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From: IAB Executive Administrative Manager <execd@iab.org>
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Subject: [arch-d] IAB Adoption of draft-ietf-iasa2-rfc6220bis-03
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The IAB will discuss adoption of draft-ietf-iasa2-rfc6220bis-03 at its 
meeting on 2019-07-10.

The draft can be found here: 
 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-iasa2-rfc6220bis-03

The agenda for the meeting will be posted 48 hours ahead of the meeting here: 
https://www.iab.org/wiki/index.php/Agenda

Feedback about this draft can be sent in response to this mail on 
architecture-discuss@ietf.org, or to the IAB directly at iab@iab.org.


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To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org, iab@iab.org
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From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 08:41:01 +1200
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Subject: Re: [arch-d] Call for Comment: <draft-iab-fiftyyears-00> (Fifty Years of RFCs)
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Hi,

I think this is ready for publication, and timely. It's been quite thoroughly
reviewed on the rfc-interest list.

Regards
   Brian Carpenter

On 11-Jul-19 04:22, IAB Executive Administrative Manager wrote:
> This is an announcement of an IETF-wide Call for Comment on 
> draft-iab-fiftyyears-00.
> 
> The document is being considered for publication as an Informational RFC 
> within the IAB stream, and is available for inspection at:
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-fiftyyears/>
> 
> The Call for Comment will last until 2019-08-07. Please send comments to
> architecture-discuss@ietf.org and iab@iab.org.
> 
> Abstract
> 
>    This RFC marks the fiftieth anniversary for the RFC Series.  It
>    includes both retrospective material from individuals involved at key
>    inflection points, as well as a review of the current state of
>    affairs.  It concludes with thoughts on possibilities for the next
>    fifty years for the Series.  This document updates the perspectives
>    offered in RFCs 2555 and 5540.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> IETF-Announce mailing list
> IETF-Announce@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce
> 


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From: Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 13:31:33 +0700
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To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Cc: Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net>,  "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" <architecture-discuss@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [arch-d] Chaff in protocols
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Dear architecture-disxuss,

If it makes an interest:

The concept of "grease" mentioned in the earlier messages regarded with
situations of protocols --their possibilities, their directions/paths --in
relation with extensions, thus with changed systems.

In such a matter I find this paper proposed an initiative for situations of
protocols --which was about a practice having a potential to generate
additional value of systems already operating:



   1.

   arXiv:1011.5739 <https://arxiv.org/abs/1011.5739>

   cs.IT cs.NI

   Protocol Coding through Reordering of User Resources: Applications and
   Capacity Results

   Authors: Petar Popovski
   <https://arxiv.org/search/?searchtype=author&query=Popovski%2C+P>, Zoran
   Utkovski
   <https://arxiv.org/search/?searchtype=author&query=Utkovski%2C+Z>

   Abstract: While there are continuous efforts to introduce new
   communicationsystems and standards, it is legitimate to ask the
   question: how can one send additional bits by minimally changing the
   systems that are already operating? This is of a significant practical
   interest, since it has a potential to generate additional value of the
   systems through, for example, introduction of new devices and only a
   software update of the access points or base stations, without incurring
   additional cost for infrastructure hardware installation. The place to look
   for such an opportunity is the communication protocol and we use the term
   *protocol coding* to refer to strategies for sending information by using
   the degrees of freedom available when one needs to decide the actions taken
   by a particular communication protocol. In this paper we consider protocol
   coding that gives a rise to *secondary communication channels*, defined by
   combinatorial ordering of the user resources (packets, channels) in a
   primary (legacy) communication system...

   Submitted 1 February, 2012; v1 submitted 26 November, 2010; originally
   announced November 2010.

   Comments: Replaced with a two-part paper



Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Minggu, 30 Juni 2019, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
menulis:

> On 27-Jun-19 16:13, Martin Thomson wrote:
>
> > Esteemed colleagues,
> >
> > The IAB is looking for historical examples of deliberate additions to
> > a protocol that are added not to enable new behaviour, but to test
> > that the ability to do so remains viable.
> >
> > This comes up in the context of assessing the concept of "grease" (see
> > draft-ietf-tls-grease), a practice of adding meaningless extension
> > points to messages in the hope that it will reveal, and perhaps
> > prevent, intolerance toward real extensions.  This is a practice we
> > have seen deployed with some success in TLS.  That has produced some
> > enthusiasm about the practice.  I think that it would be fair to say
> > that the IAB maintains some reservations about the general
> > applicability of the technique.
> >
> > Are there protocols (in either specification or deployment) that have
> > experimented with this sort of thing in the past?
>
> This isn't exactly what you're describing, but
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7872 (Observations on the Dropping of
> Packets with IPv6 Extension Headers in the Real World) seems relevant.
> IMHO, IPv6 extension headers are an *unintentional* form of chaff by their
> design.
>
> Recent proposals for piggy-backed OAM options seem to be continue this.
> See draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options,
> draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-deployment.
>   "In order for IOAM to work in IPv6 networks, IOAM MUST be explicitly
>    enabled per interface on every node within the IOAM domain.  Unless a
>    particular interface is explicitly enabled (i.e. explicitly
>    configured) for IOAM, a router MUST drop packets which contain
>    extension headers carrying IOAM data-fields."
>
> Whoops, there's another limited domain protocol. All limited domain
> protocols become potential chaff outside their domain.
>
> Apart from that, I wonder whether you don't need to dive into the history
> of formal OSI conformance testing to find examples. All I recall personally
> is a converse example: the anecdote of an OSI TP4 implementation that
> passed a conformance test with flying colours because whatever it received,
> it sent back a RESET, which according to the standard was allowed at any
> time. No doubt it would still have passed even in the presence of undefined
> extensions.
>
>    Brian
>
> >
> > The concept of fuzzing software isn't new (see
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzing) and testing for resilience to
> > unusual behaviour is similarly well-established (e.g.,
> > https://github.com/Netflix/chaosmonkey).  But are there cases of this
> > in network protocols prior to its use in TLS?
> >
> > Regards,
> > Martin
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Architecture-discuss mailing list
> > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Architecture-discuss mailing list
> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss
>

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Dear architecture-disxuss,=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>If it makes an interest=
:</div><div><br></div><div>The concept of &quot;grease&quot; mentioned in t=
he earlier messages regarded with situations of protocols --their possibili=
ties, their directions/paths --in relation with extensions, thus with chang=
ed systems.</div><div><br></div><div>In such a matter I find this paper pro=
posed an initiative for situations of protocols --which was about a practic=
e having a potential to generate additional value of systems already operat=
ing:</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><ol class=3D"breathe-horizonta=
l" start=3D"5001" style=3D"box-sizing:inherit;margin:1em 0px 1em 2em;paddin=
g:0px;list-style-position:outside;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:&#39;Open=
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,sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:21px"><li class=3D"arxiv-result" sty=
le=3D"box-sizing:inherit;margin:0.25em 0px 1.25em;padding:0px"><div class=
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x 0.25em;padding:0px;display:inline-block!important;font-size:1.05em;font-w=
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tyle=3D"box-sizing:inherit;color:rgb(0,104,172);border-bottom-width:1px;bor=
der-bottom-style:solid;border-bottom-color:transparent">arXiv:1011.5739</a>=
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rit">=C2=A0=C2=A0</span></p>=C2=A0<div class=3D"tags is-inline-block" style=
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lvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;border-top-left-radius:4px;bor=
der-top-right-radius:4px;border-bottom-right-radius:4px;border-bottom-left-=
radius:4px;color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline-flex;font-size:0.85rem;hei=
ght:1.25rem;line-height:1.5;padding-left:0.75em;padding-right:0.75em;white-=
space:nowrap;margin-bottom:0.5rem;margin-right:0.5rem;background-color:rgb(=
0,104,172)">cs.IT</span>=C2=A0<span class=3D"tag is-small is-grey tooltip i=
s-tooltip-top" style=3D"box-sizing:inherit;font-style:inherit;font-weight:i=
nherit;font-family:&#39;Lucida Grande&#39;,&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helveti=
ca,Arial,sans-serif;border-top-left-radius:4px;border-top-right-radius:4px;=
border-bottom-right-radius:4px;border-bottom-left-radius:4px;display:inline=
-flex;font-size:0.85rem;height:1.25rem;line-height:1.5;padding-left:0.75em;=
padding-right:0.75em;white-space:nowrap;margin-bottom:0.5rem;background-col=
or:rgb(245,245,245)">cs.NI</span></div></div><p class=3D"title is-5 mathjax=
" style=3D"box-sizing:inherit;margin:0px 0px 0.25em;padding:0px;word-break:=
break-word;color:rgb(45,45,45);font-size:1.25rem;font-weight:600;line-heigh=
t:1.25em">Protocol Coding through Reordering of User Resources: Application=
s and Capacity Results</p><p class=3D"authors" style=3D"box-sizing:inherit;=
margin:0px 0px 0.25em;padding:0px"><span class=3D"has-text-black-bis has-te=
xt-weight-semibold" style=3D"box-sizing:inherit;font-style:inherit;font-wei=
ght:600!important;color:rgb(18,18,18)!important">Authors:</span>=C2=A0<a hr=
ef=3D"https://arxiv.org/search/?searchtype=3Dauthor&amp;query=3DPopovski%2C=
+P" style=3D"box-sizing:inherit;color:rgb(0,104,172);border-bottom-width:1p=
x;border-bottom-style:solid;border-bottom-color:transparent">Petar Popovski=
</a>,=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://arxiv.org/search/?searchtype=3Dauthor&amp;que=
ry=3DUtkovski%2C+Z" style=3D"box-sizing:inherit;color:rgb(0,104,172);border=
-bottom-width:1px;border-bottom-style:solid;border-bottom-color:transparent=
">Zoran Utkovski</a></p><p class=3D"abstract mathjax" style=3D"box-sizing:i=
nherit;margin:0px 0px 0.25em;padding:0px"><span class=3D"search-hit" style=
=3D"box-sizing:inherit;font-style:inherit;font-weight:bold;color:rgb(40,121=
,22)!important;background-color:rgb(238,255,232)!important">Abstract</span>=
:=C2=A0<span class=3D"abstract-full has-text-grey-dark mathjax" id=3D"1011.=
5739v2-abstract-full" style=3D"box-sizing:inherit;font-style:inherit;font-w=
eight:inherit;display:inline">While there are continuous efforts to introdu=
ce new communication<span class=3D"search-hit mathjax" style=3D"box-sizing:=
inherit;font-style:inherit;font-weight:bold;color:rgb(40,121,22)!important;=
background-color:rgb(238,255,232)!important">systems</span>=C2=A0and standa=
rds, it is legitimate to ask the question: how can one send additional bits=
 by minimally changing the<span class=3D"search-hit mathjax" style=3D"box-s=
izing:inherit;font-style:inherit;font-weight:bold;color:rgb(40,121,22)!impo=
rtant;background-color:rgb(238,255,232)!important">systems</span>=C2=A0that=
 are already=C2=A0<span class=3D"search-hit mathjax" style=3D"box-sizing:in=
herit;font-style:inherit;font-weight:bold;color:rgb(40,121,22)!important;ba=
ckground-color:rgb(238,255,232)!important">operating</span>? This is of a s=
ignificant practical interest, since it has a potential to generate additio=
nal value of the=C2=A0<span class=3D"search-hit mathjax" style=3D"box-sizin=
g:inherit;font-style:inherit;font-weight:bold;color:rgb(40,121,22)!importan=
t;background-color:rgb(238,255,232)!important">systems</span>=C2=A0through,=
 for example, introduction of new devices and only a software update of the=
 access points or base stations, without incurring additional cost for infr=
astructure hardware installation. The place to look for such an opportunity=
 is the communication protocol and we use the term *protocol coding* to ref=
er to strategies for sending information by using the degrees of freedom av=
ailable when one needs to decide the actions taken by a particular communic=
ation protocol. In this paper we consider protocol coding that gives a rise=
 to *secondary communication channels*, defined by combinatorial ordering o=
f the user resources (packets, channels) in a primary (legacy) communicatio=
n=C2=A0<span class=3D"search-hit mathjax" style=3D"box-sizing:inherit;font-=
style:inherit;font-weight:bold;color:rgb(40,121,22)!important;background-co=
lor:rgb(238,255,232)!important">system</span>...</span></p><p class=3D"is-s=
ize-7" style=3D"box-sizing:inherit;margin:0px 0px 0.25em;padding:0px;font-s=
ize:0.85rem!important"><span class=3D"has-text-black-bis has-text-weight-se=
mibold" style=3D"box-sizing:inherit;font-style:inherit;font-weight:600!impo=
rtant;color:rgb(18,18,18)!important">Submitted</span>=C2=A01 February, 2012=
;=C2=A0<span class=3D"has-text-black-bis has-text-weight-semibold" style=3D=
"box-sizing:inherit;font-style:inherit;font-weight:600!important;color:rgb(=
18,18,18)!important">v1</span>=C2=A0submitted 26 November, 2010;=C2=A0<span=
 class=3D"has-text-black-bis has-text-weight-semibold" style=3D"box-sizing:=
inherit;font-style:inherit;font-weight:600!important;color:rgb(18,18,18)!im=
portant">originally announced</span>=C2=A0November 2010.</p><p class=3D"com=
ments is-size-7" style=3D"box-sizing:inherit;margin:0px 0px 0.25em;padding:=
0px;font-size:0.85rem!important"><span class=3D"has-text-black-bis has-text=
-weight-semibold" style=3D"box-sizing:inherit;font-style:inherit;font-weigh=
t:600!important;color:rgb(18,18,18)!important">Comments:</span>=C2=A0<span =
class=3D"has-text-grey-dark mathjax" style=3D"box-sizing:inherit;font-style=
:inherit;font-weight:inherit">Replaced with a two-part paper</span></p></li=
></ol></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Regard,</div><div>Guntur Wis=
eno Putra<br><br>Pada Minggu, 30 Juni 2019, Brian E Carpenter &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
 menulis:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;b=
order-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On 27-Jun-19 16:13, Martin Thom=
son wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; Esteemed colleagues,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The IAB is looking for historical examples of deliberate additions to<=
br>
&gt; a protocol that are added not to enable new behaviour, but to test<br>
&gt; that the ability to do so remains viable.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; This comes up in the context of assessing the concept of &quot;grease&=
quot; (see<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-tls-grease), a practice of adding meaningless extension<br>
&gt; points to messages in the hope that it will reveal, and perhaps<br>
&gt; prevent, intolerance toward real extensions.=C2=A0 This is a practice =
we<br>
&gt; have seen deployed with some success in TLS.=C2=A0 That has produced s=
ome<br>
&gt; enthusiasm about the practice.=C2=A0 I think that it would be fair to =
say<br>
&gt; that the IAB maintains some reservations about the general<br>
&gt; applicability of the technique.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Are there protocols (in either specification or deployment) that have<=
br>
&gt; experimented with this sort of thing in the past?<br>
<br>
This isn&#39;t exactly what you&#39;re describing, but <a href=3D"https://t=
ools.ietf.org/html/rfc7872" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/<=
wbr>rfc7872</a> (Observations on the Dropping of Packets with IPv6 Extensio=
n Headers in the Real World) seems relevant. IMHO, IPv6 extension headers a=
re an *unintentional* form of chaff by their design.<br>
<br>
Recent proposals for piggy-backed OAM options seem to be continue this. See=
 draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-<wbr>ipv6-options, draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-=
ioam-<wbr>ipv6-deployment.<br>
=C2=A0 &quot;In order for IOAM to work in IPv6 networks, IOAM MUST be expli=
citly<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0enabled per interface on every node within the IOAM domain.=C2=
=A0 Unless a<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0particular interface is explicitly enabled (i.e. explicitly<br=
>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0configured) for IOAM, a router MUST drop packets which contain=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0extension headers carrying IOAM data-fields.&quot;<br>
<br>
Whoops, there&#39;s another limited domain protocol. All limited domain pro=
tocols become potential chaff outside their domain.<br>
<br>
Apart from that, I wonder whether you don&#39;t need to dive into the histo=
ry of formal OSI conformance testing to find examples. All I recall persona=
lly is a converse example: the anecdote of an OSI TP4 implementation that p=
assed a conformance test with flying colours because whatever it received, =
it sent back a RESET, which according to the standard was allowed at any ti=
me. No doubt it would still have passed even in the presence of undefined e=
xtensions.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian<br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The concept of fuzzing software isn&#39;t new (see<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzing" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/<wbr>Fuzzing</a>) and testing for resilience to=
<br>
&gt; unusual behaviour is similarly well-established (e.g.,<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://github.com/Netflix/chaosmonkey" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://github.com/Netflix/<wbr>chaosmonkey</a>).=C2=A0 But are there cases =
of this<br>
&gt; in network protocols prior to its use in TLS?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; Martin<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
&gt; Architecture-discuss mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Architecture-discuss@ietf.org">Architecture-discuss@=
ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/architecture-=
discuss</a><br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Architecture-discuss mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Architecture-discuss@ietf.org">Architecture-discuss@ietf.=
org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/architecture-discu=
ss</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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References: <a33aad56-7ca9-4913-98a7-dd96113815e7@www.fastmail.com> <CANMZLAbfkh+cNanqBExWOe=O6TspnufCnQKt=CF_aK__xDC3Mg@mail.gmail.com> <5d84a5a6-41b7-d302-607b-0b0cd7ec554c@gmail.com> <CAKi_AEtkDjLmpd6=bxiX9nCLf6FjaMp-DpdMydONxtMjyHtN8w@mail.gmail.com>
From: Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 19:51:01 +0700
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To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Cc: Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net>,  "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" <architecture-discuss@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [arch-d] Chaff in protocols
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Dear architecture-discuss,

Forgive me if I missed things: the paper below supposedly planned a thing
more or less similar with the one I mentioned above --with different
nuances-- as it concerned with an analytical consideration on "Complex
Systems" and "Behaviors of Elements":

arXiv:nlin/0312026 <https://arxiv.org/abs/nlin/0312026>  [pdf
<https://arxiv.org/pdf/nlin/0312026>, ps <https://arxiv.org/ps/nlin/0312026=
>
, other <https://arxiv.org/format/nlin/0312026>]
nlin.AO cond-mat.dis-nn
doi10.1002/cplx.20045  <https://doi.org/10.1002/cplx.20045>

On the emergence of complexsystems on the basis of the coordination of
complex behaviors of their elements

Authors: Fatihcan M. Atay
<https://arxiv.org/search/?searchtype=3Dauthor&query=3DAtay%2C+F+M>, J=C3=
=BCrgen Jost
<https://arxiv.org/search/?searchtype=3Dauthor&query=3DJost%2C+J>

Abstract: We argue that the coordination of the activities of individual
complex agents enables a system to develop and sustain complexity at a
higher level. We exemplify relevant mechanisms through computersimulations
of a toy system, a coupled map lattice with transmission delays. The
coordination here is achieved through the synchronization of the chaotic
operationsof the individual elements, and on the basis of this, regular
behavior at a longer temporal scale emerges that is inaccessible to the
uncoupled individual dynamics.


Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Rabu, 17 Juli 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:

> Dear architecture-disxuss,
>
> If it makes an interest:
>
> The concept of "grease" mentioned in the earlier messages regarded with
> situations of protocols --their possibilities, their directions/paths --i=
n
> relation with extensions, thus with changed systems.
>
> In such a matter I find this paper proposed an initiative for situations
> of protocols --which was about a practice having a potential to generate
> additional value of systems already operating:
>
>
>
>    1.
>
>    arXiv:1011.5739 <https://arxiv.org/abs/1011.5739>
>
>    cs.IT cs.NI
>
>    Protocol Coding through Reordering of User Resources: Applications and
>    Capacity Results
>
>    Authors: Petar Popovski
>    <https://arxiv.org/search/?searchtype=3Dauthor&query=3DPopovski%2C+P>,=
 Zoran
>    Utkovski
>    <https://arxiv.org/search/?searchtype=3Dauthor&query=3DUtkovski%2C+Z>
>
>    Abstract: While there are continuous efforts to introduce new
>    communicationsystems and standards, it is legitimate to ask the
>    question: how can one send additional bits by minimally changing the
>    systems that are already operating? This is of a significant practical
>    interest, since it has a potential to generate additional value of the
>    systems through, for example, introduction of new devices and only a
>    software update of the access points or base stations, without incurri=
ng
>    additional cost for infrastructure hardware installation. The place to=
 look
>    for such an opportunity is the communication protocol and we use the t=
erm
>    *protocol coding* to refer to strategies for sending information by us=
ing
>    the degrees of freedom available when one needs to decide the actions =
taken
>    by a particular communication protocol. In this paper we consider prot=
ocol
>    coding that gives a rise to *secondary communication channels*, define=
d by
>    combinatorial ordering of the user resources (packets, channels) in a
>    primary (legacy) communication system...
>
>    Submitted 1 February, 2012; v1 submitted 26 November, 2010; originally
>    announced November 2010.
>
>    Comments: Replaced with a two-part paper
>
>
>
> Regard,
> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>
> Pada Minggu, 30 Juni 2019, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com=
>
> menulis:
>
>> On 27-Jun-19 16:13, Martin Thomson wrote:
>>
>> > Esteemed colleagues,
>> >
>> > The IAB is looking for historical examples of deliberate additions to
>> > a protocol that are added not to enable new behaviour, but to test
>> > that the ability to do so remains viable.
>> >
>> > This comes up in the context of assessing the concept of "grease" (see
>> > draft-ietf-tls-grease), a practice of adding meaningless extension
>> > points to messages in the hope that it will reveal, and perhaps
>> > prevent, intolerance toward real extensions.  This is a practice we
>> > have seen deployed with some success in TLS.  That has produced some
>> > enthusiasm about the practice.  I think that it would be fair to say
>> > that the IAB maintains some reservations about the general
>> > applicability of the technique.
>> >
>> > Are there protocols (in either specification or deployment) that have
>> > experimented with this sort of thing in the past?
>>
>> This isn't exactly what you're describing, but
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7872 (Observations on the Dropping of
>> Packets with IPv6 Extension Headers in the Real World) seems relevant.
>> IMHO, IPv6 extension headers are an *unintentional* form of chaff by the=
ir
>> design.
>>
>> Recent proposals for piggy-backed OAM options seem to be continue this.
>> See draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options,
>> draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-deployment.
>>   "In order for IOAM to work in IPv6 networks, IOAM MUST be explicitly
>>    enabled per interface on every node within the IOAM domain.  Unless a
>>    particular interface is explicitly enabled (i.e. explicitly
>>    configured) for IOAM, a router MUST drop packets which contain
>>    extension headers carrying IOAM data-fields."
>>
>> Whoops, there's another limited domain protocol. All limited domain
>> protocols become potential chaff outside their domain.
>>
>> Apart from that, I wonder whether you don't need to dive into the histor=
y
>> of formal OSI conformance testing to find examples. All I recall persona=
lly
>> is a converse example: the anecdote of an OSI TP4 implementation that
>> passed a conformance test with flying colours because whatever it receiv=
ed,
>> it sent back a RESET, which according to the standard was allowed at any
>> time. No doubt it would still have passed even in the presence of undefi=
ned
>> extensions.
>>
>>    Brian
>>
>> >
>> > The concept of fuzzing software isn't new (see
>> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzing) and testing for resilience to
>> > unusual behaviour is similarly well-established (e.g.,
>> > https://github.com/Netflix/chaosmonkey).  But are there cases of this
>> > in network protocols prior to its use in TLS?
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Martin
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Architecture-discuss mailing list
>> > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org
>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Architecture-discuss mailing list
>> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss
>>
>

--0000000000006dbe4b058e306900
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear architecture-discuss,<div><br></div><div>Forgive me if I missed things=
: the paper below supposedly planned a thing more or less similar with the =
one I mentioned above --with different nuances-- as it concerned with an an=
alytical consideration on &quot;Complex Systems&quot; and &quot;Behaviors o=
f Elements&quot;:</div><div><br></div><div><div style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51=
);font-family:&#39;Open Sans&#39;,&#39;Lucida Grande&#39;,&#39;Helvetica Ne=
ue&#39;,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:21px;margin:0=
px!important"><p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0.25em;padding:0px;font-size:1.05e=
m;font-weight:600;line-height:1.25em;display:inline-block!important"><a hre=
f=3D"https://arxiv.org/abs/nlin/0312026" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:r=
gb(0,104,172);border-bottom-width:1px;border-bottom-style:solid;border-bott=
om-color:transparent">arXiv:nlin/0312026</a>=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-style=
:inherit;font-weight:inherit">=C2=A0[<a href=3D"https://arxiv.org/pdf/nlin/=
0312026" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:rgb(0,104,172);border-bottom-widt=
h:1px;border-bottom-style:solid;border-bottom-color:transparent">pdf</a>,=
=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://arxiv.org/ps/nlin/0312026" target=3D"_blank" style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,104,172);border-bottom-width:1px;border-bottom-style:solid;=
border-bottom-color:transparent">ps</a>,=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://arxiv.org/=
format/nlin/0312026" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:rgb(0,104,172);border=
-bottom-width:1px;border-bottom-style:solid;border-bottom-color:transparent=
"><wbr>other</a>]=C2=A0</span></p><div style=3D"display:flex;margin-bottom:=
0px"><span style=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-family:&#39=
;Lucida Grande&#39;,&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;bor=
der-top-left-radius:4px;border-top-right-radius:4px;border-bottom-right-rad=
ius:4px;border-bottom-left-radius:4px;color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline=
-flex;font-size:0.85rem;height:1.25rem;line-height:1.5;padding-left:0.75em;=
padding-right:0.75em;white-space:nowrap;margin-bottom:0.5rem;margin-right:0=
.5rem;background-color:rgb(0,104,172)">nlin.AO</span>=C2=A0<span style=3D"f=
ont-style:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-family:&#39;Lucida Grande&#39;,&=
#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;border-top-left-radius:4=
px;border-top-right-radius:4px;border-bottom-right-radius:4px;border-bottom=
-left-radius:4px;display:inline-flex;font-size:0.85rem;height:1.25rem;line-=
height:1.5;padding-left:0.75em;padding-right:0.75em;white-space:nowrap;marg=
in-bottom:0.5rem;background-color:rgb(245,245,245)">cond-mat.dis-nn</span><=
/div><div style=3D"margin-left:0.5rem;display:inline-block!important"><div =
style=3D"display:flex;margin-bottom:0px"><span style=3D"font-style:inherit;=
font-weight:inherit;font-size:0.85rem;border-top-left-radius:4px;border-top=
-right-radius:0px;border-bottom-right-radius:0px;border-bottom-left-radius:=
4px;color:rgb(245,245,245);display:inline-flex;height:1.25rem;line-height:1=
.5;padding-left:0.75em;padding-right:0.75em;white-space:nowrap;margin-botto=
m:0.5rem;margin-right:0px;background-color:rgb(45,45,45)">doi</span><span s=
tyle=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-size:0.85rem;border-top=
-left-radius:0px;border-top-right-radius:4px;border-bottom-right-radius:4px=
;border-bottom-left-radius:0px;color:rgb(45,45,45);display:inline-flex;heig=
ht:1.25rem;line-height:1.5;padding-left:0.75em;padding-right:0.75em;white-s=
pace:nowrap;margin-bottom:0.5rem;margin-right:0px;background-color:rgb(245,=
245,245)"><a href=3D"https://doi.org/10.1002/cplx.20045" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color:rgb(0,104,172);border-bottom-width:1px;border-bottom-style:s=
olid;border-bottom-color:transparent">10.1002/cplx.20045=C2=A0<span style=
=3D"display:inline-block;font-stretch:normal;line-height:1;font-family:Font=
Awesome;font-size:inherit"></span></a></span></div></div></div><p style=3D"=
font-family:&#39;Open Sans&#39;,&#39;Lucida Grande&#39;,&#39;Helvetica Neue=
&#39;,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;margin:0px 0px 0.25em;padding:0px;word-bre=
ak:break-word;color:rgb(45,45,45);font-size:1.25rem;font-weight:600;line-he=
ight:1.25em">On the emergence of complex<span style=3D"font-style:inherit;f=
ont-weight:inherit;color:rgb(40,121,22)!important;background-color:rgb(238,=
255,232)!important">systems</span>=C2=A0on the basis of the coordination of=
 complex behaviors of their elements</p><p style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);fon=
t-family:&#39;Open Sans&#39;,&#39;Lucida Grande&#39;,&#39;Helvetica Neue&#3=
9;,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:21px;margin:0px 0p=
x 0.25em;padding:0px"><span style=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:600!imp=
ortant;color:rgb(18,18,18)!important">Authors:</span>=C2=A0<a href=3D"https=
://arxiv.org/search/?searchtype=3Dauthor&amp;query=3DAtay%2C+F+M" target=3D=
"_blank" style=3D"color:rgb(0,104,172);border-bottom-width:1px;border-botto=
m-style:solid;border-bottom-color:transparent">Fatihcan M. Atay</a>,=C2=A0<=
a href=3D"https://arxiv.org/search/?searchtype=3Dauthor&amp;query=3DJost%2C=
+J" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:rgb(0,104,172);border-bottom-width:1px=
;border-bottom-style:solid;border-bottom-color:transparent">J=C3=BCrgen Jos=
t</a></p><p style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:&#39;Open Sans&#39;,&#=
39;Lucida Grande&#39;,&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;f=
ont-size:14px;line-height:21px;margin:0px 0px 0.25em;padding:0px"><span sty=
le=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:bold;color:rgb(40,121,22)!important;ba=
ckground-color:rgb(238,255,232)!important">Abstract</span>:=C2=A0<span styl=
e=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:inherit">We argue that the coordination=
 of the activities of individual complex agents enables a=C2=A0<span style=
=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:bold;color:rgb(40,121,22)!important;back=
ground-color:rgb(238,255,232)!important">system</span>=C2=A0to develop and =
sustain complexity at a higher level. We exemplify relevant mechanisms thro=
ugh=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:bold;color:rgb(40,12=
1,22)!important;background-color:rgb(238,255,232)!important">computer</span=
>simulations of a toy=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:bo=
ld;color:rgb(40,121,22)!important;background-color:rgb(238,255,232)!importa=
nt">system</span>, a coupled map lattice with transmission delays. The coor=
dination here is achieved through the synchronization of the chaotic=C2=A0<=
span style=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:bold;color:rgb(40,121,22)!impo=
rtant;background-color:rgb(238,255,232)!important">operations</span>of the =
individual elements, and on the basis of this, regular behavior at a longer=
 temporal scale emerges that is inaccessible to the uncoupled individual dy=
namics.</span></p></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Regard,</div><di=
v>Guntur Wiseno Putra<br><br>Pada Rabu, 17 Juli 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gsenopu@gmail.com">gsenopu@gmail.com</a>&gt; menulis:<=
br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left=
:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Dear architecture-disxuss,=C2=A0<div><br>=
</div><div>If it makes an interest:</div><div><br></div><div>The concept of=
 &quot;grease&quot; mentioned in the earlier messages regarded with situati=
ons of protocols --their possibilities, their directions/paths --in relatio=
n with extensions, thus with changed systems.</div><div><br></div><div>In s=
uch a matter I find this paper proposed an initiative for situations of pro=
tocols --which was about a practice having a potential to generate addition=
al value of systems already operating:</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><=
div><ol start=3D"5001" style=3D"margin:1em 0px 1em 2em;padding:0px;list-sty=
le-position:outside;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:&#39;Open Sans&#39;,&#3=
9;Lucida Grande&#39;,&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:14px;line-height:21px"><li style=3D"margin:0.25em 0px 1.25em;paddin=
g:0px"><div style=3D"margin:0px!important"><p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0.25e=
m;padding:0px;display:inline-block!important;font-size:1.05em;font-weight:6=
00;line-height:1.25em"><a href=3D"https://arxiv.org/abs/1011.5739" style=3D=
"color:rgb(0,104,172);border-bottom-width:1px;border-bottom-style:solid;bor=
der-bottom-color:transparent" target=3D"_blank">arXiv:1011.5739</a>=C2=A0<s=
pan style=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:inherit">=C2=A0=C2=A0</span></p=
>=C2=A0<div style=3D"display:flex;margin-bottom:0px"><span style=3D"font-st=
yle:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-family:&#39;Lucida Grande&#39;,&#39;He=
lvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;border-top-left-radius:4px;bor=
der-top-right-radius:4px;border-bottom-right-radius:4px;border-bottom-left-=
radius:4px;color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline-flex;font-size:0.85rem;hei=
ght:1.25rem;line-height:1.5;padding-left:0.75em;padding-right:0.75em;white-=
space:nowrap;margin-bottom:0.5rem;margin-right:0.5rem;background-color:rgb(=
0,104,172)">cs.IT</span>=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight=
:inherit;font-family:&#39;Lucida Grande&#39;,&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helve=
tica,Arial,sans-serif;border-top-left-radius:4px;border-top-right-radius:4p=
x;border-bottom-right-radius:4px;border-bottom-left-radius:4px;display:inli=
ne-flex;font-size:0.85rem;height:1.25rem;line-height:1.5;padding-left:0.75e=
m;padding-right:0.75em;white-space:nowrap;margin-bottom:0.5rem;background-c=
olor:rgb(245,245,245)">cs.NI</span></div></div><p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
.25em;padding:0px;word-break:break-word;color:rgb(45,45,45);font-size:1.25r=
em;font-weight:600;line-height:1.25em">Protocol Coding through Reordering o=
f User Resources: Applications and Capacity Results</p><p style=3D"margin:0=
px 0px 0.25em;padding:0px"><span style=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:60=
0!important;color:rgb(18,18,18)!important">Authors:</span>=C2=A0<a href=3D"=
https://arxiv.org/search/?searchtype=3Dauthor&amp;query=3DPopovski%2C+P" st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(0,104,172);border-bottom-width:1px;border-bottom-style:sol=
id;border-bottom-color:transparent" target=3D"_blank">Petar Popovski</a>,=
=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://arxiv.org/search/?searchtype=3Dauthor&amp;query=3D=
Utkovski%2C+Z" style=3D"color:rgb(0,104,172);border-bottom-width:1px;border=
-bottom-style:solid;border-bottom-color:transparent" target=3D"_blank">Zora=
n Utkovski</a></p><p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0.25em;padding:0px"><span styl=
e=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:bold;color:rgb(40,121,22)!important;bac=
kground-color:rgb(238,255,232)!important">Abstract</span>:=C2=A0<span style=
=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:inherit;display:inline">While there are =
continuous efforts to introduce new communication<span style=3D"font-style:=
inherit;font-weight:bold;color:rgb(40,121,22)!important;background-color:rg=
b(238,255,232)!important">systems</span>=C2=A0and standards, it is legitima=
te to ask the question: how can one send additional bits by minimally chang=
ing the<span style=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:bold;color:rgb(40,121,=
22)!important;background-color:rgb(238,255,232)!important">systems</span>=
=C2=A0that are already=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:b=
old;color:rgb(40,121,22)!important;background-color:rgb(238,255,232)!import=
ant">operating</span>? This is of a significant practical interest, since i=
t has a potential to generate additional value of the=C2=A0<span style=3D"f=
ont-style:inherit;font-weight:bold;color:rgb(40,121,22)!important;backgroun=
d-color:rgb(238,255,232)!important">systems</span>=C2=A0through, for exampl=
e, introduction of new devices and only a software update of the access poi=
nts or base stations, without incurring additional cost for infrastructure =
hardware installation. The place to look for such an opportunity is the com=
munication protocol and we use the term *protocol coding* to refer to strat=
egies for sending information by using the degrees of freedom available whe=
n one needs to decide the actions taken by a particular communication proto=
col. In this paper we consider protocol coding that gives a rise to *second=
ary communication channels*, defined by combinatorial ordering of the user =
resources (packets, channels) in a primary (legacy) communication=C2=A0<spa=
n style=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:bold;color:rgb(40,121,22)!importa=
nt;background-color:rgb(238,255,232)!important">system</span>...</span></p>=
<p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0.25em;padding:0px;font-size:0.85rem!important">=
<span style=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:600!important;color:rgb(18,18=
,18)!important">Submitted</span>=C2=A01 February, 2012;=C2=A0<span style=3D=
"font-style:inherit;font-weight:600!important;color:rgb(18,18,18)!important=
">v1</span>=C2=A0submitted 26 November, 2010;=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-styl=
e:inherit;font-weight:600!important;color:rgb(18,18,18)!important">original=
ly announced</span>=C2=A0November 2010.</p><p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0.25e=
m;padding:0px;font-size:0.85rem!important"><span style=3D"font-style:inheri=
t;font-weight:600!important;color:rgb(18,18,18)!important">Comments:</span>=
=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:inherit">Replaced with =
a two-part paper</span></p></li></ol></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><d=
iv>Regard,</div><div>Guntur Wiseno Putra<br><br>Pada Minggu, 30 Juni 2019, =
Brian E Carpenter &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt; menulis:<br><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex">On 27-Jun-19 16:13, Martin Thomson wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; Esteemed colleagues,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The IAB is looking for historical examples of deliberate additions to<=
br>
&gt; a protocol that are added not to enable new behaviour, but to test<br>
&gt; that the ability to do so remains viable.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; This comes up in the context of assessing the concept of &quot;grease&=
quot; (see<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-tls-grease), a practice of adding meaningless extension<br>
&gt; points to messages in the hope that it will reveal, and perhaps<br>
&gt; prevent, intolerance toward real extensions.=C2=A0 This is a practice =
we<br>
&gt; have seen deployed with some success in TLS.=C2=A0 That has produced s=
ome<br>
&gt; enthusiasm about the practice.=C2=A0 I think that it would be fair to =
say<br>
&gt; that the IAB maintains some reservations about the general<br>
&gt; applicability of the technique.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Are there protocols (in either specification or deployment) that have<=
br>
&gt; experimented with this sort of thing in the past?<br>
<br>
This isn&#39;t exactly what you&#39;re describing, but <a href=3D"https://t=
ools.ietf.org/html/rfc7872" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/r=
f<wbr>c7872</a> (Observations on the Dropping of Packets with IPv6 Extensio=
n Headers in the Real World) seems relevant. IMHO, IPv6 extension headers a=
re an *unintentional* form of chaff by their design.<br>
<br>
Recent proposals for piggy-backed OAM options seem to be continue this. See=
 draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-<wbr>ipv6-options, draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-=
ioam-<wbr>ipv6-deployment.<br>
=C2=A0 &quot;In order for IOAM to work in IPv6 networks, IOAM MUST be expli=
citly<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0enabled per interface on every node within the IOAM domain.=C2=
=A0 Unless a<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0particular interface is explicitly enabled (i.e. explicitly<br=
>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0configured) for IOAM, a router MUST drop packets which contain=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0extension headers carrying IOAM data-fields.&quot;<br>
<br>
Whoops, there&#39;s another limited domain protocol. All limited domain pro=
tocols become potential chaff outside their domain.<br>
<br>
Apart from that, I wonder whether you don&#39;t need to dive into the histo=
ry of formal OSI conformance testing to find examples. All I recall persona=
lly is a converse example: the anecdote of an OSI TP4 implementation that p=
assed a conformance test with flying colours because whatever it received, =
it sent back a RESET, which according to the standard was allowed at any ti=
me. No doubt it would still have passed even in the presence of undefined e=
xtensions.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian<br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The concept of fuzzing software isn&#39;t new (see<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzing" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/<wbr>Fuzzing</a>) and testing for resilience to=
<br>
&gt; unusual behaviour is similarly well-established (e.g.,<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://github.com/Netflix/chaosmonkey" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://github.com/Netflix/cha<wbr>osmonkey</a>).=C2=A0 But are there cases =
of this<br>
&gt; in network protocols prior to its use in TLS?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; Martin<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
&gt; Architecture-discuss mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Architecture-discuss@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Arc=
hitecture-discuss@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/architecture-=
discuss</a><br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Architecture-discuss mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Architecture-discuss@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Architec=
ture-discuss@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/architecture-discu=
ss</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div>

--0000000000006dbe4b058e306900--


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Subject: [arch-d] IAB Adoption of draft-nottingham-for-the-users-09
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The IAB will discuss adoption of draft-nottingham-for-the-users-09 at 
its meeting on 2019-08-07.

The draft can be found here: 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nottingham-for-the-users/

The agenda for the meeting will be posted 48 hours ahead of the meeting 
here: https://www.iab.org/wiki/index.php/Agenda

Feedback about this draft can be sent in response to this mail on 
architecture-discuss@ietf.org, or to the IAB directly at iab@iab.org.


From nobody Mon Jul 22 22:32:27 2019
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References: <a33aad56-7ca9-4913-98a7-dd96113815e7@www.fastmail.com> <CANMZLAbfkh+cNanqBExWOe=O6TspnufCnQKt=CF_aK__xDC3Mg@mail.gmail.com> <5d84a5a6-41b7-d302-607b-0b0cd7ec554c@gmail.com> <CAKi_AEtkDjLmpd6=bxiX9nCLf6FjaMp-DpdMydONxtMjyHtN8w@mail.gmail.com> <CAKi_AEviKJ0FtNMaV4bbeU2xiutVOEdFASk+1TaJH6uB40eW3Q@mail.gmail.com>
From: Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 12:32:14 +0700
Message-ID: <CAKi_AEuhaYRPz+fwNqNQ83Cm=HW6kSxLTAE=EmHQLwyVP8wNFA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Cc: Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net>,  "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" <architecture-discuss@ietf.org>
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Subject: [arch-d] Chaff in protocols
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Dear architectur-discuss,

To those papers I mentioned above --which were about "complex systems",
"behaviors of elements", and "protocol coding"--, this one seems to relate
closely as ut is about "complex system engineering":

arXiv:cs/0603127 <https://arxiv.org/abs/cs/0603127>  [pdf
<https://arxiv.org/pdf/cs/0603127>]

cs.MA

Complex Systems + SystemsEngineering =3D Complex SystemsEngineeri

Authors: Russ Abbott
<https://arxiv.org/search/?searchtype=3Dauthor&query=3DAbbott%2C+R>

Abstract: One may define a complex system as asystem in which phenomena
emerge as a consequence of multiscale interaction among thesystem's compone=
nts
and their environments. The field of Complex Systems is the study of such
systems--usually naturally occurring, either bio-logical or social.
Systems Engineering
may be understood to include the conceptualising and building of systems th=
at
consist of a large number of concurrently operating and interacting
components--usually including both human and non-human elements. It has
become increasingly apparent that the kinds of systems that systemsengineer=
s
build have many of the same multiscale characteristics as those of
naturally occurring complex systems. In other words, systemsengineering is
the engineering of complexsystems. This paper and the associated panel will
explore some of the connections between the fields of complex systems and
systemsengineering. =E2=96=B3 Less

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Minggu, 21 Juli 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:

> Dear architecture-discuss,
>
> Forgive me if I missed things: the paper below supposedly planned a thing
> more or less similar with the one I mentioned above --with different
> nuances-- as it concerned with an analytical consideration on "Complex
> Systems" and "Behaviors of Elements":
>
> arXiv:nlin/0312026 <https://arxiv.org/abs/nlin/0312026>  [pdf
> <https://arxiv.org/pdf/nlin/0312026>, ps
> <https://arxiv.org/ps/nlin/0312026>, other
> <https://arxiv.org/format/nlin/0312026>]
> nlin.AO cond-mat.dis-nn
> doi10.1002/cplx.20045  <https://doi.org/10.1002/cplx.20045>
>
> On the emergence of complexsystems on the basis of the coordination of
> complex behaviors of their elements
>
> Authors: Fatihcan M. Atay
> <https://arxiv.org/search/?searchtype=3Dauthor&query=3DAtay%2C+F+M>, J=C3=
=BCrgen
> Jost <https://arxiv.org/search/?searchtype=3Dauthor&query=3DJost%2C+J>
>
> Abstract: We argue that the coordination of the activities of individual
> complex agents enables a system to develop and sustain complexity at a
> higher level. We exemplify relevant mechanisms through computersimulation=
s
> of a toy system, a coupled map lattice with transmission delays. The
> coordination here is achieved through the synchronization of the chaotic
> operationsof the individual elements, and on the basis of this, regular
> behavior at a longer temporal scale emerges that is inaccessible to the
> uncoupled individual dynamics.
>
>
> Regard,
> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>
> Pada Rabu, 17 Juli 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
>
>> Dear architecture-disxuss,
>>
>> If it makes an interest:
>>
>> The concept of "grease" mentioned in the earlier messages regarded with
>> situations of protocols --their possibilities, their directions/paths --=
in
>> relation with extensions, thus with changed systems.
>>
>> In such a matter I find this paper proposed an initiative for situations
>> of protocols --which was about a practice having a potential to generate
>> additional value of systems already operating:
>>
>>
>>
>>    1.
>>
>>    arXiv:1011.5739 <https://arxiv.org/abs/1011.5739>
>>
>>    cs.IT cs.NI
>>
>>    Protocol Coding through Reordering of User Resources: Applications
>>    and Capacity Results
>>
>>    Authors: Petar Popovski
>>    <https://arxiv.org/search/?searchtype=3Dauthor&query=3DPopovski%2C+P>=
, Zoran
>>    Utkovski
>>    <https://arxiv.org/search/?searchtype=3Dauthor&query=3DUtkovski%2C+Z>
>>
>>    Abstract: While there are continuous efforts to introduce new
>>    communicationsystems and standards, it is legitimate to ask the
>>    question: how can one send additional bits by minimally changing the
>>    systems that are already operating? This is of a significant
>>    practical interest, since it has a potential to generate additional v=
alue
>>    of the systems through, for example, introduction of new devices and
>>    only a software update of the access points or base stations, without
>>    incurring additional cost for infrastructure hardware installation. T=
he
>>    place to look for such an opportunity is the communication protocol a=
nd we
>>    use the term *protocol coding* to refer to strategies for sending
>>    information by using the degrees of freedom available when one needs =
to
>>    decide the actions taken by a particular communication protocol. In t=
his
>>    paper we consider protocol coding that gives a rise to *secondary
>>    communication channels*, defined by combinatorial ordering of the use=
r
>>    resources (packets, channels) in a primary (legacy) communication
>>    system...
>>
>>    Submitted 1 February, 2012; v1 submitted 26 November, 2010; originall=
y
>>    announced November 2010.
>>
>>    Comments: Replaced with a two-part paper
>>
>>
>>
>> Regard,
>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>
>> Pada Minggu, 30 Juni 2019, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.co=
m>
>> menulis:
>>
>>> On 27-Jun-19 16:13, Martin Thomson wrote:
>>>
>>> > Esteemed colleagues,
>>> >
>>> > The IAB is looking for historical examples of deliberate additions to
>>> > a protocol that are added not to enable new behaviour, but to test
>>> > that the ability to do so remains viable.
>>> >
>>> > This comes up in the context of assessing the concept of "grease" (se=
e
>>> > draft-ietf-tls-grease), a practice of adding meaningless extension
>>> > points to messages in the hope that it will reveal, and perhaps
>>> > prevent, intolerance toward real extensions.  This is a practice we
>>> > have seen deployed with some success in TLS.  That has produced some
>>> > enthusiasm about the practice.  I think that it would be fair to say
>>> > that the IAB maintains some reservations about the general
>>> > applicability of the technique.
>>> >
>>> > Are there protocols (in either specification or deployment) that have
>>> > experimented with this sort of thing in the past?
>>>
>>> This isn't exactly what you're describing, but
>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7872 (Observations on the Dropping of
>>> Packets with IPv6 Extension Headers in the Real World) seems relevant.
>>> IMHO, IPv6 extension headers are an *unintentional* form of chaff by th=
eir
>>> design.
>>>
>>> Recent proposals for piggy-backed OAM options seem to be continue this.
>>> See draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options,
>>> draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-deployment.
>>>   "In order for IOAM to work in IPv6 networks, IOAM MUST be explicitly
>>>    enabled per interface on every node within the IOAM domain.  Unless =
a
>>>    particular interface is explicitly enabled (i.e. explicitly
>>>    configured) for IOAM, a router MUST drop packets which contain
>>>    extension headers carrying IOAM data-fields."
>>>
>>> Whoops, there's another limited domain protocol. All limited domain
>>> protocols become potential chaff outside their domain.
>>>
>>> Apart from that, I wonder whether you don't need to dive into the
>>> history of formal OSI conformance testing to find examples. All I recal=
l
>>> personally is a converse example: the anecdote of an OSI TP4 implementa=
tion
>>> that passed a conformance test with flying colours because whatever it
>>> received, it sent back a RESET, which according to the standard was all=
owed
>>> at any time. No doubt it would still have passed even in the presence o=
f
>>> undefined extensions.
>>>
>>>    Brian
>>>
>>> >
>>> > The concept of fuzzing software isn't new (see
>>> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzing) and testing for resilience to
>>> > unusual behaviour is similarly well-established (e.g.,
>>> > https://github.com/Netflix/chaosmonkey).  But are there cases of this
>>> > in network protocols prior to its use in TLS?
>>> >
>>> > Regards,
>>> > Martin
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Architecture-discuss mailing list
>>> > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org
>>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss
>>> >
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Architecture-discuss mailing list
>>> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss
>>>
>>

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Dear architectur-discuss,<div><br></div><div>To those papers I mentioned ab=
ove --which were about &quot;complex systems&quot;, &quot;behaviors of elem=
ents&quot;, and &quot;protocol coding&quot;--, this one seems to relate clo=
sely as ut is about &quot;complex system engineering&quot;:</div><div><br><=
/div><div><div style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:&#39;Open Sans&#39;=
,&#39;Lucida Grande&#39;,&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,Arial,sans-seri=
f;font-size:14px;line-height:21px;margin:0px!important"><p style=3D"margin:=
0px 0px 0.25em;padding:0px;font-size:1.05em;font-weight:600;line-height:1.2=
5em;display:inline-block!important"><a href=3D"https://arxiv.org/abs/cs/060=
3127" style=3D"color:rgb(0,104,172);border-bottom-width:1px;border-bottom-s=
tyle:solid;border-bottom-color:transparent" target=3D"_blank">arXiv:cs/0603=
127</a>=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:inherit">=C2=A0[=
<a href=3D"https://arxiv.org/pdf/cs/0603127" style=3D"color:rgb(0,104,172);=
border-bottom-width:1px;border-bottom-style:solid;border-bottom-color:trans=
parent" target=3D"_blank">pdf</a>]=C2=A0</span></p>=C2=A0<div style=3D"disp=
lay:flex;margin-bottom:0px"><span style=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:i=
nherit;font-family:&#39;Lucida Grande&#39;,&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helveti=
ca,Arial,sans-serif;border-top-left-radius:4px;border-top-right-radius:4px;=
border-bottom-right-radius:4px;border-bottom-left-radius:4px;color:rgb(255,=
255,255);display:inline-flex;font-size:0.85rem;height:1.25rem;line-height:1=
.5;padding-left:0.75em;padding-right:0.75em;white-space:nowrap;margin-botto=
m:0.5rem;background-color:rgb(0,104,172)">cs.MA</span></div></div><p style=
=3D"font-family:&#39;Open Sans&#39;,&#39;Lucida Grande&#39;,&#39;Helvetica =
Neue&#39;,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;margin:0px 0px 0.25em;padding:0px;word=
-break:break-word;color:rgb(45,45,45);font-size:1.25rem;font-weight:600;lin=
e-height:1.25em">Complex=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight=
:inherit;color:rgb(40,121,22)!important;background-color:rgb(238,255,232)!i=
mportant">Systems</span>=C2=A0+=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-style:inherit;font=
-weight:inherit;color:rgb(40,121,22)!important;background-color:rgb(238,255=
,232)!important">Systems</span>Engin<wbr>eering =3D Complex=C2=A0<span styl=
e=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:inherit;color:rgb(40,121,22)!important;=
background-color:rgb(238,255,232)!important">Systems</span>Engineeri</p><p =
style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:&#39;Open Sans&#39;,&#39;Lucida Gr=
ande&#39;,&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14p=
x;line-height:21px;margin:0px 0px 0.25em;padding:0px"><span style=3D"font-s=
tyle:inherit;font-weight:600!important;color:rgb(18,18,18)!important">Autho=
rs:</span>=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://arxiv.org/search/?searchtype=3Dauthor&am=
p;query=3DAbbott%2C+R" style=3D"color:rgb(0,104,172);border-bottom-width:1p=
x;border-bottom-style:solid;border-bottom-color:transparent" target=3D"_bla=
nk">Russ Abbott</a></p><p style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:&#39;Ope=
n Sans&#39;,&#39;Lucida Grande&#39;,&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,Aria=
l,sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:21px;margin:0px 0px 0.25em;padding:=
0px"><span style=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:600!important;color:rgb(=
18,18,18)!important">Abstract</span>:=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-style:inheri=
t;font-weight:inherit">One may define a complex=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-st=
yle:inherit;font-weight:bold;color:rgb(40,121,22)!important;background-colo=
r:rgb(238,255,232)!important">system</span>=C2=A0as a<span style=3D"font-st=
yle:inherit;font-weight:bold;color:rgb(40,121,22)!important;background-colo=
r:rgb(238,255,232)!important">system</span>=C2=A0in which phenomena emerge =
as a consequence of multiscale interaction among the<span style=3D"font-sty=
le:inherit;font-weight:bold;color:rgb(40,121,22)!important;background-color=
:rgb(238,255,232)!important">system&#39;s</span>=C2=A0components and their =
environments.=C2=A0</span>The field of Complex=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-sty=
le:inherit;font-weight:bold;color:rgb(40,121,22)!important;background-color=
:rgb(238,255,232)!important">Systems</span>=C2=A0is the study of such<span =
style=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:bold;color:rgb(40,121,22)!important=
;background-color:rgb(238,255,232)!important">systems</span>--usually natur=
ally occurring, either bio-logical or social.=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-styl=
e:inherit;font-weight:bold;color:rgb(40,121,22)!important;background-color:=
rgb(238,255,232)!important">Systems</span>=C2=A0Engineering may be understo=
od to include the conceptualising and building of=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-=
style:inherit;font-weight:bold;color:rgb(40,121,22)!important;background-co=
lor:rgb(238,255,232)!important">systems</span>=C2=A0that consist of a large=
 number of concurrently=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:=
bold;color:rgb(40,121,22)!important;background-color:rgb(238,255,232)!impor=
tant">operating</span>=C2=A0and interacting components--usually including b=
oth human and non-human elements. It has become increasingly apparent that =
the kinds of=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:bold;color:=
rgb(40,121,22)!important;background-color:rgb(238,255,232)!important">syste=
ms</span>=C2=A0that=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:bold=
;color:rgb(40,121,22)!important;background-color:rgb(238,255,232)!important=
">systems</span>enginee<wbr>rs build have many of the same multiscale chara=
cteristics as those of naturally occurring complex=C2=A0<span style=3D"font=
-style:inherit;font-weight:bold;color:rgb(40,121,22)!important;background-c=
olor:rgb(238,255,232)!important">systems</span>. In other words,=C2=A0<span=
 style=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:bold;color:rgb(40,121,22)!importan=
t;background-color:rgb(238,255,232)!important">systems</span>engineering is=
 the engineering of complex<span style=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:bo=
ld;color:rgb(40,121,22)!important;background-color:rgb(238,255,232)!importa=
nt">systems</span>. This paper and the associated panel will explore some o=
f the connections between the fields of complex=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-st=
yle:inherit;font-weight:bold;color:rgb(40,121,22)!important;background-colo=
r:rgb(238,255,232)!important">systems</span>=C2=A0and=C2=A0<span style=3D"f=
ont-style:inherit;font-weight:bold;color:rgb(40,121,22)!important;backgroun=
d-color:rgb(238,255,232)!important">systems</span>eng<wbr>ineering.=C2=A0<a=
 style=3D"color:rgb(0,104,172);border-bottom-width:1px;border-bottom-style:=
solid;border-bottom-color:transparent;white-space:nowrap;font-size:0.85rem!=
important">=E2=96=B3 Less</a></p></div><div><br></div><div>Regard,</div><di=
v>Guntur Wiseno Putra<br><br>Pada Minggu, 21 Juli 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gsenopu@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gsenopu@gmail.c=
om</a>&gt; menulis:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Dear architecture-dis=
cuss,<div><br></div><div>Forgive me if I missed things: the paper below sup=
posedly planned a thing more or less similar with the one I mentioned above=
 --with different nuances-- as it concerned with an analytical consideratio=
n on &quot;Complex Systems&quot; and &quot;Behaviors of Elements&quot;:</di=
v><div><br></div><div><div style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:&#39;Op=
en Sans&#39;,&#39;Lucida Grande&#39;,&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,Ari=
al,sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:21px;margin:0px!important"><p styl=
e=3D"margin:0px 0px 0.25em;padding:0px;font-size:1.05em;font-weight:600;lin=
e-height:1.25em;display:inline-block!important"><a href=3D"https://arxiv.or=
g/abs/nlin/0312026" style=3D"color:rgb(0,104,172);border-bottom-width:1px;b=
order-bottom-style:solid;border-bottom-color:transparent" target=3D"_blank"=
>arXiv:nlin/0312026</a>=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:=
inherit">=C2=A0[<a href=3D"https://arxiv.org/pdf/nlin/0312026" style=3D"col=
or:rgb(0,104,172);border-bottom-width:1px;border-bottom-style:solid;border-=
bottom-color:transparent" target=3D"_blank">pdf</a>,=C2=A0<a href=3D"https:=
//arxiv.org/ps/nlin/0312026" style=3D"color:rgb(0,104,172);border-bottom-wi=
dth:1px;border-bottom-style:solid;border-bottom-color:transparent" target=
=3D"_blank">ps</a>,=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://arxiv.org/format/nlin/0312026" =
style=3D"color:rgb(0,104,172);border-bottom-width:1px;border-bottom-style:s=
olid;border-bottom-color:transparent" target=3D"_blank"><wbr>other</a>]=C2=
=A0</span></p><div style=3D"display:flex;margin-bottom:0px"><span style=3D"=
font-style:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-family:&#39;Lucida Grande&#39;,=
&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;border-top-left-radius:=
4px;border-top-right-radius:4px;border-bottom-right-radius:4px;border-botto=
m-left-radius:4px;color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline-flex;font-size:0.85=
rem;height:1.25rem;line-height:1.5;padding-left:0.75em;padding-right:0.75em=
;white-space:nowrap;margin-bottom:0.5rem;margin-right:0.5rem;background-col=
or:rgb(0,104,172)">nlin.AO</span>=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-style:inherit;fo=
nt-weight:inherit;font-family:&#39;Lucida Grande&#39;,&#39;Helvetica Neue&#=
39;,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;border-top-left-radius:4px;border-top-right-=
radius:4px;border-bottom-right-radius:4px;border-bottom-left-radius:4px;dis=
play:inline-flex;font-size:0.85rem;height:1.25rem;line-height:1.5;padding-l=
eft:0.75em;padding-right:0.75em;white-space:nowrap;margin-bottom:0.5rem;bac=
kground-color:rgb(245,245,245)">cond-mat.dis-nn</span></div><div style=3D"m=
argin-left:0.5rem;display:inline-block!important"><div style=3D"display:fle=
x;margin-bottom:0px"><span style=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:inherit;=
font-size:0.85rem;border-top-left-radius:4px;border-top-right-radius:0px;bo=
rder-bottom-right-radius:0px;border-bottom-left-radius:4px;color:rgb(245,24=
5,245);display:inline-flex;height:1.25rem;line-height:1.5;padding-left:0.75=
em;padding-right:0.75em;white-space:nowrap;margin-bottom:0.5rem;margin-righ=
t:0px;background-color:rgb(45,45,45)">doi</span><span style=3D"font-style:i=
nherit;font-weight:inherit;font-size:0.85rem;border-top-left-radius:0px;bor=
der-top-right-radius:4px;border-bottom-right-radius:4px;border-bottom-left-=
radius:0px;color:rgb(45,45,45);display:inline-flex;height:1.25rem;line-heig=
ht:1.5;padding-left:0.75em;padding-right:0.75em;white-space:nowrap;margin-b=
ottom:0.5rem;margin-right:0px;background-color:rgb(245,245,245)"><a href=3D=
"https://doi.org/10.1002/cplx.20045" style=3D"color:rgb(0,104,172);border-b=
ottom-width:1px;border-bottom-style:solid;border-bottom-color:transparent" =
target=3D"_blank">10.1002/cplx.20045=C2=A0<span style=3D"display:inline-blo=
ck;font-stretch:normal;line-height:1;font-family:FontAwesome;font-size:inhe=
rit"></span></a></span></div></div></div><p style=3D"font-family:&#39;Open =
Sans&#39;,&#39;Lucida Grande&#39;,&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,Arial,=
sans-serif;margin:0px 0px 0.25em;padding:0px;word-break:break-word;color:rg=
b(45,45,45);font-size:1.25rem;font-weight:600;line-height:1.25em">On the em=
ergence of complex<span style=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:inherit;col=
or:rgb(40,121,22)!important;background-color:rgb(238,255,232)!important">sy=
stems</span>=C2=A0on the basis of the coordination of complex behaviors of =
their elements</p><p style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:&#39;Open San=
s&#39;,&#39;Lucida Grande&#39;,&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,Arial,san=
s-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:21px;margin:0px 0px 0.25em;padding:0px">=
<span style=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:600!important;color:rgb(18,18=
,18)!important">Authors:</span>=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://arxiv.org/search/?s=
earchtype=3Dauthor&amp;query=3DAtay%2C+F+M" style=3D"color:rgb(0,104,172);b=
order-bottom-width:1px;border-bottom-style:solid;border-bottom-color:transp=
arent" target=3D"_blank">Fatihcan M. Atay</a>,=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://arxi=
v.org/search/?searchtype=3Dauthor&amp;query=3DJost%2C+J" style=3D"color:rgb=
(0,104,172);border-bottom-width:1px;border-bottom-style:solid;border-bottom=
-color:transparent" target=3D"_blank">J=C3=BCrgen Jost</a></p><p style=3D"c=
olor:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:&#39;Open Sans&#39;,&#39;Lucida Grande&#39;,=
&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-hei=
ght:21px;margin:0px 0px 0.25em;padding:0px"><span style=3D"font-style:inher=
it;font-weight:bold;color:rgb(40,121,22)!important;background-color:rgb(238=
,255,232)!important">Abstract</span>:=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-style:inheri=
t;font-weight:inherit">We argue that the coordination of the activities of =
individual complex agents enables a=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-style:inherit;=
font-weight:bold;color:rgb(40,121,22)!important;background-color:rgb(238,25=
5,232)!important">system</span>=C2=A0to develop and sustain complexity at a=
 higher level. We exemplify relevant mechanisms through=C2=A0<span style=3D=
"font-style:inherit;font-weight:bold;color:rgb(40,121,22)!important;backgro=
und-color:rgb(238,255,232)!important">computer</span>simulations of a toy=
=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:bold;color:rgb(40,121,2=
2)!important;background-color:rgb(238,255,232)!important">system</span>, a =
coupled map lattice with transmission delays. The coordination here is achi=
eved through the synchronization of the chaotic=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-st=
yle:inherit;font-weight:bold;color:rgb(40,121,22)!important;background-colo=
r:rgb(238,255,232)!important">operations</span>of the individual elements, =
and on the basis of this, regular behavior at a longer temporal scale emerg=
es that is inaccessible to the uncoupled individual dynamics.</span></p></d=
iv><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Regard,</div><div>Guntur Wiseno Putra=
<br><br>Pada Rabu, 17 Juli 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
gsenopu@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gsenopu@gmail.com</a>&gt; menulis:<br>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Dear architecture-disxuss,=C2=A0<div><br></d=
iv><div>If it makes an interest:</div><div><br></div><div>The concept of &q=
uot;grease&quot; mentioned in the earlier messages regarded with situations=
 of protocols --their possibilities, their directions/paths --in relation w=
ith extensions, thus with changed systems.</div><div><br></div><div>In such=
 a matter I find this paper proposed an initiative for situations of protoc=
ols --which was about a practice having a potential to generate additional =
value of systems already operating:</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div=
><ol start=3D"5001" style=3D"margin:1em 0px 1em 2em;padding:0px;list-style-=
position:outside;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:&#39;Open Sans&#39;,&#39;L=
ucida Grande&#39;,&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-=
size:14px;line-height:21px"><li style=3D"margin:0.25em 0px 1.25em;padding:0=
px"><div style=3D"margin:0px!important"><p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0.25em;p=
adding:0px;display:inline-block!important;font-size:1.05em;font-weight:600;=
line-height:1.25em"><a href=3D"https://arxiv.org/abs/1011.5739" style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(0,104,172);border-bottom-width:1px;border-bottom-style:solid;border=
-bottom-color:transparent" target=3D"_blank">arXiv:1011.5739</a>=C2=A0<span=
 style=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:inherit">=C2=A0=C2=A0</span></p>=
=C2=A0<div style=3D"display:flex;margin-bottom:0px"><span style=3D"font-sty=
le:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-family:&#39;Lucida Grande&#39;,&#39;Hel=
vetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;border-top-left-radius:4px;bord=
er-top-right-radius:4px;border-bottom-right-radius:4px;border-bottom-left-r=
adius:4px;color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline-flex;font-size:0.85rem;heig=
ht:1.25rem;line-height:1.5;padding-left:0.75em;padding-right:0.75em;white-s=
pace:nowrap;margin-bottom:0.5rem;margin-right:0.5rem;background-color:rgb(0=
,104,172)">cs.IT</span>=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:=
inherit;font-family:&#39;Lucida Grande&#39;,&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvet=
ica,Arial,sans-serif;border-top-left-radius:4px;border-top-right-radius:4px=
;border-bottom-right-radius:4px;border-bottom-left-radius:4px;display:inlin=
e-flex;font-size:0.85rem;height:1.25rem;line-height:1.5;padding-left:0.75em=
;padding-right:0.75em;white-space:nowrap;margin-bottom:0.5rem;background-co=
lor:rgb(245,245,245)">cs.NI</span></div></div><p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0.=
25em;padding:0px;word-break:break-word;color:rgb(45,45,45);font-size:1.25re=
m;font-weight:600;line-height:1.25em">Protocol Coding through Reordering of=
 User Resources: Applications and Capacity Results</p><p style=3D"margin:0p=
x 0px 0.25em;padding:0px"><span style=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:600=
!important;color:rgb(18,18,18)!important">Authors:</span>=C2=A0<a href=3D"h=
ttps://arxiv.org/search/?searchtype=3Dauthor&amp;query=3DPopovski%2C+P" sty=
le=3D"color:rgb(0,104,172);border-bottom-width:1px;border-bottom-style:soli=
d;border-bottom-color:transparent" target=3D"_blank">Petar Popovski</a>,=C2=
=A0<a href=3D"https://arxiv.org/search/?searchtype=3Dauthor&amp;query=3DUtk=
ovski%2C+Z" style=3D"color:rgb(0,104,172);border-bottom-width:1px;border-bo=
ttom-style:solid;border-bottom-color:transparent" target=3D"_blank">Zoran U=
tkovski</a></p><p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0.25em;padding:0px"><span style=
=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:bold;color:rgb(40,121,22)!important;back=
ground-color:rgb(238,255,232)!important">Abstract</span>:=C2=A0<span style=
=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:inherit;display:inline">While there are =
continuous efforts to introduce new communication<span style=3D"font-style:=
inherit;font-weight:bold;color:rgb(40,121,22)!important;background-color:rg=
b(238,255,232)!important">systems</span>=C2=A0and standards, it is legitima=
te to ask the question: how can one send additional bits by minimally chang=
ing the<span style=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:bold;color:rgb(40,121,=
22)!important;background-color:rgb(238,255,232)!important">systems</span>=
=C2=A0that are already=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:b=
old;color:rgb(40,121,22)!important;background-color:rgb(238,255,232)!import=
ant">operating</span>? This is of a significant practical interest, since i=
t has a potential to generate additional value of the=C2=A0<span style=3D"f=
ont-style:inherit;font-weight:bold;color:rgb(40,121,22)!important;backgroun=
d-color:rgb(238,255,232)!important">systems</span>=C2=A0through, for exampl=
e, introduction of new devices and only a software update of the access poi=
nts or base stations, without incurring additional cost for infrastructure =
hardware installation. The place to look for such an opportunity is the com=
munication protocol and we use the term *protocol coding* to refer to strat=
egies for sending information by using the degrees of freedom available whe=
n one needs to decide the actions taken by a particular communication proto=
col. In this paper we consider protocol coding that gives a rise to *second=
ary communication channels*, defined by combinatorial ordering of the user =
resources (packets, channels) in a primary (legacy) communication=C2=A0<spa=
n style=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:bold;color:rgb(40,121,22)!importa=
nt;background-color:rgb(238,255,232)!important">system</span>...</span></p>=
<p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0.25em;padding:0px;font-size:0.85rem!important">=
<span style=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:600!important;color:rgb(18,18=
,18)!important">Submitted</span>=C2=A01 February, 2012;=C2=A0<span style=3D=
"font-style:inherit;font-weight:600!important;color:rgb(18,18,18)!important=
">v1</span>=C2=A0submitted 26 November, 2010;=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-styl=
e:inherit;font-weight:600!important;color:rgb(18,18,18)!important">original=
ly announced</span>=C2=A0November 2010.</p><p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0.25e=
m;padding:0px;font-size:0.85rem!important"><span style=3D"font-style:inheri=
t;font-weight:600!important;color:rgb(18,18,18)!important">Comments:</span>=
=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-style:inherit;font-weight:inherit">Replaced with =
a two-part paper</span></p></li></ol></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><d=
iv>Regard,</div><div>Guntur Wiseno Putra<br><br>Pada Minggu, 30 Juni 2019, =
Brian E Carpenter &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt; menulis:<br><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex">On 27-Jun-19 16:13, Martin Thomson wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; Esteemed colleagues,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The IAB is looking for historical examples of deliberate additions to<=
br>
&gt; a protocol that are added not to enable new behaviour, but to test<br>
&gt; that the ability to do so remains viable.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; This comes up in the context of assessing the concept of &quot;grease&=
quot; (see<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-tls-grease), a practice of adding meaningless extension<br>
&gt; points to messages in the hope that it will reveal, and perhaps<br>
&gt; prevent, intolerance toward real extensions.=C2=A0 This is a practice =
we<br>
&gt; have seen deployed with some success in TLS.=C2=A0 That has produced s=
ome<br>
&gt; enthusiasm about the practice.=C2=A0 I think that it would be fair to =
say<br>
&gt; that the IAB maintains some reservations about the general<br>
&gt; applicability of the technique.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Are there protocols (in either specification or deployment) that have<=
br>
&gt; experimented with this sort of thing in the past?<br>
<br>
This isn&#39;t exactly what you&#39;re describing, but <a href=3D"https://t=
ools.ietf.org/html/rfc7872" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/r=
f<wbr>c7872</a> (Observations on the Dropping of Packets with IPv6 Extensio=
n Headers in the Real World) seems relevant. IMHO, IPv6 extension headers a=
re an *unintentional* form of chaff by their design.<br>
<br>
Recent proposals for piggy-backed OAM options seem to be continue this. See=
 draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-<wbr>ipv6-options, draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-=
ioam-<wbr>ipv6-deployment.<br>
=C2=A0 &quot;In order for IOAM to work in IPv6 networks, IOAM MUST be expli=
citly<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0enabled per interface on every node within the IOAM domain.=C2=
=A0 Unless a<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0particular interface is explicitly enabled (i.e. explicitly<br=
>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0configured) for IOAM, a router MUST drop packets which contain=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0extension headers carrying IOAM data-fields.&quot;<br>
<br>
Whoops, there&#39;s another limited domain protocol. All limited domain pro=
tocols become potential chaff outside their domain.<br>
<br>
Apart from that, I wonder whether you don&#39;t need to dive into the histo=
ry of formal OSI conformance testing to find examples. All I recall persona=
lly is a converse example: the anecdote of an OSI TP4 implementation that p=
assed a conformance test with flying colours because whatever it received, =
it sent back a RESET, which according to the standard was allowed at any ti=
me. No doubt it would still have passed even in the presence of undefined e=
xtensions.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian<br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The concept of fuzzing software isn&#39;t new (see<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzing" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/<wbr>Fuzzing</a>) and testing for resilience to=
<br>
&gt; unusual behaviour is similarly well-established (e.g.,<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://github.com/Netflix/chaosmonkey" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://github.com/Netflix/cha<wbr>osmonkey</a>).=C2=A0 But are there cases =
of this<br>
&gt; in network protocols prior to its use in TLS?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; Martin<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
&gt; Architecture-discuss mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Architecture-discuss@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Arc=
hitecture-discuss@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/architecture-=
discuss</a><br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Architecture-discuss mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Architecture-discuss@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Architec=
ture-discuss@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/architecture-discu=
ss</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div>

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Subject: [arch-d] BCP 190, draft-nottingham-for-the-users, and a generalization
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(copying architecture-discuss because the comment I'm about to
make is an architectural issue and because
draft-nottingham-for-the-users is under discussion there.)


A late colleague, much loved by some of us, used to claim (much
more elegantly than I can manage) that one of the reasons the
ARPANET and then the Internet protocols had succeeded and much
of what was seen as competitive alternatives had not, was that
our efforts focused on pragmatic, working protocols and
implementations.  

The other folks had developed a culture of formalisms, models,
and stated design principles.  They then tried to develop
protocols that fit into the boxes and categories of those
formalisms, models, and design principles.    When they
discovered that something didn't fit, they needed to either
invent kludges or other ways of getting square pegs into round
holes, go back and revise models and guidance before moving
forward, or consider and make exceptions (which often required
first figuring out how to make an exception and developing
procedures for that).

One difficulty is that the above can waste a lot of time.
Another is that it can distort protocol design, if only because
forcing square pegs into round holes tends to be hard on both
the pegs and the holes.

In many or most fields of application, the nature of engineering
involves seeing and understanding a range of tradeoffs and then
doing design work that reflects a carefully-chosen balance among
them.  Give design elegance absolute priority over structural
issues and buildings and bridges fall down.  IMO, we need to
think, and keep thinking, about systems and tradeoffs.  That, in
turn, means that statements like these that can be interpreted
in absolute terms, even if we mostly agree with them, should be
packaged as general guidelines and not BCPs to which everything
done in the future is required to either conform or to try to
figure out how to appeal to a higher authority.

I'm not at all convinced that the proposal that was summarized
an ARTAREA yesterday and that is seen as requiring an exception
to BCP 190 is a good idea.  But I think our time would be better
spent, and the Internet more efficiently made better, discussing
the strengths, weaknesses, and alternatives to that idea rather
than debating the reach and appropriateness of BCP 190 under
various circumstances.   Long term and more generally, I think
that suggests seeing BCP 190 not as a particular set of
principles and rules but as an example of something we don't
want to do to ourselves again as a BCP (or as something that
gets enough of an IAB stamp of approval that people will later
argue MUST (or SHOULD) be conformed to.  Again, restated as
general guidance with the assumption that there will be
exceptions and cases not considered, I don't have much of a
problem.    If that shoe fits  draft-nottingham-for-the-users,
so be it.

   john

p.s. I don't mean to pick on Mark here.   While these two
documents coming up at the same time was handy, I think the
problem is general and that there are far worse examples
(examples of which he is not an author) than either of them.


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Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 15:31:18 +0200 (CEST)
From: Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com>
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Subject: Re: [arch-d] IAB Adoption of draft-nottingham-for-the-users-09
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> Il 22 luglio 2019 16:09 IAB Executive Administrative Manager <execd@iab.org> ha scritto:
> 
>  
> The IAB will discuss adoption of draft-nottingham-for-the-users-09 at 
> its meeting on 2019-08-07.
> 
> The draft can be found here: 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nottingham-for-the-users/
> 
> The agenda for the meeting will be posted 48 hours ahead of the meeting 
> here: https://www.iab.org/wiki/index.php/Agenda
> 
> Feedback about this draft can be sent in response to this mail on 
> architecture-discuss@ietf.org, or to the IAB directly at iab@iab.org.

You may remember that I already sent extensive feedback, mostly critical, when -07 was released and the same question was asked. I can say that after that, and after I had a chance to discuss this in person with an IAB member, the following versions have become noticeably better, so thanks for this.

I will still state a few points for the IAB to consider when making its mind on whether to adopt this draft, and on how to develop it further.


1. Whose interest is it really?

If this is going to be a high level policy declaration of "we do it for the general public interest", i.e. the interest of "the people" in general, this is a positive thing. However, you have to be absolutely sure that this will never be used as a way to push the standards-making process in a direction that benefits certain companies over others.

Especially, there is a decade-long competitive battle ongoing between companies providing services within the network and companies providing services over the network, at the endpoints of the connections. Sometimes the "end user" interest can be aligned with the former, sometimes with the latter, and sometimes (perhaps the most likely case) with neither of the two. The IETF should never make policy choices meant to be in favour of any of the two sets of businesses, but only in favour of the actual end users.

Even from the theoretical point of view, when individual "end users" form an organization, be it an NGO, a business or a government, the organization they form - which starts to have interests of its own - is not, in policy terms, an "end user" any more, even if it sits at the edge of the network. This is a known difference between the policy and the technology realm and should be made very clear in the conceptualization of this document. 


2. Easy to say, hard to do 

The second issue is that the controversial part when doing something "in the interest of the people" is not the principle statement, but how to determine what the interest of the people actually is. 

Currently, the IETF is spectacularly ill equipped for that, and the draft does not seem to address the problem, apart from a generic invitation to reach out to civil society organizations and other stakeholders, which however also generally do not represent the interest of "end users", but at most of subsets of them (e.g. the Electronic Frontiers Foundation and the Internet Watch Foundation are going to give you opposite advice on what is in the general public interest and "for social good", though both are civil society organizations). Again, the problem is not how to get multiple end-user interests stated, but how to decide which ones are to prevail, which is always a subjective judgement by each participant, and needs to be aggregated "fairly".

Mankind has worked for centuries to build complex institutional arrangements to get to determine "what's best for the people", and at least for a couple of decades to build similar arrangements specifically for the Internet. Yet there is no indication of their role in this document - it looks like, all of a sudden, the IETF (even at the individual WG level) is going to make its own policy decisions, alone, after running its own consultations with stakeholders. This looks unreliable, unaccountable, uncooperative, and unlikely to bring to any valid result.

In the end, if the IETF is going to adopt this policy, I would suggest that it should also have some ideas on how to implement it and on how it would fit into the broader Internet governance institutional galaxy.


3. This is not (common) law

The draft seems to imply that the IETF is building a corpus of principle documents that are to be used as a binding reference to put an end to any doubt on how to apply the main guideline - basically, a "constitution" of the IETF. The draft actually lists RFC7754, RFC7258, RFC7624 and others.

I sincerely doubt that the policy realm in which we are working is so clear, static and globally uniform that you can express such broader principles and apply them at any time and in any circumstance without further thought. Actually, I think that you need to do the opposite - start with a tentative guideline, see if it actually works in practice, be ready to adapt it to changing circumstances or to new information that shows you that what you thought would work nicely is actually creating more problems than it solves, or conflicts with one of the other guidelines.

And if you still want to establish policy guidelines for protocol development, I think you need to set specifically high barriers for developing them. You must be really sure that they represent broad policy consensus that goes well beyond a small number of IAB or WG members, and - as they affect the whole Internet - beyond the IETF itself.


This is just a set of personal opinions, building on scarce IETF experience but a long personal history in Internet policy; I hope it can contribute usefully to the discussion and I will be happy to continue if the IAB decides to adopt this document.

-- 
 
Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com 
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy


From nobody Tue Jul 23 08:31:15 2019
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To: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>, art@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [arch-d] [art] BCP 190, draft-nottingham-for-the-users, and a generalization
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John --

It's going to take a while for me to formulate my thoughts around what 
you say below. To make sure I understand the class of constraints you're 
concerned about below, can you clarify whether you think they apply to:

  * Documents like BCP 200, RFC 2804, and BCP 188?
  * Documents like BCP 9 and BCP 92?
  * Documents like BCP 25, BCP 54, and BCP 83?

You might see an unstated agenda in the categories of documents I list 
above, so I'll state it explicitly: in the general case, one person's 
important protections against a tragedy of the commons is another 
person's annoying impediment to be ignored and defeated. I get that not 
all of the above read on protocol design; but they do share the common 
feature that they've gone through the IETF consensus process (at least 
to the degree that such a process existed at the time of their 
respective publications). If we're going to carefully parse out the 
meanings of some of them as the will of the community while treating 
others as light guidelines to be ignored when they become cumbersome, 
we're going to need to agree on a pretty bright line that divides those 
categories.

/a


On 7/23/19 08:37, John C Klensin wrote:
> (copying architecture-discuss because the comment I'm about to
> make is an architectural issue and because
> draft-nottingham-for-the-users is under discussion there.)
>
>
> A late colleague, much loved by some of us, used to claim (much
> more elegantly than I can manage) that one of the reasons the
> ARPANET and then the Internet protocols had succeeded and much
> of what was seen as competitive alternatives had not, was that
> our efforts focused on pragmatic, working protocols and
> implementations.
>
> The other folks had developed a culture of formalisms, models,
> and stated design principles.  They then tried to develop
> protocols that fit into the boxes and categories of those
> formalisms, models, and design principles.    When they
> discovered that something didn't fit, they needed to either
> invent kludges or other ways of getting square pegs into round
> holes, go back and revise models and guidance before moving
> forward, or consider and make exceptions (which often required
> first figuring out how to make an exception and developing
> procedures for that).
>
> One difficulty is that the above can waste a lot of time.
> Another is that it can distort protocol design, if only because
> forcing square pegs into round holes tends to be hard on both
> the pegs and the holes.
>
> In many or most fields of application, the nature of engineering
> involves seeing and understanding a range of tradeoffs and then
> doing design work that reflects a carefully-chosen balance among
> them.  Give design elegance absolute priority over structural
> issues and buildings and bridges fall down.  IMO, we need to
> think, and keep thinking, about systems and tradeoffs.  That, in
> turn, means that statements like these that can be interpreted
> in absolute terms, even if we mostly agree with them, should be
> packaged as general guidelines and not BCPs to which everything
> done in the future is required to either conform or to try to
> figure out how to appeal to a higher authority.
>
> I'm not at all convinced that the proposal that was summarized
> an ARTAREA yesterday and that is seen as requiring an exception
> to BCP 190 is a good idea.  But I think our time would be better
> spent, and the Internet more efficiently made better, discussing
> the strengths, weaknesses, and alternatives to that idea rather
> than debating the reach and appropriateness of BCP 190 under
> various circumstances.   Long term and more generally, I think
> that suggests seeing BCP 190 not as a particular set of
> principles and rules but as an example of something we don't
> want to do to ourselves again as a BCP (or as something that
> gets enough of an IAB stamp of approval that people will later
> argue MUST (or SHOULD) be conformed to.  Again, restated as
> general guidance with the assumption that there will be
> exceptions and cases not considered, I don't have much of a
> problem.    If that shoe fits  draft-nottingham-for-the-users,
> so be it.
>
>     john
>
> p.s. I don't mean to pick on Mark here.   While these two
> documents coming up at the same time was handy, I think the
> problem is general and that there are far worse examples
> (examples of which he is not an author) than either of them.
>
> _______________________________________________
> art mailing list
> art@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art



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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">John --<br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">It's going to take a while for me to
      formulate my thoughts around what you say below. To make sure I
      understand the class of constraints you're concerned about below,
      can you clarify whether you think they apply to: <br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">
      <ul>
        <li>Documents like BCP 200, RFC 2804, and BCP 188?</li>
        <li> Documents like BCP 9 and BCP 92?</li>
        <li>Documents like BCP 25, BCP 54, and BCP 83?</li>
      </ul>
      <p>You might see an unstated agenda in the categories of documents
        I list above, so I'll state it explicitly: in the general case,
        one person's important protections against a tragedy of the
        commons is another person's annoying impediment to be ignored
        and defeated. I get that not all of the above read on protocol
        design; but they do share the common feature that they've gone
        through the IETF consensus process (at least to the degree that
        such a process existed at the time of their respective
        publications). If we're going to carefully parse out the
        meanings of some of them as the will of the community while
        treating others as light guidelines to be ignored when they
        become cumbersome, we're going to need to agree on a pretty
        bright line that divides those categories.</p>
      <p>/a<br>
      </p>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 7/23/19 08:37, John C Klensin wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:77F8C1C2AAB5AE251285436F@[172.20.2.211]">
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">(copying architecture-discuss because the comment I'm about to
make is an architectural issue and because
draft-nottingham-for-the-users is under discussion there.)


A late colleague, much loved by some of us, used to claim (much
more elegantly than I can manage) that one of the reasons the
ARPANET and then the Internet protocols had succeeded and much
of what was seen as competitive alternatives had not, was that
our efforts focused on pragmatic, working protocols and
implementations.  

The other folks had developed a culture of formalisms, models,
and stated design principles.  They then tried to develop
protocols that fit into the boxes and categories of those
formalisms, models, and design principles.    When they
discovered that something didn't fit, they needed to either
invent kludges or other ways of getting square pegs into round
holes, go back and revise models and guidance before moving
forward, or consider and make exceptions (which often required
first figuring out how to make an exception and developing
procedures for that).

One difficulty is that the above can waste a lot of time.
Another is that it can distort protocol design, if only because
forcing square pegs into round holes tends to be hard on both
the pegs and the holes.

In many or most fields of application, the nature of engineering
involves seeing and understanding a range of tradeoffs and then
doing design work that reflects a carefully-chosen balance among
them.  Give design elegance absolute priority over structural
issues and buildings and bridges fall down.  IMO, we need to
think, and keep thinking, about systems and tradeoffs.  That, in
turn, means that statements like these that can be interpreted
in absolute terms, even if we mostly agree with them, should be
packaged as general guidelines and not BCPs to which everything
done in the future is required to either conform or to try to
figure out how to appeal to a higher authority.

I'm not at all convinced that the proposal that was summarized
an ARTAREA yesterday and that is seen as requiring an exception
to BCP 190 is a good idea.  But I think our time would be better
spent, and the Internet more efficiently made better, discussing
the strengths, weaknesses, and alternatives to that idea rather
than debating the reach and appropriateness of BCP 190 under
various circumstances.   Long term and more generally, I think
that suggests seeing BCP 190 not as a particular set of
principles and rules but as an example of something we don't
want to do to ourselves again as a BCP (or as something that
gets enough of an IAB stamp of approval that people will later
argue MUST (or SHOULD) be conformed to.  Again, restated as
general guidance with the assumption that there will be
exceptions and cases not considered, I don't have much of a
problem.    If that shoe fits  draft-nottingham-for-the-users,
so be it.

   john

p.s. I don't mean to pick on Mark here.   While these two
documents coming up at the same time was handy, I think the
problem is general and that there are far worse examples
(examples of which he is not an author) than either of them.

_______________________________________________
art mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:art@ietf.org">art@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <p><br>
    </p>
  </body>
</html>

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Subject: Re: [arch-d] IAB Adoption of draft-nottingham-for-the-users-09
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This draft represents a marked improvement.  While I still see some =
small issues to discuss, IMHO the document is Good Enough for the IAB to =
adopt.

Eliot

> On 22 Jul 2019, at 10:09, IAB Executive Administrative Manager =
<execd@iab.org> wrote:
>=20
> The IAB will discuss adoption of draft-nottingham-for-the-users-09 at
> its meeting on 2019-08-07.
>=20
> The draft can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nottingham-for-the-users/
>=20
> The agenda for the meeting will be posted 48 hours ahead of the =
meeting
> here: https://www.iab.org/wiki/index.php/Agenda
>=20
> Feedback about this draft can be sent in response to this mail on
> architecture-discuss@ietf.org, or to the IAB directly at iab@iab.org.
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> _______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [arch-d] BCP 190, draft-nottingham-for-the-users, and a generalization
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Dear architecture-discuss,
& John,

To share what might be inspiring...

In order to propose what should be understood as "concept", "percept" &
"affect", thus as "philosophy" & "art", Deleuze & Guattari ("What is
Philosophy?") mentioned architecture as the first art as art begins with
house: that of which "the most scientific architecture continually produces
and unifies planes and sections... it could be defined as "frame" with a
connection among various frames oriented differently, applied to other
arts...(There is) a composite system consisting of points and
counterpoints... (there is) a matter of sensations (percepts and affects)
combined... (While) the system still needs a composition plane run
"deframing" opening ways from house territory to city-cosmos, the system in
which there are cosmic forces to create new affects...".

There is "asthetic composition" as the working of sensation which is, so
they said, the definition of art...

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Selasa, 23 Juli 2019, Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com> menulis:

> John --
>
> It's going to take a while for me to formulate my thoughts around what you
> say below. To make sure I understand the class of constraints you're
> concerned about below, can you clarify whether you think they apply to:
>
>    - Documents like BCP 200, RFC 2804, and BCP 188?
>    - Documents like BCP 9 and BCP 92?
>    - Documents like BCP 25, BCP 54, and BCP 83?
>
> You might see an unstated agenda in the categories of documents I list
> above, so I'll state it explicitly: in the general case, one person's
> important protections against a tragedy of the commons is another person's
> annoying impediment to be ignored and defeated. I get that not all of the
> above read on protocol design; but they do share the common feature that
> they've gone through the IETF consensus process (at least to the degree
> that such a process existed at the time of their respective publications).
> If we're going to carefully parse out the meanings of some of them as the
> will of the community while treating others as light guidelines to be
> ignored when they become cumbersome, we're going to need to agree on a
> pretty bright line that divides those categories.
>
> /a
>
> On 7/23/19 08:37, John C Klensin wrote:
>
> (copying architecture-discuss because the comment I'm about to
> make is an architectural issue and because
> draft-nottingham-for-the-users is under discussion there.)
>
>
> A late colleague, much loved by some of us, used to claim (much
> more elegantly than I can manage) that one of the reasons the
> ARPANET and then the Internet protocols had succeeded and much
> of what was seen as competitive alternatives had not, was that
> our efforts focused on pragmatic, working protocols and
> implementations.
>
> The other folks had developed a culture of formalisms, models,
> and stated design principles.  They then tried to develop
> protocols that fit into the boxes and categories of those
> formalisms, models, and design principles.    When they
> discovered that something didn't fit, they needed to either
> invent kludges or other ways of getting square pegs into round
> holes, go back and revise models and guidance before moving
> forward, or consider and make exceptions (which often required
> first figuring out how to make an exception and developing
> procedures for that).
>
> One difficulty is that the above can waste a lot of time.
> Another is that it can distort protocol design, if only because
> forcing square pegs into round holes tends to be hard on both
> the pegs and the holes.
>
> In many or most fields of application, the nature of engineering
> involves seeing and understanding a range of tradeoffs and then
> doing design work that reflects a carefully-chosen balance among
> them.  Give design elegance absolute priority over structural
> issues and buildings and bridges fall down.  IMO, we need to
> think, and keep thinking, about systems and tradeoffs.  That, in
> turn, means that statements like these that can be interpreted
> in absolute terms, even if we mostly agree with them, should be
> packaged as general guidelines and not BCPs to which everything
> done in the future is required to either conform or to try to
> figure out how to appeal to a higher authority.
>
> I'm not at all convinced that the proposal that was summarized
> an ARTAREA yesterday and that is seen as requiring an exception
> to BCP 190 is a good idea.  But I think our time would be better
> spent, and the Internet more efficiently made better, discussing
> the strengths, weaknesses, and alternatives to that idea rather
> than debating the reach and appropriateness of BCP 190 under
> various circumstances.   Long term and more generally, I think
> that suggests seeing BCP 190 not as a particular set of
> principles and rules but as an example of something we don't
> want to do to ourselves again as a BCP (or as something that
> gets enough of an IAB stamp of approval that people will later
> argue MUST (or SHOULD) be conformed to.  Again, restated as
> general guidance with the assumption that there will be
> exceptions and cases not considered, I don't have much of a
> problem.    If that shoe fits  draft-nottingham-for-the-users,
> so be it.
>
>    john
>
> p.s. I don't mean to pick on Mark here.   While these two
> documents coming up at the same time was handy, I think the
> problem is general and that there are far worse examples
> (examples of which he is not an author) than either of them.
>
> _______________________________________________
> art mailing listart@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art
>
>
>

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Dear architecture-discuss,<div>&amp; John,<br></div><div><br></div><div>To =
share what might be inspiring...<br><div><br></div><div>In order to propose=
 what should be understood as &quot;concept&quot;, &quot;percept&quot; &amp=
; &quot;affect&quot;, thus as &quot;philosophy&quot; &amp; &quot;art&quot;,=
 Deleuze &amp; Guattari (&quot;What is Philosophy?&quot;) mentioned archite=
cture as the first art as art begins with house: that of which &quot;the mo=
st scientific architecture continually produces and unifies planes and sect=
ions... it could be defined as &quot;frame&quot; with a connection among va=
rious frames oriented differently, applied to other arts...(There is) a com=
posite system consisting of points and counterpoints... (there is) a matter=
 of sensations (percepts and affects) combined... (While) the system still =
needs a composition plane run &quot;deframing&quot; opening ways from house=
 territory to city-cosmos, the system in which there are cosmic forces to c=
reate new affects...&quot;.</div><div><br></div><div>There is &quot;astheti=
c composition&quot; as the working of sensation which is, so they said, the=
 definition of art...</div><div><br></div><div>Regard,</div><div>Guntur Wis=
eno Putra<br><br>Pada Selasa, 23 Juli 2019, Adam Roach &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:adam@nostrum.com">adam@nostrum.com</a>&gt; menulis:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex">
 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    <div>John --<br>
    </div>
    <div><br>
    </div>
    <div>It&#39;s going to take a while for me to
      formulate my thoughts around what you say below. To make sure I
      understand the class of constraints you&#39;re concerned about below,
      can you clarify whether you think they apply to: <br>
    </div>
    <div>
      <ul>
        <li>Documents like BCP 200, RFC 2804, and BCP 188?</li>
        <li> Documents like BCP 9 and BCP 92?</li>
        <li>Documents like BCP 25, BCP 54, and BCP 83?</li>
      </ul>
      <p>You might see an unstated agenda in the categories of documents
        I list above, so I&#39;ll state it explicitly: in the general case,
        one person&#39;s important protections against a tragedy of the
        commons is another person&#39;s annoying impediment to be ignored
        and defeated. I get that not all of the above read on protocol
        design; but they do share the common feature that they&#39;ve gone
        through the IETF consensus process (at least to the degree that
        such a process existed at the time of their respective
        publications). If we&#39;re going to carefully parse out the
        meanings of some of them as the will of the community while
        treating others as light guidelines to be ignored when they
        become cumbersome, we&#39;re going to need to agree on a pretty
        bright line that divides those categories.</p>
      <p>/a<br>
      </p>
    </div>
    <div><br>
    </div>
    <div>On 7/23/19 08:37, John C Klensin wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <pre>(copying architecture-discuss because the comment I&#39;m about =
to
make is an architectural issue and because
draft-nottingham-for-the-users is under discussion there.)


A late colleague, much loved by some of us, used to claim (much
more elegantly than I can manage) that one of the reasons the
ARPANET and then the Internet protocols had succeeded and much
of what was seen as competitive alternatives had not, was that
our efforts focused on pragmatic, working protocols and
implementations. =20

The other folks had developed a culture of formalisms, models,
and stated design principles.  They then tried to develop
protocols that fit into the boxes and categories of those
formalisms, models, and design principles.    When they
discovered that something didn&#39;t fit, they needed to either
invent kludges or other ways of getting square pegs into round
holes, go back and revise models and guidance before moving
forward, or consider and make exceptions (which often required
first figuring out how to make an exception and developing
procedures for that).

One difficulty is that the above can waste a lot of time.
Another is that it can distort protocol design, if only because
forcing square pegs into round holes tends to be hard on both
the pegs and the holes.

In many or most fields of application, the nature of engineering
involves seeing and understanding a range of tradeoffs and then
doing design work that reflects a carefully-chosen balance among
them.  Give design elegance absolute priority over structural
issues and buildings and bridges fall down.  IMO, we need to
think, and keep thinking, about systems and tradeoffs.  That, in
turn, means that statements like these that can be interpreted
in absolute terms, even if we mostly agree with them, should be
packaged as general guidelines and not BCPs to which everything
done in the future is required to either conform or to try to
figure out how to appeal to a higher authority.

I&#39;m not at all convinced that the proposal that was summarized
an ARTAREA yesterday and that is seen as requiring an exception
to BCP 190 is a good idea.  But I think our time would be better
spent, and the Internet more efficiently made better, discussing
the strengths, weaknesses, and alternatives to that idea rather
than debating the reach and appropriateness of BCP 190 under
various circumstances.   Long term and more generally, I think
that suggests seeing BCP 190 not as a particular set of
principles and rules but as an example of something we don&#39;t
want to do to ourselves again as a BCP (or as something that
gets enough of an IAB stamp of approval that people will later
argue MUST (or SHOULD) be conformed to.  Again, restated as
general guidance with the assumption that there will be
exceptions and cases not considered, I don&#39;t have much of a
problem.    If that shoe fits  draft-nottingham-for-the-<wbr>users,
so be it.

   john

p.s. I don&#39;t mean to pick on Mark here.   While these two
documents coming up at the same time was handy, I think the
problem is general and that there are far worse examples
(examples of which he is not an author) than either of them.

______________________________<wbr>_________________
art mailing list
<a href=3D"mailto:art@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">art@ietf.org</a>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/art</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <p><br>
    </p>
  </div>

</blockquote></div></div>

--000000000000c73fe0058e6dc790--


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Subject: Re: [arch-d] IAB Adoption of draft-nottingham-for-the-users-09
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On 15:31 23/07/2019, Vittorio Bertola said:
>The draft seems to imply that the IETF is building a corpus of 
>principle documents that are to be used as a binding reference to 
>put an end to any doubt on how to apply the main guideline - 
>basically, a "constitution" of the IETF. The draft actually lists 
>RFC7754, RFC7258, RFC7624 and others.

Dear Vittorio,

35 years years ago I used to come to your Turino place, to discuss 
with FIAT's EDP Director and his team about their plan for the 
preparation of their corporate network, as I did with Philips, 
Unilever, Visa, Swift, many PTTs, etc. They guested me because they 
used my machine at Italcable to access their US hosts and wanted our 
technology. Then, I am afraid the world suffered from a 30 years 
technological militaro-industrial TCP take-over and status-quo. It 
has not yet recovered from it.

There are two subtly different ways, but with important consequences, 
to approach technology:

1. As an end in itself: it must always be improved to be available 
for better performance, innovation, and new types of uses, which 
might lead it to be used to control it (cf. IAB warnings in 
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3869>RFC 3869).

1.1. This is the position of the IETF, in the academic tradition of 
Licklider, John McCarthy, etc. It links to IEEE, IAB, IETF, ISOC, and 
W3C). The goal of the IETF is to make the Internet work better. The 
mission of the IETF is to produce high quality, relevant technical 
and engineering documents that influence the way people design, use, 
and manage the Internet in such a way as to make the Internet work better. »

1.2. Technology influences people. Code is law.  i.e. Eventually law 
should be code, i.e. standards by standard makers.

2. as a prothesis that is to extend the human individual and 
collective capacities: for a "plus human" by the "plus machina".

2.1. This was the Tymshare (Augment) philosophy by sharing machines 
(Doug Engelbart, augmentation) and diktyological (networking) power, 
the extended (intelligent) networking of the multitude (my mid-1980 
Tymnet Extended Network Services) of sovereign users 
(capacitation).  To fully understand this you need to know the true 
digital network story.

2.2. This also is the position of the WSIS: a knowledge society that 
is to be "people-centered, à caractère humain, centrada en la persona".

You would like to consider the points of possible relations between 
the IETF and the Governments, civil society, private sector, and 
international organizations that coordinate through the IGF, the IETF 
was missed at the WSIS. It was then led by Brian Carpenter who 
happened to live in Geneva. His position at the time was « the least 
he heard of it the best it was ». So nothing was discussed. On 
20131210, when the Sao Paulo US/Brazil attempt was on its way, he 
explained: « Does anyone have a shred of respect for anything that 
came out of WSIS?[…] The best thing the IGF (and the Brazil meeting) 
could do is ban the G word and separate the two discussions. » 
Typical  IETF/American "ITU/UNO-phobia".

Please note that, as far as we (the individual users' multitude) are 
concerned, there is a still available low layer catenet, hampered by 
the various ISP filters to address the IETF TCP patches and to comply 
with GAFGovs pollution (existing and still more to come). Until now, 
it still survives at the lowest UDP layers. Google tries to make 
something out of it (quic), the same as I am trying to do with fellow 
academic seniors (we have temporarily named it « kyk » (the « kick 
your knowledge per machinam» project, resuming at the 1986 level (1), 
plus what software developed in 30 years in spite of the IETF 
technical status quo).

I agree, everyone must fight industrial pollution. Some quit smoking, 
and the IAB considers this draft. Why not? Anyway, I guesstimate the 
ICANN pollution peaked a few years ago. Now it is patching the IETF 
IDNA into the UA-1500 TLDs rigmarole.

Vale !
Jefsey

---
(1) because we think that the network node operating system for 
communication processing should function in continuity with the very 
network architecture.



--=====================_1103554296==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

<html>
<body>
On 15:31 23/07/2019, Vittorio Bertola said:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">The draft seems to imply that
the IETF is building a corpus of principle documents that are to be used
as a binding reference to put an end to any doubt on how to apply the
main guideline - basically, a &quot;constitution&quot; of the IETF. The
draft actually lists RFC7754, RFC7258, RFC7624 and
others.</blockquote><br>
Dear Vittorio,<br><br>
35 years years ago I used to come to your Turino place, to discuss with
FIAT's EDP Director and his team about their plan for the preparation of
their corporate network, as I did with Philips, Unilever, Visa, Swift,
many PTTs, etc. They guested me because they used my machine at Italcable
to access their US hosts and wanted our technology. Then, I am afraid the
world suffered from a 30 years technological militaro-industrial TCP
take-over and status-quo. It has not yet recovered from it.<br><br>
There are two subtly different ways, but with important consequences, to
approach technology: <br><br>
1. As an end in itself: it must always be improved to be available for
better performance, innovation, and new types of uses, which might lead
it to be used to control it (cf. IAB warnings in
<a href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3869">RFC 3869</a>). <br><br>
1.1. This is the position of the IETF, in the academic tradition of
Licklider, John McCarthy, etc. It links to IEEE, IAB, IETF, ISOC, and
W3C). The goal of the IETF is to make the Internet work better. The
mission of the IETF is to produce high quality, relevant technical and
engineering documents that <b>influence</b> the way people design,
<b>use</b>, and manage the Internet in such a way as to make the Internet
work better. » <br><br>
1.2. Technology influences people. Code is law.&nbsp; i.e. Eventually law
should be code, i.e. standards by standard makers.<br><br>
2. as a prothesis that is to extend the human individual and collective
capacities: for a &quot;plus human&quot; by the &quot;plus machina&quot;.
<br><br>
2.1. This was the Tymshare (<i>Augment</i>) philosophy by sharing
machines (Doug Engelbart, <i>augmentation</i>) and diktyological
(<i>networking</i>) power, the extended (intelligent) networking of the
multitude (my mid-1980 <i>Tymnet Extended Network Services</i>) of
sovereign users (<i>capacitation</i>).&nbsp; <i>To fully understand this
you need to know the true digital network story.<br><br>
</i>2.2. This also is the position of the WSIS: a knowledge society that
is to be &quot;people-centered, à caractère humain, centrada en la
persona&quot;. <br><br>
You would like to consider the points of possible relations between the
IETF and the Governments, civil society, private sector, and
international organizations that coordinate through the IGF, the IETF was
missed at the WSIS. It was then led by Brian Carpenter who happened to
live in Geneva. His position at the time was « the least he heard of it
the best it was ». So nothing was discussed. On 20131210, when the Sao
Paulo US/Brazil attempt was on its way, he explained: « Does anyone have
a shred of respect for anything that came out of WSIS?[…] The best thing
the IGF (and the Brazil meeting) could do is ban the G word and separate
the two discussions. » Typical&nbsp; IETF/American
&quot;ITU/UNO-phobia&quot;. <br><br>
Please note that, as far as we (the individual users' multitude) are
concerned, there is a still available low layer catenet, hampered by the
various ISP filters to address the IETF TCP patches and to comply with
GAFGovs pollution (existing and still more to come). Until now, it still
survives at the lowest UDP layers. Google tries to make something out of
it (quic), the same as I am trying to do with fellow academic seniors (we
have temporarily named it « kyk » (the « kick your knowledge <i>per
machinam</i>» project, resuming at the 1986 level (1), plus what software
developed in 30 years in spite of the IETF technical status quo).
<br><br>
I agree, everyone must fight industrial pollution. Some quit smoking, and
the IAB considers this draft. Why not? Anyway, I guesstimate the ICANN
pollution peaked a few years ago. Now it is patching the IETF IDNA into
the UA-1500 TLDs rigmarole.<br><br>
Vale !<br>
Jefsey<br><br>
--- <br>
<i>(1) because we think that the network node operating system for
communication processing should function in continuity with the very
network architecture. <br><br>
<br>
</i></body>
</html>

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Subject: Re: [arch-d] Call for Comment: <draft-iab-fiftyyears-00> (Fifty Years of RFCs)
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Hi,

I recently learned of the Fifty Years of RFCs draft (
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-fiftyyears/) and the associated
call for comment. I'd like to offer some commentary on it from what may be
a unique position: I've spent 2019 to date reading and blogging about each
RFC sequentially starting with RFC 1.

In other words, I've been running an RFC history project, and it's been
pretty popular.

One blessing of this project is I get to talk on almost a daily basis with
what I'd call your typical software developer or even your typical internet
user about the RFC series and its history. And there is one piece of
historical context around RFCs that nobody seems to understand, and this
draft might be a good place to set the record straight.

Simply put: it would be nice to highlight that the original RFCs were
coordinated using a physical mailing list of postal addresses and then
distributed via post. That these were sometimes typewritten, and sometimes
even handwritten (in the cases of RFCs 7 and 8). That there were people
manually compiling these lists of addresses, making carbon copies (or
similar), and mailing them out (as seen in early RFCs like RFC 24).

This may seem like a minor note, but I bring this up because I can't
overstate how mind-blowing it is for people to realize that of COURSE these
early inventors and experimenters had to use the postal service. They were
literally inventing the internet!

For many people, this is where interest in the history of RFCs goes from
"that sounds boring" to "that sounds amazing".

Anyway, I only suggest a brief expansion on the sentence in the
introduction about "the distribution method change from postal mail to FTP
and email." (To her credit, Jake Feinler does address this topic
concretely, though still in passing, in RFC 2555.)

Thanks for reading/considering,
Darius Kazemi

P.S. The introduction to the above-mentioned blog series is here:
https://write.as/365-rfcs/365-ietf-rfcs-a-50th-anniversary-dive

--0000000000000adc8e058e79f66a
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi,</div><div><br></div><div>I recently learned of th=
e Fifty Years of RFCs draft (<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dr=
aft-iab-fiftyyears/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-fiftyyears/=
</a>) and the associated call for comment. I&#39;d like to offer some comme=
ntary on it from what may be a unique position: I&#39;ve spent 2019 to date=
 reading and blogging about each RFC sequentially starting with RFC 1.</div=
><div><br></div><div>In other words, I&#39;ve been running an RFC history p=
roject, and it&#39;s been pretty popular.</div><div><br></div><div>One bles=
sing of this project is I get to talk on almost a daily basis with what I&#=
39;d call your typical software developer or even your typical internet use=
r about the RFC series and its history. And there is one piece of historica=
l context around RFCs that nobody seems to understand, and this draft might=
 be a good place to set the record straight.<br></div><div><br></div><div>S=
imply put: it would be nice to highlight that the original RFCs were coordi=
nated using a physical mailing list of postal addresses and then distribute=
d via post. That these were sometimes typewritten, and sometimes even handw=
ritten (in the cases of RFCs 7 and 8).=C2=A0That there were people manually=
 compiling these lists of addresses, making carbon copies (or similar), and=
 mailing them out (as seen in early RFCs like RFC 24).</div><div><br></div>=
<div>This may seem like a minor note, but I bring this up because I can&#39=
;t overstate how mind-blowing it is for people to realize that of COURSE th=
ese early inventors and experimenters had to use the postal service. They w=
ere literally inventing the internet!</div><div><br></div><div>For many peo=
ple, this is where interest in the history of RFCs goes from &quot;that sou=
nds boring&quot; to &quot;that sounds amazing&quot;.</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>Anyway, I only suggest a brief expansion on the sentence in the introduc=
tion about &quot;the distribution method change from postal mail to FTP and=
 email.&quot; (To her credit, Jake Feinler does address this topic concrete=
ly, though still in passing, in RFC 2555.)</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks =
for reading/considering,</div><div>Darius Kazemi</div><div><br></div><div>P=
.S. The introduction to the above-mentioned blog series is here: <a href=3D=
"https://write.as/365-rfcs/365-ietf-rfcs-a-50th-anniversary-dive">https://w=
rite.as/365-rfcs/365-ietf-rfcs-a-50th-anniversary-dive</a></div></div>

--0000000000000adc8e058e79f66a--


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Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 06:48:25 +0100
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Subject: Re: [arch-d] Call for Comment: <draft-iab-fiftyyears-00> (Fifty Years of RFCs)
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Hiya,

On 25/07/2019 05:35, Darius Kazemi wrote:
> The introduction to the above-mentioned blog series is here:
> https://write.as/365-rfcs/365-ietf-rfcs-a-50th-anniversary-dive

That's pretty cool, thanks!

I happened to be re-reading RFC20 recently, and liked
your gloss on that. (I have not yet read your take on
others, sorry.)

I hope you finish up to 365, have fun with that, write
up a summary, and then head on to do the next 8000 of
'em:-)

Cheers,
S.


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From: "Andrew G. Malis" <agmalis@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 07:25:59 -0400
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To: Darius Kazemi <darius.kazemi@gmail.com>
Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org, IAB <iab@iab.org>
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Subject: Re: [arch-d] Call for Comment: <draft-iab-fiftyyears-00> (Fifty Years of RFCs)
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Darius,

Very nice blog!

I saw your recent post on the internet-history list, but you just mentioned
your blog in passing, and it was easy to miss as it wasn't the primary
topic. You might want to give that list more of an intro to your blog, I'm
sure that you'll find some very interested readers there.

Cheers,
Andy


On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 12:36 AM Darius Kazemi <darius.kazemi@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I recently learned of the Fifty Years of RFCs draft (
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-fiftyyears/) and the
> associated call for comment. I'd like to offer some commentary on it from
> what may be a unique position: I've spent 2019 to date reading and blogging
> about each RFC sequentially starting with RFC 1.
>
> In other words, I've been running an RFC history project, and it's been
> pretty popular.
>
> One blessing of this project is I get to talk on almost a daily basis with
> what I'd call your typical software developer or even your typical internet
> user about the RFC series and its history. And there is one piece of
> historical context around RFCs that nobody seems to understand, and this
> draft might be a good place to set the record straight.
>
> Simply put: it would be nice to highlight that the original RFCs were
> coordinated using a physical mailing list of postal addresses and then
> distributed via post. That these were sometimes typewritten, and sometimes
> even handwritten (in the cases of RFCs 7 and 8). That there were people
> manually compiling these lists of addresses, making carbon copies (or
> similar), and mailing them out (as seen in early RFCs like RFC 24).
>
> This may seem like a minor note, but I bring this up because I can't
> overstate how mind-blowing it is for people to realize that of COURSE these
> early inventors and experimenters had to use the postal service. They were
> literally inventing the internet!
>
> For many people, this is where interest in the history of RFCs goes from
> "that sounds boring" to "that sounds amazing".
>
> Anyway, I only suggest a brief expansion on the sentence in the
> introduction about "the distribution method change from postal mail to FTP
> and email." (To her credit, Jake Feinler does address this topic
> concretely, though still in passing, in RFC 2555.)
>
> Thanks for reading/considering,
> Darius Kazemi
>
> P..S. The introduction to the above-mentioned blog series is here:
> https://write.as/365-rfcs/365-ietf-rfcs-a-50th-anniversary-dive
> _______________________________________________
> Architecture-discuss mailing list
> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Darius,<div><br></div><div>Very nice blog!=C2=A0</div><div=
><br></div><div>I saw your recent post on the internet-history list, but yo=
u just mentioned your blog in passing, and it was easy to miss as it wasn&#=
39;t the primary topic. You might want to give that list more of an intro t=
o your blog, I&#39;m sure that you&#39;ll find some very interested readers=
 there.</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>Andy</div><div><br></div=
></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr"=
>On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 12:36 AM Darius Kazemi &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dariu=
s.kazemi@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">darius.kazemi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote=
:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.=
8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><div>Hi,</div><div><br></div><div>I recently learned of the Fifty Years =
of RFCs draft (<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-fiftyy=
ears/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-fiftyye=
ars/</a>) and the associated call for comment. I&#39;d like to offer some c=
ommentary on it from what may be a unique position: I&#39;ve spent 2019 to =
date reading and blogging about each RFC sequentially starting with RFC 1.<=
/div><div><br></div><div>In other words, I&#39;ve been running an RFC histo=
ry project, and it&#39;s been pretty popular.</div><div><br></div><div>One =
blessing of this project is I get to talk on almost a daily basis with what=
 I&#39;d call your typical software developer or even your typical internet=
 user about the RFC series and its history. And there is one piece of histo=
rical context around RFCs that nobody seems to understand, and this draft m=
ight be a good place to set the record straight.<br></div><div><br></div><d=
iv>Simply put: it would be nice to highlight that the original RFCs were co=
ordinated using a physical mailing list of postal addresses and then distri=
buted via post. That these were sometimes typewritten, and sometimes even h=
andwritten (in the cases of RFCs 7 and 8).=C2=A0That there were people manu=
ally compiling these lists of addresses, making carbon copies (or similar),=
 and mailing them out (as seen in early RFCs like RFC 24).</div><div><br></=
div><div>This may seem like a minor note, but I bring this up because I can=
&#39;t overstate how mind-blowing it is for people to realize that of COURS=
E these early inventors and experimenters had to use the postal service. Th=
ey were literally inventing the internet!</div><div><br></div><div>For many=
 people, this is where interest in the history of RFCs goes from &quot;that=
 sounds boring&quot; to &quot;that sounds amazing&quot;.</div><div><br></di=
v><div>Anyway, I only suggest a brief expansion on the sentence in the intr=
oduction about &quot;the distribution method change from postal mail to FTP=
 and email.&quot; (To her credit, Jake Feinler does address this topic conc=
retely, though still in passing, in RFC 2555.)</div><div><br></div><div>Tha=
nks for reading/considering,</div><div>Darius Kazemi</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>P..S. The introduction to the above-mentioned blog series is here: <a hr=
ef=3D"https://write.as/365-rfcs/365-ietf-rfcs-a-50th-anniversary-dive" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://write.as/365-rfcs/365-ietf-rfcs-a-50th-anniversary-di=
ve</a></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Architecture-discuss mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Architecture-discuss@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Architec=
ture-discuss@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss" rel=
=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/arc=
hitecture-discuss</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

--00000000000045984e058e7fb1f4--


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From: Heather Flanagan <rse@rfc-editor.org>
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Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 08:40:32 -0400
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To: Darius Kazemi <darius.kazemi@gmail.com>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/architecture-discuss/NqnI48KWK0946D97IBdz913ie20>
Subject: Re: [arch-d] [IAB] Call for Comment: <draft-iab-fiftyyears-00> (Fifty Years of RFCs)
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> On Jul 25, 2019, at 00:35, Darius Kazemi <darius.kazemi@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> I recently learned of the Fifty Years of RFCs draft (https://datatracker.i=
etf.org/doc/draft-iab-fiftyyears/) and the associated call for comment. I'd l=
ike to offer some commentary on it from what may be a unique position: I've s=
pent 2019 to date reading and blogging about each RFC sequentially starting w=
ith RFC 1.
>=20
> In other words, I've been running an RFC history project, and it's been pr=
etty popular.
>=20
> One blessing of this project is I get to talk on almost a daily basis with=
 what I'd call your typical software developer or even your typical internet=
 user about the RFC series and its history. And there is one piece of histor=
ical context around RFCs that nobody seems to understand, and this draft mig=
ht be a good place to set the record straight.
>=20
> Simply put: it would be nice to highlight that the original RFCs were coor=
dinated using a physical mailing list of postal addresses and then distribut=
ed via post. That these were sometimes typewritten, and sometimes even handw=
ritten (in the cases of RFCs 7 and 8). That there were people manually compi=
ling these lists of addresses, making carbon copies (or similar), and mailin=
g them out (as seen in early RFCs like RFC 24).
>=20
> This may seem like a minor note, but I bring this up because I can't overs=
tate how mind-blowing it is for people to realize that of COURSE these early=
 inventors and experimenters had to use the postal service. They were litera=
lly inventing the internet!
>=20
> For many people, this is where interest in the history of RFCs goes from "=
that sounds boring" to "that sounds amazing".
>=20
> Anyway, I only suggest a brief expansion on the sentence in the introducti=
on about "the distribution method change from postal mail to FTP and email."=
 (To her credit, Jake Feinler does address this topic concretely, though sti=
ll in passing, in RFC 2555.)
>=20
> Thanks for reading/considering,
> Darius Kazemi
>=20
> P..S. The introduction to the above-mentioned blog series is here: https:/=
/write.as/365-rfcs/365-ietf-rfcs-a-50th-anniversary-dive

Hi Darius,

First, your blog is fantastic! You are helping improve the RFC Series throug=
h the work.

Regarding your suggestion, excellent point. I will add that to the draft.

-Heather


--Apple-Mail-AFEE41EF-2F1C-4134-B849-EE3ADCA8257E
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><br><div><div dir=3D"ltr"></div><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><br>On Jul 25, 2019, at 00:35, Darius Kazemi &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dar=
ius.kazemi@gmail.com">darius.kazemi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><b=
lockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi,</div><div=
><br></div><div>I recently learned of the Fifty Years of RFCs draft (<a href=
=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-fiftyyears/">https://datatrac=
ker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-fiftyyears/</a>) and the associated call for comm=
ent. I'd like to offer some commentary on it from what may be a unique posit=
ion: I've spent 2019 to date reading and blogging about each RFC sequentiall=
y starting with RFC 1.</div><div><br></div><div>In other words, I've been ru=
nning an RFC history project, and it's been pretty popular.</div><div><br></=
div><div>One blessing of this project is I get to talk on almost a daily bas=
is with what I'd call your typical software developer or even your typical i=
nternet user about the RFC series and its history. And there is one piece of=
 historical context around RFCs that nobody seems to understand, and this dr=
aft might be a good place to set the record straight.<br></div><div><br></di=
v><div>Simply put: it would be nice to highlight that the original RFCs were=
 coordinated using a physical mailing list of postal addresses and then dist=
ributed via post. That these were sometimes typewritten, and sometimes even h=
andwritten (in the cases of RFCs 7 and 8).&nbsp;That there were people manua=
lly compiling these lists of addresses, making carbon copies (or similar), a=
nd mailing them out (as seen in early RFCs like RFC 24).</div><div><br></div=
><div>This may seem like a minor note, but I bring this up because I can't o=
verstate how mind-blowing it is for people to realize that of COURSE these e=
arly inventors and experimenters had to use the postal service. They were li=
terally inventing the internet!</div><div><br></div><div>For many people, th=
is is where interest in the history of RFCs goes from "that sounds boring" t=
o "that sounds amazing".</div><div><br></div><div>Anyway, I only suggest a b=
rief expansion on the sentence in the introduction about "the distribution m=
ethod change from postal mail to FTP and email." (To her credit, Jake Feinle=
r does address this topic concretely, though still in passing, in RFC 2555.)=
</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks for reading/considering,</div><div>Darius K=
azemi</div><div><br></div><div>P..S. The introduction to the above-mentioned=
 blog series is here: <a href=3D"https://write.as/365-rfcs/365-ietf-rfcs-a-5=
0th-anniversary-dive">https://write.as/365-rfcs/365-ietf-rfcs-a-50th-anniver=
sary-dive</a></div></div>
</div></blockquote><br></div><div><span style=3D"background-color: rgba(255,=
 255, 255, 0);">Hi Darius,</span><div><span style=3D"background-color: rgba(=
255, 255, 255, 0);"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"background-color: r=
gba(255, 255, 255, 0);">First, your blog is fantastic! You are helping impro=
ve the RFC Series through the work.</span></div><div><span style=3D"backgrou=
nd-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"back=
ground-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Regarding your suggestion, excellent p=
oint. I will add that to the draft.</span></div><div><span style=3D"backgrou=
nd-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"back=
ground-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">-Heather<br><br></span></div></div></=
body></html>=

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From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org
Cc: "Liubing (Leo)" <leo.liubing@huawei.com>
References: <156357072926.30941.12327072409526858356.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>
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Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 02:31:12 +1200
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/architecture-discuss/Zh_dLJgIpl8XJejyuVRc8R2waBs>
Subject: [arch-d] Fwd: ID Tracker Stream Change Notice: <draft-carpenter-limited-domains-09.txt>
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Hi,

Since the Limited Domains draft has been discussed on this list, this is to let you know that we've now submitted it for publication as an Independent Submission RFC.

Feedback is of course still very welcome.

Regards
     Brian & Bing


-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: ID Tracker Stream Change Notice: <draft-carpenter-limited-domains-09.txt>
Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 14:12:09 -0700 (PDT)
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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 14:12:09 -0700
From: IETF Secretariat <ietf-secretariat-reply@ietf.org>
To: draft-carpenter-limited-domains@ietf.org, rfc-ise@rfc-editor.org

Stream changed to ISE from None
Datatracker URL: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-limited-domains/



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From: pradeep xplorer <pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
To: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" <architecture-discuss@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-geolocationtp-std-00.txt
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Subject: [arch-d] Fw: New Version Notification for draft-geolocationtp-std-00.txt
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________________________________
From: pradeep@explodingmoon.org <pradeep@explodingmoon.org>
Sent: Friday, July 26, 2019 9:38:25 AM
To: pradeepan88@hotmail.com <pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
Subject: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-geolocationtp-std-00.txt


----- Forwarded message from internet-drafts@ietf.org -----
    Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 21:03:01 -0700
    From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-geolocationtp-std-00.txt
      To: pradeep xplorer <pradeep@explodingmoon.org>, Pradeep Kumar
Xplorer <pradeep@explodingmoon.org>

A new version of I-D, draft-geolocationtp-std-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Pradeep Kumar Xplorer and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:           draft-geolocationtp-std
Revision:       00
Title:          The need for Geo location transport protocol
Document date:  2019-07-26
Group:          Individual Submission
Pages:          4
URL:
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-geolocationtp-std-00.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-geolocationtp-std/
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-geolocationtp-std-00
Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-geolocationtp-s=
td


Abstract:
     This document describes the need for a Geo location based
transport protocol



Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat

----- End forwarded message -----



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<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" st=
yle=3D"font-size:11pt" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> pradeep@explodingmoon=
.org &lt;pradeep@explodingmoon.org&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 26, 2019 9:38:25 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> pradeepan88@hotmail.com &lt;pradeepan88@hotmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-geolocationtp-std-0=
0.txt</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
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">
<div class=3D"PlainText"><br>
----- Forwarded message from internet-drafts@ietf.org -----<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 21:03:01 -0700<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; From: internet-drafts@ietf.org<br>
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-geolocationtp-std-00.txt<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; To: pradeep xplorer &lt;pradeep@explodingmoo=
n.org&gt;, Pradeep Kumar&nbsp; <br>
Xplorer &lt;pradeep@explodingmoon.org&gt;<br>
<br>
A new version of I-D, draft-geolocationtp-std-00.txt<br>
has been successfully submitted by Pradeep Kumar Xplorer and posted to the<=
br>
IETF repository.<br>
<br>
Name:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; draft-geo=
locationtp-std<br>
Revision:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 00<br>
Title:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The need for G=
eo location transport protocol<br>
Document date:&nbsp; 2019-07-26<br>
Group:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Individual Sub=
mission<br>
Pages:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 4<br>
URL:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; <br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-geolocationtp-std-00.=
txt">https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-geolocationtp-std-00.txt</a=
><br>
Status:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href=3D"https://=
datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-geolocationtp-std/">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-geolocationtp-std/</a><br>
Htmlized:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf=
.org/html/draft-geolocationtp-std-00">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-geolocationtp-std-00</a><br>
Htmlized:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href=3D"https://datatracke=
r.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-geolocationtp-std">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-geolocationtp-std</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; This document describes the need for a Geo locatio=
n based&nbsp; <br>
transport protocol<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n<br>
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.<br>
<br>
The IETF Secretariat<br>
<br>
----- End forwarded message -----<br>
<br>
<br>
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From: pradeep xplorer <pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
To: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" <architecture-discuss@ietf.org>
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Subject: [arch-d] Fw: ATTACK COMPLAINT
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From: pradeep xplorer <pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
To: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" <architecture-discuss@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Hostility by Strangers : Case if HUman rights abuse US SS 619726729
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Subject: [arch-d] Fw: Hostility by Strangers : Case if HUman rights abuse US SS 619726729
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________________________________
From: pradeep xplorer <pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2019 10:41:00 AM
To: ladyofmanynames@gmail.com <ladyofmanynames@gmail.com>; ardenfire@yahoo.=
com <ardenfire@yahoo.com>; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com <fmcreative@fantasy=
makers.com>; icann@icann.org <icann@icann.org>; scottm@wayin.com <scottm@wa=
yin.com>; info@agamayoga.com <info@agamayoga.com>; mail@ashtangayoga.info <=
mail@ashtangayoga.info>; amyji2@gmail.com <amyji2@gmail.com>; dwestergreen@=
koenigrubloff.com <dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com>; scotte.stafford@siap.pe=
ntagon.mil <scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil>; info@yogaworks.com <info@yo=
gaworks.com>; john.c.gerspach@citi.com <john.c.gerspach@citi.com>; larry.el=
lison@oracle.com <larry.ellison@oracle.com>; askvisausa@visa.com <askvisaus=
a@visa.com>; info@yogasource.com <info@yogasource.com>; larrypage@google.co=
m <larrypage@google.com>; rwalker@scscourt.org <rwalker@scscourt.org>; info=
@yogaalliance.org <info@yogaalliance.org>; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com <zoe.ti=
llman@buzzfeed.com>; amy@amytanathorn.com <amy@amytanathorn.com>; hr@harbin=
.org <hr@harbin.org>; dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov <dmvmediarelations@dmv.c=
a.gov>; sumbody@sumbody.com <sumbody@sumbody.com>; askdoj@usdoj.gov <askdoj=
@usdoj.gov>; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov <pao.eoir@usdoj.gov>; jack@twitter.com <jac=
k@twitter.com>; alerts@wellsfargo.com <alerts@wellsfargo.com>; Deptc@jcap.c=
om <Deptc@jcap.com>; ssa.comments@ssa.gov <ssa.comments@ssa.gov>; info@kino=
yoga.com <info@kinoyoga.com>; info@homeopathyhongkong.org <info@homeopathyh=
ongkong.org>; askvisa@visa.com <askvisa@visa.com>; ocharmenia@mail.com <och=
armenia@mail.com>; chcadmin@comcast.net <chcadmin@comcast.net>; nashinfo@ao=
l.com <nashinfo@aol.com>; abuse@chase.com <abuse@chase.com>; benefits.appli=
cation@ssa.gov <benefits.application@ssa.gov>; opportillo@globeacceptance.c=
om <opportillo@globeacceptance.com>; hilaryacer@gmail.com <hilaryacer@gmail=
.com>; indian_punk@outlook.com <indian_punk@outlook.com>; rajik.sharma@hdfc=
bank.com <rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com>; ehc@lighthouse-sf.org <ehc@lighthouse=
-sf.org>; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com <efcc.nigeria.org@representat=
ive.com>; oig.hotline@ssa.gov <oig.hotline@ssa.gov>; info@olt.org <info@olt=
.org>; homeons@neobee.net <homeons@neobee.net>; homeopatia.roman@wp.pl <hom=
eopatia.roman@wp.pl>; info@homeopathy-greece.gr <info@homeopathy-greece.gr>=
; pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com <pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com>; accueil@sphq.org <ac=
cueil@sphq.org>; admin@homeopathyoz.org <admin@homeopathyoz.org>; aph.lxp@g=
mail.com <aph.lxp@gmail.com>; bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com <bg_homeopathy@yahoo.=
com>; dskh@homeopati.dk <dskh@homeopati.dk>; emimila@hotmail.com <emimila@h=
otmail.com>; homeopat.komora@seznam.cz <homeopat.komora@seznam.cz>; info@a-=
r-h.org <info@a-r-h.org>; info@aehu.es <info@aehu.es>; info@corporazioneome=
opati.org <info@corporazioneomeopati.org>; info@homeopathy-soh.org <info@ho=
meopathy-soh.org>; info@hvs.ch <info@hvs.ch>; info@ligahomeopatica.be <info=
@ligahomeopatica.be>; info@nvkh.nl <info@nvkh.nl>; info@sakh.se <info@sakh.=
se>; info@the-hma.org <info@the-hma.org>; ishom@eircom.net <ishom@eircom.ne=
t>; mcutajar@maltanet.net <mcutajar@maltanet.net>; nhl@c2i.net <nhl@c2i.net=
>; office@jphma.org <office@jphma.org>; office@vkhd.de <office@vkhd.de>; ra=
da@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk <rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk>; toimisto@hom=
eopaatit.fi <toimisto@homeopaatit.fi>; info@thaimiami.com <info@thaimiami.c=
om>; beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com <beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com>; head.=
customercare@citi.com <head.customercare@citi.com>; anrc@zsi.gov.in <anrc@z=
si.gov.in>; john@jck.com <john@jck.com>; nrc@zsi.gov.in <nrc@zsi.gov.in>; s=
rszsi@gmail.com <srszsi@gmail.com>; lorrett@fantasymakers.com <lorrett@fant=
asymakers.com>; info@jennervacationrentals.com <info@jennervacationrentals.=
com>; Contactcentre@sbi.co.in <Contactcentre@sbi.co.in>; Geneveive.jopanda@=
treasurer.ca.gov <Geneveive.jopanda@treasurer.ca.gov>; agaekarnataka@cag.go=
v <agaekarnataka@cag.gov>; dtocbe@nic.in <dtocbe@nic.in>; Care@jio.com <Car=
e@jio.com>; mfoster@fosteremploymentlaw.com <mfoster@fosteremploymentlaw.co=
m>; homeopatija@homeopatija.hr <homeopatija@homeopatija.hr>; gavin.newsom@l=
gt.ca.gov <gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov>; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in <director=
homoeo@kerala.gov.in>; admin-nzch@xtra.co.nz <admin-nzch@xtra.co.nz>; USPil=
atesAssociation@gmail.com <USPilatesAssociation@gmail.com>; info@pilates.or=
g.au <info@pilates.org.au>; dgp@tncctns.gov.in <dgp@tncctns.gov.in>; office=
@brietenbush.com <office@brietenbush.com>; delpol@vsnl.com <delpol@vsnl.com=
>; press@interpol.int <press@interpol.int>; rkumar.kpm@nic.in <rkumar.kpm@n=
ic.in>; mukundram2007@gmail.com <mukundram2007@gmail.com>; info@archive.org=
 <info@archive.org>; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz <adminnzch@xtra.co.nz>; info@qata=
rairways.qa <info@qatarairways.qa>; supremecourt@nic.in <supremecourt@nic.i=
n>; sasi@cdac.in <sasi@cdac.in>; brandy.dena@citi.com <brandy.dena@citi.com=
>; president@whitehouse.gov <president@whitehouse.gov>; info@yogatreesf.com=
 <info@yogatreesf.com>; johnjohnassociates@yahoo.co.in <johnjohnassociates@=
yahoo.co.in>; Mumbaif@state.gov <Mumbaif@state.gov>; nette_nongnuch@hotmail=
.com <nette_nongnuch@hotmail.com>; parveyt@adr.org <parveyt@adr.org>; ADRWe=
bSupport@adr.org <ADRWebSupport@adr.org>
Subject: Re: Hostility by Strangers : Case if HUman rights abuse US SS 6197=
26729

I am now writing this from inside old pulappatta house where my mother is b=
edridden. I gave her a chikkoo and some water. I have only 600rs and someon=
e in contact with my mother is or has stolen some money that I should be ha=
ving in addition harmed and injured my yoga body. The criminal Sridhar has =
gone to coimbatore and I suspect extorted cash from my mother. It's crimina=
l sridhar that has used a prameela sasidharan to extort 800000rs from me us=
ing extinct Sindhu issue in aug 2003 then they used a traffic police ismail=
 to harass me. This house and leelavilas should have been sold to help sind=
hu as these and inhabitants of leelavilas are the criminals that forced me =
to look after that woman in a purely platonic relation and now stealing all=
 my subscribers help as some kind of community wealth and employing many. I=
 demand payment to me enforced or pRameela sasidharan contacted to sell lee=
lavilas or this house and pay me back the 800000rs. I invested all my perso=
nal savings 100000 dollars to create my websites and it's still many clever=
 like sridhar exploiting me and has prevented me being reemployed in softwa=
re also in 2004. It's as if I have to work to employ cousins children and s=
upport them as karanavar.
I need a solution now
Pradeep kumar xplorer
________________________________
From: pradeep xplorer <pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2019 6:47:37 PM
To: ladyofmanynames@gmail.com <ladyofmanynames@gmail.com>; ardenfire@yahoo.=
com <ardenfire@yahoo.com>; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com <fmcreative@fantasy=
makers.com>; icann@icann.org <icann@icann.org>; scottm@wayin.com <scottm@wa=
yin.com>; info@agamayoga.com <info@agamayoga.com>; mail@ashtangayoga.info <=
mail@ashtangayoga.info>; amyji2@gmail.com <amyji2@gmail.com>; dwestergreen@=
koenigrubloff.com <dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com>; scotte.stafford@siap.pe=
ntagon.mil <scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil>; info@yogaworks.com <info@yo=
gaworks.com>; john.c.gerspach@citi.com <john.c.gerspach@citi.com>; larry.el=
lison@oracle.com <larry.ellison@oracle.com>; askvisausa@visa.com <askvisaus=
a@visa.com>; info@yogasource.com <info@yogasource.com>; larrypage@google.co=
m <larrypage@google.com>; rwalker@scscourt.org <rwalker@scscourt.org>; info=
@yogaalliance.org <info@yogaalliance.org>; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com <zoe.ti=
llman@buzzfeed.com>; amy@amytanathorn.com <amy@amytanathorn.com>; hr@harbin=
.org <hr@harbin.org>; dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov <dmvmediarelations@dmv.c=
a.gov>; sumbody@sumbody.com <sumbody@sumbody.com>; askdoj@usdoj.gov <askdoj=
@usdoj.gov>; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov <pao.eoir@usdoj.gov>; jack@twitter.com <jac=
k@twitter.com>; alerts@wellsfargo.com <alerts@wellsfargo.com>; Deptc@jcap.c=
om <Deptc@jcap.com>; ssa.comments@ssa.gov <ssa.comments@ssa.gov>; info@kino=
yoga.com <info@kinoyoga.com>; info@homeopathyhongkong.org <info@homeopathyh=
ongkong.org>; askvisa@visa.com <askvisa@visa.com>; ocharmenia@mail.com <och=
armenia@mail.com>; chcadmin@comcast.net <chcadmin@comcast.net>; nashinfo@ao=
l.com <nashinfo@aol.com>; abuse@chase.com <abuse@chase.com>; benefits.appli=
cation@ssa.gov <benefits.application@ssa.gov>; opportillo@globeacceptance.c=
om <opportillo@globeacceptance.com>; hilaryacer@gmail.com <hilaryacer@gmail=
.com>; indian_punk@outlook.com <indian_punk@outlook.com>; rajik.sharma@hdfc=
bank.com <rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com>; ehc@lighthouse-sf.org <ehc@lighthouse=
-sf.org>; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com <efcc.nigeria.org@representat=
ive.com>; oig.hotline@ssa.gov <oig.hotline@ssa.gov>; info@olt.org <info@olt=
.org>; homeons@neobee.net <homeons@neobee.net>; homeopatia.roman@wp.pl <hom=
eopatia.roman@wp.pl>; info@homeopathy-greece.gr <info@homeopathy-greece.gr>=
; pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com <pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com>; accueil@sphq.org <ac=
cueil@sphq.org>; admin@homeopathyoz.org <admin@homeopathyoz.org>; aph.lxp@g=
mail.com <aph.lxp@gmail.com>; bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com <bg_homeopathy@yahoo.=
com>; dskh@homeopati.dk <dskh@homeopati.dk>; emimila@hotmail.com <emimila@h=
otmail.com>; homeopat.komora@seznam.cz <homeopat.komora@seznam.cz>; info@a-=
r-h.org <info@a-r-h.org>; info@aehu.es <info@aehu.es>; info@corporazioneome=
opati.org <info@corporazioneomeopati.org>; info@homeopathy-soh.org <info@ho=
meopathy-soh.org>; info@hvs.ch <info@hvs.ch>; info@ligahomeopatica.be <info=
@ligahomeopatica.be>; info@nvkh.nl <info@nvkh.nl>; info@sakh.se <info@sakh.=
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g.au <info@pilates.org.au>; dgp@tncctns.gov.in <dgp@tncctns.gov.in>; office=
@brietenbush.com <office@brietenbush.com>; delpol@vsnl.com <delpol@vsnl.com=
>; press@interpol.int <press@interpol.int>; rkumar.kpm@nic.in <rkumar.kpm@n=
ic.in>; mukundram2007@gmail.com <mukundram2007@gmail.com>; info@archive.org=
 <info@archive.org>; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz <adminnzch@xtra.co.nz>; info@qata=
rairways.qa <info@qatarairways.qa>; supremecourt@nic.in <supremecourt@nic.i=
n>; sasi@cdac.in <sasi@cdac.in>; brandy.dena@citi.com <brandy.dena@citi.com=
>; president@whitehouse.gov <president@whitehouse.gov>; info@yogatreesf.com=
 <info@yogatreesf.com>; johnjohnassociates@yahoo.co.in <johnjohnassociates@=
yahoo.co.in>; Mumbaif@state.gov <Mumbaif@state.gov>; nette_nongnuch@hotmail=
.com <nette_nongnuch@hotmail.com>; parveyt@adr.org <parveyt@adr.org>; ADRWe=
bSupport@adr.org <ADRWebSupport@adr.org>
Subject: Re: Hostility by Strangers : Case if HUman rights abuse US SS 6197=
26729

I am typing this. Iam seriously saying this is my civil rights violated by =
many criminal pulappattas and many in marital relation with them since 1991=
 and earlier. VK janaki is a serious suspect to this situation. I have not =
completed this but regressing i am trillion times sure
sridhar is a criminal allowed to progress with criminal intent even to this=
 day. I have only 700 rs with me by many criminals using the sindhu issue t=
odate and calling me a disabled schizophrenic and stealing money.
Whoever Created the sindhu issue in 1991 still has the intention of killing=
 me. Please read below.

Pro Se 15 (Rev. 12/16) Complaint for Violation of Civil Rights (Non?Prisone=
r)

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
for the

      District of

      Division


)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
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)
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)

Case No.




(to be filled in by the Clerk=92s Office)
Plaintiff(s)
(Write the full name of each plaintiff who is filing this complaint. If
the names of all the plaintiffs cannot fit in the space above, please
write =93see attached=94 in the space and attach an additional page
with the full list of names.)
-v-




Jury Trial:  (check one)
0
?
Yes
0
No















Defendant(s)
(Write the full name of each defendant who is being sued.  If the
names of all the defendants cannot fit in the space above, please
write =93see attached=94 in the space and attach an additional page
with the full list of names.  Do not include addresses here.)



COMPLAINT FOR VIOLATION OF CIVIL RIGHTS
(Non?Prisoner Complaint)

NOTICE

Federal Rules of Civil Procedure 5.2 addresses the privacy and security con=
cerns resulting from public access to
electronic court files.  Under this rule, papers filed with the court shoul=
d not contain: an individual=92s full social
security number or full birth date; the full name of a person known to be a=
 minor; or a complete financial account
number.  A filing may include only: the last four digits of a social securi=
ty number; the year of an individual=92s birth;
a minor=92s initials; and the last four digits of a financial account numbe=
r.

Except as noted in this form, plaintiff need not send exhibits, affidavits,=
 grievance or witness statements, or any
other materials to the Clerk=92s Office with this complaint.

In order for your complaint to be filed, it must be accompanied by the fili=
ng fee or an application to proceed in
forma pauperis.



I. The Parties to This Complaint

A. The Plaintiff(s)

 Provide the information below for each plaintiff named in the complaint.  =
Attach additional pages if
 needed.
  Name

  Address









City

State

Zip Code
  County

  Telephone Number

  E-Mail Address


B. The Defendant(s)

 Provide the information below for each defendant named in the complaint, w=
hether the defendant is an
 individual, a government agency, an organization, or a corporation.  For a=
n individual defendant,
 include the person=92s job or title (if known) and check whether you are b=
ringing this complaint against
 them in their individual capacity or official capacity, or both.  Attach a=
dditional pages if needed.

 Defendant No. 1
  Name

  Job or Title (if known)

  Address









City

State

Zip Code
  County

  Telephone Number

  E-Mail Address (if known)



0
Individual capacity
0
Official capacity

 Defendant No. 2
  Name

  Job or Title (if known)

  Address








City

State

Zip Code
  County

  Telephone Number

  E-Mail Address (if known)



0
Individual capacity
0
Official capacity

 Defendant No. 3
  Name

  Job or Title (if known)

  Address









City

State

Zip Code
  County

  Telephone Number

  E-Mail Address (if known)



0
Individual capacity
0
Official capacity

 Defendant No. 4
  Name

  Job or Title (if known)

  Address








City

State

Zip Code
  County

  Telephone Number

  E-Mail Address (if known)



0
Individual capacity
0
Official capacity

II. Basis for Jurisdiction

Under 42 U.S.C. =A7 1983, you may sue state or local officials for the "dep=
rivation of any rights, privileges, or
immunities secured by the Constitution and [federal laws]."  Under Bivens v=
. Six Unknown Named Agents of
Federal Bureau of Narcotics, 403 U.S. 388 (1971), you may sue federal offic=
ials for the violation of certain
constitutional rights.

A. Are you bringing suit against (check all that apply):


0
Federal officials (a Bivens claim)

yes i suspect the indian and US travel authorities are partner to it. They =
did not let me be a world traveller
and prevented me getting money when i was in Thailand which is a totally di=
fferent economy than US or India
and where i could have restarted. They prevented me being in California wit=
h whose nature i was married to
and forced me to live in India where i have been repeatedly harmed and stil=
l exists with the fear of being harmed.


0
State or local officials (a =A7 1983 claim)

B. Section 1983 allows claims alleging the "deprivation of any rights, priv=
ileges, or immunities secured by
 the Constitution and [federal laws]."  42 U.S.C. =A7 1983.  If you are sui=
ng under section 1983, what
 federal constitutional or statutory right(s) do you claim is/are being vio=
lated by state or local officials?

yes the kerala state has violated my rights by not enforcing any payments b=
ut at the same time allowing an organisation to
operate and for repeatedly attacking and harming me and injuring my yoga bo=
dy in low class allopathic hospitals. As i doubt now
cousins husbands with criminal nature are partner to it. Despite repeatedly=
 protesting three cousins husbands has harmed
me Bharat Balan and Sridhar.



C. Plaintiffs suing under Bivens may only recover for the violation of cert=
ain constitutional rights.  If you
 are suing under Bivens, what constitutional right(s) do you claim is/are b=
eing violated by federal
 officials?

I have the right to enjpu and express my sexuality and flower sexually. I d=
esired a settled life in California like in
a place like petaluma where i can continue my yoga guidance.



D. Section 1983 allows defendants to be found liable only when they have ac=
ted "under color of any
 statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territor=
y or the District of Columbia."
 42 U.S.C. =A7 1983.  If you are suing under section 1983, explain how each=
 defendant acted under color
 of state or local law.  If you are suing under Bivens, explain how each de=
fendant acted under color of
 federal law.  Attach additional pages if needed.



III. Statement of Claim

State as briefly as possible the facts of your case.  Describe how each def=
endant was personally involved in the
alleged wrongful action, along with the dates and locations of all relevant=
 events.  You may wish to include
further details such as the names of other persons involved in the events g=
iving rise to your claims.  Do not cite
any cases or statutes.  If more than one claim is asserted, number each cla=
im and write a short and plain
statement of each claim in a separate paragraph.  Attach additional pages i=
f needed.

A. Where did the events giving rise to your claim(s) occur?
The events that giving rise to claims occur in four major countries
United States California
Thailand
Nepal
India



B. What date and approximate time did the events giving rise to your claim(=
s) occur?
The date range is from May 2001 to present..



C. What are the facts underlying your claim(s)?  (For example:  What happen=
ed to you?  Who did
what?
 Was anyone else involved?  Who else saw what happened?)

- Careless transfer by SUN Microsystems from USA California to Bangalore to=
 employ many in Bangalore and in USA.
Carelessness and criminal intent of SUN Microsystems in removing me from US=
 payroll and not putting me in India payroll
even though the contract of transfer stated that i would be paid in SUN Ind=
ia in Rupees as salary. I was in a relation
with AMy rainier starkey and she visited me in Bangalore and suspects behin=
d that are these SUN IEC employees
Guy Manchuk
Bridie Omaria
Hemant Sharma
Avinash agarwal
Sheriff kottapurath
Bernice shimabukaro
Preeti prayag
Namrata rao
Ravikumar GP

TO me SUN IEC was a wasteful activity that slumped the market cap of SUNW. =
I was paid some 135000 Indian rupees
as salary. I was then forced to open citibank India account. I did not have=
 a citibank account in USA. I was not
really financially savvy and never investigated which banks i should have o=
pened accounts while in California. There
was no suggestions by SUN Microsystems payroll.

- The indians made amy rainer starkey break up with me in APril 2001 after =
she visited me in Nepal. I was harassed unnecessarily
using a dead relation in which there was no sexual coitus by many criminals=
 like sridhar balan VK shankaravarma Vk Manikandan.
They have used it for more than a decade and its an extremely fraudulent cr=
iminal unethical group with no respect for me.
I was forced to look after a woman as a dependent who is very low energy sl=
ow and also very small for my size. I could never
have sexual coitus with her even if we both become gymnasts. My erest genit=
als penis lingam would always be bigger
than her excited dilated vagina. I was forced into this again by the crimin=
als in akathethara like sridhar , the party sindhus
foster parents to get rid of her from their lives. I grew up in poverty and=
 was forced to study in a boys only school sainik
school with repulsive restrooms where i had constipated stomach all the tim=
e and had to eat food from a low quality mess.
During college days i did not have money to be a boyfrend to a girlfrend en=
joy liberated or consensual surrogate sexuality
as is common among well of mature adults and such societies. My feelings we=
re manipulated and i was forced to look after
sindhu as a spouse by many criminals even now controlling and has harmed my=
 life.
After i broke up with amy VK shankaravarma and VK manikandan and a Sethu us=
ed sindhu to request for money. She wanted 700000 lakhs
or something. That means they acted as if that relation and case is alive w=
hen that was completely over in 1998.
Me and sindhu never enjoyed even one day of sexual coitus. When she matured=
 she agreed to separate but abusing her
the criminals in akathethara has harmed me and probably her as well. They j=
ust want free money and want me my mother
and probably sindhu dead.

- A yoga group showed up in rishikesh when i was with amy rainier starkey i=
n Dec 2000. It was like an international group
with many europeans Israelis Indians and Americans. The leader Narcis tarca=
u was shown as in a marital relation with
a short indian woman and that makes me suspect them. Me and amy attended th=
eir class for some days, i was excited and disturbed
as that man talked about sexual energetics and orgasm without ejaculation i=
n his lectures even though i was with amy only for two weeks.
Because of travel and partying high it made me want to go back to rishikesh=
. When i met with amy in nepal i begged her not to
break up with me as i was treated cruelly by the criminals like shankaravar=
ma and manikandan and there was a PSS group
that want me to pay some money to sindhu. That means they are clever that k=
ept that issue alive and prevented me from being
in a relation with another woman like amy rainier starkey as is common with=
 the sanfrancisco california tribe if those related
dont take vows for a life time.

I returned to California in Jan 2002 but i was put under a different group.=
 Lokanath das was my manager when i was
employed by SUN IEC. WHen i was in California Jerry Driscoll left his manag=
ement position. I was like a tech engineer
enjoying relation with amy not too much into company finances and my creati=
vity was comparatively less to drive companies
using words and speech but i was like pioneer of WWW browser usage and kept=
 up my interests in WWW user level evolution
by using WWW email services like hotmail.com, excite.com, yahoo.com etc.

I was harassed and put into performance review plan a planned action by man=
y to make me leave company. I used to
drop into yoga studios in the evening. I was given US permanent resident st=
atus aug 2003. I was given US permanent
resident card as well. A steve tried to fight with me as manager and a Mich=
ael McPherson put me in a performance
management plan the second time. I met with amy rainier starkey once again =
in JUne 21 2002. I enjoyed alternative sexual
relation with many eros woman but they did not have a live in relation with=
 me. I still sought a relation like amy
rainier starkey. Amy did not connect with me again. I remember the agamayog=
a group announcing the Yoga international
festival in 2002 and i wanted to travel and heal my back and when Michael M=
cPherson put me for second time in performance
management plan i left. I remember sitting a room jetlagged with a Paul san=
gster Valerie bubb and Darren moffat.
The SUN HR send me email of allowing to leave company for three months comp=
ensation and i took that option to exit and
explore, It was careless for sun management to do that.

A rhonda rose hill yogascience@yahoo.com solicited my attention. I remember=
 meeting with her for a non sexual date
in a sanfrancisco hostel. She took me to some Himalayan Tradition function.=
 I am suspect that woman and her intention
now. She rejected a carefree relation request and then i explored who they =
are and i remembered signing up for
a retreat with Usharbud arya, George feurstein etc in Institue of neotic sc=
iences petaluma. I suspect again there
was money that should have been given to me when i left SUN as a permanent =
resident by citigroup that was not given to
me. I entered India and attended a meditation conference in Rishikesh in bi=
ndu.org. I was travel sick. Again while doing
all these i was looking for another loving relation but all these were like=
 groups with disciples and woman was not available
for relating. They were interested in making me into a life time devotee. I=
 found this same with agamayoga.com and bindu.org.
I stayed in gayathri akathethara in between travels and in Feb 2003 i went =
for a ten day silent retreat in bidnu.org.
The criminal manipulators bharat sridhar shankaravarma rajkumar made it imp=
ossible for me to be trouble free.
 They harased me using a traffic police ismail and harassed me using sindhu=
 issue. I bought a royal enfield and
got a indian drivers license as it was common for foreign travellers to rid=
e enfield. I remember two woman a
nastasja gloekner and a natasha gutshtein who showed some interest in me bu=
t i suspect again prevented to become frends
with me by the master criminals with the master plan. Even after living in =
a marital like relation with amy and having
enjoyed sexual coitus the criminals kept the sindhu issue alive and extorte=
d 800000rs from me after a trip to california.
I suspect this was extortion not by sindhu but by balan and sridhar with pa=
rtnership with VK shankaravarma and VIK rajkumar
and VK manikandan to destroy my life and my life now is really destroyed. I=
nstead of arranging another woman they
kept on harassing using sindhu issue, i have stated very clearly to muthusw=
amy that i could never have sexual coitus
with sindhu. They exploited a compassionate energy i had and extorted 80000=
0rs from me. And the criminals prevented
sindhu from marrying anyone using me. I was forcefully separated from sindh=
u by criminals sridhar and a sethu. They objected
to me keeping a frendly relation with her as i had to look after her like a=
 daughter with no joy of marriage.She was
very low in energy and all she can do was to cook something for me and sit =
by my side in a car i drive and network
with some indians in Bayarea. I really was very unhealthy because of not be=
ing able to have sexual coitus.We went through
a summary dissolution in California and she does not have anyone in her lif=
e. I was informed by my mother that she recieved
some funds from her foster parents side and i dont have to give anything. B=
ut i observed they had abandoned leelavilas.
WHo helped them not stay in leelavilas is a suspicion to me. I was forced t=
o look after her by criminals sridhar VK janaky
and a KP Gopalamenon nick named bhasi. I think Bhasi wanted to marry VK jan=
aki or something like that. Anyway
after a return to Bombay where i was interviewed and offered a position in =
NCST i was informed sindhu is being prevented to
go to college and this was manipulation by cruel criminals like sridhar and=
 balan. I was sexually immature and had a platonic
relation with that woman sindhu who also was not sexual or athletic .. I ha=
d really sexual curshes for other woman in trivandrum
but i did not have a property or money to express it. I was immature and un=
healthy sexually. I was living with what my mother
can give me to eat in cheap restaurents and stay in cheap lodges as a engin=
eering college student.

Even before i joined NCST the makkal house and those like sridhar and VK pa=
dmanabha varma manipulated me into taking care of
her .. and the criminals did not let sindhu just stay with me but criminals=
 like sridhar demanded i register the marriage by some
written contract. It was not my plan. All i wanted was to let that woman co=
mplete college and for that i had to take care of
her and its criminal intent of many even now continuing. criminal intent of=
 VKI janaki not to inherit leelavilas to sindhu but
her son. I went to their house because they used to enter our houses as wel=
l. Criminal sridhar and balan was very intrusive and used
to come into gayathri. It is criminals like sridhar that prevented sindhu s=
taying with my mother in gayathri without marriage registration
and now that criminal has half killed me and my mother and it cannot be for=
given. I would have enjoyed sexual surrogavcy in
mumbai and i would have not pursued sindhu and disconnected. I was forced t=
o stay in bangalore because of bhasi in another
pulappattas house KP Viswas. He is another suspect to this situation as rel=
ated to sindhus real mother. sindhu was adopted
by VK janaky from her real mother.



IV. Injuries

If you sustained injuries related to the events alleged above, describe you=
r injuries and state what medical
treatment, if any, you required and did or did not receive.



V. Relief

State briefly what you want the court to do for you. Make no legal argument=
s. Do not cite any cases or statutes.
If requesting money damages, include the amounts of any actual damages and/=
or punitive damages claimed for
the acts alleged.  Explain the basis for these claims.



VI. Certification and Closing

Under Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 11, by signing below, I certify to th=
e best of my knowledge, information,
and belief that this complaint: (1) is not being presented for an improper =
purpose, such as to harass, cause
unnecessary delay, or needlessly increase the cost of litigation; (2) is su=
pported by existing law or by a
nonfrivolous argument for extending, modifying, or reversing existing law; =
(3) the factual contentions have
evidentiary support or, if specifically so identified, will likely have evi=
dentiary support after a reasonable
opportunity for further investigation or discovery; and (4) the complaint o=
therwise complies with the
requirements of Rule 11.


A. For Parties Without an Attorney

 I agree to provide the Clerk=92s Office with any changes to my address whe=
re case?related papers may
be
 served.  I understand that my failure to keep a current address on file wi=
th the Clerk=92s Office may result
 in the dismissal of my case.

 Date of signing:



 Signature of Plaintiff


 Printed Name of Plaintiff



B. For Attorneys

 Date of signing:



 Signature of Attorney


 Printed Name of Attorney


 Bar Number


 Name of Law Firm


 Address










City

State

Zip Code

 Telephone Number


 E-mail Address






Page   of  6

Page   of  6




________________________________
From: pradeep xplorer <pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2019 1:07 PM
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@brietenbush.com <office@brietenbush.com>; delpol@vsnl.com <delpol@vsnl.com=
>; press@interpol.int <press@interpol.int>; rkumar.kpm@nic.in <rkumar.kpm@n=
ic.in>; mukundram2007@gmail.com <mukundram2007@gmail.com>; info@archive.org=
 <info@archive.org>; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz <adminnzch@xtra.co.nz>; info@qata=
rairways.qa <info@qatarairways.qa>; supremecourt@nic.in <supremecourt@nic.i=
n>; sasi@cdac.in <sasi@cdac.in>; brandy.dena@citi.com <brandy.dena@citi.com=
>; president@whitehouse.gov <president@whitehouse.gov>; info@yogatreesf.com=
 <info@yogatreesf.com>; johnjohnassociates@yahoo.co.in <johnjohnassociates@=
yahoo.co.in>; Mumbaif@state.gov <Mumbaif@state.gov>
Subject: Fw: Hostility by Strangers : Case if HUman rights abuse US SS 6197=
26729

This is an email i send in 2012.. There was a type of a missing not that i =
added.. But overall the email describes i dont want to stay in chepilmuri a=
nd visalakshy is being held hostage.Now its seven years and visalakshy is i=
njured.. i object to this crime continuing..

________________________________
From: pradeep xplorer <pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 9:58 AM
To: ffetf@usdoj.gov <ffetf@usdoj.gov>; askdoj@usdoj.gov <askdoj@usdoj.gov>;=
 collinsj@adr.org <collinsj@adr.org>; julie.auvet@facebook.com <julie.auvet=
@facebook.com>; amyji2@gmail.com <amyji2@gmail.com>; legal@bluehost.com <le=
gal@bluehost.com>; le.pygmee@facebook.com <le.pygmee@facebook.com>; valerie=
b@yogaworks.com <valerieb@yogaworks.com>; adam@yogaworks.com <adam@yogawork=
s.com>; anjana.duff@facebook.com <anjana.duff@facebook.com>; saraavantstove=
r@facebook.com <saraavantstover@facebook.com>; adgpcrimes@keralapolice.gov.=
in <adgpcrimes@keralapolice.gov.in>; hobacblr@cbi.gov.in <hobacblr@cbi.gov.=
in>; nette_nongnuch@hotmail.com <nette_nongnuch@hotmail.com>; ssa.comments@=
ssa.gov <ssa.comments@ssa.gov>
Cc: parveyt@adr.org <parveyt@adr.org>
Subject: Hostility by Strangers : Case if HUman rights abuse US SS 61972672=
9

Helo,
The evening before i was uncomfortable staying in the chepilamuri premises =
into
which visalakshy has shifted last year and where i dont need to stay for an=
y reason.
I do not have cash or income. I am being exploited by strangers just becaus=
e they have
a genetic relation.

I have only 1000Rs left. Visalakshy did not help me with 10000Rs but 5000Rs=
.
SHe is avoiding cooperating with me to sell some old land properties that c=
ould
help me with some cash. May be she is right. The case has to be settled wit=
hout
those properties being sold as i do not own them.

I reported Hostility of Kannan, presumably related to this sick shylajas da=
ughter who
want to look after visalakshy. I dont want shylaja staying in that premise =
to which
visalakshy has shifted with some of my belongings. I disposed all of it. Th=
eres Premkumars
(late fathers dining table from Calcutta days 1970-1975) an old four legged=
 small plywood table
which these are using to eat their food. I suspect these criminals have shi=
fted to some newer
house exploiting me and now appears here. Theres no need for shylaja or her=
 relatives to stay
in that premise. The rent if that property is not owned by visalakshy is so=
me thing around 3000Rs
60 US dollars. Visalakshy can claim that money after Sale of LeelaVilas.

I went to talk to neighbour Prabhas house to his mother or his partners mot=
her and they
dont know where visalakshy is. I am again forced to depend on Visalakshy. W=
Hile talking
this sicko criminal stranger Kannan came and started verballu harassing me =
in a car with
another person. He is saying i would get beaten up as if i have to physical=
ly fight with him.
Yesterday i had dinner in hotel Indraprastha. This hotel has a coffee house=
 outside where
i sometimes eat. Yesterday evening there was a big crowd preventing from si=
tting on
any table. SO i went in and ate a kashmiri pulao and that was not up to my =
statndards
and did not feel healthy, stomach was upset and my legs were twitching in m=
orning
and i suspect it had been poisoned.  Kannan verbally provoked me and i told=
 him
that he is shameless to use our old dining table. Visalakshy is not present=
. I needed
500000Rs given to me as relief. They dont have. SO i need some more cash 50=
00Rs to
10000Rs to go to bangalore and withdraw whatever PF cash is left in WIpro. =
But these
activities could be done after my case is settled with SUN/ORACLE and for m=
isappropriated
Options. Visalakshy or her relatives cannot misappropriate my wealth as a T=
RUST.
I would not stay in palakkad or in India even a day if this case is settled=
. Please warn
this Kannan not to speak with me. I am not interested in relation to shylaj=
a, or her so called
family. I am being forced to stay in their premises because of actions of U=
S CBP and they
partners to this financial crime.

I am not able to pay for the site because of these kind of negative exploit=
ers.

I am not in the company of persons i would like to be with. I would not eve=
n like
seeing these criminals pictures or photos. They are hostile characters
exploiting me. I was made nervous by the food i ate in Indraprastha hotel.
I am not able to even rest or relax. WHen would this case end?. This cannot=
 be dragged
so some police officers can be employed. These matters could have been sett=
led in 2004
in United States. Please advice me what to do now?. I do not want to see pe=
rsons
not in my life and who i do not like to relate to. For this my money should=
 be with me
in a direct banking relation.These kind of persons prevented me from making=
 self
exploration course and journals a success.Visalakshy cannot be held hostage=
 by Balan/Prabha or
Kannan. I want the criminals in Vshalom Care and Cure the low caste facilil=
ty where i was
attacked and detained by the four rogues in palakkad prosecuted and punishe=
d now.
Otherwise it would give encouragement to persons like Kannan to engage me i=
n Physical
fights.

Pradeep Kumar Xplorer

--_000_MAXPR01MB23048E4F7DDB26F956A610FFB7C30MAXPR01MB2304INDP_
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<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" st=
yle=3D"font-size:11pt" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> pradeep xplorer &lt;p=
radeepan88@hotmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 24, 2019 10:41:00 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> ladyofmanynames@gmail.com &lt;ladyofmanynames@gmail.com&gt;; ard=
enfire@yahoo.com &lt;ardenfire@yahoo.com&gt;; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com =
&lt;fmcreative@fantasymakers.com&gt;; icann@icann.org &lt;icann@icann.org&g=
t;; scottm@wayin.com &lt;scottm@wayin.com&gt;; info@agamayoga.com
 &lt;info@agamayoga.com&gt;; mail@ashtangayoga.info &lt;mail@ashtangayoga.i=
nfo&gt;; amyji2@gmail.com &lt;amyji2@gmail.com&gt;; dwestergreen@koenigrubl=
off.com &lt;dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com&gt;; scotte.stafford@siap.pentag=
on.mil &lt;scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil&gt;; info@yogaworks.com
 &lt;info@yogaworks.com&gt;; john.c.gerspach@citi.com &lt;john.c.gerspach@c=
iti.com&gt;; larry.ellison@oracle.com &lt;larry.ellison@oracle.com&gt;; ask=
visausa@visa.com &lt;askvisausa@visa.com&gt;; info@yogasource.com &lt;info@=
yogasource.com&gt;; larrypage@google.com &lt;larrypage@google.com&gt;;
 rwalker@scscourt.org &lt;rwalker@scscourt.org&gt;; info@yogaalliance.org &=
lt;info@yogaalliance.org&gt;; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com &lt;zoe.tillman@buzz=
feed.com&gt;; amy@amytanathorn.com &lt;amy@amytanathorn.com&gt;; hr@harbin.=
org &lt;hr@harbin.org&gt;; dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov &lt;dmvmediarelatio=
ns@dmv.ca.gov&gt;;
 sumbody@sumbody.com &lt;sumbody@sumbody.com&gt;; askdoj@usdoj.gov &lt;askd=
oj@usdoj.gov&gt;; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov &lt;pao.eoir@usdoj.gov&gt;; jack@twitt=
er.com &lt;jack@twitter.com&gt;; alerts@wellsfargo.com &lt;alerts@wellsfarg=
o.com&gt;; Deptc@jcap.com &lt;Deptc@jcap.com&gt;; ssa.comments@ssa.gov
 &lt;ssa.comments@ssa.gov&gt;; info@kinoyoga.com &lt;info@kinoyoga.com&gt;;=
 info@homeopathyhongkong.org &lt;info@homeopathyhongkong.org&gt;; askvisa@v=
isa.com &lt;askvisa@visa.com&gt;; ocharmenia@mail.com &lt;ocharmenia@mail.c=
om&gt;; chcadmin@comcast.net &lt;chcadmin@comcast.net&gt;; nashinfo@aol.com
 &lt;nashinfo@aol.com&gt;; abuse@chase.com &lt;abuse@chase.com&gt;; benefit=
s.application@ssa.gov &lt;benefits.application@ssa.gov&gt;; opportillo@glob=
eacceptance.com &lt;opportillo@globeacceptance.com&gt;; hilaryacer@gmail.co=
m &lt;hilaryacer@gmail.com&gt;; indian_punk@outlook.com &lt;indian_punk@out=
look.com&gt;;
 rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com &lt;rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com&gt;; ehc@lighthous=
e-sf.org &lt;ehc@lighthouse-sf.org&gt;; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com=
 &lt;efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com&gt;; oig.hotline@ssa.gov &lt;oig.h=
otline@ssa.gov&gt;; info@olt.org &lt;info@olt.org&gt;; homeons@neobee.net
 &lt;homeons@neobee.net&gt;; homeopatia.roman@wp.pl &lt;homeopatia.roman@wp=
.pl&gt;; info@homeopathy-greece.gr &lt;info@homeopathy-greece.gr&gt;; pnohd=
fcbank@hdfcbank.com &lt;pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com&gt;; accueil@sphq.org &lt;=
accueil@sphq.org&gt;; admin@homeopathyoz.org &lt;admin@homeopathyoz.org&gt;=
;
 aph.lxp@gmail.com &lt;aph.lxp@gmail.com&gt;; bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com &lt;b=
g_homeopathy@yahoo.com&gt;; dskh@homeopati.dk &lt;dskh@homeopati.dk&gt;; em=
imila@hotmail.com &lt;emimila@hotmail.com&gt;; homeopat.komora@seznam.cz &l=
t;homeopat.komora@seznam.cz&gt;; info@a-r-h.org &lt;info@a-r-h.org&gt;;
 info@aehu.es &lt;info@aehu.es&gt;; info@corporazioneomeopati.org &lt;info@=
corporazioneomeopati.org&gt;; info@homeopathy-soh.org &lt;info@homeopathy-s=
oh.org&gt;; info@hvs.ch &lt;info@hvs.ch&gt;; info@ligahomeopatica.be &lt;in=
fo@ligahomeopatica.be&gt;; info@nvkh.nl &lt;info@nvkh.nl&gt;; info@sakh.se
 &lt;info@sakh.se&gt;; info@the-hma.org &lt;info@the-hma.org&gt;; ishom@eir=
com.net &lt;ishom@eircom.net&gt;; mcutajar@maltanet.net &lt;mcutajar@maltan=
et.net&gt;; nhl@c2i.net &lt;nhl@c2i.net&gt;; office@jphma.org &lt;office@jp=
hma.org&gt;; office@vkhd.de &lt;office@vkhd.de&gt;; rada@homeopaticka-asoci=
acia.sk
 &lt;rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk&gt;; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi &lt;toimis=
to@homeopaatit.fi&gt;; info@thaimiami.com &lt;info@thaimiami.com&gt;; beyou=
tifullivingyoga@gmail.com &lt;beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com&gt;; head.cust=
omercare@citi.com &lt;head.customercare@citi.com&gt;; anrc@zsi.gov.in
 &lt;anrc@zsi.gov.in&gt;; john@jck.com &lt;john@jck.com&gt;; nrc@zsi.gov.in=
 &lt;nrc@zsi.gov.in&gt;; srszsi@gmail.com &lt;srszsi@gmail.com&gt;; lorrett=
@fantasymakers.com &lt;lorrett@fantasymakers.com&gt;; info@jennervacationre=
ntals.com &lt;info@jennervacationrentals.com&gt;; Contactcentre@sbi.co.in
 &lt;Contactcentre@sbi.co.in&gt;; Geneveive.jopanda@treasurer.ca.gov &lt;Ge=
neveive.jopanda@treasurer.ca.gov&gt;; agaekarnataka@cag.gov &lt;agaekarnata=
ka@cag.gov&gt;; dtocbe@nic.in &lt;dtocbe@nic.in&gt;; Care@jio.com &lt;Care@=
jio.com&gt;; mfoster@fosteremploymentlaw.com &lt;mfoster@fosteremploymentla=
w.com&gt;;
 homeopatija@homeopatija.hr &lt;homeopatija@homeopatija.hr&gt;; gavin.newso=
m@lgt.ca.gov &lt;gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov&gt;; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in =
&lt;directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in&gt;; admin-nzch@xtra.co.nz &lt;admin-nzch@=
xtra.co.nz&gt;; USPilatesAssociation@gmail.com &lt;USPilatesAssociation@gma=
il.com&gt;;
 info@pilates.org.au &lt;info@pilates.org.au&gt;; dgp@tncctns.gov.in &lt;dg=
p@tncctns.gov.in&gt;; office@brietenbush.com &lt;office@brietenbush.com&gt;=
; delpol@vsnl.com &lt;delpol@vsnl.com&gt;; press@interpol.int &lt;press@int=
erpol.int&gt;; rkumar.kpm@nic.in &lt;rkumar.kpm@nic.in&gt;; mukundram2007@g=
mail.com
 &lt;mukundram2007@gmail.com&gt;; info@archive.org &lt;info@archive.org&gt;=
; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz &lt;adminnzch@xtra.co.nz&gt;; info@qatarairways.qa &=
lt;info@qatarairways.qa&gt;; supremecourt@nic.in &lt;supremecourt@nic.in&gt=
;; sasi@cdac.in &lt;sasi@cdac.in&gt;; brandy.dena@citi.com &lt;brandy.dena@=
citi.com&gt;;
 president@whitehouse.gov &lt;president@whitehouse.gov&gt;; info@yogatreesf=
.com &lt;info@yogatreesf.com&gt;; johnjohnassociates@yahoo.co.in &lt;johnjo=
hnassociates@yahoo.co.in&gt;; Mumbaif@state.gov &lt;Mumbaif@state.gov&gt;; =
nette_nongnuch@hotmail.com &lt;nette_nongnuch@hotmail.com&gt;;
 parveyt@adr.org &lt;parveyt@adr.org&gt;; ADRWebSupport@adr.org &lt;ADRWebS=
upport@adr.org&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Hostility by Strangers : Case if HUman rights abuse US =
SS 619726729</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div>I am now writing this from inside old pulappatta house where my mother=
 is bedridden. I gave her a chikkoo and some water. I have only 600rs and s=
omeone in contact with my mother is or has stolen some money that I should =
be having in addition harmed and
 injured my yoga body. The criminal Sridhar has gone to coimbatore and I su=
spect extorted cash from my mother. It's criminal sridhar that has used a p=
rameela sasidharan to extort 800000rs from me using extinct Sindhu issue in=
 aug 2003 then they used a traffic
 police ismail to harass me. This house and leelavilas should have been sol=
d to help sindhu as these and inhabitants of leelavilas are the criminals t=
hat forced me to look after that woman in a purely platonic relation and no=
w stealing all my subscribers help
 as some kind of community wealth and employing many. I demand payment to m=
e enforced or pRameela sasidharan contacted to sell leelavilas or this hous=
e and pay me back the 800000rs. I invested all my personal savings 100000 d=
ollars to create my websites and
 it's still many clever like sridhar exploiting me and has prevented me bei=
ng reemployed in software also in 2004. It's as if I have to work to employ=
 cousins children and support them as karanavar.
<br>
I need a solution now<br>
Pradeep kumar xplorer
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" =
color=3D"#000000" style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> pradeep xplorer &lt=
;pradeepan88@hotmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 23, 2019 6:47:37 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> ladyofmanynames@gmail.com &lt;ladyofmanynames@gmail.com&gt;; ard=
enfire@yahoo.com &lt;ardenfire@yahoo.com&gt;; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com =
&lt;fmcreative@fantasymakers.com&gt;; icann@icann.org &lt;icann@icann.org&g=
t;; scottm@wayin.com &lt;scottm@wayin.com&gt;; info@agamayoga.com
 &lt;info@agamayoga.com&gt;; mail@ashtangayoga.info &lt;mail@ashtangayoga.i=
nfo&gt;; amyji2@gmail.com &lt;amyji2@gmail.com&gt;; dwestergreen@koenigrubl=
off.com &lt;dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com&gt;; scotte.stafford@siap.pentag=
on.mil &lt;scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil&gt;; info@yogaworks.com
 &lt;info@yogaworks.com&gt;; john.c.gerspach@citi.com &lt;john.c.gerspach@c=
iti.com&gt;; larry.ellison@oracle.com &lt;larry.ellison@oracle.com&gt;; ask=
visausa@visa.com &lt;askvisausa@visa.com&gt;; info@yogasource.com &lt;info@=
yogasource.com&gt;; larrypage@google.com &lt;larrypage@google.com&gt;;
 rwalker@scscourt.org &lt;rwalker@scscourt.org&gt;; info@yogaalliance.org &=
lt;info@yogaalliance.org&gt;; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com &lt;zoe.tillman@buzz=
feed.com&gt;; amy@amytanathorn.com &lt;amy@amytanathorn.com&gt;; hr@harbin.=
org &lt;hr@harbin.org&gt;; dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov &lt;dmvmediarelatio=
ns@dmv.ca.gov&gt;;
 sumbody@sumbody.com &lt;sumbody@sumbody.com&gt;; askdoj@usdoj.gov &lt;askd=
oj@usdoj.gov&gt;; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov &lt;pao.eoir@usdoj.gov&gt;; jack@twitt=
er.com &lt;jack@twitter.com&gt;; alerts@wellsfargo.com &lt;alerts@wellsfarg=
o.com&gt;; Deptc@jcap.com &lt;Deptc@jcap.com&gt;; ssa.comments@ssa.gov
 &lt;ssa.comments@ssa.gov&gt;; info@kinoyoga.com &lt;info@kinoyoga.com&gt;;=
 info@homeopathyhongkong.org &lt;info@homeopathyhongkong.org&gt;; askvisa@v=
isa.com &lt;askvisa@visa.com&gt;; ocharmenia@mail.com &lt;ocharmenia@mail.c=
om&gt;; chcadmin@comcast.net &lt;chcadmin@comcast.net&gt;; nashinfo@aol.com
 &lt;nashinfo@aol.com&gt;; abuse@chase.com &lt;abuse@chase.com&gt;; benefit=
s.application@ssa.gov &lt;benefits.application@ssa.gov&gt;; opportillo@glob=
eacceptance.com &lt;opportillo@globeacceptance.com&gt;; hilaryacer@gmail.co=
m &lt;hilaryacer@gmail.com&gt;; indian_punk@outlook.com &lt;indian_punk@out=
look.com&gt;;
 rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com &lt;rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com&gt;; ehc@lighthous=
e-sf.org &lt;ehc@lighthouse-sf.org&gt;; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com=
 &lt;efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com&gt;; oig.hotline@ssa.gov &lt;oig.h=
otline@ssa.gov&gt;; info@olt.org &lt;info@olt.org&gt;; homeons@neobee.net
 &lt;homeons@neobee.net&gt;; homeopatia.roman@wp.pl &lt;homeopatia.roman@wp=
.pl&gt;; info@homeopathy-greece.gr &lt;info@homeopathy-greece.gr&gt;; pnohd=
fcbank@hdfcbank.com &lt;pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com&gt;; accueil@sphq.org &lt;=
accueil@sphq.org&gt;; admin@homeopathyoz.org &lt;admin@homeopathyoz.org&gt;=
;
 aph.lxp@gmail.com &lt;aph.lxp@gmail.com&gt;; bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com &lt;b=
g_homeopathy@yahoo.com&gt;; dskh@homeopati.dk &lt;dskh@homeopati.dk&gt;; em=
imila@hotmail.com &lt;emimila@hotmail.com&gt;; homeopat.komora@seznam.cz &l=
t;homeopat.komora@seznam.cz&gt;; info@a-r-h.org &lt;info@a-r-h.org&gt;;
 info@aehu.es &lt;info@aehu.es&gt;; info@corporazioneomeopati.org &lt;info@=
corporazioneomeopati.org&gt;; info@homeopathy-soh.org &lt;info@homeopathy-s=
oh.org&gt;; info@hvs.ch &lt;info@hvs.ch&gt;; info@ligahomeopatica.be &lt;in=
fo@ligahomeopatica.be&gt;; info@nvkh.nl &lt;info@nvkh.nl&gt;; info@sakh.se
 &lt;info@sakh.se&gt;; info@the-hma.org &lt;info@the-hma.org&gt;; ishom@eir=
com.net &lt;ishom@eircom.net&gt;; mcutajar@maltanet.net &lt;mcutajar@maltan=
et.net&gt;; nhl@c2i.net &lt;nhl@c2i.net&gt;; office@jphma.org &lt;office@jp=
hma.org&gt;; office@vkhd.de &lt;office@vkhd.de&gt;; rada@homeopaticka-asoci=
acia.sk
 &lt;rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk&gt;; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi &lt;toimis=
to@homeopaatit.fi&gt;; info@thaimiami.com &lt;info@thaimiami.com&gt;; beyou=
tifullivingyoga@gmail.com &lt;beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com&gt;; head.cust=
omercare@citi.com &lt;head.customercare@citi.com&gt;; anrc@zsi.gov.in
 &lt;anrc@zsi.gov.in&gt;; john@jck.com &lt;john@jck.com&gt;; nrc@zsi.gov.in=
 &lt;nrc@zsi.gov.in&gt;; srszsi@gmail.com &lt;srszsi@gmail.com&gt;; lorrett=
@fantasymakers.com &lt;lorrett@fantasymakers.com&gt;; info@jennervacationre=
ntals.com &lt;info@jennervacationrentals.com&gt;; Contactcentre@sbi.co.in
 &lt;Contactcentre@sbi.co.in&gt;; Geneveive.jopanda@treasurer.ca.gov &lt;Ge=
neveive.jopanda@treasurer.ca.gov&gt;; agaekarnataka@cag.gov &lt;agaekarnata=
ka@cag.gov&gt;; dtocbe@nic.in &lt;dtocbe@nic.in&gt;; Care@jio.com &lt;Care@=
jio.com&gt;; mfoster@fosteremploymentlaw.com &lt;mfoster@fosteremploymentla=
w.com&gt;;
 homeopatija@homeopatija.hr &lt;homeopatija@homeopatija.hr&gt;; gavin.newso=
m@lgt.ca.gov &lt;gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov&gt;; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in =
&lt;directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in&gt;; admin-nzch@xtra.co.nz &lt;admin-nzch@=
xtra.co.nz&gt;; USPilatesAssociation@gmail.com &lt;USPilatesAssociation@gma=
il.com&gt;;
 info@pilates.org.au &lt;info@pilates.org.au&gt;; dgp@tncctns.gov.in &lt;dg=
p@tncctns.gov.in&gt;; office@brietenbush.com &lt;office@brietenbush.com&gt;=
; delpol@vsnl.com &lt;delpol@vsnl.com&gt;; press@interpol.int &lt;press@int=
erpol.int&gt;; rkumar.kpm@nic.in &lt;rkumar.kpm@nic.in&gt;; mukundram2007@g=
mail.com
 &lt;mukundram2007@gmail.com&gt;; info@archive.org &lt;info@archive.org&gt;=
; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz &lt;adminnzch@xtra.co.nz&gt;; info@qatarairways.qa &=
lt;info@qatarairways.qa&gt;; supremecourt@nic.in &lt;supremecourt@nic.in&gt=
;; sasi@cdac.in &lt;sasi@cdac.in&gt;; brandy.dena@citi.com &lt;brandy.dena@=
citi.com&gt;;
 president@whitehouse.gov &lt;president@whitehouse.gov&gt;; info@yogatreesf=
.com &lt;info@yogatreesf.com&gt;; johnjohnassociates@yahoo.co.in &lt;johnjo=
hnassociates@yahoo.co.in&gt;; Mumbaif@state.gov &lt;Mumbaif@state.gov&gt;; =
nette_nongnuch@hotmail.com &lt;nette_nongnuch@hotmail.com&gt;;
 parveyt@adr.org &lt;parveyt@adr.org&gt;; ADRWebSupport@adr.org &lt;ADRWebS=
upport@adr.org&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Hostility by Strangers : Case if HUman rights abuse US =
SS 619726729</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)">
I am typing this. Iam seriously saying this is my civil rights violated by =
many criminal pulappattas and many in marital relation with them since 1991=
 and earlier. VK janaki is a serious suspect to this situation. I have not =
completed this but regressing i
 am trillion times sure</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)">
sridhar is a criminal allowed to progress with criminal intent even to this=
 day. I have only 700 rs with me by many criminals using the sindhu issue t=
odate and calling me a disabled schizophrenic and stealing money.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)">
Whoever Created the sindhu issue in 1991 still has the intention of killing=
 me. Please read below.
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)">
<span>Pro Se 15 (Rev. 12/16) Complaint for Violation of Civil Rights (Non?P=
risoner)<br>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT<br>
</div>
<div>for the<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; District of &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Division<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div>)<br>
</div>
<div>)<br>
</div>
<div>)<br>
</div>
<div>)<br>
</div>
<div>)<br>
</div>
<div>)<br>
</div>
<div>)<br>
</div>
<div>)<br>
</div>
<div>)<br>
</div>
<div>)<br>
</div>
<div>)<br>
</div>
<div>)<br>
</div>
<div>)<br>
</div>
<div>)<br>
</div>
<div>)<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Case No.<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>(to be filled in by the Clerk=92s Office)<br>
</div>
<div>Plaintiff(s)<br>
</div>
<div>(Write the full name of each plaintiff who is filing this complaint. I=
f <br>
</div>
<div>the names of all the plaintiffs cannot fit in the space above, please =
<br>
</div>
<div>write =93see attached=94 in the space and attach an additional page <b=
r>
</div>
<div>with the full list of names.)<br>
</div>
<div>-v-<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Jury Trial: &nbsp;(check one)<br>
</div>
<div>0<br>
</div>
<div>?<br>
</div>
<div>Yes<br>
</div>
<div>0<br>
</div>
<div>No<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Defendant(s)<br>
</div>
<div>(Write the full name of each defendant who is being sued. &nbsp;If the=
 <br>
</div>
<div>names of all the defendants cannot fit in the space above, please <br>
</div>
<div>write =93see attached=94 in the space and attach an additional page <b=
r>
</div>
<div>with the full list of names. &nbsp;Do not include addresses here.) <br=
>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>COMPLAINT FOR VIOLATION OF CIVIL RIGHTS<br>
</div>
<div>(Non?Prisoner Complaint)<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>NOTICE<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Federal Rules of Civil Procedure 5.2 addresses the privacy and securit=
y concerns resulting from public access to
<br>
</div>
<div>electronic court files. &nbsp;Under this rule, papers filed with the c=
ourt should not contain: an individual=92s full social
<br>
</div>
<div>security number or full birth date; the full name of a person known to=
 be a minor; or a complete financial account
<br>
</div>
<div>number. &nbsp;A filing may include only: the last four digits of a soc=
ial security number; the year of an individual=92s birth;
<br>
</div>
<div>a minor=92s initials; and the last four digits of a financial account =
number.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Except as noted in this form, plaintiff need not send exhibits, affida=
vits, grievance or witness statements, or any
<br>
</div>
<div>other materials to the Clerk=92s Office with this complaint.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In order for your complaint to be filed, it must be accompanied by the=
 filing fee or an application to proceed in
<br>
</div>
<div>forma pauperis.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I. The Parties to This Complaint<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>A. The Plaintiff(s)<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;Provide the information below for each plaintiff named in the co=
mplaint. &nbsp;Attach additional pages if
<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;needed.<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; Name<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; Address<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>City<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>State<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Zip Code<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; County<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; Telephone Number<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; E-Mail Address<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>B. The Defendant(s)<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;Provide the information below for each defendant named in the co=
mplaint, whether the defendant is an<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;individual, a government agency, an organization, or a corporati=
on. &nbsp;For an individual defendant,<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;include the person=92s job or title (if known) and check whether=
 you are bringing this complaint against<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;them in their individual capacity or official capacity, or both.=
 &nbsp;Attach additional pages if needed.<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;Defendant No. 1<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; Name<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; Job or Title (if known)<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; Address<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>City<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>State<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Zip Code<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; County<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; Telephone Number<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; E-Mail Address (if known)<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>0<br>
</div>
<div>Individual capacity<br>
</div>
<div>0<br>
</div>
<div>Official capacity <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;Defendant No. 2<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; Name<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; Job or Title (if known)<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; Address<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>City<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>State<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Zip Code<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; County<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; Telephone Number<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; E-Mail Address (if known)<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>0<br>
</div>
<div>Individual capacity<br>
</div>
<div>0<br>
</div>
<div>Official capacity<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;Defendant No. 3<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; Name<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; Job or Title (if known)<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; Address<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>City<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>State<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Zip Code<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; County<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; Telephone Number<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; E-Mail Address (if known)<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>0<br>
</div>
<div>Individual capacity<br>
</div>
<div>0<br>
</div>
<div>Official capacity<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;Defendant No. 4<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; Name<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; Job or Title (if known)<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; Address<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>City<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>State<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Zip Code<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; County<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; Telephone Number<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; E-Mail Address (if known)<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>0<br>
</div>
<div>Individual capacity<br>
</div>
<div>0<br>
</div>
<div>Official capacity<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>II. Basis for Jurisdiction<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Under 42 U.S.C. =A7 1983, you may sue state or local officials for the=
 &quot;deprivation of any rights, privileges, or
<br>
</div>
<div>immunities secured by the Constitution and [federal laws].&quot; &nbsp=
;Under Bivens v. Six Unknown Named Agents of
<br>
</div>
<div>Federal Bureau of Narcotics, 403 U.S. 388 (1971), you may sue federal =
officials for the violation of certain
<br>
</div>
<div>constitutional rights.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>A. Are you bringing suit against (check all that apply):<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>0<br>
</div>
<div>Federal officials (a Bivens claim)<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>yes i suspect the indian and US travel authorities are partner to it. =
They did not let me be a world traveller<br>
</div>
<div>and prevented me getting money when i was in Thailand which is a total=
ly different economy than US or India<br>
</div>
<div>and where i could have restarted. They prevented me being in Californi=
a with whose nature i was married to
<br>
</div>
<div>and forced me to live in India where i have been repeatedly harmed and=
 still exists with the fear of being harmed.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>0<br>
</div>
<div>State or local officials (a =A7 1983 claim)<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>B. Section 1983 allows claims alleging the &quot;deprivation of any ri=
ghts, privileges, or immunities secured by
<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;the Constitution and [federal laws].&quot; &nbsp;42 U.S.C. =A7 1=
983. &nbsp;If you are suing under section 1983, what
<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;federal constitutional or statutory right(s) do you claim is/are=
 being violated by state or local officials?<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>yes the kerala state has violated my rights by not enforcing any payme=
nts but at the same time allowing an organisation to<br>
</div>
<div>operate and for repeatedly attacking and harming me and injuring my yo=
ga body in low class allopathic hospitals. As i doubt now
<br>
</div>
<div>cousins husbands with criminal nature are partner to it. Despite repea=
tedly protesting three cousins husbands has harmed<br>
</div>
<div>me Bharat Balan and Sridhar.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>C. Plaintiffs suing under Bivens may only recover for the violation of=
 certain constitutional rights. &nbsp;If you
<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;are suing under Bivens, what constitutional right(s) do you clai=
m is/are being violated by federal &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;officials?<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have the right to enjpu and express my sexuality and flower sexually=
. I desired a settled life in California like in
<br>
</div>
<div>a place like petaluma where i can continue my yoga guidance.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>D. Section 1983 allows defendants to be found liable only when they ha=
ve acted &quot;under color of any &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State o=
r Territory or the District of Columbia.&quot; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;42 U.S.C. =A7 1983. &nbsp;If you are suing under section 1983, e=
xplain how each defendant acted under color
<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;of state or local law. &nbsp;If you are suing under Bivens, expl=
ain how each defendant acted under color of
<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;federal law. &nbsp;Attach additional pages if needed.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>III. Statement of Claim<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>State as briefly as possible the facts of your case. &nbsp;Describe ho=
w each defendant was personally involved in the
<br>
</div>
<div>alleged wrongful action, along with the dates and locations of all rel=
evant events. &nbsp;You may wish to include
<br>
</div>
<div>further details such as the names of other persons involved in the eve=
nts giving rise to your claims. &nbsp;Do not cite
<br>
</div>
<div>any cases or statutes. &nbsp;If more than one claim is asserted, numbe=
r each claim and write a short and plain &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div>statement of each claim in a separate paragraph. &nbsp;Attach addition=
al pages if needed.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>A. Where did the events giving rise to your claim(s) occur?<br>
</div>
<div>The events that giving rise to claims occur in four major countries<br=
>
</div>
<div>United States California<br>
</div>
<div>Thailand<br>
</div>
<div>Nepal<br>
</div>
<div>India<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>B. What date and approximate time did the events giving rise to your c=
laim(s) occur?<br>
</div>
<div>The date range is from May 2001 to present..<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>C. What are the facts underlying your claim(s)? &nbsp;(For example: &n=
bsp;What happened to you? &nbsp;Who did
<br>
</div>
<div>what?<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;Was anyone else involved? &nbsp;Who else saw what happened?)<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>- Careless transfer by SUN Microsystems from USA California to Bangalo=
re to employ many in Bangalore and in USA.<br>
</div>
<div>Carelessness and criminal intent of SUN Microsystems in removing me fr=
om US payroll and not putting me in India payroll<br>
</div>
<div>even though the contract of transfer stated that i would be paid in SU=
N India in Rupees as salary. I was in a relation<br>
</div>
<div>with AMy rainier starkey and she visited me in Bangalore and suspects =
behind that are these SUN IEC employees<br>
</div>
<div>Guy Manchuk<br>
</div>
<div>Bridie Omaria<br>
</div>
<div>Hemant Sharma<br>
</div>
<div>Avinash agarwal<br>
</div>
<div>Sheriff kottapurath<br>
</div>
<div>Bernice shimabukaro<br>
</div>
<div>Preeti prayag<br>
</div>
<div>Namrata rao<br>
</div>
<div>Ravikumar GP<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>TO me SUN IEC was a wasteful activity that slumped the market cap of S=
UNW. I was paid some 135000 Indian rupees<br>
</div>
<div>as salary. I was then forced to open citibank India account. I did not=
 have a citibank account in USA. I was not<br>
</div>
<div>really financially savvy and never investigated which banks i should h=
ave opened accounts while in California. There<br>
</div>
<div>was no suggestions by SUN Microsystems payroll.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>- The indians made amy rainer starkey break up with me in APril 2001 a=
fter she visited me in Nepal. I was harassed unnecessarily<br>
</div>
<div>using a dead relation in which there was no sexual coitus by many crim=
inals like sridhar balan VK shankaravarma Vk Manikandan.<br>
</div>
<div>They have used it for more than a decade and its an extremely fraudule=
nt criminal unethical group with no respect for me.<br>
</div>
<div>I was forced to look after a woman as a dependent who is very low ener=
gy slow and also very small for my size. I could never
<br>
</div>
<div>have sexual coitus with her even if we both become gymnasts. My erest =
genitals penis lingam would always be bigger<br>
</div>
<div>than her excited dilated vagina. I was forced into this again by the c=
riminals in akathethara like sridhar , the party sindhus<br>
</div>
<div>foster parents to get rid of her from their lives. I grew up in povert=
y and was forced to study in a boys only school sainik<br>
</div>
<div>school with repulsive restrooms where i had constipated stomach all th=
e time and had to eat food from a low quality mess.<br>
</div>
<div>During college days i did not have money to be a boyfrend to a girlfre=
nd enjoy liberated or consensual surrogate sexuality<br>
</div>
<div>as is common among well of mature adults and such societies. My feelin=
gs were manipulated and i was forced to look after<br>
</div>
<div>sindhu as a spouse by many criminals even now controlling and has harm=
ed my life.
<br>
</div>
<div>After i broke up with amy VK shankaravarma and VK manikandan and a Set=
hu used sindhu to request for money. She wanted 700000 lakhs<br>
</div>
<div>or something. That means they acted as if that relation and case is al=
ive when that was completely over in 1998.<br>
</div>
<div>Me and sindhu never enjoyed even one day of sexual coitus. When she ma=
tured she agreed to separate but abusing her<br>
</div>
<div>the criminals in akathethara has harmed me and probably her as well. T=
hey just want free money and want me my mother<br>
</div>
<div>and probably sindhu dead.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>- A yoga group showed up in rishikesh when i was with amy rainier star=
key in Dec 2000. It was like an international group<br>
</div>
<div>with many europeans Israelis Indians and Americans. The leader Narcis =
tarcau was shown as in a marital relation with<br>
</div>
<div>a short indian woman and that makes me suspect them. Me and amy attend=
ed their class for some days, i was excited and disturbed<br>
</div>
<div>as that man talked about sexual energetics and orgasm without ejaculat=
ion in his lectures even though i was with amy only for two weeks.<br>
</div>
<div>Because of travel and partying high it made me want to go back to rish=
ikesh. When i met with amy in nepal i begged her not to<br>
</div>
<div>break up with me as i was treated cruelly by the criminals like shanka=
ravarma and manikandan and there was a PSS group<br>
</div>
<div>that want me to pay some money to sindhu. That means they are clever t=
hat kept that issue alive and prevented me from being<br>
</div>
<div>in a relation with another woman like amy rainier starkey as is common=
 with the sanfrancisco california tribe if those related<br>
</div>
<div>dont take vows for a life time. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I returned to California in Jan 2002 but i was put under a different g=
roup. Lokanath das was my manager when i was
<br>
</div>
<div>employed by SUN IEC. WHen i was in California Jerry Driscoll left his =
management position. I was like a tech engineer<br>
</div>
<div>enjoying relation with amy not too much into company finances and my c=
reativity was comparatively less to drive companies<br>
</div>
<div>using words and speech but i was like pioneer of WWW browser usage and=
 kept up my interests in WWW user level evolution<br>
</div>
<div>by using WWW email services like hotmail.com, excite.com, yahoo.com et=
c.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I was harassed and put into performance review plan a planned action b=
y many to make me leave company. I used to
<br>
</div>
<div>drop into yoga studios in the evening. I was given US permanent reside=
nt status aug 2003. I was given US permanent<br>
</div>
<div>resident card as well. A steve tried to fight with me as manager and a=
 Michael McPherson put me in a performance
<br>
</div>
<div>management plan the second time. I met with amy rainier starkey once a=
gain in JUne 21 2002. I enjoyed alternative sexual<br>
</div>
<div>relation with many eros woman but they did not have a live in relation=
 with me. I still sought a relation like amy<br>
</div>
<div>rainier starkey. Amy did not connect with me again. I remember the aga=
mayoga group announcing the Yoga international<br>
</div>
<div>festival in 2002 and i wanted to travel and heal my back and when Mich=
ael McPherson put me for second time in performance<br>
</div>
<div>management plan i left. I remember sitting a room jetlagged with a Pau=
l sangster Valerie bubb and Darren moffat.<br>
</div>
<div>The SUN HR send me email of allowing to leave company for three months=
 compensation and i took that option to exit and<br>
</div>
<div>explore, It was careless for sun management to do that. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>A rhonda rose hill yogascience@yahoo.com solicited my attention. I rem=
ember meeting with her for a non sexual date<br>
</div>
<div>in a sanfrancisco hostel. She took me to some Himalayan Tradition func=
tion. I am suspect that woman and her intention<br>
</div>
<div>now. She rejected a carefree relation request and then i explored who =
they are and i remembered signing up for<br>
</div>
<div>a retreat with Usharbud arya, George feurstein etc in Institue of neot=
ic sciences petaluma. I suspect again there<br>
</div>
<div>was money that should have been given to me when i left SUN as a perma=
nent resident by citigroup that was not given to<br>
</div>
<div>me. I entered India and attended a meditation conference in Rishikesh =
in bindu.org. I was travel sick. Again while doing<br>
</div>
<div>all these i was looking for another loving relation but all these were=
 like groups with disciples and woman was not available<br>
</div>
<div>for relating. They were interested in making me into a life time devot=
ee. I found this same with agamayoga.com and bindu.org.<br>
</div>
<div>I stayed in gayathri akathethara in between travels and in Feb 2003 i =
went for a ten day silent retreat in bidnu.org.<br>
</div>
<div>The criminal manipulators bharat sridhar shankaravarma rajkumar made i=
t impossible for me to be trouble free.<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;They harased me using a traffic police ismail and harassed me us=
ing sindhu issue. I bought a royal enfield and<br>
</div>
<div>got a indian drivers license as it was common for foreign travellers t=
o ride enfield. I remember two woman a
<br>
</div>
<div>nastasja gloekner and a natasha gutshtein who showed some interest in =
me but i suspect again prevented to become frends<br>
</div>
<div>with me by the master criminals with the master plan. Even after livin=
g in a marital like relation with amy and having<br>
</div>
<div>enjoyed sexual coitus the criminals kept the sindhu issue alive and ex=
torted 800000rs from me after a trip to california.<br>
</div>
<div>I suspect this was extortion not by sindhu but by balan and sridhar wi=
th partnership with VK shankaravarma and VIK rajkumar
<br>
</div>
<div>and VK manikandan to destroy my life and my life now is really destroy=
ed. Instead of arranging another woman they
<br>
</div>
<div>kept on harassing using sindhu issue, i have stated very clearly to mu=
thuswamy that i could never have sexual coitus
<br>
</div>
<div>with sindhu. They exploited a compassionate energy i had and extorted =
800000rs from me. And the criminals prevented<br>
</div>
<div>sindhu from marrying anyone using me. I was forcefully separated from =
sindhu by criminals sridhar and a sethu. They objected<br>
</div>
<div>to me keeping a frendly relation with her as i had to look after her l=
ike a daughter with no joy of marriage.She was<br>
</div>
<div>very low in energy and all she can do was to cook something for me and=
 sit by my side in a car i drive and network<br>
</div>
<div>with some indians in Bayarea. I really was very unhealthy because of n=
ot being able to have sexual coitus.We went through<br>
</div>
<div>a summary dissolution in California and she does not have anyone in he=
r life. I was informed by my mother that she recieved<br>
</div>
<div>some funds from her foster parents side and i dont have to give anythi=
ng. But i observed they had abandoned leelavilas.<br>
</div>
<div>WHo helped them not stay in leelavilas is a suspicion to me. I was for=
ced to look after her by criminals sridhar VK janaky<br>
</div>
<div>and a KP Gopalamenon nick named bhasi. I think Bhasi wanted to marry V=
K janaki or something like that. Anyway<br>
</div>
<div>after a return to Bombay where i was interviewed and offered a positio=
n in NCST i was informed sindhu is being prevented to<br>
</div>
<div>go to college and this was manipulation by cruel criminals like sridha=
r and balan. I was sexually immature and had a platonic<br>
</div>
<div>relation with that woman sindhu who also was not sexual or athletic ..=
 I had really sexual curshes for other woman in trivandrum<br>
</div>
<div>but i did not have a property or money to express it. I was immature a=
nd unhealthy sexually. I was living with what my mother<br>
</div>
<div>can give me to eat in cheap restaurents and stay in cheap lodges as a =
engineering college student.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Even before i joined NCST the makkal house and those like sridhar and =
VK padmanabha varma manipulated me into taking care of<br>
</div>
<div>her .. and the criminals did not let sindhu just stay with me but crim=
inals like sridhar demanded i register the marriage by some<br>
</div>
<div>written contract. It was not my plan. All i wanted was to let that wom=
an complete college and for that i had to take care of<br>
</div>
<div>her and its criminal intent of many even now continuing. criminal inte=
nt of VKI janaki not to inherit leelavilas to sindhu but<br>
</div>
<div>her son. I went to their house because they used to enter our houses a=
s well. Criminal sridhar and balan was very intrusive and used<br>
</div>
<div>to come into gayathri. It is criminals like sridhar that prevented sin=
dhu staying with my mother in gayathri without marriage registration<br>
</div>
<div>and now that criminal has half killed me and my mother and it cannot b=
e forgiven. I would have enjoyed sexual surrogavcy in<br>
</div>
<div>mumbai and i would have not pursued sindhu and disconnected. I was for=
ced to stay in bangalore because of bhasi in another<br>
</div>
<div>pulappattas house KP Viswas. He is another suspect to this situation a=
s related to sindhus real mother. sindhu was adopted<br>
</div>
<div>by VK janaky from her real mother. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>IV. Injuries<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If you sustained injuries related to the events alleged above, describ=
e your injuries and state what medical<br>
</div>
<div>treatment, if any, you required and did or did not receive.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>V. Relief<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>State briefly what you want the court to do for you. Make no legal arg=
uments. Do not cite any cases or statutes.
<br>
</div>
<div>If requesting money damages, include the amounts of any actual damages=
 and/or punitive damages claimed for
<br>
</div>
<div>the acts alleged. &nbsp;Explain the basis for these claims.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>VI. Certification and Closing<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Under Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 11, by signing below, I certify =
to the best of my knowledge, information,
<br>
</div>
<div>and belief that this complaint: (1) is not being presented for an impr=
oper purpose, such as to harass, cause
<br>
</div>
<div>unnecessary delay, or needlessly increase the cost of litigation; (2) =
is supported by existing law or by a<br>
</div>
<div>nonfrivolous argument for extending, modifying, or reversing existing =
law; (3) the factual contentions have
<br>
</div>
<div>evidentiary support or, if specifically so identified, will likely hav=
e evidentiary support after a reasonable
<br>
</div>
<div>opportunity for further investigation or discovery; and (4) the compla=
int otherwise complies with the
<br>
</div>
<div>requirements of Rule 11.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>A. For Parties Without an Attorney<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;I agree to provide the Clerk=92s Office with any changes to my a=
ddress where case?related papers may
<br>
</div>
<div>be <br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;served. &nbsp;I understand that my failure to keep a current add=
ress on file with the Clerk=92s Office may result<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;in the dismissal of my case.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;Date of signing:<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;Signature of Plaintiff<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;Printed Name of Plaintiff <br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>B. For Attorneys<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;Date of signing:<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;Signature of Attorney<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;Printed Name of Attorney<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;Bar Number<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;Name of Law Firm<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;Address<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>City<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>State<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Zip Code<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;Telephone Number<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;E-mail Address<br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Page &nbsp; of &nbsp;6<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span>Page &nbsp; of &nbsp;6</span><br>
</div>
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or:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div id=3D"x_x_appendonsend"></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"x_x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif=
" color=3D"#000000" style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> pradeep xplorer &=
lt;pradeepan88@hotmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 23, 2019 1:07 PM<br>
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il.com&gt;;
 info@pilates.org.au &lt;info@pilates.org.au&gt;; dgp@tncctns.gov.in &lt;dg=
p@tncctns.gov.in&gt;; office@brietenbush.com &lt;office@brietenbush.com&gt;=
; delpol@vsnl.com &lt;delpol@vsnl.com&gt;; press@interpol.int &lt;press@int=
erpol.int&gt;; rkumar.kpm@nic.in &lt;rkumar.kpm@nic.in&gt;; mukundram2007@g=
mail.com
 &lt;mukundram2007@gmail.com&gt;; info@archive.org &lt;info@archive.org&gt;=
; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz &lt;adminnzch@xtra.co.nz&gt;; info@qatarairways.qa &=
lt;info@qatarairways.qa&gt;; supremecourt@nic.in &lt;supremecourt@nic.in&gt=
;; sasi@cdac.in &lt;sasi@cdac.in&gt;; brandy.dena@citi.com &lt;brandy.dena@=
citi.com&gt;;
 president@whitehouse.gov &lt;president@whitehouse.gov&gt;; info@yogatreesf=
.com &lt;info@yogatreesf.com&gt;; johnjohnassociates@yahoo.co.in &lt;johnjo=
hnassociates@yahoo.co.in&gt;; Mumbaif@state.gov &lt;Mumbaif@state.gov&gt;<b=
r>
<b>Subject:</b> Fw: Hostility by Strangers : Case if HUman rights abuse US =
SS 619726729</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)">
This is an email i send in 2012.. There was a type of a missing not that i =
added.. But overall the email describes i dont want to stay in chepilmuri a=
nd visalakshy is being held hostage.Now its seven years and visalakshy is i=
njured.. i object to this crime
 continuing..<br>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div id=3D"x_x_x_appendonsend"></div>
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"x_x_x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-ser=
if" color=3D"#000000" style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> pradeep xplorer=
 &lt;pradeepan88@hotmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 25, 2012 9:58 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> ffetf@usdoj.gov &lt;ffetf@usdoj.gov&gt;; askdoj@usdoj.gov &lt;as=
kdoj@usdoj.gov&gt;; collinsj@adr.org &lt;collinsj@adr.org&gt;; julie.auvet@=
facebook.com &lt;julie.auvet@facebook.com&gt;; amyji2@gmail.com &lt;amyji2@=
gmail.com&gt;; legal@bluehost.com &lt;legal@bluehost.com&gt;; le.pygmee@fac=
ebook.com
 &lt;le.pygmee@facebook.com&gt;; valerieb@yogaworks.com &lt;valerieb@yogawo=
rks.com&gt;; adam@yogaworks.com &lt;adam@yogaworks.com&gt;; anjana.duff@fac=
ebook.com &lt;anjana.duff@facebook.com&gt;; saraavantstover@facebook.com &l=
t;saraavantstover@facebook.com&gt;; adgpcrimes@keralapolice.gov.in
 &lt;adgpcrimes@keralapolice.gov.in&gt;; hobacblr@cbi.gov.in &lt;hobacblr@c=
bi.gov.in&gt;; nette_nongnuch@hotmail.com &lt;nette_nongnuch@hotmail.com&gt=
;; ssa.comments@ssa.gov &lt;ssa.comments@ssa.gov&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> parveyt@adr.org &lt;parveyt@adr.org&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Hostility by Strangers : Case if HUman rights abuse US SS 6=
19726729</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Helo,<br>
The evening before i was uncomfortable staying in the chepilamuri premises =
into<br>
which visalakshy has shifted last year and where i dont need to stay for an=
y reason.<br>
I do not have cash or income. I am being exploited by strangers just becaus=
e they have<br>
a genetic relation.<br>
<br>
I have only 1000Rs left. Visalakshy did not help me with 10000Rs but 5000Rs=
.<br>
SHe is avoiding cooperating with me to sell some old land properties that c=
ould<br>
help me with some cash. May be she is right. The case has to be settled wit=
hout<br>
those properties being sold as i do not own them. <br>
<br>
I reported Hostility of Kannan, presumably related to this sick shylajas da=
ughter who<br>
want to look after visalakshy. I dont want shylaja staying in that premise =
to which
<br>
visalakshy has shifted with some of my belongings. I disposed all of it. Th=
eres Premkumars<br>
(late fathers dining table from Calcutta days 1970-1975) an old four legged=
 small plywood table<br>
which these are using to eat their food. I suspect these criminals have shi=
fted to some newer<br>
house exploiting me and now appears here. Theres no need for shylaja or her=
 relatives to stay<br>
in that premise. The rent if that property is not owned by visalakshy is so=
me thing around 3000Rs<br>
60 US dollars. Visalakshy can claim that money after Sale of LeelaVilas. <b=
r>
<br>
I went to talk to neighbour Prabhas house to his mother or his partners mot=
her and they
<br>
dont know where visalakshy is. I am again forced to depend on Visalakshy. W=
Hile talking<br>
this sicko criminal stranger Kannan came and started verballu harassing me =
in a car with<br>
another person. He is saying i would get beaten up as if i have to physical=
ly fight with him.<br>
Yesterday i had dinner in hotel Indraprastha. This hotel has a coffee house=
 outside where<br>
i sometimes eat. Yesterday evening there was a big crowd preventing from si=
tting on<br>
any table. SO i went in and ate a kashmiri pulao and that was not up to my =
statndards<br>
and did not feel healthy, stomach was upset and my legs were twitching in m=
orning<br>
and i suspect it had been poisoned.&nbsp; Kannan verbally provoked me and i=
 told him<br>
that he is shameless to use our old dining table. Visalakshy is not present=
. I needed<br>
500000Rs given to me as relief. They dont have. SO i need some more cash 50=
00Rs to<br>
10000Rs to go to bangalore and withdraw whatever PF cash is left in WIpro. =
But these<br>
activities could be done after my case is settled with SUN/ORACLE and for m=
isappropriated<br>
Options. Visalakshy or her relatives cannot misappropriate my wealth as a T=
RUST.<br>
I would not stay in palakkad or in India even a day if this case is settled=
. Please warn<br>
this Kannan not to speak with me. I am not interested in relation to shylaj=
a, or her so called<br>
family. I am being forced to stay in their premises because of actions of U=
S CBP and they<br>
partners to this financial crime.<br>
<br>
I am not able to pay for the site because of these kind of negative exploit=
ers.<br>
<br>
I am not in the company of persons i would like to be with. I would not eve=
n like<br>
seeing these criminals pictures or photos. They are hostile characters<br>
exploiting me. I was made nervous by the food i ate in Indraprastha hotel.<=
br>
I am not able to even rest or relax. WHen would this case end?. This cannot=
 be dragged<br>
so some police officers can be employed. These matters could have been sett=
led in 2004<br>
in United States. Please advice me what to do now?. I do not want to see pe=
rsons <br>
not in my life and who i do not like to relate to. For this my money should=
 be with me<br>
in a direct banking relation.These kind of persons prevented me from making=
 self<br>
exploration course and journals a success.Visalakshy cannot be held hostage=
 by Balan/Prabha or
<br>
Kannan. I want the criminals in Vshalom Care and Cure the low caste facilil=
ty where i was<br>
attacked and detained by the four rogues in palakkad prosecuted and punishe=
d now.<br>
Otherwise it would give encouragement to persons like Kannan to engage me i=
n Physical<br>
fights.<br>
<br>
Pradeep Kumar Xplorer<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_MAXPR01MB23048E4F7DDB26F956A610FFB7C30MAXPR01MB2304INDP_--


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From: pradeep xplorer <pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
To: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" <architecture-discuss@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Please find and prosecute this criminal
Thread-Index: AQHVQfOgao18mjWnEEG17L3XnwA3Yabd2+XF
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2019 04:01:07 +0000
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Subject: [arch-d] Fw: Please find and prosecute this criminal
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________________________________
From: pradeep xplorer
Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2019 1:18:21 PM
To: hopagpr@chi.gov.in <hopagpr@chi.gov.in>
Subject: Please find and prosecute this criminal

as i do not have the ATM or the organisation is continuing their criminal
activity using some criminals acting like my representatives

This is like an advance fee spam scam to me where an 8.3 million dollar
ATM was not delievered to me but behind the back some criminals have stolen=
 8.3 million dollars.
I do not have a single dollar as subscriber help.

I forgot the AMK enterprises detail and a suspect rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com=
 did not give me.


BANK NAME: AXIS BANK CURRENT
 > ACC NAME: TEKRAJ DILKADAYAT
 > ACC NO: 914010035041747
 > IFSC: UTIB0000010
 > PAN: DTNPK8511H

I have paid 250 US dollars to this account from an automatic deposit machin=
e in Newdelhi AXIS Bank account in Statesman towers.

I subsequently lost another 40000Rs to HDFC Bank account holder

AMK enterprises.

This is a criminal organisation operating using my websites and it has to b=
e ended as they have stolen money thats mine last 15 years.

Pradeep Kumar XPlorer
+91.6238940417



--_000_MAXPR01MB2304A42510DD74E16E140633B7C30MAXPR01MB2304INDP_
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"=
>
</head>
<body>
<hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex=3D"-1">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" st=
yle=3D"font-size:11pt" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> pradeep xplorer<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 24, 2019 1:18:21 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> hopagpr@chi.gov.in &lt;hopagpr@chi.gov.in&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Please find and prosecute this criminal</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<style type=3D"text/css" style=3D"display:none">
<!--
p
	{margin-top:0;
	margin-bottom:0}
-->
</style>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)">
as i do not have the ATM or the organisation is continuing their criminal</=
div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)">
activity using some criminals acting like my representatives</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)">
This is like an advance fee spam scam to me where an 8.3 million dollar</di=
v>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)">
ATM was not delievered to me but behind the back some criminals have stolen=
 8.3 million dollars.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)">
I do not have a single dollar as subscriber help.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)">
I forgot the AMK enterprises detail and a suspect rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com=
 did not give me.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)">
<p style=3D"margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:C=
alibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont; font-size:13.3333px"><sp=
an><span>BANK</span> NAME:
<span>AXIS</span> <span>BANK</span> CURRENT</span><br>
<span>&nbsp;&gt; ACC NAME: <span>TEKRAJ</span> DILKADAYAT</span><br>
<span>&nbsp;&gt; ACC NO: 914010035041747</span><br>
<span>&nbsp;&gt; IFSC: UTIB0000010</span><br>
<span>&nbsp;&gt; PAN: DTNPK8511H</span><br>
</span></p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:C=
alibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont; font-size:13.3333px"><sp=
an>I have paid 250 US dollars to this account from an automatic deposit mac=
hine in Newdelhi
<span>AXIS</span> <span>Bank</span> account in Statesman towers.</span></sp=
an></p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:C=
alibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont; font-size:13.3333px"><sp=
an>I subsequently lost another 40000Rs to HDFC
<span>Bank</span> account holder</span></span></p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:C=
alibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont; font-size:13.3333px"><sp=
an>AMK enterprises.
<br>
</span></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)">
This is a criminal organisation operating using my websites and it has to b=
e ended as they have stolen money thats mine last 15 years.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)">
Pradeep Kumar XPlorer</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)">
&#43;91.6238940417<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)">
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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2019 13:29:21 +1000
From: "Martin Thomson" <mt@lowentropy.net>
To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org, privsec-program@iab.org
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Subject: [arch-d] Privsec programme conclusion
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The IAB recently confirmed its collective intent to close the privsec programme.

The privsec programme was formed from separate privacy and security programmes
in 2014, when it was clear that a unified effort was necessary to deal with the
challenges of the time.  Over that period, there have been improvements in
general awareness of challenges in these areas, with advancements in both the
definition and deployment of secure protocols.  To a large extent, the
responsibility for the problems that motivated the creation of the unified
programme has moved to the IETF.  Even though these are by no means "solved"
problems, it is now accepted they are addressed as part of the normal day-to-day
work of the IETF rather than a semi-closed IAB programme.

Though there continues to be a need for work in this general area, the IAB
believes that the current form of the privsec programme is not well suited to
address the full breadth of contemporary issues.  Today, we are facing a range
of subtle and complex problems in this area, including the effect of improved
security on consolidation, the tension between use of encryption and protective
systems deployed in the network, the way in which centralization of different
services can be simultaneously used to improve privacy and degrade it, and the
demands of governments on systems that provide security.

The IAB welcomes input on how these and related topics may best be addressed and
how the IAB might best contribute.  The IAB very much consider these to be
"live" topics, are committed to continued engagement, and aim to continue to
ensure that these topics are at the forefront of IETF considerations.

The IAB would like to thank members of the program, past and present, for their
contributions.


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From: pradeep xplorer <pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
To: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" <architecture-discuss@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: There are many phone numbers i like to type in to my emails
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Subject: [arch-d] There are many phone numbers i like to type in to my emails
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https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xplorer-device-association/
draft-xplorer-device-association-02 - Need for associating Internet Unique =
names to device address and phone numbers and emails ability to send messag=
es using sms and email - datatracker.ietf.org<https://datatracker.ietf.org/=
doc/draft-xplorer-device-association/>
INT Pradeep Kumar Xplorer Internet-Draft Ex-Sun Employee Intended status: S=
tandards Track Individual Expires: Nov 11, 2019 May 11, 2019 Need for assoc=
iating Internet Unique names to device address and phone numbers and emails=
 ability to send messages using sms and email draft-xplorer-device-associat=
ion-02 Abstract This document describes the need for associating Internet U=
nique names to device ...
datatracker.ietf.org


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INT Pradeep Kumar Xplorer Internet-Draft Ex-Sun Employee Intended status: S=
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From nobody Wed Jul 31 02:56:01 2019
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From: "Dirk Kutscher" <ietf@dkutscher.net>
To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [arch-d] IAB Adoption of draft-nottingham-for-the-users-09
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Hi all,

my comments on the draft:

I welcome the effort and the intention to provide some guidelines to 
prevent harm in the technical decision making. Also, the draft has much 
improved compared to earlier versions.

My fundamental concern is that the â€œprioritizing the end userâ€� axiom 
does not automatically lead you to good design decisions â€” because 
there are different stake-holders, interests etc that will just use the 
â€œend userâ€� argument:

- ISP: itâ€™s in the interest of the user to have a well-managed 
networkâ€¦
- government: users are citizens â€” we need to protect them from the 
terrorists
- surveillance platform: the user prefers personalized ads over spam
- addictive social media: the user wants high-speed, confidential access 
to our content

That means, the â€œwhat is good for the end userâ€� argument will have 
to be fought out for almost every design decision. Perhaps this is what 
the draft should say?

Dirk


On 22 Jul 2019, at 16:09, IAB Executive Administrative Manager wrote:

> The IAB will discuss adoption of draft-nottingham-for-the-users-09 at
> its meeting on 2019-08-07.
>
> The draft can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nottingham-for-the-users/
>
> The agenda for the meeting will be posted 48 hours ahead of the 
> meeting
> here: https://www.iab.org/wiki/index.php/Agenda
>
> Feedback about this draft can be sent in response to this mail on
> architecture-discuss@ietf.org, or to the IAB directly at iab@iab.org.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Architecture-discuss mailing list
> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss

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<div class=3D"markdown">
<p dir=3D"auto">Hi all,</p>

<p dir=3D"auto">my comments on the draft:</p>

<p dir=3D"auto">I welcome the effort and the intention to provide some gu=
idelines to prevent harm in the technical decision making. Also, the draf=
t has much improved compared to earlier versions.</p>

<p dir=3D"auto">My fundamental concern is that the =E2=80=9Cprioritizing =
the end user=E2=80=9D axiom does not automatically lead you to good desig=
n decisions =E2=80=94 because there are different stake-holders, interest=
s etc that will just use the =E2=80=9Cend user=E2=80=9D argument:</p>

<ul>
<li>ISP: it=E2=80=99s in the interest of the user to have a well-managed =
network=E2=80=A6</li>
<li>government: users are citizens =E2=80=94 we need to protect them from=
 the terrorists</li>
<li>surveillance platform: the user prefers personalized ads over spam</l=
i>
<li>addictive social media: the user wants high-speed, confidential acces=
s to our content</li>
</ul>

<p dir=3D"auto">That means, the =E2=80=9Cwhat is good for the end user=E2=
=80=9D argument will have to be fought out for almost every design decisi=
on. Perhaps this is what the draft should say?</p>

<p dir=3D"auto">Dirk</p>

<p dir=3D"auto">On 22 Jul 2019, at 16:09, IAB Executive Administrative Ma=
nager wrote:</p>

</div>
<div class=3D"plaintext"><blockquote><p dir=3D"auto">The IAB will discuss=
 adoption of draft-nottingham-for-the-users-09 at<br>
its meeting on 2019-08-07.<br>
<br>
The draft can be found here:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nottingham-for-the-user=
s/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nottingham-for-the-users/</a><=
br>
<br>
The agenda for the meeting will be posted 48 hours ahead of the meeting<b=
r>
here: <a href=3D"https://www.iab.org/wiki/index.php/Agenda">https://www.i=
ab.org/wiki/index.php/Agenda</a><br>
<br>
Feedback about this draft can be sent in response to this mail on<br>
architecture-discuss@ietf.org, or to the IAB directly at iab@iab.org.<br>=

<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Architecture-discuss mailing list<br>
Architecture-discuss@ietf.org<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss</a></p>
</blockquote></div>
<div class=3D"markdown">
</div>

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Subject: Re: [arch-d] IAB Adoption of draft-nottingham-for-the-users-09
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> On 31 Jul 2019, at 11:55, Dirk Kutscher <ietf@dkutscher.net> wrote:
>=20
> That means, the =E2=80=9Cwhat is good for the end user=E2=80=9D =
argument will have to be fought out for almost every design decision. =
Perhaps this is what the draft should say?

To me, that is an important aspect.  It=E2=80=99s good for this tussle =
to play out.  Mark has done a really good job of growing this concept.  =
What we didn=E2=80=99t get to do at the f2f meeting in Montreal is =
establish a venue for how to discuss, and whether PRs would be =
entertained.  IMHO it=E2=80=99s also worth some face time, but that=E2=80=99=
s me.

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On 31 Jul 2019, at 11:55, Dirk Kutscher &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf@dkutscher.net" class=3D"">ietf@dkutscher.net</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: =
16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">That means, the =E2=80=9Cwhat is =
good for the end user=E2=80=9D argument will have to be fought out for =
almost every design decision. Perhaps this is what the draft should =
say?</span></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">To =
me, that is an important aspect. &nbsp;It=E2=80=99s good for this tussle =
to play out. &nbsp;Mark has done a really good job of growing this =
concept. &nbsp;What we didn=E2=80=99t get to do at the f2f meeting in =
Montreal is establish a venue for how to discuss, and whether PRs would =
be entertained. &nbsp;IMHO it=E2=80=99s also worth some face time, but =
that=E2=80=99s me.</div></body></html>=

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From: Marie-Jose Montpetit <marie@mjmontpetit.com>
In-Reply-To: <D8E41D2E-A8D8-4CAE-8496-A2C0C74F387B@dkutscher.net>
References: <D8E41D2E-A8D8-4CAE-8496-A2C0C74F387B@dkutscher.net>
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Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 06:39:07 -0400
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To: Dirk Kutscher <ietf@dkutscher.net>, architecture-discuss@ietf.org
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/architecture-discuss/VpZQLZPQwFqUIFy3bflT-pzPKSQ>
Subject: Re: [arch-d] IAB Adoption of draft-nottingham-for-the-users-09
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Good points!  My comment is about defining end users as non technical. At
what level of knowledge does one become technical or non technical? I would
say that =E2=80=98for the users=E2=80=99 should mean everyone who uses netw=
ork services
that they buy from someone else. As a woman I am sensitive to the
paternalism of the =E2=80=98non technical=E2=80=99 definition.

And as Dirk says =E2=80=98what is good for fhe user=E2=80=99 is very contex=
t dependent, I
am also chairing an IEEE group on face recognition standardization and the
=E2=80=98good for the user=E2=80=99 there is highly debated wether you are =
law enforcement
or citizens activists. I think the draft does not address these nuances.

mjm

Marie-Jos=C3=A9 Montpetit, Ph.D.
Research Affiliate, MIT Media Laboratory
mariejose@mjmontpetit.com
mariejo@mit.edu

On July 31, 2019 at 5:55:51 AM, Dirk Kutscher (ietf@dkutscher.net) wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> my comments on the draft:
>
> I welcome the effort and the intention to provide some guidelines to
> prevent harm in the technical decision making. Also, the draft has much
> improved compared to earlier versions.
>
> My fundamental concern is that the =E2=80=9Cprioritizing the end user=E2=
=80=9D axiom does
> not automatically lead you to good design decisions =E2=80=94 because the=
re are
> different stake-holders, interests etc that will just use the =E2=80=9Cen=
d user=E2=80=9D
> argument:
>
>    - ISP: it=E2=80=99s in the interest of the user to have a well-managed=
 network=E2=80=A6
>    - government: users are citizens =E2=80=94 we need to protect them fro=
m the
>    terrorists
>    - surveillance platform: the user prefers personalized ads over spam
>    - addictive social media: the user wants high-speed, confidential
>    access to our content
>
> That means, the =E2=80=9Cwhat is good for the end user=E2=80=9D argument =
will have to be
> fought out for almost every design decision. Perhaps this is what the dra=
ft
> should say?
>
> Dirk
>
> On 22 Jul 2019, at 16:09, IAB Executive Administrative Manager wrote:
>
> The IAB will discuss adoption of draft-nottingham-for-the-users-09 at
> its meeting on 2019-08-07.
>
> The draft can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nottingham-for-the-users/
>
> The agenda for the meeting will be posted 48 hours ahead of the meeting
> here: https://www.iab.org/wiki/index.php/Agenda
>
> Feedback about this draft can be sent in response to this mail on
> architecture-discuss@ietf.org, or to the IAB directly at iab@iab.org.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Architecture-discuss mailing list
> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss
>
> _______________________________________________
> Architecture-discuss mailing list
> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss
>

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<html><head></head><body>Good points!=C2=A0 My comment is about defining en=
d users as non technical. At what level of knowledge does one become techni=
cal or non technical? I would say that =E2=80=98for the users=E2=80=99 shou=
ld mean everyone who uses network services that they buy from someone else.=
 As a woman I am sensitive to the paternalism of the =E2=80=98non technical=
=E2=80=99 definition.<div><br></div><div>And as Dirk says =E2=80=98what is =
good for fhe user=E2=80=99 is very context dependent, I am also chairing an=
 IEEE group on face recognition standardization and the =E2=80=98good for t=
he user=E2=80=99 there is highly debated wether you are law enforcement or =
citizens activists. I think the draft does not address these nuances.</div>=
<div><br></div><div>mjm=C2=A0<br> <br><div class=3D"gmail_signature">Marie-=
Jos=C3=A9 Montpetit, Ph.D.<div>Research Affiliate, MIT Media Laboratory<br>=
<div><a href=3D"mailto:mariejose@mjmontpetit.com">mariejose@mjmontpetit.com=
</a></div><div><a href=3D"mailto:mariejo@mit.edu" dir=3D"ltr">mariejo@mit.e=
du</a></div></div></div> <p class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"color:#000">On J=
uly 31, 2019 at 5:55:51 AM, Dirk Kutscher (<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@dkutscher=
.net">ietf@dkutscher.net</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D=
"gmail_quote"><span><div><div></div><div>




<title></title>


<div class=3D"markdown">
<p dir=3D"auto">Hi all,</p>
<p dir=3D"auto">my comments on the draft:</p>
<p dir=3D"auto">I welcome the effort and the intention to provide
some guidelines to prevent harm in the technical decision making.
Also, the draft has much improved compared to earlier versions.</p>
<p dir=3D"auto">My fundamental concern is that the =E2=80=9Cprioritizing th=
e
end user=E2=80=9D axiom does not automatically lead you to good design
decisions =E2=80=94 because there are different stake-holders, interests
etc that will just use the =E2=80=9Cend user=E2=80=9D argument:</p>
<ul>
<li>ISP: it=E2=80=99s in the interest of the user to have a well-managed
network=E2=80=A6</li>
<li>government: users are citizens =E2=80=94 we need to protect them from
the terrorists</li>
<li>surveillance platform: the user prefers personalized ads over
spam</li>
<li>addictive social media: the user wants high-speed, confidential
access to our content</li>
</ul>
<p dir=3D"auto">That means, the =E2=80=9Cwhat is good for the end user=E2=
=80=9D
argument will have to be fought out for almost every design
decision. Perhaps this is what the draft should say?</p>
<p dir=3D"auto">Dirk</p>
<p dir=3D"auto">On 22 Jul 2019, at 16:09, IAB Executive
Administrative Manager wrote:</p>
</div>
<div class=3D"plaintext">
<blockquote>
<p dir=3D"auto">The IAB will discuss adoption of
draft-nottingham-for-the-users-09 at<br>
its meeting on 2019-08-07.<br>
<br>
The draft can be found here:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nottingham-for-the-users/=
">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nottingham-for-the-users/</a><br>

<br>
The agenda for the meeting will be posted 48 hours ahead of the
meeting<br>
here: <a href=3D"https://www.iab.org/wiki/index.php/Agenda">https://www.iab=
.org/wiki/index.php/Agenda</a><br>

<br>
Feedback about this draft can be sent in response to this mail
on<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:architecture-discuss@ietf.org">architecture-discuss@ietf.=
org</a>, or to the IAB directly at
<a href=3D"mailto:iab@iab.org">iab@iab.org</a>.<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Architecture-discuss mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Architecture-discuss@ietf.org">Architecture-discuss@ietf.=
org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss">http=
s://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss</a></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div class=3D"markdown"></div>


_______________________________________________
<br>Architecture-discuss mailing list
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etf.org</a>
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