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Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="KSRVZBs9jsu2x0GPDNn8oeUAlOwbkSX9x" Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] workshop reports (was: Re: IAB report to the community for IETF 103) X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2018 09:31:47 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --KSRVZBs9jsu2x0GPDNn8oeUAlOwbkSX9x Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="0Apa59kKSBBiuqgMwQDGWO8XhBc8jHZZc"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Message-ID: <5ca53917-d476-a518-7b75-ecb2a532b75e@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: workshop reports (was: Re: IAB report to the community for IETF 103) References: In-Reply-To: --0Apa59kKSBBiuqgMwQDGWO8XhBc8jHZZc Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------0D3E6DBC9BBF7C7FACB81354" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------0D3E6DBC9BBF7C7FACB81354 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 01/11/2018 07:25, Ted Hardie wrote: > Given both the time it takes to produce workshop reports in RFC form an= d > the occasional mismatch between the style of the workshop and the archi= val > format of the RFCs, the IAB is now considering whether it would be usef= ul > to allow workshop organizers to consider other publication forms. A we= b > page maintained by the IAB on its own site, linked to the original call= for > participation, is one form under consideration. The IAB is interested i= n > feedback on this approach and would welcome any thoughts on it; we expe= ct > discussion to take place on architecture-discuss@iab.org. Good idea. Coupla notes: - some workshops are jointly organised with other bodies - don't insist on iab.org web pages being the primary w/s site in all cases, e.g. w3c's w/s tooling was better back when we did the strint w/s. - it may be easier for some w/s organisers to use their own web tooling for pre-w/s materials, compared to getting write access to web pages @ iab.org; a model where the iab.org web pages are a clone of something else might be good - do allow both web pages and an optional RFC at the end, some of those RFCs are useful in retrospect, e.g. to know who was proposing what some years down the road - there are some w/s things that are better well-archived which the RFC series achieves nicely Cheers, S. PS: The email address in the quoted text may be wrong, it says "@iab.org" and should (I think?) be "@ietf.org" --------------0D3E6DBC9BBF7C7FACB81354 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 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<5ca53917-d476-a518-7b75-ecb2a532b75e@cs.tcd.ie> From: Brian E Carpenter Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Message-ID: <2a120aa2-0fe0-aa48-9cc3-ed3101b2c672@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 16:46:33 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5ca53917-d476-a518-7b75-ecb2a532b75e@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] workshop reports X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2018 03:46:43 -0000 On 2018-11-01 22:31, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > On 01/11/2018 07:25, Ted Hardie wrote: >> Given both the time it takes to produce workshop reports in RFC form and >> the occasional mismatch between the style of the workshop and the archival >> format of the RFCs, the IAB is now considering whether it would be useful >> to allow workshop organizers to consider other publication forms. A web >> page maintained by the IAB on its own site, linked to the original call for >> participation, is one form under consideration. The IAB is interested in >> feedback on this approach and would welcome any thoughts on it; we expect >> discussion to take place on architecture-discuss@iab.org. > > Good idea. Certainly a good idea to be flexible. However, if a workshop is a success and comes up with specific guidelines or recommendations for the IETF, I think an RFC is highly desirable, both to reach our community and for archival. It doesn't need to be a complete workshop report - shorter might even be better, with the full details in a web-based report. Brian > Coupla notes: > > - some workshops are jointly organised with other bodies - don't > insist on iab.org web pages being the primary w/s site in all > cases, e.g. w3c's w/s tooling was better back when we did the > strint w/s. > - it may be easier for some w/s organisers to use their own web > tooling for pre-w/s materials, compared to getting write access > to web pages @ iab.org; a model where the iab.org web pages are > a clone of something else might be good > - do allow both web pages and an optional RFC at the end, some > of those RFCs are useful in retrospect, e.g. to know who was > proposing what some years down the road - there are some w/s > things that are better well-archived which the RFC series > achieves nicely > > Cheers, > S. > > PS: The email address in the quoted text may be wrong, it says > "@iab.org" and should (I think?) be "@ietf.org" > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > From nobody Sat Nov 3 20:56:49 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28A88130DCB for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2018 20:56:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CyDo5m4L8NRq for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2018 20:56:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x541.google.com (mail-pg1-x541.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::541]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76B6A130DC8 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2018 20:56:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x541.google.com with SMTP id r9-v6so2682550pgv.6 for ; Sat, 03 Nov 2018 20:56:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=9v6X8c9VEirSYWlmBYV+npnlHWCeiqQ2Z4f2K5TW+Us=; b=AMzjl6p0FR56IQ6Y19p0UrC3QpC4IQst0NBWfpqQcMf+cJZjCdGKJF4OXEEj5v7Trn B0gcqRfhZb8Z3RecWZqTJT3MNcrCESO5E/j/XNBEfM1Muhg1WiKD2LIx6kH5hrSWZi+Z T+hbSeLNMl0ilnWfvPgjzbd+WfK354U6eAtOUXIN7IgRPICPBiTVgrA1HfwJaQf68nEe +Oah+bVPiq7BzGcWiZxrZnackfl/rIG0SL2SSw95KETWAGO5Ul+ZUpXFO8uwtv0EgnFP TAGl9psBC9FIHnlP0b0NTOusFYY5o+oWG6filWJUSosx2Lx8e1xvlQLRNU2VktooiSsE etuA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=9v6X8c9VEirSYWlmBYV+npnlHWCeiqQ2Z4f2K5TW+Us=; b=SNTtTsZE0pi1/uoF2qN3MQ9LYkkWPq6PzPi2PV2NWet7H+h0fYxDc45OEeOmu7ncki 8A/RyYN4JsIcvzLtGrC2XE0inDmu7RJ5xMBsezhzDOsi/JiVE4vKL4nELy0VOYrr7Xnw kWwZ1YHDfjyvTJZvLfshC+yStQXnuGgFhZxhMy2mpSS2upsnyUTQCo9AbCCrNSzeehbm M71oKoKXqBRZQxcSwCfMR16P9ndLSrWsE1vlCA80LF1wGkn30CYQQzpNVehYVbJg7VrH k+4Ckl+FwccuZvt3vTjM3quYdTJqdu4rqKcElZ0xGmgxNUPQnwDiYHGTvjT3UovMUKa9 efsA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gJcD1PvTLYXO/QWVDDKIsMO747RraSmsiSRXXkHVW8H1NxuuL02 egIsUS8AzkkaUC148YvlCEqJ1bgEr8s= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5doOm2a07Bz43tkDGbtvUVsPvzwT3Uhoepu56HDKal19rXGIzDfUR14NNKB+MX519H4ZUzX/g== X-Received: by 2002:a63:1302:: with SMTP id i2-v6mr16335735pgl.380.1541303804751; Sat, 03 Nov 2018 20:56:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:67c:1232:144:dcaf:a5ed:9d78:d47d? ([2001:67c:1232:144:dcaf:a5ed:9d78:d47d]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b16-v6sm41111689pgl.66.2018.11.03.20.56.43 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 03 Nov 2018 20:56:44 -0700 (PDT) To: Brian E Carpenter , Stephen Farrell Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" References: <5ca53917-d476-a518-7b75-ecb2a532b75e@cs.tcd.ie> <2a120aa2-0fe0-aa48-9cc3-ed3101b2c672@gmail.com> From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 03:56:42 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2a120aa2-0fe0-aa48-9cc3-ed3101b2c672@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] workshop reports X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2018 03:56:47 -0000 On 04/11/2018 03:46, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 2018-11-01 22:31, Stephen Farrell wrote: >> On 01/11/2018 07:25, Ted Hardie wrote: >>> Given both the time it takes to produce workshop reports in RFC form and >>> the occasional mismatch between the style of the workshop and the archival >>> format of the RFCs, the IAB is now considering whether it would be useful >>> to allow workshop organizers to consider other publication forms. A web >>> page maintained by the IAB on its own site, linked to the original call for >>> participation, is one form under consideration. The IAB is interested in >>> feedback on this approach and would welcome any thoughts on it; we expect >>> discussion to take place on architecture-discuss@iab.org. >> Good idea. > Certainly a good idea to be flexible. However, if a workshop is a success > and comes up with specific guidelines or recommendations for the IETF, > I think an RFC is highly desirable, both to reach our community and > for archival. It doesn't need to be a complete workshop report - shorter > might even be better, with the full details in a web-based report. > > Brian I find the current IETF trend away from archival format worrysome. If a workshop is worth holding, and is not held under Chatam House rules, it needs to be archived so as to leave a permenent record of the deliberations. This allows others to read a definative report of the thoughts of those present at any time in the future. - Stewart From nobody Sun Nov 4 20:47:29 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F610128B14 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2018 20:47:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MHmQH09cxNoJ for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2018 20:47:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x430.google.com (mail-wr1-x430.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::430]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 14580128BCC for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2018 20:47:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x430.google.com with SMTP id o15-v6so4268787wrv.4 for ; Sun, 04 Nov 2018 20:47:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=KtegT/t3M0La9/QbfQurSnjRWwquGUykQQCHzKwyCHM=; b=DjB4HHZtTDgPKx8R/iz9cFMauJoX0KXIbLFDVvIwjjZvkEXv7TNvd6Y6THHfU7mar3 868Ka3qzZu0UdzdOt6P/OsQQOM7yrhtyA4NZQl+cgrh5/+q1ZB+nXQU34MM4JKySHVrH LRXNrglCAvyFGJxZBBfd2uuMFrNv2sPytwyxXZKc0UTa8LbihiZgcFXz4R+i6CeVnah/ EP6fLA6wd9x4XcTUHcQv4Y7pr+VxnLs6WXbuzkiQcbPksTN87/guV81ytozo05rHPZwX OATtAsQTRY56RB0Afg26azIDulB6R707LEhR8ngrA02u6V9LpIIm4vlOXMymRuKcx8O7 FeRw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=KtegT/t3M0La9/QbfQurSnjRWwquGUykQQCHzKwyCHM=; b=O+/jUfNkqdkZ0Uv0P6K4m/N766MjF37D+B8vXtB6xW0GQG+yT7lUmo2hBnM/K0FJK0 M2ine+14+NYk+8KPx/9dLgQT9gh8bXCJEUWTy9u+CZwl4/rY/kQeN94JyWf5mFt/pVfO SSzzNCsh2j+ZeT0MdcYdOeiamQnv6QsuJseJoBd/OuLptbnXgIRDgYYbYAn51H+m0cGZ fzNrnobKhb690R7qb1liwSQKos/98Gh9XpmITv2GukwLQR9h5gSeXpDprztMWRR0EVH+ N7k59Y+j8bcLinwdNfaevb/THnRXEc/SgCVeqM3G7JFI2jiIJ7MXm7iwF9F5R6buv+II Ouww== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gJjz9hejmW8lpgmC6y/hEaNNh5Fhxoq6B0f48DR+niEBqzrH7g5 Vu9aPLOFIaW7bXLbxJpuOGI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5fVbD0BepCG+t7/NU6ZPJtrWvuSO8u++cBqrOnhjUuK7+c6/SEDaGOi2yX7O2wF3w95JydhWg== X-Received: by 2002:adf:ecc5:: with SMTP id s5-v6mr8202346wro.208.1541393243563; Sun, 04 Nov 2018 20:47:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:67c:370:128:698e:3137:4798:c8ab? ([2001:67c:370:128:698e:3137:4798:c8ab]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p17-v6sm7562569wmc.16.2018.11.04.20.47.19 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 04 Nov 2018 20:47:22 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <36657425-0A39-4700-B5CC-39462C8646A1@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_053C211E-C95D-45AC-9269-CD592C9BE270"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2018 11:47:15 +0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: Bob Hinden , Brian Carpenter , Stephen Farrell , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" To: Stewart Bryant References: <5ca53917-d476-a518-7b75-ecb2a532b75e@cs.tcd.ie> <2a120aa2-0fe0-aa48-9cc3-ed3101b2c672@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] workshop reports X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2018 04:47:27 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_053C211E-C95D-45AC-9269-CD592C9BE270 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Nov 4, 2018, at 10:56 AM, Stewart Bryant = wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 04/11/2018 03:46, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> On 2018-11-01 22:31, Stephen Farrell wrote: >>> On 01/11/2018 07:25, Ted Hardie wrote: >>>> Given both the time it takes to produce workshop reports in RFC = form and >>>> the occasional mismatch between the style of the workshop and the = archival >>>> format of the RFCs, the IAB is now considering whether it would be = useful >>>> to allow workshop organizers to consider other publication forms. = A web >>>> page maintained by the IAB on its own site, linked to the original = call for >>>> participation, is one form under consideration. The IAB is = interested in >>>> feedback on this approach and would welcome any thoughts on it; we = expect >>>> discussion to take place on architecture-discuss@iab.org. >>> Good idea. >> Certainly a good idea to be flexible. However, if a workshop is a = success >> and comes up with specific guidelines or recommendations for the = IETF, >> I think an RFC is highly desirable, both to reach our community and >> for archival. It doesn't need to be a complete workshop report - = shorter >> might even be better, with the full details in a web-based report. >>=20 >> Brian >=20 > I find the current IETF trend away from archival format worrysome. >=20 > If a workshop is worth holding, and is not held under Chatam House = rules, it needs to be archived so as to leave a permenent record of the = deliberations. This allows others to read a definative report of the = thoughts of those present at any time in the future. >=20 I agree. I don=E2=80=99t understand that statement: > Given both the time it takes to produce workshop reports in RFC form = and > the occasional mismatch between the style of the workshop and the = archival > format of the RFCs, Writing clear workshop report is always difficult, this seems to = independent of the form it is published. The hard part is the writing, = not the formatting. Why does publishing in RFC format cause = difficulties? Thanks, Bob --Apple-Mail=_053C211E-C95D-45AC-9269-CD592C9BE270 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAlvfy1MACgkQrut0EXfn u6hv4wf/SawWL+8RuHcMRqm0xDcuAdRtkLAMtsefXyCiPJtGXzjgSAFiQ5/uCvhf 3FuOHykmkDiqLIW//WGAX2km7oydS+MYgmRJqbgeT1BkdvrxVqbsgEvvZEecaaEx 3ubypyaYP0dc6GPuEOgNdPNfQtWYP0Mv6E7RRPpq9LrwJFivPX9+HgPPOZolD8R/ xMMP34oCJTHtfnE0FLcZD4XGekHKzp8vz5zwetkELJhrvbYg5RmyBWnhK4XYGFl0 pCiy084GTOs50TFE1kUXM2FLCmjPhMxvYpJIBf7rm0SyvME9xnf9cArMpaVzrNsv pJQrPGXhoaecU6N8IRt7YHd/j1YuFQ== =Tsv+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_053C211E-C95D-45AC-9269-CD592C9BE270-- From nobody Sun Nov 4 21:01:18 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82793128B14 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2018 21:01:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NLrnzUxgPTkH for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2018 21:01:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x231.google.com (mail-oi1-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF8A81277C8 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2018 21:01:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x231.google.com with SMTP id c25-v6so6411646oiy.0 for ; Sun, 04 Nov 2018 21:01:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=lW19aJT8I5npzQlBveLUXEDqUfcfDEqycz0aSO23d+g=; b=oH4pEEiI6LFOOLLpPpEbApogXb7mJbh7Bp1fMGx6SLrqztgyr5MR++dfB0ri2MXEm+ YD9ZkiNlgLytmtY9e7QsWtMaCQMGswCyeKcznnIulsDUUp9AHZlnKnaI88Av4XQ28K88 4TExQ7Fm9WLu8LcY+kLo4Ne3UCYvnYKDRHPWZu8sQoO4dmxWpCg+AcTy9Lj70QLhMctT g2pHROtuT+8SfslNVK9gPv9gvc0VHIKfa19+QwZ/8LKDRIY73IPZ4eL4j7vpbmX/3qbQ fpdsxuA0rZiT6ufGrtvjIzW15hIqZgiW7bO0AWojd9w0CgKbbuRzIjFuLTE8hqoRYJZW B6xA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=lW19aJT8I5npzQlBveLUXEDqUfcfDEqycz0aSO23d+g=; b=qYYCdIYJpVeC1C7/Dadcar3t1w8htx6LPqi/kNOnyCqYq42tUAducDtgElUMlC0yBT 3e5lDpwLXRq+HibDUKbzvgvtj0nGDYcRUOGNwMeFhlqwBafW9/GW4Sk1iX6qD+YrLJCu oM2M1rZCrS/O649YZvC358790x1U4186pGNiMzfulGDYioU6cKzgU9rvfnT8Hhy7yY7r X2r1LOHOyeNgBa57Md0dZf6gARKDFJVni9pmeTFX7SSb/uwxsTGmGrivF9zALScnceMn MpOYLl8+SKO2eeD4vwo8sL743NLg6gljii61/ZeSSukT9gLrKen62KQZXlPpQXJ09SAP EGvA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gLeQAMROCGLYOSZrt7nUGp74yescXJqXZ1zrnLN191aDNTE7Qiz 1CFpip9dkBn7/FaHydiXwZ9wy2uXNNofBQgABaY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5dOf4c3cgU7M/8on7f9A3uwDd6+z3fCzBH3ZCx3QBnrgNPbM3tC2OuNlKShJmxs1rpkwLt+JE9c7ggNIfWaVYU= X-Received: by 2002:aca:62c3:: with SMTP id w186-v6mr1445011oib.320.1541394072937; Sun, 04 Nov 2018 21:01:12 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5ca53917-d476-a518-7b75-ecb2a532b75e@cs.tcd.ie> <2a120aa2-0fe0-aa48-9cc3-ed3101b2c672@gmail.com> <36657425-0A39-4700-B5CC-39462C8646A1@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <36657425-0A39-4700-B5CC-39462C8646A1@gmail.com> From: Ted Hardie Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2018 12:00:45 +0700 Message-ID: To: Bob Hinden Cc: Stewart Bryant , architecture-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002d2b4e0579e3c680" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] workshop reports X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2018 05:01:16 -0000 --0000000000002d2b4e0579e3c680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 11:47 AM Bob Hinden wrote: > Quoting Stewart Bryant > > > > > I find the current IETF trend away from archival format worrysome. > > > > If a workshop is worth holding, and is not held under Chatam House > rules, it needs to be archived so as to leave a permenent record of the > deliberations. This allows others to read a definative report of the > thoughts of those present at any time in the future. > > > > I agree. > > I don=E2=80=99t understand that statement: > > > Given both the time it takes to produce workshop reports in RFC form an= d > > the occasional mismatch between the style of the workshop and the > archival > > format of the RFCs, > > > Writing clear workshop report is always difficult, this seems to > independent of the form it is published. > A small portion of the time in the production of an RFC is actually in the RFC production itself, either by the authors or by the RFC production center. What seems to be more important, though, is that the archival form means you have to wait for the whole to be ready before publishing the report. For a number of workshop reports, there are useful elements available much sooner, and those can be relatively easily linked to the web page created when the workshop is in preparation. Since that site also often has links to the submissions, the mailing list archive, and similar context, having early elements of the report visible there seems useful. See the IOTSI site for an example: https://www.iab.org/activities/workshops/iotsi/ Of course, you can then incorporate these early elements into an RFC later when you are completely done, but there is a real question of whether that will always add a lot. The other issue is that some IAB workshops are joint with other bodies, and their procedures and methods may prefer other toolsets. The forthcoming ESCAPE workshop, for example, is intended to be joint work with the W3C TAG, which has a different set of document preferences. The IAB hasn't come to a conclusion here, and I appreciate the thought folks have put into the discussion so far. thanks, Ted > The hard part is the writing, not the formatting. Why does publishing i= n > RFC format cause difficulties? > > Thanks, > Bob > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > --0000000000002d2b4e0579e3c680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 11:47 AM Bob Hinde= n <bob.hinden@gmail.com> = wrote:
Quoting Stewart Bryant

>
> I find the current IETF trend away from archival format worrysome.
>
> If a workshop is worth holding, and is not held under Chatam House rul= es, it needs to be archived so as to leave a permenent record of the delibe= rations. This allows others to read a definative report of the thoughts of = those present at any time in the future.
>

I agree.

I don=E2=80=99t understand that statement:

> Given both the time it takes to produce workshop reports in RFC form a= nd
> the occasional mismatch between the style of the workshop and the arch= ival
> format of the RFCs,


Writing clear workshop report is always difficult, this seems to independen= t of the form it is published.=C2=A0

A small portion of the time in the production of an RFC is actually in the= RFC production itself, either by the authors or by the RFC production cent= er.=C2=A0 What seems to be more important, though, is that the archival for= m means you have to wait for the whole to be ready before publishing the re= port.=C2=A0 For a number of workshop reports, there are useful elements ava= ilable much sooner, and those can be relatively easily linked to the web pa= ge created when the workshop is in preparation.=C2=A0 Since that site also = often has links to the submissions, the mailing list archive, and similar c= ontext, having early elements of the report visible there seems useful.=C2= =A0 See the IOTSI site for an example:


Of course, you can then = incorporate these early elements into an RFC later when you are completely = done, but there is a real question of whether that will always add a lot. <= br>

The other issue is that some IAB workshops are= joint with other bodies, and their procedures and methods may prefer other= toolsets.=C2=A0 The forthcoming ESCAPE workshop, for example, is intended = to be joint work with the W3C TAG, which has a different set of document pr= eferences.

The IAB hasn't come to a conclusion= here, and I appreciate the thought folks have put into the discussion so f= ar.

thanks,

Ted
=
=C2=A0The hard part = is the writing, not the formatting.=C2=A0 Why does publishing in RFC format= cause difficulties?

Thanks,
Bob





_______________________________________________
Architecture-discuss mailing list
Architec= ture-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/arc= hitecture-discuss
--0000000000002d2b4e0579e3c680-- From nobody Sun Nov 4 22:07:19 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 807A112F1AC for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2018 22:07:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wze9Ovpiys2s for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2018 22:06:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x234.google.com (mail-lj1-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B0B4B12EB11 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2018 22:06:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x234.google.com with SMTP id e5-v6so2758894lja.4 for ; Sun, 04 Nov 2018 22:06:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ixI6wk61j6svimK9u0xRWaX1L/9FJK/an9mdN/blTng=; b=Ff4IICR8prJLM4NiMzARf5CPBQDHBdkIAVZvvIzuJMcn6AmjebiYhvCuk31ZN+WYv1 qMG2XZ04Kht4VSJKBSrg/QYaX4BaGr6ZVWKKjc/6Fq1/phifId5DIIbFw8XUcwF41uBa OdOEO8NZpq/iH1L+/nNElIztdA6n2gp4nBtrxwyudq/42Ws1SJPGQqjYS/N+sEpyE1Bz t5cNCwFIuIzwUPzdmr+S4DNCMoeGnXoXLG+DodjLXu74OJkcp9Khn5gwzMW/brdQJmbm AdqTxKf44dH7cL+OO1q+7UMC04THzOSuPkKsPZ0GW0uubGxxEbgB9aiDROUj6t1HymF1 qCMg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ixI6wk61j6svimK9u0xRWaX1L/9FJK/an9mdN/blTng=; b=Ye/Wg0bkZZ5LeStxV4ZP3QDpKkIsfYuIH5jbcQCg+jGT9aMcrvbBokXPVrDsJwTc8I 5p9EzTl2tk3Mx02trBwwxJI8f7uQn7dMJdG/MLKz+zygo0Vn6sH5Il4YDw1j+xrcs2Ia g7e+pIe3/4sQr+ufkCz8B26b2khglHOxZCbV4WOnd5HPrUuLu114CHhYgp29V5VzlZ29 Ikfu85I6hGsVJ4bIhZGIPPY9P3e2zUnt67YV3dvAInyl36nM8Dny7WrtA+ZkaiiwPG26 tmsmTNd/9aKUbVhiFgt2tt8Zc6Jwq26cJAExk+a0NfibHbhfxB3z2kJAMjz99BHhe73q l97Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gI7oex5FYZIWVI6bfrVz+UMDeeuY8Ehk9QVcoDZecqlOU6x0Fki nKVFXMd1eeNq0JnVDyIKbwybGivEcNGSJjEZdW0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5ddEPfOjkILwnJuqgG3CW3z66ihhdej2wxIZY8f+KnZbHr+woTssfjqpMqL6qaNupR/eEb5v86h6ypvFoaj/K4= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9819:: with SMTP id a25-v6mr14481197ljj.6.1541398014674; Sun, 04 Nov 2018 22:06:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5ca53917-d476-a518-7b75-ecb2a532b75e@cs.tcd.ie> <2a120aa2-0fe0-aa48-9cc3-ed3101b2c672@gmail.com> <36657425-0A39-4700-B5CC-39462C8646A1@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2018 13:06:42 +0700 Message-ID: To: Ted Hardie Cc: Bob Hinden , architecture-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001f567f0579e4b1b2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] workshop reports X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2018 06:07:03 -0000 --0000000000001f567f0579e4b1b2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Speaking as the surviving editor for the MaRNEW workshop report which happened in 2015 and was finally published in October 2018 (but I recognize that every case is different) ... On Mon, Nov 5, 2018, 12:01 Ted Hardie On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 11:47 AM Bob Hinden wrote: > >> Quoting Stewart Bryant >> >> > >> > I find the current IETF trend away from archival format worrysome. >> > >> > If a workshop is worth holding, and is not held under Chatam House >> rules, it needs to be archived so as to leave a permenent record of the >> deliberations. This allows others to read a definative report of the >> thoughts of those present at any time in the future. >> > >> >> I agree. >> > You're right. I think there's a tension between the minutes which are usually available in weeks, in the cases I've been involved with, and the workshop reports, which are ... not. Maybe that's a helpful point to push on. I don=E2=80=99t understand that statement: >> >> > Given both the time it takes to produce workshop reports in RFC form a= nd >> > the occasional mismatch between the style of the workshop and the >> archival >> > format of the RFCs, >> >> >> Writing clear workshop report is always difficult, this seems to >> independent of the form it is published. >> > > A small portion of the time in the production of an RFC is actually in th= e > RFC production itself, either by the authors or by the RFC production > center. What seems to be more important, though, is that the archival fo= rm > means you have to wait for the whole to be ready before publishing the > report. For a number of workshop reports, there are useful elements > available much sooner, and those can be relatively easily linked to the w= eb > page created when the workshop is in preparation. Since that site also > often has links to the submissions, the mailing list archive, and similar > context, having early elements of the report visible there seems useful. > See the IOTSI site for an example: > > https://www.iab.org/activities/workshops/iotsi/ > > Of course, you can then incorporate these early elements into an RFC late= r > when you are completely done, but there is a real question of whether tha= t > will always add a lot. > You're also right, which would point toward putting up a working version early and publishing a stable version later, except ... The other issue is that some IAB workshops are joint with other bodies, and > their procedures and methods may prefer other toolsets. The forthcoming > ESCAPE workshop, for example, is intended to be joint work with the W3C > TAG, which has a different set of document preferences. > You're also right about this. I appreciate the work the IAB is doing to decide what the right thing is, so that it can be done. Spencer The IAB hasn't come to a conclusion here, and I appreciate the thought > folks have put into the discussion so far. > > thanks, > > Ted > >> The hard part is the writing, not the formatting. Why does publishing >> in RFC format cause difficulties? >> >> Thanks, >> Bob >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Architecture-discuss mailing list >> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > --0000000000001f567f0579e4b1b2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Speaking as the surviving editor for the MaRNEW work= shop report which happened in 2015 and was finally published in October 201= 8 (but I recognize that every case is different) ...

On Mon, Nov 5, 2018, 12:01 Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Nov = 5, 2018 at 11:47 AM Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com> wrote:
Quoting Stewart Bryant

>
> I find the current IETF trend away from archival format worrysome.
>
> If a workshop is worth holding, and is not held under Chatam House rul= es, it needs to be archived so as to leave a permenent record of the delibe= rations. This allows others to read a definative report of the thoughts of = those present at any time in the future.
>

I agree.
<= div dir=3D"auto">
You're right. I think ther= e's a tension between the minutes which are usually available in weeks,= in the cases I've been involved with, and the workshop reports, which = are ... not. Maybe that's a helpful point to push on.

I don=E2=80=99t u= nderstand that statement:

> Given both the time it takes to produce workshop reports in RFC form a= nd
> the occasional mismatch between the style of the workshop and the arch= ival
> format of the RFCs,


Writing clear workshop report is always difficult, this seems to independen= t of the form it is published.=C2=A0

A small portion of the time in the production of an RFC is actually in the= RFC production itself, either by the authors or by the RFC production cent= er.=C2=A0 What seems to be more important, though, is that the archival for= m means you have to wait for the whole to be ready before publishing the re= port.=C2=A0 For a number of workshop reports, there are useful elements ava= ilable much sooner, and those can be relatively easily linked to the web pa= ge created when the workshop is in preparation.=C2=A0 Since that site also = often has links to the submissions, the mailing list archive, and similar c= ontext, having early elements of the report visible there seems useful.=C2= =A0 See the IOTSI site for an example:

Of course, you can then incorporate these early elements into = an RFC later when you are completely done, but there is a real question of = whether that will always add a lot.

You're also= right, which would point toward putting up a working version early and pub= lishing a stable version later, except ...

<= div>The other issue is that some IAB workshops are joint with other bodies,= and their procedures and methods may prefer other toolsets.=C2=A0 The fort= hcoming ESCAPE workshop, for example, is intended to be joint work with the= W3C TAG, which has a different set of document preferences.

You're also right about this. I appreciate the work the IAB i= s doing to decide what the right thing is, so that it can be done.

Spencer
<= br>
The IAB hasn't come to a conclusion here, and I appreciate = the thought folks have put into the discussion so far.

thanks,

Ted
=C2=A0The hard part is the writing, not = the formatting.=C2=A0 Why does publishing in RFC format cause difficulties?=

Thanks,
Bob





_______________________________________________
Architecture-discuss mailing list
Architecture-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l= istinfo/architecture-discuss
_______________________________________________
Architecture-discuss mailing list
Architecture-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l= istinfo/architecture-discuss
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Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <154344212322.13692.8912412627900013388.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="WGG7O5qeykW3B35yMC1bZCr51UJ3u9Cth" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Call for Comment: (Transport Protocol Path Signals) X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2018 22:21:47 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --WGG7O5qeykW3B35yMC1bZCr51UJ3u9Cth Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="aF49v3kZkfu8aD0N63Omu267LiCEYsqly"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: iab@iab.org, architecture-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <51f5338d-8f44-c0a7-950e-a221d3379409@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: Call for Comment: (Transport Protocol Path Signals) References: <154344212322.13692.8912412627900013388.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <154344212322.13692.8912412627900013388.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> --aF49v3kZkfu8aD0N63Omu267LiCEYsqly Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------0636030C8113ABBECDB22485" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------0636030C8113ABBECDB22485 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 28/11/2018 21:55, IAB Executive Administrative Manager wrote: > The Call for Comment will last until 2018-12-25. Please send comments t= o > architecture-discuss@ietf.org and iab@iab.org. Dec 25th, heh. Sorry for sending mine early without any gift wrapping:-) Seems fairly reasonable but two comments. 1. I'd recommend avoiding the term consent - IMO our industry has sullied that term too much for it to be usable. I'm also not sure whether a machine/program can consent to anything anyway. Perhaps talk about authorisation instead in your pinhole example. 2. Integrity protecting explicit signals - I'm not sure we know how to do that in many or perhaps even most of the relevant scenarios. What I mean is that arranging keying so that an endpoint or middlebox can integrity protect something to be meaningfully verified by another, possibly unknown, middlebox... is hard. And gets harder if you somehow need integrity in both "directions." (I've seen that issue going right back to digital signatures on X.400 delivery notifications, so it's been around quite a while, without, IIUC, being solved.) If the IAB feel you know how to do that then it'd likely be good to say how, or point at some working solutions illustrating what you mean. If you're recommending that we do that, and it turns out not to be easily doable then that might just add to the e2e/middlebox tussle, instead of helping to resolve it, as I'm sure is the intent. If you're less sure you know how to solve that one, then saying that and encouraging work in the space would seem to be as strong a recommendation as you can make. 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+0000 Received: from [10.230.24.220] ([10.230.24.220]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id wAUBx4uL006374 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 30 Nov 2018 11:59:04 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: <81796A5A-313E-46D3-88A8-8559E4ADD2DD@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9FF1B219-569A-4E5B-8F09-72C04EBBF9C8"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.1 \(3445.101.1\)) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2018 11:59:03 +0000 In-Reply-To: <51f5338d-8f44-c0a7-950e-a221d3379409@cs.tcd.ie> Cc: iab@iab.org, architecture-discuss@ietf.org To: Stephen Farrell References: <154344212322.13692.8912412627900013388.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <51f5338d-8f44-c0a7-950e-a221d3379409@cs.tcd.ie> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.101.1) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.230.24.220, [10.230.24.220] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Call for Comment: (Transport Protocol Path Signals) X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2018 11:59:09 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_9FF1B219-569A-4E5B-8F09-72C04EBBF9C8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 28 Nov 2018, at 22:21, Stephen Farrell = wrote: >=20 > Signed PGP part >=20 >=20 > On 28/11/2018 21:55, IAB Executive Administrative Manager wrote: >> The Call for Comment will last until 2018-12-25. Please send comments = to >> architecture-discuss@ietf.org and iab@iab.org. >=20 > Dec 25th, heh. Sorry for sending mine early without any > gift wrapping:-) >=20 > Seems fairly reasonable but two comments. >=20 > 1. I'd recommend avoiding the term consent - IMO our industry > has sullied that term too much for it to be usable. I'm also > not sure whether a machine/program can consent to anything > anyway. Perhaps talk about authorisation instead in your > pinhole example. I agree that consent is a challenging term, and as used in the document = it is implied consent, but not necessarily meaningful consent. I wonder = if intent is a better phrasing. It too is overused these days, but at = least then you can talk about whose intent and whether that person is = authorised to even have an opinion ;-) Is it the intent of the designer = of the tool or the intent of the administrator, or someone else? Intent = is sometimes easy to determine and sometimes hard. For general purposes = applications and tools, it may be impossible at scale (I don=E2=80=99t = know): today we are all once again witnessing another uPnP fiasco. And = even if there are single-use applications, if they reside on a general = use device, it is also quite difficult (albeit perhaps not impossible). Eliot --Apple-Mail=_9FF1B219-569A-4E5B-8F09-72C04EBBF9C8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAlwBJgcACgkQh7ZrRtnS ejN3nwgA04cKoy6Vd9d4T4G4IwR8cAW4XClPDnNRCa3CsjBhVlAmes8y2QyAL971 +8ss17UPkuLIPbEdQCM40SSlVvOM1CwTfGGpilcAGBhQOYIiYoO1zmbyRfUjyQIv Gdvn/POV54D8+FVbzHA7UqTb0WosPFOQVszRDd2OkjCgDV9atux3m1ZVo5HjGNSX mGbzC6v4UjDOkoWwy2rDkJTsgEvF/j6Uy0yRHl4R1RyL/pW0CKb74LLlgkMUe3Wp Y/gyBh5UiND37vxT1EM1xMnogcZmVUI1Y1uJokUgSs5ANt0q73GjC6qXCTL/DAMH Xj0EPFynKArmUMgO1R8Faw0qutKfYA== =IU4K -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_9FF1B219-569A-4E5B-8F09-72C04EBBF9C8-- From nobody Fri Nov 30 12:51:46 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05B5F131004 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2018 12:51:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E6Ggq7jJ6T7Y for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2018 12:51:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x329.google.com (mail-ot1-x329.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::329]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BF22113104E for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2018 12:51:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x329.google.com with SMTP id t5so6382855otk.1 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2018 12:51:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=+6YO9CZI4yVf58VpCBBXEGMQARy4Id/fQtnlbuTLEAc=; b=JUIBgrvzYGcpjwC+j5VcKwuoFSxelyiD6TNmvp+AeNvqynoauwrXa7naAgIRaYwZUL vXnc6i9bdsmMBWoh181IKKpWEiX8CIbJmWyqTKCNArJyre6btwnih1j2RPS6CFJbC4kU 9AMInNTvBktIo/Hp+mPGZl8vVYkuloiAzVHXjhrNJ2TrB+kXYr4v7gFSAP3sd/dzzITv BN8Qmbj+QeQ4jKShSw8kCYZAo028cpck1lXN/TcK8CDqFb5Gv2MQu+uCcjNvTTo6DDDl /T+SEftLEzEZR9gFQGKAt1VEf/LaOEiBlvSEKTTeGLlc9C6r9TO3A/ed7EvLJjbZQY6/ Z9Ew== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+6YO9CZI4yVf58VpCBBXEGMQARy4Id/fQtnlbuTLEAc=; b=CvXUrD9+67fZHcQyAVzh588ObsQ1yuXnyRSl0AKjPmAz5FlnZ6MkQraZKjxKleo8oF 0Ow1HUd3XOppdDsuLhlrr2PEb1eY1A6xyE3Da8XyhQbOZ2Y1A8qIoEJtVCwEwh7Pwa7k GUsKHWegdP+3eyGFkmz3UffzlxFY2PJcBw3rCZGNAkuHp1zj6RQ0uQ0XFbVVu5AyJrwp W6bxMqTrPXphY3xVVxugwsX5wby2VgiOl5K+04UzeFywmPpR3xUTF88xLACTL0LHOuy9 cf9X3EMytLLhPcl7SgPTSOL0yq2EoBO1PJ5gNWv4WfKDzrMKD9vxFCLoFKXA9i/F1wDp JaDg== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWYC21n+hQrarPTmHH2LPGys5QORaJFgdpI56j4gFnE5Vs/gSrBE C7LLp2ujj9EUMnJovRQkI3kBqT272Xe7a3NmlzI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/VEm+mLtJ04pxDNj6HGGBEGbUkeBW8D8Xhx0VzTZxlbnt1DB7EuR3fyP3XKxI+4lVwjiVukQHa9IQOcS4EeRdg= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:27e3:: with SMTP id c90mr4237737otb.21.1543611100570; Fri, 30 Nov 2018 12:51:40 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <154344212322.13692.8912412627900013388.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <51f5338d-8f44-c0a7-950e-a221d3379409@cs.tcd.ie> <81796A5A-313E-46D3-88A8-8559E4ADD2DD@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <81796A5A-313E-46D3-88A8-8559E4ADD2DD@cisco.com> From: Ted Hardie Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2018 12:51:13 -0800 Message-ID: To: Eliot Lear Cc: Stephen Farrell , Internet Architecture Board , architecture-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005227d4057be7f7d5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] [IAB] Call for Comment: (Transport Protocol Path Signals) X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2018 20:51:45 -0000 --0000000000005227d4057be7f7d5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks to both of you for the review. Trying to synthesize it, I'm wondering if the following works, and I'd appreciate your feedback. 3.1.2. Routability and Intent A second common inference that session establishment provides is that the communicating pair of hosts can each reach each other and are interested in continuing communication. The firewall example given above is a consequence of that inference; because the internal host initiates the connection, it is presumed to want to receive return traffic. That, in turn justifies the pinhole. Some other on-path elements assume that a host which asked to communicate with a remote address has authorized receiving incoming communications from any other host (Endpoint-Independent Mapping/ Endpoint-Independent Filtering). This is, for example, the default behavior in NAT64. Is this better? regards, Ted On Fri, Nov 30, 2018 at 3:59 AM Eliot Lear wrote: > > > > On 28 Nov 2018, at 22:21, Stephen Farrell > wrote: > > > > Signed PGP part > > > > > > On 28/11/2018 21:55, IAB Executive Administrative Manager wrote: > >> The Call for Comment will last until 2018-12-25. Please send comments = to > >> architecture-discuss@ietf.org and iab@iab.org. > > > > Dec 25th, heh. Sorry for sending mine early without any > > gift wrapping:-) > > > > Seems fairly reasonable but two comments. > > > > 1. I'd recommend avoiding the term consent - IMO our industry > > has sullied that term too much for it to be usable. I'm also > > not sure whether a machine/program can consent to anything > > anyway. Perhaps talk about authorisation instead in your > > pinhole example. > > > I agree that consent is a challenging term, and as used in the document i= t > is implied consent, but not necessarily meaningful consent. I wonder if > intent is a better phrasing. It too is overused these days, but at least > then you can talk about whose intent and whether that person is authorise= d > to even have an opinion ;-) Is it the intent of the designer of the tool > or the intent of the administrator, or someone else? Intent is sometimes > easy to determine and sometimes hard. For general purposes applications > and tools, it may be impossible at scale (I don=E2=80=99t know): today we= are all > once again witnessing another uPnP fiasco. And even if there are > single-use applications, if they reside on a general use device, it is al= so > quite difficult (albeit perhaps not impossible). > > Eliot > --0000000000005227d4057be7f7d5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks to both of you for the review.=C2=A0 Trying to= synthesize it, I'm wondering if the following works, and I'd appre= ciate your feedback.

3.1.2.  Routability and Intent

   A second common inference that session establishment provides is that
   the communicating pair of hosts can each reach each other and are
   interested in continuing communication.  The firewall example given
   above is a consequence of that inference; because the
   internal host initiates the connection, it is presumed to want
   to receive return traffic.  That, in turn justifies the pinhole.

   Some other on-path elements assume that a host which asked to
   communicate with a remote address has authorized receiving incoming
   communications from any other host (Endpoint-Independent Mapping/
   Endpoint-Independent Filtering).  This is, for example, the default
   behavior in NAT64.

Is this better?

r=
egards,

Ted

On Fri, Nov 30, 2018 at 3:59 AM Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:


> On 28 Nov 2018, at 22:21, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wr= ote:
>
> Signed PGP part
>
>
> On 28/11/2018 21:55, IAB Executive Administrative Manager wrote:
>> The Call for Comment will last until 2018-12-25. Please send comme= nts to
>> architecture-discuss@ietf.org and iab@iab.org.
>
> Dec 25th, heh. Sorry for sending mine early without any
> gift wrapping:-)
>
> Seems fairly reasonable but two comments.
>
> 1. I'd recommend avoiding the term consent - IMO our industry
> has sullied that term too much for it to be usable. I'm also
> not sure whether a machine/program can consent to anything
> anyway. Perhaps talk about authorisation instead in your
> pinhole example.


I agree that consent is a challenging term, and as used in the document it = is implied consent, but not necessarily meaningful consent.=C2=A0 I wonder = if intent is a better phrasing.=C2=A0 It too is overused these days, but at= least then you can talk about whose intent and whether that person is auth= orised to even have an opinion ;-)=C2=A0 Is it the intent of the designer o= f the tool or the intent of the administrator, or someone else?=C2=A0 Inten= t is sometimes easy to determine and sometimes hard.=C2=A0 For general purp= oses applications and tools, it may be impossible at scale (I don=E2=80=99t= know): today we are all once again witnessing another uPnP fiasco.=C2=A0 A= nd even if there are single-use applications, if they reside on a general u= se device, it is also quite difficult (albeit perhaps not impossible).

Eliot
--0000000000005227d4057be7f7d5-- From nobody Fri Nov 30 12:56:34 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3AA5131001 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2018 12:56:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TTcAZb8Q80dB for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2018 12:56:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3EC88130F11 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2018 12:56:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09497BE2D; Fri, 30 Nov 2018 20:56:27 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id agi3j882Fkii; Fri, 30 Nov 2018 20:56:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.244.2.138] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1379FBE2C; Fri, 30 Nov 2018 20:56:23 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1543611383; bh=7znSSI473WOO0KkaTdoIQHdShX2HoSXMFVj6ivGywHs=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=GVDvC+qqfGtzTO62VR3lyAW3iK4gdZMoczVbe5pfX8R8q5ugIjqmEUyjLWg27eLLo VKKUDr88j6iAdtgVh2UxyvYvzoz36tIstPmBY/wsiQxlHMWKyoT24ohlFasGfOk0Qt GhrESWIydsKuSlILl9VOK4w3921ZUshK7FgyiG5U= To: Ted Hardie , Eliot Lear Cc: Internet Architecture Board , architecture-discuss@ietf.org References: <154344212322.13692.8912412627900013388.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <51f5338d-8f44-c0a7-950e-a221d3379409@cs.tcd.ie> <81796A5A-313E-46D3-88A8-8559E4ADD2DD@cisco.com> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; 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Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="H3YRdFRlQfVwQYTH3EUv07RlwNgoQg3ab" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] [IAB] Call for Comment: (Transport Protocol Path Signals) X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2018 20:56:32 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --H3YRdFRlQfVwQYTH3EUv07RlwNgoQg3ab Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Ogc7E7LES0xqJY8C4iaHBSr2AIOKoDVdz"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Ted Hardie , Eliot Lear Cc: Internet Architecture Board , architecture-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [IAB] [arch-d] Call for Comment: (Transport Protocol Path Signals) References: <154344212322.13692.8912412627900013388.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <51f5338d-8f44-c0a7-950e-a221d3379409@cs.tcd.ie> <81796A5A-313E-46D3-88A8-8559E4ADD2DD@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: --Ogc7E7LES0xqJY8C4iaHBSr2AIOKoDVdz Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------E1973675E912FED3132BE99C" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------E1973675E912FED3132BE99C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 30/11/2018 20:51, Ted Hardie wrote: > Thanks to both of you for the review. Trying to synthesize it, I'm > wondering if the following works, and I'd appreciate your feedback Sure, that sorts my first point nicely. Cheers, S. >=20 > 3.1.2. Routability and Intent >=20 > A second common inference that session establishment provides is tha= t > the communicating pair of hosts can each reach each other and are > interested in continuing communication. The firewall example given > above is a consequence of that inference; because the > internal host initiates the connection, it is presumed to want > to receive return traffic. That, in turn justifies the pinhole. >=20 > Some other on-path elements assume that a host which asked to > communicate with a remote address has authorized receiving incoming > communications from any other host (Endpoint-Independent Mapping/ > Endpoint-Independent Filtering). This is, for example, the default > behavior in NAT64. >=20 > Is this better? >=20 > regards, >=20 > Ted >=20 >=20 > On Fri, Nov 30, 2018 at 3:59 AM Eliot Lear wrote: >=20 >> >> >>> On 28 Nov 2018, at 22:21, Stephen Farrell = >> wrote: >>> >>> Signed PGP part >>> >>> >>> On 28/11/2018 21:55, IAB Executive Administrative Manager wrote: >>>> The Call for Comment will last until 2018-12-25. Please send comment= s to >>>> architecture-discuss@ietf.org and iab@iab.org. >>> >>> Dec 25th, heh. Sorry for sending mine early without any >>> gift wrapping:-) >>> >>> Seems fairly reasonable but two comments. >>> >>> 1. I'd recommend avoiding the term consent - IMO our industry >>> has sullied that term too much for it to be usable. I'm also >>> not sure whether a machine/program can consent to anything >>> anyway. Perhaps talk about authorisation instead in your >>> pinhole example. >> >> >> I agree that consent is a challenging term, and as used in the documen= t it >> is implied consent, but not necessarily meaningful consent. I wonder = if >> intent is a better phrasing. It too is overused these days, but at le= ast >> then you can talk about whose intent and whether that person is author= ised >> to even have an opinion ;-) Is it the intent of the designer of the t= ool >> or the intent of the administrator, or someone else? Intent is someti= mes >> easy to determine and sometimes hard. For general purposes applicatio= ns >> and tools, it may be impossible at scale (I don=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2= t know): today we are all >> once again witnessing another uPnP fiasco. And even if there are >> single-use applications, if they reside on a general use device, it is= also >> quite difficult (albeit perhaps not impossible). >> >> Eliot >> >=20 --------------E1973675E912FED3132BE99C Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 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E=Sophos;i="5.56,299,1539648000"; d="scan'208,217";a="206848591" Received: from alln-core-11.cisco.com ([173.36.13.133]) by alln-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 30 Nov 2018 21:21:54 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com (xch-aln-001.cisco.com [173.36.7.11]) by alln-core-11.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id wAULLsiW018658 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Nov 2018 21:21:54 GMT Received: from xch-aln-005.cisco.com (173.36.7.15) by XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com (173.36.7.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Fri, 30 Nov 2018 15:21:53 -0600 Received: from xch-aln-005.cisco.com ([173.36.7.15]) by XCH-ALN-005.cisco.com ([173.36.7.15]) with mapi id 15.00.1395.000; Fri, 30 Nov 2018 15:21:53 -0600 From: "Eliot Lear (elear)" To: Ted Hardie CC: Eliot Lear , Stephen Farrell , Internet Architecture Board , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [IAB] [arch-d] Call for Comment: (Transport Protocol Path Signals) Thread-Index: AQHUh2UsECO+r/3VEkOwjv38KUTKEKVmJ0AAgAJ2t4CAAJSvgP//o/33 Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2018 21:21:53 +0000 Message-ID: <4AE53293-7360-4282-8D49-F350FE967887@cisco.com> References: <154344212322.13692.8912412627900013388.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <51f5338d-8f44-c0a7-950e-a221d3379409@cs.tcd.ie> <81796A5A-313E-46D3-88A8-8559E4ADD2DD@cisco.com>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4AE53293736042828D49F350FE967887ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.11, xch-aln-001.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-11.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] [IAB] Call for Comment: (Transport Protocol Path Signals) X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: 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SMTP id y3mr4207474otg.5.1543614855773; Fri, 30 Nov 2018 13:54:15 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <154344212322.13692.8912412627900013388.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <51f5338d-8f44-c0a7-950e-a221d3379409@cs.tcd.ie> <81796A5A-313E-46D3-88A8-8559E4ADD2DD@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: From: Ted Hardie Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2018 13:53:49 -0800 Message-ID: To: Stephen Farrell Cc: Eliot Lear , Internet Architecture Board , architecture-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000260324057be8d7ca" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] [IAB] Call for Comment: (Transport Protocol Path Signals) X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2018 21:54:20 -0000 --000000000000260324057be8d7ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Nov 30, 2018 at 12:56 PM Stephen Farrell wrote: > > > On 30/11/2018 20:51, Ted Hardie wrote: > > Thanks to both of you for the review. Trying to synthesize it, I'm > > wondering if the following works, and I'd appreciate your feedback > > Sure, that sorts my first point nicely. > > Cheers, > S. > > Thanks for the reminder that the second point hadn't been addressed. Her= e are the relevant pieces of text, along with some comments in-line: o The portion of protocol signaling that is intended for end system state machines should be protected by confidentiality and integrity protection such that it is only available to those end systems. o Anything exposed to the path should be done with the intent that it be used by the network elements on the path. This information should be integrity protected. I hope we agree that the first bullet above is sorted, as you get integrity protection along with confidentiality with TLS. We can add that to the bullet if you think it is necessary. The second bullet is ambiguous. I and I think others were thinking about QUIC, where the integrity protection shows the endpoints if mucking about has been done by network elements along the path, but does not show a specific element if a prior element along that path has done anything. If anything has been changed, you would get a fatal alert at the destination end point, sent up and folded into a QUIC CONNECTION_CLOSE. You're right that there is also the possibility of producing path signals whose integrity can be checked by middleboxes with whom keys have been exchanged, but not by unknown middleboxes. There are some corner cases (trust on second use, where the public key is in the first signal to the path, and all later path signals are integrity protected with it), but they have serious problems with path changes, early stage attacks, and generally being worth the effort. Rather than going into the integrity protection checked by those along the path and the associated thicket of key management thorns, I personally think it is better to clarify that we were thinking of the integrity checks available to the endpoints. Something like this: Anything exposed to the path should be done with the intent that it be used by the network elements on the path. This information should be integrity protected, so that end systems can detect if path elements have made changes in-flight. o Signals exposed to the path should be decoupled from signals that drive the protocol state machines in endpoints. This avoids creating opportunities for additional inference. o Intermediate path elements should not add visible signals which identify the user, origin node, or origin network [RFC8164]. Note that if integrity protection is provided as suggested above, any signals added by intermediate path elements will be clearly distinguishable from those added by endpoints. That also requires some changes to the final bullet point, which would then read something like: o Intermediate path elements should not add visible signals which identify the user, origin node, or origin network [RFC8164]. Note that if integrity protection is provided for endpoint-supplied path signals as suggested above, any signals added by intermediate path elements will be clearly distinguishable from those added by endpoint= s, as they will not be within the integrity protected portion of the pac= ket. Do these changes make sense to you? Are they enough, or do we need to say more? Ted > > > > 3.1.2. Routability and Intent > > > > A second common inference that session establishment provides is tha= t > > the communicating pair of hosts can each reach each other and are > > interested in continuing communication. The firewall example given > > above is a consequence of that inference; because the > > internal host initiates the connection, it is presumed to want > > to receive return traffic. That, in turn justifies the pinhole. > > > > Some other on-path elements assume that a host which asked to > > communicate with a remote address has authorized receiving incoming > > communications from any other host (Endpoint-Independent Mapping/ > > Endpoint-Independent Filtering). This is, for example, the default > > behavior in NAT64. > > > > Is this better? > > > > regards, > > > > Ted > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 30, 2018 at 3:59 AM Eliot Lear wrote: > > > >> > >> > >>> On 28 Nov 2018, at 22:21, Stephen Farrell > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> Signed PGP part > >>> > >>> > >>> On 28/11/2018 21:55, IAB Executive Administrative Manager wrote: > >>>> The Call for Comment will last until 2018-12-25. Please send comment= s > to > >>>> architecture-discuss@ietf.org and iab@iab.org. > >>> > >>> Dec 25th, heh. Sorry for sending mine early without any > >>> gift wrapping:-) > >>> > >>> Seems fairly reasonable but two comments. > >>> > >>> 1. I'd recommend avoiding the term consent - IMO our industry > >>> has sullied that term too much for it to be usable. I'm also > >>> not sure whether a machine/program can consent to anything > >>> anyway. Perhaps talk about authorisation instead in your > >>> pinhole example. > >> > >> > >> I agree that consent is a challenging term, and as used in the documen= t > it > >> is implied consent, but not necessarily meaningful consent. I wonder = if > >> intent is a better phrasing. It too is overused these days, but at > least > >> then you can talk about whose intent and whether that person is > authorised > >> to even have an opinion ;-) Is it the intent of the designer of the > tool > >> or the intent of the administrator, or someone else? Intent is > sometimes > >> easy to determine and sometimes hard. For general purposes applicatio= ns > >> and tools, it may be impossible at scale (I don=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84= =A2t know): today we are > all > >> once again witnessing another uPnP fiasco. And even if there are > >> single-use applications, if they reside on a general use device, it is > also > >> quite difficult (albeit perhaps not impossible). > >> > >> Eliot > >> > > > --000000000000260324057be8d7ca Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, Nov 30, 2018 at 12:56 PM Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> w= rote:


On 30/11/2018 20:51, Ted Hardie wrote:
> Thanks to both of you for the review.=C2=A0 Trying to synthesize it, I= 'm
> wondering if the following works, and I'd appreciate your feedback=

Sure, that sorts my first point nicely.

Cheers,
S.

Thanks for the reminder that the second point hadn= 9;t been addressed.=C2=A0 Here are the relevant pieces of text, along with = some comments in-line:

o  The portion of prot=
ocol signaling that is intended for end system
      state machines should be protected by confidentiality and
      integrity protection such that it is only available to those end
      systems.
=C2=A0o  Anything exposed to the path should b=
e done with the intent that
      it be used by the network elements on the path.  This information
      should be integrity protected.

I hope we agree that the = first bullet above is sorted, as you get integrity protection along with co= nfidentiality with TLS.=C2=A0 We can add that to the bullet if you think it= is necessary.

The second bullet is ambiguous.=C2= =A0 I and I think others were thinking about QUIC, where the integrity prot= ection shows the endpoints if mucking about has been done by network elemen= ts along the path, but does not show a specific element if a prior element = along that path has done anything. If anything has been changed, you would = get a fatal alert at the destination end point, sent up and folded into a Q= UIC CONNECTION_CLOSE.=C2=A0

You're right = that there is also the possibility of producing path signals whose integrit= y can be checked by middleboxes with whom keys have been exchanged, but not= by unknown middleboxes.=C2=A0 There are some corner cases (trust on second= use, where the public key is in the first signal to the path, and all late= r path signals are integrity protected with it), but they have serious prob= lems with path changes, early stage attacks, and generally being worth the = effort.=C2=A0

Rather than going into the inte= grity protection checked by those along the path and the associated thicket= of key management thorns, I personally think it is better to clarify that = we were thinking of the integrity checks available to the endpoints.=C2=A0 = Something like this:

Anything exposed to the path shoul= d be done with the intent that
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 it be used by the ne= twork elements on the path.=C2=A0 This information
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = should be integrity protected, so that end systems can detect if path
= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 elements have made changes in-flight. =C2=A0= 

=C2=A0o  Signals exposed to the path should be decoupled from=
 signals that
      drive the protocol state machines in endpoints.  This avoids
      creating opportunities for additional inference.

   o  Intermediate path elements should not add visible signals which
      identify the user, origin node, or origin network [RFC8164].  Note
      that if integrity protection is provided as suggested above, any
      signals added by intermediate path elements will be clearly
      distinguishable from those added by endpoints.
That a= lso requires some changes to the final bullet point, which would then read = something
like:

  o  Intermediate p=
ath elements should not add visible signals which
      identify the user, origin node, or origin network [RFC8164].  Note
      that if integrity protection is provided for endpoint-supplied path      signals as suggested above, any signals added by intermediate path =

      elements will be clearly distinguishable from those added by endp=
oints,
      as they will not be within the integrity protect=
ed portion of the packet.
Do these changes make sense to yo= u?=C2=A0 Are they enough, or do we need to say more?

Ted

=C2=A0
>
> 3.1.2.=C2=A0 Routability and Intent
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A second common inference that session establishment prov= ides is that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the communicating pair of hosts can each reach each other= and are
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 interested in continuing communication.=C2=A0 The firewal= l example given
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 above is a consequence of that inference; because the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 internal host initiates the connection, it is presumed to= want
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to receive return traffic.=C2=A0 That, in turn justifies = the pinhole.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Some other on-path elements assume that a host which aske= d to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 communicate with a remote address has authorized receivin= g incoming
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 communications from any other host (Endpoint-Independent = Mapping/
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Endpoint-Independent Filtering).=C2=A0 This is, for examp= le, the default
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 behavior in NAT64.
>
> Is this better?
>
> regards,
>
> Ted
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 30, 2018 at 3:59 AM Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>> On 28 Nov 2018, at 22:21, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Signed PGP part
>>>
>>>
>>> On 28/11/2018 21:55, IAB Executive Administrative Manager wrot= e:
>>>> The Call for Comment will last until 2018-12-25. Please se= nd comments to
>>>> architecture-discuss@ietf.org and iab@iab.org.
>>>
>>> Dec 25th, heh. Sorry for sending mine early without any
>>> gift wrapping:-)
>>>
>>> Seems fairly reasonable but two comments.
>>>
>>> 1. I'd recommend avoiding the term consent - IMO our indus= try
>>> has sullied that term too much for it to be usable. I'm al= so
>>> not sure whether a machine/program can consent to anything
>>> anyway. Perhaps talk about authorisation instead in your
>>> pinhole example.
>>
>>
>> I agree that consent is a challenging term, and as used in the doc= ument it
>> is implied consent, but not necessarily meaningful consent.=C2=A0 = I wonder if
>> intent is a better phrasing.=C2=A0 It too is overused these days, = but at least
>> then you can talk about whose intent and whether that person is au= thorised
>> to even have an opinion ;-)=C2=A0 Is it the intent of the designer= of the tool
>> or the intent of the administrator, or someone else?=C2=A0 Intent = is sometimes
>> easy to determine and sometimes hard.=C2=A0 For general purposes a= pplications
>> and tools, it may be impossible at scale (I don=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2= =84=A2t know): today we are all
>> once again witnessing another uPnP fiasco.=C2=A0 And even if there= are
>> single-use applications, if they reside on a general use device, i= t is also
>> quite difficult (albeit perhaps not impossible).
>>
>> Eliot
>>
>
--000000000000260324057be8d7ca-- From nobody Fri Nov 30 14:19:36 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8462313107F for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2018 14:19:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TNO54ulsj2R0 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2018 14:19:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F39DD131083 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2018 14:19:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id D275FBE2D; Fri, 30 Nov 2018 22:19:30 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iGx0SHQnFBv3; Fri, 30 Nov 2018 22:19:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.244.2.138] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 78C76BE2C; Fri, 30 Nov 2018 22:19:29 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1543616369; bh=xn3XAVL84d5a50j9WljDzyuYaz1xMSyESFBvHMYacUg=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=hVvjFTwM/nCPMFTtTzLGVd4ivixc2KoWIaV64nQBuPZWZE+z6RRGVh3KxhLBYL9Yf dOahti05xsIf7PFywd0itevL3L8eY4C2zGNVuUpejvHc8GBJTLhmkgTT2u128YNLhM dzCZzkG7FrtALsL4f7vGC263/M0IYA8bdn46Wqnw= To: Ted Hardie Cc: Eliot Lear , Internet Architecture Board , architecture-discuss@ietf.org References: <154344212322.13692.8912412627900013388.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <51f5338d-8f44-c0a7-950e-a221d3379409@cs.tcd.ie> <81796A5A-313E-46D3-88A8-8559E4ADD2DD@cisco.com> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; 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Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="7P26nopf3fFOcvGHKR6Q9qBikK9FApAZP" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] [IAB] Call for Comment: (Transport Protocol Path Signals) X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2018 22:19:35 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --7P26nopf3fFOcvGHKR6Q9qBikK9FApAZP Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="JUQtlGa0tlOLswNjS4WCEBnLWrATj7GfR"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Ted Hardie Cc: Eliot Lear , Internet Architecture Board , architecture-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [IAB] [arch-d] Call for Comment: (Transport Protocol Path Signals) References: <154344212322.13692.8912412627900013388.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <51f5338d-8f44-c0a7-950e-a221d3379409@cs.tcd.ie> <81796A5A-313E-46D3-88A8-8559E4ADD2DD@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: --JUQtlGa0tlOLswNjS4WCEBnLWrATj7GfR Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------833222B5AC76AB0AB4961F30" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------833222B5AC76AB0AB4961F30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 30/11/2018 21:53, Ted Hardie wrote: > Do these changes make sense to you? =20 Yep. > Are they enough, or do we need to say > more? They're fine by me, thanks. I would offer one other bit of text, maybe along the lines of: "Note: There are significant unsolved problems with supporting non-endpoints in verifying signal integrity or being enabled to modify signals while preserving security. It is therefore likely that integrity protection can only be applied by, and can only be verified by, end-points." But your suggested text is good enough if you'd rather not add more. 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