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IEEE/IFIP International Workshop on Management of the Future Internet =
(ManFI 2012)=20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
16 April 2012
Maui, Hawaii, USA
http://www.manfi.org =
<https://mailfront.ad.ulster.ac.uk/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=3Dhttp://www=
.manfi.org>=20


CALL FOR PAPERS
---------------
The Fourth IEEE/IFIP International Workshop on Management of the Future =
Internet (ManFI 2012) will be held in conjunction with IEEE/IFIP NOMS =
2012 in Maui, Hawaii, USA, from April 16-20, 2012. The workshop is =
sponsored by the IEEE Communications Society (ComSoc) and supported by =
POSTECH ITCE, Ghent University-IBBT, NEC, and Ericsson LM. The workshop =
is endorsed by the Technical Committee on Network Operations and =
Management (CNOM).
It is widely agreed that, despite its many successes, the current =
Internet also has a set of systemic problems, ranging from an upcoming =
shortage of IP addresses to insufficient security. However, the lack of =
scalable and agile manageability is arguably more important, as without =
management, it is impossible to build systems that adapt the services =
and resources offered in a context-dependent manner.
In either case (clean slate vs. evolution vs. revolution) we must =
consider the manageability of the Future Internet from the beginning. =
Following the success of the three previous editions of this workshop, =
held in conjunction with IM 2009, NOMS 2010 and IM 2011, ManFI 2012 aims =
at providing an international forum for researchers in these and similar =
areas. ManFI 2012 will combine original full paper presentations with a =
motivating keynote, quick hot topic presentations and a panel discussion =
to thoroughly explore this challenging topic.

Topics of interest
------------------
Authors are invited to submit papers that fall into or are related to =
the topic areas listed below:
- Architectural Issues
   * Advantages and disadvantages of revolutionary, evolutionary, and =
other approaches to managing the Future Internet
   * Separation of data, control, and management planes
   * Design of architectural building blocks for managing the Future =
Internet
   * Advances in measurement, management, security, accounting, =
mobility, and other functions
   * Virtualization of resources and services
   * Dynamic composition of management and operational functionality
   * Mechanisms for managing interconnected computational =
infrastructures (e.g. elastic clouds, federated clouds) in the Future =
Internet
   * Implications of social network success on the Future Internet =
architecture
- Design and Implementation Issues
   * Abstractions for programmable network elements
   * Accommodating context-awareness in management
   * Applying  situation awareness to network management
   * Federation between administrative domains and support of all =
constituencies
   * The role of models, ontologies, and other knowledge abstractions in =
the Future Internet
   * Uncertainty and probabilistic approaches to management of the =
Future Internet
   * Approaches for the organization of management data, data analytics =
and visualization
   * Experience reports from Future Internet experimental facilities =
set-up and results
- Economic Issues
   * Economic aspects driving the deployment of Future Internet =
management technology
   * Economic opportunities and challenges for management technology
   * Experience reports from management in test beds

Paper submission
----------------
Paper submissions must present original, research or experiences. =
Late-breaking advances and work-in-progress reports from ongoing =
research are also encouraged. Only original papers that have not been =
published or submitted for publication elsewhere can be submitted. Each =
submission must be written in English, accompanied by a 75 to 200 word =
abstract that clearly outlines the scope and contributions of the paper, =
and a list of up to 5 key words. There is a length limitation of 6 pages =
(including title, abstract, all figures, tables, and references) for =
regular conference papers, and 4 pages for short papers. Submissions =
must be in IEEE 2-column style. Papers exceeding these limits, multiple =
submissions, and self-plagiarized papers will be rejected without =
further review. Authors should submit their papers in PDF, postscript, =
or Word formats via JEMS: (https://submissoes.sbc.org.br/ =
<https://mailfront.ad.ulster.ac.uk/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=3Dhttps://su=
bmissoes.sbc.org.br/> ).

Proceedings
-----------
Papers accepted for ManFI 2012 will be included in the conference =
proceedings, IEEE Xplore, and EI Index. The IEEE reserves the right to =
remove any paper from IEEE Xplore if the paper is not presented at the =
workshop. Awards will be presented to the best paper and to the best =
student paper at the workshop. Furthermore, we plan to work with a =
leading journal, such as JNSM, TNSM and IJNM, to solicit extended =
versions of the best papers of ManFI 2012 to be submitted for review.

Workshop Co-Chairs
------------------
- Prof. James Won-Ki Hong, POSTECH, Korea
- Prof. Filip De Turck, Ghent University - IBBT, Belgium
- Dr. Yoshiaki Kiriha, NEC, Japan
- Dr. Sven van der Meer, Ericsson LM, Ireland

Publicity Co-Chairs
-------------------
- Leonidas Lymberopoulos, National Technical University of Athens, =
Greece=20
- Cathryn Peoples, University of Ulster, UK=20

Important dates
---------------
- Abstract registration deadline: December 14, 2011
- Paper submission: December 20, 2011
- Notification of acceptance: January 31, 2012
- Final version of papers due: February 15, 2012
- Workshop date: April 16, 2012

For more information, please contact one of the Workshop Co-Chairs at =
tpcchairs@manfi2012.org

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<BODY>=0A=
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<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2 =
face=3DArial>------------------------------------------------------------=
-----------------------------------------<BR>&nbsp;Please accept our =
apologies if you receive multiple copies of this =
CfP<BR>------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----------------------------------<BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 =
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<P><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2 face=3DArial>IEEE/IFIP International =
Workshop on Management of the Future Internet (ManFI 2012) =
<BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>16 April 2012<BR>Maui, Hawaii, USA<BR><A =
href=3D"https://mailfront.ad.ulster.ac.uk/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=3Dhtt=
p://www.manfi.org" target=3D_blank>http://www.manfi.org</A></P>=0A=
<DIV><BR>CALL FOR PAPERS<BR>---------------<BR>The Fourth IEEE/IFIP =
International Workshop on Management of the Future Internet (ManFI 2012) =
will be held in conjunction with IEEE/IFIP NOMS 2012 in Maui, Hawaii, =
USA, from April 16-20, 2012. The workshop is sponsored by the IEEE =
Communications Society (ComSoc) and supported by POSTECH ITCE, Ghent =
University-IBBT, NEC, and Ericsson LM. The workshop is endorsed by the =
Technical Committee on Network Operations and Management (CNOM).</DIV>=0A=
<DIV>It is widely agreed that, despite its many successes, the current =
Internet also has a set of systemic problems, ranging from an upcoming =
shortage of IP addresses to insufficient security. However, the lack of =
scalable and agile manageability is arguably more important, as without =
management, it is impossible to build systems that adapt the services =
and resources offered in a context-dependent manner.</DIV>=0A=
<DIV>In either case (clean slate vs. evolution vs. revolution) we must =
consider the manageability of the Future Internet from the beginning. =
Following the success of the three previous editions of this workshop, =
held in conjunction with IM 2009, NOMS 2010 and IM 2011, ManFI 2012 aims =
at providing an international forum for researchers in these and similar =
areas. ManFI 2012 will combine original full paper presentations with a =
motivating keynote, quick hot topic presentations and a panel discussion =
to thoroughly explore this challenging topic.</DIV>=0A=
<DIV><BR>Topics of interest<BR>------------------<BR>Authors are invited =
to submit papers that fall into or are related to the topic areas listed =
below:<BR>- Architectural Issues<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; * Advantages and =
disadvantages of revolutionary, evolutionary, and other approaches to =
managing the Future Internet<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; * Separation of data, =
control, and management planes<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; * Design of architectural =
building blocks for managing the Future Internet<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; * =
Advances in measurement, management, security, accounting, mobility, and =
other functions<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; * Virtualization of resources and =
services<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; * Dynamic composition of management and =
operational functionality<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; * Mechanisms for managing =
interconnected computational infrastructures (e.g. elastic clouds, =
federated clouds) in the Future Internet<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; * Implications =
of social network success on the Future Internet architecture<BR>- =
Design and Implementation Issues<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; * Abstractions for =
programmable network elements<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; * Accommodating =
context-awareness in management<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; * Applying&nbsp; =
situation awareness to network management<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; * Federation =
between administrative domains and support of all =
constituencies<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; * The role of models, ontologies, and =
other knowledge abstractions in the Future Internet<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; * =
Uncertainty and probabilistic approaches to management of the Future =
Internet<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; * Approaches for the organization of management =
data, data analytics and visualization<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; * Experience =
reports from Future Internet experimental facilities set-up and =
results<BR>- Economic Issues<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; * Economic aspects driving =
the deployment of Future Internet management technology<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
* Economic opportunities and challenges for management =
technology<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; * Experience reports from management in test =
beds</DIV>=0A=
<DIV><BR>Paper submission<BR>----------------<BR>Paper submissions must =
present original, research or experiences. Late-breaking advances and =
work-in-progress reports from ongoing research are also encouraged. Only =
original papers that have not been published or submitted for =
publication elsewhere can be submitted. Each submission must be written =
in English, accompanied by a 75 to 200 word abstract that clearly =
outlines the scope and contributions of the paper, and a list of up to 5 =
key words. There is a length limitation of 6 pages (including title, =
abstract, all figures, tables, and references) for regular conference =
papers, and 4 pages for short papers. Submissions must be in IEEE =
2-column style. Papers exceeding these limits, multiple submissions, and =
self-plagiarized papers will be rejected without further review. Authors =
should submit their papers in PDF, postscript, or Word formats via JEMS: =
(<A =
href=3D"https://mailfront.ad.ulster.ac.uk/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=3Dhtt=
ps://submissoes.sbc.org.br/" =
target=3D_blank>https://submissoes.sbc.org.br/</A>).</DIV>=0A=
<DIV><BR>Proceedings<BR>-----------<BR>Papers accepted for ManFI 2012 =
will be included in the conference proceedings, IEEE Xplore, and EI =
Index. The IEEE reserves the right to remove any paper from IEEE Xplore =
if the paper is not presented at the workshop. Awards will be presented =
to the best paper and to the best student paper at the workshop. =
Furthermore, we plan to work with a leading journal, such as JNSM, TNSM =
and IJNM, to solicit extended versions of the best papers of ManFI 2012 =
to be submitted for review.</DIV>=0A=
<DIV><BR>Workshop Co-Chairs<BR>------------------<BR>- Prof. James =
Won-Ki Hong, POSTECH, Korea<BR>- Prof. Filip De Turck, Ghent University =
- IBBT, Belgium<BR>- Dr. Yoshiaki Kiriha, NEC, Japan<BR>- Dr. Sven van =
der Meer, Ericsson LM, Ireland</DIV>=0A=
<DIV><BR>Publicity Co-Chairs<BR>-------------------<BR>- Leonidas =
Lymberopoulos, National Technical University of Athens, Greece <BR>- =
Cathryn Peoples, University of Ulster, UK </DIV>=0A=
<DIV><BR>Important dates<BR>---------------<BR>- Abstract registration =
deadline: December 14, 2011<BR>- Paper submission: December 20, =
2011<BR>- Notification of acceptance: January 31, 2012<BR>- Final =
version of papers due: February 15, 2012<BR>- Workshop date: April 16, =
2012</DIV>=0A=
<DIV><BR>For more information, please contact one of the Workshop =
Co-Chairs at <A href=3D"mailto:tpcchairs@manfi2012.org" =
target=3D_blank>tpcchairs@manfi2012.org</A></FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV></BO=
DY></HTML>
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From linda.dunbar@huawei.com  Thu Nov  3 09:54:27 2011
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Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 16:54:14 +0000
From: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>
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Thomas,

Thanks for the good draft has captured the ARP/ND scaling issues in data center really well.

A few more minor comments to the draft:


-        Section 4.1, second paragraph: should indicate the inconvenience when there is  no "VM move" involved. E.g. "One of the disadvantages is that a server can't be re-loaded with a different application in different IP subnet without IP address re-configuration on switches".


-        Section 3, second paragraph: Why do you say "servers are often pre-configured to run with a given set of IP addresses"?  Do you mean "servers often have to run with a fixed set of IP addresses depending on which access switches they are under"?



-        Section 3, second paragraph: "if each top of rack switch is placed within it is own subnet", do you mean "if all the servers in one subnet are under one ToR"?


-        Page 5, the last sentence of the  Second paragraph: "all servers on a single large L2 network": many people interpret "a single large L2 network"  as one large broadcast domain (and forget there could be many VLANs).


To be more accurate:
"management is simplified if each ToR enables all VLANs (with each VLAN  commonly mapped to one subnet) so that servers can be placed anywhere"


-        Section 1: last sentence of the first paragraph: Should  "L2 Link"  be "L2 Links"?

Linda

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thomas, <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks for the good draft has captured the ARP/ND sc=
aling issues in data center really well.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">A few more minor comments to the draft:<o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=
=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>Section 4.1, second paragraph: should indicate the =
inconvenience when there is&nbsp; no &#8220;VM move&#8221; involved. E.g. &=
#8220;One of the disadvantages is that a server can&#8217;t be re-loaded wi=
th a different application in different IP subnet without IP
 address re-configuration on switches&#8221;. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.25in"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=
=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>Section 3, second paragraph: Why do you say &#8220;=
servers are often pre-configured to run with a given set of IP addresses&#8=
221;? &nbsp;Do you mean &#8220;servers often have to run with a fixed set o=
f IP addresses depending on which access switches they
 are under&#8221;?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=
=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>Section 3, second paragraph: &#8220;if each top of =
rack switch is placed within it is own subnet&#8221;, do you mean &#8220;if=
 all the servers in one subnet are under one ToR&#8221;? &nbsp;<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.25in"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=
=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>Page 5, the last sentence of the &nbsp;Second parag=
raph: &#8220;all servers on a single large L2 network&#8221;: many people i=
nterpret &#8220;a single large L2 network&#8221; &nbsp;as one large broadca=
st domain (and forget there could be many VLANs).
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">To be more accurate:&nbsp=
; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&#8220;management is simp=
lified if each ToR enables all VLANs (with each VLAN&nbsp; commonly mapped =
to one subnet) so that servers can be placed anywhere&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.25in"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=
=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>Section 1: last sentence of the first paragraph: Sh=
ould &nbsp;&#8220;L2 Link&#8221; &nbsp;be &#8220;L2 Links&#8221;? &nbsp;<o:=
p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Linda <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
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--Boundary_(ID_YkUf0gvIpNNyK0K2HvU1bQ)--

From d3e3e3@gmail.com  Thu Nov  3 10:41:07 2011
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From: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 13:37:37 -0400
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Cc: Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>, "armd@ietf.org" <armd@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [armd] What is the proper definition for Broadcast Domain? which is used in draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00
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You might have an 802.1D network without VLANs so I would suggest, as
a general definition, something like:

"The set of all links and switches that are traversed by a broadcast
frame, that is, a frame
with the broadcast destination L2 address. This is normally confined
to a single VLAN."

Thanks,
Donald
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D
=A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd=A0=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
=A0155 Beaver Street,=A0Milford, MA 01757 USA
=A0d3e3e3@gmail.com


On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 5:23 PM, Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com> wro=
te:
> draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00 has the following definition for
> Broadcast Domain:
>
>
>
> Broadcast Domain: The set of all links and switches that are
>
> traversed in order to reach all nodes that are members of a given
>
> L2 domain. For example, when sending a broadcast packet on a
>
> VLAN, the domain would include all the links and switches that the
>
> packet traverses when broadcast traffic is sent.
>
>
>
> The phrase of =93are members of a given L2 domain=94 is a bit confusing b=
ecause
> L2 domain could have up to 4095 VLANS, with each one being its own broadc=
ast
> domain.
>
>
>
> Therefore, I think it is more accurate to say =93The set of all links and
> switches that are traversed in order to reach all nodes that are members =
of
> a given VLAN of a L2 domain.=94
>
>
>
> Any other suggestions?
>
>
>
> Linda
>
> _______________________________________________
> armd mailing list
> armd@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/armd
>
>

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The draft agenda for ARMD at the IETF-82 meeting has been posted at =
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/agenda/armd.html

ARMD Working Group - IETF 82 - Agenda
Address Resolution for Massive numbers of hosts in the Data center =
(ARMD)
Location:  101B meeting room, Taipei International Convention Center =
(TICC), Taipei, Taiwan
Time:      15-Nov-2011, 1710-1810 - Tuesday, Afternoon Session III
Chairs:    Benson Schliesser (bschlies@cisco.com) & Linda Dunbar =
(linda.dunbar@huawei.com)
Jabber:    armd@jabber.ietf.org
URL:       http://tools.ietf.org/wg/armd/

  A. Meeting Administrivia (chairs - 05 min)
      Welcome
      Mailing list and URL
      Minutes Scribe
      Jabber Scribe
      Blue Sheets

  B. Data Center Reference Architectures (Manish Karir - 15 min)
      draft-armd-datacenter-reference-arch-01

  C. Problem Statement for ARMD (Thomas Narten - 15 min)
      draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00

  D. ARMD Work Plan (chairs - 20 min)

Version 0, published 03-Nov-2011



--Apple-Mail-10-589492720
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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Courier">The draft agenda for ARMD at =
the IETF-82 meeting has been posted at&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/agenda/armd.html">http://www.ie=
tf.org/proceedings/82/agenda/armd.html</a></font></div><div><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Courier"><br></font></div><div><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Courier">ARMD Working Group - IETF 82 =
- Agenda</font></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
face=3D"Courier">Address Resolution for Massive numbers of hosts in the =
Data center (ARMD)</font></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
face=3D"Courier">Location: &nbsp;101B meeting room, Taipei International =
Convention Center (TICC), Taipei, Taiwan</font></div><div><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Courier">Time: &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;15-Nov-2011, 1710-1810 - Tuesday, Afternoon Session =
III</font></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
face=3D"Courier">Chairs: &nbsp; &nbsp;Benson Schliesser (<a =
href=3D"mailto:bschlies@cisco.com">bschlies@cisco.com</a>) &amp; Linda =
Dunbar (<a =
href=3D"mailto:linda.dunbar@huawei.com">linda.dunbar@huawei.com</a>)</font=
></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Courier">Jabber: =
&nbsp; &nbsp;<a =
href=3D"mailto:armd@jabber.ietf.org">armd@jabber.ietf.org</a></font></div>=
<div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Courier">URL: &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; <a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/wg/armd/">http://tools.ietf.org/wg/armd/</a>=
</font></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
face=3D"Courier"><br></font></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
face=3D"Courier">&nbsp; A. Meeting Administrivia (chairs - 05 =
min)</font></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
face=3D"Courier">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Welcome</font></div><div><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Courier">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Mailing =
list and URL</font></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
face=3D"Courier">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Minutes =
Scribe</font></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
face=3D"Courier">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Jabber =
Scribe</font></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
face=3D"Courier">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Blue Sheets</font></div><div><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Courier"><br></font></div><div><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Courier">&nbsp; B. Data Center =
Reference Architectures (Manish Karir - 15 min)</font></div><div><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Courier">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
draft-armd-datacenter-reference-arch-01</font></div><div><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Courier"><br></font></div><div><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Courier">&nbsp; C. Problem Statement =
for ARMD (Thomas Narten - 15 min)</font></div><div><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Courier">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00</font></div><div><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Courier"><br></font></div><div><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Courier">&nbsp; D. ARMD Work Plan =
(chairs - 20 min)</font></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
face=3D"Courier"><br></font></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
face=3D"Courier">Version 0, published =
03-Nov-2011</font></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></body></html>=

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From mkarir@merit.edu  Fri Nov  4 07:59:50 2011
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Hi Joel,

The goal of 3.4.1-3.4.4 was to discuss variations on how L2/L3 =
topologies can=20
vary from one data center to the next even with the generic data center
logical model.  These came out of various discussions at previous =
ietf/nanog
meetings and offline discussion.  Some may not make sense to us, but =
were
the perfect solution to others who needed to solve a particular problem. =
 I
think what we wanted to do with this draft is put these discussions down =
in=20
one place to make sure we were all aware of what architectural decisions
(tricks?) different people use to solve their application requirements.
Hope this helps clarify things? =20

Also, is the basic description here consistent from what you have seen=20=

in terms of data center architectures?  What do you think is missing =
here?
Are there any other particularly interesting designs that you have come =
across
that should be included here?

Thanks for your help.

-manish



On Oct 31, 2011, at 2:28 PM, Joel jaeggli wrote:

> so, I looked at it for a while...
>=20
> I'm a bit mystified by 3.4.1-3.4.4
>=20
> we've already arrived I guess at what we conclude is the ideal =
topology,
> and a particular model of mobility.
>=20
> When faced with this choice and a desire to constrain both the
> complexity and the diameter failure domain one response is to not make
> the network the arbiter of mobility, e.g. move that to provisioning or
> the application layer. the result is a lot closer to 3.4.1 than it is
> the others.
>=20
> One of he problems I have with managing a large l2 domain, =
particularly
> one constructed as an overlay is that there's effectively no upper =
bound
> appart from physics and good taste for how far it can spread, first =
they
> want across the rack, the module, then across the whole datacenter, =
then
> to the adjacent datacenter, across the country, to other cloud
> providers, etc. if you  constrain it sufficiently small that
> availability is not a design consideration (1 or 2 switches is big l2
> domain) then it doesn't become a dependency.
>=20
> Insisting that ip addresses move around with virtualized machines is =
one
> way to view the world but it not the only way. nor is constraining
> tenets to common l2 buckets the only way to segment applications from
> each other, the hosts for the virtual machines can just as well be =
(are)
> policy enforcement points.
>=20
> On 10/28/11 09:01 , Manish Karir wrote:
>>=20
>> The following draft was submitted to hopefully help focus the ARMD =
discussion around a common architecture.
>>=20
>> Comments and feedback are welcome.  The goal of the writeup really is =
to abstract away specific datacenter designs
>> each of which focuses on solving a particular application/traffic =
pattern by trying to talk about what is common between=20
>> the various designs.  Hopefully this will help some of the very =
varied discussion that has taken place in this WG so far.
>>=20
>> Thanks.
>> -manish
>>=20
>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-armd-datacenter-reference-arch-01.txt
>> -----------------------------------------
>> Filename:	 draft-karir-armd-datacenter-reference-arch
>> Revision:	 00
>> Title:		 Data Center Reference Architectures
>> Creation date:	 2011-10-24
>> WG ID:		 Individual Submission
>> Number of pages: 11
>>=20
>> Abstract:
>>  The continued growth of large-scale data centers has resulted in a
>>  wide range of architectures and designs.  Each design is tuned to
>>  address the challenges and requirements of the specific applications
>>  and workload that the data is being built for.  Each design evolves
>>  as engineering solutions are developed to workaround limitations of
>>  existing protocols, hardware, as well as software implementations.
>>=20
>>  The goal of this document is to characterize this problem space in
>>  detail in order to better understand if there is any gap in making
>>  address resolution scale in various network designs for data
>>  centers.  In particular it is our goal to peel back the various
>>  optimization and engineering solutions to develop generalized
>>  reference architectures for a data center.  We also discuss the
>>  various factors that influence design choices in developing various
>>  data center designs.
>> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=

>> _______________________________________________
>> armd mailing list
>> armd@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/armd
>>=20
>=20


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To make ARMD WG session more productive, please review the ARMD WG problem statement draft.


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Address Resolution for Massive numbers of hosts in the Data center Working Group of the IETF.



        Title           : Problem Statement for ARMD

        Author(s)       : Thomas Narten

        Filename        : draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt

        Pages           : 11

        Date            : 2011-10-17



   This document examines issues related to the massive scaling of data

   centers.  Our initial scope is relatively narrow.  Specifically, we

   focus on address resolution (ARP and ND) within the data center.





A URL for this Internet-Draft is:

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt



Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:

ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:

ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt


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<p class="MsoNormal">To make ARMD WG session more productive, please review the ARMD WG problem statement draft.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<pre>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Address Resolution for Massive numbers of hosts in the Data center Working Group of the IETF.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Title&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : Problem Statement for ARMD<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Author(s)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : Thomas Narten<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Filename&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Pages&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : 11<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Date&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : 2011-10-17<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; This document examines issues related to the massive scaling of data<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; centers.&nbsp; Our initial scope is relatively narrow.&nbsp; Specifically, we<o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>A URL for this Internet-Draft is:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:<o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
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Hi Ben and others -

We did request a timeslot to present a light-weight 'solution'.
I know 'solution' is a dirty word for the ARMD WG and we had some
offline email discussions about this. Despite that, we would like a
chance to present and let participants decide if fatigue has set in with
'problem discussions' and like to move on to solution phase.
Perhaps this will serve as a springboard for moving the ARMD WG to another =
area??


So here is the request - 20min
Nabil Bitar (VZ) to present - http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-shah-armd-arp-re=
duction-02.txt

Thanks,
himanshu




[cid:image92d8c2.gif@75e89869.95c84952]
From: armd-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:armd-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben=
son Schliesser
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 2:57 PM
To: armd@ietf.org
Subject: [armd] draft ARMD agenda for IETF-82

The draft agenda for ARMD at the IETF-82 meeting has been posted at http://=
www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/agenda/armd.html

ARMD Working Group - IETF 82 - Agenda
Address Resolution for Massive numbers of hosts in the Data center (ARMD)
Location:  101B meeting room, Taipei International Convention Center (TICC)=
, Taipei, Taiwan
Time:      15-Nov-2011, 1710-1810 - Tuesday, Afternoon Session III
Chairs:    Benson Schliesser (bschlies@cisco.com<mailto:bschlies@cisco.com>=
) & Linda Dunbar (linda.dunbar@huawei.com<mailto:linda.dunbar@huawei.com>)
Jabber:    armd@jabber.ietf.org<mailto:armd@jabber.ietf.org>
URL:       http://tools.ietf.org/wg/armd/

  A. Meeting Administrivia (chairs - 05 min)
      Welcome
      Mailing list and URL
      Minutes Scribe
      Jabber Scribe
      Blue Sheets

  B. Data Center Reference Architectures (Manish Karir - 15 min)
      draft-armd-datacenter-reference-arch-01

  C. Problem Statement for ARMD (Thomas Narten - 15 min)
      draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00

  D. ARMD Work Plan (chairs - 20 min)

Version 0, published 03-Nov-2011




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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><BODY><div class=3DWordSection1><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal><i><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Candara"=
,"sans-serif";color:#0066FF'>Hi Ben and others &#8211;<o:p></o:p></span></i=
></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><i><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"C=
andara","sans-serif";color:#0066FF'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></i></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal><i><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Candara","san=
s-serif";color:#0066FF'>We did request a timeslot to present a light-weight=
 &#8216;solution&#8217;.<o:p></o:p></span></i></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><i><=
span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Candara","sans-serif";color:#00=
66FF'>I know &#8216;solution&#8217; is a dirty word for the ARMD WG and we =
had some<o:p></o:p></span></i></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><i><span style=3D'fo=
nt-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Candara","sans-serif";color:#0066FF'>offline em=
ail discussions about this. Despite that, we would like a <o:p></o:p></span=
></i></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><i><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-famil=
y:"Candara","sans-serif";color:#0066FF'>chance to present and let participa=
nts decide if fatigue has set in with<o:p></o:p></span></i></p><p class=3DM=
soNormal><i><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Candara","sans-ser=
if";color:#0066FF'>&#8216;problem discussions&#8217; and like to move on to=
 solution phase.<o:p></o:p></span></i></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><i><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Candara","sans-serif";color:#0066FF'>Pe=
rhaps this will serve as a springboard for moving the ARMD WG to another ar=
ea??<o:p></o:p></span></i></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><i><span style=3D'font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:"Candara","sans-serif";color:#0066FF'><o:p>&nbsp;</o=
:p></span></i></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><i><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;f=
ont-family:"Candara","sans-serif";color:#0066FF'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
i></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><i><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"=
Candara","sans-serif";color:#0066FF'>So here is the request &#8211; 20min <=
o:p></o:p></span></i></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><i><span style=3D'font-size:1=
1.0pt;font-family:"Candara","sans-serif";color:#0066FF'>Nabil Bitar (VZ) to=
 present - <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-shah-armd-arp-reduction-=
02.txt">http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-shah-armd-arp-reduction-02.txt</a><o:p=
></o:p></span></i></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><i><span style=3D'font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:"Candara","sans-serif";color:#0066FF'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></i></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><i><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-fami=
ly:"Candara","sans-serif";color:#0066FF'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></i></p><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><i><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Candara=
","sans-serif";color:#0066FF'>himanshu<o:p></o:p></span></i></p><p class=3D=
MsoNormal><i><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Candara","sans-se=
rif";color:#0066FF'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></i></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><i=
><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Candara","sans-serif";color:#=
0066FF'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></i></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><i><span style=
=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Candara","sans-serif";color:#0066FF'><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></i></p><div><BR><IMG ALIGN=3D"baseline" ALT=3D"ciena l=
ogo" BORDER=3D"0" HSPACE=3D"0" SRC=3D"cid:image92d8c2.gif@75e89869.95c84952=
"><BR><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=
Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> armd-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:armd-bounces@i=
etf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Benson Schliesser<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, No=
vember 03, 2011 2:57 PM<br><b>To:</b> armd@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> [arm=
d] draft ARMD agenda for IETF-82<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'=
font-family:Courier'>The draft agenda for ARMD at the IETF-82 meeting has b=
een posted at&nbsp;<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/agenda/arm=
d.html">http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/agenda/armd.html</a></span><o:p>=
</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:Courier'>ARMD Working Group =
- IETF 82 - Agenda</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><sp=
an style=3D'font-family:Courier'>Address Resolution for Massive numbers of =
hosts in the Data center (ARMD)</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D=
MsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:Courier'>Location: &nbsp;101B meeting =
room, Taipei International Convention Center (TICC), Taipei, Taiwan</span><=
o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:Co=
urier'>Time: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;15-Nov-2011, 1710-1810 - Tuesday, Afternoo=
n Session III</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span st=
yle=3D'font-family:Courier'>Chairs: &nbsp; &nbsp;Benson Schliesser (<a href=
=3D"mailto:bschlies@cisco.com">bschlies@cisco.com</a>) &amp; Linda Dunbar (=
<a href=3D"mailto:linda.dunbar@huawei.com">linda.dunbar@huawei.com</a>)</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-famil=
y:Courier'>Jabber: &nbsp; &nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:armd@jabber.ietf.org">arm=
d@jabber.ietf.org</a></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
<span style=3D'font-family:Courier'>URL: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <a href=3D"ht=
tp://tools.ietf.org/wg/armd/">http://tools.ietf.org/wg/armd/</a></span><o:p=
></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:Courier'>&nbsp; A. Meeting =
Administrivia (chairs - 05 min)</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D=
MsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:Courier'>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Welcome<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-fa=
mily:Courier'>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Mailing list and URL</span><o:p></o:p></=
p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:Courier'>&nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; Minutes Scribe</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DM=
soNormal><span style=3D'font-family:Courier'>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Jabber Sc=
ribe</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'fo=
nt-family:Courier'>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Blue Sheets</span><o:p></o:p></p></=
div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><span style=3D'font-family:Courier'>&nbsp; B. Data Center Reference=
 Architectures (Manish Karir - 15 min)</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:Courier'>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; d=
raft-armd-datacenter-reference-arch-01</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span=
 style=3D'font-family:Courier'>&nbsp; C. Problem Statement for ARMD (Thomas=
 Narten - 15 min)</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><spa=
n style=3D'font-family:Courier'>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; draft-ietf-armd-proble=
m-statement-00</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:Co=
urier'>&nbsp; D. ARMD Work Plan (chairs - 20 min)</span><o:p></o:p></p></di=
v><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal><span style=3D'font-family:Courier'>Version 0, published 03-Nov-2011<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><=
/div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div><BR></BODY>=
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From joelja@bogus.com  Sun Nov  6 09:03:56 2011
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Subject: Re: [armd] datacenter reference architecture draft
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On 11/4/11 07:59 , Manish Karir wrote:
> 
> Hi Joel,
> 
> The goal of 3.4.1-3.4.4 was to discuss variations on how L2/L3 topologies can 
> vary from one data center to the next even with the generic data center
> logical model.  These came out of various discussions at previous ietf/nanog
> meetings and offline discussion.  Some may not make sense to us, but were
> the perfect solution to others who needed to solve a particular problem.

They make sense to someone. as I noted the authors have in the text come
to some conclusions about what model is most appropiate for deploment
within a datacenter in order to support a specific problem namely l2 v2
vm mobility.

The notion that constraining the l2 domain to a single or two tor is
only suitable for static environments is wrong. likewise that
virtualization has to necessarily drive l2 mobility, it does not.


>  I
> think what we wanted to do with this draft is put these discussions down in 
> one place to make sure we were all aware of what architectural decisions
> (tricks?) different people use to solve their application requirements.
> Hope this helps clarify things?  
>
> Also, is the basic description here consistent from what you have seen 
> in terms of data center architectures?  What do you think is missing here?
> Are there any other particularly interesting designs that you have come across
> that should be included here?
> 
> Thanks for your help.
> 
> -manish
> 
> 
> 
> On Oct 31, 2011, at 2:28 PM, Joel jaeggli wrote:
> 
>> so, I looked at it for a while...
>>
>> I'm a bit mystified by 3.4.1-3.4.4
>>
>> we've already arrived I guess at what we conclude is the ideal topology,
>> and a particular model of mobility.
>>
>> When faced with this choice and a desire to constrain both the
>> complexity and the diameter failure domain one response is to not make
>> the network the arbiter of mobility, e.g. move that to provisioning or
>> the application layer. the result is a lot closer to 3.4.1 than it is
>> the others.
>>
>> One of he problems I have with managing a large l2 domain, particularly
>> one constructed as an overlay is that there's effectively no upper bound
>> appart from physics and good taste for how far it can spread, first they
>> want across the rack, the module, then across the whole datacenter, then
>> to the adjacent datacenter, across the country, to other cloud
>> providers, etc. if you  constrain it sufficiently small that
>> availability is not a design consideration (1 or 2 switches is big l2
>> domain) then it doesn't become a dependency.
>>
>> Insisting that ip addresses move around with virtualized machines is one
>> way to view the world but it not the only way. nor is constraining
>> tenets to common l2 buckets the only way to segment applications from
>> each other, the hosts for the virtual machines can just as well be (are)
>> policy enforcement points.
>>
>> On 10/28/11 09:01 , Manish Karir wrote:
>>>
>>> The following draft was submitted to hopefully help focus the ARMD discussion around a common architecture.
>>>
>>> Comments and feedback are welcome.  The goal of the writeup really is to abstract away specific datacenter designs
>>> each of which focuses on solving a particular application/traffic pattern by trying to talk about what is common between 
>>> the various designs.  Hopefully this will help some of the very varied discussion that has taken place in this WG so far.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>> -manish
>>>
>>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-armd-datacenter-reference-arch-01.txt
>>> -----------------------------------------
>>> Filename:	 draft-karir-armd-datacenter-reference-arch
>>> Revision:	 00
>>> Title:		 Data Center Reference Architectures
>>> Creation date:	 2011-10-24
>>> WG ID:		 Individual Submission
>>> Number of pages: 11
>>>
>>> Abstract:
>>>  The continued growth of large-scale data centers has resulted in a
>>>  wide range of architectures and designs.  Each design is tuned to
>>>  address the challenges and requirements of the specific applications
>>>  and workload that the data is being built for.  Each design evolves
>>>  as engineering solutions are developed to workaround limitations of
>>>  existing protocols, hardware, as well as software implementations.
>>>
>>>  The goal of this document is to characterize this problem space in
>>>  detail in order to better understand if there is any gap in making
>>>  address resolution scale in various network designs for data
>>>  centers.  In particular it is our goal to peel back the various
>>>  optimization and engineering solutions to develop generalized
>>>  reference architectures for a data center.  We also discuss the
>>>  various factors that influence design choices in developing various
>>>  data center designs.
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> armd mailing list
>>> armd@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/armd
>>>
>>
> 
> 


From warren@kumari.net  Sun Nov  6 23:42:52 2011
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Subject: Re: [armd] What is the proper definition for Broadcast Domain? which is used in draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00
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On Nov 3, 2011, at 1:37 PM, Donald Eastlake wrote:

> You might have an 802.1D network without VLANs so I would suggest, as
> a general definition, something like:
>=20
> "The set of all links and switches that are traversed by a broadcast
> frame, that is, a frame
> with the broadcast destination L2 address. This is normally confined
> to a single VLAN."

+1
W

>=20
> Thanks,
> Donald
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>  Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
>  155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
>  d3e3e3@gmail.com
>=20
>=20
> On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 5:23 PM, Linda Dunbar =
<linda.dunbar@huawei.com> wrote:
>> draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00 has the following definition for
>> Broadcast Domain:
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Broadcast Domain: The set of all links and switches that are
>>=20
>> traversed in order to reach all nodes that are members of a given
>>=20
>> L2 domain. For example, when sending a broadcast packet on a
>>=20
>> VLAN, the domain would include all the links and switches that the
>>=20
>> packet traverses when broadcast traffic is sent.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> The phrase of =93are members of a given L2 domain=94 is a bit =
confusing because
>> L2 domain could have up to 4095 VLANS, with each one being its own =
broadcast
>> domain.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Therefore, I think it is more accurate to say =93The set of all links =
and
>> switches that are traversed in order to reach all nodes that are =
members of
>> a given VLAN of a L2 domain.=94
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Any other suggestions?
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Linda
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> armd mailing list
>> armd@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/armd
>>=20
>>=20
> _______________________________________________
> armd mailing list
> armd@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/armd
>=20


From ning.so@verizon.com  Mon Nov  7 12:30:33 2011
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All,

The problem statement looks like a fine starting point to me.


Best regards,

Ning So
Verizon Corporate Technology
(office) 972-729-7905
(Cell) 972-955-0914


From: armd-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:armd-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:armd-boun=
ces@ietf.org]<mailto:[mailto:armd-bounces@ietf.org]> On Behalf Of Linda Dun=
bar
Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 10:22 AM
To: armd@ietf.org<mailto:armd@ietf.org>
Subject: [armd] Need your action to review draft-ietf-armd-problem-statemen=
t-00.txt

To make ARMD WG session more productive, please review the ARMD WG problem =
statement draft.


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Address Resolution for Massive number=
s of hosts in the Data center Working Group of the IETF.



        Title           : Problem Statement for ARMD

        Author(s)       : Thomas Narten

        Filename        : draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt

        Pages           : 11

        Date            : 2011-10-17



   This document examines issues related to the massive scaling of data

   centers.  Our initial scope is relatively narrow.  Specifically, we

   focus on address resolution (ARP and ND) within the data center.





A URL for this Internet-Draft is:

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.tx=
t



Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:

ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/



This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:

ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt


--_000_6665BC1FEA04AB47B1F75FA641C43BC08F9B4FE8FHDP1LUMXC7V41u_
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<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vli=
nk=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'c=
olor:#1F497D'>All,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D=
'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span styl=
e=3D'color:#1F497D'>The problem statement looks like a fine starting point =
to me.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'colo=
r:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span styl=
e=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>B=
est regards,</span><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","s=
ans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Ning So</span><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Verizon Corporate Technology<o:p=
></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font=
-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>(office) 972-729-7905</span><sp=
an style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span=
 style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>=
(Cell) 972-955-0914</span><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span><=
/p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><span st=
yle=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><spa=
n style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D'bo=
rder:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans=
-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahom=
a","sans-serif"'> <a href=3D"mailto:armd-bounces@ietf.org">armd-bounces@iet=
f.org</a> <a href=3D"mailto:[mailto:armd-bounces@ietf.org]">[mailto:armd-bo=
unces@ietf.org]</a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Linda Dunbar<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday=
, November 04, 2011 10:22 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:armd@ietf.org"=
>armd@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [armd] Need your action to review dra=
ft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>To make ARMD WG =
session more productive, please review the ARMD WG problem statement draft.=
 <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><pre>A New Intern=
et-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This dr=
aft is a work item of the Address Resolution for Massive numbers of hosts i=
n the Data center Working Group of the IETF.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Title&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : Problem Statement fo=
r ARMD<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Auth=
or(s)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : Thomas Narten<o:p></o:p></pre><=
pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Filename&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt<o:p></o:p=
></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Pages&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : 11<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Date&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : 2011-10-17<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; This document examines issues related t=
o the massive scaling of data<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; centers.&nb=
sp; Our initial scope is relatively narrow.&nbsp; Specifically, we<o:p></o:=
p></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; focus on address resolution (ARP and ND) within t=
he data center.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></pre><pre>A URL for this Internet-Draft is:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a=
 href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-armd-problem-statem=
ent-00.txt">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-armd-problem-sta=
tement-00.txt</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>Internet=
-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a hre=
f=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-draft=
s/</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>This Internet-Draft=
 can be retrieved at:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/in=
ternet-drafts/draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/=
internet-drafts/draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt</a><o:p></o:p></pr=
e><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></body></html>=

--_000_6665BC1FEA04AB47B1F75FA641C43BC08F9B4FE8FHDP1LUMXC7V41u_--

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Thread-topic: [armd] What is the proper definition for Broadcast Domain?	which is used in draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00
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Subject: Re: [armd] What is the proper definition for Broadcast Domain?	which is used in draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00
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Thread-Topic: [armd] What is the proper definition for Broadcast Domain?	which is used in draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00
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Subject: Re: [armd] What is the proper definition for Broadcast Domain?	which is used in draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00
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Thread-topic: [armd] What is the proper definition for Broadcast	Domain?	which is used in draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00
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Subject: Re: [armd] What is the proper definition for Broadcast	Domain?	which is used in draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00
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Thread-topic: [armd] What is the proper definition for Broadcast Domain?	which is used in draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00
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Subject: Re: [armd] What is the proper definition for Broadcast Domain?	which is used in draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00
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From: Benson Schliesser <bschlies@cisco.com>
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Hi, Himanshu.

As I described in our offline email discussion, it is not appropriate =
for ARMD to develop solutions.  It's not "a dirty word", it is simply =
not allowed within the scope of the Ops Area.  This is an explicit =
instruction from our Area Director.  And this restriction is reflected =
in our charter.  Thus, my response (to your request) is unchanged.

Please note that this isn't a criticism of your draft.  In fact, I =
recommend that all ARMD participants read it, and I'd like to make sure =
that it finds an appropriate home for further development.

As for moving the WG forward, we (Linda and I) will be discussing this =
topic at the IETF-82 meeting.  Before then, I will post my thoughts to =
the ARMD list for discussion.  I hope that you'll provide input.

Cheers,
-Benson



On Nov 4, 2011, at 6:18 PM, Shah, Himanshu wrote:

> Hi Ben and others =96
> =20
> We did request a timeslot to present a light-weight =91solution=92.
> I know =91solution=92 is a dirty word for the ARMD WG and we had some
> offline email discussions about this. Despite that, we would like a
> chance to present and let participants decide if fatigue has set in =
with
> =91problem discussions=92 and like to move on to solution phase.
> Perhaps this will serve as a springboard for moving the ARMD WG to =
another area??
> =20
> =20
> So here is the request =96 20min
> Nabil Bitar (VZ) to present - =
http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-shah-armd-arp-reduction-02.txt
> =20
> Thanks,
> himanshu
> =20
> =20
> =20
>=20
> <image92d8c2.gif@75e89869.95c84952>
> From: armd-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:armd-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of Benson Schliesser
> Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 2:57 PM
> To: armd@ietf.org
> Subject: [armd] draft ARMD agenda for IETF-82
> =20
> The draft agenda for ARMD at the IETF-82 meeting has been posted at =
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/agenda/armd.html
> =20
> ARMD Working Group - IETF 82 - Agenda
> Address Resolution for Massive numbers of hosts in the Data center =
(ARMD)
> Location:  101B meeting room, Taipei International Convention Center =
(TICC), Taipei, Taiwan
> Time:      15-Nov-2011, 1710-1810 - Tuesday, Afternoon Session III
> Chairs:    Benson Schliesser (bschlies@cisco.com) & Linda Dunbar =
(linda.dunbar@huawei.com)
> Jabber:    armd@jabber.ietf.org
> URL:       http://tools.ietf.org/wg/armd/
> =20
>   A. Meeting Administrivia (chairs - 05 min)
>       Welcome
>       Mailing list and URL
>       Minutes Scribe
>       Jabber Scribe
>       Blue Sheets
> =20
>   B. Data Center Reference Architectures (Manish Karir - 15 min)
>       draft-armd-datacenter-reference-arch-01
> =20
>   C. Problem Statement for ARMD (Thomas Narten - 15 min)
>       draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00
> =20
>   D. ARMD Work Plan (chairs - 20 min)
> =20
> Version 0, published 03-Nov-2011
> =20
> =20
>=20
>=20


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<html><head><base href=3D"x-msg://24/"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space; "><div>Hi, Himanshu.</div><div><br></div><div>As I =
described in our offline email discussion, it is not appropriate for =
ARMD to develop solutions. &nbsp;It's not "a dirty word", it is simply =
not allowed within the scope of the Ops Area. &nbsp;This is an explicit =
instruction from our Area Director. &nbsp;And this restriction is =
reflected in our charter. &nbsp;Thus, my response (to your request) is =
unchanged.</div><div><br></div><div>Please note that this isn't a =
criticism of your draft. &nbsp;In fact, I recommend that all ARMD =
participants read it, and I'd like to make sure that it finds an =
appropriate home for further development.</div><div><br></div><div>As =
for moving the WG forward, we (Linda and I) will be discussing this =
topic at the IETF-82 meeting. &nbsp;Before then, I will post my thoughts =
to the ARMD list for discussion. &nbsp;I hope that you'll provide =
input.</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>-Benson</div><div><br></=
div><div><br></div><br><div><div>On Nov 4, 2011, at 6:18 PM, Shah, =
Himanshu wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: =
separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: =
normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; "><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; "><i><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Candara, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 102, 255); ">Hi Ben and others =
=96<o:p></o:p></span></i></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><i><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Candara, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 102, 255); "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></i></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; "><i><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Candara, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 102, 255); ">We did request a =
timeslot to present a light-weight =
=91solution=92.<o:p></o:p></span></i></div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><i><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Candara, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 102, 255); ">I know =91solution=92 is a dirty word for the ARMD =
WG and we had some<o:p></o:p></span></i></div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><i><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Candara, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 102, 255); ">offline email discussions about this. Despite that, =
we would like a<o:p></o:p></span></i></div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><i><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Candara, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 102, 255); ">chance to present and let participants decide if =
fatigue has set in with<o:p></o:p></span></i></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; "><i><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Candara, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 102, 255); ">=91problem discussions=92 =
and like to move on to solution phase.<o:p></o:p></span></i></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; "><i><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Candara, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 102, 255); ">Perhaps this will serve =
as a springboard for moving the ARMD WG to another =
area??<o:p></o:p></span></i></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><i><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Candara, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 102, 255); "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></i></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; "><i><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Candara, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 102, 255); =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></i></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><i><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Candara, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 102, 255); ">So here is the request =96 =
20min<o:p></o:p></span></i></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><i><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Candara, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 102, 255); ">Nabil Bitar (VZ) to present -<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-shah-armd-arp-reduction-02.txt" =
style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline; =
">http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-shah-armd-arp-reduction-02.txt</a><o:p></o:=
p></span></i></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; =
margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif; "><i><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Candara, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 102, 255); =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></i></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><i><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Candara, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 102, 255); ">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></i></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; "><i><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Candara, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 102, 255); =
">himanshu<o:p></o:p></span></i></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><i><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Candara, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 102, 255); "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></i></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; "><i><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Candara, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 102, 255); =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></i></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><i><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Candara, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 102, 255); =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></i></div><div><br><span>&lt;image92d8c2.gif@75e=
89869.95c84952&gt;</span><br><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; =
">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif; "><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:armd-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: blue; =
text-decoration: underline; ">armd-bounces@ietf.org</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[mailto:armd-bounces@ietf.org=
]<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b>On Behalf Of<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Benson =
Schliesser<br><b>Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Thursday, November 03, 2011 =
2:57 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a=
 href=3D"mailto:armd@ietf.org" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: =
underline; ">armd@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[armd] draft ARMD agenda =
for IETF-82<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-family:=
 Courier; ">The draft agenda for ARMD at the IETF-82 meeting has been =
posted at&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/agenda/armd.html" =
style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline; =
">http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/82/agenda/armd.html</a></span><o:p></o:p=
></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; =
margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-family: Courier; ">ARMD Working =
Group - IETF 82 - Agenda</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-family: Courier; ">Address =
Resolution for Massive numbers of hosts in the Data center =
(ARMD)</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-family:=
 Courier; ">Location: &nbsp;101B meeting room, Taipei International =
Convention Center (TICC), Taipei, =
Taiwan</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-family:=
 Courier; ">Time: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;15-Nov-2011, 1710-1810 - Tuesday, =
Afternoon Session III</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-family: Courier; ">Chairs: &nbsp; =
&nbsp;Benson Schliesser (<a href=3D"mailto:bschlies@cisco.com" =
style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: underline; =
">bschlies@cisco.com</a>) &amp; Linda Dunbar (<a =
href=3D"mailto:linda.dunbar@huawei.com" style=3D"color: blue; =
text-decoration: underline; =
">linda.dunbar@huawei.com</a>)</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-family: Courier; ">Jabber: &nbsp; =
&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:armd@jabber.ietf.org" style=3D"color: blue; =
text-decoration: underline; =
">armd@jabber.ietf.org</a></span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-family: Courier; ">URL: &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/wg/armd/" style=3D"color: blue; =
text-decoration: underline; =
">http://tools.ietf.org/wg/armd/</a></span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-family: Courier; ">&nbsp; A. =
Meeting Administrivia (chairs - 05 =
min)</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-family:=
 Courier; ">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
Welcome</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-family:=
 Courier; ">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Mailing list and =
URL</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-family:=
 Courier; ">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Minutes =
Scribe</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-family:=
 Courier; ">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Jabber =
Scribe</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-family:=
 Courier; ">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Blue =
Sheets</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-family:=
 Courier; ">&nbsp; B. Data Center Reference Architectures (Manish Karir =
- 15 min)</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
style=3D"font-family: Courier; ">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
draft-armd-datacenter-reference-arch-01</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-family: Courier; ">&nbsp; C. =
Problem Statement for ARMD (Thomas Narten - 15 =
min)</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-family:=
 Courier; ">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-family: Courier; ">&nbsp; D. ARMD =
Work Plan (chairs - 20 min)</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-family: Courier; ">Version 0, =
published 03-Nov-2011</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; =
margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><br></div></span><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></blockquote></div><br></body></html>=

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Subject: Re: [armd] What is the proper definition for Broadcast Domain?	which is used in draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00
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I think it is worthwhile to mention ARP proxy term and its ambiguity in =
the problem statement for the following reasons.=20
1. It is ARP related and is a common term people always talk about.
2. It has different interpretations which affects ARP performance =
differently.

"Proxy ARP" appears in problem statement once and it takes the second =
interpretation in Linda's email rather than that from RFC1027.=20

Yizhou

-----Original Message-----
From: armd-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:armd-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
Linda Dunbar
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2011 11:40 PM
To: Xuxiaohu; thomas.morin@orange.com; armd@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [armd] What is the proper definition for Broadcast Domain? =
which is used in draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00


The term =E2=80=9CARP Proxy=E2=80=9D is a loaded phrase, with different =
interpretations depending on vendors or environments.  RFC1027=E2=80=99s =
ARP Proxy is for Gateway to return its own MAC address on behalf of =
target host, whereas some ARP Proxy approach is for ToR to intercept ARP =
requests and return target hosts=E2=80=99 MAC if it is present in =
ToR=E2=80=99s ARP cache.

[RFC1027] was developed prior to the concepts of VLANs. It is for =
gateway to return its own MAC when the requesting host doesn't have =
subnet supported.=20

Unknown DA flooding is a pure layer 2 approach for a data frame to reach =
its destination when the switch doesn't have the DA in its FDB. Let's =
not mix it with address resolution.=20


Linda=20


> -----Original Message-----
> From: armd-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:armd-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of
> Xuxiaohu
> Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2011 3:58 AM
> To: thomas.morin@orange.com; armd@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [armd] What is the proper definition for Broadcast =
Domain?
> which is used in draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00
>=20
> Hi Thomas,
>=20
> > -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6-----
> > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: armd-bounces@ietf.org =
[mailto:armd-bounces@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8
> > thomas.morin@orange.com
> > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: =
2011=E5=B9=B411=E6=9C=888=E6=97=A5 16:47
> > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: armd@ietf.org
> > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [armd] What is the proper definition for =
Broadcast Domain?
> which is
> > used in draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > In the context of ARMD, we could also find it useful to distinguish
> the
> > broadcast domain (as defined below) and the "ARP/ND domain", which =
we
> > could define as the set of links and devices that are traversed by =
an
> > ARP/ND request and/or its reply. Those are distinct things, =
generally
> > speaking: if for instance ARP proxying is used, the former will be a
> > strict superset of the latter.
>=20
> If the ARP proxy [RFC 1027] is used, both the unknown unicast =
broadcast
> domain and the ARP broadcast domain are confined. In addition, the MAC
> learning domain is also confined. For more details, please see Virtual
> Subnet (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-virtual-subnet-06).
>=20
> Of course, if what you mean is ARP cache by saying ARP proxying (see
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-shah-armd-arp-reduction-02), the ARP
> broadcast domain is confined only when there does exist an ARP cache
> entry for the requested host.
>=20
> In a word, the ARP proxy return its own MAC address while the ARP =
cache
> return the real MAC of the requested host.
>=20
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
>=20
> > Then draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement could be revised to talks
> about
> > ARP/ND domain in places where it would be more precise than =
broadcast
> > domain.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > -Thomas
> >
> >
> > Donald Eastlake:
> > > You might have an 802.1D network without VLANs so I would suggest,
> as
> > > a general definition, something like:
> > >
> > > "The set of all links and switches that are traversed by a
> broadcast
> > > frame, that is, a frame
> > > with the broadcast destination L2 address. This is normally
> confined
> > > to a single VLAN."
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Donald
> > > =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > >   Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
> > >   155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
> > >   d3e3e3@gmail.com
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 5:23 PM, Linda
> Dunbar<linda.dunbar@huawei.com>
> > wrote:
> > >> draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00 has the following definition
> for
> > >> Broadcast Domain:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Broadcast Domain: The set of all links and switches that are
> > >>
> > >> traversed in order to reach all nodes that are members of a given
> > >>
> > >> L2 domain. For example, when sending a broadcast packet on a
> > >>
> > >> VLAN, the domain would include all the links and switches that =
the
> > >>
> > >> packet traverses when broadcast traffic is sent.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> The phrase of =E2=80=9Care members of a given L2 domain=E2=80=9D =
is a bit
> confusing
> > because
> > >> L2 domain could have up to 4095 VLANS, with each one being its =
own
> > broadcast
> > >> domain.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Therefore, I think it is more accurate to say =E2=80=9CThe set of =
all
> links and
> > >> switches that are traversed in order to reach all nodes that are
> members of
> > >> a given VLAN of a L2 domain.=E2=80=9D
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Any other suggestions?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Linda
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> armd mailing list
> > >> armd@ietf.org
> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/armd
> > >>
> > >>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > armd mailing list
> > > armd@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/armd
> > _______________________________________________
> > armd mailing list
> > armd@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/armd
> _______________________________________________
> armd mailing list
> armd@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/armd
_______________________________________________
armd mailing list
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Subject: Re: [armd] What is the proper definition for Broadcast	Domain?	which is used in draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00
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Thomas:=20

Are you arguing for both definitions (Donald's) and ND/ARP domain or =
both?
I'm just a bit confused by your request.

Sue=20
-----Original Message-----
From: armd-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:armd-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of =
thomas.morin@orange.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2011 9:45 AM
To: xuxiaohu@huawei.com
Cc: armd@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [armd] What is the proper definition for Broadcast Domain? =
which is used in draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00

Hi Xuxiaohu,

Yes, you are correct that we may have different scopes for broadcast=20
traffic, unknown unicast, ARP/ND request, or even multicast... I would=20
add that for some of these, the scope is not even constant over time=20
(e.g. unknown unicast is not unknown for every device, and not for =
ever).

My point was that, even though Donald's definition of a broadcast domain =

looks very reasonable to me, it strikes me that the "domain" which=20
draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement should talk about is not this domain,=20
but the domain in which ARP or ND spreads.

-Thomas


2011-11-08, Xuxiaohu:
>Thomas:
>> In the context of ARMD, we could also find it useful to distinguish =
the
>> broadcast domain (as defined below) and the "ARP/ND domain", which we
>> could define as the set of links and devices that are traversed by an
>> ARP/ND request and/or its reply. Those are distinct things, generally
>> speaking: if for instance ARP proxying is used, the former will be a
>> strict superset of the latter.
>
> If the ARP proxy [RFC 1027] is used, both the unknown unicast
> broadcast domain and the ARP broadcast domain are confined.In =
addition,
> the MAC learning domain is also confined. For more details, please see
> Virtual Subnet =
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-virtual-subnet-06).
>
> Of course, if what you mean is ARP cache by saying ARP proxying (see
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-shah-armd-arp-reduction-02), the ARP
> broadcast domain is confined only when there does exist an ARP cache
> entry for the requested host.
>
> In a word, the ARP proxy return its own MAC address while the ARP =
cache
> return the real MAC of the requested host.
>
 >
>> Donald Eastlake:
>>> You might have an 802.1D network without VLANs so I would suggest, =
as
>>> a general definition, something like:
>>>
>>> "The set of all links and switches that are traversed by a broadcast
>>> frame, that is, a frame
>>> with the broadcast destination L2 address. This is normally confined
>>> to a single VLAN."
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Donald
>>> =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>>    Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
>>>    155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
>>>    d3e3e3@gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 5:23 PM, Linda =
Dunbar<linda.dunbar@huawei.com>
>> wrote:
>>>> draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00 has the following definition =
for
>>>> Broadcast Domain:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Broadcast Domain: The set of all links and switches that are
>>>>
>>>> traversed in order to reach all nodes that are members of a given
>>>>
>>>> L2 domain. For example, when sending a broadcast packet on a
>>>>
>>>> VLAN, the domain would include all the links and switches that the
>>>>
>>>> packet traverses when broadcast traffic is sent.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The phrase of =E2=80=9Care members of a given L2 domain=E2=80=9D is =
a bit confusing
>> because
>>>> L2 domain could have up to 4095 VLANS, with each one being its own
>> broadcast
>>>> domain.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Therefore, I think it is more accurate to say =E2=80=9CThe set of =
all links and
>>>> switches that are traversed in order to reach all nodes that are =
members of
>>>> a given VLAN of a L2 domain.=E2=80=9D
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Any other suggestions?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Linda
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> armd mailing list
>>>> armd@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/armd
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> armd mailing list
>>> armd@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/armd
>> _______________________________________________
>> armd mailing list
>> armd@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/armd
_______________________________________________
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From pedro.r.marques@gmail.com  Wed Nov  9 11:52:02 2011
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Subject: Re: [armd] Need your action to review draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt
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Linda,
I'd like to point out that the problem does not need to be solved if
only IP connectivity is required. This I-D:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-marques-l3vpn-end-system-02 describes
a solution in which address resolution is not required irrespective of
the location of the traffic destination. Simply put, traffic can be
routed at each hop.

As per previous threads in this list, the concept of subnet which is
of no practical usefulness in this space. Since VMs can be randomly
distributed across the network the subnet does not provide any
information aggregation value. Thus there is no need to do address
resolution.

  Pedro.

On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 11:31 AM, Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com> wro=
te:
> For those of you who touch upon Data Center networking or server
> virtualization, be it Overlay, VPN4DC, or Application/Software driven
> Controller for Data Center, Address Resolution is something Data Center
> Gateways =A0will encounter because hosts/applications in data centers do
> communicate with peers which are not in the same Overlay, outside the VPN
> domain, or from general public. ARMD has published its WG problem stateme=
nt
> draft. Your comments and suggestions are appreciated (send to
> armd@ietf.org).
>
>
>
> Thanks, Linda Dunbar
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----------
>
>
>
>
>
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories. This draft is a work item of the Address Resolution for Mass=
ive
> numbers of hosts in the Data center Working Group of the IETF.
>
>
>
> =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Title=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 : Problem State=
ment for ARMD
>
> =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Author(s)=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 : Thomas Narten
>
> =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Filename=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 : draft-ietf-armd-pro=
blem-statement-00.txt
>
> =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Pages=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 : 11
>
> =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Date=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 : 2011-10-17
>
>
>
> =A0=A0 This document examines issues related to the massive scaling of da=
ta
>
> =A0=A0 centers.=A0 Our initial scope is relatively narrow.=A0 Specificall=
y, we
>
> =A0=A0 focus on address resolution (ARP and ND) within the data center.
>
>
>
>
>
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.=
txt
>
>
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
>
>
> This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
>
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.t=
xt
>
>

From linda.dunbar@huawei.com  Wed Nov  9 12:12:26 2011
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Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 20:12:08 +0000
From: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [armd] Need your action to review draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt
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Pedro,=20

You are absolutely right that there is no ARP/ND scaling issue if IP can be=
 extended to hosts. Even if IP can be extended to Access switches, there is=
 not much ARP/ND issues.=20
The draft lists down several common data center network designs, and states=
 that some of the designs don't have ARP/ND scaling issues (but may have ot=
her issues for data centers).=20
That is why I encourage people to read the draft and provides comments.=20

Linda=20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pedro Marques [mailto:pedro.r.marques@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 1:52 PM
> To: Linda Dunbar
> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org; L3VPN WG mailing list; sdnp@lucidvision.com;
> armd@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: Need your action to review draft-ietf-armd-problem-
> statement-00.txt
>=20
> Linda,
> I'd like to point out that the problem does not need to be solved if
> only IP connectivity is required. This I-D:
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-marques-l3vpn-end-system-02 describes
> a solution in which address resolution is not required irrespective of
> the location of the traffic destination. Simply put, traffic can be
> routed at each hop.
>=20
> As per previous threads in this list, the concept of subnet which is
> of no practical usefulness in this space. Since VMs can be randomly
> distributed across the network the subnet does not provide any
> information aggregation value. Thus there is no need to do address
> resolution.
>=20
>   Pedro.
>=20
> On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 11:31 AM, Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>
> wrote:
> > For those of you who touch upon Data Center networking or server
> > virtualization, be it Overlay, VPN4DC, or Application/Software driven
> > Controller for Data Center, Address Resolution is something Data
> Center
> > Gateways =A0will encounter because hosts/applications in data centers
> do
> > communicate with peers which are not in the same Overlay, outside the
> VPN
> > domain, or from general public. ARMD has published its WG problem
> statement
> > draft. Your comments and suggestions are appreciated (send to
> > armd@ietf.org).
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks, Linda Dunbar
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> > directories. This draft is a work item of the Address Resolution for
> Massive
> > numbers of hosts in the Data center Working Group of the IETF.
> >
> >
> >
> > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Title=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 : Problem Sta=
tement for ARMD
> >
> > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Author(s)=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 : Thomas Narten
> >
> > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Filename=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 : draft-ietf-armd-p=
roblem-statement-00.txt
> >
> > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Pages=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 : 11
> >
> > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Date=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 : 2011-10-1=
7
> >
> >
> >
> > =A0=A0 This document examines issues related to the massive scaling of
> data
> >
> > =A0=A0 centers.=A0 Our initial scope is relatively narrow.=A0 Specifica=
lly,
> we
> >
> > =A0=A0 focus on address resolution (ARP and ND) within the data center.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> >
> > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-armd-problem-
> statement-00.txt
> >
> >
> >
> > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> >
> > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> >
> >
> >
> > This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
> >
> > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-
> 00.txt
> >
> >

From skh@ndzh.com  Wed Nov  9 12:27:48 2011
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Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org, sdnp@lucidvision.com, 'L3VPN WG mailing list' <l3vpn@ietf.org>, armd@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [armd] Need your action to review	draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt
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Pedro:

Your review of the draft would be especially helpful in the L3 only =
design.=20

Sue=20

-----Original Message-----
From: armd-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:armd-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Linda Dunbar
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 3:12 PM
To: Pedro Marques
Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org; sdnp@lucidvision.com; L3VPN WG mailing list;
armd@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [armd] Need your action to review
draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt

Pedro,=20

You are absolutely right that there is no ARP/ND scaling issue if IP can =
be
extended to hosts. Even if IP can be extended to Access switches, there =
is
not much ARP/ND issues.=20
The draft lists down several common data center network designs, and =
states
that some of the designs don't have ARP/ND scaling issues (but may have
other issues for data centers).=20
That is why I encourage people to read the draft and provides comments.=20

Linda=20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pedro Marques [mailto:pedro.r.marques@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 1:52 PM
> To: Linda Dunbar
> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org; L3VPN WG mailing list; sdnp@lucidvision.com;
> armd@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: Need your action to review draft-ietf-armd-problem-
> statement-00.txt
>=20
> Linda,
> I'd like to point out that the problem does not need to be solved if
> only IP connectivity is required. This I-D:
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-marques-l3vpn-end-system-02 describes
> a solution in which address resolution is not required irrespective of
> the location of the traffic destination. Simply put, traffic can be
> routed at each hop.
>=20
> As per previous threads in this list, the concept of subnet which is
> of no practical usefulness in this space. Since VMs can be randomly
> distributed across the network the subnet does not provide any
> information aggregation value. Thus there is no need to do address
> resolution.
>=20
>   Pedro.
>=20
> On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 11:31 AM, Linda Dunbar =
<linda.dunbar@huawei.com>
> wrote:
> > For those of you who touch upon Data Center networking or server
> > virtualization, be it Overlay, VPN4DC, or Application/Software =
driven
> > Controller for Data Center, Address Resolution is something Data
> Center
> > Gateways =A0will encounter because hosts/applications in data =
centers
> do
> > communicate with peers which are not in the same Overlay, outside =
the
> VPN
> > domain, or from general public. ARMD has published its WG problem
> statement
> > draft. Your comments and suggestions are appreciated (send to
> > armd@ietf.org).
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks, Linda Dunbar
> >
> >
> >
> > =
---------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> > directories. This draft is a work item of the Address Resolution for
> Massive
> > numbers of hosts in the Data center Working Group of the IETF.
> >
> >
> >
> > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Title=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 : Problem =
Statement for ARMD
> >
> > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Author(s)=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 : Thomas Narten
> >
> > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Filename=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 : =
draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt
> >
> > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Pages=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 : 11
> >
> > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Date=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 : =
2011-10-17
> >
> >
> >
> > =A0=A0 This document examines issues related to the massive scaling =
of
> data
> >
> > =A0=A0 centers.=A0 Our initial scope is relatively narrow.=A0 =
Specifically,
> we
> >
> > =A0=A0 focus on address resolution (ARP and ND) within the data =
center.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> >
> > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-armd-problem-
> statement-00.txt
> >
> >
> >
> > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> >
> > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> >
> >
> >
> > This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
> >
> > =
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-
> 00.txt
> >
> >
_______________________________________________
armd mailing list
armd@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/armd


From pedro.r.marques@gmail.com  Wed Nov  9 14:20:56 2011
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From: Pedro Marques <pedro.r.marques@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [armd] Need your action to review draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt
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Linda,
Please see inline.

On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 12:12 PM, Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com> wrote:
> Pedro,
>
> You are absolutely right that there is no ARP/ND scaling issue if IP can be extended to hosts. Even if IP can be extended to Access switches, there is not much ARP/ND issues.

The draft is a bit unclear in terms of its assumptions regarding the
connectivity of the VMs. It does state that the VMs typically have
their own IP and mac addresses but doesn't mention that these are
typically also associated with different VLANs.

There are multiple proposals (e.g. VXLAN) in which these VLANs are
data-center wide. Thus if the VM sees a LAN adjacency to its "subnet"
there is an ARP/ND issue to solve. VXLAN for instance assumes that ARP
requests will be broadcasted using IP multicast groups per VLAN.

You may want to characterize the several 'categories' of proposals
that satisfy the requirements of VM mobility and closed user group
isolation.

For example:

L2 approaches: (e.g. VXLAN)
  These tend towards creating a data-center wide broadcast domain. The
broadcast domain can then be used to send ARP/ND requests.

Routed L2/L3 approaches (e.g. EVPN):
  Present an L2 interface to the VM but transform it to a routed
approach in a network element and advertise mac (optionally) + ip host
prefixes from the network elements. An important sub category here is
whether these solutions then assume multicast capability or not in the
underlying network.

Host based approaches.
  These can present either an L2 or L3 "service" and assume or not the
presence of an underlying multicast service on the part of the
underlying "fabric" network.

Map service based approaches:
  Use a query based mechanism rather than a "push" based mechanism
like routing to distributed the overlay network information.

Each of these has its own way to address ARP/ND related issues. If you
your intent is to document the possibilities there is plenty of
options to choose from. :-)

  Pedro.

From bschlies@cisco.com  Wed Nov  9 20:00:16 2011
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Subject: [armd] ARMD Status and Work Plan
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ARMD Participants -

Linda and I have been discussing ARMD's progress against our charter and =
planning next steps for the WG, and we would like your feedback.  This =
topic will be discussed at the upcoming IETF-82 meeting in Taipei.  But =
even if you plan to attend in person, please provide feedback on the =
mailing list so that everybody can join the discussion. We apologize for =
the length of this message, but hope that you will take the time to =
respond to each of the questions below.

1. CURRENT STATUS OF MILESTONES

According to our charter we have several milestones that are due. =
Specifically, we are overdue to publish a Problem Statement and we are =
currently due to publish documents on "statistics collection and =
behavior analysis", a "survey of existing implementations", and a =
"survey of security".

ARMD has a draft for the problem statement =
(draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00). Also, there is an individual =
draft discussing statistics (draft-karir-armd-statistics-01) and there =
is an independent draft on datacenter architecture =
(draft-armd-datacenter-reference-arch-00). Collectively, these drafts =
would seem to satisfy some of our milestones. As a WG we need to decide =
on next steps for these documents.

As for the other milestones that are not addressed by the existing =
drafts, we must decide how to proceed. There is a comment, about =
variations of ARP / ND implementations, in =
draft-karir-armd-statistics-01 which might apply to the "survey of =
existing implementations" milestone. But we do not have an actual survey =
per se, with details of the various ARP and ND implementations.  Also, =
to my knowledge we have no contributions that might apply to the "survey =
of security" milestone. The WG needs to decide how to proceed with these =
milestones.

 - Does the WG feel that our Problem Statement is complete?
 - Does the WG feel that draft-karir-armd-statistics and/or =
draft-armd-datacenter-reference-arch should be made WG documents, =
incorporated in the Problem Statement, and/or need more work?
 - Does the WG have interest in pursuing further work on the "survey of =
existing implementations" and "survey of security" milestones?

2. NEXT STEPS

In addition to the milestones mentioned above, our charter includes two =
milestones due in March 2012. These are to document ARMD's =
"recommendations" and perform a "gap analysis".

Thus far, the chairs have identified two types of recommendation that =
ARMD might consider making. The first is an ARP and/or ND =
"implementation" BCP, with recommendations for configuring or tuning ARP =
and/or ND. This would be much easier if we have a completed ARP/ND =
implementation survey. The second is an operational "how to scale" =
recommendation. As an illustrative example, this might suggest such =
options as A) replace ARP/ND with static entries, B) use L2/L3 =
segmentation to fit within specified constraints (smaller L2 domains, L3 =
to the access layer, etc), and/or C) deploy ARP/ND proxy functions in =
the network. This example isn't meant as a proposal, merely as an =
illustration for further discussion. The WG needs to decide what =
recommendations to make.

As an aside, I would like to point out that ARP Proxy isn't very well =
defined. There are multiple variations of ARP Proxy with different =
levels of documentation. As examples of different ARP Proxy behaviors, =
please see RFC1027 and draft-shah-armd-arp-reduction-02. I also =
recommend becoming familiar with draft-hu-trill-rbridge-esadi and =
draft-dunbar-trill-directory-assisted-edge, as well as OpenFlow, the =
NVO3 effort, etc. If the WG recommends ARP Proxy as described above, =
then we may need to survey existing ARP and/or ND Proxy behaviors.

Once we have documented our recommendations, the WG will perform a gap =
analysis, comparing our recommendations (and the existing solutions) =
versus the issues identified by our Problem Statement. If there are =
gaps, then the WG should develop a Requirements document, as input to =
future work. The development of a solution, based on those requirements, =
might happen in a different WG or by a re-chartered ARMD.

 - Does the WG have interest in developing an "ARP/ND implementation" =
recommendation, a "how to scale" recommendation, and/or some other =
recommendation(s)?
 - Does the WG feel that there are gaps between existing solutions and =
the issues described by our Problem Statement? If so, what are the =
requirements for a solution to the Problem Statement?

3. OTHER TOPICS TO CONSIDER

Considering the ARMD charter as a whole, we are not limited to =
discussion of ARP and ND, and we may consider other Address Resolution =
mechanisms that are applicable to massive datacenters.

For example, the work taking place under the name "NVO3" (possibly =
including NVGRE, VXLAN, etc) is an example of an overlay approach that =
ARMD might consider. Specifically, ARMD might consider issues related to =
"inter-layer" address resolution (mapping "inside" addresses to =
"outside" addresses). And/or ARMD might consider issues related to =
traditional ARP/ND address resolution within an overlay, etc. (Note that =
ARMD cannot develop overlay solutions, per our current charter, but it =
may be appropriate to investigate the operational issues associated with =
them.)

As an additional example, ARMD might consider operational issues and/or =
requirements related to address resolution in TRILL campuses, OpenFlow =
networks, etc. The chairs have not specifically identified these as =
topics for ARMD, but rather we hope the WG will decide whether they are =
relevant or whether our current scope is adequate.

 - Does the WG feel that our current Problem Statement scope should =
include additional topics, such as those described above and/or others?

Thanks for taking the time to read this message. We look forward to =
receiving feedback from all ARMD participants. And we look forward to =
seeing some of you in Taipei.

Cheers,
-Benson & Linda


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From narten@us.ibm.com  Thu Nov 10 07:49:49 2011
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To: Pedro Marques <pedro.r.marques@gmail.com>
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Comments: In-reply-to Pedro Marques <pedro.r.marques@gmail.com> message dated "Wed, 09 Nov 2011 14:20:53 -0800."
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 10:49:36 -0500
From: Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>
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Subject: Re: [armd] Need your action to review draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt
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Hi Pedro.

> The draft is a bit unclear in terms of its assumptions regarding the
> connectivity of the VMs. It does state that the VMs typically have
> their own IP and mac addresses but doesn't mention that these are
> typically also associated with different VLANs.

Fair enough. I'll look at clarifying this in the next version (though
I'm not sure right off how it changes anything).

> There are multiple proposals (e.g. VXLAN) in which these VLANs are
> data-center wide. Thus if the VM sees a LAN adjacency to its "subnet"
> there is an ARP/ND issue to solve. VXLAN for instance assumes that ARP
> requests will be broadcasted using IP multicast groups per VLAN.

I don't think it is quite right to say that VXLAN uses "data center
wide VLANs".  VXLAN (and overlay approaches in general) use their own
instance identifier space. It is conceptually like a VLAN (in that it
groups together related servers). But it is not the same as a VLAN,
and using that terminology in the context of VXLAN is probably going
to confuse folk.

> You may want to characterize the several 'categories' of proposals
> that satisfy the requirements of VM mobility and closed user group
> isolation.

> For example:

> L2 approaches: (e.g. VXLAN)
>   These tend towards creating a data-center wide broadcast domain. The
> broadcast domain can then be used to send ARP/ND requests.

Correct. But there are also optimizations that can be done (like Proxy
ARP) to limit the need to actually broadcast.

> Routed L2/L3 approaches (e.g. EVPN):

>   Present an L2 interface to the VM but transform it to a routed
> approach in a network element and advertise mac (optionally) + ip host
> prefixes from the network elements. An important sub category here is
> whether these solutions then assume multicast capability or not in the
> underlying network.

And how is VXLAN not a routed approach? It presents an L2 interface to
the VM, but everything is routed at L3 from the switch on out.

The main differences I see between EVPN and overlay approachs like
VXLAN are:

1) VXLAN goes all the way to the hypervisor. It's only the
VM->Hypervisor "link" that is L2.

2) VXLAN uses a different control plane (e.g., IEEE 802 approach)
whereas EVPN appears to be BGP based. 

> Host based approaches.
>   These can present either an L2 or L3 "service" and assume or not the
> presence of an underlying multicast service on the part of the
> underlying "fabric" network.

Not sure what you mean here. Is this where the Host (VM) itself is
aware of the service and interacts directly with it? And wouldn't that
require host changes, which IMO is pretty much a non-starter?

> Map service based approaches:
>   Use a query based mechanism rather than a "push" based mechanism
> like routing to distributed the overlay network information.

> Each of these has its own way to address ARP/ND related issues. If you
> your intent is to document the possibilities there is plenty of
> options to choose from. :-)

Indeed!

Thomas


From pedro.r.marques@gmail.com  Thu Nov 10 08:59:39 2011
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Subject: Re: [armd] Need your action to review draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt
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Thomas,

On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 7:49 AM, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> wrote:

>> There are multiple proposals (e.g. VXLAN) in which these VLANs are
>> data-center wide. Thus if the VM sees a LAN adjacency to its "subnet"
>> there is an ARP/ND issue to solve. VXLAN for instance assumes that ARP
>> requests will be broadcasted using IP multicast groups per VLAN.
>
> I don't think it is quite right to say that VXLAN uses "data center
> wide VLANs". =A0VXLAN (and overlay approaches in general) use their own
> instance identifier space. It is conceptually like a VLAN (in that it
> groups together related servers). But it is not the same as a VLAN,
> and using that terminology in the context of VXLAN is probably going
> to confuse folk.

The proposal uses a data-center wide broadcast domain. In common
terminology people often refer to a broadcast domain as a VLAN.

>
>> You may want to characterize the several 'categories' of proposals
>> that satisfy the requirements of VM mobility and closed user group
>> isolation.
>
>> For example:
>
>> L2 approaches: (e.g. VXLAN)
>> =A0 These tend towards creating a data-center wide broadcast domain. The
>> broadcast domain can then be used to send ARP/ND requests.
>
> Correct. But there are also optimizations that can be done (like Proxy
> ARP) to limit the need to actually broadcast.

It depends on what action is taken when a VM moves. In what i'm
labeling as an "L2 based" approach a VM move is handled by generating
a gratuitous ARP reply to update all ARP caches and learning tables.
If that is the VM move update mechanism proxy ARP cannot be used.

>
>> Routed L2/L3 approaches (e.g. EVPN):
>
>> =A0 Present an L2 interface to the VM but transform it to a routed
>> approach in a network element and advertise mac (optionally) + ip host
>> prefixes from the network elements. An important sub category here is
>> whether these solutions then assume multicast capability or not in the
>> underlying network.
>
> And how is VXLAN not a routed approach? It presents an L2 interface to
> the VM, but everything is routed at L3 from the switch on out.

The addresses of the overlay network are learned by the egress
switches and it depends on a broadcast domain. It sees the underlying
"fabric" network as a LAN.
This is in contrast with approach in which the information regarding
the overlay network is advertised via routing protocols (your get your
choice of ISIS variants and BGP).

>
> The main differences I see between EVPN and overlay approachs like
> VXLAN are:
>
> 1) VXLAN goes all the way to the hypervisor. It's only the
> VM->Hypervisor "link" that is L2.
>
> 2) VXLAN uses a different control plane (e.g., IEEE 802 approach)
> whereas EVPN appears to be BGP based.

VXLAN treats the underlying DC fabric network as a LAN. And uses
learning on the data plane.

EVPN only "learns" on the edge facing interface.

This has consequences on VM moves for instance. In the second case the
move can be done as a "route advertisement". It also has consequences
on the operational state. With a learning based approach the actual
state of the network is just valid at that precise moment. Which makes
it very difficult to understand whether the state is correct or not.
That is common with all data-driven approaches.


>
>> Host based approaches.
>> =A0 These can present either an L2 or L3 "service" and assume or not the
>> presence of an underlying multicast service on the part of the
>> underlying "fabric" network.
>
> Not sure what you mean here. Is this where the Host (VM) itself is
> aware of the service and interacts directly with it? And wouldn't that
> require host changes, which IMO is pretty much a non-starter?

The Host OS / hypervisor. Not the Guest VM. It is a common practice
that the network stack of the host OS is a special purpose stack (e.g.
vSwitch style approaches). The network stack is not the only aspect of
the VM hosting software that is modified to support this class of
applications.

  Pedro.

From bschlies@cisco.com  Thu Nov 10 11:02:05 2011
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From: Benson Schliesser <bschlies@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [armd] ARMD Status and Work Plan
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For those of you that might ignore my message as "too long; didn't =
read", here is a shorter version just listing the questions:

- Does the WG feel that our Problem Statement is complete?

- Does the WG feel that draft-karir-armd-statistics and/or =
draft-armd-datacenter-reference-arch should be made WG documents, =
incorporated in the Problem Statement, and/or need more work?

- Does the WG have interest in pursuing further work on the "survey of =
existing implementations" and "survey of security" milestones?

- Does the WG have interest in developing an "ARP/ND implementation" =
recommendation, a "how to scale" recommendation, and/or some other =
recommendation(s)?

- Does the WG feel that there are gaps between existing solutions and =
the issues described by our Problem Statement? If so, what are the =
requirements for a solution to the Problem Statement?

- Does the WG feel that our current Problem Statement scope should =
include additional topics, such as those described [in section 3 below] =
and/or others?

Cheers,
-Benson


On Nov 9, 2011, at 10:00 PM, Benson Schliesser wrote:

> ARMD Participants -
>=20
> Linda and I have been discussing ARMD's progress against our charter =
and planning next steps for the WG, and we would like your feedback.  =
This topic will be discussed at the upcoming IETF-82 meeting in Taipei.  =
But even if you plan to attend in person, please provide feedback on the =
mailing list so that everybody can join the discussion. We apologize for =
the length of this message, but hope that you will take the time to =
respond to each of the questions below.
>=20
> 1. CURRENT STATUS OF MILESTONES
>=20
> According to our charter we have several milestones that are due. =
Specifically, we are overdue to publish a Problem Statement and we are =
currently due to publish documents on "statistics collection and =
behavior analysis", a "survey of existing implementations", and a =
"survey of security".
>=20
> ARMD has a draft for the problem statement =
(draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00). Also, there is an individual =
draft discussing statistics (draft-karir-armd-statistics-01) and there =
is an independent draft on datacenter architecture =
(draft-armd-datacenter-reference-arch-00). Collectively, these drafts =
would seem to satisfy some of our milestones. As a WG we need to decide =
on next steps for these documents.
>=20
> As for the other milestones that are not addressed by the existing =
drafts, we must decide how to proceed. There is a comment, about =
variations of ARP / ND implementations, in =
draft-karir-armd-statistics-01 which might apply to the "survey of =
existing implementations" milestone. But we do not have an actual survey =
per se, with details of the various ARP and ND implementations.  Also, =
to my knowledge we have no contributions that might apply to the "survey =
of security" milestone. The WG needs to decide how to proceed with these =
milestones.
>=20
> - Does the WG feel that our Problem Statement is complete?
> - Does the WG feel that draft-karir-armd-statistics and/or =
draft-armd-datacenter-reference-arch should be made WG documents, =
incorporated in the Problem Statement, and/or need more work?
> - Does the WG have interest in pursuing further work on the "survey of =
existing implementations" and "survey of security" milestones?
>=20
> 2. NEXT STEPS
>=20
> In addition to the milestones mentioned above, our charter includes =
two milestones due in March 2012. These are to document ARMD's =
"recommendations" and perform a "gap analysis".
>=20
> Thus far, the chairs have identified two types of recommendation that =
ARMD might consider making. The first is an ARP and/or ND =
"implementation" BCP, with recommendations for configuring or tuning ARP =
and/or ND. This would be much easier if we have a completed ARP/ND =
implementation survey. The second is an operational "how to scale" =
recommendation. As an illustrative example, this might suggest such =
options as A) replace ARP/ND with static entries, B) use L2/L3 =
segmentation to fit within specified constraints (smaller L2 domains, L3 =
to the access layer, etc), and/or C) deploy ARP/ND proxy functions in =
the network. This example isn't meant as a proposal, merely as an =
illustration for further discussion. The WG needs to decide what =
recommendations to make.
>=20
> As an aside, I would like to point out that ARP Proxy isn't very well =
defined. There are multiple variations of ARP Proxy with different =
levels of documentation. As examples of different ARP Proxy behaviors, =
please see RFC1027 and draft-shah-armd-arp-reduction-02. I also =
recommend becoming familiar with draft-hu-trill-rbridge-esadi and =
draft-dunbar-trill-directory-assisted-edge, as well as OpenFlow, the =
NVO3 effort, etc. If the WG recommends ARP Proxy as described above, =
then we may need to survey existing ARP and/or ND Proxy behaviors.
>=20
> Once we have documented our recommendations, the WG will perform a gap =
analysis, comparing our recommendations (and the existing solutions) =
versus the issues identified by our Problem Statement. If there are =
gaps, then the WG should develop a Requirements document, as input to =
future work. The development of a solution, based on those requirements, =
might happen in a different WG or by a re-chartered ARMD.
>=20
> - Does the WG have interest in developing an "ARP/ND implementation" =
recommendation, a "how to scale" recommendation, and/or some other =
recommendation(s)?
> - Does the WG feel that there are gaps between existing solutions and =
the issues described by our Problem Statement? If so, what are the =
requirements for a solution to the Problem Statement?
>=20
> 3. OTHER TOPICS TO CONSIDER
>=20
> Considering the ARMD charter as a whole, we are not limited to =
discussion of ARP and ND, and we may consider other Address Resolution =
mechanisms that are applicable to massive datacenters.
>=20
> For example, the work taking place under the name "NVO3" (possibly =
including NVGRE, VXLAN, etc) is an example of an overlay approach that =
ARMD might consider. Specifically, ARMD might consider issues related to =
"inter-layer" address resolution (mapping "inside" addresses to =
"outside" addresses). And/or ARMD might consider issues related to =
traditional ARP/ND address resolution within an overlay, etc. (Note that =
ARMD cannot develop overlay solutions, per our current charter, but it =
may be appropriate to investigate the operational issues associated with =
them.)
>=20
> As an additional example, ARMD might consider operational issues =
and/or requirements related to address resolution in TRILL campuses, =
OpenFlow networks, etc. The chairs have not specifically identified =
these as topics for ARMD, but rather we hope the WG will decide whether =
they are relevant or whether our current scope is adequate.
>=20
> - Does the WG feel that our current Problem Statement scope should =
include additional topics, such as those described above and/or others?
>=20
> Thanks for taking the time to read this message. We look forward to =
receiving feedback from all ARMD participants. And we look forward to =
seeing some of you in Taipei.
>=20
> Cheers,
> -Benson & Linda
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> armd mailing list
> armd@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/armd


From adalela@cisco.com  Thu Nov 10 17:05:36 2011
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From: "Ashish Dalela (adalela)" <adalela@cisco.com>
To: "Benson Schliesser (bschlies)" <bschlies@cisco.com>, <armd@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [armd] ARMD Status and Work Plan
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In the interest of kick-starting a discussion, below are some random
thoughts.

First, address resolution is comprised of two problems -=20
- at the level of ARP/ND and=20
- at the level of Location/Address binding

These two problems can be combined/coupled or kept separate. It might be
good to say that there are two types "resolving" and do we want to
combine or keep them separate. Combining has backward compatibility
issues, but it might be worth determining if the benefits warrant that
disruption.

Second, there are questions about architecture of address resolution -=20
- distributed at access
- distributed all over (e.g. with a hash)
- centralized at some points (load-balanced)

There can be a discussion of various models, their pros-and-cons, with a
recommendation.

Third, how does the address resolver get populated?
- snoop ARP/ND=20
- rely on conversation learning
- use protocols to update addresses

This gets into the design of the mechanism, and has implications for
convergence/reliability.

Fourth, there are issues of security and manageability
- can anyone resolve anyone (security)?
- how do I know who is resolving whom (which are active flows)?
- is address resolution a self-sustaining system, or operator controls
it (policy)?

Rather than start with a problem statement, it might be good to start
with questions, then determine if some of them are problems, then decide
if we really want to solve these problems (some problems are best left
untouched ;-)).

Thanks, Ashish


-----Original Message-----
From: armd-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:armd-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Benson Schliesser (bschlies)
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 12:32 AM
To: armd@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [armd] ARMD Status and Work Plan

For those of you that might ignore my message as "too long; didn't
read", here is a shorter version just listing the questions:

- Does the WG feel that our Problem Statement is complete?

- Does the WG feel that draft-karir-armd-statistics and/or
draft-armd-datacenter-reference-arch should be made WG documents,
incorporated in the Problem Statement, and/or need more work?

- Does the WG have interest in pursuing further work on the "survey of
existing implementations" and "survey of security" milestones?

- Does the WG have interest in developing an "ARP/ND implementation"
recommendation, a "how to scale" recommendation, and/or some other
recommendation(s)?

- Does the WG feel that there are gaps between existing solutions and
the issues described by our Problem Statement? If so, what are the
requirements for a solution to the Problem Statement?

- Does the WG feel that our current Problem Statement scope should
include additional topics, such as those described [in section 3 below]
and/or others?

Cheers,
-Benson


On Nov 9, 2011, at 10:00 PM, Benson Schliesser wrote:

> ARMD Participants -
>=20
> Linda and I have been discussing ARMD's progress against our charter
and planning next steps for the WG, and we would like your feedback.
This topic will be discussed at the upcoming IETF-82 meeting in Taipei.
But even if you plan to attend in person, please provide feedback on the
mailing list so that everybody can join the discussion. We apologize for
the length of this message, but hope that you will take the time to
respond to each of the questions below.
>=20
> 1. CURRENT STATUS OF MILESTONES
>=20
> According to our charter we have several milestones that are due.
Specifically, we are overdue to publish a Problem Statement and we are
currently due to publish documents on "statistics collection and
behavior analysis", a "survey of existing implementations", and a
"survey of security".
>=20
> ARMD has a draft for the problem statement
(draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00). Also, there is an individual
draft discussing statistics (draft-karir-armd-statistics-01) and there
is an independent draft on datacenter architecture
(draft-armd-datacenter-reference-arch-00). Collectively, these drafts
would seem to satisfy some of our milestones. As a WG we need to decide
on next steps for these documents.
>=20
> As for the other milestones that are not addressed by the existing
drafts, we must decide how to proceed. There is a comment, about
variations of ARP / ND implementations, in
draft-karir-armd-statistics-01 which might apply to the "survey of
existing implementations" milestone. But we do not have an actual survey
per se, with details of the various ARP and ND implementations.  Also,
to my knowledge we have no contributions that might apply to the "survey
of security" milestone. The WG needs to decide how to proceed with these
milestones.
>=20
> - Does the WG feel that our Problem Statement is complete?
> - Does the WG feel that draft-karir-armd-statistics and/or
draft-armd-datacenter-reference-arch should be made WG documents,
incorporated in the Problem Statement, and/or need more work?
> - Does the WG have interest in pursuing further work on the "survey of
existing implementations" and "survey of security" milestones?
>=20
> 2. NEXT STEPS
>=20
> In addition to the milestones mentioned above, our charter includes
two milestones due in March 2012. These are to document ARMD's
"recommendations" and perform a "gap analysis".
>=20
> Thus far, the chairs have identified two types of recommendation that
ARMD might consider making. The first is an ARP and/or ND
"implementation" BCP, with recommendations for configuring or tuning ARP
and/or ND. This would be much easier if we have a completed ARP/ND
implementation survey. The second is an operational "how to scale"
recommendation. As an illustrative example, this might suggest such
options as A) replace ARP/ND with static entries, B) use L2/L3
segmentation to fit within specified constraints (smaller L2 domains, L3
to the access layer, etc), and/or C) deploy ARP/ND proxy functions in
the network. This example isn't meant as a proposal, merely as an
illustration for further discussion. The WG needs to decide what
recommendations to make.
>=20
> As an aside, I would like to point out that ARP Proxy isn't very well
defined. There are multiple variations of ARP Proxy with different
levels of documentation. As examples of different ARP Proxy behaviors,
please see RFC1027 and draft-shah-armd-arp-reduction-02. I also
recommend becoming familiar with draft-hu-trill-rbridge-esadi and
draft-dunbar-trill-directory-assisted-edge, as well as OpenFlow, the
NVO3 effort, etc. If the WG recommends ARP Proxy as described above,
then we may need to survey existing ARP and/or ND Proxy behaviors.
>=20
> Once we have documented our recommendations, the WG will perform a gap
analysis, comparing our recommendations (and the existing solutions)
versus the issues identified by our Problem Statement. If there are
gaps, then the WG should develop a Requirements document, as input to
future work. The development of a solution, based on those requirements,
might happen in a different WG or by a re-chartered ARMD.
>=20
> - Does the WG have interest in developing an "ARP/ND implementation"
recommendation, a "how to scale" recommendation, and/or some other
recommendation(s)?
> - Does the WG feel that there are gaps between existing solutions and
the issues described by our Problem Statement? If so, what are the
requirements for a solution to the Problem Statement?
>=20
> 3. OTHER TOPICS TO CONSIDER
>=20
> Considering the ARMD charter as a whole, we are not limited to
discussion of ARP and ND, and we may consider other Address Resolution
mechanisms that are applicable to massive datacenters.
>=20
> For example, the work taking place under the name "NVO3" (possibly
including NVGRE, VXLAN, etc) is an example of an overlay approach that
ARMD might consider. Specifically, ARMD might consider issues related to
"inter-layer" address resolution (mapping "inside" addresses to
"outside" addresses). And/or ARMD might consider issues related to
traditional ARP/ND address resolution within an overlay, etc. (Note that
ARMD cannot develop overlay solutions, per our current charter, but it
may be appropriate to investigate the operational issues associated with
them.)
>=20
> As an additional example, ARMD might consider operational issues
and/or requirements related to address resolution in TRILL campuses,
OpenFlow networks, etc. The chairs have not specifically identified
these as topics for ARMD, but rather we hope the WG will decide whether
they are relevant or whether our current scope is adequate.
>=20
> - Does the WG feel that our current Problem Statement scope should
include additional topics, such as those described above and/or others?
>=20
> Thanks for taking the time to read this message. We look forward to
receiving feedback from all ARMD participants. And we look forward to
seeing some of you in Taipei.
>=20
> Cheers,
> -Benson & Linda
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> armd mailing list
> armd@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/armd

_______________________________________________
armd mailing list
armd@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/armd

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IEEE/IFIP International Workshop on Management of the Future Internet (ManFI 2012) 
==================================================================================
16 April 2012
Maui, Hawaii, USA
http://www.manfi.org


CALL FOR PAPERS
---------------
The Fourth IEEE/IFIP International Workshop on Management of the Future Internet (ManFI 2012) will be held in conjunction with IEEE/IFIP NOMS 2012 in Maui, Hawaii, USA, from April 16-20, 2012. The workshop is sponsored by the IEEE Communications Society (ComSoc) and supported by POSTECH ITCE, Ghent University-IBBT, NEC, and Ericsson LM. The workshop is endorsed by the Technical Committee on Network Operations and Management (CNOM).
It is widely agreed that, despite its many successes, the current Internet also has a set of systemic problems, ranging from an upcoming shortage of IP addresses to insufficient security. However, the lack of scalable and agile manageability is arguably more important, as without management, it is impossible to build systems that adapt the services and resources offered in a context-dependent manner.
In either case (clean slate vs. evolution vs. revolution) we must consider the manageability of the Future Internet from the beginning. Following the success of the three previous editions of this workshop, held in conjunction with IM 2009, NOMS 2010 and IM 2011, ManFI 2012 aims at providing an international forum for researchers in these and similar areas. ManFI 2012 will combine original full paper presentations with a motivating keynote, quick hot topic presentations and a panel discussion to thoroughly explore this challenging topic.

Topics of interest
------------------
Authors are invited to submit papers that fall into or are related to the topic areas listed below:
- Architectural Issues
   * Advantages and disadvantages of revolutionary, evolutionary, and other approaches to managing the Future Internet
   * Separation of data, control, and management planes
   * Design of architectural building blocks for managing the Future Internet
   * Advances in measurement, management, security, accounting, mobility, and other functions
   * Virtualization of resources and services
   * Dynamic composition of management and operational functionality
   * Mechanisms for managing interconnected computational infrastructures (e.g. elastic clouds, federated clouds) in the Future Internet
   * Implications of social network success on the Future Internet architecture
- Design and Implementation Issues
   * Abstractions for programmable network elements
   * Accommodating context-awareness in management
   * Applying  situation awareness to network management
   * Federation between administrative domains and support of all constituencies
   * The role of models, ontologies, and other knowledge abstractions in the Future Internet
   * Uncertainty and probabilistic approaches to management of the Future Internet
   * Approaches for the organization of management data, data analytics and visualization
   * Experience reports from Future Internet experimental facilities set-up and results
- Economic Issues
   * Economic aspects driving the deployment of Future Internet management technology
   * Economic opportunities and challenges for management technology
   * Experience reports from management in test beds

Paper submission
----------------
Paper submissions must present original, research or experiences. Late-breaking advances and work-in-progress reports from ongoing research are also encouraged. Only original papers that have not been published or submitted for publication elsewhere can be submitted. Each submission must be written in English, accompanied by a 75 to 200 word abstract that clearly outlines the scope and contributions of the paper, and a list of up to 5 key words. There is a length limitation of 6 pages (including title, abstract, all figures, tables, and references) for regular conference papers, and 4 pages for short papers. Submissions must be in IEEE 2-column style. Papers exceeding these limits, multiple submissions, and self-plagiarized papers will be rejected without further review. Authors should submit their papers in PDF, postscript, or Word formats via JEMS: (https://submissoes.sbc.org.br/).

Proceedings
-----------
Papers accepted for ManFI 2012 will be included in the conference proceedings, IEEE Xplore, and EI Index. The IEEE reserves the right to remove any paper from IEEE Xplore if the paper is not presented at the workshop. Awards will be presented to the best paper and to the best student paper at the workshop. Furthermore, we plan to work with a leading journal, such as JNSM, TNSM and IJNM, to solicit extended versions of the best papers of ManFI 2012 to be submitted for review.

Workshop Co-Chairs
------------------
- Prof. James Won-Ki Hong, POSTECH, Korea
- Prof. Filip De Turck, Ghent University - IBBT, Belgium
- Dr. Yoshiaki Kiriha, NEC, Japan
- Dr. Sven van der Meer, Ericsson LM, Ireland

Publicity Co-Chairs
-------------------
- Leonidas Lymberopoulos, National Technical University of Athens, Greece 
- Cathryn Peoples, University of Ulster, UK 
 
Important dates
---------------
- Abstract registration deadline: December 14, 2011
- Paper submission: December 20, 2011
- Notification of acceptance: January 31, 2012
- Final version of papers due: February 15, 2012
- Workshop date: April 16, 2012

For more information, please contact one of the Workshop Co-Chairs at tpcchairs@manfi2012.org

From linda.dunbar@huawei.com  Sat Nov 12 00:20:13 2011
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From: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [armd] ARMD Status and Work Plan
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Ashish, 

You are absolutely right that the "Address Resolution" in data center not only involves IP <-> MAC type of Address resolution (ARP/ND) but also has Host <-> Overlay Edge type of resolution due to the trend of Overlay network in data centers. 
The question is 
- should the "host (MAC or IP) <-> Overlay Edge" address resolution be a Section in the " draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement", or a separate draft? Any volunteer to write the draft? 

At this stage of ARMD, we don't really need to address if solution could be "combined/coupled" or kept separate (because ARMD is still in OpArea).   

As for "snoop ARP/ND", "conversation learning", etc, I've seen them being used today to reduce the ARP/ND processing required on boundary routers. Therefore, they should be included in the ARMD Best Common Practice Recommendation draft. 

Linda 


> -----Original Message-----
> From: armd-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:armd-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Ashish Dalela (adalela)
> Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 7:05 PM
> To: Benson Schliesser (bschlies); armd@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [armd] ARMD Status and Work Plan
> 
> 
> In the interest of kick-starting a discussion, below are some random
> thoughts.
> 
> First, address resolution is comprised of two problems -
> - at the level of ARP/ND and
> - at the level of Location/Address binding
> 
> These two problems can be combined/coupled or kept separate. It might
> be
> good to say that there are two types "resolving" and do we want to
> combine or keep them separate. Combining has backward compatibility
> issues, but it might be worth determining if the benefits warrant that
> disruption.
> 
> Second, there are questions about architecture of address resolution -
> - distributed at access
> - distributed all over (e.g. with a hash)
> - centralized at some points (load-balanced)
> 
> There can be a discussion of various models, their pros-and-cons, with
> a
> recommendation.
> 
> Third, how does the address resolver get populated?
> - snoop ARP/ND
> - rely on conversation learning
> - use protocols to update addresses
> 
> This gets into the design of the mechanism, and has implications for
> convergence/reliability.
> 
> Fourth, there are issues of security and manageability
> - can anyone resolve anyone (security)?
> - how do I know who is resolving whom (which are active flows)?
> - is address resolution a self-sustaining system, or operator controls
> it (policy)?
> 
> Rather than start with a problem statement, it might be good to start
> with questions, then determine if some of them are problems, then
> decide
> if we really want to solve these problems (some problems are best left
> untouched ;-)).
> 
> Thanks, Ashish
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: armd-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:armd-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Benson Schliesser (bschlies)
> Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 12:32 AM
> To: armd@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [armd] ARMD Status and Work Plan
> 
> For those of you that might ignore my message as "too long; didn't
> read", here is a shorter version just listing the questions:
> 
> - Does the WG feel that our Problem Statement is complete?
> 
> - Does the WG feel that draft-karir-armd-statistics and/or
> draft-armd-datacenter-reference-arch should be made WG documents,
> incorporated in the Problem Statement, and/or need more work?
> 
> - Does the WG have interest in pursuing further work on the "survey of
> existing implementations" and "survey of security" milestones?
> 
> - Does the WG have interest in developing an "ARP/ND implementation"
> recommendation, a "how to scale" recommendation, and/or some other
> recommendation(s)?
> 
> - Does the WG feel that there are gaps between existing solutions and
> the issues described by our Problem Statement? If so, what are the
> requirements for a solution to the Problem Statement?
> 
> - Does the WG feel that our current Problem Statement scope should
> include additional topics, such as those described [in section 3 below]
> and/or others?
> 
> Cheers,
> -Benson
> 
> 
> On Nov 9, 2011, at 10:00 PM, Benson Schliesser wrote:
> 
> > ARMD Participants -
> >
> > Linda and I have been discussing ARMD's progress against our charter
> and planning next steps for the WG, and we would like your feedback.
> This topic will be discussed at the upcoming IETF-82 meeting in Taipei.
> But even if you plan to attend in person, please provide feedback on
> the
> mailing list so that everybody can join the discussion. We apologize
> for
> the length of this message, but hope that you will take the time to
> respond to each of the questions below.
> >
> > 1. CURRENT STATUS OF MILESTONES
> >
> > According to our charter we have several milestones that are due.
> Specifically, we are overdue to publish a Problem Statement and we are
> currently due to publish documents on "statistics collection and
> behavior analysis", a "survey of existing implementations", and a
> "survey of security".
> >
> > ARMD has a draft for the problem statement
> (draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00). Also, there is an individual
> draft discussing statistics (draft-karir-armd-statistics-01) and there
> is an independent draft on datacenter architecture
> (draft-armd-datacenter-reference-arch-00). Collectively, these drafts
> would seem to satisfy some of our milestones. As a WG we need to decide
> on next steps for these documents.
> >
> > As for the other milestones that are not addressed by the existing
> drafts, we must decide how to proceed. There is a comment, about
> variations of ARP / ND implementations, in
> draft-karir-armd-statistics-01 which might apply to the "survey of
> existing implementations" milestone. But we do not have an actual
> survey
> per se, with details of the various ARP and ND implementations.  Also,
> to my knowledge we have no contributions that might apply to the
> "survey
> of security" milestone. The WG needs to decide how to proceed with
> these
> milestones.
> >
> > - Does the WG feel that our Problem Statement is complete?
> > - Does the WG feel that draft-karir-armd-statistics and/or
> draft-armd-datacenter-reference-arch should be made WG documents,
> incorporated in the Problem Statement, and/or need more work?
> > - Does the WG have interest in pursuing further work on the "survey
> of
> existing implementations" and "survey of security" milestones?
> >
> > 2. NEXT STEPS
> >
> > In addition to the milestones mentioned above, our charter includes
> two milestones due in March 2012. These are to document ARMD's
> "recommendations" and perform a "gap analysis".
> >
> > Thus far, the chairs have identified two types of recommendation that
> ARMD might consider making. The first is an ARP and/or ND
> "implementation" BCP, with recommendations for configuring or tuning
> ARP
> and/or ND. This would be much easier if we have a completed ARP/ND
> implementation survey. The second is an operational "how to scale"
> recommendation. As an illustrative example, this might suggest such
> options as A) replace ARP/ND with static entries, B) use L2/L3
> segmentation to fit within specified constraints (smaller L2 domains,
> L3
> to the access layer, etc), and/or C) deploy ARP/ND proxy functions in
> the network. This example isn't meant as a proposal, merely as an
> illustration for further discussion. The WG needs to decide what
> recommendations to make.
> >
> > As an aside, I would like to point out that ARP Proxy isn't very well
> defined. There are multiple variations of ARP Proxy with different
> levels of documentation. As examples of different ARP Proxy behaviors,
> please see RFC1027 and draft-shah-armd-arp-reduction-02. I also
> recommend becoming familiar with draft-hu-trill-rbridge-esadi and
> draft-dunbar-trill-directory-assisted-edge, as well as OpenFlow, the
> NVO3 effort, etc. If the WG recommends ARP Proxy as described above,
> then we may need to survey existing ARP and/or ND Proxy behaviors.
> >
> > Once we have documented our recommendations, the WG will perform a
> gap
> analysis, comparing our recommendations (and the existing solutions)
> versus the issues identified by our Problem Statement. If there are
> gaps, then the WG should develop a Requirements document, as input to
> future work. The development of a solution, based on those requirements,
> might happen in a different WG or by a re-chartered ARMD.
> >
> > - Does the WG have interest in developing an "ARP/ND implementation"
> recommendation, a "how to scale" recommendation, and/or some other
> recommendation(s)?
> > - Does the WG feel that there are gaps between existing solutions and
> the issues described by our Problem Statement? If so, what are the
> requirements for a solution to the Problem Statement?
> >
> > 3. OTHER TOPICS TO CONSIDER
> >
> > Considering the ARMD charter as a whole, we are not limited to
> discussion of ARP and ND, and we may consider other Address Resolution
> mechanisms that are applicable to massive datacenters.
> >
> > For example, the work taking place under the name "NVO3" (possibly
> including NVGRE, VXLAN, etc) is an example of an overlay approach that
> ARMD might consider. Specifically, ARMD might consider issues related
> to
> "inter-layer" address resolution (mapping "inside" addresses to
> "outside" addresses). And/or ARMD might consider issues related to
> traditional ARP/ND address resolution within an overlay, etc. (Note
> that
> ARMD cannot develop overlay solutions, per our current charter, but it
> may be appropriate to investigate the operational issues associated
> with
> them.)
> >
> > As an additional example, ARMD might consider operational issues
> and/or requirements related to address resolution in TRILL campuses,
> OpenFlow networks, etc. The chairs have not specifically identified
> these as topics for ARMD, but rather we hope the WG will decide whether
> they are relevant or whether our current scope is adequate.
> >
> > - Does the WG feel that our current Problem Statement scope should
> include additional topics, such as those described above and/or others?
> >
> > Thanks for taking the time to read this message. We look forward to
> receiving feedback from all ARMD participants. And we look forward to
> seeing some of you in Taipei.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > -Benson & Linda
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > armd mailing list
> > armd@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/armd
> 
> _______________________________________________
> armd mailing list
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/armd
> _______________________________________________
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Linda,

Location resolution isn't necessarily an overlay. Portland/MOOSE do it
without overlay by changing L2 headers. In these approaches, address
resolution and location resolution are identical. That's an advantage,
IMO.

Thanks,
Ashish

-----Original Message-----
From: Linda Dunbar [mailto:linda.dunbar@huawei.com]=20
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 1:50 PM
To: Ashish Dalela (adalela); Benson Schliesser (bschlies); armd@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [armd] ARMD Status and Work Plan

Ashish,=20

You are absolutely right that the "Address Resolution" in data center
not only involves IP <-> MAC type of Address resolution (ARP/ND) but
also has Host <-> Overlay Edge type of resolution due to the trend of
Overlay network in data centers.=20
The question is=20
- should the "host (MAC or IP) <-> Overlay Edge" address resolution be a
Section in the " draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement", or a separate
draft? Any volunteer to write the draft?=20

At this stage of ARMD, we don't really need to address if solution could
be "combined/coupled" or kept separate (because ARMD is still in
OpArea).  =20

As for "snoop ARP/ND", "conversation learning", etc, I've seen them
being used today to reduce the ARP/ND processing required on boundary
routers. Therefore, they should be included in the ARMD Best Common
Practice Recommendation draft.=20

Linda=20


> -----Original Message-----
> From: armd-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:armd-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
Of
> Ashish Dalela (adalela)
> Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 7:05 PM
> To: Benson Schliesser (bschlies); armd@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [armd] ARMD Status and Work Plan
>=20
>=20
> In the interest of kick-starting a discussion, below are some random
> thoughts.
>=20
> First, address resolution is comprised of two problems -
> - at the level of ARP/ND and
> - at the level of Location/Address binding
>=20
> These two problems can be combined/coupled or kept separate. It might
> be
> good to say that there are two types "resolving" and do we want to
> combine or keep them separate. Combining has backward compatibility
> issues, but it might be worth determining if the benefits warrant that
> disruption.
>=20
> Second, there are questions about architecture of address resolution -
> - distributed at access
> - distributed all over (e.g. with a hash)
> - centralized at some points (load-balanced)
>=20
> There can be a discussion of various models, their pros-and-cons, with
> a
> recommendation.
>=20
> Third, how does the address resolver get populated?
> - snoop ARP/ND
> - rely on conversation learning
> - use protocols to update addresses
>=20
> This gets into the design of the mechanism, and has implications for
> convergence/reliability.
>=20
> Fourth, there are issues of security and manageability
> - can anyone resolve anyone (security)?
> - how do I know who is resolving whom (which are active flows)?
> - is address resolution a self-sustaining system, or operator controls
> it (policy)?
>=20
> Rather than start with a problem statement, it might be good to start
> with questions, then determine if some of them are problems, then
> decide
> if we really want to solve these problems (some problems are best left
> untouched ;-)).
>=20
> Thanks, Ashish
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: armd-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:armd-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
Of
> Benson Schliesser (bschlies)
> Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 12:32 AM
> To: armd@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [armd] ARMD Status and Work Plan
>=20
> For those of you that might ignore my message as "too long; didn't
> read", here is a shorter version just listing the questions:
>=20
> - Does the WG feel that our Problem Statement is complete?
>=20
> - Does the WG feel that draft-karir-armd-statistics and/or
> draft-armd-datacenter-reference-arch should be made WG documents,
> incorporated in the Problem Statement, and/or need more work?
>=20
> - Does the WG have interest in pursuing further work on the "survey of
> existing implementations" and "survey of security" milestones?
>=20
> - Does the WG have interest in developing an "ARP/ND implementation"
> recommendation, a "how to scale" recommendation, and/or some other
> recommendation(s)?
>=20
> - Does the WG feel that there are gaps between existing solutions and
> the issues described by our Problem Statement? If so, what are the
> requirements for a solution to the Problem Statement?
>=20
> - Does the WG feel that our current Problem Statement scope should
> include additional topics, such as those described [in section 3
below]
> and/or others?
>=20
> Cheers,
> -Benson
>=20
>=20
> On Nov 9, 2011, at 10:00 PM, Benson Schliesser wrote:
>=20
> > ARMD Participants -
> >
> > Linda and I have been discussing ARMD's progress against our charter
> and planning next steps for the WG, and we would like your feedback.
> This topic will be discussed at the upcoming IETF-82 meeting in
Taipei.
> But even if you plan to attend in person, please provide feedback on
> the
> mailing list so that everybody can join the discussion. We apologize
> for
> the length of this message, but hope that you will take the time to
> respond to each of the questions below.
> >
> > 1. CURRENT STATUS OF MILESTONES
> >
> > According to our charter we have several milestones that are due.
> Specifically, we are overdue to publish a Problem Statement and we are
> currently due to publish documents on "statistics collection and
> behavior analysis", a "survey of existing implementations", and a
> "survey of security".
> >
> > ARMD has a draft for the problem statement
> (draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00). Also, there is an individual
> draft discussing statistics (draft-karir-armd-statistics-01) and there
> is an independent draft on datacenter architecture
> (draft-armd-datacenter-reference-arch-00). Collectively, these drafts
> would seem to satisfy some of our milestones. As a WG we need to
decide
> on next steps for these documents.
> >
> > As for the other milestones that are not addressed by the existing
> drafts, we must decide how to proceed. There is a comment, about
> variations of ARP / ND implementations, in
> draft-karir-armd-statistics-01 which might apply to the "survey of
> existing implementations" milestone. But we do not have an actual
> survey
> per se, with details of the various ARP and ND implementations.  Also,
> to my knowledge we have no contributions that might apply to the
> "survey
> of security" milestone. The WG needs to decide how to proceed with
> these
> milestones.
> >
> > - Does the WG feel that our Problem Statement is complete?
> > - Does the WG feel that draft-karir-armd-statistics and/or
> draft-armd-datacenter-reference-arch should be made WG documents,
> incorporated in the Problem Statement, and/or need more work?
> > - Does the WG have interest in pursuing further work on the "survey
> of
> existing implementations" and "survey of security" milestones?
> >
> > 2. NEXT STEPS
> >
> > In addition to the milestones mentioned above, our charter includes
> two milestones due in March 2012. These are to document ARMD's
> "recommendations" and perform a "gap analysis".
> >
> > Thus far, the chairs have identified two types of recommendation
that
> ARMD might consider making. The first is an ARP and/or ND
> "implementation" BCP, with recommendations for configuring or tuning
> ARP
> and/or ND. This would be much easier if we have a completed ARP/ND
> implementation survey. The second is an operational "how to scale"
> recommendation. As an illustrative example, this might suggest such
> options as A) replace ARP/ND with static entries, B) use L2/L3
> segmentation to fit within specified constraints (smaller L2 domains,
> L3
> to the access layer, etc), and/or C) deploy ARP/ND proxy functions in
> the network. This example isn't meant as a proposal, merely as an
> illustration for further discussion. The WG needs to decide what
> recommendations to make.
> >
> > As an aside, I would like to point out that ARP Proxy isn't very
well
> defined. There are multiple variations of ARP Proxy with different
> levels of documentation. As examples of different ARP Proxy behaviors,
> please see RFC1027 and draft-shah-armd-arp-reduction-02. I also
> recommend becoming familiar with draft-hu-trill-rbridge-esadi and
> draft-dunbar-trill-directory-assisted-edge, as well as OpenFlow, the
> NVO3 effort, etc. If the WG recommends ARP Proxy as described above,
> then we may need to survey existing ARP and/or ND Proxy behaviors.
> >
> > Once we have documented our recommendations, the WG will perform a
> gap
> analysis, comparing our recommendations (and the existing solutions)
> versus the issues identified by our Problem Statement. If there are
> gaps, then the WG should develop a Requirements document, as input to
> future work. The development of a solution, based on those
requirements,
> might happen in a different WG or by a re-chartered ARMD.
> >
> > - Does the WG have interest in developing an "ARP/ND implementation"
> recommendation, a "how to scale" recommendation, and/or some other
> recommendation(s)?
> > - Does the WG feel that there are gaps between existing solutions
and
> the issues described by our Problem Statement? If so, what are the
> requirements for a solution to the Problem Statement?
> >
> > 3. OTHER TOPICS TO CONSIDER
> >
> > Considering the ARMD charter as a whole, we are not limited to
> discussion of ARP and ND, and we may consider other Address Resolution
> mechanisms that are applicable to massive datacenters.
> >
> > For example, the work taking place under the name "NVO3" (possibly
> including NVGRE, VXLAN, etc) is an example of an overlay approach that
> ARMD might consider. Specifically, ARMD might consider issues related
> to
> "inter-layer" address resolution (mapping "inside" addresses to
> "outside" addresses). And/or ARMD might consider issues related to
> traditional ARP/ND address resolution within an overlay, etc. (Note
> that
> ARMD cannot develop overlay solutions, per our current charter, but it
> may be appropriate to investigate the operational issues associated
> with
> them.)
> >
> > As an additional example, ARMD might consider operational issues
> and/or requirements related to address resolution in TRILL campuses,
> OpenFlow networks, etc. The chairs have not specifically identified
> these as topics for ARMD, but rather we hope the WG will decide
whether
> they are relevant or whether our current scope is adequate.
> >
> > - Does the WG feel that our current Problem Statement scope should
> include additional topics, such as those described above and/or
others?
> >
> > Thanks for taking the time to read this message. We look forward to
> receiving feedback from all ARMD participants. And we look forward to
> seeing some of you in Taipei.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > -Benson & Linda
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > armd mailing list
> > armd@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/armd
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> armd mailing list
> armd@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/armd
> _______________________________________________
> armd mailing list
> armd@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/armd

From yakov@juniper.net  Mon Nov 14 12:46:03 2011
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Cc: "l2vpn@ietf.org" <l2vpn@ietf.org>, "sdnp@lucidvision.com" <sdnp@lucidvision.com>, L3VPN WG mailing list <l3vpn@ietf.org>, "armd@ietf.org" <armd@ietf.org>, yakov@juniper.net, Pedro Marques <pedro.r.marques@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [armd] Need your action to review draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt
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Linda,

> Pedro, =

> =

> You are absolutely right that there is no ARP/ND scaling issue if
> IP can be extended to hosts. Even if IP can be extended to Access
> switches, there is not much ARP/ND issues.
> =

> The draft lists down several common data center network designs,
> and states that some of the designs don't have ARP/ND scaling
> issues (but may have other issues for data centers).
> =

> That is why I encourage people to read the draft and provides
> comments.

=46rom 4.2 of the draft:

 4.2.  Scenario 2: L3 Terminates at the Aggregation Switch

   In Scenario 2, the L3 network extends only to the aggregation
   switches (or perhaps to routers that connect to the aggregation
   switches).  The aggregation switches (or the routers that connect to
   multiple aggregation switches) could terminate multiple distinct IP
   subnets (e.g., one per VLAN) or one large IP subnet.  In order to let
   hosts belonging to different IP subnets be placed under any access
   switches, it is necessary for access switches to enable multiple
   VLANs and aggregation switches to enable some VLANs (or subnets) over
   many physical ports.  This configuration breaks the confinement of
   the VLAN's broadcast domain and makes it equivalent to all the access
   switches being part of the same L2 broadcast domain (and IP subnet).
   Thus, this configuration allows VMs to be moved to servers connected
   to other access switches, but increases the size of the L2 broadcast
   domain, which can lead to difficulties outlined below.

This is the scenario that is used to justify the need for large L2
domain. =


The draft assumes that in order to move a given VM from one server
to another, where these two servers are connected to different
access switches, *all* the access switches must be configured with
the VM's IP subnet, and thus *all* the access switches must be part
of the VM's L2 broadcast domain. This is even if at any particular
point in time the servers hosting all the VMs of that IP subnet are
connected to only a subset of these switches. But is it truly
necessary, or could the L2 broadcast domain span only the switches
connected to the servers that presently host VMs of the IP subnet ?

Moreover, even if all the access switches need to be part of the
same L2 broadcast domain, the increase in the size of the L2 broadcast
domain in the above scenario is caused by the access switches, not
by the number of VMs per L2 domain. The difficulies mentioned in
the last sentence of the quoted paragraph are due to ARP, but ARP
is generated by VMs, not by the access switches. Given that, how
the increase in the size of the L2 broadcast domain *due solely to
the access switches*, could increase the amount of ARP traffic that
routers have to process ?

Yakov.

> =

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Pedro Marques [mailto:pedro.r.marques@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 1:52 PM
> > To: Linda Dunbar
> > Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org; L3VPN WG mailing list; sdnp@lucidvision.com;
> > armd@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: Need your action to review draft-ietf-armd-problem-
> > statement-00.txt
> > =

> > Linda,
> > I'd like to point out that the problem does not need to be solved if
> > only IP connectivity is required. This I-D:
> > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-marques-l3vpn-end-system-02 describes
> > a solution in which address resolution is not required irrespective of
> > the location of the traffic destination. Simply put, traffic can be
> > routed at each hop.
> > =

> > As per previous threads in this list, the concept of subnet which is
> > of no practical usefulness in this space. Since VMs can be randomly
> distributed across the network the subnet does not provide any
> > information aggregation value. Thus there is no need to do address
> > resolution.
> > =

> >   Pedro.
> > =

> > On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 11:31 AM, Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com=
>
> > wrote:
> > > For those of you who touch upon Data Center networking or server
> > > virtualization, be it Overlay, VPN4DC, or Application/Software drive=
n
> > > Controller for Data Center, Address Resolution is something Data
> > Center
> > > Gateways =A0will encounter because hosts/applications in data center=
s
> > do
> > > communicate with peers which are not in the same Overlay, outside th=
e
> > VPN
> > > domain, or from general public. ARMD has published its WG problem
> > statement
> > > draft. Your comments and suggestions are appreciated (send to
> > > armd@ietf.org).
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks, Linda Dunbar
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
> > --------------
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> > > directories. This draft is a work item of the Address Resolution for
> > Massive
> > > numbers of hosts in the Data center Working Group of the IETF.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Title=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 : Problem =
Statement for ARMD
> > >
> > > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Author(s)=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 : Thomas Narten
> > >
> > > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Filename=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 : draft-ietf-arm=
d-problem-statement-00.txt
> > >
> > > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Pages=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 : 11
> > >
> > > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Date=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 : 2011-1=
0-17
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > =A0=A0 This document examines issues related to the massive scaling =
of
> > data
> > >
> > > =A0=A0 centers.=A0 Our initial scope is relatively narrow.=A0 Specif=
ically,
> > we
> > >
> > > =A0=A0 focus on address resolution (ARP and ND) within the data cent=
er.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> > >
> > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-armd-problem-
> > statement-00.txt
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> > >
> > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
> > >
> > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement=
-
> > 00.txt
> > >
> > >
> =


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Subject: [armd] notes, jabber scribe for ARMD meeting today
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We need volunteers for taking notes and scribing to jabber during =
today's ARMD meeting.  If you are able and willing, please let either of =
the chairs know in advance.

Thanks,
-Benson & Linda


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Subject: Re: [armd] notes, jabber scribe for ARMD meeting today
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I am willing to volunteer.

Sue 

-----Original Message-----
From: armd-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:armd-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Benson Schliesser
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 8:51 PM
To: armd@ietf.org
Subject: [armd] notes, jabber scribe for ARMD meeting today

We need volunteers for taking notes and scribing to jabber during today's
ARMD meeting.  If you are able and willing, please let either of the chairs
know in advance.

Thanks,
-Benson & Linda

_______________________________________________
armd mailing list
armd@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/armd


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Thanks, Sue.

Anybody else? In a perfect world we would have 2 more volunteers, =
another note-taker and a jabber scribe.

Cheers,
-Benson


On Nov 15, 2011, at 12:28 PM, Susan Hares wrote:

> I am willing to volunteer.
>=20
> Sue=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: armd-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:armd-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of
> Benson Schliesser
> Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 8:51 PM
> To: armd@ietf.org
> Subject: [armd] notes, jabber scribe for ARMD meeting today
>=20
> We need volunteers for taking notes and scribing to jabber during =
today's
> ARMD meeting.  If you are able and willing, please let either of the =
chairs
> know in advance.
>=20
> Thanks,
> -Benson & Linda
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> armd mailing list
> armd@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/armd
>=20


From skh@ndzh.com  Mon Nov 14 22:21:00 2011
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Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org, sdnp@lucidvision.com, 'Pedro Marques' <pedro.r.marques@gmail.com>, 'L3VPN WG mailing list' <l3vpn@ietf.org>, armd@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [armd] Need your action to review	draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt
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Yakov: 

We are not trying to justify any definition we have, but to report what DC
operators have given as the problem in an OPS draft. 

In many ways, the text has been successful by having you comment on this
point so that operators can consider in depth this scenario. 

With all due respect to you as a grand master of word-smithing, let me
restate some of the argument so that I can attempt to inspire discussion. 

The "all" in this discussion indicates "all" within this domain which
crosses the VLANs in the text. The 802.1q VLAN mechanism provides some
scoping of broadcast and unicast for an L2 grouping. The IP Subset provides
a scoping for scoping for IP (L3 grouping). ARP maps the L2 grouping to the
l3 grouping. The growth in the number of nodes (VM or access) in the
combined groupings of mapped nodes are the problem. 

If you want to restrict nodes within this at L2 or L3, you must find a means
to determine the L2 grouping. The mapping of the IP to MAC Address is scoped
by the combination of L2/L3 grouping. 

So.. at some point the VM or the real nodes reach an "aggregation grouping"
at the access switch or the VMs forming an access switch. This grouping
point is stressed by the underlying growth of L2/L3 node combination. On the
ARMD BOF/List, Manish Karir (Merit) published a study in looking at the ARP
problem using VMs groupings.  

Some large scale operators stated the VM aggregation I described above did
not represent a case widely used. Therefore the discussion focused on the
deployed access switches, servers, and VMs as described in the text.  Please
refer to past discussion from Igor G. on this list or his drafts on
solutions/problems. Also, you can refer to NANOG session on this.  

Yakov - let me know of I am unclear or just misunderstood your discussion
point. Linda, Manish, and Igor let me know if I was incorrect in anything I
said.

Hopefully, I've given the discussion a push. If nothing else, it will 

Sue 

-----Original Message-----
From: armd-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:armd-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Yakov Rekhter
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 3:42 PM
To: Linda Dunbar
Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org; sdnp@lucidvision.com; L3VPN WG mailing list;
armd@ietf.org; yakov@juniper.net; Pedro Marques
Subject: Re: [armd] Need your action to review
draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt

Linda,

> Pedro,
> 
> You are absolutely right that there is no ARP/ND scaling issue if IP 
> can be extended to hosts. Even if IP can be extended to Access 
> switches, there is not much ARP/ND issues.
> 
> The draft lists down several common data center network designs, and 
> states that some of the designs don't have ARP/ND scaling issues (but 
> may have other issues for data centers).
> 
> That is why I encourage people to read the draft and provides 
> comments.

>From 4.2 of the draft:

 4.2.  Scenario 2: L3 Terminates at the Aggregation Switch

   In Scenario 2, the L3 network extends only to the aggregation
   switches (or perhaps to routers that connect to the aggregation
   switches).  The aggregation switches (or the routers that connect to
   multiple aggregation switches) could terminate multiple distinct IP
   subnets (e.g., one per VLAN) or one large IP subnet.  In order to let
   hosts belonging to different IP subnets be placed under any access
   switches, it is necessary for access switches to enable multiple
   VLANs and aggregation switches to enable some VLANs (or subnets) over
   many physical ports.  This configuration breaks the confinement of
   the VLAN's broadcast domain and makes it equivalent to all the access
   switches being part of the same L2 broadcast domain (and IP subnet).
   Thus, this configuration allows VMs to be moved to servers connected
   to other access switches, but increases the size of the L2 broadcast
   domain, which can lead to difficulties outlined below.

This is the scenario that is used to justify the need for large L2 domain. 

The draft assumes that in order to move a given VM from one server to
another, where these two servers are connected to different access switches,
*all* the access switches must be configured with the VM's IP subnet, and
thus *all* the access switches must be part of the VM's L2 broadcast domain.
This is even if at any particular point in time the servers hosting all the
VMs of that IP subnet are connected to only a subset of these switches. But
is it truly necessary, or could the L2 broadcast domain span only the
switches connected to the servers that presently host VMs of the IP subnet ?

Moreover, even if all the access switches need to be part of the same L2
broadcast domain, the increase in the size of the L2 broadcast domain in the
above scenario is caused by the access switches, not by the number of VMs
per L2 domain. The difficulies mentioned in the last sentence of the quoted
paragraph are due to ARP, but ARP is generated by VMs, not by the access
switches. Given that, how the increase in the size of the L2 broadcast
domain *due solely to the access switches*, could increase the amount of ARP
traffic that routers have to process ?

Yakov.

> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Pedro Marques [mailto:pedro.r.marques@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 1:52 PM
> > To: Linda Dunbar
> > Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org; L3VPN WG mailing list; sdnp@lucidvision.com; 
> > armd@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: Need your action to review draft-ietf-armd-problem- 
> > statement-00.txt
> > 
> > Linda,
> > I'd like to point out that the problem does not need to be solved if 
> > only IP connectivity is required. This I-D:
> > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-marques-l3vpn-end-system-02 
> > describes a solution in which address resolution is not required 
> > irrespective of the location of the traffic destination. Simply put, 
> > traffic can be routed at each hop.
> > 
> > As per previous threads in this list, the concept of subnet which is 
> > of no practical usefulness in this space. Since VMs can be randomly
> distributed across the network the subnet does not provide any
> > information aggregation value. Thus there is no need to do address 
> > resolution.
> > 
> >   Pedro.
> > 
> > On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 11:31 AM, Linda Dunbar 
> > <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>
> > wrote:
> > > For those of you who touch upon Data Center networking or server 
> > > virtualization, be it Overlay, VPN4DC, or Application/Software 
> > > driven Controller for Data Center, Address Resolution is something 
> > > Data
> > Center
> > > Gateways  will encounter because hosts/applications in data 
> > > centers
> > do
> > > communicate with peers which are not in the same Overlay, outside 
> > > the
> > VPN
> > > domain, or from general public. ARMD has published its WG problem
> > statement
> > > draft. Your comments and suggestions are appreciated (send to 
> > > armd@ietf.org).
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks, Linda Dunbar
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > ---
> > --------------
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
> > > directories. This draft is a work item of the Address Resolution 
> > > for
> > Massive
> > > numbers of hosts in the Data center Working Group of the IETF.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >         Title           : Problem Statement for ARMD
> > >
> > >         Author(s)       : Thomas Narten
> > >
> > >         Filename        : draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt
> > >
> > >         Pages           : 11
> > >
> > >         Date            : 2011-10-17
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >    This document examines issues related to the massive scaling of
> > data
> > >
> > >    centers.  Our initial scope is relatively narrow.  
> > > Specifically,
> > we
> > >
> > >    focus on address resolution (ARP and ND) within the data center.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> > >
> > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-armd-problem-
> > statement-00.txt
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> > >
> > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
> > >
> > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-armd-problem-stateme
> > > nt-
> > 00.txt
> > >
> > >
> 


From pedro.r.marques@gmail.com  Tue Nov 15 09:47:02 2011
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From: Pedro Marques <pedro.r.marques@gmail.com>
To: Susan Hares <skh@ndzh.com>
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Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org, sdnp@lucidvision.com, L3VPN WG mailing list <l3vpn@ietf.org>, armd@ietf.org, Yakov Rekhter <yakov@juniper.net>
Subject: Re: [armd] Need your action to review draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt
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Sue,

I think the following statements capture a common configuration for
small / low-bandwidth (1g) / private DCs:
  - VLANs are used for isolation.
  - These vlans are locally scoped to a pair of aggregation switches.
  - They are statically configured at the access switches.
  - Traffic exchange between vlans is done at the aggregation switches
(often subject to service modules).

The above is not contentious, i presume.

I think that everyone would also agree that:
  - It is highly desirable to be able to have an application (a
process running on a server) to be placed in an arbitrary location of
the DC. (which conflicts with vlan locality).
  - It is expected that the number of application processes that
participate in the same isolation domain will grow significantly (due
to external factors related to application design).
  - It is expected that the bandwidth requirements for severs will
increase by an order of magnitude (along with higher server
utilization).

I hope we all agree so far.

Now from the 2 sets of premises above it does not directly follow that
the answer is to build larger and larger L2 domains. I do understand
that to be a common perception but that is actually not necessary and
imho not useful.

The fundamental misconception is that the application processes (in a
VM or other wise) do need VLANs. They do not. They need connectivity;
both within an inner level of isolation (today's vlan) and to other
services in the data center (which today is routed often subject to
security policies). An example of the later would be a set of database
servers; database servers are often expensive and shared among
different applications.

In order to be able to place any VM anywhere, the VM needs to have
direct connectivity to multiple isolation domains. isolation domains
which are today modeled as L2 and isolation domains that are today
modeled as L3.

The concept of an L2/L3 boundary is not useful if you assume that a VM
can be placed in an arbitrary location. Anywhere you choose to put
that "boundary": top-of-rack, aggregation, etc, you are likely to find
that the boundary gets in the way of the VMs being able to be located
anywhere. At least without causing traffic to cross the core twice
which is a non-starter.

So to actually solve the problem according to requirements one needs
to get rid of the boundary and move to a solution that is all L2 or
all L3. And ARP/ND is really not a relevant problem.

With an "L2" solution tends to come the assumption that there is a
single "isolation" domain... and a single subnet, which doesn't really
cut it. "L3" and specially BGP-based IP/VPNs natively support the
concept of direct traffic exchanges between different isolation
domains, subject to policy.

Even if you do decide to select an L2 approach that limits an
application to a single isolation domain, the L2 mac information will
need to be present at every switch where that L2 VLAN is present. If
you follow an approach where there is core-interface to core-interface
mac-learning (VXLAN for instance) then indeed you do have ARP
broadcasts being used to update forwarding tables. But approaches such
as EVPN can perform learning on the edge interface only eliminating
the need to generate ARP broadcasts.

It is entirely likely that the approaches that attempt to provide for
large broadcast domains already contain a solution for L2 address
discovery. Conversely it is rather unclear that you can address the
ARP/ND scaling issue independently of the design of the L2 solution
itself.

regards,
  Pedro.

On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 10:20 PM, Susan Hares <skh@ndzh.com> wrote:
> Yakov:
>
> We are not trying to justify any definition we have, but to report what D=
C
> operators have given as the problem in an OPS draft.
>
> In many ways, the text has been successful by having you comment on this
> point so that operators can consider in depth this scenario.
>
> With all due respect to you as a grand master of word-smithing, let me
> restate some of the argument so that I can attempt to inspire discussion.
>
> The "all" in this discussion indicates "all" within this domain which
> crosses the VLANs in the text. The 802.1q VLAN mechanism provides some
> scoping of broadcast and unicast for an L2 grouping. The IP Subset provid=
es
> a scoping for scoping for IP (L3 grouping). ARP maps the L2 grouping to t=
he
> l3 grouping. The growth in the number of nodes (VM or access) in the
> combined groupings of mapped nodes are the problem.
>
> If you want to restrict nodes within this at L2 or L3, you must find a me=
ans
> to determine the L2 grouping. The mapping of the IP to MAC Address is sco=
ped
> by the combination of L2/L3 grouping.
>
> So.. at some point the VM or the real nodes reach an "aggregation groupin=
g"
> at the access switch or the VMs forming an access switch. This grouping
> point is stressed by the underlying growth of L2/L3 node combination. On =
the
> ARMD BOF/List, Manish Karir (Merit) published a study in looking at the A=
RP
> problem using VMs groupings.
>
> Some large scale operators stated the VM aggregation I described above di=
d
> not represent a case widely used. Therefore the discussion focused on the
> deployed access switches, servers, and VMs as described in the text. =A0P=
lease
> refer to past discussion from Igor G. on this list or his drafts on
> solutions/problems. Also, you can refer to NANOG session on this.
>
> Yakov - let me know of I am unclear or just misunderstood your discussion
> point. Linda, Manish, and Igor let me know if I was incorrect in anything=
 I
> said.
>
> Hopefully, I've given the discussion a push. If nothing else, it will
>
> Sue
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: armd-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:armd-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Yakov Rekhter
> Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 3:42 PM
> To: Linda Dunbar
> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org; sdnp@lucidvision.com; L3VPN WG mailing list;
> armd@ietf.org; yakov@juniper.net; Pedro Marques
> Subject: Re: [armd] Need your action to review
> draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt
>
> Linda,
>
>> Pedro,
>>
>> You are absolutely right that there is no ARP/ND scaling issue if IP
>> can be extended to hosts. Even if IP can be extended to Access
>> switches, there is not much ARP/ND issues.
>>
>> The draft lists down several common data center network designs, and
>> states that some of the designs don't have ARP/ND scaling issues (but
>> may have other issues for data centers).
>>
>> That is why I encourage people to read the draft and provides
>> comments.
>
> From 4.2 of the draft:
>
> =A04.2. =A0Scenario 2: L3 Terminates at the Aggregation Switch
>
> =A0 In Scenario 2, the L3 network extends only to the aggregation
> =A0 switches (or perhaps to routers that connect to the aggregation
> =A0 switches). =A0The aggregation switches (or the routers that connect t=
o
> =A0 multiple aggregation switches) could terminate multiple distinct IP
> =A0 subnets (e.g., one per VLAN) or one large IP subnet. =A0In order to l=
et
> =A0 hosts belonging to different IP subnets be placed under any access
> =A0 switches, it is necessary for access switches to enable multiple
> =A0 VLANs and aggregation switches to enable some VLANs (or subnets) over
> =A0 many physical ports. =A0This configuration breaks the confinement of
> =A0 the VLAN's broadcast domain and makes it equivalent to all the access
> =A0 switches being part of the same L2 broadcast domain (and IP subnet).
> =A0 Thus, this configuration allows VMs to be moved to servers connected
> =A0 to other access switches, but increases the size of the L2 broadcast
> =A0 domain, which can lead to difficulties outlined below.
>
> This is the scenario that is used to justify the need for large L2 domain=
.
>
> The draft assumes that in order to move a given VM from one server to
> another, where these two servers are connected to different access switch=
es,
> *all* the access switches must be configured with the VM's IP subnet, and
> thus *all* the access switches must be part of the VM's L2 broadcast doma=
in.
> This is even if at any particular point in time the servers hosting all t=
he
> VMs of that IP subnet are connected to only a subset of these switches. B=
ut
> is it truly necessary, or could the L2 broadcast domain span only the
> switches connected to the servers that presently host VMs of the IP subne=
t ?
>
> Moreover, even if all the access switches need to be part of the same L2
> broadcast domain, the increase in the size of the L2 broadcast domain in =
the
> above scenario is caused by the access switches, not by the number of VMs
> per L2 domain. The difficulies mentioned in the last sentence of the quot=
ed
> paragraph are due to ARP, but ARP is generated by VMs, not by the access
> switches. Given that, how the increase in the size of the L2 broadcast
> domain *due solely to the access switches*, could increase the amount of =
ARP
> traffic that routers have to process ?
>
> Yakov.
>
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Pedro Marques [mailto:pedro.r.marques@gmail.com]
>> > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 1:52 PM
>> > To: Linda Dunbar
>> > Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org; L3VPN WG mailing list; sdnp@lucidvision.com;
>> > armd@ietf.org
>> > Subject: Re: Need your action to review draft-ietf-armd-problem-
>> > statement-00.txt
>> >
>> > Linda,
>> > I'd like to point out that the problem does not need to be solved if
>> > only IP connectivity is required. This I-D:
>> > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-marques-l3vpn-end-system-02
>> > describes a solution in which address resolution is not required
>> > irrespective of the location of the traffic destination. Simply put,
>> > traffic can be routed at each hop.
>> >
>> > As per previous threads in this list, the concept of subnet which is
>> > of no practical usefulness in this space. Since VMs can be randomly
>> distributed across the network the subnet does not provide any
>> > information aggregation value. Thus there is no need to do address
>> > resolution.
>> >
>> > =A0 Pedro.
>> >
>> > On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 11:31 AM, Linda Dunbar
>> > <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>
>> > wrote:
>> > > For those of you who touch upon Data Center networking or server
>> > > virtualization, be it Overlay, VPN4DC, or Application/Software
>> > > driven Controller for Data Center, Address Resolution is something
>> > > Data
>> > Center
>> > > Gateways =A0will encounter because hosts/applications in data
>> > > centers
>> > do
>> > > communicate with peers which are not in the same Overlay, outside
>> > > the
>> > VPN
>> > > domain, or from general public. ARMD has published its WG problem
>> > statement
>> > > draft. Your comments and suggestions are appreciated (send to
>> > > armd@ietf.org).
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Thanks, Linda Dunbar
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > ---
>> > --------------
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
>> > > directories. This draft is a work item of the Address Resolution
>> > > for
>> > Massive
>> > > numbers of hosts in the Data center Working Group of the IETF.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Title =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 : Problem Statement for AR=
MD
>> > >
>> > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Author(s) =A0 =A0 =A0 : Thomas Narten
>> > >
>> > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Filename =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0: draft-ietf-armd-problem-st=
atement-00.txt
>> > >
>> > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Pages =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 : 11
>> > >
>> > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Date =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0: 2011-10-17
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > =A0 =A0This document examines issues related to the massive scaling =
of
>> > data
>> > >
>> > > =A0 =A0centers. =A0Our initial scope is relatively narrow.
>> > > Specifically,
>> > we
>> > >
>> > > =A0 =A0focus on address resolution (ARP and ND) within the data cent=
er.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>> > >
>> > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-armd-problem-
>> > statement-00.txt
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>> > >
>> > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
>> > >
>> > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-armd-problem-stateme
>> > > nt-
>> > 00.txt
>> > >
>> > >
>>
>
>

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Subject: Re: [armd] Need your action to review draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt
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Pedro:=20

In all politeness, let me acknowledge your message. I will respond after =
I
see if Igor (Yahoo) or other DC/Carrier operators will comment on their
viewpoints.

Best wishes,=20

Sue=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Pedro Marques [mailto:pedro.r.marques@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 12:47 PM
To: Susan Hares
Cc: Yakov Rekhter; Linda Dunbar; l2vpn@ietf.org; sdnp@lucidvision.com; =
L3VPN
WG mailing list; armd@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [armd] Need your action to review
draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt

Sue,

I think the following statements capture a common configuration for
small / low-bandwidth (1g) / private DCs:
  - VLANs are used for isolation.
  - These vlans are locally scoped to a pair of aggregation switches.
  - They are statically configured at the access switches.
  - Traffic exchange between vlans is done at the aggregation switches
(often subject to service modules).

The above is not contentious, i presume.

I think that everyone would also agree that:
  - It is highly desirable to be able to have an application (a
process running on a server) to be placed in an arbitrary location of
the DC. (which conflicts with vlan locality).
  - It is expected that the number of application processes that
participate in the same isolation domain will grow significantly (due
to external factors related to application design).
  - It is expected that the bandwidth requirements for severs will
increase by an order of magnitude (along with higher server
utilization).

I hope we all agree so far.

Now from the 2 sets of premises above it does not directly follow that
the answer is to build larger and larger L2 domains. I do understand
that to be a common perception but that is actually not necessary and
imho not useful.

The fundamental misconception is that the application processes (in a
VM or other wise) do need VLANs. They do not. They need connectivity;
both within an inner level of isolation (today's vlan) and to other
services in the data center (which today is routed often subject to
security policies). An example of the later would be a set of database
servers; database servers are often expensive and shared among
different applications.

In order to be able to place any VM anywhere, the VM needs to have
direct connectivity to multiple isolation domains. isolation domains
which are today modeled as L2 and isolation domains that are today
modeled as L3.

The concept of an L2/L3 boundary is not useful if you assume that a VM
can be placed in an arbitrary location. Anywhere you choose to put
that "boundary": top-of-rack, aggregation, etc, you are likely to find
that the boundary gets in the way of the VMs being able to be located
anywhere. At least without causing traffic to cross the core twice
which is a non-starter.

So to actually solve the problem according to requirements one needs
to get rid of the boundary and move to a solution that is all L2 or
all L3. And ARP/ND is really not a relevant problem.

With an "L2" solution tends to come the assumption that there is a
single "isolation" domain... and a single subnet, which doesn't really
cut it. "L3" and specially BGP-based IP/VPNs natively support the
concept of direct traffic exchanges between different isolation
domains, subject to policy.

Even if you do decide to select an L2 approach that limits an
application to a single isolation domain, the L2 mac information will
need to be present at every switch where that L2 VLAN is present. If
you follow an approach where there is core-interface to core-interface
mac-learning (VXLAN for instance) then indeed you do have ARP
broadcasts being used to update forwarding tables. But approaches such
as EVPN can perform learning on the edge interface only eliminating
the need to generate ARP broadcasts.

It is entirely likely that the approaches that attempt to provide for
large broadcast domains already contain a solution for L2 address
discovery. Conversely it is rather unclear that you can address the
ARP/ND scaling issue independently of the design of the L2 solution
itself.

regards,
  Pedro.

On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 10:20 PM, Susan Hares <skh@ndzh.com> wrote:
> Yakov:
>
> We are not trying to justify any definition we have, but to report =
what DC
> operators have given as the problem in an OPS draft.
>
> In many ways, the text has been successful by having you comment on =
this
> point so that operators can consider in depth this scenario.
>
> With all due respect to you as a grand master of word-smithing, let me
> restate some of the argument so that I can attempt to inspire =
discussion.
>
> The "all" in this discussion indicates "all" within this domain which
> crosses the VLANs in the text. The 802.1q VLAN mechanism provides some
> scoping of broadcast and unicast for an L2 grouping. The IP Subset
provides
> a scoping for scoping for IP (L3 grouping). ARP maps the L2 grouping =
to
the
> l3 grouping. The growth in the number of nodes (VM or access) in the
> combined groupings of mapped nodes are the problem.
>
> If you want to restrict nodes within this at L2 or L3, you must find a
means
> to determine the L2 grouping. The mapping of the IP to MAC Address is
scoped
> by the combination of L2/L3 grouping.
>
> So.. at some point the VM or the real nodes reach an "aggregation
grouping"
> at the access switch or the VMs forming an access switch. This =
grouping
> point is stressed by the underlying growth of L2/L3 node combination. =
On
the
> ARMD BOF/List, Manish Karir (Merit) published a study in looking at =
the
ARP
> problem using VMs groupings.
>
> Some large scale operators stated the VM aggregation I described above =
did
> not represent a case widely used. Therefore the discussion focused on =
the
> deployed access switches, servers, and VMs as described in the text.
=A0Please
> refer to past discussion from Igor G. on this list or his drafts on
> solutions/problems. Also, you can refer to NANOG session on this.
>
> Yakov - let me know of I am unclear or just misunderstood your =
discussion
> point. Linda, Manish, and Igor let me know if I was incorrect in =
anything
I
> said.
>
> Hopefully, I've given the discussion a push. If nothing else, it will
>
> Sue
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: armd-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:armd-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of
> Yakov Rekhter
> Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 3:42 PM
> To: Linda Dunbar
> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org; sdnp@lucidvision.com; L3VPN WG mailing list;
> armd@ietf.org; yakov@juniper.net; Pedro Marques
> Subject: Re: [armd] Need your action to review
> draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt
>
> Linda,
>
>> Pedro,
>>
>> You are absolutely right that there is no ARP/ND scaling issue if IP
>> can be extended to hosts. Even if IP can be extended to Access
>> switches, there is not much ARP/ND issues.
>>
>> The draft lists down several common data center network designs, and
>> states that some of the designs don't have ARP/ND scaling issues (but
>> may have other issues for data centers).
>>
>> That is why I encourage people to read the draft and provides
>> comments.
>
> From 4.2 of the draft:
>
> =A04.2. =A0Scenario 2: L3 Terminates at the Aggregation Switch
>
> =A0 In Scenario 2, the L3 network extends only to the aggregation
> =A0 switches (or perhaps to routers that connect to the aggregation
> =A0 switches). =A0The aggregation switches (or the routers that =
connect to
> =A0 multiple aggregation switches) could terminate multiple distinct =
IP
> =A0 subnets (e.g., one per VLAN) or one large IP subnet. =A0In order =
to let
> =A0 hosts belonging to different IP subnets be placed under any access
> =A0 switches, it is necessary for access switches to enable multiple
> =A0 VLANs and aggregation switches to enable some VLANs (or subnets) =
over
> =A0 many physical ports. =A0This configuration breaks the confinement =
of
> =A0 the VLAN's broadcast domain and makes it equivalent to all the =
access
> =A0 switches being part of the same L2 broadcast domain (and IP =
subnet).
> =A0 Thus, this configuration allows VMs to be moved to servers =
connected
> =A0 to other access switches, but increases the size of the L2 =
broadcast
> =A0 domain, which can lead to difficulties outlined below.
>
> This is the scenario that is used to justify the need for large L2 =
domain.
>
> The draft assumes that in order to move a given VM from one server to
> another, where these two servers are connected to different access
switches,
> *all* the access switches must be configured with the VM's IP subnet, =
and
> thus *all* the access switches must be part of the VM's L2 broadcast
domain.
> This is even if at any particular point in time the servers hosting =
all
the
> VMs of that IP subnet are connected to only a subset of these =
switches.
But
> is it truly necessary, or could the L2 broadcast domain span only the
> switches connected to the servers that presently host VMs of the IP =
subnet
?
>
> Moreover, even if all the access switches need to be part of the same =
L2
> broadcast domain, the increase in the size of the L2 broadcast domain =
in
the
> above scenario is caused by the access switches, not by the number of =
VMs
> per L2 domain. The difficulies mentioned in the last sentence of the
quoted
> paragraph are due to ARP, but ARP is generated by VMs, not by the =
access
> switches. Given that, how the increase in the size of the L2 broadcast
> domain *due solely to the access switches*, could increase the amount =
of
ARP
> traffic that routers have to process ?
>
> Yakov.
>
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Pedro Marques [mailto:pedro.r.marques@gmail.com]
>> > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 1:52 PM
>> > To: Linda Dunbar
>> > Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org; L3VPN WG mailing list; sdnp@lucidvision.com;
>> > armd@ietf.org
>> > Subject: Re: Need your action to review draft-ietf-armd-problem-
>> > statement-00.txt
>> >
>> > Linda,
>> > I'd like to point out that the problem does not need to be solved =
if
>> > only IP connectivity is required. This I-D:
>> > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-marques-l3vpn-end-system-02
>> > describes a solution in which address resolution is not required
>> > irrespective of the location of the traffic destination. Simply =
put,
>> > traffic can be routed at each hop.
>> >
>> > As per previous threads in this list, the concept of subnet which =
is
>> > of no practical usefulness in this space. Since VMs can be randomly
>> distributed across the network the subnet does not provide any
>> > information aggregation value. Thus there is no need to do address
>> > resolution.
>> >
>> > =A0 Pedro.
>> >
>> > On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 11:31 AM, Linda Dunbar
>> > <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>
>> > wrote:
>> > > For those of you who touch upon Data Center networking or server
>> > > virtualization, be it Overlay, VPN4DC, or Application/Software
>> > > driven Controller for Data Center, Address Resolution is =
something
>> > > Data
>> > Center
>> > > Gateways =A0will encounter because hosts/applications in data
>> > > centers
>> > do
>> > > communicate with peers which are not in the same Overlay, outside
>> > > the
>> > VPN
>> > > domain, or from general public. ARMD has published its WG problem
>> > statement
>> > > draft. Your comments and suggestions are appreciated (send to
>> > > armd@ietf.org).
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Thanks, Linda Dunbar
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > =
------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > ---
>> > --------------
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line =
Internet-Drafts
>> > > directories. This draft is a work item of the Address Resolution
>> > > for
>> > Massive
>> > > numbers of hosts in the Data center Working Group of the IETF.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Title =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 : Problem Statement for =
ARMD
>> > >
>> > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Author(s) =A0 =A0 =A0 : Thomas Narten
>> > >
>> > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Filename =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0: =
draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt
>> > >
>> > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Pages =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 : 11
>> > >
>> > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Date =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0: 2011-10-17
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > =A0 =A0This document examines issues related to the massive =
scaling of
>> > data
>> > >
>> > > =A0 =A0centers. =A0Our initial scope is relatively narrow.
>> > > Specifically,
>> > we
>> > >
>> > > =A0 =A0focus on address resolution (ARP and ND) within the data =
center.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>> > >
>> > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-armd-problem-
>> > statement-00.txt
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>> > >
>> > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
>> > >
>> > > =
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-armd-problem-stateme
>> > > nt-
>> > 00.txt
>> > >
>> > >
>>
>
>


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Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 02:02:45 +0000
From: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [armd] Need your action to review	draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt
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The concept of an L2/L3 boundary is not useful if you assume that a VM
can be placed in an arbitrary location. Anywhere you choose to put
that "boundary": top-of-rack, aggregation, etc, you are likely to find
that the boundary gets in the way of the VMs being able to be located
anywhere. At least without causing traffic to cross the core twice
which is a non-starter.

<XXH> Agree.

So to actually solve the problem according to requirements one needs
to get rid of the boundary and move to a solution that is all L2 or
all L3. And ARP/ND is really not a relevant problem.

With an "L2" solution tends to come the assumption that there is a
single "isolation" domain... and a single subnet, which doesn't really
cut it. "L3" and specially BGP-based IP/VPNs natively support the
concept of direct traffic exchanges between different isolation
domains, subject to policy.

Even if you do decide to select an L2 approach that limits an
application to a single isolation domain, the L2 mac information will
need to be present at every switch where that L2 VLAN is present. If
you follow an approach where there is core-interface to core-interface
mac-learning (VXLAN for instance) then indeed you do have ARP
broadcasts being used to update forwarding tables. But approaches such
as EVPN can perform learning on the edge interface only eliminating
the need to generate ARP broadcasts.

It is entirely likely that the approaches that attempt to provide for
large broadcast domains already contain a solution for L2 address
discovery. Conversely it is rather unclear that you can address the
ARP/ND scaling issue independently of the design of the L2 solution
itself.

<XXH> Reasonable. However, the ARP cache mechanism is suitble for most MAC-forwarding based DCN solutions (e.g., VPLS) and much helpful for ARP broadcast reduction unless the L2VPN PE function is pushed to the physical server.

Best regards,
Xiaohu


regards,
  Pedro.

On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 10:20 PM, Susan Hares <skh@ndzh.com> wrote:
> Yakov:
>
> We are not trying to justify any definition we have, but to report what DC
> operators have given as the problem in an OPS draft.
>
> In many ways, the text has been successful by having you comment on this
> point so that operators can consider in depth this scenario.
>
> With all due respect to you as a grand master of word-smithing, let me
> restate some of the argument so that I can attempt to inspire discussion.
>
> The "all" in this discussion indicates "all" within this domain which
> crosses the VLANs in the text. The 802.1q VLAN mechanism provides some
> scoping of broadcast and unicast for an L2 grouping. The IP Subset provides
> a scoping for scoping for IP (L3 grouping). ARP maps the L2 grouping to the
> l3 grouping. The growth in the number of nodes (VM or access) in the
> combined groupings of mapped nodes are the problem.
>
> If you want to restrict nodes within this at L2 or L3, you must find a means
> to determine the L2 grouping. The mapping of the IP to MAC Address is scoped
> by the combination of L2/L3 grouping.
>
> So.. at some point the VM or the real nodes reach an "aggregation grouping"
> at the access switch or the VMs forming an access switch. This grouping
> point is stressed by the underlying growth of L2/L3 node combination. On the
> ARMD BOF/List, Manish Karir (Merit) published a study in looking at the ARP
> problem using VMs groupings.
>
> Some large scale operators stated the VM aggregation I described above did
> not represent a case widely used. Therefore the discussion focused on the
> deployed access switches, servers, and VMs as described in the text.  Please
> refer to past discussion from Igor G. on this list or his drafts on
> solutions/problems. Also, you can refer to NANOG session on this.
>
> Yakov - let me know of I am unclear or just misunderstood your discussion
> point. Linda, Manish, and Igor let me know if I was incorrect in anything I
> said.
>
> Hopefully, I've given the discussion a push. If nothing else, it will
>
> Sue
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: armd-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:armd-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Yakov Rekhter
> Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 3:42 PM
> To: Linda Dunbar
> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org; sdnp@lucidvision.com; L3VPN WG mailing list;
> armd@ietf.org; yakov@juniper.net; Pedro Marques
> Subject: Re: [armd] Need your action to review
> draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt
>
> Linda,
>
>> Pedro,
>>
>> You are absolutely right that there is no ARP/ND scaling issue if IP
>> can be extended to hosts. Even if IP can be extended to Access
>> switches, there is not much ARP/ND issues.
>>
>> The draft lists down several common data center network designs, and
>> states that some of the designs don't have ARP/ND scaling issues (but
>> may have other issues for data centers).
>>
>> That is why I encourage people to read the draft and provides
>> comments.
>
> From 4.2 of the draft:
>
>  4.2.  Scenario 2: L3 Terminates at the Aggregation Switch
>
>   In Scenario 2, the L3 network extends only to the aggregation
>   switches (or perhaps to routers that connect to the aggregation
>   switches).  The aggregation switches (or the routers that connect to
>   multiple aggregation switches) could terminate multiple distinct IP
>   subnets (e.g., one per VLAN) or one large IP subnet.  In order to let
>   hosts belonging to different IP subnets be placed under any access
>   switches, it is necessary for access switches to enable multiple
>   VLANs and aggregation switches to enable some VLANs (or subnets) over
>   many physical ports.  This configuration breaks the confinement of
>   the VLAN's broadcast domain and makes it equivalent to all the access
>   switches being part of the same L2 broadcast domain (and IP subnet).
>   Thus, this configuration allows VMs to be moved to servers connected
>   to other access switches, but increases the size of the L2 broadcast
>   domain, which can lead to difficulties outlined below.
>
> This is the scenario that is used to justify the need for large L2 domain.
>
> The draft assumes that in order to move a given VM from one server to
> another, where these two servers are connected to different access switches,
> *all* the access switches must be configured with the VM's IP subnet, and
> thus *all* the access switches must be part of the VM's L2 broadcast domain.
> This is even if at any particular point in time the servers hosting all the
> VMs of that IP subnet are connected to only a subset of these switches. But
> is it truly necessary, or could the L2 broadcast domain span only the
> switches connected to the servers that presently host VMs of the IP subnet ?
>
> Moreover, even if all the access switches need to be part of the same L2
> broadcast domain, the increase in the size of the L2 broadcast domain in the
> above scenario is caused by the access switches, not by the number of VMs
> per L2 domain. The difficulies mentioned in the last sentence of the quoted
> paragraph are due to ARP, but ARP is generated by VMs, not by the access
> switches. Given that, how the increase in the size of the L2 broadcast
> domain *due solely to the access switches*, could increase the amount of ARP
> traffic that routers have to process ?
>
> Yakov.
>
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Pedro Marques [mailto:pedro.r.marques@gmail.com]
>> > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 1:52 PM
>> > To: Linda Dunbar
>> > Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org; L3VPN WG mailing list; sdnp@lucidvision.com;
>> > armd@ietf.org
>> > Subject: Re: Need your action to review draft-ietf-armd-problem-
>> > statement-00.txt
>> >
>> > Linda,
>> > I'd like to point out that the problem does not need to be solved if
>> > only IP connectivity is required. This I-D:
>> > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-marques-l3vpn-end-system-02
>> > describes a solution in which address resolution is not required
>> > irrespective of the location of the traffic destination. Simply put,
>> > traffic can be routed at each hop.
>> >
>> > As per previous threads in this list, the concept of subnet which is
>> > of no practical usefulness in this space. Since VMs can be randomly
>> distributed across the network the subnet does not provide any
>> > information aggregation value. Thus there is no need to do address
>> > resolution.
>> >
>> >   Pedro.
>> >
>> > On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 11:31 AM, Linda Dunbar
>> > <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>
>> > wrote:
>> > > For those of you who touch upon Data Center networking or server
>> > > virtualization, be it Overlay, VPN4DC, or Application/Software
>> > > driven Controller for Data Center, Address Resolution is something
>> > > Data
>> > Center
>> > > Gateways  will encounter because hosts/applications in data
>> > > centers
>> > do
>> > > communicate with peers which are not in the same Overlay, outside
>> > > the
>> > VPN
>> > > domain, or from general public. ARMD has published its WG problem
>> > statement
>> > > draft. Your comments and suggestions are appreciated (send to
>> > > armd@ietf.org).
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Thanks, Linda Dunbar
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > ---
>> > --------------
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
>> > > directories. This draft is a work item of the Address Resolution
>> > > for
>> > Massive
>> > > numbers of hosts in the Data center Working Group of the IETF.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >         Title           : Problem Statement for ARMD
>> > >
>> > >         Author(s)       : Thomas Narten
>> > >
>> > >         Filename        : draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt
>> > >
>> > >         Pages           : 11
>> > >
>> > >         Date            : 2011-10-17
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >    This document examines issues related to the massive scaling of
>> > data
>> > >
>> > >    centers.  Our initial scope is relatively narrow.
>> > > Specifically,
>> > we
>> > >
>> > >    focus on address resolution (ARP and ND) within the data center.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>> > >
>> > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-armd-problem-
>> > statement-00.txt
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>> > >
>> > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
>> > >
>> > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-armd-problem-stateme
>> > > nt-
>> > 00.txt
>> > >
>> > >
>>
>
>
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From kireeti@juniper.net  Tue Nov 15 18:04:40 2011
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From: Kireeti Kompella <kireeti@juniper.net>
To: "armd@ietf.org" <armd@ietf.org>
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To follow up my comments yesterday, I think I understand somewhat better wh=
y the 3 tier network "fits most scenarios" (as someone commented at the mik=
e) even if those scenarios are not really 3 tier.  In fact, the so-called 3=
 tier network omits the hosts, which add one (sans virtualization) or two (=
vSwitch + VMs) more tiers that are of some slight interest to ARMD.

The key appears to be that the 3 tier network captures the L2-L3 split that=
 is all so crucial to the ARMD discussion.  Forgive me if this is obvious t=
o all, or has been done to death already on this list.  The "PE-P" split do=
esn't quite capture this.  The L2-L3 split is better captured by three tier=
s: VM/host; L2 up to L2-L3 boundary; and L3.  The L2 bit can be as big as t=
he entire network, and as small as two entities (VM/host + access switch). =
 Correspondingly, the L3 bit can be as small as nothing, or as big as prett=
y much the entire DC network.

What that says to me is that the canonical picture ("Generalized 3 Layer Da=
ta Center Network Architecture" or "typical topology"), from ARMD's pov per=
haps should delineate this split, rather than the physical topology.  The p=
icture in my head (which I am reluctant to depict in an ASCII diagram; atta=
ched is a PDF) is an L3 "core" bubble, surrounded by a number of L2 bubbles=
, each divided into what Benson referred to as "resolution domains" (instan=
tiated today most often as VLANs).  This level of abstraction hopefully foc=
uses on ARMD's central problem, and doesn't get hung up in details that don=
't matter as much.

Kireeti.


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From yakov@juniper.net  Tue Nov 15 11:22:24 2011
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To: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>
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From: Yakov Rekhter <yakov@juniper.net>
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Cc: "l2vpn@ietf.org" <l2vpn@ietf.org>, "sdnp@lucidvision.com" <sdnp@lucidvision.com>, L3VPN WG mailing list <l3vpn@ietf.org>, armd@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [armd] Need your action to review draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt
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Linda,

> For those of you who touch upon Data Center networking or server
> virtualization, be it Overlay, VPN4DC, or Application/Software
> driven Controller for Data Center, Address Resolution is something
> Data Center Gateways  will encounter because hosts/applications
> in data centers do communicate with peers which are not in the same
> Overlay, outside the VPN domain, or from general public. ARMD has
> published its WG problem statement draft. Your comments and suggestions
> are app reciated (send to armd@ietf.org<mailto:armd@ietf.org>).

Should the overhead due to the broadcast unknown be considered as yet
another "pain point" associated with large L2 domains ?

Yakov.
 
> 
> Thanks, Linda Dunbar
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
> 
> 
> 
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directorie
s. This draft is a work item of the Address Resolution for Massive numbers of h
osts in the Data center Working Group of the IETF.
> 
> 
> 
>         Title           : Problem Statement for ARMD
> 
>         Author(s)       : Thomas Narten
> 
>         Filename        : draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt
> 
>         Pages           : 11
> 
>         Date            : 2011-10-17
> 
> 
> 
>    This document examines issues related to the massive scaling of data
> 
>    centers.  Our initial scope is relatively narrow.  Specifically, we
> 
>    focus on address resolution (ARP and ND) within the data center.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> 
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt
> 
> 
> 
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> 
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> 
> 
> 
> This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
> 
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt
> 
> 
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> <div class=3D"WordSection1">
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">For those of you who t=
> ouch upon Data Center networking or server virtualization, be it Overlay, V=
> PN4DC, or Application/Software driven Controller for Data Center, Address R=
> esolution is something Data Center Gateways
>  &nbsp;will encounter because hosts/applications in data centers do communi=
> cate with peers which are not in the same Overlay, outside the VPN domain, =
> or from general public. ARMD has published its WG problem statement draft. =
> Your comments and suggestions are appreciated
>  (send to <a href=3D"mailto:armd@ietf.org">armd@ietf.org</a>). <o:p></o:p><=
> /span></p>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
> n></p>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Thanks, Linda Dunbar<o=
> :p></o:p></span></p>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
> n></p>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">----------------------=
> -------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></s=
> pan></p>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
> n></p>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
> <pre>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts dir=
> ectories. This draft is a work item of the Address Resolution for Massive n=
> umbers of hosts in the Data center Working Group of the IETF.<o:p></o:p></p=
> re>
> <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
> <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Title&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
> p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : Problem Statement for ARMD<o:p></o=
> :p></pre>
> <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Author(s)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : Thomas Narten<o:p></o:p></pre>
> <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Filename&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
> nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt<o:p></o:=
> p></pre>
> <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Pages&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
> p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : 11<o:p></o:p></pre>
> <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Date&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
> ;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : 2011-10-17<o:p></o:p></pre>
> <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
> <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; This document examines issues related to the massive scal=
> ing of data<o:p></o:p></pre>
> <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; centers.&nbsp; Our initial scope is relatively narrow.&nb=
> sp; Specifically, we<o:p></o:p></pre>
> <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; focus on address resolution (ARP and ND) within the data =
> center.<o:p></o:p></pre>
> <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
> <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
> <pre>A URL for this Internet-Draft is:<o:p></o:p></pre>
> <pre><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-armd-problem=
> -statement-00.txt">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-armd-prob=
> lem-statement-00.txt</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
> <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
> <pre>Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:<o:p></o:p></pr=
> e>
> <pre><a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/int=
> ernet-drafts/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
> <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
> <pre>This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:<o:p></o:p></pre>
> <pre><a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-armd-problem-=
> statement-00.txt">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-armd-proble=
> m-statement-00.txt</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
> </div>
> </body>
> </html>
> 
> --Boundary_(ID_2xYEQabSJUJeXxiogMJ0fQ)--
> 
> --Boundary_(ID_pqxZHOFXGA69gJuhLyEG+A)
> Content-id: <318D3282CFCD0C45A8C99283FF38289A@huawei.com>
> Content-type: text/plain; name=ATT00001.txt
> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
> Content-disposition: attachment; filename=ATT00001.txt; size=127;
>  creation-date="Fri, 04 Nov 2011 15:30:31 GMT";
>  modification-date="Fri, 04 Nov 2011 15:30:31 GMT"
> Content-description: ATT00001.txt
> 
> _______________________________________________
> armd mailing list
> armd@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/armd
> 
> --Boundary_(ID_pqxZHOFXGA69gJuhLyEG+A)--

From linda.dunbar@huawei.com  Tue Nov 15 18:16:29 2011
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Yakov, 

You are absolutely right. We will make sure it is properly captured in the document. 

Thanks, Linda


> -----Original Message-----
> 
> Should the overhead due to the broadcast unknown be considered as yet
> another "pain point" associated with large L2 domains ?
> 
> Yakov.
> 

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Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 03:27:33 +0000
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Subject: Re: [armd] Need your action to review	draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt
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From kireeti@juniper.net  Tue Nov 15 19:33:39 2011
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From: Kireeti Kompella <kireeti@juniper.net>
To: "armd@ietf.org" <armd@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 19:30:08 -0800
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Subject: [armd] pain points ...
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The discussion of current pain points is important; however, we didn't just=
 arrive here (well, I did; but most of you have been doing this a while).  =
What that means is that the current pain points are (to some extent) the re=
sult of "solving" earlier pain points.  Stepping back might be useful.

Freely re-interpreting Pedro, the tussle is between Layer 2 and Layer 3.  H=
ere's why running the entire DC as a single L2 domain is (perceived as bein=
g) good:
1. L2 is "easy" -- plug-n-play, easy to configure, easy to understand, simp=
le protocols.
2. L2 has a simple technique of network isolation (i.e., VLAN).
3. L2 isolation domains can be expanded and contracted very easily (add a V=
LAN to a port; add a host to a VLAN).
4. VMotion (for those who care) only works in L2 (today).
5. (Legacy) apps are written to run on a LAN (i.e., they expect clients and=
 servers to live on the same subnet; they use LAN-wide services, e.g., DHCP=
).
6. Storage attaches easily at L2 (well, FC, FCoE, NAS, etc.) [this is NOT i=
ntended to start a FCoE vs. iSCSI war!]

Add to this the desire for "fungibility" of DC resources -- as Pedro put it=
, the desire to place a VM anywhere, and subsequently move it anywhere else=
; same for storage, firewalls, LBs, etc.  All this drives to _really_ large=
 L2 domains.  And there begin new pain points =85

So, we need, at one level, to address the pain points of massive DCs today.=
  But at another level, we need to address the underlying pain points (real=
 and perceived).  I realize fully that I'm stepping off the cliff of ARMD's=
 charter, but we (IETF) should do what's right, not just what's in this or =
that WG's charter.  And I agree with Pedro that a large part of that is mov=
ing more fully to L3.

Kireeti.


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From skh@ndzh.com  Tue Nov 15 20:29:58 2011
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Kireeti: 

Could you update your message to include newer protocols at layer 2 control
plane SPBV and SPBM protocols and/or TRILL?  These provide multipath at
Layer 2, and large controllable Layer 2.   

Just a note, we have been strongly encouraged by Ron to not go outside our
charter until we finish our work at this point. I will follow Ron's
instructions.   

Sue 


-----Original Message-----
From: armd-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:armd-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Kireeti Kompella
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 10:30 PM
To: armd@ietf.org
Subject: [armd] pain points ...

The discussion of current pain points is important; however, we didn't just
arrive here (well, I did; but most of you have been doing this a while).
What that means is that the current pain points are (to some extent) the
result of "solving" earlier pain points.  Stepping back might be useful.

Freely re-interpreting Pedro, the tussle is between Layer 2 and Layer 3.
Here's why running the entire DC as a single L2 domain is (perceived as
being) good:
1. L2 is "easy" -- plug-n-play, easy to configure, easy to understand,
simple protocols.
2. L2 has a simple technique of network isolation (i.e., VLAN).
3. L2 isolation domains can be expanded and contracted very easily (add a
VLAN to a port; add a host to a VLAN).
4. VMotion (for those who care) only works in L2 (today).
5. (Legacy) apps are written to run on a LAN (i.e., they expect clients and
servers to live on the same subnet; they use LAN-wide services, e.g., DHCP).
6. Storage attaches easily at L2 (well, FC, FCoE, NAS, etc.) [this is NOT
intended to start a FCoE vs. iSCSI war!]

Add to this the desire for "fungibility" of DC resources -- as Pedro put it,
the desire to place a VM anywhere, and subsequently move it anywhere else;
same for storage, firewalls, LBs, etc.  All this drives to _really_ large L2
domains.  And there begin new pain points .

So, we need, at one level, to address the pain points of massive DCs today.
But at another level, we need to address the underlying pain points (real
and perceived).  I realize fully that I'm stepping off the cliff of ARMD's
charter, but we (IETF) should do what's right, not just what's in this or
that WG's charter.  And I agree with Pedro that a large part of that is
moving more fully to L3.

Kireeti.

_______________________________________________
armd mailing list
armd@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/armd


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From rbonica@juniper.net  Wed Nov 16 01:19:55 2011
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From: Ronald Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
To: Susan Hares <skh@ndzh.com>, Kireeti Kompella <kireeti@juniper.net>, "armd@ietf.org" <armd@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 04:18:05 -0500
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Folks,

As with any working group, I have instructed ARMD to stay within its charte=
r.

However, during this IETF, I have seen several WGs and BoFs trying to ident=
ify the pain points within the data center. This work should probably be ce=
ntralized in one place. Over the next few weeks, I will seek to determine w=
here that work should be done.

                                                         Ron

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Susan Hares [mailto:skh@ndzh.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 11:30 PM
> To: Kireeti Kompella; armd@ietf.org
> Cc: Ronald Bonica
> Subject: RE: [armd] pain points ...
>=20
> Kireeti:
>=20
> Could you update your message to include newer protocols at layer 2
> control
> plane SPBV and SPBM protocols and/or TRILL?  These provide multipath at
> Layer 2, and large controllable Layer 2.
>=20
> Just a note, we have been strongly encouraged by Ron to not go outside
> our
> charter until we finish our work at this point. I will follow Ron's
> instructions.
>=20
> Sue
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: armd-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:armd-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Kireeti Kompella
> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 10:30 PM
> To: armd@ietf.org
> Subject: [armd] pain points ...
>=20
> The discussion of current pain points is important; however, we didn't
> just
> arrive here (well, I did; but most of you have been doing this a
> while).
> What that means is that the current pain points are (to some extent)
> the
> result of "solving" earlier pain points.  Stepping back might be
> useful.
>=20
> Freely re-interpreting Pedro, the tussle is between Layer 2 and Layer
> 3.
> Here's why running the entire DC as a single L2 domain is (perceived as
> being) good:
> 1. L2 is "easy" -- plug-n-play, easy to configure, easy to understand,
> simple protocols.
> 2. L2 has a simple technique of network isolation (i.e., VLAN).
> 3. L2 isolation domains can be expanded and contracted very easily (add
> a
> VLAN to a port; add a host to a VLAN).
> 4. VMotion (for those who care) only works in L2 (today).
> 5. (Legacy) apps are written to run on a LAN (i.e., they expect clients
> and
> servers to live on the same subnet; they use LAN-wide services, e.g.,
> DHCP).
> 6. Storage attaches easily at L2 (well, FC, FCoE, NAS, etc.) [this is
> NOT
> intended to start a FCoE vs. iSCSI war!]
>=20
> Add to this the desire for "fungibility" of DC resources -- as Pedro
> put it,
> the desire to place a VM anywhere, and subsequently move it anywhere
> else;
> same for storage, firewalls, LBs, etc.  All this drives to _really_
> large L2
> domains.  And there begin new pain points .
>=20
> So, we need, at one level, to address the pain points of massive DCs
> today.
> But at another level, we need to address the underlying pain points
> (real
> and perceived).  I realize fully that I'm stepping off the cliff of
> ARMD's
> charter, but we (IETF) should do what's right, not just what's in this
> or
> that WG's charter.  And I agree with Pedro that a large part of that is
> moving more fully to L3.
>=20
> Kireeti.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> armd mailing list
> armd@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/armd


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Subject: Re: [armd] pain points ...
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Ron:

Being slow of understanding, does this mean you are "ok" with me discussing
this issues on ARMD until you find another place?

Sue 

-----Original Message-----
From: armd-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:armd-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Ronald Bonica
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 4:18 AM
To: Susan Hares; Kireeti Kompella; armd@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [armd] pain points ...

Folks,

As with any working group, I have instructed ARMD to stay within its
charter.

However, during this IETF, I have seen several WGs and BoFs trying to
identify the pain points within the data center. This work should probably
be centralized in one place. Over the next few weeks, I will seek to
determine where that work should be done.


                                                         Ron

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Susan Hares [mailto:skh@ndzh.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 11:30 PM
> To: Kireeti Kompella; armd@ietf.org
> Cc: Ronald Bonica
> Subject: RE: [armd] pain points ...
> 
> Kireeti:
> 
> Could you update your message to include newer protocols at layer 2
> control
> plane SPBV and SPBM protocols and/or TRILL?  These provide multipath at
> Layer 2, and large controllable Layer 2.
> 
> Just a note, we have been strongly encouraged by Ron to not go outside
> our
> charter until we finish our work at this point. I will follow Ron's
> instructions.
> 
> Sue
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: armd-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:armd-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Kireeti Kompella
> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 10:30 PM
> To: armd@ietf.org
> Subject: [armd] pain points ...
> 
> The discussion of current pain points is important; however, we didn't
> just
> arrive here (well, I did; but most of you have been doing this a
> while).
> What that means is that the current pain points are (to some extent)
> the
> result of "solving" earlier pain points.  Stepping back might be
> useful.
> 
> Freely re-interpreting Pedro, the tussle is between Layer 2 and Layer
> 3.
> Here's why running the entire DC as a single L2 domain is (perceived as
> being) good:
> 1. L2 is "easy" -- plug-n-play, easy to configure, easy to understand,
> simple protocols.
> 2. L2 has a simple technique of network isolation (i.e., VLAN).
> 3. L2 isolation domains can be expanded and contracted very easily (add
> a
> VLAN to a port; add a host to a VLAN).
> 4. VMotion (for those who care) only works in L2 (today).
> 5. (Legacy) apps are written to run on a LAN (i.e., they expect clients
> and
> servers to live on the same subnet; they use LAN-wide services, e.g.,
> DHCP).
> 6. Storage attaches easily at L2 (well, FC, FCoE, NAS, etc.) [this is
> NOT
> intended to start a FCoE vs. iSCSI war!]
> 
> Add to this the desire for "fungibility" of DC resources -- as Pedro
> put it,
> the desire to place a VM anywhere, and subsequently move it anywhere
> else;
> same for storage, firewalls, LBs, etc.  All this drives to _really_
> large L2
> domains.  And there begin new pain points .
> 
> So, we need, at one level, to address the pain points of massive DCs
> today.
> But at another level, we need to address the underlying pain points
> (real
> and perceived).  I realize fully that I'm stepping off the cliff of
> ARMD's
> charter, but we (IETF) should do what's right, not just what's in this
> or
> that WG's charter.  And I agree with Pedro that a large part of that is
> moving more fully to L3.
> 
> Kireeti.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> armd mailing list
> armd@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/armd

_______________________________________________
armd mailing list
armd@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/armd


From rbonica@juniper.net  Wed Nov 16 17:58:53 2011
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From: Ronald Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
To: Susan Hares <skh@ndzh.com>, Kireeti Kompella <kireeti@juniper.net>, "armd@ietf.org" <armd@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 20:51:40 -0500
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Sue,

For the time being, please proceed with the discussion. In the next week or=
 so, we will figure out where the discussion needs to be.

                                 Ron


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Susan Hares [mailto:skh@ndzh.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 6:06 PM
> To: Ronald Bonica; Kireeti Kompella; armd@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [armd] pain points ...
>=20
> Ron:
>=20
> Being slow of understanding, does this mean you are "ok" with me
> discussing
> this issues on ARMD until you find another place?
>=20
> Sue
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: armd-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:armd-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Ronald Bonica
> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 4:18 AM
> To: Susan Hares; Kireeti Kompella; armd@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [armd] pain points ...
>=20
> Folks,
>=20
> As with any working group, I have instructed ARMD to stay within its
> charter.
>=20
> However, during this IETF, I have seen several WGs and BoFs trying to
> identify the pain points within the data center. This work should
> probably
> be centralized in one place. Over the next few weeks, I will seek to
> determine where that work should be done.
>=20
>=20
>                                                          Ron
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Susan Hares [mailto:skh@ndzh.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 11:30 PM
> > To: Kireeti Kompella; armd@ietf.org
> > Cc: Ronald Bonica
> > Subject: RE: [armd] pain points ...
> >
> > Kireeti:
> >
> > Could you update your message to include newer protocols at layer 2
> > control
> > plane SPBV and SPBM protocols and/or TRILL?  These provide multipath
> at
> > Layer 2, and large controllable Layer 2.
> >
> > Just a note, we have been strongly encouraged by Ron to not go
> outside
> > our
> > charter until we finish our work at this point. I will follow Ron's
> > instructions.
> >
> > Sue
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: armd-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:armd-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of
> > Kireeti Kompella
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 10:30 PM
> > To: armd@ietf.org
> > Subject: [armd] pain points ...
> >
> > The discussion of current pain points is important; however, we
> didn't
> > just
> > arrive here (well, I did; but most of you have been doing this a
> > while).
> > What that means is that the current pain points are (to some extent)
> > the
> > result of "solving" earlier pain points.  Stepping back might be
> > useful.
> >
> > Freely re-interpreting Pedro, the tussle is between Layer 2 and Layer
> > 3.
> > Here's why running the entire DC as a single L2 domain is (perceived
> as
> > being) good:
> > 1. L2 is "easy" -- plug-n-play, easy to configure, easy to
> understand,
> > simple protocols.
> > 2. L2 has a simple technique of network isolation (i.e., VLAN).
> > 3. L2 isolation domains can be expanded and contracted very easily
> (add
> > a
> > VLAN to a port; add a host to a VLAN).
> > 4. VMotion (for those who care) only works in L2 (today).
> > 5. (Legacy) apps are written to run on a LAN (i.e., they expect
> clients
> > and
> > servers to live on the same subnet; they use LAN-wide services, e.g.,
> > DHCP).
> > 6. Storage attaches easily at L2 (well, FC, FCoE, NAS, etc.) [this is
> > NOT
> > intended to start a FCoE vs. iSCSI war!]
> >
> > Add to this the desire for "fungibility" of DC resources -- as Pedro
> > put it,
> > the desire to place a VM anywhere, and subsequently move it anywhere
> > else;
> > same for storage, firewalls, LBs, etc.  All this drives to _really_
> > large L2
> > domains.  And there begin new pain points .
> >
> > So, we need, at one level, to address the pain points of massive DCs
> > today.
> > But at another level, we need to address the underlying pain points
> > (real
> > and perceived).  I realize fully that I'm stepping off the cliff of
> > ARMD's
> > charter, but we (IETF) should do what's right, not just what's in
> this
> > or
> > that WG's charter.  And I agree with Pedro that a large part of that
> is
> > moving more fully to L3.
> >
> > Kireeti.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > armd mailing list
> > armd@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/armd
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> armd mailing list
> armd@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/armd


From warren@kumari.net  Sat Nov 19 09:41:02 2011
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Subject: Re: [armd] Need your action to review draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt
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On Nov 16, 2011, at 2:57 AM, Susan Hares wrote:

> Pedro:=20
>=20
> In all politeness, let me acknowledge your message. I will respond =
after I
> see if Igor (Yahoo) or other DC/Carrier operators will comment on =
their
> viewpoints.

Commenting (onna plane back from NRT->SFO so expect some decoherence.)

>=20
> Best wishes,=20
>=20
> Sue=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pedro Marques [mailto:pedro.r.marques@gmail.com]=20
> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 12:47 PM
> To: Susan Hares
> Cc: Yakov Rekhter; Linda Dunbar; l2vpn@ietf.org; sdnp@lucidvision.com; =
L3VPN
> WG mailing list; armd@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [armd] Need your action to review
> draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt
>=20
> Sue,
>=20
> I think the following statements capture a common configuration for
> small / low-bandwidth (1g) / private DCs:
>  - VLANs are used for isolation.
>  - These vlans are locally scoped to a pair of aggregation switches.
>  - They are statically configured at the access switches.
>  - Traffic exchange between vlans is done at the aggregation switches
> (often subject to service modules).
>=20
> The above is not contentious, i presume.

Nope, not contentious (I personally would have worded bullets 2 and 3 as =
one ("configured on the switching infrastructure") to better cover the =
folk who collapse the aggregation / access into one device, etc...
>=20
> I think that everyone would also agree that:
>  - It is highly desirable to be able to have an application (a
> process running on a server) to be placed in an arbitrary location of
> the DC. (which conflicts with vlan locality).
>  - It is expected that the number of application processes that
> participate in the same isolation domain will grow significantly (due
> to external factors related to application design).
>  - It is expected that the bandwidth requirements for severs will
> increase by an order of magnitude (along with higher server
> utilization).
>=20
> I hope we all agree so far.

Mostly=85.

I question bullet 2 and the relevance to the argument, but not =
important...

>=20
> Now from the 2 sets of premises above it does not directly follow that
> the answer is to build larger and larger L2 domains.

Fully, 100% agree.

> I do understand
> that to be a common perception but that is actually not necessary and
> imho not useful.
>=20
> The fundamental misconception is that the application processes (in a
> VM or other wise) do need VLANs. They do not. They need connectivity;
> both within an inner level of isolation (today's vlan) and to other
> services in the data center (which today is routed often subject to
> security policies). An example of the later would be a set of database
> servers; database servers are often expensive and shared among
> different applications.
>=20
> In order to be able to place any VM anywhere, the VM needs to have
> direct connectivity to multiple isolation domains. isolation domains
> which are today modeled as L2 and isolation domains that are today
> modeled as L3.
>=20
> The concept of an L2/L3 boundary is not useful if you assume that a VM
> can be placed in an arbitrary location. Anywhere you choose to put
> that "boundary": top-of-rack, aggregation, etc, you are likely to find
> that the boundary gets in the way of the VMs being able to be located
> anywhere. At least without causing traffic to cross the core twice
> which is a non-starter.

Not quite sure where the "crossing the core twice" pops up, but sure...

>=20
> So to actually solve the problem according to requirements one needs
> to get rid of the boundary and move to a solution that is all L2 or
> all L3.

Have to disagree here -- a hybrid approach with small L2 domains also =
solves the issue. Not really pushing this, just a sayin'...

> And ARP/ND is really not a relevant problem.

In *this* design, with this set of problems and solutions, sure.
If you have (e.g) already built your datacenter with 4 stinking huge L3 =
(or L2) core switches and O(1000) ToR switches you may (do?) have ARP/ND =
issues. Waving this away with the "Doctor, doctor" argument, while =
tempting, doesn't actually solve the issue=85.

>=20
> With an "L2" solution tends to come the assumption that there is a
> single "isolation" domain... and a single subnet, which doesn't really
> cut it.

But, again, some folk have built to this design, and are familiar with =
this design, and like this design, and have shown the ability to =
actually operate this design at scale. It works for them and declaring =
their design invalid because it doesn't match your (and, frankly my) =
views of how to build things also doesn't cut it...

> "L3" and specially BGP-based IP/VPNs natively support the
> concept of direct traffic exchanges between different isolation
> domains, subject to policy.

As do many other overlay / tunneling solutions, and better design of end =
applications (why exactly to customers purchasing VMs / machines in a =
datacenter want all of their machines in the same "network"? Largely =
because A: this is how they view the world and have the $$$ and B: some =
of their apps want the things they talk to in the same subnet=85.)

>=20
> Even if you do decide to select an L2 approach that limits an
> application to a single isolation domain, the L2 mac information will
> need to be present at every switch where that L2 VLAN is present. If
> you follow an approach where there is core-interface to core-interface
> mac-learning (VXLAN for instance) then indeed you do have ARP
> broadcasts being used to update forwarding tables. But approaches such
> as EVPN can perform learning on the edge interface only eliminating
> the need to generate ARP broadcasts.
>=20
> It is entirely likely that the approaches that attempt to provide for
> large broadcast domains already contain a solution for L2 address
> discovery. Conversely it is rather unclear that you can address the
> ARP/ND scaling issue independently of the design of the L2 solution
> itself.

Hmmm. "unclear" is a squishy word -- I think that the ARP/ND scaling =
issue *can* be addressed independently of the design of the L2 solution =
-- for example, I can statically configure all ARP on all hosts in a =
arbitrary large L2 domain...

I guess in summary I largely agree with your mail, but feel that the ARP =
scaling (and overlay ideas (and datacenter architecture)) questions are =
worth addressing.
While simply waving a magic wand and telling folk who have architectured =
their datacenter as L2 that they are "doing it wrong" is fun (and Lord =
knows I've done this and had some good fights^W debates with at least =
one of the other active folk on this list) they may have valid reasons =
for needing their design=85

W


>=20
> regards,
>  Pedro.
>=20
> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 10:20 PM, Susan Hares <skh@ndzh.com> wrote:
>> Yakov:
>>=20
>> We are not trying to justify any definition we have, but to report =
what DC
>> operators have given as the problem in an OPS draft.
>>=20
>> In many ways, the text has been successful by having you comment on =
this
>> point so that operators can consider in depth this scenario.
>>=20
>> With all due respect to you as a grand master of word-smithing, let =
me
>> restate some of the argument so that I can attempt to inspire =
discussion.
>>=20
>> The "all" in this discussion indicates "all" within this domain which
>> crosses the VLANs in the text. The 802.1q VLAN mechanism provides =
some
>> scoping of broadcast and unicast for an L2 grouping. The IP Subset
> provides
>> a scoping for scoping for IP (L3 grouping). ARP maps the L2 grouping =
to
> the
>> l3 grouping. The growth in the number of nodes (VM or access) in the
>> combined groupings of mapped nodes are the problem.
>>=20
>> If you want to restrict nodes within this at L2 or L3, you must find =
a
> means
>> to determine the L2 grouping. The mapping of the IP to MAC Address is
> scoped
>> by the combination of L2/L3 grouping.
>>=20
>> So.. at some point the VM or the real nodes reach an "aggregation
> grouping"
>> at the access switch or the VMs forming an access switch. This =
grouping
>> point is stressed by the underlying growth of L2/L3 node combination. =
On
> the
>> ARMD BOF/List, Manish Karir (Merit) published a study in looking at =
the
> ARP
>> problem using VMs groupings.
>>=20
>> Some large scale operators stated the VM aggregation I described =
above did
>> not represent a case widely used. Therefore the discussion focused on =
the
>> deployed access switches, servers, and VMs as described in the text.
>  Please
>> refer to past discussion from Igor G. on this list or his drafts on
>> solutions/problems. Also, you can refer to NANOG session on this.
>>=20
>> Yakov - let me know of I am unclear or just misunderstood your =
discussion
>> point. Linda, Manish, and Igor let me know if I was incorrect in =
anything
> I
>> said.
>>=20
>> Hopefully, I've given the discussion a push. If nothing else, it will
>>=20
>> Sue
>>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: armd-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:armd-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of
>> Yakov Rekhter
>> Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 3:42 PM
>> To: Linda Dunbar
>> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org; sdnp@lucidvision.com; L3VPN WG mailing list;
>> armd@ietf.org; yakov@juniper.net; Pedro Marques
>> Subject: Re: [armd] Need your action to review
>> draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt
>>=20
>> Linda,
>>=20
>>> Pedro,
>>>=20
>>> You are absolutely right that there is no ARP/ND scaling issue if IP
>>> can be extended to hosts. Even if IP can be extended to Access
>>> switches, there is not much ARP/ND issues.
>>>=20
>>> The draft lists down several common data center network designs, and
>>> states that some of the designs don't have ARP/ND scaling issues =
(but
>>> may have other issues for data centers).
>>>=20
>>> That is why I encourage people to read the draft and provides
>>> comments.
>>=20
>> =46rom 4.2 of the draft:
>>=20
>>  4.2.  Scenario 2: L3 Terminates at the Aggregation Switch
>>=20
>>   In Scenario 2, the L3 network extends only to the aggregation
>>   switches (or perhaps to routers that connect to the aggregation
>>   switches).  The aggregation switches (or the routers that connect =
to
>>   multiple aggregation switches) could terminate multiple distinct IP
>>   subnets (e.g., one per VLAN) or one large IP subnet.  In order to =
let
>>   hosts belonging to different IP subnets be placed under any access
>>   switches, it is necessary for access switches to enable multiple
>>   VLANs and aggregation switches to enable some VLANs (or subnets) =
over
>>   many physical ports.  This configuration breaks the confinement of
>>   the VLAN's broadcast domain and makes it equivalent to all the =
access
>>   switches being part of the same L2 broadcast domain (and IP =
subnet).
>>   Thus, this configuration allows VMs to be moved to servers =
connected
>>   to other access switches, but increases the size of the L2 =
broadcast
>>   domain, which can lead to difficulties outlined below.
>>=20
>> This is the scenario that is used to justify the need for large L2 =
domain.
>>=20
>> The draft assumes that in order to move a given VM from one server to
>> another, where these two servers are connected to different access
> switches,
>> *all* the access switches must be configured with the VM's IP subnet, =
and
>> thus *all* the access switches must be part of the VM's L2 broadcast
> domain.
>> This is even if at any particular point in time the servers hosting =
all
> the
>> VMs of that IP subnet are connected to only a subset of these =
switches.
> But
>> is it truly necessary, or could the L2 broadcast domain span only the
>> switches connected to the servers that presently host VMs of the IP =
subnet
> ?
>>=20
>> Moreover, even if all the access switches need to be part of the same =
L2
>> broadcast domain, the increase in the size of the L2 broadcast domain =
in
> the
>> above scenario is caused by the access switches, not by the number of =
VMs
>> per L2 domain. The difficulies mentioned in the last sentence of the
> quoted
>> paragraph are due to ARP, but ARP is generated by VMs, not by the =
access
>> switches. Given that, how the increase in the size of the L2 =
broadcast
>> domain *due solely to the access switches*, could increase the amount =
of
> ARP
>> traffic that routers have to process ?
>>=20
>> Yakov.
>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Pedro Marques [mailto:pedro.r.marques@gmail.com]
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 1:52 PM
>>>> To: Linda Dunbar
>>>> Cc: l2vpn@ietf.org; L3VPN WG mailing list; sdnp@lucidvision.com;
>>>> armd@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: Re: Need your action to review draft-ietf-armd-problem-
>>>> statement-00.txt
>>>>=20
>>>> Linda,
>>>> I'd like to point out that the problem does not need to be solved =
if
>>>> only IP connectivity is required. This I-D:
>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-marques-l3vpn-end-system-02
>>>> describes a solution in which address resolution is not required
>>>> irrespective of the location of the traffic destination. Simply =
put,
>>>> traffic can be routed at each hop.
>>>>=20
>>>> As per previous threads in this list, the concept of subnet which =
is
>>>> of no practical usefulness in this space. Since VMs can be randomly
>>> distributed across the network the subnet does not provide any
>>>> information aggregation value. Thus there is no need to do address
>>>> resolution.
>>>>=20
>>>>   Pedro.
>>>>=20
>>>> On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 11:31 AM, Linda Dunbar
>>>> <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> For those of you who touch upon Data Center networking or server
>>>>> virtualization, be it Overlay, VPN4DC, or Application/Software
>>>>> driven Controller for Data Center, Address Resolution is something
>>>>> Data
>>>> Center
>>>>> Gateways  will encounter because hosts/applications in data
>>>>> centers
>>>> do
>>>>> communicate with peers which are not in the same Overlay, outside
>>>>> the
>>>> VPN
>>>>> domain, or from general public. ARMD has published its WG problem
>>>> statement
>>>>> draft. Your comments and suggestions are appreciated (send to
>>>>> armd@ietf.org).
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Thanks, Linda Dunbar
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> ---
>>>> --------------
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
>>>>> directories. This draft is a work item of the Address Resolution
>>>>> for
>>>> Massive
>>>>> numbers of hosts in the Data center Working Group of the IETF.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>         Title           : Problem Statement for ARMD
>>>>>=20
>>>>>         Author(s)       : Thomas Narten
>>>>>=20
>>>>>         Filename        : draft-ietf-armd-problem-statement-00.txt
>>>>>=20
>>>>>         Pages           : 11
>>>>>=20
>>>>>         Date            : 2011-10-17
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>    This document examines issues related to the massive scaling of
>>>> data
>>>>>=20
>>>>>    centers.  Our initial scope is relatively narrow.
>>>>> Specifically,
>>>> we
>>>>>=20
>>>>>    focus on address resolution (ARP and ND) within the data =
center.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-armd-problem-
>>>> statement-00.txt
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-armd-problem-stateme
>>>>> nt-
>>>> 00.txt
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> armd mailing list
> armd@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/armd
>=20


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Subject: [armd] [CfP] IEEE/IFIP International Workshop on Management of the Future Internet (ManFI 2012) - April 16, 2012 - Hawaii, USA
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 Please accept our apologies if you receive multiple copies of this CfP
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IEEE/IFIP International Workshop on Management of the Future Internet (ManFI 2012) 
==================================================================================
16 April 2012
Maui, Hawaii, USA
http://www.manfi.org


CALL FOR PAPERS
---------------
The Fourth IEEE/IFIP International Workshop on Management of the Future Internet (ManFI 2012) will be held in conjunction with IEEE/IFIP NOMS 2012 in Maui, Hawaii, USA, from April 16-20, 2012. The workshop is sponsored by the IEEE Communications Society (ComSoc) and supported by POSTECH ITCE, Ghent University-IBBT, NEC, and Ericsson LM. The workshop is endorsed by the Technical Committee on Network Operations and Management (CNOM).
It is widely agreed that, despite its many successes, the current Internet also has a set of systemic problems, ranging from an upcoming shortage of IP addresses to insufficient security. However, the lack of scalable and agile manageability is arguably more important, as without management, it is impossible to build systems that adapt the services and resources offered in a context-dependent manner.
In either case (clean slate vs. evolution vs. revolution) we must consider the manageability of the Future Internet from the beginning. Following the success of the three previous editions of this workshop, held in conjunction with IM 2009, NOMS 2010 and IM 2011, ManFI 2012 aims at providing an international forum for researchers in these and similar areas. ManFI 2012 will combine original full paper presentations with a motivating keynote, quick hot topic presentations and a panel discussion to thoroughly explore this challenging topic.

Topics of interest
------------------
Authors are invited to submit papers that fall into or are related to the topic areas listed below:
- Architectural Issues
   * Advantages and disadvantages of revolutionary, evolutionary, and other approaches to managing the Future Internet
   * Separation of data, control, and management planes
   * Design of architectural building blocks for managing the Future Internet
   * Advances in measurement, management, security, accounting, mobility, and other functions
   * Virtualization of resources and services
   * Dynamic composition of management and operational functionality
   * Mechanisms for managing interconnected computational infrastructures (e.g. elastic clouds, federated clouds) in the Future Internet
   * Implications of social network success on the Future Internet architecture
- Design and Implementation Issues
   * Abstractions for programmable network elements
   * Accommodating context-awareness in management
   * Applying  situation awareness to network management
   * Federation between administrative domains and support of all constituencies
   * The role of models, ontologies, and other knowledge abstractions in the Future Internet
   * Uncertainty and probabilistic approaches to management of the Future Internet
   * Approaches for the organization of management data, data analytics and visualization
   * Experience reports from Future Internet experimental facilities set-up and results
- Economic Issues
   * Economic aspects driving the deployment of Future Internet management technology
   * Economic opportunities and challenges for management technology
   * Experience reports from management in test beds

Paper submission
----------------
Paper submissions must present original, research or experiences. Late-breaking advances and work-in-progress reports from ongoing research are also encouraged. Only original papers that have not been published or submitted for publication elsewhere can be submitted. Each submission must be written in English, accompanied by a 75 to 200 word abstract that clearly outlines the scope and contributions of the paper, and a list of up to 5 key words. There is a length limitation of 6 pages (including title, abstract, all figures, tables, and references) for regular conference papers, and 4 pages for short papers. Submissions must be in IEEE 2-column style. Papers exceeding these limits, multiple submissions, and self-plagiarized papers will be rejected without further review. Authors should submit their papers in PDF, postscript, or Word formats via JEMS: (https://submissoes.sbc.org.br/).

Proceedings
-----------
Papers accepted for ManFI 2012 will be included in the conference proceedings, IEEE Xplore, and EI Index. The IEEE reserves the right to remove any paper from IEEE Xplore if the paper is not presented at the workshop. Awards will be presented to the best paper and to the best student paper at the workshop. Furthermore, we plan to work with a leading journal, such as JNSM, TNSM and IJNM, to solicit extended versions of the best papers of ManFI 2012 to be submitted for review.

Workshop Co-Chairs
------------------
- Prof. James Won-Ki Hong, POSTECH, Korea
- Prof. Filip De Turck, Ghent University - IBBT, Belgium
- Dr. Yoshiaki Kiriha, NEC, Japan
- Dr. Sven van der Meer, Ericsson LM, Ireland

Publicity Co-Chairs
-------------------
- Leonidas Lymberopoulos, National Technical University of Athens, Greece 
- Cathryn Peoples, University of Ulster, UK 
 
Important dates
---------------
- Abstract registration deadline: December 14, 2011
- Paper submission: December 20, 2011
- Notification of acceptance: January 31, 2012
- Final version of papers due: February 15, 2012
- Workshop date: April 16, 2012

For more information, please contact one of the Workshop Co-Chairs at tpcchairs@manfi2012.org
