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Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Question List for APN: Q#8 X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 07:17:02 -0000 --_000_0640dcf0b60249b1aac6527be43b1927Nkomno_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RGVhciBTaHVwaW5nLCBkZWFyIGFsbCwNCg0KTWFueSB0aGFua3MgZm9yIGVsYWJvcmF0aW5nIHRo ZSBkaWZmZXJlbnQgcXVlc3Rpb25zIHJlZ2FyZGluZyBBUE4uIEkgd291bGQgbGlrZSB0byBzaGFy ZSBzb21lIGZvb2QgZm9yIHRob3VnaHQgcmVnYXJkaW5nIHF1ZXN0aW9uIDguDQoNCk5ldCBuZXV0 cmFsaXR5IGNvbWVzIGluIGRpZmZlcmVudCBmbGF2b3VycywgYW5kIHdoaWxlIHNvbWUgdW5kZXJz dGFuZHMgbmV0IG5ldXRyYWxpdHkgYXMgYWxsIHRyYWZmaWMgYmVpbmcgdHJlYXRlZCBlcXVhbGx5 IHdpdGhpbiBvbmUgc2luZ2xlIHRyYWZmaWMgY2xhc3MgKHVzdWFsbHkgbGFiZWxsZWQg4oCcYmVz 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b=oL433ZCpJvg/cDWboMkwZxxQwSnArgP/tCoebnUhudZJfKPRY0/zgAT5PYRVZYWUH r/+HdEzaCkZr/Z8+lSuAcjtR48w9aW4WxGKisXsszS+6nfMiHUOFVMuYjcX5IiBBDT vTz5hhRKWMl5NqxNEKE2kB4KhA7yKJP29QVR1SQUBbW6il8mzUrQhtMIkepvDgOuZB 5Bgpm3Flj/k7P2e3u8au7gl6lsXwVvzDpEHB/JIwlmc83XJNHfmWVsKi/7OXLsN98q 87DUR5VC0XU/EZ1gPw3B8WQ0nLCaxISdIquqt1ccGLgv5wPwjZmtEOqtEG3OdxgRtG dYln/Krf6SCgw== Received: from appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com (appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com [10.20.28.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CEEFB3C0243; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 10:13:42 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 10:13:42 +0200 (CEST) From: Vittorio Bertola To: =?UTF-8?Q?S=C3=B8rensen=2C_Frode?= , "Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)" , "apn@ietf.org" Cc: "architecture-discuss@iab.org" , "network-tokens@ietf.org" Message-ID: <520064543.3360.1601540022746@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <0640dcf0b60249b1aac6527be43b1927@Nkom.no> References: <4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE19435D07@dggeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <0640dcf0b60249b1aac6527be43b1927@Nkom.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3358_2096005527.1601540022732" X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.4-Rev10 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Question List for APN: Q#8 X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 08:13:49 -0000 ------=_Part_3358_2096005527.1601540022732 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Il 01/10/2020 09:16 S=C3=B8rensen, Frode ha = scritto: >=20 >=20 > E.g. regarding the European net neutrality regulation it is commonly = understood that multiple traffic classes/QoS classes with different perform= ance levels could be accepted =E2=80=93 as long as the traffic classes are = application-agnostic, which means that any application may populate any tra= ffic class as selected by the end-user. >=20 > In this regard it is essential that the end-user controls the select= ion of QoS level, and that this is not controlled by the ISP, nor indirectl= y controlled by the application provider. The ISP offers the different QoS = levels, and the end-user requests the QoS level for the application=E2=80= =99s traffic over the internet access service. >=20 ISPs can also differentiate QoS on their own, as long as this is done "only= on the basis of objectively different technical quality of service require= ments (for example, in terms of latency, jitter, packet loss, and bandwidth= ) of the specific categories of traffic, and not on the basis of commercial= considerations" (Recital 9 of the regulation). If an ISP wants to prioriti= ze video streaming over other traffic they can do so, as long as they do so= for all video streaming providers in the same way and they don't get paid = for this. Moreover, these European guidelines are then applied at the national level,= so there are considerable differences across countries; and several ISPs j= ust pretend they don't exist, e.g. with regard to "zero rating" offers. --=20 Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com mailto:vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com= =20 Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy ------=_Part_3358_2096005527.1601540022732 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 =20

Il 01/10/2020 09:16 S=C3=B8rensen, Frode <frode.sorensen@nkom.no>= ha scritto:

E.g. regarding the European net neutrality regulation it is co= mmonly understood that multiple traffic classes/QoS classes with different = performance levels could be accepted =E2=80=93 as long as the traffic class= es are application-agnostic, which means that any application may populate = any traffic class as selected by the end-user.

 In this regard it is essential that the end-user controls the s= election of QoS level, and that this is not controlled by the ISP, nor indi= rectly controlled by the application provider. The ISP offers the different= QoS levels, and the end-user requests the QoS level for the application=E2= =80=99s traffic over the internet access service.

ISPs can also d= ifferentiate QoS on their own, as long as this is done "only on the basis o= f objectively different technical quality of service requirements (for exam= ple, in terms of latency, jitter, packet loss, and bandwidth) of the specif= ic categories of traffic, and not on the basis of commercial considerations= " (Recital 9 of the regulation). If an ISP wants to prioritize video stream= ing over other traffic they can do so, as long as they do so for all video = streaming providers in the same way and they don't get paid for this.

Moreover, these= European guidelines are then applied at the national level, so there are c= onsiderable differences across countries; and several ISPs just pretend the= y don't exist, e.g. with regard to "zero rating" offers.

--=20 
Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open=
-Xchange
vittorio.b=
ertola@open-xchange.com 
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Ital=
y
------=_Part_3358_2096005527.1601540022732-- From nobody Thu Oct 1 01:22:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E45BB3A0E37 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 01:22:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DzmFa-tjo-Hr for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 01:22:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-1.cisco.com (aer-iport-1.cisco.com [173.38.203.51]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 210AC3A0E31 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 01:22:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=34324; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1601540528; x=1602750128; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc: to:references; bh=bvtCmkefE5FpiaHYkRZAD9+AWM1Kt3k3cE8j0EkuHBo=; b=OQHmIT/CH5XVGswN9Ff9wulq9lulGrcHJrkoYbHNOIactD6ZI1B17/rE qCbvXik+bUsQzFvw8ET1STfjT/IzTMsWQ6aI0hWnMtcsWbcsQeg7Oebn6 Euitp9DEhgw1M3lEAzg6Zb7N+I0ObpUalj6QLKOhCCRCgbmMF4mXBSP04 s=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AUAQCWkHVf/xbLJq1gHQEBAQEJARI?= =?us-ascii?q?BBQUBgX4FAQsBgSKBd1UBIBIshD2JAoghJpo5gWQFCwEBAQ0BARgBCgwEAQG?= =?us-ascii?q?EB0QCgjImNwYOAgMBAQsBAQUBAQECAQYEbYVcDIVyAQEBAwEBASFEBwQHBQs?= =?us-ascii?q?LEQEDAQEBIAEGAwICJx8DBggGExSDEgGCXCAPryJ2gTKFU4RxBoE4AY1IggC?= =?us-ascii?q?BEScMEIFPfj6CXAEBgSEEEV+CYTOCLQSLWIVaphSCcYMThWiJRIInhXQDH4M?= =?us-ascii?q?OigCFE452nXiRRoNdAgQGBQIVgWokgVczGggbFTsqAYI+CTUSGQ2SEIUUhUQ?= =?us-ascii?q?/AzA3AgYBCQEBAwmMTIFmYAEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.77,323,1596499200"; d="scan'208,217"; a="30040314" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 01 Oct 2020 08:22:03 +0000 Received: from [10.61.236.49] ([10.61.236.49]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 0918M1HI026621 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 1 Oct 2020 08:22:02 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: <95631148-B599-48C7-A295-63DEE53784E4@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_5EFAB781-FFAE-44E1-8C78-76BCC38CFB6A" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 10:22:01 +0200 In-Reply-To: <4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE19435D07@dggeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> Cc: "apn@ietf.org" , "network-tokens@ietf.org" , "architecture-discuss@iab.org" To: "Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)" References: <4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE19435D07@dggeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.236.49, [10.61.236.49] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Question List for APN: Q#8 X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 08:22:11 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_5EFAB781-FFAE-44E1-8C78-76BCC38CFB6A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Shuping I would suggest that this question not be given much time, since if you = have two people in a room, they will have at least three definitions of = =E2=80=9Cnet neutrality=E2=80=9D, and it just gets worse when you add = more people. I would you rather focus on what APN means for end-to-end = security and privacy, and what information elements are available to = intermediaries to make decisions (e.g., Questions 9 and 10 from below). Eliot > On 29 Sep 2020, at 02:54, Pengshuping (Peng Shuping) = wrote: >=20 > Dear all, > =20 > #8. Does APN violate network neutrality? > =20 > Answers: It=E2=80=99s important to realize that under the open = Internet regulations there is still the possibility to do the = differentiation. An easy example to understand is that in the FBB = scenario, you can have different speeds on the access.=20 > =20 > Moreover, any application can run on any QoS level. It is not = necessary that all applications have to run on the same level, but any = application can choose which QoS level it will run on, in the case where = you have multiple QoS levels available.=20 > =20 > APN offers application-aware network services open to all the = applications, and it lets applications to decide themselves whether to = go on board or not and which SLA levels they would like their traffic to = be entitled. > =20 > Best regards, > Shuping > =20 > =20 > From: Lizhenbin=20 > Sent: Monday, September 14, 2020 10:35 PM > To: apn@ietf.org > Cc: Pengshuping (Peng Shuping) > > Subject: Question List for APN > =20 > Hi Folks, > Thanks very much for your attention to APN work. After much = preparation work, we summarized the key questions to be clarified for = APN which also were always asked. In fact in the past discussion and the = APN side meeting of IETF108, many of these questions were discussed and = clarified. Here we propose these questions together for your = convenience. > =20 > The questions to be clarified are as follows: > #1. Which layer is for APN to do the application-aware work? > #2. Does APN provide services within a limited-domain or Internet? > #3. Which area in IETF would the APN work fit better? > #4. What is the relationship between APN and other attempts in = IETF=E2=80=99s history? > #5. What are the valuable use cases/usage scenarios of APN? > #6. Is the fine-granularity operations needed/desired in the network? > #7. Why not just use DSCP? > #8. Does APN violate network neutrality? > #9. Will APN raise security issues since application-aware information = is carried in the APN packets? > #10. Will APN raise privacy issues since application-aware information = is carried in the APN packets? > =20 > Shuping Peng will send the detailed answers for these questions in the = mailing list in the following one or two weeks. The questions and = answers may be not only be sent in the APN mailing list, but also be = copied to the architecture discussion mailing list and the network token = mailing list for more cross-area feedback if necessary. > =20 > If you have any comments on these questions and answers, we can go on = to discuss through the mailing list. > =20 > =20 > Best Regards, > Zhenbin (Robin) > =20 > =20 > =20 > <>=20 > From: Apn [mailto:apn-bounces@ietf.org ] = On Behalf Of Lizhenbin > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2020 7:22 PM > To: apn@ietf.org > Subject: [Apn] Welcome to APN Mailing List > =20 > Hi Folks, > =20 > Welcome to join the APN mailing list. We are glad to have more = discussion through the mailing list as the follow-up of the IETF108 APN = side meeting. > In the process of APN work, many historic work items such as SPUD, = PLUS, etc. have been proposed. It has been tried to be clarified that = APN focuses > on the network layer and limited domains. Concerns on the security and = privacy issues also have been proposed many times about the work. It = also > has been tried to be clarified that in the trustable limited domains = the security and privacy issues can be under control. These are the = reasons why APN > work is based in the RTG area instead of ART/TSV areas. > =20 > But because of too much historic work to be clarified and its = proposing the cross-area discussion for which RTG/APP/TSV/INT/SEC/IRTF = are involved, it is > necessary to have more discussion to clarify the scope and work items = for APN. We wish the mailing list would be helpful to the work and = promoting the > cross-area communication to understand each other better. > =20 > You can get yourself up to speed with our discussions so far by seeing = the materials at < https://github.com/APN-Community/ = >, especially the materials > =46rom the virtual IETF 108 APN side meeting at < = https://github.com/APN-Community/IETF108-Side-Meeting-APN = >. This link = also gives you pointers to > some of the relevant Internet-Drafts. > =20 > Over the next few weeks we will try to guide discussion by introducing = some questions for debate. But please also raise your own issues and = concerns > and contribute to the exchanges on this list. > =20 > Look forwarding to have more fun discussion in the mailing list. > =20 > =20 > Best Regards, > Dan & Zhenbin > =20 > =20 > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss = --Apple-Mail=_5EFAB781-FFAE-44E1-8C78-76BCC38CFB6A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Hi Shuping

I would = suggest that this question not be given much time, since if you have two = people in a room, they will have at least three definitions of =E2=80=9Cne= t neutrality=E2=80=9D, and it just gets worse when you add more people. =  I would you rather focus on what APN means for end-to-end security = and privacy, and what information elements are available to = intermediaries to make decisions (e.g., Questions 9 and 10 from = below).

Eliot

On 29 Sep 2020, at 02:54, Pengshuping (Peng Shuping) <pengshuping@huawei.com> wrote:

Dear all,
 
#8. Does APN violate network = neutrality?
 
Answers: It=E2=80=99s important to realize = that under the open Internet regulations there is still the possibility = to do the differentiation. An easy example to understand is that in the = FBB scenario, you can have different speeds on the access. 
 
Moreover, any application can run on any = QoS level. It is not necessary that all applications have to run on the = same level, but any application can choose which QoS level it will run = on, in the case where you have multiple QoS levels available. 
 
APN offers application-aware network = services open to all the applications, and it lets applications to = decide themselves whether to go on board or not and which SLA levels = they would like their traffic to be entitled.
 
Best regards,
Shuping
 
 
From: Lizhenbin 
Sent: Monday, September 14, 2020 = 10:35 PM
To: apn@ietf.org
Cc: Pengshuping (Peng Shuping) = <pengshuping@huawei.com>
Subject: Question List for APN
 
Hi Folks,
Thanks very much for your attention to APN work. After much = preparation work, we summarized the key questions to be clarified for = APN which also were always asked. In fact in the past discussion and the = APN side meeting of IETF108, many of these questions were discussed and = clarified. Here we propose these questions together for your = convenience.
 
The questions to be clarified are as = follows:
#1. Which layer is for APN to do the = application-aware work?
#2. Does APN provide = services within a limited-domain or Internet?
#3. Which area in IETF would the APN work fit better?
#4. What is the relationship between APN and other attempts = in IETF=E2=80=99s history?
#5. What are the valuable = use cases/usage scenarios of APN?
#6. Is the fine-granularity = operations needed/desired in the network?
#7. Why not just use DSCP?
#8. Does APN violate network neutrality?
#9. Will APN raise security issues since application-aware = information is carried in the APN packets?
#10. Will APN raise privacy issues since application-aware = information is carried in the APN packets?
 
Shuping Peng will send the detailed = answers for these questions in the mailing list in the following one or = two weeks. The questions and answers may be not only be sent in the APN = mailing list, but also be copied to the architecture discussion mailing = list and the network token mailing list for more cross-area feedback if = necessary.
 
If you have any comments on these = questions and answers, we can go on to discuss through the mailing = list.
 
 
Best Regards,
Zhenbin (Robin)
 
 
 
 
From: Apn [mailto:apn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Lizhenbin
Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2020 = 7:22 PM
To: apn@ietf.org
Subject: [Apn] Welcome to APN = Mailing List
 
Hi Folks,
 
Welcome to join the APN mailing list. We = are glad to have more discussion through the mailing list as the = follow-up of the IETF108 APN side meeting.
In the process of APN work, many historic work items such as = SPUD, PLUS, etc. have been proposed. It has been tried to be clarified = that APN focuses
on the network layer and limited domains. = Concerns on the security and privacy issues also have been proposed many = times about the work. It also
has been tried to be = clarified that in the trustable limited domains the security and privacy = issues can be under control. These are the reasons why APN
work is based in the RTG area instead of ART/TSV areas.
 
But because of too much historic work to = be clarified and its proposing the cross-area discussion for which = RTG/APP/TSV/INT/SEC/IRTF are involved, it is
necessary to have more discussion to clarify the scope and = work items for APN. We wish the mailing list would be helpful to the = work and promoting the
cross-area communication to = understand each other better.
 
You can get yourself up to speed with our = discussions so far by seeing the materials at < https://github.com/APN-Community/>, especially the = materials
=46rom the virtual IETF 108  APN side = meeting at < https://github.com/APN-Community/IETF108-Side-Meeting-APN&g= t;. This link also gives you pointers to
some of the relevant Internet-Drafts.
 
Over the next few weeks we will try to = guide discussion by introducing some questions for debate. But please = also raise your own issues and concerns
and contribute to the exchanges on this list.
 
Look forwarding to have more fun = discussion in the mailing list.
 
 
Best Regards,
Dan & Zhenbin
 
 
_______________________________________________
Architecture-discuss mailing = list
Architecture-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss<= /div>

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cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1979.3; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 11:23:40 +0200 Received: from exmbx2016.npta.no ([192.168.231.97]) by exmbx2016.npta.no ([192.168.231.97]) with mapi id 15.01.1979.006; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 11:23:40 +0200 From: =?utf-8?B?U8O4cmVuc2VuLCBGcm9kZQ==?= To: Vittorio Bertola , "Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)" , "apn@ietf.org" CC: "architecture-discuss@iab.org" , "network-tokens@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [arch-d] Question List for APN: Q#8 Thread-Index: AdaV+p6hlEeaFy+VRQKsQQJkF8vE1wBxwDzQ///wxgD//8wr4A== Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 09:23:40 +0000 Message-ID: <74f37c26111d41d09e3f05235885d3ce@Nkom.no> References: <4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE19435D07@dggeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <0640dcf0b60249b1aac6527be43b1927@Nkom.no> <520064543.3360.1601540022746@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <520064543.3360.1601540022746@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> Accept-Language: nb-NO, en-US Content-Language: nb-NO X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 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[35.231.92.0]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d1sm507046vsk.4.2020.10.02.17.55.58 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 02 Oct 2020 17:55:58 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Superhuman-ID: kfsyt57g.cff9e182-e5f8-4bf8-9fc6-33aa043d03ec X-Superhuman-Draft-ID: draft004992ff0ce33f00 In-Reply-To: <09f1a2da-00bf-208b-6242-7229cb10622c@huitema.net> From: "Yiannis Yiakoumis" Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2020 00:55:56 +0000 To: "Christian Huitema" X-Mailer: Superhuman Desktop (2020-10-02T22:06:00Z) References: <2020092211271508522412@chinaunicom.cn> <4FEADB2A-A062-44B4-8D36-3651EBDD1ACD@eggert.org> <121369D4-F4C7-44E9-9BFC-FA26A7265E98@eggert.org> <09f1a2da-00bf-208b-6242-7229cb10622c@huitema.net> Message-ID: Cc: network-tokens@ietf.org, =?UTF-8?q?=E6=9B=B9=E7=95=85?= , zhangs366@chinaunicom.cn, architecture-discuss@iab.org, "apn" , "pengshuping" , "Lars Eggert" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=7e16b5e5a44df4abaf9789028d8945b504236a6d8d925df0086a34ea6680 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] [Network-tokens] [Apn] Questions for APN: Q#5 X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2020 00:56:02 -0000 --7e16b5e5a44df4abaf9789028d8945b504236a6d8d925df0086a34ea6680 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi Christian, You are right - I meant to say=C2=A0access network, and the fact that despi= te the differences between a WAN and access network the main idea that you = can use fine-granularity SLAs to improve performance/cost/efficiency remain= s valid. Apologies for the confusion. Best, Yiannis On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 1:58 PM, Christian Huitema < huitema@huitema.net > = wrote: >=20 > On 9/30/2020 11:07 AM, Yiannis Yiakoumis wrote: >=20 >=20 >> Hi Lars, >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On Wed, Sep 30 , 2020 at 12:28 AM, Lars Eggert < lars@ eggert. org ( >> lars@eggert.org ) > wrote: >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Hi, >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On 2020-9-26, at 2:22, Yiannis Yiakoumis < yiannis@ selfienetworks. com= ( >>> yiannis@selfienetworks.com ) > wrote: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> One of the first successful proof-points for SDN was Google claiming t= hat >>>> they moved their WAN utilization to ~100%, instead of over-provisionin= g. >>>> It saved them lots of money. Two of the design principles that led the= m >>>> there were >>>> i) moving from "all packets are equally important" to "allocate resour= ces >>>> based on application-level priorities" and ii) moving from "TCP flows >>>> regulated by "fair share" mechanisms" to "measure demands, and shape f= lows >>>> at the endpoints". >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> I think these claims were made for Google's private B4 network, right? >>> AFAIK that is a *very* different network from the public Internet. From >>> what I recall, each transfer over B4 is scheduled over the course of a = day >>> based on various flow properties that are required to be specified, >>> following some giant minmax-like computation. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Yes, this is for B4. While the network is different, the idea that you c= an >> build a much more cost/performance efficient WAN still stands. >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > What do you call WAN? Until now, APN was proposed for "limited domains", > which are typically access networks. WAN would imply going further, to > long distance networks used for connections between access providers. Is > that really what you have in mind? >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- Christian Huitema >=20 >=20 >=20 > --7e16b5e5a44df4abaf9789028d8945b504236a6d8d925df0086a34ea6680 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
3D"
Hi Christian,

You are right - I meant to say=C2=A0a= ccess network, and the fact that despite the differences between a WAN and = access network the main idea that you can use fine-granularity SLAs to impr= ove performance/cost/efficiency remains valid. Apologies for the confusion.= =C2=A0

Best,
Yiannis




On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 1:58 PM, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net> wrote:
On 9/30/2020 11:07 AM, Yiannis Yiakoumis wrote:
Hi Lars,

On Wed, Sep 30= , 2020 at 12:28 AM, Lars Eggert <lars@e= ggert.org> wrote:

Hi,

On 2020-9-26, at 2:22, Yiannis Yiakoumis <yiannis@selfienetworks.com> wrote:

One of the first successful proof-points for SDN was Google claiming that they moved their WAN utilization to ~100%, instead of over-provisioning. It saved them lots of money. Two of the design principles that led them there were
i) moving from "all packets are equally important= " to "allocate resources based on application-level priorities" and ii) moving from "TCP flows regulated by "fair share" mechanisms" to "measure demands, a= nd shape flows at the endpoints".

I think these claims were made for Google's private B4 network, right? AFAIK that is a *very* different network from the public Internet. From what I recall, each transfer over B4 is scheduled over the course of a day based on various flow properties that are required to be specified, following some giant minmax-like computation.


Yes, this is for B4. While the network is different= , the idea that you can build a much more cost/performance efficient WAN still stands.

What do you call WAN? Until now, APN was proposed for = 4;limited domains", which are typically access networks. WAN would imply going further, to long distance networks used for connections between access providers. Is that really what you have in mind?

-- Christian Huitema


--7e16b5e5a44df4abaf9789028d8945b504236a6d8d925df0086a34ea6680-- From nobody Fri Oct 2 19:36:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E8573A17AE for ; Fri, 2 Oct 2020 19:36:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eVwQfbvacWtP for ; Fri, 2 Oct 2020 19:36:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x32e.google.com (mail-ot1-x32e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A2A7A3A17AF for ; Fri, 2 Oct 2020 19:36:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x32e.google.com with SMTP id c2so3349042otp.7 for ; Fri, 02 Oct 2020 19:36:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=X1dc/yrXWqH0o9lW6095wScR9uYooCbKNQHNKVImIQI=; b=ZQZ1uVV90RizZkcvGrvWJHqcsoi5pPjr11Xd5VVYkANhY17Rr77LA9cZ4R606wPAPW QPNLcFx1Vdbygkiif722JAPDj/xEg6b8UBrE0eiTzJKV48+EU4wPpwuWa1ftqm1yZhke 15dkF1FeJo9Tl9UFGyypG9rPP/MmXh48w59kXUC7bDbxgLfYHUvT6XnOeHKHC7+5CqxY GWVA6cqO96tuVlEfnzgWVxSJqte4Vcx7gHwYC6/MvSlz+jHFsDt1Rr2KZiBmOeMW9mTF WWX0XcvOTQL0jTk5/cSQH5o/0asxj+fjAsDWcL9I9YL1aterrWNgg+WqOwM14ATGoaCw ZHbg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=X1dc/yrXWqH0o9lW6095wScR9uYooCbKNQHNKVImIQI=; b=QtyFy+0lMf5EZlpjJAK36kYc+PQ1p2LksRp7suCDDlauCjmdW7JGftSUzwnC9m0IfE l+z67LU9Odwd1m/2DxqlgYTbHhFaBlHyvPZXpWE7qEHEVWhgGGQJAKzx5+WDXKgIil1n oZ+xHAQjwlwyVbM7kyBJ9HryUtkQDU3UhVQMY+jC9bhXh8ceYwg8wcShr0dEE5Du57+D v7kSE/4sBZU9ht3a0nR5SSFx4MS226Qg6FY1OOf2SdGuvHGLiJXudH6BdNCoNa7F5VHa RbNyEK0JR+rmAS4PgGbabruqVtWavl3rkPDmXhUioip2tjis/RbDHmjyObMkobk1s8Vv WDVg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532pJJ4ThzIW54BaUsnqFW6EwFKlp8lxGVki3cXdrr4roBm5t7MC 4bufNtZSdO+VH1F5TP7yaTYEBA3rIZcU1xlQu9M= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyaUy8zHEy1Pc4SSCc8l2gBQ/DejorJUiB9XkJXb7+s/5JXAdoq3UrQSxtpM8d3s6rwpL6RuIV3bcdxwH7E6UQ= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:12c7:: with SMTP id a7mr4104698otq.334.1601692580918; Fri, 02 Oct 2020 19:36:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Lizhong Jin Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 19:36:09 -0700 Message-ID: To: tony.li@tony.li Cc: "apn@ietf.org" , "network-tokens@ietf.org" , "architecture-discuss@iab.org" , pengshuping@huawei.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005338ac05b0bb1d31" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] [Network-tokens] Questions for APN: Q#6 and Q#7 X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2020 02:36:24 -0000 --0000000000005338ac05b0bb1d31 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I believe this is a very initial draft for the authors of *draft-li-6man-app-aware-ipv6-*network-02. Additional 256Bytes for only one option would be a disaster for current various hardware design. Lizhong ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: tony.li@tony.li To: "Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)" Cc: "apn@ietf.org" , "network-tokens@ietf.org" < network-tokens@ietf.org>, "architecture-discuss@iab.org" < architecture-discuss@iab.org> Bcc: Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2020 14:31:38 -0700 Subject: Re: [Network-tokens] [arch-d] Questions for APN: Q#6 and Q#7 > > Hi Shuping, > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-6man-app-aware-ipv6-network-02 > > *Basically, the information carried in the IP layer is used for traffic > steering policy selection within a limited APN network domain in order to > guarantee the SLA requirements.* > > > > *I=E2=80=99m a little unclear on what I=E2=80=99m reading, so please pard= on some > clarifying questions.* > > *In this document, I=E2=80=99m seeing two options defined for use in IPv6 > extension headers.* > > *The application aware ID option appears to be up to 255 bytes long, > variable length, and consists of three different structures.* > > *How does the forwarding engine determine which structure is in use? Can > this option appear multiple times in the header? * > *Within each structure, the fields are variable length, but there appears > to be no way to determine how long the fields are.* > > *The service-para option appears to be a bit more structured. Again, thi= s > appears to be variable length, up to 255 bytes.* > *Within the option, we have numerous subTLVs. What is the purpose of the > RESERVED fields? If you=E2=80=99re trying to retain alignment,* > *didn=E2=80=99t that go out the window with a two byte option header?* > > *Does the delay sub-TLV indicate the overall path delay? Or the per-hop > delay? If the full path delay, how does a router know* > *whether this has been satisfied? Do systems along the path decrease thi= s > value as the packet is forwarded? How does a router* > *know how much to decrement?* > > *Is 24 bits really necessary for the Delay Variation? Is a jitter of 16s > even meaningful?* > > *The packet loss ratio is a 24 bit (presumably unsigned) value. Is this > an integer? Normally ratios are expressed as a relation between multiple* > *integers. What are the semantics here?* > > *Have you computed the amount of overhead that you will be introducing? I= t > appears to me that you could easily have 1000 bytes of overhead per > packet. What does * > *this do to service provider bandwidth consumption? What does this do to > the =E2=80=98low-latency=E2=80=99 service that you want to provide?* > > *Tony* > > > > > > --0000000000005338ac05b0bb1d31 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I believe this is a= very initial draft for the authors of draft-li-6man-app-aware-ipv6-network-02. Addi= tional 256Bytes for only=C2=A0one option=C2=A0would be a disast= er for current various hardware design.

<= div>Lizhong

---------- Forwarded message --------= --
From:=C2=A0tony.= li@tony.li
To:=C2=A0"Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)" <pengshuping@huawei.c= om>
Cc:=C2=A0"apn@ietf.org" <apn@ietf.org>, "network-tokens@ietf.org" <network-tokens@ietf.org>= , "a= rchitecture-discuss@iab.org" <architecture-discuss@iab.org>
Bc= c:=C2=A0
Date:=C2=A0Tue, 29 Sep 2020 14:31:38 -0700
Subject:=C2=A0Re:= [Network-tokens] [arch-d] Questions for APN: Q#6 and Q#7

Hi Shuping,

<= span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-= serif;font-size:10.5pt">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-6man-app-aware-ip= v6-network-02
= =C2=A0
Basically, the information carrie= d in the IP layer is used for traffic steering policy selection within a li= mited APN network domain in order to guarantee the SLA requirements.<= /u>
=C2=A0

I=E2=80=99m a little unclear on what I=E2=80=99m reading, so= please pardon some clarifying questions.
In this document, I=E2=80=99m seeing two = options defined for use in IPv6 extension headers.
<= /div>

The application awar= e ID option appears to be up to 255 bytes long, variable length, and consis= ts of three different structures.

How does the forwarding engine determine which st= ructure is in use? Can this option appear multiple times in the header?=C2= =A0
Within each structure, the fields are va= riable length, but there appears to be no way to determine how long the fie= lds are.

The service-para option appears to be a bit more structured.=C2=A0 Again, = this appears to be variable length, up to 255 bytes.
= Within the option, we have numerous subTLVs. What is the purpose o= f the RESERVED fields? If you=E2=80=99re trying to retain alignment,
didn=E2=80=99t that go out the window with a two b= yte option header?

Does the delay sub-TLV indicate the overall path delay? Or the p= er-hop delay?=C2=A0 If the full path delay, how does a router know<= /u>
whether this has been satisfied?=C2=A0 Do systems al= ong the path decrease this value as the packet is forwarded? How does a rou= ter
know how much to decrement?<= /div>

Is 24 bits really ne= cessary for the Delay Variation?=C2=A0 Is a jitter of 16s even meaningful?<= /u>

The pack= et loss ratio is a 24 bit (presumably unsigned) value.=C2=A0 Is this an int= eger? Normally ratios are expressed as a relation between multiple<= /u>
integers. What are the semantics here?

Have you computed the= amount of overhead that you will be introducing? It appears to me that you= could easily have 1000 bytes of overhead per packet.=C2=A0 What does=C2=A0=
this do to service provider bandwidth consu= mption? What does this do to the =E2=80=98low-latency=E2=80=99 service that= you want to provide?

=
Tony




<= /u>
<= div>
<= /div>
=
=
--0000000000005338ac05b0bb1d31-- From nobody Sun Oct 11 12:27:14 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 401013A02C1 for ; Sun, 11 Oct 2020 12:27:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TxD78gdttTKN for ; Sun, 11 Oct 2020 12:27:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x529.google.com (mail-pg1-x529.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::529]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0CA8D3A0365 for ; Sun, 11 Oct 2020 12:27:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x529.google.com with SMTP id y14so11934493pgf.12 for ; Sun, 11 Oct 2020 12:27:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=to:from:subject:organization:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=1b9oLTZmXDIy8eBsN7AkSEd2N88HN2YBWxgxZgpcV5Q=; b=qPyXAqGaO5PQzbHOcvK1289Z4xGtKfQajt3H1Zs3/gK5xhQ9IP6kFP3/ejsdNJn1C6 pJjTf6g+Bg/dWUagvb2282O7chiplVkq6STBJE3/CO6KfwJa9IJMydrKNJ+uuRA/51EU EOlRSJzESp2pExQSsvqZmCSRXiSXv6GQ0fvuTYmYIsTKUCOGmCF+zaOSoku0BfIRs9ZC NEKvUama5cwo9Aop0L6/5ubP9f4VhI8A0x192WMmbCttK+EAEm9icvZVN562xBS9wDnw zfMLHjUHXOI1r0eH/nO6QADo0QXuSm6d5vOLu3bM2kMp9SSiLi3syA/7vuApO8LP1ZWz 3Kvg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:to:from:subject:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=1b9oLTZmXDIy8eBsN7AkSEd2N88HN2YBWxgxZgpcV5Q=; b=adryGmAK+XGMa5MzbsB5/BdMHBlSGaSprPvNG2MsenxdaXpanvO3sUU1JQX1IX7qe+ Hzj5+gVU3DqR+zE+RQuSy6Fxq9diQqKdu41vN5bQx+48/WQARqT96ag6UnTMpjY8Bwou FiBzaOtPwLQsuA8oHwyHQH2ECnY7cRQ09t9SIi1ticRBSBt6QLMz3/YsjKv24rE2mlCC i+V22jNrfK77jGvs0gUI1vdaGe9uwylA8lFsWucwiJI1hNQoVGikAs8Lw1A8nYhI4d4o YzgXZc5wlxG4y3OmMbG1qnIAGWOHbARTjy1jdjdTptgglS28SpvEq3Xemo0uvtYsDN7A aIZg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531PjUXkuEwAkyapIPHETOqy+eOnhY0PEbhXQTUFFS3xc98GQHNt +2kgZX/BUL4Ga+NynmJUFRKEYSF3tsgSTA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxYaSmEQfYQnYnXxQcZzrbvntWSJyT9kG4X9rAGLwg0BfQ4I2M5w/19iPndyIo52M0FO9RV0w== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:7f8c:: with SMTP id m12mr16955135pjl.22.1602444429916; Sun, 11 Oct 2020 12:27:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.132.159]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w205sm17535762pfc.78.2020.10.11.12.27.07 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 11 Oct 2020 12:27:08 -0700 (PDT) To: architecture-discuss@ietf.org From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <8fa06d77-e73b-aa15-683d-937e8841566f@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 08:27:05 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2020 19:27:12 -0000 Not to mention RFC 7258. Orders from the Top: The EU=E2=80=99s Timetable for Dismantling End-to-En= d Encryption: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/10/orders-top-eus-timetable-dismantlin= g-end-end-encryption Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Technology/Five-Eyes-and-Japan-call-for-= Facebook-backdoor-to-monitor-crime =20 Regards Brian Carpenter From nobody Sun Oct 11 14:20:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 117243A07AE for ; Sun, 11 Oct 2020 14:20:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0cAF50oUFRCy for ; Sun, 11 Oct 2020 14:20:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 489793A07A0 for ; Sun, 11 Oct 2020 14:20:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1kRilH-0002hd-61; Sun, 11 Oct 2020 17:20:11 -0400 Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2020 17:20:04 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Brian E Carpenter cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <975E28FE326C22E8CD32DCC8@PSB> In-Reply-To: <8fa06d77-e73b-aa15-683d-937e8841566f@gmail.com> References: <8fa06d77-e73b-aa15-683d-937e8841566f@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2020 21:20:20 -0000 --On Monday, October 12, 2020 08:27 +1300 Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Not to mention RFC 7258. > > Orders from the Top: The EU's Timetable for Dismantling > End-to-End Encryption: > https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/10/orders-top-eus-timetable > -dismantling-end-end-encryption > > Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime > https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Technology/Five-Eyes-and-Japa > n-call-for-Facebook-backdoor-to-monitor-crime Brian, This, plus another variation on the theme [1], is what has been concerning me for some time. It has caused an occasional rant but I'm mostly stayed silent because the IETF consensus (at least when 7258 was published) seemed clear. It seems to me that we (very broadly defined) may be headed into a period in which: (1) We are forced into a choice between encryption and other technical privacy protections against attacks (borrowing the 7258 language) by individuals and attacks by governments (including law enforcement), especially governments who have jurisdiction over the sender, receiver, or other. The default if we don't choose and make the distinction clear to others may be "neither". and/or (2) We are forced into a choice between an open and global Internet and one that is very fragmented with security and privacy protective only within mutually-isolated more local networks. We would have either no communication among those local networks or content filtering, application-level, gateways at politically selected boundaries. Refusing to chose might result in both bad outcomes. I want to stress that I do not advocate or welcome being forced into those choices or any of the outcomes they might imply. But I think it may be where we are headed, with the two pieces you cite above, increased pressure for "law enforcement access" in a variety of places, etc., possibly just being road signs on that path. Sadly, john [1] The other concern that goes with this involves assorted enterprises deciding they need to protect themselves from assorted bad stuff by examination of content crossing their boundaries. For a subset of them (and their firewall, etc.) providers, the shift to "encryption everywhere" creates a challenge that they see no way to deal with other by eliminating client desktop to server (or other end to end) encryption and replacing it with client to middlebox/ middlebox to server mechanisms, preserving encryption across the public Internet at the cost of a single point of failure with access to cleartext at their boundary middleboxes. From nobody Sun Oct 11 15:50:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E0613A0985 for ; Sun, 11 Oct 2020 15:50:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.113 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.113 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZE8jh-hxQk1a for ; Sun, 11 Oct 2020 15:50:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx43-out1.antispamcloud.com (mx43-out1.antispamcloud.com [138.201.61.189]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE54D3A097F for ; Sun, 11 Oct 2020 15:50:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xse119.mail2web.com ([66.113.196.119] helo=xse.mail2web.com) by mx168.antispamcloud.com with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kRkAK-000Ea9-Uk for architecture-discuss@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 00:50:10 +0200 Received: from xsmtp22.mail2web.com (unknown [10.100.68.61]) by xse.mail2web.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C8cTB2Qn7z27p2 for ; Sun, 11 Oct 2020 15:50:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.5.2.31] (helo=xmail09.myhosting.com) by xsmtp22.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kRkAI-00061G-7B for architecture-discuss@ietf.org; Sun, 11 Oct 2020 15:50:06 -0700 Received: (qmail 13420 invoked from network); 11 Oct 2020 22:50:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.107]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.58.43.139]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail09.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 11 Oct 2020 22:50:05 -0000 To: John C Klensin , Brian E Carpenter Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org References: <8fa06d77-e73b-aa15-683d-937e8841566f@gmail.com> <975E28FE326C22E8CD32DCC8@PSB> From: Christian Huitema Autocrypt: addr=huitema@huitema.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mDMEXtavGxYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdA1ou9A5MHTP9N3jfsWzlDZ+jPnQkusmc7sfLmWVz1Rmu0 J0NocmlzdGlhbiBIdWl0ZW1hIDxodWl0ZW1hQGh1aXRlbWEubmV0PoiWBBMWCAA+FiEEw3G4 Nwi4QEpAAXUUELAmqKBYtJQFAl7WrxsCGwMFCQlmAYAFCwkIBwIGFQoJCAsCBBYCAwECHgEC F4AACgkQELAmqKBYtJQbMwD/ebj/qnSbthC/5kD5DxZ/Ip0CGJw5QBz/+fJp3R8iAlsBAMjK r2tmyWyJz0CUkVG24WaR5EAJDvgwDv8h22U6QVkAuDgEXtavGxIKKwYBBAGXVQEFAQEHQJoM 6MUAIqpoqdCIiACiEynZf7nlJg2Eu0pXIhbUGONdAwEIB4h+BBgWCAAmFiEEw3G4Nwi4QEpA AXUUELAmqKBYtJQFAl7WrxsCGwwFCQlmAYAACgkQELAmqKBYtJRm2wD7BzeK5gEXSmBcBf0j BYdSaJcXNzx4yPLbP4GnUMAyl2cBAJzcsR4RkwO4dCRqM9CHpVJCwHtbUDJaa55//E0kp+gH Message-ID: <5021a377-e9ca-1580-c2f0-3351b9f5fe04@huitema.net> Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2020 15:50:05 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <975E28FE326C22E8CD32DCC8@PSB> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US X-Originating-IP: 66.113.196.119 X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.196.119/32 Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.196.119/32@xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Mvzo4OR0dZXEDF/gcnlw0ZXzIHSbE2lF8iY6Od2jmSypSDasLI4SayDByyq9LIhVUZbR67CQ7/vm /hHDJU4RXkTNWdUk1Ol2OGx3IfrIJKywOmJyM1qr8uRnWBrbSAGDsYLBcJLyHnVrULITPs15U6ts NHuRxlWqWR9fNqLY1ai4Dcwf+CZK8NXgy3In+fX7wYGxr7LXLi3+kUZXlThoqVO05s+oip5EC/YK rMQ9+O9t+TYaqvvx766D6vBkj4PutP0Dzal8myJ8vVhoWnSKP2MRQY4sL7fGBhvCp6oW0F28pnvZ XWSe7jV34Pxn0vH1Lz/y+awqhw7CmTPsWtYsCV/oEQh3zFZ7AJOfdc5NLopVCPmS+MVojfDUugvn Zl+jhHQOLtWk4clq0P6Ltvr/5Zl+BJt+8hYKwgejR0Z9YPn97p3CKmEi95YYeXPNWMiahaC2TJpF rGrq1WX76kTmg5w7R2/M+XaT5BLifEp8KpWu41J1t4cteGI4vH6PuMQp0kaOEXLuWd+6zLg4wp8u XxPcpGyeyPXKNTABBN67jV7JvFCbAD7w3FUirQwmJIqD2OUMeHyTpNN0eXybX/w7/3ZCM0u5uBlK VwmNWN494pWaZ30sdVozPGNttYaP6Q9/2E4JvzZwv3PGBEOc6AcTtKlxiwntkD2eEKddmSkms3CG 0c1aNWBfB87rZzV2mYS3VD1XJsdUC/l4in++svwYCsuvr9eYlnrNxETbn7YZpw3ymNgFzWRkuRvd 2hsh/DKjJTkETFTHdBwnk7JDmeUy/LUbIt943D+erP5PutQA9Ss14O9uIBc4R2FHvu2iptL1GeGu 5qOj6kS5rtB5TKSzR04vidrAbzPztKfs4s5XguL2uhT3KQx41zCmSSvPnIYmS4glJP8JuWv5w7P9 xxEwk+3E7PNP9hZ2YPyDLCAHXnUsy647Mn0zwmGzAi3Zn+Ydr38cN0L29hpYqOQomv/Sn4OJCdFr QGG66XtzjgLUDW/OzgRwsx26JIrnuz41QdUugEEc+Eql4Tj+X3YkLe5buSZuZ5OAUoGBziSYFLZu u6wUZYupFCxOQUA2Zz77xVbE X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine11.antispamcloud.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2020 22:50:15 -0000 On 10/11/2020 2:20 PM, John C Klensin wrote: > It seems to me that we (very broadly defined) may be headed into > a period in which: > > (1) We are forced into a choice between encryption and other > technical privacy protections against attacks (borrowing the > 7258 language) by individuals and attacks by governments > (including law enforcement), especially governments who have > jurisdiction over the sender, receiver, or other. The default > if we don't choose and make the distinction clear to others may > be "neither". > > and/or=20 > > (2) We are forced into a choice between an open and global > Internet and one that is very fragmented with security and > privacy protective only within mutually-isolated more local > networks. We would have either no communication among those > local networks or content filtering, application-level, gateways > at politically selected boundaries. Refusing to chose might > result in both bad outcomes. There may be something else. The government actions typically operate through application providers acting as gatekeepers, as in "Facebook, please provide me a clear-text version of these messages". If there are just a few platforms managing a large share of the communications, governments merely have to lean onto these platforms to obtain what they want. And if a company is running a big communication business, it will come to terms with local governments in order to protect that business. If the IETF wants to protect individual freedoms, then it might want to focus on distributed architecture for communication services. -- Christian Huitema From nobody Mon Oct 12 00:42:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8DE43A12EE for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 00:42:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vaxPl6DEP99t for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 00:42:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x436.google.com (mail-pf1-x436.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::436]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 02A243A12CD for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 00:42:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x436.google.com with SMTP id k8so12758632pfk.2 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 00:42:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:subject:date:message-id :references:cc:in-reply-to:to; bh=UA4ksxA/zRth4AZD0avf1Vx+1QCNtzJgz8J35p2dIyw=; b=JK/mdFAq2C83eWooKwDMKmxzp6nnA4EpR0p0e7ehR1vC9KaQmFsSFJco65odYIDsP+ 5T4RlZPNk8kRt8EH6DXExLA0Dmah+zIeo8Rf7H1/GjUIJCaPgSguSnA6x8ITkRzO/TNo POtSOfU3PZIU4Ce/yfxwqLiYP8NfMsukAKwZ0eCMFXTvAXaOvyxOVOTwBMwZ2nZaoKNw hBK3wuOjEvvxCTcHNEAexiPPV8w6g5PgQmf0Sg73auchX+KOJKYv4T3SSh/sYR94khEP QVA5SX8y/lxBVq4ov7pHWoV9O21XqgYTcnQkKQobNBNTRaly1RJEwwY3ZATQ+KWfkqbH VVFg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version :subject:date:message-id:references:cc:in-reply-to:to; bh=UA4ksxA/zRth4AZD0avf1Vx+1QCNtzJgz8J35p2dIyw=; b=pSbFNcKl/9ea9bqBQdRPcUljwpWkP5yj0NiB2RR4gVIJ7Ge12q3EyzFz/4eNsLxsSM S7H5Zmc/2Jlzl/vY84lc0LtBAOdJvZ5GChzcp4X+u+BX41ssB39+HH9+jVLI6/G5HTnr Ay0ZqT9rx7X71aIk8FKjNtGt/XgeefuXiugdY+1Y3Op21ElbGvkQ62y2vtaaszjHnUUn LmOckj6drY3QQW3nI/SGnVOafo/P5G4Sh20p399vppJixgRdqcDqw3x/dwFP07nqYmV0 krrBSlvVHNrgdoj3ojz+nqW+7SKK6bGyrUD0TnNQMNEVsDeQkAmUOKo178xkXdbzpDtW ZE0Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533D8BrqnTEHRRhBdYTMBUvA1jVA2AIt2T/yudavwrdOdcgegukV PyaGnoYDr5d4vB0Dnmtk3KgPkbwqcHiF8w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzegsffDU9cxA4fzTkK83MO9+DK4uhrOmQvGRPYs21CP0nnZJBC6XBw54+s0elrONDaWc9K2A== X-Received: by 2002:a63:3205:: with SMTP id y5mr12099648pgy.122.1602488546880; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 00:42:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.24] (cm-170-253-149-251.maxxsouthbb.net. [170.253.149.251]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j3sm7115624pjv.20.2020.10.12.00.42.25 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 12 Oct 2020 00:42:26 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Mo Balaa Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 02:42:24 -0500 Message-Id: <7E51C13E-19CF-40FB-BC8F-C3ECFC30CBC5@gmail.com> References: <5021a377-e9ca-1580-c2f0-3351b9f5fe04@huitema.net> Cc: John C Klensin , Brian E Carpenter , architecture-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <5021a377-e9ca-1580-c2f0-3351b9f5fe04@huitema.net> To: Christian Huitema X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18A393) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 07:42:33 -0000 Shameless plug for some experimental protocols we=E2=80=99ve been developing= . We call them Noteworthy (class of) distributed overlay protocols. TBH we a= ren=E2=80=99t experts at this kind of stuff but are concerned that the windo= w of opportunity to establish these types of FOSS standards/strategies is ra= pidly closing. We are actively seeking contributors, mentors or advisors. We= are imagining meta-protocols build atop decentralized messaging protocols l= ike Matrix. We have a working prototype. https://github.com/decentralabs/noteworthy > On Oct 11, 2020, at 5:50 PM, Christian Huitema wrote= : >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 10/11/2020 2:20 PM, John C Klensin wrote: >=20 >> It seems to me that we (very broadly defined) may be headed into >> a period in which: >>=20 >> (1) We are forced into a choice between encryption and other >> technical privacy protections against attacks (borrowing the >> 7258 language) by individuals and attacks by governments >> (including law enforcement), especially governments who have >> jurisdiction over the sender, receiver, or other. The default >> if we don't choose and make the distinction clear to others may >> be "neither". >>=20 >> and/or=20 >>=20 >> (2) We are forced into a choice between an open and global >> Internet and one that is very fragmented with security and >> privacy protective only within mutually-isolated more local >> networks. We would have either no communication among those >> local networks or content filtering, application-level, gateways >> at politically selected boundaries. Refusing to chose might >> result in both bad outcomes. >=20 >=20 > There may be something else. The government actions typically operate > through application providers acting as gatekeepers, as in "Facebook, > please provide me a clear-text version of these messages". If there are > just a few platforms managing a large share of the communications, > governments merely have to lean onto these platforms to obtain what they > want. And if a company is running a big communication business, it will > come to terms with local governments in order to protect that business. > If the IETF wants to protect individual freedoms, then it might want to > focus on distributed architecture for communication services. >=20 > -- Christian Huitema >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss From nobody Mon Oct 12 12:27:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAA023A0400 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 12:27:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Nm9JqguOaOk1 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 12:27:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4AA003A03FB for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 12:27:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1kS3Tm-0007ZK-Dm; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 15:27:30 -0400 Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 15:27:24 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Christian Huitema , Brian E Carpenter cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <47EA7F173A4205E1D1DC87A7@PSB> In-Reply-To: <5021a377-e9ca-1580-c2f0-3351b9f5fe04@huitema.net> References: <8fa06d77-e73b-aa15-683d-937e8841566f@gmail.com> <975E28FE326C22E8CD32DCC8@PSB> <5021a377-e9ca-1580-c2f0-3351b9f5fe04@huitema.net> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 19:27:35 -0000 --On Sunday, October 11, 2020 15:50 -0700 Christian Huitema wrote: > On 10/11/2020 2:20 PM, John C Klensin wrote: > >> It seems to me that we (very broadly defined) may be headed >> into a period in which: >> >> (1) We are forced into a choice between encryption and other >> technical privacy protections against attacks (borrowing the >> 7258 language) by individuals and attacks by governments >> (including law enforcement), especially governments who have >> jurisdiction over the sender, receiver, or other. The default >> if we don't choose and make the distinction clear to others >> may be "neither". >... > There may be something else. The government actions typically > operate through application providers acting as gatekeepers, > as in "Facebook, please provide me a clear-text version of > these messages". If there are just a few platforms managing a > large share of the communications, governments merely have to > lean onto these platforms to obtain what they want. And if a > company is running a big communication business, it will come > to terms with local governments in order to protect that > business. If the IETF wants to protect individual freedoms, > then it might want to focus on distributed architecture for > communication services. Indeed. While I see that as a special case of "who are we trying to protect against", it is quite different in some ways and worth calling out separately. But it also means we should be thinking very carefully about technologies that, rather than keeping some information private, merely shifts around who has access to it to a different (and smaller) set of large providers who might have trouble resisting strong and focused government pressures such as those you identify. DoT and DoH come to mind as things we should probably look again at from the perspective of whether they increase the kind of concentration (and associated risks) that you warn against. So do anti-spam technologies such as DMARC and, although it is much further from the IETF's responsibilities, strategies to protect personal information in DNS registry databases by effectively insuring that large registry operators are the only ones with general access to those data. FWIW, I have noticed that there is one big difference between my running my own servers for mail, storage, etc., and passing those off to a large cloud or virtual service providers. If some governmental entity comes to that provider with sufficient legal documents or threats (of the sort you mention or of the use of force) and says "give me his files and records and don't tell him we asked", they presumably get them and I presumably don't find out. If they come to me with the same request (putting aside whether I would be able to destroy everything and would have the nerve to do that), they presumably get the files but there is zero chance of keeping me from finding out about the request. Sometimes that is important, sometimes not, but, where it is important, distributed architectures and protocols and operational arrangements that encourage highly distributed services are prerequisite. thanks, john From nobody Mon Oct 12 14:29:27 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC8683A09F4 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 14:29:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=netorgft5189650.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1-1kalkaEEFu for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 14:29:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from GBR01-CWL-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr110079.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.11.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 829C73A09F3 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 14:29:24 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=Y9qDZssQbvr5ycmR1q4z7cOS7BuwfPO+fqJ2KThxOcwSeuPIo/7oqSBuuDEK20Yhoh7hr64O5Tsj/VVRqSl9HWKORNNDR6sxKdDAYgG7L4iwy1+V8ONFtLZpy6cZ4QOjiGlc7dCgq/PSzAT7av5/KFR/Iu3WQavXNmQa8xxUp0+n+F1UPQ3pVFQQXhioY+V5cXlhQjz4HTMX0lTf0cK5F+Qm+VrmLPMkPGaKZs7znodVSTO3AKVLFqQBJsRkktLd970NevcxAMcslzHzKjN5I9Zke8TEsgLU5ZliIQBM3FCrJWNYBUV0eheINiV4ko5gylCN9r97NyV3O7C6Qaz93Q== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=NMo9saWuImyJ0emqP8R8qAuD31sfiZWQ8QIWb8CcZ14=; b=TbZhLhamU6/B9V2ZrqihoBLBYLJeSvUJYXfW4x8U1hztHeZbhsfKfXSLT3TTXmRwlAdxsRJpc8ijuUSDtp9klUlU81iMCCr1V1U3u5UXctcJraZmfoiOFnYcOZ+XyY3eces/JBKXfHh6WKloKs5stvHZ4BiIehnk0PbKWJOhqiPUXLqmhxLo9ytCK1xe/hrzy7nwQ9Xjs+RDhop6t3vdcym6tatbqMxoDV1i7BEe8AroD65oB2W9vd5eymjDt1J6Se088R+iP/UYN9zxMqIGiJsiU229aSYGDKYJsKN8ds4FNl/LZckeEZM2XGkKijruM9xgWyNrhG5UK8Bek2CyIg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=419.consulting; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=419.consulting; dkim=pass header.d=419.consulting; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=NETORGFT5189650.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-NETORGFT5189650-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=NMo9saWuImyJ0emqP8R8qAuD31sfiZWQ8QIWb8CcZ14=; b=CdEfcfR3eohal2sXYiczij3jBA8MGW8FD7U3AZ/Q/xUXt1u8w4AOJoplHjnva0VQBwgZk84amk1dD/KWTW8ghjF3WLp5ygfOJQD0V7CXSmBlsUbLoYC3nL9tczX+pupwij4JLO7BrZnYwlPLqsroOrkusjExWPMzyr9UI/Fcofw= Received: from LO2P265MB0573.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:600:71::15) by LO2P265MB0320.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:600:68::17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3455.25; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 21:29:22 +0000 Received: from LO2P265MB0573.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::199b:a430:6264:9bf6]) by LO2P265MB0573.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::199b:a430:6264:9bf6%7]) with mapi id 15.20.3455.030; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 21:29:22 +0000 From: Andrew Campling To: Christian Huitema , John C Klensin , Brian E Carpenter CC: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? 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Mon, 12 Oct 2020 14:45:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.132.159]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m11sm20899986pfa.69.2020.10.12.14.45.15 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 12 Oct 2020 14:45:16 -0700 (PDT) To: Andrew Campling , Christian Huitema , John C Klensin Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" References: <8fa06d77-e73b-aa15-683d-937e8841566f@gmail.com> <975E28FE326C22E8CD32DCC8@PSB> <5021a377-e9ca-1580-c2f0-3351b9f5fe04@huitema.net> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <435b590d-955e-f61f-d7fb-be4bfdb27b12@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 10:45:13 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 21:45:20 -0000 On 13-Oct-20 10:29, Andrew Campling wrote: > On 10/11/2020 23:50, Christian Huitema wrote: > >> There may be something else. The government actions typically operate through application >> providers acting as gatekeepers, as in "Facebook, please provide me a clear-text version of >> these messages". If there are just a few platforms managing a large share of the >> communications, governments merely have to lean onto these platforms to obtain what they >> want. And if a company is running a big communication business, it will come to terms with >> local governments in order to protect that business. >> >> If the IETF wants to protect individual freedoms, then it might want to focus on distributed >> architecture for communication services. > > This could lead to a situation where it appears to be an unaccountable tech sector against democratically elected governments, remembering that the tech sector is responsible for surveillance capitalism, helped enable Cambridge Analytica and its ilk, provides tools facilitating misinformation campaigns etc. In other words, the sector cannot claim the moral high ground here; this may not end well. > > That said, it would be good news to see action taken to stop the accelerating pace of centralisation which seems likely to undermine the resilience of the Internet and potentially weaken privacy. We're not "the tech sector", however, nor are we rampaging libertarian capitalists. The strength of the arguments in RFC1984 and RFC2804 is that they are technical arguments about how to ensure security. RFC7258 is also based on technical arguments, although it's a bit harder to claim that it's 100% technical. I'm sure that we will see more work on fully distributed (serverless) encrypted mechanisms but I'm also wondering whether the IAB should say anything, possibly via ISOC. The basic message is only "please reread RFCs 1984, 2804 and 7258, because nothing has changed." Brian From nobody Mon Oct 12 14:51:19 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03C893A0A68 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 14:51:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.212 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.212 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XntQwSd3y0_M for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 14:51:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D16A03A0A4A for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 14:51:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 903D3BE2C; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 22:51:12 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qNc3RNfer8SH; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 22:51:11 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C1232BE1C; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 22:51:10 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1602539470; bh=4xROCKuxnNJmX2jTEeMxn8XroNCv8TvdV12sLsreyvM=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=p3Qt6pvk3ngiKxUdtiHHnUzTSUhm7DUPDT6Fu6SmgWT5StZCUatz+4rIDHKHk0NNA gyVV4F6HugSEZfcpaL6Q1ntCZcfr3kdkiRy1WO3iCTpsBwywP2SVJRyuM5ligchq+8 7CeRac4uKBsmzJEo1/+ObSTdjV1iGZerxZ17/Smk= To: Andrew Campling , Christian Huitema , John C Klensin , Brian E Carpenter Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" References: <8fa06d77-e73b-aa15-683d-937e8841566f@gmail.com> <975E28FE326C22E8CD32DCC8@PSB> <5021a377-e9ca-1580-c2f0-3351b9f5fe04@huitema.net> From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; 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Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="IUhZbvrD0O42eYOv2mFomH03S3aKC00rC" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 21:51:17 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --IUhZbvrD0O42eYOv2mFomH03S3aKC00rC Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="r3FQuigpdIs8ZxThJPIxUFkkO4rXOipa5"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Andrew Campling , Christian Huitema , John C Klensin , Brian E Carpenter Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Message-ID: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? References: <8fa06d77-e73b-aa15-683d-937e8841566f@gmail.com> <975E28FE326C22E8CD32DCC8@PSB> <5021a377-e9ca-1580-c2f0-3351b9f5fe04@huitema.net> In-Reply-To: --r3FQuigpdIs8ZxThJPIxUFkkO4rXOipa5 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------9340D00AFA7695BD0C29F63D" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------9340D00AFA7695BD0C29F63D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 12/10/2020 22:29, Andrew Campling wrote: > This could lead to a situation where it appears to be an > unaccountable tech sector against democratically elected governments, Actually, it mostly seems to be logic and the laws of physics against the democratically elected governments. They claim to want to square the circle and that can't be done. > remembering that the tech sector is responsible for surveillance > capitalism, That is however, true and is certainly something that has gotten worse since e.g. rfc1984 was written. It is worth considering whether there are analagous BCPs that might be useful there. I'll note in passing that rfc7258 defines PM in a way that I at least consider does encompass some of the mechanisms of surveillance capitalism, e.g. devices "calling home" with telemetry that relates to protocol artefacts in ways that can enable broad surveillance. Could be we could improve on that though. Cheers, S. 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([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MVVCoxco5Sr8 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 00:48:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in.huawei.com [45.249.212.189]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E1D4E3A0ED6 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 00:48:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DGGEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.30.72.56]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id C11A432417C1DCF7F629; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 15:48:12 +0800 (CST) Received: from DGGEML512-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.53]) by DGGEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com ([fe80::fca6:7568:4ee3:c776%31]) with mapi id 14.03.0487.000; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 15:48:09 +0800 From: "Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)" To: Eliot Lear CC: "apn@ietf.org" , "network-tokens@ietf.org" , "architecture-discuss@iab.org" Thread-Topic: [arch-d] Question List for APN: Q#8 Thread-Index: AdaV+p6hlEeaFy+VRQKsQQJkF8vE1wBjkL2AAmqYkRA= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 07:48:08 +0000 Message-ID: <4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE1946F21B@dggeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE19435D07@dggeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <95631148-B599-48C7-A295-63DEE53784E4@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <95631148-B599-48C7-A295-63DEE53784E4@cisco.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.153.195.37] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4278D47A901B3041A737953BAA078ADE1946F21Bdggeml512mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Question List for APN: Q#8 X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 07:48:22 -0000 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(CEST) From: Vittorio Bertola To: John C Klensin , Stephen Farrell Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <1399594128.20035.1602586914886@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <47EA7F173A4205E1D1DC87A7@PSB> References: <8fa06d77-e73b-aa15-683d-937e8841566f@gmail.com> <975E28FE326C22E8CD32DCC8@PSB> <5021a377-e9ca-1580-c2f0-3351b9f5fe04@huitema.net> <47EA7F173A4205E1D1DC87A7@PSB> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.4-Rev10 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA 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hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 11:01:59 -0000 > Il 12/10/2020 21:27 John C Klensin ha scritto: > > FWIW, I have noticed that there is one big difference between my > running my own servers for mail, storage, etc., and passing > those off to a large cloud or virtual service providers. If > some governmental entity comes to that provider with sufficient > legal documents or threats (of the sort you mention or of the > use of force) and says "give me his files and records and don't > tell him we asked", they presumably get them and I presumably > don't find out. If they come to me with the same request > (putting aside whether I would be able to destroy everything and > would have the nerve to do that), they presumably get the files > but there is zero chance of keeping me from finding out about > the request. There is also a second big difference: the government that has the right / the opportunity to access your data at a cloud provider may not be the same government that is able to come after you directly. Whether this is good or bad for you depends on the specific set of governments and on how much you like them. > Sometimes that is important, sometimes not, but, > where it is important, distributed architectures and protocols > and operational arrangements that encourage highly distributed > services are prerequisite. On the other hand, the more your data are spread out, the more likely it is that someone somewhere has an opportunity to intercept them. Of course it depends whether you are spreading out entire copies or just subsets, whether each subset is enough to give away meaningful information about you, and so on. But something that strikes me is that the IETF community often seems to think that more distribution of data equates to more privacy, while the basic assumption of almost any privacy law is the exact opposite. > Il 12/10/2020 23:51 Stephen Farrell ha scritto: > > I'll note in passing that rfc7258 defines PM in a way > that I at least consider does encompass some of the > mechanisms of surveillance capitalism, e.g. devices > "calling home" with telemetry that relates to protocol > artefacts in ways that can enable broad surveillance. > Could be we could improve on that though. Even if the IETF fully equated commercial surveillance to governmental surveillance, it would still be hard for many parties to accept the idea that the two things are the same or are similarly bad, or are always bad no matter what. Again, this is an assessment that depends on the specific situation and also, unfortunately, on one's political views of society, but I think that the IETF should develop a more nuanced approach to the topic. -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy From nobody Tue Oct 13 05:48:58 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B1AF3A0FAA for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 05:48:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vBt5WKv3oaAy for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 05:48:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm1-x32f.google.com (mail-wm1-x32f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C1A783A0FA8 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 05:48:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x32f.google.com with SMTP id d3so21625233wma.4 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 05:48:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=IAmXnaVQUz5few08wSumV52CBAF/Wmf6vCtnpNX5QAQ=; b=BKfkWN17B5g4bDXbm7iysyO9EC11agPBsn7S+NWtodwvntEVA2TjZ4fERpZI1Hi49d w/x//giTzhk0VklKcoVy+7vBsIWLvRQevcZ2eBqRDgvaem8AWov4k9vDbCigR/ugjPnr UtG4+vwNsq+qPawY4K+GzNTbyP/zcpb7KsoylO8F/97pyPtXlYUUaQxsDt29CgSNSeCc 8TElkRGCvtC4WXWCOzqxTzQNMYRWsAasZhPRcZS8BCiJpv0Hod+0Pu1d7XZIvOkrMrjs BJFZKGY23+LAn3kpAjU9d0n3cEV51C8uZIoScCrnDAQPVwBUWXX47kthtlpwa5x1sMKS ilYw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=IAmXnaVQUz5few08wSumV52CBAF/Wmf6vCtnpNX5QAQ=; b=eOrb2K5SBO27+Hiz1JlDRzTvNlPpf1BPliE2RgXZpRZq7Wlgdlpui4BbJ/+cwQ/O3d hz5Mz+U2L8tbVCEfgj+lqVP5VfhOkonkZblpqqo53jxhX4CpJlwcDODNm9tW6kC8cNcY Ok0LLZnuinPGbgTMMrDgCCIHOcQ/Bsv/Ia5rJ6m473aQPK4VLw6Jy/7eTy6z5oWQvwjd PtKGlnuS0m+suzEXDFppf5wtC8TsSG8g3iMb3X7YANYMqY4n8c3SFDjYRhJp06NnA2nZ U8BeGnJ+S4MR54S8rX8jj4/xlL2ggwy3WYHt8OsNbomfItE7hQubP7v0vXp438dNPND3 sy5w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531ZGhJ1CroOcqZ7yCPUo13OiaL1gOZJg/jAM1DPabNCP8U5CikX XXBKj6Yl8LLm6oThImjBTrs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyTVxvWQArs9Ark0vrvhzH3JHulrJG3kYwUgCJNQalmM0HhZoqpjBTQMxnJX3eXTChHSGktlw== X-Received: by 2002:a7b:ca42:: with SMTP id m2mr16002391wml.145.1602593333226; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 05:48:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from broadband.bt.com ([2a00:23c5:3395:c901:5d29:86d5:3f0b:55d5]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c185sm5647615wma.44.2020.10.13.05.48.51 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 13 Oct 2020 05:48:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Stewart Bryant Message-Id: <586DC363-B5F8-4727-8734-815F3E17F345@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D91DF4A2-CF2C-482E-B91B-2039D0FF1A30" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 13:48:50 +0100 In-Reply-To: Cc: Stewart Bryant , Andrew Campling , Christian Huitema , John C Klensin , Brian E Carpenter , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" To: Stephen Farrell References: <8fa06d77-e73b-aa15-683d-937e8841566f@gmail.com> <975E28FE326C22E8CD32DCC8@PSB> <5021a377-e9ca-1580-c2f0-3351b9f5fe04@huitema.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 12:48:56 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D91DF4A2-CF2C-482E-B91B-2039D0FF1A30 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On 12 Oct 2020, at 22:51, Stephen Farrell = wrote: >=20 >> This could lead to a situation where it appears to be an >> unaccountable tech sector against democratically elected governments, >=20 > Actually, it mostly seems to be logic and the laws of > physics against the democratically elected governments. > They claim to want to square the circle and that can't > be done. Stephen, Those governments are looking for ways to stop real harm to real people. We have to accept that we have unintentionally played a part in causing = some of that harm. So the problem that we have a moral responsibility to address is to find = methods that stop or minimise those harms. The problem may be hard but so were many other problems that we now take = for granted as solved. Stewart --Apple-Mail=_D91DF4A2-CF2C-482E-B91B-2039D0FF1A30 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

On 12 Oct 2020, at 22:51, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:

This = could lead to a situation where it appears to be an
unaccountable tech sector against democratically elected = governments,

Actually, it mostly seems to be logic and the laws = of
physics = against the democratically elected governments.
They claim to = want to square the circle and that can't
be done.

Stephen,

Those governments are looking for ways = to stop real harm to real people.

We have to accept that we have = unintentionally played a part in causing some of that harm.

So the problem that we = have a moral responsibility to address is to find methods that stop or = minimise those harms.

The problem may be hard but so were many other problems that = we now take for granted as solved.

Stewart


= --Apple-Mail=_D91DF4A2-CF2C-482E-B91B-2039D0FF1A30-- From nobody Tue Oct 13 06:18:54 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC8203A0FBF for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 06:18:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.212 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.212 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vINkaH97pD51 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 06:18:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C5BEF3A112C for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 06:17:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DBF3BE3E; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 14:17:56 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LgycUVjmgb-n; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 14:17:41 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DDA99BE2F; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 14:17:40 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1602595061; bh=liLfvxrDoLF6NHf3izt9yEATKzlDelW4XGQd+6awNsQ=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=140Jj/y8WKihKPek68Uyh+788DwxRNAMPizMaDVN/NFJ85vjVZ3i4at/VvncfVdPY 9I5uF1/YEKx817vL26DZU610i969ixwwDtK/wFKzmN2U68wCUuJHeYW1wb7Mkn0UkT 8If+cpujwfAa9Z2hzYZL9zljDXXJUCl2u8b+D4ZU= To: Stewart Bryant Cc: Andrew Campling , Christian Huitema , John C Klensin , Brian E Carpenter , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" References: <8fa06d77-e73b-aa15-683d-937e8841566f@gmail.com> <975E28FE326C22E8CD32DCC8@PSB> <5021a377-e9ca-1580-c2f0-3351b9f5fe04@huitema.net> <586DC363-B5F8-4727-8734-815F3E17F345@gmail.com> From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; 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Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <586DC363-B5F8-4727-8734-815F3E17F345@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="NGok4uylgxt6gfLP95ucknoBwlfYIabvH" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 13:18:53 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --NGok4uylgxt6gfLP95ucknoBwlfYIabvH Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="cC8vo83UP4UD2vRLh0gDCEZ2QYhQPEmRy"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Stewart Bryant Cc: Andrew Campling , Christian Huitema , John C Klensin , Brian E Carpenter , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Message-ID: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? References: <8fa06d77-e73b-aa15-683d-937e8841566f@gmail.com> <975E28FE326C22E8CD32DCC8@PSB> <5021a377-e9ca-1580-c2f0-3351b9f5fe04@huitema.net> <586DC363-B5F8-4727-8734-815F3E17F345@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <586DC363-B5F8-4727-8734-815F3E17F345@gmail.com> --cC8vo83UP4UD2vRLh0gDCEZ2QYhQPEmRy Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------8AD17898F2EEA05F16004BE7" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------8AD17898F2EEA05F16004BE7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 13/10/2020 13:48, Stewart Bryant wrote: > > Stephen, >=20 > Those governments are looking for ways to stop real harm to real > people. Some are, yes. That is not all they are interested in doing of course (they all do like a bit of spying here and there:-) and all that varies enormously from one to another government. Some governments want these changes in order to do what I would call harm. >=20 > We have to accept that we have unintentionally played a part in > causing some of that harm. And a lot of good. IMO, on balance, and after having done this stuff for >3 decades, I'm happy that we've done overall far more good (with crypto in protocols) than harm. (That doesn't include surveillance capitalism, but that isn't the same issue.) > So the problem that we have a moral responsibility to address is to > find methods that stop or minimise those harms. I don't accept that. The "we" isn't clear, but what does seem clear is that meeting the requirements posed is (IMO anyway) likely to do more harm. I've never seen any proponent of borked crypto do a proper analysis of the damage that would be done - they almost always seem to approach it as mostly a PR exercise and so go straight to the "think of the children" and "what about the terrorists" talking points. > The problem may be hard but so were many other problems that we now > take for granted as solved. I didn't say "hard." I said "squaring the circle." The latter isn't possible and is much more like the "magic" that is being asked for, and has been asked for since the Clipper days, without any technical progress at all in those 25 years. 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AOAM533qpgKjnnESlbrOZmFSWG1ky06Vb58bW+m/7NcWej3Aqqtc779I nv+U7PpvziMSr6OYeqQ0Pv4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwKNdMfYyS64AcIx75bLJQorOUU0t868iBVlh6esVsKPoodDJrbMa34FQHPUmlzi5iHeLLQkg== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:7f0f:: with SMTP id a15mr15253109wmd.97.1602596087104; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 06:34:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from broadband.bt.com ([2a00:23c5:3395:c901:5d29:86d5:3f0b:55d5]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t83sm10023149wmt.43.2020.10.13.06.34.45 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 13 Oct 2020 06:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Stewart Bryant In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 14:34:45 +0100 Cc: Stewart Bryant , Andrew Campling , Christian Huitema , John C Klensin , Brian E Carpenter , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <65CD5A4A-E7AD-4051-90A6-31AD536AB0AD@gmail.com> References: <8fa06d77-e73b-aa15-683d-937e8841566f@gmail.com> <975E28FE326C22E8CD32DCC8@PSB> <5021a377-e9ca-1580-c2f0-3351b9f5fe04@huitema.net> <586DC363-B5F8-4727-8734-815F3E17F345@gmail.com> To: Stephen Farrell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 13:34:50 -0000 > On 13 Oct 2020, at 14:17, Stephen Farrell = wrote: >=20 >=20 > Hiya, >=20 > On 13/10/2020 13:48, Stewart Bryant wrote: >>=20 >> Stephen, >>=20 >> Those governments are looking for ways to stop real harm to real >> people. >=20 > Some are, yes. That is not all they are interested in doing > of course (they all do like a bit of spying here and there:-) > and all that varies enormously from one to another government. > Some governments want these changes in order to do what I would > call harm. Engineering calls for a pragmatic balance of results and costs. =46rom where I sit, I see a significant downside in allowing bad people = to do bad things to innocent people. >=20 >>=20 >> We have to accept that we have unintentionally played a part in >> causing some of that harm. >=20 > And a lot of good. IMO, on balance, and after having done > this stuff for >3 decades, I'm happy that we've done overall > far more good (with crypto in protocols) than harm. (That > doesn't include surveillance capitalism, but that isn't the > same issue.) >=20 >> So the problem that we have a moral responsibility to address is to >> find methods that stop or minimise those harms. >=20 > I don't accept that. The "we" isn't clear, but what > does seem clear is that meeting the requirements posed > is (IMO anyway) likely to do more harm. I've never > seen any proponent of borked crypto do a proper analysis > of the damage that would be done - they almost always > seem to approach it as mostly a PR exercise and so go > straight to the "think of the children" and "what about > the terrorists" talking points. Well I am certainly concerned about those two groups. So the interesting question is whether there is any other way of = addressing the requirement without borking the crypto, at least for the = majority of applications used by those causing the harm. >=20 >> The problem may be hard but so were many other problems that we now >> take for granted as solved. >=20 > I didn't say "hard." I said "squaring the circle." The > latter isn't possible and is much more like the "magic" > that is being asked for, and has been asked for since > the Clipper days, without any technical progress at all > in those 25 years. Are, but that is my point. Maybe we cannot exactly square the circle, = but perhaps, if we look at the problem in the right way we can create a = sufficiently close approximation that it satisfies the requirement? Stewart >=20 > S. >=20 >>=20 >> Stewart >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 > <0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc> From nobody Tue Oct 13 06:47:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B1AE3A0FD2 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 06:47:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.311 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.311 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gbvm5UtHomls for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 06:46:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C4723A0CDB for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 06:46:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C9cKZ3BZHz6G84t; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 06:46:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1602596818; bh=B6Ch73RV+5ja+2/e4T8G6xIrSHXvU7Tra1jARedrOv8=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=EbjCKaF6Tu+pVWl/e19D9F9by2Uzy8uZ208hJkoosk4SarTdFq2pGYHlf2BLAjzPL GxG+pukKF+EHOBIaHvzEKTMU4FL7YhPalrZ3MdL4jjkkwqFUeG6YccWWhAv0EAj704 Pc2egBBLlpayfWc5B1zR2pAkeMg41MjZ0xM5M52s= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.128.43] (unknown [50.225.209.66]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4C9cKY6Dg6z6G8pk; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 06:46:57 -0700 (PDT) To: Stewart Bryant Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" References: <8fa06d77-e73b-aa15-683d-937e8841566f@gmail.com> <975E28FE326C22E8CD32DCC8@PSB> <5021a377-e9ca-1580-c2f0-3351b9f5fe04@huitema.net> <586DC363-B5F8-4727-8734-815F3E17F345@gmail.com> <65CD5A4A-E7AD-4051-90A6-31AD536AB0AD@gmail.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <41765f57-b3b6-9eb4-1450-0776d02c1bab@joelhalpern.com> Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 09:46:56 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <65CD5A4A-E7AD-4051-90A6-31AD536AB0AD@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 13:47:00 -0000 Stewart, please do not describe this as "allowing people to do bad things to innocent people". We are not "allowing"anything. We are trying to properly protect communication, without regard to the content. Recasting it as the IETF allowing harm misrepresents almost all aspects of the problem. As for squaring teh circle, I tend to trust the many crypto professionals who have repeatedly looked at this trying to find compromises, and the many reports they have produced about it. Yours, Joel On 10/13/2020 9:34 AM, Stewart Bryant wrote: > > >> On 13 Oct 2020, at 14:17, Stephen Farrell wrote: >> >> >> Hiya, >> >> On 13/10/2020 13:48, Stewart Bryant wrote: >>> >>> Stephen, >>> >>> Those governments are looking for ways to stop real harm to real >>> people. >> >> Some are, yes. That is not all they are interested in doing >> of course (they all do like a bit of spying here and there:-) >> and all that varies enormously from one to another government. >> Some governments want these changes in order to do what I would >> call harm. > > Engineering calls for a pragmatic balance of results and costs. > >>From where I sit, I see a significant downside in allowing bad people to do bad things to innocent people. > >> >>> >>> We have to accept that we have unintentionally played a part in >>> causing some of that harm. >> >> And a lot of good. IMO, on balance, and after having done >> this stuff for >3 decades, I'm happy that we've done overall >> far more good (with crypto in protocols) than harm. (That >> doesn't include surveillance capitalism, but that isn't the >> same issue.) >> >>> So the problem that we have a moral responsibility to address is to >>> find methods that stop or minimise those harms. >> >> I don't accept that. The "we" isn't clear, but what >> does seem clear is that meeting the requirements posed >> is (IMO anyway) likely to do more harm. I've never >> seen any proponent of borked crypto do a proper analysis >> of the damage that would be done - they almost always >> seem to approach it as mostly a PR exercise and so go >> straight to the "think of the children" and "what about >> the terrorists" talking points. > > Well I am certainly concerned about those two groups. > > So the interesting question is whether there is any other way of addressing the requirement without borking the crypto, at least for the majority of applications used by those causing the harm. > >> >>> The problem may be hard but so were many other problems that we now >>> take for granted as solved. >> >> I didn't say "hard." I said "squaring the circle." The >> latter isn't possible and is much more like the "magic" >> that is being asked for, and has been asked for since >> the Clipper days, without any technical progress at all >> in those 25 years. > > Are, but that is my point. Maybe we cannot exactly square the circle, but perhaps, if we look at the problem in the right way we can create a sufficiently close approximation that it satisfies the requirement? > > Stewart > > > >> >> S. >> >>> >>> Stewart >>> >>> >>> >> <0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc> > > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > From nobody Tue Oct 13 07:28:52 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFD713A03F2 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 07:28:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VgX2paw7rXo1 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 07:28:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x432.google.com (mail-wr1-x432.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::432]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F94D3A03F1 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 07:28:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x432.google.com with SMTP id n18so24330330wrs.5 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 07:28:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=rUYASCvLjwShE0RA6N/wy1NYD2k9AnE90Ie1OafaK+M=; b=SdaMLTXk0nautf7BvZ3xz66tdECr2+HeLTumPQxoh3dIii77Q5CE15x7tC21RsVKNY eEoxuzngoElzMM/QRfuEWGuqapSMRlTDwAfAQIUD87tOB8WT2DoRZb/VuBso8ACaHW1f 4K/faeS1LckmvVsvglQ3m/DZG3/mGdI6RBnxTfITtRWOWpNikTE8CCod8AHc864jJDQz x5y7B0SjDUeZ7/8i976Zj1xW049aau+Rpqca2jBOXpUTb+rd71svzfBekCElSD2JtcxJ dRLhnGeEepfQVjLNbT2Al3nmo3y6GoEyWSuhPdMspya8P4JxTG1NzPcT83O/XZaAxWy9 wKjw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=rUYASCvLjwShE0RA6N/wy1NYD2k9AnE90Ie1OafaK+M=; b=PMj5LNGenDlbq3bWbkum4FLCL72rih8nBkL1jdhgvkI8BvX4em3HOq4hWHPPVqnHqD 5GdMFuC/HfvVSiDO7W+Jp8PWw7/TMlzn0rfUbQQS2s9qpibSG/Mo/rNhBmJLVlK4bit1 rdPT5KXehZVKf/eRaK1wJbiWJIj155CRtZeG3pcDZphEhJq4FoETB7ueNLnbHQxNvL8l uLl1c3MBtDxhbIV8fuNyVYnGY9zhqWFg4qD0Wx3xbGkqa3fTdRslUd0gfc35QsetX1JW qCC+VvsnMciVgVexVTKmxD7+BoTGmTw3GnPj3jx1pIA4o5srGaE6R26MX4kfvmLWq9iR YGjw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531Y6xfo1tHzJHHysAV7YurL+5wHKssxq3sMCCUlQ5M/UpHKDa9t nnje6SRd8fDVqxGG997NIuTMCbJrdFE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy9kadFKjOuWPZ5X6Sjm8KseVJnrLaGhkUDjJbFk0iaJL97fQOyAGM+LoK/x9lQmB1I8FMaJw== X-Received: by 2002:adf:df07:: with SMTP id y7mr39474933wrl.347.1602599327476; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 07:28:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from broadband.bt.com ([2a00:23c5:3395:c901:5d29:86d5:3f0b:55d5]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y14sm48469wma.48.2020.10.13.07.28.46 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 13 Oct 2020 07:28:46 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Stewart Bryant In-Reply-To: <41765f57-b3b6-9eb4-1450-0776d02c1bab@joelhalpern.com> Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 15:28:45 +0100 Cc: Stewart Bryant , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <8fa06d77-e73b-aa15-683d-937e8841566f@gmail.com> <975E28FE326C22E8CD32DCC8@PSB> <5021a377-e9ca-1580-c2f0-3351b9f5fe04@huitema.net> <586DC363-B5F8-4727-8734-815F3E17F345@gmail.com> <65CD5A4A-E7AD-4051-90A6-31AD536AB0AD@gmail.com> <41765f57-b3b6-9eb4-1450-0776d02c1bab@joelhalpern.com> To: Joel Halpern X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 14:28:51 -0000 > On 13 Oct 2020, at 14:46, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >=20 > Stewart, please do not describe this as "allowing people to do bad = things to innocent people". We are not "allowing"anything. We are = trying to properly protect communication, without regard to the content. >=20 > Recasting it as the IETF allowing harm misrepresents almost all = aspects of the problem. Joel, we are the current shepherds of the base technology that enables = the harm. You could say that car manufacturers do not kill pedestrians, drivers = kill pedestrians, but by governmnets forcing car manufacturers to change = their design a lot less pedestrians are killed these days. So the = question as I see it is whether we can do anything, even if slightly = expensive or inconvenient, that mitigates the key harms. >=20 > As for squaring teh circle, I tend to trust the many crypto = professionals who have repeatedly looked at this trying to find = compromises, and the many reports they have produced about it. >=20 In 1956 we were not sure we could launch a satellite, let alone walk on = the Moon 13 years later. I consider us to be quoting the convention = wisdom of 1956 without looking at what we might be able to do in 1969. Stewart > Yours, > Joel >=20 > On 10/13/2020 9:34 AM, Stewart Bryant wrote: >>> On 13 Oct 2020, at 14:17, Stephen Farrell = wrote: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Hiya, >>>=20 >>> On 13/10/2020 13:48, Stewart Bryant wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Stephen, >>>>=20 >>>> Those governments are looking for ways to stop real harm to real >>>> people. >>>=20 >>> Some are, yes. That is not all they are interested in doing >>> of course (they all do like a bit of spying here and there:-) >>> and all that varies enormously from one to another government. >>> Some governments want these changes in order to do what I would >>> call harm. >> Engineering calls for a pragmatic balance of results and costs. >>> =46rom where I sit, I see a significant downside in allowing bad = people to do bad things to innocent people. >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> We have to accept that we have unintentionally played a part in >>>> causing some of that harm. >>>=20 >>> And a lot of good. IMO, on balance, and after having done >>> this stuff for >3 decades, I'm happy that we've done overall >>> far more good (with crypto in protocols) than harm. (That >>> doesn't include surveillance capitalism, but that isn't the >>> same issue.) >>>=20 >>>> So the problem that we have a moral responsibility to address is to >>>> find methods that stop or minimise those harms. >>>=20 >>> I don't accept that. The "we" isn't clear, but what >>> does seem clear is that meeting the requirements posed >>> is (IMO anyway) likely to do more harm. I've never >>> seen any proponent of borked crypto do a proper analysis >>> of the damage that would be done - they almost always >>> seem to approach it as mostly a PR exercise and so go >>> straight to the "think of the children" and "what about >>> the terrorists" talking points. >> Well I am certainly concerned about those two groups. >> So the interesting question is whether there is any other way of = addressing the requirement without borking the crypto, at least for the = majority of applications used by those causing the harm. >>>=20 >>>> The problem may be hard but so were many other problems that we now >>>> take for granted as solved. >>>=20 >>> I didn't say "hard." I said "squaring the circle." The >>> latter isn't possible and is much more like the "magic" >>> that is being asked for, and has been asked for since >>> the Clipper days, without any technical progress at all >>> in those 25 years. >> Are, but that is my point. Maybe we cannot exactly square the circle, = but perhaps, if we look at the problem in the right way we can create a = sufficiently close approximation that it satisfies the requirement? >> Stewart >>>=20 >>> S. >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Stewart >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>> <0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc> >> _______________________________________________ >> Architecture-discuss mailing list >> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss From nobody Tue Oct 13 07:29:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2928C3A0407 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 07:29:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.65 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.65 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GAnQyaZHwuWY for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 07:29:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8DDA43A0400 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 07:29:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCA38548042; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 16:29:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id D63C4440059; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 16:29:38 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 16:29:38 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <20201013142938.GB55488@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <8fa06d77-e73b-aa15-683d-937e8841566f@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <8fa06d77-e73b-aa15-683d-937e8841566f@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 14:29:48 -0000 Some crazy thoughts: One technical aspect IMHO worth of technical consideration is to think and work along the motivation of RFC3924. From my understanding, Fred did this to provide more awareness and transparency of perpass technology used (i hope he will correct me if this is wrong). Aka: Government actions such as filtering and perpass will increase, for better or worse. They may only happen at application layer or at network layer. What technical stndards could be build to record, track and supervise these government actions ? For example: could we create standardized methods for more transparency of these government actions and policies ? Of course, there are a lot of policy and dministrative aspects to any such means for transparency, e.g.: who is given the ability to review and control the actions of the legal enforcers. Could the metadata about filtering and perpass for example be anonymized such that control and review of such legal enforcers could more easily be done by more independent entities. Could there be a data-model about the metadata that an SP could directly expose to such independent watchdogs ? Think from the minimum to the maximum: Total number of new filter/perpass requests in a period as an example of a minimum. Any degree of visibility IMHO would help. Time delayed availability to not impact immediate executive action etc. pp! Aka: This is not talking about defining how to do filter/perpass, but how to monitor and control those who do perform those legal actions. IMHO: There is not only more privacy for individuals, there is also the need for more transparency of legal activities. IMHO, the core reason why we have the quagmire about democratic government actions is their secrecy, unaccountability and therefore uncontrollability. Practically speaking, SPs could simply create databases of all executives LI requests/actions, and then regularily but accidentially the database is leaked like all our credit card numbers regularily are. Cheers Toerless On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 08:27:05AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Not to mention RFC 7258. > > Orders from the Top: The EU???s Timetable for Dismantling End-to-End Encryption: > https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/10/orders-top-eus-timetable-dismantling-end-end-encryption > > Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime > https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Technology/Five-Eyes-and-Japan-call-for-Facebook-backdoor-to-monitor-crime > > Regards > Brian Carpenter > > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Tue Oct 13 08:25:45 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 548033A0CF0 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 08:25:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.651 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.651 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TyybqpmIOZDA for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 08:25:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 54EFB3A0E6E for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 08:25:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CD97548441; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 17:24:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 56C26440059; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 17:24:56 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 17:24:56 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: Stephen Farrell Cc: Stewart Bryant , Andrew Campling , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20201013152456.GD55488@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <8fa06d77-e73b-aa15-683d-937e8841566f@gmail.com> <975E28FE326C22E8CD32DCC8@PSB> <5021a377-e9ca-1580-c2f0-3351b9f5fe04@huitema.net> <586DC363-B5F8-4727-8734-815F3E17F345@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 15:25:44 -0000 On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 02:17:36PM +0100, Stephen Farrell wrote: > I didn't say "hard." I said "squaring the circle." The > latter isn't possible and is much more like the "magic" > that is being asked for, and has been asked for since > the Clipper days, without any technical progress at all > in those 25 years. If we find encryption that can only be cracked by the good people when they do good things, then i am sure we will also find Unicorns, because both are mythical creatures from the same alien planet, so i am really excited for this to happen! I will sell the encryption to the government and keep the Unicorn. Ok. beside cynicism i can only think about better school education about this. It will be tough to teach middle school children about the fundamental limitations about complex systems, but we have more and more of such problems. From nobody Tue Oct 13 11:01:19 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 788763A0E25 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 11:01:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XnbraNpm_Vea for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 11:01:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8844D3A0DA4 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 11:00:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1kSObV-000DDp-5S; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 14:00:53 -0400 Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 14:00:46 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Stewart Bryant , Stephen Farrell cc: Andrew Campling , Christian Huitema , Brian E Carpenter , architecture-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <1AAC6944E2F493C97D78DD3B@PSB> In-Reply-To: <65CD5A4A-E7AD-4051-90A6-31AD536AB0AD@gmail.com> References: <8fa06d77-e73b-aa15-683d-937e8841566f@gmail.com> <975E28FE326C22E8CD32DCC8@PSB> <5021a377-e9ca-1580-c2f0-3351b9f5fe04@huitema.net> <586DC363-B5F8-4727-8734-815F3E17F345@gmail.com> <65CD5A4A-E7AD-4051-90A6-31AD536AB0AD@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 18:01:17 -0000 --On Tuesday, October 13, 2020 14:34 +0100 Stewart Bryant wrote: >> On 13 Oct 2020, at 14:17, Stephen Farrell >> wrote: >> >> Hiya, >> >> On 13/10/2020 13:48, Stewart Bryant wrote: >>> >>> Stephen, >>> >>> Those governments are looking for ways to stop real harm to >>> real people. >> >> Some are, yes. That is not all they are interested in doing >> of course (they all do like a bit of spying here and there:-) >> and all that varies enormously from one to another government. >> Some governments want these changes in order to do what I >> would call harm. > > Engineering calls for a pragmatic balance of results and costs. > > From where I sit, I see a significant downside in allowing bad > people to do bad things to innocent people. >>> We have to accept that we have unintentionally played a part >>> in causing some of that harm. >> >> And a lot of good. IMO, on balance, and after having done >> this stuff for >3 decades, I'm happy that we've done overall >> far more good (with crypto in protocols) than harm. (That >> doesn't include surveillance capitalism, but that isn't the >> same issue.) But unless we can figure out a way to make that distinction a lot more clear to those who do not share the same technical, economic, and political views, it is not clear that there is a difference between "surveillance capitalism" and assorted things you consider "overall good". Not disagreeing, just pointing out that such distinctions are not universally accepted, that one can favor availability of crypto in protocols and still want restrictions and access in some cases. I can't tell if Stewart and I are in agreement or not, but all I'm suggesting is that we need to see many of these things as relatively complex systems that involve the policy-makers (however clueless, friendly, or hostile one might consider them) as well as the technology. That means doing a better job of looking at possible tradeoffs and then being explicit about what they are and what choices we are making and why. If there are different types of attackers and we can optimize for resisting one type and not the other, then we need to get that out in the open and be explicit about the decisions or compromises we are making and why. If both "more concentration" and "having things more widely distributed" have things going for them, then we need to look at how to balance the two, not just denounce one or the other and pretend there are no side effects. As an important example, while the message has been clear from crypto experts that there is no way to build back doors into systems and avoid having those back doors create vulnerabilities, "we" may need to think more carefully about alternatives (technical or otherwise) to explain to regulators and legislators. If they decide that something must be done and we convince them that, e.g., law enforcement access to encrypted streams is impossible without creating larger problems, they will (and have in the past) consider banning crypto entirely (something we all agree would be a bad outcome). So, when I first read the subject line and first part of Brian's note, I interpreted "revisit" as "maybe it is time to move away from the absolutes of "doing that is bad and won't work" or "that is an evil and will hurt the Internet" and to start looking more at why others might think that a particular approach might be worth it despite the disadvantages, We should, IMO, be willing to look at those issues to see if we can find alternatives or middle grounds. >... john From nobody Tue Oct 13 12:14:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51F743A1159 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 12:14:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.212 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.212 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Tue, 13 Oct 2020 20:14:18 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1602616459; bh=R69GI+WhljIU3KokdaGTkpIzZx6fF714G6Jzf23Rnlw=; h=To:Cc:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=U6jZRcjBRtIrZD2CydzL+ouaJFJOf+S5/IH1ctDVgrfOxFf85R/4Wj1jD1XWwJmLZ 0dBVfqQX0ydZJ5YERz9IdFrbPBaVp3QadHVrlDjGbve//Jf5RLBVO2/PwLk/6k0ldb VtGQz4AEYXN1WGOhVYweLPiCuf4Nn77g96oqAviU= To: John C Klensin , Stewart Bryant Cc: Andrew Campling , Christian Huitema , Brian E Carpenter , architecture-discuss@ietf.org References: <8fa06d77-e73b-aa15-683d-937e8841566f@gmail.com> <975E28FE326C22E8CD32DCC8@PSB> <5021a377-e9ca-1580-c2f0-3351b9f5fe04@huitema.net> <586DC363-B5F8-4727-8734-815F3E17F345@gmail.com> <65CD5A4A-E7AD-4051-90A6-31AD536AB0AD@gmail.com> <1AAC6944E2F493C97D78DD3B@PSB> From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABtDJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPokCQAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxLkCDQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: <0e2cc11d-fb7c-63ba-9f4c-4cd71ec7d3e1@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 20:14:17 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1AAC6944E2F493C97D78DD3B@PSB> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="1yvNmYJODC7dRm3fsKxcP2T7yvB8ztnsz" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 19:14:34 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --1yvNmYJODC7dRm3fsKxcP2T7yvB8ztnsz Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="ogkwMGM0MdWyeBrCl97YlEacsln6anIff"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: John C Klensin , Stewart Bryant Cc: Andrew Campling , Christian Huitema , Brian E Carpenter , architecture-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <0e2cc11d-fb7c-63ba-9f4c-4cd71ec7d3e1@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? References: <8fa06d77-e73b-aa15-683d-937e8841566f@gmail.com> <975E28FE326C22E8CD32DCC8@PSB> <5021a377-e9ca-1580-c2f0-3351b9f5fe04@huitema.net> <586DC363-B5F8-4727-8734-815F3E17F345@gmail.com> <65CD5A4A-E7AD-4051-90A6-31AD536AB0AD@gmail.com> <1AAC6944E2F493C97D78DD3B@PSB> In-Reply-To: <1AAC6944E2F493C97D78DD3B@PSB> --ogkwMGM0MdWyeBrCl97YlEacsln6anIff Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------55798110EE599DB41DFBF938" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------55798110EE599DB41DFBF938 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 13/10/2020 19:00, John C Klensin wrote: > So, when I > first read the subject line and first part of Brian's note, I > interpreted "revisit" as "maybe it is time to move away from the > absolutes of "doing that is bad and won't work" or "that is an > evil and will hurt the Internet" and to start looking more at > why others might think that a particular approach might be worth > it despite the disadvantages, We should, IMO, be willing to > look at those issues to see if we can find alternatives or > middle grounds. I don't believe our current BCPs (nor 2404) are at all absolutist. Describing them that way seems to me fairly inaccurate. That is a form of argument that one sees repeated though: "I disagree with what you write/say. What you say is absolutist. I'm reasonable and prefer a middle ground. Therefore you are wrong to not compromise regardless of any particular set of facts (even if what I want is not possible;-)" I'd find it hard to be convinced that compromise or some middle-ground was desirable if we have engineering cast as one "extreme" and a desire for magic as the other. But maybe we're better off not re-litigating rfc1984 though... FWIW, I thought Brian's mail might turn into considerations as to the risks of client-side near-monopolies - the fact we live with those creates an opportunity to mandate that certain software or functionality (e.g. a snooping process, reporting to someone someone else has chosen) can easily become a requirement for nearly all devices in a particular region. I'm not sure how much of that is within the IETF's purview though, but that is one of the angles of attack that those who'd like to snoop more seem to be taking, rather than failing yet again to square that circle. I do agree though that the fact that some of those widely deployed client platforms are intimately involved in surveilling for advertising purposes makes it harder to argue that it's somehow bad for governments to want or insist on similar things. 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<586DC363-B5F8-4727-8734-815F3E17F345@gmail.com> <65CD5A4A-E7AD-4051-90A6-31AD536AB0AD@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 08:53:54 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <65CD5A4A-E7AD-4051-90A6-31AD536AB0AD@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 19:54:04 -0000 Hi Stewart, On 14-Oct-20 02:34, Stewart Bryant wrote: > > >> On 13 Oct 2020, at 14:17, Stephen Farrell wrote: >> >> >> Hiya, >> >> On 13/10/2020 13:48, Stewart Bryant wrote: >>> >>> Stephen, >>> >>> Those governments are looking for ways to stop real harm to real >>> people. >> >> Some are, yes. That is not all they are interested in doing >> of course (they all do like a bit of spying here and there:-) >> and all that varies enormously from one to another government. >> Some governments want these changes in order to do what I would >> call harm. > > Engineering calls for a pragmatic balance of results and costs. > > From where I sit, I see a significant downside in allowing bad people to do bad things to innocent people. Please explain what has changed in the fundamentals since RFC1984 and RFC2804 were published, and what *technical* errors in those documents now need correction. We all agree, I think, that many bad things have been done using the Internet. How many of those were done using cryptography, and how many bad things have been *prevented* by cryptography are both objectively unknowable. Therefore, we simply don't know the balance between good and evil here. IMHO, we should stick to our technical knitting, and that's the basis on which the above RFCs were published. Brian > >> >>> >>> We have to accept that we have unintentionally played a part in >>> causing some of that harm. >> >> And a lot of good. IMO, on balance, and after having done >> this stuff for >3 decades, I'm happy that we've done overall >> far more good (with crypto in protocols) than harm. (That >> doesn't include surveillance capitalism, but that isn't the >> same issue.) >> >>> So the problem that we have a moral responsibility to address is to >>> find methods that stop or minimise those harms. >> >> I don't accept that. The "we" isn't clear, but what >> does seem clear is that meeting the requirements posed >> is (IMO anyway) likely to do more harm. I've never >> seen any proponent of borked crypto do a proper analysis >> of the damage that would be done - they almost always >> seem to approach it as mostly a PR exercise and so go >> straight to the "think of the children" and "what about >> the terrorists" talking points. > > Well I am certainly concerned about those two groups. > > So the interesting question is whether there is any other way of addressing the requirement without borking the crypto, at least for the majority of applications used by those causing the harm. > >> >>> The problem may be hard but so were many other problems that we now >>> take for granted as solved. >> >> I didn't say "hard." I said "squaring the circle." The >> latter isn't possible and is much more like the "magic" >> that is being asked for, and has been asked for since >> the Clipper days, without any technical progress at all >> in those 25 years. > > Are, but that is my point. Maybe we cannot exactly square the circle, but perhaps, if we look at the problem in the right way we can create a sufficiently close approximation that it satisfies the requirement? > > Stewart > > > >> >> S. >> >>> >>> Stewart >>> >>> >>> >> <0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc> > > . > From nobody Tue Oct 13 13:34:03 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96A7E3A111D for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 13:34:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=netorgft5189650.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ub9E3Jd3qEHD for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 13:34:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from GBR01-LO2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr100044.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.10.44]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E78093A111C for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 13:33:59 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=UwHAx1hv3f9S9U7VDv61pENsLJRpe3tO8BkZHbrc05p8IScPRQAWvcmulpgigzpiVRQRzLpo5zphJeSz0Crouumx+EaIfxmeuPWU29dQD5P+JIwVt1ntULTefzxNkqszARtRTwjXcMBmzZ1BULGCgVCdisMQnaNKtUGr4MhVGc4OLLq9J2w5nmqPeT6TolyX3bPTSeISWBqo0675+HYgJZQ/WUVs/v4+BTSa+NIHlrqxCFcIchbe457jDjP0pCs8s55etFVt6gGAjM4TkOBV5tlEX2A9QSUCAmxVdPdcH6gIhi5IeGNDk57fcNHCQ7Qq4HEfj86SezF8q6xSq7UXdw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=FUFGGKJFfDIPWlDUBXNHT/1QwYpw/y+Uoy7+9k1I3YA=; b=hW1aup9yWHJe+Fr/mUr5lVoHy5JNaWxGRPeFBmo6QbVOiXPIwu024EpzQPa6gdE9VTJv0xOGupyf78gyoQ7GtUYlkuIy6VoJYvxLvcp/6qE9S/8lrauBWV96O9fSJ1VfU4Lts0RDg5xQli8voJehWJeMibOof4yM+hcKrvYXqifMlOz4qxpS1UzP7xTH8v9NqBuMrEzfekW3MaApphweuiqF6Pvx/dxVflvzg9k6L4LTFZi1NLnACli1iARD9irJnlOkcDSyAYglS7tFq2uKmpIQf1JW3U16rp50fOnW7f/2CtdpMoKvd0TnzDGaH6iN9SmHFvkiDpKQ/y9OshuOaw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=419.consulting; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=419.consulting; dkim=pass header.d=419.consulting; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=NETORGFT5189650.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-NETORGFT5189650-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=FUFGGKJFfDIPWlDUBXNHT/1QwYpw/y+Uoy7+9k1I3YA=; b=VLQH8Ulvtyceg1CBioHS98pVmNRALgI8NF4dQQ0/dAhuD8XQ+1RpccwUIKdMSitN35XRZJ2xE8CryyxGDz4OWRGWrTqH+FlfU9dK5E523pEgmzso85ubI+uiM0iW/6ZnxaJ2+uBRM4W4vsOcqtYcagqugeV+aZsANe0Gv4CmmvA= Received: from LO2P265MB0573.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:600:71::15) by LNXP265MB1035.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:600:7b::10) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3455.22; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 20:33:57 +0000 Received: from LO2P265MB0573.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::199b:a430:6264:9bf6]) by LO2P265MB0573.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::199b:a430:6264:9bf6%7]) with mapi id 15.20.3455.030; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 20:33:57 +0000 From: Andrew Campling To: Brian E Carpenter , Stewart Bryant CC: Stephen Farrell , Christian Huitema , John C Klensin , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? 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X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 20:34:02 -0000 DQpPbiAxMy1PY3QtMjAgMjA6NTQsIEJyaWFuIEUgQ2FycGVudGVyIHdyb3RlOiANCg0KPiBXZSBh bGwgYWdyZWUsIEkgdGhpbmssIHRoYXQgbWFueSBiYWQgdGhpbmdzIGhhdmUgYmVlbiBkb25lIHVz aW5nIHRoZSBJbnRlcm5ldC4gSG93IA0KPiBtYW55IG9mIHRob3NlIHdlcmUgZG9uZSB1c2luZyBj cnlwdG9ncmFwaHksIGFuZCBob3cgbWFueSBiYWQgdGhpbmdzIGhhdmUgYmVlbiANCj4gKnByZXZl bnRlZCogYnkgY3J5cHRvZ3JhcGh5IGFyZSBib3RoIG9iamVjdGl2ZWx5IHVua25vd2FibGUuIFRo ZXJlZm9yZSwgd2UgDQo+IHNpbXBseSBkb24ndCBrbm93IHRoZSBiYWxhbmNlIGJldHdlZW4gZ29v ZCBhbmQgZXZpbCBoZXJlLg0KDQpJIHRoaW5rIG9uZSBvZiB0aGUgY2hhbGxlbmdlcyBoZXJlIGlz IHRoYXQgdGhlcmUgYXJlIG5vIGVhc3kgYW5zd2VycyAtIGlmIHRoZXJlIHdlcmUgdGhlbiB0aGlz IHBhcnRpY3VsYXIgaXNzdWUgd291bGQgbm90IGtlZXAgY29taW5nIHVwLiAgV2UgaGF2ZSBhIGNv bmZsaWN0IGJldHdlZW4gcHJldmVudGluZyBoYXJtIGJ5ICJiYWQgYWN0b3JzIiBvbiB0aGUgb25l IGhhbmQgYW5kIHByb3RlY3RpbmcgcHJpdmFjeSBvbiB0aGUgb3RoZXIuICANCg0KSW4gbXkgdmll dyB0aGlzIGlzIG5vdCBhIHRlY2huaWNhbCBwcm9ibGVtLCBidXQgaXMgaW5zdGVhZCBhIGNhc2Ug b2YgZGV0ZXJtaW5pbmcgd2hpY2ggb2YgdHdvIHNldHMgb2YgY29uZmxpY3RpbmcgcmVxdWlyZW1l bnRzIHNob3VsZCBiZSBwcmlvcml0aXNlZC4gIFJGQyA4ODkwIHN1Z2dlc3RzIHRoYXQsIGluIHN1 Y2ggY2lyY3Vtc3RhbmNlcywgd2Ugc2hvdWxkIHRyeSB0byBtaW5pbWl6ZSBuZWdhdGl2ZSBpbXBh Y3Qgd2hpbHN0IGFsc28gbm90aW5nIHRoYXQgd2hlbiBhIGRlY2lzaW9uIGltcHJvdmVzIHRoZSBJ bnRlcm5ldCBmb3IgZW5kIHVzZXJzIGluIG9uZSBqdXJpc2RpY3Rpb24sIGJ1dCBhdCB0aGUgY29z dCBvZiBwb3RlbnRpYWwgaGFybSB0byBvdGhlcnMgZWxzZXdoZXJlLCB0aGF0IGlzIG5vdCBhIGdv b2QgdHJhZGUtb2ZmLiAgQmFzZWQgb24gdGhlIGFyZ3VtZW50cyBtYWRlIHRoYXQgaW5pdGlhdGVk IHRoaXMgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiwgd2UgY291bGQgY29uY2x1ZGUgdGhhdCB0aGUgYXBwcm9hY2ggdGFr ZW4gYnkgdGhlIElFVEYgdG8gZGF0ZSBhcHBlYXJzIHRvIGhhdmUgaGFybWVkIGF0IGxlYXN0IHNv bWUgdXNlcnMuICANCg0KVGhlIFJGQyBhbHNvIGVuY291cmFnZXMgc3Rha2Vob2xkZXIgZW5nYWdl bWVudC4gIFdlIGhhdmUgYSBjbGVhciBtZXNzYWdlIGhlcmUgZnJvbSBvbmUgZ3JvdXAgb2Ygc3Rh a2Vob2xkZXJzIHRoYXQgaGFybSBpcyBvY2N1cnJpbmcgYW5kIHRoYXQgY2hhbmdlcyBhcmUgbmVl ZGVkLiAgSXQgd291bGQgc2VlbSByZWFzb25hYmxlIHRvIHRha2Ugc3RlcHMgdG8gdW5kZXJzdGFu ZCB0aGVpciBjYXNlIGluIG1vcmUgZGV0YWlsIHJhdGhlciB0aGFuIGp1c3QgZGlzbWlzc2luZyBp dCBhcyB3cm9uZywgdG9vIGRpZmZpY3VsdCwgYmFkbHkgZGVmaW5lZCBvciBpbGwgdGhvdWdodCBv dXQgKHRvIGJlIGNsZWFyLCBJJ20gbm90IHN1Z2dlc3RpbmcgdGhhdCBCcmlhbiBoYXMgaW4gZmFj dCBkb25lIGFueSBvZiB0aG9zZSB0aGluZ3MhKS4gIA0KDQpUaGVyZWZvcmUsIHJhdGhlciB0aGFu IHRyeWluZyB0byBkZWJhdGUgdGhlIHRvcGljIGFuZCBzb2x2ZSBpdCBoZXJlLCBzdXJlbHkgdGhl IG1vc3QgYXBwcm9wcmlhdGUgbmV4dCBzdGVwIHdvdWxkIGJlIHRvIHNlZWsgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiB3 aXRoIHRoZSBhZmZlY3RlZCBzdGFrZWhvbGRlcnMsIGFuZCBwb3NzaWJseSBvdGhlcnMgdG8gZW5z dXJlIGEgYmFsYW5jZWQgdmlldyBoYXMgYmVlbiBnYWluZWQuICANCg0KDQpBbmRyZXcgDQo= From nobody Tue Oct 13 17:12:56 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C74F3A126C for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 17:12:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.65 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.65 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6CXO8Gafh8pc for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 17:12:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6B20C3A0115 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 17:12:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id D35A0548019; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 02:12:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id C483F440059; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 02:12:46 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 02:12:46 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: Andrew Campling Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Stewart Bryant , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20201014001246.GD57007@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <8fa06d77-e73b-aa15-683d-937e8841566f@gmail.com> <975E28FE326C22E8CD32DCC8@PSB> <5021a377-e9ca-1580-c2f0-3351b9f5fe04@huitema.net> <586DC363-B5F8-4727-8734-815F3E17F345@gmail.com> <65CD5A4A-E7AD-4051-90A6-31AD536AB0AD@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 00:12:55 -0000 Andrew, inline On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 08:33:57PM +0000, Andrew Campling wrote: > > I think one of the challenges here is that there are no easy answers - if there were then this particular issue would not keep coming up. We have a conflict between preventing harm by "bad actors" on the one hand and protecting privacy on the other. > > In my view this is not a technical problem, but is instead a case of determining which of two sets of conflicting requirements should be prioritised. This reads to me as you proliferate what i think to be the core fallacy that the IETF: it has allowed rough consensus to be abused to prohibit work that some rough mayority does not like. In many cases because it is against their business interest, and annoyingly enough that real goal is often hidden behind a shield of "its not good for the Internet, its not good for the users". There may only be one solution for the "Internet", but there can easily be many competing and contradicting solutions for different markets. [ insert toerless again comparing TCP/IP solution with an iceberg: 10 % across the waterline is Internet, 90% invisible below the waterline are controlled networks]. TLS 1.3 is the best example. The abuse of IETF principles by its rough mayority was not the rough consensis on rfc8446, but how it was made clear that dissenting profiles, even if mean to be used only for controlled networks would not find a home in the IETF. In result we have stuff like ETSI TS 103 523-3 happening outside the IETF. If such a document would have been done inside the IETF it would have showed much better the will of the IETF to not only serve 10 % of the iceberg but also significant parts of the other 90%. Even more so, the outcome could have been technically better or at least be a lot more elaborating of the risk and possible mitigation strategies of such a "weakened" security solution. > RFC 8890 suggests that, in such circumstances, > we should try to minimize negative impact whilst also noting that when a decision improves the Internet for end users in one jurisdiction, but at the cost of potential harm to others elsewhere, that is not a good trade-off. Based on the arguments made that initiated this discussion, we could conclude that the approach taken by the IETF to date appears to have harmed at least some users. Given how RFC8890 is only scoped for the Internet: What is and what is not allowed/desired on public IP networks will more and more be subject to non-IETF controlled policies. Be those of big OTT App providers with global networks or governments of any kind. The more dogmatic the IETF is about what can and what can not be branded Internet, the more the Internet will be more the Internet will shrink to that subset of operators/regions/countries that agree with those "Internet" policies. I for once am all for keeping the spirit of a clear and strict open policy for "Internet", even at the risk of shrinkage. I would like to avoid the IETF to become less relevant by excluding more and more of the demands of the non-Internet TCP/IP networks from its work scope. Especially when a lot of this non-technology-inclusiveness is not even driven from the Internet values but from business and political interest of groups inside the IETF. Cheers Toerless > The RFC also encourages stakeholder engagement. We have a clear message here from one group of stakeholders that harm is occurring and that changes are needed. It would seem reasonable to take steps to understand their case in more detail rather than just dismissing it as wrong, too difficult, badly defined or ill thought out (to be clear, I'm not suggesting that Brian has in fact done any of those things!). > > Therefore, rather than trying to debate the topic and solve it here, surely the most appropriate next step would be to seek discussion with the affected stakeholders, and possibly others to ensure a balanced view has been gained. > > > Andrew > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Tue Oct 13 17:23:10 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F0B03A127C for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 17:23:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.212 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.212 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q4tXTAscTVVD for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 17:23:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B93403A1277 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 17:23:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6E81BE4C; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 01:23:05 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dPB8pHG-l4iA; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 01:23:04 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0A0E5BE2F; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 01:23:04 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1602634984; bh=+UbCF2y/yIvqRqGbKHPC+Y0Qry4s8w4kqqklF7nQ21Y=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=uw+vihvrRhZ0Mzui/4E0wT2a+NIxLMY0aJMcKvf90M2YbtFC+oOu1Qds6ytqjx/zv uI6ji6H4nrtOlAolh/+JSjUgVNTxZgk0QEQt1nRQE1qaQBPUhL5XpWDjUJcZ2foAux 2hi7BjUPY9mwaObt7k/juCA1fGsHmDEH+xkcp7vk= To: Toerless Eckert Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" References: <8fa06d77-e73b-aa15-683d-937e8841566f@gmail.com> <975E28FE326C22E8CD32DCC8@PSB> <5021a377-e9ca-1580-c2f0-3351b9f5fe04@huitema.net> <586DC363-B5F8-4727-8734-815F3E17F345@gmail.com> <65CD5A4A-E7AD-4051-90A6-31AD536AB0AD@gmail.com> <20201014001246.GD57007@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABtDJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPokCQAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxLkCDQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: <623a0c86-ca51-d07b-34b1-ddec84ac9207@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 01:23:03 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20201014001246.GD57007@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="w2XVBh5byAlqulJHvjZydizRIxTL3Es8t" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 00:23:10 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --w2XVBh5byAlqulJHvjZydizRIxTL3Es8t Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="BgHmtXo9Wla0c5s8bfROlsfR8Om9rxtNM"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Toerless Eckert Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Message-ID: <623a0c86-ca51-d07b-34b1-ddec84ac9207@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? References: <8fa06d77-e73b-aa15-683d-937e8841566f@gmail.com> <975E28FE326C22E8CD32DCC8@PSB> <5021a377-e9ca-1580-c2f0-3351b9f5fe04@huitema.net> <586DC363-B5F8-4727-8734-815F3E17F345@gmail.com> <65CD5A4A-E7AD-4051-90A6-31AD536AB0AD@gmail.com> <20201014001246.GD57007@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> In-Reply-To: <20201014001246.GD57007@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> --BgHmtXo9Wla0c5s8bfROlsfR8Om9rxtNM Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------3147D736AACE241D166D4DC3" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3147D736AACE241D166D4DC3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 14/10/2020 01:12, Toerless Eckert wrote: > TLS 1.3 is the best example. The abuse of IETF principles by its > rough mayority was not the rough consensis on rfc8446, but how it was > made clear that dissenting profiles, even if mean to be used only for > controlled networks would not find a home in the IETF. If I understand your grammar correctly, I consider that counterfactual nonsense. TLS1.3 was quite a good example of running the process and even of extending the set of people participating to bring in lots of new and real expertise. 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([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s3m8S63WamU9 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 17:25:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx36-out10.antispamcloud.com (mx36-out10.antispamcloud.com [209.126.121.30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9B9473A1285 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 17:25:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xse246.mail2web.com ([66.113.196.246] helo=xse.mail2web.com) by mx36.antispamcloud.com with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kSUbb-0002z3-H6 for architecture-discuss@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 02:25:27 +0200 Received: from xsmtp21.mail2web.com (unknown [10.100.68.60]) by xse.mail2web.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C9tV95bZTzPRB for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 17:25:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.5.2.15] (helo=xmail05.myhosting.com) by xsmtp21.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kSUbZ-0004nE-Ll for architecture-discuss@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 17:25:21 -0700 Received: (qmail 25818 invoked from network); 14 Oct 2020 00:25:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.107]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.58.43.139]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail05.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 14 Oct 2020 00:25:21 -0000 To: Andrew Campling , Brian E Carpenter , Stewart Bryant Cc: Stephen Farrell , John C Klensin , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" References: <8fa06d77-e73b-aa15-683d-937e8841566f@gmail.com> <975E28FE326C22E8CD32DCC8@PSB> <5021a377-e9ca-1580-c2f0-3351b9f5fe04@huitema.net> <586DC363-B5F8-4727-8734-815F3E17F345@gmail.com> <65CD5A4A-E7AD-4051-90A6-31AD536AB0AD@gmail.com> From: Christian Huitema Autocrypt: addr=huitema@huitema.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mDMEXtavGxYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdA1ou9A5MHTP9N3jfsWzlDZ+jPnQkusmc7sfLmWVz1Rmu0 J0NocmlzdGlhbiBIdWl0ZW1hIDxodWl0ZW1hQGh1aXRlbWEubmV0PoiWBBMWCAA+FiEEw3G4 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X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Mvzo4OR0dZXEDF/gcnlw0Z1apovzGPsYhEeBL1aoZmqpSDasLI4SayDByyq9LIhVUZbR67CQ7/vm /hHDJU4RXkTNWdUk1Ol2OGx3IfrIJKywOmJyM1qr8uRnWBrbSAGDsYLBcJLyHnVrULITPs15U6ts NHuRxlWqWR9fNqLY1ai4Dcwf+CZK8NXgy3In+fX7CyL6qdCXAeX/P8N26/0CFFO05s+oip5EC/YK rMQ9+O9t+TYaqvvx766D6vBkj4PuyiYsf0dqm7XR9mX5TIzYH19l1/WyLBg0mKuTgAEprJGOo0r3 6TvtZGZKJo7Ywel+UOUPX0VHiKUyAtskn6r56i8KMZYGrZmgW9KwYivcW5A61Ks3CiInn/dDFS2W PS2yGYffiENaEvSwZ91SD/eSc+7o0ZSfcEjJYb2rnSV2fRCARv6mkfvK/UihTJjyS3/OdDr2WLJq FULjiIcCiyuiCgTQeC2dL1Bxyk8yV+29SYS0kEOL0o9EBIpturfzKMtFD1+RO9x9UH6x/+ZJK1fw q9G5tr1naPLrD+uYvNqtQnWYBq6S+OMHcfXl6o0I271KKTjECb0PwpN4olPuA0AI937kIM09yvSV B0zYhsH8AJscf1pPDHIpzyRJIAFazjKWLeKNwoKiavuxix9yw3Agl1DU8fD/ALCVKek/dBPYt+RE kWUzXCoRRUxS1JZxFsmxDOzmBV2HQt7Uatu+Zv1N1TpCidat2mTUv88BxRciEve3Qqd2XfXJT/ME oiWVmyQo/sUa41ZkcaRrUnL1JoI9S/bObKe1HX+JQVS7i8q7LhBdo2QDmp0gac+kY2trv9IywhvK JsjhwOCnivLYOzVI2BW9wnerY5cnqnsxy9690Wb8rLWurtYhxMrkuxg9br3KrHa8VCcAQldJ7E/K hE/y+STmCCXeDL0NDX+BHG7xztXYg2px1fSoqxQCCHnLMo/mDU6PNRkfow1xbM/2UJ2204s78JWb K25bRomaFIfnPuaRVYKU9W9tbmVXJBqdHHDmtl4ZBm5rFDTzZHq3tVoXjbFV5oTvAcwA4rM3FkfW 8/0g7RdPSaUm7rgnoiAytAv9 X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine11.antispamcloud.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 00:25:30 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4D91CB7A41F8673F911461E1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/13/2020 1:33 PM, Andrew Campling wrote: > On 13-Oct-20 20:54, Brian E Carpenter wrote:=20 > >> We all agree, I think, that many bad things have been done using the I= nternet. How=20 >> many of those were done using cryptography, and how many bad things ha= ve been=20 >> *prevented* by cryptography are both objectively unknowable. Therefore= , we=20 >> simply don't know the balance between good and evil here. > I think one of the challenges here is that there are no easy answers - = if there were then this particular issue would not keep coming up. We ha= ve a conflict between preventing harm by "bad actors" on the one hand and= protecting privacy on the other.=20 First, let's agree with Brian that the IETF is best at solving technical problems. The kind of balance that we describe here is a political and possibly cultural issue. It has been solved in the past in adjacent domains, for example with habeas corpus, innocent until proven guilty, or the prohibition of torture. These are widely agreed principles in democratic societies -- but not necessarily in all societies. And these principle do recognize a balance between good and evil. Stating for example that society would rather have a culprit walking free than an innocent in jail is an explicit choice. I wish society would be able to make similar choices regarding the privacy of communications, but this is definitely not a technical issue. -- Christian Huitema > =20 --------------4D91CB7A41F8673F911461E1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

On 10/13/2020 1:33 PM, Andrew Campling wrote:

On 13-Oct-20 20:54, Brian E Carpenter wrote: 


We all agree, I think, that many bad things have been done using the Internet. How 
many of those were done using cryptography, and how many bad things have been 
*prevented* by cryptography are both objectively unknowable. Therefore, we 
simply don't know the balance between good and evil here.

I think one of the challenges here is that there are no easy answers - if there were then this particular issue would not keep coming up.  We have a conflict between preventing harm by "bad actors" on the one hand and protecting privacy on the other.


First, let's agree with Brian that the IETF is best at solving technical problems. The kind of balance that we describe here is a political and possibly cultural issue. It has been solved in the past in adjacent domains, for example with habeas corpus, innocent until proven guilty, or the prohibition of torture. These are widely agreed principles in democratic societies -- but not necessarily in all societies. And these principle do recognize a balance between good and evil. Stating for example that society would rather have a culprit walking free than an innocent in jail is an explicit choice. I wish society would be able to make similar choices regarding the privacy of communications, but this is definitely not a technical issue.

-- Christian Huitema
--------------4D91CB7A41F8673F911461E1-- From nobody Tue Oct 13 17:51:46 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB2CF3A12A8 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 17:51:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.87 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.87 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hqDM9aHf0tSX for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 17:51:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 84C513A12A7 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 17:51:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id E07AF548019; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 02:51:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id DA425440059; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 02:51:37 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 02:51:37 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: Stephen Farrell Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20201014005137.GE57007@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <5021a377-e9ca-1580-c2f0-3351b9f5fe04@huitema.net> <586DC363-B5F8-4727-8734-815F3E17F345@gmail.com> <65CD5A4A-E7AD-4051-90A6-31AD536AB0AD@gmail.com> <20201014001246.GD57007@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <623a0c86-ca51-d07b-34b1-ddec84ac9207@cs.tcd.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <623a0c86-ca51-d07b-34b1-ddec84ac9207@cs.tcd.ie> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 00:51:46 -0000 On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 01:23:03AM +0100, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > > On 14/10/2020 01:12, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > TLS 1.3 is the best example. The abuse of IETF principles by its > > rough mayority was not the rough consensis on rfc8446, but how it was > > made clear that dissenting profiles, even if mean to be used only for > > controlled networks would not find a home in the IETF. > > If I understand your grammar correctly, I consider that > counterfactual nonsense. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Offensive, dismissive judgements are not a technical argument. > TLS1.3 was quite a good example > of running the process and even of extending the set of > people participating to bring in lots of new and real > expertise. Thanks for rephrasing the first part of what i said. My criticism was about the additional TLS profile RFC(s) that did not happen in the IETF due to very clear resistance to them even though there was a big enough community supporting them. Aka: The TLS RFC NOT for the Internet but for controlled networks with specific three party trust. Cheers Toerless > S. pub RSA 4096/7B172BEA 2017-12-22 Stephen Farrell (2017) > sub RSA 4096/36CB8BB6 2017-12-22 > -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Tue Oct 13 18:13:03 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80E323A12C2 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 18:13:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.212 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.212 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y-CApItS_xXJ for ; 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h=To:Cc:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=JNrWz/30iuBppaAMNPSZqDcQMuLxrI43WzteK3N7H3jdx6ErtySVtGXDrBOz9UW6t txvn/3Oxi/wR3MxwhhCUdC1UjR9PudaBRsK+Ffrt79i3LQSROpFzf9BkQK8f6V97zd k+NK6UTEU4V+kN2rBSaZc9gxXjzYOvcB4kmtPKBg= To: Toerless Eckert Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" References: <5021a377-e9ca-1580-c2f0-3351b9f5fe04@huitema.net> <586DC363-B5F8-4727-8734-815F3E17F345@gmail.com> <65CD5A4A-E7AD-4051-90A6-31AD536AB0AD@gmail.com> <20201014001246.GD57007@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <623a0c86-ca51-d07b-34b1-ddec84ac9207@cs.tcd.ie> <20201014005137.GE57007@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABtDJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPokCQAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxLkCDQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: <2856893d-f8b0-8259-5316-2f6c0415fb72@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 02:12:50 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20201014005137.GE57007@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="6wt3GhXIlIitW632kTwPzxQMuAg5i8Cgg" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 01:13:02 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --6wt3GhXIlIitW632kTwPzxQMuAg5i8Cgg Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="gvqeAOQAaf4wtlzh8HEuvwAHYpJIYuX3r"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Toerless Eckert Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Message-ID: <2856893d-f8b0-8259-5316-2f6c0415fb72@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? References: <5021a377-e9ca-1580-c2f0-3351b9f5fe04@huitema.net> <586DC363-B5F8-4727-8734-815F3E17F345@gmail.com> <65CD5A4A-E7AD-4051-90A6-31AD536AB0AD@gmail.com> <20201014001246.GD57007@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <623a0c86-ca51-d07b-34b1-ddec84ac9207@cs.tcd.ie> <20201014005137.GE57007@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> In-Reply-To: <20201014005137.GE57007@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> --gvqeAOQAaf4wtlzh8HEuvwAHYpJIYuX3r Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------7743B3615CDBE9F802C73693" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------7743B3615CDBE9F802C73693 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 14/10/2020 01:51, Toerless Eckert wrote: > On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 01:23:03AM +0100, Stephen Farrell wrote: >> >> >> On 14/10/2020 01:12, Toerless Eckert wrote: >>> TLS 1.3 is the best example. The abuse of IETF principles by its >>> rough mayority was not the rough consensis on rfc8446, but how it was= >>> made clear that dissenting profiles, even if mean to be used only for= >>> controlled networks would not find a home in the IETF. >> >> If I understand your grammar correctly, I consider that >> counterfactual nonsense. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >=20 > Offensive, dismissive judgements are not a technical argument. Asserting that something is counterfactual should not be offensive. Well perhaps it might to someone who found some facts offensive, I'm not sure;-) Nonsensical statements are the opposite of sensible ones, and are common on IETF lists. I'm quite surprised any of that is surprising to anyone that posts often. All that said, I do think a bit of dismissal is warranted though - the TLS WG wasted a year and a bit on that stuff for no good reason, so yes I do think those who claim those nonsense arguments don't deserve to be dismissed are wrong. (Surely we're ok to dismiss zombie arguments like these, if for no other reason than efficiency in the face of an utter lack of new [or actually also of old!] facts?) >=20 >> TLS1.3 was quite a good example >> of running the process and even of extending the set of >> people participating to bring in lots of new and real >> expertise. >=20 > Thanks for rephrasing the first part of what i said. My criticism was > about the additional TLS profile RFC(s) that did not happen in the IETF= due > to very clear resistance to them even though there was a big enough > community supporting them.=20 Again, that's counterfactual. The proponents of breaking TLS1.3 in that way, (draft-green et. al.) had many many opportunities to make their (weak) case. They did that, some very badly, some less so. And they failed to be convincing. Then some of them went to a captive group in ETSI and got a rubber stamp for their (IMO terrible) idea. For me, that says more about a lack of quality control in ETSI than anything else. I hope TLS and web implementers continue to entirely ignore the output of that supposed piece of "work." > Aka: The TLS RFC NOT for the Internet but > for controlled networks with specific three party trust. That discussion was had. TLS is a two party protocol. You may wish the outcome had been otherwise but it was not. S. >=20 > Cheers > Toerless >=20 >> S. >=20 > pub RSA 4096/7B172BEA 2017-12-22 Stephen Farrell (2017) >> sub RSA 4096/36CB8BB6 2017-12-22 >> >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 --------------7743B3615CDBE9F802C73693 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 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HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v9gXj7isNrdJ for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 18:34:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E55E3A12DA for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 18:34:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AD65548019; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 03:34:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 8E294440059; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 03:34:32 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 03:34:32 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: Stephen Farrell Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20201014013432.GF57007@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <586DC363-B5F8-4727-8734-815F3E17F345@gmail.com> <65CD5A4A-E7AD-4051-90A6-31AD536AB0AD@gmail.com> <20201014001246.GD57007@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <623a0c86-ca51-d07b-34b1-ddec84ac9207@cs.tcd.ie> <20201014005137.GE57007@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <2856893d-f8b0-8259-5316-2f6c0415fb72@cs.tcd.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2856893d-f8b0-8259-5316-2f6c0415fb72@cs.tcd.ie> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 01:34:41 -0000 Stephen, You are making all my argument better than i can. I can only predict that if your line of thinking and talking persists in I* leadership then IETF will continue to loose relevance for the industry at large. Too bad. Cheers Toerless On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 02:12:50AM +0100, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > > On 14/10/2020 01:51, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 01:23:03AM +0100, Stephen Farrell wrote: > >> > >> > >> On 14/10/2020 01:12, Toerless Eckert wrote: > >>> TLS 1.3 is the best example. The abuse of IETF principles by its > >>> rough mayority was not the rough consensis on rfc8446, but how it was > >>> made clear that dissenting profiles, even if mean to be used only for > >>> controlled networks would not find a home in the IETF. > >> > >> If I understand your grammar correctly, I consider that > >> counterfactual nonsense. > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > > Offensive, dismissive judgements are not a technical argument. > > Asserting that something is counterfactual should not be > offensive. Well perhaps it might to someone who found some > facts offensive, I'm not sure;-) Nonsensical statements are > the opposite of sensible ones, and are common on IETF > lists. I'm quite surprised any of that is surprising to > anyone that posts often. > > All that said, I do think a bit of dismissal is warranted > though - the TLS WG wasted a year and a bit on that stuff > for no good reason, so yes I do think those who claim those > nonsense arguments don't deserve to be dismissed are wrong. > (Surely we're ok to dismiss zombie arguments like these, > if for no other reason than efficiency in the face of an > utter lack of new [or actually also of old!] facts?) > > > > >> TLS1.3 was quite a good example > >> of running the process and even of extending the set of > >> people participating to bring in lots of new and real > >> expertise. > > > > Thanks for rephrasing the first part of what i said. My criticism was > > about the additional TLS profile RFC(s) that did not happen in the IETF due > > to very clear resistance to them even though there was a big enough > > community supporting them. > > Again, that's counterfactual. The proponents of breaking > TLS1.3 in that way, (draft-green et. al.) had many many > opportunities to make their (weak) case. They did that, > some very badly, some less so. And they failed to be > convincing. > > Then some of them went to a captive group in ETSI and got a > rubber stamp for their (IMO terrible) idea. For me, that > says more about a lack of quality control in ETSI than > anything else. I hope TLS and web implementers continue to > entirely ignore the output of that supposed piece of > "work." > > > Aka: The TLS RFC NOT for the Internet but > > for controlled networks with specific three party trust. > > That discussion was had. TLS is a two party protocol. You > may wish the outcome had been otherwise but it was not. > > S. > > > > > Cheers > > Toerless > > > >> S. > > > > pub RSA 4096/7B172BEA 2017-12-22 Stephen Farrell (2017) > >> sub RSA 4096/36CB8BB6 2017-12-22 > >> > > > > > > > > pub RSA 4096/7B172BEA 2017-12-22 Stephen Farrell (2017) > sub RSA 4096/36CB8BB6 2017-12-22 > -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Tue Oct 13 18:49:44 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D889D3A12E8 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 18:49:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.212 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.212 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SD6zyUnU7iVS for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 18:49:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BF6DE3A12E6 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 18:49:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id C52E9BE24; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 02:49:32 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id evzusHfCo8pi; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 02:49:31 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E20AABE20; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 02:49:30 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1602640171; bh=TxYw7WYOuyhilS5YTefdvKU4YhLUmhsujrMut50Rk78=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=jroHpTIlzAOJlkexEh8zfWKvDFDuq5J3eHOqhtc5gWyk9CI/kkgQjmnwSrr2qcBOy zbn2rpxy98/uEn+avLBpx2tykajxjJ77ObtJNpzcOpVojOj87bBheyJgWkSB2DnPqn XNG87Tn3doRYHnMOAWqZcJxyLAYK/+YkBKE2M8g0= To: Toerless Eckert Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" References: <586DC363-B5F8-4727-8734-815F3E17F345@gmail.com> <65CD5A4A-E7AD-4051-90A6-31AD536AB0AD@gmail.com> <20201014001246.GD57007@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <623a0c86-ca51-d07b-34b1-ddec84ac9207@cs.tcd.ie> <20201014005137.GE57007@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <2856893d-f8b0-8259-5316-2f6c0415fb72@cs.tcd.ie> <20201014013432.GF57007@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABtDJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPokCQAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxLkCDQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 02:49:30 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20201014013432.GF57007@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="XbIdzZMiX2wrLaLiVMenV7Gjo6k8bPvD8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 01:49:43 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --XbIdzZMiX2wrLaLiVMenV7Gjo6k8bPvD8 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="UEVunPpZNc3q9bnzmOV3mvSeV9sZIc3wc"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Toerless Eckert Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Message-ID: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? References: <586DC363-B5F8-4727-8734-815F3E17F345@gmail.com> <65CD5A4A-E7AD-4051-90A6-31AD536AB0AD@gmail.com> <20201014001246.GD57007@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <623a0c86-ca51-d07b-34b1-ddec84ac9207@cs.tcd.ie> <20201014005137.GE57007@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <2856893d-f8b0-8259-5316-2f6c0415fb72@cs.tcd.ie> <20201014013432.GF57007@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> In-Reply-To: <20201014013432.GF57007@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> --UEVunPpZNc3q9bnzmOV3mvSeV9sZIc3wc Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------EA466CADF5FC30B0D6AC457B" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------EA466CADF5FC30B0D6AC457B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 14/10/2020 02:34, Toerless Eckert wrote: > Stephen, >=20 > You are making all my argument better than i can. We seem to agree about that:-) You are as entirely welcome to misinterpret what I'm saying as ETSI are to call their weirdo horror-movie thing TLS:-) S. --------------EA466CADF5FC30B0D6AC457B Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 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Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 04:20:30 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: Stephen Farrell Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20201014022030.GJ57007@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <65CD5A4A-E7AD-4051-90A6-31AD536AB0AD@gmail.com> <20201014001246.GD57007@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <623a0c86-ca51-d07b-34b1-ddec84ac9207@cs.tcd.ie> <20201014005137.GE57007@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <2856893d-f8b0-8259-5316-2f6c0415fb72@cs.tcd.ie> <20201014013432.GF57007@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 02:20:38 -0000 On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 02:49:30AM +0100, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > > On 14/10/2020 02:34, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > Stephen, > > > > You are making all my argument better than i can. > > We seem to agree about that:-) > > You are as entirely welcome to misinterpret what I'm saying I don't. You made yourself very clear. > as ETSI are to call their weirdo horror-movie thing TLS:-) You missed your window of opportunity for dismissive name calling to have a lasting effect. If this work was done in the IETF it could easily have been distinguished better against TLS, including in name. Cheers Toerless > S. pub RSA 4096/7B172BEA 2017-12-22 Stephen Farrell (2017) > sub RSA 4096/36CB8BB6 2017-12-22 > -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Wed Oct 14 00:43:03 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A4633A13E8 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 00:43:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s0dxvAnMfGvs for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 00:43:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x429.google.com (mail-wr1-x429.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::429]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AFD863A13E4 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 00:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x429.google.com with SMTP id g12so2509479wrp.10 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 00:43:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=pzVPMQTOGHMyx8SbVCVfnDB7oCVskO2OePXnbWtq1LU=; b=HhDU7UFWyizs9kqSaK2O91ZXbAPaD4aADHZs+88wipmQyNmYHRSql8TGqKAZGO9a7r FKks5pV4Y+2qPbQ3dtoDb7AIJpl90YGjXLeqkJ2uydKjzg7B1gDh10aibhc1FhhrB/w9 HaEFvd7v1vR+Kkb6kk65I1WuQO+WyEZw1a3mz6dPG+NrRRL9Ooveq3wcoqCVLrAx6G9b 33BFe082MQrHPYNvWM/uFYDdoVpLystQKBLqSXwpDQBvQB1AgioIFdRkB/Zb982j7BL7 D/uliH7848bBlqQOfGCZAOSxwP09IcRGIOuCP5a7MnEXnRTuoH1tZUjob3WyM7XhYAuX K5wg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=pzVPMQTOGHMyx8SbVCVfnDB7oCVskO2OePXnbWtq1LU=; b=fDvp0DwU8dBT77q+J/pae+G+Bm9deMkjrwPEs4iIm0sVqHBCQRMVQ72pEJhaApzeKj dQaJlJdCYC/vJNRRsnDOtcigwCVwcrJNhNR1tUwCI+EZtpEZ/KA39GwrkcAmOPtKGkA7 rOwKMFhhdlcsdYHdAtVWKoieXMWBdYNA6+Viuc+zccf/E/xXXB8Ta/VH2Blb54CjpcMQ xmr96zf1TOn9bqF1YGGlQwlmzMGQSw8r/7SIJq3w/r67laE6KtDeWv7KtUJf9Ejz3zUm leySvMGIsxZq/SSRZ2W1ocGciEgKUAOZ2Umfo0497V588Ozrsof5zwmO2o6nSB/vOJHK jUHA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531n2FFv91nT/VKF/AT76/wmGtkzHAB8EmJFK6vZyfLKEWbbHtph a69XQtfp5F/75qm9a8e3UA0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwxndE2SWXOgPfK0LNnr9kfcJS1Laz+T8dkJhP45eLJBfp1+U3xwNBqaq7ghSUD3Tsflk6LCg== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:4fcc:: with SMTP id h12mr4135984wrw.132.1602661378974; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 00:42:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from broadband.bt.com ([2a00:23c5:3395:c901:5d29:86d5:3f0b:55d5]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 40sm3466792wrc.46.2020.10.14.00.42.57 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 14 Oct 2020 00:42:57 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Stewart Bryant In-Reply-To: <1AAC6944E2F493C97D78DD3B@PSB> Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 08:42:56 +0100 Cc: Stewart Bryant , Stephen Farrell , Andrew Campling , Christian Huitema , Brian E Carpenter , architecture-discuss@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0A818075-52FA-47C5-9087-6EB5665D4C51@gmail.com> References: <8fa06d77-e73b-aa15-683d-937e8841566f@gmail.com> <975E28FE326C22E8CD32DCC8@PSB> <5021a377-e9ca-1580-c2f0-3351b9f5fe04@huitema.net> <586DC363-B5F8-4727-8734-815F3E17F345@gmail.com> <65CD5A4A-E7AD-4051-90A6-31AD536AB0AD@gmail.com> <1AAC6944E2F493C97D78DD3B@PSB> To: John C Klensin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 07:43:02 -0000 John and I are largely aligned, although I do wonder if it is = technically possible to provide a method of providing access to clear = text in such a way that it was safe from anything other than through the = cooperation of multiple independent trusted bodies operating within an = agreed international legal framework. Stewart > On 13 Oct 2020, at 19:00, John C Klensin wrote: >=20 > --On Tuesday, October 13, 2020 14:34 +0100 Stewart Bryant > wrote: >=20 >>> On 13 Oct 2020, at 14:17, Stephen Farrell >>> wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hiya, >>>=20 >>> On 13/10/2020 13:48, Stewart Bryant wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Stephen, >>>>=20 >>>> Those governments are looking for ways to stop real harm to >>>> real people. >>>=20 >>> Some are, yes. That is not all they are interested in doing >>> of course (they all do like a bit of spying here and there:-) >>> and all that varies enormously from one to another government. >>> Some governments want these changes in order to do what I >>> would call harm. >>=20 >> Engineering calls for a pragmatic balance of results and costs. >>=20 >> =46rom where I sit, I see a significant downside in allowing bad >> people to do bad things to innocent people. >=20 >>>> We have to accept that we have unintentionally played a part >>>> in causing some of that harm. >>>=20 >>> And a lot of good. IMO, on balance, and after having done >>> this stuff for >3 decades, I'm happy that we've done overall >>> far more good (with crypto in protocols) than harm. (That >>> doesn't include surveillance capitalism, but that isn't the >>> same issue.) >=20 > But unless we can figure out a way to make that distinction a > lot more clear to those who do not share the same technical, > economic, and political views, it is not clear that there is a > difference between "surveillance capitalism" and assorted things > you consider "overall good". Not disagreeing, just pointing > out that such distinctions are not universally accepted, that > one can favor availability of crypto in protocols and still want > restrictions and access in some cases. >=20 > I can't tell if Stewart and I are in agreement or not, but all > I'm suggesting is that we need to see many of these things as > relatively complex systems that involve the policy-makers > (however clueless, friendly, or hostile one might consider them) > as well as the technology. That means doing a better job of > looking at possible tradeoffs and then being explicit about what > they are and what choices we are making and why. If there are > different types of attackers and we can optimize for resisting > one type and not the other, then we need to get that out in the > open and be explicit about the decisions or compromises we are > making and why. If both "more concentration" and "having things > more widely distributed" have things going for them, then we > need to look at how to balance the two, not just denounce one or > the other and pretend there are no side effects. =20 >=20 > As an important example, while the message has been clear from > crypto experts that there is no way to build back doors into > systems and avoid having those back doors create > vulnerabilities, "we" may need to think more carefully about > alternatives (technical or otherwise) to explain to regulators > and legislators. If they decide that something must be done and > we convince them that, e.g., law enforcement access to encrypted > streams is impossible without creating larger problems, they > will (and have in the past) consider banning crypto entirely > (something we all agree would be a bad outcome). So, when I > first read the subject line and first part of Brian's note, I > interpreted "revisit" as "maybe it is time to move away from the > absolutes of "doing that is bad and won't work" or "that is an > evil and will hurt the Internet" and to start looking more at > why others might think that a particular approach might be worth > it despite the disadvantages, We should, IMO, be willing to > look at those issues to see if we can find alternatives or > middle grounds. >=20 >> ... >=20 > john >=20 >=20 From nobody Wed Oct 14 02:11:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B17B03A1422 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 02:10:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07EcRbZOMpkd for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 02:10:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-4.cisco.com (aer-iport-4.cisco.com [173.38.203.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3DE9A3A1419 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 02:10:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=14025; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1602666657; x=1603876257; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc: to:references; bh=enP42I6sLodqU7SlGByV5f9F3CYIqIPeq0SjeTvursI=; b=ABUDDmdMaF7DoDRMmKW2TJC7Qf/2sksPSagiaj73HDc+7eObHOLh9KsC uEtSDSDxm//o9AMxcmcE51hTo/9+klmKryn7j+puJB3jt1Cf3uWqpYS7C FtYmJFZ4kj6Sfv6R19CWwnGTW1/ubmvCehxi0ez3uXWip/9WI+nCTaoHT w=; X-Files: signature.asc : 488 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AeBAACwIZf/xbLJq1gHQEBAQEJARI?= =?us-ascii?q?BBQUBgg+BI4F3VQEgEiyEPYkCiBeHZowmiBoEBwEBAQoDAQElCgQBAYRKAoI?= =?us-ascii?q?DJjgTAgMBAQsBAQUBAQECAQYEbYVcDIVyAQEBAQIBI1YFCwsYKgICVwYTFIJ?= =?us-ascii?q?wASEBglwgD6dsdoEyhDsBgRiEcAoGgTiBU4oggV6CAIE4HIIfLj6BBIFYAYE?= =?us-ascii?q?3g0Azgi0Ekw6JBptWgnSDFYE3hDeGXIsOAx+SNo8MK51vkViDYAIEBgUCFYF?= =?us-ascii?q?rI4FXMxoIGxVlAYI+PhIZDY43iG2FRD8DMDgCBgEJAQEDCYwCgkYBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.77,374,1596499200"; d="asc'?scan'208,217";a="30283272" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-2.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 14 Oct 2020 09:10:53 +0000 Received: from [10.61.175.164] ([10.61.175.164]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 09E9Aq1h003179 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 14 Oct 2020 09:10:52 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: <22B6BB6E-751F-4B27-9FF5-C47DFED4CDDA@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_4FA73EDC-D43F-4DED-9C7E-42588FD08C47"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 11:10:51 +0200 In-Reply-To: Cc: Stewart Bryant , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" To: Stephen Farrell References: <8fa06d77-e73b-aa15-683d-937e8841566f@gmail.com> <975E28FE326C22E8CD32DCC8@PSB> <5021a377-e9ca-1580-c2f0-3351b9f5fe04@huitema.net> <586DC363-B5F8-4727-8734-815F3E17F345@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.175.164, [10.61.175.164] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-2.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 09:11:00 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_4FA73EDC-D43F-4DED-9C7E-42588FD08C47 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_3F688CBA-8855-4173-9C8C-5CEE5011407B" --Apple-Mail=_3F688CBA-8855-4173-9C8C-5CEE5011407B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Stephen > On 13 Oct 2020, at 15:17, Stephen Farrell = wrote: >=20 >>=20 >> So the problem that we have a moral responsibility to address is to >> find methods that stop or minimise those harms. >=20 > I don't accept that. The "we" isn't clear, but what > does seem clear is that meeting the requirements posed > is (IMO anyway) likely to do more harm. I've never > seen any proponent of borked crypto do a proper analysis > of the damage that would be done - they almost always > seem to approach it as mostly a PR exercise and so go > straight to the "think of the children" and "what about > the terrorists" talking points. There are (at least) two threads going on here. The first is what the = social responsibility of the IETF community actually is. The nature of = our work has always been dual use. Crypto is the classic example of = that. We have to accept that. But in so doing, do we also have a = responsibility to ameliorate risks or even articulate them? That=E2=80=99= s not to say that crypto is bad- it is a foundational technology without = which the Internet could not have grown to its current size of O(10^10) = devices and over 4 billion users. I do think it=E2=80=99s reasonable to = evaluate the societal impact of our work. The hrpc was sort of a nudge = in that direction, but very small one. The second is the risks of having these conversations in the abstract. = That generates more heat than light. When we talking about =E2=80=9Cborke= d crypto=E2=80=9D, what do we mean? Do we mean algorithms that are = weak? Do we mean key sharing and escrow schemes? Do we mean something = else? I like the approach that the Carnegie Endowment committee led by = Steve Bellovin and Susan Landau took in dissecting this problem, in = order to find starting points and common ground with law = enforcement.[1]. But even that presents challenges. It assumes that = there are, as you more than allude, a limited number of well-governed = actors in the conversation. I=E2=80=99m not taking a position on updating any documents, but I do = think it=E2=80=99s good for us to ponder these questions as we consider = new mechanisms. Eliot [1] = https://carnegieendowment.org/2019/09/10/moving-encryption-policy-conversa= tion-forward-pub-79573 --Apple-Mail=_3F688CBA-8855-4173-9C8C-5CEE5011407B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Stephen

On 13 Oct 2020, at 15:17, Stephen Farrell = <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:


So the problem that we have a moral = responsibility to address is to
find methods that stop or = minimise those harms.

I don't accept that. The "we" isn't clear, but what
does seem clear is that meeting = the requirements posed
is (IMO anyway) likely to do more harm. I've never
seen any proponent of borked = crypto do a proper analysis
of the damage that would be done - they almost = always
seem to = approach it as mostly a PR exercise and so go
straight to the "think of the = children" and "what about
the terrorists" talking points.


There = are (at least) two threads going on here.  The first is what the = social responsibility of the IETF community actually is.  The = nature of our work has always been dual use.  Crypto is the classic = example of that.  We have to accept that.  But in so doing, do = we also have a responsibility to ameliorate risks or even articulate = them?  That=E2=80=99s not to say that crypto is bad- it is a = foundational technology without which the Internet could not have grown = to its current size of O(10^10) devices and over 4 billion users. =  I do think it=E2=80=99s reasonable to evaluate the societal impact = of our work.  The hrpc was sort of a nudge in that direction, but = very small one.

The second is the risks of having these conversations in the = abstract.  That generates more heat than light.  When we = talking about =E2=80=9Cborked crypto=E2=80=9D, what do we mean?  Do = we mean algorithms that are weak?  Do we mean key sharing and = escrow schemes?  Do we mean something else? I like the approach = that the Carnegie Endowment committee led by Steve Bellovin and Susan = Landau took in dissecting this problem, in order to find starting points = and common ground with law enforcement.[1]. But even that presents = challenges.  It assumes that there are, as you more than allude, a = limited number of well-governed actors in the conversation.

I=E2=80=99m not taking a = position on updating any documents, but I do think it=E2=80=99s good for = us to ponder these questions as we consider new mechanisms.

Eliot

[1] https://carnegieendowment.org/2019/09/10/moving-encryption-poli= cy-conversation-forward-pub-79573



= --Apple-Mail=_3F688CBA-8855-4173-9C8C-5CEE5011407B-- --Apple-Mail=_4FA73EDC-D43F-4DED-9C7E-42588FD08C47 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAl+GwJsACgkQh7ZrRtnS ejOoTAf/ZoDsnVHAaNjfkbjmB00dQusonah9LlTgpnTcJlzri/0cED2Ch1Li13jm u2rJL9mDqkqkQWCvQJfYh2aExFCbWLwV3IFxA7S3jumr5Q+W/K/Gae+msMbNORQE aeKhdMmjF0x46FERekfKgmZNbVrqTofYXP0oLHNm7/DVd3V3DapOblCHfe5u7gv1 x7zE1mGCK4+qSPfyW2pJgYkS26kU8SoQ9ZkMm63Flo9qFgYWDszBIwdWVTKw8fd0 uHzbBJmBtrxS7/cpjeyiUj10PlO4nos++AYgRgt0o+Ojb3rF9n15aVtZN57J73d0 5UdOW6n/y6rhdLwf1YQZct3atNoSxw== =yIKk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_4FA73EDC-D43F-4DED-9C7E-42588FD08C47-- From nobody Wed Oct 14 02:54:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A10BF3A1438 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 02:54:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RLLO866HwMqt for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 02:54:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x433.google.com (mail-wr1-x433.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::433]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 710083A143A for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 02:54:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x433.google.com with SMTP id n15so3049174wrq.2 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 02:54:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=iHclTP0ikl6Cwz4ITJDDn2F9Ml1yvYukobGdbbkPx/4=; b=DrvjpWScoGzoMdiAZYahkWu7VMMWg6vhbEYpitY8omGoIBs4YIZzKY3OWTLr9QLi59 rIPvvsGxop8R1XfQ1ith8BcnaGarpOr2IxT7sX9RYDzkkLNSVTXT2NM+3GWn/0SVp9NA LrFCI5A+CvAfs4OAWMPxVltISUzY242tMFHW20MtJSwpwEju8smyFZpNLwXrb/+u5HcJ LBYHzPinV59Wy7GXgqJI6jLMnUy6Yb3H7eVkIfttOd5KIKalBskVIdULTqf/4tUUwx2D IMug58FeBd0HdEpjq8jhX98rlPsu1ezq6ZFHNTLTMwbs8KBXauBTRTBhRkN2+2jqSKAO BUtg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=iHclTP0ikl6Cwz4ITJDDn2F9Ml1yvYukobGdbbkPx/4=; b=KdjkWE/XPgG/MeKigvt7hEL/Js7+RYZXv+tJETf+7YsJU38j7rT2rkD6pPjjL+kP8P ATMeTaWM9FT+7aqe2KexJM0jXu/3ibJRvLuVeKyfeSE63HHHENfMHbifH+39VTIq3967 nlFnoP+V22e0UbDhG4twA/fh7ZbtAvbqrxsoC5kDvAEIP2SGf7Yv62Aww8LHVe9VY3Jk 5z369dbF84M8Nzh1ypgdmPdSvpqKPXAGlAqk6QsurHO2LWqlMcix/kDF8JC6suYnQ18a rGxnrNQ+NUqyXqj0tbx0zNHfuWdvZEqSZM9Ajn4CamQnBiuLjd6P++eg9G6VNHNGvnYO pSnQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532Ws6cvwrGN0i6mEiT4Nl+z4e7I0bPbM8m3zepucNstO/+9o5B/ TYdu9ngcxYns5yoQCpxxtCg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz8QJrg2PQ7nT1fj4Pswk3OROuA9shloMMzpN3yfEfrjptbAGavwP3KXC/laiSRq5zStNI/Xg== X-Received: by 2002:adf:dd8f:: with SMTP id x15mr4840918wrl.124.1602669256635; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 02:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from broadband.bt.com ([2a00:23c5:3395:c901:e5f2:3008:db5e:7e5b]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c21sm2862147wme.36.2020.10.14.02.54.15 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 14 Oct 2020 02:54:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Stewart Bryant Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_590FD4B2-C5F9-4C5F-A72D-C444324A7268" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 10:54:14 +0100 In-Reply-To: <22B6BB6E-751F-4B27-9FF5-C47DFED4CDDA@cisco.com> Cc: Stewart Bryant , Stephen Farrell , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" To: Eliot Lear References: <8fa06d77-e73b-aa15-683d-937e8841566f@gmail.com> <975E28FE326C22E8CD32DCC8@PSB> <5021a377-e9ca-1580-c2f0-3351b9f5fe04@huitema.net> <586DC363-B5F8-4727-8734-815F3E17F345@gmail.com> <22B6BB6E-751F-4B27-9FF5-C47DFED4CDDA@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 09:54:21 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_590FD4B2-C5F9-4C5F-A72D-C444324A7268 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 A good summary. - Stewart > On 14 Oct 2020, at 10:10, Eliot Lear wrote: >=20 > Hi Stephen >=20 >> On 13 Oct 2020, at 15:17, Stephen Farrell > wrote: >>=20 >>>=20 >>> So the problem that we have a moral responsibility to address is to >>> find methods that stop or minimise those harms. >>=20 >> I don't accept that. The "we" isn't clear, but what >> does seem clear is that meeting the requirements posed >> is (IMO anyway) likely to do more harm. I've never >> seen any proponent of borked crypto do a proper analysis >> of the damage that would be done - they almost always >> seem to approach it as mostly a PR exercise and so go >> straight to the "think of the children" and "what about >> the terrorists" talking points. >=20 >=20 > There are (at least) two threads going on here. The first is what the = social responsibility of the IETF community actually is. The nature of = our work has always been dual use. Crypto is the classic example of = that. We have to accept that. But in so doing, do we also have a = responsibility to ameliorate risks or even articulate them? That=E2=80=99= s not to say that crypto is bad- it is a foundational technology without = which the Internet could not have grown to its current size of O(10^10) = devices and over 4 billion users. I do think it=E2=80=99s reasonable to = evaluate the societal impact of our work. The hrpc was sort of a nudge = in that direction, but very small one. >=20 > The second is the risks of having these conversations in the abstract. = That generates more heat than light. When we talking about =E2=80=9Cbork= ed crypto=E2=80=9D, what do we mean? Do we mean algorithms that are = weak? Do we mean key sharing and escrow schemes? Do we mean something = else? I like the approach that the Carnegie Endowment committee led by = Steve Bellovin and Susan Landau took in dissecting this problem, in = order to find starting points and common ground with law = enforcement.[1]. But even that presents challenges. It assumes that = there are, as you more than allude, a limited number of well-governed = actors in the conversation. >=20 > I=E2=80=99m not taking a position on updating any documents, but I do = think it=E2=80=99s good for us to ponder these questions as we consider = new mechanisms. >=20 > Eliot >=20 > [1] = https://carnegieendowment.org/2019/09/10/moving-encryption-policy-conversa= tion-forward-pub-79573 = >=20 >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_590FD4B2-C5F9-4C5F-A72D-C444324A7268 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 A = good summary.

- = Stewart

On 14 Oct 2020, at 10:10, Eliot = Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:

Hi Stephen

On 13 Oct 2020, at 15:17, Stephen Farrell = <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:


So the problem that we have a moral = responsibility to address is to
find methods that stop or = minimise those harms.

I don't accept that. The "we" isn't clear, but what
does seem clear is that meeting = the requirements posed
is (IMO anyway) likely to do more harm. I've never
seen any proponent of borked = crypto do a proper analysis
of the damage that would be done - they almost = always
seem to = approach it as mostly a PR exercise and so go
straight to the "think of the = children" and "what about
the terrorists" talking points.


There = are (at least) two threads going on here.  The first is what the = social responsibility of the IETF community actually is.  The = nature of our work has always been dual use.  Crypto is the classic = example of that.  We have to accept that.  But in so doing, do = we also have a responsibility to ameliorate risks or even articulate = them?  That=E2=80=99s not to say that crypto is bad- it is a = foundational technology without which the Internet could not have grown = to its current size of O(10^10) devices and over 4 billion users. =  I do think it=E2=80=99s reasonable to evaluate the societal impact = of our work.  The hrpc was sort of a nudge in that direction, but = very small one.

The second is the risks of having these conversations in the = abstract.  That generates more heat than light.  When we = talking about =E2=80=9Cborked crypto=E2=80=9D, what do we mean?  Do = we mean algorithms that are weak?  Do we mean key sharing and = escrow schemes?  Do we mean something else? I like the approach = that the Carnegie Endowment committee led by Steve Bellovin and Susan = Landau took in dissecting this problem, in order to find starting points = and common ground with law enforcement.[1]. But even that presents = challenges.  It assumes that there are, as you more than allude, a = limited number of well-governed actors in the conversation.

I=E2=80=99m not taking a = position on updating any documents, but I do think it=E2=80=99s good for = us to ponder these questions as we consider new mechanisms.

Eliot

[1] https://carnegieendowment.org/2019/09/10/moving-encryption-poli= cy-conversation-forward-pub-79573




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URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XaDLnT-tuC30 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 04:04:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 18D4F3A1438 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 04:04:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46B08BE2C; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 12:04:24 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N82c36qFZY0e; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 12:04:22 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 96100BE1C; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 12:04:22 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1602673462; bh=o6sEjtZOyLoLGEdksMF73+A6UErR95A556/3GuwC314=; h=To:Cc:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=QinMAMIsdFSEK3IOC2hRlD+JmbGUZfvbKvqNnd5A5UoHzOHZAeSffvVfUrUM15Xep T+85vFlzEFhst/TvkGcwRauF1x5BC/qEJe767Y18vhDq6c/G3tDf/9F4YZ9nzwaSaA arGfEdPedljcHkRp813iLVkergKXRqRRxXDnLEPQ= To: Andrew Campling Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" References: <8fa06d77-e73b-aa15-683d-937e8841566f@gmail.com> <975E28FE326C22E8CD32DCC8@PSB> <5021a377-e9ca-1580-c2f0-3351b9f5fe04@huitema.net> <586DC363-B5F8-4727-8734-815F3E17F345@gmail.com> <65CD5A4A-E7AD-4051-90A6-31AD536AB0AD@gmail.com> From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= 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X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 11:04:29 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --N719OAtDjiNOnU6PF03wj2jpMuFmAQQAm Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="DLusZtJt12bsIfOIPsirJnDrjmpdKG8Xa"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Andrew Campling Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Message-ID: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? References: <8fa06d77-e73b-aa15-683d-937e8841566f@gmail.com> <975E28FE326C22E8CD32DCC8@PSB> <5021a377-e9ca-1580-c2f0-3351b9f5fe04@huitema.net> <586DC363-B5F8-4727-8734-815F3E17F345@gmail.com> <65CD5A4A-E7AD-4051-90A6-31AD536AB0AD@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: --DLusZtJt12bsIfOIPsirJnDrjmpdKG8Xa Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------9941BA7A4A217452ADFAF196" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------9941BA7A4A217452ADFAF196 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 14/10/2020 11:41, Andrew Campling wrote: > I agree that the IETF is best at solving technical problems and note > that it has previously determined both that end-to-end encryption is > the correct technical solution to protect privacy and that privacy > should be prioritised over at least some other considerations such as > the significant harms caused by certain behaviours that have > benefited from that encryption The above is not accurate. Encryption mechanisms provide different services (confid, auth) that are of use for more than just user privacy. For example, I'd guess we'd all be unhappy if various bug trackers leaked plaintext. There are many other examples of confidentiality being required for security and not only privacy. 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X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 11:11:41 -0000 WW91IGFyZSBjb3JyZWN0LCBJIGFncmVlIHRoYXQgSSBoYXZlIG5vdCBwcm92aWRlZCBhbiBleGhh dXN0aXZlIGxpc3Qgb2YgdGhlIHVzZXMgb2YgZW5jcnlwdGlvbiwgbm9yIGluZGVlZCBoYXZlIEkg aW5jbHVkZWQgYW4gZXhoYXVzdGl2ZSBsaXN0IG9mIHRoZSBoYXJtcyB0aGF0IGNvdWxkIGJlIGFz c29jaWF0ZWQgd2l0aCBzb21lIG9mIHRob3NlIHVzZXMuICBUaGlzIGRvZXMgbm90IGRldHJhY3Qg ZnJvbSB0aGUgcmVzdCBvZiB0aGUgcG9zdCBhbmQgSSBsb29rIGZvcndhcmQgdG8gc2VlaW5nIHZp ZXdzIG9uIHRoZSBzdWJzdGFudGl2ZSBwb2ludHMgbWFkZS4gIA0KDQpBbmRyZXcNCg0KLS0tLS1P cmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCkZyb206IFN0ZXBoZW4gRmFycmVsbCA8c3RlcGhlbi5mYXJy ZWxsQGNzLnRjZC5pZT4gDQpTZW50OiAxNCBPY3RvYmVyIDIwMjAgMTI6MDQNClRvOiBBbmRyZXcg Q2FtcGxpbmcgPGFuZHJldy5jYW1wbGluZ0A0MTkuY29uc3VsdGluZz4NCkNjOiBhcmNoaXRlY3R1 cmUtZGlzY3Vzc0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFthcmNoLWRdIFRpbWUgdG8gcmVib290 IFJGQzE5ODQgYW5kIFJGQzI4MDQ/DQoNCg0KSGl5YSwNCg0KT24gMTQvMTAvMjAyMCAxMTo0MSwg QW5kcmV3IENhbXBsaW5nIHdyb3RlOg0KPiBJIGFncmVlIHRoYXQgdGhlIElFVEYgaXMgYmVzdCBh dCBzb2x2aW5nIHRlY2huaWNhbCBwcm9ibGVtcyBhbmQgbm90ZSANCj4gdGhhdCBpdCBoYXMgcHJl dmlvdXNseSBkZXRlcm1pbmVkIGJvdGggdGhhdCBlbmQtdG8tZW5kIGVuY3J5cHRpb24gaXMgDQo+ IHRoZSBjb3JyZWN0IHRlY2huaWNhbCBzb2x1dGlvbiB0byBwcm90ZWN0IHByaXZhY3kgYW5kIHRo YXQgcHJpdmFjeSANCj4gc2hvdWxkIGJlIHByaW9yaXRpc2VkIG92ZXIgYXQgbGVhc3Qgc29tZSBv dGhlciBjb25zaWRlcmF0aW9ucyBzdWNoIGFzIA0KPiB0aGUgc2lnbmlmaWNhbnQgaGFybXMgY2F1 c2VkIGJ5IGNlcnRhaW4gYmVoYXZpb3VycyB0aGF0IGhhdmUgYmVuZWZpdGVkIA0KPiBmcm9tIHRo YXQgZW5jcnlwdGlvbg0KVGhlIGFib3ZlIGlzIG5vdCBhY2N1cmF0ZS4gRW5jcnlwdGlvbiBtZWNo YW5pc21zIHByb3ZpZGUgZGlmZmVyZW50IHNlcnZpY2VzIChjb25maWQsIGF1dGgpIHRoYXQgYXJl IG9mIHVzZSBmb3IgbW9yZSB0aGFuIGp1c3QgdXNlciBwcml2YWN5LiBGb3IgZXhhbXBsZSwgSSdk IGd1ZXNzIHdlJ2QgYWxsIGJlIHVuaGFwcHkgaWYgdmFyaW91cyBidWcgdHJhY2tlcnMgbGVha2Vk IHBsYWludGV4dC4NClRoZXJlIGFyZSBtYW55IG90aGVyIGV4YW1wbGVzIG9mIGNvbmZpZGVudGlh bGl0eSBiZWluZyByZXF1aXJlZCBmb3Igc2VjdXJpdHkgYW5kIG5vdCBvbmx5IHByaXZhY3kuDQoN ClMuDQo= From nobody Wed Oct 14 04:17:32 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F4293A02BD for ; 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Wed, 14 Oct 2020 12:17:26 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NIOQGxZLcSBa; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 12:17:22 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 50287BE2C; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 12:17:21 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1602674241; bh=jjoU1eM7zeblZm5BjQGy5CNy7OGexplfj7oZOMYYe1Q=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=YiqrcKJDftGlJE+qeoyAjrpHHrnuD71LDXchlDCyk554VD9FYqV/TiBVMaTiqqFRN QX1XD4MNFTLGyk+wtHeZeRbVCiIBz2ZO44imPskdeaL0Z6M3OwXS74JQHJ1/MoYfD8 2MyKVflDROivOFKkE/6tNdrjKVdaFGA/5QLLdqLk= To: Andrew Campling Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" References: <8fa06d77-e73b-aa15-683d-937e8841566f@gmail.com> <975E28FE326C22E8CD32DCC8@PSB> <5021a377-e9ca-1580-c2f0-3351b9f5fe04@huitema.net> <586DC363-B5F8-4727-8734-815F3E17F345@gmail.com> <65CD5A4A-E7AD-4051-90A6-31AD536AB0AD@gmail.com> From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; 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Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="N2IVoesDuaQlXY9Q1p6KkdYaN2DDPZDgS" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 11:17:30 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --N2IVoesDuaQlXY9Q1p6KkdYaN2DDPZDgS Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="wkmMcfugkZJQzbPLY3KAXYwPdpcNTWDez"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Andrew Campling Cc: "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Message-ID: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? References: <8fa06d77-e73b-aa15-683d-937e8841566f@gmail.com> <975E28FE326C22E8CD32DCC8@PSB> <5021a377-e9ca-1580-c2f0-3351b9f5fe04@huitema.net> <586DC363-B5F8-4727-8734-815F3E17F345@gmail.com> <65CD5A4A-E7AD-4051-90A6-31AD536AB0AD@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: --wkmMcfugkZJQzbPLY3KAXYwPdpcNTWDez Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------5580F64C8045F7B0E790A450" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------5580F64C8045F7B0E790A450 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 14/10/2020 12:11, Andrew Campling wrote: > You are correct, I agree that I have not provided an exhaustive list > of the uses of encryption, nor indeed have I included an exhaustive > list of the harms that could be associated with some of those uses. > This does not detract from the rest of the post and I look forward to > seeing views on the substantive points made. I might have gotten confused by the quoting in that post but I do believe it does undermine your argument which seemed to be assuming that the only justification for confidentiality was privacy. Given we agree that is not the case, ISTM any attempt to setup a vs. argument fails because . S. >=20 > Andrew >=20 > -----Original Message----- From: Stephen Farrell > Sent: 14 October 2020 12:04 To: Andrew > Campling Cc: > architecture-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot > RFC1984 and RFC2804? >=20 >=20 > Hiya, >=20 > On 14/10/2020 11:41, Andrew Campling wrote: >> I agree that the IETF is best at solving technical problems and >> note that it has previously determined both that end-to-end >> encryption is the correct technical solution to protect privacy and >> that privacy should be prioritised over at least some other >> considerations such as the significant harms caused by certain >> behaviours that have benefited from that encryption > The above is not accurate. Encryption mechanisms provide different > services (confid, auth) that are of use for more than just user > privacy. For example, I'd guess we'd all be unhappy if various bug > trackers leaked plaintext. There are many other examples of > confidentiality being required for security and not only privacy. >=20 > S. >=20 --------------5580F64C8045F7B0E790A450 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 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Wed, 14 Oct 2020 17:31:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 00260440059; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 17:31:49 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 17:31:49 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <20201014153149.GB13376@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <8fa06d77-e73b-aa15-683d-937e8841566f@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <8fa06d77-e73b-aa15-683d-937e8841566f@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 15:31:58 -0000 If i may rant about context, and like the rest of the thread it is somewhat recurring: We should remember that a good amount of desire for end-to-end encryption is not only driven by user privacy desire but by the commercial interests of over the top providers wanting to prohibit the underlay operator to interfere with its business model. This is never openly talked about in the IETF, but instead all those OTT that want Internet end-to-end encryption for this reason put all their efforts into promoting the value of privacy over any other conflicting goals: Sounds a lot better than "we don't want SP to get a share in our ad revenue for just transporting our bits" (just as an example). Aka: The IETF has a commercially driven biased view on the relative importance of privacy via end-to-end encryption. And its behaving like a single-issue organization in this respect. As shown through the complete absence of any attempts to tackle / discuss the competing problems that need to be solved such as those of law enforcement. I sent a prior email about additional work that could be done. Same as writing to /dev/null. Let me try a more fundamental competing issue: Firewalls in any commercial organization are there to keep bad stuff from coming in and protected stuff from going out. To that end, in the face of encryption, more and more data-model level inspection devices are emerging allowing organizational security teams to control / inspect if/how cloud based services do comply with those organizational security demands. Nothing of this AFAIK is done in the IETF. Even as a "User", i am a lot more worried these days about all the IoT devices i could have at home and how they perpass and resell my data, than law enforcement agencies putting backdoors into my PC. Where is the IETF on this problem ? It is owned primarily by organizations whose core business model is the (ab)use of User data or those that support such organizations through infrastructure (depending on them) . Considered IOTOPS WG of course has this problem not on the proposed charter either. Any similar IETF statements like RFC7258 about this application level behavior ? AFAIK, no: It is the "evil" (see below) EU that did the first globally relevant scheme to put limits to that abuse: GDPR. Is it as simple and elegant as TLS ? Of course not. Its just like Democracy: worst solution except for all the others. Sorry for the interruption. Please carry on. On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 08:27:05AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Not to mention RFC 7258. > Well, obviously all the law enforcemenet actions are not pervasive but highly selective against legally determined suspects of criminal activity for whom then the right of privacy is forfeit for the subject of the investigation. So democratic governments would never do PerPass > > Orders from the Top: The EU???s Timetable for Dismantling End-to-End Encryption: > https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/10/orders-top-eus-timetable-dismantling-end-end-encryption > > Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime > https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Technology/Five-Eyes-and-Japan-call-for-Facebook-backdoor-to-monitor-crime > > Regards > Brian Carpenter > > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Wed Oct 14 12:58:40 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B55653A100F for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 12:58:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.312 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.312 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qkTWo3B7YlI4 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 12:58:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x102a.google.com (mail-pj1-x102a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E5DE3A0FD5 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 12:58:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x102a.google.com with SMTP id h4so389629pjk.0 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 12:58:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Iu4Utb/fd1QMJQKji06vMdw09hqs1Xo0wmVZZJ53BVY=; b=JUlg2wrlGlqveXzJ+9iztrLwa4CsdPpKQH0tzl7CGDOZHCZSRma8yvqTJbZRzTnRQy wpfOHjxrB1tqKUFlcoQZoBUidmXGH9BxOMHOY9TpeYlNwuOycWstk1pKZTKCaL2irsIx 5EY1026R8UcXhkpii+53kl9Xhv3I5THSpJD3JkoEl3hxm7dSNfqGIHESlJNR6iAp4IBN XPRki4HS56VFJC/AnjVXH5QxNY/goGkNEKeWEwhPZETE18ZoMVfA8697lZeE/0tYLsDa o0bDhqIE3og3P59rFLOLsYDX1yHcU0oeiGCVSCz9XwXLu5BWhT62nlTkt8EeMcqU9Uo+ LJ7Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Iu4Utb/fd1QMJQKji06vMdw09hqs1Xo0wmVZZJ53BVY=; b=javVHMquK67tlkwcN808jleyaJkwUNghn35BHz7Nb67czlsEls5YtV7k4aegLzsUgy 9RGX2DoQcYKdCet8pJJuSkIvNVF8atcvpMW2ygYY0PyZQ5we7xmRjCd1N0Uqeg0ioO5c BTRLQnLNJgBnOHqQnRtWDNgcqN8f0WU8vYrTElm4V60zo1CgwVJC+AQeAGeZrueMYxZX fD0vHMbb0HCEC4i+mTfUbyESXEjAZKwSsHgDEjIpFIB0R/zF4i8qlmGg4DoRorQpxOle LijbI2pKQALUdqghnGRZMb83buR4aMP8IxciAfC0PFwJHeFtBZW46z27vEiDa9apH/N4 8tDg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533ob7DZm/oSOBle482TjQeB8A5SmCsLI3KNCohd59MyrS9R5uz7 vVU+Tj9hawZo8KFgoA01UeIivVm3oqiJWA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwjfbT+FQ+GtqhHTxYRuJH6m765Pv9E/Egmcb8FRJ5Bv/ixXaw246sLt/KdiLPPGhCiWoppAw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:4189:: with SMTP id hh9mr778121pjb.199.1602705515396; Wed, 14 Oct 2020 12:58:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.132.159]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g4sm403235pgj.15.2020.10.14.12.58.31 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 14 Oct 2020 12:58:34 -0700 (PDT) To: Andrew Campling Cc: Christian Huitema , Stewart Bryant , Stephen Farrell , John C Klensin , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" References: <8fa06d77-e73b-aa15-683d-937e8841566f@gmail.com> <975E28FE326C22E8CD32DCC8@PSB> <5021a377-e9ca-1580-c2f0-3351b9f5fe04@huitema.net> <586DC363-B5F8-4727-8734-815F3E17F345@gmail.com> <65CD5A4A-E7AD-4051-90A6-31AD536AB0AD@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 08:58:30 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 19:58:39 -0000 Andrew, On 14-Oct-20 23:41, Andrew Campling wrote: =2E.. > In addition, I challenge the presumption that the IETF is the only bod= y able to make such a determination about these matters and that it can a= nd should do so without undertaking full consultation with other stakehol= ders. I for one make no such presumption. But we have never made that claim. Th= e claim we've made is that we know how to make *our* protocols secure aga= inst inspection or forgery by 3rd parties, and that it's our job to do so= =2E When we try to go wider than that, we fail. I am not very sympathetic to = "a true multi-stakeholder consultation process as suggested by the IAB=E2= =80=99s RFC 8890". The IETF is not in any way a suitable vehicle for that= kind of process, as anyway who remembers WGIG/WSIS is well aware. 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15 Oct 2020 10:14:20 +0000 Received: from dhcp-10-61-108-145.cisco.com (dhcp-10-61-108-145.cisco.com [10.61.108.145]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 09FAEJvP015426 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 15 Oct 2020 10:14:20 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9E022BCD-565D-4CAD-8465-1E438260BEBF" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 12:14:19 +0200 In-Reply-To: Cc: Andrew Campling , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" To: Brian E Carpenter References: <8fa06d77-e73b-aa15-683d-937e8841566f@gmail.com> <975E28FE326C22E8CD32DCC8@PSB> <5021a377-e9ca-1580-c2f0-3351b9f5fe04@huitema.net> <586DC363-B5F8-4727-8734-815F3E17F345@gmail.com> <65CD5A4A-E7AD-4051-90A6-31AD536AB0AD@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.108.145, dhcp-10-61-108-145.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-2.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 10:14:26 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_9E022BCD-565D-4CAD-8465-1E438260BEBF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Brian, > On 14 Oct 2020, at 21:58, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > When we try to go wider than that, we fail. I am not very sympathetic = to "a true multi-stakeholder consultation process as suggested by the = IAB=E2=80=99s RFC 8890". The IETF is not in any way a suitable vehicle = for that kind of process, as anyway who remembers WGIG/WSIS is well = aware. The reason in the end that I supported that document was that I believe = there are aspects that the IETF could really stand to improve. In = particular, outreach is not something from which we should shy away. = Rather we individually should view it as a responsibility. To think = otherwise leads to ill-considered proposals that either get deployed and = later cause problems, or simply don=E2=80=99t get deployed. Eliot= --Apple-Mail=_9E022BCD-565D-4CAD-8465-1E438260BEBF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Brian,

On 14 Oct 2020, at 21:58, Brian E Carpenter = <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

When we try to go wider than = that, we fail. I am not very sympathetic to "a true multi-stakeholder = consultation process as suggested by the IAB=E2=80=99s RFC 8890". The = IETF is not in any way a suitable vehicle for that kind of process, as = anyway who remembers WGIG/WSIS is well = aware.

The = reason in the end that I supported that document was that I believe = there are aspects that the IETF could really stand to improve.  In = particular, outreach is not something from which we should shy away. =  Rather we individually should view it as a responsibility. =  To think otherwise leads to ill-considered proposals that either = get deployed and later cause problems, or simply don=E2=80=99t get = deployed.

Eliot
= --Apple-Mail=_9E022BCD-565D-4CAD-8465-1E438260BEBF-- From nobody Thu Oct 15 05:38:55 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 629983A13AA for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2020 05:38:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lLWfeIQ8u71D for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2020 05:38:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x235.google.com (mail-oi1-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 86C273A1370 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2020 05:38:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x235.google.com with SMTP id s81so2884767oie.13 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2020 05:38:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=kYLCcYSwvBOpoBIaxHyTKRQGSzC2SVFvD6gfcitd8Q8=; b=GjeqM87iLJNzvk1O2XJLFhEd7un3l0SdpIOTI7/fUgFB3CLXvsa0yR5QizpwAvDG3t U4mXgVo+NtADsy5egl9XsnrRMo0kii6Lqsurd7YlJl3ujYcI3z+/MxIWlVw+5XSGvBBV msWMe/Pyj4c7MKP8gaIByS1PUgcBk8o1yyzgXW+Q+xM+RDexOUUi7bGE6Cebs05XVuj2 TnCHThK/IvVIoJYTadvsXBdm5ZlS7nU2cLjXQh5ZGR3e9hUhkSbXXN+t8LV0+ZRDaAR5 A8sWFShGxBA3DdLeGwfb/EFEofuTUJoD7vf86CcqgbdXeDtmrRXSK/Y4X4xkxDIQwbjq UI1A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=kYLCcYSwvBOpoBIaxHyTKRQGSzC2SVFvD6gfcitd8Q8=; b=dU2LTSfUrz1ZMgirlsEYGK4ITxFuCZUmQiN2/BF7cSkOQCaNNBPsfqoEQ2F5l3o41K W0CZSxYOFn0Tf2ruWR5Dvvn5LqwDopxSDOxn1ey+Z6BmIB0Ci70mXbvObOOUjspw8g2m j4lmFBuIvUhsCCUjSvfRBPxWjtIMTDoHtn0JYrQQZmIb5F5Jk8fOEL3sPGuWdFPwNa15 nouAWHs50GAQMfS7BpiYNIrn+GGzOwXM2HQ8S+OGEIa7mkdzJAlJIydNvdUbYiB7JIuG IBB+AIyN14KqRGlXmnfcejafxZQDCpui5A6wWBGINn2yt3viAQLFliXLpo1QlsK/72p2 mBTQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532K4ZDLA9osw+0yDF9cDc0HBC6W9vU122zJM5C0d2P61/T2c8sF gttIOL9/23oUu8dMYyvO/OxqqjJrfiDCQ9tSDlg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyDkaPuh6VIgz5vS1kJengFoihINhmU/dYJJOs2+4Zxj9I0RfbObyaDgcSeDSCSGGXOhbSFLL8roS6z/HLR9ro= X-Received: by 2002:aca:1e08:: with SMTP id m8mr1873290oic.168.1602765531631; Thu, 15 Oct 2020 05:38:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a9d:d44:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 15 Oct 2020 05:38:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <8fa06d77-e73b-aa15-683d-937e8841566f@gmail.com> <975E28FE326C22E8CD32DCC8@PSB> <5021a377-e9ca-1580-c2f0-3351b9f5fe04@huitema.net> <586DC363-B5F8-4727-8734-815F3E17F345@gmail.com> <65CD5A4A-E7AD-4051-90A6-31AD536AB0AD@gmail.com> From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 19:38:50 +0700 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Andrew Campling , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002bd19d05b1b4ee10" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 12:38:54 -0000 --0000000000002bd19d05b1b4ee10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Brian, Andrew, & architecture-discuss, I am attempting to read this thread which may be around "how the IETF in relation with the politics of the Internet": Mr Brian said: "... to make *our* protocols secure against inspection or forgery by 3rd parties, and that it's our job to do so". Thanks to the Internet among others, the world society is no globalized: by such machine of communication operating globally, it is about societal elements of the economic, the political and the cultural among others. As well national as international goverments ('policies) are part of the event. What would global economy, politics and culture supposedly be...? To the matter above we may find questions about engineering the Internet, especially its protocols, and its institutional supports. There are interests and whereas protocols define how a tech works/operates, does changed invariants* of a tech not mean another, or new, tech...? As the Internet is not the telephone so that new invariants makes the new tech not to be the Internet --considering a history of the Internet which collaborates with the telephone...? * Being cited from the "2019 ISOC Global Report: Consolidation in the Internet Economy": (We) may think of the I as an idea of how networks of computers communicate, and the invariants describe the most important features of that idea. This concept of the Internet as an idea is operationalised through some familiar protocols (e.g., Internet Protocol, Border Gateway Protocol) and functions (e.g., the Internet Assigned Numbers Authority).) The invariants are: -global reach, integrity -general purpose - supports innovation without requiring permission - accessible - based on interoperability and mutual agreement - collaboration - technology, reusable building block https://future.internetsociety.org/2019/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2019/04/= InternetSociety-GlobalInternetReport-ConsolidationintheInternetEconomy.pdf Regard, Guntur Wiseno Putra Pada Kamis, 15 Oktober 2020, Brian E Carpenter menulis: > Andrew, > > On 14-Oct-20 23:41, Andrew Campling wrote: > ... > > In addition, I challenge the presumption that the IETF is the only bod= y > able to make such a determination about these matters and that it can and > should do so without undertaking full consultation with other stakeholder= s. > > I for one make no such presumption. But we have never made that claim. Th= e > claim we've made is that we know how to make *our* protocols secure again= st > inspection or forgery by 3rd parties, and that it's our job to do so. > > When we try to go wider than that, we fail. I am not very sympathetic to > "a true multi-stakeholder consultation process as suggested by the IAB=E2= =80=99s > RFC 8890". The IETF is not in any way a suitable vehicle for that kind of > process, as anyway who remembers WGIG/WSIS is well aware. > > Regards > Brian > > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > --0000000000002bd19d05b1b4ee10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Brian, Andrew, &
architecture-discuss,

I am attempting to read this thread which may b= e around "how the IETF in relation with the politics of the Internet&q= uot;:


Mr Brian said: ".= .. to make *our* protocols secure against inspection or forgery by 3rd part= ies, and that it's our job to do so".
=
Thanks to the Internet among others, the world societ= y is no globalized: by such machine of communication operating globally, it= is about societal elements of the economic, the political and the cultural= among others. As well national as international goverments ('policies)= are part of the event. What would global economy, politics and culture sup= posedly be...?


To the matter above we may find questions about engineering the Internet, e= specially its protocols, and its institutional supports. There are interest= s and whereas protocols define how a tech works/operates, does changed inva= riants* of a tech not mean another, or new, tech...? As the Internet is not= the telephone so that new invariants makes the new tech not to be the Inte= rnet --considering a history of the Internet which collaborates with the te= lephone...?


* Being cited from the "2019 ISOC Global Report: Consolidation in the = Internet Economy":
(We) may think of the I as an idea of how networks of computers communicate= , and the
invariants describe the most important features of that idea. This concept = of the Internet as an idea is operationalised through some familiar protoco= ls (e.g., Internet Protocol, Border Gateway Protocol) and functions (e.g., = the Internet Assigned
Numbers Authority).)

The invariants are:
-global reach, integrity
-general purpose
- supports innovation without requiring permission
- accessible
- based on interoperability and mutual agreement
- collaboration
- technology, reusable building block



https://future.internetsociety.org/2019/wp-content/uploads/site= s/2/2019/04/InternetSociety-GlobalInternetReport-ConsolidationintheInternet= Economy.pdf=C2=A0


=


Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra




Pada Kamis, 15 Oktober 2020, Brian= E Carpenter <brian.e.car= penter@gmail.com> menulis:
Andrew,=

On 14-Oct-20 23:41, Andrew Campling wrote:
...
>=C2=A0 In addition, I challenge the presumption that the IETF is the on= ly body able to make such a determination about these matters and that it c= an and should do so without undertaking full consultation with other stakeh= olders.

I for one make no such presumption. But we have never made that claim. The = claim we've made is that we know how to make *our* protocols secure aga= inst inspection or forgery by 3rd parties, and that it's our job to do = so.

When we try to go wider than that, we fail. I am not very sympathetic to &q= uot;a true multi-stakeholder consultation process as suggested by the IAB= =E2=80=99s RFC 8890". The IETF is not in any way a suitable vehicle fo= r that kind of process, as anyway who remembers WGIG/WSIS is well aware.
Regards
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian

_______________________________________________
Architecture-discuss mailing list
Architecture-discuss@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discu= ss
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[130.216.37.163]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h13sm337437pgs.66.2020.10.15.15.46.46 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 15 Oct 2020 15:46:48 -0700 (PDT) To: Eliot Lear Cc: Andrew Campling , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" References: <8fa06d77-e73b-aa15-683d-937e8841566f@gmail.com> <975E28FE326C22E8CD32DCC8@PSB> <5021a377-e9ca-1580-c2f0-3351b9f5fe04@huitema.net> <586DC363-B5F8-4727-8734-815F3E17F345@gmail.com> <65CD5A4A-E7AD-4051-90A6-31AD536AB0AD@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 11:46:44 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804? X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 22:46:51 -0000 On 15-Oct-20 23:14, Eliot Lear wrote: > Hi Brian, >=20 >> On 14 Oct 2020, at 21:58, Brian E Carpenter > wrote: >> >> When we try to go wider than that, we fail. I am not very sympathetic = to "a true multi-stakeholder consultation process as suggested by the IAB= =E2=80=99s RFC 8890". The IETF is not in any way a suitable vehicle for t= hat kind of process, as anyway who remembers WGIG/WSIS is well aware. >=20 > The reason in the end that I supported that document was that I believe= there are aspects that the IETF could really stand to improve. =C2=A0In = particular, outreach is not something from which we should shy away. =C2=A0= Rather we individually should view it as a responsibility. =C2=A0To think= otherwise leads to ill-considered proposals that either get deployed and= later cause problems, or simply don=E2=80=99t get deployed. Yes, and I certainly support the higher level message of RFC8890. But act= ually organizing outreach to civil society and governments is way outside= the IETF's and IAB's skill set. We have traditionally relied on ISOC for= that, and that's one of the reasons that the IAB is chartered "as a sour= ce of advice and guidance to the Board of Trustees and Officers of the In= ternet Society concerning technical, architectural, procedural, and (wher= e appropriate) policy matters". Has the ISOC Board discussed RFC8890? Brian