From apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 23:44:31 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-apps-discuss-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13C513A691F; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 23:44:31 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 800B33A6943 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 23:44:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.046 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.046 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1ZneEzHCGmkY for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 23:44:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-ea-mail-3.sun.com (sca-ea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.43.21]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97C7D3A686A for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 23:44:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm-central-02.central.sun.com ([129.147.62.5]) by sca-ea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id mA37iRqs029095 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 07:44:27 GMT Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (binky.Central.Sun.COM [129.153.128.104]) by dm-central-02.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL, v2.2) with ESMTP id mA37iRAB000358 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 00:44:27 -0700 (MST) Received: from binky.central.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id mA37aI2D107212; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 01:36:18 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.central.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id mA37a0tQ107210; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 01:36:00 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: binky.central.sun.com: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 01:36:00 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams To: "Douglas J. Papenthien" Subject: Re: Followup on IETF72 discussion of FTP protocol extensions andupdates Message-ID: <20081103073559.GN106460@Sun.COM> References: <20081031210011.GB102869@Sun.COM> <88DDA3A298D44C648419EE352C0651E7@rhinooffice.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <88DDA3A298D44C648419EE352C0651E7@rhinooffice.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 09:10:09PM -0500, Douglas J. Papenthien wrote: > >>Personally, I'd rather see SFTP (or FTP over SSH) improved enough to > >>make FTP go away. But I don't think I mind this proposed WG. > > > >Yep. > > I don't know that I particularly agree with this sentiment. Much like the > "transition" to IPv6, I think you're going to be hard pressed to have much > luck stamping out FTP in favor of anything else regardless of the pros and > cons. SSHv2 and SFTP have pretty widespread deployment. The situation is not remotely comparable to IPv6. Also, good old protocols never die. TELNET is still around, and so is rsh. That does not justify continuing to standardize extensions to them. That said, there may well be good reasons for wanting to extend FTP in spite of the existence of SSHv2/SFTP. I suspect that some will argue that SSHv2/SFTP have performance issues, and though I believe those are the result of implementation issues, not protocol design, perception sometimes carries the day. If there are enough people who want to do this work, and the IESG does not object, then a WG may well get chartered to do the work. I take no stand yet on the issue of whether a WG should be chartered to work on FTP, but I do wish those who want to work on it worked on SFTP instead. _______________________________________________ Apps-Discuss mailing list Apps-Discuss@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss From apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 3 05:32:17 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-apps-discuss-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74F003A6849; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 05:32:17 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 942533A6AF2 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 05:32:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mVfldxGxLTya for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 05:32:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from bs.jck.com (ns.jck.com [209.187.148.211]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07A5C3A6B9A for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 05:32:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=p3.JCK.COM) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1KwzXE-000ECn-5G; Mon, 03 Nov 2008 08:32:00 -0500 Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 08:31:59 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Nicolas Williams , "Douglas J. Papenthien" Subject: Re: Followup on IETF72 discussion of FTP protocol extensions andupdates Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20081103073559.GN106460@Sun.COM> References: <20081031210011.GB102869@Sun.COM> <88DDA3A298D44C648419EE352C0651E7@rhinooffice.net> <20081103073559.GN106460@Sun.COM> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org --On Monday, 03 November, 2008 01:36 -0600 Nicolas Williams wrote: >... > That said, there may well be good reasons for wanting to > extend FTP in spite of the existence of SSHv2/SFTP. I suspect > that some will argue that SSHv2/SFTP have performance issues, > and though I believe those are the result of implementation > issues, not protocol design, perception sometimes carries the > day. If there are enough people who want to do this work, and > the IESG does not object, then a WG may well get chartered to > do the work. > > I take no stand yet on the issue of whether a WG should be > chartered to work on FTP, but I do wish those who want to work > on it worked on SFTP instead. Let me suggest a different approach to thinking about this. Extensions happen because they serve a perceived need and people care enough about them to create multiple implementations, standardized or not. Conversely, if the IETF standardizes something that no one cares about, we won't see more implementations than if we had not touched it. The IETF can contribute only three things: (i) community review, which sometimes improves the technical quality of a specification and sometimes filters out bad ideas, (ii) a clear and standardized specification that facilitates having implementations of the extensions be interoperable, (iii) standardization of verb and parameter strings to increase the odds that they are used the same way in different implementations. My personal criteria for a WG follow closely on that observation about implementations and those three possible contributions. There need to be people, groups, or organizations who are interested in implementing any given extension, so it is not just a single-company/ single-product idea. There need to be people who are willing to do serious and significant work on the specification in the IETF, in review, discussion, and document-editing. And, even if we decide to not standardize individual extensions, it seems to me that registries of command forms and their variations worthwhile (but registry creation alone may not justify a WG). With regard to comparison with other protocols, FTP has two key, closely-related, characteristics that differentiates it from SFTP, TFTP, file transfer over HTTP, and so on. Those characteristics are the use of separate command and data streams/connections and the asynchronous command design that facilitates. That arrangement has distinct advantages in some situations, such as when files are large or transfers slow. It is pathological for deep-NAT environments, but that is at least one of the reasons we have other protocols for file transfer. But, e.g., SFTP seems to be to be a possible good argument against an extension that makes FTP single-stream, but not against other extensions to FTP. john _______________________________________________ Apps-Discuss mailing list Apps-Discuss@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss From apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 3 06:03:36 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-apps-discuss-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E2123A6A44; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 06:03:36 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 139C63A6A44 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 06:03:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.974 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.974 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.229, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jKDRqdNgCqXR for ; 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Mon, 03 Nov 2008 09:03:31 -0400 Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 09:03:27 -0400 From: Barry Leiba To: John C Klensin Subject: Re: Followup on IETF72 discussion of FTP protocol extensions andupdates Message-ID: <8309C8E5E903A1336FD9A50B@dyn9002042072.watson.ibm.com> In-Reply-To: References: <20081031210011.GB102869@Sun.COM> <88DDA3A298D44C648419EE352C0651E7@rhinooffice.net> <20081103073559.GN106460@Sun.COM> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org, Nicolas Williams X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org PiBNeSBwZXJzb25hbCBjcml0ZXJpYSBmb3IgYSBXRyBmb2xsb3cgY2xvc2VseSBvbiB0aGF0IG9i c2VydmF0aW9uCj4gYWJvdXQgaW1wbGVtZW50YXRpb25zIGFuZCB0aG9zZSB0aHJlZSBwb3NzaWJs ZSBjb250cmlidXRpb25zLgo+IFRoZXJlIG5lZWQgdG8gYmUgcGVvcGxlLCBncm91cHMsIG9yIG9y Z2FuaXphdGlvbnMgd2hvIGFyZQo+IGludGVyZXN0ZWQgaW4gaW1wbGVtZW50aW5nIGFueSBnaXZl biBleHRlbnNpb24sIHNvIGl0IGlzIG5vdAo+IGp1c3QgYSBzaW5nbGUtY29tcGFueS8gc2luZ2xl LXByb2R1Y3QgaWRlYS4gIFRoZXJlIG5lZWQgdG8gYmUKPiBwZW9wbGUgd2hvIGFyZSB3aWxsaW5n IHRvIGRvIHNlcmlvdXMgYW5kIHNpZ25pZmljYW50IHdvcmsgb24gdGhlCj4gc3BlY2lmaWNhdGlv biBpbiB0aGUgSUVURiwgaW4gcmV2aWV3LCBkaXNjdXNzaW9uLCBhbmQKPiBkb2N1bWVudC1lZGl0 aW5nLgoKQXMgY28taW5zdGlnYXRvciBoZXJlLCBsZXQgbWUgbm90ZSB0aGF0IEkgYWJzb2x1dGVs eSBhZ3JlZSB3aXRoIEpvaG4gb24gdGhpcy4gIElmIAp0aGVyZSdzIGEgcmVhc29uYWJsZSBncm91 cCB0aGF0IHRoaW5rcyB0aGVzZSAoYW5kL29yIG90aGVyKSBGVFAgZXh0ZW5zaW9ucyBzaG91bGQg CmJlIHN0YW5kYXJkaXplZCAtLSBldmVuIGlmIHRoZXJlIGFyZSBhbHNvIHNvbWUgd2hvIGRvbid0 IC0tIEknZCBsaWtlIHRvIGdvIGFoZWFkIAp3aXRoIHRoaXMuICBBbmQvYnV0IEkgbmVlZCB0byBz ZWUgdGhhdCB0aGVyZSBpcyBzdWNoIGNvbnNlbnN1cyBvbiBwcm9jZWVkaW5nLgoKPiBXaXRoIHJl Z2FyZCB0byBjb21wYXJpc29uIHdpdGggb3RoZXIgcHJvdG9jb2xzLCBGVFAgaGFzIHR3byBrZXks Cj4gY2xvc2VseS1yZWxhdGVkLCBjaGFyYWN0ZXJpc3RpY3MgdGhhdCBkaWZmZXJlbnRpYXRlcyBp dCBmcm9tCj4gU0ZUUCwgVEZUUCwgZmlsZSB0cmFuc2ZlciBvdmVyIEhUVFAsIGFuZCBzbyBvbi4g ICBUaG9zZQo+IGNoYXJhY3RlcmlzdGljcyBhcmUgdGhlIHVzZSBvZiBzZXBhcmF0ZSBjb21tYW5k IGFuZCBkYXRhCj4gc3RyZWFtcy9jb25uZWN0aW9ucyBhbmQgdGhlIGFzeW5jaHJvbm91cyBjb21t YW5kIGRlc2lnbiB0aGF0Cj4gZmFjaWxpdGF0ZXMuICBUaGF0IGFycmFuZ2VtZW50IGhhcyBkaXN0 aW5jdCBhZHZhbnRhZ2VzIGluIHNvbWUKPiBzaXR1YXRpb25zLCBzdWNoIGFzIHdoZW4gZmlsZXMg YXJlIGxhcmdlIG9yIHRyYW5zZmVycyBzbG93LgoKSSd2ZSBuZXZlciB1bmRlcnN0b29kIHRoaXMg YXJndW1lbnQsIHJlYWxseS4KV2h5IGlzIGl0IHRoYXQgbXVjaCBtb3JlIHVzZWZ1bCB0byBoYXZl IHRoaXMgbW9kZWw6CgogIENoYW5uZWwgMTogbG9naW4sIGdldCBGMSwgZ2V0IEYyLCBnZXQgRjMK ICBDaGFubmVsIDI6IHRyYW5zZmVyIEYxCiAgQ2hhbm5lbCAzOiB0cmFuc2ZlciBGMgogIENoYW5u ZWwgNDogdHJhbnNmZXIgRjMKCi4uLnRoYW4gdGhpcyBtb2RlbCAow6AgbGEgSFRUUCk6CgogIENo YW5uZWwgMTogbG9naW4sIGdldCBGMSwgdHJhbnNmZXIgRjEKICBDaGFubmVsIDI6IGxvZ2luLCBn ZXQgRjIsIHRyYW5zZmVyIEYyCiAgQ2hhbm5lbCAzOiBsb2dpbiwgZ2V0IEYzLCB0cmFuc2ZlciBG MwoKPyAgVGhlIGZvcm1lciBhdm9pZHMgYXV0aGVudGljYXRpbmcgc2VwYXJhdGVseSBpbiBlYWNo IHBhcmFsbGVsIGNoYW5uZWwsIGJ1dCAKdGhhdCdzIHJlYWxseSBhIG1pbm9yIHBvaW50IChhbmQg dGhlcmUgYXJlIHdheXMgdG8gbWFrZSBpdCBsaWdodGVyLXdlaWdodCkuIApPdGhlcndpc2UsIEkg ZG9uJ3Qgc2VlIHdoeSBpdCBtYWtlcyBhbnkgcmVhbCBkaWZmZXJlbmNlLgoKQmFycnkKCl9fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCkFwcHMtRGlzY3VzcyBt YWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKQXBwcy1EaXNjdXNzQGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21h aWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vYXBwcy1kaXNjdXNzCg== From apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 3 06:12:57 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-apps-discuss-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB46928C113; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 06:12:57 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CE0F28C113 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 06:12:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 48Cbie+Xhlla for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 06:12:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppsw-1.csi.cam.ac.uk (ppsw-1.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.131]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB0B128C104 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 06:12:51 -0800 (PST) X-Cam-AntiVirus: no malware found X-Cam-SpamDetails: not scanned X-Cam-ScannerInfo: http://www.cam.ac.uk/cs/email/scanner/ Received: from hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.8.51]:60667) by ppsw-1.csi.cam.ac.uk (smtp.hermes.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.151]:25) with esmtpa (EXTERNAL:fanf2) id 1Kx0Ah-0000xL-5E (Exim 4.70) (return-path ); Mon, 03 Nov 2008 14:12:47 +0000 Received: from fanf2 (helo=localhost) by hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk (hermes.cam.ac.uk) with local-esmtp id 1Kx0Ah-0002eS-JO (Exim 4.67) (return-path ); Mon, 03 Nov 2008 14:12:47 +0000 Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 14:12:47 +0000 From: Tony Finch X-X-Sender: fanf2@hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk To: Barry Leiba Subject: Re: Followup on IETF72 discussion of FTP protocol extensions andupdates In-Reply-To: <8309C8E5E903A1336FD9A50B@dyn9002042072.watson.ibm.com> Message-ID: References: <20081031210011.GB102869@Sun.COM> <88DDA3A298D44C648419EE352C0651E7@rhinooffice.net> <20081103073559.GN106460@Sun.COM> <8309C8E5E903A1336FD9A50B@dyn9002042072.watson.ibm.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (LSU 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="1870869256-1172821148-1225721567=:30582" Cc: John C Klensin , Nicolas Williams , apps-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --1870869256-1172821148-1225721567=:30582 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE On Mon, 3 Nov 2008, Barry Leiba wrote: > > With regard to comparison with other protocols, FTP has two key, > > closely-related, characteristics that differentiates it from SFTP, > > TFTP, file transfer over HTTP, and so on. Those characteristics are > > the use of separate command and data streams/connections and the > > asynchronous command design that facilitates. That arrangement has > > distinct advantages in some situations, such as when files are large > > or transfers slow. > > I've never understood this argument, really. > Why is it that much more useful to have this model: > > Channel 1: login, get F1, get F2, get F3 > Channel 2: transfer F1 > Channel 3: transfer F2 > Channel 4: transfer F3 > > ...than this model (=C3=A0 la HTTP): > > Channel 1: login, get F1, transfer F1 > Channel 2: login, get F2, transfer F2 > Channel 3: login, get F3, transfer F3 > > ? The former avoids authenticating separately in each parallel channel, = but > that's really a minor point (and there are ways to make it lighter-weight= ). > Otherwise, I don't see why it makes any real difference. HTTP also has the advantage for small files that you can pipeline multiple requests down the same connection so you only need to crank open the TCP window once. Tony. --=20 f.anthony.n.finch http://dotat.at/ VIKING NORTH UTSIRE: SOUTHERLY OR SOUTHWESTERLY 4 OR 5, BUT 6 OR 7 IN NORTH= AT FIRST, VEERING NORTHERLY 4 LATER. MODERATE OR ROUGH. OCCASIONAL RAIN. MODER= ATE OR GOOD. --1870869256-1172821148-1225721567=:30582 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Apps-Discuss mailing list Apps-Discuss@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss --1870869256-1172821148-1225721567=:30582-- From apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 3 06:59:45 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-apps-discuss-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E55A928C1E3; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 06:59:45 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1788628C1E3 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 06:59:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.979 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.979 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.620, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qa5ommkyKzip for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 06:59:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from bs.jck.com (ns.jck.com [209.187.148.211]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E33AA28C19C for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 06:59:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=p3.JCK.COM) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Kx0u2-000HrE-5a; Mon, 03 Nov 2008 09:59:38 -0500 Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 09:59:37 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Barry Leiba Subject: Re: Followup on IETF72 discussion of FTP protocol extensions andupdates Message-ID: <74004BEBCFFF03C181C5F925@p3.int.jck.com> In-Reply-To: <8309C8E5E903A1336FD9A50B@dyn9002042072.watson.ibm.com> References: <20081031210011.GB102869@Sun.COM> <88DDA3A298D44C648419EE352C0651E7@rhinooffice.net> <20081103073559.GN106460@Sun.COM> <8309C8E5E903A1336FD9A50B@dyn9002042072.watson.ibm.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org, Nicolas Williams X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org CgotLU9uIE1vbmRheSwgMDMgTm92ZW1iZXIsIDIwMDggMDk6MDMgLTA0MDAgQmFycnkgTGVpYmEK PGxlaWJhQHdhdHNvbi5pYm0uY29tPiB3cm90ZToKCj4+IFdpdGggcmVnYXJkIHRvIGNvbXBhcmlz b24gd2l0aCBvdGhlciBwcm90b2NvbHMsIEZUUCBoYXMgdHdvCj4+IGtleSwgY2xvc2VseS1yZWxh dGVkLCBjaGFyYWN0ZXJpc3RpY3MgdGhhdCBkaWZmZXJlbnRpYXRlcyBpdAo+PiBmcm9tIFNGVFAs IFRGVFAsIGZpbGUgdHJhbnNmZXIgb3ZlciBIVFRQLCBhbmQgc28gb24uICAgVGhvc2UKPj4gY2hh 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c3ByZWFkIGFuZCBiZXR0ZXIgaW1wbGVtZW50YXRpb25zIGFuZCBob3BlIHRoYXQgYSBXRwpjYW4g cHVzaCBpbiB0aGF0IGRpcmVjdGlvbiwgYnV0IG1heWJlIHRoYXQgaXMgdG9vIG5haXZlIGFuZAp1 dG9waWFuLgoKICAgIGpvaG4KCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fCkFwcHMtRGlzY3VzcyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKQXBwcy1EaXNjdXNzQGlldGYub3Jn Cmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vYXBwcy1kaXNjdXNzCg== From apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 3 07:30:45 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-apps-discuss-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7809C3A6BB9; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 07:30:45 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C7D03A6BB9 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 07:30:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO 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d03av03.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id mA3FU412017606 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 08:30:04 -0700 Received: from poplar (poplar.watson.ibm.com [9.2.24.140]) by d03av03.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mA3FU36W017490; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 08:30:03 -0700 Received: from dyn9002042072.watson.ibm.com ([9.2.42.72]) by poplar.watson.ibm.com (IMF.2005.07.16.1050.haw) with SMTP ID IMFd1225726204.1049; Mon, 03 Nov 2008 10:30:04 -0400 Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 10:30:00 -0400 From: Barry Leiba To: John C Klensin Subject: Re: Followup on IETF72 discussion of FTP protocol extensions andupdates Message-ID: <1B4995AAD0961B3441FF1B70@dyn9002042072.watson.ibm.com> In-Reply-To: <74004BEBCFFF03C181C5F925@p3.int.jck.com> References: <20081031210011.GB102869@Sun.COM> <88DDA3A298D44C648419EE352C0651E7@rhinooffice.net> <20081103073559.GN106460@Sun.COM> <8309C8E5E903A1336FD9A50B@dyn9002042072.watson.ibm.com> <74004BEBCFFF03C181C5F925@p3.int.jck.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org, Nicolas Williams X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Pj4gV2h5IGlzIGl0IHRoYXQgbXVjaCBtb3JlIHVzZWZ1bCB0byBoYXZlIHRoaXMgbW9kZWw6Cj4+ Cj4+ICAgQ2hhbm5lbCAxOiBsb2dpbiwgZ2V0IEYxLCBnZXQgRjIsIGdldCBGMwo+PiAgIENoYW5u ZWwgMjogdHJhbnNmZXIgRjEKPj4gICBDaGFubmVsIDM6IHRyYW5zZmVyIEYyCj4+ICAgQ2hhbm5l bCA0OiB0cmFuc2ZlciBGMwo+Pgo+PiAuLi50aGFuIHRoaXMgbW9kZWwgKMOgIGxhIEhUVFApOgo+ Pgo+PiAgIENoYW5uZWwgMTogbG9naW4sIGdldCBGMSwgdHJhbnNmZXIgRjEKPj4gICBDaGFubmVs IDI6IGxvZ2luLCBnZXQgRjIsIHRyYW5zZmVyIEYyCj4+ICAgQ2hhbm5lbCAzOiBsb2dpbiwgZ2V0 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X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpBcHBzLURpc2N1 c3MgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0CkFwcHMtRGlzY3Vzc0BpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9y Zy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2FwcHMtZGlzY3Vzcwo= From apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 3 08:36:30 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-apps-discuss-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE6813A6A0A; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 08:36:30 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BA4C28C0DB for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 08:36:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.046 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.046 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HWHQMnMguiAa for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 08:36:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-ea-mail-3.sun.com (sca-ea-mail-3.Sun.COM [192.18.43.21]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10B6128C0FF for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 08:36:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm-central-02.central.sun.com ([129.147.62.5]) by sca-ea-mail-3.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id mA3GaIJw016163 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 16:36:18 GMT Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (binky.Central.Sun.COM [129.153.128.104]) by dm-central-02.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL, v2.2) with ESMTP id mA3GaHJi018412 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 09:36:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from binky.central.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id mA3GS5qi107472; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 10:28:07 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.central.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id mA3GRt5I107471; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 10:27:55 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: binky.central.sun.com: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 10:27:55 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams To: John C Klensin Subject: Re: Followup on IETF72 discussion of FTP protocol extensions andupdates Message-ID: <20081103162754.GU106460@Sun.COM> References: <20081031210011.GB102869@Sun.COM> <88DDA3A298D44C648419EE352C0651E7@rhinooffice.net> <20081103073559.GN106460@Sun.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org On Mon, Nov 03, 2008 at 08:31:59AM -0500, John C Klensin wrote: > Let me suggest a different approach to thinking about this. > > [...] So far so good. > With regard to comparison with other protocols, FTP has two key, > closely-related, characteristics that differentiates it from > SFTP, TFTP, file transfer over HTTP, and so on. Those > characteristics are the use of separate command and data > streams/connections and the asynchronous command design that > facilitates. That arrangement has distinct advantages in some > situations, such as when files are large or transfers slow. It > is pathological for deep-NAT environments, but that is at least > one of the reasons we have other protocols for file transfer. > But, e.g., SFTP seems to be to be a possible good argument > against an extension that makes FTP single-stream, but not > against other extensions to FTP. SFTP is most certainly asynchronous. You may want to revise your position. (Commands and data may be interleaved, and multiple transfers may proceed concurrently.) Nico -- _______________________________________________ Apps-Discuss mailing list Apps-Discuss@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss From apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 3 09:17:19 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-apps-discuss-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EECF3A6BBC; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 09:17:19 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF3863A6BDD for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 09:17:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.289 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.289 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.310, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31tLf3sfciJJ for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 09:17:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from bs.jck.com (ns.jck.com [209.187.148.211]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C61CE3A6BEA for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 09:16:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=p3.JCK.COM) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Kx32l-000NyJ-1n; Mon, 03 Nov 2008 12:16:47 -0500 Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 12:16:46 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: Followup on IETF72 discussion of FTP protocol extensions andupdates Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20081103162754.GU106460@Sun.COM> References: <20081031210011.GB102869@Sun.COM> <88DDA3A298D44C648419EE352C0651E7@rhinooffice.net> <20081103073559.GN106460@Sun.COM> <20081103162754.GU106460@Sun.COM> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org --On Monday, 03 November, 2008 10:27 -0600 Nicolas Williams wrote: > SFTP is most certainly asynchronous. You may want to revise > your position. (Commands and data may be interleaved, and > multiple transfers may proceed concurrently.) Nico, I have probably just been using weak implementations of SFTP, but have yet to see one that permits me to get the status or, or cancel, a transfer that is in progress without killing off the connection, that are able to initiate multiple transfers concurrently, etc. I confess not having studied the protocol itself but, if SFTP has those facilities, we may be dealing with insufficient implementations of both SFTP and FTP rather than a need for at least some extensions to either (other extensions, and the probable need for extension registries, may be another matter). john p.s. if SFTP is also in need of an extension registry, I'd be happy to sign you up as co-author, send you the XML for modifications, and try to push both extension registries through at the same time and with the same document. No need to duplicate _that_ particular part of that work. _______________________________________________ Apps-Discuss mailing list Apps-Discuss@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss From apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 3 09:40:18 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-apps-discuss-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8E283A6BE7; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 09:40:18 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7FA73A6A8B for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 09:40:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.046 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.046 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PE7FZONfmr+f for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 09:40:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com (sca-ea-mail-1.Sun.COM [192.18.43.24]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B94C33A6839 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 09:40:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm-central-02.central.sun.com ([129.147.62.5]) by sca-ea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id mA3HeCqt010392 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 17:40:12 GMT Received: from binky.Central.Sun.COM (binky.Central.Sun.COM [129.153.128.104]) by dm-central-02.central.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/ENSMAIL, v2.2) with ESMTP id mA3HeCJw039582 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 10:40:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from binky.central.sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by binky.Central.Sun.COM (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3) with ESMTP id mA3HWAxb107550; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 11:32:10 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nw141292@localhost) by binky.central.sun.com (8.14.3+Sun/8.14.3/Submit) id mA3HWACl107549; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 11:32:10 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: binky.central.sun.com: nw141292 set sender to Nicolas.Williams@sun.com using -f Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 11:32:10 -0600 From: Nicolas Williams To: John C Klensin Subject: Re: Followup on IETF72 discussion of FTP protocol extensions andupdates Message-ID: <20081103173210.GB106460@Sun.COM> References: <20081031210011.GB102869@Sun.COM> <88DDA3A298D44C648419EE352C0651E7@rhinooffice.net> <20081103073559.GN106460@Sun.COM> <20081103162754.GU106460@Sun.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.7i Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org On Mon, Nov 03, 2008 at 12:16:46PM -0500, John C Klensin wrote: > > SFTP is most certainly asynchronous. You may want to revise > > your position. (Commands and data may be interleaved, and > > multiple transfers may proceed concurrently.) > > I have probably just been using weak implementations of SFTP, > but have yet to see one that permits me to get the status or, or > cancel, a transfer that is in progress without killing off the > connection, that are able to initiate multiple transfers > concurrently, etc. I confess not having studied the protocol > itself but, if SFTP has those facilities, we may be dealing with > insufficient implementations of both SFTP and FTP rather than a > need for at least some extensions to either (other extensions, > and the probable need for extension registries, may be another > matter). The SFTP protocol is more like a remote filesystem protocol than a file transfer protocol. This is where SFTP used to fall flat, incidentally, since remote filesystem protocols typically don't include support for end-of-line conversion, for example. Newer versions of SFTP have added support for such conversions, but most implementations don't have it. You open a file, read from/write to it, close it. If you wish to interrupt a file transfer then you just stop initiating I/O to that file. Multiple outstanding READs and WRITEs are allowed concurrently, over a single channel, to the same file and to many files. Most SFTP clients are rather simplistic however, and simply transfer a single file at a time, and keep a small number of concurrent I/Os in flight (older clients kept a single I/O in flight). I'd rather see implementors improve SFTP performance. (And SSHv2 performance, by making SSHv2 channel window sizes adjust better.) > john > > p.s. if SFTP is also in need of an extension registry, I'd be > happy to sign you up as co-author, send you the XML for > modifications, and try to push both extension registries through > at the same time and with the same document. No need to > duplicate _that_ particular part of that work. SFTP is not yet published as an RFC... And no, there's no chance that I'll work on any SFTP-related drafts. I understand perfectly well that if no one stands up to offer to do that work and plenty of others are interested in the proposed FTP work, then we may well end up with a WG chartered to work on FTP. I do believe there are people who are interested in working on SFTP, and SFTP does need a home (SECSH WG closed a while back), so I suppose we could even see a WG chartered to work on both, SFTP and FTP. Nico -- _______________________________________________ Apps-Discuss mailing list Apps-Discuss@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss From apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 3 10:39:24 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-apps-discuss-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CADE33A69E2; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 10:39:24 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2B743A69E2 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 10:39:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.392 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.392 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.207, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a58fz1srS2OX for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 10:39:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from bs.jck.com (ns.jck.com [209.187.148.211]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F338F3A688A for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 10:39:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=p3.JCK.COM) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Kx4Ke-0001A7-BI; Mon, 03 Nov 2008 13:39:20 -0500 Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 13:39:19 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Nicolas Williams Subject: Re: Followup on IETF72 discussion of FTP protocol extensions andupdates Message-ID: <0AE889A09CA8967487C88D85@p3.int.jck.com> In-Reply-To: <20081103173210.GB106460@Sun.COM> References: <20081031210011.GB102869@Sun.COM> <88DDA3A298D44C648419EE352C0651E7@rhinooffice.net> <20081103073559.GN106460@Sun.COM> <20081103162754.GU106460@Sun.COM> <20081103173210.GB106460@Sun.COM> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Cc: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org --On Monday, 03 November, 2008 11:32 -0600 Nicolas Williams wrote: > I do believe > there are people who are interested in working on SFTP, and > SFTP does need a home (SECSH WG closed a while back), so I > suppose we could even see a WG chartered to work on both, SFTP > and FTP. It is up to the ADs, but my personal belief is that chartering a WG to work on two somewhat-similar protocols in parallel, especially when one is at a very different level of maturity than the other (the base FTP spec has been unchanged since the 1970s; there is no published standards-track protocol for SFTP) would be a mistake. Either two groups proceeding in parallel or one that does FTP and then moves on to SFTP would be fine with me. Of course, if an FTP WG were chartered, asking it to look at an individual submission for a standards-track SFTP spec would also be an option available to the ADs. But, as you suggest, if there aren't people who are willing to stand up and volunteer to do serious work on SFTP --presumably starting with getting an initial standards-track specification together-- then, by default, there isn't going to be a WG for it. john _______________________________________________ Apps-Discuss mailing list Apps-Discuss@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss From apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 3 14:03:45 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-apps-discuss-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14BA13A6A13; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 14:03:45 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E0FD3A690F for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 14:03:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YQmai1oBQMxa for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 14:03:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from gateout01.mbox.net (gateout01.mbox.net [165.212.64.21]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9991328C304 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 14:03:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from gateout01.mbox.net (gateout01-lo [127.0.0.1]) by gateout01.mbox.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60C43CC7C6 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 22:03:30 +0000 (GMT) Received: from GW2.EXCHPROD.USA.NET [165.212.116.254] by gateout01.mbox.net via smtad (C8.MAIN.3.45U) with ESMTP id XID513mkcwDE1121Xo1; Mon, 03 Nov 2008 22:03:30 -0000 X-USANET-Source: 165.212.116.254 IN ldusseault@commerce.net GW2.EXCHPROD.USA.NET X-USANET-MsgId: XID513mkcwDE1121Xo1 Received: from [10.1.1.130] ([157.22.41.236]) by GW2.EXCHPROD.USA.NET over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 3 Nov 2008 15:03:28 -0700 Message-Id: <33109100-3367-4DB7-8AC0-419786B5915B@commerce.net> From: Lisa Dusseault To: Apps Discuss Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Mac number and IP address as URIs Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 14:03:27 -0800 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.929.2) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Nov 2008 22:03:29.0227 (UTC) FILETIME=[00DE71B0:01C93E00] X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed"; DelSp="yes" Sender: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Has anybody else used or seen URIs that serve to carry mac addresses and IP addresses? This draft defines new formats; http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-winterbottom-geopriv-held-identity-extensions-07.txt Lisa _______________________________________________ Apps-Discuss mailing list Apps-Discuss@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss From apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 3 14:45:15 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-apps-discuss-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B4A628C347; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 14:45:15 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A38AA28C1DC for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 14:45:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.444 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.444 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.155, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uOHX8bHUv87b for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 14:45:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from bs.jck.com (ns.jck.com [209.187.148.211]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B836E28C347 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 14:45:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=p3.JCK.COM) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Kx8AX-000BdP-ME; Mon, 03 Nov 2008 17:45:09 -0500 Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 17:45:08 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Lisa Dusseault , Apps Discuss Subject: Re: Mac number and IP address as URIs Message-ID: <7D113668C5D8F21A86E51AA1@p3.int.jck.com> In-Reply-To: <33109100-3367-4DB7-8AC0-419786B5915B@commerce.net> References: <33109100-3367-4DB7-8AC0-419786B5915B@commerce.net> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org --On Monday, 03 November, 2008 14:03 -0800 Lisa Dusseault wrote: > > Has anybody else used or seen URIs that serve to carry mac > addresses and IP addresses? This draft defines new formats; > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-winterbottom-geopriv > -held-identity-extensions-07.txt Well, there is clearly http://#.#.#.#:PPPP/, but you probably didn't have that in mind. I've just glanced through the document, but this --especially doing anything that brings a physical layer device address (like a MAC address) out to the application/user level -- strikes me as a singularly bad idea. If this is really for a physical or link-level device location and identification protocol --a sort of super-ARP-- overloading that concept onto URIs strikes me as a separate Bad Idea (I hope this doesn't mean that someone should have been following Geopriv more closely from an architectural standpoint). Please note that this isn't just IP and MAC addresses, but a whole collection of device identifiers, most of them physical layer or close to it. See Section 6.3. In the words of the late Jon Postel, YMBK. john _______________________________________________ Apps-Discuss mailing list Apps-Discuss@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss From apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 3 22:47:58 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-apps-discuss-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3399B3A67F1; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 22:47:58 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89CB23A6810 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 22:47:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.949 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.949 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yWru2HBotlKF for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 22:47:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from srv01.frobbit.se (srv01.frobbit.se [85.30.129.39]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92ADB3A67A1 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 22:47:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by srv01.frobbit.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9B522ABB462; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 07:47:52 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at frobbit.se Received: from srv01.frobbit.se ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (srv01.frobbit.se [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SeUGIdBIzU0M; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 07:47:52 +0100 (CET) Received: from 41-179-10-212.cairo.icannmeeting.org (unknown [41.179.10.212]) by srv01.frobbit.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC6632ABB457; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 07:47:51 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <16D1AFDB-F4E5-43F5-9811-705FF1059C6D@frobbit.se> From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= To: John C Klensin In-Reply-To: <7D113668C5D8F21A86E51AA1@p3.int.jck.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: Mac number and IP address as URIs Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 08:47:52 +0200 References: <33109100-3367-4DB7-8AC0-419786B5915B@commerce.net> <7D113668C5D8F21A86E51AA1@p3.int.jck.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.929.2) Cc: Apps Discuss , Lisa Dusseault X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed"; DelSp="yes" Sender: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org On 4 nov 2008, at 00.45, John C Klensin wrote: > --On Monday, 03 November, 2008 14:03 -0800 Lisa Dusseault > wrote: > >> >> Has anybody else used or seen URIs that serve to carry mac >> addresses and IP addresses? This draft defines new formats; >> >> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-winterbottom-geopriv >> -held-identity-extensions-07.txt > > Well, there is clearly http://#.#.#.#:PPPP/, but you probably > didn't have that in mind. > > I've just glanced through the document, but this --especially > doing anything that brings a physical layer device address (like > a MAC address) out to the application/user level -- strikes me > as a singularly bad idea. If this is really for a physical or > link-level device location and identification protocol --a sort > of super-ARP-- overloading that concept onto URIs strikes me as > a separate Bad Idea (I hope this doesn't mean that someone > should have been following Geopriv more closely from an > architectural standpoint). > > Please note that this isn't just IP and MAC addresses, but a > whole collection of device identifiers, most of them physical > layer or close to it. See Section 6.3. > > In the words of the late Jon Postel, YMBK. Let me suggest you ask for a split of this document in two. One that define the URI types, and the one that talk about the application they try to build using them. That way you will get better review on the URI-review mailing list for the URI definitions. Then for the application they build, I have the same concerns as John. Just talking about Mac-address and IP-address as "identity" make me nervous. The amount of privacy concerns that have to go into the security considerations sections will be "not small". Patrik _______________________________________________ Apps-Discuss mailing list Apps-Discuss@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss From apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 3 23:01:20 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-apps-discuss-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DB9B3A67E3; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 23:01:20 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16F663A67E3 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 23:01:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.312 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.312 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-4.428, BAYES_40=-0.185, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RoJ7mJgUTJkQ for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 23:01:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id E73CF3A67A1 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 23:01:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 04 Nov 2008 07:01:13 -0000 Received: from p508FBBF2.dip.t-dialin.net (EHLO [192.168.178.22]) [80.143.187.242] by mail.gmx.net (mp028) with SMTP; 04 Nov 2008 08:01:13 +0100 X-Authenticated: #1915285 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1+9JM9vLPu9SLfMx15wVKunZ2HfCT4pVVWMwCiGd2 4+8RHaghlnp4En Message-ID: <490FF335.9070005@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 08:01:09 +0100 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; de; rv:1.8.0.4) Gecko/20060516 Thunderbird/1.5.0.4 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= Subject: Re: Mac number and IP address as URIs References: <33109100-3367-4DB7-8AC0-419786B5915B@commerce.net> <7D113668C5D8F21A86E51AA1@p3.int.jck.com> <16D1AFDB-F4E5-43F5-9811-705FF1059C6D@frobbit.se> In-Reply-To: <16D1AFDB-F4E5-43F5-9811-705FF1059C6D@frobbit.se> X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-FuHaFi: 0.75 Cc: Apps Discuss , Lisa Dusseault X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" Sender: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Patrik F=E4ltstr=F6m wrote: > Let me suggest you ask for a split of this document in two. One that = > define the URI types, and the one that talk about the application they = > try to build using them. That way you will get better review on the = > URI-review mailing list for the URI definitions. +1 > ... Furthermore, independently of the points raised before, my first = reaction was: wouldn't URN schemes suffice here? BR, Julian _______________________________________________ Apps-Discuss mailing list Apps-Discuss@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss From apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 4 05:49:08 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-apps-discuss-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 547743A69B7; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 05:49:08 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7A9D3A6985 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 05:49:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.11 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.11 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-1.11] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4cAGY6-22myt for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 05:49:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from m1.imap-partners.net (m1.imap-partners.net [64.13.152.131]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40C893A683B for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 05:49:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from lust.indecency.org (adsl-155-115-114.tys.bellsouth.net [72.155.115.114]) by m1.imap-partners.net (MOS 3.10.3-GA) with ESMTP id BDW63166 (AUTH admin@network-heretics.com) for discuss@ietf.org; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 05:49:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <491052CC.6060102@network-heretics.com> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2008 08:49:00 -0500 From: Keith Moore User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (Macintosh/20080914) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julian Reschke Subject: Re: Mac number and IP address as URIs References: <33109100-3367-4DB7-8AC0-419786B5915B@commerce.net> <7D113668C5D8F21A86E51AA1@p3.int.jck.com> <16D1AFDB-F4E5-43F5-9811-705FF1059C6D@frobbit.se> <490FF335.9070005@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <490FF335.9070005@gmx.de> Cc: Apps Discuss , Lisa Dusseault X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Julian Reschke wrote: > Furthermore, independently of the points raised before, my first > reaction was: wouldn't URN schemes suffice here? "suffice" is an odd word to use here, because the requirements for URN schemes are more stringent than those for other URIs. and no, I don't think URNs are appropriate for this. But I question their premise that location information can be reliably derived from source IP address, more than I question the use of these various identifiers in URIs. My belief is that source IP address is quickly going to become much less useful as a location identifier than it is now. Keith _______________________________________________ Apps-Discuss mailing list Apps-Discuss@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss From apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 4 12:19:20 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-apps-discuss-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D734028C27B; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 12:19:20 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9F5E28C27B for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 12:19:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PpQazCf1wAYS for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 12:19:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from gateout01.mbox.net (gateout01.mbox.net [165.212.64.21]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99ACB28C23A for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 12:19:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from gateout01.mbox.net (gateout01-lo [127.0.0.1]) by gateout01.mbox.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA64ACCC4A; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 20:19:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from GW1.EXCHPROD.USA.NET [165.212.116.254] by gateout01.mbox.net via smtad (C8.MAIN.3.45U) with ESMTP id XID523mkDuTH3057Xo1; Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:19:06 -0000 X-USANET-Source: 165.212.116.254 IN ldusseault@commerce.net GW1.EXCHPROD.USA.NET X-USANET-MsgId: XID523mkDuTH3057Xo1 Received: from [192.168.1.102] ([74.95.2.169]) by GW1.EXCHPROD.USA.NET over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 4 Nov 2008 13:19:05 -0700 Message-Id: <017A700E-BB67-44AA-8FE7-081B0BABC9CB@commerce.net> From: Lisa Dusseault To: Apps Discuss , Lisa Dusseault's Chairs Subject: Lisa's Apps Area Activity Report for October Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 12:19:03 -0800 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.929.2) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Nov 2008 20:19:05.0949 (UTC) FILETIME=[9613D0D0:01C93EBA] X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1458604983==" Sender: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org --===============1458604983== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-2-562124505 --Apple-Mail-2-562124505 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit News, updates BOFs in Minneapolis ALTO: note ALTO is up for approval as a WG on Thursday OAUTH: mailing list and spec available at http://oauth.net/ Document Status and Progress Active Documents: my action - draft-montemurro-gsma-imei-urn (Info): need to review new version Stalled, in review, waiting on other: - draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (PS): In IETF Last Call. - draft-ietf-calsify-rfc2445bis (PS): In IETF Last Call. - draft-ietf-calsify-rfc2446bis (PS): Waiting for issues from another review to be addressed. I requested IETF Last Call prematurely. - draft-kucherawy-sender-auth-header (Proposed Standard, aka PS): In IETF Last Call. - draft-ietf-sieve-notify-mailto (PS): Scheduled for IESG Evaluation Dec 4. - draft-ietf-lemonade-msgevent (PS): Seeing if DISCUSS issues have been cleared - draft-ietf-sieve-refuse-reject (PS): Waiting on author for revised ID after IESG Evaluation. - draft-snell-atompub-bidi (PS): A couple changes needed after IESG Evaluation. - draft-ietf-usefor-usepro (PS): Finished IETF Last Call. Authors and chairs need to decide whether/what changes to make. - draft-sanchez-webdav-current-principal (PS): Finished last Call. Now I'm waiting to hear back from authors on next steps. - draft-wilde-sms-uri (PS): IESG Evaluation found a number of issues. Author needs to revise or respond. Finished Processing -- new in RFC Ed queue and new RFCs - RFC 5321, DRAFT Standard "Simple Mail Transfer Protocol" - RFC 5322, DRAFT Standard "Internet Message Format" WG Status CALSIFY: Plugging away on issues. HTTPBIS: Plugging away on issues. IDNABIS: Finished up a bunch of consensus calls, resulting in a bunch of changes now reflected in docs. SIEVE: Finishing up some docs. USEFOR: Finishing up last doc after IETF Last Call. --Apple-Mail-2-562124505 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
News, updates

BOFs in = Minneapolis
ALTO: note ALTO is up  for approval as a WG on = Thursday
OAUTH: mailing list and spec available at <http://oauth.net/>http://oauth.net/

Document = Status and Progress

Active Documents: my = action
 - draft-montemurro-gsma-imei-urn (Info): need to = review new version

Stalled, in review, waiting on other:
- = draft-irtf-asrg-dnsbl (PS): In IETF Last Call.
- = draft-ietf-calsify-rfc2445bis (PS):  In IETF Last Call.
- = draft-ietf-calsify-rfc2446bis (PS): Waiting for issues from another = review to be addressed.  I requested IETF Last Call = prematurely.
- draft-kucherawy-sender-auth-header (Proposed Standard, = aka PS): In IETF Last Call.
- draft-ietf-sieve-notify-mailto = (PS):  Scheduled for IESG Evaluation Dec 4.
- = draft-ietf-lemonade-msgevent (PS): Seeing if DISCUSS issues have been = cleared
- draft-ietf-sieve-refuse-reject (PS):  Waiting on = author for revised ID after IESG Evaluation.
- = draft-snell-atompub-bidi (PS): A couple changes needed after IESG = Evaluation.
- draft-ietf-usefor-usepro (PS): Finished IETF Last Call. =  Authors and chairs need to decide whether/what changes to = make.
- draft-sanchez-webdav-current-principal (PS): Finished last = Call. Now I'm waiting to hear back from authors on next steps.
- = draft-wilde-sms-uri (PS): IESG Evaluation found a number of issues. = Author needs to revise or respond.

Finished Processing -- new in = RFC Ed queue and new RFCs
 - RFC 5321, DRAFT = Standard
    "Simple = Mail Transfer Protocol"
 - RFC 5322, DRAFT = Standard
"Internet Message Format"

WG = Status
CALSIFY: Plugging away on issues.
HTTPBIS: =   Plugging away on issues.
IDNABIS:  Finished up a = bunch of consensus calls, resulting in a bunch of changes now reflected = in docs.
SIEVE: Finishing up some docs. 
USEFOR: =  Finishing up last doc after IETF Last = Call.

= --Apple-Mail-2-562124505-- --===============1458604983== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Apps-Discuss mailing list Apps-Discuss@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss --===============1458604983==-- From apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 4 13:30:38 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-apps-discuss-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1986528C2A6; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 13:30:38 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB38F28C296 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 13:30:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.442 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.442 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.157, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8w-VXPJHLWsS for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 13:30:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACDC828C29A for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 13:30:31 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,545,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="100203879" Received: from sj-dkim-2.cisco.com ([171.71.179.186]) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 04 Nov 2008 21:30:18 +0000 Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (sj-core-1.cisco.com [171.71.177.237]) by sj-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mA4LUH6A001241; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 13:30:17 -0800 Received: from [192.168.4.177] (rcdn-fluffy-8711.cisco.com [10.99.9.18]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mA4LUH1m018520; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 21:30:17 GMT From: Cullen Jennings To: Lisa Dusseault In-Reply-To: <33109100-3367-4DB7-8AC0-419786B5915B@commerce.net> Impp: xmpp:cullenfluffyjennings@jabber.org Subject: Re: Mac number and IP address as URIs References: <33109100-3367-4DB7-8AC0-419786B5915B@commerce.net> Message-Id: <700DDC6F-9569-4B62-8382-F33DFC3F2500@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 14:30:11 -0700 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.929.2) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=698; t=1225834217; x=1226698217; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim2002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=fluffy@cisco.com; z=From:=20Cullen=20Jennings=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20Mac=20number=20and=20IP=20address=20as= 20URIs |Sender:=20; bh=xJgHIwBctvm/p01lYUdSIOXl9akbNezW3ebl2OixTnk=; b=eTTasMCJzbz4tZZOJqaJiT0SJE6XTkNH4R5p7xNgrKfnTjxfw9fqGTY7GS dA2EjkQ0PR1jhnTBvdsv1yBnQBTNXcVJF9uL9CxX5x2GUalr3Z8dbXAEcLH1 P7bIgmX7H5; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-2; header.From=fluffy@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim2002 verified; ); Cc: Apps Discuss X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed"; DelSp="yes" Sender: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org FWIW ... UUIDs that are generated using MAC addresses are used for some things. And pretty much every residential NAT made today has a nice web page that allows my mom to clone her MAC even if she has no clue what that means. On Nov 3, 2008, at 3:03 PM, Lisa Dusseault wrote: > > Has anybody else used or seen URIs that serve to carry mac addresses > and IP addresses? This draft defines new formats; > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-winterbottom-geopriv-held-identity-extensions-07.txt > > Lisa > _______________________________________________ > Apps-Discuss mailing list > Apps-Discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss _______________________________________________ Apps-Discuss mailing list Apps-Discuss@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss From apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 19 12:37:08 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-apps-discuss-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D5A83A6A84; Wed, 19 Nov 2008 12:37:08 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39CC33A6AC1; Wed, 19 Nov 2008 12:37:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fUqFxvKIgzwj; Wed, 19 Nov 2008 12:37:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from gateout02.mbox.net (gateout02.mbox.net [165.212.64.22]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8C733A6A84; Wed, 19 Nov 2008 12:37:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from gateout02 (gwo2-lo [127.0.0.1]) by gateout02.mbox.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B8D44BD8A6; Wed, 19 Nov 2008 20:36:59 +0000 (GMT) Received: from GW2.EXCHPROD.USA.NET [165.212.116.254] by gateout02 via smtad (C8.MAIN.3.45U) with ESMTP id XID736mksuK86186Xo2; Wed, 19 Nov 2008 20:36:59 -0000 X-USANET-Source: 165.212.116.254 IN ldusseault@commerce.net GW2.EXCHPROD.USA.NET X-USANET-MsgId: XID736mksuK86186Xo2 Received: from [130.129.31.199] ([130.129.31.199]) by GW2.EXCHPROD.USA.NET over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 19 Nov 2008 13:36:59 -0700 Message-Id: From: Lisa Dusseault To: Apps Discuss , APPS-REVIEW@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: HTTP cross-domain scripting access control W3C document Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 14:36:56 -0600 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.929.2) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Nov 2008 20:36:59.0324 (UTC) FILETIME=[920E17C0:01C94A86] X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed"; DelSp="yes" Sender: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org FYI: http://www.w3.org/TR/access-control/ "This document defines a mechanism to enable client-side cross-site requests. Specifications that want to enable cross-site requests in an API they define can use the algorithms defined by this specification. If such an API is used on http://example.org resources, a resource on http://hello-world.example can opt in using the mechanism described by this specification (e.g., specifying Access-Control-Allow-Origin: http://example.org as response header), which would allow that resource to be fetched cross- site from http://example.org." _______________________________________________ Apps-Discuss mailing list Apps-Discuss@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss From apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 20 14:38:15 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-apps-discuss-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13FC03A69D8; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:38:15 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24E5A3A6A01 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:38:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NuVetVA-cqNU for ; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:38:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from hostbox.veidit.net (hostbox.veidit.net [213.80.98.164]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF75F3A677D for ; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:38:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by hostbox.veidit.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A510F441B3 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 23:38:10 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at Received: from hostbox.veidit.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (hostbox.veidit.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kLOPJIwQ+Xw3 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 23:38:08 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [130.129.79.24]) by hostbox.veidit.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7038B441B2 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 23:38:07 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4925E6C3.6020504@veidit.net> Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 16:37:55 -0600 From: John Angelmo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.18) Gecko/20081031 SeaMonkey/1.1.13 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: apps-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Thoughts on start of a draft X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Hello I have written a what looks like a good start for a draft and I am looking for input. The thought is that it's difficult for cellphones, media players and from time to time even via a normal browser on a computer hard to find and play streaming media. My thought is to index streams per site via xml. One example is Swedish site SR: http://www.sr.se 45 difrent streams each with two diffrent codecs and diffrent bandwidth choises, not easy to find and you might not know what codec you have installed or what quality/bandwith you can use. Either your search engine can index and present the diffrent channels or you can just surf with your media player to a specific site. I have a few problems that I need some help on: * Should icons be used? and if at what size? Displays are anything from cellphones to 1080p tv's (and higher resolution possible) * defining codecs as a text that the mediaplayer/browser should interpet? * bandwidth, should it be flexible and use both kbit and mbit? * since bandwidth can be defined, should resolution also be defined? I am very new to this and I hope that I don't step on anyones toes. The schema and example is written in Relax NG compact http://shinji.veidit.net/rfc/draft-angelmo-avd-00.xml http://shinji.veidit.net/rfc/draft-angelmo-avd-00.html http://shinji.veidit.net/rfc/draft-angelmo-avd-00.txt During the coming month I hope to improve the schema and listen to input. Kind Regards John Angelmo _______________________________________________ Apps-Discuss mailing list Apps-Discuss@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss From apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 21 15:38:08 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-apps-discuss-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C72013A682A; Fri, 21 Nov 2008 15:38:08 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEFF43A682A for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2008 15:38:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.422 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.422 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.177, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jFhmYypTW1sP for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2008 15:38:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxout1.cac.washington.edu (mxout1.cac.washington.edu [140.142.32.134]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE49D3A6808 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2008 15:38:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.washington.edu (smtp.washington.edu [140.142.33.7] (may be forged)) by mxout1.cac.washington.edu (8.13.7+UW06.06/8.13.7+UW07.09) with ESMTP id mALNc49w001921 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2008 15:38:04 -0800 X-Auth-Received: from D-140-142-21-48.dhcp4.washington.edu (D-140-142-21-48.dhcp4.washington.edu [140.142.21.48]) (authenticated authid=rlmorgan) by smtp.washington.edu (8.13.7+UW06.06/8.13.7+UW07.09) with ESMTP id mALNc4wC027775 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2008 15:38:04 -0800 Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 15:38:03 -0800 (PST) From: "RL 'Bob' Morgan" X-X-Sender: rlmorgan@perf.cac.washington.edu To: IETF Apps Subject: [Metadata Discovery Coordination Group] Message-ID: User-Agent: Alpine 1.10 (LFD 962 2008-03-14) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 5.5.0.356843, Antispam-Engine: 2.6.1.350677, Antispam-Data: 2008.11.21.232211 X-Uwash-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIII, Probability=8%, Report='BODY_SIZE_3000_3999 0, BODY_SIZE_5000_LESS 0, ECARD_KNOWN_DOMAINS 0, FROM_EDU_TLD 0, __CP_URI_IN_BODY 0, __CT 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __MIME_TEXT_ONLY 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __SANE_MSGID 0, __USER_AGENT 0' X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org FYI, somewhat related to the OAuth BoF earlier this week. - RL "Bob" ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 16:14:24 -0700 From: Eran Hammer-Lahav Reply-To: xrds-simple@googlegroups.com To: "oauth@googlegroups.com" , "xrds-simple@googlegroups.com" , OASIS XRI TC Cc: "metadata-discovery@googlegroups.com" Subject: [xrds-simple] Metadata Discovery Coordination Group, an Introduction Discussions about URI metadata discovery have been going on in many places for the past couple of years. This has been reaching its boiling point with the recent discussions between the W3C TAG, XRI TC, POWDER WG, the OpenID / Yadis, OAuth, Portable Contacts, XRDS-Simple, and OpenSocial communities, and various IETF I-Ds published on related topics. Web Discovery is likely to consist of two parts, the *retrieval* and *format* of a metadata document linked to a resource identified by a URI. There are multiple proposals for the metadata document format, with XRDS and POWDER as two notable examples. Discussions regarding metadata format should and will remain where they are currently being held. However, there is great recognizable value in a single (simple) mechanism for *retrieval* of metadata for resources identified with a URI. From the most basic use case of identifying which API is supported by a given endpoint, to a more complex trusted identity resolution, the requirements seems to be significantly overlapping. For many of these communities, time is running out and most are getting ready to put the final touches and ship specifications that already have running code. We have a rare (but narrow) opportunity to quickly go through the current proposals and at least set the tone for current and future discovery solutions. I am not ignoring the political complications of trying to reach consensus among so many entities and communities but I truly believe from the many hours of conversations I had the past 2 months that we are mostly all on the same page. All I think we now need is a room, and hence this new list: metadata-discovery@googlegroups.com. This is not a working group, nor does this group have any deliverables or will produce specifications. It is designed as a coordination venue for the various efforts going on to discuss their proposals and progress. It is also for soliciting feedback and confirming assumptions about discovery proposals. Given the complexities behind IPR policies and the significant differences, this list does not have an IPR policy. This means that discussions held here are not covered, and if produce anything other than normative references to existing standards (which is clearly the intention), will need to be resolved if adopted elsewhere. Web discovery has been my top priority for the past year and I am excited to finally reach the point where a critical mass is formed to finally address it. Please join the discussion at http://groups.google.com/group/metadata-discovery. EHL _______________________________________________ Apps-Discuss mailing list Apps-Discuss@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss From apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Sat Nov 22 10:57:14 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-apps-discuss-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3A7F3A6A9E; Sat, 22 Nov 2008 10:57:14 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BEAF3A68F1; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 18:31:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_DEF_WHITELIST=-15] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UreiER4dOjoY; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 18:31:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mrout1.yahoo.com (mrout1.yahoo.com [216.145.54.171]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC3ED3A68B4; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 18:31:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from naturevery-lm.corp.yahoo.com (naturevery-lm.corp.yahoo.com [10.72.114.80]) by mrout1.yahoo.com (8.13.6/8.13.6/y.out) with ESMTP id mAL2UsCn021012; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 18:30:54 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=serpent; d=yahoo-inc.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=cc:message-id:from:to:in-reply-to:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:date:references:x-mailer; b=1hn1we55dGZ0StteWIriGpVdPLefYmTodiR08ZO9+t6WlcF2ZhiPZJwH6b3PdC/M Message-Id: <41008FD1-84CB-471C-992F-FA6236297927@yahoo-inc.com> From: Mark Nottingham To: Lisa Dusseault In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Subject: Re: [APPS-REVIEW] HTTP cross-domain scripting access control W3C document Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 18:30:54 -0800 References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.929.2) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 10:57:13 -0800 Cc: Apps Discuss , APPS-REVIEW@ietf.org X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed"; DelSp="yes" Sender: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Have they asked for an APPS area review? Cheers, On 19/11/2008, at 12:36 PM, Lisa Dusseault wrote: > FYI: > > http://www.w3.org/TR/access-control/ > > "This document defines a mechanism to enable client-side cross-site > requests. Specifications that want to enable cross-site requests in > an API they define can use the algorithms defined by this > specification. If such an API is used on http://example.org > resources, a resource on http://hello-world.example can opt in using > the mechanism described by this specification (e.g., specifying > Access-Control-Allow-Origin: http://example.org as response header), > which would allow that resource to be fetched cross-site from http://example.org > ." > > > _______________________________________________ > APPS-REVIEW mailing list > APPS-REVIEW@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-review -- Mark Nottingham mnot@yahoo-inc.com _______________________________________________ Apps-Discuss mailing list Apps-Discuss@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss