From nobody Fri Mar 2 13:48:21 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8872D12025C for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2018 13:48:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eMUXXCaIO088 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2018 13:48:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2001:14b8:1829::130]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9212D1200E5 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2018 13:48:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 628526601C8 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2018 23:48:16 +0200 (EET) Received: from p130.piuha.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (p130.piuha.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 890d3rsh0eeS for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2018 23:48:15 +0200 (EET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2001:14b8:1829::130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 03B61660183 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2018 23:48:14 +0200 (EET) From: Jari Arkko Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Message-Id: <3F4CFB9E-CCD3-43FD-BF02-E5D82147D85E@piuha.net> Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2018 23:48:14 +0200 To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] test X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2018 21:48:19 -0000 Test, please ignore. From nobody Mon Mar 5 14:23:00 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 738FB127010 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 14:22:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QkuDKWYiwow7 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 14:22:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2001:14b8:1829::130]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE289126DC2 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 14:22:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43238660254 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 00:22:57 +0200 (EET) Received: from p130.piuha.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (p130.piuha.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NNopRXAUAeKI for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 00:22:56 +0200 (EET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2001:14b8:1829::130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EBDF9660182 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 00:22:55 +0200 (EET) From: Jari Arkko Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_28D38CE2-221E-4EFC-A09C-3D17381DD583" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Message-Id: References: <3FF8C38C-9C88-4034-AD21-9812CED63BC8@piuha.net> To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2018 00:22:55 +0200 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] consolidation X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 22:22:59 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_28D38CE2-221E-4EFC-A09C-3D17381DD583 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 One of the topics we=E2=80=99ve discussed recently at the IAB are consolidation trends in various Internet services, and how architecture be affected by those trends or vice versa. And whether there might be IETF work that would be useful due to all this. Here=E2=80=99s a blog article on this topic: https://www.ietf.org/blog/consolidation/ = Thoughts? One good location for discussion of this topic would be the architecture-discuss list Jari Arkko for the IAB --Apple-Mail=_28D38CE2-221E-4EFC-A09C-3D17381DD583 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
One of the topics we=E2=80=99ve discussed recently at the IAB = are
consolidation trends in various Internet = services, and how
architecture be affected by those = trends or vice versa. And
whether there might be = IETF work that would be useful
due to all = this.

Here=E2=80= =99s a blog article on this topic:

https://www.ietf.org/blog/consolidation/
Thoughts?

One good location for discussion of = this topic would be
the architecture-discuss = list

Jari = Arkko for the IAB

= --Apple-Mail=_28D38CE2-221E-4EFC-A09C-3D17381DD583-- From nobody Mon Mar 5 14:33:18 2018 Return-Path: <2600.ac@gmail.com> X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34ACE12711E for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 14:33:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.96 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.96 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_STARTS_WITH_NUMS=0.738, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9TgB1JIFLe4R for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 14:33:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf0-x236.google.com (mail-lf0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6AE74129C6E for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 14:33:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf0-x236.google.com with SMTP id 37so25583939lfs.7 for ; Mon, 05 Mar 2018 14:33:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=v0IbxIhi3oSgdRLpfbCsA1ot06bGbcGEVzHUF9yE+lw=; b=Zb5C/megp25O5jEE8c6q3WM9WMkWViUtMFi9pMxtHWru4Sb6ujGo2dO9Hr8chu3Hj+ UBs+y2jJLc6t3riwX2L9rPZtNFySjLVASf4p2SDfk4VYoNsmWKOmidUwuujp2wTLXK5R hNvSec2KRkn1M8+NpajCmkGx+2TKIY8snJWSItTKh0vkyPvs2WlSdKX3yYTPv8U5HuCo Fpy1QEqtOZJIPC5NpFTW9KffTZOKqyZjm5U63tXhf5Y1jrY125YyaVvnw6bnC//IR7Oi NKm6ml3iSBCwBH6n9cydPPchmKHhDXKhoPRGe9Us41OxelD6GKfczMpSoyIuu7bg1PcT rkxg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=v0IbxIhi3oSgdRLpfbCsA1ot06bGbcGEVzHUF9yE+lw=; b=Ecm5sujhd8bVDRcMapyaKFZ+wGvgbHGmWPzx7p9qaslS6b6axjOYuPOd7P0WJr2DgG AKIJv7WX5w2A1/dl4g94f7cVCG3JN8h1TPnMHJEHoQADBpR5IqNIVokuT4FFnTZqZp1f mCyuSkWnFB0KmzWFbIUfqkQeKDSlpFVSjO5TwzHrgyJ58BElIjYZwy8qUdv/lH5eJPiV m2bPkj6xGFtkIKbyzgBPsoMFUKjB7Uj0edTTxoLnxiGcZlidYsOr0N5hFDO4ueXuQfgC RnOQqlkI0BTrnEgLIceSK+7wmSqkaQ+3nJpRM8APuYwNS/pYpR7zXmHEzMJWghoJr5t1 x7GQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7GcESzXAVnOFQi10AIoid25NdFaEC6IF7o+txvwhzT6SThsr370 fC9Ip3pppeLBdF56+Q6o/WPAfg3ZwBtOAc6zaaA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELvr7EyC1Aat5fscqGUklPZSD8yNEyewghFvO+XStj0B3/yRslnUOjMsFeVSTmIXRWH0HHzBKiSn01CtPfzi5ps= X-Received: by 10.25.210.84 with SMTP id j81mr5520647lfg.112.1520289189695; Mon, 05 Mar 2018 14:33:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3FF8C38C-9C88-4034-AD21-9812CED63BC8@piuha.net> In-Reply-To: From: Anthony Caiafa <2600.ac@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 22:32:58 +0000 Message-ID: To: Jari Arkko Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a11411e8a1b94310566b1e989" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] consolidation X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 22:33:17 -0000 --001a11411e8a1b94310566b1e989 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Seems like an interesting thought. I think it would help remove some of the unwanted traffic clogging the airways and separating out the social networks and such. One problem I see with this is it would eventually allow providers to charge for access to those =E2=80=9Cservices=E2=80=9D. On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 5:23 PM Jari Arkko wrote: > > One of the topics we=E2=80=99ve discussed recently at the IAB are > consolidation trends in various Internet services, and how > architecture be affected by those trends or vice versa. And > whether there might be IETF work that would be useful > due to all this. > > Here=E2=80=99s a blog article on this topic: > > https://www.ietf.org/blog/consolidation/ > > Thoughts? > > One good location for discussion of this topic would be > the architecture-discuss list > > Jari Arkko for the IAB > > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > --001a11411e8a1b94310566b1e989 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Seems like an interesting thought. I think it would = help remove some of the unwanted traffic clogging the airways and separatin= g out the social networks and such. One problem I see with this is it would= eventually allow providers to charge for access to those =E2=80=9Cservices= =E2=80=9D.=C2=A0

On Mon, Mar 5, 20= 18 at 5:23 PM Jari Arkko <jari.a= rkko@piuha.net> wrote:

One of the topics we=E2=80=99ve discussed recently at the IAB ar= e
consolidation trends in various Internet services, and how
architecture be affected by those trends or vice versa. And
whether there might be IETF work that would be useful
due to all= this.

Here=E2=80=99s a blog article on this topic= :

https://www.ietf.org/blog/consolidation/

Thoughts?

One good location for discussion = of this topic would be
the architecture-discuss list
Jari Arkko for the IAB

<= /div>_______________________________________________
Architecture-discuss mailing list
Architec= ture-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/arc= hitecture-discuss
--001a11411e8a1b94310566b1e989-- From nobody Mon Mar 5 14:36:15 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42BE11243FE for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 14:36:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OyViw0R8blvD for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 14:35:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from resqmta-po-12v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-po-12v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe16:19:96:114:154:171]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 923F412711E for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 14:35:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from resomta-po-20v.sys.comcast.net ([96.114.154.244]) by resqmta-po-12v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTP id syhreDNX8hxEPsyi6efiZh; Mon, 05 Mar 2018 22:35:58 +0000 Received: from [172.22.228.216] ([162.210.130.3]) by resomta-po-20v.sys.comcast.net with SMTP id syfyeUCXqQvC8syg1ej0ED; Mon, 05 Mar 2018 22:33:56 +0000 From: Tony Li Message-Id: <618701B8-B1FC-48DC-9FB4-7DD5B739F928@tony.li> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_AFAE73F1-C158-4F79-84C7-4190D0A6478C" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.2 \(3445.5.20\)) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2018 14:33:46 -0800 In-Reply-To: Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org To: Jari Arkko References: <3FF8C38C-9C88-4034-AD21-9812CED63BC8@piuha.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.5.20) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfGu5K2Aikc9+JQaqVx5rVEw2YOZw7ckCWRrRs6bgDqYq6NbiguLWTC3rlyG/qO2k3jB1dXyU3KHkW1EsWPQxezDewIVH8y4HQH6C3ZhgguzqQq5e1f+j 5uPT6lY5GOSaqqOvkij53WIQxJ9iVOF/WcXyrDfOwoGclwApcencl98G3Q/SRiLsj1ZDBu3VXebwlMZx7gjDdSVAdEi1t9TDovA= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] consolidation X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 22:36:02 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_AFAE73F1-C158-4F79-84C7-4190D0A6478C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Mar 5, 2018, at 2:22 PM, Jari Arkko wrote: >=20 >=20 > One of the topics we=E2=80=99ve discussed recently at the IAB are > consolidation trends in various Internet services, and how > architecture be affected by those trends or vice versa. And > whether there might be IETF work that would be useful > due to all this. >=20 > Here=E2=80=99s a blog article on this topic: >=20 > https://www.ietf.org/blog/consolidation/ = >=20 > Thoughts? >=20 I was intrigued by the article. Is the IAB working on improving the = speed of light? :-) Seriously tho, consolidation is a matter of fact in any maturing = industry and much tho we might not like it, a look in the mirror reminds = us that yes indeed, we are getting on. Consolidation happens. We cannot fight economies of scale with = technology. We have enabled alternatives. What more would you have us = do? Federation is all well and good, but isn=E2=80=99t the primary issue = there non-technical? I would welcome more specific insights on our architectural direction. T --Apple-Mail=_AFAE73F1-C158-4F79-84C7-4190D0A6478C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On Mar 5, 2018, at 2:22 PM, Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net> wrote:


One of the topics we=E2=80=99ve discussed recently at the IAB = are
consolidation trends in various Internet = services, and how
architecture be affected by those = trends or vice versa. And
whether there might be = IETF work that would be useful
due to all = this.

Here=E2=80= =99s a blog article on this topic:

https://www.ietf.org/blog/consolidation/
Thoughts?



I was intrigued by the = article.  Is the IAB working on improving the speed of light? = :-)

Seriously tho, consolidation is = a matter of fact in any maturing industry and much tho we might not like = it, a look in the mirror reminds us that yes indeed, we are getting = on.

Consolidation happens. We cannot = fight economies of scale with technology. We have enabled alternatives. =  What more would you have us do?

Federation is all well and good, but isn=E2=80=99t = the primary issue there non-technical?

I would welcome more specific insights on our = architectural direction.

T


= --Apple-Mail=_AFAE73F1-C158-4F79-84C7-4190D0A6478C-- From nobody Mon Mar 5 14:58:45 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A92DC12711E for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 14:58:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gsoztqjvfaXM for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 14:58:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf0-x233.google.com (mail-pf0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4FB851273E2 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 14:58:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf0-x233.google.com with SMTP id f80so7903641pfa.8 for ; Mon, 05 Mar 2018 14:58:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=kFArB/BYOobxdmdYry9aBw00QFLy9sEGwm8Na+JMhbM=; b=oRMv4tAGTuraXmYuhMFN2TngBb4rSqzZ85FAcil76jK2vOFAdO1hTQA13PywyrWY/2 KCEQ/UaWG2pdQ54JupO+/9tvBo/vlSpOM3RAiV6ZhnW7Oej2vOzeCgV2Bu14pSHr1Wxm 9Uz2Q3raXWhHN3PkgtICFtUAhDNajVyaQsB52kjSIhp5fQsmQSGe8CK8mDxwAxNf76KW 5adPb4OrTdlCwuqlHN/iSzpF10axqge6jZ19ZMr4o1DYQ+A+7nU1FopBLWLR8lXb/Dxl llTAKdx+eUKIrRQ5hJSbPkj8XvYJ5ES/8EQGZFTVKLuSeWFZe8rlAphx6RYDe0vEEEeG BzsQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=kFArB/BYOobxdmdYry9aBw00QFLy9sEGwm8Na+JMhbM=; b=WH4AQDxuw4GIdal4PupQTBjII9B5WFAptYFRiw2N9Pz+C1vMiBAiPyTfO16xzVKvyr 9fVfTM20T3acq0ccPxWUV4HWhPOwPDmYA0tYOJlXZB1DQP9hR29gPt1u/T3nOQMocTNY YiFuNHKYkq+p+x01Av7IY3VlsZDdA99WmKlnzg9bK9LDZT4LwTUnBsGsVy4h3jh85pDk YawLD//JOaQy2TohjLX6aJA0OI07x8sAO3sRD934dCeaWMzw3sShx4G0gHJdFZ1OiN5g cpMmcvezuowdOLFjNtQswjywKzjrMX+nXvOZU8utTSf7w5Qs0PMa4fwafyc/7Dc+l0kP ccJw== X-Gm-Message-State: APf1xPBbgHf3xFuhgmhA5ayIGD+5FQzSjtm2xR6bZidbjVKFtOdFyHje Egz5J15ILUMYM+DkD3sVzYL26kkl X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELthOdnuTrv7TkrQjGvHNn01kVpwRJvbWqRYSYbBbpBfu/PB+2QynIpeiHiPLAUZDXeZFNDppQ== X-Received: by 10.101.102.21 with SMTP id w21mr13829433pgv.247.1520290710574; Mon, 05 Mar 2018 14:58:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [130.216.38.95] (sc-cs-567-laptop.uoa.auckland.ac.nz. [130.216.38.95]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e25sm24953693pfn.67.2018.03.05.14.58.28 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 05 Mar 2018 14:58:30 -0800 (PST) Sender: Brian Carpenter To: Tony Li Cc: Jari Arkko , architecture-discuss@ietf.org References: <3FF8C38C-9C88-4034-AD21-9812CED63BC8@piuha.net> <618701B8-B1FC-48DC-9FB4-7DD5B739F928@tony.li> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2018 11:58:28 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <618701B8-B1FC-48DC-9FB4-7DD5B739F928@tony.li> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] consolidation X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 22:58:39 -0000 On 06/03/2018 11:33, Tony Li wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On Mar 5, 2018, at 2:22 PM, Jari Arkko wrote: >> >> >> One of the topics we=E2=80=99ve discussed recently at the IAB are >> consolidation trends in various Internet services, and how >> architecture be affected by those trends or vice versa. And >> whether there might be IETF work that would be useful >> due to all this. >> >> Here=E2=80=99s a blog article on this topic: >> >> https://www.ietf.org/blog/consolidation/ >> >> Thoughts? >> >=20 >=20 > I was intrigued by the article. Is the IAB working on improving the sp= eed of light? :-) >=20 > Seriously tho, consolidation is a matter of fact in any maturing indust= ry and much tho we might not like it, a look in the mirror reminds us tha= t yes indeed, we are getting on. >=20 > Consolidation happens. We cannot fight economies of scale with technolo= gy. We have enabled alternatives. What more would you have us do? >=20 > Federation is all well and good, but isn=E2=80=99t the primary issue th= ere non-technical? >=20 > I would welcome more specific insights on our architectural direction. What he said. Consolidation is a certainty as a market matures, and presu= mably the market for Internet transit is about ready to be deemed mature.= But I think there's another big trend: a much more fuzzy edge. Call it I= oT or whatever you want, if the edge expands from a few billion to a few = hundred billion nodes, there will be a considerable effect on protocols a= nd practices. I'm beginning to think that's what the IETF must prepare fo= r, to avoid becoming a legacy SDO. Brian From nobody Mon Mar 5 15:03:53 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E525127AD4 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 15:03:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ats4wkeAvWl7 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 15:03:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from resqmta-po-11v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-po-11v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe16:19:96:114:154:170]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7B4911273E2 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 15:03:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from resomta-po-03v.sys.comcast.net ([96.114.154.227]) by resqmta-po-11v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTP id sz86eliy1mIsssz8cekiFa; Mon, 05 Mar 2018 23:03:22 +0000 Received: from [172.22.228.216] ([162.210.130.3]) by resomta-po-03v.sys.comcast.net with SMTP id sz6TecQvT2kNUsz6VevsfN; Mon, 05 Mar 2018 23:01:20 +0000 From: tony.li@tony.li Message-Id: <6FDC8387-5178-4BBB-A3B7-E75288BD22A6@tony.li> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_3271F80E-66FC-440D-BB78-0A846B0E7EA2" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.2 \(3445.5.20\)) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2018 15:01:08 -0800 In-Reply-To: Cc: Jari Arkko , architecture-discuss@ietf.org To: Brian E Carpenter References: <3FF8C38C-9C88-4034-AD21-9812CED63BC8@piuha.net> <618701B8-B1FC-48DC-9FB4-7DD5B739F928@tony.li> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.5.20) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfOtJDtex+Wk1cWhb3ggMuJUnD+ZL7ORv5CB+nufF1wATEYdB2jtEsvr5+A0Sb6AKP15vH+a3Hn/5UR+pRfHXEDA0Pi70j5B80k25sCT7or5KaiRh5bwb Jpqwiao6cXkqLxu+nTPWAnhD4DMe4dc9xRWzA7BPp0O4/g3ygCLoAPKdjQ33yAZCyZ2b6Ew3X1i+Wf9BCUTS+zqA5qU5CLTItLoh8mpxPK7NP53qX1qKNYS2 mh/F3oiaWfkFqGNRSCoqrA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] consolidation X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 23:03:51 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_3271F80E-66FC-440D-BB78-0A846B0E7EA2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >=20 > But I think there's another big trend: a much more fuzzy edge. Call it = IoT or whatever you want, if the edge expands from a few billion to a = few hundred billion nodes, there will be a considerable effect on = protocols and practices. I'm beginning to think that's what the IETF = must prepare for, to avoid becoming a legacy SDO. Unsurprisingly, I concur with Brian. If the IAB would actually like to = push for useful security standards for IoT, that would be beneficial. Tony --Apple-Mail=_3271F80E-66FC-440D-BB78-0A846B0E7EA2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

But I think there's another big = trend: a much more fuzzy edge. Call it IoT or whatever you want, if the = edge expands from a few billion to a few hundred billion nodes, there = will be a considerable effect on protocols and practices. I'm beginning = to think that's what the IETF must prepare for, to avoid becoming a = legacy SDO.


Unsurprisingly, I concur = with Brian. If the IAB would actually like to push for useful security = standards for IoT, that would be beneficial.

Tony

= --Apple-Mail=_3271F80E-66FC-440D-BB78-0A846B0E7EA2-- From nobody Mon Mar 5 15:08:09 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F33C212EA9F for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 15:07:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6rQCCXUpngtV for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 15:07:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl0-x229.google.com (mail-pl0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7BC3212711E for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 15:07:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl0-x229.google.com with SMTP id bb3-v6so10685597plb.2 for ; Mon, 05 Mar 2018 15:07:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=0iIQzXXFgYFa0+hlTm0pQFtfF19PwwwawJBtzscoiMc=; b=M8v4HivijPhnZ1sd5qW6ASYQpYv2mR5IaxBisQa3edrtLySv1Mpx8imbDow5ar+tA+ b4TzYl0M5Sq/wCm5MFb27cQvvLFSluGcy6+RTGD2JI8+XHqhz1ydGscH25h7oAndfZ4s K1VnpDFEJJ0Jml+Fo9A3npTDf25hxT8hqneLE73+M4G48OovjhVAswU4lRI6fEm+kS8a 6nJvL+gi3lNuHzjVVUJu8W5a3827OManiBrygHJji+M0K7Q7ns2VcyNMrVXMAkXTZjP4 grh3/5SY/Nl4KSsD1X++lfdRe7YtmQUCb8TVPCTrArlW9Pwd71gIrfVaPgrY7Dnl68rB CcLQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=0iIQzXXFgYFa0+hlTm0pQFtfF19PwwwawJBtzscoiMc=; b=EIJXNLOZ1tPuT0Ow4ZAq5z0bIavDQ1X3aa6pveMZYxhhKx9l2PJd648onIx0NAiYB/ WmV2GzCOsrR063kmPuV/pxwOUTnidmYFGuhQILBZ1LUFvsfopn6BxRDfNWYbS++oDkly kBfPn2w4pgOJvZG8DU/JReFYozKfFUxM55X1PJOVl5CebLrHyN3vC/3K/2JY4QUqEAIP 1OvAnaS1sFdHZ2SquV38CgQlLNrcGZY5lS8J7jy2/XN0Yt8A5C6mEKU4xVu6G77EGS/t +XMrbVqX6YrDqwk1XkQ7+KyoIbP0EV3L+yBqx3X65rPHDDPd5ZZwRVhR7V+/5y7zzkKB XFDw== X-Gm-Message-State: APf1xPCIOlxJiM/FE6if6zFwHZjOqvnx6RHAQMmVFR+E/gJKKiXw6ILR 4z2Iki0gb7mqEjiTm4Zr0qM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELs9R4pKcPnO1wlV/Lv6hVVxd7W6R+BzrMzfhUu2rCH4gNBB76baEHNNH8uxQujrKxzbIhmYWg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:367:: with SMTP id 94-v6mr14819285pld.140.1520291275121; Mon, 05 Mar 2018 15:07:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.224.219] ([209.97.127.34]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g13sm24057477pfi.134.2018.03.05.15.07.53 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 05 Mar 2018 15:07:54 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9193F7A3-3F1A-4CCB-96B7-E443641F1D61"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2018 15:07:52 -0800 In-Reply-To: Cc: Bob Hinden , architecture-discuss@ietf.org To: Brian Carpenter , Tony Li References: <3FF8C38C-9C88-4034-AD21-9812CED63BC8@piuha.net> <618701B8-B1FC-48DC-9FB4-7DD5B739F928@tony.li> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] consolidation X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 23:08:02 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_9193F7A3-3F1A-4CCB-96B7-E443641F1D61 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Brian, Tony, >> I was intrigued by the article. Is the IAB working on improving the = speed of light? :-) >>=20 >> Seriously tho, consolidation is a matter of fact in any maturing = industry and much tho we might not like it, a look in the mirror reminds = us that yes indeed, we are getting on. >>=20 >> Consolidation happens. We cannot fight economies of scale with = technology. We have enabled alternatives. What more would you have us = do? >>=20 >> Federation is all well and good, but isn=E2=80=99t the primary issue = there non-technical? >>=20 >> I would welcome more specific insights on our architectural = direction. >=20 > What he said. Consolidation is a certainty as a market matures, and = presumably the market for Internet transit is about ready to be deemed = mature. But I think there's another big trend: a much more fuzzy edge. = Call it IoT or whatever you want, if the edge expands from a few billion = to a few hundred billion nodes, there will be a considerable effect on = protocols and practices. I'm beginning to think that's what the IETF = must prepare for, to avoid becoming a legacy SDO. >=20 Good points. There is clearly lots of consolation in serving predefined content, for = example web and video. I suspect there is less consolation in audio and = video conferencing because it=E2=80=99s interactive and can=E2=80=99t be = cached. I agree that there isn=E2=80=99t much the IETF can do regarding the = centralization of predefined content, but as you point out the edge is = about to grow significantly and this seems like an area the IETF can add = some value. Bob --Apple-Mail=_9193F7A3-3F1A-4CCB-96B7-E443641F1D61 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAlqdzcgACgkQrut0EXfn u6iBigf/aFOMs3qbW92m/idJlAsot5FPk0twYtiYri7mgdy7d7raHOlbIAJpiZOy wS1G2RWUdZ5eD/eqP+bOXh3CtzEtZD9ajoMheiljAuBiMKANzHqcGVkEG0iP34ko I2DpgF5TepKjvMBFMpixm/JiHX1CsGHNAfSPIk2XlO7OBJi7drXMAdhSrDHO+OGa oZKw4ojsGeTTNaJAjBYDT72ODhkI9l2gEMAPb0N3x+IkVc1Kx6LsZ/bGVWyyWo7Y vdbdtOfZWaaJpNc1FwVm5rK0CvKMULiDDePzIkqzO3YYr+woHlcMmZtGqQKCDRLJ LQvwpfPOuSW9EDfUYHG+J/6dgJQHjg== =+cY6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_9193F7A3-3F1A-4CCB-96B7-E443641F1D61-- From nobody Mon Mar 5 16:41:49 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 764F8124BAC for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 16:41:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.01 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.01 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14cVL4bEfBdQ for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 16:41:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl0-x233.google.com (mail-pl0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 876921241F5 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 16:41:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl0-x233.google.com with SMTP id ay8-v6so10822136plb.4 for ; Mon, 05 Mar 2018 16:41:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:subject:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version; bh=YbxFnXRc+oJxXRa3F+1Du3+g/8Xcu8/XfZseW0duwCk=; b=G02UBZQxHc0DN7EDdXuvKR9isKkaIE/NMwkuSZTUpe4kOQ5PXTJwBMxfJ5JwRZd8TW wVr0IEUrXZ01JREkWc65EkWpgY8FDJKxAIRPWGlN4UfeEgMcm7jEMIXigQmJOIuHKur0 8F9SIcHOv7fJkrmU0Zyq+JBx8xR0csp8Ju5b8t9tdzdB+z6Velx1TpYKGMGVz6qtR41S d43/GJabwai7W8r0Q32isoHHEPjiZ/cnCeuyazNfptbN81kov4yynHKAfyiT9JlN83sI H2G4ioXScXjw0bOq36Ngag9BIQ6Cvb2bgOCSqFZshjf6KnrjVRfgpbOgCRuHLL4RWBma TSbg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:subject:to:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version; bh=YbxFnXRc+oJxXRa3F+1Du3+g/8Xcu8/XfZseW0duwCk=; b=Jmyuybsyz41YZ8LYRbrD2n2YcOYyGWG+TJnPRm/xf7pEqI0Q6iUGrTbI/4yiHpHHrw aXLS51lymP184/2wVPyJe/MurUOEYhlfpv+afshb+vm/yq49Ej6Mw8Q3NAUizaiSwirQ 5mg0pR/terouJy5uwlduVvbuIr0b1bnZP9gpxWs7yGLYe+W2w0F3a5D2vPXBdsBZqcU9 nwD8DCWDh+hq62GiS7WAR5l+aeHUQ0kYttqfLO3gMBS18/S64uZ26b514eiR+nS/jf1y i5+FHcRfpZ61Tq+MRjBPasau82CaotadM8AFukDgvTd5pa2goYVyDAXoElCI5jIKDluL YGJg== X-Gm-Message-State: APf1xPCC/03zgJQngUqR1aN+pMAdHbcMUZC7N5MQCKn41GOQMSHoxcxD qiU6nZuX0gfLEWU5OV/DpUmWVYMqIMs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELtYHFGORSq3XlUtzmGOurukDgju95heWHItd6YYm08t3oDN45J3KtxpoKB+0LWY2aCQ5NI9YA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:b697:: with SMTP id c23-v6mr14872395pls.328.1520296904675; Mon, 05 Mar 2018 16:41:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from [2620:0:10e7:10:4944:8fe7:36cb:5bcc] ([2620:0:10e7:10:4944:8fe7:36cb:5bcc]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e82sm26186676pfh.89.2018.03.05.16.41.43 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Mon, 05 Mar 2018 16:41:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2018 16:41:42 -0800 From: james woodyatt To: Arch-D Message-Id: <1520296902.3218.1@smtp.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <3FF8C38C-9C88-4034-AD21-9812CED63BC8@piuha.net> <618701B8-B1FC-48DC-9FB4-7DD5B739F928@tony.li> X-Mailer: geary/0.11.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=-iqDN2nAv5mSBy5gdm5ZR" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] consolidation X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2018 00:41:47 -0000 --=-iqDN2nAv5mSBy5gdm5ZR Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 3:07 PM, Bob Hinden wrote: > [Brian Carpenter wrote:] >>=20 >> What he said. Consolidation is a certainty as a market matures, and=20 >> presumably the market for Internet transit is about ready to be=20 >> deemed mature. But I think there's another big trend: a much more=20 >> fuzzy edge. Call it IoT or whatever you want, if the edge expands=20 >> from a few billion to a few hundred billion nodes, there will be a=20 >> considerable effect on protocols and practices. I'm beginning to=20 >> think that's what the IETF must prepare for, to avoid becoming a=20 >> legacy SDO. > Good points. >=20 > There is clearly lots of consolation in serving predefined content,=20 > for example web and video. I suspect there is less consolation in=20 > audio and video conferencing because it=E2=80=99s interactive and can=E2= =80=99t=20 > be cached. >=20 > I agree that there isn=E2=80=99t much the IETF can do regarding the=20 > centralization of predefined content, but as you point out the edge=20 > is about to grow significantly and this seems like an area the IETF=20 > can add some value. From where I sit, the architectural centering of content and services=20 in warehouse scale computing centers is dominated by the fact that=20 first-mile links to retail subscribers are almost never symmetrical. That edge with the hundred billion nodes? It's where the=20 sensor/actuator cells are located, but application state and the=20 algorithms that process it are increasingly located elsewhere, closer=20 to the core, where network paths have higher bandwidth, lower latency=20 and are less asymmetrical. That looks to me *less* fuzzy, not more--=20 intelligence is vacating the edge of the network and consolidating in=20 a small number of central points. Sure the number of nodes at the edge may be increasing, but the variety=20 of the nodes can decrease at the same time, simplifying the=20 requirements of the network. In that light, perhaps the best thing for=20 IETF to do is to prepare for its role as a legacy SDO, rather than to=20 search for ways to avoid it. --james = --=-iqDN2nAv5mSBy5gdm5ZR Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 3:07 PM, Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com> wro= te:
 [Brian Carpenter wrote:]
=20 What he said. Consolidation is a certainty as a market matures, and presuma= bly the market for Internet transit is about ready to be deemed mature. But= I think there's another big trend: a much more fuzzy edge. Call it IoT or = whatever you want, if the edge expands from a few billion to a few hundred = billion nodes, there will be a considerable effect on protocols and practic= es. I'm beginning to think that's what the IETF must prepare for, to avoid = becoming a legacy SDO.

Good points. There is clearly lots of consolation in serving predefined content, for exa= mple web and video. I suspect there is less consolation in audio and video= conferencing because it=E2=80=99s interactive and can=E2=80=99t be cached. I agree that there isn=E2=80=99t much the IETF can do regarding the central= ization of predefined content, but as you point out the edge is about to gr= ow significantly and this seems like an area the IETF can add some value.

From where I sit, the architectural centeri= ng of content and services in warehouse scale computing centers is dominate= d by the fact that first-mile links to retail subscribers are almost never = symmetrical.

That edge with the hundred billion no= des? It's where the sensor/actuator cells are located, but application stat= e and the algorithms that process it are increasingly located elsewhere, cl= oser to the core, where network paths have higher bandwidth, lower latency = and are less asymmetrical. That looks to me *less* fuzzy, not more-- intell= igence is vacating the edge of  the network and consolidating in a sma= ll number of central points.

Sure the number of no= des at the edge may be increasing, but the variety of the nodes can decreas= e at the same time, simplifying the requirements of the network. In that li= ght, perhaps the best thing for IETF to do is to prepare for its role as a = legacy SDO, rather than to search for ways to avoid it.

--james
= --=-iqDN2nAv5mSBy5gdm5ZR-- From nobody Mon Mar 5 23:22:50 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84075126CF6 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 23:22:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NuVb6IVhFOFa for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 23:22:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2537D126CE8 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2018 23:22:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A32E26601DA; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 09:22:44 +0200 (EET) Received: from p130.piuha.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (p130.piuha.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MIU26756Qzo2; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 09:22:43 +0200 (EET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2001:14b8:1829::130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7E53A6601D7; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 09:22:43 +0200 (EET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Jari Arkko In-Reply-To: <618701B8-B1FC-48DC-9FB4-7DD5B739F928@tony.li> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2018 09:22:42 +0200 Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <3FF8C38C-9C88-4034-AD21-9812CED63BC8@piuha.net> <618701B8-B1FC-48DC-9FB4-7DD5B739F928@tony.li> To: Tony Li X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] consolidation X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2018 07:22:48 -0000 Tony, Of course the main driver for consolidation trends is a maturing = industry. And, perhaps more importantly, an efficient market (such as = the Internet is) that makes it possible for the best to be big aka = =E2=80=9Cwinner takes it all=E2=80=9D. In a word, economics. But, I don=E2=80=99t think that removes our need to either understand = what is happening to the Internet =E2=80=94 this trend is having a major = effect =E2=80=94 or ask whether the technology choices we make have = *some* impact. The answer to the latter question might of course be that = any technology impact is negligible. Perhaps, but lets figure that out = for each relevant case. I personally believe our tech and community choices do have an effect. = To take a trivial example, I think we all agree that the existence of = standards is a key to ensure interoperability and broad market for large = number of players. Yet what things get standardised and used isn=E2=80=99t= predetermined. For instance, what are the relevant things we could do = tech wise for the emerging =E2=80=9Cfuzzy edge=E2=80=9D (as Brian calls = it) or the =E2=80=9Cconsolidated intelligent core=E2=80=9D (if you = believe in James=E2=80=99 darker vision)? Jari From nobody Tue Mar 6 05:32:31 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E93C71270AE for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 05:32:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.531 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.531 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id odN091EXrwkb for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 05:32:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from 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"architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [arch-d] consolidation Thread-Index: AQHTtNCMFccKTaw2+E6+b1YX1pPRAKPCnwAAgACTyACAAAK4+A== Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2018 13:32:26 +0000 Message-ID: <14E11A36-8DE4-4F8B-9210-6ED83EFBB0CE@cisco.com> References: <3FF8C38C-9C88-4034-AD21-9812CED63BC8@piuha.net> <618701B8-B1FC-48DC-9FB4-7DD5B739F928@tony.li>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] consolidation X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2018 13:32:31 -0000 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open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2018 14:14:21 -0000 UmVnYXJkaW5nIHRoZSBmdXp6eS1lZGdlL2ZyaW5nZSwgdGhlcmUgaXMgdGhlICJjb21tdW5pdHkg bmV0d29ya3MiIChmb3Igd2FudCBvZiBhIGJldHRlciBsYWJlbCkgYXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJlIC8gdGVj aG5vbG9neSAvIHN5c3RlbXMsIGUuZy4gc29tZSBvZiB0aGUgdGhpbmdzIGRpc2N1c3NlZCBpbiB0 aGUgR0FJQSBSRy4gVGhlc2UgY2FuIGhhdmUgYSB2ZXJ5IGRpZmZlcmVudCBzdHJ1Y3R1cmUsIGdv dmVybmFuY2UsIGFuZCBncm93dGggdG8gY3VycmVudCBJU1BzIC8gSVhQcy4gIE9uZSBvZiB0aGUg b2JqZWN0aXZlcyBvZiBzdWNoIG5ldHdvcmtzIHNlZW1zIHRvIGJlIHRvIHByb3ZpZGUgY29ubmVj dGl2aXR5IHRvIG1vcmUgcGVvcGxlIGFuZCBkZXZpY2VzLCBidXQgSSBkbyBub3QsIGhvd2V2ZXIs IGtub3cgd2hhdCB0aGUgbGV2ZWwgb2YgZ3Jvd3RoIGFuZCB0cmFqZWN0b3J5IG9mIHN1Y2ggbmV0 d29ya3MgYXJlLCBhbmQgaG93IHRoZXkgbWlnaHQgaW1wYWN0IHRoZSBjb3JlIG5ldHdvcmsgYXJj aGl0ZWN0dXJlIG92ZXJhbGwgKGlmIGF0IGFsbCkuDQoNCkNoZWVycywNCi0tL1NhbGVlbQ0KDQo+ 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Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 137FE1241FC for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 06:30:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OeXOQns0WM4u for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 06:30:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 75738127076 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 06:30:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1etDbR-0006o2-GR for architecture-discuss@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2018 15:30:05 +0100 To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org References: <3FF8C38C-9C88-4034-AD21-9812CED63BC8@piuha.net> <618701B8-B1FC-48DC-9FB4-7DD5B739F928@tony.li> <14E11A36-8DE4-4F8B-9210-6ED83EFBB0CE@cisco.com> From: Niels ten Oever Message-ID: <4321e02f-e24a-379b-a901-3b3366eae733@digitaldissidents.org> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2018 15:30:04 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: 29cc722430e8f1f6ed904119444c0d49b0f3ee91 X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: bbdeaaa4d227adae8d620e69c05793d6 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] consolidation X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2018 14:30:11 -0000 Market consolidation might actually be an euphemism for market concentration. I would by no means call this a property of a 'maturing industry', but rather of market failure. It has be shown time and again in political economics that monopolies and oligarchies are not beneficial for either standard setting or innovation. Understanding the process of market concentration as an irreversible aspect of infrastructure would be buying in to the interest of a limited number of large companies that have a quite disproportionate power over the worlds communication infrastructures. In short, I applaud the IAB for bringing up this issue for discussion, because market concentration undermines the very distributed nature of the Internet. All the best, Niels On 03/06/2018 03:13 PM, Saleem Bhatti wrote: > Regarding the fuzzy-edge/fringe, there is the "community networks" (for want of a better label) architecture / technology / systems, e.g. some of the things discussed in the GAIA RG. These can have a very different structure, governance, and growth to current ISPs / IXPs. One of the objectives of such networks seems to be to provide connectivity to more people and devices, but I do not, however, know what the level of growth and trajectory of such networks are, and how they might impact the core network architecture overall (if at all). > > Cheers, > --/Saleem > >> On 06 Mar 2018, at 13:32, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: >> >> Hello Jari: >> >> Maybe we can recognize some aspects of the fuzzy edge from which we can derive architecture elements: >> >> - this fuzzy edge is deeper than one hop; it’s really a Fringe >> - some addressing and routing happen within the fringe; >> - there is an abundance of types of links, topologies are fuzzy, routing itself is best effort >> - the fringe is mobile but its mobility cannot leak in the stable core; this means that overlays will play a major role, billions of them, possibly on demand and short-lived >> - with this any-to-any reachability goes away, one device / agent connects to a fringe network (possibly an overlay) on a need to know basis, and cannot be accessed/ attacked from outside >> - the end to end principle may also be impacted with new models such as data aggregation and knowledge diffusion whereby the data goes all the way up the DIKW model inside the network >> - some of the fringe is very low end and autonomic with no possible human intervention but some other pieces are very high end and classical forwarding models may not be sufficient, e.g., introducing determinism vs. Best effort. >> >> Take care, >> >> Pascal >> >>> Le 6 mars 2018 à 08:23, Jari Arkko a écrit : >>> >>> Tony, >>> >>> Of course the main driver for consolidation trends is a maturing industry. And, perhaps more importantly, an efficient market (such as the Internet is) that makes it possible for the best to be big aka “winner takes it all”. In a word, economics. >>> >>> But, I don’t think that removes our need to either understand what is happening to the Internet — this trend is having a major effect — or ask whether the technology choices we make have *some* impact. The answer to the latter question might of course be that any technology impact is negligible. Perhaps, but lets figure that out for each relevant case. >>> >>> I personally believe our tech and community choices do have an effect. To take a trivial example, I think we all agree that the existence of standards is a key to ensure interoperability and broad market for large number of players. Yet what things get standardised and used isn’t predetermined. For instance, what are the relevant things we could do tech wise for the emerging “fuzzy edge” (as Brian calls it) or the “consolidated intelligent core” (if you believe in James’ darker vision)? >>> >>> Jari >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Architecture-discuss mailing list >>> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss >> _______________________________________________ >> Architecture-discuss mailing list >> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > -- Niels ten Oever Head of Digital Article 19 www.article19.org PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9 From nobody Tue Mar 6 06:49:31 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65694127076 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 06:49:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.208 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.208 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=isdg.net header.b=iz2DJYJF; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=beta.winserver.com header.b=UeyySB2p Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1rgbPXWO7Vfu for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 06:49:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from ntbbs.winserver.com (unknown [76.245.57.69]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B05F41243F3 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 06:49:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; d=isdg.net; s=tms1; a=rsa-sha1; c=simple/relaxed; l=1444; t=1520347762; atps=ietf.org; atpsh=sha1; h=Received:Received:Received:Received:Message-ID:Date:From: Organization:To:Subject:List-ID; bh=8lyTreSWs3jG8gYFSW5qz2m7nSw=; b=iz2DJYJFrv1EqkJ8L6AsXMCYdBurdEvt4w3i6u/DH7idiOh+PanSZTnPlxGP8/ x6MI9/DBGXY9OhWy2a9GpnGbpQwmr/O3zq7eEhGg5FsqtTLZ37yqvkZV10ohfKJ3 0y5XIctefP6KJEpl5H1DE8TboUNWh0kzT4QmTjNAHNBj4= Received: by winserver.com (Wildcat! SMTP Router v7.0.454.6) for architecture-discuss@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2018 09:49:22 -0500 Authentication-Results: dkim.winserver.com; dkim=pass header.d=beta.winserver.com header.s=tms1 header.i=beta.winserver.com; adsp=pass policy=all author.d=isdg.net asl.d=beta.winserver.com; Received: from beta.winserver.com ([76.245.57.74]) by winserver.com (Wildcat! SMTP v7.0.454.6) with ESMTP id 1626457864.1.9708; Tue, 06 Mar 2018 09:49:22 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; d=beta.winserver.com; s=tms1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/relaxed; l=1444; t=1520347420; h=Received:Received: Message-ID:Date:From:Organization:To:Subject:List-ID; bh=G6amQqk GRdl0T/vQBbbZowiAeOQcd9rMgtKRBkFaspM=; b=UeyySB2pjiWXPfUt3il+dMa 9BuzTMIQvySfSm/pMivKOQ/cbDSHWBkploXQ0jwKc2mx6N18KLF+3plS3osc8t+x qd6slaaazTxXaXzrdsBiqX6uep7JDa4iZc82WP8q/m/n3Ho0AwpphWqxvNZnRpZ9 qosnXAb4aFx0RUnxGIMs= Received: by beta.winserver.com (Wildcat! SMTP Router v7.0.454.6) for architecture-discuss@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2018 09:43:40 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.68] ([99.121.5.8]) by beta.winserver.com (Wildcat! SMTP v7.0.454.6) with ESMTP id 1626325846.9.171936; Tue, 06 Mar 2018 09:43:38 -0500 Message-ID: <5A9EAA6F.7090001@isdg.net> Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2018 09:49:19 -0500 From: Hector Santos Organization: Santronics Software, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian E Carpenter , Tony Li CC: architecture-discuss@ietf.org References: <3FF8C38C-9C88-4034-AD21-9812CED63BC8@piuha.net> <618701B8-B1FC-48DC-9FB4-7DD5B739F928@tony.li> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] consolidation X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2018 14:49:30 -0000 On 3/5/2018 5:58 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > What he said. Consolidation is a certainty as a market matures, and presumably the market for Internet transit is about ready to be deemed mature. But I think there's another big trend: a much more fuzzy edge. Call it IoT or whatever you want, if the edge expands from a few billion to a few hundred billion nodes, there will be a considerable effect on protocols and practices. I'm beginning to think that's what the IETF must prepare for, to avoid becoming a legacy SDO. > > Brian Consolidation/Centralization, we been through these cycles before where we end up decentralizing again in some fashion, so I tend to agree with you. In fact, my products future somewhat depends on it. Communications at the private/local network levels is still desirable and even though it may save people some money (and hardware headaches), I'm hearing more and more discontent with the concept of the "cloud" and the lost of control to the 3rd party. Just consider the smart TVs becoming the new PCs. Once the consumer can do more with it, i.e. programmability, install stuff and run stuff, keep things "more private," things will change. But I do agree that the concept of centralized comm (whether thru consolidation) is here to stay. Security and Licensing control issues apply. However, that doesn't mean "COLT" Communications Of Localized Things" will not happen as well. -- HLS From nobody Tue Mar 6 09:29:53 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D68A112EA67 for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 09:29:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.31 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.31 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CowgaSYRa5_t for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 09:29:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-in4.apple.com (mail-out4.apple.com [17.151.62.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4887112D951 for ; 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Tue, 6 Mar 2018 09:29:47 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 11973e12-d46b29e000001beb-4a-5a9ed00b8469 Received: from nwk-mmpp-sz12.apple.com (nwk-mmpp-sz12.apple.com [17.128.115.204]) by relay5.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id 36.A9.23499.A00DE9A5; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 09:29:47 -0800 (PST) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_dPfLYO56RlTSJQWN6z+JBg)" Received: from [17.192.171.189] (unknown [17.192.171.189]) by nwk-mmpp-sz12.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.2.2.20180130 64bit (built Jan 30 2018)) with ESMTPSA id <0P56005VNJ9M3G90@nwk-mmpp-sz12.apple.com>; Tue, 06 Mar 2018 09:29:46 -0800 (PST) Sender: tpauly@apple.com From: Tommy Pauly Message-id: <01B7A494-0AFF-4AC7-823B-B82EDD271441@apple.com> Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2018 09:29:46 -0800 In-reply-to: Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org To: Jari Arkko References: <3FF8C38C-9C88-4034-AD21-9812CED63BC8@piuha.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3458) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFrrALMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUi2FAYoct9YV6Uwf8+TosNdzpZLWbsW8Hm wOSxZMlPJo+tS6azBTBFcdmkpOZklqUW6dslcGW0tr5iLJgTW3F//SnGBsYJ/l2MnBwSAiYS /TMmsXYxcnEICaxmkti7fyk7TGL1u3Y2iMQhRom2vatYQRK8AoISPybfYwGxmQXCJM5vf84E UTSZSaJxwwTGLkYODmEBCYnNexJBatgEVCSOf9vA3MXIDtRrI7E3FyQqLKAs8ejbB3aQYhYB VYmZh3hAwpwCthKNl74yQQxXlJi8aDuYLQJUMvfoGrADhATyJZr+T2WEuFJWYuXsu2DnSwjM YZP4e3Y/2wRGoVlIDp2F5NBZQOuYBdQlpkzJhQhrSzx5d4EVwlaTWPh7EROy+AJGtlWMQrmJ mTm6mXkmeokFBTmpesn5uZsYQVEw3U5oB+OpVVaHGAU4GJV4eDfsnxclxJpYVlyZe4hRmoNF SZy3Y/PcKCGB9MSS1OzU1ILUovii0pzU4kOMTBycUg2MtTFLnt5e/pn/9aQHgkIq6Z28S9RP vfnRypQ0+VNz1exZW6d+jPbpMOu2UGGuXaVac2nmFeesp2Je7lL7Q7ME+Hl+fDwVsa7etF7s 0bnmhI625e+bUkMNuNYenRHL7mP2+db3414K1gV1fGc2e1xJ0X4ecytPVk5LrFji8WrhPZ/V eQ4UWfsosRRnJBpqMRcVJwIAwrW3Z2MCAAA= X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFjrMLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUi2FB8Rpf7wrwogw/rWC023OlktZixbwWb A5PHkiU/mTy2LpnOFsAUxWWTkpqTWZZapG+XwJXR2vqKsWBObMX99acYGxgn+HcxcnJICJhI rH7XztbFyMUhJHCIUaJt7ypWkASvgKDEj8n3WEBsZoEwifPbnzNBFE1mkmjcMIGxi5GDQ1hA QmLznkSQGjYBFYnj3zYwdzGyA/XaSOzNBYkKCyhLPPr2gR2kmEVAVWLmIR6QMKeArUTjpa9M EMMVJSYv2g5miwCVzD26BuwAIYF8iab/UxkhrpSVWDn7LusERv5ZSG6bheS2WUAbmAXUJaZM yYUIa0s8eXeBFcJWk1j4exETsvgCRrZVjAJFqTmJlaZ6iQUFOal6yfm5mxjBQVsYsYPx/zKr Q4wCHIxKPLwb9s+LEmJNLCuuzAUGEAezkgivzjGgEG9KYmVValF+fFFpTmrxIUZpDhYlcd6W nzOjhATSE0tSs1NTC1KLYLJMHJxSDYzHln8JbHac9+ik99xajpi+jredDg6/WZYtktzGrv/D wr5eNqLsd3VS1BTfHVbT6rrv79bY6b5TZE9Cy7MdJQvehMdMsCiv/6v8ZLqAzu57gkLsVRHV id33XV0tZj+095v4R7rlQMABBekrE9b1ZWfIn5Q/7fPCxVy0TsF/1RwPjvTVAk3TtiixFGck GmoxFxUnAgAkjxd8VgIAAA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] consolidation X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2018 17:29:51 -0000 --Boundary_(ID_dPfLYO56RlTSJQWN6z+JBg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jari, Thanks for posting this! It=E2=80=99s very interesting area of = discussion, and one that=E2=80=99s worth more thought. Reading the article, I am drawn to the question of why it is so = difficult to deploy interaction models on the Internet that don=E2=80=99t = involve one of the consolidated hubs. There are certainly factors of = economics and scale that make it more practical for large private = consolidations to provide high-quality services, but there are deeper = technical problems that the non-consolidated approach can=E2=80=99t = solve with today=E2=80=99s protocols. Large web services make a lot of sense to be offered through a single = entry point into a consolidated set of services. The economies of scale = make sense. However, it=E2=80=99s also increasingly common that in order = to interact with local and home network devices and peer devices, we = communicate via the same consolidated services in the =E2=80=9Ccloud". = Similarly, it=E2=80=99s easier to safely deploy a stable and secure = small service as part of a consolidated entity. If the IETF wanted to make it easier for solutions to not need to use = the large consolidated solutions, what gaps would need to be addressed? - Attacks such as Denial-of-Service (as mentioned in the article) - Accessibility: If a user needs to go back and access their home = network, or a friend=E2=80=99s device, what is the general solution = without going through the cloud service offered by the IoT = devices/social network? If everyone can get back to their homes without = NATs, etc, what other attacks might they be vulnerable to? - Privacy: While sending all of my traffic through a consolidated = service may allow the service to track what I do, at least I=E2=80=99m = able to avoid the known dangers on the open network that allow arbitrary = snoopers to see what DNS queries I=E2=80=99m doing, what small services = I connect to, etc. Consolidation acts as a better-than-nothing privacy = measure, as long as you don=E2=80=99t mind trusting the consolidated = entity. Until we have better standard privacy-enabling protocols that = don=E2=80=99t require obfuscation through one big link, this will be = hard to change. - Protocol ossification: On my local home network, I can install and = deploy new networking techniques; in a network behind one of these = =E2=80=9Cconsolidated=E2=80=9D services, there can also be new = techniques deployed. However, the open Internet between these is = definitely less tolerant to non-vanilla traffic. So, if someone wants to = deploy a networking service that has anything novel about it, it=E2=80=99s= best to spend as little time as possible on the open Internet, and = quickly get back to the consolidated network. And, if the link between = the user and the =E2=80=9Ccloud=E2=80=9D needs to be as standard as = possible to work well, it=E2=80=99s easier for a few entities to perfect = that link and fight the battles for new technologies rather than = requiring individuals or small entities to handle that. The idea of proposing =E2=80=9Cfederation=E2=80=9D to allow smaller = entities to work together, and progress things perhaps more openly, is = an interesting, if challenging, idea. I would hope that this approach, = if it were taken, would try to address the gaps above in a way that can = give more benefits to users than what current consolidations can: = easier, open endpoints to help securely communicate between devices on = the edge; privacy that doesn=E2=80=99t just prevent snooping on local = network attachments, but provides some guarantees about privacy in the = =E2=80=9Ccloud=E2=80=9D itself; and methods to allow deployment of new = technologies that don=E2=80=99t require large corporate sponsorship. Best, Tommy > On Mar 5, 2018, at 2:22 PM, Jari Arkko wrote: >=20 >=20 > One of the topics we=E2=80=99ve discussed recently at the IAB are > consolidation trends in various Internet services, and how > architecture be affected by those trends or vice versa. And > whether there might be IETF work that would be useful > due to all this. >=20 > Here=E2=80=99s a blog article on this topic: >=20 > https://www.ietf.org/blog/consolidation/ = >=20 > Thoughts? >=20 > One good location for discussion of this topic would be > the architecture-discuss list >=20 > Jari Arkko for the IAB >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss --Boundary_(ID_dPfLYO56RlTSJQWN6z+JBg) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Jari,

Thanks for posting this! It=E2=80=99s very interesting area = of discussion, and one that=E2=80=99s worth more thought.

Reading the article, I = am drawn to the question of why it is so difficult to deploy interaction = models on the Internet that don=E2=80=99t involve one of the = consolidated hubs. There are certainly factors of economics and scale = that make it more practical for large private consolidations to provide = high-quality services, but there are deeper technical problems that the = non-consolidated approach can=E2=80=99t solve with today=E2=80=99s = protocols.

Large= web services make a lot of sense to be offered through a single entry = point into a consolidated set of services. The economies of scale make = sense. However, it=E2=80=99s also increasingly common that in order to = interact with local and home network devices and peer devices, we = communicate via the same consolidated services in the =E2=80=9Ccloud". = Similarly, it=E2=80=99s easier to safely deploy a stable and secure = small service as part of a consolidated entity.

If the IETF wanted to make it easier = for solutions to not need to use the large consolidated solutions, what = gaps would need to be addressed?

- Attacks such as = Denial-of-Service (as mentioned in the article)

- Accessibility: If a = user needs to go back and access their home network, or a friend=E2=80=99s= device, what is the general solution without going through the cloud = service offered by the IoT devices/social network? If everyone can get = back to their homes without NATs, etc, what other attacks might they be = vulnerable to?

-= Privacy: While sending all of my traffic through a consolidated service = may allow the service to track what I do, at least I=E2=80=99m able to = avoid the known dangers on the open network that allow arbitrary = snoopers to see what DNS queries I=E2=80=99m doing, what small services = I connect to, etc. Consolidation acts as a better-than-nothing privacy = measure, as long as you don=E2=80=99t mind trusting the consolidated = entity. Until we have better standard privacy-enabling protocols that = don=E2=80=99t require obfuscation through one big link, this will be = hard to change.

- Protocol ossification: On my local home network, I can = install and deploy new networking techniques; in a network behind one of = these =E2=80=9Cconsolidated=E2=80=9D services, there can also be new = techniques deployed. However, the open Internet between these is = definitely less tolerant to non-vanilla traffic. So, if someone wants to = deploy a networking service that has anything novel about it, it=E2=80=99s= best to spend as little time as possible on the open Internet, and = quickly get back to the consolidated network. And, if the link between = the user and the =E2=80=9Ccloud=E2=80=9D needs to be as standard as = possible to work well, it=E2=80=99s easier for a few entities to perfect = that link and fight the battles for new technologies rather than = requiring individuals or small entities to handle that.

The idea of proposing = =E2=80=9Cfederation=E2=80=9D to allow smaller entities to work together, = and progress things perhaps more openly, is an interesting, if = challenging, idea. I would hope that this approach, if it were taken, = would try to address the gaps above in a way that can give more benefits = to users than what current consolidations can: easier, open endpoints to = help securely communicate between devices on the edge; privacy that = doesn=E2=80=99t just prevent snooping on local network attachments, but = provides some guarantees about privacy in the =E2=80=9Ccloud=E2=80=9D = itself; and methods to allow deployment of new technologies that don=E2=80= =99t require large corporate sponsorship.

Best,
Tommy


On Mar 5, 2018, at 2:22 PM, = Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net> wrote:


One of the topics we=E2=80=99ve discussed recently at the IAB = are
consolidation trends in various Internet = services, and how
architecture be affected by those = trends or vice versa. And
whether there might be = IETF work that would be useful
due to all = this.

Here=E2=80= =99s a blog article on this topic:

https://www.ietf.org/blog/consolidation/
Thoughts?

One good location for discussion of = this topic would be
the architecture-discuss = list

Jari = Arkko for the IAB

_________________________________= ______________
Architecture-discuss mailing list
Architecture-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss

= --Boundary_(ID_dPfLYO56RlTSJQWN6z+JBg)-- From nobody Tue Mar 6 10:42:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06251129C6B for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 10:42:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3k24B7Z9WdRX for ; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 10:42:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf0-x22c.google.com (mail-pf0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BB707124234 for ; 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Tue, 06 Mar 2018 10:42:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.31.79.117] ([96.72.181.209]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u18sm30015391pfm.48.2018.03.06.10.42.04 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 06 Mar 2018 10:42:04 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.2 \(3445.5.20\)) From: Dino Farinacci In-Reply-To: <4321e02f-e24a-379b-a901-3b3366eae733@digitaldissidents.org> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2018 10:42:03 -0800 Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <382E8FE9-64DB-47B4-9CCD-C041E37A080A@gmail.com> References: <3FF8C38C-9C88-4034-AD21-9812CED63BC8@piuha.net> <618701B8-B1FC-48DC-9FB4-7DD5B739F928@tony.li> <14E11A36-8DE4-4F8B-9210-6ED83EFBB0CE@cisco.com> <4321e02f-e24a-379b-a901-3b3366eae733@digitaldissidents.org> To: Niels ten Oever X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.5.20) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] consolidation X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2018 18:42:07 -0000 > In short, I applaud the IAB for bringing up this issue for discussion, > because market concentration undermines the very distributed nature of > the Internet. +1 Dino From nobody Tue Mar 6 13:47:22 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A364112D95B for ; 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06 Mar 2018 21:47:12 +0000 Received: from [10.61.99.226] (dhcp-10-61-99-226.cisco.com [10.61.99.226]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w26LlBKh007327; Tue, 6 Mar 2018 21:47:11 GMT To: Jari Arkko , architecture-discuss@ietf.org References: <3FF8C38C-9C88-4034-AD21-9812CED63BC8@piuha.net> From: Eliot Lear Message-ID: <15098028-7b24-ba9d-b8d5-e4f56ac032f3@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2018 22:47:11 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="TqSwideeqtVoO6CKqcbWwLc8JsLubaEG4" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] consolidation X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2018 21:47:21 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --TqSwideeqtVoO6CKqcbWwLc8JsLubaEG4 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Kt5Ibcg8NDhiCi4ne8d0O6XnoFkctP4lF"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Jari Arkko , architecture-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <15098028-7b24-ba9d-b8d5-e4f56ac032f3@cisco.com> Subject: Re: [arch-d] consolidation References: <3FF8C38C-9C88-4034-AD21-9812CED63BC8@piuha.net> In-Reply-To: --Kt5Ibcg8NDhiCi4ne8d0O6XnoFkctP4lF Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------281E0FE0979412C445EC28B5" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------281E0FE0979412C445EC28B5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jari, Good topic.=C2=A0 I remember mnot raising this concern way back during th= e Bruce Schneier IAB plenary.=C2=A0 Glad you guys are taking it forward for= discussion. I have one question and a comment or three: > Changes in business landscape may also affect standards work and > processes. Small sets of significant players can drive standards work > faster, but at the same time the larger entities are not as dependent > on standardised solutions as smaller ones would be.=C2=A0 I don't fully understand how the first sentence ties to the second.=C2=A0= I think a good example of how all of this is playing out right in front of our very eyes is Github.=C2=A0 Sure, they used web standards, but their exported tool set isn't standardized through anyone.=C2=A0 In a way, Open= Source has been disruptive to standards, and so has the Apps model on devices.=C2=A0 These sort of platform-related concepts have long been explored.=C2=A0 Rebecca Henderson (now at Harvard) used to give great talks on it.=C2=A0 = The IAB might want to consider having a conversation with her, if she'd agree= =2E Eliot On 05.03.18 23:22, Jari Arkko wrote: > > One of the topics we=E2=80=99ve discussed recently at the IAB are > consolidation trends in various Internet services, and how > architecture be affected by those trends or vice versa. And > whether there might be IETF work that would be useful > due to all this. > > Here=E2=80=99s a blog article on this topic: > > https://www.ietf.org/blog/consolidation/ > > Thoughts? > > One good location for discussion of this topic would be > the architecture-discuss list > > Jari Arkko for the IAB > > > > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss --------------281E0FE0979412C445EC28B5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Jari,

Good topic.=C2=A0 I remember mnot raising this concern way back du= ring the Bruce Schneier IAB plenary.=C2=A0 Glad you guys are taking it forward for discussion.

I have one question and a comment or three:

Changes in business landscape may also affect standards work and processes. Small sets of significant players can drive standards work faster, but at the same time the larger entities are not as dependent on standardised solutions as smaller ones would be.=C2=A0
I don't fully understand how the first sentence ties to the second.=C2=A0 I think a good example of how all of this is playing = out right in front of our very eyes is Github.=C2=A0 Sure, they used we= b standards, but their exported tool set isn't standardized through anyone.=C2=A0 In a way, Open Source has been disruptive to standard= s, and so has the Apps model on devices.=C2=A0

These sort of platform-related concepts have long been explored.=C2= =A0 Rebecca Henderson (now at Harvard) used to give great talks on it.=C2=A0 The IAB might want to consider having a conversation with= her, if she'd agree.

Eliot

On 05.03.18 23:22, Jari Arkko wrote:

One of the topics we=E2=80=99ve discussed rec= ently at the IAB are
consolidation trends in various Internet services, and how
architecture be affected by those trends or vice versa. And
whether there might be IETF work that would b= e useful
due to all this.

Here=E2=80=99s a blog article on this topic:<= /div>

https://www.ietf.org/blog/consolid= ation/

Thoughts?

One good location for discussion of this topi= c would be
the architecture-discuss list

Jari Arkko for the IAB



_______________________________________________
Architecture-discuss mailing list
Architecture-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/archi=
tecture-discuss

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The business consolidation seems less in scope than the changing landscape of some changes what I see as fundamental assumptions about the structure of traffic and different actors. People here could probably speak better to it than I could but it seems a tacit assumption of the Internet is relatively well-distributed set of endpoints with relatively symmetric traffic sent and received. There are lots of cases where aspects of standards are functionally foreclosed by the marketplace. If there's little or no demand for a given feature, what's the point of expending resources to implement and maintain it. Geoff Huston for instance has been making some interesting presentations which I think are in this vein for about 18 months or so (ex. one at NANOG https://www.nanog.org/meetings/abstract?id=2948). One assertion is that the Internet was modeled on the phone network of any-to-any reachability, etc. which is not really the way things are these days, for better or worse. Let's keep the discussion going... Tony On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 9:49 AM, Hector Santos wrote: > On 3/5/2018 5:58 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >> >> What he said. Consolidation is a certainty as a market matures, and >> presumably the market for Internet transit is about ready to be deemed >> mature. But I think there's another big trend: a much more fuzzy edge. Call >> it IoT or whatever you want, if the edge expands from a few billion to a >> few hundred billion nodes, there will be a considerable effect on protocols >> and practices. I'm beginning to think that's what the IETF must prepare >> for, to avoid becoming a legacy SDO. >> >> Brian >> > > Consolidation/Centralization, we been through these cycles before where we > end up decentralizing again in some fashion, so I tend to agree with you. > In fact, my products future somewhat depends on it. Communications at the > private/local network levels is still desirable and even though it may save > people some money (and hardware headaches), I'm hearing more and more > discontent with the concept of the "cloud" and the lost of control to the > 3rd party. Just consider the smart TVs becoming the new PCs. Once the > consumer can do more with it, i.e. programmability, install stuff and run > stuff, keep things "more private," things will change. But I do agree that > the concept of centralized comm (whether thru consolidation) is here to > stay. Security and Licensing control issues apply. However, that doesn't > mean "COLT" Communications Of Localized Things" will not happen as well. > > -- > HLS > > > > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > --001a11441beafd85330566d55570 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm glad that the IAB is taking up the topic= of a changing Internet.
The business consolidation seems less in = scope than the changing landscape of some changes what I see as fundamental= assumptions about the structure of traffic and different actors.
=
People here could probably speak better to it than I could but it seem= s a tacit assumption of the Internet is relatively well-distributed set of = endpoints with relatively symmetric traffic sent and received.=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
There are lots of cases where aspects of standards are functionally for= eclosed by the marketplace. If there's little or no demand for a given = feature, what's the point of expending resources to implement and maint= ain it.
Geoff Huston for instance has been making some intere= sting presentations which I think are in this vein for about 18 months or s= o (ex. one at NANOG https://www.nanog.org/meetings/abstract?id=3D2948). One assert= ion is that the Internet was modeled on the phone network of any-to-any rea= chability, etc. which is not really the way things are these days, for bett= er or worse.

Let's keep the discussion going...
Tony

On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 9:49 AM, Hector Santos <hsantos@isd= g.net> wrote:
On 3/5/2018 5:58 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:

What he said. Consolidation is a certainty as a market matures, and presuma= bly the market for Internet transit is about ready to be deemed mature. But= I think there's another big trend: a much more fuzzy edge. Call it IoT= or whatever you want, if the edge expands from a few billion to a few hund= red billion nodes, there will be a considerable effect on protocols and pra= ctices. I'm beginning to think that's what the IETF must prepare fo= r, to avoid becoming a legacy SDO.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian

 Consolidation/Centralization, we been through these cycles before where we = end up decentralizing again in some fashion, so I tend to agree with you. I= n fact, my products future somewhat depends on it. Communications at the pr= ivate/local network levels is still desirable and even though it may save p= eople some money (and hardware headaches), I'm hearing more and more di= scontent with the concept of the "cloud" and the lost of control = to the 3rd party.=C2=A0 Just consider the smart TVs becoming the new PCs. O= nce the consumer can do more with it, i.e. programmability, install stuff a= nd run stuff, keep things "more private," things will change.=C2= =A0 But I do agree that the concept of centralized comm (whether thru conso= lidation) is here to stay. Security and Licensing control issues apply. How= ever, that doesn't mean "COLT" Communications Of Localized Th= ings" will not happen as well.

--
HLS



_______________________________________________
Architecture-discuss mailing list
Architec= ture-discuss@ietf.org
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Thats = true Tony, and I said much the same to the IAB in a tech chat in = December. There is little doubt that the bulk traffic volume is = streamers using localised content caching and last mile delivery. It = seems that long haul transit is not as valued any more and most of the = money in networks is no longer carrying users through the network to = access services, but in spanning CDNs that bring content to users. This = is reflected in a number of ways: the ownership of new undersea cable = projects is a good indicator, and perhaps indirectly, the bit rot that = is affecting the default free BGP space (most ISPs don;t have all routes = any more, which is an unwelcome development, but, more critically, most = ISPs don't seem to care about what they are missing. I suspect that the = money is just not there to justify taking corrective = measures.).

It seems that we are building lots of CDN =E2=80=98serv= ice cones=E2=80=9D and the interconnection between them is private CDN = feeder networks, not the public Internet. If we contine down this path = it raises the serious question of what exactly is a =E2=80=9Cpublic=E2=80=9D= address and what is a public domain name?

You could call is = =E2=80=9Cconsolidation=E2=80=9D, you could call it =E2=80=9Cprivatisation=E2= =80=9D - there are many ways to look at this, but the basic observation = is that the content folk have corralled the bulk of the inherent value = in the network and are using their investment capability to selectively = build infrastructure that servers their particular interests. I am = trying to be careful to label this =E2=80=9Cgood" or =E2=80=9Cbad=E2=80=9D= - I=E2=80=99m not so nostalgic that I want to return to massive = trans-oceanic delays and the current world of services works far better = for me than previous incarnations. But I am trying to say that the model = of what the Internet is today, namely a set of sparsely connected CDN = service cones, is far away from the template we originally = imagined

Geoff


On 8 Mar = 2018, at 3:48 am, Tony Tauber <ttauber@1-4-5.net> = wrote:

I'm glad that the IAB is taking up the topic of a changing = Internet.
The business consolidation seems less in scope than the = changing landscape of some changes what I see as fundamental assumptions = about the structure of traffic and different actors.
People here = could probably speak better to it than I could but it seems a tacit = assumption of the Internet is relatively well-distributed set of = endpoints with relatively symmetric traffic sent and received. =   
There are lots of cases where aspects of standards are = functionally foreclosed by the marketplace. If there's little or no = demand for a given feature, what's the point of expending resources to = implement and maintain it.
Geoff Huston for instance has been making = some interesting presentations which I think are in this vein for about = 18 months or so (ex. one at NANOG = https://www.nanog.org/meetings/abstract?id=3D2948). One assertion is = that the Internet was modeled on the phone network of any-to-any = reachability, etc. which is not really the way things are these days, = for better or worse.

Let's keep the discussion = going...


= From nobody Thu Mar 8 11:09:21 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9DD6127342 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 11:09:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id botM0MzLwgtB for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 11:09:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl0-x22b.google.com (mail-pl0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 580FA127076 for ; Thu, 8 Mar 2018 11:09:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id w12-v6so3848526plp.4 for ; Thu, 08 Mar 2018 11:09:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Th36ebxlH87X32dCHydrGL+hoYEUYUUeunemjORfoEY=; b=eW/Rjt+6oRz1r9AfbsjkRVkDIpwULHFquNDHjNO3LJkOCb4hdsHzUuKp8fv57hGKwS vK+qd+vndLw12vvOplZtmlU1RJ0d6u3hmMYk3J+RlrDoqzcrK2dVSZiAwY2CH4T9djiw bgoplGjNOK2DxO9NtVs89XxPyZB5Zi4stiyCUIUwPmzn/G8Q1kh+/rY+r2InVfbggELY m65R/6dGFewKCOMyHWCip1LPExA422ItTA8mNAZgsbYKai9mOb/nyZLQcrHL9rS+X+9D e3EyH6LXalYLh3Ab+On3qh774JbJEg6IsQ28JJ6mYYsDPQHgNOGqcV5mW+VEBje1kKD9 4uRA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Th36ebxlH87X32dCHydrGL+hoYEUYUUeunemjORfoEY=; b=d81j3QvI9+ke35UAo+tgRo2vr/91dXSSC9iYVql1mEhhtPFBIecQiAlvH+U5Dpt/4x PLlqsTM5bCpLU+jJQ86LD/peWx47/r/Pq6omssYgzcBfVg1mXr3ZBqO+oNp6MHWsDmaU rgkVr8e6pz7M4xm6A659uy7T0KSWWDT63DvbpPF3TGfWuYLeX8EG8NPbboAS8S482pHp suQqX2FYZzOjV7S5rgpE07c/RZAnZPxpbfj92OPp3kWoo7LEN2BRf/NPj9bhhkqhY1wX w5EVPkefrg5b/avtDuUBLc4rOBiySkhDRc1iA+0wRP1hnrMYu7x0ztuOxK3tXez9xBgb qmhQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7G9RmXASCr/ePeYCw3+2OIYqn/0Tj5TIL97xKpFy1ww/5yFRrw3 KV/xa+1AO5FEM0Lp/6pRWnhKAFPa X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELstSdU02EFXKnTasCGVrHpDqIgbFOJLuyzzoEN+wTiOrDqWX+IVK/abk5wCpZttz7IdbSVuVg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:6bc9:: with SMTP id m9-v6mr19723602plt.421.1520536157682; Thu, 08 Mar 2018 11:09:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.30] (243.129.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.129.243]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h10sm26669468pgf.19.2018.03.08.11.09.15 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 08 Mar 2018 11:09:16 -0800 (PST) Sender: Brian Carpenter To: Josh Howlett , Jari Arkko , architecture-discuss@ietf.org References: <3FF8C38C-9C88-4034-AD21-9812CED63BC8@piuha.net> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <34296d6c-387f-eda1-e7c2-1abf61b9c399@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 08:09:19 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] consolidation X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2018 19:09:20 -0000 Switching to the architecture list... On 09/03/2018 04:00, Josh Howlett wrote: ... > Other drivers for federation include sovereignty and compliance, which stem from political or legal considerations. Given the increasingly global character of governance and regulation (e.g., the extraterritoriality of the GDPR), I suspect that we will see an increasingly homogenous environment. Really? I don't. I think we will see increasing diversity in legal constraints and requirements for trans-border data flow, for example with privacy-sensitive rule-of-law countries having very different rules from more authoritarian ones. Attempts at extra-territorial laws will only succeed up to a point. > I would argue that this is a positive development, as federation within a heterogenous environment tends to increases costs and complexity, and reduces the capabilities of the entire system to that supported by the lowest common denominator. Yes. IMHO the "open Internet" is by its nature forced to be a lowest common denominator, and for that reason it is already becoming less important (e.g., see Geoff Huston's recent comment at https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/architecture-discuss/D2d4lfIP2lHF8K5z7VYF_6rsUvs ). > To that end, I think an argument could be made that the internet architecture needs to a greater extent with the regulatory environment (and ideally take a lead in helping to define that, rather than follow with heels dragging), as that both facilitates federation and reduces compliance costs for users. We certainly have to design for the real world, but that means designing for a varied and rather unpredictable regulatory environment. 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architecture-discuss@ietf.org Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 02:18:01 +0000 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3F6BDDCF-7DD8-49CD-B7B6-44F76613D4CA@apnic.net> References: <3FF8C38C-9C88-4034-AD21-9812CED63BC8@piuha.net> <618701B8-B1FC-48DC-9FB4-7DD5B739F928@tony.li> <5A9EAA6F.7090001@isdg.net> <3F6BDDCF-7DD8-49CD-B7B6-44F76613D4CA@apnic.net> Reply-To: "ian.peter@ianpeter.com" User-Agent: eM_Client/7.1.32088.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------=_MB26E4A0A2-CCE4-49B9-8221-3A6382F144F2" X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - node171.myfcloud.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - ianpeter.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: node171.myfcloud.com: authenticated_id: ian.peter@ianpeter.com X-Authenticated-Sender: node171.myfcloud.com: ian.peter@ianpeter.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] consolidation X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 02:18:17 -0000 --------=_MB26E4A0A2-CCE4-49B9-8221-3A6382F144F2 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry to be so late responding here - but I am glad this topic has been=20 raised and it would be a great pity if there was no way those gathered=20 here could influence the course of events. I think one thing is clear - there does not appear to be a technical=20 solution to the consolidation problem. However, I don't think that means=20 that there is no role whatsoever for IAB and the technical community. What happened with old media as consolidation occurred is that national=20 regulation occurred in different ways in many countries - with varying=20 degrees of effectiveness. However, such regulation on a national basis=20 is not effective in the case of the Internet - which requires a=20 different sort of regulation which is not based on nation states acting=20 unilaterally with differing approaches. The problem is - there is no body capable of achieving this necessary=20 regulation - and the prevailing attitude of dominant nation states to=20 the dominating corporate players is "give us access to your data, and we=20 won't regulate you" (I realise that the EU Data Directive is an=20 exception to this in some ways). What is lacking in the internet field is a governance achitecture - and=20 I am wondering if it totally outside of the remit of an Internet=20 Architecture Board to outline a governance architecture? (or at least to=20 be involved in its development) A governance architecture would be a useful thing to have, and could be=20 used to consolidate the theory of multistakeholder collaboration. It=20 could be very useful in a number of different fields, and I think there=20 is an opportunity for IAB to play a positive role here is outlining a=20 useful proposal and approach. I am interested in what others think about=20 this. Just a thought. Ian Peter ------ Original Message ------ From: "Geoff Huston" To: "Tony Tauber" Cc: "Hector Santos" ; architecture-discuss@ietf.org Sent: 8/03/2018 9:00:19 AM Subject: Re: [arch-d] consolidation >Thats true Tony, and I said much the same to the IAB in a tech chat in=20 >December. There is little doubt that the bulk traffic volume is=20 >streamers using localised content caching and last mile delivery. It=20 >seems that long haul transit is not as valued any more and most of the=20 >money in networks is no longer carrying users through the network to=20 >access services, but in spanning CDNs that bring content to users. This=20 >is reflected in a number of ways: the ownership of new undersea cable=20 >projects is a good indicator, and perhaps indirectly, the bit rot that=20 >is affecting the default free BGP space (most ISPs don;t have all=20 >routes any more, which is an unwelcome development, but, more=20 >critically, most ISPs don't seem to care about what they are missing. I=20 >suspect that the money is just not there to justify taking corrective=20 >measures.). > >It seems that we are building lots of CDN =E2=80=98service cones=E2=80=9D= and the=20 >interconnection between them is private CDN feeder networks, not the=20 >public Internet. If we contine down this path it raises the serious=20 >question of what exactly is a =E2=80=9Cpublic=E2=80=9D address and what is = a public=20 >domain name? > >You could call is =E2=80=9Cconsolidation=E2=80=9D, you could call it =E2= =80=9Cprivatisation=E2=80=9D -=20 >there are many ways to look at this, but the basic observation is that=20 >the content folk have corralled the bulk of the inherent value in the=20 >network and are using their investment capability to selectively build=20 >infrastructure that servers their particular interests. I am trying to=20 >be careful to label this =E2=80=9Cgood" or =E2=80=9Cbad=E2=80=9D - I=E2=80= =99m not so nostalgic that I=20 >want to return to massive trans-oceanic delays and the current world of=20 >services works far better for me than previous incarnations. But I am=20 >trying to say that the model of what the Internet is today, namely a=20 >set of sparsely connected CDN service cones, is far away from the=20 >template we originally imagined > >Geoff > > >>On 8 Mar 2018, at 3:48 am, Tony Tauber wrote: >> >>I'm glad that the IAB is taking up the topic of a changing Internet. >>The business consolidation seems less in scope than the changing=20 >>landscape of some changes what I see as fundamental assumptions about=20 >>the structure of traffic and different actors. >>People here could probably speak better to it than I could but it=20 >>seems a tacit assumption of the Internet is relatively=20 >>well-distributed set of endpoints with relatively symmetric traffic=20 >>sent and received. >>There are lots of cases where aspects of standards are functionally=20 >>foreclosed by the marketplace. If there's little or no demand for a=20 >>given feature, what's the point of expending resources to implement=20 >>and maintain it. >>Geoff Huston for instance has been making some interesting=20 >>presentations which I think are in this vein for about 18 months or so=20 >>(ex. one at NANOG https://www.nanog.org/meetings/abstract?id=3D2948).=20 >>One assertion is that the Internet was modeled on the phone network of=20 >>any-to-any reachability, etc. which is not really the way things are=20 >>these days, for better or worse. >> >>Let's keep the discussion going... >> > --------=_MB26E4A0A2-CCE4-49B9-8221-3A6382F144F2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry to be so late responding here - but I am glad this topic has been r= aised and it would be a great pity if there was no way those gathered here= could influence the course of events.

I think on= e thing is clear - there does not appear to be a technical solution to the= consolidation problem. However, I don't think that means that there is no r= ole whatsoever for IAB and the technical community.

<= div>What happened with old media as consolidation occurred is that national = regulation occurred in different ways in many countries - with varying deg= rees of effectiveness. However, such regulation on a national basis is not= effective in the case of the Internet - which requires a different sort of= regulation which is not based on nation states acting unilaterally with dif= fering approaches.

The problem is - there is no= body capable of achieving this necessary regulation - and the prevailing at= titude of dominant nation states to the dominating corporate players is "gi= ve us access to your data, and we won't regulate you" =C2=A0(I realise that = the EU Data Directive is an exception to this in some ways).

What is lacking in the internet field is a governance achitec= ture - and I am wondering if it totally outside of the remit of an Internet = Architecture Board to outline a governance architecture? (or at least to b= e involved in its development)

A governance arch= itecture would be a useful thing to have, and could be used to consolidate= the theory of multistakeholder collaboration. It could be very useful in a= number of different fields, and I think there is an opportunity for IAB to= play a positive role here is outlining a useful proposal and approach. I am = interested in what others think about this.

Jus= t a thought.

Ian Peter

------ Original Message ------
From: "Geoff Huston" <gih@apnic.ne= t>
To: "Tony Tauber" <ttauber@1-4= -5.net>
Sent: 8/03/2018 9:00:19 AM
Subject: Re: [arch-d] consolidation

Thats true Tony, and I said much the same = to the IAB in a tech chat in December. There is little doubt that the bulk = traffic volume is streamers using localised content caching and last mile= delivery. It seems that long haul transit is not as valued any more and mos= t of the money in networks is no longer carrying users through the network= to access services, but in spanning CDNs that bring content to users. This= is reflected in a number of ways: the ownership of new undersea cable proje= cts is a good indicator, and perhaps indirectly, the bit rot that is affect= ing the default free BGP space (most ISPs don;t have all routes any more, w= hich is an unwelcome development, but, more critically, most ISPs don't see= m to care about what they are missing. I suspect that the money is just not = there to justify taking corrective measures.).

It seems that we = are building lots of CDN =E2=80=98service cones=E2=80=9D and the interconn= ection between them is private CDN feeder networks, not the public Internet= . If we contine down this path it raises the serious question of what exact= ly is a =E2=80=9Cpublic=E2=80=9D address and what is a public domain name?<= br />
You could call is =E2=80=9Cconsolidation=E2=80=9D, you could cal= l it =E2=80=9Cprivatisation=E2=80=9D - there are many ways to look at this, = but the basic observation is that the content folk have corralled the bulk = of the inherent value in the network and are using their investment capabi= lity to selectively build infrastructure that servers their particular inte= rests. I am trying to be careful to label this =E2=80=9Cgood" or =E2=80=9Cb= ad=E2=80=9D - I=E2=80=99m not so nostalgic that I want to return to massive = trans-oceanic delays and the current world of services works far better fo= r me than previous incarnations. But I am trying to say that the model of w= hat the Internet is today, namely a set of sparsely connected CDN service c= ones, is far away from the template we originally imagined

Geoff=


On 8 Mar 2018, a= t 3:48 am, Tony Tauber <ttauber@1-4= -5.net> wrote:

I'm glad that the IAB is taking up the top= ic of a changing Internet.
The business consolidation seems less in sc= ope than the changing landscape of some changes what I see as fundamental a= ssumptions about the structure of traffic and different actors.
People = here could probably speak better to it than I could but it seems a tacit a= ssumption of the Internet is relatively well-distributed set of endpoints w= ith relatively symmetric traffic sent and received. =C2=A0=C2=A0
There = are lots of cases where aspects of standards are functionally foreclosed b= y the marketplace. If there's little or no demand for a given feature, what= 's the point of expending resources to implement and maintain it.
Geof= f Huston for instance has been making some interesting presentations which= I think are in this vein for about 18 months or so (ex. one at NANOG https://www.nanog.o= rg/meetings/abstract?id=3D2948). One assertion is that the Internet was = modeled on the phone network of any-to-any reachability, etc. which is not = really the way things are these days, for better or worse.

Let'= s keep the discussion going...


--------=_MB26E4A0A2-CCE4-49B9-8221-3A6382F144F2-- From nobody Sun Mar 18 23:33:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D00EF1242F7 for ; Sun, 18 Mar 2018 23:33:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=isoc.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HQpD-1fTIKik for ; Sun, 18 Mar 2018 23:33:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NAM02-BL2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2nam02on0083.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.38.83]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 01A00126B6D for ; 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boundary="Apple-Mail=_01E85F4E-74EA-4C9C-9A2F-64AF95B4C371"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: isoc.org X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: e5bbe67b-ad75-4b83-74f9-08d58d634ed7 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 19 Mar 2018 06:33:20.3533 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 89f84dfb-7285-4810-bc4d-8b9b5794554f X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR06MB4153 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] consolidation X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 06:33:29 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_01E85F4E-74EA-4C9C-9A2F-64AF95B4C371 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B17E7937-B726-4389-A8C5-24EE107DDEA2" --Apple-Mail=_B17E7937-B726-4389-A8C5-24EE107DDEA2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I, too, am very pleased to see the IAB taking up the topic of = consolidation / centralization as it has been one of great concern for = me as I've watched the evolution of the Internet's architecture, = particularly over the last decade. I have a number of thoughts to share = in another note, but I wanted to respond to something Geoff wrote: ------ Original Message ------ From: "Geoff Huston" > > But I am trying to say that the model of what the Internet is today, = namely a set of sparsely connected CDN service cones, is far away from = the template we originally imagined The rise of CDNs and other similar overlay networks is definitely not = well understood outside the circles of those of us involved with = Internet technologies and issues. Many people I speak with still have = this idea that when they connect to a company's content (website, video, = etc.) they are actually connecting to the company's own servers, not = realizing that this whole layer of CDNs now exist. Users are very = seldom interacting directly with the company's servers.[1] Usually they = are connecting to edge servers of whatever CDN the company is using. I'm not sure yet that there are technical actions here, but I do think = it would be worth exploring how to help a wider range of Internet users = understand more about how the underlying architecture of the Internet = has evolved. Some of those users are people seeking to make policies or = regulations. Some of them are people seeking to develop new solutions. = Helping them understand more could be useful. Perhaps through some = documents or papers or articles... not sure of the exact mechanisms. I = just know that others out there don't understand that the mental model = they are using for "the Internet" is no longer an accurate = representation. My 2 cents, Dan P.S. I noticed a recent blog post from Comcast [2] that was talking = about the need for a "network of networks" - but it was actually talking = about the value of using multiple CDNs to deliver content. Which is, = indeed, taking "network of networks" to an even larger scale when you = are talking about having a network of already-massive networks. [1] Unless, of course, the company owns the CDN, too. [2] = https://www.comcasttechnologysolutions.com/blog/content-delivery-network-n= etworks --Apple-Mail=_B17E7937-B726-4389-A8C5-24EE107DDEA2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii I, = too, am very pleased to see the IAB taking up the topic of consolidation = / centralization as it has been one of great concern for me as I've = watched the evolution of the Internet's architecture, particularly over = the last decade. I have a number of thoughts to share in another note, = but I wanted to respond to something Geoff wrote:

------ Original Message = ------
From: "Geoff Huston" <gih@apnic.net>
But I am trying to = say that the model of what the Internet is today, namely a set of = sparsely connected CDN service cones, is far away from the template we = originally imagined

The rise of CDNs and other similar overlay networks is = definitely not well understood outside the circles of those of us = involved with Internet technologies and issues. Many people I speak with = still have this idea that when they connect to a company's content = (website, video, etc.) they are actually connecting to the company's own = servers, not realizing that this whole layer of CDNs now exist. =  Users are very seldom interacting directly with the company's = servers.[1] Usually they are connecting to edge servers of whatever CDN = the company is using.

I'm not sure yet that there are technical actions here, but I = do think it would be worth exploring how to help a wider range of = Internet users understand more about how the underlying architecture of = the Internet has evolved. Some of those users are people seeking to make = policies or regulations. Some of them are people seeking to develop new = solutions. Helping them understand more could be useful. Perhaps through = some documents or papers or articles... not sure of the exact = mechanisms. I just know that others out there don't understand that the = mental model they are using for "the Internet" is no longer an accurate = representation.

My 2 cents,
Dan

P.S. I noticed a recent blog post from = Comcast [2] that was talking about the need for a "network of networks" = - but it was actually talking about the value of using multiple CDNs to = deliver content. Which is, indeed, taking "network of networks" to an = even larger scale when you are talking about having a network of = already-massive networks.

[1] Unless, of course, = the company owns the CDN, too.
[2] https://www.comcasttechnologysolutions.com/blog/content-deliver= y-network-networks


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architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EBB7124207 for ; Tue, 20 Mar 2018 00:30:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=icloud.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z82Tj0JSwmvQ for ; Tue, 20 Mar 2018 00:30:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mr90p54im-ztdg04142001.me.com (mr90p54im-ztdg04142001.me.com [17.120.66.146]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com 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mr90p54im-ztdg04142001.me.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.1.2.20170607 64bit (built Jun 7 2017)) with ESMTPSA id <0P5V005T6OUDV000@mr90p54im-ztdg04142001.me.com>; Tue, 20 Mar 2018 07:30:15 +0000 (GMT) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:,, definitions=2018-03-20_03:,, signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 suspectscore=3 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1707230000 definitions=main-1803200092 From: Greg Skinner Message-id: Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8BAA01DB-2429-4D2C-854A-1672447B782F" MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 00:30:12 -0700 In-reply-to: Cc: Geoff Huston , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" To: Dan York References: <3FF8C38C-9C88-4034-AD21-9812CED63BC8@piuha.net> <618701B8-B1FC-48DC-9FB4-7DD5B739F928@tony.li> <5A9EAA6F.7090001@isdg.net> <3F6BDDCF-7DD8-49CD-B7B6-44F76613D4CA@apnic.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] consolidation X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 07:30:23 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_8BAA01DB-2429-4D2C-854A-1672447B782F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Is this something the ISOC could take up, perhaps by updating the = Internet Ecosystem paper = or something like it with a CDN section? Greg > On Mar 18, 2018, at 11:33 PM, Dan York wrote: >=20 > I, too, am very pleased to see the IAB taking up the topic of = consolidation / centralization as it has been one of great concern for = me as I've watched the evolution of the Internet's architecture, = particularly over the last decade. I have a number of thoughts to share = in another note, but I wanted to respond to something Geoff wrote: >=20 > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "Geoff Huston" > >> But I am trying to say that the model of what the Internet is today, = namely a set of sparsely connected CDN service cones, is far away from = the template we originally imagined >=20 >=20 > The rise of CDNs and other similar overlay networks is definitely not = well understood outside the circles of those of us involved with = Internet technologies and issues. Many people I speak with still have = this idea that when they connect to a company's content (website, video, = etc.) they are actually connecting to the company's own servers, not = realizing that this whole layer of CDNs now exist. Users are very = seldom interacting directly with the company's servers.[1] Usually they = are connecting to edge servers of whatever CDN the company is using. >=20 > I'm not sure yet that there are technical actions here, but I do think = it would be worth exploring how to help a wider range of Internet users = understand more about how the underlying architecture of the Internet = has evolved. Some of those users are people seeking to make policies or = regulations. Some of them are people seeking to develop new solutions. = Helping them understand more could be useful. Perhaps through some = documents or papers or articles... not sure of the exact mechanisms. I = just know that others out there don't understand that the mental model = they are using for "the Internet" is no longer an accurate = representation. >=20 > My 2 cents, > Dan >=20 > P.S. I noticed a recent blog post from Comcast [2] that was talking = about the need for a "network of networks" - but it was actually talking = about the value of using multiple CDNs to deliver content. Which is, = indeed, taking "network of networks" to an even larger scale when you = are talking about having a network of already-massive networks. >=20 > [1] Unless, of course, the company owns the CDN, too. > [2] = https://www.comcasttechnologysolutions.com/blog/content-delivery-network-n= etworks = >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_8BAA01DB-2429-4D2C-854A-1672447B782F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Is this something the ISOC could take up, perhaps by updating = the Internet Ecosystem = paper or something like it with a CDN section?
Greg

On = Mar 18, 2018, at 11:33 PM, Dan York <york@isoc.org> wrote:

I, too, am very = pleased to see the IAB taking up the topic of consolidation / = centralization as it has been one of great concern for me as I've = watched the evolution of the Internet's architecture, particularly over = the last decade. I have a number of thoughts to share in another note, = but I wanted to respond to something Geoff wrote:

------ Original Message = ------
From: "Geoff Huston" <gih@apnic.net>
But I am trying to = say that the model of what the Internet is today, namely a set of = sparsely connected CDN service cones, is far away from the template we = originally imagined

The rise of CDNs and other similar overlay networks is = definitely not well understood outside the circles of those of us = involved with Internet technologies and issues. Many people I speak with = still have this idea that when they connect to a company's content = (website, video, etc.) they are actually connecting to the company's own = servers, not realizing that this whole layer of CDNs now exist. =  Users are very seldom interacting directly with the company's = servers.[1] Usually they are connecting to edge servers of whatever CDN = the company is using.

I'm not sure yet that there are technical actions here, but I = do think it would be worth exploring how to help a wider range of = Internet users understand more about how the underlying architecture of = the Internet has evolved. Some of those users are people seeking to make = policies or regulations. Some of them are people seeking to develop new = solutions. Helping them understand more could be useful. Perhaps through = some documents or papers or articles... not sure of the exact = mechanisms. I just know that others out there don't understand that the = mental model they are using for "the Internet" is no longer an accurate = representation.

My 2 cents,
Dan

P.S. I noticed a recent blog post from = Comcast [2] that was talking about the need for a "network of networks" = - but it was actually talking about the value of using multiple CDNs to = deliver content. Which is, indeed, taking "network of networks" to an = even larger scale when you are talking about having a network of = already-massive networks.

[1] Unless, of course, = the company owns the CDN, too.
[2] https://www.comcasttechnologysolutions.com/blog/content-deliver= y-network-networks



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