From nobody Fri Jun 1 03:35:42 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AB65127871 for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2018 03:35:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H3ZA7U9aTB5V for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2018 03:35:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot0-x243.google.com (mail-ot0-x243.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c0f::243]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EE8D51276AF for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2018 03:35:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot0-x243.google.com with SMTP id y10-v6so28730569otg.10 for ; Fri, 01 Jun 2018 03:35:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=hXttn8/UdWaR8FcqcY4Ol+wHPZ+jX0QRhski1/vOE4E=; b=oIIHH9rINU+ZH+5CMasXmbglQZLWWtKzcrX6i0hBR4MEpZm1h8iWVx14C8kYHyIMBV t+k8JAnHNIDGjs2n/gVcnS0u/M5wDWihoCLqhbQIPudZDYkr7T4YIZBM0T2FMMwgB3zO wE0g7sjRsQ1zdOtB4IVM5jVACyEhjxpbUZHQMuziHZQgRj5BGaBiDjVYFhO3B23zejh8 NV3/jzCNfSa7P5BE2T5rVlbya/rikfkabLHZUte91eWT9nNtdqES47xeYAXbWmMaZHDe I2i71NkQDkRDNrW2oLzp/jybJTR38o2geD2VXmTQgjG1seyj0wRe6tiWVD+JZ5Dt+08n M3wQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=hXttn8/UdWaR8FcqcY4Ol+wHPZ+jX0QRhski1/vOE4E=; b=L/z8MrklFIPeqhrtqlGHwlx85iP5hLuBDmxPWY1YqZUS2Jd10EBUEE4H/fNx/gqgk0 LMcjS9uNcnLAgcfXplRKfC8S2TashudzvMtEJNTfodSarTpBAnXnYpX3hzEe9iLb0Puj 70ItxVafgdJylytUX0/1nAW7qhnx676oZmeyO3/aY3j/8oO8CNL1Yjgv25D3dr5BUWYx WwYEofjJ2j0fxiZLyG3NbWAORVUxF0Yhxxsv1JONSf5uxq/P8BJEseQm+yeikc5eaxmc 4kSKUk/PIJO4DOBX9hMFxXs/Wqtdnioh3SnaVrX7W8xl/8DU+Ex3xSDMXheRYPL9fcJk jzEg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALKqPwe289IuniQlAJaT3uVHO+Q1BvhCEa4E6Owz3o68y9u86Kfx5LOe IPTlqTGRonv4fqscXVvbgTIWg4oMOGLd418zroQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADUXVKIcwWKB32RTpsTd58McWmK2iwk5blnz+qA7XM1xQfdjGwHRATEdSI0BqnnIkzoDb/0EQM3nPAdWR0X/c7BN6fY= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:3a65:: with SMTP id j92-v6mr7338316otc.352.1527849337145; Fri, 01 Jun 2018 03:35:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <152538075241.4552.6760702690778529507@ietfa.amsl.com> <09be44d2-929e-0e2c-52e1-c72ce93a6410@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <09be44d2-929e-0e2c-52e1-c72ce93a6410@gmail.com> From: Martin Thomson Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 20:35:25 +1000 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] I-D Action: draft-iab-protocol-maintenance-00.txt X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2018 10:35:41 -0000 Up-leveling a little using Brian's email as a stepping point as good as any other, because be makes a nice point here: On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 9:15 AM Brian E Carpenter wrote: > My argument is really that designers need to bear in mind that if they > leave loose ends of any kind, it is very probable that implementers > *will* deal with those loose ends via the robustness principle, for reasons > that Tony Li stated. If you argue that this is a bad thing, I won't disagree, > but my conclusion is not that the robustness principle is a mistake - it's > that specs should not leave loose ends. I thoroughly agree with this, but I'm afraid that I've not communicated my point, and I apologize for this. The fundamental problem is not with the observation of the necessity of this sort of compromise. It's an ugly truth that you sometimes have to do that (the draft says that). For instance, this week we're considering loosening our name validation to permit names that are clearly invalid according to numerous RFCs [1]. That was never the point of the document, but I see now that I wasn't successful in making the point sharp enough, because that message was mostly lost in the defense of the principle (though that was a very useful discussion for me, so thanks all). Let me try different approach in the hopes that this illustrates my point better: Postel's Maxim as the Laws of Thermodynamics: First: You can't win. An implementation that seeks interoperability will encounter a situation where they need to implement measures that follow Postel's Maxim (and either be more conservative in sending, or more liberal in receiving). Second: You can't break even. An implementation that seeks interoperability cannot remove any measures it implements in following Postel's Maxim, at best, it can only operate without adding new interoperability measures. Third: You can't quit the game. An implementation that ceases adding interoperability adaptations will eventually become non-interoperable. Like with Maxwell's demon, the fallacy here is hard to see at first. That fallacy is that the system is closed. But we don't leave protocol implementers alone, and to the extent that we're able to maintain protocols, we are able to inject new energy into the system. Alone, an implementer of a specification ends up being forced to do whatever is necessary to interoperate. When it's interoperate or die, the choice really isn't one. So yes, do what you gotta. And Postel did a great job of describing exactly what you do in these situations. But we can't hold that up as a guiding principle. By saying that this is a principled action, you ennoble the activity in ways that aren't deserved; the "Robustness Principle" advocates a purely self-serving action that only risks harm to the ecosystem as a whole. And I remain convinced of that. This is not a principle that should guide protocol design, but should be more useful as a caution to protocol designers. That is, it describes the effect you get when the protocol is hard to understand, build, and deploy; and that the best and only defense is continued involvement and adjustment. In the end, I still think that the best plan is to continue the emphasis on what protocol and implementations maintainers can do to work together. I've been involved in a few projects that have successfully managed to build and maintain a community [2] and thereby escape the "closed system" trap on thinking. The TLS 1.3 process is fresh though, and a great example. Sure, we have a new RFC coming that represents a fairly remarkable achievement, which is terrific. But a secondary outcome of that process, which was probably a precondition for success, was not the spec, but what has happened to the community. 5 years ago, getting TLS 1.2 shipped was really hard - a few people knew each other but it was all somewhat insular. A small few of those managed to bootstrap the process of shipping TLS 1.2, just as work on 1.3 was starting. But it was a risky proposition then and everyone had their fingers on the "off" switch as it rolled out. Now, I can comfortably say that a very large proportion of the TLS implementer community is actively participating in the IETF [3]. People know each other and are now comfortable working together. Shipping TLS 1.2 was a simple task made hard, unshipping SSL 3 a year on was a risky task that was barely successful, and now we're shipping TLS 1.3, which I can say was a near-impossible task made possible thanks to the healthy community we now have. Enough digression though. Obviously, this means that the draft needs work. It's probably going to take a few more rounds to sharpen the thesis more and get the emphasis right. But now that I can see now where the concerns are coming from, I think that I have a way forward. The idea that you might be able to be virtuously intolerant is an idea that I'd like to explore a little more. I think that idea has merit, but it needs more work to get right. FWIW, I anticipate some interesting results from the EDNS flag day proposed for next year [4] and will watch with interest. Exercising virtuous intolerance is a risky proposition. Cheers, Martin p.s., I still don't have a good example of ill-conceived permissiveness that isn't also a spec violation. But there are enough now that I'm starting to think that it's worth finding and documenting a few examples. [1] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1184059 [2] I can personally claim very little of the credit in all cases. [3] Along with great involvement from academics, whose contribution was critical, though not particularly relevant to this discussion. [4] https://dnsflagday.net/ - thanks to Suz for pointing this one out. From nobody Sat Jun 2 07:37:23 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1370E12D7F5 for ; Sat, 2 Jun 2018 07:37:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FK8JUn6y4f0V for ; Sat, 2 Jun 2018 07:37:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from seine.is.ed.ac.uk (seine.is.ed.ac.uk [129.215.17.202]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2987C12D7F2 for ; Sat, 2 Jun 2018 07:37:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crunchie.inf.ed.ac.uk (crunchie.inf.ed.ac.uk [129.215.202.41]) by seine.is.ed.ac.uk (8.14.7/8.14.6) with ESMTP id w52EbFv1017035; Sat, 2 Jun 2018 15:37:15 +0100 Received: from troutbeck.inf.ed.ac.uk (troutbeck.inf.ed.ac.uk [129.215.25.32]) by crunchie.inf.ed.ac.uk (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id w52EbFQL016743; Sat, 2 Jun 2018 15:37:15 +0100 Received: from troutbeck.inf.ed.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by troutbeck.inf.ed.ac.uk (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id w52EbFGk022289; Sat, 2 Jun 2018 15:37:15 +0100 Received: (from ht@localhost) by troutbeck.inf.ed.ac.uk (8.14.7/8.14.7/Submit) id w52EbEuP022288; Sat, 2 Jun 2018 15:37:14 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: troutbeck.inf.ed.ac.uk: ht set sender to ht@inf.ed.ac.uk using -f To: Martin Thomson Cc: Brian E Carpenter , architecture-discuss@ietf.org References: <152538075241.4552.6760702690778529507@ietfa.amsl.com> <09be44d2-929e-0e2c-52e1-c72ce93a6410@gmail.com> From: ht@inf.ed.ac.uk (Henry S. Thompson) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2018 15:37:14 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Martin Thomson's message of "Fri\, 1 Jun 2018 20\:35\:25 +1000") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1012 (Gnus v5.10.12) XEmacs/21.5-b34 (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Edinburgh-Scanned: at seine.is.ed.ac.uk with MIMEDefang 2.78, Sophie, Sophos Anti-Virus, Clam AntiVirus X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.78 on 129.215.17.202 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] I-D Action: draft-iab-protocol-maintenance-00.txt X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2018 14:37:21 -0000 A related point that this conversation reminded me of, which I owe to Jonathan Rees: Underspecification (e.g. vagueness or gaps in a spec) often amount to implicit extension points. People will eventually notice them, and take advantage of them for their own purposes, leading to interoperability failures if/when extended entities escape into public space. ht -- Henry S. Thompson, School of Informatics, University of Edinburgh 10 Crichton Street, Edinburgh EH8 9AB, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440 Fax: (44) 131 650-4587, e-mail: ht@inf.ed.ac.uk URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/ [mail from me _always_ has a .sig like this -- mail without it is forged spam] From nobody Thu Jun 21 21:50:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B13E130DDE for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2018 21:50:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6qD6XHG1cl5G for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2018 21:50:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x244.google.com (mail-pf0-x244.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::244]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 88E9A130DE7 for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2018 21:50:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x244.google.com with SMTP id a63-v6so2606699pfl.1 for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2018 21:50:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:subject:to:cc:references:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=mkrDFQ4j4pvQL9YpfObKWwrLHkMvLqpUyylI6QT8QXU=; b=JXeaKbg9CNqoLxujWimr1XK+TaS6gz69RsmKNVBgH5aF+FYdJjoVoDpmGntx6UcN7J IFYSp0CifHkg+1b8VwJgOA0FNhHfYAVAuHyZbauxTf1fZKiP1Hz1EO0kjG1eybSOrolI vNfv7tV2izW//IeTN74i7D8oe4lbuUlvQCVgKk7NTH0bWOtjihjf71W1Boxj/hN4I4p1 nbldVasVQPH8L6dgxJ/OAa9D/WGfpB09UvnEeMQkcjaE+vY59C5k6/zh7gMLZKjuKxMu RkanU1QozmqsLChV3bWWaJxLz5VbCnYbGoSdhM0DAjdS0mJ6OLkh6GL26Vef2uEqybSq h6KQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:subject:to:cc:references:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=mkrDFQ4j4pvQL9YpfObKWwrLHkMvLqpUyylI6QT8QXU=; b=hbNibDNJUcP0KHbzO0pSZFQX3099a7H7GIr8gpeBCPbFmIXygMV0XkYQDFSV3NNe0H b6XvOrZZYp//71Te9rl4bUnZREgDrieIj1pBjV2EKu6EEs/lQonusIJNrJkl0+RQo7Co hiZkAXbaipnXH+bvnaH723bqkxeonTJSaDx4sgIjHteuyXaGF8FMs34HVY1pWpBm+PUU WDS6mLsSodGqXhjavX6TlSfH8yFZbSO5A+wFeWNLQv4ZCK6+ZgVx/HCCq5Zy9Yf3IwYJ aLUZ5EM+pEwHf3j9VopsQXI+LUu3vOJu3Phc2ZMqCUDrxhxSzIXCHwvp80ukLqXi96Ng UO4Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E2tjVGgL0d43JMgp3ZI7T8hySb7GnP46tOsxODp+cmik/tzJiO7 i8F9kH8jNFi1knjkhht7MO0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADUXVKKIK2TwQk1l7UENrRmMHYNjXvXFM/vKPSA5YJY5jy995bOvPRB3pCSGbo+GiSp3JxEfPmFNdA== X-Received: by 2002:a63:a702:: with SMTP id d2-v6mr47209pgf.246.1529643002167; Thu, 21 Jun 2018 21:50:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.38] ([118.148.121.80]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f6-v6sm15223375pfd.112.2018.06.21.21.49.59 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 21 Jun 2018 21:50:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian E Carpenter To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Cc: Sheng Jiang References: <152869295982.31953.14788689794273532958@ietfa.amsl.com> Message-ID: <6a2bfe6b-6515-c24b-84dc-8986e42b8f64@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 16:50:07 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <152869295982.31953.14788689794273532958@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-limited-domains-00.txt X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 04:50:06 -0000 Hi, This draft is a bit hard to classify, but certainly has an architectural aspect. We'd be very interested to hear comments on this list or in the corridors at IETF 102. Hopefully there will be a few slides at the Hot RFC session on Sunday, and possibly later in the week too. Regards Brian & Sheng -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-limited-domains-00.txt Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 21:55:59 -0700 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : Limited Domains and Internet Protocols Authors : Brian Carpenter Sheng Jiang Filename : draft-carpenter-limited-domains-00.txt Pages : 12 Date : 2018-06-10 Abstract: There is a noticeable trend towards network requirements, behaviours and semantics that are specific to a limited region of the Internet and a particular set of requirements. Policies, default parameters, the options supported, the style of network management and security requirements may vary. This document reviews examples of such limited domains and emerging solutions. It shows the needs for a precise definition of a limited domain boundary and for a corresponding protocol to allow nodes to discover where such a boundary exists. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-limited-domains/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-carpenter-limited-domains-00 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-carpenter-limited-domains-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt From nobody Fri Jun 22 01:07:26 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 877D9130DFF for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2018 01:07:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1-v57yNwS8Xc for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2018 01:07:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A9892130DFD for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2018 01:07:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fWH6E-0000Jh-I7 for architecture-discuss@ietf.org; Fri, 22 Jun 2018 10:07:19 +0200 To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org References: <152869295982.31953.14788689794273532958@ietfa.amsl.com> <6a2bfe6b-6515-c24b-84dc-8986e42b8f64@gmail.com> From: Niels ten Oever Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=lists@digitaldissidents.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFgpcR0BEACnfvNwTMlN+pyZT0AFYhWqxG3N4AoPIeNfbxLQH7dk8ZL7Ls05xtORfnu9 ovoaRrZpDufkMviUFidNYePbQNdgf63vWVgwpQR7utluwWraetcmZOu6tayJuyBK2b6d2Z23 MJAQxfa2/GMlN3QkvobaoyKtgbc8rOCgNla7WwkgtiVJ89xbAUHXPFpKWZluVRjaFh4p5C5r 7E5OvUiEGLQ5Cn2ir2PGIyIVqjB+hLTyaI6dIGCz2jtL0RATjmsmYUX7UkU/pz8MPPC2BJ5P KU9pdXMRBhAStxcph8vCo2ze9xSi3+1/5A2ULVtvO4s0hZ+exbTfMxMg3H5CCRFEEJXlQEXa Cd0ZHvqcv5xq8n9w/Ccd0CqYWATIwyP8Jlzd+BY3QGTWnWlgoAbs3Guh/pFYhEFNuuAF5Jk1 k5OlNGsRE/LQJmbT5SE7AtLJLbWewcHlEyIH+K6J8uVa4ExLXmRy+eRkFaxjGy3fLlUpy1Ee 1kU7VsQ/TZ8g8ujsMzxqsdB6y0TD/kVlWaDqPL6F+b+pm3lAuCBGWM1YZROTG58R6pD7sNVm i0ift4dIttAsg+2KoShm9A8kQ3tACXZDgNPC0l7VOqnVayjnF0RmjGeiX7PjOcLQCZ9a5wAH 5mrXMaKvfszqAVkP9HSrk1QVZOipF6vEimL43Czy7Rp1aUaUwwARAQABzShOaWVscyB0ZW4g T2V2ZXIgPG1haWxAbmllbHN0ZW5vZXZlci5uZXQ+wsGZBBMBCABDAhsjBQkJZgGABwsJCAcD AgEGFQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AWIQQkWAtwXEr9ipSIZDoO2D86RorIswUCWyJaFgIZAQAK CRAO2D86RorIs8I2D/wNc4kT+dRC3Y9lSygeVWuxNj21z/QlbNvfXx9NicgBx4uCjsCm0ZhS 6qnp0uHYZYr8rdIzrL3GazyEuG9uvNzZBvIHm92UY1x0NH0TOVbGwJCWKULStvg9S+DjmNgp x8XM9amCtuXZyCiESeoOVRUanzD1JIidJtKgDfxvC63kqYoXl3azP0ra2nZbpktMm2fW5YdN D6kp6otjBH/jtpLay1CpVDS2Ehl3rLXJVUu96hlBnQB8q+64qyhTZ23HnbU+ib5Zb3OFgYoB KHjukJ4tV4x9rQprCQeirKX627vcNniDPnMp/nr9Qww6iVidX2vsG/22cx8MqLfs4B9tOVCJ Ft9D7MOwxOWgKnaYvrPZBOEmnuGq7btQe1tQZukL1Z83jKkV/e43k1gJaRt4Nl3/6YYCAlnn aQwRmySxznojsEl+X41UaJ6QFcoCphucOHoO9MeVzuNzgOgodXXEvlA8OJAqxRbE5AqB0leJ z1PfyrF1lsy8ETPRGKUKPBVed1vpZCQBfd/5RksOYBGhyfQ8p0w0hGs8SG6Xl6UtorJ+baLZ ZtnYbakfroxQBsF4bD/0P4fZ8wvTUDNLT8WN/9KFoTXrKn2pTLD+V9iw6nQAH4LSPw0G8XsL ce3Ihkf/2bvorGCUO7YXG4u6FPzEHsa/ZNfWHA5kbpGfwe2OVYNeI87BTQRYKXEdARAAxYOE 3/AFmEfQ0SVVFujYFhZKX+BGXolYytC2a1soZogVYTIIlypxkRtN+ljteFAY3xX/El7cx5Fx j+uXvLKAm9xQRI/DCug7/NGULMk9bDK5bzSGw817cyiL5Kb+0RkWj2Y5ArOAK6XPGBZWZTHw yIawsSCN9AhDXZQWVRqkR1QXcq3IYKl+OHWMO7+1VfixCSakNf7T/Kiq46rQEPW8Eghk6CVO BR8xUCBbyk5aRW4VSGO6pUD3H21ur+5fTLsVyan1NHhxNNiXfnEJKr+JI5dXSkj7WqA5n8IT aNdFSAttkdT56wAQpxE2h8zaOmBaFUWQ4D8SdXDVymP5QMtLG+ItMMiNV6kXgsRFugAKM5yZ tPP9gIX+ic8QO5iuct37bRXJU/rmrH54Ab0kyAeeRE7oSsfTZPKvgtUh7VLAUEw/wy6TORJH E8JMaX0yYT6h4PGRS3mNM4bka8hjdfcrexI0zSqFOl2I22zQlG3YqSzIvVh98W67hxfAIaCV aTfJLFPEru3drxNwi6ogdkRmcLGKqqTgeYItrvITyFvzqbrcO2exp0KKEK3cDIZypqHHUf4+ uPlDtuExehLsNOMpjP8qhZpFtyLeDS07qunbvstcyvR30wOJ3DyAbHGzq739UyDcO9Jt5jwO DyVwk3MK5Em4pJ0+IAJx+F6gta0Bk2MAEQEAAcLBZQQYAQgADwUCWClxHQIbDAUJCWYBgAAK CRAO2D86RorIs0ykD/4t151SZG9MbeKRVKbs9Ecjady9bO0L3oBos4rhqY12ha8smFlsUzvb gB4CtkBuXQlq+plOBWv+rFEThOzy3bezgEDjlxycoO1W2wJD6E7Fo9fkHT6UOm9fQBkuKRqK 83OGnfM02qP1Ky8d7EoZz+nTSMf/DJgWw1YRKrXkMHBwKD83lCENsmePWE5AjMqk8cojPv9O y1wWy6fHjwx3r+wQSokBNfxgQyAFonmgBbhlic/pZUYRSIcldyUlaomrjFfr4egzmNE7aWDv LwOUYKevBIeJJcqTyfAn3TtJbPCEHOC2+lP6EcmPFyhQdiia+RqOClumqbWOPeQ2VM8j7NWv KKmBNBB5OJ/rmHogbNU+wWPJ723qMBoOp1jIwFNkQhx01W6v55VMwLr+IuBKY1ggJ2BhwQiG pWv4tMc5oB/qVh3my1VO65ErcJ3S9blpwJdDj5/YDOU7BKEmpRUP+xkaryNzH2x7FzrOOHzJ BX6jeYZabGvnTicQlBAzfGpblFqV3YN6EhCF2AHmGLTZ/DrjGYToIsW8cXlEMqN4u8ODEUY0 OhbnytnopKJKk99bwMoCqDkfQvT3LKDWtZj9NzFndfuoKXsVpwAitrG0mau0/16DKDyVWdtJ 9DYmtE40zO6g70VVxUj+dKt2hbJTy/KQTb7Ijhw7wZrGp/P7nhbVyA== Message-ID: Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 10:07:18 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6a2bfe6b-6515-c24b-84dc-8986e42b8f64@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: 29cc722430e8f1f6ed904119444c0d49b0f3ee91 X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 246115766b56dba7f675551df821dbd2 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-limited-domains-00.txt X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 08:07:25 -0000 Hi Brian, Thanks for this. More in-depth comments later, in the mean time I suggest you s/balkanization/fragmentation. Since the negative connotation that is connected to Balkanization is often perceived as insulting and stigmatizing by people from that region. Best, Niels On 06/22/2018 06:50 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Hi, > > This draft is a bit hard to classify, but certainly has an > architectural aspect. We'd be very interested to hear comments > on this list or in the corridors at IETF 102. Hopefully there > will be a few slides at the Hot RFC session on Sunday, and > possibly later in the week too. > > Regards > > Brian & Sheng > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-limited-domains-00.txt > Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 21:55:59 -0700 > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > > > Title : Limited Domains and Internet Protocols > Authors : Brian Carpenter > Sheng Jiang > Filename : draft-carpenter-limited-domains-00.txt > Pages : 12 > Date : 2018-06-10 > > Abstract: > There is a noticeable trend towards network requirements, behaviours > and semantics that are specific to a limited region of the Internet > and a particular set of requirements. Policies, default parameters, > the options supported, the style of network management and security > requirements may vary. This document reviews examples of such > limited domains and emerging solutions. It shows the needs for a > precise definition of a limited domain boundary and for a > corresponding protocol to allow nodes to discover where such a > boundary exists. > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-limited-domains/ > > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-carpenter-limited-domains-00 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-carpenter-limited-domains-00 > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > _______________________________________________ > I-D-Announce mailing list > I-D-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > -- Niels ten Oever Researcher and PhD Candidate Datactive Research Group University of Amsterdam PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 From nobody Fri Jun 22 11:34:14 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0769130EC1 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2018 11:34:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.99 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.99 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=strayalpha.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id khTNccp4i4aC for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2018 11:34:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server217-3.web-hosting.com (server217-3.web-hosting.com [198.54.115.226]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9C562130EC2 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2018 11:34:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=strayalpha.com; s=default; h=To:References:Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject:Mime-Version: Content-Type:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=Zi28I8EvwgVDIFuyxHPo4bpEu2Cpn8rdNegGXG3v1yQ=; b=4n8PKueCgaI7g8F3Q1I2Mtu1I m7bYziioIiVdDlC9WDfxMoOikjwQn7sbEtRd5aooQtB36iKYENxPKRNuDyXqMFSojNYlJcIyrE9m6 gReedBZs33vcJ7xFczgKawbXropO7nkFbNZ3bOXfYDSHARhV09PWDw7A4oB7uvyeToWx1iP9oJsro Utvm9Ty8JqDFpDY+5fHNUWkhpgJfLgHZfiJ9ArHW7OfRUvV21KehglPg1+l5A/jeXOssan0xWO+Nn Y6aiJqNkd3cbDoFJt3Cv1OOwcbXWUI+VrWU6SN0k843c+U3RsJeqoRGKVdzj2CBN9qjnsSK2q9bTI nG5BnSm6Q==; Received: from [172.58.21.109] (port=58305 helo=[IPv6:2607:fb90:5a37:9abd:74a2:e556:9588:441c]) by server217.web-hosting.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1fWQsl-001o1g-6S; Fri, 22 Jun 2018 14:34:06 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Joe Touch X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (15F79) In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 11:34:02 -0700 Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <31BEE999-38C3-4B7D-A227-A7430BC05CE7@strayalpha.com> References: <152869295982.31953.14788689794273532958@ietfa.amsl.com> <6a2bfe6b-6515-c24b-84dc-8986e42b8f64@gmail.com> To: Niels ten Oever X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.2 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server217.web-hosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - strayalpha.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: server217.web-hosting.com: authenticated_id: touch@strayalpha.com X-Authenticated-Sender: server217.web-hosting.com: touch@strayalpha.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-From-Rewrite: unmodified, already matched Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-limited-domains-00.txt X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 18:34:13 -0000 Suggest using =E2=80=98partitioning=E2=80=99 or some other term than fragmen= tation.=20 > On Jun 22, 2018, at 1:07 AM, Niels ten Oever = wrote: >=20 > Hi Brian, >=20 > Thanks for this. More in-depth comments later, in the mean time I > suggest you s/balkanization/fragmentation. Since the negative > connotation that is connected to Balkanization is often perceived as > insulting and stigmatizing by people from that region. >=20 > Best, >=20 > Niels >=20 >> On 06/22/2018 06:50 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> Hi,=20 >>=20 >> This draft is a bit hard to classify, but certainly has an >> architectural aspect. We'd be very interested to hear comments >> on this list or in the corridors at IETF 102. Hopefully there >> will be a few slides at the Hot RFC session on Sunday, and >> possibly later in the week too. >>=20 >> Regards >>=20 >> Brian & Sheng >>=20 >> -------- Forwarded Message -------- >> Subject: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-limited-domains-00.txt >> Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 21:55:59 -0700 >> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org >> Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org >> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org >>=20 >>=20 >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct= ories. >>=20 >>=20 >> Title : Limited Domains and Internet Protocols >> Authors : Brian Carpenter >> Sheng Jiang >> Filename : draft-carpenter-limited-domains-00.txt >> Pages : 12 >> Date : 2018-06-10 >>=20 >> Abstract: >> There is a noticeable trend towards network requirements, behaviours >> and semantics that are specific to a limited region of the Internet >> and a particular set of requirements. Policies, default parameters, >> the options supported, the style of network management and security >> requirements may vary. This document reviews examples of such >> limited domains and emerging solutions. It shows the needs for a >> precise definition of a limited domain boundary and for a >> corresponding protocol to allow nodes to discover where such a >> boundary exists. >>=20 >>=20 >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-limited-domains/ >>=20 >> There are also htmlized versions available at: >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-carpenter-limited-domains-00 >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-carpenter-limited-domains-00 >>=20 >>=20 >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss= ion >> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >>=20 >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> I-D-Announce mailing list >> I-D-Announce@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce >> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html >> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Architecture-discuss mailing list >> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss >>=20 >=20 > --=20 > Niels ten Oever > Researcher and PhD Candidate > Datactive Research Group > University of Amsterdam >=20 > PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 > 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss From nobody Fri Jun 22 13:29:45 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BABE3130F3C for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2018 13:29:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eQMa8QaPcMiq for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2018 13:29:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A6739130F1A for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2018 13:29:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fWSgQ-0000pv-KA; Fri, 22 Jun 2018 22:29:27 +0200 To: Joe Touch Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org References: <152869295982.31953.14788689794273532958@ietfa.amsl.com> <6a2bfe6b-6515-c24b-84dc-8986e42b8f64@gmail.com> <31BEE999-38C3-4B7D-A227-A7430BC05CE7@strayalpha.com> From: Niels ten Oever Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=lists@digitaldissidents.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFgpcR0BEACnfvNwTMlN+pyZT0AFYhWqxG3N4AoPIeNfbxLQH7dk8ZL7Ls05xtORfnu9 ovoaRrZpDufkMviUFidNYePbQNdgf63vWVgwpQR7utluwWraetcmZOu6tayJuyBK2b6d2Z23 MJAQxfa2/GMlN3QkvobaoyKtgbc8rOCgNla7WwkgtiVJ89xbAUHXPFpKWZluVRjaFh4p5C5r 7E5OvUiEGLQ5Cn2ir2PGIyIVqjB+hLTyaI6dIGCz2jtL0RATjmsmYUX7UkU/pz8MPPC2BJ5P KU9pdXMRBhAStxcph8vCo2ze9xSi3+1/5A2ULVtvO4s0hZ+exbTfMxMg3H5CCRFEEJXlQEXa Cd0ZHvqcv5xq8n9w/Ccd0CqYWATIwyP8Jlzd+BY3QGTWnWlgoAbs3Guh/pFYhEFNuuAF5Jk1 k5OlNGsRE/LQJmbT5SE7AtLJLbWewcHlEyIH+K6J8uVa4ExLXmRy+eRkFaxjGy3fLlUpy1Ee 1kU7VsQ/TZ8g8ujsMzxqsdB6y0TD/kVlWaDqPL6F+b+pm3lAuCBGWM1YZROTG58R6pD7sNVm i0ift4dIttAsg+2KoShm9A8kQ3tACXZDgNPC0l7VOqnVayjnF0RmjGeiX7PjOcLQCZ9a5wAH 5mrXMaKvfszqAVkP9HSrk1QVZOipF6vEimL43Czy7Rp1aUaUwwARAQABzShOaWVscyB0ZW4g T2V2ZXIgPG1haWxAbmllbHN0ZW5vZXZlci5uZXQ+wsGZBBMBCABDAhsjBQkJZgGABwsJCAcD AgEGFQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AWIQQkWAtwXEr9ipSIZDoO2D86RorIswUCWyJaFgIZAQAK CRAO2D86RorIs8I2D/wNc4kT+dRC3Y9lSygeVWuxNj21z/QlbNvfXx9NicgBx4uCjsCm0ZhS 6qnp0uHYZYr8rdIzrL3GazyEuG9uvNzZBvIHm92UY1x0NH0TOVbGwJCWKULStvg9S+DjmNgp x8XM9amCtuXZyCiESeoOVRUanzD1JIidJtKgDfxvC63kqYoXl3azP0ra2nZbpktMm2fW5YdN D6kp6otjBH/jtpLay1CpVDS2Ehl3rLXJVUu96hlBnQB8q+64qyhTZ23HnbU+ib5Zb3OFgYoB KHjukJ4tV4x9rQprCQeirKX627vcNniDPnMp/nr9Qww6iVidX2vsG/22cx8MqLfs4B9tOVCJ Ft9D7MOwxOWgKnaYvrPZBOEmnuGq7btQe1tQZukL1Z83jKkV/e43k1gJaRt4Nl3/6YYCAlnn aQwRmySxznojsEl+X41UaJ6QFcoCphucOHoO9MeVzuNzgOgodXXEvlA8OJAqxRbE5AqB0leJ z1PfyrF1lsy8ETPRGKUKPBVed1vpZCQBfd/5RksOYBGhyfQ8p0w0hGs8SG6Xl6UtorJ+baLZ ZtnYbakfroxQBsF4bD/0P4fZ8wvTUDNLT8WN/9KFoTXrKn2pTLD+V9iw6nQAH4LSPw0G8XsL ce3Ihkf/2bvorGCUO7YXG4u6FPzEHsa/ZNfWHA5kbpGfwe2OVYNeI87BTQRYKXEdARAAxYOE 3/AFmEfQ0SVVFujYFhZKX+BGXolYytC2a1soZogVYTIIlypxkRtN+ljteFAY3xX/El7cx5Fx j+uXvLKAm9xQRI/DCug7/NGULMk9bDK5bzSGw817cyiL5Kb+0RkWj2Y5ArOAK6XPGBZWZTHw yIawsSCN9AhDXZQWVRqkR1QXcq3IYKl+OHWMO7+1VfixCSakNf7T/Kiq46rQEPW8Eghk6CVO BR8xUCBbyk5aRW4VSGO6pUD3H21ur+5fTLsVyan1NHhxNNiXfnEJKr+JI5dXSkj7WqA5n8IT aNdFSAttkdT56wAQpxE2h8zaOmBaFUWQ4D8SdXDVymP5QMtLG+ItMMiNV6kXgsRFugAKM5yZ tPP9gIX+ic8QO5iuct37bRXJU/rmrH54Ab0kyAeeRE7oSsfTZPKvgtUh7VLAUEw/wy6TORJH E8JMaX0yYT6h4PGRS3mNM4bka8hjdfcrexI0zSqFOl2I22zQlG3YqSzIvVh98W67hxfAIaCV aTfJLFPEru3drxNwi6ogdkRmcLGKqqTgeYItrvITyFvzqbrcO2exp0KKEK3cDIZypqHHUf4+ uPlDtuExehLsNOMpjP8qhZpFtyLeDS07qunbvstcyvR30wOJ3DyAbHGzq739UyDcO9Jt5jwO DyVwk3MK5Em4pJ0+IAJx+F6gta0Bk2MAEQEAAcLBZQQYAQgADwUCWClxHQIbDAUJCWYBgAAK CRAO2D86RorIs0ykD/4t151SZG9MbeKRVKbs9Ecjady9bO0L3oBos4rhqY12ha8smFlsUzvb gB4CtkBuXQlq+plOBWv+rFEThOzy3bezgEDjlxycoO1W2wJD6E7Fo9fkHT6UOm9fQBkuKRqK 83OGnfM02qP1Ky8d7EoZz+nTSMf/DJgWw1YRKrXkMHBwKD83lCENsmePWE5AjMqk8cojPv9O y1wWy6fHjwx3r+wQSokBNfxgQyAFonmgBbhlic/pZUYRSIcldyUlaomrjFfr4egzmNE7aWDv LwOUYKevBIeJJcqTyfAn3TtJbPCEHOC2+lP6EcmPFyhQdiia+RqOClumqbWOPeQ2VM8j7NWv KKmBNBB5OJ/rmHogbNU+wWPJ723qMBoOp1jIwFNkQhx01W6v55VMwLr+IuBKY1ggJ2BhwQiG pWv4tMc5oB/qVh3my1VO65ErcJ3S9blpwJdDj5/YDOU7BKEmpRUP+xkaryNzH2x7FzrOOHzJ BX6jeYZabGvnTicQlBAzfGpblFqV3YN6EhCF2AHmGLTZ/DrjGYToIsW8cXlEMqN4u8ODEUY0 OhbnytnopKJKk99bwMoCqDkfQvT3LKDWtZj9NzFndfuoKXsVpwAitrG0mau0/16DKDyVWdtJ 9DYmtE40zO6g70VVxUj+dKt2hbJTy/KQTb7Ijhw7wZrGp/P7nhbVyA== Message-ID: Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 22:29:25 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <31BEE999-38C3-4B7D-A227-A7430BC05CE7@strayalpha.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Authenticated-As-Hash: 29cc722430e8f1f6ed904119444c0d49b0f3ee91 X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 92147cc26b2e14e0b1010f762ef587ae Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-limited-domains-00.txt X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 20:29:41 -0000 Fragmentation seems to be the term that is used in the literature though: https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Will+the+Internet+Fragment%3F%3A+Sovereignty%2C+Globalization+and+Cyberspace-p-9781509501229 https://www.weforum.org/reports/internet-fragmentation-an-overview Best, Niels On 06/22/2018 08:34 PM, Joe Touch wrote: > Suggest using ‘partitioning’ or some other term than fragmentation. > >> On Jun 22, 2018, at 1:07 AM, Niels ten Oever wrote: >> >> Hi Brian, >> >> Thanks for this. More in-depth comments later, in the mean time I >> suggest you s/balkanization/fragmentation. Since the negative >> connotation that is connected to Balkanization is often perceived as >> insulting and stigmatizing by people from that region. >> >> Best, >> >> Niels >> >>> On 06/22/2018 06:50 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> This draft is a bit hard to classify, but certainly has an >>> architectural aspect. We'd be very interested to hear comments >>> on this list or in the corridors at IETF 102. Hopefully there >>> will be a few slides at the Hot RFC session on Sunday, and >>> possibly later in the week too. >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Brian & Sheng >>> >>> -------- Forwarded Message -------- >>> Subject: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-limited-domains-00.txt >>> Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 21:55:59 -0700 >>> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org >>> Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org >>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org >>> >>> >>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. >>> >>> >>> Title : Limited Domains and Internet Protocols >>> Authors : Brian Carpenter >>> Sheng Jiang >>> Filename : draft-carpenter-limited-domains-00.txt >>> Pages : 12 >>> Date : 2018-06-10 >>> >>> Abstract: >>> There is a noticeable trend towards network requirements, behaviours >>> and semantics that are specific to a limited region of the Internet >>> and a particular set of requirements. Policies, default parameters, >>> the options supported, the style of network management and security >>> requirements may vary. This document reviews examples of such >>> limited domains and emerging solutions. It shows the needs for a >>> precise definition of a limited domain boundary and for a >>> corresponding protocol to allow nodes to discover where such a >>> boundary exists. >>> >>> >>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-limited-domains/ >>> >>> There are also htmlized versions available at: >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-carpenter-limited-domains-00 >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-carpenter-limited-domains-00 >>> >>> >>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission >>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >>> >>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> I-D-Announce mailing list >>> I-D-Announce@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce >>> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html >>> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Architecture-discuss mailing list >>> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss >>> >> >> -- >> Niels ten Oever >> Researcher and PhD Candidate >> Datactive Research Group >> University of Amsterdam >> >> PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 >> 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Architecture-discuss mailing list >> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > -- Niels ten Oever Researcher and PhD Candidate Datactive Research Group University of Amsterdam PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 From nobody Fri Jun 22 16:05:03 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDFE3130F12 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2018 16:05:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cWtFmluvLoTc for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2018 16:04:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F3F91130F0E for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2018 16:04:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1fWV6m-0009I2-Jc; Fri, 22 Jun 2018 19:04:48 -0400 Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 19:04:42 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Niels ten Oever , Joe Touch cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <152869295982.31953.14788689794273532958@ietfa.amsl.com> <6a2bfe6b-6515-c24b-84dc-8986e42b8f64@gmail.com> <31BEE999-38C3-4B7D-A227-A7430BC05CE7@strayalpha.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-limited-domains-00.txt X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 23:05:02 -0000 There is a different sort of whatever-one-wants-to-call it going on here. In the Internet Governance and political literature, "fragmentation" has been popular. In significantly more technical contexts, that term has a very different meaning (presumably the source of Joe's objection) and hence other terms may be preferred. Of course, because the term has at least two very different meanings where the Internet is concerned, it would be possible to take exception to the use of "domain" as well. IMO, Brian and Sheng should use the terminology that, in their judgment, is most likely to make the document accessible to their audience, preferably without offending anyone. Speaking personally, this appears to be an interesting document and I would much rather see discussions of its substance than quibbling about terminology in a draft this early in its lifecycle. YMMD. john --On Friday, June 22, 2018 22:29 +0200 Niels ten Oever wrote: > Fragmentation seems to be the term that is used in the > literature though: > > https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Will+the+Internet+Fragment%3F%3A+S > overeignty%2C+Globalization+and+Cyberspace-p-9781509501229 > > https://www.weforum.org/reports/internet-fragmentation-an-over > view > > Best, > > Niels > > On 06/22/2018 08:34 PM, Joe Touch wrote: >> Suggest using 'partitioning' or some other term than >> fragmentation. >> >>> On Jun 22, 2018, at 1:07 AM, Niels ten Oever >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Brian, >>> >>> Thanks for this. More in-depth comments later, in the mean >>> time I suggest you s/balkanization/fragmentation. Since the >>> negative connotation that is connected to Balkanization is >>> often perceived as insulting and stigmatizing by people from >>> that region. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Niels >>> >>>> On 06/22/2018 06:50 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> This draft is a bit hard to classify, but certainly has an >>>> architectural aspect. We'd be very interested to hear >>>> comments on this list or in the corridors at IETF 102. >>>> Hopefully there will be a few slides at the Hot RFC session >>>> on Sunday, and possibly later in the week too. >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> >>>> Brian & Sheng >>>> >>>> -------- Forwarded Message -------- >>>> Subject: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-limited-domains-00.txt >>>> Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 21:55:59 -0700 >>>> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org >>>> Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org >>>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org >>>> >>>> >>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line >>>> Internet-Drafts directories. >>>> >>>> >>>> Title : Limited Domains and Internet >>>> Protocols Authors : Brian Carpenter Sheng >>>> Jiang >>>> Filename : draft-carpenter-limited-domains-00.txt >>>> Pages : 12 >>>> Date : 2018-06-10 >>>> >>>> Abstract: >>>> There is a noticeable trend towards network requirements, >>>> behaviours and semantics that are specific to a limited >>>> region of the Internet and a particular set of >>>> requirements. Policies, default parameters, the options >>>> supported, the style of network management and security >>>> requirements may vary. This document reviews examples of >>>> such limited domains and emerging solutions. It shows >>>> the needs for a precise definition of a limited domain >>>> boundary and for a corresponding protocol to allow nodes >>>> to discover where such a boundary exists. >>>> >>>> >>>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-limited-do >>>> mains/ >>>> >>>> There are also htmlized versions available at: >>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-carpenter-limited-domains >>>> -00 >>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-carpenter-limit >>>> ed-domains-00 >>>> >>>> >>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the >>>> time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are >>>> available at tools.ietf.org. >>>> >>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> I-D-Announce mailing list >>>> I-D-Announce@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce >>>> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html >>>> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Architecture-discuss mailing list >>>> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Niels ten Oever >>> Researcher and PhD Candidate >>> Datactive Research Group >>> University of Amsterdam >>> >>> PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 >>> 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Architecture-discuss mailing list >>> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss From nobody Fri Jun 22 16:39:03 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41635130F19 for ; 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Fri, 22 Jun 2018 16:38:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.38] ([118.148.121.80]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a11-v6sm11339296pgq.32.2018.06.22.16.38.51 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 22 Jun 2018 16:38:52 -0700 (PDT) To: Niels ten Oever , Joe Touch Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org References: <152869295982.31953.14788689794273532958@ietfa.amsl.com> <6a2bfe6b-6515-c24b-84dc-8986e42b8f64@gmail.com> <31BEE999-38C3-4B7D-A227-A7430BC05CE7@strayalpha.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <7692fe94-b8f6-e978-d30d-4d178017c890@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2018 11:38:59 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-limited-domains-00.txt X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 23:39:02 -0000 Niels, I take the point, but the Balkanization term has been used historically in our community, and it has an explicit emotional overtone that no politically correct term will provide. And it's only mentioned *in quotes* to indicate that it's out of scope for the draft. Joe is correct, 'fragmentation' is a term of art in IP so really doesn't work. I quite like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splinternet. But, again, that isn't what the draft is about. Regards Brian On 23/06/2018 08:29, Niels ten Oever wrote: > Fragmentation seems to be the term that is used in the literature thoug= h: >=20 > https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Will+the+Internet+Fragment%3F%3A+Sovereignt= y%2C+Globalization+and+Cyberspace-p-9781509501229 >=20 > https://www.weforum.org/reports/internet-fragmentation-an-overview >=20 > Best, >=20 > Niels >=20 > On 06/22/2018 08:34 PM, Joe Touch wrote: >> Suggest using =E2=80=98partitioning=E2=80=99 or some other term than f= ragmentation.=20 >> >>> On Jun 22, 2018, at 1:07 AM, Niels ten Oever wrote: >>> >>> Hi Brian, >>> >>> Thanks for this. More in-depth comments later, in the mean time I >>> suggest you s/balkanization/fragmentation. Since the negative >>> connotation that is connected to Balkanization is often perceived as >>> insulting and stigmatizing by people from that region. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Niels >>> >>>> On 06/22/2018 06:50 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>> Hi,=20 >>>> >>>> This draft is a bit hard to classify, but certainly has an >>>> architectural aspect. We'd be very interested to hear comments >>>> on this list or in the corridors at IETF 102. Hopefully there >>>> will be a few slides at the Hot RFC session on Sunday, and >>>> possibly later in the week too. >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> >>>> Brian & Sheng >>>> >>>> -------- Forwarded Message -------- >>>> Subject: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-limited-domains-00.txt >>>> Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 21:55:59 -0700 >>>> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org >>>> Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org >>>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org >>>> >>>> >>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts d= irectories. >>>> >>>> >>>> Title : Limited Domains and Internet Protocols >>>> Authors : Brian Carpenter >>>> Sheng Jiang >>>> Filename : draft-carpenter-limited-domains-00.txt >>>> Pages : 12 >>>> Date : 2018-06-10 >>>> >>>> Abstract: >>>> There is a noticeable trend towards network requirements, behaviou= rs >>>> and semantics that are specific to a limited region of the Interne= t >>>> and a particular set of requirements. Policies, default parameter= s, >>>> the options supported, the style of network management and securit= y >>>> requirements may vary. This document reviews examples of such >>>> limited domains and emerging solutions. It shows the needs for a >>>> precise definition of a limited domain boundary and for a >>>> corresponding protocol to allow nodes to discover where such a >>>> boundary exists. >>>> >>>> >>>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-limited-domains/ >>>> >>>> There are also htmlized versions available at: >>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-carpenter-limited-domains-00 >>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-carpenter-limited-domain= s-00 >>>> >>>> >>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of su= bmission >>>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.= >>>> >>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> I-D-Announce mailing list >>>> I-D-Announce@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce >>>> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html >>>> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Architecture-discuss mailing list >>>> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss >>>> >>> >>> --=20 >>> Niels ten Oever >>> Researcher and PhD Candidate >>> Datactive Research Group >>> University of Amsterdam >>> >>> PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 >>> 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Architecture-discuss mailing list >>> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss >> >=20 From nobody Mon Jun 25 06:14:29 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D06E130DE8 for ; Mon, 25 Jun 2018 06:14:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pj6k4jkq2tmh for ; Mon, 25 Jun 2018 06:14:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x22e.google.com (mail-wr0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 286B4130DE7 for ; Mon, 25 Jun 2018 06:14:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id f16-v6so13658667wrm.3 for ; Mon, 25 Jun 2018 06:14:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=oFpCZCw/gCp6dt2dYRlFJxlJvaD3XWFIyO8f/aJF4A0=; b=Ibdg/NgqpL5a+I9v0zcMSSL54IV/wHLpxPXnTkHKP1ALzGMyBlnOrPyrmtRySUTGRd Plyuwb5HtiguGQwb7a96dP/AVaE8Rvc8/nLIcPaAZP1TUz+ePbNiaE1gJ0GcZXg5CeOv 7omZ9HHAP8u0e0rGlG09Hhe3A8MxknpMmQscUf4zmrGI7V2J7cFUYY2LrF6pH6ngUuo6 zAxx0rslCttW3uvoaCXA1MH9U4DjoS+FoUnEqB0YMpInWnUIhb3rrx8MIl3e7SA8MCPx 1h40G9OpWEX2cRZVm3SQrYuYyGC8ftMCDHlOR788tvdF/g2i7Hbmcl+YIGxb7KIwbgF/ sasw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=oFpCZCw/gCp6dt2dYRlFJxlJvaD3XWFIyO8f/aJF4A0=; b=FnLwjH4EthrhfYNvSQvPDQoLeOJEFGhqhy/Kc9UGLResFhzPa2qTX6KBWp8Wb122qH MaE6GFUF4UzQMLhsjKjbEbbMgS/Uzp9q+iEDfp0eT/Mj4FnIKPC5mzudx1nMVpG/k0n2 +5k4IvwTqbXYvnEHevO/icPBM1w7HCRqZkSwycGyG5SBm9OtNMZYUhAq4Jok8SZbx3zB jg4RluBA6QK+v72UyYSKPwh84YvJ3HiJwfMewQF4cPj3pTGbXIn/DdG8ZDBMnVwxqkIB LYUKIs3AVLeVqRZG9YrD00BqDkNJ+0lduC2lOiouqaTq9+Rc8Fk1ehQj4U8is1yef0Ll uInw== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E0cVVhVg5irMrUqaKHABABOAUL4pje5QA2mVJfVN9358K1gF6LG I9FpH1otoKt/edj0I3HU4/p23so5 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpcgOWwWp92lQ2jnzlrd4xTx8pJu9kAEj+fjnfbbK5rHZVHUbcacD9S9wM0NBj+x9spHN02Brg== X-Received: by 2002:adf:cc8e:: with SMTP id p14-v6mr9425228wrj.226.1529932462164; Mon, 25 Jun 2018 06:14:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.105] (host213-123-124-182.in-addr.btopenworld.com. [213.123.124.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p2-v6sm4444285wrn.31.2018.06.25.06.14.21 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 25 Jun 2018 06:14:21 -0700 (PDT) To: Brian E Carpenter , Niels ten Oever , Joe Touch Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org References: <152869295982.31953.14788689794273532958@ietfa.amsl.com> <6a2bfe6b-6515-c24b-84dc-8986e42b8f64@gmail.com> <31BEE999-38C3-4B7D-A227-A7430BC05CE7@strayalpha.com> <7692fe94-b8f6-e978-d30d-4d178017c890@gmail.com> From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: <8c9129cf-6657-ae3e-7984-8e572b405354@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2018 14:14:20 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7692fe94-b8f6-e978-d30d-4d178017c890@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-limited-domains-00.txt X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2018 13:14:28 -0000 Brian There are many non-PC expressions that used to succinctly express concepts in their time. However we are now more enlightened, and out of respect for others we have ceased to use them. Perhaps the word "partitioned" would work in your document? - Stewart On 23/06/2018 00:38, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Niels, > > I take the point, but the Balkanization term has been used > historically in our community, and it has an explicit emotional > overtone that no politically correct term will provide. And it's > only mentioned *in quotes* to indicate that it's out of scope for > the draft. > > Joe is correct, 'fragmentation' is a term of art in IP so really > doesn't work. I quite like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splinternet. > But, again, that isn't what the draft is about. > > Regards > Brian > > On 23/06/2018 08:29, Niels ten Oever wrote: >> Fragmentation seems to be the term that is used in the literature though: >> >> https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Will+the+Internet+Fragment%3F%3A+Sovereignty%2C+Globalization+and+Cyberspace-p-9781509501229 >> >> https://www.weforum.org/reports/internet-fragmentation-an-overview >> >> Best, >> >> Niels >> >> On 06/22/2018 08:34 PM, Joe Touch wrote: >>> Suggest using ‘partitioning’ or some other term than fragmentation. >>> >>>> On Jun 22, 2018, at 1:07 AM, Niels ten Oever wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Brian, >>>> >>>> Thanks for this. More in-depth comments later, in the mean time I >>>> suggest you s/balkanization/fragmentation. Since the negative >>>> connotation that is connected to Balkanization is often perceived as >>>> insulting and stigmatizing by people from that region. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Niels >>>> >>>>> On 06/22/2018 06:50 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> This draft is a bit hard to classify, but certainly has an >>>>> architectural aspect. We'd be very interested to hear comments >>>>> on this list or in the corridors at IETF 102. Hopefully there >>>>> will be a few slides at the Hot RFC session on Sunday, and >>>>> possibly later in the week too. >>>>> >>>>> Regards >>>>> >>>>> Brian & Sheng >>>>> >>>>> -------- Forwarded Message -------- >>>>> Subject: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-limited-domains-00.txt >>>>> Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 21:55:59 -0700 >>>>> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org >>>>> Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org >>>>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Title : Limited Domains and Internet Protocols >>>>> Authors : Brian Carpenter >>>>> Sheng Jiang >>>>> Filename : draft-carpenter-limited-domains-00.txt >>>>> Pages : 12 >>>>> Date : 2018-06-10 >>>>> >>>>> Abstract: >>>>> There is a noticeable trend towards network requirements, behaviours >>>>> and semantics that are specific to a limited region of the Internet >>>>> and a particular set of requirements. Policies, default parameters, >>>>> the options supported, the style of network management and security >>>>> requirements may vary. This document reviews examples of such >>>>> limited domains and emerging solutions. It shows the needs for a >>>>> precise definition of a limited domain boundary and for a >>>>> corresponding protocol to allow nodes to discover where such a >>>>> boundary exists. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-limited-domains/ >>>>> >>>>> There are also htmlized versions available at: >>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-carpenter-limited-domains-00 >>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-carpenter-limited-domains-00 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission >>>>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >>>>> >>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> I-D-Announce mailing list >>>>> I-D-Announce@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce >>>>> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html >>>>> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Architecture-discuss mailing list >>>>> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> Niels ten Oever >>>> Researcher and PhD Candidate >>>> Datactive Research Group >>>> University of Amsterdam >>>> >>>> PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 >>>> 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Architecture-discuss mailing list >>>> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss From nobody Mon Jun 25 13:30:27 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FE3B130E40 for ; 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Mon, 25 Jun 2018 13:30:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.38] ([118.148.121.80]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h16-v6sm22938262pfn.80.2018.06.25.13.30.18 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 25 Jun 2018 13:30:21 -0700 (PDT) To: Stewart Bryant , Niels ten Oever , Joe Touch Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org References: <152869295982.31953.14788689794273532958@ietfa.amsl.com> <6a2bfe6b-6515-c24b-84dc-8986e42b8f64@gmail.com> <31BEE999-38C3-4B7D-A227-A7430BC05CE7@strayalpha.com> <7692fe94-b8f6-e978-d30d-4d178017c890@gmail.com> <8c9129cf-6657-ae3e-7984-8e572b405354@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 08:30:16 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8c9129cf-6657-ae3e-7984-8e572b405354@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-limited-domains-00.txt X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2018 20:30:26 -0000 On 26/06/2018 01:14, Stewart Bryant wrote: > Brian >=20 > There are many non-PC expressions that used to succinctly express=20 > concepts in their time. However we are now more enlightened, and out of= =20 > respect for others we have ceased to use them. >=20 > Perhaps the word "partitioned" would work in your document? Not without an explanation. "Splintering" is the best I've found, but it still doesn't convey the issue without extra verbiage. Regardless, we're not going to update the draft for this alone. What do you think about the actual content? Brian >=20 > - Stewart >=20 >=20 > On 23/06/2018 00:38, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> Niels, >> >> I take the point, but the Balkanization term has been used >> historically in our community, and it has an explicit emotional >> overtone that no politically correct term will provide. And it's >> only mentioned *in quotes* to indicate that it's out of scope for >> the draft. >> >> Joe is correct, 'fragmentation' is a term of art in IP so really >> doesn't work. I quite like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splinternet. >> But, again, that isn't what the draft is about. >> >> Regards >> Brian >> >> On 23/06/2018 08:29, Niels ten Oever wrote: >>> Fragmentation seems to be the term that is used in the literature tho= ugh: >>> >>> https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Will+the+Internet+Fragment%3F%3A+Sovereig= nty%2C+Globalization+and+Cyberspace-p-9781509501229 >>> >>> https://www.weforum.org/reports/internet-fragmentation-an-overview >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Niels >>> >>> On 06/22/2018 08:34 PM, Joe Touch wrote: >>>> Suggest using =E2=80=98partitioning=E2=80=99 or some other term than= fragmentation. >>>> >>>>> On Jun 22, 2018, at 1:07 AM, Niels ten Oever wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Brian, >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for this. More in-depth comments later, in the mean time I >>>>> suggest you s/balkanization/fragmentation. Since the negative >>>>> connotation that is connected to Balkanization is often perceived a= s >>>>> insulting and stigmatizing by people from that region. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Niels >>>>> >>>>>> On 06/22/2018 06:50 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> This draft is a bit hard to classify, but certainly has an >>>>>> architectural aspect. We'd be very interested to hear comments >>>>>> on this list or in the corridors at IETF 102. Hopefully there >>>>>> will be a few slides at the Hot RFC session on Sunday, and >>>>>> possibly later in the week too. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards >>>>>> >>>>>> Brian & Sheng >>>>>> >>>>>> -------- Forwarded Message -------- >>>>>> Subject: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-limited-domains-00.txt >>>>>> Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 21:55:59 -0700 >>>>>> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org >>>>>> Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org >>>>>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts= directories. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Title : Limited Domains and Internet Protocols >>>>>> Authors : Brian Carpenter >>>>>> Sheng Jiang >>>>>> Filename : draft-carpenter-limited-domains-00.txt >>>>>> Pages : 12 >>>>>> Date : 2018-06-10 >>>>>> >>>>>> Abstract: >>>>>> There is a noticeable trend towards network requirements, behav= iours >>>>>> and semantics that are specific to a limited region of the Inte= rnet >>>>>> and a particular set of requirements. Policies, default parame= ters, >>>>>> the options supported, the style of network management and secu= rity >>>>>> requirements may vary. This document reviews examples of such >>>>>> limited domains and emerging solutions. It shows the needs for= a >>>>>> precise definition of a limited domain boundary and for a >>>>>> corresponding protocol to allow nodes to discover where such a >>>>>> boundary exists. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-limited-domains/ >>>>>> >>>>>> There are also htmlized versions available at: >>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-carpenter-limited-domains-00 >>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-carpenter-limited-doma= ins-00 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission >>>>>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.or= g. >>>>>> >>>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >>>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> I-D-Announce mailing list >>>>>> I-D-Announce@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce >>>>>> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html >>>>>> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Architecture-discuss mailing list >>>>>> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss >>>>>> >>>>> --=20 >>>>> Niels ten Oever >>>>> Researcher and PhD Candidate >>>>> Datactive Research Group >>>>> University of Amsterdam >>>>> >>>>> PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 >>>>> 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Architecture-discuss mailing list >>>>> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss >> _______________________________________________ >> Architecture-discuss mailing list >> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss >=20 >=20 From nobody Sat Jun 30 15:27:43 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D626130F4C for ; Sat, 30 Jun 2018 15:27:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EedXYaZfDq0x for ; Sat, 30 Jun 2018 15:27:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl0-x235.google.com (mail-pl0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D27E7130F2F for ; Sat, 30 Jun 2018 15:27:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl0-x235.google.com with SMTP id c41-v6so6138903plj.10 for ; 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Sat, 30 Jun 2018 15:27:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.38] ([118.148.121.80]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a24-v6sm2269755pfj.140.2018.06.30.15.27.34 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 30 Jun 2018 15:27:36 -0700 (PDT) References: <153039735256.26387.5393044887262478491@ietfa.amsl.com> To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Cc: Sheng Jiang From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <153039735256.26387.5393044887262478491@ietfa.amsl.com> Message-ID: <01fa4938-fe11-b533-ec77-c4b0f4d432bf@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2018 10:27:32 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <153039735256.26387.5393044887262478491@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-limited-domains-01.txt X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2018 22:27:42 -0000 A small update clarifying the scope of the draft. More comments, please! Brian + Sheng -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-limited-domains-01.txt Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2018 15:22:32 -0700 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : Limited Domains and Internet Protocols Authors : Brian Carpenter Sheng Jiang Filename : draft-carpenter-limited-domains-01.txt Pages : 12 Date : 2018-06-30 Abstract: There is a noticeable trend towards network requirements, behaviours and semantics that are specific to a limited region of the Internet and a particular set of requirements. Policies, default parameters, the options supported, the style of network management and security requirements may vary. This document reviews examples of such limited domains and emerging solutions. It shows the needs for a precise definition of a limited domain boundary and for a corresponding protocol to allow nodes to discover where such a boundary exists. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-limited-domains/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-carpenter-limited-domains-01 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-carpenter-limited-domains-01 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-carpenter-limited-domains-01 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt