From nobody Fri Dec 13 00:39:24 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E372F1200EF for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2019 00:39:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IsNC2sGPR0Wz for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2019 00:39:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from aer-iport-3.cisco.com (aer-iport-3.cisco.com [173.38.203.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 93E2812008C for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2019 00:39:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=18023; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1576226355; x=1577435955; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc: to:references; bh=6ekeviGWh8c3lWkhJhtdsCt8Cvc3UknESI36m360GOY=; b=Mnpcxsiw7dReGfAN3W9SAgPvMvZipYUmb5ZycsWVbqbpnMBM2MV2dZ/1 T5Bo4hvyFYHLwFqJvxjPMXHKXrX6qgog9reUzEw6ijyslsNbK18EXAH5B crlBTqGP6Qwu5qbvU+qtFwAptLy+O8PcFkzC+mojxk5Hlfv4zTPqTwOHv 0=; X-Files: signature.asc : 488 X-IPAS-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0D+AADpTfNd/xbLJq1lGwEBAQEBAQEFAQEBEQEBAwMBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QGBfoF0gW0gEiqEA4kDiA0lgQGSI4YkgWcCBwEBAQkDAQEvAQGEQAKCLjgTA?= =?us-ascii?q?gMBAQEDAgMBAQEBBAEBAQIBBQRthUOFXgEBAQECASNUAgULCw4EBhUVAgJJD?= =?us-ascii?q?gYTFAuDAwGCVyCsKXWBMoVPhHAQgTaBU4pfggCBEScMFIIXNT6EBAkgW4JRM?= =?us-ascii?q?oIsBI0WiW2XbII6gjyBGYJGhjyJIgIZgkKHdoQahy+EQKVlgyMCBAYFAhWBa?= =?us-ascii?q?SI+gRozGggbFWUBgVloPhIRFFaMSBeBBAEHjRhAAzCPO2ABAQ?= X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.69,195,1571702400"; d="asc'?scan'208,217";a="20290412" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-2.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 13 Dec 2019 08:39:13 +0000 Received: from [10.61.204.232] ([10.61.204.232]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id xBD8dBhU011125 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 13 Dec 2019 08:39:11 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: <31473650-0872-4EFE-A99C-E3DD4CDBC700@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_470350DF-176D-4187-AFA5-D3C21E30A0AB"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.40.2.2.4\)) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 09:39:10 +0100 In-Reply-To: <4A034991-E5C8-4797-B6BF-9484BB2FA614@fugue.com> Cc: Vittorio Bertola , "hrpc@irtf.org" , architecture-discuss@ietf.org To: Ted Lemon References: <157403781873.6404.6154827441040413193.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <01246A3C-31EC-4B7B-841D-F799EEFADCB8@mnot.net> <227662299.12784.1575991106819@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <429195684.13066.1575996064551@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <0C729385-1361-460C-9C16-E1BE1680A3E6@fugue.com> <1100636076.15285.1576072588087@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <4A034991-E5C8-4797-B6BF-9484BB2FA614@fugue.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.40.2.2.4) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.204.232, [10.61.204.232] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-2.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-iab-for-the-users-01.txt X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 08:39:19 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_470350DF-176D-4187-AFA5-D3C21E30A0AB Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9D69F786-F085-4521-9C18-ABEF6765AEF3" --Apple-Mail=_9D69F786-F085-4521-9C18-ABEF6765AEF3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Ted, Vittorio, and others, I am attempting to consolidate this thread with any discussion that = might take place on architecture-discuss (thus the CC), in large part = because this isn=E2=80=99t simply related to human rights, as we = generally think of them. I apologize for the length of this note. &TLDR; the draft needs to go a little slower on recommendations, and = should focus more on raising the issues for discussion within our = community, which are complex, as I will get into below. Mark and the IAB have taken on a very difficult task, which is to = establish some sort of priority for end users. The dialog in the draft = has shifted over time, and it is often difficult to understand precisely = what the practical implications of the recommendations are intended to = be. In the latest revision, Section 4 is expanded to really delve into = the nature of harm, and how we should consider harm. But there are few = examples, leading to a point where it is difficult to understand the = implications of what is being said. I do like the economic incentive = discussion, but I=E2=80=99m not sure whether it is broadly applicable. = That should get developed a bit more. It concerns me that Paul Wouters can take from this document that = somehow enterprises do not address end user interests. The example I = always give is that of a business who has a regulatory requirement to = avoid leaking PII. There are all sorts of toolsets that MITM = communications in order to protect the privacy of account holders. I = think it would be useful for the draft to address this example as a bit = of a case study. One can reasonably argue that an explicit proxy = mechanism on at least one side of a communication provides for this, but = it begins to encroach on the so-called =E2=80=9Cend-to-end=E2=80=9D = views (I put that in quotes because the end-to-end model is often = misused in these sorts of discussions). I really like the comparison between the web and IoT. I would go = further: some of the very same technology that is used to protect users = on the web may in fact be harmful to users when employed by IoT. I=E2=80=99= ll expand on this below. The most difficult part of the draft remains who gets to decide what is = in the interest of end users. IMHO whether it=E2=80=99s governments, = NGOs, or whoever, there is no way anyone can claim that mantel. The = best we have is rough consensus and running code, guided by whatever = input participants bring to the table. I would suggest that the IAB go a bit slower with recommendations, and = focus more on discussion, which is quite valuable. It=E2=80=99s okay = not to have all the answers, but it may be just a bit too early to make = strong recommendation to the IETF because we do not yet see the whole = board. I could definitely see this document being revised in an almost = bi-annual basis, given how fast the state of the art is moving. Please see below for more: > On 11 Dec 2019, at 18:03, Ted Lemon wrote: >=20 >=20 > So e.g. if we were to abandon the end-to-end principle, or advocate = blocking protocols by default, that would be against the user=E2=80=99s = interests. If we were to advocate censorship, that would be against = the users=E2=80=99 interests. This is clear, because an act of = censorship necessarily implies that something the user wanted to do, the = user can=E2=80=99t do. That=E2=80=99s acting against the user=E2=80=99s = interests. As we apply these principles, one person=E2=80=99s censorship is another = person=E2=80=99s privacy control, as I discussed above and will again = below, depending on how specific mechanisms are deployed. > Another example of the user=E2=80=99s interest is the user=E2=80=99s = interest in privacy. You will not find a user out there who doesn=E2=80=99= t care about their own privacy. Professor Serge Egelman at ICSI has delved deeply into this, and what he = has found is that people are easily willing to trade off privacy for = convenience, and we know this to be the case with the Amazon Echo. But = they are quite a bit more reticent when they learn that most processing = goes on in the cloud, or that other people are listening, or when it is = their children or guests that are being recorded. . This has = ramifications for the IETF in as much as our mechanisms are used to = enable end-to-end communication between Amazon and the home. OTOH, = exactly how much information a service keeps once they have it is not = something this organization can impact. Complicating matters, privacy cannot be the only concern. Let=E2=80=99s = say that a law was passed that required some local processing to address = privacy concerns. No matter how you slice it, that harms the = environment, requiring more power usage, more memory, and more CPU, that = eventually generates more e-Waste. If you missed that, it=E2=80=99s an = argument in favor of end-to-end encryption, but against privacy = protections in our protocol suite. Looking at an industrial IOT example, the user may not be typing on the = interface that controls electrical power or manages a dam, but this may = have far more impact to individuals than their information being = captured by hackers. How does auditing occur when we cannot reasonably = trust that an end device is secure? The draft seems to recognize this = challenge, but I=E2=80=99m not sure that=E2=80=99s reflected in = recommendations. And to just add fuel to the dumpster fire, there is = plenty of PII mixed in at certain points in some industrial = environments. Given the above examples, one could reasonably argue that we should be = developing 3rd party authorization models for encryption to protect both = safety and privacy. But if we do so, would that cause more harm than = good when dealing with bad actor governments? I can=E2=80=99t answer = that, and anyone who can is demonstrating hubris. The draft can be = misinterpreted, I think, to say, =E2=80=9Cif one person benefits and = another person is harmed, then do nothing=E2=80=9D. Lives are put at = risk either way, and while looking at the whole board is hard, we have a = responsibility to do so to produce least harm, assuming we are well = suited to even make a call. > You may find users who would like to violate other user=E2=80=99s = [sic] privacy, I hope you will be pleased to learn that at least some research (not = just Egelman=E2=80=99s) shows that people generally don=E2=80=99t like = doing this, and in fact they won=E2=80=99t sell off other people=E2=80=99s= information. On the other hand, you and I have a mutual friend who got = royally miffed when I drop shipped to him a gift off of the web. That = showed my ignorance at the time that there was even a privacy concern to = be had. And so it is not a matter of liking or not liking but = understanding when that violation is occurring. Your point about = transparency is very apt, although the use of =E2=80=9Conline service = provider=E2=80=9D can be ambiguously interpreted: when we got into this, = people in this organization viewed telcos as a big threat. The world = has really changed since then, no? Eliot --Apple-Mail=_9D69F786-F085-4521-9C18-ABEF6765AEF3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Ted, Vittorio, and others,

I am attempting to consolidate this thread with any = discussion that might take place on architecture-discuss (thus the CC), = in large part because this isn=E2=80=99t simply related to human rights, = as we generally think of them.  I apologize for the length of this = note.

&TLDR; the draft needs to go a little slower on = recommendations, and should focus more on raising the issues for = discussion within our community, which are complex, as I will get into = below.

Mark and the = IAB have taken on a very difficult task, which is to establish some sort = of priority for end users.  The dialog in the draft has shifted = over time, and it is often difficult to understand precisely what the = practical implications of the recommendations are intended to be. =  In the latest revision, Section 4 is expanded to really delve into = the nature of harm, and how we should consider harm.  But there are = few examples, leading to a point where it is difficult to understand the = implications of what is being said.  I do like the economic = incentive discussion, but I=E2=80=99m not sure whether it is broadly = applicable.  That should get developed a bit more.

It concerns me that Paul Wouters can take from = this document that somehow enterprises do not address end user = interests.  The example I always give is that of a business who has = a regulatory requirement to avoid leaking PII.  There are all sorts = of toolsets that MITM communications in order to protect the privacy of account holders.  I = think it would be useful for the draft to address this example as a bit = of a case study.  One can reasonably argue that an explicit proxy = mechanism on at least one side of a communication provides for this, but = it begins to encroach on the so-called =E2=80=9Cend-to-end=E2=80=9D = views (I put that in quotes because the end-to-end model is often = misused in these sorts of discussions).

I really like the comparison between the web and = IoT.  I would go further: some of the very same technology that is = used to protect users on the web may in fact be harmful to users when = employed by IoT.  I=E2=80=99ll expand on this below.

The most difficult part of the draft remains who = gets to decide what is in the interest of end users.  IMHO whether = it=E2=80=99s governments, NGOs, or whoever, there is no way anyone can = claim that mantel.  The best we have is rough consensus and running = code, guided by whatever input participants bring to the = table.

I would suggest that the IAB = go a bit slower with recommendations, and focus more on discussion, = which is quite valuable.  It=E2=80=99s okay not to have all the = answers, but it may be just a bit too early to make strong = recommendation to the IETF because we do not yet see the whole board. =  I could definitely see this document being revised in an almost = bi-annual basis, given how fast the state of the art is = moving.

Please see below for = more:


On 11 Dec 2019, at 18:03, Ted = Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:


So e.g. if we were to abandon the = end-to-end principle, or advocate blocking protocols by default, that = would be against the user=E2=80=99s interests.   If we were to = advocate censorship, that would be against the users=E2=80=99 interests. =   This is clear, because an act of censorship necessarily implies = that something the user wanted to do, the user can=E2=80=99t do.   = That=E2=80=99s acting against the user=E2=80=99s = interests.

As we = apply these principles, one person=E2=80=99s censorship is another = person=E2=80=99s privacy control, as I discussed above and will again = below, depending on how specific mechanisms are deployed.

Another example of the user=E2=80=99s = interest is the user=E2=80=99s interest in privacy.  You will not = find a user out there who doesn=E2=80=99t care about their own privacy. =  

Professor = Serge Egelman at ICSI has delved deeply into this, and what he has found = is that people are easily willing to trade off privacy for convenience, = and we know this to be the case with the Amazon Echo.  But they are = quite a bit more reticent when they learn that most processing goes on = in the cloud, or that other people are listening, or when it is their = children or guests that are being recorded. .  This has = ramifications for the IETF in as much as our mechanisms are used to = enable end-to-end communication between Amazon and the home.  OTOH, = exactly how much information a service keeps once they have it is not = something this organization can impact.

Complicating matters, privacy cannot be the only = concern.  Let=E2=80=99s say that a law was passed that required = some local processing to address privacy concerns.  No matter how = you slice it, that harms the environment, requiring more power usage, = more memory, and more CPU, that eventually generates more e-Waste. =  If you missed that, it=E2=80=99s an argument in favor of = end-to-end encryption, but against privacy protections in our protocol = suite.

Looking at an industrial = IOT example, the user may not be typing on the interface that controls = electrical power or manages a dam, but this may have far more impact to = individuals than their information being captured by hackers.  How = does auditing occur when we cannot reasonably trust that an end device = is secure?  The draft seems = to recognize this challenge, but I=E2=80=99m not sure that=E2=80=99s = reflected in recommendations.  And to just add fuel to the dumpster = fire, there is plenty of PII mixed in at certain points in some = industrial environments.

Given the above examples, one could reasonably argue = that we should be developing 3rd party authorization models for = encryption to protect both safety and privacy.  But if we do so, = would that cause more harm than good when dealing with bad actor = governments?  I can=E2=80=99t answer that, and anyone who can is = demonstrating hubris.  The draft can be misinterpreted, I think, to = say, =E2=80=9Cif one person benefits and another person is harmed, then = do nothing=E2=80=9D.  Lives are put at risk either way, and while = looking at the whole board is hard, we have a responsibility to do so to = produce least harm, assuming we are well suited to even make a = call.

You may find users who would like to violate = other user=E2=80=99s [sic] = privacy,

I = hope you will be pleased to learn that at least some research (not just = Egelman=E2=80=99s) shows that people generally don=E2=80=99t like doing = this, and in fact they won=E2=80=99t sell off other people=E2=80=99s = information.  On the other hand, you and I have a mutual friend who = got royally miffed when I drop shipped to him a gift off of the web. =  That showed my ignorance at the time that there was even a privacy = concern to be had.  And so it is not a matter of liking or not = liking but understanding when that violation is occurring.  Your = point about transparency is very apt, although the use of =E2=80=9Conline = service provider=E2=80=9D can be ambiguously interpreted: when we got = into this, people in this organization viewed telcos as a big threat. =  The world has really changed since then, = no?

Eliot
= --Apple-Mail=_9D69F786-F085-4521-9C18-ABEF6765AEF3-- --Apple-Mail=_470350DF-176D-4187-AFA5-D3C21E30A0AB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAl3zTi4ACgkQh7ZrRtnS ejOKmAf/VrHSC1OQyLXpM2+aOzqhIOJYiMEzDt1APtLCM4QFsEZbhrf50Yr1QF75 Zpd2M06QknKU/NCVN40mGRss8TXkGm4abLbeynOtGNHIycCtFRznTOm7wcaozAry cP8ItjAj7wJaEzfdIAw8/Yur1XHKl7URoUmsUG6XgGgj7wf9iHnrf7ZBLZ5V3XHA fZ9/eyRylIxHI4LntL0+nPevBX336rGyoHzTsLsUhUEhwl5/mwnDVXnf6oQxaUj9 F0th8u1Dd0H7yu99YLoFEli441LaARxoyNWth/MDyGVQMcoFpyWSN49F/lb4GqDz AzEU814L8jaya68IXFxFHY2b1Sx/xA== =7WJ6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_470350DF-176D-4187-AFA5-D3C21E30A0AB-- From nobody Fri Dec 13 05:20:01 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 210E812003F for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2019 05:19:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bc_Bu36M812u for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2019 05:19:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x333.google.com (mail-ot1-x333.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::333]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 873C112081A for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2019 05:19:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x333.google.com with SMTP id p8so6438639oth.10 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2019 05:19:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=EMV62/TPS8bpjFueBYzFrNdLwBFdmbUkRLOfLVuqHRA=; b=huQvpNU0aeNiWNLZs8KHUGke0vegnQBCA6Pry6rtVkgQGFvCGqMDOZ9Ww+NLiBqpLI rZk5tKEzf3NrlB65+hEnQYoWJVVIzgnlneZU9ZcaBrB0r/6OuAj57AsPq/BVYcIVnk7J iaR2H/JydLr/t0HIQ7lUGhgXCNm5haD9TUkYSOeKwQUSSSd5prCU5zS+Si4QCLiJ6ENM ON/aBgDFQ6Py3EJ8spxGfJaWUhluoTZl0R9psfbelVA+HA5qTKwGyVSCGVmVsF8Hc2JW qpQn7TUYBtbC235ujoNiJMhzRbex6AvO8siOa4SiLd1k/vHkrGK1eYnmgdaklB2X5ky7 Cj6Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=EMV62/TPS8bpjFueBYzFrNdLwBFdmbUkRLOfLVuqHRA=; b=MyFHqKY0/t8npmXBhmyytc5MEFHaHzMKg41oBT/4rrAYC89ejsLHxva7xjKoZ6iVE7 kOEpT7C1KisnyDcMnDg0GYKwt+zH3rp8IqjkjvZj3cRWriXjgGrbndBcNoU+WSLgN6/U 3shdrRPDKqjtPmnIHuF5Pm/WJ2pCqJrQtdDXamluxIMNhPvrhDyGfIK+EVmE3NCq8nRS PF/y/oi+ZX7uTAYnuRk5D3NLd5juCjMvmVnE5RxptAGZf9KdfqBmeIaldY8z6UKFdpl7 0OEtX9/YvIxSF/MXa3eh/fOTnSqEaseEBlVr4YGMUyOHrumCZ9+0takSmyL+vkZ3tlxI YG9Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWILFJvcMAsGS0gytIt6ajGjNaxghrtGO0IPIGnYoZHMVgBmy0f SoGYL/Z1iwCCDKvJEfFLVQjdwM0o6Mh+YvBtRA0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwFM7v56uSuWqX945a6DOPnmRMIL2fD4uVDxB8lK0MH6YoE+x3UUCec+eYKu14umIj5+ZcQW5Js9bTfDOjstxE= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:6654:: with SMTP id q20mr14344811otm.284.1576243189858; Fri, 13 Dec 2019 05:19:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6830:1155:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Fri, 13 Dec 2019 05:19:49 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <31473650-0872-4EFE-A99C-E3DD4CDBC700@cisco.com> References: <157403781873.6404.6154827441040413193.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <01246A3C-31EC-4B7B-841D-F799EEFADCB8@mnot.net> <227662299.12784.1575991106819@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <429195684.13066.1575996064551@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <0C729385-1361-460C-9C16-E1BE1680A3E6@fugue.com> <1100636076.15285.1576072588087@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <4A034991-E5C8-4797-B6BF-9484BB2FA614@fugue.com> <31473650-0872-4EFE-A99C-E3DD4CDBC700@cisco.com> From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 20:19:49 +0700 Message-ID: To: Eliot Lear Cc: Ted Lemon , "hrpc@irtf.org" , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000694485059995b779" Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-iab-for-the-users-01.txt X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 13:19:54 -0000 --000000000000694485059995b779 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Eliot, architecture-discuss & others (hrpc@irtf.org & Ted), Would it be about "User-Focused System" (sec. 4.2) or "Positive User Outcomes" (sec. 4.3)...? It comes to mind that Internet is about human experiences with such communication platform enabled by networks of computers: men learn and learn on what they do: experiences are about things interesting, about creativities --and thus evolutions, innovations of technologies supporting. There are networks of interests/intentions of users' & architects' being impulses of evolutions... It was examplified by IETF's concerns on evolution ( among others mentioned in Mark' reference for the draft: RFC 3724 on "evolution"); another is how the Web's inventor T. Berners-Lee contemplated its "evolvability" ( https://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Evolution.html). Citing a paragraph I sent to public-xformsusers@w3.org with an emphasis on networks of interests of users' and architects': "For the Internet and the Web, thus networks of computer-based communications and informations --at least considering the Web goals of interoperbility and evolvability/evolution if they are still so while if it has not been changed evolution is a main concern of Internet engineers--, there would supposedly be networks of applications supported by languages: and there would also be those of intentions/interests of users' and architects'... Is'nt it so..."? Few other paragraphs of the post could be seen at https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2019Dec/0018.html Regard, Guntur Wiseno Putra Pada Jumat, 13 Desember 2019, Eliot Lear menulis: > Hi Ted, Vittorio, and others, > > I am attempting to consolidate this thread with any discussion that might > take place on architecture-discuss (thus the CC), in large part because > this isn=E2=80=99t simply related to human rights, as we generally think = of them. > I apologize for the length of this note. > > &TLDR; the draft needs to go a little slower on recommendations, and > should focus more on raising the issues for discussion within our > community, which are complex, as I will get into below. > > Mark and the IAB have taken on a very difficult task, which is to > establish some sort of priority for end users. The dialog in the draft h= as > shifted over time, and it is often difficult to understand precisely what > the practical implications of the recommendations are intended to be. In > the latest revision, Section 4 is expanded to really delve into the natur= e > of harm, and how we should consider harm. But there are few examples, > leading to a point where it is difficult to understand the implications o= f > what is being said. I do like the economic incentive discussion, but I= =E2=80=99m > not sure whether it is broadly applicable. That should get developed a b= it > more. > > It concerns me that Paul Wouters can take from this document that somehow > enterprises do not address end user interests. The example I always give > is that of a business who has a regulatory requirement to avoid leaking > PII. There are all sorts of toolsets that MITM communications in order t= o > *protect* the privacy of account holders. I think it would be useful for > the draft to address this example as a bit of a case study. One can > reasonably argue that an explicit proxy mechanism on at least one side of= a > communication provides for this, but it begins to encroach on the so-call= ed > =E2=80=9Cend-to-end=E2=80=9D views (I put that in quotes because the end-= to-end model is > often misused in these sorts of discussions). > > I really like the comparison between the web and IoT. I would go further= : > some of the very same technology that is used to protect users on the web > may in fact be harmful to users when employed by IoT. I=E2=80=99ll expan= d on this > below. > > The most difficult part of the draft remains who gets to decide what is i= n > the interest of end users. IMHO whether it=E2=80=99s governments, NGOs, = or > whoever, there is no way anyone can claim that mantel. The best we have = is > rough consensus and running code, guided by whatever input participants > bring to the table. > > I would suggest that the IAB go a bit slower with recommendations, and > focus more on discussion, which is quite valuable. It=E2=80=99s okay not= to have > all the answers, but it may be just a bit too early to make strong > recommendation to the IETF because we do not yet see the whole board. I > could definitely see this document being revised in an almost bi-annual > basis, given how fast the state of the art is moving. > > Please see below for more: > > > On 11 Dec 2019, at 18:03, Ted Lemon wrote: > > > So e.g. if we were to abandon the end-to-end principle, or advocate > blocking protocols by default, that would be against the user=E2=80=99s i= nterests. > If we were to advocate censorship, that would be against the users=E2= =80=99 > interests. This is clear, because an act of censorship necessarily > implies that something the user wanted to do, the user can=E2=80=99t do. = That=E2=80=99s > acting against the user=E2=80=99s interests. > > > As we apply these principles, one person=E2=80=99s censorship is another = person=E2=80=99s > privacy control, as I discussed above and will again below, depending on > how specific mechanisms are deployed. > > Another example of the user=E2=80=99s interest is the user=E2=80=99s inte= rest in privacy. > You will not find a user out there who doesn=E2=80=99t care about their o= wn > privacy. > > > Professor Serge Egelman at ICSI has delved deeply into this, and what he > has found is that people are easily willing to trade off privacy for > convenience, and we know this to be the case with the Amazon Echo. But > they are quite a bit more reticent when they learn that most processing > goes on in the cloud, or that other people are listening, or when it is > their children or guests that are being recorded. . This has ramificatio= ns > for the IETF in as much as our mechanisms are used to enable end-to-end > communication between Amazon and the home. OTOH, exactly how much > information a service keeps once they have it is not something this > organization can impact. > > Complicating matters, privacy cannot be the only concern. Let=E2=80=99s = say that > a law was passed that required some local processing to address privacy > concerns. No matter how you slice it, that harms the environment, > requiring more power usage, more memory, and more CPU, that eventually > generates more e-Waste. If you missed that, it=E2=80=99s an argument in = favor of > end-to-end encryption, but against privacy protections in our protocol > suite. > > Looking at an industrial IOT example, the user may not be typing on the > interface that controls electrical power or manages a dam, but this may > have far more impact to individuals than their information being captured > by hackers. How does auditing occur when we cannot reasonably trust that > an end device is secure? The draft seems to recognize this challenge, > but I=E2=80=99m not sure that=E2=80=99s reflected in recommendations. An= d to just add fuel > to the dumpster fire, there is plenty of PII mixed in at certain points i= n > some industrial environments. > > Given the above examples, one could reasonably argue that we should be > developing 3rd party authorization models for encryption to protect both > safety and privacy. But if we do so, would that cause more harm than goo= d > when dealing with bad actor governments? I can=E2=80=99t answer that, an= d anyone > who can is demonstrating hubris. The draft can be misinterpreted, I thin= k, > to say, =E2=80=9Cif one person benefits and another person is harmed, the= n do > nothing=E2=80=9D. Lives are put at risk either way, and while looking at= the whole > board is hard, we have a responsibility to do so to produce least harm, > assuming we are well suited to even make a call. > > You may find users who would like to violate other user=E2=80=99s [sic] p= rivacy, > > > I hope you will be pleased to learn that at least some research (not just > Egelman=E2=80=99s) shows that people generally don=E2=80=99t like doing t= his, and in fact > they won=E2=80=99t sell off other people=E2=80=99s information. On the o= ther hand, you and > I have a mutual friend who got royally miffed when I drop shipped to him = a > gift off of the web. That showed my ignorance at the time that there was > even a privacy concern to be had. And so it is not a matter of liking or > not liking but understanding when that violation is occurring. Your poin= t > about transparency is very apt, although the use of =E2=80=9Conline servi= ce > provider=E2=80=9D can be ambiguously interpreted: when we got into this, = people in > this organization viewed telcos as a big threat. The world has *really* = changed > since then, no? > > Eliot > --000000000000694485059995b779 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Eliot,=C2=A0
architecture-discuss &=C2=A0
others (hrpc@irtf.org & Ted),



Would it be about "= ;User-Focused System" (sec. 4.2) or "Positive User Outcomes"= (sec. 4.3)...?



It c= omes to mind that Internet is about human experiences with such communicati= on platform enabled by networks of computers: men learn and learn on what t= hey do: experiences are about things interesting, about creativities --and = thus evolutions, innovations of technologies supporting. There are networks= of interests/intentions of users' & architects' being impulses= of evolutions...

It was examplified by IETF's= concerns on evolution ( among others mentioned in Mark' reference for = the draft: RFC 3724 on "evolution"); another is how the Web's= inventor T. Berners-Lee contemplated =C2=A0its "evolvability" (<= a href=3D"https://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Evolution.html">https://www.w3.or= g/DesignIssues/Evolution.html).

Citing a parag= raph I sent to public-xformsusers@w3.org=C2=A0with an emphasis on networks of inter= ests of users' and architects':


=
"For the Internet and the Web, thus networks of computer-b= ased communications and informations --at least considering the Web goals o= f interoperbility and evolvability/evolution if they are still so while if = it has not been changed evolution is a main concern of Internet engineers--= , there would supposedly be networks=C2=A0of applications supported by lang= uages: and there would also be those of intentions/interests of users' = and architects'... Is'nt it so..."?

<= /div>

Few other paragraphs of the post could be seen at<= /div>https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/201= 9Dec/0018.html

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pad= a Jumat, 13 Desember 2019, Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> menulis:
= Hi Ted, Vittorio, and others,

I am attempting to consoli= date this thread with any discussion that might take place on architecture-= discuss (thus the CC), in large part because this isn=E2=80=99t simply rela= ted to human rights, as we generally think of them.=C2=A0 I apologize for t= he length of this note.

&TLDR; the draft needs t= o go a little slower on recommendations, and should focus more on raising t= he issues for discussion within our community, which are complex, as I will= get into below.

Mark and the IAB have taken = on a very difficult task, which is to establish some sort of priority for e= nd users.=C2=A0 The dialog in the draft has shifted over time, and it is of= ten difficult to understand precisely what the practical implications of th= e recommendations are intended to be.=C2=A0 In the latest revision, Section= 4 is expanded to really delve into the nature of harm, and how we should c= onsider harm.=C2=A0 But there are few examples, leading to a point where it= is difficult to understand the implications of what is being said.=C2=A0 I= do like the economic incentive discussion, but I=E2=80=99m not sure whethe= r it is broadly applicable.=C2=A0 That should get developed a bit more.

It concerns me that Paul Wouters can take from this d= ocument that somehow enterprises do not address end user interests.=C2=A0 T= he example I always give is that of a business who has a regulatory require= ment to avoid leaking PII.=C2=A0 There are all sorts of toolsets that MITM = communications in order to protect=C2=A0the privacy of account holde= rs.=C2=A0 I think it would be useful for the draft to address this example = as a bit of a case study.=C2=A0 One can reasonably argue that an explicit p= roxy mechanism on at least one side of a communication provides for this, b= ut it begins to encroach on the so-called =E2=80=9Cend-to-end=E2=80=9D view= s (I put that in quotes because the end-to-end model is often misused in th= ese sorts of discussions).

I really like the compa= rison between the web and IoT.=C2=A0 I would go further: some of the very s= ame technology that is used to protect users on the web may in fact be harm= ful to users when employed by IoT.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99ll expand on this below.=

The most difficult part of the draft remains who = gets to decide what is in the interest of end users.=C2=A0 IMHO whether it= =E2=80=99s governments, NGOs, or whoever, there is no way anyone can claim = that mantel.=C2=A0 The best we have is rough consensus and running code, gu= ided by whatever input participants bring to the table.

I would suggest that the IAB go a bit slower with recommendations, an= d focus more on discussion, which is quite valuable.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s oka= y not to have all the answers, but it may be just a bit too early to make s= trong recommendation to the IETF because we do not yet see the whole board.= =C2=A0 I could definitely see this document being revised in an almost bi-a= nnual basis, given how fast the state of the art is moving.

<= /div>
Please see below for more:


On 11 Dec 2019, at 18:03, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:

So e.g. if we were to abandon the end-to-end principl= e, or advocate blocking protocols by default, that would be against the use= r=E2=80=99s interests. =C2=A0 If we were to advocate censorship, that would= be against the users=E2=80=99 interests. =C2=A0 This is clear, because an = act of censorship necessarily implies that something the user wanted to do,= the user can=E2=80=99t do. =C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s acting against the user= =E2=80=99s interests.

As we ap= ply these principles, one person=E2=80=99s censorship is another person=E2= =80=99s privacy control, as I discussed above and will again below, dependi= ng on how specific mechanisms are deployed.

=
Another example of the user=E2=80=99s interest is the user=E2=80=99s i= nterest in privacy.=C2=A0 You will not find a user out there who doesn=E2= =80=99t care about their own privacy. =C2=A0
<= br>
Professor Serge Egelman at ICSI has delved deeply into this, = and what he has found is that people are easily willing to trade off privac= y for convenience, and we know this to be the case with the Amazon Echo.=C2= =A0 But they are quite a bit more reticent when they learn that most proces= sing goes on in the cloud, or that other people are listening, or when it i= s their children or guests that are being recorded. .=C2=A0 This has ramifi= cations for the IETF in as much as our mechanisms are used to enable end-to= -end communication between Amazon and the home.=C2=A0 OTOH, exactly how muc= h information a service keeps once they have it is not something this organ= ization can impact.

Complicating matters, privacy = cannot be the only concern.=C2=A0 Let=E2=80=99s say that a law was passed t= hat required some local processing to address privacy concerns.=C2=A0 No ma= tter how you slice it, that harms the environment, requiring more power usa= ge, more memory, and more CPU, that eventually generates more e-Waste.=C2= =A0 If you missed that, it=E2=80=99s an argument in favor of end-to-end enc= ryption, but against privacy protections in our protocol suite.
<= br>
Looking at an industrial IOT example, the user may not b= e typing on the interface that controls electrical power or manages a dam, = but this may have far more impact to individuals than their information bei= ng captured by hackers.=C2=A0 How does auditing occur when we cannot reason= ably trust that an end device is secure?=C2=A0 The draft=C2=A0seems = to=C2=A0recognize this challenge, but I=E2=80=99m not sure that=E2=80=99s r= eflected in recommendations.=C2=A0 And to just add fuel to the dumpster fir= e, there is plenty of PII mixed in at certain points in some industrial env= ironments.

Given the above examples, one coul= d reasonably argue that we should be developing 3rd party authorization mod= els for encryption to protect both safety and privacy.=C2=A0 But if we do s= o, would that cause more harm than good when dealing with bad actor governm= ents?=C2=A0 I can=E2=80=99t answer that, and anyone who can is demonstratin= g hubris.=C2=A0 The draft can be misinterpreted, I think, to say, =E2=80=9C= if one person benefits and another person is harmed, then do nothing=E2=80= =9D.=C2=A0 Lives are put at risk either way, and while looking at the whole= board is hard, we have a responsibility to do so to produce least harm, as= suming we are well suited to even make a call.

You may find users who would like to violate = other user=E2=80=99s [sic] privacy,

=
I hope you will be pleased to learn that at least some research = (not just Egelman=E2=80=99s) shows that people generally don=E2=80=99t like= doing this, and in fact they won=E2=80=99t sell off other people=E2=80=99s= information.=C2=A0 On the other hand, you and I have a mutual friend who g= ot royally miffed when I drop shipped to him a gift off of the web.=C2=A0 T= hat showed my ignorance at the time that there was even a privacy concern t= o be had.=C2=A0 And so it is not a matter of liking or not liking but under= standing when that violation is occurring.=C2=A0 Your point about transpare= ncy is very apt, although the use of =E2=80=9Conline service provider=E2=80= =9D can be ambiguously interpreted: when we got into this, people in this o= rganization viewed telcos as a big threat.=C2=A0 The world has really=C2=A0changed since then, no?

Eliot
--000000000000694485059995b779-- From nobody Fri Dec 13 06:21:51 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73785120855 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2019 06:21:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nohats.ca Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mHB-r2SBDGz4 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2019 06:21:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.nohats.ca (mx.nohats.ca [IPv6:2a03:6000:1004:1::68]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB5F5120154 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2019 06:21:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mx.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47ZCXT5GydzDRm; Fri, 13 Dec 2019 15:21:45 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nohats.ca; s=default; t=1576246905; bh=O7gtYbXXTUQ9bIez7gt0pTF8GMCLKU5/Sr8dYslGtfQ=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=dXsSSNLxsiGObCbm5Lk1dOm/EMkazvPoSIWId5UoHKPUAnn0gmxKkmZ769rdqJ6oy ExrdNF5KcxGYBruO/I422gbq1X3b9JMbYqivd293ub79f8CeDiwwPR2NnAdN1mtKn5 SusVnsH82xRKum5KN7L22O7BaPqcD2AJYUtPIqmg= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mx.nohats.ca Received: from mx.nohats.ca ([IPv6:::1]) by localhost (mx.nohats.ca [IPv6:::1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HsZRD5YHdOl2; Fri, 13 Dec 2019 15:21:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from bofh.nohats.ca (bofh.nohats.ca [76.10.157.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Fri, 13 Dec 2019 15:21:44 +0100 (CET) Received: by bofh.nohats.ca (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6CA266007ADD; Fri, 13 Dec 2019 09:21:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bofh.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 688CE66AA8; Fri, 13 Dec 2019 09:21:43 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 09:21:43 -0500 (EST) From: Paul Wouters To: Eliot Lear cc: Ted Lemon , Vittorio Bertola , "hrpc@irtf.org" , architecture-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <31473650-0872-4EFE-A99C-E3DD4CDBC700@cisco.com> Message-ID: References: <157403781873.6404.6154827441040413193.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <01246A3C-31EC-4B7B-841D-F799EEFADCB8@mnot.net> <227662299.12784.1575991106819@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <429195684.13066.1575996064551@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <0C729385-1361-460C-9C16-E1BE1680A3E6@fugue.com> <1100636076.15285.1576072588087@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <4A034991-E5C8-4797-B6BF-9484BB2FA614@fugue.com> <31473650-0872-4EFE-A99C-E3DD4CDBC700@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-iab-for-the-users-01.txt X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 14:21:49 -0000 On Fri, 13 Dec 2019, Eliot Lear wrote: > It concerns me that Paul Wouters can take from this document that somehow enterprises do not address end user interests. Your take on what I wrote seems misinterpreted. IETF protocols deliver protections within their protocols for end users (or: end to end communication). Whereas the enterprise tries to take some of that away to provide its own set of protections for their subset of users (called customers or employees). My point was that while both the end-to-end and customer/employees targets are valid, the latter should not come at the expense of the former. The latter (presumbly) voluntarilly opt-in for the replacement of protection mechanisms. Therefor, the end-to-end principle of all users should never be compromised for the betterment of a subset of users. > The example I always give is that of a business who has a regulatory requirement to > avoid leaking PII.  There are all sorts of toolsets that MITM communications in order to protect the privacy of account holders.  I think it would be useful for the draft to address this example as a bit of > a case study.  One can reasonably argue that an explicit proxy mechanism on at least one side of a communication provides for this, but it begins to encroach on the so-called “end-to-end” views (I put that > in quotes because the end-to-end model is often misused in these sorts of discussions). The problem I see here, is that this business has the tools to do what it wants to its subset of worldwilde users of a protocol to do what it deems is best. But it should still not be at the expense of global endusers as a group. Do not weaken the protocol for this use case. That is the core of the argument I see returning at IETF, from TLS 1.3 to DoH and in the past with weake or backdoored crypto desires. I think this document does a good job ob describing what I tried to summarize from my viewpoint above and in my previous email. Paul From nobody Fri Dec 13 07:51:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45211120863 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2019 07:51:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A1VhTHl6Brb1 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2019 07:51:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from aer-iport-4.cisco.com (aer-iport-4.cisco.com [173.38.203.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F490120861 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2019 07:51:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=12083; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1576252261; x=1577461861; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc: to:references; bh=5cLGdSh1w7nNmjw+w0D4G52RZ8dzW9L5m5+cQqtPfFQ=; b=BjwNRjhl9WGk7D8YROB02GBwbILXISWob56gq8YRk1MTRRzNvsCtLhyl lOvJwNdBnmo+AzjbRbnIG3uRVMCpA7MBaijm7CGgaGC982Jvi4yejqcuD ZeRxN9RxigHeKzENblbrzRWn4Bfddw+zZm/T7u3ECBADGIbBHhmpgBQym E=; X-Files: signature.asc : 488 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0D7AADgsvNd/xbLJq1lGwEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?FAQEBEQEBAwMBAQGBfoNhIBIqhAOJA4gxgQGSI4YkgWcCBwEBAQkDAQEvAQG?= =?us-ascii?q?EQAKCMzgTAgMNAQEEAQEBAgEFBG2FQ4VeAQEBAQIBI1QCBQsLGBUVAgJXBhM?= =?us-ascii?q?fgwMBglcgrDZ1gTKFT4RqEIE2gVOIcoFtggCBEScggU5JBTA+hAMBCXuCUTK?= =?us-ascii?q?CLASNFiGJTJdsgjqCPIEZiQKJIhuOUotvpWWDIwIEBgUCFYFpIj6BGjMaCBs?= =?us-ascii?q?VZQGBWWg+EhEUm1lAAzCNaYFSYAEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.69,309,1571702400"; d="asc'?scan'208,217";a="20317235" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-4.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 13 Dec 2019 15:50:59 +0000 Received: from [10.61.204.232] ([10.61.204.232]) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id xBDFowEF015661 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 13 Dec 2019 15:50:58 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: <326C92A0-5F29-411D-99DE-7C785CF73EE7@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_06D0BF67-BA8F-4BA3-87C2-24D20F70A9FA"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.40.2.2.4\)) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 16:50:57 +0100 In-Reply-To: Cc: Ted Lemon , Vittorio Bertola , "hrpc@irtf.org" , architecture-discuss@ietf.org To: Paul Wouters References: <157403781873.6404.6154827441040413193.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <01246A3C-31EC-4B7B-841D-F799EEFADCB8@mnot.net> <227662299.12784.1575991106819@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <429195684.13066.1575996064551@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <0C729385-1361-460C-9C16-E1BE1680A3E6@fugue.com> <1100636076.15285.1576072588087@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <4A034991-E5C8-4797-B6BF-9484BB2FA614@fugue.com> <31473650-0872-4EFE-A99C-E3DD4CDBC700@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.40.2.2.4) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.204.232, [10.61.204.232] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-4.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] [hrpc] New Version Notification for draft-iab-for-the-users-01.txt X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 15:51:12 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_06D0BF67-BA8F-4BA3-87C2-24D20F70A9FA Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C5009F92-BF5C-4F58-A25B-219C428F3B64" --Apple-Mail=_C5009F92-BF5C-4F58-A25B-219C428F3B64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Paul, > On 13 Dec 2019, at 15:21, Paul Wouters wrote: >=20 > On Fri, 13 Dec 2019, Eliot Lear wrote: >=20 >> It concerns me that Paul Wouters can take from this document that = somehow enterprises do not address end user interests. >=20 > Your take on what I wrote seems misinterpreted. >=20 > IETF protocols deliver protections within their protocols for end = users > (or: end to end communication). Whereas the enterprise tries to take > some of that away to provide its own set of protections for their > subset of users (called customers or employees). You can also call them citizens, patients, students, scientists, = soldiers, residents, motorists, passengers, first responders, etc. > My point was that > while both the end-to-end and customer/employees targets are valid, > the latter should not come at the expense of the former. The latter > (presumbly) voluntarilly opt-in for the replacement of protection > mechanisms. Therefor, the end-to-end principle of all users should > never be compromised for the betterment of a subset of users. You can say, =E2=80=9Clet=E2=80=99s target the individuals accessing the = web=E2=80=9D, but recognize that in itself is a subset of individuals. = Our works are used in ways we never considered by people we never heard = of for purposes we never imagined. I gave you but a small taste of = examples of how that is the case. To his credit, Mark has recognized = these uses when he writes toward the end of Section 2: a person entering a room with sensors that send data to the Internet has interests that may be involved in our deliberations about how those sensor readings are handled. While such less-direct interactions between people and the Internet may be harder to evaluate, this document's concept of end-user nonetheless includes such people. And here=E2=80=99s the kicker: we want those enterprises to use our = protocol suites. For one thing, they=E2=80=99re more likely to get it = wrong if they don=E2=80=99t. More code paths !=3D better code, and some = of that code sits in devices that can harm a great many individuals if = they malfunction. Conversely, a more shared understanding helps to = advance the state of the art. Much of what we do is highly esoteric. = How many people on this earth do you think fully understand CBOR or = ASN.1? >=20 >> The example I always give is that of a business who has a regulatory = requirement to >> avoid leaking PII. There are all sorts of toolsets that MITM = communications in order to protect the privacy of account holders. I = think it would be useful for the draft to address this example as a bit = of >> a case study. One can reasonably argue that an explicit proxy = mechanism on at least one side of a communication provides for this, but = it begins to encroach on the so-called =E2=80=9Cend-to-end=E2=80=9D = views (I put that >> in quotes because the end-to-end model is often misused in these = sorts of discussions). >=20 > The problem I see here, is that this business has the tools to do what > it wants to its subset of worldwilde users of a protocol to do what it > deems is best. But it should still not be at the expense of global > endusers as a group. Do not weaken the protocol for this use case. In the aggregate of all of these use cases are global. I am not = suggesting that any of this is easy. I don=E2=80=99t think the draft = suggests that either. But that=E2=80=99s why they pay the IAB the big = bucks :-). I do think it means that we have to have a broader = understanding of how all of this stuff fits together, and not just go on = the war path when someone says they have a use case that you don=E2=80=99t= have. But that also means some understanding on their part as well, = such that alternatives can be explored without a conflagration taking = place. I don=E2=80=99t know if Mark thought about it when he reprioritized = architectural purity, but that statement can be taken to mean, = =E2=80=9Cdon=E2=80=99t just stick to something for because it looks nice = that way=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cjust because you didn=E2=80=99t arrange = the building blocks in some particular way doesn=E2=80=99t mean others = won=E2=80=99t.=E2=80=9D The web is one arrangement of those building = blocks; a field area network connecting traffic lights is another. If = it fails, we end up in a scene from The Italian Job, only it=E2=80=99s = ambulances and fire trucks not getting to move in that traffic jam. Eliot --Apple-Mail=_C5009F92-BF5C-4F58-A25B-219C428F3B64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Paul,

On 13 Dec 2019, at 15:21, Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca> = wrote:

On Fri, 13 Dec 2019, Eliot Lear wrote:

It concerns me that Paul = Wouters can take from this document that somehow enterprises do not = address end user interests.

Your= take on what I wrote seems misinterpreted.

IETF protocols deliver protections within their protocols for = end users
(or: end to end communication). Whereas the = enterprise tries to take
some of that away to provide its = own set of protections for their
subset of users (called = customers or employees).

You can also call them citizens, patients, students, = scientists, soldiers, residents, motorists, passengers, first = responders, etc.

My point was that
while both the end-to-end and customer/employees targets are = valid,
the latter should not come at the expense of the = former. The latter
(presumbly) voluntarilly opt-in for the = replacement of protection
mechanisms. Therefor, the = end-to-end principle of all users should
never be = compromised for the betterment of a subset of users.


You can say, =E2=80=9Clet=E2=80=99s target the = individuals accessing the web=E2=80=9D, but recognize that in itself is = a subset of individuals.  Our works are used in ways we never = considered by people we never heard of for purposes we never imagined. =  I gave you but a small taste of examples of how that is the case. =  To his credit, Mark has recognized these uses when he writes = toward the end of Section 2:
   a person
   entering a room with sensors that send data to the Internet has
   interests that may be involved in our deliberations about how those
   sensor readings are handled.
   =
While such less-direct interactions between people and the Internet
   may be harder to evaluate, this document's concept of end-user
   nonetheless includes such people.
And here=E2=80=99= s the kicker: we want those enterprises to use = our protocol suites.  For one thing, they=E2=80=99re more likely to = get it wrong if they don=E2=80=99t.  More code paths !=3D better = code, and some of that code sits in devices that can harm a great many = individuals if they malfunction.  Conversely, a more shared = understanding helps to advance the state of the art.  Much of what = we do is highly esoteric.  How many people on this earth do you = think fully understand CBOR or ASN.1?


 The example I = always give is that of a business who has a regulatory requirement to
avoid leaking PII.  There are all sorts of toolsets that = MITM communications in order to protect the privacy of account = holders.  I think it would be useful for the draft to address this = example as a bit of
a case study.  One can reasonably = argue that an explicit proxy mechanism on at least one side of a = communication provides for this, but it begins to encroach on the = so-called =E2=80=9Cend-to-end=E2=80=9D views (I put that
in = quotes because the end-to-end model is often misused in these sorts of = discussions).

The problem I = see here, is that this business has the tools to do what
it = wants to its subset of worldwilde users of a protocol to do what it
deems is best. But it should still not be at the expense of = global
endusers as a group. Do not weaken the protocol for = this use case.

In the aggregate of all of these use cases are global. =  I am not suggesting that any of this is easy.  I don=E2=80=99t = think the draft suggests that either.  But that=E2=80=99s why they = pay the IAB the big bucks :-). I do think it means that we have to have = a broader understanding of how all of this stuff fits together, and not = just go on the war path when someone says they have a use case that you = don=E2=80=99t have.  But that also means some understanding on = their part as well, such that alternatives can be explored without a = conflagration taking place.

I = don=E2=80=99t know if Mark thought about it when he reprioritized = architectural purity, but that statement can be taken to mean, = =E2=80=9Cdon=E2=80=99t just stick to something for because it looks nice = that way=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cjust because you didn=E2=80=99t arrange = the building blocks in some particular way doesn=E2=80=99t mean others = won=E2=80=99t.=E2=80=9D  The web is one arrangement of those = building blocks; a field area network connecting traffic lights is = another.  If it fails, we end up in a scene from The Italian Job, = only it=E2=80=99s ambulances and fire trucks not getting to move in that = traffic jam.

Eliot

= --Apple-Mail=_C5009F92-BF5C-4F58-A25B-219C428F3B64-- --Apple-Mail=_06D0BF67-BA8F-4BA3-87C2-24D20F70A9FA Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAl3zs2EACgkQh7ZrRtnS ejOeUgf/cIQ+3cGvnOBejjHtNm8E0F3J0NVLEm0BX90Er2DGJrRyhJUzPKuG92UU KdVrW1M93j+gQgaIqz4+CmOGCjwk+rWokZk8oMtqXJYHc0s/3LblTcgV2pHo6TMK Mc1CmCCroRWD+wQQBrmfNT628m/dCP6gJAZv5INgBQ/tXptMG7Lg1fjkNv9vHKKy twtAwk+HhWWXZrN9o1lQYKPUOf5yegQE6c4BPeJY9AMMB5PV/TxwMwa7t68W7NdK Yb8os5C99jWOz7l+cSx3BLeBoxiZUl4FkC8VDvMsvH8XO9ATn+J43orWHlAHFvky Cb+0zEY3vZvdn9a8q6jxakshwZfjcg== =Mx9D -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_06D0BF67-BA8F-4BA3-87C2-24D20F70A9FA-- From nobody Sat Dec 14 07:25:19 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3614412004A for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2019 07:25:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=elandsys.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZIl0Wxfw9E4X for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2019 07:25:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.elandsys.com (mx.elandsys.com [162.213.2.210]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B60712003E for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2019 07:25:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from DESKTOP-K6V9C2L.elandsys.com ([102.115.131.9]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.15.2/8.14.5) with ESMTPSA id xBEFP0jp012864 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 14 Dec 2019 07:25:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1576337113; x=1576423513; i=@elandsys.com; bh=y4BSM2q1WrMcZn0IMV1aJ5WjvcmnESK0q+dCetz84rQ=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=0TrpnztAx3aoiPkAGIgxWluhrQSKd0QuKezCyCemrguIdH3xmYb+1NLi9Ymx3iMAq YeO6tdPOLNyVJTmFZgkDI0NKr2nRLi+fPqikAHdl6MTEl5m4aNqgHVq0Iy4m6T0uFZ S7fPtdOhu+2aD1vs5c13Q8vt0njscebs/2J4XbGQ= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20191214065306.11c9aa98@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2019 07:22:27 -0800 To: Mark Nottingham , architecture-discuss@ietf.org From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: <326C92A0-5F29-411D-99DE-7C785CF73EE7@cisco.com> References: <157403781873.6404.6154827441040413193.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <01246A3C-31EC-4B7B-841D-F799EEFADCB8@mnot.net> <227662299.12784.1575991106819@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <429195684.13066.1575996064551@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <0C729385-1361-460C-9C16-E1BE1680A3E6@fugue.com> <1100636076.15285.1576072588087@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <4A034991-E5C8-4797-B6BF-9484BB2FA614@fugue.com> <31473650-0872-4EFE-A99C-E3DD4CDBC700@cisco.com> <326C92A0-5F29-411D-99DE-7C785CF73EE7@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] New Version Notification for draft-iab-for-the-users-01.txt X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2019 15:25:17 -0000 Hi Mark, There is the following in Section 3: "The IETF has focused on user needs since [RFC0001] ..." That is like stating that the IETF has focused on user needs since 1969. How could that be possible if the first IETF meeting was held in 1986? Regards, S. Moonesamy From nobody Sat Dec 14 08:35:29 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F1C5120105 for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2019 08:35:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AIEIDF1f4Qo4 for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2019 08:35:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x229.google.com (mail-oi1-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8CA7C1200EC for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2019 08:35:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x229.google.com with SMTP id v140so2455041oie.0 for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2019 08:35:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=IsYMIso7zPhFZdKa3oGeY7HgACuABT/jbeBuwouafww=; b=kjxOYnTg/4fQRncqQTUqCc4uBEdzpe43sZCMO1kIRFwP2UNzLGhjxepmGSR5kvbpzZ 5IEtdj9uXUS7vLYr1jEO0N78G4DX9lAqJ3wCEXuVDUwTm02myDfNgymqkAd5wxdEXJE+ dHEiTN/qyJ9KgVrTnITJuc9L60vftb5//HsWrZX3KnCH03Ddi39dPnHlXRWYo8Rmge3N tiYtnRh/mruHlZDZzopV38wR4S79icAA4JPTZN9QMZFTchSm+/dphm+nsJy7dGtKWi1F SI/RoqZ+RKF84Fhavcnmsc8PO6/bIacj3rpOTIL1jUvfEZ4wbCDt8XZuEpg1qGrdtGhi 3Lxw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=IsYMIso7zPhFZdKa3oGeY7HgACuABT/jbeBuwouafww=; b=dE49yKBQbVXjypuX5C/Stc4s6lH2oJXxk+jMyUdRCwoNeygpq8GISqfgwoPkipwUN7 wB4HwT8XOgSNcxYanMDkBDo1u3K9uLlUhgM06uyeLdY7dkAnil92A+hK7fxpV4nj2dat PJGRckOytJIqw5/HIaCT+2CA3t8eaouhLGkvhmZc0XjeBocHvm7vMkOlqkJ+zfMeT2de 2hpspcb7h++GnK2w6vD/z4pxytJ3zN2LcJjgySCF+T2wY0IRQ5BlaeRgu4nhXjqhQvGS moZnMPv5Q+QVI/gvr2F4KExHsqRYs3rSyl0wV6GjtXCzekqBnBfOT5wxzqnJo01pgFjC +dpQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXICJfJtPBaeJVOZ2ma9jC/YC/tyrcJlW41SGozcXa0cdg1dWqZ TSGto2rl+iNIRzoLVH/yDHIv4ErzC4IpW/5EeVJl0Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxbTkvtKsWcwox7ROVMQGRfdoXDl40hxab8Nj+w3rI1Pul22zk7jNJrjL4a0jlntXR1Z50ZX8kbZIXiSpSoPbg= X-Received: by 2002:aca:4b4a:: with SMTP id y71mr7867237oia.90.1576341323859; Sat, 14 Dec 2019 08:35:23 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6830:1155:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Sat, 14 Dec 2019 08:35:23 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <157403781873.6404.6154827441040413193.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2019 23:35:23 +0700 Message-ID: To: Mark Nottingham Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a74be90599ac90e2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-iab-for-the-users-01.txt X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2019 16:35:27 -0000 --000000000000a74be90599ac90e2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear Mark and architecture-discuss, I missed to put you Mark Nottingham on the addrese as I sent a message to architecture-discuss and others December 13th: it is about "focused-user system", "positive user outcomes" and "creative impulses of users' and architects' for evolutions". If it was inspiring... Regard, Guntur Wiseno Putra Pada Senin, 18 November 2019, Mark Nottingham menulis: > FYI; a fairly substantial update, based upon feedback. More feedback very > welcome. > > Cheers, > > > Begin forwarded message: > > *From: *internet-drafts@ietf.org > *Subject: **New Version Notification for draft-iab-for-the-users-01.txt* > *Date: *18 November 2019 at 8:43:38 am GMT+8 > *To: *"Mark Nottingham" > > > A new version of I-D, draft-iab-for-the-users-01.txt > has been successfully submitted by Mark Nottingham and posted to the > IETF repository. > > Name: draft-iab-for-the-users > Revision: 01 > Title: The Internet is for End Users > Document date: 2019-11-18 > Group: iab > Pages: 11 > URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-iab- > for-the-users-01..txt > > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-for-the-users/ > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-iab-for-the-users-01 > Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab- > for-the-users > Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-iab- > for-the-users-01 > > Abstract: > This document explains why the IAB believes the IETF should consider > end users as its highest priority concern, and how that can be done. > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > The IETF Secretariat > > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > > --000000000000a74be90599ac90e2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Mark and architecture-discuss,

I missed to put you = Mark Nottingham on the addrese as I sent a message to architecture-discuss = and others December 13th: it is about "focused-user system", &quo= t;positive user outcomes" and "creative impulses of users' an= d architects' for evolutions". If it was inspiring...

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pa= da Senin, 18 November 2019, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> menulis:
FYI; a fairly = substantial update, based upon feedback. More feedback very welcome.
Cheers,


= Begin forwarded message:

Subject: New Version Notifica= tion for draft-iab-for-the-users-01.txt
Date: 18 November 2019 at 8:43= :38 am GMT+8
To: "Mark Nottingham" <mnot@mnot.net>


A new version of I-D, draft-iab-for-the-users-01.txt
has been suc= cessfully submitted by Mark Nottingham and posted to the
IETF repository= .

Name: draft-iab-for-the-users
Revision: 01
Title: The Internet = is for End Users
Document date: 2019-11-18
Group: iab
Pages: 11
UR= L: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-iab-f= or-the-users-01..txt
Status: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-for-<= wbr>the-users/
Htmlized: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-iab-for-the-users-01
= Htmlized: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0https://data= tracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-for-the-users
Diff: = =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-iab-for-the-users-01=

Abstract:
=C2=A0=C2=A0This document explains why the IAB be= lieves the IETF should consider
=C2=A0=C2=A0end users as its highest pr= iority concern, and how that can be done.




Please note th= at it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the= htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat

--
Ma= rk Nottingham=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.mnot.net/

--000000000000a74be90599ac90e2-- From nobody Sat Dec 14 09:10:44 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BD8612004F for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2019 09:10:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7NWMz80fnfh4 for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2019 09:10:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x336.google.com (mail-ot1-x336.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::336]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D55FC120046 for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2019 09:10:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x336.google.com with SMTP id 59so3209146otp.12 for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2019 09:10:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=UPY3dvx0TzyIDqPWLPHW+h/2+Ej9wDQwab2KTMhkBuQ=; b=axSFdG3/MHNiU8ku9YzgXP07oFpBv83aemWqnvEffqKzkwB5/13SvGRMO5SdntVCdJ PJvfiaxYF09l2kddLlDZueymdvpgHCx0XkUotho0vCR1dRp1XSNTd5VsJUF8ncQdhrbs NvR/stGtYk7odhMepN9RwNUzXO4ENVtQ22p0J2Jo7ho2cV/EFLtL1uS+xzUmjLesvpsr JfNwM+71RClzy260aCPCjigb3pwNrbui0kLj3NO4B3W0B2Px3hCJPFKebc1WaTtsvRTl xMbQwxJ1rVKs2hp7v/HV1uNksnaIafuyrR6AQE34OcZWrcluetUdzE5BN8Dl/g5Nrsw2 Fwpw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=UPY3dvx0TzyIDqPWLPHW+h/2+Ej9wDQwab2KTMhkBuQ=; b=JRsp1B4cxBewE08UUTm2Ok3rFh39iB6VYTirmSkgfoOrOu/dx7NoyUCiAgqS8ZL/GG duClrzsZUGjxMpcVPrzbc7hKvTI1bc/Ry4xoAsStyW8GGjbbnq7gHgefi0Zdzjj9EGx0 AfwJ5W5l20qlp3PcpH1g8GAGbHNaBZugLgIV6nsampDpdaR5foVDHEK/k+sdVLdHVHwU byY9cRdOuqHpEYZ324zUxlXN9CoJ/qIBaLQiwHiQbat/eE0DQBq0GcrsWjgc+QiCmH+m ASL92VYSnJJYWWT1hd7iKj/1YCMsx2WS/D9OB78g/AaAV2L+Jj1sHyIZTqcG1V2Drz1A C0qw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWgtznAJdBiz4jfdczFaDjzuSZOFbiW4ooB/yyJ9l2UDSG3+hMT ie8CmyRB7QrLtD7ijrRoBJ3ab5TlYAWUxiPwKLXzFg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqw5mEAQL+PaiIC+1BK6QSAANAa+MG0MH9OGX/gHgh4bHL6qiPbZEvhIAF33vBlBkvr9B+Iy3PXX5/whiD1e0KA= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:338:: with SMTP id 53mr21716129otv.197.1576343440185; Sat, 14 Dec 2019 09:10:40 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6830:1155:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Sat, 14 Dec 2019 09:10:39 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20191214065306.11c9aa98@elandnews.com> References: <157403781873.6404.6154827441040413193.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <01246A3C-31EC-4B7B-841D-F799EEFADCB8@mnot.net> <227662299.12784.1575991106819@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <429195684.13066.1575996064551@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <0C729385-1361-460C-9C16-E1BE1680A3E6@fugue.com> <1100636076.15285.1576072588087@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <4A034991-E5C8-4797-B6BF-9484BB2FA614@fugue.com> <31473650-0872-4EFE-A99C-E3DD4CDBC700@cisco.com> <326C92A0-5F29-411D-99DE-7C785CF73EE7@cisco.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20191214065306.11c9aa98@elandnews.com> From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2019 00:10:39 +0700 Message-ID: To: S Moonesamy Cc: Mark Nottingham , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000cbe0d70599ad0e80" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-iab-for-the-users-01.txt X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2019 17:10:42 -0000 --000000000000cbe0d70599ad0e80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear S Moonesamy, Mark & architecture-discuss, Then should we say: "RFC 0001 is one of the historical references (or guidances) used by IETF in considering user needs" or any other way more or less similar...? Regard, Pada Sabtu, 14 Desember 2019, S Moonesamy menulis: > Hi Mark, > > There is the following in Section 3: "The IETF has focused on user needs > since [RFC0001] ..." That is like stating that the IETF has focused on > user needs since 1969. How could that be possible if the first IETF > meeting was held in 1986? > > Regards, > S. Moonesamy > > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > --000000000000cbe0d70599ad0e80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear S Moonesamy, Mark=C2=A0
& architecture-discuss,

Then should we say: "RFC 0001 is one of the historical refere= nces (or guidances) used by IETF in considering user needs" or any oth= er way more or less similar...?

Regard,

Pad= a Sabtu, 14 Desember 2019, S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com> menulis:
Hi Mark,

There is the following in Section 3: "The IETF has focused on user nee= ds since [RFC0001] ..."=C2=A0 That is like stating that the IETF has f= ocused on user needs since 1969.=C2=A0 How could that be possible if the fi= rst IETF meeting was held in 1986?

Regards,
S. Moonesamy

_______________________________________________
Architecture-discuss mailing list
Architec= ture-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discu= ss
--000000000000cbe0d70599ad0e80-- From nobody Sat Dec 14 21:32:38 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06185120025 for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2019 21:32:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7Qa8szA7PwC5 for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2019 21:32:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x331.google.com (mail-ot1-x331.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::331]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C260E120005 for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2019 21:32:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x331.google.com with SMTP id i4so4553831otr.3 for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2019 21:32:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=slSPKvIdFa6fKOb94U9cb/rfDpvTE3oDRwZKD9JkQKc=; b=WOTXMeRUh/LCC1PnrSByPcQuHVmIlNTF3Dq/dnnWFtvV7v0nwnT7L15sJgDI1jlS5k Eq57PxT1mqhO0eQkTq+2cyYC5Sy2KZ8ziHYRHdKb0/YgcaH/HAaDhOP7rkn5zy4aFlQr 6v28IlNAhoeV3Xm7RVTmBhpvyx7RNWCTJ4KoD5zp42S2uEqS2NnEoUyeZqvOtwFkPXz0 rE0bjsJhP7LcwbZqAkAPKwPG+EhekcbC1RsbEfFkBDjKEv/2xMW9s8w2LpIdeY59fr6K pOi0FHmtwfsgIPBAbBPdoiS14j0AdXi4j/vYUjMM3u0KRVQDeJHUqffIS+JcOss+DFiS TwNQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=slSPKvIdFa6fKOb94U9cb/rfDpvTE3oDRwZKD9JkQKc=; b=Pc4Ds/TrxX1IAkGym/iefB+gdw2CL/Ks2rKSpAxz22VXJpBWOr9baXWU9jrptMDzBx cWmew2sA5wagi5UrA/SnfWsQUXcx9v3VVlon8mb4uxtBGnToGcYhCGruRx3rnQQTRYHr eigCAzcbBBAOVaSB6gYvkf/QyA7c4ARvg20RBTlXOHXwJ7Vmn1DYJtsRpLRaQmvx2MDs Jk8I1h4tk/B13gCqftJEWcLZ2HP/Wxeie91wKpYjSKNt09Ii292J5htC+DgD+DUZ2AUj UJDIieUl3aMP8m7eNChT6jrCQaja7UkqJPM2GnJAkEoyIRfX+R01yNsGcyOSburXUZwx GACQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWmGKxu0vNtBaLZBYF9+Rl+Z/z7yIfevQOq20cazhGpDC+rNtqT luZXLsT2DoUpIvVRZhDNPmR/80vBQPVSehr9tlfEmw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwb+2GzusjLQc95cHYWvi9zt5a9zzpKIKdTHHLB6t3hQd5B9DcLR3QCIb+jidwSqVkf7XNvKvj0C1gs2336Of8= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:1741:: with SMTP id 1mr26025438otz.295.1576387953235; Sat, 14 Dec 2019 21:32:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6830:1155:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Sat, 14 Dec 2019 21:32:32 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <157403781873.6404.6154827441040413193.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <01246A3C-31EC-4B7B-841D-F799EEFADCB8@mnot.net> <227662299.12784.1575991106819@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <429195684.13066.1575996064551@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <0C729385-1361-460C-9C16-E1BE1680A3E6@fugue.com> <1100636076.15285.1576072588087@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <4A034991-E5C8-4797-B6BF-9484BB2FA614@fugue.com> <31473650-0872-4EFE-A99C-E3DD4CDBC700@cisco.com> <326C92A0-5F29-411D-99DE-7C785CF73EE7@cisco.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20191214065306.11c9aa98@elandnews.com> From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2019 12:32:32 +0700 Message-ID: To: S Moonesamy Cc: Mark Nottingham , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fb1caf0599b76b30" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-iab-for-the-users-01.txt X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2019 05:32:36 -0000 --000000000000fb1caf0599b76b30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear S Moonesamy, Mark & architecture-discuss, Would it be inspiring...? In relation with RFC 0001 (1969), taking a look at what was more recent than the RFC: Tim Berners-Lee (2002/2003) described how Internet works with the Web which was from having ethernet cables to publishing RDF data then identifying "hooks-identifiers" and "When the chain does NOT connect": "The Internet works because of interoperability between different computers, despite different hardware, operating systems, local language context, and software supplier. Users of the web sign on to the use of these languages when they use the Internet". (TBL, "Stack of Specifications") https://w3.org/DesignIssues/Stack.html Regard, Guntur Wiseno Putra Pada Minggu, 15 Desember 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra menulis: > Dear S Moonesamy, Mark > & architecture-discuss, > > Then should we say: "RFC 0001 is one of the historical references (or > guidances) used by IETF in considering user needs" or any other way more or > less similar...? > > Regard, > > Pada Sabtu, 14 Desember 2019, S Moonesamy menulis: > >> Hi Mark, >> >> There is the following in Section 3: "The IETF has focused on user needs >> since [RFC0001] ..." That is like stating that the IETF has focused on >> user needs since 1969. How could that be possible if the first IETF >> meeting was held in 1986? >> >> Regards, >> S. Moonesamy >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Architecture-discuss mailing list >> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss >> > --000000000000fb1caf0599b76b30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear S Moonesamy,=C2=A0
Mark &=C2=A0
architecture-discuss= ,


Would it be inspiring...?=C2=A0
In relation with RFC 0001 (1969), taking a look at what was more recent th= an the RFC: Tim Berners-Lee (2002/2003) described how Internet works with t= he Web which was from having ethernet cables to publishing RDF data then id= entifying "hooks-identifiers" and "When the chain does NOT c= onnect":


"The= Internet works because of interoperability between different computers, de= spite different hardware, operating systems, local language context, and so= ftware supplier. Users of the web sign on to the use of these languages whe= n they use the Internet". (TBL, "Stack of Specifications")




Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

<= div>
Pada Minggu, 15 Desember 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear S Moonesamy, Mark=C2=A0
& architecture-disc= uss,

Then should we say: "RFC 0001 is one of th= e historical references (or guidances) used by IETF in considering user nee= ds" or any other way more or less similar...?

Regard,

Pada Sabtu, 14 Desember 2019, S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com>= menulis:
Hi Mark,

There is the following in Section 3: "The IETF has focused on user nee= ds since [RFC0001] ..."=C2=A0 That is like stating that the IETF has f= ocused on user needs since 1969.=C2=A0 How could that be possible if the fi= rst IETF meeting was held in 1986?

Regards,
S. Moonesamy

_______________________________________________
Architecture-discuss mailing list
Architec= ture-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discu= ss
--000000000000fb1caf0599b76b30-- From nobody Sun Dec 15 05:14:52 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3493120033 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2019 05:14:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=elandsys.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XoL8IGIJriNJ for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2019 05:14:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.elandsys.com (mx.elandsys.com [162.213.2.210]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22F891200D6 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2019 05:14:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from DESKTOP-K6V9C2L.elandsys.com ([102.116.106.234]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.15.2/8.14.5) with ESMTPSA id xBFDEZqX005686 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 15 Dec 2019 05:14:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1576415687; x=1576502087; i=@elandsys.com; bh=0ZxEJpKAAgmTUDEXI38vIyDJgKxe5PSsyobAJKHtYUc=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=CPPuMfIvSYNkYr70XkkHa8Q98N79v4RV2PJY99080SZs/54kG1XJTu6/dIcXeaqST 0iyySzAELlxDU69VCUWmwlgUDVGnVZp95j8XecbDcz6cL4sgOWTyEVfyvsIknfs19B 9GW36hktZm4TlbaCqVaMV5PU2DuVe3+pvzG7nujs= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20191215050931.0ba0c2c8@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2019 05:14:00 -0800 To: Guntur Wiseno Putra , architecture-discuss@ietf.org From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: References: <157403781873.6404.6154827441040413193.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <01246A3C-31EC-4B7B-841D-F799EEFADCB8@mnot.net> <227662299.12784.1575991106819@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <429195684.13066.1575996064551@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <0C729385-1361-460C-9C16-E1BE1680A3E6@fugue.com> <1100636076.15285.1576072588087@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <4A034991-E5C8-4797-B6BF-9484BB2FA614@fugue.com> <31473650-0872-4EFE-A99C-E3DD4CDBC700@cisco.com> <326C92A0-5F29-411D-99DE-7C785CF73EE7@cisco.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20191214065306.11c9aa98@elandnews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-iab-for-the-users-01.txt X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2019 13:14:51 -0000 Dear Guntur, At 09:32 PM 14-12-2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra wrote: >Would it be inspiring...? I would not describe inaccurate information as inspiring. Regards, S. Moonesamy From nobody Mon Dec 16 06:27:00 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99E641200B1 for ; Mon, 16 Dec 2019 06:26:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.748 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.748 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JyW61F9OqFuv for ; Mon, 16 Dec 2019 06:26:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x32f.google.com (mail-ot1-x32f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 477B312007C for ; Mon, 16 Dec 2019 06:26:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x32f.google.com with SMTP id 77so9427538oty.6 for ; Mon, 16 Dec 2019 06:26:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=BoImilNlEbI480v5wLhENt3ual4S8A2XwAPnkOebwlc=; b=liX2LSpIc6/dtg7OpGQzhBxucJBRVRQ81/wBSXa9+lYqvJ1j7sJPAkoluTBmaMDRyW lMgmaPueVqL7XmhkZioysJoGQ2RiqwreagVvRsRIk7pbWHABF1oXgGHZGiEt7+wkItUd Jmt10cTi5CvHiVN3euYwmTZCkReZerjeWh5fSQtWC8vxySLmb2MeQi0N3kBdw38VD8qF XpCoDj4EfBS5mNUPq3s54Obd++C1ZQ/xF9RSURQR/MeS3VQ6ZzWbt1pfNNEWAUSiP/bE 7odzPMAaORtsf7kQ5btM3xlRptDuqWnFhQtwgMC1+GGLiCDNW7qH49LguTkqWvSh00iY AbnA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=BoImilNlEbI480v5wLhENt3ual4S8A2XwAPnkOebwlc=; b=Ehb43BW5FM5YtxK4PiDMOqOk02MYFqBARbhcC8Ssd7O9/GjXiO9AvvFUYqG3nrImlb YvKcOmHf2MY3eUPF98MH5QnxiXIZBvTK81TVwH1rsOv4U5SwIhLsUDwvpjeGmxHeoc5q P/Am9AnQN9rJzOQzO2HD0pyYDOHvb07gMgnkH1esvDJqzs92sN7UInZhGX76NAXgrM90 okRfaQudQf8rOIPcNoQpurOMG3Unq/wyM3TBPQmFulAmoEEJfx8KqC4kyLgwC1uKqqB+ PZkW1goZdXCayocbeF9RBLN5DVbVh0P6XLKHKxke0l/0VS35BiIUAOXW7DNvx3IRaqt3 p4OA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAU9GFPZsGEo06nY196S6tkIllgDo9+z8Z0UPr7BOcO+YSCQByPt Nql9TZVkCSemH5K5a/XP8MdJgfKHsh170blgZNFvDbhE X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyp31i9NMzMsDoFXTtEdjh9/csFSOQ3tgI7jW9e9Yhltpc7Bknwp595y+znimGfbSMnKvaVwrI2JlLwJ+187SY= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:10d5:: with SMTP id z21mr33126749oto.30.1576506415345; Mon, 16 Dec 2019 06:26:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Rajesh Puranik Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 09:26:44 -0500 Message-ID: To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000df73cc0599d3001c" Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] help X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 14:26:58 -0000 --000000000000df73cc0599d3001c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" help. please unsubscribe me from this list. Raj Puranik On Sat, Dec 14, 2019 at 3:00 PM wrote: > Send Architecture-discuss mailing list submissions to > architecture-discuss@ietf.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > architecture-discuss-request@ietf.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > architecture-discuss-owner@ietf.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Architecture-discuss digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: New Version Notification for > draft-iab-for-the-users-01.txt (S Moonesamy) > 2. Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for > draft-iab-for-the-users-01.txt (Guntur Wiseno Putra) > 3. Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for > draft-iab-for-the-users-01.txt (Guntur Wiseno Putra) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2019 07:22:27 -0800 > From: S Moonesamy > To: Mark Nottingham , architecture-discuss@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [arch-d] New Version Notification for > draft-iab-for-the-users-01.txt > Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20191214065306.11c9aa98@elandnews.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > Hi Mark, > > There is the following in Section 3: "The IETF has focused on user > needs since [RFC0001] ..." That is like stating that the IETF has > focused on user needs since 1969. How could that be possible if the > first IETF meeting was held in 1986? > > Regards, > S. Moonesamy > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2019 23:35:23 +0700 > From: Guntur Wiseno Putra > To: Mark Nottingham > Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [arch-d] Fwd: New Version Notification for > draft-iab-for-the-users-01.txt > Message-ID: > iyqt2WnkJacsJEzLntD-G6B5Xzxmk+RA@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Dear Mark and architecture-discuss, > > I missed to put you Mark Nottingham on the addrese as I sent a message to > architecture-discuss and others December 13th: it is about "focused-user > system", "positive user outcomes" and "creative impulses of users' and > architects' for evolutions". If it was inspiring... > > > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > Pada Senin, 18 November 2019, Mark Nottingham menulis: > > > FYI; a fairly substantial update, based upon feedback. More feedback very > > welcome. > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > > *From: *internet-drafts@ietf.org > > *Subject: **New Version Notification for draft-iab-for-the-users-01.txt* > > *Date: *18 November 2019 at 8:43:38 am GMT+8 > > *To: *"Mark Nottingham" > > > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-iab-for-the-users-01.txt > > has been successfully submitted by Mark Nottingham and posted to the > > IETF repository. > > > > Name: draft-iab-for-the-users > > Revision: 01 > > Title: The Internet is for End Users > > Document date: 2019-11-18 > > Group: iab > > Pages: 11 > > URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-iab- > > for-the-users-01..txt > > > > Status: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-for-the-users/ > > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-iab-for-the-users-01 > > Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab- > > for-the-users > > Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-iab- > > for-the-users-01 > > > > Abstract: > > This document explains why the IAB believes the IETF should consider > > end users as its highest priority concern, and how that can be done. > > > > > > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > > submission > > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > > > -- > > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/architecture-discuss/attachments/20191214/cb7c2bad/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2019 00:10:39 +0700 > From: Guntur Wiseno Putra > To: S Moonesamy > Cc: Mark Nottingham , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" > > Subject: Re: [arch-d] Fwd: New Version Notification for > draft-iab-for-the-users-01.txt > Message-ID: > < > CAKi_AEsreZP-otk2PzshMbSFAzJzy5JxDcs3EeDdBY3jXMMrXg@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Dear S Moonesamy, Mark > & architecture-discuss, > > Then should we say: "RFC 0001 is one of the historical references (or > guidances) used by IETF in considering user needs" or any other way more or > less similar...? > > Regard, > > Pada Sabtu, 14 Desember 2019, S Moonesamy menulis: > > > Hi Mark, > > > > There is the following in Section 3: "The IETF has focused on user needs > > since [RFC0001] ..." That is like stating that the IETF has focused on > > user needs since 1969. How could that be possible if the first IETF > > meeting was held in 1986? > > > > Regards, > > S. Moonesamy > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Architecture-discuss mailing list > > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/architecture-discuss/attachments/20191215/24f647b1/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Architecture-discuss Digest, Vol 57, Issue 3 > *************************************************** > --000000000000df73cc0599d3001c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
help. please unsubscribe me from this lis= t.

Raj Puranik

<= /div>


On Sat, Dec 14, 2019 at 3:00 PM <architecture-discuss-request@ietf.org= > wrote:
Send= Architecture-discuss mailing list submissions to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 architecture-discuss@ietf.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ie= tf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 architecture-discuss-request@ietf.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 architecture-discuss-owner@ietf.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Architecture-discuss digest..."


Today's Topics:

=C2=A0 =C2=A01. Re: New Version Notification for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft-iab-for-the-users-01.txt (S Moonesamy)
=C2=A0 =C2=A02. Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft-iab-for-the-users-01.txt (Guntur Wiseno Putra) =C2=A0 =C2=A03. Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft-iab-for-the-users-01.txt (Guntur Wiseno Putra)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2019 07:22:27 -0800
From: S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com>
To: Mark Nottingham <= mnot@mnot.net>, architecture-discuss@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [arch-d] New Version Notification for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft-iab-for-the-users-01.txt
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20191214065306.11c9aa98@elandnews.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii"; format=3Dflowed
Hi Mark,

There is the following in Section 3: "The IETF has focused on user needs since [RFC0001] ..."=C2=A0 That is like stating that the IETF ha= s
focused on user needs since 1969.=C2=A0 How could that be possible if the <= br> first IETF meeting was held in 1986?

Regards,
S. Moonesamy



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2019 23:35:23 +0700
From: Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
To: Mark Nottingham <= mnot@mnot.net>
Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" <architecture-discuss@ietf.org>=
Subject: Re: [arch-d] Fwd: New Version Notification for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft-iab-for-the-users-01.txt
Message-ID:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <CAKi_AEvHhWPJg1Gqk=3Diyqt2WnkJa= csJEzLntD-G6B5Xzxmk+RA@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"

Dear Mark and architecture-discuss,

I missed to put you Mark Nottingham on the addrese as I sent a message to architecture-discuss and others December 13th: it is about "focused-us= er
system", "positive user outcomes" and "creative impulse= s of users' and
architects' for evolutions". If it was inspiring...


Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Senin, 18 November 2019, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> menulis:

> FYI; a fairly substantial update, based upon feedback. More feedback v= ery
> welcome.
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> *From: *= internet-drafts@ietf.org
> *Subject: **New Version Notification for draft-iab-for-the-users-01.tx= t*
> *Date: *18 November 2019 at 8:43:38 am GMT+8
> *To: *"Mark Nottingham" <mnot@mnot.net>
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-iab-for-the-users-01.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Mark Nottingham and posted to the > IETF repository.
>
> Name: draft-iab-for-the-users
> Revision: 01
> Title: The Internet is for End Users
> Document date: 2019-11-18
> Group: iab
> Pages: 11
> URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ht= tps://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-iab-
> for-the-users-01..txt
> <https://www.ietf.org/int= ernet-drafts/draft-iab-for-the-users-01.txt>
> Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-for-the-users/
> Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https= ://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-iab-for-the-users-01
> Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://dat= atracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iab-
> for-the-users
> Diff:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0htt= ps://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-iab-
> for-the-users-01
>
> Abstract:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document explains why the IAB believes the IETF shoul= d consider
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0end users as its highest priority concern, and how that ca= n be done.
>
>
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >
> The IETF Secretariat
>
>
> --
> Mark Nottingham=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.mnot.net/
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/architecture-discu= ss/attachments/20191214/cb7c2bad/attachment.html>

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2019 00:10:39 +0700
From: Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
To: S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com>
Cc: Mark Nottingham <= mnot@mnot.net>,=C2=A0 "architecture-discuss@ietf.org"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <architecture-discuss@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [arch-d] Fwd: New Version Notification for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft-iab-for-the-users-01.txt
Message-ID:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <CAKi_AEsreZP-o= tk2PzshMbSFAzJzy5JxDcs3EeDdBY3jXMMrXg@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"

Dear S Moonesamy, Mark
& architecture-discuss,

Then should we say: "RFC 0001 is one of the historical references (or<= br> guidances) used by IETF in considering user needs" or any other way mo= re or
less similar...?

Regard,

Pada Sabtu, 14 Desember 2019, S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com> menulis:

> Hi Mark,
>
> There is the following in Section 3: "The IETF has focused on use= r needs
> since [RFC0001] ..."=C2=A0 That is like stating that the IETF has= focused on
> user needs since 1969.=C2=A0 How could that be possible if the first I= ETF
> meeting was held in 1986?
>
> Regards,
> S. Moonesamy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Architecture-discuss mailing list
> Arc= hitecture-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo= /architecture-discuss
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/architecture-discu= ss/attachments/20191215/24f647b1/attachment.html>

------------------------------

Subject: Digest Footer

_______________________________________________
Architecture-discuss mailing list
Architec= ture-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/arc= hitecture-discuss


------------------------------

End of Architecture-discuss Digest, Vol 57, Issue 3
***************************************************
--000000000000df73cc0599d3001c-- From nobody Fri Dec 20 05:33:08 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05D22120025 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 05:33:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.965 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.965 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_SBL_CSS=3.335, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MI8PcLoteq8G for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 05:33:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AC8F11200B9 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 05:33:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1DDABE2E for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 13:32:59 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X8vCUBAKadur for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 13:32:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 12454BE24 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 13:32:58 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1576848778; bh=tXh4svewGGIz6khpMyAI7g+zJ8bRYzvtKUDVu5LKzrU=; h=To:From:Subject:Date:From; b=IIAy8CsLP1Z4Z9G/p5XMiMkSmPtzNLXMV6JkXHBJRcooXnQjKVVtnZPWUSLfrZfMP pY6IcRbu/3JJ6v25AJvc5NEyF58MZDmFvM2il+Flc2/d3yKRChENneirfoVbaTI+Ue 2EGO6OtRUrzOQ2P2SNc7ZAXMOQFGsGp5Fr5J1Kd0= To: architecture-discuss@iab.org From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABtDJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPokCQAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxLkCDQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 13:32:57 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.2.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="rwzXSTWARQOjGaLSDYIGuvEQFtXnTyCQ5" Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 13:33:06 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --rwzXSTWARQOjGaLSDYIGuvEQFtXnTyCQ5 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="vCEiuqtajjSoLpt8AMHJpDlarBLUGRXhW"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: architecture-discuss@iab.org Message-ID: Subject: possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience --vCEiuqtajjSoLpt8AMHJpDlarBLUGRXhW Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------06624B2E011235474D29D7B9" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------06624B2E011235474D29D7B9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, The IAB are considering starting up a programme on Internet resilience as described at [1]. We'd love to get feedback on that idea, the text at [1] and to find out if people would like to participate and what topics you might suggest be considered (or even better, what you'd actually do work on yourself:-). There's no specific deadline for this, but the IAB will consider this further in the new year, so if you could take a few minutes to share your thoughts on this before or over the holidays that'd be great. Thanks, S. [1] https://github.com/intarchboard/resilience/ --------------06624B2E011235474D29D7B9 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9t lyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQAB tCFTdGVwaGVuIEZhcnJlbGwgPHN0ZXBoZW5AamVsbC5pZT6JAj0EEwEIACcFAlo9 UYwCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQWrL68XsXK+qG CxAApYHWYgGOIL3G6/OpkejdAkQoCVQAK8LJUSf6vzwost4iVfxIKcKW/3RqKNKk rRl8beJ7j1CWXAz9+VXAOsE9+zNxXIDgGA7HlvJnhffl+qwibVgiHgUcJFhCSbBr sjC+1uULaTU8zYEyET//GOGPLF+X+degkE/sesh4zcEAjF7fGPnlncdCCH3tvPZZ sdTcjwOCRVonKsDgQzBTCMz/RPBfEFX44HZx4g1UQAcCA4xlucY8QkJEyCrSNGpG nvGK8DcGSmnstl1/a9fnlhpdFxieX3oY2phJ1WKkYTn6Advrek3UP71CKxpgtPmk d3iUUz/VZa0Cv6YxQXskspRDVEvdCMYSQBtJPQ4y2+5UxVR9GIQXenwYp9AP2niv Voh+ITsDWWeWnnvYMq07rSDjq0nGdj41MJkNX+Yb2PXVyXItcj5ybE3T2+y3pSBG FEZYJGuaL4NwtBJFMOdOtBmUOPbetS2971EL3Izxb7ibOZWDwexv+8R6SWYfP1wV N3p46RyBQuXqJV8ccE11m6vtZTGSYgnLUUFZMRQYH+0hwuYe0T3AA18xDdSYsa8v ovCCd3l5S4UNzIM2PMChqGrEzKapUpZg7+8ACcxRU3b9Ihd7WYjJ+pQPCoWYKozv tEvenbNpE/govO/ED3B14e+R2yevRPjRrsN7PJzSf15fQLuJARwEEAEIAAYFAlo9 UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLrSwf+MIHbFRQ4O5cmLYR5sIByWelN3SuRN/gW8rpKo9Ok Cz6An8uV/iCXy5tNMLzzi0BFl8f22DwBcC5qy9qnlIAdogWam1qWoTAoAD8veEqm uKhYrqJsCcAyNrKYmK0hP3rpHxx1LySDmKYXmw/8qtBXKHTouMm+5tSsznhykRMT AAr2p7PSaHgo+hIVaW/rKSspHjDhhZS+G9mtOZad1IH29M6G1Q1NCO0Ywe8krKLQ IAQlFxtgvOqpPOZNzeKBa/+KbE8TGgMWrkOhC8OeEM5PVzdDhlhD9kPzB/pCKDF5 DofJ/ZRqnDpbKPQ0bsW38AOig3kOc0A27awiBEw3urqR1YkCMwQQAQgAHRYhBH4X CgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJbtyScAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSI/oP/0A9J9nrnBMq Zpm857lfYWw+rshLK+tyeP4OQeOqnDFvs9jePpcyJLG3DF2r6VbVKPQq+AE6Uf5h cJBDEN6BjEhRPSbLcqG3A1cz/nNwm8rPmNp+oKhmaBBQGxwciMLmzgynsDydnjPp MyEs04zvsbsl4vrp2095o105l8KcrrxQrioFjbwveGwHQK9bxJKhx9D+gIk+MouB ur45UDKTZkMZrr9FGrtkyXCGAxvKdcNC5Oa8z9sj1rcUJfG/OpVAMWhArdlZbFUQ yoX6pU2Zb1CR2qpWAVerGSfBhmfCyStjARqaKxlftjO+Bj3Jj73Cr5eqej3qB5+V 4BCsPjr4RLvVbYUCPsRdxWc+nBLlfVYkRURu21g1hFm5KFPjgUkyo1s4vjUOY8Dy I+xLGF7f/IhUBG6l+Vswhpwu7ydalZkeFiPx5xna5NfbEYxvsIf71DvipGvIOaHv X4egWoFgm8n/9c3rcMxJtpwHPSsUt5dgLsyu6VE0IbvOAc3dN7CWJ355DVFJq9Zg 2YVf0izSpyyzJeGsgkfjW6xpmdvZxuT2UcN4BTcm6vYqueASGrb3lfhzC5gpeVsc /MoSjTS65vNWbpzONZWMZuLEFraxWJzC0JrDK3NCd0VN3kstqGkVbUIiYOnUm8Vu 4zoVMLlGWzHLIGoPRG2nRezn1YyNfyb5iQGcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8 pK1gE7QL/ApC5P68W5DrI1787WJVZv1u4t/g39vTr7Xer3UMTVQg10vpa7pmqOGh jIDzDMg3Pe3K3M7fVzfAlUA1qw6ne4RCueVoRKpubeF4AlYbMr0K6hNCPjt5uAxm bBVuejKTc6pru5rv5gKL0nDbr+Snft5xt7juBLSSimw0/41sZnkjCxo9rF/RA/v6 +uWyK171RKmsEYu8fFtw1eqUNt/Xj792TUixE3pxXheNtQtZGk/9P3W83ChhG4Fh 5EQsn0pIh9wZIAbMRLpgRKyW87fWHZC8/YH8h7afarvn9Thl5pFUldCe22mNJj6K LChn2aEHQd+PdY1GBpZEcmNEUPuovwzatM0h64hCzTm41eDqRfihZVBT7TbfXQnv 8rywa42Mk756RGzzEZcQEhwQXZcMQUfxIQQ2VyJo0zG36VdZTQF7TF/4Lz7/3cJ5 6jOIm+dwPXtu+C2wAQuD4USOLt4JWPYpqzDfHYJIND/497P9Z9SuQeahr2ez3DRB g3qsHEjBV7QyU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsICgyMDE3KSA8c3RlcGhlbi5mYXJyZWxs QGNzLnRjZC5pZT6JAkAEEwEIACoCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwEC HgECF4AFAlo+o3cCGQEACgkQWrL68XsXK+qO0A//ZsfQzyXrZlu/eEV5jU620yeO M3P7SW3C3UQYdCgZ/TlvxGgKow5oDSXgjMiUyq9csGqbPBxlDYSxFZHNeDVKYIuP 2ZK24tw5k6duTh4+sFwUualTMlcp0zBCIzn3hRcsRvuPKHfl5+6oOi0+xqx3jX/s /69L/fvHmdSKet5LIUAxoYaZkTCruFrPWb01tgAl5JExWkhmCY98iD+EeiIMAWBj Mw1xV+p0uCwNbN6XDzcToK7wsm+tAIiWUy3DpP60a6WbVwdV0HNt2WZq5U5Jdh2k 4S+sN2CnYk4tTW7jHjsWarV3FLISCOObADZuB7ljU4kYfdwZ+WzenXY4LGlxGQSl AblGjwZe4EIkCXAJUtzJhoFUuGaF/PlWjxqV3UFRcgTERZTijguVyREre8GNERNg vDxZvuXssEjvz9X5JfcIZDIJpdzhLiEIj9noUbfx1SzB5KDPQj0O7elMHa1671/r wWcpGr/MfVPTOik4H7F8rcVJelceZTzC4tvya7M+jM4fyFWWt8Y4atTixUiP7U9o 4uBZCQ0GzvsmFA4XLqn2pA5rVizMXnGbGOjufAP/efEJ4ul3qvjYe8ye8DXEDjKA xo/tuHYtk19XCi83QzFhWls5TT+XQeVTMEvVqo9Wek8yoxo67qvLKKqIcG9givQd 8MxYNAbNYgSPtkbhZ8SJARwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLzHAgAlWT6 NXEGtw/r1miKNGcopzvzILQ9oB8rKI9U9EL6tOf/y2V5oYee/GyQDb3ZdoPxxYYc Jf+RyiH1nMoqUIZiZJaf3bJXinDZ5+AdfE++UR2NBvqaNyC6u3r24jo1B/sagKbY tWgsYtRqHLD4IWi37MZrVyjBuF7u14Q07+uhjq6mX2O/tHpCYw/Q82tbeTRPyUf1 WQOAfD1kfBpW9PvAva5Iw9FWeXpCXRzwxnCZhYfGfqtuSw6CPBYLdbikqML6FZ7E DuTBb/8um1wK7Y9bgeIQC+CYjhYB5RXa1tDJRab2Js4luCvSR0w/CgHw26293tlv e2Q6UTrmHxP5U22DlokCPQQTAQgAJwUCWj1QMgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkK CwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6tJpD/4rrILH+meP07vrx8wW5eYuqCiP GYnh/CXxIF8eLrfbe5d4QRgtq+w6UeQPMyzKRIRiCoBXB2oJLBZHyxBPxZlg33dT MrEGn8QWKx2iNuz9rZMXyOSWFetuO01d/aUPd5BnbLbIyK5of8xCQlXM6KH8bc+9 gQ7edR9mfLTdvBf2FR522hg8BRBM1imKc3vO8v39+qIHHRjuiwxBBCAOhHtHRsZX ripS0uFA07dM46Oi/E8osjx6fQt/lH5z/PN+2adxYSrLSAXfr1oD3RxYNhuWgyGF L64/VCQb1YGjf0Z5MBPnWm9jgUoOY5K9eNSS0L83WeJjlF5+Q/WOgB+rb49Prm2D Feo9+S9f2V53Llz1WIspXJg6f+n9lmHE94MfQj1GAHCzI0FeL19lvM+LhD8jJSCb hrC3+yobyy/AUOs5Z3E+njjX1FF/VCVAs6iOa6i+XG+Y1hh3ir2y1kckJ5auT10M SU8GEZu9ayU4M3o3N9yxOjaoP0NuQ4MMLL/n/u4u94AeZaHPNBXn/hVfVRRmpRXt GKvJtFAEppGEYezB+bLKIm6XlpPkhnwYzleLZ7AMEco2C6QM8QPB3g3JpS3sqRhA 5rEP4lL16BmijmF+CHoPE/zwgKZbKpyVDqvIW5IDgvfIC2X4pbZDRvGIUKaGSB4+ ksZgUUnNyvfQr2p7jokCMwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJb tySbAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSeKkQAJm44jt1kwHgQgeDBKdjdvl0AjE0xVEQxriZ6lP/ l//34YT0auFfzsYIrChSpQXAEtobBAr4Ohw1Us+BZe+H5P8vm6LRuPwozC3SjwfX 4Iec8+9ot6tIVg4sbedDSgb/CCFVjsmIGcQ1P73JLJTBJ6mxYCV/gn3QC6bwDOFo 7kD9FDHCjRN8XfhHQ4Q9cYyt06uF31qG/aumgWYC9geCGgAwiHgwxNYb9GoJ0iZj CROwbYvLTcQgsVUW2bTmsVR13UVKDsdl02sRV7qcVYW6R0a3Ra8KudX+nt25H5DR Gd382KZ5W8pydsy/viTvD9z6v0ulChBYxAedIvGIClrhbxlLEPmIg4ImVOLGqsUg Vm32J95WOjEkk4PEZ12xSDBtwhSJqmJNboWlfmw43KdIbY8zNhffIO3N6O7FsdGx mqyHeLoTpqY+ySVUPpbuyW8ujnI/J//+6hdTZ9dQsEJQlWngKuWOQ5ma58MPSN88 zllsqhZAFQjNxqnkSzL6ZQ+v/jvuRRe16B80AeO55DsmbWsMv/YLLD1mSi7+Khy2 EtMBhgojWwrGMvdLN6X3mnzNJEscYyLxM9tSk+iySP2sLthK0BVgpAzBSdaf/ezI z60P+neHDzteNFf8Mn7lmgYk1amvZoJ29s5+n2HwxyRL5dVMyMdyQmntubbctfqr Z0tIiQGcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gnCYMAJY4FeIYjlIXGghFWzsB 4fYwK1+iaFpU3fSto5qcrqVtVPjXpwqczqBWeXGyQxiB0kan4OVAXydIeaP8EAuF CA7paP3s9STLJBO3KurkwyRkPW5zo0X7xVqaVToRsX2Ul98KVJoHYQD1KdezEtwl vpNwiiBr42AYR751Vm6JBVAbQXuFpB3c8bUV0OkkRxNFtL8/2PieHar58n5dntGk bPlPkztahsFqktgacIgXHX5vaT+7YeeZ1DWLOYjGO0wNhkOSeroCmxwJUikU7joB p823L7r5KfpqWTPpSCzVstQKZUGmmoE1qCswY/Ud5wvp9SccpIILkRXj0rZRtfnE 5MpL3hjmtNzfDd9qIsJtBJlSB2hZwAsVm1l+EWN9hG3tqyA43niUMy2n6q690of3 berSiQ+kvY/aC9Hx8I+bKzOV9/J2VUTqfaPZa4Uy2rVX5Q2p69n/PMj7mEer0rCL 3j9V16J9c+s0BSkXoKdtYdB0TWVhBgUybd9qtYcwHWvhP7QuU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJy ZWxsIDxzdGVwaGVuQHRvbGVyYW50bmV0d29ya3MuY29tPokCPQQTAQgAJwUCWj1R WgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6jsc EADEcB0WQEZn2AkrzDs1RhL0Lp6cZi0BigofkbcGfdhJyMSs19C0dhvncrAFClVI 6/Udw3yFtDyYtOCf2W3M3A1K6/RfEizCLzTsdFIhni9gOJLlUpXViQtgrlstjk7h qVV3Ooz4BlCqS4cG7rfqf4LQQPpTAuFUEV9I28FBUB2irqC+v4gTysIgpMw0bA1y BU9sX5jE/tRkzqnuzZrkwiobDtRFJ9qp+7O2JtcY4EsVtLAsaodJKc5cF8R4OvB1 n66vxxcgg9Eh4JNWZ47xsaCmAGo1Bcb2jIY35OtgAL7gCGLRSMKTtAaPy1/fEgIq hCljJ9x40Fkn/3r2BX21WC9HFSPFTBz2RluLRzxdgxOrkYK8EiHUPoE5b1AEzZKw 2AbeXfr57f5zYsN3IqfbQLUjMYtUN1wK3Pjb+idD972wyXMWt8uOzlI7b9Ocu+nY m2whBfJv9Pmp3QYTmPz+LB9lH65VNVUSxSXVr5iWXO3qx1HtEiGEqkporMQCTh3T 5Ud3PvMSRBFFKNs9WhJ/Lxz+SV30WLwG6dr5mQqlzAhb4Phc/zekZyXRdS/oDKrB LUucS36O//49JeyRi1QvOfxnfmIqRIAf/k3PoYJmTo5E82//r5Qj3YGlRu78ba0H Arxs+ACD6AnEHHcbswpbtVEKYzlSu0Ar0Dc7vRWM/IyQdIkBHAQQAQgABgUCWj1S oAAKCRAvPIc2gF+NosIsB/9f/29FNla3BJfGIEIDnhrqGD0i9bSa89SqBd++uG06 TQgW5wsqtNcrwn81yZTq6XE6i9VtD4GKfqC0d4KZJr9bnbeD81cI64VOdL8zJWJs 0vj5EIXCobKyX74Kb4uePUyZqwT2Q74I116u/HwA9/FXsPo5isbh4ZqD4t0VHpWk mfq1FPT9a/JPyX46qKqB2Fce/7Qy+SQP1NfkuUlbhUH/JG9aSSYvk3lznNiH41x9 M+FDlL106itXOubrl3oi2fT3fsSedq7uzt+IV0DQEeNaoQAUuwEhdB8IWOMqN2wo DjGVKJftfsSWY9ilZrnDBNDrp0vRqcx33LUMkIw4d7iBiQIzBBABCAAdFiEEfhcK BFyEz0YOK3mgEO952f2DUxIFAlu3JJwACgkQEO952f2DUxJjuw/6ApHSsVTWD4a0 H6FJ23A9Ftpy+aXZ4vYlzkSrfsn2ECrEfK3lXQh/uzwjJUDYZeB1/BQsFZtcYNQO JSSHbQ49BFRLwb1J/wBZG4bbmrkLxnNbKDKQvzxEpclkMW0Dj0J6o7kGrmzIGGrh B+JJN99AcineHRug8ZSFIERRCmigxdhAKU0BFD7P+5HNHltSL3DF1c2fFOf2JrgB KVoE+9RhMZjWNbYetFFLCkjXb5Rpay9zeMm1DxfSTGAnuOwUXW6qq4hnl5+VC/48 ceDZElLLfu7RQUZv44pkSTOWZs+iQoJiHMFHk9wPqyB2Vok1yJ2a2j27WhXrJlPw nZbgJO5RyWDG3p/eVmpl5Uuc2dsfIpR17KnAuWpghK6V+cyFncDoGCl/YG2Mvool sW08FiZh3Ej4dnJjj25TZkeFG74JJDXLvMYpJfSBGnmETv4Dhcm2xPqVMuFuL1qJ lMbVLrMo2GXeo03OzNyvbs+u8WLIaGm5hC7N1CXY8wZs4jo6OJ/expvnc07dEuws 4zT3AiWv3nIouWReRStZy9QkavDocqbyPmilcdPCYk4BsOlzpwwO74hNG7iyl0Kd AlwTxGQ7y0rJou6HYa1TmRhIEr3vKvlW+JfUUrqtjXgsuacTXo4+Ira2JUErL2cY zQMq1j4r1ZyhFnuz93s7Rsx/Nw0+0YuJAZwEEAEKAAYFAlvFx+UACgkQajsROTyk rWCJqwv+NLVPE4sD4sDA2/6Ek7UsRIUkg+S39fhqWsLc4rtw/mDunv8Un61I3K04 fZ2Ry4nF9hZM0a710UvXFbStvrzRJO3EAAcdJR9LTCd19e8UeruQbIee3YT91U4N kC9JMpecfq62/teOAU2e5P3fWYaLs5ZX7zCLwWuBcW2l3SyoljQczM85HhJ3XHm+ FnwQ6D9xRle+lvWTcuC9d1yAyUb8IOospcL2lJTmy8e3r79R24hPlSB4LDe0wEN8 AXbagrcAQZjwyaHyWxjJbTwZ0b43WGdfIqZ1ElOeoffbketPGRmWvx5xUvb2ALFB BdETzV270gs5XDJgJ1SIIKOyDADxwvroTe2jD8C/841eEql5QSow3s/U3zRqk3mt tto8Qw/DN71aeh6dmYSsvd2UjsHw/vofOPRBGxZLEkKTEvMnhmMW9hiKPkPia+Qg evYE020qpKSxLEdWA8nprHwxmGiDNesCfXSC6vm1qfyj5g8HzxSckq9ZaMhKMCo7 vxflUEDuuQINBFo9UDIBEAD6DdHQfMav8OXfhjTteoarOrlJTSdci727xiezGPuB HmpvceBRZgRasdbaMc4HJee+R9+5x/nLPCuy/DxDyIjwIUeJNgc+l7LjI9WfpHTD 8U4xxjvR5Mi7+ToQQUOUNuzT0O0pyuxP1uY3RehHEhOVfBZO59ipSeZL5iQC6T5M sK1SKfs51pLa5ToC1rc8tBJ4zZmxRAyZiYc/AH2uZ/6rYjTTkAn1DVI9DYo2D/zE 4bGjXdJW5pKphFB2lX3dG4I7ODi+5e1H6A/QpCu6z8/ZkIQ+9T1xcX/YwiFeA7Pb TuW/eITbMbI1eV3+fyym9aT7Rsflmp31Zxtr+sZwGGZf00ooMBFmqOS//NUQ/Vf3 vDUew1h5QU1yDaWT3NApvi+XWPH9TPy6TMfZA2FThHf11sX/gDBa5JWQZbptPEcm oazpiKZt91CrFPOaoXDPck/Q61dfmr/oPikfByYnASIM3OwEuXqyQ9JDRfKrem5r +oA/wxWb5jELElAhOpnyqMMvOh7uz1foUssL8MAv2TGXmxpVJ8Nu4je6wf96Z22f Q0D38zud+CKH3bMP3ayXXJBcdPoENrzFbWP5FTg/4TTDJ3vOAHZR5iCunYghx8b7 Ffa4UbkwlD+dh8GiIAtvT51Ac0cO0Wc0Zjc57zPUz1zloMbf+zb1Bsn7DuEQoqj1 gwARAQABiQIlBBgBCAAPBQJaPVAyAhsMBQkJlCYAAAoJEFqy+vF7FyvqrC8P/1tF 6TeR83xD6MasqXyrBjwcLmziaF0Mlkj8k/YUiZ/knb53n97xQnh9yxPv0TT8Wpfd n3BmvqGyh8+ouHX9jMOxiRkMdNhIauVYY/8jmRfBSYWcFkfMzdYasvdLtmYJgx25 2HKTFdeOrszoOjWjEzwmh+tca3AFMu/nB++/KAmi5UJV7zsZ7uYJ5jm97LV5SLjN JIXXM+lHqCDrjDaDhNczmq1LCRlU6/WDjvkuwaVhZG4lXxMDrvKnXMkjseQ2oKjw rIdfQM86H1z5J31lfhqop+of0cimcIsBgSCPu+h96LHuAzeRBCbDKeqrfZtAZAGs okRina9947fRWxXHh3O66ILmXKNRxxWbDkPvYnQWUat8SbSTDoPWrDIGDRIAypqY o3pcN2OE0C1chqgDZQxkr+9kYZQpupOAN2TR+fM7JvbO9coKI8Uqog8CopoMeDQk d0YjcqlB1E0svODHTzcSoRzogDBYDqNLP7qVkNXpcOAXSVioBgiSDf7o5RdS/qmU yXBIeq6I5z8xBcd+BQ/n/9Frkm6K7IKP3ngUP4wEoiPx5ZE5+fPIScGmVUcZIMhk vMvem9XXh1yyhqN14gfjmLwPGdWbrgG8QUe0s2WeWIyss6uTiyF+ZbJSo2XOKVc3 YFMVUUfgyudqAV1wWdZinUk+H3pkqOKoHAy/8fST =3DYzQY -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- --------------06624B2E011235474D29D7B9-- --vCEiuqtajjSoLpt8AMHJpDlarBLUGRXhW-- --rwzXSTWARQOjGaLSDYIGuvEQFtXnTyCQ5 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAl38zYkACgkQWrL68XsX K+oMiRAAtCwPMQa4MAGxr/YSa5ch6tDyotWnStoKT3UV5J8BEXypPGQPUnXTtEbZ CWNOIj90hlNmbv1nWXvaikVYrO950clxIHdAHZ1FQ5WtR7zDH7c6bbL5vO+SoHc4 ljBWJVKkbdowNd13cf5FzD+p0HhVu6yO/HIJVX16vzVJrjeAUYdBYNDdF6KHaLMW 5Y07IBnYu24X2nP35x+eqX6kVioMVd2dCMqDq6bjieV8riR/n/X3mxHpAu526HPx PZhuVeKsP81EwRbAJ4/FiMOZaERFi8qDotkzuxlsroomkAyWbpw79YzDkfBIv+g8 jwslKQFoz0PL3HJBiX9RGgBasPtqkXuCvln+Q/mXjzKrA5QCCKMwb6NT4f2vgleR UROEHipjOoYvmkPZ3M6JUkRGYDNXGaksUdFqQ3sfit7nHaBeiReXopxxgkjrZVwc Tm4MR5XIbu1jYMNpslbWFcuxVf/wWeife6XJtyRV5i7f8ISPd8owNv2gZ7roh21k kw2tYohx8el7qM8LfsOEzrXEEA2vZhFo78xXgHMpA2SIVmT9r1SMdT+WvjJvkbsF uXAbMQFymN0ZGBbHYA7ZdGfMM46wj8KZyp1xUExwTTyacSL0nKq/YNDHkrRQMO60 Nar3q29i9BFVL2V+WbL0BNMWZ2GBBmulHpWf+PMqOW0CeIA3s98= =V73z -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --rwzXSTWARQOjGaLSDYIGuvEQFtXnTyCQ5-- From nobody Fri Dec 20 06:07:27 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21EB21200B9 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 06:06:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.888 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.888 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=viagenie-ca.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8yF7r8NVVAyt for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 06:06:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x836.google.com (mail-qt1-x836.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::836]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A655120128 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 06:06:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x836.google.com with SMTP id d18so5584684qtj.10 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 06:06:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=viagenie-ca.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=y+aE4yAwUZockxD/68A0J4qiN8RdZ2shUeDCQ8MhRyc=; b=DHgXJBhGXLMkiFT6GBs/Y1x8zwH1D2GG8Q96L9ZIVSqi2BxrLe1jzsLLZ0awdn80nz 9NAv2oaWemg9hH7xfPONZ5exJSKxKuXlgFYqffES51qVsmiUYdcKHfLbp1OW2cJe1CWv mEFFSrhyiJOXB16OWSkGDs9WpG9QkfntECIA5ADF5JDTflBB3W+9YuPAr4+U9Ok92n3t CCPNMkd344hKeV77i9Omxx2TuxWxt5pokvgWSJz3DdYAIpI+Ytanyi7t8RI3rSeW13rY njxY7CBkbduKXAC0XQxiu60MJHxV/FyLsCTqgBtwaq2/gpmGzrYnlS3V3fHjlUpJ8mlf HjnQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=y+aE4yAwUZockxD/68A0J4qiN8RdZ2shUeDCQ8MhRyc=; b=NYvPpKZ4hooFS5EZ//Q5O2yCr/YEQrGZSI9ignfIFwL2TKxkg72TFjGUtI2+ac4CTC EBIaneJAjJBPSZ7Wgz3KeJz4mP14W31anw+5xxEr8BnbBDQd1NXiXauLfSLC3XflYJeY L0Bwah54didCs+6R0ieHhM/+0Y6JhiAyFHKfp7gwdGmuL2pSci+8XBiHLYh5LMgYdy3Q 5H4/GAYtfpHV6Fzf1ls0EbEKOlaaUVvuG/30smpV3oE7Q8994VkZ3SrTfp1nodktT/GX 2cHg2QrLLFGKi3QRsCXTz4dyoBMomErTTpM66/AicAOBQfqy4HHE8YW92yXLh45aNWF7 q3dg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVC6nOgg0eBIlBVawTrv9xRGCCm9I4WaOD5DxZ/gXGMs4gfpFA3 oPB0q8HezPwvckO3BhUkMcQyKGeYaqlh7w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwxt+LLg3t4aT08TpGPaNaazls6+fws2i0wT8tx2hLSrr2ArYdOHbW0zIve4f3F3+uJAhh8rQ== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:5156:: with SMTP id h22mr11626855qtn.290.1576850798172; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 06:06:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.60] (modemcable138.218-70-69.static.videotron.ca. [69.70.218.138]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g21sm2792789qkl.116.2019.12.20.06.06.37 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 20 Dec 2019 06:06:37 -0800 (PST) From: "Marc Blanchet" To: "Stephen Farrell" Cc: architecture-discuss@iab.org Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 09:06:34 -0500 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.1r5671) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 14:06:42 -0000 On 20 Dec 2019, at 8:32, Stephen Farrell wrote: > Hiya, > > The IAB are considering starting up a programme on Internet > resilience as described at [1]. We'd love to get feedback > on that idea, the text at [1] and to find out if people > would like to participate and what topics you might suggest > be considered (or even better, what you'd actually do work > on yourself:-). Hello, good idea. been discussed for years by many. good to see the IAB take the lead. good proto charter. I would complement that, while diversity is key, it is not the only facet that needs to be looked at for resilience. I could think of others, such as decreasing DDOS capabilities by: « don’t advertise/forward what’s wrong »: for example: BGP lack of basic filtering, BCP38, … Maybe this is out of the scope you had in mind. happy to contribute. can’t tell right now which topic, could be many. Marc. > > There's no specific deadline for this, but the IAB will > consider this further in the new year, so if you could > take a few minutes to share your thoughts on this before > or over the holidays that'd be great. > > Thanks, > S. > > > [1] https://github.com/intarchboard/resilience/ > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss From nobody Fri Dec 20 06:19:51 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FB4D12002E for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 06:19:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.964 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.964 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_SBL_CSS=3.335, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F_pbejI6d5V9 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 06:19:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 164EC120026 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 06:19:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD77FBE2E; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 14:19:44 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9kMF6fzEpZqm; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 14:19:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4C0CEBE24; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 14:19:42 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1576851582; bh=j6uaQohDb7ZdaqaBl4lFBSZ5ysYf8HRASBpyYGTAPI4=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=JujHVIrUmz52YI3FWCvetuxxG0XKBLRgE3QfUBSVJKV//ke18rWiLNLuoS3hpdhQa 5Mt60Iazwb0XOuo9/fbu2eQxhY67hBxILtCeW90Vh64MkPOoIwRutoWIObPG+5cATZ TbSVoOV2548zJYplAdKMecXQBviBK4iwF8aC1Y5w= To: Marc Blanchet Cc: architecture-discuss@iab.org References: From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABtDJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPokCQAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxLkCDQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: <69ea7b71-f450-3edb-9f95-6828b6c1805e@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 14:19:41 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.2.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Lw6qXX6KqGpqJrQBNI9zBUEI5FkmcDfvO" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 14:19:50 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --Lw6qXX6KqGpqJrQBNI9zBUEI5FkmcDfvO Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="blj7gX3pVKZTnmXy7M6gghpJLn4r9GySu"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Marc Blanchet Cc: architecture-discuss@iab.org Message-ID: <69ea7b71-f450-3edb-9f95-6828b6c1805e@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience References: In-Reply-To: --blj7gX3pVKZTnmXy7M6gghpJLn4r9GySu Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------882BC659028308DDE21CEA10" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------882BC659028308DDE21CEA10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Marc, Thanks for the quick feedback. On 20/12/2019 14:06, Marc Blanchet wrote: > On 20 Dec 2019, at 8:32, Stephen Farrell wrote: >=20 >> Hiya, >>=20 >> The IAB are considering starting up a programme on Internet=20 >> resilience as described at [1]. We'd love to get feedback on that >> idea, the text at [1] and to find out if people would like to >> participate and what topics you might suggest be considered (or >> even better, what you'd actually do work on yourself:-). >=20 > Hello, good idea. been discussed for years by many. good to see the > IAB take the lead. good proto charter. I would complement that, while > diversity is key, it is not the only facet that needs to be looked at > for resilience. I could think of others, such as decreasing DDOS > capabilities by: =C3=82=C2=AB=C3=82 don=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2t advert= ise/forward what=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2s wrong=C3=82 =C3=82=C2=BB: > for example: BGP lack of basic filtering, BCP38, =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=A6 = Maybe this is > out of the scope you had in mind. Not at all, and that's a good point. I guess an example around DDoS could be good to add to the charter to make that clearer. I created an issue [1] in github for that. And btw - I should have said that comments/issues/PRs on github are also welcome if that's how someone prefers. Cheers, S. [1] https://github.com/intarchboard/resilience/issues/4 >=20 > happy to contribute. can=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2t tell right now which = topic, could be > many. >=20 > Marc. >=20 >>=20 >> There's no specific deadline for this, but the IAB will consider >> this further in the new year, so if you could take a few minutes to >> share your thoughts on this before or over the holidays that'd be >> great. >>=20 >> Thanks, S. >>=20 >>=20 >> [1] https://github.com/intarchboard/resilience/=20 >> _______________________________________________=20 >> Architecture-discuss mailing list Architecture-discuss@ietf.org=20 >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss --------------882BC659028308DDE21CEA10 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9t lyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQAB tCFTdGVwaGVuIEZhcnJlbGwgPHN0ZXBoZW5AamVsbC5pZT6JAj0EEwEIACcFAlo9 UYwCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQWrL68XsXK+qG CxAApYHWYgGOIL3G6/OpkejdAkQoCVQAK8LJUSf6vzwost4iVfxIKcKW/3RqKNKk rRl8beJ7j1CWXAz9+VXAOsE9+zNxXIDgGA7HlvJnhffl+qwibVgiHgUcJFhCSbBr sjC+1uULaTU8zYEyET//GOGPLF+X+degkE/sesh4zcEAjF7fGPnlncdCCH3tvPZZ sdTcjwOCRVonKsDgQzBTCMz/RPBfEFX44HZx4g1UQAcCA4xlucY8QkJEyCrSNGpG nvGK8DcGSmnstl1/a9fnlhpdFxieX3oY2phJ1WKkYTn6Advrek3UP71CKxpgtPmk d3iUUz/VZa0Cv6YxQXskspRDVEvdCMYSQBtJPQ4y2+5UxVR9GIQXenwYp9AP2niv Voh+ITsDWWeWnnvYMq07rSDjq0nGdj41MJkNX+Yb2PXVyXItcj5ybE3T2+y3pSBG FEZYJGuaL4NwtBJFMOdOtBmUOPbetS2971EL3Izxb7ibOZWDwexv+8R6SWYfP1wV N3p46RyBQuXqJV8ccE11m6vtZTGSYgnLUUFZMRQYH+0hwuYe0T3AA18xDdSYsa8v ovCCd3l5S4UNzIM2PMChqGrEzKapUpZg7+8ACcxRU3b9Ihd7WYjJ+pQPCoWYKozv tEvenbNpE/govO/ED3B14e+R2yevRPjRrsN7PJzSf15fQLuJARwEEAEIAAYFAlo9 UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLrSwf+MIHbFRQ4O5cmLYR5sIByWelN3SuRN/gW8rpKo9Ok Cz6An8uV/iCXy5tNMLzzi0BFl8f22DwBcC5qy9qnlIAdogWam1qWoTAoAD8veEqm uKhYrqJsCcAyNrKYmK0hP3rpHxx1LySDmKYXmw/8qtBXKHTouMm+5tSsznhykRMT AAr2p7PSaHgo+hIVaW/rKSspHjDhhZS+G9mtOZad1IH29M6G1Q1NCO0Ywe8krKLQ IAQlFxtgvOqpPOZNzeKBa/+KbE8TGgMWrkOhC8OeEM5PVzdDhlhD9kPzB/pCKDF5 DofJ/ZRqnDpbKPQ0bsW38AOig3kOc0A27awiBEw3urqR1YkCMwQQAQgAHRYhBH4X CgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJbtyScAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSI/oP/0A9J9nrnBMq Zpm857lfYWw+rshLK+tyeP4OQeOqnDFvs9jePpcyJLG3DF2r6VbVKPQq+AE6Uf5h cJBDEN6BjEhRPSbLcqG3A1cz/nNwm8rPmNp+oKhmaBBQGxwciMLmzgynsDydnjPp MyEs04zvsbsl4vrp2095o105l8KcrrxQrioFjbwveGwHQK9bxJKhx9D+gIk+MouB ur45UDKTZkMZrr9FGrtkyXCGAxvKdcNC5Oa8z9sj1rcUJfG/OpVAMWhArdlZbFUQ yoX6pU2Zb1CR2qpWAVerGSfBhmfCyStjARqaKxlftjO+Bj3Jj73Cr5eqej3qB5+V 4BCsPjr4RLvVbYUCPsRdxWc+nBLlfVYkRURu21g1hFm5KFPjgUkyo1s4vjUOY8Dy I+xLGF7f/IhUBG6l+Vswhpwu7ydalZkeFiPx5xna5NfbEYxvsIf71DvipGvIOaHv X4egWoFgm8n/9c3rcMxJtpwHPSsUt5dgLsyu6VE0IbvOAc3dN7CWJ355DVFJq9Zg 2YVf0izSpyyzJeGsgkfjW6xpmdvZxuT2UcN4BTcm6vYqueASGrb3lfhzC5gpeVsc /MoSjTS65vNWbpzONZWMZuLEFraxWJzC0JrDK3NCd0VN3kstqGkVbUIiYOnUm8Vu 4zoVMLlGWzHLIGoPRG2nRezn1YyNfyb5iQGcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8 pK1gE7QL/ApC5P68W5DrI1787WJVZv1u4t/g39vTr7Xer3UMTVQg10vpa7pmqOGh jIDzDMg3Pe3K3M7fVzfAlUA1qw6ne4RCueVoRKpubeF4AlYbMr0K6hNCPjt5uAxm bBVuejKTc6pru5rv5gKL0nDbr+Snft5xt7juBLSSimw0/41sZnkjCxo9rF/RA/v6 +uWyK171RKmsEYu8fFtw1eqUNt/Xj792TUixE3pxXheNtQtZGk/9P3W83ChhG4Fh 5EQsn0pIh9wZIAbMRLpgRKyW87fWHZC8/YH8h7afarvn9Thl5pFUldCe22mNJj6K LChn2aEHQd+PdY1GBpZEcmNEUPuovwzatM0h64hCzTm41eDqRfihZVBT7TbfXQnv 8rywa42Mk756RGzzEZcQEhwQXZcMQUfxIQQ2VyJo0zG36VdZTQF7TF/4Lz7/3cJ5 6jOIm+dwPXtu+C2wAQuD4USOLt4JWPYpqzDfHYJIND/497P9Z9SuQeahr2ez3DRB g3qsHEjBV7QyU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsICgyMDE3KSA8c3RlcGhlbi5mYXJyZWxs QGNzLnRjZC5pZT6JAkAEEwEIACoCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwEC HgECF4AFAlo+o3cCGQEACgkQWrL68XsXK+qO0A//ZsfQzyXrZlu/eEV5jU620yeO M3P7SW3C3UQYdCgZ/TlvxGgKow5oDSXgjMiUyq9csGqbPBxlDYSxFZHNeDVKYIuP 2ZK24tw5k6duTh4+sFwUualTMlcp0zBCIzn3hRcsRvuPKHfl5+6oOi0+xqx3jX/s /69L/fvHmdSKet5LIUAxoYaZkTCruFrPWb01tgAl5JExWkhmCY98iD+EeiIMAWBj Mw1xV+p0uCwNbN6XDzcToK7wsm+tAIiWUy3DpP60a6WbVwdV0HNt2WZq5U5Jdh2k 4S+sN2CnYk4tTW7jHjsWarV3FLISCOObADZuB7ljU4kYfdwZ+WzenXY4LGlxGQSl AblGjwZe4EIkCXAJUtzJhoFUuGaF/PlWjxqV3UFRcgTERZTijguVyREre8GNERNg vDxZvuXssEjvz9X5JfcIZDIJpdzhLiEIj9noUbfx1SzB5KDPQj0O7elMHa1671/r wWcpGr/MfVPTOik4H7F8rcVJelceZTzC4tvya7M+jM4fyFWWt8Y4atTixUiP7U9o 4uBZCQ0GzvsmFA4XLqn2pA5rVizMXnGbGOjufAP/efEJ4ul3qvjYe8ye8DXEDjKA xo/tuHYtk19XCi83QzFhWls5TT+XQeVTMEvVqo9Wek8yoxo67qvLKKqIcG9givQd 8MxYNAbNYgSPtkbhZ8SJARwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLzHAgAlWT6 NXEGtw/r1miKNGcopzvzILQ9oB8rKI9U9EL6tOf/y2V5oYee/GyQDb3ZdoPxxYYc Jf+RyiH1nMoqUIZiZJaf3bJXinDZ5+AdfE++UR2NBvqaNyC6u3r24jo1B/sagKbY tWgsYtRqHLD4IWi37MZrVyjBuF7u14Q07+uhjq6mX2O/tHpCYw/Q82tbeTRPyUf1 WQOAfD1kfBpW9PvAva5Iw9FWeXpCXRzwxnCZhYfGfqtuSw6CPBYLdbikqML6FZ7E DuTBb/8um1wK7Y9bgeIQC+CYjhYB5RXa1tDJRab2Js4luCvSR0w/CgHw26293tlv e2Q6UTrmHxP5U22DlokCPQQTAQgAJwUCWj1QMgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkK CwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6tJpD/4rrILH+meP07vrx8wW5eYuqCiP GYnh/CXxIF8eLrfbe5d4QRgtq+w6UeQPMyzKRIRiCoBXB2oJLBZHyxBPxZlg33dT MrEGn8QWKx2iNuz9rZMXyOSWFetuO01d/aUPd5BnbLbIyK5of8xCQlXM6KH8bc+9 gQ7edR9mfLTdvBf2FR522hg8BRBM1imKc3vO8v39+qIHHRjuiwxBBCAOhHtHRsZX ripS0uFA07dM46Oi/E8osjx6fQt/lH5z/PN+2adxYSrLSAXfr1oD3RxYNhuWgyGF L64/VCQb1YGjf0Z5MBPnWm9jgUoOY5K9eNSS0L83WeJjlF5+Q/WOgB+rb49Prm2D Feo9+S9f2V53Llz1WIspXJg6f+n9lmHE94MfQj1GAHCzI0FeL19lvM+LhD8jJSCb hrC3+yobyy/AUOs5Z3E+njjX1FF/VCVAs6iOa6i+XG+Y1hh3ir2y1kckJ5auT10M SU8GEZu9ayU4M3o3N9yxOjaoP0NuQ4MMLL/n/u4u94AeZaHPNBXn/hVfVRRmpRXt GKvJtFAEppGEYezB+bLKIm6XlpPkhnwYzleLZ7AMEco2C6QM8QPB3g3JpS3sqRhA 5rEP4lL16BmijmF+CHoPE/zwgKZbKpyVDqvIW5IDgvfIC2X4pbZDRvGIUKaGSB4+ ksZgUUnNyvfQr2p7jokCMwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJb tySbAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSeKkQAJm44jt1kwHgQgeDBKdjdvl0AjE0xVEQxriZ6lP/ l//34YT0auFfzsYIrChSpQXAEtobBAr4Ohw1Us+BZe+H5P8vm6LRuPwozC3SjwfX 4Iec8+9ot6tIVg4sbedDSgb/CCFVjsmIGcQ1P73JLJTBJ6mxYCV/gn3QC6bwDOFo 7kD9FDHCjRN8XfhHQ4Q9cYyt06uF31qG/aumgWYC9geCGgAwiHgwxNYb9GoJ0iZj CROwbYvLTcQgsVUW2bTmsVR13UVKDsdl02sRV7qcVYW6R0a3Ra8KudX+nt25H5DR Gd382KZ5W8pydsy/viTvD9z6v0ulChBYxAedIvGIClrhbxlLEPmIg4ImVOLGqsUg Vm32J95WOjEkk4PEZ12xSDBtwhSJqmJNboWlfmw43KdIbY8zNhffIO3N6O7FsdGx mqyHeLoTpqY+ySVUPpbuyW8ujnI/J//+6hdTZ9dQsEJQlWngKuWOQ5ma58MPSN88 zllsqhZAFQjNxqnkSzL6ZQ+v/jvuRRe16B80AeO55DsmbWsMv/YLLD1mSi7+Khy2 EtMBhgojWwrGMvdLN6X3mnzNJEscYyLxM9tSk+iySP2sLthK0BVgpAzBSdaf/ezI z60P+neHDzteNFf8Mn7lmgYk1amvZoJ29s5+n2HwxyRL5dVMyMdyQmntubbctfqr Z0tIiQGcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gnCYMAJY4FeIYjlIXGghFWzsB 4fYwK1+iaFpU3fSto5qcrqVtVPjXpwqczqBWeXGyQxiB0kan4OVAXydIeaP8EAuF CA7paP3s9STLJBO3KurkwyRkPW5zo0X7xVqaVToRsX2Ul98KVJoHYQD1KdezEtwl vpNwiiBr42AYR751Vm6JBVAbQXuFpB3c8bUV0OkkRxNFtL8/2PieHar58n5dntGk bPlPkztahsFqktgacIgXHX5vaT+7YeeZ1DWLOYjGO0wNhkOSeroCmxwJUikU7joB p823L7r5KfpqWTPpSCzVstQKZUGmmoE1qCswY/Ud5wvp9SccpIILkRXj0rZRtfnE 5MpL3hjmtNzfDd9qIsJtBJlSB2hZwAsVm1l+EWN9hG3tqyA43niUMy2n6q690of3 berSiQ+kvY/aC9Hx8I+bKzOV9/J2VUTqfaPZa4Uy2rVX5Q2p69n/PMj7mEer0rCL 3j9V16J9c+s0BSkXoKdtYdB0TWVhBgUybd9qtYcwHWvhP7QuU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJy ZWxsIDxzdGVwaGVuQHRvbGVyYW50bmV0d29ya3MuY29tPokCPQQTAQgAJwUCWj1R WgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6jsc EADEcB0WQEZn2AkrzDs1RhL0Lp6cZi0BigofkbcGfdhJyMSs19C0dhvncrAFClVI 6/Udw3yFtDyYtOCf2W3M3A1K6/RfEizCLzTsdFIhni9gOJLlUpXViQtgrlstjk7h qVV3Ooz4BlCqS4cG7rfqf4LQQPpTAuFUEV9I28FBUB2irqC+v4gTysIgpMw0bA1y BU9sX5jE/tRkzqnuzZrkwiobDtRFJ9qp+7O2JtcY4EsVtLAsaodJKc5cF8R4OvB1 n66vxxcgg9Eh4JNWZ47xsaCmAGo1Bcb2jIY35OtgAL7gCGLRSMKTtAaPy1/fEgIq hCljJ9x40Fkn/3r2BX21WC9HFSPFTBz2RluLRzxdgxOrkYK8EiHUPoE5b1AEzZKw 2AbeXfr57f5zYsN3IqfbQLUjMYtUN1wK3Pjb+idD972wyXMWt8uOzlI7b9Ocu+nY m2whBfJv9Pmp3QYTmPz+LB9lH65VNVUSxSXVr5iWXO3qx1HtEiGEqkporMQCTh3T 5Ud3PvMSRBFFKNs9WhJ/Lxz+SV30WLwG6dr5mQqlzAhb4Phc/zekZyXRdS/oDKrB LUucS36O//49JeyRi1QvOfxnfmIqRIAf/k3PoYJmTo5E82//r5Qj3YGlRu78ba0H Arxs+ACD6AnEHHcbswpbtVEKYzlSu0Ar0Dc7vRWM/IyQdIkBHAQQAQgABgUCWj1S oAAKCRAvPIc2gF+NosIsB/9f/29FNla3BJfGIEIDnhrqGD0i9bSa89SqBd++uG06 TQgW5wsqtNcrwn81yZTq6XE6i9VtD4GKfqC0d4KZJr9bnbeD81cI64VOdL8zJWJs 0vj5EIXCobKyX74Kb4uePUyZqwT2Q74I116u/HwA9/FXsPo5isbh4ZqD4t0VHpWk mfq1FPT9a/JPyX46qKqB2Fce/7Qy+SQP1NfkuUlbhUH/JG9aSSYvk3lznNiH41x9 M+FDlL106itXOubrl3oi2fT3fsSedq7uzt+IV0DQEeNaoQAUuwEhdB8IWOMqN2wo DjGVKJftfsSWY9ilZrnDBNDrp0vRqcx33LUMkIw4d7iBiQIzBBABCAAdFiEEfhcK BFyEz0YOK3mgEO952f2DUxIFAlu3JJwACgkQEO952f2DUxJjuw/6ApHSsVTWD4a0 H6FJ23A9Ftpy+aXZ4vYlzkSrfsn2ECrEfK3lXQh/uzwjJUDYZeB1/BQsFZtcYNQO JSSHbQ49BFRLwb1J/wBZG4bbmrkLxnNbKDKQvzxEpclkMW0Dj0J6o7kGrmzIGGrh B+JJN99AcineHRug8ZSFIERRCmigxdhAKU0BFD7P+5HNHltSL3DF1c2fFOf2JrgB KVoE+9RhMZjWNbYetFFLCkjXb5Rpay9zeMm1DxfSTGAnuOwUXW6qq4hnl5+VC/48 ceDZElLLfu7RQUZv44pkSTOWZs+iQoJiHMFHk9wPqyB2Vok1yJ2a2j27WhXrJlPw nZbgJO5RyWDG3p/eVmpl5Uuc2dsfIpR17KnAuWpghK6V+cyFncDoGCl/YG2Mvool sW08FiZh3Ej4dnJjj25TZkeFG74JJDXLvMYpJfSBGnmETv4Dhcm2xPqVMuFuL1qJ lMbVLrMo2GXeo03OzNyvbs+u8WLIaGm5hC7N1CXY8wZs4jo6OJ/expvnc07dEuws 4zT3AiWv3nIouWReRStZy9QkavDocqbyPmilcdPCYk4BsOlzpwwO74hNG7iyl0Kd AlwTxGQ7y0rJou6HYa1TmRhIEr3vKvlW+JfUUrqtjXgsuacTXo4+Ira2JUErL2cY zQMq1j4r1ZyhFnuz93s7Rsx/Nw0+0YuJAZwEEAEKAAYFAlvFx+UACgkQajsROTyk rWCJqwv+NLVPE4sD4sDA2/6Ek7UsRIUkg+S39fhqWsLc4rtw/mDunv8Un61I3K04 fZ2Ry4nF9hZM0a710UvXFbStvrzRJO3EAAcdJR9LTCd19e8UeruQbIee3YT91U4N kC9JMpecfq62/teOAU2e5P3fWYaLs5ZX7zCLwWuBcW2l3SyoljQczM85HhJ3XHm+ FnwQ6D9xRle+lvWTcuC9d1yAyUb8IOospcL2lJTmy8e3r79R24hPlSB4LDe0wEN8 AXbagrcAQZjwyaHyWxjJbTwZ0b43WGdfIqZ1ElOeoffbketPGRmWvx5xUvb2ALFB BdETzV270gs5XDJgJ1SIIKOyDADxwvroTe2jD8C/841eEql5QSow3s/U3zRqk3mt tto8Qw/DN71aeh6dmYSsvd2UjsHw/vofOPRBGxZLEkKTEvMnhmMW9hiKPkPia+Qg evYE020qpKSxLEdWA8nprHwxmGiDNesCfXSC6vm1qfyj5g8HzxSckq9ZaMhKMCo7 vxflUEDuuQINBFo9UDIBEAD6DdHQfMav8OXfhjTteoarOrlJTSdci727xiezGPuB HmpvceBRZgRasdbaMc4HJee+R9+5x/nLPCuy/DxDyIjwIUeJNgc+l7LjI9WfpHTD 8U4xxjvR5Mi7+ToQQUOUNuzT0O0pyuxP1uY3RehHEhOVfBZO59ipSeZL5iQC6T5M sK1SKfs51pLa5ToC1rc8tBJ4zZmxRAyZiYc/AH2uZ/6rYjTTkAn1DVI9DYo2D/zE 4bGjXdJW5pKphFB2lX3dG4I7ODi+5e1H6A/QpCu6z8/ZkIQ+9T1xcX/YwiFeA7Pb TuW/eITbMbI1eV3+fyym9aT7Rsflmp31Zxtr+sZwGGZf00ooMBFmqOS//NUQ/Vf3 vDUew1h5QU1yDaWT3NApvi+XWPH9TPy6TMfZA2FThHf11sX/gDBa5JWQZbptPEcm oazpiKZt91CrFPOaoXDPck/Q61dfmr/oPikfByYnASIM3OwEuXqyQ9JDRfKrem5r +oA/wxWb5jELElAhOpnyqMMvOh7uz1foUssL8MAv2TGXmxpVJ8Nu4je6wf96Z22f Q0D38zud+CKH3bMP3ayXXJBcdPoENrzFbWP5FTg/4TTDJ3vOAHZR5iCunYghx8b7 Ffa4UbkwlD+dh8GiIAtvT51Ac0cO0Wc0Zjc57zPUz1zloMbf+zb1Bsn7DuEQoqj1 gwARAQABiQIlBBgBCAAPBQJaPVAyAhsMBQkJlCYAAAoJEFqy+vF7FyvqrC8P/1tF 6TeR83xD6MasqXyrBjwcLmziaF0Mlkj8k/YUiZ/knb53n97xQnh9yxPv0TT8Wpfd n3BmvqGyh8+ouHX9jMOxiRkMdNhIauVYY/8jmRfBSYWcFkfMzdYasvdLtmYJgx25 2HKTFdeOrszoOjWjEzwmh+tca3AFMu/nB++/KAmi5UJV7zsZ7uYJ5jm97LV5SLjN JIXXM+lHqCDrjDaDhNczmq1LCRlU6/WDjvkuwaVhZG4lXxMDrvKnXMkjseQ2oKjw rIdfQM86H1z5J31lfhqop+of0cimcIsBgSCPu+h96LHuAzeRBCbDKeqrfZtAZAGs okRina9947fRWxXHh3O66ILmXKNRxxWbDkPvYnQWUat8SbSTDoPWrDIGDRIAypqY o3pcN2OE0C1chqgDZQxkr+9kYZQpupOAN2TR+fM7JvbO9coKI8Uqog8CopoMeDQk d0YjcqlB1E0svODHTzcSoRzogDBYDqNLP7qVkNXpcOAXSVioBgiSDf7o5RdS/qmU yXBIeq6I5z8xBcd+BQ/n/9Frkm6K7IKP3ngUP4wEoiPx5ZE5+fPIScGmVUcZIMhk vMvem9XXh1yyhqN14gfjmLwPGdWbrgG8QUe0s2WeWIyss6uTiyF+ZbJSo2XOKVc3 YFMVUUfgyudqAV1wWdZinUk+H3pkqOKoHAy/8fST =3DYzQY -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- --------------882BC659028308DDE21CEA10-- --blj7gX3pVKZTnmXy7M6gghpJLn4r9GySu-- --Lw6qXX6KqGpqJrQBNI9zBUEI5FkmcDfvO Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAl382H0ACgkQWrL68XsX K+o3KQ/+Oqm/uh+gSVRi3G0INZBfHDPKFJouD5bz5mA+q7FnzFiANDBezZnuqiP8 CP9WSf0S/j7DaDJcT18I7gEuYiGMLD4l49Chc/lcduNuY2xY9iE8sOukJRVLkNLy hec5hCljTHmbV56At4+lOZWjoPozQziqjYsse1Jal4Fu46rIbJs43vk2nqIXPcEo MkhZ+dE1dZskiGa5drtkpYXi79OtFkzFEwom0h0Wg1oHEvuU3wrCVwyLDDnS3OvF VswyPUm0l4PpasgvqQpXMp8CUxBmw2NQZn+gY3hx6wrwFfwEnOJF+jOR87OXTmxw +hwvOQg6I6ljnO6TI4X63lKdDIo602t5hlUnpwKIeZDr9KQ9K/84B5ag22+DW1iR pbFcQNPYYulo02XneIxMYFik7JhfNhTTFDHUA7MdxCR+/6tGOHX6YDSX/KQJg/JI PimNeAlrNshGVAQY7TpX6SO1zXIK3qsjKQbCYzX9aJ4PL8AdjP++XfHikGOLiqOB iA9PHnzIs+SIsU2kmU/UatqICaAGbj89Z9Izt/KAK2PkPMCdtFIcoPJcPuQqK2hV mJnmCI4xy1f8a4BxeMzdQuiRVLGiT1KTGPpNM63nEjMgd4TTPpkC9WjTMkvWRkCg /fACcEp7dt33DEZRC3kOR/P9OtP6k17M/YcGRv53IkPvRNtHz+g= =sPIO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Lw6qXX6KqGpqJrQBNI9zBUEI5FkmcDfvO-- From nobody Fri Dec 20 08:46:17 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B79F120856 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 08:46:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IEc3JenIjrSP for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 08:46:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailg110.ethz.ch (mailg110.ethz.ch [IPv6:2001:67c:10ec:5605::21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6645312084D for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 08:46:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailm212.d.ethz.ch (2001:67c:10ec:5603::26) by mailg110.ethz.ch (2001:67c:10ec:5605::21) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1847.3; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 17:46:03 +0100 Received: from macsl (130.59.196.135) by mailm212.d.ethz.ch (2001:67c:10ec:5603::26) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1847.3; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 17:46:08 +0100 From: Simon Leinen To: Marc Blanchet CC: Stephen Farrell , In-Reply-To: (Marc Blanchet's message of "Fri, 20 Dec 2019 09:06:34 -0500") References: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (darwin) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 17:46:20 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Originating-IP: [130.59.196.135] X-ClientProxiedBy: mailm117.d.ethz.ch (2001:67c:10ec:5602::29) To mailm212.d.ethz.ch (2001:67c:10ec:5603::26) X-TM-SNTS-SMTP: 7554958F4792E9F984740D736C748AB17CEBD168E29457E2E3722B5C761CE3E92000:8 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 16:46:15 -0000 Marc Blanchet writes: > good proto charter. I would complement that, while diversity is key, > it is not the only facet that needs to be looked at for resilience. I > could think of others, such as decreasing DDOS capabilities by: > =C2=AB=C2=A0don=E2=80=99t advertise/forward what=E2=80=99s wrong=C2=A0=C2= =BB: for example: BGP lack of > basic filtering, BCP38, =E2=80=A6 Maybe this is out of the scope you had= in > mind. While it's generally a good idea to not advertise or forward what's wrong, I think this is a general security consideration that I wouldn't associate with resilience (maybe more with "resistance" to attack/damage). In fact, one could argue that in the presence of restrictive definitions of "right", what you suggest will actually make the system less resilient (though more secure, at least from the perspective of those holding narrow definitions of "right"). --=20 Simon. From nobody Fri Dec 20 08:58:18 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1CAB120859 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 08:58:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.889 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=viagenie-ca.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 51iEbRpBa8Ae for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 08:58:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x733.google.com (mail-qk1-x733.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::733]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C47D12084D for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 08:58:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x733.google.com with SMTP id x1so8138260qkl.12 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 08:58:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=viagenie-ca.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/u/5rIWI9lgZtLhqpQY3evwse30iuKATGAIBv6/22Us=; b=DA/j+K15XSvyOiPGc+FZYTBlYJB+TTuK5FKpbPpCC01hOFbKhEGCBFrtcF4mDsCQJ4 68Mu3KeGlMXoBT7hkrcsckWjiCJBQCArDxzgNF8recYi28PwDQsNhokqLWYfVTPMxBqU owjt5P5gBzPXHcZUDHbL+lEL3AEWNREP054aDqIKCGGvpGDRUqJ/LCAqNHHoTe3Zy3JM GXQy1Ai+7vsiJKl+gIxA5OOd5IogTcim32QiNQv+yykbPNa6RxzoMifTlmPS7JUpTCRi 01M7olzVnm1eVvXCz2u/y+rU7omdeIEC3zFqOepG7Vtb22etrpI64jdU1xlswS2N/S9g ojLA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/u/5rIWI9lgZtLhqpQY3evwse30iuKATGAIBv6/22Us=; b=sTPnk9qMQWCAeUWrCfI0RN6ONAMXNsr34At3t/Hd8mUC33rnfxLQAgvRO9idBqB17w ckH61Z/RQY6U27zb82rNU2CcdHGyOmH7XFdAYi+dnlw9Qj07j0S23UX+Tegd5QpzA9OI ePhnwh/0/m89wuM8PcasvNa4vjkfOyQLWUtem4zC6H3Z5ZhXMq19OHsvrdrozvDoCAq2 YAnQAItzzZaMGmghZ2mGi5XRfpVuLg3JUwZpnL9/ffPnHcb/JjFgCo5zrJ6uQb7wLjkt rWHs+rxnE+osDWRpXIjuTZVkAD/PPAyo1KIt9Hn6YjpETKWGxHaKsYRuPWcS33hBktWs d21Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVoSbguqbygFdIGTZ3kAEVdYHguJ7EHgdeiBXeqTyHmFM7rU+gp bfSJG8ntmseU7i2Sz6HupoDSe+f8f720UA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzW3b8A9MG6WPpGY2ENHGiaxrTPMpqoFb9NFvfR0IYBvV8WNN+nAORJmB8SC1uokjVevHtCiw== X-Received: by 2002:ae9:dc85:: with SMTP id q127mr12772076qkf.460.1576861094968; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 08:58:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.60] (modemcable138.218-70-69.static.videotron.ca. [69.70.218.138]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l33sm3282827qtf.79.2019.12.20.08.58.13 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 20 Dec 2019 08:58:14 -0800 (PST) From: "Marc Blanchet" To: "Simon Leinen" Cc: "Stephen Farrell" , architecture-discuss@iab.org Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 11:58:12 -0500 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.1r5671) Message-ID: <0E09F23B-4A96-4C59-B08A-00B4DDC1093C@viagenie.ca> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed; markup=markdown Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 16:58:18 -0000 On 20 Dec 2019, at 11:46, Simon Leinen wrote: > Marc Blanchet writes: >> good proto charter. I would complement that, while diversity is key, >> it is not the only facet that needs to be looked at for resilience. I >> could think of others, such as decreasing DDOS capabilities by: >> « don’t advertise/forward what’s wrong »: for example: BGP >> lack of >> basic filtering, BCP38, … Maybe this is out of the scope you had >> in >> mind. > > While it's generally a good idea to not advertise or forward what's > wrong, I think this is a general security consideration that I > wouldn't > associate with resilience (maybe more with "resistance" to > attack/damage). agree that is a not the exact scope as written. That is why I put « maybe this is out of scope you had in mind ». but it is not far… as you say correctly, it is another perspective of the problem space. > > In fact, one could argue that in the presence of restrictive > definitions > of "right", what you suggest will actually make the system less > resilient (though more secure, at least from the perspective of those > holding narrow definitions of "right"). It all depends on what is the scope and also how one would tackle the problem. It could also be something to at least include in the discussion. Marc. > -- > Simon. From nobody Fri Dec 20 09:13:13 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B662A120856 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 09:13:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YJYeYztASRxw for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 09:13:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from ayla.bortzmeyer.org (ayla.bortzmeyer.org [IPv6:2001:4b98:dc0:41:216:3eff:fe27:3d3f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 28F1412084D for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 09:13:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by ayla.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id E4F4FA029E; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 18:13:06 +0100 (CET) Received: by mail.sources.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A27F8C98E5; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 18:10:26 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 18:10:26 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Simon Leinen Cc: Marc Blanchet , architecture-discuss@iab.org Message-ID: <20191220171026.GA28942@sources.org> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 10.2 X-Charlie: Je suis Charlie User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 17:13:12 -0000 On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 05:46:20PM +0100, Simon Leinen wrote a message of 19 lines which said: > While it's generally a good idea to not advertise or forward what's > wrong, I think this is a general security consideration that I wouldn't > associate with resilience (maybe more with "resistance" to > attack/damage). > > In fact, one could argue that in the presence of restrictive definitions > of "right", what you suggest will actually make the system less > resilient (though more secure, at least from the perspective of those > holding narrow definitions of "right"). Indeed, the current project of charter seems to be more about robustness than about resilience. (And, yes, security can decrease robustness, think of DNSSEC or PKIX validation issues.) From nobody Fri Dec 20 11:14:18 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A94E1209A0 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 11:14:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dgIfCeGHfEdN for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 11:14:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x1033.google.com (mail-pj1-x1033.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1033]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C4B6120999 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 11:14:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x1033.google.com with SMTP id l35so4547731pje.3 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 11:14:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=5WIvOqowQwmWToWFZ/uvFpzsFp1P0TpOj2Wva/JWUSc=; b=GavadMqxfa9sYb5u1otaN4kQhs207BX8fZfs0aPmt2AIaqRFNvj8jjfcjhm1cfHT1n xsexrtNXCiVqjRQF6rkSUiNrelLjyQYvVjDN4OTs1/cYYO8rHaHurkLn9qLvU5oelvny 3ppVaGui2gOqGneewG+2fTVE6MrpKLCZbEhkAUKF4oDbjoGd2M8VOYS+RmpKvfk/a1iT 4cH7yLMxQgWp3zxlrnsZZjQ3wRnHpOu47ERzF6famb5nPdKcvukCvzupL1Dir/9dQtxT QtACY7MO1kvleKRDVV4cSdxcOUI7ZkzzL5lBWtWyHdb7jw6/Fox87ZCzEi+jWDKo6E7V i2Rw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=5WIvOqowQwmWToWFZ/uvFpzsFp1P0TpOj2Wva/JWUSc=; b=iEDqQNr7d16P9dT2rj2jPf4B7xSgOIjdR6J9NuG0mflfJR82/VfqyGAz3xzQ40yHU6 zcwzCbCzQIJsgNZeNegdsOHaMnA0Bf3UFPsNzOazHDryNX4AC7+K7juneSW3ror1P1rr sR8XkqZ9wql2miJzagincrLsxGEiAphhBk8qFW6/UBNAOq1id1gqOHFAhaPmRzr1oCSE pZYCIajAyDA3nWJdgTexSPsG9oGwNGMd3Jl5feb9cm4xj+9jzYYT7hxb+ObUXmcTzYZX IPiq0WOFUvUgktvFepaFFXE4dx7k3SwtvATkLyvViac41ojLy5j1+lzFqzSnubVk7JgN uXSQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUVHvqj/tgrbseGc41rLMKC01WsObJ/uNYJO4fVWSwZQb+G3O1Y z3F+iOGClYcT9nUGqmlwZSzUhKXc X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxF48rfnU4rwoeVjPi6Fmn2Ec/Hs7PG2ZbXUwstoXg0I/Z7DdDTiZ5pTrbyBUEcgQrQSPHqtQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:200d:: with SMTP id n13mr18298992pjc.16.1576869255160; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 11:14:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.30] (228.147.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.147.228]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y6sm12498787pgc.10.2019.12.20.11.14.13 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 20 Dec 2019 11:14:14 -0800 (PST) To: Stephen Farrell , architecture-discuss@iab.org References: From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2019 08:14:10 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 19:14:17 -0000 Good topic. Resilience is a broad church and I'm not sure that "for example OPSAWG and DNSOP" doesn't imply a narrower scope than you intend. For example... I would definitely add ANIMA there, since one of the main goals of autonomic networking is resilience to unexpected events. In fact that's why we often speak of the need for an ANIMA ecosystem, because natural ecosystems are intrinsically resilient. Regards Brian On 21-Dec-19 02:32, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Hiya, > > The IAB are considering starting up a programme on Internet > resilience as described at [1]. We'd love to get feedback > on that idea, the text at [1] and to find out if people > would like to participate and what topics you might suggest > be considered (or even better, what you'd actually do work > on yourself:-). > > There's no specific deadline for this, but the IAB will > consider this further in the new year, so if you could > take a few minutes to share your thoughts on this before > or over the holidays that'd be great. > > Thanks, > S. > > > [1] https://github.com/intarchboard/resilience/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > From nobody Fri Dec 20 17:23:33 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 322091209EE for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 17:23:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.965 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.965 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_SBL_CSS=3.335, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vn1i-Be382zp for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 17:23:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1BB3A1209EB for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 17:23:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DBF6BE47; Sat, 21 Dec 2019 01:23:21 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ryoBM9necnnb; Sat, 21 Dec 2019 01:23:19 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 60FF6BE3E; Sat, 21 Dec 2019 01:23:19 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1576891399; bh=wjYedT2VhTB6sFwUUbStiHh/AyWGnRcvKfExbljdUg8=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=Y6sFFZ2MhhB4kRrRZPmhFWIpCTpphrBlOZrNtENtRt4Ki6uxTil2akXwt43DDRf8M oD1HhsXvvuz9r2sA4CQC6ezP+0oE8G50n29uJVVcCKZm2+nrHKE/pJX/nSNAQDHALU U0o7Hhl9Kw7gJhkpOfvBDrLj1aCcRPAhcjLmQ6bQ= To: Stephane Bortzmeyer , Simon Leinen Cc: architecture-discuss@iab.org References: <20191220171026.GA28942@sources.org> From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABtDJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPokCQAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxLkCDQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: <03e742f4-2306-93af-e17c-d8af9a5fef6c@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2019 01:23:18 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.2.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20191220171026.GA28942@sources.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="34jHreXhSsw2vlaLm7hyE4cX1AaPj9bUx" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2019 01:23:31 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --34jHreXhSsw2vlaLm7hyE4cX1AaPj9bUx Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="5FHaxrQY4h4rzM6QdR4S06RdK7U7cdkSd"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Stephane Bortzmeyer , Simon Leinen Cc: architecture-discuss@iab.org Message-ID: <03e742f4-2306-93af-e17c-d8af9a5fef6c@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience References: <20191220171026.GA28942@sources.org> In-Reply-To: <20191220171026.GA28942@sources.org> --5FHaxrQY4h4rzM6QdR4S06RdK7U7cdkSd Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------8C31121E74A7E985B5E86B66" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------8C31121E74A7E985B5E86B66 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 20/12/2019 17:10, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 05:46:20PM +0100, > Simon Leinen wrote=20 > a message of 19 lines which said: >=20 >> While it's generally a good idea to not advertise or forward what's >> wrong, I think this is a general security consideration that I wouldn'= t >> associate with resilience (maybe more with "resistance" to >> attack/damage). >> >> In fact, one could argue that in the presence of restrictive definitio= ns >> of "right", what you suggest will actually make the system less >> resilient (though more secure, at least from the perspective of those >> holding narrow definitions of "right"). >=20 > Indeed, the current project of charter seems to be more about > robustness than about resilience. Sorry - I'm not really following any of the above comments. Can one of you try explain some more? >=20 > (And, yes, security can decrease robustness, think of DNSSEC or PKIX > validation issues.) Sure. That I understand and agree with. Thanks, S. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss >=20 --------------8C31121E74A7E985B5E86B66 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9t lyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQAB tCFTdGVwaGVuIEZhcnJlbGwgPHN0ZXBoZW5AamVsbC5pZT6JAj0EEwEIACcFAlo9 UYwCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQWrL68XsXK+qG CxAApYHWYgGOIL3G6/OpkejdAkQoCVQAK8LJUSf6vzwost4iVfxIKcKW/3RqKNKk rRl8beJ7j1CWXAz9+VXAOsE9+zNxXIDgGA7HlvJnhffl+qwibVgiHgUcJFhCSbBr sjC+1uULaTU8zYEyET//GOGPLF+X+degkE/sesh4zcEAjF7fGPnlncdCCH3tvPZZ sdTcjwOCRVonKsDgQzBTCMz/RPBfEFX44HZx4g1UQAcCA4xlucY8QkJEyCrSNGpG nvGK8DcGSmnstl1/a9fnlhpdFxieX3oY2phJ1WKkYTn6Advrek3UP71CKxpgtPmk d3iUUz/VZa0Cv6YxQXskspRDVEvdCMYSQBtJPQ4y2+5UxVR9GIQXenwYp9AP2niv Voh+ITsDWWeWnnvYMq07rSDjq0nGdj41MJkNX+Yb2PXVyXItcj5ybE3T2+y3pSBG FEZYJGuaL4NwtBJFMOdOtBmUOPbetS2971EL3Izxb7ibOZWDwexv+8R6SWYfP1wV N3p46RyBQuXqJV8ccE11m6vtZTGSYgnLUUFZMRQYH+0hwuYe0T3AA18xDdSYsa8v ovCCd3l5S4UNzIM2PMChqGrEzKapUpZg7+8ACcxRU3b9Ihd7WYjJ+pQPCoWYKozv tEvenbNpE/govO/ED3B14e+R2yevRPjRrsN7PJzSf15fQLuJARwEEAEIAAYFAlo9 UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLrSwf+MIHbFRQ4O5cmLYR5sIByWelN3SuRN/gW8rpKo9Ok Cz6An8uV/iCXy5tNMLzzi0BFl8f22DwBcC5qy9qnlIAdogWam1qWoTAoAD8veEqm uKhYrqJsCcAyNrKYmK0hP3rpHxx1LySDmKYXmw/8qtBXKHTouMm+5tSsznhykRMT AAr2p7PSaHgo+hIVaW/rKSspHjDhhZS+G9mtOZad1IH29M6G1Q1NCO0Ywe8krKLQ IAQlFxtgvOqpPOZNzeKBa/+KbE8TGgMWrkOhC8OeEM5PVzdDhlhD9kPzB/pCKDF5 DofJ/ZRqnDpbKPQ0bsW38AOig3kOc0A27awiBEw3urqR1YkCMwQQAQgAHRYhBH4X CgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJbtyScAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSI/oP/0A9J9nrnBMq Zpm857lfYWw+rshLK+tyeP4OQeOqnDFvs9jePpcyJLG3DF2r6VbVKPQq+AE6Uf5h cJBDEN6BjEhRPSbLcqG3A1cz/nNwm8rPmNp+oKhmaBBQGxwciMLmzgynsDydnjPp MyEs04zvsbsl4vrp2095o105l8KcrrxQrioFjbwveGwHQK9bxJKhx9D+gIk+MouB ur45UDKTZkMZrr9FGrtkyXCGAxvKdcNC5Oa8z9sj1rcUJfG/OpVAMWhArdlZbFUQ yoX6pU2Zb1CR2qpWAVerGSfBhmfCyStjARqaKxlftjO+Bj3Jj73Cr5eqej3qB5+V 4BCsPjr4RLvVbYUCPsRdxWc+nBLlfVYkRURu21g1hFm5KFPjgUkyo1s4vjUOY8Dy I+xLGF7f/IhUBG6l+Vswhpwu7ydalZkeFiPx5xna5NfbEYxvsIf71DvipGvIOaHv X4egWoFgm8n/9c3rcMxJtpwHPSsUt5dgLsyu6VE0IbvOAc3dN7CWJ355DVFJq9Zg 2YVf0izSpyyzJeGsgkfjW6xpmdvZxuT2UcN4BTcm6vYqueASGrb3lfhzC5gpeVsc /MoSjTS65vNWbpzONZWMZuLEFraxWJzC0JrDK3NCd0VN3kstqGkVbUIiYOnUm8Vu 4zoVMLlGWzHLIGoPRG2nRezn1YyNfyb5iQGcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8 pK1gE7QL/ApC5P68W5DrI1787WJVZv1u4t/g39vTr7Xer3UMTVQg10vpa7pmqOGh jIDzDMg3Pe3K3M7fVzfAlUA1qw6ne4RCueVoRKpubeF4AlYbMr0K6hNCPjt5uAxm bBVuejKTc6pru5rv5gKL0nDbr+Snft5xt7juBLSSimw0/41sZnkjCxo9rF/RA/v6 +uWyK171RKmsEYu8fFtw1eqUNt/Xj792TUixE3pxXheNtQtZGk/9P3W83ChhG4Fh 5EQsn0pIh9wZIAbMRLpgRKyW87fWHZC8/YH8h7afarvn9Thl5pFUldCe22mNJj6K LChn2aEHQd+PdY1GBpZEcmNEUPuovwzatM0h64hCzTm41eDqRfihZVBT7TbfXQnv 8rywa42Mk756RGzzEZcQEhwQXZcMQUfxIQQ2VyJo0zG36VdZTQF7TF/4Lz7/3cJ5 6jOIm+dwPXtu+C2wAQuD4USOLt4JWPYpqzDfHYJIND/497P9Z9SuQeahr2ez3DRB g3qsHEjBV7QyU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsICgyMDE3KSA8c3RlcGhlbi5mYXJyZWxs QGNzLnRjZC5pZT6JAkAEEwEIACoCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwEC HgECF4AFAlo+o3cCGQEACgkQWrL68XsXK+qO0A//ZsfQzyXrZlu/eEV5jU620yeO M3P7SW3C3UQYdCgZ/TlvxGgKow5oDSXgjMiUyq9csGqbPBxlDYSxFZHNeDVKYIuP 2ZK24tw5k6duTh4+sFwUualTMlcp0zBCIzn3hRcsRvuPKHfl5+6oOi0+xqx3jX/s /69L/fvHmdSKet5LIUAxoYaZkTCruFrPWb01tgAl5JExWkhmCY98iD+EeiIMAWBj Mw1xV+p0uCwNbN6XDzcToK7wsm+tAIiWUy3DpP60a6WbVwdV0HNt2WZq5U5Jdh2k 4S+sN2CnYk4tTW7jHjsWarV3FLISCOObADZuB7ljU4kYfdwZ+WzenXY4LGlxGQSl AblGjwZe4EIkCXAJUtzJhoFUuGaF/PlWjxqV3UFRcgTERZTijguVyREre8GNERNg vDxZvuXssEjvz9X5JfcIZDIJpdzhLiEIj9noUbfx1SzB5KDPQj0O7elMHa1671/r wWcpGr/MfVPTOik4H7F8rcVJelceZTzC4tvya7M+jM4fyFWWt8Y4atTixUiP7U9o 4uBZCQ0GzvsmFA4XLqn2pA5rVizMXnGbGOjufAP/efEJ4ul3qvjYe8ye8DXEDjKA xo/tuHYtk19XCi83QzFhWls5TT+XQeVTMEvVqo9Wek8yoxo67qvLKKqIcG9givQd 8MxYNAbNYgSPtkbhZ8SJARwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLzHAgAlWT6 NXEGtw/r1miKNGcopzvzILQ9oB8rKI9U9EL6tOf/y2V5oYee/GyQDb3ZdoPxxYYc Jf+RyiH1nMoqUIZiZJaf3bJXinDZ5+AdfE++UR2NBvqaNyC6u3r24jo1B/sagKbY tWgsYtRqHLD4IWi37MZrVyjBuF7u14Q07+uhjq6mX2O/tHpCYw/Q82tbeTRPyUf1 WQOAfD1kfBpW9PvAva5Iw9FWeXpCXRzwxnCZhYfGfqtuSw6CPBYLdbikqML6FZ7E DuTBb/8um1wK7Y9bgeIQC+CYjhYB5RXa1tDJRab2Js4luCvSR0w/CgHw26293tlv e2Q6UTrmHxP5U22DlokCPQQTAQgAJwUCWj1QMgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkK CwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6tJpD/4rrILH+meP07vrx8wW5eYuqCiP GYnh/CXxIF8eLrfbe5d4QRgtq+w6UeQPMyzKRIRiCoBXB2oJLBZHyxBPxZlg33dT MrEGn8QWKx2iNuz9rZMXyOSWFetuO01d/aUPd5BnbLbIyK5of8xCQlXM6KH8bc+9 gQ7edR9mfLTdvBf2FR522hg8BRBM1imKc3vO8v39+qIHHRjuiwxBBCAOhHtHRsZX ripS0uFA07dM46Oi/E8osjx6fQt/lH5z/PN+2adxYSrLSAXfr1oD3RxYNhuWgyGF L64/VCQb1YGjf0Z5MBPnWm9jgUoOY5K9eNSS0L83WeJjlF5+Q/WOgB+rb49Prm2D Feo9+S9f2V53Llz1WIspXJg6f+n9lmHE94MfQj1GAHCzI0FeL19lvM+LhD8jJSCb hrC3+yobyy/AUOs5Z3E+njjX1FF/VCVAs6iOa6i+XG+Y1hh3ir2y1kckJ5auT10M SU8GEZu9ayU4M3o3N9yxOjaoP0NuQ4MMLL/n/u4u94AeZaHPNBXn/hVfVRRmpRXt GKvJtFAEppGEYezB+bLKIm6XlpPkhnwYzleLZ7AMEco2C6QM8QPB3g3JpS3sqRhA 5rEP4lL16BmijmF+CHoPE/zwgKZbKpyVDqvIW5IDgvfIC2X4pbZDRvGIUKaGSB4+ ksZgUUnNyvfQr2p7jokCMwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJb tySbAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSeKkQAJm44jt1kwHgQgeDBKdjdvl0AjE0xVEQxriZ6lP/ l//34YT0auFfzsYIrChSpQXAEtobBAr4Ohw1Us+BZe+H5P8vm6LRuPwozC3SjwfX 4Iec8+9ot6tIVg4sbedDSgb/CCFVjsmIGcQ1P73JLJTBJ6mxYCV/gn3QC6bwDOFo 7kD9FDHCjRN8XfhHQ4Q9cYyt06uF31qG/aumgWYC9geCGgAwiHgwxNYb9GoJ0iZj CROwbYvLTcQgsVUW2bTmsVR13UVKDsdl02sRV7qcVYW6R0a3Ra8KudX+nt25H5DR Gd382KZ5W8pydsy/viTvD9z6v0ulChBYxAedIvGIClrhbxlLEPmIg4ImVOLGqsUg Vm32J95WOjEkk4PEZ12xSDBtwhSJqmJNboWlfmw43KdIbY8zNhffIO3N6O7FsdGx mqyHeLoTpqY+ySVUPpbuyW8ujnI/J//+6hdTZ9dQsEJQlWngKuWOQ5ma58MPSN88 zllsqhZAFQjNxqnkSzL6ZQ+v/jvuRRe16B80AeO55DsmbWsMv/YLLD1mSi7+Khy2 EtMBhgojWwrGMvdLN6X3mnzNJEscYyLxM9tSk+iySP2sLthK0BVgpAzBSdaf/ezI z60P+neHDzteNFf8Mn7lmgYk1amvZoJ29s5+n2HwxyRL5dVMyMdyQmntubbctfqr Z0tIiQGcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gnCYMAJY4FeIYjlIXGghFWzsB 4fYwK1+iaFpU3fSto5qcrqVtVPjXpwqczqBWeXGyQxiB0kan4OVAXydIeaP8EAuF CA7paP3s9STLJBO3KurkwyRkPW5zo0X7xVqaVToRsX2Ul98KVJoHYQD1KdezEtwl vpNwiiBr42AYR751Vm6JBVAbQXuFpB3c8bUV0OkkRxNFtL8/2PieHar58n5dntGk bPlPkztahsFqktgacIgXHX5vaT+7YeeZ1DWLOYjGO0wNhkOSeroCmxwJUikU7joB p823L7r5KfpqWTPpSCzVstQKZUGmmoE1qCswY/Ud5wvp9SccpIILkRXj0rZRtfnE 5MpL3hjmtNzfDd9qIsJtBJlSB2hZwAsVm1l+EWN9hG3tqyA43niUMy2n6q690of3 berSiQ+kvY/aC9Hx8I+bKzOV9/J2VUTqfaPZa4Uy2rVX5Q2p69n/PMj7mEer0rCL 3j9V16J9c+s0BSkXoKdtYdB0TWVhBgUybd9qtYcwHWvhP7QuU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJy ZWxsIDxzdGVwaGVuQHRvbGVyYW50bmV0d29ya3MuY29tPokCPQQTAQgAJwUCWj1R WgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6jsc EADEcB0WQEZn2AkrzDs1RhL0Lp6cZi0BigofkbcGfdhJyMSs19C0dhvncrAFClVI 6/Udw3yFtDyYtOCf2W3M3A1K6/RfEizCLzTsdFIhni9gOJLlUpXViQtgrlstjk7h qVV3Ooz4BlCqS4cG7rfqf4LQQPpTAuFUEV9I28FBUB2irqC+v4gTysIgpMw0bA1y BU9sX5jE/tRkzqnuzZrkwiobDtRFJ9qp+7O2JtcY4EsVtLAsaodJKc5cF8R4OvB1 n66vxxcgg9Eh4JNWZ47xsaCmAGo1Bcb2jIY35OtgAL7gCGLRSMKTtAaPy1/fEgIq hCljJ9x40Fkn/3r2BX21WC9HFSPFTBz2RluLRzxdgxOrkYK8EiHUPoE5b1AEzZKw 2AbeXfr57f5zYsN3IqfbQLUjMYtUN1wK3Pjb+idD972wyXMWt8uOzlI7b9Ocu+nY m2whBfJv9Pmp3QYTmPz+LB9lH65VNVUSxSXVr5iWXO3qx1HtEiGEqkporMQCTh3T 5Ud3PvMSRBFFKNs9WhJ/Lxz+SV30WLwG6dr5mQqlzAhb4Phc/zekZyXRdS/oDKrB LUucS36O//49JeyRi1QvOfxnfmIqRIAf/k3PoYJmTo5E82//r5Qj3YGlRu78ba0H Arxs+ACD6AnEHHcbswpbtVEKYzlSu0Ar0Dc7vRWM/IyQdIkBHAQQAQgABgUCWj1S oAAKCRAvPIc2gF+NosIsB/9f/29FNla3BJfGIEIDnhrqGD0i9bSa89SqBd++uG06 TQgW5wsqtNcrwn81yZTq6XE6i9VtD4GKfqC0d4KZJr9bnbeD81cI64VOdL8zJWJs 0vj5EIXCobKyX74Kb4uePUyZqwT2Q74I116u/HwA9/FXsPo5isbh4ZqD4t0VHpWk mfq1FPT9a/JPyX46qKqB2Fce/7Qy+SQP1NfkuUlbhUH/JG9aSSYvk3lznNiH41x9 M+FDlL106itXOubrl3oi2fT3fsSedq7uzt+IV0DQEeNaoQAUuwEhdB8IWOMqN2wo DjGVKJftfsSWY9ilZrnDBNDrp0vRqcx33LUMkIw4d7iBiQIzBBABCAAdFiEEfhcK BFyEz0YOK3mgEO952f2DUxIFAlu3JJwACgkQEO952f2DUxJjuw/6ApHSsVTWD4a0 H6FJ23A9Ftpy+aXZ4vYlzkSrfsn2ECrEfK3lXQh/uzwjJUDYZeB1/BQsFZtcYNQO JSSHbQ49BFRLwb1J/wBZG4bbmrkLxnNbKDKQvzxEpclkMW0Dj0J6o7kGrmzIGGrh B+JJN99AcineHRug8ZSFIERRCmigxdhAKU0BFD7P+5HNHltSL3DF1c2fFOf2JrgB KVoE+9RhMZjWNbYetFFLCkjXb5Rpay9zeMm1DxfSTGAnuOwUXW6qq4hnl5+VC/48 ceDZElLLfu7RQUZv44pkSTOWZs+iQoJiHMFHk9wPqyB2Vok1yJ2a2j27WhXrJlPw nZbgJO5RyWDG3p/eVmpl5Uuc2dsfIpR17KnAuWpghK6V+cyFncDoGCl/YG2Mvool sW08FiZh3Ej4dnJjj25TZkeFG74JJDXLvMYpJfSBGnmETv4Dhcm2xPqVMuFuL1qJ lMbVLrMo2GXeo03OzNyvbs+u8WLIaGm5hC7N1CXY8wZs4jo6OJ/expvnc07dEuws 4zT3AiWv3nIouWReRStZy9QkavDocqbyPmilcdPCYk4BsOlzpwwO74hNG7iyl0Kd AlwTxGQ7y0rJou6HYa1TmRhIEr3vKvlW+JfUUrqtjXgsuacTXo4+Ira2JUErL2cY zQMq1j4r1ZyhFnuz93s7Rsx/Nw0+0YuJAZwEEAEKAAYFAlvFx+UACgkQajsROTyk rWCJqwv+NLVPE4sD4sDA2/6Ek7UsRIUkg+S39fhqWsLc4rtw/mDunv8Un61I3K04 fZ2Ry4nF9hZM0a710UvXFbStvrzRJO3EAAcdJR9LTCd19e8UeruQbIee3YT91U4N kC9JMpecfq62/teOAU2e5P3fWYaLs5ZX7zCLwWuBcW2l3SyoljQczM85HhJ3XHm+ FnwQ6D9xRle+lvWTcuC9d1yAyUb8IOospcL2lJTmy8e3r79R24hPlSB4LDe0wEN8 AXbagrcAQZjwyaHyWxjJbTwZ0b43WGdfIqZ1ElOeoffbketPGRmWvx5xUvb2ALFB BdETzV270gs5XDJgJ1SIIKOyDADxwvroTe2jD8C/841eEql5QSow3s/U3zRqk3mt tto8Qw/DN71aeh6dmYSsvd2UjsHw/vofOPRBGxZLEkKTEvMnhmMW9hiKPkPia+Qg evYE020qpKSxLEdWA8nprHwxmGiDNesCfXSC6vm1qfyj5g8HzxSckq9ZaMhKMCo7 vxflUEDuuQINBFo9UDIBEAD6DdHQfMav8OXfhjTteoarOrlJTSdci727xiezGPuB HmpvceBRZgRasdbaMc4HJee+R9+5x/nLPCuy/DxDyIjwIUeJNgc+l7LjI9WfpHTD 8U4xxjvR5Mi7+ToQQUOUNuzT0O0pyuxP1uY3RehHEhOVfBZO59ipSeZL5iQC6T5M sK1SKfs51pLa5ToC1rc8tBJ4zZmxRAyZiYc/AH2uZ/6rYjTTkAn1DVI9DYo2D/zE 4bGjXdJW5pKphFB2lX3dG4I7ODi+5e1H6A/QpCu6z8/ZkIQ+9T1xcX/YwiFeA7Pb TuW/eITbMbI1eV3+fyym9aT7Rsflmp31Zxtr+sZwGGZf00ooMBFmqOS//NUQ/Vf3 vDUew1h5QU1yDaWT3NApvi+XWPH9TPy6TMfZA2FThHf11sX/gDBa5JWQZbptPEcm oazpiKZt91CrFPOaoXDPck/Q61dfmr/oPikfByYnASIM3OwEuXqyQ9JDRfKrem5r +oA/wxWb5jELElAhOpnyqMMvOh7uz1foUssL8MAv2TGXmxpVJ8Nu4je6wf96Z22f Q0D38zud+CKH3bMP3ayXXJBcdPoENrzFbWP5FTg/4TTDJ3vOAHZR5iCunYghx8b7 Ffa4UbkwlD+dh8GiIAtvT51Ac0cO0Wc0Zjc57zPUz1zloMbf+zb1Bsn7DuEQoqj1 gwARAQABiQIlBBgBCAAPBQJaPVAyAhsMBQkJlCYAAAoJEFqy+vF7FyvqrC8P/1tF 6TeR83xD6MasqXyrBjwcLmziaF0Mlkj8k/YUiZ/knb53n97xQnh9yxPv0TT8Wpfd n3BmvqGyh8+ouHX9jMOxiRkMdNhIauVYY/8jmRfBSYWcFkfMzdYasvdLtmYJgx25 2HKTFdeOrszoOjWjEzwmh+tca3AFMu/nB++/KAmi5UJV7zsZ7uYJ5jm97LV5SLjN JIXXM+lHqCDrjDaDhNczmq1LCRlU6/WDjvkuwaVhZG4lXxMDrvKnXMkjseQ2oKjw rIdfQM86H1z5J31lfhqop+of0cimcIsBgSCPu+h96LHuAzeRBCbDKeqrfZtAZAGs okRina9947fRWxXHh3O66ILmXKNRxxWbDkPvYnQWUat8SbSTDoPWrDIGDRIAypqY o3pcN2OE0C1chqgDZQxkr+9kYZQpupOAN2TR+fM7JvbO9coKI8Uqog8CopoMeDQk d0YjcqlB1E0svODHTzcSoRzogDBYDqNLP7qVkNXpcOAXSVioBgiSDf7o5RdS/qmU yXBIeq6I5z8xBcd+BQ/n/9Frkm6K7IKP3ngUP4wEoiPx5ZE5+fPIScGmVUcZIMhk vMvem9XXh1yyhqN14gfjmLwPGdWbrgG8QUe0s2WeWIyss6uTiyF+ZbJSo2XOKVc3 YFMVUUfgyudqAV1wWdZinUk+H3pkqOKoHAy/8fST =3DYzQY -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- --------------8C31121E74A7E985B5E86B66-- --5FHaxrQY4h4rzM6QdR4S06RdK7U7cdkSd-- --34jHreXhSsw2vlaLm7hyE4cX1AaPj9bUx Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAl39dAYACgkQWrL68XsX K+rvhRAArCsKgpaCyQPcSe2UXRQy3wRBFjDGSyFkBljRWnw4KoVUTI+/80dqBLtL LkJvuWlklS7MGRRT75cxW68VnqJp7ez/JW231E1RKVMaeUzTa5jWuJbhfq6LuySf t2daFWi4uZ6USMJShh5v0JAuPFHlfj+qoSo32cuI4Ir+VDw6P80vmHAzOU6fRhKh jJa9HYC2FemKg6QjnpblUW0AOmIsFSEOOSq6u+NV5B85ASRoQm/MvF0FZEqSa46D EVbky/s47VyXCJOaUR2g3Yk/enYm5F/XHWeeLhE7O0elIl7Hcyngj+raephA03Vr f5XbHzsdBoZbfdndjldKpx2LhDXIrOjuLI5QcOhB9/fTHCqPCsp8JZ5yRzcDVar5 ZT+U57TZxcw1uMdr5vLwzHlwvwI5via+aC95OfnQ5yygC+xlHVHxdrBHcpVgBNqz dJZYYAnTWGOwIiK3494BupysUku0j7q38NbKaQlw8SXoD6QblTxeblf4zxDDGyH/ S/Khw+b461GKK/LLzhlPODcY1+OX3V/UodQaKvOngRUz8Xya+BrOYW/xlNzeyP4/ QEcx2N4kgNTS+nvKWSTQNs3CmTbH0ePuMoq/R7ZmsllWYCv05d1l1aWcd7kGpQNM 634mOJ2JCIjXwKg8rVOvzuMQe8x3HXGTymHXWjasv9FfCwWXYF4= =nQh5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --34jHreXhSsw2vlaLm7hyE4cX1AaPj9bUx-- From nobody Fri Dec 20 17:25:22 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEAE71209EE for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 17:25:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.965 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.965 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_SBL_CSS=3.335, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KshNBTLlVQGx for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 17:25:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 65E8D1209EB for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 17:25:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4976BE47; Sat, 21 Dec 2019 01:25:17 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GKByJabNLFdU; Sat, 21 Dec 2019 01:25:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E310DBE3E; Sat, 21 Dec 2019 01:25:15 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1576891516; bh=S7GPZWRAXbnBFjMvwWUlI4PiGpV5Pin0NxFyHv4hBug=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=tIfOv2dBG2LDi75cUX2F1p3RCXO5Fi3qgwCr2+cNwV3lmMIOfhr18Pg/GGeFnDZpP WPvBYDanmgYUBKKzdFoUF+UXHBqQIM1geKxGiXPX9Tw1pAAuF5kKIUwDtKUbEpgjvf 8pMbvEkY7+FlzG0xwCktgXtwWb8rngdVGUNBVSx0= To: Brian E Carpenter , architecture-discuss@iab.org References: From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABtDJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPokCQAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxLkCDQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: <6ce31ff9-88d2-bf18-b217-8f6d0b9e2895@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2019 01:25:15 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.2.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="vPYS2pI1f1s8zITnCEzY9tbNDnxveXfke" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2019 01:25:21 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --vPYS2pI1f1s8zITnCEzY9tbNDnxveXfke Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="yAkNuwCvLztefZ50yn8iatA54IqJbY1sV"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Brian E Carpenter , architecture-discuss@iab.org Message-ID: <6ce31ff9-88d2-bf18-b217-8f6d0b9e2895@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience References: In-Reply-To: --yAkNuwCvLztefZ50yn8iatA54IqJbY1sV Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------424A33978C91DFE422541594" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------424A33978C91DFE422541594 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 20/12/2019 19:14, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Good topic.=20 Great. Is this a topic where you'd be willing to do work in this space in an IAB programme? (To be clear: I'm not asking to try lure you into doing work, but because this seems like a blindingly obvious topic on which work ought be done that might also be a topic where nobody is sufficiently motivated to go and actually do the work;-) > Resilience is a broad church and I'm not sure > that "for example OPSAWG and DNSOP" doesn't imply a narrower > scope than you intend. For example... I would definitely add > ANIMA there, since one of the main goals of autonomic networking > is resilience to unexpected events. In fact that's why we often > speak of the need for an ANIMA ecosystem, because natural ecosystems > are intrinsically resilient. Sure - OPSAWG and DNSOP are just examples. ANIMA may well be another or even better one. The main point in adding mention of those wasn't to validate their relevance but to just say that this programme would defer to any IETF WG where a relevant one exists. So I don't think we need an exhaustive list of relevant IETF WGs on whose lawn to not tread, but of course better wording is welcome any time. Cheers, S. >=20 > Regards > Brian >=20 > On 21-Dec-19 02:32, Stephen Farrell wrote: >> >> Hiya, >> >> The IAB are considering starting up a programme on Internet >> resilience as described at [1]. We'd love to get feedback >> on that idea, the text at [1] and to find out if people >> would like to participate and what topics you might suggest >> be considered (or even better, what you'd actually do work >> on yourself:-). >> >> There's no specific deadline for this, but the IAB will >> consider this further in the new year, so if you could >> take a few minutes to share your thoughts on this before >> or over the holidays that'd be great. >> >> Thanks, >> S. >> >> >> [1] https://github.com/intarchboard/resilience/ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Architecture-discuss mailing list >> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss >> --------------424A33978C91DFE422541594 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9t lyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQAB tCFTdGVwaGVuIEZhcnJlbGwgPHN0ZXBoZW5AamVsbC5pZT6JAj0EEwEIACcFAlo9 UYwCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQWrL68XsXK+qG CxAApYHWYgGOIL3G6/OpkejdAkQoCVQAK8LJUSf6vzwost4iVfxIKcKW/3RqKNKk rRl8beJ7j1CWXAz9+VXAOsE9+zNxXIDgGA7HlvJnhffl+qwibVgiHgUcJFhCSbBr sjC+1uULaTU8zYEyET//GOGPLF+X+degkE/sesh4zcEAjF7fGPnlncdCCH3tvPZZ sdTcjwOCRVonKsDgQzBTCMz/RPBfEFX44HZx4g1UQAcCA4xlucY8QkJEyCrSNGpG nvGK8DcGSmnstl1/a9fnlhpdFxieX3oY2phJ1WKkYTn6Advrek3UP71CKxpgtPmk d3iUUz/VZa0Cv6YxQXskspRDVEvdCMYSQBtJPQ4y2+5UxVR9GIQXenwYp9AP2niv Voh+ITsDWWeWnnvYMq07rSDjq0nGdj41MJkNX+Yb2PXVyXItcj5ybE3T2+y3pSBG FEZYJGuaL4NwtBJFMOdOtBmUOPbetS2971EL3Izxb7ibOZWDwexv+8R6SWYfP1wV N3p46RyBQuXqJV8ccE11m6vtZTGSYgnLUUFZMRQYH+0hwuYe0T3AA18xDdSYsa8v ovCCd3l5S4UNzIM2PMChqGrEzKapUpZg7+8ACcxRU3b9Ihd7WYjJ+pQPCoWYKozv tEvenbNpE/govO/ED3B14e+R2yevRPjRrsN7PJzSf15fQLuJARwEEAEIAAYFAlo9 UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLrSwf+MIHbFRQ4O5cmLYR5sIByWelN3SuRN/gW8rpKo9Ok Cz6An8uV/iCXy5tNMLzzi0BFl8f22DwBcC5qy9qnlIAdogWam1qWoTAoAD8veEqm uKhYrqJsCcAyNrKYmK0hP3rpHxx1LySDmKYXmw/8qtBXKHTouMm+5tSsznhykRMT AAr2p7PSaHgo+hIVaW/rKSspHjDhhZS+G9mtOZad1IH29M6G1Q1NCO0Ywe8krKLQ IAQlFxtgvOqpPOZNzeKBa/+KbE8TGgMWrkOhC8OeEM5PVzdDhlhD9kPzB/pCKDF5 DofJ/ZRqnDpbKPQ0bsW38AOig3kOc0A27awiBEw3urqR1YkCMwQQAQgAHRYhBH4X CgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJbtyScAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSI/oP/0A9J9nrnBMq Zpm857lfYWw+rshLK+tyeP4OQeOqnDFvs9jePpcyJLG3DF2r6VbVKPQq+AE6Uf5h cJBDEN6BjEhRPSbLcqG3A1cz/nNwm8rPmNp+oKhmaBBQGxwciMLmzgynsDydnjPp MyEs04zvsbsl4vrp2095o105l8KcrrxQrioFjbwveGwHQK9bxJKhx9D+gIk+MouB ur45UDKTZkMZrr9FGrtkyXCGAxvKdcNC5Oa8z9sj1rcUJfG/OpVAMWhArdlZbFUQ yoX6pU2Zb1CR2qpWAVerGSfBhmfCyStjARqaKxlftjO+Bj3Jj73Cr5eqej3qB5+V 4BCsPjr4RLvVbYUCPsRdxWc+nBLlfVYkRURu21g1hFm5KFPjgUkyo1s4vjUOY8Dy I+xLGF7f/IhUBG6l+Vswhpwu7ydalZkeFiPx5xna5NfbEYxvsIf71DvipGvIOaHv X4egWoFgm8n/9c3rcMxJtpwHPSsUt5dgLsyu6VE0IbvOAc3dN7CWJ355DVFJq9Zg 2YVf0izSpyyzJeGsgkfjW6xpmdvZxuT2UcN4BTcm6vYqueASGrb3lfhzC5gpeVsc /MoSjTS65vNWbpzONZWMZuLEFraxWJzC0JrDK3NCd0VN3kstqGkVbUIiYOnUm8Vu 4zoVMLlGWzHLIGoPRG2nRezn1YyNfyb5iQGcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8 pK1gE7QL/ApC5P68W5DrI1787WJVZv1u4t/g39vTr7Xer3UMTVQg10vpa7pmqOGh jIDzDMg3Pe3K3M7fVzfAlUA1qw6ne4RCueVoRKpubeF4AlYbMr0K6hNCPjt5uAxm bBVuejKTc6pru5rv5gKL0nDbr+Snft5xt7juBLSSimw0/41sZnkjCxo9rF/RA/v6 +uWyK171RKmsEYu8fFtw1eqUNt/Xj792TUixE3pxXheNtQtZGk/9P3W83ChhG4Fh 5EQsn0pIh9wZIAbMRLpgRKyW87fWHZC8/YH8h7afarvn9Thl5pFUldCe22mNJj6K LChn2aEHQd+PdY1GBpZEcmNEUPuovwzatM0h64hCzTm41eDqRfihZVBT7TbfXQnv 8rywa42Mk756RGzzEZcQEhwQXZcMQUfxIQQ2VyJo0zG36VdZTQF7TF/4Lz7/3cJ5 6jOIm+dwPXtu+C2wAQuD4USOLt4JWPYpqzDfHYJIND/497P9Z9SuQeahr2ez3DRB g3qsHEjBV7QyU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsICgyMDE3KSA8c3RlcGhlbi5mYXJyZWxs QGNzLnRjZC5pZT6JAkAEEwEIACoCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwEC HgECF4AFAlo+o3cCGQEACgkQWrL68XsXK+qO0A//ZsfQzyXrZlu/eEV5jU620yeO M3P7SW3C3UQYdCgZ/TlvxGgKow5oDSXgjMiUyq9csGqbPBxlDYSxFZHNeDVKYIuP 2ZK24tw5k6duTh4+sFwUualTMlcp0zBCIzn3hRcsRvuPKHfl5+6oOi0+xqx3jX/s /69L/fvHmdSKet5LIUAxoYaZkTCruFrPWb01tgAl5JExWkhmCY98iD+EeiIMAWBj Mw1xV+p0uCwNbN6XDzcToK7wsm+tAIiWUy3DpP60a6WbVwdV0HNt2WZq5U5Jdh2k 4S+sN2CnYk4tTW7jHjsWarV3FLISCOObADZuB7ljU4kYfdwZ+WzenXY4LGlxGQSl AblGjwZe4EIkCXAJUtzJhoFUuGaF/PlWjxqV3UFRcgTERZTijguVyREre8GNERNg vDxZvuXssEjvz9X5JfcIZDIJpdzhLiEIj9noUbfx1SzB5KDPQj0O7elMHa1671/r wWcpGr/MfVPTOik4H7F8rcVJelceZTzC4tvya7M+jM4fyFWWt8Y4atTixUiP7U9o 4uBZCQ0GzvsmFA4XLqn2pA5rVizMXnGbGOjufAP/efEJ4ul3qvjYe8ye8DXEDjKA xo/tuHYtk19XCi83QzFhWls5TT+XQeVTMEvVqo9Wek8yoxo67qvLKKqIcG9givQd 8MxYNAbNYgSPtkbhZ8SJARwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLzHAgAlWT6 NXEGtw/r1miKNGcopzvzILQ9oB8rKI9U9EL6tOf/y2V5oYee/GyQDb3ZdoPxxYYc Jf+RyiH1nMoqUIZiZJaf3bJXinDZ5+AdfE++UR2NBvqaNyC6u3r24jo1B/sagKbY tWgsYtRqHLD4IWi37MZrVyjBuF7u14Q07+uhjq6mX2O/tHpCYw/Q82tbeTRPyUf1 WQOAfD1kfBpW9PvAva5Iw9FWeXpCXRzwxnCZhYfGfqtuSw6CPBYLdbikqML6FZ7E DuTBb/8um1wK7Y9bgeIQC+CYjhYB5RXa1tDJRab2Js4luCvSR0w/CgHw26293tlv e2Q6UTrmHxP5U22DlokCPQQTAQgAJwUCWj1QMgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkK CwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6tJpD/4rrILH+meP07vrx8wW5eYuqCiP GYnh/CXxIF8eLrfbe5d4QRgtq+w6UeQPMyzKRIRiCoBXB2oJLBZHyxBPxZlg33dT MrEGn8QWKx2iNuz9rZMXyOSWFetuO01d/aUPd5BnbLbIyK5of8xCQlXM6KH8bc+9 gQ7edR9mfLTdvBf2FR522hg8BRBM1imKc3vO8v39+qIHHRjuiwxBBCAOhHtHRsZX ripS0uFA07dM46Oi/E8osjx6fQt/lH5z/PN+2adxYSrLSAXfr1oD3RxYNhuWgyGF L64/VCQb1YGjf0Z5MBPnWm9jgUoOY5K9eNSS0L83WeJjlF5+Q/WOgB+rb49Prm2D Feo9+S9f2V53Llz1WIspXJg6f+n9lmHE94MfQj1GAHCzI0FeL19lvM+LhD8jJSCb hrC3+yobyy/AUOs5Z3E+njjX1FF/VCVAs6iOa6i+XG+Y1hh3ir2y1kckJ5auT10M SU8GEZu9ayU4M3o3N9yxOjaoP0NuQ4MMLL/n/u4u94AeZaHPNBXn/hVfVRRmpRXt GKvJtFAEppGEYezB+bLKIm6XlpPkhnwYzleLZ7AMEco2C6QM8QPB3g3JpS3sqRhA 5rEP4lL16BmijmF+CHoPE/zwgKZbKpyVDqvIW5IDgvfIC2X4pbZDRvGIUKaGSB4+ ksZgUUnNyvfQr2p7jokCMwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJb tySbAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSeKkQAJm44jt1kwHgQgeDBKdjdvl0AjE0xVEQxriZ6lP/ l//34YT0auFfzsYIrChSpQXAEtobBAr4Ohw1Us+BZe+H5P8vm6LRuPwozC3SjwfX 4Iec8+9ot6tIVg4sbedDSgb/CCFVjsmIGcQ1P73JLJTBJ6mxYCV/gn3QC6bwDOFo 7kD9FDHCjRN8XfhHQ4Q9cYyt06uF31qG/aumgWYC9geCGgAwiHgwxNYb9GoJ0iZj CROwbYvLTcQgsVUW2bTmsVR13UVKDsdl02sRV7qcVYW6R0a3Ra8KudX+nt25H5DR Gd382KZ5W8pydsy/viTvD9z6v0ulChBYxAedIvGIClrhbxlLEPmIg4ImVOLGqsUg Vm32J95WOjEkk4PEZ12xSDBtwhSJqmJNboWlfmw43KdIbY8zNhffIO3N6O7FsdGx mqyHeLoTpqY+ySVUPpbuyW8ujnI/J//+6hdTZ9dQsEJQlWngKuWOQ5ma58MPSN88 zllsqhZAFQjNxqnkSzL6ZQ+v/jvuRRe16B80AeO55DsmbWsMv/YLLD1mSi7+Khy2 EtMBhgojWwrGMvdLN6X3mnzNJEscYyLxM9tSk+iySP2sLthK0BVgpAzBSdaf/ezI z60P+neHDzteNFf8Mn7lmgYk1amvZoJ29s5+n2HwxyRL5dVMyMdyQmntubbctfqr Z0tIiQGcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gnCYMAJY4FeIYjlIXGghFWzsB 4fYwK1+iaFpU3fSto5qcrqVtVPjXpwqczqBWeXGyQxiB0kan4OVAXydIeaP8EAuF CA7paP3s9STLJBO3KurkwyRkPW5zo0X7xVqaVToRsX2Ul98KVJoHYQD1KdezEtwl vpNwiiBr42AYR751Vm6JBVAbQXuFpB3c8bUV0OkkRxNFtL8/2PieHar58n5dntGk bPlPkztahsFqktgacIgXHX5vaT+7YeeZ1DWLOYjGO0wNhkOSeroCmxwJUikU7joB p823L7r5KfpqWTPpSCzVstQKZUGmmoE1qCswY/Ud5wvp9SccpIILkRXj0rZRtfnE 5MpL3hjmtNzfDd9qIsJtBJlSB2hZwAsVm1l+EWN9hG3tqyA43niUMy2n6q690of3 berSiQ+kvY/aC9Hx8I+bKzOV9/J2VUTqfaPZa4Uy2rVX5Q2p69n/PMj7mEer0rCL 3j9V16J9c+s0BSkXoKdtYdB0TWVhBgUybd9qtYcwHWvhP7QuU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJy ZWxsIDxzdGVwaGVuQHRvbGVyYW50bmV0d29ya3MuY29tPokCPQQTAQgAJwUCWj1R WgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6jsc EADEcB0WQEZn2AkrzDs1RhL0Lp6cZi0BigofkbcGfdhJyMSs19C0dhvncrAFClVI 6/Udw3yFtDyYtOCf2W3M3A1K6/RfEizCLzTsdFIhni9gOJLlUpXViQtgrlstjk7h qVV3Ooz4BlCqS4cG7rfqf4LQQPpTAuFUEV9I28FBUB2irqC+v4gTysIgpMw0bA1y BU9sX5jE/tRkzqnuzZrkwiobDtRFJ9qp+7O2JtcY4EsVtLAsaodJKc5cF8R4OvB1 n66vxxcgg9Eh4JNWZ47xsaCmAGo1Bcb2jIY35OtgAL7gCGLRSMKTtAaPy1/fEgIq hCljJ9x40Fkn/3r2BX21WC9HFSPFTBz2RluLRzxdgxOrkYK8EiHUPoE5b1AEzZKw 2AbeXfr57f5zYsN3IqfbQLUjMYtUN1wK3Pjb+idD972wyXMWt8uOzlI7b9Ocu+nY m2whBfJv9Pmp3QYTmPz+LB9lH65VNVUSxSXVr5iWXO3qx1HtEiGEqkporMQCTh3T 5Ud3PvMSRBFFKNs9WhJ/Lxz+SV30WLwG6dr5mQqlzAhb4Phc/zekZyXRdS/oDKrB LUucS36O//49JeyRi1QvOfxnfmIqRIAf/k3PoYJmTo5E82//r5Qj3YGlRu78ba0H Arxs+ACD6AnEHHcbswpbtVEKYzlSu0Ar0Dc7vRWM/IyQdIkBHAQQAQgABgUCWj1S oAAKCRAvPIc2gF+NosIsB/9f/29FNla3BJfGIEIDnhrqGD0i9bSa89SqBd++uG06 TQgW5wsqtNcrwn81yZTq6XE6i9VtD4GKfqC0d4KZJr9bnbeD81cI64VOdL8zJWJs 0vj5EIXCobKyX74Kb4uePUyZqwT2Q74I116u/HwA9/FXsPo5isbh4ZqD4t0VHpWk mfq1FPT9a/JPyX46qKqB2Fce/7Qy+SQP1NfkuUlbhUH/JG9aSSYvk3lznNiH41x9 M+FDlL106itXOubrl3oi2fT3fsSedq7uzt+IV0DQEeNaoQAUuwEhdB8IWOMqN2wo DjGVKJftfsSWY9ilZrnDBNDrp0vRqcx33LUMkIw4d7iBiQIzBBABCAAdFiEEfhcK BFyEz0YOK3mgEO952f2DUxIFAlu3JJwACgkQEO952f2DUxJjuw/6ApHSsVTWD4a0 H6FJ23A9Ftpy+aXZ4vYlzkSrfsn2ECrEfK3lXQh/uzwjJUDYZeB1/BQsFZtcYNQO JSSHbQ49BFRLwb1J/wBZG4bbmrkLxnNbKDKQvzxEpclkMW0Dj0J6o7kGrmzIGGrh B+JJN99AcineHRug8ZSFIERRCmigxdhAKU0BFD7P+5HNHltSL3DF1c2fFOf2JrgB KVoE+9RhMZjWNbYetFFLCkjXb5Rpay9zeMm1DxfSTGAnuOwUXW6qq4hnl5+VC/48 ceDZElLLfu7RQUZv44pkSTOWZs+iQoJiHMFHk9wPqyB2Vok1yJ2a2j27WhXrJlPw nZbgJO5RyWDG3p/eVmpl5Uuc2dsfIpR17KnAuWpghK6V+cyFncDoGCl/YG2Mvool sW08FiZh3Ej4dnJjj25TZkeFG74JJDXLvMYpJfSBGnmETv4Dhcm2xPqVMuFuL1qJ lMbVLrMo2GXeo03OzNyvbs+u8WLIaGm5hC7N1CXY8wZs4jo6OJ/expvnc07dEuws 4zT3AiWv3nIouWReRStZy9QkavDocqbyPmilcdPCYk4BsOlzpwwO74hNG7iyl0Kd AlwTxGQ7y0rJou6HYa1TmRhIEr3vKvlW+JfUUrqtjXgsuacTXo4+Ira2JUErL2cY zQMq1j4r1ZyhFnuz93s7Rsx/Nw0+0YuJAZwEEAEKAAYFAlvFx+UACgkQajsROTyk rWCJqwv+NLVPE4sD4sDA2/6Ek7UsRIUkg+S39fhqWsLc4rtw/mDunv8Un61I3K04 fZ2Ry4nF9hZM0a710UvXFbStvrzRJO3EAAcdJR9LTCd19e8UeruQbIee3YT91U4N kC9JMpecfq62/teOAU2e5P3fWYaLs5ZX7zCLwWuBcW2l3SyoljQczM85HhJ3XHm+ FnwQ6D9xRle+lvWTcuC9d1yAyUb8IOospcL2lJTmy8e3r79R24hPlSB4LDe0wEN8 AXbagrcAQZjwyaHyWxjJbTwZ0b43WGdfIqZ1ElOeoffbketPGRmWvx5xUvb2ALFB BdETzV270gs5XDJgJ1SIIKOyDADxwvroTe2jD8C/841eEql5QSow3s/U3zRqk3mt tto8Qw/DN71aeh6dmYSsvd2UjsHw/vofOPRBGxZLEkKTEvMnhmMW9hiKPkPia+Qg evYE020qpKSxLEdWA8nprHwxmGiDNesCfXSC6vm1qfyj5g8HzxSckq9ZaMhKMCo7 vxflUEDuuQINBFo9UDIBEAD6DdHQfMav8OXfhjTteoarOrlJTSdci727xiezGPuB HmpvceBRZgRasdbaMc4HJee+R9+5x/nLPCuy/DxDyIjwIUeJNgc+l7LjI9WfpHTD 8U4xxjvR5Mi7+ToQQUOUNuzT0O0pyuxP1uY3RehHEhOVfBZO59ipSeZL5iQC6T5M sK1SKfs51pLa5ToC1rc8tBJ4zZmxRAyZiYc/AH2uZ/6rYjTTkAn1DVI9DYo2D/zE 4bGjXdJW5pKphFB2lX3dG4I7ODi+5e1H6A/QpCu6z8/ZkIQ+9T1xcX/YwiFeA7Pb TuW/eITbMbI1eV3+fyym9aT7Rsflmp31Zxtr+sZwGGZf00ooMBFmqOS//NUQ/Vf3 vDUew1h5QU1yDaWT3NApvi+XWPH9TPy6TMfZA2FThHf11sX/gDBa5JWQZbptPEcm oazpiKZt91CrFPOaoXDPck/Q61dfmr/oPikfByYnASIM3OwEuXqyQ9JDRfKrem5r +oA/wxWb5jELElAhOpnyqMMvOh7uz1foUssL8MAv2TGXmxpVJ8Nu4je6wf96Z22f Q0D38zud+CKH3bMP3ayXXJBcdPoENrzFbWP5FTg/4TTDJ3vOAHZR5iCunYghx8b7 Ffa4UbkwlD+dh8GiIAtvT51Ac0cO0Wc0Zjc57zPUz1zloMbf+zb1Bsn7DuEQoqj1 gwARAQABiQIlBBgBCAAPBQJaPVAyAhsMBQkJlCYAAAoJEFqy+vF7FyvqrC8P/1tF 6TeR83xD6MasqXyrBjwcLmziaF0Mlkj8k/YUiZ/knb53n97xQnh9yxPv0TT8Wpfd n3BmvqGyh8+ouHX9jMOxiRkMdNhIauVYY/8jmRfBSYWcFkfMzdYasvdLtmYJgx25 2HKTFdeOrszoOjWjEzwmh+tca3AFMu/nB++/KAmi5UJV7zsZ7uYJ5jm97LV5SLjN JIXXM+lHqCDrjDaDhNczmq1LCRlU6/WDjvkuwaVhZG4lXxMDrvKnXMkjseQ2oKjw rIdfQM86H1z5J31lfhqop+of0cimcIsBgSCPu+h96LHuAzeRBCbDKeqrfZtAZAGs okRina9947fRWxXHh3O66ILmXKNRxxWbDkPvYnQWUat8SbSTDoPWrDIGDRIAypqY o3pcN2OE0C1chqgDZQxkr+9kYZQpupOAN2TR+fM7JvbO9coKI8Uqog8CopoMeDQk d0YjcqlB1E0svODHTzcSoRzogDBYDqNLP7qVkNXpcOAXSVioBgiSDf7o5RdS/qmU yXBIeq6I5z8xBcd+BQ/n/9Frkm6K7IKP3ngUP4wEoiPx5ZE5+fPIScGmVUcZIMhk vMvem9XXh1yyhqN14gfjmLwPGdWbrgG8QUe0s2WeWIyss6uTiyF+ZbJSo2XOKVc3 YFMVUUfgyudqAV1wWdZinUk+H3pkqOKoHAy/8fST =3DYzQY -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- --------------424A33978C91DFE422541594-- --yAkNuwCvLztefZ50yn8iatA54IqJbY1sV-- --vPYS2pI1f1s8zITnCEzY9tbNDnxveXfke Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAl39dHsACgkQWrL68XsX K+q3phAAq9f1/VjSCbpFM6u75AN1s4ZnMWakHU4XIqxqka1/DkfCebE3N/oR+i+2 tZjskuBVmEq8X2QrjXPoo20B4KDyUo8+GnLPGQGWGgdEyngG21EYDlFlYhGo3N65 Rv8yKQDAt/tQ+HfqgJ/0cBPY/c1Sg4r+69zyPk7O+/G5OBCECVdvmd7BmJSFCLmY ad13M1JeUvNs2tQw1c7SrMRd0nucYQuFU7r10gVufGvoTX+cDTDTiZRvLCF7c2pu Jbiznzrhvosw0g/J6Ff574e4A3nbtSjuRDtGiehebvf/nO1ffW/sxck/Zk3kUVBY X2aQbtP/kBdpKsYS7Jzk4n5pemLpwIBuow/m7+xyed7THoqMUuCYvir074REqRmd yoLDNbI8AJDL2ffLF/iEm2Z0M8C7V7xPhwMk9SFQiB/tcAPAe35FvhJ1SQQfn143 0paAQdhAifwUuXB7Dx3ErEAtTM9cy070xDcRU1dgZa10wCSeQMbIB6qHnosU+LRv 6EWedkjgLByf0HfiRmZW+ZbGdBKnuIVGOGKjRA8CbVUj5Z024CxIbTvWUYH2bqEG yjBX18QrrlNiBqWHA86BlWlDHnJaLm2qcccA5O1wSkh13U/6tyykQgpT2RGMbnoy FebsPEYROCUpMBixABArT6xEqeB8imaYbpgACNSl+VwGpjZHMPw= =CXJJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --vPYS2pI1f1s8zITnCEzY9tbNDnxveXfke-- From nobody Mon Dec 23 00:00:36 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA723120074 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 00:00:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.648 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.648 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2RJr694P1QZh for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 00:00:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from ayla.bortzmeyer.org (ayla.bortzmeyer.org [92.243.4.211]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AADC8120018 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 00:00:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by ayla.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id 47FBDA029B; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 09:00:28 +0100 (CET) Received: by godin (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 8A26DEC0B1A; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 08:59:47 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 08:59:47 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Stephen Farrell Cc: architecture-discuss@iab.org Message-ID: <20191223075947.GA28090@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> References: <20191220171026.GA28942@sources.org> <03e742f4-2306-93af-e17c-d8af9a5fef6c@cs.tcd.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <03e742f4-2306-93af-e17c-d8af9a5fef6c@cs.tcd.ie> X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Ubuntu 18.04 (bionic) X-Charlie: Je suis Charlie User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 08:00:35 -0000 On Sat, Dec 21, 2019 at 01:23:18AM +0000, Stephen Farrell wrote a message of 271 lines which said: > > Indeed, the current project of charter seems to be more about > > robustness than about resilience. > > Sorry - I'm not really following any of the above comments. Can one > of you try explain some more? Typically, robustness is the ability to withstand shocks without cracking, and resilience is the ability, once you have cracked, to restart afterwards. I suggest that the word "robustness" is a better fit for what we are trying to achieve (an Internet that will keep going, may be in degraded mode, when problems/attacks occur). "Resilience" would be adapted for a (very hypothetical) case where everything was down and we try to resume activity. (Thought experiment: all the DNS root name servers were destroyed and we must agree on a new set, without beging able to communicate together, except by IP addresses.) From nobody Mon Dec 23 00:09:34 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 865B2120074 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 00:09:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.648 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.648 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4usDioQrVgiq for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 00:09:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from ayla.bortzmeyer.org (ayla.bortzmeyer.org [IPv6:2001:4b98:dc0:41:216:3eff:fe27:3d3f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3ADE212004A for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 00:09:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by ayla.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id D3537A029B; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 09:09:28 +0100 (CET) Received: by godin (Postfix, from userid 1000) id AA571EC0B1A; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 09:07:46 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 09:07:46 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Martin Thomson Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org, Jari Arkko Message-ID: <20191223080746.GB28090@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> References: <3db77634-6edf-4047-b758-f83a462420b7@www.fastmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3db77634-6edf-4047-b758-f83a462420b7@www.fastmail.com> X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Ubuntu 18.04 (bionic) X-Charlie: Je suis Charlie User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Centralization or diversity X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 08:09:32 -0000 On Wed, Nov 06, 2019 at 09:58:08AM +1100, Martin Thomson wrote a message of 25 lines which said: > But my experience with centralized services is that they aren't > centralized in the fault tolerance sense. If I look at the big > services, that scale is only achieved with careful distributed > systems design. I disagree. These systems are generally very homogeneous (software and, of course, human management) so they still have SPOF. An example is . Centralized management is good for the administrators (less work and better results) but may be dangerous for robustness. (That's why I don't like the whole idea of SDN.) > This draft really wants to say something less negative: that it values diversity on multiple axes. The draft covers: > > * fault domains geopolitical organizational > > To which I might add: > > * geographic > * implementation > * infrastructure (power, network, hardware) And software! Many DNS zones, for instance, can be completely taken down, if there is a 0-day vulnerability allowing to DoS all servers, which are of the same make and version. > Finally, I don't like the emphasis on DNS in this document. It only > serves to sensationalize. Well, I disagree with the analysis of the draft (centralization to a few public resolvers have nothing to do with DoH, it existed before) but the problem is real. Unfortunately, we don't lack examples of centralization. From nobody Mon Dec 23 01:12:15 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E68212008F for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 01:12:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=rad365.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cLncDpLKc8rY for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 01:12:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR04-DB3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr60065.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.6.65]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9C03D12008A for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 01:12:12 -0800 (PST) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=ekJU0cxWlhN/TM1oF430HfamduAReFAddzryN1lB9nBpP/PnqQ9llOyDjIoXCvLv8AgVffuogbp1s7fW9Yatkzl0tCDmJ/bkqW483bBvR0o3QuCRC4CKcxgQ6cX4YVJx3969r77RO2l+JjpjOja8MrzHTPZ/QiOz4PIgrD3S6o4WZmu/VLT7JSLNLpSOBvIZSSTNXvY0L9ILmfrA3rOdN7O+o2qjtaaqtcqcz0H2hkcWICnh+7qzRtpNaKVR3AHjKUsIyZuK9FW/ZDpfTvhtla789pXrIFKza0hn5rYzXWHbxu/yaVJs0ZIDY5lkt1Bx1CrAPZ5UwwTgg4qeC0El2w== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=yEIr1XzmehX6LweNXlcF6AMTi5KxuvpIe7jaQajiCEI=; b=SIRb6dFHCSBBrX239oam3woEeIpxFTaOO1UuArTDTC8d9CCMh0yiIgPoQ7n/iJZJiKSQmsHx16FNLgQU/gusEOzJDyYgFtJba1OYIKryq2B7ez+YRB0aeYgNPT0heb9PUYmZabo52bU6oSAak5rBn69nBl/CtrOA+QWsGkzZ1m5KLTV3cDUDWTVae5+ggrxNyhz+qhxoDzJCq1O46/sMlu/V6Im93ijI6HVLBkT5m/EK9tjfHFGFLSl98b7ztsUZo2hGm9zUmiBu14jvotI0md9LUhJrDrLlNRpn/i9a6ejZ93lE2fuRRqC0fJHkSizPo6+b0xX3hvFahh2BaAjVtA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=rad.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=rad.com; dkim=pass header.d=rad.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rad365.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-rad365-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=yEIr1XzmehX6LweNXlcF6AMTi5KxuvpIe7jaQajiCEI=; b=VotmW00+d2vx1kVI9s/eHia+pZakmNf5oE6rBq8am5ngZJvu7SBvnzXJe/aNxpoC50WwMyg/cbhtFK6kaCrUMsnkO1lsgVehyVCb9no6fliZmNZPPqCtFhuGtKwvi2gscCP5f+aVforSWDpQezVnPfhthOKc0RJ3I0rGgj9t8sk= Received: from AM6PR03MB5046.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (20.178.89.202) by AM6PR03MB5218.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.255.96.139) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2559.14; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 09:12:09 +0000 Received: from AM6PR03MB5046.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::ad07:d39:5019:51a9]) by AM6PR03MB5046.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::ad07:d39:5019:51a9%3]) with mapi id 15.20.2559.017; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 09:12:09 +0000 From: Yaakov Stein To: Stephane Bortzmeyer , Stephen Farrell CC: "architecture-discuss@iab.org" Thread-Topic: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience Thread-Index: AQHVuWcXNl5YNG2lAUuXjudeP7YMxKfHbBMg Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 09:12:09 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20191220171026.GA28942@sources.org> <03e742f4-2306-93af-e17c-d8af9a5fef6c@cs.tcd.ie> <20191223075947.GA28090@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> In-Reply-To: <20191223075947.GA28090@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=yaakov_s@rad.com; x-originating-ip: [82.166.71.126] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 6f7410dd-c1b2-4ae2-a2da-08d78788307c x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM6PR03MB5218: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8273; x-forefront-prvs: 0260457E99 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(4636009)(366004)(136003)(346002)(376002)(396003)(39850400004)(199004)(189003)(13464003)(9686003)(110136005)(316002)(33656002)(71200400001)(8676002)(81156014)(966005)(81166006)(8936002)(45080400002)(478600001)(4326008)(186003)(55016002)(66574012)(2906002)(66556008)(64756008)(66446008)(6506007)(66476007)(53546011)(52536014)(7696005)(66946007)(5660300002)(86362001)(26005)(76116006); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:AM6PR03MB5218; H:AM6PR03MB5046.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: rad.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: rad.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 6f7410dd-c1b2-4ae2-a2da-08d78788307c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 23 Dec 2019 09:12:09.3711 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f9047108-cc2c-4e48-97a3-43fad1b3bf9d X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: Umo6SoVKykdaY7RQ4NrUgfAdcXs/4VKL5aMsBfObm6HCpd3bWj58WdX69fGn0n91kXjWscLMb47rV+GFOB18Zw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM6PR03MB5218 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 09:12:14 -0000 Resilience is widely used in transport networks as a synonym for Automatic = Protection Switching, which typically replaces a failed path in less than 50 milliseconds. So, while I agree that resilience is the ability to respond to an actual fa= ilure, it is not hypothetical or necessarily of long time duration. Robustness is used in system design and computer science to mean the abilit= y to avoid failure despite disturbances or unexpected inputs. Failure is defined (e.g., G.805) as the inability to provide the service or= to meet the user's expectations. Note that unlike resilience, robustness is always with respect to some dist= urbance type, and that a system can be robust to X but not to Y. For example, a network designed to be robust with respect to link failures = will contain a lot of redundant links, but then it will not be robust with respect to increasing traffic levels (a= nd vice versa). Y(J)S -----Original Message----- From: Architecture-discuss [mailto:architecture-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] O= n Behalf Of Stephane Bortzmeyer Sent: 23/12/2019 10:00 To: Stephen Farrell Cc: architecture-discuss@iab.org Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience On Sat, Dec 21, 2019 at 01:23:18AM +0000, Stephen Farrell wrote a message of 271 lines which said: > > Indeed, the current project of charter seems to be more about=20 > > robustness than about resilience. >=20 > Sorry - I'm not really following any of the above comments. Can one=20 > of you try explain some more? Typically, robustness is the ability to withstand shocks without cracking, = and resilience is the ability, once you have cracked, to restart afterwards= . I suggest that the word "robustness" is a better fit for what we are tryi= ng to achieve (an Internet that will keep going, may be in degraded mode, w= hen problems/attacks occur). "Resilience" would be adapted for a (very hypo= thetical) case where everything was down and we try to resume activity. (Th= ought experiment: all the DNS root name servers were destroyed and we must agree = on a new set, without beging able to communicate together, except by IP add= resses.) _______________________________________________ Architecture-discuss mailing list Architecture-discuss@ietf.org https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.iet= f.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Farchitecture-discuss&data=3D01%7C01%7Cyaak= ov_s%40rad.com%7Cf65119756ea34c3adefc08d7877e387a%7Cf9047108cc2c4e4897a343f= ad1b3bf9d%7C1&sdata=3D%2F60sYdn%2Ba5FZ%2FCO5tyBP1quAAlLF2t7tanBy4Al41sU= %3D&reserved=3D0 From nobody Mon Dec 23 01:25:30 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0FD912008F for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 01:25:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.17 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.17 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m4iFeTkA--rl for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 01:25:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7E734120046 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 01:25:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 586EC548046; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 10:25:19 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 51A67440059; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 10:25:19 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 10:25:19 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Stephen Farrell Cc: architecture-discuss@iab.org Message-ID: <20191223092519.GA32894@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 09:25:28 -0000 Thanks for the initiative, Stephen 1. I strongly support the mission. IMHO, the Internet at large is still a pretty unreliable infrastructure mostly for non-(time)-critical consumption and commerce, and IMHO this needs to change. I am certainly happy to contibute to the program (see below for example points of my background). 2. Network and services resilience A Brian already alluded, there is more to Internet resilience than at e.g.: the naming level. a) Network resilience The most basic form of resilience i have helped to design and deploy use dual-path transmission for critical traffic (finance, video, military, industrial). That still is a maze of not well standardized or even documented approaches and protocols, and we are (IMHO) far away from realizing a vision, where for example a host stack itself could drive such level of resilience automatically (.e.g: MP-TCP not to increase throughput but resilience). But certainly, that overal issue of network-service resilience would be IMHO important to include into the program. Having bits in DetNet, bits in PANRG, and more bits in TSV and other WGs is not an architecture. b) Service resilience As Brian mentioned, ANIMA not only has ANI as a resilient operational plane, but it would also lend itself as a good framework to build further resilient networks and solutions. 3. Scope An interesting experience was in video networks where operators had to decide between sub-second fast convergence and sub 50 msec RSVP-TE tunnel protection. In the end, the per-interruption user experience impact difference was negligible and many operators simply wanted to reduce the total number of user visible interruptions to less than 1 interruption every 4 hour and ended up picking fast-convegence because it eliminated so many more bad-code and bad-operator action induced errors from the more complex to handle RSVP-TE solution. I bring this up just as an example to figure out what should be in scope of the program: User stories, (experience) metric required and design considerations that not only include pure "protocol" aspects (50 msec vs. sub-second), but also metrics such as code and operations complexity. Yes, some of these aspects are hard to specify let alone quantify, but that's why it should be an architecture program and not just a protocol specification program. 4. Politics and Openness IMHO, Resilience and related "metrics" of reliability are at the core of at least the public explanations of several political actions today such as US congress bills (e.g.: "Defending America's 5G Future") and US govt action (such as the Huawei EAR rulings). In face of these political challenges for open global collaboration, i would highly recommend to not charter a program like this as an "by-invitation-only" IAB program (as described in the current draft charter), but as an "everyone-is-welcome-to-contribute" program, more like an IETF working group. Otherwise, the program would be seen as yet another politically divisive step by those not invited to contribute. Cheers Toerless On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 01:32:57PM +0000, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Hiya, > > The IAB are considering starting up a programme on Internet > resilience as described at [1]. We'd love to get feedback > on that idea, the text at [1] and to find out if people > would like to participate and what topics you might suggest > be considered (or even better, what you'd actually do work > on yourself:-). > > There's no specific deadline for this, but the IAB will > consider this further in the new year, so if you could > take a few minutes to share your thoughts on this before > or over the holidays that'd be great. > > Thanks, > S. > > > [1] https://github.com/intarchboard/resilience/ pub RSA 4096/7B172BEA 2017-12-22 Stephen Farrell (2017) > sub RSA 4096/36CB8BB6 2017-12-22 > > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Mon Dec 23 06:45:30 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48A581200B7 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 06:45:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=open-xchange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4THTZGSsjclg for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 06:45:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx4.open-xchange.com (alcatraz.open-xchange.com [87.191.39.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 97BB31200C1 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 06:45:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from open-xchange.com (imap.open-xchange.com [10.20.30.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx4.open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B21E36A256; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 15:45:17 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=open-xchange.com; s=201705; t=1577112317; bh=mtEnwOqYoZa9R0Id3j0X5lFln/aNfCkD+fObgVLymsQ=; h=Date:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=dk7YAeApo9HqdsT6UR85aEb6kWGTD125N/hWHgUQWoa8sYOY6Cz102R1y43XgcehR V+sXS60Rd/tSnerfRvltVnuJrvTzgXyvuhhXIKTnlrjfhUnHykJLp/EjmAOjFQo1ea TCTyzFa2Nn8iulQahTKLgQaN6aZH/GBttGpJQAMBD/47Sme87eDSjxpTVoe+KJ/nnL iXUVRckwYVcnN8IKEYkGA73AZcwPcZ5xDs167nDTEBiI99DVXLV6M6J4hv+W8g8IZv XUsH3ZEaIpEvehFNmUpdrbv+muDKZvlBrkAB3/eVQOlO3sizoqIOWFTgXpBiG4YX2v fDoCH7N6hIZXw== Received: from appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com (appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com [10.20.28.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A54443C047B; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 15:45:17 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 15:45:17 +0100 (CET) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Stephen Farrell , architecture-discuss@iab.org Message-ID: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.3-Rev3 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 14:45:23 -0000 > Il 20/12/2019 14:32 Stephen Farrell ha scritto: > > > Hiya, > > The IAB are considering starting up a programme on Internet > resilience as described at [1]. We'd love to get feedback > on that idea, the text at [1] and to find out if people > would like to participate and what topics you might suggest > be considered (or even better, what you'd actually do work > on yourself:-). > > There's no specific deadline for this, but the IAB will > consider this further in the new year, so if you could > take a few minutes to share your thoughts on this before > or over the holidays that'd be great. A question: given the insistence in the charter on lack of diversity as a key threat to resilience, do I take it well that this programme is meant to subsume the past discussions on centralization and consolidation of the Internet? And a comment: this might indeed turn out as a set of parallel work threads at different layers of the stack, but since you explicitly mention DNS(OP) as an area of interest, and since another discussion just reminded me of it, I note that ICANN already has a long-standing committee (SSAC) discussing issues that threaten the stability of the DNS; perhaps other organizations also have other relevant groups. You could give some thought at how to recognize and involve them when appropriate. -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy From nobody Mon Dec 23 11:36:20 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41456120CD9 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 11:36:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lPxjhgOzy6M6 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 11:36:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x102d.google.com (mail-pj1-x102d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A57EB12004C for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 11:36:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x102d.google.com with SMTP id a6so183485pjh.2 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 11:36:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=JAIBMYrTdhqXp9LI0I1eB172Wl/B3Gmd/M6nCHV3tc8=; b=JXrOqR4bBqhEP1jZXs3w2uJifMKBxh6uu62Fbu4SEOKgEdDRk74mK11vPz9O3tfp2s Z+7SDEoq8+4LK5dV0th0vHne9vvHJRVdpcPKpayC54e/nPMUWK6ghGh/uQaVV/AMRH48 zSguPkL3QzCdiWtZqHeoKSyzpBoBTyh+ernfojw1k5zzYg161D0DviweKN36k+iCgCkQ HGfaczENqspgtSvnrYrYku/6SS6YtfIn3KvbUG+qoFGqC9XQ6JVRklI1+9nv/OQ9P08E 8lxQ93l59IerCQoY+59SCYEVCcW9Mwem3bUNm0JkdC0g+79H54O0RCf5JHsTRY7zcVfC grjg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=JAIBMYrTdhqXp9LI0I1eB172Wl/B3Gmd/M6nCHV3tc8=; b=EL63UbyurbH4K9mpiry9DiOJh8MptVNY/UXTCM0o00unDO0q86swZKObAJhhjl3B9S HSXowcpWwyryMPPTYgRf6Cajg20Wm131isccGX9fN8q98VtOtD9RMjMhl35MDX9pS9GK 6QfjC5Nzvo13+frcVEutjVI+siebc1cpuWjDco8DEYtDEqgM8zvVMPcHP6QAIHoVmqSC sjdVRnWDsrM1EHYrzOA/dYYTGMCPuXIfbTrXuopdOYM9ueffKQy+cybXHlBDUhGZ4MaK /dWyEaVShiE2A0KAE1MqXYcSA0RYDAFLtCTUJ/wYxtV2oBq1lbErikuIzq05JgkpYeX4 QXNw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX7dWS+QCG2ijNoIf2ooNkdSSuZayK090G866dPTSvYB9Y7wiTb ifvKYMoVK1qNS91I1sb/jdUTqAvA X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxzejzwhwTD/tBKHl+O3U8ZOeBZMRQ9L+P+Qfx1cZIqhds5Lgk8Tz8yK4hpPklJAUOcBAmCiQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:7890:: with SMTP id q16mr24440512pll.105.1577129775653; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 11:36:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.30] (228.147.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.147.228]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k5sm268856pju.5.2019.12.23.11.36.12 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 23 Dec 2019 11:36:14 -0800 (PST) To: Yaakov Stein , Stephane Bortzmeyer , Stephen Farrell Cc: "architecture-discuss@iab.org" References: <20191220171026.GA28942@sources.org> <03e742f4-2306-93af-e17c-d8af9a5fef6c@cs.tcd.ie> <20191223075947.GA28090@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <0226fc62-133a-e02c-7903-f899b696ca2e@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2019 08:36:13 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 19:36:18 -0000 On 23-Dec-19 22:12, Yaakov Stein wrote: > Resilience is widely used in transport networks as a synonym for Automatic Protection Switching, > which typically replaces a failed path in less than 50 milliseconds. > So, while I agree that resilience is the ability to respond to an actual failure, it is not hypothetical or necessarily of long time duration. > > Robustness is used in system design and computer science to mean the ability to avoid failure despite disturbances or unexpected inputs. > Failure is defined (e.g., G.805) as the inability to provide the service or to meet the user's expectations. > Note that unlike resilience, robustness is always with respect to some disturbance type, and that a system can be robust to X but not to Y. > For example, a network designed to be robust with respect to link failures will contain a lot of redundant links, > but then it will not be robust with respect to increasing traffic levels (and vice versa). Yes. I don't think there is a sharp line between resilience and robustness. Also, despite the IETF's traditional narrow scope of focus on the wire protocol, you can't build a robust or resilient network without considering more than just the wire protocol. We might have to step outside our comfort zone here. For example, there is no such thing as a fatal error in a resilient system. All exceptions must be caught. That's a stronger statement than saying that a protocol's state machine must contain no undefined arcs. Brian > > Y(J)S > > -----Original Message----- > From: Architecture-discuss [mailto:architecture-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stephane Bortzmeyer > Sent: 23/12/2019 10:00 > To: Stephen Farrell > Cc: architecture-discuss@iab.org > Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience > > On Sat, Dec 21, 2019 at 01:23:18AM +0000, Stephen Farrell wrote a message of 271 lines which said: > >>> Indeed, the current project of charter seems to be more about >>> robustness than about resilience. >> >> Sorry - I'm not really following any of the above comments. Can one >> of you try explain some more? > > Typically, robustness is the ability to withstand shocks without cracking, and resilience is the ability, once you have cracked, to restart afterwards. I suggest that the word "robustness" is a better fit for what we are trying to achieve (an Internet that will keep going, may be in degraded mode, when problems/attacks occur). "Resilience" would be adapted for a (very hypothetical) case where everything was down and we try to resume activity. (Thought > experiment: all the DNS root name servers were destroyed and we must agree on a new set, without beging able to communicate together, except by IP addresses.) > > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Farchitecture-discuss&data=01%7C01%7Cyaakov_s%40rad.com%7Cf65119756ea34c3adefc08d7877e387a%7Cf9047108cc2c4e4897a343fad1b3bf9d%7C1&sdata=%2F60sYdn%2Ba5FZ%2FCO5tyBP1quAAlLF2t7tanBy4Al41sU%3D&reserved=0 > > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > From nobody Mon Dec 23 11:51:30 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 856A1120CE2 for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 11:51:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.965 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.965 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_SBL_CSS=3.335, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YbWp80T481ws for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 11:51:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C028D120CDA for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 11:51:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77C25BE24; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 19:51:25 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l_NUlfPqaJdK; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 19:51:24 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E59CABE20; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 19:51:23 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1577130684; bh=fa2S0Zu2fyL/scwiWeUmE2XGT5qvJeGExcF7RXq4Es8=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=3o9QTUSbCIpF0lrLLcupi0wi+m7iHf57RK3KiUClFAzeJ1sBLU+VvlcQ5mhhpR1/o sM+WVT0B0fhRt6b75XT+RImpyOcKWPMeOEJBTqWJiGB6ce9r/Qbxv+FNcp1SkeFPaX NgQixTHJHVh0+9JYQoa4swXj2OotqA2L+IXX6yC4= To: Vittorio Bertola , architecture-discuss@iab.org References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABtDJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPokCQAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxLkCDQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 19:51:23 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.2.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="hZFszR1gecl2hwKBegRBJj7Wifr4dxQx6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 19:51:29 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --hZFszR1gecl2hwKBegRBJj7Wifr4dxQx6 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="8Kyt9akt6nGryAEiIK23aoHO5gJFK7itO"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Vittorio Bertola , architecture-discuss@iab.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> --8Kyt9akt6nGryAEiIK23aoHO5gJFK7itO Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------47D613CC322904C39C240E7B" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------47D613CC322904C39C240E7B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, Just on this bit... On 23/12/2019 14:45, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > A question: given the insistence=20 Insistence is a very odd term to use. > in the charter on lack of diversity > as a key threat to resilience, do I take it well that this programme > is meant to subsume the past discussions on centralization and > consolidation of the Internet? No. Are you possibly reading between the lines and seeing the shadow of some sneaky scheme that's just not there? :-) Centralisation etc. may be a part of the discussion of resilience (and robustness - I agree with Brian that those are intertwined, at least in how I think of them), but this proposal doesn't "subsume" anything, at least not in the negative sense which is how I interpret your question. IOW, what's proposed is a new discussion venue (new for this IAB) - an addition to whatever else is being discussed, (in or around the IETF) and afaik there is no intention to pre-empt, subsume, or prevent any discussion of anything else anywhere. Hope that helps, S. --------------47D613CC322904C39C240E7B Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9t lyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQAB tCFTdGVwaGVuIEZhcnJlbGwgPHN0ZXBoZW5AamVsbC5pZT6JAj0EEwEIACcFAlo9 UYwCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQWrL68XsXK+qG CxAApYHWYgGOIL3G6/OpkejdAkQoCVQAK8LJUSf6vzwost4iVfxIKcKW/3RqKNKk rRl8beJ7j1CWXAz9+VXAOsE9+zNxXIDgGA7HlvJnhffl+qwibVgiHgUcJFhCSbBr sjC+1uULaTU8zYEyET//GOGPLF+X+degkE/sesh4zcEAjF7fGPnlncdCCH3tvPZZ sdTcjwOCRVonKsDgQzBTCMz/RPBfEFX44HZx4g1UQAcCA4xlucY8QkJEyCrSNGpG nvGK8DcGSmnstl1/a9fnlhpdFxieX3oY2phJ1WKkYTn6Advrek3UP71CKxpgtPmk d3iUUz/VZa0Cv6YxQXskspRDVEvdCMYSQBtJPQ4y2+5UxVR9GIQXenwYp9AP2niv Voh+ITsDWWeWnnvYMq07rSDjq0nGdj41MJkNX+Yb2PXVyXItcj5ybE3T2+y3pSBG FEZYJGuaL4NwtBJFMOdOtBmUOPbetS2971EL3Izxb7ibOZWDwexv+8R6SWYfP1wV N3p46RyBQuXqJV8ccE11m6vtZTGSYgnLUUFZMRQYH+0hwuYe0T3AA18xDdSYsa8v ovCCd3l5S4UNzIM2PMChqGrEzKapUpZg7+8ACcxRU3b9Ihd7WYjJ+pQPCoWYKozv tEvenbNpE/govO/ED3B14e+R2yevRPjRrsN7PJzSf15fQLuJARwEEAEIAAYFAlo9 UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLrSwf+MIHbFRQ4O5cmLYR5sIByWelN3SuRN/gW8rpKo9Ok Cz6An8uV/iCXy5tNMLzzi0BFl8f22DwBcC5qy9qnlIAdogWam1qWoTAoAD8veEqm uKhYrqJsCcAyNrKYmK0hP3rpHxx1LySDmKYXmw/8qtBXKHTouMm+5tSsznhykRMT AAr2p7PSaHgo+hIVaW/rKSspHjDhhZS+G9mtOZad1IH29M6G1Q1NCO0Ywe8krKLQ IAQlFxtgvOqpPOZNzeKBa/+KbE8TGgMWrkOhC8OeEM5PVzdDhlhD9kPzB/pCKDF5 DofJ/ZRqnDpbKPQ0bsW38AOig3kOc0A27awiBEw3urqR1YkCMwQQAQgAHRYhBH4X CgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJbtyScAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSI/oP/0A9J9nrnBMq Zpm857lfYWw+rshLK+tyeP4OQeOqnDFvs9jePpcyJLG3DF2r6VbVKPQq+AE6Uf5h cJBDEN6BjEhRPSbLcqG3A1cz/nNwm8rPmNp+oKhmaBBQGxwciMLmzgynsDydnjPp MyEs04zvsbsl4vrp2095o105l8KcrrxQrioFjbwveGwHQK9bxJKhx9D+gIk+MouB ur45UDKTZkMZrr9FGrtkyXCGAxvKdcNC5Oa8z9sj1rcUJfG/OpVAMWhArdlZbFUQ yoX6pU2Zb1CR2qpWAVerGSfBhmfCyStjARqaKxlftjO+Bj3Jj73Cr5eqej3qB5+V 4BCsPjr4RLvVbYUCPsRdxWc+nBLlfVYkRURu21g1hFm5KFPjgUkyo1s4vjUOY8Dy I+xLGF7f/IhUBG6l+Vswhpwu7ydalZkeFiPx5xna5NfbEYxvsIf71DvipGvIOaHv X4egWoFgm8n/9c3rcMxJtpwHPSsUt5dgLsyu6VE0IbvOAc3dN7CWJ355DVFJq9Zg 2YVf0izSpyyzJeGsgkfjW6xpmdvZxuT2UcN4BTcm6vYqueASGrb3lfhzC5gpeVsc /MoSjTS65vNWbpzONZWMZuLEFraxWJzC0JrDK3NCd0VN3kstqGkVbUIiYOnUm8Vu 4zoVMLlGWzHLIGoPRG2nRezn1YyNfyb5iQGcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8 pK1gE7QL/ApC5P68W5DrI1787WJVZv1u4t/g39vTr7Xer3UMTVQg10vpa7pmqOGh jIDzDMg3Pe3K3M7fVzfAlUA1qw6ne4RCueVoRKpubeF4AlYbMr0K6hNCPjt5uAxm bBVuejKTc6pru5rv5gKL0nDbr+Snft5xt7juBLSSimw0/41sZnkjCxo9rF/RA/v6 +uWyK171RKmsEYu8fFtw1eqUNt/Xj792TUixE3pxXheNtQtZGk/9P3W83ChhG4Fh 5EQsn0pIh9wZIAbMRLpgRKyW87fWHZC8/YH8h7afarvn9Thl5pFUldCe22mNJj6K LChn2aEHQd+PdY1GBpZEcmNEUPuovwzatM0h64hCzTm41eDqRfihZVBT7TbfXQnv 8rywa42Mk756RGzzEZcQEhwQXZcMQUfxIQQ2VyJo0zG36VdZTQF7TF/4Lz7/3cJ5 6jOIm+dwPXtu+C2wAQuD4USOLt4JWPYpqzDfHYJIND/497P9Z9SuQeahr2ez3DRB g3qsHEjBV7QyU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsICgyMDE3KSA8c3RlcGhlbi5mYXJyZWxs QGNzLnRjZC5pZT6JAkAEEwEIACoCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwEC HgECF4AFAlo+o3cCGQEACgkQWrL68XsXK+qO0A//ZsfQzyXrZlu/eEV5jU620yeO M3P7SW3C3UQYdCgZ/TlvxGgKow5oDSXgjMiUyq9csGqbPBxlDYSxFZHNeDVKYIuP 2ZK24tw5k6duTh4+sFwUualTMlcp0zBCIzn3hRcsRvuPKHfl5+6oOi0+xqx3jX/s /69L/fvHmdSKet5LIUAxoYaZkTCruFrPWb01tgAl5JExWkhmCY98iD+EeiIMAWBj Mw1xV+p0uCwNbN6XDzcToK7wsm+tAIiWUy3DpP60a6WbVwdV0HNt2WZq5U5Jdh2k 4S+sN2CnYk4tTW7jHjsWarV3FLISCOObADZuB7ljU4kYfdwZ+WzenXY4LGlxGQSl AblGjwZe4EIkCXAJUtzJhoFUuGaF/PlWjxqV3UFRcgTERZTijguVyREre8GNERNg vDxZvuXssEjvz9X5JfcIZDIJpdzhLiEIj9noUbfx1SzB5KDPQj0O7elMHa1671/r wWcpGr/MfVPTOik4H7F8rcVJelceZTzC4tvya7M+jM4fyFWWt8Y4atTixUiP7U9o 4uBZCQ0GzvsmFA4XLqn2pA5rVizMXnGbGOjufAP/efEJ4ul3qvjYe8ye8DXEDjKA xo/tuHYtk19XCi83QzFhWls5TT+XQeVTMEvVqo9Wek8yoxo67qvLKKqIcG9givQd 8MxYNAbNYgSPtkbhZ8SJARwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLzHAgAlWT6 NXEGtw/r1miKNGcopzvzILQ9oB8rKI9U9EL6tOf/y2V5oYee/GyQDb3ZdoPxxYYc Jf+RyiH1nMoqUIZiZJaf3bJXinDZ5+AdfE++UR2NBvqaNyC6u3r24jo1B/sagKbY tWgsYtRqHLD4IWi37MZrVyjBuF7u14Q07+uhjq6mX2O/tHpCYw/Q82tbeTRPyUf1 WQOAfD1kfBpW9PvAva5Iw9FWeXpCXRzwxnCZhYfGfqtuSw6CPBYLdbikqML6FZ7E DuTBb/8um1wK7Y9bgeIQC+CYjhYB5RXa1tDJRab2Js4luCvSR0w/CgHw26293tlv e2Q6UTrmHxP5U22DlokCPQQTAQgAJwUCWj1QMgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkK CwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6tJpD/4rrILH+meP07vrx8wW5eYuqCiP GYnh/CXxIF8eLrfbe5d4QRgtq+w6UeQPMyzKRIRiCoBXB2oJLBZHyxBPxZlg33dT MrEGn8QWKx2iNuz9rZMXyOSWFetuO01d/aUPd5BnbLbIyK5of8xCQlXM6KH8bc+9 gQ7edR9mfLTdvBf2FR522hg8BRBM1imKc3vO8v39+qIHHRjuiwxBBCAOhHtHRsZX ripS0uFA07dM46Oi/E8osjx6fQt/lH5z/PN+2adxYSrLSAXfr1oD3RxYNhuWgyGF L64/VCQb1YGjf0Z5MBPnWm9jgUoOY5K9eNSS0L83WeJjlF5+Q/WOgB+rb49Prm2D Feo9+S9f2V53Llz1WIspXJg6f+n9lmHE94MfQj1GAHCzI0FeL19lvM+LhD8jJSCb hrC3+yobyy/AUOs5Z3E+njjX1FF/VCVAs6iOa6i+XG+Y1hh3ir2y1kckJ5auT10M SU8GEZu9ayU4M3o3N9yxOjaoP0NuQ4MMLL/n/u4u94AeZaHPNBXn/hVfVRRmpRXt GKvJtFAEppGEYezB+bLKIm6XlpPkhnwYzleLZ7AMEco2C6QM8QPB3g3JpS3sqRhA 5rEP4lL16BmijmF+CHoPE/zwgKZbKpyVDqvIW5IDgvfIC2X4pbZDRvGIUKaGSB4+ ksZgUUnNyvfQr2p7jokCMwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJb tySbAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSeKkQAJm44jt1kwHgQgeDBKdjdvl0AjE0xVEQxriZ6lP/ l//34YT0auFfzsYIrChSpQXAEtobBAr4Ohw1Us+BZe+H5P8vm6LRuPwozC3SjwfX 4Iec8+9ot6tIVg4sbedDSgb/CCFVjsmIGcQ1P73JLJTBJ6mxYCV/gn3QC6bwDOFo 7kD9FDHCjRN8XfhHQ4Q9cYyt06uF31qG/aumgWYC9geCGgAwiHgwxNYb9GoJ0iZj CROwbYvLTcQgsVUW2bTmsVR13UVKDsdl02sRV7qcVYW6R0a3Ra8KudX+nt25H5DR Gd382KZ5W8pydsy/viTvD9z6v0ulChBYxAedIvGIClrhbxlLEPmIg4ImVOLGqsUg Vm32J95WOjEkk4PEZ12xSDBtwhSJqmJNboWlfmw43KdIbY8zNhffIO3N6O7FsdGx mqyHeLoTpqY+ySVUPpbuyW8ujnI/J//+6hdTZ9dQsEJQlWngKuWOQ5ma58MPSN88 zllsqhZAFQjNxqnkSzL6ZQ+v/jvuRRe16B80AeO55DsmbWsMv/YLLD1mSi7+Khy2 EtMBhgojWwrGMvdLN6X3mnzNJEscYyLxM9tSk+iySP2sLthK0BVgpAzBSdaf/ezI z60P+neHDzteNFf8Mn7lmgYk1amvZoJ29s5+n2HwxyRL5dVMyMdyQmntubbctfqr Z0tIiQGcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gnCYMAJY4FeIYjlIXGghFWzsB 4fYwK1+iaFpU3fSto5qcrqVtVPjXpwqczqBWeXGyQxiB0kan4OVAXydIeaP8EAuF CA7paP3s9STLJBO3KurkwyRkPW5zo0X7xVqaVToRsX2Ul98KVJoHYQD1KdezEtwl vpNwiiBr42AYR751Vm6JBVAbQXuFpB3c8bUV0OkkRxNFtL8/2PieHar58n5dntGk bPlPkztahsFqktgacIgXHX5vaT+7YeeZ1DWLOYjGO0wNhkOSeroCmxwJUikU7joB p823L7r5KfpqWTPpSCzVstQKZUGmmoE1qCswY/Ud5wvp9SccpIILkRXj0rZRtfnE 5MpL3hjmtNzfDd9qIsJtBJlSB2hZwAsVm1l+EWN9hG3tqyA43niUMy2n6q690of3 berSiQ+kvY/aC9Hx8I+bKzOV9/J2VUTqfaPZa4Uy2rVX5Q2p69n/PMj7mEer0rCL 3j9V16J9c+s0BSkXoKdtYdB0TWVhBgUybd9qtYcwHWvhP7QuU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJy ZWxsIDxzdGVwaGVuQHRvbGVyYW50bmV0d29ya3MuY29tPokCPQQTAQgAJwUCWj1R WgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6jsc EADEcB0WQEZn2AkrzDs1RhL0Lp6cZi0BigofkbcGfdhJyMSs19C0dhvncrAFClVI 6/Udw3yFtDyYtOCf2W3M3A1K6/RfEizCLzTsdFIhni9gOJLlUpXViQtgrlstjk7h qVV3Ooz4BlCqS4cG7rfqf4LQQPpTAuFUEV9I28FBUB2irqC+v4gTysIgpMw0bA1y BU9sX5jE/tRkzqnuzZrkwiobDtRFJ9qp+7O2JtcY4EsVtLAsaodJKc5cF8R4OvB1 n66vxxcgg9Eh4JNWZ47xsaCmAGo1Bcb2jIY35OtgAL7gCGLRSMKTtAaPy1/fEgIq hCljJ9x40Fkn/3r2BX21WC9HFSPFTBz2RluLRzxdgxOrkYK8EiHUPoE5b1AEzZKw 2AbeXfr57f5zYsN3IqfbQLUjMYtUN1wK3Pjb+idD972wyXMWt8uOzlI7b9Ocu+nY m2whBfJv9Pmp3QYTmPz+LB9lH65VNVUSxSXVr5iWXO3qx1HtEiGEqkporMQCTh3T 5Ud3PvMSRBFFKNs9WhJ/Lxz+SV30WLwG6dr5mQqlzAhb4Phc/zekZyXRdS/oDKrB LUucS36O//49JeyRi1QvOfxnfmIqRIAf/k3PoYJmTo5E82//r5Qj3YGlRu78ba0H Arxs+ACD6AnEHHcbswpbtVEKYzlSu0Ar0Dc7vRWM/IyQdIkBHAQQAQgABgUCWj1S oAAKCRAvPIc2gF+NosIsB/9f/29FNla3BJfGIEIDnhrqGD0i9bSa89SqBd++uG06 TQgW5wsqtNcrwn81yZTq6XE6i9VtD4GKfqC0d4KZJr9bnbeD81cI64VOdL8zJWJs 0vj5EIXCobKyX74Kb4uePUyZqwT2Q74I116u/HwA9/FXsPo5isbh4ZqD4t0VHpWk mfq1FPT9a/JPyX46qKqB2Fce/7Qy+SQP1NfkuUlbhUH/JG9aSSYvk3lznNiH41x9 M+FDlL106itXOubrl3oi2fT3fsSedq7uzt+IV0DQEeNaoQAUuwEhdB8IWOMqN2wo DjGVKJftfsSWY9ilZrnDBNDrp0vRqcx33LUMkIw4d7iBiQIzBBABCAAdFiEEfhcK BFyEz0YOK3mgEO952f2DUxIFAlu3JJwACgkQEO952f2DUxJjuw/6ApHSsVTWD4a0 H6FJ23A9Ftpy+aXZ4vYlzkSrfsn2ECrEfK3lXQh/uzwjJUDYZeB1/BQsFZtcYNQO JSSHbQ49BFRLwb1J/wBZG4bbmrkLxnNbKDKQvzxEpclkMW0Dj0J6o7kGrmzIGGrh B+JJN99AcineHRug8ZSFIERRCmigxdhAKU0BFD7P+5HNHltSL3DF1c2fFOf2JrgB KVoE+9RhMZjWNbYetFFLCkjXb5Rpay9zeMm1DxfSTGAnuOwUXW6qq4hnl5+VC/48 ceDZElLLfu7RQUZv44pkSTOWZs+iQoJiHMFHk9wPqyB2Vok1yJ2a2j27WhXrJlPw nZbgJO5RyWDG3p/eVmpl5Uuc2dsfIpR17KnAuWpghK6V+cyFncDoGCl/YG2Mvool sW08FiZh3Ej4dnJjj25TZkeFG74JJDXLvMYpJfSBGnmETv4Dhcm2xPqVMuFuL1qJ lMbVLrMo2GXeo03OzNyvbs+u8WLIaGm5hC7N1CXY8wZs4jo6OJ/expvnc07dEuws 4zT3AiWv3nIouWReRStZy9QkavDocqbyPmilcdPCYk4BsOlzpwwO74hNG7iyl0Kd AlwTxGQ7y0rJou6HYa1TmRhIEr3vKvlW+JfUUrqtjXgsuacTXo4+Ira2JUErL2cY zQMq1j4r1ZyhFnuz93s7Rsx/Nw0+0YuJAZwEEAEKAAYFAlvFx+UACgkQajsROTyk rWCJqwv+NLVPE4sD4sDA2/6Ek7UsRIUkg+S39fhqWsLc4rtw/mDunv8Un61I3K04 fZ2Ry4nF9hZM0a710UvXFbStvrzRJO3EAAcdJR9LTCd19e8UeruQbIee3YT91U4N kC9JMpecfq62/teOAU2e5P3fWYaLs5ZX7zCLwWuBcW2l3SyoljQczM85HhJ3XHm+ FnwQ6D9xRle+lvWTcuC9d1yAyUb8IOospcL2lJTmy8e3r79R24hPlSB4LDe0wEN8 AXbagrcAQZjwyaHyWxjJbTwZ0b43WGdfIqZ1ElOeoffbketPGRmWvx5xUvb2ALFB BdETzV270gs5XDJgJ1SIIKOyDADxwvroTe2jD8C/841eEql5QSow3s/U3zRqk3mt tto8Qw/DN71aeh6dmYSsvd2UjsHw/vofOPRBGxZLEkKTEvMnhmMW9hiKPkPia+Qg evYE020qpKSxLEdWA8nprHwxmGiDNesCfXSC6vm1qfyj5g8HzxSckq9ZaMhKMCo7 vxflUEDuuQINBFo9UDIBEAD6DdHQfMav8OXfhjTteoarOrlJTSdci727xiezGPuB HmpvceBRZgRasdbaMc4HJee+R9+5x/nLPCuy/DxDyIjwIUeJNgc+l7LjI9WfpHTD 8U4xxjvR5Mi7+ToQQUOUNuzT0O0pyuxP1uY3RehHEhOVfBZO59ipSeZL5iQC6T5M sK1SKfs51pLa5ToC1rc8tBJ4zZmxRAyZiYc/AH2uZ/6rYjTTkAn1DVI9DYo2D/zE 4bGjXdJW5pKphFB2lX3dG4I7ODi+5e1H6A/QpCu6z8/ZkIQ+9T1xcX/YwiFeA7Pb TuW/eITbMbI1eV3+fyym9aT7Rsflmp31Zxtr+sZwGGZf00ooMBFmqOS//NUQ/Vf3 vDUew1h5QU1yDaWT3NApvi+XWPH9TPy6TMfZA2FThHf11sX/gDBa5JWQZbptPEcm oazpiKZt91CrFPOaoXDPck/Q61dfmr/oPikfByYnASIM3OwEuXqyQ9JDRfKrem5r +oA/wxWb5jELElAhOpnyqMMvOh7uz1foUssL8MAv2TGXmxpVJ8Nu4je6wf96Z22f Q0D38zud+CKH3bMP3ayXXJBcdPoENrzFbWP5FTg/4TTDJ3vOAHZR5iCunYghx8b7 Ffa4UbkwlD+dh8GiIAtvT51Ac0cO0Wc0Zjc57zPUz1zloMbf+zb1Bsn7DuEQoqj1 gwARAQABiQIlBBgBCAAPBQJaPVAyAhsMBQkJlCYAAAoJEFqy+vF7FyvqrC8P/1tF 6TeR83xD6MasqXyrBjwcLmziaF0Mlkj8k/YUiZ/knb53n97xQnh9yxPv0TT8Wpfd n3BmvqGyh8+ouHX9jMOxiRkMdNhIauVYY/8jmRfBSYWcFkfMzdYasvdLtmYJgx25 2HKTFdeOrszoOjWjEzwmh+tca3AFMu/nB++/KAmi5UJV7zsZ7uYJ5jm97LV5SLjN JIXXM+lHqCDrjDaDhNczmq1LCRlU6/WDjvkuwaVhZG4lXxMDrvKnXMkjseQ2oKjw rIdfQM86H1z5J31lfhqop+of0cimcIsBgSCPu+h96LHuAzeRBCbDKeqrfZtAZAGs okRina9947fRWxXHh3O66ILmXKNRxxWbDkPvYnQWUat8SbSTDoPWrDIGDRIAypqY o3pcN2OE0C1chqgDZQxkr+9kYZQpupOAN2TR+fM7JvbO9coKI8Uqog8CopoMeDQk d0YjcqlB1E0svODHTzcSoRzogDBYDqNLP7qVkNXpcOAXSVioBgiSDf7o5RdS/qmU yXBIeq6I5z8xBcd+BQ/n/9Frkm6K7IKP3ngUP4wEoiPx5ZE5+fPIScGmVUcZIMhk vMvem9XXh1yyhqN14gfjmLwPGdWbrgG8QUe0s2WeWIyss6uTiyF+ZbJSo2XOKVc3 YFMVUUfgyudqAV1wWdZinUk+H3pkqOKoHAy/8fST =3DYzQY -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- --------------47D613CC322904C39C240E7B-- --8Kyt9akt6nGryAEiIK23aoHO5gJFK7itO-- --hZFszR1gecl2hwKBegRBJj7Wifr4dxQx6 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAl4BGrsACgkQWrL68XsX K+rmKxAAmM+ipKEUPSkIpGWUIKCvIW2XW0LtaGF3Aao8w9dYcpBwJa9RLzaFIPuW TxdFE+UGv1bNh/mVIYt/SKdlUQJAwn0cnHL5av9ZiQleCRRcI9rqZZfJgtEonDtx 7bKxTaUtNps4IYJhEebaJwyv/9QMvCJc46URzf9DibXVKjt/t2pPwqH3c6HVy4m7 YNflmwhJuXdATReyx7noYvvoHfIZ8wLUeTP5WsgGGXKpYcjyKbQoUZykW7YeX3JA IQFlIx7mLhUCqHj8Tsr3Kgsl3zilznEwCEbLLODvpkf702hPEmrSVu1U/BT4Eiom lcPx8riOacNOtiUieOhzItdpAzz2wgwMUzj9pkzVEL5HGml1+LJLmR+Oj8/h6MPr 05UsUGEm6u0rhforfQsm0JEi+Q18tbrpDI6dVJTRk/zotw9han6DqFFFtKkOLW5n ixgxYZ/cPdM+rjBvme+cgdeEqmYwRJoJkEJwafPOMvXDuK4LB68rs9Uq4BbWNwut 6R4+LZmo4PjmJh/EJLzYU0HUvN1ERuYR1uCPIwghk9yaFfqKfSX+SIpMPiwXkfWu d8n3oyHwcTYAte45XsN7s/uFx1kTipEWrbC41XSh0AAxDXX0o9A5Ja75Bcj6gYVh O+NaNFR+9n3iRskYQXdxUZRzSKS1JrRpyCqm3C6g8DaFwTUGcQQ= =V1D6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --hZFszR1gecl2hwKBegRBJj7Wifr4dxQx6-- From nobody Mon Dec 23 12:05:58 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A15DC120CBF for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 12:05:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.965 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.965 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_SBL_CSS=3.335, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6s19bN50oWfP for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 12:05:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E283112004E for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 12:05:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09378BE24; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 20:05:52 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cFFqqNcAjuHr; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 20:05:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 711D3BE20; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 20:05:47 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1577131547; bh=1S1UyHnMnLUSAt8o7B0yQ7mr+9r7j2riXodnHqR56nE=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=ZHUAm5MEmUCtZkU1OAl6EAEE95baIuPP/R8yOjC9KKQBjEf2O9xvx2/fcg7rni15v aZD0Z3+fbvEFrbk9ewiEAB2OfJ/UQm3IVEFEBr0YgLS4OQYg6P5XpY/JUd315wD2dE xHGhuaz3ezFuaiks2Ut3tc1Z18wT+2iCN2AzGYWw= To: Toerless Eckert Cc: architecture-discuss@iab.org References: <20191223092519.GA32894@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABtDJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPokCQAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxLkCDQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: <12974fd8-9701-2ee7-f443-d3ab454350e3@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 20:05:46 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.2.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20191223092519.GA32894@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="5ijYufyCKG0v4xf8wO7cyLJXS4FFP3Wh8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 20:05:58 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --5ijYufyCKG0v4xf8wO7cyLJXS4FFP3Wh8 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="QmY2Mrby5m8uEPHwxm6ytU1lk5EQYoSve"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Toerless Eckert Cc: architecture-discuss@iab.org Message-ID: <12974fd8-9701-2ee7-f443-d3ab454350e3@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience References: <20191223092519.GA32894@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> In-Reply-To: <20191223092519.GA32894@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> --QmY2Mrby5m8uEPHwxm6ytU1lk5EQYoSve Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------3296ED4B6D430CD610C4018D" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3296ED4B6D430CD610C4018D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, Just on his bit for now, more on the more technical stuff after the holidays (from me at least:-) On 23/12/2019 09:25, Toerless Eckert wrote: > 4. Politics and Openness >=20 > IMHO, Resilience and related "metrics" of reliability are at the > core of at least the public explanations of several political > actions today such as US congress bills (e.g.: "Defending America's > 5G Future") and US govt action (such as the Huawei EAR rulings). >=20 > In face of these political challenges for open global collaboration,=20 > i would highly recommend to not charter a program like this as an=20 > "by-invitation-only" IAB program (as described in the current draft=20 > charter), but as an "everyone-is-welcome-to-contribute" program, > more like an IETF working group. Otherwise, the program would be seen > as yet another politically divisive step by those not invited to=20 > contribute. Fair point. AIUI, the IAB's intent is to be that open, and that so long as everything happens on an open list and in open meetings, we're ok wrt the current weird EAR stuff. (But IANAL of course.) I am quite sure the IAB do not want to set this up in a way that might prevent anyone from participating. That could still allow the IAB to appoint some people to be programme members in some sense though - I think the idea was that that might be useful as a way to help enable some people to stay involved over the longer term, while not being an exclusive membership. But yeah, if that were perceived as being divisive or forming an exclusive club, I reckon that'd be counter-productive. Cheers, S. --------------3296ED4B6D430CD610C4018D Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9t lyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQAB tCFTdGVwaGVuIEZhcnJlbGwgPHN0ZXBoZW5AamVsbC5pZT6JAj0EEwEIACcFAlo9 UYwCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQWrL68XsXK+qG CxAApYHWYgGOIL3G6/OpkejdAkQoCVQAK8LJUSf6vzwost4iVfxIKcKW/3RqKNKk rRl8beJ7j1CWXAz9+VXAOsE9+zNxXIDgGA7HlvJnhffl+qwibVgiHgUcJFhCSbBr sjC+1uULaTU8zYEyET//GOGPLF+X+degkE/sesh4zcEAjF7fGPnlncdCCH3tvPZZ sdTcjwOCRVonKsDgQzBTCMz/RPBfEFX44HZx4g1UQAcCA4xlucY8QkJEyCrSNGpG nvGK8DcGSmnstl1/a9fnlhpdFxieX3oY2phJ1WKkYTn6Advrek3UP71CKxpgtPmk d3iUUz/VZa0Cv6YxQXskspRDVEvdCMYSQBtJPQ4y2+5UxVR9GIQXenwYp9AP2niv Voh+ITsDWWeWnnvYMq07rSDjq0nGdj41MJkNX+Yb2PXVyXItcj5ybE3T2+y3pSBG FEZYJGuaL4NwtBJFMOdOtBmUOPbetS2971EL3Izxb7ibOZWDwexv+8R6SWYfP1wV N3p46RyBQuXqJV8ccE11m6vtZTGSYgnLUUFZMRQYH+0hwuYe0T3AA18xDdSYsa8v ovCCd3l5S4UNzIM2PMChqGrEzKapUpZg7+8ACcxRU3b9Ihd7WYjJ+pQPCoWYKozv tEvenbNpE/govO/ED3B14e+R2yevRPjRrsN7PJzSf15fQLuJARwEEAEIAAYFAlo9 UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLrSwf+MIHbFRQ4O5cmLYR5sIByWelN3SuRN/gW8rpKo9Ok Cz6An8uV/iCXy5tNMLzzi0BFl8f22DwBcC5qy9qnlIAdogWam1qWoTAoAD8veEqm uKhYrqJsCcAyNrKYmK0hP3rpHxx1LySDmKYXmw/8qtBXKHTouMm+5tSsznhykRMT AAr2p7PSaHgo+hIVaW/rKSspHjDhhZS+G9mtOZad1IH29M6G1Q1NCO0Ywe8krKLQ IAQlFxtgvOqpPOZNzeKBa/+KbE8TGgMWrkOhC8OeEM5PVzdDhlhD9kPzB/pCKDF5 DofJ/ZRqnDpbKPQ0bsW38AOig3kOc0A27awiBEw3urqR1YkCMwQQAQgAHRYhBH4X CgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJbtyScAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSI/oP/0A9J9nrnBMq Zpm857lfYWw+rshLK+tyeP4OQeOqnDFvs9jePpcyJLG3DF2r6VbVKPQq+AE6Uf5h cJBDEN6BjEhRPSbLcqG3A1cz/nNwm8rPmNp+oKhmaBBQGxwciMLmzgynsDydnjPp MyEs04zvsbsl4vrp2095o105l8KcrrxQrioFjbwveGwHQK9bxJKhx9D+gIk+MouB ur45UDKTZkMZrr9FGrtkyXCGAxvKdcNC5Oa8z9sj1rcUJfG/OpVAMWhArdlZbFUQ yoX6pU2Zb1CR2qpWAVerGSfBhmfCyStjARqaKxlftjO+Bj3Jj73Cr5eqej3qB5+V 4BCsPjr4RLvVbYUCPsRdxWc+nBLlfVYkRURu21g1hFm5KFPjgUkyo1s4vjUOY8Dy I+xLGF7f/IhUBG6l+Vswhpwu7ydalZkeFiPx5xna5NfbEYxvsIf71DvipGvIOaHv X4egWoFgm8n/9c3rcMxJtpwHPSsUt5dgLsyu6VE0IbvOAc3dN7CWJ355DVFJq9Zg 2YVf0izSpyyzJeGsgkfjW6xpmdvZxuT2UcN4BTcm6vYqueASGrb3lfhzC5gpeVsc /MoSjTS65vNWbpzONZWMZuLEFraxWJzC0JrDK3NCd0VN3kstqGkVbUIiYOnUm8Vu 4zoVMLlGWzHLIGoPRG2nRezn1YyNfyb5iQGcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8 pK1gE7QL/ApC5P68W5DrI1787WJVZv1u4t/g39vTr7Xer3UMTVQg10vpa7pmqOGh jIDzDMg3Pe3K3M7fVzfAlUA1qw6ne4RCueVoRKpubeF4AlYbMr0K6hNCPjt5uAxm bBVuejKTc6pru5rv5gKL0nDbr+Snft5xt7juBLSSimw0/41sZnkjCxo9rF/RA/v6 +uWyK171RKmsEYu8fFtw1eqUNt/Xj792TUixE3pxXheNtQtZGk/9P3W83ChhG4Fh 5EQsn0pIh9wZIAbMRLpgRKyW87fWHZC8/YH8h7afarvn9Thl5pFUldCe22mNJj6K LChn2aEHQd+PdY1GBpZEcmNEUPuovwzatM0h64hCzTm41eDqRfihZVBT7TbfXQnv 8rywa42Mk756RGzzEZcQEhwQXZcMQUfxIQQ2VyJo0zG36VdZTQF7TF/4Lz7/3cJ5 6jOIm+dwPXtu+C2wAQuD4USOLt4JWPYpqzDfHYJIND/497P9Z9SuQeahr2ez3DRB g3qsHEjBV7QyU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJyZWxsICgyMDE3KSA8c3RlcGhlbi5mYXJyZWxs QGNzLnRjZC5pZT6JAkAEEwEIACoCGwMFCQmUJgAFCwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwEC HgECF4AFAlo+o3cCGQEACgkQWrL68XsXK+qO0A//ZsfQzyXrZlu/eEV5jU620yeO M3P7SW3C3UQYdCgZ/TlvxGgKow5oDSXgjMiUyq9csGqbPBxlDYSxFZHNeDVKYIuP 2ZK24tw5k6duTh4+sFwUualTMlcp0zBCIzn3hRcsRvuPKHfl5+6oOi0+xqx3jX/s /69L/fvHmdSKet5LIUAxoYaZkTCruFrPWb01tgAl5JExWkhmCY98iD+EeiIMAWBj Mw1xV+p0uCwNbN6XDzcToK7wsm+tAIiWUy3DpP60a6WbVwdV0HNt2WZq5U5Jdh2k 4S+sN2CnYk4tTW7jHjsWarV3FLISCOObADZuB7ljU4kYfdwZ+WzenXY4LGlxGQSl AblGjwZe4EIkCXAJUtzJhoFUuGaF/PlWjxqV3UFRcgTERZTijguVyREre8GNERNg vDxZvuXssEjvz9X5JfcIZDIJpdzhLiEIj9noUbfx1SzB5KDPQj0O7elMHa1671/r wWcpGr/MfVPTOik4H7F8rcVJelceZTzC4tvya7M+jM4fyFWWt8Y4atTixUiP7U9o 4uBZCQ0GzvsmFA4XLqn2pA5rVizMXnGbGOjufAP/efEJ4ul3qvjYe8ye8DXEDjKA xo/tuHYtk19XCi83QzFhWls5TT+XQeVTMEvVqo9Wek8yoxo67qvLKKqIcG9givQd 8MxYNAbNYgSPtkbhZ8SJARwEEAEIAAYFAlo9UqAACgkQLzyHNoBfjaLzHAgAlWT6 NXEGtw/r1miKNGcopzvzILQ9oB8rKI9U9EL6tOf/y2V5oYee/GyQDb3ZdoPxxYYc Jf+RyiH1nMoqUIZiZJaf3bJXinDZ5+AdfE++UR2NBvqaNyC6u3r24jo1B/sagKbY tWgsYtRqHLD4IWi37MZrVyjBuF7u14Q07+uhjq6mX2O/tHpCYw/Q82tbeTRPyUf1 WQOAfD1kfBpW9PvAva5Iw9FWeXpCXRzwxnCZhYfGfqtuSw6CPBYLdbikqML6FZ7E DuTBb/8um1wK7Y9bgeIQC+CYjhYB5RXa1tDJRab2Js4luCvSR0w/CgHw26293tlv e2Q6UTrmHxP5U22DlokCPQQTAQgAJwUCWj1QMgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkK CwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6tJpD/4rrILH+meP07vrx8wW5eYuqCiP GYnh/CXxIF8eLrfbe5d4QRgtq+w6UeQPMyzKRIRiCoBXB2oJLBZHyxBPxZlg33dT MrEGn8QWKx2iNuz9rZMXyOSWFetuO01d/aUPd5BnbLbIyK5of8xCQlXM6KH8bc+9 gQ7edR9mfLTdvBf2FR522hg8BRBM1imKc3vO8v39+qIHHRjuiwxBBCAOhHtHRsZX ripS0uFA07dM46Oi/E8osjx6fQt/lH5z/PN+2adxYSrLSAXfr1oD3RxYNhuWgyGF L64/VCQb1YGjf0Z5MBPnWm9jgUoOY5K9eNSS0L83WeJjlF5+Q/WOgB+rb49Prm2D Feo9+S9f2V53Llz1WIspXJg6f+n9lmHE94MfQj1GAHCzI0FeL19lvM+LhD8jJSCb hrC3+yobyy/AUOs5Z3E+njjX1FF/VCVAs6iOa6i+XG+Y1hh3ir2y1kckJ5auT10M SU8GEZu9ayU4M3o3N9yxOjaoP0NuQ4MMLL/n/u4u94AeZaHPNBXn/hVfVRRmpRXt GKvJtFAEppGEYezB+bLKIm6XlpPkhnwYzleLZ7AMEco2C6QM8QPB3g3JpS3sqRhA 5rEP4lL16BmijmF+CHoPE/zwgKZbKpyVDqvIW5IDgvfIC2X4pbZDRvGIUKaGSB4+ ksZgUUnNyvfQr2p7jokCMwQQAQgAHRYhBH4XCgRchM9GDit5oBDvedn9g1MSBQJb tySbAAoJEBDvedn9g1MSeKkQAJm44jt1kwHgQgeDBKdjdvl0AjE0xVEQxriZ6lP/ l//34YT0auFfzsYIrChSpQXAEtobBAr4Ohw1Us+BZe+H5P8vm6LRuPwozC3SjwfX 4Iec8+9ot6tIVg4sbedDSgb/CCFVjsmIGcQ1P73JLJTBJ6mxYCV/gn3QC6bwDOFo 7kD9FDHCjRN8XfhHQ4Q9cYyt06uF31qG/aumgWYC9geCGgAwiHgwxNYb9GoJ0iZj CROwbYvLTcQgsVUW2bTmsVR13UVKDsdl02sRV7qcVYW6R0a3Ra8KudX+nt25H5DR Gd382KZ5W8pydsy/viTvD9z6v0ulChBYxAedIvGIClrhbxlLEPmIg4ImVOLGqsUg Vm32J95WOjEkk4PEZ12xSDBtwhSJqmJNboWlfmw43KdIbY8zNhffIO3N6O7FsdGx mqyHeLoTpqY+ySVUPpbuyW8ujnI/J//+6hdTZ9dQsEJQlWngKuWOQ5ma58MPSN88 zllsqhZAFQjNxqnkSzL6ZQ+v/jvuRRe16B80AeO55DsmbWsMv/YLLD1mSi7+Khy2 EtMBhgojWwrGMvdLN6X3mnzNJEscYyLxM9tSk+iySP2sLthK0BVgpAzBSdaf/ezI z60P+neHDzteNFf8Mn7lmgYk1amvZoJ29s5+n2HwxyRL5dVMyMdyQmntubbctfqr Z0tIiQGcBBABCgAGBQJbxcflAAoJEGo7ETk8pK1gnCYMAJY4FeIYjlIXGghFWzsB 4fYwK1+iaFpU3fSto5qcrqVtVPjXpwqczqBWeXGyQxiB0kan4OVAXydIeaP8EAuF CA7paP3s9STLJBO3KurkwyRkPW5zo0X7xVqaVToRsX2Ul98KVJoHYQD1KdezEtwl vpNwiiBr42AYR751Vm6JBVAbQXuFpB3c8bUV0OkkRxNFtL8/2PieHar58n5dntGk bPlPkztahsFqktgacIgXHX5vaT+7YeeZ1DWLOYjGO0wNhkOSeroCmxwJUikU7joB p823L7r5KfpqWTPpSCzVstQKZUGmmoE1qCswY/Ud5wvp9SccpIILkRXj0rZRtfnE 5MpL3hjmtNzfDd9qIsJtBJlSB2hZwAsVm1l+EWN9hG3tqyA43niUMy2n6q690of3 berSiQ+kvY/aC9Hx8I+bKzOV9/J2VUTqfaPZa4Uy2rVX5Q2p69n/PMj7mEer0rCL 3j9V16J9c+s0BSkXoKdtYdB0TWVhBgUybd9qtYcwHWvhP7QuU3RlcGhlbiBGYXJy ZWxsIDxzdGVwaGVuQHRvbGVyYW50bmV0d29ya3MuY29tPokCPQQTAQgAJwUCWj1R WgIbAwUJCZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBasvrxexcr6jsc EADEcB0WQEZn2AkrzDs1RhL0Lp6cZi0BigofkbcGfdhJyMSs19C0dhvncrAFClVI 6/Udw3yFtDyYtOCf2W3M3A1K6/RfEizCLzTsdFIhni9gOJLlUpXViQtgrlstjk7h qVV3Ooz4BlCqS4cG7rfqf4LQQPpTAuFUEV9I28FBUB2irqC+v4gTysIgpMw0bA1y BU9sX5jE/tRkzqnuzZrkwiobDtRFJ9qp+7O2JtcY4EsVtLAsaodJKc5cF8R4OvB1 n66vxxcgg9Eh4JNWZ47xsaCmAGo1Bcb2jIY35OtgAL7gCGLRSMKTtAaPy1/fEgIq hCljJ9x40Fkn/3r2BX21WC9HFSPFTBz2RluLRzxdgxOrkYK8EiHUPoE5b1AEzZKw 2AbeXfr57f5zYsN3IqfbQLUjMYtUN1wK3Pjb+idD972wyXMWt8uOzlI7b9Ocu+nY m2whBfJv9Pmp3QYTmPz+LB9lH65VNVUSxSXVr5iWXO3qx1HtEiGEqkporMQCTh3T 5Ud3PvMSRBFFKNs9WhJ/Lxz+SV30WLwG6dr5mQqlzAhb4Phc/zekZyXRdS/oDKrB LUucS36O//49JeyRi1QvOfxnfmIqRIAf/k3PoYJmTo5E82//r5Qj3YGlRu78ba0H Arxs+ACD6AnEHHcbswpbtVEKYzlSu0Ar0Dc7vRWM/IyQdIkBHAQQAQgABgUCWj1S oAAKCRAvPIc2gF+NosIsB/9f/29FNla3BJfGIEIDnhrqGD0i9bSa89SqBd++uG06 TQgW5wsqtNcrwn81yZTq6XE6i9VtD4GKfqC0d4KZJr9bnbeD81cI64VOdL8zJWJs 0vj5EIXCobKyX74Kb4uePUyZqwT2Q74I116u/HwA9/FXsPo5isbh4ZqD4t0VHpWk mfq1FPT9a/JPyX46qKqB2Fce/7Qy+SQP1NfkuUlbhUH/JG9aSSYvk3lznNiH41x9 M+FDlL106itXOubrl3oi2fT3fsSedq7uzt+IV0DQEeNaoQAUuwEhdB8IWOMqN2wo DjGVKJftfsSWY9ilZrnDBNDrp0vRqcx33LUMkIw4d7iBiQIzBBABCAAdFiEEfhcK BFyEz0YOK3mgEO952f2DUxIFAlu3JJwACgkQEO952f2DUxJjuw/6ApHSsVTWD4a0 H6FJ23A9Ftpy+aXZ4vYlzkSrfsn2ECrEfK3lXQh/uzwjJUDYZeB1/BQsFZtcYNQO JSSHbQ49BFRLwb1J/wBZG4bbmrkLxnNbKDKQvzxEpclkMW0Dj0J6o7kGrmzIGGrh B+JJN99AcineHRug8ZSFIERRCmigxdhAKU0BFD7P+5HNHltSL3DF1c2fFOf2JrgB KVoE+9RhMZjWNbYetFFLCkjXb5Rpay9zeMm1DxfSTGAnuOwUXW6qq4hnl5+VC/48 ceDZElLLfu7RQUZv44pkSTOWZs+iQoJiHMFHk9wPqyB2Vok1yJ2a2j27WhXrJlPw nZbgJO5RyWDG3p/eVmpl5Uuc2dsfIpR17KnAuWpghK6V+cyFncDoGCl/YG2Mvool sW08FiZh3Ej4dnJjj25TZkeFG74JJDXLvMYpJfSBGnmETv4Dhcm2xPqVMuFuL1qJ lMbVLrMo2GXeo03OzNyvbs+u8WLIaGm5hC7N1CXY8wZs4jo6OJ/expvnc07dEuws 4zT3AiWv3nIouWReRStZy9QkavDocqbyPmilcdPCYk4BsOlzpwwO74hNG7iyl0Kd AlwTxGQ7y0rJou6HYa1TmRhIEr3vKvlW+JfUUrqtjXgsuacTXo4+Ira2JUErL2cY zQMq1j4r1ZyhFnuz93s7Rsx/Nw0+0YuJAZwEEAEKAAYFAlvFx+UACgkQajsROTyk rWCJqwv+NLVPE4sD4sDA2/6Ek7UsRIUkg+S39fhqWsLc4rtw/mDunv8Un61I3K04 fZ2Ry4nF9hZM0a710UvXFbStvrzRJO3EAAcdJR9LTCd19e8UeruQbIee3YT91U4N kC9JMpecfq62/teOAU2e5P3fWYaLs5ZX7zCLwWuBcW2l3SyoljQczM85HhJ3XHm+ FnwQ6D9xRle+lvWTcuC9d1yAyUb8IOospcL2lJTmy8e3r79R24hPlSB4LDe0wEN8 AXbagrcAQZjwyaHyWxjJbTwZ0b43WGdfIqZ1ElOeoffbketPGRmWvx5xUvb2ALFB BdETzV270gs5XDJgJ1SIIKOyDADxwvroTe2jD8C/841eEql5QSow3s/U3zRqk3mt tto8Qw/DN71aeh6dmYSsvd2UjsHw/vofOPRBGxZLEkKTEvMnhmMW9hiKPkPia+Qg evYE020qpKSxLEdWA8nprHwxmGiDNesCfXSC6vm1qfyj5g8HzxSckq9ZaMhKMCo7 vxflUEDuuQINBFo9UDIBEAD6DdHQfMav8OXfhjTteoarOrlJTSdci727xiezGPuB HmpvceBRZgRasdbaMc4HJee+R9+5x/nLPCuy/DxDyIjwIUeJNgc+l7LjI9WfpHTD 8U4xxjvR5Mi7+ToQQUOUNuzT0O0pyuxP1uY3RehHEhOVfBZO59ipSeZL5iQC6T5M sK1SKfs51pLa5ToC1rc8tBJ4zZmxRAyZiYc/AH2uZ/6rYjTTkAn1DVI9DYo2D/zE 4bGjXdJW5pKphFB2lX3dG4I7ODi+5e1H6A/QpCu6z8/ZkIQ+9T1xcX/YwiFeA7Pb TuW/eITbMbI1eV3+fyym9aT7Rsflmp31Zxtr+sZwGGZf00ooMBFmqOS//NUQ/Vf3 vDUew1h5QU1yDaWT3NApvi+XWPH9TPy6TMfZA2FThHf11sX/gDBa5JWQZbptPEcm oazpiKZt91CrFPOaoXDPck/Q61dfmr/oPikfByYnASIM3OwEuXqyQ9JDRfKrem5r +oA/wxWb5jELElAhOpnyqMMvOh7uz1foUssL8MAv2TGXmxpVJ8Nu4je6wf96Z22f Q0D38zud+CKH3bMP3ayXXJBcdPoENrzFbWP5FTg/4TTDJ3vOAHZR5iCunYghx8b7 Ffa4UbkwlD+dh8GiIAtvT51Ac0cO0Wc0Zjc57zPUz1zloMbf+zb1Bsn7DuEQoqj1 gwARAQABiQIlBBgBCAAPBQJaPVAyAhsMBQkJlCYAAAoJEFqy+vF7FyvqrC8P/1tF 6TeR83xD6MasqXyrBjwcLmziaF0Mlkj8k/YUiZ/knb53n97xQnh9yxPv0TT8Wpfd n3BmvqGyh8+ouHX9jMOxiRkMdNhIauVYY/8jmRfBSYWcFkfMzdYasvdLtmYJgx25 2HKTFdeOrszoOjWjEzwmh+tca3AFMu/nB++/KAmi5UJV7zsZ7uYJ5jm97LV5SLjN JIXXM+lHqCDrjDaDhNczmq1LCRlU6/WDjvkuwaVhZG4lXxMDrvKnXMkjseQ2oKjw rIdfQM86H1z5J31lfhqop+of0cimcIsBgSCPu+h96LHuAzeRBCbDKeqrfZtAZAGs okRina9947fRWxXHh3O66ILmXKNRxxWbDkPvYnQWUat8SbSTDoPWrDIGDRIAypqY o3pcN2OE0C1chqgDZQxkr+9kYZQpupOAN2TR+fM7JvbO9coKI8Uqog8CopoMeDQk d0YjcqlB1E0svODHTzcSoRzogDBYDqNLP7qVkNXpcOAXSVioBgiSDf7o5RdS/qmU yXBIeq6I5z8xBcd+BQ/n/9Frkm6K7IKP3ngUP4wEoiPx5ZE5+fPIScGmVUcZIMhk vMvem9XXh1yyhqN14gfjmLwPGdWbrgG8QUe0s2WeWIyss6uTiyF+ZbJSo2XOKVc3 YFMVUUfgyudqAV1wWdZinUk+H3pkqOKoHAy/8fST =3DYzQY -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- --------------3296ED4B6D430CD610C4018D-- --QmY2Mrby5m8uEPHwxm6ytU1lk5EQYoSve-- --5ijYufyCKG0v4xf8wO7cyLJXS4FFP3Wh8 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAl4BHhoACgkQWrL68XsX K+rI+BAAz24RmxNUV97y0zxFj2TGYAb9KtdhxBDcunopmAdlCYNXvJIoSQOAVYXC bCg2Z/vuGDJh6mXQ26JfuUj5ZHXHdv8jWiBg4v2KAXg6ln5l9dAvYWJh5pNhG5vl rJMhTyos8SyXCnqZSZHUiUvus/9xIhnFzKxldrWyqX3SfGx7+erBTGD2rWQgLvaX CHXYeyVkGdzVeE0nxB0v2sgEMq1L0iiQZu3vz3heDd27FqWjMus/vt71o8FeQ15p moFhY20+q4XsSTtRHCJawYlQH/JJT7RAln2U4rQLV7FCeujEN72XcKyOY59xG19x okLURbv0IDcnCr4d3Lkh0PFDRqVZAks55U0rJR2CZLdmFjwyyicngmSgIiwn4m+y kmSUl4j+cKV2DOkfktAb/1PGiOGh4jq70cL5h8PvL0cy9gn6nb8Ie0yiHboE205s yJI32BYrRsoSbGU+2j2wdxZsQ7EqJDVcfrDNfUG4jCVSO/5w9Wsqr5HzMjnjAMiI AisuYDWONN628WOXw3cOYRVW0VRtumkcdGhnxr8U7ibd7kouRSxsp+oJ8/fxDXYv HkYk0cnaoYvTx1AepW2CQGvLEGN1wtpwfgDsa0puWWonLEv0RmPR9or5OyZtQ+Y2 81Ij8PkipikGgYezcriiin9zwbtffOJtrNekD9aEZWvU7UZW4w4= =Iod0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --5ijYufyCKG0v4xf8wO7cyLJXS4FFP3Wh8-- From nobody Tue Dec 24 01:11:21 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EE2112007A for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2019 01:11:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=open-xchange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1fXsC6KIvx-r for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2019 01:11:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx4.open-xchange.com (alcatraz.open-xchange.com [87.191.39.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E691E12004A for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2019 01:11:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from open-xchange.com (imap.open-xchange.com [10.20.30.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx4.open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0FE1F6A256; Tue, 24 Dec 2019 10:11:16 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=open-xchange.com; s=201705; t=1577178676; bh=ZHa1HCrwkRmmGXp11f4PwTMYK5FWzjud8yvRlVfIzH4=; h=Date:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=t3hDD9JYHCS8fPBSfMHpR4xkUY6wl2vX/12jPyPk8w11OKbsxrYB4lQiaMSEfjqyJ zdCCnbxb/aI/fC21NlujOJZOkmkpooId64vAEPqaGoCqhiwM0cBpRPWVdHjXtB8r9d /Y0lRWz1iJrIcSz/ty+xoUWJPjoPn0YCd5aOB8BO+pqAj5AoMRbzyxKwHEgJcYxdzq kBKd60a2MCukG6M7IXxYVnV03/KYcPBRHkYpOZHwKWjgAIvWMO8/MuurG9fDk102gW wfLXxvWRM6lgAJl1UxEZQpL4cIZa3KRJozql5h/+PD5PLrp2TLuUareuMlANPqGK4z Gra7tHzf1ghEw== Received: from appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com (appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com [10.20.28.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 034403C0482; Tue, 24 Dec 2019 10:11:16 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2019 10:11:15 +0100 (CET) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Stephen Farrell , architecture-discuss@iab.org Message-ID: <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.3-Rev3 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2019 09:11:19 -0000 > Il 23/12/2019 20:51 Stephen Farrell ha scritto: > > > Hiya, > > Just on this bit... > > On 23/12/2019 14:45, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > > A question: given the insistence > > Insistence is a very odd term to use. Apologies, this is not my native language. > > in the charter on lack of diversity > > as a key threat to resilience, do I take it well that this programme > > is meant to subsume the past discussions on centralization and > > consolidation of the Internet? > > No. Are you possibly reading between the lines and seeing > the shadow of some sneaky scheme that's just not there? :-) No, I actually thought it would be a good thing to generalise the discussions on centralization into a structured programme on the threats to the ability of the Internet to survive in the long term. Up to now, we seem to have an unstructured discussion every now and then, when something pops up and then dies, with no clear long term plan on how to address the issue. -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy From nobody Tue Dec 24 02:14:58 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB19C120D25 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2019 02:14:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nokia.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pHmgZY-_nfo9 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2019 02:14:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from FRA01-PR2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr120122.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.12.122]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BBB4012012E for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2019 02:14:52 -0800 (PST) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=WwRfYwjhN9lRaybvbCp0JJlcMA4Y9O1fqnnTaiG4kUrxcWA54hTqt1DC5TbARiDr9ptCn/Vm8ty0WAW2QcjslJXswBFwwe9+/li1rGVCzef1dHfTVX0qcrzMHubzpIQh7tYBGpVpZznAS52IJX+d3axjgtTl9Ij3EybaJpfUty5y7SJINni7jzoG19qfhp1uY7sWPXTtM/g/9AexWSBqcmnKgyG9qVgh+4VcmRBQbSgvD/7n9BQkYFXKTvwrsEjk3fO81QZhsbQMKYXJNO36CJG+UOhMzcSVNPCfGpbIKDHe380AuKFN+E9OxUOJti5U5dsOgaO8ylRlLLJctG2J9g== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=B4FmE3emJtewVAUsDVE0/M+BO5tk8BMgdjqvB3Ia3Tc=; b=l43u39shPdRgbhEc3vGKUQWKbkWaA3VweiBOpcffCyO+Q8pHKSVMX15NeAwKNwE/VAEZx4Vi/p93nrVN/nMhxXwycZfBMULP8rLcSP8oQQsPTpxgyBvtTqgtMgCEfH0g9Ef8gFzJBkeE445dY7ar/Gvrq7ZOQ8SFdPDOP/PA2Utw3GsIuvz42hHFpEXt6/8dZ/gSGftSZ6kYcDG08EFe9FmqhBn/IT6VTlJR+H3f5vnaBlE5RtuDdHUO2YK8Yikx7MaAFPmhp7823LyBNv8sA5N3aLAV3wQvDPHKixFkqcBSEfs+H23kviL9aJktVyxQmVBi6kbZsu397aoMienOYA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=nokia.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=nokia.com; dkim=pass header.d=nokia.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nokia.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-nokia-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=B4FmE3emJtewVAUsDVE0/M+BO5tk8BMgdjqvB3Ia3Tc=; b=ekUwfSxlyyjGsq6SK3sFBRzAS/N+GDGtbktf1XSWUnNYJe+Y+Z1v13ijBmVvsD4a0ugLD93k2kVBeDyvxb/FVxObBi0AZbHBAdK0949bDTbx7Z1Z02WOGjzMWJSG1+bVHMs+2ZABXFyyfi0cJCtVSrGRuWh3EFjBo0TdumoE0hw= Received: from PR1PR07MB4891.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (20.177.208.146) by PR1PR07MB5017.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (20.177.211.29) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2581.10; Tue, 24 Dec 2019 10:14:50 +0000 Received: from PR1PR07MB4891.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::24dd:1dfc:4bf1:9b6c]) by PR1PR07MB4891.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::24dd:1dfc:4bf1:9b6c%7]) with mapi id 15.20.2581.007; Tue, 24 Dec 2019 10:14:50 +0000 From: "Ciavaglia, Laurent (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay)" To: Stephen Farrell , "architecture-discuss@iab.org" Thread-Topic: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience Thread-Index: AQHVtzoJxIFDgno3SEaDXNztK6/OrKfJFGQA Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2019 10:14:49 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=laurent.ciavaglia@nokia.com; x-originating-ip: [176.130.37.253] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 28986dd5-d4c0-4915-d0d2-08d7885a1c63 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: PR1PR07MB5017: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-forefront-prvs: 0261CCEEDF x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(39860400002)(376002)(366004)(396003)(346002)(136003)(13464003)(189003)(199004)(2906002)(33656002)(110136005)(186003)(53546011)(478600001)(6506007)(26005)(5660300002)(52536014)(8936002)(7696005)(8676002)(81156014)(81166006)(71200400001)(64756008)(966005)(66574012)(86362001)(9686003)(66946007)(76116006)(55016002)(66476007)(316002)(66446008)(66556008)(296002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:PR1PR07MB5017; H:PR1PR07MB4891.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: nokia.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: VEgQpErAvtgHJtOAZj8UE/LUFw203ro6qIwc1xHWQa2FaiCIzQ36KkAYXP3cNrZL9rirvUI/uhEQq1ZJksIye7bq9yoEQah2VWrgZytqCpAXxmuHITkRKiPV9fh8lLDPX8qyEiJ6Jfn3bbVBUqwvh3rqYXsZQbt6UFOctOc6gR+3o/0DZFxhMdDK01kwet1ULeCVAXj20km/+9pF5DzmMzlD6jnADBI9bXjE3cv7G6nfji4slGtYkzUgEN1CbixCC2+4NqWDWOfXdIjAvOOxwTV0a2QAn2TnBm9EDRlfacllNqk6pVVlSVaQrqKBFxZ/GJ4s7DgqIjWbu0haHPMJx4kSIbU2dC+8lMwI6p98mMj4S8n5OqrUsPoBclFnL7g8T8/p8DgRMQtg2dJW689l6L9hAXe6d9lETcTJAyzLBnF5G/DCrSAiebRDLDCxbdVqPNoGyv2bOYbZOUGQvygTJDqoKacbv8wvsI+Gwock782F/RMnS7BReIupWpxyvbysZBrIC5ua3SoYWbCH9WBzn6kekh8LCyH8j+wxsvcnJU0= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: nokia.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 28986dd5-d4c0-4915-d0d2-08d7885a1c63 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 24 Dec 2019 10:14:50.0342 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5d471751-9675-428d-917b-70f44f9630b0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: AzTyjjFZeAliEahsQVyHBKkYdmi3v6PlilFFlMp7KNQOvxbEvs3Rqx9Ph4e+f+EiVjKfdpnxUQ7Vox+yBDSroaeE5W/Z3YfTRAotKScL8A8= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: PR1PR07MB5017 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2019 10:14:55 -0000 SGkgU3RlcGhlbiwgQWxsLA0KDQpJIGFsc28gc3VwcG9ydCB0aGUgaW5pdGlhdGl2ZSBhbmQgdGhp bmsgaXQncyBhbiBpbnRlcmVzdGluZyB0b3BpYyB0byBpbnZlc3RpZ2F0ZS4NCg0KRXh0cmFjdHMg b2YgY29tbWVudHMgbWFkZSBieSBKdWVyZ2VuIFNjaG9lbndhZWxkZXIgc29tZSB0aW1lIGFnbyBp biByZXZpZXcgb2YgdGhlIE5NUkcgd29yayBvbiBpbnRlbnQtYmFzZWQtbmV0d29ya2luZywgd2hp Y2ggSSB0aGluayBhcmUgcmVsZXZhbnQgdG8gdGhlIGRpc2N1c3Npb24uDQoNCkZyb20gSnVlcmdl biBTY2hvZW53YWVsZGVyOiANCiIgSSBiZWxpZXZlIHdlIG5lZWQgdG8gdGhpbmsgYWJvdXQgc3lz dGVtcyB0aGF0IGhhdmUgdG8gcmVhY3QgdG8gc3RyZXNzIGFuZCBkaXN0dXJiYW5jZS4gVGhlcmUg YXJlIGRpZmZlcmVudCBwb3NzaWJsZSByZWFjdGlvbnM6DQoNCiAgLSByb2J1c3RuZXNzOiB0aGUg c3lzdGVtIGlzIHJvYnVzdCBhZ2FpbnN0IGNlcnRhaW4gc3RyZXNzLCBpLmUuLCBpdA0KICAgIHdv bid0IHJlYWN0IHRvIHRoZSBzdHJlc3MgaXQgZ2V0cyBleHBvc2VkIHRvDQoNCiAgLSByZXNpbGll bmNlOiB0aGUgc3lzdGVtIHJlY292ZXJzIGZyb20gc3RyZXNzIGl0IGdvdCBleHBvc2VkIHRvIChp Zg0KICAgIGl0IHJlY292ZXJzIHZlcnkgZmFzdCwgaXQgbWF5IGFwcGVhciB0byBiZSByb2J1c3Qp DQoNCiAgLSBhbnRpZnJhZ2lsZTogdGhlIHN5c3RlbSAibGVhcm5zIiBmcm9tIHN0cmVzcyBhbmQg aW5jcmVhc2VzIGl0cw0KICAgIHJlc2lsaWVuY2UgYW5kIHJvYnVzdG5lc3MNCg0KSG93IGRvIG1v ZGVybiBzeXN0ZW1zIHRoYXQgcHJvdmlkZSBzZXJ2aWNlcyAyNC83IHdvcms/IFdlbGwsIHlvdSBo YXZlIHBlb3BsZSBhbmQgc3lzdGVtcyBjb25zdGFudGx5IGRhbWFnaW5nIHRoZW0gYW5kIHRoZXkg aGF2ZSB0byAibGVhcm4iIGhvdyB0byBkZWFsIHdpdGggdGhlIGNvbnN0YW50IGluZmx1eCBvZiBk YW1hZ2UuIChBbmQgbGVhcm4gbWF5YmUgdG8gYSBsYXJnZSBleHRlbmQgaHVtYW4gYXNzaXN0ZWQu KSBUaGUgbWFpbiBwb2ludCBoZXJlIGlzIHRvIHJlY29nbml6ZSB0aGF0IHRoZSBwcmltYXJ5IHNl cnZpY2Ugc2V0dXAgaXMgdXN1YWxseSBub3QgdGhlIGlzc3VlLCB0aGUgaGFuZGxpbmcgb2Ygc3Ry ZXNzIChmYWlsdXJlcyBhbmQgYXR0YWNrcykgaXMgd2hhdCBkZWNpZGVzIGFib3V0IGxvbmctdGVy bSBlZmZpY2llbmN5IGFuZCBzdGFiaWxpdHkgb2YgYSBzZXJ2aWNlIChhbmQgd2hlcmUgbGlrZWx5 IGEgYmlnIGh1bWFuIG9wZXJhdGlvbmFsIGNvc3QgaXRlbSBpcyBsb2NhdGVkKS4gIg0KDQpJIHRo aW5rIHJlZmVyZW5jZXMgZnJvbSBPcmdhbmljIENvbXB1dGluZyBhbmQgQXV0b25vbWljIENvbXB1 dGluZy9OZXR3b3JraW5nIGxpdGVyYXR1cmUgY291bGQgYmUgdmFsdWFibGUgZS5nLiBmb3Igc2Vs Zi1vcmdhbml6aW5nLCBzZWxmLWhlYWxpbmcgc3lzdGVtcy4NCg0KV291bGQgYmUgaGFwcHkgdG8g Y29udHJpYnV0ZSBhbmQgcHJvdmlkZSBpbnB1dHMuDQoNCkJlc3QgcmVnYXJkcywgTGF1cmVudC4g DQoNCg0KPiAtLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KPiBGcm9tOiBBcmNoaXRlY3R1cmUt ZGlzY3VzcyA8YXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJlLWRpc2N1c3MtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZz4gT24NCj4gQmVo YWxmIE9mIFN0ZXBoZW4gRmFycmVsbA0KPiBTZW50OiBGcmlkYXksIERlY2VtYmVyIDIwLCAyMDE5 IDE0OjMzDQo+IFRvOiBhcmNoaXRlY3R1cmUtZGlzY3Vzc0BpYWIub3JnDQo+IFN1YmplY3Q6IFth cmNoLWRdIHBvc3NpYmxlIG5ldyBJQUIgcHJvZ3JhbW1lIG9uIEludGVybmV0IHJlc2lsaWVuY2UN Cj4gDQo+IA0KPiBIaXlhLA0KPiANCj4gVGhlIElBQiBhcmUgY29uc2lkZXJpbmcgc3RhcnRpbmcg dXAgYSBwcm9ncmFtbWUgb24gSW50ZXJuZXQNCj4gcmVzaWxpZW5jZSBhcyBkZXNjcmliZWQgYXQg WzFdLiBXZSdkIGxvdmUgdG8gZ2V0IGZlZWRiYWNrDQo+IG9uIHRoYXQgaWRlYSwgdGhlIHRleHQg YXQgWzFdIGFuZCB0byBmaW5kIG91dCBpZiBwZW9wbGUNCj4gd291bGQgbGlrZSB0byBwYXJ0aWNp cGF0ZSBhbmQgd2hhdCB0b3BpY3MgeW91IG1pZ2h0IHN1Z2dlc3QNCj4gYmUgY29uc2lkZXJlZCAo b3IgZXZlbiBiZXR0ZXIsIHdoYXQgeW91J2QgYWN0dWFsbHkgZG8gd29yaw0KPiBvbiB5b3Vyc2Vs ZjotKS4NCj4gDQo+IFRoZXJlJ3Mgbm8gc3BlY2lmaWMgZGVhZGxpbmUgZm9yIHRoaXMsIGJ1dCB0 aGUgSUFCIHdpbGwNCj4gY29uc2lkZXIgdGhpcyBmdXJ0aGVyIGluIHRoZSBuZXcgeWVhciwgc28g aWYgeW91IGNvdWxkDQo+IHRha2UgYSBmZXcgbWludXRlcyB0byBzaGFyZSB5b3VyIHRob3VnaHRz IG9uIHRoaXMgYmVmb3JlDQo+IG9yIG92ZXIgdGhlIGhvbGlkYXlzIHRoYXQnZCBiZSBncmVhdC4N Cj4gDQo+IFRoYW5rcywNCj4gUy4NCj4gDQo+IA0KPiBbMV0gaHR0cHM6Ly9naXRodWIuY29tL2lu dGFyY2hib2FyZC9yZXNpbGllbmNlLw0K From nobody Tue Dec 24 03:24:30 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B368A120D44 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2019 03:24:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=netorgft5189650.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PzbdyEjxkZRh for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2019 03:24:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from GBR01-LO2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr100078.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.10.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A38F4120D3F for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2019 03:24:26 -0800 (PST) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=b/EyZ7hueiIz04xPKuleOEA73KAg1C2ZoXpNirKAJ1Yx3x9VF7EWpXV5MKh2jNYSAnrAk8kfu3p+C/B+R005pxrt1GIPA/tDKaPy3a9GAopfKzKfIuwfYJHzeA3pZOFLASZT4RQho47og4/9IUTV1CDZrcGa27yI8TyLhn5CANW753oxtebc0Pjght5ig40nkeX2Ee/XEIuUhlgJVIKiKER97XQGGXjrZdL+uSXzlu/lQB1iegN5QP4L73vRIUeAV5jbkyKOcL3LG6OI7jAc5EtMCo4Kcmaa9eQ5wXH+R2wt+6FayuaZoD2XFd4kGgfQq9//yPMIRx108rA2OToUVg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=zkbKuoxJYaqpen4i28k9/EzUZI8A3gBpREcoin/2FGs=; b=eDMZwCKZAGiUxkT51HscDemG77wnmpV09hOQj2qnxzAUOhwLeoiAgb+JGrAlRPGG0EPf5sVcjQ2H3XcM7TeJVQ0i6abk05U/7Vmxa+fFM6Eb16tc7+bPk71Z3Iy+kzduZikmEOQMyjFG979G5lLG5FGvV1g1/wp35PkVz+aj27kdkYuME8D2cVOLQlBagZ6y5hHzdJkI6288FZqMjr8+xYJusrmJ6b9hsv1ks2jdmJ/4GEmHd9NeU+BGr/u70jIzrEVvuMoYN8dSGIgy4SAo3iO8WriWa8iU7bYe6WXtZZs4v9XbqqDS3dPp4r1RI+i4ao54cFw/qvt8oOvaj/fRlg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=419.consulting; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=419.consulting; dkim=pass header.d=419.consulting; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=NETORGFT5189650.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-NETORGFT5189650-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=zkbKuoxJYaqpen4i28k9/EzUZI8A3gBpREcoin/2FGs=; b=gLRHKFezQ98aLk7TTh8IlzOSJITWAxeaIoKA8O6GfSGdi75KUTeTjP6c0bQDFnDmg50EILPBSzc0obfI6oIoQU27g1/wwkaV0xRkUetT621pKI1CG8g3ah/C3vA5UTRjHVq0T7UGBgIJl0owTWaup1vK5cAkL44qSKDfyIg+OGU= Received: from LO2P265MB0573.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (10.166.85.15) by LO2P265MB0542.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (10.166.99.149) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2559.17; Tue, 24 Dec 2019 11:24:23 +0000 Received: from LO2P265MB0573.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::7d46:b916:32e9:1d73]) by LO2P265MB0573.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::7d46:b916:32e9:1d73%7]) with mapi id 15.20.2559.017; Tue, 24 Dec 2019 11:24:23 +0000 From: Andrew Campling To: Vittorio Bertola , Stephen Farrell , "architecture-discuss@iab.org" Thread-Topic: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience Thread-Index: AQHVukMDSAF2l/t4vk24jZm59sMjO6fJIn0Q Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2019 11:24:23 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=andrew.campling@419.consulting; x-originating-ip: [2a00:23c4:a499:2e00:f47b:987b:10a0:7d2e] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 0b6a45ee-ddb2-4d52-eea3-08d78863d417 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: LO2P265MB0542: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-forefront-prvs: 0261CCEEDF x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(366004)(39830400003)(396003)(136003)(346002)(376002)(51444003)(189003)(199004)(7696005)(52536014)(81166006)(316002)(66574012)(71200400001)(53546011)(186003)(6506007)(81156014)(8676002)(5660300002)(508600001)(33656002)(64756008)(66476007)(66556008)(66946007)(55016002)(86362001)(110136005)(8936002)(9686003)(44832011)(76116006)(66446008)(2906002)(46492004); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:LO2P265MB0542; H:LO2P265MB0573.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: 419.consulting does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: 419.consulting X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 0b6a45ee-ddb2-4d52-eea3-08d78863d417 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 24 Dec 2019 11:24:23.6393 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 9c2ced3e-7522-4755-87dc-f983abc66ec3 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: dVvcOaT9PeGuQhdvq5DGmsB0fPPEZg86T7G/nqwVStZMQaQOEuwZ0y92H668yujXWLVOfqHU9VkElD88/9NNFiaJU1mUDtXwMG19WZ3+QDA= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: LO2P265MB0542 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2019 11:24:29 -0000 PiBPbiAyNCBEZWNlbWJlciAyMDE5IDA5OjExLCBWaXR0b3JpbyBCZXJ0b2xhIHdyb3RlOg0KPj4g SWwgMjMvMTIvMjAxOSAyMDo1MSBTdGVwaGVuIEZhcnJlbGwgPHN0ZXBoZW4uZmFycmVsbEBjcy50 Y2QuaWU+IGhhIHNjcml0dG86DQo+PiANCj4+ICANCj4+IEhpeWEsDQo+PiANCj4+IEp1c3Qgb24g dGhpcyBiaXQuLi4NCj4+IA0KPj4gT24gMjMvMTIvMjAxOSAxNDo0NSwgVml0dG9yaW8gQmVydG9s YSB3cm90ZToNCj4+ID4gQSBxdWVzdGlvbjogZ2l2ZW4gdGhlIGluc2lzdGVuY2UNCj4+IA0KPj4g SW5zaXN0ZW5jZSBpcyBhIHZlcnkgb2RkIHRlcm0gdG8gdXNlLg0KPg0KPkFwb2xvZ2llcywgdGhp cyBpcyBub3QgbXkgbmF0aXZlIGxhbmd1YWdlLiANCj4NCj4+ID4gaW4gdGhlIGNoYXJ0ZXIgb24g bGFjayBvZiBkaXZlcnNpdHkNCj4+ID4gYXMgYSBrZXkgdGhyZWF0IHRvIHJlc2lsaWVuY2UsIGRv IEkgdGFrZSBpdCB3ZWxsIHRoYXQgdGhpcyBwcm9ncmFtbWUgDQo+PiA+IGlzIG1lYW50IHRvIHN1 YnN1bWUgdGhlIHBhc3QgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbnMgb24gY2VudHJhbGl6YXRpb24gYW5kIA0KPj4gPiBj b25zb2xpZGF0aW9uIG9mIHRoZSBJbnRlcm5ldD8NCj4+IA0KPj4gTm8uIEFyZSB5b3UgcG9zc2li bHkgcmVhZGluZyBiZXR3ZWVuIHRoZSBsaW5lcyBhbmQgc2VlaW5nIHRoZSBzaGFkb3cgDQo+PiBv ZiBzb21lIHNuZWFreSBzY2hlbWUgdGhhdCdzIGp1c3Qgbm90IHRoZXJlPyA6LSkNCj4NCj4gTm8s IEkgYWN0dWFsbHkgdGhvdWdodCBpdCB3b3VsZCBiZSBhIGdvb2QgdGhpbmcgdG8gZ2VuZXJhbGlz ZSB0aGUgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbnMgb24gY2VudHJhbGl6YXRpb24gDQo+IGludG8gYSBzdHJ1Y3R1cmVk IHByb2dyYW1tZSBvbiB0aGUgdGhyZWF0cyB0byB0aGUgYWJpbGl0eSBvZiB0aGUgSW50ZXJuZXQg dG8gc3Vydml2ZSBpbiB0aGUgbG9uZyANCj4gdGVybS4gVXAgdG8gbm93LCB3ZSBzZWVtIHRvIGhh dmUgYW4gdW5zdHJ1Y3R1cmVkIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gZXZlcnkgbm93IGFuZCB0aGVuLCB3aGVuIA0K PiBzb21ldGhpbmcgcG9wcyB1cCBhbmQgdGhlbiBkaWVzLCB3aXRoIG5vIGNsZWFyIGxvbmcgdGVy bSBwbGFuIG9uIGhvdyB0byBhZGRyZXNzIHRoZSBpc3N1ZS4gDQoNCk5vdGluZyB0aGUgYWJvdmUg ZXhjaGFuZ2UsIEkgd29uZGVyIHdoZXRoZXIgYSB3aWRlciBkaXNjdXNzaW9uIG5lZWRzIHRvIHRh a2UgcGxhY2UgYWJvdXQgcmVzaWxpZW5jZSBhbmQgcmVsYXRlZCB0b3BpY3MgbGlrZSBjZW50cmFs aXNhdGlvbiBhbmQgY29uc29saWRhdGlvbi4gIFRvIGRvIHRoaXMgcHJvcGVybHkgaXQgcmVhbGx5 IG5lZWRzIHRoZSBpbnZvbHZlbWVudCBvZiBhIG11Y2ggbW9yZSBkaXZlcnNlIHNldCBvZiBzdGFr ZWhvbGRlcnMgYW5kIHJlYWxseSBuZWVkcyB0byBhZGRyZXNzIGJvdGggcG9saWN5IGFuZCB0ZWNo bmljYWwgY29uc2lkZXJhdGlvbnMgYXMganVzdCBkb2luZyB0aGUgbGF0dGVyIGluIGlzb2xhdGlv biB3aWxsIG5vdCByZWFsbHkgZ2V0IHRvIHRoZSBjb3JlIGlzc3Vlcy4gIEkgdGhpbmsgdGhhdCBh IGRlYmF0ZSBsZWQgYnkgYSBib2R5IGxpa2UgdGhlIElHRiBidXQgd2l0aCBpbnB1dCB3aGVuIGFw cHJvcHJpYXRlIG9uIHRlY2huaWNhbCBjb25zaWRlcmF0aW9ucyBieSB0aGUgSUFCL0lFVEYgd291 bGQgYmUgYSBtdWNoIG1vcmUgdXNlZnVsIGV4ZXJjaXNlIHRoYW4gc29tZXRoaW5nIGZvY3VzZWQg cHVyZWx5IHdpdGhpbiB0aGUgSUFCL0lFVEYuICANCg0KTm8gZG91YnQgb3RoZXJzIHdpbGwgaGF2 ZSB0aGVpciBvd24gdmlld3Mgb24gdGhpcy4NCg0KDQpBbmRyZXcgIA0K From nobody Tue Dec 24 06:17:33 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAB741200C1 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2019 06:17:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V0nLMBLrpVaC for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2019 06:17:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-sh.infomaniak.ch (smtp-sh.infomaniak.ch [128.65.195.4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 614E11200B7 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2019 06:17:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-2-0000.mail.infomaniak.ch ([10.5.36.107]) by smtp-sh.infomaniak.ch (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id xBOEHKGv016157 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 24 Dec 2019 15:17:20 +0100 Received: from [100.83.99.217] (unknown [213.55.221.55]) by smtp-2-0000.mail.infomaniak.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPA id E537810542C8F; Tue, 24 Dec 2019 15:17:19 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16G102) In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2019 15:17:18 +0100 Cc: Vittorio Bertola , Stephen Farrell , "architecture-discuss@iab.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> To: Andrew Campling X-Antivirus: Dr.Web (R) for Unix mail servers drweb plugin ver.6.0.2.8 X-Antivirus-Code: 0x100000 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2019 14:17:32 -0000 fwiw I personally see =E2=80=9Cresilience=E2=80=9D more or less as scoped in= this program description as the projection of the wider centralization/cons= olidation issue into the space that the IAB is equipped to say something use= ful about. Of course, I helped write the description after grappling unsucce= ssfully with consolidation with my =E2=80=9Carchitecture=E2=80=9D hat on for= quite some time, so I=E2=80=99m definitely biased to think that way. Agreed that discussion and action on consolidation needs to cast a wider net= , and is therefore perhaps not something an IAB program should take on. Cons= olidation is an economic externality in a great number of industries in the e= arly 21st century, and far bigger than the Internet. Cheers, and $preferred_holiday_greeting, Brian Sent from my iPhone On 24 Dec 2019, at 12:24, Andrew Campling w= rote: >>> On 24 December 2019 09:11, Vittorio Bertola wrote: >>> Il 23/12/2019 20:51 Stephen Farrell ha scrit= to: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Hiya, >>>=20 >>> Just on this bit... >>>=20 >>>> On 23/12/2019 14:45, Vittorio Bertola wrote: >>>> A question: given the insistence >>>=20 >>> Insistence is a very odd term to use. >>=20 >> Apologies, this is not my native language.=20 >>=20 >>>> in the charter on lack of diversity >>>> as a key threat to resilience, do I take it well that this programme=20= >>>> is meant to subsume the past discussions on centralization and=20 >>>> consolidation of the Internet? >>>=20 >>> No. Are you possibly reading between the lines and seeing the shadow=20 >>> of some sneaky scheme that's just not there? :-) >>=20 >> No, I actually thought it would be a good thing to generalise the discuss= ions on centralization=20 >> into a structured programme on the threats to the ability of the Internet= to survive in the long=20 >> term. Up to now, we seem to have an unstructured discussion every now and= then, when=20 >> something pops up and then dies, with no clear long term plan on how to a= ddress the issue.=20 >=20 > Noting the above exchange, I wonder whether a wider discussion needs to ta= ke place about resilience and related topics like centralisation and consoli= dation. To do this properly it really needs the involvement of a much more d= iverse set of stakeholders and really needs to address both policy and techn= ical considerations as just doing the latter in isolation will not really ge= t to the core issues. I think that a debate led by a body like the IGF but w= ith input when appropriate on technical considerations by the IAB/IETF would= be a much more useful exercise than something focused purely within the IAB= /IETF. =20 >=20 > No doubt others will have their own views on this. >=20 >=20 > Andrew =20 > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss From nobody Wed Dec 25 21:54:45 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BA6A120122 for ; Wed, 25 Dec 2019 21:54:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wHN49nJLjH4Q for ; Wed, 25 Dec 2019 21:54:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x32a.google.com (mail-ot1-x32a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA9E712002F for ; Wed, 25 Dec 2019 21:54:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x32a.google.com with SMTP id a15so31347655otf.1 for ; Wed, 25 Dec 2019 21:54:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=hNRVfLWpfkgEILlpWJdItKAtS2yjnDzgBON0SXyvNf4=; b=EpOIiMRHwgum0x1gow2d3UBsLgcC+2aPoyrZBnZ71S2ZQy8s+QkgJTgk4iU54rq1fH vNjlhprUM48XmSk6mDligWYHFvnYusmjo6Qqyxunzsc1zBwSiC8RlrguzaUV5ahLBeFM Ncn1SQsM6SVaFypQDJLE6icJv7QLkJ0Veia6UGcrSEWOlI1MHrrbgsZLiDAEXednRK/I EcGzxyRVVGVg2b+IaMC2OM17o1xyu9qUxujPVhPGa1JtSg9ynckJKcfbFxhV7LPJdTtX 1VJTCOYXBz5NbeC0itQZ6Ue7Ukv9VYYGNQTVjBy91CxH4R8DkJkNpnQHqb1qUrmd8u2V Gjmw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=hNRVfLWpfkgEILlpWJdItKAtS2yjnDzgBON0SXyvNf4=; b=WDRQglLRTK4Ff99Ld6bHLpP4ptjXJVZtwvMlXcZhxtnA7MkoO5hJdFRnXVpIfRYc8p 3M1Vp/LrOigXBWIKdokmygKwINjG1FgPhEBvPFHQ6gqm/i1v/5mOAkASYL0YNepz5VB7 ZAkAdWuKhz50HMOKfpytbeMniXDUqR6IX1hpelyfahgf3+fZPm2U2hf+H5C6LgChzzmA CiQMZs43v2uhihA8Fg1TdlpNkoJD/R2/leauppnWds7DfRf43X95o8rrJFYDHNR2yTfI j9WjSnpsralEdj4zp52bKliGm+ApHfCoPAkJQjIbPOrhhpcqEVRwoXMFhmmRhStFE0/K zSQQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWgk4q7A3Qdo++HxgyMCQjdv5GZrRTGW8/6lGcY2L8OOVQDGKJ2 fPw4/jSd76OycR0B/zfwF1VXCfBdrltd094dqN6YLg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwhi/z6MVa+vLvo+AJqWHqbuDySwnso++63bGWGQpehYZNGpJES6quAeEJEevGhTyB5zNQV9Mt5cR+mzz3IHW0= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:65da:: with SMTP id z26mr40351419oth.197.1577339681123; Wed, 25 Dec 2019 21:54:41 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6830:1155:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Wed, 25 Dec 2019 21:54:40 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20191215050931.0ba0c2c8@elandnews.com> References: <157403781873.6404.6154827441040413193.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <01246A3C-31EC-4B7B-841D-F799EEFADCB8@mnot.net> <227662299.12784.1575991106819@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <429195684.13066.1575996064551@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <0C729385-1361-460C-9C16-E1BE1680A3E6@fugue.com> <1100636076.15285.1576072588087@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <4A034991-E5C8-4797-B6BF-9484BB2FA614@fugue.com> <31473650-0872-4EFE-A99C-E3DD4CDBC700@cisco.com> <326C92A0-5F29-411D-99DE-7C785CF73EE7@cisco.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20191214065306.11c9aa98@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20191215050931.0ba0c2c8@elandnews.com> From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 12:54:40 +0700 Message-ID: To: S Moonesamy Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006231c4059a950331" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-iab-for-the-users-01.txt X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 05:54:43 -0000 --0000000000006231c4059a950331 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear S. Moonsamy, Apologize for days to respond your messages... "Innacurate information"...? Shall we take moments for such a "pedagogy of networks"...? -- as the information above was about the networks of communications and informations, about the Internet and the Web, released by the Web's inventor himself...? Regard; Guntur Wiseno Putra Pada Minggu, 15 Desember 2019, S Moonesamy menulis: > Dear Guntur, > At 09:32 PM 14-12-2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra wrote: > >> Would it be inspiring...? >> > > I would not describe inaccurate information as inspiring. > > Regards, > S. Moonesamy > --0000000000006231c4059a950331 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear S. Moonsamy,

Apologize for days to respond your mes= sages...

"Innacurate information"...?=

Shall we take moments for such a "pedagogy o= f networks"...? -- as the information above was about the networks of = communications and informations, about the Internet and the Web, released b= y the Web's inventor himself...?



Regard;
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Minggu, = 15 Desember 2019, S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com> menulis:
De= ar Guntur,
At 09:32 PM 14-12-2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra wrote:
Would it be inspiring...?

I would not describe inaccurate information as inspiring.

Regards,
S. Moonesamy
--0000000000006231c4059a950331-- From nobody Wed Dec 25 23:03:47 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64CF712082D for ; Wed, 25 Dec 2019 23:03:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5n-eHMyI-B-x for ; Wed, 25 Dec 2019 23:03:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x336.google.com (mail-ot1-x336.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::336]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6D51312082A for ; Wed, 25 Dec 2019 23:03:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x336.google.com with SMTP id a15so31538813otf.1 for ; Wed, 25 Dec 2019 23:03:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=igGozaz53cFyYd9Gy5IJeZSEi4RcydxO3gLzMX4H4B8=; b=RCLeV4pDlI0eur0WmRsKhdbB66opJJjETG7OAGb3No9JarHEFmHy73rjti+1NHhzqU 4E2wDDunc0qUKmA7YIphIyrgNKbGoosXRhRKOe1GrMJOQd0jI5vHlFldG53HfDqStovw qtEZ4kkVs4kGY+M4G3bRTlbgfoIt44yrCYNRefhVh6qMuAtfx+BQngOepkO2Ojmrd7X7 icEfJ/uvEFvt1afxouHEI0KWa55Ip4MoQu5uX2S97QPc+zYn3/eipl8gvTJAUOlnHl/N ptpK1aK6haCKWfbcQIVDBN/uY/5bl/E3+nhDSKntfRDFPPDmCEhFF1sslRL4kjyud38T iKsw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=igGozaz53cFyYd9Gy5IJeZSEi4RcydxO3gLzMX4H4B8=; b=po1tmpvz56vOMrSPSsdM/IZWcrQJ/qRSAKyZeMmIAD2g4NirZEJNOMAEhTCwxKluT7 /ZthtGjo5BX6TJ4rTQ/UoIDK3+lhdBUxKRksEjDRYJ/IgtXxKvv5uv0+663KxyrZr09i Y/poslLoRvFrobolHPfz7epAM0tjOsIqbHOvPG8fKSGWYlHQMds/R50R3eeq19HLvARG Jpfpv0/ykS93mRntdw/Aho0zcqL421yHk1LKDact1OfhS749fRRGt7ibanLkmAnYw+XJ yTyiNdD00/fAV5G0fuBVoXypthEyLvIbv0xl65i17pfS7ZJYGT7ES/SjyaAvKGoBsA9E EQpw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVUuOoGJtdBD5jglAR9qg1u6lrICXhVwGOC7ehNGM6thQtZVqj6 dRJctX6MKvgqsS/ghn6biLaf4BCj//S04HyXhV8RXQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyOpdT+e13ey4168zUCCvBR48EpjmeUQPZFNritTVyvH0/YOfgzh98U2Wtd+x9uTtypP4INkknqW+TNrWX8UsI= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:65da:: with SMTP id z26mr40617363oth.197.1577343822766; Wed, 25 Dec 2019 23:03:42 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6830:1155:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Wed, 25 Dec 2019 23:03:42 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <157403781873.6404.6154827441040413193.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <01246A3C-31EC-4B7B-841D-F799EEFADCB8@mnot.net> <227662299.12784.1575991106819@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <429195684.13066.1575996064551@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <0C729385-1361-460C-9C16-E1BE1680A3E6@fugue.com> <1100636076.15285.1576072588087@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <4A034991-E5C8-4797-B6BF-9484BB2FA614@fugue.com> <31473650-0872-4EFE-A99C-E3DD4CDBC700@cisco.com> <326C92A0-5F29-411D-99DE-7C785CF73EE7@cisco.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20191214065306.11c9aa98@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20191215050931.0ba0c2c8@elandnews.com> From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 14:03:42 +0700 Message-ID: To: S Moonesamy Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003ea3b0059a95fa9b" Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-iab-for-the-users-01.txt X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 07:03:46 -0000 --0000000000003ea3b0059a95fa9b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear S. Moonsamy, Apologize for days to respond your messages... "Innacurate information"...? Shall we take moments for such a "pedagogy of networks"...? -- as the information above was about the networks of communications and informations, about the Internet and the Web, released by the Web's inventor himself Tim Berners-Lee...? To look at the two documents means a historical reading on the Internet's history, its evolvabilities: - The 1st RFC (1969) discussed about "tentative agreements reached and some of opened questions" on ARPA networks, its softwares (IMP and Host ones) --among which was a consideration on "users" (simple use and deep use). - "The Stack of Specifications" (2002/2003, a section of "Design Issues: Architectural and Philosophical Points") was a description, by the Web's inventor himself, about how the Internet and the Web work together (having an ethernet cables, sending an Internet packet, sending a TCP packet, introducing IANA: port registry numbers, sending an e-mail, publishing a web page, publishing a XML document, publishing a RDF document; then he identified hooks--identifiers and problem "when the chain does not connect").. of which he said that the Web users sign on languages (to name the interoperavility of computers, hardwares, operating systems, local language contexts, and software suppliers) when using the Internet. - "What are about our present and future..."? is supposedly part of such a historical reading... Regard; Guntur Wiseno Putra Pada Kamis, 26 Desember 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra menulis: > Dear S. Moonsamy, > > Apologize for days to respond your messages... > > "Innacurate information"...? > > Shall we take moments for such a "pedagogy of networks"...? -- as the > information above was about the networks of communications and > informations, about the Internet and the Web, released by the Web's > inventor himself...? > > > > Regard; > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > Pada Minggu, 15 Desember 2019, S Moonesamy menulis: > >> Dear Guntur, >> At 09:32 PM 14-12-2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra wrote: >> >>> Would it be inspiring...? >>> >> >> I would not describe inaccurate information as inspiring. >> >> Regards, >> S. Moonesamy >> > --0000000000003ea3b0059a95fa9b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear S. Moonsamy,

Apologize for days= to respond your messages...

"Innacurate i= nformation"...?

Shall we take moments for suc= h a "pedagogy of networks"...? -- as the information above was ab= out the networks of communications and informations, about the Internet and= the Web, released by the Web's inventor himself Tim Berners-Lee...?


To look at the two documents means a = historical reading on the Internet's history, its evolvabilities:
=

- The 1st RFC (1969) discussed about "tentative ag= reements reached and some of opened questions" on ARPA networks, its s= oftwares (IMP and Host ones) --among which was a consideration on "use= rs" (simple use and deep use).

- "The St= ack of Specifications" (2002/2003, a section of "Design Issues: A= rchitectural and Philosophical Points") was a description, by the Web&= #39;s inventor himself, about how the Internet and the Web work together (h= aving an ethernet cables, sending an Internet packet, sending a TCP packet,= introducing IANA: port registry numbers, sending an e-mail, publishing a w= eb page, publishing a XML document, publishing a RDF document; then he iden= tified hooks--identifiers and problem "when the chain does not connect= ").. of which he said that the Web users sign on languages (to name th= e interoperavility of computers, hardwares, operating systems, local langua= ge contexts, and software suppliers) when using the Internet.
- "What are about our present and future..."? is supp= osedly part of such a historical reading...


Regard;
Guntur Wiseno Putra
=


Pada Kamis, 26 Desember 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com&g= t; menulis:
Dear S. Moonsamy,

Apologize for days to respond your messages...

"Innacurate information"...?

Sha= ll we take moments for such a "pedagogy of networks"...? -- as th= e information above was about the networks of communications and informatio= ns, about the Internet and the Web, released by the Web's inventor hims= elf...?



Regard;
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Minggu, 15 Desember 2019, S Moonesamy= <sm+ietf@el= andsys.com> menulis:
Dear Guntur,<= br> At 09:32 PM 14-12-2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra wrote:
Would it be inspiring...?

I would not describe inaccurate information as inspiring.

Regards,
S. Moonesamy
--0000000000003ea3b0059a95fa9b-- From nobody Thu Dec 26 03:40:28 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F7DA12008C for ; Thu, 26 Dec 2019 03:40:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Wp3YaXCPYLpz for ; Thu, 26 Dec 2019 03:40:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x32a.google.com (mail-ot1-x32a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A0FD712000F for ; Thu, 26 Dec 2019 03:40:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x32a.google.com with SMTP id 59so32281829otp.12 for ; Thu, 26 Dec 2019 03:40:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=2ZiS88qlwBaqA1HkAbQtlsSMWCnt0DeJ5/mPGWoHJGA=; b=tRujmufFdxOdAg6TPe32fjRm8urdw28JB1CYAI5BEGwqTzg//NW5GWci5tfFdxj6X4 VZLiz/DjL8S8dvh3GGPJEPqBkdxjfF5h7bGUHibqgOF7V2qem0V5lklo8ITeZP+/m5Da RAFtsGcwgEZkKx5MllCRkBGwqhjSWQKmRkL0l1EFp4ae+cD6BghbIIjIBRds5czpp8Ib 29VLEpTwmW/EFx3V9Txzn93Pfx26GrNERqEMIC1AlyO6AR/7q0bKr3LxY/ykO7qSvJ5I 1AzZVHOEoHRGpJvret95slfOYBunMSIZZJu3bOQL2cNXkXHLeSKXfbrqWe0X4TFEdlDz /tAA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=2ZiS88qlwBaqA1HkAbQtlsSMWCnt0DeJ5/mPGWoHJGA=; b=LBxwBg9rz1vgA2gSBEictbP5NGHx7L9IBM+QezDH+TsxGODmRQ5Z2EwZPCs7+Y9ESq MFp8aGwtSulLvR5ugj9r94H0OQMvfMq4kz5yJ1Q3ZvuEPkcBIfG/Wi12sB+6QB0rNcdD EjyMSUoXj2rKOOEtoRNxzni/CSGA3t2CDP1L4RTTDgg0TdaRZ5eU/L1CgqUmpJAg061m lBUBFWaMUXEgVbJ2mLYMYzBanNETVjldG3xkEOWlTwKZ9zNRTJRoL3li2pdXjn12/Vnv jIE4WLiXTednjFWfVVI9oTlqzB2v3Ob+0kFMIcgKiewX2aTJICUtjey9BIaM2YRDgx1y acZg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWfuWWvPcNtVibMtEN5nJdcMWlttN9UYNHhNv2NPsbG/jRkdRvn nb0woS3aTBOBe4khLW3VSEe5Jnc9e2zdOkiIaU6bWw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwqeFEe98nHhqPzD9MW0rkC4fAl0kzLRcqJX9dkTitTBQRRv6oi0ktgwqw/wD95fGHy442ldaLvNImz30cxowU= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:65da:: with SMTP id z26mr41739038oth.197.1577360424010; Thu, 26 Dec 2019 03:40:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6830:1155:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 26 Dec 2019 03:40:23 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <157403781873.6404.6154827441040413193.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <01246A3C-31EC-4B7B-841D-F799EEFADCB8@mnot.net> <227662299.12784.1575991106819@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <429195684.13066.1575996064551@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <0C729385-1361-460C-9C16-E1BE1680A3E6@fugue.com> <1100636076.15285.1576072588087@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <4A034991-E5C8-4797-B6BF-9484BB2FA614@fugue.com> <31473650-0872-4EFE-A99C-E3DD4CDBC700@cisco.com> <326C92A0-5F29-411D-99DE-7C785CF73EE7@cisco.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20191214065306.11c9aa98@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20191215050931.0ba0c2c8@elandnews.com> From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 18:40:23 +0700 Message-ID: To: S Moonesamy Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c18874059a99d710" Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-iab-for-the-users-01.txt X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 11:40:27 -0000 --000000000000c18874059a99d710 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear architecture-discuss (S. Moonesamy, Mark, Elliot and others having concerns on the discussion on "End Users"), How do initiatives become such creative impulse of Information and Communication Technologies...? --network-based ones...? --as international institutions are part of...? Below are documents worked by international instutions may deserve attentions: FAO & ITU, 2016, "E-Agriculture Strategy Guide: Piloted in Asia-Pacific Countries", 222 pages, accessed December 26th 2019 (Hopefully there would no problem when accesing the document as I have just gotten it but fortunately I still have the copy.) I finded the document, published by the Food and Agriculture Organization and the International Telecommunication Union of the United Nations, concerned with "an emerging field focusing on the enhancement of agricultural and rural development through improved information and communication processes ... More specifically, e-agriculture involves the conceptualization, design, development, evaluation and application of innovative ways to use ICTs in the rural domain, with a primary focus on agriculture". In "Annex B" there were examples of ICT innovations in agriculture and rural development. A page on "E-Agriculture" by the FAO is http://www.fao.org/in-action/e-agriculture-strategy-guide/en/ Another is The ITU of the UN report =E2=80=9CFast-forward Progress: Leveraging tech to= achieve the global goals=E2=80=9D (https://www.itu.int/en/sustainable-world/Documen= ts/ Fast-forward_progress_report_414709%20FINAL.pdf) about insights in using ICTs to achieve the Sustainable Development Goals =E2=80=94 as the 2030 Age= nda for Sustainable Development recognizes the possibilities of global connectivity to spur humanity. There are supposedly others... Regard Guntur Wiseno Putra Pada Kamis, 26 Desember 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra menulis: > > Dear S. Moonsamy, > > Apologize for days to respond your messages... > > "Innacurate information"...? > > Shall we take moments for such a "pedagogy of networks"...? -- as the > information above was about the networks of communications and > informations, about the Internet and the Web, released by the Web's > inventor himself Tim Berners-Lee...? > > > To look at the two documents means a historical reading on the Internet's > history, its evolvabilities: > > - The 1st RFC (1969) discussed about "tentative agreements reached and > some of opened questions" on ARPA networks, its softwares (IMP and Host > ones) --among which was a consideration on "users" (simple use and deep > use). > > - "The Stack of Specifications" (2002/2003, a section of "Design Issues: > Architectural and Philosophical Points") was a description, by the Web's > inventor himself, about how the Internet and the Web work together (havin= g > an ethernet cables, sending an Internet packet, sending a TCP packet, > introducing IANA: port registry numbers, sending an e-mail, publishing a > web page, publishing a XML document, publishing a RDF document; then he > identified hooks--identifiers and problem "when the chain does not > connect").. of which he said that the Web users sign on languages (to nam= e > the interoperavility of computers, hardwares, operating systems, local > language contexts, and software suppliers) when using the Internet. > > - "What are about our present and future..."? is supposedly part of such = a > historical reading... > > > Regard; > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > > > Pada Kamis, 26 Desember 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > menulis: > >> Dear S. Moonsamy, >> >> Apologize for days to respond your messages... >> >> "Innacurate information"...? >> >> Shall we take moments for such a "pedagogy of networks"...? -- as the >> information above was about the networks of communications and >> informations, about the Internet and the Web, released by the Web's >> inventor himself...? >> >> >> >> Regard; >> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >> Pada Minggu, 15 Desember 2019, S Moonesamy >> menulis: >> >>> Dear Guntur, >>> At 09:32 PM 14-12-2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra wrote: >>> >>>> Would it be inspiring...? >>>> >>> >>> I would not describe inaccurate information as inspiring. >>> >>> Regards, >>> S. Moonesamy >>> >> --000000000000c18874059a99d710 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear architecture-discuss=C2=A0
(S. Moonesamy, Mark, Elliot and others = having concerns on the discussion on "End Users"),

=
How do initiatives become such creative impulse of Information a= nd Communication Technologies...? --network-based ones...? --as internation= al institutions are part of...?

Below are document= s worked by international instutions may deserve attentions:

=
FAO & ITU, 2016, "E-Agriculture Strategy Guide: Piloted= in Asia-Pacific Countries", 222 pages, accessed December 26th 2019=C2= =A0

(Hopefully there would no problem when accesin= g the document as I have just gotten it but fortunately I still have the co= py.)


I finded the document, publish= ed by the Food and Agriculture Organization and the International Telecommu= nication Union of the United Nations, concerned with "an emerging fiel= d focusing on the enhancement of agricultural and rural development through= improved information and communication processes

= ... =C2=A0 =C2=A0More specifically, e-agriculture involves the conceptualiz= ation, design, development, evaluation
and application of innovative wa= ys to use ICTs in the rural domain, with a primary focus on
agricultur= e".=C2=A0

In "Annex B" there were e= xamples of ICT innovations in agriculture and rural development.
=
A page on "E-Agriculture" by the FAO is=C2=A0



Another is=C2=A0

The ITU of the UN report =E2= =80=9CFast-forward Progress: Leveraging tech to achieve the global goals=E2= =80=9D (https://www.itu.int/en/sustai= nable-world/Documents/Fast-forward_progress_report_414709%20FINAL= .pdf) about insights in using ICTs to achieve the Sustainable Development = Goals =E2=80=94 as the 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development recognizes t= he possibilities of global connectivity to spur humanity.
=
There are supposedly others...


=
Regard
Guntur Wiseno Putra


Pada Kami= s, 26 Desember 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:

Dear S. Moonsamy,

Apologize for days to respond your messages...

"Innacurate information"...?

Shall we t= ake moments for such a "pedagogy of networks"...? -- as the infor= mation above was about the networks of communications and informations, abo= ut the Internet and the Web, released by the Web's inventor himself Tim= Berners-Lee...?


To look at the two= documents means a historical reading on the Internet's history, its ev= olvabilities:

- The 1st RFC (1969) discussed about= "tentative agreements reached and some of opened questions" on A= RPA networks, its softwares (IMP and Host ones) --among which was a conside= ration on "users" (simple use and deep use).

=
- "The Stack of Specifications" (2002/2003, a section of &qu= ot;Design Issues: Architectural and Philosophical Points") was a descr= iption, by the Web's inventor himself, about how the Internet and the W= eb work together (having an ethernet cables, sending an Internet packet, se= nding a TCP packet, introducing IANA: port registry numbers, sending an e-m= ail, publishing a web page, publishing a XML document, publishing a RDF doc= ument; then he identified hooks--identifiers and problem "when the cha= in does not connect").. of which he said that the Web users sign on la= nguages (to name the interoperavility of computers, hardwares, operating sy= stems, local language contexts, and software suppliers) when using the Inte= rnet.

- "What are about our present and futur= e..."? is supposedly part of such a historical reading...

Regard;
Guntur Wiseno Putra



Pada Kamis, 26 Desember 2019, Guntur W= iseno Putra <gsen= opu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear S. = Moonsamy,

Apologize for days to respond your messages...=

"Innacurate information"...?

Shall we take moments for such a "pedagogy of networ= ks"...? -- as the information above was about the networks of communic= ations and informations, about the Internet and the Web, released by the We= b's inventor himself...?



Regard;
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Minggu, 15 Desem= ber 2019, S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com> menulis:
Dear Guntur,
At 09:32 PM 14-12-2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra wrote:
Would it be inspiring...?

I would not describe inaccurate information as inspiring.

Regards,
S. Moonesamy
--000000000000c18874059a99d710-- From nobody Fri Dec 27 02:29:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB23E12001A for ; Fri, 27 Dec 2019 02:29:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ygq7gp5tHJMw for ; Fri, 27 Dec 2019 02:29:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx4.nic.fr (mx4.nic.fr [IPv6:2001:67c:2218:2::4:12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D268120013 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 2019 02:29:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx4.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx4.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 8ED202806E3; Fri, 27 Dec 2019 11:29:43 +0100 (CET) Received: by mx4.nic.fr (Postfix, from userid 500) id 88A6F2803A8; Fri, 27 Dec 2019 11:29:43 +0100 (CET) Received: from relay01.prive.nic.fr (relay01.prive.nic.fr [IPv6:2001:67c:2218:15::11]) by mx4.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80BAD2806E3; Fri, 27 Dec 2019 11:29:43 +0100 (CET) Received: from b12.nic.fr (b12.users.prive.nic.fr [10.10.86.133]) by relay01.prive.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C6C9663EBEC; Fri, 27 Dec 2019 11:29:43 +0100 (CET) Received: by b12.nic.fr (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 71C8A4033C; Fri, 27 Dec 2019 11:29:43 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2019 11:29:43 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Andrew Campling Cc: architecture-discuss@iab.org Message-ID: <20191227102943.GA14015@nic.fr> References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 10.2 X-Kernel: Linux 4.19.0-6-amd64 x86_64 X-Charlie: Je suis Charlie Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) X-Bogosity: No, tests=bogofilter, spamicity=0.000000, version=1.2.2 X-PMX-Version: 6.0.0.2142326, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2019.11.5.63017 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2019 10:29:48 -0000 On Tue, Dec 24, 2019 at 11:24:23AM +0000, Andrew Campling wrote a message of 38 lines which said: > I wonder whether a wider discussion needs to take place about > resilience and related topics like centralisation and consolidation. > To do this properly it really needs the involvement of a much more > diverse set of stakeholders and really needs to address both policy > and technical considerations as just doing the latter in isolation > will not really get to the core issues. I think that a debate led > by a body like the IGF but with input when appropriate on technical > considerations by the IAB/IETF would be a much more useful exercise > than something focused purely within the IAB/IETF. I think I disagree. Theoretically, you're right, resilience and robustness do not depend only on technical issues. (For instance, DNS filtering for politically-motivated censorship certainly makes the DNS more brittle and therefore decreases the Internet's robustness.) But, in practice, I'm very pessimistic about the possibility of a serious work on these subjects in another place. At least in the IAB/IETF, we can do concrete and productive work, even if limited in scope. Otherwise, I don't see a forum where efficient things could be done. Certainly not ICANN, and even less so IGF, which is a very good example of useless chat. [This is obviously related to the discussion about draft-iab-for-the-users.] From nobody Fri Dec 27 02:53:10 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6213F120048 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 2019 02:53:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=open-xchange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z2Sk9Eagc5Z5 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 2019 02:53:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx4.open-xchange.com (alcatraz.open-xchange.com [87.191.39.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 90D14120045 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 2019 02:53:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from open-xchange.com (imap.open-xchange.com [10.20.30.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx4.open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A96DB6A256; Fri, 27 Dec 2019 11:53:03 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=open-xchange.com; s=201705; t=1577443983; bh=JDNbcVuou4Eazb3yG34k0jIsnHJCI+QVxB4iaxj/zVM=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=SY2lm8sCmiPWiISjC5lXch33qK8tKZ91DpSAT1bKd/Dl7HWGVRVcNtdqLDdwxbcdM dwqDGuY99if1GNKCT+GyOsQ+6SliAjRPcDvBLy/mm3K+0N3sbZCvcckOEkYn3lW/L2 xMFglqLGw25CghVPlaebX7bfyS/Yy2Is8yiBw2/QvUwfSJDXy+n5a8brCAbZ44r/74 RpHrDRoPpum+l3b4J26S9Tx+y0a0SldccpaAFBrI8Rg+61gUg6WG1COpcGMpYvEAgo 5bLaugT8iw80bx8f3oAn2BjB8gN2klUIrxLCuN4L/LJRzhQPRYZMIMUqcnjjB/9Ql6 23zckq1vogYRA== Received: from appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com (appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com [10.20.28.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9B3B53C01C0; Fri, 27 Dec 2019 11:53:03 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2019 11:53:03 +0100 (CET) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Stephane Bortzmeyer , Andrew Campling Cc: architecture-discuss@iab.org Message-ID: <1829722692.7358.1577443983540@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <20191227102943.GA14015@nic.fr> References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227102943.GA14015@nic.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.3-Rev3 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2019 10:53:08 -0000 > Il 27/12/2019 11:29 Stephane Bortzmeyer ha scritto: > > > On Tue, Dec 24, 2019 at 11:24:23AM +0000, > Andrew Campling wrote > a message of 38 lines which said: > > > I wonder whether a wider discussion needs to take place about > > resilience and related topics like centralisation and consolidation. > > To do this properly it really needs the involvement of a much more > > diverse set of stakeholders and really needs to address both policy > > and technical considerations as just doing the latter in isolation > > will not really get to the core issues. I think that a debate led > > by a body like the IGF but with input when appropriate on technical > > considerations by the IAB/IETF would be a much more useful exercise > > than something focused purely within the IAB/IETF. > > I think I disagree. Theoretically, you're right, resilience and > robustness do not depend only on technical issues. (For instance, DNS > filtering for politically-motivated censorship certainly makes the DNS > more brittle and therefore decreases the Internet's robustness.) > > But, in practice, I'm very pessimistic about the possibility of a > serious work on these subjects in another place. At least in the > IAB/IETF, we can do concrete and productive work, even if limited in > scope. Otherwise, I don't see a forum where efficient things could be > done. Certainly not ICANN, and even less so IGF, which is a very good > example of useless chat. This is a complex and general issue, but an important one, so let me discuss it a bit. In practical terms, you are right: the IETF can effectively discuss an issue, come to a decision on it and release a document, with variable normative degree. ICANN can do the same, but much less "effectively" - it takes years for it to come to a decision, and not rarely it fails to achieve consensus. The IGF is even worse - it can only talk, but it cannot take decisions or document them (though they are now attempting to come up with "messages", as a collection of statements from session organizers, which IMHO is a terrible idea, because they do not reflect any kind of consensus process and so will be immediately challenged). However, the fact that a proper, effective, global policy-making body for the Internet does not exist will not make the need for it disappear. Simply, what is happening is that, in the absence of global consensus decisions on policy issues, the discussion and the action moves to the only level which is equipped with somewhat effective policy making and enforcement tools: national Parliaments and governments. This is a consequence of the Internet community failing to establish an effective global policy-making mechanism in parallel to the very effective global technical standardization mechanism, and on top of it, taking decisions and embracing policies that would never reach consensus in the broader circle of non-technical Internet stakeholders. Several people here seem to think that they can use their position of technology makers to force unwelcome policies onto about 200 countries in the world, but I doubt that in the long term this attempt will bode well for the Internet. I think we will just see more national/regional Internets with controlled interconnections among them, and/or a virtual "jurisdiction layer" applied over the network through global citizenship-based rules (e.g. GDPR). -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy From nobody Fri Dec 27 03:21:20 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52F18120045 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 2019 03:21:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m9CROjD273UI for ; Fri, 27 Dec 2019 03:21:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x330.google.com (mail-ot1-x330.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::330]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A8E8F120020 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 2019 03:21:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x330.google.com with SMTP id k8so18836127otl.13 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 2019 03:21:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=s/Z2oKvMN3ChvGEbYSBSFkJ/ir/L01cSOstMvvCVqJA=; b=VIe4zj0S7kidcJWrwD8/564SbFQ9NKBEpuOy7mooC/OKQ+n/I1oACm12SfHSh/HAxH u2qbIrDxV7fZdN+5uu7mP0PHkVutntpqFtMykCCg70bEWcIiBQZOf/cmm+WdY532/0rQ bTlbiUam/PX4uX3yue42H3p5a0VHtPBENkWx4fkOjpPk1TgKBb1icu1+6ys4sPAERMAG TYO3aegj+ooQeH4BGVrDUW8KpVWtjTZmWV8ju8q6sA2Lz5xUYlCjqMP845ZehiB39V4H pkyQuMLpwLbjlWqimTN8Mp6hx7wZ/wfrN/95kyj8hfF3hq94+CKyIAFF0WJLj6cupztH DIBA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=s/Z2oKvMN3ChvGEbYSBSFkJ/ir/L01cSOstMvvCVqJA=; b=QlqgBZ5sQWAgxzeKJqKYbWh2jLT+MBTjw9uDUCcXmpgV/3tBT9mQ3FoomOHhuKES7B TMk/hD+z9R5VFcO7BJhtK3lgfVQFfHWHTmDQco8qrJqGfw9MRH1GtvrdxO5hZ1cCPzWN kK7FugGhR3HLul2WT6n4vq84sPvpURRQrVU/MqPc5XU7XXg17IolfhZGZYdHtu93Vpl+ OGD2adIv/+XVj4QOC+/DKu2f1U6EHZTpjfxIIvrbzKJC/woeKhUWEauT/4ZpOXOyRgdr bJfBWoNjQo3hmmX8virPy0EL9DhhEYAV1uyFnWEx2u69ZOR9M7V0mhZsFn8d1xj6zThB hQhA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWjtGkkpgsrE9P+OeY4IWnvuIiKC6TzIT9tiG3eaVeFibuXxhpH ec/qdGDTj/IM34nrVPgTrGgsVGNUnfTrIljdI0K9Jw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxs19TlfmubsCnWFOOhrlCdhcj4QfWoM+IIAndHU7JlQH2bP2PkW/UyXIDvTMhq1NnajMubOdV+R6XUli9oh7A= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:198b:: with SMTP id k11mr26139268otk.295.1577445673957; Fri, 27 Dec 2019 03:21:13 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6830:1155:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Fri, 27 Dec 2019 03:21:13 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <157403781873.6404.6154827441040413193.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <01246A3C-31EC-4B7B-841D-F799EEFADCB8@mnot.net> <227662299.12784.1575991106819@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <429195684.13066.1575996064551@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <0C729385-1361-460C-9C16-E1BE1680A3E6@fugue.com> <1100636076.15285.1576072588087@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> <4A034991-E5C8-4797-B6BF-9484BB2FA614@fugue.com> <31473650-0872-4EFE-A99C-E3DD4CDBC700@cisco.com> <326C92A0-5F29-411D-99DE-7C785CF73EE7@cisco.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20191214065306.11c9aa98@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20191215050931.0ba0c2c8@elandnews.com> From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2019 18:21:13 +0700 Message-ID: To: S Moonesamy Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000c7d5b059aadb1cc" Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-iab-for-the-users-01.txt X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2019 11:21:17 -0000 --0000000000000c7d5b059aadb1cc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear architecture-discuss (S. Moonesamy, Mark, Elliot, Brian and Others having concerns on "End User"), Those readings I mentioned in the previous message (on "E-Agriculture" and "Leveraging Tech") remind me about another one, which was about "Information Society", I ever suggested as a reference to Brian Carpenter's & Bing Liu's "Limited Domains and Internet Protocols" with its architectural programme. This was sent to int-area@ietf.org (April 16th 2019) "As the Internet continues to grow and diversify, with a realistic prospect of tens of billions of nodes being connected directly and indirectly, there is a noticeable trend towards local requirements, behaviours and semantics". The first sentence of the Internet Draft "Limited Domains and Internet Protocols" reminds me about what was said in the International Telecommunication Union of the United Nations "Measuring Information Society 2018" that more than half of the world's population is now online. https://www.itu.int/en/ITU-D/Statistics/Pages/publications/misr2018.aspx ". It was a report pointing out current state of ICTs, ICTs skill for the future, ICTs revenue and investment trends, and ICTs price trends... Regards, Guntur Wiseno Putra Pada Kamis, 26 Desember 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra menulis: > Dear architecture-discuss > (S. Moonesamy, Mark, Elliot and others having concerns on the discussion > on "End Users"), > > How do initiatives become such creative impulse of Information and > Communication Technologies...? --network-based ones...? --as internationa= l > institutions are part of...? > > Below are documents worked by international instutions may deserve > attentions: > > FAO & ITU, 2016, "E-Agriculture Strategy Guide: Piloted in Asia-Pacific > Countries", 222 pages, accessed December 26th 2019 > > (Hopefully there would no problem when accesing the document as I have > just gotten it but fortunately I still have the copy.) > > > I finded the document, published by the Food and Agriculture Organization > and the International Telecommunication Union of the United Nations, > concerned with "an emerging field focusing on the enhancement of > agricultural and rural development through improved information and > communication processes > > ... More specifically, e-agriculture involves the conceptualization, > design, development, evaluation > and application of innovative ways to use ICTs in the rural domain, with = a > primary focus on > agriculture". > > In "Annex B" there were examples of ICT innovations in agriculture and > rural development. > > A page on "E-Agriculture" by the FAO is > > http://www.fao.org/in-action/e-agriculture-strategy-guide/en/ > > > Another is > > The ITU of the UN report =E2=80=9CFast-forward Progress: Leveraging tech = to > achieve the global goals=E2=80=9D (https://www.itu.int/en/sustai > nable-world/Documents/Fast-forward_progress_report_414709%20FINAL.pdf) > about insights in using ICTs to achieve the Sustainable Development Goals= =E2=80=94 > as the 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development recognizes the possibiliti= es > of global connectivity to spur humanity. > > There are supposedly others... > > > Regard > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > > Pada Kamis, 26 Desember 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra > menulis: > >> >> Dear S. Moonsamy, >> >> Apologize for days to respond your messages... >> >> "Innacurate information"...? >> >> Shall we take moments for such a "pedagogy of networks"...? -- as the >> information above was about the networks of communications and >> informations, about the Internet and the Web, released by the Web's >> inventor himself Tim Berners-Lee...? >> >> >> To look at the two documents means a historical reading on the Internet'= s >> history, its evolvabilities: >> >> - The 1st RFC (1969) discussed about "tentative agreements reached and >> some of opened questions" on ARPA networks, its softwares (IMP and Host >> ones) --among which was a consideration on "users" (simple use and deep >> use). >> >> - "The Stack of Specifications" (2002/2003, a section of "Design Issues: >> Architectural and Philosophical Points") was a description, by the Web's >> inventor himself, about how the Internet and the Web work together (havi= ng >> an ethernet cables, sending an Internet packet, sending a TCP packet, >> introducing IANA: port registry numbers, sending an e-mail, publishing a >> web page, publishing a XML document, publishing a RDF document; then he >> identified hooks--identifiers and problem "when the chain does not >> connect").. of which he said that the Web users sign on languages (to na= me >> the interoperavility of computers, hardwares, operating systems, local >> language contexts, and software suppliers) when using the Internet. >> >> - "What are about our present and future..."? is supposedly part of such >> a historical reading... >> >> >> Regard; >> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >> >> >> Pada Kamis, 26 Desember 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >> menulis: >> >>> Dear S. Moonsamy, >>> >>> Apologize for days to respond your messages... >>> >>> "Innacurate information"...? >>> >>> Shall we take moments for such a "pedagogy of networks"...? -- as the >>> information above was about the networks of communications and >>> informations, about the Internet and the Web, released by the Web's >>> inventor himself...? >>> >>> >>> >>> Regard; >>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> >>> Pada Minggu, 15 Desember 2019, S Moonesamy >>> menulis: >>> >>>> Dear Guntur, >>>> At 09:32 PM 14-12-2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra wrote: >>>> >>>>> Would it be inspiring...? >>>>> >>>> >>>> I would not describe inaccurate information as inspiring. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> S. Moonesamy >>>> >>> --0000000000000c7d5b059aadb1cc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear architecture-discuss=C2=A0
(S. Moonesamy, Mark, Elliot, Brian and = Others having concerns on "End User"),


Those readings I mentioned in the previous message (on "E-Agri= culture" and "Leveraging Tech") remind me about another one,= which was about "Information Society", I ever suggested as a ref= erence to Brian Carpenter's & Bing Liu's "Limited Domains = and Internet Protocols" with its architectural programme.
This was sent to int-area@ietf.org (April 16th 2019)
 "As the Internet continues to grow and d=
iversify, with a realistic
   prospect of tens of billions of nodes being connected directly and
   indirectly, there is a noticeable trend towards local requirements,
   behaviours and semantics".

Th= e first sentence of the Internet Draft "Limited Domains and Internet P= rotocols" reminds me about what was said in the International Telecomm= unication Union of the United Nations "Measuring Information Society 2= 018" that more than half of the world's population is now online.<= /div>

https://www.itu.int/e= n/ITU-D/Statistics/Pag= es/publications/misr2018.a= spx=C2=A0

".

It was a report pointing out current state of ICTs, ICTs = skill for the future, ICTs revenue and investment trends, and ICTs price tr= ends...


Regards,
Guntur W= iseno Putra

Pada Kamis, 26 Desember 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com&= gt; menulis:
Dear architecture-discuss=C2= =A0
(S. Moonesamy, Mark, Elliot and others having concerns on the discu= ssion on "End Users"),

How do initiative= s become such creative impulse of Information and Communication Technologie= s...? --network-based ones...? --as international institutions are part of.= ..?

Below are documents worked by international in= stutions may deserve attentions:

FAO & ITU, 20= 16, "E-Agriculture Strategy Guide: Piloted in Asia-Pacific Countries&q= uot;, 222 pages, accessed December 26th 2019=C2=A0

(Hopefully there would no problem when accesing the document as I have jus= t gotten it but fortunately I still have the copy.)


I finded the document, published by the Food and Agricultu= re Organization and the International Telecommunication Union of the United= Nations, concerned with "an emerging field focusing on the enhancemen= t of agricultural and rural development through improved information and co= mmunication processes

... =C2=A0 =C2=A0More specif= ically, e-agriculture involves the conceptualization, design, development, = evaluation
and application of innovative ways to use ICTs in the rural = domain, with a primary focus on
agriculture".=C2=A0
In "Annex B" there were examples of ICT innovations i= n agriculture and rural development.

A page on &qu= ot;E-Agriculture" by the FAO is=C2=A0



Another is=C2=A0

The ITU of the UN report =E2=80=9CFast-forward Progres= s: Leveraging tech to achieve the global goals=E2=80=9D (https://www.itu.int/en/sustainable-world/Documents/Fast-= forward_progress_report_414709%20FINAL.pdf) about insights in us= ing ICTs to achieve the Sustainable Development Goals =E2=80=94 as the 2030= Agenda for Sustainable Development recognizes the possibilities of global = connectivity to spur humanity.

There are su= pposedly others...


Regard
Guntur Wiseno Putra


Pada Kamis, 26 Desember 2019, Guntur= Wiseno Putra <gs= enopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear S. Moonsamy,

Apologize for days to resp= ond your messages...

"Innacurate informati= on"...?

Shall we take moments for such a &quo= t;pedagogy of networks"...? -- as the information above was about the = networks of communications and informations, about the Internet and the Web= , released by the Web's inventor himself Tim Berners-Lee...?
=

To look at the two documents means a historic= al reading on the Internet's history, its evolvabilities:
- The 1st RFC (1969) discussed about "tentative agreements= reached and some of opened questions" on ARPA networks, its softwares= (IMP and Host ones) --among which was a consideration on "users"= (simple use and deep use).

- "The Stack of S= pecifications" (2002/2003, a section of "Design Issues: Architect= ural and Philosophical Points") was a description, by the Web's in= ventor himself, about how the Internet and the Web work together (having an= ethernet cables, sending an Internet packet, sending a TCP packet, introdu= cing IANA: port registry numbers, sending an e-mail, publishing a web page,= publishing a XML document, publishing a RDF document; then he identified h= ooks--identifiers and problem "when the chain does not connect").= . of which he said that the Web users sign on languages (to name the intero= peravility of computers, hardwares, operating systems, local language conte= xts, and software suppliers) when using the Internet.

<= div>- "What are about our present and future..."? is supposedly p= art of such a historical reading...


Regard;
Guntur Wiseno Putra



Pada Kamis, 26 Desember 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menul= is:
Dear S. Moonsamy,

= Apologize for days to respond your messages...

= "Innacurate information"...?

Shall we ta= ke moments for such a "pedagogy of networks"...? -- as the inform= ation above was about the networks of communications and informations, abou= t the Internet and the Web, released by the Web's inventor himself...?<= /div>



Regard;
Gu= ntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Minggu, 15 Desember 2019, S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.c= om> menulis:
Dear Guntur,
At 09:32 PM 14-12-2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra wrote:
Would it be inspiring...?

I would not describe inaccurate information as inspiring.

Regards,
S. Moonesamy
--0000000000000c7d5b059aadb1cc-- From nobody Fri Dec 27 05:44:25 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68D3A12006E for ; Fri, 27 Dec 2019 05:44:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m5YKEHdD65P3 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 2019 05:44:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx4.nic.fr (mx4.nic.fr [IPv6:2001:67c:2218:2::4:12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E141F120046 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 2019 05:44:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx4.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx4.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 333CE2806D1; Fri, 27 Dec 2019 14:44:19 +0100 (CET) Received: by mx4.nic.fr (Postfix, from userid 500) id 2CE0E28071F; Fri, 27 Dec 2019 14:44:19 +0100 (CET) Received: from relay01.prive.nic.fr (relay01.prive.nic.fr [IPv6:2001:67c:2218:15::11]) by mx4.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 253822806D1; Fri, 27 Dec 2019 14:44:19 +0100 (CET) Received: from b12.nic.fr (b12.users.prive.nic.fr [10.10.86.133]) by relay01.prive.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21D266A9F3A0; Fri, 27 Dec 2019 14:44:19 +0100 (CET) Received: by b12.nic.fr (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1732E4033C; Fri, 27 Dec 2019 14:44:19 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2019 14:44:19 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Vittorio Bertola Cc: architecture-discuss@iab.org Message-ID: <20191227134419.GA19644@nic.fr> References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227102943.GA14015@nic.fr> <1829722692.7358.1577443983540@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1829722692.7358.1577443983540@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 10.2 X-Kernel: Linux 4.19.0-6-amd64 x86_64 X-Charlie: Je suis Charlie Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) X-Bogosity: No, tests=bogofilter, spamicity=0.073919, version=1.2.2 X-PMX-Version: 6.0.0.2142326, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2019.11.5.63017 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2019 13:44:24 -0000 On Fri, Dec 27, 2019 at 11:53:03AM +0100, Vittorio Bertola wrote a message of 44 lines which said: > However, the fact that a proper, effective, global policy-making > body for the Internet does not exist will not make the need for it > disappear. Yes, it would be cool if it existed. But it does not, so we have to do without it (instead of wasting time arguing that such a body would help). > This is a consequence of the Internet community failing to establish > an effective global policy-making mechanism in parallel to the very > effective global technical standardization mechanism, One of the reasons for this situation is that there is no such thing as an "Internet community". People using the Internet, and even the subset of people contributing directly to the IETF, are not a political party, a religion, a cult or a tribe. They are very diverse, and, for instance, have very different political opinions (some work on better censorship tools and some on better anti-censorship tools...) > and on top of it, taking decisions and embracing policies that would > never reach consensus in the broader circle of non-technical > Internet stakeholders. Nothing can "reach consensus in the broader circle of non-technical Internet stakeholders", they are too diverse. From nobody Fri Dec 27 05:57:25 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 137F212006E for ; Fri, 27 Dec 2019 05:57:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=open-xchange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x0PhOWXlEc-b for ; Fri, 27 Dec 2019 05:57:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx4.open-xchange.com (alcatraz.open-xchange.com [87.191.39.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6540C120046 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 2019 05:57:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from open-xchange.com (imap.open-xchange.com [10.20.30.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx4.open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B3C046A256; Fri, 27 Dec 2019 14:57:19 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=open-xchange.com; s=201705; t=1577455039; bh=5sBNtRy/e/yjD46CtKUVOlwxUeks+7QCHwjyqepVtn8=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=9sMmX5788QBB0GG1V/L59E4clkK/c6OHuemtORpG3rZJu9LL43yaMskyusWzlEIM3 7ph5+4yiJPfhSix/8oQLjPjk0HQhObz4DobbNZdz8p6rp9u/t24nu4mHDCcnaCDxrT AJmHDeWfeEXLVPQINBakNQKLJdTuQPcDvv84bUHNEtff6RMnYTF+sooJvVskYKmUYp Kzn/3kg+QS5fkpVyeTPolCAdN+A9FaMd/7Ai3dGzt+Szh0tao3xYIcSL11HfikutpO MNh8b8U3JrmUm+4Xno0Hbjtj8lcevrwAtXeneBE6zfEZQJzsKQm9sEZWkfpPrLUm9h yNmOovHNR9yvw== Received: from appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com (appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com [10.20.28.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 97A873C01C0; Fri, 27 Dec 2019 14:57:19 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2019 14:57:18 +0100 (CET) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Stephane Bortzmeyer Cc: architecture-discuss@iab.org Message-ID: <39215061.7471.1577455039503@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <20191227134419.GA19644@nic.fr> References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227102943.GA14015@nic.fr> <1829722692.7358.1577443983540@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227134419.GA19644@nic.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.3-Rev3 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2019 13:57:24 -0000 > Il 27/12/2019 14:44 Stephane Bortzmeyer ha scritto: > > One of the reasons for this situation is that there is no such thing > as an "Internet community". People using the Internet, and even the > subset of people contributing directly to the IETF, are not a > political party, a religion, a cult or a tribe. They are very diverse, > and, for instance, have very different political opinions (some work > on better censorship tools and some on better anti-censorship > tools...) Can you please stop saying that some people here are working to increase political censorship? With the same but symmetric approach, one could say that people that promote DoH towards foreign resolvers want to facilitate online crime and people who oppose this deployment want to fight it. Neither of the two is generally true, and this is not a helpful way to frame the discussion. -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy From nobody Fri Dec 27 11:28:39 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CA8C120909 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 2019 11:28:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gPtoOUGPzG9t for ; Fri, 27 Dec 2019 11:28:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x636.google.com (mail-pl1-x636.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::636]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BD5DD1208E0 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 2019 11:28:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x636.google.com with SMTP id p9so12075754plk.9 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 2019 11:28:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=puESCMM65dRzmfknyiMcZqDHU3wuLcz5UYrpYcHaahM=; b=GX2WNx/5sQATxFwzCQ7bDYoN8K7eHTWxcQCe1Q22uVGVr86yRX+ZAL9+nScQaZathB NRBzfBhMf/dc/DKQRA0Nu5pZF/0Jy86+K0ob4/25ro0ClKdupv6A8cVlR9RNkd27ikm0 cFUrilXuREFUEZr/tDks7dKRqTVLngBB1FTpkSxHX+ycyjCSH2NMKJWEXfEoqv0KZmXl fHW4RTMocRY4xD08itIXGmHLXdHqPI8fU9VbnvLIHcYNvDs12NdHKgam0UjhgmAefN/w gUOnJEDh5pVQSJJzq4sHGVGECdi7DVb80DhjiKJ1+C3zDLhepxCkfn9cgbLgMynreWmV YKJA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=puESCMM65dRzmfknyiMcZqDHU3wuLcz5UYrpYcHaahM=; b=epz1G+xY+OzVpJilB0qTBJOEtsWAIjHxGnI2sY8DA7SnNySIiV6WcfRt5YsdJakcyg 0b7Hor/IlKOzdW40M6/triLvvJkjkw+vFzEjnYpmv/e0D1ys/cjriprbz47Kj4lV1RET sdn4nYd9L1CTdx92FYtEWs2YXQp2Ivq7fF/b1nxCl1XgOYCZlDRt22P76KWkiReNeXvI NyQoC9CcRq7SjdCttC2YRmhxDZY0dzwJindeQb5UxUCRXxl6Z+fikGnZg4AkN2ldcURQ uw/yoUs+Kc/FG1NEilvRBuSWZSjFoZ0L92aEas4DoGCNvC2wFnwxB0moT2VDfsVmY1o3 /Qpw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV251RcDLyH6lg1YGVOAc/Mgd+KGgk2pXysGBe6vfoWrywRYNTG tmQLfXQqFiiiCj3MssQkcEhdsS8P X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx/D1iof66TwQedCocojjNkbxfEvHkRhOUA4DfW1SNvFGdsM0cOeZfFNHmTzXM0Ap9ivDcf0w== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:9695:: with SMTP id n21mr32484004plp.192.1577474914540; Fri, 27 Dec 2019 11:28:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.30] (228.147.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.147.228]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i9sm41071685pfk.24.2019.12.27.11.28.31 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 27 Dec 2019 11:28:33 -0800 (PST) To: Stephane Bortzmeyer , Andrew Campling Cc: architecture-discuss@iab.org References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227102943.GA14015@nic.fr> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <646cd584-60d1-a578-36e9-d4eca5d9ec93@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 08:28:29 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20191227102943.GA14015@nic.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2019 19:28:38 -0000 On 27-Dec-19 23:29, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > On Tue, Dec 24, 2019 at 11:24:23AM +0000, > Andrew Campling wrote > a message of 38 lines which said: > >> I wonder whether a wider discussion needs to take place about >> resilience and related topics like centralisation and consolidation. >> To do this properly it really needs the involvement of a much more >> diverse set of stakeholders and really needs to address both policy >> and technical considerations as just doing the latter in isolation >> will not really get to the core issues. I think that a debate led >> by a body like the IGF but with input when appropriate on technical >> considerations by the IAB/IETF would be a much more useful exercise >> than something focused purely within the IAB/IETF. > > I think I disagree. Theoretically, you're right, resilience and > robustness do not depend only on technical issues. (For instance, DNS > filtering for politically-motivated censorship certainly makes the DNS > more brittle and therefore decreases the Internet's robustness.) > > But, in practice, I'm very pessimistic about the possibility of a > serious work on these subjects in another place. At least in the > IAB/IETF, we can do concrete and productive work, even if limited in > scope. I'd go a bit further. IMHO, the IETF (+IAB) does best by explicitly excluding political, economic or sociological issues from our reasoning *even if they seem relevant*. RFC 1984, 2804 and 7258 are good examples of documents that stick to technical arguments in the face of a great temptation to "go political". For the resilience (or robustness) discussion, we should do the same. For example, fragmentation of the DNS name space is damage, regardless of the cause. Making the name space intrinsically self-healing would therefore be a good thing. > Otherwise, I don't see a forum where efficient things could be > done. Certainly not ICANN, and even less so IGF, which is a very good > example of useless chat. > > [This is obviously related to the discussion about > draft-iab-for-the-users.] I agree. I think it is absolutely correct to state that the technical end goal is better services for users, rather than convenience for operators, but absolutely unnnecessary to rhapsodise about the the social good. (This has nothing to do with my opinions about the social good. It's about how the IETF, as a trans-national group, can produce effective documents.) Brian From nobody Fri Dec 27 13:28:01 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C2B61200E0 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 2019 13:27:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=elandsys.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SR9S8P_ZxaTV for ; Fri, 27 Dec 2019 13:27:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.elandsys.com (mx.elandsys.com [162.213.2.210]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B54C91200DB for ; Fri, 27 Dec 2019 13:27:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from DESKTOP-K6V9C2L.elandsys.com ([102.116.115.142]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.15.2/8.14.5) with ESMTPSA id xBRLRebL007463 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 27 Dec 2019 13:27:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1577482073; x=1577568473; i=@elandsys.com; bh=ay5PjzcHbMUIljIM1SM9WTTjYeH7uO5PI1JXFJ2Sufg=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=qjm+XNkRme63jnZmhGMQR2BHM6BwqMEsIZb4EJhjRTHXZyZK8+FZUdeFRF0vuBW05 zVz4IL3Ts6uQHiq90sTNGCFMGfZOWBHpvBVwIunOOwSeqpCgDjImKnzfhTl3l0uJwr cLx9gtTDlPjEw23jDc4/orbxIMDk/cwS6MdcTmR0= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20191227130815.120fc690@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2019 13:26:41 -0800 To: Andrew Campling , architecture-discuss@iab.org From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2019 21:28:00 -0000 Hi Andrew, At 03:24 AM 24-12-2019, Andrew Campling wrote: >Noting the above exchange, I wonder whether a wider discussion needs >to take place about resilience and related topics like >centralisation and consolidation. To do this properly it really >needs the involvement of a much more diverse set of stakeholders and >really needs to address both policy and technical considerations as >just doing the latter in isolation will not really get to the core >issues. I think that a debate led by a body like the IGF but with >input when appropriate on technical considerations by the IAB/IETF >would be a much more useful exercise than something focused purely >within the IAB/IETF. Does the IAB/IETF have a good record of addressing policy considerations? It would be good to consider the objective(s) before getting into who needs to be involved. Would writing an IAB statement help to attain the objective? Regards, S. Moonesamy From nobody Sat Dec 28 10:33:04 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60BEE12018D for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 10:33:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=netorgft5189650.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9racTfeTM64v for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 10:32:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from GBR01-CWL-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr110046.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.11.46]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3800912010C for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 10:32:58 -0800 (PST) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=QSCL4JhhhUeuDWZJUuOZgQgVXwV4hcTVJnVheIHgm1T/Zg/2hzc6I+lub2nieSKYjwillTfZPoy7TKsrlEbx/QFrCtwVt4JvLuGicmMRQfL/FdtuK3j176pZjVASXOHXr8dfn7/b003Df82auv2ZihG94jkiKZ7hBEkdp8DBJhHNSEz9eSWna5Nops14fHj7siZQ1KT4sT0vT6d3oR+Ce2suXHJgbC5OQilWy3+aVcHw8qn7YdK7IBOMu/IwzY1Y+eJDhO8FuDchQA0po2VKlBUZXX1I+xxZWHCTQ3X608lU+x7lBovkpznRdsRmOXf/Z+994gdrny2oIQ/loO9ITw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=kmXt9oePDHl68v8LWoD4I/N2QFnMyFXzTD8778z1JqM=; b=czb8P7A7RgQE1jjvlZ8DBCYsC8WylV3JOt0zjPQAwGQl10jFXHkjNZmW7Oaez6L9ZhrNCkx5ed3Ejk1zTv6UFz9tr6MaP90jFGpBh0XkIn8CCai34NvlRr74LaPc9TqXt8fqhGaJ7MkEPGAQJgGBO5phRFORoG3pYrvNULZ5vLo7k/EOtjzWIatGCIj78jK3yabXi3JCKEYs5SHDVcKZM5i6iiaLQylUE4XqpyIwUiV0xPVTs4BKGsF35aM3o0eurSxLyko6J+UggzEyy6WqPf/YelQY2SDpNBRwS/UNOSSHscJbhiwpHHOLIS329/pgyPspLw95CxX+6dcqKsUs4g== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=419.consulting; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=419.consulting; dkim=pass header.d=419.consulting; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=NETORGFT5189650.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-NETORGFT5189650-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=kmXt9oePDHl68v8LWoD4I/N2QFnMyFXzTD8778z1JqM=; b=qAtdTWtT7H1HIzlD0XtT2FY+4DcaET0LLt0jSgDEw3wei+7ifatN+go9ugzippmIOjt2vcRcjEuk36FS3xyErj15hjV+waKu3LZo2jrWJPpYINmcMCOxzBx9gj1byw6KK9NAlmzrZhf80cGL9jo3FdmAj4CXUDLfEPt/E7Cw3pw= Received: from LO2P265MB0573.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (10.166.85.15) by LO2P265MB0591.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (10.166.105.16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2581.11; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 18:32:54 +0000 Received: from LO2P265MB0573.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::7d46:b916:32e9:1d73]) by LO2P265MB0573.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::7d46:b916:32e9:1d73%7]) with mapi id 15.20.2581.007; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 18:32:54 +0000 From: Andrew Campling To: Brian E Carpenter , Stephane Bortzmeyer , Vittorio Bertola CC: "architecture-discuss@iab.org" Thread-Topic: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience Thread-Index: AQHVukMDSAF2l/t4vk24jZm59sMjO6fJIn0QgASqF4CAAJaIgIABgskg Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 18:32:54 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227102943.GA14015@nic.fr> <646cd584-60d1-a578-36e9-d4eca5d9ec93@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <646cd584-60d1-a578-36e9-d4eca5d9ec93@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=andrew.campling@419.consulting; x-originating-ip: [86.144.96.18] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: adee13b9-e8c8-4de7-7c3c-08d78bc45ab5 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: LO2P265MB0591: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-forefront-prvs: 02652BD10A x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(366004)(396003)(39830400003)(376002)(346002)(136003)(199004)(189003)(9686003)(966005)(2906002)(55016002)(44832011)(86362001)(110136005)(33656002)(4326008)(66476007)(508600001)(6506007)(76116006)(66446008)(64756008)(26005)(186003)(66946007)(5660300002)(8676002)(52536014)(81166006)(30864003)(8936002)(66556008)(81156014)(316002)(7696005)(66574012)(71200400001)(46492004); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:LO2P265MB0591; H:LO2P265MB0573.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: 419.consulting does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_LO2P265MB0573D63DA3AB1BC61CB53693C2250LO2P265MB0573GBRP_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: 419.consulting X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: adee13b9-e8c8-4de7-7c3c-08d78bc45ab5 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 28 Dec 2019 18:32:54.7528 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 9c2ced3e-7522-4755-87dc-f983abc66ec3 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: nH/FdLdnLvZq+EVqTmJIfvNNtAH1EBai0vh+wVbPIwimKCExoU+2jzvfIUU5XwL7hWMJa3O2PW15ZswXXKua0vG+j1uRMmYOiim+zLws2j4= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: LO2P265MB0591 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 18:33:02 -0000 --_000_LO2P265MB0573D63DA3AB1BC61CB53693C2250LO2P265MB0573GBRP_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 T24gRnJpLCBEZWMgMjcsIDIwMTkgYXQgMTA6NTMsICBWaXR0b3JpbyBCZXJ0b2xhIDx2aXR0b3Jp by5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb208bWFpbHRvOnZpdHRvcmlvLmJlcnRvbGFAb3Blbi14 Y2hhbmdlLmNvbT4+IHdyb3RlOg0KDQo+IEluIHByYWN0aWNhbCB0ZXJtcywgeW91IGFyZSByaWdo dDogdGhlIElFVEYgY2FuIGVmZmVjdGl2ZWx5IGRpc2N1c3MgYW4gaXNzdWUsIGNvbWUgdG8gYSBk ZWNpc2lvbiBvbiBpdA0KPiBhbmQgcmVsZWFzZSBhIGRvY3VtZW50LCB3aXRoIHZhcmlhYmxlIG5v cm1hdGl2ZSBkZWdyZWUuIElDQU5OIGNhbiBkbyB0aGUgc2FtZSwgYnV0IG11Y2ggbGVzcw0KPiAi ZWZmZWN0aXZlbHkiIC0gaXQgdGFrZXMgeWVhcnMgZm9yIGl0IHRvIGNvbWUgdG8gYSBkZWNpc2lv biwgYW5kIG5vdCByYXJlbHkgaXQgZmFpbHMgdG8gYWNoaWV2ZSBjb25zZW5zdXMuDQo+IFRoZSBJ R0YgaXMgZXZlbiB3b3JzZSAtIGl0IGNhbiBvbmx5IHRhbGssIGJ1dCBpdCBjYW5ub3QgdGFrZSBk ZWNpc2lvbnMgb3IgZG9jdW1lbnQgdGhlbSAodGhvdWdoIHRoZXkNCj4gYXJlIG5vdyBhdHRlbXB0 aW5nIHRvIGNvbWUgdXAgd2l0aCAibWVzc2FnZXMiLCBhcyBhIGNvbGxlY3Rpb24gb2Ygc3RhdGVt ZW50cyBmcm9tIHNlc3Npb24NCj4gb3JnYW5pemVycywgd2hpY2ggSU1ITyBpcyBhIHRlcnJpYmxl IGlkZWEsIGJlY2F1c2UgdGhleSBkbyBub3QgcmVmbGVjdCBhbnkga2luZCBvZiBjb25zZW5zdXMg cHJvY2Vzcw0KPiBhbmQgc28gd2lsbCBiZSBpbW1lZGlhdGVseSBjaGFsbGVuZ2VkKS4NCg0KPiBI b3dldmVyLCB0aGUgZmFjdCB0aGF0IGEgcHJvcGVyLCBlZmZlY3RpdmUsIGdsb2JhbCBwb2xpY3kt bWFraW5nIGJvZHkgZm9yIHRoZSBJbnRlcm5ldCBkb2VzIG5vdCBleGlzdA0KPiB3aWxsIG5vdCBt YWtlIHRoZSBuZWVkIGZvciBpdCBkaXNhcHBlYXIuIFNpbXBseSwgd2hhdCBpcyBoYXBwZW5pbmcg aXMgdGhhdCwgaW4gdGhlIGFic2VuY2Ugb2YgZ2xvYmFsDQo+IGNvbnNlbnN1cyBkZWNpc2lvbnMg b24gcG9saWN5IGlzc3VlcywgdGhlIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gYW5kIHRoZSBhY3Rpb24gbW92ZXMgdG8g dGhlIG9ubHkgbGV2ZWwgd2hpY2ggaXMNCj4gZXF1aXBwZWQgd2l0aCBzb21ld2hhdCBlZmZlY3Rp dmUgcG9saWN5IG1ha2luZyBhbmQgZW5mb3JjZW1lbnQgdG9vbHM6IG5hdGlvbmFsIFBhcmxpYW1l bnRzIGFuZA0KPiBnb3Zlcm5tZW50cy4NCg0KVGhlIGxhY2sgb2YgYW4gZWZmZWN0aXZlLCBnbG9i YWwgcG9saWN5IG1ha2luZyBib2R5IGZvciB0aGUgaW50ZXJuZXQgaXMgYSBwcm9ibGVtIHRoYXQg bmVlZHMgdG8gYmUgYWRkcmVzc2VkIGFzIGl0IGlzIGEgc2lnbmlmaWNhbnQgZ2FwLiAgSW4gaXRz IGFic2VuY2UsIGJvZGllcyBsaWtlIHRoZSBJRVRGLCBJQ0FOTiBhbmQgb3RoZXJzIG1ha2Ugb3Ig YXNzdW1lIHBvbGljeSBkZWNpc2lvbnMgaW4gYSBzdWItb3B0aW1hbCB3YXkgd2hlbiBpbiByZWFs aXR5IHRoZXkgd291bGQgYWxsIGJlbmVmaXQgZnJvbSBhIHByb3Blcmx5IGNvbnN0aXR1dGVkIGFu ZCBxdWFsaWZpZWQgYm9keSBmdWxmaWxsaW5nIHRoaXMgZnVuY3Rpb24uICBUaGVyZWZvcmUsIGVp dGhlciBhY3Rpb24gbmVlZHMgdG8gYmUgdGFrZW4gc28gdGhhdCB0aGUgSUdGIGNhbiBmdWxmaWwg dGhpcyByb2xlIGVmZmVjdGl2ZWx5IG9yIGEgbmV3IGJvZHkgbmVlZHMgdG8gYmUgY29uc3RpdHV0 ZWQgdG8gZG8gc28uDQoNCj4gVGhpcyBpcyBhIGNvbnNlcXVlbmNlIG9mIHRoZSBJbnRlcm5ldCBj b21tdW5pdHkgZmFpbGluZyB0byBlc3RhYmxpc2ggYW4gZWZmZWN0aXZlIGdsb2JhbCBwb2xpY3kt bWFraW5nDQo+IG1lY2hhbmlzbSBpbiBwYXJhbGxlbCB0byB0aGUgdmVyeSBlZmZlY3RpdmUgZ2xv YmFsIHRlY2huaWNhbCBzdGFuZGFyZGl6YXRpb24gbWVjaGFuaXNtLCBhbmQgb24gdG9wIG9mDQo+ IGl0LCB0YWtpbmcgZGVjaXNpb25zIGFuZCBlbWJyYWNpbmcgcG9saWNpZXMgdGhhdCB3b3VsZCBu ZXZlciByZWFjaCBjb25zZW5zdXMgaW4gdGhlIGJyb2FkZXIgY2lyY2xlIG9mDQo+IG5vbi10ZWNo bmljYWwgSW50ZXJuZXQgc3Rha2Vob2xkZXJzLg0KDQo+IFNldmVyYWwgcGVvcGxlIGhlcmUgc2Vl bSB0byB0aGluayB0aGF0IHRoZXkgY2FuIHVzZSB0aGVpciBwb3NpdGlvbiBvZiB0ZWNobm9sb2d5 IG1ha2VycyB0byBmb3JjZQ0KPiB1bndlbGNvbWUgcG9saWNpZXMgb250byBhYm91dCAyMDAgY291 bnRyaWVzIGluIHRoZSB3b3JsZCwgYnV0IEkgZG91YnQgdGhhdCBpbiB0aGUgbG9uZyB0ZXJtIHRo aXMNCj4gYXR0ZW1wdCB3aWxsIGJvZGUgd2VsbCBmb3IgdGhlIEludGVybmV0LiBJIHRoaW5rIHdl IHdpbGwganVzdCBzZWUgbW9yZSBuYXRpb25hbC9yZWdpb25hbCBJbnRlcm5ldHMgd2l0aA0KPiBj b250cm9sbGVkIGludGVyY29ubmVjdGlvbnMgYW1vbmcgdGhlbSwgYW5kL29yIGEgdmlydHVhbCAi anVyaXNkaWN0aW9uIGxheWVyIiBhcHBsaWVkIG92ZXIgdGhlDQo+IG5ldHdvcmsgdGhyb3VnaCBn bG9iYWwgY2l0aXplbnNoaXAtYmFzZWQgcnVsZXMgKGUuZy4gR0RQUikuDQoNCkkgYWdyZWUgd2l0 aCBWaXR0b3Jpb+KAmXMgcG9pbnRzIGFib3ZlLCBiZWxpZXZlIHRoYXQgdGhlIElFVEYgYW5kIG90 aGVyIGJvZGllcyBpZ25vcmUgdGhpcyBhdCB0aGVpciBwZXJpbC4NCg0KDQpPbiAyNyBEZWNlbWJl ciAyMDE5IDEzOjQ0LCAgU3RlcGhhbmUgQm9ydHptZXllciA8Ym9ydHptZXllckBuaWMuZnI8bWFp bHRvOmJvcnR6bWV5ZXJAbmljLmZyPj4gd3JvdGU6DQoNCj4gT25lIG9mIHRoZSByZWFzb25zIGZv ciB0aGlzIHNpdHVhdGlvbiBpcyB0aGF0IHRoZXJlIGlzIG5vIHN1Y2ggdGhpbmcgYXMgYW4gIklu dGVybmV0IGNvbW11bml0eSIuIFBlb3BsZQ0KPiB1c2luZyB0aGUgSW50ZXJuZXQsIGFuZCBldmVu IHRoZSBzdWJzZXQgb2YgcGVvcGxlIGNvbnRyaWJ1dGluZyBkaXJlY3RseSB0byB0aGUgSUVURiwg YXJlIG5vdCBhIHBvbGl0aWNhbA0KPiBwYXJ0eSwgYSByZWxpZ2lvbiwgYSBjdWx0IG9yIGEgdHJp YmUuIFRoZXkgYXJlIHZlcnkgZGl2ZXJzZSwgYW5kLCBmb3IgaW5zdGFuY2UsIGhhdmUgdmVyeSBk aWZmZXJlbnQgcG9saXRpY2FsDQo+IG9waW5pb25zIChzb21lIHdvcmsgb24gYmV0dGVyIGNlbnNv cnNoaXAgdG9vbHMgYW5kIHNvbWUgb24gYmV0dGVyIGFudGktY2Vuc29yc2hpcCB0b29scy4uLikN Cg0KVGhlIElFVEYgaXMgbWFueSB0aGluZ3MsIGl0IGlzIG5vdCBob3dldmVyIGVzcGVjaWFsbHkg ZGl2ZXJzZSBieSBtb3N0IGFjY2VwdGVkIGRlZmluaXRpb25zIG9mIHRoZSB0ZXJtLiAgSXQgaXMg bm90YWJsZSwgZm9yIGV4YW1wbGUsIHRoYXQgaXRlbXMgZ2VuZXJhbGx5DQoNCj4gTm90aGluZyBj YW4gInJlYWNoIGNvbnNlbnN1cyBpbiB0aGUgYnJvYWRlciBjaXJjbGUgb2Ygbm9uLXRlY2huaWNh bCBJbnRlcm5ldCBzdGFrZWhvbGRlcnMiLCB0aGV5IGFyZSB0b28gZGl2ZXJzZS4NCg0KVGhpcyBp cyBhbiB1bnVzdWFsIGFyZ3VtZW50IGFnYWluc3QgZGl2ZXJzaXR5LiAgSSBub3RlIHRoYXQgdGhl cmUgaXMgYSBsYXJnZSBib2R5IG9mIGV2aWRlbmNlIHRoYXQgc2hvd3MgdGhhdCBvcmdhbmlzYXRp b25zIG9mIGFsbCB0eXBlcyBwZXJmb3JtIGJldHRlciB3aGVuIHRoZXkgZW1icmFjZSBkaXZlcnNp dHksIGFuZCBjb252ZXJzZWx5IHRoYXQgb3JnYW5pc2F0aW9ucyB0aGF0IGRvIG5vdCBhcmUgZG9v bWVkIHRvIHVuZGVycGVyZm9ybWFuY2UuICBJdCBtYXkgaW5kZWVkIGJlIGhhcmRlciAoYnV0IGJ5 IG5vIG1lYW5zIGltcG9zc2libGUpIHRvIHJlYWNoIGNvbnNlbnN1cyBidXQgdGhhdCBpcyB0cnVl LCBpbiBwYXJ0LCBiZWNhdXNlIGVycm9uZW91cyBjaG9pY2VzIGFyZSByZWplY3RlZCBhbmQgYmV0 dGVyIGRlY2lzaW9ucyBhcmUgbWFkZSBhcyBhIGNvbnNlcXVlbmNlLg0KDQoNCk9uIDI3LURlYy0x OSAxOToyOCwgQnJpYW4gRSBDYXJwZW50ZXIgPGJyaWFuLmUuY2FycGVudGVyQGdtYWlsLmNvbTxt YWlsdG86YnJpYW4uZS5jYXJwZW50ZXJAZ21haWwuY29tPj4gd3JvdGU6DQoNCj4gSSdkIGdvIGEg Yml0IGZ1cnRoZXIuIElNSE8sIHRoZSBJRVRGICgrSUFCKSBkb2VzIGJlc3QgYnkgZXhwbGljaXRs eSBleGNsdWRpbmcgcG9saXRpY2FsLCBlY29ub21pYw0KPiBvciBzb2Npb2xvZ2ljYWwgaXNzdWVz IGZyb20gb3VyIHJlYXNvbmluZyAqZXZlbiBpZiB0aGV5IHNlZW0gcmVsZXZhbnQqLiBSRkMgMTk4 NCwgMjgwNCBhbmQNCj4gNzI1OCBhcmUgZ29vZCBleGFtcGxlcyBvZiBkb2N1bWVudHMgdGhhdCBz dGljayB0byB0ZWNobmljYWwgYXJndW1lbnRzIGluIHRoZSBmYWNlIG9mIGEgZ3JlYXQNCj4gdGVt cHRhdGlvbiB0byAiZ28gcG9saXRpY2FsIi4gRm9yIHRoZSByZXNpbGllbmNlIChvciByb2J1c3Ru ZXNzKSBkaXNjdXNzaW9uLCB3ZSBzaG91bGQgZG8gdGhlDQo+IHNhbWUuDQoNCkkgbm90ZSB0aGF0 IGl0IGlzIGEgY29tbW9ubHkgc3RhdGVkIHBvc2l0aW9uIHRoYXQgdGhlIElFVEYgZG9lcyBub3Qg ZGVhbCB3aXRoICJwb2xpY3kiIGlzc3Vlcy4gIEhvd2V2ZXIgSSBzdWdnZXN0IHRoYXQgaW4gbWFu eSBpbnN0YW5jZXMgdGhpcyBpcyBpbiBmYWN0IGEgZmFsbGFjeSBhbmQgdGhhdCwgYnkgYWRkcmVz c2luZyBjZXJ0YWluICJ0ZWNobmljYWwiIGlzc3VlcyBpbiBhIHBhcnRpY3VsYXIgbWFubmVyLCBp dCBpcyBpbmRlZWQgdGFraW5nIGFuIGltcGxpZWQgc3RhbmNlIG9uIGEgcG9saWN5IGlzc3VlLCBv ciBhdCBsZWFzdCBhc3N1bWluZyB0aGF0IHN1Y2ggYSBzdGFuY2UgbWF5IGhhdmUgYmVlbiB0YWtl biBieSBvdGhlcnMuICBJbiBvdGhlciB3b3JkcywgdGhlIGFic2VuY2Ugb2YgYW4gZXhwbGljaXQg cG9saWN5IHBvc2l0aW9uIGRvZXMgbm90LCBpbiByZWFsaXR5LCBtZWFuIHRoYXQgc3VjaCBhIHBv c2l0aW9uIGhhcyBub3QgYmVlbiB0YWtlbiBieSB0aGUgSUVURi4NCg0KVGhpcyBsYWNrIG9mIGEg Y2xlYXJseSBhcnRpY3VsYXRlZCAoYW5kIHRlc3RlZCkgcG9saWN5IHBvc2l0aW9uIG9uIHdoaWNo IHRvIGJ1aWxkIGEgdGVjaG5pY2FsIHNvbHV0aW9uIGlzIGEgcHJvYmxlbS4gIEluIG15IHZpZXcg aXQgd291bGQgYmUgaHVnZWx5IGFkdmFudGFnZW91cyBmb3IgYW5vdGhlciwgYmV0dGVyIHF1YWxp ZmllZCwgYm9keSB0byBhZGRyZXNzIHRoZXNlIHBvbGljeSBpc3N1ZXMgcHJvcGVybHkgYW5kIHRo ZW4gZGVsZWdhdGUgYW55IHN1YnNlcXVlbnQgdGVjaG5pY2FsIGltcGxlbWVudGF0aW9uIHJlcXVp cmVtZW50cyB0byB0aGUgSUVURiBvciBvdGhlciBib2RpZXMgYXMgYXBwcm9wcmlhdGUuDQoNCg== --_000_LO2P265MB0573D63DA3AB1BC61CB53693C2250LO2P265MB0573GBRP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGh0bWw+DQo8aGVhZD4NCjxtZXRhIGh0dHAtZXF1aXY9IkNvbnRlbnQtVHlwZSIgY29udGVudD0i dGV4dC9odG1sOyBjaGFyc2V0PXV0Zi04Ij4NCjxtZXRhIG5hbWU9IkdlbmVyYXRvciIgY29udGVu dD0iTWljcm9zb2Z0IEV4Y2hhbmdlIFNlcnZlciI+DQo8IS0tIGNvbnZlcnRlZCBmcm9tIHJ0ZiAt LT4NCjxzdHlsZT48IS0tIC5FbWFpbFF1b3RlIHsgbWFyZ2luLWxlZnQ6IDFwdDsgcGFkZGluZy1s ZWZ0OiA0cHQ7IGJvcmRlci1sZWZ0OiAjODAwMDAwIDJweCBzb2xpZDsgfSAtLT48L3N0eWxlPg0K PC9oZWFkPg0KPGJvZHk+DQo8Zm9udCBmYWNlPSJDYWxpYnJpIiBzaXplPSIzIj48c3BhbiBzdHls ZT0iZm9udC1zaXplOjEycHQ7Ij4NCjxkaXY+PGI+T24gRnJpLCBEZWMgMjcsIDIwMTkgYXQgPC9i PjxiPjEwOjUzPC9iPjxiPiwmbmJzcDsgVml0dG9yaW8gQmVydG9sYSAmbHQ7PC9iPjxhIGhyZWY9 Im1haWx0bzp2aXR0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20iPjxmb250IGNvbG9yPSIj MDU2M0MxIj48Yj48dT52aXR0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb208L3U+PC9iPjwv Zm9udD48L2E+PGI+Jmd0OzwvYj48Yj4gPC9iPjxiPndyb3RlOjwvYj48L2Rpdj4NCjxkaXY+Jm5i c3A7PC9kaXY+DQo8ZGl2PiZndDsgSW4gcHJhY3RpY2FsIHRlcm1zLCB5b3UgYXJlIHJpZ2h0OiB0 aGUgSUVURiBjYW4gZWZmZWN0aXZlbHkgZGlzY3VzcyBhbiBpc3N1ZSwgY29tZSB0byBhIGRlY2lz aW9uIG9uIGl0IDwvZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj4mZ3Q7IGFuZCByZWxlYXNlIGEgZG9jdW1lbnQsIHdpdGgg dmFyaWFibGUgbm9ybWF0aXZlIGRlZ3JlZS4gSUNBTk4gY2FuIGRvIHRoZSBzYW1lLCBidXQgbXVj aCBsZXNzIDwvZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj4mZ3Q7ICZxdW90O2VmZmVjdGl2ZWx5JnF1b3Q7IC0gaXQgdGFr ZXMgeWVhcnMgZm9yIGl0IHRvIGNvbWUgdG8gYSBkZWNpc2lvbiwgYW5kIG5vdCByYXJlbHkgaXQg ZmFpbHMgdG8gYWNoaWV2ZSBjb25zZW5zdXMuIDwvZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj4mZ3Q7IFRoZSBJR0YgaXMg ZXZlbiB3b3JzZSAtIGl0IGNhbiBvbmx5IHRhbGssIGJ1dCBpdCBjYW5ub3QgdGFrZSBkZWNpc2lv bnMgb3IgZG9jdW1lbnQgdGhlbSAodGhvdWdoIHRoZXkgPC9kaXY+DQo8ZGl2PiZndDsgYXJlIG5v dyBhdHRlbXB0aW5nIHRvIGNvbWUgdXAgd2l0aCAmcXVvdDttZXNzYWdlcyZxdW90OywgYXMgYSBj b2xsZWN0aW9uIG9mIHN0YXRlbWVudHMgZnJvbSBzZXNzaW9uIDwvZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj4mZ3Q7IG9y Z2FuaXplcnMsIHdoaWNoIElNSE8gaXMgYSB0ZXJyaWJsZSBpZGVhLCBiZWNhdXNlIHRoZXkgZG8g bm90IHJlZmxlY3QgYW55IGtpbmQgb2YgY29uc2Vuc3VzIHByb2Nlc3MgPC9kaXY+DQo8ZGl2PiZn dDsgYW5kIHNvIHdpbGwgYmUgaW1tZWRpYXRlbHkgY2hhbGxlbmdlZCkuPC9kaXY+DQo8ZGl2PiZu YnNwOzwvZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj4mZ3Q7IEhvd2V2ZXIsIHRoZSBmYWN0IHRoYXQgYSBwcm9wZXIsIGVm ZmVjdGl2ZSwgZ2xvYmFsIHBvbGljeS1tYWtpbmcgYm9keSBmb3IgdGhlIEludGVybmV0IGRvZXMg bm90IGV4aXN0IDwvZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj4mZ3Q7IHdpbGwgbm90IG1ha2UgdGhlIG5lZWQgZm9yIGl0 IGRpc2FwcGVhci4gU2ltcGx5LCB3aGF0IGlzIGhhcHBlbmluZyBpcyB0aGF0LCBpbiB0aGUgYWJz ZW5jZSBvZiBnbG9iYWwgPC9kaXY+DQo8ZGl2PiZndDsgY29uc2Vuc3VzIGRlY2lzaW9ucyBvbiBw b2xpY3kgaXNzdWVzLCB0aGUgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBhbmQgdGhlIGFjdGlvbiBtb3ZlcyB0byB0aGUg b25seSBsZXZlbCB3aGljaCBpcyA8L2Rpdj4NCjxkaXY+Jmd0OyBlcXVpcHBlZCB3aXRoIHNvbWV3 aGF0IGVmZmVjdGl2ZSBwb2xpY3kgbWFraW5nIGFuZCBlbmZvcmNlbWVudCB0b29sczogbmF0aW9u YWwgUGFybGlhbWVudHMgYW5kIDwvZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj4mZ3Q7IGdvdmVybm1lbnRzLjwvZGl2Pg0K PGRpdj4mbmJzcDs8L2Rpdj4NCjxkaXY+VGhlIGxhY2sgb2YgYW4gZWZmZWN0aXZlLCBnbG9iYWwg cG9saWN5IG1ha2luZyBib2R5IGZvciB0aGUgaW50ZXJuZXQgaXMgYSBwcm9ibGVtIHRoYXQgbmVl ZHMgdG8gYmUgYWRkcmVzc2VkIGFzIGl0IGlzIGEgc2lnbmlmaWNhbnQgZ2FwLiZuYnNwOyBJbiBp dHMgYWJzZW5jZSwgYm9kaWVzIGxpa2UgdGhlIElFVEYsIElDQU5OIGFuZCBvdGhlcnMgbWFrZSBv ciBhc3N1bWUgcG9saWN5IGRlY2lzaW9ucyBpbiBhIHN1Yi1vcHRpbWFsIHdheSB3aGVuIGluDQpy ZWFsaXR5IHRoZXkgd291bGQgYWxsIGJlbmVmaXQgZnJvbSBhIHByb3Blcmx5IGNvbnN0aXR1dGVk IGFuZCBxdWFsaWZpZWQgYm9keSBmdWxmaWxsaW5nIHRoaXMgZnVuY3Rpb24uJm5ic3A7IFRoZXJl Zm9yZSwgZWl0aGVyIGFjdGlvbiBuZWVkcyB0byBiZSB0YWtlbiBzbyB0aGF0IHRoZSBJR0YgY2Fu IGZ1bGZpbCB0aGlzIHJvbGUgZWZmZWN0aXZlbHkgb3IgYSBuZXcgYm9keSBuZWVkcyB0byBiZSBj b25zdGl0dXRlZCB0byBkbyBzby4mbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsgPC9kaXY+DQo8ZGl2 PiZuYnNwOzwvZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj4mZ3Q7IFRoaXMgaXMgYSBjb25zZXF1ZW5jZSBvZiB0aGUgSW50 ZXJuZXQgY29tbXVuaXR5IGZhaWxpbmcgdG8gZXN0YWJsaXNoIGFuIGVmZmVjdGl2ZSBnbG9iYWwg cG9saWN5LW1ha2luZyA8L2Rpdj4NCjxkaXY+Jmd0OyBtZWNoYW5pc20gaW4gcGFyYWxsZWwgdG8g dGhlIHZlcnkgZWZmZWN0aXZlIGdsb2JhbCB0ZWNobmljYWwgc3RhbmRhcmRpemF0aW9uIG1lY2hh bmlzbSwgYW5kIG9uIHRvcCBvZiA8L2Rpdj4NCjxkaXY+Jmd0OyBpdCwgdGFraW5nIGRlY2lzaW9u cyBhbmQgZW1icmFjaW5nIHBvbGljaWVzIHRoYXQgd291bGQgbmV2ZXIgcmVhY2ggY29uc2Vuc3Vz IGluIHRoZSBicm9hZGVyIGNpcmNsZSBvZiA8L2Rpdj4NCjxkaXY+Jmd0OyBub24tdGVjaG5pY2Fs IEludGVybmV0IHN0YWtlaG9sZGVycy48L2Rpdj4NCjxkaXY+Jm5ic3A7PC9kaXY+DQo8ZGl2PiZn dDsgU2V2ZXJhbCBwZW9wbGUgaGVyZSBzZWVtIHRvIHRoaW5rIHRoYXQgdGhleSBjYW4gdXNlIHRo ZWlyIHBvc2l0aW9uIG9mIHRlY2hub2xvZ3kgbWFrZXJzIHRvIGZvcmNlIDwvZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj4m Z3Q7IHVud2VsY29tZSBwb2xpY2llcyBvbnRvIGFib3V0IDIwMCBjb3VudHJpZXMgaW4gdGhlIHdv cmxkLCBidXQgSSBkb3VidCB0aGF0IGluIHRoZSBsb25nIHRlcm0gdGhpcyA8L2Rpdj4NCjxkaXY+ Jmd0OyBhdHRlbXB0IHdpbGwgYm9kZSB3ZWxsIGZvciB0aGUgSW50ZXJuZXQuIEkgdGhpbmsgd2Ug d2lsbCBqdXN0IHNlZSBtb3JlIG5hdGlvbmFsL3JlZ2lvbmFsIEludGVybmV0cyB3aXRoIDwvZGl2 Pg0KPGRpdj4mZ3Q7IGNvbnRyb2xsZWQgaW50ZXJjb25uZWN0aW9ucyBhbW9uZyB0aGVtLCBhbmQv b3IgYSB2aXJ0dWFsICZxdW90O2p1cmlzZGljdGlvbiBsYXllciZxdW90OyBhcHBsaWVkIG92ZXIg dGhlIDwvZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj4mZ3Q7IG5ldHdvcmsgdGhyb3VnaCBnbG9iYWwgY2l0aXplbnNoaXAt YmFzZWQgcnVsZXMgKGUuZy4gR0RQUikuPC9kaXY+DQo8ZGl2PiZuYnNwOzwvZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj5J IGFncmVlIHdpdGggVml0dG9yaW/igJlzIHBvaW50cyBhYm92ZSwgYmVsaWV2ZSB0aGF0IHRoZSBJ RVRGIGFuZCBvdGhlciBib2RpZXMgaWdub3JlIHRoaXMgYXQgdGhlaXIgcGVyaWwuJm5ic3A7IDwv ZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj4mbmJzcDs8L2Rpdj4NCjxkaXY+Jm5ic3A7PC9kaXY+DQo8ZGl2PjxiPk9uIDwv Yj48Yj4yNyBEZWNlbWJlciAyMDE5IDEzOjQ0PC9iPjxiPiwmbmJzcDsgPC9iPjxiPlN0ZXBoYW5l IEJvcnR6bWV5ZXIgJmx0OzwvYj48YSBocmVmPSJtYWlsdG86Ym9ydHptZXllckBuaWMuZnIiPjxm b250IGNvbG9yPSIjMDU2M0MxIj48Yj48dT5ib3J0em1leWVyQG5pYy5mcjwvdT48L2I+PC9mb250 PjwvYT48Yj4mZ3Q7PC9iPjxiPiA8L2I+PGI+d3JvdGU6PC9iPjwvZGl2Pg0KPGEgbmFtZT0iX01h aWxFbmRDb21wb3NlIj48L2E+DQo8ZGl2PiZuYnNwOzwvZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj4mZ3Q7IE9uZSBvZiB0 aGUgcmVhc29ucyBmb3IgdGhpcyBzaXR1YXRpb24gaXMgdGhhdCB0aGVyZSBpcyBubyBzdWNoIHRo aW5nIGFzIGFuICZxdW90O0ludGVybmV0IGNvbW11bml0eSZxdW90Oy4gUGVvcGxlIDwvZGl2Pg0K PGRpdj4mZ3Q7IHVzaW5nIHRoZSBJbnRlcm5ldCwgYW5kIGV2ZW4gdGhlIHN1YnNldCBvZiBwZW9w bGUgY29udHJpYnV0aW5nIGRpcmVjdGx5IHRvIHRoZSBJRVRGLCBhcmUgbm90IGEgcG9saXRpY2Fs IDwvZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj4mZ3Q7IHBhcnR5LCBhIHJlbGlnaW9uLCBhIGN1bHQgb3IgYSB0cmliZS4g VGhleSBhcmUgdmVyeSBkaXZlcnNlLCBhbmQsIGZvciBpbnN0YW5jZSwgaGF2ZSB2ZXJ5IGRpZmZl cmVudCBwb2xpdGljYWwgPC9kaXY+DQo8ZGl2PiZndDsgb3BpbmlvbnMgKHNvbWUgd29yayBvbiBi ZXR0ZXIgY2Vuc29yc2hpcCB0b29scyBhbmQgc29tZSBvbiBiZXR0ZXIgYW50aS1jZW5zb3JzaGlw IHRvb2xzLi4uKTwvZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj4mbmJzcDs8L2Rpdj4NCjxkaXY+VGhlIElFVEYgaXMgbWFu eSB0aGluZ3MsIGl0IGlzIG5vdCBob3dldmVyIGVzcGVjaWFsbHkgZGl2ZXJzZSBieSBtb3N0IGFj Y2VwdGVkIGRlZmluaXRpb25zIG9mIHRoZSB0ZXJtLiZuYnNwOyBJdCBpcyBub3RhYmxlLCBmb3Ig ZXhhbXBsZSwgdGhhdCBpdGVtcyBnZW5lcmFsbHkgPC9kaXY+DQo8ZGl2PiZuYnNwOzwvZGl2Pg0K PGRpdj4mZ3Q7IE5vdGhpbmcgY2FuICZxdW90O3JlYWNoIGNvbnNlbnN1cyBpbiB0aGUgYnJvYWRl ciBjaXJjbGUgb2Ygbm9uLXRlY2huaWNhbCBJbnRlcm5ldCBzdGFrZWhvbGRlcnMmcXVvdDssIHRo ZXkgYXJlIHRvbyBkaXZlcnNlLjwvZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj4mbmJzcDs8L2Rpdj4NCjxkaXY+VGhpcyBp cyBhbiB1bnVzdWFsIGFyZ3VtZW50IGFnYWluc3QgZGl2ZXJzaXR5LiZuYnNwOyBJIG5vdGUgdGhh dCB0aGVyZSBpcyBhIGxhcmdlIGJvZHkgb2YgZXZpZGVuY2UgdGhhdCBzaG93cyB0aGF0IG9yZ2Fu aXNhdGlvbnMgb2YgYWxsIHR5cGVzIHBlcmZvcm0gYmV0dGVyIHdoZW4gdGhleSBlbWJyYWNlIGRp dmVyc2l0eSwgYW5kIGNvbnZlcnNlbHkgdGhhdCBvcmdhbmlzYXRpb25zIHRoYXQgZG8gbm90IGFy ZSBkb29tZWQgdG8gdW5kZXJwZXJmb3JtYW5jZS4mbmJzcDsNCkl0IG1heSBpbmRlZWQgYmUgaGFy ZGVyIChidXQgYnkgbm8gbWVhbnMgaW1wb3NzaWJsZSkgdG8gcmVhY2ggY29uc2Vuc3VzIGJ1dCB0 aGF0IGlzIHRydWUsIGluIHBhcnQsIGJlY2F1c2UgZXJyb25lb3VzIGNob2ljZXMgYXJlIHJlamVj dGVkIGFuZCBiZXR0ZXIgZGVjaXNpb25zIGFyZSBtYWRlIGFzIGEgY29uc2VxdWVuY2UuJm5ic3A7 IDwvZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj4mbmJzcDs8L2Rpdj4NCjxkaXY+Jm5ic3A7PC9kaXY+DQo8ZGl2PjxiPk9u IDI3LURlYy0xOSAxOToyOCwgQnJpYW4gRSBDYXJwZW50ZXIgJmx0OzwvYj48YSBocmVmPSJtYWls dG86YnJpYW4uZS5jYXJwZW50ZXJAZ21haWwuY29tIj48Zm9udCBjb2xvcj0iIzA1NjNDMSI+PGI+ PHU+YnJpYW4uZS5jYXJwZW50ZXJAZ21haWwuY29tPC91PjwvYj48L2ZvbnQ+PC9hPjxiPiZndDs8 L2I+PGI+IDwvYj48Yj53cm90ZTo8L2I+PC9kaXY+DQo8ZGl2PiZuYnNwOzwvZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj4m Z3Q7IEknZCBnbyBhIGJpdCBmdXJ0aGVyLiBJTUhPLCB0aGUgSUVURiAoJiM0MztJQUIpIGRvZXMg YmVzdCBieSBleHBsaWNpdGx5IGV4Y2x1ZGluZyBwb2xpdGljYWwsIGVjb25vbWljIDwvZGl2Pg0K PGRpdj4mZ3Q7IG9yIHNvY2lvbG9naWNhbCBpc3N1ZXMgZnJvbSBvdXIgcmVhc29uaW5nICpldmVu IGlmIHRoZXkgc2VlbSByZWxldmFudCouIFJGQyAxOTg0LCAyODA0IGFuZCA8L2Rpdj4NCjxkaXY+ Jmd0OyA3MjU4IGFyZSBnb29kIGV4YW1wbGVzIG9mIGRvY3VtZW50cyB0aGF0IHN0aWNrIHRvIHRl Y2huaWNhbCBhcmd1bWVudHMgaW4gdGhlIGZhY2Ugb2YgYSBncmVhdCA8L2Rpdj4NCjxkaXY+Jmd0 OyB0ZW1wdGF0aW9uIHRvICZxdW90O2dvIHBvbGl0aWNhbCZxdW90Oy4gRm9yIHRoZSByZXNpbGll bmNlIChvciByb2J1c3RuZXNzKSBkaXNjdXNzaW9uLCB3ZSBzaG91bGQgZG8gdGhlIDwvZGl2Pg0K PGRpdj4mZ3Q7IHNhbWUuPC9kaXY+DQo8ZGl2PiZuYnNwOzwvZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj5JIG5vdGUgdGhh dCBpdCBpcyBhIGNvbW1vbmx5IHN0YXRlZCBwb3NpdGlvbiB0aGF0IHRoZSBJRVRGIGRvZXMgbm90 IGRlYWwgd2l0aCAmcXVvdDtwb2xpY3kmcXVvdDsgaXNzdWVzLiZuYnNwOyBIb3dldmVyIEkgc3Vn Z2VzdCB0aGF0IGluIG1hbnkgaW5zdGFuY2VzIHRoaXMgaXMgaW4gZmFjdCBhIGZhbGxhY3kgYW5k IHRoYXQsIGJ5IGFkZHJlc3NpbmcgY2VydGFpbiAmcXVvdDt0ZWNobmljYWwmcXVvdDsgaXNzdWVz IGluIGEgcGFydGljdWxhciBtYW5uZXIsIGl0IGlzIGluZGVlZCB0YWtpbmcNCmFuIGltcGxpZWQg c3RhbmNlIG9uIGEgcG9saWN5IGlzc3VlLCBvciBhdCBsZWFzdCBhc3N1bWluZyB0aGF0IHN1Y2gg YSBzdGFuY2UgbWF5IGhhdmUgYmVlbiB0YWtlbiBieSBvdGhlcnMuJm5ic3A7IEluIG90aGVyIHdv cmRzLCB0aGUgYWJzZW5jZSBvZiBhbiBleHBsaWNpdCBwb2xpY3kgcG9zaXRpb24gZG9lcyBub3Qs IGluIHJlYWxpdHksIG1lYW4gdGhhdCBzdWNoIGEgcG9zaXRpb24gaGFzIG5vdCBiZWVuIHRha2Vu IGJ5IHRoZSBJRVRGLiZuYnNwOyA8L2Rpdj4NCjxkaXY+Jm5ic3A7PC9kaXY+DQo8ZGl2PlRoaXMg bGFjayBvZiBhIGNsZWFybHkgYXJ0aWN1bGF0ZWQgKGFuZCB0ZXN0ZWQpIHBvbGljeSBwb3NpdGlv biBvbiB3aGljaCB0byBidWlsZCBhIHRlY2huaWNhbCBzb2x1dGlvbiBpcyBhIHByb2JsZW0uJm5i c3A7IEluIG15IHZpZXcgaXQgd291bGQgYmUgaHVnZWx5IGFkdmFudGFnZW91cyBmb3IgYW5vdGhl ciwgYmV0dGVyIHF1YWxpZmllZCwgYm9keSB0byBhZGRyZXNzIHRoZXNlIHBvbGljeSBpc3N1ZXMg cHJvcGVybHkgYW5kIHRoZW4gZGVsZWdhdGUNCmFueSBzdWJzZXF1ZW50IHRlY2huaWNhbCBpbXBs ZW1lbnRhdGlvbiByZXF1aXJlbWVudHMgdG8gdGhlIElFVEYgb3Igb3RoZXIgYm9kaWVzIGFzIGFw cHJvcHJpYXRlLiZuYnNwOyA8L2Rpdj4NCjxkaXY+Jm5ic3A7PC9kaXY+DQo8L3NwYW4+PC9mb250 Pg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0KPC9odG1sPg0K --_000_LO2P265MB0573D63DA3AB1BC61CB53693C2250LO2P265MB0573GBRP_-- From nobody Sat Dec 28 10:48:53 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF32A12011E for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 10:48:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rsIDCZwrKNGz for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 10:48:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 763FA12010C for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 10:48:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ilH8p-0000Pm-SI; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 18:48:48 +0000 Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 10:48:47 -0800 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Stephane Bortzmeyer Cc: architecture-discuss@iab.org In-Reply-To: <20191227134419.GA19644@nic.fr> References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227102943.GA14015@nic.fr> <1829722692.7358.1577443983540@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227134419.GA19644@nic.fr> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/26.2 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 18:48:52 -0000 >> However, the fact that a proper, effective, global policy-making >> body for the Internet does not exist will not make the need for it >> disappear. > Yes, it would be cool if it existed. not clear. a little chaos and need for open communication to coordinate may be saving us from even worse centralisation and authoritarianism. randy From nobody Sat Dec 28 10:57:22 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B60A120131 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 10:57:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=netorgft5189650.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7IR_7kIjOms1 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 10:57:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from GBR01-LO2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr100062.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.10.62]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4130012010C for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 10:57:18 -0800 (PST) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=esZq4hLfosYU8ZPB/Vw5rF5Ojhx2BIxzkLQ/vuon/MolkNHfSwhcO7ZvGqJVXIAybcC9OSU5OpkrFpkjznL7k3vQ41qS+ZjjxAA+bsNu0JDAGT7BxoVjTVxVNqi9VpoS1l8V/POyqRIPPbEx6p4v4vkoubf2s3kbnMp87RZaOoYn7yM7uJWI5vH/y4NxpoZhhT6iM8Ub4oBt+l/wnoMbzEsV2UfNNr6WttyJ3L3zbXTT279TqoRSEvmqVugXeXLyDKb0FhG1eyCELFZy42a2qb/2gNnhdSw+FyJWVY3cS9mwZYvs04Zo0gkd+ZzNDNIds4zgeX21oCa6LcQRWOVOqg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=adqH3OJai2GlPJT0g15sOTN2wKJnA44J8tUzZNddiy0=; b=LG7D9XmFI3pnutQG52hDoQ5r2HZMtlAX3CwZOQGPCh6vlr0yCFO41EVd2gx6DbbejAKtBP9x4q6ISHlQqCxxvtsBoWsjIH8KRPuG8LfASTd0TtmLxURbPBKQTtt5xLoQvm3n8KXVAEWIPIXKnYG2RIxO69fBuSSvoX7VHFGi2UbxVqXMRUMiMph3qAwjcaeoynC1HEpCQWCpb9OlBXGI1wXYzm2xSTsRfEeWTwQoe2IPlPz2PnGINb1hHO2BGD57rAc3eHGK2redFOVrdnQEvAWs8dJQwbSxIHTm3MKSXikN1n4STcQB58ghcl3Jp/Fmom+OJdlLah5nGUo+a5BXkw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=419.consulting; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=419.consulting; dkim=pass header.d=419.consulting; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=NETORGFT5189650.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-NETORGFT5189650-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=adqH3OJai2GlPJT0g15sOTN2wKJnA44J8tUzZNddiy0=; b=jnhlIlHrZ+7ojM9CEaktAjJWRnWvzbJXKCuBIFJn0D2mR9NnxjcQsraSh0sY5e4UimeIvIs7MiQng5Kuo1J9g73o1n77RmHudzk/guhN/xgR366vHTnKIudy5hg3Ql3VzvpxvjwwJU7m9qtfS2J+/XJT0HPv3gfle+U0HZhKnAo= Received: from LO2P265MB0573.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (10.166.85.15) by LO2P265MB0158.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (10.166.98.23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2581.12; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 18:57:11 +0000 Received: from LO2P265MB0573.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::7d46:b916:32e9:1d73]) by LO2P265MB0573.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::7d46:b916:32e9:1d73%7]) with mapi id 15.20.2581.007; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 18:57:11 +0000 From: Andrew Campling To: S Moonesamy , "architecture-discuss@iab.org" Thread-Topic: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience Thread-Index: AQHVukMDSAF2l/t4vk24jZm59sMjO6fJIn0QgAVinSyAAWeUUA== Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 18:57:11 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20191227130815.120fc690@elandnews.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20191227130815.120fc690@elandnews.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=andrew.campling@419.consulting; x-originating-ip: [86.144.96.18] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 03a3e4aa-347d-4f47-9447-08d78bc7bec4 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: LO2P265MB0158: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8882; x-forefront-prvs: 02652BD10A x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(136003)(396003)(39830400003)(366004)(346002)(376002)(189003)(199004)(33656002)(53546011)(44832011)(6506007)(64756008)(66446008)(66476007)(66556008)(76116006)(110136005)(66946007)(316002)(71200400001)(2906002)(186003)(26005)(508600001)(55016002)(7696005)(9686003)(52536014)(8936002)(86362001)(4744005)(81166006)(81156014)(8676002)(5660300002)(46492004); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:LO2P265MB0158; H:LO2P265MB0573.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: 419.consulting does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: 419.consulting X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 03a3e4aa-347d-4f47-9447-08d78bc7bec4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 28 Dec 2019 18:57:11.1141 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 9c2ced3e-7522-4755-87dc-f983abc66ec3 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: ZEuQtmadwwWq7q6KiHbfgfG14jX6t1ihWHjTyxPNUh7ojHAG9MuMdb/FBUo88hxd7tvGUsO/XN+9Klu0BbBJLGFFVLI5sLUuGoi1Q/cOawk= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: LO2P265MB0158 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 18:57:21 -0000 On Dec 27, 2019, at 21:27, S Moonesamy wrote: > Does the IAB/IETF have a good record of addressing policy considerations? > It would be good to consider the objective(s) before getting into who nee= ds=20 > to be involved. Would writing an IAB statement help to attain the object= ive? To clarify, I am not advocating that the IAB or IETF addresses policy consi= derations, quite the reverse: I believe that policy considerations would be= better addressed elsewhere and that the technical requirements arising fro= m these are subsequently addressed by the IETF and other bodies as appropri= ate. The present situation, where the IETF maintains that it does not addr= ess policy considerations but, lacking guidance from a properly constituted= and qualified body, nevertheless makes technical decisions that are based = on inferred policy positions is unsatisfactory. =20 From nobody Sat Dec 28 11:06:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDE5A120105 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 11:06:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GVOqAhh54Bov for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 11:06:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x630.google.com (mail-pl1-x630.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::630]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4272612007A for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 11:06:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x630.google.com with SMTP id az3so13039944plb.11 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 11:06:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=XASk97zyqg3b0GmFbQZyTh++gNw9hvbx1uVABPy54W0=; b=CtzlunoRaJh2i3eIWhEMhm2VvQv8WoikBu+Lk4UTlYsAnTOkfkgh7QbxOc3MeT1lSN sXsjgMyW2byG3P2IBxDCPHYpUAY7Ijs9EZoLUqCkEXCWD1uVs1atJkmhEB9PY1/izPZg qL1sv6WE/4GnkZnD1+Ne7LKcJ25re6XX9vFQdZxwIHXELlZcjef9r4LuXzcXiNv9fksO HFy9u9HqDfMNe6Uh7Fpuu04PllzurGYMQav8vckonip/+tl9cb6dWdL2pLbE+o2jal8J M/h70Wv4W+W7paPWjM9SB7IfpQYEygfB9b2fJdCQrGriDqA30Ep+k0chch8LRHD9mYPi /QdA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=XASk97zyqg3b0GmFbQZyTh++gNw9hvbx1uVABPy54W0=; b=k1n94geztY/tze8ym7/n9GkSuXHpTPOATDyK82/mlPgkxxVbVwvDCUsTPdjFBMFxOV kYOBp8/VxfDZh53jaZFsHV8cr1RM8ZHbu7xXy/mIPTWtAvr03FBEzmu9JjJoF/41tx5Z 6zSithsfKbxFdRd4MyPxitjOhZaMuudQGA2+Yq8XhZ7i0sxhe3NjJedC+8oJ3aw1Knsg 64WjL+laFteK1mGPY6F1eBGQvsSkjljAr0s+T1ZTDxBVgwPFbyZWXo0gfu/6/k0AWF/D O6VNDjQZoy+x2TH62KRMR+/L5FMSjcZAZyPh+pbXJkWZmcXD4r2WpR3fF25PE1s4EnC7 t6FA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVT4Tm2BgPFZOBIsSMbVRvXF8bwDYD/Pmgs2ALkQ7vulhcw6c0K IQ/4+Vy3hzwrA2/nw9vavSw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxRbBS8FEHM93XccTPBe0feuQTV3dZ/Ns5GzEpYGqqfGp9dY2yAvX+cZdXBmQMgzdkGOkPSQA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:1115:: with SMTP id gi21mr34754953pjb.95.1577559970670; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 11:06:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.4.24] (c-67-169-103-239.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [67.169.103.239]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b22sm42617748pft.110.2019.12.28.11.06.09 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 28 Dec 2019 11:06:09 -0800 (PST) Sender: Tony Li From: tony.li@tony.li Message-Id: <2CA4CBDC-CAB0-4E02-BC4C-40DF67FB64BC@tony.li> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_4831AB43-751F-4417-BBEE-4E0D32227454" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 11:06:08 -0800 In-Reply-To: Cc: S Moonesamy , "architecture-discuss@iab.org" To: Andrew Campling References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20191227130815.120fc690@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 19:06:13 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_4831AB43-751F-4417-BBEE-4E0D32227454 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > To clarify, I am not advocating that the IAB or IETF addresses policy = considerations, quite the reverse: I believe that policy considerations = would be better addressed elsewhere and that the technical requirements = arising from these are subsequently addressed by the IETF and other = bodies as appropriate. The present situation, where the IETF maintains = that it does not address policy considerations but, lacking guidance = from a properly constituted and qualified body, nevertheless makes = technical decisions that are based on inferred policy positions is = unsatisfactory. =20 Policy is just another means for some small group of people to tell = other people what to do. We reject that at its very basis. We do not = want policy. We want cooperation. The Internet works because we propose things and reach rough consensus = on them. Those who feel that it=E2=80=99s a Good Idea try it out. It = gets tweaked. Others feel that it=E2=80=99s a Good Idea and join in. Or = not. Only when enough people participate does it become effective. We do not need people to try to set policy. They are not welcome. If a = group is constituted to form policy, we will not follow it. We do need Good Ideas. Folks who have them are welcome to propose them. Tony --Apple-Mail=_4831AB43-751F-4417-BBEE-4E0D32227454 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
To clarify, I am not advocating = that the IAB or IETF addresses policy considerations, quite the reverse: = I believe that policy considerations would be better addressed elsewhere = and that the technical requirements arising from these are subsequently = addressed by the IETF and other bodies as appropriate.  The present = situation, where the IETF maintains that it does not address policy = considerations but, lacking guidance from a properly constituted and = qualified body, nevertheless makes technical decisions that are based on = inferred policy positions is unsatisfactory. =  


Policy is just another means for some = small group of people to tell other people what to do. We reject that at = its very basis. We do not want policy. We want cooperation.

The Internet works = because we propose things and reach rough consensus on them. Those who = feel that it=E2=80=99s a Good Idea try it out. It gets tweaked. Others = feel that it=E2=80=99s a Good Idea and join in. Or not. Only when enough = people participate does it become effective.

We do not need people to try to set = policy. They are not welcome. If a group is constituted to form policy, = we will not follow it.

We do need Good Ideas. Folks who have them are welcome to = propose them.

Tony

= --Apple-Mail=_4831AB43-751F-4417-BBEE-4E0D32227454-- From nobody Sat Dec 28 11:31:46 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74D1212018D for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 11:31:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=netorgft5189650.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qdvMCj1UI5_m for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 11:31:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from GBR01-LO2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr100078.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.10.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 54631120170 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 11:31:41 -0800 (PST) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=IzzXeupX/6I4NBNXj7N929dWcIAGUwz7/BQn6s7FFLb475za5uMFbSO4HDexToitkkHb6VFLgYGOYEwuOQowKDZ3/gq3p4+rW3Jd95+5T4EVp49zmFiQ0cSSZrstCVDCX0Qxb020Eh6qVKZ54QQpz0RdwgnWxus259+dtOFURRNHsVfCR5Bq3ie4IgS+bpdNp4aJJonYXCknknxaB+VxmAmnaReOwt6TgKPIGnFWZlu87ozugFFD0YIKPMfEDTlaJAavByxwdOkBRY4gO4uYE+k7nlYhCcC4QwfEIvLkq9nh/qKMvAi/xZmrjRl4xfQByJzFxHSwkOsergTBSdmLYA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=qHAac7sAYyKLqZHPP8EauYGc3gWso2eMALakw+lmbSk=; b=Sb11UwCC7+xCjY6QMgYTo/fKGwSQqpfj/1iypsXS408tOrYnUYizLmxLSltRLhobeYmNcIT941vBIzzu9XujELKpUjTjNfr+1GD0o7E+RXhM+WJ8m3CSz2t1u8oEaEUZDbbffiXmUJaeBaH6wmSoHvXaFJwO+miV3x4r7XGy/oWI5cJfHGD2dq1iPRBE82YjxdnJeJTY38H/x/QOF0Zuf/+fOW5agtEgH0PHJqYlnqc7xrdW9mJcTFdbBdHZKmTMwpsNyLd3iHs+rP7y1hmR53U4aPN+RNOnu6t2nhBrS/twlwoKYSm+/7VVeLpA4tDvN+FLMwfKT7NX19NJmwPvpw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=419.consulting; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=419.consulting; dkim=pass header.d=419.consulting; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=NETORGFT5189650.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-NETORGFT5189650-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=qHAac7sAYyKLqZHPP8EauYGc3gWso2eMALakw+lmbSk=; b=FIJfhi6pPq/B8Y7uVJwS1Vzb7zg9N6nA4UlYwdTP+0DZhW1+hqpGexd5T6wtTfr+uTEgqHmsI6Rm9Wf8B8CTLDQJYYKNBuwdgzQ2P6P84GpQCbdAvWTfJ5C2JHmZ5TMFUD6s/cdpVlFNTj4W6h2bypjSSNWlDB8IUtgLpAHDMlE= Received: from LO2P265MB0573.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (10.166.85.15) by LO2P265MB1213.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (20.176.141.146) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2581.11; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 19:31:34 +0000 Received: from LO2P265MB0573.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::7d46:b916:32e9:1d73]) by LO2P265MB0573.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::7d46:b916:32e9:1d73%7]) with mapi id 15.20.2581.007; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 19:31:34 +0000 From: Andrew Campling To: "tony.li@tony.li" CC: S Moonesamy , "architecture-discuss@iab.org" Thread-Topic: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience Thread-Index: AQHVukMDSAF2l/t4vk24jZm59sMjO6fJIn0QgAVinSyAAWeUUIAAAoQAgAABHbA= Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 19:31:34 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20191227130815.120fc690@elandnews.com> <2CA4CBDC-CAB0-4E02-BC4C-40DF67FB64BC@tony.li> In-Reply-To: <2CA4CBDC-CAB0-4E02-BC4C-40DF67FB64BC@tony.li> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=andrew.campling@419.consulting; x-originating-ip: [86.144.96.18] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: b8008cf5-5112-429d-518a-08d78bcc8cca x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: LO2P265MB1213: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-forefront-prvs: 02652BD10A x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(396003)(136003)(39830400003)(376002)(366004)(346002)(189003)(199004)(7696005)(316002)(81166006)(8936002)(6916009)(81156014)(33656002)(66574012)(2906002)(54906003)(71200400001)(8676002)(508600001)(44832011)(9686003)(55016002)(66446008)(64756008)(5660300002)(76116006)(52536014)(66556008)(4326008)(66476007)(26005)(86362001)(53546011)(186003)(66946007)(6506007)(46492004); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:LO2P265MB1213; H:LO2P265MB0573.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: 419.consulting does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_LO2P265MB05733F3BE310F2B6DAFDA54FC2250LO2P265MB0573GBRP_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: 419.consulting X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b8008cf5-5112-429d-518a-08d78bcc8cca X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 28 Dec 2019 19:31:34.7083 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 9c2ced3e-7522-4755-87dc-f983abc66ec3 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 4MhmYbgNMuLxKEAHzXPuTxgdYwOx9leKxjvXMyG+Pgmi9sHnxpJJNqDUNcFpi2JCbIf64hozOQ9XNefZ/k6wOqz1L4SEWQExNCcfA8WcLhU= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: LO2P265MB1213 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 19:31:44 -0000 --_000_LO2P265MB05733F3BE310F2B6DAFDA54FC2250LO2P265MB0573GBRP_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 T24gRGVjIDI4LCAyMDE5LCBhdCAxOTowNiwgVG9ueSBMaSA8dG9ueTFhdGhvbWVAZ21haWwuY29t PiB3cm90ZToNCg0KPiBQb2xpY3kgaXMganVzdCBhbm90aGVyIG1lYW5zIGZvciBzb21lIHNtYWxs IGdyb3VwIG9mIHBlb3BsZSB0byB0ZWxsIG90aGVyIHBlb3BsZSB3aGF0DQo+IHRvIGRvLiBXZSBy ZWplY3QgdGhhdCBhdCBpdHMgdmVyeSBiYXNpcy4gV2UgZG8gbm90IHdhbnQgcG9saWN5LiBXZSB3 YW50IGNvb3BlcmF0aW9uLg0KDQo+IFRoZSBJbnRlcm5ldCB3b3JrcyBiZWNhdXNlIHdlIHByb3Bv c2UgdGhpbmdzIGFuZCByZWFjaCByb3VnaCBjb25zZW5zdXMgb24gdGhlbS4gVGhvc2UNCj4gd2hv IGZlZWwgdGhhdCBpdOKAmXMgYSBHb29kIElkZWEgdHJ5IGl0IG91dC4gSXQgZ2V0cyB0d2Vha2Vk LiBPdGhlcnMgZmVlbCB0aGF0IGl04oCZcyBhIEdvb2QgSWRlYQ0KPiBhbmQgam9pbiBpbi4gT3Ig bm90LiBPbmx5IHdoZW4gZW5vdWdoIHBlb3BsZSBwYXJ0aWNpcGF0ZSBkb2VzIGl0IGJlY29tZSBl ZmZlY3RpdmUuDQoNCj4gV2UgZG8gbm90IG5lZWQgcGVvcGxlIHRvIHRyeSB0byBzZXQgcG9saWN5 LiBUaGV5IGFyZSBub3Qgd2VsY29tZS4gSWYgYSBncm91cCBpcyBjb25zdGl0dXRlZA0KPiB0byBm b3JtIHBvbGljeSwgd2Ugd2lsbCBub3QgZm9sbG93IGl0Lg0KDQo+IFdlIGRvIG5lZWQgR29vZCBJ ZGVhcy4gRm9sa3Mgd2hvIGhhdmUgdGhlbSBhcmUgd2VsY29tZSB0byBwcm9wb3NlIHRoZW0uDQoN Cg0KVGhhdCBpcyBpcm9uaWNhbGx5IGEgcG9saWN5IG9mIHNvcnRzLCBvbmUgd2hpY2ggbWF5IG9y IG1heSBub3QgYmUgc2hhcmVkIGJ5IG90aGVycywgYW5kIHdoaWNoIG1heSBvciBtYXkgbm90IGJl IHJlcHJlc2VudCBhIHJvdWdoIGNvbnNlbnN1cyB2aWV3IG9mIHRob3NlIHBhcnRpY2lwYXRpbmcg aW4gdGhlIElFVEYuICBJIG5vdGUgaG93ZXZlciB0aGF0LCBmb3IgZXhhbXBsZSwgdGhlIG51bWJl ciBvZiBwZW9wbGUgcGFydGljaXBhdGluZyBkaXJlY3RseSBpbiB0aGUgSUdGIGlzIHNpZ25pZmlj YW50bHkgbGFyZ2VyIHRoYW4gdGhhdCBwYXJ0aWNpcGF0aW5nIGluIHRoZSBJRVRGIGFuZCB0aGF0 IHRoZSBmb3JtZXIgZ3JvdXAgaXMgc2lnbmlmaWNhbnRseSBtb3JlIGRpdmVyc2UgaW4gbmF0dXJl LiAgT24gdGhhdCBiYXNpcywgeW91IGNvdWxkLCB0byByZXBocmFzZSB5b3VyIHdvcmRzLCBhcmd1 ZSB0aGF0IHRlY2huaWNhbCBkZWNpc2lvbnMgdGFrZW4gYnkgdGhlIElFVEYgYXJlIGp1c3QgYW5v dGhlciBtZWFucyBmb3IgYSBzbWFsbCwgdW4tZGl2ZXJzZSBncm91cCBvZiBwZW9wbGUgdG8gdGVs bCBvdGhlciBwZW9wbGUgd2hhdCB0byBkby4gIFlvdSBtYXkgZmluZCB0aGF0IHRob3NlIG90aGVy IGdyb3VwcyBhcmUganVzdCBhcyBhZGFtYW50IGluIOKAnHJlamVjdGluZyB0aGF0IGF0IGl0cyB2 ZXJ5IGJhc2lz4oCdLCBhbmQgdGhhdCB0aGV5IGhhdmUgYW4gZXF1YWxseSBzdHJvbmcgZXhwZWN0 YXRpb24gb2YgY29vcGVyYXRpb24uDQoNCldoaWxzdCBpdCBtYXkgYmUgdW5jb21mb3J0YWJsZSBm b3Igc29tZSBwYXJ0aWNpcGFudHMsIHNvbWUgYWN0aW9ucyB0YWtlbiBieSB0aGUgSUVURiAoYW5k IG90aGVyIGdyb3VwcyBsaWtlIElDQU5OKSBkbyBpbiBmYWN0IGhhdmUgcG9saWN5IGltcGxpY2F0 aW9ucyBmb3Igb3RoZXJzLiAgSSBiZWxpZXZlIHRoYXQgaXQgaXMgZm9vbGlzaCB0byBpZ25vcmUg dGhpcyBhbmQgcHJldGVuZCB0aGF0IHRoZSBJRVRGIGNhbiBvcGVyYXRlIGluIGEgbGliZXJ0YXJp YW4gYnViYmxlLCBzb21laG93IGluc3VsYXRlZCBib3RoIGZyb20gdGhlIHJlc3VsdHMgb2YgaXRz IG93biBhY3Rpb25zIGFuZCBmcm9tIHRoZSB2aWV3cyBvZiBvdGhlcnMuDQoNCg0KQW5kcmV3DQo= --_000_LO2P265MB05733F3BE310F2B6DAFDA54FC2250LO2P265MB0573GBRP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGh0bWwgeG1sbnM6dj0idXJuOnNjaGVtYXMtbWljcm9zb2Z0LWNvbTp2bWwiIHhtbG5zOm89InVy bjpzY2hlbWFzLW1pY3Jvc29mdC1jb206b2ZmaWNlOm9mZmljZSIgeG1sbnM6dz0idXJuOnNjaGVt YXMtbWljcm9zb2Z0LWNvbTpvZmZpY2U6d29yZCIgeG1sbnM6bT0iaHR0cDovL3NjaGVtYXMubWlj cm9zb2Z0LmNvbS9vZmZpY2UvMjAwNC8xMi9vbW1sIiB4bWxucz0iaHR0cDovL3d3dy53My5vcmcv VFIvUkVDLWh0bWw0MCI+DQo8aGVhZD4NCjxtZXRhIGh0dHAtZXF1aXY9IkNvbnRlbnQtVHlwZSIg Y29udGVudD0idGV4dC9odG1sOyBjaGFyc2V0PXV0Zi04Ij4NCjxtZXRhIG5hbWU9IkdlbmVyYXRv ciIgY29udGVudD0iTWljcm9zb2Z0IFdvcmQgMTUgKGZpbHRlcmVkIG1lZGl1bSkiPg0KPHN0eWxl PjwhLS0NCi8qIEZvbnQgRGVmaW5pdGlvbnMgKi8NCkBmb250LWZhY2UNCgl7Zm9udC1mYW1pbHk6 IkNhbWJyaWEgTWF0aCI7DQoJcGFub3NlLTE6MiA0IDUgMyA1IDQgNiAzIDIgNDt9DQpAZm9udC1m YWNlDQoJe2ZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OkNhbGlicmk7DQoJcGFub3NlLTE6MiAxNSA1IDIgMiAyIDQgMyAy IDQ7fQ0KLyogU3R5bGUgRGVmaW5pdGlvbnMgKi8NCnAuTXNvTm9ybWFsLCBsaS5Nc29Ob3JtYWws IGRpdi5Nc29Ob3JtYWwNCgl7bWFyZ2luOjBjbTsNCgltYXJnaW4tYm90dG9tOi4wMDAxcHQ7DQoJ Zm9udC1zaXplOjExLjBwdDsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseToiQ2FsaWJyaSIsc2Fucy1zZXJpZjt9DQph OmxpbmssIHNwYW4uTXNvSHlwZXJsaW5rDQoJe21zby1zdHlsZS1wcmlvcml0eTo5OTsNCgljb2xv cjojMDU2M0MxOw0KCXRleHQtZGVjb3JhdGlvbjp1bmRlcmxpbmU7fQ0KYTp2aXNpdGVkLCBzcGFu Lk1zb0h5cGVybGlua0ZvbGxvd2VkDQoJe21zby1zdHlsZS1wcmlvcml0eTo5OTsNCgljb2xvcjoj OTU0RjcyOw0KCXRleHQtZGVjb3JhdGlvbjp1bmRlcmxpbmU7fQ0KcC5Nc29QbGFpblRleHQsIGxp Lk1zb1BsYWluVGV4dCwgZGl2Lk1zb1BsYWluVGV4dA0KCXttc28tc3R5bGUtcHJpb3JpdHk6OTk7 DQoJbXNvLXN0eWxlLWxpbms6IlBsYWluIFRleHQgQ2hhciI7DQoJbWFyZ2luOjBjbTsNCgltYXJn aW4tYm90dG9tOi4wMDAxcHQ7DQoJZm9udC1zaXplOjEyLjBwdDsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseToiQ2Fs aWJyaSIsc2Fucy1zZXJpZjsNCgltc28tZmFyZWFzdC1sYW5ndWFnZTpFTi1VUzt9DQpwLk1zb0xp c3RQYXJhZ3JhcGgsIGxpLk1zb0xpc3RQYXJhZ3JhcGgsIGRpdi5Nc29MaXN0UGFyYWdyYXBoDQoJ e21zby1zdHlsZS1wcmlvcml0eTozNDsNCgltYXJnaW4tdG9wOjBjbTsNCgltYXJnaW4tcmlnaHQ6 MGNtOw0KCW1hcmdpbi1ib3R0b206MGNtOw0KCW1hcmdpbi1sZWZ0OjM2LjBwdDsNCgltYXJnaW4t Ym90dG9tOi4wMDAxcHQ7DQoJZm9udC1zaXplOjExLjBwdDsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseToiQ2FsaWJy aSIsc2Fucy1zZXJpZjt9DQpwLm1zb25vcm1hbDAsIGxpLm1zb25vcm1hbDAsIGRpdi5tc29ub3Jt YWwwDQoJe21zby1zdHlsZS1uYW1lOm1zb25vcm1hbDsNCgltc28tbWFyZ2luLXRvcC1hbHQ6YXV0 bzsNCgltYXJnaW4tcmlnaHQ6MGNtOw0KCW1zby1tYXJnaW4tYm90dG9tLWFsdDphdXRvOw0KCW1h cmdpbi1sZWZ0OjBjbTsNCglmb250LXNpemU6MTEuMHB0Ow0KCWZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiJDYWxpYnJp IixzYW5zLXNlcmlmO30NCnNwYW4uRW1haWxTdHlsZTE4DQoJe21zby1zdHlsZS10eXBlOnBlcnNv bmFsLXJlcGx5Ow0KCWZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiJDYWxpYnJpIixzYW5zLXNlcmlmOw0KCWNvbG9yOndp bmRvd3RleHQ7fQ0Kc3Bhbi5QbGFpblRleHRDaGFyDQoJe21zby1zdHlsZS1uYW1lOiJQbGFpbiBU ZXh0IENoYXIiOw0KCW1zby1zdHlsZS1wcmlvcml0eTo5OTsNCgltc28tc3R5bGUtbGluazoiUGxh aW4gVGV4dCI7DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IkNhbGlicmkiLHNhbnMtc2VyaWY7DQoJbXNvLWZhcmVh c3QtbGFuZ3VhZ2U6RU4tVVM7fQ0KLk1zb0NocERlZmF1bHQNCgl7bXNvLXN0eWxlLXR5cGU6ZXhw b3J0LW9ubHk7DQoJZm9udC1zaXplOjEwLjBwdDt9DQpAcGFnZSBXb3JkU2VjdGlvbjENCgl7c2l6 ZTo2MTIuMHB0IDc5Mi4wcHQ7DQoJbWFyZ2luOjcyLjBwdCA3Mi4wcHQgNzIuMHB0IDcyLjBwdDt9 DQpkaXYuV29yZFNlY3Rpb24xDQoJe3BhZ2U6V29yZFNlY3Rpb24xO30NCi0tPjwvc3R5bGU+PCEt LVtpZiBndGUgbXNvIDldPjx4bWw+DQo8bzpzaGFwZWRlZmF1bHRzIHY6ZXh0PSJlZGl0IiBzcGlk bWF4PSIxMDI2IiAvPg0KPC94bWw+PCFbZW5kaWZdLS0+PCEtLVtpZiBndGUgbXNvIDldPjx4bWw+ DQo8bzpzaGFwZWxheW91dCB2OmV4dD0iZWRpdCI+DQo8bzppZG1hcCB2OmV4dD0iZWRpdCIgZGF0 YT0iMSIgLz4NCjwvbzpzaGFwZWxheW91dD48L3htbD48IVtlbmRpZl0tLT4NCjwvaGVhZD4NCjxi b2R5IGxhbmc9IkVOLUdCIiBsaW5rPSIjMDU2M0MxIiB2bGluaz0iIzk1NEY3MiI+DQo8ZGl2IGNs YXNzPSJXb3JkU2VjdGlvbjEiPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb1BsYWluVGV4dCI+T24gRGVjIDI4LCAy MDE5LCBhdCAxOTowNiwgPHNwYW4gbGFuZz0iRU4tVVMiPlRvbnkgTGkgJmx0O3RvbnkxYXRob21l QGdtYWlsLmNvbSZndDsNCjwvc3Bhbj53cm90ZTo8bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJN c29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXNpemU6MTIuMHB0O21zby1mYXJlYXN0LWxhbmd1 YWdlOkVOLVVTIj48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8ZGl2Pg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9 Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+Jmd0OyBQb2xpY3kgaXMganVzdCBhbm90aGVyIG1lYW5zIGZvciBzb21lIHNt YWxsIGdyb3VwIG9mIHBlb3BsZSB0byB0ZWxsIG90aGVyIHBlb3BsZSB3aGF0DQo8bzpwPjwvbzpw PjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXNpemU6MTIuMHB0 Ij4mZ3Q7IDwvc3Bhbj50byBkby4gV2UgcmVqZWN0IHRoYXQgYXQgaXRzIHZlcnkgYmFzaXMuIFdl IGRvIG5vdCB3YW50IHBvbGljeS4gV2Ugd2FudCBjb29wZXJhdGlvbi48bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD4N CjwvZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+PC9w Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8ZGl2Pg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+Jmd0OyBUaGUgSW50ZXJuZXQg d29ya3MgYmVjYXVzZSB3ZSBwcm9wb3NlIHRoaW5ncyBhbmQgcmVhY2ggcm91Z2ggY29uc2Vuc3Vz IG9uIHRoZW0uIFRob3NlDQo8bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxz cGFuIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXNpemU6MTIuMHB0Ij4mZ3Q7IDwvc3Bhbj53aG8gZmVlbCB0aGF0IGl0 4oCZcyBhIEdvb2QgSWRlYSB0cnkgaXQgb3V0LiBJdCBnZXRzIHR3ZWFrZWQuIE90aGVycyBmZWVs IHRoYXQgaXTigJlzIGEgR29vZCBJZGVhDQo8bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29O b3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXNpemU6MTIuMHB0Ij4mZ3Q7IDwvc3Bhbj5hbmQgam9p biBpbi4gT3Igbm90LiBPbmx5IHdoZW4gZW5vdWdoIHBlb3BsZSBwYXJ0aWNpcGF0ZSBkb2VzIGl0 IGJlY29tZSBlZmZlY3RpdmUuPG86cD48L286cD48L3A+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjxkaXY+DQo8cCBjbGFz cz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj4NCjxwIGNs YXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPiZndDsgV2UgZG8gbm90IG5lZWQgcGVvcGxlIHRvIHRyeSB0byBzZXQg cG9saWN5LiBUaGV5IGFyZSBub3Qgd2VsY29tZS4gSWYgYSBncm91cCBpcyBjb25zdGl0dXRlZA0K PG86cD48L286cD48L3A+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1z aXplOjEyLjBwdCI+Jmd0OyA8L3NwYW4+dG8gZm9ybSBwb2xpY3ksIHdlIHdpbGwgbm90IGZvbGxv dyBpdC48bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPGRpdj4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwi PjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8ZGl2Pg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1h bCI+Jmd0OyBXZSBkbyBuZWVkIEdvb2QgSWRlYXMuIEZvbGtzIHdobyBoYXZlIHRoZW0gYXJlIHdl bGNvbWUgdG8gcHJvcG9zZSB0aGVtLjxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8ZGl2Pg0KPHAg Y2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PG86cD4mbmJzcDs8L286cD48L3A+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjxkaXY+DQo8 cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29O b3JtYWwiPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXNpemU6MTIuMHB0Ij5UaGF0IGlzIGlyb25pY2FsbHkg YSBwb2xpY3kgb2Ygc29ydHMsIG9uZSB3aGljaCBtYXkgb3IgbWF5IG5vdCBiZSBzaGFyZWQgYnkg b3RoZXJzLCBhbmQgd2hpY2ggbWF5IG9yIG1heSBub3QgYmUgcmVwcmVzZW50IGEgcm91Z2ggY29u c2Vuc3VzIHZpZXcgb2YgdGhvc2UgcGFydGljaXBhdGluZyBpbiB0aGUgSUVURi4mbmJzcDsgSSBu b3RlIGhvd2V2ZXIgdGhhdCwgZm9yDQogZXhhbXBsZSwgdGhlIG51bWJlciBvZiBwZW9wbGUgcGFy dGljaXBhdGluZyBkaXJlY3RseSBpbiB0aGUgSUdGIGlzIHNpZ25pZmljYW50bHkgbGFyZ2VyIHRo YW4gdGhhdCBwYXJ0aWNpcGF0aW5nIGluIHRoZSBJRVRGIGFuZCB0aGF0IHRoZSBmb3JtZXIgZ3Jv dXAgaXMgc2lnbmlmaWNhbnRseSBtb3JlIGRpdmVyc2UgaW4gbmF0dXJlLiZuYnNwOyBPbiB0aGF0 IGJhc2lzLCB5b3UgY291bGQsIHRvIHJlcGhyYXNlIHlvdXIgd29yZHMsIGFyZ3VlIHRoYXQgdGVj aG5pY2FsDQogZGVjaXNpb25zIHRha2VuIGJ5IHRoZSBJRVRGIGFyZSBqdXN0IGFub3RoZXIgbWVh bnMgZm9yIGEgc21hbGwsIHVuLWRpdmVyc2UgZ3JvdXAgb2YgcGVvcGxlIHRvIHRlbGwgb3RoZXIg cGVvcGxlIHdoYXQgdG8gZG8uJm5ic3A7IFlvdSBtYXkgZmluZCB0aGF0IHRob3NlIG90aGVyIGdy b3VwcyBhcmUganVzdCBhcyBhZGFtYW50IGluIOKAnHJlamVjdGluZyB0aGF0IGF0IGl0cyB2ZXJ5 IGJhc2lz4oCdLCBhbmQgdGhhdCB0aGV5IGhhdmUgYW4gZXF1YWxseSBzdHJvbmcNCiBleHBlY3Rh dGlvbiBvZiBjb29wZXJhdGlvbi48bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNv Tm9ybWFsIj48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1zaXplOjEyLjBwdCI+PG86cD4mbmJzcDs8L286cD48 L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZTox Mi4wcHQiPldoaWxzdCBpdCBtYXkgYmUgdW5jb21mb3J0YWJsZSBmb3Igc29tZSBwYXJ0aWNpcGFu dHMsIHNvbWUgYWN0aW9ucyB0YWtlbiBieSB0aGUgSUVURiAoYW5kIG90aGVyIGdyb3VwcyBsaWtl IElDQU5OKSBkbyBpbiBmYWN0IGhhdmUgcG9saWN5IGltcGxpY2F0aW9ucyBmb3Igb3RoZXJzLiZu YnNwOyBJIGJlbGlldmUgdGhhdCBpdCBpcyBmb29saXNoIHRvIGlnbm9yZSB0aGlzDQogYW5kIHBy ZXRlbmQgdGhhdCB0aGUgSUVURiBjYW4gb3BlcmF0ZSBpbiBhIGxpYmVydGFyaWFuIGJ1YmJsZSwg c29tZWhvdyBpbnN1bGF0ZWQgYm90aCBmcm9tIHRoZSByZXN1bHRzIG9mIGl0cyBvd24gYWN0aW9u cyBhbmQgZnJvbSB0aGUgdmlld3Mgb2Ygb3RoZXJzLiZuYnNwOw0KPG86cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+ PC9wPg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMi4wcHQi PjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxzcGFu IHN0eWxlPSJmb250LXNpemU6MTIuMHB0Ij48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8 cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj48Yj48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1zaXplOjEyLjBwdCI+QW5k cmV3IDxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvYj48L3A+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0K PC9odG1sPg0K --_000_LO2P265MB05733F3BE310F2B6DAFDA54FC2250LO2P265MB0573GBRP_-- From nobody Sat Dec 28 11:46:25 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEA62120124 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 11:46:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.888 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.888 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=viagenie-ca.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SB6g8FpSkWQr for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 11:46:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x82e.google.com (mail-qt1-x82e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E7CE120105 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 11:46:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x82e.google.com with SMTP id 5so27035346qtz.1 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 11:46:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=viagenie-ca.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ffEmpdZ8ib7FPy5GKx7XC2NeE2y2WNQB0onr+4pkEuo=; b=hLc0+6sF4ggsdh9Gzmgvkgq+OaVQfLWF5FM+inH0zZ7G2CAMw5TAx7t5RC5WzSblyX 63xFzF14E5cOIhSGgst5PvPYdfJw1HWwFch9qExAg68wkaz+KDyDR1yIsC6EsUbZejC9 IzjK/keW2K8vpNL855AXANqwu/CGpuCFSa1EJeuOU/MDSU/tybrsCtD9tf9raBH7A0Rz IJIisuUo5w1uwESsvmzit4BHz6o9j1MWH1UD9B6A18haSr1I3HUmL+NXXrlNmvHkxGin TYNCmu6LMur/ZwgK6qcVJ7iOggBBLZbH9QNBNjzP14KC5m1ADgjMhv4kNyIqA6Ff5cgn 6O7g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ffEmpdZ8ib7FPy5GKx7XC2NeE2y2WNQB0onr+4pkEuo=; b=B44miyFgtDemY1Kw/mIztHKAlUPDoW6O9oao4i9yeuxx/zYCE2YsW/ngEOKUlT5fUL zjih10GmjzYj2iiCujdXgHi8r759D5tZ9C2DWQPL6x0t4oK3XI4IoSeY6MY6FvOQsaf1 Y5ZJ2z3/FcPE3kOOoJ21NOw3Bm9Musm2uwwlPHCdO3uUjrqqEOPtLQ1MkVo/z1PqK7wR oWjTdbEJ+d+wYdgKhSO+Vog46Z//opQVf9VpJLixykxzyNzQMy82YK+yk6Lqo8LcB+oZ pINHNh9atftiHtQfDE+OHUUfCc3jYWRVRRLhzTvKDFZGGvaIC0+xnZIPr08uphEnv6I7 BqOA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUs1q8lKxZNlI8Am7stpdU2DKiJaEo9OfU9LU84lBOpLDP30CKZ c2XLzYJs1rGT8ygETZvhpVfZyQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzZzxoK/XNFSgWP9fADm3VXwgL+jR7b4E/GwPAgQ1FTskLQ3v+bXJYJbZRtnbPebk8yEggH/Q== X-Received: by 2002:aed:2ce4:: with SMTP id g91mr42517941qtd.352.1577562381351; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 11:46:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from [169.254.75.163] (modemcable016.82-162-184.mc.videotron.ca. [184.162.82.16]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m20sm10841942qkk.15.2019.12.28.11.46.20 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 28 Dec 2019 11:46:20 -0800 (PST) From: "Marc Blanchet" To: "Andrew Campling" Cc: architecture-discuss@iab.org Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 14:46:18 -0500 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.1r5671) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20191227130815.120fc690@elandnews.com> <2CA4CBDC-CAB0-4E02-BC4C-40DF67FB64BC@tony.li> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 19:46:25 -0000 On 28 Dec 2019, at 14:31, Andrew Campling wrote: > On Dec 28, 2019, at 19:06, Tony Li wrote: > >> Policy is just another means for some small group of people to tell >> other people what >> to do. We reject that at its very basis. We do not want policy. We >> want cooperation. > >> The Internet works because we propose things and reach rough >> consensus on them. Those >> who feel that it’s a Good Idea try it out. It gets tweaked. Others >> feel that it’s a Good Idea >> and join in. Or not. Only when enough people participate does it >> become effective. > >> We do not need people to try to set policy. They are not welcome. If >> a group is constituted >> to form policy, we will not follow it. > >> We do need Good Ideas. Folks who have them are welcome to propose >> them. > > > That is ironically a policy of sorts, one which may or may not be > shared by others, and which may or may not be represent a rough > consensus view of those participating in the IETF. I note however > that, for example, the number of people participating directly in the > IGF is significantly larger than that participating in the IETF and > that the former group is significantly more diverse in nature. On > that basis, you could, to rephrase your words, argue that technical > decisions taken by the IETF are just another means for a small, > un-diverse group of people to tell other people what to do. You may > find that those other groups are just as adamant in “rejecting that > at its very basis”, and that they have an equally strong expectation > of cooperation. > > Whilst it may be uncomfortable for some participants, some actions > taken by the IETF (and other groups like ICANN) do in fact have policy > implications for others. I believe that it is foolish to ignore this > and pretend that the IETF can operate in a libertarian bubble, somehow > insulated both from the results of its own actions and from the views > of others. IMHO, we are diverging pretty off the initial proposed charter. Well I can understand your point of view, I think the policy side, as you describe, should be outside the scope of the charter. Can we come back to technical content? Marc. > > > Andrew > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss From nobody Sat Dec 28 11:48:37 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83334120124 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 11:48:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wsXeT4DTEZr4 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 11:48:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf1-x433.google.com (mail-pf1-x433.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::433]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ACD3C120105 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 11:48:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf1-x433.google.com with SMTP id z16so16402960pfk.0 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 11:48:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=AXLZvVWeyHPmEv4kzL2Lt8VqHUcyYZBc3MFZlLsdFTY=; b=CgISkXSGsCsg+jP9XUDcEQUYDc/a3jeHypOSB60GXre4ZNoesg8hMEDR6jsBD7ORnV pZQlsus7IPVPKbRqg+CbZEXqlXImZhLX18flF1b4FC8LR43YNy0MDEowvSguUS/+WeIR lIRm+KHhNWjhCnNKBBJjeo0WX3U2f3Bp0aoZaMGSpsRMC7TDp7kJ2ZWFIq7ZRnfctE2O QHOVW8TShES8OW/2Q5PFqiTOnmY4pRqhTLbLCDIQxHzEUZTJ6Q5duebPWXIMbKUKirly Dh8AbJOt1BceGJTrnYyQdR5SzLayuxJsEgcqVjREvkAXUYaqgGkE4x5hd1sslKY3dUnC q1GA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=AXLZvVWeyHPmEv4kzL2Lt8VqHUcyYZBc3MFZlLsdFTY=; b=HJ0Oo6AwYeCMjRfQJKS9Nv6csII1cvJPue+A+eor4S9FaK1rs1oqmjIdSD3VfUZFV3 qcgrhWNX1ZOo+0GLdgOpsbgP3RZs7nXuuiA4nntnaZOd4TumS3gBczaHgMuRKp89QGWi rMWsLYTsQm/HlbE58mQ5dLQfO2nU4BWzbiBhkJveV4mkhBpMNPMO6pbrgk+rS7mfWoOV gitdmi6mrA7HY+BeO6hsQ94vKlnYKgTQZS3i0JCjcXZMiWg+f8yxrI8X8HbOpQjw4B8W n048qHjF3EbjpsntvM0+g72+7oAs6lG90bG2HmJKx65vfHMdmvnGaSuF+GbIWrZZnQQo xi6A== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUyAeN6YKPTIKptRfDhs2EUMsq06Js0sxAIKp/o+HT7yQr5Kt02 XFOjNVdlCz2BLaQtuYUUUtYf5nd7 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxEvvA/HLjR8LUN+cJPHTFOaHSsMtWTIVSSH84yn0XidK/lRJ0ah754HaumwaXX1NNVu/611g== X-Received: by 2002:a62:754b:: with SMTP id q72mr61290148pfc.102.1577562513826; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 11:48:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.30] (228.147.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.147.228]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i3sm44634841pfg.94.2019.12.28.11.48.31 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 28 Dec 2019 11:48:33 -0800 (PST) To: Andrew Campling , Stephane Bortzmeyer , Vittorio Bertola Cc: "architecture-discuss@iab.org" References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227102943.GA14015@nic.fr> <646cd584-60d1-a578-36e9-d4eca5d9ec93@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <1f81c9cb-3b88-4fdd-64cc-199ec08b93a0@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 08:48:30 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 19:48:36 -0000 Andrew, On 29-Dec-19 07:32, Andrew Campling wrote: ... > The lack of an effective, global policy making body for the internet is a problem that needs to be addressed as it is a significant gap. For the record, it's long been my opinion that the lack of an effective, global policy making body for the Internet is an excellent thing and one of the main reasons for the Internet's remarkable success**. Watching the WSIS process and the IGF over the years has only confirmed my opinion. In any case, I think we're agreed that this is not an IETF/IAB topic. ** To be clear, in my opinion there are many issues of great public interest that apply to every form of pervasive trans-border telecommunications, but they are not specific to the Internet and need to be addressed in a much more generic context. Regards, Brian Carpenter From nobody Sat Dec 28 12:07:16 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 056D3120105 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 12:07:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nomountain-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rifiZkGDTm_R for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 12:07:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf1-x42e.google.com (mail-pf1-x42e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE3B0120131 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 12:07:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf1-x42e.google.com with SMTP id w62so16398397pfw.8 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 12:07:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nomountain-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:to:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=0A4mUIzuNhR7rHKcwhCTrQl1XHz1+48Su3MXfSaNCWg=; b=JWgZrO4M9RBE61sO1waSEho4Cv8SEPM3VFoZuJC20mffVXiB9d60aElKPZOWzNEBGb IGMlHSQ+1c7VDhQfDy3TlpqEK6UbKjpcYcbFbVoiWB+Y75f+I1dGhZb8ynqZfQ3+3L2a 6Oge1TB9UTw4bWLqRo9M3k5BQMbgoxj/AdEvGPV2QdOcJ1PLElwFvpwFu+QKjcV9r2+f mywgGSYmlnvAC93ARkw1VktCHcid5pgYsx7+pC8EHZieYEN12jjCJudjJN5/T1YeF2a0 pVoqgWFkXyLOjKAkco1amiO6+olC8wlJYbGXox8TBYoHnZl3/g5qrbxYdzklMFyLxPRS r91A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=0A4mUIzuNhR7rHKcwhCTrQl1XHz1+48Su3MXfSaNCWg=; b=PAy1jfL/yHzyCuNkqcoU1JnyLLothNGPIOe0bKJe6bIcFcUC2IMjff3NvCC30Sx3AN KEvOZhY5fo59p58gmlNXCm1d/jf5olsePdhXMVXPU5YZQ9i0T94ZQZoAasqtTwvREPv5 8iSrRtciL9QrOMc/4qf3CAEIRt01X1+xzjnFW/xw1H093o9477IgjN6O21gWIm0OFq1d pF734MB38xT6oh6OC6c1+Rw4oHrZaNaCQXywzniuIt9JBcs3lgTaFlzN6DYA0bs1kFhC s0qMq0ImsncX4ErIqTzNSPy4RkTEzUUWvWlHNCjnnKaLSJHw7+rH6lIXeCyXE9Ct/JqM vPng== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUKY5qWLXGzE3ZJoujrzQ+oBxWn1iXFbkf6cO5f66iWOyt2oTxq eyV9S0MczR80GDfh19KrrZUAIYn+qw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzg5OLcAS+L4E7IdFXg4mWnzSs26GLlHDeE+54Tizcy1Cl5vD1IQny51+7uF+KqHWXdASp7Vg== X-Received: by 2002:a63:4702:: with SMTP id u2mr62271111pga.125.1577563632187; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 12:07:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from aspen.local ([63.140.75.168]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r6sm45449728pfh.91.2019.12.28.12.07.10 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 28 Dec 2019 12:07:11 -0800 (PST) To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227102943.GA14015@nic.fr> <1829722692.7358.1577443983540@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227134419.GA19644@nic.fr> From: Melinda Shore Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=melinda.shore@nomountain.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFppZ0gBEADFwxAi5szDOsM/6+CH4pbYTX7D+2gjLY4xEE7ydQcAF1WVLvcWXrpZM0GO /eA4N1PJ+OT5o8o9zVr7izMJkiLwcnQmxHdlYgZ9E+Cm8hDtMyEPBQwsYTkE5kpbGCmBAZ+W rHNHjvDg366uZQHzJejenB1/V4+rxMZs1Ak34Az2MVOz9Doecaiadpw3NpH3+1VXY/qilqnM lznINSANqD0ktxB/CVKjxl3/K5JnVnLp0h2kiUqt19hQPX2JmLcgaHzu+Ceb34/HZWhs0CiF c4auhQ3A9PcccOprQh6IGW1xo6RP3OEbeRFqeovgBWS+DIWzMIM0a3G2LDid0889QYwEv0zZ RPDCcF3g15mlkeUUmwKQ6eAagPyTqLtTiOKULqy9bQahyX2eqlySrF+HqlwGeNoG+A4l1Z2Y S7NCBLPIzUk2RuSKMBaKw86ORzvg2Advrw4bdv7kbDkArGzywky61SEB/q+GqR466mekXx2F O+m8RuoSnWrBsKvD/bhELHcneorIBleGz+VL7i5adU0rIydG3jPTfUeXoCZIeNx1LannxnAR ihKdh5+FE26WiiK6VmZWkvFjaPFwWGjvAsi82Pd9QgHhnG/XzINpXw/3HF4wtBTU5nIExMzC +FbJxCPq1kXpqSxJqg7hgUFvD5jUD9lpN5Br/S2dUgJj95bbPQARAQABtCxNZWxpbmRhIFNo b3JlIDxtZWxpbmRhLnNob3JlQG5vbW91bnRhaW4ubmV0PokCVAQTAQoAPgIbAwUJCWdTAAUL CQgHAwUVCgkICwUWAgMBAAIeAQIXgBYhBE9oLZMqF5b4IPI0wN+4kXKadtuPBQJaaXRaAAoJ EN+4kXKadtuPVioP/3nVzx33yjiEtqLKTEHwofnLT15CV5wAcGa0DTbqgiomVKzSRkkhbF3Z KIHYrnjVpTcYJuW+PmFSIjNizNVr+vvjNP6ptRqx5orWmK4EBe/B9mrpmIshxUwkYr46uwN4 h06xJS3KCzhfhSsnesH5vlGBkUod0+nQhbSLyLRpxmaKaeAl4dxFSBLU0vUJMLH8PXTZVNof 5Yo+ThqCzu1pwOkBQ8gST2J6zdy4PjU9ENQ9RLAamlAG/6rGHEKLFcnUpEg7Tcu1hSzAsqR8 kjX2Prpu4A9DyLCjTOvfOPQa8WjZy18ZdYOxuPxdrTazeCRVJIvYRflhBCZb744jhMyfAiSW eckwRBVSCnBuvWBJl9Ua1wp8SOUXXhgGI8WGvSkvul6kKSkHQKDggd4cojAhxWLfvmjxn5pz 0BNbvrEBGqgWwO1ZMuJpmv3P8YK5Aytsl85NZoMMUJIDxEQhBUgYz5QTQANBKPi8RsfOntho rhzXLqnPPQcE4Xf9O9XIyy077F0JoyiPx74Zsl1dTxmT73pezpfhKUQR7/QlmJ/FAADpb6SO V0tlgBtR6FAZToBYPDiss57AcKM1zzyJ7sHIZkxQelykYSet6hp2WGcwMXQveWqFMQ4fiGQx XNEPO+KZKNj+0sfINzSLP88O5TniM/l/JrjZZNT/lVAQDTdkCBGyuQINBFppZ0gBEACgZuM1 8ghzSuhuv+n0kWyWCeEWrx9Ey03EgFj5alBt55+OLv3dOsdyBHJxjtd0cZS1XaKZlgr1YZ0O pQNv/Wyy8uSW2BZ6hyG1SKN9/1MmfJLNnjjxaBQP4yaMwDdS3wX7hoWY19IpVPZHYDR35FAg SnG/s6we+IOITM1TJoOJs4+ygeK5dC7LfRoj+lkEHYrTcglYVuwsyK2FNz/sF8kJW1fEZHM6 6phSbhCvwbECWbb4eDGXbKZY92W1RTQ5U5td8DMLXyYipQphrcoeRXpb18DbOnE0WwIQV0yB gc/rTiUt/wVjasd1RrsCPBQC/uJ+ZHknvr2MoxIWBBsRtKYHG66aOL+nDV8X1miuF6j4cztv gmdqrwPHpAKVxhfwd/G4suNBunYw4/kAV9b2+eidX5em3NtPPNl/qNjsmEHQGn/5JKRHRvQs 0yuigXDhN2N0keoHrbGCE8kyA/d83L7E9d95hsf3JxpRzmeaTze+NpcIaX5uXdKOaCBjLtx1 tOrDA4XX7Y3nY+waKZYa3RvC7yulFJiKfYWDSriWeQXcXj06p8H6vF6sy9LeX9xRRjTI7qDH FxwuMQIKGqgufXtxu0pxxcMqXTEUPZnxUWUvuFjjYvEmtO92+Ot/NuotV8JvRPwg2OnYjMJo dU1X7hzEs8djtgZG+t3FEGK3i1EJUQARAQABiQI8BBgBCgAmFiEET2gtkyoXlvgg8jTA37iR cpp2248FAlppZ0gCGwwFCQlnUwAACgkQ37iRcpp2248krg/9H896KtAQCAV0RcV3QqZ75iY5 pCxpRyxAaR0PjE5jiYV5gUHPCKtr9UPZt4Bi+bzNLQ2KJK6Rx4XNf5lQWopEo1IxtOiFPjkr QIpNkYmFWyOGpKpSIDhgsJpswZqxPDLpo+59GNlSUG6v3sMAnx+Gvtvqczkvg6UPDN/JYK75 BIGoCGZMyor1B0EmRYj98LdwjT95dQZXjZvWBDeIx+NxUZKoA7AlR/xgsN3PHGq4SApMLL0R /qbiLIzUPnTPt5sBs0peflVvMrtgIMiZ9FdYPE+VWy5+X2AmeFg6Zl5W76HQUP6eYZQV5abZ +iiW9lY1TmqsqpTIDu/ZMy7pLknxV5E1vQy+wsihluDYydaQ4HWoNaY7QFb+x7TsvjJRi+cH 7By4jxohTWUuaukuMmT0eEaesWJSraAmxsffqJwDpsi0chZskuXjEm9gX6rY7MhzOZl7Vz9F +6MYTtTmT1mpkLAMWf1/JuKUCfnSAHRlDxUOAG6QSJoHWAGqYy3XiF9bN63yQ6xllloSbbMv P9VW0e/iFKMKEIvfIvAg0IrlPcfKAGuuT1axwIU7da/N7LOcXyDDSEUuSzvXL/BkWyjxuLzd LY6eTvC6ZT/fA5iS/PAUj0WbrWNrHQtQ5OY2+al2v6JdLu/w6IZJCBpTosOAOzzmre+31fk1 HKwqd9xRxC8= Message-ID: <295780f7-ebf3-79e4-0b2d-faaecfa0d984@nomountain.net> Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 11:07:08 -0900 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="1yQn5JnhwzON4gJrBBrDWafTi9Rvpf0Dk" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 20:07:16 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --1yQn5JnhwzON4gJrBBrDWafTi9Rvpf0Dk Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="BBzxRbvZYw4Ye3E2YGU8On6J1J2pUkhmx"; protected-headers="v1" From: Melinda Shore To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <295780f7-ebf3-79e4-0b2d-faaecfa0d984@nomountain.net> Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227102943.GA14015@nic.fr> <1829722692.7358.1577443983540@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227134419.GA19644@nic.fr> In-Reply-To: --BBzxRbvZYw4Ye3E2YGU8On6J1J2pUkhmx Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 12/28/19 9:48 AM, Randy Bush wrote: > not clear. a little chaos and need for open communication to coordinat= e > may be saving us from even worse centralisation and authoritarianism. I believe this is true. Anyway, this may be a good time for people to reread RFC 3935. The Internet Engineering Task Force is chartered to do engineering. We don't do governance of any body other than ourselves (and sometimes not even that). Melinda --=20 Melinda Shore melinda.shore@nomountain.net Software longa, hardware brevis --BBzxRbvZYw4Ye3E2YGU8On6J1J2pUkhmx-- --1yQn5JnhwzON4gJrBBrDWafTi9Rvpf0Dk Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEET2gtkyoXlvgg8jTA37iRcpp2248FAl4Hte0ACgkQ37iRcpp2 24+Azg//R55pCo8ioyLPMspKxV5hVsMLOkrXq3jW04Fi1265GqDP1wNl1mtj0obO 6/X/13RSjkjt72+Rp4HetOtDlIgWFG4hANNqVpspEOxf6hvR/46as4dbLPeQNTOH kkuMLR4hWn+HHvD6m6ShIkyPKK7M8BJovpRA1LXcjAKheVpwkNhRWInU5vBagj4T OeVxjNASY5Hx2I/MJ3oOGCkJAQVwAAwfs5I6U/sYjJaQBJrtPRus8U910n4eyhTP h7Ra0gqY+jMj+NbRSiz16tyhK/O2Ry+pqUo1SRxOVn+nO6pkSqXtEqRYVRu1GXsL yxIBWf+YiLc4MWL76pvyRoyBj6il2TaySL2SThS1qYK54V5oDcr1xgCdlZ1kA6I8 GpsHf7kCLv4j4Ix295+vY3h/vU2oWxxSt01n7wH6uk7EWx8SO2WGpFJkvP41bBr5 wLtPz9sg976gEhXhEBvJoAZaRcpiZ0No1frlS7Ry4lKk7Q0eKsQpDq/fBwKAuF9w Hw/7nBEylRo3G7n2dZ70a/tU+e5P1uegk+k0hnpoh9K2AxZaf7S3gVwR+ecZtW9H a+MOFy8+JDarsh6XT8RduXuDmrzSTrIDQxTE25UdoLPcdyPeWsOBlN2BXto9KgV6 S0WeOc2EPK9aUtaLRVLajrSm16H2eCrHnB2WCemvX+J0o/hNbj4= =4ylC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --1yQn5JnhwzON4gJrBBrDWafTi9Rvpf0Dk-- From nobody Sat Dec 28 13:07:30 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F342D12018B for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 13:07:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=frobbit.se Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w3IyVyyfF4Gn for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 13:07:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.frobbit.se (mail.frobbit.se [85.30.129.176]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8D5A5120105 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 13:07:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.165.72.241] (unknown [IPv6:2a02:80:3ffc:0:9d12:94ab:eb28:d7e8]) by mail.frobbit.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B912626BB0; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 22:07:21 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=frobbit.se; s=mail; t=1577567241; bh=dpM467IwFSPd0/KUDi8rMRBMJvY0lhoNKN8Gg6IVBOk=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=hujV57RU7gBvmnXBUrHVNZ3fJfoAgncqNa8/WDfPB6fbtlrOpa+kUoy95HWQrIA6B p3o+uBxX2MWc9Jjj0cSHF/AQVBzLhlVdJWm2PlDQl943C4e0xCRrLnmzwtcpMPv5B0 M3ZTDP3993cG+S27bENyU8fEFa+M2CefJNxsws0g= From: "Patrik =?utf-8?b?RsOkbHRzdHLDtm0=?=" To: "Andrew Campling" Cc: tony.li@tony.li, architecture-discuss@iab.org, "S Moonesamy" Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 22:07:20 +0100 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.1r5671) Message-ID: <304321FD-CB1A-45FE-B67D-0C8ABA6F0BF5@frobbit.se> In-Reply-To: References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20191227130815.120fc690@elandnews.com> <2CA4CBDC-CAB0-4E02-BC4C-40DF67FB64BC@tony.li> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=_MailMate_1AC959DC-85E6-485D-8609-497C6CE664DE_="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 21:07:29 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 3156 and 4880). --=_MailMate_1AC959DC-85E6-485D-8609-497C6CE664DE_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 28 Dec 2019, at 20:31, Andrew Campling wrote: > Whilst it may be uncomfortable for some participants, some actions take= n by the IETF (and other groups like ICANN) do in fact have policy implic= ations for others.=C2=A0 I believe that it is foolish to ignore this and = pretend that the IETF can operate in a libertarian bubble, somehow insula= ted both from the results of its own actions and from the views of others= =2E=C2=A0 You should be careful when comparing results of the ICANN process that en= ds up in contractual agreements, where ICANN the organisation is one of t= he signatories, with the result of IETF process, where the contracted par= ties do choose to reference the IETF products (the RFCs). I am pretty sure participants in the IETF are aware of the trust IETF has= , but on the other hand, participants also know that whatever is produced= can also be ignored. ICANN, ITU and many other processes are different. Very different. Patrik --=_MailMate_1AC959DC-85E6-485D-8609-497C6CE664DE_= Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iG0EARECAC0WIQRUH/cJI8i4DDUU3qWsxpsaC4jXzQUCXgfECA8ccGFmQGZyb2Ji aXQuc2UACgkQrMabGguI181d4QCeN/9Z7XMO41QYpdL3s9mMWHXcruMAn0jIpdRg /CT8dVDgzqWiEw35oFzG =uDWz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=_MailMate_1AC959DC-85E6-485D-8609-497C6CE664DE_=-- From nobody Sat Dec 28 15:45:23 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29F731200B6 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 15:45:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k7wP0d8lf49r for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 15:45:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x333.google.com (mail-ot1-x333.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::333]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F00B9120018 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 15:45:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x333.google.com with SMTP id k8so24187577otl.13 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 15:45:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Wi25T8xCvrf33LL/ZnZXrfhe6cGZgLWSQdAQfEryFYY=; b=bf0QvfGp3lYVrAPwCeNcq5ee84yFss16ErqX0jZyHdCSAkR9JkPEW9BcwibKWIXCpn k7o9eX+6MLn6hb5Sp2ZD7Fsr9+zWyQ04i7WUTmb4AkKtQC6e9i7EG+G65Bo/g1seARGl RE48F2XzqYDNDgjplA474DtzHtYZoky2R5D/Tm+aOVPC5sTJ6e50uaLLRjou4UvnBDZM wOQsKg3+/Z0QaiRHeclVFKEOjslipb2eLlsUKArzDLQvf/tUzf1RHmfohL2gpSfZ3wDJ BSEEZqnJw+0Mr6Y86pFkxHE8CzQOkS+8NcYAoq/rcET7auhjF6IuBCPLTu45LJ51jm5X MFOw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=Wi25T8xCvrf33LL/ZnZXrfhe6cGZgLWSQdAQfEryFYY=; b=JZ9c9/M6Ysye4GMnuvKSTU3skkbNn8uisxoMze9VGdbTyZVBdHTV8i3dQStDk3PL45 NLwEqarW2DkvKLD4aV5salkb9+rnxC5YQoLjVwRCWPyzYy3rVkb6+h/oNpIPQwBFpJnH J2FmCQiuHfyjDgRqLquU/Eq/D3nhqt/Duo9CpP1udhIvE10KCIrpiydyRE46RJsr1Hq6 aEBvFYk7m/kd//gpUr19CJEXibM2GFmqHeU6KUyHZH6cBo0OGBieaiW1JczetRQhzlkI bLwuWrSTha9j4L/7Tsr1MELRErkDX8+Duo/e9/NyDrzmJRzs+jwgg+kYGX+uoAIoFNNM lcaw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV8fWfDoL2CNV0hOKmndgjqSy56iO6PAyVXODWK1gDqSELABJNh /q5UBrRPuxPmT8ltnWcfyg+hDMP3rWS8EMAyV7SqTq0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxrjXLjGqRmK3D28Mbz7aeOgSMP2dzxPfwo6ElL++BWo/W6GDGumg+jtdnAbTqEmQE+BMplvU/BLaVsB5VXrJs= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:53c4:: with SMTP id i4mr54349722oth.48.1577576717988; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 15:45:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20191227130815.120fc690@elandnews.com> <2CA4CBDC-CAB0-4E02-BC4C-40DF67FB64BC@tony.li> <304321FD-CB1A-45FE-B67D-0C8ABA6F0BF5@frobbit.se> In-Reply-To: <304321FD-CB1A-45FE-B67D-0C8ABA6F0BF5@frobbit.se> From: Scott Brim Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 18:44:59 -0500 Message-ID: To: architecture-discuss@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e1b7db059acc332d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 23:45:21 -0000 --000000000000e1b7db059acc332d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Dec 28, 2019 at 4:07 PM Patrik F=C3=A4ltstr=C3=B6m wrote: > ICANN, ITU and many other processes are different. Very different. > First of all, yes -- and the ITU-T process attracts certain kinds of people and certain kinds of goals, just as the IETF and ICANN do. This -- the character of other organizations -- needs to be taken into account when deciding whether the IETF can cede all policy decisions to others. Second, historically the wiretap discussions were very significant in that the IETF explicitly made a policy decision in the form of an engineering decision. At least when I was active I believe the IETF considered policy issues all the time, if only implicitly. Scott --000000000000e1b7db059acc332d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sat, Dec 28, 2019 at 4:07 PM Patrik F=C3=A4ltstr=C3=B6m <paf=3D40frobbit.se@dmarc.ietf.org>= ; wrote:
ICANN, ITU and many other processes are different. V= ery different.

First of all, yes -- and t= he ITU-T process attracts certain kinds of people and certain kinds of goal= s, just as the IETF and ICANN do. This -- the character of other organizati= ons -- needs to be taken into account when deciding whether the IETF can ce= de all policy decisions to others.

Second, historical= ly the wiretap discussions were very significant in that the IETF explicitl= y made a policy decision in the form of an engineering decision. At least w= hen I was active I believe the IETF considered policy issues all the time, = if only implicitly.=C2=A0

Scott

--000000000000e1b7db059acc332d-- From nobody Sat Dec 28 17:24:34 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E089D1200E7 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 17:24:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=elandsys.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZC1kLvLbq1Pc for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 17:24:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.elandsys.com (mx.elandsys.com [162.213.2.210]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50B1F1200CE for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 17:24:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from DESKTOP-K6V9C2L.elandsys.com ([102.116.57.14]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.15.2/8.14.5) with ESMTPSA id xBT1OFd3006739 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 28 Dec 2019 17:24:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1577582668; x=1577669068; i=@elandsys.com; bh=hDghpy+skfgWd5iGaabYX4zuoODvrF4V37fO7NGSUKI=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:References; b=gvx4vEYi751MmjYfDzQaFBqMWnt/aUElyFOOb8z9Z455DksBHZPxBMX0Qlf9GvF27 347LqEER7Xd6VYdQmVwts9oPB6t35cA/w+s5H83cQ4Tb4cwBRYwQZl66vTZ/bosG2B bDMQanF9YI+35Rly+zEh2U4etNHb9KU3TQWwEMf8= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20191228155853.07efc238@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2019 17:19:29 -0800 To: Andrew Campling , architecture-discuss@iab.org From: S Moonesamy References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20191227130815.120fc690@elandnews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 01:24:33 -0000 Hi Andrew, At 10:57 AM 28-12-2019, Andrew Campling wrote: >To clarify, I am not advocating that the IAB or IETF addresses >policy considerations, quite the reverse: I believe that policy >considerations would be better addressed elsewhere and that the >technical requirements arising from these are subsequently addressed >by the IETF and other bodies as appropriate. The present situation, >where the IETF maintains that it does not address policy >considerations but, lacking guidance from a properly constituted and >qualified body, nevertheless makes technical decisions that are >based on inferred policy positions is unsatisfactory. Thank you for the clarification. There are non-technical considerations for some IAB decisions. There was, for example, a statement about to free flow of information and jurisdiction, and stakeholders. One of the points in that statement is that, in some cases, policy or business expertise is necessary. The free flow of information was a topic of discussion in the IGF. It might be difficult to gain agreement on whether that topic is related to the proposed IAB programme. Regards, S. Moonesamy From nobody Sat Dec 28 23:15:50 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2407C12004E for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 23:15:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=frobbit.se Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BhfHDF2xWwUe for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 23:15:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.frobbit.se (mail.frobbit.se [85.30.129.176]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2011E1200A1 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 23:15:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.165.72.241] (unknown [IPv6:2a02:80:3ffc:0:61ce:2bc8:31cc:8fd]) by mail.frobbit.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C9C3422D12; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 08:15:43 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=frobbit.se; s=mail; t=1577603743; bh=7zdkkm58mDTNXj5pJAqFEpGDdUW2bHb4YL2ylWoIXgQ=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=m0DslAIlzRGBsjbfE9nl5L5XJeSJv+Tw3OGMnBXeJrH6soM377oczd9hg2xSQHC1A D3TETCklvKJ3I0CUHV5TWdevTcfrhZM3uZ1t+HDc2NPwkgw22DMiJUT5QzSIbiWW8p 0VSkg2vEfZSLQHJXeZycMWq6nvNdRt//GVjIQ1Gw= From: "Patrik =?utf-8?b?RsOkbHRzdHLDtm0=?=" To: "Scott Brim" Cc: architecture-discuss@iab.org Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 08:15:42 +0100 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.1r5671) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20191227130815.120fc690@elandnews.com> <2CA4CBDC-CAB0-4E02-BC4C-40DF67FB64BC@tony.li> <304321FD-CB1A-45FE-B67D-0C8ABA6F0BF5@frobbit.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=_MailMate_0FFA668C-5D71-432F-8824-64FB136E3465_="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 07:15:48 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 3156 and 4880). --=_MailMate_0FFA668C-5D71-432F-8824-64FB136E3465_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 29 Dec 2019, at 0:44, Scott Brim wrote: > On Sat, Dec 28, 2019 at 4:07 PM Patrik F=C3=A4ltstr=C3=B6m 40frobbit.se@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > >> ICANN, ITU and many other processes are different. Very different. >> > > First of all, yes -- and the ITU-T process attracts certain kinds of pe= ople and certain kinds of goals, just as the IETF and ICANN do. This -- t= he character of other organizations -- needs to be taken into account whe= n deciding whether the IETF can cede all policy decisions to others. > > Second, historically the wiretap discussions were very significant in t= hat the IETF explicitly made a policy decision in the form of an engineer= ing decision. At least when I was active I believe the IETF considered po= licy issues all the time, if only implicitly. Correct Scott, but I was more thinking of the fact ITU-T results might bi= nd the members (the member States) by treaties, which implies the members= do not have any choice but implement the outcomes. Just like ICANN outco= mes are binding for the contracted parties in many cases. IETF do not have such arrangements. We implement if we like what IETF pro= duce. Patrik --=_MailMate_0FFA668C-5D71-432F-8824-64FB136E3465_= Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iG0EARECAC0WIQRUH/cJI8i4DDUU3qWsxpsaC4jXzQUCXghSng8ccGFmQGZyb2Ji aXQuc2UACgkQrMabGguI180k+gCeLNSDYFqCA28POENN95A/rBBhnAAAn1hPhDV5 rJBst7XPYtk1/uJMIiSX =TVIX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=_MailMate_0FFA668C-5D71-432F-8824-64FB136E3465_=-- From nobody Sat Dec 28 23:51:18 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E438120090 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 23:51:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=rad365.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hUnkoq6Kllx1 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 23:51:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR04-DB3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr60041.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.6.41]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 60E5912004E for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2019 23:51:14 -0800 (PST) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=NGqVo7Y1CF52hzA1h+fmNcA74lSwjTXtgeMfv7FJbXBnUTsy8jfVgrm4sEApqGanM6WUAcLmak9pzpHxT2hdeWpiM27zncd/5078Qy22vaUT3hd9+8m0hhrcWMFqmckELnMSNG6E4NqHqXUUIMnRfHWoUE0m/LHpHQeFXi/Pstr+8AEsGxiQcWvtDR6hLGuBomBTovBbvzi5Ujxjt5lG2nqYmhST8SNAk/tyFebNWiT0nlgy69gWZqabr+9GqUnEiUXIdbR4h/qHXN7d2CTummBv+IaAlP1PzSnNdI7tg5HrMY7PfP3A38lc634kEpm31MF0mNVH534LH5PnJiZFIw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=LdNmMqR88Jc9cq4FYShSW3aU1Y4D3Np9NXmoqDLL7vY=; b=j5tmhP/ohVTlFNywgHUuDkM/q/yiqyqrv4CB/KZkwFp35NayqAZtE1CQ/dB9IXqeRlfFJ1mBy49fhsVV1IM05CTNFShA9kdejKEG7fdpStZcX+TFzmwaY117xNUN9eqUYkdKBdJ+Q4jRHiv/z7jTjjhEtAhDkEzavugCJntdNRyLVWO+KnM4gOldX61MjavOeWkeumfHR8xZP4nHEVdaPRfe/bWkxFlL9u3qrtBgBhDqKKj8II1KbqW8w9qSlxGAsoBWv5yzlrs0kCUDzT8oE7YfeP4dMRTq6g3H4PNlmWlvzwbov+whv2LUFk28K2uFRJcPLEwMSGx76w27vu17kQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=rad.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=rad.com; dkim=pass header.d=rad.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rad365.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-rad365-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=LdNmMqR88Jc9cq4FYShSW3aU1Y4D3Np9NXmoqDLL7vY=; b=cbf4QbXjUCogepqmGcohwwBaqkMyWagi5YVVaCTJ4bsV+ffoXotT9MWnpLLu72z5ksElLRMTC8lpIl8Q5UzIoqMOuCOlChXRjMCiCYgX5LKLMona7XCfUyy/x5s249hRmT9PxZ2a0cWNKgwo/PBMdG/LefSubW6xcAxDvIksGiw= Received: from AM6PR03MB5046.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (20.178.89.202) by AM6PR03MB5798.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.255.123.79) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2581.11; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 07:51:11 +0000 Received: from AM6PR03MB5046.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::ad07:d39:5019:51a9]) by AM6PR03MB5046.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::ad07:d39:5019:51a9%3]) with mapi id 15.20.2581.007; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 07:51:11 +0000 From: Yaakov Stein To: =?utf-8?B?UGF0cmlrIEbDpGx0c3Ryw7Zt?= , Scott Brim CC: "architecture-discuss@iab.org" Thread-Topic: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience Thread-Index: AQHVucpaNl5YNG2lAUuXjudeP7YMxKfJAJuAgAAlMoCABV+2CIABaCCAgAACgACAAAccAIAAGsEAgAAsDICAAH3uAIAACOZQ Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 07:51:11 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20191227130815.120fc690@elandnews.com> <2CA4CBDC-CAB0-4E02-BC4C-40DF67FB64BC@tony.li> <304321FD-CB1A-45FE-B67D-0C8ABA6F0BF5@frobbit.se> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=yaakov_s@rad.com; x-originating-ip: [82.166.71.122] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 15137fbd-02c6-4351-b9ec-08d78c33df73 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM6PR03MB5798: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:7219; x-forefront-prvs: 0266491E90 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(4636009)(396003)(39850400004)(376002)(346002)(136003)(366004)(199004)(189003)(52536014)(7696005)(76116006)(4326008)(55016002)(2906002)(316002)(110136005)(9686003)(5660300002)(8936002)(186003)(81156014)(81166006)(478600001)(8676002)(66446008)(64756008)(6506007)(4744005)(71200400001)(86362001)(26005)(66556008)(33656002)(66946007)(66476007); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:AM6PR03MB5798; H:AM6PR03MB5046.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: rad.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: B32Sl2lTCJJgooYPSNcJ8YQgXkSxfWleoabL/tKSOXLEFFFMh+I4wFjOXLJbpnDMfuUkre8thLcyE2BFR2VeLCM6PtFickalxly6B7++vdRfQOwb+MU6kAC6LZ3cb4MVuSud7MIGLoMNDXxvt9YqX4hBhYwfny4UxTLHXXqiIDgCzHd2tlbpKTatYddbk+CiJga/DYBJosChFyQGe9xss2UqbYib8z2go/MCFKmVpOv+mT24hJjQEsRmda6291zA62QHFgysF2Cnzpoo7KGabTwEAzD4rsyng8jpZ5KaPzUo3g+KTI+0E4KHaj38gfvIDDqIg4aNzxNE/LXPeF6yn+Gn/xHFCrp4q+X/mzZ6TY5hHDvybA7ok+JN0fIUQOJNh2gMITdAoJLrXTMvGFomZ05tPfjfnsb2mleZ19xr32EfCFfzDXS5Mb1Bb87qDODK x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: rad.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 15137fbd-02c6-4351-b9ec-08d78c33df73 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 29 Dec 2019 07:51:11.4709 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f9047108-cc2c-4e48-97a3-43fad1b3bf9d X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: YrEHITsBc0Ws6WVe3E5p0ZRPjTHmCMjZQyHRj/VxbZq6zbRd6/kXDoq5YF7rToS4Efjr/a9cf1I9rA/0Vr0J+A== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM6PR03MB5798 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 07:51:17 -0000 Q29ycmVjdCBTY290dCwgYnV0IEkgd2FzIG1vcmUgdGhpbmtpbmcgb2YgdGhlIGZhY3QgSVRVLVQg cmVzdWx0cyBtaWdodCBiaW5kIHRoZSBtZW1iZXJzICh0aGUgbWVtYmVyIFN0YXRlcykgYnkgdHJl YXRpZXMsIHdoaWNoIGltcGxpZXMgdGhlIG1lbWJlcnMgZG8gbm90IGhhdmUgYW55IGNob2ljZSBi dXQgaW1wbGVtZW50IHRoZSBvdXRjb21lcy4gSnVzdCBsaWtlIElDQU5OIG91dGNvbWVzIGFyZSBi aW5kaW5nIGZvciB0aGUgY29udHJhY3RlZCBwYXJ0aWVzIGluIG1hbnkgY2FzZXMuDQoNCk5vLCBh bG1vc3QgYWxsIElUVS1UIHJlc3VsdHMgYXJlIGNhbGxlZCAiUmVjb21tZW5kYXRpb25zIiBiZWNh dXNlIHRoZXkgYXJlIHByZWNpc2VseSB0aGF0Lg0KVGhleSBkbyBub3QgYmluZCBtZW1iZXJzIHVu bGVzcyB0aGUgbWVtYmVyIGFkb3B0cyB0aGVtIGludG8gaXRzIG93biBuYXRpb25hbCBsZWdpc2xh dGlvbi4NCg0KWShKKVMNCg== From nobody Sun Dec 29 00:00:03 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 101A5120180 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 00:00:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=frobbit.se Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LyIB7ibp93FH for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 00:00:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.frobbit.se (mail.frobbit.se [IPv6:2a02:80:3ffe::176]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 16F5C12004E for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 00:00:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.165.72.241] (unknown [IPv6:2a02:80:3ffc:0:61ce:2bc8:31cc:8fd]) by mail.frobbit.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4301C246A6; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 08:59:58 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=frobbit.se; s=mail; t=1577606398; bh=w6YiSwi9BHT7UY0kHnw2+fWntZ2U3HyEAhldNW0Qwpk=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=CgPN7H06ZAuViVSWplQ/1jGELBMSqUIhFZgfTd4g8wbYdryzbuOLTvDSdQMKc5jw9 KU9VJ1VOYc4DQD/64XaRpNdSif0fdBBd+XldlDONUEjDX1A7sLP8ken90+mxlvu1xL YHZ7w3x8+0OZdgiIhKDQIZKCDPYOb+MkLU1R1yFk= From: "Patrik =?utf-8?b?RsOkbHRzdHLDtm0=?=" To: "Yaakov Stein" Cc: "Scott Brim" , architecture-discuss@iab.org Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 08:59:56 +0100 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.1r5671) Message-ID: <372F0388-01BD-4173-AEF9-15AF42FE36CE@frobbit.se> In-Reply-To: References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20191227130815.120fc690@elandnews.com> <2CA4CBDC-CAB0-4E02-BC4C-40DF67FB64BC@tony.li> <304321FD-CB1A-45FE-B67D-0C8ABA6F0BF5@frobbit.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=_MailMate_7E545D3B-0289-4EDD-B84E-31BB7EE0D6D8_="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 08:00:02 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 3156 and 4880). --=_MailMate_7E545D3B-0289-4EDD-B84E-31BB7EE0D6D8_= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 29 Dec 2019, at 8:51, Yaakov Stein wrote: >> Correct Scott, but I was more thinking of the fact ITU-T results might= bind the members (the member States) by treaties, which implies the memb= ers do not have any choice but implement the outcomes. Just like ICANN ou= tcomes are binding for the contracted parties in many cases. > > No, almost all ITU-T results are called "Recommendations" because they = are precisely that. > They do not bind members unless the member adopts them into its own nat= ional legislation. Yakov, I did write "might", and you point out exactly what members of ITU= have to fight around OR ELSE it ends up being binding. Which is easier o= r harder depending on what is written in the treaties (and why there is s= uch a fight at WCIT). Patrik --=_MailMate_7E545D3B-0289-4EDD-B84E-31BB7EE0D6D8_= Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iG0EARECAC0WIQRUH/cJI8i4DDUU3qWsxpsaC4jXzQUCXghc/A8ccGFmQGZyb2Ji aXQuc2UACgkQrMabGguI183s5gCfbnN2g/1dNc07cSp2Z4ISZNU8MIcAn32tHoqA w0JvMa8BrsUECMahm0jL =qyZL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=_MailMate_7E545D3B-0289-4EDD-B84E-31BB7EE0D6D8_=-- From nobody Sun Dec 29 01:43:12 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8345012004E for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 01:43:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.65 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.65 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aobs0qA1LwLM for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 01:43:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from ayla.bortzmeyer.org (ayla.bortzmeyer.org [92.243.4.211]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8CBB912002F for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 01:43:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by ayla.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id D2B3BA029B; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 10:43:06 +0100 (CET) Received: by mail.sources.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B0297C98F2; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 10:39:10 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 10:39:10 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Andrew Campling Cc: architecture-discuss@iab.org Message-ID: <20191229093910.GA20055@sources.org> References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227102943.GA14015@nic.fr> <646cd584-60d1-a578-36e9-d4eca5d9ec93@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 10.2 X-Charlie: Je suis Charlie User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 09:43:11 -0000 On Sat, Dec 28, 2019 at 06:32:54PM +0000, Andrew Campling wrote a message of 229 lines which said: > The lack of an effective, global policy making body for the internet > is a problem that needs to be addressed as it is a significant gap. This statement is questionable. As noted by Randy Bush and Brian Carpenter, such a body would have an extraordinary power (in the past, even the worst dictator had a power limited to the borders of the country), and then we would have to think about how to limit and control that power. > I agree with Vittorio’s points above, believe that the IETF and > other bodies ignore this at their peril. I don't think that IETF ignore there are political consequences to our choices (see RFC 8280). > The IETF is many things, it is not however especially diverse by > most accepted definitions of the term. I don't know if there is a generally accepted definition. Some people see diversity as a matter of skin color, some as a matter of political opinions, or social class. Seeing political discussions inside IETF (for instance about DoH…), it seems there are many very different opinions. > I note that there is a large body of evidence that shows that > organisations of all types perform better when they embrace > diversity, and conversely that organisations that do not are doomed > to underperformance. As they say on Wikipedia, "references needed". Anyway, things like the place of women are not a matter of efficiency but of justice. I don't care if organisations with more women are "more efficient" (for some organisations like the NSA, I wish there were less efficient…), because discrimination on the basis of gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc, is wrong, period. It does not matter if it is efficient or not. > I welcome It may indeed be harder (but by no means impossible) to > reach consensus It all depends on the layer (as in the layer model). At a high-level, we have a consensus, for instance in the universal declaration of human rights. At a lower level, when it comes to more concrete rules, I don't think we can have a consensus between a all humans on earth. > This lack of a clearly articulated (and tested) policy position on > which to build a technical solution is a problem. We have many RFC about our political choices, RFC 8280 provides a good list. From nobody Sun Dec 29 01:48:12 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E91012004E for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 01:48:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.65 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.65 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e2D7-gOK7pzi for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 01:48:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from ayla.bortzmeyer.org (ayla.bortzmeyer.org [IPv6:2001:4b98:dc0:41:216:3eff:fe27:3d3f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 43EC112002F for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 01:48:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by ayla.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id 25473A029B; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 10:48:06 +0100 (CET) Received: by mail.sources.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 087D9C98F2; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 10:43:21 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 10:43:21 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Andrew Campling Cc: architecture-discuss@iab.org Message-ID: <20191229094321.GB20055@sources.org> References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20191227130815.120fc690@elandnews.com> <2CA4CBDC-CAB0-4E02-BC4C-40DF67FB64BC@tony.li> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 10.2 X-Charlie: Je suis Charlie User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 09:48:11 -0000 On Sat, Dec 28, 2019 at 07:31:34PM +0000, Andrew Campling wrote a message of 167 lines which said: > I note however that, for example, the number of people participating > directly in the IGF is significantly larger than that participating > in the IETF and that the former group is significantly more diverse > in nature. Is this based on actual surveys about participants? Such a survey could be interesting. Of course, many things have to be taken into account. For instance, many people in the IGF are just spectactors, paid to attend. But the biggest difference is that the IETF produces things, good or bad (the RFC) while the IGF produces nothing. If it tried, it would explode. > I believe that it is foolish to ignore this and pretend that the > IETF can operate in a libertarian bubble, I don't think that all IETF participants qualify themselves as "libertarian". I certainly don't. From nobody Sun Dec 29 03:18:26 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18D09120033 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 03:18:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=frobbit.se Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CGO-EywUSBE2 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 03:18:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.frobbit.se (mail.frobbit.se [85.30.129.176]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 793F712001E for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 03:18:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.165.72.241] (unknown [IPv6:2a02:80:3ffc:0:61ce:2bc8:31cc:8fd]) by mail.frobbit.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 95C4826B22; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 12:18:20 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=frobbit.se; s=mail; t=1577618300; bh=HbXMFKb7T71DS6r9Wi+r9TUgv+aV6aQWpQJcbZGfE5k=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=De9XH4lJdJ5skpTuB0/8++teaHircqhT0rvodfarL5bjxcjHgXaNpMV00dNAPUVhC o7TumwxSCNcW9aV1nb2m60XfS/VaS3Evpcyc7HXeVRlU/U38a1h1/OKk4zzQ3vDnkD PIBVBWS3e6BGQohAF4lNNJblV2QUK2X7dFELeL3w= From: "Patrik =?utf-8?b?RsOkbHRzdHLDtm0=?=" To: "Stephane Bortzmeyer" Cc: "Andrew Campling" , architecture-discuss@iab.org Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 12:18:19 +0100 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.1r5671) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20191229093910.GA20055@sources.org> References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227102943.GA14015@nic.fr> <646cd584-60d1-a578-36e9-d4eca5d9ec93@gmail.com> <20191229093910.GA20055@sources.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=_MailMate_9EAF3B49-CE0C-4A59-BD73-48AF323CED05_="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 11:18:25 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 3156 and 4880). --=_MailMate_9EAF3B49-CE0C-4A59-BD73-48AF323CED05_= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 29 Dec 2019, at 10:39, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > On Sat, Dec 28, 2019 at 06:32:54PM +0000, > Andrew Campling wrote > a message of 229 lines which said: > >> The lack of an effective, global policy making body for the internet >> is a problem that needs to be addressed as it is a significant gap. > > This statement is questionable. As noted by Randy Bush and Brian Carpen= ter, such a body would have an extraordinary power (in the past, even the= worst dictator had a power limited to the borders of the country), and t= hen we would have to think about how to limit and control that power. And more importantly, IF there is a governance body, there must by defini= tion be something that is to be governed. I have hard time understanding what that could be. Coordination is something completely different, and we should aim towards= continuing the effective coordination we have done so far. Patrik --=_MailMate_9EAF3B49-CE0C-4A59-BD73-48AF323CED05_= Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iG0EARECAC0WIQRUH/cJI8i4DDUU3qWsxpsaC4jXzQUCXgiLew8ccGFmQGZyb2Ji aXQuc2UACgkQrMabGguI183chgCfXG6vCKpkQoFYicdkruF3KKKgg3EAoJQ6AKNP UesDlM9cVbDvD8CBcKUh =rSye -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=_MailMate_9EAF3B49-CE0C-4A59-BD73-48AF323CED05_=-- From nobody Sun Dec 29 05:27:33 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E720E1200EF for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 05:27:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mbFRQvalwy1B for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 05:27:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 16789120044 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 05:27:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.110.112]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1ilYbQ-0001sW-90 for architecture-discuss@ietf.org; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 14:27:28 +0100 To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227102943.GA14015@nic.fr> <1829722692.7358.1577443983540@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227134419.GA19644@nic.fr> <295780f7-ebf3-79e4-0b2d-faaecfa0d984@nomountain.net> From: Niels ten Oever Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=lists@digitaldissidents.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFgpcR0BEACnfvNwTMlN+pyZT0AFYhWqxG3N4AoPIeNfbxLQH7dk8ZL7Ls05xtORfnu9 ovoaRrZpDufkMviUFidNYePbQNdgf63vWVgwpQR7utluwWraetcmZOu6tayJuyBK2b6d2Z23 MJAQxfa2/GMlN3QkvobaoyKtgbc8rOCgNla7WwkgtiVJ89xbAUHXPFpKWZluVRjaFh4p5C5r 7E5OvUiEGLQ5Cn2ir2PGIyIVqjB+hLTyaI6dIGCz2jtL0RATjmsmYUX7UkU/pz8MPPC2BJ5P KU9pdXMRBhAStxcph8vCo2ze9xSi3+1/5A2ULVtvO4s0hZ+exbTfMxMg3H5CCRFEEJXlQEXa Cd0ZHvqcv5xq8n9w/Ccd0CqYWATIwyP8Jlzd+BY3QGTWnWlgoAbs3Guh/pFYhEFNuuAF5Jk1 k5OlNGsRE/LQJmbT5SE7AtLJLbWewcHlEyIH+K6J8uVa4ExLXmRy+eRkFaxjGy3fLlUpy1Ee 1kU7VsQ/TZ8g8ujsMzxqsdB6y0TD/kVlWaDqPL6F+b+pm3lAuCBGWM1YZROTG58R6pD7sNVm i0ift4dIttAsg+2KoShm9A8kQ3tACXZDgNPC0l7VOqnVayjnF0RmjGeiX7PjOcLQCZ9a5wAH 5mrXMaKvfszqAVkP9HSrk1QVZOipF6vEimL43Czy7Rp1aUaUwwARAQABtC1OaWVscyB0ZW4g T2V2ZXIgPGxpc3RzQGRpZ2l0YWxkaXNzaWRlbnRzLm9yZz6JAj8EEwEIACkFAlgvB3YCGyMF CQlmAYAHCwkIBwMCAQYVCAIJCgsEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRAO2D86RorIs56yD/44BSJvKnjH ex0nhPDI9nIJlzlnypa4qsniy0obG5GRbVRikT1E1xaz7VBoPs39hCywoIWd6p0hs1PG1Tcj WV0GwNKRt90PPEh6iNJSGjV2Aq3IlME/aUViD9008yfbRSqfsnPXLW1kpCoZNaOSNzpURoM9 OkVU/z4LSLD61SfFFByBne/GkJKt96/fcspBif1GPC//63ZKFrDqQ9JFR6dECAmsKv7baayz MTv3wrTcqpuHcqJIv4vTm8IPx1QiGgEvrMwsPZz/vx8bMdxxxHWgCcbrt+0b3tRzq9ATZwG3 xDiwnJgKd+ioZOC/b5sY69721sqwBmWYyXWVqtqt01xIgNZjr/wixam+l1bTGUgj0rwPWJWx +7Whe25ff+mNNW/UQeCBjZlxoxAJWSr1Pp3n+SQKQ4TLs8wIwHZtcVCffepfHd47CEbnR8Kc Tjm3tlKzSWq4zcUy6BaxHfgn9+HaAM7fwLqx9/WAtSfdmLXJTN+Swy0w/slakD75jl2o7U3e ETjoYQWt+306X2Uly/0ge7VEQ4ySmmbru6U5ainGE95gjsc++s+hvKmMuGYL3h4ijE1RSe/k wgM6/Z1B6JosssdX+KRuuk2A4FHGbcee8LUIJ3C36qyI7s6PJBXi6SjIPN0wpx30P/DUf/Lr o5lmHF03qQ5eeqI8lDwIobWlJbkCDQRYKXEdARAAxYOE3/AFmEfQ0SVVFujYFhZKX+BGXolY ytC2a1soZogVYTIIlypxkRtN+ljteFAY3xX/El7cx5Fxj+uXvLKAm9xQRI/DCug7/NGULMk9 bDK5bzSGw817cyiL5Kb+0RkWj2Y5ArOAK6XPGBZWZTHwyIawsSCN9AhDXZQWVRqkR1QXcq3I YKl+OHWMO7+1VfixCSakNf7T/Kiq46rQEPW8Eghk6CVOBR8xUCBbyk5aRW4VSGO6pUD3H21u r+5fTLsVyan1NHhxNNiXfnEJKr+JI5dXSkj7WqA5n8ITaNdFSAttkdT56wAQpxE2h8zaOmBa FUWQ4D8SdXDVymP5QMtLG+ItMMiNV6kXgsRFugAKM5yZtPP9gIX+ic8QO5iuct37bRXJU/rm rH54Ab0kyAeeRE7oSsfTZPKvgtUh7VLAUEw/wy6TORJHE8JMaX0yYT6h4PGRS3mNM4bka8hj dfcrexI0zSqFOl2I22zQlG3YqSzIvVh98W67hxfAIaCVaTfJLFPEru3drxNwi6ogdkRmcLGK qqTgeYItrvITyFvzqbrcO2exp0KKEK3cDIZypqHHUf4+uPlDtuExehLsNOMpjP8qhZpFtyLe DS07qunbvstcyvR30wOJ3DyAbHGzq739UyDcO9Jt5jwODyVwk3MK5Em4pJ0+IAJx+F6gta0B k2MAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWClxHQIbDAUJCWYBgAAKCRAO2D86RorIs0ykD/4t151SZG9M beKRVKbs9Ecjady9bO0L3oBos4rhqY12ha8smFlsUzvbgB4CtkBuXQlq+plOBWv+rFEThOzy 3bezgEDjlxycoO1W2wJD6E7Fo9fkHT6UOm9fQBkuKRqK83OGnfM02qP1Ky8d7EoZz+nTSMf/ DJgWw1YRKrXkMHBwKD83lCENsmePWE5AjMqk8cojPv9Oy1wWy6fHjwx3r+wQSokBNfxgQyAF onmgBbhlic/pZUYRSIcldyUlaomrjFfr4egzmNE7aWDvLwOUYKevBIeJJcqTyfAn3TtJbPCE HOC2+lP6EcmPFyhQdiia+RqOClumqbWOPeQ2VM8j7NWvKKmBNBB5OJ/rmHogbNU+wWPJ723q MBoOp1jIwFNkQhx01W6v55VMwLr+IuBKY1ggJ2BhwQiGpWv4tMc5oB/qVh3my1VO65ErcJ3S 9blpwJdDj5/YDOU7BKEmpRUP+xkaryNzH2x7FzrOOHzJBX6jeYZabGvnTicQlBAzfGpblFqV 3YN6EhCF2AHmGLTZ/DrjGYToIsW8cXlEMqN4u8ODEUY0OhbnytnopKJKk99bwMoCqDkfQvT3 LKDWtZj9NzFndfuoKXsVpwAitrG0mau0/16DKDyVWdtJ9DYmtE40zO6g70VVxUj+dKt2hbJT y/KQTb7Ijhw7wZrGp/P7nhbVyA== Message-ID: <7fedea81-6827-38c2-04b3-5854126b2d52@digitaldissidents.org> Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 14:27:25 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <295780f7-ebf3-79e4-0b2d-faaecfa0d984@nomountain.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="xy4k39Tdl38oJvIUAc9t7cHDw2qwIzE5C" X-Authenticated-As-Hash: 29cc722430e8f1f6ed904119444c0d49b0f3ee91 X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 92147cc26b2e14e0b1010f762ef587ae Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 13:27:33 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --xy4k39Tdl38oJvIUAc9t7cHDw2qwIzE5C Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="OnTTn83WM92oQaIUKpJFidQSoyGb7o63G"; protected-headers="v1" From: Niels ten Oever To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <7fedea81-6827-38c2-04b3-5854126b2d52@digitaldissidents.org> Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227102943.GA14015@nic.fr> <1829722692.7358.1577443983540@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227134419.GA19644@nic.fr> <295780f7-ebf3-79e4-0b2d-faaecfa0d984@nomountain.net> In-Reply-To: <295780f7-ebf3-79e4-0b2d-faaecfa0d984@nomountain.net> --OnTTn83WM92oQaIUKpJFidQSoyGb7o63G Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 12/28/19 9:07 PM, Melinda Shore wrote: > On 12/28/19 9:48 AM, Randy Bush wrote: >> not clear. a little chaos and need for open communication to coordina= te >> may be saving us from even worse centralisation and authoritarianism. >=20 > I believe this is true. >=20 > Anyway, this may be a good time for people to reread RFC 3935. > The Internet Engineering Task Force is chartered to do engineering. =46rom RFC3935: [quote1] The IETF community wants the Internet to succeed because we believe that the existence of the Internet, and its influence on economics, communication, and education, will help us to build a better human society. [/quote1] [quote2] The Internet isn't value-neutral, and neither is the IETF. We want the Internet to be useful for communities that share our commitment to openness and fairness. We embrace technical concepts such as decentralized control, edge-user empowerment and sharing of resources, because those concepts resonate with the core values of the IETF community. These concepts have little to do with the technology that's possible, and much to do with the technology that we choose to create. [/quote2] > We don't do governance of any body other than ourselves (and > sometimes not even that). > The quotes above seem to imply something else, but that then in turn depe= nds on your definitions of governance/influence/engineering/politics/etc.= So YMMV. These quotes also go against Brian's mail that said: On 12/27/19 8:28 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > I'd go a bit further. IMHO, the IETF (+IAB) does best by explicitly > excluding political, economic or sociological issues from our > reasoning *even if they seem relevant*. The IETF is caught up in political issues, but hopes that it can stay out= of the cross-hairs and continue business as usual.=20 Technology has political, economic, and sociological implications. If the= IETF does not take these into account, someone else is bound to do it fo= r the IETF. Ethical considerations and commitments are an inherent part o= f pretty much all engineering organizations, I have (and probably will) a= lways will be surprised the IETF really does not want to commit to any fr= amework for ethical, value or norm considerations. Best, Niels --=20 Niels ten Oever Researcher and PhD Candidate Datactive Research Group University of Amsterdam PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 =20 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 --OnTTn83WM92oQaIUKpJFidQSoyGb7o63G-- --xy4k39Tdl38oJvIUAc9t7cHDw2qwIzE5C Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEJFgLcFxK/YqUiGQ6Dtg/OkaKyLMFAl4Iqb4ACgkQDtg/OkaK yLM8cA/5AQSVkZsQGU9fQKftQQNuq9UEsmhxPYMcuol6T9KemvcHZw6v5OKO1wA0 nrLMsjY48ygT8TZPj1A8H2EcDYoZQ7dZ7W8rrDSr4wIfRWIMfpT4hjuCYeLtB6xK NRxDSMS61gtmZgBJ6FqCHwAAHgHRLWM+mc01PG0eRnsgQBRmFqFvT5ReL/bT2oFn v4HDXVbtYfW+/rS5k69Jb7H5qDInDhgY2YrkIpAepT+/tin9JtWp5z9+FjL4R5FX SlKmPNYveTPjuGcFuXbaMSkDoFqXTuTAey01KoLjHa7Jahbw02wOjEiRuhz+SPU8 erjlMomHp95QfOyUj7/9cjuFfIbWEVfbQSsbHsvf3qGM5zefo9QFf/Vr32njK6Y8 vWhBQLTRwZhTfGHm+U1G2KBNnsH4uqo3YcrTmL9a71q6Exxar7IY8/fPFg0mW+TT I1oOqz2wm5Ee8iFBTooSxLZtXY+QtyXkebuFm+Iu++sjY4U+g0/elJhjeHlzlmQj urOGTG3sGCL5rXbLmP7NNUJt7gGXPgjLhcoUfP/hYyoAOZwQjjgjhB5ky4QyaMgF EcXI9UZXnKNHRBopUSGPV8sRfLQCvU+nD8DBnsJAND8OS1NukRf2x5CLRT11ykcW DUWi7z4cOa0plQ7fLK2kNsL5VCCyvm3reAdtO2BSTOPvlk6KVkU= =20UB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --xy4k39Tdl38oJvIUAc9t7cHDw2qwIzE5C-- From nobody Sun Dec 29 08:25:36 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 020D8120077 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 08:25:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=frobbit.se Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m7o4r5GTAEv2 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 08:25:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.frobbit.se (mail.frobbit.se [85.30.129.176]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B4A6612001A for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 08:25:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.165.72.241] (unknown [IPv6:2a02:80:3ffc:0:61ce:2bc8:31cc:8fd]) by mail.frobbit.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B646E234D5; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 17:25:31 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=frobbit.se; s=mail; t=1577636731; bh=aBKzQjOtkgyr33gzVcAHwBKCjKWzdaHWuZOt7k7uC7Y=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=Z7E7xZnXuXjBHkSbU225QD+JE2IC5ZRH2nqAcp6N7xZjPzDAI927OWKh7vH2eqWaR YEQAHgcRRWgLaYVInQaxM2qCqkZrx9EZOG8BBYTZOVyFyOAxo5+4VNzAhEi05O2vta LWSLmrOvGiODjqpN58/XGR1n6eSeUBnTP3vukzzU= From: "Patrik =?utf-8?b?RsOkbHRzdHLDtm0=?=" To: "Niels ten Oever" Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 17:25:30 +0100 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.1r5671) Message-ID: <6AA0059F-2D29-4A1A-B651-CB9917C06A77@frobbit.se> In-Reply-To: <7fedea81-6827-38c2-04b3-5854126b2d52@digitaldissidents.org> References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227102943.GA14015@nic.fr> <1829722692.7358.1577443983540@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227134419.GA19644@nic.fr> <295780f7-ebf3-79e4-0b2d-faaecfa0d984@nomountain.net> <7fedea81-6827-38c2-04b3-5854126b2d52@digitaldissidents.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=_MailMate_276FA9E2-B031-40A5-84AD-F7303226F496_="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 16:25:36 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 3156 and 4880). --=_MailMate_276FA9E2-B031-40A5-84AD-F7303226F496_= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 29 Dec 2019, at 14:27, Niels ten Oever wrote: > Technology has political, economic, and sociological implications. If t= he IETF does not take these into account, someone else is bound to do it = for the IETF. Agree, but I think one of the main important things have to do with the f= act that, for example, during my watch as Area Director for Applications = Area, IETF worked hard on protocols for instant messaging. It was difficu= lt to come to an agreement, so at the end IETF developed 4 alternative so= lutions (or was it 3?). Jabber (XMPP) was not one of them. Ultimately XMP= P joined the IETF and IETF seems to agree it was a protocol to use. In parallell vendors started to develop their own chat solutions and toda= y we are where we are. Each vendor have their own service, and interopera= bility is about zero. We had almost the similar situation for calendaring but at least we manag= ed to get a standardized format for calendar events that can be sent arou= nd as a text file. The format is quite "old" looking at todays standards = (and to be frank, quite stupid) but the important thing was interoperabil= ity. Today we can send calendar events to each other even if we use different = calendar programs, but we can not chat with each other. So, if people do not like what IETF do, people just ignore IETF. Patrik --=_MailMate_276FA9E2-B031-40A5-84AD-F7303226F496_= Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iG0EARECAC0WIQRUH/cJI8i4DDUU3qWsxpsaC4jXzQUCXgjTeg8ccGFmQGZyb2Ji aXQuc2UACgkQrMabGguI180vSwCcCwB49tu8tJT6OVfcZIDGoEAJXf0An014egOk 7fbMh193T7+rF3XikpYo =iyGq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=_MailMate_276FA9E2-B031-40A5-84AD-F7303226F496_=-- From nobody Sun Dec 29 09:07:52 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD0FF12007C for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 09:07:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.17 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.17 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JgJsKFaMWgqA for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 09:07:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A15412001A for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 09:07:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D207548045; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 18:07:40 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 944FF440059; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 18:07:40 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 18:07:40 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Marc Blanchet Cc: Andrew Campling , architecture-discuss@iab.org Message-ID: <20191229170740.GI8801@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20191227130815.120fc690@elandnews.com> <2CA4CBDC-CAB0-4E02-BC4C-40DF67FB64BC@tony.li> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 17:07:51 -0000 On Sat, Dec 28, 2019 at 02:46:18PM -0500, Marc Blanchet wrote: > IMHO, we are diverging pretty off the initial proposed charter. Well I can > understand your point of view, I think the policy side, as you describe, > should be outside the scope of the charter. +1 > Can we come back to technical content? Indeed. When reading all the threads about policy i was wondering what this could mean technically to IETF/IAB work, and the best i could come up with was the part of our standards that allow to express policies. BGP filtering, ACLs, split horizon DNS, DiffServ, etc. pp. I do wonder though what specifically the technologies for IAB/IETF could be to express policies regarding resilience, and i think it would be interesting to outline/document those. Especially when its more than any of aforementioned policies to select a single path or control what traffic policies should be applied to it. Toerless > Marc. > > > > > > > Andrew > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Architecture-discuss mailing list > > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Sun Dec 29 09:11:29 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29857120089 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 09:11:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g-USi868gfBi for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 09:11:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2418D12007C for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 09:11:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ilc66-000NZD-Rf; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 12:11:22 -0500 Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 12:11:17 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: =?UTF-8?Q?Patrik_F=C3=A4ltstr=C3=B6m?= cc: Stephane Bortzmeyer , Andrew Campling , architecture-discuss@iab.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227102943.GA14015@nic.fr> <646cd584-60d1-a578-36e9-d4eca5d9ec93@gmail.com> <20191229093910.GA20055@sources.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 17:11:28 -0000 --On Sunday, December 29, 2019 12:18 +0100 Patrik = F=C3=A4ltstr=C3=B6m wrote: > On 29 Dec 2019, at 10:39, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: >=20 >> On Sat, Dec 28, 2019 at 06:32:54PM +0000, >> Andrew Campling wrote >> a message of 229 lines which said: >>=20 >>> The lack of an effective, global policy making body for the >>> internet is a problem that needs to be addressed as it is a >>> significant gap. >>=20 >> This statement is questionable. As noted by Randy Bush and >> Brian Carpenter, such a body would have an extraordinary >> power (in the past, even the worst dictator had a power >> limited to the borders of the country), and then we would >> have to think about how to limit and control that power. >=20 > And more importantly, IF there is a governance body, there > must by definition be something that is to be governed. >=20 > I have hard time understanding what that could be. >=20 > Coordination is something completely different, and we should > aim towards continuing the effective coordination we have done > so far. Patrik (and others), I've been trying to stay out of this, but I think you (plural) are, at best, oversimplifying the situation. There is a tested model for doing exactly what several people have suggested would be difficult or impossible. That is to declare a particular communications medium (or, for that matter, something else) to be a national asset and/or problem and then treat the points at which traffic crosses national boundaries as a border crossing issue. That is almost exactly what was done with the PSTN back in the days before deregulation, when most or all carriers within countries were either run by the government or very tightly regulated and when international exchange points were a matter for treaties, often bilaterial ones, and eventually treaties within an international regulatory framework. The analogy is less clear and more obnoxious, but one could say almost the same thing about international trade in pornography and illicit drugs, especially because the definition of what should be treated as illegal differs from one country to = another. The PSTN experience shows that what "can be governed" is content, modes of information exchange, who can carry traffic across national boundaries and under what conditions, and even who has access to the relevant systems. We've also seen national bans on cryptography and regular demands for law enforcement access to keys or back doors into algorithms. That we have successfully pushed back on some of those attempts in the past is no guarantee about the future. Pretending that the IETF is solely concerned about technical matters doesn't really work either and we are not consistent about it. RFC 7258 is ultimately a political statement because the attack it focuses on is an attack on privacy. The desirability of privacy is a shared value among most IETF participants (even though we have some disagreements about what is important to be protected and from whom) but its value is definitely not recognized (and recognized in the same way) internationally. It could have been a more technical statement if it had said "if one embraces the following values, then PM is bad news and the following should be done (or not done)", but it doesn't. The contrast with RFC 8404 is interesting because the latter is much closer to an "if you/we do X then the operational consequences are Y" technical statement. My own concern is the possibility of some well-publicized incident or set of incidents triggering demands that legislators, regulators, or other governmental bodies Do Something and the very high odds that what they do will be ill-advised, especially if the IETF and similar bodies are doing work that is easily portrayed as not policy-neutral and that have clearly failed to prevent whatever the triggering events are. I am not proposing this (partially because I think we are likely to get it wrong) but, if we really wanted to be policy-neutral, documents whose tone was closer to "we think doing X would be really bad because Y but, if you choose to do it, here is how to minimize collateral damage" (where X might be "PM", "disconnecting from the Internet", "wholesale filtering based on content", "banning encryption without back doors", or other things), might be =20 much more helpful than the path we seem to be on, that IAB programme as it appears to be shaping up from this discussion included. Thanks for reading this far; back to lurking. john From nobody Sun Dec 29 09:34:26 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 676DC12007C for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 09:34:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.75 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.75 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=h9h5ZutU; dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=rYaJhzYg Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BIFMYAzCRfgJ for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 09:34:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D351712006E for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 09:34:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 18737 invoked from network); 29 Dec 2019 17:34:21 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=492f.5e08e39d.k1912; i=printer-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=lP3IXsau8fxPm6Y5/SxBfUiRjozrlON637DavDAZ8oA=; b=h9h5ZutUOlHuDo96fFWNxOR+9VGzF9PF9nNyut/MIqpPEzY3NkhgdYmaw60P4LdJPlSl6XCMbSygtMU6bQSCcriEPjCRRpwOeg9VOkRVk8SDIQu1SYWFU13znzLNviaROEP7P9+wwgK8E545Zii4fgcgQAhPsK0L+kchWbQMy6bz5nSyqA5BK2w6t1no5+DyPkMsHNz37pOCwRBefslJzHMTPLFw3fFOqMMQ0JSxIXGyf9Qq643Va2p5y8cgh87w DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=492f.5e08e39d.k1912; olt=printer-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=lP3IXsau8fxPm6Y5/SxBfUiRjozrlON637DavDAZ8oA=; b=rYaJhzYgfIYac4zHkTPvREKVUU6uw+ndW4U5j0INnjcZkv/axtnA8Z5JQWnOM4EGap/8f59eYP3p5qVLwFyHc8fgLMmPNPxHBwKJznhAOYrOQCcW97szg+P3nQwD1l/3KPpWY9Lein4dAiyyK8gDUv2h+9d0eDvQIp+QU930YPT9iahdvgPcCUFIjb0/+2smRV6BJVzGcBwVBvsTB/SJyarx2nk2riDlnE2tNfHlzJqo2m/NnjV/yVIUjzEwrpE+ Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPSA (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD, printer@iecc.com) via TCP6; 29 Dec 2019 17:34:21 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id BEC0311CFC60; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 12:34:20 -0500 (EST) Date: 29 Dec 2019 12:34:20 -0500 Message-Id: <20191229173420.BEC0311CFC60@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Cc: tte@cs.fau.de In-Reply-To: <20191229170740.GI8801@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 17:34:25 -0000 In article <20191229170740.GI8801@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> you write: >When reading all the threads about policy i was wondering what this could >mean technically to IETF/IAB work, and the best i could come up with >was the part of our standards that allow to express policies. A lot of our designs have implicit policy models. The most obvious is the DNS. Since it's one tree with a single root, it was inevitable that we would end up with something like ICANN to manage that root. The fixed size of the IPv4 address space and our failure to produce a migration path to a successor made it equally inevitable that IP addresses would be worth money and people will buy and sell and steal them. The RIRs' effectiveness in managing all this is, ah, mixed. >I do wonder though what specifically the technologies for IAB/IETF >could be to express policies regarding resilience, and i think it >would be interesting to outline/document those. Especially when its >more than any of aforementioned policies to select a single path >or control what traffic policies should be applied to it. Right. I hope we can learn from our experience. R's, John From nobody Sun Dec 29 11:38:18 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 530BC120098 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 11:38:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4AqDxFE__tkr for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 11:38:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x535.google.com (mail-pg1-x535.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::535]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 91F3B1200A3 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 11:38:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x535.google.com with SMTP id k25so17023742pgt.7 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 11:38:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Rp+tcz/qMIRMVeg/lbgmwW4nfUf1/PolFqqJxZ81c+w=; b=ATQ6QRVmkGtu8J/irAGwONpxN1iJ9FeBr3mn0It5seDAcHDkAKUag3hJ/q3SDcYeZU sE7YsXh/M07Pav6DYKYtXxBLo9o5+IK+XXLh7XUQ0+Z8XkTov2gKBNZ3SWHcvfP3Kchz 0elqEQww84lfJk3CNbRl/oI/O3uTsNVbvsGKT/BKNpM10Rm93G+IW0+Xi81KrJM08HRL dTzkcui+j/Nw343XNX/QLAdm8xolK7Y4Oair+PVVdxaCVRdxG8lcxo4TUDEXZ8jwZeJO GPnieisi8801voyFuQt2rVyJcnarB/uro98GfvIwpimyqnF2842Jgc3cHK71yXlGisOa y7qg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Rp+tcz/qMIRMVeg/lbgmwW4nfUf1/PolFqqJxZ81c+w=; b=nsOgDXvDNVMPykqmLJe/inKhnwB/OmR8SHTfaPhDeHNaAeUjVYt/e6IOsjhEig7qLq OUxNRQBdzEhwX0dQExLl2C+08Bxun9lDOZAYgFSpSyUE/XitQ95UfxKnJc1f2K5bwC/y kiTiSqPyVRJbN/otcgTyH8U2i+0o00EQf2yIqlIhVKgYoXZ/7mmKOL8PHoffoiiibcqA yMbD5vt87e7ZE9HSAmowyB8LwfDR+EwEiRkfnw3khN0hbwwNsPMag2dqX33xfdwQnn89 SNKukz4ulBdGqY8APWuIlXdSatxLv6ObAo3ppHDnky5TVqvbrLWlDZ+46LgpTYy7eyIB IgKg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV4I7ohJjFjYGjYMM65dCIZLifsie/eSE+5/c2xIunAcYh7Kd+a OIQDF40zUkzJ9p3H2P8dM7n7kq2O X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy5cOz/OSqHZ4BZ94OfguoDxBYTPUziyHSRB0m8IF0s2RqNDhiKOPmHqrGeqsEmLa/GMzehLQ== X-Received: by 2002:a63:d10e:: with SMTP id k14mr69841832pgg.120.1577648293612; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 11:38:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.30] (228.147.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.147.228]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 13sm47499292pfi.78.2019.12.29.11.38.11 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 29 Dec 2019 11:38:12 -0800 (PST) To: Niels ten Oever , architecture-discuss@ietf.org References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227102943.GA14015@nic.fr> <1829722692.7358.1577443983540@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227134419.GA19644@nic.fr> <295780f7-ebf3-79e4-0b2d-faaecfa0d984@nomountain.net> <7fedea81-6827-38c2-04b3-5854126b2d52@digitaldissidents.org> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <68c2aa4c-a0f8-6c26-ef2a-53bc67eb4ff8@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 08:38:09 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7fedea81-6827-38c2-04b3-5854126b2d52@digitaldissidents.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 19:38:16 -0000 On 30-Dec-19 02:27, Niels ten Oever wrote: ... > On 12/27/19 8:28 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> I'd go a bit further. IMHO, the IETF (+IAB) does best by explicitly >> excluding political, economic or sociological issues from our >> reasoning *even if they seem relevant*. > > The IETF is caught up in political issues, but hopes that it can stay out of the cross-hairs and continue business as usual. Yes, because our scope covers technology deployed in almost every political, economic and social environment in the world, so the technology *needs* to be versatile, robust and resilient as a result. I wrote my words above carefully -- we do *best* by excluding those considerations, which does not mean that we always succeed in excluding them. > Technology has political, economic, and sociological implications. Of course, but they are often extremely hard to predict when designing the technology. No doubt the spear was invented only to kill animals for food. > If the IETF does not take these into account, someone else is bound to do it for the IETF. Ethical considerations and commitments are an inherent part of pretty much all engineering organizations, I have (and probably will) always will be surprised the IETF really does not want to commit to any framework for ethical, value or norm considerations. As has been pointed out, that isn't really true, because we do state some values in RFC3935, and assume some (especially the right to privacy) in RFC 1984, 2804 and 7258. However, resiliency doesn't seem to me to require a discussion of values. It's a very clear technical requirement on its own. Surviving human error, equipment failure, natural disasters, political interference, and acts of war might each generate different resiliency considerations. Regards, Brian From nobody Sun Dec 29 14:08:56 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B80512008C for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 14:08:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=elandsys.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UQq0BtOFJDK9 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 14:08:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.elandsys.com (mx.elandsys.com [162.213.2.210]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA4C912006F for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 14:08:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from DESKTOP-K6V9C2L.elandsys.com ([102.116.26.199]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.15.2/8.14.5) with ESMTPSA id xBTM8ahb028633 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 29 Dec 2019 14:08:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1577657332; x=1577743732; i=@elandsys.com; bh=nEu1aGIwOJ0mxcI+sKwApWN/bsDGnUGRGGtg6oAngI4=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=BnqFtNIW5lDr2IoVI4FCHPH1iL8TNiceV4YbUL1meUhrrJHut9stduqC2omwsp3Gj GZPKzhXBshDsYtxRvqjCuv89rlH206kNV8f+BIWdJWxrOX0QyaD3//trZfrNX5mzbb 3IYJsUyMnHcAwVzsSREPteEAmhX0cd115yvBC67I= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20191229105554.0ccf0298@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 13:55:57 -0800 To: Vittorio Bertola , Marc Blanchet , architecture-discuss@iab.org From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: <1829722692.7358.1577443983540@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.co m> References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227102943.GA14015@nic.fr> <1829722692.7358.1577443983540@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 22:08:54 -0000 Hi Vittorio, Marc, At 02:53 AM 27-12-2019, Vittorio Bertola wrote: >However, the fact that a proper, effective, global policy-making >body for the Internet does not exist will not make the need for it >disappear. Simply, what is happening is that, in the absence of >global consensus decisions on policy issues, the discussion and the >action moves to the only level which is equipped with somewhat >effective policy making and enforcement tools: national Parliaments >and governments. > >This is a consequence of the Internet community failing to establish >an effective global policy-making mechanism in parallel to the very >effective global technical standardization mechanism, and on top of >it, taking decisions and embracing policies that would never reach >consensus in the broader circle of non-technical Internet stakeholders. The attendance number for IGF was 5,000. The number for the last IETF meeting was 1,012. There were some discussions, from a policy perspective, about standardization. It takes some effort to understand the relevance or the pick up the noteworthy details. Some entities may be of the view that there is a need for a global policy-making body. There are two ways to make that happen. That's not the current trend though. >Several people here seem to think that they can use their position >of technology makers to force unwelcome policies onto about 200 >countries in the world, but I doubt that in the long term this >attempt will bode well for the Internet. I think we will just see more The 200 figure seems a bit of the high side. At 11:46 AM 28-12-2019, Marc Blanchet wrote: >IMHO, we are diverging pretty off the initial proposed charter. Well >I can understand your point of view, I think the policy side, as you >describe, should be outside the scope of the charter. > >Can we come back to technical content? There is the following sentence in the proposed charter: "For example, if one implementation dominates in deployment to the extent that bugs or vulnerabilities in that implementation could create significant effects, or if only a small number of service providers are so widely used that they effectively become "too big to fail", even though failures are always possible". Is the second part of the sentence (small number of service providers) a technical matter? The proposal also states that "resilience is the result of protocol design, implementation, and deployment choices". Are deployment choices a technical matter? Regards, S. Moonesamy From nobody Sun Dec 29 15:21:59 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B0831200D5 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 15:21:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.17 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.17 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4rEMlKgQCUXw for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 15:21:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C8531200CD for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 15:21:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F521548045; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 00:14:54 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 5320F440059; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 00:14:54 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 00:14:54 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Patrik F?ltstr?m Cc: Scott Brim , architecture-discuss@iab.org Message-ID: <20191229231454.GJ8801@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20191227130815.120fc690@elandnews.com> <2CA4CBDC-CAB0-4E02-BC4C-40DF67FB64BC@tony.li> <304321FD-CB1A-45FE-B67D-0C8ABA6F0BF5@frobbit.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 23:21:57 -0000 On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 08:15:42AM +0100, Patrik F?ltstr?m wrote: > Correct Scott, but I was more thinking of the fact ITU-T results might bind the members (the member States) by treaties, which implies the members do not have any choice but implement the outcomes. Just like ICANN outcomes are binding for the contracted parties in many cases. Any example where the ITU-T work result itself includes contractual obligations that where actually worked out by ITU-T ? As opposed to those obligations being drafted separately after the fact, aka: where ITU-T jut provides the technical basis ? > IETF do not have such arrangements. We implement if we like what IETF produce. There is probably a lot more commercial interests hanging on a (limited subset of) IETF output than legal one, but i am sure its not too difficult to find legal requirements referring to IEF work result. Toerless From nobody Sun Dec 29 15:40:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29CD01200D7 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 15:40:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.17 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.17 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9zbEkW4Sve69 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 15:40:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB5081200CD for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 15:40:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FDE7548045; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 00:40:07 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 05506440059; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 00:40:07 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 00:40:06 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Niels ten Oever , architecture-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <20191229234006.GK8801@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227102943.GA14015@nic.fr> <1829722692.7358.1577443983540@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227134419.GA19644@nic.fr> <295780f7-ebf3-79e4-0b2d-faaecfa0d984@nomountain.net> <7fedea81-6827-38c2-04b3-5854126b2d52@digitaldissidents.org> <68c2aa4c-a0f8-6c26-ef2a-53bc67eb4ff8@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <68c2aa4c-a0f8-6c26-ef2a-53bc67eb4ff8@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 23:40:13 -0000 On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 08:38:09AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > However, resiliency doesn't seem to me to require a discussion of values. It's a very clear technical requirement on its own. Surviving human error, equipment failure, natural disasters, political interference, and acts of war might each generate different resiliency considerations. Germany seems to think that its good for resilience and cost reduction to be able to source oil from all places it can, including russia (nordstream 2). The USA claims values against that and is hence fighting it. To make a more technical _networking_ resilience argument: In design of resilent network paths, one key ask is to have non-single point of failure in forwarding/control-plane code-paths, aka: diverse router vendors paths. But there are also government regulations based on "values" requiring network paths not to pass through specific vendors equipment or certain countries. Aka: You are grasphing for straws if you try to declare something to be beyond being abused as an argument about values. And remember that (plastic) straws too are outlawed in certain countries because of values. From nobody Sun Dec 29 17:05:03 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06DC41200E6 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 17:05:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Uv7UZem6Yjqr for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 17:05:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x642.google.com (mail-pl1-x642.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::642]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D1A41200CD for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 17:05:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x642.google.com with SMTP id a6so13286485plm.3 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 17:05:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=HCIwTv7dKwfpEKhAJIH6FCcWO8YmR/L3mCbQAh2fW6U=; b=tbSirqlP+80hFbwJz57o+O0HHj85/4mT/1CmrEDaVNTJSP1MmDIbwCFCBihE8GpDPr meSKMuPMZBZoOKAOcsi3mb2uvurLfc8/qy0DD/4jV3GjZmlZGRN1hXEFSVGRXuAxNEo+ Eqzo5lfDuXtqUJW/ZYpbqKWD7LUTJG+L16etYDbqXe9y89YqcuPWJ5jwkzW6bD4EDuS2 OKmCGGBiPkjbK7WrMkMqanFgvO5cTMldKdTdVHBc2hbb3pQZwInLGE2AwIEUuHXjMI0/ mvIgSJJocwcq8oTl113dKsdryEoqauww1/y0RILeNg/kxPTXEnacbKhpv2oqATj0jFmt QL1A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=HCIwTv7dKwfpEKhAJIH6FCcWO8YmR/L3mCbQAh2fW6U=; b=J+M2BXvyi2WvUc3UrsJw2T4baIQP0Ml5rlEfiP5ROMUExtt1jSYOA/1gqkUZMfTSoV EQcJ3JNaETec98VJS03E9xOA0Tqn+xXfsXs77QuojRV9bpyTqFIQMqQAEY3qJPpAI00N V9GsUcjuItS9j/Ui3PyTSlS87vvUY5AKcVLUMRLSSabw9XxPbdpnIfDEtJAo60hZJRSI QP7L2wAkvd4duzpI721lk2AMkQlqk+ixWi/wWFJVK3VpahUmDdCE+iVFPt/P+jl935GA iA/BDZjvx0GLuweBoSGxsDyai9zfPkzH3ai6LL0xqJEVQng3PNNMBimbA6uSQtx0vfTE R0ew== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVpIRt3yK0L7Y2rfRjezk3HTz53Sn1N9Nz7TUDs5dMasWQO7nh1 EHeF9yNfvkstVCztisdkB7HuyadB X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx78aK0mYWLL1GoUlGEnG1JlQPIG7OflW8fgFW9j4W1LqPm9VAFE6oLtLlSuFrZdBwjuweNkA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:145:: with SMTP id em5mr41635977pjb.20.1577667899299; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 17:04:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.30] (228.147.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.147.228]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l2sm21972961pjt.31.2019.12.29.17.04.56 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 29 Dec 2019 17:04:58 -0800 (PST) To: Toerless Eckert Cc: Niels ten Oever , architecture-discuss@ietf.org References: <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227102943.GA14015@nic.fr> <1829722692.7358.1577443983540@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227134419.GA19644@nic.fr> <295780f7-ebf3-79e4-0b2d-faaecfa0d984@nomountain.net> <7fedea81-6827-38c2-04b3-5854126b2d52@digitaldissidents.org> <68c2aa4c-a0f8-6c26-ef2a-53bc67eb4ff8@gmail.com> <20191229234006.GK8801@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <82a734ac-95c5-dd16-0dbc-9ea03ce330f2@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 14:04:53 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20191229234006.GK8801@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 01:05:02 -0000 On 30-Dec-19 12:40, Toerless Eckert wrote: > On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 08:38:09AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> However, resiliency doesn't seem to me to require a discussion of values. It's a very clear technical requirement on its own. Surviving human error, equipment failure, natural disasters, political interference, and acts of war might each generate different resiliency considerations. > > Germany seems to think that its good for resilience and cost reduction > to be able to source oil from all places it can, including russia (nordstream 2). > The USA claims values against that and is hence fighting it. > > To make a more technical _networking_ resilience argument: In design of > resilent network paths, one key ask is to have non-single point of failure > in forwarding/control-plane code-paths, aka: diverse router vendors paths. > But there are also government regulations based on "values" requiring > network paths not to pass through specific vendors equipment or certain countries. > > Aka: You are grasphing for straws if you try to declare something to be > beyond being abused as an argument about values. And remember that > (plastic) straws too are outlawed in certain countries because of values. True. But that doesn't prevent us doing the analysis of resilience issues without making political assumptions. If it comes out that the best form of resilient routing would be some form of Byzantine routing with no fixed paths between end points, that would be a valid technical conclusion. (Whether that particular approach has been seriously analyzed since about 1962, I don't know.) If we could design a resilient unambiguous namespace without a central authority, that would also be a valid technical conclusion that might prove troubling to ICANN. Brian From nobody Sun Dec 29 22:36:58 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3DBE120106 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 22:36:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V0fegh3Cso5n for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 22:36:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x330.google.com (mail-ot1-x330.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::330]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D3B11200B6 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 22:36:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x330.google.com with SMTP id b18so23267685otp.0 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 22:36:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=/8q0FHWdJB2Keuk/eBfmJcOdUuteKcvhm64T45L8zgA=; b=kMll+4hQNQIcoz9L46McIFGANkC9uDGIYGL+89ZcJcWpr3u+CwVmhucv5Nhne2EegP AodOloDP1ZBbnvTFNsGeCpqNVa4jjEK877WX/X3aL8l34WgyeTQqQkZ7rEUX/Nhr6ZuN +rpiOKg/FI9+Ymfk1jFD/QBFR2kuvB/zjuTu75BFLCZIBi1voj8MhFll5NGxrctvUtsn gPmbFmmy8Io9RB+x44+amGpaQ7i/N0nMKB2kh1cVPEGQq7wgWBu8q6cm0pnIexF3dX8i S+eRhDM36oxdGBmC6K1GzZjvuqTXKLBYTF0g99PHMbXBGcCmpYiotlsohKuc5hwN/X9p 517A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=/8q0FHWdJB2Keuk/eBfmJcOdUuteKcvhm64T45L8zgA=; b=X9dh5urNCrSPdKmLBVPk6fEJT7C6ZZGpUl9Ssd8jhzbbJbVj+25SWz5aQ6CIEyjdeT bucK6uaNB8HGa1ve3fJCzAdKJ+jWXra/WYYFksUmpPB9df0v9jvqBy0X0BSSPAfKdOlT AYa8BPKB1K71oB2aOWE2xz5d9x1XUINZDm6hypsoG1S6RLf2qK0N4ogNQzG+guKKGCA9 5u53CGCrE2N5JAU30YZlzCy1d8txnTv6MfbnM4Pa6ijC2ne7d6mrm0ZZLrLxH2EGfXb3 Trq7s3HvAtKO1NQ60ti1LzZ15m/yDxPQw6MXOE2+awiNEH3f10JjGckKBDSCh9ndXNmx mQPA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX062HtLBIVbffhKnXW0HChs4LwtklNQ0h4E2yHDX+E9iWcJW21 xzpWCMZBiUJ5S6vyIWJyCUtsGaCEfebaHShvrKg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzTMAw1QiHZybzoc5Ryj4rkLD5eRBXBWWfoW7KR+1mnXCYD32t8S8ZJdWOsvLrAiJ0+NeHbz/y9B1T/W9AbQHo= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:1112:: with SMTP id w18mr66722036otq.356.1577687812857; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 22:36:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6830:1155:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 22:36:52 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <82a734ac-95c5-dd16-0dbc-9ea03ce330f2@gmail.com> References: <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227102943.GA14015@nic.fr> <1829722692.7358.1577443983540@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227134419.GA19644@nic.fr> <295780f7-ebf3-79e4-0b2d-faaecfa0d984@nomountain.net> <7fedea81-6827-38c2-04b3-5854126b2d52@digitaldissidents.org> <68c2aa4c-a0f8-6c26-ef2a-53bc67eb4ff8@gmail.com> <20191229234006.GK8801@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <82a734ac-95c5-dd16-0dbc-9ea03ce330f2@gmail.com> From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 13:36:52 +0700 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Toerless Eckert , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" , stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a6e351059ae611f2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 06:36:57 -0000 --000000000000a6e351059ae611f2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear architecture-discuss (Brian, Toerless, Stephenond Others), Readings on this threads inspire me these points below (as I am making such a struggle to learn on Internet :-)) * A framing (if we may also say similarly, using Derrida's term, a parergon ?): Why should be...? Reasonings, approaches, and perspectives: (arrangements of) realities Values of & meanings of, the fittest: so that things should and may be survived... Thus, there should be: interpretations and evaluations by such languages (from the conceptual to the practical)... * The framing to apply on Internet and its conditions: Why should and may be survived? --Internet and its "conditions" (resilliency, robustness)? We need of such reasonings (contexts, approaches and perspectives of interpretations and evaluations) to come to understandings on (realities of) Internet and its conditions (among others is resilliency and robustness). Interpretations and evaluations socially and technically... Here we concern with lingual translations between the social and the technical... used in composing such architectural programmes on Internet... For example: if we accepted meanings and values of Internet conceptually as such that it has been part of half of the world populations' everyday life -'words made in a report by an International governmental organization-- then technically we may say " Internet continues to grow and diversify, with a realistic prospect of billions of nodes connected...". Then, architectural programmes on Internet may about "local requirements, behaviours, and semantics...". (B. Carpenter and B. Liu's "Limited Domain and Internet Protocols") Regards, Guntur Wiseno Putra Pada Senin, 30 Desember 2019, Brian E Carpenter menulis: > On 30-Dec-19 12:40, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 08:38:09AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >> However, resiliency doesn't seem to me to require a discussion of > values. It's a very clear technical requirement on its own. Surviving human > error, equipment failure, natural disasters, political interference, and > acts of war might each generate different resiliency considerations. > > > > Germany seems to think that its good for resilience and cost reduction > > to be able to source oil from all places it can, including russia > (nordstream 2). > > The USA claims values against that and is hence fighting it. > > > > To make a more technical _networking_ resilience argument: In design of > > resilent network paths, one key ask is to have non-single point of > failure > > in forwarding/control-plane code-paths, aka: diverse router vendors > paths. > > But there are also government regulations based on "values" requiring > > network paths not to pass through specific vendors equipment or certain > countries. > > > > Aka: You are grasphing for straws if you try to declare something to be > > beyond being abused as an argument about values. And remember that > > (plastic) straws too are outlawed in certain countries because of values. > > True. But that doesn't prevent us doing the analysis of resilience issues > without making political assumptions. If it comes out that the best form > of resilient routing would be some form of Byzantine routing with no fixed > paths between end points, that would be a valid technical conclusion. > (Whether that particular approach has been seriously analyzed since about > 1962, I don't know.) If we could design a resilient unambiguous namespace > without a central authority, that would also be a valid technical > conclusion > that might prove troubling to ICANN. > > Brian > > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > --000000000000a6e351059ae611f2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear architecture-discuss
(Brian, Toerless, Stephen= ond Others),

Readings on this threads inspire me t= hese points below (as I am making such a struggle to learn on Internet :-))=

* A framing (if we may also say similarly, using = Derrida's term, a parergon ?):

Why should be..= .?

Reasonings, approaches, and perspectives: (= arrangements of) realities

Values of & meaning= s of, the fittest: so that things should and may be survived...
<= br>
Thus, there should be:
interpretations and evaluati= ons by such languages (from the conceptual to the practical)...
<= br>

* The framing to apply on Internet and its con= ditions:

Why should and may be survived? --Interne= t and its "conditions" (resilliency, robustness)?

<= /div>
We need of such reasonings (contexts, approaches and perspectives= of interpretations and evaluations) to come to understandings on (realitie= s of) Internet and its conditions (among others is resilliency and robustne= ss).

Interpretations and evaluations socially and = technically... Here we concern with lingual translations between the social= and the technical... used in composing such architectural programmes on In= ternet...

For example: if we accepted meanings and= values of Internet conceptually as such that it has been part of half of t= he world populations' everyday life -'words made in a report by an = International governmental organization-- then technically we may say "= ; Internet continues to grow and diversify, with a realistic prospect of bi= llions of nodes connected...". Then, architectural programmes on Inter= net may about "local requirements, behaviours, and semantics...".= (B. Carpenter and B. Liu's "Limited Domain and Internet Protocols= ")


Regards,
Gu= ntur Wiseno Putra


Pada Senin, 30 Desember 2019, Brian E Carpen= ter <brian.e.carpenter@gm= ail.com> menulis:
On 30-Dec-19 12:= 40, Toerless Eckert wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 08:38:09AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>> However, resiliency doesn't seem to me to require a discussion= of values. It's a very clear technical requirement on its own. Survivi= ng human error, equipment failure, natural disasters, political interferenc= e, and acts of war might each generate different resiliency considerations.=
>
> Germany seems to think that its good for resilience and cost reduction=
> to be able to source oil from all places it can, including russia (nor= dstream 2).
> The USA claims values against that and is hence fighting it.
>
> To make a more technical _networking_ resilience argument: In design o= f
> resilent network paths, one key ask is to have non-single point of fai= lure
> in forwarding/control-plane code-paths, aka: diverse router vendors pa= ths.
> But there are also government regulations based on "values" = requiring
> network paths not to pass through specific vendors equipment or certai= n countries.
>
> Aka: You are grasphing for straws if you try to declare something to b= e
> beyond being abused as an argument about values. And remember that
> (plastic) straws too are outlawed in certain countries because of valu= es.

True. But that doesn't prevent us doing the analysis of resilience issu= es
without making political assumptions. If it comes out that the best form of resilient routing would be some form of Byzantine routing with no fixed<= br> paths between end points, that would be a valid technical conclusion.
(Whether that particular approach has been seriously analyzed since about 1962, I don't know.) If we could design a resilient unambiguous namespa= ce
without a central authority, that would also be a valid technical conclusio= n
that might prove troubling to ICANN.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian

_______________________________________________
Architecture-discuss mailing list
Architecture-discuss@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discu= ss
--000000000000a6e351059ae611f2-- From nobody Mon Dec 30 01:56:48 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D6AA120133 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 01:56:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=open-xchange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g2GwxxLnDuDl for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 01:56:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx4.open-xchange.com (alcatraz.open-xchange.com [87.191.39.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4B8EC120142 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 01:56:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from open-xchange.com (imap.open-xchange.com [10.20.30.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx4.open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 288416A262; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 10:56:42 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=open-xchange.com; s=201705; t=1577699802; bh=F+iNbznnZKpDw7yW8nz0lfGpr0iYtoElIKBtiezIIzI=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=E8tFbhvWmxUdk9EE8PlaR+Ol7f6jtUKLut4YgUrXhd3OYMwJGEOCIDKriWV5ZmHUg Uud2uMd97pW0hcWOqgJ3/Dyol428JAPkZCDHMQd1CPpFyS63H0wjPUfh4EbXyGp9cE E//Lfyr4ur27cMPJYfzLv713rfUEytAJgZdnhAQrTTICB1WPNXjjCUi7YLc3uxGvM7 Lap1YPTKfqwoW07HsZWNGcFpuEeBAHfo3v4KOIcJlUKUzAHzzog37tmBUQsUb7W5Ns 7PVXETBQRajYIgKpMMo3W7ZKbvHRSODW/AJfJ5qQ0vkuYLdXvgl5xibw1evUQ3MlfO YAI1ilGjo0tgg== Received: from appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com (appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com [10.20.28.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1BEF33C0324; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 10:56:42 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 10:56:41 +0100 (CET) From: Vittorio Bertola To: =?UTF-8?Q?Patrik_F=C3=A4ltstr=C3=B6m?= Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <1657137298.8209.1577699802014@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <6AA0059F-2D29-4A1A-B651-CB9917C06A77@frobbit.se> References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227102943.GA14015@nic.fr> <1829722692.7358.1577443983540@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227134419.GA19644@nic.fr> <295780f7-ebf3-79e4-0b2d-faaecfa0d984@nomountain.net> <7fedea81-6827-38c2-04b3-5854126b2d52@digitaldissidents.org> <6AA0059F-2D29-4A1A-B651-CB9917C06A77@frobbit.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.3-Rev3 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 09:56:47 -0000 > Il 29/12/2019 17:25 Patrik F=C3=A4ltstr=C3=B6m ha scritto: >=20 > So, if people do not like what IETF do, people just ignore IETF. However, what happened in other cases (at least, in the DoH case) is that t= he people that had to choose whether to embrace what the IETF had done were= the same ones that had worked in the IETF to get the protocol released, so= of course they chose to adopt it.=20 The problem was rather that, while this decision had significant policy imp= lications, that set of people was pretty small and partial in comparison to= the set of people that would be affected by the policy implications. So, s= een from outside the IETF, this was exactly a case of a few people exploiti= ng their position - not a political power position, but a corporate/technic= al power position - to impose their desired policy and values onto everyone= else, which ironically is what the IETF claims to reject in principle. Of course the IETF can then claim that, when these people decided to implem= ent the protocol in a way that could disrupt lots of stuff for lots of othe= r people, they were not wearing their IETF hat, but their own employer's ha= t... but this is just going to upset the rest of the world even more, as it= looks like a cheap excuse for not taking responsibility. So, documents like RFC 7258 are a strong, unilateral policy decision, and c= laiming that "we just write them, then people are free to follow them or no= t" is not going to fly. On the other hand, I share the concerns that were expressed by several peop= le on the practicality of a single monolithic global policy-maker for the I= nternet, which IMHO will never be able to exist properly until a form of de= mocratic planetary government will exist, which is possibly still several d= ecades away, maybe centuries away in the future. But, as I said, the need f= or global Internet policies will not go away just because we do not know ho= w to fulfill it - they will just be decided in other ways, a huge private o= ligopoly being the most likely and the scariest one. Now, if we think that this discussion is off topic, we can get back to disc= ussing an IAB charter on resilience... however I think this is a crucial is= sue that will determine if and how the Internet will still exist in the fut= ure. (P.S. - for the person who marveled at the number of 200 countries in the w= orld - the U.N. currently has 193 member states plus two observers) --=20 =20 Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com=20 Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy From nobody Mon Dec 30 03:35:54 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D3AF12016E for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 03:35:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=firsthand.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yuI0a3JdzKJr for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 03:35:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from tranquility.default.cdelarrinaga.uk0.bigv.io (tranquility.default.cdelarrinaga.uk0.bigv.io [IPv6:2001:41c8:51:8b8::184]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A9987120024 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 03:35:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=firsthand.net; s=tranquility; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:From:References:Cc:To:Subject; bh=smesfkdgeLfjQJ0oYkOca3hVKMa+xm3A4XUozv98RxU=; b=3Z+7Vxk9aIe8EWbsAs5aS0iW/SfPlN0bs1ejiNbINNCmKw7CoPr7mxV7llbXTH6JFlb/KdfUSENdFffqb94cfrrFYtLG0Uez1gxjYhdiF/t76Lg7L2osbQG1bSLZs8CjSQP0BYw8dUT4Kmz6yu0da/rfZ7owyNiNiJstAtzNSW4=; Received: from [185.3.100.169] (helo=[172.16.0.103]) by tranquility.default.cdelarrinaga.uk0.bigv.io with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iltKu-0006uz-7V; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 11:35:48 +0000 To: Vittorio Bertola , =?UTF-8?B?UGF0cmlrIEbDpGx0c3Ryw7Zt?= Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227102943.GA14015@nic.fr> <1829722692.7358.1577443983540@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227134419.GA19644@nic.fr> <295780f7-ebf3-79e4-0b2d-faaecfa0d984@nomountain.net> <7fedea81-6827-38c2-04b3-5854126b2d52@digitaldissidents.org> <6AA0059F-2D29-4A1A-B651-CB9917C06A77@frobbit.se> <1657137298.8209.1577699802014@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> From: Christian Message-ID: Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 11:35:46 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.2.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1657137298.8209.1577699802014@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 11:35:53 -0000 Hi Vittorio, I don't understand your objections. Are they? - DoH is out of scope for IETF? ( I would say it is well within scope and mission to support end to end security) - DoH is a bandaid patch that gives a false sense of security for users as it is not end to end or consistently available? (I have some sympathy ) - DoH when it is implemented and is working .. big if's . Breaks monkey in the middle practices to first resolvers. It has been clear for years these paths are going to have to be secured in time. Which is why so many have warned those doing these things against becoming overly dependent on the drug of digital predation. - DoH adds to the already over dominance of browsers as data and privacy sinks? (sigh - this is really broken architecturally. Can users trust browser vendors to not spy on them with the current controls available ? ) -  IETF has been captured by people who are using DoH to capture this slice of the monkey business for themselves? (presumably you refer to browser vendors? if not who?) C On 30/12/2019 09:56, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > >> Il 29/12/2019 17:25 Patrik Fältström ha scritto: >> >> So, if people do not like what IETF do, people just ignore IETF. > However, what happened in other cases (at least, in the DoH case) is that the people that had to choose whether to embrace what the IETF had done were the same ones that had worked in the IETF to get the protocol released, so of course they chose to adopt it. > > The problem was rather that, while this decision had significant policy implications, that set of people was pretty small and partial in comparison to the set of people that would be affected by the policy implications. So, seen from outside the IETF, this was exactly a case of a few people exploiting their position - not a political power position, but a corporate/technical power position - to impose their desired policy and values onto everyone else, which ironically is what the IETF claims to reject in principle. > > Of course the IETF can then claim that, when these people decided to implement the protocol in a way that could disrupt lots of stuff for lots of other people, they were not wearing their IETF hat, but their own employer's hat... but this is just going to upset the rest of the world even more, as it looks like a cheap excuse for not taking responsibility. > > So, documents like RFC 7258 are a strong, unilateral policy decision, and claiming that "we just write them, then people are free to follow them or not" is not going to fly. > > On the other hand, I share the concerns that were expressed by several people on the practicality of a single monolithic global policy-maker for the Internet, which IMHO will never be able to exist properly until a form of democratic planetary government will exist, which is possibly still several decades away, maybe centuries away in the future. But, as I said, the need for global Internet policies will not go away just because we do not know how to fulfill it - they will just be decided in other ways, a huge private oligopoly being the most likely and the scariest one. > > Now, if we think that this discussion is off topic, we can get back to discussing an IAB charter on resilience... however I think this is a crucial issue that will determine if and how the Internet will still exist in the future. > > (P.S. - for the person who marveled at the number of 200 countries in the world - the U.N. currently has 193 member states plus two observers) > From nobody Mon Dec 30 04:04:33 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E0E012010F for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 04:04:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=open-xchange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1h2jptpwpOC5 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 04:04:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx4.open-xchange.com (alcatraz.open-xchange.com [87.191.39.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 017BC120024 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 04:04:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from open-xchange.com (imap.open-xchange.com [10.20.30.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx4.open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 295B66A263; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 13:04:27 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=open-xchange.com; s=201705; t=1577707467; bh=3wXAzI5bfvzVpiUVfuCinrl3b/WVSMruqIxrsLVqVJg=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=Jd6w7CUZfJT9BQDg4P93Ggp85z9Iuu389OD5oW1R2bSlx/DbArrlxqAOQbXUB+xjb IFPnRop5bhnwsrX0nhu8RtTmyg6BUrIgr0anJEQkBPCbpsXJisgv+mnnGRTQEtHyL8 lkbfr5/Y425SYPvCPsFR3oVJDJ5CrTOt2Be+uCGh0bjryLnQhBlnMkFJovGcFL+LXo dj6cfv70sjZ3/M9fMRt5c+WN+7R4C+pQad0NZ9zeHTytQ8xnP0ZjP2Rw7vTHASbEnk lYZT8tGqLR7PEzzeJo6r8uNCNyXb1KX/Z1Q5e999vs5xkZsyb1QIdhQPRYR3fE7YUF OB8QOmOSq091w== Received: from appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com (appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com [10.20.28.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1CB773C0324; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 13:04:27 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 13:04:26 +0100 (CET) From: Vittorio Bertola To: Christian , =?UTF-8?Q?Patrik_F=C3=A4ltstr=C3=B6m?= Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <1542369969.8350.1577707467021@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227102943.GA14015@nic.fr> <1829722692.7358.1577443983540@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227134419.GA19644@nic.fr> <295780f7-ebf3-79e4-0b2d-faaecfa0d984@nomountain.net> <7fedea81-6827-38c2-04b3-5854126b2d52@digitaldissidents.org> <6AA0059F-2D29-4A1A-B651-CB9917C06A77@frobbit.se> <1657137298.8209.1577699802014@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.3-Rev3 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 12:04:31 -0000 > Il 30/12/2019 12:35 Christian ha scritto: > > > Hi Vittorio, > > I don't understand your objections. > > Are they? This is not yet another discussion on DoH - yes I have problems with how it is being deployed, though mostly different from the ones you list(*), but this is not the topic here. The discussion is rather about the IETF's pretense not to be making Internet policy (DoH is just an example where this pretense has been widely challenged) and about the idea of global Internet policy-making processes. (*) if you're interested in this, here is a recent panel discussion with multiple views: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1yMZEAvS3M -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy From nobody Mon Dec 30 11:21:46 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A2F7120B4E for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 11:21:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oIc8Si50Rr4G for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 11:21:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x530.google.com (mail-pg1-x530.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::530]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 867EE120B4D for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 11:21:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x530.google.com with SMTP id k197so18439699pga.10 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 11:21:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=0+nohfi/AtK+wVL0U4QnYjBxYzVSMhnYhzkHqhtUxM0=; b=Gz4js8JmxBoxtAKutG2PNWxV0iv6fGrV5Idf39ayy6GI/nDK2vzmaThQQqdDRSmtej 9GD/dLUAQeMKHcc8ZtrhGQKSn7XfZ8GYyVjMeobIe5+2bk50b+mLKnF5Y/X1Rz8PhB7W /NIp2To/bqDaH6c55skzCk+6m1IG/W6d9D61VvRlTPEjnwKkmf5/hj8K/rckgy0CEWLL EeEa5JlwamI4OIZ5VTOQWeyyvknd21bNcpbvt57CwxpeFXXebMcaytRFOOr22lxCTOe7 PF21RkgptjmV18tyg3WYAi3t6rRBaSIf/xK/2ZPSA5puNnQSQb7i8KWLypaHJpkyhkPH 36DA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=0+nohfi/AtK+wVL0U4QnYjBxYzVSMhnYhzkHqhtUxM0=; b=tBThWTdRLXKku7U6FKnwqQfz2Fn0RAmpb3xJ2Jih5WlBmdvzr5/qvME/hop6c8kMQi IxXr2ySAW8ZRVxZPfbWq6MbP9myOnDovMYblG0w0HV87dCVTd9TWq/pxbMSFhJkaD5TY 9RvUW3G9vek5nuahezUjuDBmVRGfmyMLh34YpMgwNey9yfRXorCBEYLZPnE80ozQi1VC tELNKXGMlJT65AT844r4MiZTH/InDNJY2nG71+if7hlrATrqafNSTlYSc5lqqU1ZDVlu BiSHTB39tRFmMBA5ck7rSzT+dWTL+GrrJLe0MmuMvVqFr/ieUIZIf82E7qTtZUjFJSAG vFDA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVUWf5Vc99YmogP/AwqyVSqospPWtclQScniGqZpHWW9Ec5dZNB tlD8dGH7j0fdXm4A+Aij5731HAhf X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzJoSU/lkfkY7o6RmIYo43aywxkTVk9qIlxLReDN1EiF1aBP+pKvXU9b+Z/dSn3fMu/tbyD3g== X-Received: by 2002:aa7:8dd0:: with SMTP id j16mr54423561pfr.186.1577733701662; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 11:21:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.30] (228.147.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.147.228]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j14sm47923825pgs.57.2019.12.30.11.21.40 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 30 Dec 2019 11:21:41 -0800 (PST) To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227102943.GA14015@nic.fr> <1829722692.7358.1577443983540@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227134419.GA19644@nic.fr> <295780f7-ebf3-79e4-0b2d-faaecfa0d984@nomountain.net> <7fedea81-6827-38c2-04b3-5854126b2d52@digitaldissidents.org> <6AA0059F-2D29-4A1A-B651-CB9917C06A77@frobbit.se> <1657137298.8209.1577699802014@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <1542369969.8350.1577707467021@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <35460afd-11cc-f8c7-313e-a25781865ade@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 08:21:38 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1542369969.8350.1577707467021@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 19:21:44 -0000 On 31-Dec-19 01:04, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > >> Il 30/12/2019 12:35 Christian ha scritto: >> >> >> Hi Vittorio, >> >> I don't understand your objections. >> >> Are they? > > This is not yet another discussion on DoH - yes I have problems with how it is being deployed, though mostly different from the ones you list(*), but this is not the topic here. The discussion is rather about the IETF's pretense not to be making Internet policy (DoH is just an example where this pretense has been widely challenged) Sorry, I don't get it. I've taken my own decision about DoH policy, by using a browser that has a mechanism for avoiding DoH, because I think it puts power over the integrity of the namespace into the wrong hands. Other people, in other geographies, might have an opposite policy. Many end users may not even know that they have a policy choice. This is utterly outside the control of the IETF. Earlier, you wrote: >> But, as I said, the need for global Internet policies will not go away just because we do not know how to fulfill it - they will just be decided in other ways, a huge private oligopoly being the most likely and the scariest one. Welcome to capitalism. Except that a large part of the policy landscape is set geographically by varying political systems, so what we actually have is a very complex interplay between various transnational oligopolies and ~200 political systems. Again, utterly outside the control of the IETF. In this environment, designing for resilience seems like a wise strategy. Brian > and about the idea of global Internet policy-making processes. > > > (*) if you're interested in this, here is a recent panel discussion with multiple views: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1yMZEAvS3M > From nobody Tue Dec 31 01:42:42 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DE5E1200CE for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2019 01:42:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q9OO7hxLgrgn for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2019 01:42:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x329.google.com (mail-ot1-x329.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::329]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D658E120018 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2019 01:42:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x329.google.com with SMTP id a15so49705636otf.1 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2019 01:42:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=K+ngqs1E7DwOz/EDXIlt65MC5ylHhlU0HNKnYnEAl/I=; b=Ev2XeXqu1wBAz/eoRiTGpBebboIqR4rt7uRjOHSTvXN815tozPKlBKemU2BK+mHElf wYnlgTDbe5BsMWqiv/hgpDRPlzt1y1ZXSU7zjIm5cCBeayXe/2WkErlVjyBLh3qVxTh7 GsV9gAOlpnHj5ablHawN6zIEvQAQSTtCuEm3PEqh2jwbJP7OE9Z6j0gw3sHzSzCY+DPg /p3V1VGJ8ekKInpY1VhFo1o33xkCgHVKC4mSjyajUIhOvHctMxqr/LV3LbQR3MwUUsGV yBziCn6zXYTcdo8cxhEMEIsXGLQWUwGytoJ3mvvtO4UM2uo1RN0Pt2FP/ondGnJv6ck3 Jf1Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=K+ngqs1E7DwOz/EDXIlt65MC5ylHhlU0HNKnYnEAl/I=; b=udSrr2kUmyTpXSnCEkkak7TM1tXPLDa31gmhzRPbG0kuN4IxE+Pez3bIPTefkQ00Dv 4tAUFeY5QthVX455p0u6mQxpwws35vbe01hZWE8TzBgMiIAeDZKHDqdJXRQ+o1zYKPyr a6oa20QiDR+xsqX7ikGYb7PbKRDvRquYGj8CNOZal8d1nz8N7xUzpQdTCbC+ntMomebg MuA1h0UHvu/AVcKRBNj/VvpyW48qoAT97IbgwKrWG+tRP5Y9a5z5mp4cIFr7SDf5u6hf wzIIN/uofaHjyS2cP4qntb/F6+zaDMYGcbpVl5Iru8lNLpztLxWZIqzJizt7sGJxPfKQ 4/ug== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVymxaaDPEnvKXrDkrKFZ2bgUTQM2o83K5TJo0K7wURRB/nE7ob Y7C3Z/CJ8y9WlW9t4gEwPkFqZgbEi3Do55QwdZk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzsqP+Em8KQLa+IU/1sZ4bHl7teANnALN7vvCJmCGEM27shjfm9t9ENJN7t7YopdD0etGHmNI7LoFrkrOR2YYc= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:10a:: with SMTP id i10mr75650964otp.365.1577785357123; Tue, 31 Dec 2019 01:42:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6830:1155:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 31 Dec 2019 01:42:36 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <35460afd-11cc-f8c7-313e-a25781865ade@gmail.com> References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227102943.GA14015@nic.fr> <1829722692.7358.1577443983540@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227134419.GA19644@nic.fr> <295780f7-ebf3-79e4-0b2d-faaecfa0d984@nomountain.net> <7fedea81-6827-38c2-04b3-5854126b2d52@digitaldissidents.org> <6AA0059F-2D29-4A1A-B651-CB9917C06A77@frobbit.se> <1657137298.8209.1577699802014@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <1542369969.8350.1577707467021@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <35460afd-11cc-f8c7-313e-a25781865ade@gmail.com> From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 16:42:36 +0700 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000be4420059afcc709" Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 09:42:40 -0000 --000000000000be4420059afcc709 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear architecture-discuss (Brian and Others), The term "strategy" reminds me about readings may be related: - If we go along with "cyberspace" at least there is D.D. Clark et all's "Tussle in Cyberspace: Defining Tomorrow's Internet" (IEEE/ACM Transactions on Networking, 2005) It considered "Cyberspace", tussle and the evolution of the network's technical architecture. It is referred in the present draft of "End Users" by M. Nottingham. http://groups.csail.mit.edu/ana/Publications/PubPDFs/Tussle% 20in%20Cyberspace%20Defining%20Tomorrows%20Internet%202005's%20Internet.pdf - by the term "space" of "cyberspace" we may come to a reading Jean Hillier's "Strategic Spatial Planning: a Multiplanar Methodology for Strategic Spatial Planning" (EspacesTemps.net, 2015) discussing "...strategic spatial planning in conditions of indeterminacy or uncertainty..." For its reference to a particular way of thinking language, a postructuralist way --and we remember that Internet may be understood as networks of languages-- I suppose this reading is contemporaneous... It developed a multiplanar methodology... https://www.espacestemps.net/en/articles/strategic-navigation/ Regard, Guntur Wiseno Putra Pada Selasa, 31 Desember 2019, Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> menulis: > On 31-Dec-19 01:04, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > > > >> Il 30/12/2019 12:35 Christian ha scritto: > >> > >> > >> Hi Vittorio, > >> > >> I don't understand your objections. > >> > >> Are they? > > > > This is not yet another discussion on DoH - yes I have problems with how > it is being deployed, though mostly different from the ones you list(*), > but this is not the topic here. The discussion is rather about the IETF's > pretense not to be making Internet policy (DoH is just an example where > this pretense has been widely challenged) > > Sorry, I don't get it. I've taken my own decision about DoH policy, by > using a browser that > has a mechanism for avoiding DoH, because I think it puts power over the > integrity of the namespace into the wrong hands. Other people, in other > geographies, might have an opposite policy. Many end users may not even > know that they have a policy choice. This is utterly outside the control of > the IETF. > > Earlier, you wrote: > > >> But, as I said, the need for global Internet policies will not go away > just because we do not know how to fulfill it - they will just be decided > in other ways, a huge private oligopoly being the most likely and the > scariest one. > > Welcome to capitalism. Except that a large part of the policy landscape is > set geographically by varying political systems, so what we actually have > is a very complex interplay between various transnational oligopolies and > ~200 political systems. Again, utterly outside the control of the IETF. > > In this environment, designing for resilience seems like a wise strategy. > > Brian > > > and about the idea of global Internet policy-making processes. > > > > > > (*) if you're interested in this, here is a recent panel discussion with > multiple views: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1yMZEAvS3M > > > > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > --000000000000be4420059afcc709 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear architecture-discuss (Brian and Others),

The term &= quot;strategy" reminds me about readings may be related:
- If we go along with "cyberspace" at least there is = D.D. Clark et all's "Tussle in Cyberspace: Defining Tomorrow's= Internet" (IEEE/ACM Transactions on Networking, 2005)

<= /div>
It considered "Cyberspace", tussle and the evolu= tion of the network's technical architecture. It is refer= red in the present draft of "End Users" by M. Nottingham.<= /div>






Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Selasa, 31 Desemb= er 2019, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> menulis:
On 31-Dec-19 01:04, Vittorio Bertola wrote:
>
>> Il 30/12/2019 12:35 Christian <cdel@firsthand.net> ha scritto:
>>
>>=C2=A0
>> Hi Vittorio,
>>
>> I don't understand your objections.
>>
>> Are they?
>
> This is not yet another discussion on DoH - yes I have problems with h= ow it is being deployed, though mostly different from the ones you list(*),= but this is not the topic here. The discussion is rather about the IETF= 9;s pretense not to be making Internet policy (DoH is just an example where= this pretense has been widely challenged)

Sorry, I don't get it. I've taken my own decision about DoH policy,= by using a browser that
has a mechanism for avoiding DoH, because I think it puts power over the in= tegrity of the namespace into the wrong hands. Other people, in other geogr= aphies, might have an opposite policy. Many end users may not even know tha= t they have a policy choice. This is utterly outside the control of the IET= F.

Earlier, you wrote:

>> But, as I said, the need for global Internet policies will not go = away just because we do not know how to fulfill it - they will just be deci= ded in other ways, a huge private oligopoly being the most likely and the s= cariest one.

Welcome to capitalism. Except that a large part of the policy landscape is = set geographically by varying political systems, so what we actually have i= s a very complex interplay between various transnational oligopolies and ~2= 00 political systems. Again, utterly outside the control of the IETF.

In this environment, designing for resilience seems like a wise strategy.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian

> and about the idea of global Internet policy-making processes.
>
>
> (*) if you're interested in this, here is a recent panel discussio= n with multiple views: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dd1yMZEAvS3M<= /a>
>

_______________________________________________
Architecture-discuss mailing list
Architec= ture-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discu= ss
--000000000000be4420059afcc709-- From nobody Tue Dec 31 09:20:36 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE6BA1200EB for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2019 09:20:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.219 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.219 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=firsthand.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RKsocYUa7-AK for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2019 09:20:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from tranquility.default.cdelarrinaga.uk0.bigv.io (tranquility.default.cdelarrinaga.uk0.bigv.io [IPv6:2001:41c8:51:8b8::184]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D95B120058 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2019 09:20:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=firsthand.net; s=tranquility; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:From:References:Cc:To:Subject; bh=Auab9I/JtVMo8Ird9oB7MUgs/WuQt9+QNUWNCkLdSX0=; b=cRbRflFJCyE+M9x08d91VtiaaTfDEncaAX4qkgzf/9GSumXhnhz/ygiaMLHFIdKtqVgPGmQRCAdWBbbbkoqH3ivRhTYGCFVdOXiHOFSjTktm54gPnsPBAPXTBVUkthC20Rp+OxdRWaQoWIpqUo44XDBwpU60FrT3fu4e4biNevg=; Received: from [185.3.100.169] (helo=[172.16.0.103]) by tranquility.default.cdelarrinaga.uk0.bigv.io with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1imLC1-0006Rd-MN; Tue, 31 Dec 2019 17:20:29 +0000 To: Vittorio Bertola , =?UTF-8?B?UGF0cmlrIEbDpGx0c3Ryw7Zt?= Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org References: <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227102943.GA14015@nic.fr> <1829722692.7358.1577443983540@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227134419.GA19644@nic.fr> <295780f7-ebf3-79e4-0b2d-faaecfa0d984@nomountain.net> <7fedea81-6827-38c2-04b3-5854126b2d52@digitaldissidents.org> <6AA0059F-2D29-4A1A-B651-CB9917C06A77@frobbit.se> <1657137298.8209.1577699802014@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <1542369969.8350.1577707467021@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> From: Christian Message-ID: <2b6a301a-5d2b-f4d9-f944-330012e39ffa@firsthand.net> Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 17:20:28 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.2.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1542369969.8350.1577707467021@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 17:20:35 -0000 On 30/12/2019 12:04, Vittorio Bertola wrote: >> Il 30/12/2019 12:35 Christian ha scritto: >> >> >> Hi Vittorio, >> >> I don't understand your objections. >> >> Are they? > This is not yet another discussion on DoH - yes I have problems with how it is being deployed, though mostly different from the ones you list(*), but this is not the topic here. OK > The discussion is rather about the IETF's pretense not to be making Internet policy (DoH is just an example where this pretense has been widely challenged) and about the idea of global Internet policy-making processes. > So are you talking about Internet / technical policy or Political Policy? I'd say IETF is heavily and overtly engaged in technical policy. The shift to encompass end to end security following the Snowdon revelations is a testament to that. But that is not IETF engaging in political Policy. It is not saying to the world anything more than the utility of the Internet requires dependability of communications end to end.  It is clear that political Policy failed in providing sufficient protections for users on network paths which are not secure. So it makes total sense to secure them and do so at scale. It makes no sense to have heavy duty data privacy and protection laws and for that data to be communicated routinely in the clear or for its path to be insecurely supported. Data paths have to be secured. Let's for a moment assume that IETF is determining Policy in the round and its protocols are built to reflect that. How is it then that these protocols are being used to both provide end to end connectivity through open infrastructures but also used to build national and regional firewalls such as in China, Russia etc. where that connectivity is broken and made insecure at gateway boundaries? IETF technical policy may say something like. Doing this thing will break these things - be aware. It is for political Policy to then work out what those breakages mean for society and the law. | (*) if you're interested in this, here is a recent panel discussion with multiple views: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1yMZEAvS3 So this followed ISPAs pretty ridiculous Internet villain award for DoH / Mozilla etc. Ridiculous enough for them to hastily backtrack. Just because UK ISPs  and politicians have ignored for decades people who have made architectural warnings that depending on insecure protocol paths to assert laws or manage behaviour over a network is not sustainable, as those paths will in time either be replaced with secure protocols or new technologies which in either case render the practice and potentially the enforcement of those laws to uselessness. \C From nobody Tue Dec 31 11:27:28 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 331D412001E for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2019 11:27:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06JLcslmXCKO for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2019 11:27:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from hans.rg.net (hans.rg.net [IPv6:2001:418:1::42]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7002D120013 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2019 11:27:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from hans.rg.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hans.rg.net (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id xBVJRHNS024850 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 31 Dec 2019 19:27:17 GMT (envelope-from llynch@civil-tongue.net) Received: from localhost (llynch@localhost) by hans.rg.net (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id xBVJRHfA024847; Tue, 31 Dec 2019 19:27:17 GMT (envelope-from llynch@civil-tongue.net) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 19:27:17 +0000 (UTC) From: Lucy Lynch X-X-Sender: llynch@hans.rg.net To: Stephen Farrell cc: architecture-discuss@iab.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Alpine 2.21.99999 (BSF 352 2019-06-22) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6558978127915502828==" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 19:27:26 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --===============6558978127915502828== Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 20 Dec 2019, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Hiya, > > The IAB are considering starting up a programme on Internet > resilience as described at [1]. We'd love to get feedback > on that idea, the text at [1] and to find out if people > would like to participate and what topics you might suggest > be considered (or even better, what you'd actually do work > on yourself:-). > > There's no specific deadline for this, but the IAB will > consider this further in the new year, so if you could > take a few minutes to share your thoughts on this before > or over the holidays that'd be great. > > Thanks, > S. > > > [1] https://github.com/intarchboard/resilience/ > Circling back to the top here. I think this is a fine topic for an IAB program and I took the draft charter to encompass resilience as both a technical and a design problem. I am particularly interested in this statement: Definition of resilience: 1] the capability of a strained body to recover its size and shape after deformation caused especially by compressive stress 2] an ability to recover from or adjust easily to misfortune or change This program is mostly interested in definition #2. I actually have my own concerns related to #1 as well and would hope that this program might consider the warping of the overall Internet model to accommodate currents trends or business practices. As an example - an Internet optimized for the web may not be the same internet that supports real time data collection and shared computation in the context of big science. How do we avoid closing out capabilities as we optimize for others? Narrowing of choices looks like a path to a limited and more brittle model to me. I'm sad to see the thread degenerate into mostly policy concerns when there are still fundamental design issues that need to be addressed. Policy is one way of dealing with the outcomes of design and implementation but it seems to be a follow on and this charter is proposing a more technical examination of the root problem. I could be wrong... - Lucy --===============6558978127915502828== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-ID: Content-Description: Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Architecture-discuss mailing list Architecture-discuss@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss --===============6558978127915502828==--