From nobody Thu Dec 1 02:39:19 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 422F4129624; Thu, 1 Dec 2016 02:39:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-2.896, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=isode.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZeBEkgKt3iuL; Thu, 1 Dec 2016 02:39:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from waldorf.isode.com (waldorf.isode.com [62.232.206.188]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEBAD12962E; Thu, 1 Dec 2016 02:39:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1480588754; d=isode.com; s=june2016; i=@isode.com; bh=FEasuismg78jXSTYFcn2DVYisoG6f/Vhoo7I4HRKRqE=; h=From:Sender:Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:To:Cc:MIME-Version: In-Reply-To:References:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description; b=Vv+vZYbVK+dK8lcD9nwTuNy5yTxCvHP+kS/xNJ4v97iwwHK2Ec7KdTItFKncgHYeq9A1DJ c8nd3FJycScatW11IymmdlupA2z5fE6Fi3Mj5UAEgZu8+uH7JiIMG5AoWF4i2AMwA/CNCL pCn9+uRRPi/yS7e9pEyzUtxyCw+SX3w=; Received: from [172.20.1.215] (dhcp-215.isode.net [172.20.1.215]) by waldorf.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPSA id ; Thu, 1 Dec 2016 10:39:13 +0000 To: Alissa Cooper , The IESG References: <148051936421.14054.3370105373759594391.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Alexey Melnikov Message-ID: <5cc95ff6-0292-af6a-0768-75cc87ad51dc@isode.com> Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 10:38:56 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.2.0 In-Reply-To: <148051936421.14054.3370105373759594391.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: appsawg-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-appsawg-mdn-3798bis@ietf.org, superuser@gmail.com, Barry Leiba , art@ietf.org Subject: Re: [art] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on draft-ietf-appsawg-mdn-3798bis-15: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2016 10:39:18 -0000 Hi Alissa, On 30/11/2016 15:22, Alissa Cooper wrote: > = Section 6.2.2 = > > "The "Reporting-UA" field (Section 3.2.1) might contain enough > information to uniquely identify a specific device, usually when > combined with other characteristics, particularly if the user agent > sends excessive details about the user's system or extensions. > However, the source of unique information that is least expected by > users is proactive negotiation, including the Accept-Language header > fields." > > I think the use of "However" is tripping me up here. Earlier in the > document you have good recommendations about how to mitigate the risk of > fingerprinting based on the Reporting-UA field. That guidance is valid > regardless of whether other header fields might also contribute to > fingerprinting or whether users would expect that (frankly, I don't see > how user expectations are relevant here, since most users don't > understand fingerprinting anyway). I think something along the following > lines to replace the last sentence above would be more accurate: "Even > when the guidance in Section 3.2.1 is followed to avoid fingerprinting, > other sources of unique information may still be present, including the > Accept-Language header fields." This was copied from an HTTP RFC, but you have a point. I used a variant of your text (I changed "including" to "such as"). Best Regards, Alexey From nobody Thu Dec 1 08:06:32 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietf.org Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ABF01293F5; Thu, 1 Dec 2016 08:06:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.39.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <148060839110.10322.9574305328930221778.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2016 08:06:31 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: art@ietf.org Subject: [art] I-D Action: draft-ietf-appsawg-mdn-3798bis-16.txt X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2016 16:06:31 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the ART Area General Applications Working Group of the IETF. Title : Message Disposition Notification Authors : Tony Hansen Alexey Melnikov Filename : draft-ietf-appsawg-mdn-3798bis-16.txt Pages : 37 Date : 2016-12-01 Abstract: This memo defines a MIME content-type that may be used by a mail user agent (MUA) or electronic mail gateway to report the disposition of a message after it has been successfully delivered to a recipient. This content-type is intended to be machine-processable. Additional message header fields are also defined to permit Message Disposition Notifications (MDNs) to be requested by the sender of a message. The purpose is to extend Internet Mail to support functionality often found in other messaging systems, such as X.400 and the proprietary "LAN-based" systems, and often referred to as "read receipts," "acknowledgements", or "receipt notifications." The intention is to do this while respecting privacy concerns, which have often been expressed when such functions have been discussed in the past. Because many messages are sent between the Internet and other messaging systems (such as X.400 or the proprietary "LAN-based" systems), the MDN protocol is designed to be useful in a multi- protocol messaging environment. To this end, the protocol described in this memo provides for the carriage of "foreign" addresses, in addition to those normally used in Internet Mail. Additional attributes may also be defined to support "tunneling" of foreign notifications through Internet Mail. This document obsoletes RFC 3798, moving it to Internet Standard. It also updates RFC 2046 (message/partial Media Type handling) and RFC 3461 (Original-Recipient header field generation requirement). The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-appsawg-mdn-3798bis/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-appsawg-mdn-3798bis-16 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-appsawg-mdn-3798bis-16 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Dec 5 08:54:38 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietf.org Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 902FD12953B; Mon, 5 Dec 2016 08:54:26 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.39.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <148095686658.3257.2699597867313615363.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2016 08:54:26 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: ben@nostrum.com, draft-ietf-appsawg-mdn-3798bis@ietf.org, appsawg-chairs@ietf.org, art@ietf.org, superuser@gmail.com, The IESG , Barry Leiba , rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Subject: [art] Protocol Action: 'Message Disposition Notification' to Internet Standard (draft-ietf-appsawg-mdn-3798bis-16.txt) X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2016 16:54:26 -0000 The IESG has approved the following document: - 'Message Disposition Notification' (draft-ietf-appsawg-mdn-3798bis-16.txt) as Internet Standard This document is the product of the ART Area General Applications Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Alexey Melnikov, Ben Campbell and Alissa Cooper. A URL of this Internet Draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-appsawg-mdn-3798bis/ Technical Summary This draft intends to obsolete RFC 3798, and advance to Internet Standard. Abstract: This memo defines a MIME content-type that may be used by a mail user agent (MUA) or electronic mail gateway to report the disposition of a message after it has been successfully delivered to a recipient. This content-type is intended to be machine-processable. Additional message header fields are also defined to permit Message Disposition Notifications (MDNs) to be requested by the sender of a message. The purpose is to extend Internet Mail to support functionality often found in other messaging systems, such as X.400 and the proprietary "LAN-based" systems, and often referred to as "read receipts," "acknowledgements", or "receipt notifications." The intention is to do this while respecting privacy concerns, which have often been expressed when such functions have been discussed in the past. Because many messages are sent between the Internet and other messaging systems (such as X.400 or the proprietary "LAN-based" systems), the MDN protocol is designed to be useful in a multi- protocol messaging environment. To this end, the protocol described in this memo provides for the carriage of "foreign" addresses, in addition to those normally used in Internet Mail. Additional attributes may also be defined to support "tunneling" of foreign notifications through Internet Mail. Working Group Summary The document received general "Yes, this should happen" support at WG meetings, but unfortunately very little came in the way of active review. The working group appears to have trusted that the authors were doing good work and knew what they were doing and, if there were any problems found, they were not reported. MAAWG was also solicited for comments, but none were received (that I know of). In any case, there was no objection to its adoption by and publication through APPSAWG. There were no significant points of controversy or other difficulty. Document Quality RFC 3798 is widely implemented. This update seeks to advance to Internet Standard. Personnel The draft shepherd is Murray Kucherawy The responsible AD is Ben Campbell From nobody Tue Dec 6 17:03:07 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 938B512955B; Tue, 6 Dec 2016 17:03:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.922 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.922 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y-YTVWSUVf7y; Tue, 6 Dec 2016 17:03:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM02-BL2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2nam02on0080.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.38.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2EB74129628; Tue, 6 Dec 2016 17:02:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from MWHPR01MB2670.prod.exchangelabs.com (10.172.165.8) by MWHPR01MB2669.prod.exchangelabs.com (10.172.165.7) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.761.9; Wed, 7 Dec 2016 01:02:56 +0000 Received: from MWHPR01MB2670.prod.exchangelabs.com ([10.172.165.8]) by MWHPR01MB2670.prod.exchangelabs.com ([10.172.165.8]) with mapi id 15.01.0761.017; Wed, 7 Dec 2016 01:02:56 +0000 From: Matthew Kerwin To: Barry Leiba , "draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme.all@ietf.org" , "secdir@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: SecDir review of draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-14 Thread-Index: AQHSSnFPod93FrypBEOZkfp7dGkXSKD7s1Ve Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 01:02:56 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=matthew.kerwin@qut.edu.au; x-originating-ip: [25.164.163.132] x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: f2be8dee-e67b-4400-8a64-08d41e3cc7d1 x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(22001);SRVR:MWHPR01MB2669; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:MWHPR01MB2669; H:MWHPR01MB2670.prod.exchangelabs.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: qut.edu.au does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: qut.edu.au X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 07 Dec 2016 01:02:56.3800 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: dc0b52a3-68c5-44f7-881d-9383d8850b96 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MWHPR01MB2669 Archived-At: Cc: "art@ietf.org" , IETF discussion list , "paul.hoffman@vpnc.org" Subject: Re: [art] SecDir review of draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-14 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2016 01:03:04 -0000 Thanks Barry (and Paul),=20 I agree with everything you've written here, and I don't think any of it's = too controversial, so I'll work it all in to my copy pretty much exactly a= s you've suggested.=20 The acknowledgements is hung over from the very first versions of the draft= , which cribbed a lot from Paul's old draft. I'm pretty sure it's been comp= letely rewritten several times since then, so I will definitely redo the ac= ks.=20 Cheers -- Matthew Kerwin | Queensland University of Technology | matthew.kerwin@q= ut.edu.au | CRICOS No 00213J ________________________________ From: barryleiba@gmail.com on behalf of Barry Leiba = Sent: 30 November 2016 04:49:12 To: draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme.all@ietf.org; secdir@ietf.org Cc: IETF discussion list; art@ietf.org Subject: SecDir review of draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-14 I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG. These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security area directors. Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just like any other last call comments. Thanks for finally getting this through. I think the document is ready with nits; my detailed comments are below. It=92s a tiny thing, but where the abstract says =93replacing the definition in RFC 1738,=94 one may be led to think (I was) that 1738 has a more robust definition than it does. D=92you mind changing that to something like this: =91This document provides a full specification of the "file" Uniform Resource Identifier (URI) scheme, replacing the very brief definition in Section 3.10 of RFC 1738.=92 The Security Considerations section is well thought out; thanks. The only thing I can think of that might be added is a few words about non-local file URIs. Section 3 says two significant things that should be highlighted in a security consideration: 1. A file URI can be dependably dereferenced or translated to a local file path only if it is local. 2. This specification neither defines nor forbids any set of operations that might be performed on a file identified by a non-local file URI. Given those two things, I think it would be worth explicitly saying that treating a non-local URI as local or otherwise attempting to perform local operations on a non-local URI can result in security problems. Matthew=92s name and address will be on the RFC, of course, but is that really the best choice for contact information for the scheme in the registry? Or would it be better to point people to =93Applications and Real-Time Area =94 ? In general, we seem to have mixed feelings about listing individuals as contact points for things registered by working group documents (and I fall on the =93avoid using specific individuals=94 side, because individuals often come and go over relatively short time). The =93References=94 in the registry template should just be =93this RFC=94= , and this RFC number will appear in the registry. A bit of process geekery: In the Acknowledgments, you say=85 This specification is derived from [RFC1738], [RFC3986], and [I-D.hoffman-file-uri] (expired); the acknowledgements in those documents still apply. I don=92t imagine there=92s actually text from 1738 in here (is there?). How much text is here from 3986? I=92m not talking about concepts, but actual text that was brought over. If there is, have you made sure that all authors of the documents you got text from agree to the terms of BCPs 78 & 79 ? If not, there might need to be a pre-5378 disclaimer in the boilerplate. I suspect we=92re OK, because we=92re mostly talking about Larry, Roy, and TimBL, but I just wanted to check. (I personally think the acknowledgments text above is a bit much, unless you=92ve really copied a lot of text from those RFCs. But that=92s your section to do with as you think best.) References: I don=92t think BCP35 is normative, and I=92d move it to informative. I don=92t think UAX15 is normative, and I=92d move it to informative. I think UTF-8 is normative (as you have it), but UNICODE is not. Others might disagree with that. I think I would make RFC 6454 normative, only because it=92s listed as a reference for =93the most secure option=94 in the Security Considerations. Barry From nobody Tue Dec 6 17:42:59 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 732EC129625; Tue, 6 Dec 2016 17:42:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GwJSPBqUba7N; Tue, 6 Dec 2016 17:42:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk0-f171.google.com (mail-qk0-f171.google.com [209.85.220.171]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B71771295C1; Tue, 6 Dec 2016 17:42:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk0-f171.google.com with SMTP id x190so399808042qkb.0; Tue, 06 Dec 2016 17:42:54 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=fj8EEAA6BJEvgOwYRd7ysEYlaeXmuvOaML/ZDWTxcVQ=; b=ILhd/XLHbz3TqpqxBKLHgjSBnvpwl0jdFbuV6RZnDn+YusiMimaziIbKaGtv159Niv huR9d53leN9RO2/ejQI+4t8/hKsqVeY8r14xDF/098eo1jsb7UEbU/89vWDmreyEkOOT eNhVO7LJ6q6yii9gClDjdIqc7X+6LdHP0pAH3FhStyGPnP0TbfPKAzk35RSnyFigmBTw S4aV+6ZsncOK5K5PbAVQKaHP3VE8aj/BSU7zjzpqfcnPWZZIdVuL22fQfgZQ2xbs2TEu 9Y1RUM3SUAqq2GqwqosBmvYFgC71/OelQ/105B5S+5XTanVAbFJSdHA0pHchclJeIxlO nJ4Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AKaTC02j8rL6UvMV1gPGgx3svztYcmJYZ0fIxUoWSOHKw19ePOG0V/kTZKWAsR/BSk1DbcjJzoFnT1UU9sU52g== X-Received: by 10.233.232.133 with SMTP id a127mr62773570qkg.235.1481074973843; Tue, 06 Dec 2016 17:42:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Barry Leiba Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2016 01:42:43 +0000 Message-ID: To: Matthew Kerwin , "draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme.all@ietf.org" , "secdir@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c034bfcb3a70b054307a3cc Archived-At: Cc: "art@ietf.org" , IETF discussion list , "paul.hoffman@vpnc.org" Subject: Re: [art] SecDir review of draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-14 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2016 01:42:57 -0000 --94eb2c034bfcb3a70b054307a3cc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks, Matthew! b On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 7:03 PM Matthew Kerwin wrote: > Thanks Barry (and Paul), > > I agree with everything you've written here, and I don't think any of it'= s > too controversial, so I'll work it all in to my copy pretty much exactly > as you've suggested. > > The acknowledgements is hung over from the very first versions of the > draft, which cribbed a lot from Paul's old draft. I'm pretty sure it's be= en > completely rewritten several times since then, so I will definitely redo > the acks. > > Cheers > -- > Matthew Kerwin | Queensland University of Technology | > matthew.kerwin@qut.edu.au | CRICOS No 00213J > ________________________________ > From: barryleiba@gmail.com on behalf of Barry > Leiba > Sent: 30 November 2016 04:49:12 > To: draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme.all@ietf.org; secdir@ietf.org > Cc: IETF discussion list; art@ietf.org > Subject: SecDir review of draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-14 > > I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's > ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the > IESG. These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the > security area directors. Document editors and WG chairs should treat > these comments just like any other last call comments. > > Thanks for finally getting this through. I think the document is > ready with nits; my detailed comments are below. > > It=E2=80=99s a tiny thing, but where the abstract says =E2=80=9Creplacing= the > definition in RFC 1738,=E2=80=9D one may be led to think (I was) that 173= 8 has > a more robust definition than it does. D=E2=80=99you mind changing that = to > something like this: =E2=80=98This document provides a full specification= of > the "file" Uniform Resource Identifier (URI) scheme, replacing the > very brief definition in Section 3.10 of RFC 1738.=E2=80=99 > > The Security Considerations section is well thought out; thanks. The > only thing I can think of that might be added is a few words about > non-local file URIs. Section 3 says two significant things that > should be highlighted in a security consideration: > 1. A file URI can be dependably dereferenced or translated to a local > file path only if it is local. > 2. This specification neither defines nor forbids any set of > operations that might be performed on a file identified by a non-local > file URI. > > Given those two things, I think it would be worth explicitly saying > that treating a non-local URI as local or otherwise attempting to > perform local operations on a non-local URI can result in security > problems. > > Matthew=E2=80=99s name and address will be on the RFC, of course, but is = that > really the best choice for contact information for the scheme in the > registry? Or would it be better to point people to =E2=80=9CApplications= and > Real-Time Area =E2=80=9D ? In general, we seem to have mix= ed > feelings about listing individuals as contact points for things > registered by working group documents (and I fall on the =E2=80=9Cavoid u= sing > specific individuals=E2=80=9D side, because individuals often come and go= over > relatively short time). > > The =E2=80=9CReferences=E2=80=9D in the registry template should just be = =E2=80=9Cthis RFC=E2=80=9D, > and this RFC number will appear in the registry. > > A bit of process geekery: > In the Acknowledgments, you say=E2=80=A6 > This specification is derived from [RFC1738], [RFC3986], and > [I-D.hoffman-file-uri] (expired); the acknowledgements in those > documents still apply. > > I don=E2=80=99t imagine there=E2=80=99s actually text from 1738 in here (= is there?). > How much text is here from 3986? I=E2=80=99m not talking about concepts,= but > actual text that was brought over. If there is, have you made sure > that all authors of the documents you got text from agree to the terms > of BCPs 78 & 79 ? If not, there might need to be a pre-5378 > disclaimer in the boilerplate. I suspect we=E2=80=99re OK, because we=E2= =80=99re > mostly talking about Larry, Roy, and TimBL, but I just wanted to > check. > > (I personally think the acknowledgments text above is a bit much, > unless you=E2=80=99ve really copied a lot of text from those RFCs. But t= hat=E2=80=99s > your section to do with as you think best.) > > References: > I don=E2=80=99t think BCP35 is normative, and I=E2=80=99d move it to info= rmative. > I don=E2=80=99t think UAX15 is normative, and I=E2=80=99d move it to info= rmative. > I think UTF-8 is normative (as you have it), but UNICODE is not. > Others might disagree with that. > I think I would make RFC 6454 normative, only because it=E2=80=99s listed= as a > reference for =E2=80=9Cthe most secure option=E2=80=9D in the Security Co= nsiderations. > > Barry > --94eb2c034bfcb3a70b054307a3cc Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks, Matthew!

b

On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 7:03 PM Matt= hew Kerwin <matthew.kerwin@= qut.edu.au> wrote:
Thanks B= arry (and Paul),

I agree with everything you've written here, and I don't think any = of it's too controversial,=C2=A0 so I'll work it all in to my copy = pretty much exactly as you've suggested.

The acknowledgements is hung over from the very first versions of the draft= , which cribbed a lot from Paul's old draft. I'm pretty sure it'= ;s been completely rewritten several times since then, so I will definitely= redo the acks.

Cheers
--
Matthew Kerwin=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 Queensland University of Technology=C2=A0 |=C2= =A0 matthew.kerwin@qut.edu.au=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 CRICOS No 00213J ________________________________
From: barryleiba@gmail.com <barryleiba@gmail.com> on be= half of Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>
Sent: 30 November 2016 04:49:12
To: draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme.all@ietf.org; secdir@ietf.org
Cc: IETF discussion list; art@ietf.org
Subject: SecDir review of draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-14

I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's
ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the
IESG.=C2=A0 These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security area directors.=C2=A0 Document editors and WG chairs should treat<= br class=3D"gmail_msg"> these comments just like any other last call comments.

Thanks for finally getting this through.=C2=A0 I think the document is
ready with nits; my detailed comments are below.

It=E2=80=99s a tiny thing, but where the abstract says =E2=80=9Creplacing t= he
definition in RFC 1738,=E2=80=9D one may be led to think (I was) that 1738 = has
a more robust definition than it does.=C2=A0 D=E2=80=99you mind changing th= at to
something like this: =E2=80=98This document provides a full specification o= f
the "file" Uniform Resource Identifier (URI) scheme, replacing th= e
very brief definition in Section 3.10 of RFC 1738.=E2=80=99

The Security Considerations section is well thought out; thanks.=C2=A0 The<= br class=3D"gmail_msg"> only thing I can think of that might be added is a few words about
non-local file URIs.=C2=A0 Section 3 says two significant things that
should be highlighted in a security consideration:
1. A file URI can be dependably dereferenced or translated to a local
file path only if it is local.
2. This specification neither defines nor forbids any set of
operations that might be performed on a file identified by a non-local
file URI.

Given those two things, I think it would be worth explicitly saying
that treating a non-local URI as local or otherwise attempting to
perform local operations on a non-local URI can result in security
problems.

Matthew=E2=80=99s name and address will be on the RFC, of course, but is th= at
really the best choice for contact information for the scheme in the
registry?=C2=A0 Or would it be better to point people to =E2=80=9CApplicati= ons and
Real-Time Area <art@ietf.org>=E2=80=9D ?=C2=A0 In general, we seem to = have mixed
feelings about listing individuals as contact points for things
registered by working group documents (and I fall on the =E2=80=9Cavoid usi= ng
specific individuals=E2=80=9D side, because individuals often come and go o= ver
relatively short time).

The =E2=80=9CReferences=E2=80=9D in the registry template should just be = =E2=80=9Cthis RFC=E2=80=9D,
and this RFC number will appear in the registry.

A bit of process geekery:
In the Acknowledgments, you say=E2=80=A6
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This specification is derived from [RFC1738], [RFC3986], and =C2=A0 =C2=A0[I-D.hoffman-file-uri] (expired); the acknowledgements in thos= e
=C2=A0 =C2=A0documents still apply.

I don=E2=80=99t imagine there=E2=80=99s actually text from 1738 in here (is= there?).
How much text is here from 3986?=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m not talking about concep= ts, but
actual text that was brought over.=C2=A0 If there is, have you made sure that all authors of the documents you got text from agree to the terms
of BCPs 78 & 79 ?=C2=A0 If not, there might need to be a pre-5378
disclaimer in the boilerplate.=C2=A0 I suspect we=E2=80=99re OK, because we= =E2=80=99re
mostly talking about Larry, Roy, and TimBL, but I just wanted to
check.

(I personally think the acknowledgments text above is a bit much,
unless you=E2=80=99ve really copied a lot of text from those RFCs.=C2=A0 Bu= t that=E2=80=99s
your section to do with as you think best.)

References:
I don=E2=80=99t think BCP35 is normative, and I=E2=80=99d move it to inform= ative.
I don=E2=80=99t think UAX15 is normative, and I=E2=80=99d move it to inform= ative.
I think UTF-8 is normative (as you have it), but UNICODE is not.
Others might disagree with that.
I think I would make RFC 6454 normative, only because it=E2=80=99s listed a= s a
reference for =E2=80=9Cthe most secure option=E2=80=9D in the Security Cons= iderations.

Barry
--94eb2c034bfcb3a70b054307a3cc-- From nobody Tue Dec 6 18:03:24 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A18312955B; Tue, 6 Dec 2016 18:03:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.022 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.022 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=adobe.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ir86h-_mHEtB; Tue, 6 Dec 2016 18:03:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM02-CY1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-cys01nam02on0046.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.37.46]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1FA981293E1; 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charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: adobe.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 07 Dec 2016 02:03:13.2758 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: fa7b1b5a-7b34-4387-94ae-d2c178decee1 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY1PR0201MB1530 Archived-At: Cc: "art@ietf.org" , IETF discussion list , "paul.hoffman@vpnc.org" Subject: Re: [art] SecDir review of draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-14 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2016 02:03:17 -0000 DQogICAgIEl04oCZcyBhIHRpbnkgdGhpbmcsIGJ1dCB3aGVyZSB0aGUgYWJzdHJhY3Qgc2F5cyDi gJxyZXBsYWNpbmcgdGhlDQogICAgZGVmaW5pdGlvbiBpbiBSRkMgMTczOCzigJ0gb25lIG1heSBi ZSBsZWQgdG8gdGhpbmsgKEkgd2FzKSB0aGF0IDE3MzggaGFzDQogICAgYSBtb3JlIHJvYnVzdCBk ZWZpbml0aW9uIHRoYW4gaXQgZG9lcy4gIETigJl5b3UgbWluZCBjaGFuZ2luZyB0aGF0IHRvDQog ICAgc29tZXRoaW5nIGxpa2UgdGhpczog4oCYVGhpcyBkb2N1bWVudCBwcm92aWRlcyBhIGZ1bGwg c3BlY2lmaWNhdGlvbiBvZg0KICAgIHRoZSAiZmlsZSIgVW5pZm9ybSBSZXNvdXJjZSBJZGVudGlm aWVyIChVUkkpIHNjaGVtZSwgcmVwbGFjaW5nIHRoZQ0KICAgIHZlcnkgYnJpZWYgZGVmaW5pdGlv biBpbiBTZWN0aW9uIDMuMTAgb2YgUkZDIDE3Mzgu4oCZDQogICAgDQpzL2Z1bGwvbW9yZSBjb21w bGV0ZS8NCg0KQSDigJxmdWxs4oCdIHNwZWNpZmljYXRpb24gb2YgZmlsZTogVVJJcyBtaWdodCBp bmNsdWRlIGEgc2V0IG9mIHBsYXRmb3JtIGFuZCBmaWxlLXN5c3RlbSBzcGVjaWZpYyBpbXBsZW1l bnRhdGlvbiBhZHZpY2UgYWJvdXQgaG93IHRvIGhhbmRsZSBmaWxlIG5hbWluZywgdmFyaWF0aW9u cyBpbiBVbmljb2RlIG5vcm1hbGl6YXRpb24sIGNhc2Ugc2Vuc2l0aXZpdHksIGFuZCBzbyBmb3J0 aC4NCiANCg0K From nobody Tue Dec 6 21:45:43 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A227A12967A; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:CY1PR0201MB1529; H:CY1PR0201MB1530.namprd02.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: de1987f6-fb4c-4f1b-0e25-08d41e64425c x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(22001); SRVR:CY1PR0201MB1529; x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(54900358751275); x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(61425038)(6040375)(601004)(2401047)(5005006)(8121501046)(3002001)(10201501046)(6055026)(61426038)(61427038)(6041248)(20161123555025)(20161123562025)(20161123564025)(20161123560025)(6042181)(6072148); SRVR:CY1PR0201MB1529; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:CY1PR0201MB1529; x-forefront-prvs: 01494FA7F7 received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: adobe.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: adobe.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 07 Dec 2016 05:45:32.2162 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: fa7b1b5a-7b34-4387-94ae-d2c178decee1 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY1PR0201MB1529 Archived-At: Cc: "art@ietf.org" , IETF discussion list , "paul.hoffman@vpnc.org" Subject: Re: [art] SecDir review of draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-14 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2016 05:45:39 -0000 SnVzdCB0byBiZSBjbGVhcjogSSB0aGluayB0aGUgbGV2ZWwgb2Ygc3BlY2lmaWNhdGlvbiBpbiB0 aGlzIGRvY3VtZW50DQppcyBhcHByb3ByaWF0ZSBhbmQgYSAiZnVsbCIgc3BlY2lmaWNhdGlvbiB3 b3VsZCBiZSBpbnRyYWN0YWJsZS4NCiANCkJ1dCBpdCB3b3VsZCBiZSB1c2VmdWwgdG8gYmUganVz dCBhIGJpdCBtb3JlIGV4cGxpY2l0IGFib3V0IHRoZSB0aGluZ3MNCnRoYXQgeW91IHNob3VsZCBm aWd1cmUgb3V0IGJlZm9yZSBpbXBsZW1lbnRpbmcgKGFib3V0IHdoYXQNCm90aGVyIGltcGxlbWVu dGF0aW9ucyBkbyBvbiB0aGUgc2FtZSBwbGF0Zm9ybSkuDQoNCkxhcnJ5DQotLQ0KaHR0cDovL2xh cnJ5Lm1hc2ludGVyLm5ldA0KDQo+IC0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQo+IEZyb206 IGlldGYgW21haWx0bzppZXRmLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmddIE9uIEJlaGFsZiBPZiBMYXJyeSBN YXNpbnRlcg0KPiBTZW50OiBUdWVzZGF5LCBEZWNlbWJlciA2LCAyMDE2IDY6MDMgUE0NCj4gVG86 IE1hdHRoZXcgS2Vyd2luIDxtYXR0aGV3LmtlcndpbkBxdXQuZWR1LmF1PjsgQmFycnkgTGVpYmEN Cj4gPGJhcnJ5bGVpYmFAY29tcHV0ZXIub3JnPjsgZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1hcHBzYXdnLWZpbGUtDQo+ IHNjaGVtZS5hbGxAaWV0Zi5vcmc7IHNlY2RpckBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBDYzogYXJ0QGlldGYub3Jn OyBJRVRGIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gbGlzdCA8aWV0ZkBpZXRmLm9yZz47DQo+IHBhdWwuaG9mZm1hbkB2 cG5jLm9yZw0KPiBTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogU2VjRGlyIHJldmlldyBvZiBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLWFwcHNh d2ctZmlsZS1zY2hlbWUtMTQNCj4gDQo+IA0KPiAgICAgIEl04oCZcyBhIHRpbnkgdGhpbmcsIGJ1 dCB3aGVyZSB0aGUgYWJzdHJhY3Qgc2F5cyDigJxyZXBsYWNpbmcgdGhlDQo+ICAgICBkZWZpbml0 aW9uIGluIFJGQyAxNzM4LOKAnSBvbmUgbWF5IGJlIGxlZCB0byB0aGluayAoSSB3YXMpIHRoYXQg MTczOCBoYXMNCj4gICAgIGEgbW9yZSByb2J1c3QgZGVmaW5pdGlvbiB0aGFuIGl0IGRvZXMuICBE 4oCZeW91IG1pbmQgY2hhbmdpbmcgdGhhdCB0bw0KPiAgICAgc29tZXRoaW5nIGxpa2UgdGhpczog 4oCYVGhpcyBkb2N1bWVudCBwcm92aWRlcyBhIGZ1bGwgc3BlY2lmaWNhdGlvbiBvZg0KPiAgICAg dGhlICJmaWxlIiBVbmlmb3JtIFJlc291cmNlIElkZW50aWZpZXIgKFVSSSkgc2NoZW1lLCByZXBs YWNpbmcgdGhlDQo+ICAgICB2ZXJ5IGJyaWVmIGRlZmluaXRpb24gaW4gU2VjdGlvbiAzLjEwIG9m IFJGQyAxNzM4LuKAmQ0KPiANCj4gcy9mdWxsL21vcmUgY29tcGxldGUvDQo+IA0KPiBBIOKAnGZ1 bGzigJ0gc3BlY2lmaWNhdGlvbiBvZiBmaWxlOiBVUklzIG1pZ2h0IGluY2x1ZGUgYSBzZXQgb2Yg cGxhdGZvcm0gYW5kDQo+IGZpbGUtc3lzdGVtIHNwZWNpZmljIGltcGxlbWVudGF0aW9uIGFkdmlj ZSBhYm91dCBob3cgdG8gaGFuZGxlIGZpbGUNCj4gbmFtaW5nLCB2YXJpYXRpb25zIGluIFVuaWNv ZGUgbm9ybWFsaXphdGlvbiwgY2FzZSBzZW5zaXRpdml0eSwgYW5kIHNvDQo+IGZvcnRoLg0KPiAN Cg0K From nobody Tue Dec 6 23:11:04 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47E491294CC; 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Wed, 7 Dec 2016 07:10:52 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: webafrica|x-authuser|info@allaboutmzansi.com Received: from srv09.hostserv.co.za (srv09.hostserv.co.za [10.107.128.240]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.7.8); Wed, 07 Dec 2016 07:10:56 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: webafrica|x-authuser|info@allaboutmzansi.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: webafrica X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1481094655514:2606586813 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1481094655514 Received: from [105.15.1.252] (port=30096 helo=AllistairPC) by srv09.hostserv.co.za with esmtpa (Exim 4.87) (envelope-from ) id 1cEWNF-003cN4-B1; Wed, 07 Dec 2016 09:10:41 +0200 From: "Allistair Brown" To: "'Larry Masinter'" , "'Matthew Kerwin'" , "'Barry Leiba'" , , References: <76D997B0-226E-4994-B6D1-E42A7A6A8E43@adobe.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2016 09:10:45 +0200 Organization: All About Mzansi Message-ID: <002a01d25059$08ac32a0$1a0497e0$@allaboutmzansi.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQKu8cL81g0nNe6soJub8E5PgLz56AHA20IDAd4w1qkCgesC658RxpiQ Content-Language: en-za X-AuthUser: info@allaboutmzansi.com Archived-At: Cc: art@ietf.org, 'IETF discussion list' , paul.hoffman@vpnc.org Subject: Re: [art] SecDir review of draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-14 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: info@allaboutmzansi.com List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2016 07:11:03 -0000 Hi everyone, please remove me from this email thread. Thank you. -----Original Message----- From: art [mailto:art-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Larry Masinter Sent: 07 December 2016 07:46 AM To: Larry Masinter; Matthew Kerwin; Barry Leiba; = draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme.all@ietf.org; secdir@ietf.org Cc: art@ietf.org; IETF discussion list; paul.hoffman@vpnc.org Subject: Re: [art] SecDir review of draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-14 Just to be clear: I think the level of specification in this document is = appropriate and a "full" specification would be intractable. =20 But it would be useful to be just a bit more explicit about the things = that you should figure out before implementing (about what other = implementations do on the same platform). Larry -- http://larry.masinter.net > -----Original Message----- > From: ietf [mailto:ietf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Larry Masinter > Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2016 6:03 PM > To: Matthew Kerwin ; Barry Leiba=20 > ; draft-ietf-appsawg-file-=20 > scheme.all@ietf.org; secdir@ietf.org > Cc: art@ietf.org; IETF discussion list ;=20 > paul.hoffman@vpnc.org > Subject: Re: SecDir review of draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-14 >=20 >=20 > It=E2=80=99s a tiny thing, but where the abstract says = =E2=80=9Creplacing the > definition in RFC 1738,=E2=80=9D one may be led to think (I was) = that 1738 has > a more robust definition than it does. D=E2=80=99you mind = changing that to > something like this: =E2=80=98This document provides a full = specification of > the "file" Uniform Resource Identifier (URI) scheme, replacing the > very brief definition in Section 3.10 of RFC 1738.=E2=80=99 >=20 > s/full/more complete/ >=20 > A =E2=80=9Cfull=E2=80=9D specification of file: URIs might include a = set of platform=20 > and file-system specific implementation advice about how to handle=20 > file naming, variations in Unicode normalization, case sensitivity,=20 > and so forth. >=20 _______________________________________________ art mailing list art@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art From nobody Mon Dec 12 17:08:21 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietf.org Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E179129CD4; Mon, 12 Dec 2016 17:08:20 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.39.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <148159130024.22487.6467658296797191489.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 17:08:20 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: art@ietf.org Subject: [art] I-D Action: draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-15.txt X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 01:08:20 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the ART Area General Applications Working Group of the IETF. Title : The file URI Scheme Author : Matthew Kerwin Filename : draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-15.txt Pages : 18 Date : 2016-12-12 Abstract: This document provides a more complete specification of the "file" Uniform Resource Identifier (URI) scheme, replacing the very brief definition in Section 3.10 of RFC 1738. It defines a common syntax which is intended to interoperate across the broad spectrum of existing usages. At the same time it notes some other current practices around the use of file URIs. Note to Readers (To be removed by the RFC Editor) This draft should be discussed on the IETF Applications Area Working Group discussion list . The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-15 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-15 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue Dec 13 07:25:30 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietf.org Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DD3F129B7D; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 07:25:26 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Stephen Farrell" To: "The IESG" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.39.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <148164272603.29334.6599219976221487711.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 07:25:26 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: appsawg-chairs@ietf.org, dcrocker@bbiw.net, draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme@ietf.org, art@ietf.org Subject: [art] Stephen Farrell's Discuss on draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-15: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 15:25:26 -0000 Stephen Farrell has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-15: Discuss When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCUSS: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Appendix C: this spec and the whatwg web page may or may not be in conflict. I think this may be the first PS that we've produced where that fact finally hits that fan - is that right? If not, then I'll clear as we'll already have decided there's nothing to be done about odd behaviour with "competing" specifications for the same thing (that thing being RFC3986). If this is the first time we've gotten to this point, then I think the IESG ought explicitly decide that we are going to live with what we all know is a pretty crap situation where different implementers (web vs. non-web basically) supporting various kinds of URL/URI are liable to end up doing different and potentially non-interoperable things. (There is no action required from the author. For the IESG - we discussed this a couple of years back, but there have been some personnel changes since and I forget if the current set of ADs are or are not up to speed with and ok with this.) From nobody Tue Dec 13 08:12:06 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F4EA129429; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 08:12:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.792 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.792 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=bbiw.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iK_arZtzkWHV; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 08:12:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from simon.songbird.com (simon.songbird.com [72.52.113.5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6928C1295A6; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 08:12:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.168] (76-218-8-128.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.8.128]) (authenticated bits=0) by simon.songbird.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-4.1ubuntu1) with ESMTP id uBDGD8kx009307 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 13 Dec 2016 08:13:08 -0800 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=bbiw.net; s=default; t=1481645589; bh=Dl9skkZENrrrbRBCvW2r3dGTk4Z7BDkJRn/Waoc+iww=; h=Subject:To:References:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=QGQJfDOdTq9hwlhxSX3yC3fC/Qyb5S62mSDKVo74zPzu0yOfGJv9C2VbhD3thaSRe 5AGMnqsAKHlSpJp4XL66A8h+k+LeLLJrYC5BQRkfsBSZx/1O3OIGF9or2H9Z53JDnu 4WIIBswCC0TAUIkgGWp3ulT0t5PmrUZ4RLMP9Pqc= To: Stephen Farrell , The IESG References: <148164272603.29334.6599219976221487711.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking Message-ID: <254dd66d-9c18-a56d-c54a-978e65c569fb@bbiw.net> Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 08:11:48 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <148164272603.29334.6599219976221487711.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: appsawg-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme@ietf.org, art@ietf.org Subject: Re: [art] Stephen Farrell's Discuss on draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-15: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 16:12:04 -0000 Steve, Sorry, but I can't tell what the specific concern is... Please clarify with specific references. Inline... On 12/13/2016 7:25 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > Appendix C: this spec and the whatwg web page may or may not > be in conflict. 1. "May or may not" presumably means that your concern is we don't know. But since that lack of knowledge could be applied to a potentially infinite set of web sites, what's the reasons for selecting this one to be concerned about? Further since there's clear text in Appendix C and text at the whatwg (but you don't cite which page), it's not clear why the answer isn't clear. 2. Since Appendix C is non-normative, what makes the concern of possible (but undocumented) divergence a reason for blocking with a Discuss? 3. If there is a deeper concern that you are raising, I've missed it. > I think this may be the first PS that we've > produced where that fact finally hits that fan - is that What fact? > right? If not, then I'll clear as we'll already have decided > there's nothing to be done about odd behaviour with > "competing" specifications for the same thing (that thing You haven't cited any competing specifications, not even possibly competing ones. > being RFC3986). If this is the first time we've gotten to > this point, then I think the IESG ought explicitly decide > that we are going to live with what we all know is a pretty > crap situation where different implementers (web vs. non-web > basically) supporting various kinds of URL/URI are liable to > end up doing different and potentially non-interoperable > things. (There is no action required from the author. For the > IESG - we discussed this a couple of years back, but there > have been some personnel changes since and I forget if the > current set of ADs are or are not up to speed with and ok > with this.) d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Tue Dec 13 08:22:02 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietf.org Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D27F3129439; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 08:22:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: "Mirja Kuehlewind" To: "The IESG" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.39.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <148164612085.29338.16482342179318328081.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 08:22:00 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: appsawg-chairs@ietf.org, dcrocker@bbiw.net, draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme@ietf.org, art@ietf.org Subject: [art] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_No_Objection_on_draft-ie?= =?utf-8?q?tf-appsawg-file-scheme-15=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 16:22:01 -0000 Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-15: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 'not' missing? s/It would be impossible for this specification to list all such significant characters and device names. /It would not be impossible for this specification to list all such significant characters and device names. / From nobody Tue Dec 13 08:30:42 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01F24129418; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 08:30:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.209 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.209 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mrochek.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8fVcB-exWEv3; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 08:30:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (unknown [66.159.242.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C917129434; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 08:29:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01Q8FCOSSSW0003U6B@mauve.mrochek.com>; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 08:24:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=mrochek.com; s=mauve; t=1481646271; bh=tjSMsi3kpet49nXOpPDFfZ1L0k0k1cRxmT5pTiwYgcE=; h=Cc:Date:From:Subject:In-reply-to:References:To; b=qcYCqTyl7ugBto/tdS1rXRtolaoe4VNIU/WDiJnOmitrlPin0wmanQTL3tRFx15N6 d/VBI6X6Rqy07FSAv1bL1rDH0kcC8qtShGOf990STNm63bPyEsQj/5rrW7o3p4m+Vu LjdUGnXHYyZOq2/H45i7MyzoFMZSlAICL4n/b4Oo= MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01Q8ARSTBY7K011H9Q@mauve.mrochek.com>; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 08:24:30 -0800 (PST) Message-id: <01Q8FCOR8IYU011H9Q@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 08:12:45 -0800 (PST) From: Ned Freed In-reply-to: "Your message dated Tue, 13 Dec 2016 07:25:26 -0800" <148164272603.29334.6599219976221487711.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <148164272603.29334.6599219976221487711.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: Stephen Farrell Archived-At: Cc: appsawg-chairs@ietf.org, art@ietf.org, The IESG , draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme@ietf.org, dcrocker@bbiw.net Subject: Re: [art] Stephen Farrell's Discuss on draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-15: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 16:30:34 -0000 > Stephen Farrell has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-15: Discuss > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme/ > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > DISCUSS: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Appendix C: this spec and the whatwg web page may or may not > be in conflict. I think this may be the first PS that we've > produced where that fact finally hits that fan - is that > right? Not even close. The first example I found after a quick check of their web site was the lack of RFC 2231 (that's from 1997) support in their "MIME Sniffing" specfication. I'm also doubtful their rules are even fully aligned with RFC 2045-2046. Want another? Their HTML specification talks about using a number of unregistered (and likely unregisterable) standards tree media types - which they insist on calling "MIME types" because that's "clearer". Similar issues apparently exist in their usage of W3C specifications, BTW. I have no doubt there are many other examples to be found, but I'm not going to waste my time finding them. > If not, then I'll clear as we'll already have decided > there's nothing to be done about odd behaviour with > "competing" specifications for the same thing (that thing > being RFC3986). If this is the first time we've gotten to > this point, then I think the IESG ought explicitly decide > that we are going to live with what we all know is a pretty > crap situation where different implementers (web vs. non-web > basically) supporting various kinds of URL/URI are liable to > end up doing different and potentially non-interoperable > things. (There is no action required from the author. For the > IESG - we discussed this a couple of years back, but there > have been some personnel changes since and I forget if the > current set of ADs are or are not up to speed with and ok > with this.) In the email space at least, competing specifications have been the norm for 30+ years. So you'll have to pardon me for not getting too excited about this. Ned From nobody Tue Dec 13 08:45:43 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8768D129BA3; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 08:45:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-2.896, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AEvkrhGqpIbI; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 08:45:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EDEAF1295A6; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 08:45:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21908BE2F; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 16:45:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7RXLKLlwQFS0; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 16:45:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [134.226.63.183] (cswireless63-183.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.63.183]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 799D9BE2E; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 16:45:27 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1481647527; bh=Jz+NKo37H9BrawygAOvCo4sEEDU+UzuxEUoDVvQzL0g=; h=Subject:To:References:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=dWflG1rTTyZsALfrp7VGcdsjykxktFgLceCWcAVPN7yMFhVwfLzD5jU5F5vvada5x YYOTvv/u69QA3lXBV9V+vhTr343i8DOblUI78fm0Os4o6AKedeQ6dqG3sIO65H8aEA DvMza6CSjEjtbdAMTyD/4curXN7RhgoHO2hHPqLY= To: Dave Crocker , The IESG References: <148164272603.29334.6599219976221487711.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <254dd66d-9c18-a56d-c54a-978e65c569fb@bbiw.net> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=D66EA7906F0B897FB2E97D582F3C8736805F8DA2; url= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 16:45:27 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <254dd66d-9c18-a56d-c54a-978e65c569fb@bbiw.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="------------ms020300070100010208060902" Archived-At: Cc: appsawg-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme@ietf.org, art@ietf.org Subject: Re: [art] Stephen Farrell's Discuss on draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-15: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 16:45:35 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms020300070100010208060902 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 13/12/16 16:11, Dave Crocker wrote: > Steve, >=20 > Sorry, but I can't tell what the specific concern is... Please clarify= > with specific references. Sorry for being unclear. AFAIK (though I could be wrong) this would be the first time the IESG would have approved a proposed standard that directly duplicates text that is on the whatwg's web page [1] where they "define" (a la living std) URLs. [1] is a normative reference in W3C specs. If the above is the case, then I'd like the IESG to be explicit about doing that and living with the brokenness of which Ned gave us some examples. There is no change request/suggested in the spec itself. Cheers, S. [1] http://url.spec.whatwg.org/ >=20 > Inline... >=20 >=20 > On 12/13/2016 7:25 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >> Appendix C: this spec and the whatwg web page may or may not >> be in conflict. >=20 > 1. "May or may not" presumably means that your concern is we don't know= =2E > But since that lack of knowledge could be applied to a potentially > infinite set of web sites, what's the reasons for selecting this one to= > be concerned about? Further since there's clear text in Appendix C and= > text at the whatwg (but you don't cite which page), it's not clear why > the answer isn't clear. >=20 > 2. Since Appendix C is non-normative, what makes the concern of possibl= e > (but undocumented) divergence a reason for blocking with a Discuss? >=20 > 3. If there is a deeper concern that you are raising, I've missed it. >=20 >=20 >> I think this may be the first PS that we've >> produced where that fact finally hits that fan - is that >=20 > What fact? >=20 >=20 >> right? If not, then I'll clear as we'll already have decided >> there's nothing to be done about odd behaviour with >> "competing" specifications for the same thing (that thing >=20 > You haven't cited any competing specifications, not even possibly > competing ones. >=20 >=20 >> being RFC3986). If this is the first time we've gotten to >> this point, then I think the IESG ought explicitly decide >> that we are going to live with what we all know is a pretty >> crap situation where different implementers (web vs. non-web >> basically) supporting various kinds of URL/URI are liable to >> end up doing different and potentially non-interoperable >> things. (There is no action required from the author. For the >> IESG - we discussed this a couple of years back, but there >> have been some personnel changes since and I forget if the >> current set of ADs are or are not up to speed with and ok >> with this.) >=20 >=20 > d/ >=20 >=20 --------------ms020300070100010208060902 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCC CvIwggUIMIID8KADAgECAhBPzaE7pzYviUJyhmHTFBdnMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUAMHUxCzAJ BgNVBAYTAklMMRYwFAYDVQQKEw1TdGFydENvbSBMdGQuMSkwJwYDVQQLEyBTdGFydENvbSBD ZXJ0aWZpY2F0aW9uIEF1dGhvcml0eTEjMCEGA1UEAxMaU3RhcnRDb20gQ2xhc3MgMSBDbGll bnQgQ0EwHhcNMTYwMjA5MDkyODE1WhcNMTcwMjA5MDkyODE1WjBOMSIwIAYDVQQDDBlzdGVw aGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllMSgwJgYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhlzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxA Y3MudGNkLmllMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEAtuC0rYze/2JinSra 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X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8091A1299CB; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 09:38:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.792 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.792 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=bbiw.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K7e47vtAIwY1; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 09:38:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from simon.songbird.com (simon.songbird.com [72.52.113.5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C9E6B129A76; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 09:38:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.168] (76-218-8-128.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.8.128]) (authenticated bits=0) by simon.songbird.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-4.1ubuntu1) with ESMTP id uBDHdXkm013919 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 13 Dec 2016 09:39:34 -0800 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=bbiw.net; s=default; t=1481650774; bh=JzE1w3+w/NN3tm6C4F9wJL0a1NJoHP2L+EoI0PN2YWA=; h=Subject:To:References:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=hlwFr4sPKJNPmra8GzacWMgGYTx6viBQI3wIUOIRqwAOsKHbda/WBZ0A6B71fqEMz lnOe2mmFDXlxhvdN+F7P4CTJQG6Wt4mDCCNgAWtBxrn9pK7+Wwyfrvr26peBqJsrcd D8m3KkmPxLR4OzK2IxSeLrwDQKj0t/cwB6PAlHCc= To: Stephen Farrell , The IESG References: <148164272603.29334.6599219976221487711.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <254dd66d-9c18-a56d-c54a-978e65c569fb@bbiw.net> From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking Message-ID: <5487e711-dd33-be78-fd94-41fccd4ea42e@bbiw.net> Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 09:38:13 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: appsawg-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme@ietf.org, art@ietf.org Subject: Re: [art] Stephen Farrell's Discuss on draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-15: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 17:38:49 -0000 On 12/13/2016 8:45 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > AFAIK (though I could be wrong) this would be the first time > the IESG would have approved a proposed standard that directly > duplicates text that is on the whatwg's web page [1] ... > [1] http://url.spec.whatwg.org/ Steve, Thanks. And yes, this is interesting. However your citation is to a long document and what we need to assess this sort of issue is some precision about what is being duplicated. The IETF draft isn't an exact duplicate of the whatwg url spec, if only because the IETF draft has undergone extensive revision within the IETF. So knowing exactly which text replicates exactly which text would help. It's clearly not a direct 'role' conflict about the basic purpose of each specification, since one document is for URLs and the other is for file schemes. Further, the file scheme draft has very few occurrences of the string "URL" (3 of which are in the whatwg citation and none that are normative) -- and none seem to be normative(!) The whatwg URL spec does contain a registry-ish entry for a 'file' scheme and some text that might be intended to serve as a specification, though it's quite terse. So we still need to refine the problem statement. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Tue Dec 13 09:46:04 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CED0129407; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 09:45:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.792 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.792 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=dcrocker.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CvZJL7Zr51aT; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 09:45:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from simon.songbird.com (simon.songbird.com [72.52.113.5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B6375129454; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 09:45:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.168] (76-218-8-128.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.8.128]) (authenticated bits=0) by simon.songbird.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-4.1ubuntu1) with ESMTP id uBDHl2B7014202 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 13 Dec 2016 09:47:02 -0800 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=dcrocker.net; s=default; t=1481651223; bh=kiNqf9MLV7LOHxCqQJ+LOHwnrxNK4AF1YEzSDUpI9sM=; h=From:Subject:To:References:Cc:Reply-To:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=N//saqpZfaMVi2AoyF39M7Ooa/oyigr4JXkXgoTOwymXJht0IdPS+dsw+b5mcnvIg Rb0AlQdAe9LRn941GNkWUErSD6PVeTrYXVPTSxp/UzZ/I/PugAK/8gkq3tvrMSiPZO TMXl02bsi1ohnBH9jQb0ihX+4VABSgzt+V4MLV80= From: Dave Crocker To: Stephen Farrell , The IESG References: <148164272603.29334.6599219976221487711.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <254dd66d-9c18-a56d-c54a-978e65c569fb@bbiw.net> Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking Message-ID: <403b16d9-70e7-4250-7252-e2b98ca263b5@dcrocker.net> Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 09:45:42 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: appsawg-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme@ietf.org, art@ietf.org Subject: Re: [art] Stephen Farrell's Discuss on draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-15: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 17:45:57 -0000 On 12/13/2016 8:45 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > AFAIK (though I could be wrong) this would be the first time > the IESG would have approved a proposed standard that directly > duplicates text that is on the whatwg's web page [1] ... > [1] http://url.spec.whatwg.org/ Steve, Thanks. And yes, this is interesting. However your citation is to a long document and what we need to assess this sort of issue is some precision about what is being duplicated. The IETF draft isn't an exact duplicate of the whatwg url spec, if only because the IETF draft has undergone extensive revision within the IETF. So knowing exactly which text replicates exactly which text would help. It's clearly not a direct 'role' conflict about the basic purpose of each specification, since one document is for URLs and the other is for file schemes. Further, the file scheme draft has very few occurrences of the string "URL" (3 of which are in the whatwg citation and none that are normative) -- and none seem to be normative(!) The whatwg URL spec does contain a registry-ish entry for a 'file' scheme and some text that might be intended to serve as a specification, though it's quite terse. So we still need to refine the problem statement. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Tue Dec 13 09:46:20 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8DD31298A1; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 09:46:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.792 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.792 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=dcrocker.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zu1nsO9_ZdiN; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 09:46:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from simon.songbird.com (simon.songbird.com [72.52.113.5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 467F1129524; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 09:46:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.168] (76-218-8-128.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.8.128]) (authenticated bits=0) by simon.songbird.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-4.1ubuntu1) with ESMTP id uBDHlKM1014219 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 13 Dec 2016 09:47:21 -0800 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=dcrocker.net; s=default; t=1481651241; bh=U3FqWJbd234Vi4NkiIpqh8uXlz+e9JBIJmQSeVcw+NY=; h=From:Subject:To:References:Cc:Reply-To:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=Ll0gVcQXOO++PgmKeUS41M4w3wbQVzF/1wnI0lthPVg+HWFVvRX8k3/vD6tZIMCoa VpY6fxTIf7WorKRFNqpNJ2y9DUeKHBNFII6+XR0jmeDXhmGK8eeNVy7GJcWY7EbLcI xtpqPQcmu8ZN4EX6VuZrAniJv+1xp9CtCULe65qI= From: Dave Crocker To: Stephen Farrell , The IESG References: <148164272603.29334.6599219976221487711.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking Message-ID: <69e8c3e0-4a59-d379-24f9-7ca9aacfb4d5@dcrocker.net> Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 09:46:00 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <148164272603.29334.6599219976221487711.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: appsawg-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme@ietf.org, art@ietf.org Subject: Re: [art] Stephen Farrell's Discuss on draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-15: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 17:46:15 -0000 Steve, Sorry, but I can't tell what the specific concern is... Please clarify with specific references. Inline... On 12/13/2016 7:25 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > Appendix C: this spec and the whatwg web page may or may not > be in conflict. 1. "May or may not" presumably means that your concern is we don't know. But since that lack of knowledge could be applied to a potentially infinite set of web sites, what's the reasons for selecting this one to be concerned about? Further since there's clear text in Appendix C and text at the whatwg (but you don't cite which page), it's not clear why the answer isn't clear. 2. Since Appendix C is non-normative, what makes the concern of possible (but undocumented) divergence a reason for blocking with a Discuss? 3. If there is a deeper concern that you are raising, I've missed it. > I think this may be the first PS that we've > produced where that fact finally hits that fan - is that What fact? > right? If not, then I'll clear as we'll already have decided > there's nothing to be done about odd behaviour with > "competing" specifications for the same thing (that thing You haven't cited any competing specifications, not even possibly competing ones. > being RFC3986). If this is the first time we've gotten to > this point, then I think the IESG ought explicitly decide > that we are going to live with what we all know is a pretty > crap situation where different implementers (web vs. non-web > basically) supporting various kinds of URL/URI are liable to > end up doing different and potentially non-interoperable > things. (There is no action required from the author. For the > IESG - we discussed this a couple of years back, but there > have been some personnel changes since and I forget if the > current set of ADs are or are not up to speed with and ok > with this.) d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Tue Dec 13 09:57:09 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0EB2129454; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 09:57:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-2.896, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RbYeC3mORHXC; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 09:57:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 042331293E9; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 09:57:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5314FBE2E; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 17:57:01 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n73DzVg21aR8; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 17:56:59 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.87.48.210] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 507B2BE49; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 17:56:57 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1481651817; bh=HhpQFoVLficZqx2G5qWh5euO5qnvLUQeOVszt9bb28U=; h=Subject:To:References:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=qIOOCpURV+Ir/iorZ+cF/75tRsQjk8YQU1TDcFjlQljb0Gi/45KjkqFx/xSo8z1E9 imuDJZVwRhXw5FkiIiY/qTJrPmwgIdHJ2pi2+QJu7MrU4xhoqQYoS9TXUYI8Fpc2Sh Oit7MlUF4yZa3JaUWDHCBPlz9yVY/Vgit7A+qWFY= To: dcrocker@bbiw.net, The IESG References: <148164272603.29334.6599219976221487711.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <254dd66d-9c18-a56d-c54a-978e65c569fb@bbiw.net> <403b16d9-70e7-4250-7252-e2b98ca263b5@dcrocker.net> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=D66EA7906F0B897FB2E97D582F3C8736805F8DA2; url= Message-ID: <80d86bf6-fdfd-8751-04ce-22a7926f2317@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 17:56:56 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <403b16d9-70e7-4250-7252-e2b98ca263b5@dcrocker.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="------------ms060707040200020509040305" Archived-At: Cc: appsawg-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme@ietf.org, art@ietf.org Subject: Re: [art] Stephen Farrell's Discuss on draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-15: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 17:57:08 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms060707040200020509040305 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Dave, On 13/12/16 17:45, Dave Crocker wrote: > On 12/13/2016 8:45 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >> AFAIK (though I could be wrong) this would be the first time >> the IESG would have approved a proposed standard that directly >> duplicates text that is on the whatwg's web page [1] > ... >> [1] http://url.spec.whatwg.org/ >=20 >=20 > Steve, >=20 > Thanks. And yes, this is interesting. >=20 > However your citation is to a long document and what we need to assess > this sort of issue is some precision about what is being duplicated. Given that [1] is liable to change at any time, and that that is a deliberate decision and goal of the authors of [1] the fact that there isn't a specific divergence today for the file scheme is not the only concern. Note: I'm not saying (here) that the IETF approach to documents is better than whatwg's just that they differ. As does the scope of 3986 and updates vs. [1]. The potential divergence between (some?) web developers following [1] and other folks following RFCs is my main issue. (The IESG and IAB and W3C liaisons engaged on trying to get this fixed a while back. No success on that sadly.) >=20 > The IETF draft isn't an exact duplicate of the whatwg url spec, if only= > because the IETF draft has undergone extensive revision within the IETF= =2E >=20 > So knowing exactly which text replicates exactly which text would help.= I didn't say there was such a direct conflict for this draft. (TBH I actually don't recall if there is, it's been ages since I read [1].) >=20 > It's clearly not a direct 'role' conflict about the basic purpose of > each specification, since one document is for URLs and the other is for= > file schemes. >=20 > Further, the file scheme draft has very few occurrences of the string > "URL" (3 of which are in the whatwg citation and none that are > normative) -- and none seem to be normative(!) >=20 > The whatwg URL spec does contain a registry-ish entry for a 'file' > scheme and some text that might be intended to serve as a specification= , > though it's quite terse. Yeah, that is a pretty clear conflict with the IANA registry for schemes. >=20 > So we still need to refine the problem statement. I don't think we do. There may be further detailed problems for the file scheme, but the discuss point I've raised is to ask the IESG to consider whether or not we're gonna grin and bear this particular kind of (IMO possibly damaging) duplication. I suspect that the only practical answer is to do just that for at least the time for which [1] is considered useful to web developers. S. [1] is the same [1] as before:-) >=20 > d/ >=20 --------------ms060707040200020509040305 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCC CvIwggUIMIID8KADAgECAhBPzaE7pzYviUJyhmHTFBdnMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUAMHUxCzAJ BgNVBAYTAklMMRYwFAYDVQQKEw1TdGFydENvbSBMdGQuMSkwJwYDVQQLEyBTdGFydENvbSBD ZXJ0aWZpY2F0aW9uIEF1dGhvcml0eTEjMCEGA1UEAxMaU3RhcnRDb20gQ2xhc3MgMSBDbGll bnQgQ0EwHhcNMTYwMjA5MDkyODE1WhcNMTcwMjA5MDkyODE1WjBOMSIwIAYDVQQDDBlzdGVw aGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllMSgwJgYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhlzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxA Y3MudGNkLmllMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEAtuC0rYze/2JinSra C9F2RjGdQZjNALLcW9C3WKTwYII3wBslobmHuPEYE5JaGItmzuKnAW619R1rD/kfoNWC19N3 rBZ6UX9Cmb9D9exCwYIwVuSwjrCQWGxgCtNQTrwKzCCpI790GRiMTvxvO7UmzmBrCaBLiZW5 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Tue, 13 Dec 2016 10:12:35 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Alissa Cooper" To: "The IESG" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.39.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <148165275568.29430.5277140526915429435.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 10:12:35 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: appsawg-chairs@ietf.org, dcrocker@bbiw.net, draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme@ietf.org, art@ietf.org Subject: [art] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-15: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 18:12:36 -0000 Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-15: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I support Stephen's DISCUSS. From nobody Tue Dec 13 10:20:38 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EE9D1293E9; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 10:20:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.792 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.792 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=dcrocker.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ADQ1nFx5zdP4; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 10:20:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from simon.songbird.com (simon.songbird.com [72.52.113.5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 067301296B4; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 10:20:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.168] (76-218-8-128.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.8.128]) (authenticated bits=0) by simon.songbird.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-4.1ubuntu1) with ESMTP id uBDILUpB016170 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 13 Dec 2016 10:21:30 -0800 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=dcrocker.net; s=default; t=1481653291; bh=+hM3mf8YPh50vnD53OeLxpIXTeuKzhhD50W1Y7+NZqs=; h=Subject:To:References:Cc:Reply-To:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=Fxq76sydzjza7g9TemusIi4NkjXbClPMJi31w8JHf3JIONsXGdPBIVWFYKHwIFHr+ D+SOfaHoZe/vTSU5A0q5uJ0bvBxffmiZEESTIh4YDpvWfRv33XkievK5uzgB3oPuW3 LQSmbJkKSnmuubY2cbROLOL/T/G3bxmoFD0W9AkE= To: Ned Freed , Stephen Farrell References: <148164272603.29334.6599219976221487711.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <01Q8FCOR8IYU011H9Q@mauve.mrochek.com> From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking Message-ID: Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 10:20:10 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <01Q8FCOR8IYU011H9Q@mauve.mrochek.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: appsawg-chairs@ietf.org, The IESG , draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme@ietf.org, art@ietf.org Subject: Re: [art] Stephen Farrell's Discuss on draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-15: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 18:20:27 -0000 On 12/13/2016 8:12 AM, Ned Freed wrote: > In the email space at least, competing specifications have been the norm > for 30+ years. So you'll have to pardon me for not getting too excited > about this. Even within the IETF. SMTP and RFC 5322 have some redundant definitions, because Postel and I didn't appreciate the need to avoid this... d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Tue Dec 13 10:31:01 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BC2012965B; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 10:30:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.792 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.792 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=dcrocker.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SSDSYKDrdBaG; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 10:30:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from simon.songbird.com (simon.songbird.com [72.52.113.5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 83845129641; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 10:30:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.168] (76-218-8-128.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.8.128]) (authenticated bits=0) by simon.songbird.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-4.1ubuntu1) with ESMTP id uBDIW0NM016431 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 13 Dec 2016 10:32:00 -0800 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=dcrocker.net; s=default; t=1481653921; bh=tArTN5AY2IJ4z9rgHZHZd2tjeHgplYyRHzJmTUINPHQ=; h=Subject:To:References:Cc:From:Reply-To:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=dwcpxYpbVMA4UUzF5ywVIvqVjemu6o9hdCQcOJwVPstAae9b7MMbSL+Foa1UW7DYW vWkt0MvJgPb47+MpBM1DS6UPFVrsMVbuF4LQwqdrxbsURTfPDAkIXgnJJjOxwWTZ65 UJM9HfCJ2mF9RJoP/4W/18wifr2ea1RmpSrD9mzs= To: Stephen Farrell , The IESG References: <148164272603.29334.6599219976221487711.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <254dd66d-9c18-a56d-c54a-978e65c569fb@bbiw.net> <403b16d9-70e7-4250-7252-e2b98ca263b5@dcrocker.net> <80d86bf6-fdfd-8751-04ce-22a7926f2317@cs.tcd.ie> From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking Message-ID: Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 10:30:40 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <80d86bf6-fdfd-8751-04ce-22a7926f2317@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: appsawg-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme@ietf.org, art@ietf.org Subject: Re: [art] Stephen Farrell's Discuss on draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-15: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 18:30:56 -0000 On 12/13/2016 9:56 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > but the discuss point I've raised is to ask the > IESG to consider whether or not we're gonna grin and bear this > particular kind of (IMO possibly damaging) duplication. I suspect > that the only practical answer is to do just that for at least > the time for which [1] is considered useful to web developers. Stephen, Small point of procedure: The current draft is an update to an existing RFC (1738) on URLs, which is dated 1994. I doubt the whatwg work goes back that far. So the concern you are raising is for the later, independent decisions of an independent group, and its possible, future divergences from existing work that was published in the IETF 22 years ago and is now being revised. In effect the concern you are raising is about the basic existence of the (earlier) IETF work, not about a new detail. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Tue Dec 13 10:43:21 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D1681293E8; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 10:43:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gbiv.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R41ojRFdGbJA; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 10:43:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from homiemail-a78.g.dreamhost.com (sub5.mail.dreamhost.com [208.113.200.129]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 11E731293FB; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 10:43:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from homiemail-a78.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a78.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B1FD48000A33; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 10:43:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=gbiv.com; h=content-type :mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=gbiv.com; bh=8c3MLBzJL2Apd+msZzanEDtz4LI=; b=PttumPxmcoiAu5+xVVoBByZ/saXY lpsEUHEL5gUwqWIGcHqhi8iiiLHQxLiemYJ0o64WNepK2VqnlIcbaUMojmFYNMpH QIL9kcvlOpB+BvLwU3Omol23ScQ2yt187540V6FFTdKzTniP3MqelcZmF8CZy6um uA/Jj7dizw1yQko= Received: from [192.168.1.3] (ip68-228-71-159.oc.oc.cox.net [68.228.71.159]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: fielding@gbiv.com) by homiemail-a78.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3BD6B48000A30; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 10:43:17 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: "Roy T. Fielding" In-Reply-To: <80d86bf6-fdfd-8751-04ce-22a7926f2317@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 10:43:16 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <148164272603.29334.6599219976221487711.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <254dd66d-9c18-a56d-c54a-978e65c569fb@bbiw.net> <403b16d9-70e7-4250-7252-e2b98ca263b5@dcrocker.net> <80d86bf6-fdfd-8751-04ce-22a7926f2317@cs.tcd.ie> To: Stephen Farrell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Cc: appsawg-chairs@ietf.org, art@ietf.org, dcrocker@bbiw.net, draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme@ietf.org, The IESG Subject: Re: [art] Stephen Farrell's Discuss on draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-15: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 18:43:20 -0000 > On Dec 13, 2016, at 9:56 AM, Stephen Farrell = wrote: >=20 >=20 > Hi Dave, >=20 > On 13/12/16 17:45, Dave Crocker wrote: >> On 12/13/2016 8:45 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >>> AFAIK (though I could be wrong) this would be the first time >>> the IESG would have approved a proposed standard that directly >>> duplicates text that is on the whatwg's web page [1] >> ... >>> [1] http://url.spec.whatwg.org/ >>=20 >>=20 >> Steve, >>=20 >> Thanks. And yes, this is interesting. >>=20 >> However your citation is to a long document and what we need to = assess >> this sort of issue is some precision about what is being duplicated. >=20 > Given that [1] is liable to change at any time, and that that > is a deliberate decision and goal of the authors of [1] the > fact that there isn't a specific divergence today for the file > scheme is not the only concern. Note: I'm not saying (here) > that the IETF approach to documents is better than whatwg's > just that they differ. As does the scope of 3986 and updates > vs. [1]. >=20 > The potential divergence between (some?) web developers > following [1] and other folks following RFCs is my main issue. > (The IESG and IAB and W3C liaisons engaged on trying to get > this fixed a while back. No success on that sadly.) FTR, I do not consider the WHATWG spec to be anything other than one person's semi-formed opinions about how HTML5 browsers ought to process URL references within the browser environment and populate the "url" DOM object. They just use misleading terms for doing so. While the five active browser development groups might be willing to adhere to it, eventually, the spec disregards all other components of the Web and the implementation realities of anything not a browser. That is not a recipe for IETF-style interoperability. It has no relevance for HTTP server developers (aside from routing bug reports). One nice thing, though, is that if browsers do eventually implement the parsing of Unicode-based references with greater consistency, we can finally write more than just an appendix on how to parse all references regardless of protocol or media type. Such a document (developed within the IETF) could be used to update RFC3986. ....Roy From nobody Tue Dec 13 16:29:40 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8925129510; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 16:29:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.922 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.922 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MJ7NgjKkyEwP; Tue, 13 Dec 2016 16:29:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM03-DM3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-dm3nam03on0067.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.41.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8559D1293E1; 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protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=SHA1; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0075_01D255F4.F4BD17E0" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: qut.edu.au X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Dec 2016 00:29:33.6197 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: dc0b52a3-68c5-44f7-881d-9383d8850b96 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MWHPR01MB2672 Archived-At: Cc: "appsawg-chairs@ietf.org" , "dcrocker@bbiw.net" , "draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme@ietf.org" , "art@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [art] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_No_Objection_on_draft-ie?= =?utf-8?q?tf-appsawg-file-scheme-15=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 00:29:39 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_0075_01D255F4.F4BD17E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mirja, From: Mirja Kuehlewind [mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net] Sent: Wednesday, 14 December 2016 02:22 > > > 'not' missing? > s/It would be impossible for this > specification to list all such significant characters and device > names. /It would not be impossible for this > specification to list all such significant characters and device > names. / No, it would be impossible to list them all. Instead the onus is on the implementer to research their targeted systems. The text could be changed to say "It would not be possible..." if that would help. Cheers -- Matthew Kerwin | QUT ------=_NextPart_000_0075_01D255F4.F4BD17E0 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIOOzCCBDYw ggMeoAMCAQICAQEwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwbzELMAkGA1UEBhMCU0UxFDASBgNVBAoTC0FkZFRy dXN0IEFCMSYwJAYDVQQLEx1BZGRUcnVzdCBFeHRlcm5hbCBUVFAgTmV0d29yazEiMCAGA1UEAxMZ QWRkVHJ1c3QgRXh0ZXJuYWwgQ0EgUm9vdDAeFw0wMDA1MzAxMDQ4MzhaFw0yMDA1MzAxMDQ4Mzha MG8xCzAJBgNVBAYTAlNFMRQwEgYDVQQKEwtBZGRUcnVzdCBBQjEmMCQGA1UECxMdQWRkVHJ1c3Qg RXh0ZXJuYWwgVFRQIE5ldHdvcmsxIjAgBgNVBAMTGUFkZFRydXN0IEV4dGVybmFsIENBIFJvb3Qw ggEiMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQC39xoz5vIABC054E5b7R+8bA/Ntfojts7e mxEzl6QpTH2Tn71KvJPtAxrjj8/lbVBa1pcplFqAsEl62y6V/bjKvzc4LR4+kUGtcFbH8E8/6DKe dMrIkFTpxl8PeJ2aQDwOrGGqXhSPnoehalDc15pOrwWzpnGUnHGzUGAKxxOdOAeGAqjpqGkmGJCr TLBPI6s6T4TY386f4Wlvu9dC12tE5Met7m1BX3JacQg3s3llpFmglDf3AC8NwpJy2tA4ctsUqEXE 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(Postfix) with ESMTP id D952B129D66 for ; Wed, 14 Dec 2016 03:28:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.798 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.798 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-2.896, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zZEVGheavTDJ for ; Wed, 14 Dec 2016 03:28:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from kuehlewind.net (kuehlewind.net [83.169.45.111]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 815A5129D8F for ; Wed, 14 Dec 2016 03:28:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 11902 invoked from network); 14 Dec 2016 12:28:08 +0100 Received: from p5dec2786.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (HELO ?192.168.178.33?) (93.236.39.134) by kuehlewind.net with ESMTPSA (DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA encrypted, authenticated); 14 Dec 2016 12:28:07 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.1 \(3251\)) From: "Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF)" In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 12:28:07 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <175F40E0-B527-40AD-9915-F69DE8E8AE86@kuehlewind.net> References: <148164612085.29338.16482342179318328081.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: Matthew Kerwin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3251) Archived-At: Cc: "appsawg-chairs@ietf.org" , "art@ietf.org" , The IESG , "draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme@ietf.org" , "dcrocker@bbiw.net" Subject: Re: [art] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_No_Objection_on_draft-ie?= =?utf-8?q?tf-appsawg-file-scheme-15=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 11:28:16 -0000 Sorry=E2=80=A6 I read =E2=80=9Apossible=E2=80=98 instead of = =E2=80=9Aimpossible=E2=80=98... I read the sentence at least twice and = didn=E2=80=99t manage to phrase but that=E2=80=99s my fault... too much = draft reading i guess... forget about it. > Am 14.12.2016 um 01:29 schrieb Matthew Kerwin = : >=20 > Hi Mirja, >=20 > From: Mirja Kuehlewind [mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net] > Sent: Wednesday, 14 December 2016 02:22 >>=20 >>=20 >> 'not' missing? >> s/It would be impossible for this >> specification to list all such significant characters and device >> names. /It would not be impossible for this >> specification to list all such significant characters and device >> names. / >=20 > No, it would be impossible to list them all. Instead the onus is on = the=20 > implementer to research their targeted systems. >=20 > The text could be changed to say "It would not be possible..." if that = would=20 > help. >=20 > Cheers > --=20 > Matthew Kerwin | QUT >=20 From nobody Wed Dec 14 13:09:45 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietf.org Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92171129533; Wed, 14 Dec 2016 13:09:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Ben Campbell" To: "The IESG" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.39.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <148174978359.16872.6615576098350625978.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 13:09:43 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: appsawg-chairs@ietf.org, dcrocker@bbiw.net, draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme@ietf.org, art@ietf.org Subject: [art] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-15: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 21:09:43 -0000 Ben Campbell has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-15: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - I support Stephen's DISCUSS - Section 5: "Implementers MUST research" and "Care MUST be taken" both seem like requirements on people, not on implementations. Furthermore, "research" and "taking of care" are vague in terms of expected results. Can these be recast into concrete expectations of implementation behavior? From nobody Wed Dec 14 20:55:55 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2891712956F; Wed, 14 Dec 2016 20:55:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.903 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.903 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 944wkjzh0J_a; Wed, 14 Dec 2016 20:55:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM01-SN1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-sn1nam01on0072.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.32.72]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 674FF129567; Wed, 14 Dec 2016 20:55:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from MWHPR01MB2670.prod.exchangelabs.com (10.172.165.8) by MWHPR01MB2669.prod.exchangelabs.com (10.172.165.7) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.771.8; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 04:55:36 +0000 Received: from MWHPR01MB2670.prod.exchangelabs.com ([10.172.165.8]) by MWHPR01MB2670.prod.exchangelabs.com ([10.172.165.8]) with mapi id 15.01.0771.014; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 04:55:36 +0000 From: Matthew Kerwin To: Stephen Farrell , "dcrocker@bbiw.net" , The IESG Thread-Topic: [art] Stephen Farrell's Discuss on draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-15: (with DISCUSS) Thread-Index: AQHSVVUk2lqRrDIuH0K5RKXtwvOYVKEGDIsAgAAJZ4CAABDWAIAAAyMAgAJCBWA= Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 04:55:35 +0000 Message-ID: References: <148164272603.29334.6599219976221487711.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <254dd66d-9c18-a56d-c54a-978e65c569fb@bbiw.net> <403b16d9-70e7-4250-7252-e2b98ca263b5@dcrocker.net> <80d86bf6-fdfd-8751-04ce-22a7926f2317@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <80d86bf6-fdfd-8751-04ce-22a7926f2317@cs.tcd.ie> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=matthew.kerwin@qut.edu.au; 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protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=SHA1; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0138_01D256E3.490428E0" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: qut.edu.au X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 15 Dec 2016 04:55:35.8183 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: dc0b52a3-68c5-44f7-881d-9383d8850b96 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MWHPR01MB2669 Archived-At: Cc: "appsawg-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme@ietf.org" , "art@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [art] Stephen Farrell's Discuss on draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-15: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 04:55:53 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_0138_01D256E3.490428E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Stephen Farrell [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie] Sent: Wednesday, 14 December 2016 03:57 > > Hi Dave, > > On 13/12/16 17:45, Dave Crocker wrote: > >> On 12/13/2016 8:45 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >> >>> AFAIK (though I could be wrong) this would be the first time >>> the IESG would have approved a proposed standard that directly >>> duplicates text that is on the whatwg's web page [1] >> ... >>> [1] http://url.spec.whatwg.org/ >> >> >> Steve, >> >> Thanks. And yes, this is interesting. >> >> However your citation is to a long document and what we need to assess >> this sort of issue is some precision about what is being duplicated. > > Given that [1] is liable to change at any time, and that that > is a deliberate decision and goal of the authors of [1] the > fact that there isn't a specific divergence today for the file > scheme is not the only concern. Note: I'm not saying (here) > that the IETF approach to documents is better than whatwg's > just that they differ. As does the scope of 3986 and updates > vs. [1]. > > The potential divergence between (some?) web developers > following [1] and other folks following RFCs is my main issue. > (The IESG and IAB and W3C liaisons engaged on trying to get > this fixed a while back. No success on that sadly.) > [snip] >> >> So we still need to refine the problem statement. > > I don't think we do. There may be further detailed problems for > the file scheme, but the discuss point I've raised is to ask the > IESG to consider whether or not we're gonna grin and bear this > particular kind of (IMO possibly damaging) duplication. I suspect > that the only practical answer is to do just that for at least > the time for which [1] is considered useful to web developers. > > S. Is this any different from RFC 7230? The 'http' and 'https' URI schemes are definitely also included in [1], and there's no way to guarantee they are or will remain entirely compatible. Maybe browser interest in both groups/specs will keep them in line; maybe there'll be another schism one day. 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(protection.outlook.com: qut.edu.au does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=SHA1; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0141_01D256ED.ACF0B620" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: qut.edu.au X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 15 Dec 2016 06:09:57.8612 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: dc0b52a3-68c5-44f7-881d-9383d8850b96 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MWHPR01MB2669 Archived-At: Cc: "appsawg-chairs@ietf.org" , "dcrocker@bbiw.net" , "draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme@ietf.org" , "art@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [art] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-15: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 06:10:05 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_0141_01D256ED.ACF0B620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ben, From: Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, 15 December 2016 07:10 > > - Section 5: "Implementers MUST research" and "Care MUST be taken" > both seem like requirements on people, not on implementations. > Furthermore, "research" and "taking of care" are vague in terms of > expected results. > Can these be recast into concrete expectations of implementation > behavior? I understand what you're asking, and why, but I don't know if it's = within my wordsmithing capabilities. If I changed the RFC2119 normative = keywords to regular English words I think that would make the problem go = away; would the resulting text be enough for security considerations? The "MUST research" paragraph comes almost verbatim from RFC3986, = Section 7.5, but that says "should" instead of "MUST" -- I'd be happy to = move back in that direction here. Cheers --=20 Matthew Kerwin Senior Web Developer, Queensland University of Technology Enterprise Information Services (EIS) =E2=80=93 Application Services, = Library Services Level 2, KG-SYN | GPO Box 2434 | Brisbane, Qld Australia 4001 CRICOS No 00213J ------=_NextPart_000_0141_01D256ED.ACF0B620 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIOOzCCBDYw ggMeoAMCAQICAQEwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwbzELMAkGA1UEBhMCU0UxFDASBgNVBAoTC0FkZFRy dXN0IEFCMSYwJAYDVQQLEx1BZGRUcnVzdCBFeHRlcm5hbCBUVFAgTmV0d29yazEiMCAGA1UEAxMZ QWRkVHJ1c3QgRXh0ZXJuYWwgQ0EgUm9vdDAeFw0wMDA1MzAxMDQ4MzhaFw0yMDA1MzAxMDQ4Mzha MG8xCzAJBgNVBAYTAlNFMRQwEgYDVQQKEwtBZGRUcnVzdCBBQjEmMCQGA1UECxMdQWRkVHJ1c3Qg RXh0ZXJuYWwgVFRQIE5ldHdvcmsxIjAgBgNVBAMTGUFkZFRydXN0IEV4dGVybmFsIENBIFJvb3Qw ggEiMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQC39xoz5vIABC054E5b7R+8bA/Ntfojts7e 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"draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme@ietf.org" , "art@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [art] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-15: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 06:16:04 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_014D_01D256EE.8328A590 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The "MUST research" paragraph comes almost verbatim from RFC3986, > Section 7.5, but that says "should" instead of "MUST" -- I'd be > happy to move back in that direction here. Sorry, Section 7.3. -- Matthew Kerwin | QUT ------=_NextPart_000_014D_01D256EE.8328A590 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIOOzCCBDYw ggMeoAMCAQICAQEwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwbzELMAkGA1UEBhMCU0UxFDASBgNVBAoTC0FkZFRy dXN0IEFCMSYwJAYDVQQLEx1BZGRUcnVzdCBFeHRlcm5hbCBUVFAgTmV0d29yazEiMCAGA1UEAxMZ QWRkVHJ1c3QgRXh0ZXJuYWwgQ0EgUm9vdDAeFw0wMDA1MzAxMDQ4MzhaFw0yMDA1MzAxMDQ4Mzha MG8xCzAJBgNVBAYTAlNFMRQwEgYDVQQKEwtBZGRUcnVzdCBBQjEmMCQGA1UECxMdQWRkVHJ1c3Qg RXh0ZXJuYWwgVFRQIE5ldHdvcmsxIjAgBgNVBAMTGUFkZFRydXN0IEV4dGVybmFsIENBIFJvb3Qw ggEiMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQC39xoz5vIABC054E5b7R+8bA/Ntfojts7e mxEzl6QpTH2Tn71KvJPtAxrjj8/lbVBa1pcplFqAsEl62y6V/bjKvzc4LR4+kUGtcFbH8E8/6DKe dMrIkFTpxl8PeJ2aQDwOrGGqXhSPnoehalDc15pOrwWzpnGUnHGzUGAKxxOdOAeGAqjpqGkmGJCr 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art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BFDA129462; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 00:18:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-2.896, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l1UW5P70tq4b; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 00:18:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 19C39129979; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 00:18:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37309BE74; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 08:18:16 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bZfWyBqo9qkQ; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 08:18:15 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.87.48.210] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5D894BE73; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 08:18:14 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1481789894; bh=A0jwJw0foLbS/FSulIkheS5FSHmhU8wyRgstc9IfkAE=; h=Subject:To:References:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=jEoXzsN8UzbZQS3KosI1gV/pbrxO8kq6+9I43nXtBa85d7ehD3ARKlLbOSESkS5AH CP3L2Uzp39cXLCbAa94G1/PYQgCkbHr54MBZ8Q7k4wg/WJDkBXO2UV/6p9TjYYdEwE vUv0ye+oq6dzNDgcvQBSdx31I+ft8dXUCL6jS0pY= To: Matthew Kerwin , "dcrocker@bbiw.net" , The IESG References: <148164272603.29334.6599219976221487711.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <254dd66d-9c18-a56d-c54a-978e65c569fb@bbiw.net> <403b16d9-70e7-4250-7252-e2b98ca263b5@dcrocker.net> <80d86bf6-fdfd-8751-04ce-22a7926f2317@cs.tcd.ie> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=D66EA7906F0B897FB2E97D582F3C8736805F8DA2; url= Message-ID: <438b39ce-21d0-9ebe-0ecd-0e7ad62fcb0b@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 08:18:10 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="------------ms020609020601090004090607" Archived-At: Cc: "appsawg-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme@ietf.org" , "art@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [art] Stephen Farrell's Discuss on draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-15: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 08:18:22 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms020609020601090004090607 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 15/12/16 04:55, Matthew Kerwin wrote: > Is this any different from RFC 7230? The 'http' and 'https' URI schemes= are=20 > definitely also included in [1], and there's no way to guarantee they a= re or=20 > will remain entirely compatible. Maybe browser interest in both groups/= specs=20 > will keep them in line; maybe there'll be another schism one day. That's a fair point. I don't recall this issue being specifically raised during IESG evaluation of that set of documents, and I'm not sure if there was still hope at that point for a rational solution to the forking-3986 problem or not. In any case, I suspect the IESG will discuss this later today after which I'll clear, so please bear with us a little while. 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[10.202.2.47]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ACBC20875; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 12:47:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from frontend2 ([10.202.2.161]) by compute7.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 15 Dec 2016 12:47:38 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cooperw.in; h=cc :content-type:date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:subject:to:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc :x-sasl-enc; s=mesmtp; bh=lp9ujE4I3FkDi7I0yvY4Risv9Ek=; b=pYWVFg 76htYQcBEKzCFmeZ7YnCDrIPtxyPstrvvKAWbLIQM0zx38i0ObbAp17Gm9eXRK67 5swRF+lnnovLM8OJeIPUCpwAsB5s39d/9bD7Zx5lh3p9IW0eFCY7XF/Kg7/M1CeD MXYaREy7Yz7ku6+kI4REyHok/+rB7ZgTEPFDs= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc:x-sasl-enc; s=smtpout; bh=lp9ujE4I3FkDi7 I0yvY4Risv9Ek=; b=HbzzpmtcteFXwvrq0sEYaqVzXtrUpPC0RIyqY+YK4nkLzn 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X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 17:47:41 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_19F457D0-A63A-448F-A5AB-8EC68C28565F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 The IESG had a discussion on today=E2=80=99s telechat about Stephen=E2=80=99= s DISCUSS (below), which he has cleared. During that discussion I = volunteered to suggest a bit of additional text to describe the existing = reference to https://url.spec.whatwg.org/ = in draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme because I think the current text = doesn=E2=80=99t quite capture the full extent of the referenced document = nor the potential implications for implementors of this spec. Here is my suggestion for Appendix C: =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 OLD=20 The WHATWG defines a living URL standard [WHATWG-URL], which includes = algorithms for interpreting file URIs (as URLs). NEW=20 The WHATWG defines a living URL standard [WHATWG-URL], which includes = algorithms for interpreting file URIs (as URLs) and URL syntax = definitions which may or may not be consistent with this specification = at any point in time. =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 Just a suggestion. Alissa > On Dec 13, 2016, at 10:25 AM, Stephen Farrell = wrote: >=20 > Stephen Farrell has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-15: Discuss >=20 > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut = this > introductory paragraph, however.) >=20 >=20 > Please refer to = https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >=20 >=20 > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme/ >=20 >=20 >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > DISCUSS: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 >=20 > Appendix C: this spec and the whatwg web page may or may not > be in conflict. I think this may be the first PS that we've > produced where that fact finally hits that fan - is that > right? If not, then I'll clear as we'll already have decided > there's nothing to be done about odd behaviour with > "competing" specifications for the same thing (that thing > being RFC3986). If this is the first time we've gotten to > this point, then I think the IESG ought explicitly decide > that we are going to live with what we all know is a pretty > crap situation where different implementers (web vs. non-web > basically) supporting various kinds of URL/URI are liable to > end up doing different and potentially non-interoperable > things. (There is no action required from the author. For the > IESG - we discussed this a couple of years back, but there > have been some personnel changes since and I forget if the > current set of ADs are or are not up to speed with and ok > with this.) >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_19F457D0-A63A-448F-A5AB-8EC68C28565F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
The IESG had a discussion on today=E2=80=99s = telechat about Stephen=E2=80=99s DISCUSS (below), which he has cleared. = During that discussion I volunteered to suggest a bit of additional text = to describe the existing reference to https://url.spec.whatwg.org/ in draft-ietf-appsaw= g-file-scheme because I think the current text doesn=E2=80=99t quite = capture the full extent of the referenced document nor the potential = implications for implementors of this spec.

Here is my suggestion for Appendix = C:
=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94
OLD 
The WHATWG = defines a living URL standard [WHATWG-URL], which includes algorithms = for interpreting file URIs (as URLs).

NEW 
The = WHATWG defines a living URL standard [WHATWG-URL], which includes = algorithms for interpreting file URIs (as URLs) and URL syntax = definitions which may or may not be consistent with this specification = at any point in time.
=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=

Just a = suggestion.

Alissa

On Dec 13, 2016, at 10:25 AM, Stephen Farrell = <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:

Stephen Farrell has entered the following ballot position = for
draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-15: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line = intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To = and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory = paragraph, however.)


Please = refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.htmlfor more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT = positions.


The document, = along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme= /



---------------------------------------------------------------= -------
DISCUSS:
---------------------------------------------------------------= -------


Appendix C: this = spec and the whatwg web page may or may not
be in = conflict. I think this may be the first PS that we've
produced where that fact finally hits that fan - is that
right? If not, then I'll clear as we'll already have = decided
there's nothing to be done about odd behaviour = with
"competing" specifications for the same thing (that = thing
being RFC3986). If this is the first time we've = gotten to
this point, then I think the IESG ought = explicitly decide
that we are going to live with what we = all know is a pretty
crap situation where different = implementers (web vs. non-web
basically) supporting = various kinds of URL/URI are liable to
end up doing = different and potentially non-interoperable
things. (There = is no action required from the author. For the
IESG - we = discussed this a couple of years back, but there
have been = some personnel changes since and I forget if the
current = set of ADs are or are not up to speed with and ok
with = this.)





= --Apple-Mail=_19F457D0-A63A-448F-A5AB-8EC68C28565F-- From nobody Thu Dec 15 10:02:46 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1799129B56; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 10:02:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kOlTSbbOYcyx; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 10:02:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk0-x22f.google.com (mail-qk0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5ED64129B92; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 10:02:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id n204so65225653qke.2; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 10:02:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=/5vC8C1+BtaIMpq5yvi9Jspcuhp7/y64dcbTn1Ah4ls=; b=Kpl2INtJhQKnQANAzQmPZYbxGbXzY4n+jjZKrKZxSWiC4GfKBUQQUxsd5gtNBP+SdM xVFfHOW9hPvPYwQrJNWdSX61T0ezpxDzYolgKS3vt9osktILusio1tfkzhr33+3UAQD3 b4t3sITreBn4W0pSBbU0363m2qUXg9Scor5GjIJZLf8diA23SOIto3pTemR0jcnaSeC/ GazybBavldid91UWA+aHjjnyeXcjzrdp3P5uzbA9oWIBq2bGUwRT/IzklcCIJzoXzxq4 T6+Vin107imOeeaVCoQtC89hpT7df36w84AufGGsU8gFZM1ObDSfBewF3PSRQi6peGZq YPuQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=/5vC8C1+BtaIMpq5yvi9Jspcuhp7/y64dcbTn1Ah4ls=; b=nTszpnagqHJ8HUirkF9yKQjrBQ4j4IjOAUoK/5gebt+EF12QE9yWj4qoI1oufQi191 BkDS79EwjUupyX2CpfoE1z7dl09wNZqdmQKZxOakGZN/B6+dprRkJ0vv85WLFCNdUZ+b wD3IxBDChZoju9ofdPqsYLaYvKH+oHVpky5J0tFObt99peYS2M9OrCOqxD6BKjBnnLZH bZrW8X6NEKrEf7AmR3jvdFjgsxuNEgJoQ9L3Iap9OUZbr8xnFN0CHXoP2uv7gaYtTbxP N+l2ukVafqDgeTXs25H5C0oDCCNSkqrRLIvzQKdB2QONSKW/hEQlDyveAvlrJdhzX6sC FSWQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJBv8LLFhAFpyYWwQ8ps2Yk0/nxlm4QEBTLd4MnG5OqZnY2ubiHz+WV7p4CA1S9AZJnG36tOWrChx0hvA== X-Received: by 10.55.125.194 with SMTP id y185mr1834393qkc.38.1481824946513; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 10:02:26 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.12.134.3 with HTTP; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 10:01:56 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <148164272603.29334.6599219976221487711.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Ted Hardie Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 10:01:56 -0800 Message-ID: To: Alissa Cooper Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c05e5cc8e71280543b641e4 Archived-At: Cc: appsawg-chairs@ietf.org, art@ietf.org, Dave Crocker , draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme@ietf.org, The IESG , Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [art] WHATWG URL spec citation in draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 18:02:39 -0000 --94eb2c05e5cc8e71280543b641e4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Howdy, If you are truly trying to capture this, I would say something like: "The WHATWG URL specification defines browser behavior for a variety of inputs, including file URIs. As a living document, it changes to reflect updates in browser behavior. As a result, its algorithms and syntax definitions may or may not be consistent with this specification. Implementors should be aware of this possible discrepancy if they expect to share file URIs with browsers that follow the WHATWG specification." Given that the WHATWG specification also purports to cover domains, IP addresses, and all other URL schemes, there are certainly other conflicts possible, but this text covers the immediate ground. Just my personal suggestion, Ted On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 9:47 AM, Alissa Cooper wrote: > The IESG had a discussion on today=E2=80=99s telechat about Stephen=E2=80= =99s DISCUSS > (below), which he has cleared. During that discussion I volunteered to > suggest a bit of additional text to describe the existing reference to > https://url.spec.whatwg.org/ in draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme because I > think the current text doesn=E2=80=99t quite capture the full extent of t= he > referenced document nor the potential implications for implementors of th= is > spec. > > Here is my suggestion for Appendix C: > =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 > OLD > The WHATWG defines a living URL standard [WHATWG-URL], which includes > algorithms for interpreting file URIs (as URLs). > > NEW > The WHATWG defines a living URL standard [WHATWG-URL], which includes > algorithms for interpreting file URIs (as URLs) and URL syntax definition= s > which may or may not be consistent with this specification at any point i= n > time. > =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 > > Just a suggestion. > > Alissa > > On Dec 13, 2016, at 10:25 AM, Stephen Farrell > wrote: > > Stephen Farrell has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-15: Discuss > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > DISCUSS: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Appendix C: this spec and the whatwg web page may or may not > be in conflict. I think this may be the first PS that we've > produced where that fact finally hits that fan - is that > right? If not, then I'll clear as we'll already have decided > there's nothing to be done about odd behaviour with > "competing" specifications for the same thing (that thing > being RFC3986). If this is the first time we've gotten to > this point, then I think the IESG ought explicitly decide > that we are going to live with what we all know is a pretty > crap situation where different implementers (web vs. non-web > basically) supporting various kinds of URL/URI are liable to > end up doing different and potentially non-interoperable > things. (There is no action required from the author. For the > IESG - we discussed this a couple of years back, but there > have been some personnel changes since and I forget if the > current set of ADs are or are not up to speed with and ok > with this.) > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > art mailing list > art@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art > > --94eb2c05e5cc8e71280543b641e4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Howdy,


If you are truly trying to capture this, I would say so= mething like:

"The WHATWG URL = specification defines browser behavior for a variety of inputs, including f= ile URIs.=C2=A0 As a living document, it changes to reflect updates in brow= ser behavior.=C2=A0 As a result, its algorithms and syntax definitions may = or may not be consistent with this specification.=C2=A0 Implementors should= be aware of this possible discrepancy if they expect to share file URIs wi= th browsers that follow the WHATWG specification."

Given that the WHATWG specification also purports to c= over domains, IP addresses, and all other URL schemes, there are certainly = other conflicts possible, but this text covers the immediate ground.
Just my personal suggestion,

Ted



=
On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 9:47 AM, Alissa Cooper <= span dir=3D"ltr"><alissa@cooperw.in> wrote:
=
The IESG had a discussion on today= =E2=80=99s telechat about Stephen=E2=80=99s DISCUSS (below), which he has c= leared. During that discussion I volunteered to suggest a bit of additional= text to describe the existing reference to=C2=A0https://url.spec.whatwg.org/=C2= =A0in=C2=A0draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme because I think the current = text doesn=E2=80=99t quite capture the full extent of the referenced docume= nt nor the potential implications for implementors of this spec.
=
Here is my suggestion for Appendix C:
=E2=80=94=E2= =80=94=E2=80=94
OLD=C2=A0
The WHATWG defines a liv= ing URL standard [WHATWG-URL], which includes algorithms for interpreting f= ile URIs (as URLs).

NEW=C2=A0
The WHATWG= defines a living URL standard [WHATWG-URL], which includes algorithms for = interpreting file URIs (as URLs) and URL syntax definitions which may or ma= y not be consistent with this specification at any point in time.
=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94

Just a suggesti= on.

Alissa

On Dec 13, 2016, at 10:25 AM, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie&g= t; wrote:

Stephen Farrell has entered the following ballot position fordraft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-15: Discuss

When responding, p= lease keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses incl= uded in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragra= ph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/= iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information = about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along wi= th other ballot positions, can be found here:
https:= //datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme/


---------------------------------------------------------= -------------
DISCUSS:
------------------------------------= ----------------------------------


Appendix C: this spec an= d the whatwg web page may or may not
be in conflict. I think this may be= the first PS that we've
produced where that fact finally hits that = fan - is that
right? If not, then I'll clear as we'll already ha= ve decided
there's nothing to be done about odd behaviour with
&q= uot;competing" specifications for the same thing (that thing
being = RFC3986). If this is the first time we've gotten to
this point, then= I think the IESG ought explicitly decide
that we are going to live with= what we all know is a pretty
crap situation where different implementer= s (web vs. non-web
basically) supporting various kinds of URL/URI are li= able to
end up doing different and potentially non-interoperable
thin= gs. (There is no action required from the author. For the
IESG - we disc= ussed this a couple of years back, but there
have been some personnel ch= anges since and I forget if the
current set of ADs are or are not up to = speed with and ok
with this.)






_______________________________________________<= br> art mailing list
art@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art


--94eb2c05e5cc8e71280543b641e4-- From nobody Thu Dec 15 10:06:37 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D478129439; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 10:06:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.792 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.792 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=dcrocker.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BmxSUBWdD0Qi; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 10:06:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from simon.songbird.com (simon.songbird.com [72.52.113.5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 128B5129B92; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 10:06:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.168] (76-218-8-128.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.8.128]) (authenticated bits=0) by simon.songbird.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-4.1ubuntu1) with ESMTP id uBFI7WYC016584 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 15 Dec 2016 10:07:33 -0800 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=dcrocker.net; s=default; t=1481825253; bh=33Lwynkf5yJP/FC3E1ahOCn8PQexRiNaPV3Ysx4PcBU=; h=Subject:To:References:Cc:Reply-To:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=TxnWTaFy0kTqJo25yQqwg64ZvXEjKqUvSYyq/Gkr/KLBcodX4pF6JdIL1bC6cBOhd 8jhqZW6GTAmE2ZQuDmKa+HI1u3+xxWWzxL+Q8Q9EkNmYvIRO1nZm9mCEFQsI35rSQF wlJIiUQH8ZgQ2k0MIpqp+wp5wsdnr2GvX3+QnlYs= To: Ted Hardie , Alissa Cooper References: <148164272603.29334.6599219976221487711.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking Message-ID: Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 10:06:14 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: appsawg-chairs@ietf.org, Stephen Farrell , The IESG , draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme@ietf.org, art@ietf.org Subject: Re: [art] WHATWG URL spec citation in draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 18:06:36 -0000 On 12/15/2016 10:01 AM, Ted Hardie wrote: > "The WHATWG URL specification defines browser behavior for a variety of > inputs, including file URIs. As a living document, it changes to > reflect updates in browser behavior. As a result, its algorithms and > syntax definitions may or may not be consistent with this > specification. Implementors should be aware of this possible > discrepancy if they expect to share file URIs with browsers that follow > the WHATWG specification." That text looks excellent to me and I strongly urge using it. (At the level of a positive nit, I think it's good that it refrains from the word 'standard', both given the nature of the referenced group and the degree of distraction that word often produces...) d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Thu Dec 15 10:10:35 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59E61129B93; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 10:10:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gbiv.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o5E-XxmNqrCj; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 10:10:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from homiemail-a125.g.dreamhost.com (sub5.mail.dreamhost.com [208.113.200.129]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 31416129B92; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 10:10:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from homiemail-a125.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a125.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 957E160000E03; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 10:10:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=gbiv.com; h=content-type :mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=gbiv.com; bh=Mr1UawkZQPxu5RX9mK+DfT1Ssig=; b=WY4P9BdsI9x9C6RmtlBSVpDpeZZu mDXK+YaRacHbb2RmuxrCP7uXObKZ8oKqWBIVWkjoapjzom1BVSRc0PNVFIZEAkxj zT+VDeIBZwG8OjmoF3Yxa2vDs/BtEaTPjivXHi+L0nLkfhlGPkoKO/F5UAEqxSWO nqR0Kf9+QHKoGxA= Received: from [192.168.1.3] (ip68-228-71-159.oc.oc.cox.net [68.228.71.159]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: fielding@gbiv.com) by homiemail-a125.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 64AB760000E02; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 10:10:27 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: "Roy T. Fielding" In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 10:10:26 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3BF1D251-A1FC-42B7-B03E-6CF07987EA13@gbiv.com> References: <148164272603.29334.6599219976221487711.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: dcrocker@bbiw.net X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Cc: appsawg-chairs@ietf.org, Ted Hardie , art@ietf.org, Alissa Cooper , The IESG , draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme@ietf.org, Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [art] WHATWG URL spec citation in draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 18:10:29 -0000 > On Dec 15, 2016, at 10:06 AM, Dave Crocker wrote: >=20 > On 12/15/2016 10:01 AM, Ted Hardie wrote: >> "The WHATWG URL specification defines browser behavior for a variety = of >> inputs, including file URIs. As a living document, it changes to >> reflect updates in browser behavior. As a result, its algorithms and >> syntax definitions may or may not be consistent with this >> specification. Implementors should be aware of this possible >> discrepancy if they expect to share file URIs with browsers that = follow >> the WHATWG specification." >=20 >=20 > That text looks excellent to me and I strongly urge using it. >=20 > (At the level of a positive nit, I think it's good that it refrains = from the word 'standard', both given the nature of the referenced group = and the degree of distraction that word often produces...) +1 ....Roy From nobody Thu Dec 15 10:18:47 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AFC8129443; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 10:18:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-2.896, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=garr.it Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lw_6LRWroxL3; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 10:18:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from cyrus.dir.garr.it (cyrus.dir.garr.it [193.206.158.29]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1AFDA129E71; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 10:18:31 -0800 (PST) Received: internal info suppressed Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 19:18:08 +0100 (CET) From: Claudio Allocchio X-X-Sender: claudio@mac-allocchio3.garrtest.units.it To: "Roy T. Fielding" In-Reply-To: <3BF1D251-A1FC-42B7-B03E-6CF07987EA13@gbiv.com> Message-ID: References: <148164272603.29334.6599219976221487711.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <3BF1D251-A1FC-42B7-B03E-6CF07987EA13@gbiv.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (OSX 67 2015-01-07) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=garr.it; s=cyrus; t=1481825889; bh=hfD2XTqoZIpDOTu34TDq/Po8lafdd+Jcrohz/zKOPw4=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=tXsQYJw+A6NRb5WiCPEsAz2g9KtgE3zUHxVllLxgYNwbH3SjUOMYGgy1W/53QtuOC jRPUHwem//kSc+/2yVCDWcJnF92PSAOHYkNGv3tunoM8YgQboRgWiFazfMDRDHWEDD vvSn495i3f1KFfE9Noblm+82ovj6slqHDITixWbs= Archived-At: Cc: appsawg-chairs@ietf.org, Ted Hardie , art@ietf.org, Alissa Cooper , The IESG , draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme@ietf.org, Stephen Farrell , dcrocker@bbiw.net Subject: Re: [art] WHATWG URL spec citation in draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 18:18:36 -0000 another +1 On Thu, 15 Dec 2016, Roy T. Fielding wrote: >> On Dec 15, 2016, at 10:06 AM, Dave Crocker wrote: >> >> On 12/15/2016 10:01 AM, Ted Hardie wrote: >>> "The WHATWG URL specification defines browser behavior for a variety of >>> inputs, including file URIs. As a living document, it changes to >>> reflect updates in browser behavior. As a result, its algorithms and >>> syntax definitions may or may not be consistent with this >>> specification. Implementors should be aware of this possible >>> discrepancy if they expect to share file URIs with browsers that follow >>> the WHATWG specification." >> >> >> That text looks excellent to me and I strongly urge using it. >> >> (At the level of a positive nit, I think it's good that it refrains from the word 'standard', both given the nature of the referenced group and the degree of distraction that word often produces...) > > +1 > > ....Roy > > _______________________________________________ > art mailing list > art@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Claudio Allocchio G A R R Claudio.Allocchio@garr.it Senior Technical Officer tel: +39 040 3758523 Italian Academic and G=Claudio; S=Allocchio; fax: +39 040 3758565 Research Network P=garr; A=garr; C=it; http://www.cert.garr.it/pgp/garr-cert-pgp-keys From nobody Thu Dec 15 10:28:09 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53A9D12944C; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 10:28:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cooperw.in header.b=QgkXmdb8; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=A88YCuBI Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8LssXtvK010e; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 10:27:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A95612942F; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 10:27:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute7.internal (compute7.nyi.internal [10.202.2.47]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id D791920675; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 13:27:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from frontend2 ([10.202.2.161]) by compute7.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 15 Dec 2016 13:27:57 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cooperw.in; h=cc :content-type:date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:subject:to:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc :x-sasl-enc; s=mesmtp; bh=vq+wqDrKowJHnEt3Pexj2LiatU4=; b=QgkXmd b81/kgsalfjCH2kp22f6zGvVw+gb3CoB49Nv+k2roevU3bTPEkVqjQy5yuMm+Rjr m+0fjkLi/ebhucy+/IA+GNpiIbLvrE9De/niP8J6Ny4ogWih+NVYebB+jwmfAVpk nrkUPm90h9zSCSDoQQ4uCTejHfUfuzQIjg+zo= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc:x-sasl-enc; s=smtpout; bh=vq+wqDrKowJHnE t3Pexj2LiatU4=; b=A88YCuBIGY1xSgRfBzi6S4w+wAaAMmOKZbTlGDgKhrs1/p 5eiCVR7GHBgRsOrsOMDVq267UN/4NVuK78SBjXSigPlHzeO7usCtPUU4QNGreJMQ VL4n6WvzFTsGJdE3EShTn2ObRtRGn7nzULTipg/J6C2soOvuQ7ORQO6bSJ+V4= X-ME-Sender: X-Sasl-enc: yo1qRL0lBSA9RJv4/2I/+6iADsPA9Ucqum5F1R/fs7CI 1481826477 Received: from sjc-alcoop-8819.cisco.com (unknown [128.107.241.169]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 5A51B246FD; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 13:27:56 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_2987AAC0-711C-4903-9EE3-FC52C88A20A1" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) From: Alissa Cooper In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 13:27:54 -0500 Message-Id: <894EDE55-A9A4-49C7-B6BD-56B0D801D20A@cooperw.in> References: <148164272603.29334.6599219976221487711.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: Ted Hardie X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Cc: appsawg-chairs@ietf.org, art@ietf.org, Dave Crocker , draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme@ietf.org, The IESG , Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [art] WHATWG URL spec citation in draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 18:28:00 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_2987AAC0-711C-4903-9EE3-FC52C88A20A1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Dec 15, 2016, at 1:01 PM, Ted Hardie wrote: >=20 > Howdy, >=20 >=20 > If you are truly trying to capture this, I would say something like: >=20 > "The WHATWG URL specification defines browser behavior for a variety = of inputs, including file URIs. As a living document, it changes to = reflect updates in browser behavior. As a result, its algorithms and = syntax definitions may or may not be consistent with this specification. = Implementors should be aware of this possible discrepancy if they = expect to share file URIs with browsers that follow the WHATWG = specification.=E2=80=9D I like it. Alissa >=20 > Given that the WHATWG specification also purports to cover domains, IP = addresses, and all other URL schemes, there are certainly other = conflicts possible, but this text covers the immediate ground. >=20 > Just my personal suggestion, >=20 > Ted >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 9:47 AM, Alissa Cooper > wrote: > The IESG had a discussion on today=E2=80=99s telechat about = Stephen=E2=80=99s DISCUSS (below), which he has cleared. During that = discussion I volunteered to suggest a bit of additional text to describe = the existing reference to https://url.spec.whatwg.org/ = in draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme because = I think the current text doesn=E2=80=99t quite capture the full extent = of the referenced document nor the potential implications for = implementors of this spec. >=20 > Here is my suggestion for Appendix C: > =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 > OLD=20 > The WHATWG defines a living URL standard [WHATWG-URL], which includes = algorithms for interpreting file URIs (as URLs). >=20 > NEW=20 > The WHATWG defines a living URL standard [WHATWG-URL], which includes = algorithms for interpreting file URIs (as URLs) and URL syntax = definitions which may or may not be consistent with this specification = at any point in time. > =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 >=20 > Just a suggestion. >=20 > Alissa >=20 >> On Dec 13, 2016, at 10:25 AM, Stephen Farrell = > wrote: >>=20 >> Stephen Farrell has entered the following ballot position for >> draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-15: Discuss >>=20 >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut = this >> introductory paragraph, however.) >>=20 >>=20 >> Please refer to = https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html = >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >>=20 >>=20 >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme/ = >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> DISCUSS: >> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>=20 >>=20 >> Appendix C: this spec and the whatwg web page may or may not >> be in conflict. I think this may be the first PS that we've >> produced where that fact finally hits that fan - is that >> right? If not, then I'll clear as we'll already have decided >> there's nothing to be done about odd behaviour with >> "competing" specifications for the same thing (that thing >> being RFC3986). If this is the first time we've gotten to >> this point, then I think the IESG ought explicitly decide >> that we are going to live with what we all know is a pretty >> crap situation where different implementers (web vs. non-web >> basically) supporting various kinds of URL/URI are liable to >> end up doing different and potentially non-interoperable >> things. (There is no action required from the author. For the >> IESG - we discussed this a couple of years back, but there >> have been some personnel changes since and I forget if the >> current set of ADs are or are not up to speed with and ok >> with this.) >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > art mailing list > art@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art = >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_2987AAC0-711C-4903-9EE3-FC52C88A20A1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On Dec 15, 2016, at 1:01 PM, Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com> = wrote:

Howdy,

If you are = truly trying to capture this, I would say something like:

"The WHATWG = URL specification defines browser behavior for a variety of inputs, = including file URIs.  As a living document, it changes to reflect = updates in browser behavior.  As a result, its algorithms and = syntax definitions may or may not be consistent with this = specification.  Implementors should be aware of this possible = discrepancy if they expect to share file URIs with browsers that follow = the WHATWG specification.=E2=80=9D

I like it.
Alissa


Given that the WHATWG = specification also purports to cover domains, IP addresses, and all = other URL schemes, there are certainly other conflicts possible, but = this text covers the immediate ground.

Just my personal = suggestion,

Ted




On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at = 9:47 AM, Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in> wrote:
The IESG had a = discussion on today=E2=80=99s telechat about Stephen=E2=80=99s DISCUSS = (below), which he has cleared. During that discussion I volunteered to = suggest a bit of additional text to describe the existing reference = to https://url.spec.whatwg.org/ in draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme because I think the current text doesn=E2=80=99t = quite capture the full extent of the referenced document nor the = potential implications for implementors of this spec.

Here is my suggestion = for Appendix C:
=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94
OLD 
The WHATWG = defines a living URL standard [WHATWG-URL], which includes algorithms = for interpreting file URIs (as URLs).

NEW 
The = WHATWG defines a living URL standard [WHATWG-URL], which includes = algorithms for interpreting file URIs (as URLs) and URL syntax = definitions which may or may not be consistent with this specification = at any point in time.
=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=

Just a = suggestion.

Alissa

On Dec 13, 2016, at 10:25 AM, = Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> = wrote:

Stephen Farrell has entered the following = ballot position for
draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-15: Discuss

When = responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free = to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT = positions.


The document, = along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------


Appendix C: this spec and the = whatwg web page may or may not
be in conflict. I think = this may be the first PS that we've
produced where that = fact finally hits that fan - is that
right? If not, then = I'll clear as we'll already have decided
there's nothing = to be done about odd behaviour with
"competing" = specifications for the same thing (that thing
being = RFC3986). If this is the first time we've gotten to
this = point, then I think the IESG ought explicitly decide
that = we are going to live with what we all know is a pretty
crap = situation where different implementers (web vs. non-web
basically) supporting various kinds of URL/URI are liable = to
end up doing different and potentially = non-interoperable
things. (There is no action required = from the author. For the
IESG - we discussed this a couple = of years back, but there
have been some personnel changes = since and I forget if the
current set of ADs are or are = not up to speed with and ok
with this.)






_______________________________________________
art mailing list
art@ietf.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art



= --Apple-Mail=_2987AAC0-711C-4903-9EE3-FC52C88A20A1-- From nobody Thu Dec 15 11:18:58 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A19901296C0; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 11:18:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.796 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.796 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-2.896] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TE75dKSy9VgG; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 11:18:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B713C129699; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 11:18:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.39] (cpe-66-25-7-22.tx.res.rr.com [66.25.7.22]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id uBFJIgCx098833 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 15 Dec 2016 13:18:43 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-66-25-7-22.tx.res.rr.com [66.25.7.22] claimed to be [10.0.1.39] From: "Ben Campbell" To: "Alissa Cooper" Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 13:18:42 -0600 Message-ID: <2F2F1FEC-6DC1-467C-A827-E23B63ED5906@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <894EDE55-A9A4-49C7-B6BD-56B0D801D20A@cooperw.in> References: <148164272603.29334.6599219976221487711.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <894EDE55-A9A4-49C7-B6BD-56B0D801D20A@cooperw.in> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.6r5310) Archived-At: Cc: appsawg-chairs@ietf.org, Ted Hardie , art@ietf.org, The IESG , draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme@ietf.org, Stephen Farrell , Dave Crocker Subject: Re: [art] WHATWG URL spec citation in draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 19:18:54 -0000 On 15 Dec 2016, at 12:27, Alissa Cooper wrote: > If you are truly trying to capture this, I would say something like: >> >> "The WHATWG URL specification defines browser behavior for a variety >> of inputs, including file URIs. As a living document, it changes to >> reflect updates in browser behavior. As a result, its algorithms and >> syntax definitions may or may not be consistent with this >> specification. Implementors should be aware of this possible >> discrepancy if they expect to share file URIs with browsers that >> follow the WHATWG specification.” > > > I like it. Count me as another +1. Ben. From nobody Thu Dec 15 13:42:59 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A31BE12948D; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 13:42:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E69mQYPhjhn1; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 13:42:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt0-x243.google.com (mail-qt0-x243.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::243]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5B6F112948B; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 13:42:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt0-x243.google.com with SMTP id l20so8598497qta.1; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 13:42:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=4tHTq9QNf6tqiq9OV/7uKE+EBYR7tZeL4SqdUNjTLCo=; b=rL7XYaeg9BQI/t0NvAlvpiAQIl6seFwcfVe+in/FmZ2jbvJezLxGODmJJdCqOUxxiT flBugIiJ2QaCBicDnQegdM305rxKimtvxTrjjN3BFiqUHxlHJrTvriFF7YXTtmZ+7hDW +eDN9S1V8ueQuWyrq5CLKWrRoIkWOF63xjsVkbqHrLA5rVHf11NLQjOfTw6xWWsTJiqR IC5IYPEXBCpGdJZQc6rel5B4CfaAyw80a6orlyZyQZWMHMifHqVi62rsJfwB67j9IUIc BLPobcGiFiTza2+1D5aajaTSUU11Vs1A+8i7m6UE+qwO8mC51j06c0E8PQvCz8FRTNdN jYwA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4tHTq9QNf6tqiq9OV/7uKE+EBYR7tZeL4SqdUNjTLCo=; b=gchw/y3HkdBvpBxEUkSpdxZ0T4/1bux0tsVZ990oB9yVxvqMud4sUalZ6mIRN/Wc8e WvaAUZCmYm2gtm2rBwQpJBVFNBaOFYzFoyNMmdwgK1KJn+Gpfuq4oy1Jx6DEW5HowK5I klohT5dkjgIgoZX33hrOhb7wIaLbCM3zhUXAGO3aGTMVRiwPORLH1Vk552/6PwULjghX hM4zxpsBmUANc4FA28a9ZvIIcYdIUxPxX5hUAva41Ne7ItxcRSRcwlJ8GV+T4Rpz8TWD B/nQk2617IoplcspYkHkV3Gj45qB4+BSF0Dr6vryGwR5mKyfAqV7l3D9Mr7ILuqtApbW bRmA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXI//yi3ZZKdGcpWsmcj3LJRxKEPQ/lem48bQQTEekasaF+7JM6XIjXLsrErsgEla3PuPNaEC3ITqn28NA== X-Received: by 10.237.35.114 with SMTP id i47mr2569992qtc.239.1481838170137; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 13:42:50 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.55.8.14 with HTTP; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 13:42:19 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <148164272603.29334.6599219976221487711.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Delfi Ramirez Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 22:42:19 +0100 Message-ID: To: art@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113e3280beed090543b955f7 Archived-At: Cc: appsawg-chairs@ietf.org, The IESG , draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme@ietf.org Subject: Re: [art] WHATWG URL spec citation in draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 21:42:53 -0000 --001a113e3280beed090543b955f7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 "The WHATWG URL specification defines browser behavior for a variety of inputs, including file URIs. As a living document, it changes to reflect updates in browser behavior. As a result, its algorithms and syntax definitions may or may not be consistent with this specification. Implementors should be aware of this possible discrepancy if they expect to share file URIs with browsers that follow the WHATWG specification." count me in +1 Delfi Ramirez i Ruiz http://delfiramirez.info http://segonquart.net http://delfiramirez.blogspot.com skype: segonquart linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/delfiramirez 08005 Barcelona. Spain __________________________________________ On 15 December 2016 at 19:06, Dave Crocker wrote: > On 12/15/2016 10:01 AM, Ted Hardie wrote: > >> "The WHATWG URL specification defines browser behavior for a variety of >> inputs, including file URIs. As a living document, it changes to >> reflect updates in browser behavior. As a result, its algorithms and >> syntax definitions may or may not be consistent with this >> specification. Implementors should be aware of this possible >> discrepancy if they expect to share file URIs with browsers that follow >> the WHATWG specification." >> > > > That text looks excellent to me and I strongly urge using it. > > (At the level of a positive nit, I think it's good that it refrains from > the word 'standard', both given the nature of the referenced group and the > degree of distraction that word often produces...) > > d/ > > -- > > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net > > _______________________________________________ > art mailing list > art@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art > --001a113e3280beed090543b955f7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
"The WHATWG URL spec= ification defines browser behavior for a variety of
inputs, including file URIs.= =C2=A0 As a living document, it changes to
reflect updates in browser behavior.= =C2=A0 As a result, its algorithms and
syntax definitions may or may not be cons= istent with this
specification.=C2=A0 Implementors should be aware of this possi= ble
d= iscrepancy if they expect to share file URIs with browsers that follow
the WHATWG specification."

count me in +1
Delfi Ramirez i Ruizhttp://delfiramirez= .info
skype: segonqu= art
=
08005 Barcelona. Spain
__________________________________________

On 15 December 2016 at 19:06, Dave Crocker <= span dir=3D"ltr"><= dhc@dcrocker.net> wrote:
On= 12/15/2016 10:01 AM, Ted Hardie wrote:
"The WHATWG URL specification defines browser behavior for a variety o= f
inputs, including file URIs.=C2=A0 As a living document, it changes to
reflect updates in browser behavior.=C2=A0 As a result, its algorithms and<= br> syntax definitions may or may not be consistent with this
specification.=C2=A0 Implementors should be aware of this possible
discrepancy if they expect to share file URIs with browsers that follow
the WHATWG specification."


That text looks excellent to me and I strongly urge using it.

(At the level of a positive nit, I think it's good that it refrains fro= m the word 'standard', both given the nature of the referenced grou= p and the degree of distraction that word often produces...)

d/

--

=C2=A0 Dave Crocker
=C2=A0 Brandenburg InternetWorking
=C2=A0 bbi= w.net

_______________________________________________
art mailing list
art@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art

--001a113e3280beed090543b955f7-- From nobody Thu Dec 15 15:03:38 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AB6412994F; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 15:03:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.796 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.796 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-2.896] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eq9c7Magc-lQ; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 15:03:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A2441299C8; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 15:03:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.39] (cpe-66-25-7-22.tx.res.rr.com [66.25.7.22]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id uBFN2wqV018924 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 15 Dec 2016 17:03:00 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-66-25-7-22.tx.res.rr.com [66.25.7.22] claimed to be [10.0.1.39] From: "Ben Campbell" To: "Matthew Kerwin" Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 17:02:58 -0600 Message-ID: <72030290-F923-45EA-B88F-A29E2FB59978@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: References: <148174978359.16872.6615576098350625978.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.6r5310) Archived-At: Cc: "appsawg-chairs@ietf.org" , "art@ietf.org" , The IESG , "draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme@ietf.org" , "dcrocker@bbiw.net" Subject: Re: [art] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-15: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 23:03:36 -0000 Hi Matthew, On 15 Dec 2016, at 0:09, Matthew Kerwin wrote: > Hi Ben, > > From: Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com] > Sent: Thursday, 15 December 2016 07:10 >> >> - Section 5: "Implementers MUST research" and "Care MUST be taken" >> both seem like requirements on people, not on implementations. >> Furthermore, "research" and "taking of care" are vague in terms of >> expected results. >> Can these be recast into concrete expectations of implementation >> behavior? > > I understand what you're asking, and why, but I don't know if it's > within my wordsmithing capabilities. If I changed the RFC2119 > normative keywords to regular English words I think that would make > the problem go away; would the resulting text be enough for security > considerations? > > The "MUST research" paragraph comes almost verbatim from RFC3986, > Section 7.5, but that says "should" instead of "MUST" -- I'd be happy > to move back in that direction here. I think using normal English words (as in not 2119 keywords.) makes sense here. You can say important things without 2119 keywords. An alternative would be to state it in terms of implementation behavior. For example: "Implementations MUST restrict the use of data obtained from URI components according to the reserved names and characters of the attached storage device" But given that I think the point is that "implementors need to think about these issues and do the right thing", dropping the 2119 keywords is probably the best approach. Thanks! Ben. From nobody Thu Dec 15 15:28:16 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AECBD12940F; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 15:28:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.922 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.922 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1DoK3yVywVZq; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 15:28:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM02-SN1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-sn1nam02on0076.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.36.76]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7CD3B12978C; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 15:27:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from MWHPR01MB2670.prod.exchangelabs.com (10.172.165.8) by MWHPR01MB2672.prod.exchangelabs.com (10.172.165.10) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.771.8; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 23:27:05 +0000 Received: from MWHPR01MB2670.prod.exchangelabs.com ([10.172.165.8]) by MWHPR01MB2670.prod.exchangelabs.com ([10.172.165.8]) with mapi id 15.01.0771.014; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 23:27:05 +0000 From: Matthew Kerwin To: Ben Campbell Thread-Topic: Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-15: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHSVk5nlQztRpOFjEWvmWJSnq5yU6EIfiCAgAEkBACAAAVlAA== Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 23:27:05 +0000 Message-ID: References: <148174978359.16872.6615576098350625978.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <72030290-F923-45EA-B88F-A29E2FB59978@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <72030290-F923-45EA-B88F-A29E2FB59978@nostrum.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=matthew.kerwin@qut.edu.au; 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protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=SHA1; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0179_01D2577E.8FFC5420" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: qut.edu.au X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 15 Dec 2016 23:27:05.8861 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: dc0b52a3-68c5-44f7-881d-9383d8850b96 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MWHPR01MB2672 Archived-At: Cc: "appsawg-chairs@ietf.org" , "art@ietf.org" , The IESG , "draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme@ietf.org" , "dcrocker@bbiw.net" Subject: Re: [art] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-15: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 23:28:14 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_0179_01D2577E.8FFC5420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]=20 Sent: Friday, 16 December 2016 09:03 > > Hi Matthew, > [snip] > > But given that I think the point is that "implementors need to think > about these issues and do the right thing", dropping the 2119 > keywords is probably the best approach. > > Thanks! > > Ben. Excellent, I've made those changes in my copy, and they'll be included = in -16. 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art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 760EA1298C2; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 15:34:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.921 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.921 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eJqShDrU0zrP; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 15:34:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM02-BL2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2nam02on0076.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.38.76]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2956E12987D; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 15:34:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from MWHPR01MB2670.prod.exchangelabs.com (10.172.165.8) by MWHPR01MB2670.prod.exchangelabs.com (10.172.165.8) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.771.8; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 23:34:24 +0000 Received: from MWHPR01MB2670.prod.exchangelabs.com ([10.172.165.8]) by MWHPR01MB2670.prod.exchangelabs.com ([10.172.165.8]) with mapi id 15.01.0771.014; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 23:34:23 +0000 From: Matthew Kerwin To: Ted Hardie , Alissa Cooper Thread-Topic: [art] WHATWG URL spec citation in draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme Thread-Index: AQHSVvtXmeHTXTYmYUCH//3DxXvfrKEJTK4AgABa5oA= Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 23:34:23 +0000 Message-ID: References: <148164272603.29334.6599219976221487711.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=matthew.kerwin@qut.edu.au; x-originating-ip: 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FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: qut.edu.au does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=SHA1; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_017D_01D2577F.94AF3860" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: qut.edu.au X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 15 Dec 2016 23:34:23.7670 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: dc0b52a3-68c5-44f7-881d-9383d8850b96 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MWHPR01MB2670 Archived-At: Cc: "appsawg-chairs@ietf.org" , "art@ietf.org" , Dave Crocker , "draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme@ietf.org" , The IESG , Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [art] WHATWG URL spec citation in draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 23:34:30 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_017D_01D2577F.94AF3860 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_017E_01D2577F.94AF3860" ------=_NextPart_001_017E_01D2577F.94AF3860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Alissa and Ted, =20 This is a great paragraph, it will be included in -16. =20 Cheers --=20 Matthew Kerwin | QUT =20 From: Ted Hardie [mailto:ted.ietf@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Friday, 16 December 2016 04:02 To: Alissa Cooper Cc: draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme@ietf.org; appsawg-chairs@ietf.org; = art@ietf.org; Stephen Farrell; The IESG; Dave Crocker Subject: Re: [art] WHATWG URL spec citation in = draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme =20 Howdy, =20 If you are truly trying to capture this, I would say something like: "The WHATWG URL specification defines browser behavior for a variety of = inputs, including file URIs. As a living document, it changes to = reflect updates in browser behavior. As a result, its algorithms and = syntax definitions may or may not be consistent with this specification. = Implementors should be aware of this possible discrepancy if they = expect to share file URIs with browsers that follow the WHATWG = specification." Given that the WHATWG specification also purports to cover domains, IP = addresses, and all other URL schemes, there are certainly other = conflicts possible, but this text covers the immediate ground. Just my personal suggestion, Ted =20 =20 On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 9:47 AM, Alissa Cooper = wrote: The IESG had a discussion on today=E2=80=99s telechat about = Stephen=E2=80=99s DISCUSS (below), which he has cleared. During that = discussion I volunteered to suggest a bit of additional text to describe = the existing reference to https://url.spec.whatwg.org/ in = draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme because I think the current text = doesn=E2=80=99t quite capture the full extent of the referenced document = nor the potential implications for implementors of this spec. =20 Here is my suggestion for Appendix C: =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 OLD=20 The WHATWG defines a living URL standard [WHATWG-URL], which includes = algorithms for interpreting file URIs (as URLs). =20 NEW=20 The WHATWG defines a living URL standard [WHATWG-URL], which includes = algorithms for interpreting file URIs (as URLs) and URL syntax = definitions which may or may not be consistent with this specification = at any point in time. =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 =20 Just a suggestion. =20 Alissa =20 On Dec 13, 2016, at 10:25 AM, Stephen Farrell = wrote: =20 Stephen Farrell has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-15: Discuss When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to = https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCUSS: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Appendix C: this spec and the whatwg web page may or may not be in conflict. I think this may be the first PS that we've produced where that fact finally hits that fan - is that right? If not, then I'll clear as we'll already have decided there's nothing to be done about odd behaviour with "competing" specifications for the same thing (that thing being RFC3986). If this is the first time we've gotten to this point, then I think the IESG ought explicitly decide that we are going to live with what we all know is a pretty crap situation where different implementers (web vs. non-web basically) supporting various kinds of URL/URI are liable to end up doing different and potentially non-interoperable things. (There is no action required from the author. For the IESG - we discussed this a couple of years back, but there have been some personnel changes since and I forget if the current set of ADs are or are not up to speed with and ok with this.) =20 _______________________________________________ art mailing list art@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art =20 ------=_NextPart_001_017E_01D2577F.94AF3860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Th= anks Alissa and Ted,

 

Th= is is a great paragraph, it will be included in = -16.

 

Ch= eers

-- =

= Matthew Kerwin=  | QUT

 

From:= Ted Hardie = [mailto:ted.ietf@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, 16 December 2016 = 04:02
To: Alissa Cooper
Cc: = draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme@ietf.org; appsawg-chairs@ietf.org; = art@ietf.org; Stephen Farrell; The IESG; Dave Crocker
Subject: = Re: [art] WHATWG URL spec citation in = draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme

 

Howdy,

 

If you are truly trying = to capture this, I would say something like:

"The WHATWG URL = specification defines browser behavior for a variety of inputs, = including file URIs.  As a living document, it changes to reflect = updates in browser behavior.  As a result, its algorithms and = syntax definitions may or may not be consistent with this = specification.  Implementors should be aware of this possible = discrepancy if they expect to share file URIs with browsers that follow = the WHATWG specification."

Given that the WHATWG = specification also purports to cover domains, IP addresses, and all = other URL schemes, there are certainly other conflicts possible, but = this text covers the immediate ground.

Just my personal = suggestion,

Ted

 

 

On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 9:47 AM, Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in> = wrote:

The IESG had a = discussion on today=E2=80=99s telechat about Stephen=E2=80=99s DISCUSS = (below), which he has cleared. During that discussion I volunteered to = suggest a bit of additional text to describe the existing reference = to https://url.spec.whatwg.org/ in draft-iet= f-appsawg-file-scheme because I think the current text doesn=E2=80=99t = quite capture the full extent of the referenced document nor the = potential implications for implementors of this = spec.

 

Here is my suggestion for Appendix = C:

=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94

OLD 

The WHATWG defines a living URL standard [WHATWG-URL], = which includes algorithms for interpreting file URIs (as = URLs).

 

NEW 

The WHATWG defines a living URL standard [WHATWG-URL], = which includes algorithms for interpreting file URIs (as URLs) and URL = syntax definitions which may or may not be consistent with this = specification at any point in time.

=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94

 

Just a suggestion.

 

Alissa

 

On Dec 13, 2016, at 10:25 AM, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> = wrote:

 

Stephen Farrell has entered the following = ballot position for
draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-15: = Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and = reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel = free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please = refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.ht= ml
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT = positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, = can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-appsawg-fil= e-scheme/



--------------------------------------------= --------------------------
DISCUSS:
-------------------------------= ---------------------------------------


Appendix C: this spec = and the whatwg web page may or may not
be in conflict. I think this = may be the first PS that we've
produced where that fact finally hits = that fan - is that
right? If not, then I'll clear as we'll already = have decided
there's nothing to be done about odd behaviour = with
"competing" specifications for the same thing (that = thing
being RFC3986). If this is the first time we've gotten = to
this point, then I think the IESG ought explicitly decide
that = we are going to live with what we all know is a pretty
crap situation = where different implementers (web vs. non-web
basically) supporting = various kinds of URL/URI are liable to
end up doing different and = potentially non-interoperable
things. (There is no action required = from the author. For the
IESG - we discussed this a couple of years = back, but there
have been some personnel changes since and I forget = if the
current set of ADs are or are not up to speed with and = ok
with = this.)



 


______________________________________= _________
art mailing list
art@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art

 

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art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11189129BDD; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 16:35:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.40.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <148184850006.24617.3634446160821060196.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 16:35:00 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: art@ietf.org Subject: [art] I-D Action: draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-16.txt X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 00:35:00 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the ART Area General Applications Working Group of the IETF. Title : The file URI Scheme Author : Matthew Kerwin Filename : draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-16.txt Pages : 18 Date : 2016-12-15 Abstract: This document provides a more complete specification of the "file" Uniform Resource Identifier (URI) scheme, replacing the very brief definition in Section 3.10 of RFC 1738. It defines a common syntax which is intended to interoperate across the broad spectrum of existing usages. At the same time it notes some other current practices around the use of file URIs. Note to Readers (To be removed by the RFC Editor) This draft should be discussed on the IETF Applications Area Working Group discussion list . The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-16 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-16 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu Dec 15 17:04:36 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85A23129BF9; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 17:04:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-2.896, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jokMa05aNF00; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 17:04:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DADA3129BF5; Thu, 15 Dec 2016 17:04:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84396BE47; Fri, 16 Dec 2016 01:04:25 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ESsssdZQEu0w; Fri, 16 Dec 2016 01:04:24 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.87.48.210] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AE259BE49; Fri, 16 Dec 2016 01:04:23 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1481850264; bh=fh02zCnpOSZYlDP4KUl6C8M5VdYgEldte603YVAT8DY=; h=Subject:To:References:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=ApNdZ0kSkNcZug3FhzHg3uNw4UyBdTBKbiBMl/BM4njwqaSxVqUrmXn6PQErH2Dah 7TnRs6N49ZHWHz2MPF+1+AA7u+J6irTqwm5yaxmi2eDMeqffiUyQ7jL5q6+cPfv7n3 ptmesqpn4LyGYZHhXQ88yhExS5thMVCrQLvD+HNs= To: Matthew Kerwin , Ted Hardie , Alissa Cooper References: <148164272603.29334.6599219976221487711.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=D66EA7906F0B897FB2E97D582F3C8736805F8DA2; url= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 01:04:24 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="------------ms090405060409060107060605" Archived-At: Cc: The IESG , "appsawg-chairs@ietf.org" , Dave Crocker , "draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme@ietf.org" , "art@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [art] WHATWG URL spec citation in draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 01:04:31 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms090405060409060107060605 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 15/12/16 23:34, Matthew Kerwin wrote: > Thanks Alissa and Ted, >=20 > =20 >=20 > This is a great paragraph, it will be included in -16. Add me to the chorus. And thanks to all for thinking more about this, I think it's to everyone's benefit if we try as much as we can to handle forks in specs as well as we can with a view to damage limitation. If the community also wanted to e.g. help the IESG formulate a default view on handling other group's creation of parallel specifications that might also be a good thing. (Though maybe a bit abstract.) Probably better as a separate thread though if folks are interested in that. 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(authenticated bits=0) by simon.songbird.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-4.1ubuntu1) with ESMTP id uBGEU8tJ023967 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 16 Dec 2016 06:30:08 -0800 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=dcrocker.net; s=default; t=1481898608; bh=rDawIgTLNGefESsNcfKIc4HUCcgtaB3ni+55PoVE3HA=; h=Subject:References:Cc:From:Reply-To:To:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=Vn93MbLtJe6sva6tbLIX8zIEoA1ANuEmYqSUYG3bfu94HltmUzt3b74GULefRVPQZ aYVLzfAdvXUKjVy52fp/lBw1lXjvIUxRitVrPK2iBbAV8r5cU9npjdgoxI11J/s3pn /kdYqpKP2X323vPCUoCXWoyZdA8WtV1hvCwjaHb0= References: <148164272603.29334.6599219976221487711.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking To: "art@ietf.org" Message-ID: <7551de7c-598f-b1b3-eb73-5c8df87abc02@dcrocker.net> Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 06:28:48 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: The IESG Subject: [art] "competing" specifications (was: Re: WHATWG URL spec citation in draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme) X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 14:28:59 -0000 On 12/15/2016 5:04 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > If the community also wanted to e.g. help the IESG formulate > a default view on handling other group's creation of parallel > specifications that might also be a good thing. So, here's some grist for the mill... From time to time, the IETF must attend to the existence of parallel specifications by other organizations. That is, work in the IETF might overlap with work by some other group. The work might predate IETF efforts or might come after. In the latter case, the question becomes one of deciding how to handle a later IETF revision effort. Rather than have the IESG spontaneously decide how to deal with that, each time, it could be helpful to have the community consider this issue generally and formulate some basic views about IETF handling of such situations. NEW === For /all/ new IETF work, it is reasonable to have the chartering effort /always/ include a statement about related work that has been done elsewhere. This sort of due diligence happens periodically but is not a regular part of the chartering discussion. If there is existing, parallel work of note, there should then be some statement that justifies pursuing the new work in the IETF. EXISTING ======== When the IETF has an existing specification the predates the parallel, outside work, it is worth some investigation about the role that has developed for the original IETF work, versus the later, outside work. Ideally, this should be done when the IETF revision effort is first formulated, rather than at a later stage. It is possible that the outside work has come to dominate the industry's use, or that the original IETF work dominates, or that neither has a clear 'edge' in the market. In the first case, the onus should be on the IETF to justify further effort on a specification that has not (yet) succeeded, given that a parallel specification has. In the other cases, it seems best to pursue the IETF effort without significant regard for the outside work, except for a possible notation about its existence. ADDENDUM ======== Sometimes the right answer is to pursue actual competition. This invokes the classic "let the market decide" chorus. Although that sounds inefficient, it can be better than requiring prescient judgement by the IETF. Probably what matters most is the process of discussing these choices. It is worth noting that parallel specifications be wind up being complementary. One can feed into the other. Or they can fill different parts of the solution space. An unusual example, even /within/ the IETF, is MIME and ESMTP. Originally tasked as parallel, competing efforts to enhance email support for 'international' characters, they came to be complementary transport-and-payload roles. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Fri Dec 16 08:28:52 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02A02129866; Fri, 16 Dec 2016 08:28:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XXsgRAYSa1fA; Fri, 16 Dec 2016 08:28:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt0-x229.google.com (mail-qt0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BD2E01296CB; Fri, 16 Dec 2016 08:28:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt0-x229.google.com with SMTP id p16so89264769qta.0; Fri, 16 Dec 2016 08:28:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=1XYNMzXf7vCDzwZEkom9X4hd7cpIZOv/KI/Iv/uOUos=; b=oOSvlDsFQ/XovBQFD6H3pv50tU5ny0OvbtTGsLGK4myOnqiIEfFN+dA5o6wf8cid1C W+s+abg5w0hJQICmo+LDl00imszn/lorMEDkFSj0CBR6FEwVAq0s29flPvYTQ5IUqMlU 5OkIq+TQZcf1XgONwmWAt2/yeQvM/daggzI5aaRqE/XgTl0iRuu+rD24iig6ht+3tsMj uWbYFAv8tBym7uhYKau0H3nA2zgW8q1tc6WLdbOj7Udjvb6A4LxtAtDfUdjEMBz7uFfi HzLF8tlRjOc8OA2zi7Nc98a043seFqzGpYkOwI4QviyUomFzNEJjPbJnMS7n7vch/4J6 T/yg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=1XYNMzXf7vCDzwZEkom9X4hd7cpIZOv/KI/Iv/uOUos=; b=gxYhf6nPz7bZliSO0J97PrRgOswoo9esa/fj5AyzQSnjl/lw9HyI3KqA/nFmLXohVG CD8UUEQfRhsUHYmGZHlPpGXkCbx63BZLtrwA6+A9h1hDQEqXjq5ScDiXbfp8L6Dg053e G3QJHdhXg/qSwJbt5moLuI9sdpSHMSFleInTmxdFL0waGF0t9UsAZ+0s6CO0Ir6nZ1ke 6JaumpLau3D5GfPrfDEt75pcbOObYKLdtldT/ZaD4bjQ39rPj2c7elwZ5M3UNpz1hLIU uJbG3KhWjWz2aYAfrQAv9tnt0LjGbEnMdQebx/swJZCXFgBlwvYD5B2d1Fs/FxfrWAwS UWlw== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJN2rVp1cNkleSKGKDUuAT+UE635Na5SFEESPBP+3KZ88AdN+DRC5nU+Z27QzNPCmO4C/xvcF0F8hHSzA== X-Received: by 10.237.33.69 with SMTP id 63mr3324782qtc.182.1481905719681; Fri, 16 Dec 2016 08:28:39 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.55.97.194 with HTTP; Fri, 16 Dec 2016 08:28:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <7551de7c-598f-b1b3-eb73-5c8df87abc02@dcrocker.net> References: <148164272603.29334.6599219976221487711.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7551de7c-598f-b1b3-eb73-5c8df87abc02@dcrocker.net> From: Delfi Ramirez Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 17:28:09 +0100 Message-ID: To: dcrocker@bbiw.net Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c0c7fc8032d220543c910a6 Archived-At: Cc: "art@ietf.org" , The IESG Subject: Re: [art] "competing" specifications (was: Re: WHATWG URL spec citation in draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme) X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 16:28:47 -0000 --94eb2c0c7fc8032d220543c910a6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 agreed. no objection. Delfi Ramirez i Ruiz http://delfiramirez.info http://segonquart.net http://delfiramirez.blogspot.com skype: segonquart linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/delfiramirez 08005 Barcelona. Spain __________________________________________ On 16 December 2016 at 15:28, Dave Crocker wrote: > On 12/15/2016 5:04 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > >> If the community also wanted to e.g. help the IESG formulate >> a default view on handling other group's creation of parallel >> specifications that might also be a good thing. >> > > > So, here's some grist for the mill... > > > From time to time, the IETF must attend to the existence of parallel > specifications by other organizations. That is, work in the IETF might > overlap with work by some other group. The work might predate IETF efforts > or might come after. In the latter case, the question becomes one of > deciding how to handle a later IETF revision effort. > > Rather than have the IESG spontaneously decide how to deal with that, each > time, it could be helpful to have the community consider this issue > generally and formulate some basic views about IETF handling of such > situations. > > > NEW > === > > For /all/ new IETF work, it is reasonable to have the chartering effort > /always/ include a statement about related work that has been done > elsewhere. This sort of due diligence happens periodically but is not a > regular part of the chartering discussion. If there is existing, parallel > work of note, there should then be some statement that justifies pursuing > the new work in the IETF. > > > EXISTING > ======== > > When the IETF has an existing specification the predates the parallel, > outside work, it is worth some investigation about the role that has > developed for the original IETF work, versus the later, outside work. > Ideally, this should be done when the IETF revision effort is first > formulated, rather than at a later stage. > > It is possible that the outside work has come to dominate the industry's > use, or that the original IETF work dominates, or that neither has a clear > 'edge' in the market. > > In the first case, the onus should be on the IETF to justify further > effort on a specification that has not (yet) succeeded, given that a > parallel specification has. > > In the other cases, it seems best to pursue the IETF effort without > significant regard for the outside work, except for a possible notation > about its existence. > > > ADDENDUM > ======== > > Sometimes the right answer is to pursue actual competition. This invokes > the classic "let the market decide" chorus. Although that sounds > inefficient, it can be better than requiring prescient judgement by the > IETF. Probably what matters most is the process of discussing these > choices. > > It is worth noting that parallel specifications be wind up being > complementary. One can feed into the other. Or they can fill different > parts of the solution space. An unusual example, even /within/ the IETF, > is MIME and ESMTP. Originally tasked as parallel, competing efforts to > enhance email support for 'international' characters, they came to be > complementary transport-and-payload roles. > > > d/ > -- > > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net > > _______________________________________________ > art mailing list > art@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art > --94eb2c0c7fc8032d220543c910a6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
agreed. no objection.

Delfi Ramirez= i Ruiz
sky= pe: segonquart
08005 Barcelona. Spain
_________________________________= _________

On 16 December 2016 at 15:28, Dave Crocker <= span dir=3D"ltr"><= dhc@dcrocker.net> wrote:
On= 12/15/2016 5:04 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote:
If the community also wanted to e.g. help the IESG formulate
a default view on handling other group's creation of parallel
specifications that might also be a good thing.


So, here's some grist for the mill...


>From time to time, the IETF must attend to the existence of parallel specif= ications by other organizations.=C2=A0 That is, work in the IETF might over= lap with work by some other group.=C2=A0 The work might predate IETF effort= s or might come after.=C2=A0 In the latter case, the question becomes one o= f deciding how to handle a later IETF revision effort.

Rather than have the IESG spontaneously decide how to deal with that, each = time, it could be helpful to have the community consider this issue general= ly and formulate some basic views about IETF handling of such situations.

NEW
=3D=3D=3D

For /all/ new IETF work, it is reasonable to have the chartering effort /al= ways/ include a statement about related work that has been done elsewhere.= =C2=A0 This sort of due diligence happens periodically but is not a regular= part of the chartering discussion.=C2=A0 If there is existing, parallel wo= rk of note, there should then be some statement that justifies pursuing the= new work in the IETF.


EXISTING
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

When the IETF has an existing specification the predates the parallel, outs= ide work, it is worth some investigation about the role that has developed = for the original IETF work, versus the later, outside work. Ideally, this s= hould be done when the IETF revision effort is first formulated, rather tha= n at a later stage.

It is possible that the outside work has come to dominate the industry'= s use, or that the original IETF work dominates, or that neither has a clea= r 'edge' in the market.

In the first case, the onus should be on the IETF to justify further effort= on a specification that has not (yet) succeeded, given that a parallel spe= cification has.

In the other cases, it seems best to pursue the IETF effort without signifi= cant regard for the outside work, except for a possible notation about its = existence.


ADDENDUM
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Sometimes the right answer is to pursue actual competition.=C2=A0 This invo= kes the classic "let the market decide" chorus.=C2=A0 Although th= at sounds inefficient, it can be better than requiring prescient judgement = by the IETF.=C2=A0 Probably what matters most is the process of discussing = these choices.

It is worth noting that parallel specifications be wind up being complement= ary.=C2=A0 One can feed into the other.=C2=A0 Or they can fill different pa= rts of the solution space.=C2=A0 An unusual example, even /within/ the IETF= , is MIME and ESMTP.=C2=A0 Originally tasked as parallel, competing efforts= to enhance email support for 'international' characters, they came= to be complementary transport-and-payload roles.


d/
--

=C2=A0 Dave Crocker
=C2=A0 Brandenburg InternetWorking
=C2=A0 bbi= w.net

_______________________________________________
art mailing list
art@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art

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Stuart Mackie , "bess@ietf.com" , "apps-discuss@ietf.org" References: <9B279855-F523-4650-A1E3-2428AF30FA30@juniper.net> From: Matt Miller Message-ID: <823aa4f5-fc64-a8ae-ecc1-1bc95b50bec9@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 13:34:21 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9B279855-F523-4650-A1E3-2428AF30FA30@juniper.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="5o5I69faW5bnq6gFCX8F5mHw1kP00mSBU" Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 08:00:43 -0800 Subject: Re: [art] [bess] APPDIR Review of draft-ietf-l3vpn-end-system-05 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 20:34:27 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --5o5I69faW5bnq6gFCX8F5mHw1kP00mSBU Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="JFpCRoLvsqaGbsLnPaMehLnDe1q6R1H2o"; protected-headers="v1" From: Matt Miller To: Stuart Mackie , "bess@ietf.com" , "apps-discuss@ietf.org" Message-ID: <823aa4f5-fc64-a8ae-ecc1-1bc95b50bec9@cisco.com> Subject: Re: [bess] APPDIR Review of draft-ietf-l3vpn-end-system-05 References: <9B279855-F523-4650-A1E3-2428AF30FA30@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: <9B279855-F523-4650-A1E3-2428AF30FA30@juniper.net> --JFpCRoLvsqaGbsLnPaMehLnDe1q6R1H2o Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the update, Stuart. I'll take a read through and let you know= =2E - m&m Matt Miller Cisco Systems, Inc. On 2016-12-15 15:13, Stuart Mackie wrote: > Matt, >=20 > =20 >=20 > As you have probably realized from the lack of activity on this draft, > Pedro Marques has moved on and is no longer active in this area. I have= > been asked to take ownership and move the draft through the IETF proces= s. >=20 > =20 >=20 > I just posted a new version of the draft which addresses the concerns > raised in your email. >=20 > =20 >=20 > I have made quite a few changes for clarity in the draft, so I have > described the changes that specifically address your issues in this not= e. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Please let me know if you have any further concerns. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Thanks >=20 > =20 >=20 > Stuart >=20 > --------------------------------------- >=20 > =20 >=20 > I have been selected as the Applications in ART Directorate reviewer fo= r >=20 > this draft (for background on appsdir, please see >=20 > =E2=80=8B > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/app/trac/wiki/ApplicationsAreaDirectora= te ). >=20 > =20 >=20 > Please resolve these comments along with any other Last Call comments >=20 > you may receive. Please wait for direction from your document shepherd >=20 > or AD before posting a new version of the draft. >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > Document: draft-ietf-l3vpn-end-system-05 >=20 > Title: BGP-signaled end-system IP/VPNs >=20 > Reviewer: Matt Miller >=20 > Review Date: 2016-01-18 >=20 > IETF Last Call Date: N/A >=20 > IESG Telechat Date: N/A >=20 > =20 >=20 > Summary: This draft is not ready for publication as a Proposed >=20 > Standard. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Comments: >=20 > =20 >=20 > This draft is making assumptions and design decisions that are not real= ly >=20 > compatible with XMPP, and these should be resolved before publishing. >=20 > =20 >=20 > It's important to note XMPP is an end-to-end application routing >=20 > protocol. Clients are capable of sending data to other clients, >=20 > possibly crossing multiple server boundaries. For example: >=20 > =20 >=20 > 1) client-a@server-1.example --> >=20 > 2) server-1.example --> >=20 > 3) muc.example --> >=20 > 4) server-2.example --> >=20 > 5) client-b@server-2.example >=20 > =20 >=20 > This document seems to make the assumption that routing is purely >=20 > between a client and its sever, which I believe has lead to design >=20 > decisions that are very problematic. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Major Issues: (All of which apply to Section 6. XMPP Signaling >=20 > Protocol) >=20 > =20 >=20 > * The addressing scheme for End Systems connecting to the external VPN >=20 > Forwarder is not explicitly documented anywhere -- the only instance I >=20 > can deduce is from the external VPN forwarded subscription example, >=20 > which seems to use a domain JID for the End System. Without a clear >=20 > XMPP addressing scheme, properly routing stanzas across the XMPP >=20 > network and mutually authenticating TLS according to RFC 6125 (and >=20 > possibly [XEP-0178]) seem problematic to me. >=20 > =20 >=20 > /SM> Modified as follows:/ >=20 > /The VPN Forwarder SHOULD use its hostname as JID, when available, or a= > unique IP address within the infrastructure network using its string > representation. The same naming convention SHOULD be used for an End > System which has an XMPP session with an external VPN Forwarder./ >=20 > =20 >=20 > If End Systems are expected to communicate directly with the Route >=20 > Server (e.g., End System addresses stanzas to the Route Server, which >=20 > the VPN Forwarder is expected to relay), the addressing scheme for all >=20 > components needs to be better defined. For instance, the VPN Forwarder= >=20 > address in XMPP could be a domain JID as it is, while the End System >=20 > address could be a bare JID derived from that VPN Forwarder's JID >=20 > (e.g., "end-system@forwarder.example"). This would disambiguate the >=20 > XMPP routing across the XMPP network. >=20 > =20 >=20 > /SM> It is not, in fact, intended that End Systems communicate with the= > Route Server directly. There were some typos that indicated to the > contrary. Figure 1 in the -05 draft was misleading since it indicated > that End Systems have an XMPP session with Route Servers. The diagram > has been updated as follows/ >=20 > =20 >=20 > +---------+ +--------+ >=20 > | RS |--------| BGP | >=20 > +---------+ +--------+ >=20 > / \ / >=20 > XMPP \ / >=20 > / \ / >=20 > +--------------------+ \ / >=20 > | End | VPN | \/ >=20 > | System | Forwarder | /\ >=20 > +--------------------+ / \ >=20 > \ / \ >=20 > XMPP / \ >=20 > \ / \ >=20 > +---------+ +--------+ >=20 > | RS |--------| BGP | >=20 > +---------+ +--------+ >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > However, if VPN Forwarders are to act as proxies for End Systems, then >=20 > it should act as a proxy in all cases -- End Systems subscribe to >=20 > pubsub nodes on the external VPN Forwarder (which could in turn trigger= >=20 > a subscribe of the VPN forwarder to the Route Server), and receive >=20 > notifications from the VPN Forwarder (which in turn are first received >=20 > by the VPN Forwarder from the Route Server). >=20 > =20 >=20 > /SM> The text now reads:/ >=20 > / When an external Forwarder is used, its control software MAY operat= e/ >=20 > / as an XMPP server which processes requests from end-systems and SHA= LL/ >=20 > / operate as a client of one or more End-System Route Servers. The/ >=20 > / control software relays to the End-System Route Server(s) VPN/ >=20 > / membership stanzas it receives from the end-system. VPN routing/ >=20 > / information received from the Route Server(s) SHOULD NOT be/ >=20 > / propagated to the end-system unless it specifically requests such/ >=20 > / information. End systems MAY have sessions directly with the End-/= >=20 > / System Route Servers, and in this case no XMPP sessions are require= d/ >=20 > / with VPN Forwarders./ >=20 > =20 >=20 > * Using a hard-coded JID for the Route Server can be a serious problem = if >=20 > there is ever a case where individual Route Servers oversee different >=20 > routing information. If this is never the case, then a single JID for >=20 > all Route Servers is probably OK, but I think there could be problems >=20 > with properly authenticating the TLS session. Using a different JID >=20 > for each Route Server can introduce some difficulties for End Systems >=20 > utilizing external VPN Forwarders, but I think only in the case where >=20 > the End System is expected to subscribe to the Route Server directly --= >=20 > if the End System actually subscribes to the VPN Forwarder, then the >=20 > End System already knows the VPN Forwarder's JID and would not need to >=20 > determine the Route Server' JID. >=20 > =20 >=20 > /SM> It is assumed that Route Servers contain identical routing > information, / >=20 > /or that Routing Servers contain just the routing information required > for the / >=20 > /VPN Forwarders that connect to them. In this second case, a Routing > Server / >=20 > /can subscribe for routing information managed in a higher-order > management / >=20 > /system that manages all the routing information for a domain of VPN / >=20 > /Forwarders. The protocol between Route Servers and such a higher-level= / >=20 > /management could be XMPP or another convenient protocol that supports = a / >=20 > /publish and subscribe capability./ >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > Minor Issues: (all apply to Section 6. XMPP Signaling Protocol) >=20 > =20 >=20 > * The XEP-0060 PubSub subscription and unsubscription examples are >=20 > incorrect. Specifically, the 'jid' attribute of the >=20 > element is the subscriber's JID not the pubsub service, and >=20 > subscription options are encoded using Data Forms [XEP-0004]. >=20 > =20 >=20 > The co-located example then is: >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 > from=3D'forwarder.example' >=20 > to=3D'route-server' >=20 > id=3D'sub1'> >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > 1 >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > =20 >=20 > /SM> This has been corrected/ >=20 > =20 >=20 > The external example could be the following (if there is a single >=20 > addressing scheme): >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 > from=3D'end-system@forwarder.example' >=20 > to=3D'route-server' >=20 > id=3D'sub1'> >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > 100 >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > The unsubscribe example is then: >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 > from=3D'forwarder.example' >=20 > to=3D'route-server' >=20 > id=3D'unsub1'> >=20 > >=20 > =20 > jid=3D'forwarder.example' /> >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > =20 >=20 > /SM> In the external case, the VPN Forwarder has the session with the > Route Server, not / >=20 > /the End-System, and the text has been changed to reflect this. / >=20 > / / >=20 > =20 >=20 > * Requiring pubsub notifications to always go from the Route Server to >=20 > the VPN Forwarder regardless of what entity subscribed to the pubsub >=20 > node is counter to how XEP-0060 works. The pubsub subscribe request >=20 > specifies where the notifications are supposed to go, and the pubsub >=20 > service is expected to honor that. See above in the addressing >=20 > discussion for some ideas of how to deal with this. >=20 > =20 >=20 > /SM> Within the context of this document, only VPN Forwarders are > subscribing / >=20 > /to Route Servers./ >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > Nits: >=20 > =20 >=20 > * (Mostly in Section 6. XMPP Signaling Protocol) The document often >=20 > uses the term "message" when discussing XMPP communications. The XMPP >=20 > term of art is "stanza" not "message"; "message" has a specific >=20 > meaning in XMPP that is not in use here, and can lead to confusion >=20 > for readers of this document once they follow the references to >=20 > RFC 6120 and the various XEPs. >=20 > /SM> Changed =E2=80=9Cmessage=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Cstanza=E2=80=9D, exc= ept in the section that deals with / >=20 > /notifications/ >=20 > =20 >=20 > * In Section 1. Introduction, the use of the term XMPP should be >=20 > followed by a reference to RFC 6120. >=20 > =20 >=20 > /SM> Change made/ >=20 > =20 >=20 > * In Section 6. XMPP Signaling Protocol, the seventh paragraph >=20 > (immediately preceding Figure 1) has an extraneous period (.) at the >=20 > end of the last sentence. >=20 > =20 >=20 > SM> Fixed >=20 > =20 >=20 > * In Section 6. XMPP Signaling Protocol, I understood the meaning of >=20 > the following sentence: >=20 > =20 >=20 > The VPN Forwarder SHOULD use as JID its hostname, when available, >=20 > or an unique IP address within the infrastructure network win its >=20 > string representation. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Regardless of how my XMPP addressing concerns are finally resolved, >=20 > please revisit this sentence. >=20 > =20 >=20 > /SM> Changed to:/ >=20 > /The VPN Forwarder SHOULD use as JID its hostname, when available, or a= > unique / >=20 > /IP address within the infrastructure network using it string > representation./ >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > References: >=20 > =20 >=20 > [XEP-0004]: Data Forms < http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0004.html > >=20 > [XEP-0030]: Service Discovery < http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0030.htm= l > >=20 > [XEP-0178]: Best Practices for Use of SASL EXTERNAL with Certificates <= > http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0178.html > >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > -- >=20 > - m&m >=20 > =20 >=20 > Matt Miller >=20 > Cisco Systems, Inc. >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > *=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6= =E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6..* >=20 > =20 >=20 > *Stuart Mackie* >=20 > /SDN/NFV Architect/ >=20 > / / >=20 > +1 914 886 2534 >=20 > =20 >=20 > cid:image001.png@01D23914.C41AB720 >=20 --JFpCRoLvsqaGbsLnPaMehLnDe1q6R1H2o-- --5o5I69faW5bnq6gFCX8F5mHw1kP00mSBU Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJYVE/OAAoJEDWi+S0W7cO1QkYH/2Lthnkf8sVl2ZBQCwyNHipf ZUsTAFihpd+kvRF3xSk0emY3j03JF6N/eRsHTl9i938J91epqt+iar9GO+xbMekH LAPwM6ML2W2FhgJ1sc/RIDWbVlyTcZm5hKLYHxvo4juvtbfAt7G6GaQgnenqTdtA hfOWv1gJoRXSjqeLs9XAr6CDl85FuPTA6YdiHi/TNUfSejPHWW4Oi30Z020gwGP/ DhZJbUTOIBbMdYlImMTRI9a09qAncLPQzmbF/JTn0s4BpYhyR+XRwluCSh8VvDxs 4Wep0KOknqEKOJ6nmsLPOiaQA7HJ/g0grDUtYbpF+Ebk7SuRVJsfaEgcaNyB3fk= =8b7j -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --5o5I69faW5bnq6gFCX8F5mHw1kP00mSBU-- From nobody Mon Dec 19 08:46:50 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietf.org Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B89FE129BBA; Mon, 19 Dec 2016 08:46:46 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.40.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <148216600675.12826.9137293959589850986.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 08:46:46 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: appsawg-chairs@ietf.org, art@ietf.org, The IESG , draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme@ietf.org, alexey.melnikov@isode.com, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org, dcrocker@bbiw.net Subject: [art] Protocol Action: 'The file URI Scheme' to Proposed Standard (draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-16.txt) X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 16:46:47 -0000 The IESG has approved the following document: - 'The file URI Scheme' (draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme-16.txt) as Proposed Standard This document is the product of the ART Area General Applications Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Alexey Melnikov, Ben Campbell and Alissa Cooper. A URL of this Internet Draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme/ Technical Summary This document specifies the "file" Uniform Resource Identifier (URI) scheme, replacing the definition in RFC 1738. It defines a common syntax which is intended to interoperate across the broad spectrum of existing usages. It also notes some other current practices around the use of file URIs. Working Group Summary The work was done in the APPSWG Working group and has received significant community comment, with multiple revisions resulting. Support for the work appears solid. This document went through two WGLCs. The first one yielded some input but the document shepherd review identified numerous issues that resulted in a flurry of other review traffic and document revisions. A second WGLC was then done that yielded no feedback at all. WG Chair/Shepherd suspect this is a result of wandered interest (since APPSAWG is closing) rather than any indication that the document is not sound or does not have consensus to proceed.] Document Quality Document development had some coordination with the W3C community, which can be expected to use this work. There are multiple implementations of this URI scheme, most notably different browsers. Personnel Document Shepherd: Dave Crocker Process management: Murray Kucherawy Responsible AD: Alexey Melnikov From nobody Mon Dec 19 09:36:13 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 434FE129C3B; Mon, 19 Dec 2016 09:36:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-3.1] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id on5Gx2YOtF1G; Mon, 19 Dec 2016 09:35:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A4002129C38; Mon, 19 Dec 2016 09:35:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.70] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1cJ1qo-000CkD-AF; Mon, 19 Dec 2016 12:35:50 -0500 Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 12:35:46 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Stephen Farrell , Matthew Kerwin , Alissa Cooper Message-ID: X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.70 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Cc: appsawg-chairs@ietf.org, Ted Hardie , art@ietf.org, The IESG , draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme@ietf.org, Dave Crocker Subject: Re: [art] WHATWG URL spec citation in draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 17:36:03 -0000 Hi. Sorry for the delay in getting to this, but, while I like the new text too, I think there is a complication that has implications elsewhere. I have tried to make what follows as balanced as possible. Opinions are very polarized about what I'm about to say, so finding that balance isn't easy. I note that the Protocol Action announcement for the file scheme specification appeared as I was proofing and about to send this note. If the note changes any thinking, the IESG should consider it an appeal of the decision to approve the file scheme spec. I hope it does not, only that the implications of the decision are clear. Backing up a bit from this particular case, we've got a full Standard for URIs (including URLs) in RFC 3986. That document has been very controversial, with different people seeing it quite differently. Some people see it as an extremely clear, specific, and binding spec. Their view has been used to justify a number of "you can't do that because it is inconsistent with 3986 and the idea of a generic URI" statements and positions vis-a-vis developments in the URI space. In particular, it has been key to the reasons why the URNBIS WG is many years behind its original schedule and continues to slide. I'm not sure whether my view is shared, but I think 3986 definitions and requirements are connected to our inability to move forward in the IETF with clarification and revision to IRIs (RFC 3987). Others of us find 3986 difficult to read and understand. I don't know that there is agreement about the specific issues, but various people believe, among other things, that its use of what is claimed to be ABNF violates the rules of that spec, that it is unclear about what is mandatory and what is merely a collection of examples or alternatives, and about what expectations it sets for parsing or processing of URIs independent of specific schemes. There are also concerns about whether its handling of URNs was consistent with the intent in RFC 2141 and other documents and, if it is not, whether the changes were intended by the community. Others are concerned about whether 3986 is consistent with actual deployed reality wrt either URNs or URLs and where it leaves the never-implemented (or at least never actively-used) URCs. As I understand it, WHATWG claims that their URL document was needed because 3986 does not reflect reality (at least their reality). Again, I personally think the "file:" spec, in its current form and including the new text, is fine and I like the care it takes about different approaches. However, if the IESG is going to allow a non-critical discussion of a definition alternative to 3986, even in a "Similar Technologies" section or appendix, then, IMO, a completely rigid position that people, at least some readers, believe that RFC 3986 takes a position and that position is therefore sacrosanct becomes untenable. I expect the community, and the IESG in particular, will remember that the next time an argument comes up about, e.g., whether a URN document is allowed to do things a bit differently than what some people believe 3986 says. To be clear, an argument against URNs being defined in a way that would cause interoperability problems with generic URI processors is a different matter entirely and should be taken seriously by the community, but, given this reference, those processors need to be real and deployed, and specific examples identified, to count not just theoretically possible given some reading of 3986. best, john --On Friday, 16 December, 2016 01:04 +0000 Stephen Farrell wrote: >> This is a great paragraph, it will be included in -16. > > Add me to the chorus. And thanks to all for thinking more > about this, I think it's to everyone's benefit if we try > as much as we can to handle forks in specs as well as we > can with a view to damage limitation. From nobody Thu Dec 22 08:35:26 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91CC612963F; Mon, 19 Dec 2016 12:46:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-3.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TPOAwRnljJsv; Mon, 19 Dec 2016 12:46:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from loire.is.ed.ac.uk (loire.is.ed.ac.uk [129.215.16.10]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E143412963E; Mon, 19 Dec 2016 12:46:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from crunchie.inf.ed.ac.uk (crunchie.inf.ed.ac.uk [129.215.33.180]) by loire.is.ed.ac.uk (8.14.7/8.14.6) with ESMTP id uBJKjju3004404; Mon, 19 Dec 2016 20:45:45 GMT Received: from troutbeck.inf.ed.ac.uk (troutbeck.inf.ed.ac.uk [129.215.25.32]) by crunchie.inf.ed.ac.uk (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id uBJKjhvU024715; Mon, 19 Dec 2016 20:45:44 GMT Received: from troutbeck.inf.ed.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by troutbeck.inf.ed.ac.uk (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id uBJKjhKh021198; Mon, 19 Dec 2016 20:45:43 GMT Received: (from ht@localhost) by troutbeck.inf.ed.ac.uk (8.14.7/8.14.7/Submit) id uBJKjeGf021196; Mon, 19 Dec 2016 20:45:40 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: troutbeck.inf.ed.ac.uk: ht set sender to ht@inf.ed.ac.uk using -f To: John C Klensin References: From: ht@inf.ed.ac.uk (Henry S. Thompson) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 20:45:40 +0000 In-Reply-To: (John C. Klensin's message of "Mon\, 19 Dec 2016 12\:35\:46 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1012 (Gnus v5.10.12) XEmacs/21.5-b34 (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Edinburgh-Scanned: at loire.is.ed.ac.uk with MIMEDefang 2.78, Sophie, Sophos Anti-Virus, Clam AntiVirus X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.78 on 129.215.16.10 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 22 Dec 2016 08:35:25 -0800 Cc: appsawg-chairs@ietf.org, Ted Hardie , art@ietf.org, Alissa Cooper , Matthew Kerwin , draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme@ietf.org, The IESG , Dave Crocker , Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [art] WHATWG URL spec citation in draft-ietf-appsawg-file-scheme X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2016 20:46:05 -0000 John C Klensin writes: > ... > However, if the IESG is going to allow a non-critical discussion of a > definition alternative to 3986, even in a "Similar Technologies" > section or appendix, then, IMO, a completely rigid position that > people, at least some readers, believe that RFC 3986 takes a position > and that position is therefore sacrosanct becomes untenable. I don't see how this follows, and I disagree. It doesn't follow because recognition of the existence of a competing _non-IETF_ spec is not the same as recognition of a conflict _between_ IETF specs. I disagree because in general if we are going to publish a spec which contradicts/extends/clarifies (pick any number) an existing IETF spec, we have a process for signalling that the existing spec is replaced/extended/amended, and I don't believe we should be forced to abandon that commitment to _internal_ consistency as some kind of collateral damage arising because we acknowledge that the rest of the world doesn't always respect our authority :-). ht -- Henry S. Thompson, School of Informatics, University of Edinburgh 10 Crichton Street, Edinburgh EH8 9AB, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440 Fax: (44) 131 650-4587, e-mail: ht@inf.ed.ac.uk URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/ [mail from me _always_ has a .sig like this -- mail without it is forged spam]