonomic Control Plan=
e, draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane-03&quot;.&nbsp;
 I believe these contributions are complementary to each other. I can try t=
o address that in the contribution.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Please let me know if you agree with me. If not, I suggest to modify t=
he charter since without covering fault management aspect of the autonomic =
networks, the concept of autonomic network will be incomplete.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
--<br>
---<br>
Toerless Eckert, <a href=3D"mailto:eckert@cisco.com">eckert@cisco.com</a><b=
r>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Anima mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima" target=3D"_blank" r=
el=3D"noreferrer">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear=3D"all">
<br>
-- <br>
<div class=3D"gmail_signature">
<div>regards,</div>
<div>John</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From nobody Sat Oct 17 18:18:05 2015
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To: "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" <eckert@cisco.com>, John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com>, "Toy, Mehmet" <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>
References: <9accdec6dd894df6afed38215b28b494@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <20151014231557.GA13294@cisco.com> <5fe9c36320aa4921b12eb0279463d2cb@VAADCEX37.cable.comcast.com> <CAJwYUrGKdk1ywkGcUV7JO+ArTCGYMm=R3voNoOfGe5+0pmxPgg@mail.gmail.com> <db3pj962kuhreh9qlbsvy2kh.1445129845742@email.android.com>
From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2015 21:17:59 -0400
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Cc: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\) \(dromasca@avaya.com\)" <dromasca@avaya.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" <mbehring@cisco.com>, "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
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I see two ways to looking at this.
One way, which is I think what Toerless is suggesting, is that being 
able to dynamically install ASAs into devices dramatically increases the 
power of the autonomic data plane.

The converse is that if Anima requires replacement of the OS on all 
devices in the environment, then I confidently predict failure of our 
effort.

Yours,
Joel

On 10/17/15 9:02 PM, Toerless Eckert (eckert) wrote:
> Of course, being easily in@tallable and uninstallable does not make the
> majorities of android/ios apps useful, but if ios/android only had
> preinstalled software and you had to upgrade the os to get other apps -
> those os would not exist.
>
> I dont understand how router vendor os survive without that concept, and
> if at all possible id like to make  sure we do worry about aspects like
> these to nmake the autonomic vision operationally successful.
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my Samsung Captivate Glide on AT&T
>
> John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Toerless wrote:
>
>  > 1) easily, ideally autonomous downloadable agent/application infra.
> <jcs>
> Frankly, I've never thought of that. However, I'm not sure that this is a
> complete answer. Without specifications that define how the agents
> and app infrastructure are built, how they communicate, etc., I don't
> see how this works. So shouldn't the ANIMA WG build those specs?
>
> Just because something can be downloaded and deployed doesn't
> mean it is useful. Remember the disaster that was Active Networks,
> which set AI in networking back two decades.
> </jcs>
>
> Mehmet wrote:
>
> MT: What I propose is unlikely to be done completely just by autonomic
> agents or software, but can be partially done by autonomic agents.  This
> is the key reason for these email exchanges.
> <jcs>
> You lost me. If it isn't software, then it must be hardware. I like ASICs
> and FPGAs, but they can't do everything, especially in an adaptive
> environment. Please elaborate more.
> </jcs>
>
>   ...
>
> Mehmet wrote:
> MT: In general I am not in favor of defining another control layer for
> this purposes. Therefore, my proposed design  does not need and does not
> have a protocol for communications.
> <jcs>
> Then how do different autonomic elements find each other and form
> themselves into a group that can do something useful?
> </jcs>
> ...
>
> regards,
> John
>
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Toy, Mehmet
> <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com <mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>> wrote:
>
>     Toerless,
>     Please see below.
>     Thanks
>     Mehmet
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>     From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:eckert@cisco.com
>     <mailto:eckert@cisco.com>]
>     Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:16 PM
>     To: Toy, Mehmet
>     Cc: anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org
>     <mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>; brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com
>     <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>; mbehring@cisco.com
>     <mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>; Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
>     (dromasca@avaya.com <mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>)
>     Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks
>
>     Toy:
>
>     Unless you feel its more appropriate to keep this discussion in this
>     closed mailing list, i would suggest to have it on the anima mailing
>     list.
>
>     First off: You've compressed really a lot of crucial arch design
>     from your detailed first slidedeck into this a lot more pithy, yet
>     comprehensive first draft. I think my main concern is how we can
>     work on the SW engineering aspects of how to build it and build upon
>     the anima infrastructure.
>
>     I think i did ask you some IETFs ago when you presented your slides,
>     that it would be good if we could focus on that aspect.
>
>     Eg: Could we add a section to the document outlining a summary of
>     how this framework would leverage and benefit from the the currently
>     planned anima infrastructure - why/ how to use it - so we know the
>     requirements we have, especially if those are any we would need to
>     consider during recharter.
>     MT: As you can see from my previous email, I am not on board with
>     current architectural definitions.  Once we are sync on the
>     definitions of architectural components, I should make an attempt to
>     address your concerns.
>
>     If you'd ask me, primarily as a contributor considering what would
>     best help to make this happen - and move ANIMA forward, i think the
>     key aspects are:
>
>     1) easily, ideally autonomous downloadable agent/application infra.
>
>     Eg: I don't see any way that either vendors or operators could
>     realistically build this framework if these components are tied into
>     the classical router OS software delivery model where it takes
>     months to validate a sofftware update and more months to deploy it.
>     If this can be downloaded, as separate apps then its so much easier
>     to incrementally build/deploy it on a totally different deployment
>     process.
>
>     How exactly should this be done so operators like comcast will most
>     likely start incrementally deploying this ?
>
>     Eg: I am sure autonomic agents will be the next re-charter item, the
>     functionality you describe for fault-management via such agents is
>     great, and i can see how that is just good work to refine, so i am
>     mostly worred about the sW-engineering and operational aspects of
>     such autonomic agents.
>
>     MT: What I propose is unlikely to be done completely just by
>     autonomic agents or software, but can be partially done by autonomic
>     agents.  This is the key reason for these email exchanges.
>
>     2) Clear APIs to existing router operations.
>
>     We would need to have an idea how these new components would talk to
>     the rest of the router. This seems like an eay "oh, we can have
>     those agents do 30 year old router CLI locally, but we'd prefer
>     Netconf/Yang with IETF standardized models, and we do need the
>     following yang models for the first important FP operations". There
>     is also talk about expanding into Thrift for higher performance data
>     collection (beyond netconf, still with yang).
>
>     MT: Agree, but we are far from these steps.  We have to agree on the
>     fundamentals.
>     3) connectivity between the agents.
>
>     This is primarily where at the lowest layer the ACP would come in
>     and it would be great to see argument if/how security, zero-touch
>     build-up and indestructibility are required and/or beneficial for
>     these agents functions.  You already mention the security aspect in
>     your security section. Great.
>
>     Next layer is leveraging GRASP as a protocol for agent-to-agent
>     communication. Is it feasible/beneficial to expect a common new
>     message signaling layer with GRAP ? If so, it would be great to
>     describee why and how. Eg: what communication patterns would your
>     agents have, do the patterns GRASP support suit your agents ?
>     MT: In general I am not in favor of defining another control layer
>     for this purposes. Therefore, my proposed design  does not need and
>     does not have a protocol for communications.
>
>     Your section 7 already has one specific layer of message
>     communicartions, but it is directly tied to ethernet frame. I'd like
>     to understand this better. I for once would think one would define
>     for the message eleemnts a Yang/CBOR data model "failure management
>     yang model". Then we look how to carry it. agent-to-agent, i would
>     propose to actually run over GRASP (using CBOR representation of
>     course), but to humans behind an NMS its more likely via
>     netconf/yang from an agent into the NMS.
>     MT: Ethernet frame is just an example. We can collectively decide to
>     have something else. The key point here is to have one message
>     format for all FM related communications.
>
>     There may be other aspects, but if this makes sense to you, it would
>     be great if we could get such a section added. Let me know if you
>     need any help with that.
>     MT: Appreciate the offer. Again we need to sync up on the
>     fundamentals first.
>
>     Cheers
>          Toerless
>
>     On Mon, Oct 05, 2015 at 05:14:19PM +0000, Toy, Mehmet wrote:
>      > Dear All:
>      > I couldn't attend the Prague meeting, but luckily Dan was able to
>     present my slides on "Self-Managed Networks with Fault Management
>     Hierarchy".   The feedback was to position the work in the ANIMA WG
>     scope and framework.
>      >
>      > ANIMA charter in "M. Behringer, et. al., A Reference Model for
>     Autonomic Networking
>      > draft-behringer-anima-reference-model-03" refers to
>     "self-healing".  RFC7575,  "M. Behringer, et al.,   Autonomic
>     Networking: Definitions and Design Goals",  refers to
>     "self-management". However, both documents do not  articulate fault
>     management aspect of the self-management.  It is possible to
>     interpret the fault management aspect of autonomic networks as part
>     of "self-healing" and therefore as part of the ANIMA charter.  In
>     that case, the "Architectural Framework for Self-Managed Networks
>     with Fault Management Hierarchy,
>     draft-mtoy-anima-self-faultmang-framework-00.txt" contribution can
>     target to fill that gap.  The control plane aspect of self-healing
>     is addressed by "M. Behringer, et al., An Autonomic Control Plane,
>     draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane-03". I believe these
>     contributions are complementary to each other. I can try to address
>     that in the contribution.
>      >
>      > Please let me know if you agree with me. If not, I suggest to
>     modify the charter since without covering fault management aspect of
>     the autonomic networks, the concept of autonomic network will be
>     incomplete.
>      >
>      > Regards,
>      > Mehmet
>      >
>      >
>
>     --
>     ---
>     Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com <mailto:eckert@cisco.com>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Anima mailing list
>     Anima@ietf.org <mailto:Anima@ietf.org>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>
>
>
>
> --
> regards,
> John
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>


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References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B927BBB558B@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <7145ab65268b4fb3b279e2ce9da1fdaa@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <cbc6f29eda114b848f3dac35609b2da8@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <9c8b64c962c443f19f6fd784cb9927a7@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <7512f6b600904c49838fcf729e3000a5@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <334e22acb30e487eb7f5a2d41fb54499@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <ff7789800a574fcb901e096a0a11f5bb@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <dd5a46abd24c49d2a9acd31a608ef7e8@VAADCEX37.cable.comcast.com> <14fdc79570b54d0e9562382c5d53a3ef@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <561EC845.9020505@gmail.com> <c1e45907707f42d3ae1e9beb0647a760@VAADCEX37.cable.comcast.com> <03347fe65bce48e9ba28827f5c4c0624@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <c44ededa670e43588987bd30b2f68e88@VAADCEX37.cable.comcast.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
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Hi,

> If we have two or more ACPs, what could go wrong?

An ACP is just like a domain. So, of course you will have multiple
ACPs. The open question is whether we want simple inter-domain
communication and/or federated domains. FOCALE did both.

> Furthermore, I suggest you to think about ETSI NFV model,
> "infrastructure" and "VNF" division of networks.

Yuck (that was the technical answer); see below

> What is wrong in using that kind of model here which is a
> reasonable breakdown

I could go on for 20 pages, since I participed in SWA, MANO, and
INF in Phase 1 and have looked at IFA and EVE in phase 2. A
small summary:

   - VNFs are not ASAs; please explain why you think they are
   - The reference points defined in NFV are vague at best;
      certainly one could not write software against them
   - The APIs are ill-formed
   - The model is horrible. There isn't even a decent set of model
     requirements (e.g., how on earth could someone say you have
     an information model (thankfully changed after 6 months of
     arguing to an "information element") that does not even define
     a data type for the entity?
   - There is no relation to any business concepts
   - There is no policy element

> instead of sticking with ACP  that is becoming very difficult to define?

I fail to see what is so confusing about the ACP definition, sorry.

regards,
John

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 8:36 PM, Toy, Mehmet <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>
wrote:

> Michael,
>
> Before I pick each of your statement and express my thoughts, I would lik=
e
> to ask more questions by picking your  statement " There is *one* ACP,
> there are *many* autonomic functions on top.".   Assume we  start buildin=
g
> on this to see how far we can go, whether this holds for all cases or not=
,
> I don't know.
>
> If we have two or more ACPs, what could go wrong? What is it that you are
> trying to do here? What is the purpose behind this model?
>
> Furthermore, I suggest you to think about ETSI NFV model, "infrastructure=
"
> and "VNF" division of networks.  What is wrong in using that kind of mode=
l
> here which is a reasonable breakdown, instead of sticking with ACP  that =
is
> becoming very difficult to define?
>
> Thanks
> Mehmet
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com]
> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 4:57 AM
> To: Toy, Mehmet; Brian E Carpenter; anima@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>
> Toy, thanks for raising those questions. Obviously, we're not doing a goo=
d
> job yet in describing what the ACP is, and that needs to be fixed. And
> obviously, we all need the same view to progress further. So this is a ve=
ry
> important discussion, and I really welcome it.
>
> Before formalising better text, let me see whether we get agreement on th=
e
> fundamental idea.
>
> In my head, there are two layers: The ACP, and on top of that the
> Autonomic Functions:
>
> * The ACP is the "tool kit". It comprises various "mechanics", such as
> negotiation, synchronisation, discovery of various sorts, messaging, etc.
> Those are all based on a common addressing and naming concept.
>
> * Autonomic Functions use that tool kit to do something clever. In other
> words, the true autonomic "intelligence" sits on that level.
>
> There is *one* ACP, there are *many* autonomic functions on top.
>
> One way to decide to which layer something belongs is to ask: "is this (1=
)
> a generic functionality which many functions require, or is this (2) one
> specific function?". If the answer is (1), it belongs into the ACP, if (2=
)
> it belongs into an autonomic function.
>
> So, in this light, my understanding (!) of fault management is that this
> is an autonomic function, and would use common blocks of the underlying
> ACP. Conversely, it would not offer services to other autonomic functions
> on top. This is my way of thinking when I write "this is an autonomic
> function".  And I'm not 100% certain I understand what you're suggesting,
> so please chime in here! (And I haven't read your draft fully yet, sorry)
>
> Look at
> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-01.txt
> This draft describes "intelligence". In that case, a way to automatically
> manage address space. Sections 2.2 and 2.3 explain which parameters and
> information exchanges such a function would require. Sheng wrote this
> document to explain how an autonomic function would use a common ACP.
>
> Probably we should take some off-line time in Yokohama to discuss this in
> a small team?
>
> Michael
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Toy, Mehmet
> > Sent: 15 October 2015 04:26
> > To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>; Michael Behringer
> > (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com>; anima@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
> >
> > Michael and Brian,
> > Per Toerless suggestion, I am including ANIMA group into the discussion=
.
> >
> > I re-read the "A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking" document
> > and I am not clear about the definitions.
> >
> > a)  In the "A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking", ACP is
> > defined as "The Autonomic Control Plane is the summary of all
> > interactions of the Autonomic Networking Infrastructure with other node=
s
> and services.".
> >
> > b) Brian, you write as " The ACP is common infrastructure for all
> > autonomic functions.(The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of course.)
> > The signaling protocol is also common infrastructure."
> >
> > Question: What is ACP? a or b or combination?
> >
> > c) Section 4 in the reference model document , "The Autonomic
> > Networking Infrastructure provides a layer of common  functionality
> > across an Autonomic Network.  It comprises "must implement" functions
> > and services, as well as extensions."
> > Question: What are the "must implement" functionalities?  How do you
> > define "must implement" functionalities?
> >
> > Thanks
> > Mehmet
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM
> > To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); Toy, Mehmet
> > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
> > chairs@tools.ietf.org'
> > Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks
> >
> > I agree with Michael. The ACP is common infrastructure for all
> > autonomic functions.
> > (The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of course.) The signaling
> > protocol is also common infrastructure.
> >
> >    Brian
> > On 15/10/2015 05:43, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
> > > I would argue they are part of an autonomic function, which runs on
> > > top of
> > the ACP.
> > > There are really two different pieces here, and this is I think the
> > > confusion
> > here:
> > >
> > > -          The ACP is self-managing. It needs to do self-healing, and
> > automatically adapt to new situations. But to me, this isn=E2=80=99t fa=
ult
> > management or performance management as an operator understands it.
> > >
> > > -          The network has FM and PM function. Those could be (and
> should
> > be, imo) autonomic functions. Those run on top of the ACP.
> > > Bottom line: I=E2=80=99d like to keep the ACP itself as minimalistic =
and
> > > simple as we
> > possibly can. Functions like FM / PM belong into an autonomic function,
> IMO.
> > > What do you think?
> > > Michael
> > > From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
> > > Sent: 14 October 2015 18:30
> > > To: Michael Behringer (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com>
> > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com' <dromasca@avaya.com>;
> > 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'
> > > <jiangsheng@huawei.com>; 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org'
> > > <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
> > > <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
> > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Michael,
> > > Instead of answering the question as Yes or No, let me give examples
> > > to
> > see what makes sense.
> > > Let=E2=80=99s say in a data path, a router port is failed.  The route=
r
> > > generates an AIS
> > (Alarm Indication Signal) and the receiving  end generates RDI (remote
> > Defect Indicator).  Both messages are generated by the hardware, not by=
 a
> > software or ACP.   As a result of this failure,  there would be packet
> loss. The
> > hardware counts these losses, an ACP does not.
> > > For the FM and PM functions above, can we say they are part of an ACP=
?
> > > Thanks
> > > Mehmet
> > > From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:34 AM
> > > To: Toy, Mehmet
> > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
> > chairs@tools.ietf.org'; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
> > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Hi Toy,
> > > To understand better: To me, fault management *uses* the functions
> > > of
> > the AN infrastructure. It uses the ACP to communicate, maybe GRASP for
> > some signalling, might be influenced by Intent, etc. Right?  So to me,
> > this is a logical component of an autonomic network that sits on top
> > of the AN infrastructure.
> > > Do we agree?
> > > Michael
> > >
> > > From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
> > > Sent: 13 October 2015 23:46
> > > To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
> > > <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
> > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'
> > > <dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>;
> > > 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'
> > > <jiangsheng@huawei.com<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>>;
> > > 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org'
> > > <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>;
> > > 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
> > > <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>
> > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Michael,
> > > Appreciate the reply.
> > > FM is part of data plane and control plane (i.e. ANI in your diagram)=
.
> > > My plan is to add a short paragraph for now either to section 2 to
> > > expand
> > the description  of ANI or to section 4 to add a sub-section for Fault
> > Management.
> > >
> > > It is also possible too add a Performance Management section to
> > > describe
> > what types of measurements and where and how are used.  Although there
> > is a control feedback related measurement in the document, I don=E2=80=
=99t
> > know if it is adequate.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Mehmet
> > > From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 12:27 PM
> > > To: Toy, Mehmet
> > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
> > chairs@tools.ietf.org'; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
> > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Sorry for the delay, it=E2=80=99s very busy at the moment here.
> > > To me, fault management refers generally to faults on the data
> > > plane, ie for
> > user traffic. I see that happening at some point as an autonomic
> > function (or several, for different aspects). Would you agree? Or do
> > you see that as a function inside the AN infrastructure?
> > > So my feeling is that function would reside on top of the
> > > infrastructure that
> > we=E2=80=99re currently defining. So, please have a look whether your t=
houghts
> > can be described as an autonomic function. I think they probably can.
> > > Then I suggest we do the same that we=E2=80=99re planning to do with =
the NMS
> > section, the model discussion, etc: Have a short paragraph describe
> > the overall topic briefly, and point to an external doc for now, i.e.,
> > probably your draft.
> > > If you agree, can you suggest where in the reference model you would
> > > add
> > a short paragraph about fault management, and I suppose we=E2=80=99d po=
int to
> > your draft, right?
> > > Michael
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
> > > Sent: 13 October 2015 03:53
> > > To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
> > > <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
> > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'
> > > <dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>;
> > > 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'
> > > <jiangsheng@huawei.com<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>>;
> > > 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org'
> > > <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>;
> > > 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
> > > <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>
> > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Mike,
> > > I am waiting for your response.
> > > Thanks
> > > Mehmet
> > >
> > > From: Toy, Mehmet
> > > Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 8:13 PM
> > > To: 'mbehring@cisco.com'
> > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
> > chairs@tools.ietf.org'; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
> > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Mike,
> > > I can send you some text to include in section 2 and 4 of  =E2=80=9CA
> > > Reference
> > Model for Autonomic Networking,   draft-behringer-anima-reference-
> > model-03=E2=80=9D,  per Sheng=E2=80=99s suggestion.
> > > Should I just do that?
> > > Thanks
> > > Mehmet
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Toy, Mehmet
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 7:53 AM
> > > To: 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org';
> > 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'; 'mbehring@cisco.com'
> > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'
> > > Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Sheng,
> > > Appreciate a quick response.
> > > I will work on your suggestion.
> > > Mehmet
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 06:08 AM Eastern Standard Time
> > > To: Toy, Mehmet;
> > > anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>
> > > <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>;
> > > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
> > > <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>;
> > > mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>
> > > <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
> > > Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
> > > (dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>)
> > > <dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>
> > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Hi, Toy,
> > > First of all, for my understanding, your work is in the scope of the
> > > WG
> > charter. However, we do not have work item or milestone for it. It
> > looks like an upper-layer autonomic service agent for me. In our plan,
> > autonomic service agents are mainly for the next period, which is
> > after re-charter (this is the same with your suggestion of modifying
> > the charter, but it cannot happen until we deliver the current
> > milestones). For now, the best may be try to add some description,
> > maybe mainly abstracted functionality, into the reference model documen=
t.
> > > Best regards,
> > > Sheng
> > >
> > > From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 1:14 AM
> > > To: anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>;
> > > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>;
> > > mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>
> > > Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
> > > (dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>)
> > > Subject: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Dear All:
> > > I couldn=E2=80=99t attend the Prague meeting, but luckily Dan was abl=
e to
> > > present
> > my slides on =E2=80=9CSelf-Managed Networks with Fault Management Hiera=
rchy=E2=80=9D.
> > The feedback was to position the work in the ANIMA WG scope and
> > framework.
> > >
> > > ANIMA charter in =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et. al., A Reference Model fo=
r
> > > Autonomic
> > Networking
> > > draft-behringer-anima-reference-model-03=E2=80=9D refers to =E2=80=9C=
self-healing=E2=80=9D.
> > RFC7575,  =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et al.,   Autonomic Networking: Defini=
tions and
> > Design Goals=E2=80=9D,  refers to =E2=80=9Cself-management=E2=80=9D. Ho=
wever, both documents
> > do not  articulate fault management aspect of the self-management.  It
> > is possible to interpret the fault management aspect of autonomic
> > networks as part of =E2=80=9Cself-healing=E2=80=9D and therefore as par=
t of the ANIMA
> > charter.  In that case, the =E2=80=9CArchitectural Framework for Self-M=
anaged
> > Networks with Fault Management Hierarchy,
> > draft-mtoy-anima-self-faultmang-framework-
> > 00.txt=E2=80=9D contribution can target to fill that gap.  The control =
plane
> > aspect of self-healing is addressed by =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et al., A=
n
> > Autonomic Control Plane,
> > draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane-03=E2=80=9D.  I believe t=
hese
> > contributions are complementary to each other. I can try to address tha=
t
> in the contribution.
> > >
> > > Please let me know if you agree with me. If not, I suggest to modify
> > > the
> > charter since without covering fault management aspect of the
> > autonomic networks, the concept of autonomic network will be incomplete=
.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Mehmet
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Anima mailing list
> > Anima@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>



--=20
regards,
John

--001a1143e074d10f020522577d98
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi,</div><div><br></div><div>&gt; If we have two or m=
ore ACPs, what could go wrong?</div><div><br></div><div>An ACP is just like=
 a domain. So, of course you will have multiple</div><div>ACPs.=C2=A0The op=
en question is whether we want simple inter-domain</div><div>communication =
and/or federated domains. FOCALE did both.</div><div><br>&gt;=C2=A0Furtherm=
ore, I suggest you to think about ETSI NFV model,</div><div>&gt; &quot;infr=
astructure&quot; and &quot;VNF&quot; division of networks.</div><div><br></=
div><div>Yuck (that was the technical answer); see below</div><div><br></di=
v><div>&gt; What is wrong in using that kind of model here which is a</div>=
<div>&gt;=C2=A0reasonable=C2=A0breakdown</div><div><br></div><div>I could g=
o on for 20 pages, since I participed in SWA, MANO, and</div><div>INF in Ph=
ase 1 and have looked at IFA and EVE in phase 2. A</div><div>small summary:=
</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0=C2=A0 - VNFs are not ASAs; please explain =
why you think they are</div><div>=C2=A0=C2=A0 - The reference points define=
d in NFV are vague at best;</div><div>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 certai=
nly one could not write software against them</div><div>=C2=A0=C2=A0 - The =
APIs are ill-formed</div><div>=C2=A0=C2=A0 - The model is horrible. There i=
sn&#39;t even a decent set of model</div><div>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 requ=
irements (e.g., how on earth could someone say you have</div><div>=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 an information model (thankfully changed after 6 months of<=
/div><div>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 arguing to an &quot;information element&=
quot;) that does not even define</div><div>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a data =
type for the entity?</div><div>=C2=A0=C2=A0 - There is no relation to any b=
usiness concepts</div><div>=C2=A0=C2=A0 - There is no policy element</div><=
div><br></div><div>&gt; instead of sticking with ACP=C2=A0 that is becoming=
 very difficult to define?</div><div><br></div><div>I fail to see what is s=
o confusing about the ACP definition, sorry.</div><div><br></div><div>regar=
ds,</div><div>John<br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 8:36 PM, Toy, Mehmet <span dir=3D"=
ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com" target=3D"_blank">=
Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
left:1ex">Michael,<br>
<br>
Before I pick each of your statement and express my thoughts, I would like =
to ask more questions by picking your=C2=A0 statement &quot; There is *one*=
 ACP, there are *many* autonomic functions on top.&quot;.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Assum=
e we=C2=A0 start building on this to see how far we can go, whether this ho=
lds for all cases or not, I don&#39;t know.<br>
<br>
If we have two or more ACPs, what could go wrong? What is it that you are t=
rying to do here? What is the purpose behind this model?<br>
<br>
Furthermore, I suggest you to think about ETSI NFV model, &quot;infrastruct=
ure&quot; and &quot;VNF&quot; division of networks.=C2=A0 What is wrong in =
using that kind of model here which is a reasonable breakdown, instead of s=
ticking with ACP=C2=A0 that is becoming very difficult to define?<br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
Mehmet<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco=
.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a>]<br>
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 4:57 AM<br>
To: Toy, Mehmet; Brian E Carpenter; <a href=3D"mailto:anima@ietf.org">anima=
@ietf.org</a><br>
Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
<br>
Toy, thanks for raising those questions. Obviously, we&#39;re not doing a g=
ood job yet in describing what the ACP is, and that needs to be fixed. And =
obviously, we all need the same view to progress further. So this is a very=
 important discussion, and I really welcome it.<br>
<br>
Before formalising better text, let me see whether we get agreement on the =
fundamental idea.<br>
<br>
In my head, there are two layers: The ACP, and on top of that the Autonomic=
 Functions:<br>
<br>
* The ACP is the &quot;tool kit&quot;. It comprises various &quot;mechanics=
&quot;, such as negotiation, synchronisation, discovery of various sorts, m=
essaging, etc. Those are all based on a common addressing and naming concep=
t.<br>
<br>
* Autonomic Functions use that tool kit to do something clever. In other wo=
rds, the true autonomic &quot;intelligence&quot; sits on that level.<br>
<br>
There is *one* ACP, there are *many* autonomic functions on top.<br>
<br>
One way to decide to which layer something belongs is to ask: &quot;is this=
 (1) a generic functionality which many functions require, or is this (2) o=
ne specific function?&quot;. If the answer is (1), it belongs into the ACP,=
 if (2) it belongs into an autonomic function.<br>
<br>
So, in this light, my understanding (!) of fault management is that this is=
 an autonomic function, and would use common blocks of the underlying ACP. =
Conversely, it would not offer services to other autonomic functions on top=
. This is my way of thinking when I write &quot;this is an autonomic functi=
on&quot;.=C2=A0 And I&#39;m not 100% certain I understand what you&#39;re s=
uggesting, so please chime in here! (And I haven&#39;t read your draft full=
y yet, sorry)<br>
<br>
Look at <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-manage=
ment-01.txt" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">http://tools.ietf.org/id/=
draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-01.txt</a><br>
This draft describes &quot;intelligence&quot;. In that case, a way to autom=
atically manage address space. Sections 2.2 and 2.3 explain which parameter=
s and information exchanges such a function would require. Sheng wrote this=
 document to explain how an autonomic function would use a common ACP.<br>
<br>
Probably we should take some off-line time in Yokohama to discuss this in a=
 small team?<br>
<br>
Michael<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Anima [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org">anima-bo=
unces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Toy, Mehmet<br>
&gt; Sent: 15 October 2015 04:26<br>
&gt; To: Brian E Carpenter &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.co=
m">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Michael Behringer<br>
&gt; (mbehring) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.co=
m</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:anima@ietf.org">anima@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Michael and Brian,<br>
&gt; Per Toerless suggestion, I am including ANIMA group into the discussio=
n.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I re-read the &quot;A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking&quot; d=
ocument<br>
&gt; and I am not clear about the definitions.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; a)=C2=A0 In the &quot;A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking&quot;=
, ACP is<br>
&gt; defined as &quot;The Autonomic Control Plane is the summary of all<br>
&gt; interactions of the Autonomic Networking Infrastructure with other nod=
es and services.&quot;.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; b) Brian, you write as &quot; The ACP is common infrastructure for all=
<br>
&gt; autonomic functions.(The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of course.)<b=
r>
&gt; The signaling protocol is also common infrastructure.&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Question: What is ACP? a or b or combination?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; c) Section 4 in the reference model document , &quot;The Autonomic<br>
&gt; Networking Infrastructure provides a layer of common=C2=A0 functionali=
ty<br>
&gt; across an Autonomic Network.=C2=A0 It comprises &quot;must implement&q=
uot; functions<br>
&gt; and services, as well as extensions.&quot;<br>
&gt; Question: What are the &quot;must implement&quot; functionalities?=C2=
=A0 How do you<br>
&gt; define &quot;must implement&quot; functionalities?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thanks<br>
&gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gm=
ail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>]<br>
&gt; Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM<br>
&gt; To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); Toy, Mehmet<br>
&gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&=
#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.com</=
a>&#39;; &#39;anima-<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org">chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&#39=
;<br>
&gt; Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I agree with Michael. The ACP is common infrastructure for all<br>
&gt; autonomic functions.<br>
&gt; (The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of course.) The signaling<br>
&gt; protocol is also common infrastructure.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian<br>
&gt; On 15/10/2015 05:43, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; I would argue they are part of an autonomic function, which runs =
on<br>
&gt; &gt; top of<br>
&gt; the ACP.<br>
&gt; &gt; There are really two different pieces here, and this is I think t=
he<br>
&gt; &gt; confusion<br>
&gt; here:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; -=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The ACP is self-managing. It =
needs to do self-healing, and<br>
&gt; automatically adapt to new situations. But to me, this isn=E2=80=99t f=
ault<br>
&gt; management or performance management as an operator understands it.<br=
>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; -=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The network has FM and PM fun=
ction. Those could be (and should<br>
&gt; be, imo) autonomic functions. Those run on top of the ACP.<br>
&gt; &gt; Bottom line: I=E2=80=99d like to keep the ACP itself as minimalis=
tic and<br>
&gt; &gt; simple as we<br>
&gt; possibly can. Functions like FM / PM belong into an autonomic function=
, IMO.<br>
&gt; &gt; What do you think?<br>
&gt; &gt; Michael<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comc=
ast.com">Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: 14 October 2015 18:30<br>
&gt; &gt; To: Michael Behringer (mbehring) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@c=
isco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com=
</a>&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&=
gt;;<br>
&gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a=
>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.co=
m</a>&gt;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs=
@tools.ietf.org</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs@t=
ools.ietf.org</a>&gt;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">=
brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpen=
ter@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Michael,<br>
&gt; &gt; Instead of answering the question as Yes or No, let me give examp=
les<br>
&gt; &gt; to<br>
&gt; see what makes sense.<br>
&gt; &gt; Let=E2=80=99s say in a data path, a router port is failed.=C2=A0 =
The router<br>
&gt; &gt; generates an AIS<br>
&gt; (Alarm Indication Signal) and the receiving=C2=A0 end generates RDI (r=
emote<br>
&gt; Defect Indicator).=C2=A0 Both messages are generated by the hardware, =
not by a<br>
&gt; software or ACP.=C2=A0 =C2=A0As a result of this failure,=C2=A0 there =
would be packet loss. The<br>
&gt; hardware counts these losses, an ACP does not.<br>
&gt; &gt; For the FM and PM functions above, can we say they are part of an=
 ACP?<br>
&gt; &gt; Thanks<br>
&gt; &gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbeh=
ring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:34 AM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: Toy, Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com=
</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.=
com</a>&#39;; &#39;anima-<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org">chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&#39=
;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gm=
ail.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Hi Toy,<br>
&gt; &gt; To understand better: To me, fault management *uses* the function=
s<br>
&gt; &gt; of<br>
&gt; the AN infrastructure. It uses the ACP to communicate, maybe GRASP for=
<br>
&gt; some signalling, might be influenced by Intent, etc. Right?=C2=A0 So t=
o me,<br>
&gt; this is a logical component of an autonomic network that sits on top<b=
r>
&gt; of the AN infrastructure.<br>
&gt; &gt; Do we agree?<br>
&gt; &gt; Michael<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comc=
ast.com">Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: 13 October 2015 23:46<br>
&gt; &gt; To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&=
lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt;&=
gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com=
</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&=
lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&gt;&=
gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.c=
om</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.co=
m</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.=
com</a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs@=
tools.ietf.org</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs@t=
ools.ietf.org</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">=
anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpe=
nter@gmail.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpen=
ter@gmail.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">=
brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Michael,<br>
&gt; &gt; Appreciate the reply.<br>
&gt; &gt; FM is part of data plane and control plane (i.e. ANI in your diag=
ram).<br>
&gt; &gt; My plan is to add a short paragraph for now either to section 2 t=
o<br>
&gt; &gt; expand<br>
&gt; the description=C2=A0 of ANI or to section 4 to add a sub-section for =
Fault<br>
&gt; Management.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; It is also possible too add a Performance Management section to<b=
r>
&gt; &gt; describe<br>
&gt; what types of measurements and where and how are used.=C2=A0 Although =
there<br>
&gt; is a control feedback related measurement in the document, I don=E2=80=
=99t<br>
&gt; know if it is adequate.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; &gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbeh=
ring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 12:27 PM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: Toy, Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com=
</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.=
com</a>&#39;; &#39;anima-<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org">chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&#39=
;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gm=
ail.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Sorry for the delay, it=E2=80=99s very busy at the moment here.<b=
r>
&gt; &gt; To me, fault management refers generally to faults on the data<br=
>
&gt; &gt; plane, ie for<br>
&gt; user traffic. I see that happening at some point as an autonomic<br>
&gt; function (or several, for different aspects). Would you agree? Or do<b=
r>
&gt; you see that as a function inside the AN infrastructure?<br>
&gt; &gt; So my feeling is that function would reside on top of the<br>
&gt; &gt; infrastructure that<br>
&gt; we=E2=80=99re currently defining. So, please have a look whether your =
thoughts<br>
&gt; can be described as an autonomic function. I think they probably can.<=
br>
&gt; &gt; Then I suggest we do the same that we=E2=80=99re planning to do w=
ith the NMS<br>
&gt; section, the model discussion, etc: Have a short paragraph describe<br=
>
&gt; the overall topic briefly, and point to an external doc for now, i.e.,=
<br>
&gt; probably your draft.<br>
&gt; &gt; If you agree, can you suggest where in the reference model you wo=
uld<br>
&gt; &gt; add<br>
&gt; a short paragraph about fault management, and I suppose we=E2=80=99d p=
oint to<br>
&gt; your draft, right?<br>
&gt; &gt; Michael<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comc=
ast.com">Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: 13 October 2015 03:53<br>
&gt; &gt; To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&=
lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt;&=
gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com=
</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&=
lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&gt;&=
gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.c=
om</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.co=
m</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.=
com</a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs@=
tools.ietf.org</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs@t=
ools.ietf.org</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">=
anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpe=
nter@gmail.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpen=
ter@gmail.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">=
brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Mike,<br>
&gt; &gt; I am waiting for your response.<br>
&gt; &gt; Thanks<br>
&gt; &gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Toy, Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 8:13 PM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com=
</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com=
</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.=
com</a>&#39;; &#39;anima-<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org">chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&#39=
;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gm=
ail.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Mike,<br>
&gt; &gt; I can send you some text to include in section 2 and 4 of=C2=A0 =
=E2=80=9CA<br>
&gt; &gt; Reference<br>
&gt; Model for Autonomic Networking,=C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-behringer-anima-refe=
rence-<br>
&gt; model-03=E2=80=9D,=C2=A0 per Sheng=E2=80=99s suggestion.<br>
&gt; &gt; Should I just do that?<br>
&gt; &gt; Thanks<br>
&gt; &gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Toy, Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 7:53 AM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huaw=
ei.com</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-=
chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&#39;;<br>
&gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@=
gmail.com</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cis=
co.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com=
</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Sheng,<br>
&gt; &gt; Appreciate a quick response.<br>
&gt; &gt; I will work on your suggestion.<br>
&gt; &gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com=
">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 06:08 AM Eastern Standard Time<b=
r>
&gt; &gt; To: Toy, Mehmet;<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs@tools=
.ietf.org</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anim=
a-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs@t=
ools.ietf.org</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">=
anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@=
gmail.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">bria=
n.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpen=
ter@gmail.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">=
brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&lt;m=
ailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&=
lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt;&=
gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)<br>
&gt; &gt; (<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&lt;=
mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&gt;)<br=
>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&=
lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&gt;&=
gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Hi, Toy,<br>
&gt; &gt; First of all, for my understanding, your work is in the scope of =
the<br>
&gt; &gt; WG<br>
&gt; charter. However, we do not have work item or milestone for it. It<br>
&gt; looks like an upper-layer autonomic service agent for me. In our plan,=
<br>
&gt; autonomic service agents are mainly for the next period, which is<br>
&gt; after re-charter (this is the same with your suggestion of modifying<b=
r>
&gt; the charter, but it cannot happen until we deliver the current<br>
&gt; milestones). For now, the best may be try to add some description,<br>
&gt; maybe mainly abstracted functionality, into the reference model docume=
nt.<br>
&gt; &gt; Best regards,<br>
&gt; &gt; Sheng<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comc=
ast.com">Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 1:14 AM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chairs@t=
ools.ietf.org</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">=
anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@=
gmail.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">bria=
n.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&lt;m=
ailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)<br>
&gt; &gt; (<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&lt;=
mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&gt;)<br=
>
&gt; &gt; Subject: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Dear All:<br>
&gt; &gt; I couldn=E2=80=99t attend the Prague meeting, but luckily Dan was=
 able to<br>
&gt; &gt; present<br>
&gt; my slides on =E2=80=9CSelf-Managed Networks with Fault Management Hier=
archy=E2=80=9D.<br>
&gt; The feedback was to position the work in the ANIMA WG scope and<br>
&gt; framework.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; ANIMA charter in =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et. al., A Reference Mode=
l for<br>
&gt; &gt; Autonomic<br>
&gt; Networking<br>
&gt; &gt; draft-behringer-anima-reference-model-03=E2=80=9D refers to =E2=
=80=9Cself-healing=E2=80=9D.<br>
&gt; RFC7575,=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et al.,=C2=A0 =C2=A0Autonomic Ne=
tworking: Definitions and<br>
&gt; Design Goals=E2=80=9D,=C2=A0 refers to =E2=80=9Cself-management=E2=80=
=9D. However, both documents<br>
&gt; do not=C2=A0 articulate fault management aspect of the self-management=
.=C2=A0 It<br>
&gt; is possible to interpret the fault management aspect of autonomic<br>
&gt; networks as part of =E2=80=9Cself-healing=E2=80=9D and therefore as pa=
rt of the ANIMA<br>
&gt; charter.=C2=A0 In that case, the =E2=80=9CArchitectural Framework for =
Self-Managed<br>
&gt; Networks with Fault Management Hierarchy,<br>
&gt; draft-mtoy-anima-self-faultmang-framework-<br>
&gt; 00.txt=E2=80=9D contribution can target to fill that gap.=C2=A0 The co=
ntrol plane<br>
&gt; aspect of self-healing is addressed by =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et al., =
An<br>
&gt; Autonomic Control Plane,<br>
&gt; draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane-03=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 I bel=
ieve these<br>
&gt; contributions are complementary to each other. I can try to address th=
at in the contribution.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Please let me know if you agree with me. If not, I suggest to mod=
ify<br>
&gt; &gt; the<br>
&gt; charter since without covering fault management aspect of the<br>
&gt; autonomic networks, the concept of autonomic network will be incomplet=
e.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; &gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; Anima mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima" target=3D"_bla=
nk" rel=3D"noreferrer">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Anima mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima" target=3D"_blank" r=
el=3D"noreferrer">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail_sig=
nature"><div>regards,</div><div>John</div></div>
</div>

--001a1143e074d10f020522577d98--


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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, "Toy, Mehmet" <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, Anima WG <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-addressing-02.txt
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Subject: Re: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-addressing-02.txt
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Hi Brian,=20

We've tried other words before, for example "area". All of which have the s=
ame problem - they've been used before. (And, btw, I found "area" nicer).

I agree that it would be nice to have a  new term, but I can't find a good =
one. Suggestions?=20

Otherwise, we'll have have to live with it, and when people talk they have =
to say "autonomic zone" as opposed to "IPv6 zone".=20

Michael

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E
> Carpenter
> Sent: 18 October 2015 00:04
> To: Anima WG <anima@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-
> addressing-02.txt
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> I might have mentioned this before, but the use of the phrase "zone ID" i=
n
> this context is confusing, because it already has a meaning in IPv6 addre=
ssing
> (see RFC 4007 and RFC 6874). I think we need to find an alternative phras=
e.
>=20
> Regards
>    Brian
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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From: "Toy, Mehmet" <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>
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From: "Toy, Mehmet" <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>
To: John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com>, Toerless Eckert <eckert@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
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Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 15:13:18 +0000
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Cc: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\) \(dromasca@avaya.com\)" <dromasca@avaya.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "mbehring@cisco.com" <mbehring@cisco.com>, "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
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From: "Toy, Mehmet" <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>
To: "reddy.pallavali@ulusofona.pt" <reddy.pallavali@ulusofona.pt>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
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Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 15:13:17 +0000
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Cc: "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, Paulo Mendes <paulo.mendes@ulusofona.pt>, "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
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From: "Toy, Mehmet" <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>
To: John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
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Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 16:37:36 +0100
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From: Reddy Pallavali <f80077@ulusofona.pt>
To: "Toy, Mehmet" <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>
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Cc: "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, Paulo Mendes <paulo.mendes@ulusofona.pt>, "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
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Mehmet,

Of course SyncE can be implemented in a distributed fashion.
But, the main issue hear is that, in synchronization Source node has to
force to change the Sink nodes time (have to force all the nodes to change
their timings). I think isnt an efficient enough since, in geographic area,
cannot force all objects to change their timings (the global time conflicts
with the local time). So, i am arguing  that the need of consensus.

In consensus no object forces no object to change something, however they
will reach global intelligence by means of simple local communications.
Here we have to think about convergence (can be achieved with suitable SI
algorithm).

On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Toy, Mehmet <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>
wrote:

> Reddy,
>
> I believe SyncE can be implemented in distributed fashion. Nevertheless,
> it looks like we agree on the definitions of consensus and synchronizatio=
n.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mehmet
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Reddy Pallavali [mailto:f80077@ulusofona.pt]
> *Sent:* Friday, October 16, 2015 7:53 AM
> *To:* Toy, Mehmet
> *Cc:* Michael Behringer (mbehring); Brian E Carpenter; anima@ietf.org;
> Paulo Mendes
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
>
>
>
> Hello Toy,
>
> As of my PhD thesis area is Consensus problem, i went through
> synchronization as well. The time synchronization is a centralized
> approach, that forces all objects to change their system timings to reach
> their goal; while consensus is a fully distributed approach, all objects
> have to agree on certain state: where the importance of convergence takes
> place. Here, we can use SI or AI approaches to improve the convergence.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 5:04 AM, Toy, Mehmet <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.co=
m>
> wrote:
>
> Reddy,
>
> I believe =E2=80=9Csynchronization=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cconsensus=E2=80=
=9D words are applicable to
> different situations. You gave a good AI example for consensus.
>
> On the other hand  if we are talking timing relationship between two ends
> of  a  circuit emulation, we have to use =E2=80=9Csynchronization=E2=80=
=9D.
>
>
>
> In autonomous networks, we might be able to use both words depending on
> the situation.
>
> Thanks
>
> Mehmet
>
>
>
> *From:* Reddy Pallavali [mailto:f80077@ulusofona.pt]
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 15, 2015 6:03 AM
> *To:* Michael Behringer (mbehring)
> *Cc:* Toy, Mehmet; Brian E Carpenter; anima@ietf.org
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
>
>
>
> Many thanks for your kind reply,
>
> Recently i joined in IETF - ANIMA group, so i do not know about IETF -
> Yokohama; I will look into that.
>
>
>
> Since, the networks are fully distributed, asynchronous, heterogeneous an=
d
> dynamic, as i understood.
>
> Consensus relay convergence time, robustness, and fault-tolerance against
> failures (e.g. termination, validation, integrity and agreement).
>
> For instance, in ACP, the autonomic functions have to fulfill their
> individual goals and also must cooperate their behaviour towards global
> goal of the entire network. Meaning that autonomic functions such as,
> energy efficiency, load balancing, scalability, availability conflicts wi=
th
> each other based on users mobility. The energy efficiency function
> conflicts with availability and mobility; also with load balancing; since
> adaptively micro, macro, and pico cells have to adjust their
> functionalities in the mean time have to serve all its objects under thei=
r
> signals. So, there is a need of coordinated function (consensus state),
> that maximizes individual and global goals by reducing conflicts between
> them.
>
> We have Swarm and Artificial Intelligence techniques to reach consensus
> state in a dynamic situation, since they will learn the past and anticipa=
te
> the future by prediction.
>
>
>
> I hope it works better for bottom-up approach, as you mentioned this
> groups focus is also bottom-up.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:27 AM, Michael Behringer (mbehring) <
> mbehring@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Reddy,
>
>
>
> Thanks for chiming in!  Nice to get some fresh view on our work.
>
>
>
> I=E2=80=99m not sure consensus is =E2=80=9Cinstead=E2=80=9D of synchronis=
ation, I think those are
> two different things. Synchronisation just keeps the state on some device=
s
> in sync, consensus is to me a specific form of negotiation.
>
>
>
> In this working group we=E2=80=99re very focused on a bottom-up approach,=
 i.e.,
> first understand small building blocks and how we can use them, later plu=
g
> them together in a wider framework. The approach is use-case driven, in
> other words, for everything we do we=E2=80=99d like a clear example on ho=
w this
> would be used in a running network.
>
>
>
> Can you give us an example on how consensus could be used in today=E2=80=
=99s
> networks? The simpler the example, the better. We are looking to understa=
nd
> how a network function would use consensus in a concrete situation.
>
>
>
> Once we understand the use case, we can see how and where to bring it in.
>
>
>
> Will you be at the IETF in Yokohama? If so, we should meet and discuss.
>
>
>
> Michael
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Reddy Pallavali [mailto:f80077@ulusofona.pt]
> *Sent:* 15 October 2015 11:08
> *To:* Michael Behringer (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com>
> *Cc:* Toy, Mehmet <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>; Brian E Carpenter <
> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>; anima@ietf.org
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I am new to this mailing list, and junior researcher from COPELABS, Lisbo=
n.
>
> I have one suggestion when it comes to ACP toolkit - instead of using
> synchronization, can use consensus?
>
> Since, synchronization is more towards centralized "Coordinator initiate
> to agree on something (towards centralized), and others have to adjust
> their state".
>
> When it comes to consensus "individual neighbors come to global
> intelligence by simple communication rules (fully distributed), and
> majority opinion is valid".
>
> My PhD thesis area is on Consensus so, i can contribute this section.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 9:57 AM, Michael Behringer (mbehring) <
> mbehring@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> Toy, thanks for raising those questions. Obviously, we're not doing a goo=
d
> job yet in describing what the ACP is, and that needs to be fixed. And
> obviously, we all need the same view to progress further. So this is a ve=
ry
> important discussion, and I really welcome it.
>
> Before formalising better text, let me see whether we get agreement on th=
e
> fundamental idea.
>
> In my head, there are two layers: The ACP, and on top of that the
> Autonomic Functions:
>
> * The ACP is the "tool kit". It comprises various "mechanics", such as
> negotiation, synchronisation, discovery of various sorts, messaging, etc.
> Those are all based on a common addressing and naming concept.
>
> * Autonomic Functions use that tool kit to do something clever. In other
> words, the true autonomic "intelligence" sits on that level.
>
> There is *one* ACP, there are *many* autonomic functions on top.
>
> One way to decide to which layer something belongs is to ask: "is this (1=
)
> a generic functionality which many functions require, or is this (2) one
> specific function?". If the answer is (1), it belongs into the ACP, if (2=
)
> it belongs into an autonomic function.
>
> So, in this light, my understanding (!) of fault management is that this
> is an autonomic function, and would use common blocks of the underlying
> ACP. Conversely, it would not offer services to other autonomic functions
> on top. This is my way of thinking when I write "this is an autonomic
> function".  And I'm not 100% certain I understand what you're suggesting,
> so please chime in here! (And I haven't read your draft fully yet, sorry)
>
> Look at
> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-01.txt
> This draft describes "intelligence". In that case, a way to automatically
> manage address space. Sections 2.2 and 2.3 explain which parameters and
> information exchanges such a function would require. Sheng wrote this
> document to explain how an autonomic function would use a common ACP.
>
> Probably we should take some off-line time in Yokohama to discuss this in
> a small team?
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Toy, Mehmet
> > Sent: 15 October 2015 04:26
> > To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>; Michael Behringer
> > (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com>; anima@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
> >
> > Michael and Brian,
> > Per Toerless suggestion, I am including ANIMA group into the discussion=
.
> >
> > I re-read the "A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking" document and
> > I am not clear about the definitions.
> >
> > a)  In the "A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking", ACP is defined
> as
> > "The Autonomic Control Plane is the summary of all interactions of the
> > Autonomic Networking Infrastructure with other nodes and services.".
> >
> > b) Brian, you write as " The ACP is common infrastructure for all
> autonomic
> > functions.(The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of course.) The signalin=
g
> > protocol is also common infrastructure."
> >
> > Question: What is ACP? a or b or combination?
> >
> > c) Section 4 in the reference model document , "The Autonomic Networkin=
g
> > Infrastructure provides a layer of common  functionality across an
> Autonomic
> > Network.  It comprises "must implement" functions and services, as well
> as
> > extensions."
> > Question: What are the "must implement" functionalities?  How do you
> > define "must implement" functionalities?
> >
> > Thanks
> > Mehmet
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM
> > To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); Toy, Mehmet
> > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
> > chairs@tools.ietf.org'
> > Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks
> >
> > I agree with Michael. The ACP is common infrastructure for all autonomi=
c
> > functions.
> > (The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of course.) The signaling protocol
> is also
> > common infrastructure.
> >
> >    Brian
> > On 15/10/2015 05:43, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
> > > I would argue they are part of an autonomic function, which runs on
> top of
> > the ACP.
> > > There are really two different pieces here, and this is I think the
> confusion
> > here:
> > >
> > > -          The ACP is self-managing. It needs to do self-healing, and
> > automatically adapt to new situations. But to me, this isn=E2=80=99t fa=
ult
> management
> > or performance management as an operator understands it.
> > >
> > > -          The network has FM and PM function. Those could be (and
> should
> > be, imo) autonomic functions. Those run on top of the ACP.
> > > Bottom line: I=E2=80=99d like to keep the ACP itself as minimalistic =
and
> simple as we
> > possibly can. Functions like FM / PM belong into an autonomic function,
> IMO.
> > > What do you think?
> > > Michael
> > > From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
> > > Sent: 14 October 2015 18:30
> > > To: Michael Behringer (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com>
> > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com' <dromasca@avaya.com>;
> > 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'
> > > <jiangsheng@huawei.com>; 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org'
> > > <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
> > > <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
> > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Michael,
> > > Instead of answering the question as Yes or No, let me give examples =
to
> > see what makes sense.
> > > Let=E2=80=99s say in a data path, a router port is failed.  The route=
r
> generates an AIS
> > (Alarm Indication Signal) and the receiving  end generates RDI (remote
> > Defect Indicator).  Both messages are generated by the hardware, not by=
 a
> > software or ACP.   As a result of this failure,  there would be packet
> loss. The
> > hardware counts these losses, an ACP does not.
> > > For the FM and PM functions above, can we say they are part of an ACP=
?
> > > Thanks
> > > Mehmet
> > > From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:34 AM
> > > To: Toy, Mehmet
> > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
> > chairs@tools.ietf.org'; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
> > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Hi Toy,
> > > To understand better: To me, fault management *uses* the functions of
> > the AN infrastructure. It uses the ACP to communicate, maybe GRASP for
> > some signalling, might be influenced by Intent, etc. Right?  So to me,
> this is a
> > logical component of an autonomic network that sits on top of the AN
> > infrastructure.
> > > Do we agree?
> > > Michael
> > >
> > > From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
> > > Sent: 13 October 2015 23:46
> > > To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
> > > <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
> > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'
> > > <dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>;
> > > 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'
> > > <jiangsheng@huawei.com<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>>;
> > > 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org'
> > > <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>;
> > > 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
> > > <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>
> > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Michael,
> > > Appreciate the reply.
> > > FM is part of data plane and control plane (i.e. ANI in your diagram)=
.
> > > My plan is to add a short paragraph for now either to section 2 to
> expand
> > the description  of ANI or to section 4 to add a sub-section for Fault
> > Management.
> > >
> > > It is also possible too add a Performance Management section to
> describe
> > what types of measurements and where and how are used.  Although there
> > is a control feedback related measurement in the document, I don=E2=80=
=99t know
> if
> > it is adequate.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Mehmet
> > > From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 12:27 PM
> > > To: Toy, Mehmet
> > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
> > chairs@tools.ietf.org'; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
> > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Sorry for the delay, it=E2=80=99s very busy at the moment here.
> > > To me, fault management refers generally to faults on the data plane,
> ie for
> > user traffic. I see that happening at some point as an autonomic
> function (or
> > several, for different aspects). Would you agree? Or do you see that as=
 a
> > function inside the AN infrastructure?
> > > So my feeling is that function would reside on top of the
> infrastructure that
> > we=E2=80=99re currently defining. So, please have a look whether your t=
houghts
> can
> > be described as an autonomic function. I think they probably can.
> > > Then I suggest we do the same that we=E2=80=99re planning to do with =
the NMS
> > section, the model discussion, etc: Have a short paragraph describe the
> > overall topic briefly, and point to an external doc for now, i.e.,
> probably your
> > draft.
> > > If you agree, can you suggest where in the reference model you would
> add
> > a short paragraph about fault management, and I suppose we=E2=80=99d po=
int to
> your
> > draft, right?
> > > Michael
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
> > > Sent: 13 October 2015 03:53
> > > To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
> > > <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
> > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'
> > > <dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>;
> > > 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'
> > > <jiangsheng@huawei.com<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>>;
> > > 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org'
> > > <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>;
> > > 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
> > > <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>
> > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Mike,
> > > I am waiting for your response.
> > > Thanks
> > > Mehmet
> > >
> > > From: Toy, Mehmet
> > > Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 8:13 PM
> > > To: 'mbehring@cisco.com'
> > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
> > chairs@tools.ietf.org'; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
> > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Mike,
> > > I can send you some text to include in section 2 and 4 of  =E2=80=9CA=
 Reference
> > Model for Autonomic Networking,   draft-behringer-anima-reference-
> > model-03=E2=80=9D,  per Sheng=E2=80=99s suggestion.
> > > Should I just do that?
> > > Thanks
> > > Mehmet
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Toy, Mehmet
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 7:53 AM
> > > To: 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org';
> > 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'; 'mbehring@cisco.com'
> > > Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'
> > > Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Sheng,
> > > Appreciate a quick response.
> > > I will work on your suggestion.
> > > Mehmet
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 06:08 AM Eastern Standard Time
> > > To: Toy, Mehmet;
> > > anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>
> > > <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>;
> > > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
> > > <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>;
> > > mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>
> > > <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
> > > Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
> > > (dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>)
> > > <dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>
> > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Hi, Toy,
> > > First of all, for my understanding, your work is in the scope of the =
WG
> > charter. However, we do not have work item or milestone for it. It look=
s
> like
> > an upper-layer autonomic service agent for me. In our plan, autonomic
> > service agents are mainly for the next period, which is after re-charte=
r
> (this is
> > the same with your suggestion of modifying the charter, but it cannot
> > happen until we deliver the current milestones). For now, the best may =
be
> > try to add some description, maybe mainly abstracted functionality, int=
o
> the
> > reference model document.
> > > Best regards,
> > > Sheng
> > >
> > > From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 1:14 AM
> > > To: anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>;
> > > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>;
> > > mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>
> > > Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
> > > (dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>)
> > > Subject: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Dear All:
> > > I couldn=E2=80=99t attend the Prague meeting, but luckily Dan was abl=
e to
> present
> > my slides on =E2=80=9CSelf-Managed Networks with Fault Management Hiera=
rchy=E2=80=9D.
> > The feedback was to position the work in the ANIMA WG scope and
> > framework.
> > >
> > > ANIMA charter in =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et. al., A Reference Model fo=
r
> Autonomic
> > Networking
> > > draft-behringer-anima-reference-model-03=E2=80=9D refers to =E2=80=9C=
self-healing=E2=80=9D.
> > RFC7575,  =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et al.,   Autonomic Networking: Defini=
tions and
> > Design Goals=E2=80=9D,  refers to =E2=80=9Cself-management=E2=80=9D. Ho=
wever, both documents do
> > not  articulate fault management aspect of the self-management.  It is
> > possible to interpret the fault management aspect of autonomic networks
> as
> > part of =E2=80=9Cself-healing=E2=80=9D and therefore as part of the ANI=
MA charter.  In
> that
> > case, the =E2=80=9CArchitectural Framework for Self-Managed Networks wi=
th Fault
> > Management Hierarchy, draft-mtoy-anima-self-faultmang-framework-
> > 00.txt=E2=80=9D contribution can target to fill that gap.  The control =
plane
> aspect of
> > self-healing is addressed by =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et al., An Autonomi=
c Control
> > Plane, draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane-03=E2=80=9D.  I be=
lieve
> these
> > contributions are complementary to each other. I can try to address tha=
t
> in
> > the contribution.
> > >
> > > Please let me know if you agree with me. If not, I suggest to modify
> the
> > charter since without covering fault management aspect of the autonomic
> > networks, the concept of autonomic network will be incomplete.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Mehmet
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Anima mailing list
> > Anima@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Thank you very much for your time and consideration.
>
>
>
> Yours sincerely,
>
> P Radha Krishna Reddy, M.Sc, M.Tech,
>
> Junior Researcher/Ph.D Student,
>
> COPE LABS, Universidade Lusofona, Lisboa - Portugal.
>
> Author of: Security Issues of Cloud Computing over General & IT Sector
> Mobile: +351923095671
> www.prkreddy.webs.com
> http://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Thank you very much for your time and consideration.
>
>
>
> Yours sincerely,
>
> P Radha Krishna Reddy, M.Sc, M.Tech,
>
> Junior Researcher/Ph.D Student,
>
> COPE LABS, Universidade Lusofona, Lisboa - Portugal.
>
> Author of: Security Issues of Cloud Computing over General & IT Sector
> Mobile: +351923095671
> www.prkreddy.webs.com
> http://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Thank you very much for your time and consideration.
>
>
>
> Yours sincerely,
>
> P Radha Krishna Reddy, M.Sc, M.Tech,
>
> Junior Researcher/Ph.D Student,
>
> COPE LABS, Universidade Lusofona, Lisboa - Portugal.
>
> Author of: Security Issues of Cloud Computing over General & IT Sector
> Mobile: +351923095671
> www.prkreddy.webs.com
> http://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/
>



--=20
Thank you very much for your time and consideration.


Yours sincerely,

P Radha Krishna Reddy, M.Sc, M.Tech,

Junior Researcher/Ph.D Student,

COPE LABS, Universidade Lusofona, Lisboa - Portugal.
Author of: Security Issues of Cloud Computing over General & IT Sector
Mobile: +351923095671
www.prkreddy.webs.com
http://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/

--089e0112c50ce8911d052262ce17
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div>Mehmet,<br><br></div>Of course SyncE can be=
 implemented in a distributed fashion.<br></div>But, the main issue hear is=
 that, in synchronization Source node has to force to change the Sink nodes=
 time (have to force all the nodes to change their timings). I think isnt a=
n efficient enough since, in geographic area, cannot force all objects to c=
hange their timings (the global time conflicts with the local time). So, i =
am arguing=C2=A0 that the need of consensus. <br><br></div>In consensus no =
object forces no object to change something, however they will reach global=
 intelligence by means of simple local communications. Here we have to thin=
k about convergence (can be achieved with suitable SI algorithm). <br></div=
><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Oct 18, =
2015 at 4:13 PM, Toy, Mehmet <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Mehmet=
_Toy@cable.comcast.com" target=3D"_blank">Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>&=
gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 =
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"EN-US">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Reddy,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I believe SyncE can be implemented in=
 distributed fashion. Nevertheless, it looks like we agree on the definitio=
ns of consensus and synchronization.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Mehmet
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Reddy Pallavali [mailto:<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:f80077@ulusofona.pt" target=3D"_blank">f80077@ulusofona.pt</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 16, 2015 7:53 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Toy, Mehmet<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Michael Behringer (mbehring); Brian E Carpenter; <a href=3D"mail=
to:anima@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">anima@ietf.org</a>; Paulo Mendes</span=
></p><div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks<u></u><u></u></div></div>=
<p></p><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hello Toy,<u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As of my PhD thesis area is Consensus problem, i wen=
t through synchronization as well. The time synchronization is a centralize=
d approach, that forces all objects to change their system timings to reach=
 their goal; while consensus is a
 fully distributed approach, all objects have to agree on certain state: wh=
ere the importance of convergence takes place. Here, we can use SI or AI ap=
proaches to improve the convergence.
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 5:04 AM, Toy, Mehmet &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com" target=3D"_blank">Mehmet_Toy@c=
able.comcast.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Reddy,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I believe =E2=80=9Csynchronization=E2=
=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cconsensus=E2=80=9D words are applicable to different si=
tuations. You gave
 a good AI example for consensus. =C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">On the other hand=C2=A0 if we are tal=
king timing relationship between two ends of =C2=A0a=C2=A0 circuit emulatio=
n,
 we have to use =E2=80=9Csynchronization=E2=80=9D.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">In autonomous networks, we might be a=
ble to use both words depending on the situation.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Thanks</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Mehmet</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Reddy Pallavali [mailto:<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:f80077@ulusofona.pt" target=3D"_blank">f80077@ulusofona.pt</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 15, 2015 6:03 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Michael Behringer (mbehring)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Toy, Mehmet; Brian E Carpenter; <a href=3D"mailto:anima@ietf.org=
" target=3D"_blank">
anima@ietf.org</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Many thanks for your =
kind reply,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Recently i joined in IETF - ANIMA group, so i do not=
 know about IETF - Yokohama; I will look into that.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Since, the networks a=
re fully distributed, asynchronous, heterogeneous and dynamic, as i underst=
ood.<br>
<br>
Consensus relay convergence time,=C2=A0robustness, and fault-tolerance agai=
nst failures (e.g. termination, validation, integrity and agreement).<u></u=
><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">For instance, in ACP,=
 the autonomic functions have to fulfill their individual goals and also mu=
st cooperate their behaviour towards global goal of the entire network. Mea=
ning that autonomic
 functions such as, energy efficiency, load balancing, scalability, availab=
ility conflicts with each other based on users mobility. The energy efficie=
ncy function conflicts with availability and mobility; also with load balan=
cing; since adaptively micro, macro,
 and pico cells have to adjust their functionalities in the mean time have =
to serve all its objects under their signals. So, there is a need of coordi=
nated function (consensus state), that maximizes individual and global goal=
s by reducing conflicts between
 them. <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We have Swarm and Artificial Intelligence techniques=
 to reach consensus state in a dynamic situation, since they will learn the=
 past and anticipate the future by prediction.
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I hope it works better for bottom-up approach, as yo=
u mentioned this groups focus is also bottom-up.
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:27 AM, Michael Behringer =
(mbehring) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">mbeh=
ring@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-GB">Hi Reddy,
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-GB">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-GB">Thanks for chiming in!=
=C2=A0 Nice to get some fresh view on our work.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-GB">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-GB">I=E2=80=99m not sure c=
onsensus is =E2=80=9Cinstead=E2=80=9D of synchronisation, I think those are=
 two different
 things. Synchronisation just keeps the state on some devices in sync, cons=
ensus is to me a specific form of negotiation.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-GB">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-GB">In this working group =
we=E2=80=99re very focused on a bottom-up approach, i.e., first understand
 small building blocks and how we can use them, later plug them together in=
 a wider framework. The approach is use-case driven, in other words, for ev=
erything we do we=E2=80=99d like a clear example on how this would be used =
in a running network.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-GB">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-GB">Can you give us an exa=
mple on how consensus could be used in today=E2=80=99s networks? The simple=
r
 the example, the better. We are looking to understand how a network functi=
on would use consensus in a concrete situation.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-GB">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-GB">Once we understand the=
 use case, we can see how and where to bring it in.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-GB">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-GB">Will you be at the IET=
F in Yokohama? If so, we should meet and discuss.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-GB">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-GB">Michael</span><u></u><=
u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-GB">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-GB">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Reddy Pallavali [mailto:<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:f80077@ulusofona.pt" target=3D"_blank">f80077@ulusofona.pt</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 15 October 2015 11:08<br>
<b>To:</b> Michael Behringer (mbehring) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisc=
o.com" target=3D"_blank">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Toy, Mehmet &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com" =
target=3D"_blank">Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>&gt;; Brian E Carpenter &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">brian.e=
.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:anima@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">anima@ietf.org</a></spa=
n><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif" lang=3D"EN-GB"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">=
Hi,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">=
I am new to this mailing list, and junior researcher from COPELABS, Lisbon.=
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">=
I have one suggestion when it comes to ACP toolkit - instead of using synch=
ronization, can use consensus?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Since, synchronization is more =
towards centralized &quot;Coordinator initiate to agree on something (towar=
ds centralized), and others have to adjust their state&quot;.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">=
When it comes to consensus &quot;individual neighbors come to global intell=
igence by simple communication rules (fully distributed), and majority opin=
ion is valid&quot;.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">=
My PhD thesis area is on Consensus so, i can contribute this section.</span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 9:57 AM=
, Michael Behringer (mbehring) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Toy, thanks for raising those q=
uestions. Obviously, we&#39;re not doing a good job yet in describing what =
the ACP is, and that needs to be fixed. And obviously, we
 all need the same view to progress further. So this is a very important di=
scussion, and I really welcome it.<br>
<br>
Before formalising better text, let me see whether we get agreement on the =
fundamental idea.<br>
<br>
In my head, there are two layers: The ACP, and on top of that the Autonomic=
 Functions:<br>
<br>
* The ACP is the &quot;tool kit&quot;. It comprises various &quot;mechanics=
&quot;, such as negotiation, synchronisation, discovery of various sorts, m=
essaging, etc. Those are all based on a common addressing and naming concep=
t.<br>
<br>
* Autonomic Functions use that tool kit to do something clever. In other wo=
rds, the true autonomic &quot;intelligence&quot; sits on that level.<br>
<br>
There is *one* ACP, there are *many* autonomic functions on top.<br>
<br>
One way to decide to which layer something belongs is to ask: &quot;is this=
 (1) a generic functionality which many functions require, or is this (2) o=
ne specific function?&quot;. If the answer is (1), it belongs into the ACP,=
 if (2) it belongs into an autonomic function.<br>
<br>
So, in this light, my understanding (!) of fault management is that this is=
 an autonomic function, and would use common blocks of the underlying ACP. =
Conversely, it would not offer services to other autonomic functions on top=
. This is my way of thinking when
 I write &quot;this is an autonomic function&quot;.=C2=A0 And I&#39;m not 1=
00% certain I understand what you&#39;re suggesting, so please chime in her=
e! (And I haven&#39;t read your draft fully yet, sorry)<br>
<br>
Look at <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-manage=
ment-01.txt" target=3D"_blank">
http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-01.txt</a><br>
This draft describes &quot;intelligence&quot;. In that case, a way to autom=
atically manage address space. Sections 2.2 and 2.3 explain which parameter=
s and information exchanges such a function would require. Sheng wrote this=
 document to explain how an autonomic function
 would use a common ACP.<br>
<br>
Probably we should take some off-line time in Yokohama to discuss this in a=
 small team?<br>
<span style=3D"color:#888888"><br>
Michael</span></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><br>
<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Anima [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">anima-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Toy, Mehmet<br>
&gt; Sent: 15 October 2015 04:26<br>
&gt; To: Brian E Carpenter &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Michael Behringer=
<br>
&gt; (mbehring) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:anima@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">anima@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Michael and Brian,<br>
&gt; Per Toerless suggestion, I am including ANIMA group into the discussio=
n.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I re-read the &quot;A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking&quot; d=
ocument and<br>
&gt; I am not clear about the definitions.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; a)=C2=A0 In the &quot;A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking&quot;=
, ACP is defined as<br>
&gt; &quot;The Autonomic Control Plane is the summary of all interactions o=
f the<br>
&gt; Autonomic Networking Infrastructure with other nodes and services.&quo=
t;.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; b) Brian, you write as &quot; The ACP is common infrastructure for all=
 autonomic<br>
&gt; functions.(The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of course.) The signali=
ng<br>
&gt; protocol is also common infrastructure.&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Question: What is ACP? a or b or combination?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; c) Section 4 in the reference model document , &quot;The Autonomic Net=
working<br>
&gt; Infrastructure provides a layer of common=C2=A0 functionality across a=
n Autonomic<br>
&gt; Network.=C2=A0 It comprises &quot;must implement&quot; functions and s=
ervices, as well as<br>
&gt; extensions.&quot;<br>
&gt; Question: What are the &quot;must implement&quot; functionalities?=C2=
=A0 How do you<br>
&gt; define &quot;must implement&quot; functionalities?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thanks<br>
&gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gm=
ail.com" target=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>]<br>
&gt; Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM<br>
&gt; To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); Toy, Mehmet<br>
&gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_blank">droma=
sca@avaya.com</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>&#39;; &#39;anima-<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">chairs@tool=
s.ietf.org</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I agree with Michael. The ACP is common infrastructure for all autonom=
ic<br>
&gt; functions.<br>
&gt; (The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of course.) The signaling protoco=
l is also<br>
&gt; common infrastructure.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian<br>
&gt; On 15/10/2015 05:43, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; I would argue they are part of an autonomic function, which runs =
on top of<br>
&gt; the ACP.<br>
&gt; &gt; There are really two different pieces here, and this is I think t=
he confusion<br>
&gt; here:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; -=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The ACP is self-managing. It =
needs to do self-healing, and<br>
&gt; automatically adapt to new situations. But to me, this isn=E2=80=99t f=
ault management<br>
&gt; or performance management as an operator understands it.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; -=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The network has FM and PM fun=
ction. Those could be (and should<br>
&gt; be, imo) autonomic functions. Those run on top of the ACP.<br>
&gt; &gt; Bottom line: I=E2=80=99d like to keep the ACP itself as minimalis=
tic and simple as we<br>
&gt; possibly can. Functions like FM / PM belong into an autonomic function=
, IMO.<br>
&gt; &gt; What do you think?<br>
&gt; &gt; Michael<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comc=
ast.com" target=3D"_blank">Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: 14 October 2015 18:30<br>
&gt; &gt; To: Michael Behringer (mbehring) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@c=
isco.com" target=3D"_blank">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_blank">=
dromasca@avaya.com</a>&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&gt;;<br>
&gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">jiangs=
heng@huawei.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">ji=
angsheng@huawei.com</a>&gt;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf=
.org" target=3D"_blank">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&gt;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.car=
penter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&#39;<br=
>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Michael,<br>
&gt; &gt; Instead of answering the question as Yes or No, let me give examp=
les to<br>
&gt; see what makes sense.<br>
&gt; &gt; Let=E2=80=99s say in a data path, a router port is failed.=C2=A0 =
The router generates an AIS<br>
&gt; (Alarm Indication Signal) and the receiving=C2=A0 end generates RDI (r=
emote<br>
&gt; Defect Indicator).=C2=A0 Both messages are generated by the hardware, =
not by a<br>
&gt; software or ACP.=C2=A0 =C2=A0As a result of this failure,=C2=A0 there =
would be packet loss. The<br>
&gt; hardware counts these losses, an ACP does not.<br>
&gt; &gt; For the FM and PM functions above, can we say they are part of an=
 ACP?<br>
&gt; &gt; Thanks<br>
&gt; &gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbeh=
ring@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">mbehring@cisco.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:34 AM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: Toy, Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_blank">=
dromasca@avaya.com</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" =
target=3D"_blank">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>&#39;; &#39;anima-<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">chairs@tool=
s.ietf.org</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Hi Toy,<br>
&gt; &gt; To understand better: To me, fault management *uses* the function=
s of<br>
&gt; the AN infrastructure. It uses the ACP to communicate, maybe GRASP for=
<br>
&gt; some signalling, might be influenced by Intent, etc. Right?=C2=A0 So t=
o me, this is a<br>
&gt; logical component of an autonomic network that sits on top of the AN<b=
r>
&gt; infrastructure.<br>
&gt; &gt; Do we agree?<br>
&gt; &gt; Michael<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comc=
ast.com" target=3D"_blank">Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: 13 October 2015 23:46<br>
&gt; &gt; To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">mbehr=
ing@cisco.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D=
"_blank">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_blank">=
dromasca@avaya.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_blank">droma=
sca@avaya.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D=
"_blank">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">j=
iangsheng@huawei.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">ji=
angsheng@huawei.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" =
target=3D"_blank">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chair=
s@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;=
;<br>
&gt; &gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.car=
penter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;=
<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Michael,<br>
&gt; &gt; Appreciate the reply.<br>
&gt; &gt; FM is part of data plane and control plane (i.e. ANI in your diag=
ram).<br>
&gt; &gt; My plan is to add a short paragraph for now either to section 2 t=
o expand<br>
&gt; the description=C2=A0 of ANI or to section 4 to add a sub-section for =
Fault<br>
&gt; Management.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; It is also possible too add a Performance Management section to d=
escribe<br>
&gt; what types of measurements and where and how are used.=C2=A0 Although =
there<br>
&gt; is a control feedback related measurement in the document, I don=E2=80=
=99t know if<br>
&gt; it is adequate.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; &gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbeh=
ring@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">mbehring@cisco.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 12:27 PM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: Toy, Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_blank">=
dromasca@avaya.com</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" =
target=3D"_blank">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>&#39;; &#39;anima-<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">chairs@tool=
s.ietf.org</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Sorry for the delay, it=E2=80=99s very busy at the moment here.<b=
r>
&gt; &gt; To me, fault management refers generally to faults on the data pl=
ane, ie for<br>
&gt; user traffic. I see that happening at some point as an autonomic funct=
ion (or<br>
&gt; several, for different aspects). Would you agree? Or do you see that a=
s a<br>
&gt; function inside the AN infrastructure?<br>
&gt; &gt; So my feeling is that function would reside on top of the infrast=
ructure that<br>
&gt; we=E2=80=99re currently defining. So, please have a look whether your =
thoughts can<br>
&gt; be described as an autonomic function. I think they probably can.<br>
&gt; &gt; Then I suggest we do the same that we=E2=80=99re planning to do w=
ith the NMS<br>
&gt; section, the model discussion, etc: Have a short paragraph describe th=
e<br>
&gt; overall topic briefly, and point to an external doc for now, i.e., pro=
bably your<br>
&gt; draft.<br>
&gt; &gt; If you agree, can you suggest where in the reference model you wo=
uld add<br>
&gt; a short paragraph about fault management, and I suppose we=E2=80=99d p=
oint to your<br>
&gt; draft, right?<br>
&gt; &gt; Michael<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comc=
ast.com" target=3D"_blank">Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: 13 October 2015 03:53<br>
&gt; &gt; To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">mbehr=
ing@cisco.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D=
"_blank">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_blank">=
dromasca@avaya.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_blank">droma=
sca@avaya.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D=
"_blank">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">j=
iangsheng@huawei.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">ji=
angsheng@huawei.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" =
target=3D"_blank">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chair=
s@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;=
;<br>
&gt; &gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.car=
penter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;=
<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Mike,<br>
&gt; &gt; I am waiting for your response.<br>
&gt; &gt; Thanks<br>
&gt; &gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Toy, Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 8:13 PM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">=
mbehring@cisco.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_blank">=
dromasca@avaya.com</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" =
target=3D"_blank">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>&#39;; &#39;anima-<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">chairs@tool=
s.ietf.org</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Mike,<br>
&gt; &gt; I can send you some text to include in section 2 and 4 of=C2=A0 =
=E2=80=9CA Reference<br>
&gt; Model for Autonomic Networking,=C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-behringer-anima-refe=
rence-<br>
&gt; model-03=E2=80=9D,=C2=A0 per Sheng=E2=80=99s suggestion.<br>
&gt; &gt; Should I just do that?<br>
&gt; &gt; Thanks<br>
&gt; &gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Toy, Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 7:53 AM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tool=
s.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&#39;;<br>
&gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">=
brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco=
.com" target=3D"_blank">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_blank">=
dromasca@avaya.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Sheng,<br>
&gt; &gt; Appreciate a quick response.<br>
&gt; &gt; I will work on your suggestion.<br>
&gt; &gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com=
" target=3D"_blank">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 06:08 AM Eastern Standard Time<b=
r>
&gt; &gt; To: Toy, Mehmet;<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@to=
ols.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chair=
s@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;=
;<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">=
brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpent=
er@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.car=
penter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;=
;<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">mbehring@=
cisco.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">mbehr=
ing@cisco.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D=
"_blank">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)<br>
&gt; &gt; (<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_blank">dromasca=
@avaya.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&gt;)<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_blank">droma=
sca@avaya.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D=
"_blank">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Hi, Toy,<br>
&gt; &gt; First of all, for my understanding, your work is in the scope of =
the WG<br>
&gt; charter. However, we do not have work item or milestone for it. It loo=
ks like<br>
&gt; an upper-layer autonomic service agent for me. In our plan, autonomic<=
br>
&gt; service agents are mainly for the next period, which is after re-chart=
er (this is<br>
&gt; the same with your suggestion of modifying the charter, but it cannot<=
br>
&gt; happen until we deliver the current milestones). For now, the best may=
 be<br>
&gt; try to add some description, maybe mainly abstracted functionality, in=
to the<br>
&gt; reference model document.<br>
&gt; &gt; Best regards,<br>
&gt; &gt; Sheng<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comc=
ast.com" target=3D"_blank">Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 1:14 AM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chair=
s@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&gt;;<br=
>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">=
brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpent=
er@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">mbehring@=
cisco.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)<br>
&gt; &gt; (<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_blank">dromasca=
@avaya.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&gt;)<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Dear All:<br>
&gt; &gt; I couldn=E2=80=99t attend the Prague meeting, but luckily Dan was=
 able to present<br>
&gt; my slides on =E2=80=9CSelf-Managed Networks with Fault Management Hier=
archy=E2=80=9D.<br>
&gt; The feedback was to position the work in the ANIMA WG scope and<br>
&gt; framework.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; ANIMA charter in =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et. al., A Reference Mode=
l for Autonomic<br>
&gt; Networking<br>
&gt; &gt; draft-behringer-anima-reference-model-03=E2=80=9D refers to =E2=
=80=9Cself-healing=E2=80=9D.<br>
&gt; RFC7575,=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et al.,=C2=A0 =C2=A0Autonomic Ne=
tworking: Definitions and<br>
&gt; Design Goals=E2=80=9D,=C2=A0 refers to =E2=80=9Cself-management=E2=80=
=9D. However, both documents do<br>
&gt; not=C2=A0 articulate fault management aspect of the self-management.=
=C2=A0 It is<br>
&gt; possible to interpret the fault management aspect of autonomic network=
s as<br>
&gt; part of =E2=80=9Cself-healing=E2=80=9D and therefore as part of the AN=
IMA charter.=C2=A0 In that<br>
&gt; case, the =E2=80=9CArchitectural Framework for Self-Managed Networks w=
ith Fault<br>
&gt; Management Hierarchy, draft-mtoy-anima-self-faultmang-framework-<br>
&gt; 00.txt=E2=80=9D contribution can target to fill that gap.=C2=A0 The co=
ntrol plane aspect of<br>
&gt; self-healing is addressed by =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et al., An Autonom=
ic Control<br>
&gt; Plane, draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane-03=E2=80=9D.=C2=
=A0 I believe these<br>
&gt; contributions are complementary to each other. I can try to address th=
at in<br>
&gt; the contribution.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Please let me know if you agree with me. If not, I suggest to mod=
ify the<br>
&gt; charter since without covering fault management aspect of the autonomi=
c<br>
&gt; networks, the concept of autonomic network will be incomplete.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; &gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; Anima mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Anima@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Anima@ietf.org</a>=
<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Anima mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Anima@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Anima@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><br>
<br clear=3D"all">
<br>
-- </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,serif=
" lang=3D"EN-GB">Thank you very much for your time and consideration.</span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
<p style=3D"text-align:justify"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p style=3D"text-align:justify"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cambria&qu=
ot;,serif" lang=3D"EN-GB">Yours sincerely,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,serif" lang=3D"EN-GB">P R=
adha Krishna Reddy, M.Sc, M.Tech,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,serif" lang=3D"EN-GB">Jun=
ior Researcher/Ph.D Student,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,serif" lang=3D"EN-GB">COP=
E LABS, Universidade Lusofona, Lisboa - Portugal.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">Author of: Security Issues of C=
loud Computing over General &amp; IT Sector<br>
Mobile: <a href=3D"tel:%2B351923095671" target=3D"_blank">+351923095671</a>=
<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.prkreddy.webs.com" target=3D"_blank">www.prkreddy.web=
s.com</a> <br>
<a href=3D"http://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/" target=3D"_blank">htt=
p://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br clear=3D"all">
<br>
-- <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,serif=
">Thank you very much for your time and consideration.</span><u></u><u></u>=
</p>
<p style=3D"text-align:justify">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style=3D"text-align:justify"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cambria&qu=
ot;,serif">Yours sincerely,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,serif">P Radha Krishna Re=
ddy, M.Sc, M.Tech,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,serif">Junior Researcher/=
Ph.D Student,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,serif">COPE LABS, Univers=
idade Lusofona, Lisboa - Portugal.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Author of: Security Issues of Cloud Computing over G=
eneral &amp; IT Sector<br>
Mobile: <a href=3D"tel:%2B351923095671" target=3D"_blank">+351923095671</a>=
<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.prkreddy.webs.com" target=3D"_blank">www.prkreddy.web=
s.com</a> <br>
<a href=3D"http://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/" target=3D"_blank">htt=
p://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br clear=3D"all">
<br>
-- <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,serif=
">Thank you very much for your time and consideration.</span><u></u><u></u>=
</p>
<p style=3D"text-align:justify"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p style=3D"text-align:justify"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cambria&qu=
ot;,serif">Yours sincerely,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,serif">P Radha Krishna Re=
ddy, M.Sc, M.Tech,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,serif">Junior Researcher/=
Ph.D Student,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,serif">COPE LABS, Univers=
idade Lusofona, Lisboa - Portugal.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Author of: Security Issues of Cloud Computing over G=
eneral &amp; IT Sector<br>
Mobile: <a href=3D"tel:%2B351923095671" value=3D"+351923095671" target=3D"_=
blank">+351923095671</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://www.prkreddy.webs.com" target=3D"_blank">www.prkreddy.web=
s.com</a> <br>
<a href=3D"http://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/" target=3D"_blank">htt=
p://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail_sig=
nature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><span =
style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,=
&quot;serif&quot;">Thank you very much for your time and
consideration.</span><p style=3D"text-align:justify"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,&quot;serif&quot=
;"><br></span></p>

<p style=3D"text-align:justify;line-height:normal"><span style=3D"font-size=
:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Yours sincerely,=
</span></p>

<p style=3D"line-height:normal;text-align:left"><span style=3D"font-size:12=
.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">P Radha Krishna Red=
dy, M.Sc, M.Tech,<br></span></p><p style=3D"line-height:normal;text-align:l=
eft"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,&quot;=
serif&quot;">Junior Researcher/Ph.D Student,</span></p><p style=3D"line-hei=
ght:normal;text-align:left"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Cambria&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">COPE LABS, Universidade Lusofona, Lisbo=
a - Portugal.<br></span></p>

Author of: Security Issues of Cloud Computing over General &amp; IT Sector<=
br>Mobile: +351923095671<br><a>www.prkreddy.webs.com</a> <br><a href=3D"htt=
p://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/" target=3D"_blank">http://pt.linkedi=
n.com/in/reddypallavali/</a><br></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>

--089e0112c50ce8911d052262ce17--


From nobody Sun Oct 18 12:14:46 2015
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To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" <eckert@cisco.com>, John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com>, "Toy, Mehmet" <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>
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From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 08:14:34 +1300
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
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On 18/10/2015 14:17, Joel M. Halpern wrote:
> I see two ways to looking at this.
> One way, which is I think what Toerless is suggesting, is that being able to dynamically install ASAs into devices dramatically
> increases the power of the autonomic data plane.

Exactly. The idea is that a programmer who is an expert in topic X should be able
to write an ASA for topic X without needing to know the fine details of either
the ACP or GRASP. That's why I'm spending some of my time on a topic that the IETF
is popularly supposed to avoid: the API that an ASA-writer will use to access
the autonomic infrastructure.

> 
> The converse is that if Anima requires replacement of the OS on all devices in the environment, then I confidently predict
> failure of our effort.

Agreed. ASAs are management entities and should not be needed in every device.

    Brian

> 
> Yours,
> Joel
> 
> On 10/17/15 9:02 PM, Toerless Eckert (eckert) wrote:
>> Of course, being easily in@tallable and uninstallable does not make the
>> majorities of android/ios apps useful, but if ios/android only had
>> preinstalled software and you had to upgrade the os to get other apps -
>> those os would not exist.
>>
>> I dont understand how router vendor os survive without that concept, and
>> if at all possible id like to make  sure we do worry about aspects like
>> these to nmake the autonomic vision operationally successful.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my Samsung Captivate Glide on AT&T
>>
>> John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Toerless wrote:
>>
>>  > 1) easily, ideally autonomous downloadable agent/application infra.
>> <jcs>
>> Frankly, I've never thought of that. However, I'm not sure that this is a
>> complete answer. Without specifications that define how the agents
>> and app infrastructure are built, how they communicate, etc., I don't
>> see how this works. So shouldn't the ANIMA WG build those specs?
>>
>> Just because something can be downloaded and deployed doesn't
>> mean it is useful. Remember the disaster that was Active Networks,
>> which set AI in networking back two decades.
>> </jcs>
>>
>> Mehmet wrote:
>>
>> MT: What I propose is unlikely to be done completely just by autonomic
>> agents or software, but can be partially done by autonomic agents.  This
>> is the key reason for these email exchanges.
>> <jcs>
>> You lost me. If it isn't software, then it must be hardware. I like ASICs
>> and FPGAs, but they can't do everything, especially in an adaptive
>> environment. Please elaborate more.
>> </jcs>
>>
>>   ...
>>
>> Mehmet wrote:
>> MT: In general I am not in favor of defining another control layer for
>> this purposes. Therefore, my proposed design  does not need and does not
>> have a protocol for communications.
>> <jcs>
>> Then how do different autonomic elements find each other and form
>> themselves into a group that can do something useful?
>> </jcs>
>> ...
>>
>> regards,
>> John
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Toy, Mehmet
>> <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com <mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     Toerless,
>>     Please see below.
>>     Thanks
>>     Mehmet
>>
>>     -----Original Message-----
>>     From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:eckert@cisco.com
>>     <mailto:eckert@cisco.com>]
>>     Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:16 PM
>>     To: Toy, Mehmet
>>     Cc: anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org
>>     <mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>; brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com
>>     <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>; mbehring@cisco.com
>>     <mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>; Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
>>     (dromasca@avaya.com <mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>)
>>     Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks
>>
>>     Toy:
>>
>>     Unless you feel its more appropriate to keep this discussion in this
>>     closed mailing list, i would suggest to have it on the anima mailing
>>     list.
>>
>>     First off: You've compressed really a lot of crucial arch design
>>     from your detailed first slidedeck into this a lot more pithy, yet
>>     comprehensive first draft. I think my main concern is how we can
>>     work on the SW engineering aspects of how to build it and build upon
>>     the anima infrastructure.
>>
>>     I think i did ask you some IETFs ago when you presented your slides,
>>     that it would be good if we could focus on that aspect.
>>
>>     Eg: Could we add a section to the document outlining a summary of
>>     how this framework would leverage and benefit from the the currently
>>     planned anima infrastructure - why/ how to use it - so we know the
>>     requirements we have, especially if those are any we would need to
>>     consider during recharter.
>>     MT: As you can see from my previous email, I am not on board with
>>     current architectural definitions.  Once we are sync on the
>>     definitions of architectural components, I should make an attempt to
>>     address your concerns.
>>
>>     If you'd ask me, primarily as a contributor considering what would
>>     best help to make this happen - and move ANIMA forward, i think the
>>     key aspects are:
>>
>>     1) easily, ideally autonomous downloadable agent/application infra.
>>
>>     Eg: I don't see any way that either vendors or operators could
>>     realistically build this framework if these components are tied into
>>     the classical router OS software delivery model where it takes
>>     months to validate a sofftware update and more months to deploy it.
>>     If this can be downloaded, as separate apps then its so much easier
>>     to incrementally build/deploy it on a totally different deployment
>>     process.
>>
>>     How exactly should this be done so operators like comcast will most
>>     likely start incrementally deploying this ?
>>
>>     Eg: I am sure autonomic agents will be the next re-charter item, the
>>     functionality you describe for fault-management via such agents is
>>     great, and i can see how that is just good work to refine, so i am
>>     mostly worred about the sW-engineering and operational aspects of
>>     such autonomic agents.
>>
>>     MT: What I propose is unlikely to be done completely just by
>>     autonomic agents or software, but can be partially done by autonomic
>>     agents.  This is the key reason for these email exchanges.
>>
>>     2) Clear APIs to existing router operations.
>>
>>     We would need to have an idea how these new components would talk to
>>     the rest of the router. This seems like an eay "oh, we can have
>>     those agents do 30 year old router CLI locally, but we'd prefer
>>     Netconf/Yang with IETF standardized models, and we do need the
>>     following yang models for the first important FP operations". There
>>     is also talk about expanding into Thrift for higher performance data
>>     collection (beyond netconf, still with yang).
>>
>>     MT: Agree, but we are far from these steps.  We have to agree on the
>>     fundamentals.
>>     3) connectivity between the agents.
>>
>>     This is primarily where at the lowest layer the ACP would come in
>>     and it would be great to see argument if/how security, zero-touch
>>     build-up and indestructibility are required and/or beneficial for
>>     these agents functions.  You already mention the security aspect in
>>     your security section. Great.
>>
>>     Next layer is leveraging GRASP as a protocol for agent-to-agent
>>     communication. Is it feasible/beneficial to expect a common new
>>     message signaling layer with GRAP ? If so, it would be great to
>>     describee why and how. Eg: what communication patterns would your
>>     agents have, do the patterns GRASP support suit your agents ?
>>     MT: In general I am not in favor of defining another control layer
>>     for this purposes. Therefore, my proposed design  does not need and
>>     does not have a protocol for communications.
>>
>>     Your section 7 already has one specific layer of message
>>     communicartions, but it is directly tied to ethernet frame. I'd like
>>     to understand this better. I for once would think one would define
>>     for the message eleemnts a Yang/CBOR data model "failure management
>>     yang model". Then we look how to carry it. agent-to-agent, i would
>>     propose to actually run over GRASP (using CBOR representation of
>>     course), but to humans behind an NMS its more likely via
>>     netconf/yang from an agent into the NMS.
>>     MT: Ethernet frame is just an example. We can collectively decide to
>>     have something else. The key point here is to have one message
>>     format for all FM related communications.
>>
>>     There may be other aspects, but if this makes sense to you, it would
>>     be great if we could get such a section added. Let me know if you
>>     need any help with that.
>>     MT: Appreciate the offer. Again we need to sync up on the
>>     fundamentals first.
>>
>>     Cheers
>>          Toerless
>>
>>     On Mon, Oct 05, 2015 at 05:14:19PM +0000, Toy, Mehmet wrote:
>>      > Dear All:
>>      > I couldn't attend the Prague meeting, but luckily Dan was able to
>>     present my slides on "Self-Managed Networks with Fault Management
>>     Hierarchy".   The feedback was to position the work in the ANIMA WG
>>     scope and framework.
>>      >
>>      > ANIMA charter in "M. Behringer, et. al., A Reference Model for
>>     Autonomic Networking
>>      > draft-behringer-anima-reference-model-03" refers to
>>     "self-healing".  RFC7575,  "M. Behringer, et al.,   Autonomic
>>     Networking: Definitions and Design Goals",  refers to
>>     "self-management". However, both documents do not  articulate fault
>>     management aspect of the self-management.  It is possible to
>>     interpret the fault management aspect of autonomic networks as part
>>     of "self-healing" and therefore as part of the ANIMA charter.  In
>>     that case, the "Architectural Framework for Self-Managed Networks
>>     with Fault Management Hierarchy,
>>     draft-mtoy-anima-self-faultmang-framework-00.txt" contribution can
>>     target to fill that gap.  The control plane aspect of self-healing
>>     is addressed by "M. Behringer, et al., An Autonomic Control Plane,
>>     draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane-03". I believe these
>>     contributions are complementary to each other. I can try to address
>>     that in the contribution.
>>      >
>>      > Please let me know if you agree with me. If not, I suggest to
>>     modify the charter since without covering fault management aspect of
>>     the autonomic networks, the concept of autonomic network will be
>>     incomplete.
>>      >
>>      > Regards,
>>      > Mehmet
>>      >
>>      >
>>
>>     --
>>     ---
>>     Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com <mailto:eckert@cisco.com>
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     Anima mailing list
>>     Anima@ietf.org <mailto:Anima@ietf.org>
>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> regards,
>> John
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> .
> 


From nobody Sun Oct 18 12:28:00 2015
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To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" <eckert@cisco.com>, John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com>, "Toy, Mehmet" <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>
References: <9accdec6dd894df6afed38215b28b494@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <20151014231557.GA13294@cisco.com> <5fe9c36320aa4921b12eb0279463d2cb@VAADCEX37.cable.comcast.com> <CAJwYUrGKdk1ywkGcUV7JO+ArTCGYMm=R3voNoOfGe5+0pmxPgg@mail.gmail.com> <db3pj962kuhreh9qlbsvy2kh.1445129845742@email.android.com> <5622F347.1040906@joelhalpern.com> <5623EF9A.6080403@gmail.com>
From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 15:27:53 -0400
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Cc: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\) \(dromasca@avaya.com\)" <dromasca@avaya.com>, "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" <mbehring@cisco.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
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Maybe I phrased my concern in a confusing fashion.
If adding Anima (ASA) capabilities to a device requires a complete 
rewrite of the operating system, that will be a serious impediment to 
deployment.

Adding APIs to existing routers to support Anima capabilities is quite 
achievable.  Adding download capabilities to add software to existing 
network elements has been done, and can be expanded upon.  Defining the 
API seems sensible.  defining the mechanism for installing new software 
components is WAY outside the IETF expertise (although the mechanism to 
communicate the component, and signatures on the component, are things 
well within IETF scope, but probably outside of the charter for Anima.)

The note I was responding to was a claim that we can't add ASAs to 
existing routers unless we replace the OS.  If that is true, I see major 
challenges.  Even white-box packet handlers have OS that in practice are 
pretty similar to those in commercial bridges and routers.

Yours,
Joel

On 10/18/15 3:14 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> On 18/10/2015 14:17, Joel M. Halpern wrote:
>> I see two ways to looking at this.
>> One way, which is I think what Toerless is suggesting, is that being able to dynamically install ASAs into devices dramatically
>> increases the power of the autonomic data plane.
>
> Exactly. The idea is that a programmer who is an expert in topic X should be able
> to write an ASA for topic X without needing to know the fine details of either
> the ACP or GRASP. That's why I'm spending some of my time on a topic that the IETF
> is popularly supposed to avoid: the API that an ASA-writer will use to access
> the autonomic infrastructure.
>
>>
>> The converse is that if Anima requires replacement of the OS on all devices in the environment, then I confidently predict
>> failure of our effort.
>
> Agreed. ASAs are management entities and should not be needed in every device.
>
>      Brian
>
>>
>> Yours,
>> Joel
>>
>> On 10/17/15 9:02 PM, Toerless Eckert (eckert) wrote:
>>> Of course, being easily in@tallable and uninstallable does not make the
>>> majorities of android/ios apps useful, but if ios/android only had
>>> preinstalled software and you had to upgrade the os to get other apps -
>>> those os would not exist.
>>>
>>> I dont understand how router vendor os survive without that concept, and
>>> if at all possible id like to make  sure we do worry about aspects like
>>> these to nmake the autonomic vision operationally successful.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my Samsung Captivate Glide on AT&T
>>>
>>> John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> Toerless wrote:
>>>
>>>   > 1) easily, ideally autonomous downloadable agent/application infra.
>>> <jcs>
>>> Frankly, I've never thought of that. However, I'm not sure that this is a
>>> complete answer. Without specifications that define how the agents
>>> and app infrastructure are built, how they communicate, etc., I don't
>>> see how this works. So shouldn't the ANIMA WG build those specs?
>>>
>>> Just because something can be downloaded and deployed doesn't
>>> mean it is useful. Remember the disaster that was Active Networks,
>>> which set AI in networking back two decades.
>>> </jcs>
>>>
>>> Mehmet wrote:
>>>
>>> MT: What I propose is unlikely to be done completely just by autonomic
>>> agents or software, but can be partially done by autonomic agents.  This
>>> is the key reason for these email exchanges.
>>> <jcs>
>>> You lost me. If it isn't software, then it must be hardware. I like ASICs
>>> and FPGAs, but they can't do everything, especially in an adaptive
>>> environment. Please elaborate more.
>>> </jcs>
>>>
>>>    ...
>>>
>>> Mehmet wrote:
>>> MT: In general I am not in favor of defining another control layer for
>>> this purposes. Therefore, my proposed design  does not need and does not
>>> have a protocol for communications.
>>> <jcs>
>>> Then how do different autonomic elements find each other and form
>>> themselves into a group that can do something useful?
>>> </jcs>
>>> ...
>>>
>>> regards,
>>> John
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Toy, Mehmet
>>> <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com <mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>      Toerless,
>>>      Please see below.
>>>      Thanks
>>>      Mehmet
>>>
>>>      -----Original Message-----
>>>      From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:eckert@cisco.com
>>>      <mailto:eckert@cisco.com>]
>>>      Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:16 PM
>>>      To: Toy, Mehmet
>>>      Cc: anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org
>>>      <mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>; brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com
>>>      <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>; mbehring@cisco.com
>>>      <mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>; Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
>>>      (dromasca@avaya.com <mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>)
>>>      Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks
>>>
>>>      Toy:
>>>
>>>      Unless you feel its more appropriate to keep this discussion in this
>>>      closed mailing list, i would suggest to have it on the anima mailing
>>>      list.
>>>
>>>      First off: You've compressed really a lot of crucial arch design
>>>      from your detailed first slidedeck into this a lot more pithy, yet
>>>      comprehensive first draft. I think my main concern is how we can
>>>      work on the SW engineering aspects of how to build it and build upon
>>>      the anima infrastructure.
>>>
>>>      I think i did ask you some IETFs ago when you presented your slides,
>>>      that it would be good if we could focus on that aspect.
>>>
>>>      Eg: Could we add a section to the document outlining a summary of
>>>      how this framework would leverage and benefit from the the currently
>>>      planned anima infrastructure - why/ how to use it - so we know the
>>>      requirements we have, especially if those are any we would need to
>>>      consider during recharter.
>>>      MT: As you can see from my previous email, I am not on board with
>>>      current architectural definitions.  Once we are sync on the
>>>      definitions of architectural components, I should make an attempt to
>>>      address your concerns.
>>>
>>>      If you'd ask me, primarily as a contributor considering what would
>>>      best help to make this happen - and move ANIMA forward, i think the
>>>      key aspects are:
>>>
>>>      1) easily, ideally autonomous downloadable agent/application infra.
>>>
>>>      Eg: I don't see any way that either vendors or operators could
>>>      realistically build this framework if these components are tied into
>>>      the classical router OS software delivery model where it takes
>>>      months to validate a sofftware update and more months to deploy it.
>>>      If this can be downloaded, as separate apps then its so much easier
>>>      to incrementally build/deploy it on a totally different deployment
>>>      process.
>>>
>>>      How exactly should this be done so operators like comcast will most
>>>      likely start incrementally deploying this ?
>>>
>>>      Eg: I am sure autonomic agents will be the next re-charter item, the
>>>      functionality you describe for fault-management via such agents is
>>>      great, and i can see how that is just good work to refine, so i am
>>>      mostly worred about the sW-engineering and operational aspects of
>>>      such autonomic agents.
>>>
>>>      MT: What I propose is unlikely to be done completely just by
>>>      autonomic agents or software, but can be partially done by autonomic
>>>      agents.  This is the key reason for these email exchanges.
>>>
>>>      2) Clear APIs to existing router operations.
>>>
>>>      We would need to have an idea how these new components would talk to
>>>      the rest of the router. This seems like an eay "oh, we can have
>>>      those agents do 30 year old router CLI locally, but we'd prefer
>>>      Netconf/Yang with IETF standardized models, and we do need the
>>>      following yang models for the first important FP operations". There
>>>      is also talk about expanding into Thrift for higher performance data
>>>      collection (beyond netconf, still with yang).
>>>
>>>      MT: Agree, but we are far from these steps.  We have to agree on the
>>>      fundamentals.
>>>      3) connectivity between the agents.
>>>
>>>      This is primarily where at the lowest layer the ACP would come in
>>>      and it would be great to see argument if/how security, zero-touch
>>>      build-up and indestructibility are required and/or beneficial for
>>>      these agents functions.  You already mention the security aspect in
>>>      your security section. Great.
>>>
>>>      Next layer is leveraging GRASP as a protocol for agent-to-agent
>>>      communication. Is it feasible/beneficial to expect a common new
>>>      message signaling layer with GRAP ? If so, it would be great to
>>>      describee why and how. Eg: what communication patterns would your
>>>      agents have, do the patterns GRASP support suit your agents ?
>>>      MT: In general I am not in favor of defining another control layer
>>>      for this purposes. Therefore, my proposed design  does not need and
>>>      does not have a protocol for communications.
>>>
>>>      Your section 7 already has one specific layer of message
>>>      communicartions, but it is directly tied to ethernet frame. I'd like
>>>      to understand this better. I for once would think one would define
>>>      for the message eleemnts a Yang/CBOR data model "failure management
>>>      yang model". Then we look how to carry it. agent-to-agent, i would
>>>      propose to actually run over GRASP (using CBOR representation of
>>>      course), but to humans behind an NMS its more likely via
>>>      netconf/yang from an agent into the NMS.
>>>      MT: Ethernet frame is just an example. We can collectively decide to
>>>      have something else. The key point here is to have one message
>>>      format for all FM related communications.
>>>
>>>      There may be other aspects, but if this makes sense to you, it would
>>>      be great if we could get such a section added. Let me know if you
>>>      need any help with that.
>>>      MT: Appreciate the offer. Again we need to sync up on the
>>>      fundamentals first.
>>>
>>>      Cheers
>>>           Toerless
>>>
>>>      On Mon, Oct 05, 2015 at 05:14:19PM +0000, Toy, Mehmet wrote:
>>>       > Dear All:
>>>       > I couldn't attend the Prague meeting, but luckily Dan was able to
>>>      present my slides on "Self-Managed Networks with Fault Management
>>>      Hierarchy".   The feedback was to position the work in the ANIMA WG
>>>      scope and framework.
>>>       >
>>>       > ANIMA charter in "M. Behringer, et. al., A Reference Model for
>>>      Autonomic Networking
>>>       > draft-behringer-anima-reference-model-03" refers to
>>>      "self-healing".  RFC7575,  "M. Behringer, et al.,   Autonomic
>>>      Networking: Definitions and Design Goals",  refers to
>>>      "self-management". However, both documents do not  articulate fault
>>>      management aspect of the self-management.  It is possible to
>>>      interpret the fault management aspect of autonomic networks as part
>>>      of "self-healing" and therefore as part of the ANIMA charter.  In
>>>      that case, the "Architectural Framework for Self-Managed Networks
>>>      with Fault Management Hierarchy,
>>>      draft-mtoy-anima-self-faultmang-framework-00.txt" contribution can
>>>      target to fill that gap.  The control plane aspect of self-healing
>>>      is addressed by "M. Behringer, et al., An Autonomic Control Plane,
>>>      draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane-03". I believe these
>>>      contributions are complementary to each other. I can try to address
>>>      that in the contribution.
>>>       >
>>>       > Please let me know if you agree with me. If not, I suggest to
>>>      modify the charter since without covering fault management aspect of
>>>      the autonomic networks, the concept of autonomic network will be
>>>      incomplete.
>>>       >
>>>       > Regards,
>>>       > Mehmet
>>>       >
>>>       >
>>>
>>>      --
>>>      ---
>>>      Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com <mailto:eckert@cisco.com>
>>>
>>>      _______________________________________________
>>>      Anima mailing list
>>>      Anima@ietf.org <mailto:Anima@ietf.org>
>>>      https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> regards,
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Anima mailing list
>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>> .
>>


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From: John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
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Hi Mehmet,

you lost me. I don't see how your response answers any of the 3 points I
made.

regards,
John

On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 8:13 AM, Toy, Mehmet <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>
wrote:

> John,
>
> As I mentioned in my previous email, the reference model for Autonomic
> Networking is the model for auto routing and auto-discovery of nodes.
>
> There are FM and PM that can be associated with these functions(i.e. FM an
> d PM for ACP), but there are FM and PM associated with infrastructure. For
> example, FM and PM associated with policing, queuing, hardware redundancy,
> link redundancy (i.e.LAG/LACP), etc.
>
>
>
> I am not sure how we can model non-ACP related FM and PM as part of
> autonomous agents above ACP.
>
>
>
> I feel that Autonomic Networks (Self-Managed Networks) must be defined
> beyond routing and discovery, although it could be OK as an initial scope.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mehmet
>
>
>
> *From:* John Strassner [mailto:strazpdj@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Saturday, October 17, 2015 2:58 PM
> *To:* Toy, Mehmet; John Strassner; Toerless Eckert
> *Cc:* Romascanu, Dan (Dan) (dromasca@avaya.com); mbehring@cisco.com;
> anima@ietf.org; anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> Toerless wrote:
>
>
>
> > 1) easily, ideally autonomous downloadable agent/application infra.
>
> <jcs>
>
> Frankly, I've never thought of that. However, I'm not sure that this is a
>
> complete answer. Without specifications that define how the agents
>
> and app infrastructure are built, how they communicate, etc., I don't
>
> see how this works. So shouldn't the ANIMA WG build those specs?
>
>
>
> Just because something can be downloaded and deployed doesn't
>
> mean it is useful. Remember the disaster that was Active Networks,
>
> which set AI in networking back two decades.
>
> </jcs>
>
>
>
> Mehmet wrote:
>
>
>
> MT: What I propose is unlikely to be done completely just by autonomic
> agents or software, but can be partially done by autonomic agents.  This is
> the key reason for these email exchanges.
>
> <jcs>
>
> You lost me. If it isn't software, then it must be hardware. I like ASICs
>
> and FPGAs, but they can't do everything, especially in an adaptive
>
> environment. Please elaborate more.
>
> </jcs>
>
>  ...
>
>
>
> Mehmet wrote:
>
> MT: In general I am not in favor of defining another control layer for
> this purposes. Therefore, my proposed design  does not need and does not
> have a protocol for communications.
>
> <jcs>
>
> Then how do different autonomic elements find each other and form
>
> themselves into a group that can do something useful?
>
> </jcs>
>
> ...
>
>
>
> regards,
>
> John
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Toy, Mehmet <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>
> wrote:
>
> Toerless,
> Please see below.
> Thanks
> Mehmet
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:eckert@cisco.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:16 PM
> To: Toy, Mehmet
> Cc: anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org; brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com;
> mbehring@cisco.com; Romascanu, Dan (Dan) (dromasca@avaya.com)
> Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks
>
> Toy:
>
> Unless you feel its more appropriate to keep this discussion in this
> closed mailing list, i would suggest to have it on the anima mailing list.
>
> First off: You've compressed really a lot of crucial arch design from your
> detailed first slidedeck into this a lot more pithy, yet comprehensive
> first draft. I think my main concern is how we can work on the SW
> engineering aspects of how to build it and build upon the anima
> infrastructure.
>
> I think i did ask you some IETFs ago when you presented your slides, that
> it would be good if we could focus on that aspect.
>
> Eg: Could we add a section to the document outlining a summary of how this
> framework would leverage and benefit from the the currently planned anima
> infrastructure - why/ how to use it - so we know the requirements we have,
> especially if those are any we would need to consider during recharter.
> MT: As you can see from my previous email, I am not on board with current
> architectural definitions.  Once we are sync on the definitions of
> architectural components, I should make an attempt to address your concerns.
>
> If you'd ask me, primarily as a contributor considering what would best
> help to make this happen - and move ANIMA forward, i think the key aspects
> are:
>
> 1) easily, ideally autonomous downloadable agent/application infra.
>
> Eg: I don't see any way that either vendors or operators could
> realistically build this framework if these components are tied into the
> classical router OS software delivery model where it takes months to
> validate a sofftware update and more months to deploy it. If this can be
> downloaded, as separate apps then its so much easier to incrementally
> build/deploy it on a totally different deployment process.
>
> How exactly should this be done so operators like comcast will most likely
> start incrementally deploying this ?
>
> Eg: I am sure autonomic agents will be the next re-charter item, the
> functionality you describe for fault-management via such agents is great,
> and i can see how that is just good work to refine, so i am mostly worred
> about the sW-engineering and operational aspects of such autonomic agents.
>
> MT: What I propose is unlikely to be done completely just by autonomic
> agents or software, but can be partially done by autonomic agents.  This is
> the key reason for these email exchanges.
>
> 2) Clear APIs to existing router operations.
>
> We would need to have an idea how these new components would talk to the
> rest of the router. This seems like an eay "oh, we can have those agents do
> 30 year old router CLI locally, but we'd prefer Netconf/Yang with IETF
> standardized models, and we do need the following yang models for the first
> important FP operations". There is also talk about expanding into Thrift
> for higher performance data collection (beyond netconf, still with yang).
>
> MT: Agree, but we are far from these steps.  We have to agree on the
> fundamentals.
> 3) connectivity between the agents.
>
> This is primarily where at the lowest layer the ACP would come in and it
> would be great to see argument if/how security, zero-touch build-up and
> indestructibility are required and/or beneficial for these agents
> functions.  You already mention the security aspect in your security
> section. Great.
>
> Next layer is leveraging GRASP as a protocol for agent-to-agent
> communication. Is it feasible/beneficial to expect a common new message
> signaling layer with GRAP ? If so, it would be great to describee why and
> how. Eg: what communication patterns would your agents have, do the
> patterns GRASP support suit your agents ?
> MT: In general I am not in favor of defining another control layer for
> this purposes. Therefore, my proposed design  does not need and does not
> have a protocol for communications.
>
> Your section 7 already has one specific layer of message communicartions,
> but it is directly tied to ethernet frame. I'd like to understand this
> better. I for once would think one would define for the message eleemnts a
> Yang/CBOR data model "failure management yang model". Then we look how to
> carry it. agent-to-agent, i would propose to actually run over GRASP (using
> CBOR representation of course), but to humans behind an NMS its more likely
> via netconf/yang from an agent into the NMS.
> MT: Ethernet frame is just an example. We can collectively decide to have
> something else. The key point here is to have one message format for all FM
> related communications.
>
> There may be other aspects, but if this makes sense to you, it would be
> great if we could get such a section added. Let me know if you need any
> help with that.
> MT: Appreciate the offer. Again we need to sync up on the fundamentals
> first.
>
> Cheers
>     Toerless
>
> On Mon, Oct 05, 2015 at 05:14:19PM +0000, Toy, Mehmet wrote:
> > Dear All:
> > I couldn't attend the Prague meeting, but luckily Dan was able to
> present my slides on "Self-Managed Networks with Fault Management
> Hierarchy".   The feedback was to position the work in the ANIMA WG scope
> and framework.
> >
> > ANIMA charter in "M. Behringer, et. al., A Reference Model for Autonomic
> Networking
> > draft-behringer-anima-reference-model-03" refers to "self-healing".
> RFC7575,  "M. Behringer, et al.,   Autonomic Networking: Definitions and
> Design Goals",  refers to "self-management". However, both documents do
> not  articulate fault management aspect of the self-management.  It is
> possible to interpret the fault management aspect of autonomic networks as
> part of "self-healing" and therefore as part of the ANIMA charter.  In that
> case, the "Architectural Framework for Self-Managed Networks with Fault
> Management Hierarchy, draft-mtoy-anima-self-faultmang-framework-00.txt"
> contribution can target to fill that gap.  The control plane aspect of
> self-healing is addressed by "M. Behringer, et al., An Autonomic Control
> Plane, draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane-03".  I believe these
> contributions are complementary to each other. I can try to address that in
> the contribution.
> >
> > Please let me know if you agree with me. If not, I suggest to modify the
> charter since without covering fault management aspect of the autonomic
> networks, the concept of autonomic network will be incomplete.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Mehmet
> >
> >
>
> --
> ---
> Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> regards,
>
> John
>



-- 
regards,
John

--001a1143a8620d72550522687cdc
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi Mehmet,</div><div><br></div><div>you lost me. I do=
n&#39;t see how your response answers any of the 3 points I made.</div><div=
><br></div><div>regards,</div><div>John</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extr=
a"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 8:13 AM, Toy, Meh=
met <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #c=
cc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" vlink=3D"purple" link=3D"blue">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;font-size:11pt">John,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;font-size:11pt">As I mentioned in my previous em=
ail, the reference model for Autonomic Networking is the model for auto rou=
ting and auto-discovery of nodes.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;font-size:11pt">There are FM and PM that can be =
associated with these functions(i.e. FM an d PM for ACP), but there are FM =
and PM associated with infrastructure. For example,
 FM and PM associated with policing, queuing, hardware redundancy, link red=
undancy (i.e.LAG/LACP), etc.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;font-size:11pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;font-size:11pt">I am not sure how we can model n=
on-ACP related FM and PM as part of autonomous agents above ACP.<u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;font-size:11pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;font-size:11pt">I feel that Autonomic Networks (=
Self-Managed Networks) must be defined beyond routing and discovery, althou=
gh it could be OK as an initial scope.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;font-size:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;font-size:11pt">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;font-size:11pt">Mehmet<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;font-size:11pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:11pt">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;font-size:11pt"> John Strassner [mailto:<a href=3D"=
mailto:strazpdj@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">strazpdj@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, October 17, 2015 2:58 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Toy, Mehmet; John Strassner; Toerless Eckert<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Romascanu, Dan (Dan) (<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">dromasca@avaya.com</a>); <a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com=
" target=3D"_blank">mbehring@cisco.com</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:anima@ietf.or=
g" target=3D"_blank">anima@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@too=
ls.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi all,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Toerless wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt; 1) easily, ideally autonomous downloadable agen=
t/application infra.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&lt;jcs&gt;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Frankly, I&#39;ve never thought of that. However, I&=
#39;m not sure that this is a<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">complete answer.=C2=A0Without specifications that de=
fine how the agents<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">and app infrastructure are built, how they communica=
te, etc., I don&#39;t<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">see how this works. So shouldn&#39;t the ANIMA WG bu=
ild those specs?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Just because something can be downloaded and deploye=
d doesn&#39;t
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">mean it=C2=A0is useful. Remember the disaster that w=
as Active Networks,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">which set AI in networking back two decades.<u></u><=
u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&lt;/jcs&gt;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Mehmet wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">MT: What I propose is unlikely to be done completely=
 just by autonomic agents or software, but can be partially done by autonom=
ic agents.=C2=A0 This is the key reason for these email exchanges.<u></u><u=
></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&lt;jcs&gt;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">You lost me.=C2=A0If it isn&#39;t software, then it =
must be hardware. I like ASICs<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">and FPGAs, but they can&#39;t do everything, especia=
lly in an adaptive<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">environment. Please elaborate more.<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&lt;/jcs&gt;<br>
<br>
=C2=A0...<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Mehmet wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">MT: In general I am not in favor of defining another=
 control layer for this purposes. Therefore, my proposed design=C2=A0 does =
not need and does not have a protocol for communications.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&lt;jcs&gt;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Then how do different autonomic elements find each o=
ther and form<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">themselves into a group that can do something useful=
?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&lt;/jcs&gt;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">...<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">John<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Toy, Mehmet &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com" target=3D"_blank">Mehmet_Toy@c=
able.comcast.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;border-style:non=
e none none solid;border-color:currentColor currentColor currentColor rgb(2=
04,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-right:0in;margin-left:4.8pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Toerless,<br>
Please see below.<br>
Thanks<br>
Mehmet<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:eckert@cisco.com" target=3D=
"_blank">eckert@cisco.com</a>]<br>
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:16 PM<br>
To: Toy, Mehmet<br>
Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">anima-=
chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">brian.e.ca=
rpenter@gmail.com</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">
mbehring@cisco.com</a>; Romascanu, Dan (Dan) (<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@av=
aya.com" target=3D"_blank">dromasca@avaya.com</a>)<br>
Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks<br>
<br>
Toy:<br>
<br>
Unless you feel its more appropriate to keep this discussion in this closed=
 mailing list, i would suggest to have it on the anima mailing list.<br>
<br>
First off: You&#39;ve compressed really a lot of crucial arch design from y=
our detailed first slidedeck into this a lot more pithy, yet comprehensive =
first draft. I think my main concern is how we can work on the SW engineeri=
ng aspects of how to build it and build
 upon the anima infrastructure.<br>
<br>
I think i did ask you some IETFs ago when you presented your slides, that i=
t would be good if we could focus on that aspect.<br>
<br>
Eg: Could we add a section to the document outlining a summary of how this =
framework would leverage and benefit from the the currently planned anima i=
nfrastructure - why/ how to use it - so we know the requirements we have, e=
specially if those are any we would
 need to consider during recharter.<br>
MT: As you can see from my previous email, I am not on board with current a=
rchitectural definitions.=C2=A0 Once we are sync on the definitions of arch=
itectural components, I should make an attempt to address your concerns.<br=
>
<br>
If you&#39;d ask me, primarily as a contributor considering what would best=
 help to make this happen - and move ANIMA forward, i think the key aspects=
 are:<br>
<br>
1) easily, ideally autonomous downloadable agent/application infra.<br>
<br>
Eg: I don&#39;t see any way that either vendors or operators could realisti=
cally build this framework if these components are tied into the classical =
router OS software delivery model where it takes months to validate a sofft=
ware update and more months to deploy
 it. If this can be downloaded, as separate apps then its so much easier to=
 incrementally build/deploy it on a totally different deployment process.<b=
r>
<br>
How exactly should this be done so operators like comcast will most likely =
start incrementally deploying this ?<br>
<br>
Eg: I am sure autonomic agents will be the next re-charter item, the functi=
onality you describe for fault-management via such agents is great, and i c=
an see how that is just good work to refine, so i am mostly worred about th=
e sW-engineering and operational
 aspects of such autonomic agents.<br>
<br>
MT: What I propose is unlikely to be done completely just by autonomic agen=
ts or software, but can be partially done by autonomic agents.=C2=A0 This i=
s the key reason for these email exchanges.<br>
<br>
2) Clear APIs to existing router operations.<br>
<br>
We would need to have an idea how these new components would talk to the re=
st of the router. This seems like an eay &quot;oh, we can have those agents=
 do 30 year old router CLI locally, but we&#39;d prefer Netconf/Yang with I=
ETF standardized models, and we do need the
 following yang models for the first important FP operations&quot;. There i=
s also talk about expanding into Thrift for higher performance data collect=
ion (beyond netconf, still with yang).<br>
<br>
MT: Agree, but we are far from these steps.=C2=A0 We have to agree on the f=
undamentals.<br>
3) connectivity between the agents.<br>
<br>
This is primarily where at the lowest layer the ACP would come in and it wo=
uld be great to see argument if/how security, zero-touch build-up and indes=
tructibility are required and/or beneficial for these agents functions.=C2=
=A0 You already mention the security aspect
 in your security section. Great.<br>
<br>
Next layer is leveraging GRASP as a protocol for agent-to-agent communicati=
on. Is it feasible/beneficial to expect a common new message signaling laye=
r with GRAP ? If so, it would be great to describee why and how. Eg: what c=
ommunication patterns would your
 agents have, do the patterns GRASP support suit your agents ?<br>
MT: In general I am not in favor of defining another control layer for this=
 purposes. Therefore, my proposed design=C2=A0 does not need and does not h=
ave a protocol for communications.<br>
<br>
Your section 7 already has one specific layer of message communicartions, b=
ut it is directly tied to ethernet frame. I&#39;d like to understand this b=
etter. I for once would think one would define for the message eleemnts a Y=
ang/CBOR data model &quot;failure management
 yang model&quot;. Then we look how to carry it. agent-to-agent, i would pr=
opose to actually run over GRASP (using CBOR representation of course), but=
 to humans behind an NMS its more likely via netconf/yang from an agent int=
o the NMS.<br>
MT: Ethernet frame is just an example. We can collectively decide to have s=
omething else. The key point here is to have one message format for all FM =
related communications.<br>
<br>
There may be other aspects, but if this makes sense to you, it would be gre=
at if we could get such a section added. Let me know if you need any help w=
ith that.<br>
MT: Appreciate the offer. Again we need to sync up on the fundamentals firs=
t.<br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Toerless<br>
<br>
On Mon, Oct 05, 2015 at 05:14:19PM +0000, Toy, Mehmet wrote:<br>
&gt; Dear All:<br>
&gt; I couldn&#39;t attend the Prague meeting, but luckily Dan was able to =
present my slides on &quot;Self-Managed Networks with Fault Management Hier=
archy&quot;.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The feedback was to position the work in the ANIMA=
 WG scope and framework.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; ANIMA charter in &quot;M. Behringer, et. al., A Reference Model for Au=
tonomic Networking<br>
&gt; draft-behringer-anima-reference-model-03&quot; refers to &quot;self-he=
aling&quot;.=C2=A0 RFC7575,=C2=A0 &quot;M. Behringer, et al.,=C2=A0 =C2=A0A=
utonomic Networking: Definitions and Design Goals&quot;,=C2=A0 refers to &q=
uot;self-management&quot;. However, both documents do not=C2=A0 articulate =
fault management aspect of
 the self-management.=C2=A0 It is possible to interpret the fault managemen=
t aspect of autonomic networks as part of &quot;self-healing&quot; and ther=
efore as part of the ANIMA charter.=C2=A0 In that case, the &quot;Architect=
ural Framework for Self-Managed Networks with Fault Management
 Hierarchy, draft-mtoy-anima-self-faultmang-framework-00.txt&quot; contribu=
tion can target to fill that gap.=C2=A0 The control plane aspect of self-he=
aling is addressed by &quot;M. Behringer, et al., An Autonomic Control Plan=
e, draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane-03&quot;.=C2=A0
 I believe these contributions are complementary to each other. I can try t=
o address that in the contribution.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Please let me know if you agree with me. If not, I suggest to modify t=
he charter since without covering fault management aspect of the autonomic =
networks, the concept of autonomic network will be incomplete.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
--<br>
---<br>
Toerless Eckert, <a href=3D"mailto:eckert@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">ecke=
rt@cisco.com</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Anima mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Anima@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Anima@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br clear=3D"all">
<br>
-- <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">John<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail_sig=
nature"><div>regards,</div><div>John</div></div>
</div>

--001a1143a8620d72550522687cdc--


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References: <9accdec6dd894df6afed38215b28b494@VAADCEX36.cable.comcast.com> <20151014231557.GA13294@cisco.com> <5fe9c36320aa4921b12eb0279463d2cb@VAADCEX37.cable.comcast.com> <CAJwYUrGKdk1ywkGcUV7JO+ArTCGYMm=R3voNoOfGe5+0pmxPgg@mail.gmail.com> <db3pj962kuhreh9qlbsvy2kh.1445129845742@email.android.com> <5622F347.1040906@joelhalpern.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 15:37:10 -0700
Message-ID: <CAJwYUrF=M84yekBFBzc7c1JR8q_VTmGTJKg=9F+skrqcJVfiLw@mail.gmail.com>
From: John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com>
To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com>
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Cc: "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" <eckert@cisco.com>, "anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>, "Toy,  Mehmet" <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>, "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" <mbehring@cisco.com>, "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\) \(dromasca@avaya.com\)" <dromasca@avaya.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
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--001a1144029663ab16052268ab5d
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Hi Joel and Toerless,

I think I now understand what Toerless was getting at. Clearly, the current
way of building big device OSs (e.g., for routers and switches) won't
continue to be successful. I strongly agree that ASAs MUST be able to be
dynamically installed without adversely affecting the environment.

The reason I talked about specifications and Active Networks was to plant
the seed early in the ANIMA WG that such things WILL FAIL unless we
provide a well-defined framework to develop those ASAs, as well as to
enable them to communicate with each other and with non-autonomic
entities.

I don't really care where we start (though I hope we can reuse past work
from FIPA, IFIP, etc.), but without defining such a framework, I don't see
how we will succeed.

Finally, I agree with Joel - we MUST NOT require OS replacement in order
for ANIMA to work.

regards,
John

On Sat, Oct 17, 2015 at 6:17 PM, Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
wrote:

> I see two ways to looking at this.
> One way, which is I think what Toerless is suggesting, is that being able
> to dynamically install ASAs into devices dramatically increases the power
> of the autonomic data plane.
>
> The converse is that if Anima requires replacement of the OS on all
> devices in the environment, then I confidently predict failure of our
> effort.
>
> Yours,
> Joel
>
> On 10/17/15 9:02 PM, Toerless Eckert (eckert) wrote:
>
>> Of course, being easily in@tallable and uninstallable does not make the
>> majorities of android/ios apps useful, but if ios/android only had
>> preinstalled software and you had to upgrade the os to get other apps -
>> those os would not exist.
>>
>> I dont understand how router vendor os survive without that concept, and
>> if at all possible id like to make  sure we do worry about aspects like
>> these to nmake the autonomic vision operationally successful.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my Samsung Captivate Glide on AT&T
>>
>> John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Toerless wrote:
>>
>>  > 1) easily, ideally autonomous downloadable agent/application infra.
>> <jcs>
>> Frankly, I've never thought of that. However, I'm not sure that this is a
>> complete answer. Without specifications that define how the agents
>> and app infrastructure are built, how they communicate, etc., I don't
>> see how this works. So shouldn't the ANIMA WG build those specs?
>>
>> Just because something can be downloaded and deployed doesn't
>> mean it is useful. Remember the disaster that was Active Networks,
>> which set AI in networking back two decades.
>> </jcs>
>>
>> Mehmet wrote:
>>
>> MT: What I propose is unlikely to be done completely just by autonomic
>> agents or software, but can be partially done by autonomic agents.  This
>> is the key reason for these email exchanges.
>> <jcs>
>> You lost me. If it isn't software, then it must be hardware. I like ASICs
>> and FPGAs, but they can't do everything, especially in an adaptive
>> environment. Please elaborate more.
>> </jcs>
>>
>>   ...
>>
>> Mehmet wrote:
>> MT: In general I am not in favor of defining another control layer for
>> this purposes. Therefore, my proposed design  does not need and does not
>> have a protocol for communications.
>> <jcs>
>> Then how do different autonomic elements find each other and form
>> themselves into a group that can do something useful?
>> </jcs>
>> ...
>>
>> regards,
>> John
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Toy, Mehmet
>> <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com <mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>     Toerless,
>>     Please see below.
>>     Thanks
>>     Mehmet
>>
>>     -----Original Message-----
>>     From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:eckert@cisco.com
>>     <mailto:eckert@cisco.com>]
>>     Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:16 PM
>>     To: Toy, Mehmet
>>     Cc: anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org
>>     <mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>; brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com
>>     <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>; mbehring@cisco.com
>>     <mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>; Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
>>     (dromasca@avaya.com <mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>)
>>     Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks
>>
>>     Toy:
>>
>>     Unless you feel its more appropriate to keep this discussion in this
>>     closed mailing list, i would suggest to have it on the anima mailing
>>     list.
>>
>>     First off: You've compressed really a lot of crucial arch design
>>     from your detailed first slidedeck into this a lot more pithy, yet
>>     comprehensive first draft. I think my main concern is how we can
>>     work on the SW engineering aspects of how to build it and build upon
>>     the anima infrastructure.
>>
>>     I think i did ask you some IETFs ago when you presented your slides,
>>     that it would be good if we could focus on that aspect.
>>
>>     Eg: Could we add a section to the document outlining a summary of
>>     how this framework would leverage and benefit from the the currently
>>     planned anima infrastructure - why/ how to use it - so we know the
>>     requirements we have, especially if those are any we would need to
>>     consider during recharter.
>>     MT: As you can see from my previous email, I am not on board with
>>     current architectural definitions.  Once we are sync on the
>>     definitions of architectural components, I should make an attempt to
>>     address your concerns.
>>
>>     If you'd ask me, primarily as a contributor considering what would
>>     best help to make this happen - and move ANIMA forward, i think the
>>     key aspects are:
>>
>>     1) easily, ideally autonomous downloadable agent/application infra.
>>
>>     Eg: I don't see any way that either vendors or operators could
>>     realistically build this framework if these components are tied into
>>     the classical router OS software delivery model where it takes
>>     months to validate a sofftware update and more months to deploy it.
>>     If this can be downloaded, as separate apps then its so much easier
>>     to incrementally build/deploy it on a totally different deployment
>>     process.
>>
>>     How exactly should this be done so operators like comcast will most
>>     likely start incrementally deploying this ?
>>
>>     Eg: I am sure autonomic agents will be the next re-charter item, the
>>     functionality you describe for fault-management via such agents is
>>     great, and i can see how that is just good work to refine, so i am
>>     mostly worred about the sW-engineering and operational aspects of
>>     such autonomic agents.
>>
>>     MT: What I propose is unlikely to be done completely just by
>>     autonomic agents or software, but can be partially done by autonomic
>>     agents.  This is the key reason for these email exchanges.
>>
>>     2) Clear APIs to existing router operations.
>>
>>     We would need to have an idea how these new components would talk to
>>     the rest of the router. This seems like an eay "oh, we can have
>>     those agents do 30 year old router CLI locally, but we'd prefer
>>     Netconf/Yang with IETF standardized models, and we do need the
>>     following yang models for the first important FP operations". There
>>     is also talk about expanding into Thrift for higher performance data
>>     collection (beyond netconf, still with yang).
>>
>>     MT: Agree, but we are far from these steps.  We have to agree on the
>>     fundamentals.
>>     3) connectivity between the agents.
>>
>>     This is primarily where at the lowest layer the ACP would come in
>>     and it would be great to see argument if/how security, zero-touch
>>     build-up and indestructibility are required and/or beneficial for
>>     these agents functions.  You already mention the security aspect in
>>     your security section. Great.
>>
>>     Next layer is leveraging GRASP as a protocol for agent-to-agent
>>     communication. Is it feasible/beneficial to expect a common new
>>     message signaling layer with GRAP ? If so, it would be great to
>>     describee why and how. Eg: what communication patterns would your
>>     agents have, do the patterns GRASP support suit your agents ?
>>     MT: In general I am not in favor of defining another control layer
>>     for this purposes. Therefore, my proposed design  does not need and
>>     does not have a protocol for communications.
>>
>>     Your section 7 already has one specific layer of message
>>     communicartions, but it is directly tied to ethernet frame. I'd like
>>     to understand this better. I for once would think one would define
>>     for the message eleemnts a Yang/CBOR data model "failure management
>>     yang model". Then we look how to carry it. agent-to-agent, i would
>>     propose to actually run over GRASP (using CBOR representation of
>>     course), but to humans behind an NMS its more likely via
>>     netconf/yang from an agent into the NMS.
>>     MT: Ethernet frame is just an example. We can collectively decide to
>>     have something else. The key point here is to have one message
>>     format for all FM related communications.
>>
>>     There may be other aspects, but if this makes sense to you, it would
>>     be great if we could get such a section added. Let me know if you
>>     need any help with that.
>>     MT: Appreciate the offer. Again we need to sync up on the
>>     fundamentals first.
>>
>>     Cheers
>>          Toerless
>>
>>     On Mon, Oct 05, 2015 at 05:14:19PM +0000, Toy, Mehmet wrote:
>>      > Dear All:
>>      > I couldn't attend the Prague meeting, but luckily Dan was able to
>>     present my slides on "Self-Managed Networks with Fault Management
>>     Hierarchy".   The feedback was to position the work in the ANIMA WG
>>     scope and framework.
>>      >
>>      > ANIMA charter in "M. Behringer, et. al., A Reference Model for
>>     Autonomic Networking
>>      > draft-behringer-anima-reference-model-03" refers to
>>     "self-healing".  RFC7575,  "M. Behringer, et al.,   Autonomic
>>     Networking: Definitions and Design Goals",  refers to
>>     "self-management". However, both documents do not  articulate fault
>>     management aspect of the self-management.  It is possible to
>>     interpret the fault management aspect of autonomic networks as part
>>     of "self-healing" and therefore as part of the ANIMA charter.  In
>>     that case, the "Architectural Framework for Self-Managed Networks
>>     with Fault Management Hierarchy,
>>     draft-mtoy-anima-self-faultmang-framework-00.txt" contribution can
>>     target to fill that gap.  The control plane aspect of self-healing
>>     is addressed by "M. Behringer, et al., An Autonomic Control Plane,
>>     draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane-03". I believe these
>>     contributions are complementary to each other. I can try to address
>>     that in the contribution.
>>      >
>>      > Please let me know if you agree with me. If not, I suggest to
>>     modify the charter since without covering fault management aspect of
>>     the autonomic networks, the concept of autonomic network will be
>>     incomplete.
>>      >
>>      > Regards,
>>      > Mehmet
>>      >
>>      >
>>
>>     --
>>     ---
>>     Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com <mailto:eckert@cisco.com>
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     Anima mailing list
>>     Anima@ietf.org <mailto:Anima@ietf.org>
>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> regards,
>> John
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>
>>


-- 
regards,
John

--001a1144029663ab16052268ab5d
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi Joel and Toerless,</div><div><br></div><div>I thin=
k I now understand what Toerless was getting at. Clearly, the current</div>=
<div>way of building big device OSs (e.g., for routers and switches) won&#3=
9;t</div><div>continue to be successful. I strongly agree that ASAs MUST be=
 able to be</div><div>dynamically installed without adversely affecting the=
 environment.</div><div><br></div><div>The reason I talked about specificat=
ions and Active Networks was to plant</div><div>the seed early in the ANIMA=
 WG that such things WILL FAIL unless we</div><div>provide a well-defined f=
ramework to develop those ASAs, as well as to </div><div>enable them to com=
municate with each other and with non-autonomic </div><div>entities.</div><=
div><br></div><div>I don&#39;t really care where we start (though I hope we=
 can reuse past work</div><div>from FIPA, IFIP, etc.), but without defining=
 such a framework, I don&#39;t see</div><div>how we will succeed.</div><div=
><br></div><div>Finally, I agree with Joel - we MUST=C2=A0NOT require OS re=
placement in order</div><div>for ANIMA to work.</div><div><br></div><div>re=
gards,</div><div>John<br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Oct 17, 2015 at 6:17 PM, Joel M. Halpern <span =
dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com" target=3D"_blank">jm=
h@joelhalpern.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I=
 see two ways to looking at this.<br>
One way, which is I think what Toerless is suggesting, is that being able t=
o dynamically install ASAs into devices dramatically increases the power of=
 the autonomic data plane.<br>
<br>
The converse is that if Anima requires replacement of the OS on all devices=
 in the environment, then I confidently predict failure of our effort.<br>
<br>
Yours,<br>
Joel<br>
<br>
On 10/17/15 9:02 PM, Toerless Eckert (eckert) wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding=
-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-l=
eft-style:solid">
Of course, being easily in@tallable and uninstallable does not make the<br>
majorities of android/ios apps useful, but if ios/android only had<br>
preinstalled software and you had to upgrade the os to get other apps -<br>
those os would not exist.<br>
<br>
I dont understand how router vendor os survive without that concept, and<br=
>
if at all possible id like to make=C2=A0 sure we do worry about aspects lik=
e<br>
these to nmake the autonomic vision operationally successful.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Sent from my Samsung Captivate Glide on AT&amp;T<br>
<br>
John Strassner &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:strazpdj@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">=
strazpdj@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
Hi all,<br>
<br>
Toerless wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0&gt; 1) easily, ideally autonomous downloadable agent/application inf=
ra.<br>
&lt;jcs&gt;<br>
Frankly, I&#39;ve never thought of that. However, I&#39;m not sure that thi=
s is a<br>
complete answer. Without specifications that define how the agents<br>
and app infrastructure are built, how they communicate, etc., I don&#39;t<b=
r>
see how this works. So shouldn&#39;t the ANIMA WG build those specs?<br>
<br>
Just because something can be downloaded and deployed doesn&#39;t<br>
mean it is useful. Remember the disaster that was Active Networks,<br>
which set AI in networking back two decades.<br>
&lt;/jcs&gt;<br>
<br>
Mehmet wrote:<br>
<br>
MT: What I propose is unlikely to be done completely just by autonomic<br>
agents or software, but can be partially done by autonomic agents.=C2=A0 Th=
is<br>
is the key reason for these email exchanges.<br>
&lt;jcs&gt;<br>
You lost me. If it isn&#39;t software, then it must be hardware. I like ASI=
Cs<br>
and FPGAs, but they can&#39;t do everything, especially in an adaptive<br>
environment. Please elaborate more.<br>
&lt;/jcs&gt;<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 ...<br>
<br>
Mehmet wrote:<br>
MT: In general I am not in favor of defining another control layer for<br>
this purposes. Therefore, my proposed design=C2=A0 does not need and does n=
ot<br>
have a protocol for communications.<br>
&lt;jcs&gt;<br>
Then how do different autonomic elements find each other and form<br>
themselves into a group that can do something useful?<br>
&lt;/jcs&gt;<br>
...<br>
<br>
regards,<br>
John<br>
<br>
On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Toy, Mehmet<br>
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com" target=3D"_blank">Mehme=
t_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.c=
omcast.com" target=3D"_blank">Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrot=
e:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Toerless,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Please see below.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Mehmet<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 -----Original Message-----<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 From: Toerless Eckert [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:eckert@cisco.=
com" target=3D"_blank">eckert@cisco.com</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:eckert@cisco.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">eckert@cisco.com</a>&gt;]<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 7:16 PM<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 To: Toy, Mehmet<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:brian=
.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a><b=
r>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:mbehr=
ing@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">mbehring@cisco.com</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt;; Romascanu, Dan (Dan)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=3D"_blank">drom=
asca@avaya.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com" target=
=3D"_blank">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&gt;)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Toy:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Unless you feel its more appropriate to keep this discussion =
in this<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 closed mailing list, i would suggest to have it on the anima =
mailing<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 list.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 First off: You&#39;ve compressed really a lot of crucial arch=
 design<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 from your detailed first slidedeck into this a lot more pithy=
, yet<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 comprehensive first draft. I think my main concern is how we =
can<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 work on the SW engineering aspects of how to build it and bui=
ld upon<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the anima infrastructure.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I think i did ask you some IETFs ago when you presented your =
slides,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 that it would be good if we could focus on that aspect.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Eg: Could we add a section to the document outlining a summar=
y of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 how this framework would leverage and benefit from the the cu=
rrently<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 planned anima infrastructure - why/ how to use it - so we kno=
w the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 requirements we have, especially if those are any we would ne=
ed to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 consider during recharter.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 MT: As you can see from my previous email, I am not on board =
with<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 current architectural definitions.=C2=A0 Once we are sync on =
the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 definitions of architectural components, I should make an att=
empt to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 address your concerns.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 If you&#39;d ask me, primarily as a contributor considering w=
hat would<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 best help to make this happen - and move ANIMA forward, i thi=
nk the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 key aspects are:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 1) easily, ideally autonomous downloadable agent/application =
infra.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Eg: I don&#39;t see any way that either vendors or operators =
could<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 realistically build this framework if these components are ti=
ed into<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the classical router OS software delivery model where it take=
s<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 months to validate a sofftware update and more months to depl=
oy it.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 If this can be downloaded, as separate apps then its so much =
easier<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to incrementally build/deploy it on a totally different deplo=
yment<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 process.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 How exactly should this be done so operators like comcast wil=
l most<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 likely start incrementally deploying this ?<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Eg: I am sure autonomic agents will be the next re-charter it=
em, the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 functionality you describe for fault-management via such agen=
ts is<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 great, and i can see how that is just good work to refine, so=
 i am<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mostly worred about the sW-engineering and operational aspect=
s of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 such autonomic agents.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 MT: What I propose is unlikely to be done completely just by<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 autonomic agents or software, but can be partially done by au=
tonomic<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 agents.=C2=A0 This is the key reason for these email exchange=
s.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 2) Clear APIs to existing router operations.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 We would need to have an idea how these new components would =
talk to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the rest of the router. This seems like an eay &quot;oh, we c=
an have<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 those agents do 30 year old router CLI locally, but we&#39;d =
prefer<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Netconf/Yang with IETF standardized models, and we do need th=
e<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 following yang models for the first important FP operations&q=
uot;. There<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 is also talk about expanding into Thrift for higher performan=
ce data<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 collection (beyond netconf, still with yang).<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 MT: Agree, but we are far from these steps.=C2=A0 We have to =
agree on the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 fundamentals.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 3) connectivity between the agents.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This is primarily where at the lowest layer the ACP would com=
e in<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and it would be great to see argument if/how security, zero-t=
ouch<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 build-up and indestructibility are required and/or beneficial=
 for<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 these agents functions.=C2=A0 You already mention the securit=
y aspect in<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 your security section. Great.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Next layer is leveraging GRASP as a protocol for agent-to-age=
nt<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 communication. Is it feasible/beneficial to expect a common n=
ew<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 message signaling layer with GRAP ? If so, it would be great =
to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 describee why and how. Eg: what communication patterns would =
your<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 agents have, do the patterns GRASP support suit your agents ?=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 MT: In general I am not in favor of defining another control =
layer<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 for this purposes. Therefore, my proposed design=C2=A0 does n=
ot need and<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 does not have a protocol for communications.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Your section 7 already has one specific layer of message<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 communicartions, but it is directly tied to ethernet frame. I=
&#39;d like<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to understand this better. I for once would think one would d=
efine<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 for the message eleemnts a Yang/CBOR data model &quot;failure=
 management<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 yang model&quot;. Then we look how to carry it. agent-to-agen=
t, i would<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 propose to actually run over GRASP (using CBOR representation=
 of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 course), but to humans behind an NMS its more likely via<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 netconf/yang from an agent into the NMS.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 MT: Ethernet frame is just an example. We can collectively de=
cide to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 have something else. The key point here is to have one messag=
e<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 format for all FM related communications.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 There may be other aspects, but if this makes sense to you, i=
t would<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 be great if we could get such a section added. Let me know if=
 you<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 need any help with that.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 MT: Appreciate the offer. Again we need to sync up on the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 fundamentals first.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Cheers<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Toerless<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Mon, Oct 05, 2015 at 05:14:19PM +0000, Toy, Mehmet wrote:<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Dear All:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; I couldn&#39;t attend the Prague meeting, but luck=
ily Dan was able to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 present my slides on &quot;Self-Managed Networks with Fault M=
anagement<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Hierarchy&quot;.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The feedback was to position the=
 work in the ANIMA WG<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 scope and framework.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; ANIMA charter in &quot;M. Behringer, et. al., A Re=
ference Model for<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Autonomic Networking<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; draft-behringer-anima-reference-model-03&quot; ref=
ers to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;self-healing&quot;.=C2=A0 RFC7575,=C2=A0 &quot;M. Behri=
nger, et al.,=C2=A0 =C2=A0Autonomic<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Networking: Definitions and Design Goals&quot;,=C2=A0 refers =
to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;self-management&quot;. However, both documents do not=
=C2=A0 articulate fault<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 management aspect of the self-management.=C2=A0 It is possibl=
e to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 interpret the fault management aspect of autonomic networks a=
s part<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 of &quot;self-healing&quot; and therefore as part of the ANIM=
A charter.=C2=A0 In<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 that case, the &quot;Architectural Framework for Self-Managed=
 Networks<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 with Fault Management Hierarchy,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft-mtoy-anima-self-faultmang-framework-00.txt&quot; contri=
bution can<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 target to fill that gap.=C2=A0 The control plane aspect of se=
lf-healing<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 is addressed by &quot;M. Behringer, et al., An Autonomic Cont=
rol Plane,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane-03&quot;. I bel=
ieve these<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 contributions are complementary to each other. I can try to a=
ddress<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 that in the contribution.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Please let me know if you agree with me. If not, I=
 suggest to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 modify the charter since without covering fault management as=
pect of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the autonomic networks, the concept of autonomic network will=
 be<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 incomplete.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Regards,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Mehmet<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 --<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ---<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Toerless Eckert, <a href=3D"mailto:eckert@cisco.com" target=
=3D"_blank">eckert@cisco.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:eckert@cisco.=
com" target=3D"_blank">eckert@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 _______________________________________________<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Anima mailing list<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:Anima@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Anima@iet=
f.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Anima@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">An=
ima@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima" targe=
t=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima=
</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">
<br>
--<br>
regards,<br>
John<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Anima mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Anima@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Anima@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima" target=3D"_blank" r=
el=3D"noreferrer">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a><br>
<br>
</font></span></blockquote>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail_sig=
nature"><div>regards,</div><div>John</div></div>
</div>

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From: John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com>
To: "Toy, Mehmet" <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>
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Cc: "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
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I for one think that these are just examples. It is a **control plane**,
so it should not be **limited** to those functions.

Toerless, can you elaborate?

regards,
John

On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 8:13 AM, Toy, Mehmet <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>
wrote:

> Michael,
> Yes there was.
> Discussion with Toerless made it clear to me that the model is for "auto
> routing and auto discovery".
> Mehmet
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com]
> Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 4:44 AM
> To: Brian E Carpenter; Toy, Mehmet; anima@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
>
> Adding to Brian's response (which I agree with), and up-levelling the
> discussion a bit:
>
> Mehmet, I think there is a simple misunderstanding here. The ACP is a
> control plane for *device* management. A device can hold many contexts, a=
s
> in NFV, but they are all managed in a single way. My feeling is we have a
> disconnect somewhere on this level, right?
>
> Michael
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]
> > Sent: 16 October 2015 08:02
> > To: Toy, Mehmet <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>; Michael Behringer
> > (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com>; anima@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks
> >
> > On 16/10/2015 16:36, Toy, Mehmet wrote:
> > > Michael,
> > >
> > > Before I pick each of your statement and express my thoughts, I
> > > would like
> > to ask more questions by picking your  statement " There is *one* ACP,
> > there are *many* autonomic functions on top.".   Assume we  start
> building
> > on this to see how far we can go, whether this holds for all cases or
> > not, I don't know.
> > >
> > > If we have two or more ACPs, what could go wrong?
> >
> > Why would a domain need more than one ACP? (Certainly there might be a
> > transient situation after a temporary network partition where two ACPs
> > would "meet" and then need to merge; indeed the ACP needs to be self-
> > repairing in such cases.)
> >
> > > What is it that you are trying to do here? What is the purpose
> > > behind this
> > model?
> >
> > Provide a secure L3 between all autonomic nodes that is strictly
> > independent of the operational data plane. The purpose is to allow
> > autonomic operations to work regardless of anything else.
> >
> > >
> > > Furthermore, I suggest you to think about ETSI NFV model,
> > > "infrastructure" and "VNF" division of networks.  What is wrong in
> > > using that kind of model here which is a reasonable breakdown,
> >
> > We aren't reinventing NFV, as far as I can tell. If there is a recent
> > technical overview of NFV, that would be interesting to see. But I
> > don't believe that Autonomic Service Agents are at all the same thing a=
s
> VNFs.
> >
> > > instead of sticking with ACP  that is becoming very difficult to
> define?
> >
> > Huh? draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane is still work in
> > progress but it seems very clearly defined to me. In sketching out how
> > GRASP will be implemented, I haven't hit any conceptual problems with
> > the ACP, and its main API will just be socket calls. The only
> > complication I found is that it will need to support the Advanced
> > Socket API because of some special requirements for link-local
> > multicasts. Otherwise, it's just another virtual
> > (loopback) network interface.
> >
> > Regards
> >    Brian
> >
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Mehmet
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 4:57 AM
> > > To: Toy, Mehmet; Brian E Carpenter; anima@ietf.org
> > > Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >
> > > Toy, thanks for raising those questions. Obviously, we're not doing
> > > a good
> > job yet in describing what the ACP is, and that needs to be fixed. And
> > obviously, we all need the same view to progress further. So this is a
> > very important discussion, and I really welcome it.
> > >
> > > Before formalising better text, let me see whether we get agreement
> > > on
> > the fundamental idea.
> > >
> > > In my head, there are two layers: The ACP, and on top of that the
> > Autonomic Functions:
> > >
> > > * The ACP is the "tool kit". It comprises various "mechanics", such
> > > as
> > negotiation, synchronisation, discovery of various sorts, messaging, et=
c.
> > Those are all based on a common addressing and naming concept.
> > >
> > > * Autonomic Functions use that tool kit to do something clever. In
> > > other
> > words, the true autonomic "intelligence" sits on that level.
> > >
> > > There is *one* ACP, there are *many* autonomic functions on top.
> > >
> > > One way to decide to which layer something belongs is to ask: "is
> > > this (1) a
> > generic functionality which many functions require, or is this (2) one
> > specific function?". If the answer is (1), it belongs into the ACP, if
> > (2) it belongs into an autonomic function.
> > >
> > > So, in this light, my understanding (!) of fault management is that
> > > this is an autonomic function, and would use common blocks of the
> > > underlying ACP. Conversely, it would not offer services to other
> > > autonomic functions on top. This is my way of thinking when I write
> > > "this is an autonomic function".  And I'm not 100% certain I
> > > understand what you're suggesting, so please chime in here! (And I
> > > haven't read your draft fully yet, sorry)
> > >
> > > Look at
> > > http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-01.txt
> > > This draft describes "intelligence". In that case, a way to
> > > automatically
> > manage address space. Sections 2.2 and 2.3 explain which parameters
> > and information exchanges such a function would require. Sheng wrote
> > this document to explain how an autonomic function would use a common
> ACP.
> > >
> > > Probably we should take some off-line time in Yokohama to discuss
> > > this in a
> > small team?
> > >
> > > Michael
> > >
> > >
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Toy,
> > Mehmet
> > >> Sent: 15 October 2015 04:26
> > >> To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>; Michael
> > >> Behringer
> > >> (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com>; anima@ietf.org
> > >> Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
> > >>
> > >> Michael and Brian,
> > >> Per Toerless suggestion, I am including ANIMA group into the
> discussion.
> > >>
> > >> I re-read the "A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking" document
> > >> and I am not clear about the definitions.
> > >>
> > >> a)  In the "A Reference Model for Autonomic Networking", ACP is
> > >> defined as "The Autonomic Control Plane is the summary of all
> > >> interactions of the Autonomic Networking Infrastructure with other
> > nodes and services.".
> > >>
> > >> b) Brian, you write as " The ACP is common infrastructure for all
> > >> autonomic functions.(The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of
> > >> course.) The signaling protocol is also common infrastructure."
> > >>
> > >> Question: What is ACP? a or b or combination?
> > >>
> > >> c) Section 4 in the reference model document , "The Autonomic
> > >> Networking Infrastructure provides a layer of common  functionality
> > >> across an Autonomic Network.  It comprises "must implement"
> > >> functions and services, as well as extensions."
> > >> Question: What are the "must implement" functionalities?  How do
> > >> you define "must implement" functionalities?
> > >>
> > >> Thanks
> > >> Mehmet
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]
> > >> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM
> > >> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); Toy, Mehmet
> > >> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
> > >> chairs@tools.ietf.org'
> > >> Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks
> > >>
> > >> I agree with Michael. The ACP is common infrastructure for all
> > >> autonomic functions.
> > >> (The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of course.) The signaling
> > >> protocol is also common infrastructure.
> > >>
> > >>    Brian
> > >> On 15/10/2015 05:43, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
> > >>> I would argue they are part of an autonomic function, which runs
> > >>> on top of
> > >> the ACP.
> > >>> There are really two different pieces here, and this is I think
> > >>> the confusion
> > >> here:
> > >>>
> > >>> -          The ACP is self-managing. It needs to do self-healing, a=
nd
> > >> automatically adapt to new situations. But to me, this isn=E2=80=99t=
 fault
> > >> management or performance management as an operator understands
> > it.
> > >>>
> > >>> -          The network has FM and PM function. Those could be (and
> should
> > >> be, imo) autonomic functions. Those run on top of the ACP.
> > >>> Bottom line: I=E2=80=99d like to keep the ACP itself as minimalisti=
c and
> > >>> simple as we
> > >> possibly can. Functions like FM / PM belong into an autonomic
> > >> function,
> > IMO.
> > >>> What do you think?
> > >>> Michael
> > >>> From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
> > >>> Sent: 14 October 2015 18:30
> > >>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com>
> > >>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com' <dromasca@avaya.com>;
> > >> 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'
> > >>> <jiangsheng@huawei.com>; 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org'
> > >>> <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
> > >>> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
> > >>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >>>
> > >>> Michael,
> > >>> Instead of answering the question as Yes or No, let me give
> > >>> examples to
> > >> see what makes sense.
> > >>> Let=E2=80=99s say in a data path, a router port is failed.  The rou=
ter
> > >>> generates an AIS
> > >> (Alarm Indication Signal) and the receiving  end generates RDI
> > >> (remote Defect Indicator).  Both messages are generated by the
> > hardware, not by a
> > >> software or ACP.   As a result of this failure,  there would be
> packet loss.
> > The
> > >> hardware counts these losses, an ACP does not.
> > >>> For the FM and PM functions above, can we say they are part of an
> ACP?
> > >>> Thanks
> > >>> Mehmet
> > >>> From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com]
> > >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:34 AM
> > >>> To: Toy, Mehmet
> > >>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
> > >> chairs@tools.ietf.org'; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
> > >>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >>>
> > >>> Hi Toy,
> > >>> To understand better: To me, fault management *uses* the functions
> > >>> of
> > >> the AN infrastructure. It uses the ACP to communicate, maybe GRASP
> > >> for some signalling, might be influenced by Intent, etc. Right?  So
> > >> to me, this is a logical component of an autonomic network that
> > >> sits on top of the AN infrastructure.
> > >>> Do we agree?
> > >>> Michael
> > >>>
> > >>> From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
> > >>> Sent: 13 October 2015 23:46
> > >>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
> > >>> <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
> > >>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'
> > >>> <dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>;
> > >>> 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'
> > >>> <jiangsheng@huawei.com<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>>;
> > >>> 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org'
> > >>> <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>;
> > >>> 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
> > >>> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>
> > >>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >>>
> > >>> Michael,
> > >>> Appreciate the reply.
> > >>> FM is part of data plane and control plane (i.e. ANI in your
> diagram).
> > >>> My plan is to add a short paragraph for now either to section 2 to
> > >>> expand
> > >> the description  of ANI or to section 4 to add a sub-section for
> > >> Fault Management.
> > >>>
> > >>> It is also possible too add a Performance Management section to
> > >>> describe
> > >> what types of measurements and where and how are used.  Although
> > >> there is a control feedback related measurement in the document, I
> > >> don=E2=80=99t know if it is adequate.
> > >>>
> > >>> Regards,
> > >>> Mehmet
> > >>> From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:mbehring@cisco.com]
> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 12:27 PM
> > >>> To: Toy, Mehmet
> > >>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
> > >> chairs@tools.ietf.org'; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
> > >>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >>>
> > >>> Sorry for the delay, it=E2=80=99s very busy at the moment here.
> > >>> To me, fault management refers generally to faults on the data
> > >>> plane, ie for
> > >> user traffic. I see that happening at some point as an autonomic
> > >> function (or several, for different aspects). Would you agree? Or
> > >> do you see that as a function inside the AN infrastructure?
> > >>> So my feeling is that function would reside on top of the
> > >>> infrastructure that
> > >> we=E2=80=99re currently defining. So, please have a look whether you=
r
> > >> thoughts can be described as an autonomic function. I think they
> > >> probably
> > can.
> > >>> Then I suggest we do the same that we=E2=80=99re planning to do wit=
h the
> > >>> NMS
> > >> section, the model discussion, etc: Have a short paragraph describe
> > >> the overall topic briefly, and point to an external doc for now,
> > >> i.e., probably your draft.
> > >>> If you agree, can you suggest where in the reference model you
> > >>> would add
> > >> a short paragraph about fault management, and I suppose we=E2=80=99d=
 point
> > >> to your draft, right?
> > >>> Michael
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
> > >>> Sent: 13 October 2015 03:53
> > >>> To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)
> > >>> <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
> > >>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'
> > >>> <dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>;
> > >>> 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'
> > >>> <jiangsheng@huawei.com<mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>>;
> > >>> 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org'
> > >>> <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>;
> > >>> 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
> > >>> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>
> > >>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >>>
> > >>> Mike,
> > >>> I am waiting for your response.
> > >>> Thanks
> > >>> Mehmet
> > >>>
> > >>> From: Toy, Mehmet
> > >>> Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 8:13 PM
> > >>> To: 'mbehring@cisco.com'
> > >>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'; 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-
> > >> chairs@tools.ietf.org'; 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'
> > >>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >>>
> > >>> Mike,
> > >>> I can send you some text to include in section 2 and 4 of  =E2=80=
=9CA
> > >>> Reference
> > >> Model for Autonomic Networking,   draft-behringer-anima-reference-
> > >> model-03=E2=80=9D,  per Sheng=E2=80=99s suggestion.
> > >>> Should I just do that?
> > >>> Thanks
> > >>> Mehmet
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> From: Toy, Mehmet
> > >>> Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 7:53 AM
> > >>> To: 'jiangsheng@huawei.com'; 'anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org';
> > >> 'brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com'; 'mbehring@cisco.com'
> > >>> Cc: 'dromasca@avaya.com'
> > >>> Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks
> > >>>
> > >>> Sheng,
> > >>> Appreciate a quick response.
> > >>> I will work on your suggestion.
> > >>> Mehmet
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com]
> > >>> Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 06:08 AM Eastern Standard Time
> > >>> To: Toy, Mehmet;
> > >>> anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>
> > >>> <anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>>;
> > >>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
> > >>> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>>;
> > >>> mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>
> > >>> <mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>>
> > >>> Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
> > >>> (dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>)
> > >>> <dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>>
> > >>> Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks
> > >>>
> > >>> Hi, Toy,
> > >>> First of all, for my understanding, your work is in the scope of
> > >>> the WG
> > >> charter. However, we do not have work item or milestone for it. It
> > >> looks like an upper-layer autonomic service agent for me. In our
> > >> plan, autonomic service agents are mainly for the next period,
> > >> which is after re-charter (this is the same with your suggestion of
> > >> modifying the charter, but it cannot happen until we deliver the
> > >> current milestones). For now, the best may be try to add some
> > >> description, maybe mainly abstracted functionality, into the
> > >> reference
> > model document.
> > >>> Best regards,
> > >>> Sheng
> > >>>
> > >>> From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com]
> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 1:14 AM
> > >>> To:
> > >>> anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org<mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org>;
> > >>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>;
> > >>> mbehring@cisco.com<mailto:mbehring@cisco.com>
> > >>> Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
> > >>> (dromasca@avaya.com<mailto:dromasca@avaya.com>)
> > >>> Subject: Self-Managed Networks
> > >>>
> > >>> Dear All:
> > >>> I couldn=E2=80=99t attend the Prague meeting, but luckily Dan was a=
ble to
> > >>> present
> > >> my slides on =E2=80=9CSelf-Managed Networks with Fault Management
> > Hierarchy=E2=80=9D.
> > >> The feedback was to position the work in the ANIMA WG scope and
> > >> framework.
> > >>>
> > >>> ANIMA charter in =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et. al., A Reference Model =
for
> > >>> Autonomic
> > >> Networking
> > >>> draft-behringer-anima-reference-model-03=E2=80=9D refers to =E2=80=
=9Cself-healing=E2=80=9D.
> > >> RFC7575,  =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et al.,   Autonomic Networking: Def=
initions
> and
> > >> Design Goals=E2=80=9D,  refers to =E2=80=9Cself-management=E2=80=9D.=
 However, both
> > >> documents do not  articulate fault management aspect of the
> self-management.
> > >> It is possible to interpret the fault management aspect of
> > >> autonomic networks as part of =E2=80=9Cself-healing=E2=80=9D and the=
refore as part
> > >> of the ANIMA charter.  In that case, the =E2=80=9CArchitectural Fram=
ework
> > >> for Self-Managed Networks with Fault Management Hierarchy,
> > >> draft-mtoy-anima-self-faultmang-framework-
> > >> 00.txt=E2=80=9D contribution can target to fill that gap.  The contr=
ol
> > >> plane aspect of self-healing is addressed by =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, =
et al.,
> > >> An Autonomic Control Plane,
> > >> draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane-03=E2=80=9D.  I believ=
e these
> > >> contributions are complementary to each other. I can try to address
> > >> that
> > in the contribution.
> > >>>
> > >>> Please let me know if you agree with me. If not, I suggest to
> > >>> modify the
> > >> charter since without covering fault management aspect of the
> > >> autonomic networks, the concept of autonomic network will be
> > incomplete.
> > >>>
> > >>> Regards,
> > >>> Mehmet
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Anima mailing list
> > >> Anima@ietf.org
> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>



--=20
regards,
John

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I for one think that these are just examples. It is a=
 **control plane**,</div><div>so it should not be **limited** to those func=
tions.</div><div><br></div><div>Toerless, can you elaborate?</div><div><br>=
</div><div>regards,</div><div>John</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><b=
r><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 8:13 AM, Toy, Mehmet <=
span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com" target=
=3D"_blank">Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc so=
lid;padding-left:1ex">Michael,<br>
Yes there was.<br>
Discussion with Toerless made it clear to me that the model is for &quot;au=
to routing and auto discovery&quot;.<br>
Mehmet<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco=
.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a>]<br>
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 4:44 AM<br>
To: Brian E Carpenter; Toy, Mehmet; <a href=3D"mailto:anima@ietf.org">anima=
@ietf.org</a><br>
Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
<br>
Adding to Brian&#39;s response (which I agree with), and up-levelling the d=
iscussion a bit:<br>
<br>
Mehmet, I think there is a simple misunderstanding here. The ACP is a contr=
ol plane for *device* management. A device can hold many contexts, as in NF=
V, but they are all managed in a single way. My feeling is we have a discon=
nect somewhere on this level, right?<br>
<br>
Michael<br>
<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gm=
ail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>]<br>
&gt; Sent: 16 October 2015 08:02<br>
&gt; To: Toy, Mehmet &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com">Me=
hmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>&gt;; Michael Behringer<br>
&gt; (mbehring) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.co=
m</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:anima@ietf.org">anima@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On 16/10/2015 16:36, Toy, Mehmet wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; Michael,<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Before I pick each of your statement and express my thoughts, I<b=
r>
&gt; &gt; would like<br>
&gt; to ask more questions by picking your=C2=A0 statement &quot; There is =
*one* ACP,<br>
&gt; there are *many* autonomic functions on top.&quot;.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Assume=
 we=C2=A0 start building<br>
&gt; on this to see how far we can go, whether this holds for all cases or<=
br>
&gt; not, I don&#39;t know.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; If we have two or more ACPs, what could go wrong?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Why would a domain need more than one ACP? (Certainly there might be a=
<br>
&gt; transient situation after a temporary network partition where two ACPs=
<br>
&gt; would &quot;meet&quot; and then need to merge; indeed the ACP needs to=
 be self-<br>
&gt; repairing in such cases.)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; What is it that you are trying to do here? What is the purpose<br=
>
&gt; &gt; behind this<br>
&gt; model?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Provide a secure L3 between all autonomic nodes that is strictly<br>
&gt; independent of the operational data plane. The purpose is to allow<br>
&gt; autonomic operations to work regardless of anything else.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Furthermore, I suggest you to think about ETSI NFV model,<br>
&gt; &gt; &quot;infrastructure&quot; and &quot;VNF&quot; division of networ=
ks.=C2=A0 What is wrong in<br>
&gt; &gt; using that kind of model here which is a reasonable breakdown,<br=
>
&gt;<br>
&gt; We aren&#39;t reinventing NFV, as far as I can tell. If there is a rec=
ent<br>
&gt; technical overview of NFV, that would be interesting to see. But I<br>
&gt; don&#39;t believe that Autonomic Service Agents are at all the same th=
ing as VNFs.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; instead of sticking with ACP=C2=A0 that is becoming very difficul=
t to define?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Huh? draft-ietf-anima-autonomic-control-plane is still work in<br>
&gt; progress but it seems very clearly defined to me. In sketching out how=
<br>
&gt; GRASP will be implemented, I haven&#39;t hit any conceptual problems w=
ith<br>
&gt; the ACP, and its main API will just be socket calls. The only<br>
&gt; complication I found is that it will need to support the Advanced<br>
&gt; Socket API because of some special requirements for link-local<br>
&gt; multicasts. Otherwise, it&#39;s just another virtual<br>
&gt; (loopback) network interface.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Regards<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Thanks<br>
&gt; &gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbeh=
ring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 4:57 AM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: Toy, Mehmet; Brian E Carpenter; <a href=3D"mailto:anima@ietf.=
org">anima@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Toy, thanks for raising those questions. Obviously, we&#39;re not=
 doing<br>
&gt; &gt; a good<br>
&gt; job yet in describing what the ACP is, and that needs to be fixed. And=
<br>
&gt; obviously, we all need the same view to progress further. So this is a=
<br>
&gt; very important discussion, and I really welcome it.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Before formalising better text, let me see whether we get agreeme=
nt<br>
&gt; &gt; on<br>
&gt; the fundamental idea.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; In my head, there are two layers: The ACP, and on top of that the=
<br>
&gt; Autonomic Functions:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; * The ACP is the &quot;tool kit&quot;. It comprises various &quot=
;mechanics&quot;, such<br>
&gt; &gt; as<br>
&gt; negotiation, synchronisation, discovery of various sorts, messaging, e=
tc.<br>
&gt; Those are all based on a common addressing and naming concept.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; * Autonomic Functions use that tool kit to do something clever. I=
n<br>
&gt; &gt; other<br>
&gt; words, the true autonomic &quot;intelligence&quot; sits on that level.=
<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; There is *one* ACP, there are *many* autonomic functions on top.<=
br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; One way to decide to which layer something belongs is to ask: &qu=
ot;is<br>
&gt; &gt; this (1) a<br>
&gt; generic functionality which many functions require, or is this (2) one=
<br>
&gt; specific function?&quot;. If the answer is (1), it belongs into the AC=
P, if<br>
&gt; (2) it belongs into an autonomic function.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; So, in this light, my understanding (!) of fault management is th=
at<br>
&gt; &gt; this is an autonomic function, and would use common blocks of the=
<br>
&gt; &gt; underlying ACP. Conversely, it would not offer services to other<=
br>
&gt; &gt; autonomic functions on top. This is my way of thinking when I wri=
te<br>
&gt; &gt; &quot;this is an autonomic function&quot;.=C2=A0 And I&#39;m not =
100% certain I<br>
&gt; &gt; understand what you&#39;re suggesting, so please chime in here! (=
And I<br>
&gt; &gt; haven&#39;t read your draft fully yet, sorry)<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Look at<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-mana=
gement-01.txt" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">http://tools.ietf.org/i=
d/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-01.txt</a><br>
&gt; &gt; This draft describes &quot;intelligence&quot;. In that case, a wa=
y to<br>
&gt; &gt; automatically<br>
&gt; manage address space. Sections 2.2 and 2.3 explain which parameters<br=
>
&gt; and information exchanges such a function would require. Sheng wrote<b=
r>
&gt; this document to explain how an autonomic function would use a common =
ACP.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Probably we should take some off-line time in Yokohama to discuss=
<br>
&gt; &gt; this in a<br>
&gt; small team?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Michael<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; From: Anima [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org"=
>anima-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Toy,<br>
&gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Sent: 15 October 2015 04:26<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; To: Brian E Carpenter &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter=
@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Michael<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Behringer<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; (mbehring) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring=
@cisco.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:anima@ietf.org">anima@ietf.org</a><br=
>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Michael and Brian,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Per Toerless suggestion, I am including ANIMA group into the =
discussion.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; I re-read the &quot;A Reference Model for Autonomic Networkin=
g&quot; document<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; and I am not clear about the definitions.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; a)=C2=A0 In the &quot;A Reference Model for Autonomic Network=
ing&quot;, ACP is<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; defined as &quot;The Autonomic Control Plane is the summary o=
f all<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; interactions of the Autonomic Networking Infrastructure with =
other<br>
&gt; nodes and services.&quot;.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; b) Brian, you write as &quot; The ACP is common infrastructur=
e for all<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; autonomic functions.(The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of<b=
r>
&gt; &gt;&gt; course.) The signaling protocol is also common infrastructure=
.&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Question: What is ACP? a or b or combination?<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; c) Section 4 in the reference model document , &quot;The Auto=
nomic<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Networking Infrastructure provides a layer of common=C2=A0 fu=
nctionality<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; across an Autonomic Network.=C2=A0 It comprises &quot;must im=
plement&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; functions and services, as well as extensions.&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Question: What are the &quot;must implement&quot; functionali=
ties?=C2=A0 How do<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; you define &quot;must implement&quot; functionalities?<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Thanks<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.car=
penter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:25 PM<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; To: Michael Behringer (mbehring); Toy, Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya=
.com</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@hua=
wei.com</a>&#39;; &#39;anima-<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org">chairs@tools.ietf.or=
g</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; I agree with Michael. The ACP is common infrastructure for al=
l<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; autonomic functions.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; (The ACP needs to be self-repairing, of course.) The signalin=
g<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; protocol is also common infrastructure.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; On 15/10/2015 05:43, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; I would argue they are part of an autonomic function, whi=
ch runs<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; on top of<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; the ACP.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; There are really two different pieces here, and this is I=
 think<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; the confusion<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; here:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; -=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The ACP is self-manag=
ing. It needs to do self-healing, and<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; automatically adapt to new situations. But to me, this isn=E2=
=80=99t fault<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; management or performance management as an operator understan=
ds<br>
&gt; it.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; -=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The network has FM an=
d PM function. Those could be (and should<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; be, imo) autonomic functions. Those run on top of the ACP.<br=
>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Bottom line: I=E2=80=99d like to keep the ACP itself as m=
inimalistic and<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; simple as we<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; possibly can. Functions like FM / PM belong into an autonomic=
<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; function,<br>
&gt; IMO.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; What do you think?<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Michael<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Mehmet_Toy@ca=
ble.comcast.com">Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Sent: 14 October 2015 18:30<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; To: Michael Behringer (mbehring) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mb=
ehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@a=
vaya.com</a>&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.=
com</a>&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huaw=
ei.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@h=
uawei.com</a>&gt;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anim=
a-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-=
chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&gt;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gma=
il.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.=
e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Michael,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Instead of answering the question as Yes or No, let me gi=
ve<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; examples to<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; see what makes sense.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Let=E2=80=99s say in a data path, a router port is failed=
.=C2=A0 The router<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; generates an AIS<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; (Alarm Indication Signal) and the receiving=C2=A0 end generat=
es RDI<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; (remote Defect Indicator).=C2=A0 Both messages are generated =
by the<br>
&gt; hardware, not by a<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; software or ACP.=C2=A0 =C2=A0As a result of this failure,=C2=
=A0 there would be packet loss.<br>
&gt; The<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; hardware counts these losses, an ACP does not.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; For the FM and PM functions above, can we say they are pa=
rt of an ACP?<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:<a href=3D"mai=
lto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:34 AM<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; To: Toy, Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@a=
vaya.com</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng=
@huawei.com</a>&#39;; &#39;anima-<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org">chairs@tools.ietf.or=
g</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.car=
penter@gmail.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Toy,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; To understand better: To me, fault management *uses* the =
functions<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; of<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; the AN infrastructure. It uses the ACP to communicate, maybe =
GRASP<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; for some signalling, might be influenced by Intent, etc. Righ=
t?=C2=A0 So<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; to me, this is a logical component of an autonomic network th=
at<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; sits on top of the AN infrastructure.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Do we agree?<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Michael<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Mehmet_Toy@ca=
ble.comcast.com">Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Sent: 13 October 2015 23:46<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.=
com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com<=
/a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@a=
vaya.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.=
com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com<=
/a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@=
huawei.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@h=
uawei.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng=
@huawei.com</a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima=
-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-=
chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ie=
tf.org">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian=
.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.=
e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gma=
il.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Michael,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Appreciate the reply.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; FM is part of data plane and control plane (i.e. ANI in y=
our diagram).<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; My plan is to add a short paragraph for now either to sec=
tion 2 to<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; expand<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; the description=C2=A0 of ANI or to section 4 to add a sub-sec=
tion for<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Fault Management.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; It is also possible too add a Performance Management sect=
ion to<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; describe<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; what types of measurements and where and how are used.=C2=A0 =
Although<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; there is a control feedback related measurement in the docume=
nt, I<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; don=E2=80=99t know if it is adequate.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; From: Michael Behringer (mbehring) [mailto:<a href=3D"mai=
lto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 12:27 PM<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; To: Toy, Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@a=
vaya.com</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng=
@huawei.com</a>&#39;; &#39;anima-<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org">chairs@tools.ietf.or=
g</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.car=
penter@gmail.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Sorry for the delay, it=E2=80=99s very busy at the moment=
 here.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; To me, fault management refers generally to faults on the=
 data<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; plane, ie for<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; user traffic. I see that happening at some point as an autono=
mic<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; function (or several, for different aspects). Would you agree=
? Or<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; do you see that as a function inside the AN infrastructure?<b=
r>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; So my feeling is that function would reside on top of the=
<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; infrastructure that<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; we=E2=80=99re currently defining. So, please have a look whet=
her your<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; thoughts can be described as an autonomic function. I think t=
hey<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; probably<br>
&gt; can.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Then I suggest we do the same that we=E2=80=99re planning=
 to do with the<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; NMS<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; section, the model discussion, etc: Have a short paragraph de=
scribe<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; the overall topic briefly, and point to an external doc for n=
ow,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; i.e., probably your draft.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; If you agree, can you suggest where in the reference mode=
l you<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; would add<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; a short paragraph about fault management, and I suppose we=E2=
=80=99d point<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; to your draft, right?<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Michael<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Mehmet_Toy@ca=
ble.comcast.com">Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Sent: 13 October 2015 03:53<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; To: Michael Behringer (mbehring)<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.=
com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com<=
/a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@a=
vaya.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.=
com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com<=
/a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@=
huawei.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@h=
uawei.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng=
@huawei.com</a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima=
-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-=
chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ie=
tf.org">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian=
.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.=
e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gma=
il.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Mike,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; I am waiting for your response.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; From: Toy, Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 8:13 PM<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; To: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@c=
isco.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@a=
vaya.com</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng=
@huawei.com</a>&#39;; &#39;anima-<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:chairs@tools.ietf.org">chairs@tools.ietf.or=
g</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.car=
penter@gmail.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Mike,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; I can send you some text to include in section 2 and 4 of=
=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CA<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Reference<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Model for Autonomic Networking,=C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-behringer-a=
nima-reference-<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; model-03=E2=80=9D,=C2=A0 per Sheng=E2=80=99s suggestion.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Should I just do that?<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; From: Toy, Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 7:53 AM<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; To: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsh=
eng@huawei.com</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org=
">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&#39;;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.c=
arpenter@gmail.com</a>&#39;; &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbe=
hring@cisco.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Cc: &#39;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@a=
vaya.com</a>&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Sheng,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Appreciate a quick response.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; I will work on your suggestion.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@hu=
awei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 06:08 AM Eastern Standar=
d Time<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; To: Toy, Mehmet;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chai=
rs@tools.ietf.org</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.o=
rg">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-=
chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ie=
tf.org">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.ca=
rpenter@gmail.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.c=
om">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.=
e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gma=
il.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com<=
/a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&=
gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.=
com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com<=
/a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; (<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com=
</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a>=
&gt;)<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.=
com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com<=
/a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: RE: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Hi, Toy,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; First of all, for my understanding, your work is in the s=
cope of<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; the WG<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; charter. However, we do not have work item or milestone for i=
t. It<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; looks like an upper-layer autonomic service agent for me. In =
our<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; plan, autonomic service agents are mainly for the next period=
,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; which is after re-charter (this is the same with your suggest=
ion of<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; modifying the charter, but it cannot happen until we deliver =
the<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; current milestones). For now, the best may be try to add some=
<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; description, maybe mainly abstracted functionality, into the<=
br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; reference<br>
&gt; model document.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Best regards,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Sheng<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; From: Toy, Mehmet [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Mehmet_Toy@ca=
ble.comcast.com">Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 1:14 AM<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; To:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org">anima-chai=
rs@tools.ietf.org</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:anima-chairs@tools.ietf.o=
rg">anima-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.ca=
rpenter@gmail.com</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.c=
om">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com<=
/a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com</a>&=
gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Cc: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; (<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com=
</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a>=
&gt;)<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: Self-Managed Networks<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Dear All:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; I couldn=E2=80=99t attend the Prague meeting, but luckily=
 Dan was able to<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; present<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; my slides on =E2=80=9CSelf-Managed Networks with Fault Manage=
ment<br>
&gt; Hierarchy=E2=80=9D.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; The feedback was to position the work in the ANIMA WG scope a=
nd<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; framework.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; ANIMA charter in =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et. al., A Refere=
nce Model for<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Autonomic<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Networking<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; draft-behringer-anima-reference-model-03=E2=80=9D refers =
to =E2=80=9Cself-healing=E2=80=9D.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; RFC7575,=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CM. Behringer, et al.,=C2=A0 =C2=A0Aut=
onomic Networking: Definitions and<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Design Goals=E2=80=9D,=C2=A0 refers to =E2=80=9Cself-manageme=
nt=E2=80=9D. However, both<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; documents do not=C2=A0 articulate fault management aspect of =
the self-management.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; It is possible to interpret the fault management aspect of<br=
>
&gt; &gt;&gt; autonomic networks as part of =E2=80=9Cself-healing=E2=80=9D =
and therefore as part<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; of the ANIMA charter.=C2=A0 In that case, the =E2=80=9CArchit=
ectural Framework<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; for Self-Managed Networks with Fault Management Hierarchy,<br=
>
&gt; &gt;&gt; draft-mtoy-anima-self-faultmang-framework-<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; 00.txt=E2=80=9D contribution can target to fill that gap.=C2=
=A0 The control<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; plane aspect of self-healing is addressed by =E2=80=9CM. Behr=
inger, et al.,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; An Autonomic Control Plane,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-control-plane-03=E2=80=9D.=C2=
=A0 I believe these<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; contributions are complementary to each other. I can try to a=
ddress<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; that<br>
&gt; in the contribution.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Please let me know if you agree with me. If not, I sugges=
t to<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; modify the<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; charter since without covering fault management aspect of the=
<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; autonomic networks, the concept of autonomic network will be<=
br>
&gt; incomplete.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Mehmet<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Anima mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima" targe=
t=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima=
</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Anima mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima" target=3D"_blank" r=
el=3D"noreferrer">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail_sig=
nature"><div>regards,</div><div>John</div></div>
</div>

--001a1141d9f06cae870522690897--


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From: "Jason Coleman (colemaj)" <colemaj@cisco.com>
To: John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com>, "Toy, Mehmet" <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
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Organization: Alcatel-Lucent Bell Labs France
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Subject: [Anima] Fwd: [nmrg] IETF94 / 38th NMRG meeting - Call for Contributions on Managing Networks of Adaptive and Cooperative Agents
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Dear ANIMA fans,

The call for the next NMRG meeting in Yokohama might be of interest to you.

Thanks, Laurent.


-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: 	[nmrg] IETF94 / 38th NMRG meeting - Call for Contributions on 
Managing Networks of Adaptive and Cooperative Agents
Date: 	Mon, 19 Oct 2015 15:23:15 +0200
From: 	Laurent Ciavaglia <Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>
Organization: 	Alcatel-Lucent Bell Labs France
To: 	nmrg@irtf.org <nmrg@irtf.org>



Dear NMRG community,

On behalf of the NMRG Chairs, please find below a call for contributions 
for the upcoming NMRG meeting during IETF94 week in Yokohama.

Thanks, best regards, Laurent.


         ***  CALL FOR CONTRIBUTIONS  ***
*Managing Networks of Adaptive and Cooperative Agents*

As communication networks become more capable and more autonomous, new 
challenges arise for their (self-)organization and (self-)operation.
How can management adapt and cope with the increased dynamicity and 
versatility introduced by networks composed of adaptive and cooperative 
agents?
This 38th NMRG meeting aims at exploring new techniques and approaches, 
from various disciplines, addressing (but not limited to) the following 
questions and challenges:
     -How to steer the global network behavior resulting from 
self-organization where agents have their own goals and actions?
     -What could be the role of intent-based networking in situation 
where the system's goal "emerges" from the agents interactions?
     -How to build and leverage the knowledge produced at the micro 
(agent) and macro (network) levels? How to correlate and make sense out 
of measurements and data from heterogeneous sources?
     -How to verify and test the behavior of systems with the intrinsic 
faculty of adapting to changing conditions?
     -How to make the operations scale? To which extent are the new 
techniques and solutions actionable, "computable"...?
     -What coordination schemes could be designed to both take benefits 
from the agents' built-in ability to cooperate and guarantee an overall 
safe network operation in the presence of different (sometimes 
conflicting) goals?
     -How can the management techniques leverage on the new properties 
and features introduced by adaptive and cooperative agents, i.e. 
applying the same techniques to the management plane itself.

The main goal of the meeting is to identify topics of high interest for 
further research and investigations by the network management community, 
highlighting the potential needs for future standardization.
To this end, the meeting will have a few short presentations and 
hopefully enough time for open and fruitful discussions    .
Please send your proposal for presentation to the NMRG mailing list and 
kindly include:
     Topic:
     Presenter name:
     Time requested:
     Brief description of the topic:
     Pointer to references (internet draft(s), paper(s), website...) if 
any:

The 38th NMRG meeting will take place on Monday, November 2, 2015 - from 
17:10 to 19:10 - in room 413.

***



-- 

Bien cordialement, Best regards,

*Laurent Ciavaglia*

Secure Cloud Networking

Bell Labs | Alcatel Lucent

phone: +33 160 402 636

email: laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com 
<mailto:laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>

linkedin: laurentciavaglia <http://fr.linkedin.com/in/laurentciavaglia/>

address: Route de Villejust | 91620 Nozay | France




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    <font face="Courier New">Dear ANIMA fans,<br>
      <br>
      The call for the next NMRG meeting in Yokohama might be of
      interest to you.<br>
      <br>
      Thanks, Laurent.<br>
    </font>
    <div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
      <br>
      -------- Forwarded Message --------
      <table class="moz-email-headers-table" border="0" cellpadding="0"
        cellspacing="0">
        <tbody>
          <tr>
            <th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">Subject:
            </th>
            <td>[nmrg] IETF94 / 38th NMRG meeting - Call for
              Contributions on Managing Networks of Adaptive and
              Cooperative Agents</td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">Date: </th>
            <td>Mon, 19 Oct 2015 15:23:15 +0200</td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">From: </th>
            <td>Laurent Ciavaglia
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com">&lt;Laurent.Ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com&gt;</a></td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">Organization:
            </th>
            <td>Alcatel-Lucent Bell Labs France</td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">To: </th>
            <td><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:nmrg@irtf.org">nmrg@irtf.org</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nmrg@irtf.org">&lt;nmrg@irtf.org&gt;</a></td>
          </tr>
        </tbody>
      </table>
      <br>
      <br>
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
        charset=windows-1252">
      <font face="Courier New">Dear NMRG community,<br>
        <br>
        On behalf of the NMRG Chairs, please find below a call for
        contributions for the upcoming NMRG meeting during IETF94 week
        in Yokohama.<br>
        <br>
        Thanks, best regards, Laurent.<br>
        <br>
        <br>
                ***  CALL FOR CONTRIBUTIONS  ***<br>
        <b>Managing Networks of Adaptive and Cooperative Agents</b><br>
        <br>
        As communication networks become more capable and more
        autonomous, new challenges arise for their (self-)organization
        and (self-)operation.<br>
        How can management adapt and cope with the increased dynamicity
        and versatility introduced by networks composed of adaptive and
        cooperative agents?<br>
        This 38th NMRG meeting aims at exploring new techniques and
        approaches, from various disciplines, addressing (but not
        limited to) the following questions and challenges:<br>
            -How to steer the global network behavior resulting from
        self-organization where agents have their own goals and actions?<br>
            -What could be the role of intent-based networking in
        situation where the system's goal "emerges" from the agents
        interactions?<br>
            -How to build and leverage the knowledge produced at the
        micro (agent) and macro (network) levels? How to correlate and
        make sense out of measurements and data from heterogeneous
        sources?<br>
            -How to verify and test the behavior of systems with the
        intrinsic faculty of adapting to changing conditions?<br>
            -How to make the operations scale? To which extent are the
        new techniques and solutions actionable, "computable"...?<br>
            -What coordination schemes could be designed to both take
        benefits from the agents' built-in ability to cooperate and
        guarantee an overall safe network operation in the presence of
        different (sometimes conflicting) goals?<br>
            -How can the management techniques leverage on the new
        properties and features introduced by adaptive and cooperative
        agents, i.e. applying the same techniques to the management
        plane itself.<br>
        <br>
        The main goal of the meeting is to identify topics of high
        interest for further research and investigations by the network
        management community, highlighting the potential needs for
        future standardization.<br>
        To this end, the meeting will have a few short presentations and
        hopefully enough time for open and fruitful discussions    .<br>
        Please send your proposal for presentation to the NMRG mailing
        list and kindly include:<br>
            Topic:<br>
            Presenter name:<br>
            Time requested:<br>
            Brief description of the topic:<br>
            Pointer to references (internet draft(s), paper(s),
        website...) if any: <br>
      </font><br>
      <font face="Courier New"><font face="Courier New">The 38th NMRG
          meeting will take place on Monday, November 2, 2015 - from
          17:10 to 19:10 - in room 413.<br>
          <br>
        </font>***<br>
        <br>
      </font>
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From nobody Mon Oct 19 08:23:41 2015
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
 This draft is a work item of the Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and Approach Working Group of the IETF.

        Title           : Bootstrapping Key Infrastructures
        Authors         : Max Pritikin
                          Michael C. Richardson
                          Michael H. Behringer
                          Steinthor Bjarnason
	Filename        : draft-ietf-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra-01.txt
	Pages           : 34
	Date            : 2015-10-18

Abstract:
   This document specifies automated bootstrapping of an key
   infrastructure using vendor installed IEEE 802.1AR manufacturing
   installed certificates, in combination with a vendor based service on
   the Internet.  Before being authenticated, a new device has only
   link-local connectivity, and does not require a routable address.
   When a vendor provides an Internet based service, devices can be
   forced to join only specific domains but in limited/disconnected
   networks or legacy environments we describe a variety of options that
   allow bootstrapping to proceed.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra-01

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra-01


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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Content-Type: text/plain


John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com> wrote:
    > When an autonomic system self-heals, why would the operator need to
    > know? This is comparable to routing doing its job and changing the
    > path. There is no reason that the operator has to be alerted on every
    > change in the system - there are already WAY TOO MANY of these for the
    > operator to handle.

Yes, but just the same, the healing activity needs to be an audited event.
The ACP should be involved in capturing these events.

Sometimes things don't heal perfectly; often moving traffic from
one system to another causes a load spike, and while things continue to
function, the performance is different.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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From nobody Mon Oct 19 11:58:49 2015
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Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 19:58:41 +0100
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From: Reddy Pallavali <f80077@ulusofona.pt>
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] [ANIMA] Self-Managed Networks
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--f46d04428ccedce80e052279bb34
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Michael,

Yes, for every small issue there is no need to contact operator except, if
it is a complex one.
Even for self-healing we can use Swarm Intelligence or Artificial
Intelligence techniques, but for learning may take some time. However,
these are scalable techniques.
Here, also there is a need of consensus, if the system is fully distributed
and asynchronous need to know which object is crashed, how to schedule the
loads and coverage issues as well.

On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 6:39 PM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
wrote:

>
> John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com> wrote:
>     > When an autonomic system self-heals, why would the operator need to
>     > know? This is comparable to routing doing its job and changing the
>     > path. There is no reason that the operator has to be alerted on every
>     > change in the system - there are already WAY TOO MANY of these for
> the
>     > operator to handle.
>
> Yes, but just the same, the healing activity needs to be an audited event.
> The ACP should be involved in capturing these events.
>
> Sometimes things don't heal perfectly; often moving traffic from
> one system to another causes a load spike, and while things continue to
> function, the performance is different.
>
> --
> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
>  -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>
>


-- 
Thank you very much for your time and consideration.


Yours sincerely,

P Radha Krishna Reddy, M.Sc, M.Tech,

Junior Researcher/Ph.D Student,

COPE LABS, Universidade Lusofona, Lisboa - Portugal.
Author of: Security Issues of Cloud Computing over General & IT Sector
Mobile: +351923095671
www.prkreddy.webs.com
http://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/

--f46d04428ccedce80e052279bb34
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div>Michael,<br><br></div>Yes, for every small =
issue there is no need to contact operator except, if it is a complex one.<=
br></div>Even for self-healing we can use Swarm Intelligence or Artificial =
Intelligence techniques, but for learning may take some time. However, thes=
e are scalable techniques.<br></div>Here, also there is a need of consensus=
, if the system is fully distributed and asynchronous need to know which ob=
ject is crashed, how to schedule the loads and coverage issues as well.<br>=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct=
 19, 2015 at 6:39 PM, Michael Richardson <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca" target=3D"_blank">mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca</a>&gt=
;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D""><br>
John Strassner &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:strazpdj@gmail.com">strazpdj@gmail.com=
</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; When an autonomic system self-heals, why would the opera=
tor need to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; know? This is comparable to routing doing its job and ch=
anging the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; path. There is no reason that the operator has to be ale=
rted on every<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; change in the system - there are already WAY TOO MANY of=
 these for the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; operator to handle.<br>
<br>
</span>Yes, but just the same, the healing activity needs to be an audited =
event.<br>
The ACP should be involved in capturing these events.<br>
<br>
Sometimes things don&#39;t heal perfectly; often moving traffic from<br>
one system to another causes a load spike, and while things continue to<br>
function, the performance is different.<br>
<br>
--<br>
Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr%2BIETF@sandelman.ca">mcr+IETF@=
sandelman.ca</a>&gt;, Sandelman Software Works<br>
=C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Anima mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail=
_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:&quot;Cambria&qu=
ot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Thank you very much for your time and
consideration.</span><p style=3D"text-align:justify"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,&quot;serif&quot=
;"><br></span></p>

<p style=3D"text-align:justify;line-height:normal"><span style=3D"font-size=
:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Yours sincerely,=
</span></p>

<p style=3D"line-height:normal;text-align:left"><span style=3D"font-size:12=
.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">P Radha Krishna Red=
dy, M.Sc, M.Tech,<br></span></p><p style=3D"line-height:normal;text-align:l=
eft"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,&quot;=
serif&quot;">Junior Researcher/Ph.D Student,</span></p><p style=3D"line-hei=
ght:normal;text-align:left"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Cambria&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">COPE LABS, Universidade Lusofona, Lisbo=
a - Portugal.<br></span></p>

Author of: Security Issues of Cloud Computing over General &amp; IT Sector<=
br>Mobile: +351923095671<br><a>www.prkreddy.webs.com</a> <br><a href=3D"htt=
p://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/" target=3D"_blank">http://pt.linkedi=
n.com/in/reddypallavali/</a><br></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>

--f46d04428ccedce80e052279bb34--


From nobody Mon Oct 19 12:05:13 2015
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To: reddy.pallavali@ulusofona.pt, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
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From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 15:04:45 -0400
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Cc: Anima WG <anima@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Anima] [ANIMA] Self-Managed Networks
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There are at least two different factors to consider in terms of what 
events are communicated to the operator.

First, for initial deployment of autonomic technologies, operators will 
want ways to observe all the events so they can gain confidence in the 
technology.  (We received these requests with existing self-organizing 
network technologies.)

Secondly, different operators have different degrees of information 
harvesting and display relative to the state of the network.  Even if 
the network is taking care of itself perfectly, some operators will want 
visibility to any internal state change.  These operators currently 
monitor their routing protocol state for similar effects.

Yours,
Joel

On 10/19/15 2:58 PM, Reddy Pallavali wrote:
> Michael,
>
> Yes, for every small issue there is no need to contact operator except,
> if it is a complex one.
> Even for self-healing we can use Swarm Intelligence or Artificial
> Intelligence techniques, but for learning may take some time. However,
> these are scalable techniques.
> Here, also there is a need of consensus, if the system is fully
> distributed and asynchronous need to know which object is crashed, how
> to schedule the loads and coverage issues as well.
>
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 6:39 PM, Michael Richardson
> <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca <mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>> wrote:
>
>
>     John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com <mailto:strazpdj@gmail.com>> wrote:
>          > When an autonomic system self-heals, why would the operator
>     need to
>          > know? This is comparable to routing doing its job and
>     changing the
>          > path. There is no reason that the operator has to be alerted
>     on every
>          > change in the system - there are already WAY TOO MANY of
>     these for the
>          > operator to handle.
>
>     Yes, but just the same, the healing activity needs to be an audited
>     event.
>     The ACP should be involved in capturing these events.
>
>     Sometimes things don't heal perfectly; often moving traffic from
>     one system to another causes a load spike, and while things continue to
>     function, the performance is different.
>
>     --
>     Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca
>     <mailto:mcr%2BIETF@sandelman.ca>>, Sandelman Software Works
>       -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-
>
>
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Anima mailing list
>     Anima@ietf.org <mailto:Anima@ietf.org>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>
>
>
>
> --
> Thank you very much for your time and consideration.
>
>
> Yours sincerely,
>
> P Radha Krishna Reddy, M.Sc, M.Tech,
>
> Junior Researcher/Ph.D Student,
>
> COPE LABS, Universidade Lusofona, Lisboa - Portugal.
>
> Author of: Security Issues of Cloud Computing over General & IT Sector
> Mobile: +351923095671
> www.prkreddy.webs.com
> http://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>


From nobody Mon Oct 19 12:27:21 2015
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To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, Anima WG <anima@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] [ANIMA] Self-Managed Networks
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On 20/10/2015 06:39, Michael Richardson wrote:
> 
> John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com> wrote:
>     > When an autonomic system self-heals, why would the operator need to
>     > know? This is comparable to routing doing its job and changing the
>     > path. There is no reason that the operator has to be alerted on every
>     > change in the system - there are already WAY TOO MANY of these for the
>     > operator to handle.
> 
> Yes, but just the same, the healing activity needs to be an audited event.

Yes, but logging for later analysis please, not for annoying the operator.
Also, in the ideal world, the system should be capable of alerting the
operators  when a large number of healing events have occurred in the same
geographical area, or when a particular component is involved in multiple
events.

> The ACP should be involved in capturing these events.

The ACP? It's just a communication layer. I'm thinking we would model fault
monitoring as an ASA that collects fault data for logging and analysis.
We can model fault notifications as GRASP synchronization objectives that
look like ["notify",..,<some data structure describing the fault>].
Any ASA that wanted to report a fault would simply synch it to any ASA
that wanted to log it.

(OK, I am trying to verify that the GRASP hammer can be used for this
particular nail.)

> Sometimes things don't heal perfectly; often moving traffic from
> one system to another causes a load spike, and while things continue to
> function, the performance is different.

Indeed. But analysing that is a separate function from healing and reporting.

   Brian


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To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, reddy.pallavali@ulusofona.pt, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
References: <CAJwYUrENRnr28LmQyY379b6EAySPGxm99FX4XU3wo16Qt9ssCg@mail.gmail.com> <29518.1445276383@sandelman.ca> <CAC0HMNQekHEBe9gJ7ST=iXmjboSrwthCQSgpWY_JY09tDabOYQ@mail.gmail.com> <56253ECD.9010701@joelhalpern.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] [ANIMA] Self-Managed Networks
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On 20/10/2015 08:04, Joel M. Halpern wrote:
> There are at least two different factors to consider in terms of what events are communicated to the operator.
> 
> First, for initial deployment of autonomic technologies, operators will want ways to observe all the events so they can gain
> confidence in the technology.  (We received these requests with existing self-organizing network technologies.)
> 
> Secondly, different operators have different degrees of information harvesting and display relative to the state of the
> network.  Even if the network is taking care of itself perfectly, some operators will want visibility to any internal state
> change.  These operators currently monitor their routing protocol state for similar effects.

What I get from this is a requirement that all ASAs are capable of notifying events,
but whether and how those events are reported live to operators is a separate issue.

(However, I have never forgotten that at Three Mile Island, the system was so busy
reporting minor alarms that it took hours before the underlying alarm message
saying what was really wrong got printed. TMI, indeed.)

   Brian

> 
> Yours,
> Joel
> 
> On 10/19/15 2:58 PM, Reddy Pallavali wrote:
>> Michael,
>>
>> Yes, for every small issue there is no need to contact operator except,
>> if it is a complex one.
>> Even for self-healing we can use Swarm Intelligence or Artificial
>> Intelligence techniques, but for learning may take some time. However,
>> these are scalable techniques.
>> Here, also there is a need of consensus, if the system is fully
>> distributed and asynchronous need to know which object is crashed, how
>> to schedule the loads and coverage issues as well.
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 6:39 PM, Michael Richardson
>> <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca <mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>     John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com <mailto:strazpdj@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>          > When an autonomic system self-heals, why would the operator
>>     need to
>>          > know? This is comparable to routing doing its job and
>>     changing the
>>          > path. There is no reason that the operator has to be alerted
>>     on every
>>          > change in the system - there are already WAY TOO MANY of
>>     these for the
>>          > operator to handle.
>>
>>     Yes, but just the same, the healing activity needs to be an audited
>>     event.
>>     The ACP should be involved in capturing these events.
>>
>>     Sometimes things don't heal perfectly; often moving traffic from
>>     one system to another causes a load spike, and while things continue to
>>     function, the performance is different.
>>
>>     --
>>     Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca
>>     <mailto:mcr%2BIETF@sandelman.ca>>, Sandelman Software Works
>>       -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     Anima mailing list
>>     Anima@ietf.org <mailto:Anima@ietf.org>
>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Thank you very much for your time and consideration.
>>
>>
>> Yours sincerely,
>>
>> P Radha Krishna Reddy, M.Sc, M.Tech,
>>
>> Junior Researcher/Ph.D Student,
>>
>> COPE LABS, Universidade Lusofona, Lisboa - Portugal.
>>
>> Author of: Security Issues of Cloud Computing over General & IT Sector
>> Mobile: +351923095671
>> www.prkreddy.webs.com
>> http://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> 


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To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, reddy.pallavali@ulusofona.pt, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
References: <CAJwYUrENRnr28LmQyY379b6EAySPGxm99FX4XU3wo16Qt9ssCg@mail.gmail.com> <29518.1445276383@sandelman.ca> <CAC0HMNQekHEBe9gJ7ST=iXmjboSrwthCQSgpWY_JY09tDabOYQ@mail.gmail.com> <56253ECD.9010701@joelhalpern.com> <562545FC.5060905@gmail.com>
From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] [ANIMA] Self-Managed Networks
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Agreed that being able to turn off notifications is as important as 
being able to turn them on.

Yours,
Joel

On 10/19/15 3:35 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> On 20/10/2015 08:04, Joel M. Halpern wrote:
>> There are at least two different factors to consider in terms of what events are communicated to the operator.
>>
>> First, for initial deployment of autonomic technologies, operators will want ways to observe all the events so they can gain
>> confidence in the technology.  (We received these requests with existing self-organizing network technologies.)
>>
>> Secondly, different operators have different degrees of information harvesting and display relative to the state of the
>> network.  Even if the network is taking care of itself perfectly, some operators will want visibility to any internal state
>> change.  These operators currently monitor their routing protocol state for similar effects.
>
> What I get from this is a requirement that all ASAs are capable of notifying events,
> but whether and how those events are reported live to operators is a separate issue.
>
> (However, I have never forgotten that at Three Mile Island, the system was so busy
> reporting minor alarms that it took hours before the underlying alarm message
> saying what was really wrong got printed. TMI, indeed.)
>
>     Brian
>
>>
>> Yours,
>> Joel
>>
>> On 10/19/15 2:58 PM, Reddy Pallavali wrote:
>>> Michael,
>>>
>>> Yes, for every small issue there is no need to contact operator except,
>>> if it is a complex one.
>>> Even for self-healing we can use Swarm Intelligence or Artificial
>>> Intelligence techniques, but for learning may take some time. However,
>>> these are scalable techniques.
>>> Here, also there is a need of consensus, if the system is fully
>>> distributed and asynchronous need to know which object is crashed, how
>>> to schedule the loads and coverage issues as well.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 6:39 PM, Michael Richardson
>>> <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca <mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>      John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com <mailto:strazpdj@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>           > When an autonomic system self-heals, why would the operator
>>>      need to
>>>           > know? This is comparable to routing doing its job and
>>>      changing the
>>>           > path. There is no reason that the operator has to be alerted
>>>      on every
>>>           > change in the system - there are already WAY TOO MANY of
>>>      these for the
>>>           > operator to handle.
>>>
>>>      Yes, but just the same, the healing activity needs to be an audited
>>>      event.
>>>      The ACP should be involved in capturing these events.
>>>
>>>      Sometimes things don't heal perfectly; often moving traffic from
>>>      one system to another causes a load spike, and while things continue to
>>>      function, the performance is different.
>>>
>>>      --
>>>      Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca
>>>      <mailto:mcr%2BIETF@sandelman.ca>>, Sandelman Software Works
>>>        -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>      _______________________________________________
>>>      Anima mailing list
>>>      Anima@ietf.org <mailto:Anima@ietf.org>
>>>      https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Thank you very much for your time and consideration.
>>>
>>>
>>> Yours sincerely,
>>>
>>> P Radha Krishna Reddy, M.Sc, M.Tech,
>>>
>>> Junior Researcher/Ph.D Student,
>>>
>>> COPE LABS, Universidade Lusofona, Lisboa - Portugal.
>>>
>>> Author of: Security Issues of Cloud Computing over General & IT Sector
>>> Mobile: +351923095671
>>> www.prkreddy.webs.com
>>> http://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Anima mailing list
>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>
>


From nobody Mon Oct 19 12:55:36 2015
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--=-=-=
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Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
    >> John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com> wrote:
    >> > When an autonomic system self-heals, why would the operator need to
    >> > know? This is comparable to routing doing its job and changing the
    >> > path. There is no reason that the operator has to be alerted on every
    >> > change in the system - there are already WAY TOO MANY of these for the
    >> > operator to handle.
    >>
    >> Yes, but just the same, the healing activity needs to be an audited event.

    > Yes, but logging for later analysis please, not for annoying the operator.
    > Also, in the ideal world, the system should be capable of alerting the
    > operators  when a large number of healing events have occurred in the same
    > geographical area, or when a particular component is involved in multiple
    > events.

    >> The ACP should be involved in capturing these events.

    > The ACP? It's just a communication layer. I'm thinking we would model fault
    > monitoring as an ASA that collects fault data for logging and analysis.

The audit events need to use the ACP addresses.
The ACP is replacing "craft" console terminals which normally would be
plugged into serial console servers that capture all the traffic to a log
file.

The ACP has to be used because it is self-healing and is "out-of-band", and
the event may well be about a failure of the primary communication layer.
Note that I said to use the ACP *addresses* --- given primary communication
layer routing of those addresses, and things like MPTCP, it could well be
that the traffic travels over the primary links.  I also take your Three-Mile
Island comment seriously:  the ACP may well have to provide some different
qualities of service, some way to reserve bandwidth, and if implemented as
tunnels, may have to request/reserve bandwidth for itself.

    > We can model fault notifications as GRASP synchronization objectives that
    > look like ["notify",..,<some data structure describing the fault>].
    > Any ASA that wanted to report a fault would simply synch it to any ASA
    > that wanted to log it.

    > (OK, I am trying to verify that the GRASP hammer can be used for this
    > particular nail.)

I don't really care what the communication protocol is, and neither should
the ACP.  The ACP is, as you said, a communication layer.

GRASP is a protocol, and other than finding the right end-point for the
auditable event logger (and perhaps the format/protocol to use), I don't
think GRASP should be involved.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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From nobody Mon Oct 19 16:46:52 2015
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Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 16:46:47 -0700
From: Toerless Eckert <eckert@cisco.com>
To: anima@ietf.org
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Subject: [Anima] New Version Notification for draft-eckert-anima-stable-connectivity-02.txt
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Upladed new version with minor changes:


      02: Updated references.

      02: Modified ULA text to not suggest ULA-C as much better anymore,
          but still mention it.

      02: Added explanation why no IPv4 for ACP.

These changes are meant to reflect the discussion we had on the list.

Cheers
    Toerless


In-Reply-To: <20151019194934.24904.90533.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>

On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 12:49:34PM -0700, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> 
> A new version of I-D, draft-eckert-anima-stable-connectivity-02.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Toerless Eckert and posted to the
> IETF repository.
> 
> Name:		draft-eckert-anima-stable-connectivity
> Revision:	02
> Title:		Using Autonomic Control Plane for Stable Connectivity of Network OAM
> Document date:	2015-10-19
> Group:		Individual Submission
> Pages:		16
> URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-eckert-anima-stable-connectivity-02.txt
> Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eckert-anima-stable-connectivity/
> Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-eckert-anima-stable-connectivity-02
> Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-eckert-anima-stable-connectivity-02
> 
> Abstract:
>    OAM (Operations, Administration and Management) processes for data
>    networks are often subject to the problem of circular dependencies
>    when relying on network connectivity of the network to be managed for
>    the OAM operations itself.  Provisioning during device/network bring
>    up tends to be far less easy to automate than service provisioning
>    later on, changes in core network functions impacting reachability
>    can not be automated either because of ongoing connectivity
>    requirements for the OAM equipment itself, and widely used OAM
>    protocols are not secure enough to be carried across the network
>    without security concerns.
> 
>    This document describes how to integrate OAM processes with the
>    autonomic control plane (ACP) in Autonomic Networks (AN). to provide
>    stable and secure connectivity for those OAM processes.
> 
>                                                                                   
> 
> 
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
> 
> The IETF Secretariat

-- 
---
Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com


From nobody Mon Oct 19 17:31:00 2015
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To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
References: <CAJwYUrENRnr28LmQyY379b6EAySPGxm99FX4XU3wo16Qt9ssCg@mail.gmail.com> <29518.1445276383@sandelman.ca> <56254391.9040205@gmail.com> <7404.1445284516@sandelman.ca>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
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Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 13:30:54 +1300
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Subject: Re: [Anima] [ANIMA] Self-Managed Networks
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On 20/10/2015 08:55, Michael Richardson wrote:
> 
> Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
>     >> John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com> wrote:
>     >> > When an autonomic system self-heals, why would the operator need to
>     >> > know? This is comparable to routing doing its job and changing the
>     >> > path. There is no reason that the operator has to be alerted on every
>     >> > change in the system - there are already WAY TOO MANY of these for the
>     >> > operator to handle.
>     >>
>     >> Yes, but just the same, the healing activity needs to be an audited event.
> 
>     > Yes, but logging for later analysis please, not for annoying the operator.
>     > Also, in the ideal world, the system should be capable of alerting the
>     > operators  when a large number of healing events have occurred in the same
>     > geographical area, or when a particular component is involved in multiple
>     > events.
> 
>     >> The ACP should be involved in capturing these events.
> 
>     > The ACP? It's just a communication layer. I'm thinking we would model fault
>     > monitoring as an ASA that collects fault data for logging and analysis.
> 
> The audit events need to use the ACP addresses.

Yes, but it also needs device IDs I think. Remember that ACP addresses
are constructed autonomically and don't necessarily map to physical
topology in the same way as data plane addresses. And during a major
outage they might be ephemeral.

> The ACP is replacing "craft" console terminals which normally would be
> plugged into serial console servers that capture all the traffic to a log
> file.
> 
> The ACP has to be used because it is self-healing and is "out-of-band", and
> the event may well be about a failure of the primary communication layer.
> Note that I said to use the ACP *addresses* --- given primary communication
> layer routing of those addresses, and things like MPTCP, it could well be
> that the traffic travels over the primary links.  I also take your Three-Mile
> Island comment seriously:  the ACP may well have to provide some different
> qualities of service, some way to reserve bandwidth, and if implemented as
> tunnels, may have to request/reserve bandwidth for itself.
> 
>     > We can model fault notifications as GRASP synchronization objectives that
>     > look like ["notify",..,<some data structure describing the fault>].
>     > Any ASA that wanted to report a fault would simply synch it to any ASA
>     > that wanted to log it.
> 
>     > (OK, I am trying to verify that the GRASP hammer can be used for this
>     > particular nail.)
> 
> I don't really care what the communication protocol is, and neither should
> the ACP.  The ACP is, as you said, a communication layer.
> 
> GRASP is a protocol, and other than finding the right end-point for the
> auditable event logger (and perhaps the format/protocol to use), I don't
> think GRASP should be involved.

I am concerned that a lowest common denominator ASA written by a junior
programmer in a high level language supports event logging. So I do see a
case for making GRASP a possible carrier for event logging. This certainly
doesn't exclude using existing event logging for any case where it's
applicable.

  Brian


From nobody Mon Oct 19 17:56:21 2015
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To: Anima WG <anima@ietf.org>
From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
Message-ID: <56259132.2020806@joelhalpern.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 20:56:18 -0400
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I am trying to make sure I understand what we mean by intent, and how 
things can be realized.

Is a statement like "in the case of congestion / contention, gold 
customers should get better service than others, but no customer may be 
starved" an example of the kind of intent we want to handle?  Maybe with 
more specific parameters for what we mean by better and starved?

If so, who or what provides the information to indicate which traffic si 
coming from gold customers?

Thank you,
Joel


From nobody Mon Oct 19 19:03:17 2015
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From: Duzongpeng <duzongpeng@huawei.com>
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Hi, Joel

There is still no consensus about Intent or ANIMA intent. Some information =
can be found in the "intent" section of=20
https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-behringer-anima-reference-model-04.txt

and another draft
https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-du-anima-an-intent-02.txt

Also, the former talking in the maillist can help.

About your question, IMO, it can be an Intent or ANIMA intent, because it e=
xpresses the need of the operator.
However, it has a high abstract level, and thus a policy continuum is neede=
d to translate the requirement to what the device can understand.

It has been agreed that there is work to do for this policy continuum, and =
it is difficult to fit in with various situations.
But I am not sure whether the detailed realization of this policy continuum=
 is in the scope of ANIMA intent.

Best Regards
Zongpeng Du

-----Original Message-----
From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2015 8:56 AM
To: Anima WG
Subject: [Anima] intent specificity

I am trying to make sure I understand what we mean by intent, and how thing=
s can be realized.

Is a statement like "in the case of congestion / contention, gold customers=
 should get better service than others, but no customer may be starved" an =
example of the kind of intent we want to handle?  Maybe with more specific =
parameters for what we mean by better and starved?

If so, who or what provides the information to indicate which traffic si co=
ming from gold customers?

Thank you,
Joel

_______________________________________________
Anima mailing list
Anima@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 19:27:49 -0700
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From: John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com>
To: "Jason Coleman (colemaj)" <colemaj@cisco.com>, John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com>
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Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/6O39ODyBD5RROXFdzFz5zqJrfc4>
Cc: "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" <mbehring@cisco.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "Toy, Mehmet" <Mehmet_Toy@cable.comcast.com>
Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
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Hi Jason,

...

When an autonomic system self-heals, why would the operator
need to know? This is comparable to routing doing its job and
changing the path. There is no reason that the operator has to
be alerted on every change in the system - there are already
WAY TOO MANY of these for the operator to handle.

>>JMC>> I think that we need to leave the option up to the operator.  Today
there are many messages that go to the operator, but they are left to the
operator to determine if they are important or not.  Sometimes, operators
will simply store the messages for review at a later time or in a  problem
management situation to look back and see if there is a pattern in the
messaging that indicates a chronic type of issue.

<jcs>
Let me rephrase.
I've spent over 15 years building sophisticated correlation
engines whose sole purpose was to reduce the number of
alarms sent to the operator, because they are overwhelmed.
This does NOT mean that all alarms should be filtered; clearly,
critical alarms should be seen, as long as they are unique.

What I'm worried about is the typical alarm storm of informational
alarms that we've seen way too many times.

That being said, in my startup (Intelliden), we ran up against
exactly the problem that Jason is mentioning. Autonomics is
**scary**. People don't want to trust **software**, they think of the
HAL-9000 scenario. That's why I've always tried to build in the
ability to let the operator choose what gets throttled and what
gets shown.

Basically, autonomics MUST (in the IETF sense) start out as a
**partnership** between software and operator. The role of
autonomics should be to make the job of the operator easier.
So if the operator wants to see everything, fine, but at least
present it in a readable and usable way.
</jcs>

>>JMC>> As we start to add AN services onto these nodes, then issues with
the ACP can become issues that are business/service impacting.  In these
cases it is important for the operator to be able to see the messages to
know if the issue is with the service, the hardware, or the ACP.

<jcs>
Agreed. But the real issue is more serious - the business is
currently disconnected from the infrastructure. There is no
"enable gold sla" command in any CLI or YANG or foobar
script I've seen. So, while communications is of course
important, there are bigger fish to fry.
</jcs>

IMHO, there are core functions provided by the ACP, and functions
that sit on top of the ACP and use these core functions. FM and PM
should sit on top of the ACP. Otherwise, the ACP doesn't scale,
because why is FM or PM more important than config mgmt.,
security, accounting, analytics, ...?

...

>>JMC>>  I think that I agree here, but want to be sure that I understand
properly.  You are stating that the ACP is simply the control plane that
builds a foundation.  The functions that are then installed onto a device
will have the ability to use that foundation per a defined set of
interactions, such as an API or otherwise.  The functions may work alone or
they may work together to support the services that they were created to
do.  In this way AN provides a  methodology and connectivity model for the
AN Functions to communicate with the ACP and possibly with each other.  The
ACP does not worry about the AN Functions other than the defined
communication in and out.  Much like the layers in the OSI model work
together, but ultimately do not care what is happening inside of each
layer, but focused on communication between layers.

<jcs>
Yes, with one small point

On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 8:12 PM, Jason Coleman (colemaj) <colemaj@cisco.com=
>
wrote:

>
> From: Anima on behalf of John Strassner
> Date: Saturday, October 17, 2015 at 11:08 AM
> To: "Toy, Mehmet", John Strassner
> Cc: "anima@ietf.org", "Michael Behringer (mbehring)"
> Subject: Re: [Anima] Self-Managed Networks
>
> Hi,
>
> sorry for the late reply, I've been buried in writing I-Ds.
>
> In response to the original train of emails (not the latest from
> Mehmet), Michael made a key point:
>
> > The ACP is self-managing. It needs to do self-healing, and
> > automatically adapt to new situations. But to me, this isn=E2=80=99t
> > fault management or performance management as an
> > operator understands it.
>
> The last phrase ("as an operator understands it) is what is so
> important. We need to differentiate between functions that
> the Autonomic System provides and functions that are visible
> to the operator.
>
> When an autonomic system self-heals, why would the operator
> need to know? This is comparable to routing doing its job and
> changing the path. There is no reason that the operator has to
> be alerted on every change in the system - there are already
> WAY TOO MANY of these for the operator to handle.
>
> >>JMC>> I think that we need to leave the option up to the operator.
> Today there are many messages that go to the operator, but they are left =
to
> the operator to determine if they are important or not.  Sometimes,
> operators will simply store the messages for review at a later time or in=
 a
>  problem management situation to look back and see if there is a pattern =
in
> the messaging that indicates a chronic type of issue.
>
> >>JMC>> As we start to add AN services onto these nodes, then issues with
> the ACP can become issues that are business/service impacting.  In these
> cases it is important for the operator to be able to see the messages to
> know if the issue is with the service, the hardware, or the ACP.
>
> ...
>
> Finally, I don't see any difference between a) and b). You have an
> ACP, and you have a set of Autonomic Functions that use the ACP.
> (You probably have different layers of Autonomic Functions, where
> a core set of Autonomic Functions are reused by other Autonomic
> Functions to provide more powerful Autonomic Functions, but this
> hasn't been discussed yet (I think)). The point is that you must start
> with a small set of Autonomic Functions. Otherwise, the ACP becomes
> a big, bloated, Ball of Mud and will end up useless.
>
> >>JMC>>  I think that I agree here, but want to be sure that I understand
> properly.  You are stating that the ACP is simply the control plane that
> builds a foundation.  The functions that are then installed onto a device
> will have the ability to use that foundation per a defined set of
> interactions, such as an API or otherwise.  The functions may work alone =
or
> they may work together to support the services that they were created to
> do.  In this way AN provides a  methodology and connectivity model for th=
e
> AN Functions to communicate with the ACP and possibly with each other.  T=
he
> ACP does not worry about the AN Functions other than the defined
> communication in and out.  Much like the layers in the OSI model work
> together, but ultimately do not care what is happening inside of each
> layer, but focused on communication between layers.
>

<jcs>
Yes. If we start demanding that the communications layer does
other things outside of communication, that spreads complexity
throughout the foundation, which is a Bad Idea.
</jcs>

>
>
> regards,
> John
>



--=20
regards,
John

--001a1141d9f0173b4a0522800273
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi Jason,</div><div><br></div><div>...</div><div><br>=
</div><div><div>When an autonomic system self-heals, why would the operator=
</div><div>need to know? This is comparable to routing doing its job and</d=
iv><div>changing the path. There is no reason that the operator has to</div=
><div>be alerted on every change in the system - there are already</div><di=
v>WAY TOO MANY of these for the operator to handle.</div> <div><br></div><d=
iv>&gt;&gt;JMC&gt;&gt; I think that we need to leave the option up to the o=
perator.=C2=A0 Today there are many messages that go to the operator, but t=
hey are left to the operator to determine if they are important or not.=C2=
=A0 Sometimes, operators will simply store the messages for review at a lat=
er time or in a =C2=A0problem management situation to look back and see if =
there is a pattern in the messaging that indicates a chronic type of issue.=
 =C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>&lt;jcs&gt;</div><div>Let me rephrase.</di=
v><div>I&#39;ve spent over 15 years building sophisticated correlation</div=
><div>engines whose sole purpose was to reduce the number of</div><div>alar=
ms sent to the operator, because they are overwhelmed.</div><div>This does =
NOT mean that all alarms should be filtered; clearly,</div><div>critical al=
arms should be seen, as long as they are unique.</div><div><br></div><div>W=
hat I&#39;m worried about is the typical alarm storm of informational</div>=
<div>alarms that we&#39;ve seen way too many times.</div><div><br></div><di=
v>That being said, in my startup (Intelliden), we ran up against</div><div>=
exactly the problem that Jason is mentioning. Autonomics is</div><div>**sca=
ry**. People don&#39;t want to trust **software**, they think of the</div><=
div>HAL-9000 scenario. That&#39;s why I&#39;ve always tried to build in the=
</div><div>ability to let the operator choose what gets throttled and what<=
/div><div>gets shown.</div><div><br></div><div>Basically, autonomics MUST (=
in the IETF sense) start out as a</div><div>**partnership** between softwar=
e and operator. The role of</div><div>autonomics should be to make the job =
of the operator easier.</div><div>So if the operator wants to see everythin=
g, fine, but at least</div><div>present it in a readable and usable way.</d=
iv><div>&lt;/jcs&gt;</div><div><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;JMC&gt;&gt; As we sta=
rt to add AN services onto these nodes, then issues with the ACP can become=
 issues that are business/service impacting.=C2=A0 In these cases it is imp=
ortant for the operator to be able to see the messages to know if the issue=
 is with the service, the hardware, or the ACP.</div><div><br></div><div>&l=
t;jcs&gt;</div><div>Agreed. But the real issue is more serious - the busine=
ss is </div><div>currently disconnected from the infrastructure. There is n=
o</div><div>&quot;enable gold sla&quot; command in any CLI or YANG or fooba=
r</div><div>script I&#39;ve seen. So, while communications is of course</di=
v><div>important, there are bigger fish to fry.</div><div>&lt;/jcs&gt;</div=
><span><div><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>IMHO, there are core =
functions provided by the ACP, and functions</div><div>that sit on top of t=
he ACP and use these core functions. FM and PM</div><div>should sit on top =
of the=C2=A0ACP. Otherwise, the ACP doesn&#39;t scale,</div><div>because wh=
y is FM or PM more important than config mgmt., </div><div>security, accoun=
ting, analytics, ...?</div><div><br></div><div>...</div></div></div></div><=
/span> <div><br></div><div>&gt;&gt;JMC&gt;&gt; =C2=A0I think that I agree h=
ere, but want to be sure that I understand properly.=C2=A0 You are stating =
that the ACP is simply the control plane that builds a foundation.=C2=A0 Th=
e functions that are then installed onto a device will have the ability to =
use that foundation per a defined set of interactions, such as an API or ot=
herwise.=C2=A0 The functions may work alone or they may work together to su=
pport the services that they were created to do.=C2=A0 In this way AN provi=
des a =C2=A0methodology and connectivity model for the AN Functions to comm=
unicate with the ACP and possibly with each other.=C2=A0 The ACP does not w=
orry about the AN Functions other than the defined communication in and out=
.=C2=A0 Much like the layers in the OSI model work together, but ultimately=
 do not care what is happening inside of each layer, but focused on communi=
cation between layers.</div><div><br></div><div>&lt;jcs&gt;</div><div>Yes, =
with one small point</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 8:12 PM, Jason Coleman (colemaj) <=
span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:colemaj@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>colemaj@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb=
(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">



<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14p=
x">
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<span>
<div style=3D"border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;b=
order-color:rgb(181,196,223) currentColor currentColor;padding:3pt 0in 0in;=
text-align:left;color:black;font-family:Calibri;font-size:12pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>Anima on behalf of John Stras=
sner<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Saturday, October 17, 2015 at=
 11:08 AM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>&quot;Toy, Mehmet&quot;, John S=
trassner<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:anima@i=
etf.org" target=3D"_blank">anima@ietf.org</a>&quot;, &quot;Michael Behringe=
r (mbehring)&quot;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [Anima] Self-Managed N=
etworks<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>Hi,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>sorry for the late reply, I&#39;ve been buried in writing I-Ds.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In response to the original train of emails (not the latest from </div=
>
<div>Mehmet), Michael made a key point:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&gt; The ACP is self-managing. It needs to do self-healing, and</div>
<div>&gt; automatically adapt to new situations. But to me, this isn=E2=80=
=99t</div>
<div>&gt; fault management or performance management as an </div>
<div>&gt; operator understands it.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The last phrase (&quot;as an operator understands it) is what is so</d=
iv>
<div>important.=C2=A0We need to differentiate between functions that</div>
<div>the=C2=A0Autonomic System provides and functions that are visible</div=
>
<div>to the operator.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>When an autonomic system self-heals, why would the operator</div>
<div>need to know? This is comparable to routing doing its job and</div>
<div>changing the path. There is no reason that the operator has to</div>
<div>be alerted on every change in the system - there are already</div>
<div>WAY TOO MANY of these for the operator to handle.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&gt;&gt;JMC&gt;&gt; I think that we need to leave the option up to the=
 operator.=C2=A0 Today there are many messages that go to the operator, but=
 they are left to the operator to determine if they are important or not.=
=C2=A0 Sometimes, operators will simply store the messages
 for review at a later time or in a =C2=A0problem management situation to l=
ook back and see if there is a pattern in the messaging that indicates a ch=
ronic type of issue. =C2=A0</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&gt;&gt;JMC&gt;&gt; As we start to add AN services onto these nodes, t=
hen issues with the ACP can become issues that are business/service impacti=
ng.=C2=A0 In these cases it is important for the operator to be able to see=
 the messages to know if the issue is with the service,
 the hardware, or the ACP.</div>
<span>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>...</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Finally, I don&#39;t see any difference between a) and b). You have an=
</div>
<div>ACP, and you have a set of Autonomic Functions that use the ACP.</div>
<div>(You probably have different layers of Autonomic Functions, where</div=
>
<div>a core set of Autonomic Functions are reused by other Autonomic</div>
<div>Functions to provide more powerful Autonomic Functions, but this</div>
<div>hasn&#39;t been discussed yet (I think)). The point is that you must s=
tart</div>
<div>with a small set of Autonomic Functions. Otherwise, the ACP becomes</d=
iv>
<div>a big, bloated, Ball of Mud and will end up useless.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&gt;&gt;JMC&gt;&gt; =C2=A0I think that I agree here, but want to be su=
re that I understand properly.=C2=A0 You are stating that the ACP is simply=
 the control plane that builds a foundation.=C2=A0 The functions that are t=
hen installed onto a device will have the ability to use that
 foundation per a defined set of interactions, such as an API or otherwise.=
=C2=A0 The functions may work alone or they may work together to support th=
e services that they were created to do.=C2=A0 In this way AN provides a =
=C2=A0methodology and connectivity model for the
 AN Functions to communicate with the ACP and possibly with each other.=C2=
=A0 The ACP does not worry about the AN Functions other than the defined co=
mmunication in and out.=C2=A0 Much like the layers in the OSI model work to=
gether, but ultimately do not care what is
 happening inside of each layer, but focused on communication between layer=
s.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>&lt;jcs&gt;</div><div>Yes. I=
f we start demanding that the communications layer does</div><div>other thi=
ngs outside of communication, that spreads complexity</div><div>throughout =
the foundation, which is a Bad Idea.</div><div>&lt;/jcs&gt;=C2=A0</div><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-lef=
t:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-=
style:solid"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;=
font-size:14px">
<div><br>
</div>
<span>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>regards,</div>
<div>John</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div><div>regards,</div=
><div>John</div></div>
</div></div>

--001a1141d9f0173b4a0522800273--


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Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 19:30:17 -0700
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From: John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com>
To: "Jason Coleman (colemaj)" <colemaj@cisco.com>
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Cc: "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-addressing-02.txt
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--001a1141d9f0e3ac390522800a50
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+1
regards.
John

On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 8:25 PM, Jason Coleman (colemaj) <colemaj@cisco.com=
>
wrote:

> I agree with Michael that it will be very hard to find a term that is not
> already in use somewhere.
> I like the idea of using the term AN Area since that term is used in a
> number of routing instances today and fits in well with those definitions=
.
> I think that in our writings if we prefix the term as much as possible
> with Autonomic Area or AN Area, or Autonoic Zone or AN Zone then we
> differentiate the term enough to get the point across with out worry of
> overlap with other definitions in use by other functions today.
>
> =E2=80=94 Jason Coleman
>
> On 10/18/15, 2:11 AM, "Anima on behalf of Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <
> anima-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of mbehring@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> >Hi Brian,
> >
> >We've tried other words before, for example "area". All of which have th=
e
> same problem - they've been used before. (And, btw, I found "area" nicer)=
.
> >
> >I agree that it would be nice to have a  new term, but I can't find a
> good one. Suggestions?
> >
> >Otherwise, we'll have have to live with it, and when people talk they
> have to say "autonomic zone" as opposed to "IPv6 zone".
> >
> >Michael
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E
> >> Carpenter
> >> Sent: 18 October 2015 00:04
> >> To: Anima WG <anima@ietf.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-
> >> addressing-02.txt
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I might have mentioned this before, but the use of the phrase "zone ID=
"
> in
> >> this context is confusing, because it already has a meaning in IPv6
> addressing
> >> (see RFC 4007 and RFC 6874). I think we need to find an alternative
> phrase.
> >>
> >> Regards
> >>    Brian
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Anima mailing list
> >> Anima@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Anima mailing list
> >Anima@ietf.org
> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>



--=20
regards,
John

--001a1141d9f0e3ac390522800a50
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>+1</div><div>regards.</div><div>John</div></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 a=
t 8:25 PM, Jason Coleman (colemaj) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
colemaj@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">colemaj@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote=
:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-le=
ft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I agree with Michael that it will be ve=
ry hard to find a term that is not already in use somewhere.<br>
I like the idea of using the term AN Area since that term is used in a numb=
er of routing instances today and fits in well with those definitions.<br>
I think that in our writings if we prefix the term as much as possible with=
 Autonomic Area or AN Area, or Autonoic Zone or AN Zone then we differentia=
te the term enough to get the point across with out worry of overlap with o=
ther definitions in use by other functions today.<br>
<br>
=E2=80=94 Jason Coleman<br>
<br>
On 10/18/15, 2:11 AM, &quot;Anima on behalf of Michael Behringer (mbehring)=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org">anima-bounces@ietf.org=
</a> on behalf of <a href=3D"mailto:mbehring@cisco.com">mbehring@cisco.com<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt;Hi Brian,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;We&#39;ve tried other words before, for example &quot;area&quot;. All o=
f which have the same problem - they&#39;ve been used before. (And, btw, I =
found &quot;area&quot; nicer).<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;I agree that it would be nice to have a=C2=A0 new term, but I can&#39;t=
 find a good one. Suggestions?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Otherwise, we&#39;ll have have to live with it, and when people talk th=
ey have to say &quot;autonomic zone&quot; as opposed to &quot;IPv6 zone&quo=
t;.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Michael<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;&gt; From: Anima [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org">anim=
a-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Brian E<br>
&gt;&gt; Carpenter<br>
&gt;&gt; Sent: 18 October 2015 00:04<br>
&gt;&gt; To: Anima WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anima@ietf.org">anima@ietf.org<=
/a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-<=
br>
&gt;&gt; addressing-02.txt<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Hi,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I might have mentioned this before, but the use of the phrase &quo=
t;zone ID&quot; in<br>
&gt;&gt; this context is confusing, because it already has a meaning in IPv=
6 addressing<br>
&gt;&gt; (see RFC 4007 and RFC 6874). I think we need to find an alternativ=
e phrase.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Regards<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt; Anima mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima" target=3D"=
_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a><=
br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;_______________________________________________<br>
&gt;Anima mailing list<br>
&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima" target=3D"_blan=
k" rel=3D"noreferrer">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Anima mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima" target=3D"_blank" r=
el=3D"noreferrer">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail_sig=
nature"><div>regards,</div><div>John</div></div>
</div>

--001a1141d9f0e3ac390522800a50--


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To: Anima WG <anima@ietf.org>
References: <20151019030751.15884.22618.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
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Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 15:30:47 +1300
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Subject: Re: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-02.txt
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Just a note that this draft still uses the TLV format for GRASP
options. The next version should use the CBOR format, but that does
not change anything in the principle of operation.

Regards
   Brian

On 19/10/2015 16:07, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> 
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
> 
> 
>         Title           : Autonomic Prefix Management in Large-scale Networks
>         Authors         : Sheng Jiang
>                           Zongpeng Du
>                           Brian Carpenter
>                           Qiong Sun
> 	Filename        : draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-02.txt
> 	Pages           : 12
> 	Date            : 2015-10-18
> 
> Abstract:
>    This document describes an autonomic solution for prefix management
>    in large-scale networks.
> 
> 
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management/
> 
> There's also a htmlized version available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-02
> 
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-jiang-anima-prefix-management-02
> 
> 
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
> 
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> I-D-Announce mailing list
> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
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> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
> 


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Hi Michael,

agreed. See my answer to Jason. Auditing is critical. I'd
just like to see this done more intelligently than the
current approach of flooding everything.

regards,
John

On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 10:39 AM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
wrote:

>
> John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com> wrote:
>     > When an autonomic system self-heals, why would the operator need to
>     > know? This is comparable to routing doing its job and changing the
>     > path. There is no reason that the operator has to be alerted on every
>     > change in the system - there are already WAY TOO MANY of these for
> the
>     > operator to handle.
>
> Yes, but just the same, the healing activity needs to be an audited event.
> The ACP should be involved in capturing these events.
>
> Sometimes things don't heal perfectly; often moving traffic from
> one system to another causes a load spike, and while things continue to
> function, the performance is different.
>
> --
> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
>  -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>
>


-- 
regards,
John

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi Michael,</div><div><br></div><div>agreed. See my a=
nswer to Jason. Auditing is critical. I&#39;d</div><div>just like to see th=
is done more intelligently than the </div><div>current approach of flooding=
 everything.</div><div><br></div><div>regards,</div><div>John</div></div><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 19, 201=
5 at 10:39 AM, Michael Richardson <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:m=
cr+ietf@sandelman.ca" target=3D"_blank">mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;</span=
> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
John Strassner &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:strazpdj@gmail.com">strazpdj@gmail.com=
</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; When an autonomic system self-heals, why would the opera=
tor need to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; know? This is comparable to routing doing its job and ch=
anging the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; path. There is no reason that the operator has to be ale=
rted on every<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; change in the system - there are already WAY TOO MANY of=
 these for the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; operator to handle.<br>
<br>
Yes, but just the same, the healing activity needs to be an audited event.<=
br>
The ACP should be involved in capturing these events.<br>
<br>
Sometimes things don&#39;t heal perfectly; often moving traffic from<br>
one system to another causes a load spike, and while things continue to<br>
function, the performance is different.<br>
<br>
--<br>
Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr%2BIETF@sandelman.ca">mcr+IETF@=
sandelman.ca</a>&gt;, Sandelman Software Works<br>
=C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Anima mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima" target=3D"_blank" r=
el=3D"noreferrer">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail=
_signature"><div>regards,</div><div>John</div></div>
</div>

--001a1143ec225ee7da0522801ea7--


From nobody Mon Oct 19 19:44:58 2015
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To: John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com>, "Jason Coleman (colemaj)" <colemaj@cisco.com>
References: <20151016073229.11137.55428.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5622C5C4.1040606@gmail.com> <b4554ca87a46402dba1d9a2758892909@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> <9634C9F9-554F-4C58-AB7F-97FC75703356@cisco.com> <CAJwYUrEuX0xo1onb_U=h8PzSm9O2UKt8Szd78yC=-wOG7Mv6iQ@mail.gmail.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
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Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 15:44:53 +1300
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Cc: "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "Michael Behringer \(mbehring\)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-addressing-02.txt
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I agree. In fact it's critical that we do so. The particular case of
IPv6 Zone ID is very unfortunate, because *all* it refers to is the
local name of a specific interface within a specific node. It doesn't
even identify a given LAN link (i.e., "eth0" on one node might be
an interface to the same LAN as "eth1" on another node). So I think
we'll need to be very strict about saying "Autonomic" every time we
say "Zone".

Or we could call them "Autonomic Regions".

   Brian

On 20/10/2015 15:30, John Strassner wrote:
> +1
> regards.
> John
>=20
> On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 8:25 PM, Jason Coleman (colemaj) <colemaj@cisco=
=2Ecom>
> wrote:
>=20
>> I agree with Michael that it will be very hard to find a term that is =
not
>> already in use somewhere.
>> I like the idea of using the term AN Area since that term is used in a=

>> number of routing instances today and fits in well with those definiti=
ons.
>> I think that in our writings if we prefix the term as much as possible=

>> with Autonomic Area or AN Area, or Autonoic Zone or AN Zone then we
>> differentiate the term enough to get the point across with out worry o=
f
>> overlap with other definitions in use by other functions today.
>>
>> =E2=80=94 Jason Coleman
>>
>> On 10/18/15, 2:11 AM, "Anima on behalf of Michael Behringer (mbehring)=
" <
>> anima-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of mbehring@cisco.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Brian,
>>>
>>> We've tried other words before, for example "area". All of which have=
 the
>> same problem - they've been used before. (And, btw, I found "area" nic=
er).
>>>
>>> I agree that it would be nice to have a  new term, but I can't find a=

>> good one. Suggestions?
>>>
>>> Otherwise, we'll have have to live with it, and when people talk they=

>> have to say "autonomic zone" as opposed to "IPv6 zone".
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E
>>>> Carpenter
>>>> Sent: 18 October 2015 00:04
>>>> To: Anima WG <anima@ietf.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-
>>>> addressing-02.txt
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I might have mentioned this before, but the use of the phrase "zone =
ID"
>> in
>>>> this context is confusing, because it already has a meaning in IPv6
>> addressing
>>>> (see RFC 4007 and RFC 6874). I think we need to find an alternative
>> phrase.
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>    Brian
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Anima mailing list
>>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Anima mailing list
>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>
>=20
>=20
>=20


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From: John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com>
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Cc: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, reddy.pallavali@ulusofona.pt, Anima WG <anima@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Anima] [ANIMA] Self-Managed Networks
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Hi all,

Sorry, I'm a bit confused.

To me, this thread is starting to discuss generic messaging system
capabilities (e.g., at the minimum, a message broker, at the other
end of the scale, a full-blown ESB). I didn't think that the purpose
of the ACP included such capabilities.

In other words, there is a huge difference between GRASP
generating a notification and GRASP functioning as a full
messaging system, complete with message transformation and
routing, queuing, etc.

I was assuming the former, not the latter.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

(Note that FOCALE used an ESB for inter-agent communication.)

regards,
John



On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 12:35 PM, Brian E Carpenter <
brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 20/10/2015 08:04, Joel M. Halpern wrote:
> > There are at least two different factors to consider in terms of what
> events are communicated to the operator.
> >
> > First, for initial deployment of autonomic technologies, operators will
> want ways to observe all the events so they can gain
> > confidence in the technology.  (We received these requests with existing
> self-organizing network technologies.)
> >
> > Secondly, different operators have different degrees of information
> harvesting and display relative to the state of the
> > network.  Even if the network is taking care of itself perfectly, some
> operators will want visibility to any internal state
> > change.  These operators currently monitor their routing protocol state
> for similar effects.
>
> What I get from this is a requirement that all ASAs are capable of
> notifying events,
> but whether and how those events are reported live to operators is a
> separate issue.
>
> (However, I have never forgotten that at Three Mile Island, the system was
> so busy
> reporting minor alarms that it took hours before the underlying alarm
> message
> saying what was really wrong got printed. TMI, indeed.)
>
>    Brian
>
> >
> > Yours,
> > Joel
> >
> > On 10/19/15 2:58 PM, Reddy Pallavali wrote:
> >> Michael,
> >>
> >> Yes, for every small issue there is no need to contact operator except,
> >> if it is a complex one.
> >> Even for self-healing we can use Swarm Intelligence or Artificial
> >> Intelligence techniques, but for learning may take some time. However,
> >> these are scalable techniques.
> >> Here, also there is a need of consensus, if the system is fully
> >> distributed and asynchronous need to know which object is crashed, how
> >> to schedule the loads and coverage issues as well.
> >>
> >> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 6:39 PM, Michael Richardson
> >> <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca <mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>     John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com <mailto:strazpdj@gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> >>          > When an autonomic system self-heals, why would the operator
> >>     need to
> >>          > know? This is comparable to routing doing its job and
> >>     changing the
> >>          > path. There is no reason that the operator has to be alerted
> >>     on every
> >>          > change in the system - there are already WAY TOO MANY of
> >>     these for the
> >>          > operator to handle.
> >>
> >>     Yes, but just the same, the healing activity needs to be an audited
> >>     event.
> >>     The ACP should be involved in capturing these events.
> >>
> >>     Sometimes things don't heal perfectly; often moving traffic from
> >>     one system to another causes a load spike, and while things
> continue to
> >>     function, the performance is different.
> >>
> >>     --
> >>     Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca
> >>     <mailto:mcr%2BIETF@sandelman.ca>>, Sandelman Software Works
> >>       -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>     _______________________________________________
> >>     Anima mailing list
> >>     Anima@ietf.org <mailto:Anima@ietf.org>
> >>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Thank you very much for your time and consideration.
> >>
> >>
> >> Yours sincerely,
> >>
> >> P Radha Krishna Reddy, M.Sc, M.Tech,
> >>
> >> Junior Researcher/Ph.D Student,
> >>
> >> COPE LABS, Universidade Lusofona, Lisboa - Portugal.
> >>
> >> Author of: Security Issues of Cloud Computing over General & IT Sector
> >> Mobile: +351923095671
> >> www.prkreddy.webs.com
> >> http://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Anima mailing list
> >> Anima@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Anima mailing list
> > Anima@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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-- 
regards,
John

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi all,</div><div><br></div><div>Sorry, I&#39;m a bit=
 confused.</div><div><br></div><div>To me, this thread is starting to discu=
ss generic messaging system</div><div>capabilities (e.g., at the minimum, a=
 message broker, at the other</div><div>end of the scale, a full-blown ESB)=
. I didn&#39;t think that the purpose</div><div>of the ACP included such ca=
pabilities.</div><div><br></div><div>In other words, there is a huge differ=
ence between GRASP </div><div>generating a notification and GRASP functioni=
ng as a full</div><div>messaging system, complete with message transformati=
on and</div><div>routing, queuing, etc.</div><div><br></div><div>I was assu=
ming the former, not the latter.</div><div><br></div><div>Please correct me=
 if I am wrong.</div><div><br></div><div>(Note that FOCALE used an ESB for =
inter-agent communication.)</div><div><br></div><div>regards,</div><div>Joh=
n</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><=
div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 12:35 PM, Brian E Carpent=
er <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex">On 20/10/2015 08:04, Joel M. Halpern wrote:<br>
&gt; There are at least two different factors to consider in terms of what =
events are communicated to the operator.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; First, for initial deployment of autonomic technologies, operators wil=
l want ways to observe all the events so they can gain<br>
&gt; confidence in the technology.=C2=A0 (We received these requests with e=
xisting self-organizing network technologies.)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Secondly, different operators have different degrees of information ha=
rvesting and display relative to the state of the<br>
&gt; network.=C2=A0 Even if the network is taking care of itself perfectly,=
 some operators will want visibility to any internal state<br>
&gt; change.=C2=A0 These operators currently monitor their routing protocol=
 state for similar effects.<br>
<br>
What I get from this is a requirement that all ASAs are capable of notifyin=
g events,<br>
but whether and how those events are reported live to operators is a separa=
te issue.<br>
<br>
(However, I have never forgotten that at Three Mile Island, the system was =
so busy<br>
reporting minor alarms that it took hours before the underlying alarm messa=
ge<br>
saying what was really wrong got printed. TMI, indeed.)<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian<br>
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Yours,<br>
&gt; Joel<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On 10/19/15 2:58 PM, Reddy Pallavali wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; Michael,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Yes, for every small issue there is no need to contact operator ex=
cept,<br>
&gt;&gt; if it is a complex one.<br>
&gt;&gt; Even for self-healing we can use Swarm Intelligence or Artificial<=
br>
&gt;&gt; Intelligence techniques, but for learning may take some time. Howe=
ver,<br>
&gt;&gt; these are scalable techniques.<br>
&gt;&gt; Here, also there is a need of consensus, if the system is fully<br=
>
&gt;&gt; distributed and asynchronous need to know which object is crashed,=
 how<br>
&gt;&gt; to schedule the loads and coverage issues as well.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 6:39 PM, Michael Richardson<br>
&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr%2Bietf@sandelman.ca">mcr+ietf@sandelman.=
ca</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mcr%2Bietf@sandelman.ca">mcr+ietf@sande=
lman.ca</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0John Strassner &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:strazpdj@g=
mail.com">strazpdj@gmail.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:strazpdj@gmai=
l.com">strazpdj@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; When an autonomic system se=
lf-heals, why would the operator<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0need to<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; know? This is comparable to=
 routing doing its job and<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0changing the<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; path. There is no reason th=
at the operator has to be alerted<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0on every<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; change in the system - ther=
e are already WAY TOO MANY of<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0these for the<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; operator to handle.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Yes, but just the same, the healing activity ne=
eds to be an audited<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0event.<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The ACP should be involved in capturing these e=
vents.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sometimes things don&#39;t heal perfectly; ofte=
n moving traffic from<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0one system to another causes a load spike, and =
while things continue to<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0function, the performance is different.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr%2B=
IETF@sandelman.ca">mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca</a><br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mcr%252BIETF@sande=
lman.ca">mcr%2BIETF@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;&gt;, Sandelman Software Works<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_______________________________________________=
<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Anima mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.or=
g</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a>&gt;<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinf=
o/anima" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/=
listinfo/anima</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; --<br>
&gt;&gt; Thank you very much for your time and consideration.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Yours sincerely,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; P Radha Krishna Reddy, M.Sc, M.Tech,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Junior Researcher/Ph.D Student,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; COPE LABS, Universidade Lusofona, Lisboa - Portugal.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Author of: Security Issues of Cloud Computing over General &amp; I=
T Sector<br>
&gt;&gt; Mobile: <a href=3D"tel:%2B351923095671" value=3D"+351923095671">+3=
51923095671</a><br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.prkreddy.webs.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"=
noreferrer">www.prkreddy.webs.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/" target=3D"_b=
lank" rel=3D"noreferrer">http://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt; Anima mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima" target=3D"=
_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a><=
br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; Anima mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima" target=3D"_bla=
nk" rel=3D"noreferrer">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a><br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Anima mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Anima@ietf.org">Anima@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima" target=3D"_blank" r=
el=3D"noreferrer">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail_sig=
nature"><div>regards,</div><div>John</div></div>
</div>

--001a1143a8620f49cd05228b3023--


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Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 08:53:28 -0700
From: Toerless Eckert <eckert@cisco.com>
To: John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com>
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References: <CAJwYUrENRnr28LmQyY379b6EAySPGxm99FX4XU3wo16Qt9ssCg@mail.gmail.com> <29518.1445276383@sandelman.ca> <CAJwYUrHhV92Kv=47fZsX=Rb99CR_c2tD6rxyfDJ3V975MW1zfQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] [ANIMA] Self-Managed Networks
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What do folks on the list think would be typical/important fault events and
healing actions ? Especially actions of "self-healing" that today are not
done, but could be done with better fault management ?

Me:

Link failure. self-healing: re-routing. But no good idea of additional self-healing
that would be enabled by autonomic. Fuzzy feeling that there can be a lot of
services whose parameters might need adjustment under reduced network capacity
though. Just no simple example workflow right now.

Is overloading capacity a fault ? Eg: Too many BGP routes injected, too many
subscribres attaching to wireless ? Are actions like admission control (stop
after threshold) fault management ? Eg: i am not sure about the scope of the
terminology "fault management". 

Cheers
    Toerless

On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 07:35:44PM -0700, John Strassner wrote:
> Hi Michael,
> 
> agreed. See my answer to Jason. Auditing is critical. I'd
> just like to see this done more intelligently than the
> current approach of flooding everything.
> 
> regards,
> John
> 
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 10:39 AM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
> wrote:
> 
> >
> > John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com> wrote:
> >     > When an autonomic system self-heals, why would the operator need to
> >     > know? This is comparable to routing doing its job and changing the
> >     > path. There is no reason that the operator has to be alerted on every
> >     > change in the system - there are already WAY TOO MANY of these for
> > the
> >     > operator to handle.
> >
> > Yes, but just the same, the healing activity needs to be an audited event.
> > The ACP should be involved in capturing these events.
> >
> > Sometimes things don't heal perfectly; often moving traffic from
> > one system to another causes a load spike, and while things continue to
> > function, the performance is different.
> >
> > --
> > Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
> >  -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-


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Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 09:17:11 -0700
From: Toerless Eckert <eckert@cisco.com>
To: John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com>
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References: <CAJwYUrENRnr28LmQyY379b6EAySPGxm99FX4XU3wo16Qt9ssCg@mail.gmail.com> <29518.1445276383@sandelman.ca> <CAC0HMNQekHEBe9gJ7ST=iXmjboSrwthCQSgpWY_JY09tDabOYQ@mail.gmail.com> <56253ECD.9010701@joelhalpern.com> <562545FC.5060905@gmail.com> <CAJwYUrFZHGPO3Md2MFUqdLyVDbr9EytVTCtoCVTO4HEi2a7pzw@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] [ANIMA] Self-Managed Networks
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The way i see it:

Before anima, every distributed function we designed in the IETF
used its own reinvented communication paradigm. The only common
mechanism was use of IP packets, but not even that was the lowest common
denominator (IS-IS anybody).  

So the question really is what are the pragmatic common communication
mechanisms we can come up with to make future distributed functions
easier to implement, deploy and operate. With focus on "deploy" because
thats what we want to be autonomic. And start with what our own "anima"
distributed functions realized via "agents" need.

We know p2p with common presentation layer and set of session transaction
types, and some limited discovery, eg: mp2mp transactions.

The discussion now is what's logically next. Once we have an idea, then
we can figure whether it makes sense to call/put-into GRASP and/or if/how
to deal with it in ANIMA.


On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 08:48:05AM -0700, John Strassner wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Sorry, I'm a bit confused.
> 
> To me, this thread is starting to discuss generic messaging system
> capabilities (e.g., at the minimum, a message broker, at the other
> end of the scale, a full-blown ESB). I didn't think that the purpose
> of the ACP included such capabilities.
> 
> In other words, there is a huge difference between GRASP
> generating a notification and GRASP functioning as a full
> messaging system, complete with message transformation and
> routing, queuing, etc.
> 
> I was assuming the former, not the latter.
> 
> Please correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> (Note that FOCALE used an ESB for inter-agent communication.)
> 
> regards,
> John
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 12:35 PM, Brian E Carpenter <
> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > On 20/10/2015 08:04, Joel M. Halpern wrote:
> > > There are at least two different factors to consider in terms of what
> > events are communicated to the operator.
> > >
> > > First, for initial deployment of autonomic technologies, operators will
> > want ways to observe all the events so they can gain
> > > confidence in the technology.  (We received these requests with existing
> > self-organizing network technologies.)
> > >
> > > Secondly, different operators have different degrees of information
> > harvesting and display relative to the state of the
> > > network.  Even if the network is taking care of itself perfectly, some
> > operators will want visibility to any internal state
> > > change.  These operators currently monitor their routing protocol state
> > for similar effects.
> >
> > What I get from this is a requirement that all ASAs are capable of
> > notifying events,
> > but whether and how those events are reported live to operators is a
> > separate issue.
> >
> > (However, I have never forgotten that at Three Mile Island, the system was
> > so busy
> > reporting minor alarms that it took hours before the underlying alarm
> > message
> > saying what was really wrong got printed. TMI, indeed.)
> >
> >    Brian
> >
> > >
> > > Yours,
> > > Joel
> > >
> > > On 10/19/15 2:58 PM, Reddy Pallavali wrote:
> > >> Michael,
> > >>
> > >> Yes, for every small issue there is no need to contact operator except,
> > >> if it is a complex one.
> > >> Even for self-healing we can use Swarm Intelligence or Artificial
> > >> Intelligence techniques, but for learning may take some time. However,
> > >> these are scalable techniques.
> > >> Here, also there is a need of consensus, if the system is fully
> > >> distributed and asynchronous need to know which object is crashed, how
> > >> to schedule the loads and coverage issues as well.
> > >>
> > >> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 6:39 PM, Michael Richardson
> > >> <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca <mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>     John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com <mailto:strazpdj@gmail.com>>
> > wrote:
> > >>          > When an autonomic system self-heals, why would the operator
> > >>     need to
> > >>          > know? This is comparable to routing doing its job and
> > >>     changing the
> > >>          > path. There is no reason that the operator has to be alerted
> > >>     on every
> > >>          > change in the system - there are already WAY TOO MANY of
> > >>     these for the
> > >>          > operator to handle.
> > >>
> > >>     Yes, but just the same, the healing activity needs to be an audited
> > >>     event.
> > >>     The ACP should be involved in capturing these events.
> > >>
> > >>     Sometimes things don't heal perfectly; often moving traffic from
> > >>     one system to another causes a load spike, and while things
> > continue to
> > >>     function, the performance is different.
> > >>
> > >>     --
> > >>     Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca
> > >>     <mailto:mcr%2BIETF@sandelman.ca>>, Sandelman Software Works
> > >>       -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>     _______________________________________________
> > >>     Anima mailing list
> > >>     Anima@ietf.org <mailto:Anima@ietf.org>
> > >>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Thank you very much for your time and consideration.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Yours sincerely,
> > >>
> > >> P Radha Krishna Reddy, M.Sc, M.Tech,
> > >>
> > >> Junior Researcher/Ph.D Student,
> > >>
> > >> COPE LABS, Universidade Lusofona, Lisboa - Portugal.
> > >>
> > >> Author of: Security Issues of Cloud Computing over General & IT Sector
> > >> Mobile: +351923095671
> > >> www.prkreddy.webs.com
> > >> http://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Anima mailing list
> > >> Anima@ietf.org
> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> > >>
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Anima mailing list
> > > Anima@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Anima mailing list
> > Anima@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> regards,
> John

> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


-- 
---
Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com


From nobody Tue Oct 20 10:09:54 2015
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To: Toerless Eckert <eckert@cisco.com>, John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com>
References: <CAJwYUrENRnr28LmQyY379b6EAySPGxm99FX4XU3wo16Qt9ssCg@mail.gmail.com> <29518.1445276383@sandelman.ca> <CAC0HMNQekHEBe9gJ7ST=iXmjboSrwthCQSgpWY_JY09tDabOYQ@mail.gmail.com> <56253ECD.9010701@joelhalpern.com> <562545FC.5060905@gmail.com> <CAJwYUrFZHGPO3Md2MFUqdLyVDbr9EytVTCtoCVTO4HEi2a7pzw@mail.gmail.com> <20151020161711.GB10666@cisco.com>
From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
Message-ID: <5626755C.7020306@joelhalpern.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 13:09:48 -0400
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Cc: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, reddy.pallavali@ulusofona.pt, Anima WG <anima@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Anima] [ANIMA] Self-Managed Networks
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While i think we should be cautious about attepting to boil the ocean, I 
certainly prefer GRASP plus good distribution design as an information 
distribution mechanism rather than BGP.

Yours,
Joel

On 10/20/15 12:17 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote:
> The way i see it:
>
> Before anima, every distributed function we designed in the IETF
> used its own reinvented communication paradigm. The only common
> mechanism was use of IP packets, but not even that was the lowest common
> denominator (IS-IS anybody).
>
> So the question really is what are the pragmatic common communication
> mechanisms we can come up with to make future distributed functions
> easier to implement, deploy and operate. With focus on "deploy" because
> thats what we want to be autonomic. And start with what our own "anima"
> distributed functions realized via "agents" need.
>
> We know p2p with common presentation layer and set of session transaction
> types, and some limited discovery, eg: mp2mp transactions.
>
> The discussion now is what's logically next. Once we have an idea, then
> we can figure whether it makes sense to call/put-into GRASP and/or if/how
> to deal with it in ANIMA.
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 08:48:05AM -0700, John Strassner wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Sorry, I'm a bit confused.
>>
>> To me, this thread is starting to discuss generic messaging system
>> capabilities (e.g., at the minimum, a message broker, at the other
>> end of the scale, a full-blown ESB). I didn't think that the purpose
>> of the ACP included such capabilities.
>>
>> In other words, there is a huge difference between GRASP
>> generating a notification and GRASP functioning as a full
>> messaging system, complete with message transformation and
>> routing, queuing, etc.
>>
>> I was assuming the former, not the latter.
>>
>> Please correct me if I am wrong.
>>
>> (Note that FOCALE used an ESB for inter-agent communication.)
>>
>> regards,
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 12:35 PM, Brian E Carpenter <
>> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 20/10/2015 08:04, Joel M. Halpern wrote:
>>>> There are at least two different factors to consider in terms of what
>>> events are communicated to the operator.
>>>>
>>>> First, for initial deployment of autonomic technologies, operators will
>>> want ways to observe all the events so they can gain
>>>> confidence in the technology.  (We received these requests with existing
>>> self-organizing network technologies.)
>>>>
>>>> Secondly, different operators have different degrees of information
>>> harvesting and display relative to the state of the
>>>> network.  Even if the network is taking care of itself perfectly, some
>>> operators will want visibility to any internal state
>>>> change.  These operators currently monitor their routing protocol state
>>> for similar effects.
>>>
>>> What I get from this is a requirement that all ASAs are capable of
>>> notifying events,
>>> but whether and how those events are reported live to operators is a
>>> separate issue.
>>>
>>> (However, I have never forgotten that at Three Mile Island, the system was
>>> so busy
>>> reporting minor alarms that it took hours before the underlying alarm
>>> message
>>> saying what was really wrong got printed. TMI, indeed.)
>>>
>>>     Brian
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yours,
>>>> Joel
>>>>
>>>> On 10/19/15 2:58 PM, Reddy Pallavali wrote:
>>>>> Michael,
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, for every small issue there is no need to contact operator except,
>>>>> if it is a complex one.
>>>>> Even for self-healing we can use Swarm Intelligence or Artificial
>>>>> Intelligence techniques, but for learning may take some time. However,
>>>>> these are scalable techniques.
>>>>> Here, also there is a need of consensus, if the system is fully
>>>>> distributed and asynchronous need to know which object is crashed, how
>>>>> to schedule the loads and coverage issues as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 6:39 PM, Michael Richardson
>>>>> <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca <mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>      John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com <mailto:strazpdj@gmail.com>>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>           > When an autonomic system self-heals, why would the operator
>>>>>      need to
>>>>>           > know? This is comparable to routing doing its job and
>>>>>      changing the
>>>>>           > path. There is no reason that the operator has to be alerted
>>>>>      on every
>>>>>           > change in the system - there are already WAY TOO MANY of
>>>>>      these for the
>>>>>           > operator to handle.
>>>>>
>>>>>      Yes, but just the same, the healing activity needs to be an audited
>>>>>      event.
>>>>>      The ACP should be involved in capturing these events.
>>>>>
>>>>>      Sometimes things don't heal perfectly; often moving traffic from
>>>>>      one system to another causes a load spike, and while things
>>> continue to
>>>>>      function, the performance is different.
>>>>>
>>>>>      --
>>>>>      Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca
>>>>>      <mailto:mcr%2BIETF@sandelman.ca>>, Sandelman Software Works
>>>>>        -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>      _______________________________________________
>>>>>      Anima mailing list
>>>>>      Anima@ietf.org <mailto:Anima@ietf.org>
>>>>>      https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Thank you very much for your time and consideration.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yours sincerely,
>>>>>
>>>>> P Radha Krishna Reddy, M.Sc, M.Tech,
>>>>>
>>>>> Junior Researcher/Ph.D Student,
>>>>>
>>>>> COPE LABS, Universidade Lusofona, Lisboa - Portugal.
>>>>>
>>>>> Author of: Security Issues of Cloud Computing over General & IT Sector
>>>>> Mobile: +351923095671
>>>>> www.prkreddy.webs.com
>>>>> http://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Anima mailing list
>>>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Anima mailing list
>>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Anima mailing list
>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> regards,
>> John
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>
>


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From: "Jason Coleman (colemaj)" <colemaj@cisco.com>
To: "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" <eckert@cisco.com>, John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] [ANIMA] Self-Managed Networks
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References: <CAJwYUrENRnr28LmQyY379b6EAySPGxm99FX4XU3wo16Qt9ssCg@mail.gmail.com> <29518.1445276383@sandelman.ca> <CAJwYUrHhV92Kv=47fZsX=Rb99CR_c2tD6rxyfDJ3V975MW1zfQ@mail.gmail.com> <20151020155328.GA10666@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] [ANIMA] Self-Managed Networks
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From nobody Tue Oct 20 11:57:42 2015
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To: John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com>
References: <CAJwYUrENRnr28LmQyY379b6EAySPGxm99FX4XU3wo16Qt9ssCg@mail.gmail.com> <29518.1445276383@sandelman.ca> <CAC0HMNQekHEBe9gJ7ST=iXmjboSrwthCQSgpWY_JY09tDabOYQ@mail.gmail.com> <56253ECD.9010701@joelhalpern.com> <562545FC.5060905@gmail.com> <CAJwYUrFZHGPO3Md2MFUqdLyVDbr9EytVTCtoCVTO4HEi2a7pzw@mail.gmail.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Cc: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, reddy.pallavali@ulusofona.pt, Anima WG <anima@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Anima] [ANIMA] Self-Managed Networks
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On 21/10/2015 04:48, John Strassner wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Sorry, I'm a bit confused.
> 
> To me, this thread is starting to discuss generic messaging system
> capabilities (e.g., at the minimum, a message broker, at the other
> end of the scale, a full-blown ESB). I didn't think that the purpose
> of the ACP included such capabilities.
> 
> In other words, there is a huge difference between GRASP
> generating a notification and GRASP functioning as a full
> messaging system, complete with message transformation and
> routing, queuing, etc.
> 
> I was assuming the former, not the latter.
> 
> Please correct me if I am wrong.

No, you're right. However, one property of the ACP itself is that
it will provide a secure VPN amongst all autonomic nodes and that
means that in some sense it can be used for anything at all.

    Brian

> 
> (Note that FOCALE used an ESB for inter-agent communication.)
> 
> regards,
> John
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 12:35 PM, Brian E Carpenter <
> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 20/10/2015 08:04, Joel M. Halpern wrote:
>>> There are at least two different factors to consider in terms of what
>> events are communicated to the operator.
>>>
>>> First, for initial deployment of autonomic technologies, operators will
>> want ways to observe all the events so they can gain
>>> confidence in the technology.  (We received these requests with existing
>> self-organizing network technologies.)
>>>
>>> Secondly, different operators have different degrees of information
>> harvesting and display relative to the state of the
>>> network.  Even if the network is taking care of itself perfectly, some
>> operators will want visibility to any internal state
>>> change.  These operators currently monitor their routing protocol state
>> for similar effects.
>>
>> What I get from this is a requirement that all ASAs are capable of
>> notifying events,
>> but whether and how those events are reported live to operators is a
>> separate issue.
>>
>> (However, I have never forgotten that at Three Mile Island, the system was
>> so busy
>> reporting minor alarms that it took hours before the underlying alarm
>> message
>> saying what was really wrong got printed. TMI, indeed.)
>>
>>    Brian
>>
>>>
>>> Yours,
>>> Joel
>>>
>>> On 10/19/15 2:58 PM, Reddy Pallavali wrote:
>>>> Michael,
>>>>
>>>> Yes, for every small issue there is no need to contact operator except,
>>>> if it is a complex one.
>>>> Even for self-healing we can use Swarm Intelligence or Artificial
>>>> Intelligence techniques, but for learning may take some time. However,
>>>> these are scalable techniques.
>>>> Here, also there is a need of consensus, if the system is fully
>>>> distributed and asynchronous need to know which object is crashed, how
>>>> to schedule the loads and coverage issues as well.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 6:39 PM, Michael Richardson
>>>> <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca <mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com <mailto:strazpdj@gmail.com>>
>> wrote:
>>>>          > When an autonomic system self-heals, why would the operator
>>>>     need to
>>>>          > know? This is comparable to routing doing its job and
>>>>     changing the
>>>>          > path. There is no reason that the operator has to be alerted
>>>>     on every
>>>>          > change in the system - there are already WAY TOO MANY of
>>>>     these for the
>>>>          > operator to handle.
>>>>
>>>>     Yes, but just the same, the healing activity needs to be an audited
>>>>     event.
>>>>     The ACP should be involved in capturing these events.
>>>>
>>>>     Sometimes things don't heal perfectly; often moving traffic from
>>>>     one system to another causes a load spike, and while things
>> continue to
>>>>     function, the performance is different.
>>>>
>>>>     --
>>>>     Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca
>>>>     <mailto:mcr%2BIETF@sandelman.ca>>, Sandelman Software Works
>>>>       -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>     Anima mailing list
>>>>     Anima@ietf.org <mailto:Anima@ietf.org>
>>>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Thank you very much for your time and consideration.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yours sincerely,
>>>>
>>>> P Radha Krishna Reddy, M.Sc, M.Tech,
>>>>
>>>> Junior Researcher/Ph.D Student,
>>>>
>>>> COPE LABS, Universidade Lusofona, Lisboa - Portugal.
>>>>
>>>> Author of: Security Issues of Cloud Computing over General & IT Sector
>>>> Mobile: +351923095671
>>>> www.prkreddy.webs.com
>>>> http://pt.linkedin.com/in/reddypallavali/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Anima mailing list
>>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Anima mailing list
>>> Anima@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>>
> 
> 
> 


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To: anima@ietf.org
References: <CAJwYUrENRnr28LmQyY379b6EAySPGxm99FX4XU3wo16Qt9ssCg@mail.gmail.com> <29518.1445276383@sandelman.ca> <CAJwYUrHhV92Kv=47fZsX=Rb99CR_c2tD6rxyfDJ3V975MW1zfQ@mail.gmail.com> <20151020155328.GA10666@cisco.com> <0D559E89-B75F-4A55-94E9-4E6451C26CD6@cisco.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] [ANIMA] Self-Managed Networks
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On 21/10/2015 07:25, Jason Coleman (colemaj) wrote:
> Taking a step back; why are we defining what messages AN will or will not send?
> Is there a reason that we simply leave this to the implementation of the code itself?

Well, there are some general considerations like loop prevention, and functionality
that all ASAs must support. The actual semantics for managing a given parameter
of course have to be specific.

> My thought is that at most we could right what SHOULD, COULD, or MAY but not MUST when it comes to messages.

The devil is in the details. For example GRASP currently says that every objective
MUST carry a loop count and that when it hits zero the negotiation MUST end.
On the other hand it says that the data format of the objective MAY be whatever
you want.

   Brian


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From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" <mbehring@cisco.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, John Strassner <strazpdj@gmail.com>, "Jason Coleman (colemaj)" <colemaj@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-behringer-anima-autonomic-addressing-02.txt
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From: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
To: Anima WG <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Reminder: Call for Agenda ANIMA @ IETF94, Yokohama
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Subject: [Anima] Reminder: Call for Agenda ANIMA @ IETF94, Yokohama
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From: "PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE)" <pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: Anima WG <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: draft dealing with generic features of ASA/AF
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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 13:46:44 +0000
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Subject: [Anima] draft dealing with generic features of ASA/AF
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Hi Anima folks,

This email < intends > to point at a freshly written draft dealing with aut=
onomic functions and ASAs :
draft-peloso-anima-autonomic-function-00<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-=
peloso-anima-autonomic-function-00.html>

This draft addresses two sorts of extensions:

*         Some immediate ones that fills holes in-between the current anima=
 works (e.g. what an ASA declares to others when bootstrapping [its Manifes=
t] and the format of the instructions he needs in order to startup [its man=
date], and which is the ASA life-cycle sequence)

*         Some that need not being solved right now, but better kept in sig=
ht to extend the applicability of current anima works (e.g. operator contro=
lled and dynamic deployment of autonomic solutions).

Best regards,

Pierre and Laurent

P.S.
As a side effect of the draft, we have intently changed in its text Autonom=
ic Service Agent into Autonomic Function Agent, as the deeper we were sorti=
ng our thoughts around autonomic functions the less we were comfortable wit=
h the ASA wording. This is a mere detail, and I have no strong opinion on t=
his naming, this was just a way to let everyone think around what the dutie=
s of an ASA/AFA are ?

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<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
</head>
<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Anima folks,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This email &laquo;&nbsp;intends&nbsp;&raquo; to poin=
t at a freshly written draft dealing with autonomic functions and ASAs&nbsp=
;:
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-peloso-=
anima-autonomic-function-00.html">draft-peloso-anima-autonomic-function-00<=
/a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft addresses two sorts of extensions:<o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span styl=
e=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]>Some immediate ones that fills holes in-betw=
een the current anima works (e.g. what an ASA declares to others when boots=
trapping [its Manifest] and the format of the instructions he needs in orde=
r to startup [its mandate], and
 which is the ASA life-cycle sequence) <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span styl=
e=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]>Some that need not being solved right now, b=
ut better kept in sight to extend the applicability of current anima works =
(e.g. operator controlled and dynamic deployment of autonomic solutions).<o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Best regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Pierre and Laurent<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">P.S.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As a side effect of the draft, we have intently chan=
ged in its text Autonomic Service Agent into Autonomic Function Agent, as t=
he deeper we were sorting our thoughts around autonomic functions the less =
we were comfortable with the ASA wording.
 This is a mere detail, and I have no strong opinion on this naming, this w=
as just a way to let everyone think around what the duties of an ASA/AFA ar=
e ?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_CCC5C4E24279804E8525F189C60FFABCB0B0E4FCFR712WXCHMBA12z_--


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From nobody Mon Oct 26 20:34:29 2015
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From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Hi,

This is interesting to read. At the moment I'm mainly interested in whether
it presents any new challenges for the GRASP design. Mostly, I think it doesn't;
the manifests and mandates are essentially declarative data structures that can
be transmitted by GRASP in its "synchronization" mode. They might also be candidates
for selective distribution, like Intent.

However, you have two imperatives: up and down (or start and stop, if you prefer).
In fact we already have 'stop' listed elsewhere, as an emergency button for
the human operator.

GRASP doesn't contain any feature currently for sending an unpredicted 'stop'
or 'start' message. Do we need to think about adding that? Or should we consider
it out-of-band as far as GRASP is concerned?

Regards
   Brian


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From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Just a few comments and questions. I'm sure I will have more comments later.

I am reasonably convinced that we need to tackle this problem. At the moment
GRASP can handle two cases that are mentioned:

> 2.1.  Whole Domain Distribution

That's the GRASP flooding synchronization mode.

> 2.3.  Incremental Distribution
> 
>    The distribution only goes to the nodes that newly get online.

Assuming that nodes request synchronization when they go on line
(including after a sleep to save battery), this will be taken care of
by the GRASP unicast synchronization mode.

So the problem that remains is selective distribution. There are at least
two ways to model this:

(a) select all nodes that meet certain criteria (e.g. all nodes that support
objectives A, B or C). Flood the information to them.

(b) require nodes to subscribe to information X, Y or Z. Flood the information
to subscribers (a so-called pub-sub architecture).

Which model do we want? My guess is (a), because we need to be sure that Intent
for objective A reaches all nodes that support A, and so on. I think that's
what the manifest/mandate model in draft-peloso-anima-autonomic-function
would need, too.

I also think that (a) would be natural to implement in GRASP. We already have to
cache the locators of all the ASAs that support a given objective, as part
of the discovery mechanism. So we have that cache available to control
the selective distribution. Or if you actually prefer a pub-sub model, consider
that every node that responds to discovery for objective A is automatically
subscribed for distribution of all information relevant to objective A.

> 3.1.1.  Autonomic Domain Boundary
...
>    [Editor's Notes] It is a practical issue that how an autonomic node
>    recognizes itself as a domain boundary device.  It is not in the
>    scope of this document.

This actually won't be an issue with an ACP in place: only systems within
the domain will be addressable in the ACP.

> 3.1.3.  Arbitrary Injecting Point (Optional)
> 
>    The distributed object SHOULD be injected at any autonomic node
>    within the domain (or within a specific group [TBD]).

This is the same authorization problem that we have in general. Either
we accept that anything inside the domain is trusted, or we need to
build an authorization mechanism, and distribution will just be a
particular "atom" of authorization.

> 5.  Security Considerations
...
>    o  Inner layer authentication: the GRASP communication might not be
>       within a protected channel, then there should be embedded
>       protection in distribution itself.  Public key infrastructure
>       might be involved in this case.

We've already said that GRASP must run inside TLS if there is no ACP.
But I must say that whenever I think about this, it gets messy. Life would
be much simpler if we changed the policy to make the ACP mandatory.

      Brian


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To: anima@ietf.org
References: <1245fe092b154549a46b9a4f4b1d0c7a@XCH-RTP-006.cisco.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
Message-ID: <5631813D.2030402@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 15:15:25 +1300
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Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/anima/lNApC_sxFpgiwRUcZL0irl-W77w>
Subject: Re: [Anima] Adjacency table
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Hi Michael,

So, I'm thinking about how a GRASP implementation might use the adjacency table,
and I have some questions and comments.

1. What is the format and scope of the Node-ID? Is it just an arbitrary
value that has no global meaning, or is it more than that?

2. I would very much like the Interface ID to be the interface index
(a small integer, to be found in ipi6_ifindex in the Advanced Socket API).
There's no benefit and more work in having a name there.

3. Similarly, I would very much like the IP addresses to be binary. Again,
there's no benefit and more work in having them human-readable.

Regards,
   Brian

On 08/10/2015 04:54, Michael Behringer (mbehring) wrote:
> ANIMA WG,
> 
> In the latest version of the ACP draft, I was trying to be clearer on what triggers ACP creation. While thinking about this I came to the conclusion that practically all operations in ANIMA today are really focused around an adjacency table, which I now list in section 5.1 (precondition).
> 
> Also in the bootstrap design team call just now, same thing: What triggers a bootstrap action? And again, it's really anchored around the adjacency table.
> 
> Since this seems a pretty important concept (although quite simple, really), I wanted to illustrate how this all fits together in my mind:
> 
> There are processes feeding the adjacency table; there are processes triggered by it. Discovery feeds the table. But there are also potential other input vectors. Depending on the state of the device, and what it sees in the table, different things happen. And there we go into the bootstrap draft, the ACP draft, or potentially others.
> 
> I guess the reference model should explain this table, because it really links all the documents together, in a way. v
> 
> Does this make sense to everyone? Any things that don't seem right? Thoughts?
> 
> Michael


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From: "Jason Coleman (colemaj)" <colemaj@cisco.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Adjacency table
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From: "Liubing (Leo)" <leo.liubing@huawei.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, Anima WG <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-liu-anima-grasp-distribution-00.txt
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Subject: Re: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-liu-anima-grasp-distribution-00.txt
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Hi Brian,

Thanks for your comments. Please find responses inline.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E
> Carpenter
> Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 11:56 AM
> To: Anima WG
> Subject: Re: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-liu-anima-grasp-distribution-00.tx=
t
>=20
> Just a few comments and questions. I'm sure I will have more comments
> later.
>=20
> I am reasonably convinced that we need to tackle this problem. At the
> moment GRASP can handle two cases that are mentioned:
>=20
> > 2.1.  Whole Domain Distribution
>=20
> That's the GRASP flooding synchronization mode.
[Bing] Yes, it is achieved by overloading the Response message (which is Un=
solicited Response). In technical aspect, I think this message overloading =
is sufficient to achieve the flooding goal.=20
However, I'm still wondering whether it worth to make a new message type to=
 handle the distribution. (The draft also lists this as an Open Question)=20

> > 2.3.  Incremental Distribution
> >
> >    The distribution only goes to the nodes that newly get online.
>=20
> Assuming that nodes request synchronization when they go on line (includi=
ng
> after a sleep to save battery), this will be taken care of by the GRASP u=
nicast
> synchronization mode.
[Bing] Yes, indeed.

> So the problem that remains is selective distribution. There are at least=
 two
> ways to model this:
>=20
> (a) select all nodes that meet certain criteria (e.g. all nodes that supp=
ort
> objectives A, B or C). Flood the information to them.
>=20
> (b) require nodes to subscribe to information X, Y or Z. Flood the inform=
ation
> to subscribers (a so-called pub-sub architecture).
>=20
> Which model do we want? My guess is (a), because we need to be sure that
> Intent for objective A reaches all nodes that support A, and so on.=20

> I think
> that's what the manifest/mandate model in
> draft-peloso-anima-autonomic-function
> would need, too.
>=20
> I also think that (a) would be natural to implement in GRASP. We already
> have to cache the locators of all the ASAs that support a given objective=
, as
> part of the discovery mechanism. So we have that cache available to contr=
ol
> the selective distribution. Or if you actually prefer a pub-sub model, co=
nsider
> that every node that responds to discovery for objective A is automatical=
ly
> subscribed for distribution of all information relevant to objective A.

[Bing] I'm also in favor of (a). A sub/pub model might be too complex for G=
RASP.=20
Besides, the sub/pub might only be able to do selective distribution accord=
ing to objectives. But I don't think we should have such limitation. I'll i=
nclude some text of a possible way to achieve (a) in the next version.

>=20
> > 3.1.1.  Autonomic Domain Boundary
> ...
> >    [Editor's Notes] It is a practical issue that how an autonomic node
> >    recognizes itself as a domain boundary device.  It is not in the
> >    scope of this document.
>=20
> This actually won't be an issue with an ACP in place: only systems within=
 the
> domain will be addressable in the ACP.

[Bing] Yes. I'll explicitly call it out in the next version.

> > 3.1.3.  Arbitrary Injecting Point (Optional)
> >
> >    The distributed object SHOULD be injected at any autonomic node
> >    within the domain (or within a specific group [TBD]).
>=20
> This is the same authorization problem that we have in general. Either we
> accept that anything inside the domain is trusted, or we need to build an
> authorization mechanism,=20
[Bing] I think it's reasonable to consider 3.1.3 essentially as an authoriz=
ation problem, I'll reflex it in the next version.
> and distribution will just be a particular "atom" of
> authorization.
[Bing] I guess you specifically meant the arbitrary injecting in this secti=
on, not the whole distribution behavior as an atom of authorization?


> > 5.  Security Considerations
> ...
> >    o  Inner layer authentication: the GRASP communication might not
> be
> >       within a protected channel, then there should be embedded
> >       protection in distribution itself.  Public key infrastructure
> >       might be involved in this case.
>=20
> We've already said that GRASP must run inside TLS if there is no ACP.
[Bing] I'll reference the GRASP text more explicitly in the next version.
> But I must say that whenever I think about this, it gets messy. Life woul=
d be
> much simpler if we changed the policy to make the ACP mandatory.
[Bing] I don't have a strong opinion on this. But my shallow understanding =
is that maybe it's more flexible for GRASP to run outside an ACP. IIRC, we =
used to discuss there might need the signaling before the ACP is up.

Best regards,
Bing

>       Brian
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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From: "PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE)" <pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, Anima WG <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-peloso-anima-autonomic-function-00.txt
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Cc: "CIAVAGLIA, LAURENT \(LAURENT\)" <laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>
Subject: Re: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-peloso-anima-autonomic-function-00.txt
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Hi Brian,

Thanks for your comments.

Alike you, I'm really interested in making sure these new challenges align =
with the toolkit provided by ANIMA (in general [ANI]) and GRASP (in particu=
lar).
As the proposed signaling protocol between ANIMA entities, GRASP is a first=
-hand candidate for that.

Laurent and I have worked on a tentative mapping with GRASP messages (to be=
 presented in Yokohama), summarized below:

1. As you have well identified, one of the key-feature is to send imperativ=
e
commands:
   - start and stop
   - plus a few variants (fine control of MAPE/OODA loops) as listed in dra=
ft-ciavaglia-anima-coordination

2. Indeed ASA Manifest could be transported over GRASP, however a few quest=
ions appear:
   - IMHO Manifest pertains more to GRASP discovery than synchronization
   - An open point to resolve is that Manifest advertizes both parameters (=
read/write) and metrics (read only)
         - currently technical objective is for parameters only (as far as =
I understand)

3. ASA Mandate could be a form of Intent and thus would benefit from Intent=
 extensions of GRASP.

4. The previous points highlight the need of identifying the different role=
s of "GRASP clients" (e.g. ASAs, AF Management Function, Coordination Funct=
ion...) =20

We're eager to discuss this prior to the session to clarify open issues.

Best regards,

Pierre Peloso




> -----Message d'origine-----
> De=A0: Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Brian E Carpen=
ter
> Envoy=E9=A0: mardi 27 octobre 2015 04:34
> =C0=A0: Anima WG
> Objet=A0: Re: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-peloso-anima-autonomic-function-0=
0.txt
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> This is interesting to read. At the moment I'm mainly interested in wheth=
er
> it presents any new challenges for the GRASP design. Mostly, I think it
> doesn't; the manifests and mandates are essentially declarative data
> structures that can be transmitted by GRASP in its "synchronization" mode=
.
> They might also be candidates for selective distribution, like Intent.
>=20
> However, you have two imperatives: up and down (or start and stop, if you
> prefer).
> In fact we already have 'stop' listed elsewhere, as an emergency button f=
or
> the human operator.
>=20
> GRASP doesn't contain any feature currently for sending an unpredicted 's=
top'
> or 'start' message. Do we need to think about adding that? Or should we
> consider it out-of-band as far as GRASP is concerned?
>=20
> Regards
>    Brian
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima


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To: "Liubing (Leo)" <leo.liubing@huawei.com>, Anima WG <anima@ietf.org>
References: <20151019083714.13883.41992.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <562EF5E0.9050100@gmail.com> <8AE0F17B87264D4CAC7DE0AA6C406F45C2316DDA@nkgeml506-mbx.china.huawei.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
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Subject: Re: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-liu-anima-grasp-distribution-00.txt
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Hi Bing,

Just clarifying one point:

On 29/10/2015 20:24, Liubing (Leo) wrote:
...
>> and distribution will just be a particular "atom" of
>> authorization.
> [Bing] I guess you specifically meant the arbitrary injecting in this section, not the whole distribution behavior as an atom of authorization?

Exactly. If we have to add an authorization mechanism, I think we'll need
to define roles (a concept we discussed earlier) and then authorize individual
agents for various roles.

   Brian


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To: "Liubing (Leo)" <leo.liubing@huawei.com>, Anima WG <anima@ietf.org>
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From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
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Subject: [Anima] If no ACP [was I-D Action: draft-liu-anima-grasp-distribution-00.txt]
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Changing the subject for this point:

On 29/10/2015 20:24, Liubing (Leo) wrote:
...
>>> 5.  Security Considerations
>> ...
>>>    o  Inner layer authentication: the GRASP communication might not
>> be
>>>       within a protected channel, then there should be embedded
>>>       protection in distribution itself.  Public key infrastructure
>>>       might be involved in this case.
>>
>> We've already said that GRASP must run inside TLS if there is no ACP.
> [Bing] I'll reference the GRASP text more explicitly in the next version.
>> But I must say that whenever I think about this, it gets messy. Life would be
>> much simpler if we changed the policy to make the ACP mandatory.
> [Bing] I don't have a strong opinion on this. But my shallow understanding is that maybe it's more flexible for GRASP to run outside an ACP. IIRC, we used to discuss there might need the signaling before the ACP is up.

Yes, certainly there needs to be some GRASP traffic before the ACP is up,
but that might only be insecure discovery messages.

For more general use without the ACP, we have to solve several problems:
node ID, domain ID, certificates, domain boundary detection,...

It will just be easier if we always let the ACP do all that work!

   Brian


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To: "PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE)" <pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.com>, Anima WG <anima@ietf.org>
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From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
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Cc: "CIAVAGLIA, LAURENT \(LAURENT\)" <laurent.ciavaglia@alcatel-lucent.com>
Subject: Re: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-peloso-anima-autonomic-function-00.txt
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Bonjour Pierre,

On 30/10/2015 05:04, PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) wrote:
> Hi Brian,
>=20
> Thanks for your comments.
>=20
> Alike you, I'm really interested in making sure these new challenges al=
ign with the toolkit provided by ANIMA (in general [ANI]) and GRASP (in p=
articular).
> As the proposed signaling protocol between ANIMA entities, GRASP is a f=
irst-hand candidate for that.
>=20
> Laurent and I have worked on a tentative mapping with GRASP messages (t=
o be presented in Yokohama), summarized below:
>=20
> 1. As you have well identified, one of the key-feature is to send imper=
ative
> commands:
>    - start and stop
>    - plus a few variants (fine control of MAPE/OODA loops) as listed in=
 draft-ciavaglia-anima-coordination

In any case, we need to decide whether to make the imperatives part of GR=
ASP.
Or would we then be duplicating NETCONF?

>=20
> 2. Indeed ASA Manifest could be transported over GRASP, however a few q=
uestions appear:
>    - IMHO Manifest pertains more to GRASP discovery than synchronizatio=
n

Well, at the moment discovery is limited - it doesn't discover any proper=
ties.

The word "synchronisation" entered our vocabulary because of the discussi=
on
over DNCP, to be honest. It may be that we should change the word (especi=
ally
seeing the requirements in draft-liu-anima-grasp-distribution).

>    - An open point to resolve is that Manifest advertizes both paramete=
rs (read/write) and metrics (read only)
>          - currently technical objective is for parameters only (as far=
 as I understand)

Well, the word "parameter" is fairly general. Certainly in a negotiation =
it implies
read/write, but there's nothing in the definition of an objective that pr=
events
it being read-only. Actually in synchronization/distribution it is read-o=
nly.

> 3. ASA Mandate could be a form of Intent and thus would benefit from In=
tent extensions of GRASP.

Yes, I think so. And again - if we use the GRASP objective format, that s=
ays
nothing about the semantics of the content. It is not for nothing that th=
e
CDDL definition of an objective shows the value as "any". The designer of=

an objective has complete freedom.

(Incidentally, that's why I really like the change to CBOR. This 'any'
concept is very easy to handle in a language like Python, too: instantiat=
e
a variable of class objective and assign whatever data structure you
want to objective.value.)

> 4. The previous points highlight the need of identifying the different =
roles of "GRASP clients" (e.g. ASAs, AF Management Function, Coordination=
 Function...)

Right. But GRASP as a protocol doesn't care about that; it's just a carri=
er.

> We're eager to discuss this prior to the session to clarify open issues=
=2E

Unfortunately I won't be in Yokohama, but Bing will be there.

    Brian

> Best regards,
>=20
> Pierre Peloso
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Anima [mailto:anima-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Brian E Carpe=
nter
>> Envoy=C3=A9 : mardi 27 octobre 2015 04:34
>> =C3=80 : Anima WG
>> Objet : Re: [Anima] I-D Action: draft-peloso-anima-autonomic-function-=
00.txt
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> This is interesting to read. At the moment I'm mainly interested in wh=
ether
>> it presents any new challenges for the GRASP design. Mostly, I think i=
t
>> doesn't; the manifests and mandates are essentially declarative data
>> structures that can be transmitted by GRASP in its "synchronization" m=
ode.
>> They might also be candidates for selective distribution, like Intent.=

>>
>> However, you have two imperatives: up and down (or start and stop, if =
you
>> prefer).
>> In fact we already have 'stop' listed elsewhere, as an emergency butto=
n for
>> the human operator.
>>
>> GRASP doesn't contain any feature currently for sending an unpredicted=
 'stop'
>> or 'start' message. Do we need to think about adding that? Or should w=
e
>> consider it out-of-band as far as GRASP is concerned?
>>
>> Regards
>>    Brian
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Anima mailing list
>> Anima@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
> .
>=20


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Comments: In-reply-to "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com> message dated "Tue, 20 Oct 2015 13:09:48 -0400."
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Subject: Re: [Anima] [ANIMA] Self-Managed Networks
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--=-=-=
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Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:
    > While i think we should be cautious about attepting to boil the ocean,
    > I certainly prefer GRASP plus good distribution design as an
    > information distribution mechanism rather than BGP.

Is "BGP" a typo? Did you mean ACP?

If so, are you suggesting that we shouldn't have an IP-based ACP, but
should rather run things on top of GRASP?

If GRASP is going to do all these things, such as prioritzation of events,
then wouldn't we be better off to start some place like MMTQ or that other
protocol that starts with D, which I can't recall, sitting here on the
airplane.  (But I'll reply once I look it up)

=2D-=20
Michael Richardson
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Comments: In-reply-to Toerless Eckert <eckert@cisco.com> message dated "Tue, 20 Oct 2015 09:17:11 -0700."
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--=-=-=
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Toerless Eckert <eckert@cisco.com> wrote:
    > Before anima, every distributed function we designed in the IETF used
    > its own reinvented communication paradigm. The only common mechanism
    > was use of IP packets, but not even that was the lowest common
    > denominator (IS-IS anybody).

Yes, but at this point, we have a huge number of already invented (and code=
d,
and deployed) protocols which run across IP.  So, all we need to do is make
sure that we can move IP packets during an outage and during initial
deployment... that's why we have an ACP that routes IP packets, not GRASP.

If we run everything across GRASP, then we don't need routing, numbering or
connectivity.  We can run everything over link-local, or even across LLDP or
ethernet.=20

I think that the ASA and Intent negotiation and subsequent implementation is
going to be difficult enough as it is.  I don't see the value in making GRA=
SP
into a kitchen sink.

=2D-=20
Michael Richardson
=2Don the road-



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To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, Anima WG <anima@ietf.org>
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To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, Anima WG <anima@ietf.org>
References: <CAJwYUrENRnr28LmQyY379b6EAySPGxm99FX4XU3wo16Qt9ssCg@mail.gmail.com> <29518.1445276383@sandelman.ca> <CAC0HMNQekHEBe9gJ7ST=iXmjboSrwthCQSgpWY_JY09tDabOYQ@mail.gmail.com> <56253ECD.9010701@joelhalpern.com> <562545FC.5060905@gmail.com> <CAJwYUrFZHGPO3Md2MFUqdLyVDbr9EytVTCtoCVTO4HEi2a7pzw@mail.gmail.com> <20151020161711.GB10666@cisco.com> <24475.1446213543@sandelman.ca>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
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Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 08:16:21 +1300
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Subject: Re: [Anima] [ANIMA] Self-Managed Networks
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On 31/10/2015 02:59, Michael Richardson wrote:
> 
> Toerless Eckert <eckert@cisco.com> wrote:
>     > Before anima, every distributed function we designed in the IETF used
>     > its own reinvented communication paradigm. The only common mechanism
>     > was use of IP packets, but not even that was the lowest common
>     > denominator (IS-IS anybody).
> 
> Yes, but at this point, we have a huge number of already invented (and coded,
> and deployed) protocols which run across IP.  So, all we need to do is make
> sure that we can move IP packets during an outage and during initial
> deployment... that's why we have an ACP that routes IP packets, not GRASP.

Sure. GRASP provides formats and a state machine for certain types of
interactions that we think will be generally useful to support autonomic
processes. But when a particular interaction doesn't map well into GRASP,
the ACP will provide a secure IP service among trusted nodes, so you can do
anything else that you need to.

> If we run everything across GRASP, then we don't need routing, numbering or
> connectivity.  We can run everything over link-local, or even across LLDP or
> ethernet. 
> 
> I think that the ASA and Intent negotiation and subsequent implementation is
> going to be difficult enough as it is.  I don't see the value in making GRASP
> into a kitchen sink.

No. But on the other hand, when we identify a class of interaction that seems to
be needed by all or most ASAs, we might choose to support it.

   Brian


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To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, Anima WG <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Anima] Transporting ASA Manifest over GRASP     [was draft-peloso-anima-AF]
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Subject: [Anima] Transporting ASA Manifest over GRASP [was draft-peloso-anima-AF]
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To: "PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE)" <pierre.peloso@alcatel-lucent.com>, Anima WG <anima@ietf.org>
References: <20151019223449.13932.3004.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <562EF0B9.5040106@gmail.com> <CCC5C4E24279804E8525F189C60FFABCB0B0EF86@FR712WXCHMBA12.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <563299A5.1080604@gmail.com> <CCC5C4E24279804E8525F189C60FFABCB0B0F963@FR712WXCHMBA12.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Anima] Transporting ASA Manifest over GRASP [was draft-peloso-anima-AF]
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On 31/10/2015 10:26, PELOSO, PIERRE (PIERRE) wrote:
> Hi Brian and Anima Folks,
> 
> As said in my previous answer I dedicate a specific thread to the discussion around transporting ASA Manifest over GRASP, as I think that deserves it.
> 
>>> 2. Indeed ASA Manifest could be transported over GRASP, however a few
>> questions appear:
>>>    - IMHO Manifest pertains more to GRASP discovery than
>>> synchronization
>>
>> Well, at the moment discovery is limited - it doesn't discover any
>> properties.
>> The word "synchronisation" entered our vocabulary because of the discussion
>> over DNCP, to be honest. It may be that we should change the word (especially
>> seeing the requirements in draft-liu-anima-grasp-distribution).
>>
> From process point of view what I understand of GRASP:
>  - discovery is: When an ASA bootstraps, it tries to discover if other ASA are sharing technical objectives with it.

Yes, although in fact discovery can be repeated at any time (and probably should be,
since we would expect the discovery cache to be finite and subject to LRU logic).

Also there is another thing an ASA will need to do at boot time: register with
its local GRASP engine that it supports certain objectives.

> For that purpose this ASA send a discovery message with a technical objective in it. (the option format of the objective specifies the use of the objective-name (for identification purpose) but specifies that no any field should be provided as the any is meant to carry the objective value - page 29 of grasp draft).

There's an exception which is the so-called rapid mode, but logically that can be decomposed
into discovery immediately followed by a request.

>  - negotiation is : When the ASA intends to modify the objective value (let's say by sending a command to the equipment) he before needs to agree with other ASA which share this objective. In that case the option format contains both the objective-name (for identification purpose) and the proposed value (for negotiation purpose) in the ?any field.

Right. And typically we assume that there is a dependency of some kind involved - for
example, a finite resource pool that the ASAs share, or the action of one ASA
might counteract the action of another.

>  - synchronization is: When the ASA needs to share with other GRASP user that the value of a given objective is X, then this ASA sends.

Yes, but either in request/response mode or unsoclicited mode.

> Hence in my understanding Discovery happens mainly during bootstrapping, while negotiation and synchronization happen roughly each time the ASA executes its control loop (and decides to modify a value).

If that value might in some affect a peer ASA, which might not always be the case.
Again, for a finite resource, if an ASA has enough of the resource, it could
do its job without any negotiation, until it runs out of resource. But if it's
doing path optimisation, it might want to resynch with its peers at fairly
high frequency.

> If the above is correct, I would then guess that a technical objective would resemble in a discovery message issued by a load balancing ASA:
> Objective-name: Metric of interface IP@10.1.2.3
> Objective-flag: N
> Loop-count: ?
> Any: void (hence not even present)
> 
> While when issued by the same ASA during negotiation:
> Objective-name: Metric of interface IP@10.1.2.3
> Objective-flag: N
> Loop-count: ?
> Any: 1000 (proposed value)

Yes. (I think I would make the interface address part of the value
of the objective, but that's a design detail.) This is quite easy
to represent. The CBOR diagnostic format of the messages for a simple
case (the money negotiation I showed a couple of meetings ago) is
something like this:

discovery   [1, 6075274, ["money", 0, 6]]
response    [2, 6075274, [h'2406e007617d000128ccdc4c97036781']]
request     [3, 5320019, ["money", 1, 6, 100]]
negotiate   [4, 5320019, ["money", 1, 5, 75]]
negotiate   [4, 5320019, ["money", 1, 4, 50]]
end(accept) [5, 5320019, [101]]

(The flag is 0 for discovery, 1 for negotiate. The loop count
starts at 6 which is the proposed default.)

so yours would start, for example,

discovery   [1, 2718185, ["metric", 0, 6]]
response    [2, 2718185, [h'2406e007617d000128ccdc4c97036781']]
request     [3, 6417312, ["metric", 1, 6, [h'0a010203', 1000]]

> If my understanding of GRASP is still correct at that point and hoping I understand well the mind of draft-peloso authors :-), then:
> - From a life-cycle point of view (see pages 15-16) when an ASA concludes its instantiation (bootstrapping in the simplest cases) it discloses what are the parameters handled by its control loop, that is the Manifest. It is meant to say to Coordination and the AF Management Functions, which are the parameters manipulated by the control loop.
> E.g. the Manifest of the load balancing ASA used above would have in its Manifest an entry in its Possible Actions that would be : Metric of interface IP@10.1.2.3

Yes. But it seems likely that the ASA will be coded to handle the metric of
any interface that it discovers, which is why I suggest it should be a
part of the objective value. However, I can see that it also needs to
be mentioned in the manifest.

So this all seems to work.

   Brian

> 
> Hence, if I was given the mission to use GRASP to create an implementation of draft-peloso, I would use the discovery message to disclose the Manifest or more exactly each of the entries of the Manifest. To which I see two advantages:
>   1. that would work without any modification to GRASP
>   2. that would respect the logics of GRASP in using discovery at bootstrap time
> 
>>>    - An open point to resolve is that Manifest advertizes both parameters
>> (read/write) and metrics (read only)
>>>          - currently technical objective is for parameters only (as
>>> far as I understand)
>>
>> Well, the word "parameter" is fairly general. Certainly in a negotiation it
>> implies read/write, but there's nothing in the definition of an objective
>> that prevents it being read-only. Actually in synchronization/distribution it
>> is read-only.
> 
> That is perfect then, the Manifest discloses in discovery messages both :
>   - the parameters with the objective-flags set to N (valid for discovery and negotiation),
>   - the metrics with the objective-flags set to S (valid for discovery and synchronization)
>  
> That fits perfectly well, as the Manifest discloses the ASA capacities at bootstrap time:
>   - the parameters to have Coordination informed of which parameters will be modified, then coordination can compute ASA interactions to pre-determine conflicts and then avoid them (hence to have a sort of negotiation)
>   - the metrics to have other ASA informed that this metric is available for them to use as an input in their control loop.
> 
> Then later-on at run-time of the ASA:
>   - the coordination can make sure the parameters enforced value will not collapse the network by witnessing and possibly negotiating these values,  
>   - the information distribution can handle the sharing of metrics value between ASAs (that would then be collaborating ones using the synchronization messages).
> 
> At least that is how I perceive the philosophy of ANI at the service of ASA.
> 
> BR,
> 
> Pierre
> 


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Subject: Re: [Anima] Adjacency table
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--=-=-=
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Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
    > 2. I would very much like the Interface ID to be the interface index =
(a
    > small integer, to be found in ipi6_ifindex in the Advanced Socket API=
).
    > There's no benefit and more work in having a name there.

    > 3. Similarly, I would very much like the IP addresses to be
    > binary. Again, there's no benefit and more work in having them
    > human-readable.

These comments seem to suggest that what Michael presented is somehow how t=
he
code works, rather than how the humans interpret the contents of the bits in
the table.=20

I didn't read it as anything other than the human readable form of exactly
what you asked for...

=2D-=20
Michael Richardson
=2Don the road-



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Michael Behringer (mbehring) <mbehring@cisco.com> wrote:
    > We've tried other words before, for example "area". All of which have
    > the same problem - they've been used before. (And, btw, I found "area"
    > nicer).

    > I agree that it would be nice to have a new term, but I can't find a
    > good one. Suggestions?

Pick a term you like, and translate it to another language, and then
import it back to english as eliterated.


=2D-=20
Michael Richardson
=2Don the road-



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To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
References: <1245fe092b154549a46b9a4f4b1d0c7a@XCH-RTP-006.cisco.com> <5631813D.2030402@gmail.com> <27538.1446270166@sandelman.ca>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
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Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 07:56:37 +1300
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Cc: anima@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Anima] Adjacency table
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On 31/10/2015 18:42, Michael Richardson wrote:
> 
> Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
>     > 2. I would very much like the Interface ID to be the interface index (a
>     > small integer, to be found in ipi6_ifindex in the Advanced Socket API).
>     > There's no benefit and more work in having a name there.
> 
>     > 3. Similarly, I would very much like the IP addresses to be
>     > binary. Again, there's no benefit and more work in having them
>     > human-readable.
> 
> These comments seem to suggest that what Michael presented is somehow how the
> code works, rather than how the humans interpret the contents of the bits in
> the table. 
> 
> I didn't read it as anything other than the human readable form of exactly
> what you asked for...

Sure. But when we briefly considered JSON for GRASP messages, I got very upset
by the inefficiency of always representing addresses in ASCII.

    Brian

