From nobody Sun Mar 1 03:22:52 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A7D13A0D6F for ; Sun, 1 Mar 2020 03:22:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.837 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.837 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_OBFUSCATE_05_10=0.26, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sg-rPf4PO1eJ for ; Sun, 1 Mar 2020 03:22:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x233.google.com (mail-oi1-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 069633A0D6D for ; Sun, 1 Mar 2020 03:22:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x233.google.com with SMTP id d62so7484586oia.11 for ; Sun, 01 Mar 2020 03:22:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=lpCDtqQzpkfgO6hrNMefKBSjdEADA5EzkxAKPvpuSeI=; b=jkCaZ/CW36a7ZFE6/2ri1Nj8LSG/TVXLgYfl0mUukglOoMa+r1LpfZ+ioefwzLIV8d C8f1hEru2WTbIrnqiJ3Jgi4hdq9uqpF9vX5JmxDQMwc1+D7qqFIPZNeJGOGBV0lo1Uft 6wnq2nM9FE44qyWTn6SuPX0LfdMq6AtbqikFQ3rtjZTsJUhCsXksGuOwYrUgo711zBJE tjqFPiE7mRyuJCUrtNnOdfWhli/2VDEG5eeQCcgWMA6yHaqeh25SX1XS8EUbcJUIn1aF lkZ37bqFjygU5xKtAki5VQMUKdzYdHyPkxngu42zz91ebbObuw/Gs56CgTA5qeNRnZsy SlGw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=lpCDtqQzpkfgO6hrNMefKBSjdEADA5EzkxAKPvpuSeI=; b=T8/5CjBBjH5qm9sBWE9jaWJH3hP1VM2WGVx6OtRyMHQiW6jXSUDhrDcazC8EfgRNJv AF0MkXF7KOrALAnS+ondc6vGuBcvWhShCfzIT9hacsP1IL6WowmM+IvODhOdLEcuu35x 7ODze8jEeSWrO8jnLjqc3M31e6SEYM/DUlP4NlyaTNWOU1/vuf4MPN/e1DxfvL7tkJdB 4qBikMrVtyDYa/rAA1k9C5wABTPC75iOjYzv5MpSq5YcrLo+P0dDaDti+c5sEQrKGaFQ i5nzN8+ENFyd1ygpdHzyGnxs4xquDViKRQM770x3Qfr+3eBNJfmWyDuB8/brVqAwxYJW E54A== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ1s9g5DooPivF6fW4zwXuyKO9ieO4elcJ/zLx/cgl8bz21u0eno Y48m1PAScAYA1OX7u6CXb+u7VEPm0q8qYc7pKQaZ6g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vsAuoBTP7UkYkOip2R4uOLOTXzE5XU0zO3LMLn5lYuPWb1sm877Ll8HSp/ZRO24sXFMoEWrft0+UUIW+zc+l7o= X-Received: by 2002:aca:4c02:: with SMTP id z2mr287224oia.9.1583061758810; Sun, 01 Mar 2020 03:22:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6830:1155:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Sun, 1 Mar 2020 03:22:38 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <64D42558-19A2-469E-B027-B67FB52A5279@vigilsec.com> From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 18:22:38 +0700 Message-ID: To: Russ Housley Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ca9d79059fc94954" Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] Network Architecture in the Internet Society X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2020 11:22:45 -0000 --000000000000ca9d79059fc94954 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear architecture-discuss, Tim Berners-Lee said about "networks of languages" as those with what users get engaged with the Web and the Internet: it was in "Stack of Specification" as part of the "Design Issues: Architectural and Philosophical Points"(1). So, architecturally thinking on "the Internet economy" refers us to what were ever mentioned by these "E-Flux editors" The Internet and the Economy of Languages...: Julieta Aranda, Brian Kuan Wood, and Anton Vidokle Editorial=E2=80=94=E2=80=9FLanguage and Internet=E2=80=9D (2) "... As the role of the state in ensuring the value of currency has grown weaker over the past few decades, markets have increasingly assumed the qualities of language, of a "system of signs in which the only essential thing is the union of meanings" (Saussure). The other language economy is of course the internet, where it was thought that the immaterial qualities of language would evade limits in supply and demand. But now for some reason, this promise reverses. As language becomes more free, everything else becomes incredibly expensive. This has made language, and the internet with it, a class battleground now more than ever, because it represents access to both knowledge and capital simultaneously. ...". https://www.e-flux.com/journal/45/60099/editorial-language-and-internet Note: (1) "The Internet works because of interoperability between different computers, despite different hardware, operating systems, local language context, and software supplier. Users of the web sign on to the use of these languages when they use the Internet". (TBL, "Stack of Specifications") (2) I added this source to the Open Forum Library of the Internet Society "Consolidation of the Internet: from the Socio-Economic to the Architectural" https://w3.org/DesignIssues/Stack.html Regard, Guntur Wiseno Putra Pada Selasa, 25 Februari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra menulis: > Dear architecture-discuss, > > Pekka Nikander, in "Reflections on Architecture" of the previous message, > mentioned little about "economy and information (security)": by this thre= ad > of "(Consolidation of) the Internet Economy: from the socio-economic to t= he > architectural", I wander would these raw materials of thought works for a= n > economy of the Internet: > > > "Goods and services: Here we are. What is it there...? What does happen > there...? What could we make there...? Would our sad heart --because of > stupidities/foolishness and failures-- be entertained...? Would our > passions -- for truth, justice and beauty -- be well served...? --includi= ng > of ourselves...? > > Those people either are or were great, it is said: for what they have mad= e > available to many others, for what they have made inspiring --saying abou= t > acceptances and denials by-- many others: concepts and technics. Part of > those things have been being through places and times, many countries and > being made survived for decades, for centuries... Other part of those > things have been forgotten though ever enjoyed long celebrations: and, ye= s, > there were then revelations of what were silent before... They just took > rest while kept maintained in such simplicities until other things came t= o > and take them with new hopes, new happines, new plans, new games... (It i= s > like a story on concepts in the making: with their histories, ...) > > ... > > Here we have more, here we lack of... There are others by whom we may tal= k > to and exchange with... Farewell: just take journeys... (so it is then he= re > we are in journeys or we may be there in journeys...) > > ... > > "Here we have , here we lack of": does it not represent an understanding > about "justice"...? What are about "truth" and "beauty"...? > > If it does refers us to a notion on "justice", or perhaps precisely > "natural justice", if it is how "justice" works, then how do we take our > journeys..? > > Choices and risks, benefits and costs, gains and pains.... There are rule= s > of games: is it not illusive not to think/to think otherwise that profits > are just equal to costs/sacrifices, that victories are equal to > struggles...? And, there are as well the historical as the social, as wel= l > succesive generations as consensus/collectivities/togetherness, we live > in: of rules of games, of "justice". > ... > > The circle, or the equation, of trust, responsibility, and facility... > People trust ones in such ways to take responsibilities to provide them > with goods or services accompanied by facilities to work on the > responsibilities...--including such physio- and psychoterapies of rest... > > > ...". > > > > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > Pada Senin, 24 Februari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra > menulis: > >> Dear architecture-discuss, >> >> By opening files at www.ietfjournal.org I finded this out: Among others >> this is one worked on by the IETF publication on "architecture" which >> mentioned also about "architecture-discuss" in the time of its beginning >> --I then made it part of the entry on "Consolidation of the Internet..."= at >> the Internet Society's Open Forum Library: >> >> NETWORKING RESEARCHReflections on >> >> ArchitectureBy: Pekka Nikander >> Date: >> December 2005 >> >> >> "I happen to have an architect=E2=80=99s mind. Looking at the network of= today, I >> strongly feel the pain of the current architecture=E2=80=99s cracking an= d >> squeaking. Consequently, I believe that we =E2=80=93 the wider IETF comm= unity >> responsible for Internet technology =E2=80=93 need to re-think the archi= tecture. We >> need to find a way to re-create the core of the Internet in a way that >> leads to a new era of innovation and intellectual prosperity. The highli= ght >> of my IETF64 meeting in Vancouver was that I started to see signs of >> interest and activity in the broader community to pursue such a goal. >> >> ... >> >> The IAB has recently created a new mailing list, architecture-discuss >> [15], for wider discussion of architectural issues, which I hope will >> develop into a valuable forum over time. I hope to see you there". >> >> https://www.ietfjournal.org/reflections-on-architecture >> >> >> >> >> >> Regard, >> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >> Pada Jumat, 31 Januari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra >> menulis: >> >>> Dear Russ & architecture-discuss, >>> >>> >>> I have just added Leva. T & H. Suommi's "Framework of Analyzing >>> Feasibility of Internet Protocols" to the before-mentioned list of read= ings >>> by "Add Comment" Facility in the OPEN FORUM Community Library: >>> >>> >>> ### >>> To the list of readings above (Consolidation of the Internet: from the >>> Socio-Economic to the Architectural) may I add "Framework of Analyzing >>> Feasibility of Internet Potocols" (Leva, T. & H. Suommi, the IAB Worksh= op >>> on Internet Technology Adootion and Transition 2013) which was ever to = be >>> part of architecture-discuss@ietf.org "Centralization or diversity?" >>> January 22th 2020: >>> >>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/architecture-discuss/s >>> dTkLd7q7wXyfAnjJQlNceWPr8U >>> >>> >>> ### >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Note: >>> To clarify what I said in the previous message: >>> I mean the architecture-discuss@ietf.org and the OPEN FORUM Community >>> Library may be about a networked community of reading, a networked libr= ary. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Regard, >>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> >>> Pada Jumat, 31 Januari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> menulis: >>> >>>> Dear Russ and architecture-discuss, >>>> >>>> The post in OPEN Forum Community Library is about those document save= d >>>> in the architecture-discuss mailarchive I mentioned above plus >>>> >>>> Arkko, Jarri et all., "Considerations on the Internet Consolidation >>>> and the Internet Architecture", Internet-Draft, IETF, Expired April 20= 19 >>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-iab-internet-consolidation-00 >>>> >>>> While, I have not included yet that of T. Leva and H. Suommi's... >>>> >>>> I emphasized on socio-economic and architectural learnings attempted b= y >>>> those documents there--while the post at architecture-discuss emphazis= ed on >>>> feasibility of the Internet architecture in relation with aesthetic an= d >>>> ethic experiences. >>>> >>>> This is what I saved in OPEN FORUM Community Library: >>>> >>>> "Consolidation of the Internet: From the Socio-Economic to the >>>> Architectural" >>>> >>>> This documents refer to "Consolidation in the Internet" which is of >>>> economic and architectural approaches and perspectives: >>>> >>>> - ISOC Global Internet Report Consolidation in the Internet Economy >>>> https://future.internetsociety.org/2019/wp-content/uploads/s >>>> ites/2/2019/04/InternetSociety-GlobalInternetReport-Consolid >>>> ationintheInternetEconomy.pdf >>>> - Arkko, Jarri et all., "Considerations on the Internet Consolidation >>>> and the Internet Architecture", Internet-Draft, IETF, Expired April 20= 19 >>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-iab-internet-consolidation-00 >>>> - Sullivan, Andrew, "Three Kinds of Concentration in Open Protocols", >>>> IAB-DEDR Workshop 2019 https://www.iab.org/wp-content >>>> /IAB-uploads/2019/05/p7-sulllivan-three_kinds_concentration_ >>>> ajs_dedr.pdf >>>> - Arkko, Jarri, "Centralized Architecture in Internet Architecture", >>>> Internet Draft, 2019 >>>> https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-arkko-arch-infrastructure-cent >>>> ralisation-00.txt >>>> Kutscher, Dirk, "Protocol Design and Socio-economic Realities", in the >>>> IAB-DEDR Workshop 2019 >>>> https://www.iab.org/wp-content/IAB-uploads/2019/05/p14-kutsc >>>> her-internet-design-kutscher.pdf >>>> >>>> >>>> Note: This post is related with another one in this "Open Forum": >>>> Restream: Internet Consolidation: What Lies beneath the Application >>>> Layer..." (December 14th 2019) https://connect.internetsociet >>>> y.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?Gro >>>> upId=3D67&MessageKey=3D426220c6-e41e-45c8-8872-7f0cc455f492&Comm >>>> unityKey=3D3a9fa082-a518-475d-9e7f-ecec4ffe56dd&tab=3Ddigestview >>>> er&ReturnUrl=3D%2fcommunities%2fcommunity-home%2fdigestviewer% >>>> 3fCommunityKey%3d3a9fa082-a518-475d-9e7f-ecec4ffe56dd >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Regard, >>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>> >>>> Pada Jumat, 31 Januari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>> menulis: >>>> >>>>> Dear Russ and architecture-discuss, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I am new there, I have not know muc "how to": I think one needs to >>>>> create an account in the Internet Society to join with OPEN FORUM Com= munity >>>>> to access its features: >>>>> >>>>> https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> But at this architecture-discuss, where we are now, one may simply >>>>> access its mail archives for the documents on "Consolidation of the >>>>> Internet" --so it is nothing new but such a networked community of re= ading, >>>>> such a networked library: >>>>> >>>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/architecture-discuss/s >>>>> dTkLd7q7wXyfAnjJQlNceWPr8U >>>>> >>>>> I find no search engine facility for documents at OPEN FORUM communit= y >>>>> Library while there is one at architecture-discuss mail archive. >>>>> >>>>> Regard, >>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>> >>>>> Pada Jumat, 31 Januari 2020, Russ Housley >>>>> menulis: >>>>> >>>>>> Is there a way to see the document without creating an account? >>>>>> >>>>>> Russ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jan 29, 2020, at 4:37 AM, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Dear architecture-discuss, >>>>>> >>>>>> Documents related with the current issues on "consolidation of the >>>>>> Internet" saved in the "Open Forum" community of the Internet Societ= y: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> https://connect.internetsociety.org/viewdocument/consolidati >>>>>> on-of-the-internet-from?CommunityKey=3D3a9fa082-a518-475d-9e7f >>>>>> -ecec4ffe56dd&tab=3Dlibrarydocuments#ItemCommentPanel >>>>>> >>>>>> Regard, >>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> --000000000000ca9d79059fc94954 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear architecture-discuss,

Tim Berners-Lee said about &q= uot;networks of languages" as those with what users get engaged with t= he Web and the Internet: it was in "Stack of Specification" as pa= rt of the "Design Issues: Architectural and Philosophical Points"= (1). So, architecturally thinking on "the Internet economy" refer= s us to what were ever mentioned by these "E-Flux editors"
<= div>
The Internet and the Economy of Lang= uages...:

Julieta Aranda, Brian Kuan Wood, and Anton Vidokle

Editorial=E2=80=94=E2=80=9F= Language and Internet=E2=80=9D (2)

"...

As the role of the state= in ensuring the value of currency has grown weaker over the past few decad= es, markets have increasingly assumed the qualities of language, of a "= ;system of signs in which the only essential thing is the union of meanings= " (Saussure). The other language economy is of course the internet, wh= ere it was thought that the immaterial qualities of language would evade li= mits in supply and demand. But now for some reason, this promise reverses. = As language becomes more free, everything else becomes incredibly expensive= . This has made language, and the internet with it, a class battleground no= w more than ever, because it represents access to both knowledge and capita= l simultaneously.

...".

https://www.e-flux.com/<= wbr>journal/45/60099/editorial-language-and-internet





=





=





=
Note:

(1) =C2=A0"The Internet works because of interoperability between diffe= rent computers, despite different hardware, operating systems, local langua= ge context, and software supplier. Users of the web sign on to the use of t= hese languages when they use the Internet". (TBL, "Stack of Speci= fications")

(2) I added this source to the Op= en Forum Library of the Internet Society "Consolidation of the Interne= t: from the Socio-Economic to the Architectural"


https:/= /w3.org/DesignIssues/Stack.html=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0

<= /div>

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada = Selasa, 25 Februari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear architecture-discuss,

Pekka= Nikander, in "Reflections on Architecture" of the previous messa= ge, mentioned little about "economy and information (security)": = by this thread of "(Consolidation of) the Internet Economy: from the s= ocio-economic to the architectural", I wander would these raw material= s of thought works for an economy of the Internet:


"Goods and services: Here we are. What is it there...?= What does happen there...? What could we make there...? Would our sad hear= t --because of stupidities/foolishness and failures-- be entertained...? Wo= uld our passions -- for truth, justice and beauty -- be well served...? --i= ncluding of ourselves...?

Those people either are or were great, it is said: for what they have made = available to many others, for what they have made inspiring --saying about = acceptances and denials by-- many others: concepts and technics. Part of th= ose things have been being through places and times, many countries and bei= ng made survived for decades, for centuries... Other part of those things h= ave been forgotten though ever enjoyed long celebrations: and, yes, there w= ere then revelations of what were silent before... They just took rest whil= e kept maintained in such simplicities until other things came to and take = them with new hopes, new happines, new plans, new games... (It is like a st= ory on concepts in the making: with their histories, ...)

...

Here we have more, here we lack of... There are others by whom we may talk = to and exchange with...=C2=A0Farewell: just take journeys... (so it is then= here we are in journeys or we may be there in journeys...)

...

"Here we have , here we lack of": does it not represent an unders= tanding about "justice"...? What are about "truth" and = "beauty"...?

If it does refers us to a notion on "justice", or perhaps precise= ly "natural justice", if it is how "justice" works, the= n how do we take our journeys..?

Choices and risks, benefits and co= sts, gains and pains.... There are rules of games: is it not illusive not t= o think/to think otherwise that profits are just equal to costs/sacrifices,= that victories are equal to struggles...? And, there are as well the histo= rical as the social, as well succesive generations as consensus/collectivit= ies/togetherness, we live in: of rules of games, of "justice"= ;.=C2=A0
...

The circle, or the equation, of trust, responsibility, and facility... = People trust ones in such ways to take responsibilities to provide them wit= h goods or services accompanied by facilities to work on the responsibiliti= es...--including such physio- and psychoterapies of rest...=C2=A0


...".



Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Senin, 24 Februari 2020, Guntur Wi= seno Putra <gseno= pu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear archit= ecture-discuss,

By opening files at www.ietfjournal.org I finded this = out: Among others this is one worked on by the IETF publication on "ar= chitecture" which mentioned also about "architecture-discuss"= ; in the time of its beginning --I then made it part of the entry on "= Consolidation of the Internet..." at the Internet Society's Open F= orum Library:

NETWORKING RESEARCH

Reflections on

Architecture

By:=C2=A0P= ekka Nikander

Date: December 2005


<= span style=3D"color:rgb(34,31,31);font-family:Roboto;font-style:normal;lett= er-spacing:normal;line-height:32px;text-transform:none">"I happen to h= ave an architect=E2=80=99s mind. Looking at the network of today, I strongl= y feel the pain of the current architecture=E2=80=99s cracking and squeakin= g. Consequently, I believe that we =E2=80=93 the wider IETF community respo= nsible for Internet technology =E2=80=93 need to re-think the architecture.= We need to find a way to re-create the core of the Internet in a way that = leads to a new era of innovation and intellectual prosperity. The highlight= of my IETF64 meeting in Vancouver was that I started to see signs of inter= est and activity in the broader community to pursue such a goal.

...

T= he IAB has recently created a new mailing list, architecture-discuss [15], = for wider discussion of architectural issues, which I hope will develop int= o a valuable forum over time. I hope to see you there".

https://www.ietfjournal.org/reflections-on-architecture


<= div style=3D"font-size:16px;line-height:24px;padding:0px 0.75rem;float:left= ;width:311.59375px;margin-left:auto">


Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Juma= t, 31 Januari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear Russ & architecture-discuss,

=
I have just added Leva. T & H. Suommi's "Framew= ork of Analyzing Feasibility of Internet Protocols" to the before-ment= ioned list of readings by "Add Comment" Facility in the OPEN FORU= M Community Library:


###
= To the list of readings above (Consolidation of the Internet: from the Soc= io-Economic to the Architectural) may I add "Framework of Analyzing Fe= asibility of Internet Potocols" (Leva, T. & H. Suommi, the IAB Wor= kshop on Internet Technology Adootion and Transition 2013) which was ever t= o be part of architecture-discuss@ietf.org "Centralization or diversity?&q= uot; January 22th 2020:

http= s://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/architecture-discuss/sdTkLd7q7w= XyfAnjJQlNceWPr8U


##= #




Not= e:=C2=A0
To clarify what I said in the previous message:=C2=A0
I mean the architecture-discuss@ietf.org and the OPEN FORUM Community = Library may be about a networked community of reading, a networked library.=





=

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada= Jumat, 31 Januari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear Russ and architecture-discuss,

The post =C2=A0in OPEN Forum Community Library is about those document s= aved in the architecture-discuss mailarchive I mentioned above plus=C2=A0

=C2=A0Arkko, Jarri et all., &q= uot;Considerations on the Internet Consolidation and the Internet Architect= ure", Internet-Draft, IETF, Expired April 2019 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-iab-internet-consolidat= ion-00=C2=A0

While, I have not in= cluded yet that of T. Leva and H. Suommi's...

I emphasized on socio-economic and architectural learnings attempted= by those documents there--while the post at architecture-discuss emphazise= d on feasibility of the Internet architecture in relation with aesthetic an= d ethic experiences.

This is what I saved in OPEN = FORUM Community Library:

"Consolidation of th= e Internet: From the Socio-Economic to the Architectural"
This documents refer to = "Consolidation in the Internet" which is of economic and architec= tural approaches and perspectives:

- ISOC Global Internet Report Consolidation in the Internet Economy https://future.internetsociety.org/2019/wp= -content/uploads/sites/2/2019/04/InternetSociety-GlobalInternetRe= port-ConsolidationintheInternetEconomy.pdf=C2=A0
- Arkko, Jarri et all., "Considerations= on the Internet Consolidation and the Internet Architecture", Interne= t-Draft, IETF, Expired April 2019 https://tools.ie= tf.org/html/draft-arkko-iab-internet-consolidation-00=C2=A0
- Sullivan, Andrew, "Thre= e Kinds of Concentration in Open Protocols", IAB-DEDR Workshop 2019 https://www.iab.org= /wp-content/IAB-uploads/2019/05/p7-sulllivan-three_kinds_concentr= ation_ajs_dedr.pdf=C2=A0
- Arkko, Jarri, "Centralized Architecture in Internet Architectur= e", Internet Draft, 2019=C2=A0
https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-= arkko-arch-infrastructure-centralisation-00.txt
Kutscher, Dirk, "Protocol Design and Socio= -economic Realities", in the IAB-DEDR Workshop 2019
https://www.iab.org/wp-content/IAB-uploads/2019/05/p14-kutscher-= internet-design-kutscher.pdf


Note: This post is related w= ith another one in this "Open Forum": Restream: Internet Consolid= ation: What Lies beneath the Application Layer..." (December 14th 2019= ) https://connect.internetsociety.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?GroupId=3D67&MessageKey=3D426220c6-e4= 1e-45c8-8872-7f0cc455f492&CommunityKey=3D3a9fa082-a518-475d-9= e7f-ecec4ffe56dd&tab=3Ddigestviewer&ReturnUrl=3D%2fcommun= ities%2fcommunity-home%2fdigestviewer%3fCommunityKey%3d3a9fa082-a= 518-475d-9e7f-ecec4ffe56dd






Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pad= a Jumat, 31 Januari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear Russ and architecture-discuss,=C2=A0

<= /div>

I am new there, I have not know muc "how to": = I think one needs to create an account in the Internet Society to join with= OPEN FORUM Community to access its features:

https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/


But at this architecture-discuss, where we are now, one may simply acce= ss its mail archives for the documents on "Consolidation of the Intern= et" --so it is nothing new but such a networked community of reading, = such a networked library:

https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/architecture-discuss/sdTkLd7q7wXyfAnjJQlNceWPr8U

I find no search engine facility for documents at OPEN FORUM community Libr= ary while there is one at architecture-discuss mail archive.
=
Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Jum= at, 31 Januari 2020, Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> menulis:
Is there a way to see the document without creating an account?
Russ


= On Jan 29, 2020, at 4:37 AM, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> wrote:

=
Dear architecture-discuss,

Documents related with t= he current issues on "consolidation of the Internet" saved in the= "Open Forum" community of the Internet Society:

--000000000000ca9d79059fc94954-- From nobody Mon Mar 2 22:56:55 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 562213A19C2 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 2020 22:56:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.837 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.837 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_OBFUSCATE_05_10=0.26, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K373RuHdtJeI for ; Mon, 2 Mar 2020 22:56:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x234.google.com (mail-oi1-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D2D953A19C0 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 2020 22:56:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x234.google.com with SMTP id p125so1921740oif.10 for ; Mon, 02 Mar 2020 22:56:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=khF8/Sfno7a9iFP9VcSK8KjyNsNb/Y6X5URAzrTZ04A=; b=VSzcZ00kwEZziHA+H68JFBjyn2PURq9v1EMC39ia4+W9JYt9HOawXajCdN1YQqkfqQ 4z1RZ8aDpFMl0m3tQP89adANc6SqBCsSsnliz/OI6ANcBNQPL1tulX7SOazl8IXsokSd N0Cx+4UNAuAOd2KlSDjgkQJI6OuXczOIF7cz+frTa6b1dcMdoWfEKT7v8SlujebIshr+ m81f1/Bw8OyUojgNf9LbdUaFWf6SSV+OVbI6qojkB6QCuIUZt1MQlQh5LiweakQMNYIW wbbvrHdxpEPM7mDQ6b3Lf9EkETfeJDyHm75jv84RcxAgfzRDJD8q02ZYg1kp8Pn09Hiy 7pww== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=khF8/Sfno7a9iFP9VcSK8KjyNsNb/Y6X5URAzrTZ04A=; b=UafkGxqSsHG2r7DaKq3sKlvN7+xSKDwoOMQ6Da9y3O+1vn1t+WNLdbKoJiKBD1T9DE 1r9UUSAZ97p0RMH6cpoI+Sx5x/CwrPOSRYpsV8wo3bvbeCy4RN3V1oVaW2ACM/zPiCdk 6661SLk3Jvwm/r/mpP1HOfGbpBEUvSoSgVaN1gGq/bagBU1Q3BaWTDXBdPjCXak1D7cV WDkVtJmlg/HZDagkaeTFMWwVxk0iWFR7My5a+uCW9rHO/bqVfCZarPo6VifRzXOBlkyf yffJfrA7FfL642TOztozdSZtpsZD7vRR5270eEIk85ymKdN2mNNzGAwB2ou4qwT6ZoS9 Pykw== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ3FXEQPwTKZwBsOdw2HPU9CBUgeLJ7UVtRtHaL2w4qfXMrVmIE2 W8iXt2V41v91UYK+ciW3+esxbhRN8G346xyQANYg4Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vv67l1x1B29O8ljXaV6jB3DemoElpCKIvIPyh6jEjniOjOCsaj+myB60ub2/nnTezu517jQXqWiOlaURE/7wYo= X-Received: by 2002:a54:4396:: with SMTP id u22mr1539906oiv.128.1583218606854; Mon, 02 Mar 2020 22:56:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6830:1155:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Mon, 2 Mar 2020 22:56:46 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <64D42558-19A2-469E-B027-B67FB52A5279@vigilsec.com> From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 13:56:46 +0700 Message-ID: To: Russ Housley Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a9d7ce059fedce5d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Network Architecture in the Internet Society X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2020 06:56:53 -0000 --000000000000a9d7ce059fedce5d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear architecture-discuss, Cyberspace, geography, economy and architecture: In "architecture" there are a moment to consider "principles that can be utilized to create order in an architectural composition" (F. D. K. Ching, "Architecture: Form, Space and Order", John Wiley & Sons, New Jersey & Canada, 2007, p. 338) among others there is "rythm" referring to "any movement characterized by a patterned recurrence of elements or motifs at regular or irregular intervals" (ibid., p. 382). Nikander ever noted the importance of noticing moments of repeatances ("Reflections on Architecture"). # A bibliography *) Space Economy Pour faire r=C3=A9f=C3=A9rence =C3=A0 cet article (ISO 690) Kevin Cox, =C2=AB The State and Varieties of Space Economy. =C2=BB, Espaces= Temps.net [En ligne], Travaux, 2018 | Mis en ligne le 9 ao=C3=BBt 2018, consult=C3=A9= le 09.08.2018. URL : https://www.espacestemps.net/a rticles/the-state-and-varieties-of-space-economy/ ; DOI : 10.26151/xpk0-5t5= 3 *) Economy of Rythm Pour faire r=C3=A9f=C3=A9rence =C3=A0 cet article (ISO 690) Yves Crozet, =C2=AB =C3=89conomie des rythmes urbains. =C2=BB, EspacesTemps= .net [En ligne], Travaux, 2019 | Mis en ligne le 9 mai 2019, consult=C3=A9 le 09.05.= 2019. URL : https://www.espacestemps.net/articles/economie-des-rythmes-urbains/ ; DOI : 10.26151/espacestemps.net-9a82-fr23 *) Rythm analysis - Pour faire r=C3=A9f=C3=A9rence =C3=A0 cet article (ISO 690) Guillaume Drevon, Luc Gwiazdzinski, Vincent Kaufmann et Luca Pattaroni, =C2= =AB Rythmes de vie(s), rythmes de ville(s). =C2=BB, EspacesTemps.net [En ligne]= , Traverses, 2018 | Mis en ligne le 21 d=C3=A9cembre 2018, consult=C3=A9 le 2= 1.12.2018. URL : https://www.espacestemps.net/articles/rythmes-de-vies-rythme s-de-villes/ ; DOI : 10.26151/espacestemps.net-m2z4-6535 - Pour faire r=C3=A9f=C3=A9rence =C3=A0 cet article (ISO 690) Maie G=C3=A9rardot, =C2=AB Penser en rythmes. =C2=BB, EspacesTemps.net [En = ligne], Travaux, 2007 | Mis en ligne le 8 d=C3=A9cembre 2007, consult=C3=A9 le 08.1= 2.2007. URL : https://www.espacestemps.net/articles/penser-en-rythmes/ # (Problems of) Methods of Readings It is supposedly interesting: notions tried in the bibliographies --but I red it at glance so far: a guidance to arrive at the above bibligraphies I need to make: (Request for) Comments is about commenting texts & Hyper Text (Transfer Protocol) is also about a technology may be related with such an understanding on reality as text (1): To the above bibliographies/texts there should be critical readings which is about interpretations and evaluations --if it is especially about planning/programming-- based on contexts which are among others real conditions --social, historical and other ones-- of readers. NOTE: - Hyperreality: reality as text. I tried to elaborate it in https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-informationarchitecture/2020Jan= /0004.html Regard, Guntur Wiseno Putra Pada Minggu, 01 Maret 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra menulis= : > Dear architecture-discuss, > > Tim Berners-Lee said about "networks of languages" as those with what > users get engaged with the Web and the Internet: it was in "Stack of > Specification" as part of the "Design Issues: Architectural and > Philosophical Points"(1). So, architecturally thinking on "the Internet > economy" refers us to what were ever mentioned by these "E-Flux editors" > > The Internet and the Economy of Languages...: > > Julieta Aranda, Brian Kuan Wood, and Anton Vidokle > Editorial=E2=80=94=E2=80=9FLanguage and Internet=E2=80=9D (2) > > "... > > As the role of the state in ensuring the value of currency has grown > weaker over the past few decades, markets have increasingly assumed the > qualities of language, of a "system of signs in which the only essential > thing is the union of meanings" (Saussure). The other language economy is > of course the internet, where it was thought that the immaterial qualitie= s > of language would evade limits in supply and demand. But now for some > reason, this promise reverses. As language becomes more free, everything > else becomes incredibly expensive. This has made language, and the intern= et > with it, a class battleground now more than ever, because it represents > access to both knowledge and capital simultaneously. > > ...". > > https://www.e-flux.com/journal/45/60099/editorial-language-and-internet > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Note: > > (1) "The Internet works because of interoperability between different > computers, despite different hardware, operating systems, local language > context, and software supplier. Users of the web sign on to the use of > these languages when they use the Internet". (TBL, "Stack of > Specifications") > > (2) I added this source to the Open Forum Library of the Internet Society > "Consolidation of the Internet: from the Socio-Economic to the > Architectural" > > > https://w3.org/DesignIssues/Stack.html > > > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > Pada Selasa, 25 Februari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra > menulis: > >> Dear architecture-discuss, >> >> Pekka Nikander, in "Reflections on Architecture" of the previous message= , >> mentioned little about "economy and information (security)": by this thr= ead >> of "(Consolidation of) the Internet Economy: from the socio-economic to = the >> architectural", I wander would these raw materials of thought works for = an >> economy of the Internet: >> >> >> "Goods and services: Here we are. What is it there...? What does happen >> there...? What could we make there...? Would our sad heart --because of >> stupidities/foolishness and failures-- be entertained...? Would our >> passions -- for truth, justice and beauty -- be well served...? --includ= ing >> of ourselves...? >> >> Those people either are or were great, it is said: for what they have >> made available to many others, for what they have made inspiring --sayin= g >> about acceptances and denials by-- many others: concepts and technics. P= art >> of those things have been being through places and times, many countries >> and being made survived for decades, for centuries... Other part of thos= e >> things have been forgotten though ever enjoyed long celebrations: and, y= es, >> there were then revelations of what were silent before... They just took >> rest while kept maintained in such simplicities until other things came = to >> and take them with new hopes, new happines, new plans, new games... (It = is >> like a story on concepts in the making: with their histories, ...) >> >> ... >> >> Here we have more, here we lack of... There are others by whom we may >> talk to and exchange with... Farewell: just take journeys... (so it is t= hen >> here we are in journeys or we may be there in journeys...) >> >> ... >> >> "Here we have , here we lack of": does it not represent an understanding >> about "justice"...? What are about "truth" and "beauty"...? >> >> If it does refers us to a notion on "justice", or perhaps precisely >> "natural justice", if it is how "justice" works, then how do we take our >> journeys..? >> >> Choices and risks, benefits and costs, gains and pains.... There are >> rules of games: is it not illusive not to think/to think otherwise that >> profits are just equal to costs/sacrifices, that victories are equal to >> struggles...? And, there are as well the historical as the social, as we= ll >> succesive generations as consensus/collectivities/togetherness, we live >> in: of rules of games, of "justice". >> ... >> >> The circle, or the equation, of trust, responsibility, and facility... >> People trust ones in such ways to take responsibilities to provide them >> with goods or services accompanied by facilities to work on the >> responsibilities...--including such physio- and psychoterapies of rest..= . >> >> >> ...". >> >> >> >> Regard, >> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >> Pada Senin, 24 Februari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra >> menulis: >> >>> Dear architecture-discuss, >>> >>> By opening files at www.ietfjournal.org I finded this out: Among others >>> this is one worked on by the IETF publication on "architecture" which >>> mentioned also about "architecture-discuss" in the time of its beginnin= g >>> --I then made it part of the entry on "Consolidation of the Internet...= " at >>> the Internet Society's Open Forum Library: >>> >>> NETWORKING RESEARCHReflections on >>> >>> ArchitectureBy: Pekka Nikander >>> Date: >>> December 2005 >>> >>> >>> "I happen to have an architect=E2=80=99s mind. Looking at the network o= f today, >>> I strongly feel the pain of the current architecture=E2=80=99s cracking= and >>> squeaking. Consequently, I believe that we =E2=80=93 the wider IETF com= munity >>> responsible for Internet technology =E2=80=93 need to re-think the arch= itecture. We >>> need to find a way to re-create the core of the Internet in a way that >>> leads to a new era of innovation and intellectual prosperity. The highl= ight >>> of my IETF64 meeting in Vancouver was that I started to see signs of >>> interest and activity in the broader community to pursue such a goal. >>> >>> ... >>> >>> The IAB has recently created a new mailing list, architecture-discuss >>> [15], for wider discussion of architectural issues, which I hope will >>> develop into a valuable forum over time. I hope to see you there". >>> >>> https://www.ietfjournal.org/reflections-on-architecture >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Regard, >>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> >>> Pada Jumat, 31 Januari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> menulis: >>> >>>> Dear Russ & architecture-discuss, >>>> >>>> >>>> I have just added Leva. T & H. Suommi's "Framework of Analyzing >>>> Feasibility of Internet Protocols" to the before-mentioned list of rea= dings >>>> by "Add Comment" Facility in the OPEN FORUM Community Library: >>>> >>>> >>>> ### >>>> To the list of readings above (Consolidation of the Internet: from the >>>> Socio-Economic to the Architectural) may I add "Framework of Analyzing >>>> Feasibility of Internet Potocols" (Leva, T. & H. Suommi, the IAB Works= hop >>>> on Internet Technology Adootion and Transition 2013) which was ever to= be >>>> part of architecture-discuss@ietf.org "Centralization or diversity?" >>>> January 22th 2020: >>>> >>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/architecture-discuss/s >>>> dTkLd7q7wXyfAnjJQlNceWPr8U >>>> >>>> >>>> ### >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Note: >>>> To clarify what I said in the previous message: >>>> I mean the architecture-discuss@ietf.org and the OPEN FORUM Community >>>> Library may be about a networked community of reading, a networked lib= rary. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Regard, >>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>> >>>> Pada Jumat, 31 Januari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>> menulis: >>>> >>>>> Dear Russ and architecture-discuss, >>>>> >>>>> The post in OPEN Forum Community Library is about those document >>>>> saved in the architecture-discuss mailarchive I mentioned above plus >>>>> >>>>> Arkko, Jarri et all., "Considerations on the Internet Consolidation >>>>> and the Internet Architecture", Internet-Draft, IETF, Expired April 2= 019 >>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-iab-internet-consolidation-00 >>>>> >>>>> While, I have not included yet that of T. Leva and H. Suommi's... >>>>> >>>>> I emphasized on socio-economic and architectural learnings attempted >>>>> by those documents there--while the post at architecture-discuss emph= azised >>>>> on feasibility of the Internet architecture in relation with aestheti= c and >>>>> ethic experiences. >>>>> >>>>> This is what I saved in OPEN FORUM Community Library: >>>>> >>>>> "Consolidation of the Internet: From the Socio-Economic to the >>>>> Architectural" >>>>> >>>>> This documents refer to "Consolidation in the Internet" which is of >>>>> economic and architectural approaches and perspectives: >>>>> >>>>> - ISOC Global Internet Report Consolidation in the Internet Economy >>>>> https://future.internetsociety.org/2019/wp-content/uploads/s >>>>> ites/2/2019/04/InternetSociety-GlobalInternetReport-Consolid >>>>> ationintheInternetEconomy.pdf >>>>> - Arkko, Jarri et all., "Considerations on the Internet Consolidation >>>>> and the Internet Architecture", Internet-Draft, IETF, Expired April 2= 019 >>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-iab-internet-consolidation-00 >>>>> - Sullivan, Andrew, "Three Kinds of Concentration in Open Protocols", >>>>> IAB-DEDR Workshop 2019 https://www.iab.org/wp-content >>>>> /IAB-uploads/2019/05/p7-sulllivan-three_kinds_concentration_ >>>>> ajs_dedr.pdf >>>>> - Arkko, Jarri, "Centralized Architecture in Internet Architecture", >>>>> Internet Draft, 2019 >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-arkko-arch-infrastructure-cent >>>>> ralisation-00.txt >>>>> Kutscher, Dirk, "Protocol Design and Socio-economic Realities", in th= e >>>>> IAB-DEDR Workshop 2019 >>>>> https://www.iab.org/wp-content/IAB-uploads/2019/05/p14-kutsc >>>>> her-internet-design-kutscher.pdf >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Note: This post is related with another one in this "Open Forum": >>>>> Restream: Internet Consolidation: What Lies beneath the Application >>>>> Layer..." (December 14th 2019) https://connect.internetsociet >>>>> y.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?Gro >>>>> upId=3D67&MessageKey=3D426220c6-e41e-45c8-8872-7f0cc455f492&Comm >>>>> unityKey=3D3a9fa082-a518-475d-9e7f-ecec4ffe56dd&tab=3Ddigestview >>>>> er&ReturnUrl=3D%2fcommunities%2fcommunity-home%2fdigestviewer% >>>>> 3fCommunityKey%3d3a9fa082-a518-475d-9e7f-ecec4ffe56dd >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Regard, >>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>> >>>>> Pada Jumat, 31 Januari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>> menulis: >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Russ and architecture-discuss, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I am new there, I have not know muc "how to": I think one needs to >>>>>> create an account in the Internet Society to join with OPEN FORUM Co= mmunity >>>>>> to access its features: >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> But at this architecture-discuss, where we are now, one may simply >>>>>> access its mail archives for the documents on "Consolidation of the >>>>>> Internet" --so it is nothing new but such a networked community of r= eading, >>>>>> such a networked library: >>>>>> >>>>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/architecture-discuss/s >>>>>> dTkLd7q7wXyfAnjJQlNceWPr8U >>>>>> >>>>>> I find no search engine facility for documents at OPEN FORUM >>>>>> community Library while there is one at architecture-discuss mail ar= chive. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regard, >>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>> >>>>>> Pada Jumat, 31 Januari 2020, Russ Housley >>>>>> menulis: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Is there a way to see the document without creating an account? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Russ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jan 29, 2020, at 4:37 AM, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear architecture-discuss, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Documents related with the current issues on "consolidation of the >>>>>>> Internet" saved in the "Open Forum" community of the Internet Socie= ty: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://connect.internetsociety.org/viewdocument/consolidati >>>>>>> on-of-the-internet-from?CommunityKey=3D3a9fa082-a518-475d-9e7f >>>>>>> -ecec4ffe56dd&tab=3Dlibrarydocuments#ItemCommentPanel >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regard, >>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --000000000000a9d7ce059fedce5d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear architecture-discuss,



Cyberspace, geography, economy and architecture:

=

In "architecture" there are a moment to consi= der "principles that can be utilized to create order in an architectur= al composition" (F. D. K. Ching, "Architecture: Form, Space and O= rder", John Wiley & Sons, New Jersey & Canada, 2007, p. 338) a= mong others there is "rythm" referring to "any movement char= acterized by a patterned recurrence of elements or motifs at regular or irr= egular intervals" (ibid., p. 382). Nikander ever noted the importance = of noticing moments of repeatances ("Reflections on Architecture"= ).

# A bibliography

= *) Space Economy

Pour faire r=C3=A9f=C3=A9rence = =C3=A0 cet article (ISO 690)

Kevin Cox, =C2=AB The State and Varieti= es of Space Economy. =C2=BB, EspacesTemps.net [En ligne], Travaux, 2018 | M= is en ligne le 9 ao=C3=BBt 2018, consult=C3=A9 le 09.08.2018. URL :=C2=A0https://www.espacestemps.net/articles= /the-state-and-varieties-of-space-economy/=C2=A0; DOI : 10.26151/x= pk0-5t53

*) Economy of Rythm

Pou= r faire r=C3=A9f=C3=A9rence =C3=A0 cet article (ISO 690)

Yves Crozet= , =C2=AB =C3=89conomie des rythmes urbains. =C2=BB, EspacesTemps.net [En li= gne], Travaux, 2019 | Mis en ligne le 9 mai 2019, consult=C3=A9 le 09.05.20= 19. URL :=C2=A0https://www.espacestemps.net/art= icles/economie-des-rythmes-urbains/=C2=A0; DOI : 10.26151/espacest= emps.net-9a82-fr23


*) Ryth= m analysis

- Pour faire r=C3=A9f=C3=A9rence = =C3=A0 cet article (ISO 690)

Guillaume Drevon, Luc Gwiazdzinski, V= incent Kaufmann et Luca Pattaroni, =C2=AB Rythmes de vie(s), rythmes de vil= le(s). =C2=BB, EspacesTemps.net [En ligne], Traverses, 2018 | Mis en ligne = le 21 d=C3=A9cembre 2018, consult=C3=A9 le 21.12.2018. URL :=C2=A0https://www.espacestemps.net/articles/rythmes-de-= vies-rythmes-de-villes/=C2=A0; DOI : 10.26151/espacestemps.net-m2z= 4-6535

- Pour faire r=C3=A9f=C3=A9rence =C3=A0 = cet article (ISO 690)

Maie G=C3=A9rardot, =C2=AB Penser e= n rythmes. =C2=BB, EspacesTemps.net [En ligne], Travaux, 2007 | Mis en lign= e le 8 d=C3=A9cembre 2007, consult=C3=A9 le 08.12.2007. URL :=C2=A0https://www.espacestemps.net/articles/penser-en-rythmes/=C2= =A0

# (Problems of) Methods of Readings
<= div>
It is supposedly interesting: notions tried in the bibli= ographies --but I red it at glance so far: a guidance to arrive at the abov= e bibligraphies I need to make:

(Request for) Comm= ents is about commenting texts & Hyper Text (Transfer Protocol) is also= about a technology may be related with such an understanding on reality as= text (1): To the above bibliographies/texts there should be critical readi= ngs which is about interpretations and evaluations --if it is especially ab= out planning/programming-- based on contexts which are among others real co= nditions --social, historical and other ones-- of readers.


NOTE:

- Hyperreality: real= ity as text. I tried to elaborate it in



Reg= ard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra



Pada M= inggu, 01 Maret 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
The Internet and the Economy of La= nguages...:

Julieta Aranda, Brian Kuan Wood, and Anton Vidokle
=

Editorial=E2=80=94=E2=80= =9FLanguage and Internet=E2=80=9D (2)

"...

As the role of the st= ate in ensuring the value of currency has grown weaker over the past few de= cades, markets have increasingly assumed the qualities of language, of a &q= uot;system of signs in which the only essential thing is the union of meani= ngs" (Saussure). The other language economy is of course the internet,= where it was thought that the immaterial qualities of language would evade= limits in supply and demand. But now for some reason, this promise reverse= s. As language becomes more free, everything else becomes incredibly expens= ive. This has made language, and the internet with it, a class battleground= now more than ever, because it represents access to both knowledge and cap= ital simultaneously.

...".
https://www.e-flux.co= m/journal/45/60099/editorial-language-and-internet

=



<= br>




<= br>




<= br>
Note:

(1) =C2=A0"The Internet works because of interoperability between di= fferent computers, despite different hardware, operating systems, local lan= guage context, and software supplier. Users of the web sign on to the use o= f these languages when they use the Internet". (TBL, "Stack of Sp= ecifications")

=
(2) I added this source to the= Open Forum Library of the Internet Society "Consolidation of the Inte= rnet: from the Socio-Economic to the Architectural"
<= div style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:14px;line-height:22.120000839233= 4px">

https:= //w3.org/DesignIssues/Stack.html=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0

=

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada= Selasa, 25 Februari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear architecture-discuss,

Pekk= a Nikander, in "Reflections on Architecture" of the previous mess= age, mentioned little about "economy and information (security)":= by this thread of "(Consolidation of) the Internet Economy: from the = socio-economic to the architectural", I wander would these raw materia= ls of thought works for an economy of the Internet:


"Goods and services: Here we are. What is it there...= ? What does happen there...? What could we make there...? Would our sad hea= rt --because of stupidities/foolishness and failures-- be entertained...? W= ould our passions -- for truth, justice and beauty -- be well served...? --= including of ourselves...?

Those people either are or were great, it is said: for what they have made = available to many others, for what they have made inspiring --saying about = acceptances and denials by-- many others: concepts and technics. Part of th= ose things have been being through places and times, many countries and bei= ng made survived for decades, for centuries... Other part of those things h= ave been forgotten though ever enjoyed long celebrations: and, yes, there w= ere then revelations of what were silent before... They just took rest whil= e kept maintained in such simplicities until other things came to and take = them with new hopes, new happines, new plans, new games... (It is like a st= ory on concepts in the making: with their histories, ...)

...

Here we have more, here we lack of... There are others by whom we may talk = to and exchange with...=C2=A0Farewell: just take journeys... (so it is then= here we are in journeys or we may be there in journeys...)

...

"Here we have , here we lack of": does it not represent an unders= tanding about "justice"...? What are about "truth" and = "beauty"...?

If it does refers us to a notion on "justice", or perhaps precise= ly "natural justice", if it is how "justice" works, the= n how do we take our journeys..?

Choices and risks, benefits and co= sts, gains and pains.... There are rules of games: is it not illusive not t= o think/to think otherwise that profits are just equal to costs/sacrifices,= that victories are equal to struggles...? And, there are as well the histo= rical as the social, as well succesive generations as consensus/collectivit= ies/togetherness, we live in: of rules of games, of "justice"= ;.=C2=A0
...

The circle, or the equation, of trust, responsibility, and facility... = People trust ones in such ways to take responsibilities to provide them wit= h goods or services accompanied by facilities to work on the responsibiliti= es...--including such physio- and psychoterapies of rest...=C2=A0


...".



Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Senin, 24 Februari 2020, Guntur Wi= seno Putra <gseno= pu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear archit= ecture-discuss,

By opening files at www.ietfjournal.org I finded this = out: Among others this is one worked on by the IETF publication on "ar= chitecture" which mentioned also about "architecture-discuss"= ; in the time of its beginning --I then made it part of the entry on "= Consolidation of the Internet..." at the Internet Society's Open F= orum Library:

NETWORKING RESEARCH

Reflections on

Architecture

By:=C2=A0P= ekka Nikander

Date: December 2005


<= span style=3D"color:rgb(34,31,31);font-family:Roboto;font-style:normal;lett= er-spacing:normal;line-height:32px;text-transform:none">"I happen to h= ave an architect=E2=80=99s mind. Looking at the network of today, I strongl= y feel the pain of the current architecture=E2=80=99s cracking and squeakin= g. Consequently, I believe that we =E2=80=93 the wider IETF community respo= nsible for Internet technology =E2=80=93 need to re-think the architecture.= We need to find a way to re-create the core of the Internet in a way that = leads to a new era of innovation and intellectual prosperity. The highlight= of my IETF64 meeting in Vancouver was that I started to see signs of inter= est and activity in the broader community to pursue such a goal.

...

T= he IAB has recently created a new mailing list, architecture-discuss [15], = for wider discussion of architectural issues, which I hope will develop int= o a valuable forum over time. I hope to see you there".

https://www.ietfjournal.org/reflections-on-architecture


<= div style=3D"font-size:16px;line-height:24px;padding:0px 0.75rem;float:left= ;width:311.59375px;margin-left:auto">


Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Juma= t, 31 Januari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear Russ & architecture-discuss,

=
I have just added Leva. T & H. Suommi's "Framew= ork of Analyzing Feasibility of Internet Protocols" to the before-ment= ioned list of readings by "Add Comment" Facility in the OPEN FORU= M Community Library:


###
= To the list of readings above (Consolidation of the Internet: from the Soc= io-Economic to the Architectural) may I add "Framework of Analyzing Fe= asibility of Internet Potocols" (Leva, T. & H. Suommi, the IAB Wor= kshop on Internet Technology Adootion and Transition 2013) which was ever t= o be part of architecture-discuss@ietf.org "Centralization or diversity?&q= uot; January 22th 2020:

http= s://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/architecture-discuss/sdTkLd7q7w= XyfAnjJQlNceWPr8U


##= #




Not= e:=C2=A0
To clarify what I said in the previous message:=C2=A0
I mean the architecture-discuss@ietf.org and the OPEN FORUM Community = Library may be about a networked community of reading, a networked library.=





=

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada= Jumat, 31 Januari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear Russ and architecture-discuss,

The post =C2=A0in OPEN Forum Community Library is about those document s= aved in the architecture-discuss mailarchive I mentioned above plus=C2=A0

=C2=A0Arkko, Jarri et all., &q= uot;Considerations on the Internet Consolidation and the Internet Architect= ure", Internet-Draft, IETF, Expired April 2019 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-iab-internet-consolidat= ion-00=C2=A0

While, I have not in= cluded yet that of T. Leva and H. Suommi's...

I emphasized on socio-economic and architectural learnings attempted= by those documents there--while the post at architecture-discuss emphazise= d on feasibility of the Internet architecture in relation with aesthetic an= d ethic experiences.

This is what I saved in OPEN = FORUM Community Library:

"Consolidation of th= e Internet: From the Socio-Economic to the Architectural"
This documents refer to = "Consolidation in the Internet" which is of economic and architec= tural approaches and perspectives:

- ISOC Global Internet Report Consolidation in the Internet Economy https://future.internetsociety.org/2019/wp= -content/uploads/sites/2/2019/04/InternetSociety-GlobalInternetRe= port-ConsolidationintheInternetEconomy.pdf=C2=A0
- Arkko, Jarri et all., "Considerations= on the Internet Consolidation and the Internet Architecture", Interne= t-Draft, IETF, Expired April 2019 https://tools.ie= tf.org/html/draft-arkko-iab-internet-consolidation-00=C2=A0
- Sullivan, Andrew, "Thre= e Kinds of Concentration in Open Protocols", IAB-DEDR Workshop 2019 https://www.iab.org= /wp-content/IAB-uploads/2019/05/p7-sulllivan-three_kinds_concentr= ation_ajs_dedr.pdf=C2=A0
- Arkko, Jarri, "Centralized Architecture in Internet Architectur= e", Internet Draft, 2019=C2=A0
https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-= arkko-arch-infrastructure-centralisation-00.txt
Kutscher, Dirk, "Protocol Design and Socio= -economic Realities", in the IAB-DEDR Workshop 2019
https://www.iab.org/wp-content/IAB-uploads/2019/05/p14-kutscher-= internet-design-kutscher.pdf


Note: This post is related w= ith another one in this "Open Forum": Restream: Internet Consolid= ation: What Lies beneath the Application Layer..." (December 14th 2019= ) https://connect.internetsociety.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?GroupId=3D67&MessageKey=3D426220c6-e4= 1e-45c8-8872-7f0cc455f492&CommunityKey=3D3a9fa082-a518-475d-9= e7f-ecec4ffe56dd&tab=3Ddigestviewer&ReturnUrl=3D%2fcommun= ities%2fcommunity-home%2fdigestviewer%3fCommunityKey%3d3a9fa082-a= 518-475d-9e7f-ecec4ffe56dd






Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pad= a Jumat, 31 Januari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear Russ and architecture-discuss,=C2=A0

<= /div>

I am new there, I have not know muc "how to": = I think one needs to create an account in the Internet Society to join with= OPEN FORUM Community to access its features:

https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/


But at this architecture-discuss, where we are now, one may simply acce= ss its mail archives for the documents on "Consolidation of the Intern= et" --so it is nothing new but such a networked community of reading, = such a networked library:

https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/architecture-discuss/sdTkLd7q7wXyfAnjJQlNceWPr8U

I find no search engine facility for documents at OPEN FORUM community Libr= ary while there is one at architecture-discuss mail archive.
=
Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Jum= at, 31 Januari 2020, Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> menulis:
Is there a way to see the document without creating an account?
Russ


= On Jan 29, 2020, at 4:37 AM, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> wrote:

=
Dear architecture-discuss,

Documents related with t= he current issues on "consolidation of the Internet" saved in the= "Open Forum" community of the Internet Society:

--000000000000a9d7ce059fedce5d-- From nobody Thu Mar 5 09:27:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2CB13A07AE; Thu, 5 Mar 2020 09:27:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ts5hLN080R2u; Thu, 5 Mar 2020 09:27:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from hardie-macbookpro.roam.corp.google.com (173-164-194-122-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [173.164.194.122]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 72E523A07AC; Thu, 5 Mar 2020 09:27:32 -0800 (PST) To: ietf@ietf.org, iab@iab.org, architecture-discuss@ietf.org From: Ted Hardie Message-ID: Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 18:27:29 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] Conflict of Interest policy for the IAB X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2020 17:27:35 -0000 Dear Colleagues, As you may recall, in January the IAB solicited feedback on a proposed conflict of interest policy.  Thanks to all who responded.  The IAB has now adopted a policy based on that feedback and other discussions; you can find it at:https://www.iab.org/internet-architecture-board-conflict-of-interest-policy/ , best regards, Ted Hardie for the IAB From nobody Sat Mar 7 16:18:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 751733A126C for ; 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Sat, 07 Mar 2020 04:37:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6830:1c22:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Sat, 7 Mar 2020 04:37:51 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <64D42558-19A2-469E-B027-B67FB52A5279@vigilsec.com> From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 19:37:51 +0700 Message-ID: To: Russ Housley Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d9384505a04309ae" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Network Architecture in the Internet Society X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2020 12:38:15 -0000 X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2020 12:38:15 -0000 --000000000000d9384505a04309ae Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear architecture-discuss, There are ones, I modify what P. Nikander did ever say, happening to have the Internet architects' minds: How should they (play and) work on (the Internet economy and) such important historical works on economy...? The 20th Century Works on Economy: "Historical" Ones --according to La Soci=C3=A9t=C3=A9 d'=C3=89conomie Politique they progressed the economic kn= owledge of the century and 6 of the 10 plus one "joker" were Nobel Prize Winners...: Histoire =C3=A9conomique. [image: Image1]La Soci=C3=A9t=C3=A9 d=E2=80=99=C3=89conomie Politique propo= se une liste de dix textes (plus =C2=AB un joker =C2=BB) qui ont fait progresser la connaissanc= e =C3=A9conomique au 20e si=C3=A8cle. 1906. Eugene B=C3=B6hm-Bawerk, =C2=AB The nature of capital =C2=BB, *Quater= ly Journal of Economics*. 1919. Eli Heckscher, =C2=AB The effect of foreign trade on the distribution= of income =C2=BB, *Ekonomisk Tiksrift*. 1929. John Maynard Keynes, =C2=AB The german transfer problem =C2=BB, *Econ= omic Journal*. 1933. Ragnard Frisch, =C2=AB Propagation problems and impulse problems in dynamic economics =C2=BB, in*Economic essays in honour of Gustav Cassel*. 1937. Ronald Coase, =C2=AB The nature of the firm =C2=BB, *Economica*. 1937. Freidrich Hayek, =C2=AB Economics and knowledge =C2=BB, *Economica*. 1950. John Nash, =C2=AB The bargaining problem =C2=BB, *Econometrica*. 1961, John Muth, =C2=AB Rational expectations and the theory of price movem= ents =C2=BB, *Econometrica*. 1969. Milton Friedman, =C2=AB The role of monetary policy =C2=BB, *American= Economic Review*. 1972. Robert Lucas, =C2=AB Expectations and the neutrality of money =C2=BB,= *Journal of Economic Theory*. Jocker: 1970. George Akerlof, =C2=AB The market for =E2=80=9CLemons=E2=80= =9D: qualitative uncertainty and the market mechanism =C2=BB, *Quaterly Journal of Economics= *. Six de ces auteurs (Frisch, Coase, Hayek, Nash, Friedman, Lucas) ont obtenu le prix Nobel d=E2=80=99=C3=A9conomie. La Documentation Fran=C3=A7aise prop= ose en ligne sur son site un dossier sur les prix Nobel d=E2=80=99=C3=A9conomie depuis 1969,= date de la cr=C3=A9ation de cette r=C3=A9compense. Le site de La Documentation Fran=C3=A7aise Le lien direct pour t=C3=A9l=C3=A9charger (en format pdf) les fiches de la Documentation Fran=C3=A7aise sur les prix Nobel d=E2=80=99=C3=A9conomie Le site de la Fondation Nobel Le site de La Documentation Fran=C3=A7aise Pour faire r=C3=A9f=C3=A9rence =C3=A0 cet article (ISO 690) =C2=AB Histoire =C3=A9conomique. =C2=BB, *EspacesTemps.net* [En ligne], Br= =C3=A8ves, 2002 | Mis en ligne le 26 avril 2002, consult=C3=A9 le 26.04.2002. URL : https://www.espacestemps.net/articles/histoire-economique/ ; Regard, Guntur Wiseno Putra Pada Selasa, 03 Maret 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra menulis= : > Dear architecture-discuss, > > > > Cyberspace, geography, economy and architecture: > > > In "architecture" there are a moment to consider "principles that can be > utilized to create order in an architectural composition" (F. D. K. Ching= , > "Architecture: Form, Space and Order", John Wiley & Sons, New Jersey & > Canada, 2007, p. 338) among others there is "rythm" referring to "any > movement characterized by a patterned recurrence of elements or motifs at > regular or irregular intervals" (ibid., p. 382). Nikander ever noted the > importance of noticing moments of repeatances ("Reflections on > Architecture"). > > # A bibliography > > *) Space Economy > > Pour faire r=C3=A9f=C3=A9rence =C3=A0 cet article (ISO 690) > > Kevin Cox, =C2=AB The State and Varieties of Space Economy. =C2=BB, Espac= esTemps.net > [En ligne], Travaux, 2018 | Mis en ligne le 9 ao=C3=BBt 2018, consult=C3= =A9 le > 09.08.2018. URL : https://www.espacestemps.net/articles/the-state-and- > varieties-of-space-economy/ ; DOI : 10.26151/xpk0-5t53 > > *) Economy of Rythm > > Pour faire r=C3=A9f=C3=A9rence =C3=A0 cet article (ISO 690) > > Yves Crozet, =C2=AB =C3=89conomie des rythmes urbains. =C2=BB, EspacesTem= ps.net [En > ligne], Travaux, 2019 | Mis en ligne le 9 mai 2019, consult=C3=A9 le 09.0= 5.2019. > URL : https://www.espacestemps.net/articles/economie-des-rythmes-urbains/= ; > DOI : 10.26151/espacestemps.net-9a82-fr23 > > > *) Rythm analysis > > - Pour faire r=C3=A9f=C3=A9rence =C3=A0 cet article (ISO 690) > > Guillaume Drevon, Luc Gwiazdzinski, Vincent Kaufmann et Luca Pattaroni, = =C2=AB > Rythmes de vie(s), rythmes de ville(s). =C2=BB, EspacesTemps.net [En lign= e], > Traverses, 2018 | Mis en ligne le 21 d=C3=A9cembre 2018, consult=C3=A9 le= 21.12.2018. > URL : https://www.espacestemps.net/articles/rythmes-de-vies- > rythmes-de-villes/ ; DOI : 10.26151/espacestemps.net-m2z4-6535 > > - Pour faire r=C3=A9f=C3=A9rence =C3=A0 cet article (ISO 690) > > Maie G=C3=A9rardot, =C2=AB Penser en rythmes. =C2=BB, EspacesTemps.net [E= n ligne], > Travaux, 2007 | Mis en ligne le 8 d=C3=A9cembre 2007, consult=C3=A9 le 08= .12.2007. > URL : https://www.espacestemps.net/articles/penser-en-rythmes/ > > # (Problems of) Methods of Readings > > It is supposedly interesting: notions tried in the bibliographies --but I > red it at glance so far: a guidance to arrive at the above bibligraphies = I > need to make: > > (Request for) Comments is about commenting texts & Hyper Text (Transfer > Protocol) is also about a technology may be related with such an > understanding on reality as text (1): To the above bibliographies/texts > there should be critical readings which is about interpretations and > evaluations --if it is especially about planning/programming-- based on > contexts which are among others real conditions --social, historical and > other ones-- of readers. > > > NOTE: > > - Hyperreality: reality as text. I tried to elaborate it in > > https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-informationarchitecture/ > 2020Jan/0004.html > > > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > > > Pada Minggu, 01 Maret 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra > menulis: > >> Dear architecture-discuss, >> >> Tim Berners-Lee said about "networks of languages" as those with what >> users get engaged with the Web and the Internet: it was in "Stack of >> Specification" as part of the "Design Issues: Architectural and >> Philosophical Points"(1). So, architecturally thinking on "the Internet >> economy" refers us to what were ever mentioned by these "E-Flux editors" >> >> The Internet and the Economy of Languages...: >> >> Julieta Aranda, Brian Kuan Wood, and Anton Vidokle >> Editorial=E2=80=94=E2=80=9FLanguage and Internet=E2=80=9D (2) >> >> "... >> >> As the role of the state in ensuring the value of currency has grown >> weaker over the past few decades, markets have increasingly assumed the >> qualities of language, of a "system of signs in which the only essential >> thing is the union of meanings" (Saussure). The other language economy i= s >> of course the internet, where it was thought that the immaterial qualiti= es >> of language would evade limits in supply and demand. But now for some >> reason, this promise reverses. As language becomes more free, everything >> else becomes incredibly expensive. This has made language, and the inter= net >> with it, a class battleground now more than ever, because it represents >> access to both knowledge and capital simultaneously. >> >> ...". >> >> https://www.e-flux.com/journal/45/60099/editorial-language-and-internet >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Note: >> >> (1) "The Internet works because of interoperability between different >> computers, despite different hardware, operating systems, local language >> context, and software supplier. Users of the web sign on to the use of >> these languages when they use the Internet". (TBL, "Stack of >> Specifications") >> >> (2) I added this source to the Open Forum Library of the Internet Societ= y >> "Consolidation of the Internet: from the Socio-Economic to the >> Architectural" >> >> >> https://w3.org/DesignIssues/Stack.html >> >> >> Regard, >> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >> Pada Selasa, 25 Februari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra >> menulis: >> >>> Dear architecture-discuss, >>> >>> Pekka Nikander, in "Reflections on Architecture" of the previous >>> message, mentioned little about "economy and information (security)": b= y >>> this thread of "(Consolidation of) the Internet Economy: from the >>> socio-economic to the architectural", I wander would these raw material= s of >>> thought works for an economy of the Internet: >>> >>> >>> "Goods and services: Here we are. What is it there...? What does happen >>> there...? What could we make there...? Would our sad heart --because of >>> stupidities/foolishness and failures-- be entertained...? Would our >>> passions -- for truth, justice and beauty -- be well served...? --inclu= ding >>> of ourselves...? >>> >>> Those people either are or were great, it is said: for what they have >>> made available to many others, for what they have made inspiring --sayi= ng >>> about acceptances and denials by-- many others: concepts and technics. = Part >>> of those things have been being through places and times, many countrie= s >>> and being made survived for decades, for centuries... Other part of tho= se >>> things have been forgotten though ever enjoyed long celebrations: and, = yes, >>> there were then revelations of what were silent before... They just too= k >>> rest while kept maintained in such simplicities until other things came= to >>> and take them with new hopes, new happines, new plans, new games... (It= is >>> like a story on concepts in the making: with their histories, ...) >>> >>> ... >>> >>> Here we have more, here we lack of... There are others by whom we may >>> talk to and exchange with... Farewell: just take journeys... (so it is = then >>> here we are in journeys or we may be there in journeys...) >>> >>> ... >>> >>> "Here we have , here we lack of": does it not represent an understandin= g >>> about "justice"...? What are about "truth" and "beauty"...? >>> >>> If it does refers us to a notion on "justice", or perhaps precisely >>> "natural justice", if it is how "justice" works, then how do we take ou= r >>> journeys..? >>> >>> Choices and risks, benefits and costs, gains and pains.... There are >>> rules of games: is it not illusive not to think/to think otherwise that >>> profits are just equal to costs/sacrifices, that victories are equal to >>> struggles...? And, there are as well the historical as the social, as w= ell >>> succesive generations as consensus/collectivities/togetherness, we live >>> in: of rules of games, of "justice". >>> ... >>> >>> The circle, or the equation, of trust, responsibility, and facility... >>> People trust ones in such ways to take responsibilities to provide them >>> with goods or services accompanied by facilities to work on the >>> responsibilities...--including such physio- and psychoterapies of rest.= .. >>> >>> >>> ...". >>> >>> >>> >>> Regard, >>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> >>> Pada Senin, 24 Februari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> menulis: >>> >>>> Dear architecture-discuss, >>>> >>>> By opening files at www.ietfjournal.org I finded this out: Among >>>> others this is one worked on by the IETF publication on "architecture" >>>> which mentioned also about "architecture-discuss" in the time of its >>>> beginning --I then made it part of the entry on "Consolidation of the >>>> Internet..." at the Internet Society's Open Forum Library: >>>> >>>> NETWORKING RESEARCHReflections on >>>> >>>> ArchitectureBy: Pekka Nikander >>>> Date= : >>>> December 2005 >>>> >>>> >>>> "I happen to have an architect=E2=80=99s mind. Looking at the network = of today, >>>> I strongly feel the pain of the current architecture=E2=80=99s crackin= g and >>>> squeaking. Consequently, I believe that we =E2=80=93 the wider IETF co= mmunity >>>> responsible for Internet technology =E2=80=93 need to re-think the arc= hitecture. We >>>> need to find a way to re-create the core of the Internet in a way that >>>> leads to a new era of innovation and intellectual prosperity. The high= light >>>> of my IETF64 meeting in Vancouver was that I started to see signs of >>>> interest and activity in the broader community to pursue such a goal. >>>> >>>> ... >>>> >>>> The IAB has recently created a new mailing list, architecture-discuss >>>> [15], for wider discussion of architectural issues, which I hope will >>>> develop into a valuable forum over time. I hope to see you there". >>>> >>>> https://www.ietfjournal.org/reflections-on-architecture >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Regard, >>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>> >>>> Pada Jumat, 31 Januari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>> menulis: >>>> >>>>> Dear Russ & architecture-discuss, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I have just added Leva. T & H. Suommi's "Framework of Analyzing >>>>> Feasibility of Internet Protocols" to the before-mentioned list of re= adings >>>>> by "Add Comment" Facility in the OPEN FORUM Community Library: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ### >>>>> To the list of readings above (Consolidation of the Internet: from th= e >>>>> Socio-Economic to the Architectural) may I add "Framework of Analyzin= g >>>>> Feasibility of Internet Potocols" (Leva, T. & H. Suommi, the IAB Work= shop >>>>> on Internet Technology Adootion and Transition 2013) which was ever t= o be >>>>> part of architecture-discuss@ietf.org "Centralization or diversity?" >>>>> January 22th 2020: >>>>> >>>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/architecture-discuss/s >>>>> dTkLd7q7wXyfAnjJQlNceWPr8U >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ### >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Note: >>>>> To clarify what I said in the previous message: >>>>> I mean the architecture-discuss@ietf.org and the OPEN FORUM Community >>>>> Library may be about a networked community of reading, a networked li= brary. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Regard, >>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>> >>>>> Pada Jumat, 31 Januari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>> menulis: >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Russ and architecture-discuss, >>>>>> >>>>>> The post in OPEN Forum Community Library is about those document >>>>>> saved in the architecture-discuss mailarchive I mentioned above plus >>>>>> >>>>>> Arkko, Jarri et all., "Considerations on the Internet Consolidation >>>>>> and the Internet Architecture", Internet-Draft, IETF, Expired April = 2019 >>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-iab-internet-consolidation-0= 0 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> While, I have not included yet that of T. Leva and H. Suommi's... >>>>>> >>>>>> I emphasized on socio-economic and architectural learnings attempted >>>>>> by those documents there--while the post at architecture-discuss emp= hazised >>>>>> on feasibility of the Internet architecture in relation with aesthet= ic and >>>>>> ethic experiences. >>>>>> >>>>>> This is what I saved in OPEN FORUM Community Library: >>>>>> >>>>>> "Consolidation of the Internet: From the Socio-Economic to the >>>>>> Architectural" >>>>>> >>>>>> This documents refer to "Consolidation in the Internet" which is of >>>>>> economic and architectural approaches and perspectives: >>>>>> >>>>>> - ISOC Global Internet Report Consolidation in the Internet Economy >>>>>> https://future.internetsociety.org/2019/wp-content/uploads/s >>>>>> ites/2/2019/04/InternetSociety-GlobalInternetReport-Consolid >>>>>> ationintheInternetEconomy.pdf >>>>>> - Arkko, Jarri et all., "Considerations on the Internet Consolidatio= n >>>>>> and the Internet Architecture", Internet-Draft, IETF, Expired April = 2019 >>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-iab-internet-consolidation-0= 0 >>>>>> >>>>>> - Sullivan, Andrew, "Three Kinds of Concentration in Open Protocols"= , >>>>>> IAB-DEDR Workshop 2019 https://www.iab.org/wp-content >>>>>> /IAB-uploads/2019/05/p7-sulllivan-three_kinds_concentration_ >>>>>> ajs_dedr.pdf >>>>>> - Arkko, Jarri, "Centralized Architecture in Internet Architecture", >>>>>> Internet Draft, 2019 >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-arkko-arch-infrastructure-cent >>>>>> ralisation-00.txt >>>>>> Kutscher, Dirk, "Protocol Design and Socio-economic Realities", in >>>>>> the IAB-DEDR Workshop 2019 >>>>>> https://www.iab.org/wp-content/IAB-uploads/2019/05/p14-kutsc >>>>>> her-internet-design-kutscher.pdf >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Note: This post is related with another one in this "Open Forum": >>>>>> Restream: Internet Consolidation: What Lies beneath the Application >>>>>> Layer..." (December 14th 2019) https://connect.internetsociet >>>>>> y.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?Gro >>>>>> upId=3D67&MessageKey=3D426220c6-e41e-45c8-8872-7f0cc455f492&Comm >>>>>> unityKey=3D3a9fa082-a518-475d-9e7f-ecec4ffe56dd&tab=3Ddigestview >>>>>> er&ReturnUrl=3D%2fcommunities%2fcommunity-home%2fdigestviewer% >>>>>> 3fCommunityKey%3d3a9fa082-a518-475d-9e7f-ecec4ffe56dd >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Regard, >>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>> >>>>>> Pada Jumat, 31 Januari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>> menulis: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Russ and architecture-discuss, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am new there, I have not know muc "how to": I think one needs to >>>>>>> create an account in the Internet Society to join with OPEN FORUM C= ommunity >>>>>>> to access its features: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But at this architecture-discuss, where we are now, one may simply >>>>>>> access its mail archives for the documents on "Consolidation of the >>>>>>> Internet" --so it is nothing new but such a networked community of = reading, >>>>>>> such a networked library: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/architecture-discuss/s >>>>>>> dTkLd7q7wXyfAnjJQlNceWPr8U >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I find no search engine facility for documents at OPEN FORUM >>>>>>> community Library while there is one at architecture-discuss mail a= rchive. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regard, >>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pada Jumat, 31 Januari 2020, Russ Housley >>>>>>> menulis: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is there a way to see the document without creating an account? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Russ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jan 29, 2020, at 4:37 AM, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear architecture-discuss, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Documents related with the current issues on "consolidation of the >>>>>>>> Internet" saved in the "Open Forum" community of the Internet Soci= ety: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://connect.internetsociety.org/viewdocument/consolidati >>>>>>>> on-of-the-internet-from?CommunityKey=3D3a9fa082-a518-475d-9e7f >>>>>>>> -ecec4ffe56dd&tab=3Dlibrarydocuments#ItemCommentPanel >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regard, >>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --000000000000d9384505a04309ae Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear architecture-discuss,

There are ones, I modify what= P. Nikander did ever say, happening to have the Internet architects' m= inds: How should they (play and) work on (the Internet economy and) such im= portant historical works on economy...?


=
The 20th Century Works on Economy: "Historical"= ; Ones --according to La Soci=C3=A9t=C3=A9 d'=C3=89conomie Politique th= ey progressed the economic knowledge of the century and 6 of the 10 plus on= e "joker" were Nobel Prize Winners...:

<= /div>


Histoire =C3=A9conomique.

<= span id=3D"auteurs-blok" style=3D"box-sizing:border-box;border:0px;font-fam= ily:verdana;font-size:11px;font-weight:bold;margin:15px 0px;outline:0px;pad= ding:0px;vertical-align:baseline;display:block;color:rgb(100,100,100)">

La Soci=C3=A9t=C3=A9 d=E2=80=99=C3=89conomie Politique pro= pose une liste de dix textes (plus =C2=AB un joker =C2=BB) qui ont fait pro= gresser la connaissance =C3=A9conomique au 20e=C2= =A0si=C3=A8cle.

1906. Eugene B=C3=B6hm-B= awerk, =C2=AB The nature of capital =C2=BB,=C2=A0Quaterly Journal of Economics<= /em>.

1919. Eli Heckscher, =C2=AB The effect of fore= ign trade on the distribution of income =C2=BB,=C2=A0Ekonomisk Tiksrift.

1929. John Maynard Keynes, =C2=AB The german transfer= problem =C2=BB,=C2=A0Economic Journal.

1933. Ragna= rd Frisch, =C2=AB Propagation problems and impulse problems in dynamic econ= omics =C2=BB, inEconomic essays in honour of Gustav Cassel.

1937. Ronald Coase, =C2=AB The nature of the firm =C2=BB,=C2=A0Economi= ca.

1937. Freidrich Hayek, =C2=AB Economics and= knowledge =C2=BB,=C2=A0Economica.

1950. John Nash,= =C2=AB The bargaining problem =C2=BB,=C2=A0Econometrica.

1961, John Muth, =C2=AB Rational expectations and the theory of pric= e movements =C2=BB,=C2=A0Econometrica.

1969. Milton= Friedman, =C2=AB The role of monetary policy =C2=BB,=C2=A0American Economic Re= view.

1972. Robert Lucas, =C2=AB Expectations a= nd the neutrality of money =C2=BB,=C2=A0Journal of Economic Theory.

Jocker: 1970. George Akerlof, =C2=AB The market for =E2=80= =9CLemons=E2=80=9D: qualitative uncertainty and the market mechanism =C2=BB= ,=C2=A0Quaterly Journal of Economics.

Six de ces a= uteurs (Frisch, Coase, Hayek, Nash, Friedman, Lucas) ont obtenu le prix Nob= el d=E2=80=99=C3=A9conomie. La Documentation Fran=C3=A7aise propose en lign= e sur son site un dossier sur les prix Nobel d=E2=80=99=C3=A9conomie depuis= 1969, date de la cr=C3=A9ation de cette r=C3=A9compense.

Le site de La Documentation Fran=C3=A7ai= se

Le lien direct pour t=C3=A9l=C3=A9charger (e= n format=C2=A0pdf) les fiches de la Documentation= Fran=C3=A7aise sur les=C2=A0prix Nobel d=E2=80=99=C3=A9conomie

Le site d= e la=C2=A0Fondation Nobel

Le site de La Documentation Fran=C3=A7aise

Pour faire r=C3=A9f=C3=A9rence =C3=A0 cet ar= ticle (ISO 690)

= =C2=AB=C2=A0Histoire =C3=A9conomique.=C2=A0=C2=BB,=C2=A0EspacesTemps.net= =C2=A0[En ligne], Br=C3=A8ves, 2002 | Mis en ligne le 26 avril 2002, consul= t=C3=A9 le 26.04.2002. URL : https://www.espacestemps.net/articles/histoire-eco= nomique/ ;



Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Selasa, 03 Maret 2020, Guntur Wisen= o Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> = menulis:
Dear architecture-discuss,<= div>


Cyberspace, geography, eco= nomy and architecture:


In "arc= hitecture" there are a moment to consider "principles that can be= utilized to create order in an architectural composition" (F. D. K. C= hing, "Architecture: Form, Space and Order", John Wiley & Son= s, New Jersey & Canada, 2007, p. 338) among others there is "rythm= " referring to "any movement characterized by a patterned recurre= nce of elements or motifs at regular or irregular intervals" (ibid., p= . 382). Nikander ever noted the importance of noticing moments of repeatanc= es ("Reflections on Architecture").

# A bibliography

*) Space Economy

<= /div>
Pour faire r=C3=A9f=C3=A9rence =C3=A0 cet article (ISO 690)
Kevin Cox, =C2=AB The State and Varieties of Space Economy. =C2=BB, Espac= esTemps.net [En ligne], Travaux, 2018 | Mis en ligne le 9 ao=C3=BBt 2018, c= onsult=C3=A9 le 09.08.2018. URL :=C2=A0h= ttps://www.espacestemps.net/articles/the-state-and-varieties-of-s= pace-economy/=C2=A0; DOI : 10.26151/xpk0-5t53

<= div>*) Economy of Rythm

Pour faire r=C3=A9f=C3=A9rence =C3=A0= cet article (ISO 690)

Yves Crozet, =C2=AB =C3=89conomie des rythmes= urbains. =C2=BB, EspacesTemps.net [En ligne], Travaux, 2019 | Mis en ligne= le 9 mai 2019, consult=C3=A9 le 09.05.2019. URL :=C2=A0https://www.espacestemps.net/articles/economie-des-rythmes-ur= bains/=C2=A0; DOI : 10.26151/espacestemps.net-9a82-fr23
<= div>

*) Rythm analysis

- Pour faire r=C3=A9f=C3=A9rence =C3=A0 cet article (ISO 690)
=
Guillaume Drevon, Luc Gwiazdzinski, Vincent Kaufmann et Luca Pattaroni,= =C2=AB Rythmes de vie(s), rythmes de ville(s). =C2=BB, EspacesTemps.net [E= n ligne], Traverses, 2018 | Mis en ligne le 21 d=C3=A9cembre 2018, consult= =C3=A9 le 21.12.2018. URL :=C2=A0https://www.es= pacestemps.net/articles/rythmes-de-vies-rythmes-de-villes/=C2= =A0; DOI : 10.26151/espacestemps.net-m2z4-6535

= - Pour faire r=C3=A9f=C3=A9rence =C3=A0 cet article (ISO 690)

Maie G=C3=A9rardot, =C2=AB Penser en rythmes. =C2=BB, EspacesTemps.net= [En ligne], Travaux, 2007 | Mis en ligne le 8 d=C3=A9cembre 2007, consult= =C3=A9 le 08.12.2007. URL :=C2=A0https://www.espacestemps.= net/articles/penser-en-rythmes/=C2=A0

# (Problems of) Methods of Readings

It is suppose= dly interesting: notions tried in the bibliographies --but I red it at glan= ce so far: a guidance to arrive at the above bibligraphies I need to make:<= /div>

(Request for) Comments is about commenting texts &= amp; Hyper Text (Transfer Protocol) is also about a technology may be relat= ed with such an understanding on reality as text (1): To the above bibliogr= aphies/texts there should be critical readings which is about interpretatio= ns and evaluations --if it is especially about planning/programming-- based= on contexts which are among others real conditions --social, historical an= d other ones-- of readers.


NOTE:

- Hyperreality: reality as text. I tried to elaborat= e it in



Re= gard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra



Pada = Minggu, 01 Maret 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear architecture-discuss,

Tim Bern= ers-Lee said about "networks of languages" as those with what use= rs get engaged with the Web and the Internet: it was in "Stack of Spec= ification" as part of the "Design Issues: Architectural and Philo= sophical Points"(1). So, architecturally thinking on "the Interne= t economy" refers us to what were ever mentioned by these "E-Flux= editors"

The Internet an= d the Economy of Languages...:

Julieta Aranda, Brian Kuan Wood, and = Anton Vidokle

Editor= ial=E2=80=94=E2=80=9FLanguage and Internet=E2=80=9D (2)=

"...

A= s the role of the state in ensuring the value of currency has grown weaker = over the past few decades, markets have increasingly assumed the qualities = of language, of a "system of signs in which the only essential thing i= s the union of meanings" (Saussure). The other language economy is of = course the internet, where it was thought that the immaterial qualities of = language would evade limits in supply and demand. But now for some reason, = this promise reverses. As language becomes more free, everything else becom= es incredibly expensive. This has made language, and the internet with it, = a class battleground now more than ever, because it represents access to bo= th knowledge and capital simultaneously.

...&= quot;.

h= ttps://www.e-flux.com/journal/45/60099/editorial-language-and-int= ernet



<= div>




<= div>




<= div>

Note:

(1) =C2=A0= "The Internet works because of interop= erability between different computers, despite different hardware, operatin= g systems, local language context, and software supplier. Users of the web = sign on to the use of these languages when they use the Internet". (TB= L, "Stack of Specifications")

(2) I adde= d this source to the Open Forum Library of the Internet Society "Conso= lidation of the Internet: from the Socio-Economic to the Architectural"= ;

https://w3.org/DesignIssues/Stack.html=C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0


Regard,
Guntur Wis= eno Putra

Pada Selasa, 25 Februari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com&g= t; menulis:
Dear architecture-discuss,
Pekka Nikander, in "Reflections on Architecture"= of the previous message, mentioned little about "economy and informat= ion (security)": by this thread of "(Consolidation of) the Intern= et Economy: from the socio-economic to the architectural", I wander wo= uld these raw materials of thought works for an economy of the Internet:


"Goods and services: Here we are= . What is it there...? What does happen there...? What could we make there.= ..? Would our sad heart --because of stupidities/foolishness and failures--= be entertained...? Would our passions -- for truth, justice and beauty -- = be well served...? --including of ourselves...?

Those people either are or were great, it is said: for what they have made = available to many others, for what they have made inspiring --saying about = acceptances and denials by-- many others: concepts and technics. Part of th= ose things have been being through places and times, many countries and bei= ng made survived for decades, for centuries... Other part of those things h= ave been forgotten though ever enjoyed long celebrations: and, yes, there w= ere then revelations of what were silent before... They just took rest whil= e kept maintained in such simplicities until other things came to and take = them with new hopes, new happines, new plans, new games... (It is like a st= ory on concepts in the making: with their histories, ...)

...

Here we have more, here we lack of... There are others by whom we may talk = to and exchange with...=C2=A0Farewell: just take journeys... (so it is then= here we are in journeys or we may be there in journeys...)

...

"Here we have , here we lack of": does it not represent an unders= tanding about "justice"...? What are about "truth" and = "beauty"...?

If it does refers us to a notion on "justice", or perhaps precise= ly "natural justice", if it is how "justice" works, the= n how do we take our journeys..?

Choices and risks, benefits and co= sts, gains and pains.... There are rules of games: is it not illusive not t= o think/to think otherwise that profits are just equal to costs/sacrifices,= that victories are equal to struggles...? And, there are as well the histo= rical as the social, as well succesive generations as consensus/collectivit= ies/togetherness, we live in: of rules of games, of "justice"= ;.=C2=A0
...

The circle, or the equation, of trust, responsibility, and facility... = People trust ones in such ways to take responsibilities to provide them wit= h goods or services accompanied by facilities to work on the responsibiliti= es...--including such physio- and psychoterapies of rest...=C2=A0


...".



Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Senin, 24 Februari 2020, Guntur Wi= seno Putra <gseno= pu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear archit= ecture-discuss,

By opening files at www.ietfjournal.org I finded this = out: Among others this is one worked on by the IETF publication on "ar= chitecture" which mentioned also about "architecture-discuss"= ; in the time of its beginning --I then made it part of the entry on "= Consolidation of the Internet..." at the Internet Society's Open F= orum Library:

NETWORKING RESEARCH

Reflections on

Architecture

By:=C2=A0P= ekka Nikander

Date: December 2005


<= span style=3D"color:rgb(34,31,31);font-family:Roboto;font-style:normal;lett= er-spacing:normal;line-height:32px;text-transform:none">"I happen to h= ave an architect=E2=80=99s mind. Looking at the network of today, I strongl= y feel the pain of the current architecture=E2=80=99s cracking and squeakin= g. Consequently, I believe that we =E2=80=93 the wider IETF community respo= nsible for Internet technology =E2=80=93 need to re-think the architecture.= We need to find a way to re-create the core of the Internet in a way that = leads to a new era of innovation and intellectual prosperity. The highlight= of my IETF64 meeting in Vancouver was that I started to see signs of inter= est and activity in the broader community to pursue such a goal.

...

T= he IAB has recently created a new mailing list, architecture-discuss [15], = for wider discussion of architectural issues, which I hope will develop int= o a valuable forum over time. I hope to see you there".

https://www.ietfjournal.org/reflections-on-architecture


<= div style=3D"font-size:16px;line-height:24px;padding:0px 0.75rem;float:left= ;width:311.59375px;margin-left:auto">


Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Juma= t, 31 Januari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear Russ & architecture-discuss,

=
I have just added Leva. T & H. Suommi's "Framew= ork of Analyzing Feasibility of Internet Protocols" to the before-ment= ioned list of readings by "Add Comment" Facility in the OPEN FORU= M Community Library:


###
= To the list of readings above (Consolidation of the Internet: from the Soc= io-Economic to the Architectural) may I add "Framework of Analyzing Fe= asibility of Internet Potocols" (Leva, T. & H. Suommi, the IAB Wor= kshop on Internet Technology Adootion and Transition 2013) which was ever t= o be part of architecture-discuss@ietf.org "Centralization or diversity?&q= uot; January 22th 2020:

http= s://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/architecture-discuss/sdTkLd7q7w= XyfAnjJQlNceWPr8U


##= #




Not= e:=C2=A0
To clarify what I said in the previous message:=C2=A0
I mean the architecture-discuss@ietf.org and the OPEN FORUM Community = Library may be about a networked community of reading, a networked library.=





=

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada= Jumat, 31 Januari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear Russ and architecture-discuss,

The post =C2=A0in OPEN Forum Community Library is about those document s= aved in the architecture-discuss mailarchive I mentioned above plus=C2=A0

=C2=A0Arkko, Jarri et all., &q= uot;Considerations on the Internet Consolidation and the Internet Architect= ure", Internet-Draft, IETF, Expired April 2019 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-iab-internet-consolidat= ion-00=C2=A0

While, I have not in= cluded yet that of T. Leva and H. Suommi's...

I emphasized on socio-economic and architectural learnings attempted= by those documents there--while the post at architecture-discuss emphazise= d on feasibility of the Internet architecture in relation with aesthetic an= d ethic experiences.

This is what I saved in OPEN = FORUM Community Library:

"Consolidation of th= e Internet: From the Socio-Economic to the Architectural"
This documents refer to = "Consolidation in the Internet" which is of economic and architec= tural approaches and perspectives:

- ISOC Global Internet Report Consolidation in the Internet Economy https://future.internetsociety.org/2019/wp= -content/uploads/sites/2/2019/04/InternetSociety-GlobalInternetRe= port-ConsolidationintheInternetEconomy.pdf=C2=A0
- Arkko, Jarri et all., "Considerations= on the Internet Consolidation and the Internet Architecture", Interne= t-Draft, IETF, Expired April 2019 https://tools.ie= tf.org/html/draft-arkko-iab-internet-consolidation-00=C2=A0
- Sullivan, Andrew, "Thre= e Kinds of Concentration in Open Protocols", IAB-DEDR Workshop 2019 https://www.iab.org= /wp-content/IAB-uploads/2019/05/p7-sulllivan-three_kinds_concentr= ation_ajs_dedr.pdf=C2=A0
- Arkko, Jarri, "Centralized Architecture in Internet Architectur= e", Internet Draft, 2019=C2=A0
https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-= arkko-arch-infrastructure-centralisation-00.txt
Kutscher, Dirk, "Protocol Design and Socio= -economic Realities", in the IAB-DEDR Workshop 2019
https://www.iab.org/wp-content/IAB-uploads/2019/05/p14-kutscher-= internet-design-kutscher.pdf


Note: This post is related w= ith another one in this "Open Forum": Restream: Internet Consolid= ation: What Lies beneath the Application Layer..." (December 14th 2019= ) https://connect.internetsociety.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?GroupId=3D67&MessageKey=3D426220c6-e4= 1e-45c8-8872-7f0cc455f492&CommunityKey=3D3a9fa082-a518-475d-9= e7f-ecec4ffe56dd&tab=3Ddigestviewer&ReturnUrl=3D%2fcommun= ities%2fcommunity-home%2fdigestviewer%3fCommunityKey%3d3a9fa082-a= 518-475d-9e7f-ecec4ffe56dd






Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pad= a Jumat, 31 Januari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear Russ and architecture-discuss,=C2=A0

<= /div>

I am new there, I have not know muc "how to": = I think one needs to create an account in the Internet Society to join with= OPEN FORUM Community to access its features:

https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/


But at this architecture-discuss, where we are now, one may simply acce= ss its mail archives for the documents on "Consolidation of the Intern= et" --so it is nothing new but such a networked community of reading, = such a networked library:

https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/architecture-discuss/sdTkLd7q7wXyfAnjJQlNceWPr8U

I find no search engine facility for documents at OPEN FORUM community Libr= ary while there is one at architecture-discuss mail archive.
=
Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Jum= at, 31 Januari 2020, Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> menulis:
Is there a way to see the document without creating an account?
Russ


= On Jan 29, 2020, at 4:37 AM, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> wrote:

=
Dear architecture-discuss,

Documents related with t= he current issues on "consolidation of the Internet" saved in the= "Open Forum" community of the Internet Society:

--000000000000d9384505a04309ae-- From nobody Mon Mar 9 06:04:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF1CE3A0F47 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 2020 06:04:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ICkF8fjJLVtJ for ; Mon, 9 Mar 2020 06:04:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x32b.google.com (mail-ot1-x32b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D16783A0F49 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 2020 06:04:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x32b.google.com with SMTP id j14so9441457otq.3 for ; Mon, 09 Mar 2020 06:04:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ZDEXOvBV7bPI4tnevJ4cPPktouLbfHvEXhRLGLrIpPk=; b=mWPPXWi2QhFit5ZsoDbSLvctGYOHOosMJWawzuTPSqKIk3tpUCkCO+5F5+juke7WlA 1tn9ZgBgBBD0EdUTkqUmAw+f7IYTHsyDje0P6YTxFpBGxDoeCFj5S2FPyMAT4nGD/xsZ nxGNs/warg+3QCuzqVUIW8GJp11nOOw+H8yqgUOMp6Wbgb2ZRwHRv1xQhcHPEfIwt8ut krwjl1/qysT4vOznQAr0hRtXoT9N2EwAC6RLfYLgPTf6Mi2jW9q9lcHk3sK24++roPXc J+U2HYvw+Se2xg5DZPjKuaS1ayFZSVOzIXz9iUi12BSIfKbufE2e9ewSHD3Il0BIuoeN 1VFQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ZDEXOvBV7bPI4tnevJ4cPPktouLbfHvEXhRLGLrIpPk=; b=kI3W3j6BTi8ZH9DGn3s5vQoWLEaxp7e0Pr5DsrV9DR48pX7DQyUT7YIVVJLNB2vd/Y zmPVRHQcRIEQfZcQQ3VVCAy23CBeCyo54gwTFI0oswV/FbeWKsp23rOyrpDsnoP4wai0 RrVKJABl+RIEMcDPQiylRFLurp8bf4W68wRKhJEmsmN4qjFKAT9fNxgtsdv/oAOztxgB Y+yZg3kzvL+BUnf3jA6bqTLeguY37SJ1LWr8AWWpE926jwuDtmcTyTOJqv9PtTBKJRsq GfuCXTtL7TZs5VQLKyEQHQiRjxWuZasVxgNmX7WYXzHRr7uNSGTN1E84tpuUew2w8WqC njmA== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ3706SeViDhyEly/gWDeqkeynerpS2CXPcg3oXcp01thoYsbKg4 L+Sj7MWDTzqRd8Za8/CeW4m45znMKWV6xqhRoCf6rQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vusYbI0muImjY8iGrwymvxAIV20fUuI0cdZcf0XyYaeB6dvOokl0hbMkvlhBfGXzvlqTMMx/u5VJiQ8w2FjXbY= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:895:: with SMTP id 21mr12470257otf.365.1583759070559; Mon, 09 Mar 2020 06:04:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a9d:5cc7:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Mon, 9 Mar 2020 06:04:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <64D42558-19A2-469E-B027-B67FB52A5279@vigilsec.com> From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 20:04:30 +0700 Message-ID: To: Russ Housley Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000cf818305a06ba45b" Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] Network Architecture in the Internet Society X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2020 13:04:36 -0000 --000000000000cf818305a06ba45b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear architecture-discuss, This link http://www.nobel.se/index.html did not work well as it said "Page Not Found"; but these pages may help --there were sub-links: https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/economics/ and https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/uncategorized/the-sveriges-riksbank-prize= -in-economic-sciences-in-memory-of-alfred-nobel-1969-2007 Note: The Internet economy refers among others to "electronic market" which, I finded, has been facilitated by "RFC 2552: "Architecture for Information Brokerage in the ACTS Project GAIA" (Blinov, M. et all., Network Working Group-The Internet Society, 1999): Today electronic market for goods and services make it reasonable to rise such brokerage systems of trade assistance and information management concerning the relation between customers and suppliers. The attempts to design the domain and supplier independent generic architecture of such brokerage systems are worked on by project GAIA ( Generic Architecture for Information Availability) which is a standard. The document refers, among others, to RFC 2068 HTTP 1.1 and RFC 1866 HTML. https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc2552.txt Regard, Guntur Wiseno Putra Pada Sabtu, 07 Maret 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra menulis: > Dear architecture-discuss, > > There are ones, I modify what P. Nikander did ever say, happening to have > the Internet architects' minds: How should they (play and) work on (the > Internet economy and) such important historical works on economy...? > > > The 20th Century Works on Economy: "Historical" Ones --according to La > Soci=C3=A9t=C3=A9 d'=C3=89conomie Politique they progressed the economic = knowledge of the > century and 6 of the 10 plus one "joker" were Nobel Prize Winners...: > > > > Histoire =C3=A9conomique. > > [image: Image1]La Soci=C3=A9t=C3=A9 d=E2=80=99=C3=89conomie Politique pro= pose une liste de dix > textes (plus =C2=AB un joker =C2=BB) qui ont fait progresser la connaissa= nce > =C3=A9conomique au 20e si=C3=A8cle. > > 1906. Eugene B=C3=B6hm-Bawerk, =C2=AB The nature of capital =C2=BB, *Quat= erly Journal of > Economics*. > > 1919. Eli Heckscher, =C2=AB The effect of foreign trade on the distributi= on of > income =C2=BB, *Ekonomisk Tiksrift*. > > 1929. John Maynard Keynes, =C2=AB The german transfer problem =C2=BB, *Ec= onomic > Journal*. > > 1933. Ragnard Frisch, =C2=AB Propagation problems and impulse problems in > dynamic economics =C2=BB, in*Economic essays in honour of Gustav Cassel*. > > 1937. Ronald Coase, =C2=AB The nature of the firm =C2=BB, *Economica*. > > 1937. Freidrich Hayek, =C2=AB Economics and knowledge =C2=BB, *Economica*= . > > 1950. John Nash, =C2=AB The bargaining problem =C2=BB, *Econometrica*. > > 1961, John Muth, =C2=AB Rational expectations and the theory of price mov= ements > =C2=BB, *Econometrica*. > > 1969. Milton Friedman, =C2=AB The role of monetary policy =C2=BB, *Americ= an > Economic Review*. > > 1972. Robert Lucas, =C2=AB Expectations and the neutrality of money =C2= =BB, *Journal > of Economic Theory*. > > Jocker: 1970. George Akerlof, =C2=AB The market for =E2=80=9CLemons=E2=80= =9D: qualitative > uncertainty and the market mechanism =C2=BB, *Quaterly Journal of Economi= cs*. > > Six de ces auteurs (Frisch, Coase, Hayek, Nash, Friedman, Lucas) ont > obtenu le prix Nobel d=E2=80=99=C3=A9conomie. La Documentation Fran=C3=A7= aise propose en > ligne sur son site un dossier sur les prix Nobel d=E2=80=99=C3=A9conomie = depuis 1969, > date de la cr=C3=A9ation de cette r=C3=A9compense. > > Le site de La Documentation Fran=C3=A7aise > > Le lien direct pour t=C3=A9l=C3=A9charger (en format pdf) les fiches de l= a > Documentation Fran=C3=A7aise sur les prix Nobel d=E2=80=99=C3=A9conomie > > > Le site de la Fondation Nobel > > Le site de La Documentation Fran=C3=A7aise > Pour faire r=C3=A9f=C3=A9rence =C3=A0 cet article (ISO 690) > > > =C2=AB Histoire =C3=A9conomique. =C2=BB, *EspacesTemps.net* [En ligne], B= r=C3=A8ves, 2002 | > Mis en ligne le 26 avril 2002, consult=C3=A9 le 26.04.2002. URL : > https://www.espacestemps.net/articles/histoire-economique/ ; > > > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > Pada Selasa, 03 Maret 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra > menulis: > >> Dear architecture-discuss, >> >> >> >> Cyberspace, geography, economy and architecture: >> >> >> In "architecture" there are a moment to consider "principles that can be >> utilized to create order in an architectural composition" (F. D. K. Chin= g, >> "Architecture: Form, Space and Order", John Wiley & Sons, New Jersey & >> Canada, 2007, p. 338) among others there is "rythm" referring to "any >> movement characterized by a patterned recurrence of elements or motifs a= t >> regular or irregular intervals" (ibid., p. 382). Nikander ever noted the >> importance of noticing moments of repeatances ("Reflections on >> Architecture"). >> >> # A bibliography >> >> *) Space Economy >> >> Pour faire r=C3=A9f=C3=A9rence =C3=A0 cet article (ISO 690) >> >> Kevin Cox, =C2=AB The State and Varieties of Space Economy. =C2=BB, >> EspacesTemps.net [En ligne], Travaux, 2018 | Mis en ligne le 9 ao=C3=BBt= 2018, >> consult=C3=A9 le 09.08.2018. URL : https://www.espacestemps.net >> /articles/the-state-and-varieties-of-space-economy/ ; DOI : >> 10.26151/xpk0-5t53 >> >> *) Economy of Rythm >> >> Pour faire r=C3=A9f=C3=A9rence =C3=A0 cet article (ISO 690) >> >> Yves Crozet, =C2=AB =C3=89conomie des rythmes urbains. =C2=BB, EspacesTe= mps.net [En >> ligne], Travaux, 2019 | Mis en ligne le 9 mai 2019, consult=C3=A9 le 09.= 05.2019. >> URL : https://www.espacestemps.net/articles/economie-des-rythmes-urbains= / ; >> DOI : 10.26151/espacestemps.net-9a82-fr23 >> >> >> *) Rythm analysis >> >> - Pour faire r=C3=A9f=C3=A9rence =C3=A0 cet article (ISO 690) >> >> Guillaume Drevon, Luc Gwiazdzinski, Vincent Kaufmann et Luca Pattaroni, = =C2=AB >> Rythmes de vie(s), rythmes de ville(s). =C2=BB, EspacesTemps.net [En lig= ne], >> Traverses, 2018 | Mis en ligne le 21 d=C3=A9cembre 2018, consult=C3=A9 l= e 21.12.2018. >> URL : https://www.espacestemps.net/articles/rythmes-de-vies-ryth >> mes-de-villes/ ; DOI : 10.26151/espacestemps.net-m2z4-6535 >> >> - Pour faire r=C3=A9f=C3=A9rence =C3=A0 cet article (ISO 690) >> >> Maie G=C3=A9rardot, =C2=AB Penser en rythmes. =C2=BB, EspacesTemps.net [= En ligne], >> Travaux, 2007 | Mis en ligne le 8 d=C3=A9cembre 2007, consult=C3=A9 le 0= 8.12.2007. >> URL : https://www.espacestemps.net/articles/penser-en-rythmes/ >> >> # (Problems of) Methods of Readings >> >> It is supposedly interesting: notions tried in the bibliographies --but = I >> red it at glance so far: a guidance to arrive at the above bibligraphies= I >> need to make: >> >> (Request for) Comments is about commenting texts & Hyper Text (Transfer >> Protocol) is also about a technology may be related with such an >> understanding on reality as text (1): To the above bibliographies/texts >> there should be critical readings which is about interpretations and >> evaluations --if it is especially about planning/programming-- based on >> contexts which are among others real conditions --social, historical and >> other ones-- of readers. >> >> >> NOTE: >> >> - Hyperreality: reality as text. I tried to elaborate it in >> >> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-informationarchi >> tecture/2020Jan/0004.html >> >> >> Regard, >> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >> >> >> Pada Minggu, 01 Maret 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra >> menulis: >> >>> Dear architecture-discuss, >>> >>> Tim Berners-Lee said about "networks of languages" as those with what >>> users get engaged with the Web and the Internet: it was in "Stack of >>> Specification" as part of the "Design Issues: Architectural and >>> Philosophical Points"(1). So, architecturally thinking on "the Internet >>> economy" refers us to what were ever mentioned by these "E-Flux editors= " >>> >>> The Internet and the Economy of Languages...: >>> >>> Julieta Aranda, Brian Kuan Wood, and Anton Vidokle >>> Editorial=E2=80=94=E2=80=9FLanguage and Internet=E2=80=9D (2) >>> >>> "... >>> >>> As the role of the state in ensuring the value of currency has grown >>> weaker over the past few decades, markets have increasingly assumed the >>> qualities of language, of a "system of signs in which the only essentia= l >>> thing is the union of meanings" (Saussure). The other language economy = is >>> of course the internet, where it was thought that the immaterial qualit= ies >>> of language would evade limits in supply and demand. But now for some >>> reason, this promise reverses. As language becomes more free, everythin= g >>> else becomes incredibly expensive. This has made language, and the inte= rnet >>> with it, a class battleground now more than ever, because it represents >>> access to both knowledge and capital simultaneously. >>> >>> ...". >>> >>> https://www.e-flux.com/journal/45/60099/editorial-language-and-internet >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Note: >>> >>> (1) "The Internet works because of interoperability between different >>> computers, despite different hardware, operating systems, local languag= e >>> context, and software supplier. Users of the web sign on to the use of >>> these languages when they use the Internet". (TBL, "Stack of >>> Specifications") >>> >>> (2) I added this source to the Open Forum Library of the Internet >>> Society "Consolidation of the Internet: from the Socio-Economic to the >>> Architectural" >>> >>> >>> https://w3.org/DesignIssues/Stack.html >>> >>> >>> Regard, >>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> >>> Pada Selasa, 25 Februari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> menulis: >>> >>>> Dear architecture-discuss, >>>> >>>> Pekka Nikander, in "Reflections on Architecture" of the previous >>>> message, mentioned little about "economy and information (security)": = by >>>> this thread of "(Consolidation of) the Internet Economy: from the >>>> socio-economic to the architectural", I wander would these raw materia= ls of >>>> thought works for an economy of the Internet: >>>> >>>> >>>> "Goods and services: Here we are. What is it there...? What does happe= n >>>> there...? What could we make there...? Would our sad heart --because o= f >>>> stupidities/foolishness and failures-- be entertained...? Would our >>>> passions -- for truth, justice and beauty -- be well served...? --incl= uding >>>> of ourselves...? >>>> >>>> Those people either are or were great, it is said: for what they have >>>> made available to many others, for what they have made inspiring --say= ing >>>> about acceptances and denials by-- many others: concepts and technics.= Part >>>> of those things have been being through places and times, many countri= es >>>> and being made survived for decades, for centuries... Other part of th= ose >>>> things have been forgotten though ever enjoyed long celebrations: and,= yes, >>>> there were then revelations of what were silent before... They just to= ok >>>> rest while kept maintained in such simplicities until other things cam= e to >>>> and take them with new hopes, new happines, new plans, new games... (I= t is >>>> like a story on concepts in the making: with their histories, ...) >>>> >>>> ... >>>> >>>> Here we have more, here we lack of... There are others by whom we may >>>> talk to and exchange with... Farewell: just take journeys... (so it is= then >>>> here we are in journeys or we may be there in journeys...) >>>> >>>> ... >>>> >>>> "Here we have , here we lack of": does it not represent an >>>> understanding about "justice"...? What are about "truth" and "beauty".= ..? >>>> >>>> If it does refers us to a notion on "justice", or perhaps precisely >>>> "natural justice", if it is how "justice" works, then how do we take o= ur >>>> journeys..? >>>> >>>> Choices and risks, benefits and costs, gains and pains.... There are >>>> rules of games: is it not illusive not to think/to think otherwise tha= t >>>> profits are just equal to costs/sacrifices, that victories are equal t= o >>>> struggles...? And, there are as well the historical as the social, as = well >>>> succesive generations as consensus/collectivities/togetherness, we >>>> live in: of rules of games, of "justice". >>>> ... >>>> >>>> The circle, or the equation, of trust, responsibility, and facility... >>>> People trust ones in such ways to take responsibilities to provide the= m >>>> with goods or services accompanied by facilities to work on the >>>> responsibilities...--including such physio- and psychoterapies of rest= ... >>>> >>>> >>>> ...". >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Regard, >>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>> >>>> Pada Senin, 24 Februari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>> menulis: >>>> >>>>> Dear architecture-discuss, >>>>> >>>>> By opening files at www.ietfjournal.org I finded this out: Among >>>>> others this is one worked on by the IETF publication on "architecture= " >>>>> which mentioned also about "architecture-discuss" in the time of its >>>>> beginning --I then made it part of the entry on "Consolidation of the >>>>> Internet..." at the Internet Society's Open Forum Library: >>>>> >>>>> NETWORKING RESEARCHReflections on >>>>> >>>>> ArchitectureBy: Pekka Nikander >>>>> Dat= e: >>>>> December 2005 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> "I happen to have an architect=E2=80=99s mind. Looking at the network= of >>>>> today, I strongly feel the pain of the current architecture=E2=80=99s= cracking and >>>>> squeaking. Consequently, I believe that we =E2=80=93 the wider IETF c= ommunity >>>>> responsible for Internet technology =E2=80=93 need to re-think the ar= chitecture. We >>>>> need to find a way to re-create the core of the Internet in a way tha= t >>>>> leads to a new era of innovation and intellectual prosperity. The hig= hlight >>>>> of my IETF64 meeting in Vancouver was that I started to see signs of >>>>> interest and activity in the broader community to pursue such a goal. >>>>> >>>>> ... >>>>> >>>>> The IAB has recently created a new mailing list, architecture-discuss >>>>> [15], for wider discussion of architectural issues, which I hope will >>>>> develop into a valuable forum over time. I hope to see you there". >>>>> >>>>> https://www.ietfjournal.org/reflections-on-architecture >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Regard, >>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>> >>>>> Pada Jumat, 31 Januari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>> menulis: >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Russ & architecture-discuss, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I have just added Leva. T & H. Suommi's "Framework of Analyzing >>>>>> Feasibility of Internet Protocols" to the before-mentioned list of r= eadings >>>>>> by "Add Comment" Facility in the OPEN FORUM Community Library: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ### >>>>>> To the list of readings above (Consolidation of the Internet: from >>>>>> the Socio-Economic to the Architectural) may I add "Framework of Ana= lyzing >>>>>> Feasibility of Internet Potocols" (Leva, T. & H. Suommi, the IAB Wor= kshop >>>>>> on Internet Technology Adootion and Transition 2013) which was ever = to be >>>>>> part of architecture-discuss@ietf.org "Centralization or diversity?" >>>>>> January 22th 2020: >>>>>> >>>>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/architecture-discuss/s >>>>>> dTkLd7q7wXyfAnjJQlNceWPr8U >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ### >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Note: >>>>>> To clarify what I said in the previous message: >>>>>> I mean the architecture-discuss@ietf.org and the OPEN FORUM >>>>>> Community Library may be about a networked community of reading, a >>>>>> networked library. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Regard, >>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>> >>>>>> Pada Jumat, 31 Januari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>> menulis: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Russ and architecture-discuss, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The post in OPEN Forum Community Library is about those document >>>>>>> saved in the architecture-discuss mailarchive I mentioned above plu= s >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Arkko, Jarri et all., "Considerations on the Internet Consolidatio= n >>>>>>> and the Internet Architecture", Internet-Draft, IETF, Expired April= 2019 >>>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-iab-internet-consoli >>>>>>> dation-00 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> While, I have not included yet that of T. Leva and H. Suommi's... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I emphasized on socio-economic and architectural learnings attempte= d >>>>>>> by those documents there--while the post at architecture-discuss em= phazised >>>>>>> on feasibility of the Internet architecture in relation with aesthe= tic and >>>>>>> ethic experiences. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is what I saved in OPEN FORUM Community Library: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Consolidation of the Internet: From the Socio-Economic to the >>>>>>> Architectural" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This documents refer to "Consolidation in the Internet" which is of >>>>>>> economic and architectural approaches and perspectives: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - ISOC Global Internet Report Consolidation in the Internet Economy >>>>>>> https://future.internetsociety.org/2019/wp-content/uploads/s >>>>>>> ites/2/2019/04/InternetSociety-GlobalInternetReport-Consolid >>>>>>> ationintheInternetEconomy.pdf >>>>>>> - Arkko, Jarri et all., "Considerations on the Internet >>>>>>> Consolidation and the Internet Architecture", Internet-Draft, IETF,= Expired >>>>>>> April 2019 https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr >>>>>>> aft-arkko-iab-internet-consolidation-00 >>>>>>> - Sullivan, Andrew, "Three Kinds of Concentration in Open >>>>>>> Protocols", IAB-DEDR Workshop 2019 https://www.iab.org/wp-content >>>>>>> /IAB-uploads/2019/05/p7-sulllivan-three_kinds_concentration_ >>>>>>> ajs_dedr.pdf >>>>>>> - Arkko, Jarri, "Centralized Architecture in Internet Architecture"= , >>>>>>> Internet Draft, 2019 >>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-arkko-arch-infrastructure-cent >>>>>>> ralisation-00.txt >>>>>>> Kutscher, Dirk, "Protocol Design and Socio-economic Realities", in >>>>>>> the IAB-DEDR Workshop 2019 >>>>>>> https://www.iab.org/wp-content/IAB-uploads/2019/05/p14-kutsc >>>>>>> her-internet-design-kutscher.pdf >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Note: This post is related with another one in this "Open Forum": >>>>>>> Restream: Internet Consolidation: What Lies beneath the Application >>>>>>> Layer..." (December 14th 2019) https://connect.internetsociet >>>>>>> y.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?Gro >>>>>>> upId=3D67&MessageKey=3D426220c6-e41e-45c8-8872-7f0cc455f492&Comm >>>>>>> unityKey=3D3a9fa082-a518-475d-9e7f-ecec4ffe56dd&tab=3Ddigestview >>>>>>> er&ReturnUrl=3D%2fcommunities%2fcommunity-home%2fdigestviewer% >>>>>>> 3fCommunityKey%3d3a9fa082-a518-475d-9e7f-ecec4ffe56dd >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regard, >>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pada Jumat, 31 Januari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>>> menulis: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear Russ and architecture-discuss, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am new there, I have not know muc "how to": I think one needs to >>>>>>>> create an account in the Internet Society to join with OPEN FORUM = Community >>>>>>>> to access its features: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But at this architecture-discuss, where we are now, one may simply >>>>>>>> access its mail archives for the documents on "Consolidation of th= e >>>>>>>> Internet" --so it is nothing new but such a networked community of= reading, >>>>>>>> such a networked library: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/architecture-discuss/s >>>>>>>> dTkLd7q7wXyfAnjJQlNceWPr8U >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I find no search engine facility for documents at OPEN FORUM >>>>>>>> community Library while there is one at architecture-discuss mail = archive. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regard, >>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Pada Jumat, 31 Januari 2020, Russ Housley >>>>>>>> menulis: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Is there a way to see the document without creating an account? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Russ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Jan 29, 2020, at 4:37 AM, Guntur Wiseno Putra < >>>>>>>>> gsenopu@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dear architecture-discuss, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Documents related with the current issues on "consolidation of th= e >>>>>>>>> Internet" saved in the "Open Forum" community of the Internet Soc= iety: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> https://connect.internetsociety.org/viewdocument/consolidati >>>>>>>>> on-of-the-internet-from?CommunityKey=3D3a9fa082-a518-475d-9e7f >>>>>>>>> -ecec4ffe56dd&tab=3Dlibrarydocuments#ItemCommentPanel >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Regard, >>>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> --000000000000cf818305a06ba45b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear architecture-discuss,



This = link http://ww= w.nobel.se/index.html did not work well as it said "Page Not Found= ";=C2=A0
but these pages may help --there were sub-links:






Note: The Internet economy refers among others to &= quot;electronic market" which, I finded, has been facilitated by=C2=A0=


"RFC 2552: "Archi= tecture for Information Brokerage in the ACTS Project GAIA" (Blinov, M= . et all., Network Working Group-The Internet Society, 1999):

Today electronic market for good= s and services make it reasonable to rise such brokerage systems of trade a= ssistance and information management concerning the relation between custom= ers and suppliers.

The attempts to design the do= main and supplier independent generic architecture of such brokerage system= s are worked on by project GAIA ( Generic Architecture for Information Avai= lability) which is a standard.

The document refe= rs, among others, to RFC 2068 HTTP 1.1 and RFC 1866 HTML.
http= s://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc2552.txt



Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra=

Pada Sabtu, 07 Maret 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear architecture-discuss,

<= div>There are ones, I modify what P. Nikander did ever say, happening to ha= ve the Internet architects' minds: How should they (play and) work on (= the Internet economy and) such important historical works on economy...?


The 20th Century Works = on Economy: "Historical" Ones --according to La Soci=C3=A9t=C3=A9= d'=C3=89conomie Politique they progressed the economic knowledge of th= e century and 6 of the 10 plus one "joker" were Nobel Prize Winne= rs...:



Histoire =C3=A9conomique.

3D"Image1"La Soci= =C3=A9t=C3=A9 d=E2=80=99=C3=89conomie Politique propose une liste de dix te= xtes (plus =C2=AB un joker =C2=BB) qui ont fait progresser la connaissance = =C3=A9conomique au 20e=C2=A0si=C3=A8cle.

1906. = Eugene B=C3=B6hm-Bawerk, =C2=AB The nature of capital =C2=BB,=C2=A0Quaterly Journal of Economics= .

1919. Eli Hec= kscher, =C2=AB The effect of foreign trade on the distribution of income = =C2=BB,=C2=A0Ekonomisk Tik= srift.

192= 9. John Maynard Keynes, =C2=AB The german transfer problem =C2=BB,=C2=A0Economic Journal.

1933. Ragnard Frisch,= =C2=AB Propagation problems and impulse problems in dynamic economics =C2= =BB, inEconomic essays in = honour of Gustav Cassel.

1937. Ronald Coase, =C2=AB The nature of the firm =C2=BB,=C2= =A0Economica.

1937. Freidrich Hayek,= =C2=AB Economics and knowledge =C2=BB,=C2=A0Economica.

1950. John Nash, =C2=AB The bargaining problem =C2=BB= ,=C2=A0Econometrica.<= /p>

1961, John Muth= , =C2=AB Rational expectations and the theory of price movements =C2=BB,=C2= =A0Econometrica.

<= p lang=3D"fr-FR" dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"margin:15px 0px;border:0px;font-famil= y:verdana;font-size:11px;outline:0px;padding:0px;vertical-align:baseline;co= lor:rgb(51,51,51);line-height:1.5em;text-align:justify">1969. Milton Friedm= an, =C2=AB The role of monetary policy =C2=BB,=C2=A0American Economic Review.

1972. Robert Lucas, =C2=AB Expect= ations and the neutrality of money =C2=BB,=C2=A0Journal of Economic Theory.

Jocker: 1970. George Akerlof, =C2= =AB The market for =E2=80=9CLemons=E2=80=9D: qualitative uncertainty and th= e market mechanism =C2=BB,=C2=A0Quaterly Journal of Economics.

Six de ces auteurs (Frisch, Coase, Hayek, Nash, = Friedman, Lucas) ont obtenu le prix Nobel d=E2=80=99=C3=A9conomie. La Docum= entation Fran=C3=A7aise propose en ligne sur son site un dossier sur les pr= ix Nobel d=E2=80=99=C3=A9conomie depuis 1969, date de la cr=C3=A9ation de c= ette r=C3=A9compense.

Le site de La Documentation Fran=C3=A7aise

Le lien dire= ct pour t=C3=A9l=C3=A9charger (en format=C2=A0pdf) les fiches de la Doc= umentation Fran=C3=A7aise sur les=C2=A0prix Nobel d=E2=80=99=C3=A9conomie

Le site de la=C2=A0Fon= dation Nobel

Le site de La Documentation Fran=C3=A7aise

Pour faire r=C3=A9f=C3=A9rence =C3=A0 cet article (ISO 690)=

=C2=AB=C2=A0Histoire =C3=A9conomique.=C2= =A0=C2=BB,=C2=A0EspacesTem= ps.net=C2=A0[En ligne], Br=C3=A8ves, 2002 | Mis en ligne le 26 av= ril 2002, consult=C3=A9 le 26.04.2002. URL : https://www.espa= cestemps.net/articles/histoire-economique/ ;

<= br>

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

P= ada Selasa, 03 Maret 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear architecture-discuss,



Cyberspace, geography, economy and architect= ure:


In "architecture" th= ere are a moment to consider "principles that can be utilized to creat= e order in an architectural composition" (F. D. K. Ching, "Archit= ecture: Form, Space and Order", John Wiley & Sons, New Jersey &= ; Canada, 2007, p. 338) among others there is "rythm" referring t= o "any movement characterized by a patterned recurrence of elements or= motifs at regular or irregular intervals" (ibid., p. 382). Nikander e= ver noted the importance of noticing moments of repeatances ("Reflecti= ons on Architecture").

# A bibliography<= /div>

*) Space Economy

Pour fai= re r=C3=A9f=C3=A9rence =C3=A0 cet article (ISO 690)

Kevin Cox, =C2= =AB The State and Varieties of Space Economy. =C2=BB, EspacesTemps.net [En = ligne], Travaux, 2018 | Mis en ligne le 9 ao=C3=BBt 2018, consult=C3=A9 le = 09.08.2018. URL :=C2=A0https://www.espac= estemps.net/articles/the-state-and-varieties-of-space-economy/=C2=A0; DOI : 10.26151/xpk0-5t53



*) Rythm analysis

- Pour f= aire r=C3=A9f=C3=A9rence =C3=A0 cet article (ISO 690)

Guillaume Dr= evon, Luc Gwiazdzinski, Vincent Kaufmann et Luca Pattaroni, =C2=AB Rythmes = de vie(s), rythmes de ville(s). =C2=BB, EspacesTemps.net [En ligne], Traver= ses, 2018 | Mis en ligne le 21 d=C3=A9cembre 2018, consult=C3=A9 le 21.12.2= 018. URL :=C2=A0https://www.espacestemps.net/articles/rythmes-de-vies-rythmes-de-villes/=C2=A0; DOI : 10.261= 51/espacestemps.net-m2z4-6535

- Pour faire r=C3= =A9f=C3=A9rence =C3=A0 cet article (ISO 690)

Maie G=C3=A9= rardot, =C2=AB Penser en rythmes. =C2=BB, EspacesTemps.net [En ligne], Trav= aux, 2007 | Mis en ligne le 8 d=C3=A9cembre 2007, consult=C3=A9 le 08.12.20= 07. URL :=C2=A0https://www.espacestemps.net/articles/pense= r-en-rythmes/=C2=A0

# (Problems of) Method= s of Readings

It is supposedly interesting: notion= s tried in the bibliographies --but I red it at glance so far: a guidance t= o arrive at the above bibligraphies I need to make:

(Request for) Comments is about commenting texts & Hyper Text (Transf= er Protocol) is also about a technology may be related with such an underst= anding on reality as text (1): To the above bibliographies/texts there shou= ld be critical readings which is about interpretations and evaluations --if= it is especially about planning/programming-- based on contexts which are = among others real conditions --social, historical and other ones-- of reade= rs.


NOTE:

= - Hyperreality: reality as text. I tried to elaborate it in



Pada Minggu, 01 Maret 2020, Guntu= r Wiseno Putra <g= senopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear ar= chitecture-discuss,

Tim Berners-Lee said about "net= works of languages" as those with what users get engaged with the Web = and the Internet: it was in "Stack of Specification" as part of t= he "Design Issues: Architectural and Philosophical Points"(1). So= , architecturally thinking on "the Internet economy" refers us to= what were ever mentioned by these "E-Flux editors"
The Internet and the Economy of Languages..= .:

Julieta Aranda, Brian Kuan Wood, and Anton Vidokle
Editorial=E2=80=94=E2=80=9FLanguag= e and Internet=E2=80=9D (2)

"...

As the role of the state in en= suring the value of currency has grown weaker over the past few decades, ma= rkets have increasingly assumed the qualities of language, of a "syste= m of signs in which the only essential thing is the union of meanings"= (Saussure). The other language economy is of course the internet, where it= was thought that the immaterial qualities of language would evade limits i= n supply and demand. But now for some reason, this promise reverses. As lan= guage becomes more free, everything else becomes incredibly expensive. This= has made language, and the internet with it, a class battleground now more= than ever, because it represents access to both knowledge and capital simu= ltaneously.

...".

https://www.e-flux.com/journa= l/45/60099/editorial-language-and-internet















Note:

(1) =C2=A0"The Internet works because of interoperability between different = computers, despite different hardware, operating systems, local language co= ntext, and software supplier. Users of the web sign on to the use of these = languages when they use the Internet". (TBL, "Stack of Specificat= ions")

<= /div>
(2) I added this source to the Open Fo= rum Library of the Internet Society "Consolidation of the Internet: fr= om the Socio-Economic to the Architectural"


https://w3.org= /DesignIssues/Stack.html=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0


Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Selasa,= 25 Februari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear architecture-discuss,

Pekka Nikand= er, in "Reflections on Architecture" of the previous message, men= tioned little about "economy and information (security)": by this= thread of "(Consolidation of) the Internet Economy: from the socio-ec= onomic to the architectural", I wander would these raw materials of th= ought works for an economy of the Internet:


"Goods and services: Here we are. What is it there...? What d= oes happen there...? What could we make there...? Would our sad heart --bec= ause of stupidities/foolishness and failures-- be entertained...? Would our= passions -- for truth, justice and beauty -- be well served...? --includin= g of ourselves...?

Those people either are or were great, it is said: for what they have made = available to many others, for what they have made inspiring --saying about = acceptances and denials by-- many others: concepts and technics. Part of th= ose things have been being through places and times, many countries and bei= ng made survived for decades, for centuries... Other part of those things h= ave been forgotten though ever enjoyed long celebrations: and, yes, there w= ere then revelations of what were silent before... They just took rest whil= e kept maintained in such simplicities until other things came to and take = them with new hopes, new happines, new plans, new games... (It is like a st= ory on concepts in the making: with their histories, ...)

...

Here we have more, here we lack of... There are others by whom we may talk = to and exchange with...=C2=A0Farewell: just take journeys... (so it is then= here we are in journeys or we may be there in journeys...)

...

"Here we have , here we lack of": does it not represent an unders= tanding about "justice"...? What are about "truth" and = "beauty"...?

If it does refers us to a notion on "justice", or perhaps precise= ly "natural justice", if it is how "justice" works, the= n how do we take our journeys..?

Choices and risks, benefits and co= sts, gains and pains.... There are rules of games: is it not illusive not t= o think/to think otherwise that profits are just equal to costs/sacrifices,= that victories are equal to struggles...? And, there are as well the histo= rical as the social, as well succesive generations as consensus/collectivit= ies/togetherness, we live in: of rules of games, of "justice"= ;.=C2=A0
...

The circle, or the equation, of trust, responsibility, and facility... = People trust ones in such ways to take responsibilities to provide them wit= h goods or services accompanied by facilities to work on the responsibiliti= es...--including such physio- and psychoterapies of rest...=C2=A0


...".



Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Senin, 24 Februari 2020, Guntur Wi= seno Putra <gseno= pu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear archit= ecture-discuss,

By opening files at www.ietfjournal.org I finded this = out: Among others this is one worked on by the IETF publication on "ar= chitecture" which mentioned also about "architecture-discuss"= ; in the time of its beginning --I then made it part of the entry on "= Consolidation of the Internet..." at the Internet Society's Open F= orum Library:

NETWORKING RESEARCH

Reflections on

Architecture

By:=C2=A0P= ekka Nikander

Date: December 2005


<= span style=3D"color:rgb(34,31,31);font-family:Roboto;font-style:normal;lett= er-spacing:normal;line-height:32px;text-transform:none">"I happen to h= ave an architect=E2=80=99s mind. Looking at the network of today, I strongl= y feel the pain of the current architecture=E2=80=99s cracking and squeakin= g. Consequently, I believe that we =E2=80=93 the wider IETF community respo= nsible for Internet technology =E2=80=93 need to re-think the architecture.= We need to find a way to re-create the core of the Internet in a way that = leads to a new era of innovation and intellectual prosperity. The highlight= of my IETF64 meeting in Vancouver was that I started to see signs of inter= est and activity in the broader community to pursue such a goal.

...

T= he IAB has recently created a new mailing list, architecture-discuss [15], = for wider discussion of architectural issues, which I hope will develop int= o a valuable forum over time. I hope to see you there".

https://www.ietfjournal.org/reflections-on-architecture


<= div style=3D"font-size:16px;line-height:24px;padding:0px 0.75rem;float:left= ;width:311.59375px;margin-left:auto">


Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Juma= t, 31 Januari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear Russ & architecture-discuss,

=
I have just added Leva. T & H. Suommi's "Framew= ork of Analyzing Feasibility of Internet Protocols" to the before-ment= ioned list of readings by "Add Comment" Facility in the OPEN FORU= M Community Library:


###
= To the list of readings above (Consolidation of the Internet: from the Soc= io-Economic to the Architectural) may I add "Framework of Analyzing Fe= asibility of Internet Potocols" (Leva, T. & H. Suommi, the IAB Wor= kshop on Internet Technology Adootion and Transition 2013) which was ever t= o be part of architecture-discuss@ietf.org "Centralization or diversity?&q= uot; January 22th 2020:

http= s://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/architecture-discuss/sdTkLd7q7w= XyfAnjJQlNceWPr8U


##= #




Not= e:=C2=A0
To clarify what I said in the previous message:=C2=A0
I mean the architecture-discuss@ietf.org and the OPEN FORUM Community = Library may be about a networked community of reading, a networked library.=





=

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada= Jumat, 31 Januari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear Russ and architecture-discuss,

The post =C2=A0in OPEN Forum Community Library is about those document s= aved in the architecture-discuss mailarchive I mentioned above plus=C2=A0

=C2=A0Arkko, Jarri et all., &q= uot;Considerations on the Internet Consolidation and the Internet Architect= ure", Internet-Draft, IETF, Expired April 2019 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-iab-internet-consolidat= ion-00=C2=A0

While, I have not in= cluded yet that of T. Leva and H. Suommi's...

I emphasized on socio-economic and architectural learnings attempted= by those documents there--while the post at architecture-discuss emphazise= d on feasibility of the Internet architecture in relation with aesthetic an= d ethic experiences.

This is what I saved in OPEN = FORUM Community Library:

"Consolidation of th= e Internet: From the Socio-Economic to the Architectural"
This documents refer to = "Consolidation in the Internet" which is of economic and architec= tural approaches and perspectives:

- ISOC Global Internet Report Consolidation in the Internet Economy https://future.internetsociety.org/2019/wp= -content/uploads/sites/2/2019/04/InternetSociety-GlobalInternetRe= port-ConsolidationintheInternetEconomy.pdf=C2=A0
- Arkko, Jarri et all., "Considerations= on the Internet Consolidation and the Internet Architecture", Interne= t-Draft, IETF, Expired April 2019 https://tools.ie= tf.org/html/draft-arkko-iab-internet-consolidation-00=C2=A0
- Sullivan, Andrew, "Thre= e Kinds of Concentration in Open Protocols", IAB-DEDR Workshop 2019 https://www.iab.org= /wp-content/IAB-uploads/2019/05/p7-sulllivan-three_kinds_concentr= ation_ajs_dedr.pdf=C2=A0
- Arkko, Jarri, "Centralized Architecture in Internet Architectur= e", Internet Draft, 2019=C2=A0
https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-= arkko-arch-infrastructure-centralisation-00.txt
Kutscher, Dirk, "Protocol Design and Socio= -economic Realities", in the IAB-DEDR Workshop 2019
https://www.iab.org/wp-content/IAB-uploads/2019/05/p14-kutscher-= internet-design-kutscher.pdf


Note: This post is related w= ith another one in this "Open Forum": Restream: Internet Consolid= ation: What Lies beneath the Application Layer..." (December 14th 2019= ) https://connect.internetsociety.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?GroupId=3D67&MessageKey=3D426220c6-e4= 1e-45c8-8872-7f0cc455f492&CommunityKey=3D3a9fa082-a518-475d-9= e7f-ecec4ffe56dd&tab=3Ddigestviewer&ReturnUrl=3D%2fcommun= ities%2fcommunity-home%2fdigestviewer%3fCommunityKey%3d3a9fa082-a= 518-475d-9e7f-ecec4ffe56dd






Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pad= a Jumat, 31 Januari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear Russ and architecture-discuss,=C2=A0

<= /div>

I am new there, I have not know muc "how to": = I think one needs to create an account in the Internet Society to join with= OPEN FORUM Community to access its features:

https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/


But at this architecture-discuss, where we are now, one may simply acce= ss its mail archives for the documents on "Consolidation of the Intern= et" --so it is nothing new but such a networked community of reading, = such a networked library:

https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/architecture-discuss/sdTkLd7q7wXyfAnjJQlNceWPr8U

I find no search engine facility for documents at OPEN FORUM community Libr= ary while there is one at architecture-discuss mail archive.
=
Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Jum= at, 31 Januari 2020, Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> menulis:
Is there a way to see the document without creating an account?
Russ


= On Jan 29, 2020, at 4:37 AM, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> wrote:

=
Dear architecture-discuss,

Documents related with t= he current issues on "consolidation of the Internet" saved in the= "Open Forum" community of the Internet Society:

--000000000000cf818305a06ba45b-- From nobody Wed Mar 11 18:18:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39C253A0FA9; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 18:18:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IAB Executive Administrative Manager To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.120.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <158397590815.19614.9311535104267352406@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 18:18:28 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] IAB Adoption of draft-iab-dedr-report-00 X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 01:18:28 -0000 The IAB will discuss adoption of draft-iab-dedr-report-00 at an upcoming meeting in April. The draft can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iab-dedr-report/ IAB agendas are posted 48 hours ahead of the meeting here: https://www.iab.org/wiki/index.php/Agenda Feedback about this draft can be sent in response to this mail on architecture-discuss@ietf.org, or to the IAB directly at iab@iab.org. From nobody Thu Mar 12 07:34:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D4F33A0A3D; Thu, 12 Mar 2020 07:33:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cm0dlwB5_Up0; Thu, 12 Mar 2020 07:33:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EAE283A0A32; Thu, 12 Mar 2020 07:33:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.10] (unknown [181.45.84.85]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CA8AB80809; Thu, 12 Mar 2020 15:33:52 +0100 (CET) References: <5B2C5BAC-39DE-4770-BA46-DDC2C7F3598F@gmail.com> To: architecture-discuss@iab.org, Internet Architecture Board From: Fernando Gont X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <5B2C5BAC-39DE-4770-BA46-DDC2C7F3598F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <12e7ac13-84fb-fd8e-aefc-6ad9f2c8ba4f@si6networks.com> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 11:17:50 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5B2C5BAC-39DE-4770-BA46-DDC2C7F3598F@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] Fwd: Re: [spring] Draft-ietf-spring-network-programming ipv6 addressing architecture - was draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture? X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 14:34:00 -0000 IAB & Folks, These are yet more architectural changes taking place, without proper oversight. In this case, the document being the "IPV6 Addressing Architecture". Just felt like raising it, like I did for others, IMHO without much success. Thanks, Fernando -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Re: [spring] Draft-ietf-spring-network-programming ipv6 addressing architecture - was draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture? Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 17:39:30 -0700 From: Bob Hinden To: Brian Carpenter CC: Ron Bonica , spring@ietf.org , Bob Hinden , IPv6 List Brian, > On Mar 11, 2020, at 2:30 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > On 12-Mar-20 09:53, Andrew Alston wrote: >> Hi Spring WG >> >> >> >> On the basis of the below – I must conclude that the issues relating the SID/IPv6 semantics have indeed not been dealt with by the spring working group in the context of the network programming draft – and I would now like to raise those issues in the context of that draft – and the fact that draft-ietf-spring-network-programming violates the address semantic specifications of RFC4291. > > I really think that this is subsidiary to RFC 8402 (a Proposed Standard): > > SR can be applied to the IPv6 architecture with a new type of routing > header called the SR Header (SRH) [IPv6-SRH]. An instruction is > associated with a segment and encoded as an IPv6 address. An SRv6 > segment is also called an SRv6 SID. An SR Policy is instantiated as > an ordered list of SRv6 SIDs in the routing header. > > I don't see anything in the SRH draft or the network-programming draft > that is not within that definition. Whether RFC 8402 contravenes RFC 4291 > is worth discussing, I guess. The latter says: > > IPv6 addresses of all types are assigned to interfaces, not nodes. > An IPv6 unicast address refers to a single interface. Since each > interface belongs to a single node, any of that node's interfaces' > unicast addresses may be used as an identifier for the node. > > However, I can't find anything in RFC 4291 that forbids addresses > having semantic meanings rather than being pure locators. It goes > against one of my design prejudices, but I can't find anything > resembling "Encoding semantics in address bits considered harmful" > in the RFCs. RFC4291 in Section 2.5.4 does say: Except for the knowledge of the subnet boundary discussed in the previous paragraphs, nodes should not make any assumptions about the structure of an IPv6 address. Bob > In reality, there are lots of operational practices that amount to > giving semantic meanings to address bits. > > Brian > >> >> >> >> Can we please have a proper discussion on this >> >> >> >> Thanks >> >> >> >> Andrew >> >> >> >> >> >> *From: *"Darren Dukes (ddukes)" >> *Date: *Wednesday, 11 March 2020 at 22:03 >> *To: *Ron Bonica >> *Cc: *Andrew Alston , 6man WG >> *Subject: *Re: draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture? >> >> >> >> Hi Ron, I made no comment in this thread on draft-ietf-spring-network-programming. >> >> >> >> Darren >> >> >> >> On Mar 11, 2020, at 2:55 PM, Ron Bonica > wrote: >> >> >> >> Darren, >> >> >> >> Didn’t we agree to close issue 66 because draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing header contains no text regarding SID/IPv6 address semantics. If that’s the case, how can you say that closing issue 66 implies WG consensus around SID/IPv6 address semantic proposed in draft-ietf-6man-network-programming? >> >> >> >> Ron >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Juniper Business Use Only >> >> *From:* ipv6 > *On Behalf Of *Darren Dukes (ddukes) >> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 10, 2020 12:07 PM >> *To:* EXT-Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com > >> *Cc:* 6man WG > >> *Subject:* Re: draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture? >> >> >> >> Hi Andrew please see issue #66 for the closure record. >> >> >> >> https://trac.ietf.org/trac/6man/ticket/66 >> >> >> >> Darren >> >> >> >> On Mar 9, 2020, at 3:18 PM, Andrew Alston > wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi Darren >> >> >> >>> Hi Mark, the working group discussed the >> >> > association with RFC4291 and closed it with >> >> > the text in the document. >> >> >> >> Can we get a reference to these discussions please - would just be useful to back and refresh memories and wasn’t able to find them >> >> >> >> Thanks >> >> >> >> Andrew >> >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >> ipv6@ietf.org >> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring From nobody Thu Mar 12 15:31:04 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6576B3A08CD for ; Thu, 12 Mar 2020 15:31:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.696 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.696 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=elandsys.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0_lzu7ySSzSG for ; Thu, 12 Mar 2020 15:31:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.elandsys.com (mx.elandsys.com [162.213.2.210]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A6963A08CB for ; Thu, 12 Mar 2020 15:30:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DESKTOP-K6V9C2L.elandsys.com ([102.116.72.36]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.15.2/8.14.5) with ESMTPSA id 02CMUikS013241 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 12 Mar 2020 15:30:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1584052256; x=1584138656; i=@elandsys.com; bh=wO+L5W0sb/DnfMVvy4GuqJNXfuiS7+RNraPfEvDaWwE=; h=Date:To:From:Subject; b=3bpQw5RdmePohtiNIR8N5OLqeccyb/GiGA6VVmUBPYfYDiQ6GVFy2YApuYWEcZhFZ 4LML8s3Dwi/p+bnrvJFWdkmDYj/qqGri0CSycOYipKkdlPMs1Oy8r9g3425ZR83bKn eis/wCWJjlaIrskHbJzjh5IboN9o6N+xV7KKVqqs= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20200312144637.0b369838@elandsys.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 15:30:25 -0700 To: Fernando Gont , architecture-discuss@iab.org From: S Moonesamy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Fwd: Re: [spring] Draft-ietf-spring-network-programming ipv6 addressing architecture - was draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 violating RFC4291, IPv6 Addressing Architecture? X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 22:31:03 -0000 Hi Fernando, At 07:17 AM 12-03-2020, Fernando Gont wrote: >These are yet more architectural changes taking place, without >proper oversight. In this case, the document being the "IPV6 >Addressing Architecture". > >Just felt like raising it, like I did for others, IMHO without much success. The IAB does not do architecture oversight of documents intended to be "standards". I just noticed that an IAB member is not advocating for a position which the IAB took. Anyway, that is not what you asked about. Please see below. The Area Directors responsible for ensuring that the working groups falling within their Area produced architecturally consistent output. My guess is that it happens when the Area Director(s) is an expert on the working group topic. It can be controversial if an Area Director is too insistent about architectural purity. Regards, S. Moonesamy From nobody Sat Mar 14 08:03:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F30063A1601 for ; Sat, 14 Mar 2020 08:03:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.088 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.088 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_REMOTE_IMAGE=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o3_WZdbz5r_Q for ; Sat, 14 Mar 2020 08:03:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x230.google.com (mail-oi1-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5EF6D3A15FA for ; Sat, 14 Mar 2020 08:03:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x230.google.com with SMTP id k8so11388591oik.2 for ; Sat, 14 Mar 2020 08:03:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=1GSwizEQq+Wf+NLGgqbGtYXF3pAG3Y+ZGuU9HARvMLE=; b=ev4k+AWiYElBMF5V4j39F6MSYEVLovm7NcKJnViXl+v08rgtcLGRB1qHdk07Vgu+ZG QuI6FAjuPJxcncTAYt7r37QZzmGRrT6cfkYfTTgax01qxFDF/PVcsIAWHiC7NeE6w9Z4 vtEviBBBoFOFPzdKY3enINdrEsAFSbCloPA9NTqQg9ob2nbWQMoSxjv+65k9UX6TtPXQ txoN8PqEhuuuR4UVSX17nRhGLJlWir3zh24uFmHaa1HtcrU2GxlnOOyRLcR1PukQj8Mc Dee6Hvi00CzH5NHoydlbgE3028WD/zYcby3ACLY3kbWRf8WpQ3+f9D3iH8kNf3Nzmr0p a+OA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=1GSwizEQq+Wf+NLGgqbGtYXF3pAG3Y+ZGuU9HARvMLE=; b=OUzjnUMm/2NSD7GZ4giamtRZ6ITUI2UACD06VcxxNrzEiX9E/ezagRw9bZadU7pLKA b2ukVL6y+/MDWMBenYtHoM7c6tp4D/jHjsUolRV8x8BHWlnhhXCOPOloDCRPA9/1s8ie aQlylkRYWtbCWGM+kbKGVeRi6GaqcghBVZb3oCPPkiOZspMpIyP7pBlAAQy1xYiJqy9V shmBeDNeGCxI2V8cxzrHJkxKAzxsSk663mYd+WUjy2iQU5dNM6m9JxLUx59FXEqP3x6a AjAy/X7wAX7+KKa41BWKSJPpYGfu6bYRkIBkNuQKfAmkVkRFpP3DPjCwW9psTVgCvfBV slDg== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ0dl/P+AX7XAUDxXqbXkJwPgjwKPJsrcDebTwdkiuV7xHUMdzPZ 9O/sR+kbxT9esUwXGQZ1rSGBr0R54c4lsO5ykAU09A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vvb4o0wHnkIX9Ap9crx4PP1nkZlT9cB63E4lhEUeGG1gB0qXp/tzG5Ml8/BeWJdW4bq/cF+S5MG0E6QjykBcpk= X-Received: by 2002:a54:4396:: with SMTP id u22mr11359487oiv.128.1584198210383; Sat, 14 Mar 2020 08:03:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a9d:5cc7:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Sat, 14 Mar 2020 08:03:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2020 22:03:30 +0700 Message-ID: To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009571c105a0d1e381" Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] 31st Anniversary of the Web: a Historical Moment of the Internet Architecture X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2020 15:03:33 -0000 --0000000000009571c105a0d1e381 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear architecture-discuss, >From 2002/3 text of T. Berners-Lee's "Design Issues: Architectural and Philosophical Points" section "Stack of Specifications": It is about having Ethernet cables, sending Internet (Protocol) packet, sending Transmission Control Protocol packet and publishing a Webpage (and publishing XML focument and publishing a RDF document): https://w3.org/DesignIssues/Stack.html Now then it is about a celebration of 31st annivesary of the Web. This is from https://www.w3.org/ I have just accessed minutes ago Join us in celebrating the 31st birthday of the World Wide Web 12 March 2020 | Archive [image: Tim Berners-Lee quote: The Web is humanity connected by technology.= ] In March 1989 *Sir Tim Berners-Lee wrote =E2=80=9CInformation Management: A Proposal =E2=80=9D and with that quie= t act launched an idea, the World Wide Web*, that has changed our lives forever. The Web was envisioned by Tim as a global information-sharing space that would connect people and encourage understanding and sharing of knowledge. It is now an indispensable, exciting and, in some cases a vital global commons. We are incredibly grateful to our Director, Tim Berners-Lee, for the invention of the Web, for founding the World Wide Web Consortium, for all his work to keep the Web open, international, accessible, and for his decades of inspiration to so many of us. For 25 years, the Web Consortium has developed the foundational technical standards upon which the Web has flourished. Please read more about our values in our blog post . If you are part of our community, helping to develop technologies for the web with the Web Consortium, *thank you*. Let others know that the Web was made to work for everyone. Let your family and friends know why your work at the Web Consortium =E2=80=93*to make a web for all*=E2=80=93 matters. Thank you again, Tim! Happy Birthday, World Wide Web! Let=E2=80=99s all keep doing our part to keep making the Web and the world = better. *The Web Consortium: making the web work, for everyone.* Regard, Guntur Wiseno Putra --0000000000009571c105a0d1e381 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear architecture-discuss,

From 2002/3 text of T. Berner= s-Lee's "Design Issues: Architectural and Philosophical Points&quo= t; section "Stack of Specifications": It is about having Ethernet= cables, sending Internet (Protocol) packet, sending Transmission Control P= rotocol packet and publishing a Webpage (and publishing XML focument and pu= blishing a RDF document):


Now then it is about a celeb= ration of 31st annivesary of the Web.


This is from https://www.w3.org/ I h= ave just accessed minutes ago


Join us in celebrating the 31st birthday of the World Wide= Web

12 March 2020=C2=A0|=C2=A0Archive

=

3D"TimIn March 1989=C2=A0Sir Tim Berners-Lee= wrote =E2=80=9CInformation Ma= nagement: A Proposal=E2=80=9D and with that quiet act launched an idea,= the World Wide Web, that has changed our lives forever.

The Web was envisioned by Tim as a gl= obal information-sharing space that would connect people and encourage unde= rstanding and sharing of knowledge. It is now an indispensable, exciting an= d, in some cases a vital global commons. We are incredibly grateful to our = Director, Tim Berners-Lee, for the invention of the Web, for founding the W= orld Wide Web Consortium, for all his work to keep the Web open, internatio= nal, accessible, and for his decades of inspiration to so many of us.

For 25 years, the Web Consortium = has developed the foundational technical standards upon which the Web has f= lourished. Please read more about our values in our=C2=A0blog post.

If you are part of our community, helpi= ng to develop technologies for the web with the Web Consortium,=C2=A0thank you. Let others know that the Web was made to work for eve= ryone. Let your family and friends know why your work at the Web Consortium= =E2=80=93to make a web for all=E2=80=93 matters.

Thank you again, Tim! Happy Birthday= , World Wide Web!

Let=E2=80= =99s all keep doing our part to keep making the Web and the world better.

The Web Consortium: makin= g the web work, for everyone.



<= /div>
Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra
--0000000000009571c105a0d1e381-- From nobody Tue Mar 17 23:59:52 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A38A23A09F3 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 2020 23:59:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0U8NPBdXi175 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 2020 23:59:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x344.google.com (mail-ot1-x344.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::344]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 087D33A09EF for ; Tue, 17 Mar 2020 23:59:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x344.google.com with SMTP id r2so9024585otn.6 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 2020 23:59:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ttBBsTOeIJ/ine6kMgGykdSd3M9ZjWLLVALW8LdF0dY=; b=Xe5Noea5CosVkGEQTl9LnYyaWaLFneo2wEY/O0KMzzcX4fVpOZtBkFOkhpmRndnwg7 0o9xYSaOL8U0wmPF/KzrFbqMAUX/vbh7PAc0s8B0uFGRY3E+jC8ulQy/P0ao/7ofuFvQ EEZV1u4LiRwuJ9p2Y4OXsX2fxh0VZgaC0HdSWsUe7QrQUQElphrH3OdHUpqX2+H9D8Ix Uv7BWkHzSIdo3jHNo8xUc4tV9gQRND7K6peEzxM4MmUXcCWZ6FGb5qQlqNmbS/IyKSMu 8/CDy1RS+RgZczRNX/zYQOvlk46B/Yu2Vy8uahLXxGc2hdz2SmTlAFg8T8ZjHVyX0qxI JWIw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ttBBsTOeIJ/ine6kMgGykdSd3M9ZjWLLVALW8LdF0dY=; b=qGexvsUSsiGLla3NCqnzoz3qeVQ9d98a4a2ZJCuKEup0pn6P1zGGdPqJFmE0+YAF37 vLa1iVf6J2FOKkKeNxmbDbzNqN4raWxRULofBx4UvPRuS/1knjHRsyBL2b0hucw/khXc hxkN+/jHhP1A3Zo4Oa0udIvRnBdaNuuJfdNaVYlgLv+p331eSdOvn9Mp2RZKBcJAJSK2 DI0gPPxgxWSgi5lx7RknGBJ1bMcbU6S1k6rDa/5VEsQqYLGcULLyVAydaoFiwm38dFhG KNaHv9h4+bEEvULUAy3+sf6XmtX4uRUSrgokZbbetxBKgLTS42JDxPYO45FiSAQF3rfc hOUQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ0vf8ntGoSZyF507n8sr7sNmevsxakfTh44fH8F9DUGpl0CMR+N OVH/US1eNO/nnbaGCYsBp1p+Ulzsk2nPOSQmiLJTGw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vtOlOTA4dnZNUshspjBfzaR2ChFpdUL1aTV05q+F08g+GCdQ6a/LILOJ0yhb9/+vSVz2BdGvSgOYrGHuPtVekk= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:895:: with SMTP id 21mr2486495otf.365.1584514782940; Tue, 17 Mar 2020 23:59:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a9d:5cc7:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Mar 2020 23:59:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <64D42558-19A2-469E-B027-B67FB52A5279@vigilsec.com> From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 13:59:42 +0700 Message-ID: To: Russ Housley Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c7515e05a11b9863" Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] Network Architecture in the Internet Society X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 06:59:49 -0000 --000000000000c7515e05a11b9863 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Architecture-discuss, (From RFC library.) Network Economics --as I finded it to be part of Requests for Comments: 1) RFC 1216 "Gigabit Network Economics and Paradigm Shifts", (Pm Richard and Knykos, 1991) RFC1216: A memo defining a such paradigm --which is about " (With a concern on the history of computer communication and thus with) ... all of the attention and publicity focused on gigabit networks, ...(a notice given) ... to small and largely unfunded research efforts which are studying innovative approaches for dealing with technical issues within the constraints of economic science. " It worked at the issue of "contemporary network economics". The network economics said about "Recent cost estimates predict a continuing decline in the cost for processing, memory, and communication.... Increases in processing power create additional demand for communications bandwidth, but do nothing to pay for it. While we will sell no paradigm before its time, the 9% difference, particularly after compounding is taken into account, will bankrupt the internet community unless a paradigm shift takes place": The ULS Paradigm Shift: "... (It) ... breaks the downward spiral by concentrating on end-to-end datagrams and virtual circuit services operating in the .01 uGbps region, namely Ultra Low Speed networking. ... (The memo went further) ... The worlds best technological paradigm shifts are useless unless they (a) are economically viable, (b) have clear applicability, (c) are technically feasible." --Milton John in "Paradigms Lost"" 2) RFC 369, an older one, "Evaluation of ARPANET Services" especially section "Economics" (J. Pickens, Network Working Group, Jan-March 1972) "Network economics at levels above as well as the communications level, are a big user problem.. ". https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc369.txt Regard, Guntur Wiseno Putra Pada Senin, 09 Maret 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra menulis: > Dear architecture-discuss, > > > > This link http://www.nobel.se/index.html did not work well as it said > "Page Not Found"; > but these pages may help --there were sub-links: > > https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/economics/ and > https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/uncategorized/the-sveriges > -riksbank-prize-in-economic-sciences-in-memory-of-alfred-nobel-1969-2007 > > > > > > Note: The Internet economy refers among others to "electronic market" > which, I finded, has been facilitated by > > > "RFC 2552: "Architecture for Information Brokerage in the ACTS Project > GAIA" (Blinov, M. et all., Network Working Group-The Internet Society, > 1999): > > Today electronic market for goods and services make it reasonable to rise > such brokerage systems of trade assistance and information management > concerning the relation between customers and suppliers. > > The attempts to design the domain and supplier independent generic > architecture of such brokerage systems are worked on by project GAIA ( > Generic Architecture for Information Availability) which is a standard. > > The document refers, among others, to RFC 2068 HTTP 1.1 and RFC 1866 HTML= . > https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc2552.txt > > > > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > Pada Sabtu, 07 Maret 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra > menulis: > >> Dear architecture-discuss, >> >> There are ones, I modify what P. Nikander did ever say, happening to hav= e >> the Internet architects' minds: How should they (play and) work on (the >> Internet economy and) such important historical works on economy...? >> >> >> The 20th Century Works on Economy: "Historical" Ones --according to La >> Soci=C3=A9t=C3=A9 d'=C3=89conomie Politique they progressed the economic= knowledge of the >> century and 6 of the 10 plus one "joker" were Nobel Prize Winners...: >> >> >> >> Histoire =C3=A9conomique. >> >> [image: Image1]La Soci=C3=A9t=C3=A9 d=E2=80=99=C3=89conomie Politique pr= opose une liste de dix >> textes (plus =C2=AB un joker =C2=BB) qui ont fait progresser la connaiss= ance >> =C3=A9conomique au 20e si=C3=A8cle. >> >> 1906. Eugene B=C3=B6hm-Bawerk, =C2=AB The nature of capital =C2=BB, *Qua= terly Journal >> of Economics*. >> >> 1919. Eli Heckscher, =C2=AB The effect of foreign trade on the distribut= ion of >> income =C2=BB, *Ekonomisk Tiksrift*. >> >> 1929. John Maynard Keynes, =C2=AB The german transfer problem =C2=BB, *E= conomic >> Journal*. >> >> 1933. Ragnard Frisch, =C2=AB Propagation problems and impulse problems i= n >> dynamic economics =C2=BB, in*Economic essays in honour of Gustav Cassel*= . >> >> 1937. Ronald Coase, =C2=AB The nature of the firm =C2=BB, *Economica*. >> >> 1937. Freidrich Hayek, =C2=AB Economics and knowledge =C2=BB, *Economica= *. >> >> 1950. John Nash, =C2=AB The bargaining problem =C2=BB, *Econometrica*. >> >> 1961, John Muth, =C2=AB Rational expectations and the theory of price >> movements =C2=BB, *Econometrica*. >> >> 1969. Milton Friedman, =C2=AB The role of monetary policy =C2=BB, *Ameri= can >> Economic Review*. >> >> 1972. Robert Lucas, =C2=AB Expectations and the neutrality of money =C2= =BB, *Journal >> of Economic Theory*. >> >> Jocker: 1970. George Akerlof, =C2=AB The market for =E2=80=9CLemons=E2= =80=9D: qualitative >> uncertainty and the market mechanism =C2=BB, *Quaterly Journal of Econom= ics*. >> >> Six de ces auteurs (Frisch, Coase, Hayek, Nash, Friedman, Lucas) ont >> obtenu le prix Nobel d=E2=80=99=C3=A9conomie. La Documentation Fran=C3= =A7aise propose en >> ligne sur son site un dossier sur les prix Nobel d=E2=80=99=C3=A9conomie= depuis 1969, >> date de la cr=C3=A9ation de cette r=C3=A9compense. >> >> Le site de La Documentation Fran=C3=A7aise >> >> >> Le lien direct pour t=C3=A9l=C3=A9charger (en format pdf) les fiches de = la >> Documentation Fran=C3=A7aise sur les prix Nobel d=E2=80=99=C3=A9conomie >> >> >> Le site de la Fondation Nobel >> >> Le site de La Documentation Fran=C3=A7aise >> >> Pour faire r=C3=A9f=C3=A9rence =C3=A0 cet article (ISO 690) >> >> >> =C2=AB Histoire =C3=A9conomique. =C2=BB, *EspacesTemps.net* [En ligne], = Br=C3=A8ves, 2002 | >> Mis en ligne le 26 avril 2002, consult=C3=A9 le 26.04.2002. URL : >> https://www.espacestemps.net/articles/histoire-economique/ ; >> >> >> Regard, >> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >> Pada Selasa, 03 Maret 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra >> menulis: >> >>> Dear architecture-discuss, >>> >>> >>> >>> Cyberspace, geography, economy and architecture: >>> >>> >>> In "architecture" there are a moment to consider "principles that can b= e >>> utilized to create order in an architectural composition" (F. D. K. Chi= ng, >>> "Architecture: Form, Space and Order", John Wiley & Sons, New Jersey & >>> Canada, 2007, p. 338) among others there is "rythm" referring to "any >>> movement characterized by a patterned recurrence of elements or motifs = at >>> regular or irregular intervals" (ibid., p. 382). Nikander ever noted th= e >>> importance of noticing moments of repeatances ("Reflections on >>> Architecture"). >>> >>> # A bibliography >>> >>> *) Space Economy >>> >>> Pour faire r=C3=A9f=C3=A9rence =C3=A0 cet article (ISO 690) >>> >>> Kevin Cox, =C2=AB The State and Varieties of Space Economy. =C2=BB, >>> EspacesTemps.net [En ligne], Travaux, 2018 | Mis en ligne le 9 ao=C3=BB= t 2018, >>> consult=C3=A9 le 09.08.2018. URL : https://www.espacestemps.net >>> /articles/the-state-and-varieties-of-space-economy/ ; DOI : >>> 10.26151/xpk0-5t53 >>> >>> *) Economy of Rythm >>> >>> Pour faire r=C3=A9f=C3=A9rence =C3=A0 cet article (ISO 690) >>> >>> Yves Crozet, =C2=AB =C3=89conomie des rythmes urbains. =C2=BB, EspacesT= emps.net [En >>> ligne], Travaux, 2019 | Mis en ligne le 9 mai 2019, consult=C3=A9 le 09= .05.2019. >>> URL : https://www.espacestemps.net/articles/economie-des-rythmes >>> -urbains/ ; DOI : 10.26151/espacestemps.net-9a82-fr23 >>> >>> >>> *) Rythm analysis >>> >>> - Pour faire r=C3=A9f=C3=A9rence =C3=A0 cet article (ISO 690) >>> >>> Guillaume Drevon, Luc Gwiazdzinski, Vincent Kaufmann et Luca Pattaroni, >>> =C2=AB Rythmes de vie(s), rythmes de ville(s). =C2=BB, EspacesTemps.net= [En ligne], >>> Traverses, 2018 | Mis en ligne le 21 d=C3=A9cembre 2018, consult=C3=A9 = le 21.12.2018. >>> URL : https://www.espacestemps.net/articles/rythmes-de-vies-ryth >>> mes-de-villes/ ; DOI : 10.26151/espacestemps.net-m2z4-6535 >>> >>> - Pour faire r=C3=A9f=C3=A9rence =C3=A0 cet article (ISO 690) >>> >>> Maie G=C3=A9rardot, =C2=AB Penser en rythmes. =C2=BB, EspacesTemps.net = [En ligne], >>> Travaux, 2007 | Mis en ligne le 8 d=C3=A9cembre 2007, consult=C3=A9 le = 08.12.2007. >>> URL : https://www.espacestemps.net/articles/penser-en-rythmes/ >>> >>> # (Problems of) Methods of Readings >>> >>> It is supposedly interesting: notions tried in the bibliographies --but >>> I red it at glance so far: a guidance to arrive at the above bibligraph= ies >>> I need to make: >>> >>> (Request for) Comments is about commenting texts & Hyper Text (Transfer >>> Protocol) is also about a technology may be related with such an >>> understanding on reality as text (1): To the above bibliographies/texts >>> there should be critical readings which is about interpretations and >>> evaluations --if it is especially about planning/programming-- based on >>> contexts which are among others real conditions --social, historical an= d >>> other ones-- of readers. >>> >>> >>> NOTE: >>> >>> - Hyperreality: reality as text. I tried to elaborate it in >>> >>> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-informationarchi >>> tecture/2020Jan/0004.html >>> >>> >>> Regard, >>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> >>> >>> >>> Pada Minggu, 01 Maret 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>> menulis: >>> >>>> Dear architecture-discuss, >>>> >>>> Tim Berners-Lee said about "networks of languages" as those with what >>>> users get engaged with the Web and the Internet: it was in "Stack of >>>> Specification" as part of the "Design Issues: Architectural and >>>> Philosophical Points"(1). So, architecturally thinking on "the Interne= t >>>> economy" refers us to what were ever mentioned by these "E-Flux editor= s" >>>> >>>> The Internet and the Economy of Languages...: >>>> >>>> Julieta Aranda, Brian Kuan Wood, and Anton Vidokle >>>> Editorial=E2=80=94=E2=80=9FLanguage and Internet=E2=80=9D (2) >>>> >>>> "... >>>> >>>> As the role of the state in ensuring the value of currency has grown >>>> weaker over the past few decades, markets have increasingly assumed th= e >>>> qualities of language, of a "system of signs in which the only essenti= al >>>> thing is the union of meanings" (Saussure). The other language economy= is >>>> of course the internet, where it was thought that the immaterial quali= ties >>>> of language would evade limits in supply and demand. But now for some >>>> reason, this promise reverses. As language becomes more free, everythi= ng >>>> else becomes incredibly expensive. This has made language, and the int= ernet >>>> with it, a class battleground now more than ever, because it represent= s >>>> access to both knowledge and capital simultaneously. >>>> >>>> ...". >>>> >>>> https://www.e-flux.com/journal/45/60099/editorial-language-and-interne= t >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Note: >>>> >>>> (1) "The Internet works because of interoperability between different >>>> computers, despite different hardware, operating systems, local langua= ge >>>> context, and software supplier. Users of the web sign on to the use of >>>> these languages when they use the Internet". (TBL, "Stack of >>>> Specifications") >>>> >>>> (2) I added this source to the Open Forum Library of the Internet >>>> Society "Consolidation of the Internet: from the Socio-Economic to the >>>> Architectural" >>>> >>>> >>>> https://w3.org/DesignIssues/Stack.html >>>> >>>> >>>> Regard, >>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>> >>>> Pada Selasa, 25 Februari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>> menulis: >>>> >>>>> Dear architecture-discuss, >>>>> >>>>> Pekka Nikander, in "Reflections on Architecture" of the previous >>>>> message, mentioned little about "economy and information (security)":= by >>>>> this thread of "(Consolidation of) the Internet Economy: from the >>>>> socio-economic to the architectural", I wander would these raw materi= als of >>>>> thought works for an economy of the Internet: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> "Goods and services: Here we are. What is it there...? What does >>>>> happen there...? What could we make there...? Would our sad heart --b= ecause >>>>> of stupidities/foolishness and failures-- be entertained...? Would ou= r >>>>> passions -- for truth, justice and beauty -- be well served...? --inc= luding >>>>> of ourselves...? >>>>> >>>>> Those people either are or were great, it is said: for what they have >>>>> made available to many others, for what they have made inspiring --sa= ying >>>>> about acceptances and denials by-- many others: concepts and technics= . Part >>>>> of those things have been being through places and times, many countr= ies >>>>> and being made survived for decades, for centuries... Other part of t= hose >>>>> things have been forgotten though ever enjoyed long celebrations: and= , yes, >>>>> there were then revelations of what were silent before... They just t= ook >>>>> rest while kept maintained in such simplicities until other things ca= me to >>>>> and take them with new hopes, new happines, new plans, new games... (= It is >>>>> like a story on concepts in the making: with their histories, ...) >>>>> >>>>> ... >>>>> >>>>> Here we have more, here we lack of... There are others by whom we may >>>>> talk to and exchange with... Farewell: just take journeys... (so it i= s then >>>>> here we are in journeys or we may be there in journeys...) >>>>> >>>>> ... >>>>> >>>>> "Here we have , here we lack of": does it not represent an >>>>> understanding about "justice"...? What are about "truth" and "beauty"= ...? >>>>> >>>>> If it does refers us to a notion on "justice", or perhaps precisely >>>>> "natural justice", if it is how "justice" works, then how do we take = our >>>>> journeys..? >>>>> >>>>> Choices and risks, benefits and costs, gains and pains.... There are >>>>> rules of games: is it not illusive not to think/to think otherwise th= at >>>>> profits are just equal to costs/sacrifices, that victories are equal = to >>>>> struggles...? And, there are as well the historical as the social, as= well >>>>> succesive generations as consensus/collectivities/togetherness, we >>>>> live in: of rules of games, of "justice". >>>>> ... >>>>> >>>>> The circle, or the equation, of trust, responsibility, and facility..= . >>>>> People trust ones in such ways to take responsibilities to provide th= em >>>>> with goods or services accompanied by facilities to work on the >>>>> responsibilities...--including such physio- and psychoterapies of res= t... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ...". >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Regard, >>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>> >>>>> Pada Senin, 24 Februari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>> menulis: >>>>> >>>>>> Dear architecture-discuss, >>>>>> >>>>>> By opening files at www.ietfjournal.org I finded this out: Among >>>>>> others this is one worked on by the IETF publication on "architectur= e" >>>>>> which mentioned also about "architecture-discuss" in the time of its >>>>>> beginning --I then made it part of the entry on "Consolidation of th= e >>>>>> Internet..." at the Internet Society's Open Forum Library: >>>>>> >>>>>> NETWORKING RESEARCHReflections on >>>>>> >>>>>> ArchitectureBy: Pekka Nikander >>>>>> Da= te: >>>>>> December 2005 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> "I happen to have an architect=E2=80=99s mind. Looking at the networ= k of >>>>>> today, I strongly feel the pain of the current architecture=E2=80=99= s cracking and >>>>>> squeaking. Consequently, I believe that we =E2=80=93 the wider IETF = community >>>>>> responsible for Internet technology =E2=80=93 need to re-think the a= rchitecture. We >>>>>> need to find a way to re-create the core of the Internet in a way th= at >>>>>> leads to a new era of innovation and intellectual prosperity. The hi= ghlight >>>>>> of my IETF64 meeting in Vancouver was that I started to see signs of >>>>>> interest and activity in the broader community to pursue such a goal= . >>>>>> >>>>>> ... >>>>>> >>>>>> The IAB has recently created a new mailing list, architecture-discus= s >>>>>> [15], for wider discussion of architectural issues, which I hope wil= l >>>>>> develop into a valuable forum over time. I hope to see you there". >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.ietfjournal.org/reflections-on-architecture >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Regard, >>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>> >>>>>> Pada Jumat, 31 Januari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>> menulis: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Russ & architecture-discuss, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have just added Leva. T & H. Suommi's "Framework of Analyzing >>>>>>> Feasibility of Internet Protocols" to the before-mentioned list of = readings >>>>>>> by "Add Comment" Facility in the OPEN FORUM Community Library: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ### >>>>>>> To the list of readings above (Consolidation of the Internet: from >>>>>>> the Socio-Economic to the Architectural) may I add "Framework of An= alyzing >>>>>>> Feasibility of Internet Potocols" (Leva, T. & H. Suommi, the IAB Wo= rkshop >>>>>>> on Internet Technology Adootion and Transition 2013) which was ever= to be >>>>>>> part of architecture-discuss@ietf.org "Centralization or >>>>>>> diversity?" January 22th 2020: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/architecture-discuss/s >>>>>>> dTkLd7q7wXyfAnjJQlNceWPr8U >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ### >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Note: >>>>>>> To clarify what I said in the previous message: >>>>>>> I mean the architecture-discuss@ietf.org and the OPEN FORUM >>>>>>> Community Library may be about a networked community of reading, a >>>>>>> networked library. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regard, >>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pada Jumat, 31 Januari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>>> menulis: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear Russ and architecture-discuss, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The post in OPEN Forum Community Library is about those document >>>>>>>> saved in the architecture-discuss mailarchive I mentioned above pl= us >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Arkko, Jarri et all., "Considerations on the Internet >>>>>>>> Consolidation and the Internet Architecture", Internet-Draft, IETF= , Expired >>>>>>>> April 2019 https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr >>>>>>>> aft-arkko-iab-internet-consolidation-00 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> While, I have not included yet that of T. Leva and H. Suommi's... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I emphasized on socio-economic and architectural learnings >>>>>>>> attempted by those documents there--while the post at architecture= -discuss >>>>>>>> emphazised on feasibility of the Internet architecture in relation= with >>>>>>>> aesthetic and ethic experiences. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This is what I saved in OPEN FORUM Community Library: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "Consolidation of the Internet: From the Socio-Economic to the >>>>>>>> Architectural" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This documents refer to "Consolidation in the Internet" which is o= f >>>>>>>> economic and architectural approaches and perspectives: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> - ISOC Global Internet Report Consolidation in the Internet Econom= y >>>>>>>> https://future.internetsociety.org/2019/wp-content/uploads/s >>>>>>>> ites/2/2019/04/InternetSociety-GlobalInternetReport-Consolid >>>>>>>> ationintheInternetEconomy.pdf >>>>>>>> - Arkko, Jarri et all., "Considerations on the Internet >>>>>>>> Consolidation and the Internet Architecture", Internet-Draft, IETF= , Expired >>>>>>>> April 2019 https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr >>>>>>>> aft-arkko-iab-internet-consolidation-00 >>>>>>>> - Sullivan, Andrew, "Three Kinds of Concentration in Open >>>>>>>> Protocols", IAB-DEDR Workshop 2019 https://www.iab.org/wp-content >>>>>>>> /IAB-uploads/2019/05/p7-sulllivan-three_kinds_concentration_ >>>>>>>> ajs_dedr.pdf >>>>>>>> - Arkko, Jarri, "Centralized Architecture in Internet >>>>>>>> Architecture", Internet Draft, 2019 >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-arkko-arch-infrastructure-cent >>>>>>>> ralisation-00.txt >>>>>>>> Kutscher, Dirk, "Protocol Design and Socio-economic Realities", in >>>>>>>> the IAB-DEDR Workshop 2019 >>>>>>>> https://www.iab.org/wp-content/IAB-uploads/2019/05/p14-kutsc >>>>>>>> her-internet-design-kutscher.pdf >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Note: This post is related with another one in this "Open Forum": >>>>>>>> Restream: Internet Consolidation: What Lies beneath the Applicatio= n >>>>>>>> Layer..." (December 14th 2019) https://connect.internetsociet >>>>>>>> y.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?Gro >>>>>>>> upId=3D67&MessageKey=3D426220c6-e41e-45c8-8872-7f0cc455f492&Comm >>>>>>>> unityKey=3D3a9fa082-a518-475d-9e7f-ecec4ffe56dd&tab=3Ddigestview >>>>>>>> er&ReturnUrl=3D%2fcommunities%2fcommunity-home%2fdigestviewer% >>>>>>>> 3fCommunityKey%3d3a9fa082-a518-475d-9e7f-ecec4ffe56dd >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regard, >>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Pada Jumat, 31 Januari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>>>> menulis: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dear Russ and architecture-discuss, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I am new there, I have not know muc "how to": I think one needs t= o >>>>>>>>> create an account in the Internet Society to join with OPEN FORUM= Community >>>>>>>>> to access its features: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> But at this architecture-discuss, where we are now, one may simpl= y >>>>>>>>> access its mail archives for the documents on "Consolidation of t= he >>>>>>>>> Internet" --so it is nothing new but such a networked community o= f reading, >>>>>>>>> such a networked library: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/architecture-discuss/s >>>>>>>>> dTkLd7q7wXyfAnjJQlNceWPr8U >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I find no search engine facility for documents at OPEN FORUM >>>>>>>>> community Library while there is one at architecture-discuss mail= archive. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Regard, >>>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Pada Jumat, 31 Januari 2020, Russ Housley >>>>>>>>> menulis: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Is there a way to see the document without creating an account? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Russ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Jan 29, 2020, at 4:37 AM, Guntur Wiseno Putra < >>>>>>>>>> gsenopu@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Dear architecture-discuss, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Documents related with the current issues on "consolidation of >>>>>>>>>> the Internet" saved in the "Open Forum" community of the Interne= t Society: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> https://connect.internetsociety.org/viewdocument/consolidati >>>>>>>>>> on-of-the-internet-from?CommunityKey=3D3a9fa082-a518-475d-9e7f >>>>>>>>>> -ecec4ffe56dd&tab=3Dlibrarydocuments#ItemCommentPanel >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Regard, >>>>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> --000000000000c7515e05a11b9863 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Architecture-discuss,


(From RFC= library.)

Network Economics --as I finded it to b= e part of Requests for Comments:



1) RFC 1216 "Gigabit Network Economics and Paradigm S= hifts", (Pm Richard and Knykos, 1991)

RFC1216: A memo defining a such paradigm --which is about " (With a co= ncern on the history of computer communication and thus with) ... all of th= e attention and publicity focused on gigabit networks, ...(a notice given) = ... to small and largely unfunded research efforts which are studying innov= ative approaches for dealing with technical issues within the constraints o= f economic science. " It worked at the issue of "contemporary net= work economics".

The network economics said about "Recent cost estimates predict a cont= inuing decline in the cost for processing, memory, and communication.... Increases in processing power create additional demand for communications b= andwidth, but do nothing to pay for it. While we will sell no paradigm befo= re its time, the 9% difference, particularly after compounding is taken int= o account, will bankrupt the internet community unless a paradigm shift tak= es place":

The ULS Paradigm Shift: "... (It) ... breaks the downward spiral by co= ncentrating on end-to-end datagrams and virtual circuit services operating = in the .01 uGbps region, namely Ultra Low Speed networking. ... (The memo w= ent further) ... The worlds best technological paradigm shifts are useless = unless they (a) are economically viable, (b) have clear applicability, (c) = are technically feasible." --Milton John in "Paradigms Lost"= "




2) RF= C 369, an older one,=C2=A0"Evaluation of ARPANET Services" especi= ally section "Economics" (J. Pickens, Network Working Group, Jan-= March 1972)


"Network economics at levels above as well as the communications level= , are a big user problem..
".


htt= ps://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc369.txt


Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Senin, 0= 9 Maret 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear architecture-discuss,


=
This link http://www.nobel.se/index.html did not work well as it said "= Page Not Found";=C2=A0
but these pages may help --there were= sub-links:

https://www.no= belprize.org/prizes/uncategorized/the-sveriges-riksbank-prize-in-= economic-sciences-in-memory-of-alfred-nobel-1969-2007





Note: The Internet economy refers among others to "electronic market&= quot; which, I finded, has been facilitated by=C2=A0


"RFC 2552: "Architecture for Information= Brokerage in the ACTS Project GAIA" (Blinov, M. et all., Network Work= ing Group-The Internet Society, 1999):

Today electronic market for goods and services make it = reasonable to rise such brokerage systems of trade assistance and informati= on management concerning the relation between customers and suppliers.

The attempts to design the domain and supplier indep= endent generic architecture of such brokerage systems are worked on by proj= ect GAIA ( Generic Architecture for Information Availability) which is a st= andard.

The document refers, among others, to RF= C 2068 HTTP 1.1 and RFC 1866 HTML.


=
Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Sabtu, 07 = Maret 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear architecture-discuss,

There are ones, I m= odify what P. Nikander did ever say, happening to have the Internet archite= cts' minds: How should they (play and) work on (the Internet economy an= d) such important historical works on economy...?

=

The 20th Century Works on Economy: "Histo= rical" Ones --according to La Soci=C3=A9t=C3=A9 d'=C3=89conomie Po= litique they progressed the economic knowledge of the century and 6 of the = 10 plus one "joker" were Nobel Prize Winners...:
=



Histoire= =C3=A9conomique.

3D"Image1"La Soci=C3=A9t=C3=A9 d=E2=80= =99=C3=89conomie Politique propose une liste de dix textes (plus =C2=AB un = joker =C2=BB) qui ont fait progresser la connaissance =C3=A9conomique au 20= e=C2=A0si=C3=A8cle.

1906. Eugene B=C3=B6hm-Bawe= rk, =C2=AB The nature of capital =C2=BB,=C2=A0Quaterly Journal of Economics.

1919. Eli Heckscher, =C2=AB The ef= fect of foreign trade on the distribution of income =C2=BB,=C2=A0Ekonomisk Tiksrift.

1929. John Maynard Keynes= , =C2=AB The german transfer problem =C2=BB,=C2=A0Economic Journal.

1933. Ragnard Frisch, =C2=AB Propagation pr= oblems and impulse problems in dynamic economics =C2=BB, inEconomic essays in honour of Gustav Cassel= .

1937. Ro= nald Coase, =C2=AB The nature of the firm =C2=BB,=C2=A0Economica.

1937. Freidrich Hayek, =C2=AB Economics and k= nowledge =C2=BB,=C2=A0Econ= omica.

195= 0. John Nash, =C2=AB The bargaining problem =C2=BB,=C2=A0Econometrica.

1961, John Muth, =C2=AB Rational expect= ations and the theory of price movements =C2=BB,=C2=A0Econometrica.

1969. Milton Friedman, =C2=AB The role of m= onetary policy =C2=BB,=C2=A01972. Robert Lucas, =C2=AB Expectations and the neutralit= y of money =C2=BB,=C2=A0Jo= urnal of Economic Theory.

Jocker: 1970. George Akerlof, =C2=AB The market for =E2=80= =9CLemons=E2=80=9D: qualitative uncertainty and the market mechanism =C2=BB= ,=C2=A0Quaterly Journal of= Economics.

Le site de La Documentation Fran=C3=A7aise

Le lien direct pour t=C3=A9l=C3=A9cha= rger (en format=C2=A0pdf) les fiches de la Documentation Fran=C3=A7aise= sur les=C2=A0prix Nobel d=E2= =80=99=C3=A9conomie

Le site de la=C2=A0Fondation Nobel

Le site de La Documentation Fran=C3=A7aise

Pour faire r= =C3=A9f=C3=A9rence =C3=A0 cet article (ISO 690)

=C2=AB=C2=A0Histoire =C3=A9conomique.=C2=A0=C2=BB,=C2=A0EspacesTemps.net=C2=A0[En= ligne], Br=C3=A8ves, 2002 | Mis en ligne le 26 avril 2002, consult=C3=A9 l= e 26.04.2002. URL : https://www.espacestemps.net/article= s/histoire-economique/ ;



<= div>Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Selasa, 03 Maret 2020= , Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
=
Dear architecture-discuss,



Cyberspace, geography, economy and architecture:

=

In "architecture" there are a moment to consi= der "principles that can be utilized to create order in an architectur= al composition" (F. D. K. Ching, "Architecture: Form, Space and O= rder", John Wiley & Sons, New Jersey & Canada, 2007, p. 338) a= mong others there is "rythm" referring to "any movement char= acterized by a patterned recurrence of elements or motifs at regular or irr= egular intervals" (ibid., p. 382). Nikander ever noted the importance = of noticing moments of repeatances ("Reflections on Architecture"= ).

# A bibliography

= *) Space Economy

Pour faire r=C3=A9f=C3=A9rence = =C3=A0 cet article (ISO 690)

Kevin Cox, =C2=AB The State and Varieti= es of Space Economy. =C2=BB, EspacesTemps.net [En ligne], Travaux, 2018 | M= is en ligne le 9 ao=C3=BBt 2018, consult=C3=A9 le 09.08.2018. URL :=C2=A0https://www.espacestemps.net/articles= /the-state-and-varieties-of-space-economy/=C2=A0; DOI : 10.26151/x= pk0-5t53

*) Economy of Rythm

Pou= r faire r=C3=A9f=C3=A9rence =C3=A0 cet article (ISO 690)

Yves Crozet= , =C2=AB =C3=89conomie des rythmes urbains. =C2=BB, EspacesTemps.net [En li= gne], Travaux, 2019 | Mis en ligne le 9 mai 2019, consult=C3=A9 le 09.05.20= 19. URL :=C2=A0https://www.espacestemps.net/art= icles/economie-des-rythmes-urbains/=C2=A0; DOI : 10.26151/espacest= emps.net-9a82-fr23


*) Ryth= m analysis

- Pour faire r=C3=A9f=C3=A9rence = =C3=A0 cet article (ISO 690)

Guillaume Drevon, Luc Gwiazdzinski, V= incent Kaufmann et Luca Pattaroni, =C2=AB Rythmes de vie(s), rythmes de vil= le(s). =C2=BB, EspacesTemps.net [En ligne], Traverses, 2018 | Mis en ligne = le 21 d=C3=A9cembre 2018, consult=C3=A9 le 21.12.2018. URL :=C2=A0https://www.espacestemps.net/articles/rythmes-de-= vies-rythmes-de-villes/=C2=A0; DOI : 10.26151/espacestemps.net-m2z= 4-6535

- Pour faire r=C3=A9f=C3=A9rence =C3=A0 = cet article (ISO 690)

Maie G=C3=A9rardot, =C2=AB Penser e= n rythmes. =C2=BB, EspacesTemps.net [En ligne], Travaux, 2007 | Mis en lign= e le 8 d=C3=A9cembre 2007, consult=C3=A9 le 08.12.2007. URL :=C2=A0https://www.espacestemps.net/articles/penser-en-rythmes/=C2= =A0

# (Problems of) Methods of Readings
<= div>
It is supposedly interesting: notions tried in the bibli= ographies --but I red it at glance so far: a guidance to arrive at the abov= e bibligraphies I need to make:

(Request for) Comm= ents is about commenting texts & Hyper Text (Transfer Protocol) is also= about a technology may be related with such an understanding on reality as= text (1): To the above bibliographies/texts there should be critical readi= ngs which is about interpretations and evaluations --if it is especially ab= out planning/programming-- based on contexts which are among others real co= nditions --social, historical and other ones-- of readers.


NOTE:

- Hyperreality: real= ity as text. I tried to elaborate it in


<= /div>

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra
<= div>


Pada Minggu, 01 Maret 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra <<= a href=3D"mailto:gsenopu@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gsenopu@gmail.com= > menulis:
Dear architecture-discuss,<= div>
Tim Berners-Lee said about "networks of languages&q= uot; as those with what users get engaged with the Web and the Internet: it= was in "Stack of Specification" as part of the "Design Issu= es: Architectural and Philosophical Points"(1). So, architecturally th= inking on "the Internet economy" refers us to what were ever ment= ioned by these "E-Flux editors"

<= div style=3D"margin:1.5em 0px 0.35em;padding:0px;border:0px;font-style:inhe= rit;font-variant:inherit;font-stretch:inherit;line-height:1.2;vertical-alig= n:baseline">The Internet and the Economy of Languages...:

Julieta Ar= anda, Brian Kuan Wood, and Anton Vidokle

Editorial=E2=80=94=E2=80=9FLanguage and Internet=E2=80= =9D (2)

"...=

As the role of the state in ensuring the value of c= urrency has grown weaker over the past few decades, markets have increasing= ly assumed the qualities of language, of a "system of signs in which t= he only essential thing is the union of meanings" (Saussure). The othe= r language economy is of course the internet, where it was thought that the= immaterial qualities of language would evade limits in supply and demand. = But now for some reason, this promise reverses. As language becomes more fr= ee, everything else becomes incredibly expensive. This has made language, a= nd the internet with it, a class battleground now more than ever, because i= t represents access to both knowledge and capital simultaneously.
...".

https://www.e-flux.com/journal/45/60099/edito= rial-language-and-internet

=




=




=



Note:

(1) =C2=A0"The Interne= t works because of interoperability between different computers, despite di= fferent hardware, operating systems, local language context, and software s= upplier. Users of the web sign on to the use of these languages when they u= se the Internet". (TBL, "Stack of Specifications")

(2) I added this source to the Open Forum Library of the I= nternet Society "Consolidation of the Internet: from the Socio-Economi= c to the Architectural"

=

https://w3.org/DesignIssues/Stack.html=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0


Re= gard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Selasa, 25 Februari 2020, G= untur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dea= r architecture-discuss,

Pekka Nikander, in "Reflect= ions on Architecture" of the previous message, mentioned little about = "economy and information (security)": by this thread of "(Co= nsolidation of) the Internet Economy: from the socio-economic to the archit= ectural", I wander would these raw materials of thought works for an e= conomy of the Internet:


"Goods= and services: Here we are. What is it there...? What does happen there...?= What could we make there...? Would our sad heart --because of stupidities/= foolishness and failures-- be entertained...? Would our passions -- for tru= th, justice and beauty -- be well served...? --including of ourselves...?
Those people either are or were great, it is said: for what they have made = available to many others, for what they have made inspiring --saying about = acceptances and denials by-- many others: concepts and technics. Part of th= ose things have been being through places and times, many countries and bei= ng made survived for decades, for centuries... Other part of those things h= ave been forgotten though ever enjoyed long celebrations: and, yes, there w= ere then revelations of what were silent before... They just took rest whil= e kept maintained in such simplicities until other things came to and take = them with new hopes, new happines, new plans, new games... (It is like a st= ory on concepts in the making: with their histories, ...)

...

Here we have more, here we lack of... There are others by whom we may talk = to and exchange with...=C2=A0Farewell: just take journeys... (so it is then= here we are in journeys or we may be there in journeys...)

...

"Here we have , here we lack of": does it not represent an unders= tanding about "justice"...? What are about "truth" and = "beauty"...?

If it does refers us to a notion on "justice", or perhaps precise= ly "natural justice", if it is how "justice" works, the= n how do we take our journeys..?

Choices and risks, benefits and co= sts, gains and pains.... There are rules of games: is it not illusive not t= o think/to think otherwise that profits are just equal to costs/sacrifices,= that victories are equal to struggles...? And, there are as well the histo= rical as the social, as well succesive generations as consensus/collectivit= ies/togetherness, we live in: of rules of games, of "justice"= ;.=C2=A0
...

The circle, or the equation, of trust, responsibility, and facility... = People trust ones in such ways to take responsibilities to provide them wit= h goods or services accompanied by facilities to work on the responsibiliti= es...--including such physio- and psychoterapies of rest...=C2=A0


...".



Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Senin, 24 Februari 2020, Guntur Wi= seno Putra <gseno= pu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear archit= ecture-discuss,

By opening files at www.ietfjournal.org I finded this = out: Among others this is one worked on by the IETF publication on "ar= chitecture" which mentioned also about "architecture-discuss"= ; in the time of its beginning --I then made it part of the entry on "= Consolidation of the Internet..." at the Internet Society's Open F= orum Library:

NETWORKING RESEARCH

Reflections on

Architecture

By:=C2=A0P= ekka Nikander

Date: December 2005


<= span style=3D"color:rgb(34,31,31);font-family:Roboto;font-style:normal;lett= er-spacing:normal;line-height:32px;text-transform:none">"I happen to h= ave an architect=E2=80=99s mind. Looking at the network of today, I strongl= y feel the pain of the current architecture=E2=80=99s cracking and squeakin= g. Consequently, I believe that we =E2=80=93 the wider IETF community respo= nsible for Internet technology =E2=80=93 need to re-think the architecture.= We need to find a way to re-create the core of the Internet in a way that = leads to a new era of innovation and intellectual prosperity. The highlight= of my IETF64 meeting in Vancouver was that I started to see signs of inter= est and activity in the broader community to pursue such a goal.

...

T= he IAB has recently created a new mailing list, architecture-discuss [15], = for wider discussion of architectural issues, which I hope will develop int= o a valuable forum over time. I hope to see you there".

https://www.ietfjournal.org/reflections-on-architecture


<= div style=3D"font-size:16px;line-height:24px;padding:0px 0.75rem;float:left= ;width:311.59375px;margin-left:auto">


Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Juma= t, 31 Januari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear Russ & architecture-discuss,

=
I have just added Leva. T & H. Suommi's "Framew= ork of Analyzing Feasibility of Internet Protocols" to the before-ment= ioned list of readings by "Add Comment" Facility in the OPEN FORU= M Community Library:


###
= To the list of readings above (Consolidation of the Internet: from the Soc= io-Economic to the Architectural) may I add "Framework of Analyzing Fe= asibility of Internet Potocols" (Leva, T. & H. Suommi, the IAB Wor= kshop on Internet Technology Adootion and Transition 2013) which was ever t= o be part of architecture-discuss@ietf.org "Centralization or diversity?&q= uot; January 22th 2020:

http= s://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/architecture-discuss/sdTkLd7q7w= XyfAnjJQlNceWPr8U


##= #




Not= e:=C2=A0
To clarify what I said in the previous message:=C2=A0
I mean the architecture-discuss@ietf.org and the OPEN FORUM Community = Library may be about a networked community of reading, a networked library.=





=

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada= Jumat, 31 Januari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear Russ and architecture-discuss,

The post =C2=A0in OPEN Forum Community Library is about those document s= aved in the architecture-discuss mailarchive I mentioned above plus=C2=A0

=C2=A0Arkko, Jarri et all., &q= uot;Considerations on the Internet Consolidation and the Internet Architect= ure", Internet-Draft, IETF, Expired April 2019 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-iab-internet-consolidat= ion-00=C2=A0

While, I have not in= cluded yet that of T. Leva and H. Suommi's...

I emphasized on socio-economic and architectural learnings attempted= by those documents there--while the post at architecture-discuss emphazise= d on feasibility of the Internet architecture in relation with aesthetic an= d ethic experiences.

This is what I saved in OPEN = FORUM Community Library:

"Consolidation of th= e Internet: From the Socio-Economic to the Architectural"
This documents refer to = "Consolidation in the Internet" which is of economic and architec= tural approaches and perspectives:

- ISOC Global Internet Report Consolidation in the Internet Economy https://future.internetsociety.org/2019/wp= -content/uploads/sites/2/2019/04/InternetSociety-GlobalInternetRe= port-ConsolidationintheInternetEconomy.pdf=C2=A0
- Arkko, Jarri et all., "Considerations= on the Internet Consolidation and the Internet Architecture", Interne= t-Draft, IETF, Expired April 2019 https://tools.ie= tf.org/html/draft-arkko-iab-internet-consolidation-00=C2=A0
- Sullivan, Andrew, "Thre= e Kinds of Concentration in Open Protocols", IAB-DEDR Workshop 2019 https://www.iab.org= /wp-content/IAB-uploads/2019/05/p7-sulllivan-three_kinds_concentr= ation_ajs_dedr.pdf=C2=A0
- Arkko, Jarri, "Centralized Architecture in Internet Architectur= e", Internet Draft, 2019=C2=A0
https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-= arkko-arch-infrastructure-centralisation-00.txt
Kutscher, Dirk, "Protocol Design and Socio= -economic Realities", in the IAB-DEDR Workshop 2019
https://www.iab.org/wp-content/IAB-uploads/2019/05/p14-kutscher-= internet-design-kutscher.pdf


Note: This post is related w= ith another one in this "Open Forum": Restream: Internet Consolid= ation: What Lies beneath the Application Layer..." (December 14th 2019= ) https://connect.internetsociety.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?GroupId=3D67&MessageKey=3D426220c6-e4= 1e-45c8-8872-7f0cc455f492&CommunityKey=3D3a9fa082-a518-475d-9= e7f-ecec4ffe56dd&tab=3Ddigestviewer&ReturnUrl=3D%2fcommun= ities%2fcommunity-home%2fdigestviewer%3fCommunityKey%3d3a9fa082-a= 518-475d-9e7f-ecec4ffe56dd






Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pad= a Jumat, 31 Januari 2020, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
Dear Russ and architecture-discuss,=C2=A0

<= /div>

I am new there, I have not know muc "how to": = I think one needs to create an account in the Internet Society to join with= OPEN FORUM Community to access its features:

https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/


But at this architecture-discuss, where we are now, one may simply acce= ss its mail archives for the documents on "Consolidation of the Intern= et" --so it is nothing new but such a networked community of reading, = such a networked library:

https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/architecture-discuss/sdTkLd7q7wXyfAnjJQlNceWPr8U

I find no search engine facility for documents at OPEN FORUM community Libr= ary while there is one at architecture-discuss mail archive.
=
Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Jum= at, 31 Januari 2020, Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> menulis:
Is there a way to see the document without creating an account?
Russ


= On Jan 29, 2020, at 4:37 AM, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> wrote:

=
Dear architecture-discuss,

Documents related with t= he current issues on "consolidation of the Internet" saved in the= "Open Forum" community of the Internet Society:

--000000000000c7515e05a11b9863-- From nobody Fri Mar 20 15:38:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEE793A0F0D for ; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 15:38:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.87 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.87 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CJfxUcAV7h8y for ; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 15:38:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A875C3A0F08 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 15:38:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABFF5548045; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 23:38:01 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id A3138440040; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 23:38:01 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 23:38:01 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20200320223801.GU30574@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] Invite to webex side meeting 03/25, 8:00 AM on "New IP Architecture and Protocols". X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 22:38:11 -0000 Dear colleagues At IETF106, we had an inofficial IETF106 side meeting on New-IP Research, see https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/106sidemeetings If you are interested to continue or join the discussion, we would like to invite you to a followup, this time via webex: Meeting invite/info below. Please contact us for comments and questions: richard.li@futurewei.com, tte@cs.fau.de Thank you Toerless ------ https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/v107-side-meeting (backup at: https://bit.ly/2WvxZFn ) Meeting Title: New IP Architecture and Protocols Meeting Time: 03/25/2020, 08:00 - 09:00 AM PST [1500 - 1600 UTC] (extend to 9:30 if needed) 07:30 - 08:00 AM PST [1430 - 1500 UTC] Webex testing if you need it. Where: Webex (see below) Agenda The Internet Protocol (IP) has been used successfully in our times. But can it still support and implement emerging applications, industry verticals, and network infrastructural changes in the future? Some typical emerging applications include, but not limited to, industrial machine-to-machine communications, industrial control and manufacturing, driverless vehicles, and holographic type communications. The infrastructural changes include, for example, convergence and integration of satellite networks with terrestrial networks, ManyNets, and Industrial IoT. This is the 2nd in its series of New IP Research Side Meetings with the following as the objectives: - To share findings and observations about the Internet and its protocols regarding its fundamental weakness, incapability and vulnerability by its design. - To explore the impacts of future applications to the IP architecture and protocols - To investigate the implications of infrastructural changes for the IP architecture and protocols 1. Welcome (Richard Li) - 5 minutes 2. Forwarding Layer Problem Statement – (Stewart Bryant) – 30 minutes available at https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bryant-arch-fwd-layer-ps-00 3. An Evolution of Network Control: from Earth to Space (Dan King) – 30 minutes 4. Next steps/wrap up (Richard Li) – 5 minutes Tooling Logistics Logistics: Webex: https://futurewei.my.webex.com/futurewei.my/j.php?MTID=mfa1d34bd6f206e768351e5b010cb1649 Meeting number (access code): 627 299 859 Meeting password: 8CjPUGgaR99 ICS calender entry: https://futurewei.my.webex.com/futurewei.my/j.php?MTID=m035fce7bd56f4f654fa24a2fc2f8edaa More webex info: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/network2030/meetings/master/v107-side-meeting/webex_meeting.txt Meeting will not be recorded Please use chat channel to ask questions in text or queue yourself to ask questions in audio. Please mute yourself when not speaking. Email entered in Webex is not relevant (enter anything you want). Please read here for great IETF info how to use start/use webex: https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/107/session-participant-guide/ Etherpad URL: https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/v107-side-meeting Please enter your Name, Affiliation into the Etherpad if you want to Etherpad will also be used to take minutes below, participants welcome to help GitHub URL: https://github.com/network2030/meetings/tree/master/v107-side-meeting Meeting minutes / participant list will be published to github after meeting together with slides here Q&A/Discussion We think the meeting can be an informal side meeting without too much structure. If you have a question to the attendees, please use the webex chat. If you have questions to the presenter, please wait for times when presenter asks for questions/comments As needed, we will use the IETF "+q" on the webex channel to form a question/comment queue We suggest to direct followup discussions to architcture-discuss@ietf.org if you think it is of interest to the IETF. From nobody Fri Mar 20 15:53:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DEB83A0F24 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 15:53:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com header.b=ELE68UyU; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com header.b=Mezf/1bC Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k35APbZtSzXp for ; 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Fri, 20 Mar 2020 15:53:41 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: chesteve@gmail.com Sender: Google Calendar Message-ID: <00000000000028667f05a15128dd@google.com> Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 22:53:41 +0000 From: chesteve@gmail.com To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org, tte@cs.fau.de Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="00000000000028666c05a15128dc" Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] Invitation: Invite to webex side meeting 03/25, 8:00 AM on "... @ Wed Mar 25, 2020 09:00 - 10:00 (BRT) (architecture-discuss@ietf.org) X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 22:53:50 -0000 --00000000000028666c05a15128dc Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000028666a05a15128da" --00000000000028666a05a15128da Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 WW91IGhhdmUgYmVlbiBpbnZpdGVkIHRvIHRoZSBmb2xsb3dpbmcgZXZlbnQuDQoNClRpdGxlOiBb YXJjaC1kXSBJbnZpdGUgdG8gd2ViZXggc2lkZSBtZWV0aW5nIDAzLzI1LCA4OjAwIEFNIG9uICJO ZXcgSVAgIA0KQXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJlIGFuZCBQcm90b2NvbHMiLg0KRGVhciBjb2xsZWFndWVzDQoN CkF0IElFVEYxMDYsIHdlIGhhZCBhbiBpbm9mZmljaWFsIElFVEYxMDYgc2lkZSBtZWV0aW5nIG9u IE5ldy1JUCBSZXNlYXJjaCwNCnNlZSBodHRwczovL3RyYWMuaWV0Zi5vcmcvdHJhYy9pZXRmL21l ZXRpbmcvd2lraS8xMDZzaWRlbWVldGluZ3MNCg0KSWYgeW91IGFyZSBpbnRlcmVzdGVkIHRvIGNv bnRpbnVlIG9yIGpvaW4gdGhlIGRpc2N1c3Npb24sDQp3ZSB3b3VsZCBsaWtlIHRvIGludml0ZSB5 b3UgdG8gYSBmb2xsb3d1cCwgdGhpcyB0aW1lIHZpYSB3ZWJleDoNCg0KTWVldGluZyBpbnZpdGUv aW5mbyBiZWxvdy4NCg0KUGxlYXNlIGNvbnRhY3QgdXMgZm9yIGNvbW1lbnRzIGFuZCBxdWVzdGlv bnM6DQogICByaWNoYXJkLmxpQGZ1dHVyZXdlaS5jb20sIHR0ZUBjcy5mYXUuZGUNCg0KVGhhbmsg eW91DQogICAgIFRvZXJsZXNzDQoNCi0tLS0tLSBodHRwczovL2V0aGVycGFkLndpa2ltZWRpYS5v cmcvcC92MTA3LXNpZGUtbWVldGluZw0KICAgICAgICAoYmFja3VwIGF0OiBodHRwczovL2JpdC5s eS8yV3Z4WkZuICkNCg0KTWVldGluZw0KICAgVGl0bGU6IE5ldyBJUCBBcmNoaXRlY3R1cmUgYW5k IFByb3RvY29scyBNZWV0aW5nDQogICBUaW1lOiAgMDMvMjUvMjAyMCwgMDg6MDAgLSAwOTowMCBB TSBQU1QgWzE1MDAgLSAxNjAwIFVUQ10gKGV4dGVuZCB0byA5OjMwICANCmlmIG5lZWRlZCkNCiAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAwNzozMCAtIDA4OjAwIEFNIFBTVCBbMTQzMCAtIDE1MDAgVVRD Li4uDQpXaGVuOiBXZWQgTWFyIDI1LCAyMDIwIDA5OjAwIOKAkyAxMDowMCBCcmFzaWxpYSBTdGFu ZGFyZCBUaW1lIC0gU2FvIFBhdWxvDQpDYWxlbmRhcjogYXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJlLWRpc2N1c3NAaWV0 Zi5vcmcNCldobzoNCiAgICAgKiBjaGVzdGV2ZUBnbWFpbC5jb20gLSBvcmdhbml6ZXINCiAgICAg KiBhcmNoaXRlY3R1cmUtZGlzY3Vzc0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KICAgICAqIHR0ZUBjcy5mYXUuZGUNCg0K RXZlbnQgZGV0YWlsczogIA0KaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS9jYWxlbmRhci9ldmVudD9h Y3Rpb249VklFVyZlaWQ9TW1VNGFEWXdhR2RzZGpkMWFHRmthekZ4WlRCeVlqRTVhV29nWVhKamFH bDBaV04wZFhKbExXUnBjMk4xYzNOQWFXVjBaaTV2Y21jJnRvaz1NVGdqWTJobGMzUmxkbVZBWjIx aGFXd3VZMjl0T0Rrd016a3lZelZrWWpGaU1HVmxZV0ZpT0RKaU1tUmlNamhqTnpGaU16STFPVE13 TkRoaU5BJmN0ej1BbWVyaWNhJTJGU2FvX1BhdWxvJmhsPWVuJmVzPTANCg0KSW52aXRhdGlvbiBm cm9tIEdvb2dsZSBDYWxlbmRhcjogaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS9jYWxlbmRhci8NCg0K WW91IGFyZSByZWNlaXZpbmcgdGhpcyBjb3VydGVzeSBlbWFpbCBhdCB0aGUgYWNjb3VudCAgDQph cmNoaXRlY3R1cmUtZGlzY3Vzc0BpZXRmLm9yZyBiZWNhdXNlIHlvdSBhcmUgYW4gYXR0ZW5kZWUg b2YgdGhpcyBldmVudC4NCg0KVG8gc3RvcCByZWNlaXZpbmcgZnV0dXJlIHVwZGF0ZXMgZm9yIHRo aXMgZXZlbnQsIGRlY2xpbmUgdGhpcyBldmVudC4gIA0KQWx0ZXJuYXRpdmVseSB5b3UgY2FuIHNp Z24gdXAgZm9yIGEgR29vZ2xlIGFjY291bnQgYXQgIA0KaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS9j YWxlbmRhci8gYW5kIGNvbnRyb2wgeW91ciBub3RpZmljYXRpb24gc2V0dGluZ3MgZm9yICANCnlv dXIgZW50aXJlIGNhbGVuZGFyLg0KDQpGb3J3YXJkaW5nIHRoaXMgaW52aXRhdGlvbiBjb3VsZCBh bGxvdyBhbnkgcmVjaXBpZW50IHRvIHNlbmQgYSByZXNwb25zZSB0byAgDQp0aGUgb3JnYW5pemVy IGFuZCBiZSBhZGRlZCB0byB0aGUgZ3Vlc3QgbGlzdCwgb3IgaW52aXRlIG90aGVycyByZWdhcmRs ZXNzICANCm9mIHRoZWlyIG93biBpbnZpdGF0aW9uIHN0YXR1cywgb3IgdG8gbW9kaWZ5IHlvdXIg UlNWUC4gTGVhcm4gbW9yZSBhdCAgDQpodHRwczovL3N1cHBvcnQuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS9jYWxlbmRh ci9hbnN3ZXIvMzcxMzUjZm9yd2FyZGluZw0K --00000000000028666a05a15128da Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<= tr>

You have been invited to the follow= ing event.

[arch-d] Invite to webex side meeti= ng 03/25, 8:00 AM on "New IP Architecture and Protocols".<= /h3>
architecture-dis= cuss@ietf.org
When=
Wed Mar 25, 2020 09:00 = =E2=80=93 10:00 Brasilia Standard Time - Sao Pau= lo
Calendar
Who
•
•
chesteve@gmail.com - organize= r
&#x= 2022;
architecture-discuss@ietf.org
tte@cs.fau.de
=

Dear colleaguesAt IETF106, we had an inofficial IETF106 side meeting on New-IP Research,<= br>see https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/106sidemeetings

I= f you are interested to continue or join the discussion,
we would like t= o invite you to a followup, this time via webex:

Meeting invite/info = below.

Please contact us for comments and questions:
richard.li@futurewei.com= , tte@cs.fau.de<= /p>

Thank you
Toerless

------ https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/v107-side-meeting=
(backup at: https://bit.ly/2WvxZFn<= /a> )

Meeting
Title: New IP Architecture and Protocols Meeting Time: 03/25/2020, 08:00 - 09:00 AM PST [1500 - 1600 UTC] (extend to 9:= 30 if needed)
07:30 - 08:00 AM PST [1430 - 1500 UTC= ...

Going (architecture-discuss@ietf.org)?   Yes - Maybe - = No    more options »

=

Invitation fr= om Google Calendar

You are receiving this courtesy email at the ac= count architecture-discuss@ietf.org because you are an attendee of this eve= nt.

To stop receiving future updates for this event, decline this eve= nt. Alternatively you can sign up for a Google account at https://www.googl= e.com/calendar/ and control your notification settings for your entire cale= ndar.

Forwarding this invitation could allow any recipient to send a = response to the organizer and be added to the guest list, or invite others = regardless of their own invitation status, or to modify your RSVP. Learn More= .

 --00000000000028666a05a15128da Content-Type: text/calendar; charset="UTF-8"; method=REQUEST Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BEGIN:VCALENDAR PRODID:-//Google Inc//Google Calendar 70.9054//EN VERSION:2.0 CALSCALE:GREGORIAN METHOD:REQUEST BEGIN:VEVENT DTSTART:20200325T120000Z DTEND:20200325T130000Z DTSTAMP:20200320T225341Z ORGANIZER;CN=chesteve@gmail.com:mailto:chesteve@gmail.com UID:2e8h60hglv7uhadk1qe0rb19ij@google.com ATTENDEE;CUTYPE=INDIVIDUAL;ROLE=REQ-PARTICIPANT;PARTSTAT=NEEDS-ACTION;RSVP= TRUE;CN=architecture-discuss@ietf.org;X-NUM-GUESTS=0:mailto:architecture-di scuss@ietf.org ATTENDEE;CUTYPE=INDIVIDUAL;ROLE=REQ-PARTICIPANT;PARTSTAT=ACCEPTED;RSVP=TRUE ;CN=chesteve@gmail.com;X-NUM-GUESTS=0:mailto:chesteve@gmail.com ATTENDEE;CUTYPE=INDIVIDUAL;ROLE=REQ-PARTICIPANT;PARTSTAT=NEEDS-ACTION;RSVP= TRUE;CN=tte@cs.fau.de;X-NUM-GUESTS=0:mailto:tte@cs.fau.de X-MICROSOFT-CDO-OWNERAPPTID:745136617 CREATED:20200320T225341Z DESCRIPTION:Dear colleagues\n\nAt IETF106\, we had an inofficial IETF106 si de meeting on New-IP Research\,\nsee https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meetin g/wiki/106sidemeetings\n\nIf you are interested to continue or join the dis cussion\,\nwe would like to invite you to a followup\, this time via webex: \n\nMeeting invite/info below.\n\nPlease contact us for comments and questi ons:\n richard.li@futurewei.com\, tte@cs.fau.de\n\nThank you\n Toerless \n\n------ https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/v107-side-meeting\n (back up at: https://bit.ly/2WvxZFn )\n\nMeeting\n Title: New IP Architecture an d Protocols Meeting\n Time: 03/25/2020\, 08:00 - 09:00 AM PST [1500 - 160 0 UTC] (extend to 9:30 if needed)\n 07:30 - 08:00 AM PS T [1430 - 1500 UTC...\n\n-::~:~::~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~: ~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~::~:~::-\nPlease do not edit this section of t he description.\n\nView your event at https://www.google.com/calendar/event ?action=VIEW&eid=MmU4aDYwaGdsdjd1aGFkazFxZTByYjE5aWogYXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJlLWRpc2 N1c3NAaWV0Zi5vcmc&tok=MTgjY2hlc3RldmVAZ21haWwuY29tODkwMzkyYzVkYjFiMGVlYWFiO DJiMmRiMjhjNzFiMzI1OTMwNDhiNA&ctz=America%2FSao_Paulo&hl=en&es=1.\n-::~:~:: ~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~::~: ~::- LAST-MODIFIED:20200320T225341Z LOCATION: SEQUENCE:0 STATUS:CONFIRMED SUMMARY:[arch-d] Invite to webex side meeting 03/25\, 8:00 AM on "New IP Ar chitecture and Protocols". 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Fri, 20 Mar 2020 23:03:45 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9JgLkdOj3hKY; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 23:03:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 65621BE20; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 23:03:43 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1584745423; bh=JcPg5fXWFHVvh3oiID7UllV7UjyAIht+Y9v9dErneKA=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=JsaYfHNVZmPqRJvERAwRKXPmHUAlarG6Xqpi6A0StxRnSLAWkW+3GYJrc3E1fALd7 u+uNWJp4BSJVQlAgAlA63ag/b7rvnhKMlnjfLyYhFYCfyRrsxf6eOsjE0AJb6M2LpB q2QXJq6AN2AGDsWy/4Lc+xsht+EOn83GL28IVUK8= To: Toerless Eckert , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" References: <20200320223801.GU30574@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; 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Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200320223801.GU30574@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="uhAhvK0qD2tcRabbKkyeoufUN4SJGCpUn" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Invite to webex side meeting 03/25, 8:00 AM on "New IP Architecture and Protocols". X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 23:03:50 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --uhAhvK0qD2tcRabbKkyeoufUN4SJGCpUn Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="UZXRsXWN3JrvGKJsA8QTalUjt82uC2awT"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Toerless Eckert , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Message-ID: <8e49e49b-3e56-ea18-7faf-75623f14f548@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [arch-d] Invite to webex side meeting 03/25, 8:00 AM on "New IP Architecture and Protocols". References: <20200320223801.GU30574@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> In-Reply-To: <20200320223801.GU30574@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> --UZXRsXWN3JrvGKJsA8QTalUjt82uC2awT Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------EEA74AD15A2E80ACB2C1652A" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------EEA74AD15A2E80ACB2C1652A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hmm, On 20/03/2020 22:38, Toerless Eckert wrote: > We suggest to direct followup discussions to > architcture-discuss@ietf.org if you think it is of interest to the > IETF. AFAIK this is basically an initiative driven by one or a small set of vendors. It is not an IAB activity and this list is. ISTM somewhat cheeky to cast this as if it were sort-of "official" by sending ICS invites to this list and suggesting this list be used for follow ups. I'm saying that as an individual and have not asked other IAB folks what they think, but again speaking personally, I'd be much happier if people and organisations had a bit more style. 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ANhLgQ2rXnHD0MHwrmCPCQgMc9AFgzEK8Tq+EoI+4AN1oNlD8cij8mV1 U8uRsFv+PYNV8TNUhGJhiuEUZNNNCw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vtbnTWU7xHoOtdoOX0JmubDi05DIxTjup9h3hzl6KLxY24d53bWiEZLJtknnkmwuX9YDikG9A== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:f16:: with SMTP id br22mr11664410pjb.170.1584745752456; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 16:09:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aspen.local ([63.140.71.170]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q26sm6521078pff.63.2020.03.20.16.09.11 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 20 Mar 2020 16:09:11 -0700 (PDT) To: Stephen Farrell , Toerless Eckert , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" References: <20200320223801.GU30574@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <8e49e49b-3e56-ea18-7faf-75623f14f548@cs.tcd.ie> From: Melinda Shore Autocrypt: addr=melinda.shore@nomountain.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFppZ0gBEADFwxAi5szDOsM/6+CH4pbYTX7D+2gjLY4xEE7ydQcAF1WVLvcWXrpZM0GO /eA4N1PJ+OT5o8o9zVr7izMJkiLwcnQmxHdlYgZ9E+Cm8hDtMyEPBQwsYTkE5kpbGCmBAZ+W 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LY6eTvC6ZT/fA5iS/PAUj0WbrWNrHQtQ5OY2+al2v6JdLu/w6IZJCBpTosOAOzzmre+31fk1 HKwqd9xRxC8= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 15:09:09 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8e49e49b-3e56-ea18-7faf-75623f14f548@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="pCiaf38vGDncibh7t4z7SNXELQdAPWjik" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Invite to webex side meeting 03/25, 8:00 AM on "New IP Architecture and Protocols". X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 23:09:32 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --pCiaf38vGDncibh7t4z7SNXELQdAPWjik Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Ju8NBd4MC1ZP3nYJifkQKCVFfI3ddaz8P" --Ju8NBd4MC1ZP3nYJifkQKCVFfI3ddaz8P Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/20/20 3:03 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > AFAIK this is basically an initiative driven by one or > a small set of vendors. It is not an IAB activity and > this list is. ISTM somewhat cheeky to cast this as if > it were sort-of "official" by sending ICS invites to > this list and suggesting this list be used for follow > ups. I'm saying that as an individual and have not > asked other IAB folks what they think, but again > speaking personally, I'd be much happier if people > and organisations had a bit more style. That was close to my reaction, as well. Melinda --=20 Melinda Shore melinda.shore@nomountain.net Software longa, hardware brevis --Ju8NBd4MC1ZP3nYJifkQKCVFfI3ddaz8P-- --pCiaf38vGDncibh7t4z7SNXELQdAPWjik Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEET2gtkyoXlvgg8jTA37iRcpp2248FAl51TRUACgkQ37iRcpp2 248c8RAAhJ6px0nbviKb3ybRssGiIGjj/nfckpKTderbgPtWvG12IN9xC5oqnXLp MbDsjhbixI+Kj0Bdiy30qX+rlFIw58jVmlqNez1WxO24CNtGnHtMaGL89DpIz9p6 xs/M00LcQF82IvrIBOosNXAfnxmGK8pmi0zPZJSE9l7jeqQ3dvUckJMFgLAlKKmv 73MQhhTBrQkS1jJKsnYRfKZvERKWVwFyVapptlQH7Ao9K0otdJP5MYNfV6Oslh7k PPRqR+vGb57KJtmnoHqIoF2UFkBHHU4Sm5Ca2Gkc84PAFjLjmSx1V/CX/ihW8ysW thFgEvHxR9/rqT8yJsD35K6iEvtg7yoZZDzS7cz0hNYEq+ZOpZG7EKeum3RM5DwV JBWfXHDRgTKe8VTfVud2uMPRhEvdeO4diZdDjqSbvNMjRlMq4t3r5ERuLqU67M26 DOeFmr1xXd8Ehh4ht7KQpKSuoq4ObRVaQMqyJnJPMDzGZDFop4OyR3JTOos3e4kx CTVwt+GteaPGUv0V7g9ky+dfoWzTnaDwpe2Z/vBI7IExfGUJHD9NuDuPS51iXLBI hEDC7FN3mnlb0AG3c4VABtif2q/zHJ+xQxV/AFACZ1/fZxbXDnlJK4HmWyApQYox yUwySApGzJr8H+YC1aXNasXZ8dcGq3+xlYUt0jyHQYQQBVvlmi0= =+oSt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --pCiaf38vGDncibh7t4z7SNXELQdAPWjik-- From nobody Fri Mar 20 16:16:14 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E8933A0F48 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 16:15:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QBNTxUqBwzZC for ; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 16:15:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x102b.google.com (mail-pj1-x102b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 936163A0F8B for ; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 16:15:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x102b.google.com with SMTP id np9so3156008pjb.4 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 16:15:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=JmaYFS3mm2CD+p6z7LlnHw3klcYagMn66EWTkkKE8oE=; b=pml1uwMcUfAxJPMzBYSf247FY/+0oiUYwrEyAnf2c1QtB4vqY0LMz2ZIjwpvGyW4I8 t1CG6jfMaxcu60L1Z8D2MErcdgtE6a5lJ455Q3XITxRGubB9tPUQPUQjxVjOFE6YgImq AqfspgaDrAxmi8fPy4Z4gQyHFSgxAICxKvozQ0KlurgyGXpMEu709HvdAj+XDconeFLO y/ApoCP6Srcz5EspLIAKD+fOYTiUEyQVOWv/QxYlF+Xy3Dzf4p9P+EIMOVqIa75xKAne S9gKYSUvB6BucDMWXOLCpiN3EJuH+OyZ+uM7D1QOQ8bo+45AHH+SLTa0Nsf0nJAF+vN1 eXsg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=JmaYFS3mm2CD+p6z7LlnHw3klcYagMn66EWTkkKE8oE=; b=N3OOo8Wy4e25tmerIWbkKY1xac4G8XxuXt0OvqeJku3NMJtb+dJ++ye6uyv3K0/R5P C0tnfl1lyjv/5q2yAWXaS871JklqEqjK7hqlihJiltWJMWpJPd6L4m0hMwGkZnJthGSP FFSgXXRY0R4NTUL7GKeAiS6/pAlQQDFWZYmGB4CIWdPbAxcJ7e85J6M76UMm19TzQSvN 89+Mk7ZCMPLscT19ZtJDiKHh3jlnV3QBUZ/XD9u8bdJMjka0/Vuo83pVNbeJgjoKNq4B YCWTRBaBFqLRUocFXyPv9O5Xj0sEVPXbyH7Tlmc38YAHRphplbPgfojssCSDhpYodscY 5pVQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ2zQcwWZKIO5gAuMIeT2U0PoIueHWRmZzTJQVfRQIGyGivjFOFD lQRBBoIcD1WX2s6D71PIXrDICJE7 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vsLJ0gLS+CaeMCly41FfoJK7wicx8DKPwolI80pyIlFTfeGdz1jiUxDVQbInKupDuHEScyygA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:6a8a:: with SMTP id n10mr10855208plk.124.1584746144571; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 16:15:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.95.85.13] ([162.210.129.5]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id nh4sm5596048pjb.39.2020.03.20.16.15.42 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 20 Mar 2020 16:15:43 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Tony Li In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 16:15:40 -0700 Cc: Stephen Farrell , Toerless Eckert , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <68A1B782-A4E4-49B5-AA5E-2E69F8D5A27F@gmail.com> References: <20200320223801.GU30574@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <8e49e49b-3e56-ea18-7faf-75623f14f548@cs.tcd.ie> To: Melinda Shore X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Invite to webex side meeting 03/25, 8:00 AM on "New IP Architecture and Protocols". X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 23:16:13 -0000 And I hate to see the IAB stomp on discussions. T > On Mar 20, 2020, at 4:09 PM, Melinda Shore = wrote: >=20 > On 3/20/20 3:03 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >> AFAIK this is basically an initiative driven by one or >> a small set of vendors. It is not an IAB activity and >> this list is. ISTM somewhat cheeky to cast this as if >> it were sort-of "official" by sending ICS invites to >> this list and suggesting this list be used for follow >> ups. I'm saying that as an individual and have not >> asked other IAB folks what they think, but again >> speaking personally, I'd be much happier if people >> and organisations had a bit more style. >=20 > That was close to my reaction, as well. >=20 > Melinda >=20 > --=20 > Melinda Shore > melinda.shore@nomountain.net >=20 > Software longa, hardware brevis >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss From nobody Fri Mar 20 16:20:40 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE90D3A0F74 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 16:20:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J369uoFrGxwc for ; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 16:20:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 18A6A3A0F54 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 16:20:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4113BE2C; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 23:20:10 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hebz08GR6Ifp; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 23:20:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 966C0BE20; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 23:20:08 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1584746408; bh=18nbfQsHVoQ85xrQqempgyoONLYZSkvCQqg9uz56/BI=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=yzj2CH4Ok/w+x7Ie4A69KfCz+2DEgd5mdJhM97XC/ibL0F6t2sLlmjlVwsovocSjD tjoPuZdMA5+PqfQ8p+Y10XfJeGX9H0VjfmeG1FinYGhsUBwNWOyI4foI2CNFIJxJLq Mzqzw3tvvGuhk1zg657xkFCvyx1fHmizbljo6+98= To: Tony Li , Melinda Shore Cc: Toerless Eckert , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" References: <20200320223801.GU30574@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <8e49e49b-3e56-ea18-7faf-75623f14f548@cs.tcd.ie> <68A1B782-A4E4-49B5-AA5E-2E69F8D5A27F@gmail.com> From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABtDJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPokCQAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxLkCDQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 23:20:08 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <68A1B782-A4E4-49B5-AA5E-2E69F8D5A27F@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="YCjnx7PtWUvU69QwRelBqxowYO0ISBpw3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Invite to webex side meeting 03/25, 8:00 AM on "New IP Architecture and Protocols". X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 23:20:38 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --YCjnx7PtWUvU69QwRelBqxowYO0ISBpw3 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="nZpZrlxYOAENegPzjDaT34bLkqrRdod28"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Tony Li , Melinda Shore Cc: Toerless Eckert , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Message-ID: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Invite to webex side meeting 03/25, 8:00 AM on "New IP Architecture and Protocols". References: <20200320223801.GU30574@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <8e49e49b-3e56-ea18-7faf-75623f14f548@cs.tcd.ie> <68A1B782-A4E4-49B5-AA5E-2E69F8D5A27F@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <68A1B782-A4E4-49B5-AA5E-2E69F8D5A27F@gmail.com> --nZpZrlxYOAENegPzjDaT34bLkqrRdod28 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------FF1AEB8D61A64BEF31A2D2D2" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------FF1AEB8D61A64BEF31A2D2D2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 20/03/2020 23:15, Tony Li wrote: >=20 > And I hate to see the IAB stomp on discussions. What discussion? What stomp? I gave the list my (not the IAB's) reaction to those semi-official looking emails. Starting a real discussion first would be better from my POV than what appears to be a corporate push. (I don't blame you or any company for that, but I really do lament the lack of style as I already said.) S. >=20 > T >=20 >=20 >> On Mar 20, 2020, at 4:09 PM, Melinda Shore wrote: >> >> On 3/20/20 3:03 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >>> AFAIK this is basically an initiative driven by one or >>> a small set of vendors. It is not an IAB activity and >>> this list is. ISTM somewhat cheeky to cast this as if >>> it were sort-of "official" by sending ICS invites to >>> this list and suggesting this list be used for follow >>> ups. I'm saying that as an individual and have not >>> asked other IAB folks what they think, but again >>> speaking personally, I'd be much happier if people >>> and organisations had a bit more style. >> >> That was close to my reaction, as well. >> >> Melinda >> >> --=20 >> Melinda Shore >> melinda.shore@nomountain.net >> >> Software longa, hardware brevis >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Architecture-discuss mailing list >> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss >=20 --------------FF1AEB8D61A64BEF31A2D2D2 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE 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filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAl51T6gACgkQWrL68XsX K+rEUxAAsUir8COilh2KYiMfhaWrdjMvsq4qFz1rCG14lNQlGtBdR6v9Tp+uDkuf kNrfP3rUuCZk0bp38VB/wT2h+OFiyDAfEuB9t+3k4Scn0ereidLVvXe54717KECh nN3l2J/kzG8yaQ5aXnrxJ5sD0zTBgcRqDb397TH2ESVhLGUyhvhbUMQN6sT/twKT GxZOeaj0XMeUU2gCzjiPgGHzoPyFDkKKF8UD6/8+fyMBceLq6uMgnIKvGi7tlw6s 8BjvFaadolsQ9jvvFKwC60bej+r4IaeK5J3N3wYzi6KxmX8BouCMQyNrIgUnMJgs +zWFMS+uGMCg8rmgSf0vBLTpc/Q5TSMjZwWyr068w3Fpwt+eEtgV37D2zgft5rrv H3sjZ7MkB3aEyUkjuw2lna/mQMytJIMcP1KhTpSAiEpE7HHjzY3fNSmR6APyFp3t 8Hvu3nJH9e0LiBbWvXWOMJoWgKqDODcJfy9ZQ+ktrDa1wxKNf4rqUTHSCBANKdhw mFpJkd+/25bgiicjlLKJyorBMI1inpdB6WpU294d47VvJhMgv6A8vOnOi4BiafsG UECbqLeASrAKMC7kADxAkFKaZgLZ6GyQ99c7M6QLx0Zs0pWtod5xAx66jDC3XuJm mQ/YxUGUqO9Mv771EyRw67xE4ORQRAEZYrr+S/0S/EcXErGAAVU= =dDic -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --YCjnx7PtWUvU69QwRelBqxowYO0ISBpw3-- From nobody Fri Mar 20 16:32:15 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F6313A0F57 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 16:32:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.647 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.647 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tlf_5zwKPqdP for ; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 16:32:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-f52.google.com (mail-lf1-f52.google.com [209.85.167.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1D7303A0F51 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 16:32:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-f52.google.com with SMTP id j188so2028403lfj.11 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 16:32:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=xdBSbAyZt2XA+i1P4/iHDGVi6fdAzIM8P8Zkihvr/oI=; b=h2V+f/loTF+BsMnkxcPXVBXHNtvFYkmKLEUAQR964eoWNlQ9V5gc8IoFT9iH0hwiuG 6BOsKiVNIZ7UnhbOFZPIZFf9Alme+yd9bzswCaVz12wchzuwTD91n6fI1EHvrSkndhMO NK8nUoLQfg0MoWYvmsS8wHh3ZLP+okn5oJkkBkROaj8mPrTZKHZ59pjfXdqQiq61UU8X ngmRUbTmyGZsvXE65ZhLJzJ+WpM21GzmSYyMtvcx49moBrYdhOK0Rr3g/d2Fu68TI0Zw 1d4wPQp/qS5z+q0qmg4E2hNG0p/X2pfGigfWWHMu3qjT0qX0GydxxNr/G33iqPtguDT+ +ffg== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ2Bsy0eQpHxGGFn4jUIvt/F7FwtAbb50VwKw8vMhTUUYLkj2XX4 FEyhzGYCZdUuCn62bUuouiF2ot1+GKsUUF9E4ox7YZ6g X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vsLzmLTN/afqvLGcQ8r64NClzdZgDPI3o/+pxpI6cllgW8P+Na/7ud04bUxVVDhnHp2c3A/nDLlHQL0f+4G8w8= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:407:: with SMTP id u7mr6744390lfk.36.1584747129124; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 16:32:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200320223801.GU30574@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <8e49e49b-3e56-ea18-7faf-75623f14f548@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <8e49e49b-3e56-ea18-7faf-75623f14f548@cs.tcd.ie> From: Christian Esteve Rothenberg Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 20:31:57 -0300 Message-ID: To: Stephen Farrell Cc: Toerless Eckert , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b0bba505a151b18f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Invite to webex side meeting 03/25, 8:00 AM on "New IP Architecture and Protocols". X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 23:32:14 -0000 --000000000000b0bba505a151b18f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" My apologies for any ICS invites sent from my G calendar after "smartly" adding all of you as guests while adding the calendar entry. My bad of course not having paid attention to this "detail". Worse, it is the second time I do this on a large mailing list. Warm regards, keep calm and healthy -ch On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 8:04 PM Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Hmm, > > On 20/03/2020 22:38, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > We suggest to direct followup discussions to > > architcture-discuss@ietf.org if you think it is of interest to the > > IETF. > AFAIK this is basically an initiative driven by one or > a small set of vendors. It is not an IAB activity and > this list is. ISTM somewhat cheeky to cast this as if > it were sort-of "official" by sending ICS invites to > this list and suggesting this list be used for follow > ups. I'm saying that as an individual and have not > asked other IAB folks what they think, but again > speaking personally, I'd be much happier if people > and organisations had a bit more style. > > S. > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > --000000000000b0bba505a151b18f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My apologies for any ICS invites sent from my G calendar a= fter "smartly" adding all of you as guests while adding the calen= dar entry. My bad of course not having paid attention to this "detail&= quot;. Worse, it is the second time I do this on a large mailing=C2=A0list.=

Warm regards, keep calm and healthy
-ch
=

= On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 8:04 PM Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:

Hmm,

On 20/03/2020 22:38, Toerless Eckert wrote:
> We suggest to direct followup discussions to
> arch= itcture-discuss@ietf.org if you think it is of interest to the
> IETF.
AFAIK this is basically an initiative driven by one or
a small set of vendors. It is not an IAB activity and
this list is. ISTM somewhat cheeky to cast this as if
it were sort-of "official" by sending ICS invites to
this list and suggesting this list be used for follow
ups. I'm saying that as an individual and have not
asked other IAB folks what they think, but again
speaking personally, I'd be much happier if people
and organisations had a bit more style.

S.
_______________________________________________
Architecture-discuss mailing list
Architec= ture-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/arc= hitecture-discuss
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Fri, 20 Mar 2020 17:36:51 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com Sender: Google Calendar Message-ID: <000000000000175ea605a15299ef@google.com> Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 00:36:51 +0000 From: brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org, chesteve@gmail.com, tte@cs.fau.de Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="000000000000175e8c05a15299ee" Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] Invitation: Invite to webex side meeting 03/25, 8:00 AM on "... @ Thu 26 Mar 2020 01:00 - 02:00 (NZDT) (architecture-discuss@ietf.org) X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 00:36:55 -0000 --000000000000175e8c05a15299ee Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000175e8a05a15299ec" --000000000000175e8a05a15299ec Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; 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--000000000000175e8a05a15299ec Content-Type: text/calendar; charset="UTF-8"; method=REQUEST Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BEGIN:VCALENDAR PRODID:-//Google Inc//Google Calendar 70.9054//EN VERSION:2.0 CALSCALE:GREGORIAN METHOD:REQUEST BEGIN:VEVENT DTSTART:20200325T120000Z DTEND:20200325T130000Z DTSTAMP:20200321T003651Z ORGANIZER;CN=brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com:mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com UID:mvb7ls8afnd2t17h0stb9721tk@google.com ATTENDEE;CUTYPE=INDIVIDUAL;ROLE=REQ-PARTICIPANT;PARTSTAT=NEEDS-ACTION;RSVP= TRUE;CN=architecture-discuss@ietf.org;X-NUM-GUESTS=0:mailto:architecture-di scuss@ietf.org ATTENDEE;CUTYPE=INDIVIDUAL;ROLE=REQ-PARTICIPANT;PARTSTAT=ACCEPTED;RSVP=TRUE ;CN=chesteve@gmail.com;X-NUM-GUESTS=0:mailto:chesteve@gmail.com ATTENDEE;CUTYPE=INDIVIDUAL;ROLE=REQ-PARTICIPANT;PARTSTAT=NEEDS-ACTION;RSVP= TRUE;CN=tte@cs.fau.de;X-NUM-GUESTS=0:mailto:tte@cs.fau.de X-MICROSOFT-CDO-OWNERAPPTID:-1770666689 CREATED:20200321T003650Z DESCRIPTION:Dear colleagues\n\nAt IETF106\, we had an inofficial IETF106 si de meeting on New-IP Research\,\nsee https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meetin g/wiki/106sidemeetings\n\nIf you are interested to continue or join the dis cussion\,\nwe would like to invite you to a followup\, this time via webex: \n\nMeeting invite/info below.\n\nPlease contact us for comments and questi ons:\n richard.li@futurewei.com\, tte@cs.fau.de\n\nThank you\n Toerless \n\n------ https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/v107-side-meeting\n (back up at: https://bit.ly/2WvxZFn )\n\nMeeting\n Title: New IP Architecture an d Protocols Meeting\n Time: 03/25/2020\, 08:00 - 09:00 AM PST [1500 - 160 0 UTC] (extend to 9:30 if needed)\n 07:30 - 08:00 AM PS T [1430 - 1500 UTC...\n\n-::~:~::~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~: ~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~::~:~::-\nPlease do not edit this section of t he description.\n\nView your event at https://www.google.com/calendar/event ?action=VIEW&eid=bXZiN2xzOGFmbmQydDE3aDBzdGI5NzIxdGsgYXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJlLWRpc2 N1c3NAaWV0Zi5vcmc&tok=MjcjYnJpYW4uZS5jYXJwZW50ZXJAZ21haWwuY29tMDVhNzZlMDNlY 2IxZTQzNjI4ZjkxYzRhY2I0MjMyZTkyNjhhNjA3Mg&ctz=Pacific%2FAuckland&hl=en_GB&e s=1.\n-::~:~::~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~:~ :~:~:~:~:~::~:~::- LAST-MODIFIED:20200321T003650Z LOCATION: SEQUENCE:0 STATUS:CONFIRMED SUMMARY:[arch-d] Invite to webex side meeting 03/25\, 8:00 AM on "New IP Ar chitecture and Protocols". TRANSP:OPAQUE END:VEVENT END:VCALENDAR --000000000000175e8a05a15299ec-- --000000000000175e8c05a15299ee Content-Type: application/ics; name="invite.ics" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="invite.ics" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 QkVHSU46VkNBTEVOREFSDQpQUk9ESUQ6LS8vR29vZ2xlIEluYy8vR29vZ2xlIENhbGVuZGFyIDcw LjkwNTQvL0VODQpWRVJTSU9OOjIuMA0KQ0FMU0NBTEU6R1JFR09SSUFODQpNRVRIT0Q6UkVRVUVT VA0KQkVHSU46VkVWRU5UDQpEVFNUQVJUOjIwMjAwMzI1VDEyMDAwMFoNCkRURU5EOjIwMjAwMzI1 VDEzMDAwMFoNCkRUU1RBTVA6MjAyMDAzMjFUMDAzNjUxWg0KT1JHQU5JWkVSO0NOPWJyaWFuLmUu Y2FycGVudGVyQGdtYWlsLmNvbTptYWlsdG86YnJpYW4uZS5jYXJwZW50ZXJAZ21haWwuY29tDQpV SUQ6bXZiN2xzOGFmbmQydDE3aDBzdGI5NzIxdGtAZ29vZ2xlLmNvbQ0KQVRURU5ERUU7Q1VUWVBF PUlORElWSURVQUw7Uk9MRT1SRVEtUEFSVElDSVBBTlQ7UEFSVFNUQVQ9TkVFRFMtQUNUSU9OO1JT VlA9DQogVFJVRTtDTj1hcmNoaXRlY3R1cmUtZGlzY3Vzc0BpZXRmLm9yZztYLU5VTS1HVUVTVFM9 MDptYWlsdG86YXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJlLWRpDQogc2N1c3NAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCkFUVEVOREVFO0NVVFlQ RT1JTkRJVklEVUFMO1JPTEU9UkVRLVBBUlRJQ0lQQU5UO1BBUlRTVEFUPUFDQ0VQVEVEO1JTVlA9 VFJVRQ0KIDtDTj1jaGVzdGV2ZUBnbWFpbC5jb207WC1OVU0tR1VFU1RTPTA6bWFpbHRvOmNoZXN0 ZXZlQGdtYWlsLmNvbQ0KQVRURU5ERUU7Q1VUWVBFPUlORElWSURVQUw7Uk9MRT1SRVEtUEFSVElD SVBBTlQ7UEFSVFNUQVQ9TkVFRFMtQUNUSU9OO1JTVlA9DQogVFJVRTtDTj10dGVAY3MuZmF1LmRl O1gtTlVNLUdVRVNUUz0wOm1haWx0bzp0dGVAY3MuZmF1LmRlDQpYLU1JQ1JPU09GVC1DRE8tT1dO RVJBUFBUSUQ6LTE3NzA2NjY2ODkNCkNSRUFURUQ6MjAyMDAzMjFUMDAzNjUwWg0KREVTQ1JJUFRJ T046RGVhciBjb2xsZWFndWVzXG5cbkF0IElFVEYxMDZcLCB3ZSBoYWQgYW4gaW5vZmZpY2lhbCBJ RVRGMTA2IHNpDQogZGUgbWVldGluZyBvbiBOZXctSVAgUmVzZWFyY2hcLFxuc2VlIGh0dHBzOi8v dHJhYy5pZXRmLm9yZy90cmFjL2lldGYvbWVldGluDQogZy93aWtpLzEwNnNpZGVtZWV0aW5nc1xu XG5JZiB5b3UgYXJlIGludGVyZXN0ZWQgdG8gY29udGludWUgb3Igam9pbiB0aGUgZGlzDQogY3Vz c2lvblwsXG53ZSB3b3VsZCBsaWtlIHRvIGludml0ZSB5b3UgdG8gYSBmb2xsb3d1cFwsIHRoaXMg dGltZSB2aWEgd2ViZXg6DQogXG5cbk1lZXRpbmcgaW52aXRlL2luZm8gYmVsb3cuXG5cblBsZWFz ZSBjb250YWN0IHVzIGZvciBjb21tZW50cyBhbmQgcXVlc3RpDQogb25zOlxuICByaWNoYXJkLmxp QGZ1dHVyZXdlaS5jb21cLCB0dGVAY3MuZmF1LmRlXG5cblRoYW5rIHlvdVxuICAgIFRvZXJsZXNz DQogXG5cbi0tLS0tLSBodHRwczovL2V0aGVycGFkLndpa2ltZWRpYS5vcmcvcC92MTA3LXNpZGUt bWVldGluZ1xuICAgICAgIChiYWNrDQogdXAgYXQ6IGh0dHBzOi8vYml0Lmx5LzJXdnhaRm4gKVxu XG5NZWV0aW5nXG4gIFRpdGxlOiBOZXcgSVAgQXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJlIGFuDQogZCBQcm90b2NvbHMg TWVldGluZ1xuICBUaW1lOiAgMDMvMjUvMjAyMFwsIDA4OjAwIC0gMDk6MDAgQU0gUFNUIFsxNTAw IC0gMTYwDQogMCBVVENdIChleHRlbmQgdG8gOTozMCBpZiBuZWVkZWQpXG4gICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAwNzozMCAtIDA4OjAwIEFNIFBTDQogVCBbMTQzMCAtIDE1MDAgVVRDLi4uXG5cbi06 On46fjo6fjp+On46fjp+On46fjp+On46fjp+On46fjp+On46fjp+On46fjp+On46DQogfjp+On46 fjp+On46fjp+On46fjp+On46fjp+On46On46fjo6LVxuUGxlYXNlIGRvIG5vdCBlZGl0IHRoaXMg c2VjdGlvbiBvZiB0DQogaGUgZGVzY3JpcHRpb24uXG5cblZpZXcgeW91ciBldmVudCBhdCBodHRw czovL3d3dy5nb29nbGUuY29tL2NhbGVuZGFyL2V2ZW50DQogP2FjdGlvbj1WSUVXJmVpZD1iWFpp TjJ4ek9HRm1ibVF5ZERFM2FEQnpkR0k1TnpJeGRHc2dZWEpqYUdsMFpXTjBkWEpsTFdScGMyDQog TjFjM05BYVdWMFppNXZjbWMmdG9rPU1qY2pZbkpwWVc0dVpTNWpZWEp3Wlc1MFpYSkFaMjFoYVd3 dVkyOXRNRFZoTnpabE1ETmxZDQogMkl4WlRRek5qSTRaamt4WXpSaFkySTBNak15WlRreU5qaGhO akEzTWcmY3R6PVBhY2lmaWMlMkZBdWNrbGFuZCZobD1lbl9HQiZlDQogcz0xLlxuLTo6fjp+Ojp+ On46fjp+On46fjp+On46fjp+On46fjp+On46fjp+On46fjp+On46fjp+On46fjp+On46fjp+On46 fjp+DQogOn46fjp+On46fjo6fjp+OjotDQpMQVNULU1PRElGSUVEOjIwMjAwMzIxVDAwMzY1MFoN CkxPQ0FUSU9OOg0KU0VRVUVOQ0U6MA0KU1RBVFVTOkNPTkZJUk1FRA0KU1VNTUFSWTpbYXJjaC1k XSBJbnZpdGUgdG8gd2ViZXggc2lkZSBtZWV0aW5nIDAzLzI1XCwgODowMCBBTSBvbiAiTmV3IElQ IEFyDQogY2hpdGVjdHVyZSBhbmQgUHJvdG9jb2xzIi4NClRSQU5TUDpPUEFRVUUNCkVORDpWRVZF TlQNCkVORDpWQ0FMRU5EQVINCg== --000000000000175e8c05a15299ee-- From nobody Fri Mar 20 17:54:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCE973A1005 for ; 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Fri, 20 Mar 2020 17:54:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.30] ([165.84.25.143]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id dw19sm5761964pjb.16.2020.03.20.17.54.01 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 20 Mar 2020 17:54:03 -0700 (PDT) To: Toerless Eckert , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" References: <20200320223801.GU30574@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <0c8238b4-f983-dd0c-cfd7-b3fe7fb33f3d@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 13:53:57 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200320223801.GU30574@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Invite to webex side meeting 03/25, 8:00 AM on "New IP Architecture and Protocols". X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 00:54:24 -0000 Huh? It looks as if my calendar auto-generated an invite too. Very bizarr= e, and apologies. I will not use the 'import' feature again. Regards Brian Carpenter On 21-Mar-20 11:38, Toerless Eckert wrote: > Dear colleagues >=20 > At IETF106, we had an inofficial IETF106 side meeting on New-IP Researc= h, > see https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/106sidemeetings >=20 > If you are interested to continue or join the discussion, > we would like to invite you to a followup, this time via webex: >=20 > Meeting invite/info below. >=20 > Please contact us for comments and questions: > richard.li@futurewei.com, tte@cs.fau.de >=20 > Thank you > Toerless >=20 > ------ https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/v107-side-meeting > (backup at: https://bit.ly/2WvxZFn ) >=20 > Meeting > Title: New IP Architecture and Protocols Meeting > Time: 03/25/2020, 08:00 - 09:00 AM PST [1500 - 1600 UTC] (extend to = 9:30 if needed) > 07:30 - 08:00 AM PST [1430 - 1500 UTC] Webex testi= ng if you need it. > Where: Webex (see below) > =20 > Agenda=20 >=20 > The Internet Protocol (IP) has been used successfully in our times. But= can it still support and implement emerging applications, industry verti= cals, and network infrastructural changes in the future? Some typical eme= rging applications include, but not limited to, industrial machine-to-mac= hine communications, industrial control and manufacturing, driverless veh= icles, and holographic type communications. The infrastructural changes i= nclude, for example, convergence and integration of satellite networks wi= th terrestrial networks, ManyNets, and Industrial IoT.=20 >=20 > This is the 2nd in its series of New IP Research Side Meetings with the= following as the objectives: > - To share findings and observations about the Internet and its = protocols regarding its fundamental weakness, incapability and vulnerabil= ity by its design.=20 > - To explore the impacts of future applications to the IP archit= ecture and protocols > - To investigate the implications of infrastructural changes for= the IP architecture and protocols=20 >=20 > 1. Welcome (Richard Li) - 5 minutes=20 > 2. Forwarding Layer Problem Statement =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=80=9C (Stewart= Bryant) =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=80=9C 30 minutes > available at https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bryant-arch-= fwd-layer-ps-00 > 3. An Evolution of Network Control: from Earth to Space (Dan King) =C3=A2= =E2=82=AC=E2=80=9C 30 minutes =20 > 4. Next steps/wrap up (Richard Li) =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=80=9C 5 minutes >=20 > Tooling Logistics > Logistics: > Webex: https://futurewei.my.webex.com/futurewei.my/j.php?MTID=3Dmfa1= d34bd6f206e768351e5b010cb1649 > Meeting number (access code): 627 299 859 > Meeting password: 8CjPUGgaR99 > ICS calender entry: https://futurewei.my.webex.com/futurewei.= my/j..php?MTID=3Dm035fce7bd56f4f654fa24a2fc2f8edaa > More webex info: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/network203= 0/meetings/master/v107-side-meeting/webex_meeting.txt > Meeting will not be recorded > Please use chat channel to ask questions in text or queue yourself= to ask questions in audio. > Please mute yourself when not speaking. > Email entered in Webex is not relevant (enter anything you want). > Please read here for great IETF info how to use start/use webex: > https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/107/session-participant-guide= /=20 > Etherpad URL: https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/v107-side-meeting > Please enter your Name, Affiliation into the Etherpad if you want= to > Etherpad will also be used to take minutes below, participants we= lcome to help > GitHub URL: https://github.com/network2030/meetings/tree/master/v107= -side-meeting > Meeting minutes / participant list will be published to github af= ter meeting together with slides here >=20 > Q&A/Discussion > We think the meeting can be an informal side meeting without too muc= h structure.=20 > If you have a question to the attendees, please use the webex chat. > If you have questions to the presenter, please wait for times when p= resenter asks for questions/comments > As needed, we will use the IETF "+q" on the webex channel to form a = question/comment queue > We suggest to direct followup discussions to architcture-discuss@iet= f.org if you think it is of interest to the IETF. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss >=20 From nobody Fri Mar 20 18:11:48 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8D163A1014 for ; 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Fri, 20 Mar 2020 18:11:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.30] ([165.84.25.143]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t11sm5702686pjo.21.2020.03.20.18.11.41 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 20 Mar 2020 18:11:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian E Carpenter To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <17640b35-aecd-c4b8-68b6-ab1a948aed79@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 14:11:37 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] Apology for (involuntary) invitation X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 01:11:46 -0000 It seems that my calendar software decided to sent an invitation to the list, when all I was trying to do was import an invitation to my calendar. I won't click that button again. Sorry Brian Carpenter From nobody Fri Mar 20 18:39:43 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BE633A0F34 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 18:39:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7JmTj_Y23BSw for ; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 18:39:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x229.google.com (mail-oi1-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 118F53A1013 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 18:39:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x229.google.com with SMTP id y71so8607705oia.7 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 18:39:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Rw5sFzbIwtmtKmgusg2MRZtkhXVrPDnh5eF9eO49gGY=; b=puOV8KHwhhKsoV/LF1Aqf9ZSWFRSMEgcfXj/8UbOo3YRqTtxoZwF15OFdtot7o3TIX 2zPDe3DBQfNsRJR/NN4ghUDIbBqkSQHPGE07jnIVIE+7himXKQl5Nkjn7m48s0YBk7Hs hafOSQM7xB3xbstxy3mVIZ4xzbrWE+gWjnlpX+1iFps5Y9wnhWKDusjS8vCjbstHBPle 9+tmlOct/6ZGX04TwoVGeRAsZtJmnwdtbgiEDhl2VDp82XSwOMeqG7iRp3ww7nnGG4Os pkAemanJio/gt0dZ6iYjyuyWJpEYFm5P78tnhTNq0CUcP+b/ZLrMLSX0nhv7k3LFMDGY ypFA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Rw5sFzbIwtmtKmgusg2MRZtkhXVrPDnh5eF9eO49gGY=; b=RKgOQxj6fjQ0ZKH9Xh4PLqwB0F3eB+8oU/zhAb74x2XBGKCPDZHFgnkgq/xpphUxgZ 7oMYjPb0XV5/PumfMq8Bv6gQJP1J7tmw+60DMwZcZNwxfwy7dMhyr9rf6biXyJOr3Oe6 l3j1cOOQR8eU23cmvsUHbutEqBMePTGuT0kdu9Q5l0/njXNs5tE/aGyE2qyZS6S+TCe9 9m31E0159XEOKIYMlg8hruf363sN/dN3svG6323e/E9vMjKU/iEdE0GND/6IcWCXCVcv NUarPyEyaJtjCz/m0hpY+GWnQl+i+UVMe6lBrbVgZ9XMO48cMcgPTbG+FiWfoeVjISUa 15VA== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ1p/JfZg8mk0zP2zZqJrsz5q9zRHPmLmfChpi7XrHmYC+TGXQ40 dJtN0Nkwkn9Gz2OMbj+XeKsAe1zS68wHJb+GtQoJIC8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vs/qRq+oCXvZmu2grRUo90LIXenzF1lOO8G1k4uubOJDzQ9aYKW1Dnbsq7uDpcQBOIjklZfA/gk7BNK5JN0vyc= X-Received: by 2002:aca:4986:: with SMTP id w128mr8723730oia.46.1584754769941; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 18:39:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200320223801.GU30574@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <8e49e49b-3e56-ea18-7faf-75623f14f548@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <8e49e49b-3e56-ea18-7faf-75623f14f548@cs.tcd.ie> From: Scott Brim Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 21:39:13 -0400 Message-ID: To: Stephen Farrell Cc: Toerless Eckert , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001e570105a15379b3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Invite to webex side meeting 03/25, 8:00 AM on "New IP Architecture and Protocols". X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 01:39:42 -0000 --0000000000001e570105a15379b3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" So ... is the only problem the invitations? --0000000000001e570105a15379b3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
So ... is the only problem the invitations?
--0000000000001e570105a15379b3-- From nobody Fri Mar 20 19:24:28 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E8883A1091 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 19:24:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.98 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.98 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, T_SPF_HELO_TEMPERROR=0.01, T_SPF_TEMPERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7jqLTY-xJfJR for ; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 19:24:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C1F5C3A108C for ; 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Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="dNAsRDgLUP2UeP0DYKPquYfVAO18CfE80" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Invite to webex side meeting 03/25, 8:00 AM on "New IP Architecture and Protocols". X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 02:24:25 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --dNAsRDgLUP2UeP0DYKPquYfVAO18CfE80 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="hGAoAliRoqu6IaObzeOLfNiFlu5O4kY7W"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Scott Brim Cc: Toerless Eckert , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Message-ID: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Invite to webex side meeting 03/25, 8:00 AM on "New IP Architecture and Protocols". References: <20200320223801.GU30574@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <8e49e49b-3e56-ea18-7faf-75623f14f548@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: --hGAoAliRoqu6IaObzeOLfNiFlu5O4kY7W Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------603CD94EF9480D0629BF3B0A" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------603CD94EF9480D0629BF3B0A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Scott, On 21/03/2020 01:39, Scott Brim wrote: > So ... is the only problem the invitations? Well, I'm not expressing any opinion here/as of now on the content of the proposals, I was really reacting to the manner in which this was being aired, as if it were somehow "official." It'd (IMO) be much better to just send a mail saying "here's the technical detail, whatcha think?" rather than teeing up some pesudo-official presentations and agenda'd meetings etc. In general, taking such a pseudo- official approach tends to bias me towards thinking the proponents themselves consider their arguments weak, but that's just my own bias maybe, and I'm often wrong. Cheers, S. --------------603CD94EF9480D0629BF3B0A Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9t lyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQAB 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ANhLgQ3sBog1E/N+n9i4fjJmj2o5ZNww3h7cjONWaNMfVdpG3RPtGn5p TY6YeX0FAD6cTGkZnzcCP3A= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vsy5X3yrprnCxbuduf68vuET57XgkhWkNa25NCKnwaStibg8T4Hl5qd4oSQathRG5+uc/nm/Q== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:4dc7:: with SMTP id f7mr16542555wru.72.1584789009677; Sat, 21 Mar 2020 04:10:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from broadband.bt.com ([2a00:23a8:4140:0:5915:bd2f:dc58:330f]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b202sm13165861wmd.15.2020.03.21.04.10.08 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 21 Mar 2020 04:10:09 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) From: Stewart Bryant In-Reply-To: <68A1B782-A4E4-49B5-AA5E-2E69F8D5A27F@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:10:07 +0000 Cc: Stewart Bryant , Melinda Shore , Toerless Eckert , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2334E7C0-FAC2-4C22-8BDE-F1AA93FE12B5@gmail.com> References: <20200320223801.GU30574@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <8e49e49b-3e56-ea18-7faf-75623f14f548@cs.tcd.ie> <68A1B782-A4E4-49B5-AA5E-2E69F8D5A27F@gmail.com> To: Stephen Farrell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Invite to webex side meeting 03/25, 8:00 AM on "New IP Architecture and Protocols". X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:10:24 -0000 ..and also when the IAB fails to drive the changes needed in the = Internet to support the evolving applications requirements or to = properly track the changes in the Internet itself. I did kind of think that the IAB would have had a 10 to 20 year = evolution plan front and centre of its thinking, but I have never seen = any evidence that it regards that to be one of its core = responsibilities. I also thought that the IAB ought to be an enabler of this thought = process by encouraging input form others, but rather than that it seems = to be a tightly closed community. .. just saying. - Stewart > On 20 Mar 2020, at 23:15, Tony Li wrote: >=20 >=20 > And I hate to see the IAB stomp on discussions. >=20 > T >=20 >=20 >> On Mar 20, 2020, at 4:09 PM, Melinda Shore = wrote: >>=20 >> On 3/20/20 3:03 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >>> AFAIK this is basically an initiative driven by one or >>> a small set of vendors. It is not an IAB activity and >>> this list is. ISTM somewhat cheeky to cast this as if >>> it were sort-of "official" by sending ICS invites to >>> this list and suggesting this list be used for follow >>> ups. I'm saying that as an individual and have not >>> asked other IAB folks what they think, but again >>> speaking personally, I'd be much happier if people >>> and organisations had a bit more style. >>=20 >> That was close to my reaction, as well. >>=20 >> Melinda >>=20 >> --=20 >> Melinda Shore >> melinda.shore@nomountain.net >>=20 >> Software longa, hardware brevis >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Architecture-discuss mailing list >> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss From nobody Sat Mar 21 08:21:45 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58DE83A11C0 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 2020 08:21:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=trammell.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VTnFGeB1FLAt for ; Sat, 21 Mar 2020 08:21:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-bc09.mail.infomaniak.ch (smtp-bc09.mail.infomaniak.ch [45.157.188.9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3C07B3A0C11 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 2020 08:21:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-3-0001.mail.infomaniak.ch (unknown [10.4.36.108]) by smtp-2-3000.mail.infomaniak.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48l49q5CKjzlhtQf; Sat, 21 Mar 2020 16:21:35 +0100 (CET) Received: from [IPv6:2a02:169:17b2:0:48b:7242:8fc6:7621] (unknown [IPV6:2a02:169:17b2:0:48b:7242:8fc6:7621]) by smtp-3-0001.mail.infomaniak.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 48l49p2hdnzljlNf; Sat, 21 Mar 2020 16:21:34 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=trammell.ch; s=20191114; t=1584804095; bh=/R7xXqR+b+1M3G1Kc1I6kHtdWT+7RxYiBh6V7i+jLZg=; h=From:Subject:Date:Cc:To:From; b=T5SAB1eJ7M2yX0hQgUuIORbtQIdOqXdf+NnSKw5kWDoTJqLkAxl+S0sL+qG0x6w06 8nIy/rqnwBex27quDvQCY/7c6i8ld1L9bPLyIuSSczx+Gg978FJvAB1x6/3QpDohMx meb+vhfwUmZwIr54rvWvtAPWsKsxF3QVX0fnLqCA= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 16:21:33 +0100 Message-Id: <2A2794D3-25C5-4259-AF5D-098671A786C7@trammell.ch> Cc: Stephen Farrell , Toerless Eckert , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" To: Stewart Bryant X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17D50) X-Antivirus: Dr.Web (R) for Unix mail servers drweb plugin ver.6.0.2.8 X-Antivirus-Code: 0x100000 Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] On the (f)utility of prescriptive architecture X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 15:21:44 -0000 Hi Stewart, all, I=E2=80=99ll leave the question of the appropriateness or this side meeting a= nnouncement to the side, but I did want to respond to the notion that the IA= B should have some top-down master plan for the Internet, and that the lack o= f such is evidence that the IAB is not properly tracking changes in the Inte= rnet itself. Architectural guidance from the IAB has admittedly been somewhat meta: 5218,= 6709, and 8170 on how protocols themselves emerge and evolve in a multi-pro= tocol, multi-implementor, multi-operator environment; 6973, 7754, and 7624 o= n privacy, access control, and confidentiality concerns of protocols up the s= tack; 8546 and 8558 on the implications additional confidentiality on the wi= re has on transport design and operations, and so on. Each of these efforts h= as been in parallel to related efforts in the IETF (I would argue that the d= esign and deployment of QUIC, for instance, is influenced, in some cases dee= ply, by all of the cited RFCs). True, there is no overarching prescriptive =E2=80=9Carchitecture for the Int= ernet=E2=80=9D, because IMO developing such a thing would be a colossal wast= e of time. In the absence of a lever with which to impose architectural will= , in the best case the broad and diverse community that builds and runs the I= nternet would look at such a thing, maybe read the abstract, say =E2=80=9Cye= ah that=E2=80=99s nice=E2=80=9D then go back to the business of keeping thin= gs running. What is more useful is descriptive architecture in the small: lo= oking at the way things are and drawing insights toward evolutionary change;= the RFCs cited above are all examples of this sort of thing. Most of the problems the long history of IP replacements (including the ones= I=E2=80=99ve worked on, and continue to work on) over the years have identi= fied aren=E2=80=99t really technical, or at least are not technical in tract= ably addressable ways (the speed of light and the fact that all operations o= ne can do in a network have strictly nonnegative latency are problems as old= and hard as the non existence of perpetual motion machines). Rather, they a= re issues of inter organizational relationships and business models: rethink= ing inter domain routing or end to end QoS require an alignment of incentive= s that seldom emerges organically in a multi operator network. If you=E2=80=99= d like the IAB to address these authoritatively, you can talk to your friend= ly local NomCom about appointing some economists, but it=E2=80=99s not clear= to me that that=E2=80=99s the best business for the IAB to be in. Cheers, Brian Sent from my iPhone > On 21 Mar 2020, at 12:11, Stewart Bryant wrote:= >=20 > =EF=BB=BF...and also when the IAB fails to drive the changes needed in the= Internet to support the evolving applications requirements or to properly t= rack the changes in the Internet itself. >=20 > I did kind of think that the IAB would have had a 10 to 20 year evolution p= lan front and centre of its thinking, but I have never seen any evidence tha= t it regards that to be one of its core responsibilities. >=20 > I also thought that the IAB ought to be an enabler of this thought process= by encouraging input form others, but rather than that it seems to be a tig= htly closed community. >=20 > ... just saying. >=20 > - Stewart >=20 >=20 >> On 20 Mar 2020, at 23:15, Tony Li wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >> And I hate to see the IAB stomp on discussions. >>=20 >> T >>=20 >>=20 >>>> On Mar 20, 2020, at 4:09 PM, Melinda Shore wrote: >>>=20 >>> On 3/20/20 3:03 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >>>> AFAIK this is basically an initiative driven by one or >>>> a small set of vendors. It is not an IAB activity and >>>> this list is. ISTM somewhat cheeky to cast this as if >>>> it were sort-of "official" by sending ICS invites to >>>> this list and suggesting this list be used for follow >>>> ups. I'm saying that as an individual and have not >>>> asked other IAB folks what they think, but again >>>> speaking personally, I'd be much happier if people >>>> and organisations had a bit more style. >>>=20 >>> That was close to my reaction, as well. >>>=20 >>> Melinda >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> Melinda Shore >>> melinda.shore@nomountain.net >>>=20 >>> Software longa, hardware brevis >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Architecture-discuss mailing list >>> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Architecture-discuss mailing list >> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss From nobody Sat Mar 21 09:57:06 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD13B3A0542 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 2020 09:56:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id grjpC6J8lEdW for ; Sat, 21 Mar 2020 09:56:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6F01F3A05A4 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 2020 09:56:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.147] (p548DCD70.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.205.112]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 48l6Hh6J0pzySW; Sat, 21 Mar 2020 17:56:48 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <20200320223801.GU30574@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 17:56:48 +0100 Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 606502608.198697-5935c05a421f95ac1b2cca77a135d332 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8A117DA8-AAD7-4563-89EE-87B40D9CFC00@tzi.org> References: <20200320223801.GU30574@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> To: Toerless Eckert X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Invite to webex side meeting 03/25, 8:00 AM on "New IP Architecture and Protocols". X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 16:57:04 -0000 On 2020-03-20, at 23:38, Toerless Eckert wrote: >=20 > Time: 03/25/2020, 08:00 - 09:00 AM PST [1500 - 1600 UTC]=20 This information is broken (US is not on PST any more). In any case, I have copied a pointer into=20 https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/ietf107replacements which you can edit once you have figured out when you want to run that = meeting. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Sun Mar 22 02:20:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3893B3A0433 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 02:20:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2B1aOye9n7Xs for ; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 02:20:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm1-x32e.google.com (mail-wm1-x32e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E4E5C3A041D for ; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 02:20:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x32e.google.com with SMTP id c187so10936288wme.1 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 02:20:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=m8nydu1mbhUbcjBiFX8ttEcAKx0xOlSTfSxY53FB6E4=; b=unGapWEtZhCxepv0V3I/Eoxdx89/QWkLa2pV6ZVibzAuyTYseBPmW5rd5MI57NqvRx m5MVGhPvTs6Pp4yRL62XhH4j1kBSI5/v2FMD6jt5WRd2yHdVhqlgNESSrZxwhw1kzo3v szonzS+66ELnZnvloXobH9PE/k1Q+KwWElV4Sb0GZ0YpotE8uw6g6730xhN1zGnyQYM4 cKBrOEOSRblW0jt8EEP/OVWzD66rffJ7PoA+2YB8EK3+vNSTHCJ3Dbz2Jf76jntOZX2s lgZwXOuD6TN/rz+o2fEPrH6+z0T7bpux9uYvnDYydt3bPaPIUQjjWrsrM5UkRLxv//+t vBnQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=m8nydu1mbhUbcjBiFX8ttEcAKx0xOlSTfSxY53FB6E4=; b=gaM47X+lVcCQvKCx8FdxEHNaDNlhwl0/4QIAHuZDv7Lc1w3vyfHH8//6yz4v+YsNR8 WOkg2ZnMyL8E9yVsmhjVR/PYjlyDY5QtqJJ6HIGMgg5PrJPT5CHdPlwsZAn50v18x1iK LbJz0rXZ1LUb2eR6tMjoGaNKHbV2K2blcptg1wlLfSHm0DtndnP5qBeRHJZzKpXe6Fvr OJS8oKUsu8leXbJLcK6G6qLp2mE/RJGbzAKtEr1vmgO3t8h8UNfbtKgebddTK1yHphGe TGdowY3AZChcPupUizVIF9tyN8TnBfYcDjnbu6eKGv7xGwaBG4FyMgs8pGlZTBNRunjn HV1w== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ3jQos+5jIAZw9s2KMXxS0cGePv5gpgDm67D53scOLUpsZNimcl +rR739iOqM5W6Ta56T3zHto= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vt9LALUq/Dimt0bQAvSjpjqdHne27UFqaebCfIlC1AozkUjZWLehAeatZdtrwgd2xgqgZxG5g== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:7c05:: with SMTP id x5mr20226489wmc.67.1584868818956; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 02:20:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.46] ([62.3.64.16]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a14sm7096112wmj.6.2020.03.22.02.20.18 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 22 Mar 2020 02:20:18 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) From: Stewart Bryant In-Reply-To: <2A2794D3-25C5-4259-AF5D-098671A786C7@trammell.ch> Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 09:19:14 +0000 Cc: Stewart Bryant , Stephen Farrell , Toerless Eckert , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0B3B71EE-F5BB-45F0-84EA-ECF454921648@gmail.com> References: <2A2794D3-25C5-4259-AF5D-098671A786C7@trammell.ch> To: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] On the (f)utility of prescriptive architecture X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 09:20:24 -0000 > On 21 Mar 2020, at 15:21, Brian Trammell (IETF) = wrote: >=20 > Hi Stewart, all, >=20 > I=E2=80=99ll leave the question of the appropriateness or this side = meeting announcement to the side, but I did want to respond to the = notion that the IAB should have some top-down master plan for the = Internet, and that the lack of such is evidence that the IAB is not = properly tracking changes in the Internet itself. >=20 > Architectural guidance from the IAB has admittedly been somewhat meta: = 5218, 6709, and 8170 on how protocols themselves emerge and evolve in a = multi-protocol, multi-implementor, multi-operator environment; 6973, = 7754, and 7624 on privacy, access control, and confidentiality concerns = of protocols up the stack; 8546 and 8558 on the implications additional = confidentiality on the wire has on transport design and operations, and = so on. Each of these efforts has been in parallel to related efforts in = the IETF (I would argue that the design and deployment of QUIC, for = instance, is influenced, in some cases deeply, by all of the cited = RFCs). Maybe I have missed it, but I have not seen any IAB work with the = community on the de facto fundamental restructuring of the Internet into = a series of walled gardens with best effort global traffic on a path to = become a minority interest. For those that have not noticed it, I recommend reading Geoff Hustons = work on the death of transit. This points to a huge elephant that is = sitting on the middle of the room that we completely ignore. Even if the IAB is not able to directly design the architecture of the = Internet, it ought to at least be the body that reminds us all what it = actually is, and provides some insight into both the opportunities and = the threats. =46rom my perspective, and it is one that we articulate in our draft, = the change is very much an opportunity in that it returns the Internet = into an Inter-net and provides mechanisms that allow us to divide and = conquer the intractable technical, operational and economic problem of = advancing the capability of a global scale network.=20 >=20 > True, there is no overarching prescriptive =E2=80=9Carchitecture for = the Internet=E2=80=9D, because IMO developing such a thing would be a = colossal waste of time. In the absence of a lever with which to impose = architectural will, in the best case the broad and diverse community = that builds and runs the Internet would look at such a thing, maybe read = the abstract, say =E2=80=9Cyeah that=E2=80=99s nice=E2=80=9D then go = back to the business of keeping things running. What is more useful is = descriptive architecture in the small: looking at the way things are and = drawing insights toward evolutionary change; the RFCs cited above are = all examples of this sort of thing. Those RFCs largely concern things that run over the Internet data paths, = not the way the we might align those paths with future needs. There is no Internet equivalent of what 3GPP does, and continues to do = for wireless networks. Nor the continuous evolution process that the = IEEE has with Ethernet. We work on the basis that the data plane we = designed many years ago is unchangeable except in maters of relatively = minor detail such as changing the length of an IP address. >=20 > Most of the problems the long history of IP replacements (including = the ones I=E2=80=99ve worked on, and continue to work on) over the years = have identified aren=E2=80=99t really technical, or at least are not = technical in tractably addressable ways (the speed of light and the fact = that all operations one can do in a network have strictly nonnegative = latency are problems as old and hard as the non existence of perpetual = motion machines). Rather, they are issues of inter organizational = relationships and business models: rethinking inter domain routing or = end to end QoS require an alignment of incentives that seldom emerges = organically in a multi operator network. The point we make in the draft, and is one we need to develop in future = versions, is that there is an evolution in the Internet architecture = that make it feasible to implement change in a way that has hitherto not = been possible. Furthermore there is an opportunity for an economic model = that supports such change.=20 > If you=E2=80=99d like the IAB to address these authoritatively, you = can talk to your friendly local NomCom about appointing some economists, = but it=E2=80=99s not clear to me that that=E2=80=99s the best business = for the IAB to be in. I had not thought of economists per se, but now you mention it that = might be a good idea, We, the IETF do need to understand the economic and, for that matter, = governmental (taken from the perspective of a global exert rather than a = particular government) impacts of our technical decisions and it would = make sense for them to be part of the long term oversight role the IAB = is chartered to take. - Stewart >=20 > Cheers, Brian >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 >> On 21 Mar 2020, at 12:11, Stewart Bryant = wrote: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BF...and also when the IAB fails to drive the changes needed = in the Internet to support the evolving applications requirements or to = properly track the changes in the Internet itself. >>=20 >> I did kind of think that the IAB would have had a 10 to 20 year = evolution plan front and centre of its thinking, but I have never seen = any evidence that it regards that to be one of its core = responsibilities. >>=20 >> I also thought that the IAB ought to be an enabler of this thought = process by encouraging input form others, but rather than that it seems = to be a tightly closed community. >>=20 >> ... just saying. >>=20 >> - Stewart >>=20 >>=20 >>> On 20 Mar 2020, at 23:15, Tony Li wrote: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> And I hate to see the IAB stomp on discussions. >>>=20 >>> T >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>>> On Mar 20, 2020, at 4:09 PM, Melinda Shore = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> On 3/20/20 3:03 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >>>>> AFAIK this is basically an initiative driven by one or >>>>> a small set of vendors. It is not an IAB activity and >>>>> this list is. ISTM somewhat cheeky to cast this as if >>>>> it were sort-of "official" by sending ICS invites to >>>>> this list and suggesting this list be used for follow >>>>> ups. I'm saying that as an individual and have not >>>>> asked other IAB folks what they think, but again >>>>> speaking personally, I'd be much happier if people >>>>> and organisations had a bit more style. >>>>=20 >>>> That was close to my reaction, as well. >>>>=20 >>>> Melinda >>>>=20 >>>> --=20 >>>> Melinda Shore >>>> melinda.shore@nomountain.net >>>>=20 >>>> Software longa, hardware brevis >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Architecture-discuss mailing list >>>> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Architecture-discuss mailing list >>> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Architecture-discuss mailing list >> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss >=20 From nobody Sun Mar 22 04:21:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A61963A0875 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 04:21:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.697 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.697 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=elandsys.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FcARDs9RMknZ for ; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 04:21:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.elandsys.com (mx.elandsys.com [162.213.2.210]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 179023A0872 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 04:20:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DESKTOP-K6V9C2L.elandsys.com ([102.116.125.113]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.15.2/8.14.5) with ESMTPSA id 02MBKZ2f023932 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 22 Mar 2020 04:20:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1584876051; x=1584962451; i=@elandsys.com; bh=LIXirP/hj+grgTw9JAeO6sH6IdtCVO3eDEM1aMdBL+g=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=Yo11r998XGjl5YZNpVLLXs+6lIg1L55bKSgsrj15ZRMYPPgXkeWQGqVwYD2r3l8DE SxmPVNXTweArrN1Ld4WzzubtMGo0+jFNYjivXpGwI8m33NVe7m8d6+xcsSO/9btesn r0IntEPhJrPXjjUSIbORNj+1yHCPjxLSV/blyCDI= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20200322025910.0df3b298@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 04:02:05 -0700 To: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" , architecture-discuss@iab.org From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: <2A2794D3-25C5-4259-AF5D-098671A786C7@trammell.ch> References: <2A2794D3-25C5-4259-AF5D-098671A786C7@trammell.ch> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] On the (f)utility of prescriptive architecture X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 11:21:14 -0000 Hi Brian, At 08:21 AM 21-03-2020, Brian Trammell (IETF) wrote: >True, there is no overarching prescriptive=20 >"architecture for the Internet"=9D, because IMO=20 >developing such a thing would be a colossal=20 >waste of time. In the absence of a lever with=20 >which to impose architectural will, in the best=20 >case the broad and diverse community that builds=20 >and runs the Internet would look at such a=20 >thing, maybe read the abstract, say "yeah that's=20 >nice"=9D then go back to the business of keeping=20 >things running. What is more useful is=20 >descriptive architecture in the small: looking=20 >at the way things are and drawing insights=20 >toward evolutionary change; the RFCs cited above=20 >are all examples of this sort of thing. I read Stewart's message differently. If I=20 understood it correctly, it was about thinking=20 about the long-term evolution of the Internet. A=20 person can look at the details (what is referred=20 to as "in the small") if he/she has the time to=20 do that. The person might still have to look at=20 the broad picture if he/she is interested in the=20 evolutionary/architectural aspects. >Most of the problems the long history of IP=20 >replacements (including the ones I've worked on,=20 >and continue to work on) over the years have=20 >identified aren't really technical, or at least=20 >are not technical in tractably addressable ways=20 >(the speed of light and the fact that all=20 >operations one can do in a network have strictly=20 >nonnegative latency are problems as old and hard=20 >as the non existence of perpetual motion=20 >machines). Rather, they are issues of inter=20 >organizational relationships and business=20 >models: rethinking inter domain routing or end=20 >to end QoS require an alignment of incentives=20 >that seldom emerges organically in a multi=20 >operator network. If you'd like the IAB to=20 >address these authoritatively, you can talk to=20 >your friendly local NomCom about appointing some=20 >economists, but it's not clear to me that that's=20 >the best business for the IAB to be in. Some points (please see above) could be doable=20 without replacing IAB members with economists. There is a message from the IAB at=20 https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/AWEWI7rCmbOzifT5xQRpyciPLE8/=20 It is understandable that it has to see to the=20 other aspects of its Charter. I could not find=20 anything [1] in there which takes a "let's think=20 ahead" approach or a "let's rethink". The recent events could produce a significant shift in the existing models. Regards, S. Moonesamy 1. There may be an exception to that. It may=20 take a few years to see whether that is actually the case. =20 From nobody Sun Mar 22 06:14:58 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E1B53A07BC for ; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 06:14:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mjmontpetit-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b_Cavn3rrZI1 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 06:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2a.google.com (mail-io1-xd2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6F1553A078A for ; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 06:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2a.google.com with SMTP id q9so11331242iod.4 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 06:14:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mjmontpetit-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=NnScidFdwOCI4Y/tr+pR5c5GpAgF3BVqVe8/80eHGmk=; b=D4t2fNpbdFYUUpBjkXPlgimzr+u4XvRr1RinFrX5ULyHGGoLhY1frk1e04jjy1ZQP0 MkJ/gVpU4iM4VRVHLksUxXGgl6XBJi3BGzJbwH2V8ehh0ly0jksPE7+NBOBhq+wwOZ/u fNnsJGzfc8lnixfKgSGYmAmnBwhgpYnGl/PLKOxIKWSXYrgCMPRs5oyqgrnz7Z/LUzbN Z6OXJ04iaKxUZgopquzeSF4hkaXhu6gCpNNIh9aztYkHyv4IXwGQY4Xu9KSiIiJk56Db 6U3f0yx/Q20wY+MVbiWRucLK2SQ/hlb4yUm/09yYAJntkQpZnYTsJmC7yHylgdHTYbP/ M9fQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=NnScidFdwOCI4Y/tr+pR5c5GpAgF3BVqVe8/80eHGmk=; b=iJSDAfkHmN6rAqdyS4B+xMsuD4HvyJXjhowiKLOgZKsqpnADxEUE43GMXtU/kpIG/T CXq9aU7ptOkC523fCYsT+A7+pqYd5y2I9yoDfLxvXVb36A52Rz6LJZa3cptxg2raWpqp hnArLT6ZD807o1KM4WNf+Oa1zB2xUM3C4sE9pSTJ4LZrVkkG506nhRNcv0ODcc53Ilg2 bu5Kv5tAiBqz+yn3RLEbd1olwZcHcaTSs6OGDyCgTvgRc6qynboaVdI3IyLD9DX7jkyj vxdwf7kJTP1ryn51qSiYkZNrmrLQRk6av/J/BjbqjC+aCcm8MlRwtcyU3uny3f/NSlUW 7zGA== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ05dVF51vj+lgoNoovl9EUTrkWQsIfqJH3G662aTkzO5pwtWQwE Cyt/obZkgaXe/0XW4azLl9M4eG83l0RY2gg6l+6i/Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vvArFkh1E7zA6yHHC+C0ParqHMC87UU2ykBso6ir5ByeRTkbe8R/2Z1CONOZUK8RPxheWmFxJ+mQUlSAtTZ0vw= X-Received: by 2002:a5e:930a:: with SMTP id k10mr15331589iom.132.1584882891389; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 06:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 1058052472880 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 09:14:50 -0400 From: Marie-Jose Montpetit In-Reply-To: <0B3B71EE-F5BB-45F0-84EA-ECF454921648@gmail.com> References: <2A2794D3-25C5-4259-AF5D-098671A786C7@trammell.ch> <0B3B71EE-F5BB-45F0-84EA-ECF454921648@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 09:14:50 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" , Stewart Bryant Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" , Toerless Eckert Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c089e605a1714dbe" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] On the (f)utility of prescriptive architecture X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 13:14:56 -0000 --000000000000c089e605a1714dbe Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stewart: I think you that you are a bit unfair about the IETF not being as worthy of 3GPP or IEEE but I will not launch a polemic on this. But I will suggest you may want to be looking at what is happening in the IRTF wrt looking at Internet evolution. I actually smiled at your "We work on the basis that the data plane we designed many years ago is unchangeable=E2=80= =9D as we are looking at programming that data plane in the COINRG group not changing a few bits in the header. mjm (with my coinrg co-chair hat) Marie-Jos=C3=A9 Montpetit, Ph.D. marie@mjmontpetit.com On March 22, 2020 at 5:20:47 AM, Stewart Bryant (stewart.bryant@gmail.com) wrote: > On 21 Mar 2020, at 15:21, Brian Trammell (IETF) wrote: > > Hi Stewart, all, > > I=E2=80=99ll leave the question of the appropriateness or this side meeti= ng announcement to the side, but I did want to respond to the notion that the IAB should have some top-down master plan for the Internet, and that the lack of such is evidence that the IAB is not properly tracking changes in the Internet itself. > > Architectural guidance from the IAB has admittedly been somewhat meta: 5218, 6709, and 8170 on how protocols themselves emerge and evolve in a multi-protocol, multi-implementor, multi-operator environment; 6973, 7754, and 7624 on privacy, access control, and confidentiality concerns of protocols up the stack; 8546 and 8558 on the implications additional confidentiality on the wire has on transport design and operations, and so on. Each of these efforts has been in parallel to related efforts in the IETF (I would argue that the design and deployment of QUIC, for instance, is influenced, in some cases deeply, by all of the cited RFCs). Maybe I have missed it, but I have not seen any IAB work with the community on the de facto fundamental restructuring of the Internet into a series of walled gardens with best effort global traffic on a path to become a minority interest. For those that have not noticed it, I recommend reading Geoff Hustons work on the death of transit. This points to a huge elephant that is sitting on the middle of the room that we completely ignore. Even if the IAB is not able to directly design the architecture of the Internet, it ought to at least be the body that reminds us all what it actually is, and provides some insight into both the opportunities and the threats. >From my perspective, and it is one that we articulate in our draft, the change is very much an opportunity in that it returns the Internet into an Inter-net and provides mechanisms that allow us to divide and conquer the intractable technical, operational and economic problem of advancing the capability of a global scale network. > > True, there is no overarching prescriptive =E2=80=9Carchitecture for the Internet=E2=80=9D, because IMO developing such a thing would be a colossal = waste of time. In the absence of a lever with which to impose architectural will, in the best case the broad and diverse community that builds and runs the Internet would look at such a thing, maybe read the abstract, say =E2=80=9C= yeah that=E2=80=99s nice=E2=80=9D then go back to the business of keeping things= running. What is more useful is descriptive architecture in the small: looking at the way things are and drawing insights toward evolutionary change; the RFCs cited above are all examples of this sort of thing. Those RFCs largely concern things that run over the Internet data paths, not the way the we might align those paths with future needs. There is no Internet equivalent of what 3GPP does, and continues to do for wireless networks. Nor the continuous evolution process that the IEEE has with Ethernet. We work on the basis that the data plane we designed many years ago is unchangeable except in maters of relatively minor detail such as changing the length of an IP address. > > Most of the problems the long history of IP replacements (including the ones I=E2=80=99ve worked on, and continue to work on) over the years have identified aren=E2=80=99t really technical, or at least are not technical i= n tractably addressable ways (the speed of light and the fact that all operations one can do in a network have strictly nonnegative latency are problems as old and hard as the non existence of perpetual motion machines). Rather, they are issues of inter organizational relationships and business models: rethinking inter domain routing or end to end QoS require an alignment of incentives that seldom emerges organically in a multi operator network. The point we make in the draft, and is one we need to develop in future versions, is that there is an evolution in the Internet architecture that make it feasible to implement change in a way that has hitherto not been possible. Furthermore there is an opportunity for an economic model that supports such change. > If you=E2=80=99d like the IAB to address these authoritatively, you can t= alk to your friendly local NomCom about appointing some economists, but it=E2=80= =99s not clear to me that that=E2=80=99s the best business for the IAB to be in. I had not thought of economists per se, but now you mention it that might be a good idea, We, the IETF do need to understand the economic and, for that matter, governmental (taken from the perspective of a global exert rather than a particular government) impacts of our technical decisions and it would make sense for them to be part of the long term oversight role the IAB is chartered to take. - Stewart > > Cheers, Brian > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On 21 Mar 2020, at 12:11, Stewart Bryant wrote: >> >> =EF=BB=BF...and also when the IAB fails to drive the changes needed in t= he Internet to support the evolving applications requirements or to properly track the changes in the Internet itself. >> >> I did kind of think that the IAB would have had a 10 to 20 year evolution plan front and centre of its thinking, but I have never seen any evidence that it regards that to be one of its core responsibilities. >> >> I also thought that the IAB ought to be an enabler of this thought process by encouraging input form others, but rather than that it seems to be a tightly closed community. >> >> ... just saying. >> >> - Stewart >> >> >>> On 20 Mar 2020, at 23:15, Tony Li wrote: >>> >>> >>> And I hate to see the IAB stomp on discussions. >>> >>> T >>> >>> >>>>> On Mar 20, 2020, at 4:09 PM, Melinda Shore < melinda.shore@nomountain.net> wrote: >>>> >>>> On 3/20/20 3:03 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >>>>> AFAIK this is basically an initiative driven by one or >>>>> a small set of vendors. It is not an IAB activity and >>>>> this list is. ISTM somewhat cheeky to cast this as if >>>>> it were sort-of "official" by sending ICS invites to >>>>> this list and suggesting this list be used for follow >>>>> ups. I'm saying that as an individual and have not >>>>> asked other IAB folks what they think, but again >>>>> speaking personally, I'd be much happier if people >>>>> and organisations had a bit more style. >>>> >>>> That was close to my reaction, as well. >>>> >>>> Melinda >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Melinda Shore >>>> melinda.shore@nomountain.net >>>> >>>> Software longa, hardware brevis >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Architecture-discuss mailing list >>>> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Architecture-discuss mailing list >>> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Architecture-discuss mailing list >> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > _______________________________________________ Architecture-discuss mailing list Architecture-discuss@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss --000000000000c089e605a1714dbe Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =
Stew= art: I think you that you are a bit unfair about the IETF not being as wort= hy of 3GPP or IEEE but I will not launch a polemic on this. But I will sugg= est you may want to be looking at what is happening in the IRTF wrt looking= at Internet evolution. I actually smiled at your "We work on the basi= s that the data plane we designed many years ago is unchangeable=E2=80=9D a= s we are looking at programming that data plane in the COINRG group not cha= nging a few bits in the header.

mjm (with my coinrg co-chair hat)

Marie-Jos=C3=A9 Montpetit, Ph.D.

On March 22, 2020 at 5:20:= 47 AM, Stewart Bryant (stewart.= bryant@gmail.com) wrote:



> On 21 Mar 2020, at 15:21, Brian = Trammell (IETF) <ietf@trammell.ch> wrote:
>
> Hi Stewart, all,
>
> I=E2=80=99l= l leave the question of the appropriateness or this side meeting announceme= nt to the side, but I did want to respond to the notion that the IAB should= have some top-down master plan for the Internet, and that the lack of such= is evidence that the IAB is not properly tracking changes in the Internet = itself.
>
> Architectural guidance from the IAB has admittedly= been somewhat meta: 5218, 6709, and 8170 on how protocols themselves emerg= e and evolve in a multi-protocol, multi-implementor, multi-operator environ= ment; 6973, 7754, and 7624 on privacy, access control, and confidentiality = concerns of protocols up the stack; 8546 and 8558 on the implications addit= ional confidentiality on the wire has on transport design and operations, a= nd so on. Each of these efforts has been in parallel to related efforts in = the IETF (I would argue that the design and deployment of QUIC, for instanc= e, is influenced, in some cases deeply, by all of the cited RFCs).

<= br>Maybe I have missed it, but I have not seen any IAB work with the commun= ity on the de facto fundamental restructuring of the Internet into a series= of walled gardens with best effort global traffic on a path to become a mi= nority interest.

For those that have not noticed it, I recommend rea= ding Geoff Hustons work on the death of transit. This points to a huge elep= hant that is sitting on the middle of the room that we completely ignore.
Even if the IAB is not able to directly design the architecture of th= e Internet, it ought to at least be the body that reminds us all what it ac= tually is, and provides some insight into both the opportunities and the th= reats.

From my perspective, and it is one that we articulate in our = draft, the change is very much an opportunity in that it returns the Intern= et into an Inter-net and provides mechanisms that allow us to divide and co= nquer the intractable technical, operational and economic problem of advanc= ing the capability of a global scale network.

>
> True, t= here is no overarching prescriptive =E2=80=9Carchitecture for the Internet= =E2=80=9D, because IMO developing such a thing would be a colossal waste of= time. In the absence of a lever with which to impose architectural will, i= n the best case the broad and diverse community that builds and runs the In= ternet would look at such a thing, maybe read the abstract, say =E2=80=9Cye= ah that=E2=80=99s nice=E2=80=9D then go back to the business of keeping thi= ngs running. What is more useful is descriptive architecture in the small: = looking at the way things are and drawing insights toward evolutionary chan= ge; the RFCs cited above are all examples of this sort of thing.

Tho= se RFCs largely concern things that run over the Internet data paths, not t= he way the we might align those paths with future needs.

There is no= Internet equivalent of what 3GPP does, and continues to do for wireless ne= tworks. Nor the continuous evolution process that the IEEE has with Etherne= t. We work on the basis that the data plane we designed many years ago is u= nchangeable except in maters of relatively minor detail such as changing th= e length of an IP address.

>
> Most of the problems the lo= ng history of IP replacements (including the ones I=E2=80=99ve worked on, a= nd continue to work on) over the years have identified aren=E2=80=99t reall= y technical, or at least are not technical in tractably addressable ways (t= he speed of light and the fact that all operations one can do in a network = have strictly nonnegative latency are problems as old and hard as the non e= xistence of perpetual motion machines). Rather, they are issues of inter or= ganizational relationships and business models: rethinking inter domain rou= ting or end to end QoS require an alignment of incentives that seldom emerg= es organically in a multi operator network.

The point we make in the= draft, and is one we need to develop in future versions, is that there is = an evolution in the Internet architecture that make it feasible to implemen= t change in a way that has hitherto not been possible. Furthermore there is= an opportunity for an economic model that supports such change.

&g= t; If you=E2=80=99d like the IAB to address these authoritatively, you can = talk to your friendly local NomCom about appointing some economists, but it= =E2=80=99s not clear to me that that=E2=80=99s the best business for the IA= B to be in.

I had not thought of economists per se, but now you ment= ion it that might be a good idea,

We, the IETF do need to understand= the economic and, for that matter, governmental (taken from the perspectiv= e of a global exert rather than a particular government) impacts of our tec= hnical decisions and it would make sense for them to be part of the long te= rm oversight role the IAB is chartered to take.

- Stewart

>= ;
> Cheers, Brian
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
&= gt;> On 21 Mar 2020, at 12:11, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <= br>>> =EF=BB=BF...and also when the IAB fails to drive the changes ne= eded in the Internet to support the evolving applications requirements or t= o properly track the changes in the Internet itself.
>>
>&g= t; I did kind of think that the IAB would have had a 10 to 20 year evolutio= n plan front and centre of its thinking, but I have never seen any evidence= that it regards that to be one of its core responsibilities.
>> <= br>>> I also thought that the IAB ought to be an enabler of this thou= ght process by encouraging input form others, but rather than that it seems= to be a tightly closed community.
>>
>> ... just saying= .
>>
>> - Stewart
>>
>>
>>&= gt; On 20 Mar 2020, at 23:15, Tony Li <tony1athome@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>&g= t;
>>> And I hate to see the IAB stomp on discussions.
>= >>
>>> T
>>>
>>>
>>&g= t;>> On Mar 20, 2020, at 4:09 PM, Melinda Shore <melinda.shore@nomountain.net> wrote:<= br>>>>>
>>>> On 3/20/20 3:03 PM, Stephen Farrel= l wrote:
>>>>> AFAIK this is basically an initiative driv= en by one or
>>>>> a small set of vendors. It is not an I= AB activity and
>>>>> this list is. ISTM somewhat cheeky = to cast this as if
>>>>> it were sort-of "official&q= uot; by sending ICS invites to
>>>>> this list and sugges= ting this list be used for follow
>>>>> ups. I'm sayi= ng that as an individual and have not
>>>>> asked other I= AB folks what they think, but again
>>>>> speaking person= ally, I'd be much happier if people
>>>>> and organis= ations had a bit more style.
>>>>
>>>> That = was close to my reaction, as well.
>>>>
>>>>= Melinda
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> M= elinda Shore
>>>> melinda.shore@nomountain.net
>>>>
>>>= > Software longa, hardware brevis
>>>>
>>>&g= t; _______________________________________________
>>>> Arch= itecture-discuss mailing list
>>>> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org
>>>&g= t; h= ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss
>>&g= t;
>>> _______________________________________________
>= >> Architecture-discuss mailing list
>>> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org
>&= gt;> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss
>&= gt;
>> _______________________________________________
>>= ; Architecture-discuss mailing list
>> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org
>> https://www= .ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss
>

_______= ________________________________________
Architecture-discuss mailing li= st
Architecture-discuss= @ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss=
--000000000000c089e605a1714dbe-- From nobody Sun Mar 22 08:36:39 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 187543A0888 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 08:36:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NOr8KV7qIm0I for ; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 08:36:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from puck.nether.net (puck.nether.net [IPv6:2001:418:3f4::5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A9E5B3A0878 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 08:36:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by puck.nether.net (Postfix, from userid 162) id CC1CB540310; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 11:36:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 11:36:34 -0400 From: Jared Mauch To: Stewart Bryant Cc: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" , Toerless Eckert , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20200322153634.GB1260110@puck.nether.net> References: <2A2794D3-25C5-4259-AF5D-098671A786C7@trammell.ch> <0B3B71EE-F5BB-45F0-84EA-ECF454921648@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <0B3B71EE-F5BB-45F0-84EA-ECF454921648@gmail.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] On the (f)utility of prescriptive architecture X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 15:36:37 -0000 On Sun, Mar 22, 2020 at 09:19:14AM +0000, Stewart Bryant wrote: > > > > On 21 Mar 2020, at 15:21, Brian Trammell (IETF) wrote: > > > > Hi Stewart, all, > > > > I’ll leave the question of the appropriateness or this side meeting announcement to the side, but I did want to respond to the notion that the IAB should have some top-down master plan for the Internet, and that the lack of such is evidence that the IAB is not properly tracking changes in the Internet itself. > > > > Architectural guidance from the IAB has admittedly been somewhat meta: 5218, 6709, and 8170 on how protocols themselves emerge and evolve in a multi-protocol, multi-implementor, multi-operator environment; 6973, 7754, and 7624 on privacy, access control, and confidentiality concerns of protocols up the stack; 8546 and 8558 on the implications additional confidentiality on the wire has on transport design and operations, and so on. Each of these efforts has been in parallel to related efforts in the IETF (I would argue that the design and deployment of QUIC, for instance, is influenced, in some cases deeply, by all of the cited RFCs). > > > Maybe I have missed it, but I have not seen any IAB work with the community on the de facto fundamental restructuring of the Internet into a series of walled gardens with best effort global traffic on a path to become a minority interest. > > For those that have not noticed it, I recommend reading Geoff Hustons work on the death of transit. This points to a huge elephant that is sitting on the middle of the room that we completely ignore. > > Even if the IAB is not able to directly design the architecture of the Internet, it ought to at least be the body that reminds us all what it actually is, and provides some insight into both the opportunities and the threats. > I live much of this daily and am working with our internal teams to cope with the changes in the industry on a regular basis. We ourselves built our own backbone to get around regional networking issues that many are aware of. It's often in our economic advantage to take our fate into our own hands for a number of reasons: 1) networks have no incentive to ensure they have off-network connectivity 2) networks have no incentive to improve off-network performance 3) networks have no incentive to lower costs, or can be immune to what might be otherwise market pressures. 4) content providers and delivery networks have paying customers who outsource fixing or working around the problem. 5) private networks have better performance than public networks 6) private networks are harder to measure than public networks 7) we can understand the properties of our own private network and deploy non-standard fixes to our problems (eg: SR, BGP-LU) that have zero place in public networks 8) costs are significantly lower in a private network vs public For these reasons amongst others, it's been in my employers best interest to privatize traffic, but this has consequences that impact existing models. While Geoff is often right IMO, he's also wrong. Transit is dead, long live transit. You may reach your VPS with a single network hop from your broadband service directly peering with your cloud provider, they still rely on transit services to reach networks they do not interconnect with. We have the same situations and often hear from providers when we start using paid transit links that can't handle the load due to #1 or #2 above. I have observations about how global players do better than what I call the super-regional players (eg: multi-market incumbents that do not span country boundaries). If someone exists in many countries or continents, they are more likely to be well suited for traffic vs someone who owns a market. Building last mile is expensive, I can tell you this first hand as my side job is running a small FTTH network. It's also very rewarding if you can adapt to the local market conditions. I expect that my perspective on many of these things contributed to why my virtual badge has a dot on it starting later this week. It's something I care about and suspect I'll bring this perspective to the table in a way others perhaps haven't. - Jared From nobody Sun Mar 22 15:09:43 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78E9B3A0774 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 15:09:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mok_kbvL3FDc for ; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 15:09:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 50EBE3A05A6 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 15:09:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48887BE20; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 22:09:37 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JeggMrxVVAkN; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 22:09:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E6144BDCF; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 22:09:32 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1584914973; bh=LJJdStsLYQJLtO/YtvtXZngdbqr54HAPmZHm5PcLrDw=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=qXbPza5VBcyj8l6koYVPwwQ10UioOhzhs2OJYSCVCzKtwvpxOfpgzpq6zEt+4vbqz IWdP9U7hyeOxCwwDmngXQhoF+ydxNyabQ/jjbSEuj4+uBCDkVTosiKJtEHxfBqfHTr giuy9MOwvVoXwz6H2rvyXF5nuzuIZEEjdi5p+lm0= To: Stewart Bryant , "Brian Trammell (IETF)" Cc: Toerless Eckert , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" References: <2A2794D3-25C5-4259-AF5D-098671A786C7@trammell.ch> <0B3B71EE-F5BB-45F0-84EA-ECF454921648@gmail.com> From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; 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Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0B3B71EE-F5BB-45F0-84EA-ECF454921648@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="HLPN2kTZmhBuHNH9ztazN1HDwNybOQWr9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] On the (f)utility of prescriptive architecture X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 22:09:42 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --HLPN2kTZmhBuHNH9ztazN1HDwNybOQWr9 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="6yqqdM3DhA9kTlK64sycg6w6IPOHMY0fi"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Stewart Bryant , "Brian Trammell (IETF)" Cc: Toerless Eckert , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Message-ID: Subject: Re: On the (f)utility of prescriptive architecture References: <2A2794D3-25C5-4259-AF5D-098671A786C7@trammell.ch> <0B3B71EE-F5BB-45F0-84EA-ECF454921648@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <0B3B71EE-F5BB-45F0-84EA-ECF454921648@gmail.com> --6yqqdM3DhA9kTlK64sycg6w6IPOHMY0fi Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------7C7778FE3C48878E7517458B" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------7C7778FE3C48878E7517458B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Stewart, On 22/03/2020 09:19, Stewart Bryant wrote: >=20 > From my perspective, and it is one that we articulate in our draft, Just as a reminder, that's [1]. I had a read. I'm unconvinced by a lot of the argument (many of the assertions made have no backing) but do agree that there are topics there worthy of open discussion, where participants are highly likely to arrive with very different starting points. We saw exactly that when we had earlier discussions about whether applications would or would not want to expose information to the network. I don't see how the kind of set-piece side-meeting is likely to progress such discussion in a useful direction myself. I also agree with Brian that the idea of the IAB, or of any single vendor, or of any international organisation, setting out the architecture that'll be followed by all of us in a decade's time is... more than unconvincing. Cheers, S. 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X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ1helevDqIW+hKTvPs1Go813bXchT9zuNag15Qp2uRCiw+zgcKh WCGWsd1Rt0tNsB6qR9ZBISa4ppb+47cBdRkp5Vo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vvM76sQ+4s03rDegF3SNSxAgY85EAmpOk8MTMlEK4+31nO+Ia84gRfp/Ukm2WLv6ubqM4BuScUCD3UYWGlFtXA= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:6358:: with SMTP id y24mr19668160otk.49.1584983203359; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 10:06:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2A2794D3-25C5-4259-AF5D-098671A786C7@trammell.ch> <0B3B71EE-F5BB-45F0-84EA-ECF454921648@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <0B3B71EE-F5BB-45F0-84EA-ECF454921648@gmail.com> From: Ted Hardie Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 10:06:18 -0700 Message-ID: To: Stewart Bryant Cc: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" , Toerless Eckert , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000cfae6905a188a8ce" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] On the (f)utility of prescriptive architecture X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 17:06:46 -0000 --000000000000cfae6905a188a8ce Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Stewart, On Sun, Mar 22, 2020 at 2:20 AM Stewart Bryant wrote: > > Maybe I have missed it, but I have not seen any IAB work with the > community on the de facto fundamental restructuring of the Internet into a > series of walled gardens with best effort global traffic on a path to > become a minority interest. > > You might want to take a look at the background material for the DEDR workshop: https://www.iab.org/activities/workshops/dedr-workshop/ . It points to some of the previous work of the IAB in defining successful protocols and successful protocol transitions, then tackles the question of "What happens when the environment the protocol was designed for changes?". Consolidation was a big part of both the input documents and that discussion, and Geoff and others focused on what that means for modern networks. model-t and chirp are both discussions that emerged from that. regards, Ted Hardie > > --000000000000cfae6905a188a8ce Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Stewart,

On Sun, Mar 22, 2020 at 2:20 AM= Stewart Bryant <stewart.bry= ant@gmail.com> wrote:

Maybe I have missed it, but I have not seen any IAB work with the community= on the de facto fundamental restructuring of the Internet into a series of= walled gardens with best effort global traffic on a path to become a minor= ity interest.


You might want to take a look at the b= ackground material for the DEDR workshop:=C2=A0https://www.iab.org/activities/work= shops/dedr-workshop/=C2=A0.=C2=A0 It points to some of the previous wor= k of the IAB in defining successful protocols and successful=C2=A0protocol = transitions, then tackles the question of "What happens when the envir= onment the protocol was designed for changes?".=C2=A0 Consolidation wa= s a big part of both the input documents and that discussion, and Geoff and= others focused on what that means for modern=C2=A0networks.=C2=A0 model-t = and chirp are both discussions that emerged from that.
=C2=A0
regards,

Ted Hardie

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Mon, 23 Mar 2020 18:32:08 +0000 From: Geoff Huston To: Stewart Bryant CC: Toerless Eckert , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" , Ted Hardie Thread-Topic: [arch-d] On the (f)utility of prescriptive architecture Thread-Index: AQHV/5R4RejsgnkCdEK5tFpC2FzgEahUVr8AgAIU1ACAABf0AA== Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 18:32:09 +0000 Message-ID: <9E72A649-0C61-492D-934A-C07873863056@apnic.net> References: <2A2794D3-25C5-4259-AF5D-098671A786C7@trammell.ch> <0B3B71EE-F5BB-45F0-84EA-ECF454921648@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-AU, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-clientproxiedby: SY2PR01CA0031.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:10c6:1:15::19) To HK0PR04MB2756.apcprd04.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:203:34::10) x-originating-ip: [2001:44b8:110b:5100:9d79:b61f:ade9:c4f9] x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=gih@apnic.net; x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 934e8802-deec-4fb4-85be-08d7cf587f06 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: HK0PR04MB2994: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; 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charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <3204C5EBB63A6843B74AC39DCA34FEDA@apcprd04.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: apnic.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 934e8802-deec-4fb4-85be-08d7cf587f06 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 23 Mar 2020 18:32:09.3918 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 127d8d0d-7ccf-473d-ab09-6e44ad752ded X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: YBdnSGi7Snob6fJXBBol8hsx0WxJORWm5hs0U59dUvWWSbawnREEyjBmq3ZofAza X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HK0PR04MB2994 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] On the (f)utility of prescriptive architecture X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 18:32:22 -0000 PiBPbiAyNCBNYXIgMjAyMCwgYXQgNDowNiBhbSwgVGVkIEhhcmRpZSA8dGVkLmlldGZAZ21haWwu Y29tPiB3cm90ZToNCj4gDQo+IEhpIFN0ZXdhcnQsDQo+IA0KPiBPbiBTdW4sIE1hciAyMiwgMjAy MCBhdCAyOjIwIEFNIFN0ZXdhcnQgQnJ5YW50IDxzdGV3YXJ0LmJyeWFudEBnbWFpbC5jb20+IHdy b3RlOg0KPiANCj4gTWF5YmUgSSBoYXZlIG1pc3NlZCBpdCwgYnV0IEkgaGF2ZSBub3Qgc2VlbiBh bnkgSUFCIHdvcmsgd2l0aCB0aGUgY29tbXVuaXR5IG9uIHRoZSBkZSBmYWN0byBmdW5kYW1lbnRh bCByZXN0cnVjdHVyaW5nIG9mIHRoZSBJbnRlcm5ldCBpbnRvIGEgc2VyaWVzIG9mIHdhbGxlZCBn YXJkZW5zIHdpdGggYmVzdCBlZmZvcnQgZ2xvYmFsIHRyYWZmaWMgb24gYSBwYXRoIHRvIGJlY29t ZSBhIG1pbm9yaXR5IGludGVyZXN0Lg0KPiANCj4gDQo+IFlvdSBtaWdodCB3YW50IHRvIHRha2Ug YSBsb29rIGF0IHRoZSBiYWNrZ3JvdW5kIG1hdGVyaWFsIGZvciB0aGUgREVEUiB3b3Jrc2hvcDog aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWFiLm9yZy9hY3Rpdml0aWVzL3dvcmtzaG9wcy9kZWRyLXdvcmtzaG9wLyAu ICBJdCBwb2ludHMgdG8gc29tZSBvZiB0aGUgcHJldmlvdXMgd29yayBvZiB0aGUgSUFCIGluIGRl ZmluaW5nIHN1Y2Nlc3NmdWwgcHJvdG9jb2xzIGFuZCBzdWNjZXNzZnVsIHByb3RvY29sIHRyYW5z aXRpb25zLCB0aGVuIHRhY2tsZXMgdGhlIHF1ZXN0aW9uIG9mICJXaGF0IGhhcHBlbnMgd2hlbiB0 aGUgZW52aXJvbm1lbnQgdGhlIHByb3RvY29sIHdhcyBkZXNpZ25lZCBmb3IgY2hhbmdlcz8iLiAg Q29uc29saWRhdGlvbiB3YXMgYSBiaWcgcGFydCBvZiBib3RoIHRoZSBpbnB1dCBkb2N1bWVudHMg YW5kIHRoYXQgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiwgYW5kIEdlb2ZmIGFuZCBvdGhlcnMgZm9jdXNlZCBvbiB3aGF0 IHRoYXQgbWVhbnMgZm9yIG1vZGVybiBuZXR3b3Jrcy4gIG1vZGVsLXQgYW5kIGNoaXJwIGFyZSBi b3RoIGRpc2N1c3Npb25zIHRoYXQgZW1lcmdlZCBmcm9tIHRoYXQuDQoNClRvIGNoaW1lIG9uIGlu IFRlZOKAmXMgbm90ZSwgSSBmb3VuZCB0aGUgREVEUiB3b3Jrc2hvcCB0byBiZSBpbmNyZWRpYmx5 IGludGVyZXN0aW5nIC0gbXkgdGhvdWdodHMgYWZ0ZXIgYXR0ZW5kaW5nIGl0IGNhbiBiZSBmb3Vu ZCBhdCBodHRwOi8vd3d3LnBvdGFyb28ubmV0L2lzcGNvbC8yMDE5LTA2L2RlZHIucGRmDQoNCkkg YW0gbm90IHN1cmUgd2hhdCBvciB3aGVyZSB5b3UgYXJlIGhlYWRpbmcgd2l0aCB5b3VyIGNvbW1l bnQgU3Rld2FydC4gWWVzIHdoYXQgd2UgY2FsbCB0aGUgSW50ZXJuZXQgaGFzIGNoYW5nZWQgcmFk aWNhbGx5IG92ZXIgdGhlIHBhc3QgZGVjYWRlIGluIHRoZSBsaWdodCBvZiB0aGUgaW5leG9yYWJs ZSBleHBhbnNpb24gb2YgQ0ROcyAoaHR0cDovL3d3dy5wb3Rhcm9vLm5ldC9pc3Bjb2wvMjAxNi0x MC94dHJhbnNpdC5wZGYpLiBCdXQgd2hhdCBzdHJpa2VzIG1lIGFzIGFuIGltcG9ydGFudCBvYnNl cnZhdGlvbiBpcyB0aGF0IHdlIGhhdmUgbm90IHNoaWZ0ZWQgdG8gbmV3IHByb3RvY29scyBhbmQg ZW50aXJlbHkgbm92ZWwgaW5mcmFzdHJ1Y3R1cmUgdG8gc3VwcG9ydCB0aGlzIGRpZmZlcmVudCBm b3JtIG9mIHNlcnZpY2UgYmVoYXZpb3VyLiBJbiBmYWN0IHRoaXMgZW50aXJlIHNoaWZ0IHVzZXMg dGhlIHNhbWUgdGVjaG5vbG9neSBiYXNlIGFuZCB0aGUgc2FtZSBpbmZyYXN0cnVjdHVyZSBiYXNl LiBBbnlvbmUgZWxzZSB3b3VsZCBjYWxsIHRoYXQga2luZCBvZiBpbmNyZWRpYmx5IGZsZXhpYmxl IGFyY2hpdGVjdHVyZSB0aGF0IHByZXNlcnZlcyB0aGUgZXNzZW50aWFsIGludmVzdG1lbnRzIGlu IHRlY2hub2xvZ3kgYW5kIGluZnJhc3RydWN0dXJlIGFuIGFtYXppbmcgc3VjY2VzcyBpbiBhcmNo aXRlY3R1cmUuIA0KDQpUaGUgdGVsZXBob25lIG5ldHdvcmsgd2FzIGEgb25lLXRyaWNrIHBvbnkg LSB5b3Ugc3Bva2UgaW50byBpdCAtIGFuZCB0aGUgbmV0d29yayB3YXMgYnVpbHQgb24gdGhlIHBo eXNpY3MgYW5kIHNvY2lhbCBiZWhhdmlvdXJzIG9mIHRoZSB3YXkgcGVvcGxlIHNwZWFrIHRvIGVh Y2ggb3RoZXIuIFdlIG9yaWdpbmFsbHkgY29uc3RydWN0ZWQgdGhlIEludGVybmV0IGFzIGEgY29t cHV0ZXIgZmFjc2ltaWxlIG9mIHRoZSB0ZWxlcGhvbmUgbmV0d29yaywgYW5kIGZvciBhIHNob3J0 IHBlcmlvZCBjb21wdXRlcnMgdXNlZCB0aGUgbmV0d29yayBpbiBhIG1hbm5lciBzaW1pbGFyIHRv IHRoZSB0ZWxlcGhvbnkgbmV0d29yay4gQnV0IHdlIGFkYXB0ZWQgYW5kIGxlYXJuZWQgYW5kIHRo ZSBJbnRlcm5ldCB0b2RheSBpcyBhIHZlcnkgZGlmZmVyZW50IGJlYXN0LiBCdXQgd2hhdCBuZXZl ciBjZWFzZXMgdG8gYW1hemUgbWUgaXMgdGhhdCB0aGUgZXNzZW50aWFsIGFyY2hpdGVjdHVyYWwg ZWxlbWVudHMgd2UgdXNlZCBhdCB0aGUgc3RhcnQgYXJlIHdpdGggdXMgdG9kYXkgLSBlZGdlLWNl bnRyaWMgYW5kIGRlY2VudHJhbGlzZWQgY29udHJvbCBtZWNoYW5pc21zLCBkZWNvdXBsZWQgYmVo YXZpb3VycywgYW5kIHNvIG9uLiBTbyB3aGF04oCZcyB5b3VyIGlzc3VlIGhlcmUgU3Rld2FydD8g V2hhdCBpcyB0aGUgX2FyY2hpdGVjdHVyYWxfIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gdGhhdCB3ZSBhcmUgbWlzc2lu ZyBoZXJlPw0KDQpyZWdhcmRzLA0KDQpHZW9mZg0KDQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KDQoNCg0K From nobody Mon Mar 23 18:51:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AC7D3A0ECC for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 18:51:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.65 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.65 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bSC3QJneO4DZ for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 18:51:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B8893A0ECB for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 18:51:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9914B548049; Tue, 24 Mar 2020 02:51:11 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 9235B440040; Tue, 24 Mar 2020 02:51:11 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 02:51:11 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Stephen Farrell Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20200324015111.GB30574@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <20200320223801.GU30574@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <8e49e49b-3e56-ea18-7faf-75623f14f548@cs.tcd.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <8e49e49b-3e56-ea18-7faf-75623f14f548@cs.tcd.ie> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Invite to webex side meeting 03/25, 8:00 AM on "New IP Architecture and Protocols". X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 01:51:21 -0000 Stephen, 1) Wrt to side-meeting announcement: In a similar way as you had planned for a side-meeting for Chirp, we had planned an inofficial side meeting to offer discussing this drafts topic until corona hit. So we just tried to set up a a virtual inofficial side meeting as good as possible without any IETF online collaboration tool support for such inofficial side meetings. 2) Wrt to discussion on a list vs. side meeting: A lot of new -00 work to the IETF is first brought in front of a fitting in-person IETF audience before being dicussed at length on lists, especially when its not incremental work. In our case, this work was predated by the IETF106 inofficial side meeting, after which we started to write down the -00 draft and tried to find the best community to discuss this with. Everybody told us to use architecture-discuss@ief.org. 3) Wrt to architecture-discuss@ietf.org being an IAB activity: https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss ""The architecture-discuss list serves as a technical discussion forum for all members of the IETF community that are interested in larger architectural issues. ... "" I do not see IAB being mentioned in the text at all. Maybe you want to refine that text if the list is assumed to be subject to specific IAB regulations not described yet. I would hope it is not, because the current scope definition is IMHO very good. 4) Wrt. ICS invite "cheeky to cast .. sort-of official" I think its clear now, that this ICS was a tragic accident by a third party. I specifically DID NOT include an ICS because it clearly would be too invasive on a list like architecture-discuss!! I can also not remember (maybe i am wrong) that this list is used for official IAB announcements / meeting invites either. 5) Wrt. "a bit more style" Always happy to improve my collaboration style. Let me know what is missing given above explanations. Cheers Toerless On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 11:03:42PM +0000, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Hmm, > > On 20/03/2020 22:38, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > We suggest to direct followup discussions to > > architcture-discuss@ietf.org if you think it is of interest to the > > IETF. > AFAIK this is basically an initiative driven by one or > a small set of vendors. It is not an IAB activity and > this list is. ISTM somewhat cheeky to cast this as if > it were sort-of "official" by sending ICS invites to > this list and suggesting this list be used for follow > ups. I'm saying that as an individual and have not > asked other IAB folks what they think, but again > speaking personally, I'd be much happier if people > and organisations had a bit more style. > > S. pub RSA 4096/7B172BEA 2017-12-22 Stephen Farrell (2017) > sub RSA 4096/36CB8BB6 2017-12-22 > From nobody Mon Mar 23 19:22:54 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90B2B3A0E65 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 19:22:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.65 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.65 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7Su9nXUoIeJg for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 19:22:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 308523A0E6A for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 19:22:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48CE4548048; Tue, 24 Mar 2020 03:22:42 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 40026440040; Tue, 24 Mar 2020 03:22:42 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 03:22:42 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Carsten Bormann Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20200324022242.GC30574@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <20200320223801.GU30574@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <8A117DA8-AAD7-4563-89EE-87B40D9CFC00@tzi.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <8A117DA8-AAD7-4563-89EE-87B40D9CFC00@tzi.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Invite to webex side meeting 03/25, 8:00 AM on "New IP Architecture and Protocols". X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 02:22:52 -0000 Thanks, Carsten. Replaced PST with PDT in etherpad. Should i use PT, or just give up and only use UTC exclusively ? *sigh* ;-) There does not seem to be a good way for other folks to find the page ietf107replacements page you created, or is it linked anywhere ? Would be great if other side-meetings where also encouraged to schedule virtually, doesn't have to be during the actual IETF week itself. Cheers Toerless On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 05:56:48PM +0100, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 2020-03-20, at 23:38, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > > > Time: 03/25/2020, 08:00 - 09:00 AM PST [1500 - 1600 UTC] > > This information is broken (US is not on PST any more). > > In any case, I have copied a pointer into > > https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/ietf107replacements > > which you can edit once you have figured out when you want to run that meeting. > > Grüße, Carsten > > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss From nobody Wed Mar 25 00:33:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C3F03A003A for ; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 00:33:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.787 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.787 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, T_SPF_TEMPERROR=0.01, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 07:33:51 -0000 --_000_AM0PR08MB3716CB61356179E5F095DA45FACE0AM0PR08MB3716eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry that I haven't followed this list too closely. Because I have a meeti= ng invite in my calendar I was wondering what the topic of discussion is. There is a link in the invite, namely https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeti= ng/wiki/106sidemeetings, but it does not cont= ain an agenda either. Ciao Hannes IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. --_000_AM0PR08MB3716CB61356179E5F095DA45FACE0AM0PR08MB3716eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Sorry that I haven’t followed this list too cl= osely. Because I have a meeting invite in my calendar I was wondering what = the topic of discussion is.

There is a link in the invite, namely http= s://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/106sidemeetings, but it does not contain an agenda either.

 

Ciao

Hannes

 

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. --_000_AM0PR08MB3716CB61356179E5F095DA45FACE0AM0PR08MB3716eurp_-- From nobody Sat Mar 28 11:13:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81F103A0A68 for ; Sat, 28 Mar 2020 11:13:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.697 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.697 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=elandsys.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lUzSVru7kQ2j for ; Sat, 28 Mar 2020 11:13:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.elandsys.com (mx.elandsys.com [162.213.2.210]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A80F53A0A1B for ; Sat, 28 Mar 2020 11:13:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DESKTOP-K6V9C2L.elandsys.com ([102.116.20.192]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.15.2/8.14.5) with ESMTPSA id 02SIDIVI019704 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 28 Mar 2020 11:13:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1585419210; x=1585505610; i=@elandsys.com; bh=LUz3SHIJTVaOeVgMErhwlUYxr5y4lgARshKrheXk2H4=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=X6lnQd2K4g9tfixtYBznhOOqCYhlxeKBrdEnROCA3Z3sEAtwrD5hFYKEKef6NTjMg 4wXyheiDrY0IstkiGDCBulxs69sYvII95jJdZJakMAoWh2OwR1wYMvN/GPXC1nI9Px w6Mpy3h06o9/Ld1ftxerkiTTjLDox7WgN+rqHyiE= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20200328104353.0bd02d68@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 11:09:54 -0700 To: Jari Arkko , architecture-discuss@iab.org From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: References: <158515861056.31362.1577145055370523251@ietfa.amsl.com> <06f0ef99-728e-1b41-0596-7b7286c29ead@comcast.net> <2375d191-dd72-3e09-6417-5bcae5ba1d4b@comcast.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] [removed] to Serve as RFC Editor Future Development Program Chair X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 18:13:40 -0000 Hi Jari, [I moved the thread off ietf@] At 04:03 PM 27-03-2020, Jari Arkko wrote: >We didn't get to discuss this on voice in the plenary. But the >process is as Ted outlined it; call for volunteers for a task, >written & interview interaction, community feedback, IAB >consideration and then selection. I don't think we should go into >specific questions about particular persons and selections. I will >say that we were of course lucky with excellent volunteers and we're >very happy to have [removed] serve. > >I personally see the role of chairing this program as primarily >focused on managing this discussion and helping the group come to >consensus. As the program is an open program, I'd love to see >participation of all those in the community who have background in >publishing and editing. I would like to thank Ted and you for responding on the thread. I have two questions. Before getting into that, I'll mention that I am not interested in the personnel aspect unless it is directly relevant to the discussion, i.e. why was Person X chosen instead of Person Y. The usage of "community" in the text quoted above is ambiguous. Does it mean "IETF community" or something else? Please see the last sentence in the message at https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/MoGjjZyadcTB3BT7mFIgsqUhUtc/ What was the considerations against selecting more than one Chair? Regards, S. Moonesamy From nobody Mon Mar 30 09:05:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DB743A1862 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 09:05:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wG3713-8yq8E for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 09:05:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x32b.google.com (mail-ot1-x32b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B31EE3A1889 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 09:05:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x32b.google.com with SMTP id a49so18570073otc.11 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 09:05:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=OgLPlggLO6i2D7jTyYfD7VMp9lXQcJlv8SXkMIGpcEQ=; b=PNhbrj7zmGxxT8/yyCkzWqdYfjDCAcMPp2lfx7RSBjX9sgb34WkV54pg3raeEPBybn n3J91GJjK+GwoZpa+nSE9+7auJB4lkxJP4yxsug6cgi/NyRnayaTLZRrM6mhU4b3D8dQ 9uOHFk+kzS8SX6tTHsZHiNFATa5g/RAv5N7bQomkxBbysh2bsxw0hILisipGmcfGk8tY 2ImAzqtaml47SpsvMUqGDk2uM+RnQBtcD/S+Bmk17abdxTn+PaxSPYeFSZgH7n9ng5cL 5IML5CFK84Qy6XGkBPK0WCo11OmJLMB2Y3ETyq3zdq0MoHBxeXDFxPkZSBDntocduF6Y eO3A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=OgLPlggLO6i2D7jTyYfD7VMp9lXQcJlv8SXkMIGpcEQ=; b=jQwy9T/g0cQic6uc7OF0UmqTvKa7OW5ngHqiw8wSJeJFg4HoKYkkp4hRV4PzueOmZ5 fHFMiJRBGa/2ZUR2zANUeV9Mgt9Z753r88Y4RG9FNdk3yalqmJpoyUv6j6FgsI2RcxbF lfqvXx0tLzB+4T0hOrOuUjFLptCjDkZ8Txq4NIK0fYIBen3qh5tL57QLZhEy2D3B//4H gSoKqCD2Xf6L3FMFW4hlnxjJkbP9AywkKql87z5LqOp9pOmkK78FbVi7OtSkKFwAr77R q+Cni1itpmDbHp9yjMg+cDL223lUGEtGVS1UHwutAv91HlseCY4tGZBnSkez6DTc1CUg bUIw== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ0OVFkdlgIW7FPo9wnJXTnVYmFSdRV9PFy//VCb00+J0yeJDBMD y1PgJrIuKA3cXm0vMiLUhy/jqJc6nVN8j65k2Qz3eQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vs4jhjbw+N4g/y/TrY6xJabbQomuSjsI3XodPRaZwHlSXztXV1cOvNuWJE3EZ7vbmvK+HTAoDcaerh1v9d+wEg= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:798f:: with SMTP id h15mr9710485otm.284.1585584324747; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 09:05:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6830:13ce:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 09:05:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 23:05:24 +0700 Message-ID: To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000070321905a2149efc" Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] A Course on Network Engineering by the Internet Society X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 16:05:32 -0000 --00000000000070321905a2149efc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear architecture-discuss, An update on "Network Engineering" released by the Internet Society --this information I formerly got from Kevin Chege, Internet Society. Online Course: Introduction to Network OperationsUNIX/Linux, Networking & Domain Name System (DNS)The deadline for applications is 2 April 2020. https://www.internetsociety.org/learning/network-operations/ Regard, Guntur Wiseno Putra --00000000000070321905a2149efc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear architecture-discuss,


An update on &= quot;Network Engineering" released by the Internet Society --this info= rmation I formerly got from=C2=A0Kevin Chege, Internet Society.


Online Course: Introduction to Network Operations

UNIX/Linux, Networking & Domain Name = System (DNS)

The deadline fo= r applications is 2 April 2020.


<= div>
Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra
--00000000000070321905a2149efc-- From nobody Mon Mar 30 11:10:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4DE73A0C9E for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 11:10:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.004 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.004 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LbtnD5a6Q5Xi for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 11:10:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vs25.mail.saunalahti.fi (vs25.mail.saunalahti.fi [62.142.117.202]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8DCAE3A0C9C for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 11:10:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vs25.mail.saunalahti.fi (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vs25.mail.saunalahti.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id 179F920C9A; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 21:10:24 +0300 (EEST) Received: from gw03.mail.saunalahti.fi (gw03.mail.saunalahti.fi [195.197.172.111]) by vs25.mail.saunalahti.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C84F20D80; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 21:10:24 +0300 (EEST) Received: from eggert.org (unknown [62.248.255.8]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: eggert@elisanet.fi) by gw03.mail.saunalahti.fi (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9625120003; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 21:10:21 +0300 (EEST) Received: from stickers.eggert.org (stickers.eggert.org [172.24.110.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B908484E50B; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 21:10:14 +0300 (EEST) From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: <1FC51F38-54F0-4C54-91D3-B7B053642BEE@eggert.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B43FFD01-511F-48A3-924C-6C3D94145983"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 21:10:14 +0300 In-Reply-To: Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org To: Guntur Wiseno Putra References: X-MailScanner-ID: B908484E50B.A2CAA X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] A Course on Network Engineering by the Internet Society X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 18:10:28 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B43FFD01-511F-48A3-924C-6C3D94145983 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, would you please stop posting random things to this list? Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_B43FFD01-511F-48A3-924C-6C3D94145983 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAl6CNgYACgkQVLXDCb9w wVePLQ//cZRbc/hwxunbgDvDHaMzPOE0/YssciD+awvFCcsn34K4eSzBFhlHUdE0 ZNVJZTM69Aqc9EdPGdTHpngo5b+gZ0cddvXykK25MJyRtrBbD+2Id4axSNE6WFWP xfrJlKm+FIQotcaPn9+61rwk1N7lnKKiHYqzHtfmQBIBJcu8QrVffy+0dekwlRDO qhaDgAa6KXL4xzkHPvX2i0e3RbJr7FOfoh5+DHN+bzuT27asVJ6E66kr7Q00EzVw vwQmr9pZiHKdpawkIoclP34unGfuBGFWQdrJcS6NhQoz5OjdN61xWnS/Fs7YeO66 ZnID4+oHqQoJtspTQPDNEiOo2sH/918HxV3psZgpUFnouArxpAJwO4NaON7O38Kt XXBVKpqaxWB33SpE4FJbaPwzzwV3tEaswyOQwyL73l9kde61jyqai2EeSNsG5r/l uuVxYVf6C28eO6Lf9Ybj0kaT3NggCmYU84jknh+aBvtRv/J5u2XLqc3QFtOnOM4v xILBOGXogh2XZb9uN/dY1o4e+QXRw64AlVh2/c/rzd2hxGm3oXeeasDcglT2XyRI zKiW57WJoKRsF4agj6TkttL1le/dXXKf6ug+oLCugPQvkIuktonQQFYccP495P7c yurzBWdsYLgfNNx5ygAheN3kuWBjaAKxh8mWbn3Np0+xQIMcck0= =GrJ7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_B43FFD01-511F-48A3-924C-6C3D94145983-- From nobody Mon Mar 30 19:56:14 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DF0B3A192C for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 19:56:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U0JAZ64ljBuY for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 19:56:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x329.google.com (mail-ot1-x329.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::329]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9624F3A192B for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 19:56:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x329.google.com with SMTP id a6so20511761otb.10 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 19:56:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=8HUNxUHH2lh0dRuIRzoNQsp2VFpHS/dXXCPd/7aJ/VQ=; b=f30JJoJun65eGyFGlbDyfd6Pa9h3pGNYfiWrv9f3dhPRvHZSokIPHl+Klpebhdlxct 0LUvHlD6SChQcMpUXv30Dhwcizcz5k4mC+ulECyQ31gg4i9/ff4/g/ACcW4JIPOWPEDp JxJR4RPUzDxWV94wNmoFcYZoZ6Hygw1cRRELLGQjSIRI/nZ6cnm5K4WGuFbcs7eW8+03 aBpbsYxPWsf6FknZUIxzuVpU2qMKTHtLtWC/gDkRgaSzezUkoO5/jb+yiHHMp9wR4YrR 5EltetOYDZU7a31+KctcFMe2NWEwxCcwDWHGaZlzXJ1sxjwpGjjVZ2EauQp6yQzBhptv efFw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=8HUNxUHH2lh0dRuIRzoNQsp2VFpHS/dXXCPd/7aJ/VQ=; b=mAIe0Y6l2wdTJgVRbsFBftn7cLq+SREQ9fgEb1Z8mNDGBbfUl2lyZI5DqfebzxzhZn FrEgT4DCldZhbeywqiS83H3gZFnvm8tlvd2Z6h8dOjSegLO2R6UXsZuWCM/KE0D1RkM1 eR2baawDOTrr7zi79f3W1jwFO3TgPIYDu7KieT3mp+p0NVgcRHxrCwXzkKXcrOdaYWe7 RVss5CFfSeZIZbpnHqDAFWPJ/4Mri6pIeEKkRG/+TFI0aRL1XWXWqvZQ+5I3yqanvwA3 f3El6PnVR71u9nxTokW53d2XTiUDg94MDbBISrD3NGapOveNyBAiYGvLw8mDdENtchMb 73ZA== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ0wfWai53FEpNCCXUiGmCQk4kXx1GnBnticAshoAXVyIIlWV04H 51uhmVGXGnej8nCafSsZJX35Xx5mNI7WNG8jzWY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vsAYOTR+5HUFWLnGNvBjCE1mYu9IQGa/VZb1xKhAUWLqor/O6NTVWK5euDbfR8MYetMOM2gHcGllF47lSMWIqs= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6820:346:: with SMTP id m6mr1568317ooe.22.1585623370797; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 19:56:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6830:13ce:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 19:56:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1FC51F38-54F0-4C54-91D3-B7B053642BEE@eggert.org> References: <1FC51F38-54F0-4C54-91D3-B7B053642BEE@eggert.org> From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 09:56:10 +0700 Message-ID: To: Lars Eggert Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c3951a05a21db563" Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] A Course on Network Engineering by the Internet Society X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 02:56:13 -0000 --000000000000c3951a05a21db563 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear Lars & architecture-discuss, Forgive me if there are troubles regarding with my posts so far... I have just been thinking that/whether/if those posts have relevances with this list of general issues on the Internet architecture (1) --as I have been reading on the subject. For instance, the course on "Network Operations/Engineering" I said right before as one being released by the Internet Society seemed closely related with the "Internet Architecture"; moreover, it mentioned, as part of the course, a special section on the Internet Enginneering Task Force --which were one of the course objectives and one of the learning modules. NOTE: (1) I refer to https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss and https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss Regard, Guntur Wiseno Putra Pada Selasa, 31 Maret 2020, Lars Eggert menulis: > Hi, > > would you please stop posting random things to this list? > > Thanks, > Lars > --000000000000c3951a05a21db563 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Lars &
architecture-discuss,

Forgive me= if there are troubles regarding with my posts so far... I have just been t= hinking that/whether/if those posts have relevances with this list of gener= al issues on the Internet architecture (1) --as I have been reading on the = subject.

For instance, the course on "Network= Operations/Engineering" I said right before as one being released by = the Internet Society seemed closely related with the "Internet Archite= cture"; moreover, it mentioned, as part of the course, a special secti= on on the Internet Enginneering Task Force --which were one of the course o= bjectives and one of the learning modules.

and=C2=A0


<= /div>

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada = Selasa, 31 Maret 2020, Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org> menulis:
Hi,

would you please stop posting random things to this list?

Thanks,
Lars
--000000000000c3951a05a21db563-- From nobody Mon Mar 30 20:24:43 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 117EA3A19AA for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 20:24:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.004 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.004 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JE_c-StQdm1o for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 20:24:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x236.google.com (mail-lj1-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3D80D3A19A8 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 20:24:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x236.google.com with SMTP id r24so20452811ljd.4 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 20:24:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=IMeW6hsmxh3X3KAA+jutt7UAWvmvOu44La0mYq+9qT4=; b=M/FWR4AE1TonBK6pLUP856XEMPBvwxxJ+R9CRjL5J6TwP+NRgulxICS7KSiF0KY4I0 zt8LiY8RtIiX+HgPeGNMU1AmT+9lnT6tEqVVlulSsIIImvjreXHFLFSkgdxAWL+LBZ8d 9CXn24DC+eAtTmXY56BjwPo3NoXef/Km0j5Y+Uati4o+sHVYEeSOclHjuyTxCyXNszci 181uvQf0C+sLCjLA/6FYCIKseoGo+XvCbTjrdsqeuHtcwBys9eOTAwUVKhWG5N2vimf6 0iMq58qhxl2htcJEimdG7jm16YQXytwf564RUl5kEFbqQFeoszzKeJq+IipFdbaDgF+1 duPg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=IMeW6hsmxh3X3KAA+jutt7UAWvmvOu44La0mYq+9qT4=; b=QWrNtNHkdmTeNgJY/CDExw28ZHkmg22gGX5eycWaavUmE6dbYwtzfTJxfsWn/2p9g9 UZCHpj7wrtFQbtcfaq7E2owsOtsMXRDFNpnWllIRIyXfQwU55xt/uKgebCXyWxCwSXoS W3GVf1WEesqyxiMfbaX1B/GfkqQTQSXgYBtIWXjnXwtR1oPURRSPQYgf2ewklC1sxsqd 58Zo4ipypfQ7xSmIfUSj8BgT8L6CliHGK2+44BPR6VPCN+ZGrZNu5i79vPmvf9l7j23E cAQEX8+Ryb7FGfN/quKxq3hu2gVhbadDoCykBwAmzIC1Za+xeb9Tafc3vuWMhlbEomav P8PA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuaitV50Mo+FbFxUt4IMaPHEAacBWzTlta0QPB3mKOqyhIfDRnj/ OZgOaGUNi3X13cXZdlvClaaFlTvbYXVkiwTHkgW3dA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLhG3CKH84Jg8aB1pn+Fx8hN8+ys15OKwzsEpkIgB7Yuny5l6N6lDZQJuT45FQy05BqAG1TfgmVmtu4yJSVawk= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:b0ee:: with SMTP id h14mr8908770ljl.35.1585625077475; Mon, 30 Mar 2020 20:24:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1FC51F38-54F0-4C54-91D3-B7B053642BEE@eggert.org> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 20:24:00 -0700 Message-ID: To: Guntur Wiseno Putra Cc: Lars Eggert , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007d7d9305a21e1b08" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] A Course on Network Engineering by the Internet Society X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 03:24:41 -0000 --0000000000007d7d9305a21e1b08 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" This list is specifically for discussing Internet architecture not for general announcements. -Ekr On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 7:56 PM Guntur Wiseno Putra wrote: > Dear Lars & > architecture-discuss, > > Forgive me if there are troubles regarding with my posts so far... I have > just been thinking that/whether/if those posts have relevances with this > list of general issues on the Internet architecture (1) --as I have been > reading on the subject. > > For instance, the course on "Network Operations/Engineering" I said right > before as one being released by the Internet Society seemed closely related > with the "Internet Architecture"; moreover, it mentioned, as part of the > course, a special section on the Internet Enginneering Task Force --which > were one of the course objectives and one of the learning modules. > > NOTE: > (1) I refer to > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > > and > > https://www..iab.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > > > > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > Pada Selasa, 31 Maret 2020, Lars Eggert menulis: > >> Hi, >> >> would you please stop posting random things to this list? >> >> Thanks, >> Lars >> > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > --0000000000007d7d9305a21e1b08 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This list is specifically for discussing Internet arc= hitecture not for general announcements.

-Ekr=


On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 7:56 PM Guntur Wiseno Putra &l= t;gsenopu@gmail.com> wrote:
=
Dear Lars &architecture-discuss,

Forgive me if there are troub= les regarding with my posts so far... I have just been thinking that/whethe= r/if those posts have relevances with this list of general issues on the In= ternet architecture (1) --as I have been reading on the subject.
=
For instance, the course on "Network Operations/Enginee= ring" I said right before as one being released by the Internet Societ= y seemed closely related with the "Internet Architecture"; moreov= er, it mentioned, as part of the course, a special section on the Internet = Enginneering Task Force --which were one of the course objectives and one o= f the learning modules.

NOTE:
=C2=A0(1) = I refer to


and=C2= =A0



R= egard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Selasa, 31 Maret 2020, Lar= s Eggert <lars@egge= rt.org> menulis:
Architec= ture-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/arc= hitecture-discuss
--0000000000007d7d9305a21e1b08-- From nobody Tue Mar 31 02:35:26 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 695D03A1EB0 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 02:35:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wD_R6fI_BSPi for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 02:35:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x331.google.com (mail-ot1-x331.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::331]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A811A3A1EAF for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 02:35:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x331.google.com with SMTP id 22so21366994otf.0 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 02:35:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=sHCjgzK1f9eObCnnn7cqHex/sSc1NWeDVGIfTWdsZ7E=; b=pp5K2Kd3irf/n8pzTi/SvE8SG3VfOP3ot1gXxwr9AmZBqEG9e1Xv0rva5HDH+/u0Df ziFua9g/FqHrekT7HRF2cBmEwPRxF9EXUY9vla48RWYTBkCMWEztWeinX0rVqOI9rVgt KtlCv6/M7i90GIqqMWJOo0qgWVMpvVQcFlWXNCmoaaCcrgOby0RFxzbBpuqa9vA0FJod 15Ne2TY3wmzBiLDwPs7spJjeZO4EqSs7IbWFIGTk4V2XnI4tAyDEnXUgy89cFDKH09sv 1DQw63V6zsjoxVOND168D0G4lJEwKD0uIvG9E8pGy45zTVBU/fKUYALhas5TVycAtTPh Q/vg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=sHCjgzK1f9eObCnnn7cqHex/sSc1NWeDVGIfTWdsZ7E=; b=MUSo0qQS6VDAZ5iVbOqS63rdyHaLNOUGpeJvfz0A/SyOt9a3+2VhnI16lN+prpIkZA /P0Gev80tN2YOgkjWHcjgARgBgl4aAaNyi9Nxe3YA12tkFEGEgUxLIbzAnWn+Cq0zvBH UTeApZ62XVZEviXUs3hORhtE9Xm2Ay5i/AGgwXYhId9PFNNuChpEObycmpQ+bqqV33jv 58HzIPNrcQ7Zb7ZUaz2kNchCdSqBbdrlrMDSkdjGt5LjffHu+evxtgCzu8pwGwSf+g5I ILrMmpB85oY7EA9QlmrAsAkDKRqrKzB064/z+wXE49UkW9Y+4+1YJzSDW21gWp+Gfqkk dUnw== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ3XmVDSVrrkHoKN0VCkShGb+AiNKMHut/4CR/aSd39dCsG0mBAd dZEyfFbsCYlGu+bL5lR5vJZAw5TV99flqNnKoSs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vvbBoQgLiaxgNyLi/Pp4q/hSUKd1GrI0OxZFp/E7oxouHkQnktSNpBPf2SP+gytHSFn08CRICoLteuxw7GAdf4= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:798f:: with SMTP id h15mr12322625otm.284.1585647321877; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 02:35:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6830:13ce:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 02:35:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1FC51F38-54F0-4C54-91D3-B7B053642BEE@eggert.org> From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 16:35:21 +0700 Message-ID: To: Eric Rescorla Cc: Lars Eggert , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005c12f605a2234908" Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] A Course on Network Engineering by the Internet Society X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 09:35:24 -0000 --0000000000005c12f605a2234908 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear Eric & architecture-discuss, I am wandering: That/whether/if one(s) have a relevance(s) with the"Internet Architecture" is supposedly territorial/spatial and historical/momentous: perhaps it is not now but tomorrow while yesterday it was or was not relevant so as it is territorially/spatially. It means the announcement on the course on Network Operations/Engineering/Architecture released currently by the Internet Society may be treated as a referential event -- it is both about the topic and the maker-- which may not now be interesting but other times here and/or other places as people find the collaborative events. It has been about my posts in this architecture-discuss list so far as here and now are people with diverse interests on the Internet Architecture... Regard, Guntur Wiseno Putra Pada Selasa, 31 Maret 2020, Eric Rescorla menulis: > This list is specifically for discussing Internet architecture not for > general announcements. > > -Ekr > > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 7:56 PM Guntur Wiseno Putra > wrote: > >> Dear Lars & >> architecture-discuss, >> >> Forgive me if there are troubles regarding with my posts so far... I have >> just been thinking that/whether/if those posts have relevances with this >> list of general issues on the Internet architecture (1) --as I have been >> reading on the subject. >> >> For instance, the course on "Network Operations/Engineering" I said right >> before as one being released by the Internet Society seemed closely related >> with the "Internet Architecture"; moreover, it mentioned, as part of the >> course, a special section on the Internet Enginneering Task Force --which >> were one of the course objectives and one of the learning modules. >> >> NOTE: >> (1) I refer to >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss >> >> and >> >> https://www..iab.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss >> >> >> >> Regard, >> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >> Pada Selasa, 31 Maret 2020, Lars Eggert menulis: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> would you please stop posting random things to this list? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Lars >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Architecture-discuss mailing list >> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss >> > --0000000000005c12f605a2234908 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Eric &
architecture-discuss,


I am wandering:


That/whether/if one(s) have a relevance(s) with the"Internet A= rchitecture" is supposedly territorial/spatial and historical/momentou= s: perhaps it is not now but tomorrow while yesterday it was or was not rel= evant so as it is territorially/spatially. It means the announcement on the= course on Network Operations/Engineering/Architecture released curren= tly by the Internet Society may be treated as a referential event -- it is = both about the topic and the maker-- which may not now be interesting but o= ther times here and/or other places as people find the collaborative events= .

It has been about my posts in this architecture-= discuss list so far as here and now are people with diverse interests on th= e Internet Architecture...





Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra<= br>
Pada Selasa, 31 Maret 2020, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> menulis:
This list is specifically for discus= sing Internet architecture not for general announcements.
-Ekr


=
On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 7:56 PM Guntu= r Wiseno Putra <g= senopu@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Lars &
architecture-discuss,

Forgive me if there are troubles regarding with my posts so far... I = have just been thinking that/whether/if those posts have relevances with th= is list of general issues on the Internet architecture (1) --as I have been= reading on the subject.

For instance, the course = on "Network Operations/Engineering" I said right before as one be= ing released by the Internet Society seemed closely related with the "= Internet Architecture"; moreover, it mentioned, as part of the course,= a special section on the Internet Enginneering Task Force --which were one= of the course objectives and one of the learning modules.

NOTE:
=C2=A0(1) I refer to


and=C2=A0



Regard,
Guntur Wiseno= Putra

Pada Selasa, 31 Maret 2020, Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org> menulis:
Hi,

would you please stop posting random things to this list?

Thanks,
Lars
_______________________________________________
Architecture-discuss mailing list
Architec= ture-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinf= o/architecture-discuss
--0000000000005c12f605a2234908-- From nobody Tue Mar 31 03:51:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C97AB3A1FEE for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 03:51:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.005 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.005 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GTAzDodPsnC5 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 03:51:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vs25.mail.saunalahti.fi (vs25.mail.saunalahti.fi [62.142.117.202]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC4D23A1FEC for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 03:51:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vs25.mail.saunalahti.fi (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vs25.mail.saunalahti.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5528320C94; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 13:51:29 +0300 (EEST) Received: from gw02.mail.saunalahti.fi (gw02.mail.saunalahti.fi [195.197.172.116]) by vs25.mail.saunalahti.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53AC5200EF; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 13:51:29 +0300 (EEST) Received: from eggert.org (unknown [62.248.255.8]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: eggert@elisanet.fi) by gw02.mail.saunalahti.fi (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 167A440003; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 13:51:26 +0300 (EEST) Received: from stickers.eggert.org (stickers.eggert.org [172.24.110.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49AC184E2DA; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 13:51:20 +0300 (EEST) From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: <53A198B5-37A0-4313-98F7-DEB9196E2B3B@eggert.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A6424BCE-815A-4D78-860D-B0478519C2A2"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 13:51:19 +0300 In-Reply-To: Cc: Eric Rescorla , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" To: Guntur Wiseno Putra References: <1FC51F38-54F0-4C54-91D3-B7B053642BEE@eggert.org> X-MailScanner-ID: 49AC184E2DA.A657F X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] A Course on Network Engineering by the Internet Society X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 10:51:33 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A6424BCE-815A-4D78-860D-B0478519C2A2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, I am not sure you understand what this list is for, since you keep = forwarding pointers to largely irrelevant things. Have you realized that this is not what other participants on this list = are doing? Have you wondered why what you post seems to not be discussed = much? Thanks, Lars On 2020-3-31, at 12:35, Guntur Wiseno Putra wrote: >=20 > Dear Eric & > architecture-discuss, >=20 >=20 >=20 > I am wandering: >=20 >=20 > That/whether/if one(s) have a relevance(s) with the"Internet = Architecture" is supposedly territorial/spatial and = historical/momentous: perhaps it is not now but tomorrow while yesterday = it was or was not relevant so as it is territorially/spatially. It means = the announcement on the course on Network = Operations/Engineering/Architecture released currently by the Internet = Society may be treated as a referential event -- it is both about the = topic and the maker-- which may not now be interesting but other times = here and/or other places as people find the collaborative events. >=20 > It has been about my posts in this architecture-discuss list so far as = here and now are people with diverse interests on the Internet = Architecture... >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra >=20 > Pada Selasa, 31 Maret 2020, Eric Rescorla menulis: > This list is specifically for discussing Internet architecture not for = general announcements. >=20 > -Ekr >=20 >=20 > On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 7:56 PM Guntur Wiseno Putra = wrote: > Dear Lars & > architecture-discuss, >=20 > Forgive me if there are troubles regarding with my posts so far... I = have just been thinking that/whether/if those posts have relevances with = this list of general issues on the Internet architecture (1) --as I have = been reading on the subject. >=20 > For instance, the course on "Network Operations/Engineering" I said = right before as one being released by the Internet Society seemed = closely related with the "Internet Architecture"; moreover, it = mentioned, as part of the course, a special section on the Internet = Enginneering Task Force --which were one of the course objectives and = one of the learning modules. >=20 > NOTE: > (1) I refer to >=20 > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss >=20 > and >=20 > MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "www.iab.org" = claiming to be = https://www..iab.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss >=20 >=20 > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra >=20 > Pada Selasa, 31 Maret 2020, Lars Eggert menulis: > Hi, >=20 > would you please stop posting random things to this list? >=20 > Thanks, > Lars > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss --Apple-Mail=_A6424BCE-815A-4D78-860D-B0478519C2A2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; 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Tue, 31 Mar 2020 06:10:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6830:13ce:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 06:10:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <53A198B5-37A0-4313-98F7-DEB9196E2B3B@eggert.org> References: <1FC51F38-54F0-4C54-91D3-B7B053642BEE@eggert.org> <53A198B5-37A0-4313-98F7-DEB9196E2B3B@eggert.org> From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 20:10:50 +0700 Message-ID: To: Lars Eggert Cc: Eric Rescorla , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fe124b05a2264b1a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] A Course on Network Engineering by the Internet Society X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 13:10:54 -0000 --000000000000fe124b05a2264b1a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear Lars & architecture-discuss, I may be a child of a society where the questions on beauties (such harmonies with nature) and justices (such gains for pains, such victories for struggles) belong to: as it is about my concern on the Internet, on its architecture...? Regard, Guntur Wiseno Putra Pada Selasa, 31 Maret 2020, Lars Eggert menulis: > Hi, > > I am not sure you understand what this list is for, since you keep > forwarding pointers to largely irrelevant things. > > Have you realized that this is not what other participants on this list > are doing? Have you wondered why what you post seems to not be discussed > much? > > Thanks, > Lars > > On 2020-3-31, at 12:35, Guntur Wiseno Putra wrote: > > > > Dear Eric & > > architecture-discuss, > > > > > > > > I am wandering: > > > > > > That/whether/if one(s) have a relevance(s) with the"Internet > Architecture" is supposedly territorial/spatial and historical/momentous: > perhaps it is not now but tomorrow while yesterday it was or was not > relevant so as it is territorially/spatially. It means the announcement on > the course on Network Operations/Engineering/Architecture released > currently by the Internet Society may be treated as a referential event -- > it is both about the topic and the maker-- which may not now be interesting > but other times here and/or other places as people find the collaborative > events. > > > > It has been about my posts in this architecture-discuss list so far as > here and now are people with diverse interests on the Internet > Architecture... > > > > > > > > > > > > Regard, > > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > > > Pada Selasa, 31 Maret 2020, Eric Rescorla menulis: > > This list is specifically for discussing Internet architecture not for > general announcements. > > > > -Ekr > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 7:56 PM Guntur Wiseno Putra > wrote: > > Dear Lars & > > architecture-discuss, > > > > Forgive me if there are troubles regarding with my posts so far... I > have just been thinking that/whether/if those posts have relevances with > this list of general issues on the Internet architecture (1) --as I have > been reading on the subject. > > > > For instance, the course on "Network Operations/Engineering" I said > right before as one being released by the Internet Society seemed closely > related with the "Internet Architecture"; moreover, it mentioned, as part > of the course, a special section on the Internet Enginneering Task Force > --which were one of the course objectives and one of the learning modules. > > > > NOTE: > > (1) I refer to > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > > > > and > > > > MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "www.iab.org" > claiming to be https://www..iab.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > > > > > > Regard, > > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > > > Pada Selasa, 31 Maret 2020, Lars Eggert menulis: > > Hi, > > > > would you please stop posting random things to this list? > > > > Thanks, > > Lars > > _______________________________________________ > > Architecture-discuss mailing list > > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > > --000000000000fe124b05a2264b1a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Lars &
architecture-discuss,

I may be a= child of a society where the questions on beauties (such harmonies with na= ture) and justices (such gains for pains, such victories for struggles) bel= ong to: as it is about my concern on the Internet, on its architecture...?<= /div>


Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Put= ra

Pada Selasa, 31 Maret 2020, Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org> menulis:
Hi,

I am not sure you understand what this list is for, since you keep forwardi= ng pointers to largely irrelevant things.

Have you realized that this is not what other participants on this list are= doing? Have you wondered why what you post seems to not be discussed much?=

Thanks,
Lars

On 2020-3-31, at 12:35, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Eric &
> architecture-discuss,
>
>
>
> I am wandering:
>
>
> That/whether/if one(s) have a relevance(s) with the"Internet Arch= itecture" is supposedly territorial/spatial and historical/momentous: = perhaps it is not now but tomorrow while yesterday it was or was not releva= nt so as it is territorially/spatially. It means the announcement on the co= urse on Network Operations/Engineering/Architecture released currently= by the Internet Society may be treated as a referential event -- it is bot= h about the topic and the maker-- which may not now be interesting but othe= r times here and/or other places as people find the collaborative events. >
> It has been about my posts in this architecture-discuss list so far as= here and now are people with diverse interests on the Internet Architectur= e...
>
>
>
>
>
> Regard,
> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>
> Pada Selasa, 31 Maret 2020, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> menulis:
> This list is specifically for discussing Internet architecture not for= general announcements.
>
> -Ekr
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 7:56 PM Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Lars &
> architecture-discuss,
>
> Forgive me if there are troubles regarding with my posts so far... I h= ave just been thinking that/whether/if those posts have relevances with thi= s list of general issues on the Internet architecture (1) --as I have been = reading on the subject.
>
> For instance, the course on "Network Operations/Engineering"= I said right before as one being released by the Internet Society seemed c= losely related with the "Internet Architecture"; moreover, it men= tioned, as part of the course, a special section on the Internet Enginneeri= ng Task Force --which were one of the course objectives and one of the lear= ning modules.
>
> NOTE:
>=C2=A0 (1) I refer to
>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-= discuss
>
> and
>
> MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "www.iab.org" claiming to= be https://www..iab= .org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss
>
>
> Regard,
> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>
> Pada Selasa, 31 Maret 2020, Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org> menulis:
> Hi,
>
> would you please stop posting random things to this list?
>
> Thanks,
> Lars
> _______________________________________________
> Architecture-discuss mailing list
> Architecture-discuss@= ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-= discuss

--000000000000fe124b05a2264b1a-- From nobody Tue Mar 31 12:16:38 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F9FA3A27F0; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 12:09:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.904 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.904 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.652, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9jYQFVF5ZU3M; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 12:09:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 40DE13A27EA; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 12:08:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A2DB548015; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 21:08:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 80FEF440040; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 21:08:45 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 21:08:45 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: opsawg@ietf.org Message-ID: <20200331190845.GS30574@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 12:16:37 -0700 Subject: [arch-d] opsawq: Q: ops learning ? (was: Re: A Course on Network Engineering by the Internet Society) X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 19:09:17 -0000 [Bcc: architecture-discuss] [Thanks, Guntur for forwarding] Guntur got some negative responses on architecture-discuss for posting the info below, i hope questions about this to opsawg will find a friendlier reception: - I thought it was great to see that ISOC engages in supporting operations, i was not aware of this. - where would i have found an original announcement about something like this ? isoc mailing list(s) i can subscribe to without personally being a member to ISOC personally ? - I was wondering if there are actually any i* mailing lists for operators to discuss ops, e.g.: whoever would take this course before or after (certainly beyond scope of opsawg). I asked the email given on the isoc page, but got no response (learning@isoc.org). Cheers Toerless > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 11:05:24PM +0700, Guntur Wiseno Putra wrote: > Dear architecture-discuss, > > > An update on "Network Engineering" released by the Internet Society --this > information I formerly got from Kevin Chege, Internet Society. > > > > Online Course: Introduction to Network OperationsUNIX/Linux, Networking & > Domain Name System (DNS)The deadline for applications is 2 April 2020. > > https://www.internetsociety.org/learning/network-operations/ > > > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra From nobody Tue Mar 31 12:21:10 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B4493A27BC for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 12:21:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.904 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.904 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.652, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gy8p0KZ5VWAY for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 12:21:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E77DB3A27B9 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 12:21:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B9FD548048; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 21:21:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 32721440040; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 21:21:01 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 21:21:01 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: Guntur Wiseno Putra Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <20200331192101.GT30574@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] A Course on Network Engineering by the Internet Society X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 19:21:09 -0000 architecture-discuss mailing list seems to be configured as to not allow it to be Bcc'ed, so not easy to move a discussion. Appended her what i sent. Cheers Toerless >From tte@cs.fau.de Tue Mar 31 21:08:45 2020 Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 21:08:45 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: opsawg@ietf.org Cc: Guntur Wiseno Putra Bcc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: [Bcc: architecture-discuss] [Thanks, Guntur for forwarding] Guntur got some negative responses on architecture-discuss for posting the info below, i hope questions about this to opsawg will find a friendlier reception: - I thought it was great to see that ISOC engages in supporting operations, i was not aware of this. - where would i have found an original announcement about something like this ? isoc mailing list(s) i can subscribe to without personally being a member to ISOC personally ? - I was wondering if there are actually any i* mailing lists for operators to discuss ops, e.g.: whoever would take this course before or after (certainly beyond scope of opsawg). I asked the email given on the isoc page, but got no response (learning@isoc.org). Cheers Toerless > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 11:05:24PM +0700, Guntur Wiseno Putra wrote: > Dear architecture-discuss, > > > An update on "Network Engineering" released by the Internet Society --this > information I formerly got from Kevin Chege, Internet Society. > > > > Online Course: Introduction to Network OperationsUNIX/Linux, Networking & > Domain Name System (DNS)The deadline for applications is 2 April 2020. > > https://www.internetsociety.org/learning/network-operations/ > > > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra From nobody Tue Mar 31 12:27:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 900B93A2A70 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 12:27:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ujqv3nukQztd for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 12:27:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from daley.org.nz (412514.vps-10.com [212.48.70.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 029803A2A6F for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 12:27:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by 412514.vps-10.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DDA444E1935; Wed, 1 Apr 2020 08:27:07 +1300 (NZDT) Authentication-Results: 412514.vps-10.com; spf=pass (sender IP is 158.140.230.105) smtp.mailfrom=jay@daley.org.nz smtp.helo=jays-mbp.localdomain Received-SPF: pass (412514.vps-10.com: connection is authenticated) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: <1E6F4BFD-C940-4490-8727-3E29DC21B70D@daley.org.nz> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_6BAF500A-6FEA-428E-B921-AC0D08AF13AE" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 08:27:03 +1300 In-Reply-To: <20200331192101.GT30574@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org To: Toerless Eckert References: <20200331192101.GT30574@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] A Course on Network Engineering by the Internet Society X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 19:27:15 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_6BAF500A-6FEA-428E-B921-AC0D08AF13AE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On 1/04/2020, at 8:21 AM, Toerless Eckert wrote: >=20 > architecture-discuss mailing list seems to be configured as to not = allow > it to be Bcc'ed, so not easy to move a discussion. Appended her what > i sent. Your bcc worked. Jay >=20 > Cheers > Toerless >=20 >> =46rom tte@cs.fau.de Tue Mar 31 21:08:45 2020 > Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 21:08:45 +0200 > From: Toerless Eckert > To: opsawg@ietf.org > Cc: Guntur Wiseno Putra > Bcc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org > In-Reply-To: = >=20 > [Bcc: architecture-discuss] > [Thanks, Guntur for forwarding] >=20 > Guntur got some negative responses on architecture-discuss for posting > the info below, i hope questions about this to opsawg will find a=20 > friendlier reception: >=20 > - I thought it was great to see that ISOC engages in supporting > operations, i was not aware of this. >=20 > - where would i have found an original announcement about something = like > this ? isoc mailing list(s) i can subscribe to without personally > being a member to ISOC personally ? >=20 > - I was wondering if there are actually any i* mailing lists for > operators to discuss ops, e.g.: whoever would take this course before > or after (certainly beyond scope of opsawg). >=20 > I asked the email given on the isoc page, but got no response > (learning@isoc.org). >=20 > Cheers > Toerless >=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Architecture-discuss mailing list >> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss >=20 > On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 11:05:24PM +0700, Guntur Wiseno Putra wrote: >> Dear architecture-discuss, >>=20 >>=20 >> An update on "Network Engineering" released by the Internet Society = --this >> information I formerly got from Kevin Chege, Internet Society. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Online Course: Introduction to Network OperationsUNIX/Linux, = Networking & >> Domain Name System (DNS)The deadline for applications is 2 April = 2020. >>=20 >> https://www.internetsociety.org/learning/network-operations/ >>=20 >>=20 >> Regard, >> Guntur Wiseno Putra >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss --=20 Jay Daley jay@daley.org.nz +64 21 678840 --Apple-Mail=_6BAF500A-6FEA-428E-B921-AC0D08AF13AE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

On 1/04/2020, at 8:21 AM, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> = wrote:

architecture-discuss mailing list seems to be configured as = to not allow
it to be Bcc'ed, so not easy to move a = discussion. Appended her what
i sent.

Your = bcc worked.

Jay


Cheers
=    Toerless

=46rom tte@cs.fau.de Tue Mar 31 21:08:45 2020
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 21:08:45 +0200
From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
To: opsawg@ietf.org
Cc: Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
Bcc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org
In-Reply-To: = <CAKi_AEuTOBDsUqqN-0dOGiwXriSyf9zYrDrabx0e-ngWDPoXRA@mail.gmail.= com>

[Bcc: architecture-discuss]
[Thanks, Guntur for forwarding]

Guntur got some negative responses on architecture-discuss = for posting
the info below, i hope questions about this to = opsawg will find a
friendlier reception:

- I thought it was great to see that ISOC engages in = supporting
 operations, i was not aware of this.

- where would i have found an original = announcement about something like
 this ? isoc = mailing list(s) i can subscribe to without personally
=  being a member to ISOC personally ?

- = I was wondering if there are actually any i* mailing lists for
 operators to discuss ops, e.g.: whoever would take = this course before
 or after (certainly beyond scope = of opsawg).

 I asked the email given = on the isoc page, but got no response
 (learning@isoc.org).

Cheers
=    Toerless

_______________________________________________
Architecture-discuss mailing list
Architecture-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss

On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at = 11:05:24PM +0700, Guntur Wiseno Putra wrote:
Dear architecture-discuss,


An update on "Network Engineering" released by = the Internet Society --this
information I formerly got = from Kevin Chege, Internet Society.



Online Course: Introduction to Network = OperationsUNIX/Linux, Networking &
Domain Name System = (DNS)The deadline for applications is 2 April 2020.

https://www.internetsociety.org/learning/network-operations/


Regard,
Guntur= Wiseno Putra

_______________________________________________
Architecture-discuss mailing list
Architecture-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss

-- 
Jay Daley
jay@daley.org.nz
+64 21 678840


= --Apple-Mail=_6BAF500A-6FEA-428E-B921-AC0D08AF13AE-- From nobody Tue Mar 31 12:40:11 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D63B3A2A85 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 12:40:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.251 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.251 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WzepfG24FtWH for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 12:40:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6307C3A2A83 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 12:40:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1296C548015; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 21:40:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 09D53440040; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 21:40:01 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 21:40:00 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: Jay Daley Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <20200331194000.GA28965@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <20200331192101.GT30574@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <1E6F4BFD-C940-4490-8727-3E29DC21B70D@daley.org.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1E6F4BFD-C940-4490-8727-3E29DC21B70D@daley.org.nz> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] A Course on Network Engineering by the Internet Society X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 19:40:09 -0000 Thanks. I got a message that it was awaiting moderator approval, and for usually non-moderated lists that typically means it won't get processed. Sorry if i double posted because of that problem. On Wed, Apr 01, 2020 at 08:27:03AM +1300, Jay Daley wrote: > > > > On 1/04/2020, at 8:21 AM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > > > architecture-discuss mailing list seems to be configured as to not allow > > it to be Bcc'ed, so not easy to move a discussion. Appended her what > > i sent. > > Your bcc worked. > > Jay > > > > > Cheers > > Toerless > > > >> From tte@cs.fau.de Tue Mar 31 21:08:45 2020 > > Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 21:08:45 +0200 > > From: Toerless Eckert > > To: opsawg@ietf.org > > Cc: Guntur Wiseno Putra > > Bcc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org > > In-Reply-To: > > > > [Bcc: architecture-discuss] > > [Thanks, Guntur for forwarding] > > > > Guntur got some negative responses on architecture-discuss for posting > > the info below, i hope questions about this to opsawg will find a > > friendlier reception: > > > > - I thought it was great to see that ISOC engages in supporting > > operations, i was not aware of this. > > > > - where would i have found an original announcement about something like > > this ? isoc mailing list(s) i can subscribe to without personally > > being a member to ISOC personally ? > > > > - I was wondering if there are actually any i* mailing lists for > > operators to discuss ops, e.g.: whoever would take this course before > > or after (certainly beyond scope of opsawg). > > > > I asked the email given on the isoc page, but got no response > > (learning@isoc.org). > > > > Cheers > > Toerless > > > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Architecture-discuss mailing list > >> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > > > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 11:05:24PM +0700, Guntur Wiseno Putra wrote: > >> Dear architecture-discuss, > >> > >> > >> An update on "Network Engineering" released by the Internet Society --this > >> information I formerly got from Kevin Chege, Internet Society. > >> > >> > >> > >> Online Course: Introduction to Network OperationsUNIX/Linux, Networking & > >> Domain Name System (DNS)The deadline for applications is 2 April 2020. > >> > >> https://www.internetsociety.org/learning/network-operations/ > >> > >> > >> Regard, > >> Guntur Wiseno Putra > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Architecture-discuss mailing list > > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > > -- > Jay Daley > jay@daley.org.nz > +64 21 678840 > From nobody Tue Mar 31 18:56:03 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A3443A0FE0 for ; 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Tue, 31 Mar 2020 18:55:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6830:13ce:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 18:55:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20200331194000.GA28965@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <20200331192101.GT30574@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <1E6F4BFD-C940-4490-8727-3E29DC21B70D@daley.org.nz> <20200331194000.GA28965@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 08:55:55 +0700 Message-ID: To: Toerless Eckert Cc: Jay Daley , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000023aa5f05a230fc6a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] A Course on Network Engineering by the Internet Society X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2020 01:56:02 -0000 --00000000000023aa5f05a230fc6a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear Toerless, Jay, Mirja, Lars, Eric & architecture-discuss, Thank you, I am reading yours So, should we ingnore irrelevant things...? Regard, Guntur Wiseno Putra Pada Rabu, 01 April 2020, Toerless Eckert menulis: > Thanks. I got a message that it was awaiting moderator > approval, and for usually non-moderated lists that typically means > it won't get processed. Sorry if i double posted because of that > problem. > > On Wed, Apr 01, 2020 at 08:27:03AM +1300, Jay Daley wrote: > > > > > > > On 1/04/2020, at 8:21 AM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > > > > > architecture-discuss mailing list seems to be configured as to not > allow > > > it to be Bcc'ed, so not easy to move a discussion. Appended her what > > > i sent. > > > > Your bcc worked. > > > > Jay > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > Toerless > > > > > >> From tte@cs.fau.de Tue Mar 31 21:08:45 2020 > > > Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 21:08:45 +0200 > > > From: Toerless Eckert > > > To: opsawg@ietf.org > > > Cc: Guntur Wiseno Putra > > > Bcc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org > > > In-Reply-To: ngWDPoXRA@mail.gmail.com> > > > > > > [Bcc: architecture-discuss] > > > [Thanks, Guntur for forwarding] > > > > > > Guntur got some negative responses on architecture-discuss for posting > > > the info below, i hope questions about this to opsawg will find a > > > friendlier reception: > > > > > > - I thought it was great to see that ISOC engages in supporting > > > operations, i was not aware of this. > > > > > > - where would i have found an original announcement about something > like > > > this ? isoc mailing list(s) i can subscribe to without personally > > > being a member to ISOC personally ? > > > > > > - I was wondering if there are actually any i* mailing lists for > > > operators to discuss ops, e.g.: whoever would take this course before > > > or after (certainly beyond scope of opsawg). > > > > > > I asked the email given on the isoc page, but got no response > > > (learning@isoc.org). > > > > > > Cheers > > > Toerless > > > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Architecture-discuss mailing list > > >> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 11:05:24PM +0700, Guntur Wiseno Putra wrote: > > >> Dear architecture-discuss, > > >> > > >> > > >> An update on "Network Engineering" released by the Internet Society > --this > > >> information I formerly got from Kevin Chege, Internet Society. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Online Course: Introduction to Network OperationsUNIX/Linux, > Networking & > > >> Domain Name System (DNS)The deadline for applications is 2 April 2020. > > >> > > >> https://www.internetsociety.org/learning/network-operations/ > > >> > > >> > > >> Regard, > > >> Guntur Wiseno Putra > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Architecture-discuss mailing list > > > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > > > > -- > > Jay Daley > > jay@daley.org.nz > > +64 21 678840 > > > > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > --00000000000023aa5f05a230fc6a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Toerless, Jay, Mirja, Lars, Eric &
architecture-discuss,
=

Thank you, I am reading yours=C2=A0

So, should we ingnore irrelevant things...?

=



Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Rabu, 01 April 2020, Toerless Eckert <= ;tte@cs.fau.de> menulis:
Thanks. I got a message that it was awaiting modera= tor
approval, and for usually non-moderated lists that typically means
it won't get processed. Sorry if i double posted because of that
problem.

On Wed, Apr 01, 2020 at 08:27:03AM +1300, Jay Daley wrote:
>
>
> > On 1/04/2020, at 8:21 AM, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:
> >
> > architecture-discuss mailing list seems to be configured as to no= t allow
> > it to be Bcc'ed, so not easy to move a discussion. Appended h= er what
> > i sent.
>
> Your bcc worked.
>
> Jay
>
> >
> > Cheers
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Toerless
> >
> >> From tte@cs.fau.de Tue M= ar 31 21:08:45 2020
> > Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 21:08:45 +0200
> > From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs= .fau.de>
> > To: opsawg@ietf.org
> > Cc: Guntur Wiseno Putra <= gsenopu@gmail.com>
> > Bcc: architectur= e-discuss@ietf.org
> > In-Reply-To: <CAKi_AEuTOBDsUqqN-0dOGiwXriSyf9z= YrDrabx0e-ngWDPoXRA@mail.gmail.com>
> >
> > [Bcc: architecture-discuss]
> > [Thanks, Guntur for forwarding]
> >
> > Guntur got some negative responses on architecture-discuss for po= sting
> > the info below, i hope questions about this to opsawg will find a=
> > friendlier reception:
> >
> > - I thought it was great to see that ISOC engages in supporting > >=C2=A0 operations, i was not aware of this.
> >
> > - where would i have found an original announcement about somethi= ng like
> >=C2=A0 this ? isoc mailing list(s) i can subscribe to without pers= onally
> >=C2=A0 being a member to ISOC personally ?
> >
> > - I was wondering if there are actually any i* mailing lists for<= br> > >=C2=A0 operators to discuss ops, e.g.: whoever would take this cou= rse before
> >=C2=A0 or after (certainly beyond scope of opsawg).
> >
> >=C2=A0 I asked the email given on the isoc page, but got no respon= se
> >=C2=A0 (learning@isoc.org= ).
> >
> > Cheers
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Toerless
> >
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Architecture-discuss mailing list
> >> Architecture= -discuss@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/arch= itecture-discuss
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 11:05:24PM +0700, Guntur Wiseno Putra wro= te:
> >> Dear architecture-discuss,
> >>
> >>
> >> An update on "Network Engineering" released by the = Internet Society --this
> >> information I formerly got from Kevin Chege, Internet Society= .
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Online Course: Introduction to Network OperationsUNIX/Linux, = Networking &
> >> Domain Name System (DNS)The deadline for applications is 2 Ap= ril 2020.
> >>
> >> https://www.internetsociety.org/learning= /network-operations/
> >>
> >>
> >> Regard,
> >> Guntur Wiseno Putra
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Architecture-discuss mailing list
> > Architecture-dis= cuss@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architec= ture-discuss
>
> --
> Jay Daley
> jay@daley.org.nz
> +64 21 678840
>

_______________________________________________
Architecture-discuss mailing list
Architecture-discuss@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discu= ss
--00000000000023aa5f05a230fc6a-- From nobody Tue Mar 31 18:58:27 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B9C23A0FE0 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 18:58:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.004 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.004 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jGhK2gSNfMgy for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 18:58:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x230.google.com (mail-lj1-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 755E73A1021 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 18:58:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x230.google.com with SMTP id r24so24139714ljd.4 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 18:58:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=UfZxM2Sug/JDBbTUrpYwZ3FWzVAct3ETxUaHQmuAGNU=; b=LtbpuUpNOiPqjl3Wbmn966w2U6P6GwKfq09w0rLdoF7reWKG0JW4qdBrD47uuzMZIf SHOgho5MV1KLHrUb9UXlQRaJeC7DxpvazzgzbjE/VoSN1+4pnb1wvSdFxy8/2pQjYZAP +cSGM7HLV2EcHiYEwN/cToU5B0k7lwhwrI7qk3p7Lj9QtImQSWmNANu0oIOLJvNWIx83 txT7otPjUv4nBQAvEK7PZMag3n+iPZPiGSKtqZaZHQR3upLFMMPvtCxy5YLx4VCnFo4Q vZhn4+Jk4bIM+QJ+Pdl0c6YdA5YmR/ZrhJbiA3I+8ENe1NlFnDB97AMGObD3mfOYv094 R2kQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=UfZxM2Sug/JDBbTUrpYwZ3FWzVAct3ETxUaHQmuAGNU=; b=e848Ykmzid4bhxEDiqMLrYrr1XaY3YhbvHWeie0uCkH46ev0yb716044XvRI6BcFYP P7j35qHyJ6BsEeOVVusvm79p5TFatxQ4fMGb2JLJpK6XPEzq7VDof4JFfscLdI//qEI3 IOVkZ6Tq3znwGR9O0s1YDm7xk62/g8CPjr3xxP6dEvBNQ4UwXzwXpextXuqDgbjYwj9L MNd79jlhOoQCnmg5pwb+y0YzAhbl2lcZSmn0A0v4qtoURXIG/lmW20ngvIhofnziWlrv pmY7u56QRN0wh1is6sTRm7CTELFjz2iO7hTxaHZNlXU0RNhAPXlE4n5h/htVor/4g2vi VieQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0Pub2tDgPLXZIEsVduBP0+9gQ/1iU/REqipI9BTyzXPcdJz5N/1ny n4e9NNWC7bNA+iFuR9OCLvqNFnriNv0JjlTV8aSLmQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypIuiXwN/YDB7NrkSOrrylBc/mVHyqZWFzLcI5liCZbZyyqKoq6CBHU8JzWFb33nY8LxDFLzds676XufspBJieg= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:989a:: with SMTP id b26mr11825265ljj.274.1585706291651; Tue, 31 Mar 2020 18:58:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200331192101.GT30574@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <1E6F4BFD-C940-4490-8727-3E29DC21B70D@daley.org.nz> <20200331194000.GA28965@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 18:57:35 -0700 Message-ID: To: Guntur Wiseno Putra Cc: Toerless Eckert , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003b79de05a231041e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] A Course on Network Engineering by the Internet Society X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2020 01:58:25 -0000 --0000000000003b79de05a231041e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" n Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 6:56 PM Guntur Wiseno Putra wrote: > Dear Toerless, Jay, Mirja, Lars, Eric & > architecture-discuss, > > Thank you, I am reading yours > > So, should we ingnore irrelevant things...? > Yes, we should ignore irrelevant material but you should also stop posting irrelevant material to this list. -Ekr > > > > > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > Pada Rabu, 01 April 2020, Toerless Eckert menulis: > >> Thanks. I got a message that it was awaiting moderator >> approval, and for usually non-moderated lists that typically means >> it won't get processed. Sorry if i double posted because of that >> problem. >> >> On Wed, Apr 01, 2020 at 08:27:03AM +1300, Jay Daley wrote: >> > >> > >> > > On 1/04/2020, at 8:21 AM, Toerless Eckert wrote: >> > > >> > > architecture-discuss mailing list seems to be configured as to not >> allow >> > > it to be Bcc'ed, so not easy to move a discussion. Appended her what >> > > i sent. >> > >> > Your bcc worked. >> > >> > Jay >> > >> > > >> > > Cheers >> > > Toerless >> > > >> > >> From tte@cs.fau.de Tue Mar 31 21:08:45 2020 >> > > Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 21:08:45 +0200 >> > > From: Toerless Eckert > >> > > To: opsawg@ietf.org >> > > Cc: Guntur Wiseno Putra >> > > Bcc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org >> > > In-Reply-To: < >> CAKi_AEuTOBDsUqqN-0dOGiwXriSyf9zYrDrabx0e-ngWDPoXRA@mail.gmail.com> >> > > >> > > [Bcc: architecture-discuss] >> > > [Thanks, Guntur for forwarding] >> > > >> > > Guntur got some negative responses on architecture-discuss for posting >> > > the info below, i hope questions about this to opsawg will find a >> > > friendlier reception: >> > > >> > > - I thought it was great to see that ISOC engages in supporting >> > > operations, i was not aware of this. >> > > >> > > - where would i have found an original announcement about something >> like >> > > this ? isoc mailing list(s) i can subscribe to without personally >> > > being a member to ISOC personally ? >> > > >> > > - I was wondering if there are actually any i* mailing lists for >> > > operators to discuss ops, e.g.: whoever would take this course before >> > > or after (certainly beyond scope of opsawg). >> > > >> > > I asked the email given on the isoc page, but got no response >> > > (learning@isoc.org). >> > > >> > > Cheers >> > > Toerless >> > > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > >> Architecture-discuss mailing list >> > >> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org >> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss >> > > >> > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 11:05:24PM +0700, Guntur Wiseno Putra wrote: >> > >> Dear architecture-discuss, >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> An update on "Network Engineering" released by the Internet Society >> --this >> > >> information I formerly got from Kevin Chege, Internet Society.. >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> Online Course: Introduction to Network OperationsUNIX/Linux, >> Networking & >> > >> Domain Name System (DNS)The deadline for applications is 2 April >> 2020. >> > >> >> > >> https://www.internetsociety.org/learning/network-operations/ >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> Regard, >> > >> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > Architecture-discuss mailing list >> > > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org >> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss >> > >> > -- >> > Jay Daley >> > jay@daley.org.nz >> > +64 21 678840 >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Architecture-discuss mailing list >> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > --0000000000003b79de05a231041e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
n Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 6:56 PM Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> wrote:
Dea= r Toerless, Jay, Mirja, Lars, Eric &
architecture-discuss,

Thank you, I am reading yours=C2=A0

So, should we ingnore irrelevant things...?

Yes, we should = ignore irrelevant material but you should also stop posting irrelevant mate= rial to this list.

-Ekr





Regard,
Guntur Wiseno = Putra

Pada Rabu, 01 April 2020, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> menulis:
Thanks. I got a message that it= was awaiting moderator
approval, and for usually non-moderated lists that typically means
it won't get processed. Sorry if i double posted because of that
problem.

On Wed, Apr 01, 2020 at 08:27:03AM +1300, Jay Daley wrote:
>
>
> > On 1/04/2020, at 8:21 AM, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:
> >
> > architecture-discuss mailing list seems to be configured as to no= t allow
> > it to be Bcc'ed, so not easy to move a discussion. Appended h= er what
> > i sent.
>
> Your bcc worked.
>
> Jay
>
> >
> > Cheers
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Toerless
> >
> >> From tte@c= s.fau.de Tue Mar 31 21:08:45 2020
> > Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 21:08:45 +0200
> > From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs..fau.de>
> > To: opsawg@i= etf.org
> > Cc: Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
> > Bcc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org
> > In-Reply-To: <CAKi_AEuTOBDsUqqN-0= dOGiwXriSyf9zYrDrabx0e-ngWDPoXRA@mail.gmail.com>
> >
> > [Bcc: architecture-discuss]
> > [Thanks, Guntur for forwarding]
> >
> > Guntur got some negative responses on architecture-discuss for po= sting
> > the info below, i hope questions about this to opsawg will find a=
> > friendlier reception:
> >
> > - I thought it was great to see that ISOC engages in supporting > >=C2=A0 operations, i was not aware of this.
> >
> > - where would i have found an original announcement about somethi= ng like
> >=C2=A0 this ? isoc mailing list(s) i can subscribe to without pers= onally
> >=C2=A0 being a member to ISOC personally ?
> >
> > - I was wondering if there are actually any i* mailing lists for<= br> > >=C2=A0 operators to discuss ops, e.g.: whoever would take this cou= rse before
> >=C2=A0 or after (certainly beyond scope of opsawg).
> >
> >=C2=A0 I asked the email given on the isoc page, but got no respon= se
> >=C2=A0 (lea= rning@isoc.org).
> >
> > Cheers
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Toerless
> >
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Architecture-discuss mailing list
> >> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architect= ure-discuss
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 11:05:24PM +0700, Guntur Wiseno Putra wro= te:
> >> Dear architecture-discuss,
> >>
> >>
> >> An update on "Network Engineering" released by the = Internet Society --this
> >> information I formerly got from Kevin Chege, Internet Society= ..
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Online Course: Introduction to Network OperationsUNIX/Linux, = Networking &
> >> Domain Name System (DNS)The deadline for applications is 2 Ap= ril 2020.
> >>
> >> https://www.internetsociety.org/learning/netw= ork-operations/
> >>
> >>
> >> Regard,
> >> Guntur Wiseno Putra
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Architecture-discuss mailing list
> > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-= discuss
>
> --
> Jay Daley
> jay@daley.org.nz=
> +64 21 678840
>

_______________________________________________
Architecture-discuss mailing list
Architec= ture-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss
_______________________________________________
Architecture-discuss mailing list
Architec= ture-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/arc= hitecture-discuss
--0000000000003b79de05a231041e--

You have been invited to t= he following event.

[arch-d] Invite to webex si= de meeting 03/25, 8:00 AM on "New IP Architecture and Protocols".=

= When
Thu 26 Mar 2020= 01:00 =E2=80=93 02:00 New Zealand Time
Calendar
architecture-discuss@ietf.o= rg
Who
=
•
brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com- organiser
=
•
architecture-discuss@ietf.org
•
= chesteve@gmail.com
<= span style=3D"font-family:Courier New,monospace">•
tte@cs.fau.de
Dear colleagues

At IETF106, we had an inofficial IETF106 = side meeting on New-IP Research,
see https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting= /wiki/106sidemeetings

If you are interested to continue or join t= he discussion,
we would like to invite you to a followup, this time via = webex:

Meeting invite/info below.

Please contact us for comment= s and questions:
richard.li@futurewei.com, tte@cs.fau.de

Thank you
Toerless

----= -- https://etherpad.= wikimedia.org/p/v107-side-meeting
(backup at: https://bit.ly/2WvxZFn )

Meeting
Title: New IP A= rchitecture and Protocols Meeting
Time: 03/25/2020, 08:00 - 09:00 AM = PST [1500 - 1600 UTC] (extend to 9:30 if needed)
07= :30 - 08:00 AM PST [1430 - 1500 UTC...

Going (architecture-discuss@ietf.org)?   Yes - <= link itemprop=3D"method" href=3D"http://schema.org/HttpRequestMethod/GET"/>= Maybe - No    more options »

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You are receiving this courtesy email at the account architecture-= discuss@ietf.org because you are an attendee of this event.

To stop r= eceiving future updates for this event, decline this event. Alternatively, = you can sign up for a Google Account at https://www.google.com/calendar/ an= d control your notification settings for your entire calendar.

Forwar= ding this invitation could allow any recipient to send a response to the or= ganiser and be added to the guest list, invite others regardless of their o= wn invitation status or to modify your RSVP. Learn more.