From nobody Fri Apr 6 10:00:15 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D76BB12025C; Fri, 6 Apr 2018 10:00:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2dDmvI4ksbAH; Fri, 6 Apr 2018 10:00:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x22f.google.com (mail-wm0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D0C471200C5; Fri, 6 Apr 2018 10:00:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id r82so4583281wme.0; Fri, 06 Apr 2018 10:00:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:mime-version:subject:message-id:date:cc:to; bh=L12QmeFtclCJx5kh0C8xr1hM4XnW/2akLU7dxyA5/pc=; b=ZtrkH7Li+DbPSVlzzhjEk5thbVM8thuYj94hP6n6nm490CNPX5xJfbnZ3t29LZxkyP bvcSAGWVZH3OJcZLryciTvmXw/pV8zKrFwEIN6FPuJyGR+tpJdDMttCmAp6pR9uQiAxQ HIlpyqU2JdiiBjF7q6p/dURhdPu7KE7HbOfKFRXs2eXuQ8MMFOGR+n2fvtuDFsm6m7pV wGIyNstRKYYhhsXpwm3sIWaJ/3yPZzjoiJjGCGte8wRvS6VyVTaxdH72z9WEQIPZuJad jFJZyiV/J9yKlhTr/oUxIAVFNaoUoPN7Rpde23b6gCGqiIhWhbUP9/cAK5xeH3glpTm5 pa1w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:subject:message-id:date:cc:to; bh=L12QmeFtclCJx5kh0C8xr1hM4XnW/2akLU7dxyA5/pc=; b=JCfJ11ahV3r6YTEucDF/PHM1B3S4807vcMdpURiTuLwaNfLA033lYCr2WhttGkT6qh C18nBbhR8iBQ8FlBRyJfNQGRA16PeJlBYPDdQosqC8BWACvBs+ItQoA44MZGnUwe+GeF gzDruYybE2o2G0uqxwiU5yeJEh113ClnbliM/NZZjBIx6nApGMBYp1k6EtorMOD4fmCu fYq9+UlPw/9nIHxLiQbCMBNbTJFdYEo1naqsgiLRVUIlFzXigloVbVm3HNs13PBRUqBt 5Jc8A0rIvXxTHnZsUI/az45/8Kt15NsqRpk2TcET3Sc/ilo4tANpoXCKT0ZIqfL9+ahv wZNQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tCuwnF9WmUH3EgPzv0xrYeHzq252fdI6QpNKi+hrIWnj6tyvwVm l7Azv2b1iNy5bsv70ANsRWXxx+Dt X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx49nzuB5EuxasJKQ2MWQCQkoiHuJF5CIUlDlnJdaGqtGwCjwDwd3VqKcM6qQ4ozMFyQG2rTtWQ== X-Received: by 10.28.241.18 with SMTP id p18mr15355485wmh.40.1523034009005; Fri, 06 Apr 2018 10:00:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:4d01:f3a:194b:6c8d:8d2e:c6f8? ([2601:647:4d01:f3a:194b:6c8d:8d2e:c6f8]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 11sm12866512wmd.1.2018.04.06.10.00.06 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 06 Apr 2018 10:00:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Hinden Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0B37B65A-4471-4B48-9F58-1762F264D614"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2018 10:00:04 -0700 Cc: Bob Hinden , IAB To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] Comments on X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2018 17:00:14 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_0B37B65A-4471-4B48-9F58-1762F264D614 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi, A few comments on . This ranges from = editorial to substantive. Bob ------------ When was this workshop? I could not find a meeting date in the draft. ---- 1.1. Understanding "Bandwidth Optimization" =E2=80=A6. o Prioritisation of interactive traffic over background traffic What do you mean by =E2=80=9Cbackground traffic=E2=80=9D? Customers on = mobile networks don=E2=80=99t consider their email or web browsing as = =E2=80=9Cbackground traffic=E2=80=9D. For that matter, what do you mean = by interactive traffic? Voice? Please clarify. =E2=80=A6 o Business-related topics such as content delivery arrangements with specific content providers. Like practices that violate network neutrality? =E2=80=94=E2=80=94 Quite a typo in: 1.4. Use of Note Well and Charter House Rule The workshop was conducted under the IETF [NOTE_WELL] with the exception of the "Technical Analysis and Response to Potential Regulatory Reaction" session which was conducted under [CHATHAM_HOUSE_RULE]. I assume you mean =E2=80=9CChatham House Rule=E2=80=9D in the section = header. =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 Section 2.1 Scene Setting I don=E2=80=99t think this section did an adequate job describing a = mobile network. For example, my understanding is that mobile networks = the radio part is confined to the edges, the rest of the network is = wired. There isn=E2=80=99t any architectural differences with the wired = part as compared with other ISP networks. I think the report would be = better if it went into more detail about this. The issues are in or = near the radio network. I realize this is a report on a meeting, but there wasn=E2=80=99t any = discussion of the tradeoff so creating smaller cell site to get more = bandwidth and reduced latency. This can also be a solution to some of = the issues discussed here. =E2=80=94=E2=80=94 2.1.2 Encryption Statistics Good to see that encrypted content is reaching around 50%. But as I = noted earlier when was this? What is it today? =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 2.3. Awareness of User Choice (Privacy) =E2=80=A6. If users and content providers are to opt-in to user network management services with negative privacy impacts they should see clear value from using these services, and understand the impacts on clear interfaces. Users should also have easy abilities to opt-out. Some users will always automatically click through consent requests, so any model relying on explicit consent is flawed for these users. Understanding the extent of "auto click through" may help make better decisions for consent requests in the future. One model (Cooperative Traffic Management) works as an agent of the user; by opting-in metadata can be shared. Issues with this involve trust only being applied at endpoints. I note my personal view is that I am fine with providers using me as the = product when I am using a free service (like gmail that I am using to = send this). I strongly dislike my information being used when I pay = for the service. Since mobile operators don=E2=80=99t usually provide a = free service, I don=E2=80=99t think they should be using our data to = make additional money. Enough is enough. This would be a good topic for the IAB to explore. ---------- 3.1. Sending Data Up / Down for Network Management Benefits =E2=80=A6. o Network Status API: An API for operators to share congestion status or the state of a cell before an application starts sending data could allow applications to change their behaviour. So this would be something like giving the hosts a way to understand = what=E2=80=99s going on inside a particular network (or access network)? = Does this scale? This seems to me to be looking at the mobile network = as the center and not just a part of the Internet. Could you clarify = this? =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 7. Suggested Principles and Solutions =E2=80=A6. o CDNs and Caches: placing caches closer to the mobile user or making more intelligent CDNs would result in faster content delivery and less train on the network. Related work includes: Does this mean putting caches closer to the the edge where the radios = are? =E2=80=A6. o One bit for latency / bandwidth trade-off: determining whether using a single bit to distinguish between traffic that the sender prefers to be queued and traffic that the sender would prefer to drop rather than delay provides additional benefits beyond what can be achieved without this signaling. A bit in the IP header? Who=E2=80=99s going to set this bit? Why not = support RFC3514 too and solve all security problems too? =E2=80=94=E2=80=94 8. Since MaRNEW =E2=80=A6.. The most rewarding output of MaRNEW is perhaps the most intangible. MaRNEW gave two rather divergent industry groups the opportunity to connect and discuss common technologies and issues affecting users and operations. Mobile Network providers and key Internet engineers and experts have developed a greater collaborative relationship to aid development of further standards which work across networks in a secure manner. Very good! --Apple-Mail=_0B37B65A-4471-4B48-9F58-1762F264D614 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAlrHp5QACgkQrut0EXfn u6gs9QgAjIuMAL3qs3+WBE3rMiwNvliXBJwWv37GT4Qz3pJc4v9/Wc/LdtTS83eZ xbq+1TlYqWrFKybNlSR8ky75epJ4acU/3gv0pVfJP2hJmsClmrc+AyXPBeJUO8Nr 3lxTJKAOl5O3rdBqLvN+BpS0sBxwyrTICZrtRNTeosQm7jKcJBjHisY1oCnfQMUV xX2/aHy6jXTwI79TdfRb0U4JfQyxv3SI2ShiyGLyuN0zoRCU8V39OjRgbqlzeXOj qkurInxj3tw6eB78Y0YFBY3AQaUQV6BO2HdrK3Hiov9OuvKjNMy2q9CE+B5bAR1W 6y19jofNzjsiumT86PCkss/VDskBgQ== =Ezwg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_0B37B65A-4471-4B48-9F58-1762F264D614-- From nobody Tue Apr 10 15:10:15 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFC4912D7E5 for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2018 15:10:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S3KjmFC6yhxZ for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2018 15:10:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x22a.google.com (mail-wr0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4E95612D7ED for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2018 15:10:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id s12so14248717wrc.8 for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2018 15:10:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=BGY13xFEMzAjqFLd+wSvFRUFgE7i+gfWawXOMMayDec=; b=vaLLECCL/gBQn0Be0yMO33oQ8HA+Qhj/YU3J7OVl1UexwaJE3WC3dSxoJHpcj4CQ+f f9/0RgNoDKXCZC17SDj8k6W/WEijRZ+YJYQ0lIXQLuKCcC6sbO8ZWAP4TproU2jAQcdv Jcdz7GCOyGPGSzvmmnh89qQgghEryb2NBAIv9EIKvV4K8nP6V+XKa6jERoDLfwPcJe0n HFoa0g6vZIjhB9b2zjh5pBqaj7iedCwlc/jKsZi47SZb7e0lYbruYXu9usRRnOeenhN3 YWZM/POwZ4+OSwbqFKqp5e5XniiO+os0FlZkF5byRI5985Tfk/6wESvTztmj36i1e1tX QDiw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=BGY13xFEMzAjqFLd+wSvFRUFgE7i+gfWawXOMMayDec=; b=ZsBxdAc54otMyvV5EErpLobSTErxINZwK5xAk0EufnK9qLLbMsMfw6sOgPDzfiuCDy LAEryr7TDQukpfKS5WlsFxK5RPcevL+y9s8K6W0ur5KF1UK3vquAyejwgvsFcKNvK8pq iGkenV7PPcxEMioIw+SVuj2+0yNQ6EJaQWPUnV4U5v4tlyVwDJnQ4F7cl/nCPOjv2VQw cDkRJP0xRDoUfcJxJIMOit4lIVHn/qv6G8im8M/pi6HSMSJdqZGQwJdSGeq/8KCpdHWo 9BBveerOvjHzioNVxj/N/tsKRl63H1l+rxjWSopuRoJvoBLQvkRYeeIkN6CHLGRA4cAN MbyA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tCYNTs7QYLo7f/RJloXFH7lvW/lyVQpYRiM+Kx5lI29VcRIDuL0 uLUwylBEkhMFmQlddRfKS0/hDg4ybDb75Ab6nIV352z881M= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4+z8yEf5cwklHpGr1ThQmlSZiUIcLND3oQSjfF2B2OZqdb/CoQ6Hq+GnHgkW7YbxZ2Qjs7cd+/nWqtQE8jYdWs= X-Received: by 10.223.170.213 with SMTP id i21mr1616999wrc.10.1523398209140; Tue, 10 Apr 2018 15:10:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.226.76 with HTTP; Tue, 10 Apr 2018 15:09:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <152279331966.23985.3238502800355132103.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <152279331966.23985.3238502800355132103.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Warren Kumari Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2018 18:09:28 -0400 Message-ID: To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org, IAB Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Call for Comment: (IAB Workshop on Managing Radio Networks in an Encrypted World (MaRNEW) Report) X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2018 22:10:14 -0000 I think it would be useful to have the date of the MarNEW workshop near the top of the document (perhaps "The MarNEW workshop (September, 2015) aimed ...") - our tone and understanding of the issues being discussed has changed significantly in the 2 years, 7 months since the workshop happened. The document also talks about things like "From a recent study [Pew2014] 64% of users said..." -- Pew2014 was ~1 year old when the workshop occurred, but it's now 3 years 5 months in the past -- not really "recent" any more. Nits: Abstract: "The MarNEW workshop" MarNEW -> MaRNEW s/understandinf/understanding/ W On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 6:08 PM, IAB Executive Administrative Manager wrote: > This is an announcement of an IETF-wide Call for Comment on > draft-iab-marnew-report-01. > > The document is being considered for publication as an Informational RFC > within the IAB stream, and is available for inspection at: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-marnew-report/ > > The Call for Comment will last until 2018-05-01. Please send comments to > architecture-discuss@ietf.org and iab@iab.org. > > > Abstract > > The MarNEW workshop aimed to discuss solutions for bandwidth > optimisation on mobile networks for encrypted content, as current > solutions rely on unencrypted content which is not indicative of the > security needs of today's Internet users. The workshop gathered IETF > attendees, IAB members and various organisations involved in the > telecommunications industry including original equipment > manufacturers and mobile network operators. > > The group discussed the current Internet encryption trends and > deployment issues identified within the IETF, and the privacy needs > of users which should be adhered. Solutions designed around sharing > data from the network to the endpoints and vice versa were then > discussed as well as analysing whether the current issues experienced > on the transport layer are also playing a role here. Content > providers and CDNs gave an honest view of their experiences delivery > content with mobile network operators. Finally, technical responses > to regulation was discussed to help the regulated industries relay > the issues of impossible to implement or bad-for-privacy technologies > back to regulators. > > A group of suggested solutions were devised which will be discussed > in various IETF groups moving forward. > -- I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf From nobody Wed Apr 11 12:38:30 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6207A129C56; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 12:38:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1tU78wj7xZog; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 12:38:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-x22a.google.com (mail-yw0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 29F4B1271FD; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 12:38:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id q12so953417ywj.0; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 12:38:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=uExDUG8OtqqH5biqc4KOFtLBH5zpVzA8sQF4iEcHfcc=; b=KwMVVL8OZlZnZdI2lybaczqm5w4NZ79vvVJDwV9U4TeBzMNgwZjfpC2tKN6C5lTpjN +Xn4gc3fCjAJ5q05PDrQrgUcExYLGXudGz8sRt5bD0WcvHYk0VjS+povlnZDY5O0u7A9 yW60K55ZVLyJJZ98e0mT6BDWB9TkTCaMPhTP7yuoFjYXbJddVwwb4CTtyuRjInyhfgAJ rwdX4/XSmp59btCib/DNlwdmdu8EgKsfkC5Rgjccj4PCw22Bgol+kXhubAjBbrKnbkXC SDOGZAlp60UgyVTjjU/aphBQ2kCFE2O6MrVeuwGN5ZC/+9dGhkjTGJd42p91gTofAuzJ XULQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=uExDUG8OtqqH5biqc4KOFtLBH5zpVzA8sQF4iEcHfcc=; b=iDmbUYNhGpod+BCUJdDnEtnsucha2hSNAuR0V4bbTGKEjlH9ERuzboHFQYV7unggN4 kRYIeSqdUuyCCmRgku0d3OQJ7slBs2qLQ9ZI7GvwR6Qruyeu03U9qKRzHpN5tbjfu8lX 24LchHAl8IVl/qgsdNjddpf487H4Vy71GXGyiktOofqWqZjK0UgpUeHFgPsSmK/wV328 fo81fb8mxuJ9UhKcpmtaIE1nQLWUB1PRjBM1/Oz0hlTWvthMyskD/WSxVsyfrCAjwcUc q8YDmvnj7empZE7kxTcHwAr8J3ncMAw9mTjzpcDI9lq8F1cc/PuOdeE0ke/q3TCh1g4A LLUg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tBbn6ecw3ONjXBnzkevaz1bXIHNJiWbMxhlHIsSs0Se3XMBk6Id 9Q2T0oCxFM+aSMNl9om8Lg1x2T/L/dB3QHNmh+g= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4/koUTnQdY1Tm8woB6qUs4Nmy8sacBbHEeWMAoUNpenevzz610OtWMnhqCGDLuICftAZDVqoxycewMYhuLh75E= X-Received: by 10.13.214.13 with SMTP id y13mr2643875ywd.467.1523475504160; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 12:38:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a25:7cc1:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 12:38:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 14:38:23 -0500 Message-ID: To: Bob Hinden Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org, IAB Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c0769143fe4c1056997c81e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Comments on X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 19:38:28 -0000 --94eb2c0769143fe4c1056997c81e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Bob, On Fri, Apr 6, 2018 at 12:00 PM, Bob Hinden wrote: > Hi, > > A few comments on . This ranges from > editorial to substantive. > Thanks for these. Your comments are very helpful, especially to someone who's been really close to this work and doesn't always remember what people haven't seen. I'll coordinate with the IAB when it's time to put out a revision. Spencer > > Bob > > ------------ > > When was this workshop? I could not find a meeting date in the draft. > > ---- > > 1.1. Understanding "Bandwidth Optimization" > > =E2=80=A6. > > o Prioritisation of interactive traffic over background traffic > > What do you mean by =E2=80=9Cbackground traffic=E2=80=9D? Customers on m= obile networks > don=E2=80=99t consider their email or web browsing as =E2=80=9Cbackground= traffic=E2=80=9D. For > that matter, what do you mean by interactive traffic? Voice? Please > clarify. > > =E2=80=A6 > > o Business-related topics such as content delivery arrangements with > specific content providers. > > Like practices that violate network neutrality? > > =E2=80=94=E2=80=94 > > Quite a typo in: > > 1.4. Use of Note Well and Charter House Rule > > The workshop was conducted under the IETF [NOTE_WELL] with the > exception of the "Technical Analysis and Response to Potential > Regulatory Reaction" session which was conducted under > [CHATHAM_HOUSE_RULE]. > > I assume you mean =E2=80=9CChatham House Rule=E2=80=9D in the section hea= der. > > =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 > > Section 2.1 Scene Setting > > I don=E2=80=99t think this section did an adequate job describing a mobil= e > network. For example, my understanding is that mobile networks the radio > part is confined to the edges, the rest of the network is wired. There > isn=E2=80=99t any architectural differences with the wired part as compar= ed with > other ISP networks. I think the report would be better if it went into > more detail about this. The issues are in or near the radio network. > > I realize this is a report on a meeting, but there wasn=E2=80=99t any dis= cussion > of the tradeoff so creating smaller cell site to get more bandwidth and > reduced latency. This can also be a solution to some of the issues > discussed here. > > =E2=80=94=E2=80=94 > > 2.1.2 Encryption Statistics > > Good to see that encrypted content is reaching around 50%. But as I note= d > earlier when was this? What is it today? > > =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 > > 2.3. Awareness of User Choice (Privacy) > > =E2=80=A6. > > If users and content providers are to opt-in to user network > management services with negative privacy impacts they should see > clear value from using these services, and understand the impacts on > clear interfaces. Users should also have easy abilities to opt-out. > Some users will always automatically click through consent requests, > so any model relying on explicit consent is flawed for these users. > Understanding the extent of "auto click through" may help make better > decisions for consent requests in the future. One model (Cooperative > Traffic Management) works as an agent of the user; by opting-in > metadata can be shared. Issues with this involve trust only being > applied at endpoints. > > I note my personal view is that I am fine with providers using me as the > product when I am using a free service (like gmail that I am using to sen= d > this). I strongly dislike my information being used when I pay for the > service. Since mobile operators don=E2=80=99t usually provide a free ser= vice, I > don=E2=80=99t think they should be using our data to make additional mone= y. Enough > is enough. > > This would be a good topic for the IAB to explore. > > ---------- > > 3.1. Sending Data Up / Down for Network Management Benefits > > =E2=80=A6. > > o Network Status API: An API for operators to share congestion > status or the state of a cell before an application starts sending > data could allow applications to change their behaviour. > > So this would be something like giving the hosts a way to understand > what=E2=80=99s going on inside a particular network (or access network)? = Does this > scale? This seems to me to be looking at the mobile network as the cente= r > and not just a part of the Internet. Could you clarify this? > > =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 > > 7. Suggested Principles and Solutions > > =E2=80=A6. > > o CDNs and Caches: placing caches closer to the mobile user or > making more intelligent CDNs would result in faster content > delivery and less train on the network. Related work includes: > > Does this mean putting caches closer to the the edge where the radios are= ? > > =E2=80=A6. > > o One bit for latency / bandwidth trade-off: determining whether > using a single bit to distinguish between traffic that the sender > prefers to be queued and traffic that the sender would prefer to > drop rather than delay provides additional benefits beyond what > can be achieved without this signaling. > > A bit in the IP header? Who=E2=80=99s going to set this bit? Why not su= pport > RFC3514 too and solve all security problems too? > > =E2=80=94=E2=80=94 > > 8. Since MaRNEW > > =E2=80=A6.. > > The most rewarding output of MaRNEW is perhaps the most intangible. > MaRNEW gave two rather divergent industry groups the opportunity to > connect and discuss common technologies and issues affecting users > and operations. Mobile Network providers and key Internet engineers > and experts have developed a greater collaborative relationship to > aid development of further standards which work across networks in a > secure manner. > > Very good! > > > > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > > --94eb2c0769143fe4c1056997c81e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Bob,

On Fri, Apr 6, 2018 at 12:00 PM, Bob Hinden <<= a href=3D"mailto:bob.hinden@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">bob.hinden@gmail.c= om> wrote:
Hi,

A few comments on <draft-iab-marnew-report-01>.=C2=A0 This ranges fro= m editorial to substantive.

Thanks for = these. Your comments are very helpful, especially to someone who's been= really close to this work and doesn't always remember what people have= n't seen.

I'll coordinate with the IAB whe= n it's time to put out a revision.

Spencer
=C2=A0

Bob

------------

When was this workshop?=C2=A0 I could not find a meeting date in the draft.=

----

1.1.=C2=A0 Understanding "Bandwidth Optimization"

=C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=A6.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Prioritisation of interactive traffic over background = traffic

What do you mean by =E2=80=9Cbackground traffic=E2=80=9D?=C2=A0 Customers o= n mobile networks don=E2=80=99t consider their email or web browsing as =E2= =80=9Cbackground traffic=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 For that matter, what do you mean = by interactive traffic?=C2=A0 Voice?=C2=A0 Please clarify.

=E2=80=A6

=C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Business-related topics such as content delivery arran= gements with
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 specific content providers.

Like practices that violate network neutrality?

=E2=80=94=E2=80=94

Quite a typo in:

1.4.=C2=A0 Use of Note Well and Charter House Rule

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The workshop was conducted under the IETF [NOTE_WELL] with the=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0exception of the "Technical Analysis and Response to Pote= ntial
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Regulatory Reaction" session which was conducted under =C2=A0 =C2=A0[CHATHAM_HOUSE_RULE].

I assume you mean =E2=80=9CChatham House Rule=E2=80=9D in the section heade= r.

=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94

Section 2.1 Scene Setting

I don=E2=80=99t think this section did an adequate job describing a mobile = network.=C2=A0 For example, my understanding is that mobile networks the ra= dio part is confined to the edges, the rest of the network is wired.=C2=A0 = There isn=E2=80=99t any architectural differences with the wired part as co= mpared with other ISP networks.=C2=A0 I think the report would be better if= it went into more detail about this.=C2=A0 The issues are in or near the r= adio network.

I realize this is a report on a meeting, but there wasn=E2=80=99t any discu= ssion of the tradeoff so creating smaller cell site to get more bandwidth a= nd reduced latency.=C2=A0 This can also be a solution to some of the issues= discussed here.

=E2=80=94=E2=80=94

2.1.2=C2=A0 Encryption Statistics

Good to see that encrypted content is reaching around 50%.=C2=A0 But as I n= oted earlier when was this?=C2=A0 What is it today?

=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94

2.3.=C2=A0 Awareness of User Choice (Privacy)

=E2=80=A6.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0If users and content providers are to opt-in to user network =C2=A0 =C2=A0management services with negative privacy impacts they should = see
=C2=A0 =C2=A0clear value from using these services, and understand the impa= cts on
=C2=A0 =C2=A0clear interfaces.=C2=A0 Users should also have easy abilities = to opt-out.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Some users will always automatically click through consent req= uests,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0so any model relying on explicit consent is flawed for these u= sers.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Understanding the extent of "auto click through" may= help make better
=C2=A0 =C2=A0decisions for consent requests in the future.=C2=A0 One model = (Cooperative
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Traffic Management) works as an agent of the user; by opting-i= n
=C2=A0 =C2=A0metadata can be shared.=C2=A0 Issues with this involve trust o= nly being
=C2=A0 =C2=A0applied at endpoints.

I note my personal view is that I am fine with providers using me as the pr= oduct when I am using a free service (like gmail that I am using to send th= is).=C2=A0 =C2=A0I strongly dislike my information being used when I pay fo= r the service.=C2=A0 Since mobile operators don=E2=80=99t usually provide a= free service, I don=E2=80=99t think they should be using our data to make = additional money.=C2=A0 Enough is enough.

This would be a good topic for the IAB to explore.

----------

3.1.=C2=A0 Sending Data Up / Down for Network Management Benefits

=E2=80=A6.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Network Status API: An API for operators to share cong= estion
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 status or the state of a cell before an application st= arts sending
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 data could allow applications to change their behaviou= r.

So this would be something like giving the hosts a way to understand what= =E2=80=99s going on inside a particular network (or access network)?=C2=A0 = Does this scale?=C2=A0 This seems to me to be looking at the mobile network= as the center and not just a part of the Internet.=C2=A0 Could you clarify= this?

=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94

7.=C2=A0 Suggested Principles and Solutions

=E2=80=A6.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 CDNs and Caches: placing caches closer to the mobile u= ser or
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 making more intelligent CDNs would result in faster co= ntent
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 delivery and less train on the network.=C2=A0 Related = work includes:

Does this mean putting caches closer to the the edge where the radios are?<= br>
=E2=80=A6.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 One bit for latency / bandwidth trade-off: determining= whether
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 using a single bit to distinguish between traffic that= the sender
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 prefers to be queued and traffic that the sender would= prefer to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 drop rather than delay provides additional benefits be= yond what
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 can be achieved without this signaling.

A bit in the IP header?=C2=A0 Who=E2=80=99s going to set this bit?=C2=A0 Wh= y not support RFC3514 too and solve all security problems too?

=E2=80=94=E2=80=94

8.=C2=A0 Since MaRNEW

=E2=80=A6..

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The most rewarding output of MaRNEW is perhaps the most intang= ible.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0MaRNEW gave two rather divergent industry groups the opportuni= ty to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0connect and discuss common technologies and issues affecting u= sers
=C2=A0 =C2=A0and operations.=C2=A0 Mobile Network providers and key Interne= t engineers
=C2=A0 =C2=A0and experts have developed a greater collaborative relationshi= p to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0aid development of further standards which work across network= s in a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0secure manner.

Very good!



_______________________________________________
Architecture-discuss mailing list
Architecture-discuss@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinf= o/architecture-discuss


--94eb2c0769143fe4c1056997c81e-- From nobody Wed Apr 11 12:39:28 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86D1D12AAB6 for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 12:39:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id miWHxJRAswtm for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 12:39:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb0-x231.google.com (mail-yb0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c09::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 380BE1271FD for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 12:39:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb0-x231.google.com with SMTP id h18-v6so1037086ybm.3 for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 12:39:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=vDw3/N4a8CcSmf8doNJ1eVwPBY4+GdA80dwsOIP5LcE=; b=BWZdz7GicWA4tJOtznlO5BZ6IrSPiUdo3hnrDFqyTlKP2yWc9AUwjocXMoseg/vqRm LZw0XtEkFwWc0h7Q47zROHCBCzyKLPwtotpu10p/13D+nGZYCDYdnDSUwrObLEFpF1uR XUffZgodDxDMcFaY9QoCuLYfG3oJ0DMm2iMFitBVqK1kpuNhFsSMH1s2HXWubHHf36pX KtXLxTBEHJGVr+6DaFe+A/6jWi0g2znUlyi9WSOkPsSEBHlYK/W4nvP9ffDy39xu6njq m9E5w+aLd4BX6ZmTmF7Y/ASsnLv2ZX0If0IcJfuwhU9Fv9OZ/5Ev5OOzpeGrI2BJl5d8 WGdA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=vDw3/N4a8CcSmf8doNJ1eVwPBY4+GdA80dwsOIP5LcE=; b=N+jD8rLJrkEvEyEcXxxoPymBNIF/2uoK74ZLpPtSFYfdGFi5tdLzBxclomB9ktaFYW Mtjj7I3/TEV3Xn4FkSrAE6au/8JB1Ai+2WFSrV27ZEC5w5PFKgBOisqKtfdFIA5AyREl CYC3DfXgjCSO65nECxLl+BlfEyBQHNbTHzqtBd6FV9Kmmwb2/11z3RxrBCLMWGhD5cwT KPwYYVjyo56JFL5xZto9gBQp1IkBumlVgRETFy5K3y91OgtWaioO3MnJROgYFI1a2bWV WGDOqXjSX6tHaTG6xtQDGZlbPLGPKNp84qEAWwUgyCDW/9vbjlxxHpQI7hnRWFSk0ui7 8Gqw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tCpbU127j5ZeeSG7bMiJR+BJcfX7VSkRVXw70hZOprFmHm+11Nl pEKkfHhWib4uKwIyGwYp72fS91JtWWRj3YxP3bMz2w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx49bXBC63v0D0NUAt6giPDBPTa8HOPHl1X3E32CR29kUQRi/WoZnBmYzOZg/dmQShKKBEaQM3KViGOdwECr2mas= X-Received: by 2002:a25:dc5:: with SMTP id 188-v6mr2984039ybn.221.1523475562369; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 12:39:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a25:7cc1:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 12:39:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <152279331966.23985.3238502800355132103.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 14:39:21 -0500 Message-ID: To: Warren Kumari Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org, IAB Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b8196d056997cb81" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Call for Comment: (IAB Workshop on Managing Radio Networks in an Encrypted World (MaRNEW) Report) X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 19:39:26 -0000 --000000000000b8196d056997cb81 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, Warren, Thanks for these comments - they're helpful. I'll coordinate with the IAB when it's time to put out a revision. Spencer On Tue, Apr 10, 2018 at 5:09 PM, Warren Kumari wrote: > I think it would be useful to have the date of the MarNEW workshop > near the top of the document (perhaps "The MarNEW workshop (September, > 2015) aimed ...") - our tone and understanding of the issues being > discussed has changed significantly in the 2 years, 7 months since the > workshop happened. > > The document also talks about things like "From a recent study > [Pew2014] 64% of users said..." -- Pew2014 was ~1 year old when the > workshop occurred, but it's now 3 years 5 months in the past -- not > really "recent" any more. > > > Nits: > Abstract: > "The MarNEW workshop" MarNEW -> MaRNEW > > s/understandinf/understanding/ > > > W > > > On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 6:08 PM, IAB Executive Administrative Manager > wrote: > > This is an announcement of an IETF-wide Call for Comment on > > draft-iab-marnew-report-01. > > > > The document is being considered for publication as an Informational RFC > > within the IAB stream, and is available for inspection at: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-marnew-report/ > > > > The Call for Comment will last until 2018-05-01. Please send comments to > > architecture-discuss@ietf.org and iab@iab.org. > > > > > > Abstract > > > > The MarNEW workshop aimed to discuss solutions for bandwidth > > optimisation on mobile networks for encrypted content, as current > > solutions rely on unencrypted content which is not indicative of the > > security needs of today's Internet users. The workshop gathered IETF > > attendees, IAB members and various organisations involved in the > > telecommunications industry including original equipment > > manufacturers and mobile network operators. > > > > The group discussed the current Internet encryption trends and > > deployment issues identified within the IETF, and the privacy needs > > of users which should be adhered. Solutions designed around sharing > > data from the network to the endpoints and vice versa were then > > discussed as well as analysing whether the current issues experienced > > on the transport layer are also playing a role here. Content > > providers and CDNs gave an honest view of their experiences delivery > > content with mobile network operators. Finally, technical responses > > to regulation was discussed to help the regulated industries relay > > the issues of impossible to implement or bad-for-privacy technologies > > back to regulators. > > > > A group of suggested solutions were devised which will be discussed > > in various IETF groups moving forward. > > > > > > -- > I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad > idea in the first place. > This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing > regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair > of pants. > ---maf > > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > --000000000000b8196d056997cb81 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Warren,

Thanks for these comments -= they're helpful.

I'll coordinate with the IAB when it's ti= me to put out a revision.=C2=A0

Spencer=C2= =A0=C2=A0

On Tue, Apr 10, 2018 at 5:09 PM, Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net&g= t; wrote:
I think it would be usef= ul to have the date of the MarNEW workshop
near the top of the document (perhaps "The MarNEW workshop (September,=
2015) aimed ...") - our tone and understanding of the issues being
discussed has changed significantly in the 2 years, 7 months since the
workshop happened.

The document also talks about things like "From a recent study
[Pew2014] 64% of users said..." -- Pew2014 was ~1 year old when the workshop occurred, but it's now 3 years 5 months in the past -- not
really "recent" any more.


Nits:
Abstract:
"The MarNEW workshop" MarNEW -> MaRNEW

s/understandinf/understanding/


W


On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 6:08 PM, IAB Executive Administrative Manager
<execd@iab.org> wrote:
> This is an announcement of an IETF-wide Call for Comment on
> draft-iab-marnew-report-01.
>
> The document is being considered for publication as an Informational R= FC
> within the IAB stream, and is available for inspection at:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/= draft-iab-marnew-report/
>
> The Call for Comment will last until 2018-05-01. Please send comments = to
> architecture-discuss@= ietf.org and iab@iab.org.
>
>
> Abstract
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The MarNEW workshop aimed to discuss solutions for bandwi= dth
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 optimisation on mobile networks for encrypted content, as= current
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 solutions rely on unencrypted content which is not indica= tive of the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 security needs of today's Internet users.=C2=A0 The w= orkshop gathered IETF
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 attendees, IAB members and various organisations involved= in the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 telecommunications industry including original equipment<= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 manufacturers and mobile network operators.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The group discussed the current Internet encryption trend= s and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 deployment issues identified within the IETF, and the pri= vacy needs
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 of users which should be adhered.=C2=A0 Solutions designe= d around sharing
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 data from the network to the endpoints and vice versa wer= e then
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 discussed as well as analysing whether the current issues= experienced
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 on the transport layer are also playing a role here.=C2= =A0 Content
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 providers and CDNs gave an honest view of their experienc= es delivery
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 content with mobile network operators.=C2=A0 Finally, tec= hnical responses
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to regulation was discussed to help the regulated industr= ies relay
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the issues of impossible to implement or bad-for-privacy = technologies
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 back to regulators.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A group of suggested solutions were devised which will be= discussed
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in various IETF groups moving forward.
>



--
I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad
idea in the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair
of pants.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0---maf

_______________________________________________
Architecture-discuss mailing list
Architecture-discuss@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinf= o/architecture-discuss

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boundary="Apple-Mail=_1907A686-7F41-426D-8B2E-28CEBB6EE038"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 856362b6-b7d1-4069-5392-08d5a3cf667b X-OriginatorOrg: isoc.org X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 856362b6-b7d1-4069-5392-08d5a3cf667b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 16 Apr 2018 19:22:31.4146 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 89f84dfb-7285-4810-bc4d-8b9b5794554f X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR06MB4140 Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] Consolidation and the "Decentralization" section of Mozilla's 2018 Internet Health Report X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 19:22:37 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_1907A686-7F41-426D-8B2E-28CEBB6EE038 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E209F688-B158-4277-96AC-C4DCFAA93347" --Apple-Mail=_E209F688-B158-4277-96AC-C4DCFAA93347 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Related to the recent topic of "consolidation", Mozilla issued their = 2018 Internet Health Report last week: https://internethealthreport.org/2018/ = and a section of it is all related to "Decentralization": https://internethealthreport.org/2018/category/decentralization/ = "Who controls the Internet? A few large players dominate much of the online world, but the Internet = is healthier when it is controlled by many." The section contains 12 articles on a range of aspects of = decentralization / consolidation. There are a few that do touch on more = technical sides of the topic (or provide data about consolidation): https://internethealthreport.org/2018/too-big-tech/ = = https://internethealthreport.org/2018/social-media-giants-facebook-tencent= -google-reign/ = https://internethealthreport.org/2018/google-dominates-browser-market/ = = https://internethealthreport.org/2018/90-of-the-world-uses-google-search/ = You may find the other articles of interest, too. Dan -- Dan York Director, Content & Web Strategy, Internet Society york@isoc.org +1-802-735-1624=20 Jabber: york@jabber.isoc.org Skype: danyork = http://twitter.com/danyork http://www.internetsociety.org/ --Apple-Mail=_E209F688-B158-4277-96AC-C4DCFAA93347 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Related to the recent topic of "consolidation", Mozilla = issued their 2018 Internet Health Report last week:

https://internethealthreport.org/2018/

and a section of it is = all related to "Decentralization":

https://internethealthreport.org/2018/category/decentralization= /

"Who controls the Internet?
A few = large players dominate much of the online world, but the Internet = is healthier when it is controlled by many."

The section contains 12 articles on a = range of aspects of decentralization / consolidation. There are a few = that do touch on more technical sides of the topic (or provide data = about consolidation):

https://internethealthreport.org/2018/too-big-tech/
https://internethealthreport.org/2018/social-media-giants-faceb= ook-tencent-google-reign/
https://internethealthreport.org/2018/google-dominates-browser-= market/
https://internethealthreport.org/2018/90-of-the-world-uses-goog= le-search/

You may find the other articles of interest, too.

Dan

--
Dan York
Director, Content & = Web Strategy, Internet Society
york@isoc.org   = +1-802-735-1624 
Jabber: york@jabber.isoc.org =  Skype: danyork   http://twitter.com/danyork

http://www.internetsociety.org/

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Skinner CC: Geoff Huston , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [arch-d] consolidation Thread-Index: AQHTvyiQ5J/xfPj4yEOOYCUr33ddqqPXGgWAgAGiOgCAMX47AA== Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 19:18:46 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3FF8C38C-9C88-4034-AD21-9812CED63BC8@piuha.net> <618701B8-B1FC-48DC-9FB4-7DD5B739F928@tony.li> <5A9EAA6F.7090001@isdg.net> <3F6BDDCF-7DD8-49CD-B7B6-44F76613D4CA@apnic.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=york@isoc.org; x-originating-ip: [74.75.84.32] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; DM6PR06MB3963; 7:ZkwDBsfNJKkUNe0gcZN+V40dEUyDQj4u+HcJ4KFYhrhqOvYDxZhDPuArqoFLPsB7/52FFC5NmtQI1V9pyxn+SJzXHc6iu0c8avV3ahQjbZUni18bQraOsVBdik27c92ran6SitfRBOL+XTjB8lj/Kdfyd+0Zvgn/A6u9IhclsEzjhFE6GmqvSsyFRN62R2YJ1xzcGPaM9gra7kt7z+c2t0aqdTdJ3yEQvgowspFwjH3e14luu9PYJ/6iDsaBt82O x-ms-exchange-antispam-srfa-diagnostics: SOS; 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w7//05s3GAefwhv3HxAug7lJnG16/Ds1OJI8chtJsk8OoR/kR2/Letd+56UlD8BFB9ua7N2DXfBvbx5VZj8xxhpNBQAJGXU9OFiun7YwrpWXghCwgK335FIxMuVm4iXuw8sYgPwmWHvA8bqwZHBy8J2SxuT5YFr3EODBzG1ERbjJNyEuTc7E/PN2BEdDukML spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A388D37C-AD03-4386-8A3D-B8F77394A03F"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 9b88e0c8-657d-4509-6ae4-08d5a6f38a17 X-OriginatorOrg: isoc.org X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 9b88e0c8-657d-4509-6ae4-08d5a6f38a17 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 20 Apr 2018 19:18:46.5441 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 89f84dfb-7285-4810-bc4d-8b9b5794554f X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR06MB3963 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] consolidation X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 19:18:53 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A388D37C-AD03-4386-8A3D-B8F77394A03F Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_6EA48747-87AD-41EC-8F79-6FF76FF429E1" --Apple-Mail=_6EA48747-87AD-41EC-8F79-6FF76FF429E1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Greg, My apologies for the lengthy delay in responding. I seem to have missed = this question to me - my mistake! > On Mar 20, 2018, at 3:30 AM, Greg Skinner = wrote: >=20 > Is this something the ISOC could take up, perhaps by updating the = Internet Ecosystem paper = or something like it with a CDN section? Thanks for the suggestion. Within ISOC, we are thinking about what would = be the best way to approach this overall topic. Do we update an older = paper? Write a new one? Or do we create something aligned with our = Global Internet Report from last year ( = https://future.internetsociety.org/ ) where this theme (consolidation) = was part of several sections? Or do we do all of the above? Not quite sure yet, but yes, it's a topic we're interested in doing more = with. Suggestions are welcome. Thanks, Dan P.S. If you haven't seen our section on "The Internet Economy" in the = 2017 Global Internet Report, we did have several sections and "what if?" = vignettes about the rise of walled gardens, mega-platforms, etc. See = more: = https://future.internetsociety.org/introduction-drivers-of-change-areas-of= -impact/drivers-of-change/the-internet-economy/ There are, of course, = many other aspects to consolidation beyond just the economic aspect. P.P.S. I will be heading offline in a couple of hours for a week of = vacation, so I won't be replying until after Monday, April 30. >=20 > Greg >=20 >> On Mar 18, 2018, at 11:33 PM, Dan York > wrote: >>=20 >> I, too, am very pleased to see the IAB taking up the topic of = consolidation / centralization as it has been one of great concern for = me as I've watched the evolution of the Internet's architecture, = particularly over the last decade. I have a number of thoughts to share = in another note, but I wanted to respond to something Geoff wrote: >>=20 >> ------ Original Message ------ >> From: "Geoff Huston" > >>> But I am trying to say that the model of what the Internet is today, = namely a set of sparsely connected CDN service cones, is far away from = the template we originally imagined >>=20 >>=20 >> The rise of CDNs and other similar overlay networks is definitely not = well understood outside the circles of those of us involved with = Internet technologies and issues. Many people I speak with still have = this idea that when they connect to a company's content (website, video, = etc.) they are actually connecting to the company's own servers, not = realizing that this whole layer of CDNs now exist. Users are very = seldom interacting directly with the company's servers.[1] Usually they = are connecting to edge servers of whatever CDN the company is using. >>=20 >> I'm not sure yet that there are technical actions here, but I do = think it would be worth exploring how to help a wider range of Internet = users understand more about how the underlying architecture of the = Internet has evolved. Some of those users are people seeking to make = policies or regulations. Some of them are people seeking to develop new = solutions. Helping them understand more could be useful. Perhaps through = some documents or papers or articles... not sure of the exact = mechanisms. I just know that others out there don't understand that the = mental model they are using for "the Internet" is no longer an accurate = representation. >>=20 >> My 2 cents, >> Dan >>=20 >> P.S. I noticed a recent blog post from Comcast [2] that was talking = about the need for a "network of networks" - but it was actually talking = about the value of using multiple CDNs to deliver content. Which is, = indeed, taking "network of networks" to an even larger scale when you = are talking about having a network of already-massive networks. >>=20 >> [1] Unless, of course, the company owns the CDN, too. >> [2] = https://www.comcasttechnologysolutions.com/blog/content-delivery-network-n= etworks = >>=20 >>=20 -- Dan York Director, Content & Web Strategy, Internet Society york@isoc.org +1-802-735-1624=20 Jabber: york@jabber.isoc.org Skype: danyork = http://twitter.com/danyork http://www.internetsociety.org/ --Apple-Mail=_6EA48747-87AD-41EC-8F79-6FF76FF429E1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Greg,

My apologies for the lengthy delay in responding. I seem to = have missed this question to me - my mistake!

On Mar 20, 2018, at 3:30 AM, Greg Skinner <gregskinner0@icloud.com> wrote:

Is this something the ISOC could take up, perhaps by updating = the Internet Ecosystem = paper or something like it with a CDN section?

Thanks for the = suggestion. Within ISOC, we are thinking about what would be the best = way to approach this overall topic. Do we update an older paper? Write a = new one? Or do we create something aligned with our Global Internet = Report from last year ( https://future.internetsociety.org/ ) where this theme = (consolidation) was part of several sections?  Or do we do all of = the above?

Not quite sure yet, but = yes, it's a topic we're interested in doing more with.  Suggestions = are welcome.

Thanks,
Dan

P.S. If you haven't seen our section on "The = Internet Economy" in the 2017 Global Internet Report, we did have = several sections and "what if?" vignettes about the rise of walled = gardens, mega-platforms, etc. See more: https://future.internetsociety.org/introduction-drivers-of-chan= ge-areas-of-impact/drivers-of-change/the-internet-economy/ =  There are, of course, many other aspects to consolidation beyond = just the economic aspect.

P.P.S. I = will be heading offline in a couple of hours for a week of vacation, so = I won't be replying until after Monday, April 30.


Greg

On Mar 18, 2018, at 11:33 PM, Dan York <york@isoc.org> = wrote:

I, too, am very pleased to see the IAB taking up the topic of = consolidation / centralization as it has been one of great concern for = me as I've watched the evolution of the Internet's architecture, = particularly over the last decade. I have a number of thoughts to share in another note, but I wanted to respond to something Geoff = wrote:

------ Original Message ------
From: "Geoff Huston" <gih@apnic.net>
But I am trying to say that the model of what the = Internet is today, namely a set of sparsely connected CDN service cones, = is far away from the template we originally imagined

The rise of CDNs and other similar overlay networks is definitely not = well understood outside the circles of those of us involved with = Internet technologies and issues. Many people I speak with still have = this idea that when they connect to a company's content (website, video, etc.) they are actually connecting to the company's = own servers, not realizing that this whole layer of CDNs now exist. =  Users are very seldom interacting directly with the company's = servers.[1] Usually they are connecting to edge servers of whatever CDN the company is using.

I'm not sure yet that there are technical actions here, = but I do think it would be worth exploring how to help a wider range of = Internet users understand more about how the underlying architecture of = the Internet has evolved. Some of those users are people seeking to make policies or regulations. Some of them are = people seeking to develop new solutions. Helping them understand more = could be useful. Perhaps through some documents or papers or articles... = not sure of the exact mechanisms. I just know that others out there don't understand that the mental model they are = using for "the Internet" is no longer an accurate representation.

My 2 cents,
Dan

P.S. I noticed a recent blog post from Comcast [2] that = was talking about the need for a "network of networks" - but it was = actually talking about the value of using multiple CDNs to deliver = content. Which is, indeed, taking "network of networks" to an even larger scale when you are talking about having a network of = already-massive networks.

[1] Unless, of course, the company owns the CDN, = too.
[2] https://www.comcasttechnologysolutions.com/blog/content-deliver= y-network-networks




--
Dan York
Director, Content & Web Strategy, Internet = Society
york@isoc.org   +1-802-735-1624 
Jabber: york@jabber.isoc.org  Skype: danyork   http://twitter.com/danyork

http://www.internetsociety.org/

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