From nobody Tue Jul 10 11:16:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0379130DCE; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 11:16:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.738 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.738 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_OBFUSCATE_05_10=0.26, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UukCfbUQes8o; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 11:16:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x242.google.com (mail-lj1-x242.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 15903130EAA; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 11:16:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x242.google.com with SMTP id a6-v6so17462731ljj.7; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 11:16:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=FWlEJTohf263xqKx1KHBO+oRjUM/xhzkohKb5oPZQFo=; b=sL3PhMMZuXUJcVQhHQnaFnw5vESsd5YQE6+5fpvJKvY2TQOlyiKMVrG1Z2i+fIum91 Z5ORKyI0M2GVClNJ8rB6BaGUreO12z5jSNfnm2VXSQv0OmnAhTXiks+adbd3UqesAHcD xj/vDtSU307nd+vuIEvA9V9UFqS+HMEFSgFxfD2ZdsT0bGY2qq63lG6Z51Es9b5dbwm8 hndfWTeQXGmaD4+FD2P3wTh7pxkmSy0XjkbNAS0Jkn3yMUVgqvGVBiVAVg9Zd8kZlPRl MzceRQOsS20rv1tCOsm2ZYj/IOLvwMmVJF9b3kcP7XT41XsH57gxdZnsKLuCPKRwDH1D AOVg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=FWlEJTohf263xqKx1KHBO+oRjUM/xhzkohKb5oPZQFo=; b=qHxA/2mBSeLYFzJlO/YHfjTcm9GYK4VHSvol0XiW5mdlMhlItRfR4E8kPJMHvWXtyS RHNkbOJFwLlPd1zOuqfNlHoV3lt5/IpUj3Mwgi7d/0kLPZVgD43vUNmUiblo2Zzw7WqT cfeNIli4ddq4YgudPX4JLfI6IfbQ35WxF3qUyXEwWqTABE+tFfOvLHJewovTURHBkZww PrbJ6xsGRewkPIsQy0Z2HTwlzb/ZUBgEgqVP59TrDWKenqL9Ya9DQr4aMWsUZKA3dV8G N/r6BhabCAPka8Nnkd4caHoN2QUEBpbkgALZcVcIIWvss6PEvGPz4a8bLktOOsFZXwR5 cl2w== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E0xw1VcIVk/OEEsl277qr+UH8RZJS/nkG70w7QZvcMSWO5Tfwmq 517avqaODBI+VE8+nsS6Z56MylCKm9xBlzOV2Lg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpdOz7FUb7YiQLmxY9ojXPQdW0gGq8QUnx47Zb8VBjac0IFlMWjl8gdrS2xBf9AvlkZlFdNV37zs1od3zpac1o0= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:5b4a:: with SMTP id p71-v6mr15153060ljb.91.1531246584781; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 11:16:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a2e:9f51:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 11:16:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Mary Barnes Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 13:16:23 -0500 Message-ID: To: IETF ART Mailing List Cc: Barry Leiba , draft-ietf-dispatch-javascript-mjs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c010120570a92058" Archived-At: Subject: [art] Fwd: WGLC: draft-ietf-dispatch-javascript-mjs-02.txt X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 18:16:30 -0000 --000000000000c010120570a92058 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Since not everyone is on the DISPATCH WG mailing list, I'm forwarding this here. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Mary Barnes Date: Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 1:15 PM Subject: WGLC: draft-ietf-dispatch-javascript-mjs-02.txt To: DISPATCH Cc: draft-ietf-dispatch-javascript-mjs@ietf.org, Barry Leiba < barryleiba@computer.org> Hi all, We would like to start a 2 week WGLC for this document. If you think the document is ready, please respond to this email. If you have comments that you would like considered and/or any editorial suggestions, please post those as well. The WGLC ends on July 25, 2018. Regards, Mary DISPATCH WG tri-chair ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Date: Tue, May 8, 2018 at 5:41 PM Subject: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dispatch-javascript-mjs-02.txt To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: dispatch@ietf.org A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Dispatch WG of the IETF. Title : ECMAScript Media Types Updates Authors : Bradley Farias Matthew A. Miller Filename : draft-ietf-dispatch-javascript-mjs-02.txt Pages : 21 Date : 2018-05-08 Abstract: This document proposes updates to the ECMAScript media types, superseding the existing registrations for "application/javascript" and "text/javascript" by adding an additional extension and removing usage warnings. This document updates RFC4329, "Scripting Media Types". The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dispatch-javascript-mjs/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dispatch-javascript-mjs-02 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-dispatch-javascript-mjs-02 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dispatch-javascript-mjs-02 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ dispatch mailing list dispatch@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch --000000000000c010120570a92058 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Since not everyone is on the DISPATCH WG mailing list, I&#= 39;m forwarding this here.=C2=A0=C2=A0

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>
Date: T= ue, Jul 10, 2018 at 1:15 PM
Subject: WGLC: draft-ietf-dispatch-javascrip= t-mjs-02.txt
To: DISPATCH <dispa= tch@ietf.org>
Cc: draft-ietf-dispatch-javascript-mjs@ietf.org, Barry Leib= a <barryleiba@computer.org>


H= i all,


We would like to start a 2 week WGLC for this document.=C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0If you think the document is ready, please respond to this ema= il.=C2=A0 If you have comments that you would like considered and/or any ed= itorial suggestions, please post those as well.=C2=A0


The WGLC ends on J= uly 25, 2018.=C2=A0


Regard= s,

Mary=C2=A0

DISPAT= CH WG tri-chair


---------- Forwarded message ----------
F= rom: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, May 8, 2018 at 5:41 PM
Subject: [dispatch] I= -D Action: draft-ietf-dispatch-javascript-mjs-02.txt
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org<= br>Cc: dispatch@ietf= .org



A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies.
This draft is a work item of the Dispatch WG of the IETF.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:= ECMAScript Media Types Updates
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Authors=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: Brad= ley Farias
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Matthew A. Miller
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-iet= f-dispatch-javascript-mjs-02.txt
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:= 21
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 := 2018-05-08

Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document proposes updates to the ECMAScript media types,<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0superseding the existing registrations for "application/j= avascript"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0and "text/javascript" by adding an additional extens= ion and removing
=C2=A0 =C2=A0usage warnings.=C2=A0 This document updates RFC4329, "Scr= ipting Media
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Types".


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dispatch-javascript-mjs/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr= aft-ietf-dispatch-javascript-mjs-02
https://datatracker.ietf.= org/doc/html/draft-ietf-dispatch-javascript-mjs-02

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdif= f?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-dispatch-javascript-mjs-02


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch



--000000000000c010120570a92058-- From nobody Wed Jul 18 09:58:38 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9ADA130DCA for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 09:58:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.749 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.749 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lYsglc8u6arC for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 09:58:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb0-x233.google.com (mail-yb0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c09::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3C7E112DD85 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 09:58:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb0-x233.google.com with SMTP id c10-v6so2108071ybf.9 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 09:58:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=message-id:mime-version:to:from:subject:date:importance; bh=drMgzkD5tp3eGjEltydbZ/qqJ9L+tmHiRc6uLxmsoik=; b=YQ62sAdSiFByy7cFNlhgFu/K3TMRav5w7oxxSYjR5THnRE8I7fo3Yx3rcGEp32t0IP p6XtUr0g9G3g4oGESUQ3WAEi2G8/7+FxmAnGFHr+6ZxtxUvvek5U7ZdnJCwlQVsLcJeh msxOc4XSK0jdn/3gdKR6mSHAcQCTtpQSnJqPIvlSTJReTsKPyBOccBx4QR7psngpGlsW 0y0Zx7A3kRF3glng67PFOUCXon9TVofOkasiaCNErMBBCWHBfXB4hVcqNO2ikN4Bd2Oo a1dBnEhDNXsBhcr0JHCGjgxIc37UWXpuPv0C2TvqM7Cs1WzjOSK2/q+czx5yIpkcbQEF otcQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:mime-version:to:from:subject:date :importance; bh=drMgzkD5tp3eGjEltydbZ/qqJ9L+tmHiRc6uLxmsoik=; b=MbjSn4GYiiCNRHeKiQl5YtI+Mt8pHVjkqm43Y/swvSnrOCIw54L5rMKXH94ZsWkLRY dBk2RkqFEC5Q0t+c7ieC6rv6lXZYWvbdu+ZFSVerkf+ntuJyChW6pCVoXd+uqKQW4YzU 2Y2rx2zGvdAhFuZxLbxeF/WDYV021/7y0QwuThXz4f/3ovPYIdUAV8jQDdUBvoJgo8aT EMI3aTGVAlb1eT4tt8B15DyF2d3OYwju99A537LDdD1oEeqGZs8hOzkUioeWmeQCUUd2 RXWPsT7/5HYZKD9ytzUuNIEz1ZiwxeSlVUkJdBbWcTl7HUlHHsQtbqIYS8AOcaPgm9Dh Fy6g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlFzJ9CiPqM/98nBzyd+aHmSG3BauH8+AHJK/DHsXci5hYcVGxqY Y7+aM0dSAP3TSucZaQXfuTUPMFlI X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpfZD5MhI2KrecKrbjbuPrLE5vU5q7Q1UJzv6m37S5PEQxCqvce/pyb6ptnHD3FVCPBUs0i9yw== X-Received: by 2002:a25:1ed7:: with SMTP id e206-v6mr3493168ybe.22.1531933114237; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 09:58:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:192:4e00:596:9181:2b98:771a:bd23? ([2601:192:4e00:596:9181:2b98:771a:bd23]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y133-v6sm6052527ywy.31.2018.07.18.09.58.33 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 18 Jul 2018 09:58:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5b4f71b9.1c69fb81.cf0be.f7fd@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "art@ietf.org" From: Peter Occil Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 12:58:34 -0400 Importance: normal X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_D1B2EA26-E79C-4F8E-9B86-3B0D72C77F07_" Archived-At: Subject: [art] Question regarding RFC 8098 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 16:58:37 -0000 --_D1B2EA26-E79C-4F8E-9B86-3B0D72C77F07_ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" RFC 8098=E2=80=99s definition of the Original-Recipient and Final-Recipient= header fields appears not to take into account the utf-8-type-addr token d= efined in RFC 6533. There seems to be a conflict between them since RFC 80= 98 now allows comments (and folding white space) to appear after the addres= s in those header fields, and since utf-8-type-addr appears to technically = allow parentheses (comment delimiters) to appear in address. As a result, = the following examples are ambiguous: Original-Recipient: utf-8; paren(address@example.com) Original-Recipient: utf-8; paren@example.example(.com) In addition, the following examples may or may not be parse errors: Original-Recipient: utf-8; paren(address)paren@example.com Original-Recipient: utf-8; parenaddress)paren@example.com Original-Recipient: utf-8; paren(addressparen@example.com How this conflict and/or ambiguity is to be resolve should be discussed fur= ther. --Peter --_D1B2EA26-E79C-4F8E-9B86-3B0D72C77F07_ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"

RFC 8098=E2=80=99s definition of the= Original-Recipient and Final-Recipient header fields appears not to take i= nto account the utf-8-type-addr token defined in RFC 6533.=C2=A0 There seem= s to be a conflict between them since RFC 8098 now allows comments (and fol= ding white space) to appear after the address in those header fields, and s= ince utf-8-type-addr appears to technically allow parentheses (comment deli= miters) to appear in address.=C2=A0 As a result, the following examples are= ambiguous:

 

Original-Recipient: utf-8; paren(= address@example.com)

 

Original-Recipient: utf-8; paren@example.example(.com)=

 

In= addition, the following examples may or may not be parse errors:

 

Original-Recipient= : utf-8; paren(address)paren@e= xample.com

 

Original-Recipient: utf-8; parenaddress)paren@example.com

 

Original-Recipient: utf-8; paren(addressparen@example.com=

 

Ho= w this conflict and/or ambiguity is to be resolve should be discussed furth= er.

 

--Pet= er

 

 

= --_D1B2EA26-E79C-4F8E-9B86-3B0D72C77F07_-- From nobody Sat Jul 21 21:12:37 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E02D130E4A for ; Sat, 21 Jul 2018 21:12:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.749 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.749 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J1rDkqS3tEOO for ; Sat, 21 Jul 2018 21:12:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb0-x22a.google.com (mail-yb0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c09::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 475D2130E44 for ; Sat, 21 Jul 2018 21:12:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id i9-v6so6105984ybo.5 for ; Sat, 21 Jul 2018 21:12:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=message-id:mime-version:to:from:subject:date:importance; bh=drotunvaYM/lI+oX923ReZ6xzhsj9itFQX23HkSx+xM=; b=C9ltZxGHzlYKAzy/elDMh+ds4Fa2Vmnp3pbstxRSeT5nGEX2FDy8fxLmKE+lbR4D4X Aq3BrljXMR77jIXxgNx5/kPBGhz1G2P9hg5AiBNnIYgzGf9lnwqqskNi14TwYsEaeZxD kQwUA8Vp/qzC0SmHu343iqcdQpcSn+iYZm5XoCBu2bkbaeuKJl8jNetWkNbqt2w2pidk WvOSDS9ZHAul4HmcR/LNjGQ7NXz1N6nP7DModXjWO2ynxNvmS+jqol1my27fSbpPjqUV +SxJlQper6b707BWT5uQX3U2khM4aQ6wPzSRBF+kmFbNmmcAb+SoTkR8CTfLsG47Bnfb kXRA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:mime-version:to:from:subject:date :importance; bh=drotunvaYM/lI+oX923ReZ6xzhsj9itFQX23HkSx+xM=; b=hIElMeICS9kqHLHiC9ux/4yjhhtEPwUZgabj/dZEL6voss40tbvc1gakhxWcu3aC6G JJyW+0gNudyZI4R0FTA4lOvxhPtsx6e7er8V7eukP01ycerETItXG3ZZfAQ2LlNNKFUP ddDkRHGHHxQyt2UPRQIRParzFN6903V51fTPHh8My74WcqAwK8KRhWAt++0Fx2nJywLE yChkbLbHNPntwhgwqrHM4xA/nP0jgyC0H3wkPd76k0auq0ItijgzBRdiqC95H6ngDEes lnrdTXtsNs7qMiKT+7TadmjzP2Hvi39qpFS9Nb1elfawayfu32WEwrriNLH51p2FcFQ0 6SFw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlFokubRm6Fk/mW/is56a2Q9ZNofin4q+Sz/cnV+UpSzzJ7RgM6M tvgzCvzKmx/X7hvaaJBHVsUhgyVu X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpcpIjNYYC37XjCx3rvP45Tv5f3BoVkO0EhDONMNlG/4/Q6QR3PHP7TTdOUiuePgoG/S4oJ1zg== X-Received: by 2002:a25:d87:: with SMTP id 129-v6mr4136120ybn.143.1532232751046; Sat, 21 Jul 2018 21:12:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:192:4e00:596:7d53:722a:c42d:2554? ([2601:192:4e00:596:7d53:722a:c42d:2554]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f64-v6sm2968807ywd.58.2018.07.21.21.12.29 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 21 Jul 2018 21:12:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5b54042e.1c69fb81.952a3.f6a8@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "art@ietf.org" From: Peter Occil Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 00:12:33 -0400 Importance: normal X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_DE40D901-D0F3-4D90-8A25-6D0FACA2657A_" Archived-At: Subject: [art] Seeking clarification on boundary delimiters in RFC 2046 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 04:12:35 -0000 --_DE40D901-D0F3-4D90-8A25-6D0FACA2657A_ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" RFC 2046 sec. 5.1 contains the following: NOTE TO IMPLEMENTORS: Boundary string comparisons must compare the boundary value with the beginning of each candidate line. An exact match of the entire candidate line is not required; it is sufficient that the boundary appear in its entirety following the CRLF. Say a message has the following media type: multipart/mixed; boundary=3D"b1" It seems obvious that the following all work the same way as marking the ne= xt body part in the message: --b1 --b1BOUNDARY --b1 (followed by whitespace) What is not clear is whether any or all of the following work as the boundary delimiter marking the end of all body parts (no example is included in RFC 2045 clarifying this matter): --b1-- --b1BOUNDARY-- --b1--BOUNDARY --b1-- (followed by whitespace) --b1--BOUNDARY (followed by whitespace) Can this be clarified? --_DE40D901-D0F3-4D90-8A25-6D0FACA2657A_ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"

RFC 2046 sec. 5.1 contains the follo= wing:

 

=C2= =A0=C2=A0 NOTE TO IMPLEMENTORS:=C2=A0 Boundary string comparisons must comp= are the

=C2=A0=C2=A0 boundary value with the beginn= ing of each candidate line.=C2=A0 An exact

=C2=A0= =C2=A0 match of the entire candidate line is not required; it is sufficient=

=C2=A0=C2=A0 that the boundary appear in its entir= ety following the CRLF.

 

Say a message has the following media type:

 

=C2=A0=C2=A0 multipart/mi= xed; boundary=3D"b1"

 

It seems obvious that the following all work the same= way as marking the next

body part in the message:<= /p>

 

=C2=A0=C2= =A0 --b1

 

= =C2=A0=C2=A0 --b1BOUNDARY

 

=C2=A0=C2=A0 --b1 (followed by whitespace)

 

What is not clear is whe= ther any or all of the following work as

the bounda= ry delimiter marking the end of all body parts (no example

is included in RFC 2045 clarifying this matter):

 

=C2=A0=C2=A0 --b1--

 

=C2=A0=C2=A0 --b= 1BOUNDARY--

 

=C2=A0=C2=A0 --b1--BOUNDARY

 

=C2=A0=C2=A0 --b1--=C2=A0 (followed by whitespace)

 

=C2=A0=C2= =A0 --b1--BOUNDARY (followed by whitespace)

&n= bsp;

Can this be clarified?

 

 

 

= --_DE40D901-D0F3-4D90-8A25-6D0FACA2657A_-- From nobody Sun Jul 22 08:21:11 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57FB8130DEC for ; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 08:21:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mrochek.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Codbv-XAdjbp for ; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 08:21:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [68.183.62.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B91C4124D68 for ; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 08:21:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01QV5Z5KCB0G00815D@mauve.mrochek.com> for art@ietf.org; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 08:15:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=mrochek.com; s=201712; t=1532272558; bh=xD0G1TFt+CXnd/dZcDpm2ZNv/UwTNfkJ8Yjj9vnozXo=; h=Cc:Date:From:Subject:In-reply-to:References:To:From; b=UBIXT0drUaNsZ/7B15lGZlfzJe4QisCUeKUayS9TrwXsV5/8xzzJYmXLaqkKNWQYu fyhYqAOb79vzMxxJB2YTUl0wW7KQDI9KNuW3kJTuFSpBt3renIrxa2g8DXF/m1YLKN zQG2EeeDuwB7oJHOtd2jr26OtbcbVcc0B7bA/HfQ= MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01QUCIBNY1B4000051@mauve.mrochek.com>; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 08:15:53 -0700 (PDT) Cc: "art@ietf.org" Message-id: <01QV5Z5GEG3G000051@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 08:12:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Ned Freed In-reply-to: "Your message dated Sun, 22 Jul 2018 00:12:33 -0400" <5b54042e.1c69fb81.952a3.f6a8@mx.google.com> References: <5b54042e.1c69fb81.952a3.f6a8@mx.google.com> To: Peter Occil Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Seeking clarification on boundary delimiters in RFC 2046 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 15:21:10 -0000 > RFC 2046 sec. 5.1 contains the following: > NOTE TO IMPLEMENTORS: Boundary string comparisons must compare the > boundary value with the beginning of each candidate line. An exact > match of the entire candidate line is not required; it is sufficient > that the boundary appear in its entirety following the CRLF. > Say a message has the following media type: > multipart/mixed; boundary="b1" > It seems obvious that the following all work the same way as marking the next > body part in the message: > --b1 > --b1BOUNDARY > --b1 (followed by whitespace) > What is not clear is whether any or all of the following work as > the boundary delimiter marking the end of all body parts (no example > is included in RFC 2045 clarifying this matter): This is why we have ABNF. And the ABNF is very clear - the dash-boundary must immediately follow the delimiter to be considered to be a closing delimiter: close-delimiter := delimiter "--" > --b1-- This is a close-delimiter. > --b1BOUNDARY-- This is a dash-boundary but not a close-delimiter. > --b1--BOUNDARY This is a close-delimiter. > --b1-- (followed by whitespace) This is a close-delimiter. > --b1--BOUNDARY (followed by whitespace) This is a close-delimiter. > Can this be clarified? Why? The ABNF spells this out very clearly. Ned From nobody Sun Jul 22 09:19:09 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07586130E3F for ; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 09:19:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.748 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.748 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YTF-nqUmbTt4 for ; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 09:19:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-x22b.google.com (mail-yw0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CFEB7127332 for ; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 09:19:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id l189-v6so6017643ywb.10 for ; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 09:19:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=message-id:mime-version:to:cc:from:subject:date:importance :in-reply-to:references; bh=W3EZ6Uo3t+Ro/hdNTDKp6XbYsR4FyCEb5dBSn1gShX0=; b=rghg3ItAPSxX94MQctB3kZ8FMpP9F//OoiQUlsfayT4DF96Mg8jMEMiRwKK58246I8 nVMdqN9Ef/reNTV4lQR+BPWg7G3iutrpIrD7y906XqHBkXdANUrrOju32x7ZAA6ktsfm w4tiMV/yU0F0MSQ/lpmDb4W3C+YCzmJUbcXTgt3TG9V7OXYrB4E69or59d2Dt8xTGEHi tvb8NpeT0ECEKAdC5DrBcu1k+1ljyWFQ11RZd6FTL2VqBnhWM0XAMd0XTST2Eh0hjKQT /vjGifEPGVr/f1iLhMiO31v+a1ImoxzQOChElcjYrJC0NUvQoQiCksYveHWaDsLrswLW 1L/A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:mime-version:to:cc:from:subject:date :importance:in-reply-to:references; bh=W3EZ6Uo3t+Ro/hdNTDKp6XbYsR4FyCEb5dBSn1gShX0=; b=AvkM0+MYygcAOqg2ZSDbM1hu/vfzhSZ1gv9jBqzmz6m2Rp10ouvcRNHx1haZMaD/hB 01Ae4U/bhlt5dyP0iI/L6T0V4sf2r23I998b3d7JKPeyi7wbJFtoUEnN3IMXg/8O5/oU qJ7MRnGQMIpIeBZKTPBFGJ7uRQbjC4Jpxvbfl9H5O6z2IsTJ99dZIexYnHKUh7qUv1gx xk0yM+OS7EdlmO2mwNLnXG6BuZ3aJjlaa3fRVLct5DWBGfMEdRnrOAhZ8Hx7nvfTbFpk T9eUFr300PXw7LR7L6hfMbZRFkEn855CRLpG9bT80YeQoIkhvIdDe2TyZnepLbwg2GU9 cxng== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlFAh0Mi1ppO7hX6axo1vkAu/Fsuqr424HMUMq1Rd4x7bQeaXCmw Je0Olf/BE6xvJaTOCmH40TU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpeILNH+OdXcIjv0J6dPUpwt9UvxwZtlGDn3VJT6JNeEBblGG5dDc6XN6IoDKF1o+nlQEyohew== X-Received: by 2002:a81:62d4:: with SMTP id w203-v6mr4749009ywb.283.1532276343969; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 09:19:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:192:4e00:596:22:8b71:4eb9:6006? ([2601:192:4e00:596:22:8b71:4eb9:6006]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p124-v6sm3389197ywf.85.2018.07.22.09.19.03 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 22 Jul 2018 09:19:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5b54ae77.1c69fb81.42106.1987@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ned Freed Cc: "art@ietf.org" From: Peter Occil Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 12:19:05 -0400 Importance: normal X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <01QV5Z5GEG3G000051@mauve.mrochek.com> References: <5b54042e.1c69fb81.952a3.f6a8@mx.google.com> <01QV5Z5GEG3G000051@mauve.mrochek.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_B45617A0-E77D-45DF-B5C4-0AF898E9F1A7_" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Seeking clarification on boundary delimiters in RFC 2046 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 16:19:07 -0000 --_B45617A0-E77D-45DF-B5C4-0AF898E9F1A7_ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" You have clarified this matter enough. Thank you. ----- A further observation.=C2=A0 What hung me up was the fact that the note to = implementors spoke of the =E2=80=9Cboundary value=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cthe = boundary=E2=80=9D (which I understood to be the value of the media type=E2= =80=99s boundary parameter) rather than the =E2=80=9Cdash-boundary=E2=80=9D= or the =E2=80=9Cclose-delimiter=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 It would have been better = with text like the following, but I see no rush or need to update RFC 2046 = with such text now: =C2=A0=C2=A0 NOTE TO IMPLEMENTORS: Boundary string comparisons must compare= the dash-boundary or the close-delimiter with the beginning of each candid= ate line.=C2=A0 [=E2=80=A6] it is sufficient that the dash-boundary or the = close-delimiter appear [=E2=80=A6] . Again, you have clarified this matter enough for me. Thank you again. --Peter From: Ned Freed Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2018 11:21 AM To: Peter Occil Cc: art@ietf.org Subject: Re: [art] Seeking clarification on boundary delimiters in RFC 2046 > RFC 2046 sec. 5.1 contains the following: > NOTE TO IMPLEMENTORS: Boundary string comparisons must compare the > boundary value with the beginning of each candidate line. An exact > match of the entire candidate line is not required; it is sufficient > that the boundary appear in its entirety following the CRLF. > Say a message has the following media type: > multipart/mixed; boundary=3D"b1" > It seems obvious that the following all work the same way as marking the = next > body part in the message: > --b1 > --b1BOUNDARY > --b1 (followed by whitespace) > What is not clear is whether any or all of the following work as > the boundary delimiter marking the end of all body parts (no example > is included in RFC 2045 clarifying this matter): This is why we have ABNF. And the ABNF is very clear - the dash-boundary mu= st immediately follow the delimiter to be considered to be a closing delimiter= : close-delimiter :=3D delimiter "--" > --b1-- This is a close-delimiter. > --b1BOUNDARY-- This is a dash-boundary but not a close-delimiter. > --b1--BOUNDARY This is a close-delimiter. > --b1-- (followed by whitespace) This is a close-delimiter. > --b1--BOUNDARY (followed by whitespace) This is a close-delimiter. > Can this be clarified? Why? The ABNF spells this out very clearly. Ned --_B45617A0-E77D-45DF-B5C4-0AF898E9F1A7_ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"

You have clarified this matter enoug= h.=C2=A0 Thank you.

 

-----

 

A further observation.  What hung me up was the fact that th= e note to implementors spoke of the =E2=80=9Cboundary value=E2=80=9D or =E2= =80=9Cthe boundary=E2=80=9D (which I understood to be the value of the medi= a type=E2=80=99s boundary parameter) rather than the =E2=80=9Cdash-boundary= =E2=80=9D or the =E2=80=9Cclose-delimiter=E2=80=9D.  It would have bee= n better with text like the following, but I see no rush or need to update = RFC 2046 with such text now:

 =

   NOTE TO IMPLEMENTORS: Boundary = string comparisons must compare the dash-boundary or the close-delimiter wi= th the beginning of each candidate line.  [=E2=80=A6] it is sufficient= that the dash-boundary or the close-delimiter appear [=E2=80=A6] .

 

Again= , you have clarified this matter enough for me.=C2=A0 Thank you again.=

 

--= Peter

 

From: Ned Freed
= Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2018 11:21 AM
To: Peter Occil
Cc: art@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [art] Seeking clarification= on boundary delimiters in RFC 2046

&nbs= p;

> RFC 2046 sec. 5.1 contains the follow= ing:

 

>= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 NOTE TO IMPLEMENTORS:=C2=A0 Boundary string comparisons = must compare the

>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 boundary va= lue with the beginning of each candidate line.=C2=A0 An exact

>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 match of the entire candidate line is n= ot required; it is sufficient

>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 that the boundary appear in its entirety following the CRLF.

 

> Say a message = has the following media type:

 

=

>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 multipart/mixed; boundary=3D&qu= ot;b1"

 

> It seems obvious that the following all work the same way as markin= g the next

> body part in the message:

 

>=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 --b1

 

>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 --b1BOUNDARY

 <= /o:p>

>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 --b1 (followed by whit= espace)

 

&= gt; What is not clear is whether any or all of the following work as

> the boundary delimiter marking the end of all body p= arts (no example

> is included in RFC 2045 clari= fying this matter):

 

This is why we have ABNF. And the ABNF is very clear - the das= h-boundary must

immediately follow the delimiter to= be considered to be a closing delimiter:

&nbs= p;

=C2=A0=C2=A0 close-delimiter :=3D delimite= r "--"

 

>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 --b1--

 

This is a close-delimiter.

 

>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 --b1B= OUNDARY--

 

This is a dash-boundary but not a close-delimiter.

 

>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 --b1--BOU= NDARY

 

Thi= s is a close-delimiter.

 

>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 --b1--=C2=A0 (followed by whitespace)=

 

This is = a close-delimiter.

 

>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 --b1--BOUNDARY (followed by whitespace)

 

This is a c= lose-delimiter.

 

> Can this be clarified?

 

Why? The ABNF spells this out very clearly.

 

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Ned

 

 

= --_B45617A0-E77D-45DF-B5C4-0AF898E9F1A7_-- From nobody Sun Jul 22 17:06:10 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D776131092 for ; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 17:06:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f7FV8PXnEck2 for ; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 17:06:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [4.31.198.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 52860131089 for ; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 17:06:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id CD758B80F99; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 17:05:58 -0700 (PDT) To: superuser@gmail.com, ben@nostrum.com, aamelnikov@fastmail.fm, adam@nostrum.com, superuser@gmail.com X-PHP-Originating-Script: 30:errata_mail_lib.php From: RFC Errata System Cc: poccil14@gmail.com, art@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Message-Id: <20180723000558.CD758B80F99@rfc-editor.org> Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 17:05:58 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: [art] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7601 (5435) X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 00:06:09 -0000 The following errata report has been submitted for RFC7601, "Message Header Field for Indicating Message Authentication Status". -------------------------------------- You may review the report below and at: http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5435 -------------------------------------- Type: Technical Reported by: Peter Occil Section: 2.2 Original Text ------------- resinfo = [CFWS] ";" methodspec [ CFWS reasonspec ] *( CFWS propspec ) Corrected Text -------------- resinfo = [CFWS] ";" methodspec [ CFWS reasonspec ] [ CFWS 1*propspec ] Notes ----- Since propspec includes optional CFWS at end, parsing the current version of resinfo will result in at most one propspec even if methodspec is followed by more than one propspec. Instructions: ------------- This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. -------------------------------------- RFC7601 (draft-ietf-appsawg-rfc7001bis-11) -------------------------------------- Title : Message Header Field for Indicating Message Authentication Status Publication Date : August 2015 Author(s) : M. Kucherawy Category : PROPOSED STANDARD Source : ART Area General Application Working Group Area : Applications and Real-Time Stream : IETF Verifying Party : IESG From nobody Sun Jul 22 18:58:37 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 864E8130DD2 for ; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 18:58:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r1GXWf9wvg78 for ; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 18:58:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D3CC8130DC9 for ; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 18:58:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 2780 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2018 01:58:30 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; s=ad6.5b553646.k1807; bh=/Hx3SVF7EjgoSpU5yXJeyI5JW6dgH4D1RpyxCJrrlDo=; b=FHIr+uBJ6TctaGnRunUBhXKOp8Gj3nEmhkp46LpiXifldtNl0lEndTBZhpfY9CyIaZwSm13QJj/qSO5NC3qSD104otyQWOkl9L+xpVLETB/mFU3IUg4WeL8A/DQouYZWmNkIWtPqyjFRvJRM2nzVTJ9ld67lCOWqwzhz7r7mBJG5fC0YGQ/WjSHkErjdrdkMFL99/6W21BNjTImP//mDrkfAFOz7FnRSXP552vrxR35HBVbfJP/96C5w8NwAcIB7 Received: from localhost ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2/X.509/AEAD) via TCP6; 23 Jul 2018 01:58:30 -0000 Date: 22 Jul 2018 21:58:30 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R. Levine" To: "RFC Errata System" Cc: "Murray Kucherawy" , ben@nostrum.com, "Alexey Melnikov" , adam@nostrum.com, poccil14@gmail.com, art@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <20180723000558.CD758B80F99@rfc-editor.org> References: <20180723000558.CD758B80F99@rfc-editor.org> User-Agent: Alpine 2.21 (OSX 202 2017-01-01) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7601 (5435) X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 01:58:35 -0000 I think this erratum is wrong. The CFWS at the end of propspec is actuall in the included pvalue rule and it's optional, so I think the ABNF is correct albeit clumsy. ABNF doesn't have to be LL(1) or anything like that although I concur that it would be nice if it is where reasonably possible. Regardless, we are in last call for draft-ietf-dmarc-rfc7601bis in the dmarc WG so if there's anything to fix, that's the place to fix it. The ABNF for resinfo and propspec haven't changed. R's, John On Sun, 22 Jul 2018, RFC Errata System wrote: > The following errata report has been submitted for RFC7601, > "Message Header Field for Indicating Message Authentication Status". > > -------------------------------------- > You may review the report below and at: > http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5435 > > -------------------------------------- > Type: Technical > Reported by: Peter Occil > > Section: 2.2 > > Original Text > ------------- > resinfo = [CFWS] ";" methodspec [ CFWS reasonspec ] > *( CFWS propspec ) > > > Corrected Text > -------------- > resinfo = [CFWS] ";" methodspec [ CFWS reasonspec ] > [ CFWS 1*propspec ] > > > Notes > ----- > Since propspec includes optional CFWS at end, parsing the current version of resinfo will result in at most one propspec even if methodspec is followed by more than one propspec. > > Instructions: > ------------- > This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please > use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or > rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party > can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. > > -------------------------------------- > RFC7601 (draft-ietf-appsawg-rfc7001bis-11) > -------------------------------------- > Title : Message Header Field for Indicating Message Authentication Status > Publication Date : August 2015 > Author(s) : M. Kucherawy > Category : PROPOSED STANDARD > Source : ART Area General Application Working Group > Area : Applications and Real-Time > Stream : IETF > Verifying Party : IESG > > Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From nobody Sun Jul 22 19:14:04 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFE98130E09 for ; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 19:14:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.749 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.749 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pmAypNQkWWzK for ; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 19:14:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb0-x22d.google.com (mail-yb0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c09::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EEC50130DC9 for ; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 19:13:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id l16-v6so6705753ybk.11 for ; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 19:13:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=message-id:mime-version:to:cc:from:subject:date:importance :in-reply-to:references; bh=qUwIpTubJ8ih1E6dui6gAgUkIAoR+E06Px196ckm90g=; b=LNW8QyVHdqL3qa5mSMEMDIp6T3if8T1cFEmwLU1v1noOmn9IPg5mdR5iZ8quXlXf/t MsgR7DQwVgbfR8+08eiJAgxMStfOl3sGFomnds69t0U7sPigt/8szHK7qzwjw/Wx/xnW CzJwj9BW4ntxv3ALMFHUpV5DUmYtTvHByjmTwN88s+tGgyiMfiwxtClsr9o2k+tW0i0D DX28FPafZSrl4QhoMkhv5e5Mh5aySmt8PKT9QSTrvugS5oj/I4D52cyOy5R9pBGRaNf1 gUH/Y8ygjAKc3dkNfnrejFVITYWYor8EYMkcIN3pxRHeJuDJ7pJZrr6cdzrUWfXfOZO+ evPg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:mime-version:to:cc:from:subject:date :importance:in-reply-to:references; bh=qUwIpTubJ8ih1E6dui6gAgUkIAoR+E06Px196ckm90g=; b=eGyBQycQh9B36Ou3XPcJIACGDenxEyhK26T4lw18RqpFay6pdZ+uWAkonPVPBb7g9F a5uUQDCOm4llGnO9wjRdzHwTBDYfKvbSFUziwAO4HDd2MR20D6kIH+iGPHPyWou2WUHC EId6cpQXI10CeZgxcAYhyDX78OhhzPEFbN1mbDreKbzYbUj9YFzl9HOJ6fVeRA4Mw5P2 ryNcB+DcOFrHmH9MWBCN+eR4oMCANmFXU116IybzR+1cFPhjckgWTP1oDeObJlsn3j2S 1aB7U0+pkFiVgCDozvzsGMHEoBxBVHJL2yOHdVlvo4coZX6abIqVrMirzjBnOUoNBvDA SSkw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlGIKhcBMMZhxh7/P9bmdGOTJarvklxfHjhsmYUMtdbTjhiTf8wH eqqta+Go938ob2/dMv6fr+c= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpf5xPxPX8SgBhdq3NnyVjV/MZDAFFsyMCerkewbHtPOBRyXBi+qLkMvpBNOBHq2MBEmA8SIzQ== X-Received: by 2002:a25:11ca:: with SMTP id 193-v6mr5927553ybr.176.1532312039288; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 19:13:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:192:4e00:596:22:8b71:4eb9:6006? ([2601:192:4e00:596:22:8b71:4eb9:6006]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r69-v6sm4101056ywh.44.2018.07.22.19.13.58 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 22 Jul 2018 19:13:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5b5539e6.1c69fb81.b4b6d.5477@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "John R. Levine" , RFC Errata System Cc: Murray Kucherawy , "ben@nostrum.com" , Alexey Melnikov , "adam@nostrum.com" , "art@ietf.org" From: Peter Occil Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 22:13:59 -0400 Importance: normal X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: References: <20180723000558.CD758B80F99@rfc-editor.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_9125C7F7-274A-4B44-8C3C-C87AD3E309AC_" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7601 (5435) X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 02:14:02 -0000 --_9125C7F7-274A-4B44-8C3C-C87AD3E309AC_ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Speaking of last calls, the production =E2=80=9Carc-info=E2=80=9D in draft-= ietf-dmarc-arc-protocol, which is also in last call, includes a semicolon a= fter =E2=80=9Cinstance=E2=80=9D, which in turn has a semicolon at the end. = However, a great number of Arc-Authentication-Results header fields I=E2= =80=99ve seen in practice include only one semicolon between the instance a= nd the =E2=80=9Cauthres-payload=E2=80=9D; for example: =E2=80=9Ci=3D1; mx.e= xample.com; =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D. And also, the erratum I submitted can be correct for handling certain parse= rs that skip the CFWS in the =E2=80=9Cpvalue=E2=80=9D, set the pointer to a= fter the CFWS (if any), and move on to parsing the next =E2=80=9CCFWS props= pec=E2=80=9D within the (current) =E2=80=9Cresinfo=E2=80=9D production (in = other words, the parser does =E2=80=9Cgreedy=E2=80=9D matching). --Peter From: John R. Levine Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2018 9:58 PM To: RFC Errata System Cc: Murray Kucherawy; ben@nostrum.com; Alexey Melnikov; adam@nostrum.com; p= occil14@gmail.com; art@ietf.org Subject: Re: [art] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7601 (5435) [=E2=80=A6] Regardless, we are in last call for draft-ietf-dmarc-rfc7601bis in the dmarc WG so if there's anything to fix, that's the place to fix it. [=E2=80=A6] --_9125C7F7-274A-4B44-8C3C-C87AD3E309AC_ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"

Speaking of last calls, the producti= on =E2=80=9Carc-info=E2=80=9D in draft-ietf-dmarc-arc-protocol, which is al= so in last call, includes a semicolon after =E2=80=9Cinstance=E2=80=9D, whi= ch in turn has a semicolon at the end.=C2=A0 However, a great number of Arc= -Authentication-Results header fields I=E2=80=99ve seen in practice include= only one semicolon between the instance and the =E2=80=9Cauthres-payload= =E2=80=9D; for example: =E2=80=9Ci=3D1; mx.example.com; =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D.=

 

And also= , the erratum I submitted can be correct for handling certain parsers that = skip the CFWS in the =E2=80=9Cpvalue=E2=80=9D, set the pointer to after the= CFWS (if any), and move on to parsing the next =E2=80=9CCFWS propspec=E2= =80=9D within the (current) =E2=80=9Cresinfo=E2=80=9D production (in other = words, the parser does =E2=80=9Cgreedy=E2=80=9D matching).

 

--Peter

 

 

=  

[=E2=80=A6]

 

Regardless, we are in last call for= draft-ietf-dmarc-rfc7601bis in the

dmarc WG so if = there's anything to fix, that's the place to fix it.

 

[=E2=80=A6]

 

= --_9125C7F7-274A-4B44-8C3C-C87AD3E309AC_-- From nobody Sun Jul 22 19:33:06 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB0C8130DF4 for ; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 19:33:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yr3a7TOG_K0g for ; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 19:33:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 94933130DDC for ; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 19:33:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 17357 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2018 02:33:01 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; s=43c9.5b553e5d.k1807; bh=Cn8ypSjhuSjM9uHLbFEvLhpp9cko3ep/G02UtYdyCto=; b=EAp66BmT3L085H0s51XBeEUlKebiwwEa58hjhOBYMVpCZ+eL4MeUxq+uEojew6EJsYYBIZtYlc7/gKw+6pwTM9YnIqGLsf6en1csDhxSRHYqp9M0yJSuP1UEjfy4QvcbTkEXhBBSuetdhzlb+1zepXcpfO6wuqdMKyOKO/ZF/5gUnsy9t+39mXnT4lg6w9SDgVP9YDdJ0ABWYnLQRk299jcrQQDhC5HMyC9nUKAWRHZ756Ogvrd7UVEAKUor+qZr Received: from localhost ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2/X.509/AEAD) via TCP6; 23 Jul 2018 02:33:00 -0000 Date: 22 Jul 2018 22:33:00 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R. Levine" To: "Peter Occil" Cc: "Murray Kucherawy" , "ben@nostrum.com" , "Alexey Melnikov" , "adam@nostrum.com" , "art@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <5b5539e6.1c69fb81.b4b6d.5477@mx.google.com> References: <20180723000558.CD758B80F99@rfc-editor.org> <5b5539e6.1c69fb81.b4b6d.5477@mx.google.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.21 (OSX 202 2017-01-01) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="0-2085784901-1532313180=:19369" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7601 (5435) X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 02:33:05 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-2085784901-1532313180=:19369 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT > And also, the erratum I submitted can be correct for handling certain > parsers that skip the CFWS in the “pvalue”, set the pointer to after the > CFWS (if any), and move on to parsing the next “CFWS propspec” within > the (current) “resinfo” production (in other words, the parser does > “greedy” matching). ABNF doesn't have to be LL(k) or LR(k), so greedy parsers won't work, at least not without rewriting the rules to factor out ambiguities. Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly --0-2085784901-1532313180=:19369-- From nobody Mon Jul 23 05:19:58 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B2FC130E17; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 05:19:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.749 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.749 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00Xdtn1POhDj; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 05:19:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-x236.google.com (mail-yw0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB3C5130DE1; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 05:19:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw0-x236.google.com with SMTP id c135-v6so134552ywa.0; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 05:19:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=message-id:mime-version:to:cc:from:subject:date:importance :in-reply-to:references; bh=57eGCdAByLhkXEw62dPrwiJVFRBIYnUt3T5HuWRmYXE=; b=PxJNy32v4Z9GySSfjXMEBlBCMXv5ueV1se5l1vmYdSO3Op+3zXUQZdbUFfmo6A5xkN uy4/E2PIij2DdjT6w8nvqGj9ZMSPQg/D1jn56pz1sbHpozH5E4uXr82ncUgxxr6m8Pk3 gdoEUhJcRKnYA376WB2sRzbZQj2/GKGSu3tydfMDKjZfWXLhRLN+TIve2LOqhKqYtPqH HngLlB9xhliBKQ9S24BFT5Q07U92bn6rPSq/GGZPyGS0A537hu9hPxSaDpZqnMG5wllE dfRhT7Aapqe84tVpWjoGSR4GyCVzB6zo34iL8jRagQLEDOA7mB+iUQBXHLsNht0niW97 qKnA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:mime-version:to:cc:from:subject:date :importance:in-reply-to:references; bh=57eGCdAByLhkXEw62dPrwiJVFRBIYnUt3T5HuWRmYXE=; b=oJzJ8vaOCJ4d9etezc71w9X2lqTAywnDKc/kH5HNT5/R0eqEzDEeiSrPwsfd5KSw5B e+TOl3LkAz3V3P7WUFiDSimALzF5yL2DlfFobK+e0cTWprpEV1ZFcUa6CYS/eOuG2qYD 1/qnUB3wcNgh4OWBZwViKbqIgSZOtreHF02swmdWBasEqyVlYDCfF0VqixAcxcp1U6/e b91REeCsyf1Mw8guFsnTe2XazcBCgfnpEIGdqoIVRrV9xg3iuATAzJ360W2gtYPkzQ/Z 5BlwxzDGctyPI0Cr9/xjumFuIf16TTtHyO8A1urcKC6puYkeYEQqGHyMcXkt04TIsi01 ItCQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlFEns9a0MvloF7UwDafHgOHsELbWAxd6KoQ+fF80VRwQr6/rNVy sly8d9kLep6+wnabl9kJVCc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpfRntP+VhgGiOmViyyugdSD7f40yRJWdlSkj2/uvqeN7svGSSEw0Bnk0P8SjCBj3FWp/UAPBw== X-Received: by 2002:a81:2913:: with SMTP id p19-v6mr6329745ywp.270.1532348388174; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 05:19:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:192:4e00:596:22:8b71:4eb9:6006? ([2601:192:4e00:596:22:8b71:4eb9:6006]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y133-v6sm7318536ywy.31.2018.07.23.05.19.46 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 23 Jul 2018 05:19:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5b55c7e3.1c69fb81.10c36.95dc@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "John R. Levine" , "abnf-discuss@ietf.org" Cc: Murray Kucherawy , "ben@nostrum.com" , Alexey Melnikov , "adam@nostrum.com" , "art@ietf.org" From: Peter Occil Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 08:19:48 -0400 Importance: normal X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: References: <20180723000558.CD758B80F99@rfc-editor.org> <5b5539e6.1c69fb81.b4b6d.5477@mx.google.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_3DC1092F-2F87-4954-8E0F-FBB2D9E9FFD2_" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7601 (5435) X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 12:19:51 -0000 --_3DC1092F-2F87-4954-8E0F-FBB2D9E9FFD2_ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" You have pointed to an unexpected weakness of ABNF. As a result, it's unfo= rtunate that many ABNF productions in RFCs can't generally be used as is in= order to build a parser, since ABNF itself has no strong concept of matchi= ng. =20 For example, RFC 5234 sec. 3.2 is silent on which order alternative product= ions are to be matched (although this silence can be useful, I admit, in or= der for the incremental alternatives feature, sec. 3.3, to work). The prod= uction "received-token" in RFC 5322 is illustrative: received-token =3D word / angle-addr / addr-spec / domain Both "word" and "domain" include the production "atom". Thus, whether a re= ceived-token parser parses an "atom" as a "word" or as a "domain" depends o= n the context in which the "atom" appears, the kind of parser (greedy or no= t), or whether earlier alternatives take precedence over latter alternative= s or vice versa, none of which is defined in RFC 5234. "Obviously", if the = "atom" is part of a domain, then the received-token should be the whole "do= main" regardless of the details just mentioned. [ Additional context: https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/art/current/msg= 00571.html ] From: John R. Levine Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2018 10:33 PM To: Peter Occil Cc: Murray Kucherawy; ben@nostrum.com; Alexey Melnikov; adam@nostrum.com; a= rt@ietf.org Subject: RE: [art] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7601 (5435) > And also, the erratum I submitted can be correct for handling certain=20 > parsers that skip the CFWS in the =E2=80=9Cpvalue=E2=80=9D, set the point= er to after the=20 > CFWS (if any), and move on to parsing the next =E2=80=9CCFWS propspec=E2= =80=9D within=20 > the (current) =E2=80=9Cresinfo=E2=80=9D production (in other words, the p= arser does=20 > =E2=80=9Cgreedy=E2=80=9D matching). ABNF doesn't have to be LL(k) or LR(k), so greedy parsers won't work, at=20 least not without rewriting the rules to factor out ambiguities. Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummi= es", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly --_3DC1092F-2F87-4954-8E0F-FBB2D9E9FFD2_ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"

 

You have pointed to an unexpected weakness of ABNF.=C2=A0 As a result= , it's unfortunate that many ABNF productions in RFCs can't generally be us= ed as is in order to build a parser, since ABNF itself has no strong concep= t of matching.=C2=A0

 

For example, RFC 5234 sec. 3.2 is silent on which order altern= ative productions are to be matched (although this silence can be useful, I= admit, in order for the incremental alternatives feature, sec. 3.3, to wor= k).=C2=A0 The production "received-token" in RFC 5322 is illustra= tive:

 

=C2= =A0=C2=A0 received-token=C2=A0 =3D=C2=A0=C2=A0 word / angle-addr / addr-spe= c / domain

 

Both "word" and "domain" include the production "= ;atom".=C2=A0 Thus, whether a received-token parser parses an "at= om" as a "word" or as a "domain" depends on the co= ntext in which the "atom" appears, the kind of parser (greedy or = not), or whether earlier alternatives take precedence over latter alternati= ves or vice versa, none of which is defined in RFC 5234. "Obviously&qu= ot;, if the "atom" is part of a domain, then the received-token s= hould be the whole "domain" regardless of the details just mentio= ned.

 

[ Ad= ditional context: https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/art/current/msg005= 71.html ]

 

From: John R. Levine
Se= nt: Sunday, July 22, 2018 10:33 PM
To: Peter Occil
Cc: Murray Kucherawy; ben@nost= rum.com; Alexey Melnikov;= adam@nostrum.com; art@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [art] [Technical Er= rata Reported] RFC7601 (5435)

 

> And also, the erratum I submitted can be co= rrect for handling certain

> parsers that skip = the CFWS in the =E2=80=9Cpvalue=E2=80=9D, set the pointer to after the

=

> CFWS (if any), and move on to parsing the next = =E2=80=9CCFWS propspec=E2=80=9D within

> the (c= urrent) =E2=80=9Cresinfo=E2=80=9D production (in other words, the parser do= es

> =E2=80=9Cgreedy=E2=80=9D matching).

 

ABNF doesn't ha= ve to be LL(k) or LR(k), so greedy parsers won't work, at

least not without rewriting the rules to factor out ambiguities.

 

Regards,

John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of &= quot;The Internet for Dummies",

Please conside= r the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

 

= --_3DC1092F-2F87-4954-8E0F-FBB2D9E9FFD2_-- From nobody Mon Jul 23 05:41:50 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FB13130DED; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 05:41:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id grP2zO5_UKcr; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 05:41:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A36C6130DE1; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 05:41:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.38] ([217.91.35.233]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx003 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0Lfjxq-1gNq0d12yo-00pJu8; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 14:41:41 +0200 To: Mary Barnes , IETF ART Mailing List Cc: Barry Leiba , draft-ietf-dispatch-javascript-mjs@ietf.org References: From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 14:41:40 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:6oUhrH3dt6NIRFfYNIzRLeVGgoMsnn6S1oO2lMAmtMK+5YBTwBS JSUfGUpzBv0wkY57AwCQL/n39kHrhO0a2IHtt6CmNLkrpYzM+bdH9dZjbQOjjCRoQiubGJG bnVyx9INzoTw8FwNW+15PvEN1n735608ILfGRhZouW8K+NqUv8EB4V1OOc0fNBEZo6gsHmO d7B72ka3UuWgFeuMywaoQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:ttYUU8hB7y4=:IrPhEZATmpv5oGlMmSsrAR h3EGRq0I1iVFFChdxK8x1gViMIRjvOWbh/2/ctcf6DvI/o+IVMqHwcplfIjOsFN6Di/c1ChAV Q2O9YjL9z0UUXTUB2OgmDjMEwGCqkLpF8/654lhbXK7iGJszqPviGVtxUxf7XCUX3cXvVEv9T 6LcXL3IvNG1Qb7V7JiKLlcMg2emRHDBzr07drnRPrqM8vxAIRTl5WeJ6PqJjIW9ePyXZNYTyW 0BERuPIV6F72e/mPWu4WbBntReGHAy9idKQ+VDacvuP9Ch9MPtRPcNkTCTZRSSqnK5SnU0Zz4 4ELicSmm+dGJ/jE2KtwiLw2s22Q7jOrd9kVD/39//YeUXxRmAFsCUUwdyV49waauRpSYGe4U1 ATLSycVAcdy9QQDXsgMVNX8pQGBtMRuo+TriPgsio+KB30Lu5UmltBd8UjGB/oGnajMmKCb+y n6Gs6I0RGdCgB0c8/SbHk9yBws08KhRyw5GD5GR8D2azB77wTkl89d6xgYiiG2EVQrMsBszJZ UIfZ79rDvS6saHQ+QD2Nei0k7JOMaS5BcGLCsw2G9teneMRSZTDQiFGi9cp8JYiifCWLwlKCY oJL8zPhH+ZIa9oEbVwkIcF8u1GGSH7DtpwOC2+XPbNrHJOuC4yXiAthuuYyjXnmjtEW3thMnP A6ejGBf0qAqEL2+8gxgSU6twm0IqcXlT2RO334qrd7E51KUMPz7B5of7fw0ET7qvd1thOTnYM 9o/PB7BXBJa9RdoCAjX7q6zexevZLbPswXv9e0WamtJwpRk9Lj54zSeidrmmO/kU//1BxeCzM HMFOCcX Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Fwd: WGLC: draft-ietf-dispatch-javascript-mjs-02.txt X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 12:41:49 -0000 On 2018-07-10 20:16, Mary Barnes wrote: > Since not everyone is on the DISPATCH WG mailing list, I'm forwarding > this here. > ... Two thoughts: 1) we have a 21 page spec that *updates*, not *obsoletes* a 13 page spec - can we please get a stand-alone spec obsoleting the old spec instead? 2) for all the legacy type registrations, it would be *much* better to have a table that lists the differences between these, and just a single template for the common parts. Best regards, Julian From nobody Mon Jul 23 07:49:17 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 912E0130ED1 for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 07:49:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lkDFp0CJFxLV for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 07:49:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BC5C5130EAC for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 07:49:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 62595 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2018 14:49:03 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; s=f47e.5b55eadf.k1807; bh=XgqpFLCcIYAheZ4rLtues9sdaA6JLs52H3UWk0nD8oY=; b=eP089XlfPBPQPtYB3tRvyrMPAHbaADGkbbCglhi/OL2Lk2Xw394GHFjjLgfLrJ2zbkP49o/hQ1oVwNspjqrZpzrrDA8qWEC1mjMPGvwsNBXr6S+F1J/lbZkX6Q9XjDWvJmMovUUMV/sEVkpFo5GwddEN8O84DzGV/Z27G+Ms3u+L11MZRcssymC9k2bPSQG5RBaaegKqlHBBeL2BQoynHjAsbZSBxt64TQhmIlrmxIvpI8b9/W3nMTtETBf1Cy6S Received: from localhost ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2/X.509/AEAD) via TCP6; 23 Jul 2018 14:49:02 -0000 Date: 23 Jul 2018 10:49:02 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R. Levine" To: "Peter Occil" Cc: "abnf-discuss@ietf.org" , "Murray Kucherawy" , "ben@nostrum.com" , "Alexey Melnikov" , "adam@nostrum.com" , "art@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <5b55c7e3.1c69fb81.10c36.95dc@mx.google.com> References: <20180723000558.CD758B80F99@rfc-editor.org> <5b5539e6.1c69fb81.b4b6d.5477@mx.google.com> <5b55c7e3.1c69fb81.10c36.95dc@mx.google.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.21 (OSX 202 2017-01-01) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7601 (5435) X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 14:49:15 -0000 On Mon, 23 Jul 2018, Peter Occil wrote: > You have pointed to an unexpected weakness of ABNF. As a result, it's > unfortunate that many ABNF productions in RFCs can't generally be used > as is in order to build a parser, since ABNF itself has no strong > concept of matching. Of course they can, if you have adequate parser tools. I shamelessly recomemnd "flex & bison", published by O'Reilly. See the discussion of GLR parsers on pages 230-231. Personally I'd refactor them to LL(1) or LR(1) but tastes differ. More to the point, the IETF has used ABNF in its current form for over 20 years, and it's not going to change now. Its purpose is to specify valid syntax, even if the grammar parses that syntax ambiguously. So please do send errata like the one on Received-SPF, where the ABNF didn't match the actual syntax, but if it's correct but ambiguous, that's not a bug. Also, having written my share of compilers (try fitting a Fortran-77 front end into 48Kb on a PDP-11) I can assure you that I never was able to build a parser from an unmodified reference grammar. You always need to refactor it. > For example, RFC 5234 sec. 3.2 is silent on which order alternative productions are to be matched (although this silence can be useful, I admit, in order for the incremental alternatives feature, sec. 3.3, to work). The production "received-token" in RFC 5322 is illustrative: > > received-token = word / angle-addr / addr-spec / domain > > Both "word" and "domain" include the production "atom". Thus, whether a received-token parser parses an "atom" as a "word" or as a "domain" depends on the context in which the "atom" appears, the kind of parser (greedy or not), or whether earlier alternatives take precedence over latter alternatives or vice versa, none of which is defined in RFC 5234. "Obviously", if the "atom" is part of a domain, then the received-token should be the whole "domain" regardless of the details just mentioned. R's, John From nobody Mon Jul 23 08:41:16 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17A7A130F20; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 08:41:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p171mNMs78RS; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 08:41:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl0-x233.google.com (mail-pl0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CFB9D130EE8; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 08:41:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl0-x233.google.com with SMTP id t17-v6so380257ply.13; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 08:41:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=d4xs3pzjo6kaNBId5288h+mKTB3QbOXoHBUm3y8eLzM=; b=qnTyz6xWTQ7kuNBLV5tXDH/9HoabjzBSBczi9IaS4MX7u+COZol7FziJbtzAoXjoSp JPb5TGgPt+peuWKIoey/y3Cx79ChyGfqh8dRa1/wu096X+2lJvnvYdByaZVoR/snd5an xqbk7+CZdPodtjWuEI5WBA4O1JIW19erBiEeNGY531YzWnkgzm6K1hI18v9S9Xl/v8hb TyfYV56C78oB55m7mfeXbjo9rRFLV1kAJe/J9gn+0F6ykSgo/V0/KgIqCIhEa9/P/4lU 0Glb0shU9CZ8Dei1ojSxN0ovBHT/4N+0K4D/8+jNDcTBpgCm6COLIespuzU1fLDnCKlZ QQdw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=d4xs3pzjo6kaNBId5288h+mKTB3QbOXoHBUm3y8eLzM=; b=euDWyN9H5COLTQhwMghp7vo5RgDHtAs9xFdTjPnbAi5nBfCut4rJ4nNJbf8t5o23Ge xP9hPeycX2VCNLhqs3Kt6mHyYi0sLXFy4XCBJuVbKiaKXqBjUUwVGdxhHcZXYxruxs80 d/ws8mWDZfsnT/OCGFkF/ic+h7JtFRpVmNSynqMZ0OCs0vvUzWlqNaNgkggZRjcVUZCE hp6ttJQb9ptbUnnP/1X5n3iiSZjN9CTGZUXvGNwkTOsQ/TmDe5XqqdqplnIsHj/8SFYj DlEIGnKb1WEZ3eqdZjUeL2rLO1MAwL89T7VJjK/1ejkPpSE71LalQfAXkVuRDsO7yeaZ vJag== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlFsWNNn4QQK5sQYYWOpyxY31dP9OsWzkEsUoXCxhk9wYAFTCMu6 jPjc9EAWEUTYHzXLkTq/TRQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpcWfhJ2Z6YU1a+CPmFrDiHHrqguBygpEXERGYmzL4WqHXobuaAgFmEucwGFTxektzqUDX5eYw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:1101:: with SMTP id d1-v6mr13159051pla.147.1532360463331; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 08:41:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.168] (76-218-8-128.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net. [76.218.8.128]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v17-v6sm12827334pfn.177.2018.07.23.08.41.00 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 23 Jul 2018 08:41:01 -0700 (PDT) To: "John R. Levine" , Peter Occil Cc: "ben@nostrum.com" , "adam@nostrum.com" , Alexey Melnikov , "art@ietf.org" , "abnf-discuss@ietf.org" , Murray Kucherawy References: <20180723000558.CD758B80F99@rfc-editor.org> <5b5539e6.1c69fb81.b4b6d.5477@mx.google.com> <5b55c7e3.1c69fb81.10c36.95dc@mx.google.com> From: Dave Crocker Message-ID: <3711733f-7b52-b45e-65f4-78c1e108a59b@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 08:40:59 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [abnf-discuss] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7601 (5435) X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 15:41:12 -0000 On 7/23/2018 7:49 AM, John R. Levine wrote: > More to the point, the IETF has used ABNF in its current form for over > 20 years, 41 years. The changes made in the document since ABNF's inception in 1977 -- as part of RFC 733 -- are helpful but not fundamental. And I'll take this opportunity to cite an error in credit I've been making over the years... Within the set of RFC 733 authors, I was the newbie with no formal training and wound up as editor of the document. I spent an afternoon in a technical bookstore, getting a little background on parsers. There were lots of specifications being written in those days that did variants of BNF; ours was merely one more. I remember being concerned that we hit a good balance between features (complexity) and utility (usability). And I remember worrying quite a bit about the formatting of the ABNF, since that affects comprehension. (I was, at the time, in a nascent Human-Computer Interaction graduate program.) What I didn't remember until reviewing the Introduction to RFC 733, recently, is that the core credit for creating ABNF goes to Ken Harrenstein. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Mon Jul 23 12:19:38 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5078130E8E; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 12:19:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kb_smzFgbPPK; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 12:19:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4573D12F1A6; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 12:19:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::b]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w6NJJJ2b017510; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 21:19:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.114] (p54A6C84F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.166.200.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 41ZBBH0hlfzDXJX; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 21:19:19 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <5b55c7e3.1c69fb81.10c36.95dc@mx.google.com> Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 21:19:18 +0200 Cc: "John R. Levine" , "abnf-discuss@ietf.org" , "adam@nostrum.com" , "ben@nostrum.com" , "art@ietf.org" , Murray Kucherawy , Alexey Melnikov X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 554066356.02133-dd21c71a953ad4eb3de85c6d922fd0eb Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2F8E9F6E-E4CD-4307-A14A-2FCED18E0556@tzi.org> References: <20180723000558.CD758B80F99@rfc-editor.org> <5b5539e6.1c69fb81.b4b6d.5477@mx.google.com> <5b55c7e3.1c69fb81.10c36.95dc@mx.google.com> To: Peter Occil X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: [art] BNFs and determinism (Re: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7601 (5435)) X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 19:19:38 -0000 On Jul 23, 2018, at 14:19, Peter Occil wrote: >=20 > Thus, whether a received-token parser parses an "atom" as a "word" or = as a "domain" depends on the context in which the "atom" appears, Hi Peter, actually, this is not how BNF traditionally works. BNF is a productive grammar that produces a language. It doesn=E2=80=99t tell you how to =E2=80=9Cparse=E2=80=9D, i.e., assign = rules to sections of the strings that make up the language. E.g., Foo =3D Bar / Baz Bar =3D =E2=80=9Cabc=E2=80=9D Baz =3D =E2=80=9Cab=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9Cc=E2=80=9D is perfectly fine as BNF (here in ABNF form modulo the smartquotes) and = takes no position on whether =E2=80=9Cabc=E2=80=9D is a Bar or a Baz; it = is certainly part of the language (as is =E2=80=9CaBc=E2=80=9D but that = is a different story). Clearly, parser generators do generate =E2=80=9Cparsers" that do want to = know, so they are happier if the decision can be made. When writing software based on ABNF, I generally prefer to use PEG = (parse expression grammar) parsers instead of traditional BNF-based = parser generators; this sometimes means I have to massage the ABNF = slightly. I also try to deliver my ABNF in PEG-friendly form. But none = of that is supported by RFC 5234 (STD 68). CDDL (the ABNF derivative for CBOR and JSON) does prefer a clear = assignment of specific rules to a subtree of the data model item tree; = we are using PEG semantics for this. BTW, the first RFC to use BNF (without actually using that word) was RFC = 5 of June 2, l969 [sic!]; this wasn=E2=80=99t Ken L. Harrenstien's = version of BNF but already somewhat close. Prepare for the =E2=80=9CBNF = in RFCs=E2=80=9D fiftieth anniversary in 10.5 months=E2=80=A6 Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Jul 23 19:36:40 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46FE9130FAE for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 19:36:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.685 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.685 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Etz6gGoFQOjL for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 19:36:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resqmta-ch2-05v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-ch2-05v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:37]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 26405130F99 for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 19:36:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resomta-ch2-15v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.111]) by resqmta-ch2-05v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTP id hn3CfCpkC55XdhnBif4fN5; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 02:36:34 +0000 Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com ([IPv6:2601:192:4603:9471:222:fbff:fe91:d396]) by resomta-ch2-15v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTPA id hnBff6FLoMxsehnBffSJi8; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 02:36:33 +0000 Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com (hobgoblin.ariadne.com [127.0.0.1]) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id w6O2aVGo009294; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 22:36:31 -0400 Received: (from worley@localhost) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7/Submit) id w6O2aT41009282; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 22:36:29 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: hobgoblin.ariadne.com: worley set sender to worley@alum.mit.edu using -f From: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) To: RFC Errata System Cc: superuser@gmail.com, ben@nostrum.com, aamelnikov@fastmail.fm, adam@nostrum.com, superuser@gmail.com, poccil14@gmail.com, art@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org In-Reply-To: <20180723000558.CD758B80F99@rfc-editor.org> Sender: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 22:36:29 -0400 Message-ID: <87lga1pdg2.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfDK91+wG09UXpT0lPNT/Ngx8RsvXFFkX+W7DrW2n05SAZUKj248c5hboy5nZNNtcApgYAqYzzwrjO5w0Ceg8zcCQShsX2bknmUmlSgiNzoEynXZDdPKl xSfwIA9wg73+bSQHPSFjLcd7smfDq8xQ9IuZp0ZElqhsynyIK3eeMOVe/TiTRWyEVHESjAe2Umg0yGDp0NzWEX3auWMMK1Ei6WabR+2cRo/cwBc/oR3u9K4v yLu5y/UQIvgQGSwcMhjHkxfqNpD/rouWGRlH0ZwIN5eAA8HiM/4bL90ukFMfzQttjUtx8eTWF/10wLoKFvOvcG2i2uwbRmM/6YyftU4uCOrrsg8aLE19+yQt 1qLw4aqHEFN0QwvxMGij5PK4wMmGDom0cW7BS8vCzV/4FWBnxwkRk483msX14LCck/ncQljv Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7601 (5435) X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 02:36:39 -0000 I think that the erratum is, strictly speaking, incorrect. I've not worked through examples in detail, but you can see that each propspec contains exactly one "=" (other than in certain quoted contexts), which makes it unlikely that two successive propspecs could be parsed as a single propspec. If there really is an ambiguity, the way to demonstrate it is to provide an example. What is true is that the ABNF doesn't uniquely parse CFWS between propspec's; some CFWS can be parsed as part of the resinfo production or as part of the propspec production. But nobody cares about that, i.e., those alternative parsings are (unspokenly) "semantically equivalent". Someone else comments that ABNF, strictly speaking, isn't a specification for parsing but rather a specification for *generating*. But in actual use (running code?), that's not quite right either. The implicit assertion is that the ABNF shows permissible ways to parse the strings (of necessity, strings that can be generated by the ABNF), and that any ambiguities in parsing are either (1) explicitly dealt with by the surrounding text, or (2) the differences between the parse trees are "not significant" under the semantics that the text endows the parse trees. Dale From nobody Mon Jul 23 23:01:37 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26F59130E5B for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 23:01:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.663 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.663 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.5, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=1.164, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=explodingmoon.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eoeaFtfYpbUl for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 23:01:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy3-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy3-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.30.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 42537130E4F for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 23:01:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmgw11.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.11]) by gproxy3.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EC1F40C8E for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 23:39:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from box439.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.239]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id hq3CfZh0xd20Thq3Cfd0pZ; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 23:39:58 -0600 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=explodingmoon.org; s=default; h=MIME-Version:Content-Type:Subject:To:From: Message-ID:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=TVsaXiQARcHak3eyoe3IS1cMf8UzHiZf7/B4DY8tXd8=; b=aHu5wq2CGBA3oGBoRNz1KubQhA hMkk9160x/78APGZ4JLCNjrofsZwBcnndkpy1r0fu5WPIwWiI6xs2NncdlXd0ErkXPis588QDbyfQ 3yM+36CrimHi4DH8QcVjaztCG8d28Zo7VBIj7ntfU5QJLCKnzvq7350ZIA3mfqXyCrCZpkylVK9Vt WVB2sx+NNCGgQALoZevNNoKJ6N/XSErj4HX9FdKiBWhMGZQ63naFMieDlPItUcFRGNlpC8IowNKli pBdvBNo4kQpxccyDJJYIv4s69ZVPF8LqBU+anjSHJ2U8CPAb+DrqkKo8uGFk/JdoorlzH27GDccuZ WznIAnMQ==; Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=44273 helo=box439.bluehost.com) by box439.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1fhq3B-002Qoa-7J; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 23:39:57 -0600 Received: from 112.133.229.115 ([112.133.229.115]) by box439.bluehost.com (Horde Framework) with HTTPS; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 23:39:56 -0600 Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 23:39:56 -0600 Message-ID: <20180723233956.Horde.VwDA13cFKL-tX28ssXrKSlg@box439.bluehost.com> From: pradeep@explodingmoon.org To: valdis.kletnieks@vt.edu, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-action@ietf.org, art@ietf.org User-Agent: Horde Application Framework 5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; DelSp=Yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box439.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explodingmoon.org X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Source-L: Yes X-Exim-ID: 1fhq3B-002Qoa-7J X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: (box439.bluehost.com) [127.0.0.1]:44273 X-Source-Auth: pradeep@explodingmoon.org X-Email-Count: 36 X-Source-Cap: ZXhwbG9kaTQ7ZXhwbG9kaTQ7Ym94NDM5LmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Org: HG=bhcustomer;ORG=bluehost; X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: [art] Fwd: Please approve a mailing list or inform me how to Create a mailing list for discussing these projects X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 06:01:35 -0000 There are two mistakes in this email i send, i have no idea whether its my fast typing or error introduced by my ISP or service provider delivering my emails. I typed intelligence or artificial intelligence The spammers email who extorted 850 dollars from me in 2015 and that resulted me cashless and harmed by my relatives in palakkad for six months and resulting deactivation of my website and loss of my postings for years i typed efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com I have proposed an email whois draft to control spam and cybercrime using emails. A new version of I-D, draft-emailwhois-pradeepkumarxplorer-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Pradeep Kumar Xplorer and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-emailwhois-pradeepkumarxplorer Revision: 00 Title: Extensions to WHois service to allow query on email identities Document date: 2018-07-24 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 4 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-emailwhois-pradeepkumarxplorer-00.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-emailwhois-pradeepkumarxplorer/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-emailwhois-pradeepkumarxplorer-00 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-emailwhois-pradeepkumarxplorer Abstract: This document describes the need for a WHois email address service similar to the internet domainname WHois service. Theres a need for a registered email address as opposed to non-registered email address to fight internet SPAM, as well as encouraging email use for personal, commercial and legal and all kinds of purposes.An internet user can have multiple email identities. I need professional service from ISP and cannot dispute with them at the risk of losing my emails. Pradeep Kumar XPlorer ----- Forwarded message from pradeep@explodingmoon.org ----- Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 07:12:50 -0600 From: pradeep@explodingmoon.org Subject: Re: Please approve a mailing list or inform me how to Create a mailing list for discussing these projects To: valdis.kletnieks@vt.edu, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-action@ietf.org Quick reply Please see http://www.pradeepkumarxplorer.com/YogaSequence.txt. Its what i as a blogger typed in. I tried to Create an HTML and stopped because of some mistakes half way through as it was tiring and time consuming to search and markup. Even using browser extensions, Creating an HTML out of this manually can take enough time to be discouraged. I am saying i want what can be computationally done at the server side done at the server side. If intelligent software has already been Created as browser extension, then it has to be available reused in the server side. Quoting valdis.kletnieks@vt.edu: > On Sat, 21 Jul 2018 07:13:42 -0600, pradeep@explodingmoon.org said: > >> What i proposed is when user types httpi://www.pradeepkumarxplorer.com >> the information served by pradeepkumarxplorer.com httpd tunnels >> through another >> httpi that could be any solution server side scripting that shows the >> viewer of the information with additional links suggested by the WWW >> Brain. > > 1) No definition of "WWW Brain". I dont accept your answer. WWW and software has evolved with Artificial intelligence big companies like google use Artificial intelligence. I would say i dont have to define it for engineers. Its Intelligence of Artificial intelligence i am meaning. You have to answer me as a WWW user and not just an engineer. > 2) If anything, the Web is already *full* of "You may also like..." links > added by the server side. Quite obviously: > 2a) they don't need an httpi:// to insert them > 2b) they aren't very expensive to insert > 2c) There's browser extensions to *remove* these > 3) Therefor, the proper place for adding "additional links" is > obviously at the > user browser end - and there's extensions that will do this sort of thing > without need of an 'httpi://' protocol definition This is like saying to buy whats needed for my home, i have to enter five markets instead of one supermarket. WHo enforces that one Supermarket has soy milk, orange juice, cornflakes, cheese and eggs. If i have to visit more than one more market to satisfy my shopping needs, then its inefficient. I as a WIndows Personal computer android user have supported the companies that manufacture and market them so i have a right to demand that they ship efficient solutions and httpi is more efficient than browser extensions.Does IETF enforce any such, then they have to enforce this implementation and all httpd services tunnel through httpi. > > If these additional hyperlinks are something that's to be under user control, > it's a matter for the browser creators to add a configuration options or > way for an extension to interact and do the searching. And that will > be different > for Chrome, or Firefox, or Edge, or a MacOS or iOS browser and thus > not an IETF issue. The User can always search more, if intelligent profiling can show me what i want in the first place, then its a better user experience. > > For a worked example: > > https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/highlight-to-search/floipahigmmkfhkoapmnijnlnboniglg?hl=en > > Highlight the text on the page, and it will go a Google search for > more info. No httpi:// needed. > > You'll have to explain what problem you're trying to solve that isn't > already solved. In addition, you need to explain why a new on-the-network > protocol (which is what the IETF does) is needed, when it's already been > demonstrated to be doable without any new protocols or anything else > that is done by the IETF. Again, its the same market / supermarket analogy. If i have to enter five different markets to purchase my eggs, cheese, coffee, soy milk and chocolate then it solves the problem but in a dump and inefficient way. > >> This saves thousands of hours and possibly millions of dollars for >> website Creators from manually hypertexting their files using whatever >> tools like Hypothesiser or many browser extensions available. > > Not really. A site that insists on adding their own links will still > add their > own links, no matter what the user signals. Remember - if your "www brain" > extension is able to find keywords in the page and add additional links, > the web server can *also* do the same thing without an httpi:// - and so > can the user's browser (and probably better, because the user's browser > can query a site like Google that can make better suggestions because it > knows what previous queries the user has done...) Yes, but this is for websites that dont add their links. This is consolidation of intelligent searches in one place httpid or httpd tunneling through httpi. > >> WHat i proposed in my second draft is a switch on the server side that >> prevents an unauthenticated user from seeing any information and >> authentication means > > First off, if it's a switch on the server side, it's a server > configuration issue, > not an IETF issue. The way to specify that switch, and how it works, will > be different for Apache, or ngnix, or IIS, or Squid, or anything else that > is functioning as a web server or proxy. No its not configuration issue. I want it enforced that WWW servers are mandated to have the option of allowing only authenticated users to be served information. I am saying Solaris should not be allowed to ship if it does not have that Option.I am a website publisher for last 14 years and till todate i dont know who views my website and they are exploiting me and have harmed me and trying to kill me to exploit the WWW subscriber help. This is insider fraud by companies like facebook. I have Created something unique and definitely usable by millions. If you look at my facebook page http://www.facebook.com/lugimwidnaus only one likes it but i have had thousands of viewers http://www.pradeepkumarxplorer.com/2016/regions.txt. Its a misreprsentation by organised crime. ANd i have had no solution from cyberauthorities who might have tools to find out who is accessing my website as they are partner to it for money. I dont need that headache if i can enforce it using my WWW server. I used shared hosting and its something my ISP has to provide in control panel. This enforcement is to fight cybercrime.And that IETF should take a serious role in. If not which organisation can i propose projects to. Why is facebook and google 500 Billion dollar companies and me not being able to get even a single email from a viewer or subscriber help and have no income and has to depend on a mother at the age of 48. I am Ubermens and an Ex SUN employee. This is serious crime that has destroyed my life.I am saying facebook and google cannot do whatever they want. My Ex company seeded Google. I have no income from them nor Options enough to publish and not care about subscriber help given to me while i was employed in SUN. Someone is claiming i am wealthy and continuing the theft and now they want to get away with it and they would influence IETF not to approve my draft. They have attacked me using my mother and her relatives in palakkad who are not my society as an adult. I should be in New age california with yogins and softwares.Instead i am stuck in palakkad ,only information about me is in my own website and i cannot hold accountable who has enjoyed my website guidance and journals.The viewers are not putting links in their website about my website. I am operating publsihing my website as an individual and a clever harmful community is claiming it as their creation and exploiting me.IETF did not accept my whois email proposal either. IETF is a place where engineers from many companies work together to comeup with usable safe efficient internet. They have not delivered a SafE internet. > > And the user *SHOULD NOT* (in the RFC sense) be specifying information > to override the server's decision. > > Again - there's absolutely nothing stopping the server from doing > whatever sort > of authentication it wants to, and there's no need for IETF action. IETF has to enforce either only authenticated users access WWW or allow a choice of both anonymous and authenticated. I have no problems with private surfing but it should be the choice of the publisher and not the browser. > Webservers > can already do sufficient authentication - and a case can be made > that it's not > the IETF's job to specify that authentication. > > The short summary - you're not going to get an IETF list to discuss either > draft until such time as you show that it's something that is an > IETF issue to > deal with. And given that both drafts address things that have already been > done without any IETF action, it's unlikely you'll be able to show that the > IETF needs to do anything. I am saying IETF should enforce companies to role out products that prevent cybercrime. efcc.nigeria.org@representative among three more emails have spammed me and extorted money from me and had me almost killed me and destroyed my website. They are funded by the anonymous criminals viewing my website and has taken the money from viewers who can pay or from companies that i have been involved in the past. I would say a WHOIS email registry implemented and EMail services only forwarding emails from authenticated users would have prevented me recieving such SPAMs. I dont get SPAMMED in pradeep@dhyanayoga.info or pradeepkumarxplorer@pradeepkumarxplorer.com, if they are not SPAM the clever thieves has made me work 14 years and extorted few billions dollars of cash and now they want me to die in India.An email registry and modifications to email software can definitely prevent SPAM and that i think an organisation like IETF should enforce. > >> but someone from ietf.org has deleted my email pradeep@explodingmoon.org and >> i had to use my other email pradeepan88@hotmail.com. There's no way >> to say in >> internet that pradeep@explodingmoon.org and pradeepan88@hotmail.com are the >> same individual thats me > > 1) The deletion may be a hint that somebody at the IETF doesn't want > to hear from > you because your mails aren't related to the IETF. > > Pradeep Kumar Xplorer ----- End forwarded message ----- From nobody Mon Jul 23 23:08:33 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81D63131029 for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 23:08:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.559 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.559 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[ADVANCE_FEE_3_NEW_MONEY=0.816, BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, LOTS_OF_MONEY=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.5, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=1.164, SPF_PASS=-0.001, SUBJ_ALL_CAPS=1.506, URG_BIZ=0.573, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=explodingmoon.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YsxStB5VQwUd for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 23:08:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy1-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy1-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.25.95]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 98A08130F94 for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 23:08:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmgw15.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.15]) by gproxy1.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FFBE175FDF for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 00:08:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from box439.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.239]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id hqUnf1rkpj0sohqUnf85S9; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 00:08:29 -0600 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=explodingmoon.org; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version: Content-Type:Subject:To:From:Message-ID:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=X4I21Bs9jxobm63mnxUCo0tlFPDM0eALkXFiUQlb4PU=; b=Ejq8B7NDvYUjAAlb1kXrhhYlN9 HL32rt0sUTBgSPCsM6EWf3bwmK4OqgrVb39e6GB5LiSV9e/xTic4FiB/7jr/HzPPCo0SzEMPExHjk w8IPFZFOU5mLbb6hEKvIjKu+oTluI5pf3wtDFAXjB+9q9x9Cj7eRMT8V+ZyYyzv8toZbnhFnSGyH/ VcLy/hnkXgt0sryFUG7SVQ7bYyc6tn+29qZXMdZCxBLZmqeLngov7uNbmn0DtTqZIFmI99l0yffIh 4gMCGnTYMipShQcfwaEhpyykl4cFLognlxpH2M8B9gn21hdFas/4NyVPBgrOnaJw1ws/6bsLmFp6y s+2v+Q+Q==; Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=35567 helo=box439.bluehost.com) by box439.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1fhqUn-002gdn-4c for art@ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 00:08:29 -0600 Received: from 112.133.229.115 ([112.133.229.115]) by box439.bluehost.com (Horde Framework) with HTTPS; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 00:08:28 -0600 Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 00:08:28 -0600 Message-ID: <20180724000828.Horde.nLrUyPl7Z-zIBK1u8IFdbCA@box439.bluehost.com> From: pradeep@explodingmoon.org To: art@ietf.org User-Agent: Horde Application Framework 5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; DelSp=Yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box439.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explodingmoon.org X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Source-L: Yes X-Exim-ID: 1fhqUn-002gdn-4c X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: (box439.bluehost.com) [127.0.0.1]:35567 X-Source-Auth: pradeep@explodingmoon.org X-Email-Count: 1 X-Source-Cap: ZXhwbG9kaTQ7ZXhwbG9kaTQ7Ym94NDM5LmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: [art] Fwd: YAHOO TEAM: OUR CLARIFICATION, YOUR URGENT RESPONSE IS NEEDED X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 06:08:32 -0000 A new version of I-D, draft-emailwhois-pradeepkumarxplorer-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Pradeep Kumar Xplorer and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-emailwhois-pradeepkumarxplorer Revision: 00 Title: Extensions to WHois service to allow query on email identities Document date: 2018-07-24 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 4 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-emailwhois-pradeepkumarxplorer-00.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-emailwhois-pradeepkumarxplorer/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-emailwhois-pradeepkumarxplorer-00 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-emailwhois-pradeepkumarxplorer I am pasting text that has email of a spammer that along with smithisua@yahoo.co.jp two emails used to distract me by emails to pradeep@explodingmoon.org. This is continuing crime using my domains and i need a resolution by implementing a secure email system by having email addresses authenticated at the recieving end. In addition rhossorsimon01@yahoo.com should not be allowed to use internet and the money extorted returned. Otherwise someone else is claiming the 5 million send to me by smithisua@yahoo.co.jp and 950000 US dollars send by rhossorsimon01@yahoo.com and thats serious crime using my website. Abstract: This document describes the need for a WHois email address service similar to the internet domainname WHois service. Theres a need for a registered email address as opposed to non-registered email address to fight internet SPAM, as well as encouraging email use for personal, commercial and legal and all kinds of purposes.An internet user can have multiple email identities. ----- Forwarded message from pradeep xplorer ----- Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 06:00:19 +0000 From: pradeep xplorer Subject: Fw: YAHOO TEAM: OUR CLARIFICATION, YOUR URGENT RESPONSE IS NEEDED To: pradeep@explodingmoon.org ________________________________________ From: pradeep@explodingmoon.org Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2018 6:12 PM To: customerservice@westernunion.com Subject: Fwd: YAHOO TEAM: OUR CLARIFICATION, YOUR URGENT RESPONSE IS NEEDED This is a message possibly SPAM that led to me losing money and i did not recieve the money in kasikorn bank. On Feb 2013 from bangalore i contacted Merryl lynch and requested them to help me by raising cash using my website and a message that 5 million uS dollars has been deposited into Kcyberid account atmcard803 was recieved in this inbox. I was subsequently brutally attacked in Puttaparti Hanuman cafe, i had boxers eye for few weeks. My mother arranged me 300000Rs. If i dont get these SPAM, i would have visited California to resolve pending issues or reemployment in software. I am saying western union is not doing anything about this. This is someone in South Africa that resulted in me overstaying in Thailand and staying in Immigration detention because of airticket expiring. Despite reports to FBI/Interpol i have no solution i still continue to recieve SPAM like email just to this email. I dont get it in pradeep@dhyanayoga.info or pradeepkumarxplorer@pradeepkumarxplorer.com it has something to do with misuse and misinterpretation of the .org domain i am using.I was given airline tickets and some cash by Boss apparels who had in their pictures a look alike of Jayakumar in palakkad who contacts my mother.This is their facebook page https://www.facebook.com/bossapparels This is the image.http://www.maccustomtailor.com/about-us.php The man in the first image right most is a look alike of jayakumar. Jayakumar is a son of a friend of my mother an intrusive disabled man who wants me to delete my website and did not help me in 2015 when i arrived in palakkad without cash to locate my mother. I am sure bossapparels is Created by the organisation exploiting me using my website and continuing this situation of dependency on a mother and poverty Pradeep Kumar Xplorer Please help solve this crime Pradeep Kumar Xplorer. ----- Forwarded message from pradeep xplorer ----- Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 12:25:52 +0000 From: pradeep xplorer Subject: Fw: YAHOO TEAM: OUR CLARIFICATION, YOUR URGENT RESPONSE IS NEEDED To: pradeep@explodingmoon.org ________________________________ > Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 02:12:54 -0600 > Subject: Re: YAHOO TEAM: OUR CLARIFICATION, YOUR URGENT RESPONSE IS NEEDED > From: pradeep@explodingmoon.org > To: rhossorsimon01@yahoo.com > CC: rhossorsimon01@yahoo.com; pradeepan88@hotmail.com; > pradeep@explodingmoon.org > > > Simon rhossor, > the answer is BURMESE CIGARS > Thanks > > > I have send 680 US dollars using Western Union. THE MTCN Is 041-957 8663 > > THERES A TEST QUESTION FOR GREENLEAF RISIMATI > > WHAT I SMOKED > > PLEASE CALL ME FOR THE ANSWER AND RECEIPT OF THIS EMAIL, SO I CAN BE SURE > > YOU RECIEVE THIS EMAIL. > > PRADEEP KUMAR XPLORER > > > > > > > > > > From the Desk of: > >> Mr. Simon Rhossor > >> Foreign Transfer > >> Manager & Notary Public > >> 1806 Crescent Housing > >> Complex > >> 114 Rivonia > >> Road, Sandton > >> City > >> Johannesburg1895, > >> Telephone: +27 73 747 > >> 7786 > >> Fax No: +27 86 659 > >> 2003 > >> Postal Address: P.O. > >> Box 48651 > >> Johannesburg, Republic of South > >> Africa. > >> .............................. > >> .............................. > >> > >> Attention: Mr. Pradeep > >> Kumar Xplorer > >> Dear Mr. Pradeep, > >> We received your mails and contents > >> very comprehensive and well noted. It is our pleasure to notify you of > >> our > >> dissatisfaction over your unnecessary demands and mistrust which you > >> have > >> shown > >> in this transaction of which is not in accordance with our company > >> policies. > >> We refused to allow a token fee of > >> US$680 (Six Hundred and Eighty Dollars) to drag this Agency high built > >> reputation to the mood hence we have decided to send a copy of Greenleaf > >> photo > >> to you in order to satisfy your curiosity. > >> > >> Finally you are welcome to South > >> Africa to process the required Legal Documents > >> by yourself if you don’t trust our Agency in representing you in this > >> transaction. > >> > >> Thanks for your good understanding and > >> co-operation while we wait for your call and urgent > >> response. > >> > >> Yours sincerely, > >> > >> MR. SIMON > >> RHOSSOR. > >> (YAHOO LOTTERY PROCESSING AND > >> TRANSFER MANAGER, ZONAL OFFICE SOUTH AFRICA) > > > > > > > > ----- End forwarded message ----- ----- End forwarded message ----- From nobody Mon Jul 23 23:21:18 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D03A130E68 for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 23:20:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.663 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.663 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.5, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=1.164, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=explodingmoon.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 80gJIu-YQTje for ; 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bh=0knqzU643DgPUEzqRY/5lQVwFw6kO4ob/iwKQfgLXE8=; b=WCho5GGsHqZc0V+vXHR084Gup KQCNUuHrw6isssFJPKkP0YPzlWPX0re8y7V7728lBK90eDDREF3WMaqqjyDeBFX6Us9LwBMNprAib /5Bo1kssIYTZgn/kKmaAp+QtguDALWTs07D6FF9PjvlQGT9rmnYZVqzA4MZHMVQGMqP+jtlAOH3fA TfnLblZ0MzaujGGdQjl9iGtUF59QveLgMv/7ehCjMGzbjKFKzXQDCx2kHbm6P2lAjvHQ87gkaIvFs unoYG0EYPCLrH+9x2QPEQFp7mXY1L0sqVDZxHGcNin8op3WWItxn4ppiyoS/2X2j5sBq8Wa92/hc8 suSFq8Aqg==; Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=53485 helo=box439.bluehost.com) by box439.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1fhqgn-002mnu-Un; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 00:20:53 -0600 Received: from 112.133.229.115 ([112.133.229.115]) by box439.bluehost.com (Horde Framework) with HTTPS; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 00:20:53 -0600 Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 00:20:53 -0600 Message-ID: <20180724002053.Horde.t0vFarI4lOPfFLqUuZOH6ZW@box439.bluehost.com> From: pradeep@explodingmoon.org To: valdis.kletnieks@vt.edu Cc: ietf@ietf.org, ietf-action@ietf.org, art@ietf.org References: <20180720235631.Horde.99rki6Z3lqDOOUpWm-upQ8f@box439.bluehost.com> <164401.1532164337@turing-police.cc.vt.edu> <20180721071342.Horde.Gwn3Nnn1846td9iO9Ak4SPj@box439.bluehost.com> <37710.1532216158@turing-police.cc.vt.edu> <20180723071250.Horde.obw0MRw9uWJh2iuOrapUVXC@box439.bluehost.com> <47204.1532384685@turing-police.cc.vt.edu> In-Reply-To: <47204.1532384685@turing-police.cc.vt.edu> User-Agent: Horde Application Framework 5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; DelSp=Yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box439.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explodingmoon.org X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Source-L: Yes X-Exim-ID: 1fhqgn-002mnu-Un X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: (box439.bluehost.com) [127.0.0.1]:53485 X-Source-Auth: pradeep@explodingmoon.org X-Email-Count: 19 X-Source-Cap: ZXhwbG9kaTQ7ZXhwbG9kaTQ7Ym94NDM5LmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Please approve a mailing list or inform me how to Create a mailing list for discussing these projects X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 06:20:57 -0000 Quoting valdis.kletnieks@vt.edu: > On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 07:12:50 -0600, you said: > >> Quoting valdis.kletnieks@vt.edu: >> >> > On Sat, 21 Jul 2018 07:13:42 -0600, pradeep@explodingmoon.org said: > >> > 1) No definition of "WWW Brain". >> I dont accept your answer. WWW and software has evolved with >> Artificial intelligence >> big companies like google use Artificial intelligence. > > And oddly enough, Google is able to use this AI without needing an > httpi://, and > browser extensions are able to do similar, also without needing an httpi:// > Which is why you need to explain exactly why the IETF should bother with > dealing with these drafts. IN ANDROID it takes more intelligence for a user and ability to make a phone call than a basic phone. You have to know how to use Android and tap on the phone app and then dial your number. Similarily httpi:// is a user interface switch that makes browsing more interesting. It is for this purpose of making WWW interesting google, facebook and twitter companies exist now. Are you asking me to write a detailed design at the project proposal stage?. > >> I >> would say i dont have to >> define it for engineers. Its Intelligence of Artificial >> intelligence i am meaning. >> You have to answer me as a WWW user and not just an engineer. > From nobody Tue Jul 24 04:54:19 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C0211310F6 for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 04:54:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.748 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.748 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hrv_279dw5ze for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 04:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-x236.google.com (mail-yw0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 064E91310F9 for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 04:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw0-x236.google.com with SMTP id j68-v6so1408520ywg.1 for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 04:54:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=message-id:mime-version:to:cc:from:subject:date:importance :in-reply-to:references; bh=66RpjA4+Mtj/QDQ1wTy2O5sL0fSH9lzr31GYyD2Fmwg=; b=iVNF0bAyeD8A47yLPjx3jSP0KEcJp8hh64oRm+f4ipaeF+c7lckGgx6UOoFXtQZshF 9fpai6SA87udROxLQzC99tnwoUEDozYEwuoXkvU8PbI5AGgaPdfejF8KTe98vaM0EVmf mGWpu9atYUTEiglEVoT8B1QXsjKfBGo3PklPENX+vJU9INcRx4KY3bjeXNZQO8kN/Eci lvhhJ766zgCNn8/s3aKwoWqrZCq3kqqGESDEGbSoEfKvDo99qxgv5TeVMes05D0EkcrY MAGusflqk2+iXFZzo6ScWmeJRK9JauQq+Pixs/2Z/I0pV0RwUAmfhj+Dw5jWyb7+XMtL DA9A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:mime-version:to:cc:from:subject:date :importance:in-reply-to:references; bh=66RpjA4+Mtj/QDQ1wTy2O5sL0fSH9lzr31GYyD2Fmwg=; b=ca/lphLikCfjS+qdx2j/T3hoHUf28M9gou0p0qtTZMG9B1Bd+S/s4oMZloaf8Fa8AY RQv4q9u/A+NRPUbWxNAqEI73Q1MN2raOW6CjVUbqS25h+j3CPuj/kmMurC81QVr+Vfjz bX7OqA0qOJbFCiKVb8gnPfjE6oKNLTpiaUIZoXRqlh39XdSwqj+lTE2oj9gP0J18oEyZ 9O2yapX2r6giH8jrv80gpLoRzcRQdGqZzMVaWyGv5qluxGs12ckq/5OBa1aKGDRJIvUu WGtJZqsBRmgZu/lntFftsoMAJbrtKjAwZeBwM9lboBDt3Zy9SXhELMp8LdBy+eShHUky lXEw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlGz4P9jU5YH+bf1W6FEdIDRyM1ws8m9cBuibFMMVO1BVxMVZbxX sytRJgify2BaqNw8R+u1Fj4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpfKfKPQTJ6VQR9Jz2CjfNGf5Xr1UvDH8bEN992GD9KmX5SifmzuEF6gbxS8ZIe1AudTlCKcQw== X-Received: by 2002:a81:9f8f:: with SMTP id w137-v6mr8491840ywg.157.1532433255133; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 04:54:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:192:4e00:596:22:8b71:4eb9:6006? ([2601:192:4e00:596:22:8b71:4eb9:6006]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o128-v6sm213708ywe.110.2018.07.24.04.54.13 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 24 Jul 2018 04:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5b571366.1c69fb81.96f7c.11c7@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Dale R. Worley" , RFC Errata System Cc: "ben@nostrum.com" , "adam@nostrum.com" , "aamelnikov@fastmail.fm" , "art@ietf.org" , "superuser@gmail.com" , "rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org" From: Peter Occil Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 07:54:17 -0400 Importance: normal X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <87lga1pdg2.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> References: <20180723000558.CD758B80F99@rfc-editor.org> <87lga1pdg2.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_AA774AF7-0F78-4291-9263-16759BD70AB8_" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7601 (5435) X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 11:54:18 -0000 --_AA774AF7-0F78-4291-9263-16759BD70AB8_ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" On further thought, it is indeed incorrect. Therefore, the errata submissi= on is withdrawn. --Peter From: Dale R. Worley Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 10:36 PM To: RFC Errata System Cc: poccil14@gmail.com; ben@nostrum.com; adam@nostrum.com; aamelnikov@fastm= ail.fm; art@ietf.org; superuser@gmail.com; rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Subject: Re: [art] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7601 (5435) I think that the erratum is, strictly speaking, incorrect. I've not worked through examples in detail, but you can see that each propspec contains exactly one "=3D" (other than in certain quoted contexts), which makes it unlikely that two successive propspecs could be parsed as a single propspec. If there really is an ambiguity, the way to demonstrate it is to provide an example. --_AA774AF7-0F78-4291-9263-16759BD70AB8_ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"

On further thought, it is indeed inc= orrect.=C2=A0 Therefore, the errata submission is withdrawn.

 

--Peter

 

 

From: Dale R. Wo= rley
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 10:36 PM
To: RFC Errata System
Cc: poccil14@gmail.com; ben@nostrum.com; adam@nostrum.com; aameln= ikov@fastmail.fm; art@ietf.org; superuser@gmail.com; rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org
Subject:= Re: [art] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7601 (5435)

 

I think that the err= atum is, strictly speaking, incorrect.=C2=A0 I've not

worked through examples in detail, but you can see that each propspec

contains exactly one "=3D" (other than in c= ertain quoted contexts), which

makes it unlikely th= at two successive propspecs could be parsed as a

si= ngle propspec.=C2=A0 If there really is an ambiguity, the way to

demonstrate it is to provide an example.

 

= --_AA774AF7-0F78-4291-9263-16759BD70AB8_-- From nobody Tue Jul 24 05:06:15 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E38F13112C for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 05:06:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.663 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.663 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.5, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=1.164, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=explodingmoon.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 91QYgKKL_7Fn for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 05:06:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy5-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy5-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [67.222.38.55]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BF328131103 for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 05:06:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmgw12.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.12]) by gproxy5.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C778140707 for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 06:06:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from box439.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.239]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id hw4pfwv4Tak7thw4pfg4Y4; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 06:06:04 -0600 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=explodingmoon.org; s=default; h=MIME-Version:Content-Type:Subject:To:From: Message-ID:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=WvEKqQf7NSdZHmBXZgEgbNdicQ5eUVhLDmb50I9CdPw=; b=hOfKMEuKCrymvUCRVDnvvHMPPy w5omCgkn3M+37K7W78Ed7hlyLcbeZtWj264h8sYwvmUu5htlaCSzeJbz7uqSZs85KaoyAqxd5yURR jfQsR6ievjZ4SFQbVfoyqHNOF/PA1lYzKUH0QFAAK/9qQXscOvCouJNtC7SkT2CQpu2ce2mOF7Z3V bN7eEOA7BXjYgIWq6G2xa9rhJ7G0sHPMXJ7ehV8vjTvOtZq8Y9wIJzH5xDKm2dmFyRQQ3RqzbNUnA jdRt02sz2sWxq0ej9bZvjuNu7YrcNjAbTzsahEhsLZIrd6BCMh5Gtz7PchrBbrZXmp2WTEjbHRwEH GGGkqmRw==; Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=22801 helo=box439.bluehost.com) by box439.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1fhw4p-001vKi-79; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 06:06:03 -0600 Received: from 112.133.229.115 ([112.133.229.115]) by box439.bluehost.com (Horde Framework) with HTTPS; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 06:06:02 -0600 Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 06:06:02 -0600 Message-ID: <20180724060602.Horde.IgIUhp4WmgBZ3GbcPyVdOal@box439.bluehost.com> From: pradeep@explodingmoon.org To: art@ietf.org User-Agent: Horde Application Framework 5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; DelSp=Yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box439.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explodingmoon.org X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Source-L: Yes X-Exim-ID: 1fhw4p-001vKi-79 X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: (box439.bluehost.com) [127.0.0.1]:22801 X-Source-Auth: pradeep@explodingmoon.org X-Email-Count: 18 X-Source-Cap: ZXhwbG9kaTQ7ZXhwbG9kaTQ7Ym94NDM5LmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: [art] Fwd: Please approve a mailing list or inform me how to Create a mailing list for discussing these projects X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 12:06:13 -0000 I have been requested by Mathew A Miller to post to this group. If you find any one interested in this projects in the various WWW companies or active WWW users please forward them this mailing list so they can involve in discussions Hello Pradeep, The best place to start discussion of your documents is the art@ietf.org mailing list, which is set aside for discussion Applications-level topic such as this; you can subscribe to that list at < https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art >. We also recommend you read the "The Tao of IETF" < https://www.ietf.org/about/participate/tao/ > to help you understand how the IETF works and help you be more successful in bringing work here. The creation of non-Working Group mailing requires the approval of an IESG Area Director (AD). While each AD can have their own specific requirements and milestones that need to be met, all rely on showing that a number of IETF participants are interested in the topic and want to help develop it. The best first step is to try and start a discussion on the < art@ietf.org > mailing list and apply any feedback you receive as best you can. This can be a very long and involved process, that relies on convincing others (including one or more ADs) that the idea is worth doing and worth helping to do it. It is also important to note that we strive for professional and constructive conduct on all IETF mailing lists and at meetings; this is especially true on the ietf@ietf.org mailing list, which reaches thousands of individuals. That code is outlined in BCP 54 (RFC 7154) . Please try not to use what can appear to be personal attacks or accusations. While not everyone meet these guidelines, we still ask that each person do their best to meet these guidelines at all times regardless of how others behave. Thank you, IETF Sargeant-at-Arms ----- Forwarded message from pradeep@explodingmoon.org ----- Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 23:56:31 -0600 From: pradeep@explodingmoon.org Subject: Please approve a mailing list or inform me how to Create a mailing list for discussing these projects To: ietf-action@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org Hello Please approve a mailing list for these drafts or inform me of procedure how to Create one. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pradeepkumarxplorer-httpi/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pradeepkumarxplorer-httpuserinfo/ Pradeep Kumar Xplorer ----- End forwarded message ----- From nobody Tue Jul 24 05:07:30 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DF3B1277BB for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 05:07:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.663 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.663 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.5, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=1.164, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=explodingmoon.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iSdhYpX3VleC for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 05:07:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy1-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy1-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.25.95]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C7DF0130E8D for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 05:07:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmgw13.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.13]) by gproxy1.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92E8017628D for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 06:07:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from box439.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.239]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id hw67fSg6PYe1jhw67f4SL4; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 06:07:23 -0600 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=explodingmoon.org; s=default; h=MIME-Version:Content-Type:Subject:To:From: Message-ID:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=mnAbfw60OKAkUThA2AXP7FlXvi0IUuxJJYqsthXZBDM=; b=I8b5w69RB+W7YTaVQ6WdauRnVQ qQAlmKg8+qJL3ISfW6QKl+rQQ9EDtSaFkDayaFJ/Xwukyw0rS7ZNg7Gst19Q52VdiHQeL73SzNK2N XaDZSHcLjiVdOFh+Sx6UY97ROGtUf+xA5uoQz3a7M+I/mzJsWUtiI/26S1YCnljjYuPnGVx/+OZd/ NTbDZvxfVVzGDzPvunT7LFIgqpI0e9gMI4eKDZYxT7BWH0hNj3nZ0yLgDkHRSMmYMU6lc9hlo4vDS Ww+nom1kv8q5nlu0cBbbzIii1FcUzekAbnhUfcyhhw/W8KWFeam0Gf6u9vOSp+dZburEigvyzbzdb nZkfcgkQ==; Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=25009 helo=box439.bluehost.com) by box439.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1fhw67-001w2r-5c for art@ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 06:07:23 -0600 Received: from 112.133.229.115 ([112.133.229.115]) by box439.bluehost.com (Horde Framework) with HTTPS; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 06:07:22 -0600 Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 06:07:22 -0600 Message-ID: <20180724060722.Horde.gsPpnBoXjf5POrdlnxHcGYy@box439.bluehost.com> From: pradeep@explodingmoon.org To: art@ietf.org User-Agent: Horde Application Framework 5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; DelSp=Yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box439.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explodingmoon.org X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Source-L: Yes X-Exim-ID: 1fhw67-001w2r-5c X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: (box439.bluehost.com) [127.0.0.1]:25009 X-Source-Auth: pradeep@explodingmoon.org X-Email-Count: 19 X-Source-Cap: ZXhwbG9kaTQ7ZXhwbG9kaTQ7Ym94NDM5LmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: [art] Fwd: Please approve a mailing list or inform me how to Create a mailing list for discussing these projects X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 12:07:27 -0000 ----- Forwarded message from valdis.kletnieks@vt.edu ----- Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 05:12:17 -0400 From: valdis.kletnieks@vt.edu Subject: Re: Please approve a mailing list or inform me how to Create a mailing list for discussing these projects To: pradeep@explodingmoon.org Cc: ietf-action@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org On Fri, 20 Jul 2018 23:56:31 -0600, pradeep@explodingmoon.org said: > Hello > > Please approve a mailing list for these drafts or inform me of > procedure how to Create > one. > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pradeepkumarxplorer-httpi/ > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pradeepkumarxplorer-httpuserinfo/ These are both one-paragraph drafts calling for solutions to problems that have been solved quite some time ago. 'httpi://' isn't needed, because we already have all the pieces we need to do this. In fact, if anything, many websites have so many "related" and "you might be interested in" links that we've coined the term "clickbait" for attempts to get your attention among the mass of links. And let's face it - this is a service that should be under the user's control. This has two results: 1) It doesn't need to be sent to the destination site so they can decorate the page they're sending you, so a new protocol isn't needed. 2) Since it's better done by the user, what you *really* want is a browser extension that does all the markup and searching, without the user even having to type 'httpi://'. For example, see how Chrome or Firefox can deal with the user typing a search string into the URL bar, and giving suggested completions - each new set of completions was an entire new query from the browser to a search engine. Or see any of the many browser extensions that do real-time markup of pages - everything from replacing all pictures of Donald Trump in news stories with pictures of kittens, to extended search and annotation, to a whole bunch of other things: Annotation: https://www.maketecheasier.com/google-chrome-extensions-annotate-text-on-the-web/ Searching for related terms: https://www.pcworld.com/article/2158690/improve-your-search-chops-and-save-time-with-these-chrome-extensions.html Word definitions: https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/7-chrome-extensions-lookup-words-meanings-browse/ (Think for a moment about how the web extension knows that the picture is one of Donald Trump... that's not as easy as it looks...) And userinfo isn't needed either - we already know how to do authenticated user via any number of means - anything from per-user PKI certificates, to userid/ password schemes, to 2-factor authentication with physical tokens or biometric information, to a whole collection of other methods. As your userinfo draft says: " Right now to hide sensitive or subscription based information i have to implement username password restrictions in the website code i am publishing.I should be able to say that only a HTTP client request that has in addition to location and IP address some User information should be served information from my website." You probably want to find out who Jeff Bezos is, and why his company was able to work around this problem and make billions of dollars. Also, you'll need to explain *why* "you should be able to", and why it requires a new protocol, and why other solutions aren't sufficient. Hint 1 - how do weather.com and Google Maps know where you are? (Google even knows which way I'm facing with the cellphone.. think about that for a bit while you think about how you're going to explain a new protocol is needed to do that...) Hint 2 - the Internet is growing increasingly mobile - so "location" isn't a very reliable identifier any more. I've paid utility bills from a laptop tethered to a cellphone while at a Boy Scout camp 6 hours drive from where I live - so it isn't safe to say that "me" is only at my apartment or my office. In addition, if it reports "the wireless network at Virginia Tech" as my location, that doesn't separate me from all the other users, because that "location" is a single wireless SSID that spans 2,000+ access points in 200 buildings and over 19,000 users during weekday afternoons when classes are in session. In short, "Me" isn't tied to a location, and a location usually doesn't identify "me" as opposed to everybody else using the network/cellphone at that location. Hint 3 - you still have an authentication issue. You're unclear whether your website should get the information as part of the user's http request, or from a third party. If you're getting it from the user, you'd just re-invented the very bad idea of user-side authentication - you're relying on the user to be honest and not send you false authenticators (and of course, the Bad Guys(tm) will send falsified information). If you're calling a third party, you avoid the user-side authentication problem, but now have a different problem - you have only the information the user provided - an IP address and *maybe* a userid/password, as information that you can send this third party to get your "userinfo" data. Hint 4 - you can work around those problems in Hint 3 if you're clever - at which point you've re-invented "identity provider services" such as Shibboleth: https://www.shibboleth.net/ which can be used for cross-organization single-sign-on, and leveraged to provide services such as EduRoam: https://www.eduroam.org/ - the end result is that I can be visiting Europe, go to Riga Technical University, and authenticate to their wireless network - but only if I know my userid/password at Virginia Tech and have either a specific Yubikey 4 with me, or one of several other 2-factor authenticators supported by Virginia Tech. One of those involves calling my cellphone (which has a phone number assigned to the southwest part of Virginia, in the US - and having it ring even if I'm in eastern Europe. Think about that for a moment) And all this stuff gets done without any new protocols being needed... To get a mailing list for these proposals, you'll have to convince people that these solved problems are in fact not solved, and explain what's wrong with the solutions, and do so in a way that demonstrates that you do in fact know what's already doable without these new protocols.... Good luck, you're going to need it.... ----- End forwarded message ----- From nobody Tue Jul 24 05:09:19 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3B171292AD for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 05:09:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.037 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.037 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.5, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=1.164, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=explodingmoon.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ONhUd-DYXAqc for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 05:09:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outbound-ss-348.hostmonster.com (outbound-ss-348.hostmonster.com [74.220.202.212]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C409E1277BB for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 05:09:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmgw15.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.15]) by gproxy6.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6486F1E0B1C for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 06:09:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from box439.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.239]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id hw7sfBbW4j0sohw7sfChNR; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 06:09:12 -0600 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=explodingmoon.org; s=default; h=MIME-Version:Content-Type:Subject:To:From: Message-ID:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=pBV6Pk15+hGBtewZrQPo307dGDhfUlg94MEyBX2RAwg=; b=HNCGT6IQJwPrBL8RpBR7VjlFdy U/XtaeN4V5w9ITuUm3muJZl+XQTLJWyFJOAzFHHM2K3zpkEmjdiDOqi5TPOhLqEfaoNQR2dhIKuLe z4/fToP8cmM7nt3cB1PyJsWk4tSyH9AFmkHlbdAc4436I8NEhdUCgv3VLslw7dBCMz750qNsCbfJB jHv1bGVfcbctJtael9sDlMlMTSK83r+DcAy0VqaTjgAJq90STLSm0aJbCz1X0gZT1Xup1xc0ccsOE w1S41CQzHck/fcQ23U4VtN97JPjjFkzaN653TI/MD+mXw8UyTVx8dgBZBVSB02hz95cWPt0V9jB6M jYqnGGxw==; Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=27313 helo=box439.bluehost.com) by box439.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1fhw7s-001wsp-0U for art@ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 06:09:12 -0600 Received: from 112.133.229.115 ([112.133.229.115]) by box439.bluehost.com (Horde Framework) with HTTPS; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 06:09:11 -0600 Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 06:09:11 -0600 Message-ID: <20180724060911.Horde.swHKU3hUWAugtvW5TmwYDKn@box439.bluehost.com> From: pradeep@explodingmoon.org To: art@ietf.org User-Agent: Horde Application Framework 5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; DelSp=Yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box439.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explodingmoon.org X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Source-L: Yes X-Exim-ID: 1fhw7s-001wsp-0U X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: (box439.bluehost.com) [127.0.0.1]:27313 X-Source-Auth: pradeep@explodingmoon.org X-Email-Count: 21 X-Source-Cap: ZXhwbG9kaTQ7ZXhwbG9kaTQ7Ym94NDM5LmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: [art] Fwd: Please approve a mailing list or inform me how to Create a mailing list for discussing these projects X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 12:09:18 -0000 ----- Forwarded message from valdis.kletnieks@vt.edu ----- Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 18:24:45 -0400 From: valdis.kletnieks@vt.edu Subject: Re: Please approve a mailing list or inform me how to Create a mailing list for discussing these projects To: pradeep@explodingmoon.org Cc: ietf@ietf.org, ietf-action@ietf.org On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 07:12:50 -0600, you said: > Quoting valdis.kletnieks@vt.edu: > > > On Sat, 21 Jul 2018 07:13:42 -0600, pradeep@explodingmoon.org said: > > 1) No definition of "WWW Brain". > I dont accept your answer. WWW and software has evolved with > Artificial intelligence > big companies like google use Artificial intelligence. And oddly enough, Google is able to use this AI without needing an httpi://, and browser extensions are able to do similar, also without needing an httpi:// Which is why you need to explain exactly why the IETF should bother with dealing with these drafts. > I > would say i dont have to > define it for engineers. Its Intelligence of Artificial intelligence > i am meaning. > You have to answer me as a WWW user and not just an engineer. Actually, since the IETF is a standards organization, a definition *is* needed. And a very precise one, such that engineers can follow it and guarantee interoperability. All known corner cases must be identified and dealt with. As a worked example, consider this RFC: 5987 Character Set and Language Encoding for Hypertext Transfer Protocol (HTTP) Header Field Parameters. J. Reschke. August 2010. (Format: TXT=20108 bytes) (Obsoleted by RFC8187) (Status: HISTORIC) (DOI: 10.17487/RFC5987) https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5987 10 pages specifying in high detail *exactly* how to do one very small part of HTTP handling: encode non-ASCII data into HTTP headers. You're going to need to explain your "WWW brain" in equally detailed syntax and semantics, not just handwaving. What the browser does when a user enters 'httpi://', what it sends to a server, how the server responds, including all the possible error codes, and how the user's browser should react to the various errors. I'll provide a hint: You may want to learn enough about HTTP so you realize that most extension to the base HTTP/1.1 specification are done as additional header fields rather than a new httpX:// protocol. (For example, there's a very specific on-the-network protocol issue why we even have an https:// at all And learn enough about browser design to figure out how to Make It Just Work for a user without having to specify httpi:// (which will be important for things like search engines or embedded links - otherwise a user will have to do a "copy URL to clipboard", then paste it into the URL bar, and add an 'i' to the http. And do it every link they want this new feature on) But, of course, first you need to explain your idea in sufficient detail that makes it clear that the IETF should work on it. The fact that it's already being done all over the place without your idea means you'll need some very good reasons indeed.... > I as a WIndows Personal computer android user have supported the companies > that manufacture and market them so i have a right to demand that they ship You can *request* they do so. You're not in a position to *demand* it. I'm not in a position to demand it, either. Neither is the IETF - it merely standardizes the "if you're going to do it, it should be done this exact way". Think of it as traffic laws for the Internet, standardizing the design of cars and trucks and traffic signs. > efficient solutions and httpi is more efficient than browser extensions. Show actual proof that it's more efficient. Include network traces, round trip times, network utilization statistics, and other relevant data. Handle latency, bandwidth needed at the server end, and bandwidth needed at the client end. Make sure you cover all the common cases: non-overlapped requests, multiple overlapped requests to multiple servers, and multiple overlapped requests over one connection to one server. Note that this can be difficult - for instance, https://www.cnn.com makes references to *at least* 31 different servers. And that's not counting all the references stopped by my ad-blocker - without that, there would undoubtedly be many more than just 31. > Does IETF enforce any such, then they have to enforce this implementation and > all httpd services tunnel through httpi. Remember what I said about error codes? This is a good example. What happens if you send httpi:// to a server running older software that doesn't support it (which at the present time means "every single one out there")? This means you need to worry about things like versioning and forward and backward compatability. And again - you have to be *specific* as to what error the server sends, and what the browser does in response, so that a software engineer implementing this for Edge or Chrome is able to make it work based on the specification. Feel free to come back when you've gotten it to a state that the IETF can use. ----- End forwarded message ----- From nobody Tue Jul 24 05:14:12 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 702ED130E5D for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 05:14:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.663 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.663 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.5, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=1.164, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=explodingmoon.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7kmdsWgf6yeB for ; 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bh=XSn17uLfqX9+DRg1qQef+oCa+1P1vCu5KN0Uy9hpmeM=; b=Dcx7q1c/zzcRkPlGFeVUpmL5Sc ToHYgqI/bmhRl5+LTUczc0jTwufNyzd8ZpEW6rLyxeNocrW6Brl+Yi5aBqTuDifzdfeoPDWWJlDyi hwqkNTgThY2jrpjppKauelWP8EE09temMikSNs5e5yI9gArGgLnjZyjZ+Op+Q3x/Tw/vUvUqQ4Jtm cgEblDhH6CgEhjZyYXxQnB12sTTCJjcBIJisi1jqt5SNemiAgTv6gNxB4D+jOL/hNWdTwBbTpvMIo ypm2sPzIxWWJDBYuaChN25yYv7Mxv3mmo8XPD1gZuuj8T4Gh0Ff8t4TquLGx1WQF+OBebCTt4D7LN v3bnpKtw==; Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=26251 helo=box439.bluehost.com) by box439.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1fhw6y-001wT6-77 for art@ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 06:08:16 -0600 Received: from 112.133.229.115 ([112.133.229.115]) by box439.bluehost.com (Horde Framework) with HTTPS; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 06:08:16 -0600 Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 06:08:16 -0600 Message-ID: <20180724060816.Horde.yfym5jEZXc4xreHNdwXoLfZ@box439.bluehost.com> From: pradeep@explodingmoon.org To: art@ietf.org User-Agent: Horde Application Framework 5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; DelSp=Yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box439.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explodingmoon.org X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Source-L: Yes X-Exim-ID: 1fhw6y-001wT6-77 X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: (box439.bluehost.com) [127.0.0.1]:26251 X-Source-Auth: pradeep@explodingmoon.org X-Email-Count: 20 X-Source-Cap: ZXhwbG9kaTQ7ZXhwbG9kaTQ7Ym94NDM5LmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: [art] Fwd: Please approve a mailing list or inform me how to Create a mailing list for discussing these projects X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 12:14:11 -0000 ----- Forwarded message from valdis.kletnieks@vt.edu ----- Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 19:35:58 -0400 From: valdis.kletnieks@vt.edu Subject: Re: Please approve a mailing list or inform me how to Create a mailing list for discussing these projects To: pradeep@explodingmoon.org Cc: ietf@ietf.org On Sat, 21 Jul 2018 07:13:42 -0600, pradeep@explodingmoon.org said: > What i proposed is when user types httpi://www.pradeepkumarxplorer.com > the information served by pradeepkumarxplorer.com httpd tunnels > through another > httpi that could be any solution server side scripting that shows the > viewer of the information with additional links suggested by the WWW > Brain. 1) No definition of "WWW Brain". 2) If anything, the Web is already *full* of "You may also like..." links added by the server side. Quite obviously: 2a) they don't need an httpi:// to insert them 2b) they aren't very expensive to insert 2c) There's browser extensions to *remove* these 3) Therefor, the proper place for adding "additional links" is obviously at the user browser end - and there's extensions that will do this sort of thing without need of an 'httpi://' protocol definition If these additional hyperlinks are something that's to be under user control, it's a matter for the browser creators to add a configuration options or way for an extension to interact and do the searching. And that will be different for Chrome, or Firefox, or Edge, or a MacOS or iOS browser and thus not an IETF issue. For a worked example: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/highlight-to-search/floipahigmmkfhkoapmnijnlnboniglg?hl=en Highlight the text on the page, and it will go a Google search for more info. No httpi:// needed. You'll have to explain what problem you're trying to solve that isn't already solved. In addition, you need to explain why a new on-the-network protocol (which is what the IETF does) is needed, when it's already been demonstrated to be doable without any new protocols or anything else that is done by the IETF. > This saves thousands of hours and possibly millions of dollars for > website Creators from manually hypertexting their files using whatever > tools like Hypothesiser or many browser extensions available. Not really. A site that insists on adding their own links will still add their own links, no matter what the user signals. Remember - if your "www brain" extension is able to find keywords in the page and add additional links, the web server can *also* do the same thing without an httpi:// - and so can the user's browser (and probably better, because the user's browser can query a site like Google that can make better suggestions because it knows what previous queries the user has done...) > WHat i proposed in my second draft is a switch on the server side that > prevents an unauthenticated user from seeing any information and > authentication means First off, if it's a switch on the server side, it's a server configuration issue, not an IETF issue. The way to specify that switch, and how it works, will be different for Apache, or ngnix, or IIS, or Squid, or anything else that is functioning as a web server or proxy. And the user *SHOULD NOT* (in the RFC sense) be specifying information to override the server's decision. Again - there's absolutely nothing stopping the server from doing whatever sort of authentication it wants to, and there's no need for IETF action. Webservers can already do sufficient authentication - and a case can be made that it's not the IETF's job to specify that authentication. The short summary - you're not going to get an IETF list to discuss either draft until such time as you show that it's something that is an IETF issue to deal with. And given that both drafts address things that have already been done without any IETF action, it's unlikely you'll be able to show that the IETF needs to do anything. > but someone from ietf.org has deleted my email pradeep@explodingmoon.org and > i had to use my other email pradeepan88@hotmail.com. There's no way to say in > internet that pradeep@explodingmoon.org and pradeepan88@hotmail.com are the > same individual thats me 1) The deletion may be a hint that somebody at the IETF doesn't want to hear from you because your mails aren't related to the IETF. 2) The fact that you can't tell the internet that two email addresses are the same person is a good example of why your 'userinfo' proposal isn't workable. (Plus, it's not even a fixed relationship - I have multiple email addresses, and I have some sites that I have told that (for example) 3 of the 5 addresses are actually the same person - but there's other sites that I do *NOT* want then deciding that address A and B and C are the same person. There's no way for a 'userinfo' service to securely get that right. ----- End forwarded message ----- From nobody Tue Jul 24 05:42:44 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13F22130E6F for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 05:42:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.663 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.663 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.5, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=1.164, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=explodingmoon.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id taDqgAUx46wP for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 05:42:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy3-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy3-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.30.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4E550130EB9 for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 05:42:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmgw13.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.13]) by gproxy3.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2472D40DAA for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 06:18:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from box439.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.239]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id hwGafT17OYe1jhwGbf4f64; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 06:18:13 -0600 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=explodingmoon.org; s=default; h=MIME-Version:Content-Type:In-Reply-To: References:Subject:To:From:Message-ID:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=4M8ulnvXgRpCer0sPUiOafRCGQCrGPVYRzo3KtcPM6c=; b=CBlfnO5Fb7v4aCWQMQE1LK/xM Nh6sSXZjMtF07OCi8kDI7JdbAb/BMWzjBiSZ0VTMqrkkdirKYhL+o7kTvqTVCsM9KpphKhAIWDd/I TEX2cjTKQhQu1+NUbam/dAmdWNq5K3o57F6QaAQRXUEtVXGGXQbdx291IHEGey+rmWXXEcJnZuKaQ JcczMYOBmIdZEAXEjrR+qQguxsuh4jR/No5zSSstm8ddCSsYEIbqf0D403M93sKCX4tN+PfMBUHw/ yNMQN+Ct5m9gr7hO0p0ndcvXDDEnm+2YGiJjzhWYbETA/Ad0fiXJKV4z6i6I2Th484SMnNG6fio64 v+raSQO/Q==; Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=40799 helo=box439.bluehost.com) by box439.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1fhwGV-0021ht-CQ; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 06:18:07 -0600 Received: from 112.133.229.115 ([112.133.229.115]) by box439.bluehost.com (Horde Framework) with HTTPS; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 06:18:07 -0600 Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 06:18:07 -0600 Message-ID: <20180724061807.Horde.nvke3-6-xQlqbZpDFekjLb4@box439.bluehost.com> From: pradeep@explodingmoon.org To: "Matthew A. Miller" , art@ietf.org References: <20180720235631.Horde.99rki6Z3lqDOOUpWm-upQ8f@box439.bluehost.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Horde Application Framework 5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; DelSp=Yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box439.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explodingmoon.org X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Source-L: Yes X-Exim-ID: 1fhwGV-0021ht-CQ X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: (box439.bluehost.com) [127.0.0.1]:40799 X-Source-Auth: pradeep@explodingmoon.org X-Email-Count: 22 X-Source-Cap: ZXhwbG9kaTQ7ZXhwbG9kaTQ7Ym94NDM5LmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Org: HG=bhcustomer;ORG=bluehost; X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Please approve a mailing list or inform me how to Create a mailing list for discussing these projects X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 12:42:43 -0000 Mathew, Thanks for the information. I am someone working with too little resources/money and trying to solve my problems in parallel and cannot be distracted by other discussions if possible. I am unemployed with no income from my website that i publish for 14 years and is a victim of cybercrime/financial crime.So i request those responding to my messages copy me at pradeep@explodingmoon.org in addition to art@ietf.org. I am going through the tao of IETF to be more focussed on what i am trying to solve. Thanks Pradeep Kumar Xplorer Quoting "Matthew A. Miller" : > Hello Pradeep, > > The best place to start discussion of your documents is the art@ietf.org > mailing list, which is set aside for discussion Applications-level topic > such as this; you can subscribe to that list at < > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art >. We also recommend you read > the "The Tao of IETF" < https://www.ietf.org/about/participate/tao/ > to > help you understand how the IETF works and help you be more successful > in bringing work here. > > The creation of non-Working Group mailing requires the approval of an > IESG Area Director (AD). While each AD can have their own specific > requirements and milestones that need to be met, all rely on showing > that a number of IETF participants are interested in the topic and want > to help develop it. The best first step is to try and start a > discussion on the < art@ietf.org > mailing list and apply any feedback > you receive as best you can. This can be a very long and involved > process, that relies on convincing others (including one or more ADs) > that the idea is worth doing and worth helping to do it. > > It is also important to note that we strive for professional and > constructive conduct on all IETF mailing lists and at meetings; this is > especially true on the ietf@ietf.org mailing list, which reaches > thousands of individuals. That code is outlined in BCP 54 (RFC 7154) > . Please try not to use what can > appear to be personal attacks or accusations. While not everyone meet > these guidelines, we still ask that each person do their best to meet > these guidelines at all times regardless of how others behave. > > > Thank you, > > IETF Sargeant-at-Arms From nobody Tue Jul 24 06:24:21 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFA0E13110C for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 06:24:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.037 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.037 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.5, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=1.164, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=explodingmoon.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G9HqHgeuS6aX for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 06:24:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outbound-ss-348.hostmonster.com (outbound-ss-348.hostmonster.com [74.220.202.212]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AD083131110 for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 06:24:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmgw15.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.15]) by gproxy6.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30E971E07E4 for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 07:24:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from box439.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.239]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id hxITfDqcBj0sohxIUfDsDV; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 07:24:14 -0600 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=explodingmoon.org; s=default; h=MIME-Version:Content-Type:In-Reply-To: References:Subject:To:From:Message-ID:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=mxVBGLprzKXZt4hNwTzshFasoL4YGUfI8S2bJCRVHD8=; b=ZF6WUVtcBNJH832p2oZSKPHVH y4Poy7fZei8B/JOA9f5AUpwQA4eCnA8vrFflKv+ag1RfABbuzEfJz4LkOjC3OUFaQH7JP9yjgL3ch yQxdeaTJndhtZO9RIqjRVWBsEvqkOSely2UDMO9oYy+zGb7avFXmz/muAcuNqgE7E4q1mvXRUwLgu zzjmsC6GGExp0VpQI2OcSk9ogymqViomytpw9Y87iDSuMMlGP/BzHJiC7LkR/kkbu6FduNRFaG4y8 /vcY3jh80R38RF6qaGAfbj471uAa0+u50NJGRPm/iPTFLZrVf1P7D4iiZ0evYReVFCCvkJO2tdh8E /dpKN8UBQ==; Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=47171 helo=box439.bluehost.com) by box439.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1fhxIT-002dQH-Ay; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 07:24:13 -0600 Received: from 112.133.229.115 ([112.133.229.115]) by box439.bluehost.com (Horde Framework) with HTTPS; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 07:24:13 -0600 Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 07:24:13 -0600 Message-ID: <20180724072413.Horde.evLnI1wmvFXcneHkpTBIiFL@box439.bluehost.com> From: pradeep@explodingmoon.org To: valdis.kletnieks@vt.edu, art@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org References: <20180720235631.Horde.99rki6Z3lqDOOUpWm-upQ8f@box439.bluehost.com> <164401.1532164337@turing-police.cc.vt.edu> In-Reply-To: <164401.1532164337@turing-police.cc.vt.edu> User-Agent: Horde Application Framework 5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; DelSp=Yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box439.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explodingmoon.org X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Source-L: Yes X-Exim-ID: 1fhxIT-002dQH-Ay X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: (box439.bluehost.com) [127.0.0.1]:47171 X-Source-Auth: pradeep@explodingmoon.org X-Email-Count: 16 X-Source-Cap: ZXhwbG9kaTQ7ZXhwbG9kaTQ7Ym94NDM5LmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Please approve a mailing list or inform me how to Create a mailing list for discussing these projects X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 13:24:20 -0000 See my comments at the end Quoting valdis.kletnieks@vt.edu: > On Fri, 20 Jul 2018 23:56:31 -0600, pradeep@explodingmoon.org said: >> Hello >> >> Please approve a mailing list for these drafts or inform me of >> procedure how to Create >> one. >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pradeepkumarxplorer-httpi/ >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pradeepkumarxplorer-httpuserinfo/ > > These are both one-paragraph drafts calling for solutions to > problems that have > been solved quite some time ago. > > 'httpi://' isn't needed, because we already have all the pieces we need to do > this. In fact, if anything, many websites have so many "related" and "you > might be interested in" links that we've coined the term "clickbait" for > attempts to get your attention among the mass of links. And let's face it - > this is a service that should be under the user's control. This has two > results: > > 1) It doesn't need to be sent to the destination site so they can > decorate the > page they're sending you, so a new protocol isn't needed. > > 2) Since it's better done by the user, what you *really* want is a browser > extension that does all the markup and searching, without the user > even having > to type 'httpi://'. For example, see how Chrome or Firefox can deal with the > user typing a search string into the URL bar, and giving suggested > completions > - each new set of completions was an entire new query from the browser to a > search engine. Or see any of the many browser extensions that do real-time > markup of pages - everything from replacing all pictures of Donald Trump in > news stories with pictures of kittens, to extended search and > annotation, to a > whole bunch of other things: > > Annotation: > https://www.maketecheasier.com/google-chrome-extensions-annotate-text-on-the-web/ > Searching for related terms: > https://www.pcworld.com/article/2158690/improve-your-search-chops-and-save-time-with-these-chrome-extensions.html > Word definitions: > https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/7-chrome-extensions-lookup-words-meanings-browse/ > > (Think for a moment about how the web extension knows that the picture > is one of Donald Trump... that's not as easy as it looks...) > I have downloaded and experimented Highlight to Search Google chrome extension on the text i Created http://www.pradeepkumarxplorer.com/YogaSequence.txt. Its not really the same as httpi It does search in one application google.com. What if Yahoo provides better search result. There's no way for User profiling. I am someone being a man prefering to see only woman models in youtube or images quoting as an example. I am saying its difficult for an ordinary user as opposed to an engineer to know about extensions and install. Its against the guideline of keeping clients thin as possible. As a Usability evaluator, i would say instead of one click, its now two to three clicks and it does not do the choosing for me.Computer / WWW can chose first and then allow WWW user to ReSearch if needed.I am saying software used by Highlight to search should be reused in httpi code in server side if its the correct thing to do but it uses only google.Just typing httpi should give WWW user best of all extensions available and more.I would say enable intelligent browsing menu in Browser should lead to URL being prefixed by httpi or the user can type httpi. What you are saying is work is already 90 percent done but scattered in fez dozen software that should be consolidated into one place good principles of software engineering. Pluggable intelligent profiles could be used in server side in httpi:// Is anyone aware of any AI mailing list that's appropriate that can be included for their opinion? Pradeep Kumar Xplorer From nobody Tue Jul 24 06:35:49 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18ED1130ED4 for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 06:35:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.663 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.663 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.5, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=1.164, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=explodingmoon.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AdTwIycEQ06g for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 06:35:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy8-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy8-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [67.222.33.93]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1CDFC131115 for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 06:35:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmgw11.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.11]) by gproxy8.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B62C41AB2C7 for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 07:35:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from box439.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.239]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id hxTRfmu9cd20ThxTRfjJdt; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 07:35:33 -0600 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=explodingmoon.org; s=default; h=MIME-Version:Content-Type:In-Reply-To: References:Subject:To:From:Message-ID:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=XnsyhcLNxgZJU4i9Tx0LV7vHMphAYyiTtHwTHTuAzFo=; b=kOjY5Gd+ENhJHkclXKJE4trOh 9TSwUxsJjq6udp3L6NSJhm1yez7r+tkXrqLqMDigQEM/b/1/4jOhAqoa80OzQpBtK0XOS0HSN7uYK 5+Y8ERxsOgdJjVvXtGCI+Fhbb2Dq60eTxFG7QuItCvFA7Iu57r9y7TN07r4j6SofueFpVVo0zcLxp UW27osnWjZwDKmvglBk0b8cr3tE1s/nQ2pefn1GMVLZ88J5Vzez0VResgD55t9rH+uAcXPbSuR/lI vR9BnJn0LSc/Ywpz/bA/7wZ4CVadz/p106dSn5OqDQNpy/MEAvy5gwOn6xc0LF36jQmy8HnJFUD0v u7KrfxJYg==; Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=17635 helo=box439.bluehost.com) by box439.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1fhxTQ-002kFR-Oe; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 07:35:32 -0600 Received: from 112.133.229.115 ([112.133.229.115]) by box439.bluehost.com (Horde Framework) with HTTPS; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 07:35:32 -0600 Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 07:35:32 -0600 Message-ID: <20180724073532.Horde.ecvh3YkS6zyH44Qz3K2Bt0V@box439.bluehost.com> From: pradeep@explodingmoon.org To: valdis.kletnieks@vt.edu, art@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org References: <20180720235631.Horde.99rki6Z3lqDOOUpWm-upQ8f@box439.bluehost.com> <164401.1532164337@turing-police.cc.vt.edu> <20180724072413.Horde.evLnI1wmvFXcneHkpTBIiFL@box439.bluehost.com> In-Reply-To: <20180724072413.Horde.evLnI1wmvFXcneHkpTBIiFL@box439.bluehost.com> User-Agent: Horde Application Framework 5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; DelSp=Yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box439.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explodingmoon.org X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Source-L: Yes X-Exim-ID: 1fhxTQ-002kFR-Oe X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: (box439.bluehost.com) [127.0.0.1]:17635 X-Source-Auth: pradeep@explodingmoon.org X-Email-Count: 35 X-Source-Cap: ZXhwbG9kaTQ7ZXhwbG9kaTQ7Ym94NDM5LmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Please approve a mailing list or inform me how to Create a mailing list for discussing these projects X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 13:35:47 -0000 In addition it spawning a different browser for each search. Inefficient implementation that can crash thin clients. > I have downloaded and experimented Highlight to Search Google chrome > extension > on the text i Created http://www.pradeepkumarxplorer.com/YogaSequence.txt. > Its not really the same as httpi > It does search in one application google.com. What if Yahoo provides > better search result. > There's no way for User profiling. I am someone being a man prefering to see > only woman models in youtube or images quoting as an example. I am > saying its difficult for an ordinary user as opposed to an engineer > to know about extensions and install. Its against the guideline of > keeping clients thin as possible. As a Usability evaluator, i would > say instead of one click, its now two to three clicks and it does > not do the choosing for me.Computer / WWW can chose first and then > allow WWW user to ReSearch if needed.I am saying software used by > Highlight to search should be reused in httpi code in server side if > its the correct thing to do but it uses only google.Just typing > httpi should give WWW user best of all extensions available and > more.I would say enable intelligent browsing menu in Browser should > lead to URL being prefixed by httpi or the user can type httpi. What > you are saying is work is already 90 percent done > but scattered in fez dozen software that should be consolidated into > one place > good principles of software engineering. > Pluggable intelligent profiles could be used in server side in httpi:// > Is anyone aware of any AI mailing list that's appropriate that can > be included for their opinion? > Pradeep Kumar Xplorer From nobody Tue Jul 24 23:02:27 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6796C130E2A for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 23:02:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.838 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.838 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=1.164, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=explodingmoon.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h3oMce4Vkjsd for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 23:02:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy4-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy4-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.23.142]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA9CB130DE2 for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 23:02:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmgw14.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.14]) by gproxy4.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A138175F22 for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 23:47:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from box439.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.239]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id iCdbfzgdmvdTuiCdbfjoVX; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 23:47:03 -0600 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=explodingmoon.org; s=default; h=MIME-Version:Content-Type:In-Reply-To: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Message-ID:Date:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=ZGy7q66e7QoiU5mLj0N97sbUQlkn0hjgj6SOWUJMFTc=; b=SCqwwuydHWN+F1uvsyvE2H4eU yICctMi3T5tohHplAPdJdiaDF2KZdqkB+1H1/HnPnFMptZqhLYH2//7Vv4HYAWp3ldClwElHSiLUg SrcrzOZfffm/4AfIsZQn9/m5qR2zplNNtl9wWCoJ37T+4P7sPYIv75Zb56q4OdlLibwJYMXVutDMF Hz9q22BJZ7K7VHOSIkcBmTRSY7LXJWZ+6/yWlfVrOmvP4q/a9vfkcuCVMHfo3B3iD3108fF67v/Sn 1gDDLZYXl3WxliMkf9PmPLRp8UsVveGDhO766/0RONkUmT5Bii+Z402NicKBjTyOtoaDsA1VWbe4q uc3WPF61w==; Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=18501 helo=box439.bluehost.com) by box439.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1fiCda-002oxS-Fm; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 23:47:02 -0600 Received: from 112.133.236.156 ([112.133.236.156]) by box439.bluehost.com (Horde Framework) with HTTPS; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 23:47:02 -0600 Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 23:47:02 -0600 Message-ID: <20180724234702.Horde.caig8U4qJTVrkIVriAF0r48@box439.bluehost.com> From: pradeep@explodingmoon.org To: John C Klensin Cc: "Matthew A. Miller" , art@ietf.org References: <20180720235631.Horde.99rki6Z3lqDOOUpWm-upQ8f@box439.bluehost.com> <20180724061807.Horde.nvke3-6-xQlqbZpDFekjLb4@box439.bluehost.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Horde Application Framework 5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; DelSp=Yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box439.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explodingmoon.org X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Source-L: Yes X-Exim-ID: 1fiCda-002oxS-Fm X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: (box439.bluehost.com) [127.0.0.1]:18501 X-Source-Auth: pradeep@explodingmoon.org X-Email-Count: 19 X-Source-Cap: ZXhwbG9kaTQ7ZXhwbG9kaTQ7Ym94NDM5LmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Please approve a mailing list or inform me how to Create a mailing list for discussing these projects X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 06:02:25 -0000 Hello I observed that i can see the archives in the web. So i wont miss any discussions related to my postings or anything that i can possibly contribute in art@ietf.org. My Drafts are Created by me because of my real life situation as a WWW user and Website publisher for last 14 years. I would want someone enforce that WWW servers are shipped with the option of disallowing unauthenticated users or mail clients and servers shipped with the option of not allowing unauthorised emailers. I cannot be at the sympathy of individuals but based on real business need and as an Ex SUN employee i think i can have a voice on this. I am a victim of crime and my life has already been harmed and the available organisations that fight against cybercrime has not helped and are corrupt and opportunistic. I have been attacked by those who should have protected me.I really dont know how google and youtube and facebook and twitter survive as .com giving their services free. I dont have that magic or power to get free money and i am affected. I have already semi proved that httpi service like other network service is a business need but if theres no progress what can be done?.I am a WWW engineer Ex SUN employee and the US DHS has prevented me from mediating for a solution with SUN or being reemployed leading to me being harmed many times in kerala/palakkad.I proposed drafts that is really needed to fight cybercrime and improve the experience of WWW user and i am one among them. I am afraid to post on your list but i have to do it eventually to get a solution. I agree everyone is busy but i cannot allow business based on artificial needs when i have convinced that i am victim of ongoing cybercrime because of lack of features in products shipped and they are real needs of millions to billions of email and WWW users. Pradeep Kumar Xplorer Quoting John C Klensin : > Pradeep, > > This note is off-list. > > Let me add a few comments and bits of advise to Matthew's > remarks, some of which I've said to you in the past. I am > writing strictly as an individual, but one with considerable > experience around the IETF and its predecessors. > > First of all, almost everyone participating in the IETF is busy > and most, even those with some corporate or organizational > support for their work, are volunteers who have a make > often-difficult decisions about how to spend their time. The > people in leadership roles, including the Area Directors, tend > to be especially busy. Those who want to bring new work in need > to persuade others to pay attention to and spend time on that > work. No one, and no desired work, have any special rights in > that. I might have an easier time than you do in getting a > hearing, but that is because I've been known to make some useful > contributions in the past, not because I have any special > rights... and I've brought lots of work to the IETF that has > gotten no traction at all. I find that frustrating, but I just > move on. > > Second, while Matthew's suggestion about taking the actual > protocol suggestions to the ART list is entirely appropriate and > I completely support his comment about professional and > constructive conduct, it is probably worth making one additional > suggestion. While there are few, if any, guarantees about > getting work accepted (and Matthew's comments, the "Tao", and > comments from people about relationship to other work are all > very relevant), you should be aware that, perhaps unfortunately, > there is a guaranteed way to _not_ have your technical proposals > considered. That is to have those busy people convinced, one at > a time, that your messages are not worth reading in general or > that the signal to noise ratio in and among them is just too > long to be worth the effort. What happens then is that people > modify their mail filters so that your messages just disappear. > Some of us feel more obligation to try to read messages from > newcomers than others, but, from your point of view, people who > don't read your messages are unlikely to read your drafts, much > less make decisions that there is IETF interest in pursuing your > ideas. > > So, if you want to be heard, try to focus. Whatever your issues > are with your domain name, take them up with ICANN or the > relevant registry -- the IETF can't do anything about them and, > while you might get some sympathy, all you will accomplish in > the IETF is to irritate some people and convince some others > that the signal to noise ratio in your messages is just too low. > Similarly, try to keep your messages few and focused -- when you > post a large number of messages with the same apparently subject > matter in a short period of time (especially to the IETF list > and especially if you cross-post to multiple lists), people are > more likely to ignore all of them, read one message and delete > the rest, or make you a candidate for treating anything from you > as trash. > > Similarly, while I sympathize with your financial, etc., > situation and am pleased and impressed when you try to bring > Internet protocol issues to the IETF in spite of that, many of > us have little or no financial support for IETF work (I have not > had any such support for more than ten years), that information > won't get your proposals any special consideration and, if > repeated too often, may annoy people and bring your message > closer to being blocked. > > I suppose that might be summarized as "if you expect the people > who do the work in the IETF with respect, you need to treat > them, and their time, with respect". But, if you want your > ideas to be considered, please concentrate on whatever makes you > most pragmatic about reducing the complaints, reducing or > eliminating the messages that imply that your idea should be > considered out of pity or sympathy, and reducing and focusing > the message volume. For better or worse, with the IETF, nothing > else will work. > > best wishes, > john > > > > > > > > > --On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 06:18 -0600 > pradeep@explodingmoon.org wrote: > >> Mathew, >> Thanks for the information. I am someone working with too >> little resources/money >> and trying to solve my problems in parallel and cannot be >> distracted by other discussions if possible. I am unemployed >> with no income from my website that i publish for 14 years and >> is a victim of cybercrime/financial crime.So i request those >> responding to my messages copy me at pradeep@explodingmoon.org >> in addition to art@ietf.org. >> >> I am going through the tao of IETF to be more focussed on what >> i am trying to solve. >> >> Thanks >> Pradeep Kumar Xplorer >> >> >> Quoting "Matthew A. Miller" : >> >>> Hello Pradeep, >>> >>> The best place to start discussion of your documents is the >>> art@ietf.org mailing list, which is set aside for discussion >>> Applications-level topic such as this; you can subscribe to >>> that list at < >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art >. We also >>> recommend you read the "The Tao of IETF" < >>> https://www.ietf.org/about/participate/tao/ > to help you >>> understand how the IETF works and help you be more successful >>> in bringing work here. >>> >>> The creation of non-Working Group mailing requires the >>> approval of an IESG Area Director (AD). While each AD can >>> have their own specific requirements and milestones that need >>> to be met, all rely on showing that a number of IETF >>> participants are interested in the topic and want to help >>> develop it. The best first step is to try and start a >>> discussion on the < art@ietf.org > mailing list and apply any >>> feedback you receive as best you can. This can be a very >>> long and involved process, that relies on convincing others >>> (including one or more ADs) that the idea is worth doing and >>> worth helping to do it. >>> >>> It is also important to note that we strive for professional >>> and constructive conduct on all IETF mailing lists and at >>> meetings; this is especially true on the ietf@ietf.org >>> mailing list, which reaches thousands of individuals. That >>> code is outlined in BCP 54 (RFC 7154) >>> . Please try not to >>> use what can appear to be personal attacks or accusations. >>> While not everyone meet these guidelines, we still ask that >>> each person do their best to meet these guidelines at all >>> times regardless of how others behave. >>> >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> IETF Sargeant-at-Arms >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> art mailing list >> art@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art From nobody Wed Jul 25 23:23:04 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63970130DEC for ; Wed, 25 Jul 2018 23:23:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.809 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.809 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FILL_THIS_FORM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_IN_RP_RNBL=1.31, RCVD_IN_SBL_CSS=3.335, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=1.164, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=explodingmoon.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W0jO2MnGW2bU for ; Wed, 25 Jul 2018 23:22:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy3-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy3-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.30.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C4FE130DC2 for ; Wed, 25 Jul 2018 23:22:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmgw10.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.10]) by gproxy3.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4668F40FDF for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 00:04:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from box439.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.239]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id iZO4f7QBquL2QiZO4fqFcw; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 00:04:32 -0600 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=explodingmoon.org; s=default; h=MIME-Version:Content-Type:Subject:To:From: Message-ID:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=WoHYDpCJ+8yy+B5JWFOKk8jE2rPNVBOyeBlv1BGUrQA=; b=e01f6xAFiyZ06n5wjNLRRqc1K+ NHJhlO8NVyOvFA+xxZdSHeiCBpCLz0cDTDZAET5qM+wBYYEZg9+i3YoOkLQaBZJvKjYeeGj01Nu2V JoyEjfZa4eoey15tr9firRjXB+PFlc3dncxPmow+ZiqmfR2W78meTE45DYfRn3aZdPegK5VQZH0KT 8FMFnOhkEZkX0/n7jZEDgMvOmUWnr1u//LwNi5KnadeUa11esG2T0IbY29BG42dUGzJH55psSewPA jfV64SElN9woPMXSd2d2aYqrEiN/qjcUc0BBtoJZtTU9PdT7IT/J6lWs7oYOcoxCJR5xStWy/YjkG sr4Iq/6g==; Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=44157 helo=box439.bluehost.com) by box439.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1fiZO4-002whk-0x for art@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 00:04:32 -0600 Received: from 112.133.236.240 ([112.133.236.240]) by box439.bluehost.com (Horde Framework) with HTTPS; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 00:04:31 -0600 Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 00:04:31 -0600 Message-ID: <20180726000431.Horde.Rpf0QaD25q6-0jOuMvaatdL@box439.bluehost.com> From: pradeep@explodingmoon.org To: art@ietf.org Importance: High X-Priority: 1 (Highest) User-Agent: Horde Application Framework 5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; DelSp=Yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box439.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explodingmoon.org X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Source-L: Yes X-Exim-ID: 1fiZO4-002whk-0x X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: (box439.bluehost.com) [127.0.0.1]:44157 X-Source-Auth: pradeep@explodingmoon.org X-Email-Count: 1 X-Source-Cap: ZXhwbG9kaTQ7ZXhwbG9kaTQ7Ym94NDM5LmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Org: HG=bhcustomer;ORG=bluehost; X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: [art] Soliciting some feedback for https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-emailwhois-pradeepkumarxplorer/ X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 06:23:03 -0000 Hello Soliciting some feedback for https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-emailwhois-pradeepkumarxplorer/ I am victim of spam emails. One of the emails efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com resulted me losing money and detained and harmed for a year and website destroyed. I have reported to authorities still my email gets SPAM or SPAM like messages from other sources and no actions has been taken against the spammer whom i want banned from using emails until money extorted is returned with compensatory damages. I would have wanted an email registry extension to internet whois service that has a field authorised/authenticated or unauthorised/spammer/unauthenticated that can be set by the registrar of the registry depending on any reports about use of emails for SPAM. As a user i should be able to add my name in the registry and by default has authenticated authorised status. This is the current output of http://whois.icann.org Contact Information Registrant Contact Name: Organization: Mailing Address: , None IN Phone: Ext: Fax: Fax Ext: Email: Admin Contact Name: Organization: Mailing Address: , Phone: Ext: Fax: Fax Ext: Email: Tech Contact Name: Organization: Mailing Address: , Phone: Ext: Fax: Fax Ext: Email: Whois of an email can have all this fields also, an authorised/authenticated or unauthosied/unauthenticated/spammer field and in my email client i should be able to see emails from only authorised. Given the magnitude of harm caused by spammers i think this is a necessary implementation. This is message source of an email i send from pradeep@explodingmoon.org to pradeepan88@hotmail.com. Can any of these fields be used?. The message source has the IP address of my location palakkad and i am using webmail logging into UTAH bluehost.com. can these headers be used? 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26 Jul 2018 14:41:38 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id C6F6D2002D9C7C; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 10:41:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: 26 Jul 2018 10:41:38 -0400 Message-Id: <20180726144138.C6F6D2002D9C7C@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: art@ietf.org Cc: pradeep@explodingmoon.org In-Reply-To: <20180726032617.Horde.Lbs3jBh8t8i13_hcsVTLDFR@box439.bluehost.com> Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Need some more feedback on httpi draft X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 14:41:43 -0000 In article <20180726032617.Horde.Lbs3jBh8t8i13_hcsVTLDFR@box439.bluehost.com> you write: > >I have made changes to the draft taking feedback from valdis i need some more >feedback from few others if possible > >https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-emailwhois-pradeepkumarxplorer-00.txt The structure of WHOIS is managed by ICANN for the generic TLDs, by the individual countries for ccTLDs, and by the RIRs for IP addresses. This isn't in scope for the IETF. R's, John From nobody Thu Jul 26 08:48:39 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BBCD131198 for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 08:48:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mrochek.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0qTeL8SZYsW8 for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 08:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [68.183.62.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD9C6130EAC for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 08:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01QVBLEULK7400065J@mauve.mrochek.com> for art@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 08:47:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=mrochek.com; s=201712; t=1532620042; bh=7ssCp5IDdc14WwKDOkIa6ivmVU2sHEiGYl6CfATX+NM=; h=Cc:Date:From:Subject:In-reply-to:References:To:From; b=jEPbZtgkr2oujnJYddo58nG7gZHI5UBoGM2TQkm3OD0yW+sz9ggMuGe7rfHJyTCYn u5udyDa+b14AkW7tIGSTBR7RRsG2F+x6DkJup69tJIRp6OQAWA9+xo2rWMckU1Axbr I7WS6Faq0xA6WCXwBi2eJUxdV4RFzPIiFsLHNBf0= MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01QVAGSPT5EO0002TJ@mauve.mrochek.com>; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 08:47:18 -0700 (PDT) Cc: art@ietf.org, pradeep@explodingmoon.org Message-id: <01QVBLET1D4Q0002TJ@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 08:18:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Ned Freed In-reply-to: "Your message dated Thu, 26 Jul 2018 10:41:38 -0400" <20180726144138.C6F6D2002D9C7C@ary.qy> References: <20180726032617.Horde.Lbs3jBh8t8i13_hcsVTLDFR@box439.bluehost.com> <20180726144138.C6F6D2002D9C7C@ary.qy> To: John Levine Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Need some more feedback on httpi draft X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 15:48:38 -0000 > In article <20180726032617.Horde.Lbs3jBh8t8i13_hcsVTLDFR@box439.bluehost.com> you write: > > > >I have made changes to the draft taking feedback from valdis i need some more > >feedback from few others if possible > > > >https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-emailwhois-pradeepkumarxplorer-00.txt > The structure of WHOIS is managed by ICANN for the generic TLDs, by > the individual countries for ccTLDs, and by the RIRs for IP addresses. > This isn't in scope for the IETF. +1 as far as existing whois services go. Of course people are free to create additional services that allow people to register their email addresses, but (a) Not sure what the business model would be and (b) This is, again, not a standards matter. As for creating a new Internet-level federated service, this is what X.500 was supposed to do - it was called, rather grandiosly, The Directory. A couple of pilot projects were attempted. All of them failed, mostly because essentially nobody was willing to put their directory of addresses online. And all this was back when privacy concerns were, if anything, an afterthought. These days the potential liability created by new laws make this idea completely impractical. tl;dr: This is a nonstarter. Ned From nobody Thu Jul 26 10:00:06 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E39E5130E0E for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 10:00:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.62 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.62 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.979, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m_nHxOK2CT0t for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 10:00:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dragon.pibit.ch (dragon.pibit.ch [94.231.81.244]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1D7F712F1AC for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 10:00:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dragon.pibit.ch (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FC51171C06D for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 18:59:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dragon.pibit.ch ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (dragon.pibit.ch [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JxtdiXppVo1p for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 18:59:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.43.123] (4.225.197.178.dynamic.wless.zhbmb00p-cgnat.res.cust.swisscom.ch [178.197.225.4]) by dragon.pibit.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 93D57171C057 for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 18:59:55 +0200 (CEST) To: art@ietf.org References: <20180726032617.Horde.Lbs3jBh8t8i13_hcsVTLDFR@box439.bluehost.com> <20180726144138.C6F6D2002D9C7C@ary.qy> <01QVBLET1D4Q0002TJ@mauve.mrochek.com> From: =?UTF-8?B?SGVybsOibmkgTWFycXVlcyAocOKJoXAgZm91bmRhdGlvbik=?= Openpgp: id=31733E0C598D3A1CF70955D6CB5738652768F7E9 Message-ID: <8b0dee94-6bf5-f93f-6127-7b2ad37c7040@pep.foundation> Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 18:59:54 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <01QVBLET1D4Q0002TJ@mauve.mrochek.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="uYhXvMjIhslLJSjTE4F7klwPtydpobeb6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Need some more feedback on httpi draft X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 17:00:04 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --uYhXvMjIhslLJSjTE4F7klwPtydpobeb6 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="wzV21tZsJcUGEo8eRg9sD0hTqTVo3k728"; protected-headers="v1" From: =?UTF-8?B?SGVybsOibmkgTWFycXVlcyAocOKJoXAgZm91bmRhdGlvbik=?= To: art@ietf.org Message-ID: <8b0dee94-6bf5-f93f-6127-7b2ad37c7040@pep.foundation> Subject: Re: [art] Need some more feedback on httpi draft References: <20180726032617.Horde.Lbs3jBh8t8i13_hcsVTLDFR@box439.bluehost.com> <20180726144138.C6F6D2002D9C7C@ary.qy> <01QVBLET1D4Q0002TJ@mauve.mrochek.com> In-Reply-To: <01QVBLET1D4Q0002TJ@mauve.mrochek.com> --wzV21tZsJcUGEo8eRg9sD0hTqTVo3k728 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------6AC92F343C69F8F07BA58001" Content-Language: de-CH This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6AC92F343C69F8F07BA58001 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 26.07.2018 17:18, Ned Freed wrote: > And all this was back when privacy concerns were, if anything, an after= thought. > These days the potential liability created by new laws make this idea > completely impractical. >=20 > tl;dr: This is a nonstarter. Especially considering that after GDPR went into effect lots of registries (e.g., in the US) went over to mask whois data; it would also create additional spam problems with data harvesting. --=20 p=E2=89=A1p foundation: https://pep.foundation/ --------------6AC92F343C69F8F07BA58001 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0xCB5738652768F7E9.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0xCB5738652768F7E9.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFWozlEBEADAIFgjylzzPH7JKRJPbiEGoSsrSaCrbWLdy4sNGD4fS7GsuZ9f o/E9iYzC7WwGhN8rB4jsLv/ZfGVbAsmpypvZdReVs/BPidR8Vo1WMOK3lww1L6j8 7UV7TwUzG72u0zMXCUWMtX3+7kWZVlohXPCzDe7xyLu5tdfPWIAxDrI3h/+a4qAR ySVo8RwzILDwjbLF8at0w52oTRIWcr9CAus8ktRKBhc3MiUsSXHGgZLujUsXKAYg Vmh53uEVsjigeHZh6XPrzQPTnQ/VDcqNSRl4n+fQ2e/sZV7CQttcqb9zfj8P6Lyk jG3pe1AUSm9A0o75bi8PUluPWyH0wdt4D29xabFFyBANyYqKiLyZvnBqGSkqswnW 00QoYtMaEBh7nyuoUCa0bTMCRn8NaXRCnuINx+E2llqJqeQ0sMJ5WSQe4RbkWRsF 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OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEMXM+DFmNOhz3CVXWy1c4ZSdo9+kFAltZ/goACgkQy1c4ZSdo 9+kKwhAAhSjo+h+mVZSQEPpv4RnEBdbRq9nWKGWaKLw368RNcrV6tldYK2D3/Rw8 87aO0bvIUUgmzThy5weHSEKbs/+6CBaw40xEZ7PU+8oET7nLSyHjpNBN74ELti2G 3Xx+CfQVoUXkXtAan3IdJy9MpC1alMblPQuXnBj9a23JkgmmCL1JnvkVFc/+lDiW vcHXBsizZmKlQtp1iqKfBtBh5C77OjZSKe+8CIB5BDKcXM2R19GF98h9HMzJJUGP pg4nT69B9yGedh+/qs4F6P4GXeBXUKRdQA4r7zEZp62fqDbA3dQJ9m5JvmmVqgyb Amnppgw1g606iIYf4QNNs979CX7yoQwquivE4gBrOzArtOURUZke8vIIh2mpS1KP kJr08g1MlRwmAjU9FO9AXChHza7RcnZFW6IPjiEkCP8OrTdiM69q4S4o1iA+YMr3 R0I75skqkJrS2op6BBcRtjXF3oJFkuHT9CsdeijIzYs1xQ2LZovZ5xP5zcs2BQh2 PtRpXGM657Yq9sFhVGautP0h+2kh5DlmCV0Pj2PFM+0v26JmP240d785fZ52ItCe xVs7+BHYB3+u1ef5PBY8yh9iQifnJ0JKBJSx84iHzpApakyjT2v1v5AuFRp8Ohre Ci4r1kXe5kX70hrGWnV3m0ujLuUKPla7T10dMJJy8Q1ffP/oE5w= =zvN7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --uYhXvMjIhslLJSjTE4F7klwPtydpobeb6-- From nobody Thu Jul 26 21:52:27 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9270130E73 for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 21:52:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.662 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.662 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.5, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=1.164, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=explodingmoon.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vWeFYuRk39zV for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 21:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy7-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy7-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [70.40.196.235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2BE05130E3C for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 21:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmgw13.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.13]) by gproxy7.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FC9C216F05 for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 22:42:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from box439.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.239]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id iuaLfzLXQYe1jiuaLfuFli; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 22:42:38 -0600 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=explodingmoon.org; s=default; h=MIME-Version:Content-Type:In-Reply-To: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Message-ID:Date:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=xeqkCOm+IclwEcbC4wh1Pz1IB3PUOYC84Fxx0jQhxGQ=; b=XyW+D3ha4pBaXgl4Q41HW18oh xxiraUohe3oSoDfOTu8x4r5P8qVe+Dl4x3amUNvhlDRI/COBosZweM6X9hw4D0Er2FzNMeA0LqVF+ QJGtbjpy2HZXorHb9kzJDksFNcX9Q6+E44+o/nVSQaw7FaalqWUADuYlFPY8xXGPvEU7/iWCIfReq z9E5oPvhElakMFG3ugDu690ncXYxEJiDX1Y6uYQApI/jWnHQiv1wphT+Ix6awVzU6mMRgAGrcCsNS fWi0LV5IXQVexwahWUElN27uKN7YEDmvZhL/n736p2mYCNq2x1DwUJxfApkVEOV8udz1vuC33yQBX 4v3i8Rc9g==; Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=31139 helo=box439.bluehost.com) by box439.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1fiuaL-001YuP-Nf; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 22:42:37 -0600 Received: from 112.133.236.212 ([112.133.236.212]) by box439.bluehost.com (Horde Framework) with HTTPS; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 22:42:37 -0600 Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 22:42:37 -0600 Message-ID: <20180726224237.Horde.Ty5Qj8l5hRiZCh5vsOQe2_P@box439.bluehost.com> From: pradeep@explodingmoon.org To: John Levine Cc: icann@icann.org, art@ietf.org, valdis.kletnieks@vt.edu References: <20180726032617.Horde.Lbs3jBh8t8i13_hcsVTLDFR@box439.bluehost.com> <20180726144138.C6F6D2002D9C7C@ary.qy> In-Reply-To: <20180726144138.C6F6D2002D9C7C@ary.qy> User-Agent: Horde Application Framework 5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; DelSp=Yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box439.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explodingmoon.org X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Source-L: Yes X-Exim-ID: 1fiuaL-001YuP-Nf X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: (box439.bluehost.com) [127.0.0.1]:31139 X-Source-Auth: pradeep@explodingmoon.org X-Email-Count: 2 X-Source-Cap: ZXhwbG9kaTQ7ZXhwbG9kaTQ7Ym94NDM5LmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Need some more feedback on httpi draft X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 04:52:25 -0000 This is what i remember sending yesterday, may be i am wrong https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pradeepkumarxplorer-httpi/ This above is the revised draft for httpi taking feedback from valdis >> I have made changes to the draft taking feedback from valdis i need >> some more >> feedback from few others if possible >> >> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-emailwhois-pradeepkumarxplorer-00.txt > > The structure of WHOIS is managed by ICANN for the generic TLDs, by > the individual countries for ccTLDs, and by the RIRs for IP addresses. > > This isn't in scope for the IETF. You mean to say whois email should have been implemented or can only be supported by icann.org?. > > R's, > John From nobody Thu Jul 26 22:31:47 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B8B1130E9C for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 22:31:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.662 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.662 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.5, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=1.164, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=explodingmoon.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ka21njqXdvvl for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 22:31:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy4-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy4-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.23.142]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E750E130E1C for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 22:31:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmgw10.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.10]) by gproxy4.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2047176387 for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 23:04:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from box439.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.239]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id iuvefg3OVuL2Qiuvef8q0n; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 23:04:38 -0600 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=explodingmoon.org; s=default; h=MIME-Version:Content-Type:Subject:To:From: Message-ID:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=bBRgOxH0stKdbgWIWRPORHR8jnJRysQs7cKbwQ2AZbE=; b=TGxsFjmbhrkvZGbFcstllk6vlI 2brcpGWtRENnMZvw+Y1f1vEe6PJlPl19gDAADXnpowZplNgophf0r4MCEOaAUMq1wB5A4ur36VbSi UGVMVWaPPjJi5iTZx07ngif2S5GZtDUa9dRv199JSH50u0Xjr0ezr54x2bSaTMsVrpHnCt3yfwMxC Uil7wNJJ1FIHw8AYEnvYjMSGIwA1rHb+gv3+qXBgaKw51J6Lf8ydqZ8fNnRH2rxfCGqxCpKeYo96R 34aZsP8wEONItsIEIHHI0X63rD7oaGf5uFPwzCQhYkOSix6JITvk+bBImoYuKdRsOvbj+zcmC7e15 taWs3dvQ==; Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=22847 helo=box439.bluehost.com) by box439.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1fiuve-001jGP-AU; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 23:04:38 -0600 Received: from 112.133.236.212 ([112.133.236.212]) by box439.bluehost.com (Horde Framework) with HTTPS; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 23:04:38 -0600 Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 23:04:38 -0600 Message-ID: <20180726230438.Horde.Xg504r7eG3dtrafRNVk_0BF@box439.bluehost.com> From: pradeep@explodingmoon.org To: art@ietf.org, hernani.marques@pep.foundation User-Agent: Horde Application Framework 5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; DelSp=Yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box439.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explodingmoon.org X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Source-L: Yes X-Exim-ID: 1fiuve-001jGP-AU X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: (box439.bluehost.com) [127.0.0.1]:22847 X-Source-Auth: pradeep@explodingmoon.org X-Email-Count: 2 X-Source-Cap: ZXhwbG9kaTQ7ZXhwbG9kaTQ7Ym94NDM5LmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: [art] whois email X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 05:31:45 -0000 On 26.07.2018 17:18, Ned Freed wrote: > And all this was back when privacy concerns were, if anything, an > afterthought. > These days the potential liability created by new laws make this idea > completely impractical. > > tl;dr: This is a nonstarter. Especially considering that after GDPR went into effect lots of registries (e.g., in the US) went over to mask whois data; it would also create additional spam problems with data harvesting. How do you control SPAM then?. How do you say an email is authorised or a spammer in a registry that can be queried by the email software/protocols. Spammers can get emails from not only WWW but ISP's and social media like facebook twitter also.whois of email can have only one public field authorised or unauthorised. From nobody Fri Jul 27 02:43:48 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB6D0130E9E for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 02:43:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mrochek.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Xm7xXNZCnvBa for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 02:43:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [68.183.62.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 72CFD130DDA for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 02:43:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01QVCMU50JQO0008YH@mauve.mrochek.com> for art@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 02:38:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=mrochek.com; s=201712; t=1532684322; bh=Ttcu1h8in6XVMDVXO0Jd8neytMcvOmSDIGFZOOAyTog=; h=Cc:Date:From:Subject:In-reply-to:References:To:From; b=gwFnWiIL5+CyT3NsAhxz7y9jHaegmYa+z5g1wYEF28u6Pdh3Rxd1aalwCY0sKFMr9 DOexK01gug2TxyOXemGng0P7jVRt9fsb5Y2Y+qTur1PuJAaBUxSemBpOWhLB4RgVFU 5waSpUHVlSfedRUlqg4h3hBe/y87q2LYHFYuuICY= MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii; Format=flowed; DelSp=Yes Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01QVCMG8WF680002TJ@mauve.mrochek.com>; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 02:38:39 -0700 (PDT) Cc: art@ietf.org, hernani.marques@pep.foundation Message-id: <01QVCMU3B82S0002TJ@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 02:36:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Ned Freed In-reply-to: "Your message dated Thu, 26 Jul 2018 23:04:38 -0600" <20180726230438.Horde.Xg504r7eG3dtrafRNVk_0BF@box439.bluehost.com> References: <20180726230438.Horde.Xg504r7eG3dtrafRNVk_0BF@box439.bluehost.com> To: pradeep@explodingmoon.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] whois email X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 09:43:48 -0000 > On 26.07.2018 17:18, Ned Freed wrote: > > And all this was back when privacy concerns were, if anything, an > > afterthought. > > These days the potential liability created by new laws make this idea > > completely impractical. > > > > tl;dr: This is a nonstarter. > Especially considering that after GDPR went into effect lots of > registries (e.g., in the US) went over to mask whois data; it would also > create additional spam problems with data harvesting. > How do you control SPAM then?. How do you say an email is authorised > or a spammer in a registry that can be queried by the email > software/protocols. Spammers can get emails from not only WWW but > ISP's and social media like facebook twitter also.whois of email can > have only one public field authorised or unauthorised. This is neither the time nor the place to provide you with a tutorial on the basics of spam control. Suffice it to say it's being done without the benefit of your proposal. Ned From nobody Fri Jul 27 21:22:05 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6652D130E54 for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 21:22:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.837 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.837 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=1.164, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=explodingmoon.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f25Iob-PmQEF for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 21:22:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy3-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy3-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.30.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E455F130E50 for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 21:22:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmgw15.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.15]) by gproxy3.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04E3F41429 for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 22:14:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from box439.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.239]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id jGcBfM017j0sojGcBfJnWU; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 22:13:59 -0600 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=explodingmoon.org; s=default; h=MIME-Version:Content-Type:In-Reply-To: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Message-ID:Date:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=aG8v4LlsoScdcsOJ8OxQvvYNzRRicbqEG9AxdXt3JiY=; b=CLrwNfQpO0uUe/dq/+fsUeXPm tvBYxucj4xQODk/TBCjbNE15SEgMoWWhsRrE2Qz3nlop2/FRfBjNMTQCMq/h6jUDn+LwEUidx05zX qJEmXrhdaELprEp9pE31EoRIj+OMvGSkWmT7/QySXRu+XbLjPRX7Sks0IhbwhPb6PUtYI5e+Sw44M 3CXBU4ac/SIpe0Io+5Kk4zwd+rAbcxBsUqESsUqChUzjBWTAirtJySWMpVZCMeaq+DXzs2aiwbX+x LNwdJAbVGI5O7POhEX3TvY1mljuLXxY+FNXswfL8C9VFgjzl/38cF0J0wanpNlLQBEX5kytPBYf1D aUZwVfWfA==; Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=11071 helo=box439.bluehost.com) by box439.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1fjGcB-000YXm-Hl; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 22:13:59 -0600 Received: from 112.133.229.97 ([112.133.229.97]) by box439.bluehost.com (Horde Framework) with HTTPS; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 22:13:59 -0600 Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 22:13:59 -0600 Message-ID: <20180727221359.Horde.vDea-BzaaJR7kb9xOsou32v@box439.bluehost.com> From: pradeep@explodingmoon.org To: Ned Freed Cc: art@ietf.org, hernani.marques@pep.foundation References: <20180726230438.Horde.Xg504r7eG3dtrafRNVk_0BF@box439.bluehost.com> <01QVCMU3B82S0002TJ@mauve.mrochek.com> In-Reply-To: <01QVCMU3B82S0002TJ@mauve.mrochek.com> User-Agent: Horde Application Framework 5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; DelSp=Yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box439.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - explodingmoon.org X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Source-L: Yes X-Exim-ID: 1fjGcB-000YXm-Hl X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: (box439.bluehost.com) [127.0.0.1]:11071 X-Source-Auth: pradeep@explodingmoon.org X-Email-Count: 2 X-Source-Cap: ZXhwbG9kaTQ7ZXhwbG9kaTQ7Ym94NDM5LmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Org: HG=bhcustomer;ORG=bluehost; X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] whois email X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 04:22:04 -0000 Quoting Ned Freed : >> On 26.07.2018 17:18, Ned Freed wrote: > >>> And all this was back when privacy concerns were, if anything, an >>> afterthought. >>> These days the potential liability created by new laws make this idea >>> completely impractical. >>> >>> tl;dr: This is a nonstarter. > >> Especially considering that after GDPR went into effect lots of >> registries (e.g., in the US) went over to mask whois data; it would also >> create additional spam problems with data harvesting. > >> How do you control SPAM then?. How do you say an email is authorised >> or a spammer in a registry that can be queried by the email >> software/protocols. Spammers can get emails from not only WWW but >> ISP's and social media like facebook twitter also.whois of email can >> have only one public field authorised or unauthorised. > > This is neither the time nor the place to provide you with a tutorial > on the basics of spam control. Suffice it to say it's being done without > the benefit of your proposal. > > Ned No, i give you a simple solution to SPAM control. To have an whois email standard and a field that can be queried authorised/unauthorised in the email software. You talk like only engineers, not email users. I dont need your tutorial, i need a solution. My life is in danger because of email spammers. I proposed a solution in the draft. I need to say in my email only emails from authorised should be recieved. A spammer is a spammer, it cannot be determined by the content of the email, but by his/her past actions/emails. In addition i should be able to say i want to only hear from those who have a phone number and those who can disclose their phone numbers.A email registry standard is necessary. Pradeep Kumar Xplorer From nobody Sat Jul 28 08:04:36 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2847130F04 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 08:04:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mrochek.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2GC8glx9M-CX for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 08:04:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [68.183.62.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2BD5C130DC8 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 08:04:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01QVECC55SPC000E6U@mauve.mrochek.com> for art@ietf.org; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 07:59:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=mrochek.com; s=201712; t=1532789968; bh=52BC0TFy2839Qv/qzUH3Mq1R7sZnOI6d/aCeC5ovFB8=; h=Cc:Date:From:Subject:In-reply-to:References:To:From; b=E1aOtiK8B5SNoIsZu8AcNRO4URD/sTkxJ72Zjm6+0juCKnLYyB2m2T8hJdzbvjyvn V4oElh0uBCgvRaYWx4f13moPxqxff5swz7QQa57t3xN2WH/VP9BWtMBzEp5NXAZFcq 5PjCqRpV7fOsZDXiqCj14dKYPrqfB9xessFUGPgM= MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii; format=flowed; DelSp=Yes Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01QVCMG8WF680002TJ@mauve.mrochek.com>; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 07:59:24 -0700 (PDT) Cc: Ned Freed , art@ietf.org, hernani.marques@pep.foundation Message-id: <01QVECC3EM5G0002TJ@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 07:55:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Ned Freed In-reply-to: "Your message dated Fri, 27 Jul 2018 22:13:59 -0600" <20180727221359.Horde.vDea-BzaaJR7kb9xOsou32v@box439.bluehost.com> References: <20180726230438.Horde.Xg504r7eG3dtrafRNVk_0BF@box439.bluehost.com> <01QVCMU3B82S0002TJ@mauve.mrochek.com> <20180727221359.Horde.vDea-BzaaJR7kb9xOsou32v@box439.bluehost.com> To: pradeep@explodingmoon.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] whois email X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 15:04:35 -0000 And with this you enter FUSSP territory: https://www.rhyolite.com/anti-spam/you-might-be.html My assessement stands: Your proposal is completely unworkable. And with that I'm done. Ned > Quoting Ned Freed : > >> On 26.07.2018 17:18, Ned Freed wrote: > > > >>> And all this was back when privacy concerns were, if anything, an > >>> afterthought. > >>> These days the potential liability created by new laws make this idea > >>> completely impractical. > >>> > >>> tl;dr: This is a nonstarter. > > > >> Especially considering that after GDPR went into effect lots of > >> registries (e.g., in the US) went over to mask whois data; it would also > >> create additional spam problems with data harvesting. > > > >> How do you control SPAM then?. How do you say an email is authorised > >> or a spammer in a registry that can be queried by the email > >> software/protocols. Spammers can get emails from not only WWW but > >> ISP's and social media like facebook twitter also.whois of email can > >> have only one public field authorised or unauthorised. > > > > This is neither the time nor the place to provide you with a tutorial > > on the basics of spam control. Suffice it to say it's being done without > > the benefit of your proposal. > > > > Ned > No, i give you a simple solution to SPAM control. To have an whois email > standard and a field that can be queried authorised/unauthorised in the email > software. You talk like only engineers, not email users. > I dont need your tutorial, i need a solution. My life is in danger because of > email spammers. I proposed a solution in the draft. I need to say in my email > only emails from authorised should be recieved. A spammer is a > spammer, it cannot > be determined by the content of the email, but by his/her past actions/emails. > In addition i should be able to say i want to only hear from those who > have a phone number and those who can disclose their phone numbers.A > email registry standard is necessary. > Pradeep Kumar Xplorer From nobody Sat Jul 28 08:19:39 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49DA0130F93 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 08:19:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 48quQ-qZKwMd for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 08:19:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.nic.fr (mx4.nic.fr [IPv6:2001:67c:2218:2::4:12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BD538130F8B for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 08:19:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx4.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 3B13D28023C; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 17:19:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mx4.nic.fr (Postfix, from userid 500) id 33D652804D4; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 17:19:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay01.prive.nic.fr (relay01.prive.nic.fr [IPv6:2001:67c:2218:15::11]) by mx4.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BE1D28023C; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 17:19:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from b12.nic.fr (b12.users.prive.nic.fr [10.10.86.133]) by relay01.prive.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 279EA6422740; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 17:19:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: by b12.nic.fr (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 16701400E9; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 17:19:32 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 17:19:32 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: pradeep@explodingmoon.org Cc: Ned Freed , art@ietf.org, hernani.marques@pep.foundation Message-ID: <20180728151932.ln4py6jh3gdmmtsd@nic.fr> References: <20180726230438.Horde.Xg504r7eG3dtrafRNVk_0BF@box439.bluehost.com> <01QVCMU3B82S0002TJ@mauve.mrochek.com> <20180727221359.Horde.vDea-BzaaJR7kb9xOsou32v@box439.bluehost.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20180727221359.Horde.vDea-BzaaJR7kb9xOsou32v@box439.bluehost.com> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 9.5 X-Kernel: Linux 4.9.0-6-amd64 x86_64 X-Charlie: Je suis Charlie Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170113 (1.7.2) X-Bogosity: No, tests=bogofilter, spamicity=0.319775, version=1.2.2 X-PMX-Version: 6.0.0.2142326, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2018.7.28.150616 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] whois email X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 15:19:37 -0000 On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 10:13:59PM -0600, pradeep@explodingmoon.org wrote a message of 46 lines which said: > No, i give you a simple solution to SPAM control. Are you aware that hundreds of bright people worked on the subject of spam fighting in the last twenty years? Thinking you can solve it by yourself, without prior experience, and with just one simple proposal, means either that you are completely delusional, or that you are an incredible genius (in that case, you don't need the IETF). > You talk like only engineers, not email users. Well, this is the IETF, after all. Yes, people here are supposed to be engineers. > I dont need your tutorial, i need a solution. Like most vexing and complicated problems (fighting crime, reducing global warming, suppressing inequalities and discriminations), there is, IMHO, zero probability to find "a solution" if, by this, you mean a very simple technique that will solve 100 % of the problem, without any bad consequences. These sort of problems (spam included) can and should be attacked but probably cannot be completely eliminated. Otherwise, you're welcome to try. The Internet is permissionless, after all. Tim Berners-Lee and Robert Cailliau asked nobody's permission before deploying the World Wide Web. Set up your registry and use it, if you want. From nobody Sun Jul 29 17:58:29 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C049D130EBC for ; Sun, 29 Jul 2018 17:58:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.092 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.092 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06=1.592, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zzldo2H35j9K for ; Sun, 29 Jul 2018 17:58:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resqmta-ch2-11v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-ch2-11v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:43]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 65C8B130DEA for ; Sun, 29 Jul 2018 17:58:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resomta-ch2-05v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.101]) by resqmta-ch2-11v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTP id jw3hf9SXVV6ASjwW1fja6H; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 00:58:25 +0000 Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com ([IPv6:2601:192:4603:9471:222:fbff:fe91:d396]) by resomta-ch2-05v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTPA id jwVzfMSLCtDLzjwW0fDlYD; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 00:58:24 +0000 Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com (hobgoblin.ariadne.com [127.0.0.1]) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id w6U0wN9C007128; Sun, 29 Jul 2018 20:58:23 -0400 Received: (from worley@localhost) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7/Submit) id w6TLVUnx002899; Sun, 29 Jul 2018 17:31:30 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: hobgoblin.ariadne.com: worley set sender to worley@alum.mit.edu using -f From: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) To: pradeep@explodingmoon.org Cc: art@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <20180726230438.Horde.Xg504r7eG3dtrafRNVk_0BF@box439.bluehost.com> (pradeep@explodingmoon.org) Sender: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 17:31:30 -0400 Message-ID: <87r2jlohjh.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfCW7IzU05U0+T6ljYh0dI9U+CthxRTSHpPaHGosa/ycxjdGR1au68cuWWRKJtQAkLG0+Av7ZBSzIgYje2t/bqNygwX+eqmcn80r0FmsCouNKXCGKqnWp iJCJbhICuBZsuYpDLK1tlq50mzzZDUl4DiNP12Ci2YO4MrZ4jAuAiq3AIpF8jynL0YepygP+/3fIM17JcPlDjLWgMCGWCrI80oaavuwAsxpw4Vf45uvgBTG3 C/4bjs5759ladfAyoalvPVo1chbY6obcHGa5365W3zs= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] whois email X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 00:58:28 -0000 pradeep@explodingmoon.org writes: > How do you say an email is authorised > or a spammer in a registry that can be queried by the email > software/protocols. Spammers can get emails from not only WWW but > ISP's and social media like facebook twitter also.whois of email can > have only one public field authorised or unauthorised. Certainly, I'm no expert here, but various difficulties are obvious. For instance, you don't really need a pure registry, because you could use an alternative mechanism that is exactly as secure: the sender could incorporate into the e-mail headers whatever information the registry is to carry. And you can see the latter proposal adds no security. The problem is that the registry has to somehow certify something about the center, rather than just being a place than any person can put arbitrary data. (The obvious choices are that the sender is known to behave well, or that the sender has a particular legal identity.) And also the receiver has to be able to verify that the message was actually sent by the claimed sender (who you would look up in the registry). Basically this is the "public key infrastructure" problem. A quick check says that there are 41 RFCs with "PKI" in their titles. So a great deal of work has been done on that, and I don't think anyone thinks it has been satisfactorily solved. Then again, the problem of trust in non-online life has not been solved either. Dale From nobody Mon Jul 30 00:15:18 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82CBE130E52 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 00:15:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id prosYQGzzv0A for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 00:15:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.nic.fr (mx4.nic.fr [IPv6:2001:67c:2218:2::4:12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 98EBC130E36 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 00:15:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx4.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id A299E280127; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 09:15:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mx4.nic.fr (Postfix, from userid 500) id 9CD9A280281; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 09:15:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay01.prive.nic.fr (relay01.prive.nic.fr [IPv6:2001:67c:2218:15::11]) by mx4.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9535E280127; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 09:15:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from b12.nic.fr (b12.users.prive.nic.fr [10.10.86.133]) by relay01.prive.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DB4A6422740; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 09:15:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: by b12.nic.fr (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 859073FFCE; Mon, 30 Jul 2018 09:15:11 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 09:15:11 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: "Dale R. Worley" Cc: art@ietf.org Message-ID: <20180730071511.a54k6kx426rjx2t4@nic.fr> References: <20180726230438.Horde.Xg504r7eG3dtrafRNVk_0BF@box439.bluehost.com> <87r2jlohjh.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87r2jlohjh.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 9.5 X-Kernel: Linux 4.9.0-6-amd64 x86_64 X-Charlie: Je suis Charlie Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170113 (1.7.2) X-Bogosity: No, tests=bogofilter, spamicity=0.025499, version=1.2.2 X-PMX-Version: 6.0.0.2142326, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2018.7.30.70316 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] whois email X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 07:15:17 -0000 On Sun, Jul 29, 2018 at 05:31:30PM -0400, Dale R. Worley wrote a message of 32 lines which said: > The problem is that the registry has to somehow certify something > about the center, rather than just being a place than any person can > put arbitrary data. It's a bit more complicated. Take the example of a real email addresses registry, the PGP key servers (draft-koch-openpgp-webkey-service). You can put arbitrary data (a key claiming to be the key for 'Real Donald ') but there are also signatures attached to the keys, allowing people who wish to do so to perform some checking. > And also the receiver has to be able to verify that the message was > actually sent by the claimed sender (who you would look up in the > registry). For PGP (RFC 4880), this is done by signing the outgoing message. > I don't think anyone thinks it has been satisfactorily solved. We agree. The key registry hs a lot of issues. > Then again, the problem of trust in non-online life has not been > solved either. Yes, but the offline world has different properties. For instance, doing a Sybil attack, astroturfing, or creating sockpuppets is much more expensive.