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Mon, 15 Apr 2019 19:44:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.30] ([118.148.72.205]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f71sm84103200pfc.109.2019.04.15.19.44.15 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 15 Apr 2019 19:44:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian E Carpenter To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Cc: "Liubing (Leo)" References: <155538136830.10806.5525996910171440427@ietfa.amsl.com> Message-ID: <6a7579d4-1f11-e790-cfa0-9fd49542ece6@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 14:44:15 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <155538136830.10806.5525996910171440427@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-limited-domains-07.txt X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 02:44:20 -0000 Hi, Another update following recent comments. The main changes were moving the taxonomy to an appendix, some new examples, and editorial improvements. Please send any new comments that you may have to int-area@ietf.org At the moment the authors plan to submit this draft soon to the Independent Submissions stream, but we'd be glad to hear any alternative suggestions. Regards Brian + Bing -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-limited-domains-07.txt Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 19:22:48 -0700 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : Limited Domains and Internet Protocols Authors : Brian Carpenter Bing Liu Filename : draft-carpenter-limited-domains-07.txt Pages : 25 Date : 2019-04-15 Abstract: There is a noticeable trend towards network requirements, behaviours and semantics that are specific to a limited region of the Internet and a particular set of requirements. Policies, default parameters, the options supported, the style of network management and security requirements may vary. This document reviews examples of such limited domains, also known as controlled environments, and emerging solutions, and includes a related taxonomy. It then briefly discusses the standardization of protocols for limited domains. Finally, it shows the needs for a precise definition of limited domain membership and for mechanisms to allow nodes to join a domain securely and to find other members, including boundary nodes. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-limited-domains/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-carpenter-limited-domains-07 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-carpenter-limited-domains-07 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-carpenter-limited-domains-07 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt From nobody Wed Apr 17 19:07:39 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3457912028E for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 19:07:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wkAdYgEQhQ7q for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 19:07:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x22b.google.com (mail-oi1-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A61A5120287 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 19:07:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x22b.google.com with SMTP id t81so378624oig.10 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 19:07:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=tjRkEvQ/QrEyHnZB4BTjn5npTDpDDUunOxd+Yz8RmCs=; b=XctwLmOBDfQtkrsBlzWrdoaY4uYCAMmFzluGeeNrPwkfcSpilwBbnZGtqiXvb4ZlC1 Vwa8d/+wS0ESMu/tOK04dadOd742/zN+1GV6KbahFzYoYD0NFVNNEJBi2bsW6Q8Q7PTS Z/aNNaalgIhfC9GlvfgLjvsYwhBoVMOalztlBO1oU1w3zVwW5Yujpvgcc+sX/K3WPVCc hXqCWJgA9qOkJmKWwFrmetYu7iVtKAMPJLjRzRHmwCEf8IAg0z7LG+XBh+eaA17wz7Of fIjerYEgVeipLa1we+HQiL+i+JDYAlWju+lQHclSBCKvn8g5qgrZlGQ3NZn6xBPgnMCh Q+og== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=tjRkEvQ/QrEyHnZB4BTjn5npTDpDDUunOxd+Yz8RmCs=; b=cv5JQM1BTQI9GfzB1/5UE5i8f5TSKTYUqhNwvq0LkTIfSN9t3INcK3hLv9yRxTiGO8 bVu5pDkYUBoap6zyfmXUJInAjS6+e5OO25x1fk19euT+8gtVzxUoNwhVGlqFek4ibqgX G3LOYGM+xqgErjYkRPmx1scZb8nIqxlwCmBmWcjBqU7kQwDr0eZjdD5NEPmO63ByvaBX ksVZGyWiJbpx73Zr1M09qI3kRVo2qmSmPMQfY53nszGv9yE8bl3+ozSfVK1KVjzb/bZt 84DiPgQJl/MqvESp3SqtcF9JQfRqrapwXhU1jFtzbkuMOaIB0z5aqf8xL4Olm09S7pQB ShEA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV5ig8jc0mj2jb7zAXDvFPOBAQsKiq15MXh71QzKE4exah2tPkm iHCdCjPEKBO6Drb4dDbl3wbixzQeanxbhZ6PjLetqg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyUEl+dylkU6YbWf6OojNpXeRMurQ26MPDDv2XElae/gfVW1ZxR+oUVEIe7bMIvefXcZCL8XQNPZBpjbqe800U= X-Received: by 2002:aca:e186:: with SMTP id y128mr403188oig.9.1555553254838; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 19:07:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a9d:2065:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 19:07:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 09:07:34 +0700 Message-ID: To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002f17b00586c477b3" Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] Internet and Architecture as Art X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 02:07:37 -0000 --0000000000002f17b00586c477b3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear All, (I wish that I do not repeate what were ever talked with in this architecture-discuss@ietf.org.) If we may say about "Architecture" is/as "Art" --regarding what Francis D.K. Ching said in his "Architecture: Form, Space and Order", John Wiley & Sons Inc, 2007, p. IX--, then "Internet Architecture" is/as "Internet Art". Thus supposedly this research --I finded out in such a "Library Tour"-- may work for the connection: ".art: Situating Internet Art in the Traditional Institution of Contemporary Art" by Karen A. Verschooren (MIT, 2007) http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/39149 discussing key players, institutions, and discourses on aesthetics, economy, and exhibition methodologies to frame a sociological analysis... "Based on the definitions of Steve Dietz and Alexander Galloway and inspired by Lisa Gitelman's understanding of protocols, I will thus in this volume define Internet art as that set of artworks, which uses Internet technology for its creation and presentation, and is characterized by a play with protocols, be they technical, economic, social or cultural". p.21 Regard, Guntur Wiseno Putra Note: To the matter I also ever sent the message to Information Architecture Community Group "Information, Architecture, and Art (April 18th 2019). --0000000000002f17b00586c477b3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear All,

(I wish that I do not repeate what = were ever talked with in this architecture-discuss@ietf.org.)

If w= e may say about "Architecture" is/as "Art" --regarding = what Francis D.K. Ching said in his "Architecture: Form, Space and Ord= er", John Wiley & Sons Inc, 2007, p. IX--, then "Internet Arc= hitecture" is/as "Internet Art".=C2=A0

=
Thus supposedly this research --I finded out in such a "Library = Tour"-- may work for the connection:

&quo= t;.art: Situating Internet Art in the Traditional Institution of Contempora= ry Art" by Karen A. Verschooren (MIT, 2007)


<= div style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:14px;line-height:22.120000839233= 4px">discussing key players, institutions, and discourses on aesthetics, ec= onomy, and exhibition methodologies to frame a sociological analysis...

"Based on the definitions of Steve Di= etz and Alexander Galloway and inspired by Lisa
Gitelman's un= derstanding of protocols, I will thus in this volume define Internet art as=
that set of artworks, which uses Internet technology for its cre= ation and presentation, and
is characterized by a play with proto= cols, be they technical, economic, social or cultural". p.21

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

<= /div>

Note: To the matter I also ever sent the message t= o Information Architecture Community Group "Information, Architecture,= and Art (April 18th 2019).
--0000000000002f17b00586c477b3-- From nobody Mon Apr 22 03:24:44 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4DAF12001A; Mon, 22 Apr 2019 03:24:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Eano027mha_y; Mon, 22 Apr 2019 03:24:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x22a.google.com (mail-oi1-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4705F120049; Mon, 22 Apr 2019 03:24:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x22a.google.com with SMTP id v10so8135033oib.1; Mon, 22 Apr 2019 03:24:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=hG/830vZdoV7x91CGl/fqHBw7cLjNAlPDRNuSO2xE+8=; b=F3YP552zrq00qcANZunCn3LjoxEX3E5EoYzK4byxoiDwudPkStS4GppLuFnKdBk+HT O+wZY7258J0GbmegEGt85AYByyX7ha7ISrHSGsLrGWYnBYetWVNRT7ZyggH8snZ9LS3J nWj7dtJwyOkYkvNI4za8wd0e5b+JcozTsR8EhffGaRauShstquaWK/DWEyEbstKvr5uT 47iqHh9v0xfoTDcmfctCPP+QsmAQTCR8qtEefCb9nhhEd4tprV4MB8IqiDj4h1JI8xAR OMGZK1SdjEQQ3Ga2CjV9U0bzMNnnhPIs3uhcVvYvk4HqZNH4VJHeEyYQ2H+txBAGey4M ofqQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=hG/830vZdoV7x91CGl/fqHBw7cLjNAlPDRNuSO2xE+8=; b=YNg3Axr+nB5efyNXpEzv/KPLKC754uutV+Og3asgfQY12o0UZeOAL5LGZtq7OjbWZP uBOL6Zgzlg6if/V8tGLuph0T0b/shJHSh57GuAzF46U4pXTApL17hmffFG/MKqG1ZXAI j/5RXzzZB2mRkf8b8OhnW5JKgiHi4NyqNRLIWwLTiXF7xgWG4NOZw2oLQIJZyYMboLIG 9oa8CS7PNZvAuo8WEvD79qjvp9kA6ktdVwTbT3XuHpEgygni27L83tfdlvoz00iT+KKh hlK4rRhXs+4TjQNK+iAPRibq771ftuq9varTIGPBFFX1I/iWEBa4b7yW3FsxsoZgMPq3 hUEg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV4JwSmsA//e/bp7p1TkmbjCpqzZkqCwdj5pDw80XO9o3GCXOaI pKfJYiEetNKz/I4fHNKV1rOu61A240fmtW/w4VPH1w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzlD4Nu5kx0hVXO6L0eFm/J3NiWS1GZgoF3AmltZiBw6mvwzZjbtfS3MrlLya9uqR8VS0heJHy62Fg+YczRS8M= X-Received: by 2002:aca:c5cd:: with SMTP id v196mr8865931oif.90.1555928667441; Mon, 22 Apr 2019 03:24:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a9d:2065:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Mon, 22 Apr 2019 03:24:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 17:24:27 +0700 Message-ID: To: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" , "internetgovtech@iab.org" , "nethistory@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000084cee705871bdfe7" Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 10:24:31 -0000 --00000000000084cee705871bdfe7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear All, Individuals, or collectifs of individuals, are in an age of the Internet. It is such a presence may be approached and sensed by many ways --even when one said that s/he had just eat a food which a receipt was gotten by communicating by the Internet. Among others there are presences of "the Internet Architecture", "Internet Governance and Technical Work" and "Net History" as they represent interest-based mailing lists. How could one get arrived into those matters (together) --such a programmatic readership/learning: as sources and concepts have history and discources collectives/net... ? Should we imagine about information sources by making such a readership based on the linkage between the three...? Thus we may say about "The Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical Works: a Net History" (to say "A Net History in Terms of The Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical Work)...? --there would be a discourse map on the special readership which is about a co-presence of mailing lists...? --as one may use search engines of each mailing list for related interests...? To make an engagement with the programme should we go with such tentative journeys considering parts of the special readership...? For example: By considering the reasoning above: To the question on "What is the Internet Architecture?" we may refer to (archival) sources "RFC 1958: Architectural Principles of the Internet" (Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996) https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1958 (Note:) It was a snapshot record of the principles of the Internet Achitecture intended for general guidance and general interest... It was updated by RFC 3439... Both the concept "Internet Architecture" and the document RFC 1958 have history bringing readers to other relevant sources... They supposedly also give suggestions to come to broader or other conceptual discourses on "governance and technical work" Regard, Guntur Wiseno Putra --00000000000084cee705871bdfe7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear All,

Individuals, or collectifs of individuals, are= in an age of the Internet. It is such a presence may be approached and sen= sed by many ways --even when one said that s/he had just eat a food which a= receipt was gotten by communicating by the Internet.

<= div>Among others there are presences of "the Internet Architecture&quo= t;, "Internet Governance and Technical Work" and "Net Histor= y" as they represent interest-based mailing lists. How could one get a= rrived into those matters (together) --such a programmatic readership/learn= ing: as sources and concepts have history and discources collectives/net...= ? Should we imagine about information sources by making such a readership = based on the linkage between the three...? Thus we may say about "The = Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical Works: a Net History" = (to say "A Net History in Terms of The Internet Architecture, Governan= ce and Technical Work)...? --there would be a discourse map on the special = readership which is about a co-presence of mailing lists...? --as one may u= se search engines of each mailing list for related interests...?
=
To make an engagement with the programme should we go with s= uch tentative journeys considering parts of the special readership...?


For example:=C2=A0
By conside= ring the reasoning above:

To the question on "= ;What is the Internet Architecture?" we may refer to (archival) source= s


"RFC 1958: Architectura= l Principles of the Internet"=C2=A0
(Carpenter, Brian E. Ed,= IAB, 1996)


(Note:)
It was a snapshot record of th= e principles of the Internet Achitecture intended for general guidance and = general interest...

It was updated by RFC 3439...<= /div>

Both the concept "Internet Architecture"= and the document RFC 1958 have history bringing readers to other relevant = sources... They supposedly also give suggestions to come to broader or othe= r conceptual discourses on "governance and technical work"
<= div>

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Put= ra
--00000000000084cee705871bdfe7-- From nobody Mon Apr 22 06:41:35 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF2C3120025; Mon, 22 Apr 2019 06:41:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rgJ68aDs8XBZ; Mon, 22 Apr 2019 06:41:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x235.google.com (mail-oi1-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 51A231200C5; Mon, 22 Apr 2019 06:41:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x235.google.com with SMTP id x188so8435191oia.13; Mon, 22 Apr 2019 06:41:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=NTedfByY8dQ4DreZlEyksK8eLDTRxCPOg3n1gjzekSw=; b=AzuuRfnzbxxcrLt7vrQLm4/kdBmZY/RCNFUkgNVqe5DW9+X2AA3soC7u1K4x6bbXcU rzWGhXOgHM4WMdQU4XMboCFK2Y0MtGGJdZV/vVc7i7BKk/QeO91n0eq12bGR4vP+tp+V JZR8x0P9zb8A7K5leNScaBL54thpfPaiaZPNNKXO4RSdrbzCXz/K8w7xeZW01yWPGzin ++hebHLqvalcByij+kmSXUDl92wuoBA11lnJ3jB/DcQlp5x357b280pjFrOJ/TadwvaB tpK6aqZaWB5Muq5UEWxNJGIWXYMhQqOK/jv5JRiKl1v5/43adpqUh8dVq2ZofODHb8C/ weGw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=NTedfByY8dQ4DreZlEyksK8eLDTRxCPOg3n1gjzekSw=; b=Ypjg5YdDZzEMfv1KetngCh74VLHaZWs9xvLewTQU9/T1axn5+JXcMY6Jt+cSFVLwTG 61Yn62UVdoxDYYvPVDCtEvS0se1DiemLhdUqadDCY3nGKex+Pps3e07yCYwLrhtTh7Xe liD+KiLXjdky/1F7pMQBJUebQy3JgeaZjKp8OECj7u/Zac69Jjh8Hht9Jn6YpfChTpJy bZa+3bwnqo7g1qu87zf0QlSlHKyI3dPt5QxEHTX40f0S0SadV2P4VD6rIk5bZlzuP9uh 2+etY1bqfFuG3dFxG3l610nZ92Yc334AplREpy8ZNTgBWCjPegoyjh6RRCE4pVmZJmf2 YByQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWnbVo3RAvAUhoULnX5bBOhevjfe6LufRBlAQTphbn1BjVebO/y 63ZH+IHMqmcSqEq8YUiTzcSZ0AUuZUMNijki830Nuw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwLPM9slYE/BKujKPlTfcuOZTYKExj8ZQpOs2XyH26NlDukWOvraCpXL+ik4b0UfTS8w4Dz5P9pXtMTxM7BHE0= X-Received: by 2002:aca:b587:: with SMTP id e129mr9449665oif.143.1555940485501; Mon, 22 Apr 2019 06:41:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a9d:2065:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Mon, 22 Apr 2019 06:41:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:41:25 +0700 Message-ID: To: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" , "internetgovtech@iab.org" , "nethistory@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ee177405871e9f54" Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 13:41:30 -0000 --000000000000ee177405871e9f54 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear All, Of the question "What is the Internet Architecture?" mentioned in the earlier message: Brian. E. Carpenter's text "RFC 1985: Architectural Principles of the Internet" mentioned about Internet protocols and their design: May this links helpful to get arrived there at related archives ( as the text did not use any online source but suppposedly paper ones as references)...: - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search?name= - https://www.rfc-editor.org/ Here are menus "Internet Standard", "Official Internet Protocol Standards", and "advanced search". Regard, Guntur Wiseno Putra Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra menulis: > Dear All, > > Individuals, or collectifs of individuals, are in an age of the Internet. > It is such a presence may be approached and sensed by many ways --even when > one said that s/he had just eat a food which a receipt was gotten by > communicating by the Internet. > > Among others there are presences of "the Internet Architecture", "Internet > Governance and Technical Work" and "Net History" as they represent > interest-based mailing lists. How could one get arrived into those matters > (together) --such a programmatic readership/learning: as sources and > concepts have history and discources collectives/net... ? Should we imagine > about information sources by making such a readership based on the linkage > between the three...? Thus we may say about "The Internet Architecture, > Governance and Technical Works: a Net History" (to say "A Net History in > Terms of The Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical Work)...? > --there would be a discourse map on the special readership which is about a > co-presence of mailing lists...? --as one may use search engines of each > mailing list for related interests...? > > To make an engagement with the programme should we go with such tentative > journeys considering parts of the special readership...? > > > For example: > By considering the reasoning above: > > To the question on "What is the Internet Architecture?" we may refer to > (archival) sources > > > "RFC 1958: Architectural Principles of the Internet" > (Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996) > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1958 > > > (Note:) > It was a snapshot record of the principles of the Internet Achitecture > intended for general guidance and general interest... > > It was updated by RFC 3439... > > Both the concept "Internet Architecture" and the document RFC 1958 have > history bringing readers to other relevant sources... They supposedly also > give suggestions to come to broader or other conceptual discourses on > "governance and technical work" > > > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra > --000000000000ee177405871e9f54 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear All,

Of the question "What is the Internet Arc= hitecture?" mentioned in the earlier message:


Brian. E. Carpenter's text "RFC 1985: Archite= ctural Principles of the Internet" mentioned about Internet protocols = and their design: May this links helpful to get arrived there at related ar= chives ( as the text did not use any online source but suppposedly paper on= es as references)...:



=C2=A0
=C2=A0 Here are =C2= =A0menus "Internet Standard", "Official Internet Protocol St= andards", and "advanced search".


Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pa= da Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear All,

Individuals, or collect= ifs of individuals, are in an age of the Internet. It is such a presence ma= y be approached and sensed by many ways --even when one said that s/he had = just eat a food which a receipt was gotten by communicating by the Internet= .

Among others there are presences of "the In= ternet Architecture", "Internet Governance and Technical Work&quo= t; and "Net History" as they represent interest-based mailing lis= ts. How could one get arrived into those matters (together) --such a progra= mmatic readership/learning: as sources and concepts have history and discou= rces collectives/net... ? Should we imagine about information sources by ma= king such a readership based on the linkage between the three...? Thus we m= ay say about "The Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical Work= s: a Net History" (to say "A Net History in Terms of The Internet= Architecture, Governance and Technical Work)...? --there would be a discou= rse map on the special readership which is about a co-presence of mailing l= ists...? --as one may use search engines of each mailing list for related i= nterests...?

To make an engagement with the progra= mme should we go with such tentative journeys considering parts of the spec= ial readership...?


For example:=C2= =A0
By considering the reasoning above:

= To the question on "What is the Internet Architecture?" we may re= fer to (archival) sources


&quo= t;RFC 1958: Architectural Principles of the Internet"=C2=A0
= (Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996)



(= Note:)
It was a snapshot record of the principles of the Internet= Achitecture intended for general guidance and general interest...

It was updated by RFC 3439...

Bot= h the concept "Internet Architecture" and the document RFC 1958 h= ave history bringing readers to other relevant sources... They supposedly a= lso give suggestions to come to broader or other conceptual discourses on &= quot;governance and technical work"

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra
--000000000000ee177405871e9f54-- From nobody Mon Apr 22 09:14:58 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A596120100; Mon, 22 Apr 2019 09:14:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5NBtwrDUncuL; Mon, 22 Apr 2019 09:14:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EAF1D120129; Mon, 22 Apr 2019 09:14:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id E8C95F8FDAB73A4D884B; Mon, 22 Apr 2019 17:14:41 +0100 (IST) Received: from SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.38) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Mon, 22 Apr 2019 17:14:41 +0100 Received: from SJCEML521-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.117]) by SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.74]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Mon, 22 Apr 2019 09:14:37 -0700 From: Hesham ElBakoury To: Guntur Wiseno Putra , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" , "internetgovtech@iab.org" , "nethistory@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci Thread-Index: AQHU+PWqSNmqgW44JEy8R5owda0hsqZIpZWA//+1NnA= Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 16:14:37 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.212.247.247] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C3855D43D6701846AD1151A536E7A0584F2A34D6sjceml521mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 16:14:47 -0000 --_000_C3855D43D6701846AD1151A536E7A0584F2A34D6sjceml521mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SSB0aGluayB5b3UgbWVhbnQgUkZDMTk1OCB3aGljaCBpcyB1cGRhdGVkIGJ5IFJGQzM0MzkuDQpI ZXNoYW0NCg0KRnJvbTogQXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJlLWRpc2N1c3MgW21haWx0bzphcmNoaXRlY3R1cmUt ZGlzY3Vzcy1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSBPbiBCZWhhbGYgT2YgR3VudHVyIFdpc2VubyBQdXRy 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(amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k9MYMTZzdZXO; Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:50:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x231.google.com (mail-oi1-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B4C9C1200C3; Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:50:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x231.google.com with SMTP id v84so10181186oif.4; Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:50:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=uTYYd5jVla/JALk3+jwAYATLpyQnm1RRp8NgifFllIY=; b=KWOvH6NgPzrkEaA/SP9qpHOP2+W0FWIPaZPJZBrsOEaan+L+hoNN1PQ7KaDmropOdD VNu7PGt7bEf6MAMGST+ElGfnJ/CxTfDtf6BJ3/3QV+txAgDtiOpnS/f/TS7VwvIEeFia azUd0GljBpkMKJ+vTLLXbQAh3tyvdnYF+lKvBkjqYPvYzaM9bJm1ovTNlb/RGC6nP241 jjaLIh1cWpQoNEk8JcNh50fVoi/zFhDjzgP2ZW+w4UReq07KEUF4d4wSTJ13NtHje9Gx 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-0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a9d:2065:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:50:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 10:50:22 +0700 Message-ID: To: Hesham ElBakoury Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" , "internetgovtech@iab.org" , "nethistory@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000ba8ad05872a7c15" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 03:50:26 -0000 --0000000000000ba8ad05872a7c15 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear Hesham and All, The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) in relation with the Internet in large scale... https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt Regard, Guntur Wiseno Putra Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury menulis: > I think you meant RFC1958 which is updated by RFC3439. > > Hesham > > > > *From:* Architecture-discuss [mailto:architecture-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] > *On Behalf Of *Guntur Wiseno Putra > *Sent:* Monday, April 22, 2019 6:41 AM > *To:* architecture-discuss@ietf.org; internetgovtech@iab.org; > nethistory@ietf.org > *Subject:* [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical > Work and Net History: A Speci > > > > Dear All, > > > > Of the question "What is the Internet Architecture?" mentioned in the > earlier message: > > > > > > Brian. E. Carpenter's text "RFC 1985: Architectural Principles of the > Internet" mentioned about Internet protocols and their design: May this > links helpful to get arrived there at related archives ( as the text did > not use any online source but suppposedly paper ones as references)...: > > > > > > - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search?name= > > > > - https://www.rfc-editor.org/ > > > > Here are menus "Internet Standard", "Official Internet Protocol > Standards", and "advanced search". > > > > > > > > Regard, > > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > menulis: > > Dear All, > > > > Individuals, or collectifs of individuals, are in an age of the Internet. > It is such a presence may be approached and sensed by many ways --even when > one said that s/he had just eat a food which a receipt was gotten by > communicating by the Internet.. > > > > Among others there are presences of "the Internet Architecture", "Internet > Governance and Technical Work" and "Net History" as they represent > interest-based mailing lists. How could one get arrived into those matters > (together) --such a programmatic readership/learning: as sources and > concepts have history and discources collectives/net... ? Should we imagine > about information sources by making such a readership based on the linkage > between the three...? Thus we may say about "The Internet Architecture, > Governance and Technical Works: a Net History" (to say "A Net History in > Terms of The Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical Work)...? > --there would be a discourse map on the special readership which is about a > co-presence of mailing lists...? --as one may use search engines of each > mailing list for related interests...? > > > > To make an engagement with the programme should we go with such tentative > journeys considering parts of the special readership...? > > > > > > For example: > > By considering the reasoning above: > > > > To the question on "What is the Internet Architecture?" we may refer to > (archival) sources > > > > > > "RFC 1958: Architectural Principles of the Internet" > > (Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996) > > > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1958 > > > > > > (Note:) > > It was a snapshot record of the principles of the Internet Achitecture > intended for general guidance and general interest... > > > > It was updated by RFC 3439... > > > > Both the concept "Internet Architecture" and the document RFC 1958 have > history bringing readers to other relevant sources... They supposedly also > give suggestions to come to broader or other conceptual discourses on > "governance and technical work" > > > > > > Regard, > > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > --0000000000000ba8ad05872a7c15 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Hesham and All,

The update "The Architectural = Guidelines" (2002) --which I missed before-- was made to propose such = an extension of "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996)= as the latter considered complexity (control) in relation with the Interne= t in large scale...



Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Pu= tra


Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com&g= t; menulis:

I think you meant RFC1958 which is up= dated by RFC3439.

Hesham

=C2=A0

From: Architecture-discuss [mailto:<= a href=3D"mailto:architecture-discuss-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">a= rchitecture-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Guntur Wiseno Putra
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2019 6:41 AM
To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org; internetgovtech@iab.org; nethistory@ietf.org
Subject: [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical = Work and Net History: A Speci

=C2=A0

Dear All,

=C2=A0

Of the question "What is the Internet Architect= ure?" mentioned in the earlier message:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Brian. E. Carpenter's text "RFC 1985: Archi= tectural Principles of the Internet" mentioned about Internet protocol= s and their design: May this links helpful to get arrived there at related = archives ( as the text did not use any online source but suppposedly paper ones as references)...:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 Here are =C2=A0menus "Internet Standard&= quot;, "Official Internet Protocol Standards", and "advanced= search".

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regard,

Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:=

Dear All,

=C2=A0

Individuals, or collectifs of individuals, are in an= age of the Internet. It is such a presence may be approached and sensed by= many ways --even when one said that s/he had just eat a food which a recei= pt was gotten by communicating by the Internet..

=C2=A0

Among others there are presences of "the Intern= et Architecture", "Internet Governance and Technical Work" a= nd "Net History" as they represent interest-based mailing lists. = How could one get arrived into those matters (together) --such a programmatic readership/learning: as sources and concepts have history and= discources collectives/net... ? Should we imagine about information source= s by making such a readership based on the linkage between the three...? Th= us we may say about "The Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical Works: a Net History" (to say = "A Net History in Terms of The Internet Architecture, Governance and T= echnical Work)...? --there would be a discourse map on the special readersh= ip which is about a co-presence of mailing lists...? --as one may use search engines of each mailing list for related= interests...?

=C2=A0

To make an engagement with the programme should we g= o with such tentative journeys considering parts of the special readership.= ..?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

For example:=C2=A0

By considering the reasoning above:

=C2=A0

To the question on "What is the Internet Archit= ecture?" we may refer to (archival) sources

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

"RFC 1958: Architectural Principles of the Inte= rnet"=C2=A0

(Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996)

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

(Note:)

It was a snapshot record of the principles of the In= ternet Achitecture intended for general guidance and general interest...=

=C2=A0

It was updated by RFC 3439...

=C2=A0

Both the concept "Internet Architecture" a= nd the document RFC 1958 have history bringing readers to other relevant so= urces... They supposedly also give suggestions to come to broader or other = conceptual discourses on "governance and technical work"

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regard,

Guntur Wiseno Putra

--0000000000000ba8ad05872a7c15-- From nobody Mon Apr 22 20:55:56 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C3711202F3; Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:55:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L2wWylmETxmj; Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:55:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x22f.google.com (mail-oi1-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE8A81200C3; 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Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:55:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a9d:2065:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:55:49 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 10:55:49 +0700 Message-ID: To: Hesham ElBakoury Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" , "internetgovtech@iab.org" , "nethistory@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000089b52f05872a8f85" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 03:55:53 -0000 --00000000000089b52f05872a8f85 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear Hesham and All, There is a need for correction for the earlier message: The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) in relation with the Internet in large scale... https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt It should be: The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the first considered complexity (control) in relation with the Internet in large scale... https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt Regard, Gintur Wiseno Putra Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra menulis: > Dear Hesham and All, > > The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I missed before-- > was made to propose such an extension of "Architectural Principles of the > Internet" (1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) in relation > with the Internet in large scale... > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt > > > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > > Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury > menulis: > >> I think you meant RFC1958 which is updated by RFC3439. >> >> Hesham >> >> >> >> *From:* Architecture-discuss [mailto:architecture-discuss-b >> ounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Guntur Wiseno Putra >> *Sent:* Monday, April 22, 2019 6:41 AM >> *To:* architecture-discuss@ietf.org; internetgovtech@iab.org; >> nethistory@ietf.org >> *Subject:* [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical >> Work and Net History: A Speci >> >> >> >> Dear All, >> >> >> >> Of the question "What is the Internet Architecture?" mentioned in the >> earlier message: >> >> >> >> >> >> Brian. E. Carpenter's text "RFC 1985: Architectural Principles of the >> Internet" mentioned about Internet protocols and their design: May this >> links helpful to get arrived there at related archives ( as the text did >> not use any online source but suppposedly paper ones as references)...: >> >> >> >> >> >> - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search?name= >> >> >> >> - https://www.rfc-editor.org/ >> >> >> >> Here are menus "Internet Standard", "Official Internet Protocol >> Standards", and "advanced search". >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Regard, >> >> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >> menulis: >> >> Dear All, >> >> >> >> Individuals, or collectifs of individuals, are in an age of the Internet. >> It is such a presence may be approached and sensed by many ways --even when >> one said that s/he had just eat a food which a receipt was gotten by >> communicating by the Internet.. >> >> >> >> Among others there are presences of "the Internet Architecture", >> "Internet Governance and Technical Work" and "Net History" as they >> represent interest-based mailing lists. How could one get arrived into >> those matters (together) --such a programmatic readership/learning: as >> sources and concepts have history and discources collectives/net... ? >> Should we imagine about information sources by making such a readership >> based on the linkage between the three...? Thus we may say about "The >> Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical Works: a Net History" (to >> say "A Net History in Terms of The Internet Architecture, Governance and >> Technical Work)...? --there would be a discourse map on the special >> readership which is about a co-presence of mailing lists...? --as one may >> use search engines of each mailing list for related interests...? >> >> >> >> To make an engagement with the programme should we go with such tentative >> journeys considering parts of the special readership...? >> >> >> >> >> >> For example: >> >> By considering the reasoning above: >> >> >> >> To the question on "What is the Internet Architecture?" we may refer to >> (archival) sources >> >> >> >> >> >> "RFC 1958: Architectural Principles of the Internet" >> >> (Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996) >> >> >> >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1958 >> >> >> >> >> >> (Note:) >> >> It was a snapshot record of the principles of the Internet Achitecture >> intended for general guidance and general interest... >> >> >> >> It was updated by RFC 3439... >> >> >> >> Both the concept "Internet Architecture" and the document RFC 1958 have >> history bringing readers to other relevant sources... They supposedly also >> give suggestions to come to broader or other conceptual discourses on >> "governance and technical work" >> >> >> >> >> >> Regard, >> >> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >> --00000000000089b52f05872a8f85 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Hesham and All,


There is a need for = correction for the earlier message:

The updat= e "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I missed before--= was made to propose such an extension of "Architectural Principles of= the Internet" (1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) in= relation with the Internet in large scale...


It should be:

The update "The Arch= itectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I missed before-- was made to pro= pose such an extension of "Architectural Principles of the Internet&qu= ot; (1996) as the first considered complexity (control) in relation with th= e Internet in large scale...



<= div>Regard,
Gintur Wiseno Putra

Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019= , Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmai= l.com> menulis:
Dear Hesham and Al= l,

The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (= 2002) --which I missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of &q= uot;Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the latter con= sidered complexity (control) in relation with the Internet in large scale..= .





Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury <= Hesham.ElB= akoury@huawei.com> menulis:

I think you meant RFC1958 which is up= dated by RFC3439.

Hesham

=C2=A0

From: Architecture-discuss [mailto:<= a href=3D"mailto:architecture-discuss-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">a= rchitecture-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Guntur Wiseno Putra
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2019 6:41 AM
To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org; internetgovtech@iab.org; nethistory@ietf.org
Subject: [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical = Work and Net History: A Speci

=C2=A0

Dear All,

=C2=A0

Of the question "What is the Internet Architect= ure?" mentioned in the earlier message:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Brian. E. Carpenter's text "RFC 1985: Archi= tectural Principles of the Internet" mentioned about Internet protocol= s and their design: May this links helpful to get arrived there at related = archives ( as the text did not use any online source but suppposedly paper ones as references)...:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 Here are =C2=A0menus "Internet Standard&= quot;, "Official Internet Protocol Standards", and "advanced= search".

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regard,

Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:=

Dear All,

=C2=A0

Individuals, or collectifs of individuals, are in an= age of the Internet. It is such a presence may be approached and sensed by= many ways --even when one said that s/he had just eat a food which a recei= pt was gotten by communicating by the Internet..

=C2=A0

Among others there are presences of "the Intern= et Architecture", "Internet Governance and Technical Work" a= nd "Net History" as they represent interest-based mailing lists. = How could one get arrived into those matters (together) --such a programmatic readership/learning: as sources and concepts have history and= discources collectives/net... ? Should we imagine about information source= s by making such a readership based on the linkage between the three...? Th= us we may say about "The Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical Works: a Net History" (to say = "A Net History in Terms of The Internet Architecture, Governance and T= echnical Work)...? --there would be a discourse map on the special readersh= ip which is about a co-presence of mailing lists...? --as one may use search engines of each mailing list for related= interests...?

=C2=A0

To make an engagement with the programme should we g= o with such tentative journeys considering parts of the special readership.= ..?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

For example:=C2=A0

By considering the reasoning above:

=C2=A0

To the question on "What is the Internet Archit= ecture?" we may refer to (archival) sources

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

"RFC 1958: Architectural Principles of the Inte= rnet"=C2=A0

(Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996)

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

(Note:)

It was a snapshot record of the principles of the In= ternet Achitecture intended for general guidance and general interest...=

=C2=A0

It was updated by RFC 3439...

=C2=A0

Both the concept "Internet Architecture" a= nd the document RFC 1958 have history bringing readers to other relevant so= urces... They supposedly also give suggestions to come to broader or other = conceptual discourses on "governance and technical work"

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regard,

Guntur Wiseno Putra

--00000000000089b52f05872a8f85-- From nobody Tue Apr 23 05:21:38 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C91B812007C; Tue, 23 Apr 2019 05:21:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TKEiv8BodSdi; Tue, 23 Apr 2019 05:21:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x330.google.com (mail-ot1-x330.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::330]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 967711200C1; Tue, 23 Apr 2019 05:21:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x330.google.com with SMTP id u15so12558865otq.10; Tue, 23 Apr 2019 05:21:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=7qpZ4y/AQeRL1pslHYB61q2ncpeYSefxRZ5Sp4avmXU=; b=I4paJrdjmopnc1IeWbUbdxTjsncPlfm3ZWotV+SXH/7aKB3KO9X6A/aLLTBaa56OyW th0nVLHTOhZapjviujEnXI4d1Xa1hM1jnngBkd0Yo/2xHviZndte0b/tuKJd9wsAj0vq 5kmoyWCLiMTA2iRbP/6FYNQ5ojQgE/tAzbUa5OM2WePD1IjwUi19ynJZcFWO0jmxwosX +OCJreCoQX/o4chFStB7uu0/4b3JpIoAMmFm4AQlYu2stsrt7hOSzNPK1/KEiM62ZLRz CT5fCH3ya6W5KeQE5nuHLdy326ojQ3Y/kIEYne8i5v1dxDjAXc/VA41s2mXx4nRGNM8W 9jJw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=7qpZ4y/AQeRL1pslHYB61q2ncpeYSefxRZ5Sp4avmXU=; b=kWcin00a7KKC1Fx9zA4+EBFNxQLy7LklOrC6Z3qvz3JZVO1j6Gep+xq9vqnFS2Cvr1 2eLrBwigqUvoeHxZCw7PsNi1RC1/zSzp9S8M358Mys8IucTRfSW2WjnUkXLB4mqlzu/Z i0sFVcOjg4h7EsCKVMUWgvE6cKmRMQSbK13l+mxIUp9brtr1jfLXFIRtk4f0qkcSczIz uALdAH+hkVzkrAvHe9qzsZfFhnqGHmkI/VqZ7nz1lFTLEvVBFmwLmpfefwsrocBDXrT9 g0r+OsBJyxjoGJySIrh+Nvd7F3Ngc4q1VXSgQw/4yfqyQk5ndYB6kDYkhWPUr03rZtMn OevA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV7cwy4iTwf3As/4nSZyIV2VFLiq7ugtAw/LUuc4YOBZ2u7SoEm s2t/xnJl46eDjTPCfHej/6ImViQT7bW10kA5WiY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx512G8hN0yPkIB8l53ywufUcHoCaH5MXd9ZrIO+oF/9fnJUT8hm1fym4D9EO+O+ryj/CKSvnJnLYb7GGAg4ug= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:665a:: with SMTP id q26mr14290996otm.185.1556022084788; Tue, 23 Apr 2019 05:21:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a9d:2065:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 23 Apr 2019 05:21:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 19:21:24 +0700 Message-ID: To: Hesham ElBakoury Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" , "internetgovtech@iab.org" , "nethistory@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a0676f0587319f12" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 12:21:29 -0000 --000000000000a0676f0587319f12 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear All, As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture" to Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to mention "RFC 791: Internet Protocol" (J. Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- those obsolete and updates: which is about the name/title "Internet Protocol" they have.... https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791 Regard, Guntur Wiseno Putra Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra menulis: > Dear Hesham and All, > > > There is a need for correction for the earlier message: > > The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I missed before-- > was made to propose such an extension of "Architectural Principles of the > Internet" (1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) in relation > with the Internet in large scale... > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt > > It should be: > > The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I missed before-- > was made to propose such an extension of "Architectural Principles of the > Internet" (1996) as the first considered complexity (control) in relation > with the Internet in large scale... > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt > > > Regard, > Gintur Wiseno Putra > > Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > menulis: > >> Dear Hesham and All, >> >> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I missed >> before-- was made to propose such an extension of "Architectural Principles >> of the Internet" (1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) in >> relation with the Internet in large scale... >> >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt >> >> >> Regard, >> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >> >> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury >> menulis: >> >>> I think you meant RFC1958 which is updated by RFC3439. >>> >>> Hesham >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Architecture-discuss [mailto:architecture-discuss-b >>> ounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> *Sent:* Monday, April 22, 2019 6:41 AM >>> *To:* architecture-discuss@ietf.org; internetgovtech@iab.org; >>> nethistory@ietf.org >>> *Subject:* [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical >>> Work and Net History: A Speci >>> >>> >>> >>> Dear All, >>> >>> >>> >>> Of the question "What is the Internet Architecture?" mentioned in the >>> earlier message: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Brian. E. Carpenter's text "RFC 1985: Architectural Principles of the >>> Internet" mentioned about Internet protocols and their design: May this >>> links helpful to get arrived there at related archives ( as the text did >>> not use any online source but suppposedly paper ones as references)...: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search?name= >>> >>> >>> >>> - https://www.rfc-editor.org/ >>> >>> >>> >>> Here are menus "Internet Standard", "Official Internet Protocol >>> Standards", and "advanced search". >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Regard, >>> >>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> >>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> menulis: >>> >>> Dear All, >>> >>> >>> >>> Individuals, or collectifs of individuals, are in an age of the >>> Internet. It is such a presence may be approached and sensed by many ways >>> --even when one said that s/he had just eat a food which a receipt was >>> gotten by communicating by the Internet.. >>> >>> >>> >>> Among others there are presences of "the Internet Architecture", >>> "Internet Governance and Technical Work" and "Net History" as they >>> represent interest-based mailing lists. How could one get arrived into >>> those matters (together) --such a programmatic readership/learning: as >>> sources and concepts have history and discources collectives/net... ? >>> Should we imagine about information sources by making such a readership >>> based on the linkage between the three...? Thus we may say about "The >>> Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical Works: a Net History" (to >>> say "A Net History in Terms of The Internet Architecture, Governance and >>> Technical Work)...? --there would be a discourse map on the special >>> readership which is about a co-presence of mailing lists...? --as one may >>> use search engines of each mailing list for related interests...? >>> >>> >>> >>> To make an engagement with the programme should we go with such >>> tentative journeys considering parts of the special readership...? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> For example: >>> >>> By considering the reasoning above: >>> >>> >>> >>> To the question on "What is the Internet Architecture?" we may refer to >>> (archival) sources >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> "RFC 1958: Architectural Principles of the Internet" >>> >>> (Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996) >>> >>> >>> >>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1958 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> (Note:) >>> >>> It was a snapshot record of the principles of the Internet Achitecture >>> intended for general guidance and general interest... >>> >>> >>> >>> It was updated by RFC 3439... >>> >>> >>> >>> Both the concept "Internet Architecture" and the document RFC 1958 have >>> history bringing readers to other relevant sources... They supposedly also >>> give suggestions to come to broader or other conceptual discourses on >>> "governance and technical work" >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Regard, >>> >>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> >>> --000000000000a0676f0587319f12 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear All,

As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Inter= net Architecture" to Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned i= n my message April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to mention &quo= t;RFC 791: Internet Protocol" (J. Postel, September 1981) and its hist= ories -- those obsolete and updates: which is about the name/title "In= ternet Protocol" they have....


Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra
=
Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear Hesham and All,


There = is a need for correction for the earlier message:

=
The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I m= issed before-- was made to propose such an extension of "Architectural= Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the latter considered complexit= y (control) in relation with the Internet in large scale...
=

It should be:

The update = "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I missed before-- w= as made to propose such an extension of "Architectural Principles of t= he Internet" (1996) as the first considered complexity (control) in re= lation with the Internet in large scale...



Regard,
Gintur Wiseno Putra

Pada Selasa,= 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear Hesham and All,

The update "The = Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I missed before-- was made to= propose such an extension of "Architectural Principles of the Interne= t" (1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) in relation wi= th the Internet in large scale...



Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra


Pada Senin, 22 A= pril 2019, Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com> menulis:

I think you meant RFC1958 which is up= dated by RFC3439.

Hesham

=C2=A0

From: Architecture-discuss [mailto:<= a href=3D"mailto:architecture-discuss-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">a= rchitecture-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Guntur Wiseno Putra
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2019 6:41 AM
To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org; internetgovtech@iab.org; nethistory@ietf.org
Subject: [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical = Work and Net History: A Speci

=C2=A0

Dear All,

=C2=A0

Of the question "What is the Internet Architect= ure?" mentioned in the earlier message:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Brian. E. Carpenter's text "RFC 1985: Archi= tectural Principles of the Internet" mentioned about Internet protocol= s and their design: May this links helpful to get arrived there at related = archives ( as the text did not use any online source but suppposedly paper ones as references)...:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 Here are =C2=A0menus "Internet Standard&= quot;, "Official Internet Protocol Standards", and "advanced= search".

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regard,

Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:=

Dear All,

=C2=A0

Individuals, or collectifs of individuals, are in an= age of the Internet. It is such a presence may be approached and sensed by= many ways --even when one said that s/he had just eat a food which a recei= pt was gotten by communicating by the Internet..

=C2=A0

Among others there are presences of "the Intern= et Architecture", "Internet Governance and Technical Work" a= nd "Net History" as they represent interest-based mailing lists. = How could one get arrived into those matters (together) --such a programmatic readership/learning: as sources and concepts have history and= discources collectives/net... ? Should we imagine about information source= s by making such a readership based on the linkage between the three...? Th= us we may say about "The Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical Works: a Net History" (to say = "A Net History in Terms of The Internet Architecture, Governance and T= echnical Work)...? --there would be a discourse map on the special readersh= ip which is about a co-presence of mailing lists...? --as one may use search engines of each mailing list for related= interests...?

=C2=A0

To make an engagement with the programme should we g= o with such tentative journeys considering parts of the special readership.= ..?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

For example:=C2=A0

By considering the reasoning above:

=C2=A0

To the question on "What is the Internet Archit= ecture?" we may refer to (archival) sources

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

"RFC 1958: Architectural Principles of the Inte= rnet"=C2=A0

(Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996)

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

(Note:)

It was a snapshot record of the principles of the In= ternet Achitecture intended for general guidance and general interest...=

=C2=A0

It was updated by RFC 3439...

=C2=A0

Both the concept "Internet Architecture" a= nd the document RFC 1958 have history bringing readers to other relevant so= urces... They supposedly also give suggestions to come to broader or other = conceptual discourses on "governance and technical work"

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regard,

Guntur Wiseno Putra

--000000000000a0676f0587319f12-- From nobody Tue Apr 23 05:44:16 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C9251200FA; Tue, 23 Apr 2019 05:44:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u46C7NlISfuV; Tue, 23 Apr 2019 05:44:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x22e.google.com (mail-oi1-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B8ED1200D6; Tue, 23 Apr 2019 05:44:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x22e.google.com with SMTP id k10so632443oik.7; Tue, 23 Apr 2019 05:44:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=mJXyH5hSYt2CLKhUcp65ZJyFbqrnhgb+Q88oJRcKE8Q=; b=bKSJsjZHXLCpSAFZ7XT5F7hFej/BC0S0YslWrWYTri4D8e0y+Dj2Z6nZSWIqsqgSTx 0AgUO0GrBQeBQrwZ/mjfBNVbny22gkfhUW6dPqS/JzOoE7G8R/DbrmeoDRLv80QQfks6 gLKZCv1kflcz7hIKBuOA69S6dwsGCsOfbI3nim0OkPVNrSAk9cLx8napmyTgzUIRCtl3 5YNcEwnEfkUhX/JcSsy9e5pJoF0yuKZE4nBiA2FfO/NU3sg6VO9RRstqqGoBrzhKknz+ U+ILCc4THppq8EkG4e02zezIkzL6sXDpHqaPpUfHhiln1TQ1D3AVhogc60Z1VYSGvocb rtvA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=mJXyH5hSYt2CLKhUcp65ZJyFbqrnhgb+Q88oJRcKE8Q=; b=eF3iwjS6pDYJFS3DgPFhUqZecWTOd8qXH9LXRXsYxhAhPC73vopcLYZEQYSy4KdN/Z YnqSwd+4BRp2ztpVxijep1vC0mEcbs9+8jqiEdsjAlX3o3MpX45Sh5iNGq8YyfQ48+w/ PHiCGeC4M1fmDmF7nnP11MXjA8Z47FDHPGWBd6jOsPE9xEGzY1eqEuEWCM/spVoNmDFj 0/ocIdFYXcK59z7y4TPvLleK0b2Lrd8rKZVWfGeINPgBvbh1SMFumgGYn/gnGVIDn6NE OV9Or9dusPJfzsXcRkZN/XoRD49yMNHew+utjRV4GnRojsGJVELqBbe3v/kvxeQF21CX KjtQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXoW48t+PBDHut6IOVyS6oUACazJTR4mi4k1j7FTG15W7q823jb XhwNB1GDyynrZVVXSKOqveqA4UmOafmebPd9S5o= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwpNyR4Ydrr48qldjCccGiL9PETexQtCzlB8VXmVmfaphdR9ejNQ3Cou6CgpE5HdGuVUzrdKSrHbEmShBwQ2IU= X-Received: by 2002:aca:5592:: with SMTP id j140mr1689427oib.128.1556023441761; Tue, 23 Apr 2019 05:44:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a9d:2065:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 23 Apr 2019 05:44:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 19:44:01 +0700 Message-ID: To: Hesham ElBakoury Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" , "internetgovtech@iab.org" , "nethistory@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008228a9058731f0e8" Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 12:44:07 -0000 --0000000000008228a9058731f0e8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear All, As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture" to Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to mention "RFC 791: Internet Protocol" (J. Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- those obsolete and updates: which is about the name/title "Internet Protocol" they have... https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791 The RFC 791 is one of Official Internet Protocol Standards: Internet Standards --of which there are ones do not use terms "Internet Protocol" -- for examples "Transmission Control Protocol", "User Datagram Protocol", " Broadcasting Internet Datagrams"... https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards Regard, Guntur Wiseno Putra Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra menulis: > Dear All, > > As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture" to Internet > protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message April 21st 2019): it > looks "special" to mention "RFC 791: Internet Protocol" (J. Postel, > September 1981) and its histories -- those obsolete and updates: which is > about the name/title "Internet Protocol" they have.... > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791 > > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > menulis: > >> Dear Hesham and All, >> >> >> There is a need for correction for the earlier message: >> >> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I missed >> before-- was made to propose such an extension of "Architectural Principles >> of the Internet" (1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) in >> relation with the Internet in large scale... >> >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt >> >> It should be: >> >> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I missed >> before-- was made to propose such an extension of "Architectural Principles >> of the Internet" (1996) as the first considered complexity (control) in >> relation with the Internet in large scale... >> >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt >> >> >> Regard, >> Gintur Wiseno Putra >> >> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >> menulis: >> >>> Dear Hesham and All, >>> >>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I missed >>> before-- was made to propose such an extension of "Architectural Principles >>> of the Internet" (1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) in >>> relation with the Internet in large scale... >>> >>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt >>> >>> >>> Regard, >>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> >>> >>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury >>> menulis: >>> >>>> I think you meant RFC1958 which is updated by RFC3439. >>>> >>>> Hesham >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Architecture-discuss [mailto:architecture-discuss-b >>>> ounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>> *Sent:* Monday, April 22, 2019 6:41 AM >>>> *To:* architecture-discuss@ietf.org; internetgovtech@iab.org; >>>> nethistory@ietf.org >>>> *Subject:* [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical >>>> Work and Net History: A Speci >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Dear All, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Of the question "What is the Internet Architecture?" mentioned in the >>>> earlier message: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Brian. E. Carpenter's text "RFC 1985: Architectural Principles of the >>>> Internet" mentioned about Internet protocols and their design: May this >>>> links helpful to get arrived there at related archives ( as the text did >>>> not use any online source but suppposedly paper ones as references)...: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search?name= >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> - https://www.rfc-editor.org/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Here are menus "Internet Standard", "Official Internet Protocol >>>> Standards", and "advanced search". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Regard, >>>> >>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>> >>>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>> menulis: >>>> >>>> Dear All, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Individuals, or collectifs of individuals, are in an age of the >>>> Internet. It is such a presence may be approached and sensed by many ways >>>> --even when one said that s/he had just eat a food which a receipt was >>>> gotten by communicating by the Internet.. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Among others there are presences of "the Internet Architecture", >>>> "Internet Governance and Technical Work" and "Net History" as they >>>> represent interest-based mailing lists. How could one get arrived into >>>> those matters (together) --such a programmatic readership/learning: as >>>> sources and concepts have history and discources collectives/net... ? >>>> Should we imagine about information sources by making such a readership >>>> based on the linkage between the three...? Thus we may say about "The >>>> Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical Works: a Net History" (to >>>> say "A Net History in Terms of The Internet Architecture, Governance and >>>> Technical Work)...? --there would be a discourse map on the special >>>> readership which is about a co-presence of mailing lists...? --as one may >>>> use search engines of each mailing list for related interests...? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> To make an engagement with the programme should we go with such >>>> tentative journeys considering parts of the special readership...? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> For example: >>>> >>>> By considering the reasoning above: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> To the question on "What is the Internet Architecture?" we may refer to >>>> (archival) sources >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> "RFC 1958: Architectural Principles of the Internet" >>>> >>>> (Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1958 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> (Note:) >>>> >>>> It was a snapshot record of the principles of the Internet Achitecture >>>> intended for general guidance and general interest... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It was updated by RFC 3439... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Both the concept "Internet Architecture" and the document RFC 1958 have >>>> history bringing readers to other relevant sources... They supposedly also >>>> give suggestions to come to broader or other conceptual discourses on >>>> "governance and technical work" >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Regard, >>>> >>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>> >>>> --0000000000008228a9058731f0e8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear All,

As Brian E. Carpenter referred= the "Internet Architecture" to Internet protocols and their desi= gns (mentioned in my message April 21st 2019): it looks "special"= to mention "RFC 791: Internet Protocol" (J. Postel, September 19= 81) and its histories -- those obsolete and updates: which is about the nam= e/title "Internet Protocol" they have...

htt= ps://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791

The RFC 791 is one of Official Internet Protocol Standards: Internet Stand= ards --of which there are ones do not use terms "Internet Protocol&quo= t; -- for examples "Transmission Control Protocol", "User Da= tagram Protocol", " Broadcasting Internet Datagrams"...


Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Selasa, 23 April 201= 9, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear All,

As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Inte= rnet Architecture" to Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned = in my message April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to mention &qu= ot;RFC 791: Internet Protocol" (J. Postel, September 1981) and its his= tories -- those obsolete and updates: which is about the name/title "I= nternet Protocol" they have....


Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra= <gsenopu@gmail.c= om> menulis:
Dear Hesham and All,<= div>

There is a need for correction for the ea= rlier message:

The update "The Architect= ural Guidelines" (2002) --which I missed before-- was made to propose = such an extension of "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (= 1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) in relation with the In= ternet in large scale...


It should be:

The update "The Architectural Guidelines&= quot; (2002) --which I missed before-- was made to propose such an extensio= n of "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the fir= st considered complexity (control) in relation with the Internet in large s= cale...



Regard,
Gintur Wiseno Putra

Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra= <gsenopu@gmail.c= om> menulis:
Dear Hesham and All,<= div>
The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (200= 2) --which I missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of "= ;Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the latter consid= ered complexity (control) in relation with the Internet in large scale...



Regard,
Guntur Wiseno = Putra


Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBako= ury@huawei.com> menulis:

I think you meant RFC1958 which is up= dated by RFC3439.

Hesham

=C2=A0

From: Architecture-discuss [mailto:<= a href=3D"mailto:architecture-discuss-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">a= rchitecture-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Guntur Wiseno Putra
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2019 6:41 AM
To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org; internetgovtech@iab.org; nethistory@ietf.org
Subject: [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical = Work and Net History: A Speci

=C2=A0

Dear All,

=C2=A0

Of the question "What is the Internet Architect= ure?" mentioned in the earlier message:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Brian. E. Carpenter's text "RFC 1985: Archi= tectural Principles of the Internet" mentioned about Internet protocol= s and their design: May this links helpful to get arrived there at related = archives ( as the text did not use any online source but suppposedly paper ones as references)...:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 Here are =C2=A0menus "Internet Standard&= quot;, "Official Internet Protocol Standards", and "advanced= search".

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regard,

Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:=

Dear All,

=C2=A0

Individuals, or collectifs of individuals, are in an= age of the Internet. It is such a presence may be approached and sensed by= many ways --even when one said that s/he had just eat a food which a recei= pt was gotten by communicating by the Internet..

=C2=A0

Among others there are presences of "the Intern= et Architecture", "Internet Governance and Technical Work" a= nd "Net History" as they represent interest-based mailing lists. = How could one get arrived into those matters (together) --such a programmatic readership/learning: as sources and concepts have history and= discources collectives/net... ? Should we imagine about information source= s by making such a readership based on the linkage between the three...? Th= us we may say about "The Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical Works: a Net History" (to say = "A Net History in Terms of The Internet Architecture, Governance and T= echnical Work)...? --there would be a discourse map on the special readersh= ip which is about a co-presence of mailing lists...? --as one may use search engines of each mailing list for related= interests...?

=C2=A0

To make an engagement with the programme should we g= o with such tentative journeys considering parts of the special readership.= ..?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

For example:=C2=A0

By considering the reasoning above:

=C2=A0

To the question on "What is the Internet Archit= ecture?" we may refer to (archival) sources

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

"RFC 1958: Architectural Principles of the Inte= rnet"=C2=A0

(Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996)

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

(Note:)

It was a snapshot record of the principles of the In= ternet Achitecture intended for general guidance and general interest...=

=C2=A0

It was updated by RFC 3439...

=C2=A0

Both the concept "Internet Architecture" a= nd the document RFC 1958 have history bringing readers to other relevant so= urces... They supposedly also give suggestions to come to broader or other = conceptual discourses on "governance and technical work"

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regard,

Guntur Wiseno Putra

--0000000000008228a9058731f0e8-- From nobody Wed Apr 24 00:13:27 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C274A1202FA; Wed, 24 Apr 2019 00:13:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P6_ZsmkjNsCi; Wed, 24 Apr 2019 00:13:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x32b.google.com (mail-ot1-x32b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D6D5F1202F3; Wed, 24 Apr 2019 00:13:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x32b.google.com with SMTP id a25so2579725otq.3; Wed, 24 Apr 2019 00:13:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=6zk3Pzui+0/dQxFVIpXRFdFcvRlZmmBXS0bC4ukmPvU=; b=LeMEzFIMqRykRzquAQ05oqX9OmDRa/U+Jmg0T1Bbaz+xcMugmhaPTAimso/ac+M3yN Niq/TRSU4T5r7D5s3gm+35fYija86kgP2ujfrjXlyFOnOlMZuiiNM0wBOBUWtxF9xnzq KXLyvJGcRBNmeMpFaHBvOEouVbsLO+LRFMcla+0IYzOnleeaD/sJhoGWKErDAjaxDnqB S+wic2H5g/1IcBVHTg7krgyOuff32O+oMU+S+wdwyc4fRmWlX12mcRJP6JDsqDlO86Ji VVCH4Aj2czSes+gcYHk7iWKmCQ7Rb3iRVQawF/n5euvhK1tSKj1Sp9yoctQ9KEIgPmMa 5GyQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=6zk3Pzui+0/dQxFVIpXRFdFcvRlZmmBXS0bC4ukmPvU=; b=dMYe+OolHnm4Lt0ANyQOcDQ2bunouHgRmiZ1ZG+M8TqRQmQlhb/3G/Ltb8R1KHIF/f xtnLu6UXsyQEocrD0kfg/Ci22UnDLTV9jmrRw1qluWA+N8eeJ8V0mrQ3SKlJN6FmIFUB 4eF4fWe482nukBEvJb9G31apWFEe0DpKoCPtvKp2G6H+JU6v/Mpu8/jsolv4henQrF9o q7T8COazMb8ydpQGk/W3NoKBpG+lLLaJogBpFBpY3q9pwz10jCPT4Rm9TwEDi1bSDPkI xO/HcmPvx6vrWpOGj0EH5YhgceT4gReRmIFAyMBqSL56eAN9vyNLQyiGBQF3Qul2J64T QR7A== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX4MJLrzuY87l68RX6DAHjSQWQ5CLPEUF3TnR5XihSKEVMICpoy GV0QQWNbJHweSsjf5MvShQrZgNBb4SUpBzOistY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxgsx07Ku4k9r+bCnd+u61q1xmqqryDRhtGoOHCd+WgiReOoMNoz/oEYxocpddaHCaSIpNOuOK17Ij0EfxoKsc= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:4d0b:: with SMTP id n11mr17400779otf.98.1556089990290; Wed, 24 Apr 2019 00:13:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a9d:2065:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Wed, 24 Apr 2019 00:13:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 14:13:09 +0700 Message-ID: To: Hesham ElBakoury Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" , "internetgovtech@iab.org" , "nethistory@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001c1f9e0587416fe6" Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 07:13:16 -0000 --0000000000001c1f9e0587416fe6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear All, The websites www.datatracker.ietf.org and www.rfc-editor.org are historians for the services of historical archives the provide. While a personal historian may deserve to mention, especially on the "Internet Architecture": D. Thaler documented aspects of Internet Protocol service model as they evolved over time .... Some guidence for protocol designers an implementers were also suggested... "RFC 6250: Evolution of IP Service Model" (IAB, May 2011) https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6250 Regard, Guntur Wiseno Putra Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra menulis: > Dear All, > > As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture" to Internet > protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message April 21st 2019): it > looks "special" to mention "RFC 791: Internet Protocol" (J. Postel, > September 1981) and its histories -- those obsolete and updates: which is > about the name/title "Internet Protocol" they have... > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791 > > The RFC 791 is one of Official Internet Protocol Standards: Internet > Standards --of which there are ones do not use terms "Internet Protocol" -- > for examples "Transmission Control Protocol", "User Datagram Protocol", " > Broadcasting Internet Datagrams"... > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards > > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > menulis: > >> Dear All, >> >> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture" to Internet >> protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message April 21st 2019): it >> looks "special" to mention "RFC 791: Internet Protocol" (J. Postel, >> September 1981) and its histories -- those obsolete and updates: which is >> about the name/title "Internet Protocol" they have.... >> >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791 >> >> Regard, >> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >> menulis: >> >>> Dear Hesham and All, >>> >>> >>> There is a need for correction for the earlier message: >>> >>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I missed >>> before-- was made to propose such an extension of "Architectural Principles >>> of the Internet" (1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) in >>> relation with the Internet in large scale... >>> >>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt >>> >>> It should be: >>> >>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I missed >>> before-- was made to propose such an extension of "Architectural Principles >>> of the Internet" (1996) as the first considered complexity (control) in >>> relation with the Internet in large scale... >>> >>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt >>> >>> >>> Regard, >>> Gintur Wiseno Putra >>> >>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> menulis: >>> >>>> Dear Hesham and All, >>>> >>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I missed >>>> before-- was made to propose such an extension of "Architectural Principles >>>> of the Internet" (1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) in >>>> relation with the Internet in large scale... >>>> >>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt >>>> >>>> >>>> Regard, >>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>> >>>> >>>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury < >>>> Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com> menulis: >>>> >>>>> I think you meant RFC1958 which is updated by RFC3439. >>>>> >>>>> Hesham >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *From:* Architecture-discuss [mailto:architecture-discuss-b >>>>> ounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>> *Sent:* Monday, April 22, 2019 6:41 AM >>>>> *To:* architecture-discuss@ietf.org; internetgovtech@iab.org; >>>>> nethistory@ietf.org >>>>> *Subject:* [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical >>>>> Work and Net History: A Speci >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dear All, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Of the question "What is the Internet Architecture?" mentioned in the >>>>> earlier message: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Brian. E. Carpenter's text "RFC 1985: Architectural Principles of the >>>>> Internet" mentioned about Internet protocols and their design: May this >>>>> links helpful to get arrived there at related archives ( as the text did >>>>> not use any online source but suppposedly paper ones as references)...: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search?name= >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> - https://www.rfc-editor.org/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Here are menus "Internet Standard", "Official Internet Protocol >>>>> Standards", and "advanced search". >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Regard, >>>>> >>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>> >>>>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>> menulis: >>>>> >>>>> Dear All, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Individuals, or collectifs of individuals, are in an age of the >>>>> Internet. It is such a presence may be approached and sensed by many ways >>>>> --even when one said that s/he had just eat a food which a receipt was >>>>> gotten by communicating by the Internet.. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Among others there are presences of "the Internet Architecture", >>>>> "Internet Governance and Technical Work" and "Net History" as they >>>>> represent interest-based mailing lists. How could one get arrived into >>>>> those matters (together) --such a programmatic readership/learning: as >>>>> sources and concepts have history and discources collectives/net... ? >>>>> Should we imagine about information sources by making such a readership >>>>> based on the linkage between the three...? Thus we may say about "The >>>>> Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical Works: a Net History" (to >>>>> say "A Net History in Terms of The Internet Architecture, Governance and >>>>> Technical Work)...? --there would be a discourse map on the special >>>>> readership which is about a co-presence of mailing lists...? --as one may >>>>> use search engines of each mailing list for related interests...? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> To make an engagement with the programme should we go with such >>>>> tentative journeys considering parts of the special readership...? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> For example: >>>>> >>>>> By considering the reasoning above: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> To the question on "What is the Internet Architecture?" we may refer >>>>> to (archival) sources >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> "RFC 1958: Architectural Principles of the Internet" >>>>> >>>>> (Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1958 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> (Note:) >>>>> >>>>> It was a snapshot record of the principles of the Internet Achitecture >>>>> intended for general guidance and general interest... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It was updated by RFC 3439... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Both the concept "Internet Architecture" and the document RFC 1958 >>>>> have history bringing readers to other relevant sources... They supposedly >>>>> also give suggestions to come to broader or other conceptual discourses on >>>>> "governance and technical work" >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Regard, >>>>> >>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>> >>>>> --0000000000001c1f9e0587416fe6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear All,

The websites www.datatracker.ietf.org and www.rfc-editor.org are histo= rians for the services of historical archives the provide. While a personal= historian may deserve to mention, especially on the "Internet Archite= cture":

D. Thaler documented aspects of Inter= net Protocol service model as they evolved over time .... Some guidence for= protocol designers an implementers were also suggested...

"RFC 6250: Evolution of IP Service Model" (IAB, May 2011= )

https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6250
<= /div>

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada = Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear All,

As Brian = E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture" to Internet pro= tocols and their designs (mentioned in my message April 21st 2019): it look= s "special" to mention "RFC 791: Internet Protocol" (J.= Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- those obsolete and updates: w= hich is about the name/title "Internet Protocol" they have...

=

The RFC 791 is one of Official Internet Protocol Stan= dards: Internet Standards --of which there are ones do not use terms "= Internet Protocol" -- for examples "Transmission Control Protocol= ", "User Datagram Protocol", " Broadcasting Internet Da= tagrams"...


<= /div>
Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada= Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear All,

As Brian E. Carpenter re= ferred the "Internet Architecture" to Internet protocols and thei= r designs (mentioned in my message April 21st 2019): it looks "special= " to mention "RFC 791: Internet Protocol" (J. Postel, Septem= ber 1981) and its histories -- those obsolete and updates: which is about t= he name/title "Internet Protocol" they have....
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019= , Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
= Dear Hesham and All,


There is a need for = correction for the earlier message:

The updat= e "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I missed before--= was made to propose such an extension of "Architectural Principles of= the Internet" (1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) in= relation with the Internet in large scale...


It should be:

The update "The Arch= itectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I missed before-- was made to pro= pose such an extension of "Architectural Principles of the Internet&qu= ot; (1996) as the first considered complexity (control) in relation with th= e Internet in large scale...



<= div>Regard,
Gintur Wiseno Putra

Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019= , Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
= Dear Hesham and All,

The update "The Architectural = Guidelines" (2002) --which I missed before-- was made to propose such = an extension of "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996)= as the latter considered complexity (control) in relation with the Interne= t in large scale...



Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra


Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Hes= ham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com> menulis:

I think you meant RFC1958 which is up= dated by RFC3439.

Hesham

=C2=A0

From: Architecture-discuss [mailto:<= a href=3D"mailto:architecture-discuss-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">a= rchitecture-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Guntur Wiseno Putra
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2019 6:41 AM
To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org; internetgovtech@iab.org; nethistory@ietf.org
Subject: [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical = Work and Net History: A Speci

=C2=A0

Dear All,

=C2=A0

Of the question "What is the Internet Architect= ure?" mentioned in the earlier message:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Brian. E. Carpenter's text "RFC 1985: Archi= tectural Principles of the Internet" mentioned about Internet protocol= s and their design: May this links helpful to get arrived there at related = archives ( as the text did not use any online source but suppposedly paper ones as references)...:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 Here are =C2=A0menus "Internet Standard&= quot;, "Official Internet Protocol Standards", and "advanced= search".

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regard,

Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:=

Dear All,

=C2=A0

Individuals, or collectifs of individuals, are in an= age of the Internet. It is such a presence may be approached and sensed by= many ways --even when one said that s/he had just eat a food which a recei= pt was gotten by communicating by the Internet..

=C2=A0

Among others there are presences of "the Intern= et Architecture", "Internet Governance and Technical Work" a= nd "Net History" as they represent interest-based mailing lists. = How could one get arrived into those matters (together) --such a programmatic readership/learning: as sources and concepts have history and= discources collectives/net... ? Should we imagine about information source= s by making such a readership based on the linkage between the three...? Th= us we may say about "The Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical Works: a Net History" (to say = "A Net History in Terms of The Internet Architecture, Governance and T= echnical Work)...? --there would be a discourse map on the special readersh= ip which is about a co-presence of mailing lists...? --as one may use search engines of each mailing list for related= interests...?

=C2=A0

To make an engagement with the programme should we g= o with such tentative journeys considering parts of the special readership.= ..?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

For example:=C2=A0

By considering the reasoning above:

=C2=A0

To the question on "What is the Internet Archit= ecture?" we may refer to (archival) sources

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

"RFC 1958: Architectural Principles of the Inte= rnet"=C2=A0

(Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996)

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

(Note:)

It was a snapshot record of the principles of the In= ternet Achitecture intended for general guidance and general interest...=

=C2=A0

It was updated by RFC 3439...

=C2=A0

Both the concept "Internet Architecture" a= nd the document RFC 1958 have history bringing readers to other relevant so= urces... They supposedly also give suggestions to come to broader or other = conceptual discourses on "governance and technical work"

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regard,

Guntur Wiseno Putra

--0000000000001c1f9e0587416fe6-- From nobody Wed Apr 24 07:00:00 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0AAB1203CC; Wed, 24 Apr 2019 06:59:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ldTCMfAqv4qu; Wed, 24 Apr 2019 06:59:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x32a.google.com (mail-ot1-x32a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6A7811203EC; Wed, 24 Apr 2019 06:59:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x32a.google.com with SMTP id s24so16172879otk.13; Wed, 24 Apr 2019 06:59:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=oAFK8XbRJOXL9V+felCi8Fe/nrGCyXDnsXN8SkM2kFA=; b=d5tZpUTyYMh6BTDgZVwqE7tsJeLRZruLza/tdSer9OeYHZz7xrgPg+TKQTm/pDWH3i 4FOz+8Nx/jA73WbQCh6ONJV8ktnMOvVvJWnSZ3kIakvtE8AtcymxLalY0YWgCxvFd+UI MTm4Xguj46JwwhxSH7Mtkce39rjF2v5552SKItEMkOCT0VnTs9VB2SHTMGMtc+UuDiuJ MAKJ6RzM5RUEbGsaY2n9gn/d9gza1nNoAYQNW8HGBbZukRDXGOxBplGzcK5uhJLY5yTi XWSenGoTRd8pw7CyeMc2G6VpL5NpOEIUcaSmVwuhBhwn9ShqqGD60i8DUo7OmTRbiO2E IWTw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=oAFK8XbRJOXL9V+felCi8Fe/nrGCyXDnsXN8SkM2kFA=; b=soeBjxr5jhM1cVclfBpgPDi8NJmrVnumuFC0Di9RoBY4C3QHCuUltz58nKtYYk35Jo Fts/R+5aavNFBenIFWMJDnoGB/pckbJBFYQVDOm97TPFL+OhX9krIEzg+quBLfj7PZDH n0VXT6xCUmuVStXPRbv3ZpmnkauJwSlkr2cII+4xYyQYtz8xo8shE3+rQKJxajtdXOSV BIol2IdoRCt3ghkNtjR4SW/R0rurA872CmErqMWKrh2wWEq4yTzzfbSNgLt1URzP2uRN 9pZUT0bpYqi0A2bsAC9nF8tFW2MKcoZhB8jGH7YTJht1rmrUtVLIpdtjPDrNMYuqfEWI FozA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUOlTeAJoNLklN4x5k1tBqJoxqUfFeIJD7zO88Ia1kDz0v1nL1m m6nFbbB/4B4bEMuND2c8DhJa3kJ303kCWFqloR4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzu9m9bk8yqLqPGdBjUb72ghtfzq9rG16g/5FzIEmz3BIbwyrnePnOuLUu9Q1MB6ofpEq6vC+EpWfrOVZSE3AA= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:4d0b:: with SMTP id n11mr18469331otf.98.1556114366706; Wed, 24 Apr 2019 06:59:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a9d:2065:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Wed, 24 Apr 2019 06:59:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 20:59:26 +0700 Message-ID: To: Hesham ElBakoury Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" , "internetgovtech@iab.org" , "nethistory@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000eb6e00587471cdb" Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 13:59:37 -0000 --0000000000000eb6e00587471cdb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear All, The reasoning of "The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work, and Net History" I said above "Individuals, or collective individuals, are in an age of the Internet...": as it concerns with "concept", "discourse" and "history" is supposedly inspired by my personal experiences of reading works on and by Michel Foucault, Gilles Deleuze and Felix Guattari. To those have interests with the "supposed inspiration" are pleased to visit these links below https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=Foucault&x=7&y=8 https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=Deleuze%2C+Guattari&x=0&y=0 Regard, Guntur Wiseno Putra Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra menulis: > Dear All, > > The websites www.datatracker.ietf.org and www.rfc-editor.org are > historians for the services of historical archives the provide. While a > personal historian may deserve to mention, especially on the "Internet > Architecture": > > D. Thaler documented aspects of Internet Protocol service model as they > evolved over time .... Some guidence for protocol designers an implementers > were also suggested... > > "RFC 6250: Evolution of IP Service Model" (IAB, May 2011) > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6250 > > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > menulis: > >> Dear All, >> >> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture" to Internet >> protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message April 21st 2019): it >> looks "special" to mention "RFC 791: Internet Protocol" (J. Postel, >> September 1981) and its histories -- those obsolete and updates: which is >> about the name/title "Internet Protocol" they have... >> >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791 >> >> The RFC 791 is one of Official Internet Protocol Standards: Internet >> Standards --of which there are ones do not use terms "Internet Protocol" -- >> for examples "Transmission Control Protocol", "User Datagram Protocol", " >> Broadcasting Internet Datagrams"... >> >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards >> >> Regard, >> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >> menulis: >> >>> Dear All, >>> >>> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture" to Internet >>> protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message April 21st 2019): it >>> looks "special" to mention "RFC 791: Internet Protocol" (J. Postel, >>> September 1981) and its histories -- those obsolete and updates: which is >>> about the name/title "Internet Protocol" they have.... >>> >>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791 >>> >>> Regard, >>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> >>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> menulis: >>> >>>> Dear Hesham and All, >>>> >>>> >>>> There is a need for correction for the earlier message: >>>> >>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I missed >>>> before-- was made to propose such an extension of "Architectural Principles >>>> of the Internet" (1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) in >>>> relation with the Internet in large scale... >>>> >>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt >>>> >>>> It should be: >>>> >>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I missed >>>> before-- was made to propose such an extension of "Architectural Principles >>>> of the Internet" (1996) as the first considered complexity (control) in >>>> relation with the Internet in large scale... >>>> >>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt >>>> >>>> >>>> Regard, >>>> Gintur Wiseno Putra >>>> >>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>> menulis: >>>> >>>>> Dear Hesham and All, >>>>> >>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I missed >>>>> before-- was made to propose such an extension of "Architectural Principles >>>>> of the Internet" (1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) in >>>>> relation with the Internet in large scale... >>>>> >>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Regard, >>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury < >>>>> Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com> menulis: >>>>> >>>>>> I think you meant RFC1958 which is updated by RFC3439. >>>>>> >>>>>> Hesham >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *From:* Architecture-discuss [mailto:architecture-discuss-b >>>>>> ounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, April 22, 2019 6:41 AM >>>>>> *To:* architecture-discuss@ietf.org; internetgovtech@iab.org; >>>>>> nethistory@ietf.org >>>>>> *Subject:* [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, >>>>>> Technical Work and Net History: A Speci >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Dear All, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Of the question "What is the Internet Architecture?" mentioned in the >>>>>> earlier message: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Brian. E. Carpenter's text "RFC 1985: Architectural Principles of the >>>>>> Internet" mentioned about Internet protocols and their design: May this >>>>>> links helpful to get arrived there at related archives ( as the text did >>>>>> not use any online source but suppposedly paper ones as references)...: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search?name= >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> - https://www.rfc-editor.org/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Here are menus "Internet Standard", "Official Internet Protocol >>>>>> Standards", and "advanced search". >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Regard, >>>>>> >>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>> >>>>>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>> menulis: >>>>>> >>>>>> Dear All, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Individuals, or collectifs of individuals, are in an age of the >>>>>> Internet. It is such a presence may be approached and sensed by many ways >>>>>> --even when one said that s/he had just eat a food which a receipt was >>>>>> gotten by communicating by the Internet.. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Among others there are presences of "the Internet Architecture", >>>>>> "Internet Governance and Technical Work" and "Net History" as they >>>>>> represent interest-based mailing lists. How could one get arrived into >>>>>> those matters (together) --such a programmatic readership/learning: as >>>>>> sources and concepts have history and discources collectives/net... ? >>>>>> Should we imagine about information sources by making such a readership >>>>>> based on the linkage between the three...? Thus we may say about "The >>>>>> Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical Works: a Net History" (to >>>>>> say "A Net History in Terms of The Internet Architecture, Governance and >>>>>> Technical Work)...? --there would be a discourse map on the special >>>>>> readership which is about a co-presence of mailing lists...? --as one may >>>>>> use search engines of each mailing list for related interests...? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> To make an engagement with the programme should we go with such >>>>>> tentative journeys considering parts of the special readership...? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> For example: >>>>>> >>>>>> By considering the reasoning above: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> To the question on "What is the Internet Architecture?" we may refer >>>>>> to (archival) sources >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> "RFC 1958: Architectural Principles of the Internet" >>>>>> >>>>>> (Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1958 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> (Note:) >>>>>> >>>>>> It was a snapshot record of the principles of the Internet >>>>>> Achitecture intended for general guidance and general interest... >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> It was updated by RFC 3439... >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Both the concept "Internet Architecture" and the document RFC 1958 >>>>>> have history bringing readers to other relevant sources... They supposedly >>>>>> also give suggestions to come to broader or other conceptual discourses on >>>>>> "governance and technical work" >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Regard, >>>>>> >>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>> >>>>>> --0000000000000eb6e00587471cdb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear All,

The reasoning of "The Internet, Architect= ure, Governance, Technical Work, and Net History" I said above "I= ndividuals, or collective individuals, are in an age of the Internet...&quo= t;: as it concerns with "concept", "discourse" and &quo= t;history" is supposedly inspired by my personal experiences of readin= g works on and by Michel Foucault, Gilles Deleuze and Felix Guattari.=C2=A0=

To those have interests with the "supposed i= nspiration" are pleased to visit these links below





Guntur Wi= seno Putra

Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> m= enulis:
Dear All,

The = websites www.= datatracker.ietf.org and www.rfc-editor.org are historians for the services of histo= rical archives the provide. While a personal historian may deserve to menti= on, especially on the "Internet Architecture":

D. Thaler documented aspects of Internet Protocol service model as t= hey evolved over time .... Some guidence for protocol designers an implemen= ters were also suggested...

"RFC 6250: Evolut= ion of IP Service Model" (IAB, May 2011)


Regard= ,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur W= iseno Putra <gsen= opu@gmail.com> menulis:
D= ear All,

As Brian E. Carpenter referred the &qu= ot;Internet Architecture" to Internet protocols and their designs (men= tioned in my message April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to ment= ion "RFC 791: Internet Protocol" (J. Postel, September 1981) and = its histories -- those obsolete and updates: which is about the name/title = "Internet Protocol" they have...


The = RFC 791 is one of Official Internet Protocol Standards: Internet Standards = --of which there are ones do not use terms "Internet Protocol" --= for examples "Transmission Control Protocol", "User Datagra= m Protocol", " Broadcasting Internet Datagrams"...


Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Gu= ntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear= All,

As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet = Architecture" to Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in my= message April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to mention "RF= C 791: Internet Protocol" (J. Postel, September 1981) and its historie= s -- those obsolete and updates: which is about the name/title "Intern= et Protocol" they have....


Regard,
The update "The Architectural Guidelines"= (2002) --which I missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of = "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the first co= nsidered complexity (control) in relation with the Internet in large scale.= ..



https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt


Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra=


Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@= huawei.com> menulis:

I think you meant RFC1958 which is up= dated by RFC3439.

Hesham

=C2=A0

From: Architecture-discuss [mailto:<= a href=3D"mailto:architecture-discuss-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">a= rchitecture-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Guntur Wiseno Putra
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2019 6:41 AM
To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org; internetgovtech@iab.org; nethistory@ietf.org
Subject: [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical = Work and Net History: A Speci

=C2=A0

Dear All,

=C2=A0

Of the question "What is the Internet Architect= ure?" mentioned in the earlier message:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Brian. E. Carpenter's text "RFC 1985: Archi= tectural Principles of the Internet" mentioned about Internet protocol= s and their design: May this links helpful to get arrived there at related = archives ( as the text did not use any online source but suppposedly paper ones as references)...:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 Here are =C2=A0menus "Internet Standard&= quot;, "Official Internet Protocol Standards", and "advanced= search".

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regard,

Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:=

Dear All,

=C2=A0

Individuals, or collectifs of individuals, are in an= age of the Internet. It is such a presence may be approached and sensed by= many ways --even when one said that s/he had just eat a food which a recei= pt was gotten by communicating by the Internet..

=C2=A0

Among others there are presences of "the Intern= et Architecture", "Internet Governance and Technical Work" a= nd "Net History" as they represent interest-based mailing lists. = How could one get arrived into those matters (together) --such a programmatic readership/learning: as sources and concepts have history and= discources collectives/net... ? Should we imagine about information source= s by making such a readership based on the linkage between the three...? Th= us we may say about "The Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical Works: a Net History" (to say = "A Net History in Terms of The Internet Architecture, Governance and T= echnical Work)...? --there would be a discourse map on the special readersh= ip which is about a co-presence of mailing lists...? --as one may use search engines of each mailing list for related= interests...?

=C2=A0

To make an engagement with the programme should we g= o with such tentative journeys considering parts of the special readership.= ..?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

For example:=C2=A0

By considering the reasoning above:

=C2=A0

To the question on "What is the Internet Archit= ecture?" we may refer to (archival) sources

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

"RFC 1958: Architectural Principles of the Inte= rnet"=C2=A0

(Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996)

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

(Note:)

It was a snapshot record of the principles of the In= ternet Achitecture intended for general guidance and general interest...=

=C2=A0

It was updated by RFC 3439...

=C2=A0

Both the concept "Internet Architecture" a= nd the document RFC 1958 have history bringing readers to other relevant so= urces... They supposedly also give suggestions to come to broader or other = conceptual discourses on "governance and technical work"

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regard,

Guntur Wiseno Putra

--0000000000000eb6e00587471cdb-- From nobody Wed Apr 24 10:12:44 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5D9E12010F; Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:12:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hBjUPMy5f3Rl; Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:12:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x32e.google.com (mail-ot1-x32e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1908A1200F9; Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:12:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x32e.google.com with SMTP id j10so16853579otq.0; Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:12:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=xtK7DaqVWXSv6vgcEYulCgy6uACHfMMUehteD4ftiEc=; b=ADLCf/41kM2tNVnNa0571MN+fX6bS64YVWNLQYuSP95CsDHRiRqw+A5n8EEiE1fFRp hX4iNcNehQDF5+CGfMqcSJOIEI6Y3BBYN7S0q1R8wD0bnCG0alkhHcZdBJ4UJ+5ldNbU dMtm55Na1F5CSjaO50eSEt63pkz4IBOyT+qkV3B/Cr6utlDdUG97yScMRBrJ0K5Rb1Kj myZNxM1+wZokcbmCJxeCFzHyTGdwKzefEgYgJpKiKWIEkesNicHQ80uz8K9GDhOrsUi4 s1MErGmmtp4Y7yXGf3shDwrPAKpBif3iKAGWLpNiFaWRHfjCmZoYm80lp3gu1ZK3Pgep QN4Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=xtK7DaqVWXSv6vgcEYulCgy6uACHfMMUehteD4ftiEc=; b=KoKSqBe5JVwy+ECd0UdioaXxhVaG/84tJ//iGwBu5Cm0kzy5X8BsvoCCXNUD0qKHg9 fpM+Um8SATDEWQqhHRFrekE6mIM/0HGwdqMh1KUltzeauiNhDDGKIAv+fwz42y48Enem /sDiffCpoPcDkGKrUsaQf9LJcn0HCHjkYcRiRf9BAsz2PaqJLXLCEpdl1j3hvTOP3C1C ZXsW6//UOK/yPW9aSUbjdlOFLsVE0BKCExtAPAZmVp4eGC9e7C3FuvMBCjXDkAETMuV1 cN597e20ykM4sBydPLdlyFkKdBigX6gC1mB9GMJwqbMKUeBQKh/+Csz52fpRpyxSmSiC Pxpg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVrm8U//9C9LUWjrJ3Gpyz+v4zT++DPGWIOlilPcf2XbWeZNLYZ jzegr2J4bW4JbS4Cb10b/zzeS3xD5ia4MhnU0K0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy4EQktoDpvH5tn4BfSNyOQVoFO9Mvh5tlcEUTNRiA7Qzw/sbAn67macrzlW0A/6Je5Wx9LtgQwe2f14W/lxPI= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:4d0b:: with SMTP id n11mr19135865otf.98.1556125958127; Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:12:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a9d:2065:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:12:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 00:12:37 +0700 Message-ID: To: Hesham ElBakoury Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" , "internetgovtech@iab.org" , "nethistory@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f5c5d8058749ce5a" Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 17:12:42 -0000 --000000000000f5c5d8058749ce5a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear All, D. Thaler in his "Evolution of the IP Model" (RFC 6250) referring IP service model to section 2.2. of RFC 0791, RFC 1958, and section 2.1 of RFC 4903 --while the document as a whole referring also to other RFCs. There are also other historians and futurologs ever analysed the Internet architecture examplified by RFC 3274 "The Rise of the Middle and the Future of End-to-End Argument: Reflections on the Evolution of the Internet Architecture" (Kempf, J. & R. Austen Eds., Network Working Group-IAB, 2004) This document examined the development of end-to-end principles as it had been applied by the Internet over years. https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3274 RFC 1827 "Toward The Future Internet Architecture" (Clark, D. et all., Network Working Group, 1991) This document represented an understanding that the Internet architecture as "the grand plan behind the TCP/IP protocol suite" envisioned its possible evolution as there had been increasing signs of strains on the fundemental architecture mostly stemming from the continued growth of the Internet. https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1287 Regard, Guntur Wiseno Putra Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra menulis: > Dear All, > > The reasoning of "The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work, > and Net History" I said above "Individuals, or collective individuals, are > in an age of the Internet...": as it concerns with "concept", "discourse" > and "history" is supposedly inspired by my personal experiences of reading > works on and by Michel Foucault, Gilles Deleuze and Felix Guattari. > > To those have interests with the "supposed inspiration" are pleased to > visit these links below > > > https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=Foucault&x=7&y=8 > > https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=Deleuze%2C+Guattari&x=0&y=0 > > > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra menulis: > >> Dear All, >> >> The websites www.datatracker.ietf.org and www.rfc-editor.org are >> historians for the services of historical archives the provide. While a >> personal historian may deserve to mention, especially on the "Internet >> Architecture": >> >> D. Thaler documented aspects of Internet Protocol service model as they >> evolved over time .... Some guidence for protocol designers an implementers >> were also suggested... >> >> "RFC 6250: Evolution of IP Service Model" (IAB, May 2011) >> >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6250 >> >> Regard, >> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >> menulis: >> >>> Dear All, >>> >>> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture" to Internet >>> protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message April 21st 2019): it >>> looks "special" to mention "RFC 791: Internet Protocol" (J. Postel, >>> September 1981) and its histories -- those obsolete and updates: which is >>> about the name/title "Internet Protocol" they have... >>> >>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791 >>> >>> The RFC 791 is one of Official Internet Protocol Standards: Internet >>> Standards --of which there are ones do not use terms "Internet Protocol" -- >>> for examples "Transmission Control Protocol", "User Datagram Protocol", " >>> Broadcasting Internet Datagrams"... >>> >>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards >>> >>> Regard, >>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> >>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> menulis: >>> >>>> Dear All, >>>> >>>> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture" to Internet >>>> protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message April 21st 2019): it >>>> looks "special" to mention "RFC 791: Internet Protocol" (J. Postel, >>>> September 1981) and its histories -- those obsolete and updates: which is >>>> about the name/title "Internet Protocol" they have.... >>>> >>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791 >>>> >>>> Regard, >>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>> >>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>> menulis: >>>> >>>>> Dear Hesham and All, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> There is a need for correction for the earlier message: >>>>> >>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I missed >>>>> before-- was made to propose such an extension of "Architectural Principles >>>>> of the Internet" (1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) in >>>>> relation with the Internet in large scale... >>>>> >>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt >>>>> >>>>> It should be: >>>>> >>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I missed >>>>> before-- was made to propose such an extension of "Architectural Principles >>>>> of the Internet" (1996) as the first considered complexity (control) in >>>>> relation with the Internet in large scale... >>>>> >>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Regard, >>>>> Gintur Wiseno Putra >>>>> >>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>> menulis: >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Hesham and All, >>>>>> >>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I missed >>>>>> before-- was made to propose such an extension of "Architectural Principles >>>>>> of the Internet" (1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) in >>>>>> relation with the Internet in large scale... >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Regard, >>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury < >>>>>> Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com> menulis: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I think you meant RFC1958 which is updated by RFC3439. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hesham >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *From:* Architecture-discuss [mailto:architecture-discuss-b >>>>>>> ounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, April 22, 2019 6:41 AM >>>>>>> *To:* architecture-discuss@ietf.org; internetgovtech@iab.org; >>>>>>> nethistory@ietf.org >>>>>>> *Subject:* [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, >>>>>>> Technical Work and Net History: A Speci >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear All, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Of the question "What is the Internet Architecture?" mentioned in >>>>>>> the earlier message: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brian. E. Carpenter's text "RFC 1985: Architectural Principles of >>>>>>> the Internet" mentioned about Internet protocols and their design: May this >>>>>>> links helpful to get arrived there at related archives ( as the text did >>>>>>> not use any online source but suppposedly paper ones as references)...: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search?name= >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - https://www.rfc-editor.org/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Here are menus "Internet Standard", "Official Internet Protocol >>>>>>> Standards", and "advanced search". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regard, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>>> menulis: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear All, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Individuals, or collectifs of individuals, are in an age of the >>>>>>> Internet. It is such a presence may be approached and sensed by many ways >>>>>>> --even when one said that s/he had just eat a food which a receipt was >>>>>>> gotten by communicating by the Internet.. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Among others there are presences of "the Internet Architecture", >>>>>>> "Internet Governance and Technical Work" and "Net History" as they >>>>>>> represent interest-based mailing lists. How could one get arrived into >>>>>>> those matters (together) --such a programmatic readership/learning: as >>>>>>> sources and concepts have history and discources collectives/net... ? >>>>>>> Should we imagine about information sources by making such a readership >>>>>>> based on the linkage between the three...? Thus we may say about "The >>>>>>> Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical Works: a Net History" (to >>>>>>> say "A Net History in Terms of The Internet Architecture, Governance and >>>>>>> Technical Work)...? --there would be a discourse map on the special >>>>>>> readership which is about a co-presence of mailing lists...? --as one may >>>>>>> use search engines of each mailing list for related interests...? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To make an engagement with the programme should we go with such >>>>>>> tentative journeys considering parts of the special readership...? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For example: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> By considering the reasoning above: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To the question on "What is the Internet Architecture?" we may refer >>>>>>> to (archival) sources >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "RFC 1958: Architectural Principles of the Internet" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> (Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1958 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> (Note:) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It was a snapshot record of the principles of the Internet >>>>>>> Achitecture intended for general guidance and general interest... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It was updated by RFC 3439... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Both the concept "Internet Architecture" and the document RFC 1958 >>>>>>> have history bringing readers to other relevant sources... They supposedly >>>>>>> also give suggestions to come to broader or other conceptual discourses on >>>>>>> "governance and technical work" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regard, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --000000000000f5c5d8058749ce5a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear All,

D. Thaler in his "Evolution of the IP Mod= el" (RFC 6250) referring IP service model to section 2.2. of RFC 0791,= RFC 1958, and section 2.1 of RFC 4903 --while the document as a whole refe= rring also to other RFCs.

There are also other his= torians and futurologs ever analysed the Internet architecture examplified = by

RFC 3274 "The Rise of the Middle and the F= uture of End-to-End Argument: Reflections on the Evolution of the Internet = Architecture" (Kempf, J. =C2=A0& R. Austen Eds., Network Working G= roup-IAB, 2004)

This document examined the develop= ment of end-to-end principles as it had been applied by the Internet over y= ears.


RFC 1827 "Toward The Future Internet Architecture" (Clark, = D. et all., Network Working Group, 1991)

This docu= ment represented an understanding that the Internet architecture as "t= he grand plan behind the TCP/IP protocol suite" envisioned its possibl= e evolution as there had been increasing signs of strains on the fundementa= l architecture mostly stemming from the continued growth of the Internet.


<= br>
Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Rabu, 24 Ap= ril 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear All,

The reasoning of "The Internet, A= rchitecture, Governance, Technical Work, and Net History" I said above= "Individuals, or collective individuals, are in an age of the Interne= t...": as it concerns with "concept", "discourse" = and "history" is supposedly inspired by my personal experiences o= f reading works on and by Michel Foucault, Gilles Deleuze and Felix Guattar= i.=C2=A0

To those have interests with the "su= pposed inspiration" are pleased to visit these links below
<= br>


https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=3DDeleuze%2= C+Guattari&x=3D0&y=3D0


<= div>Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, = Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
De= ar All,

The websites www.datatracker.ietf.org and www.rfc-editor.org are histori= ans for the services of historical archives the provide. While a personal h= istorian may deserve to mention, especially on the "Internet Architect= ure":

D. Thaler documented aspects of Interne= t Protocol service model as they evolved over time .... Some guidence for p= rotocol designers an implementers were also suggested...

"RFC 6250: Evolution of IP Service Model" (IAB, May 2011)<= /div>

https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6250

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Se= lasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear All,

As Brian E.= Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture" to Internet proto= cols and their designs (mentioned in my message April 21st 2019): it looks = "special" to mention "RFC 791: Internet Protocol" (J. P= ostel, September 1981) and its histories -- those obsolete and updates: whi= ch is about the name/title "Internet Protocol" they have...
=


The RFC 791 is one of Official Internet Protocol Standa= rds: Internet Standards --of which there are ones do not use terms "In= ternet Protocol" -- for examples "Transmission Control Protocol&q= uot;, "User Datagram Protocol", " Broadcasting Internet Data= grams"...


Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada S= elasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear All,

As Brian E. Carpenter refe= rred the "Internet Architecture" to Internet protocols and their = designs (mentioned in my message April 21st 2019): it looks "special&q= uot; to mention "RFC 791: Internet Protocol" (J. Postel, Septembe= r 1981) and its histories -- those obsolete and updates: which is about the= name/title "Internet Protocol" they have....
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, = Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
De= ar Hesham and All,


There is a need for co= rrection for the earlier message:

The update = "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I missed before-- w= as made to propose such an extension of "Architectural Principles of t= he Internet" (1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) in r= elation with the Internet in large scale...


<= div>It should be:

The update "The Archit= ectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I missed before-- was made to propo= se such an extension of "Architectural Principles of the Internet"= ; (1996) as the first considered complexity (control) in relation with the = Internet in large scale...



Regard,
Gintur Wiseno Putra

Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, = Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
De= ar Hesham and All,

The update "The Architectural Gu= idelines" (2002) --which I missed before-- was made to propose such an= extension of "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) a= s the latter considered complexity (control) in relation with the Internet = in large scale...



Regard,
=
Guntur Wiseno Putra


Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Hesha= m ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com> menulis:

I think you meant RFC1958 which is up= dated by RFC3439.

Hesham

=C2=A0

From: Architecture-discuss [mailto:<= a href=3D"mailto:architecture-discuss-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">a= rchitecture-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Guntur Wiseno Putra
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2019 6:41 AM
To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org; internetgovtech@iab.org; nethistory@ietf.org
Subject: [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical = Work and Net History: A Speci

=C2=A0

Dear All,

=C2=A0

Of the question "What is the Internet Architect= ure?" mentioned in the earlier message:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Brian. E. Carpenter's text "RFC 1985: Archi= tectural Principles of the Internet" mentioned about Internet protocol= s and their design: May this links helpful to get arrived there at related = archives ( as the text did not use any online source but suppposedly paper ones as references)...:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 Here are =C2=A0menus "Internet Standard&= quot;, "Official Internet Protocol Standards", and "advanced= search".

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regard,

Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:=

Dear All,

=C2=A0

Individuals, or collectifs of individuals, are in an= age of the Internet. It is such a presence may be approached and sensed by= many ways --even when one said that s/he had just eat a food which a recei= pt was gotten by communicating by the Internet..

=C2=A0

Among others there are presences of "the Intern= et Architecture", "Internet Governance and Technical Work" a= nd "Net History" as they represent interest-based mailing lists. = How could one get arrived into those matters (together) --such a programmatic readership/learning: as sources and concepts have history and= discources collectives/net... ? Should we imagine about information source= s by making such a readership based on the linkage between the three...? Th= us we may say about "The Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical Works: a Net History" (to say = "A Net History in Terms of The Internet Architecture, Governance and T= echnical Work)...? --there would be a discourse map on the special readersh= ip which is about a co-presence of mailing lists...? --as one may use search engines of each mailing list for related= interests...?

=C2=A0

To make an engagement with the programme should we g= o with such tentative journeys considering parts of the special readership.= ..?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

For example:=C2=A0

By considering the reasoning above:

=C2=A0

To the question on "What is the Internet Archit= ecture?" we may refer to (archival) sources

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

"RFC 1958: Architectural Principles of the Inte= rnet"=C2=A0

(Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996)

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

(Note:)

It was a snapshot record of the principles of the In= ternet Achitecture intended for general guidance and general interest...=

=C2=A0

It was updated by RFC 3439...

=C2=A0

Both the concept "Internet Architecture" a= nd the document RFC 1958 have history bringing readers to other relevant so= urces... They supposedly also give suggestions to come to broader or other = conceptual discourses on "governance and technical work"

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regard,

Guntur Wiseno Putra

--000000000000f5c5d8058749ce5a-- From nobody Wed Apr 24 18:16:41 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DECB4120099; Wed, 24 Apr 2019 18:16:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GmL_ixVVjZOv; Wed, 24 Apr 2019 18:16:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x332.google.com (mail-ot1-x332.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::332]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76A9A12001E; Wed, 24 Apr 2019 18:16:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x332.google.com with SMTP id s24so17945801otk.13; Wed, 24 Apr 2019 18:16:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ne31T8IOI+a5BUwh1ekCMjrL/0zMLTLCO7gDOHOfIDQ=; b=AkVO0DsUwMWCVXRzJ9pdJoBLgVtZYu3NC1tzueq03724RGHHJK56ldZBElsPRRI8nb 2c43dtQJdpoJxNHyFsA6KfA4dKVppSbpFjCIDlvCnEde+nTh6I3NNYnra43v5EsakjaN XcC97swLz51Riq6PvzKarblAZDQyi3YF110Q7c1xcVjzxle8r+jcOFkChfrEdsPidQS7 QaPdhTG3Rn9aLM4VmnZ4vQu8mi8oPWye/7I2PYxBA3pj74qXZTzns1kwS6WhBrqkEvNd tWnvSKMU2qm+ayHtmPSdLJoj3zogBCfkKvy/Ht+OM39+SV+9tbyAbp78uKXdQjzB5/P8 O8AQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ne31T8IOI+a5BUwh1ekCMjrL/0zMLTLCO7gDOHOfIDQ=; b=tX4XQqAhfHc6wgQoujOvz8V01xoRK/VkJfsBZxY940Oc3IjjbOKxGO7C9FmqQAY1FJ nZ2TuMC7o1Tll8Ykf7PlskgvlB7EMIDWN9Htt13x1XABeYQZPIJxpLOilo1KKYq0vGGk OQjuHGTaIejhbA2Kr02QJwk+oI2nuJfx2TqxrMC7e1UWs3agMh3+9EP1sjjFCWDHx+Q8 LdFXS+pNGJl/n0LPuv/xZkqCcsWxPtAAJWVWGr2I/IwN9tN6FRlxbn5574TKImiOxNKW QZQqQxoN7oAMlCAkYM2X3ZniKVaA4ZodWfY+lWp2wA1jnsP7RGA4JXAIs5mLc/1uWwUF zmgA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVT83T35uvRUX86zlUUgqTM+vxsl/jx2cJAe5WQ2mNLeOftIS71 nm4AgQUIMsltjoiLDutvn7iiycmi+quaSoDqN44= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxoXCyqNOOCBr8CotvXYkZLqA5nbv8hpp1qIaPsvGW9OZJeTjtTWQIcKlFMby1+lloZcEoDt1Y+SljfrO0KCd4= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:66d7:: with SMTP id t23mr2727816otm.364.1556154983742; Wed, 24 Apr 2019 18:16:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a9d:2065:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Wed, 24 Apr 2019 18:16:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 08:16:23 +0700 Message-ID: To: Hesham ElBakoury Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" , "internetgovtech@iab.org" , "nethistory@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000057ff4058750910b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 01:16:29 -0000 --000000000000057ff4058750910b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear All, The Internet architecture --the Internet protocols and their designs-- are in situations among which is about its possible inplementations enabled by such a governance(s). That is supposedly a matter of the Internet Governance suitable with what was ever officially published by the Internet Architecture Board related with the release of internetgovtech@iab.org mailing list (2013) "to discuss topics regarding the intersection of Internet governance and IETF technical work. In particular, this list will focus on issues relating to Internet governance and regulation, including the 2014 ITU Plenipotentiary Conference, and their potential to impact the future of the Internet architecture". https://iab.org/activities/internet-governance/ Regard, Guntur Wiseno Putra Pada Kamis, 25 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra menulis: > Dear All, > > D. Thaler in his "Evolution of the IP Model" (RFC 6250) referring IP > service model to section 2.2. of RFC 0791, RFC 1958, and section 2.1 of RFC > 4903 --while the document as a whole referring also to other RFCs. > > There are also other historians and futurologs ever analysed the Internet > architecture examplified by > > RFC 3274 "The Rise of the Middle and the Future of End-to-End Argument: > Reflections on the Evolution of the Internet Architecture" (Kempf, J. & R. > Austen Eds., Network Working Group-IAB, 2004) > > This document examined the development of end-to-end principles as it had > been applied by the Internet over years. > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3274 > > RFC 1827 "Toward The Future Internet Architecture" (Clark, D. et all., > Network Working Group, 1991) > > This document represented an understanding that the Internet architecture > as "the grand plan behind the TCP/IP protocol suite" envisioned its > possible evolution as there had been increasing signs of strains on the > fundemental architecture mostly stemming from the continued growth of the > Internet. > > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1287 > > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra menulis: > >> Dear All, >> >> The reasoning of "The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work, >> and Net History" I said above "Individuals, or collective individuals, are >> in an age of the Internet...": as it concerns with "concept", "discourse" >> and "history" is supposedly inspired by my personal experiences of reading >> works on and by Michel Foucault, Gilles Deleuze and Felix Guattari. >> >> To those have interests with the "supposed inspiration" are pleased to >> visit these links below >> >> >> https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=Foucault&x=7&y=8 >> >> https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=Deleuze%2C+Guattari&x=0&y=0 >> >> >> Regard, >> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >> Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >> menulis: >> >>> Dear All, >>> >>> The websites www.datatracker.ietf.org and www.rfc-editor.org are >>> historians for the services of historical archives the provide. While a >>> personal historian may deserve to mention, especially on the "Internet >>> Architecture": >>> >>> D. Thaler documented aspects of Internet Protocol service model as they >>> evolved over time .... Some guidence for protocol designers an implementers >>> were also suggested... >>> >>> "RFC 6250: Evolution of IP Service Model" (IAB, May 2011) >>> >>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6250 >>> >>> Regard, >>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> >>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> menulis: >>> >>>> Dear All, >>>> >>>> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture" to Internet >>>> protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message April 21st 2019): it >>>> looks "special" to mention "RFC 791: Internet Protocol" (J. Postel, >>>> September 1981) and its histories -- those obsolete and updates: which is >>>> about the name/title "Internet Protocol" they have... >>>> >>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791 >>>> >>>> The RFC 791 is one of Official Internet Protocol Standards: Internet >>>> Standards --of which there are ones do not use terms "Internet Protocol" -- >>>> for examples "Transmission Control Protocol", "User Datagram Protocol", " >>>> Broadcasting Internet Datagrams"... >>>> >>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards >>>> >>>> Regard, >>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>> >>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>> menulis: >>>> >>>>> Dear All, >>>>> >>>>> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture" to Internet >>>>> protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message April 21st 2019): it >>>>> looks "special" to mention "RFC 791: Internet Protocol" (J. Postel, >>>>> September 1981) and its histories -- those obsolete and updates: which is >>>>> about the name/title "Internet Protocol" they have.... >>>>> >>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791 >>>>> >>>>> Regard, >>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>> >>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>> menulis: >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Hesham and All, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> There is a need for correction for the earlier message: >>>>>> >>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I missed >>>>>> before-- was made to propose such an extension of "Architectural Principles >>>>>> of the Internet" (1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) in >>>>>> relation with the Internet in large scale... >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt >>>>>> >>>>>> It should be: >>>>>> >>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I missed >>>>>> before-- was made to propose such an extension of "Architectural Principles >>>>>> of the Internet" (1996) as the first considered complexity (control) in >>>>>> relation with the Internet in large scale... >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Regard, >>>>>> Gintur Wiseno Putra >>>>>> >>>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>> menulis: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Hesham and All, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I missed >>>>>>> before-- was made to propose such an extension of "Architectural Principles >>>>>>> of the Internet" (1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) in >>>>>>> relation with the Internet in large scale... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regard, >>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury < >>>>>>> Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com> menulis: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think you meant RFC1958 which is updated by RFC3439. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hesham >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *From:* Architecture-discuss [mailto:architecture-discuss-b >>>>>>>> ounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, April 22, 2019 6:41 AM >>>>>>>> *To:* architecture-discuss@ietf.org; internetgovtech@iab.org; >>>>>>>> nethistory@ietf.org >>>>>>>> *Subject:* [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, >>>>>>>> Technical Work and Net History: A Speci >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear All, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Of the question "What is the Internet Architecture?" mentioned in >>>>>>>> the earlier message: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Brian. E. Carpenter's text "RFC 1985: Architectural Principles of >>>>>>>> the Internet" mentioned about Internet protocols and their design: May this >>>>>>>> links helpful to get arrived there at related archives ( as the text did >>>>>>>> not use any online source but suppposedly paper ones as references)...: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search?name= >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> - https://www.rfc-editor.org/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Here are menus "Internet Standard", "Official Internet Protocol >>>>>>>> Standards", and "advanced search". >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regard, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>>>> menulis: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear All, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Individuals, or collectifs of individuals, are in an age of the >>>>>>>> Internet. It is such a presence may be approached and sensed by many ways >>>>>>>> --even when one said that s/he had just eat a food which a receipt was >>>>>>>> gotten by communicating by the Internet.. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Among others there are presences of "the Internet Architecture", >>>>>>>> "Internet Governance and Technical Work" and "Net History" as they >>>>>>>> represent interest-based mailing lists. How could one get arrived into >>>>>>>> those matters (together) --such a programmatic readership/learning: as >>>>>>>> sources and concepts have history and discources collectives/net... ? >>>>>>>> Should we imagine about information sources by making such a readership >>>>>>>> based on the linkage between the three...? Thus we may say about "The >>>>>>>> Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical Works: a Net History" (to >>>>>>>> say "A Net History in Terms of The Internet Architecture, Governance and >>>>>>>> Technical Work)...? --there would be a discourse map on the special >>>>>>>> readership which is about a co-presence of mailing lists...? --as one may >>>>>>>> use search engines of each mailing list for related interests...? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To make an engagement with the programme should we go with such >>>>>>>> tentative journeys considering parts of the special readership...? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> For example: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> By considering the reasoning above: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To the question on "What is the Internet Architecture?" we may >>>>>>>> refer to (archival) sources >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "RFC 1958: Architectural Principles of the Internet" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> (Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1958 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> (Note:) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It was a snapshot record of the principles of the Internet >>>>>>>> Achitecture intended for general guidance and general interest... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It was updated by RFC 3439... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Both the concept "Internet Architecture" and the document RFC 1958 >>>>>>>> have history bringing readers to other relevant sources... They supposedly >>>>>>>> also give suggestions to come to broader or other conceptual discourses on >>>>>>>> "governance and technical work" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regard, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --000000000000057ff4058750910b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear All,

The Internet architecture --the Internet proto= cols and their designs-- are in situations among which is about its possibl= e inplementations enabled by such a governance(s). That is supposedly a mat= ter of the Internet Governance suitable with what was ever officially publi= shed by the Internet Architecture Board related with the release of internetgovtech@iab.org mailing lis= t (2013)

"= to discuss topics regarding the intersection of Internet governance and IET= F technical work. In particular, this list will focus on issues relating to= Internet governance and regulation, including the 2014 ITU Plenipotentiary= Conference, and their potential to impact the future of the Internet archi= tecture".=C2=A0


Regard,
Guntur Wiseno= Putra

Pada Kamis, 25 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear All,

D. Thaler in his "Ev= olution of the IP Model" (RFC 6250) referring IP service model to sect= ion 2.2. of RFC 0791, RFC 1958, and section 2.1 of RFC 4903 --while the doc= ument as a whole referring also to other RFCs.

The= re are also other historians and futurologs ever analysed the Internet arch= itecture examplified by

RFC 3274 "The Rise of= the Middle and the Future of End-to-End Argument: Reflections on the Evolu= tion of the Internet Architecture" (Kempf, J. =C2=A0& R. Austen Ed= s., Network Working Group-IAB, 2004)

This document= examined the development of end-to-end principles as it had been applied b= y the Internet over years.


RFC 1827 "Toward The= Future Internet Architecture" (Clark, D. et all., Network Working Gro= up, 1991)

This document represented an understandi= ng that the Internet architecture as "the grand plan behind the TCP/IP= protocol suite" envisioned its possible evolution as there had been i= ncreasing signs of strains on the fundemental architecture mostly stemming = from the continued growth of the Internet.



Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019= , Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
= Dear All,

The reasoning of "The Internet, Architect= ure, Governance, Technical Work, and Net History" I said above "I= ndividuals, or collective individuals, are in an age of the Internet...&quo= t;: as it concerns with "concept", "discourse" and &quo= t;history" is supposedly inspired by my personal experiences of readin= g works on and by Michel Foucault, Gilles Deleuze and Felix Guattari.=C2=A0=

To those have interests with the "supposed i= nspiration" are pleased to visit these links below





Rega= rd,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur W= iseno Putra <gsen= opu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear All= ,

The websites www.datatracker.ietf.org and www.rfc-editor.org are historians fo= r the services of historical archives the provide. While a personal histori= an may deserve to mention, especially on the "Internet Architecture&qu= ot;:

D. Thaler documented aspects of Internet Prot= ocol service model as they evolved over time .... Some guidence for protoco= l designers an implementers were also suggested...

"RFC 6250: Evolution of IP Service Model" (IAB, May 2011)
<= div>

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Selasa, = 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear All,

As Brian E. Carp= enter referred the "Internet Architecture" to Internet protocols = and their designs (mentioned in my message April 21st 2019): it looks "= ;special" to mention "RFC 791: Internet Protocol" (J. Postel= , September 1981) and its histories -- those obsolete and updates: which is= about the name/title "Internet Protocol" they have...

=
The RFC 791 is one of Official Internet Protocol Standards:= Internet Standards --of which there are ones do not use terms "Intern= et Protocol" -- for examples "Transmission Control Protocol"= , "User Datagram Protocol", " Broadcasting Internet Datagram= s"...


=
Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Sela= sa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear All,

As Brian E. Carpenter referre= d the "Internet Architecture" to Internet protocols and their des= igns (mentioned in my message April 21st 2019): it looks "special"= ; to mention "RFC 791: Internet Protocol" (J. Postel, September 1= 981) and its histories -- those obsolete and updates: which is about the na= me/title "Internet Protocol" they have....

htt= ps://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791

R= egard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Gun= tur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear = Hesham and All,


There is a need for corre= ction for the earlier message:

The update &qu= ot;The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I missed before-- was = made to propose such an extension of "Architectural Principles of the = Internet" (1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) in rela= tion with the Internet in large scale...


It should be:

The update "The Archite= ctural Guidelines" (2002) --which I missed before-- was made to propos= e such an extension of "Architectural Principles of the Internet"= (1996) as the first considered complexity (control) in relation with the I= nternet in large scale...



Regard,
Gintur Wiseno Putra

Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, G= untur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dea= r Hesham and All,

The update "The Architectural Gui= delines" (2002) --which I missed before-- was made to propose such an = extension of "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as= the latter considered complexity (control) in relation with the Internet i= n large scale...



Regard,
<= div>Guntur Wiseno Putra


Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Hesham= ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com> menulis:

I think you meant RFC1958 which is up= dated by RFC3439.

Hesham

=C2=A0

From: Architecture-discuss [mailto:<= a href=3D"mailto:architecture-discuss-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">a= rchitecture-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Guntur Wiseno Putra
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2019 6:41 AM
To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org; internetgovtech@iab.org; nethistory@ietf.org
Subject: [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical = Work and Net History: A Speci

=C2=A0

Dear All,

=C2=A0

Of the question "What is the Internet Architect= ure?" mentioned in the earlier message:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Brian. E. Carpenter's text "RFC 1985: Archi= tectural Principles of the Internet" mentioned about Internet protocol= s and their design: May this links helpful to get arrived there at related = archives ( as the text did not use any online source but suppposedly paper ones as references)...:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 Here are =C2=A0menus "Internet Standard&= quot;, "Official Internet Protocol Standards", and "advanced= search".

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regard,

Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:=

Dear All,

=C2=A0

Individuals, or collectifs of individuals, are in an= age of the Internet. It is such a presence may be approached and sensed by= many ways --even when one said that s/he had just eat a food which a recei= pt was gotten by communicating by the Internet..

=C2=A0

Among others there are presences of "the Intern= et Architecture", "Internet Governance and Technical Work" a= nd "Net History" as they represent interest-based mailing lists. = How could one get arrived into those matters (together) --such a programmatic readership/learning: as sources and concepts have history and= discources collectives/net... ? Should we imagine about information source= s by making such a readership based on the linkage between the three...? Th= us we may say about "The Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical Works: a Net History" (to say = "A Net History in Terms of The Internet Architecture, Governance and T= echnical Work)...? --there would be a discourse map on the special readersh= ip which is about a co-presence of mailing lists...? --as one may use search engines of each mailing list for related= interests...?

=C2=A0

To make an engagement with the programme should we g= o with such tentative journeys considering parts of the special readership.= ..?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

For example:=C2=A0

By considering the reasoning above:

=C2=A0

To the question on "What is the Internet Archit= ecture?" we may refer to (archival) sources

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

"RFC 1958: Architectural Principles of the Inte= rnet"=C2=A0

(Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996)

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

(Note:)

It was a snapshot record of the principles of the In= ternet Achitecture intended for general guidance and general interest...=

=C2=A0

It was updated by RFC 3439...

=C2=A0

Both the concept "Internet Architecture" a= nd the document RFC 1958 have history bringing readers to other relevant so= urces... They supposedly also give suggestions to come to broader or other = conceptual discourses on "governance and technical work"

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regard,

Guntur Wiseno Putra

--000000000000057ff4058750910b-- From nobody Thu Apr 25 00:36:36 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAA2A1201C7; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 00:36:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mBV_wLA1_flM; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 00:36:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5834A120320; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 00:36:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1hJYvO-000IS1-MG; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 03:36:06 -0400 Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 03:35:59 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Guntur Wiseno Putra cc: Hesham ElBakoury , internetgovtech@iab.org, architecture-discuss@ietf.org, nethistory@ietf.org Message-ID: <754E03CE4D0735B550B88448@PSB> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] [Internetgovtech] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 07:36:27 -0000 Guntur, I've tried to following your multiple postings, but am getting more and more confused. Yes, there are some broad principles that can be considered together to constitute an "Internet architecture". Once one gets past extremely broad principles and down to details, I doubt that there is strong consensus in the community about many of the details of that architecture: there are other documents with different theories and some people would claim that some of the things that are said in some of the documents you have cited have not stood the test of time. Some of those principles interact with "Internet governance"; many, including questions about who should be in charge of various resources once one determines that someone, or some combination of actors, actually need to be, do not. The mailing lists you are using are appropriate for discussions of those issues although I think the case for cross-posting to internetgovtech and architecture-discuss, much less the nethistory list, has yet to be made. But what I don't understand --and what is confusing me more with each posting from you-- is why you are posting these notes and what you are trying to accomplish. Almost by definition, the readers of these lists know they exist and are out there. Most such readers know, or knew once, what the lists are supposed to be for. But almost everything I've read from you seems to be an explanation of the existence of an Internet architecture and/ or an Internet governance topic together with the existence and availability of the lists. Do you want something? Do you intend to try to explain something to us that we don't know already? If so, is that explanation likely to be actionable by the IETF or IAB and, if so, how. And, of course, what is it? thanks, john --On Thursday, April 25, 2019 08:16 +0700 Guntur Wiseno Putra wrote: > Dear All, > > The Internet architecture --the Internet protocols and their > designs-- are in situations among which is about its possible > inplementations enabled by such a governance(s). That is > supposedly a matter of the Internet Governance suitable with > what was ever officially published by the Internet > Architecture Board related with the release of > internetgovtech@iab.org mailing list (2013) > > "to discuss topics regarding the intersection of Internet > governance and IETF technical work. In particular, this list > will focus on issues relating to Internet governance and > regulation, including the 2014 ITU Plenipotentiary Conference, > and their potential to impact the future of the Internet > architecture". > > https://iab.org/activities/internet-governance/ > > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > Pada Kamis, 25 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > menulis: > >> Dear All, >> >> D. Thaler in his "Evolution of the IP Model" (RFC 6250) >> referring IP service model to section 2.2. of RFC 0791, RFC >> 1958, and section 2.1 of RFC 4903 --while the document as a >> whole referring also to other RFCs. >> >> There are also other historians and futurologs ever analysed >> the Internet architecture examplified by >> >> RFC 3274 "The Rise of the Middle and the Future of End-to-End >> Argument: Reflections on the Evolution of the Internet >> Architecture" (Kempf, J. & R. Austen Eds., Network Working >> Group-IAB, 2004) >> >> This document examined the development of end-to-end >> principles as it had been applied by the Internet over years. >> >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3274 >> >> RFC 1827 "Toward The Future Internet Architecture" (Clark, D. >> et all., Network Working Group, 1991) >> >> This document represented an understanding that the Internet >> architecture as "the grand plan behind the TCP/IP protocol >> suite" envisioned its possible evolution as there had been >> increasing signs of strains on the fundemental architecture >> mostly stemming from the continued growth of the Internet. >> >> >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1287 >> >> Regard, >> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >> Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >> menulis: >> >>> Dear All, >>> >>> The reasoning of "The Internet, Architecture, Governance, >>> Technical Work, and Net History" I said above "Individuals, >>> or collective individuals, are in an age of the >>> Internet...": as it concerns with "concept", "discourse" and >>> "history" is supposedly inspired by my personal experiences >>> of reading works on and by Michel Foucault, Gilles Deleuze >>> and Felix Guattari. >>> >>> To those have interests with the "supposed inspiration" are >>> pleased to visit these links below >>> >>> >>> https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=Foucault&x=7&y=8 >>> >>> https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=Deleuze%2C+Guattari&x=0&y=0 >>> >>> >>> Regard, >>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> >>> Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> menulis: >>> >>>> Dear All, >>>> >>>> The websites www.datatracker.ietf.org and >>>> www.rfc-editor.org are historians for the services of >>>> historical archives the provide. While a personal historian >>>> may deserve to mention, especially on the "Internet >>>> Architecture": >>>> >>>> D. Thaler documented aspects of Internet Protocol service >>>> model as they evolved over time .... Some guidence for >>>> protocol designers an implementers were also suggested... >>>> >>>> "RFC 6250: Evolution of IP Service Model" (IAB, May 2011) >>>> >>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6250 >>>> >>>> Regard, >>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>> >>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>> menulis: >>>> >>>>> Dear All, >>>>> >>>>> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture" >>>>> to Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in my >>>>> message April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to mention >>>>> "RFC 791: Internet Protocol" (J. Postel, September 1981) >>>>> and its histories -- those obsolete and updates: which is >>>>> about the name/title "Internet Protocol" they have... >>>>> >>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791 >>>>> >>>>> The RFC 791 is one of Official Internet Protocol >>>>> Standards: Internet Standards --of which there are ones do >>>>> not use terms "Internet Protocol" -- for examples >>>>> "Transmission Control Protocol", "User Datagram Protocol", >>>>> " Broadcasting Internet Datagrams"... >>>>> >>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards >>>>> >>>>> Regard, >>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>> >>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>> menulis: >>>>> >>>>>> Dear All, >>>>>> >>>>>> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet >>>>>> Architecture" to Internet protocols and their designs >>>>>> (mentioned in my message April 21st 2019): it looks >>>>>> "special" to mention "RFC 791: Internet Protocol" (J. >>>>>> Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- those >>>>>> obsolete and updates: which is about the name/title >>>>>> "Internet Protocol" they have.... >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791 >>>>>> >>>>>> Regard, >>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>> >>>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>> menulis: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Hesham and All, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There is a need for correction for the earlier message: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which >>>>>>> I missed before-- was made to propose such an extension >>>>>>> of "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as >>>>>>> the latter considered complexity (control) in relation >>>>>>> with the Internet in large scale... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It should be: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which >>>>>>> I missed before-- was made to propose such an extension >>>>>>> of "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as >>>>>>> the first considered complexity (control) in relation >>>>>>> with the Internet in large scale... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regard, >>>>>>> Gintur Wiseno Putra >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>>> menulis: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear Hesham and All, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) >>>>>>>> --which I missed before-- was made to propose such an >>>>>>>> extension of "Architectural Principles of the Internet" >>>>>>>> (1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) in >>>>>>>> relation with the Internet in large scale... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regard, >>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury < >>>>>>>> Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com> menulis: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think you meant RFC1958 which is updated by RFC3439. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hesham >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *From:* Architecture-discuss >>>>>>>>> [mailto:architecture-discuss-b ounces@ietf.org] *On >>>>>>>>> Behalf Of *Guntur Wiseno Putra *Sent:* Monday, April >>>>>>>>> 22, 2019 6:41 AM >>>>>>>>> *To:* architecture-discuss@ietf.org; >>>>>>>>> internetgovtech@iab.org; nethistory@ietf.org >>>>>>>>> *Subject:* [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, >>>>>>>>> Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dear All, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Of the question "What is the Internet Architecture?" >>>>>>>>> mentioned in the earlier message: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Brian. E. Carpenter's text "RFC 1985: Architectural >>>>>>>>> Principles of the Internet" mentioned about Internet >>>>>>>>> protocols and their design: May this links helpful to >>>>>>>>> get arrived there at related archives ( as the text did >>>>>>>>> not use any online source but suppposedly paper ones >>>>>>>>> as references)...: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search?name= >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> - https://www.rfc-editor.org/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Here are menus "Internet Standard", "Official >>>>>>>>> Internet Protocol Standards", and "advanced search". >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Regard, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>>>>> menulis: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dear All, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Individuals, or collectifs of individuals, are in an >>>>>>>>> age of the Internet. It is such a presence may be >>>>>>>>> approached and sensed by many ways --even when one >>>>>>>>> said that s/he had just eat a food which a receipt was >>>>>>>>> gotten by communicating by the Internet.. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Among others there are presences of "the Internet >>>>>>>>> Architecture", "Internet Governance and Technical >>>>>>>>> Work" and "Net History" as they represent >>>>>>>>> interest-based mailing lists. How could one get >>>>>>>>> arrived into those matters (together) --such a >>>>>>>>> programmatic readership/learning: as sources and >>>>>>>>> concepts have history and discources >>>>>>>>> collectives/net... ? Should we imagine about >>>>>>>>> information sources by making such a readership based >>>>>>>>> on the linkage between the three...? Thus we may say >>>>>>>>> about "The Internet Architecture, Governance and >>>>>>>>> Technical Works: a Net History" (to say "A Net History >>>>>>>>> in Terms of The Internet Architecture, Governance and >>>>>>>>> Technical Work)...? --there would be a discourse map >>>>>>>>> on the special readership which is about a co-presence >>>>>>>>> of mailing lists...? --as one may use search engines >>>>>>>>> of each mailing list for related interests...? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To make an engagement with the programme should we go >>>>>>>>> with such tentative journeys considering parts of the >>>>>>>>> special readership...? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> For example: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> By considering the reasoning above: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To the question on "What is the Internet >>>>>>>>> Architecture?" we may refer to (archival) sources >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "RFC 1958: Architectural Principles of the Internet" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> (Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1958 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> (Note:) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It was a snapshot record of the principles of the >>>>>>>>> Internet Achitecture intended for general guidance and >>>>>>>>> general interest... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It was updated by RFC 3439... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Both the concept "Internet Architecture" and the >>>>>>>>> document RFC 1958 have history bringing readers to >>>>>>>>> other relevant sources... They supposedly also give >>>>>>>>> suggestions to come to broader or other conceptual >>>>>>>>> discourses on "governance and technical work" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Regard, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> From nobody Thu Apr 25 01:40:46 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 934B31200E5; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 01:40:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PBUkhv05Kxgo; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 01:40:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 06D061200D7; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 01:40:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id DB0036C0290C92014089; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 09:40:34 +0100 (IST) Received: from SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.40) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 09:40:34 +0100 Received: from SJCEML521-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.117]) by SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.148]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 01:40:29 -0700 From: Hesham ElBakoury To: John C Klensin , Guntur Wiseno Putra CC: "internetgovtech@iab.org" , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" , "nethistory@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Internetgovtech] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci Thread-Index: AQHU+Ye2wYLbUUwXqE+qKPYXYz1ilqZJkymAgACNQgCAAAZSgIABNeOAgABxhACAADX5gIAAhyqAgABqD4D//5yZsA== Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 08:40:28 +0000 Message-ID: References: <754E03CE4D0735B550B88448@PSB> In-Reply-To: <754E03CE4D0735B550B88448@PSB> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.212.245.140] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] [Internetgovtech] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 08:40:40 -0000 I actually have the same question ... -----Original Message----- From: John C Klensin [mailto:john-ietf@jck.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2019 12:36 AM To: Guntur Wiseno Putra Cc: Hesham ElBakoury ; internetgovtech@iab.org= ; architecture-discuss@ietf.org; nethistory@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Internetgovtech] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Tech= nical Work and Net History: A Speci Guntur, I've tried to following your multiple postings, but am getting more and mor= e confused. Yes, there are some broad principles that can be considered to= gether to constitute an "Internet architecture". Once one gets past extrem= ely broad principles and down to details, I doubt that there is strong cons= ensus in the community about many of the details of that architecture: there are other documents with different theories and some people would cla= im that some of the things that are said in some of the documents you have = cited have not stood the test of time. Some of those principles interact with "Internet governance"; many, includi= ng questions about who should be in charge of various resources once one de= termines that someone, or some combination of actors, actually need to be, = do not. The mailing lists you are using are appropriate for discussions of= those issues although I think the case for cross-posting to internetgovtec= h and architecture-discuss, much less the nethistory list, has yet to be ma= de. But what I don't understand --and what is confusing me more with each posti= ng from you-- is why you are posting these notes and what you are trying to accomplish. Almost by definition, the readers of these lists know they exist and are out there. Most such reader= s know, or knew once, what the lists are supposed to be for. But almost ev= erything I've read from you seems to be an explanation of the existence of = an Internet architecture and/ or an Internet governance topic together with= the existence and availability of the lists. =20 Do you want something? Do you intend to try to explain something to us tha= t we don't know already? If so, is that explanation likely to be actionabl= e by the IETF or IAB and, if so, how. And, of course, what is it? thanks, john --On Thursday, April 25, 2019 08:16 +0700 Guntur Wiseno Putra wrote: > Dear All, >=20 > The Internet architecture --the Internet protocols and their > designs-- are in situations among which is about its possible=20 > inplementations enabled by such a governance(s). That is supposedly a=20 > matter of the Internet Governance suitable with what was ever=20 > officially published by the Internet Architecture Board related with=20 > the release of internetgovtech@iab.org mailing list (2013) >=20 > "to discuss topics regarding the intersection of Internet governance=20 > and IETF technical work. In particular, this list will focus on issues=20 > relating to Internet governance and regulation, including the 2014 ITU=20 > Plenipotentiary Conference, and their potential to impact the future=20 > of the Internet architecture". >=20 > https://iab.org/activities/internet-governance/ >=20 > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra >=20 > Pada Kamis, 25 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra =20 > menulis: >=20 >> Dear All, >>=20 >> D. Thaler in his "Evolution of the IP Model" (RFC 6250) referring IP=20 >> service model to section 2.2. of RFC 0791, RFC 1958, and section 2.1=20 >> of RFC 4903 --while the document as a whole referring also to other=20 >> RFCs. >>=20 >> There are also other historians and futurologs ever analysed the=20 >> Internet architecture examplified by >>=20 >> RFC 3274 "The Rise of the Middle and the Future of End-to-End >> Argument: Reflections on the Evolution of the Internet Architecture"=20 >> (Kempf, J. & R. Austen Eds., Network Working Group-IAB, 2004) >>=20 >> This document examined the development of end-to-end principles as it=20 >> had been applied by the Internet over years. >>=20 >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3274 >>=20 >> RFC 1827 "Toward The Future Internet Architecture" (Clark, D. >> et all., Network Working Group, 1991) >>=20 >> This document represented an understanding that the Internet=20 >> architecture as "the grand plan behind the TCP/IP protocol suite"=20 >> envisioned its possible evolution as there had been increasing signs=20 >> of strains on the fundemental architecture mostly stemming from the=20 >> continued growth of the Internet. >>=20 >>=20 >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1287 >>=20 >> Regard, >> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>=20 >> Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra =20 >> menulis: >>=20 >>> Dear All, >>>=20 >>> The reasoning of "The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical=20 >>> Work, and Net History" I said above "Individuals, or collective=20 >>> individuals, are in an age of the >>> Internet...": as it concerns with "concept", "discourse" and=20 >>> "history" is supposedly inspired by my personal experiences of=20 >>> reading works on and by Michel Foucault, Gilles Deleuze and Felix=20 >>> Guattari. >>>=20 >>> To those have interests with the "supposed inspiration" are pleased=20 >>> to visit these links below >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=3DFoucault&x=3D7&y=3D8 >>>=20 >>> https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=3DDeleuze%2C+Guattari&x=3D0&y=3D0 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Regard, >>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>=20 >>> Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra =20 >>> menulis: >>>=20 >>>> Dear All, >>>>=20 >>>> The websites www.datatracker.ietf.org and www.rfc-editor.org are=20 >>>> historians for the services of historical archives the provide.=20 >>>> While a personal historian may deserve to mention, especially on=20 >>>> the "Internet >>>> Architecture": >>>>=20 >>>> D. Thaler documented aspects of Internet Protocol service model as=20 >>>> they evolved over time .... Some guidence for protocol designers an=20 >>>> implementers were also suggested... >>>>=20 >>>> "RFC 6250: Evolution of IP Service Model" (IAB, May 2011) >>>>=20 >>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6250 >>>>=20 >>>> Regard, >>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>=20 >>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra =20 >>>> menulis: >>>>=20 >>>>> Dear All, >>>>>=20 >>>>> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture" >>>>> to Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message=20 >>>>> April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to mention "RFC 791: Internet=20 >>>>> Protocol" (J. Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- those=20 >>>>> obsolete and updates: which is about the name/title "Internet=20 >>>>> Protocol" they have... >>>>>=20 >>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791 >>>>>=20 >>>>> The RFC 791 is one of Official Internet Protocol >>>>> Standards: Internet Standards --of which there are ones do not use=20 >>>>> terms "Internet Protocol" -- for examples "Transmission Control=20 >>>>> Protocol", "User Datagram Protocol", " Broadcasting Internet=20 >>>>> Datagrams"... >>>>>=20 >>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards >>>>>=20 >>>>> Regard, >>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>=20 >>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra=20 >>>>> menulis: >>>>>=20 >>>>>> Dear All, >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture" to=20 >>>>>> Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message=20 >>>>>> April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to mention "RFC 791:=20 >>>>>> Internet Protocol" (J. >>>>>> Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- those obsolete and=20 >>>>>> updates: which is about the name/title "Internet Protocol" they=20 >>>>>> have.... >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Regard, >>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra=20 >>>>>> menulis: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Dear Hesham and All, >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> There is a need for correction for the earlier message: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I=20 >>>>>>> missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of=20 >>>>>>> "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the latter=20 >>>>>>> considered complexity (control) in relation with the Internet in=20 >>>>>>> large scale... >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> It should be: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I=20 >>>>>>> missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of=20 >>>>>>> "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the first=20 >>>>>>> considered complexity (control) in relation with the Internet in=20 >>>>>>> large scale... >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Regard, >>>>>>> Gintur Wiseno Putra >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra=20 >>>>>>> menulis: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Dear Hesham and All, >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I=20 >>>>>>>> missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of=20 >>>>>>>> "Architectural Principles of the Internet" >>>>>>>> (1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) in=20 >>>>>>>> relation with the Internet in large scale... >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Regard, >>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury <=20 >>>>>>>> Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com> menulis: >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> I think you meant RFC1958 which is updated by RFC3439. >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Hesham >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> *From:* Architecture-discuss >>>>>>>>> [mailto:architecture-discuss-b ounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of=20 >>>>>>>>> *Guntur Wiseno Putra *Sent:* Monday, April 22, 2019 6:41 AM >>>>>>>>> *To:* architecture-discuss@ietf.org; internetgovtech@iab.org;=20 >>>>>>>>> nethistory@ietf.org >>>>>>>>> *Subject:* [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance,=20 >>>>>>>>> Technical Work and Net History: A Speci >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Dear All, >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Of the question "What is the Internet Architecture?" >>>>>>>>> mentioned in the earlier message: >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Brian. E. Carpenter's text "RFC 1985: Architectural Principles=20 >>>>>>>>> of the Internet" mentioned about Internet protocols and their=20 >>>>>>>>> design: May this links helpful to get arrived there at related=20 >>>>>>>>> archives ( as the text did not use any online source but=20 >>>>>>>>> suppposedly paper ones as references)...: >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search?name=3D >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> - https://www.rfc-editor.org/ >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Here are menus "Internet Standard", "Official >>>>>>>>> Internet Protocol Standards", and "advanced search". >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Regard, >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra=20 >>>>>>>>> menulis: >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Dear All, >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Individuals, or collectifs of individuals, are in an age of=20 >>>>>>>>> the Internet. It is such a presence may be approached and=20 >>>>>>>>> sensed by many ways --even when one said that s/he had just=20 >>>>>>>>> eat a food which a receipt was gotten by communicating by the=20 >>>>>>>>> Internet.. >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Among others there are presences of "the Internet=20 >>>>>>>>> Architecture", "Internet Governance and Technical Work" and=20 >>>>>>>>> "Net History" as they represent interest-based mailing lists.=20 >>>>>>>>> How could one get arrived into those matters (together) --such=20 >>>>>>>>> a programmatic readership/learning: as sources and concepts=20 >>>>>>>>> have history and discources collectives/net... ? Should we=20 >>>>>>>>> imagine about information sources by making such a readership=20 >>>>>>>>> based on the linkage between the three...? Thus we may say=20 >>>>>>>>> about "The Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical=20 >>>>>>>>> Works: a Net History" (to say "A Net History in Terms of The=20 >>>>>>>>> Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical Work)...?=20 >>>>>>>>> --there would be a discourse map on the special readership=20 >>>>>>>>> which is about a co-presence of mailing lists...? --as one may=20 >>>>>>>>> use search engines of each mailing list for related=20 >>>>>>>>> interests...? >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> To make an engagement with the programme should we go with=20 >>>>>>>>> such tentative journeys considering parts of the special=20 >>>>>>>>> readership...? >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> For example: >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> By considering the reasoning above: >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> To the question on "What is the Internet Architecture?" we may=20 >>>>>>>>> refer to (archival) sources >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> "RFC 1958: Architectural Principles of the Internet" >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> (Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996) >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1958 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> (Note:) >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> It was a snapshot record of the principles of the Internet=20 >>>>>>>>> Achitecture intended for general guidance and general=20 >>>>>>>>> interest... >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> It was updated by RFC 3439... >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Both the concept "Internet Architecture" and the document RFC=20 >>>>>>>>> 1958 have history bringing readers to other relevant=20 >>>>>>>>> sources... They supposedly also give suggestions to come to=20 >>>>>>>>> broader or other conceptual discourses on "governance and=20 >>>>>>>>> technical work" >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Regard, >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 From nobody Thu Apr 25 07:46:57 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55C8512006F; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 03:23:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BOUND_DIGITS_15=0.798, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xMa0OG33rxjS; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 03:23:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x331.google.com (mail-ot1-x331.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::331]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DD89E1200EC; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 03:23:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x331.google.com with SMTP id f23so9794063otl.9; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 03:23:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=JVve4JfL120NFcpIL5mRFR41xiaVehd5XxpazjlHhqg=; b=hrmd7m2RAr5pbYNtyIGN/sj5E0UwMHANgDq8Yegr8vfv6b5WzejqLz7h1+Gpd+043w RAO1iDUWAa5qArq019wlKu4BbbGXQ9iLnG9ojMcNZ6cO2n395PZrdqdvCpq+XJ3JcVoe lK7xJ4FaaZTjJTswS6EyysquDMFQrfeRZoCzC16hoAXphG0Qs9ZEF+IbUh1pdfZ5DA7J 9aF9WXtMR0SZkhWLWVW7qeJCaYzYZ7cZNkDhrRO2kv32kBtVcx9o/stPj/ROVpFKsif5 zT/Zf5jfEb8JNxlNnp6AIQxqwWF4kyQj33xz5dI1Yrd5B53V2eSPzadP4MwwOLXV36fp bI3w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=JVve4JfL120NFcpIL5mRFR41xiaVehd5XxpazjlHhqg=; b=Ouc3b52FSICIDSjvqUutmT1Gx+SEg9JM8dsIZ251WXUcMtX3a0YXXtXrQP0JOireVc mC6t7nEsq2Hk6Kz2QixG5p+UXM9BA3BqNTLNzp9ihjKAQyKEd0IOrg8RVYOGUDNID0Mh QBD/lMy7aUCrpozKKfkhrhznbJ/dgHUKpH/O218K3xCQEyhu/5sjtQG8Z20LEZuhxeIk WI7jVjWLgfjPKOU1Dz8hjwUCMBa8wtnvJhWieOV010n/Qd1u+khxgINfIdBvyi83GtjT 6COmT0iBmsAV2bY+9AOX0KJjpomeRN/Ux5uL6dQWxqxX/TkUbQYSb02pXkyHUeVhr2Rn BftQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUale/mGtDJsTrFqT4Rt2jc025cRxYAf1xz1J0krL6PJFKui7Iy gZ2f37q/isWJa48u0JjtGt/pfSiM6CeSukasYQY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxnHqRreQDOyVuUktHycCxJPp5AQeQNLxiBV4QwZeHAc2SFI1Ttj8HB98Ry8H8SIl7g0yCpgZMkr80TRAyx6wg= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:4d0b:: with SMTP id n11mr21643580otf.98.1556187805158; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 03:23:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a9d:2065:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 03:23:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <754E03CE4D0735B550B88448@PSB> From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 17:23:24 +0700 Message-ID: To: Hesham ElBakoury Cc: John C Klensin , "internetgovtech@iab.org" , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" , "nethistory@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005490380587583501" Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 07:46:55 -0700 Subject: Re: [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 10:23:31 -0000 --0000000000005490380587583501 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear All John, Hesham and All, What are after such an "introductory" reading --such a grand image, such a grand map...? -on the Internet architecture and governance...? as we are trying to learn of those aspects by such reading with the help of a set of knowledges on concept, discourse and history...? Histories, historical stories, attempted above teach us: people struggled by technology. At least we have an "enthusiasm" for what will come up tomorrow, especially about our humanity and society regarding with possibilities of the Internet as a kind of communication platform --especially on aspects of it: architecture and governance... But, there are perhaps lacks with these analytical readings --those design and implementation-- being attempted... Here thus experts may come with their suggestions... Regard, Guntur Wiseno Putra Pada Kamis, 25 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury menulis: > I actually have the same question ... > > -----Original Message----- > From: John C Klensin [mailto:john-ietf@jck.com] > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2019 12:36 AM > To: Guntur Wiseno Putra > Cc: Hesham ElBakoury ; > internetgovtech@iab.org; architecture-discuss@ietf.org; > nethistory@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Internetgovtech] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, > Technical Work and Net History: A Speci > > Guntur, > > I've tried to following your multiple postings, but am getting more and > more confused. Yes, there are some broad principles that can be considered > together to constitute an "Internet architecture". Once one gets past > extremely broad principles and down to details, I doubt that there is > strong consensus in the community about many of the details of that > architecture: > there are other documents with different theories and some people would > claim that some of the things that are said in some of the documents you > have cited have not stood the test of time. > Some of those principles interact with "Internet governance"; many, > including questions about who should be in charge of various resources once > one determines that someone, or some combination of actors, actually need > to be, do not. The mailing lists you are using are appropriate for > discussions of those issues although I think the case for cross-posting to > internetgovtech and architecture-discuss, much less the nethistory list, > has yet to be made. > > But what I don't understand --and what is confusing me more with each > posting from you-- is why you are posting these notes and > what you are trying to accomplish. Almost by definition, the > readers of these lists know they exist and are out there. Most such > readers know, or knew once, what the lists are supposed to be for. But > almost everything I've read from you seems to be an explanation of the > existence of an Internet architecture and/ or an Internet governance topic > together with the existence and availability of the lists. > > Do you want something? Do you intend to try to explain something to us > that we don't know already? If so, is that explanation likely to be > actionable by the IETF or IAB and, if so, how. And, of course, what is it? > > thanks, > john > > > --On Thursday, April 25, 2019 08:16 +0700 Guntur Wiseno Putra < > gsenopu@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Dear All, > > > > The Internet architecture --the Internet protocols and their > > designs-- are in situations among which is about its possible > > inplementations enabled by such a governance(s). That is supposedly a > > matter of the Internet Governance suitable with what was ever > > officially published by the Internet Architecture Board related with > > the release of internetgovtech@iab.org mailing list (2013) > > > > "to discuss topics regarding the intersection of Internet governance > > and IETF technical work. In particular, this list will focus on issues > > relating to Internet governance and regulation, including the 2014 ITU > > Plenipotentiary Conference, and their potential to impact the future > > of the Internet architecture". > > > > https://iab.org/activities/internet-governance/ > > > > Regard, > > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > > > Pada Kamis, 25 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > > menulis: > > > >> Dear All, > >> > >> D. Thaler in his "Evolution of the IP Model" (RFC 6250) referring IP > >> service model to section 2.2. of RFC 0791, RFC 1958, and section 2.1 > >> of RFC 4903 --while the document as a whole referring also to other > >> RFCs. > >> > >> There are also other historians and futurologs ever analysed the > >> Internet architecture examplified by > >> > >> RFC 3274 "The Rise of the Middle and the Future of End-to-End > >> Argument: Reflections on the Evolution of the Internet Architecture" > >> (Kempf, J. & R. Austen Eds., Network Working Group-IAB, 2004) > >> > >> This document examined the development of end-to-end principles as it > >> had been applied by the Internet over years. > >> > >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3274 > >> > >> RFC 1827 "Toward The Future Internet Architecture" (Clark, D. > >> et all., Network Working Group, 1991) > >> > >> This document represented an understanding that the Internet > >> architecture as "the grand plan behind the TCP/IP protocol suite" > >> envisioned its possible evolution as there had been increasing signs > >> of strains on the fundemental architecture mostly stemming from the > >> continued growth of the Internet. > >> > >> > >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1287 > >> > >> Regard, > >> Guntur Wiseno Putra > >> > >> Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > >> menulis: > >> > >>> Dear All, > >>> > >>> The reasoning of "The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical > >>> Work, and Net History" I said above "Individuals, or collective > >>> individuals, are in an age of the > >>> Internet...": as it concerns with "concept", "discourse" and > >>> "history" is supposedly inspired by my personal experiences of > >>> reading works on and by Michel Foucault, Gilles Deleuze and Felix > >>> Guattari. > >>> > >>> To those have interests with the "supposed inspiration" are pleased > >>> to visit these links below > >>> > >>> > >>> https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=Foucault&x=7&y=8 > >>> > >>> https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=Deleuze%2C+Guattari&x=0&y=0 > >>> > >>> > >>> Regard, > >>> Guntur Wiseno Putra > >>> > >>> Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > >>> menulis: > >>> > >>>> Dear All, > >>>> > >>>> The websites www.datatracker.ietf.org and www.rfc-editor.org are > >>>> historians for the services of historical archives the provide. > >>>> While a personal historian may deserve to mention, especially on > >>>> the "Internet > >>>> Architecture": > >>>> > >>>> D. Thaler documented aspects of Internet Protocol service model as > >>>> they evolved over time .... Some guidence for protocol designers an > >>>> implementers were also suggested... > >>>> > >>>> "RFC 6250: Evolution of IP Service Model" (IAB, May 2011) > >>>> > >>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6250 > >>>> > >>>> Regard, > >>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra > >>>> > >>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > >>>> menulis: > >>>> > >>>>> Dear All, > >>>>> > >>>>> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture" > >>>>> to Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message > >>>>> April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to mention "RFC 791: Internet > >>>>> Protocol" (J. Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- those > >>>>> obsolete and updates: which is about the name/title "Internet > >>>>> Protocol" they have... > >>>>> > >>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791 > >>>>> > >>>>> The RFC 791 is one of Official Internet Protocol > >>>>> Standards: Internet Standards --of which there are ones do not use > >>>>> terms "Internet Protocol" -- for examples "Transmission Control > >>>>> Protocol", "User Datagram Protocol", " Broadcasting Internet > >>>>> Datagrams"... > >>>>> > >>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards > >>>>> > >>>>> Regard, > >>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra > >>>>> > >>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > >>>>> menulis: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Dear All, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture" to > >>>>>> Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message > >>>>>> April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to mention "RFC 791: > >>>>>> Internet Protocol" (J. > >>>>>> Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- those obsolete and > >>>>>> updates: which is about the name/title "Internet Protocol" they > >>>>>> have.... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Regard, > >>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > >>>>>> menulis: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Dear Hesham and All, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> There is a need for correction for the earlier message: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I > >>>>>>> missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of > >>>>>>> "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the latter > >>>>>>> considered complexity (control) in relation with the Internet in > >>>>>>> large scale... > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> It should be: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I > >>>>>>> missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of > >>>>>>> "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the first > >>>>>>> considered complexity (control) in relation with the Internet in > >>>>>>> large scale... > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Regard, > >>>>>>> Gintur Wiseno Putra > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > >>>>>>> menulis: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Dear Hesham and All, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I > >>>>>>>> missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of > >>>>>>>> "Architectural Principles of the Internet" > >>>>>>>> (1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) in > >>>>>>>> relation with the Internet in large scale... > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Regard, > >>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury < > >>>>>>>> Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com> menulis: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I think you meant RFC1958 which is updated by RFC3439. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Hesham > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> *From:* Architecture-discuss > >>>>>>>>> [mailto:architecture-discuss-b ounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of > >>>>>>>>> *Guntur Wiseno Putra *Sent:* Monday, April 22, 2019 6:41 AM > >>>>>>>>> *To:* architecture-discuss@ietf.org; internetgovtech@iab.org; > >>>>>>>>> nethistory@ietf.org > >>>>>>>>> *Subject:* [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, > >>>>>>>>> Technical Work and Net History: A Speci > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Dear All, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Of the question "What is the Internet Architecture?" > >>>>>>>>> mentioned in the earlier message: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Brian. E. Carpenter's text "RFC 1985: Architectural Principles > >>>>>>>>> of the Internet" mentioned about Internet protocols and their > >>>>>>>>> design: May this links helpful to get arrived there at related > >>>>>>>>> archives ( as the text did not use any online source but > >>>>>>>>> suppposedly paper ones as references)...: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search?name= > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> - https://www.rfc-editor.org/ > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Here are menus "Internet Standard", "Official > >>>>>>>>> Internet Protocol Standards", and "advanced search". > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Regard, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > >>>>>>>>> menulis: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Dear All, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Individuals, or collectifs of individuals, are in an age of > >>>>>>>>> the Internet. It is such a presence may be approached and > >>>>>>>>> sensed by many ways --even when one said that s/he had just > >>>>>>>>> eat a food which a receipt was gotten by communicating by the > >>>>>>>>> Internet.. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Among others there are presences of "the Internet > >>>>>>>>> Architecture", "Internet Governance and Technical Work" and > >>>>>>>>> "Net History" as they represent interest-based mailing lists. > >>>>>>>>> How could one get arrived into those matters (together) --such > >>>>>>>>> a programmatic readership/learning: as sources and concepts > >>>>>>>>> have history and discources collectives/net... ? Should we > >>>>>>>>> imagine about information sources by making such a readership > >>>>>>>>> based on the linkage between the three...? Thus we may say > >>>>>>>>> about "The Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical > >>>>>>>>> Works: a Net History" (to say "A Net History in Terms of The > >>>>>>>>> Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical Work)...? > >>>>>>>>> --there would be a discourse map on the special readership > >>>>>>>>> which is about a co-presence of mailing lists...? --as one may > >>>>>>>>> use search engines of each mailing list for related > >>>>>>>>> interests...? > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> To make an engagement with the programme should we go with > >>>>>>>>> such tentative journeys considering parts of the special > >>>>>>>>> readership...? > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> For example: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> By considering the reasoning above: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> To the question on "What is the Internet Architecture?" we may > >>>>>>>>> refer to (archival) sources > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> "RFC 1958: Architectural Principles of the Internet" > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> (Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996) > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1958 > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> (Note:) > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> It was a snapshot record of the principles of the Internet > >>>>>>>>> Achitecture intended for general guidance and general > >>>>>>>>> interest... > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> It was updated by RFC 3439... > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Both the concept "Internet Architecture" and the document RFC > >>>>>>>>> 1958 have history bringing readers to other relevant > >>>>>>>>> sources... They supposedly also give suggestions to come to > >>>>>>>>> broader or other conceptual discourses on "governance and > >>>>>>>>> technical work" > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Regard, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > --0000000000005490380587583501 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear All John, Hesham and All,


What are a= fter such an "introductory" reading --such a grand image, such a = grand map...? -on the Internet architecture and governance...?
as= we are trying to learn of those aspects by such reading with the help of a= set of knowledges on concept, discourse and history...?

=
Histories, historical stories, attempted above teach us: people strugg= led by technology. At least we have an "enthusiasm" for what will= come up tomorrow, especially about our humanity and society regarding with= possibilities of the Internet as a kind of communication platform --especi= ally on aspects of it: architecture and governance...

<= div>But, there are perhaps lacks with these analytical readings --those des= ign and implementation-- being attempted... Here thus experts may come with= their suggestions...




Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Kamis, 2= 5 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com> menulis:
I actually have the same question ...

-----Original Message-----
From: John C Klensin [mailto:john-ietf= @jck.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2019 12:36 AM
To: Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gm= ail.com>
Cc: Hesham ElBakoury <Hes= ham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>; internetgovtech@iab.org; architecture-discuss@ietf.org; nethistory@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Internetgovtech] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Tech= nical Work and Net History: A Speci

Guntur,

I've tried to following your multiple postings, but am getting more and= more confused.=C2=A0 Yes, there are some broad principles that can be cons= idered together to constitute an "Internet architecture".=C2=A0 O= nce one gets past extremely broad principles and down to details, I doubt t= hat there is strong consensus in the community about many of the details of= that architecture:
there are other documents with different theories and some people would cla= im that some of the things that are said in some of the documents you have = cited have not stood the test of time.
Some of those principles interact with "Internet governance"; man= y, including questions about who should be in charge of various resources o= nce one determines that someone, or some combination of actors, actually ne= ed to be, do not.=C2=A0 The mailing lists you are using are appropriate for= discussions of those issues although I think the case for cross-posting to= internetgovtech and architecture-discuss, much less the nethistory list, h= as yet to be made.

But what I don't understand --and what is confusing me more with each p= osting from you-- is why you are posting these notes and
what you are trying to accomplish.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Almost by definition, the readers of these lists know they exist and are out there.=C2=A0 Most such r= eaders know, or knew once, what the lists are supposed to be for.=C2=A0 But= almost everything I've read from you seems to be an explanation of the= existence of an Internet architecture and/ or an Internet governance topic= together with the existence and availability of the lists.=C2=A0

Do you want something?=C2=A0 Do you intend to try to explain something to u= s that we don't know already?=C2=A0 If so, is that explanation likely t= o be actionable by the IETF or IAB and, if so, how.=C2=A0 And, of course, w= hat is it?

thanks,
=C2=A0 john


--On Thursday, April 25, 2019 08:16 +0700 Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear All,
>
> The Internet architecture --the Internet protocols and their
> designs-- are in situations among which is about its possible
> inplementations enabled by such a governance(s). That is supposedly a =
> matter of the Internet Governance suitable with what was ever
> officially published by the Internet Architecture Board related with <= br> > the release of internetgovt= ech@iab.org mailing list (2013)
>
> "to discuss topics regarding the intersection of Internet governa= nce
> and IETF technical work. In particular, this list will focus on issues=
> relating to Internet governance and regulation, including the 2014 ITU=
> Plenipotentiary Conference, and their potential to impact the future <= br> > of the Internet architecture".
>
> https://iab.org/activities/internet-governance/
>
> Regard,
> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>
> Pada Kamis, 25 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
> menulis:
>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> D. Thaler in his "Evolution of the IP Model" (RFC 6250) = referring IP
>> service model to section 2.2. of RFC 0791, RFC 1958, and section 2= .1
>> of RFC 4903 --while the document as a whole referring also to othe= r
>> RFCs.
>>
>> There are also other historians and futurologs ever analysed the <= br> >> Internet architecture examplified by
>>
>> RFC 3274 "The Rise of the Middle and the Future of End-to-End=
>> Argument: Reflections on the Evolution of the Internet Architectur= e"
>> (Kempf, J.=C2=A0 & R. Austen Eds., Network Working Group-IAB, = 2004)
>>
>> This document examined the development of end-to-end principles as= it
>> had been applied by the Internet over years.
>>
>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3274
>>
>> RFC 1827 "Toward The Future Internet Architecture" (Clar= k, D.
>> et all., Network Working Group, 1991)
>>
>> This document represented an understanding that the Internet
>> architecture as "the grand plan behind the TCP/IP protocol su= ite"
>> envisioned its possible evolution as there had been increasing sig= ns
>> of strains on the fundemental architecture mostly stemming from th= e
>> continued growth of the Internet.
>>
>>
>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1287
>>
>> Regard,
>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>
>> Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
>> menulis:
>>
>>> Dear All,
>>>
>>> The reasoning of "The Internet, Architecture, Governance,= Technical
>>> Work, and Net History" I said above "Individuals, or= collective
>>> individuals, are in an age of the
>>> Internet...": as it concerns with "concept", &q= uot;discourse" and
>>> "history" is supposedly inspired by my personal expe= riences of
>>> reading works on and by Michel Foucault, Gilles Deleuze and Fe= lix
>>> Guattari.
>>>
>>> To those have interests with the "supposed inspiration&qu= ot; are pleased
>>> to visit these links below
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=3DFouca= ult&x=3D7&y=3D8
>>>
>>> https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=3DDeleuze%2C+Guattari&x=3D0&y=3D0
>>>
>>>
>>> Regard,
>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>
>>> Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
>>> menulis:
>>>
>>>> Dear All,
>>>>
>>>> The websites www.datatracker.ietf.org and www.rfc-editor.org are
>>>> historians for the services of historical archives the pro= vide.
>>>> While a personal historian may deserve to mention, especia= lly on
>>>> the "Internet
>>>> Architecture":
>>>>
>>>> D. Thaler documented aspects of Internet Protocol service = model as
>>>> they evolved over time .... Some guidence for protocol des= igners an
>>>> implementers were also suggested...
>>>>
>>>> "RFC 6250: Evolution of IP Service Model" (IAB, = May 2011)
>>>>
>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6250
>>>>
>>>> Regard,
>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>
>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
>>>> menulis:
>>>>
>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>
>>>>> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Arch= itecture"
>>>>> to Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in = my message
>>>>> April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to ment= ion "RFC 791: Internet
>>>>> Protocol" (J. Postel, September 1981) and its his= tories -- those
>>>>> obsolete and updates: which is about the name/title &q= uot;Internet
>>>>> Protocol" they have...
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791
>>>>>
>>>>> The RFC 791 is one of Official Internet Protocol
>>>>> Standards: Internet Standards --of which there are one= s do not use
>>>>> terms "Internet Protocol" -- for examples &q= uot;Transmission Control
>>>>> Protocol", "User Datagram Protocol", &q= uot; Broadcasting Internet
>>>>> Datagrams"...
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards
>>>>>
>>>>> Regard,
>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>>
>>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>> <gsenopu@gmail= .com> menulis:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet = Architecture" to
>>>>>> Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in= my message
>>>>>> April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to = mention "RFC 791:
>>>>>> Internet Protocol" (J.
>>>>>> Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- those= obsolete and
>>>>>> updates: which is about the name/title "Inter= net Protocol" they
>>>>>> have....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regard,
>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>> <gsenopu@g= mail.com> menulis:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Hesham and All,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is a need for correction for the earlier= message:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines&= quot; (2002) --which I
>>>>>>> missed before-- was made to propose such an ex= tension of
>>>>>>> "Architectural Principles of the Internet= " (1996) as the latter
>>>>>>> considered complexity (control) in relation wi= th the Internet in
>>>>>>> large scale...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt<= /a>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It should be:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines&= quot; (2002) --which I
>>>>>>> missed before-- was made to propose such an ex= tension of
>>>>>>> "Architectural Principles of the Internet= " (1996) as the first
>>>>>>> considered complexity (control) in relation wi= th the Internet in
>>>>>>> large scale...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt<= /a>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regard,
>>>>>>> Gintur Wiseno Putra
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putr= a
>>>>>>> <gseno= pu@gmail.com> menulis:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dear Hesham and All,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guideli= nes" (2002) --which I
>>>>>>>> missed before-- was made to propose such a= n extension of
>>>>>>>> "Architectural Principles of the Inte= rnet"
>>>>>>>> (1996) as the latter considered complexity= (control) in
>>>>>>>> relation with the Internet in large scale.= ..
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.= txt
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regard,
>>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Hesham ElBakour= y <
>>>>>>>> Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com> menulis:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think you meant RFC1958 which is upd= ated by RFC3439.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hesham
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *From:* Architecture-discuss
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:architecture-discuss-b o= unces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of
>>>>>>>>> *Guntur Wiseno Putra *Sent:* Monday, A= pril 22, 2019 6:41 AM
>>>>>>>>> *To:* architecture-discuss@ietf.org; internetgovtech@iab.org;
>>>>>>>>> nethistory@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* [arch-d] The Internet, Arch= itecture, Governance,
>>>>>>>>> Technical Work and Net History: A Spec= i
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Of the question "What is the Inte= rnet Architecture?"
>>>>>>>>> mentioned in the earlier message:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Brian. E. Carpenter's text "R= FC 1985: Architectural Principles
>>>>>>>>> of the Internet" mentioned about = Internet protocols and their
>>>>>>>>> design: May this links helpful to get = arrived there at related
>>>>>>>>> archives ( as the text did not use any= online source but
>>>>>>>>> suppposedly paper ones as references).= ..:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search?name=3D
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> - https://www.rfc-editor.org/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Here are=C2=A0 menus "= ;Internet Standard", "Official
>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Internet Protocol Standard= s", and "advanced search".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regard,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wise= no Putra
>>>>>>>>> <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Individuals, or collectifs of individu= als, are in an age of
>>>>>>>>> the Internet. It is such a presence ma= y be approached and
>>>>>>>>> sensed by many ways --even when one sa= id that s/he had just
>>>>>>>>> eat a food which a receipt was gotten = by communicating by the
>>>>>>>>> Internet..
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Among others there are presences of &q= uot;the Internet
>>>>>>>>> Architecture", "Internet Gov= ernance and Technical Work" and
>>>>>>>>> "Net History" as they repres= ent interest-based mailing lists.
>>>>>>>>> How could one get arrived into those m= atters (together) --such
>>>>>>>>> a programmatic readership/learning: as= sources and concepts
>>>>>>>>> have history and discources collective= s/net... ? Should we
>>>>>>>>> imagine about information sources by m= aking such a readership
>>>>>>>>> based on the linkage between the three= ...? Thus we may say
>>>>>>>>> about "The Internet Architecture,= Governance and Technical
>>>>>>>>> Works: a Net History" (to say &qu= ot;A Net History in Terms of The
>>>>>>>>> Internet Architecture, Governance and = Technical Work)...?
>>>>>>>>> --there would be a discourse map on th= e special readership
>>>>>>>>> which is about a co-presence of mailin= g lists...? --as one may
>>>>>>>>> use search engines of each mailing lis= t for related
>>>>>>>>> interests...?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To make an engagement with the program= me should we go with
>>>>>>>>> such tentative journeys considering pa= rts of the special
>>>>>>>>> readership...?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For example:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> By considering the reasoning above: >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To the question on "What is the I= nternet Architecture?" we may
>>>>>>>>> refer to (archival) sources
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "RFC 1958: Architectural Principl= es of the Internet"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996) >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc195= 8
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (Note:)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It was a snapshot record of the princi= ples of the Internet
>>>>>>>>> Achitecture intended for general guida= nce and general
>>>>>>>>> interest...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It was updated by RFC 3439...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Both the concept "Internet Archit= ecture" and the document RFC
>>>>>>>>> 1958 have history bringing readers to = other relevant
>>>>>>>>> sources... They supposedly also give s= uggestions to come to
>>>>>>>>> broader or other conceptual discourses= on "governance and
>>>>>>>>> technical work"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regard,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>




--0000000000005490380587583501-- From nobody Thu Apr 25 09:01:06 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44BE712020A; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 09:00:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z2u7OW2sbQpX; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 09:00:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 27F22120161; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 09:00:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1hJgnd-000J9l-VN; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 12:00:37 -0400 Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 12:00:32 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Guntur Wiseno Putra , Hesham ElBakoury cc: internetgovtech@iab.org, architecture-discuss@ietf.org, nethistory@ietf.org Message-ID: <8863DFD6A90B238F8B29FD67@PSB> In-Reply-To: References: <754E03CE4D0735B550B88448@PSB> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 16:00:57 -0000 Guntur, I may be just dense about what you are trying to say, but I'm not feeling much greater understanding after reading the note quoted below than I was before it. Are you trying to inform us about something you think we have missed? Perhaps trying to start a discussion on a variation of the older topic? If either of those, could be you be more specific? Or, if you are interested in different perspectives than the ones you are getting from the IAB and IETF materials you have cited (which I think your first paragraph below implies), see inline below. However note that the references listed are my personal preferences today, with some of them chosen to show some of the range of opinions and perspectives that exist and that have already been discussed and written about. Not only would others have different lists and different perspectives, but I might have different opinions on a different day. --On Thursday, April 25, 2019 17:23 +0700 Guntur Wiseno Putra wrote: > Dear All John, Hesham and All, > > > What are after such an "introductory" reading --such a grand > image, such a grand map...? -on the Internet architecture and > governance...? as we are trying to learn of those aspects by > such reading with the help of a set of knowledges on concept, > discourse and history...? For a recent view of the evolution of the technical architecture of the network (with some excursions toward policy implications), have a look at David D. Clark, _Designing an Internet_, MIT Press 2018, ISBN-13: 978-0262038607. There is also a view that you are unlikely to find in IETF architectural materials. From that perspective, with the advent and very widespread use of the web, the Internet and its protocol architecture are rapidly becoming nothing more (or less) than a collection of supporting functions for the web, with some historical applications that are gradually becoming irrelevant. I think an early W3C document, found at https://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-webarch-20030326/ , is a good starting point for understanding key elements of that view (even though it does not espouse it). On the so-called governance side, a good starting point for a contemporary overview is the Internet Governance Forum and the various proceedings and associated regional and intersessional activities you can find from their home page (https://www.intgovforum.org/multilingual/). There have also been a number of summer regional training seminars on the same general themes. A somewhat different perspective, focused differently, can be found in Jonathan Zittrain's _The Future of the Internet--And How to Stop It_, Yale University Press, 2008, ISBN-13: 978-0300124873. There is also a view that much of what has been discussed under the "Internet governance" rubric misses key issues (or, perhaps, is even irrelevant) because much of that work assumes that the Internet is so new and different that history and prior policy context does not count. Of course, if one goes too far in the other direction (or _an_ other direction), one gets to the the theory that all that is needed for the Internet is to extrapolate traditional telecommunications (mostly telephone) regulatory frameworks forward a bit and we know that approach does not work, both for technological reasons and because it has been tried a few times. A different approach that I find very helpful is to ask, not "Internet governance" questions but questions about what one gets when one starts from traditional, well-established, international relations models and and examines how Internet (and related) technologies change things. The best discussion of that approach I've run across is Nazli Choucri's _Cyberpolitics in International Relations_, MIT Press, 2012. A brand-new and different view, by the same authors, appears in Choucri and Clark, _International Relations in the Cyber Age: The Co-Evolution Dilemma_, MIT Press, 2019. > Histories, historical stories, attempted above teach us: > people struggled by technology. At least we have an > "enthusiasm" for what will come up tomorrow, especially about > our humanity and society regarding with possibilities of the > Internet as a kind of communication platform --especially on > aspects of it: architecture and governance... > But, there are perhaps lacks with these analytical readings > --those design and implementation-- being attempted... Here > thus experts may come with their suggestions... Well, maybe this is all new and experts haven't been heard from yet, but I'd urge you to consider, for example, Ithiel de Sola Pool's two late works from the standpoint of the evolution of communications policy: _Technologies of Freedom_ (1983) and the posthumous _Technologies without Boundaries_ (1990), both Belnap/Harvard University Press. Does that help fill in some of the blanks for you or have I missed your point entirely? best, john From nobody Thu Apr 25 12:25:33 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1394120322 for ; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 12:25:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=k8zHD2BQ; dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=KL6q+1qi Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YQTG-pUdsAPS for ; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 12:25:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DEFCF12032C for ; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 12:25:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 28345 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2019 19:25:27 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=6eb6.5cc209a7.k1904; i=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=du065Kp8rJPz+B45g4l1pr7XwFkp9xeNLAdjYHL4HAo=; b=k8zHD2BQVenD6xXr62p8e1K5+hlF7T1P/45CyOTQ8MC1kcr05p7vcKrLzp9zZPzZABFcxkvWyivfobPBvH1ox1CxgiNajH4E0fWZA1SiPBI+T7LNJV+ljRBgC2jVVr+wfsa0qE3e4mL6a4o5KmvS4v/MS6cuACOEeyd79zKGiqaoeISu5shLdL9N34jlpLgcGtX+k0YWq7Wq866Zqyu/awBv4tDq0FQVDs9EiturHCAVXWiIpXpWP9vLjUhnwlwX DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=6eb6.5cc209a7.k1904; olt=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=du065Kp8rJPz+B45g4l1pr7XwFkp9xeNLAdjYHL4HAo=; b=KL6q+1qiMo5dy8Xo2gIu5Nk1IpicQDxjsh5MMS93yP/UBdytux+FQ/m67+dNI8dN4tGyDje3amsOyCSc/hJxyADS/1RipGgaPdDXy3PIJ3w0MtQPGD82axMr/tnACvxKGuQE88aD17qKpUiBaH2jF8eg7sMa2kK6tjgGNbzGJp+bLV2rj2SyCS1n6DTaDXp9VHtgTqhvwso6b08veY1/PtjrWhGWm8LrWSqeEEekrMfQt/gXmD421XJ7xmruWIuZ Received: from ary.qy ([68.175.130.230]) by imap.iecc.com ([64.57.183.75]) with ESMTPSA (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD, johnl@iecc.com) via TCP; 25 Apr 2019 19:25:27 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 61ABC2012EF827; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 15:25:27 -0400 (EDT) Date: 25 Apr 2019 15:25:27 -0400 Message-Id: <20190425192527.61ABC2012EF827@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 19:25:32 -0000 In article you write: >What are after such an "introductory" reading --such a grand image, such a >grand map...? -on the Internet architecture and governance...? >as we are trying to learn of those aspects by such reading with the help of >a set of knowledges on concept, discourse and history...? > >Histories, historical stories, attempted above teach us: people struggled >by technology. At least we have an "enthusiasm" for what will come up >tomorrow, especially about our humanity and society regarding with >possibilities of the Internet as a kind of communication platform >--especially on aspects of it: architecture and governance... > >But, there are perhaps lacks with these analytical readings --those design >and implementation-- being attempted... Here thus experts may come with >their suggestions... Maybe it's just me, but I didn't understand any of that. I still have no idea why you are sending speculation about the history or design Internet to these lists. R's, John From nobody Thu Apr 25 19:42:54 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31DB6120397; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 19:42:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h2HzVyc-WwsD; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 19:42:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x22d.google.com (mail-oi1-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 62271120394; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 19:42:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x22d.google.com with SMTP id n187so1766104oih.6; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 19:42:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=/ZdYaOKTxbg4EEyy5U8dwFcLYBLrkJoPGnDbR6g8pRo=; b=bWsQtqHj3Z91J+7hGB2+cSFoTA+CriDTvbRgAEtRZPx1cxWPdXlKT2tMe9MqZEzzVq GZnAUKqqAb5UCBysZ6lt6mLMYr9Kt4rP60Eq2D1y8dgxgnaCNojrDiZilpYvcks9suq8 nM+DcCAabDpgI7Jrf9XXaQBj7qnKO6FXYCbHgGfsLEHeqMK/auQEULbipv7s8rA4whCb E3OJe0L27KDOKoezYi4ktFq6dPgWHEPntX2WAiIbJSOaO2ipcah7T99PXLaHPwbySHPe BicL5B5mf7I9q6HTfoG/bRZJCCFp0wL5nNhhF8F5MIprroD6QivQFA3qGnuKclpG/s4M 4v8w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=/ZdYaOKTxbg4EEyy5U8dwFcLYBLrkJoPGnDbR6g8pRo=; b=GWIBl/X1sGCBylPkJfTiSCy7mL9FTKnCpzF9rK+M8dEaE/2//lbTXVeM72zWug27Vg 4SbFqvgYQLaPTtlR594ofDipucOdfsV6mo3clBRriNHh4bf7GbqE3z81oRrM4gaHMSud dDcAImbSNIjjq8+GH8wCYVj07pU8/TXBzlJ/ZMABvBt0WtixlD1ljmSrzY1IgbYd1JtU SbWi3LVL2W5hlUK3NxaJ2wxO20JIPZSeQyZl6I9KrCgRWf03r+DSmm1He8eKFqdW2eUO Ls3KdMGosV6GCFuH6CUqBDCrDzsidFTcbzIvlIqTtMndCP8YQoE3T0YD4HWxozArjGPp +yzA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUZuRJK0c3uOfxzyxYNEAOtRGjCnzOs+MqZVr8i6KOXAYu+mfIi 86+yARxiDWPmbZsDkeF7NwE3UC3kHGAie5NiX0M= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqznMH62q8IRGqWgJZEOfHQihGHPboNCmVX0sPxZPIknRGrynX2moAYaZyPgY5O9Wy5VJy+eHFI+avmPn4WH9QM= X-Received: by 2002:aca:5556:: with SMTP id j83mr5076777oib.90.1556246561660; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 19:42:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a9d:2065:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 19:42:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <8863DFD6A90B238F8B29FD67@PSB> References: <754E03CE4D0735B550B88448@PSB> <8863DFD6A90B238F8B29FD67@PSB> From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 09:42:40 +0700 Message-ID: To: John C Klensin Cc: Hesham ElBakoury , "internetgovtech@iab.org" , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" , "nethistory@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007da496058765e3a9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 02:42:46 -0000 --0000000000007da496058765e3a9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear John C.K, John L. and All, A starting point, or starting points, is/are supposeddly high-valued question as it is about the term "introductory" I said earlier. Thus ones may come to one or more things--here we may say about the Internet architecture and governance--with their owns. Among others it is about "where should we start as we men live in the world with its spatio-temporal dimensions...?" While the analytical reading might have lacks in terms of designs and implementations as I said above was about the "introductory reading" I proposed. Yet, we also --with the help of such an introductory reading I proposed-- understand that "internet architecture" is about designs and implementations. What are about my designs and implementations for an introductory reading on the Internet architecture and governance...? Those people gathers around one or more things may rise concepts, discourses, and histories... Thank you John C. K for your suggestion on the references though I wander whether it wil be easy to find the inline ones... Regard, Guntur Wiseno Putra Pada Kamis, 25 April 2019, John C Klensin menulis: > Guntur, > > I may be just dense about what you are trying to say, but I'm > not feeling much greater understanding after reading the note > quoted below than I was before it. Are you trying to inform us > about something you think we have missed? Perhaps trying to > start a discussion on a variation of the older topic? If either > of those, could be you be more specific? Or, if you are > interested in different perspectives than the ones you are > getting from the IAB and IETF materials you have cited (which I > think your first paragraph below implies), see inline below. > However note that the references listed are my personal > preferences today, with some of them chosen to show some of the > range of opinions and perspectives that exist and that have > already been discussed and written about. Not only would others > have different lists and different perspectives, but I might > have different opinions on a different day. > > --On Thursday, April 25, 2019 17:23 +0700 Guntur Wiseno Putra > wrote: > > > Dear All John, Hesham and All, > > > > > > What are after such an "introductory" reading --such a grand > > image, such a grand map...? -on the Internet architecture and > > governance...? as we are trying to learn of those aspects by > > such reading with the help of a set of knowledges on concept, > > discourse and history...? > > For a recent view of the evolution of the technical architecture > of the network (with some excursions toward policy > implications), have a look at David D. Clark, _Designing an > Internet_, MIT Press 2018, ISBN-13: 978-0262038607. > > There is also a view that you are unlikely to find in IETF > architectural materials. From that perspective, with the advent > and very widespread use of the web, the Internet and its > protocol architecture are rapidly becoming nothing more (or > less) than a collection of supporting functions for the web, > with some historical applications that are gradually becoming > irrelevant. I think an early W3C document, found at > https://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-webarch-20030326/ , is a good > starting point for understanding key elements of that view (even > though it does not espouse it). > > > On the so-called governance side, a good starting point for a > contemporary overview is the Internet Governance Forum and the > various proceedings and associated regional and intersessional > activities you can find from their home page > (https://www.intgovforum.org/multilingual/). There have also > been a number of summer regional training seminars on the same > general themes. > > A somewhat different perspective, focused differently, can be > found in Jonathan Zittrain's _The Future of the Internet--And > How to Stop It_, Yale University Press, 2008, ISBN-13: > 978-0300124873. > > There is also a view that much of what has been discussed under > the "Internet governance" rubric misses key issues (or, perhaps, > is even irrelevant) because much of that work assumes that the > Internet is so new and different that history and prior policy > context does not count. Of course, if one goes too far in the > other direction (or _an_ other direction), one gets to the the > theory that all that is needed for the Internet is to > extrapolate traditional telecommunications (mostly telephone) > regulatory frameworks forward a bit and we know that approach > does not work, both for technological reasons and because it has > been tried a few times. > > A different approach that I find very helpful is to ask, not > "Internet governance" questions but questions about what one > gets when one starts from traditional, well-established, > international relations models and and examines how Internet > (and related) technologies change things. The best discussion > of that approach I've run across is Nazli Choucri's > _Cyberpolitics in International Relations_, MIT Press, 2012. A > brand-new and different view, by the same authors, appears in > Choucri and Clark, _International Relations in the Cyber Age: > The Co-Evolution Dilemma_, MIT Press, 2019. > > > Histories, historical stories, attempted above teach us: > > people struggled by technology. At least we have an > > "enthusiasm" for what will come up tomorrow, especially about > > our humanity and society regarding with possibilities of the > > Internet as a kind of communication platform --especially on > > aspects of it: architecture and governance... > > > But, there are perhaps lacks with these analytical readings > > --those design and implementation-- being attempted... Here > > thus experts may come with their suggestions... > > Well, maybe this is all new and experts haven't been heard from > yet, but I'd urge you to consider, for example, Ithiel de Sola > Pool's two late works from the standpoint of the evolution of > communications policy: _Technologies of Freedom_ (1983) and the > posthumous _Technologies without Boundaries_ (1990), both > Belnap/Harvard University Press. > > Does that help fill in some of the blanks for you or have I > missed your point entirely? > > best, > john > > > --0000000000007da496058765e3a9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear John C.K, John L. and All,

A starting point, or sta= rting points, is/are supposeddly high-valued question as it is about the te= rm "introductory" I said earlier. Thus ones may come to one or mo= re things--here we may say about the Internet architecture and governance--= with their owns. Among others it is about "where should we start as we= men live in the world with its spatio-temporal dimensions...?"=C2=A0<= /div>

While the analytical reading might have lacks in t= erms of designs and implementations as I said above was about the "int= roductory reading" I proposed. Yet, we also --with the help of such an= introductory reading I proposed-- understand that "internet architect= ure" is about designs and implementations.

Wh= at are about my designs and implementations for an introductory reading on = the Internet architecture and governance...? Those people gathers around on= e or more things may rise concepts, discourses, and histories...
=
Thank you John C. K for your suggestion on the references th= ough I wander whether it wil be easy to find the inline ones...
<= br>

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

P= ada Kamis, 25 April 2019, John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> menulis:
Guntur,

I may be just dense about what you are trying to say, but I'm
not feeling much greater understanding after reading the note
quoted below than I was before it.=C2=A0 Are you trying to inform us
about something you think we have missed?=C2=A0 Perhaps trying to
start a discussion on a variation of the older topic?=C2=A0 If either
of those, could be you be more specific?=C2=A0 =C2=A0Or, if you are
interested in different perspectives than the ones you are
getting from the IAB and IETF materials you have cited (which I
think your first paragraph below implies), see inline below.
However note that the references listed are my personal
preferences today, with some of them chosen to show some of the
range of opinions and perspectives that exist and that have
already been discussed and written about.=C2=A0 Not only would others
have different lists and different perspectives, but I might
have different opinions on a different day.

--On Thursday, April 25, 2019 17:23 +0700 Guntur Wiseno Putra
<gsenopu@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear All John, Hesham and All,
>
>
> What are after such an "introductory" reading --such a grand=
> image, such a grand map...? -on the Internet architecture and
> governance...? as we are trying to learn of those aspects by
> such reading with the help of a set of knowledges on concept,
> discourse and history...?

For a recent view of the evolution of the technical architecture
of the network (with some excursions toward policy
implications), have a look at David D. Clark, _Designing an
Internet_, MIT Press 2018, ISBN-13: 978-0262038607.

There is also a view that you are unlikely to find in IETF
architectural materials.=C2=A0 From that perspective, with the advent
and very widespread use of the web, the Internet and its
protocol architecture are rapidly becoming nothing more (or
less) than a collection of supporting functions for the web,
with some historical applications that are gradually becoming
irrelevant.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I think an early W3C document, found at
https://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-webarch-20030326/ , is a good
starting point for understanding key elements of that view (even
though it does not espouse it).


On the so-called governance side, a good starting point for a
contemporary overview is the Internet Governance Forum and the
various proceedings and associated regional and intersessional
activities you can find from their home page
(ht= tps://www.intgovforum.org/multilingual/).=C2=A0 There have also been a number of summer regional training seminars on the same
general themes.=C2=A0

A somewhat different perspective, focused differently, can be
found in Jonathan Zittrain's _The Future of the Internet--And
How to Stop It_, Yale University Press, 2008, ISBN-13:
978-0300124873.

There is also a view that much of what has been discussed under
the "Internet governance" rubric misses key issues (or, perhaps,<= br> is even irrelevant) because much of that work assumes that the
Internet is so new and different that history=C2=A0 and prior policy
context does not count.=C2=A0 Of course, if one goes too far in the
other direction (or _an_ other direction), one gets to the the
theory that all that is needed for the Internet is to
extrapolate traditional telecommunications (mostly telephone)
regulatory frameworks forward a bit and we know that approach
does not work, both for technological reasons and because it has
been tried a few times.

A different approach that I find very helpful is to ask, not
"Internet governance" questions but questions about what one
gets when one starts from traditional, well-established,
international relations models and and examines how Internet
(and related) technologies change things.=C2=A0 The best discussion
of that approach I've run across is Nazli Choucri's
_Cyberpolitics in International Relations_, MIT Press, 2012.=C2=A0 =C2=A0A<= br> brand-new and different view, by the same authors, appears in
Choucri and Clark, _International Relations in the Cyber Age:
The Co-Evolution Dilemma_, MIT Press, 2019.

> Histories, historical stories, attempted above teach us:
> people struggled by technology. At least we have an
> "enthusiasm" for what will come up tomorrow, especially abou= t
> our humanity and society regarding with possibilities of the
> Internet as a kind of communication platform --especially on
> aspects of it: architecture and governance...

> But, there are perhaps lacks with these analytical readings
> --those design and implementation-- being attempted... Here
> thus experts may come with their suggestions...

Well, maybe this is all new and experts haven't been heard from
yet, but I'd urge you to consider, for example, Ithiel de Sola
Pool's two late works from the standpoint of the evolution of
communications policy: _Technologies of Freedom_ (1983) and the
posthumous _Technologies without Boundaries_ (1990), both
Belnap/Harvard University Press.=C2=A0

Does that help fill in some of the blanks for you or have I
missed your point entirely?

best,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0john


--0000000000007da496058765e3a9-- From nobody Fri Apr 26 02:35:41 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 278241202F0 for ; Fri, 26 Apr 2019 02:35:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.275 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.275 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.723, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=libero.it Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CUg8fSD85ZNv for ; Fri, 26 Apr 2019 02:35:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from libero.it (smtp-32-i2.italiaonline.it [213.209.12.32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8CB9D120075 for ; Fri, 26 Apr 2019 02:35:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxapps-08-047.iol.local ([10.101.8.57]) by smtp-32.iol.local with ESMTPA id JxE7hKLGyHqy4JxE7hcitT; Fri, 26 Apr 2019 11:33:04 +0200 x-libjamoibt: 1601 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=libero.it; s=s2014; t=1556271184; bh=tltRaifcif/ivRZVyLyMbYUBt9kaOpB7WF7T/jR0lWg=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject; b=kxI9RsfwR0rhzYKqCzGcKP0zVwi6U36BRLPQOSqj9NnHHRCYSJPjSNCfh8r2c6QRS YnpFWtKkXJQ/zwE0G2VADYmUH9HeAMT9Z6ta798yOAbuz1cJlAJzYxHIDQavdLsFhI tA3iEz3rq71UGI5QIlQKdoXgkzVl46yurZETiXYsDd5BaerhUY0I7J0WGpoPx6x5Gj lGQsGCng0t3bVvmmTV/7woR9gBsbRivJMhwbYnR53P8y16mjgfqUZx1S0AIPbDUXQH Kbq9P+5hGC74b63GYbEE70Vs3YXB9DPIwnxFy8WBeKSlWsfd/yCJ2nP3StftP5IlV5 3Armrk4U8GDVw== X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=CoRujUwD c=1 sm=1 tr=0 cx=a_idp_d a=YjcV1L+cHlwd9dMdVBh9iA==:117 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=oCA5nOCeRF4A:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=tuJM_ceiGNcA:10 a=i0EeH86SAAAA:8 a=9NGZVl_YAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=PVlkjBJtAAAA:8 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=BqEg4_3jAAAA:8 a=aEcsk3HXAAAA:8 a=uh99cHPwxgKsl-WxTqkA:9 a=2XaBpIJ9VGLvliCc:21 a=nULPKbgreyCe6QEC:21 a=f5nJBIYMG9l7QR2n:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=D7JCScNmnv7i29dlldji:22 a=boGXJ1g9TDZA5kD0mADd:22 a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 a=0mFWnFbQd5xWBqmg7tTt:22 a=gsMaQcVfUYBMhIJVYkh0:22 Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 11:33:03 +0200 (CEST) From: giorgio.simeoli@libero.it To: Hesham ElBakoury , Guntur Wiseno Putra , John C Klensin Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org, internetgovtech@iab.org, nethistory@ietf.org Message-ID: <165550584.544519.1556271183819@mail.libero.it> In-Reply-To: References: <754E03CE4D0735B550B88448@PSB> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 Importance: Medium X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.8.3-Rev55 X-Originating-IP: 91.253.202.99 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite x-libjamsun: PtdBdkEeT9iCJpq+iY0n1elytYacSZ1OOnH4g3YgEq4= x-libjamv: G76XHMBHY+g= X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfFKhLXj20KrgfJaE2BG08iwL5y1MbK8nmF/5mH0mGRfz1plSed7S7gJv0LCnLW5X5DKnAZwMwfmozF4DddN2eoXtNAzyPGe/N+bsh3Ahq0nyKMoEZZS4 +915z3opSrRpmDzXZtEn+Cx8YZEhPW/Ft36T5pAJ8TXpGsbLinlPOh2E9pYGW3pZp7v9SCa+HaIO2XEUa0t4fgYAMmXTPLVGpr1s42/jGlXaw0g0SJXlZw83 l55Q9Fkox8TdUYnIeZ5AUv1xEV6UOwtDK/KmhLnQUu+579yXaT7X1szkCAv8Oc+bxzfp6Tp2D0V6sSsqXGRKqSEHb1NjBdXUP+6tGjm1ha3bfkm6po8AHm2S acnQPKyg Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] [Internetgovtech] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 09:35:39 -0000


Il 25 aprile 2019 alle 10.40 Hesham = ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com> ha scritto:

I actuall= y have the same question ...

-----Original Message-----
From: John= C Klensin [mailto:john-ietf@jck.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2019 12:= 36 AM
To: Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
Cc: Hesham = ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>; internetgovtech@iab.org; a= rchitecture-discuss@ietf.org; nethistory@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Internet= govtech] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net His= tory: A Speci

Guntur,

I've tried to following your multiple= postings, but am getting more and more confused. Yes, there are some broad= principles that can be considered together to constitute an "Internet = architecture". Once one gets past extremely broad principles and down t= o details, I doubt that there is strong consensus in the community about ma= ny of the details of that architecture:
there are other documents with d= ifferent theories and some people would claim that some of the things that = are said in some of the documents you have cited have not stood the test of= time.
Some of those principles interact with "Internet governance&#= 34;; many, including questions about who should be in charge of various res= ources once one determines that someone, or some combination of actors, act= ually need to be, do not. The mailing lists you are using are appropriate f= or discussions of those issues although I think the case for cross-posting = to internetgovtech and architecture-discuss, much less the nethistory list,= has yet to be made.

But what I don't understand --and what is co= nfusing me more with each posting from you-- is why you are posting these n= otes and
what you are trying to accomplish. Almost by definition, thereaders of these lists know they exist and are out there. Most such reader= s know, or knew once, what the lists are supposed to be for. But almost eve= rything I've read from you seems to be an explanation of the existence = of an Internet architecture and/ or an Internet governance topic together w= ith the existence and availability of the lists.

Do you want somethin= g? Do you intend to try to explain something to us that we don't know a= lready? If so, is that explanation likely to be actionable by the IETF or I= AB and, if so, how. And, of course, what is it?

thanks,
john

<= p>--On Thursday, April 25, 2019 08:16 +0700 Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenop= u@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear All,

The Internet arch= itecture --the Internet protocols and their
designs-- are in situations = among which is about its possible
inplementations enabled by such a gove= rnance(s). That is supposedly a
matter of the Internet Governance suitab= le with what was ever
officially published by the Internet Architecture = Board related with
the release of internetgovtech@iab.org mailing list (= 2013)

"to discuss topics regarding the intersection of Internet g= overnance
and IETF technical work. In particular, this list will focus o= n issues
relating to Internet governance and regulation, including the 2= 014 ITU
Plenipotentiary Conference, and their potential to impact the fu= ture
of the Internet architecture".

https://iab.org/activities/internet-gover= nance/

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Kamis, 25 April = 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
menulis:

Dear All,

D. Thaler in his "Evolution of the IP Model= 4; (RFC 6250) referring IP
service model to section 2.2. of RFC 0791, RF= C 1958, and section 2.1
of RFC 4903 --while the document as a whole refe= rring also to other
RFCs.

There are also other historians and futu= rologs ever analysed the
Internet architecture examplified by

RFC = 3274 "The Rise of the Middle and the Future of End-to-End
Argument: = Reflections on the Evolution of the Internet Architecture"
(Kempf, J= . & R. Austen Eds., Network Working Group-IAB, 2004)

This documen= t examined the development of end-to-end principles as it
had been appli= ed by the Internet over years.

https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3274

RFC 1827 &#= 34;Toward The Future Internet Architecture" (Clark, D.
et all., Netw= ork Working Group, 1991)

This document represented an understanding t= hat the Internet
architecture as "the grand plan behind the TCP/IP p= rotocol suite"
envisioned its possible evolution as there had been i= ncreasing signs
of strains on the fundemental architecture mostly stemmi= ng from the
continued growth of the Internet.

https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1287=

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntu= r Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
menulis:

De= ar All,

The reasoning of "The Internet, Architecture, Governance,= Technical
Work, and Net History" I said above "Individuals, or = collective
individuals, are in an age of the
Internet...": as it = concerns with "concept", "discourse" and
"history= 4; is supposedly inspired by my personal experiences of
reading works on= and by Michel Foucault, Gilles Deleuze and Felix
Guattari.

To tho= se have interests with the "supposed inspiration" are pleased
to= visit these links below

https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=3DFoucault= &x=3D7&y=3D8

https://www.espacestemps.net/?s= =3DDeleuze%2C+Guattari&x=3D0&y=3D0

Regard,
Guntur Wise= no Putra

Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@g= mail.com>
menulis:

Dear All,

The websites ww= w.datatracker.ietf.org and www.rfc-editor.org are
historians for the ser= vices of historical archives the provide.
While a personal historian may= deserve to mention, especially on
the "Internet
Architecture"= ;:

D. Thaler documented aspects of Internet Protocol service model as=
they evolved over time .... Some guidence for protocol designers an
= implementers were also suggested...

"RFC 6250: Evolution of IP Se= rvice Model" (IAB, May 2011)

https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6250

Regard,Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra= <gsenopu@gmail.com>
menulis:

Dear All,

= As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture"
to In= ternet protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message
April 21st 2= 019): it looks "special" to mention "RFC 791: Internet
Proto= col" (J. Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- those
obsolete= and updates: which is about the name/title "Internet
Protocol" = they have...

https= ://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791

The RFC 791 is one of Official = Internet Protocol
Standards: Internet Standards --of which there are one= s do not use
terms "Internet Protocol" -- for examples "Tran= smission Control
Protocol", "User Datagram Protocol", " = Broadcasting Internet
Datagrams"...

https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards

Regar= d,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno P= utra
<gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:

Dear All,

As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture" toInternet protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message
April 21= st 2019): it looks "special" to mention "RFC 791:
Internet P= rotocol" (J.
Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- those obso= lete and
updates: which is about the name/title "Internet Protocol&#= 34; they
have....

https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791

Regard,
Guntur Wisen= o Putra

Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
<gseno= pu@gmail.com> menulis:

Dear Hesham and All,

The= re is a need for correction for the earlier message:

The update "= The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I
missed before-- was m= ade to propose such an extension of
"Architectural Principles of the= Internet" (1996) as the latter
considered complexity (control) in r= elation with the Internet in
large scale...

https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt=

It should be:

The update "The Architectural Guidelines= " (2002) --which I
missed before-- was made to propose such an exten= sion of
"Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the= first
considered complexity (control) in relation with the Internet in<= br>large scale...

https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt

Regard,
Gintur = Wiseno Putra

Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
<= gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:

Dear Hesham and All,

<= p>The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I
mis= sed before-- was made to propose such an extension of
"Architectural= Principles of the Internet"
(1996) as the latter considered complex= ity (control) in
relation with the Internet in large scale...

https://www.rfc-editor.o= rg/rfc/rfc3439.txt

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Seni= n, 22 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury <
Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>= ; menulis:

I think you meant RFC1958 which is updated by = RFC3439.

Hesham

*From:* Architecture-discuss
[mailto:archite= cture-discuss-b ounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of
*Guntur Wiseno Putra *Sen= t:* Monday, April 22, 2019 6:41 AM
*To:* architecture-discuss@ietf.org; = internetgovtech@iab.org;
nethistory@ietf.org
*Subject:* [arch-d] The = Internet, Architecture, Governance,
Technical Work and Net History: A Sp= eci

Dear All,

Of the question "What is the Internet Archite= cture?"
mentioned in the earlier message:

Brian. E. Carpenter&= #39;s text "RFC 1985: Architectural Principles
of the Internet" = mentioned about Internet protocols and their
design: May this links help= ful to get arrived there at related
archives ( as the text did not use a= ny online source but
suppposedly paper ones as references)...:

Here are m= enus "Internet Standard", "Official
Internet Protocol Stand= ards", and "advanced search".

Regard,

Guntur Wiseno= Putra

Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
<gsenopu= @gmail.com> menulis:

Dear All,

Individuals, or collectifs o= f individuals, are in an age of
the Internet. It is such a presence may = be approached and
sensed by many ways --even when one said that s/he had= just
eat a food which a receipt was gotten by communicating by the
I= nternet..

Among others there are presences of "the Internet
Ar= chitecture", "Internet Governance and Technical Work" and
&#= 34;Net History" as they represent interest-based mailing lists.
How = could one get arrived into those matters (together) --such
a programmati= c readership/learning: as sources and concepts
have history and discourc= es collectives/net... ? Should we
imagine about information sources by m= aking such a readership
based on the linkage between the three...? Thus = we may say
about "The Internet Architecture, Governance and Technica= l
Works: a Net History" (to say "A Net History in Terms of TheInternet Architecture, Governance and Technical Work)...?
--there woul= d be a discourse map on the special readership
which is about a co-prese= nce of mailing lists...? --as one may
use search engines of each mailing= list for related
interests...?

To make an engagement with the pro= gramme should we go with
such tentative journeys considering parts of th= e special
readership...?

For example:

By considering the rea= soning above:

To the question on "What is the Internet Architectu= re?" we may
refer to (archival) sources

"RFC 1958: Archite= ctural Principles of the Internet"

(Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, = 1996)

https://www= .rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1958

(Note:)

It was a snapshot reco= rd of the principles of the Internet
Achitecture intended for general gu= idance and general
interest...

It was updated by RFC 3439...

Both the concept "Internet Architecture" and the document RFC
1= 958 have history bringing readers to other relevant
sources... They supp= osedly also give suggestions to come to
broader or other conceptual disc= ourses on "governance and
technical work"

Regard,

Gu= ntur Wiseno Putra

_________= ______________________________________
Architecture-discuss mailing list=
Architecture-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/arch= itecture-discuss

=20 From nobody Fri Apr 26 05:43:40 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0C781200FB; Fri, 26 Apr 2019 05:43:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QtCsRNnT2NBp; Fri, 26 Apr 2019 05:43:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x232.google.com (mail-oi1-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B49001200D7; Fri, 26 Apr 2019 05:43:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x232.google.com with SMTP id k6so2809747oic.4; Fri, 26 Apr 2019 05:43:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=9KzzsKTbMiPIsvOxSTTG/F/G9GHwZ6QnC2V0gZb0vbE=; b=RaiQpVeX0HTl3U7FTxapZQztXxr99xJkhwPaEKPHENKsNo47ki3RtJusBdOj/nM6jJ h2QXoEG6hY7rfpqL4Cw5KyrK2jF9j6HndDT/mCgPZudhE+InhTbi+47th4QOrjJQrNx+ TaVX8GcQARdgZWXSeITf6f6fo6sqzrfV/eWOUD2BM0WK5PTa6XrKOxNmd+SPeZVkfZoC EBuQ/Jn66SW/hgkjpKICdu90nEUjC6kMuW8Ct8kCa6qSIE/OU1/UPPRVhlZoyamhzW42 MPgLFXOymaKgdmRzqXt4OD08lSkwtD5PfkKaBWUgM/6UhEKkk2gCvP8qo469Dxj4wDVz Xokg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9KzzsKTbMiPIsvOxSTTG/F/G9GHwZ6QnC2V0gZb0vbE=; b=Bso8gmaREQ7XN7KJCPZJqaxyUeXwtSZAGSA+bFp9CU1Dd+kc7n6yCs26JSRrGt1nI0 Dxrh0G93a7S5NSSlElvg9lAQRqqkRizdSjkfe5HrRxAgZT2UbFXKb5P03eYgO0RMLOzC 75hQs1wo6CGebvFFoA+zxstAsIXKxzpAKw5it0Sn/BsX20xSVLvRuDEq2u8qLNkz327a EC6ANNxK2JdvegDfuMO7qZE632HSuwJ31q7cxtuzzPJXKfCuVzOSLnI/1d93fUO3D8eH 8VxFiZdNeI0LLJVUz+l3DvHKVNI4Qs8buoqyQIaNLe33qZee8iF9M2WaQ7OoR3JMXWcA HzHA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUqjW1cMduz7QMyOqxQ9O98XntkoTVoNmh3Bh13NCnUKweyYC1T WcE/rTYon07PyjIqOsiO0apghv0QT7p+gzbMx8k= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyT2dcO/FxGKCLkHymD+IqmIWrHb3GUsAqQcGfWsdiPUmctTfHd9Gf6qoYvOSOXhMEJjlXgxNbLTxHsna0n8IQ= X-Received: by 2002:aca:b587:: with SMTP id e129mr6393041oif.143.1556282612978; Fri, 26 Apr 2019 05:43:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a9d:2065:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Fri, 26 Apr 2019 05:43:31 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <165550584.544519.1556271183819@mail.libero.it> References: <754E03CE4D0735B550B88448@PSB> <165550584.544519.1556271183819@mail.libero.it> From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 19:43:31 +0700 Message-ID: To: "giorgio.simeoli@libero.it" Cc: Hesham ElBakoury , John C Klensin , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" , "internetgovtech@iab.org" , "nethistory@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000511a1705876e48f2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 12:43:38 -0000 --000000000000511a1705876e48f2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear Giorgio and All, Forgive me if I do not understand your message: if I did not miss things, it came to me as a record of the talks under the same title: "The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Special Reading": which were since the first sent by me until the last sent by Joe Abley... Was there things I missed of your message...? Regard, Guntur Wiseno Putra Pada Jumat, 26 April 2019, menulis: > > Il 25 aprile 2019 alle 10.40 Hesham ElBakoury > ha scritto: > > I actually have the same question ... > > -----Original Message----- > From: John C Klensin [mailto:john-ietf@jck.com] > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2019 12:36 AM > To: Guntur Wiseno Putra > Cc: Hesham ElBakoury ; > internetgovtech@iab.org; architecture-discuss@ietf.org; > nethistory@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Internetgovtech] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, > Technical Work and Net History: A Speci > > Guntur, > > I've tried to following your multiple postings, but am getting more and > more confused. Yes, there are some broad principles that can be considered > together to constitute an "Internet architecture". Once one gets past > extremely broad principles and down to details, I doubt that there is > strong consensus in the community about many of the details of that > architecture: > there are other documents with different theories and some people would > claim that some of the things that are said in some of the documents you > have cited have not stood the test of time. > Some of those principles interact with "Internet governance"; many, > including questions about who should be in charge of various resources once > one determines that someone, or some combination of actors, actually need > to be, do not. The mailing lists you are using are appropriate for > discussions of those issues although I think the case for cross-posting to > internetgovtech and architecture-discuss, much less the nethistory list, > has yet to be made. > > But what I don't understand --and what is confusing me more with each > posting from you-- is why you are posting these notes and > what you are trying to accomplish. Almost by definition, the > readers of these lists know they exist and are out there. Most such > readers know, or knew once, what the lists are supposed to be for. But > almost everything I've read from you seems to be an explanation of the > existence of an Internet architecture and/ or an Internet governance topic > together with the existence and availability of the lists. > > Do you want something? Do you intend to try to explain something to us > that we don't know already? If so, is that explanation likely to be > actionable by the IETF or IAB and, if so, how. And, of course, what is it? > > thanks, > john > > --On Thursday, April 25, 2019 08:16 +0700 Guntur Wiseno Putra < > gsenopu@gmail.com> wrote: > > Dear All, > > The Internet architecture --the Internet protocols and their > designs-- are in situations among which is about its possible > inplementations enabled by such a governance(s). That is supposedly a > matter of the Internet Governance suitable with what was ever > officially published by the Internet Architecture Board related with > the release of internetgovtech@iab.org mailing list (2013) > > "to discuss topics regarding the intersection of Internet governance > and IETF technical work. In particular, this list will focus on issues > relating to Internet governance and regulation, including the 2014 ITU > Plenipotentiary Conference, and their potential to impact the future > of the Internet architecture". > > https://iab.org/activities/internet-governance/ > > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > Pada Kamis, 25 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > menulis: > > Dear All, > > D. Thaler in his "Evolution of the IP Model" (RFC 6250) referring IP > service model to section 2.2. of RFC 0791, RFC 1958, and section 2.1 > of RFC 4903 --while the document as a whole referring also to other > RFCs. > > There are also other historians and futurologs ever analysed the > Internet architecture examplified by > > RFC 3274 "The Rise of the Middle and the Future of End-to-End > Argument: Reflections on the Evolution of the Internet Architecture" > (Kempf, J. & R. Austen Eds., Network Working Group-IAB, 2004) > > This document examined the development of end-to-end principles as it > had been applied by the Internet over years. > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3274 > > RFC 1827 "Toward The Future Internet Architecture" (Clark, D. > et all., Network Working Group, 1991) > > This document represented an understanding that the Internet > architecture as "the grand plan behind the TCP/IP protocol suite" > envisioned its possible evolution as there had been increasing signs > of strains on the fundemental architecture mostly stemming from the > continued growth of the Internet. > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1287 > > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > menulis: > > Dear All, > > The reasoning of "The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical > Work, and Net History" I said above "Individuals, or collective > individuals, are in an age of the > Internet...": as it concerns with "concept", "discourse" and > "history" is supposedly inspired by my personal experiences of > reading works on and by Michel Foucault, Gilles Deleuze and Felix > Guattari. > > To those have interests with the "supposed inspiration" are pleased > to visit these links below > > https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=Foucault&x=7&y=8 > > https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=Deleuze%2C+Guattari&x=0&y=0 > > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > menulis: > > Dear All, > > The websites www.datatracker.ietf.org and www.rfc-editor.org are > historians for the services of historical archives the provide. > While a personal historian may deserve to mention, especially on > the "Internet > Architecture": > > D. Thaler documented aspects of Internet Protocol service model as > they evolved over time .... Some guidence for protocol designers an > implementers were also suggested... > > "RFC 6250: Evolution of IP Service Model" (IAB, May 2011) > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6250 > > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > menulis: > > Dear All, > > As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture" > to Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message > April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to mention "RFC 791: Internet > Protocol" (J. Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- those > obsolete and updates: which is about the name/title "Internet > Protocol" they have... > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791 > > The RFC 791 is one of Official Internet Protocol > Standards: Internet Standards --of which there are ones do not use > terms "Internet Protocol" -- for examples "Transmission Control > Protocol", "User Datagram Protocol", " Broadcasting Internet > Datagrams"... > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards > > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > menulis: > > Dear All, > > As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture" to > Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message > April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to mention "RFC 791: > Internet Protocol" (J. > Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- those obsolete and > updates: which is about the name/title "Internet Protocol" they > have.... > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791 > > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > menulis: > > Dear Hesham and All, > > There is a need for correction for the earlier message: > > The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I > missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of > "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the latter > considered complexity (control) in relation with the Internet in > large scale... > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt > > It should be: > > The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I > missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of > "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the first > considered complexity (control) in relation with the Internet in > large scale... > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt > > Regard, > Gintur Wiseno Putra > > Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > menulis: > > Dear Hesham and All, > > The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I > missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of > "Architectural Principles of the Internet" > (1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) in > relation with the Internet in large scale... > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt > > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury < > Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com> menulis: > > I think you meant RFC1958 which is updated by RFC3439. > > Hesham > > *From:* Architecture-discuss > [mailto:architecture-discuss-b ounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of > *Guntur Wiseno Putra *Sent:* Monday, April 22, 2019 6:41 AM > *To:* architecture-discuss@ietf.org; internetgovtech@iab.org; > nethistory@ietf.org > *Subject:* [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, > Technical Work and Net History: A Speci > > Dear All, > > Of the question "What is the Internet Architecture?" > mentioned in the earlier message: > > Brian. E. Carpenter's text "RFC 1985: Architectural Principles > of the Internet" mentioned about Internet protocols and their > design: May this links helpful to get arrived there at related > archives ( as the text did not use any online source but > suppposedly paper ones as references)...: > > - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search?name= > > > - https://www.rfc-editor.org/ > > Here are menus "Internet Standard", "Official > Internet Protocol Standards", and "advanced search". > > Regard, > > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > menulis: > > Dear All, > > Individuals, or collectifs of individuals, are in an age of > the Internet. It is such a presence may be approached and > sensed by many ways --even when one said that s/he had just > eat a food which a receipt was gotten by communicating by the > Internet.. > > Among others there are presences of "the Internet > Architecture", "Internet Governance and Technical Work" and > "Net History" as they represent interest-based mailing lists. > How could one get arrived into those matters (together) --such > a programmatic readership/learning: as sources and concepts > have history and discources collectives/net... ? Should we > imagine about information sources by making such a readership > based on the linkage between the three...? Thus we may say > about "The Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical > Works: a Net History" (to say "A Net History in Terms of The > Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical Work)...? > --there would be a discourse map on the special readership > which is about a co-presence of mailing lists...? --as one may > use search engines of each mailing list for related > interests...? > > To make an engagement with the programme should we go with > such tentative journeys considering parts of the special > readership...? > > For example: > > By considering the reasoning above: > > To the question on "What is the Internet Architecture?" we may > refer to (archival) sources > > "RFC 1958: Architectural Principles of the Internet" > > (Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996) > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1958 > > (Note:) > > It was a snapshot record of the principles of the Internet > Achitecture intended for general guidance and general > interest... > > It was updated by RFC 3439... > > Both the concept "Internet Architecture" and the document RFC > 1958 have history bringing readers to other relevant > sources... They supposedly also give suggestions to come to > broader or other conceptual discourses on "governance and > technical work" > > Regard, > > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > > --000000000000511a1705876e48f2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Giorgio and All,

Forgive me if I do not understand = your message: if I did not miss things, it came to me as a record of the ta= lks under the same title: "The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Tec= hnical Work and Net History: A Special Reading": which were since the = first sent by me until the last sent by Joe Abley...

Was there things I missed of your message...?

<= br>
Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Jumat, 26 A= pril 2019, <giorgio.simeol= i@libero.it> menulis:
=20


Il 25 aprile 2019 alle 10.40 Hesham ElBakour= y <Hesh= am.ElBakoury@huawei.com> ha scritto:

I actually have the same = question ...

-----Original Message-----
From: John C Klensin [mail= to:john-ietf@jck.com= ]
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2019 12:36 AM
To: Guntur Wiseno Putra= <gsenopu@gmail.c= om>
Cc: Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>; internetgovtech@iab.o= rg; = architecture-discuss@ietf.org; nethistory@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Internetgovtech] = The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A S= peci

Guntur,

I've tried to following your multiple postings= , but am getting more and more confused. Yes, there are some broad principl= es that can be considered together to constitute an "Internet architec= ture". Once one gets past extremely broad principles and down to detai= ls, I doubt that there is strong consensus in the community about many of t= he details of that architecture:
there are other documents with differen= t theories and some people would claim that some of the things that are sai= d in some of the documents you have cited have not stood the test of time.<= br>Some of those principles interact with "Internet governance"; = many, including questions about who should be in charge of various resource= s once one determines that someone, or some combination of actors, actually= need to be, do not. The mailing lists you are using are appropriate for di= scussions of those issues although I think the case for cross-posting to in= ternetgovtech and architecture-discuss, much less the nethistory list, has = yet to be made.

But what I don't understand --and what is confusi= ng me more with each posting from you-- is why you are posting these notes = and
what you are trying to accomplish. Almost by definition, the
read= ers of these lists know they exist and are out there. Most such readers kno= w, or knew once, what the lists are supposed to be for. But almost everythi= ng I've read from you seems to be an explanation of the existence of an= Internet architecture and/ or an Internet governance topic together with t= he existence and availability of the lists.

Do you want something? Do= you intend to try to explain something to us that we don't know alread= y? If so, is that explanation likely to be actionable by the IETF or IAB an= d, if so, how. And, of course, what is it?

thanks,
john

--O= n Thursday, April 25, 2019 08:16 +0700 Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> wrote:=

Dear All,

The Internet architecture --the Internet= protocols and their
designs-- are in situations among which is about it= s possible
inplementations enabled by such a governance(s). That is supp= osedly a
matter of the Internet Governance suitable with what was everofficially published by the Internet Architecture Board related with
t= he release of = internetgovtech@iab.org mailing list (2013)

"to discuss topi= cs regarding the intersection of Internet governance
and IETF technical = work. In particular, this list will focus on issues
relating to Internet= governance and regulation, including the 2014 ITU
Plenipotentiary Confe= rence, and their potential to impact the future
of the Internet architec= ture".

https://iab.org/activities/internet-governance/

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Kamis, 25 April 2019, Gu= ntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
menulis:

Dear All,

D= . Thaler in his "Evolution of the IP Model" (RFC 6250) referring = IP
service model to section 2.2. of RFC 0791, RFC 1958, and section 2.1<= br>of RFC 4903 --while the document as a whole referring also to other
R= FCs.

There are also other historians and futurologs ever analysed the=
Internet architecture examplified by

RFC 3274 "The Rise of t= he Middle and the Future of End-to-End
Argument: Reflections on the Evol= ution of the Internet Architecture"
(Kempf, J. & R. Austen Eds.= , Network Working Group-IAB, 2004)

This document examined the develop= ment of end-to-end principles as it
had been applied by the Internet ove= r years.

https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3274

RFC 1827= "Toward The Future Internet Architecture" (Clark, D.
et all.,= Network Working Group, 1991)

This document represented an understand= ing that the Internet
architecture as "the grand plan behind the TC= P/IP protocol suite"
envisioned its possible evolution as there had= been increasing signs
of strains on the fundemental architecture mostly= stemming from the
continued growth of the Internet.

https://www.rfc-ed= itor.org/info/rfc1287

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

P= ada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
menulis:

Dear All,

The reasoning of "The Internet, Architecture= , Governance, Technical
Work, and Net History" I said above "I= ndividuals, or collective
individuals, are in an age of the
Internet.= ..": as it concerns with "concept", "discourse" an= d
"history" is supposedly inspired by my personal experiences = of
reading works on and by Michel Foucault, Gilles Deleuze and Felix
= Guattari.

To those have interests with the "supposed inspiration= " are pleased
to visit these links below

ht= tps://www.espacestemps.net/?s=3DFoucault&x=3D7&y=3D8

https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=3DDeleuz= e%2C+Guattari&x=3D0&y=3D0

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra<= /p>

Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
menulis:

Dear All,

The websites www.datatracker.ietf.org and www.rfc-editor.org are=
historians for the services of historical archives the provide.
Whil= e a personal historian may deserve to mention, especially on
the "I= nternet
Architecture":

D. Thaler documented aspects of Intern= et Protocol service model as
they evolved over time .... Some guidence f= or protocol designers an
implementers were also suggested...

"= ;RFC 6250: Evolution of IP Service Model" (IAB, May 2011)

https://www= .rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6250

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra<= /p>

Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
menulis:=

Dear All,

As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "= ;Internet Architecture"
to Internet protocols and their designs (me= ntioned in my message
April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to = mention "RFC 791: Internet
Protocol" (J. Postel, September 198= 1) and its histories -- those
obsolete and updates: which is about the n= ame/title "Internet
Protocol" they have...

https://www.rfc-edi= tor.org/info/rfc791

The RFC 791 is one of Official Internet = Protocol
Standards: Internet Standards --of which there are ones do not = use
terms "Internet Protocol" -- for examples "Transmissi= on Control
Protocol", "User Datagram Protocol", " Br= oadcasting Internet
Datagrams"...

https://www.rfc-editor.org/sta= ndards

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Selasa, 23 April= 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
<gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:

Dear All= ,

As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture"= ; to
Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message
Ap= ril 21st 2019): it looks "special" to mention "RFC 791:
I= nternet Protocol" (J.
Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- = those obsolete and
updates: which is about the name/title "Internet= Protocol" they
have....

https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc79= 1

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019= , Guntur Wiseno Putra
<gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:

Dear Hesham a= nd All,

There is a need for correction for the earlier message:

The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I
mi= ssed before-- was made to propose such an extension of
"Architectur= al Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the latter
considered comp= lexity (control) in relation with the Internet in
large scale...

<= a href=3D"https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt" target=3D"_blank">htt= ps://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt

It should be:

= The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I
mis= sed before-- was made to propose such an extension of
"Architectura= l Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the first
considered comple= xity (control) in relation with the Internet in
large scale...

https= ://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt

Regard,
Gintur Wise= no Putra

Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
<gsenopu@gmail.com>= menulis:

Dear Hesham and All,

The update "The= Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I
missed before-- was mad= e to propose such an extension of
"Architectural Principles of the = Internet"
(1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) inrelation with the Internet in large scale...

https://www.rfc-editor.o= rg/rfc/rfc3439.txt

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada= Senin, 22 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury <
Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com> m= enulis:

I think you meant RFC1958 which is updated by RFC= 3439.

Hesham

*From:* Architecture-discuss
[mailto:architecture-discuss-b ounces@ietf.org]= *On Behalf Of
*Guntur Wiseno Putra *Sent:* Monday, April 22, 2019 6:41 = AM
*To:* architecture-discuss@ietf.org; internetgovtech@iab.org;
nethistory@ietf.org
*Subject:= * [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance,
Technical Work and Ne= t History: A Speci

Dear All,

Of the question "What is the = Internet Architecture?"
mentioned in the earlier message:

Bri= an. E. Carpenter's text "RFC 1985: Architectural Principles
of = the Internet" mentioned about Internet protocols and their
design: = May this links helpful to get arrived there at related
archives ( as the= text did not use any online source but
suppposedly paper ones as refere= nces)...:

Here are menus "In= ternet Standard", "Official
Internet Protocol Standards"= , and "advanced search".

Regard,

Guntur Wiseno Putra<= /p>

Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
<gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:<= /p>

Dear All,

Individuals, or collectifs of individuals, are in an = age of
the Internet. It is such a presence may be approached and
sens= ed by many ways --even when one said that s/he had just
eat a food which= a receipt was gotten by communicating by the
Internet..

Among oth= ers there are presences of "the Internet
Architecture", "= Internet Governance and Technical Work" and
"Net History"= as they represent interest-based mailing lists.
How could one get arriv= ed into those matters (together) --such
a programmatic readership/learni= ng: as sources and concepts
have history and discources collectives/net.= .. ? Should we
imagine about information sources by making such a reader= ship
based on the linkage between the three...? Thus we may say
about= "The Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical
Works: a Net = History" (to say "A Net History in Terms of The
Internet Archi= tecture, Governance and Technical Work)...?
--there would be a discourse= map on the special readership
which is about a co-presence of mailing l= ists...? --as one may
use search engines of each mailing list for relate= d
interests...?

To make an engagement with the programme should we= go with
such tentative journeys considering parts of the special
rea= dership...?

For example:

By considering the reasoning above:

To the question on "What is the Internet Architecture?" we ma= y
refer to (archival) sources

"RFC 1958: Architectural Princi= ples of the Internet"

(Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996)

= https= ://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1958

(Note:)

It was a sn= apshot record of the principles of the Internet
Achitecture intended for= general guidance and general
interest...

It was updated by RFC 34= 39...

Both the concept "Internet Architecture" and the docu= ment RFC
1958 have history bringing readers to other relevant
sources= ... They supposedly also give suggestions to come to
broader or other co= nceptual discourses on "governance and
technical work"

R= egard,

Guntur Wiseno Putra

=

_______________________________________________
Architecture-= discuss mailing list
Architecture-discuss@ietf.org
https://= www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss

=20
--000000000000511a1705876e48f2-- From nobody Fri Apr 26 08:47:19 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84AC71203A4 for ; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 19:43:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=hopcount.ca Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17078ZmDFlcH for ; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 19:43:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x234.google.com (mail-lj1-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F3442120394 for ; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 19:43:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x234.google.com with SMTP id h21so1430217ljk.13 for ; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 19:43:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hopcount.ca; s=google; h=mime-version:from:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=jqdPVlPpBB/lQnqjF3Bz25+VZhAoVGFRknTsFQCDpNI=; b=KGJEYQZizDz4adqp9S6x3uhEDBmjRP1RpJHteTQy7fBfB4UFWeno4p428gFc6g0lqJ j8xrQTB7iEanD0qxcSEh2HBLWMOdByb6YBNeTVEO1l1qHD6jA2HRUg4sUearOL/mHfyH nXlC2iBQHBXD/85gcCHNPzGcC0rtsUwgo70t4= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=jqdPVlPpBB/lQnqjF3Bz25+VZhAoVGFRknTsFQCDpNI=; b=im61eSmPWKdPWa+3Kj++48TGkKT2ffzvg9CIY0tZaNIPJKRVuZCquGCoidC6s6HYTE f66uNyi0eLqWa4Tor3vXDEGhW9gd07UufhoCJ8qWm3IkXM9JXxWMpaUGTbd2rezIJ5F/ dHB3NAxMVeCSMN8HvArgnJ+obu0ecrI5lGPx5JGrpTiF79yTIWqUx9P6RHmBX5i44Y24 eoaRQiMqSgCKr6dflWMFMmjqxx50H7k3MUgTULmzwOmdPla1cvnr1JKAY3p9usdN26kG rzmHM5CXd1/HtMn+Ky5p2yfvGD2BdRi6X5oz6uKDDzFjpzYZKLWgF4vTLZScTqNxVo3b RIwQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUhRWEpQzQj+/orYVetdBYFd/VoycTIlHFzqVqNAjanFodjCCfZ rTFYOfF1Vm9MgOn57eqxk/+n1bv6CV8wlhBC62oPXw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwSgvXf4uvQPAZkKQRRaiDSdmKqAr2LRZ4qGBslMeA+qEMhnWNS4v9P8uWMedlHp3dt4Ofmed7//1CQgwsZDp8= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:2f06:: with SMTP id v6mr22887485ljv.139.1556246632117; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 19:43:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unknown named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 22:43:51 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Joe Abley In-Reply-To: References: <754E03CE4D0735B550B88448@PSB> Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 22:43:51 -0400 Message-ID: To: Guntur Wiseno Putra Cc: Hesham ElBakoury , John C Klensin , "internetgovtech@iab.org" , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" , "nethistory@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b0ccd0058765e737" Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 08:47:18 -0700 Subject: Re: [arch-d] [Nethistory] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 02:43:59 -0000 --000000000000b0ccd0058765e737 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Guntur, You are to be congratulated indeed. Not since the heyday of such practitioners as Dr Joe Baptista and Dean Anderson have I seen such a skilful exposition. Joe On Apr 25, 2019, at 06:23, Guntur Wiseno Putra wrote: Dear All John, Hesham and All, What are after such an "introductory" reading --such a grand image, such a grand map...? -on the Internet architecture and governance...? as we are trying to learn of those aspects by such reading with the help of a set of knowledges on concept, discourse and history...? Histories, historical stories, attempted above teach us: people struggled by technology. At least we have an "enthusiasm" for what will come up tomorrow, especially about our humanity and society regarding with possibilities of the Internet as a kind of communication platform --especially on aspects of it: architecture and governance... But, there are perhaps lacks with these analytical readings --those design and implementation-- being attempted... Here thus experts may come with their suggestions... Regard, Guntur Wiseno Putra Pada Kamis, 25 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury menulis: > I actually have the same question ... > > -----Original Message----- > From: John C Klensin [mailto:john-ietf@jck.com] > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2019 12:36 AM > To: Guntur Wiseno Putra > Cc: Hesham ElBakoury ; > internetgovtech@iab.org; architecture-discuss@ietf.org; > nethistory@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Internetgovtech] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, > Technical Work and Net History: A Speci > > Guntur, > > I've tried to following your multiple postings, but am getting more and > more confused. Yes, there are some broad principles that can be considered > together to constitute an "Internet architecture". Once one gets past > extremely broad principles and down to details, I doubt that there is > strong consensus in the community about many of the details of that > architecture: > there are other documents with different theories and some people would > claim that some of the things that are said in some of the documents you > have cited have not stood the test of time. > Some of those principles interact with "Internet governance"; many, > including questions about who should be in charge of various resources once > one determines that someone, or some combination of actors, actually need > to be, do not. The mailing lists you are using are appropriate for > discussions of those issues although I think the case for cross-posting to > internetgovtech and architecture-discuss, much less the nethistory list, > has yet to be made. > > But what I don't understand --and what is confusing me more with each > posting from you-- is why you are posting these notes and > what you are trying to accomplish. Almost by definition, the > readers of these lists know they exist and are out there. Most such > readers know, or knew once, what the lists are supposed to be for. But > almost everything I've read from you seems to be an explanation of the > existence of an Internet architecture and/ or an Internet governance topic > together with the existence and availability of the lists. > > Do you want something? Do you intend to try to explain something to us > that we don't know already? If so, is that explanation likely to be > actionable by the IETF or IAB and, if so, how. And, of course, what is it? > > thanks, > john > > > --On Thursday, April 25, 2019 08:16 +0700 Guntur Wiseno Putra < > gsenopu@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Dear All, > > > > The Internet architecture --the Internet protocols and their > > designs-- are in situations among which is about its possible > > inplementations enabled by such a governance(s). That is supposedly a > > matter of the Internet Governance suitable with what was ever > > officially published by the Internet Architecture Board related with > > the release of internetgovtech@iab.org mailing list (2013) > > > > "to discuss topics regarding the intersection of Internet governance > > and IETF technical work. In particular, this list will focus on issues > > relating to Internet governance and regulation, including the 2014 ITU > > Plenipotentiary Conference, and their potential to impact the future > > of the Internet architecture". > > > > https://iab.org/activities/internet-governance/ > > > > Regard, > > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > > > Pada Kamis, 25 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > > menulis: > > > >> Dear All, > >> > >> D. Thaler in his "Evolution of the IP Model" (RFC 6250) referring IP > >> service model to section 2.2. of RFC 0791, RFC 1958, and section 2..1 > >> of RFC 4903 --while the document as a whole referring also to other > >> RFCs. > >> > >> There are also other historians and futurologs ever analysed the > >> Internet architecture examplified by > >> > >> RFC 3274 "The Rise of the Middle and the Future of End-to-End > >> Argument: Reflections on the Evolution of the Internet Architecture" > >> (Kempf, J. & R. Austen Eds., Network Working Group-IAB, 2004) > >> > >> This document examined the development of end-to-end principles as it > >> had been applied by the Internet over years. > >> > >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3274 > >> > >> RFC 1827 "Toward The Future Internet Architecture" (Clark, D. > >> et all., Network Working Group, 1991) > >> > >> This document represented an understanding that the Internet > >> architecture as "the grand plan behind the TCP/IP protocol suite" > >> envisioned its possible evolution as there had been increasing signs > >> of strains on the fundemental architecture mostly stemming from the > >> continued growth of the Internet. > >> > >> > >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1287 > >> > >> Regard, > >> Guntur Wiseno Putra > >> > >> Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > >> menulis: > >> > >>> Dear All, > >>> > >>> The reasoning of "The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical > >>> Work, and Net History" I said above "Individuals, or collective > >>> individuals, are in an age of the > >>> Internet...": as it concerns with "concept", "discourse" and > >>> "history" is supposedly inspired by my personal experiences of > >>> reading works on and by Michel Foucault, Gilles Deleuze and Felix > >>> Guattari. > >>> > >>> To those have interests with the "supposed inspiration" are pleased > >>> to visit these links below > >>> > >>> > >>> https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=Foucault&x=7&y=8 > >>> > >>> https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=Deleuze%2C+Guattari&x=0&y=0 > >>> > >>> > >>> Regard, > >>> Guntur Wiseno Putra > >>> > >>> Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > >>> menulis: > >>> > >>>> Dear All, > >>>> > >>>> The websites www.datatracker.ietf.org and www.rfc-editor.org are > >>>> historians for the services of historical archives the provide. > >>>> While a personal historian may deserve to mention, especially on > >>>> the "Internet > >>>> Architecture": > >>>> > >>>> D. Thaler documented aspects of Internet Protocol service model as > >>>> they evolved over time .... Some guidence for protocol designers an > >>>> implementers were also suggested... > >>>> > >>>> "RFC 6250: Evolution of IP Service Model" (IAB, May 2011) > >>>> > >>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6250 > >>>> > >>>> Regard, > >>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra > >>>> > >>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > >>>> menulis: > >>>> > >>>>> Dear All, > >>>>> > >>>>> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture" > >>>>> to Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message > >>>>> April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to mention "RFC 791: Internet > >>>>> Protocol" (J. Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- those > >>>>> obsolete and updates: which is about the name/title "Internet > >>>>> Protocol" they have... > >>>>> > >>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791 > >>>>> > >>>>> The RFC 791 is one of Official Internet Protocol > >>>>> Standards: Internet Standards --of which there are ones do not use > >>>>> terms "Internet Protocol" -- for examples "Transmission Control > >>>>> Protocol", "User Datagram Protocol", " Broadcasting Internet > >>>>> Datagrams"... > >>>>> > >>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards > >>>>> > >>>>> Regard, > >>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra > >>>>> > >>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > >>>>> > menulis: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Dear All, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture" to > >>>>>> Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message > >>>>>> April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to mention "RFC 791: > >>>>>> Internet Protocol" (J. > >>>>>> Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- those obsolete and > >>>>>> updates: which is about the name/title "Internet Protocol" they > >>>>>> have.... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Regard, > >>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > >>>>>> menulis: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Dear Hesham and All, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> There is a need for correction for the earlier message: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I > >>>>>>> missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of > >>>>>>> "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the latter > >>>>>>> considered complexity (control) in relation with the Internet in > >>>>>>> large scale... > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> It should be: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I > >>>>>>> missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of > >>>>>>> "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the first > >>>>>>> considered complexity (control) in relation with the Internet in > >>>>>>> large scale... > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Regard, > >>>>>>> Gintur Wiseno Putra > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > >>>>>>> menulis: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Dear Hesham and All, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I > >>>>>>>> missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of > >>>>>>>> "Architectural Principles of the Internet" > >>>>>>>> (1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) in > >>>>>>>> relation with the Internet in large scale.... > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Regard, > >>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury < > >>>>>>>> Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com> menulis: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I think you meant RFC1958 which is updated by RFC3439. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Hesham > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> *From:* Architecture-discuss > >>>>>>>>> [mailto:architecture-discuss-b ounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of > >>>>>>>>> *Guntur Wiseno Putra *Sent:* Monday, April 22, 2019 6:41 AM > >>>>>>>>> *To:* architecture-discuss@ietf.org; internetgovtech@iab.org; > >>>>>>>>> nethistory@ietf.org > >>>>>>>>> *Subject:* [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, > >>>>>>>>> Technical Work and Net History: A Speci > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Dear All, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Of the question "What is the Internet Architecture?" > >>>>>>>>> mentioned in the earlier message: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Brian. E. Carpenter's text "RFC 1985: Architectural Principles > >>>>>>>>> of the Internet" mentioned about Internet protocols and their > >>>>>>>>> design: May this links helpful to get arrived there at related > >>>>>>>>> archives ( as the text did not use any online source but > >>>>>>>>> suppposedly paper ones as references)....: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search?name= > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> - https://www.rfc-editor.org/ > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Here are menus "Internet Standard", "Official > >>>>>>>>> Internet Protocol Standards", and "advanced search". > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Regard, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > >>>>>>>>> menulis: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Dear All, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Individuals, or collectifs of individuals, are in an age of > >>>>>>>>> the Internet. It is such a presence may be approached and > >>>>>>>>> sensed by many ways --even when one said that s/he had just > >>>>>>>>> eat a food which a receipt was gotten by communicating by the > >>>>>>>>> Internet.. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Among others there are presences of "the Internet > >>>>>>>>> Architecture", "Internet Governance and Technical Work" and > >>>>>>>>> "Net History" as they represent interest-based mailing lists. > >>>>>>>>> How could one get arrived into those matters (together) --such > >>>>>>>>> a programmatic readership/learning: as sources and concepts > >>>>>>>>> have history and discources collectives/net... ? Should we > >>>>>>>>> imagine about information sources by making such a readership > >>>>>>>>> based on the linkage between the three....? Thus we may say > >>>>>>>>> about "The Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical > >>>>>>>>> Works: a Net History" (to say "A Net History in Terms of The > >>>>>>>>> Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical Work)...? > >>>>>>>>> --there would be a discourse map on the special readership > >>>>>>>>> which is about a co-presence of mailing lists...? --as one may > >>>>>>>>> use search engines of each mailing list for related > >>>>>>>>> interests...? > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> To make an engagement with the programme should we go with > >>>>>>>>> such tentative journeys considering parts of the special > >>>>>>>>> readership...? > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> For example: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> By considering the reasoning above: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> To the question on "What is the Internet Architecture?" we may > >>>>>>>>> refer to (archival) sources > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> "RFC 1958: Architectural Principles of the Internet" > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> (Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996) > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1958 > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> (Note:) > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> It was a snapshot record of the principles of the Internet > >>>>>>>>> Achitecture intended for general guidance and general > >>>>>>>>> interest... > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> It was updated by RFC 3439... > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Both the concept "Internet Architecture" and the document RFC > >>>>>>>>> 1958 have history bringing readers to other relevant > >>>>>>>>> sources... They supposedly also give suggestions to come to > >>>>>>>>> broader or other conceptual discourses on "governance and > >>>>>>>>> technical work" > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Regard, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > _______________________________________________ Nethistory mailing list Nethistory@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nethistory --000000000000b0ccd0058765e737 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Guntur,

You are to be congratulated indeed. Not= since the heyday of such practitioners as Dr Joe Baptista and Dean Anderso= n have I seen such a skilful exposition.


Joe

On = Apr 25, 2019, at 06:23, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear All John, Hesham and All,

<= br>
What are after such an "introductory" reading --suc= h a grand image, such a grand map...? -on the Internet architecture and gov= ernance...?
as we are trying to learn of those aspects by such re= ading with the help of a set of knowledges on concept, discourse and histor= y...?

Histories, historical stories, attempted above= teach us: people struggled by technology. At least we have an "enthus= iasm" for what will come up tomorrow, especially about our humanity an= d society regarding with possibilities of the Internet as a kind of communi= cation platform --especially on aspects of it: architecture and governance.= ..

But, there are perhaps lacks with these analyti= cal readings --those design and implementation-- being attempted... Here th= us experts may come with their suggestions...


=


Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Pu= tra

Pada Kamis, 25 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com> menulis:=
I actually have the same question ...
-----Original Message-----
From: John C Klensin [mailto:john-ietf= @jck.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2019 12:36 AM
To: Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gm= ail.com>
Cc: Hesham ElBakoury <Hes= ham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>; internetgovtech@iab.org; architecture-discuss@ietf.org; nethistory@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Internetgovtech] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Tech= nical Work and Net History: A Speci

Guntur,

I've tried to following your multiple postings, but am getting more and= more confused.=C2=A0 Yes, there are some broad principles that can be cons= idered together to constitute an "Internet architecture".=C2=A0 O= nce one gets past extremely broad principles and down to details, I doubt t= hat there is strong consensus in the community about many of the details of= that architecture:
there are other documents with different theories and some people would cla= im that some of the things that are said in some of the documents you have = cited have not stood the test of time.
Some of those principles interact with "Internet governance"; man= y, including questions about who should be in charge of various resources o= nce one determines that someone, or some combination of actors, actually ne= ed to be, do not.=C2=A0 The mailing lists you are using are appropriate for= discussions of those issues although I think the case for cross-posting to= internetgovtech and architecture-discuss, much less the nethistory list, h= as yet to be made.

But what I don't understand --and what is confusing me more with each p= osting from you-- is why you are posting these notes and
what you are trying to accomplish.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Almost by definition, the readers of these lists know they exist and are out there.=C2=A0 Most such r= eaders know, or knew once, what the lists are supposed to be for.=C2=A0 But= almost everything I've read from you seems to be an explanation of the= existence of an Internet architecture and/ or an Internet governance topic= together with the existence and availability of the lists.=C2=A0

Do you want something?=C2=A0 Do you intend to try to explain something to u= s that we don't know already?=C2=A0 If so, is that explanation likely t= o be actionable by the IETF or IAB and, if so, how.=C2=A0 And, of course, w= hat is it?

thanks,
=C2=A0 john


--On Thursday, April 25, 2019 08:16 +0700 Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear All,
>
> The Internet architecture --the Internet protocols and their
> designs-- are in situations among which is about its possible
> inplementations enabled by such a governance(s). That is supposedly a =
> matter of the Internet Governance suitable with what was ever
> officially published by the Internet Architecture Board related with <= br> > the release of internetgovt= ech@iab.org mailing list (2013)
>
> "to discuss topics regarding the intersection of Internet governa= nce
> and IETF technical work. In particular, this list will focus on issues=
> relating to Internet governance and regulation, including the 2014 ITU=
> Plenipotentiary Conference, and their potential to impact the future <= br> > of the Internet architecture".
>
> https://iab.org/activities/internet-governance/
>
> Regard,
> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>
> Pada Kamis, 25 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
> menulis:
>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> D. Thaler in his "Evolution of the IP Model" (RFC 6250) = referring IP
>> service model to section 2.2. of RFC 0791, RFC 1958, and section 2= ..1
>> of RFC 4903 --while the document as a whole referring also to othe= r
>> RFCs.
>>
>> There are also other historians and futurologs ever analysed the <= br> >> Internet architecture examplified by
>>
>> RFC 3274 "The Rise of the Middle and the Future of End-to-End=
>> Argument: Reflections on the Evolution of the Internet Architectur= e"
>> (Kempf, J.=C2=A0 & R. Austen Eds., Network Working Group-IAB, = 2004)
>>
>> This document examined the development of end-to-end principles as= it
>> had been applied by the Internet over years.
>>
>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3274
>>
>> RFC 1827 "Toward The Future Internet Architecture" (Clar= k, D.
>> et all., Network Working Group, 1991)
>>
>> This document represented an understanding that the Internet
>> architecture as "the grand plan behind the TCP/IP protocol su= ite"
>> envisioned its possible evolution as there had been increasing sig= ns
>> of strains on the fundemental architecture mostly stemming from th= e
>> continued growth of the Internet.
>>
>>
>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1287
>>
>> Regard,
>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>
>> Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
>> menulis:
>>
>>> Dear All,
>>>
>>> The reasoning of "The Internet, Architecture, Governance,= Technical
>>> Work, and Net History" I said above "Individuals, or= collective
>>> individuals, are in an age of the
>>> Internet...": as it concerns with "concept", &q= uot;discourse" and
>>> "history" is supposedly inspired by my personal expe= riences of
>>> reading works on and by Michel Foucault, Gilles Deleuze and Fe= lix
>>> Guattari.
>>>
>>> To those have interests with the "supposed inspiration&qu= ot; are pleased
>>> to visit these links below
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=3DFouca= ult&x=3D7&y=3D8
>>>
>>> https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=3DDeleuze%2C+Guattari&x=3D0&y=3D0
>>>
>>>
>>> Regard,
>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>
>>> Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
>>> menulis:
>>>
>>>> Dear All,
>>>>
>>>> The websites www.datatracker.ietf.org and www.rfc-editor.org are
>>>> historians for the services of historical archives the pro= vide.
>>>> While a personal historian may deserve to mention, especia= lly on
>>>> the "Internet
>>>> Architecture":
>>>>
>>>> D. Thaler documented aspects of Internet Protocol service = model as
>>>> they evolved over time .... Some guidence for protocol des= igners an
>>>> implementers were also suggested...
>>>>
>>>> "RFC 6250: Evolution of IP Service Model" (IAB, = May 2011)
>>>>
>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6250
>>>>
>>>> Regard,
>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>
>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
>>>> menulis:
>>>>
>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>
>>>>> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Arch= itecture"
>>>>> to Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in = my message
>>>>> April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to ment= ion "RFC 791: Internet
>>>>> Protocol" (J. Postel, September 1981) and its his= tories -- those
>>>>> obsolete and updates: which is about the name/title &q= uot;Internet
>>>>> Protocol" they have...
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791
>>>>>
>>>>> The RFC 791 is one of Official Internet Protocol
>>>>> Standards: Internet Standards --of which there are one= s do not use
>>>>> terms "Internet Protocol" -- for examples &q= uot;Transmission Control
>>>>> Protocol", "User Datagram Protocol", &q= uot; Broadcasting Internet
>>>>> Datagrams"...
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards
>>>>>
>>>>> Regard,
>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>>
>>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>> <gsenopu@gmail= ..com> menulis:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet = Architecture" to
>>>>>> Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in= my message
>>>>>> April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to = mention "RFC 791:
>>>>>> Internet Protocol" (J.
>>>>>> Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- those= obsolete and
>>>>>> updates: which is about the name/title "Inter= net Protocol" they
>>>>>> have....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regard,
>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>> <gsenopu@g= mail.com> menulis:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Hesham and All,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is a need for correction for the earlier= message:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines&= quot; (2002) --which I
>>>>>>> missed before-- was made to propose such an ex= tension of
>>>>>>> "Architectural Principles of the Internet= " (1996) as the latter
>>>>>>> considered complexity (control) in relation wi= th the Internet in
>>>>>>> large scale...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt<= /a>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It should be:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines&= quot; (2002) --which I
>>>>>>> missed before-- was made to propose such an ex= tension of
>>>>>>> "Architectural Principles of the Internet= " (1996) as the first
>>>>>>> considered complexity (control) in relation wi= th the Internet in
>>>>>>> large scale...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt<= /a>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regard,
>>>>>>> Gintur Wiseno Putra
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putr= a
>>>>>>> <gseno= pu@gmail.com> menulis:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dear Hesham and All,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guideli= nes" (2002) --which I
>>>>>>>> missed before-- was made to propose such a= n extension of
>>>>>>>> "Architectural Principles of the Inte= rnet"
>>>>>>>> (1996) as the latter considered complexity= (control) in
>>>>>>>> relation with the Internet in large scale.= ...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.= txt
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regard,
>>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Hesham ElBakour= y <
>>>>>>>> Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com> menulis:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think you meant RFC1958 which is upd= ated by RFC3439.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hesham
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *From:* Architecture-discuss
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:architecture-discuss-b o= unces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of
>>>>>>>>> *Guntur Wiseno Putra *Sent:* Monday, A= pril 22, 2019 6:41 AM
>>>>>>>>> *To:* architecture-discuss@ietf.org; internetgovtech@iab.org;
>>>>>>>>> nethistory@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* [arch-d] The Internet, Arch= itecture, Governance,
>>>>>>>>> Technical Work and Net History: A Spec= i
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Of the question "What is the Inte= rnet Architecture?"
>>>>>>>>> mentioned in the earlier message:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Brian. E. Carpenter's text "R= FC 1985: Architectural Principles
>>>>>>>>> of the Internet" mentioned about = Internet protocols and their
>>>>>>>>> design: May this links helpful to get = arrived there at related
>>>>>>>>> archives ( as the text did not use any= online source but
>>>>>>>>> suppposedly paper ones as references).= ...:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search?name=3D
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> - https://www.rfc-editor.org/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Here are=C2=A0 menus "= ;Internet Standard", "Official
>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Internet Protocol Standard= s", and "advanced search".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regard,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wise= no Putra
>>>>>>>>> <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Individuals, or collectifs of individu= als, are in an age of
>>>>>>>>> the Internet. It is such a presence ma= y be approached and
>>>>>>>>> sensed by many ways --even when one sa= id that s/he had just
>>>>>>>>> eat a food which a receipt was gotten = by communicating by the
>>>>>>>>> Internet..
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Among others there are presences of &q= uot;the Internet
>>>>>>>>> Architecture", "Internet Gov= ernance and Technical Work" and
>>>>>>>>> "Net History" as they repres= ent interest-based mailing lists.
>>>>>>>>> How could one get arrived into those m= atters (together) --such
>>>>>>>>> a programmatic readership/learning: as= sources and concepts
>>>>>>>>> have history and discources collective= s/net... ? Should we
>>>>>>>>> imagine about information sources by m= aking such a readership
>>>>>>>>> based on the linkage between the three= ....? Thus we may say
>>>>>>>>> about "The Internet Architecture,= Governance and Technical
>>>>>>>>> Works: a Net History" (to say &qu= ot;A Net History in Terms of The
>>>>>>>>> Internet Architecture, Governance and = Technical Work)...?
>>>>>>>>> --there would be a discourse map on th= e special readership
>>>>>>>>> which is about a co-presence of mailin= g lists...? --as one may
>>>>>>>>> use search engines of each mailing lis= t for related
>>>>>>>>> interests...?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To make an engagement with the program= me should we go with
>>>>>>>>> such tentative journeys considering pa= rts of the special
>>>>>>>>> readership...?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For example:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> By considering the reasoning above: >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To the question on "What is the I= nternet Architecture?" we may
>>>>>>>>> refer to (archival) sources
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "RFC 1958: Architectural Principl= es of the Internet"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996) >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc195= 8
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (Note:)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It was a snapshot record of the princi= ples of the Internet
>>>>>>>>> Achitecture intended for general guida= nce and general
>>>>>>>>> interest...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It was updated by RFC 3439...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Both the concept "Internet Archit= ecture" and the document RFC
>>>>>>>>> 1958 have history bringing readers to = other relevant
>>>>>>>>> sources... They supposedly also give s= uggestions to come to
>>>>>>>>> broader or other conceptual discourses= on "governance and
>>>>>>>>> technical work"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regard,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>




_______= ________________________________________
Nethistory mailing= list
Nethistory@iet= f.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nethistory
=
--000000000000b0ccd0058765e737-- From nobody Fri Apr 26 08:47:27 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17575120403; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 19:54:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3sZdwlLFbIF2; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 19:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x32a.google.com (mail-ot1-x32a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F3FE31203B8; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 19:54:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x32a.google.com with SMTP id g8so389731otl.8; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 19:54:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=BLzvYiL/5rAfLiRuXXv81s6UOdP+2nUTPMP6hkcSngM=; b=i/8kJsPfsGbbfA1LzjIWB4T1nbn/F0huUu1oPxrVJkdCaonnt6VDD35QvX3/sxC+uR BCKETd/zc2/Ay9HVqsx68dOzHxKohfl367fXvyTqEEDelukGOv/RsNBW8SAjRZj95/QQ L4X3vdsbIy0TYN7X89Xp9X4LSvEhCNEdlDFO9hy2inSoYvr04+Wpb8A5qLO2KpOEwt4K NG17nL07csuYgO13lOBwMZaz76cRUFCtLFcpSWP2DLHuEMJCznyZeodts4s34CUvxGK0 OsYKrX0HbCwAM0FixIGFsVYV0icGh7CyC3v7DjMU+ixDeFy50yjRw4ppc7+m7A8aVopv ohdg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=BLzvYiL/5rAfLiRuXXv81s6UOdP+2nUTPMP6hkcSngM=; b=qqyDXd5BAT6qnncd3J30phV0Q5CbqROjjdkI6WmcIRYKTzs6H+F10LIo8SEAVguXH0 4vdM6vjkljsio0FWXIqxfXMTDUIJ5uo9lRCNFAjoqW4wGUYl8tAj7/G5j0tvReFb1b+B VBqVfa3EB8+riFBc6+SaqduJslwoeYmmmSTbxR7qfaa+jT9jXVgOjQmmo5RsxpbpPZFH aVBAq5lyXBJIh5zarFFk5yS4LaE07rW2A0Eh5II2D3Szq9bRRJDSFDKOZU3cHtJ44T4A bAAzOeAozKQ1NyYYDT4seGhRTFcdpWwylQo1L3of3ufZzA3BwnPcOCdijwi7pR2Fulz9 +e7w== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXgv3S9sltooIfJHlhycCCHlGUqGN9r6BKuQZLfUjMY7gDLvbYR 1S5eDNOTc3O8jFCaM3ZhoxAyAkBYNI0KGTcyAh8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqw+3/Db7nRGm46DqCdXAN9i5gHI19Htcd4YAGmOkvx1rBCb//01VzOAhjEngMurDllDir+mx0WEgSePpw5AGYo= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:4d0b:: with SMTP id n11mr24448412otf.98.1556247255241; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 19:54:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a9d:2065:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 19:54:14 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <754E03CE4D0735B550B88448@PSB> From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 09:54:14 +0700 Message-ID: To: Joe Abley Cc: Hesham ElBakoury , John C Klensin , "internetgovtech@iab.org" , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" , "nethistory@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d4d6540587660ca1" Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 08:47:18 -0700 Subject: Re: [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 02:54:22 -0000 --000000000000d4d6540587660ca1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear Joe and All, The expostition I tried was about a learning... Here is a place of concerned people... Regard, Guntur Wiseno Putra Pada Jumat, 26 April 2019, Joe Abley menulis: > Guntur, > > You are to be congratulated indeed. Not since the heyday of such > practitioners as Dr Joe Baptista and Dean Anderson have I seen such a > skilful exposition. > > > Joe > > On Apr 25, 2019, at 06:23, Guntur Wiseno Putra wrote: > > Dear All John, Hesham and All, > > > What are after such an "introductory" reading --such a grand image, such a > grand map...? -on the Internet architecture and governance...? > as we are trying to learn of those aspects by such reading with the help > of a set of knowledges on concept, discourse and history...? > > Histories, historical stories, attempted above teach us: people struggled > by technology. At least we have an "enthusiasm" for what will come up > tomorrow, especially about our humanity and society regarding with > possibilities of the Internet as a kind of communication platform > --especially on aspects of it: architecture and governance... > > But, there are perhaps lacks with these analytical readings --those design > and implementation-- being attempted... Here thus experts may come with > their suggestions... > > > > > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > Pada Kamis, 25 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury > menulis: > >> I actually have the same question ... >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: John C Klensin [mailto:john-ietf@jck.com] >> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2019 12:36 AM >> To: Guntur Wiseno Putra >> Cc: Hesham ElBakoury ; >> internetgovtech@iab.org; architecture-discuss@ietf.org; >> nethistory@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Internetgovtech] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, >> Technical Work and Net History: A Speci >> >> Guntur, >> >> I've tried to following your multiple postings, but am getting more and >> more confused. Yes, there are some broad principles that can be considered >> together to constitute an "Internet architecture". Once one gets past >> extremely broad principles and down to details, I doubt that there is >> strong consensus in the community about many of the details of that >> architecture: >> there are other documents with different theories and some people would >> claim that some of the things that are said in some of the documents you >> have cited have not stood the test of time. >> Some of those principles interact with "Internet governance"; many, >> including questions about who should be in charge of various resources once >> one determines that someone, or some combination of actors, actually need >> to be, do not. The mailing lists you are using are appropriate for >> discussions of those issues although I think the case for cross-posting to >> internetgovtech and architecture-discuss, much less the nethistory list, >> has yet to be made. >> >> But what I don't understand --and what is confusing me more with each >> posting from you-- is why you are posting these notes and >> what you are trying to accomplish. Almost by definition, the >> readers of these lists know they exist and are out there. Most such >> readers know, or knew once, what the lists are supposed to be for. But >> almost everything I've read from you seems to be an explanation of the >> existence of an Internet architecture and/ or an Internet governance topic >> together with the existence and availability of the lists. >> >> Do you want something? Do you intend to try to explain something to us >> that we don't know already? If so, is that explanation likely to be >> actionable by the IETF or IAB and, if so, how. And, of course, what is it? >> >> thanks, >> john >> >> >> --On Thursday, April 25, 2019 08:16 +0700 Guntur Wiseno Putra < >> gsenopu@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > Dear All, >> > >> > The Internet architecture --the Internet protocols and their >> > designs-- are in situations among which is about its possible >> > inplementations enabled by such a governance(s). That is supposedly a >> > matter of the Internet Governance suitable with what was ever >> > officially published by the Internet Architecture Board related with >> > the release of internetgovtech@iab.org mailing list (2013) >> > >> > "to discuss topics regarding the intersection of Internet governance >> > and IETF technical work. In particular, this list will focus on issues >> > relating to Internet governance and regulation, including the 2014 ITU >> > Plenipotentiary Conference, and their potential to impact the future >> > of the Internet architecture". >> > >> > https://iab.org/activities/internet-governance/ >> > >> > Regard, >> > Guntur Wiseno Putra >> > >> > Pada Kamis, 25 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >> > menulis: >> > >> >> Dear All, >> >> >> >> D. Thaler in his "Evolution of the IP Model" (RFC 6250) referring IP >> >> service model to section 2.2. of RFC 0791, RFC 1958, and section 2..1 >> >> of RFC 4903 --while the document as a whole referring also to other >> >> RFCs. >> >> >> >> There are also other historians and futurologs ever analysed the >> >> Internet architecture examplified by >> >> >> >> RFC 3274 "The Rise of the Middle and the Future of End-to-End >> >> Argument: Reflections on the Evolution of the Internet Architecture" >> >> (Kempf, J. & R. Austen Eds., Network Working Group-IAB, 2004) >> >> >> >> This document examined the development of end-to-end principles as it >> >> had been applied by the Internet over years. >> >> >> >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3274 >> >> >> >> RFC 1827 "Toward The Future Internet Architecture" (Clark, D. >> >> et all., Network Working Group, 1991) >> >> >> >> This document represented an understanding that the Internet >> >> architecture as "the grand plan behind the TCP/IP protocol suite" >> >> envisioned its possible evolution as there had been increasing signs >> >> of strains on the fundemental architecture mostly stemming from the >> >> continued growth of the Internet. >> >> >> >> >> >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1287 >> >> >> >> Regard, >> >> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >> >> >> Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >> menulis: >> >> >> >>> Dear All, >> >>> >> >>> The reasoning of "The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical >> >>> Work, and Net History" I said above "Individuals, or collective >> >>> individuals, are in an age of the >> >>> Internet...": as it concerns with "concept", "discourse" and >> >>> "history" is supposedly inspired by my personal experiences of >> >>> reading works on and by Michel Foucault, Gilles Deleuze and Felix >> >>> Guattari. >> >>> >> >>> To those have interests with the "supposed inspiration" are pleased >> >>> to visit these links below >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=Foucault&x=7&y=8 >> >>> >> >>> https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=Deleuze%2C+Guattari&x=0&y=0 >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Regard, >> >>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >>> >> >>> Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >>> menulis: >> >>> >> >>>> Dear All, >> >>>> >> >>>> The websites www.datatracker.ietf.org and www.rfc-editor.org are >> >>>> historians for the services of historical archives the provide. >> >>>> While a personal historian may deserve to mention, especially on >> >>>> the "Internet >> >>>> Architecture": >> >>>> >> >>>> D. Thaler documented aspects of Internet Protocol service model as >> >>>> they evolved over time .... Some guidence for protocol designers an >> >>>> implementers were also suggested... >> >>>> >> >>>> "RFC 6250: Evolution of IP Service Model" (IAB, May 2011) >> >>>> >> >>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6250 >> >>>> >> >>>> Regard, >> >>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >>>> >> >>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >>>> menulis: >> >>>> >> >>>>> Dear All, >> >>>>> >> >>>>> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture" >> >>>>> to Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message >> >>>>> April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to mention "RFC 791: Internet >> >>>>> Protocol" (J. Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- those >> >>>>> obsolete and updates: which is about the name/title "Internet >> >>>>> Protocol" they have... >> >>>>> >> >>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791 >> >>>>> >> >>>>> The RFC 791 is one of Official Internet Protocol >> >>>>> Standards: Internet Standards --of which there are ones do not use >> >>>>> terms "Internet Protocol" -- for examples "Transmission Control >> >>>>> Protocol", "User Datagram Protocol", " Broadcasting Internet >> >>>>> Datagrams"... >> >>>>> >> >>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Regard, >> >>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >>>>> > menulis: >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> Dear All, >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture" to >> >>>>>> Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message >> >>>>>> April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to mention "RFC 791: >> >>>>>> Internet Protocol" (J. >> >>>>>> Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- those obsolete and >> >>>>>> updates: which is about the name/title "Internet Protocol" they >> >>>>>> have.... >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791 >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Regard, >> >>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >>>>>> menulis: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Dear Hesham and All, >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> There is a need for correction for the earlier message: >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I >> >>>>>>> missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of >> >>>>>>> "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the latter >> >>>>>>> considered complexity (control) in relation with the Internet in >> >>>>>>> large scale... >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> It should be: >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I >> >>>>>>> missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of >> >>>>>>> "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the first >> >>>>>>> considered complexity (control) in relation with the Internet in >> >>>>>>> large scale... >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Regard, >> >>>>>>> Gintur Wiseno Putra >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >>>>>>> menulis: >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Dear Hesham and All, >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I >> >>>>>>>> missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of >> >>>>>>>> "Architectural Principles of the Internet" >> >>>>>>>> (1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) in >> >>>>>>>> relation with the Internet in large scale.... >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Regard, >> >>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury < >> >>>>>>>> Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com> menulis: >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> I think you meant RFC1958 which is updated by RFC3439. >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Hesham >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> *From:* Architecture-discuss >> >>>>>>>>> [mailto:architecture-discuss-b ounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of >> >>>>>>>>> *Guntur Wiseno Putra *Sent:* Monday, April 22, 2019 6:41 AM >> >>>>>>>>> *To:* architecture-discuss@ietf.org; internetgovtech@iab.org; >> >>>>>>>>> nethistory@ietf.org >> >>>>>>>>> *Subject:* [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, >> >>>>>>>>> Technical Work and Net History: A Speci >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Dear All, >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Of the question "What is the Internet Architecture?" >> >>>>>>>>> mentioned in the earlier message: >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Brian. E. Carpenter's text "RFC 1985: Architectural Principles >> >>>>>>>>> of the Internet" mentioned about Internet protocols and their >> >>>>>>>>> design: May this links helpful to get arrived there at related >> >>>>>>>>> archives ( as the text did not use any online source but >> >>>>>>>>> suppposedly paper ones as references)....: >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search?name= >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> - https://www.rfc-editor.org/ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Here are menus "Internet Standard", "Official >> >>>>>>>>> Internet Protocol Standards", and "advanced search". >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Regard, >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >>>>>>>>> menulis: >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Dear All, >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Individuals, or collectifs of individuals, are in an age of >> >>>>>>>>> the Internet. It is such a presence may be approached and >> >>>>>>>>> sensed by many ways --even when one said that s/he had just >> >>>>>>>>> eat a food which a receipt was gotten by communicating by the >> >>>>>>>>> Internet.. >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Among others there are presences of "the Internet >> >>>>>>>>> Architecture", "Internet Governance and Technical Work" and >> >>>>>>>>> "Net History" as they represent interest-based mailing lists. >> >>>>>>>>> How could one get arrived into those matters (together) --such >> >>>>>>>>> a programmatic readership/learning: as sources and concepts >> >>>>>>>>> have history and discources collectives/net... ? Should we >> >>>>>>>>> imagine about information sources by making such a readership >> >>>>>>>>> based on the linkage between the three....? Thus we may say >> >>>>>>>>> about "The Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical >> >>>>>>>>> Works: a Net History" (to say "A Net History in Terms of The >> >>>>>>>>> Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical Work)...? >> >>>>>>>>> --there would be a discourse map on the special readership >> >>>>>>>>> which is about a co-presence of mailing lists...? --as one may >> >>>>>>>>> use search engines of each mailing list for related >> >>>>>>>>> interests...? >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> To make an engagement with the programme should we go with >> >>>>>>>>> such tentative journeys considering parts of the special >> >>>>>>>>> readership...? >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> For example: >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> By considering the reasoning above: >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> To the question on "What is the Internet Architecture?" we may >> >>>>>>>>> refer to (archival) sources >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> "RFC 1958: Architectural Principles of the Internet" >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> (Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996) >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1958 >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> (Note:) >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> It was a snapshot record of the principles of the Internet >> >>>>>>>>> Achitecture intended for general guidance and general >> >>>>>>>>> interest... >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> It was updated by RFC 3439... >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Both the concept "Internet Architecture" and the document RFC >> >>>>>>>>> 1958 have history bringing readers to other relevant >> >>>>>>>>> sources... They supposedly also give suggestions to come to >> >>>>>>>>> broader or other conceptual discourses on "governance and >> >>>>>>>>> technical work" >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Regard, >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > Nethistory mailing list > Nethistory@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nethistory > > --000000000000d4d6540587660ca1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Joe and All,

The expostition I tried was about a le= arning... Here is a place of concerned people...

<= br>
Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Jumat, 26 A= pril 2019, Joe Abley <jabley@hopco= unt.ca> menulis:
Guntur,

You are to be congratulated indeed. Not since the heyday of such practitio= ners as Dr Joe Baptista and Dean Anderson have I seen such a skilful exposi= tion.


Joe

On Apr 25, 2019, at 06:23, Guntur Wi= seno Putra <gseno= pu@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear All John, Hesham and All,


W= hat are after such an "introductory" reading --such a grand image= , such a grand map...? -on the Internet architecture and governance...?
as we are trying to learn of those aspects by such reading with the = help of a set of knowledges on concept, discourse and history...?
<= br>
Histories, historical stories, attempted above teach us: peop= le struggled by technology. At least we have an "enthusiasm" for = what will come up tomorrow, especially about our humanity and society regar= ding with possibilities of the Internet as a kind of communication platform= --especially on aspects of it: architecture and governance...
But, there are perhaps lacks with these analytical readings --= those design and implementation-- being attempted... Here thus experts may = come with their suggestions...



=

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada= Kamis, 25 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com> menul= is:
I actually have the same question ...=

-----Original Message-----
From: John C Klensin [mailto:john-ietf@jck.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2019 12:36 AM
To: Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
Cc: Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>; internetgovtech@iab.org; architecture-di= scuss@ietf.org; nethistory@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Internetgovtech] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Tech= nical Work and Net History: A Speci

Guntur,

I've tried to following your multiple postings, but am getting more and= more confused.=C2=A0 Yes, there are some broad principles that can be cons= idered together to constitute an "Internet architecture".=C2=A0 O= nce one gets past extremely broad principles and down to details, I doubt t= hat there is strong consensus in the community about many of the details of= that architecture:
there are other documents with different theories and some people would cla= im that some of the things that are said in some of the documents you have = cited have not stood the test of time.
Some of those principles interact with "Internet governance"; man= y, including questions about who should be in charge of various resources o= nce one determines that someone, or some combination of actors, actually ne= ed to be, do not.=C2=A0 The mailing lists you are using are appropriate for= discussions of those issues although I think the case for cross-posting to= internetgovtech and architecture-discuss, much less the nethistory list, h= as yet to be made.

But what I don't understand --and what is confusing me more with each p= osting from you-- is why you are posting these notes and
what you are trying to accomplish.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Almost by definition, the readers of these lists know they exist and are out there.=C2=A0 Most such r= eaders know, or knew once, what the lists are supposed to be for.=C2=A0 But= almost everything I've read from you seems to be an explanation of the= existence of an Internet architecture and/ or an Internet governance topic= together with the existence and availability of the lists.=C2=A0

Do you want something?=C2=A0 Do you intend to try to explain something to u= s that we don't know already?=C2=A0 If so, is that explanation likely t= o be actionable by the IETF or IAB and, if so, how.=C2=A0 And, of course, w= hat is it?

thanks,
=C2=A0 john


--On Thursday, April 25, 2019 08:16 +0700 Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> w= rote:

> Dear All,
>
> The Internet architecture --the Internet protocols and their
> designs-- are in situations among which is about its possible
> inplementations enabled by such a governance(s). That is supposedly a =
> matter of the Internet Governance suitable with what was ever
> officially published by the Internet Architecture Board related with <= br> > the release of internetgovtech@iab.org mailing list (2013)
>
> "to discuss topics regarding the intersection of Internet governa= nce
> and IETF technical work. In particular, this list will focus on issues=
> relating to Internet governance and regulation, including the 2014 ITU=
> Plenipotentiary Conference, and their potential to impact the future <= br> > of the Internet architecture".
>
> https://iab.org/activities/internet-governance/
>
> Regard,
> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>
> Pada Kamis, 25 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
> menulis:
>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> D. Thaler in his "Evolution of the IP Model" (RFC 6250) = referring IP
>> service model to section 2.2. of RFC 0791, RFC 1958, and section 2= ..1
>> of RFC 4903 --while the document as a whole referring also to othe= r
>> RFCs.
>>
>> There are also other historians and futurologs ever analysed the <= br> >> Internet architecture examplified by
>>
>> RFC 3274 "The Rise of the Middle and the Future of End-to-End=
>> Argument: Reflections on the Evolution of the Internet Architectur= e"
>> (Kempf, J.=C2=A0 & R. Austen Eds., Network Working Group-IAB, = 2004)
>>
>> This document examined the development of end-to-end principles as= it
>> had been applied by the Internet over years.
>>
>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3274
>>
>> RFC 1827 "Toward The Future Internet Architecture" (Clar= k, D.
>> et all., Network Working Group, 1991)
>>
>> This document represented an understanding that the Internet
>> architecture as "the grand plan behind the TCP/IP protocol su= ite"
>> envisioned its possible evolution as there had been increasing sig= ns
>> of strains on the fundemental architecture mostly stemming from th= e
>> continued growth of the Internet.
>>
>>
>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1287
>>
>> Regard,
>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>
>> Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
>> menulis:
>>
>>> Dear All,
>>>
>>> The reasoning of "The Internet, Architecture, Governance,= Technical
>>> Work, and Net History" I said above "Individuals, or= collective
>>> individuals, are in an age of the
>>> Internet...": as it concerns with "concept", &q= uot;discourse" and
>>> "history" is supposedly inspired by my personal expe= riences of
>>> reading works on and by Michel Foucault, Gilles Deleuze and Fe= lix
>>> Guattari.
>>>
>>> To those have interests with the "supposed inspiration&qu= ot; are pleased
>>> to visit these links below
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=3DFouca= ult&x=3D7&y=3D8
>>>
>>> https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=3DDeleuze%2C+Guattari&x=3D0&y=3D0
>>>
>>>
>>> Regard,
>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>
>>> Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
>>> menulis:
>>>
>>>> Dear All,
>>>>
>>>> The websites www.datatracker.ietf.org and www.rfc-editor.org are
>>>> historians for the services of historical archives the pro= vide.
>>>> While a personal historian may deserve to mention, especia= lly on
>>>> the "Internet
>>>> Architecture":
>>>>
>>>> D. Thaler documented aspects of Internet Protocol service = model as
>>>> they evolved over time .... Some guidence for protocol des= igners an
>>>> implementers were also suggested...
>>>>
>>>> "RFC 6250: Evolution of IP Service Model" (IAB, = May 2011)
>>>>
>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6250
>>>>
>>>> Regard,
>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>
>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> =
>>>> menulis:
>>>>
>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>
>>>>> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Arch= itecture"
>>>>> to Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in = my message
>>>>> April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to ment= ion "RFC 791: Internet
>>>>> Protocol" (J. Postel, September 1981) and its his= tories -- those
>>>>> obsolete and updates: which is about the name/title &q= uot;Internet
>>>>> Protocol" they have...
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791
>>>>>
>>>>> The RFC 791 is one of Official Internet Protocol
>>>>> Standards: Internet Standards --of which there are one= s do not use
>>>>> terms "Internet Protocol" -- for examples &q= uot;Transmission Control
>>>>> Protocol", "User Datagram Protocol", &q= uot; Broadcasting Internet
>>>>> Datagrams"...
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards
>>>>>
>>>>> Regard,
>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>>
>>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>> <gsenopu@gmail..com> menulis:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet = Architecture" to
>>>>>> Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in= my message
>>>>>> April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to = mention "RFC 791:
>>>>>> Internet Protocol" (J.
>>>>>> Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- those= obsolete and
>>>>>> updates: which is about the name/title "Inter= net Protocol" they
>>>>>> have....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regard,
>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>> <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Hesham and All,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is a need for correction for the earlier= message:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines&= quot; (2002) --which I
>>>>>>> missed before-- was made to propose such an ex= tension of
>>>>>>> "Architectural Principles of the Internet= " (1996) as the latter
>>>>>>> considered complexity (control) in relation wi= th the Internet in
>>>>>>> large scale...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt<= /a>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It should be:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines&= quot; (2002) --which I
>>>>>>> missed before-- was made to propose such an ex= tension of
>>>>>>> "Architectural Principles of the Internet= " (1996) as the first
>>>>>>> considered complexity (control) in relation wi= th the Internet in
>>>>>>> large scale...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt<= /a>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regard,
>>>>>>> Gintur Wiseno Putra
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putr= a
>>>>>>> <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dear Hesham and All,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guideli= nes" (2002) --which I
>>>>>>>> missed before-- was made to propose such a= n extension of
>>>>>>>> "Architectural Principles of the Inte= rnet"
>>>>>>>> (1996) as the latter considered complexity= (control) in
>>>>>>>> relation with the Internet in large scale.= ...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.= txt
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regard,
>>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Hesham ElBakour= y <
>>>>>>>> Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com> menulis:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think you meant RFC1958 which is upd= ated by RFC3439.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hesham
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *From:* Architecture-discuss
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:architecture-discuss-b ounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of
>>>>>>>>> *Guntur Wiseno Putra *Sent:* Monday, A= pril 22, 2019 6:41 AM
>>>>>>>>> *To:* architecture-discuss@ietf.org; internetgovtech@iab= .org;
>>>>>>>>> nethistory@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* [arch-d] The Internet, Arch= itecture, Governance,
>>>>>>>>> Technical Work and Net History: A Spec= i
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Of the question "What is the Inte= rnet Architecture?"
>>>>>>>>> mentioned in the earlier message:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Brian. E. Carpenter's text "R= FC 1985: Architectural Principles
>>>>>>>>> of the Internet" mentioned about = Internet protocols and their
>>>>>>>>> design: May this links helpful to get = arrived there at related
>>>>>>>>> archives ( as the text did not use any= online source but
>>>>>>>>> suppposedly paper ones as references).= ...:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search?name=3D
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> - https://www.rfc-editor.org/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Here are=C2=A0 menus "= ;Internet Standard", "Official
>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Internet Protocol Standard= s", and "advanced search".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regard,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wise= no Putra
>>>>>>>>> <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Individuals, or collectifs of individu= als, are in an age of
>>>>>>>>> the Internet. It is such a presence ma= y be approached and
>>>>>>>>> sensed by many ways --even when one sa= id that s/he had just
>>>>>>>>> eat a food which a receipt was gotten = by communicating by the
>>>>>>>>> Internet..
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Among others there are presences of &q= uot;the Internet
>>>>>>>>> Architecture", "Internet Gov= ernance and Technical Work" and
>>>>>>>>> "Net History" as they repres= ent interest-based mailing lists.
>>>>>>>>> How could one get arrived into those m= atters (together) --such
>>>>>>>>> a programmatic readership/learning: as= sources and concepts
>>>>>>>>> have history and discources collective= s/net... ? Should we
>>>>>>>>> imagine about information sources by m= aking such a readership
>>>>>>>>> based on the linkage between the three= ....? Thus we may say
>>>>>>>>> about "The Internet Architecture,= Governance and Technical
>>>>>>>>> Works: a Net History" (to say &qu= ot;A Net History in Terms of The
>>>>>>>>> Internet Architecture, Governance and = Technical Work)...?
>>>>>>>>> --there would be a discourse map on th= e special readership
>>>>>>>>> which is about a co-presence of mailin= g lists...? --as one may
>>>>>>>>> use search engines of each mailing lis= t for related
>>>>>>>>> interests...?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To make an engagement with the program= me should we go with
>>>>>>>>> such tentative journeys considering pa= rts of the special
>>>>>>>>> readership...?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For example:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> By considering the reasoning above: >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To the question on "What is the I= nternet Architecture?" we may
>>>>>>>>> refer to (archival) sources
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "RFC 1958: Architectural Principl= es of the Internet"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996) >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc195= 8
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (Note:)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It was a snapshot record of the princi= ples of the Internet
>>>>>>>>> Achitecture intended for general guida= nce and general
>>>>>>>>> interest...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It was updated by RFC 3439...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Both the concept "Internet Archit= ecture" and the document RFC
>>>>>>>>> 1958 have history bringing readers to = other relevant
>>>>>>>>> sources... They supposedly also give s= uggestions to come to
>>>>>>>>> broader or other conceptual discourses= on "governance and
>>>>>>>>> technical work"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regard,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>




_______= ________________________________________
Nethistory ma= iling list
Nethistory@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/m= ailman/listinfo/nethistory
--000000000000d4d6540587660ca1-- From nobody Fri Apr 26 08:47:34 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09B24120404 for ; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 19:56:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=hopcount.ca Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BvwHBrYnCaYR for ; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 19:56:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x12c.google.com (mail-lf1-x12c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6804E120409 for ; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 19:56:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x12c.google.com with SMTP id v1so1310193lfg.5 for ; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 19:56:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hopcount.ca; s=google; h=from:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=7QYbqD4Spp1Ik0XLBFgBtb/MWpjdFWhts8/fhIdt9+0=; b=MVrU9zVZawUuBCSlDVmyS6UB5v3ctc33mS2ud7rPfNIZkhhkompnfMPx8wR167MxQc UEA37i1e10eDTiPhQ4dvqY+P/NMdl5tCjotu971zO5qcbPEeVxjFC6kPaVWGoj99qhw+ GQ80xUz/Tm3OZLw3POLc64X6aO253Ttu6vmBg= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=7QYbqD4Spp1Ik0XLBFgBtb/MWpjdFWhts8/fhIdt9+0=; b=fRKODSqPjEUvvPnjJgHO68nQ8JnWT5NF9Jkg7yTKM1KnEdbooO7Nu7ZJ/756JhlAzT HEXJoHYob24C5GRWsEOJ5s8WtE0LTWiCax3qjnFoyF0rlut6zOOgKYUwkbQJ4se9w3x5 NGB7aR0mh87J1sB1GPC3iTfbsrmAZ1pelIOtrRXWP8/W0FME8kuVsJ+QLyYDhV5mfHe6 yX5q5HIYA8pUpZJR/4jsd+7eWKIAX+k24+TRomRqI6dJmb1019dG1yhh+6FLplJd5RSk ZfYPu4qO3bEGtM8NAOiI07xh4RR95CqwmoHf9DG5CMPHN4ZBQpXgzhGU4JaLfkxVUn+Q 6/pw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVpxtORwim9mIMjUOfY9LV99tdrKLemLb+g6zGg3PUoXdLavH+y Nozv6zMVKzUDjcQx0BC0lCC84toibetvbLSzvI11kw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwGteZ2YyerJ3wrKFSIcdOZZLj8gE3sdlzXzNr0NzRnGCKzTzzO336LTZsqyiv5PSCvEhkZxJBQZ1y6FuiLZmc= X-Received: by 2002:a19:750e:: with SMTP id y14mr22492305lfe.74.1556247397487; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 19:56:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unknown named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Thu, 25 Apr 2019 22:56:36 -0400 From: Joe Abley Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) References: <754E03CE4D0735B550B88448@PSB> In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 22:56:36 -0400 Message-ID: To: Guntur Wiseno Putra Cc: Hesham ElBakoury , John C Klensin , "internetgovtech@iab.org" , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" , "nethistory@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004f6c6805876615f6" Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 08:47:18 -0700 Subject: Re: [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 02:56:44 -0000 --0000000000004f6c6805876615f6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Bravo. On Apr 25, 2019, at 22:54, Guntur Wiseno Putra wrote: Dear Joe and All, The expostition I tried was about a learning... Here is a place of concerned people... Regard, Guntur Wiseno Putra Pada Jumat, 26 April 2019, Joe Abley menulis: > Guntur, > > You are to be congratulated indeed. Not since the heyday of such > practitioners as Dr Joe Baptista and Dean Anderson have I seen such a > skilful exposition. > > > Joe > > On Apr 25, 2019, at 06:23, Guntur Wiseno Putra wrote: > > Dear All John, Hesham and All, > > > What are after such an "introductory" reading --such a grand image, such a > grand map...? -on the Internet architecture and governance...? > as we are trying to learn of those aspects by such reading with the help > of a set of knowledges on concept, discourse and history...? > > Histories, historical stories, attempted above teach us: people struggled > by technology. At least we have an "enthusiasm" for what will come up > tomorrow, especially about our humanity and society regarding with > possibilities of the Internet as a kind of communication platform > --especially on aspects of it: architecture and governance... > > But, there are perhaps lacks with these analytical readings --those design > and implementation-- being attempted... Here thus experts may come with > their suggestions... > > > > > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > Pada Kamis, 25 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury > menulis: > >> I actually have the same question ... >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: John C Klensin [mailto:john-ietf@jck.com] >> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2019 12:36 AM >> To: Guntur Wiseno Putra >> Cc: Hesham ElBakoury ; >> internetgovtech@iab.org; architecture-discuss@ietf.org; >> nethistory@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Internetgovtech] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, >> Technical Work and Net History: A Speci >> >> Guntur, >> >> I've tried to following your multiple postings, but am getting more and >> more confused. Yes, there are some broad principles that can be considered >> together to constitute an "Internet architecture". Once one gets past >> extremely broad principles and down to details, I doubt that there is >> strong consensus in the community about many of the details of that >> architecture: >> there are other documents with different theories and some people would >> claim that some of the things that are said in some of the documents you >> have cited have not stood the test of time. >> Some of those principles interact with "Internet governance"; many, >> including questions about who should be in charge of various resources once >> one determines that someone, or some combination of actors, actually need >> to be, do not. The mailing lists you are using are appropriate for >> discussions of those issues although I think the case for cross-posting to >> internetgovtech and architecture-discuss, much less the nethistory list, >> has yet to be made. >> >> But what I don't understand --and what is confusing me more with each >> posting from you-- is why you are posting these notes and >> what you are trying to accomplish. Almost by definition, the >> readers of these lists know they exist and are out there. Most such >> readers know, or knew once, what the lists are supposed to be for. But >> almost everything I've read from you seems to be an explanation of the >> existence of an Internet architecture and/ or an Internet governance topic >> together with the existence and availability of the lists. >> >> Do you want something? Do you intend to try to explain something to us >> that we don't know already? If so, is that explanation likely to be >> actionable by the IETF or IAB and, if so, how. And, of course, what is it? >> >> thanks, >> john >> >> >> --On Thursday, April 25, 2019 08:16 +0700 Guntur Wiseno Putra < >> gsenopu@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > Dear All, >> > >> > The Internet architecture --the Internet protocols and their >> > designs-- are in situations among which is about its possible >> > inplementations enabled by such a governance(s). That is supposedly a >> > matter of the Internet Governance suitable with what was ever >> > officially published by the Internet Architecture Board related with >> > the release of internetgovtech@iab.org mailing list (2013) >> > >> > "to discuss topics regarding the intersection of Internet governance >> > and IETF technical work. In particular, this list will focus on issues >> > relating to Internet governance and regulation, including the 2014 ITU >> > Plenipotentiary Conference, and their potential to impact the future >> > of the Internet architecture". >> > >> > https://iab.org/activities/internet-governance/ >> > >> > Regard, >> > Guntur Wiseno Putra >> > >> > Pada Kamis, 25 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >> > menulis: >> > >> >> Dear All, >> >> >> >> D. Thaler in his "Evolution of the IP Model" (RFC 6250) referring IP >> >> service model to section 2.2. of RFC 0791, RFC 1958, and section 2..1 >> >> of RFC 4903 --while the document as a whole referring also to other >> >> RFCs. >> >> >> >> There are also other historians and futurologs ever analysed the >> >> Internet architecture examplified by >> >> >> >> RFC 3274 "The Rise of the Middle and the Future of End-to-End >> >> Argument: Reflections on the Evolution of the Internet Architecture" >> >> (Kempf, J. & R. Austen Eds., Network Working Group-IAB, 2004) >> >> >> >> This document examined the development of end-to-end principles as it >> >> had been applied by the Internet over years. >> >> >> >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3274 >> >> >> >> RFC 1827 "Toward The Future Internet Architecture" (Clark, D. >> >> et all., Network Working Group, 1991) >> >> >> >> This document represented an understanding that the Internet >> >> architecture as "the grand plan behind the TCP/IP protocol suite" >> >> envisioned its possible evolution as there had been increasing signs >> >> of strains on the fundemental architecture mostly stemming from the >> >> continued growth of the Internet. >> >> >> >> >> >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1287 >> >> >> >> Regard, >> >> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >> >> >> Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >> menulis: >> >> >> >>> Dear All, >> >>> >> >>> The reasoning of "The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical >> >>> Work, and Net History" I said above "Individuals, or collective >> >>> individuals, are in an age of the >> >>> Internet...": as it concerns with "concept", "discourse" and >> >>> "history" is supposedly inspired by my personal experiences of >> >>> reading works on and by Michel Foucault, Gilles Deleuze and Felix >> >>> Guattari. >> >>> >> >>> To those have interests with the "supposed inspiration" are pleased >> >>> to visit these links below >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=Foucault&x=7&y=8 >> >>> >> >>> https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=Deleuze%2C+Guattari&x=0&y=0 >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Regard, >> >>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >>> >> >>> Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >>> menulis: >> >>> >> >>>> Dear All, >> >>>> >> >>>> The websites www.datatracker.ietf.org and www.rfc-editor.org are >> >>>> historians for the services of historical archives the provide. >> >>>> While a personal historian may deserve to mention, especially on >> >>>> the "Internet >> >>>> Architecture": >> >>>> >> >>>> D. Thaler documented aspects of Internet Protocol service model as >> >>>> they evolved over time .... Some guidence for protocol designers an >> >>>> implementers were also suggested... >> >>>> >> >>>> "RFC 6250: Evolution of IP Service Model" (IAB, May 2011) >> >>>> >> >>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6250 >> >>>> >> >>>> Regard, >> >>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >>>> >> >>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >>>> menulis: >> >>>> >> >>>>> Dear All, >> >>>>> >> >>>>> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture" >> >>>>> to Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message >> >>>>> April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to mention "RFC 791: Internet >> >>>>> Protocol" (J. Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- those >> >>>>> obsolete and updates: which is about the name/title "Internet >> >>>>> Protocol" they have... >> >>>>> >> >>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791 >> >>>>> >> >>>>> The RFC 791 is one of Official Internet Protocol >> >>>>> Standards: Internet Standards --of which there are ones do not use >> >>>>> terms "Internet Protocol" -- for examples "Transmission Control >> >>>>> Protocol", "User Datagram Protocol", " Broadcasting Internet >> >>>>> Datagrams"... >> >>>>> >> >>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Regard, >> >>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >>>>> > menulis: >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> Dear All, >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture" to >> >>>>>> Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message >> >>>>>> April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to mention "RFC 791: >> >>>>>> Internet Protocol" (J. >> >>>>>> Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- those obsolete and >> >>>>>> updates: which is about the name/title "Internet Protocol" they >> >>>>>> have.... >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791 >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Regard, >> >>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >>>>>> menulis: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Dear Hesham and All, >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> There is a need for correction for the earlier message: >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I >> >>>>>>> missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of >> >>>>>>> "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the latter >> >>>>>>> considered complexity (control) in relation with the Internet in >> >>>>>>> large scale... >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> It should be: >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I >> >>>>>>> missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of >> >>>>>>> "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the first >> >>>>>>> considered complexity (control) in relation with the Internet in >> >>>>>>> large scale... >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Regard, >> >>>>>>> Gintur Wiseno Putra >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >>>>>>> menulis: >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Dear Hesham and All, >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I >> >>>>>>>> missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of >> >>>>>>>> "Architectural Principles of the Internet" >> >>>>>>>> (1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) in >> >>>>>>>> relation with the Internet in large scale.... >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Regard, >> >>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury < >> >>>>>>>> Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com> menulis: >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> I think you meant RFC1958 which is updated by RFC3439. >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Hesham >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> *From:* Architecture-discuss >> >>>>>>>>> [mailto:architecture-discuss-b ounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of >> >>>>>>>>> *Guntur Wiseno Putra *Sent:* Monday, April 22, 2019 6:41 AM >> >>>>>>>>> *To:* architecture-discuss@ietf.org; internetgovtech@iab.org; >> >>>>>>>>> nethistory@ietf.org >> >>>>>>>>> *Subject:* [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, >> >>>>>>>>> Technical Work and Net History: A Speci >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Dear All, >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Of the question "What is the Internet Architecture?" >> >>>>>>>>> mentioned in the earlier message: >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Brian. E. Carpenter's text "RFC 1985: Architectural Principles >> >>>>>>>>> of the Internet" mentioned about Internet protocols and their >> >>>>>>>>> design: May this links helpful to get arrived there at related >> >>>>>>>>> archives ( as the text did not use any online source but >> >>>>>>>>> suppposedly paper ones as references)....: >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search?name= >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> - https://www.rfc-editor.org/ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Here are menus "Internet Standard", "Official >> >>>>>>>>> Internet Protocol Standards", and "advanced search". >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Regard, >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >>>>>>>>> menulis: >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Dear All, >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Individuals, or collectifs of individuals, are in an age of >> >>>>>>>>> the Internet. It is such a presence may be approached and >> >>>>>>>>> sensed by many ways --even when one said that s/he had just >> >>>>>>>>> eat a food which a receipt was gotten by communicating by the >> >>>>>>>>> Internet.. >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Among others there are presences of "the Internet >> >>>>>>>>> Architecture", "Internet Governance and Technical Work" and >> >>>>>>>>> "Net History" as they represent interest-based mailing lists. >> >>>>>>>>> How could one get arrived into those matters (together) --such >> >>>>>>>>> a programmatic readership/learning: as sources and concepts >> >>>>>>>>> have history and discources collectives/net... ? Should we >> >>>>>>>>> imagine about information sources by making such a readership >> >>>>>>>>> based on the linkage between the three....? Thus we may say >> >>>>>>>>> about "The Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical >> >>>>>>>>> Works: a Net History" (to say "A Net History in Terms of The >> >>>>>>>>> Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical Work)...? >> >>>>>>>>> --there would be a discourse map on the special readership >> >>>>>>>>> which is about a co-presence of mailing lists...? --as one may >> >>>>>>>>> use search engines of each mailing list for related >> >>>>>>>>> interests...? >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> To make an engagement with the programme should we go with >> >>>>>>>>> such tentative journeys considering parts of the special >> >>>>>>>>> readership...? >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> For example: >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> By considering the reasoning above: >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> To the question on "What is the Internet Architecture?" we may >> >>>>>>>>> refer to (archival) sources >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> "RFC 1958: Architectural Principles of the Internet" >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> (Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996) >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1958 >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> (Note:) >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> It was a snapshot record of the principles of the Internet >> >>>>>>>>> Achitecture intended for general guidance and general >> >>>>>>>>> interest... >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> It was updated by RFC 3439... >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Both the concept "Internet Architecture" and the document RFC >> >>>>>>>>> 1958 have history bringing readers to other relevant >> >>>>>>>>> sources... They supposedly also give suggestions to come to >> >>>>>>>>> broader or other conceptual discourses on "governance and >> >>>>>>>>> technical work" >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Regard, >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > Nethistory mailing list > Nethistory@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nethistory > > --0000000000004f6c6805876615f6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bravo.=C2=A0

On Apr 25, 2019, at 22:54, Guntur W= iseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:

Dear Joe= and All,

The expostition I tried was about a learning..= . Here is a place of concerned people...


Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Jumat, 26 April 201= 9, Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca> menulis:
Guntur,

You are= to be congratulated indeed. Not since the heyday of such practitioners as = Dr Joe Baptista and Dean Anderson have I seen such a skilful exposition.


J= oe
D= ear All John, Hesham and All,


What are af= ter such an "introductory" reading --such a grand image, such a g= rand map...? -on the Internet architecture and governance...?
as = we are trying to learn of those aspects by such reading with the help of a = set of knowledges on concept, discourse and history...?

<= div>Histories, historical stories, attempted above teach us: people struggl= ed by technology. At least we have an "enthusiasm" for what will = come up tomorrow, especially about our humanity and society regarding with = possibilities of the Internet as a kind of communication platform --especia= lly on aspects of it: architecture and governance...

But, there are perhaps lacks with these analytical readings --those desi= gn and implementation-- being attempted... Here thus experts may come with = their suggestions...




Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Kamis, 25= April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com> menulis:
I actually have the same question ...

-----Original Message-----
From: John C Klensin [mailto:john-ietf@jck.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2019 12:36 AM
To: Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
Cc: Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>; internetgovtech@iab.org; architecture-di= scuss@ietf.org; nethistory@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Internetgovtech] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Tech= nical Work and Net History: A Speci

Guntur,

I've tried to following your multiple postings, but am getting more and= more confused.=C2=A0 Yes, there are some broad principles that can be cons= idered together to constitute an "Internet architecture".=C2=A0 O= nce one gets past extremely broad principles and down to details, I doubt t= hat there is strong consensus in the community about many of the details of= that architecture:
there are other documents with different theories and some people would cla= im that some of the things that are said in some of the documents you have = cited have not stood the test of time.
Some of those principles interact with "Internet governance"; man= y, including questions about who should be in charge of various resources o= nce one determines that someone, or some combination of actors, actually ne= ed to be, do not.=C2=A0 The mailing lists you are using are appropriate for= discussions of those issues although I think the case for cross-posting to= internetgovtech and architecture-discuss, much less the nethistory list, h= as yet to be made.

But what I don't understand --and what is confusing me more with each p= osting from you-- is why you are posting these notes and
what you are trying to accomplish.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Almost by definition, the readers of these lists know they exist and are out there.=C2=A0 Most such r= eaders know, or knew once, what the lists are supposed to be for.=C2=A0 But= almost everything I've read from you seems to be an explanation of the= existence of an Internet architecture and/ or an Internet governance topic= together with the existence and availability of the lists.=C2=A0

Do you want something?=C2=A0 Do you intend to try to explain something to u= s that we don't know already?=C2=A0 If so, is that explanation likely t= o be actionable by the IETF or IAB and, if so, how.=C2=A0 And, of course, w= hat is it?

thanks,
=C2=A0 john


--On Thursday, April 25, 2019 08:16 +0700 Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> w= rote:

> Dear All,
>
> The Internet architecture --the Internet protocols and their
> designs-- are in situations among which is about its possible
> inplementations enabled by such a governance(s). That is supposedly a =
> matter of the Internet Governance suitable with what was ever
> officially published by the Internet Architecture Board related with <= br> > the release of internetgovtech@iab.org mailing list (2013)
>
> "to discuss topics regarding the intersection of Internet governa= nce
> and IETF technical work. In particular, this list will focus on issues=
> relating to Internet governance and regulation, including the 2014 ITU=
> Plenipotentiary Conference, and their potential to impact the future <= br> > of the Internet architecture".
>
> https://iab.org/activities/internet-governance/
>
> Regard,
> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>
> Pada Kamis, 25 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
> menulis:
>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> D. Thaler in his "Evolution of the IP Model" (RFC 6250) = referring IP
>> service model to section 2.2. of RFC 0791, RFC 1958, and section 2= ..1
>> of RFC 4903 --while the document as a whole referring also to othe= r
>> RFCs.
>>
>> There are also other historians and futurologs ever analysed the <= br> >> Internet architecture examplified by
>>
>> RFC 3274 "The Rise of the Middle and the Future of End-to-End=
>> Argument: Reflections on the Evolution of the Internet Architectur= e"
>> (Kempf, J.=C2=A0 & R. Austen Eds., Network Working Group-IAB, = 2004)
>>
>> This document examined the development of end-to-end principles as= it
>> had been applied by the Internet over years.
>>
>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3274
>>
>> RFC 1827 "Toward The Future Internet Architecture" (Clar= k, D.
>> et all., Network Working Group, 1991)
>>
>> This document represented an understanding that the Internet
>> architecture as "the grand plan behind the TCP/IP protocol su= ite"
>> envisioned its possible evolution as there had been increasing sig= ns
>> of strains on the fundemental architecture mostly stemming from th= e
>> continued growth of the Internet.
>>
>>
>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1287
>>
>> Regard,
>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>
>> Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
>> menulis:
>>
>>> Dear All,
>>>
>>> The reasoning of "The Internet, Architecture, Governance,= Technical
>>> Work, and Net History" I said above "Individuals, or= collective
>>> individuals, are in an age of the
>>> Internet...": as it concerns with "concept", &q= uot;discourse" and
>>> "history" is supposedly inspired by my personal expe= riences of
>>> reading works on and by Michel Foucault, Gilles Deleuze and Fe= lix
>>> Guattari.
>>>
>>> To those have interests with the "supposed inspiration&qu= ot; are pleased
>>> to visit these links below
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=3DFouca= ult&x=3D7&y=3D8
>>>
>>> https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=3DDeleuze%2C+Guattari&x=3D0&y=3D0
>>>
>>>
>>> Regard,
>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>
>>> Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
>>> menulis:
>>>
>>>> Dear All,
>>>>
>>>> The websites www.datatracker.ietf.org and www.rfc-editor.org are
>>>> historians for the services of historical archives the pro= vide.
>>>> While a personal historian may deserve to mention, especia= lly on
>>>> the "Internet
>>>> Architecture":
>>>>
>>>> D. Thaler documented aspects of Internet Protocol service = model as
>>>> they evolved over time .... Some guidence for protocol des= igners an
>>>> implementers were also suggested...
>>>>
>>>> "RFC 6250: Evolution of IP Service Model" (IAB, = May 2011)
>>>>
>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6250
>>>>
>>>> Regard,
>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>
>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> =
>>>> menulis:
>>>>
>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>
>>>>> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Arch= itecture"
>>>>> to Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in = my message
>>>>> April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to ment= ion "RFC 791: Internet
>>>>> Protocol" (J. Postel, September 1981) and its his= tories -- those
>>>>> obsolete and updates: which is about the name/title &q= uot;Internet
>>>>> Protocol" they have...
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791
>>>>>
>>>>> The RFC 791 is one of Official Internet Protocol
>>>>> Standards: Internet Standards --of which there are one= s do not use
>>>>> terms "Internet Protocol" -- for examples &q= uot;Transmission Control
>>>>> Protocol", "User Datagram Protocol", &q= uot; Broadcasting Internet
>>>>> Datagrams"...
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards
>>>>>
>>>>> Regard,
>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>>
>>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>> <gsenopu@gmail..com> menulis:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet = Architecture" to
>>>>>> Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in= my message
>>>>>> April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to = mention "RFC 791:
>>>>>> Internet Protocol" (J.
>>>>>> Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- those= obsolete and
>>>>>> updates: which is about the name/title "Inter= net Protocol" they
>>>>>> have....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regard,
>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>> <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Hesham and All,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is a need for correction for the earlier= message:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines&= quot; (2002) --which I
>>>>>>> missed before-- was made to propose such an ex= tension of
>>>>>>> "Architectural Principles of the Internet= " (1996) as the latter
>>>>>>> considered complexity (control) in relation wi= th the Internet in
>>>>>>> large scale...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt<= /a>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It should be:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines&= quot; (2002) --which I
>>>>>>> missed before-- was made to propose such an ex= tension of
>>>>>>> "Architectural Principles of the Internet= " (1996) as the first
>>>>>>> considered complexity (control) in relation wi= th the Internet in
>>>>>>> large scale...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt<= /a>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regard,
>>>>>>> Gintur Wiseno Putra
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putr= a
>>>>>>> <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dear Hesham and All,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guideli= nes" (2002) --which I
>>>>>>>> missed before-- was made to propose such a= n extension of
>>>>>>>> "Architectural Principles of the Inte= rnet"
>>>>>>>> (1996) as the latter considered complexity= (control) in
>>>>>>>> relation with the Internet in large scale.= ...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.= txt
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regard,
>>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Hesham ElBakour= y <
>>>>>>>> Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com> menulis:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think you meant RFC1958 which is upd= ated by RFC3439.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hesham
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *From:* Architecture-discuss
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:architecture-discuss-b ounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of
>>>>>>>>> *Guntur Wiseno Putra *Sent:* Monday, A= pril 22, 2019 6:41 AM
>>>>>>>>> *To:* architecture-discuss@ietf.org; internetgovtech@iab= .org;
>>>>>>>>> nethistory@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* [arch-d] The Internet, Arch= itecture, Governance,
>>>>>>>>> Technical Work and Net History: A Spec= i
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Of the question "What is the Inte= rnet Architecture?"
>>>>>>>>> mentioned in the earlier message:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Brian. E. Carpenter's text "R= FC 1985: Architectural Principles
>>>>>>>>> of the Internet" mentioned about = Internet protocols and their
>>>>>>>>> design: May this links helpful to get = arrived there at related
>>>>>>>>> archives ( as the text did not use any= online source but
>>>>>>>>> suppposedly paper ones as references).= ...:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search?name=3D
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> - https://www.rfc-editor.org/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Here are=C2=A0 menus "= ;Internet Standard", "Official
>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Internet Protocol Standard= s", and "advanced search".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regard,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wise= no Putra
>>>>>>>>> <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Individuals, or collectifs of individu= als, are in an age of
>>>>>>>>> the Internet. It is such a presence ma= y be approached and
>>>>>>>>> sensed by many ways --even when one sa= id that s/he had just
>>>>>>>>> eat a food which a receipt was gotten = by communicating by the
>>>>>>>>> Internet..
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Among others there are presences of &q= uot;the Internet
>>>>>>>>> Architecture", "Internet Gov= ernance and Technical Work" and
>>>>>>>>> "Net History" as they repres= ent interest-based mailing lists.
>>>>>>>>> How could one get arrived into those m= atters (together) --such
>>>>>>>>> a programmatic readership/learning: as= sources and concepts
>>>>>>>>> have history and discources collective= s/net... ? Should we
>>>>>>>>> imagine about information sources by m= aking such a readership
>>>>>>>>> based on the linkage between the three= ....? Thus we may say
>>>>>>>>> about "The Internet Architecture,= Governance and Technical
>>>>>>>>> Works: a Net History" (to say &qu= ot;A Net History in Terms of The
>>>>>>>>> Internet Architecture, Governance and = Technical Work)...?
>>>>>>>>> --there would be a discourse map on th= e special readership
>>>>>>>>> which is about a co-presence of mailin= g lists...? --as one may
>>>>>>>>> use search engines of each mailing lis= t for related
>>>>>>>>> interests...?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To make an engagement with the program= me should we go with
>>>>>>>>> such tentative journeys considering pa= rts of the special
>>>>>>>>> readership...?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For example:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> By considering the reasoning above: >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To the question on "What is the I= nternet Architecture?" we may
>>>>>>>>> refer to (archival) sources
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "RFC 1958: Architectural Principl= es of the Internet"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996) >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc195= 8
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (Note:)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It was a snapshot record of the princi= ples of the Internet
>>>>>>>>> Achitecture intended for general guida= nce and general
>>>>>>>>> interest...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It was updated by RFC 3439...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Both the concept "Internet Archit= ecture" and the document RFC
>>>>>>>>> 1958 have history bringing readers to = other relevant
>>>>>>>>> sources... They supposedly also give s= uggestions to come to
>>>>>>>>> broader or other conceptual discourses= on "governance and
>>>>>>>>> technical work"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regard,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>




_______= ________________________________________
Nethistory ma= iling list
Nethistory@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/m= ailman/listinfo/nethistory
 --0000000000004f6c6805876615f6-- From nobody Sat Apr 27 08:15:08 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C89D41200D7; Sat, 27 Apr 2019 08:14:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F0WCFZcB2j4e; Sat, 27 Apr 2019 08:14:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x22d.google.com (mail-oi1-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F41E120180; Sat, 27 Apr 2019 08:14:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x22d.google.com with SMTP id k10so5235588oik.7; Sat, 27 Apr 2019 08:14:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=3k8zRCIlNfxun42WlITjjtfTeNn51Er6/bO0NMY5ziA=; b=fsrYWpxUlmCFq9S3MWNwa15Jmw7Z7t0r9gol1mhO5PCKa01ZYZDPVR7U3rkN1tzxSs WCBC/wv5MB8UlRa1WpA+lTCcBvMmMqxmmRF0rwSNdM7zk+cAQMLzY3Dp+iC47Zjc/Hzq u6+Z3IAIyta2EQ+K74Lbht3LclAPT3PBhHQkyhtUeR07IEFzELrtsMryP39S5CLC+XR0 i/mNgJPUYp0wu0/36Nxw/4klPd5rGCyHMWa55NkqXxSOPun1uvEUs5iebwS2Cr7LD409 rHxCayN+xLC5Rq9L60lcjbocoUMwjV0BOGpNMhSSNnFZwOl0GC+KQ4hFx17An+qD2C39 nv1g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=3k8zRCIlNfxun42WlITjjtfTeNn51Er6/bO0NMY5ziA=; b=Kk7pRvMBjg5fO2FPEKVlHE6008NvZcjyqJqEDYGqrQYv64sLbW9rMnj0mUZ7Au4fhl pTskfTFo6zQdWwdXZM1/9rGofR2AVkuanrXGM06jk8bHhAiG0Z/fRRv1bnxmepdBMlI7 mqxJgQ8AFnhokqjIj0jwUK6daa4Y2JQh6BtHw2+0uSPiTOXGJyhP7zXq1gPoqYu5bKTw r9XC9uwzRXdbDkTS0sIFrVpQ2xr01CMrH7HJIRtTYB/i3vQxPaTHT87lijijuzrn8g9P K4I7t0dFLd4sslI3rg18WdMvv3nnMZ0VfT+GZdGXaHC1/dSrU8LTJcXhLqQRq4qJnAOu Jr0A== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXttPqjVe2t+saBdX1NgdnbW1mYlc1vkXC4JdiUiYVytdsz4T7G 5/C5PFsYKDHElewmR4lFKlXH4Jn6toPJdvj7dT4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx9vJNGnckfzE0uV55kKQta2lqLh0L7stTYoGX0BapIMTE5x0tNMmKYlcQVwMk2y2/R1ekgQRnUNBVEJAOSN/c= X-Received: by 2002:aca:812:: with SMTP id 18mr10240980oii.134.1556378084021; Sat, 27 Apr 2019 08:14:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a9d:2065:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Sat, 27 Apr 2019 08:14:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <754E03CE4D0735B550B88448@PSB> <165550584.544519.1556271183819@mail.libero.it> From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2019 22:14:43 +0700 Message-ID: To: "giorgio.simeoli@libero.it" Cc: Hesham ElBakoury , John C Klensin , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" , "internetgovtech@iab.org" , "nethistory@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d59c0205878482fe" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2019 15:14:53 -0000 --000000000000d59c0205878482fe Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear All, As we came with other readings, then we met the one, or the ones, having similarities but also difference with the previous ones --which may be a problem of designing such a reading, that accumulating readings and relating with real-time communications such as these mailing lists and thus relating with such a track of reading: Here we met "RFC 3869 IAB Concerns Regarding with Internet Research and Evolution" (Atkinson R. & S. Floyd eds, Network Working Group-IAB, 2004) --one that was with certain degree of seriousness, to say that it had an institutionalized standard of the Internet Architecture Board. The document was concerned with history and about the Internet research funding (section 2) but there a list of open research topics (section 3) ranging from naming, routing, security, networks management, meeting the future needs and else. Another we may say about this document is a matter of the Internet Governance as it explicitly mentioned about a non-ownership of the global Internet infrastructure by a single organization affecting funding considerations (section 1.2) --we may say that the Internet Governance is about management of tge Internet affairs such asresearch activities... Here we may compare it to what B. Carpenter said in "RFC 1958 Architectural Principles of the Internet" that nobody owns the Internet (section 2.4). Regard, Guntur Wiseno Putra Dear Giorgio and All, Forgive me if I do not understand your message: of I did not miss it came to me as a record of the talks under the same title: "The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Special Reading": which are since the first sent by me until the last sent by Joe Abley Was there things I missed...? Regard, Guntur Wiseno Putra Pada Jumat, 26 April 2019, menulis: > > Il 25 aprile 2019 alle 10.40 Hesham ElBakoury > ha scritto: > > I actually have the same question ... > > -----Original Message----- > From: John C Klensin [mailto:john-ietf@jck.com] > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2019 12:36 AM > To: Guntur Wiseno Putra > Cc: Hesham ElBakoury ; > internetgovtech@iab.org; architecture-discuss@ietf.org; > nethistory@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Internetgovtech] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, > Technical Work and Net History: A Speci > > Guntur, > > I've tried to following your multiple postings, but am getting more and > more confused. Yes, there are some broad principles that can be considered > together to constitute an "Internet architecture". Once one gets past > extremely broad principles and down to details, I doubt that there is > strong consensus in the community about many of the details of that > architecture: > there are other documents with different theories and some people would > claim that some of the things that are said in some of the documents you > have cited have not stood the test of time. > Some of those principles interact with "Internet governance"; many, > including questions about who should be in charge of various resources once > one determines that someone, or some combination of actors, actually need > to be, do not. The mailing lists you are using are appropriate for > discussions of those issues although I think the case for cross-posting to > internetgovtech and architecture-discuss, much less the nethistory list, > has yet to be made. > > But what I don't understand --and what is confusing me more with each > posting from you-- is why you are posting these notes and > what you are trying to accomplish. Almost by definition, the > readers of these lists know they exist and are out there. Most such > readers know, or knew once, what the lists are supposed to be for. But > almost everything I've read from you seems to be an explanation of the > existence of an Internet architecture and/ or an Internet governance topic > together with the existence and availability of the lists. > > Do you want something? Do you intend to try to explain something to us > that we don't know already? If so, is that explanation likely to be > actionable by the IETF or IAB and, if so, how. And, of course, what is it? > > thanks, > john > > --On Thursday, April 25, 2019 08:16 +0700 Guntur Wiseno Putra < > gsenopu@gmail.com> wrote: > > Dear All, > > The Internet architecture --the Internet protocols and their > designs-- are in situations among which is about its possible > inplementations enabled by such a governance(s). That is supposedly a > matter of the Internet Governance suitable with what was ever > officially published by the Internet Architecture Board related with > the release of internetgovtech@iab.org mailing list (2013) > > "to discuss topics regarding the intersection of Internet governance > and IETF technical work. In particular, this list will focus on issues > relating to Internet governance and regulation, including the 2014 ITU > Plenipotentiary Conference, and their potential to impact the future > of the Internet architecture". > > https://iab.org/activities/internet-governance/ > > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > Pada Kamis, 25 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > menulis: > > Dear All, > > D. Thaler in his "Evolution of the IP Model" (RFC 6250) referring IP > service model to section 2.2. of RFC 0791, RFC 1958, and section 2.1 > of RFC 4903 --while the document as a whole referring also to other > RFCs. > > There are also other historians and futurologs ever analysed the > Internet architecture examplified by > > RFC 3274 "The Rise of the Middle and the Future of End-to-End > Argument: Reflections on the Evolution of the Internet Architecture" > (Kempf, J. & R. Austen Eds., Network Working Group-IAB, 2004) > > This document examined the development of end-to-end principles as it > had been applied by the Internet over years. > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3274 > > RFC 1827 "Toward The Future Internet Architecture" (Clark, D. > et all., Network Working Group, 1991) > > This document represented an understanding that the Internet > architecture as "the grand plan behind the TCP/IP protocol suite" > envisioned its possible evolution as there had been increasing signs > of strains on the fundemental architecture mostly stemming from the > continued growth of the Internet. > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1287 > > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > menulis: > > Dear All, > > The reasoning of "The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical > Work, and Net History" I said above "Individuals, or collective > individuals, are in an age of the > Internet...": as it concerns with "concept", "discourse" and > "history" is supposedly inspired by my personal experiences of > reading works on and by Michel Foucault, Gilles Deleuze and Felix > Guattari. > > To those have interests with the "supposed inspiration" are pleased > to visit these links below > > https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=Foucault&x=7&y=8 > > https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=Deleuze%2C+Guattari&x=0&y=0 > > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > menulis: > > Dear All, > > The websites www.datatracker.ietf.org and www.rfc-editor.org are > historians for the services of historical archives the provide. > While a personal historian may deserve to mention, especially on > the "Internet > Architecture": > > D. Thaler documented aspects of Internet Protocol service model as > they evolved over time .... Some guidence for protocol designers an > implementers were also suggested... > > "RFC 6250: Evolution of IP Service Model" (IAB, May 2011) > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6250 > > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > menulis: > > Dear All, > > As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture" > to Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message > April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to mention "RFC 791: Internet > Protocol" (J. Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- those > obsolete and updates: which is about the name/title "Internet > Protocol" they have... > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791 > > The RFC 791 is one of Official Internet Protocol > Standards: Internet Standards --of which there are ones do not use > terms "Internet Protocol" -- for examples "Transmission Control > Protocol", "User Datagram Protocol", " Broadcasting Internet > Datagrams"... > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards > > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > menulis: > > Dear All, > > As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture" to > Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message > April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to mention "RFC 791: > Internet Protocol" (J. > Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- those obsolete and > updates: which is about the name/title "Internet Protocol" they > have.... > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791 > > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > menulis: > > Dear Hesham and All, > > There is a need for correction for the earlier message: > > The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I > missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of > "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the latter > considered complexity (control) in relation with the Internet in > large scale... > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt > > It should be: > > The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I > missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of > "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the first > considered complexity (control) in relation with the Internet in > large scale... > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt > > Regard, > Gintur Wiseno Putra > > Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > menulis: > > Dear Hesham and All, > > The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I > missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of > "Architectural Principles of the Internet" > (1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) in > relation with the Internet in large scale... > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt > > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury < > Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com> menulis: > > I think you meant RFC1958 which is updated by RFC3439. > > Hesham > > *From:* Architecture-discuss > [mailto:architecture-discuss-b ounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of > *Guntur Wiseno Putra *Sent:* Monday, April 22, 2019 6:41 AM > *To:* architecture-discuss@ietf.org; internetgovtech@iab.org; > nethistory@ietf.org > *Subject:* [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, > Technical Work and Net History: A Speci > > Dear All, > > Of the question "What is the Internet Architecture?" > mentioned in the earlier message: > > Brian. E. Carpenter's text "RFC 1985: Architectural Principles > of the Internet" mentioned about Internet protocols and their > design: May this links helpful to get arrived there at related > archives ( as the text did not use any online source but > suppposedly paper ones as references)...: > > - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search?name= > > > - https://www.rfc-editor.org/ > > Here are menus "Internet Standard", "Official > Internet Protocol Standards", and "advanced search". > > Regard, > > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > menulis: > > Dear All, > > Individuals, or collectifs of individuals, are in an age of > the Internet. It is such a presence may be approached and > sensed by many ways --even when one said that s/he had just > eat a food which a receipt was gotten by communicating by the > Internet.. > > Among others there are presences of "the Internet > Architecture", "Internet Governance and Technical Work" and > "Net History" as they represent interest-based mailing lists. > How could one get arrived into those matters (together) --such > a programmatic readership/learning: as sources and concepts > have history and discources collectives/net... ? Should we > imagine about information sources by making such a readership > based on the linkage between the three...? Thus we may say > about "The Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical > Works: a Net History" (to say "A Net History in Terms of The > Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical Work)...? > --there would be a discourse map on the special readership > which is about a co-presence of mailing lists...? --as one may > use search engines of each mailing list for related > interests...? > > To make an engagement with the programme should we go with > such tentative journeys considering parts of the special > readership...? > > For example: > > By considering the reasoning above: > > To the question on "What is the Internet Architecture?" we may > refer to (archival) sources > > "RFC 1958: Architectural Principles of the Internet" > > (Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996) > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1958 > > (Note:) > > It was a snapshot record of the principles of the Internet > Achitecture intended for general guidance and general > interest... > > It was updated by RFC 3439... > > Both the concept "Internet Architecture" and the document RFC > 1958 have history bringing readers to other relevant > sources... They supposedly also give suggestions to come to > broader or other conceptual discourses on "governance and > technical work" > > Regard, > > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > > --000000000000d59c0205878482fe Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear All,

As we came with other readings, the= n we met the one, or the ones, having similarities but also difference with= the previous ones --which may be a problem of designing such a reading, th= at accumulating readings and relating with real-time communications such as= these mailing lists and thus relating with such a track of reading:
<= div>
Here we met "RFC 3869 =C2=A0IAB Concerns Regarding = with Internet Research and Evolution" (Atkinson R. & S. Floyd eds,= Network Working Group-IAB, 2004) --one that was with certain degree of ser= iousness, to say that it had an institutionalized standard of the Internet = Architecture Board.

The document was concerned wit= h history and about the Internet research funding (section 2) but there a l= ist of open research topics (section 3) ranging from naming, routing, secur= ity, networks management, meeting the future needs and else.

=
Another we may say about this document is a matter of the Intern= et Governance as it explicitly mentioned about a non-ownership of the globa= l Internet infrastructure by a single organization affecting funding consid= erations (section 1.2) --we may say that the Internet Governance is about m= anagement of tge Internet affairs such asresearch activities...
<= br>
Here we may compare it to what B. Carpenter said in "RFC= 1958 Architectural Principles of the Internet" that nobody owns the I= nternet (section 2.4).


Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra








Dear Giorgio and All,

Forgive me if I do not understand= your message: of I did not miss it came to me as a record of the talks und= er the same title: "The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical = Work and Net History: A Special Reading": which are since the first se= nt by me until the last sent by Joe Abley

Was ther= e things I missed...?


Regard,
=
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Jumat, 26 April 2019, <giorgio.simeoli@libero.= it> menulis:
=20


Il 25 aprile 2019 alle 10.40 Hesham ElBakour= y <Hesh= am.ElBakoury@huawei.com> ha scritto:

I actually have the same = question ...

-----Original Message-----
From: John C Klensin [mail= to:john-ietf@jck.com= ]
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2019 12:36 AM
To: Guntur Wiseno Putra= <gsenopu@gmail.c= om>
Cc: Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>; internetgovtech@iab.o= rg; = architecture-discuss@ietf.org; nethistory@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Internetgovtech] = The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A S= peci

Guntur,

I've tried to following your multiple postings= , but am getting more and more confused. Yes, there are some broad principl= es that can be considered together to constitute an "Internet architec= ture". Once one gets past extremely broad principles and down to detai= ls, I doubt that there is strong consensus in the community about many of t= he details of that architecture:
there are other documents with differen= t theories and some people would claim that some of the things that are sai= d in some of the documents you have cited have not stood the test of time.<= br>Some of those principles interact with "Internet governance"; = many, including questions about who should be in charge of various resource= s once one determines that someone, or some combination of actors, actually= need to be, do not. The mailing lists you are using are appropriate for di= scussions of those issues although I think the case for cross-posting to in= ternetgovtech and architecture-discuss, much less the nethistory list, has = yet to be made.

But what I don't understand --and what is confusi= ng me more with each posting from you-- is why you are posting these notes = and
what you are trying to accomplish. Almost by definition, the
read= ers of these lists know they exist and are out there. Most such readers kno= w, or knew once, what the lists are supposed to be for. But almost everythi= ng I've read from you seems to be an explanation of the existence of an= Internet architecture and/ or an Internet governance topic together with t= he existence and availability of the lists.

Do you want something? Do= you intend to try to explain something to us that we don't know alread= y? If so, is that explanation likely to be actionable by the IETF or IAB an= d, if so, how. And, of course, what is it?

thanks,
john

--O= n Thursday, April 25, 2019 08:16 +0700 Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> wrote:=

Dear All,

The Internet architecture --the Internet= protocols and their
designs-- are in situations among which is about it= s possible
inplementations enabled by such a governance(s). That is supp= osedly a
matter of the Internet Governance suitable with what was everofficially published by the Internet Architecture Board related with
t= he release of = internetgovtech@iab.org mailing list (2013)

"to discuss topi= cs regarding the intersection of Internet governance
and IETF technical = work. In particular, this list will focus on issues
relating to Internet= governance and regulation, including the 2014 ITU
Plenipotentiary Confe= rence, and their potential to impact the future
of the Internet architec= ture".

https://iab.org/activities/internet-governance/

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Kamis, 25 April 2019, Gu= ntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
menulis:

Dear All,

D= . Thaler in his "Evolution of the IP Model" (RFC 6250) referring = IP
service model to section 2.2. of RFC 0791, RFC 1958, and section 2.1<= br>of RFC 4903 --while the document as a whole referring also to other
R= FCs.

There are also other historians and futurologs ever analysed the=
Internet architecture examplified by

RFC 3274 "The Rise of t= he Middle and the Future of End-to-End
Argument: Reflections on the Evol= ution of the Internet Architecture"
(Kempf, J. & R. Austen Eds.= , Network Working Group-IAB, 2004)

This document examined the develop= ment of end-to-end principles as it
had been applied by the Internet ove= r years.

https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3274

RFC 1827= "Toward The Future Internet Architecture" (Clark, D.
et all.,= Network Working Group, 1991)

This document represented an understand= ing that the Internet
architecture as "the grand plan behind the TC= P/IP protocol suite"
envisioned its possible evolution as there had= been increasing signs
of strains on the fundemental architecture mostly= stemming from the
continued growth of the Internet.

https://www.rfc-ed= itor.org/info/rfc1287

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

P= ada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
menulis:

Dear All,

The reasoning of "The Internet, Architecture= , Governance, Technical
Work, and Net History" I said above "I= ndividuals, or collective
individuals, are in an age of the
Internet.= ..": as it concerns with "concept", "discourse" an= d
"history" is supposedly inspired by my personal experiences = of
reading works on and by Michel Foucault, Gilles Deleuze and Felix
= Guattari.

To those have interests with the "supposed inspiration= " are pleased
to visit these links below

ht= tps://www.espacestemps.net/?s=3DFoucault&x=3D7&y=3D8

https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=3DDeleuz= e%2C+Guattari&x=3D0&y=3D0

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra<= /p>

Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
menulis:

Dear All,

The websites www.datatracker.ietf.org and www.rfc-editor.org are=
historians for the services of historical archives the provide.
Whil= e a personal historian may deserve to mention, especially on
the "I= nternet
Architecture":

D. Thaler documented aspects of Intern= et Protocol service model as
they evolved over time .... Some guidence f= or protocol designers an
implementers were also suggested...

"= ;RFC 6250: Evolution of IP Service Model" (IAB, May 2011)

https://www= .rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6250

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra<= /p>

Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
menulis:=

Dear All,

As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "= ;Internet Architecture"
to Internet protocols and their designs (me= ntioned in my message
April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to = mention "RFC 791: Internet
Protocol" (J. Postel, September 198= 1) and its histories -- those
obsolete and updates: which is about the n= ame/title "Internet
Protocol" they have...

https://www.rfc-edi= tor.org/info/rfc791

The RFC 791 is one of Official Internet = Protocol
Standards: Internet Standards --of which there are ones do not = use
terms "Internet Protocol" -- for examples "Transmissi= on Control
Protocol", "User Datagram Protocol", " Br= oadcasting Internet
Datagrams"...

https://www.rfc-editor.org/sta= ndards

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Selasa, 23 April= 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
<gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:

Dear All= ,

As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture"= ; to
Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message
Ap= ril 21st 2019): it looks "special" to mention "RFC 791:
I= nternet Protocol" (J.
Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- = those obsolete and
updates: which is about the name/title "Internet= Protocol" they
have....

https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc79= 1

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019= , Guntur Wiseno Putra
<gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:

Dear Hesham a= nd All,

There is a need for correction for the earlier message:

The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I
mi= ssed before-- was made to propose such an extension of
"Architectur= al Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the latter
considered comp= lexity (control) in relation with the Internet in
large scale...

<= a href=3D"https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt" target=3D"_blank">htt= ps://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt

It should be:

= The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I
mis= sed before-- was made to propose such an extension of
"Architectura= l Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the first
considered comple= xity (control) in relation with the Internet in
large scale...

https= ://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt

Regard,
Gintur Wise= no Putra

Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
<gsenopu@gmail.com>= menulis:

Dear Hesham and All,

The update "The= Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I
missed before-- was mad= e to propose such an extension of
"Architectural Principles of the = Internet"
(1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) inrelation with the Internet in large scale...

https://www.rfc-editor.o= rg/rfc/rfc3439.txt

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada= Senin, 22 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury <
Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com> m= enulis:

I think you meant RFC1958 which is updated by RFC= 3439.

Hesham

*From:* Architecture-discuss
[mailto:architecture-discuss-b ounces@ietf.org]= *On Behalf Of
*Guntur Wiseno Putra *Sent:* Monday, April 22, 2019 6:41 = AM
*To:* architecture-discuss@ietf.org; internetgovtech@iab.org;
nethistory@ietf.org
*Subject:= * [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance,
Technical Work and Ne= t History: A Speci

Dear All,

Of the question "What is the = Internet Architecture?"
mentioned in the earlier message:

Bri= an. E. Carpenter's text "RFC 1985: Architectural Principles
of = the Internet" mentioned about Internet protocols and their
design: = May this links helpful to get arrived there at related
archives ( as the= text did not use any online source but
suppposedly paper ones as refere= nces)...:

Here are menus "In= ternet Standard", "Official
Internet Protocol Standards"= , and "advanced search".

Regard,

Guntur Wiseno Putra<= /p>

Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
<gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:<= /p>

Dear All,

Individuals, or collectifs of individuals, are in an = age of
the Internet. It is such a presence may be approached and
sens= ed by many ways --even when one said that s/he had just
eat a food which= a receipt was gotten by communicating by the
Internet..

Among oth= ers there are presences of "the Internet
Architecture", "= Internet Governance and Technical Work" and
"Net History"= as they represent interest-based mailing lists.
How could one get arriv= ed into those matters (together) --such
a programmatic readership/learni= ng: as sources and concepts
have history and discources collectives/net.= .. ? Should we
imagine about information sources by making such a reader= ship
based on the linkage between the three...? Thus we may say
about= "The Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical
Works: a Net = History" (to say "A Net History in Terms of The
Internet Archi= tecture, Governance and Technical Work)...?
--there would be a discourse= map on the special readership
which is about a co-presence of mailing l= ists...? --as one may
use search engines of each mailing list for relate= d
interests...?

To make an engagement with the programme should we= go with
such tentative journeys considering parts of the special
rea= dership...?

For example:

By considering the reasoning above:

To the question on "What is the Internet Architecture?" we ma= y
refer to (archival) sources

"RFC 1958: Architectural Princi= ples of the Internet"

(Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996)

= https= ://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1958

(Note:)

It was a sn= apshot record of the principles of the Internet
Achitecture intended for= general guidance and general
interest...

It was updated by RFC 34= 39...

Both the concept "Internet Architecture" and the docu= ment RFC
1958 have history bringing readers to other relevant
sources= ... They supposedly also give suggestions to come to
broader or other co= nceptual discourses on "governance and
technical work"

R= egard,

Guntur Wiseno Putra

=

_______________________________________________
Architecture-= discuss mailing list
Architecture-discuss@ietf.org
https://= www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss

=20
--000000000000d59c0205878482fe-- From nobody Sun Apr 28 01:34:12 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6DAF120006; Sun, 28 Apr 2019 01:33:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y9Ss6HK6kvby; Sun, 28 Apr 2019 01:33:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x236.google.com (mail-oi1-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9D6FD12022D; Sun, 28 Apr 2019 01:33:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x236.google.com with SMTP id l203so6154122oia.3; Sun, 28 Apr 2019 01:33:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=5kAOUSK0hfUhPvxzKpjQ6WcpRudF9+qcZoQCaZyKdSI=; b=bA401Co5N0dWqHeOTbfg75i+Yd/LiWA3IPoie9VvWeK6PP99A4hAz70+E7k8WpTUQj hzpDeCD1jyh4cCCZfY1rUvTlYsBskERwq2kHx0IEiQYy4HBzSctDOeKbTl1uOOz6qNMh CQQ23K/ZDtQ2uA5qSvxkcotR6OHUIdymWl/EfAuRqwuOQ6Q1R3GS1/qplUJv3LrFSElQ EakEPY8RysHC7T7viVya3SZ5petSb/tPG7fluJN+LHzpCknAedq1xAXiM7LPhpCmUiwO ooDV4nBoZpUtuDS0xtvDkF2wiiUKjQkzRtmtdYmiC1MWkr8uCAjTooulhX/8d8RS5ov7 Zk/A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=5kAOUSK0hfUhPvxzKpjQ6WcpRudF9+qcZoQCaZyKdSI=; b=YKkNXNO+PnGJGHWMQvgO7A+0CtjLA96F1QHKGnm2czdXKQb4lHKY3r/dmxo5NFq95r XBxG4zetVb1DjF31gkvfylgUbo2tK0cPPe0NZqfjHDvqDHpU22cPULJwXVyQwZl7gfHa ekA3JltCP2xhDsUOjh5eQ4aFd3ZrAH3+y9Vf/afQNqyWt7eYxQOxB7H8oqjEgK2nyHTK 0EEJiMVzjI2Wwu93N28QQw5p0ZIECgkXsZXRWU+ZF0w3RPUj4iZosZEvl4udO5yVLXCe 8STzEfYNAEMbhxPLiI2xgeCic199SiYtc33JdMHDAqHFueF/QZTloIglVmx6P2rEp9SP udVA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAU4Ojwq9cucNoB9NYBUOT0ZkT7VAaziDYAIqP6+cllOzx2kBwZ7 pSUU+Pys7cLjrwM3s9UwYhiE/bDgJXaC+oB0WNxWfA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx6y/vehDK2FqI2irWfc5D/2pqqjAeqcytsB64NkZpoWEY41hjdLECMxJPZZdG3Z7B68TR1/VOXHesPEIxaa4g= X-Received: by 2002:aca:b144:: with SMTP id a65mr10633641oif.128.1556440431717; Sun, 28 Apr 2019 01:33:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a9d:bac:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Sun, 28 Apr 2019 01:33:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2019 15:33:51 +0700 Message-ID: To: "giorgio.simeoli@libero.it" Cc: Hesham ElBakoury , John C Klensin , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" , "internetgovtech@iab.org" , "nethistory@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000bf25a0587930738" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2019 08:33:58 -0000 --0000000000000bf25a0587930738 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear All, Naming, routing, security, network management, meeting the future needs and else mentioned in the "RFC 3868 IAB Concerns and Recommendations Regarding with Internet Research and Evolution sec. 3 (2004)" were open research topics. While "RFC 1958 Architectural Principles of the Internet (1996) regarded that the Internet Architecture was about the Internet architecture and internetworking layer for connectivity...: What are those between the two RFCs...? Would it be other chapters of a reading...? https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3869 (A link address I missed to attach to the right previous message to these mailing lists) Regard, Guntur Wiseno Putra Pada Sabtu, 27 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra menulis: > Dear All, > > As we came with other readings, then we met the one, or the ones, having > similarities but also difference with the previous ones --which may be a > problem of designing such a reading, that accumulating readings and > relating with real-time communications such as these mailing lists and thus > relating with such a track of reading: > > Here we met "RFC 3869 IAB Concerns Regarding with Internet Research and > Evolution" (Atkinson R. & S. Floyd eds, Network Working Group-IAB, 2004) > --one that was with certain degree of seriousness, to say that it had an > institutionalized standard of the Internet Architecture Board. > > The document was concerned with history and about the Internet research > funding (section 2) but there a list of open research topics (section 3) > ranging from naming, routing, security, networks management, meeting the > future needs and else. > > Another we may say about this document is a matter of the Internet > Governance as it explicitly mentioned about a non-ownership of the global > Internet infrastructure by a single organization affecting funding > considerations (section 1.2) --we may say that the Internet Governance is > about management of tge Internet affairs such asresearch activities... > > Here we may compare it to what B. Carpenter said in "RFC 1958 > Architectural Principles of the Internet" that nobody owns the Internet > (section 2.4). > > > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > > > > > > > > Dear Giorgio and All, > > Forgive me if I do not understand your message: of I did not miss it came > to me as a record of the talks under the same title: "The Internet, > Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Special > Reading": which are since the first sent by me until the last sent by Joe > Abley > > Was there things I missed...? > > > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > Pada Jumat, 26 April 2019, menulis: > >> >> Il 25 aprile 2019 alle 10.40 Hesham ElBakoury < >> Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com> ha scritto: >> >> I actually have the same question ... >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: John C Klensin [mailto:john-ietf@jck.com] >> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2019 12:36 AM >> To: Guntur Wiseno Putra >> Cc: Hesham ElBakoury ; >> internetgovtech@iab.org; architecture-discuss@ietf.org; >> nethistory@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Internetgovtech] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, >> Technical Work and Net History: A Speci >> >> Guntur, >> >> I've tried to following your multiple postings, but am getting more and >> more confused. Yes, there are some broad principles that can be considered >> together to constitute an "Internet architecture". Once one gets past >> extremely broad principles and down to details, I doubt that there is >> strong consensus in the community about many of the details of that >> architecture: >> there are other documents with different theories and some people would >> claim that some of the things that are said in some of the documents you >> have cited have not stood the test of time. >> Some of those principles interact with "Internet governance"; many, >> including questions about who should be in charge of various resources once >> one determines that someone, or some combination of actors, actually need >> to be, do not. The mailing lists you are using are appropriate for >> discussions of those issues although I think the case for cross-posting to >> internetgovtech and architecture-discuss, much less the nethistory list, >> has yet to be made. >> >> But what I don't understand --and what is confusing me more with each >> posting from you-- is why you are posting these notes and >> what you are trying to accomplish. Almost by definition, the >> readers of these lists know they exist and are out there. Most such >> readers know, or knew once, what the lists are supposed to be for. But >> almost everything I've read from you seems to be an explanation of the >> existence of an Internet architecture and/ or an Internet governance topic >> together with the existence and availability of the lists. >> >> Do you want something? Do you intend to try to explain something to us >> that we don't know already? If so, is that explanation likely to be >> actionable by the IETF or IAB and, if so, how. And, of course, what is it? >> >> thanks, >> john >> >> --On Thursday, April 25, 2019 08:16 +0700 Guntur Wiseno Putra < >> gsenopu@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Dear All, >> >> The Internet architecture --the Internet protocols and their >> designs-- are in situations among which is about its possible >> inplementations enabled by such a governance(s). That is supposedly a >> matter of the Internet Governance suitable with what was ever >> officially published by the Internet Architecture Board related with >> the release of internetgovtech@iab.org mailing list (2013) >> >> "to discuss topics regarding the intersection of Internet governance >> and IETF technical work. In particular, this list will focus on issues >> relating to Internet governance and regulation, including the 2014 ITU >> Plenipotentiary Conference, and their potential to impact the future >> of the Internet architecture". >> >> https://iab.org/activities/internet-governance/ >> >> Regard, >> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >> Pada Kamis, 25 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >> menulis: >> >> Dear All, >> >> D. Thaler in his "Evolution of the IP Model" (RFC 6250) referring IP >> service model to section 2.2. of RFC 0791, RFC 1958, and section 2.1 >> of RFC 4903 --while the document as a whole referring also to other >> RFCs. >> >> There are also other historians and futurologs ever analysed the >> Internet architecture examplified by >> >> RFC 3274 "The Rise of the Middle and the Future of End-to-End >> Argument: Reflections on the Evolution of the Internet Architecture" >> (Kempf, J. & R. Austen Eds., Network Working Group-IAB, 2004) >> >> This document examined the development of end-to-end principles as it >> had been applied by the Internet over years. >> >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3274 >> >> RFC 1827 "Toward The Future Internet Architecture" (Clark, D. >> et all., Network Working Group, 1991) >> >> This document represented an understanding that the Internet >> architecture as "the grand plan behind the TCP/IP protocol suite" >> envisioned its possible evolution as there had been increasing signs >> of strains on the fundemental architecture mostly stemming from the >> continued growth of the Internet. >> >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1287 >> >> Regard, >> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >> Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >> menulis: >> >> Dear All, >> >> The reasoning of "The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical >> Work, and Net History" I said above "Individuals, or collective >> individuals, are in an age of the >> Internet...": as it concerns with "concept", "discourse" and >> "history" is supposedly inspired by my personal experiences of >> reading works on and by Michel Foucault, Gilles Deleuze and Felix >> Guattari. >> >> To those have interests with the "supposed inspiration" are pleased >> to visit these links below >> >> https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=Foucault&x=7&y=8 >> >> https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=Deleuze%2C+Guattari&x=0&y=0 >> >> Regard, >> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >> Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >> menulis: >> >> Dear All, >> >> The websites www.datatracker.ietf.org and www.rfc-editor.org are >> historians for the services of historical archives the provide. >> While a personal historian may deserve to mention, especially on >> the "Internet >> Architecture": >> >> D. Thaler documented aspects of Internet Protocol service model as >> they evolved over time .... Some guidence for protocol designers an >> implementers were also suggested... >> >> "RFC 6250: Evolution of IP Service Model" (IAB, May 2011) >> >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6250 >> >> Regard, >> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >> menulis: >> >> Dear All, >> >> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture" >> to Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message >> April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to mention "RFC 791: Internet >> Protocol" (J. Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- those >> obsolete and updates: which is about the name/title "Internet >> Protocol" they have... >> >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791 >> >> The RFC 791 is one of Official Internet Protocol >> Standards: Internet Standards --of which there are ones do not use >> terms "Internet Protocol" -- for examples "Transmission Control >> Protocol", "User Datagram Protocol", " Broadcasting Internet >> Datagrams"... >> >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards >> >> Regard, >> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >> menulis: >> >> Dear All, >> >> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture" to >> Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message >> April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to mention "RFC 791: >> Internet Protocol" (J. >> Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- those obsolete and >> updates: which is about the name/title "Internet Protocol" they >> have.... >> >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791 >> >> Regard, >> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >> menulis: >> >> Dear Hesham and All, >> >> There is a need for correction for the earlier message: >> >> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I >> missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of >> "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the latter >> considered complexity (control) in relation with the Internet in >> large scale... >> >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt >> >> It should be: >> >> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I >> missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of >> "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the first >> considered complexity (control) in relation with the Internet in >> large scale... >> >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt >> >> Regard, >> Gintur Wiseno Putra >> >> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >> menulis: >> >> Dear Hesham and All, >> >> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I >> missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of >> "Architectural Principles of the Internet" >> (1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) in >> relation with the Internet in large scale... >> >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt >> >> Regard, >> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury < >> Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com> menulis: >> >> I think you meant RFC1958 which is updated by RFC3439. >> >> Hesham >> >> *From:* Architecture-discuss >> [mailto:architecture-discuss-b ounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of >> *Guntur Wiseno Putra *Sent:* Monday, April 22, 2019 6:41 AM >> *To:* architecture-discuss@ietf.org; internetgovtech@iab.org; >> nethistory@ietf.org >> *Subject:* [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, >> Technical Work and Net History: A Speci >> >> Dear All, >> >> Of the question "What is the Internet Architecture?" >> mentioned in the earlier message: >> >> Brian. E. Carpenter's text "RFC 1985: Architectural Principles >> of the Internet" mentioned about Internet protocols and their >> design: May this links helpful to get arrived there at related >> archives ( as the text did not use any online source but >> suppposedly paper ones as references)...: >> >> - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search?name= >> >> >> - https://www.rfc-editor.org/ >> >> Here are menus "Internet Standard", "Official >> Internet Protocol Standards", and "advanced search". >> >> Regard, >> >> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >> menulis: >> >> Dear All, >> >> Individuals, or collectifs of individuals, are in an age of >> the Internet. It is such a presence may be approached and >> sensed by many ways --even when one said that s/he had just >> eat a food which a receipt was gotten by communicating by the >> Internet.. >> >> Among others there are presences of "the Internet >> Architecture", "Internet Governance and Technical Work" and >> "Net History" as they represent interest-based mailing lists. >> How could one get arrived into those matters (together) --such >> a programmatic readership/learning: as sources and concepts >> have history and discources collectives/net... ? Should we >> imagine about information sources by making such a readership >> based on the linkage between the three...? Thus we may say >> about "The Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical >> Works: a Net History" (to say "A Net History in Terms of The >> Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical Work)...? >> --there would be a discourse map on the special readership >> which is about a co-presence of mailing lists...? --as one may >> use search engines of each mailing list for related >> interests...? >> >> To make an engagement with the programme should we go with >> such tentative journeys considering parts of the special >> readership...? >> >> For example: >> >> By considering the reasoning above: >> >> To the question on "What is the Internet Architecture?" we may >> refer to (archival) sources >> >> "RFC 1958: Architectural Principles of the Internet" >> >> (Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996) >> >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1958 >> >> (Note:) >> >> It was a snapshot record of the principles of the Internet >> Achitecture intended for general guidance and general >> interest... >> >> It was updated by RFC 3439... >> >> Both the concept "Internet Architecture" and the document RFC >> 1958 have history bringing readers to other relevant >> sources... They supposedly also give suggestions to come to >> broader or other conceptual discourses on "governance and >> technical work" >> >> Regard, >> >> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Architecture-discuss mailing list >> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss >> >> --0000000000000bf25a0587930738 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear All,


Naming, routing, security,= network management, meeting the future needs and else mentioned in the &qu= ot;RFC 3868 IAB Concerns and Recommendations Regarding with Internet Resear= ch and Evolution sec. 3 (2004)" were open research topics. While "= ;RFC 1958 Architectural Principles of the Internet (1996) regarded =C2=A0th= at the Internet Architecture was about the Internet architecture and intern= etworking layer for connectivity...: =C2=A0What are those between the two R= FCs...? Would it be other chapters of a reading...?


(A link address I= missed to attach to the right previous message to these mailing lists)


Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra<= br>
Pada Sabtu, 27 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear All,

As = we came with other readings, then we met the one, or the ones, having simil= arities but also difference with the previous ones --which may be a problem= of designing such a reading, that accumulating readings and relating with = real-time communications such as these mailing lists and thus relating with= such a track of reading:

Here we met "RFC 38= 69 =C2=A0IAB Concerns Regarding with Internet Research and Evolution" = (Atkinson R. & S. Floyd eds, Network Working Group-IAB, 2004) --one tha= t was with certain degree of seriousness, to say that it had an institution= alized standard of the Internet Architecture Board.

The document was concerned with history and about the Internet research f= unding (section 2) but there a list of open research topics (section 3) ran= ging from naming, routing, security, networks management, meeting the futur= e needs and else.

Another we may say about this do= cument is a matter of the Internet Governance as it explicitly mentioned ab= out a non-ownership of the global Internet infrastructure by a single organ= ization affecting funding considerations (section 1.2) --we may say that th= e Internet Governance is about management of tge Internet affairs such asre= search activities...

Here we may compare it to wha= t B. Carpenter said in "RFC 1958 Architectural Principles of the Inter= net" that nobody owns the Internet (section 2.4).

=

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra








Dear Giorgio and All,

F= orgive me if I do not understand your message: of I did not miss it came to= me as a record of the talks under the same title: "The Internet, Arch= itecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Special Reading&quo= t;: which are since the first sent by me until the last sent by Joe Abley

Was there things I missed...?

<= div>
Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Jumat,= 26 April 2019, <giorgio.simeoli@libero.it> menulis:
=20


Il 25 aprile 2019 alle 10.40 Hesham ElBakour= y <Hesh= am.ElBakoury@huawei.com> ha scritto:

I actually have the same = question ...

-----Original Message-----
From: John C Klensin [mail= to:john-ietf@jck.com= ]
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2019 12:36 AM
To: Guntur Wiseno Putra= <gsenopu@gmail.c= om>
Cc: Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>; internetgovtech@iab.o= rg; = architecture-discuss@ietf.org; nethistory@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Internetgovtech] = The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A S= peci

Guntur,

I've tried to following your multiple postings= , but am getting more and more confused. Yes, there are some broad principl= es that can be considered together to constitute an "Internet architec= ture". Once one gets past extremely broad principles and down to detai= ls, I doubt that there is strong consensus in the community about many of t= he details of that architecture:
there are other documents with differen= t theories and some people would claim that some of the things that are sai= d in some of the documents you have cited have not stood the test of time.<= br>Some of those principles interact with "Internet governance"; = many, including questions about who should be in charge of various resource= s once one determines that someone, or some combination of actors, actually= need to be, do not. The mailing lists you are using are appropriate for di= scussions of those issues although I think the case for cross-posting to in= ternetgovtech and architecture-discuss, much less the nethistory list, has = yet to be made.

But what I don't understand --and what is confusi= ng me more with each posting from you-- is why you are posting these notes = and
what you are trying to accomplish. Almost by definition, the
read= ers of these lists know they exist and are out there. Most such readers kno= w, or knew once, what the lists are supposed to be for. But almost everythi= ng I've read from you seems to be an explanation of the existence of an= Internet architecture and/ or an Internet governance topic together with t= he existence and availability of the lists.

Do you want something? Do= you intend to try to explain something to us that we don't know alread= y? If so, is that explanation likely to be actionable by the IETF or IAB an= d, if so, how. And, of course, what is it?

thanks,
john

--O= n Thursday, April 25, 2019 08:16 +0700 Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> wrote:=

Dear All,

The Internet architecture --the Internet= protocols and their
designs-- are in situations among which is about it= s possible
inplementations enabled by such a governance(s). That is supp= osedly a
matter of the Internet Governance suitable with what was everofficially published by the Internet Architecture Board related with
t= he release of = internetgovtech@iab.org mailing list (2013)

"to discuss topi= cs regarding the intersection of Internet governance
and IETF technical = work. In particular, this list will focus on issues
relating to Internet= governance and regulation, including the 2014 ITU
Plenipotentiary Confe= rence, and their potential to impact the future
of the Internet architec= ture".

https://iab.org/activities/internet-governance/

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Kamis, 25 April 2019, Gu= ntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
menulis:

Dear All,

D= . Thaler in his "Evolution of the IP Model" (RFC 6250) referring = IP
service model to section 2.2. of RFC 0791, RFC 1958, and section 2.1<= br>of RFC 4903 --while the document as a whole referring also to other
R= FCs.

There are also other historians and futurologs ever analysed the=
Internet architecture examplified by

RFC 3274 "The Rise of t= he Middle and the Future of End-to-End
Argument: Reflections on the Evol= ution of the Internet Architecture"
(Kempf, J. & R. Austen Eds.= , Network Working Group-IAB, 2004)

This document examined the develop= ment of end-to-end principles as it
had been applied by the Internet ove= r years.

https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3274

RFC 1827= "Toward The Future Internet Architecture" (Clark, D.
et all.,= Network Working Group, 1991)

This document represented an understand= ing that the Internet
architecture as "the grand plan behind the TC= P/IP protocol suite"
envisioned its possible evolution as there had= been increasing signs
of strains on the fundemental architecture mostly= stemming from the
continued growth of the Internet.

https://www.rfc-ed= itor.org/info/rfc1287

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

P= ada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
menulis:

Dear All,

The reasoning of "The Internet, Architecture= , Governance, Technical
Work, and Net History" I said above "I= ndividuals, or collective
individuals, are in an age of the
Internet.= ..": as it concerns with "concept", "discourse" an= d
"history" is supposedly inspired by my personal experiences = of
reading works on and by Michel Foucault, Gilles Deleuze and Felix
= Guattari.

To those have interests with the "supposed inspiration= " are pleased
to visit these links below

ht= tps://www.espacestemps.net/?s=3DFoucault&x=3D7&y=3D8

https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=3DDeleuz= e%2C+Guattari&x=3D0&y=3D0

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra<= /p>

Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
menulis:

Dear All,

The websites www.datatracker.ietf.org and www.rfc-editor.org are=
historians for the services of historical archives the provide.
Whil= e a personal historian may deserve to mention, especially on
the "I= nternet
Architecture":

D. Thaler documented aspects of Intern= et Protocol service model as
they evolved over time .... Some guidence f= or protocol designers an
implementers were also suggested...

"= ;RFC 6250: Evolution of IP Service Model" (IAB, May 2011)

https://www= .rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6250

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra<= /p>

Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
menulis:=

Dear All,

As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "= ;Internet Architecture"
to Internet protocols and their designs (me= ntioned in my message
April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to = mention "RFC 791: Internet
Protocol" (J. Postel, September 198= 1) and its histories -- those
obsolete and updates: which is about the n= ame/title "Internet
Protocol" they have...

https://www.rfc-edi= tor.org/info/rfc791

The RFC 791 is one of Official Internet = Protocol
Standards: Internet Standards --of which there are ones do not = use
terms "Internet Protocol" -- for examples "Transmissi= on Control
Protocol", "User Datagram Protocol", " Br= oadcasting Internet
Datagrams"...

https://www.rfc-editor.org/sta= ndards

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Selasa, 23 April= 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
<gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:

Dear All= ,

As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture"= ; to
Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message
Ap= ril 21st 2019): it looks "special" to mention "RFC 791:
I= nternet Protocol" (J.
Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- = those obsolete and
updates: which is about the name/title "Internet= Protocol" they
have....

https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc79= 1

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019= , Guntur Wiseno Putra
<gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:

Dear Hesham a= nd All,

There is a need for correction for the earlier message:

The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I
mi= ssed before-- was made to propose such an extension of
"Architectur= al Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the latter
considered comp= lexity (control) in relation with the Internet in
large scale...

<= a href=3D"https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt" target=3D"_blank">htt= ps://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt

It should be:

= The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I
mis= sed before-- was made to propose such an extension of
"Architectura= l Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the first
considered comple= xity (control) in relation with the Internet in
large scale...

https= ://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt

Regard,
Gintur Wise= no Putra

Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
<gsenopu@gmail.com>= menulis:

Dear Hesham and All,

The update "The= Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I
missed before-- was mad= e to propose such an extension of
"Architectural Principles of the = Internet"
(1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) inrelation with the Internet in large scale...

https://www.rfc-editor.o= rg/rfc/rfc3439.txt

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada= Senin, 22 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury <
Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com> m= enulis:

I think you meant RFC1958 which is updated by RFC= 3439.

Hesham

*From:* Architecture-discuss
[mailto:architecture-discuss-b ounces@ietf.org]= *On Behalf Of
*Guntur Wiseno Putra *Sent:* Monday, April 22, 2019 6:41 = AM
*To:* architecture-discuss@ietf.org; internetgovtech@iab.org;
nethistory@ietf.org
*Subject:= * [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance,
Technical Work and Ne= t History: A Speci

Dear All,

Of the question "What is the = Internet Architecture?"
mentioned in the earlier message:

Bri= an. E. Carpenter's text "RFC 1985: Architectural Principles
of = the Internet" mentioned about Internet protocols and their
design: = May this links helpful to get arrived there at related
archives ( as the= text did not use any online source but
suppposedly paper ones as refere= nces)...:

Here are menus "In= ternet Standard", "Official
Internet Protocol Standards"= , and "advanced search".

Regard,

Guntur Wiseno Putra<= /p>

Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
<gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:<= /p>

Dear All,

Individuals, or collectifs of individuals, are in an = age of
the Internet. It is such a presence may be approached and
sens= ed by many ways --even when one said that s/he had just
eat a food which= a receipt was gotten by communicating by the
Internet..

Among oth= ers there are presences of "the Internet
Architecture", "= Internet Governance and Technical Work" and
"Net History"= as they represent interest-based mailing lists.
How could one get arriv= ed into those matters (together) --such
a programmatic readership/learni= ng: as sources and concepts
have history and discources collectives/net.= .. ? Should we
imagine about information sources by making such a reader= ship
based on the linkage between the three...? Thus we may say
about= "The Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical
Works: a Net = History" (to say "A Net History in Terms of The
Internet Archi= tecture, Governance and Technical Work)...?
--there would be a discourse= map on the special readership
which is about a co-presence of mailing l= ists...? --as one may
use search engines of each mailing list for relate= d
interests...?

To make an engagement with the programme should we= go with
such tentative journeys considering parts of the special
rea= dership...?

For example:

By considering the reasoning above:

To the question on "What is the Internet Architecture?" we ma= y
refer to (archival) sources

"RFC 1958: Architectural Princi= ples of the Internet"

(Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996)

= https= ://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1958

(Note:)

It was a sn= apshot record of the principles of the Internet
Achitecture intended for= general guidance and general
interest...

It was updated by RFC 34= 39...

Both the concept "Internet Architecture" and the docu= ment RFC
1958 have history bringing readers to other relevant
sources= ... They supposedly also give suggestions to come to
broader or other co= nceptual discourses on "governance and
technical work"

R= egard,

Guntur Wiseno Putra

=

_______________________________________________
Architecture-= discuss mailing list
Architecture-discuss@ietf.org
https://= www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss

=20
--0000000000000bf25a0587930738-- From nobody Sun Apr 28 01:42:48 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA73312008C; Sun, 28 Apr 2019 01:42:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FcQc9WTJmBaf; Sun, 28 Apr 2019 01:42:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x233.google.com (mail-oi1-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B9B1B120006; Sun, 28 Apr 2019 01:42:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x233.google.com with SMTP id v23so5982381oif.8; Sun, 28 Apr 2019 01:42:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=f+Tnjbo6UIAzifW0+iTyeZjdF429mQUwNjlnh6D4aUU=; b=RgwiuauWo0oUIwWfWs7JnCZjF96lifBgVmzcXgHJdm/3xO+vNg0aseW+F1wroCO8rd tpFS02ooPFYKnTNoHCXeqlt5Y5YK53LkpCPKlNuVtpA3DFwR3x624lpG9GKYyyibAPRg qkOzvghnFlCjz+f4B/G3Am9Am1Xm4JKkypj3s3zAmUOlAQbQHSXz36B46c56tHARXYnO lzNfs7RqXDfG8BE0U9pCxRftXwdLFSKeafylHrBq31HqK8Iz18r7G0jh39rul52jP+jK KuPIu2P7RNKg1ypj240j+JQjT1oboPE1Zx49pD3e7ApfHWQjBcdu/o8AjXJhMnooPILk tELg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=f+Tnjbo6UIAzifW0+iTyeZjdF429mQUwNjlnh6D4aUU=; b=hBk/bzX2nfqcuRgT8vHnqkIVd/6gFefQueVP9H0ViQzoJAS3qnFKLZUo6laV2gtv1v SyT1nAyTqQCNBUqJdUXudWzS3bKN9kZ7LikD5AjxHEFRsp3sLWLIMxc7t0EvUlb+0X+o IGDhqVXsBC7ZEn1fGuByYGro7T9SfBHziBK4OVviT5szNlZDYQfJjrqitGWDYtOvkam5 pUEq8eoCU5J3xblzyuZqxY/o5ERXENQtAUHsQ/LbY2h8WRMelSBzkj1pk1UYx75r3LGu r5P8b8r0Z2vGHGjZiu+EC4Jd72MMNT1y4frDsArEKT9twncA8jX2kI62VaYEBpFNKQUS B0dQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWuGkKIWFZouK9auRgI1we6aCPThfDjcIRY9auRK1K8HxPKUkwA RdBxfP82mMrcgUFK1vjBwLIVu/UwdCym6dMq+6Y= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwjCGjSD4mZJ9fzWcasjNlScQZ4WIzUWarpWKoFeTOzuZDpHJhfMnXuoYmBd+Z2MlgryGfYghRxyJY1n8+D5v0= X-Received: by 2002:aca:b587:: with SMTP id e129mr11663062oif.143.1556440946945; Sun, 28 Apr 2019 01:42:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a9d:bac:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Sun, 28 Apr 2019 01:42:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2019 15:42:26 +0700 Message-ID: To: "giorgio.simeoli@libero.it" Cc: Hesham ElBakoury , John C Klensin , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" , "internetgovtech@iab.org" , "nethistory@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c1b64705879325b1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2019 08:42:33 -0000 --000000000000c1b64705879325b1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear All, A statement need to correct (from the previous message): Naming, routing, security, network management, meeting the future needs and else mentioned in the "RFC 3868 IAB Concerns and Recommendations Regarding with Internet Research and Evolution sec. 3 (2004)" were open research topics. While "RFC 1958 Architectural Principles of the Internet (1996) regarded that the Internet Architecture was about the Internet architecture and internetworking layer for connectivity...: What are those between the two RFCs...? Would it be other chapters of a reading...? https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3869 (A link address I missed to attach to the right previous message to these mailing lists) It should be: Naming, routing, security, network management, meeting the future needs and else mentioned in the "RFC 3868 IAB Concerns and Recommendations Regarding with Internet Research and Evolution sec. 3 (2004)" were open research topics. While "RFC 1958 Architectural Principles of the Internet (1996) regarded that the Internet Architecture was about ***the Internet protocols and their designs and internetworking layer for connectivity...***: What are those between the two RFCs...? Would it be other chapters of a reading...? https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3869 (A link address I missed to attach to the right previous message to these mailing lists) Regard, Guntur Wiseno Putra Pada Minggu, 28 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra menulis: > Dear All, > > > Naming, routing, security, network management, meeting the future needs > and else mentioned in the "RFC 3868 IAB Concerns and Recommendations > Regarding with Internet Research and Evolution sec. 3 (2004)" were open > research topics. While "RFC 1958 Architectural Principles of the Internet > (1996) regarded that the Internet Architecture was about the Internet > architecture and internetworking layer for connectivity...: What are those > between the two RFCs...? Would it be other chapters of a reading...? > > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3869 > (A link address I missed to attach to the right previous message to these > mailing lists) > > > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > Pada Sabtu, 27 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > menulis: > >> Dear All, >> >> As we came with other readings, then we met the one, or the ones, having >> similarities but also difference with the previous ones --which may be a >> problem of designing such a reading, that accumulating readings and >> relating with real-time communications such as these mailing lists and thus >> relating with such a track of reading: >> >> Here we met "RFC 3869 IAB Concerns Regarding with Internet Research and >> Evolution" (Atkinson R. & S. Floyd eds, Network Working Group-IAB, 2004) >> --one that was with certain degree of seriousness, to say that it had an >> institutionalized standard of the Internet Architecture Board. >> >> The document was concerned with history and about the Internet research >> funding (section 2) but there a list of open research topics (section 3) >> ranging from naming, routing, security, networks management, meeting the >> future needs and else. >> >> Another we may say about this document is a matter of the Internet >> Governance as it explicitly mentioned about a non-ownership of the global >> Internet infrastructure by a single organization affecting funding >> considerations (section 1.2) --we may say that the Internet Governance is >> about management of tge Internet affairs such asresearch activities... >> >> Here we may compare it to what B. Carpenter said in "RFC 1958 >> Architectural Principles of the Internet" that nobody owns the Internet >> (section 2.4). >> >> >> Regard, >> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Dear Giorgio and All, >> >> Forgive me if I do not understand your message: of I did not miss it came >> to me as a record of the talks under the same title: "The Internet, >> Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Special >> Reading": which are since the first sent by me until the last sent by Joe >> Abley >> >> Was there things I missed...? >> >> >> Regard, >> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >> Pada Jumat, 26 April 2019, menulis: >> >>> >>> Il 25 aprile 2019 alle 10.40 Hesham ElBakoury < >>> Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com> ha scritto: >>> >>> I actually have the same question ... >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: John C Klensin [mailto:john-ietf@jck.com] >>> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2019 12:36 AM >>> To: Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> Cc: Hesham ElBakoury ; >>> internetgovtech@iab.org; architecture-discuss@ietf.org; >>> nethistory@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [Internetgovtech] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, >>> Technical Work and Net History: A Speci >>> >>> Guntur, >>> >>> I've tried to following your multiple postings, but am getting more and >>> more confused. Yes, there are some broad principles that can be considered >>> together to constitute an "Internet architecture". Once one gets past >>> extremely broad principles and down to details, I doubt that there is >>> strong consensus in the community about many of the details of that >>> architecture: >>> there are other documents with different theories and some people would >>> claim that some of the things that are said in some of the documents you >>> have cited have not stood the test of time. >>> Some of those principles interact with "Internet governance"; many, >>> including questions about who should be in charge of various resources once >>> one determines that someone, or some combination of actors, actually need >>> to be, do not. The mailing lists you are using are appropriate for >>> discussions of those issues although I think the case for cross-posting to >>> internetgovtech and architecture-discuss, much less the nethistory list, >>> has yet to be made. >>> >>> But what I don't understand --and what is confusing me more with each >>> posting from you-- is why you are posting these notes and >>> what you are trying to accomplish. Almost by definition, the >>> readers of these lists know they exist and are out there. Most such >>> readers know, or knew once, what the lists are supposed to be for. But >>> almost everything I've read from you seems to be an explanation of the >>> existence of an Internet architecture and/ or an Internet governance topic >>> together with the existence and availability of the lists. >>> >>> Do you want something? Do you intend to try to explain something to us >>> that we don't know already? If so, is that explanation likely to be >>> actionable by the IETF or IAB and, if so, how. And, of course, what is it? >>> >>> thanks, >>> john >>> >>> --On Thursday, April 25, 2019 08:16 +0700 Guntur Wiseno Putra < >>> gsenopu@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Dear All, >>> >>> The Internet architecture --the Internet protocols and their >>> designs-- are in situations among which is about its possible >>> inplementations enabled by such a governance(s). That is supposedly a >>> matter of the Internet Governance suitable with what was ever >>> officially published by the Internet Architecture Board related with >>> the release of internetgovtech@iab.org mailing list (2013) >>> >>> "to discuss topics regarding the intersection of Internet governance >>> and IETF technical work. In particular, this list will focus on issues >>> relating to Internet governance and regulation, including the 2014 ITU >>> Plenipotentiary Conference, and their potential to impact the future >>> of the Internet architecture". >>> >>> https://iab.org/activities/internet-governance/ >>> >>> Regard, >>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> >>> Pada Kamis, 25 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> menulis: >>> >>> Dear All, >>> >>> D. Thaler in his "Evolution of the IP Model" (RFC 6250) referring IP >>> service model to section 2.2. of RFC 0791, RFC 1958, and section 2.1 >>> of RFC 4903 --while the document as a whole referring also to other >>> RFCs. >>> >>> There are also other historians and futurologs ever analysed the >>> Internet architecture examplified by >>> >>> RFC 3274 "The Rise of the Middle and the Future of End-to-End >>> Argument: Reflections on the Evolution of the Internet Architecture" >>> (Kempf, J. & R. Austen Eds., Network Working Group-IAB, 2004) >>> >>> This document examined the development of end-to-end principles as it >>> had been applied by the Internet over years. >>> >>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3274 >>> >>> RFC 1827 "Toward The Future Internet Architecture" (Clark, D. >>> et all., Network Working Group, 1991) >>> >>> This document represented an understanding that the Internet >>> architecture as "the grand plan behind the TCP/IP protocol suite" >>> envisioned its possible evolution as there had been increasing signs >>> of strains on the fundemental architecture mostly stemming from the >>> continued growth of the Internet. >>> >>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1287 >>> >>> Regard, >>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> >>> Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> menulis: >>> >>> Dear All, >>> >>> The reasoning of "The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical >>> Work, and Net History" I said above "Individuals, or collective >>> individuals, are in an age of the >>> Internet...": as it concerns with "concept", "discourse" and >>> "history" is supposedly inspired by my personal experiences of >>> reading works on and by Michel Foucault, Gilles Deleuze and Felix >>> Guattari. >>> >>> To those have interests with the "supposed inspiration" are pleased >>> to visit these links below >>> >>> https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=Foucault&x=7&y=8 >>> >>> https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=Deleuze%2C+Guattari&x=0&y=0 >>> >>> Regard, >>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> >>> Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> menulis: >>> >>> Dear All, >>> >>> The websites www.datatracker.ietf.org and www.rfc-editor.org are >>> historians for the services of historical archives the provide. >>> While a personal historian may deserve to mention, especially on >>> the "Internet >>> Architecture": >>> >>> D. Thaler documented aspects of Internet Protocol service model as >>> they evolved over time .... Some guidence for protocol designers an >>> implementers were also suggested... >>> >>> "RFC 6250: Evolution of IP Service Model" (IAB, May 2011) >>> >>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6250 >>> >>> Regard, >>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> >>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> menulis: >>> >>> Dear All, >>> >>> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture" >>> to Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message >>> April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to mention "RFC 791: Internet >>> Protocol" (J. Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- those >>> obsolete and updates: which is about the name/title "Internet >>> Protocol" they have... >>> >>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791 >>> >>> The RFC 791 is one of Official Internet Protocol >>> Standards: Internet Standards --of which there are ones do not use >>> terms "Internet Protocol" -- for examples "Transmission Control >>> Protocol", "User Datagram Protocol", " Broadcasting Internet >>> Datagrams"... >>> >>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards >>> >>> Regard, >>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> >>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> menulis: >>> >>> Dear All, >>> >>> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture" to >>> Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message >>> April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to mention "RFC 791: >>> Internet Protocol" (J. >>> Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- those obsolete and >>> updates: which is about the name/title "Internet Protocol" they >>> have.... >>> >>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791 >>> >>> Regard, >>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> >>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> menulis: >>> >>> Dear Hesham and All, >>> >>> There is a need for correction for the earlier message: >>> >>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I >>> missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of >>> "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the latter >>> considered complexity (control) in relation with the Internet in >>> large scale... >>> >>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt >>> >>> It should be: >>> >>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I >>> missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of >>> "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the first >>> considered complexity (control) in relation with the Internet in >>> large scale... >>> >>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt >>> >>> Regard, >>> Gintur Wiseno Putra >>> >>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> menulis: >>> >>> Dear Hesham and All, >>> >>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I >>> missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of >>> "Architectural Principles of the Internet" >>> (1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) in >>> relation with the Internet in large scale... >>> >>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt >>> >>> Regard, >>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> >>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury < >>> Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com> menulis: >>> >>> I think you meant RFC1958 which is updated by RFC3439. >>> >>> Hesham >>> >>> *From:* Architecture-discuss >>> [mailto:architecture-discuss-b ounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of >>> *Guntur Wiseno Putra *Sent:* Monday, April 22, 2019 6:41 AM >>> *To:* architecture-discuss@ietf.org; internetgovtech@iab.org; >>> nethistory@ietf.org >>> *Subject:* [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, >>> Technical Work and Net History: A Speci >>> >>> Dear All, >>> >>> Of the question "What is the Internet Architecture?" >>> mentioned in the earlier message: >>> >>> Brian. E. Carpenter's text "RFC 1985: Architectural Principles >>> of the Internet" mentioned about Internet protocols and their >>> design: May this links helpful to get arrived there at related >>> archives ( as the text did not use any online source but >>> suppposedly paper ones as references)...: >>> >>> - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search?name= >>> >>> >>> - https://www.rfc-editor.org/ >>> >>> Here are menus "Internet Standard", "Official >>> Internet Protocol Standards", and "advanced search". >>> >>> Regard, >>> >>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> >>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> menulis: >>> >>> Dear All, >>> >>> Individuals, or collectifs of individuals, are in an age of >>> the Internet. It is such a presence may be approached and >>> sensed by many ways --even when one said that s/he had just >>> eat a food which a receipt was gotten by communicating by the >>> Internet.. >>> >>> Among others there are presences of "the Internet >>> Architecture", "Internet Governance and Technical Work" and >>> "Net History" as they represent interest-based mailing lists. >>> How could one get arrived into those matters (together) --such >>> a programmatic readership/learning: as sources and concepts >>> have history and discources collectives/net... ? Should we >>> imagine about information sources by making such a readership >>> based on the linkage between the three...? Thus we may say >>> about "The Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical >>> Works: a Net History" (to say "A Net History in Terms of The >>> Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical Work)...? >>> --there would be a discourse map on the special readership >>> which is about a co-presence of mailing lists...? --as one may >>> use search engines of each mailing list for related >>> interests...? >>> >>> To make an engagement with the programme should we go with >>> such tentative journeys considering parts of the special >>> readership...? >>> >>> For example: >>> >>> By considering the reasoning above: >>> >>> To the question on "What is the Internet Architecture?" we may >>> refer to (archival) sources >>> >>> "RFC 1958: Architectural Principles of the Internet" >>> >>> (Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996) >>> >>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1958 >>> >>> (Note:) >>> >>> It was a snapshot record of the principles of the Internet >>> Achitecture intended for general guidance and general >>> interest... >>> >>> It was updated by RFC 3439... >>> >>> Both the concept "Internet Architecture" and the document RFC >>> 1958 have history bringing readers to other relevant >>> sources... They supposedly also give suggestions to come to >>> broader or other conceptual discourses on "governance and >>> technical work" >>> >>> Regard, >>> >>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Architecture-discuss mailing list >>> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss >>> >>> --000000000000c1b64705879325b1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear All,

A statement need to correct (from the previous= message):

Naming, routing, security, network= management, meeting the future needs and else mentioned in the "RFC 3= 868 IAB Concerns and Recommendations Regarding with Internet Research and E= volution sec. 3 (2004)" were open research topics. While "RFC 195= 8 Architectural Principles of the Internet (1996) regarded =C2=A0that the I= nternet Architecture was about the Internet architecture and internetworkin= g layer for connectivity...: =C2=A0What are those between the two RFCs...? = Would it be other chapters of a reading...?


(A= link address I missed to attach to the right previous message to these mai= ling lists)


It should be:


Naming, routing, security, networ= k management, meeting the future needs and else mentioned in the "RFC = 3868 IAB Concerns and Recommendations Regarding with Internet Research and = Evolution sec. 3 (2004)" were open research topics. While "RFC 19= 58 Architectural Principles of the Internet (1996) regarded =C2=A0that the = Internet Architecture was about ***the Internet protocols and their designs= and internetworking layer for connectivity...***: =C2=A0What are those bet= ween the two RFCs...? Would it be other chapters of a reading...?


(A link address I missed to attach to the right previo= us message to these mailing lists)




Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra
Pada Minggu, 28 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear All,


Naming, rout= ing, security, network management, meeting the future needs and else mentio= ned in the "RFC 3868 IAB Concerns and Recommendations Regarding with I= nternet Research and Evolution sec. 3 (2004)" were open research topic= s. While "RFC 1958 Architectural Principles of the Internet (1996) reg= arded =C2=A0that the Internet Architecture was about the Internet architect= ure and internetworking layer for connectivity...: =C2=A0What are those bet= ween the two RFCs...? Would it be other chapters of a reading...?


(A link address I missed to attach to the right previo= us message to these mailing lists)


= Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Sabtu, 27 April 2019, Gun= tur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
= Dear All,

As we came with other readings, then we = met the one, or the ones, having similarities but also difference with the = previous ones --which may be a problem of designing such a reading, that ac= cumulating readings and relating with real-time communications such as thes= e mailing lists and thus relating with such a track of reading:
<= br>
Here we met "RFC 3869 =C2=A0IAB Concerns Regarding with = Internet Research and Evolution" (Atkinson R. & S. Floyd eds, Netw= ork Working Group-IAB, 2004) --one that was with certain degree of seriousn= ess, to say that it had an institutionalized standard of the Internet Archi= tecture Board.

The document was concerned with his= tory and about the Internet research funding (section 2) but there a list o= f open research topics (section 3) ranging from naming, routing, security, = networks management, meeting the future needs and else.

Another we may say about this document is a matter of the Internet Go= vernance as it explicitly mentioned about a non-ownership of the global Int= ernet infrastructure by a single organization affecting funding considerati= ons (section 1.2) --we may say that the Internet Governance is about manage= ment of tge Internet affairs such asresearch activities...

Here we may compare it to what B. Carpenter said in "RFC 1958= Architectural Principles of the Internet" that nobody owns the Intern= et (section 2.4).


Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra








Dear= Giorgio and All,

Forgive me if I do not understand your= message: of I did not miss it came to me as a record of the talks under th= e same title: "The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work = and Net History: A Special Reading": which are since the first sent by= me until the last sent by Joe Abley

Was there thi= ngs I missed...?


Regard,
= Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Jumat, 26 April 2019, <giorgio.simeoli@libero.it> menulis:
=20


Il 25 aprile 2019 alle 10.40 Hesham ElBakour= y <Hesh= am.ElBakoury@huawei.com> ha scritto:

I actually have the same = question ...

-----Original Message-----
From: John C Klensin [mail= to:john-ietf@jck.com= ]
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2019 12:36 AM
To: Guntur Wiseno Putra= <gsenopu@gmail.c= om>
Cc: Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>; internetgovtech@iab.o= rg; = architecture-discuss@ietf.org; nethistory@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Internetgovtech] = The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A S= peci

Guntur,

I've tried to following your multiple postings= , but am getting more and more confused. Yes, there are some broad principl= es that can be considered together to constitute an "Internet architec= ture". Once one gets past extremely broad principles and down to detai= ls, I doubt that there is strong consensus in the community about many of t= he details of that architecture:
there are other documents with differen= t theories and some people would claim that some of the things that are sai= d in some of the documents you have cited have not stood the test of time.<= br>Some of those principles interact with "Internet governance"; = many, including questions about who should be in charge of various resource= s once one determines that someone, or some combination of actors, actually= need to be, do not. The mailing lists you are using are appropriate for di= scussions of those issues although I think the case for cross-posting to in= ternetgovtech and architecture-discuss, much less the nethistory list, has = yet to be made.

But what I don't understand --and what is confusi= ng me more with each posting from you-- is why you are posting these notes = and
what you are trying to accomplish. Almost by definition, the
read= ers of these lists know they exist and are out there. Most such readers kno= w, or knew once, what the lists are supposed to be for. But almost everythi= ng I've read from you seems to be an explanation of the existence of an= Internet architecture and/ or an Internet governance topic together with t= he existence and availability of the lists.

Do you want something? Do= you intend to try to explain something to us that we don't know alread= y? If so, is that explanation likely to be actionable by the IETF or IAB an= d, if so, how. And, of course, what is it?

thanks,
john

--O= n Thursday, April 25, 2019 08:16 +0700 Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> wrote:=

Dear All,

The Internet architecture --the Internet= protocols and their
designs-- are in situations among which is about it= s possible
inplementations enabled by such a governance(s). That is supp= osedly a
matter of the Internet Governance suitable with what was everofficially published by the Internet Architecture Board related with
t= he release of = internetgovtech@iab.org mailing list (2013)

"to discuss topi= cs regarding the intersection of Internet governance
and IETF technical = work. In particular, this list will focus on issues
relating to Internet= governance and regulation, including the 2014 ITU
Plenipotentiary Confe= rence, and their potential to impact the future
of the Internet architec= ture".

https://iab.org/activities/internet-governance/

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Kamis, 25 April 2019, Gu= ntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
menulis:

Dear All,

D= . Thaler in his "Evolution of the IP Model" (RFC 6250) referring = IP
service model to section 2.2. of RFC 0791, RFC 1958, and section 2.1<= br>of RFC 4903 --while the document as a whole referring also to other
R= FCs.

There are also other historians and futurologs ever analysed the=
Internet architecture examplified by

RFC 3274 "The Rise of t= he Middle and the Future of End-to-End
Argument: Reflections on the Evol= ution of the Internet Architecture"
(Kempf, J. & R. Austen Eds.= , Network Working Group-IAB, 2004)

This document examined the develop= ment of end-to-end principles as it
had been applied by the Internet ove= r years.

https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3274

RFC 1827= "Toward The Future Internet Architecture" (Clark, D.
et all.,= Network Working Group, 1991)

This document represented an understand= ing that the Internet
architecture as "the grand plan behind the TC= P/IP protocol suite"
envisioned its possible evolution as there had= been increasing signs
of strains on the fundemental architecture mostly= stemming from the
continued growth of the Internet.

https://www.rfc-ed= itor.org/info/rfc1287

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

P= ada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
menulis:

Dear All,

The reasoning of "The Internet, Architecture= , Governance, Technical
Work, and Net History" I said above "I= ndividuals, or collective
individuals, are in an age of the
Internet.= ..": as it concerns with "concept", "discourse" an= d
"history" is supposedly inspired by my personal experiences = of
reading works on and by Michel Foucault, Gilles Deleuze and Felix
= Guattari.

To those have interests with the "supposed inspiration= " are pleased
to visit these links below

ht= tps://www.espacestemps.net/?s=3DFoucault&x=3D7&y=3D8

https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=3DDeleuz= e%2C+Guattari&x=3D0&y=3D0

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra<= /p>

Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
menulis:

Dear All,

The websites www.datatracker.ietf.org and www.rfc-editor.org are=
historians for the services of historical archives the provide.
Whil= e a personal historian may deserve to mention, especially on
the "I= nternet
Architecture":

D. Thaler documented aspects of Intern= et Protocol service model as
they evolved over time .... Some guidence f= or protocol designers an
implementers were also suggested...

"= ;RFC 6250: Evolution of IP Service Model" (IAB, May 2011)

https://www= .rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6250

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra<= /p>

Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
menulis:=

Dear All,

As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "= ;Internet Architecture"
to Internet protocols and their designs (me= ntioned in my message
April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to = mention "RFC 791: Internet
Protocol" (J. Postel, September 198= 1) and its histories -- those
obsolete and updates: which is about the n= ame/title "Internet
Protocol" they have...

https://www.rfc-edi= tor.org/info/rfc791

The RFC 791 is one of Official Internet = Protocol
Standards: Internet Standards --of which there are ones do not = use
terms "Internet Protocol" -- for examples "Transmissi= on Control
Protocol", "User Datagram Protocol", " Br= oadcasting Internet
Datagrams"...

https://www.rfc-editor.org/sta= ndards

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Selasa, 23 April= 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
<gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:

Dear All= ,

As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture"= ; to
Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message
Ap= ril 21st 2019): it looks "special" to mention "RFC 791:
I= nternet Protocol" (J.
Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- = those obsolete and
updates: which is about the name/title "Internet= Protocol" they
have....

https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc79= 1

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019= , Guntur Wiseno Putra
<gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:

Dear Hesham a= nd All,

There is a need for correction for the earlier message:

The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I
mi= ssed before-- was made to propose such an extension of
"Architectur= al Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the latter
considered comp= lexity (control) in relation with the Internet in
large scale...

<= a href=3D"https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt" target=3D"_blank">htt= ps://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt

It should be:

= The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I
mis= sed before-- was made to propose such an extension of
"Architectura= l Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the first
considered comple= xity (control) in relation with the Internet in
large scale...

https= ://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt

Regard,
Gintur Wise= no Putra

Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
<gsenopu@gmail.com>= menulis:

Dear Hesham and All,

The update "The= Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I
missed before-- was mad= e to propose such an extension of
"Architectural Principles of the = Internet"
(1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) inrelation with the Internet in large scale...

https://www.rfc-editor.o= rg/rfc/rfc3439.txt

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada= Senin, 22 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury <
Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com> m= enulis:

I think you meant RFC1958 which is updated by RFC= 3439.

Hesham

*From:* Architecture-discuss
[mailto:architecture-discuss-b ounces@ietf.org]= *On Behalf Of
*Guntur Wiseno Putra *Sent:* Monday, April 22, 2019 6:41 = AM
*To:* architecture-discuss@ietf.org; internetgovtech@iab.org;
nethistory@ietf.org
*Subject:= * [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance,
Technical Work and Ne= t History: A Speci

Dear All,

Of the question "What is the = Internet Architecture?"
mentioned in the earlier message:

Bri= an. E. Carpenter's text "RFC 1985: Architectural Principles
of = the Internet" mentioned about Internet protocols and their
design: = May this links helpful to get arrived there at related
archives ( as the= text did not use any online source but
suppposedly paper ones as refere= nces)...:

Here are menus "In= ternet Standard", "Official
Internet Protocol Standards"= , and "advanced search".

Regard,

Guntur Wiseno Putra<= /p>

Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
<gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:<= /p>

Dear All,

Individuals, or collectifs of individuals, are in an = age of
the Internet. It is such a presence may be approached and
sens= ed by many ways --even when one said that s/he had just
eat a food which= a receipt was gotten by communicating by the
Internet..

Among oth= ers there are presences of "the Internet
Architecture", "= Internet Governance and Technical Work" and
"Net History"= as they represent interest-based mailing lists.
How could one get arriv= ed into those matters (together) --such
a programmatic readership/learni= ng: as sources and concepts
have history and discources collectives/net.= .. ? Should we
imagine about information sources by making such a reader= ship
based on the linkage between the three...? Thus we may say
about= "The Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical
Works: a Net = History" (to say "A Net History in Terms of The
Internet Archi= tecture, Governance and Technical Work)...?
--there would be a discourse= map on the special readership
which is about a co-presence of mailing l= ists...? --as one may
use search engines of each mailing list for relate= d
interests...?

To make an engagement with the programme should we= go with
such tentative journeys considering parts of the special
rea= dership...?

For example:

By considering the reasoning above:

To the question on "What is the Internet Architecture?" we ma= y
refer to (archival) sources

"RFC 1958: Architectural Princi= ples of the Internet"

(Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996)

= https= ://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1958

(Note:)

It was a sn= apshot record of the principles of the Internet
Achitecture intended for= general guidance and general
interest...

It was updated by RFC 34= 39...

Both the concept "Internet Architecture" and the docu= ment RFC
1958 have history bringing readers to other relevant
sources= ... They supposedly also give suggestions to come to
broader or other co= nceptual discourses on "governance and
technical work"

R= egard,

Guntur Wiseno Putra

=

_______________________________________________
Architecture-= discuss mailing list
Architecture-discuss@ietf.org
https://= www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss

=20
--000000000000c1b64705879325b1-- From nobody Mon Apr 29 22:43:08 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C0D2120108 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 22:43:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ly_Num28LMuo for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 22:43:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x334.google.com (mail-ot1-x334.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::334]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC1CB120098 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 22:43:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x334.google.com with SMTP id g24so6246944otq.2 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 22:43:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=X/mv8l82VaZZS1S7wpqI4qsgc13sAIp8kTPPLHceSHE=; b=YKzQAaMgXnpJaiAnkCdIO13BC1iDjnkyZMn5xN3MZQVEWThhG1q0ku+LhkCmCosa1l O/re9BhN0h2nvJpcH5T/LSzIi2CvBKPnJaGDe6MG5X9nTFs1Yx24Y5BmRlKQUzGhz1bK QMWcQ9b1gRxGXO2jQNJnO4GQUCt1qIqoKvqgQmxss8iFhHCZinb+HpNmI450K9LQVL8i z8T2zjkn6OzTu6eKCNqsNjZDFlGpTYd/YJQ+eYjjg8YaWt862x+Tvjyorq40HHP1IUPX ATKwkHMlu6tnKf2gXRTuGeDvzUzxMyjNBV7V7EYyb48IhUk6z9dp1tZDGnOI/K1hu/Qq FMig== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=X/mv8l82VaZZS1S7wpqI4qsgc13sAIp8kTPPLHceSHE=; b=slrW0OB+bhIGGc+eZB0+avlnK3uH4lLkv27dpUGEz9D2ceIHBC0KYRwCeFxXAALgZV +yEMRtYnURG5cTqu008NR4uPhHEMs1ODJa3SuJO2f2xArgWHVjcIZMIcRHXnPW2V3Fv9 NGMMQkrQopQWaGQc0Uf9LiIEjd7BXUUIxqKojMN1KhEWeI7M02WyqNm5XcRB6a4m9Zz3 T6DiWxuxoF9MPTxZcQ48Qp5VawE4FXxR3eoSDpU0v20L+tr8ayXTdqaXc/ajZYqtAdf0 KCkXQaCLH9QlNM73WGxoy/xRyxs3bCQgGtruqCQ0jy0CffrxWxIVsForGl/okuRkQ+Ea YKrw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAW4xK2W/ew5EmB1r+38RgGpaIT0VVDHoUqYwKeNbI6RJtaj81OR qR9CUG/Rhvw7k/OG289lQupoATdB4BBs0RShx2JV0g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy7LjNrjbNFENt3ZTDy3dhrHes6aVy2SKlL4eyLyqv2MryPRrFl+D9fEXJw26fv0ITZ8yBSJu8DqPW+tmjU4rY= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:130:: with SMTP id 45mr1600818otu.364.1556602984072; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 22:43:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a9d:bac:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 22:43:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 12:43:03 +0700 Message-ID: To: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ec0b5a0587b8dfbe" Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] Internet and Architecture as Art X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 05:43:07 -0000 --000000000000ec0b5a0587b8dfbe Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear All, To say "Architecture: Form, Space and Order": would it be legitimated to say "The Internet Architecture: Form, Space and Order"...? --thus it is about "Cyber Form, Cyber Space, and Cyber Order"...? An article supposedly guides a reading journey: https://www.espacestemps.net/articles/cyber-geography-research/ The hypertext-linked address suggested (http://www.cybergeography.org) brought us to this page: https://personalpages.manchester.ac.uk/staff/m.dodge/cybergeography/ Regard, Guntur Wiseno Putra Pada Kamis, 18 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra menulis: > Dear All, > > (I wish that I do not repeate what were ever talked with in this > architecture-discuss@ietf.org.) > > If we may say about "Architecture" is/as "Art" --regarding what Francis > D.K. Ching said in his "Architecture: Form, Space and Order", John Wiley & > Sons Inc, 2007, p. IX--, then "Internet Architecture" is/as "Internet Art". > > Thus supposedly this research --I finded out in such a "Library Tour"-- > may work for the connection: > > ".art: Situating Internet Art in the Traditional Institution of > Contemporary Art" by Karen A. Verschooren (MIT, 2007) > > http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/39149 > > discussing key players, institutions, and discourses on aesthetics, > economy, and exhibition methodologies to frame a sociological analysis... > > "Based on the definitions of Steve Dietz and Alexander Galloway and > inspired by Lisa > Gitelman's understanding of protocols, I will thus in this volume define > Internet art as > that set of artworks, which uses Internet technology for its creation and > presentation, and > is characterized by a play with protocols, be they technical, economic, > social or cultural". p.21 > > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > > Note: To the matter I also ever sent the message to Information > Architecture Community Group "Information, Architecture, and Art (April > 18th 2019). > --000000000000ec0b5a0587b8dfbe Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear All,


To say "Architecture: Form= , Space and Order": would it be legitimated to say "The Internet = Architecture: Form, Space and Order"...? --thus it is about "Cybe= r Form, Cyber Space, and Cyber Order"...?

An article supposedly guides a reading journey:



Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra =C2=A0


Pada Kamis, 18 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear All,

(I wish t= hat I do not repeate what were ever talked with in this architecture-discuss@ietf.o= rg.)

If we may say about "Arch= itecture" is/as "Art" --regarding what Francis D.K. Ching sa= id in his "Architecture: Form, Space and Order", John Wiley &= Sons Inc, 2007, p. IX--, then "Internet Architecture" is/as &quo= t;Internet Art".=C2=A0

Thus supposedly this= research --I finded out in such a "Library Tour"-- may work for = the connection:

".art: Situating Internet A= rt in the Traditional Institution of Contemporary Art" by Karen A. Ver= schooren (MIT, 2007)


discussing key players,= institutions, and discourses on aesthetics, economy, and exhibition method= ologies to frame a sociological analysis...

=
"Based on the definitions of Steve Dietz and Alexander Galloway a= nd inspired by Lisa
Gitelman's understanding of protocols, I = will thus in this volume define Internet art as
that set of artwo= rks, which uses Internet technology for its creation and presentation, and<= /div>
is characterized by a play with protocols, be they technical, eco= nomic, social or cultural". p.21

Regard= ,
Guntur Wiseno Putra


Not= e: To the matter I also ever sent the message to Information Architecture C= ommunity Group "Information, Architecture, and Art (April 18th 2019).<= /div>
--000000000000ec0b5a0587b8dfbe-- From nobody Mon Apr 29 23:42:28 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 775CC12012F for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 23:42:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3CJkU86xR1ti for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 23:42:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x32b.google.com (mail-ot1-x32b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D516B120098 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 23:42:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x32b.google.com with SMTP id 77so4779119otu.13 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 23:42:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=DOFgccOElS5Gm94y/5Yb69P2RSDNHB+lOh8l3xCqadE=; b=KLEVJvrjA9y0oZldiIivlwqtTOE+pNYLLc2obBoUjfNXVv/Q2EBvzju944Z27XU1IS nyrFkRuUFkKOd7SySzJh8/+NYzQN4GJmHDRHoMlvpNzG0QOj9HWftk9KTHGQz0nMJV0E PwxUngjdJlhv0wHfbIu8EetDkAeTjvHMRyY2Rrpw4qBH11DchpaFJCcnIes1oFMfO6ZD e05nqcyHtN/p/d0Rl7MvuK21aXv9bNv6I/s6NeEanAm8R9pSpr7RDLc/jb+PhV3mYBX7 ooLK86AFHMC1O7pJgwk4qvJjwrQ/C7nIJsvZV9exK/d82rvmBemjHiCFI8uWgYqhP6/s C1Kg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=DOFgccOElS5Gm94y/5Yb69P2RSDNHB+lOh8l3xCqadE=; b=fQkCwX5ehA9QzgsKDs+9I0jVx9kGFRfEmF/eOwC/98yUn8/aWiVMUApD6sD36J70mO KjpAZ44f7WBX4xxdq2uQ981aqv1iN06LmDKrd7NOxaPewWnkG0PziSi3vmqfwDrOaIP5 TUqLrFDa53wTKUIn+1hUwLv1plmCZTmiPgrH+6GgpdbD95Dkx2I3lI3lddo0Cq4O3jM2 zh6G89VGosxY0dzz6+SLcakb6+zSxNWjtYInpsnoai8NquFYUy/O7RzOzdiZBgg0XF/G Ep1TIzP1JuLP2HuSWrx79K3X27l3RacRxxT9vWUjFsEGadUyFybvNB+Xm4yK0J6erkpI Paxw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUCdqYl3/t9VWn2m40EdYIa4hUSXlYl+aG5hsKBsG2lUDxBn5Ik /0vInpwVc5NqWg4IKnXGp1lzayqYKZ21Gmx/jNVVSA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyYiBV32syTuZi7TO2XDths7thPXp40cHIGKRqUjr1pTbJosbMTSLoYWYWLL71Ysk//vVfBhByEEogbpTkZkQM= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:130:: with SMTP id 45mr1743826otu.364.1556606542964; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 23:42:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a9d:bac:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Mon, 29 Apr 2019 23:42:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 13:42:22 +0700 Message-ID: To: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000c6a9b0587b9b4e8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Internet and Architecture as Art X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 06:42:26 -0000 --0000000000000c6a9b0587b9b4e8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear All, "Cyberspace", tussle and the evolution of the network's technical architecture: it is in "Tussle in Cyberspace: Defining Tomorrow's Internet" (Clarck, D. D et all, IEE/ACM Transactions on Networking, 2005) http://groups.csail.mit.edu/ana/Publications/PubPDFs/Tussle%20in%20Cyberspace%20Defining%20Tomorrows%20Internet%202005's%20Internet.pdf Regard, Guntur Wiseno Putra Pada Selasa, 30 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra menulis: > Dear All, > > > To say "Architecture: Form, Space and Order": would it be legitimated to > say "The Internet Architecture: Form, Space and Order"...? --thus it is > about "Cyber Form, Cyber Space, and Cyber Order"...? > > > An article supposedly guides a reading journey: > > https://www.espacestemps.net/articles/cyber-geography-research/ > > The hypertext-linked address suggested (http://www.cybergeography.org) > brought us to this page: > > https://personalpages.manchester.ac.uk/staff/m.dodge/cybergeography/ > > > > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > > Pada Kamis, 18 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > menulis: > >> Dear All, >> >> (I wish that I do not repeate what were ever talked with in this >> architecture-discuss@ietf.org.) >> >> If we may say about "Architecture" is/as "Art" --regarding what Francis >> D.K. Ching said in his "Architecture: Form, Space and Order", John Wiley & >> Sons Inc, 2007, p. IX--, then "Internet Architecture" is/as "Internet Art". >> >> Thus supposedly this research --I finded out in such a "Library Tour"-- >> may work for the connection: >> >> ".art: Situating Internet Art in the Traditional Institution of >> Contemporary Art" by Karen A. Verschooren (MIT, 2007) >> >> http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/39149 >> >> discussing key players, institutions, and discourses on aesthetics, >> economy, and exhibition methodologies to frame a sociological analysis... >> >> "Based on the definitions of Steve Dietz and Alexander Galloway and >> inspired by Lisa >> Gitelman's understanding of protocols, I will thus in this volume define >> Internet art as >> that set of artworks, which uses Internet technology for its creation and >> presentation, and >> is characterized by a play with protocols, be they technical, economic, >> social or cultural". p.21 >> >> Regard, >> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >> >> Note: To the matter I also ever sent the message to Information >> Architecture Community Group "Information, Architecture, and Art (April >> 18th 2019). >> > --0000000000000c6a9b0587b9b4e8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear All,



"Cyberspace= ", tussle and the evolution of the network's technical architectur= e: it is in "Tussle in Cyberspace: Defining Tomorrow's Internet&qu= ot; (Clarck, D. D et all, IEE/ACM Transactions on Networking, 2005)



Regard,=C2=A0
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Selasa, 30 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno= Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> m= enulis:
Dear All,


=
To say "Architecture: Form, Space and Order": would it= be legitimated to say "The Internet Architecture: Form, Space and Ord= er"...? --thus it is about "Cyber Form, Cyber Space, and Cyber Or= der"...?


An article supposedly= guides a reading journey:


The hypertext-linked address suggested (http://www.cybergeogra= phy.org) brought us to this page:




Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra =C2=A0

<= div>
Pada Kamis, 18 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>= menulis:
Dear All,

(I wish that I do not repeate what were ever talked with in this <= a href=3D"mailto:architecture-discuss@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">architect= ure-discuss@ietf.org.)

If we may sa= y about "Architecture" is/as "Art" --regarding what Fra= ncis D.K. Ching said in his "Architecture: Form, Space and Order"= , John Wiley & Sons Inc, 2007, p. IX--, then "Internet Architectur= e" is/as "Internet Art".=C2=A0

Th= us supposedly this research --I finded out in such a "Library Tour&quo= t;-- may work for the connection:

".art: Si= tuating Internet Art in the Traditional Institution of Contemporary Art&quo= t; by Karen A. Verschooren (MIT, 2007)


dis= cussing key players, institutions, and discourses on aesthetics, economy, a= nd exhibition methodologies to frame a sociological analysis...
=

"Based on the definitions of Steve Dietz and = Alexander Galloway and inspired by Lisa
Gitelman's understand= ing of protocols, I will thus in this volume define Internet art as
that set of artworks, which uses Internet technology for its creation an= d presentation, and
is characterized by a play with protocols, be= they technical, economic, social or cultural". p.21
<= br>
Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra


Note: To the matter I also ever sent the message to Inform= ation Architecture Community Group "Information, Architecture, and Art= (April 18th 2019).
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