From nobody Tue Jun 2 08:22:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E9423A092A for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2020 08:22:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CtsWqX5cr2_x for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2020 08:22:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x130.google.com (mail-lf1-x130.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::130]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 119933A09AB for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2020 08:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x130.google.com with SMTP id c21so6417946lfb.3 for ; Tue, 02 Jun 2020 08:22:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=f97JLAthysV9lkM7dixA0UY6TLhXX3y1fvL2ifnplYg=; b=Lta/EDYYrqtzuTQ9I481NAoEHlNwLyRrzOh+9kuYgNClT6CzmwX1jBt2sBqUNGguLj F64URKxg8/DHdxzkAMw5unJn+QvmKWF18zhu7s1HSdmlz/FuYGVqoot3ZYjm/aUVeqow CdhuqP2QaFwrOfXohBKBnhq0NhfR1PXmAOF+d+lTgknQWO2HIC49H7PdoJbplubeUxyI ciscqasZO3SY4qcULHU7TeliinVx4Ewmf/lin75+2D+8VgyGV5502FjDzP71N5SIktQM v/pwEvT4KVK/jUVfnyrpTJNzaSAH7ic3lYBAfCTHdL3Oz2yVWGj/YN4EHdsiBK71iXFX /hKQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=f97JLAthysV9lkM7dixA0UY6TLhXX3y1fvL2ifnplYg=; b=BlRx89/9s4BFRvztPQlRoj+0ov+XI+IIkzXDkk8BH3qoC/1tjMWr5WDCwbSPcnVSuQ 4RppdtJsFhizeo3TZA87NaQ3jRvwuUKYFOnl4Wzqdv6r2fQV9yugDTcaSLPhhRE5Pwf7 quHpfNWGEBZlyAU7YCE8YxIn6qwugBkXH6IsCEe0DTLwQU5CZ+DF9XWk7Hi3omnvBG3q Sfo9ruE4mTHLdbLqzY9spSsuZUglu5Jx57yO7ecjgKu2FfaG4vNrD5xryt0euJ6mEd7F TId6aNpHBtsNX1whqFgAyJt0f34IYC6NTl+ZjpHrPAmCeUmXgiTZj3Dn99jjBymUS51D o8sw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530XRR1XsmhAyZXAfK+WnOL7ZpjIL4YzgYjVhbiW7dlkX9rtyVpk rgg/203ExgstCMvczg5HNwboY1sxblVJdB0HknI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy6QNflTieR+5LZnQIughJgEglNkwUuvtXa3Ox9i4R5ORxPXMk1ket2oOnTO+mBqnFwX3XgsNNilYqc7G8Heww= X-Received: by 2002:a19:550e:: with SMTP id n14mr14432390lfe.81.1591111347241; Tue, 02 Jun 2020 08:22:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <158920530782.23655.6622928751672901506@ietfa.amsl.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20200512152625.124c1588@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20200512162358.0b239160@elandnews.com> <4548adba-834c-bfdd-36af-66b367408df8@cs.tcd.ie> <6.2.5.6.2.20200512191150.0bafa9a0@elandnews.com> <9161f68e-f51b-f97b-fc2b-372d24404209@cs.tcd.ie> <6.2.5.6.2.20200512232644.0d9328c8@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20200513081326.0ababe28@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20200513101502.0b0c7c90@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20200513140922.0aebf148@elandnews.com> <95025E53-BF51-4D37-8007-ADE2D79A4908@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 10:22:01 -0500 Message-ID: To: Mirja Kuehlewind Cc: Bob Hinden , S Moonesamy , architecture-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a6892f05a71b7ac8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Liaison reports (was: Domain-based Message Authentication, Reporting & Conformance (dmarc) WG Virtual Meeting: 2020-06-11) X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2020 15:22:36 -0000 --000000000000a6892f05a71b7ac8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Mirja, On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 7:18 AM Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > Hello Bob, > > Thanks for the proposal. I=E2=80=99ll check with the liaison shepherds an= d the > rest of the IAB to make sure we have document the current practice > correctly on this page and the IAB liaisons page. > Thanks for this, and thanks to SM for noticing. My recollection, which is not recent, is that most of the liaison managers don't do much, most of the time, *as long as things are going well. *There are exceptions. - I was on the IAB from 2010-2013, and ITU-T liaison managers were so busy that we split off a separate IAB program for ITU-T so that we had t= ime to pay attention to other SDOs. https://www.iab.org/activities/programs/concluded-programs/sdo-coordinat= ion-program/ - IEEE 802 and IETF had a well-understood working relationship ( https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4441) until enough people turned over that everyone forgot everything, and we had to repair the relationship w= ith the first (and so far only) IAB Joint Activity ( https://www.iab.org/activities/joint-activities/iab-ieee-coordination/), but most of that work doesn't flow through the formal liaison relationsh= ip - it's well-documented at https://www.iab.org/activities/joint-activities/iab-ieee-coordination/. - There is a 3GPP-IETF Coordination mailing list, with periodic meetings, but I'm not sure if that's publicly archived. That might be a candidate for a second IAB Joint Activity, with published minutes. But as we often say, if it's critical to work with the IETF through the formal liaison channels, that's not fast. I was told on a recent 3GPP SA2 teleconference that SA can't report out "3GPP requirements for IETF protocols" until the SA2 study item ENDS. Joint participation works best (and is more attractive now that most organizations aren't traveling to physical meetings). The IAB Joint Activities (formal and informal) seem to do a lot of heavy lifting. So I'm not sure how critical "liaison manager reports" are supposed to be. That's a good conversation for the IAB to think about, either as the IAB itself, or in the IAB SDO Coordination Program ( https://www.iab.org/activities/programs/iab-liaison-coordination-program/). Do The Right Thing, of course :-) Best, Spencer --000000000000a6892f05a71b7ac8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Mirja,=C2=A0

On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 7= :18 AM Mirja Kuehlewind <ietf@kue= hlewind.net> wrote:
Hello Bob,

Thanks for the proposal. I=E2=80=99ll check with the liaison shepherds and = the rest of the IAB to make sure we have document the current practice corr= ectly on this page and the IAB liaisons page.

Thanks for this, and thanks to SM for noticing.=C2=A0

=
My recollection, which is not recent, is that most of the liaiso= n managers don't do much, most of the time, as long as things are go= ing well. There are exceptions.=C2=A0
But as we often say, if it's critical to work with the I= ETF through the formal liaison channels, that's not fast. I was told on= a recent 3GPP SA2 teleconference that SA can't report out "3GPP r= equirements for IETF protocols" until the SA2 study item ENDS.=C2=A0

Joint participation works best (and is more attract= ive now that most organizations aren't traveling to physical meetings).= The IAB Joint Activities (formal and informal) seem to do a lot of heavy l= ifting. So I'm not sure how critical "liaison manager reports"= ; are supposed to be.=C2=A0

That's a goo= d conversation for the IAB to think about, either as the IAB itself, or in = the IAB SDO Coordination Program (https://www.iab.org/activities= /programs/iab-liaison-coordination-program/).=C2=A0

Do The Right Thing, of course :-)

Best,

Spencer
--000000000000a6892f05a71b7ac8-- From nobody Tue Jun 2 08:34:54 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 585093A0B37 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2020 08:34:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YvBgo-0AIQbq for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2020 08:34:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x22a.google.com (mail-lj1-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6F3AC3A0B42 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2020 08:34:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x22a.google.com with SMTP id n23so2390912ljh.7 for ; Tue, 02 Jun 2020 08:34:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=N2FAMcX853IskSkXoJXiAYTr/NyvGNopMm7bhn/5ML8=; b=tvZC8wo4TiQ0SXxT2gtVCjkPOq0JP/hC45P2MbNmpYoHSAErU6jwrDjs5vdk80Lg3Q 7qJtZ5rdA8Alnx0az6wXMIow7Mx0pQ4EoV+LyeH4BQqtb1ksPSqy7eceEcEf6rsHUnmr B9kgZpsXSpywt/24kGRTNqA383FX9tnpf2ynMMlVEctnjv0r25CZdy5WQV/P9Gfvmqoi 0GTthBuwtHOORj4BzOWSns69l9rhTM4iR/EoZQljQAnND6rqoUFUwTG/xT2uQ7Ge3E2H iNhw0QXTXJ/i5ytFU5cqTWRxTjgPOB0PQLpHpcnqyYeaNOT+qqxrM2hEM9feBdlaDQWG 6PfQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=N2FAMcX853IskSkXoJXiAYTr/NyvGNopMm7bhn/5ML8=; b=bKQPmY7vzhHpi96eaOPE72IMgGH1H5e7+dd6QB45ps/VhyOEkJ0hGgLvxtC7mUE2aB CzZ7QfiZkIohrWnnWKk65eBw942AU6fHHHlxvPlzlj5yx0j7yp35L6D6TABnF4ytU46e ywbVMOX9IGR75/zGNLzbgc9yLgyNJzBs8IBckVoGqtNwX15v7maAeEfZH9cbNKxmqzmE RbHa167vlEWBpZpoJPF6EtiLwgbJPP/hCCSA9q/eOSP/cmWLQjXbN+Wf8TUpvv7rV1PT H8t5PV25IxYJ1bxylONcVojy2Hq+E47ikcrIayVW7LkGaqPUROXA/3CYMA2U1KeNP0Dc WB/A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533W+OgMn+yDE19fArBv1pAPj+YUUIsiKcoBmdQi7ault+jekw6G kQmM9hm/4cCm1MryvWCb7asMLWM+0JAfwu3jvZI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxcr+vnc35zejX9ge9/v83uI8E5yiH/VVCmJIgtjlRaIP9GcgwZE71bORGkUlAEO1i4EEzwwopXVO3QkXDPVhg= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:974e:: with SMTP id f14mr297284ljj.102.1591112078542; Tue, 02 Jun 2020 08:34:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <158920530782.23655.6622928751672901506@ietfa.amsl.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20200512152625.124c1588@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20200512162358.0b239160@elandnews.com> <4548adba-834c-bfdd-36af-66b367408df8@cs.tcd.ie> <6.2.5.6.2.20200512191150.0bafa9a0@elandnews.com> <9161f68e-f51b-f97b-fc2b-372d24404209@cs.tcd.ie> <6.2.5.6.2.20200512232644.0d9328c8@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20200513081326.0ababe28@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20200513101502.0b0c7c90@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20200513140922.0aebf148@elandnews.com> <95025E53-BF51-4D37-8007-ADE2D79A4908@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2020 10:34:12 -0500 Message-ID: To: Alexandre Petrescu Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003d4d1c05a71ba63d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Liaison reports X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2020 15:34:52 -0000 --0000000000003d4d1c05a71ba63d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, Alexandre, On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:22 AM Alexandre Petrescu < alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote: > Hello, > > Are these liaison reports specific to architecture? > I didn't see an answer to this (did I miss it?), but in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2850#section-2, the IAB has six responsibilities, only one of which is architectural oversight. "External liaison" is the sixth chartered responsibility. (f) External Liaison The IAB acts as representative of the interests of the IETF and the Internet Society in technical liaison relationships with other organizations concerned with standards and other technical and organizational issues relevant to the world-wide Internet. Liaisons are kept as informal as possible and must be of demonstrable value in improving the quality of IETF specifications. Individual members of the IETF are appointed as liaisons to other organizations by the IAB or IESG as appropriate. So liaison manager reports aren't actually an architecture thing (unless something is going wrong), but they are an IAB thing. I should let current members of the IAB provide any followup, of course. Things do change. Best, Spencer --0000000000003d4d1c05a71ba63d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Alexandre,=C2=A0

On Tue, May 19, 2020= at 9:22 AM Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello,

Are these liaison reports specific to architecture?
I didn't see an answer to this (did I miss it?), but in=C2= =A0=C2=A0https://= tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2850#section-2, the IAB has six responsibilities= , only one of which is architectural oversight.=C2=A0

<= div>"External liaison" is the=C2=A0sixth chartered responsibility= .

  =
 (f) External Liaison

   The IAB acts as representative of the interests of the IETF and the
   Internet Society in technical liaison relationships with other
   organizations concerned with standards and other technical and
   organizational issues relevant to the world-wide Internet. Liaisons
   are kept as informal as possible and must be of demonstrable value in
   improving the quality of IETF specifications.  Individual members of
   the IETF are appointed as liaisons to other organizations by the IAB
   or IESG as appropriate.

So liaison manager reports aren't actually an architec=
ture thing (unless something is going wrong), but they are an IAB thing.

I should let current members of the IAB =
provide any followup, of course. Things do change. 

Best,

Spencer
--0000000000003d4d1c05a71ba63d-- From nobody Wed Jun 3 04:27:40 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D62B3A1027 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2020 04:27:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UzvyzgB1o37O for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2020 04:27:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F2C503A1029 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2020 04:27:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p200300dee7007a002482250a5b39ab6b.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e700:7a00:2482:250a:5b39:ab6b]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1jgRYT-0006Jo-3L; Wed, 03 Jun 2020 13:27:33 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2020 13:27:29 +0200 Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org, Spencer Dawkins at IETF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <995FC3AB-D65C-4858-AC2F-D1E31E854AD8@kuehlewind.net> References: <158920530782.23655.6622928751672901506@ietfa.amsl.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20200512152625.124c1588@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20200512162358.0b239160@elandnews.com> <4548adba-834c-bfdd-36af-66b367408df8@cs.tcd.ie> <6.2.5.6.2.20200512191150.0bafa9a0@elandnews.com> <9161f68e-f51b-f97b-fc2b-372d24404209@cs.tcd.ie> <6.2.5.6.2.20200512232644.0d9328c8@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20200513081326.0ababe28@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20200513101502.0b0c7c90@elandnews.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20200513140922.0aebf148@elandnews.com> <95025E53-BF51-4D37-8007-ADE2D79A4908@gmail.com> To: Alexandre Petrescu X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1591183656;fb9e23cf; X-HE-SMSGID: 1jgRYT-0006Jo-3L Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Liaison reports X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2020 11:27:38 -0000 Hi Alexandre, Sorry it seems that I have missed your mail and thanks Spencer for = chiming in! I assume your question was aiming at the subquestion if the = architecture-discuss list is the appropriate list to discuss this. As this came up as a side point from anther discussion on that list, I = kept the list in cc, so other people that have seen that question can = also see my reply.=20 The architecture-discuss list is further generally used for discussion = about IAB activities related questions and multiple IAB members read = this list frequently. However, people are of course also free to send = any of these kind of requests directly to the IAB . Mirja > On 2. Jun 2020, at 17:34, Spencer Dawkins at IETF = wrote: >=20 > Hi, Alexandre,=20 >=20 > On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 9:22 AM Alexandre Petrescu = wrote: > Hello, >=20 > Are these liaison reports specific to architecture? >=20 > I didn't see an answer to this (did I miss it?), but in = https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2850#section-2, the IAB has six = responsibilities, only one of which is architectural oversight.=20 >=20 > "External liaison" is the sixth chartered responsibility.. >=20 > (f) External Liaison >=20 > The IAB acts as representative of the interests of the IETF and the > Internet Society in technical liaison relationships with other > organizations concerned with standards and other technical and > organizational issues relevant to the world-wide Internet. Liaisons > are kept as informal as possible and must be of demonstrable value = in > improving the quality of IETF specifications. Individual members = of > the IETF are appointed as liaisons to other organizations by the = IAB > or IESG as appropriate. >=20 >=20 > So liaison manager reports aren't actually an architecture thing = (unless something is going wrong), but they are an IAB thing. >=20 > I should let current members of the IAB provide any followup, of = course. Things do change.=20 >=20 > Best, >=20 > Spencer > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss From nobody Sat Jun 27 23:01:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CC273A0B84 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 2020 23:00:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Orbd8YCPiScU for ; Sat, 27 Jun 2020 23:00:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd36.google.com (mail-io1-xd36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A6C673A0039 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 2020 23:00:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd36.google.com with SMTP id q8so13910437iow.7 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 2020 23:00:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=pphyk3DxPKmV1Lt7nluEue/4L+eGJgODfz/NeVCVRao=; b=kCZgyp8nQnmjYf+kr3D0qeqHTtN3w5YjN8R5EhAOBJ/rpm/CUp4iLN+NB4pdDz+ME8 r3zxRjKst43ZH7P46PGZaeZQjrcINhIQjtUbQRbNtxqYrwhDpk8UP4GeSO4KVrBniHJi ftu5qSTT0pP3XX8DhA1495Y847j/CJTlqH/iqAVFZygHGikfgFVFGwbxp/h01mI4i0FZ UAFmCO88mYpME2WPxHndP6gKIhCJ+TQDEdHMxFRx9I4QpqyejshprGaZEXnUMTMLs0pN dh0PIt923P+3jxazbM8YmLC0VkWB2RDUBCLEy9g+2qcdo5pIcIEe9EV6BXz1mTfkGv0t dAwA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=pphyk3DxPKmV1Lt7nluEue/4L+eGJgODfz/NeVCVRao=; b=n6C2RT52IseU0CRfq9ITrEjP3BVvn79l7a0I7CnealnzWgjB9+Tfbf1elo8dGCQ4s8 Q9fSG20jZUjbJPrwPcxlaa2+nUJARpREgnxaKRu+otTIJ03dJkJUjIitNnMy9p6E5vp2 a2LD4CEQmYVIQ6nkTiTi/YM4yvEgf3hK/YOCt822NRK4iEtJRc1EPPfLpLmIPOmby8Hl SKiMXk+CvyPcROhfaXFc2MAG405md5l0bOpoaLYijidQeGDnDuBsdWB/dXEN9cGkTQX0 80IsJ8k9EsZeYV85lznHKfrUpSt8ykjP894Q+QTYfeLwl2SJkewJhrOygtbGvWnFGqA/ hVLA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532tGdht1zb+BugcGfWQFWLyVEJSHZde39gkQ2zMGOQYBErTyhed mx/L7PxY20MkZEBb4muZ0lrdTMLjWK7sIJOH9Ws= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz6Eg+I7OVUaWFF/0aLbAyPLHWEiSKa8tb7WnX17Pnsh14jT9pxwJXIWSOONRBeNajOmOjD67Anpaxia8rjz3I= X-Received: by 2002:a02:7818:: with SMTP id p24mr12027288jac.131.1593324053665; Sat, 27 Jun 2020 23:00:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Rob Sayre Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2020 23:00:42 -0700 Message-ID: To: IETF discussion list , architecture-discuss@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003b1b8305a91eaa5e" Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] ETSI Liaison Work X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 06:00:58 -0000 --0000000000003b1b8305a91eaa5e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, I had some questions about why the IETF might establish a formal liaison relationship with ETSI, and why that might appear in IAB minutes, rather than in the IETF/IESG. The document in question is here: https://www.iab.org/documents/minutes/minutes-2020/iab-minutes-2020-05-27/ "3. ETSI Liaison Work Zhenbin Li suggested that the IETF might want to consider trying to establish a formal liaison with ETSI, noting a concern that there might be overlap between work in the IETF TEAS WG and the ETSI Industry Specification Group on Zero touch network and Service Management (ZSM). ... Zhenbin Li agreed to follow up with Deborah Brungard and the Routing Area Directors about whether there is need for a formal liaison relationship with ETSI, and report back to the IAB." ETSI had been unfamiliar to me, but I recently reviewed an ETSI application for a TLS code point assignment: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tls/bkx_bXcPSt_TwE7iJRM9acOQkDA/ I was surprised that the IETF would entertain a 99-page PDF that no individual signed their name to, but I do agree that code point assignment is not meant to be a gatekeeping mechanism. I did more research into ETSI after that, and this article turned up: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/02/ets-isnt-tls-and-you-shouldnt-use-it I would like to hear more from Zhenbin Li, Deborah Brungard, and the Routing Area Directors about this proposal. thanks, Rob --0000000000003b1b8305a91eaa5e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

I had some questions about why the IETF might e= stablish a formal liaison relationship with ETSI, and why that might appear= in IAB minutes, rather than in the IETF/IESG. The document in question is = here:

https://www.iab.org/documents/minutes/minutes-2020= /iab-minutes-2020-05-27/

"3. ETSI Liaison Work
Zhenbin L= i suggested that the IETF might want to consider trying to establish a form= al liaison with ETSI, noting a concern that there might be overlap between = work in the IETF TEAS WG and the ETSI Industry Specification Group on Zero = touch network and Service Management (ZSM).

...

Zhenbin Li ag= reed to follow up with Deborah Brungard and the Routing Area Directors abou= t whether there is need for a formal liaison relationship with ETSI, and re= port back to the IAB."

ETSI had been unfamiliar to me, but I re= cently reviewed an ETSI application for a TLS code point assignment:
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tls/bkx_bXcPSt_TwE7iJRM9acOQkDA/=

I was surprised that the IETF would entertain a 99-page PDF tha= t no individual signed their name to, but I do agree that code point assign= ment is not meant to be a gatekeeping mechanism.

I did more research= into ETSI after that, and this article turned up:

https= ://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/02/ets-isnt-tls-and-you-shouldnt-use-it
I would like to hear more from Zhenbin Li, Deborah Brungard, and the = Routing Area Directors about this proposal.

thanks,
Rob
--0000000000003b1b8305a91eaa5e-- From nobody Sun Jun 28 00:43:32 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D09003A0B92 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 00:43:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id neH6cbJUveNN for ; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 00:43:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x42b.google.com (mail-pf1-x42b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2550E3A07A8 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 00:43:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x42b.google.com with SMTP id f9so6570035pfn.0 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 00:43:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:date:message-id :references:cc:in-reply-to:to; bh=7GjYG4rpuBd6Jcu9xavhSKGi4w2gWOIU4iFdVZJ8LhU=; b=ui0WyLMP7pLkyo33pbcIjSMHm6ZdfI1oOKJVbEmeQiWTONj68NzxwQrwLraKgcEe6e P0iu35sisJBpfv5urdKgnlOmsf0WUE5wksehD3FXoi9T1AaLs/aMbCsCsSj9dKEDHQAb eYyCF2rLclswyzWVRciuIBh7e6FHY6EpokzK2G1+9yxLoz9yhu1grz2OKQPFEAcsJJ1L hlE2dVEvxjw4o0J+pOZOo9LaTjzF/KzKBbbUh3epK0RmsmWMoDZ10aIYAsNxfyuabv9z g5OKa8do1clrsV+Lb8dJ1I5D5QDpavXn/AwQ6qyTfSLd4Ev695qedn6axL9H1mZSUsnq zZmw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:date:message-id:references:cc:in-reply-to:to; bh=7GjYG4rpuBd6Jcu9xavhSKGi4w2gWOIU4iFdVZJ8LhU=; b=iZTGEelqeFvaAzJ1oK0HB8z79V2pwhpsTT+DDG2rex5Y706vxr4ItZRr3FM8/kbVNt m5f63nCSK8eWV12/FjzgbqUNoq7TNsPYiISkQks4lnMW8V9mWV3LDKC65wnNdZ9UntmW uEndOoOvr1nkaHKBiR9srTmULVnCf4y9JtB+HDzN7LoLxKG3iJO2QA6cr+ifyzIALgvg pKvdE/LDewke+r4MRh4jSl0QJCHN8622ypxQGMcLsglkvvPGo7A78ZlpQkBOX4jv92JB LoyoNJtcu4YXQn787GGGrjXmuk5s1CusGOUNP07kK6Z2bA7JbiHrzl0ZBob8XPWOpbRh H6cg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532O7cD4u7jzQQu/P0wCcQHTm/cc9JG44Hm1gf9IBsG24YYM/qqX hGX260whz+8fx7/vz0HOE5Y= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy12TRveqmX/OWMSnn5CKjPDCPZRcMmBxbr+Nfgo6C89EI65O/hC2lVO9XZFlThbG6eOVwGEg== X-Received: by 2002:a62:7c8f:: with SMTP id x137mr9800630pfc.174.1593330208628; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 00:43:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2600:8802:5800:652::1004? ([2600:8802:5800:652::1004]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u13sm8371416pjy.40.2020.06.28.00.43.27 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 28 Jun 2020 00:43:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker X-Google-Original-From: Fred Baker Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-73C050E9-0431-4751-8047-99AF2CCE8D0A Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 00:43:26 -0700 Message-Id: <89DB0039-690F-4486-8752-CE40AFF146C4@gmail.com> References: Cc: IETF discussion list , architecture-discuss@iab.org In-Reply-To: To: Rob Sayre X-Mailer: iPad Mail (17G5045c) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] ETSI Liaison Work X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 07:43:31 -0000 --Apple-Mail-73C050E9-0431-4751-8047-99AF2CCE8D0A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Besides the fact that liaisons have been IAB territory for ages? Sent from my iPad > On Jun 27, 2020, at 11:01 PM, Rob Sayre wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > Hi, >=20 > I had some questions about why the IETF might establish a formal liaison r= elationship with ETSI, and why that might appear in IAB minutes, rather than= in the IETF/IESG. The document in question is here: >=20 > https://www.iab.org/documents/minutes/minutes-2020/iab-minutes-2020-05-27/= >=20 > "3. ETSI Liaison Work > Zhenbin Li suggested that the IETF might want to consider trying to establ= ish a formal liaison with ETSI, noting a concern that there might be overlap= between work in the IETF TEAS WG and the ETSI Industry Specification Group o= n Zero touch network and Service Management (ZSM). >=20 > ... >=20 > Zhenbin Li agreed to follow up with Deborah Brungard and the Routing Area D= irectors about whether there is need for a formal liaison relationship with E= TSI, and report back to the IAB." >=20 > ETSI had been unfamiliar to me, but I recently reviewed an ETSI applicatio= n for a TLS code point assignment: > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tls/bkx_bXcPSt_TwE7iJRM9acOQkDA/ >=20 > I was surprised that the IETF would entertain a 99-page PDF that no indivi= dual signed their name to, but I do agree that code point assignment is not m= eant to be a gatekeeping mechanism. >=20 > I did more research into ETSI after that, and this article turned up: >=20 > https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/02/ets-isnt-tls-and-you-shouldnt-use-it= >=20 > I would like to hear more from Zhenbin Li, Deborah Brungard, and the Routi= ng Area Directors about this proposal. >=20 > thanks, > Rob --Apple-Mail-73C050E9-0431-4751-8047-99AF2CCE8D0A Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Besides the fact that liaisons have been IA= B territory for ages?

Sent from my iPad

On Jun 27, 2020, at 11:01 PM, Rob Sa= yre <sayrer@gmail.com> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
Hi,

I had some= questions about why the IETF might establish a formal liaison relationship w= ith ETSI, and why that might appear in IAB minutes, rather than in the IETF/= IESG. The document in question is here:

https://www.iab.or= g/documents/minutes/minutes-2020/iab-minutes-2020-05-27/

"3. ETSI= Liaison Work
Zhenbin Li suggested that the IETF might want to consider t= rying to establish a formal liaison with ETSI, noting a concern that there m= ight be overlap between work in the IETF TEAS WG and the ETSI Industry Speci= fication Group on Zero touch network and Service Management (ZSM).

..= .

Zhenbin Li agreed to follow up with Deborah Brungard and the Routin= g Area Directors about whether there is need for a formal liaison relationsh= ip with ETSI, and report back to the IAB."

ETSI had been unfamiliar t= o me, but I recently reviewed an ETSI application for a TLS code point assig= nment:
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tls/bkx_bXcPSt_TwE7iJ= RM9acOQkDA/

I was surprised that the IETF would entertain a 99-pa= ge PDF that no individual signed their name to, but I do agree that code poi= nt assignment is not meant to be a gatekeeping mechanism.

I did more r= esearch into ETSI after that, and this article turned up:

= https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/02/ets-isnt-tls-and-you-shouldnt-use-it

I would like to hear more from Zhenbin Li, Deborah Brungard, and t= he Routing Area Directors about this proposal.

thanks,
Rob
= --Apple-Mail-73C050E9-0431-4751-8047-99AF2CCE8D0A-- From nobody Sun Jun 28 00:46:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B37833A07A8 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 00:46:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ryXRWFlYr9Lx for ; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 00:46:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd30.google.com (mail-io1-xd30.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 271B93A0B92 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 00:46:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd30.google.com with SMTP id y2so14027996ioy.3 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 00:46:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=GRSzwoRFmgRGwB4y19s1IwcNuNW938l/5THP1aWmczY=; b=OpkcwOGt0SvzgATrww4mC6dLNDx0ClbAiLat3esINrlqOueTtA5hnPJqARFPehd0sR oCUZck/VIqHSKD1QQKwkzUL+z0Xd9cHIJmDKWM5OGMC46zjHSQha4ab+WgaTpKvAaQma +5OlqwX4hLyxFIwOlFxxrZ/4ERs+8Zre6zN6tj6fiykJk/8dOOLwfJL2Q/WW9vcV/MkB jNFdvaMZckkXFXWDUFUC4h0UeHlKOH0mlTCTorcr0pVU0FvTEyYPf7B/G4lQ63JXC6/+ HenIy+eU3sxIqKMWIIe1U5CPisKSVT+i9d1WqFcXlyxKH5OyHd0RsJW/uz8a1BqhATab 0KhA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=GRSzwoRFmgRGwB4y19s1IwcNuNW938l/5THP1aWmczY=; b=M+eW+3nZQBVniD3vos0g9P9r/YEav5hbpj6nF5edhEckw0Gk6dAgpnOgAURHuYu4pd 9CBsNa4p52OAw/a3+TdoPlFccAwAuvT+x7K/6x4fWs4uneVnKHXzqaR08ySVUaFu0CKc py+pRCQ481OiWYWqOhh1+9wuxwgi1ijh9YCM/w3J2mgUx3TCsrM2J3T8K9J9VRoIaWIe P6VolE584wCLz8YV8GeSULYZB55oEuUH6X0vb+MzijfW7zm2NEkN3RGHHv0KstjG2tED RvHCtvo6E7if0Oxu4f9gdb18fa4R0QtsdY39+cInXMOEqnB1tsQACVHYZusggvfBsGQG UkNQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532lbBTljGpKxy0PapCmRxqTOaYIw0J/h575sbyBRbxtYY6GAgpG 3gt/U8DvBmSU4ssjlagBxrfpEUFfER4Q1/kXZes= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxeuHwGHlOE++WMA6tcBgsGl0FDe8PmlZdVJaNYZ63ATQEkuhoRshcToNyBim/iHH5al1u8ZnTkDOEExfNxQew= X-Received: by 2002:a02:7818:: with SMTP id p24mr12287572jac.131.1593330394165; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 00:46:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <89DB0039-690F-4486-8752-CE40AFF146C4@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <89DB0039-690F-4486-8752-CE40AFF146C4@gmail.com> From: Rob Sayre Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 00:46:23 -0700 Message-ID: To: Fred Baker Cc: IETF discussion list , architecture-discuss@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002773e105a92024ae" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] ETSI Liaison Work X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 07:46:37 -0000 --0000000000002773e105a92024ae Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 12:43 AM Fred Baker wrote: > Besides the fact that liaisons have been IAB territory for ages? > This is a great response. thanks, Rob --0000000000002773e105a92024ae Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Besides the fact that liaisons= have been IAB territory for ages?

This is a great response.

thanks,
Rob= =C2=A0
--0000000000002773e105a92024ae-- From nobody Sun Jun 28 08:14:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ED843A095C; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 08:14:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.621 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.621 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.276, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uG10ByY0eKU9; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 08:14:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.proper.com (Opus1.Proper.COM [207.182.41.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AC3913A095B; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 08:14:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.32.60.41] (76-209-242-70.lightspeed.mtryca.sbcglobal.net [76.209.242.70]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.proper.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 05SFDJcR016136 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 28 Jun 2020 08:13:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.proper.com: Host 76-209-242-70.lightspeed.mtryca.sbcglobal.net [76.209.242.70] claimed to be [10.32.60.41] From: "Paul Hoffman" To: "Rob Sayre" Cc: "IETF discussion list" , architecture-discuss@iab.org Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 08:14:07 -0700 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.1r5671) Message-ID: <9407069F-19E1-4AC1-BE4D-B7D6F62CC34F@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] ETSI Liaison Work X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 15:14:14 -0000 On 27 Jun 2020, at 23:00, Rob Sayre wrote: > I had some questions about why the IETF might establish a formal > liaison > relationship with ETSI, and why that might appear in IAB minutes, > rather > than in the IETF/IESG. A longer, hopefully more helpful, response to this part of the question can be found at: https://www.iab.org/liaisons/ > "3. ETSI Liaison Work > Zhenbin Li suggested that the IETF might want to consider trying to > establish a formal liaison with ETSI, noting a concern that there > might be > overlap between work in the IETF TEAS WG and the ETSI Industry > Specification Group on Zero touch network and Service Management > (ZSM). Personally, I'm surprised that the IETF (through the IAB) does not have a liaison agreement with ETSI. The external liaison list is at: https://www.iab.org/liaisons/ Although there are always layer 8 and 9 reasons for having, or not having, liaison agreements, ETSI's work often plays into IETF's work in many different areas (I remember them from those always-entertaining PKIX days). --Paul Hoffman From nobody Sun Jun 28 14:00:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B04323A0F47 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 14:00:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jnVTKX2AI0VJ for ; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 14:00:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x436.google.com (mail-pf1-x436.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::436]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7BAC3A0F43 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 14:00:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x436.google.com with SMTP id 67so2939778pfg.5 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 14:00:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=1711eR1reGu8+aP6C9snHHi5P2AL0q6RlIykhwerF44=; b=spDvE1CiiO/9sTJTOfb67zWIdQuEUPd15VCF699IY6RNPSmhnXbxxnrjdiwrG7TDHS zhXu39PYXCUXea12WlcJQUrVm74rKbJL7FuwDnTYg9SclcqhPOn1EljtG3R/2fsuPfQe c9aERWX270AIGKcYosqI2qhCzhBBkThtDoxL2NXuPGmtN51gMgc+/m2sBT4+HQqBUEHH hvMzR1ZEt4G7qzlUJf+vFtEKPwS9g1FdVAfXuLIMPp5dL8tAVegmj69C5gcYMgP4gqIV 0ZnjrU6GLa6g879IPNpBJhQ/vnL/9zAtiFFEG2QkSbEC2Zf1DfHnxjDjOJB4AKF9nzRt cWXA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=1711eR1reGu8+aP6C9snHHi5P2AL0q6RlIykhwerF44=; b=cDjOuFNYNhLESRx2tVW+88L21g9NoDzeYapUvCWnlh0UkpPvQQ8BlfwpQeEF18Z9lF a7rkU00qvm7b2vV4z958zwRpY9osqB26Le72WdJuEJcxbgP8TL12FbGrfcYlqaKI4ekc UnziC1J8zAVZeToSQwIo/EGNwCsNaVCBtkB37oK0oldSEttGYdYq2K4quKVA41i6wfAp 4dfJpxxygLId6fn+GjA6sWnB9oYWyU9Y0L7y238TPxnPE9aPGuAvUfIRW+LMtx16bNfT NIMhVRDJtK0pRGdLKC1SAruQO01ZAYEatkM2RJcDi+CGLKN6NpJLQ6J+soYrZKBimAAP 9vyQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530tocOZCGIAnBsdpieL+8Oap6eTMnJa8AaPA7kSZ+AYAomG0CQr 8H3FJV9Ty3qOqH/xjltLsTk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzBD6LNtLGYS+7g0m0Q94AFhtStriJe2atHJvF1hut2XE9rMJICLYlQ7MjE54oWDOoqDASaqw== X-Received: by 2002:a63:4f1b:: with SMTP id d27mr7443383pgb.389.1593378016192; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 14:00:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] (203.90.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.90.203]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a16sm26651338pgj.27.2020.06.28.14.00.13 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 28 Jun 2020 14:00:15 -0700 (PDT) To: Paul Hoffman , Rob Sayre Cc: architecture-discuss@iab.org, IETF discussion list References: <9407069F-19E1-4AC1-BE4D-B7D6F62CC34F@vpnc.org> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2020 09:00:13 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9407069F-19E1-4AC1-BE4D-B7D6F62CC34F@vpnc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] ETSI Liaison Work X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 21:00:19 -0000 On 29-Jun-20 03:14, Paul Hoffman wrote: > On 27 Jun 2020, at 23:00, Rob Sayre wrote: > >> I had some questions about why the IETF might establish a formal >> liaison >> relationship with ETSI, and why that might appear in IAB minutes, >> rather >> than in the IETF/IESG. > > A longer, hopefully more helpful, response to this part of the question > can be found at: > https://www.iab.org/liaisons/ In fact, discussion between the IAB (on behalf of the IETF) and ETSI goes back at least to 1998 and there was a lot of collaboration over the years, either direct or through 3GPP. Around 1998/1999, the IAB was reluctant to establish formal liaisons except with global-scope SDOs, and ETSI was still perceived then as regional (E = Europe), so we didn't. But that argument possibly doesn't apply today, and it seems reasonable for the IAB to discuss the question. Liaison does not of course mean agreeing with what the other SDO does, but it does make review and comment of each others' work more prominent. Regards Brian > >> "3. ETSI Liaison Work >> Zhenbin Li suggested that the IETF might want to consider trying to >> establish a formal liaison with ETSI, noting a concern that there >> might be >> overlap between work in the IETF TEAS WG and the ETSI Industry >> Specification Group on Zero touch network and Service Management >> (ZSM). > > Personally, I'm surprised that the IETF (through the IAB) does not have > a liaison agreement with ETSI. The external liaison list is at: > https://www.iab.org/liaisons/ > > Although there are always layer 8 and 9 reasons for having, or not > having, liaison agreements, ETSI's work often plays into IETF's work in > many different areas (I remember them from those always-entertaining > PKIX days). > > --Paul Hoffman > > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > From nobody Sun Jun 28 14:03:44 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBFBE3A0F49 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 14:03:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rTf9czuLvJ3T for ; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 14:03:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x130.google.com (mail-il1-x130.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::130]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 994433A0F47 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 14:03:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x130.google.com with SMTP id i18so12795186ilk.10 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 14:03:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=rtTatV6C/R93PxcpPJ3oT62j8qilgzHey6DBcbwsNbM=; b=P6+W8YrRmcFBpZn//y1xZi+lPMjGPL1F/5LdM9uIWtPKlilNoSWYKC791K48YgjJ5S j0ehNhxmBc3JvQgTgjn1TLgsAeN/Q8FTMVvtgIS3bDlihlhfVKK29cB2t70xBpACEptx U3j4lAlKJuhbPha1SboOinjZ7QhQRp6q35vsz/FgOsG7KTT50SXiPBpuogI4s8tFtkRA ZGrdSAMfiWc10byEZ7jXTIj8xioMBfPN6JZBH4RO3WXF65xQU5aoQ9Xe+TUtJN9Tv1M7 SRKYSQkff7+MNRxWwj527DfXD6SAObxlOQAXHf58rmXypV88jjZX/KSNEgxFQv2Js4u6 +ZPw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=rtTatV6C/R93PxcpPJ3oT62j8qilgzHey6DBcbwsNbM=; b=XKpHKvzb/V9F+6gsyRvim65lJBTo/SF/N+xq8RthZX2Mlk2y84v6Rs5RbpXT2w4SVX 1mhH1x5mibdmQibE8Q9Mlp4Ho2O2j7+1ztYBgI5IZ5vDyRWRm55n2do6YnrU5Ym1Y44q DmmVnUwBpsRoUOfkPykahFg7FFqTjt9ax5UVWcvVSe38VWjg1ICWlb/r1oSwuZNBFLmi FiY4An5yFzDj1qc9r7aJfwWoHN5QiheVI3vOrJbAIKswE7wjlSnsKrmIZizZitaCEoSp JxT2EZStFRWFyYhBK/5DE7U/LJzR3wnkwnPU2PNxVQv/ZytK1s7D/uKL1k89XSaM/Njb JEdA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5326QlQQN3vrWhfdf9QZrCHPj94rHqXujclTh8qjHHIvWxxnFNQw uymsmIoC7WC0pzyGKeDvmZn6c64awU3MEW9ld98= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy3cxeH++1mQ/O2Vdz0fcMHjmWZ8aUYBcO/hlWAJ8r5Rlgpgua6t44FzGHG6wlclakW6u4C71+sjVXAcpjJ50w= X-Received: by 2002:a92:cf06:: with SMTP id c6mr13315155ilo.73.1593378220924; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 14:03:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9407069F-19E1-4AC1-BE4D-B7D6F62CC34F@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: <9407069F-19E1-4AC1-BE4D-B7D6F62CC34F@vpnc.org> From: Rob Sayre Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 14:03:30 -0700 Message-ID: To: Paul Hoffman Cc: IETF discussion list , architecture-discuss@iab.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d9e66605a92b46f9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] ETSI Liaison Work X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 21:03:43 -0000 --000000000000d9e66605a92b46f9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 8:14 AM Paul Hoffman wrote: > > Although there are always layer 8 and 9 reasons for having, or not > having, liaison agreements, ... > Yes. This is the substance of my question. thanks, Rob PS - I used the word "reviewed", but I should have written "read and commented", since no one asked me to do anything. :) --000000000000d9e66605a92b46f9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 8:14 AM Paul Hoff= man <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org&= gt; wrote:

Although there are always layer 8 and 9 reasons for having, or not
having, liaison agreements, ...

Yes. Th= is is the substance of my question.=C2=A0

thanks,<= /div>
Rob

PS - I used the word "reviewed&= quot;, but I should have written "read and commented", since no o= ne asked me to do anything. :)
--000000000000d9e66605a92b46f9-- From nobody Sun Jun 28 20:43:19 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD2623A07AC for ; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 20:43:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id axxosJEMcIiC for ; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 20:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x330.google.com (mail-ot1-x330.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::330]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2F6F93A07A9 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 20:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x330.google.com with SMTP id w17so6332693otl.4 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 20:43:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=y61AsxQzq/1dXYBYFMNrXrep6u9QcsuQhrKpOvPHifs=; b=LlCVA7f84L5QHw/ZwtOYFb9QsBnow9VZ/6UmOSYFNy6dLD0Eir8/x2ZOBcOtEx2bcp mHbKBKs1KAXdTdA5NWmEJ5JxXOwtIozw2vLCLcaEnkZT+pM2Xgu8IYQ3ZsMFVB+zzl2o dW81BRvcCG7Li4x0kVY7pXEiC9wlR/ZrcBxlxAmiF4UDws+vGotNHG6uAdJn3teZorPa R9DCU5Q/N66fb70Yq+382WhNDuSHbMu+pRdEVqnDiCzECTEUx4n5sAKrlziIgZUF4YYl fuq6ir9AYAieh++7145zTXGZpSTz0C1JagZsoogJhyJEJZ5OmidC5q1OkIQPt+HOEOd9 45OQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=y61AsxQzq/1dXYBYFMNrXrep6u9QcsuQhrKpOvPHifs=; b=d+ogu3eJL5M5A2CDOn7xqbMkeyV48R1mXLZoUc31IAmcnSOjvFYcNsMbzrNUBnbGmf m/XnQuEwzKZ4I+skKOXMnC944CBf6lu0qex+eu4091ym2Ev08XjYil/UDLCLztDSSk5y +XrZXZR0F72t1KQ9npu/RqhQmDd8zMZRSK7OMDRycqHUke3sfntcjr05qSzQbtkX4xB6 DCvY3hagjlIUzQbMMyx1AVlhEQfe8fw/08HR+i1r/7YkxK9nxRXTOE4HbzjFxmQimosG IAGkZH6vspzE3Z5b5rhFr8LLZRacwhrhXwnsi6BJvcQQccBRjrl6cWpmr3eb8RXRf0x/ fOWQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532RnP+k+1Z+2d7EFRr8FR28XXs1HhC4s+a3pMfPoMy4hTFeKM/m 2YL1VYlZn8+Glq37d/bFX8SVaNaXgdHO83jMjto= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwC0xkzBCgJCa68Ong9VqPVDzHO7D0ei+1MrnwDZTHg+zLap9iEZtzVNvX02RFeSDyAAH1/LDM67JOOS64tVZU= X-Received: by 2002:a4a:a64b:: with SMTP id j11mr8760370oom.24.1593402195422; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 20:43:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a9d:3449:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Sun, 28 Jun 2020 20:43:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <9407069F-19E1-4AC1-BE4D-B7D6F62CC34F@vpnc.org> From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2020 10:43:15 +0700 Message-ID: To: Rob Sayre Cc: Paul Hoffman , "architecture-discuss@iab.org" , IETF discussion list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d7b29105a930db70" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] ETSI Liaison Work X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2020 03:43:18 -0000 --000000000000d7b29105a930db70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear Rob & architecture-discuss, Adding a collection of references on "ETSI" having not been mentioned so far in this thread: (By the help of the search engine available at "liaison statements" for "ETSI":) Total Statements: 94 https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/posted/?text=ETSI&source=&destination=&start_date=&end_date= Regard, Guntur Wiseno Putra Pada Senin, 29 Juni 2020, Rob Sayre menulis: > On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 8:14 AM Paul Hoffman > wrote: > >> >> Although there are always layer 8 and 9 reasons for having, or not >> having, liaison agreements, ... >> > > Yes. This is the substance of my question. > > thanks, > Rob > > PS - I used the word "reviewed", but I should have written "read and > commented", since no one asked me to do anything. :) > --000000000000d7b29105a930db70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Rob &
architecture-discuss,


<= div>Adding a collection of references on "ETSI" having not been m= entioned so far in this thread:

(By the help of th= e search engine available at "liaison statements" for "ETSI&= quot;:)
Total Statements: 94


<= div>https://da= tatracker.ietf.org/liaison/posted/?text=3DETSI&source=3D&destinatio= n=3D&start_date=3D&end_date=3D

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Senin, 29 Jun= i 2020, Rob Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com<= /a>> menulis:

Although there are always layer 8 and 9 reasons for having, or not
having, liaison agreements, ...

Yes. Th= is is the substance of my question.=C2=A0

thanks,<= /div>
Rob

PS - I used the word "reviewed&= quot;, but I should have written "read and commented", since no o= ne asked me to do anything. :)
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Amazing work, thank you!

thanks,
<= div>Rob

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 8:43 PM Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Rob &
architec= ture-discuss,


Adding a collection of = references on "ETSI" having not been mentioned so far in this thr= ead:

(By the help of the search engine available a= t "liaison statements" for "ETSI":)
Total Sta= tements: 94




<= div>Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Senin, 29 Juni 2020, = Rob Sayre <sayrer@= gmail.com> menulis:
On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 8:14 AM Paul= Hoffman <pau= l.hoffman@vpnc.org> wrote:

Although there are always layer 8 and 9 reasons for having, or not
having, liaison agreements, ...

Yes. Th= is is the substance of my question.=C2=A0

thanks,<= /div>
Rob

PS - I used the word "reviewed&= quot;, but I should have written "read and commented", since no o= ne asked me to do anything. :)
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Mon, 29 Jun 2020 14:53:44 +0800 (CST) Received: from DGGEMM512-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.204]) by DGGEMM406-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.214]) with mapi id 14.03.0487.000; Mon, 29 Jun 2020 14:53:43 +0800 From: Lizhenbin To: Rob Sayre CC: IETF discussion list , "architecture-discuss@iab.org" Thread-Topic: ETSI Liaison Work Thread-Index: AQHWTRGjUXGewUz24UmVNs9y8X6LVKjvGzE0 Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2020 06:53:43 +0000 Message-ID: <5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D937A0DCD@dggemm512-mbs.china.huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.153.180.83] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D937A0DCDdggemm512mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogRVRTSSBMaWFpc29uIFdvcms=?= X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2020 06:54:08 -0000 --_000_5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D937A0DCDdggemm512mbschi_ Content-Type: text/plain; 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charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Rob,

Thank very much for paying attention to the work. Please refer to my rep= ly inline identified by '[Robin]'.

 

Best Regards,

Zhenbin (Robin)

 

 

 

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: ietf [ietf-bounces@iet= f.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Rob Sayre [sayrer@gmail.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2020=C4=EA6=D4=C228=C8=D5 14:00
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: IETF discussion list; architecture-discuss@iab.o= rg
=D6=F7=CC=E2: ETSI Liaison Work

Hi,

I had some questions about why the IETF might establish a formal liaison re= lationship with ETSI, and why that might appear in IAB minutes, rather than= in the IETF/IESG. The document in question is here:

https://www.iab.o= rg/documents/minutes/minutes-2020/iab-minutes-2020-05-27/

"3. ETSI Liaison Work
Zhenbin Li suggested that the IETF might want to consider trying to establi= sh a formal liaison with ETSI, noting a concern that there might be overlap= between work in the IETF TEAS WG and the ETSI Industry Specification Group= on Zero touch network and Service Management (ZSM).

...

Zhenbin Li agreed to follow up with Deborah Brungard and the Routing Area D= irectors about whether there is need for a formal liaison relationship with= ETSI, and report back to the IAB."
[Robin] Thanks Paul to propose the following link which ex= plains why IAB discussed the work.
 
In addition, since there is no formal liaison between IETF= and IAB and I work for the Liaison Oversight Program, I took the work= to investigate the requirements for the liaison with IETF.
 
 
 

ETSI had been unfamiliar to me, but I recently reviewed an ETSI application= for a TLS code point assignment:
https://mailarchive.i= etf.org/arch/msg/tls/bkx_bXcPSt_TwE7iJRM9acOQkDA/

I was surprised that the IETF would entertain a 99-page PDF that no individ= ual signed their name to, but I do agree that code point assignment is not = meant to be a gatekeeping mechanism.

I did more research into ETSI after that, and this article turned up:

https://www.eff.o= rg/deeplinks/2019/02/ets-isnt-tls-and-you-shouldnt-use-it
[Robin] In fact the discussion for the liaison work&n= bsp;is triggered by Daniele Ceccarelli (CCAMP WG Chair) this time. He asked= if IETF needs to set up the liaison because of he had = seen requests coming from NFV, ZSM and the new working group on security (don't remember the name) in ETSI which has a very high= overlap with what we're doing in TEAS, CCAMP, OPSAWG. After discussio= n in the IAB meeting, it is suggested to discuss with Deborah and the = routing ADs about the need. That is the reason why the RTG area is mentioned specially.
In the IAB meeting held on June 17, the need was discussed= according to the feedback from Daniele Ceccarelli, Gonzalo Camarillo and D= eborah Brungard and my collected information on the organization of ETSI. I= t seems that there is no need from Routing for a formal liaison relationship with ETSI at the working level.&= nbsp;And the IAB discussed that there seems not much need to set up the hig= her level liaison with ETSI temporarily.
I think your proposed reference is very helpful to underst= and more about the possible liaison work between ETSI and IETF. I= will go on to collect these feedback and propose them for IAB to evaluate.= More suggestions on the work are welcome. 
 
 
 

I would like to hear more from Zhenbin Li, Deborah Brungard, and the Routin= g Area Directors about this proposal.

thanks,
Rob
--_000_5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D937A0DCDdggemm512mbschi_-- From nobody Mon Jun 29 01:30:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D789A3A0C87 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 2020 01:30:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TRGmDgWqud8q for ; Mon, 29 Jun 2020 01:30:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga01-in.huawei.com [45.249.212.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4173C3A0C8A for ; Mon, 29 Jun 2020 01:30:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DGGEMM401-HUB.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.30.72.54]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 21B233E12FEDB63D329E; Mon, 29 Jun 2020 16:30:23 +0800 (CST) Received: from DGGEMM512-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.204]) by DGGEMM401-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.209]) with mapi id 14.03.0487.000; Mon, 29 Jun 2020 16:30:21 +0800 From: Lizhenbin To: Guntur Wiseno Putra , Rob Sayre CC: "architecture-discuss@iab.org" , "Paul Hoffman" , IETF discussion list Thread-Topic: [arch-d] ETSI Liaison Work Thread-Index: AQHWTRGjUXGewUz24UmVNs9y8X6LVKjtnUmAgABhnQCAAG+xgIAA1V7Q Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2020 08:30:21 +0000 Message-ID: <5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D937A0E42@dggemm512-mbs.china.huawei.com> References: <9407069F-19E1-4AC1-BE4D-B7D6F62CC34F@vpnc.org> , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.153.180.83] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D937A0E42dggemm512mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogIEVUU0kgTGlhaXNvbiBXb3Jr?= X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2020 08:30:30 -0000 --_000_5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D937A0E42dggemm512mbschi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgR3VudHVyLA0KDQpJdCBpcyB2ZXJ5IGhlbHBmdWwuIFRoYW5rcyB2ZXJ5IG11Y2guDQoNCkkg d2lsbCBnbyB0aHJvdWdoIHRoZXNlIGxpYWlzb24gYW5kIGdvIG9uIHRvIHN1bW1hcml6ZSB0aGUg bmVlZCBmb3IgdGhlIEVUU0kgTGlhaXNvbiB3b3JrLg0KDQoNCg0KDQoNCkJlc3QgUmVnYXJkcywN Cg0KWmhlbmJpbiAoUm9iaW4pDQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KDQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fXw0Kt6K8/sjLOiBBcmNoaXRlY3R1cmUtZGlzY3VzcyBbYXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJl LWRpc2N1c3MtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10gtPqx7SBHdW50dXIgV2lzZW5vIFB1dHJhIFtnc2Vu b3B1QGdtYWlsLmNvbV0NCreiy83KsbzkOiAyMDIwxOo21MIyOcjVIDExOjQzDQrK1bz+yMs6IFJv YiBTYXlyZQ0Ks63LzTogYXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJlLWRpc2N1c3NAaWFiLm9yZzsgUGF1bCBIb2ZmbWFu OyBJRVRGIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gbGlzdA0K1vfM4jogUmU6IFthcmNoLWRdIEVUU0kgTGlhaXNvbiBX b3JrDQoNCkRlYXIgUm9iICYNCmFyY2hpdGVjdHVyZS1kaXNjdXNzLA0KDQoNCkFkZGluZyBhIGNv bGxlY3Rpb24gb2YgcmVmZXJlbmNlcyBvbiAiRVRTSSIgaGF2aW5nIG5vdCBiZWVuIG1lbnRpb25l ZCBzbyBmYXIgaW4gdGhpcyB0aHJlYWQ6DQoNCihCeSB0aGUgaGVscCBvZiB0aGUgc2VhcmNoIGVu Z2luZSBhdmFpbGFibGUgYXQgImxpYWlzb24gc3RhdGVtZW50cyIgZm9yICJFVFNJIjopDQpUb3Rh bCBTdGF0ZW1lbnRzOiA5NA0KDQoNCmh0dHBzOi8vZGF0YXRyYWNrZXIuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbGlhaXNv bi9wb3N0ZWQvP3RleHQ9RVRTSSZzb3VyY2U9JmRlc3RpbmF0aW9uPSZzdGFydF9kYXRlPSZlbmRf ZGF0ZT0NCg0KDQpSZWdhcmQsDQpHdW50dXIgV2lzZW5vIFB1dHJhDQoNClBhZGEgU2VuaW4sIDI5 IEp1bmkgMjAyMCwgUm9iIFNheXJlIDxzYXlyZXJAZ21haWwuY29tPG1haWx0bzpzYXlyZXJAZ21h aWwuY29tPj4gbWVudWxpczoNCk9uIFN1biwgSnVuIDI4LCAyMDIwIGF0IDg6MTQgQU0gUGF1bCBI b2ZmbWFuIDxwYXVsLmhvZmZtYW5AdnBuYy5vcmc8bWFpbHRvOnBhdWwuaG9mZm1hbkB2cG5jLm9y Zz4+IHdyb3RlOg0KDQpBbHRob3VnaCB0aGVyZSBhcmUgYWx3YXlzIGxheWVyIDggYW5kIDkgcmVh c29ucyBmb3IgaGF2aW5nLCBvciBub3QNCmhhdmluZywgbGlhaXNvbiBhZ3JlZW1lbnRzLCAuLi4N Cg0KWWVzLiBUaGlzIGlzIHRoZSBzdWJzdGFuY2Ugb2YgbXkgcXVlc3Rpb24uDQoNCnRoYW5rcywN ClJvYg0KDQpQUyAtIEkgdXNlZCB0aGUgd29yZCAicmV2aWV3ZWQiLCBidXQgSSBzaG91bGQgaGF2 ZSB3cml0dGVuICJyZWFkIGFuZCBjb21tZW50ZWQiLCBzaW5jZSBubyBvbmUgYXNrZWQgbWUgdG8g ZG8gYW55dGhpbmcuIDopDQo= --_000_5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D937A0E42dggemm512mbschi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Guntur,

It is very helpful. Thanks very much.

I will go through these liaison and go on to summarize the need for the = ETSI Liaison work.

 

 

Best Regards,

Zhenbin (Robin)

 

 

 

 

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Architecture-discuss [= architecture-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Guntur Wiseno Putra [gs= enopu@gmail.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2020=C4=EA6=D4=C229=C8=D5 11:43
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Rob Sayre
=B3=AD=CB=CD: architecture-discuss@iab.org; Paul Hoffman; IETF discu= ssion list
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [arch-d] ETSI Liaison Work

Dear Rob &
architecture-discuss,


Adding a collection of references on "ETSI" having not been = mentioned so far in this thread:

(By the help of the search engine available at "liaison statement= s" for "ETSI":)
Total Statements: 94




Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Senin, 29 Juni 2020, Rob Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> men= ulis:
On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 8:14 AM Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> wrote:

Although there are always layer 8 and 9 reasons for having, or not
having, liaison agreements, ...

Yes. This is the substance of my question. 

thanks,
Rob

PS - I used the word "reviewed", but I should have written &= quot;read and commented", since no one asked me to do anything. :)
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