From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Wed Jun 11 11:11:32 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA12960 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 11:11:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5BFB9H07039 for ans-research-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 11:11:09 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5BFB8m07036 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 11:11:08 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA12956 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 11:11:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Q7De-00012Q-00 for ans-research-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 11:08:58 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Q7De-00012M-00 for ans-research-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 11:08:58 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5BFAom07015; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 11:10:55 -0400 Received: from sun13.bham.ac.uk (sun13.bham.ac.uk [147.188.128.145]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5BF9gm06940 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 11:09:43 -0400 Received: from [147.188.128.127] (helo=bham.ac.uk) by sun13.bham.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 19Q7EH-0006gh-00 for ans-research@www1.ietf.org; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 16:09:37 +0100 Received: from engmail.bham.ac.uk ([147.188.146.249] helo=engmail.adf.bham.ac.uk) by bham.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19Q7EH-0000UO-00 for ans-research@www1.ietf.org; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 16:09:37 +0100 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 16:09:25 +0100 Message-ID: <4A6359613D1AE645A362805BB11E05211808A6@engmail.adf.bham.ac.uk> Thread-Topic: Definition of scalability Thread-Index: AcMwK3kfxlkAsa+mSquIFAl8wrQpxw== From: "Costas Constantinou" To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by www1.ietf.org id h5BF9hm06942 Subject: [Ans-research] Definition of scalability Sender: ans-research-admin@www1.ietf.org Errors-To: ans-research-admin@www1.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ans-research@www1.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Ad hoc Network Scaling Research List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello, This is an attempt to follow-up the action point given out at the end of the ANS-research meeting on 1 June 2003 at MobiHoc '03 in Annapolis. As I am new to both the research topic and your community (I am a radio engineer), please feel free to shoot down as irrelevant anything I have to say, but please provide me with explanations on why exactly I am a complete "fraud." ;-) There are four distinct major issues (and numerous minor ones) that you are all raising, and it is perhaps worthwhile to attempt to tackle them one at a time. Question 1: What are the quantifiable figures of merit/performance we can agree as being relevant (i.e. Zygmunt's SOMETHING#2 vector in his 8 April 2003 message) - more on this below. Question 2: What are the free variables (i.e. Zygmunt's SOMETHING#1) that we wish the figures of merit to scale with respect to. Question 3: How do we sample the (possibly highly) multi-dimensional space of free variables in a meaningful manner that enables us to compare like with like. Question 4: How do we map detailed local protocols/rules/etc. to observed scaling behaviour of the figures of merit, *reliably* and *unambiguously*. All these questions are tough, but questions 2 and 3 are likely to be the most complex ones leading to disagreements and considerable discussion. However, before we scale "mount Everest," could we agree to establish a "base camp" by tackling question 1? This is not as innocuous as it might seem to the casual observer. The previous discussions on the list amply demonstrate that it will be hard to resist the temptation to throw in issues belonging to the other questions, but I think we need to impose some self-discipline, just to make tangible progress. Also, I would like to clarify that any research issues that are not measurable quantitatively as suggested above, need to be excluded from this thread. For example, does security fall in this category? Can I measure a quantity that quantifies how secure a network is? I am getting conflicting opinions on this! having said this, it does not mean that any such issues are not valid MANET research topics, and they still belong to this research group's activities and discussions. My highly incomplete (and almost certainly flawed) offering to the first question is: a) Appropriately defined (to account for information that reaches its destination with unacceptable delay) packet loss rate by the network b) Average peak power consumption per node (in some arbitrary units) c) Total spectrum bandwidth occupied Finally, it is important to remember that the age-old argument of bell-heads versus net-heads ought to be weighted in favour of the net-heads in this instance - "don't care how something is done, as long as it delivers with minimal cost to the end-user." For example, the overhead/control traffic or speed of re-convergence of the network to mobility induced failures are instances of "don't care." Similarly I don't care if the computational complexity of my algorithms was high, or whether the offered traffic was unicast, broadcast or multicast. On the other hand, has my battery run down, did my message get across (securely, timely, etc.), and did I end up consuming all the spectrum in the process are arguably more relevant questions. The former topics are of course important to researchers, but they should not be the *measure* of performance and scalability. Over to you for tearing up these thoughts! Costas. ********************************************* Dr Costas Constantinou Senior Lecturer in Communications Engineering Electronic, Electrical & Computer Engineering The University of Birmingham Edgbaston, Birmingham, B15 2TT Tel: +44-121-414-4303 Fax: +44-121-414-4291 Email: c.constantinou@bham.ac.uk ********************************************* _______________________________________________ Ans-research mailing list Ans-research@www1.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ans-research From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Wed Jun 11 14:56:43 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA21506 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:56:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5BIuGN25910 for ans-research-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:56:16 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5BIuGm25907 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:56:16 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA21499 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:56:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19QAjY-0002mE-00 for ans-research-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:54:08 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19QAjX-0002mB-00 for ans-research-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:54:07 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5BIuFm25899; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:56:15 -0400 Received: from tomts11-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts11.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.55]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5BItom25882 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:55:50 -0400 Received: from yahoo.com ([65.93.182.132]) by tomts11-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.32 201-253-122-126-132-20030307) with ESMTP id <20030611185546.CLIR483.tomts11-srv.bellnexxia.net@yahoo.com>; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:55:46 -0400 Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:55:45 -0400 Subject: Re: [Ans-research] Definition of scalability Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: To: "Costas Constantinou" From: S Woodside In-Reply-To: <4A6359613D1AE645A362805BB11E05211808A6@engmail.adf.bham.ac.uk> Message-Id: <4ECB0B13-9C3E-11D7-9AA9-000393414368@yahoo.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Sender: ans-research-admin@www1.ietf.org Errors-To: ans-research-admin@www1.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ans-research@www1.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Ad hoc Network Scaling Research List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wednesday, June 11, 2003, at 11:09 AM, Costas Constantinou wrote: > Hello, > > This is an attempt to follow-up the action point given out at the end > of the ANS-research meeting on 1 June 2003 at MobiHoc '03 in > Annapolis. Are notes/minutes/slides available? simon -- www.simonwoodside.com -- 99% Devil, 1% Angel _______________________________________________ Ans-research mailing list Ans-research@www1.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ans-research From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Wed Jun 11 17:19:47 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA03530 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 17:19:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5BLJLn06494 for ans-research-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 17:19:21 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5BLJLm06487 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 17:19:21 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA03510 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 17:19:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19QCy1-00043L-00 for ans-research-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 17:17:13 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19QCy0-00043I-00 for ans-research-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 17:17:12 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5BLJ8m06455; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 17:19:08 -0400 Received: from rrmail01.lab.flarion.com (mail.flarion.com [63.103.94.23]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5BLIkm06429 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 17:18:46 -0400 Received: by rrmail01.lab.flarion.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 17:18:36 -0400 Message-ID: <748C6D0A58C0F94CA63C198B6674697A0171914E@ftmail.lab.flarion.com> From: Corson Scott To: "'S Woodside'" , "'Costas Constantinou'" Cc: "'ans-research@www1.ietf.org'" Subject: RE: [Ans-research] Definition of scalability Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 17:18:32 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: ans-research-admin@www1.ietf.org Errors-To: ans-research-admin@www1.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ans-research@www1.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Ad hoc Network Scaling Research List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Notes/minutes will be posted shortly. Am putting slides on the website as I receive them. -Scott > -----Original Message----- > From: S Woodside [mailto:sbwoodside@yahoo.com] > Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 2:56 PM > To: Costas Constantinou > Cc: ans-research@www1.ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ans-research] Definition of scalability > > > > On Wednesday, June 11, 2003, at 11:09 AM, Costas Constantinou wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > This is an attempt to follow-up the action point given out > at the end > > of the ANS-research meeting on 1 June 2003 at MobiHoc '03 > in > Annapolis. > > Are notes/minutes/slides available? > > simon > > -- > www.simonwoodside.com -- 99% Devil, 1% Angel > > _______________________________________________ > Ans-research mailing list > Ans-research@www1.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ans-research > _______________________________________________ Ans-research mailing list Ans-research@www1.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ans-research From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Sat Jun 14 10:06:41 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA25603 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 10:06:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5EE6ES02085 for ans-research-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 10:06:14 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5EE6Em02081 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 10:06:14 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA25542 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 10:06:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19RBdR-0006Ha-00 for ans-research-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 10:04:01 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19RBdQ-0006HW-00 for ans-research-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 10:04:00 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5EC71a27547; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 08:07:01 -0400 Received: from rrmail01.lab.flarion.com (mail.flarion.com [63.103.94.23]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5EC6vm27516 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 08:06:57 -0400 Received: by rrmail01.lab.flarion.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id ; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 08:06:47 -0400 Message-ID: <748C6D0A58C0F94CA63C198B6674697A017192C5@ftmail.lab.flarion.com> From: Corson Scott To: "'ans-research@www1.ietf.org'" Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 08:06:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain Subject: [Ans-research] Minutes/Presentations Sender: ans-research-admin@www1.ietf.org Errors-To: ans-research-admin@www1.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ans-research@www1.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Ad hoc Network Scaling Research List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , The minutes and nearly all the presentations can now be found on the website. http://www.flarion.com/ans-research/ -Scott _______________________________________________ Ans-research mailing list Ans-research@www1.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ans-research From mailnull@www1.ietf.org Sat Jun 14 17:00:20 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA04243 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 17:00:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5EKxqd25987 for ans-research-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 16:59:52 -0400 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5EKxqm25984 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 16:59:52 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA04216 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 16:59:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19RI5j-00005b-00 for ans-research-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 16:57:39 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19RI5i-00005X-00 for ans-research-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 16:57:38 -0400 Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5EJCxa20212; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 15:12:59 -0400 Received: from mail.eecis.udel.edu (mail.eecis.udel.edu [128.4.40.12]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5EJC1m20198 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 15:12:01 -0400 Received: by mail.eecis.udel.edu (Postfix, from userid 62) id 75E7B329B7; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 15:12:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from buckwheat.cis.udel.edu (buckwheat.cis.udel.edu [128.4.131.43]) by mail.eecis.udel.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE24732974; Sat, 14 Jun 2003 15:12:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 15:12:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Sonny Rajagopalan X-X-Sender: To: Corson Scott Cc: "'ans-research@www1.ietf.org'" Subject: Re: [Ans-research] Minutes/Presentations In-Reply-To: <748C6D0A58C0F94CA63C198B6674697A017192C5@ftmail.lab.flarion.com> Message-ID: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.0 required=6.0 tests=DEPT_RCVD,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, SPAM_PHRASE_02_03,USER_AGENT_PINE version=2.43 X-Sanitizer: This message has been sanitized! X-Sanitizer-URL: http://mailtools.anomy.net/ X-Sanitizer-Rev: UDEL-ECECIS: Sanitizer.pm,v 1.64 2002/10/22 MIME-Version: 1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: ans-research-admin@www1.ietf.org Errors-To: ans-research-admin@www1.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ans-research@www1.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Ad hoc Network Scaling Research List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Hello Everyone, We were to make a brief presentation at the ANS meeting with our thoughts, but owing to time constraints, we decided we would send the presentation to the mailing list instead. Please find in the following link a ppt with some of our *thoughts* on scalability. I would very much appreciate any comments/clarifications/suggestions about the points made in the slides. http://www.cis.udel.edu/~rajagopa/ANS/ Thanks. Moderator: I sent this e-mail with the ppt as an attachment a little while ago, but got a message back saying the message is too big, so I posted the ppt on my website. Cheers, Sonny. ---- From the desk of Sonny Rajagopalan @ http://www.cis.udel.edu/~rajagopa ---- On Sat, 14 Jun 2003, Corson Scott wrote: > The minutes and nearly all the presentations can now be found on the > website. > > http://www.flarion.com/ans-research/ > > -Scott > _______________________________________________ > Ans-research mailing list > Ans-research@www1.ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ans-research > _______________________________________________ Ans-research mailing list Ans-research@www1.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ans-research