From nobody Sun Feb 3 05:21:16 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2BEB12E036; Sun, 3 Feb 2019 05:21:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.874 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.874 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2=0.874, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=hotmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id edO4v1tVKoki; Sun, 3 Feb 2019 05:21:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from APC01-SG2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092253069.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.253.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B4C31271FF; 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Sun, 3 Feb 2019 13:20:57 +0000 Received: from HK0PR03MB4099.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::e878:b31b:f06d:6fd3]) by HK0PR03MB4099.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::e878:b31b:f06d:6fd3%2]) with mapi id 15.20.1601.016; Sun, 3 Feb 2019 13:20:57 +0000 From: pradeep xplorer To: "art@ietf.org" , "extra@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Need for associating Internet Unique names to device address and phone numbers and emails ability to send messages using sms and email Thread-Index: AQHUu4xItqZ3iWo25UWUK3jf3f9l1KXODrDO Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2019 13:20:57 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:F74030EEF046005070F8504535E87D86CFB41090A6916786FA8EA35653DEAA76; UpperCasedChecksum:2238F7FA0898A86FF5D03EB85F1ADF1C0D35A0CDCDE082137C4A6C3F1AB0A86C; SizeAsReceived:8592; Count:45 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [lVv+kta/+mmkC3HCBGyRdgjPCmHYO+K71fpT+offqxQ=] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; 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PCL:0; RULEID:(2390118)(7020095)(20181119070)(201702061078)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(201702181274)(2017031323274)(2017031324274)(2017031322404)(1601125500)(1603101475)(1701031045); SRVR:HK2APC01HT122; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: HK2APC01HT122: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(4566010)(82015058); SRVR:HK2APC01HT122; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:HK2APC01HT122; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: qqBDK9VjDLtgt6YA1vCvARWANqGREJJ4Ro3yy17bizZeGvGhu3/Vi5oMCecTTsgs Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_HK0PR03MB4099E838F005F0BF2351652EB76C0HK0PR03MB4099apcp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: 54485d23-c432-40fe-8436-6091d627118c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: aa08ee9f-9b70-4ada-78bf-08d689da6ee3 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: 54485d23-c432-40fe-8436-6091d627118c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 03 Feb 2019 13:20:57.5390 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HK2APC01HT122 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Need for associating Internet Unique names to device address and phone numbers and emails ability to send messages using sms and email X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2019 13:21:09 -0000 --_000_HK0PR03MB4099E838F005F0BF2351652EB76C0HK0PR03MB4099apcp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is a better description of the proposal and user requirement https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xplorer-device-association/ I am writing from risihikesh ramjula internet center Pradeep Kumar Xplorer ________________________________ --_000_HK0PR03MB4099E838F005F0BF2351652EB76C0HK0PR03MB4099apcp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is a better description of the proposal and user requirement

I am writing from risihikesh ramjula internet center
Pradeep Kumar Xplorer


--_000_HK0PR03MB4099E838F005F0BF2351652EB76C0HK0PR03MB4099apcp_-- From nobody Sun Feb 3 10:54:12 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DA9B130F26; Sat, 2 Feb 2019 22:49:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.875 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.875 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2=0.874, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=hotmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m4GtlpF1PM1s; Sat, 2 Feb 2019 22:49:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from APC01-PU1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092254029.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.254.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2C416130F1F; Sat, 2 Feb 2019 22:49:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hotmail.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=R1qJ+kL45bDXMyQtF/xnqJkEbxYOyp10NSK8xpl/7EY=; b=iFUEWkJwIlMc5G3WzvnlGn6rA9LTtAX+fHZPJHdbWKLT2yrXw2C1TbfMLcWhz2ICGO2OU67yENSHCk17Ar9JES14m2dMsZ9e/9Sh9RrXmJfspGIhnG8XQ/g4hiL37LsXYdEb0tF0LjjoZIN2n80JdlxTZHoYRRHge8fs4XtQvm2TPXtwAdfgr1bVLDWUfwQXHM1VAP4ga6FTYZUiLqApR+jz8t/LhrXcDHzxz5CNGpCspy6VsA2375Y6kBroogPNsyyQ0X6u1BSb5MX9EJal6SIPYNTfE0k3n/OJ09VEtaBeghvHuSY1EBgAujHcja5UWmQ3EWfiHUj7cjJX1/Zohg== Received: from HK2APC01FT011.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.248.57) by HK2APC01HT167.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.249.162) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1580.10; Sun, 3 Feb 2019 06:49:45 +0000 Received: from HK0PR03MB4099.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.152.248.60) by HK2APC01FT011.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.248.153) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.1580.10 via Frontend Transport; Sun, 3 Feb 2019 06:49:45 +0000 Received: from HK0PR03MB4099.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::e878:b31b:f06d:6fd3]) by HK0PR03MB4099.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::e878:b31b:f06d:6fd3%2]) with mapi id 15.20.1601.013; Sun, 3 Feb 2019 06:49:45 +0000 From: pradeep xplorer To: "art@ietf.org" , "extra@ietf.org" CC: "sovereignamber@hotmail.com" , "ladyofmanynames@gmail.com" , "ardenfire@yahoo.com" , "scottm@wayin.com" , "fmcreative@fantasymakers.com" , "icann@icann.org" , "mail@ashtangayoga.info" , "info@agamayoga.com" , "dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com" , "amyji2@gmail.com" , "larry.ellison@oracle.com" , "jack@twitter.com" , "info@yogaworks.com" , "scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil" , "john.c.gerspach@citi.com" , "rwalker@scscourt.org" , "askvisausa@visa.com" , "info@yogasource.com" , "indian_punk@outlook.com" , "larrypage@google.com" , "info@yogaalliance.org" , "mfoster@fosteremploymentlaw.com" , "zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com" , "sumbody@sumbody.com" Thread-Topic: Need for associating Internet Unique names to device address and phone numbers and emails ability to send messages using sms and email Thread-Index: AQHUu4xItqZ3iWo25UWUK3jf3f9l1A== Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2019 06:49:44 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:34D20A2EE7C06693475FA35B646975BDBA02C0647E5D035C88AD6297078965B4; UpperCasedChecksum:E7BA187D41D91F700BC8498B7AC28A30BAB35062955C658383BAA58FE1140D94; SizeAsReceived:8270; Count:43 x-tmn: [ON6S3dBeksWncXCMtJQ1j9SitoYqkVoWfaJCGeTcwjw=] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; HK2APC01HT167; 6:8FLKb6pDNOsv0O2c3VAFeRvTWl938eejUmJcZGarXqwzk4J42d1GFvNL7B34qP2QRKEiZgOttMRYn1vmNi5FlHgD1PsjDau9xjL26BACMtUfeqdtEkAdilTO9DxZ0F5aTuIz2ABtp3bGb9yy6zsUtsaeo4VMxnX2Yex8fWPhyGIGNEkUdrwo0tMRqeNeOfCCES5WOkd1Lc+k3rcfWwSEyjBJ+LvWyQe1CkPRlwm32/YG3pp6c37+vZWyyGTtlMG+iesdol866/uHjOnhygSJc4zNgOnuUgJCcHlDU5iu3MDpe+gg/U88JqM8SUaWZpsmntpABHCIzGbbJIaAjEEfDjnQ17of2bxNZQRMo5pWXKtghU6UM8GAz1n2JtDYHXqqQTbeTS4t6OuxuF4TH6nBVxk0+sOyR9dZ/cdSKVmQDw+R6a/yk5NyFlsRkMPv8fiZLtk/mYGsKLIFLTbLlJbsYQ==; 5:4RAmGUJIIzVX0ERvLvo/lKpQ/cKS3RDxsrdLtXULSg6O3TyB7N70Hrkqm63TUUaLGCtMobdeqpLgXuF6g0X3CbE0CjaZ9MTg9GVRQ6gjwQ31TVSJK5t7j42k0Cm5u6IU2LUowYDjNO4nB5/JVUdF7CjtEXSh0l70c52wPh2QlwXxmQh9jDsFeSvitgbwbThIWEVAyvEKXL5PkmqKME7C5Q==; 7:kIq608OnDhL6kdvGKdfXcCzZ6tOgnx4Q1AuFsDf7HRq/Tw2w34gAPBaEIHIRYSj+mw+tSAGbl9vY5pglWNkVv/jjWqQ08Sh0JaoXetGvGFIDjmx4RgE9qE8cRABhF72Z1ufctKdt1vz4Wqh9dbXtWQ== x-incomingheadercount: 43 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-ms-exchange-slblob-mailprops: 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 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390118)(7020095)(201702061078)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(201702181274)(2017031323274)(2017031324274)(2017031322404)(1601125500)(1603101475)(1701031045); SRVR:HK2APC01HT167; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: HK2APC01HT167: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(4566010)(82015058); SRVR:HK2APC01HT167; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:HK2APC01HT167; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: wAvDJPnPEQLd8TYAt1WIy74Lrkxryc4V+bn9nN9coTkV4Iv/bxZTQV5/bDso2k4U Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_HK0PR03MB40992846EB71CD520F11BA28B76C0HK0PR03MB4099apcp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: 54485d23-c432-40fe-8436-6091d627118c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b8815c86-c2b3-401e-eeb6-08d689a3c82a X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: 54485d23-c432-40fe-8436-6091d627118c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 03 Feb 2019 06:49:44.9294 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HK2APC01HT167 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 03 Feb 2019 10:54:11 -0800 Subject: [art] Need for associating Internet Unique names to device address and phone numbers and emails ability to send messages using sms and email X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2019 06:49:55 -0000 --_000_HK0PR03MB40992846EB71CD520F11BA28B76C0HK0PR03MB4099apcp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is a better description of the user requirement. I am writing from rishikesh ramjula internet center Pradeep Kumar Xplorer --_000_HK0PR03MB40992846EB71CD520F11BA28B76C0HK0PR03MB4099apcp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is a better description of the user requirement.
I am writing from rishikesh ramjula internet center
Pradeep Kumar Xplorer

--_000_HK0PR03MB40992846EB71CD520F11BA28B76C0HK0PR03MB4099apcp_-- From nobody Sun Feb 3 12:14:45 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA803127598 for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2019 12:14:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=garr.it Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 61b1zJyo_gNf for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2019 12:14:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from cyrus.dir.garr.it (cyrus.dir.garr.it [193.206.158.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8181A1286E7 for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2019 12:14:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from cyrus.dir.garr.it ([10.2.2.51]) by cyrus-mailhub1.dir.garr.it (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-8) with ESMTPS id x13KEZgB003058 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sun, 3 Feb 2019 21:14:35 +0100 Received: internal info suppressed Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2019 21:14:34 +0100 (CET) From: Claudio Allocchio X-X-Sender: claudio@mac-allocchio3 To: pradeep xplorer cc: art@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (OSX 67 2015-01-07) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=garr.it; s=cyrus; t=1549224875; bh=ICI9mvG0d+ozpETcSZ9blF14T9stVslvBE92bCxrDqw=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=Xa65gSScSyCVBKmgJWDPqXr/sOPhSb9t3QMdKIPd1uFUpuXkNg+YdtcWcHtvN5n7T K8KYKocvXPX9LPFxM3UPw7Uza2EhYtSmkDT5tu5yPJygfWE3oiAzT0lEtReW3jV/Pr j+isA5qSZfyIXYwB5n04xLwoCgPpUwXyndjnmFN0= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Need for associating Internet Unique names to device address and phone numbers and emails ability to send messages using sms and email X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2019 20:14:45 -0000 On Sun, 3 Feb 2019, pradeep xplorer wrote: > This is a better description of the user requirement. > I am writing from rishikesh ramjula internet center > Pradeep Kumar Xplorer * Need for associating Internet Unique names to device address - DNS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain_Name_System * and phone numbers - ENUM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_number_mapping * emails ability to send messages using sms and email - use any integrated messaging system. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Claudio Allocchio G A R R Claudio.Allocchio@garr.it Senior Technical Officer tel: +39 040 3758523 Italian Academic and G=Claudio; S=Allocchio; fax: +39 040 3758565 Research Network P=garr; A=garr; C=it; PGP Key: https://www.cert.garr.it/servizi/informazioni-su-pgp-keys From nobody Sun Feb 3 19:33:53 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D69412008A; Sun, 3 Feb 2019 19:33:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.875 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.875 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2=0.874, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=hotmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xbbJVZbv7r4A; 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Mon, 4 Feb 2019 07:00:49 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gulbrandsen.priv.no; s=mail; t=1549263649; bh=iW60yXK5rMLPAhNF62oXvvKa/LoXAW2c16QMC78R7SQ=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=rPBt+All5DAztxHUmnWWzVNQ6W3oEVssugU06Pi3ctHCIxKzS71moEg9cj9TzPPuE 2adHm0KMNvzna3od845XzHya8DFKlnYg1/lAtarDTY67UY9T6qoG14HCiXbuVfYJdo nn+5v0yqQ2MSk8N6qu5AoI81XcJfFhq7OfM7hiY4= Received: from arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no by stabil.gulbrandsen.priv.no (Archiveopteryx 3.2.0) with esmtpsa id 1549263648-2663-2661/9/116; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 07:00:48 +0000 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: pradeep xplorer Cc: Claudio Allocchio , extra@ietf.org, art@ietf.org Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 07:59:07 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: Trojita/0.7; Qt/5.7.1; xcb; Linux; Devuan GNU/Linux 2.0 (ascii) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [Extra] Need for associating Internet Unique names to device address and phone numbers and emails ability to send messages using sms and email X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2019 06:59:22 -0000 On Monday 4 February 2019 04:33:39 CET, pradeep xplorer wrote: > This is my device mac shown in my 40 dollar used samsung android > > B86CE8AAE76F > You have to send me a message just using this. Are you saying > its possible now using > Sms and email? That's the MAC device address of one of my devices too (not changed by me, correct as far as the software can possibly check), so to whom would Claudio's software send that, if he had such software? Arnt From nobody Sun Feb 3 23:48:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 006AB12008A; Sun, 3 Feb 2019 23:48:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.875 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.875 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2=0.874, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=hotmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wJA58fuPPmjU; Sun, 3 Feb 2019 23:48:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from APC01-HK2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092255038.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.255.38]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 70ACB1294FA; 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Mon, 4 Feb 2019 07:48:05 +0000 Received: from HK0PR03MB4099.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::e878:b31b:f06d:6fd3]) by HK0PR03MB4099.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::e878:b31b:f06d:6fd3%2]) with mapi id 15.20.1601.016; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 07:48:05 +0000 From: pradeep xplorer To: Arnt Gulbrandsen CC: Claudio Allocchio , "extra@ietf.org" , "art@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Extra] [art] Need for associating Internet Unique names to device address and phone numbers and emails ability to send messages using sms and email Thread-Index: AQHUu4xItqZ3iWo25UWUK3jf3f9l1KXOgw8AgAB6ggCAADmUgIAADVLl Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 07:48:05 +0000 Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:332CE8029D15B65D105129B8D6D59F075DE8033D791A175399966096BB0BDDD8; UpperCasedChecksum:42DDFEDB985A91E604482C3CD9DD245A0F44034FF3F70202F56E63919AB671D4; SizeAsReceived:7549; Count:46 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [40qCDDFpQA6YxqG9ALnqzGtWh5WeCDaUCuncXIdSau0=] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is definition of MAC i found Find the MAC Address of a Computer or Device. A Media Access Control (MAC) = address is a unique numeric identifier used to distinguish a device from ot= hers on a network. The address is assigned by the manufacturer, for Etherne= t and Wi-Fi cards. I have no idea why my MAC is same as your MAC.. may be i have to dig it out= using some other android actions ________________________________ From: Arnt Gulbrandsen Sent: Monday, February 4, 2019 12:29 PM To: pradeep xplorer Cc: Claudio Allocchio; extra@ietf.org; art@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Extra] [art] Need for associating Internet Unique names to de= vice address and phone numbers and emails ability to send messages using sm= s and email On Monday 4 February 2019 04:33:39 CET, pradeep xplorer wrote: > This is my device mac shown in my 40 dollar used samsung android > > B86CE8AAE76F > You have to send me a message just using this. Are you saying > its possible now using > Sms and email? That's the MAC device address of one of my devices too (not changed by me, correct as far as the software can possibly check), so to whom would Claudio's software send that, if he had such software? Arnt --_000_HK0PR03MB40999178A3809EF71E671161B76D0HK0PR03MB4099apcp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is definition of MAC i found
Fin= d the MAC Address of a Computer = or Device. A Media Access Control (MAC) address is a unique numeric identifier used to distin= guish a device from others on a = network. The address is assigned by the manufacturer, for Ethernet and Wi-F= i cards.

I have no idea why my MAC is same as your MAC.. may be i have to dig it out= using some other android actions


From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <= arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>
Sent: Monday, February 4, 2019 12:29 PM
To: pradeep xplorer
Cc: Claudio Allocchio; extra@ietf.org; art@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Extra] [art] Need for associating Internet Unique name= s to device address and phone numbers and emails ability to send messages u= sing sms and email
 
On Monday 4 February 2019 04:33:39 CET, pradeep xp= lorer wrote:
> This is my device mac shown in my 40 dollar used samsung android
>
> B86CE8AAE76F
> You have to send me a message just using this. Are you saying
> its possible now using
> Sms and email?

That's the MAC device address of one of my devices too (not changed by me, =
correct as far as the software can possibly check), so to whom would
Claudio's software send that, if he had such software?

Arnt

--_000_HK0PR03MB40999178A3809EF71E671161B76D0HK0PR03MB4099apcp_-- From nobody Mon Feb 4 01:18:25 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95E2B130E16; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 01:18:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.208 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.208 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mrochek.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7mYVk8hLDdJ4; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 01:18:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (unknown [66.159.242.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 87ED3124BF6; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 01:18:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01R2SRS9C8JK00M7Z2@mauve.mrochek.com>; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 01:13:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=mrochek.com; s=201712; t=1549271584; bh=d//P9jQVOxmm+bvPeGJBbzBJjsoqfbVXvhw1N0LnsxY=; h=Cc:Date:From:Subject:In-reply-to:References:To:From; b=OZiCaFyG0i4E0lHYY/w1KD0vZTmopc3Eae13AIuSwEAl8zqaodfy3GVi6+PAzsYdO hv+fN6CVjNi/55THrYTNlQh2A1y0sFMX/Uq99HDChKw5zjWu6pHQZx7RtIiPxgY5X9 0bIUwOGz9zdm0y+x0YBHoX0YcsCjQxeERrEgdUWE= MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii; Format=flowed Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01R2D2WCFLIO00004L@mauve.mrochek.com>; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 01:13:00 -0800 (PST) Cc: pradeep xplorer , extra@ietf.org, art@ietf.org, Claudio Allocchio Message-id: <01R2SRS7WJGS00004L@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2019 01:09:06 -0800 (PST) From: Ned Freed In-reply-to: "Your message dated Mon, 04 Feb 2019 07:59:07 +0100" References: To: Arnt Gulbrandsen Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [Extra] Need for associating Internet Unique names to device address and phone numbers and emails ability to send messages using sms and email X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2019 09:18:24 -0000 > On Monday 4 February 2019 04:33:39 CET, pradeep xplorer wrote: > > This is my device mac shown in my 40 dollar used samsung android > > > > B86CE8AAE76F > > You have to send me a message just using this. Are you saying > > its possible now using > > Sms and email? > That's the MAC device address of one of my devices too (not changed by me, > correct as far as the software can possibly check), so to whom would > Claudio's software send that, if he had such software? For many years the ethernet address of a series of different laptops I used was AA000400010A at work but something entirely different at home. That address was also used at most of our customer sites but assigned to a different system at each one. 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Mon, 4 Feb 2019 06:20:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bcrn6g6mrZO3 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 06:20:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1DFE2127B4C for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 06:20:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.34] ([217.91.35.233]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx102 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MfBsk-1gSx3T3MwE-00OqYh; Mon, 04 Feb 2019 15:20:41 +0100 To: pradeep xplorer Cc: "art@ietf.org" References: <2e9667a7-95ac-4db6-9a56-f5d3454ad9d5@gulbrandsen.priv.no> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 15:20:40 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:v42BKdgyppNMNjBY6zFwrl/zkerEyyO1+W9iGpBhTPRM7VpOFYB L1vBiBHmMT8wpNDGqaTaXqwT0vKj0MRiN3ZksyZfP6Ywq9HkmSH/h5h5XCQt1ziUXdOQMon 5rcGlwBLNMvx9Y5F9gzKOGIjF3cEishVsgEckdm4bsYDJsQaPQR1mMv0b1sE8D7iFIY+4gJ QrACJG/2i/hyFC6OUTQLw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:dJkDNQ/3sbg=:oTTOUN3hHSRx0cS8wXlCuB soEjqo9tP9ZWUDWc8d1AFNGFSsLaJBJ/cNviH4As+AUOPNt7sWmoGGFES7fV7ODVMn0MlsnjL A1o5kbbEifwwYL1oRnBR3EMwfHxsNaGDDidoDxQj9uOn47hkTrahCaFlCbUb952L4zuGEPemV 5G8Ybx/7jhqexiwuigLL39+hmLDEXgPMfhdxml1QlaJTjugTmtuj9effWLiX21BORgBM7+GcR MuR3cUCM4Fgj8QlmPr8A5aogeq02PcYMSEYzhUGYguGr5iCMf/kpvM+jyrwTK5Kj55M6qlyvI Uvkdblrm8+Shf2wUDUUrEvsb1mfMhdV5hF8AvgoAI3n5As5qPxSsYz6hyYNzoMXY1eP0jCHq1 1VHQHIukdOiSorkofziDS3YOdzspPw5kmdkxjLkVPdgfIJqmRqO5fGGTpweglUKQJcZ0dTmNv wggcNWkNj3lL5XtTtgud8NyPO9/kwnwB2qeavgqpdmi95Ix3XcsZlXXtfK4fRzrh4KOIowOZV X/pmoa+p49x63KqoWi5W/jQP93s2A6voRpvZvY9Z3+YTn98gDUotOLJWzbQe1wCs/fTgosSqd itZ9zodkRy7woQeVGfL3JCUs96vc/Rq+hTABy3pb/BzpGBFWIxI8H/VlF7OZw6NBUXyUjMh6J tyZLtg6N30o0/KIQOfJMHKOodHunGduz6FCT09ZiQacq1K5iLLlVGERcqPz9UNhHpbkxpwUA9 EEyJcdjjQTTKUon2B0mEiuKUyxKO85y6xlpDFxfnsBN+/ReoGvpHV901aeQojOpwHXMRoEPJ9 jn8HHeDCanKa/evoHpgZ2vS4yMk23dD4IvpYhNhIHeTnR8Cw3AmWkb9lgzwwjIiDLi3AIX9vj RO/6lG2DEbcECbEk9liUnC9oKH6qnof7PKxcjYzkbnlAMj7GNeSQz2Bb/IfCpwKQa+cnPnEOZ MCC4raz/N6g== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [Extra] Need for associating Internet Unique names to device address and phone numbers and emails ability to send messages using sms and email X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2019 14:20:48 -0000 On 2019-02-04 13:07, pradeep xplorer wrote: > ... FWIW, please stop forwarding off-list mails to the mailing list (unless you have the consent of the senders). Best regards, Julian From nobody Mon Feb 4 06:36:05 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C1C612D4F3; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 06:36:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.875 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.875 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2=0.874, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=hotmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BX17KsWmCBg0; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 06:35:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from APC01-PU1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092254081.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.254.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 51E0B127B4C; 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Mon, 4 Feb 2019 10:16:10 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.5-832-gba113d7-fmstable-20190201v1 X-Me-Personality: 567075 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <2e9667a7-95ac-4db6-9a56-f5d3454ad9d5@gulbrandsen.priv.no> <19ead1f9-84a0-4cee-9f9f-93737ce2095c@gulbrandsen.priv.no> Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2019 10:16:07 -0500 From: "Bron Gondwana" To: "Arnt Gulbrandsen" , "Pradeep Kumar Xplorer" Cc: "extra@ietf.org" , "art@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e06eac710caa497a9006ff28be1855be Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] =?utf-8?q?=5BExtra=5D_Need_for_associating_Internet_Unique?= =?utf-8?q?_names_to_device_address_and_phone_numbers_and_emails_ability_t?= =?utf-8?q?o_send_messages_using_sms_and_email?= X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2019 15:16:15 -0000 --e06eac710caa497a9006ff28be1855be Content-Type: text/plain Pradeep, if you feel you have been harassed please contact the ombudsteam at https://ietf.org/contact/ombudsteam/ Everybody else: please stop all discussion of this topic until this claim of harassment has been resolved. Let's make sure we do the right thing here. Thanks, Bron. On Tue, Feb 5, 2019, at 01:53, pradeep xplorer wrote: > Its an activity and ietf is powerful to influence companies selling products and offering services. I stated i need a solution as a website publisher. I am an ex sun company employee. I need now company income and a healthy personal life for my age and i repeated lack of knowledge who my website viewers are and their opportunism to exploit me led to my suffering. Off line response is harassment to me. > > Sent from MailDroid > > -----Original Message----- > From: Arnt Gulbrandsen > To: pradeep xplorer > Sent: Mon, 04 Feb 2019 20:45 > Subject: Re: [Extra] [art] Need for associating Internet Unique names to device address and phone numbers and emails ability to send messages using sms and email > > On Monday 4 February2019 15 :35:56 CET, pradeep xplorer wrote: > > I dont accept your decision to give me an off list reply i > > repeat i am a serious yoga guide using website being exploited > > and harmed. so you need to address it in the archives so i get a > > solution > > No, I don't need that. The IETF is a volunteer activity and you have no > claim on anyone's time. Your desire does not imply anyone else's need. > > Arnt > > > _______________________________________________ > art mailing list > art@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art > -- Bron Gondwana brong@fastmail.fm --e06eac710caa497a9006ff28be1855be Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Pradeep, if you feel you have been harassed please contact= the ombudsteam at http= s://ietf.org/contact/ombudsteam/

Everybody else: plea= se stop all discussion of this topic until this claim of harassment has = been resolved.  Let's make sure we do the right thing here.

Thanks,

Bron.
=

On Tue, Feb 5, 2019, at 01:53, pradeep xplorer wrote:
Its an activity and ietf is powerful to influence com= panies selling products and offering services. I stated i need a solutio= n as a website publisher. I am an ex sun company employee. I need now co= mpany income and a healthy personal life for my age and i repeated lack of knowledge who my website viewers are and their oppor= tunism to exploit me led to my suffering. Off line response is harassmen= t to me.

Sent from MailDroid

-----Original Message---= --
From: Arnt Gulbrandsen &l= t;arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>
To: pradeep xplorer <pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Mon, 04 Feb 2019 20:45
Subject: Re: [Extra] [art] Need for associat= ing Internet Unique names to device address and phone numbers and emails= ability to send messages using sms and email

On M= onday 4 February2019 15:35:56 CET, pradeep xp= lorer wrote:
> I dont ac= cept your decision to give me an off list reply i
> repeat i am a serious yoga guide using websit= e being exploited
> and = harmed. so you need to address it in the archives so i get a
<= div style=3D"font-family:Arial;"> > solution

No, I = don't need that. The IETF is a volunteer activity and you have no
claim on anyone's time. Your desi= re does not imply anyone else's need.

Arnt
<= div style=3D"font-family:Arial;">

_______________________________________________
art mailing list
art@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art


<= div class=3D"signature">-- 
 = ; Bron Gondwana
  brong@fastmail.= fm


--e06eac710caa497a9006ff28be1855be-- From nobody Mon Feb 4 07:41:10 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56A29130E84; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 07:41:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yYUKdWPNeY6A; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 07:41:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 54122130E81; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 07:41:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1gqgMp-0004rt-H1; Mon, 04 Feb 2019 10:41:03 -0500 Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2019 10:40:57 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: pradeep xplorer cc: extra@ietf.org, art@ietf.org Message-ID: <2FDF95ED8057DE7E6BD32DDF@PSB> In-Reply-To: References: <2e9667a7-95ac-4db6-9a56-f5d3454ad9d5@gulbrandsen.priv.no> <19ead1f9-84a0-4cee-9f9f-93737ce2095c@gulbrandsen.priv.no> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [Extra] Need for associating Internet Unique names to device address and phone numbers and emails ability to send messages using sms and email X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2019 15:41:08 -0000 Pradeep, I've tried to advise you offlist about topics like this and promptly had my note copied to the list, as you have done with Arnt. Based on experience, Julian's note asking you to not forward such messages represents the general consensus of the IETF community, but let me address the more technical side of the issue and make one last attempt to clarify; if this keeps up, I will then join others in what I assume they have done, which is to modify my mail system to simply drop your incoming messages and in urging the sergeants at arms and ADs to simply ban you from all IETF lists. This note would normally have been sent privately, but you have made it clear that would be a waste of time and energy. However, I'm not going to further clutter the list by responding to any attempt to turn this note into an extended on-list conversation. There are two main reasons for replying offlist to a posting to an IETF list. one is the one Arnt cited: you appear to be showing some basic misunderstanding or ignorance of fundamental issues underlying what you are proposing. Sending a response off list cuts down on-list noise from a mini-tutorial or discussion of a topic that most of those in the list are presumed to understand and, if there is simply a misunderstanding, it can provide an opportunity to clarify issues (without involving everyone on the list) and then to return to the list with a clarified version of the description or proposal. There is also an old principle in at least some cultures that, under most circumstances, it is better to criticize in private and praise in public. "You just don't understand this, let me try to explain it" is normally a very mild form of criticism if it is interpreted as criticism at all, but at least some of us prefer to keep such comments off-list, if only in the hope that comments will be taken in the constructive spirit in which they are intended rather that as a public attack. If you see some of such notes as abusive, you should certainly complain but, fwiw, I don't see anything abusive in Arnt's note, this note, or my earlier one that you forwarded to the list with a claim that I'm part of a conspiracy against you. The private notes of explanation have one more advantage in your particular situation (at least as I understand it). If one of us feels that there is something that affects the plausibility of one of your proposals and explains that to you off list, that is just a private conversation among colleagues. I hope people will extend me the same courtesy when I misunderstand or overlook something about one of my proposals. I misunderstand, overlook things, and explain badly more often than I would wish and Arnt, among many others, has been helpful and courteous enough to explain and to help me understand and deal with the difference between my ignorance and my sometimes-hasty and insufficient explanations. However, when you repost those explanations on list, you create a public record that either your expertise isn't as deep and broad as you have often claimed or that, regardless of what it might once have been, you haven't stayed current. Whatever else is going on with you and your situation, you don't benefit from that. Whether it is relevant to your decision to post Arnt's note back to the list or not, we have discussed topics like what appear to be attempts to justify technical proposals on the basis of your yoga practice and expertise, the problems with your web site and compensation, and so on. Those situations and associated difficulties may get you a more careful hearing than others might for the same proposals --they certain have from me-- but they are not going to get an otherwise-defective proposal accepted... and, as with the above, the public attempts may not be positive for your professional reputation. Arnt, myself, and others have been trying to help you, both generally and specifically to help formulate and present proposals that have a chance of succeeding. Your responding by reposting notes or claiming on-list that we are part of some conspiracy against you is not only inappropriate but discourages those efforts. regards, john --On Monday, February 4, 2019 14:35 +0000 pradeep xplorer wrote: > I dont accept your decision to give me an off list reply i > repeat i am a serious yoga guide using website being exploited > and harmed. so you need to address it in the archives so i get > a solution. > > Sent from MailDroid > > -----Original Message----- > From: Arnt Gulbrandsen > To: pradeep xplorer > Sent: Mon, 04 Feb 2019 19:06 > Subject: Re: [Extra] [art] Need for associating Internet > Unique names to device address and phone numbers and emails > ability to send messages using sms and email > > Offlist reply, since I don't want to bother the lists with a > tutorial on addressing. > > MAC addresses need to be unique within a collision domain, not > in the world. Half of the address space is set aside to the > scheme you've heard of, where manufacturers assign one or more > MACs each time they manufacture a device. However, since many > network devices don't have an manufacturer, the other half is > set aside for people who need or prefer to implement another > addressing scheme. > > This means that a public cloud vendors (which needs a MAC > address for each virtual server it rents out) can define its > an addressing scheme using the second half of the address > space, and so long as the cloud service's addresses are unique > within that building/area/company, everything works. > > If you rent a server at AWS, its MAC address can actually > change over time. > > Arnt > From nobody Mon Feb 4 10:35:31 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01FED130EE6; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 10:35:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.208 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.208 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mrochek.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BkXxNfs1RtHu; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 10:35:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (unknown [66.159.242.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9AD40130EE2; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 10:35:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01R2T242GLDC00LNZT@mauve.mrochek.com>; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 06:08:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=mrochek.com; s=201712; t=1549289289; bh=FJQbIphuawa7VQLbcyYQeIH81oHfJSNNNeP5utBYKcI=; h=Cc:Date:From:Subject:In-reply-to:References:To:From; b=MRnJ8lgxONOg4xtaStbaUHTPC58wRTuw7yVy3SYBgiZevFsNcSmlpTZeNccXQspZ1 2eNKmvs42GLnOUlcJ+NZkHqgndHeQdPiZtuGhaMoB8mPJgPbJwcQ4IVtWTxaV9NEnV C5UOvsapaH/0/z+htPubadkCe+ynbUHy1Vep0qQA= MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01R2D2WCFLIO00004L@mauve.mrochek.com>; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 06:08:01 -0800 (PST) Cc: Arnt Gulbrandsen , "extra@ietf.org" , "art@ietf.org" , Claudio Allocchio Message-id: <01R2T23Z3IA000004L@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2019 05:59:22 -0800 (PST) From: Ned Freed In-reply-to: "Your message dated Mon, 04 Feb 2019 12:44:43 +0000" References: <2e9667a7-95ac-4db6-9a56-f5d3454ad9d5@gulbrandsen.priv.no> To: pradeep xplorer Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [Extra] Need for associating Internet Unique names to device address and phone numbers and emails ability to send messages using sms and email X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2019 18:35:29 -0000 > You are talking those who impersonate with deliberate intention. On the contrary, the example I gave had nothing to do with impersonating anything. Like it or not, there are networks that require use of specific ethernet mac addresses. There are also cases where assuming the mac address of some other device is required. I do this myself at home with presenting an address to my modem because my ISP has some funny ideas about the meaning of mac addresses. > In absence of such forces device mac is supposed to be unique. Yes, the device mac is supposed to be unique, but the device mac isn't necessarily what a given device is constrained to use on the network. It's a strange and complicated world out there. Ned From nobody Mon Feb 4 11:35:55 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D537F130EEF; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 11:35:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.679 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.679 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HirKtm8pbceH; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 11:35:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AAF80130EED; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 11:35:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from MacBook-Pro.roach.at (99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id x14JZbf6077008 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 4 Feb 2019 13:35:38 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1549308940; bh=PTM8LSrOow2xHxYAKCs1d8qfDKjT8kakPY1izHacnGw=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=CE5GZ4Jmg0Qd2Gy1gl3UjglI5jJdRexa/LSNC0VX1ekBfBdFfrmaMLSoRDWb2paPa 2+mqUdpVQl0IWyKYp0qUORlikFT5AOc8XiR64Ms8vjWbT5wJ7Ko2weiy9jyH4WQVzJ fwyyQw0LdXwseuZWMWOtXzGoVhE8USL47mrw+sts= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228] claimed to be MacBook-Pro.roach.at To: pradeep xplorer , Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion Cc: "art-ads@ietf.org" , extra@ietf.org References: <2e9667a7-95ac-4db6-9a56-f5d3454ad9d5@gulbrandsen.priv.no> <19ead1f9-84a0-4cee-9f9f-93737ce2095c@gulbrandsen.priv.no> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <22171c38-e0a3-1b6b-8c3b-476d9a1c9984@nostrum.com> Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 13:35:31 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------5DB614A1D4E638FA5DE5699C" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [Extra] Need for associating Internet Unique names to device address and phone numbers and emails ability to send messages using sms and email X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2019 19:35:47 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------5DB614A1D4E638FA5DE5699C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pradeep -- I'm one of the IETF's ART area directors. We are responsible for ensuring that the ART mailing list is used in an appropriate fashion. As several people have pointed out, forwarding private emails to public mailing lists is inappropriate and unprofessional. If you continue to do so, your posting rights to the relevant mailing lists will again be removed. You have also received significant input from people regarding the feasibility of your proposal, including pointers to technologies that have some bearing on the problem you are trying to solve. Your fundamental proposal remains essentially unchanged and significantly under-specified, despite this input. It is clear that the basic idea has not received support from the ART community. Until you can provide a new and detailed proposal, discussion on this topic is now closed. Attempting to continue such discussion will also result in a removal of posting rights. Please note that repeated disruptive or inappropriate behavior can result in the removal of your posting rights for IETF mailing lists for a year or longer. If you engage in behaviors that result in blocking you from the ART mailing list again, we plan to begin the process for such a ban. This is your last warning on the subject. /Adam Roach, on behalf of the ART Area Directors On 2/4/19 8:52 AM, pradeep xplorer wrote: > Its an activity and ietf is powerful to influence companies selling > products and offering services. I stated i need a solution as a > website publisher. I am an ex sun company employee. I need now company > income and a healthy personal life for my age and i repeated lack of > knowledge who my website viewers are and their opportunism to exploit > me led to my suffering. Off line response is harassment to me. > > Sent from MailDroid > > -----Original Message----- > From: Arnt Gulbrandsen > To: pradeep xplorer > Sent: Mon, 04 Feb 2019 20:45 > Subject: Re: [Extra] [art] Need for associating Internet Unique names > to device address and phone numbers and emails ability to send > messages using sms and email > > On Monday 4 February 2019 15 :35:56 CET, pradeep xplorer > wrote: > > I dont accept your decision to give me an off list reply i > > repeat i am a serious yoga guide using website being exploited > > and harmed. so you need to address it in the archives so i get a > > solution > > No, I don't need that. The IETF is a volunteer activity and you have no > claim on anyone's time. Your desire does not imply anyone else's need. > > Arnt > > > _______________________________________________ > art mailing list > art@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art --------------5DB614A1D4E638FA5DE5699C Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Pradeep --

I'm one of the IETF's ART area directors. We are responsible for ensuring that the ART mailing list is used in an appropriate fashion.

As several people have pointed out, forwarding private emails to public mailing lists is inappropriate and unprofessional. If you continue to do so, your posting rights to the relevant mailing lists will again be removed.

You have also received significant input from people regarding the feasibility of your proposal, including pointers to technologies that have some bearing on the problem you are trying to solve. Your fundamental proposal remains essentially unchanged and significantly under-specified, despite this input. It is clear that the basic idea has not received support from the ART community. Until you can provide a new and detailed proposal, discussion on this topic is now closed. Attempting to continue such discussion will also result in a removal of posting rights.

Please note that repeated disruptive or inappropriate behavior can result in the removal of your posting rights for IETF mailing lists for a year or longer. If you engage in behaviors that result in blocking you from the ART mailing list again, we plan to begin the process for such a ban.

This is your last warning on the subject.

/Adam Roach, on behalf of the ART Area Directors



On 2/4/19 8:52 AM, pradeep xplorer wrote:
Its an activity and ietf is powerful to influence companies selling products and offering services. I stated i need a solution as a website publisher. I am an ex sun company employee. I need now company income and a healthy personal life for my age and i repeated lack of knowledge who my website viewers are and their opportunism to exploit me led to my suffering. Off line response is harassment to me.

Sent from MailDroid

-----Original Message-----
From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>
To: pradeep xplorer <pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Mon, 04 Feb 2019 20:45
Subject: Re: [Extra] [art] Need for associating Internet Unique names to device address and phone numbers and emails ability to send messages using sms and email

On Monday 4 February 2019 15:35:56 CET, pradeep xplorer wrote:
> I dont accept your decision to give me an off list reply i
> repeat i am a serious yoga guide using website being exploited
> and harmed. so you need to address it in the archives so i get a
> solution

No, I don't need that. The IETF is a volunteer activity and you have no
claim on anyone's time. Your desire does not imply anyone else's need.

Arnt 


_______________________________________________
art mailing list
art@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art


--------------5DB614A1D4E638FA5DE5699C-- From nobody Mon Feb 4 13:38:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BAE3126DBF for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 13:38:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vejn_QxRputG for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 13:38:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x532.google.com (mail-pg1-x532.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::532]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EBC1C124B0C for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 13:38:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x532.google.com with SMTP id d9so515486pgl.1 for ; Mon, 04 Feb 2019 13:38:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=9gL/JUjuxL/J87d8VozRIoSHwNJuYBKHuZbJ+2hTsjY=; b=Pu1jbu6excryWXqOLJWuVHJiWKn2IVql9COZDfUmp72WFQ62x65EifgV4ZQUDVpinK uND1r2Y3/ANDYtZsXdoOe71iKCPBUEiCHiWBSRcu9zr12pIaJ7lmf8jqQgDubb3ecIqT UxHDEsAANS7NHsyWFsA8zAj2vU0Haz97tmrdmrW65B0tQk+djjlyhQBPz+8hq90mPGka cXm6TOZWnq1E8O0SPdVUjXFmHeTjOV8+brKEQKliLSouHf7/AvTMjeqv1Afz7KW25n6P VoWvSalSvbNN9BrtxgVOicHqb5DLaQOtq9s1O8JtGRXKeGIJV3MNFl6gRoA1EwC9hGKv LzOg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject :date:message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=9gL/JUjuxL/J87d8VozRIoSHwNJuYBKHuZbJ+2hTsjY=; b=CtxgdQ0WHBCHiumgnMeU0Wm3WML8JY4Py7XQUXrU9S4OFD8sR+C1K8514qW3lids1i 7uuk5oO49Pb6olCnq3DJ2YjFrBvAG3mnuW2vJmJ4iFY0TE5atBDc6/GFCsvU8HlRe/wa nrVUU6JBmu3Bujv1Zna9cXrYlH6dEsQE+Bz9ZgjZJ/6Yx5b1s1yUg0NWWR80n/U1vLdb 6D8/PZck8rAzkUa91LRjLFYzgn7zQ3GygGQDMamf2p+KVFX3IJYREvOwK3dra9/KDnec 19kgeaYt7WfQLrJfd3dDbSRBA55UU44h4nqhYSQV30XJ5QsdUS+etTwcfJOBosyXnh7X Ht/w== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuZpTntGg6b/4oSh9ESYrlb0rG1LFd+VpsU7wRaagHBXiZVTMBO0 JLH5SLrzWkN6gyG3GMqdjQM2dvp9cg0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IYK3U4eMdE8dqw51wiAH7RAwJXzsMUpbDywVmqmhNTTlO2RmDoNZdnDSxuPSQQ35qzndkX0tA== X-Received: by 2002:a63:4744:: with SMTP id w4mr1358408pgk.110.1549316324974; Mon, 04 Feb 2019 13:38:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from TVPC (c-67-169-101-78.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [67.169.101.78]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 19sm1474360pfs.108.2019.02.04.13.38.43 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 04 Feb 2019 13:38:43 -0800 (PST) Sender: Larry Masinter From: Larry Masinter X-Google-Original-From: "Larry Masinter" To: "'John Levine'" , Cc: References: <87va251q01.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> <20190131182019.C9AAB200D8F70C@ary.qy> In-Reply-To: <20190131182019.C9AAB200D8F70C@ary.qy> Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 13:38:43 -0800 Message-ID: <036401d4bcd2$00ef16d0$02cd4470$@acm.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQIqTJvtHUTeNv//+blI5gKgcNdKc6UlCWGQ Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7578 (5616) X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2019 21:38:48 -0000 > In article <87va251q01.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> you write: > >> Section 4.7 says that "Senders SHOULD NOT generate any parts with a > Content-Transfer-Encoding header field." > > > >The "Original Text" gives an example, which seems to me to be correct. > >However, as the erratum notes, the example violates the SHOULD NOT in > >section 4.7. And as section 4.7 notes, "Currently, no deployed > >implementations that send such bodies have been discovered.", > >suggesting that the example is not representative of current practice. > > > >But the proposed "Corrected Text" is itself incorrect, in that the > >Content-Transfer-Encoding header is still present -- the given body > >isn't valid for quoted-printable. > > I'd leave it alone. The example makes sense as is -- we don't encourage > encoding the data but if you have to, here's how to do it. > > At most hold for update to either redo the example with no encoding or add > a warning about why this is a bad example. > +1 Larry -- https://LarryMasinter.net From sureshs@sskalkunte.info Wed Feb 13 21:22:56 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0280130FD4 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 21:22:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=sskalkunte.info Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tcniBhwZINOu for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 21:22:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail4.protonmail.ch (mail4.protonmail.ch [185.70.40.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 94079130FBD for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 21:22:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 05:22:42 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sskalkunte.info; s=protonmail; t=1550121770; bh=r574+iAzgh3FOttL3lNCK7OlalfT/ShGTt9Zecy5IG4=; h=Date:To:From:Reply-To:Subject:Feedback-ID:From; b=f/JO71pkyzTbvpaVmNrMVfA/vhYPivzMMrDbloDcL14mYN6Rk4VIG3M1dm9eAK/ea 3jxRv7i0eITK10NIxjCxabuPB62OHKWnzL4X34Gm087FdN+WWSSTZZ84pW81eFtMJS KrgXL6m8gxPjYXhbpQV4k73+LVrRP9VMwSjmaiYU= To: "art@ietf.org" From: "Suresh S." Reply-To: "Suresh S." 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YnI+PC9kaXY+ --b1_d57d401492bfc95ebb4af8e5d6dc5403-- From nobody Thu Feb 14 13:12:54 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B87712F1AB for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 13:12:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FORGED_MUA_EUDORA=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8Bs_nXttBLoH for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 13:12:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from host.presenceweb.org (host.presenceweb.org [67.222.106.46]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F13E9129532 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 13:12:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from 251.47.14.81.rev.sfr.net ([81.14.47.251]:5987 helo=MORFIN-PC.jefsey.com) by host.presenceweb.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1guOJK-0002Am-4H; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 22:12:49 +0100 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 22:12:33 +0100 To: "Suresh S." ,"art@ietf.org" From: JFC Morfin In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_39857303==.ALT" X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - host.presenceweb.org X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jefsey.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: host.presenceweb.org: authenticated_id: jefsey+jefsey.com/only user confirmed/virtual account not confirmed X-Authenticated-Sender: host.presenceweb.org: jefsey@jefsey.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Message-Id: <20190214211251.F13E9129532@ietfa.amsl.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] SMTP/IMAP extension to enable email escrow X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 21:12:53 -0000 --=====================_39857303==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I support this extension and would suggest a read-back/blockchain-like option. The header is sent with three optional fields : topic, text's url and hash value. Best JFCM At 06:22 14/02/2019, Suresh S. wrote: >Hello, > >I would like to suggest an extension to SMTP and IMAP. > >What: >- To enable a email originator send just the email header to a third >party who serves as an escrow. >- The objective of this extension is to introduce a measure of >accountability/responsiveness/customer orientation at the email recipient. >- When an email originator sends a message to a recipient requesting >a response, some businesses/organizations may not read the email >because it got categorized as spam or another reason resulting in >loss of email delivery within an organization which does not result >in an error response transmitted to the email originator. > >Use-case scenario: >- A business/organization which wishes to introduce transparency in >its handling of incoming email messages will use the services of an >independent email escrow agency (e.g. Better Business Bureau). >- Features of the independent email escrow agency: >+ Receives just the email header from the email originator. >+ When the email recipient responds to the email, the email escrow >agency receives a copy of just the header resulting in deleting the >email header received from the email originator. >+ If the email recipient does not respond within a finite amount of >time, (may be a month or another configurable time-frame which is >mutually understood between the escrow agency and business/organization), >++ The email escrow agency sends a reminder to the email recipient. >++ If email recipient does not respond within 7 business days (or >another configurable time-frame), the email escrow agency increments >a publicly visible record of number of email requests not responded. >++ If email recipient does respond beyond the stipulated time-frame >(7 business days or another value), the public record of email >responsiveness is decremented. > >Proposed extension: >- SMTP and IMAP would include 'ESCROW " > >Why: >- In the capacity of an individual (no leverage of an institution), >I have pursued a public interest advocacy since 2007 to advance >legal protection when common devices emitting potent energy are used >for crime*. Attempting to request subject matter expert >opinion/collaboration in science (material, molecular biology, >forensic), technology (microwave systems), law (theory and practice) >at academic, private research agencies and government, getting a >response has been a significant challenge. >- A business/organization offering transparency of one's >responsiveness which is measured by a third party email escrow >agency will help differentiate itself among competitors. >- Empowers an ecosystem of trust-building institutions who serve as >wardens of industry, NGO (Charity Navigator etc.) and government. > >Best Regards, >Suresh >Open Researcher profile, >https://orcid.org/0000-0002-7404-0705. > >[*] Please start from >https://competitionunlimited.wordpress.com/disclaimer/. > > > > > >Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. > >_______________________________________________ >art mailing list >art@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art --=====================_39857303==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I support this extension and would suggest a read-back/blockchain-like option. The header is sent with three optional fields : topic, text's url and hash value.
Best
JFCM

At 06:22 14/02/2019, Suresh S. wrote:
Hello,

I would like to suggest an extension to SMTP and IMAP.
 
What:
- To enable a email originator send just the email header to a third party who serves as an escrow.
- The objective of this extension is to introduce a measure of accountability/responsiveness/customer orientation at the email recipient.
- When an email originator sends a message to a recipient requesting a response, some businesses/organizations may not read the email because it got categorized as spam or another reason resulting in loss of email delivery within an organization which does not result in an error response transmitted to the email originator.
 
Use-case scenario:
- A business/organization which wishes to introduce transparency in its handling of incoming email messages will use the services of an independent email escrow agency (e.g. Better Business Bureau).
- Features of the independent email escrow agency:
+ Receives just the email header from the email originator.
+ When the email recipient responds to the email, the email escrow agency receives a copy of just the header resulting in deleting the email header received from the email originator.
+ If the email recipient does not respond within a finite amount of time, (may be a month or another configurable time-frame which is mutually understood between the escrow agency and business/organization),
++ The email escrow agency sends a reminder to the email recipient.
++ If email recipient does not respond within 7 business days (or another configurable time-frame), the email escrow agency increments a publicly visible record of number of email requests not responded.
++ If email recipient does respond beyond the stipulated time-frame (7 business days or another value), the public record of email responsiveness is decremented.
 
Proposed extension:
- SMTP and IMAP would include 'ESCROW <string>"
 
Why:
- In the capacity of an individual (no leverage of an institution), I have pursued a public interest advocacy since 2007 to advance legal protection when common devices emitting potent energy are used for crime*. Attempting to request subject matter expert opinion/collaboration in science (material, molecular biology, forensic), technology (microwave systems), law (theory and practice) at academic, private research agencies and government, getting a response has been a significant challenge.
- A business/organization offering transparency of one's responsiveness which is measured by a third party email escrow agency will help differentiate itself among competitors.
- Empowers an ecosystem of trust-building institutions who serve as wardens of industry, NGO (Charity Navigator etc.) and government.

Best Regards,
Suresh
Open Researcher profile, https://orcid.org/0000-0002-7404-0705.

[*] Please start from https://competitionunlimited.wordpress.com/disclaimer/.





Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.

_______________________________________________
art mailing list
art@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art
--=====================_39857303==.ALT-- From nobody Thu Feb 14 19:02:37 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31775130E8B for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 19:02:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.933 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.933 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=comcastmailservice.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f4VBRgsFgmLS for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 19:02:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from resqmta-ch2-03v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-ch2-03v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F84A130E7D for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 19:02:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from resomta-ch2-12v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.108]) by resqmta-ch2-03v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTP id uTjPgOVAP0R3KuTlpgFe27; Fri, 15 Feb 2019 03:02:33 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcastmailservice.net; s=20180828_2048; t=1550199753; bh=fXkUxyNFPr88H2uCJHu5N3401egPHUVjDzym5XBbZK0=; h=Received:Received:Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date: Message-ID; b=e7ZI2uB3kjSTwbfRlogZ80ny7kYRd/wFSBwQKOdETgNvhiS7dnN71iyvU2rhUyTpS Wh/5QvYVn60+tV+Y2wlyp3vdn6yJ7ayjODeZ/B/vZIZVVl1Ey8NaSuFCDAMfVnB4zZ U3Gj0iz/U3+lTbeKbPNjt8ifmhfcEaDldwgExfH5+Xrvy3SS8Nqq7TugK8KKpy+EmM 4AosnYrWsUFjRlEEJTkE6RCy5I0AAP2PM/9FhcQNOPcZD8t05ZE13eu4L+oK+2bqfF 4gxEudbuPk9yTnOYTvbZuzSV25JeO6CXUpLm+C1qRwX2cbiKkc0ePJDoTmDE2NVvDv xzVZuk0//+Yww== Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com ([IPv6:2601:192:4603:9471:222:fbff:fe91:d396]) by resomta-ch2-12v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTPA id uTlngh90xFPHiuTloggrRf; Fri, 15 Feb 2019 03:02:32 +0000 X-Xfinity-VMeta: sc=-100;st=legit Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com (hobgoblin.ariadne.com [127.0.0.1]) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id x1F22Yhi019298; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 21:02:34 -0500 Received: (from worley@localhost) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7/Submit) id x1F22Xlb019295; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 21:02:33 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: hobgoblin.ariadne.com: worley set sender to worley@alum.mit.edu using -f From: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) To: "Suresh S." Cc: art@ietf.org In-Reply-To: (sureshs=40sskalkunte.info@dmarc.ietf.org) Sender: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 21:02:33 -0500 Message-ID: <875ztlq05i.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] SMTP/IMAP extension to enable email escrow X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 03:02:36 -0000 "Suresh S." writes: > I would like to suggest an extension to SMTP and IMAP. > > What: > - To enable a email originator send just the email header to a third > party who serves as an escrow. > > - The objective of this extension is to introduce a measure of > accountability/responsiveness/customer orientation at the email > recipient. > > - When an email originator sends a message to a recipient requesting a > response, some businesses/organizations may not read the email because > it got categorized as spam or another reason resulting in loss of > email delivery within an organization which does not result in an > error response transmitted to the email originator. It would help a lot if you wrote a draft that explained in more detail how the mechanism is expected to work. Dale From nobody Fri Feb 15 01:20:25 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40567130F30 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2019 01:20:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1152-bit key) header.d=tana.it Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 97F3-UFUxWtE for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2019 01:20:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from wmail.tana.it (wmail.tana.it [62.94.243.226]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7DC98130F28 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2019 01:20:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tana.it; s=gamma; t=1550222415; bh=4UH1igtseemnPBMumoW5eg3PjC/ftO9ROQ8RcTsa9iE=; l=2082; h=To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=A/5qQxHPbNmeH+42fiqjCx/YFGuufsCGYBJOSxWeXx9XFHSrgOcDZvzQ2eL6QsD2U X66OwMN1w2zBRwQYdxBXLuJvVLmMEgnr3jLMmPvKAnIbyW8qfoyOMzIfoZUxV6RjPL g33UF8f3bp5jtA5APF/sB0rs8c9TxMjWRCsTf1oKCR8voLJLztSSemnR/h7ja Authentication-Results: tana.it; auth=pass (details omitted) Received: from [172.25.197.111] (pcale.tana [172.25.197.111]) (AUTH: CRAM-MD5 uXDGrn@SYT0/k) by wmail.tana.it with ESMTPA; Fri, 15 Feb 2019 10:20:15 +0100 id 00000000005DC082.000000005C66844F.000038E0 To: "Dale R. Worley" , "Suresh S." Cc: art@ietf.org References: <875ztlq05i.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> From: Alessandro Vesely Openpgp: id=0A5B4BB141A53F7F55FC8CBCB6ACF44490D17C00 Message-ID: <8b586055-3a8d-f173-c886-638c670b5240@tana.it> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 10:20:15 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <875ztlq05i.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] SMTP/IMAP extension to enable email escrow X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 09:20:23 -0000 On Fri 15/Feb/2019 03:02:33 +0100 Dale R. Worley wrote: > "Suresh S." writes: >> I would like to suggest an extension to SMTP and IMAP. >> >> What: >> - To enable a email originator send just the email header to a third >> party who serves as an escrow. >> >> - The objective of this extension is to introduce a measure of >> accountability/responsiveness/customer orientation at the email >> recipient. >> >> - When an email originator sends a message to a recipient requesting a >> response, some businesses/organizations may not read the email because >> it got categorized as spam or another reason resulting in loss of >> email delivery within an organization which does not result in an >> error response transmitted to the email originator. > > It would help a lot if you wrote a draft that explained in more detail > how the mechanism is expected to work. Some prior discussion may help. I don't know IMAP very much, but my understanding is that it is mostly about client/ server interactions, and leaves it to implementations to decide what is the server admins or 3rd parties ability to track users' actions. We all know that giant providers base their anti-spam and feedback loop policies on the results of tracking user actions using purposely written software. Most ESPs also forge their messages adding invisible images and tracking URLs, without caring whether recipients wish to introduce transparency in their handling of incoming email messages. Besides, we have return receipts and positive delivery notifications. How is ESCROW related with existing tracking practices? Is the message author supposed to learn the content of the appearing after the ESCROW keyword (which I assume is the the 3rd party agency)? Can the author decide which message is tracked on a per-message basis? What if the message is spam? What other actions can the recipient take, besides replying? I think that clarifying some points before a formal spec can be worthwhile. Best Ale -- From nobody Fri Feb 15 02:44:26 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB5F2130FA0 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2019 02:44:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=sskalkunte.info Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CvPf3HBEZkvy for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2019 02:44:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-40132.protonmail.ch (mail-40132.protonmail.ch [185.70.40.132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D22E12D4E9 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2019 02:44:19 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 10:44:15 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sskalkunte.info; s=protonmail; t=1550227457; bh=/z5uNNhxldX2K66uIT426/g7g08l3+g4UMItM221QKE=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Reply-To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From; b=z8VKl12QIbs6klL9t6v8oww1sL8OGSKq2ADPezf4i1JXLlCsJk9WXzbie58K+spLc 4YHtn4NCDh0m0D1hBJTvMUCsZaMEwiW00++HdV+T3+87+MyKgDsVvOVkWtfjZImhAL jp4cBk1UesGAwf27/UfvW8rKW1QbGkjNOj2sPz6A= To: Alessandro Vesely From: "Suresh S." Cc: "Dale R. Worley" , "art@ietf.org" Reply-To: "Suresh S." Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8b586055-3a8d-f173-c886-638c670b5240@tana.it> References: <875ztlq05i.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> <8b586055-3a8d-f173-c886-638c670b5240@tana.it> Feedback-ID: YZ-2io_4NUANLzRoIMW4EqYHASklei9uNUtnjvDDp5DYO12s0wRrP0OWhv_iJPXTPjM8HM_UrkI3i6-u6Q-ZiA==:Ext:ProtonMail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="b1_2b9c3a91bde989da64e7b54b6ee48941" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] SMTP/IMAP extension to enable email escrow X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 10:44:24 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --b1_2b9c3a91bde989da64e7b54b6ee48941 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I came across the following post after I started to write a document to pro= vide more clarity (not an IETF draft in the typical sense of what goes into= it) on what changes may be needed to existing protocol constructs. Before = I go further, I will share what I have. To address "Besides, we have return receipts and positive delivery notifica= tions.", far too many individuals/organizations who claim to serve the inte= rests of the public are nothing more than an abyss - silent to suffering (p= lease view https://competitionunlimited.wordpress.com). For those who canno= t afford to lobby law makers, physically visit subject matter experts, mobi= lize people/groups concerning matters of significant importance, email is t= he lifeline. > "How is ESCROW related with existing tracking practices?" Please view attached write-up. Concisely, tracking ensures message delivery= but whether the recipient responded is indeterminate. > "What other actions can the recipient take, besides replying?" To match word with deed (please see attached write-up for elaboration on th= is front), the recipient ought to reply for taking the role of being a guar= dian of society. > "Is the message author supposed to learn the content of the appe= aring after the ESCROW keyword (which I assume is the the 3rd party agency)= ?" Yes. I did not mean to add terminology that may be confusing, but did to co= nvey what exactly may be a change at the periphery. The string is nothing b= ut an email address. > "Can the author decide which message is tracked on a per-message basis?" Yes. > "What if the message is spam?" >From my visibility of spam handling (the attached write-up clearly disclaim= s email implementation/deployment experience), apart from the email Escrow = quiz the email originator to verify whether or not a message is spam there = may be more ingenious ways, but I do not know. Faithfully, Suresh =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 Original Me= ssage =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 On Friday, 15 February 2019 14:50, Alessandro Vesely wrote= : > On Fri 15/Feb/2019 03:02:33 +0100 Dale R. Worley wrote: > > > "Suresh S." sureshs=3D40sskalkunte.info@dmarc.ietf.org writes: > > > > > I would like to suggest an extension to SMTP and IMAP. > > > What: > > > > > > - To enable a email originator send just the email header to a thir= d > > > party who serves as an escrow. > > > > > > - The objective of this extension is to introduce a measure of > > > accountability/responsiveness/customer orientation at the email > > > recipient. > > > > > > - When an email originator sends a message to a recipient requestin= g a > > > response, some businesses/organizations may not read the email be= cause > > > it got categorized as spam or another reason resulting in loss of > > > email delivery within an organization which does not result in an > > > error response transmitted to the email originator. > > > > > > > It would help a lot if you wrote a draft that explained in more detail > > how the mechanism is expected to work. > > Some prior discussion may help. I don't know IMAP very much, but my > understanding is that it is mostly about client/ server interactions, and > leaves it to implementations to decide what is the server admins or 3rd p= arties > ability to track users' actions. We all know that giant providers base th= eir > anti-spam and feedback loop policies on the results of tracking user acti= ons > using purposely written software. Most ESPs also forge their messages add= ing > invisible images and tracking URLs, without caring whether recipients wis= h to > introduce transparency in their handling of incoming email messages. Besi= des, > we have return receipts and positive delivery notifications. > > How is ESCROW related with existing tracking practices? Is the message au= thor > supposed to learn the content of the appearing after the ESCROW > > keyword (which I assume is the the 3rd party agency)? Can the author deci= de > which message is tracked on a per-message basis? What if the message is s= pam? > What other actions can the recipient take, besides replying? > > I think that clarifying some points before a formal spec can be worthwhil= e. > > Best > Ale > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- --b1_2b9c3a91bde989da64e7b54b6ee48941 Content-Type: text/plain; name="draft-SMTP_IMAP_Extension.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=draft-SMTP_IMAP_Extension.txt QWJzdHJhY3QNClRoaXMgcHJvcG9zYWwgdG8gZXh0ZW5kIFNNVFAsIElNQVAgYW5kIHBvc3NpYmx5 IG90aGVyIHJlbGF0ZWQgcHJvdG9jb2wvc2VydmljZSBkZWZpbml0aW9ucyBzdHJpdmVzIHRvIGJl IG1lYW5pbmdmdWwgZW5vdWdoIHRvIGRlc2VydmUgZXh0ZW5zaW9uIHVuZGVyc2NvcmVkIGJ5IHRo 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ZGUgJ0VTQ1JPVyA8c3RyaW5nPicgdG8gdGhlIGhlYWRlciB3aGljaCB3b3VsZCBiZSBoYW5kbGVk IChkb21haW5zIHFhdWxpZmllZCBpbiBhZGRyZXNzIGZpZWxkKSBqdXN0IGxpa2UgYW55IG90aGVy IGFkZHJlc3MgZmllbGQuDQoNCk1vZGlmaWNhdGlvbiB0byBTTVRQIHRyYW5zZmVyIGNvbW1wb25l bnQ6DQpEZWxpdmVyIG9ubHkgdGhlIGVtYWlsIGhlYWRlciB0byBhZGRyZXNzIGluICdFc2Nyb3cn IGZpZWxkLg0KDQpSZWZlcmVuY2VzOg0KW1NNVFBdICAgS2xlbnNpbiwgSi4sICJTaW1wbGUgTWFp bCBUcmFuc2ZlciBQcm90b2NvbCIsIFJGQyA1MzIxLCBPY3RvYmVyIDIwMDguDQoNCltQT1AzXSAg IE15ZXJzLCBKLiBhbmQgTS4gUm9zZSwgIlBvc3QgT2ZmaWNlIFByb3RvY29sIC0gVmVyc2lvbiAz IiwgU1REIDUzLCBSRkMgMTkzOSwgTWF5IDE5OTYuDQoNCltJTUFQNF0gIENyaXNwaW4sIE0uLCAi SU5URVJORVQgTUVTU0FHRSBBQ0NFU1MgUFJPVE9DT0wgLSBWRVJTSU9OIDRyZXYxIiwgUkZDIDM1 MDEsIE1hcmNoIDIwMDMuDQoNCltNZXNzYWdlIFN1Ym1pc3Npb25dIEdlbGxlbnMsIFIuIGFuZCBL bGVuc2luLCBKLiwgIiBNZXNzYWdlIFN1Ym1pc3Npb24gZm9yIE1haWwiLCBTVEQ6IDcyLCBSRkM2 NDA5LCBOb3ZlbWJlciAyMDExLg0K --b1_2b9c3a91bde989da64e7b54b6ee48941-- From nobody Fri Feb 15 09:52:06 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23165130FD9 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2019 09:52:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1152-bit key) header.d=tana.it Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id okvc40tFnKSj for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2019 09:52:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from wmail.tana.it (wmail.tana.it [62.94.243.226]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9819313103C for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2019 09:52:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tana.it; s=gamma; t=1550253120; bh=YlyVo/l2TBUTMdLo200A/jLnhkEsUqju85aiciDTyn0=; l=3544; h=To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=CtVrSUxCx5f6/If0gSzh2szLMZ5SWwQrWf2CF5fk0XbpIcRe4hE8hl8GusoGrCxH9 vAPLyI99VmC5u5bqMG4f77b0uyaO5O7MOkPphIGUvAdTqFBpEsHE+bgkUZE6cJhq/v GMb6gV5yv9vEybkpFrVc8qrJ077+qHD40EFbPPcGFUlTjOjawbPgxs/yhgkhG Authentication-Results: tana.it; auth=pass (details omitted) Received: from [172.25.197.111] (pcale.tana [172.25.197.111]) (AUTH: CRAM-MD5 uXDGrn@SYT0/k) by wmail.tana.it with ESMTPA; Fri, 15 Feb 2019 18:51:59 +0100 id 00000000005DC013.000000005C66FC3F.000070E5 To: "Suresh S." Cc: "Dale R. Worley" , "art@ietf.org" References: <875ztlq05i.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> <8b586055-3a8d-f173-c886-638c670b5240@tana.it> From: Alessandro Vesely Openpgp: id=0A5B4BB141A53F7F55FC8CBCB6ACF44490D17C00 Message-ID: <6a7e0cbf-4f11-7617-177a-4511531dd2f6@tana.it> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 18:51:59 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] SMTP/IMAP extension to enable email escrow X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 17:52:05 -0000 Hi Suresh, On Fri 15/Feb/2019 11:44:15 +0100 Suresh S. wrote: > >> "How is ESCROW related with existing tracking practices?" > Please view attached write-up. Concisely, tracking ensures message delivery but whether the recipient responded is indeterminate. I have a couple of comments about that text: An email sent by an originator without an error indication (refusal based on policy, spam etc.) from the recipient's email server is assumed to be delivered to the inbox of the recipient. That is the original intention. If the message contains a virus, however, a bounce would likely result in the virus being delivered to someone who was not in fact the actual sender, but just another random email address on the real, hidden sender's list. That lead many operators to just silently drop infected messages. In the interest of the email system provide a useful purpose in situations when an email originator seeks help from organizations that position themselves to serve the public in the capacity of a government functionary, business/industry regulatory agency, NGO who claims to serve the interests of common people and organizations (academia and private) that subsist on government funding are answerable to the people who they project to enlighten/serve/protect. That kind of service is usually provided by ticketing systems, a.k.a. issue tracking systems. I never saw one where a third party agency is involved, but issue management is audited internally, possibly surveying users' satisfaction. >> "What other actions can the recipient take, besides replying?" > To match word with deed (please see attached write-up for elaboration on this front), the recipient ought to reply for taking the role of being a guardian of society. Some messages may just say "thank you, farewell". No need to reply. Or "You won, click here to get rich". No need to reply. >> "Is the message author supposed to learn the content of the appearing after the ESCROW keyword (which I assume is the the 3rd party agency)?" > Yes. I did not mean to add terminology that may be confusing, but did to convey what exactly may be a change at the periphery. The string is nothing but an email address. That requires some pinpointing. Let me try and be didactic (after your parenthesized note quoted below.) As an _SMTP extension_, the availability of an ESCROW and its email address appear after the user hit . (Perhaps he or she may be asked if they want to send the message header to that agency?) Positive DSNs are an SMTP extension which the user asks blindly before sending; return receipt are not SMTP extension, they are asked for, blindly, by setting a header field before sending. As an _IMAP extension_, it gets known to recipients when they connect to their inbox. It wouldn't be related to any particular message. >> "Can the author decide which message is tracked on a per-message basis?" > Yes. Good. >> "What if the message is spam?" > From my visibility of spam handling (the attached write-up clearly disclaims email implementation/deployment experience), apart from the email Escrow quiz the email originator to verify whether or not a message is spam there may be more ingenious ways, but I do not know. The determination of a message spamminess is totally subjective. There are techniques to catch blatant cases, but there are too many shades of gray to make sharply defined decisions automatically. Best Ale -- From nobody Fri Feb 15 13:08:15 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AE4D12426A for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2019 13:08:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=sskalkunte.info Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R2xNY1TQNyaC for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2019 13:08:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.protonmail.ch (mail1.protonmail.ch [185.70.40.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 58F3D130FE4 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2019 13:08:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 21:07:59 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sskalkunte.info; s=protonmail; t=1550264886; bh=vhcMCn7YyGHxuI6iIbrSCmDf0Q/e5hx6t0oEbZmYfG0=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Reply-To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From; b=btR0ejDW5CYu/IXQlI7pGYX12xU2wRX04x0w5VJYuOp7BAd0kCDjcja3CaYb4Rzyz tyjaQUkRrMmlZATjRXy+kiXJw5sdkfISYcgO6HsDZPCFaNiusbF1EY8M3kYlWoT0xI 9CSGbyvUKc1/AdztZjxP7ylFjPsGxpv+EyT7tXxk= To: Alessandro Vesely From: "Suresh S." Cc: "art@ietf.org" , "Dale R. Worley" Reply-To: "Suresh S." Message-ID: <2Z-zI_P-wTo_0iYWRGrATEYy7p_i8L7G1NmCLxAXtRMDTAMcTBAUJj4cCF8o8rIUOUKzaWnqayBeuQJI2O5eXiJEyng61INEIxOvlyUwtRQ=@sskalkunte.info> In-Reply-To: <6a7e0cbf-4f11-7617-177a-4511531dd2f6@tana.it> References: <875ztlq05i.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> <8b586055-3a8d-f173-c886-638c670b5240@tana.it> <6a7e0cbf-4f11-7617-177a-4511531dd2f6@tana.it> Feedback-ID: YZ-2io_4NUANLzRoIMW4EqYHASklei9uNUtnjvDDp5DYO12s0wRrP0OWhv_iJPXTPjM8HM_UrkI3i6-u6Q-ZiA==:Ext:ProtonMail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] SMTP/IMAP extension to enable email escrow X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 21:08:13 -0000 Dear Ale, The reasons for silent drops are many. From my personal experience, I can s= afely contend that virus was involved in my messages. I say this based on r= eceiving on vacation auto-responders from quiet a few interspersed with tho= se that do not. In the write-up I sent, I cover the ticketing system some employ but unfort= unately the majority do not. > Some messages may just say "thank you, farewell". No need to reply. > Or "You won, click here to get rich". No need to reply. When you write to someone in the capacity of who most certainly can help re= garding a need for law to protect unsuspecting/defenseless victims, medicin= e to detect when common sources emitting potent energy are used for crime, = that is not the intent, you want an answer. > As an _IMAP extension_, it gets known to recipients when they connect to = their > inbox. It wouldn't be related to any particular message. Appears you may be interpreting my intention from a _IETF nuance_ view refe= rred in my write-up. The intention of the proposal is that this feature wou= ld be available for each message sent just as one would choose to include o= r not a BCC field, I do not yet know how that is characterized in an IETF w= orking group. The transparent forum like the IETF that I have been used to especially as = a younger person if only was also available to address concerns at the inte= rsection of rule of law, science and technology, there would not be a condi= tion like what exists today - lawless behavior is uncaring of the cautious. Faithfully, Suresh =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 Original Me= ssage =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 On Friday, 15 February 2019 23:21, Alessandro Vesely wrote= : > Hi Suresh, > > On Fri 15/Feb/2019 11:44:15 +0100 Suresh S. wrote: > > > > "How is ESCROW related with existing tracking practices?" > > > Please view attached write-up. Concisely, tracking ensures message de= livery but whether the recipient responded is indeterminate. > > I have a couple of comments about that text: > > An email sent by an originator without an error indication (refusal based= on > policy, spam etc.) from the recipient's email server is assumed to be > delivered to the inbox of the recipient. > > That is the original intention. If the message contains a virus, however,= a > bounce would likely result in the virus being delivered to someone who wa= s not > in fact the actual sender, but just another random email address on the r= eal, > hidden sender's list. That lead many operators to just silently drop infe= cted > messages. > > In the interest of the email system provide a useful purpose in situation= s > when an email originator seeks help from organizations that position > themselves to serve the public in the capacity of a government functionar= y, > business/industry regulatory agency, NGO who claims to serve the interest= s > of common people and organizations (academia and private) that subsist on > government funding are answerable to the people who they project to > enlighten/serve/protect. > > That kind of service is usually provided by ticketing systems, a.k.a. iss= ue > tracking systems. I never saw one where a third party agency is involved,= but > issue management is audited internally, possibly surveying users' satisfa= ction. > > > > "What other actions can the recipient take, besides replying?" > > > To match word with deed (please see attached write-up for elaboration= on this front), the recipient ought to reply for taking the role of being = a guardian of society. > > Some messages may just say "thank you, farewell". No need to reply. > > Or "You won, click here to get rich". No need to reply. > > > > "Is the message author supposed to learn the content of the = appearing after the ESCROW keyword (which I assume is the the 3rd party age= ncy)?" > > > Yes. I did not mean to add terminology that may be confusing, but did= to convey what exactly may be a change at the periphery. The string is not= hing but an email address. > > That requires some pinpointing. Let me try and be didactic (after your > parenthesized note quoted below.) > > As an SMTP extension, the availability of an ESCROW and its email address > appear after the user hit . (Perhaps he or she may be asked if they= want > to send the message header to that agency?) Positive DSNs are an SMTP > extension which the user asks blindly before sending; return receipt are = not > SMTP extension, they are asked for, blindly, by setting a header field be= fore > sending. > > As an IMAP extension, it gets known to recipients when they connect to th= eir > inbox. It wouldn't be related to any particular message. > > > > "Can the author decide which message is tracked on a per-message basi= s?" > > > Yes. > > Good. > > > > "What if the message is spam?" > > > From my visibility of spam handling (the attached write-up clearly di= sclaims email implementation/deployment experience), apart from the email E= scrow quiz the email originator to verify whether or not a message is spam = there may be more ingenious ways, but I do not know. > > The determination of a message spamminess is totally subjective. There ar= e > techniques to catch blatant cases, but there are too many shades of gray = to > make sharply defined decisions automatically. > > Best > Ale > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------------------------------------------------- > > art mailing list > art@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art From nobody Fri Feb 15 14:01:12 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFE7C130E6F for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2019 14:01:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=sskalkunte.info Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yZ6p0OPdZ-dn for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2019 14:01:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail2.protonmail.ch (mail2.protonmail.ch [185.70.40.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B59E12D4F2 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2019 14:01:06 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 22:00:58 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sskalkunte.info; s=protonmail; t=1550268063; bh=woO9XWcSDKLmw6Mf7zYBS08UG/jFrNCt3QfUBjfI0Uw=; h=Date:To:From:Reply-To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Feedback-ID: From; b=oQAItYMf1m9WEgRb3tbCr1njJ/7FLmf9Xsi64GeUYoiabjZJ8PnHGnvZ20kGEHlgJ khUIP6i++AFPaKC/Rc2ELBs+fSdyEn7ozrTgL+q6O53Uk52FSXk0Ly21V/kTJNnclX gDTULfCqA4t+VkwMg8CSaqiQqZin8nE3zDGlRcf4= To: "art@ietf.org" From: "Suresh S." Reply-To: "Suresh S." Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2Z-zI_P-wTo_0iYWRGrATEYy7p_i8L7G1NmCLxAXtRMDTAMcTBAUJj4cCF8o8rIUOUKzaWnqayBeuQJI2O5eXiJEyng61INEIxOvlyUwtRQ=@sskalkunte.info> References: <875ztlq05i.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> <8b586055-3a8d-f173-c886-638c670b5240@tana.it> <6a7e0cbf-4f11-7617-177a-4511531dd2f6@tana.it> <2Z-zI_P-wTo_0iYWRGrATEYy7p_i8L7G1NmCLxAXtRMDTAMcTBAUJj4cCF8o8rIUOUKzaWnqayBeuQJI2O5eXiJEyng61INEIxOvlyUwtRQ=@sskalkunte.info> Feedback-ID: YZ-2io_4NUANLzRoIMW4EqYHASklei9uNUtnjvDDp5DYO12s0wRrP0OWhv_iJPXTPjM8HM_UrkI3i6-u6Q-ZiA==:Ext:ProtonMail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] SMTP/IMAP extension to enable email escrow X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 22:01:11 -0000 Thought I provide another perspective, the proposed method of transparency = is akin to giving visibility as much to those inside as much as those outsi= de an organization, metaphorically speaking it is like holding a mirror to = customer/constituent facing departments. Just as the Army during my service in the National Guard would quiz us afte= r returning from a deployment whether one has engaged in and/or have any in= formation of organized crime infiltrating the ranks, I hope organizations i= n civil society in general and those especially who take a guardian role ar= e vigilant of organized crime entering their employee base to cause an othe= rwise respected organization cut a sorry figure in the public eye. =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 Original Me= ssage =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 On Saturday, 16 February 2019 02:37, Suresh S. wrote: > Dear Ale, > > The reasons for silent drops are many. From my personal experience, I can= safely contend that virus was involved in my messages. I say this based on= receiving on vacation auto-responders from quiet a few interspersed with t= hose that do not. > > In the write-up I sent, I cover the ticketing system some employ but unfo= rtunately the majority do not. > > > Some messages may just say "thank you, farewell". No need to reply. > > Or "You won, click here to get rich". No need to reply. > > When you write to someone in the capacity of who most certainly can help = regarding a need for law to protect unsuspecting/defenseless victims, medic= ine to detect when common sources emitting potent energy are used for crime= , that is not the intent, you want an answer. > > > As an IMAP extension, it gets known to recipients when they connect to = their > > inbox. It wouldn't be related to any particular message. > > Appears you may be interpreting my intention from a IETF nuance view refe= rred in my write-up. The intention of the proposal is that this feature wou= ld be available for each message sent just as one would choose to include o= r not a BCC field, I do not yet know how that is characterized in an IETF w= orking group. > > The transparent forum like the IETF that I have been used to especially a= s a younger person if only was also available to address concerns at the in= tersection of rule of law, science and technology, there would not be a con= dition like what exists today - lawless behavior is uncaring of the cautiou= s. > > Faithfully, > Suresh > > =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 Original = Message =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 > On Friday, 15 February 2019 23:21, Alessandro Vesely vesely@tana.it wrote= : > > > Hi Suresh, > > On Fri 15/Feb/2019 11:44:15 +0100 Suresh S. wrote: > > > > > > "How is ESCROW related with existing tracking practices?" > > > > Please view attached write-up. Concisely, tracking ensures message = delivery but whether the recipient responded is indeterminate. > > > > I have a couple of comments about that text: > > An email sent by an originator without an error indication (refusal bas= ed on > > policy, spam etc.) from the recipient's email server is assumed to be > > delivered to the inbox of the recipient. > > That is the original intention. If the message contains a virus, howeve= r, a > > bounce would likely result in the virus being delivered to someone who = was not > > in fact the actual sender, but just another random email address on the= real, > > hidden sender's list. That lead many operators to just silently drop in= fected > > messages. > > In the interest of the email system provide a useful purpose in situati= ons > > when an email originator seeks help from organizations that position > > themselves to serve the public in the capacity of a government function= ary, > > business/industry regulatory agency, NGO who claims to serve the intere= sts > > of common people and organizations (academia and private) that subsist = on > > government funding are answerable to the people who they project to > > enlighten/serve/protect. > > That kind of service is usually provided by ticketing systems, a.k.a. i= ssue > > tracking systems. I never saw one where a third party agency is involve= d, but > > issue management is audited internally, possibly surveying users' satis= faction. > > > > > > "What other actions can the recipient take, besides replying?" > > > > To match word with deed (please see attached write-up for elaborati= on on this front), the recipient ought to reply for taking the role of bein= g a guardian of society. > > > > Some messages may just say "thank you, farewell". No need to reply. > > Or "You won, click here to get rich". No need to reply. > > > > > > "Is the message author supposed to learn the content of the appearing after the ESCROW keyword (which I assume is the the 3rd party a= gency)?" > > > > Yes. I did not mean to add terminology that may be confusing, but d= id to convey what exactly may be a change at the periphery. The string is n= othing but an email address. > > > > That requires some pinpointing. Let me try and be didactic (after your > > parenthesized note quoted below.) > > As an SMTP extension, the availability of an ESCROW and its email addre= ss > > appear after the user hit . (Perhaps he or she may be asked if th= ey want > > to send the message header to that agency?) Positive DSNs are an SMTP > > extension which the user asks blindly before sending; return receipt ar= e not > > SMTP extension, they are asked for, blindly, by setting a header field = before > > sending. > > As an IMAP extension, it gets known to recipients when they connect to = their > > inbox. It wouldn't be related to any particular message. > > > > > > "Can the author decide which message is tracked on a per-message ba= sis?" > > > > Yes. > > > > Good. > > > > > > "What if the message is spam?" > > > > From my visibility of spam handling (the attached write-up clearly = disclaims email implementation/deployment experience), apart from the email= Escrow quiz the email originator to verify whether or not a message is spa= m there may be more ingenious ways, but I do not know. > > > > The determination of a message spamminess is totally subjective. There = are > > techniques to catch blatant cases, but there are too many shades of gra= y to > > make sharply defined decisions automatically. > > Best > > Ale > > > > art mailing list > > art@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art > > art mailing list > art@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art From nobody Sat Feb 16 17:41:58 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C276128CF2 for ; Sat, 16 Feb 2019 17:41:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.875 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.875 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2=0.874, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=hotmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UprNOKlZRQTd for ; Sat, 16 Feb 2019 17:41:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from APC01-PU1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092254044.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.254.44]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B93CC124BF6 for ; Sat, 16 Feb 2019 17:41:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hotmail.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=KHodVAi2shYbikx+z2qZCSZFD90SW0qoe7sMkPDQFZY=; b=uwup/0rgp2hohAMrLvwlYRuTdRPHS+tGLh4BhCN+YfZfEktokD4WGJIj5quSpbw9ZWjHio1URc4dTKk8HDHfkfJMImsRuM/1mU9PT/qa85LRopmoWZ/ynASt/Voj8kT0QNI44QKmBrp4a77dertVYjpXxyZmM2MTyRCCYlPjcrpthikqvK1sj40WmMF7ayx5zi4vHJ+qdq2VaAyrgSTfjW5LObS9qW+UGjnD1Pvxm2KBfs8PqfV6AU501qlSTrmhgix3vuLuZGA4ilKSh4XHDLm8ZqON3d7p9HVGaxb6NPSMQiQAmgQt858xC1mAjWbjxQXu9FdhnCkLiLXQK1/y1A== Received: from HK2APC01FT021.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.248.59) by HK2APC01HT036.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.249.152) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1580.10; Sun, 17 Feb 2019 01:41:52 +0000 Received: from HK0PR03MB4099.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.152.248.60) by HK2APC01FT021.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.248.181) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1580.10 via Frontend Transport; Sun, 17 Feb 2019 01:41:52 +0000 Received: from HK0PR03MB4099.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::11a8:79d1:680a:284]) by HK0PR03MB4099.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::11a8:79d1:680a:284%5]) with mapi id 15.20.1643.008; Sun, 17 Feb 2019 01:41:52 +0000 From: pradeep xplorer To: "art@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: re escrow extension Thread-Index: AQHUxmGiouBqeksNjEehv3bBpqVlQw== Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2019 01:41:52 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:FF226430CAB3261D2E1CD7D599DA0CF6AED2ED711F3452D77678F4D8387C19C4; UpperCasedChecksum:BAC5502A961A6675F8FF44AF5B43BE9E186568109D6B4DCC092545EBB08E45CA; SizeAsReceived:6575; Count:42 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [Q7yO/jRleLg30HlqeNt9EkzVj3/wNX7k] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-incomingheadercount: 42 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390118)(7020095)(201702061078)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031323274)(2017031324274)(2017031322404)(1601125500)(1603101475)(1701031045); SRVR:HK2APC01HT036; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: HK2APC01HT036: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(4566010)(82015058); SRVR:HK2APC01HT036; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:HK2APC01HT036; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: RNASKjf0PZEIsA8CZGwHHOkwg7qWDXhTzI34sQnkNkNhWkcBqa28NgmWTAWASYek Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_HK0PR03MB40996B2F1CE97479F6E72B7CB7620HK0PR03MB4099apcp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: 54485d23-c432-40fe-8436-6091d627118c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: bdb370a2-6d31-4f44-bc4b-08d694791760 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: 54485d23-c432-40fe-8436-6091d627118c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 17 Feb 2019 01:41:52.2522 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HK2APC01HT036 Archived-At: Subject: [art] re escrow extension X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2019 01:41:57 -0000 --_000_HK0PR03MB40996B2F1CE97479F6E72B7CB7620HK0PR03MB4099apcp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To classify spam analysing whether recipient responded sounds good idea. I = am a website publisher who recieved only spam can that be used to prove wit= hout doubt cybercrime? --_000_HK0PR03MB40996B2F1CE97479F6E72B7CB7620HK0PR03MB4099apcp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To classify spam analysing whether recipient responded sounds good idea. I = am a website publisher who recieved only spam can that be used to prove wit= hout doubt cybercrime? --_000_HK0PR03MB40996B2F1CE97479F6E72B7CB7620HK0PR03MB4099apcp_-- From nobody Sat Feb 16 21:13:23 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D679124B0C for ; Sat, 16 Feb 2019 21:13:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.69 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.69 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=sskalkunte.info Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HS7gROBXhcWW for ; Sat, 16 Feb 2019 21:13:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail4.protonmail.ch (mail4.protonmail.ch [185.70.40.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B0A01228B7 for ; Sat, 16 Feb 2019 21:13:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2019 05:13:07 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sskalkunte.info; s=protonmail; t=1550380395; bh=tHL57O1Up1Y31J1sueUwMwBY/oA0cdja7VO6Ir3f8rg=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Reply-To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From; b=AFSx/uQmqNQFoe4eFTknZHyKhqYrRSkza+RAQFNdeuOeDmuPnsxWJchlA15EaM6MY D1HNhYCGRmeQTbUyBW4nQ0V6Co+ZCz6NUloXEUNL1OdG9aExNY5hMxb4jE7MWymAXX y56yqcfIp8R/0ukpeYNePx0kRoNoOCH2oMHXtdhA= To: pradeep xplorer From: "Suresh S." Cc: "art@ietf.org" Reply-To: "Suresh S." Message-ID: <-_w96Uwwb8iMAIC6On7Dnbq65wLLtN4ENriDRHb5OsvHUy68FWWO3sHEiob7P6BSutk1GZw8AoIiHmT6fRCa2nF0SgaAF-3LbG60_r9c73c=@sskalkunte.info> In-Reply-To: References: Feedback-ID: YZ-2io_4NUANLzRoIMW4EqYHASklei9uNUtnjvDDp5DYO12s0wRrP0OWhv_iJPXTPjM8HM_UrkI3i6-u6Q-ZiA==:Ext:ProtonMail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="b1_27ca9dd04bcfbc0f0a33431f3e21ddb1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] re escrow extension X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2019 05:13:21 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --b1_27ca9dd04bcfbc0f0a33431f3e21ddb1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PiBUbyBjbGFzc2lmeSBzcGFtIGFuYWx5c2luZyB3aGV0aGVyIHJlY2lwaWVudCByZXNwb25kZWQg c291bmRzIGdvb2QgaWRlYS4KVGhlIGVzY3JvdyBjYXBhYmlsaXR5IGRvZXMgbm90IGhlbHAgd2l0 aCBzcGFtIGFuYWx5c2luZywgcmF0aGVyIGl0IGhhcyB0byBjb21wZXRlIHdpdGggc3BhbS4gSSB1 c2UgdGhpcyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QgYXMgYW4gZXhhbXBsZSwgaXQgZGlzdGluZ3Vpc2hlcyB2YWxp ZCBtYWlsIGZyb20gbm90IGFuZCBwcm92aWRlcyB0aGUgbXVjaCBuZWVkZWQgdHJhbnNwYXJlbmN5 LiBJZiBwZW9wbGUvYWdlbmNpZXMgd2hvIGxpc3RlbmVkIHRvIHB1YmxpYyBncmlldmFuY2UvY29u Y2VybnMgcHJvdmlkZWQgdGhpcyBlYXNlIG9mIGFjY2VzcyB0byBhIGNvbW1vbiBwZXJzb24gaW4g Y2l2aWwgc29jaWV0eSBhbmQgcHJhY3RpY2VkIHRoaXMgbGV2ZWwgb2YgdHJhbnNwYXJlbmN5LCBJ IHdvdWxkIG5vdCBiZSBtYWtpbmcgdGhpcyBzdWdnZXN0aW9uIHRvIGluY2x1ZGUgZXNjcm93IGNh cGFiaWxpdHkuCgo+IEkgYW0gYSB3ZWJzaXRlIHB1Ymxpc2hlciB3aG8gcmVjaWV2ZWQgb25seSBz cGFtIGNhbiB0aGF0IGJlIHVzZWQKPiB0byBwcm92ZSB3aXRob3V0IGRvdWJ0IGN5YmVyY3JpbWU/ CklmIHlvdXIgcmVzaWRlbmNlL2J1c2luZXNzIGlzIGluIHRoZSBVLlMuLCB5b3VyIHF1ZXN0aW9u IHdvdWxkIGJlIGFuc3dlcmVkIGF0IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmNvbnN1bWVyLmZ0Yy5nb3YvYXJ0aWNs ZXMvMDI2Mi1zdG9wcGluZy11bnNvbGljaXRlZC1tYWlsLXBob25lLWNhbGxzLWFuZC1lbWFpbC4K CuKAkOKAkOKAkOKAkOKAkOKAkOKAkCBPcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlIOKAkOKAkOKAkOKAkOKAkOKA kOKAkApPbiBTdW5kYXksIEZlYnJ1YXJ5IDE3LCAyMDE5IDc6MTEgQU0sIHByYWRlZXAgeHBsb3Jl ciA8cHJhZGVlcGFuODhAaG90bWFpbC5jb20+IHdyb3RlOgoKPiBUbyBjbGFzc2lmeSBzcGFtIGFu YWx5c2luZyB3aGV0aGVyIHJlY2lwaWVudCByZXNwb25kZWQgc291bmRzIGdvb2QgaWRlYS4gSSBh bSBhIHdlYnNpdGUgcHVibGlzaGVyIHdobyByZWNpZXZlZCBvbmx5IHNwYW0gY2FuIHRoYXQgYmUg dXNlZCB0byBwcm92ZSB3aXRob3V0IGRvdWJ0IGN5YmVyY3JpbWU/ --b1_27ca9dd04bcfbc0f0a33431f3e21ddb1 Content-Type: text/html; 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CC: "art@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [art] re escrow extension Thread-Index: AQHUxmGiouBqeksNjEehv3bBpqVlQ6XjciuAgAAFAAA= Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2019 05:31:56 +0000 Message-ID: References: <-_w96Uwwb8iMAIC6On7Dnbq65wLLtN4ENriDRHb5OsvHUy68FWWO3sHEiob7P6BSutk1GZw8AoIiHmT6fRCa2nF0SgaAF-3LbG60_r9c73c=@sskalkunte.info> In-Reply-To: <-_w96Uwwb8iMAIC6On7Dnbq65wLLtN4ENriDRHb5OsvHUy68FWWO3sHEiob7P6BSutk1GZw8AoIiHmT6fRCa2nF0SgaAF-3LbG60_r9c73c=@sskalkunte.info> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-clientproxiedby: BMXPR01CA0024.INDPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:1096:b00:d::34) To HK0PR03MB4099.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:203:9e::10) x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:D8D4C84B0D49962DDF7653F147F6EC43BF99FEB7D460DF5E79BDCCF64063DBCD; UpperCasedChecksum:833C3B2D8A6EB04338000948E89BF9D7B4FA3819AAB5A4C3A690535E8BDE43DD; SizeAsReceived:8590; Count:64 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-mailer: MailDroid/4.91 (Android 4.2.2) x-tmn: [lo0u+cwV425fTM78Oml8tM1fU5/jLhaY] x-microsoft-original-message-id: x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-incomingheadercount: 64 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; 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CC: "art@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [art] re escrow extension Thread-Index: AQHUxmGiouBqeksNjEehv3bBpqVlQ6XjciuAgAAFAACAADz4gIAAEfmA Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2019 10:14:35 +0000 Message-ID: References: <-_w96Uwwb8iMAIC6On7Dnbq65wLLtN4ENriDRHb5OsvHUy68FWWO3sHEiob7P6BSutk1GZw8AoIiHmT6fRCa2nF0SgaAF-3LbG60_r9c73c=@sskalkunte.info> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-clientproxiedby: BM1PR0101CA0005.INDPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:1096:b00:18::15) To HK0PR03MB4099.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:203:9e::10) x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:CB0A289A953BF1547DFC9164C5779D3689EA0A3B6E358E67E21CE303F66C969C; UpperCasedChecksum:6090BC009E0600FD1DA93A93A79F5A60B49125CE2973AD86B58DE360F3E35B16; SizeAsReceived:8826; Count:64 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-mailer: MailDroid/4.91 (Android 4.2.2) x-tmn: [PTGaNElU/msgylMjQjH9AQb1X2WmxgYN] x-microsoft-original-message-id: 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--_000_HK0PR03MB4099FD395C3ED8CA6E571172B7620HK0PR03MB4099apcp_-- From nobody Sun Feb 17 03:10:56 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9171E128CF3 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2019 03:10:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=sskalkunte.info Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rIGlFKhnvaKd for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2019 03:10:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail4.protonmail.ch (mail4.protonmail.ch [185.70.40.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A7B00128B01 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2019 03:10:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2019 11:10:49 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sskalkunte.info; s=protonmail; t=1550401851; bh=sUT+0OqZ263+W1dIbZ5utgWrhjAJIxBeioC63Vee/WU=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Reply-To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From; b=W782obrK4ccDJt9Imv14zWFcslkjUmBLCFNqdK1SwkNExI1ciTihUgaBTdL7yucNA g+/KTcS9dmUG8C9DTAwrPddYjSmevq7vFeggs0rYNuIWfaCw7zWeKt34YXuXOaY+pD QWOCR3gq9KGVngsPGCw93k4Zlzj2SCZ3qsFC+tZo= To: pradeep xplorer From: "Suresh S." Cc: "art@ietf.org" Reply-To: "Suresh S." Message-ID: <10b1jTNIcNys83fSeCRBSxI1ORFz954dKPE-SMKHy-qsA8gwYhqxyctuHKxyiQfHULoVqL8YRrCGFajYGyofkIiIqvy3SjwNEkgQ0K5v_s4=@sskalkunte.info> In-Reply-To: References: <-_w96Uwwb8iMAIC6On7Dnbq65wLLtN4ENriDRHb5OsvHUy68FWWO3sHEiob7P6BSutk1GZw8AoIiHmT6fRCa2nF0SgaAF-3LbG60_r9c73c=@sskalkunte.info> Feedback-ID: YZ-2io_4NUANLzRoIMW4EqYHASklei9uNUtnjvDDp5DYO12s0wRrP0OWhv_iJPXTPjM8HM_UrkI3i6-u6Q-ZiA==:Ext:ProtonMail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] re escrow extension X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2019 11:10:55 -0000 > I have an objection that you are still not clearly > understanding what i am saying I have an objection that you may be advertising yourself on this list. If the domain names you authored contained information pertinent to this di= scussion (articles, instances of web-owner transparency, challenges a web-o= wner faced in providing response - manpower, volume of email etc.) all is w= ell. From nobody Mon Feb 18 14:09:01 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02DBA13104B for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2019 14:08:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.934 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.934 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=comcastmailservice.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9hnVTcPN-Bln for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2019 14:08:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from resqmta-ch2-12v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-ch2-12v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:44]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 65349131051 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2019 14:08:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from resomta-ch2-13v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.109]) by resqmta-ch2-12v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTP id viUqggbNUpFrSvr5sgkz2k; Mon, 18 Feb 2019 22:08:56 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcastmailservice.net; s=20180828_2048; t=1550527736; bh=YWhBwGZKyFEwqLYhoeJSzMn9Uwob5hXfE8ogD/MlFM8=; h=Received:Received:Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date: Message-ID; b=k5yNSNWbnLu1cvGZrK9RDDdttPLJzPX/pJXH0H2YZxSJ7PNAEQjUNAy5tbSPDKYS+ vCM1YsbfrWSoxBPcDl8uoFT5550ZnVFiy1c4oidKuVyGlzwq01OjkXu8XYnZM9cRjf b9jy8WQab6LaUZlFfinEY79OgbAhqpw/6rQHZoaLQMmas3/lI912W7l4DAEeiy7El0 4Fx7wvX0jvH7cB9NOFIpHcSPO9FBwHRvymuesQnc2c4RfY2sbawfm2HkIXRQNAAv6N fE5FCXsz9ha6503v/GHGMa3MlnowXuhQPx1jOjAEpognsjmLO41tkWj4Fz2TiDZiN4 IZpOmzQbNVgqg== Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com ([50.245.49.139]) by resomta-ch2-13v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTPA id vr5qgR6MKl1cIvr5rgPvFi; Mon, 18 Feb 2019 22:08:56 +0000 X-Xfinity-VAAS: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedutddrtddugdduvdeiucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuvehomhgtrghsthdqtfgvshhipdfqfgfvpdfpqffurfetoffkrfenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefhvffujghssedttddttddttddtnecuhfhrohhmpeifohhrlhgvhiesrghrihgrughnvgdrtghomhculdffrghlvgcutfdrucghohhrlhgvhidmnecukfhppeehtddrvdeghedrgeelrddufeelnecurfgrrhgrmhephhgvlhhopehhohgsghhosghlihhnrdgrrhhirggunhgvrdgtohhmpdhinhgvthephedtrddvgeehrdegledrudefledpmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpeifohhrlhgvhiesrghluhhmrdhmihhtrdgvughupdhrtghpthhtohepphhrrgguvggvphgrnhekkeeshhhothhmrghilhdrtghomhdprhgtphhtthhopegrrhhtsehivghtfhdrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-Xfinity-VMeta: sc=0;st=legit Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com (hobgoblin.ariadne.com [127.0.0.1]) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id x1IM8suc022687; Mon, 18 Feb 2019 17:08:54 -0500 Received: (from worley@localhost) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7/Submit) id x1IM8r1B022684; Mon, 18 Feb 2019 17:08:53 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: hobgoblin.ariadne.com: worley set sender to worley@alum.mit.edu using -f From: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) To: pradeep xplorer Cc: art@ietf.org In-Reply-To: (pradeepan88@hotmail.com) Sender: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 17:08:53 -0500 Message-ID: <87zhqslpfu.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] re escrow extension X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 22:08:59 -0000 pradeep xplorer writes: > I am a website publisher who recieved only spam can that be used to > prove without doubt cybercrime? As in almost all questions regarding computer communications establishing proof, the answer is "probably not". In practice, it is important to know what laws are applicable -- that is what defined what is cybercrime -- which depends on which jurisdiction(s) your web sites are located in. You need to talk to a lawyer, not a bunch of technologists, to deal with questions like that. Dale From nobody Mon Feb 18 15:25:57 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D40B71310AE for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2019 15:25:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.874 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.874 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2=0.874, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=hotmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iPzCFzaeXF4P for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2019 15:25:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from APC01-PU1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092254089.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.254.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 95C351271FF for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2019 15:25:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hotmail.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=nwWLojYGdR+j8QCETAxJnQoV4HwVkeDPIdNNGmjE3hY=; b=hZ8mYQTTBC29fNj6NhOzCDzOaTn1YAyFjI+kQ4jzrUWLPBySEh4/yMUn0raSTExO7o+jkQr8bl0NerRkcJhFaa17Joy2QI57o5dVLBnmj4CeJ+PLrwKQ4bvLRyXr8mjrHxQMIfi6Kq56LoLv9iOHpMpovj17yppfzAgMLo9F6ROM4+6ClcFlkYA81qVi001CvyL22kTEbmO341ymEQOOgBweNDXmNH6AiRbwKoChf3YypulG5WOX3lZEO2a11CcieBXQqnyeqsuUmczqC6ZzRfM2zUOoX/t6/4vClGJXBu3Iqc3BLvbClWA2fGSbmq8005n6HekbObUAtaSUBzcEXg== Received: from SG2APC01FT025.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.250.54) by SG2APC01HT235.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.251.143) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1580.10; Mon, 18 Feb 2019 23:25:49 +0000 Received: from HK2PR03MB4596.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.152.250.51) by SG2APC01FT025.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.250.187) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1580.10 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 18 Feb 2019 23:25:49 +0000 Received: from HK2PR03MB4596.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::ceb:74e0:6b59:da94]) by HK2PR03MB4596.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::ceb:74e0:6b59:da94%4]) with mapi id 15.20.1643.008; Mon, 18 Feb 2019 23:25:49 +0000 From: pradeep xplorer To: "Dale R. Worley" CC: "art@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [art] re escrow extension Thread-Index: AQHUx9aLsK/7YLtg8k+ThU7MpotOQ6XmMr+A Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 23:25:49 +0000 Message-ID: References: (pradeepan88@hotmail.com) <87zhqslpfu.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> In-Reply-To: <87zhqslpfu.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-clientproxiedby: BM1PR0101CA0013.INDPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:1096:b00:18::23) To HK2PR03MB4596.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:202:27::21) x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:3F86FB634A3B4BFE2CACA825A2FD49E7CA6B629EE2B8162A0D77BA6E2D0F7C81; UpperCasedChecksum:994F7476375612FAA1D2B800299190E0A5AFEFE57D64AF0049AD464C527AF10C; SizeAsReceived:8443; Count:64 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-mailer: MailDroid/4.91 (Android 4.2.2) x-tmn: [qoPAMJ8W3Wz1hbzAOGKMzy579YDD8vQD] x-microsoft-original-message-id: <7067653a-7bf8-4dcf-b0dc-58563c97dc53.maildroid@localhost> x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-incomingheadercount: 64 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; 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Tue, 19 Feb 2019 00:52:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=sskalkunte.info Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ilNqCTTmxbv3 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 00:52:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.protonmail.ch (mail1.protonmail.ch [185.70.40.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8B64130E82 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 00:52:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 08:52:40 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sskalkunte.info; s=protonmail; t=1550566368; bh=z8ii/m1vsYEyjfMSlb5/7hUutnlSNGZx4tE94d6k7Mw=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Reply-To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From; b=E6qdVL5flO91go077iTeloDBPPUgAr1tT4O/fE+19BGn8PNJY5Mb4/Lt4pBgGseU4 lkIeNE62xWWIqoW3TxHg90FE74HWa3MrFAT0huOJ8C/ceIwnvQqbCy24/FLY0/Keo+ g+Owdm7W9AbrGixQ8A4kAZhI7zjLoljU4w1fRMc4= To: pradeep xplorer From: "Suresh S." Cc: "Dale R. Worley" , "art@ietf.org" Reply-To: "Suresh S." Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <87zhqslpfu.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> Feedback-ID: YZ-2io_4NUANLzRoIMW4EqYHASklei9uNUtnjvDDp5DYO12s0wRrP0OWhv_iJPXTPjM8HM_UrkI3i6-u6Q-ZiA==:Ext:ProtonMail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] re escrow extension X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 08:52:53 -0000 Mr. Pradeep, By the volume of bits you download that is spam, we all understand it is im= pairing your cost-effective functioning and hence my suggestion to change y= our email address. When I provided the FTC website reference, it was not meant to be U.S. cent= ric, rather to provide you with a point of reference that is likely to prov= ide precise definition of what constitutes cybercrime concerning spam and t= hinking it may also explain how to recognize the deviant. Thus guiding you = to collect the necessary data and present it to a lawyer/court of law (wher= ever you live). My suggestions have been in the spirit of self-help. Dale and I have tried to provide constructive feedback. Doubting our good i= ntentions by insinuating comments is not constructive. During the many years of fighting for justice, there have been numerous ins= tances of fear mongering to cause well meaning people to not step forward a= nd help. I pray your intent is not to bully, if yes and if you live in Indi= a, meet me at my place of residence at 2715/1, 2nd Main Rd., 8th Cross Rd.,= Vontikoppal, Mysore 570002. From nobody Tue Feb 19 04:04:17 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A02A130EC0; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 04:04:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FORGED_MUA_EUDORA=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EGm3sxxu1baS; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 04:04:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from host.presenceweb.org (host.presenceweb.org [67.222.106.46]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 517FD1286E7; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 04:04:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from 251.47.14.81.rev.sfr.net ([81.14.47.251]:21239 helo=MORFIN-PC.jefsey.com) by host.presenceweb.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1gw47y-0000Pk-N4; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 13:03:59 +0100 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 13:03:53 +0100 To: "Suresh S." , pradeep xplorer From: JFC Morfin Cc: "art@ietf.org" ,"Dale R. Worley" , "iucg@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: <87zhqslpfu.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - host.presenceweb.org X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jefsey.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: host.presenceweb.org: authenticated_id: jefsey+jefsey.com/only user confirmed/virtual account not confirmed X-Authenticated-Sender: host.presenceweb.org: jefsey@jefsey.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Message-Id: <20190219120402.517FD1286E7@ietfa.amsl.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] re escrow extension X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 12:04:09 -0000 At 09:52 19/02/2019, Suresh S. wrote: >Mr. Pradeep, >By the volume of bits you download that is spam, we all understand >it is impairing your cost-effective functioning and hence my >suggestion to change your email address. Dear Implicated Users (IUsers), there is a common misunderstanding among IETF users about the purpose of the IETF. The role of the IETF (RFC 3935) is to make the internet work better. And the job of the internet is to carry datagrams end to end. Then RFC 1958 adds that "everything else" should be addressed at the frange, i.e. outside of the IETF responsibility, yet RFC 6852 states: "We embrace a modern paradigm for standards where the economics of global markets, fueled by technological advancements, drive global deployment of standards regardless of their formal status." I red this as "engineers talk among engineers and users talk with engineers in a way engineers understand and can do something about what users need". So, I asked for a special place to be created to that end: this is the non-WG iucg@ietf.org mailing list. Its purpose is to permit users to discuss their users' needs and to express them in a generic way that engineers can technically/architecturally address. It was not being much used lately as users do not seem to believe: (1) in the architectural capacity of the IETF to do more for us within the limits of their the four catenet layers, (2) in their own capacity to deploy any standard not endorsed by the leading edge providers. What I personnally feel possible on a case per case basis. What I understand is that you want is to be able to act as a "fringe master", i.e. to run secure virtual stand alone "network engine" you control, able to host autonomous services and application functions, generating, receiving and managing its own TCP/IP master-to-master (M2M) relations and acting as a server for client's and SMTP connexions to you? I suggest you and those interested: * first to switch to iucg@ietf.org, and there to try to review the existing projects round the open sphere, that could support this requirement, test some running codes, discuss a possible best practice RFC, and * then to submit back the whole of it to this list for technical comments and reviews. Best, jfc morfin From nobody Tue Feb 19 06:16:31 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78BFF130F0E for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 06:16:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.874 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.874 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2=0.874, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=hotmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f6vey7RNMEK6 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 06:16:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from APC01-HK2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092255035.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.255.35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6B770130F07 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 06:16:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hotmail.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=Htt5VBwmEBWi22jEFk0rO5z9v2gA47mfnCADDX4cQa4=; b=ehF+7CvPV8elxpvenBNmgpd36KrIHQS03ilCO939HomiTOr2WfSj+JZ0vKMrJYU5gjeDBm8FaBTUKD+TNSTOOqJ8jIiO6co5Mt4MHvi8u0LmYHs6xk6ktGIb4KyS4rmD6EPUw4trYC+GbrP3oVdwr0PlP+w3R9WdClswr9xcWx32JsOVDmAmL9wfE2CqfoYkWfRRO4LdidOeQjRItmiXXbPOW0YKMk9LeIVYRTBrwmoq7XvRBo0XbN0DL+cGJ07gxgPBHIo9FhwvaTd3Z/wvOiDTcgxVGhIXPQLAW3+buNLxaRxZvEN6R40DFRwwEXIQ6LY3Dthgnnw6xqR9aXt7Tw== Received: from SG2APC01FT053.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.250.57) by SG2APC01HT208.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.251.177) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1580.10; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 14:16:23 +0000 Received: from HK2PR03MB4596.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.152.250.53) by SG2APC01FT053.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.250.240) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1580.10 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 14:16:23 +0000 Received: from HK2PR03MB4596.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::ceb:74e0:6b59:da94]) by HK2PR03MB4596.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::ceb:74e0:6b59:da94%4]) with mapi id 15.20.1643.014; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 14:16:23 +0000 From: pradeep xplorer To: Suresh S. 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(10.152.248.181) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.1580.10 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 20 Feb 2019 11:22:35 +0000 Received: from HK2PR03MB4596.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::ceb:74e0:6b59:da94]) by HK2PR03MB4596.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::ceb:74e0:6b59:da94%4]) with mapi id 15.20.1643.014; Wed, 20 Feb 2019 11:22:35 +0000 From: pradeep xplorer To: Suresh S. , "art@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [art] I need this to be posted so i get instruments issued in my name in my hand Thread-Index: AQHUyQElDoY3/248HEqryp/cFm4bGqXoigKAgAAA+4A= Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 11:22:35 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-clientproxiedby: BM1PR01CA0074.INDPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:1096:b00:1::14) To HK2PR03MB4596.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:202:27::21) x-incomingtopheadermarker: 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ZAaEwJn57AVaFaWePNFpVbXIQiWvCEJSSfnLGlRsvt4QqgIdiSLGqwYcQ2gEfIIt Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_HK2PR03MB4596BCA4D046B66CC1A6173FB77D0HK2PR03MB4596apcp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: 54485d23-c432-40fe-8436-6091d627118c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: d719a3eb-3dac-47ac-5746-08d69725b640 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: 54485d23-c432-40fe-8436-6091d627118c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 20 Feb 2019 11:22:33.8091 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HK2APC01HT059 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] I need this to be posted so i get instruments issued in my name in my hand X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , 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(1024-bit key) header.d=sskalkunte.info Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sIYJFeUfIPN9 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2019 04:11:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.protonmail.ch (mail1.protonmail.ch [185.70.40.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 77806128766 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2019 04:11:51 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 12:11:41 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sskalkunte.info; s=protonmail; t=1550664707; bh=Dwb9W0Ui/iHqLvP4CsZOYqnwPAcklxyIZ+QxlwWxK64=; h=Date:To:From:Reply-To:Subject:Feedback-ID:From; b=V8tHxHP4/HCbdg0A/zim5fAJbqVkPEyIHQeK4jy/mVKoUkavM1/3VcbWseuIgL7K2 IpAA/dP98WhfhE01pfHYalYIBaow3De5qcX/jcm9k/e8YwG0UHdsbnPGKGyRL6HxGP knCIJPxICG4Zg5DqmNeHPJdeMw5Y7ecn1p6rFHEo= To: "art@ietf.org" From: "Suresh S." Reply-To: "Suresh S." Message-ID: Feedback-ID: YZ-2io_4NUANLzRoIMW4EqYHASklei9uNUtnjvDDp5DYO12s0wRrP0OWhv_iJPXTPjM8HM_UrkI3i6-u6Q-ZiA==:Ext:ProtonMail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: [art] Fw: Re: re escrow extension [adding context to empathy] X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 12:11:54 -0000 I did not burden the list with the following post thinking Pradeep did not = have posting privileges. Since he still does, https://mailarchive.ietf.org/= arch/msg/art/vLVMDC9jTyRrQtTXTct7wvSBSs4, the following email provides the = context for my empathy attending his circumstances. Suresh =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 Original Me= ssage =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 On Wednesday, February 20, 2019 10:22 AM, Suresh S. wrote: > When you call someone a criminal without definitive proof, those who unde= rstand/respect your anguish/concerns/predicament become averse to continue = a dialog since it becomes difficult to convince a person who appears to be = rushing to judgment/vicarious distrust. You can refer to an act as crime bu= t calling a person/organization/country a criminal requires significant pro= of. Keep in mind that there are people who create situations conducive for = such misunderstanding so that they can enjoy the bounty from a divide and r= ule strategy - a rational mind has to fight that knavery. > > Beyond a threshold of personal hardship (unpredictable circumstances, mob= bing etc.), the mind is vulnerable to cast anyone who disagrees with us to = be against us/colluding to harm us etc.. Under such circumstances one has t= o fight that thought-process (I have been through that phase in 2004) and, > (a) remind oneself I do not know everything there is to know about this p= erson/organization and > (b) help others relate to one's problem by providing specific examples of= published events that very closely identify with one's hardship. > > From reading your draft to prevent email spam, I recognize your interest = is to prevent unsuspecting people from getting cheated in addition to reduc= ing the burden of spam at present. > > The overall goal of a WhoisEmail does provide the intended verification, = however, consider its scalability (no upper bounds on how many email addres= ses can exist), consequent cost of implementation, deployment and support. > > I protect my email account by configuring DKIM, DMARC and SPF. > > DKIM (DomainKeys Identified Mail): > -=C2=A0http://www.dkim.org/specs/draft-ietf-dkim-deployment-11.html descr= ibes DKIM's role in controlling spam. > > DMARC (Domain-based Message Authentication, Reporting and Conformance): > > - https://dmarc.org > > SPF (Sender Policy Framework): > > - http://www.openspf.org > > Only you know the circumstances that led you being cheated via email. As = JFC Morfin suggests, identify gaps in the existing system of controlling sp= am i.e, using DKIM, DMARC and SPF, then provide specific instances where a = user becomes vulnerable to spam and fraud due to, > (a) misconfiguration of DKIM, DMARC, SPF > (b) absence of configuration parameters in DKIM, DMARC, SPF > > In one of your earlier posts, I read that you have relatives in Palakkad.= I have great deal of respect for people from Kerala. From my numerous trip= s to Kerala, I have noticed the highest level of giving opportunity to peop= le of all walks of life, equality is vibrant. Moreover, my oldest brother w= as born in Palakkad (my grand father lived there at one time). > > From a health perspective, high intake of Vitamin B12 promotes a strong b= ody and mind. I speak from personal experience and observing a dear relativ= e in her 87th year undergo significant mental distress due to low Vitamin B= 12. As you may already know, fish (not fish oil) has abundance of Vitamin B= 12, else, with a doctors prescription, take methylcobalamin injection - it = does wonders. > > Per JFC Morfin's suggestion, please do a detailed study of existing spam = protection mechanisms to determine if your past and present circumstances a= re prevented. If not, provide specific configuration parameters present/abs= ent and what values they ought to have that renders a user vulnerable to sp= am. > > With Regards, > Suresh > > =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 Origi= nal Message =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80= =90 > On Wednesday, February 20, 2019 4:21 AM, pradeep xplorer pradeepan88@= hotmail.com wrote: > > > > You cannot send me email you are a very clever financial criminal > > Sent from MailDroid > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Adam Roach adam@nostrum.com > > To: pradeep xplorer pradeepan88@hotmail.com > > Cc: "art-ads@ietf.org" art-ads@ietf.org > > Sent: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 2:19 AM > > Subject: Re: [art] re escrow extension > > Pradeep -- > > We have received multiple messages from members of the ART community > > expressing concern that your messages to the ART mailing list continue > > to be disruptive and, in many cases, inappropriately hostile. To preven= t > > further disruption, we are removing your posting rights to the ART > > mailing list for 30 days. > > /Adam Roach, on behalf of the ART Area Directors From nobody Wed Feb 20 09:18:58 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0583130DC9 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2019 09:18:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.98 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.98 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Tc_EHCREbqOy for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2019 09:18:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B1D4A130E13 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2019 09:18:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from MacBook-Pro.roach.at (99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id x1KHInep076822 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2019 11:18:50 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1550683131; bh=UGcMRJr7pkAyiblnUpFDUcqpil1g2xvXO7snikj7IM0=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=TnERVCMf3ePVf8fs+by7ch4iaQYPY5CLqou9/yUB62bXO24xYXL1eFWhh6TVmokqo wjsFMHrfgtG1VcAtcaRMcWWeyXLmc7YkQFfKd3KQ+mOm70MzVz3U31t4iJoTATzJaQ ZZ6gs8lreECX6etendMKQJiglL49FFObdvp2L4ow= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228] claimed to be MacBook-Pro.roach.at To: "art@ietf.org" References: From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <63482b32-7642-b477-4dea-6a97a82f3a91@nostrum.com> Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 11:18:44 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Fw: Re: re escrow extension [adding context to empathy] X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 17:18:57 -0000 Apologies for the confusion -- his postings should be blocked, but something is clearly not working. I'm trying to troubleshoot it now. /a On 2/20/19 6:11 AM, Suresh S. wrote: > I did not burden the list with the following post thinking Pradeep did not have posting privileges. Since he still does, https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/art/vLVMDC9jTyRrQtTXTct7wvSBSs4, the following email provides the context for my empathy attending his circumstances. > > Suresh > ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ > On Wednesday, February 20, 2019 10:22 AM, Suresh S. wrote: > >> When you call someone a criminal without definitive proof, those who understand/respect your anguish/concerns/predicament become averse to continue a dialog since it becomes difficult to convince a person who appears to be rushing to judgment/vicarious distrust. You can refer to an act as crime but calling a person/organization/country a criminal requires significant proof. Keep in mind that there are people who create situations conducive for such misunderstanding so that they can enjoy the bounty from a divide and rule strategy - a rational mind has to fight that knavery. >> >> Beyond a threshold of personal hardship (unpredictable circumstances, mobbing etc.), the mind is vulnerable to cast anyone who disagrees with us to be against us/colluding to harm us etc.. Under such circumstances one has to fight that thought-process (I have been through that phase in 2004) and, >> (a) remind oneself I do not know everything there is to know about this person/organization and >> (b) help others relate to one's problem by providing specific examples of published events that very closely identify with one's hardship. >> >> From reading your draft to prevent email spam, I recognize your interest is to prevent unsuspecting people from getting cheated in addition to reducing the burden of spam at present. >> >> The overall goal of a WhoisEmail does provide the intended verification, however, consider its scalability (no upper bounds on how many email addresses can exist), consequent cost of implementation, deployment and support. >> >> I protect my email account by configuring DKIM, DMARC and SPF. >> >> DKIM (DomainKeys Identified Mail): >> - http://www.dkim.org/specs/draft-ietf-dkim-deployment-11.html describes DKIM's role in controlling spam. >> >> DMARC (Domain-based Message Authentication, Reporting and Conformance): >> >> - https://dmarc.org >> >> SPF (Sender Policy Framework): >> >> - http://www.openspf.org >> >> Only you know the circumstances that led you being cheated via email. As JFC Morfin suggests, identify gaps in the existing system of controlling spam i.e, using DKIM, DMARC and SPF, then provide specific instances where a user becomes vulnerable to spam and fraud due to, >> (a) misconfiguration of DKIM, DMARC, SPF >> (b) absence of configuration parameters in DKIM, DMARC, SPF >> >> In one of your earlier posts, I read that you have relatives in Palakkad. I have great deal of respect for people from Kerala. From my numerous trips to Kerala, I have noticed the highest level of giving opportunity to people of all walks of life, equality is vibrant. Moreover, my oldest brother was born in Palakkad (my grand father lived there at one time). >> >> From a health perspective, high intake of Vitamin B12 promotes a strong body and mind. I speak from personal experience and observing a dear relative in her 87th year undergo significant mental distress due to low Vitamin B12. As you may already know, fish (not fish oil) has abundance of Vitamin B12, else, with a doctors prescription, take methylcobalamin injection - it does wonders. >> >> Per JFC Morfin's suggestion, please do a detailed study of existing spam protection mechanisms to determine if your past and present circumstances are prevented. If not, provide specific configuration parameters present/absent and what values they ought to have that renders a user vulnerable to spam. >> >> With Regards, >> Suresh >> >> ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ >> On Wednesday, February 20, 2019 4:21 AM, pradeep xplorer pradeepan88@hotmail.com wrote: >> >> >>> You cannot send me email you are a very clever financial criminal >>> Sent from MailDroid >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Adam Roach adam@nostrum.com >>> To: pradeep xplorer pradeepan88@hotmail.com >>> Cc: "art-ads@ietf.org" art-ads@ietf.org >>> Sent: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 2:19 AM >>> Subject: Re: [art] re escrow extension >>> Pradeep -- >>> We have received multiple messages from members of the ART community >>> expressing concern that your messages to the ART mailing list continue >>> to be disruptive and, in many cases, inappropriately hostile. To prevent >>> further disruption, we are removing your posting rights to the ART >>> mailing list for 30 days. >>> /Adam Roach, on behalf of the ART Area Directors > > _______________________________________________ > art mailing list > art@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art From nobody Mon Feb 25 12:38:33 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1543713101B; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 12:38:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zV758vI1d__u; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 12:38:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from pacdcmhout01.cable.comcast.com (PACDCMHOUT01.cable.comcast.com [68.87.31.167]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C087130F82; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 12:38:25 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 44571fa7-a0dff70000021550-e6-5c745240fa21 Received: from PACDCEX21.cable.comcast.com (dlpemail-wc-5p.cable.comcast.com [24.40.13.176]) (using TLS with cipher AES256-SHA256 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by pacdcmhout01.cable.comcast.com (SMTP Gateway) with SMTP id 3F.DD.05456.042547C5; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 15:38:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from PACDCEX19.cable.comcast.com (24.40.1.142) by PACDCEX21.cable.comcast.com (24.40.1.144) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 15:38:23 -0500 Received: from PACDCEX19.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::3aea:a7ff:fe36:8304]) by PACDCEX19.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::3aea:a7ff:fe36:8304%19]) with mapi id 15.00.1395.000; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 15:38:23 -0500 From: "Brotman, Alexander" To: "art@ietf.org" , "dbound@ietf.org" CC: Stephen Farrell , "dnsop@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft Thread-Index: AdTNSNgC8Q46/YWfTPCiSrkXJ1OYgQ== Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 20:38:22 +0000 Message-ID: <5de9ba1c3ae34edb9c7f39e0e9c3b143@PACDCEX19.cable.comcast.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [68.87.29.9] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Forward X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFvrPIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUiocG7QdchqCTGoOWOuMWKux4Wuy5fY7e4 ++Yyi8X0vdfYHVg81nZfZfNYsuQnUwBTVAOjTUlGUWpiiUtqWmpecaodlwIGsElKTcsvSnVN LMqpDErNSU3ErgykMiU1J7MstUgfqzH6WM1J6GLKOPtnAntBP0dF0/oGxgbGXWxdjJwcEgIm EjMWdLN0MXJxCAnsYJK4eOgDO4Szi1HizIcmNgjnJJCz7CATSAubgJXE2//tzF2MHBwiAm4S +xZIg4SZBUIkNn5dwQISFhbQkVjyLxEkLCJgKPF71lEWCFtPYu7ti4wgNouAqsTEK1/AynkF vCQu7osECTMKiEl8P7WGCWKiuMStJ/OZIO4UkFiy5zwzhC0q8fLxP1YI20Bi69J9LBC2nMSy n3eYIXp1JBbs/sQGYWtLLFv4GizOKyAocXLmE6h6cYnDR3awTmAUm4Vk3Swk7bOQtM9C0r6A kWUVI4+ZhZ6FuZ6xoZ6hmfkmRmCycAmXX76DcfusjEOMAhyMSjy8K51KYoRYE8uKK3MPMUpw MCuJ8Ma9L44R4k1JrKxKLcqPLyrNSS0+xCjNwaIkzvvSE6haID2xJDU7NbUgtQgmy8TBKdXA GDft13nT41lT5j+pMX1fXfd3+e9TFfO/nlq/ePkSR8Gs1/erva3cixVSGyanSivLOEocEOav yrq5bcJtD6FXl3qvy7SyMm+vcJ8x9XCZzUn/KLmtPAkL6lKdHx0+e2qNttWdN8wn7Vtv/9rJ +kP70wyG1TIid5Zuiyitce/SkYk+fr1+mtMyCSWW4oxEQy3mouJEAJ8L5uwSAwAA Archived-At: Subject: [art] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 20:38:27 -0000 Hello, Stephen and I have spent a bit of time working on a draft to be able to sho= w a relationship between two domains. We're aware this subject has been co= vered a few times previously, especially in the DBOUND drafts, but we're ho= peful that a more simple approach might be more acceptable. The secondary= domain will create a DNS record that shows a link to a primary domain, and= the text should be able to be validated using the public key in a DNS reco= rd the primary domain shares. This is something akin to DKIM, a mechanism = that the email world uses to ensure the contents of a message have not been= tampered with. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brotman-rdbd/ We'll request that replies relating to this be sent to the dbound@ietf.org = due to the nature of the topic, but it was suggested that we might want to = notify a few other lists for their awareness. Thank you for your participa= tion and comments. -- Alex Brotman Sr. Engineer, Anti-Abuse & Messaging Policy Comcast From nobody Mon Feb 25 22:31:41 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4115130E77 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 22:31:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.876 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.876 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.723, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OzCuvYQFEQeG for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 22:31:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C82A129619 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 22:31:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.58.147.42] ([209.58.147.42]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-mailcom-bs11.server.lan [172.19.170.179]) (via HTTP); Tue, 26 Feb 2019 07:31:33 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: "Suresh Kalkunte" To: Bob.McCooey@nasdaq.com Cc: art@ietf.org Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 07:31:33 +0100 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal References: X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:oCPuJ5u3dTs6QZDfBuTYFM3s2p1eHOTg0NA5YXWKd4Xr9uBUDwVGB3dkSV+39w7e9llkg Ojft8WBW/5vLrp2lA6Wv29NySkUtC+zvleKn8rG357nnQHhLg9FoZoK34H0kRHq4J+swBGWyYSIq 51iyh/xXmbZaPR9eXGzI1cf0e5RKa60LpRGw8kxieKs9QaZp/BGgwGnNeYg6KW7qEd1BwXvDOX3k /xedwrEdchPgBghUf9IDi3sfBdUeBquJe6ZWzzDqe7L3dYF305riOXySUw3P7afLmds5KW1ll0Hc f0= X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:64Xq136kNw4=:xjnnKT9EY/Qd1RBqCPTYEl W1+4drkUlW1NHxDopCtbmeUDFU5Iu/zhwtzqb08i0BxZAr5nWyyR0jdL+0rCtES9+nBmZOPwb 0OPUt1Nb4cFCbtWxJFTfQiVqxd5qdAQkwPrpzyl7YnEIUYvVxJAa7S8+PwGLYTIkOkBzQP7Cy Qx5Ewk6rHE73av3cg6ZJfbL5zhsD9E5Gr8gN/uAPPqmzDL7dkzoQZDwwNt3pi3baF1sOKd/HP VPFosgy/c9GyXAy8kgxncI0ReynaGbhV41OynMFZMc1VpTpoCm+3wQ78CXOlnGnR2cFiLT4k/ A7aKYDGamm4ZFlgTrVMgJKCpXWAay/6+A2GXm0aCg83NYCxrarUIAYya6Uf39m6PlPqSHVApQ 9jbqDQDbRU5fdNTWq5bT8uU//HQAHycMKToDbIk3rph3KFgxgz/A7klV0i9GufExgcqhz7Ut0 co81X/SWdDMRFFfhymZb6eT/HgtipxyZLQNYyPntwdObycrBCkCj5iNXBv7vpeltwB2cyhbhj dzuU+l/Qv5m/S0xgU/osnGlCi0rvbIz/Xaz++Io1Rr1ICJ1kTjSUSEf7jaU44eutDSRat2pAc Jz4yERdvVfyI0= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Regulation/Compliance question [historical perspective] X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 06:31:41 -0000
Hello Bob,
 
The following is an update on how contemporary technology misuse (described in enclosed email) invigorates archetypal feudal practices seen prior to the 13th century albeit in a _dishonorable_ mode.

- History of rule of law:
+ Prior to the 13th century, the practice of feudal law [1] - taking control of property and jurisdiction over people though arbitrary was pursued for _honor_. Emperor Frederick II in 1231 paved the way of constitutional governance.
 
- Basis of rule of law:
+ Inviolability of a person and property constitutes the formal basis [2] on which rule of law stands.
 
Considering the above, malicious use of commonly found components emitting potent energy permits the perpetrator to dominate over people by cued/contextual fear conditioning (biophysical harm from potent energy at a minimum induces muscular pain/pricking sensation, cognitive deficits and worse) and consequently over _physical property_. With no forensic tests to detect such technology misuse, the perpetrator and those under his/her aegis are guaranteed leadership/ownership.
 
I copy the Internet Engineering Task Force in support of a request to include new capability in protocol standards governing the transmission of electronic mail so that an independent platform on the Internet is empowered to support advocacy efforts for common good on behalf of individuals like myself with no organizational leverage.
 
Best Regards,
Suresh
 
 
[1] Hittinger F. "The Rule of Law and the Rule of Reason", www.lawliberty.org/liberty-forum/the-rule-of-law-and-the-rule-of-reason/.
 
[2] Grosby S. "Why Freedom Is a Legal Concept", www.lawliberty.org/liberty-forum/why-freedom-is-a-legal-concept/.
 
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2019 at 1:33 PM
From: "Suresh Kalkunte" <suresh_surya@gmx.com>
To: Bob.McCooey@nasdaq.com
Subject: Regulation/Compliance question
Hello Bob,
 
The biophysical harm from potent energy when used for malice is not covered in existing statutes concerning physical trespass, assault, RICO, antitrust. Consequently, a person/business can take advantage of such a loop hole in rule of law. The following suggestion is a step to maximize integrity of businesses transacting on the NASDAQ.
 
I would like to suggest that a company listed on the NASDAQ be asked to provide a written disclosure indicating that it does not  orchestrate technology* as a method to coerce/intimidate neither directly (using one's own employees) nor indirectly (third party) in its quest to:
- Stifle dissent in one's own employees (including the board of directors) and/or
- Stifle/acquire business competitors and/or
- Gain potential clients.
 
Please note that my contacting you is preceded by a discovery spanning 11+ years to be specific (contacting subject matter experts in technology, science and law in addition to my own health experiences when being in proximity of harm from potent energy) in what manner potent energy is opportune to commit crime, how and where it diverts opportunity/resources to those who are under the aegis of such negative innovation in technology.
 
The depth and breadth of my discovery to support this concern for good business practice can be viewed at https://competitionunlimited.wordpress.com.
 
Best Regards,
Suresh
 
[*] Commonly found components emitting potent energy (home heating appliance - Magnetron, outdoor wireless transmitters - outdoor high gain Line of Sight transmitters, medical diagnostics - X-ray tube) improvised to function as a weapon (only barrier is expertise in electronic circuit design and fabrication) renders laws pertinent to physical trespass, assault, RICO and antitrust compromised since a victim can be located behind building barriers using doppler/ultrawideband based human vital sign detection. When such radar meant for health care is improvised for malice, the radar's radiated RF power stipulated by the FDA would exceed to an extant until a victim is located to compensate for attenuation/fading from intervening distance/building barriers.
 
From nobody Wed Feb 27 06:24:58 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49ADD130DE7; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 06:24:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nohats.ca Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ptjTfm2Xre0h; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 06:24:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.nohats.ca (mx.nohats.ca [193.110.157.68]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D01041200B3; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 06:24:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mx.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 448dHQ47dFz39p; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 15:24:50 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nohats.ca; s=default; t=1551277490; bh=+3wPxJ4v8GjHMfN4jdJ3XBpIU0Sc7JsSPgeKXrDsWB4=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=j0XWH8nJx5v9eGCW4VGBA1kQvQuWyJP2aLbt+ocIMJlSJZ/ITvz0m8S+uKsDnNSz3 GlWSgFoVREBO/FTQm68iMM4rTsWxd061ehDPhR2R1s167FGHXgZQoSiCp81LCLqGev zUWbfYAnE5gHztJMYyveTtgDljOQ4VTwsoGfai3k= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mx.nohats.ca Received: from mx.nohats.ca ([IPv6:::1]) by localhost (mx.nohats.ca [IPv6:::1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J2jDfGCKtnkd; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 15:24:48 +0100 (CET) Received: from bofh.nohats.ca (bofh.nohats.ca [76.10.157.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 15:24:47 +0100 (CET) Received: by bofh.nohats.ca (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D874AA7E0C; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 09:24:46 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 bofh.nohats.ca D874AA7E0C Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bofh.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEEA240D358A; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 09:24:46 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 09:24:46 -0500 (EST) From: Paul Wouters To: "Brotman, Alexander" cc: "art@ietf.org" , "dbound@ietf.org" , "dnsop@ietf.org" , Stephen Farrell In-Reply-To: <5de9ba1c3ae34edb9c7f39e0e9c3b143@PACDCEX19.cable.comcast.com> Message-ID: References: <5de9ba1c3ae34edb9c7f39e0e9c3b143@PACDCEX19.cable.comcast.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.21 (LRH 202 2017-01-01) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [DNSOP] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 14:24:56 -0000 On Mon, 25 Feb 2019, Brotman, Alexander wrote: > Stephen and I have spent a bit of time working on a draft to be able to show a relationship between two domains. We're aware this subject has been covered a few times previously, especially in the DBOUND drafts, but we're hopeful that a more simple approach might be more acceptable. The secondary domain will create a DNS record that shows a link to a primary domain, and the text should be able to be validated using the public key in a DNS record the primary domain shares. This is something akin to DKIM, a mechanism that the email world uses to ensure the contents of a message have not been tampered with. > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brotman-rdbd/ I've read the draft, and I have my usual complaints. If we put stuff into the DNS for security decisions, saying "its better if you use this data when it is DNSSEC signed" is just too weak. We are splashing TOFU everywhere and putting CT bandaids on it. It's long overdue that we stop with that. Just require DNSSEC. And if you require DNSSEC validation, then the solution becomes much simpler and could be encoded in a single bit, see: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pwouters-powerbind Paul From nobody Wed Feb 27 07:32:35 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43280130FDB; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 07:32:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EiL5m6Bu8eE1; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 07:32:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from pacdcmhout01.cable.comcast.com (PACDCMHOUT01.cable.comcast.com [68.87.31.167]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5725A1200B3; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 07:32:15 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 44571fa7-9f3ff70000021550-f4-5c76ad7e8e4f Received: from PACDCEX23.cable.comcast.com (dlpemail-wc-2p.cable.comcast.com [24.40.12.145]) (using TLS with cipher AES256-SHA256 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by pacdcmhout01.cable.comcast.com (SMTP Gateway) with SMTP id 2F.EB.05456.E7DA67C5; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 10:32:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from PACDCEX19.cable.comcast.com (24.40.1.142) by PACDCEX23.cable.comcast.com (24.40.1.146) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 10:32:12 -0500 Received: from PACDCEX19.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::3aea:a7ff:fe36:8304]) by PACDCEX19.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::3aea:a7ff:fe36:8304%19]) with mapi id 15.00.1395.000; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 10:32:12 -0500 From: "Brotman, Alexander" To: Paul Wouters CC: "art@ietf.org" , "dnsop@ietf.org" , "Stephen Farrell" , "dbound@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [dbound] [DNSOP] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft Thread-Index: AdTNSNgC8Q46/YWfTPCiSrkXJ1OYgQBiUEUAAAhZBnA= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 15:32:12 +0000 Message-ID: References: <5de9ba1c3ae34edb9c7f39e0e9c3b143@PACDCEX19.cable.comcast.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [96.114.156.7] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Forward X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrCKsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUiocEzUbdubVmMwfqLwhYr7npY7Lp8jd3i 7pvLLBbvb11ispi+9xq7A6vH2u6rbB5Llvxk8vg+jymAOaqB0aYkoyg1scQlNS01rzjVjksB A9gkpablF6W6JhblVAal5qQmYlcGUpmSmpNZllqkj9UYfazmJHQxZcy4t4Ot4Llgxc/fF9ga GI/zdTFyckgImEgsPXiJpYuRi0NIYAeTRPuSnewQzi5Gib2bG1hBqoQETgI513lAbDYBK4m3 /9uZQWwRAUWJSWcegXUzC8xilGi9tQSsQVjAUWLLlo1QRU4SDRunsULYVhJTzx5iA7FZBFQl /hw9wAJi8wp4Sfyat4sJYnMDo8Sb9U/AGjgFHCTm7tsGNohRQEzi+6k1TCA2s4C4xK0n85kg fhCQWLLnPDOELSrx8vE/VgjbQGLr0n0sELaCRM+E6cwQvToSC3Z/YoOwtSWWLXzNDHGEoMTJ mU+g6sUlDh/ZwTqBUWIWknWzkLTPQtI+C0n7AkaWVYw8ZhZ6FuZ6xoZ6hmbmmxiBacclXH75 DsbtszIOMQpwMCrx8KovKosRYk0sK67MPcQowcGsJMIrsBooxJuSWFmVWpQfX1Sak1p8iFGa g0VJnPfirdIYIYH0xJLU7NTUgtQimCwTB6dUA6P847rrSRu+HHWXvX8lbifzwn0Gzx9NnV7k atbCdPPLk0V7plhcm75l7ZRLcgxpWjw3dV6nlW0Rkru4L5RHrfB/r/NeqQXbfY4zCCY3nmO/ c+GewM+Pm66sz96g8uqZ4NNfTv/UFpVL5Gj94+uc8bjN6MvHKf1i698uPHyp4qOLrAOLwLor k2MklViKMxINtZiLihMB3l4CcDcDAAA= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [dbound] [DNSOP] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 15:32:18 -0000 I'm supportive of doing this in other ways, but also understand that DNSSEC= is not widely deployed. I suppose that's ultimately a crutch, though it i= s the current situation. With that being said, we thought this would be on= e reasonable approach to being able to show that relationship. We could po= tentially have a non-DNSSEC and DNSSEC method in the same draft, if that's = something that might be agreeable? -- Alex Brotman Sr. Engineer, Anti-Abuse & Messaging Policy Comcast -----Original Message----- From: dbound On Behalf Of Paul Wouters Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2019 9:25 AM To: Brotman, Alexander Cc: art@ietf.org; dnsop@ietf.org; Stephen Farrell ; dbound@ietf.org Subject: Re: [dbound] [DNSOP] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft On Mon, 25 Feb 2019, Brotman, Alexander wrote: > Stephen and I have spent a bit of time working on a draft to be able to s= how a relationship between two domains. We're aware this subject has been = covered a few times previously, especially in the DBOUND drafts, but we're = hopeful that a more simple approach might be more acceptable. The seconda= ry domain will create a DNS record that shows a link to a primary domain, a= nd the text should be able to be validated using the public key in a DNS re= cord the primary domain shares. This is something akin to DKIM, a mechanis= m that the email world uses to ensure the contents of a message have not be= en tampered with. > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brotman-rdbd/ I've read the draft, and I have my usual complaints. If we put stuff into the DNS for security decisions, saying "its better if = you use this data when it is DNSSEC signed" is just too weak. We are splash= ing TOFU everywhere and putting CT bandaids on it. It's long overdue that w= e stop with that. Just require DNSSEC. And if you require DNSSEC validation, then the solution becomes much simple= r and could be encoded in a single bit, see: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pwouters-powerbind Paul _______________________________________________ dbound mailing list dbound@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dbound From nobody Wed Feb 27 07:48:44 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDD0C130E71; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 07:48:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nohats.ca Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hePNRJzgU5dM; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 07:48:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.nohats.ca (mx.nohats.ca [193.110.157.68]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 359931200B3; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 07:48:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mx.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 448g7y6HMczD0B; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 16:48:30 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nohats.ca; s=default; t=1551282510; bh=H49nfX1vedMxsGQC3GO0kJZ7kdUNib+HOKxKQTueBFI=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=T7hIHKLOQVM3U/SG1ZSmH+8M1Pta1wgrQlpyzPGOBaMSaIn/8OBiIEupMWZz9LAHq XjLY9/oqYGKwOb/ly4GFtVQrTfbSbb87eG7fY3rtUih0sUV+udmXZYAkW9rZBi7H/t JttCHdSzxteIgh+ERzMNm5foQnm1wfrEyNTZKC8c= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mx.nohats.ca Received: from mx.nohats.ca ([IPv6:::1]) by localhost (mx.nohats.ca [IPv6:::1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bXuWlKpCrdfx; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 16:48:29 +0100 (CET) Received: from bofh.nohats.ca (bofh.nohats.ca [76.10.157.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 16:48:28 +0100 (CET) Received: by bofh.nohats.ca (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 92803A7E0C; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 10:48:27 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 bofh.nohats.ca 92803A7E0C Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bofh.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84DDA40D358A; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 10:48:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 10:48:27 -0500 (EST) From: Paul Wouters To: "Brotman, Alexander" cc: "art@ietf.org" , "dbound@ietf.org" , "dnsop@ietf.org" , Stephen Farrell In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <5de9ba1c3ae34edb9c7f39e0e9c3b143@PACDCEX19.cable.comcast.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.21 (LRH 202 2017-01-01) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [DNSOP] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 15:48:35 -0000 On Wed, 27 Feb 2019, Paul Wouters wrote: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brotman-rdbd/ > > I've read the draft, and I have my usual complaints. I scanned this document a bit too fast, with an eye on parent-child relationships and didn't fully realise this is about relating domains at different parts in the DNS hierarchy alltogether. So now I do understand the format and use better. I'm not sure if the DNS is the best place for this information, but it is not the worst place either. So in that sense this proposal seems fine. I do still have a concern that this is using its own signature schemes embedded in the records instead of relying on DNSSEC. But I guess that's just the world we live in now. Paul From nobody Wed Feb 27 07:54:28 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFB20130FE9; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 07:54:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nohats.ca Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D9aA0Palvabh; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 07:54:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.nohats.ca (mx.nohats.ca [193.110.157.68]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 74DEA1200B3; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 07:54:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mx.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 448gGk4rgMzC7V; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 16:54:22 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nohats.ca; s=default; t=1551282862; bh=Zge1X395SZBFG85gcmN82NOL1rHfara6B7j9QBAtux0=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=Lx6Q9QcVP1Ejz07dGNeODcMsHS7otmfB9q457OHkiALCxJN5ilzNNMSKqeTCX1YgH V17WHym3YxaspxLNE/dQgvCZx7eDhZnrpMOIXmw1fimf3fQmkHvSH5/fqW6tG2TLuz fwnvvQt7f5EAQL+xlDlOJrQ20/kyNeTO2jkKSQjw= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mx.nohats.ca Received: from mx.nohats.ca ([IPv6:::1]) by localhost (mx.nohats.ca [IPv6:::1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R17sc9Z6PJLu; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 16:54:21 +0100 (CET) Received: from bofh.nohats.ca (bofh.nohats.ca [76.10.157.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 16:54:21 +0100 (CET) Received: by bofh.nohats.ca (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 79329A7E0C; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 10:54:20 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 bofh.nohats.ca 79329A7E0C Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bofh.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DE0940D358A; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 10:54:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 10:54:20 -0500 (EST) From: Paul Wouters To: "Brotman, Alexander" cc: "art@ietf.org" , "dnsop@ietf.org" , Stephen Farrell , "dbound@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <5de9ba1c3ae34edb9c7f39e0e9c3b143@PACDCEX19.cable.comcast.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.21 (LRH 202 2017-01-01) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [DNSOP] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 15:54:27 -0000 On Wed, 27 Feb 2019, Paul Wouters wrote: >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brotman-rdbd/ One more question (and then I promise to walk away from the keyboard for a while) How is this data being consumed by the enduser ? It sort of begins to look like an EV thing. Also, wouldn't attackers just link their fake domain to another fake domain to get a green looking OKAY? Paul From nobody Wed Feb 27 07:58:03 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 812E1130FF9; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 07:57:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JDWdqsulKSs7; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 07:57:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 19A73130FF0; 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Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="0qQqihBrYzGQUnIfDaWrM2SjsJTZcfmxk" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [dbound] [DNSOP] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 15:57:45 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --0qQqihBrYzGQUnIfDaWrM2SjsJTZcfmxk Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="SXSjtdaJa7ywkn6c6D2wwtj6zIqzeXjRf"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Paul Wouters , "Brotman, Alexander" Cc: "art@ietf.org" , "dnsop@ietf.org" , "dbound@ietf.org" Message-ID: <8cbf0062-35c6-a8bd-e809-c6a5e9ce16c8@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [dbound] [DNSOP] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft References: <5de9ba1c3ae34edb9c7f39e0e9c3b143@PACDCEX19.cable.comcast.com> In-Reply-To: --SXSjtdaJa7ywkn6c6D2wwtj6zIqzeXjRf Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------D9F654D0CBF98F2A0358D0FE" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D9F654D0CBF98F2A0358D0FE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Paul, On 27/02/2019 15:48, Paul Wouters wrote: > On Wed, 27 Feb 2019, Paul Wouters wrote: >=20 >>> =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brotman-rdbd/ >> >> I've read the draft, and I have my usual complaints. Thanks for taking a read! > I scanned this document a bit too fast, with an eye on parent-child > relationships and didn't fully realise this is about relating domains > at different parts in the DNS hierarchy alltogether. And even more thanks for reading it twice! It is short, luckily:-) Great that you think it's uncrazy. >=20 > So now I do understand the format and use better. I'm not sure if the > DNS is the best place for this information, but it is not the worst > place either. So in that sense this proposal seems fine. Yep. Actually in exchanges with John Levine on the dbound list, (he was v. reasonably questioning the value of these new signatures), I myself only copped on that this could be of some use where the primary has DNSSEC but where the secondary doesn't, which is maybe interesting. Those mails are here [1] if someone's interested. > I do still have a concern that this is using its own signature schemes > embedded in the records instead of relying on DNSSEC. But I guess > that's just the world we live in now. Yep. After both domains have DNSSEC, then this could all be simpler. Before they do, there may be value in the sigs though see John's simplification suggestion at [1]. Cheers, S. 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filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAlx2s24ACgkQWrL68XsX K+qclxAA0oQ8iPvi/W8OpdvfFu4WFvvEqQC9ab0PCRW1MTHRRqfAGoeCenvcyE52 n2BtznMmqRh0QcGwI8p7goVF48pw2m14Ok/R1jvQQCbjBhnTabLWbbVhwRHm0n8K Z4eFTnDh6pGbFS8iNXhlvT+SbyDWuixNFl5bbbzASb6jHNXx66trov+dN29VB7fn xAEUzC0w6G0X+3vA/9eOdxtK2zLwE9Yustn1Vrw7QnomxKFxmDhogevygug6+h+2 K5ItGH3rY+k/m+4ORUgYLwFT3uWXG0ii6PCXiJ9NbGEPlg1JLI+T7VonJeeS6/ie ZVs8s8QOMPxEhMPRLYCVYFGKTVZUT2ct5+t5ENJRzMjHYT3vOMqtKBYy8xydIEL3 aY72HXAZjKiTdgyFd9THzWySf3gUDVGXSAVQYXi9l9v5YNZsuRBe5LVKopRnlFm+ TSr2rZHcbAcaswkC2Z/lIuM6lDmYNiGNw06Czj/O8y41ZyRPX5WUnR8qBB73xQVq pl5QKWLRuMORorwm4qv4URK2DVL5O522RQw+x7QS3AlGu1Dj1xW8Yp1uIuX0fR/v yxmp6Pdlqn+VoyHsrtqGgie0jrD3Xkv1H6hzfJ9K82TsoTAdNoKn8pbLyAGllmos YieakXNhQLCe6rf/TPicoCNcy7x8Z9xJMmL48KiOmo/iXoHO54E= =fhJj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --0qQqihBrYzGQUnIfDaWrM2SjsJTZcfmxk-- From nobody Wed Feb 27 08:15:02 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43BE1130E82; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 08:14:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q4KDVxh_7ijv; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 08:14:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A1A021200B3; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 08:14:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CFB6BE51; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 16:14:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XUcyGWh-IXTI; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 16:14:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [134.226.36.93] (unknown [134.226.36.93]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E0F5EBE4C; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 16:14:48 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1551284088; bh=ZAVc061yK0m5bJRf7/Ek5yBZbD+aCzZDmuQmIsQ1/0o=; h=To:Cc:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=DKkLGno1Fugxz1mXlXnvyn774VLRlN8itW6Hnoh2x4Hc4nqm05CSwQEd2jkpVT6CI OF7gk2m5coVvmQ8geY6soU8l0YU8tlj8avMDcL4xTMf4fb35GjTiEXTf2w/dOjj0yX FIf+t/pAeILFA2Q1Miu3xZk1cHQ4l5AfCPDsffKo= To: Paul Wouters , "Brotman, Alexander" Cc: "art@ietf.org" , "dnsop@ietf.org" , "dbound@ietf.org" References: <5de9ba1c3ae34edb9c7f39e0e9c3b143@PACDCEX19.cable.comcast.com> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; url= Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABtDJTdGVwaGVuIEZh 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X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 16:14:53 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --UlTVYRgKO1j1ookOqIfuaTSMMQyi8sFTC Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="U4Hz5X0JUrmFZbMkjxjMj3EWuKTmI7H5X"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Paul Wouters , "Brotman, Alexander" Cc: "art@ietf.org" , "dnsop@ietf.org" , "dbound@ietf.org" Message-ID: Subject: Re: [dbound] [DNSOP] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft References: <5de9ba1c3ae34edb9c7f39e0e9c3b143@PACDCEX19.cable.comcast.com> In-Reply-To: --U4Hz5X0JUrmFZbMkjxjMj3EWuKTmI7H5X Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------04532129FBDAA8FA184B970B" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------04532129FBDAA8FA184B970B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 27/02/2019 15:54, Paul Wouters wrote: > How is this data being consumed by the enduser ?=20 Very good question. Sorry for what's likely a longer answer than you want:-) Alex and I chatted about that and I think ended up figuring: a) there are many potential semantics that could be associated with such a linkage, b) we don't yet know what'd be useful, but c) no, we are defo not trying for an EV-like thing and lastly d) we really want to keep this as simple as possible - given there's a lot of feature-creep potential here, and that'd likely be fatal. My own use-case for this relates more to surveys, where I'd like to get a hint that two names are related so I could take that into account. Alex's is more business like (as you'd expect:-) he'd like to be able to feed this kind of linkage information into mail processing, e.g. perhaps to treat some mails as less-likely spam if he sees a link, compared to if he doesn't (with all the other mail processing foo that'd clearly be required to not do that kind of thing stupidly of course). We guess that there'd be other uses too but finding out if this is seen as useful enough that people would publish RR's is part of why we shot out the draft now. We also considered whether or not to e.g. try to add some kind of flag to indicate semantics but reckoned we don't know enough to do that for now. Cheers, S. > It sort of begins > to look like an EV thing. Also, wouldn't attackers just link their > fake domain to another fake domain to get a green looking OKAY? --------------04532129FBDAA8FA184B970B Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 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(TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) id 1gz22P-000dqM-fa (Exim 4.91) (return-path ); Wed, 27 Feb 2019 16:26:29 +0000 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 16:26:29 +0000 From: Tony Finch To: Paul Wouters cc: "Brotman, Alexander" , "art@ietf.org" , "dnsop@ietf.org" , Stephen Farrell , "dbound@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <5de9ba1c3ae34edb9c7f39e0e9c3b143@PACDCEX19.cable.comcast.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (DEB 67 2015-01-07) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [DNSOP] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 16:26:38 -0000 Paul Wouters wrote: > > I do still have a concern that this is using its own signature schemes > embedded in the records instead of relying on DNSSEC. But I guess > that's just the world we live in now. I wonder if it should instead be a SIG(SOA) where the signer is the primary domain, but I'm not sure what the other bits of this SIG record should say. Also, I wasn't around when DNSSEC worked like that, so there are likely to be all sorts of good reasons why this is not a fun and enticing prospect. Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch http://dotat.at/ no one shall be enslaved by poverty, ignorance, or conformity From nobody Wed Feb 27 08:37:51 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F16B130EE1; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 08:37:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=verisign.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HlnaBQOQMcJf; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 08:37:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail3.verisign.com (mail3.verisign.com [72.13.63.32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2CD74130EED; 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Wed, 27 Feb 2019 11:37:32 -0500 Received: from BRN1WNEX02.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com ([fe80::7c0a:1cc:5def:9dde]) by BRN1WNEX02.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com ([fe80::7c0a:1cc:5def:9dde%4]) with mapi id 15.01.1713.004; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 11:37:32 -0500 From: "Hollenbeck, Scott" To: "stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie" , "paul@nohats.ca" , "Alexander_Brotman@comcast.com" CC: "art@ietf.org" , "dnsop@ietf.org" , "dbound@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [EXTERNAL] Re: [DNSOP] [dbound] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft Thread-Index: AQHUzrefByxL0Iby3E2AX95fpgituaXz1qOA Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 16:37:32 +0000 Message-ID: <804a305f4d1b40daa6e9ca9b3e97f96d@verisign.com> References: <5de9ba1c3ae34edb9c7f39e0e9c3b143@PACDCEX19.cable.comcast.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.170.148.18] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [DNSOP] [dbound] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 16:37:36 -0000 PiAtLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KPiBGcm9tOiBETlNPUCA8ZG5zb3AtYm91bmNl c0BpZXRmLm9yZz4gT24gQmVoYWxmIE9mIFN0ZXBoZW4gRmFycmVsbA0KPiBTZW50OiBXZWRuZXNk YXksIEZlYnJ1YXJ5IDI3LCAyMDE5IDExOjE1IEFNDQo+IFRvOiBQYXVsIFdvdXRlcnMgPHBhdWxA bm9oYXRzLmNhPjsgQnJvdG1hbiwgQWxleGFuZGVyDQo+IDxBbGV4YW5kZXJfQnJvdG1hbkBjb21j YXN0LmNvbT4NCj4gQ2M6IGFydEBpZXRmLm9yZzsgZG5zb3BAaWV0Zi5vcmc7IGRib3VuZEBpZXRm Lm9yZw0KPiBTdWJqZWN0OiBbRVhURVJOQUxdIFJlOiBbRE5TT1BdIFtkYm91bmRdIFJlbGF0ZWQg RG9tYWlucyBCeSBETlMgKFJEQkQpDQo+IERyYWZ0DQo+DQo+DQo+IEhpeWEsDQo+DQo+IE9uIDI3 LzAyLzIwMTkgMTU6NTQsIFBhdWwgV291dGVycyB3cm90ZToNCj4gPiBIb3cgaXMgdGhpcyBkYXRh IGJlaW5nIGNvbnN1bWVkIGJ5IHRoZSBlbmR1c2VyID8NCj4NCj4gVmVyeSBnb29kIHF1ZXN0aW9u LiBTb3JyeSBmb3Igd2hhdCdzIGxpa2VseSBhIGxvbmdlciBhbnN3ZXIgdGhhbiB5b3Ugd2FudDot KQ0KPg0KPiBBbGV4IGFuZCBJIGNoYXR0ZWQgYWJvdXQgdGhhdCBhbmQgSSB0aGluayBlbmRlZCB1 cA0KPiBmaWd1cmluZzogYSkgdGhlcmUgYXJlIG1hbnkgcG90ZW50aWFsIHNlbWFudGljcyB0aGF0 IGNvdWxkIGJlIGFzc29jaWF0ZWQgd2l0aA0KPiBzdWNoIGEgbGlua2FnZSwgYikgd2UgZG9uJ3Qg eWV0IGtub3cgd2hhdCdkIGJlIHVzZWZ1bCwgYnV0IGMpIG5vLCB3ZSBhcmUgZGVmbw0KPiBub3Qg dHJ5aW5nIGZvciBhbiBFVi1saWtlIHRoaW5nIGFuZCBsYXN0bHkgZCkgd2UgcmVhbGx5IHdhbnQg dG8ga2VlcCB0aGlzIGFzDQo+IHNpbXBsZSBhcyBwb3NzaWJsZSAtIGdpdmVuIHRoZXJlJ3MgYSBs b3Qgb2YgZmVhdHVyZS1jcmVlcCBwb3RlbnRpYWwgaGVyZSwgYW5kDQo+IHRoYXQnZCBsaWtlbHkg YmUgZmF0YWwuDQo+DQo+IE15IG93biB1c2UtY2FzZSBmb3IgdGhpcyByZWxhdGVzIG1vcmUgdG8g c3VydmV5cywgd2hlcmUgSSdkIGxpa2UgdG8gZ2V0IGEgaGludA0KPiB0aGF0IHR3byBuYW1lcyBh cmUgcmVsYXRlZCBzbyBJIGNvdWxkIHRha2UgdGhhdCBpbnRvIGFjY291bnQuIEFsZXgncyBpcyBt b3JlDQo+IGJ1c2luZXNzIGxpa2UgKGFzIHlvdSdkIGV4cGVjdDotKSBoZSdkIGxpa2UgdG8gYmUg YWJsZSB0byBmZWVkIHRoaXMga2luZCBvZg0KPiBsaW5rYWdlIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uIGludG8gbWFp bCBwcm9jZXNzaW5nLCBlLmcuIHBlcmhhcHMgdG8gdHJlYXQgc29tZSBtYWlscyBhcw0KPiBsZXNz LWxpa2VseSBzcGFtIGlmIGhlIHNlZXMgYSBsaW5rLCBjb21wYXJlZCB0byBpZiBoZSBkb2Vzbid0 ICh3aXRoIGFsbCB0aGUgb3RoZXINCj4gbWFpbCBwcm9jZXNzaW5nIGZvbyB0aGF0J2QgY2xlYXJs eSBiZSByZXF1aXJlZCB0byBub3QgZG8gdGhhdCBraW5kIG9mIHRoaW5nDQo+IHN0dXBpZGx5IG9m IGNvdXJzZSkuIFdlIGd1ZXNzIHRoYXQgdGhlcmUnZCBiZSBvdGhlciB1c2VzIHRvbyBidXQgZmlu ZGluZyBvdXQgaWYNCj4gdGhpcyBpcyBzZWVuIGFzIHVzZWZ1bCBlbm91Z2ggdGhhdCBwZW9wbGUg d291bGQgcHVibGlzaCBSUidzIGlzIHBhcnQgb2Ygd2h5DQo+IHdlIHNob3Qgb3V0IHRoZSBkcmFm dCBub3cuDQo+DQo+IFdlIGFsc28gY29uc2lkZXJlZCB3aGV0aGVyIG9yIG5vdCB0byBlLmcuIHRy eSB0byBhZGQgc29tZSBraW5kIG9mIGZsYWcgdG8NCj4gaW5kaWNhdGUgc2VtYW50aWNzIGJ1dCBy ZWNrb25lZCB3ZSBkb24ndCBrbm93IGVub3VnaCB0byBkbyB0aGF0IGZvciBub3cuDQoNClRoaXMg bWlnaHQgYWxzbyBiZSB1c2VmdWwgZm9yIElETiB2YXJpYW50cyB3aGVyZSBzb21lIGRvd25zdHJl YW0gY29uc3VtZXIgd291bGQgbGlrZSB0byBrbm93IHRoYXQgdHdvIGRpZmZlcmVudCBJRE5zIGFy ZSBhY3R1YWxseSAidGhlIHNhbWUiLiBUaGUgcmVsYXRpb25zaGlwIGJldHdlZW4gdmFyaWFudHMg aXNuJ3QgYSBwYXJlbnQtY2hpbGQgcmVsYXRpb25zaGlwICh0aGV5J3JlIG1vcmUgY29tbW9ubHkg c2libGluZ3MpLCBidXQgcGVyaGFwcyB0aGUgY29uY2VwdCBjb3VsZCBiZSBleHRlbmRlZCB0byBp ZGVudGlmeSBzaWJsaW5nIHJlbGF0aW9uc2hpcHMsIHRvby4NCg0KU2NvdHQNCg== From nobody Wed Feb 27 08:52:40 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81F3613100F; 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Wed, 27 Feb 2019 11:51:48 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 bofh.nohats.ca AB6DF5C85B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Paul Wouters X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16D57) In-Reply-To: <804a305f4d1b40daa6e9ca9b3e97f96d@verisign.com> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 11:51:48 -0500 Cc: "stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie" , "Alexander_Brotman@comcast.com" , "art@ietf.org" , "dnsop@ietf.org" , "dbound@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <5de9ba1c3ae34edb9c7f39e0e9c3b143@PACDCEX19.cable.comcast.com> <804a305f4d1b40daa6e9ca9b3e97f96d@verisign.com> To: "Hollenbeck, Scott" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [DNSOP] [dbound] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 16:52:25 -0000 If it is really only a variant, you should just DNAME it to the other domain= ? Sent from mobile device On Feb 27, 2019, at 11:37, Hollenbeck, Scott wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: DNSOP On Behalf Of Stephen Farrell >> Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2019 11:15 AM >> To: Paul Wouters ; Brotman, Alexander >> >> Cc: art@ietf.org; dnsop@ietf.org; dbound@ietf.org >> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [DNSOP] [dbound] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) >> Draft >>=20 >>=20 >> Hiya, >>=20 >>> On 27/02/2019 15:54, Paul Wouters wrote: >>> How is this data being consumed by the enduser ? >>=20 >> Very good question. Sorry for what's likely a longer answer than you want= :-) >>=20 >> Alex and I chatted about that and I think ended up >> figuring: a) there are many potential semantics that could be associated w= ith >> such a linkage, b) we don't yet know what'd be useful, but c) no, we are d= efo >> not trying for an EV-like thing and lastly d) we really want to keep this= as >> simple as possible - given there's a lot of feature-creep potential here,= and >> that'd likely be fatal. >>=20 >> My own use-case for this relates more to surveys, where I'd like to get a= hint >> that two names are related so I could take that into account. Alex's is m= ore >> business like (as you'd expect:-) he'd like to be able to feed this kind o= f >> linkage information into mail processing, e.g. perhaps to treat some mail= s as >> less-likely spam if he sees a link, compared to if he doesn't (with all t= he other >> mail processing foo that'd clearly be required to not do that kind of thi= ng >> stupidly of course). We guess that there'd be other uses too but finding o= ut if >> this is seen as useful enough that people would publish RR's is part of w= hy >> we shot out the draft now. >>=20 >> We also considered whether or not to e.g. try to add some kind of flag to= >> indicate semantics but reckoned we don't know enough to do that for now. >=20 > This might also be useful for IDN variants where some downstream consumer w= ould like to know that two different IDNs are actually "the same". The relat= ionship between variants isn't a parent-child relationship (they're more com= monly siblings), but perhaps the concept could be extended to identify sibli= ng relationships, too. >=20 > Scott > _______________________________________________ > DNSOP mailing list > DNSOP@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From nobody Wed Feb 27 09:21:54 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47D30130EE1 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 09:21:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=Rc1No4fB; dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=Ah7oPYff Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PtP4nt6YdoXe for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 09:21:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A987E130FFF for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 09:21:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 5745 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2019 17:21:43 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=166f.5c76c727.k1902; bh=8nLo+XBXvDYNZi0Qmp36ML6pAfTf1K2CVFX/G7DaP+g=; b=Rc1No4fBSZsOmoJSHcZrMhSiGQIqF9uxyCx7nY6wmsid7MCQke9OrzXwH6+ZjeE8DGN6Qxmy+jKQtC2meqWS/ICXgyFbX0R5R3faS88EtW9z6GUDv9hfDPR5nrzfw8yksHjKax5fmwyKDegSXrt/x20ZjuKClw8H9hGuZp4e3osB4n9quaiTJ2siG97BpL7/vdpkpPBrAUOW9+qcblSvwKnFcHbkIXYQloWx8RiZdggu4CYWuMMigdFh7t8eBlqt DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=166f.5c76c727.k1902; bh=8nLo+XBXvDYNZi0Qmp36ML6pAfTf1K2CVFX/G7DaP+g=; b=Ah7oPYffUHnLYglQZ5cW9JYCGGGugw+N4TroHMn+/XO0GasC0+fDHv5YnFd5j5kGe1AYuTGdebRp3m/UFkwWD1nTbdPkV+GjaPV5Gn0CjbAzvKiuKSynmQfA12DFuVWTbNQ/aNe7k4KN4x3/fkCKSzYVMaiSwQjwbCaBMrls4/e5xUDES3Id+LA+SdJdpPUllFPCQCs4KHuMWAiEDJM6tBHU8wCWaiM/N4HM73aM3/erBThJ5P8B1omzWEzVAB50 Received: from ary.local ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTP via TCP6; 27 Feb 2019 17:21:43 -0000 Received: by ary.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 10303200F57CE0; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 12:21:42 -0500 (EST) Date: 27 Feb 2019 12:21:42 -0500 Message-Id: <20190227172143.10303200F57CE0@ary.local> From: "John Levine" To: art@ietf.org, dbound@ietf.org Cc: paul@nohats.ca In-Reply-To: Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [DNSOP] [dbound] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 17:21:48 -0000 In article you write: >If it is really only a variant, you should just DNAME it to the other domain ? I really wish people would stop saying this. There is a long list of well known reasons that DNAME doesn't work for aliasing 2LD variants. That's why .CAT used to do it but doesn't any more. From nobody Wed Feb 27 09:23:46 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6DFF13102D for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 09:23:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=virtualized-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mOyduQk-62O4 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 09:23:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x535.google.com (mail-pg1-x535.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::535]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2F40713101F for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 09:23:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x535.google.com with SMTP id e17so6223785pgd.2 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 09:23:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=virtualized-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references :to; bh=ttSqyxB3cbhgqQl5fsj8buYvZ3Rg6VFsucrvLmije44=; b=KSm+OWUFLaFmx9Nz5kD1jMRCWyjQN6fQj0ERznBd+ccHQAA1lmNwMefl4Ay3uI36IN cCIOvW7lJxBfqawkgjB+bSrASDPfl0LV6rWTqD9OchlPf7gna7XWBnvXB6viGTXQU5JM gbuC+49X6qJrr8pmMCTBtFDnAkKClXR2mj4w7N2+/29UfAe4HzSMLg6tNyjNRDll2l5m aKSoUVrPyUfFdAsCWXgypqyU38tcBBzzecDCJ6z6mEtpp5oFQS9doc4pdVuxit+VDE4P UwEIQnQkr2hSPjd1wOjmnMQYo1AGlWdgOgw8MTll3sx+LV3I6k0CRcRQYq+J2T0PMXTf c9Hw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to; bh=ttSqyxB3cbhgqQl5fsj8buYvZ3Rg6VFsucrvLmije44=; b=WKezwhEHl6kreTtI9vyqVehFKHmH8PoYakNHroOmuyiFBAPbtjfwVZDdrt1lEt62iK N/n5F9e959EYhslLGdXEvkWD10mf8fL0A8ts0gLwOZz15u+4cNpjH/GrwETBhiUHFK4E bMH4RV8Vq7Jv2Yba/1+P/mNjKeHK3k+5T2foZ5vgBW+V4irZFRDqqlxy12pMq5KAFI28 cHiv5LGz3siBKzNE/nzRSv7Kv/8FpTlXWALuvyweURK51vnNBFVRLviLIvKSbQW9HXa+ 0Exxbefs/n4z6Ajl0RXPAx87A9BZVfzZU1CwlteNiYAIJrgCYgKaxefez/whUYYze8y4 wVbw== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuaRYqfI27fsZy+R9lyLbDefj43seBPoJYxpT6sOgnCxwPnxS9Tq pDaDgtwS7PC1mVVLxkHHFBr9JA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IbgH24qGupZnDyISMKrI82zxtW2vQPOKLQfMj5CGaTe0LMuKerOlmYGny2sEMUq7OnGv7KoYw== X-Received: by 2002:a63:9dc3:: with SMTP id i186mr3948537pgd.305.1551288210360; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 09:23:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.32.61.11] (32-236.lax.icann.org. [192.0.32.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e63sm31993148pfa.116.2019.02.27.09.23.27 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 27 Feb 2019 09:23:29 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0223F428-57F0-4A94-92FB-A199C8BE62D4"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) From: David Conrad In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 18:23:22 +0100 Cc: Paul Wouters , "art@ietf.org" , "dnsop@ietf.org" , "dbound@ietf.org" , Stephen Farrell X-Mailbutler-Message-Id: 836038D5-D2BE-4039-88D3-6AE159723752 Message-Id: <3E32ABA2-6E8E-4E92-A5FB-F194CFC62A5D@virtualized.org> References: <5de9ba1c3ae34edb9c7f39e0e9c3b143@PACDCEX19.cable.comcast.com> To: "Brotman, Alexander" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [dbound] [DNSOP] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 17:23:34 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_0223F428-57F0-4A94-92FB-A199C8BE62D4 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_3E667665-0034-466B-9B15-9669C6E4FC0A" --Apple-Mail=_3E667665-0034-466B-9B15-9669C6E4FC0A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Alexander, On Feb 27, 2019, at 4:32 PM, Brotman, Alexander = wrote: > I'm supportive of doing this in other ways, but also understand that = DNSSEC is not widely deployed. There is a difference between not being deployed and not being turned = on. My impression is that most DNS servers these days support DNSSEC, = however it has largely not been enabled. If you are going to be putting = stuff into the DNS for security decisions, you need to protect that = stuff and that means turning on DNSSEC. Regards, -drc --Apple-Mail=_3E667665-0034-466B-9B15-9669C6E4FC0A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Alexander,

On = Feb 27, 2019, at 4:32 PM, Brotman, Alexander <Alexander_Brotman@comcast.com> wrote:
I'm = supportive of doing this in other ways, but also understand that DNSSEC = is not widely deployed.  

There is a difference between not being deployed = and not being turned on.  My impression is that most DNS servers = these days support DNSSEC, however it has largely not been enabled. =  If you are going to be putting stuff into the DNS for security = decisions, you need to protect that stuff and that means turning on = DNSSEC.

Regards,
-drc


= --Apple-Mail=_3E667665-0034-466B-9B15-9669C6E4FC0A-- --Apple-Mail=_0223F428-57F0-4A94-92FB-A199C8BE62D4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEzEaOGlQw4bcyWBNfoCss/bh3zPcFAlx2x4oACgkQoCss/bh3 zPcO0hAAkp6fvfmuqWoUmzFle7VaThreyHIoJr/h9x3dNFngJBjY5las+mCZUMkx ltV9pRubTjt8JgxsN8zAsN3hhV9BtG50vkzZEpipxIfvjI/gnsocqlY5cHc0KPUJ ZqFGZVVNNpoNA0PB3HXwtaLuY4l1Vc4e2FkJvjAD5JIKXGtvyE2CjdJgfApOAq3q 4/azZOtekBzi6yWURjvff+X5ATh+oQkAlbKXFpXg/TYlSmwTBAa9cqG1knhZO4Yn A+hIlmJhBubgwpCrYqhYEdFJtOgLuUGH40CZ4S2Kkexva9FWhqtb/yhiG4qwajpS RKNEVmKbkfeFMX2ADRcnAWj7YazIgdyrx0FmxQiFarJuk9fTPhX3qI5bdJqBaGb0 mNHX1GzN5/Ooa71FVee6QUt+9ncI+kiJJ5ZgbYbpNKhJP5myL1AG5VDu+WEyc+9n eIarLnmK+UffBzt/fosKWavYmikm8AugFLcAybi6QagE4alfKe3gfLACbLV+2Pn+ VBJOGXJFXg/6xtM42PxL0/wSyv2bUca/9NxMal4NXPoTYc5qAESKuzjlg79bDKPd BZYNQMl0VqNcqEKa2r338sN+wtpw8ybvhglLz9oClTT4hHa3+KisJ/hbvLYXWWrg VHrcvbG/nbwjHB2ksY38q+smv4NHLXTRcu3dJLxjhsNhek87bp8= =GQbM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_0223F428-57F0-4A94-92FB-A199C8BE62D4-- From nobody Wed Feb 27 09:26:08 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D804E131024 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 09:26:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mVLUW2r1wstr for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 09:26:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 65FB3130FE9 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 09:26:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 6603 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2019 17:26:04 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:reply-to:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; s=19c9.5c76c82c.k1902; bh=gsj/sSnUx7UarQGRiLuChokyrtrivXWnc98xnQd9dRg=; b=bbJrCx5MXwxvwkhxKfIQ5wFE9tFtBwwtepzwfO8XeNBJh3+754a9k/uiqsZzSNXsDL9vmIeRlWUD8XDiUqiW05cXmYcT7KrFfFjs0p3oVf/+XJ/VcnigZnzR6krGp/8XV2vrmnT+mccKfJjo+Vz577bXKvmvNiGsyAfYaigL8eZLJd7sq1tM/ZS8UQK+pu3Ma+2LrYCakoT+ja3cs/eDiY5LJTRwWV/A+utQGEoamCu8WyQ4/mQgKMkJfIK3zitN Received: from localhost ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTP via TCP6; 27 Feb 2019 17:26:04 -0000 Date: 27 Feb 2019 12:26:03 -0500 Message-ID: From: "John R. Levine" Reply-To: dbound@ietf.org To: "Stephen Farrell" Cc: "art@ietf.org" , "dnsop@ietf.org" , "dbound@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <8cbf0062-35c6-a8bd-e809-c6a5e9ce16c8@cs.tcd.ie> References: <5de9ba1c3ae34edb9c7f39e0e9c3b143@PACDCEX19.cable.comcast.com> <8cbf0062-35c6-a8bd-e809-c6a5e9ce16c8@cs.tcd.ie> User-Agent: Alpine 2.21 (OSX 202 2017-01-01) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [dbound] [DNSOP] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 17:26:07 -0000 > new signatures), I myself only copped on that this could > be of some use where the primary has DNSSEC but where the > secondary doesn't, which is maybe interesting. In that case, the primary can just publish pointers to the secondaries, and we're done. The DKIM-like signatures have an odd model where the primary has enough control over its DNS to publish the validation key, and enough to give the secondaries signed records for their names they can publish that point back to that key, but not enough just to publish the secondaries' names directly. I don't get it. Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From nobody Wed Feb 27 10:39:10 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FCCC1310AB for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 10:38:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FeD4BwLhvgSp for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 10:38:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x742.google.com (mail-qk1-x742.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::742]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EBA4D1310A1 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 10:38:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x742.google.com with SMTP id h28so10479463qkk.7 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 10:38:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=2QPCN32Ao2HiNLp+i6ku3dRSMhR7eyjHhcOIkTPD7tk=; b=l9/mQAeURPi0ZrCFulSN6Ku3t/i6oAfI5CFrKxeacwdlWgks4dUKFCxNS6Dx6wiL79 YDztJjRQ5C1NPW+GY6tu/1pf7nEUfgelJCti6LKfUla3IXy+2542+wXX9FiVSjKAvM7v CxKrqeSCcPxoo+Vygymv19+yX4DmBgY/aLuYj+/vL9/bB9eeQ3kdnKrH+lqjHVBXlU7N MpbNyQPBCWK6hJkcq7JjTkq+p8Zujxf2W77iEm9lue87MjCARvbDAlYtDP3gGfdbHp1l DM8pFCgbEU/NAr9CHm1/9keeAk3OhjhCthY2J9xF3kyg6EjHRPMuOkTOTTEsAFR/BKfz cfYg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=2QPCN32Ao2HiNLp+i6ku3dRSMhR7eyjHhcOIkTPD7tk=; b=hMlMhiX7cUHMZyi2jvojvTZqRCZ9tjIPKJZ8XE/YSVLp30PaDLYJchdLbAMhRsNA7q 9oUuOccwZLYxsjiebhuyhpuLMb8YwJ7SBAgU6o6+/D834IOuZ7M/SQ3Wcgpcm4fLQKXH DHFCNlD1v9ZxmXDvKG01MRcEaI0I/QGQp3UFccGIgkFNQGKH6C5uy4T1yiYfNmR8Cmsn fZcb+QGVGJ0VZKp4o410wIVkwufb/87tfb4J+GOx+vsA7LhyqJt9Q9JJrUAJH8wi+JOJ TLRxL/b9rEQikU6SrPzpJaf+cbS+xntVeA1l+3y9Q7E+E7CjGEZKbTK0roCpdVwNh+to bMtQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuZ6LRy7NxS2vhWMJbX8IXyQkJRwXKa/jR7G3Hj5EgQRNTn/Ozjv Jj5yP6hDf+zhxs/VwAjVccmSjQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IY/f4J14AyrkkINfQCGNGqXkYevc8creyvFKWCLQnERJk+XPBjKMcZYHD8yIOpJmYBXfQzcQA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:1362:: with SMTP id d2mr3373237qkl.210.1551292730827; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 10:38:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.100.12] (c-73-186-137-119.hsd1.nh.comcast.net. [73.186.137.119]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o26sm8915764qkk.51.2019.02.27.10.38.49 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 27 Feb 2019 10:38:49 -0800 (PST) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9E73AE07-C186-4A6D-83C3-51E8CDC2460C" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.2\)) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 13:38:46 -0500 In-Reply-To: <8cbf0062-35c6-a8bd-e809-c6a5e9ce16c8@cs.tcd.ie> Cc: Paul Wouters , "Brotman, Alexander" , "art@ietf.org" , "dnsop@ietf.org" , "dbound@ietf.org" To: Stephen Farrell References: <5de9ba1c3ae34edb9c7f39e0e9c3b143@PACDCEX19.cable.comcast.com> <8cbf0062-35c6-a8bd-e809-c6a5e9ce16c8@cs.tcd.ie> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [DNSOP] [dbound] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 18:38:56 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_9E73AE07-C186-4A6D-83C3-51E8CDC2460C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On Feb 27, 2019, at 10:57 AM, Stephen Farrell = wrote: > Yep. After both domains have DNSSEC, then this could all be > simpler. Before they do, there may be value in the sigs though > see John's simplification suggestion at [1]. If they don=E2=80=99t have DNSSEC, what=E2=80=99s the point of saying = the domains are related anyway? What are the security properties of = such an assertion when the content of the zones can=E2=80=99t be = validated? --Apple-Mail=_9E73AE07-C186-4A6D-83C3-51E8CDC2460C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On = Feb 27, 2019, at 10:57 AM, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:
Yep. After both domains have DNSSEC, then this could all = be
simpler. = Before they do, there may be value in the sigs though
see John's = simplification suggestion at [1].

If they don=E2=80=99t have DNSSEC, what=E2=80=99s = the point of saying the domains are related anyway?   What are the = security properties of such an assertion when the content of the zones = can=E2=80=99t be validated?


= --Apple-Mail=_9E73AE07-C186-4A6D-83C3-51E8CDC2460C-- From nobody Wed Feb 27 11:58:56 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6B681310AC; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 11:58:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GDkOAbrJN8ca; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 11:58:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6ADF6128766; 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url= Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABtDJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPokCQAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxLkCDQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: <249a56b6-7bf6-d1e3-2639-0f2d8043aa3e@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 19:58:46 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="b3qZP7poFqdgO1rwluqh5E64zA1Mjz3vT" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [DNSOP] [dbound] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 19:58:55 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --b3qZP7poFqdgO1rwluqh5E64zA1Mjz3vT Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="AO36SZebxzHqFuuCwdF9NWGgISddqlCmP"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Ted Lemon Cc: "art@ietf.org" , "Brotman, Alexander" , Paul Wouters , "dnsop@ietf.org" , "dbound@ietf.org" Message-ID: <249a56b6-7bf6-d1e3-2639-0f2d8043aa3e@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [art] [DNSOP] [dbound] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft References: <5de9ba1c3ae34edb9c7f39e0e9c3b143@PACDCEX19.cable.comcast.com> <8cbf0062-35c6-a8bd-e809-c6a5e9ce16c8@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: --AO36SZebxzHqFuuCwdF9NWGgISddqlCmP Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------F55017405A9D9B9208775EFC" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F55017405A9D9B9208775EFC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Answering two for the price of one... On 27/02/2019 17:26, John R. Levine wrote:>> new signatures), I myself only copped on that this could >> be of some use where the primary has DNSSEC but where the >> secondary doesn't, which is maybe interesting. > > In that case, the primary can just publish pointers to the secondaries,= > and we're done. > > The DKIM-like signatures have an odd model where the primary has enough= > control over its DNS to publish the validation key, and enough to give > the secondaries signed records for their names they can publish that > point back to that key, but not enough just to publish the secondaries'= > names directly. I don't get it. That could work, but'd mean the primary having to store all the records and an extra lookup if even if you had the public key cached. I believe the former could be an issue if there are many secondaries, at least according to one chat I had with someone involved with many domains (which I'm not). I think the design in our -00 is a bit better than that, but not hugely better and it's ok we can disagree about it - if this goes somewhere there'll be plenty of time to thrash it out as we go. On 27/02/2019 18:38, Ted Lemon wrote: > On Feb 27, 2019, at 10:57 AM, Stephen Farrell=20 > wrote: >> Yep. After both domains have DNSSEC, then this could all be=20 >> simpler. Before they do, there may be value in the sigs though see=20 >> John's simplification suggestion at [1]. >=20 > If they don=E2=80=99t have DNSSEC, what=E2=80=99s the point of saying t= he domains > are related anyway? What are the security properties of such an=20 > assertion when the content of the zones can=E2=80=99t be validated? The point of making the assertion would be in the eye of the beholder. The level of confidence one might have in such an assertion (without DNSSEC) should of course be lower. But we do work without DNSSEC for almost everything today so I'm not convinced "no DNSSEC" =3D> can't be done here. (And again, the use-cases we've discussed are not high-security ones.) FWIW, I am a fan of DNSSEC, deploy it for domains I control, and do consider that despite it's gnarliness it provides real benefits. But I don't believe we can seriously require it as a pre-requisite for almost anything today, and nor do I believe that our proposal, if it goes ahead would by itself cause people to deploy DNSSEC. So ISTM that making DNSSEC a MUST-use isn't the right approach in this case. Cheers, S. >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ art mailing list=20 > art@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art >=20 --------------F55017405A9D9B9208775EFC Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 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27 Feb 2019 12:54:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gbjBvBn8f83u; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 12:54:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 26FC013112B; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 12:54:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1gz6Di-000PTj-56; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 15:54:26 -0500 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 15:54:21 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: John Levine cc: art@ietf.org, dbound@ietf.org Message-ID: <1FFA1977E97DE99C390869DA@PSB> In-Reply-To: <20190227172143.10303200F57CE0@ary.local> References: <20190227172143.10303200F57CE0@ary.local> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [DNSOP] [dbound] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 20:54:30 -0000 --On Wednesday, February 27, 2019 12:21 -0500 John Levine wrote: > In article > you write: >> If it is really only a variant, you should just DNAME it to >> the other domain ? > > I really wish people would stop saying this. There is a long > list of well known reasons that DNAME doesn't work for > aliasing 2LD variants. Because "let's throw DNAME (or a small variation) at variants" comes up so often, while I agree with John about the long list, at least one aspect of it is probably worth mentioning. It requires understanding "tree" but not any special understanding of IDNs, variants, etc. Suppose there is a relationship between two characters (fussy definitions not required) X and Y such that one would like to consider a label containing X but otherwise identical to a label containing Y as making those labels "variants" of each other (again, fussy definitions not required and this example works for things like synonyms or even translations whether one calls them "variants" or not. Now suppose we have abX.dXf.TLD and abY.dYf.TLD (or abX.ghi.dXf.TLD and abY.ghi.dYf.TLD) These cases are going to be quite common with reasonable use of such relationships if there is a predictable relationship between X and Y that depends on local habits, different languages using the same script, or the like. Whether we are talking about "variants" in the sense of RFC 3743 (the JET spec that introduced the term), look-alike characters, different spellings, or language translations, whatever principles cause a need for such a pairing to occur at the second level are also going to cause it to occur at the third level and below if the same relationships hold. The reasons why a cross-tree alias, like DNAME, between, e.g., dXf.TLD -> dYf.TLD either won't allow abY to exist and/or will cause problems with whatever it is trying to accomplish are left as an exercise, but the exercise should be very clear. So I too wish that people would stop saying this, proposing one-offs from DNAME, etc. best, john From nobody Wed Feb 27 13:04:13 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48862128AFB for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 13:04:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.343 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.343 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_REMOTE_IMAGE=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=jothan-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vWxRNLu5pfsO for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 13:04:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ua1-x942.google.com (mail-ua1-x942.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::942]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 56DBF12426E for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 13:04:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ua1-x942.google.com with SMTP id s15so16762823uap.6 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 13:04:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jothan-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=VrdB0DR9ir1vYV7sSgQLBWytAHm+RlNgpQ3MdfKp1oQ=; b=wRcVBvZBN7E7ijWJR2j2FkAaNilnnZ/cz5xqgTfoJm36eASddjSzWzF1CozBjbwWtA sGeCQ3JEZ9jDcU7jGUXkPYMwZYGWzjFjEwjpgEEJ/1srpxPabBc6siwa4HeRZa/eb0oG 3m8chIsgbl4MffpM2ESoFZPgmzDQrCfD0EromvRvavT0XCacPfAYvnJfv7pN0MMT/h5Z aroktljOe7jc2OZ83t63exQweyQJh3gA6lsP8U/ykgCXX4mYdiW5sp5xnvfOXW7QrSfO DM0tO7B8Tuigp23xBrGsQdai1Skdl9nNiBkvQeybHKbzXng2fHGgbkSwwGZ/jsTqDQok AyZg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=VrdB0DR9ir1vYV7sSgQLBWytAHm+RlNgpQ3MdfKp1oQ=; b=B1+OoPwcLH0Omx9Px84VRe5lzFL6hvEZmAVaYIrljzGi3uio+YulTc0b078OS4Dd+k hdV48K0Imy7S9J775YKo+Uw7JuZdomooUfkbZO0CjbrGueU78KwhyRr4nxzzK/l1Lte6 rq38Z8KBqfTkUTuqi2kxwJx3vJdL4zXevYf6Tpbaxzc0W5vyeIxMpENdo6BG7QR79x2A FBoMzmajPsCC7DMtXXjWLfoXZUi2hyexe+bvbF+r9AXbX2L//vOqm7hGRQbJG3ZPrZmL UnmZ00HnG5KsprkxtWOpiHngNVaAGu/Wi00l/9FNox4FCwD0d59l6rvDvUdWdp9a9lPP JsXg== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuZr6qUjnuQC+XisurVBryoMlRroU9CV4leK32+LVc0G3PIzpSrL sLUyqkjAkMONwsmlL3kn0qBdQ03imrHn7CENPEOhYA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IZJhooQv+ouUerPpylayfqmk8+ILSmhFbb//VeB1ljTuHDDfQdpB4Xjk/VcB8iM8HGM/LkD1d5G3E6raS2Smeg= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:748a:: with SMTP id n10mr3381695uap.89.1551301442223; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 13:04:02 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20190227172143.10303200F57CE0@ary.local> In-Reply-To: <20190227172143.10303200F57CE0@ary.local> From: Jothan Frakes Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 13:03:24 -0800 Message-ID: To: John Levine Cc: art@ietf.org, dbound@ietf.org, paul@nohats.ca Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006758420582e6838d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [dbound] [DNSOP] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 21:04:05 -0000 --0000000000006758420582e6838d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I agree with John(s) on the DNAME comment - DNAME keeps being presented as the golden cure - it is not the solution one might think it could have been for variant _stuff_, though it does have some benefits Jothan On Wed, Feb 27, 2019 at 9:21 AM John Levine wrote: > In article you write: > >If it is really only a variant, you should just DNAME it to the other > domain ? > > I really wish people would stop saying this. There is a long list of > well known reasons that DNAME doesn't work for aliasing 2LD variants. > That's why .CAT used to do it but doesn't any more. > > _______________________________________________ > dbound mailing list > dbound@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dbound > --0000000000006758420582e6838d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I agree with John(s) on the DNAME comment= - DNAME keeps being presented as the golden cure - it is not the solution = one might think it could have been for variant _stuff_, though it does have= some benefits

Jothan


On Wed, Feb 27= , 2019 at 9:21 AM John Levine <johnl@= taugh.com> wrote:
In article <A59F2895-6369-4E84-A86B-C6585AB29D83@noh= ats.ca> you write:
>If it is really only a variant, you should just DNAME it to the other d= omain ?

I really wish people would stop saying this.=C2=A0 There is a long list of<= br> well known reasons that DNAME doesn't work for aliasing 2LD variants. That's why .CAT used to do it but doesn't any more.

_______________________________________________
dbound mailing list
dbound@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dbound
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Sheldon" To: "Brotman, Alexander" , "art@ietf.org" , "dbound@ietf.org" CC: "dnsop@ietf.org" , Stephen Farrell Thread-Topic: [DNSOP] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft Thread-Index: AdTNSNgC8Q46/YWfTPCiSrkXJ1OYgQBoaqiA Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 22:19:33 +0000 Message-ID: References: <5de9ba1c3ae34edb9c7f39e0e9c3b143@PACDCEX19.cable.comcast.com> In-Reply-To: <5de9ba1c3ae34edb9c7f39e0e9c3b143@PACDCEX19.cable.comcast.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [2600:8800:2800:8db:6a6e:1d88:205:32e2] x-clientproxiedby: BYAPR08CA0051.namprd08.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:117::28) To BYAPR02MB5190.namprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:68::15) authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=msheldon@godaddy.com; x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 71997c7f-9c80-4a02-3407-08d69d01a65b x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; 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28 Feb 2019 01:48:56 -0000 Date: 27 Feb 2019 20:48:56 -0500 Message-ID: From: "John R Levine" To: "John C Klensin" Cc: art@ietf.org, dbound@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <1FFA1977E97DE99C390869DA@PSB> References: <20190227172143.10303200F57CE0@ary.local> <1FFA1977E97DE99C390869DA@PSB> User-Agent: Alpine 2.21 (OSX 202 2017-01-01) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [DNSOP] [dbound] not DNAME, was Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2019 01:49:01 -0000 On Wed, 27 Feb 2019, John C Klensin wrote: > at least one aspect of it is probably worth mentioning. It > requires understanding "tree" but not any special understanding > of IDNs, variants, etc. You don't even have to go that for. Let's say you do this: foo.com. DNAME bar.org. Then www.foo.com will be an alias for www.bar.org, but DNAMEs only affect names below themselves, so foo.com will remain undefined, and you can't put a CNAME and a DNAME on the same name. This makes it useless for what most people imagine they want to use it for. There's the additional issue that an MX with a target of a CNAME or DNAME doesn't work reliably, and the point you made that if you've got variants, you can get a very bushy tree every time a variant character appears in a label. This issue has been argued at great length with proposals like BNAME and CLONE so let's not redo it here. Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From nobody Wed Feb 27 18:10:18 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5443130ECF for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 18:10:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=B5HqItVX; dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=fzQHZ/YR Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k-B6f5LsLDKx for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 18:10:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C6EF912E04D for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 18:10:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 70194 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2019 02:03:33 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:reply-to:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=11230.5c774175.k1902; bh=2f2OxB/3AD+cX0MyYgUBXX9iSAv7iAVj90ce5T0Qa/4=; b=B5HqItVX98OCOYRAtf1v79QtU1IZ7uMhWC/y1xKBGxVrrjQJvwY6JQk4ms7aMeRSc+t4YSMiL7/J/w5N4D2yPXkZrH4KNofQ0PDvPSneYeB8fxNm4c19muMIFR4Yava/Dbc9hDX4DgXUCZG3WYWmBKi9DWVdrK4L0gkCa0TEofrulpkPvjP4Q9DuJ/CxwiREJOTCaxyG5Q9pB1uIpMk7b6bkUlcBsPOBsq8myJEMWjk/Ty9DHgADZNP1SdQ1aspd DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:reply-to:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=11230.5c774175.k1902; bh=2f2OxB/3AD+cX0MyYgUBXX9iSAv7iAVj90ce5T0Qa/4=; b=fzQHZ/YR6kf/ctlixBs1XIGkIrL1N6h2r4NmFjOXu4L8IQkBoY+1RDWAHixdnul7owB4ZOb9eyNl78xhW66pBoe55hgVz9fP0D2Q/NW+GE3O7dnTlsy+3syS4knaNQeze7M3vx1ajL+/v9DgfY1Y1UOlu+QbLJ2fG/aAWGh1rCfNmSh6YI7E1R3L4DCk28mBQwa9geVqYCNyXXgOZlFleb0Cg8HG70aYmEpT49+YIhUUc/adR2lJpJV73+AD4c5P Received: from ary.local ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTP via TCP6; 28 Feb 2019 02:03:32 -0000 Received: by ary.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id D2112200F6CEC9; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 21:03:32 -0500 (EST) Date: 27 Feb 2019 21:03:32 -0500 Message-Id: <20190228020332.D2112200F6CEC9@ary.local> From: "John Levine" Reply-To: dbound@ietf.org To: art@ietf.org, dbound@ietf.org, dnsop@ietf.org Cc: stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie In-Reply-To: <249a56b6-7bf6-d1e3-2639-0f2d8043aa3e@cs.tcd.ie> Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [DNSOP] [dbound] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2019 02:10:17 -0000 In article <249a56b6-7bf6-d1e3-2639-0f2d8043aa3e@cs.tcd.ie> you write: >> point back to that key, but not enough just to publish the secondaries' >> names directly. I don't get it. > >That could work, but'd mean the primary having to store >all the records and an extra lookup if even if you had the >public key cached. I believe the former could be an issue >if there are many secondaries, at least according to one >chat I had with someone involved with many domains (which >I'm not). Well, OK, if that's an issue you spread the names out like we did with VBR. If the primary is foo.com and the secondary is bar.org: bar.org._same.foo.com. SAME . ; yes, we're a primary for whatever name that was _same.bar.org. SAME foo.com. ; yes, we're secondary for foo.com. This makes it somewhat more difficult to scrape all the secondaries for a primary which may be a feature. R's, John From nobody Wed Feb 27 18:17:44 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA97412D861; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 18:17:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xdPKpx529MBK; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 18:17:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4CF8F12867A; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 18:17:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0652CBE38; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 02:17:11 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nMwa39mSk4Tv; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 02:17:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.244.2.138] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 42DD0BE2E; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 02:17:05 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1551320225; bh=iLJO6W/VnwdnWiLFwtvRdr/a7qzja/OS7IBfZ1v4wUc=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=UBDNpGGTzUtD71KyupAPQKXRU6oOPy3tQq7nDm/CCuqcrZlygmXcuA+9IuNadAFBK MCUNq5t6rrCcGF1a0q07dUgI6DxOs2m0IhHtK38ouvUXQAMUkMfuATtgbr0+LU0lCO siK+DRwlB+p36URWHHikfM4JRTlIiUj/MQirOKaY= To: dbound@ietf.org, John Levine , art@ietf.org, dnsop@ietf.org References: <20190228020332.D2112200F6CEC9@ary.local> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; 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Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20190228020332.D2112200F6CEC9@ary.local> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="sMv3FW3LtF0KIqRUXDWYuFZ5pAd3QLiW2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [dbound] [DNSOP] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2019 02:17:16 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --sMv3FW3LtF0KIqRUXDWYuFZ5pAd3QLiW2 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="UYUJECyKkq4ux6B6gdTPyFvVifizikgVj"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: dbound@ietf.org, John Levine , art@ietf.org, dnsop@ietf.org Message-ID: <7af62833-8ec7-df92-9241-1f8ce92b0d9a@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [dbound] [art] [DNSOP] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft References: <20190228020332.D2112200F6CEC9@ary.local> In-Reply-To: <20190228020332.D2112200F6CEC9@ary.local> --UYUJECyKkq4ux6B6gdTPyFvVifizikgVj Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------1C526C24358E2DB43434235C" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1C526C24358E2DB43434235C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 28/02/2019 02:03, John Levine wrote: > Well, OK, if that's an issue you spread the names out like we did with > VBR. If the primary is foo.com and the secondary is bar.org: >=20 > bar.org._same.foo.com. SAME . ; yes, we're a primary for whatever name = that was >=20 > _same.bar.org. SAME foo.com. ; yes, we're secondary for foo.com. >=20 > This makes it somewhat more difficult to scrape all the secondaries > for a primary which may be a feature. Yep, that could work. I still prefer the design in our -00 though (sorry:-) as in your scheme here foo.com's zone will have to change with every change in a linkage whereas in the -00 design, changes are only needed in each of the bar.org zones that actually do change. (I think the counter to that might relate to difficulty in synchronising changes to keys/selectors in our -00 design which can have unexpected effects as we saw in the case of DKIM and a particular mail corpus leak in 2016;-). To be clear: for my purposes I'd be ok with various of the designs we've been discussing - even if I think some are better than others, they're nearly equally ok. I think the main thing is to try keep it simple (as you've been doing) and to try find out if people might publish such values (absent which, there's no much point in publishing an RFC). 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([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTP via TCP6; 28 Feb 2019 02:26:02 -0000 Date: 27 Feb 2019 21:26:01 -0500 Message-ID: From: "John R Levine" Reply-To: dbound@ietf.org To: "Stephen Farrell" Cc: dbound@ietf.org, art@ietf.org, dnsop@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <7af62833-8ec7-df92-9241-1f8ce92b0d9a@cs.tcd.ie> References: <20190228020332.D2112200F6CEC9@ary.local> <7af62833-8ec7-df92-9241-1f8ce92b0d9a@cs.tcd.ie> User-Agent: Alpine 2.21 (OSX 202 2017-01-01) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [dbound] [DNSOP] Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2019 02:32:47 -0000 On Thu, 28 Feb 2019, Stephen Farrell wrote: >> bar.org._same.foo.com. SAME . ; yes, we're a primary for whatever name that was >> _same.bar.org. SAME foo.com. ; yes, we're secondary for foo.com. > Yep, that could work. I still prefer the design in our > -00 though (sorry:-) as in your scheme here foo.com's zone > will have to change with every change in a linkage whereas > in the -00 design, changes are only needed in each of the > bar.org zones that actually do change. (I think the counter > to that might relate to difficulty in synchronising changes > to keys/selectors in our -00 design which can have unexpected > effects as we saw in the case of DKIM and a particular mail > corpus leak in 2016;-). Sure, but pick your poison. With your scheme you need a mutant DKIM signer at the primary and a way to send the result to the secondary. With mine, you just add a record. I realize that one or the other may be easier depending on where an organization's processes are broken but it's not obvious to me that the more complex design has an easier process. Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From nobody Wed Feb 27 19:52:30 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75E1E130DC4; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 19:52:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hvTYCFnITY5z; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 19:52:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DA5D312F18C; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 19:52:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1gzCk7-0000sy-0y; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 22:52:19 -0500 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 22:52:13 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: John R Levine cc: art@ietf.org, dbound@ietf.org Message-ID: <49A2FC767B5A7146F39456B9@PSB> In-Reply-To: References: <20190227172143.10303200F57CE0@ary.local> <1FFA1977E97DE99C390869DA@PSB> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [DNSOP] [dbound] not DNAME, was Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2019 03:52:23 -0000 --On Wednesday, February 27, 2019 20:48 -0500 John R Levine wrote: > On Wed, 27 Feb 2019, John C Klensin wrote: >> at least one aspect of it is probably worth mentioning. It >> requires understanding "tree" but not any special >> understanding of IDNs, variants, etc. > > You don't even have to go that for. Actually, you are identifying cases I was deliberately avoiding, precisely because fixes have been proposed that might almost work but that still don't solve, or allow solutions for, the tree problem. > Let's say you do this: > > foo.com. DNAME bar.org. > > Then www.foo.com will be an alias for www.bar.org, but DNAMEs > only affect names below themselves, so foo.com will remain > undefined, and you can't put a CNAME and a DNAME on the same > name. This makes it useless for what most people imagine they > want to use it for. Yes. > There's the additional issue that an MX with a target of a > CNAME or DNAME doesn't work reliably, "doesn't work reliably" may or may not be a synonym for "is explicitly prohibited by SMTP" but the latter is true is any event. > and the point you made > that if you've got variants, you can get a very bushy tree > every time a variant character appears in a label. Yep. And that raises several other issues with this proposal, all of which I was trying to avoid because they are (i) more complicated and (ii) involve more or less subtle DNS issues. > This issue has been argued at great length with proposals like > BNAME and CLONE so let's not redo it here. Indeed. john From nobody Thu Feb 28 05:32:07 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1EBC130E69; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 05:32:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NpgywNb7kHcO; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 05:31:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppsw-30.csi.cam.ac.uk (ppsw-30.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.130]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A96CD130E7F; Thu, 28 Feb 2019 05:31:57 -0800 (PST) X-Cam-AntiVirus: no malware found X-Cam-ScannerInfo: http://help.uis.cam.ac.uk/email-scanner-virus Received: from grey.csi.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.57.57]:46358) by ppsw-30.csi.cam.ac.uk (ppsw.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.136]:25) with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) id 1gzLmy-000hLW-eD (Exim 4.91) (return-path ); Thu, 28 Feb 2019 13:31:52 +0000 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2019 13:31:51 +0000 From: Tony Finch To: John C Klensin cc: John R Levine , art@ietf.org, dbound@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <49A2FC767B5A7146F39456B9@PSB> Message-ID: References: <20190227172143.10303200F57CE0@ary.local> <1FFA1977E97DE99C390869DA@PSB> <49A2FC767B5A7146F39456B9@PSB> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (DEB 67 2015-01-07) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [DNSOP] [dbound] not DNAME, was Related Domains By DNS (RDBD) Draft X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2019 13:32:05 -0000 John C Klensin wrote: > John R Levine wrote: > > > There's the additional issue that an MX with a target of a > > CNAME or DNAME doesn't work reliably, > > "doesn't work reliably" may or may not be a synonym for "is > explicitly prohibited by SMTP" but the latter is true is any > event. Actually the issue here is not the target of the MX but its owner, i.e. the mail domain itself. As you know, professor (to coin a phrase) if I have: foo.example MX mx.foo.example bar.example CNAME foo.example This is allowed per SMTP. However there are disagreements between various versions of the specification and various implementations about what this means. Some treat it as equivalent to bar.example MX mx.foo.example Others treat it as equivalent to a directive that says addresses @bar.example should have the domain part rewritten to foo.example. So if you have CNAME (or DNAME) pointing at MX and you want the alias to be usable as a mail domain, you have to be super careful with the setup of the target mail servers to work around the interoperability gotchas. On the other hand, although MX pointing at CNAME is formally frowned on, AIUI it works fine in practice. Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch http://dotat.at/ East Forties: Northerly 4 or 5. Slight or moderate. Fair. Good. 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