From nobody Sat Dec 1 02:26:35 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B5A212D4F0 for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2018 02:26:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B14hfKFF0CdS for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2018 02:26:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from gozo.iway.ch (gozo.iway.ch [IPv6:2001:8e0:40:325::36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7E33E12DD85 for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2018 02:26:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from gozo.iway.ch (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id 725D6342920; Sat, 1 Dec 2018 11:26:28 +0100 (CET) X-Iway-Path: 0 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ACF/20439.1361); Sat, 1 Dec 2018 11:26:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from switchplus-mail.ch (switchplus-mail.ch [212.25.8.236]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gozo.iway.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Sat, 1 Dec 2018 11:26:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from [145.14.214.39] (account ietf@trammell.ch HELO [10.11.33.78]) by switchplus-mail.ch (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.9) with ESMTPSA id 75685755; Sat, 01 Dec 2018 11:26:27 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16B92) In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2018 11:26:26 +0100 Cc: Ted Hardie , Internet Architecture Board , architecture-discuss@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <98BFB42C-6982-48D8-88E9-7F20F809A5E4@trammell.ch> References: <154344212322.13692.8912412627900013388.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <51f5338d-8f44-c0a7-950e-a221d3379409@cs.tcd.ie> <81796A5A-313E-46D3-88A8-8559E4ADD2DD@cisco.com> To: Stephen Farrell Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] [IAB] Call for Comment: (Transport Protocol Path Signals) X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2018 10:26:33 -0000 Hi Stephen, Ted, all...=20 (in-line) Sent from my iPhone > On 30 Nov 2018, at 23:19, Stephen Farrell wrot= e: >=20 >=20 > Hiya, >=20 >> On 30/11/2018 21:53, Ted Hardie wrote: >> Do these changes make sense to you? =20 >=20 > Yep. >=20 >> Are they enough, or do we need to say >> more? >=20 > They're fine by me, thanks. >=20 > I would offer one other bit of text, maybe along the > lines of: >=20 > "Note: There are significant unsolved problems with > supporting non-endpoints in verifying signal integrity > or being enabled to modify signals while preserving > security. It is therefore likely that integrity > protection can only be applied by, and can only be > verified by, end-points." I=E2=80=99d second adding text like this. It might make sense to point out here, too, that while we know that doing th= is right is hard, advances in generalizable methods for allowing integrity p= rotection verifiable by other than the endpoints are a necessary missing bui= lding block for deploying more complex path signaling approaches in the Inte= rnet. Not sure how emphatically we want to encourage work in a space that ma= y well be futile, though. Cheers, B > But your suggested text is good enough if you'd rather > not add more. >=20 > Cheers, > S. > <0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc> > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss From nobody Sat Dec 1 15:40:53 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EE3A130E67 for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2018 15:40:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q4mtMubfoDqY for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2018 15:40:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C5465130E62 for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2018 15:40:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id A27FBBE38; Sat, 1 Dec 2018 23:40:47 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W3bDUjqwtEZK; Sat, 1 Dec 2018 23:40:46 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.244.2.138] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 042D5BE2D; Sat, 1 Dec 2018 23:40:46 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1543707646; bh=tLo1O+KbK0dTOqpTs4u0m9q6D25J+yRZUSk95MbnNrQ=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=V3u6H2rV2X8qqIuW9eRhi9h0Tv7gJMjJltvt1ms7mQUia1mVSAmiI2D7M8JpPckFG 4Qs/hWhFwYYzmwaVkIJrABljPLfZqlFJO9S7ZsDgCtgDRBE7Yc0UsisMKMROxJ1EPg cB/ChJoQ/A8kQEfeS8cvP1EY8/0vt5aSi5Kwrnm8= To: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" Cc: Ted Hardie , Internet Architecture Board , architecture-discuss@ietf.org References: <154344212322.13692.8912412627900013388.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <51f5338d-8f44-c0a7-950e-a221d3379409@cs.tcd.ie> <81796A5A-313E-46D3-88A8-8559E4ADD2DD@cisco.com> <98BFB42C-6982-48D8-88E9-7F20F809A5E4@trammell.ch> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; url= Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABzTJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPsLBgAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxM7BTQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAcLBZQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2018 23:40:44 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <98BFB42C-6982-48D8-88E9-7F20F809A5E4@trammell.ch> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="xgC3Ko6qa8Igv6FaSsFSAgpjcxuXZPlig" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] [IAB] Call for Comment: (Transport Protocol Path Signals) X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2018 23:40:53 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --xgC3Ko6qa8Igv6FaSsFSAgpjcxuXZPlig Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="NXHijSj7fl6DHhYDEA37uM4bOmRWKXimZ"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" Cc: Ted Hardie , Internet Architecture Board , architecture-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [arch-d] [IAB] Call for Comment: (Transport Protocol Path Signals) References: <154344212322.13692.8912412627900013388.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <51f5338d-8f44-c0a7-950e-a221d3379409@cs.tcd.ie> <81796A5A-313E-46D3-88A8-8559E4ADD2DD@cisco.com> <98BFB42C-6982-48D8-88E9-7F20F809A5E4@trammell.ch> In-Reply-To: <98BFB42C-6982-48D8-88E9-7F20F809A5E4@trammell.ch> --NXHijSj7fl6DHhYDEA37uM4bOmRWKXimZ Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------7E53D2A88E02742DD9FE9D3A" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------7E53D2A88E02742DD9FE9D3A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 01/12/2018 10:26, Brian Trammell (IETF) wrote: > It might make sense to point out here, too, that while we know that > doing this right is hard, advances in generalizap than the endpoints > are a necessary missing building block for deploying more complex > path signaling approaches in the Internet. Not sure how emphatically > we want to encourage work in a space that may well be futile, > though. Yep, "resistance is futile", as the saying goes:-) I'd agree it might be wise (and kind) for the IAB to ack that it's perhaps not entirely realistic to expect significant new developments here. (OTOH, while it's a fun problem, it's not one that's attracted much attention in the last while afaik, so who knows, maybe smart people will find new smart answers). 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"Stephen Farrell" Cc: "Ted Hardie" , "Eliot Lear" , "Internet Architecture Board" , architecture-discuss@ietf.org Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2018 17:17:40 -0500 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.12.2r5568) Message-ID: <6122ABE1-475C-41BE-9597-BFC261C63A8A@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <154344212322.13692.8912412627900013388.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <51f5338d-8f44-c0a7-950e-a221d3379409@cs.tcd.ie> <81796A5A-313E-46D3-88A8-8559E4ADD2DD@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_MailMate_C53C1364-15AC-47A8-84FC-C68907138404_=" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] [IAB] Call for Comment: (Transport Protocol Path Signals) X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2018 22:17:47 -0000 --=_MailMate_C53C1364-15AC-47A8-84FC-C68907138404_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; markup=markdown Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Stephen- On 30 Nov 2018, at 17:19, Stephen Farrell wrote: > I would offer one other bit of text, maybe along the > lines of: > > "Note: There are significant unsolved problems with > supporting non-endpoints in verifying signal integrity > or being enabled to modify signals while preserving > security. It is therefore likely that integrity > protection can only be applied by, and can only be > verified by, end-points." For those of us playing along at home, could you provide a hint / example / link regarding the ‘significant unsolved problems’ around middleboxes verifying signal integrity? My first thought goes to the DoS vulnerability if the middlebox is discarding traffic that fails the integrity check but I sense you have something more in mind. --aaron --=_MailMate_C53C1364-15AC-47A8-84FC-C68907138404_= Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<= p dir=3D"auto">Hi Stephen-

On 30 Nov 2018, at 17:19, Stephen Farrell wrote:

I would offer one other bit of text= , maybe along the
lines of:

"Note: There are significant unsolved problems with
supporting non-endpoints in verifying signal integrity
or being enabled to modify signals while preserving
security. It is therefore likely that integrity
protection can only be applied by, and can only be
verified by, end-points."

For those of us playing along at home, could= you provide a hint / example / link regarding the =E2=80=98significant u= nsolved problems=E2=80=99 around middleboxes verifying signal integrity? = My first thought goes to the DoS vulnerability if the middlebox is disca= rding traffic that fails the integrity check but I sense you have somethi= ng more in mind.

--aaron

--=_MailMate_C53C1364-15AC-47A8-84FC-C68907138404_=-- From nobody Mon Dec 3 14:49:16 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E338912426E for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2018 14:49:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rJAaW5U5lp1M for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2018 14:49:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9003E130DC3 for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2018 14:49:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3899BE47; Mon, 3 Dec 2018 22:49:08 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cnZBtF7SwGwr; Mon, 3 Dec 2018 22:49:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.244.2.138] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 377FDBE3E; Mon, 3 Dec 2018 22:49:07 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1543877347; bh=HYi1BOG3X/p4tL6vOFx0b4xqvVep2FYAfZlT4ydWgVk=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=RWMeqarcjqNdYKGsQ+NzthjN+agubDC7tSXMIZfPHofAyjNX2zegl5uSWB/TNGJWo +yQO5AB0SvBstvTxGvJCgyRTRreOc6v1m5sn0JGMddQGA7VfBJ5dP13CWNA3xNlPNM Xfpt2IVKI/oOSpy4TYaEYpZBn8QVVYUKLugRZ58Y= To: Aaron Falk Cc: Ted Hardie , Eliot Lear , Internet Architecture Board , architecture-discuss@ietf.org References: <154344212322.13692.8912412627900013388.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <51f5338d-8f44-c0a7-950e-a221d3379409@cs.tcd.ie> <81796A5A-313E-46D3-88A8-8559E4ADD2DD@cisco.com> <6122ABE1-475C-41BE-9597-BFC261C63A8A@gmail.com> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; 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Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6122ABE1-475C-41BE-9597-BFC261C63A8A@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="CqBYGD7KeuvXlniEUXsND6UxvvaXL1oE4" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] [IAB] Call for Comment: (Transport Protocol Path Signals) X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2018 22:49:15 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --CqBYGD7KeuvXlniEUXsND6UxvvaXL1oE4 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="bLZL0SljYE7dvgGx5e60GDaR7CX43gP9Q"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Aaron Falk Cc: Ted Hardie , Eliot Lear , Internet Architecture Board , architecture-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [arch-d] [IAB] Call for Comment: (Transport Protocol Path Signals) References: <154344212322.13692.8912412627900013388.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <51f5338d-8f44-c0a7-950e-a221d3379409@cs.tcd.ie> <81796A5A-313E-46D3-88A8-8559E4ADD2DD@cisco.com> <6122ABE1-475C-41BE-9597-BFC261C63A8A@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <6122ABE1-475C-41BE-9597-BFC261C63A8A@gmail.com> --bLZL0SljYE7dvgGx5e60GDaR7CX43gP9Q Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------6C52259313CC58DA21ADB160" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6C52259313CC58DA21ADB160 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Aaron, On 03/12/2018 22:17, Aaron Falk wrote: > Hi Stephen- >=20 > On 30 Nov 2018, at 17:19, Stephen Farrell wrote: >=20 >> I would offer one other bit of text, maybe along the >> lines of: >> >> "Note: There are significant unsolved problems with >> supporting non-endpoints in verifying signal integrity >> or being enabled to modify signals while preserving >> security. It is therefore likely that integrity >> protection can only be applied by, and can only be >> verified by, end-points." >=20 > For those of us playing along at home, could you provide a hint / > example / link regarding the =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=CB=9Csignificant unsolved = problems=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2 around > middleboxes verifying signal integrity?=C2=A0 My first thought goes to = the > DoS vulnerability if the middlebox is discarding traffic that fails the= > integrity check but I sense you have something more in mind. I guess so, but as usual, my logic is more prosaic:-) If integrity isn't cryptographic, then all bets are off. If integrity uses symmetric crypto, then how can endpoint(s) share keys with middleboxes they've never heard of? That seems like a showstopper outside of e.g. an enterprise n/w. (Where presumably better options exist in any case.) If integrity uses signatures and a PKI then it's still hard to know what trust points (CAs/roots/whatever you want to call 'em) will be acceptable to a middlebox, from a signing endpoint. (Since there's no negotiation.) If your transport is bidirectional, and some middleboxes need to be able to verify signals from either side, then that seems to force both endpoints to use the same set of trust points. So one ends up with the best one can see is one PKI to rule them all, kind of like DNSSEC I guess, but how could such a PKI certify endpoints for this purpose and what'd that mean? (End of "permissionless" maybe? - every transport endpoint needs a DS resource record equivalent perhaps.) I think the problem in the para above seems true regardless of what kind of PKI one invents (x.509, DNSSEC, spki, pgp...) One might consider integrity with signatures and TOFU, but that seems to only make sense if the same endpoint sends many signals via one middlebox, which has lots of other downsides, e.g. tracking. And of course signatures aren't tiny either, nor are key ids that could work in such a context so it seems a bit theoretical in any case. One could imagine amortising bits of a signature over multiple packets I guess, but that'd be yet another bit of research. And all of the above is before one even gets to where you started from - that we'd be creating new DoS vectors most likely etc. Hope that helps, S. >=20 > --aaron --------------6C52259313CC58DA21ADB160 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 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10:42:25 -0500 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.12.2r5568) Message-ID: <46E34632-506E-4AF7-9F72-8CFFA35C1F56@gmail.com> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_MailMate_2DBA9E6B-9EA0-4946-978A-86BA9C34A039_=" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Embedded-HTML: [{"HTML":[860, 9131], "plain":[460, 4928], "uuid":"41D88592-91C4-47F5-A462-E1626BB221D1"}] Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] Fwd: Architectural implications of EH / filtering (was: draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-filtering) X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 15:42:34 -0000 --=_MailMate_2DBA9E6B-9EA0-4946-978A-86BA9C34A039_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In case you’ve been sleeping on the IETF list, here’s an architecture thread relevant (IMO) to this program: Forwarded message: > From: Warren Kumari > To: IETF Discuss , opsec wg mailing list > , tsv-art@ietf.org, > draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-filtering.all@ietf.org > Subject: Architectural implications of EH / filtering (was: > draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-filtering) > Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 18:58:05 -0500 > > Thank you, everyone, for a spirited discussion! > > I've gone through the discussions and broken the emails down into a > few > categories - there were a number of emails on the document itself, > many of > them with helpful suggestions on how to improve / focus the document > (thank > you!). > > More recently the discussion has become more acrimonious, and morphed > from > discussion **on this document** into the larger philosophical > discussions > on filtering in general, if what we have designed and call IPv6 can > actually be implemented / deployed in the real world on core-type > devices, > what it means to claim compliance with a specification, the role of > ISPs, > ossification caused by operational decisions, "my network, my rules", > etc. > > > The IETF LC thread on the document, and the TSVART review (and > corresponding thread) both generated useful, and actionable comments, > and > I've asked the authors to go through them carefully and address them > -- > these fall into the "on the document" category. I think that once > these > have been done, the document itself will be in acceptable shape to > proceed > (but keep reading!) > > > There has been a significant amount of additional discussion after > this - > and it mostly falls into the "larger discussion" category. > > It covers things such as: > > * the implications of protocol design on implementability / > deployability > (can protocol X be deployed at scale?). Should feasibility of > implementation in hardware be a consideration? > * the harms caused by filtering in the network (ossification, > survivability > of extensions, layering principles) > * operators need to perform filtering for end-point protection / DDoS > mitigation / ECMP > * what it means to be compliant with a specification (if you can > forward at > rate X, but only filter at rate x/1,000,000 are you compliant?). If it > is > not possible to buy / build a device which filters at line rate, is > that > the fault of the vendor, the operator or the protocol design? > * do intermediate devices have any right to filter / role in > filtering? If > operators need to be able to do X to run their service / network, and > they > have to choose between "protocol correctness" and "keeping the network > running", is it acceptable to drop / fold / spindle / mutilate > correctness > to keep the network up? > > > > The discussion seems to have broken into 2 camps -- those who are > saying > that > > 1: the network / vendors should be able to do what the RFCs say, > vs > 2: those who say that operational reality trumps RFCs. > > This seems to be one of the tussles -- the other is (largely): > > 1: blocking unknown X is harmful to future protocols / development > (blacklist approach) > vs > 2: I run a [network / service / system] and know what packets I'm > expecting. If I don't expect X, I'm just going to drop it (whitelist > approach) > > > > This same discussion has come up a number of times over the past few > years > -- "Why operators filter fragments" was one instance, the (multitude) > of EH > discussions were another. > > It is clear that we are fairly far apart in many instances of this > discussion, and it is worth further discussing the different > philosophies. > I feel that we should be discussing the architectural issues > separately > (not in the thread on this document). I also think that there is a > fair bit > of distance between the "operators" view and the "architecture" view. > > I'm going to further investigate / discuss this, but I think that it > might > be worth: > > * having some presentations / discussions on "how X works when > deployed / > implementation shortcomings". As an example, at the IEPG meeting in > Yokohama (IETF94) these was a presentation on "MODERN ROUTER > ARCHITECTURE > FOR PROTOCOL DESIGNERS" - > http://www.iepg.org/2015-11-01-ietf94/IEPG-RouterArchitecture-jgs.pdf > . As > another example, I was recently informed of a surprising limitation in > TLS > libraries -- these are apparently well known to those who work in this > space, but I'd certainly never heard of them. I think that we (IETF > participants in general) sometimes fall into believing that we know > how > technology X works because we've helped design it, but don't > necessarily > know what happens once it escapes our clutches / flies out of the > nest. > * consider having a BoF on this / these topics. > * perhaps something like a workshop? > > > > > As for the current discussion, I'd like people to please: > > a: step back and decided if you are simply repeating your current > position > (but in a new and louder voice) or if you are bringing something new > to the > topic. > > b: move the discussion to this thread > > > -- > I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad > idea in > the first place. > This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing > regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair > of > pants. > ---maf --=_MailMate_2DBA9E6B-9EA0-4946-978A-86BA9C34A039_= Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<= p dir=3D"auto">In case you=E2=80=99ve been sleeping on the IETF list, her= e=E2=80=99s an architecture thread relevant (IMO) to this program:

Forwarded message:

From: Warren Kumari <warren@kuma= ri.net>
To: IETF Discuss <ietf@ietf.org>, opsec wg mailing list <opsec@i= etf.org>, tsv-art@ietf.org, draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-filtering.all@iet= f.org
Subject: Architectural implications of EH / filtering (was: draft-ietf-op= sec-ipv6-eh-filtering)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 18:58:05 -0500

Thank you, everyone, for a spir= ited discussion!

I've gone through the discussions and b= roken the emails down into a few categories - there were a number of emai= ls on the document itself, many of them with helpful suggestions on how t= o improve / focus the document (thank you!).=C2=A0

More recent= ly the discussion has become more acrimonious, and morphed from discussio= n **on this document** into the larger philosophical discussions on filte= ring in general, if what we have designed and call IPv6 can actually be i= mplemented / deployed in the real world on core-type devices, what it mea= ns to claim compliance with a specification, the role of ISPs, ossificati= on caused by operational decisions, "my network, my rules", etc= =2E


The IETF LC thread = on the document, and the TSVART review (and corresponding thread) both ge= nerated useful, and actionable comments, and I've asked the authors t= o go through them carefully and address them -- these fall into the "= ;on the document" category. I think that once these have been done, = the document itself will be in acceptable=C2=A0shape to proceed (but keep= reading!)=C2=A0


There = has been a significant amount of additional discussion after this - and i= t mostly falls into the "larger discussion" category.


* the implications of protocol des= ign on implementability / deployability (can protocol X be deployed at sc= ale?). Should feasibility of implementation in hardware be a consideratio= n?=C2=A0
* the harms caused by filtering in the network (ossification,= survivability of extensions, layering principles)
* operators need to= perform filtering for end-point protection / DDoS mitigation / ECMP
*= what it means to be compliant with a specification (if you can forward a= t rate X, but only filter at rate x/1,000,000 are you compliant?). If it = is not possible to buy / build a device which filters at line rate, is th= at the fault of the vendor, the operator or the protocol design?
* do = intermediate devices have any right to filter / role in filtering? If ope= rators need to be able to do X to run their service / network, and they h= ave to choose between "protocol correctness" and "keeping = the network running", is it acceptable to drop / fold / spindle / mu= tilate correctness to keep the network up?



=
The= discussion seems to have broken into 2 camps -- those who are saying tha= t

1: the network / vendors should be able to do what the RFCs = say,
vs
2: those who say that operational reality trumps RFCs.
<= br>
This seems to be one of the tussles -- the other is (largely):
=
1: blocking unknown X is harmful to future protocols / developmen= t (blacklist approach)
vs
2: I run a [network / service / system] a= nd know what packets I'm expecting. If I don't expect X, I'm = just going to drop it (whitelist approach)



=
Thi= s same discussion has come up a number of times over the past few years -= - "Why operators filter fragments" was one instance, the (multi= tude) of EH discussions were another.

It is clear that we are = fairly far apart in many instances of this discussion, and it is worth fu= rther discussing the different philosophies. I feel that we should be dis= cussing the architectural issues separately (not in the thread on this do= cument). I also think that there is a fair bit of distance between the &q= uot;operators" view and the "architecture" view.


* having some presentations / discussions on= "how X works when deployed / implementation shortcomings". As = an example, at the IEPG meeting in Yokohama (IETF94) these was a presenta= tion on "MODERN ROUTER ARCHITECTURE FOR PROTOCOL DESIGNERS" - <= a href=3D"http://www.iepg.org/2015-11-01-ietf94/IEPG-RouterArchitecture-j= gs.pdf">http://www.iepg.org/2015-11-01-ietf94/IEPG-RouterArchitecture-jgs= =2Epdf . As another example, I was recently informed of a surprising = limitation in TLS libraries -- these are apparently well known to those w= ho work in this space, but I'd certainly never heard of them. I think= that we (IETF participants in general) sometimes fall into believing tha= t we know how technology X works because we've helped design it, but = don't necessarily know what happens once it escapes our clutches / fl= ies out of the nest.
* consider having a BoF on this / these topics.
= * perhaps something like a workshop?




As for the current discussion, I'd like= people to please:

a: step back and decided if you are simply = repeating your current position (but in a new and louder voice) or if you= are bringing something new to the topic.

b: move the discussion= to this thread


--
I don't think the execution is releva= nt when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place.
This is like p= utting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having= chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants.
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0---maf


=
--=_MailMate_2DBA9E6B-9EA0-4946-978A-86BA9C34A039_=-- From disruptivesolutionsnl@gmail.com Thu Dec 13 12:06:46 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D3DA130EA0 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 12:06:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FHv2MxWnvpX4 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 12:06:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ed1-x52d.google.com (mail-ed1-x52d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DB269130EA9 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 12:06:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ed1-x52d.google.com with SMTP id x30so3110704edx.2 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 12:06:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version:thread-index :content-language; bh=KtqyNMr4Yzct9cZltaqNBiwt35u5/O76QJBgz9BZ/3c=; b=J+xPh7X3hgUmXOFAdlUGp8YTSqjBTgvFtTFS0KuOM6fXNoFBqMp1oLruKkG9dHarVW P98Nc8VTYV46MdaaX+/G5axYlGVcWIO9YstMx7BIc+ce+D9qtM0GxOWE9w49NSzvCRLD v7ibBuEUnx/LBfHZzqrvdU+mdgALGKjZ0v/uQy6yMOtKWlKCfaparhS2pJGUdX0JQCSc o6zlN4IZ+pAiSnuQfTVwnHahQgRfSnABzh6/d24gTawHIu9bA/QFrknjgs8qnL6Oa9Ar E/Qd6Gu1R1+aS6NVD7ZljZhlXy2gmvQU3PPhnCXr8/4GOjOcvky8anxWt2lB3vvIvs28 7zsQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version :thread-index:content-language; bh=KtqyNMr4Yzct9cZltaqNBiwt35u5/O76QJBgz9BZ/3c=; b=fACRkTxE+kv0Cs5oy8s6Bn82/VCNRYwfLT3iV6IUT2gFkk0kqhQPn4TlQOZEjKSUq7 2hm1nAW7BidjR/4pf67n+hOPisTbSpt2LXcdowP8xeWdsD3TQb8g0KrmmPqBZnC6rUAE 1/xTexAm/VGBbtIb0UF12ptvQW+bPj5x8mdlQ56nk3hKxQJ1IrwcpSLM0KeDJix8+5Eb 2a1pwvPxex4ej4vz/moYv/ESSUtP7JfZ9L694T3zT9VRdnu0iAPoTRGDYKtaLfK6LoLy daTRJfcxxr9Lx3YCbc7rx43P/aUEV3g6HUN51MoIfU7REyMMx+XiSxGlyFiYZoPp6GAR MClg== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWb1E4EBK91giV78BeIddijAslfJLQ3sy4IdHR+X8WlyOELidTH3 OB+1cvIktUwh34e0GaMpRyDBfufhL3k= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/U1jEnnScXlcGEqvi7w7SC9wczv/hVEaYskDrgubNU+xc4KbXg+0oXnyyNOGzSmnGGuVB1VcQ== X-Received: by 2002:a50:bf02:: with SMTP id f2mr541956edk.157.1544731601971; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 12:06:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from DESKTOPL58FD38 (5ED4324B.cm-7-5a.dynamic.ziggo.nl. [94.212.50.75]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l20-v6sm475980eja.18.2018.12.13.12.06.40 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Thu, 13 Dec 2018 12:06:40 -0800 (PST) From: To: Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 21:06:38 +0100 Message-ID: <000901d4931f$5be68410$13b38c30$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01D49327.BDAB8850" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AdSTHi+KfF7fgzYOSO+d4UD0HoTBAQ== Content-Language: nl Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] Question about design, architecturing of services. X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 20:08:33 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01D49327.BDAB8850 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I am new to this list. My question is about something i am researching. I am busy with a business question about Content Management. I have been using BMM (Business Motivation Model) and/or Archimate 3 (Motivation) and now I want to make "Service Descriptions". I allready have a WSDL and want to connect, with some explicity and details (DevOps reason) with the BMM artifacts and/or elements. So I have been looking at SoaML.. Does some-one has some examples or ideas if this is the way to go? I am also thinking about 1 page with all the information on it for the devops teams. Maybe per service (microservices). Thanks in advance. Ben ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01D49327.BDAB8850 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi all,

 

I am new to = this list.

 

My question is about something i am researching. I am = busy with a business question about Content Management. I have been = using BMM (Business Motivation Model) and/or Archimate 3 (Motivation) = and now I want to make “Service Descriptions”. I allready = have a WSDL and want to connect, with some explicity and details (DevOps = reason) with the BMM artifacts and/or elements. So I have been looking = at SoaML….

 

Does = some-one has some examples or ideas if this is the way to go? I am also = thinking about 1 page with all the information on it for the devops = teams. Maybe per service (microservices).

 

Thanks in = advance.

 

Ben

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01D49327.BDAB8850-- From nobody Fri Dec 14 08:38:34 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41347130EAC for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 08:38:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B5vBqDtA87MG for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 08:38:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x22a.google.com (mail-oi1-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9256C130E5F for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 08:38:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x22a.google.com with SMTP id x202so4997493oif.13 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 08:38:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=K14jTKDNSLnGpVY1GZ7aP6IIih35Z4LTzJHyAQDgeAU=; b=cRgs6WahVtduKAy/yk8rfZr8MZhHo/UNt2oAXoMyMKSixkOcXMYM4/nYj9MLGKF1Eo vmO5hJJkJJOt5Ex+cTgfKzHQqfGJ3QAg2tGPd2XIyEzJr9JOObu/BHPjp0uYQEefCg/w KnrfFKU0J2GD1AkAxGY9Y/HK8gyazMN+tAp5Kdl7FltOSmFlRH0JKuHG/C1begOa3K3d seoO3C6jEWVsbXcXzRThzS5RJI3ugCYhrdDotU5fDLT43xqPPlMu+lOJ0iMkSHiArRiA yhZK7qhh/wS2U2R0FWm2N5Q/1UKR0FS4mrou97Y3ClXb9/J5KBRyUWYXvtiaJc6/EyDS ntmw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=K14jTKDNSLnGpVY1GZ7aP6IIih35Z4LTzJHyAQDgeAU=; b=fUF8CskXLvNGTt6dJ03TK4roTlgKbhnsQDOkiwAyCHIo/jsnbNZkyp7vxRi39dVsqi 9tEYr8m+pB4VtL0AFwEcc8mU06SU/RvqCjSmU7gyVLxGncJ72VnomG5tvStLTQJ3O46y oO91RfY+m+W+haGLxoqZC2mgx5en0hIzHU828gmvaB4zv5cq4xoLT9Yw9OKxbjsWyHzD xkUBQ3L8v1LCzB/MIkmg07DLRcQYuE5fgqCIuMnENl/NLoGrT7VIDyQpNHS1ssgGWeSP E3BleH7NIDpg9LW4uSI7jcPDQayW4uIF/hStQdkPPO1JOAIRXncJpQK1uju54LaN7VR8 CLbA== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWZklCJ+pVta46iH9mUF5nQXFvHMpmP4Xtcdnl1l7g8sIm+RMRdo t1LjHnBUce8QfRfNvHOik8gBUjUoOS/KEeMAV48= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/XH574wuIACS02Y5vz4jG5+cR4DlreC2btTk5Eu6TtW6B0gIBbdVL9+7hIBS0SFIN3lwzBge/nyDCJYFBXwOr4= X-Received: by 2002:aca:c4d8:: with SMTP id u207mr2139371oif.30.1544805509744; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 08:38:29 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <000901d4931f$5be68410$13b38c30$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <000901d4931f$5be68410$13b38c30$@gmail.com> From: Ted Hardie Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 08:38:03 -0800 Message-ID: To: disruptivesolutionsnl@gmail.com Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a7ce4f057cfe0f69" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Question about design, architecturing of services. X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 16:38:32 -0000 --000000000000a7ce4f057cfe0f69 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ben, Welcome to the list. The SoaML specification actually comes out of the Open Group, rather than the IETF, so you may find more resources for your question there. https://www.opengroup.org/forum/service-oriented-architecture-soa lists an architecture forum there may have more directed responses. kind regards, Ted Hardie On Thu, Dec 13, 2018 at 12:08 PM wrote: > Hi all, > > > > I am new to this list. > > > > My question is about something i am researching. I am busy with a busines= s > question about Content Management. I have been using BMM (Business > Motivation Model) and/or Archimate 3 (Motivation) and now I want to make > =E2=80=9CService Descriptions=E2=80=9D. I allready have a WSDL and want t= o connect, with > some explicity and details (DevOps reason) with the BMM artifacts and/or > elements. So I have been looking at SoaML=E2=80=A6. > > > > Does some-one has some examples or ideas if this is the way to go? I am > also thinking about 1 page with all the information on it for the devops > teams. Maybe per service (microservices). > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > Ben > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > --000000000000a7ce4f057cfe0f69 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Ben,

Wel= come to the list.=C2=A0

The SoaML specificati= on actually comes out of the Open Group, rather than the IETF, so you may f= ind more resources for your question there.=C2=A0=C2=A0 https://www.open= group.org/forum/service-oriented-architecture-soa=C2=A0 lists an archit= ecture forum there may have more directed responses.

kind regards,

Ted Hardie
<= br>
On Thu, Dec 13, 2018 at 12:0= 8 PM <disruptivesolut= ionsnl@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi all,

=C2=A0

I am new to this li= st.

=C2=A0

My question is about something i am researching. I am busy= with a business question about Content Management. I have been using BMM (= Business Motivation Model) and/or Archimate 3 (Motivation) and now I want t= o make =E2=80=9CService Descriptions=E2=80=9D. I allready have a WSDL and w= ant to connect, with some explicity and details (DevOps reason) with the BM= M artifacts and/or elements. So I have been looking at SoaML=E2=80=A6. <= /u>

=C2=A0

Does some-one has some examples or ideas if this is the way to go?= I am also thinking about 1 page with all the information on it for the dev= ops teams. Maybe per service (microservices).

=C2=A0

Thanks in advanc= e.

=C2=A0

Ben

___________________________= ____________________
Architecture-discuss mailing list
Architec= ture-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/arc= hitecture-discuss
--000000000000a7ce4f057cfe0f69-- From nobody Fri Dec 14 12:59:26 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C279E1312EA for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 12:59:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l2nNqezRmoLP for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 12:59:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ed1-x531.google.com (mail-ed1-x531.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::531]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 17FF4127B4C for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 12:59:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ed1-x531.google.com with SMTP id y56so6001464edd.11 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 12:59:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:content-language:thread-index; bh=/+nBBEmAf8xnJeDfVHjyaCenmvrnHIAEb+sAwjP+KCM=; b=OkQc0Kyu0nWDjpRyY1utRXuWVraS0yNQgY3/reyLSG0K/fHV6nfP8wtrxI/lOdU0HD sym/aDkYThBZcWEUyEibyq7/NCXrK/zBkRx2Sim6JygRjDyQm8JzBEbAESgToGsDq3TW DAoDM1Ea+jp67IiIhziIzxjlI775u8ENT1qP0xhMdi3nrU/xiKYQEOJ6uRXHZjuM3Yot NRAWyPwuzjNacUCyKu7QAxkyWBHc2mUmQHWbFMo6qijN6WOKq73g+p7yxyRSNsucQbKd EwIkmQAbmPuR9D7MEP1n4EiAjh5UDRPmIzcPrJ5D0tnW7gfM1ZQGFOSopLccNBspqtMG ENXQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date :message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-language :thread-index; bh=/+nBBEmAf8xnJeDfVHjyaCenmvrnHIAEb+sAwjP+KCM=; b=Zy1JoS3TdYUd9CFnHet3tdEz+rBCJ3sYNU2Yn8j9e+5h7XmzWHmRI0LRdASDHFvqR2 7HleHRN1wRvA9fP3gbetkWYFzXwIobvZ73mDn6cdCPKwwwEjNnwk4STSaciG+jjSLAA3 tf0M9nLJeg8vPwyPykeXgkGF3ucbE/5kRZYLIY2U94Rjj0OxzJf8lTWqDJ662YGUzqr/ ug8CPM+DRn3PF5aVqbujN7ZcKv4F+v9bPPl2WIE4SUCxupEoqzsG7Hh66kddtoxdI90F IXP8VFmiRxuhpuDH3fNzY3yOMTJ2J6vG9eu3nqsrWJ069zy+CUfhIAMHIwYatQHgSP1v 3HqQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWYuP7Nr9MBQ5x9KQbPoN9jwDGSlVqJTV7/ScArAdTlDfJdDlE1a XNyKlKG4givXAIw8hgnopkCtUq3GVLM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/WTiAFaa3cD7aM7tmKzkReL0/PCFpcYqGj/rO3xAIeyZghh9dphD7TfaRTSq0OjVTfbS1NRGQ== X-Received: by 2002:a50:a5b8:: with SMTP id a53mr4400680edc.199.1544821160025; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 12:59:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from DESKTOPL58FD38 (5ED4324B.cm-7-5a.dynamic.ziggo.nl. [94.212.50.75]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x38sm1695671edx.24.2018.12.14.12.59.17 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Fri, 14 Dec 2018 12:59:18 -0800 (PST) From: To: References: In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 21:59:15 +0100 Message-ID: <001b01d493ef$e0238cc0$a06aa640$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Content-Language: nl Thread-Index: AQFNQF4UfU8he0W8TW9VwBoWiDZnbKaNXETA Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Architecture-discuss Digest, Vol 47, Issue 6 X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 20:59:25 -0000 Hi Ted, I know the Open Group methods and I think I am certified in most of them... but thats not my dilemma or question... maybe I am not explicit enough or I am not amble to explain myself enough... But I want to make/develop/design/architect a method for organizations who use DevOps to come from level of purpose to level of design.... this without to much documentations... but solid information which can be used in different perspectives within the organization.... also "coders".... Say I have a Business Case (method not relevant) or Business Question (Explicit)... To design this we can use Archimate3 (Motivation) or BMM... or IETF method? Then we could deisgn some Business Layers (of Processes) say BPMN? Or IETF? And maybe then some Service Design (with Participants and SoaML/UML...)??? Which results in say an WSDL (or Service Description)? I hope I can make my struggle clear...? Thanks again. Ben -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Architecture-discuss Namens architecture-discuss-request@ietf.org Verzonden: vrijdag 14 december 2018 21:00 Aan: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Onderwerp: Architecture-discuss Digest, Vol 47, Issue 6 Send Architecture-discuss mailing list submissions to architecture-discuss@ietf.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to architecture-discuss-request@ietf.org You can reach the person managing the list at architecture-discuss-owner@ietf.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Architecture-discuss digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Question about design, architecturing of services. (disruptivesolutionsnl@gmail.com) 2. Re: Question about design, architecturing of services. (Ted Hardie) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 21:06:38 +0100 From: To: Subject: [arch-d] Question about design, architecturing of services. Message-ID: <000901d4931f$5be68410$13b38c30$@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi all, I am new to this list. My question is about something i am researching. I am busy with a business question about Content Management. I have been using BMM (Business Motivation Model) and/or Archimate 3 (Motivation) and now I want to make "Service Descriptions". I allready have a WSDL and want to connect, with some explicity and details (DevOps reason) with the BMM artifacts and/or elements. So I have been looking at SoaML.. Does some-one has some examples or ideas if this is the way to go? I am also thinking about 1 page with all the information on it for the devops teams. Maybe per service (microservices). Thanks in advance. Ben -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 08:38:03 -0800 From: Ted Hardie To: disruptivesolutionsnl@gmail.com Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [arch-d] Question about design, architecturing of services. Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Hi Ben, Welcome to the list. The SoaML specification actually comes out of the Open Group, rather than the IETF, so you may find more resources for your question there. https://www.opengroup.org/forum/service-oriented-architecture-soa lists an architecture forum there may have more directed responses. kind regards, Ted Hardie On Thu, Dec 13, 2018 at 12:08 PM wrote: > Hi all, > > > > I am new to this list. > > > > My question is about something i am researching. I am busy with a > business question about Content Management. I have been using BMM > (Business Motivation Model) and/or Archimate 3 (Motivation) and now I > want to make ?Service Descriptions?. I allready have a WSDL and want > to connect, with some explicity and details (DevOps reason) with the > BMM artifacts and/or elements. So I have been looking at SoaML?. > > > > Does some-one has some examples or ideas if this is the way to go? I > am also thinking about 1 page with all the information on it for the > devops teams. Maybe per service (microservices). > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > Ben > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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