From nobody Sun Jul 7 13:14:48 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92A741200B4 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2019 13:14:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WMQd-PeN9CYa for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2019 13:14:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C8E4120099 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2019 13:14:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.110] (p548DC676.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.198.118]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 45hfv61XXPzyP1; Sun, 7 Jul 2019 22:14:42 +0200 (CEST) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 584223278.688527-ffda993947fa01f603b1696d0e3a74b7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2019 22:14:41 +0200 Message-Id: To: art@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: [art] Modern Network Unicode X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2019 20:14:47 -0000 This week, I have been asked twice (for independent drafts) what these drafts should say about their usage of Unicode. It turns out, we have an RFC that is almost, but not entirely unlike what is needed to reference for a new protocol that uses text: RFC 5198. I have tried to build on that in the very short draft: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bormann-dispatch-modern-network-unicode I would expect that such a specification, once completed, would be a useful point of reference for any new protocols that need to use text without any specific requirements imposed by their applications. (Protocols that already have been around probably benefit less, because there always are legacy considerations.) I'm not yet asking for dispatching this document; right now I would just like to receive feedback from this esteemed community to further improve the document. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Sun Jul 7 13:44:55 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 277B5120223 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2019 13:44:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zcSO59IWWbfg for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2019 13:44:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x52a.google.com (mail-ed1-x52a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 20F061200CE for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2019 13:44:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x52a.google.com with SMTP id k21so12691705edq.3 for ; Sun, 07 Jul 2019 13:44:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=bkVdkh6IMTu01nc3fdfa4E7qVPsMyzLpcicxBEKEjhI=; b=Uk/Xl6DchpzHlK1U7iDsudcknC/GDxqUR8LXUiAJh3nmqVGiu9idWp2wnxwzkuqa+1 O9IGYrRYuSVZhR7IciwFWDDgZmegZ6/MSQcEy0rl/UP1m9Nqrt0lpQcSLiBvueJP8DHu P89tkUMZLjff10qr9xNjwBT6G0BLZpLJVNZ1vGjjHkYzXddM5WHd4kzRIN+Ma42A5U8U Rix5hmj3UjJOuLmcaNV4Y2YGZUTRr+zQCKdpWJv3lyyt04BiEOS7Gq7EgoGPfVCiaAhu nvA7lGQw3ebHMv411torq5PHbXPYUU14mHNiSAQfQjY/nPGrJRHUXHwMPEkK/yzik566 WZJg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=bkVdkh6IMTu01nc3fdfa4E7qVPsMyzLpcicxBEKEjhI=; b=YAFw0I711gSQH7JsN5RFNx6KIz20VdkVuO55baTkOLxdH1KiSk8tqcAX3rBQtvhd2m TcKCMqigJqpU0OmJKzJDNXC8L7h6gGzeSl0DgLeUCQHs9v/q8LXyc+2BiLux8ZS7YJZK Pe4kwruel4RP3iLg0Iq+0YtE0ERn9KWWQBEMdoCpHURod/G63gHj52prO9O4YA2RneIT 2aKyVyRivVS+YFFE+P6Xin2QL0jd+DOwEDV1lQIqKCKiRFymzxA2vT+xWdm9U35F8o+A 4Xf03BQI89Lv9XUEoNqguZvevvyyYZYyyYPjnTYw6O8CBq9tq+l8FNgJImu7p8eQMWK1 f1ug== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVKJvuP3qhQnE3N0sVL72KWaI3F3CIPF3nw6UDJEwk1SMnGWepu ZtI23aRQwyo7C86rkk3614CJf7eYoTtUnSFMUMlroOzbozM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxrjpyVbf5EQ2S7EIYOqxysFMP/AyxidG7A/+1mgEmJ8pjmybDmQHISo+C8x9/UPWJ0ygp35EbxAaMJcCeJxdw= X-Received: by 2002:a50:ac07:: with SMTP id v7mr16573176edc.205.1562532271126; Sun, 07 Jul 2019 13:44:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Gary Illyes Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2019 22:44:20 +0200 Message-ID: To: art@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f8cf8b058d1d6493" Archived-At: Subject: [art] Draft submission: Robots Exclusion Protocol X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2019 20:44:53 -0000 --000000000000f8cf8b058d1d6493 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi ART, As you may have seen, a group has gotten together with Martijn Koster to create an internet-draft which restates the Robots Exclusion Protocol using updated ABNF and prescriptions. The current draft is (draft-koster-rep). If you get a chance, we'd appreciate your confirming that it matches your understanding of current practice and that the specification is clear even for edge cases. You can send mail to me to forward on to the author team or address it to the emails listed in the draft. Thanks for your help, Gary Illyes Google Switzerland https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-koster-rep/ --000000000000f8cf8b058d1d6493 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi ART,

As you may have seen, a group has gotten together wi= th Martijn Koster to create an internet-draft which restates the Robots Exc= lusion Protocol using updated ABNF and prescriptions.=C2=A0 The current dra= ft is (draft-koster-rep).=C2=A0 If you get a chance, we'd appreciate yo= ur confirming that it matches your understanding of current practice and th= at the specification is clear even for edge cases.=C2=A0 You can send mail = to me to forward on to the author team or address it to the emails listed i= n the draft.=C2=A0=C2=A0

Th= anks for your help,
Gary Illyes
= Google Switzerland

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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:SY2PR01MB3114; H:SY2PR01MB2764.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:0; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: team.telstra.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: RAAWSmprJeqc6USL07WQCWFZx5wZvHHla7c+cZNf+4gX3as/59VP5cs8S7DwjX/fpfpjk86ReZUqCnw7rLivE4b/pGEfJoTg5GfzKSxso8ddAszgq+R7bmzymx4niXqA3o6QbKv++B6GA1lQb6cjxf83uO6CCaYyiMlYRH6nIPuiYy/ecIZ21cy6MeE+KE3xX/Ol5adMwQrvoGSirVtrt8kdk9C4pytSFwwbzKOUuq4dRK6wq6CNKZ5d4Y1SBzmsx1jUbDwmGruBM7Ba+qu7xB2m5rFX/chOnfm4WbT0CeMI5SVoooBXcGhvXppW1OrdK2Cjd+Nah7RZ6xNEF0IR813dzuk2oegs8g4n6YSupJX1zMBAValApthLFVIWlHe48h9XoXzZqOq5zJxpdwZagT6XjCAfJqkd+E3t6NDc3u4= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 444fa598-da08-44c9-090f-08d7034a9950 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 08 Jul 2019 02:18:42.9667 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 49dfc6a3-5fb7-49f4-adea-c54e725bb854 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: James.H.Manger@team.telstra.com X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SY2PR01MB3114 X-OriginatorOrg: team.telstra.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Modern Network Unicode X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2019 02:22:22 -0000 PiBodHRwczovL3Rvb2xzLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwvZHJhZnQtYm9ybWFubi1kaXNwYXRjaC1tb2Rl cm4tbmV0d29yay11bmljb2RlDQoNCldvdWxkIGJlIG5pY2VyIGlmIGl0IHdhc24ndCB3cml0dGVu IGFzIGEgZGlmZiBmcm9tIFJGQzUxOTggKE5ldHdvcmsgVW5pY29kZSkuIFRoYXQgaXMsIGlmIHlv dSBjb3VsZCBnZXQgYWxsIHRoZSBydWxlcyBkaXJlY3RseSBmcm9tIHRoaXMgZG9jLiBGb3IgaW5z dGFuY2UsIEkgYXNzdW1lIENsZWFuIE1vZGVybiBOZXR3b3JrIFVuaWNvZGUgbXVzdC9zaG91bGQg YmUgTkZDLiBLZWVwIHRoZSBSRkM1MTk4IGNvbXBhcmlzb25zIGZvciBhbiBpbmZvcm1hdGl2ZSBh bm5leC4NCg0KQUJORiBmb3IgdWNoYXIgZG9lc24ndCBleGNsdWRlIFUrMjAyOCBhbmQgVSsyMDI5 Lg0KDQotLQ0KSmFtZXMgTWFuZ2VyDQoNCi0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQpGcm9t OiBhcnQgPGFydC1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnPiBPbiBCZWhhbGYgT2YgQ2Fyc3RlbiBCb3JtYW5u DQpTZW50OiBNb25kYXksIDggSnVseSAyMDE5IDY6MTUgQU0NClRvOiBhcnRAaWV0Zi5vcmcNClN1 YmplY3Q6IFthcnRdIE1vZGVybiBOZXR3b3JrIFVuaWNvZGUNCg0KVGhpcyB3ZWVrLCBJIGhhdmUg YmVlbiBhc2tlZCB0d2ljZSAoZm9yIGluZGVwZW5kZW50IGRyYWZ0cykgd2hhdCB0aGVzZSBkcmFm dHMgc2hvdWxkIHNheSBhYm91dCB0aGVpciB1c2FnZSBvZiBVbmljb2RlLiAgSXQgdHVybnMgb3V0 LCB3ZSBoYXZlIGFuIFJGQyB0aGF0IGlzIGFsbW9zdCwgYnV0IG5vdCBlbnRpcmVseSB1bmxpa2Ug d2hhdCBpcyBuZWVkZWQgdG8gcmVmZXJlbmNlIGZvciBhIG5ldyBwcm90b2NvbCB0aGF0IHVzZXMg dGV4dDogUkZDIDUxOTguDQpJIGhhdmUgdHJpZWQgdG8gYnVpbGQgb24gdGhhdCBpbiB0aGUgdmVy eSBzaG9ydCBkcmFmdDoNCg0KaHR0cHM6Ly90b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sL2RyYWZ0LWJvcm1h bm4tZGlzcGF0Y2gtbW9kZXJuLW5ldHdvcmstdW5pY29kZQ0KDQpJIHdvdWxkIGV4cGVjdCB0aGF0 IHN1Y2ggYSBzcGVjaWZpY2F0aW9uLCBvbmNlIGNvbXBsZXRlZCwgd291bGQgYmUgYSB1c2VmdWwg cG9pbnQgb2YgcmVmZXJlbmNlIGZvciBhbnkgbmV3IHByb3RvY29scyB0aGF0IG5lZWQgdG8gdXNl IHRleHQgd2l0aG91dCBhbnkgc3BlY2lmaWMgcmVxdWlyZW1lbnRzIGltcG9zZWQgYnkgdGhlaXIg YXBwbGljYXRpb25zLg0KKFByb3RvY29scyB0aGF0IGFscmVhZHkgaGF2ZSBiZWVuIGFyb3VuZCBw cm9iYWJseSBiZW5lZml0IGxlc3MsIGJlY2F1c2UgdGhlcmUgYWx3YXlzIGFyZSBsZWdhY3kgY29u c2lkZXJhdGlvbnMuKQ0KDQpJJ20gbm90IHlldCBhc2tpbmcgZm9yIGRpc3BhdGNoaW5nIHRoaXMg ZG9jdW1lbnQ7IHJpZ2h0IG5vdyBJIHdvdWxkIGp1c3QgbGlrZSB0byByZWNlaXZlIGZlZWRiYWNr IGZyb20gdGhpcyBlc3RlZW1lZCBjb21tdW5pdHkgdG8gZnVydGhlciBpbXByb3ZlIHRoZSBkb2N1 bWVudC4NCg0KR3LDvMOfZSwgQ2Fyc3Rlbg0KDQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KYXJ0IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KYXJ0QGlldGYub3JnDQpodHRw czovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2FydA0K From nobody Sun Jul 7 19:29:19 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BCC21200FF for ; 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Sun, 07 Jul 2019 19:29:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Tim Bray Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2019 19:29:03 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Manger, James" Cc: Carsten Bormann , "art@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d4c014058d2235c5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Modern Network Unicode X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2019 02:29:18 -0000 --000000000000d4c014058d2235c5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree with James. This is a good and worthwhile idea, but let's be developer-friendly and just write the rules in the document. In particular, starting out by saying =E2=80=9CYou can=E2=80=99t use U+000A=E2=80=9D and t= hen devoting much following verbiage to saying =E2=80=9Cwell, actually you can, with the foll= owing considerations=E2=80=9D feels particularly awkward. On Sun, Jul 7, 2019 at 7:22 PM Manger, James < James.H.Manger@team.telstra.com> wrote: > > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bormann-dispatch-modern-network-unicode > > Would be nicer if it wasn't written as a diff from RFC5198 (Network > Unicode). That is, if you could get all the rules directly from this doc. > For instance, I assume Clean Modern Network Unicode must/should be NFC. > Keep the RFC5198 comparisons for an informative annex. > > ABNF for uchar doesn't exclude U+2028 and U+2029. > > -- > James Manger > > -----Original Message----- > From: art On Behalf Of Carsten Bormann > Sent: Monday, 8 July 2019 6:15 AM > To: art@ietf.org > Subject: [art] Modern Network Unicode > > This week, I have been asked twice (for independent drafts) what these > drafts should say about their usage of Unicode. It turns out, we have an > RFC that is almost, but not entirely unlike what is needed to reference f= or > a new protocol that uses text: RFC 5198. > I have tried to build on that in the very short draft: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bormann-dispatch-modern-network-unicode > > I would expect that such a specification, once completed, would be a > useful point of reference for any new protocols that need to use text > without any specific requirements imposed by their applications. > (Protocols that already have been around probably benefit less, because > there always are legacy considerations.) > > I'm not yet asking for dispatching this document; right now I would just > like to receive feedback from this esteemed community to further improve > the document. > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > > _______________________________________________ > art mailing list > art@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art > _______________________________________________ > art mailing list > art@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art > --000000000000d4c014058d2235c5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I a= gree with James. This is a good and worthwhile idea, but let's be devel= oper-friendly and just write the rules in the document. In particular, star= ting out by saying =E2=80=9CYou can=E2=80=99t use U+000A=E2=80=9D and then = devoting much following verbiage to saying =E2=80=9Cwell, actually you can,= with the following considerations=E2=80=9D feels particularly awkward.
=

On Sun, Jul 7, 2019 at 7:22 PM Manger, James <James.H.Manger@team.telstra.com> wrot= e:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-= bormann-dispatch-modern-network-unicode

Would be nicer if it wasn't written as a diff from RFC5198 (Network Uni= code). That is, if you could get all the rules directly from this doc. For = instance, I assume Clean Modern Network Unicode must/should be NFC. Keep th= e RFC5198 comparisons for an informative annex.

ABNF for uchar doesn't exclude U+2028 and U+2029.

--
James Manger

-----Original Message-----
From: art <art= -bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Carsten Bormann
Sent: Monday, 8 July 2019 6:15 AM
To: art@ietf.org
Subject: [art] Modern Network Unicode

This week, I have been asked twice (for independent drafts) what these draf= ts should say about their usage of Unicode.=C2=A0 It turns out, we have an = RFC that is almost, but not entirely unlike what is needed to reference for= a new protocol that uses text: RFC 5198.
I have tried to build on that in the very short draft:

https://tools.ietf.org/html= /draft-bormann-dispatch-modern-network-unicode

I would expect that such a specification, once completed, would be a useful= point of reference for any new protocols that need to use text without any= specific requirements imposed by their applications.
(Protocols that already have been around probably benefit less, because the= re always are legacy considerations.)

I'm not yet asking for dispatching this document; right now I would jus= t like to receive feedback from this esteemed community to further improve = the document.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

_______________________________________________
art mailing list
art@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art
_______________________________________________
art mailing list
art@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art
--000000000000d4c014058d2235c5-- From nobody Sun Jul 7 19:31:28 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 161CD1200F1 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2019 19:31:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=QthqlXhl; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=V0jS+cHF Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xYt4OnzBSsvW for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2019 19:31:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 798441200D8 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2019 19:31:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9138F21A7B for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2019 22:31:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap2 ([10.202.2.52]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 07 Jul 2019 22:31:22 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm2; bh=2SBk/ BA8gnz4nQbNQYmCDdr86A4uthyS75QmqyiiHBw=; b=QthqlXhltCh7ArzdqmtWU S42WNNT2tMMoo1Is3FmZWIHHwOTcK5JnZJG5C+NAaAzwm61vKQ1DcqhcgO8U53nx h1qnTrVq84NKBed6YDq0R6yl+jXkJcMtUogOQiFStWC+lO+URPU3yRtenkS2aYQs swSKeE+V3dT7TEeqEDSWJg0Vp3XRdpEfu+Lc/Kor0luAd3XNnGWtd8vHfu8UnHOk ABEZ1oKRNafDzVntInI2TC77XbfVS5ZcbFlgiDnh/jtz1cZGQDxWP7iDUUOGgcpa OPCxcPh1YQpGtpbtEEtbQDSj1DoiSt9M9m4gmL52Z78z/3fjeHmDAgMNL78iSqWB Q== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=2SBk/BA8gnz4nQbNQYmCDdr86A4uthyS75QmqyiiH Bw=; b=V0jS+cHFc8kYKGOnipSk6rcGZi1pI88TVke5kLXQWNFrORZwF7Wa2C4U+ q8pHDVeoGx9t5FYrL3flC3AJrzN1Qa9+zYxDt5TW1wfsiJbXXTmQWEzkpJve9Y1i cv27RjeKCOJOYBknsTBi3tM+FmGvAyBwUb4sXHPgS+fJwCKrmRsj+QhgcNZy+jTH K9RqpQ+mel54+Fbl1nPEPZyvylsMoAIfBY+6+zk+JaDTZamryxwB+/UQtRbJBjVG UC6uxHnWFLpDwGlXdHtE9WmP4JYciXhNHI5LaT7OlVqZ2wrIIoVrtpvfleS/fjCt 2rzMG4FRL6+7bZwNd45BnVpZpG/Fg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduvddrfeelgdehjecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgfgsehtqh ertderreejnecuhfhrohhmpedfofgrrhhtihhnucfvhhhomhhsohhnfdcuoehmtheslhho figvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtqeenucffohhmrghinhepihgvthhfrdhorhhgnecurfgrrh grmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtnecuvehluhhs thgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 37F7DE0555; Sun, 7 Jul 2019 22:31:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.6-731-g19d3b16-fmstable-20190627v1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <522318dc-b35f-40b0-aac3-814b793ca43b@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2019 12:31:22 +1000 From: "Martin Thomson" To: art@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Modern Network Unicode X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2019 02:31:25 -0000 I like Section 5. I was going to send a similar note to the authors of = the Robots Exclusion Protocol, but now I can just say "What Carsten said= ". I agree with the others about the standalone document thing. On Mon, Jul 8, 2019, at 06:15, Carsten Bormann wrote: > This week, I have been asked twice (for independent drafts) what these= > drafts should say about their usage of Unicode. It turns out, we have= > an RFC that is almost, but not entirely unlike what is needed to > reference for a new protocol that uses text: RFC 5198. > I have tried to build on that in the very short draft: >=20 > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bormann-dispatch-modern-network-unic= ode >=20 > I would expect that such a specification, once completed, would be a > useful point of reference for any new protocols that need to use text > without any specific requirements imposed by their applications. > (Protocols that already have been around probably benefit less, > because there always are legacy considerations.) >=20 > I'm not yet asking for dispatching this document; right now I would > just like to receive feedback from this esteemed community to further > improve the document. >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 > _______________________________________________ > art mailing list > art@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art > From nobody Sun Jul 7 19:58:21 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 788431200F3 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2019 19:58:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=YPCHPBtq; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=C0Z+2e64 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mdtcjChbO32a for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2019 19:58:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 30ED21200D8 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2019 19:58:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D7AA21B24 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2019 22:58:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap2 ([10.202.2.52]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 07 Jul 2019 22:58:16 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type; s=fm2; bh=EJV0BlDLGxkt+zaGaFzxzVaIShWaiAg nrgRg4ImwCZI=; b=YPCHPBtq83dXxFQkj57EaRnmrAfApF+ER2FED8Z1IatTTgh DbFMWwTaKTeRH+rtcSRfuUkerqPtLoTwma6ZA9ZWHe0NhnCj+QycrmdYK6JymYZb OWyMkUIiVZ/Ik5+N6dyLvWoUtCZib989xxSAS9oPXFGRb2fEJyLatHh6yBqsDHIC Ty7o/lgZYXVA6uNElvXweoXYe/RD9BpXXT85l/vW/6nZ+9ZFdGkn4ap8RobY3zti 6ZyZQRDnNIPcD9l7WGBjt1KnK0n14ZR2+C4fHzgJgrOcnNvGTmm2GQ3BkGWnsphS TIq7jx0jLMvO+TA4+B7k8rzMU//hy8UHZhchGww== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=EJV0Bl DLGxkt+zaGaFzxzVaIShWaiAgnrgRg4ImwCZI=; b=C0Z+2e64NontGrWGN7Q1pR xWEatZPBfnFDOxqtGFsQ8PLq28hQn3oX6lBzG5r3qngvjIfkl4pxh7BDg9mp77RB kWY919hRx5xFt8tBCq5KTxerUwY9gVTW5o5uVOsOcJsS9iLGImf50P1Bsn3sWf7m DBOO4QpgBLMYGexonJrvw5Q6gzjI+7Bb+kHUNTJRhQLH6opjNJBNijdYl7x1qvuv Zrt1KPct0xlnY/EpVUhDdNxsSG05WwbSEOEE4QaiILsSAmym4+QaA7x71fXuG2e6 IaUNiKGT/QTgiDG1+iEU87zact0bR6zdQuPY6J3hGT6Jwo/FgnkKOotGF3oZp+LQ == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduvddrfeelgdeivdcutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesthdtre dtreertdenucfhrhhomhepfdforghrthhinhcuvfhhohhmshhonhdfuceomhhtsehlohif vghnthhrohhphidrnhgvtheqnecuffhomhgrihhnpehivghtfhdrohhrghenucfrrghrrg hmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvthenucevlhhushht vghrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id A8A29E0592; Sun, 7 Jul 2019 22:58:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.6-731-g19d3b16-fmstable-20190627v1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <765f5ca4-6c69-4fbf-95b8-ca2161f2ae39@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2019 12:58:10 +1000 From: "Martin Thomson" To: art@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Draft submission: Robots Exclusion Protocol X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2019 02:58:20 -0000 Hi Gary, Thanks for taking the time to do this. It's not glamorous work by any means, but it's worth writing down this stuff. Some minor comments here on the draft, which overall looks like it is worth doing. Section 2 could benefit from a brief description of what the protocol is and how it is used. That is, there is a text file that describes what a robot is discouraged from accessing. That file comprises multiple groups, with each group applying to one or more robots (as identified by the User-Agent value it advertises), or all robots (*). Please be doubly, extra-specific about where case-sensitivity applies. These textual formats are really bad for case sensitivity issues, particularly where some parts ("allow") are insensitive and other parts (URLs) are sensitive. There's probably security considerations here for servers that serve case insensitive resources, because this format might fail to properly exclude paths in that case. ; parser implementors: add additional lines you need (for ; example Sitemaps), and be lenient when reading lines that don't ; conform. Apply Postel's law. Sorry, but this is a red flag to me. When someone says that, I interpret this as "sorry, but we were too lazy to write a proper spec here". I know that's not the intent, and the draft already basically says what you need it to say. Section 2.3.1.5. is most of the way there, though a SHOULD leaves too much wiggle room to be an effective specification. I would suggest saying explicitly: Lines that a parser does not understand MUST be ignored. And maybe "For example, the "sitemap" rule applies. That probably also comes with some better definition of lines (in prose, maybe with reference to the EOL rule; btw, check that rule, I think it's a run-on) and how groups are defined. The latter is, as far as I can see, a problem with this format. An important question you then need to consider is whether this is one group or two: User-Agent : foo garbage: garbage User-Agent: bar disallow: /off-limits That is, when garbage is ignored, does that mean that "foo" would be required to respect the disallow rule? Section 5 of https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bormann-dispatch-modern-network-unicode includes advice on construction of ABNF you might want to read. That doesn't need to be an RFC for you to follow its advice. When talking about the /robots.txt resource, it might pay to cite RFC 7320/BCP 190 and explain why this document doesn't follow the advice there. On Mon, Jul 8, 2019, at 06:45, Gary Illyes wrote: > Hi ART, > > As you may have seen, a group has gotten together with Martijn Koster > to create an internet-draft which restates the Robots Exclusion > Protocol using updated ABNF and prescriptions. The current draft is > (draft-koster-rep). If you get a chance, we'd appreciate your > confirming that it matches your understanding of current practice and > that the specification is clear even for edge cases. You can send mail > to me to forward on to the author team or address it to the emails > listed in the draft. > > Thanks for your help, > Gary Illyes > Google Switzerland > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-koster-rep/ > _______________________________________________ > art mailing list > art@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art > From nobody Mon Jul 8 07:46:57 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 227D51201F3; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 07:46:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TisQve9E-_e1; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 07:46:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp117.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (smtp117.iad3a.emailsrvr.com [173.203.187.117]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 394801201F0; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 07:46:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Auth-ID: fluffy@iii.ca Received: by smtp15.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (Authenticated sender: fluffy-AT-iii.ca) with ESMTPSA id E82DD5020; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 10:46:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender-Id: fluffy@iii.ca Received: from [10.1.3.91] (S0106004268479ae3.cg.shawcable.net [70.77.44.153]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:587 (trex/5.7.12); Mon, 08 Jul 2019 10:46:37 -0400 From: Cullen Jennings Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 08:46:35 -0600 Message-Id: To: art@ietf.org, dispatch-chairs@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: [art] Request for time for draft-rosenbergjennings-dispatch-ripp in ART area meeting X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2019 14:46:56 -0000 Hi=20 I=E2=80=99d like to request some time to talk about=20 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rosenbergjennings-dispatch-ripp/ in the ART area meeting. This draft outlines an alternative for to = SIP/SDP/RTP for audio trunking between PSTN trunking providers and cloud = applications that use PSTN trunking.=20 Thanks, Cullen=20 From nobody Mon Jul 8 13:21:25 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D24E11202EA for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 13:21:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n1FSl3C4_sYr for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 13:21:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 971C512006A for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 13:21:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from client-0220.vpn.uni-bremen.de (client-0220.vpn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.107.220]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 45jH063QBzzyY5; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 22:21:10 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 22:21:10 +0200 Cc: "art@ietf.org" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 584310068.589476-039f9fce3f2958f810b224951cfe9537 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <790BA1EF-7C0C-4E14-8BB2-4AD421ACAFB5@tzi.org> References: To: "Manger, James" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] =?utf-8?q?Modern_Network_Unicode_=E2=80=94_=E2=80=9302_sub?= =?utf-8?q?mitted?= X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2019 20:21:24 -0000 Hi James, Tim, Martin, thank you for the quick feedback! As suggested, I have started turning = this into a standalone document (of course, still requiring RFC 3629, = the UTF-8 definition): Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bormann-dispatch-modern-network-uni= code/ Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bormann-dispatch-modern-network-unicode-= 02 Diff: = https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-bormann-dispatch-modern-networ= k-unicode-02 I hope I haven=E2=80=99t missed anything important from RFC 5198 that I = wanted to keep. =20 Maybe time to involve the authors of that RFC=E2=80=A6 Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > On Jul 8, 2019, at 04:18, Manger, James = wrote: >=20 > Would be nicer if it wasn't written as a diff from RFC5198 (Network = Unicode). That is, if you could get all the rules directly from this = doc. For instance, I assume Clean Modern Network Unicode must/should be = NFC. Keep the RFC5198 comparisons for an informative annex. From nobody Mon Jul 8 17:45:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AB0B12023F for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 17:45:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=team.telstra.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PADQNVgk1jYJ for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 17:45:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ipxbvo.tcif.telstra.com.au (ipxbvo.tcif.telstra.com.au [203.35.135.204]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 08FD6120077 for ; 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([2601:192:4e00:596:45a9:5713:df8b:1659]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r205sm6975223qke.115.2019.07.08.18.14.42 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 08 Jul 2019 18:14:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5d23ea83.1c69fb81.23b36.b4fb@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Carsten Bormann , "Manger, James" Cc: "art@ietf.org" From: Peter Occil Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 21:14:44 -0400 Importance: normal X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <790BA1EF-7C0C-4E14-8BB2-4AD421ACAFB5@tzi.org> References: <790BA1EF-7C0C-4E14-8BB2-4AD421ACAFB5@tzi.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_44BB3A4F-303F-415E-9965-85E652D1A5DE_" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] =?utf-8?q?Modern_Network_Unicode_=E2=80=94_=E2=80=9302_sub?= =?utf-8?q?mitted?= X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 01:14:47 -0000 --_44BB3A4F-303F-415E-9965-85E652D1A5DE_ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Saying U+FFFE and U+FFFF (or any other noncharacters) =E2=80=9CMUST NOT be = used=E2=80=9D merely =E2=80=9Cas per the Unicode specification=E2=80=9D oug= ht to be guided by looking at what the intent of Unicode actually is. See corrigendum 9 of the Unicode Standard for that intent: http://www.unico= de.org/versions/corrigendum9.html =E2=80=9CNoncharacters in the Unicode Standard are intended for internal us= e and have no standard interpretation when exchanged outside the context of= internal use. However, they are not illegal in interchange nor do they cau= se ill-formed Unicode text. This has always been the intent of the standard= , as expressed by the Unicode Technical Committee.=E2=80=9D Since noncharacters have no standard meaning outside of internal use, howev= er, they may be even more problematic than the Unicode paragraph and line s= eparators (which do have standard meaning but are forbidden in the draft fo= r Modern Network Unicode). Many kinds of protocol strings, such as URIs, I= RIs, and strings complying with the PRECIS framework, do not allow nonchara= cter code points, while other kinds of UTF-8 text, such as JSON, do allow n= oncharacters. XML allows all noncharacters except for U+FFFE and U+FFFF. --Peter From: Carsten Bormann Sent: Monday, July 8, 2019 4:24 PM To: Manger, James Cc: art@ietf.org Subject: Re: [art]Modern Network Unicode =E2=80=94 =E2=80=9302 submitted Hi James, Tim, Martin, thank you for the quick feedback! As suggested, I have started turning thi= s into a standalone document (of course, still requiring RFC 3629, the UTF-= 8 definition): Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bormann-dispatch-mod= ern-network-unicode/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bormann-dispatch-modern-n= etwork-unicode-02 Diff: https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-bormann-dispatc= h-modern-network-unicode-02 I hope I haven=E2=80=99t missed anything important from RFC 5198 that I wan= ted to keep. =20 Maybe time to involve the authors of that RFC=E2=80=A6 Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > On Jul 8, 2019, at 04:18, Manger, James = wrote: >=20 > Would be nicer if it wasn't written as a diff from RFC5198 (Network Unico= de). That is, if you could get all the rules directly from this doc. For in= stance, I assume Clean Modern Network Unicode must/should be NFC. Keep the = RFC5198 comparisons for an informative annex. _______________________________________________ art mailing list art@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art --_44BB3A4F-303F-415E-9965-85E652D1A5DE_ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"

Saying U+FFFE and U+FFFF (or any oth= er noncharacters) =E2=80=9CMUST NOT be used=E2=80=9D merely =E2=80=9Cas per= the Unicode specification=E2=80=9D ought to be guided by looking at what t= he intent of Unicode actually is.

 =

See corrigendum 9 of the Unicode Standard for that= intent: http= ://www.unicode.org/versions/corrigendum9.html

<= o:p> 

=E2=80=9CNoncharacters in the Unic= ode Standard are intended for internal use and have no standard interpretat= ion when exchanged outside the context of internal use. However, they are n= ot illegal in interchange nor do they cause ill-formed Unicode text. This h= as always been the intent of the standard, as expressed by the Unicode Tech= nical Committee.=E2=80=9D

 

Since noncharacters have no standard meaning ou= tside of internal use, however, they may be even more problematic than the = Unicode paragraph and line separators (which do have standard meaning but a= re forbidden in the draft for Modern Network Unicode).=C2=A0 Many kinds of = protocol strings, such as URIs, IRIs, and strings complying with the PRECIS= framework, do not allow noncharacter code points, while other kinds of UTF= -8 text, such as JSON, do allow noncharacters. =C2=A0XML allows all nonchar= acters except for U+FFFE and U+FFFF.

 

--Peter

 

From: Carsten= Bormann
Sent: Monday, July 8, 2019 4:24 PM
To: Manger, James
Cc:= art@ietf.org
Subject: Re= : [art]Modern Network Unicode =E2=80=94 =E2=80=9302 submitted

 

Hi James, Tim, M= artin,

 

th= ank you for the quick feedback!=C2=A0 As suggested, I have started turning = this into a standalone document (of course, still requiring RFC 3629, the U= TF-8 definition):

 

Status:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 https://da= tatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bormann-dispatch-modern-network-unicode/

Htmlized:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 https://to= ols.ietf.org/html/draft-bormann-dispatch-modern-network-unicode-02

Diff:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-bormann-dispatch-modern-= network-unicode-02

 

I hope I haven=E2=80=99t missed anything important from RFC 5198 = that I wanted to keep.=C2=A0

Maybe time to involve= the authors of that RFC=E2=80=A6

 =

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

<= o:p> 

 

> On Jul 8, 2019, at 04:18, Manger, James <James.H.Manger@tea= m.telstra.com> wrote:

>

> Would be nicer if it wasn't written as a diff from RFC5198 (Networ= k Unicode). That is, if you could get all the rules directly from this doc.= For instance, I assume Clean Modern Network Unicode must/should be NFC. Ke= ep the RFC5198 comparisons for an informative annex.

 

_______________________________= ________________

art mailing list

art@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/li= stinfo/art

 

= --_44BB3A4F-303F-415E-9965-85E652D1A5DE_-- From nobody Mon Jul 8 20:17:48 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 293E91200FD for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 20:17:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PaVwzXuwEW-1 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 20:17:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x42e.google.com (mail-pf1-x42e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E29EC1200EF for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 20:17:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x42e.google.com with SMTP id g2so3773791pfq.0 for ; Mon, 08 Jul 2019 20:17:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=0bdmqAgZs2+qE2fDZ/g5No5aVhVsoTW3L6R1t/1b1eQ=; b=msio975q3DYWafEup2iS/rj9xdUqDsCghyA3Z2ihSD0Z+2xIAL4gLZtQ2eOgWm+7zi notzZ/SUs77ojyqBiRZDLlcmzqwtpea6peVsfdSIXPVEkH2aTGsPaa61G2UrTxIa8fgi ZuYkmifTJi2cZzFEexKd4CI/MTgF2OLCJZ/+dNVscK85orMHBE/kR+XzHAt4Jy5iQvJ8 g25yVxl/nNfjZ6Kb83Hab/Yzgw8paHPtHtMdcNZSkM9Xxip4StwhdR5Kw0HTGQ5Z2qMd mCSofHtRtMpg1yu6npRNA/7SoSvkIqPxqRrFma0dOnJFTuNBQV7j56uUi/KB/zAlCa2D PTWw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=0bdmqAgZs2+qE2fDZ/g5No5aVhVsoTW3L6R1t/1b1eQ=; b=cQ9Kg5Ihg5l9C+BCa4mGaulEEGoPG13L8f8FK8gtXGI+Kfk+09ZvV0m4HIP4waCaym VkUqPsle+kV/+/Hf9Jyw3H/F5tLbOts/3znPEvluCPcOjeCxW+N7h123RnbwrTWcTLcO big5lfCNtP1z7GtXxaETHMs9TsTQNkOYyB8ZuhONraNUyUcjZESYmgPM1EwCTAMfsDo8 Hi+MWqVS9TJvl+LHPGxPiHiu0S4jCSO6v8YsHd6oDfza7IzVhPFxZdoQqrhe9fkRiULG 76k8N3wHPemNhJRYlXbjLjGRFeSs2cjUMbVfR7vlFQ/iWrMp/6uGHSpfOO2pDgfe/ufB +/oQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAW3NBRXmBDOkyGknWU7U67jIrDZHMi/ioBSRWjn/BKvLoaMk+z9 kjbJuCXGStEJt4Zn55OuCj0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqytfZJuKZjQ6OmZOPn0Geg5ZiP3ShT2VnKzMuXQF+YCk63AcB6T92zv1M2W7CdO+J9ocxB7hw== X-Received: by 2002:a63:1908:: with SMTP id z8mr20155118pgl.433.1562642262103; Mon, 08 Jul 2019 20:17:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.54.205.172] ([65.121.125.202]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a10sm11441356pfc.162.2019.07.08.20.17.40 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 08 Jul 2019 20:17:40 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-955623CA-41B4-4B55-BBB5-5D1F7557B484 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Larry Masinter X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16F203) In-Reply-To: <5d23ea83.1c69fb81.23b36.b4fb@mx.google.com> Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 21:17:39 -0600 Cc: Carsten Bormann , "Manger, James" , "art@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: <790BA1EF-7C0C-4E14-8BB2-4AD421ACAFB5@tzi.org> <5d23ea83.1c69fb81.23b36.b4fb@mx.google.com> To: Peter Occil Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] =?utf-8?q?Modern_Network_Unicode_=E2=80=94_=E2=80=9302_sub?= =?utf-8?q?mitted?= X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 03:17:46 -0000 --Apple-Mail-955623CA-41B4-4B55-BBB5-5D1F7557B484 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am confused how this could be to stand-alone without mentioning the https:= //developers.google.com/search/reference/robots_meta_tag robots html meta ta= g??? Which seems to me a better design -- LarryMasinter.net > On Jul 8, 2019, at 7:14 PM, Peter Occil wrote: >=20 > Saying U+FFFE and U+FFFF (or any other noncharacters) =E2=80=9CMUST NOT be= used=E2=80=9D merely =E2=80=9Cas per the Unicode specification=E2=80=9D oug= ht to be guided by looking at what the intent of Unicode actually is. > =20 > See corrigendum 9 of the Unicode Standard for that intent: http://www.unic= ode.org/versions/corrigendum9.html > =20 > =E2=80=9CNoncharacters in the Unicode Standard are intended for internal u= se and have no standard interpretation when exchanged outside the context of= internal use. However, they are not illegal in interchange nor do they caus= e ill-formed Unicode text. This has always been the intent of the standard, a= s expressed by the Unicode Technical Committee.=E2=80=9D > =20 > Since noncharacters have no standard meaning outside of internal use, howe= ver, they may be even more problematic than the Unicode paragraph and line s= eparators (which do have standard meaning but are forbidden in the draft for= Modern Network Unicode). Many kinds of protocol strings, such as URIs, IRI= s, and strings complying with the PRECIS framework, do not allow noncharacte= r code points, while other kinds of UTF-8 text, such as JSON, do allow nonch= aracters. XML allows all noncharacters except for U+FFFE and U+FFFF. > =20 > --Peter > =20 > From: Carsten Bormann > Sent: Monday, July 8, 2019 4:24 PM > To: Manger, James > Cc: art@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [art]Modern Network Unicode =E2=80=94 =E2=80=9302 submitted > =20 > Hi James, Tim, Martin, > =20 > thank you for the quick feedback! As suggested, I have started turning th= is into a standalone document (of course, still requiring RFC 3629, the UTF-= 8 definition): > =20 > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bormann-dispatch-mo= dern-network-unicode/ > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bormann-dispatch-modern-= network-unicode-02 > Diff: https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-bormann-dispat= ch-modern-network-unicode-02 > =20 > I hope I haven=E2=80=99t missed anything important from RFC 5198 that I wa= nted to keep.=20 > Maybe time to involve the authors of that RFC=E2=80=A6 > =20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > =20 > =20 > > On Jul 8, 2019, at 04:18, Manger, James wrote: > > > > Would be nicer if it wasn't written as a diff from RFC5198 (Network Unic= ode). That is, if you could get all the rules directly from this doc. For in= stance, I assume Clean Modern Network Unicode must/should be NFC. Keep the R= FC5198 comparisons for an informative annex. > =20 > _______________________________________________ > art mailing list > art@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art > =20 > _______________________________________________ > art mailing list > art@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art --Apple-Mail-955623CA-41B4-4B55-BBB5-5D1F7557B484 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am confused how this could be to stand-al= one without mentioning the https://developers.google.com/search/referenc= e/robots_meta_tag robots html meta tag??? Which seems to me a bette= r design
On Jul 8, 2019, at 7:14 PM, Peter Occil <poccil14@gmail.com> wrote:

Saying U+FFFE a= nd U+FFFF (or any other noncharacters) =E2=80=9CMUST NOT be used=E2=80=9D me= rely =E2=80=9Cas per the Unicode specification=E2=80=9D ought to be guided b= y looking at what the intent of Unicode actually is.

 

See corrigendum 9 of the Unic= ode Standard for that intent: http://www.unicode.org/versions/corrigendum9.html

 

=E2=80=9CNonc= haracters in the Unicode Standard are intended for internal use and have no s= tandard interpretation when exchanged outside the context of internal use. H= owever, they are not illegal in interchange nor do they cause ill-formed Uni= code text. This has always been the intent of the standard, as expressed by t= he Unicode Technical Committee.=E2=80=9D

 

Since noncharacters have no st= andard meaning outside of internal use, however, they may be even more probl= ematic than the Unicode paragraph and line separators (which do have standar= d meaning but are forbidden in the draft for Modern Network Unicode).  M= any kinds of protocol strings, such as URIs, IRIs, and strings complying wit= h the PRECIS framework, do not allow noncharacter code points, while other k= inds of UTF-8 text, such as JSON, do allow noncharacters.  XML allows a= ll noncharacters except for U+FFFE and U+FFFF.

 

--Peter

<= o:p> 

From: Carsten Bormann
Sent: Monday, July 8, 2019 4:24 PM
To: Manger, James
Cc: art@ietf.org
Subje= ct: Re: [art]Modern Network Unicode =E2=80=94 =E2=80=9302 submitted

<= /div>

 

Hi J= ames, Tim, Martin,

 

thank you for the quick feedback!  As suggested, I have sta= rted turning this into a standalone document (of course, still requiring RFC= 3629, the UTF-8 definition):

 

Status:       &nb= sp; https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bormann-dispatch-= modern-network-unicode/

Htmlized:  &= nbsp;    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-borma= nn-dispatch-modern-network-unicode-02

Diff:&nb= sp;          https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-bormann-dispatch-modern-net= work-unicode-02

 

I hope I haven=E2=80=99t missed anything important from RFC 5198= that I wanted to keep. 

Maybe time to invol= ve the authors of that RFC=E2=80=A6

 

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

 

 

> On Jul 8, 2019, at 04:18, Manger, James <James.H.Manger@team.telstra.com= > wrote:

>

> W= ould be nicer if it wasn't written as a diff from RFC5198 (Network Unicode).= That is, if you could get all the rules directly from this doc. For instanc= e, I assume Clean Modern Network Unicode must/should be NFC. Keep the RFC519= 8 comparisons for an informative annex.

 = ;

__________________________________________= _____

art mailing list

<= a href=3D"mailto:art@ietf.org">art@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mai= lman/listinfo/art

 

<= /div>
_________= ______________________________________
art mailing list
art@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/art
= --Apple-Mail-955623CA-41B4-4B55-BBB5-5D1F7557B484-- From nobody Tue Jul 9 01:24:46 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D185C120380 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 01:24:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.126 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.126 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2=0.874, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, GB_PHARMACY=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=hotmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nWc0LpQ4K85g for ; 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ________________________________ From: pradeep xplorer Sent: Tuesday, July 9, 2019 11:39 AM To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac= .in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1 Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrublof= f.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov= ; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; larrypage@google.com; larry.e= llison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@yogaworks.com; info@agamayo= ga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; = sumbody@sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.go= v; alerts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opporti= llo@globeacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtr= a.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeopathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.co= m; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyoz.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@j= phma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora= @seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; inf= o@homeopathy-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; em= imila@hotmail.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeop= atia.roman@wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-= asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; info@a-r-h.org; info= @th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com; beyoutifu= llivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srszsi@gmail.com; anrc= @zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare= @citi.com; info@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jop= anda@treasurer.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@= sbi.co.in; lorrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov= ; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.in; president@whitehouse= .gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@yogaworks.com; johnjohna= ssociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Guestservices@himalayaninsti= tute.org; spplkd.pol@kerala.gov.in; iucg@ietf.org Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing I am writing from mall in palakkad that has a jobys mall that I have used b= efore. I entered old pulappatta house and sRidhar and Sarala again objected= to me giving her bottle water. I am sensing organised activity knowing whe= re I am and disturbing me. When I exited bus in akathethara senthil the au= to driver was in the busstop and messaged someone. Prabhakara varmas daught= er meena walked past. I entered and she requested me to give water I gave f= rom the red pet bottle I tested it too it was chukku vellam and i did not f= eel good. When I suggested I buy bottle water sRidhar threatened me to thro= w away all bottles I bring. SRidhar again verbally attacked me. I have to b= e able to take her for an ayurveda vasti if possible. Because of sRidhar an= d balan my mother is down in bed. She was underfed and food poisoned in sh= ylajas place and she fell down and hurt her head and before her knees. I am= now relieved that i have not seen balan shylaja rohini durga and I am worr= ied the criminals have organised hareRama harekrishna in chepilamuri that I= was forced to see when I returned by bus. Yesterday the FBI fought with me= obviously some criminals following my tweets are calling them. The law e= nforcers are negligent and prevented me having any income last 17 years and= still allowing the organisation to continue criminal ways. I could not off= er a few sips of appy fizz juice as soon as I opened it my mother protested= and informed me sRidhar and Sarala would Fight if she drinks it. I again state this is serious crime using large value of money taken from s= unw market cap and using my websites as vehicles for its investment 65 bill= ion us dollars in 2007. They are calling me wealthy and trying to kill me. I had to beg in Delhi fo= r food money and sleep in mountains of palakkad in 2015. There's no public = record of use of my websites it's theft by many authorities and who are now= trying to kill me and my mother. I have a right to look after my mother and break up with my mother. It's s= uspect economic activity in temples of akathethara esp durga temple chepila= muri I see many houses worth above 50000000rs but me and my mother are home= less with expired address in identity documents Please help enforce my separation from cousins and that I can take care of = my old mother and end of cybercrime using my websites Pradeep kumar xplorer ________________________________ From: pradeep xplorer Sent: Monday, July 8, 2019 11:46:59 PM To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac= .in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1 Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrublof= f.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov= ; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; larrypage@google.com; larry.e= llison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@yogaworks.com; info@agamayo= ga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; = sumbody@sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.go= v; alerts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opporti= llo@globeacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtr= a.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeopathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.co= m; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyoz.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@j= phma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora= @seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; inf= o@homeopathy-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; em= imila@hotmail.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeop= atia.roman@wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-= asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; info@a-r-h.org; info= @th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com; beyoutifu= llivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srszsi@gmail.com; anrc= @zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare= @citi.com; info@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jop= anda@treasurer.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@= sbi.co.in; lorrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov= ; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.in; president@whitehouse= .gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@yogaworks.com; johnjohna= ssociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Guestservices@himalayaninsti= tute.org; spplkd.pol@kerala.gov.in; iucg@ietf.org Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing I could not relocate my mother to a double room. Arya vaidya pharmacy has= recommended vasti to her. I sense a danger to her as sRidhar again tried = to fight with me in evening. I am in the lodge that won't be available for = next three days. There has to be payment enforcement to me and not distabi= lity pension. I object to this exploitation continuing using my domains. P= lease ensure my mother is safe and sRidhar won't attack Me in morning. The = FBI has not enforced payment and someone victor guevara is not logical and = fought with me Pradeep kumar xplorer ________________________________ From: pradeep xplorer Sent: Monday, July 8, 2019 1:27:42 PM To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac= .in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1 Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrublof= f.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov= ; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; larrypage@google.com; larry.e= llison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@yogaworks.com; info@agamayo= ga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; = sumbody@sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.go= v; alerts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opporti= llo@globeacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtr= a.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeopathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.co= m; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyoz.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@j= phma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora= @seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; inf= o@homeopathy-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; em= imila@hotmail.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeop= atia.roman@wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-= asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; info@a-r-h.org; info= @th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com; beyoutifu= llivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srszsi@gmail.com; anrc= @zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare= @citi.com; info@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jop= anda@treasurer.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@= sbi.co.in; lorrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov= ; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.in; president@whitehouse= .gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@yogaworks.com; johnjohna= ssociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Guestservices@himalayaninsti= tute.org; spplkd.pol@kerala.gov.in; cihbngrpkd.pol@kerala.gov.in; iucg@ietf= .org Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing This is OLX Mobiles number.. I have a dispute with them. They did not fix m= y samsung J2 and extorted 1600rs from me when i am in danger zone with too = little cash. The android is not working.. Theres a small crack on display. = It had a blue covering when i picked it up. I removed it day before yesterd= ay and there was a crack. I managed to get 8000Rs from my mother. I helped = her use bedpan and could remove again ten grams of faeces.. Her anus is clo= gged. May be she would accept an enema from me tomorrow but at the same tim= e i am unhappy she is stuck in that place and the variabales for the crime = are too much. I am saying my money is expended by palakkad raj or some orga= nisation without any fear and they want me dead.. The man now in OLX mobiles opposite chennai mobiles in Post office junction= palakkad was very rude. This is the number displayed. OLX Mobiles +91.7756= 364676 VK shankaravarma has entered pulappatta house after i helped my mother use = bedpan. I dont like this prolonged. I have a temporary solution. Morning i ate idli= in Indraprastha but they poisoned me in coffee and i have heart congestion= . I have to get a 4G device to use my JIO sim. A shop has agreed to take it f= or 1000Rs and give something else for their price. The 4G J4 they are askin= g 4800 so i have to give 3800Rs thats too much. I said to take it for 3000R= s. I am poor now because of crime continuing. I am without woman or any lif= e and unable to rescue my mother from harmful custody by cousins Pradeep Kumar XPlorer +91.6238940417 ________________________________ From: pradeep xplorer Sent: Sunday, July 7, 2019 12:03 PM To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac= .in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1 Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrublof= f.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov= ; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; larrypage@google.com; larry.e= llison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@yogaworks.com; info@agamayo= ga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; = sumbody@sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.go= v; alerts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opporti= llo@globeacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtr= a.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeopathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.co= m; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyoz.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@j= phma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora= @seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; inf= o@homeopathy-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; em= imila@hotmail.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeop= atia.roman@wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-= asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; info@a-r-h.org; info= @th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com; beyoutifu= llivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srszsi@gmail.com; anrc= @zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare= @citi.com; info@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jop= anda@treasurer.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@= sbi.co.in; lorrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov= ; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.in; president@whitehouse= .gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@yogaworks.com; johnjohna= ssociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Guestservices@himalayaninsti= tute.org; spplkd.pol@kerala.gov.in; cihbngrpkd.pol@kerala.gov.in; iucg@ietf= .org Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing My android is not fixed has display problems or OS Problems did not respond= to touch and the parties that repaired it are not working today. I could g= ive only a sip of water to my mother in morning. I have only 550Rs and my m= other need to help me with atleast 8000Rs tomorrow. She has to shift with m= e so she does not lose money to the poor cousins and husbands like sridhar = and balan who are in it for for cybercrime and exploiting me as well. I hav= e expended for her in 90s and 2000s so this is informal arrangement until i= get a solution of end of cybercrime and restoration of life in California. Pradeep Kumar Xplorer ________________________________ From: pradeep xplorer Sent: Saturday, July 6, 2019 6:23 PM To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac= .in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1 Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrublof= f.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov= ; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; larrypage@google.com; larry.e= llison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@yogaworks.com; info@agamayo= ga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; = sumbody@sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.go= v; alerts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opporti= llo@globeacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtr= a.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeopathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.co= m; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyoz.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@j= phma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora= @seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; inf= o@homeopathy-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; em= imila@hotmail.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeop= atia.roman@wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-= asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; info@a-r-h.org; info= @th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com; beyoutifu= llivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srszsi@gmail.com; anrc= @zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare= @citi.com; info@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jop= anda@treasurer.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@= sbi.co.in; lorrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov= ; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.in; president@whitehouse= .gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@yogaworks.com; johnjohna= ssociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Guestservices@himalayaninsti= tute.org; spplkd.pol@kerala.gov.in; cihbngrpkd.pol@kerala.gov.in Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing I entered oldpulappatta house and when enquiring where is the icecream ball= i bought for my mother sridhar verbally attacked me and tried to provoke m= e into a fight. he says he would not allow me to give anything to her or lo= ok after her. I noticed he has extorted some cash to buy her a bedpan and t= o prevent me helping her use the chair stool. I was attacked by sridhar and two sons in Nov 2013 and hospitalised and har= med and i have complained to palakkad district police. I have now a room in= palakkad for 400rs where if they did not object i would have relocated her= . My mothers life is in danger and she has alerady been harmed and drugged = and underfed by sridhar and balan. These prevented me renting in mettupalay= am in end of 2017 and attacked and hospitalised and injured my yoga body. S= ridhar is a criminal medical representative and me and my mother are his vi= ctims. I am a Thai spa yoga class being and i was harmed four times after S= UN was sold to ORACLE. Theres an organisation employed using my websites expending money i should = have expended for my personal life in MountainView California in 2004. They have destroyed my immigration status in USA and preventing me getting = any income funds employment in India and attacked and harmed me. They prevented me from marrying another woman after i broke up with amy rai= nier starkey in April 2001 and used a dead sindhu issue to extort 800000Rs = from my citigold account in bangalore in Aug 2003. Again i suspect they did= not allow sindhu to enjoy it and extorted and build the house in chepilamu= ri. Balan and sridhar have partnered with an organisation exploiting me and slo= wly killing me and my mother. My mother would not have had knee surgery if = she was with me. They underfed her and she fell down and even after knee su= rgery they underfed her and made her fall and injure her head. Its as if ba= lan and sridhar has hurt her head with an axe. I could have discharged her = from sai hospital to a double room instead she is now inside old pulappatta house and they are getting some ca= sh and sometimes food poisoning her. I was prevented from breaking up with = her in 2004 when i should have been reemployed and married to someone else = like amy and i would have fathered children. This is an organised crime exp= loiting use of surname pulappatta and thats an old house that should have b= een dismantled decades ago. Whoever employed world wide using my websites a= re thieves and trying to kill my mother and me. I have no clue why CI of he= mambika nagar is not negotiating me separated from cousins and my mother un= der my care so i can solve my US situation and relocate back. I have only 7= 00Rs and my mother could be used to attack me when i would ask for 10000Rs = day after tomorrow. The informal agreement between me and my mother is she = helping me by 500Rs as i have expended money for her when sun employed and = treated her well in usa for a year and also paid her money. I again suspect sindhu was used to extort 800000Rs from my citigold account= to exploit me and my website publishing and not pay me my money to setttle= in bayarea. Then they created situation where sun was sold to oracle and h= ad me attacked and sindhu married to someone and kannan married rohini. I r= eported to udit chaithanya her life is in danger he ignored now my mother h= as a head wound so i suspect them as well. ANyway its a risk for me being in pulappatta house and my mother should be = with me and the cousins should not bother me. This has to be enforced by lo= cal law enforcement because sridhar is preventing me shifting with her. I = suspect if the 175000Rs she had in SBI was stolen or in an fixed deposit. Please help end this situation Pradeep Kumar Xplorer ________________________________ From: pradeep xplorer Sent: Friday, July 5, 2019 5:56 PM To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac= .in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1 Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrublof= f.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov= ; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; larrypage@google.com; larry.e= llison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@yogaworks.com; info@agamayo= ga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; = sumbody@sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.go= v; alerts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opporti= llo@globeacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtr= a.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeopathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.co= m; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyoz.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@j= phma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora= @seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; inf= o@homeopathy-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; em= imila@hotmail.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeop= atia.roman@wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-= asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; info@a-r-h.org; info= @th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com; beyoutifu= llivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srszsi@gmail.com; anrc= @zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare= @citi.com; info@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jop= anda@treasurer.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@= sbi.co.in; lorrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov= ; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.in; president@whitehouse= .gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@yogaworks.com; johnjohna= ssociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Guestservices@himalayaninsti= tute.org; Police@mountainview.gov Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing These are the events of the day I reported my situation and medical cruelty suffered by my mother to FBI, M= ountainView police, USDOJ, Executive office of immigration review and many = others in this list. Today morning while resting in ashirvad lodge i kept my mobile for charging= and it fell down and display was damaged. I dont know if it was trembled artificially. I we= nt to shop that i purchased it and they wanted 1800Rs. I had only 2200Rs. I went to pulappatta house. Ammini relative of mathrubhumi founder kp kesav= amenon was present After my mother ate lunch she signed 10000Rs for me. She was saying theres = only 3000Rs in it. She did not say who she asked to Create Fixed deposit. I went to malampuzha road SBI and they did not honor the cheque claiming si= gnature mismatch. I suspect who encashed the 100000rs from 275000rs account. They asked me to= get a letter signed by my mother that this is her current signature. I wen= t to the house and sridhar tried to fight with me. Thats a criminal not pun= ished by law enforcement and still used to attack me. Sridhar and two sons = have attacked me in nov 2013 and i reported to palakkad police and nothin= g has been done. So he still attacks me. After attacking me in nov 2013 hi = two sons got employed. I suspect Sridhar and sons must have attacked my mot= her as well. The two sons look well fed like fighters. Sridhar tried to att= ack me when exiting also and autodriver farooq saw it. I suspect sarala has= food poisoned her also. Her vital energy is less. Sridhar is a criminal th= at has harmed my mother using hospitals and harmed me also using allopathic= hospitals and getting away with it. Because of the Sridhar sarala shylaja = balan i am not able to heal my mother give her an enema or massage or heal = her by health food and i accuse them as being allowed to slowly kill my mot= her and they would kill me too. Sridhar threatened me that i should not sta= y anywhere and sleep there. Sridhar and the BJP RSS are criminals that has = prevented me marrying anyone using a sindhu issue and all of them need to b= e executed. They want all my money as ancestral wealth. Sridhar informed me= he would attack me wherever i am if i dont go to that house and sridhar ba= lan and many criminals are allowed to interact with my mother and believe i= am a disabled and used her to attack me. Today evening my life is in dange= r. Its an organisation of executable shameless thieves calling me poor by a= llowing many criminals like sridhar to prevent the old pulappatta house bei= ng disposed and to prove i am poor who was born there or something. Its because of VK sushllkumar and his childrens poverty that house is not d= isposed.Sridhar also threatened me that if i dont show up they would move m= y mother to an unknown location where i would never meet her. They want all of my money as KP Visalakshies wealth and steal it. They star= ted the shaktheyam movement to steal my money using her and a sindhu issue = and prevented sale of leela vilas and created a durga temple and stealing m= oney. I suspect Sridhar and balan and many criminals must have held my moth= er hostage and prevented me meeting with her when i was back from rishikesh= and then cruelly detained me in bethsada hospital and is unforgivable. I s= uspect her leg fracture is because of being attacked and malnutrition and f= ood poison. shylaja balan sridhar sarala need to be prosecuted to end medic= al cruelty against my mother and me. After getting the letter the bank foun= d she had only 3000Rs and send a man to get a fingerprint and she gave me o= nly 2000Rs. Sridhar did not try and attack me in front of that man. I expre= ssed i am an SBI customer who lost some money to SBI account holders and = SBI has not returned it thats why i shouted at them. I am worried that my m= other has been held hostage in 2015 and she has been cruelly treated and sh= e has deep fear thats why i am not able to get her consent to solve the cri= me. I suspect balan must have had some device to make her fall or something= first time. Second time she fell down because of malnutrition. malabarhosp= itals has to be invetsigated if it is giving money to sridhar or employing = anyone related to sridhar balan etc. Sridhar has attacked me and would attack me again. That house has to be sol= d and some money given to my mother and if they think they owe me money to = me also. I dont owe them any money and if my money has been used to help th= em its theft. many like sridhar are preventing me being married and fatheri= ng a child and trying to execute me using palakkad raj saga and spicing it= with stories like krakatao Please help Pradeep Kumar Xplorer ________________________________ From: pradeep xplorer Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2019 5:55 AM To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac= .in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1 Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrublof= f.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov= ; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; larrypage@google.com; larry.e= llison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@yogaworks.com; info@agamayo= ga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; = sumbody@sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.go= v; alerts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opporti= llo@globeacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtr= a.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeopathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.co= m; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyoz.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@j= phma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora= @seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; inf= o@homeopathy-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; em= imila@hotmail.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeop= atia.roman@wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-= asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; info@a-r-h.org; info= @th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com; beyoutifu= llivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srszsi@gmail.com; anrc= @zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare= @citi.com; info@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jop= anda@treasurer.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@= sbi.co.in; lorrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov= ; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.in; president@whitehouse= .gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@yogaworks.com; johnjohna= ssociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Guestservices@himalayaninsti= tute.org; Police@mountainview.gov Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing I am writing this from a double bedroom in aiswarya lodge one past namaskar= lodge in ksrtc busstand area. I entered old pulappatta house and i have tw= eeted the photos. It's an old house and not really inhabitable. I spend abo= ut half an hour there. My mother is inside a room again in some sort of kha= Di bed I observed these.. Sarala did not let me give bottle water.. when it opened some aquachill wat= er she took some water she has made like chukku vellam and gave it to her. = I bought some rheumaheal ointment and massaged her leg. Fbi has directed me= to call usa dept of state. So she is with sridhar and sarala and whatever = they give as food would enter her body. It's like very dirty house to me wi= th newer buildings all around. My mother asked me to go to rohinivilla and = sleep up that's not acceptible to me. In dialed her at about 130 am and she= has not picked up. She must have been fed congi in evening. When i was the= re sarala gave her horlicks and is took a sip. My stomach did not like it i= nstantly and is have a slight skin problem in right feet. Thats the old hou= se weLl water entering her body. I am posting photos of my current room in = my tweets right now Pradeep kumar xplorer ________________________________ From: pradeep xplorer Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2019 2:43:12 PM To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac= .in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1 Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrublof= f.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov= ; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; larrypage@google.com; larry.e= llison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@yogaworks.com; info@agamayo= ga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; = sumbody@sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.go= v; alerts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opporti= llo@globeacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtr= a.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeopathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.co= m; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyoz.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@j= phma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora= @seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; inf= o@homeopathy-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; em= imila@hotmail.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeop= atia.roman@wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-= asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; info@a-r-h.org; info= @th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com; beyoutifu= llivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srszsi@gmail.com; anrc= @zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare= @citi.com; info@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jop= anda@treasurer.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@= sbi.co.in; lorrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov= ; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.in; president@whitehouse= .gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@yogaworks.com; johnjohna= ssociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Guestservices@himalayaninsti= tute.org; Police@mountainview.gov Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing Despite my persistence because of selfish interests of sarala sridhar shyle= sh balan shylaja and all related to them my mother is in old pulappatta house. My phone stopped charging. They are d= escendants of late VK sushil kumar and not letting me go. I am worried about her being food poison and druggin= g and future hospitalisation. I have 8000Rs room and i can heal my mother and deal with other things. When i called my mothe= r the phone was switched off and when i called sarala my mother picked up p= hone. I have no home and just 4300rs now. My mother should give me 20000Rs tomorrow and i can take care of her in the= room near KSRTC busstand with clean restrooms and bed to rest. She needs t= o eat hop to a stool.. helped to change diapers and with health food and dr= inks her knees would heal.Meanwhile i can pursue my interests of relocating to calif= ornia and my website Please help that this is enforced. Pradeep Kumar Xplorer ________________________________ From: pradeep xplorer Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2019 11:52 AM To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac= .in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1 Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrublof= f.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov= ; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; larrypage@google.com; larry.e= llison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@yogaworks.com; info@agamayo= ga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; = sumbody@sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.go= v; alerts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opporti= llo@globeacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtr= a.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeopathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.co= m; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyoz.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@j= phma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora= @seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; inf= o@homeopathy-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; em= imila@hotmail.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeop= atia.roman@wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-= asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; info@a-r-h.org; info= @th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com; beyoutifu= llivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srszsi@gmail.com; anrc= @zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare= @citi.com; info@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jop= anda@treasurer.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@= sbi.co.in; lorrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov= ; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.in; president@whitehouse= .gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@yogaworks.com; johnjohna= ssociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Guestservices@himalayaninsti= tute.org; Police@mountainview.gov Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing Please enforce that my motehr is not discharged to old pulappatta or rohini= villa as it would result in more harm and her death. I can 24/7 take care o= f her for a month in a double bed room in ksrtc area namaskar lodge where w= e both have stayed before.I am going to take a look at the room now. The co= usins are problematic and depending on her and me and surname and it need t= o be ended. Its extreme civil rights abuse for me not being able to separat= e from the cousins that too that has attacked me and my mother as well. I am writing this from ayappa travels.. I am charging my mobile now. My mother wont get good food and would collapse from food poisoning if take= n care by sarala sridhar balan shylaja or shylesh. They are criminals intruding 24/7 and not selling old pulappatta house also I have reported to palakkad police i have been attacked by sridhar and sons= and balan and kannan. So why is this continuing. Pradeep Kumar Xplorer ________________________________ From: pradeep xplorer Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2019 8:55 AM To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac= .in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1 Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrublof= f.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov= ; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; larrypage@google.com; larry.e= llison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@yogaworks.com; info@agamayo= ga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; = sumbody@sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.go= v; alerts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opporti= llo@globeacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtr= a.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeopathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.co= m; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyoz.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@j= phma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora= @seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; inf= o@homeopathy-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; em= imila@hotmail.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeop= atia.roman@wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-= asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; info@a-r-h.org; info= @th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com; beyoutifu= llivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srszsi@gmail.com; anrc= @zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare= @citi.com; info@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jop= anda@treasurer.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@= sbi.co.in; lorrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov= ; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.in; president@whitehouse= .gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@yogaworks.com; johnjohna= ssociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Guestservices@himalayaninsti= tute.org; Police@mountainview.gov Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing I ate upma and fried egg from indian coffee house. I packed upma as it was = healthy good quality. I took an auto to make sure it enters my mothers body= . The criminals sridhar and sarala prevented it by sending a wheat dosa put= rid I spat out after one bite. My mother also made some sound eating it . I= gave her upma without chutney or Sambar and still she complained because o= f them sending dosa. My mother complained the upma is spicy or hot or chill= y but it did not have chilly and it was not hot. Sara the disturbed me givi= ng food by saying eat drugs. The upma was finally consumed by sharat. Shara= t should say yes to my request for help and shift her to double room. Inste= ad I am worried he thinks me and my mother killed his father. Sridhar saral= a shylaja balan kannan sridhars two sons are dangerous criminals to me that= has already managed to harm me and my mother and inflict too much cruelty = on both of us.. it has to be enforced for her safety that she is separated = from them and i am separated from them so I can take care of her and reloca= te. I gave letter that John george gave to Hemambika nagar police station. It's dangerous for my mother to be shifted to rohinivilla or pulappatta hou= se they would underfed her food poison her prevent me taking care of her an= d repeatedly put her under care of allopathic hospitals until she is dead. = My mother should be healed and made assertive and made to enjoy life and ch= ose holistic healing modalities Pradeep kumar xplorer 91.6238940417 ________________________________ From: pradeep xplorer Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2019 7:49:36 AM To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac= .in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1 Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrublof= f.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov= ; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; larrypage@google.com; larry.e= llison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@yogaworks.com; info@agamayo= ga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; = sumbody@sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.go= v; alerts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opporti= llo@globeacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtr= a.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeopathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.co= m; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyoz.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@j= phma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora= @seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; inf= o@homeopathy-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; em= imila@hotmail.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeop= atia.roman@wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-= asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; info@a-r-h.org; info= @th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com; beyoutifu= llivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srszsi@gmail.com; anrc= @zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare= @citi.com; info@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jop= anda@treasurer.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@= sbi.co.in; lorrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov= ; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.in; president@whitehouse= .gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@yogaworks.com; johnjohna= ssociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Guestservices@himalayaninsti= tute.org Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing I have given the letter written by shameera from John George's office to he= mambika nagar police. My mother should not Ingest anything made by shylaja = or their ensure congi milk and for that matter anyone food by cousins. I wa= nt to prevent further injuries and danger to her life she be discharged fro= m sai hospital to a double room in namaskar lodge for a month for 8000rs wh= ich is only 3000rs and it be enforced that she be dedrugged and given a cho= ice to chose treatment modality of ayurveda homoeo or spa yoga massage clas= s or naturopathy any thing other than allopathic. Sridhar and balan are dan= gerous that has harmed me and my mother using doctors and trying to execute= us Pradeep kumar xplorer 91.6238940417 ________________________________ From: pradeep xplorer Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 5:35:33 PM To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac= .in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1 Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrublof= f.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov= ; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; larrypage@google.com; larry.e= llison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@yogaworks.com; info@agamayo= ga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; = sumbody@sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.go= v; alerts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opporti= llo@globeacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtr= a.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeopathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.co= m; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyoz.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@j= phma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora= @seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; inf= o@homeopathy-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; em= imila@hotmail.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeop= atia.roman@wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-= asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; info@a-r-h.org; info= @th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com; beyoutifu= llivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srszsi@gmail.com; anrc= @zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare= @citi.com; info@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jop= anda@treasurer.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@= sbi.co.in; lorrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov= ; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.in; president@whitehouse= .gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@yogaworks.com Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing Balan entered here and tried to attack me saying i did not change my dress.= They are trying to food poison my mother. I am a person who washes clothes= and use them i use only one pair. I washed my tshirt and underwear and kha= ki pants is OK. They are now preventing me from giving the tender coconut. = Balan is a criminal trying to execute my mother and suspect behind this cri= me. My mother is again given saline. I have contacted the local authorities= of akathethara 91.491.2555208 they should charge balan for injuring my mot= hers head by underfeeding her. Balan sarala sridhar shylaja are the crimina= ls. My mothers body cannot be a quality testing ground. They are hovering o= ver her and i dont like it. I am an adult who does not have to see any of t= hese. In addition if these extorted the money I paid to sindhu in 2003 it i= s a major crime in which sindhu also might have been injured by these. Thes= e have prevented me from giving her tender coconut. I have cared for my mot= her and treated her for a year in mountianview using my income. And she wan= ted me here. So she did not keep tabs and helping me.these are preventing m= e being helped by her.i have no idea who has taken my money or why i cannot= have an income from yoga and software. Please request kunjikavu to appear = and help my mother to bsnl quarters some room. My mother would die if fed b= y them. Sarala and balan are criminals now claiming I am harming her or som= ething. These are shameless criminals promoted by some international crimin= al organisation using a surname usage and thieves Pradeep kumar xplorer ________________________________ From: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 4:56:37 PM To: rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilatesAssociation@gmail.com; = info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpol@vsnl.com; info@qatarair= ways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns.gov.in; press@interpol.i= nt; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac.in; supremecourt@nic.in;= mukundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1; pradeep xplorer Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrublof= f.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov= ; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; larrypage@google.com; larry.e= llison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@yogaworks.com; info@agamayo= ga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; = sumbody@sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.go= v; alerts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opporti= llo@globeacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtr= a.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeopathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.co= m; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyoz.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@j= phma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora= @seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; inf= o@homeopathy-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; em= imila@hotmail.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeop= atia.roman@wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-= asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; info@a-r-h.org; info= @th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com; beyoutifu= llivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srszsi@gmail.com; anrc= @zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare= @citi.com; info@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jop= anda@treasurer.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@= sbi.co.in; lorrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov= ; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.in; president@whitehouse= .gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@yogaworks.com Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing I managed to avoid food poison or anything from shylaja for my mother by be= ing here i gave her chai from down and idli from down and prevented sarala = from giving ensure. I talked to the spectacled doctor and my mother agreed = to drink horlicks with hot water. But i had to fight with sarala . I suspec= t they are having an income by maintaining the old pulappatta house which i= s like the only common wealth .. I owe nothing from pradeep kumar pulappatt= a accounts or pradeep kumar xplorer accounts to them. I left to avoid them = and i dont know what sarala gave. She vomited some time earlier I am trilli= on times certain she won't vomit anything if she is in kaliappa hotel or al= athur hotel in a room under my care so this is crime by local law enforcers= in akathethara hemambika nagar police station or whoever keeping my money = as common wealth. It could be a planned attack by sarala and shylesh who to= me are poor because they created children and i dont have even one. It's a= crime that mountain view police is unable to help or not helping or the us= embassies not enforcing and continuing harm to me and my mother. I do not = want any of vk sushilkumar and kp saradas children or their connections giv= ing anything to my mother as i suspect they may want to execute her. There = cannot be any room for chance. This has to be enforced at the level I am r= eporting Pradeep kumar xplorer Sent from MailDroid -----Original Message----- From: pradeep xplorer To: "pradeep@dhyanayoga.info" , "rwalker@scscourt.= org" , "icann@icann.org" , "USPilate= sAssociation@gmail.com" , "info@pilates.org= .au" , "office@brietenbush.com" , "delpol@vsnl.com" , "info@qatarairways.qa" , "directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in" ,= "dgp@tncctns.gov.in" , "press@interpol.int" , "info@archive.org" , "rkumar.kpm@nic.in" , "sasi@cdac.in" , "supremecourt@nic.in" , "mukundram2007@gmail.com" , IMB = Recipient 1 Cc: "scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil" = , "ladyofmanynames@gmail.com" , "ardenfire@yahoo= .com" , "sovereignamber@hotmail.com" , "fmcreative@fantasymakers.com" ,= "oig.hotline@ssa.gov" , "ssa.comments@ssa.gov" , "efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com" , "ehc@lighthouse-sf.org" , "rajik= .sharma@hdfcbank.com" , "dwestergreen@koenigrubl= off.com" , "amy@amytanathorn.com" , "amyji2@gmail.com" , "dmvmediarelations@dm= v.ca.gov" , "zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com" , "scottm@wayin.com" , "larrypage@goo= gle.com" , "larry.ellison@oracle.com" , "info@yogaalliance.org" , "info@yogawor= ks.com" , "info@agamayoga.com" , "m= ail@ashtangayoga.info" , "hilaryacer@gmail.com" , "info@yogasource.com" , "sumbody@= sumbody.com" , "askvisa@visa.com" , = "askvisausa@visa.com" , "askdoj@usdoj.gov" , "alerts@wellsfargo.com" , "john.c.gerspach@= citi.com" , "deptc@jcap.com" , "o= pportillo@globeacceptance.com" , "abuse@cha= se.com" , "pao.eoir@usdoj.gov" , "admi= nnzch@xtra.co.nz" , "chcadmin@comcast.net" , "info@homeopathyhongkong.org" , = "nashinfo@aol.com" , "ocharmenia@mail.com" , "admin@homeopathyoz.org" , "accueil@sphq.o= rg" , "office@jphma.org" , "info@ligaho= meopatica.be" , "bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com" , "homeopat.komora@seznam.cz" ,= "dskh@homeopati.dk" , "toimisto@homeopaatit.fi" , "office@vkhd.de" , "info@homeopathy-gre= ece.gr" , "ishom@eircom.net" ,= "info@corporazioneomeopati.org" , "emimila@= hotmail.com" , "mcutajar@maltanet.net" , "info@nvkh.nl" , "nhl@c2i.net" , "home= opatia.roman@wp.pl" , "aph.lxp@gmail.com" , "homeons@neobee.net" , "rada@homeopaticka-a= sociacia.sk" , "info@aehu.es" , "info@sakh.se" , "info@hvs.ch" , "info@a-r-h.= org" , "info@the-hma.org" , "info@homeopa= thy-soh.org" , "pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com" , "beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com" , "benefits.application@ssa.gov" , = "srszsi@gmail.com" , "anrc@zsi.gov.in" ,= "nrc@zsi.gov.in" , "hr@harbin.org" , "info@= olt.org" , "head.customercare@citi.com" , "info@jennervacationrentals.com" ,= "info@kinoyoga.com" , "Geneveive.jopanda@treasurer.ca.g= ov" , "dtocbe@nic.in" , = "agaekarnataka@cag.gov" , "Contactcentre@sbi.co.in" = , "lorrett@fantasymakers.com" , "Care@jio.com" , "gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov" , SPMC PHQ , "PHQ.pol@kerala.gov= .in" , "igadm@crpf.gov.in" , "pre= sident@whitehouse.gov" , "Kumaarj5@Gmail.com" , "Mumbaif@state.gov" , "Megan@yogawork= s.com" Sent: Mon, 01 Jul 2019 12:23 Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing Hello These are the events that again made me very disturbed. I tweeted in @pradeepxplorer1 that i was in a long beach hotel cabin with s= ee through glasses that i can see from inside but from outside they cannot see me..I was in a = double room with double bed that i paid 3000Rs and i was all alone and i did not have a girl frend or w= oman to enjoy the beach and evening and i posted in my website this is 2010 december past 20th i think and i ha= d explodingmoon.org only dhyanayoga.info was not available for registration and i recieved an email = from bkvarma88@hotmail.com that my mother got hospitalised and i am worried= if balan or sridhar or bharat or their connections attacked her. I had to = call from phone and my mother was admitted for second umbilical hernia operation i su= spect sirdhar and bharat was in touch and i suspect all of those are criminals claiming money from me using sindh= u and has some control over some funds or stealing my subscribers help using my domains claiming i am w= ealthy as Ex sun employee. After that tweet saraal entered the hospital and i started getting disturbe= d as she is not there to just visit but to ensure my mother is food poisoned or eat what she brings and they ca= n do anything. My mother was food poisoned by shylaja resulting in her eating very very less food,, one idli = in morning and one glass of rice water for lunch and one glass of milk for dinner, she lost ten kilogram and sensing that i trie= d to eat her my kind of food and balan attacked me. Balan has attacked me inside govt homoe kalpathy hospital and = also inside sai hospital yesterday. My mothers life would be in danger as she is already weak if she is shifted= back to rohinivilla. Kunjikav teacher my mothers colleague came and visited her and with her was some bsnl staff = jayakumar. It would be best if they can relocate to her a room somewhere there. I am willing to travel with her= to US airport and fly out with the help of US embassy chennai. I again assertively declare i am sole = owner author authority or dhyanayoga.info explodingmoon.org pradeepkumarxplorer.com and that money and fact is suffic= ient for me to live in USA with US citizenship with my mother or whatever status. Its not acceptible t= his case dispute uncertainty indecision continued another day. It would lea= d to my mothers death. The local police in akathethara is partner to this c= rime as they have partnered with attacking and hospitalising me after SUN was so= ld to ORACLE and even now not acknowledging me as author owner of websites dhyanayoga.info exploding= moon.org pradeepkumarxplorer.com This is what happened after sarala entered hospital (sai hospital room 20 o= lavakkode palakkad) She kept on asking her to drink ensure I reported that she should not give her ensure.. My mother had vomitted it = the day before she fell down. I am certain there was food poison I am certain the congi shylaja sends is low grade or with food poison I am certain Balan Kannan Sridhar two sons would not admit that they attack= ed me and would continue to attack me and do things to extort cash from my mother. I am sure they are not my wellwishers and trying to murder me and my mother= . Sarala and shylaja are partners to it. Bharat indira are also partners to it. If they are taking money paid to me its a very cruel crime that cannot be f= orgiven. Sarala started fighting with me and threatened me she would call someone to= attack me and called sridhar shylesh and when doctor entered i mentioned the ensure had food poison and should n= ot be given to my mother or the congi and the doctor agreed when i talked to him objectively. I then made horlick= s with hotwater. My mother had to be discharged to a different room with he= lp of kunjikavu or anyone like that i should get a solution to take her to = the airport and with help of uS embassies fly back to USa and get money/emp= loyment and lead my life. Sridhar and two sons Balan kannan has attacked me and still i have to see t= hem. yesterday balan and shylesh tried to attack me. shankaravarmas wife objected to me not changing pants. I also mentioned bluehost.com is not changing registrant contact of three d= omains to +91.6238940417. Please free the suspects accounts so that they dont have money to continue = this crime against me and my mother I am writing from ayyappa travels and i am just a customer here. Pradeep Kumar Xplorer +91.6238940417 --_000_MAXPR01MB23048041C764C1DEBCA3FF77B7F10MAXPR01MB2304INDP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


From: pradeep xplorer <p= radeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 9, 2019 11:39 AM
To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; = USPilatesAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com= ; delpol@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@= tncctns.gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac.in; supremecourt@nic.in; mu= kundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1
Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ar= denfire@yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com= ; oig.hotline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representativ= e.com; ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dm= vmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; lar= rypage@google.com; larry.ellison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@y= ogaworks.com; info@agamayoga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; sumbody= @sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.gov; aler= ts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opportillo@glo= beacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeo= pathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.com; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyo= z.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@jphma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_hom= eopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora@seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; info@homeopath= y-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; emimila@hotma= il.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeopatia.roman@= wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; i= nfo@a-r-h.org; info@th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfc= bank.com; beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srs= zsi@gmail.com; anrc@zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare@citi.com; i= nfo@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jopanda@treasur= er.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@sbi.co.in; l= orrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.= in; president@whitehouse.gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@= yogaworks.com; johnjohnassociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Gues= tservices@himalayaninstitute.org; spplkd.pol@kerala.gov.in; iucg@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and= openly towards executing me and my mother continuing
 
I am writing from mall in palakkad that has a jobys mall that I have u= sed before. I entered old pulappatta house and sRidhar and Sarala again obj= ected to me giving her bottle water. I am sensing organised activity knowin= g where I am and disturbing me. When I exited bus in akathethara senthil  the auto driver was in the = busstop and messaged someone. Prabhakara varmas daughter meena walked past.= I entered and she requested me to give water I gave from the red pet bottl= e I tested it too it was chukku vellam and i did not feel good. When I suggested I buy bottle water sRidhar threa= tened me to throw away all bottles I bring. SRidhar again verbally attacked= me. I have to be able to take her for an ayurveda vasti if possible. Becau= se of sRidhar and balan my mother is down in bed. She was underfed  and food poisoned in shylajas place= and she fell down and hurt her head and before her knees. I am now relieve= d that i have not seen balan shylaja rohini durga and I am worried the crim= inals have organised hareRama harekrishna in chepilamuri that I was forced to see when I returned by bus. Yesterday = the FBI fought with me obviously  some criminals following my tweets a= re calling them. The law  enforcers are negligent and prevented me hav= ing any income last 17 years and still allowing the organisation to continue criminal ways. I could not offer a few sips o= f appy fizz juice as soon as I opened it my mother protested and informed m= e sRidhar and Sarala  would Fight if she drinks it.
I again state this is serious crime using large value of money taken from s= unw market cap and using my websites as vehicles for its investment 65 bill= ion us dollars in 2007.
They are calling me wealthy and trying to kill me. I had to beg in Delhi fo= r food money and sleep in mountains of palakkad in 2015. There's no public = record of use of my websites it's theft by many authorities and who are now= trying to kill me and my mother.
I have a right to look after my mother and break up with my mother.  I= t's suspect economic activity in temples of akathethara esp durga temple ch= epilamuri I see many houses worth above 50000000rs but me and my mother are= homeless with expired address in identity documents
Please help enforce my separation from cousins and that I can take care of = my old mother and end of cybercrime using my websites
Pradeep kumar xplorer
From: pradeep xplorer <p= radeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Monday, July 8, 2019 11:46:59 PM
To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; = USPilatesAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com= ; delpol@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@= tncctns.gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac.in; supremecourt@nic.in; mu= kundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1
Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ar= denfire@yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com= ; oig.hotline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representativ= e.com; ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dm= vmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; lar= rypage@google.com; larry.ellison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@y= ogaworks.com; info@agamayoga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; sumbody= @sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.gov; aler= ts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opportillo@glo= beacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeo= pathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.com; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyo= z.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@jphma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_hom= eopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora@seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; info@homeopath= y-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; emimila@hotma= il.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeopatia.roman@= wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; i= nfo@a-r-h.org; info@th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfc= bank.com; beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srs= zsi@gmail.com; anrc@zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare@citi.com; i= nfo@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jopanda@treasur= er.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@sbi.co.in; l= orrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.= in; president@whitehouse.gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@= yogaworks.com; johnjohnassociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Gues= tservices@himalayaninstitute.org; spplkd.pol@kerala.gov.in; iucg@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and= openly towards executing me and my mother continuing
 
I could not relocate my mother to a double room. Arya  vaidya&nbs= p; pharmacy has recommended vasti  to her. I sense a danger to her as = sRidhar again tried to fight with me in evening. I am in the lodge that won= 't be available for next three days. There has to be payment enforcement  to me and not distability pension. I objec= t to this exploitation  continuing using my domains. Please ensure my = mother is safe and sRidhar won't attack Me in morning. The FBI has not enfo= rced payment and someone victor guevara is not logical and fought with me
Pradeep kumar xplorer
From: pradeep xplorer <= ;pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Monday, July 8, 2019 1:27:42 PM
To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; = USPilatesAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com= ; delpol@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@= tncctns.gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac.in; supremecourt@nic.in; mu= kundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1
Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ar= denfire@yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com= ; oig.hotline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representativ= e.com; ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dm= vmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; lar= rypage@google.com; larry.ellison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@y= ogaworks.com; info@agamayoga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; sumbody= @sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.gov; aler= ts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opportillo@glo= beacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeo= pathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.com; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyo= z.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@jphma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_hom= eopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora@seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; info@homeopath= y-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; emimila@hotma= il.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeopatia.roman@= wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; i= nfo@a-r-h.org; info@th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfc= bank.com; beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srs= zsi@gmail.com; anrc@zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare@citi.com; i= nfo@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jopanda@treasur= er.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@sbi.co.in; l= orrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.= in; president@whitehouse.gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@= yogaworks.com; johnjohnassociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Gues= tservices@himalayaninstitute.org; spplkd.pol@kerala.gov.in; cihbngrpkd.pol@kerala.gov.in; iucg@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and= openly towards executing me and my mother continuing
 
This is OLX Mobiles number.. I have a dispute with them. They did not fix m= y samsung J2 and extorted 1600rs from me when i am in danger zone with too = little cash. The android is not working.. Theres a small crack on display. = It had a blue covering when i picked it up. I removed it day before yesterday and there was a crack. I managed = to get 8000Rs from my mother. I helped her use bedpan and could remove agai= n ten grams of faeces.. Her anus is clogged. May be she would accept an ene= ma from me tomorrow but at the same time i am unhappy she is stuck in that place and the variabales for the cr= ime are too much. I am saying my money is expended by palakkad raj or some = organisation without any fear and they want me dead.. 

The man now in OLX mobiles opposite chennai mobiles in Post office junction= palakkad was very rude. This is the number displayed. OLX Mobiles +91.= 7756364676

VK shankaravarma has entered pulappatta house after i helped my mother use = bedpan.

I dont like this prolonged. I have a temporary solution. Morning i ate idli= in Indraprastha but they poisoned me in coffee and i have heart congestion= . 

I have to get a 4G device to use my JIO sim. A shop has agreed to take it f= or 1000Rs and give something else for their price. The 4G J4 they are askin= g 4800 so i have to give 3800Rs thats too much. I said to take it for 3000R= s. I am poor now because of crime continuing. I am without woman or any life and unable to rescue my mother = from harmful custody by cousins

Pradeep Kumar XPlorer
+91.6238940417

From: pradeep xplorer &= lt;pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 7, 2019 12:03 PM
To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; = USPilatesAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com= ; delpol@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@= tncctns.gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac.in; supremecourt@nic.in; mu= kundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1
Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ar= denfire@yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com= ; oig.hotline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representativ= e.com; ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dm= vmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; lar= rypage@google.com; larry.ellison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@y= ogaworks.com; info@agamayoga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; sumbody= @sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.gov; aler= ts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opportillo@glo= beacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeo= pathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.com; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyo= z.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@jphma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_hom= eopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora@seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; info@homeopath= y-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; emimila@hotma= il.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeopatia.roman@= wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; i= nfo@a-r-h.org; info@th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfc= bank.com; beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srs= zsi@gmail.com; anrc@zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare@citi.com; i= nfo@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jopanda@treasur= er.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@sbi.co.in; l= orrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.= in; president@whitehouse.gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@= yogaworks.com; johnjohnassociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Gues= tservices@himalayaninstitute.org; spplkd.pol@kerala.gov.in; cihbngrpkd.pol@kerala.gov.in; iucg@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and= openly towards executing me and my mother continuing
 
My android is not fixed has display problems or OS Problems did not respond= to touch and the parties that repaired it are not working today. I could g= ive only a sip of water to my mother in morning. I have only 550Rs and my m= other need to help me with atleast 8000Rs tomorrow. She has to shift with me so she does not lose money to th= e poor cousins and husbands like sridhar and balan who are in it for for cy= bercrime and exploiting me as well. I have expended for her in 90s and 2000= s so this is informal arrangement until i get a solution of end of cybercrime and restoration of life in Cal= ifornia.
Pradeep Kumar Xplorer

From: pradeep xplorer= <pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 6, 2019 6:23 PM
To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; = USPilatesAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com= ; delpol@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@= tncctns.gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac.in; supremecourt@nic.in; mu= kundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1
Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ar= denfire@yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com= ; oig.hotline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representativ= e.com; ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dm= vmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; lar= rypage@google.com; larry.ellison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@y= ogaworks.com; info@agamayoga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; sumbody= @sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.gov; aler= ts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opportillo@glo= beacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeo= pathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.com; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyo= z.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@jphma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_hom= eopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora@seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; info@homeopath= y-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; emimila@hotma= il.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeopatia.roman@= wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; i= nfo@a-r-h.org; info@th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfc= bank.com; beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srs= zsi@gmail.com; anrc@zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare@citi.com; i= nfo@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jopanda@treasur= er.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@sbi.co.in; l= orrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.= in; president@whitehouse.gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@= yogaworks.com; johnjohnassociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Gues= tservices@himalayaninstitute.org; spplkd.pol@kerala.gov.in; cihbngrpkd.pol@kerala.gov.in
Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and= openly towards executing me and my mother continuing
 
I entered oldpulappatta house and when enquiring where is the icecream ball= i bought for my mother sridhar verbally attacked me and tried to provoke m= e into a fight. he says he would not allow me to give anything to her or lo= ok after her. I noticed he has extorted some cash to buy her a bedpan and to prevent me helping her use the chair = stool.
I was attacked by sridhar and two sons in Nov 2013 and hospitalised and har= med and i have complained to palakkad district police. I have now a room in= palakkad for 400rs where if they did not object i would have relocated her= . My mothers life is in danger and she has alerady been harmed and drugged and underfed by sridhar and balan.= These prevented me renting in mettupalayam in end of 2017 and attacked and= hospitalised and injured my yoga body. Sridhar is a criminal medical repre= sentative and me and my mother are his victims. I am a Thai spa yoga class being and i was harmed four times = after SUN was sold to ORACLE.
Theres an organisation employed using my websites expending money i sh= ould have expended for my personal life in MountainView California in 2004.=
They have destroyed my immigration status in USA and preventing me get= ting any income funds employment in India and attacked and harmed me.
They prevented me from marrying another woman after i broke up with am= y rainier starkey in April 2001 and used a dead sindhu issue to extort 8000= 00Rs from my citigold account in bangalore in Aug 2003. Again i suspect they did not allow sindhu to enjoy it and ext= orted and build the house in chepilamuri.
Balan and sridhar have partnered with an organisation exploiting me an= d slowly killing me and my mother. My mother would not have had knee surger= y if she was with me. They underfed her and she fell down and even after knee surgery they underfed her and made h= er fall and injure her head. Its as if balan and sridhar has hurt her head = with an axe. I could have discharged her from sai hospital to a double room=
instead she is now inside old pulappatta house and they are getting so= me cash and sometimes food poisoning her. I was prevented from breaking up = with her in 2004 when i should have been reemployed and married to someone else like amy and i would have fathered = children. This is an organised crime exploiting use of surname pulappatta a= nd thats an old house that should have been dismantled decades ago. Whoever= employed world wide using my websites are thieves and trying to kill my mother and me. I have no clue why CI of = hemambika nagar is not negotiating me separated from cousins and my mother = under my care so i can solve my US situation and relocate back. I have only= 700Rs and my mother could be used to attack me when i would ask for 10000Rs day after tomorrow. The informal= agreement between me and my mother is she helping me by 500Rs as i have ex= pended money for her when sun employed and treated her well in usa for a ye= ar and also paid her money. 
I again suspect sindhu was used to extort 800000Rs from my citigold ac= count to exploit me and my website publishing and not pay me my money to se= tttle in bayarea. Then they created situation where sun was sold to oracle and had me attacked and sindhu married to som= eone and kannan married rohini. I reported to udit chaithanya her life is i= n danger he ignored now my mother has a head wound so i suspect them as wel= l.
ANyway its a risk for me being in pulappatta house and my mother shoul= d be with me and the cousins should not bother me. This has to be enforced = by local law enforcement because sridhar is preventing me shifting with her.  I suspect if the 175000Rs she ha= d in SBI was stolen or in an fixed deposit. 

Please help end this situation
Pradeep Kumar Xplorer

From: pradeep xplor= er <pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Friday, July 5, 2019 5:56 PM
To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; = USPilatesAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com= ; delpol@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@= tncctns.gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac.in; supremecourt@nic.in; mu= kundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1
Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ar= denfire@yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com= ; oig.hotline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representativ= e.com; ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dm= vmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; lar= rypage@google.com; larry.ellison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@y= ogaworks.com; info@agamayoga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; sumbody= @sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.gov; aler= ts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opportillo@glo= beacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeo= pathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.com; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyo= z.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@jphma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_hom= eopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora@seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; info@homeopath= y-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; emimila@hotma= il.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeopatia.roman@= wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; i= nfo@a-r-h.org; info@th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfc= bank.com; beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srs= zsi@gmail.com; anrc@zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare@citi.com; i= nfo@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jopanda@treasur= er.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@sbi.co.in; l= orrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.= in; president@whitehouse.gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@= yogaworks.com; johnjohnassociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Gues= tservices@himalayaninstitute.org; Police@mountainview.gov
Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and= openly towards executing me and my mother continuing
 
These are the events of the day
I reported my situation and medical cruelty suffered by my mother to FBI, M= ountainView police, USDOJ, Executive office of immigration review and many = others in this list.
Today morning while resting in ashirvad lodge i kept my mobile for charging= and it fell down
and display was damaged. I dont know if it was trembled artificially. = I went to shop that i purchased it
and they wanted 1800Rs. I had only 2200Rs. 
I went to pulappatta house. Ammini relative of mathrubhumi founder kp kesav= amenon was present
After my mother ate lunch she signed 10000Rs for me. She was saying theres = only 3000Rs in it.
She did not say who she asked to Create Fixed deposit.
I went to malampuzha road SBI and they did not honor the cheque claiming si= gnature mismatch.
I suspect who encashed the 100000rs from 275000rs account. They asked me to= get a letter signed by my mother that this is her current signature. I wen= t to the house and sridhar tried to fight with me. Thats a criminal not pun= ished by law enforcement and still used to attack me. Sridhar and two sons have attacked me  in nov 2013= and i reported  to palakkad police and nothing has been done. So he s= till attacks me. After attacking me in nov 2013 hi two sons got employed. I= suspect Sridhar and sons must have attacked my mother as well. The two sons look well fed like fighters. Sridhar tried= to attack me when exiting also and autodriver farooq saw it. I suspect sar= ala has food poisoned her also. Her vital energy is less. Sridhar is a crim= inal that has harmed my mother using hospitals and harmed me also using allopathic hospitals and getting away w= ith it. Because of the Sridhar sarala shylaja balan i am not able to heal m= y mother give her an enema or massage or heal her by health food and i accu= se them as being allowed to slowly kill my mother and they would kill me too. Sridhar threatened me that i sh= ould not stay anywhere and sleep there. Sridhar and the BJP RSS are crimina= ls that has prevented me marrying anyone using a sindhu issue and all of th= em need to be executed. They want all my money as ancestral wealth. Sridhar informed me he would attack me w= herever i am if i dont go to that house and sridhar balan and many criminal= s are allowed to interact with my mother and believe i am a disabled and us= ed her to attack me. Today evening my life is in danger. Its an organisation of executable shameless thieves = calling me poor by allowing many criminals like sridhar to prevent the old = pulappatta house being disposed and to prove i am poor who was born there o= r something.
Its because of VK sushllkumar and his childrens poverty that house is not d= isposed.Sridhar also threatened me that if i dont show up they would move m= y mother to an unknown location where i would never meet her.
They want all of my money as KP Visalakshies wealth and steal it. They star= ted the shaktheyam movement to steal my money using her and a sindhu issue = and prevented sale of leela vilas and created a durga temple and stealing m= oney. I suspect Sridhar and balan and many criminals must have held my mother hostage and prevented me meeti= ng with her when i was back from rishikesh and then cruelly detained me in = bethsada hospital and is unforgivable. I suspect her leg fracture is becaus= e of being attacked and malnutrition and food poison. shylaja balan sridhar sarala need to be prosecuted to end= medical cruelty against my mother and me. After getting the letter the ban= k found she had only 3000Rs and send a man to get a fingerprint and she gav= e me only 2000Rs. Sridhar did not try and attack me in front of that man. I expressed i am an  SBI = ; customer who lost some money to SBI account holders and SBI has not retur= ned it thats why i shouted at them. I am worried that my mother has been he= ld hostage in 2015 and she has been cruelly treated and she has deep fear thats why i am not able to get her consent t= o solve the crime. I suspect balan must have had some device to make her fa= ll or something first time. Second time she fell down because of malnutriti= on. malabarhospitals has to be invetsigated if it is giving money to sridhar or employing anyone related to sridhar ba= lan etc.
Sridhar has attacked me and would attack me again. That house has to be sol= d and some money given to my mother and if they think they owe me money to = me also. I dont owe them any money and if my money has been used to help th= em its theft. many like sridhar are preventing me being married and fathering a child and  trying to = execute me using palakkad raj saga and spicing it with stories like krakata= o
Please help
Pradeep Kumar Xplorer



From: pradeep xpl= orer <pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2019 5:55 AM
To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; = USPilatesAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com= ; delpol@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@= tncctns.gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac.in; supremecourt@nic.in; mu= kundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1
Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ar= denfire@yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com= ; oig.hotline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representativ= e.com; ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dm= vmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; lar= rypage@google.com; larry.ellison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@y= ogaworks.com; info@agamayoga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; sumbody= @sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.gov; aler= ts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opportillo@glo= beacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeo= pathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.com; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyo= z.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@jphma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_hom= eopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora@seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; info@homeopath= y-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; emimila@hotma= il.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeopatia.roman@= wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; i= nfo@a-r-h.org; info@th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfc= bank.com; beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srs= zsi@gmail.com; anrc@zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare@citi.com; i= nfo@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jopanda@treasur= er.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@sbi.co.in; l= orrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.= in; president@whitehouse.gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@= yogaworks.com; johnjohnassociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Gues= tservices@himalayaninstitute.org; Police@mountainview.gov
Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and= openly towards executing me and my mother continuing
 
I am writing this from a double bedroom = in aiswarya lodge one past namaskar lodge in ksrtc busstand area. I entered= old pulappatta house and i have tweeted the photos. It's an old house and = not really inhabitable. I spend about half an hour there. My mother is inside a room again in some sort of khaDi= bed
I observed these..
Sarala did not let me give bottle water.. when it opened some aquachill wat= er she took some water she has made like chukku vellam and gave it to her. = I bought some rheumaheal ointment and massaged her leg. Fbi has directed me= to call usa dept of state. So she is with sridhar and sarala and whatever they give as food would enter her = body. It's like very dirty house to me with newer buildings all around. My = mother asked me to go to rohinivilla and sleep up that's not acceptible to = me. In dialed her at about 130 am and she has not picked up. She must have been fed congi in evening. When i= was there sarala gave her horlicks and is took a sip. My stomach did not l= ike it instantly and is have a slight skin problem in right feet. Thats the= old house weLl water entering her body. I am posting photos of my current room in my tweets right now
Pradeep kumar xplorer
________________________________
From: pradeep xplorer <pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2019 2:43:12 PM
To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac.in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.= com; IMB Recipient 1
Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dm= vmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; lar= rypage@google.com; larry.ellison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@y= ogaworks.com; info@agamayoga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; sumbody= @sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.gov; aler= ts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opportillo@glo= beacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeo= pathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.com; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyo= z.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@jphma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_hom= eopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora@seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; info@homeopath= y-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; emimila@hotma= il.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeopatia.roman@= wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; i= nfo@a-r-h.org; info@th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfc= bank.com; beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srs= zsi@gmail.com; anrc@zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare@citi.com; i= nfo@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jopanda@treasur= er.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@sbi.co.in; l= orrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.= in; president@whitehouse.gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@= yogaworks.com; johnjohnassociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Gues= tservices@himalayaninstitute.org; Police@mountainview.gov
Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing

Despite my persistence because of selfish interests of sarala sridhar shyle= sh balan shylaja and all related to them
my mother is in old pulappatta house. My phone stopped charging. They are d= escendants of late VK sushil kumar
and not letting me go. I am worried about her being food poison and druggin= g and future hospitalisation. I have 8000Rs room
and i can heal my mother and deal with other things. When i called my mothe= r the phone was switched off and when i called sarala my mother picked up p= hone.
I have no home and just 4300rs now.
My mother should give me 20000Rs tomorrow and i can take care of her in the= room near KSRTC busstand with clean restrooms and bed to rest. She needs t= o eat hop to a stool.. helped to change diapers and with health food and dr= inks her
knees would heal.Meanwhile i can pursue my interests of relocating to calif= ornia and my website
Please help that this is enforced.
Pradeep Kumar Xplorer

________________________________
From: pradeep xplorer <pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2019 11:52 AM
To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac.in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.= com; IMB Recipient 1
Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dm= vmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; lar= rypage@google.com; larry.ellison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@y= ogaworks.com; info@agamayoga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; sumbody= @sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.gov; aler= ts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opportillo@glo= beacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeo= pathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.com; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyo= z.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@jphma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_hom= eopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora@seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; info@homeopath= y-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; emimila@hotma= il.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeopatia.roman@= wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; i= nfo@a-r-h.org; info@th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfc= bank.com; beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srs= zsi@gmail.com; anrc@zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare@citi.com; i= nfo@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jopanda@treasur= er.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@sbi.co.in; l= orrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.= in; president@whitehouse.gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@= yogaworks.com; johnjohnassociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Gues= tservices@himalayaninstitute.org; Police@mountainview.gov
Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing

Please enforce that my motehr is not discharged to old pulappatta or rohini= villa as it would result in more harm and her death. I can 24/7 take care o= f her for a month in a double bed room in ksrtc area namaskar lodge where w= e both have stayed before.I am going to take a look at the room now. The cousins are problematic and depending = on her and me and surname and it need to be ended. Its extreme civil rights= abuse for me not being able to separate from the cousins that too that has= attacked me and my mother as well.
I am writing this from ayappa travels..
I am charging my mobile now.
My mother wont get good food and would collapse from food poisoning if take= n care by sarala sridhar balan shylaja or shylesh.
They are criminals intruding 24/7 and not selling old pulappatta house also=
I have reported to palakkad police i have been attacked by sridhar and sons= and balan and kannan.
So why is this continuing.
Pradeep Kumar Xplorer


________________________________
From: pradeep xplorer <pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2019 8:55 AM
To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac.in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.= com; IMB Recipient 1
Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dm= vmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; lar= rypage@google.com; larry.ellison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@y= ogaworks.com; info@agamayoga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; sumbody= @sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.gov; aler= ts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opportillo@glo= beacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeo= pathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.com; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyo= z.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@jphma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_hom= eopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora@seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; info@homeopath= y-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; emimila@hotma= il.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeopatia.roman@= wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; i= nfo@a-r-h.org; info@th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfc= bank.com; beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srs= zsi@gmail.com; anrc@zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare@citi.com; i= nfo@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jopanda@treasur= er.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@sbi.co.in; l= orrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.= in; president@whitehouse.gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@= yogaworks.com; johnjohnassociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Gues= tservices@himalayaninstitute.org; Police@mountainview.gov
Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing

I ate upma and fried egg from indian coffee house. I packed upma as it was = healthy good quality. I took an auto to make sure it enters my mothers body= . The criminals sridhar and sarala prevented it by sending a wheat dosa put= rid I spat out after one bite. My mother also made some sound eating it . I gave her upma without chutney or= Sambar and still she complained because of them sending dosa. My mother co= mplained the upma is spicy or hot or chilly but it did not have chilly and = it was not hot. Sara the disturbed me giving food by saying eat drugs. The upma was finally consumed by shara= t. Sharat should say yes to my request for help and shift her to double roo= m. Instead I am worried he thinks me and my mother killed his father. Sridh= ar sarala shylaja balan kannan sridhars two sons are dangerous criminals to me that has already managed to harm me= and my mother and inflict too much cruelty on both of us.. it has to be en= forced for her safety that she is separated from them and i am separated fr= om them so I can take care of her and relocate.
I gave letter that John george gave to Hemambika nagar police station.
It's dangerous for my mother to be shifted to rohinivilla or pulappatta hou= se they would underfed her food poison her prevent me taking care of her an= d repeatedly put her under care of allopathic hospitals until she is dead. = My mother should be healed and made assertive and made to enjoy life and chose holistic healing modalities
Pradeep kumar xplorer
91.6238940417
________________________________
From: pradeep xplorer <pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2019 7:49:36 AM
To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac.in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.= com; IMB Recipient 1
Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dm= vmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; lar= rypage@google.com; larry.ellison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@y= ogaworks.com; info@agamayoga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; sumbody= @sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.gov; aler= ts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opportillo@glo= beacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeo= pathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.com; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyo= z.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@jphma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_hom= eopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora@seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; info@homeopath= y-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; emimila@hotma= il.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeopatia.roman@= wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; i= nfo@a-r-h.org; info@th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfc= bank.com; beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srs= zsi@gmail.com; anrc@zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare@citi.com; i= nfo@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jopanda@treasur= er.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@sbi.co.in; l= orrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.= in; president@whitehouse.gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@= yogaworks.com; johnjohnassociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Gues= tservices@himalayaninstitute.org
Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing

I have given the letter written by shameera from John George's office to he= mambika nagar police. My mother should not Ingest anything made by shylaja = or their ensure congi milk and for that matter anyone food by cousins. I wa= nt to prevent further injuries and danger to her life she be discharged from sai hospital to a double room in= namaskar lodge for a month for 8000rs which is only 3000rs and it be enfor= ced that she be dedrugged and given a choice to chose treatment modality of= ayurveda homoeo or spa yoga massage class or naturopathy any thing other than allopathic. Sridhar and balan ar= e dangerous that has harmed me and my mother using doctors and trying to ex= ecute us
Pradeep kumar xplorer
91.6238940417
________________________________
From: pradeep xplorer <pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 5:35:33 PM
To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac.in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.= com; IMB Recipient 1
Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dm= vmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; lar= rypage@google.com; larry.ellison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@y= ogaworks.com; info@agamayoga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; sumbody= @sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.gov; aler= ts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opportillo@glo= beacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeo= pathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.com; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyo= z.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@jphma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_hom= eopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora@seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; info@homeopath= y-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; emimila@hotma= il.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeopatia.roman@= wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; i= nfo@a-r-h.org; info@th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfc= bank.com; beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srs= zsi@gmail.com; anrc@zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare@citi.com; i= nfo@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jopanda@treasur= er.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@sbi.co.in; l= orrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.= in; president@whitehouse.gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@= yogaworks.com
Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing

Balan entered here and tried to attack me saying i did not change my dress.= They are trying to food poison my mother. I am a person who washes clothes= and use them i use only one pair. I washed my tshirt and underwear and kha= ki pants is OK. They are now preventing me from giving the tender coconut. Balan is a criminal trying to execute m= y mother and suspect behind this crime. My mother is again given saline. I = have contacted the local authorities of akathethara 91.491.2555208 they sho= uld charge balan for injuring my mothers head by underfeeding her. Balan sarala sridhar shylaja are the cri= minals. My mothers body cannot be a quality testing ground. They are hoveri= ng over her and i dont like it. I am an adult who does not have to see any = of these. In addition if these extorted the money I paid to sindhu in 2003 it is a major crime in which sindhu als= o might have been injured by these. These have prevented me from giving her= tender coconut. I have cared for my mother and treated her for a year in m= ountianview using my income. And she wanted me here. So she did not keep tabs and helping me.these are prev= enting me being helped by her.i have no idea who has taken my money or why = i cannot have an income from yoga and software. Please request kunjikavu to= appear and help my mother to bsnl quarters some room. My mother would die if fed by them. Sarala and balan a= re criminals now claiming I am harming her or something. These are shameles= s criminals promoted by some international criminal organisation using a su= rname usage and thieves
Pradeep kumar xplorer
________________________________
From: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info <pradeep@dhyanayoga.info>
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 4:56:37 PM
To: rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilatesAssociation@gmail.com; = info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpol@vsnl.com; info@qatarair= ways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns.gov.in; press@interpol.i= nt; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac.in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient = 1; pradeep xplorer
Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dm= vmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; lar= rypage@google.com; larry.ellison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@y= ogaworks.com; info@agamayoga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; sumbody= @sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.gov; aler= ts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opportillo@glo= beacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeo= pathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.com; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyo= z.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@jphma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_hom= eopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora@seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; info@homeopath= y-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; emimila@hotma= il.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeopatia.roman@= wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; i= nfo@a-r-h.org; info@th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfc= bank.com; beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srs= zsi@gmail.com; anrc@zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare@citi.com; i= nfo@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jopanda@treasur= er.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@sbi.co.in; l= orrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.= in; president@whitehouse.gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@= yogaworks.com
Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing

I managed to avoid food poison or anything from shylaja for my mother by be= ing here i gave her chai from down and idli from down and prevented sarala = from giving ensure. I talked to the spectacled doctor and my mother agreed = to drink horlicks with hot water. But i had to fight with sarala . I suspect they are having an income by ma= intaining the old pulappatta house which is like the only common wealth .. = I owe nothing from pradeep kumar pulappatta accounts or pradeep kumar xplor= er accounts to them. I left to avoid them and i dont know what sarala gave. She vomited some time earlier I am = trillion times certain she won't vomit anything if she is in kaliappa hotel= or alathur hotel in a room under my care so this is crime by local law enf= orcers in akathethara hemambika nagar police station or whoever keeping my money as common wealth. It coul= d be a planned attack by sarala and shylesh who to me are poor because they= created children and i dont have even one. It's a crime that mountain view= police is unable to help or not helping or the us embassies not enforcing and continuing harm to me and my= mother. I do not want any of vk sushilkumar and kp saradas children or the= ir connections giving anything to my mother as i suspect they may want to e= xecute her. There cannot be any room for  chance. This has to be enforced at the level I am reporting=
Pradeep kumar xplorer

Sent from MailDroid<https://goo.gl/ODg= wBb>

-----Original Message-----
From: pradeep xplorer <pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
To: "pradeep@dhyanayoga.info" <pradeep@dhyanayoga.info>, &q= uot;rwalker@scscourt.org" <rwalker@scscourt.org>, "icann@ic= ann.org" <icann@icann.org>, "USPilatesAssociation@gmail.com= " <USPilatesAssociation@gmail.com>, "info@pilates.org.au&qu= ot; <info@pilates.org.au>, "office@brietenbush.com" <office@brietenbush.com>, "delpol@vsnl.com" <delpol@vsn= l.com>, "info@qatarairways.qa" <info@qatarairways.qa>, &= quot;directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in" <directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in>= ;, "dgp@tncctns.gov.in" <dgp@tncctns.gov.in>, "press@i= nterpol.int" <press@interpol.int>, "info@archive.org" <info@archive.org>, "rkumar.kpm@ni= c.in" <rkumar.kpm@nic.in>, "sasi@cdac.in" <sasi@cda= c.in>, "supremecourt@nic.in" <supremecourt@nic.in>, &quo= t;mukundram2007@gmail.com" <mukundram2007@gmail.com>, IMB Recipi= ent 1 <mspop3connector.info@nvkh.nl>
Cc: "scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil" <scotte.stafford@siap.= pentagon.mil>, "ladyofmanynames@gmail.com" <ladyofmanynames= @gmail.com>, "ardenfire@yahoo.com" <ardenfire@yahoo.com>= , "sovereignamber@hotmail.com" <sovereignamber@hotmail.com>= , "fmcreative@fantasymakers.com" <fmcreative@fantasymakers.com>, "oig.hotline@ssa.gov" <= oig.hotline@ssa.gov>, "ssa.comments@ssa.gov" <ssa.comments@= ssa.gov>, "efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com" <efcc.niger= ia.org@representative.com>, "ehc@lighthouse-sf.org" <ehc@li= ghthouse-sf.org>, "rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com" <rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com>, "dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com&qu= ot; <dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com>, "amy@amytanathorn.com"= ; <amy@amytanathorn.com>, "amyji2@gmail.com" <amyji2@gma= il.com>, "dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov" <dmvmediarelations@= dmv.ca.gov>, "zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com" <zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com>, "scottm@wayin.com" <scottm@= wayin.com>, "larrypage@google.com" <larrypage@google.com>= ;, "larry.ellison@oracle.com" <larry.ellison@oracle.com>, &= quot;info@yogaalliance.org" <info@yogaalliance.org>, "info@= yogaworks.com" <info@yogaworks.com>, "info@agamayoga.com" <info@agamayoga.com>, "mail@asht= angayoga.info" <mail@ashtangayoga.info>, "hilaryacer@gmail.= com" <hilaryacer@gmail.com>, "info@yogasource.com" <= ;info@yogasource.com>, "sumbody@sumbody.com" <sumbody@sumbo= dy.com>, "askvisa@visa.com" <askvisa@visa.com>, "askvisausa@visa.com" <askvisausa@visa.com>, "askdoj@= usdoj.gov" <askdoj@usdoj.gov>, "alerts@wellsfargo.com"= <alerts@wellsfargo.com>, "john.c.gerspach@citi.com" <jo= hn.c.gerspach@citi.com>, "deptc@jcap.com" <deptc@jcap.com&g= t;, "opportillo@globeacceptance.com" <opportillo@globeacceptance.com>, "abuse@chase.com" <ab= use@chase.com>, "pao.eoir@usdoj.gov" <pao.eoir@usdoj.gov>= ;, "adminnzch@xtra.co.nz" <adminnzch@xtra.co.nz>, "chc= admin@comcast.net" <chcadmin@comcast.net>, "info@homeopathy= hongkong.org" <info@homeopathyhongkong.org>, "nashinfo@aol.com" <nashinfo@aol.com>, "ocharmenia@ma= il.com" <ocharmenia@mail.com>, "admin@homeopathyoz.org"= ; <admin@homeopathyoz.org>, "accueil@sphq.org" <accueil@= sphq.org>, "office@jphma.org" <office@jphma.org>, "= info@ligahomeopatica.be" <info@ligahomeopatica.be>, "bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com" <bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com>, "= ;homeopat.komora@seznam.cz" <homeopat.komora@seznam.cz>, "d= skh@homeopati.dk" <dskh@homeopati.dk>, "toimisto@homeopaati= t.fi" <toimisto@homeopaatit.fi>, "office@vkhd.de" <= office@vkhd.de>, "info@homeopathy-greece.gr" <info@homeopathy-greece.gr>, "ishom@eircom.net" <ishom@= eircom.net>, "info@corporazioneomeopati.org" <info@corporaz= ioneomeopati.org>, "emimila@hotmail.com" <emimila@hotmail.c= om>, "mcutajar@maltanet.net" <mcutajar@maltanet.net>, &q= uot;info@nvkh.nl" <info@nvkh.nl>, "nhl@c2i.net" <nhl@c2i.net>, "homeopatia.roman@wp.pl&= quot; <homeopatia.roman@wp.pl>, "aph.lxp@gmail.com" <aph= .lxp@gmail.com>, "homeons@neobee.net" <homeons@neobee.net&g= t;, "rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk" <rada@homeopaticka-asocia= cia.sk>, "info@aehu.es" <info@aehu.es>, "info@sakh.se" <info@sakh.se>, "info@hvs.ch" <= ;info@hvs.ch>, "info@a-r-h.org" <info@a-r-h.org>, "= info@the-hma.org" <info@the-hma.org>, "info@homeopathy-soh.= org" <info@homeopathy-soh.org>, "pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com&q= uot; <pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com>, "beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com= " <beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com>, "benefits.application@ssa.gov= " <benefits.application@ssa.gov>, "srszsi@gmail.com" &= lt;srszsi@gmail.com>, "anrc@zsi.gov.in" <anrc@zsi.gov.in>= ;, "nrc@zsi.gov.in" <nrc@zsi.gov.in>, "hr@harbin.org&q= uot; <hr@harbin.org>, "info@olt.org" <info@olt.org>, "head.customercare@citi.com" <head.cust= omercare@citi.com>, "info@jennervacationrentals.com" <info@= jennervacationrentals.com>, "info@kinoyoga.com" <info@kinoy= oga.com>, "Geneveive.jopanda@treasurer.ca.gov" <Geneveive.j= opanda@treasurer.ca.gov>, "dtocbe@nic.in" <dtocbe@nic.in>, "agaekarnataka@cag.g= ov" <agaekarnataka@cag.gov>, "Contactcentre@sbi.co.in"= <Contactcentre@sbi.co.in>, "lorrett@fantasymakers.com" <= ;lorrett@fantasymakers.com>, "Care@jio.com" <Care@jio.com&g= t;, "gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov" <gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov>, SPMC PHQ <spmcphq.pol@kerala.gov.in>, "PHQ.pol@kerala.gov.in&qu= ot; <PHQ.pol@kerala.gov.in>, "igadm@crpf.gov.in" <igadm@= crpf.gov.in>, "president@whitehouse.gov" <president@whiteho= use.gov>, "Kumaarj5@Gmail.com" <Kumaarj5@Gmail.com>, &qu= ot;Mumbaif@state.gov" <Mumbaif@state.gov>, "Megan@yogaworks.com" <Megan@yogaworks.com>
Sent: Mon, 01 Jul 2019 12:23
Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing

Hello
These are the events that again made me very disturbed.
I tweeted in @pradeepxplorer1 that i was in a long beach hotel cabin with s= ee through glasses
that i can see from inside but from outside they cannot see me..I was in a = double room with double bed
that i paid 3000Rs and i was all alone and i did not have a girl frend or w= oman to enjoy the beach and evening
and i posted in my website this is 2010 december past 20th i think and i ha= d explodingmoon.org only
dhyanayoga.info was not available for registration and i recieved an email = from bkvarma88@hotmail.com that my mother got hospitalised and i am worried= if balan or sridhar or bharat or their connections attacked her. I had to = call from
phone and my mother was admitted for second umbilical hernia operation i su= spect sirdhar and bharat was in touch
and i suspect all of those are criminals claiming money from me using sindh= u and has some control over
some funds or stealing my subscribers help using my domains claiming i am w= ealthy as Ex sun employee.
After that tweet saraal entered the hospital and i started getting disturbe= d as she is not there to just visit
but to ensure my mother is food poisoned or eat what she brings and they ca= n do anything. My mother was food
poisoned by shylaja resulting in her eating very very less food,, one idli = in morning and one glass of rice water for lunch and
one glass of milk for dinner, she lost ten kilogram and sensing that i trie= d to eat her my kind of food and balan
attacked me. Balan has attacked me inside govt homoe kalpathy hospital and = also inside sai hospital yesterday.
My mothers life would be in danger as she is already weak if she is shifted= back to rohinivilla. Kunjikav teacher
my mothers colleague came and visited her and with her was some bsnl staff = jayakumar. It would be best if they
can relocate to her a room somewhere there. I am willing to travel with her= to US airport and fly out
with the help of US embassy chennai. I again assertively declare i am sole = owner author authority or dhyanayoga.info
explodingmoon.org pradeepkumarxplorer.com and that money and fact is suffic= ient for me to live in USA
with US citizenship with my mother or whatever status. Its not acceptible t= his case dispute uncertainty indecision continued another day. It would lea= d to my mothers death. The local police in akathethara is partner to this c= rime
as they have partnered with attacking and hospitalising me after SUN was so= ld to ORACLE and even now
 not acknowledging me as author owner of websites dhyanayoga.info expl= odingmoon.org pradeepkumarxplorer.com

This is what happened after sarala entered hospital (sai hospital room 20 o= lavakkode palakkad)
She kept on asking her to drink ensure
I reported that she should not give her ensure.. My mother had vomitted it = the day before she fell
down.
I am certain there was food poison
I am certain the congi shylaja sends is low grade or with food poison
I am certain Balan Kannan Sridhar two sons would not admit that they attack= ed me and would continue to attack me
and do things to extort cash from my mother.
I am sure they are not my wellwishers and trying to murder me and my mother= . Sarala and shylaja are partners to it.
Bharat indira are also partners to it.

If they are taking money paid to me its a very cruel crime that cannot be f= orgiven.
Sarala started fighting with me and threatened me she would call someone to= attack me and called sridhar shylesh
and when doctor entered i mentioned the ensure had food poison and should n= ot be given to my mother or the congi
and the doctor agreed when i talked to him objectively. I then made horlick= s with hotwater. My mother had to be discharged to a different room with he= lp of kunjikavu or anyone like that i should get a solution to take her to = the airport and with help of uS embassies fly back to USa and get money/employment and lead my life.

Sridhar and two sons Balan kannan has attacked me and still i have to see t= hem. yesterday balan and shylesh tried to attack me.
shankaravarmas wife objected to me not changing pants.

I also mentioned bluehost.com is not changing registrant contact of three d= omains to +91.6238940417.
Please free the suspects accounts so that they dont have money to continue = this crime against me and my mother
I am writing from ayyappa travels and i am just a customer here.

Pradeep Kumar Xplorer
+91.6238940417


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Tue, 9 Jul 2019 08:57:11 +0000 Received: from MAXPR01MB2304.INDPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (10.152.248.54) by HK2APC01FT042.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.249.66) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.2052.18 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 08:57:11 +0000 Received: from MAXPR01MB2304.INDPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::ac37:bfe6:a0bb:ea27]) by MAXPR01MB2304.INDPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::ac37:bfe6:a0bb:ea27%5]) with mapi id 15.20.2052.020; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 08:57:11 +0000 From: pradeep xplorer To: "art@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly towards executing me and my mother continuing Thread-Index: AdUxf4oTaIsSPmjrOkKGbXEvkK98QgAWyTLlAFOqVHQAM2/ivQAllKq6ADUeMvUAFaRiCwAYd7e3AAVVL2gAAEAg5QAAx6zp Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 08:57:11 +0000 Message-ID: References: , <21d4503f-a5ca-4e36-bda8-c467af7b05de.maildroid@localhost>, , , , , , , , , , , , , , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:3585018DCCB3C71325D3E92E0C1EAD5CDF15CC2B54A829EFD58B273A21965886; 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am soeone whose civil rights has been violated for 18 years and my mother= is a victim. I need to be able to look after my mother take her to califor= nia with me as an old disabled who needs healing. I am not even able to rel= ocate her to a hospitable room.I speak for her she is a victim of medical c= ruelty and malnutrition. I have been filing reports since 2012 after the th= ieves deported me from sanfrancisco bayarea and forced me to stay in chepil= amuri with her. Right now i called her and theres no voice on the other end= . I rented a room in happy lodge for three days and i was not able to reloc= ate her. SHe is harmed by allopathic doctors too much. She would join me if= i have funds in my ATM or bank. Instead i am forced to apply for kerala pe= nsion disability with partial name Pradeep Kumar. The money held worldwide = in my name Pradeep Kumar Xplorer is not given to me and thats the crime to = end. ________________________________ From: pradeep xplorer Sent: Tuesday, July 9, 2019 2:02 PM To: studentservices@int-comp.org Subject: Fw: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing Hello i need payment enforcement and separation of my mother from my cousin= s so i can look after her and separation of myself from cousins. I am a bay= area california resident unable to return there because of this internation= al crime using my domains dhyanayoga.info explodingmoon.org pradeepkumarxpl= orer.com ________________________________ From: pradeep xplorer Sent: Tuesday, July 9, 2019 1:54 PM To: art@ietf.org Subject: Fw: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing ________________________________ From: pradeep xplorer Sent: Tuesday, July 9, 2019 11:39 AM To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac= .in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1 Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrublof= f.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov= ; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; larrypage@google.com; larry.e= llison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@yogaworks.com; info@agamayo= ga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; = sumbody@sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.go= v; alerts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opporti= llo@globeacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtr= a.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeopathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.co= m; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyoz.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@j= phma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora= @seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; inf= o@homeopathy-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; em= imila@hotmail.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeop= atia.roman@wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-= asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; info@a-r-h.org; info= @th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com; beyoutifu= llivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srszsi@gmail.com; anrc= @zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare= @citi.com; info@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jop= anda@treasurer.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@= sbi.co.in; lorrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov= ; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.in; president@whitehouse= .gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@yogaworks.com; johnjohna= ssociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Guestservices@himalayaninsti= tute.org; spplkd.pol@kerala.gov.in; iucg@ietf.org Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing I am writing from mall in palakkad that has a jobys mall that I have used b= efore. I entered old pulappatta house and sRidhar and Sarala again objected= to me giving her bottle water. I am sensing organised activity knowing whe= re I am and disturbing me. When I exited bus in akathethara senthil the au= to driver was in the busstop and messaged someone. Prabhakara varmas daught= er meena walked past. I entered and she requested me to give water I gave f= rom the red pet bottle I tested it too it was chukku vellam and i did not f= eel good. When I suggested I buy bottle water sRidhar threatened me to thro= w away all bottles I bring. SRidhar again verbally attacked me. I have to b= e able to take her for an ayurveda vasti if possible. Because of sRidhar an= d balan my mother is down in bed. She was underfed and food poisoned in sh= ylajas place and she fell down and hurt her head and before her knees. I am= now relieved that i have not seen balan shylaja rohini durga and I am worr= ied the criminals have organised hareRama harekrishna in chepilamuri that I= was forced to see when I returned by bus. Yesterday the FBI fought with me= obviously some criminals following my tweets are calling them. The law e= nforcers are negligent and prevented me having any income last 17 years and= still allowing the organisation to continue criminal ways. I could not off= er a few sips of appy fizz juice as soon as I opened it my mother protested= and informed me sRidhar and Sarala would Fight if she drinks it. I again state this is serious crime using large value of money taken from s= unw market cap and using my websites as vehicles for its investment 65 bill= ion us dollars in 2007. They are calling me wealthy and trying to kill me. I had to beg in Delhi fo= r food money and sleep in mountains of palakkad in 2015. There's no public = record of use of my websites it's theft by many authorities and who are now= trying to kill me and my mother. I have a right to look after my mother and break up with my mother. It's s= uspect economic activity in temples of akathethara esp durga temple chepila= muri I see many houses worth above 50000000rs but me and my mother are home= less with expired address in identity documents Please help enforce my separation from cousins and that I can take care of = my old mother and end of cybercrime using my websites Pradeep kumar xplorer ________________________________ From: pradeep xplorer Sent: Monday, July 8, 2019 11:46:59 PM To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac= .in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1 Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrublof= f.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov= ; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; larrypage@google.com; larry.e= llison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@yogaworks.com; info@agamayo= ga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; = sumbody@sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.go= v; alerts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opporti= llo@globeacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtr= a.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeopathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.co= m; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyoz.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@j= phma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora= @seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; inf= o@homeopathy-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; em= imila@hotmail.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeop= atia.roman@wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-= asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; info@a-r-h.org; info= @th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com; beyoutifu= llivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srszsi@gmail.com; anrc= @zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare= @citi.com; info@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jop= anda@treasurer.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@= sbi.co.in; lorrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov= ; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.in; president@whitehouse= .gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@yogaworks.com; johnjohna= ssociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Guestservices@himalayaninsti= tute.org; spplkd.pol@kerala.gov.in; iucg@ietf.org Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing I could not relocate my mother to a double room. Arya vaidya pharmacy has= recommended vasti to her. I sense a danger to her as sRidhar again tried = to fight with me in evening. I am in the lodge that won't be available for = next three days. There has to be payment enforcement to me and not distabi= lity pension. I object to this exploitation continuing using my domains. P= lease ensure my mother is safe and sRidhar won't attack Me in morning. The = FBI has not enforced payment and someone victor guevara is not logical and = fought with me Pradeep kumar xplorer ________________________________ From: pradeep xplorer Sent: Monday, July 8, 2019 1:27:42 PM To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac= .in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1 Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrublof= f.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov= ; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; larrypage@google.com; larry.e= llison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@yogaworks.com; info@agamayo= ga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; = sumbody@sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.go= v; alerts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opporti= llo@globeacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtr= a.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeopathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.co= m; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyoz.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@j= phma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora= @seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; inf= o@homeopathy-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; em= imila@hotmail.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeop= atia.roman@wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-= asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; info@a-r-h.org; info= @th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com; beyoutifu= llivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srszsi@gmail.com; anrc= @zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare= @citi.com; info@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jop= anda@treasurer.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@= sbi.co.in; lorrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov= ; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.in; president@whitehouse= .gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@yogaworks.com; johnjohna= ssociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Guestservices@himalayaninsti= tute.org; spplkd.pol@kerala.gov.in; cihbngrpkd.pol@kerala.gov.in; iucg@ietf= .org Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing This is OLX Mobiles number.. I have a dispute with them. They did not fix m= y samsung J2 and extorted 1600rs from me when i am in danger zone with too = little cash. The android is not working.. Theres a small crack on display. = It had a blue covering when i picked it up. I removed it day before yesterd= ay and there was a crack. I managed to get 8000Rs from my mother. I helped = her use bedpan and could remove again ten grams of faeces.. Her anus is clo= gged. May be she would accept an enema from me tomorrow but at the same tim= e i am unhappy she is stuck in that place and the variabales for the crime = are too much. I am saying my money is expended by palakkad raj or some orga= nisation without any fear and they want me dead.. The man now in OLX mobiles opposite chennai mobiles in Post office junction= palakkad was very rude. This is the number displayed. OLX Mobiles +91.7756= 364676 VK shankaravarma has entered pulappatta house after i helped my mother use = bedpan. I dont like this prolonged. I have a temporary solution. Morning i ate idli= in Indraprastha but they poisoned me in coffee and i have heart congestion= . I have to get a 4G device to use my JIO sim. A shop has agreed to take it f= or 1000Rs and give something else for their price. The 4G J4 they are askin= g 4800 so i have to give 3800Rs thats too much. I said to take it for 3000R= s. I am poor now because of crime continuing. I am without woman or any lif= e and unable to rescue my mother from harmful custody by cousins Pradeep Kumar XPlorer +91.6238940417 ________________________________ From: pradeep xplorer Sent: Sunday, July 7, 2019 12:03 PM To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac= .in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1 Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrublof= f.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov= ; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; larrypage@google.com; larry.e= llison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@yogaworks.com; info@agamayo= ga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; = sumbody@sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.go= v; alerts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opporti= llo@globeacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtr= a.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeopathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.co= m; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyoz.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@j= phma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora= @seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; inf= o@homeopathy-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; em= imila@hotmail.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeop= atia.roman@wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-= asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; info@a-r-h.org; info= @th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com; beyoutifu= llivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srszsi@gmail.com; anrc= @zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare= @citi.com; info@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jop= anda@treasurer.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@= sbi.co.in; lorrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov= ; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.in; president@whitehouse= .gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@yogaworks.com; johnjohna= ssociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Guestservices@himalayaninsti= tute.org; spplkd.pol@kerala.gov.in; cihbngrpkd.pol@kerala.gov.in; iucg@ietf= .org Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing My android is not fixed has display problems or OS Problems did not respond= to touch and the parties that repaired it are not working today. I could g= ive only a sip of water to my mother in morning. I have only 550Rs and my m= other need to help me with atleast 8000Rs tomorrow. She has to shift with m= e so she does not lose money to the poor cousins and husbands like sridhar = and balan who are in it for for cybercrime and exploiting me as well. I hav= e expended for her in 90s and 2000s so this is informal arrangement until i= get a solution of end of cybercrime and restoration of life in California. Pradeep Kumar Xplorer ________________________________ From: pradeep xplorer Sent: Saturday, July 6, 2019 6:23 PM To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac= .in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1 Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrublof= f.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov= ; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; larrypage@google.com; larry.e= llison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@yogaworks.com; info@agamayo= ga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; = sumbody@sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.go= v; alerts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opporti= llo@globeacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtr= a.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeopathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.co= m; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyoz.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@j= phma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora= @seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; inf= o@homeopathy-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; em= imila@hotmail.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeop= atia.roman@wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-= asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; info@a-r-h.org; info= @th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com; beyoutifu= llivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srszsi@gmail.com; anrc= @zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare= @citi.com; info@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jop= anda@treasurer.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@= sbi.co.in; lorrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov= ; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.in; president@whitehouse= .gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@yogaworks.com; johnjohna= ssociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Guestservices@himalayaninsti= tute.org; spplkd.pol@kerala.gov.in; cihbngrpkd.pol@kerala.gov.in Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing I entered oldpulappatta house and when enquiring where is the icecream ball= i bought for my mother sridhar verbally attacked me and tried to provoke m= e into a fight. he says he would not allow me to give anything to her or lo= ok after her. I noticed he has extorted some cash to buy her a bedpan and t= o prevent me helping her use the chair stool. I was attacked by sridhar and two sons in Nov 2013 and hospitalised and har= med and i have complained to palakkad district police. I have now a room in= palakkad for 400rs where if they did not object i would have relocated her= . My mothers life is in danger and she has alerady been harmed and drugged = and underfed by sridhar and balan. These prevented me renting in mettupalay= am in end of 2017 and attacked and hospitalised and injured my yoga body. S= ridhar is a criminal medical representative and me and my mother are his vi= ctims. I am a Thai spa yoga class being and i was harmed four times after S= UN was sold to ORACLE. Theres an organisation employed using my websites expending money i should = have expended for my personal life in MountainView California in 2004. They have destroyed my immigration status in USA and preventing me getting = any income funds employment in India and attacked and harmed me. They prevented me from marrying another woman after i broke up with amy rai= nier starkey in April 2001 and used a dead sindhu issue to extort 800000Rs = from my citigold account in bangalore in Aug 2003. Again i suspect they did= not allow sindhu to enjoy it and extorted and build the house in chepilamu= ri. Balan and sridhar have partnered with an organisation exploiting me and slo= wly killing me and my mother. My mother would not have had knee surgery if = she was with me. They underfed her and she fell down and even after knee su= rgery they underfed her and made her fall and injure her head. Its as if ba= lan and sridhar has hurt her head with an axe. I could have discharged her = from sai hospital to a double room instead she is now inside old pulappatta house and they are getting some ca= sh and sometimes food poisoning her. I was prevented from breaking up with = her in 2004 when i should have been reemployed and married to someone else = like amy and i would have fathered children. This is an organised crime exp= loiting use of surname pulappatta and thats an old house that should have b= een dismantled decades ago. Whoever employed world wide using my websites a= re thieves and trying to kill my mother and me. I have no clue why CI of he= mambika nagar is not negotiating me separated from cousins and my mother un= der my care so i can solve my US situation and relocate back. I have only 7= 00Rs and my mother could be used to attack me when i would ask for 10000Rs = day after tomorrow. The informal agreement between me and my mother is she = helping me by 500Rs as i have expended money for her when sun employed and = treated her well in usa for a year and also paid her money. I again suspect sindhu was used to extort 800000Rs from my citigold account= to exploit me and my website publishing and not pay me my money to setttle= in bayarea. Then they created situation where sun was sold to oracle and h= ad me attacked and sindhu married to someone and kannan married rohini. I r= eported to udit chaithanya her life is in danger he ignored now my mother h= as a head wound so i suspect them as well. ANyway its a risk for me being in pulappatta house and my mother should be = with me and the cousins should not bother me. This has to be enforced by lo= cal law enforcement because sridhar is preventing me shifting with her. I = suspect if the 175000Rs she had in SBI was stolen or in an fixed deposit. Please help end this situation Pradeep Kumar Xplorer ________________________________ From: pradeep xplorer Sent: Friday, July 5, 2019 5:56 PM To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac= .in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1 Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrublof= f.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov= ; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; larrypage@google.com; larry.e= llison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@yogaworks.com; info@agamayo= ga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; = sumbody@sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.go= v; alerts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opporti= llo@globeacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtr= a.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeopathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.co= m; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyoz.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@j= phma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora= @seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; inf= o@homeopathy-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; em= imila@hotmail.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeop= atia.roman@wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-= asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; info@a-r-h.org; info= @th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com; beyoutifu= llivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srszsi@gmail.com; anrc= @zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare= @citi.com; info@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jop= anda@treasurer.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@= sbi.co.in; lorrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov= ; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.in; president@whitehouse= .gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@yogaworks.com; johnjohna= ssociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Guestservices@himalayaninsti= tute.org; Police@mountainview.gov Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing These are the events of the day I reported my situation and medical cruelty suffered by my mother to FBI, M= ountainView police, USDOJ, Executive office of immigration review and many = others in this list. Today morning while resting in ashirvad lodge i kept my mobile for charging= and it fell down and display was damaged. I dont know if it was trembled artificially. I we= nt to shop that i purchased it and they wanted 1800Rs. I had only 2200Rs. I went to pulappatta house. Ammini relative of mathrubhumi founder kp kesav= amenon was present After my mother ate lunch she signed 10000Rs for me. She was saying theres = only 3000Rs in it. She did not say who she asked to Create Fixed deposit. I went to malampuzha road SBI and they did not honor the cheque claiming si= gnature mismatch. I suspect who encashed the 100000rs from 275000rs account. They asked me to= get a letter signed by my mother that this is her current signature. I wen= t to the house and sridhar tried to fight with me. Thats a criminal not pun= ished by law enforcement and still used to attack me. Sridhar and two sons = have attacked me in nov 2013 and i reported to palakkad police and nothin= g has been done. So he still attacks me. After attacking me in nov 2013 hi = two sons got employed. I suspect Sridhar and sons must have attacked my mot= her as well. The two sons look well fed like fighters. Sridhar tried to att= ack me when exiting also and autodriver farooq saw it. I suspect sarala has= food poisoned her also. Her vital energy is less. Sridhar is a criminal th= at has harmed my mother using hospitals and harmed me also using allopathic= hospitals and getting away with it. Because of the Sridhar sarala shylaja = balan i am not able to heal my mother give her an enema or massage or heal = her by health food and i accuse them as being allowed to slowly kill my mot= her and they would kill me too. Sridhar threatened me that i should not sta= y anywhere and sleep there. Sridhar and the BJP RSS are criminals that has = prevented me marrying anyone using a sindhu issue and all of them need to b= e executed. They want all my money as ancestral wealth. Sridhar informed me= he would attack me wherever i am if i dont go to that house and sridhar ba= lan and many criminals are allowed to interact with my mother and believe i= am a disabled and used her to attack me. Today evening my life is in dange= r. Its an organisation of executable shameless thieves calling me poor by a= llowing many criminals like sridhar to prevent the old pulappatta house bei= ng disposed and to prove i am poor who was born there or something. Its because of VK sushllkumar and his childrens poverty that house is not d= isposed.Sridhar also threatened me that if i dont show up they would move m= y mother to an unknown location where i would never meet her. They want all of my money as KP Visalakshies wealth and steal it. They star= ted the shaktheyam movement to steal my money using her and a sindhu issue = and prevented sale of leela vilas and created a durga temple and stealing m= oney. I suspect Sridhar and balan and many criminals must have held my moth= er hostage and prevented me meeting with her when i was back from rishikesh= and then cruelly detained me in bethsada hospital and is unforgivable. I s= uspect her leg fracture is because of being attacked and malnutrition and f= ood poison. shylaja balan sridhar sarala need to be prosecuted to end medic= al cruelty against my mother and me. After getting the letter the bank foun= d she had only 3000Rs and send a man to get a fingerprint and she gave me o= nly 2000Rs. Sridhar did not try and attack me in front of that man. I expre= ssed i am an SBI customer who lost some money to SBI account holders and = SBI has not returned it thats why i shouted at them. I am worried that my m= other has been held hostage in 2015 and she has been cruelly treated and sh= e has deep fear thats why i am not able to get her consent to solve the cri= me. I suspect balan must have had some device to make her fall or something= first time. Second time she fell down because of malnutrition. malabarhosp= itals has to be invetsigated if it is giving money to sridhar or employing = anyone related to sridhar balan etc. Sridhar has attacked me and would attack me again. That house has to be sol= d and some money given to my mother and if they think they owe me money to = me also. I dont owe them any money and if my money has been used to help th= em its theft. many like sridhar are preventing me being married and fatheri= ng a child and trying to execute me using palakkad raj saga and spicing it= with stories like krakatao Please help Pradeep Kumar Xplorer ________________________________ From: pradeep xplorer Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2019 5:55 AM To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac= .in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1 Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrublof= f.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov= ; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; larrypage@google.com; larry.e= llison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@yogaworks.com; info@agamayo= ga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; = sumbody@sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.go= v; alerts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opporti= llo@globeacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtr= a.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeopathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.co= m; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyoz.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@j= phma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora= @seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; inf= o@homeopathy-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; em= imila@hotmail.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeop= atia.roman@wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-= asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; info@a-r-h.org; info= @th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com; beyoutifu= llivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srszsi@gmail.com; anrc= @zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare= @citi.com; info@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jop= anda@treasurer.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@= sbi.co.in; lorrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov= ; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.in; president@whitehouse= .gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@yogaworks.com; johnjohna= ssociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Guestservices@himalayaninsti= tute.org; Police@mountainview.gov Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing I am writing this from a double bedroom in aiswarya lodge one past namaskar= lodge in ksrtc busstand area. I entered old pulappatta house and i have tw= eeted the photos. It's an old house and not really inhabitable. I spend abo= ut half an hour there. My mother is inside a room again in some sort of kha= Di bed I observed these.. Sarala did not let me give bottle water.. when it opened some aquachill wat= er she took some water she has made like chukku vellam and gave it to her. = I bought some rheumaheal ointment and massaged her leg. Fbi has directed me= to call usa dept of state. So she is with sridhar and sarala and whatever = they give as food would enter her body. It's like very dirty house to me wi= th newer buildings all around. My mother asked me to go to rohinivilla and = sleep up that's not acceptible to me. In dialed her at about 130 am and she= has not picked up. She must have been fed congi in evening. When i was the= re sarala gave her horlicks and is took a sip. My stomach did not like it i= nstantly and is have a slight skin problem in right feet. Thats the old hou= se weLl water entering her body. I am posting photos of my current room in = my tweets right now Pradeep kumar xplorer ________________________________ From: pradeep xplorer Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2019 2:43:12 PM To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac= .in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1 Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrublof= f.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov= ; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; larrypage@google.com; larry.e= llison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@yogaworks.com; info@agamayo= ga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; = sumbody@sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.go= v; alerts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opporti= llo@globeacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtr= a.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeopathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.co= m; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyoz.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@j= phma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora= @seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; inf= o@homeopathy-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; em= imila@hotmail.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeop= atia.roman@wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-= asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; info@a-r-h.org; info= @th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com; beyoutifu= llivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srszsi@gmail.com; anrc= @zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare= @citi.com; info@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jop= anda@treasurer.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@= sbi.co.in; lorrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov= ; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.in; president@whitehouse= .gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@yogaworks.com; johnjohna= ssociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Guestservices@himalayaninsti= tute.org; Police@mountainview.gov Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing Despite my persistence because of selfish interests of sarala sridhar shyle= sh balan shylaja and all related to them my mother is in old pulappatta house. My phone stopped charging. They are d= escendants of late VK sushil kumar and not letting me go. I am worried about her being food poison and druggin= g and future hospitalisation. I have 8000Rs room and i can heal my mother and deal with other things. When i called my mothe= r the phone was switched off and when i called sarala my mother picked up p= hone. I have no home and just 4300rs now. My mother should give me 20000Rs tomorrow and i can take care of her in the= room near KSRTC busstand with clean restrooms and bed to rest. She needs t= o eat hop to a stool.. helped to change diapers and with health food and dr= inks her knees would heal.Meanwhile i can pursue my interests of relocating to calif= ornia and my website Please help that this is enforced. Pradeep Kumar Xplorer ________________________________ From: pradeep xplorer Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2019 11:52 AM To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac= .in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1 Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrublof= f.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov= ; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; larrypage@google.com; larry.e= llison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@yogaworks.com; info@agamayo= ga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; = sumbody@sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.go= v; alerts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opporti= llo@globeacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtr= a.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeopathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.co= m; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyoz.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@j= phma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora= @seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; inf= o@homeopathy-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; em= imila@hotmail.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeop= atia.roman@wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-= asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; info@a-r-h.org; info= @th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com; beyoutifu= llivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srszsi@gmail.com; anrc= @zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare= @citi.com; info@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jop= anda@treasurer.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@= sbi.co.in; lorrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov= ; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.in; president@whitehouse= .gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@yogaworks.com; johnjohna= ssociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Guestservices@himalayaninsti= tute.org; Police@mountainview.gov Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing Please enforce that my motehr is not discharged to old pulappatta or rohini= villa as it would result in more harm and her death. I can 24/7 take care o= f her for a month in a double bed room in ksrtc area namaskar lodge where w= e both have stayed before.I am going to take a look at the room now. The co= usins are problematic and depending on her and me and surname and it need t= o be ended. Its extreme civil rights abuse for me not being able to separat= e from the cousins that too that has attacked me and my mother as well. I am writing this from ayappa travels.. I am charging my mobile now. My mother wont get good food and would collapse from food poisoning if take= n care by sarala sridhar balan shylaja or shylesh. They are criminals intruding 24/7 and not selling old pulappatta house also I have reported to palakkad police i have been attacked by sridhar and sons= and balan and kannan. So why is this continuing. Pradeep Kumar Xplorer ________________________________ From: pradeep xplorer Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2019 8:55 AM To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac= .in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1 Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrublof= f.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov= ; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; larrypage@google.com; larry.e= llison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@yogaworks.com; info@agamayo= ga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; = sumbody@sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.go= v; alerts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opporti= llo@globeacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtr= a.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeopathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.co= m; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyoz.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@j= phma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora= @seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; inf= o@homeopathy-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; em= imila@hotmail.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeop= atia.roman@wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-= asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; info@a-r-h.org; info= @th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com; beyoutifu= llivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srszsi@gmail.com; anrc= @zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare= @citi.com; info@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jop= anda@treasurer.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@= sbi.co.in; lorrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov= ; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.in; president@whitehouse= .gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@yogaworks.com; johnjohna= ssociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Guestservices@himalayaninsti= tute.org; Police@mountainview.gov Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing I ate upma and fried egg from indian coffee house. I packed upma as it was = healthy good quality. I took an auto to make sure it enters my mothers body= . The criminals sridhar and sarala prevented it by sending a wheat dosa put= rid I spat out after one bite. My mother also made some sound eating it . I= gave her upma without chutney or Sambar and still she complained because o= f them sending dosa. My mother complained the upma is spicy or hot or chill= y but it did not have chilly and it was not hot. Sara the disturbed me givi= ng food by saying eat drugs. The upma was finally consumed by sharat. Shara= t should say yes to my request for help and shift her to double room. Inste= ad I am worried he thinks me and my mother killed his father. Sridhar saral= a shylaja balan kannan sridhars two sons are dangerous criminals to me that= has already managed to harm me and my mother and inflict too much cruelty = on both of us.. it has to be enforced for her safety that she is separated = from them and i am separated from them so I can take care of her and reloca= te. I gave letter that John george gave to Hemambika nagar police station. It's dangerous for my mother to be shifted to rohinivilla or pulappatta hou= se they would underfed her food poison her prevent me taking care of her an= d repeatedly put her under care of allopathic hospitals until she is dead. = My mother should be healed and made assertive and made to enjoy life and ch= ose holistic healing modalities Pradeep kumar xplorer 91.6238940417 ________________________________ From: pradeep xplorer Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2019 7:49:36 AM To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac= .in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1 Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrublof= f.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov= ; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; larrypage@google.com; larry.e= llison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@yogaworks.com; info@agamayo= ga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; = sumbody@sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.go= v; alerts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opporti= llo@globeacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtr= a.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeopathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.co= m; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyoz.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@j= phma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora= @seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; inf= o@homeopathy-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; em= imila@hotmail.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeop= atia.roman@wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-= asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; info@a-r-h.org; info= @th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com; beyoutifu= llivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srszsi@gmail.com; anrc= @zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare= @citi.com; info@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jop= anda@treasurer.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@= sbi.co.in; lorrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov= ; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.in; president@whitehouse= .gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@yogaworks.com; johnjohna= ssociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Guestservices@himalayaninsti= tute.org Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing I have given the letter written by shameera from John George's office to he= mambika nagar police. My mother should not Ingest anything made by shylaja = or their ensure congi milk and for that matter anyone food by cousins. I wa= nt to prevent further injuries and danger to her life she be discharged fro= m sai hospital to a double room in namaskar lodge for a month for 8000rs wh= ich is only 3000rs and it be enforced that she be dedrugged and given a cho= ice to chose treatment modality of ayurveda homoeo or spa yoga massage clas= s or naturopathy any thing other than allopathic. Sridhar and balan are dan= gerous that has harmed me and my mother using doctors and trying to execute= us Pradeep kumar xplorer 91.6238940417 ________________________________ From: pradeep xplorer Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 5:35:33 PM To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac= .in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1 Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrublof= f.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov= ; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; larrypage@google.com; larry.e= llison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@yogaworks.com; info@agamayo= ga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; = sumbody@sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.go= v; alerts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opporti= llo@globeacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtr= a.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeopathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.co= m; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyoz.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@j= phma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora= @seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; inf= o@homeopathy-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; em= imila@hotmail.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeop= atia.roman@wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-= asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; info@a-r-h.org; info= @th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com; beyoutifu= llivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srszsi@gmail.com; anrc= @zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare= @citi.com; info@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jop= anda@treasurer.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@= sbi.co.in; lorrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov= ; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.in; president@whitehouse= .gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@yogaworks.com Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing Balan entered here and tried to attack me saying i did not change my dress.= They are trying to food poison my mother. I am a person who washes clothes= and use them i use only one pair. I washed my tshirt and underwear and kha= ki pants is OK. They are now preventing me from giving the tender coconut. = Balan is a criminal trying to execute my mother and suspect behind this cri= me. My mother is again given saline. I have contacted the local authorities= of akathethara 91.491.2555208 they should charge balan for injuring my mot= hers head by underfeeding her. Balan sarala sridhar shylaja are the crimina= ls. My mothers body cannot be a quality testing ground. They are hovering o= ver her and i dont like it. I am an adult who does not have to see any of t= hese. In addition if these extorted the money I paid to sindhu in 2003 it i= s a major crime in which sindhu also might have been injured by these. Thes= e have prevented me from giving her tender coconut. I have cared for my mot= her and treated her for a year in mountianview using my income. And she wan= ted me here. So she did not keep tabs and helping me.these are preventing m= e being helped by her.i have no idea who has taken my money or why i cannot= have an income from yoga and software. Please request kunjikavu to appear = and help my mother to bsnl quarters some room. My mother would die if fed b= y them. Sarala and balan are criminals now claiming I am harming her or som= ething. These are shameless criminals promoted by some international crimin= al organisation using a surname usage and thieves Pradeep kumar xplorer ________________________________ From: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 4:56:37 PM To: rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilatesAssociation@gmail.com; = info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpol@vsnl.com; info@qatarair= ways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns.gov.in; press@interpol.i= nt; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac.in; supremecourt@nic.in;= mukundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1; pradeep xplorer Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrublof= f.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov= ; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; larrypage@google.com; larry.e= llison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@yogaworks.com; info@agamayo= ga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; = sumbody@sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.go= v; alerts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opporti= llo@globeacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtr= a.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeopathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.co= m; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyoz.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@j= phma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora= @seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; inf= o@homeopathy-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; em= imila@hotmail.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeop= atia.roman@wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-= asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; info@a-r-h.org; info= @th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com; beyoutifu= llivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srszsi@gmail.com; anrc= @zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare= @citi.com; info@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jop= anda@treasurer.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@= sbi.co.in; lorrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov= ; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.in; president@whitehouse= .gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@yogaworks.com Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing I managed to avoid food poison or anything from shylaja for my mother by be= ing here i gave her chai from down and idli from down and prevented sarala = from giving ensure. I talked to the spectacled doctor and my mother agreed = to drink horlicks with hot water. But i had to fight with sarala . I suspec= t they are having an income by maintaining the old pulappatta house which i= s like the only common wealth .. I owe nothing from pradeep kumar pulappatt= a accounts or pradeep kumar xplorer accounts to them. I left to avoid them = and i dont know what sarala gave. She vomited some time earlier I am trilli= on times certain she won't vomit anything if she is in kaliappa hotel or al= athur hotel in a room under my care so this is crime by local law enforcers= in akathethara hemambika nagar police station or whoever keeping my money = as common wealth. It could be a planned attack by sarala and shylesh who to= me are poor because they created children and i dont have even one. It's a= crime that mountain view police is unable to help or not helping or the us= embassies not enforcing and continuing harm to me and my mother. I do not = want any of vk sushilkumar and kp saradas children or their connections giv= ing anything to my mother as i suspect they may want to execute her. There = cannot be any room for chance. This has to be enforced at the level I am r= eporting Pradeep kumar xplorer Sent from MailDroid -----Original Message----- From: pradeep xplorer To: "pradeep@dhyanayoga.info" , "rwalker@scscourt.= org" , "icann@icann.org" , "USPilate= sAssociation@gmail.com" , "info@pilates.org= .au" , "office@brietenbush.com" , "delpol@vsnl.com" , "info@qatarairways.qa" , "directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in" ,= "dgp@tncctns.gov.in" , "press@interpol.int" , "info@archive.org" , "rkumar.kpm@nic.in" , "sasi@cdac.in" , "supremecourt@nic.in" , "mukundram2007@gmail.com" , IMB = Recipient 1 Cc: "scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil" = , "ladyofmanynames@gmail.com" , "ardenfire@yahoo= .com" , "sovereignamber@hotmail.com" , "fmcreative@fantasymakers.com" ,= "oig.hotline@ssa.gov" , "ssa.comments@ssa.gov" , "efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com" , "ehc@lighthouse-sf.org" , "rajik= .sharma@hdfcbank.com" , "dwestergreen@koenigrubl= off.com" , "amy@amytanathorn.com" , "amyji2@gmail.com" , "dmvmediarelations@dm= v.ca.gov" , "zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com" , "scottm@wayin.com" , "larrypage@goo= gle.com" , "larry.ellison@oracle.com" , "info@yogaalliance.org" , "info@yogawor= ks.com" , "info@agamayoga.com" , "m= ail@ashtangayoga.info" , "hilaryacer@gmail.com" , "info@yogasource.com" , "sumbody@= sumbody.com" , "askvisa@visa.com" , = "askvisausa@visa.com" , "askdoj@usdoj.gov" , "alerts@wellsfargo.com" , "john.c.gerspach@= citi.com" , "deptc@jcap.com" , "o= pportillo@globeacceptance.com" , "abuse@cha= se.com" , "pao.eoir@usdoj.gov" , "admi= nnzch@xtra.co.nz" , "chcadmin@comcast.net" , "info@homeopathyhongkong.org" , = "nashinfo@aol.com" , "ocharmenia@mail.com" , "admin@homeopathyoz.org" , "accueil@sphq.o= rg" , "office@jphma.org" , "info@ligaho= meopatica.be" , "bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com" , "homeopat.komora@seznam.cz" ,= "dskh@homeopati.dk" , "toimisto@homeopaatit.fi" , "office@vkhd.de" , "info@homeopathy-gre= ece.gr" , "ishom@eircom.net" ,= "info@corporazioneomeopati.org" , "emimila@= hotmail.com" , "mcutajar@maltanet.net" , "info@nvkh.nl" , "nhl@c2i.net" , "home= opatia.roman@wp.pl" , "aph.lxp@gmail.com" , "homeons@neobee.net" , "rada@homeopaticka-a= sociacia.sk" , "info@aehu.es" , "info@sakh.se" , "info@hvs.ch" , "info@a-r-h.= org" , "info@the-hma.org" , "info@homeopa= thy-soh.org" , "pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com" , "beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com" , "benefits.application@ssa.gov" , = "srszsi@gmail.com" , "anrc@zsi.gov.in" ,= "nrc@zsi.gov.in" , "hr@harbin.org" , "info@= olt.org" , "head.customercare@citi.com" , "info@jennervacationrentals.com" ,= "info@kinoyoga.com" , "Geneveive.jopanda@treasurer.ca.g= ov" , "dtocbe@nic.in" , = "agaekarnataka@cag.gov" , "Contactcentre@sbi.co.in" = , "lorrett@fantasymakers.com" , "Care@jio.com" , "gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov" , SPMC PHQ , "PHQ.pol@kerala.gov= .in" , "igadm@crpf.gov.in" , "pre= sident@whitehouse.gov" , "Kumaarj5@Gmail.com" , "Mumbaif@state.gov" , "Megan@yogawork= s.com" Sent: Mon, 01 Jul 2019 12:23 Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing Hello These are the events that again made me very disturbed. I tweeted in @pradeepxplorer1 that i was in a long beach hotel cabin with s= ee through glasses that i can see from inside but from outside they cannot see me..I was in a = double room with double bed that i paid 3000Rs and i was all alone and i did not have a girl frend or w= oman to enjoy the beach and evening and i posted in my website this is 2010 december past 20th i think and i ha= d explodingmoon.org only dhyanayoga.info was not available for registration and i recieved an email = from bkvarma88@hotmail.com that my mother got hospitalised and i am worried= if balan or sridhar or bharat or their connections attacked her. I had to = call from phone and my mother was admitted for second umbilical hernia operation i su= spect sirdhar and bharat was in touch and i suspect all of those are criminals claiming money from me using sindh= u and has some control over some funds or stealing my subscribers help using my domains claiming i am w= ealthy as Ex sun employee. After that tweet saraal entered the hospital and i started getting disturbe= d as she is not there to just visit but to ensure my mother is food poisoned or eat what she brings and they ca= n do anything. My mother was food poisoned by shylaja resulting in her eating very very less food,, one idli = in morning and one glass of rice water for lunch and one glass of milk for dinner, she lost ten kilogram and sensing that i trie= d to eat her my kind of food and balan attacked me. Balan has attacked me inside govt homoe kalpathy hospital and = also inside sai hospital yesterday. My mothers life would be in danger as she is already weak if she is shifted= back to rohinivilla. Kunjikav teacher my mothers colleague came and visited her and with her was some bsnl staff = jayakumar. It would be best if they can relocate to her a room somewhere there. I am willing to travel with her= to US airport and fly out with the help of US embassy chennai. I again assertively declare i am sole = owner author authority or dhyanayoga.info explodingmoon.org pradeepkumarxplorer.com and that money and fact is suffic= ient for me to live in USA with US citizenship with my mother or whatever status. Its not acceptible t= his case dispute uncertainty indecision continued another day. It would lea= d to my mothers death. The local police in akathethara is partner to this c= rime as they have partnered with attacking and hospitalising me after SUN was so= ld to ORACLE and even now not acknowledging me as author owner of websites dhyanayoga.info exploding= moon.org pradeepkumarxplorer.com This is what happened after sarala entered hospital (sai hospital room 20 o= lavakkode palakkad) She kept on asking her to drink ensure I reported that she should not give her ensure.. My mother had vomitted it = the day before she fell down. I am certain there was food poison I am certain the congi shylaja sends is low grade or with food poison I am certain Balan Kannan Sridhar two sons would not admit that they attack= ed me and would continue to attack me and do things to extort cash from my mother. I am sure they are not my wellwishers and trying to murder me and my mother= . Sarala and shylaja are partners to it. Bharat indira are also partners to it. If they are taking money paid to me its a very cruel crime that cannot be f= orgiven. Sarala started fighting with me and threatened me she would call someone to= attack me and called sridhar shylesh and when doctor entered i mentioned the ensure had food poison and should n= ot be given to my mother or the congi and the doctor agreed when i talked to him objectively. I then made horlick= s with hotwater. My mother had to be discharged to a different room with he= lp of kunjikavu or anyone like that i should get a solution to take her to = the airport and with help of uS embassies fly back to USa and get money/emp= loyment and lead my life. Sridhar and two sons Balan kannan has attacked me and still i have to see t= hem. yesterday balan and shylesh tried to attack me. shankaravarmas wife objected to me not changing pants. I also mentioned bluehost.com is not changing registrant contact of three d= omains to +91.6238940417. Please free the suspects accounts so that they dont have money to continue = this crime against me and my mother I am writing from ayyappa travels and i am just a customer here. Pradeep Kumar Xplorer +91.6238940417 --_000_MAXPR01MB23043A64D0866CBCD31113B2B7F10MAXPR01MB2304INDP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am soeone whose civil rights has been violated for 18 years and my mother= is a victim. I need to be able to look after my mother take her to califor= nia with me as an old disabled who needs healing. I am not even able to rel= ocate her to a hospitable room.I speak for her she is a victim of medical cruelty and malnutrition. I have = been filing reports since 2012 after the thieves deported me from sanfranci= sco bayarea and forced me to stay in chepilamuri with her. Right now i call= ed her and theres no voice on the other end. I rented a room in happy lodge for three days and i was not abl= e to relocate her. SHe is harmed by allopathic doctors too much. She would = join me if i have funds in my ATM or bank. Instead i am forced to apply for= kerala pension disability with partial name Pradeep Kumar. The money held worldwide in my name Pradeep Ku= mar Xplorer is not given to me and thats the crime to end.

From: pradeep xplorer <p= radeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 9, 2019 2:02 PM
To: studentservices@int-comp.org
Subject: Fw: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and= openly towards executing me and my mother continuing
 
Hello i need payment enforcement and separation of my mother from my cousin= s so i can look after her and separation of myself from cousins. I am a bay= area california resident unable to return there because of this internation= al crime using my domains dhyanayoga.info explodingmoon.org pradeepkumarxplorer.com

From: pradeep xplorer <p= radeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 9, 2019 1:54 PM
To: art@ietf.org
Subject: Fw: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and= openly towards executing me and my mother continuing
 


From: pradeep xplorer <p= radeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 9, 2019 11:39 AM
To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; = USPilatesAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com= ; delpol@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@= tncctns.gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac.in; supremecourt@nic.in; mu= kundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1
Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ar= denfire@yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com= ; oig.hotline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representativ= e.com; ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dm= vmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; lar= rypage@google.com; larry.ellison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@y= ogaworks.com; info@agamayoga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; sumbody= @sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.gov; aler= ts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opportillo@glo= beacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeo= pathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.com; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyo= z.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@jphma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_hom= eopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora@seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; info@homeopath= y-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; emimila@hotma= il.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeopatia.roman@= wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; i= nfo@a-r-h.org; info@th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfc= bank.com; beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srs= zsi@gmail.com; anrc@zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare@citi.com; i= nfo@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jopanda@treasur= er.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@sbi.co.in; l= orrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.= in; president@whitehouse.gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@= yogaworks.com; johnjohnassociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Gues= tservices@himalayaninstitute.org; spplkd.pol@kerala.gov.in; iucg@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and= openly towards executing me and my mother continuing
 
I am writing from mall in palakkad that has a jobys mall that I have u= sed before. I entered old pulappatta house and sRidhar and Sarala again obj= ected to me giving her bottle water. I am sensing organised activity knowin= g where I am and disturbing me. When I exited bus in akathethara senthil  the auto driver was in the = busstop and messaged someone. Prabhakara varmas daughter meena walked past.= I entered and she requested me to give water I gave from the red pet bottl= e I tested it too it was chukku vellam and i did not feel good. When I suggested I buy bottle water sRidhar threa= tened me to throw away all bottles I bring. SRidhar again verbally attacked= me. I have to be able to take her for an ayurveda vasti if possible. Becau= se of sRidhar and balan my mother is down in bed. She was underfed  and food poisoned in shylajas place= and she fell down and hurt her head and before her knees. I am now relieve= d that i have not seen balan shylaja rohini durga and I am worried the crim= inals have organised hareRama harekrishna in chepilamuri that I was forced to see when I returned by bus. Yesterday = the FBI fought with me obviously  some criminals following my tweets a= re calling them. The law  enforcers are negligent and prevented me hav= ing any income last 17 years and still allowing the organisation to continue criminal ways. I could not offer a few sips o= f appy fizz juice as soon as I opened it my mother protested and informed m= e sRidhar and Sarala  would Fight if she drinks it.
I again state this is serious crime using large value of money taken from s= unw market cap and using my websites as vehicles for its investment 65 bill= ion us dollars in 2007.
They are calling me wealthy and trying to kill me. I had to beg in Delhi fo= r food money and sleep in mountains of palakkad in 2015. There's no public = record of use of my websites it's theft by many authorities and who are now= trying to kill me and my mother.
I have a right to look after my mother and break up with my mother.  I= t's suspect economic activity in temples of akathethara esp durga temple ch= epilamuri I see many houses worth above 50000000rs but me and my mother are= homeless with expired address in identity documents
Please help enforce my separation from cousins and that I can take care of = my old mother and end of cybercrime using my websites
Pradeep kumar xplorer
From: pradeep xplorer <p= radeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Monday, July 8, 2019 11:46:59 PM
To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; = USPilatesAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com= ; delpol@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@= tncctns.gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac.in; supremecourt@nic.in; mu= kundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1
Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ar= denfire@yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com= ; oig.hotline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representativ= e.com; ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dm= vmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; lar= rypage@google.com; larry.ellison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@y= ogaworks.com; info@agamayoga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; sumbody= @sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.gov; aler= ts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opportillo@glo= beacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeo= pathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.com; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyo= z.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@jphma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_hom= eopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora@seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; info@homeopath= y-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; emimila@hotma= il.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeopatia.roman@= wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; i= nfo@a-r-h.org; info@th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfc= bank.com; beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srs= zsi@gmail.com; anrc@zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare@citi.com; i= nfo@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jopanda@treasur= er.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@sbi.co.in; l= orrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.= in; president@whitehouse.gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@= yogaworks.com; johnjohnassociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Gues= tservices@himalayaninstitute.org; spplkd.pol@kerala.gov.in; iucg@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and= openly towards executing me and my mother continuing
 
I could not relocate my mother to a double room. Arya  vaidya&nbs= p; pharmacy has recommended vasti  to her. I sense a danger to her as = sRidhar again tried to fight with me in evening. I am in the lodge that won= 't be available for next three days. There has to be payment enforcement  to me and not distability pension. I objec= t to this exploitation  continuing using my domains. Please ensure my = mother is safe and sRidhar won't attack Me in morning. The FBI has not enfo= rced payment and someone victor guevara is not logical and fought with me
Pradeep kumar xplorer
From: pradeep xplorer <= ;pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Monday, July 8, 2019 1:27:42 PM
To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; = USPilatesAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com= ; delpol@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@= tncctns.gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac.in; supremecourt@nic.in; mu= kundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1
Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ar= denfire@yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com= ; oig.hotline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representativ= e.com; ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dm= vmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; lar= rypage@google.com; larry.ellison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@y= ogaworks.com; info@agamayoga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; sumbody= @sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.gov; aler= ts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opportillo@glo= beacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeo= pathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.com; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyo= z.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@jphma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_hom= eopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora@seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; info@homeopath= y-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; emimila@hotma= il.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeopatia.roman@= wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; i= nfo@a-r-h.org; info@th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfc= bank.com; beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srs= zsi@gmail.com; anrc@zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare@citi.com; i= nfo@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jopanda@treasur= er.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@sbi.co.in; l= orrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.= in; president@whitehouse.gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@= yogaworks.com; johnjohnassociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Gues= tservices@himalayaninstitute.org; spplkd.pol@kerala.gov.in; cihbngrpkd.pol@kerala.gov.in; iucg@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and= openly towards executing me and my mother continuing
 
This is OLX Mobiles number.. I have a dispute with them. They did not fix m= y samsung J2 and extorted 1600rs from me when i am in danger zone with too = little cash. The android is not working.. Theres a small crack on display. = It had a blue covering when i picked it up. I removed it day before yesterday and there was a crack. I managed = to get 8000Rs from my mother. I helped her use bedpan and could remove agai= n ten grams of faeces.. Her anus is clogged. May be she would accept an ene= ma from me tomorrow but at the same time i am unhappy she is stuck in that place and the variabales for the cr= ime are too much. I am saying my money is expended by palakkad raj or some = organisation without any fear and they want me dead.. 

The man now in OLX mobiles opposite chennai mobiles in Post office junction= palakkad was very rude. This is the number displayed. OLX Mobiles +91.= 7756364676

VK shankaravarma has entered pulappatta house after i helped my mother use = bedpan.

I dont like this prolonged. I have a temporary solution. Morning i ate idli= in Indraprastha but they poisoned me in coffee and i have heart congestion= . 

I have to get a 4G device to use my JIO sim. A shop has agreed to take it f= or 1000Rs and give something else for their price. The 4G J4 they are askin= g 4800 so i have to give 3800Rs thats too much. I said to take it for 3000R= s. I am poor now because of crime continuing. I am without woman or any life and unable to rescue my mother = from harmful custody by cousins

Pradeep Kumar XPlorer
+91.6238940417

From: pradeep xplorer &= lt;pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 7, 2019 12:03 PM
To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; = USPilatesAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com= ; delpol@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@= tncctns.gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac.in; supremecourt@nic.in; mu= kundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1
Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ar= denfire@yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com= ; oig.hotline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representativ= e.com; ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dm= vmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; lar= rypage@google.com; larry.ellison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@y= ogaworks.com; info@agamayoga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; sumbody= @sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.gov; aler= ts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opportillo@glo= beacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeo= pathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.com; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyo= z.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@jphma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_hom= eopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora@seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; info@homeopath= y-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; emimila@hotma= il.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeopatia.roman@= wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; i= nfo@a-r-h.org; info@th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfc= bank.com; beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srs= zsi@gmail.com; anrc@zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare@citi.com; i= nfo@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jopanda@treasur= er.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@sbi.co.in; l= orrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.= in; president@whitehouse.gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@= yogaworks.com; johnjohnassociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Gues= tservices@himalayaninstitute.org; spplkd.pol@kerala.gov.in; cihbngrpkd.pol@kerala.gov.in; iucg@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and= openly towards executing me and my mother continuing
 
My android is not fixed has display problems or OS Problems did not respond= to touch and the parties that repaired it are not working today. I could g= ive only a sip of water to my mother in morning. I have only 550Rs and my m= other need to help me with atleast 8000Rs tomorrow. She has to shift with me so she does not lose money to th= e poor cousins and husbands like sridhar and balan who are in it for for cy= bercrime and exploiting me as well. I have expended for her in 90s and 2000= s so this is informal arrangement until i get a solution of end of cybercrime and restoration of life in Cal= ifornia.
Pradeep Kumar Xplorer

From: pradeep xplorer= <pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 6, 2019 6:23 PM
To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; = USPilatesAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com= ; delpol@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@= tncctns.gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac.in; supremecourt@nic.in; mu= kundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1
Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ar= denfire@yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com= ; oig.hotline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representativ= e.com; ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dm= vmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; lar= rypage@google.com; larry.ellison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@y= ogaworks.com; info@agamayoga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; sumbody= @sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.gov; aler= ts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opportillo@glo= beacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeo= pathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.com; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyo= z.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@jphma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_hom= eopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora@seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; info@homeopath= y-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; emimila@hotma= il.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeopatia.roman@= wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; i= nfo@a-r-h.org; info@th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfc= bank.com; beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srs= zsi@gmail.com; anrc@zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare@citi.com; i= nfo@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jopanda@treasur= er.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@sbi.co.in; l= orrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.= in; president@whitehouse.gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@= yogaworks.com; johnjohnassociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Gues= tservices@himalayaninstitute.org; spplkd.pol@kerala.gov.in; cihbngrpkd.pol@kerala.gov.in
Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and= openly towards executing me and my mother continuing
 
I entered oldpulappatta house and when enquiring where is the icecream ball= i bought for my mother sridhar verbally attacked me and tried to provoke m= e into a fight. he says he would not allow me to give anything to her or lo= ok after her. I noticed he has extorted some cash to buy her a bedpan and to prevent me helping her use the chair = stool.
I was attacked by sridhar and two sons in Nov 2013 and hospitalised and har= med and i have complained to palakkad district police. I have now a room in= palakkad for 400rs where if they did not object i would have relocated her= . My mothers life is in danger and she has alerady been harmed and drugged and underfed by sridhar and balan.= These prevented me renting in mettupalayam in end of 2017 and attacked and= hospitalised and injured my yoga body. Sridhar is a criminal medical repre= sentative and me and my mother are his victims. I am a Thai spa yoga class being and i was harmed four times = after SUN was sold to ORACLE.
Theres an organisation employed using my websites expending money i sh= ould have expended for my personal life in MountainView California in 2004.=
They have destroyed my immigration status in USA and preventing me get= ting any income funds employment in India and attacked and harmed me.
They prevented me from marrying another woman after i broke up with am= y rainier starkey in April 2001 and used a dead sindhu issue to extort 8000= 00Rs from my citigold account in bangalore in Aug 2003. Again i suspect they did not allow sindhu to enjoy it and ext= orted and build the house in chepilamuri.
Balan and sridhar have partnered with an organisation exploiting me an= d slowly killing me and my mother. My mother would not have had knee surger= y if she was with me. They underfed her and she fell down and even after knee surgery they underfed her and made h= er fall and injure her head. Its as if balan and sridhar has hurt her head = with an axe. I could have discharged her from sai hospital to a double room=
instead she is now inside old pulappatta house and they are getting so= me cash and sometimes food poisoning her. I was prevented from breaking up = with her in 2004 when i should have been reemployed and married to someone else like amy and i would have fathered = children. This is an organised crime exploiting use of surname pulappatta a= nd thats an old house that should have been dismantled decades ago. Whoever= employed world wide using my websites are thieves and trying to kill my mother and me. I have no clue why CI of = hemambika nagar is not negotiating me separated from cousins and my mother = under my care so i can solve my US situation and relocate back. I have only= 700Rs and my mother could be used to attack me when i would ask for 10000Rs day after tomorrow. The informal= agreement between me and my mother is she helping me by 500Rs as i have ex= pended money for her when sun employed and treated her well in usa for a ye= ar and also paid her money. 
I again suspect sindhu was used to extort 800000Rs from my citigold ac= count to exploit me and my website publishing and not pay me my money to se= tttle in bayarea. Then they created situation where sun was sold to oracle and had me attacked and sindhu married to som= eone and kannan married rohini. I reported to udit chaithanya her life is i= n danger he ignored now my mother has a head wound so i suspect them as wel= l.
ANyway its a risk for me being in pulappatta house and my mother shoul= d be with me and the cousins should not bother me. This has to be enforced = by local law enforcement because sridhar is preventing me shifting with her.  I suspect if the 175000Rs she ha= d in SBI was stolen or in an fixed deposit. 

Please help end this situation
Pradeep Kumar Xplorer

From: pradeep xplor= er <pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Friday, July 5, 2019 5:56 PM
To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; = USPilatesAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com= ; delpol@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@= tncctns.gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac.in; supremecourt@nic.in; mu= kundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1
Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ar= denfire@yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com= ; oig.hotline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representativ= e.com; ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dm= vmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; lar= rypage@google.com; larry.ellison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@y= ogaworks.com; info@agamayoga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; sumbody= @sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.gov; aler= ts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opportillo@glo= beacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeo= pathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.com; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyo= z.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@jphma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_hom= eopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora@seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; info@homeopath= y-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; emimila@hotma= il.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeopatia.roman@= wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; i= nfo@a-r-h.org; info@th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfc= bank.com; beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srs= zsi@gmail.com; anrc@zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare@citi.com; i= nfo@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jopanda@treasur= er.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@sbi.co.in; l= orrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.= in; president@whitehouse.gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@= yogaworks.com; johnjohnassociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Gues= tservices@himalayaninstitute.org; Police@mountainview.gov
Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and= openly towards executing me and my mother continuing
 
These are the events of the day
I reported my situation and medical cruelty suffered by my mother to FBI, M= ountainView police, USDOJ, Executive office of immigration review and many = others in this list.
Today morning while resting in ashirvad lodge i kept my mobile for charging= and it fell down
and display was damaged. I dont know if it was trembled artificially. = I went to shop that i purchased it
and they wanted 1800Rs. I had only 2200Rs. 
I went to pulappatta house. Ammini relative of mathrubhumi founder kp kesav= amenon was present
After my mother ate lunch she signed 10000Rs for me. She was saying theres = only 3000Rs in it.
She did not say who she asked to Create Fixed deposit.
I went to malampuzha road SBI and they did not honor the cheque claiming si= gnature mismatch.
I suspect who encashed the 100000rs from 275000rs account. They asked me to= get a letter signed by my mother that this is her current signature. I wen= t to the house and sridhar tried to fight with me. Thats a criminal not pun= ished by law enforcement and still used to attack me. Sridhar and two sons have attacked me  in nov 2013= and i reported  to palakkad police and nothing has been done. So he s= till attacks me. After attacking me in nov 2013 hi two sons got employed. I= suspect Sridhar and sons must have attacked my mother as well. The two sons look well fed like fighters. Sridhar tried= to attack me when exiting also and autodriver farooq saw it. I suspect sar= ala has food poisoned her also. Her vital energy is less. Sridhar is a crim= inal that has harmed my mother using hospitals and harmed me also using allopathic hospitals and getting away w= ith it. Because of the Sridhar sarala shylaja balan i am not able to heal m= y mother give her an enema or massage or heal her by health food and i accu= se them as being allowed to slowly kill my mother and they would kill me too. Sridhar threatened me that i sh= ould not stay anywhere and sleep there. Sridhar and the BJP RSS are crimina= ls that has prevented me marrying anyone using a sindhu issue and all of th= em need to be executed. They want all my money as ancestral wealth. Sridhar informed me he would attack me w= herever i am if i dont go to that house and sridhar balan and many criminal= s are allowed to interact with my mother and believe i am a disabled and us= ed her to attack me. Today evening my life is in danger. Its an organisation of executable shameless thieves = calling me poor by allowing many criminals like sridhar to prevent the old = pulappatta house being disposed and to prove i am poor who was born there o= r something.
Its because of VK sushllkumar and his childrens poverty that house is not d= isposed.Sridhar also threatened me that if i dont show up they would move m= y mother to an unknown location where i would never meet her.
They want all of my money as KP Visalakshies wealth and steal it. They star= ted the shaktheyam movement to steal my money using her and a sindhu issue = and prevented sale of leela vilas and created a durga temple and stealing m= oney. I suspect Sridhar and balan and many criminals must have held my mother hostage and prevented me meeti= ng with her when i was back from rishikesh and then cruelly detained me in = bethsada hospital and is unforgivable. I suspect her leg fracture is becaus= e of being attacked and malnutrition and food poison. shylaja balan sridhar sarala need to be prosecuted to end= medical cruelty against my mother and me. After getting the letter the ban= k found she had only 3000Rs and send a man to get a fingerprint and she gav= e me only 2000Rs. Sridhar did not try and attack me in front of that man. I expressed i am an  SBI = ; customer who lost some money to SBI account holders and SBI has not retur= ned it thats why i shouted at them. I am worried that my mother has been he= ld hostage in 2015 and she has been cruelly treated and she has deep fear thats why i am not able to get her consent t= o solve the crime. I suspect balan must have had some device to make her fa= ll or something first time. Second time she fell down because of malnutriti= on. malabarhospitals has to be invetsigated if it is giving money to sridhar or employing anyone related to sridhar ba= lan etc.
Sridhar has attacked me and would attack me again. That house has to be sol= d and some money given to my mother and if they think they owe me money to = me also. I dont owe them any money and if my money has been used to help th= em its theft. many like sridhar are preventing me being married and fathering a child and  trying to = execute me using palakkad raj saga and spicing it with stories like krakata= o
Please help
Pradeep Kumar Xplorer



From: pradeep xpl= orer <pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2019 5:55 AM
To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; = USPilatesAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com= ; delpol@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@= tncctns.gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac.in; supremecourt@nic.in; mu= kundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1
Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ar= denfire@yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com= ; oig.hotline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representativ= e.com; ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dm= vmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; lar= rypage@google.com; larry.ellison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@y= ogaworks.com; info@agamayoga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; sumbody= @sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.gov; aler= ts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opportillo@glo= beacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeo= pathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.com; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyo= z.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@jphma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_hom= eopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora@seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; info@homeopath= y-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; emimila@hotma= il.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeopatia.roman@= wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; i= nfo@a-r-h.org; info@th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfc= bank.com; beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srs= zsi@gmail.com; anrc@zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare@citi.com; i= nfo@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jopanda@treasur= er.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@sbi.co.in; l= orrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.= in; president@whitehouse.gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@= yogaworks.com; johnjohnassociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Gues= tservices@himalayaninstitute.org; Police@mountainview.gov
Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and= openly towards executing me and my mother continuing
 
I am writing this from a double bedroom = in aiswarya lodge one past namaskar lodge in ksrtc busstand area. I entered= old pulappatta house and i have tweeted the photos. It's an old house and = not really inhabitable. I spend about half an hour there. My mother is inside a room again in some sort of khaDi= bed
I observed these..
Sarala did not let me give bottle water.. when it opened some aquachill wat= er she took some water she has made like chukku vellam and gave it to her. = I bought some rheumaheal ointment and massaged her leg. Fbi has directed me= to call usa dept of state. So she is with sridhar and sarala and whatever they give as food would enter her = body. It's like very dirty house to me with newer buildings all around. My = mother asked me to go to rohinivilla and sleep up that's not acceptible to = me. In dialed her at about 130 am and she has not picked up. She must have been fed congi in evening. When i= was there sarala gave her horlicks and is took a sip. My stomach did not l= ike it instantly and is have a slight skin problem in right feet. Thats the= old house weLl water entering her body. I am posting photos of my current room in my tweets right now
Pradeep kumar xplorer
________________________________
From: pradeep xplorer <pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2019 2:43:12 PM
To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac.in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.= com; IMB Recipient 1
Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dm= vmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; lar= rypage@google.com; larry.ellison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@y= ogaworks.com; info@agamayoga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; sumbody= @sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.gov; aler= ts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opportillo@glo= beacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeo= pathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.com; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyo= z.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@jphma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_hom= eopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora@seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; info@homeopath= y-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; emimila@hotma= il.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeopatia.roman@= wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; i= nfo@a-r-h.org; info@th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfc= bank.com; beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srs= zsi@gmail.com; anrc@zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare@citi.com; i= nfo@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jopanda@treasur= er.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@sbi.co.in; l= orrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.= in; president@whitehouse.gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@= yogaworks.com; johnjohnassociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Gues= tservices@himalayaninstitute.org; Police@mountainview.gov
Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing

Despite my persistence because of selfish interests of sarala sridhar shyle= sh balan shylaja and all related to them
my mother is in old pulappatta house. My phone stopped charging. They are d= escendants of late VK sushil kumar
and not letting me go. I am worried about her being food poison and druggin= g and future hospitalisation. I have 8000Rs room
and i can heal my mother and deal with other things. When i called my mothe= r the phone was switched off and when i called sarala my mother picked up p= hone.
I have no home and just 4300rs now.
My mother should give me 20000Rs tomorrow and i can take care of her in the= room near KSRTC busstand with clean restrooms and bed to rest. She needs t= o eat hop to a stool.. helped to change diapers and with health food and dr= inks her
knees would heal.Meanwhile i can pursue my interests of relocating to calif= ornia and my website
Please help that this is enforced.
Pradeep Kumar Xplorer

________________________________
From: pradeep xplorer <pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2019 11:52 AM
To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac.in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.= com; IMB Recipient 1
Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dm= vmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; lar= rypage@google.com; larry.ellison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@y= ogaworks.com; info@agamayoga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; sumbody= @sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.gov; aler= ts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opportillo@glo= beacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeo= pathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.com; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyo= z.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@jphma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_hom= eopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora@seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; info@homeopath= y-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; emimila@hotma= il.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeopatia.roman@= wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; i= nfo@a-r-h.org; info@th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfc= bank.com; beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srs= zsi@gmail.com; anrc@zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare@citi.com; i= nfo@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jopanda@treasur= er.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@sbi.co.in; l= orrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.= in; president@whitehouse.gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@= yogaworks.com; johnjohnassociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Gues= tservices@himalayaninstitute.org; Police@mountainview.gov
Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing

Please enforce that my motehr is not discharged to old pulappatta or rohini= villa as it would result in more harm and her death. I can 24/7 take care o= f her for a month in a double bed room in ksrtc area namaskar lodge where w= e both have stayed before.I am going to take a look at the room now. The cousins are problematic and depending = on her and me and surname and it need to be ended. Its extreme civil rights= abuse for me not being able to separate from the cousins that too that has= attacked me and my mother as well.
I am writing this from ayappa travels..
I am charging my mobile now.
My mother wont get good food and would collapse from food poisoning if take= n care by sarala sridhar balan shylaja or shylesh.
They are criminals intruding 24/7 and not selling old pulappatta house also=
I have reported to palakkad police i have been attacked by sridhar and sons= and balan and kannan.
So why is this continuing.
Pradeep Kumar Xplorer


________________________________
From: pradeep xplorer <pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2019 8:55 AM
To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac.in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.= com; IMB Recipient 1
Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dm= vmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; lar= rypage@google.com; larry.ellison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@y= ogaworks.com; info@agamayoga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; sumbody= @sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.gov; aler= ts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opportillo@glo= beacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeo= pathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.com; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyo= z.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@jphma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_hom= eopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora@seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; info@homeopath= y-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; emimila@hotma= il.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeopatia.roman@= wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; i= nfo@a-r-h.org; info@th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfc= bank.com; beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srs= zsi@gmail.com; anrc@zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare@citi.com; i= nfo@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jopanda@treasur= er.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@sbi.co.in; l= orrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.= in; president@whitehouse.gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@= yogaworks.com; johnjohnassociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Gues= tservices@himalayaninstitute.org; Police@mountainview.gov
Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing

I ate upma and fried egg from indian coffee house. I packed upma as it was = healthy good quality. I took an auto to make sure it enters my mothers body= . The criminals sridhar and sarala prevented it by sending a wheat dosa put= rid I spat out after one bite. My mother also made some sound eating it . I gave her upma without chutney or= Sambar and still she complained because of them sending dosa. My mother co= mplained the upma is spicy or hot or chilly but it did not have chilly and = it was not hot. Sara the disturbed me giving food by saying eat drugs. The upma was finally consumed by shara= t. Sharat should say yes to my request for help and shift her to double roo= m. Instead I am worried he thinks me and my mother killed his father. Sridh= ar sarala shylaja balan kannan sridhars two sons are dangerous criminals to me that has already managed to harm me= and my mother and inflict too much cruelty on both of us.. it has to be en= forced for her safety that she is separated from them and i am separated fr= om them so I can take care of her and relocate.
I gave letter that John george gave to Hemambika nagar police station.
It's dangerous for my mother to be shifted to rohinivilla or pulappatta hou= se they would underfed her food poison her prevent me taking care of her an= d repeatedly put her under care of allopathic hospitals until she is dead. = My mother should be healed and made assertive and made to enjoy life and chose holistic healing modalities
Pradeep kumar xplorer
91.6238940417
________________________________
From: pradeep xplorer <pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2019 7:49:36 AM
To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac.in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.= com; IMB Recipient 1
Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dm= vmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; lar= rypage@google.com; larry.ellison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@y= ogaworks.com; info@agamayoga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; sumbody= @sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.gov; aler= ts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opportillo@glo= beacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeo= pathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.com; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyo= z.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@jphma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_hom= eopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora@seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; info@homeopath= y-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; emimila@hotma= il.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeopatia.roman@= wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; i= nfo@a-r-h.org; info@th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfc= bank.com; beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srs= zsi@gmail.com; anrc@zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare@citi.com; i= nfo@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jopanda@treasur= er.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@sbi.co.in; l= orrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.= in; president@whitehouse.gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@= yogaworks.com; johnjohnassociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Gues= tservices@himalayaninstitute.org
Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing

I have given the letter written by shameera from John George's office to he= mambika nagar police. My mother should not Ingest anything made by shylaja = or their ensure congi milk and for that matter anyone food by cousins. I wa= nt to prevent further injuries and danger to her life she be discharged from sai hospital to a double room in= namaskar lodge for a month for 8000rs which is only 3000rs and it be enfor= ced that she be dedrugged and given a choice to chose treatment modality of= ayurveda homoeo or spa yoga massage class or naturopathy any thing other than allopathic. Sridhar and balan ar= e dangerous that has harmed me and my mother using doctors and trying to ex= ecute us
Pradeep kumar xplorer
91.6238940417
________________________________
From: pradeep xplorer <pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 5:35:33 PM
To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac.in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.= com; IMB Recipient 1
Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dm= vmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; lar= rypage@google.com; larry.ellison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@y= ogaworks.com; info@agamayoga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; sumbody= @sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.gov; aler= ts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opportillo@glo= beacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeo= pathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.com; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyo= z.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@jphma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_hom= eopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora@seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; info@homeopath= y-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; emimila@hotma= il.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeopatia.roman@= wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; i= nfo@a-r-h.org; info@th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfc= bank.com; beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srs= zsi@gmail.com; anrc@zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare@citi.com; i= nfo@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jopanda@treasur= er.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@sbi.co.in; l= orrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.= in; president@whitehouse.gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@= yogaworks.com
Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing

Balan entered here and tried to attack me saying i did not change my dress.= They are trying to food poison my mother. I am a person who washes clothes= and use them i use only one pair. I washed my tshirt and underwear and kha= ki pants is OK. They are now preventing me from giving the tender coconut. Balan is a criminal trying to execute m= y mother and suspect behind this crime. My mother is again given saline. I = have contacted the local authorities of akathethara 91.491.2555208 they sho= uld charge balan for injuring my mothers head by underfeeding her. Balan sarala sridhar shylaja are the cri= minals. My mothers body cannot be a quality testing ground. They are hoveri= ng over her and i dont like it. I am an adult who does not have to see any = of these. In addition if these extorted the money I paid to sindhu in 2003 it is a major crime in which sindhu als= o might have been injured by these. These have prevented me from giving her= tender coconut. I have cared for my mother and treated her for a year in m= ountianview using my income. And she wanted me here. So she did not keep tabs and helping me.these are prev= enting me being helped by her.i have no idea who has taken my money or why = i cannot have an income from yoga and software. Please request kunjikavu to= appear and help my mother to bsnl quarters some room. My mother would die if fed by them. Sarala and balan a= re criminals now claiming I am harming her or something. These are shameles= s criminals promoted by some international criminal organisation using a su= rname usage and thieves
Pradeep kumar xplorer
________________________________
From: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info <pradeep@dhyanayoga.info>
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 4:56:37 PM
To: rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilatesAssociation@gmail.com; = info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpol@vsnl.com; info@qatarair= ways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns.gov.in; press@interpol.i= nt; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac.in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient = 1; pradeep xplorer
Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dm= vmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; lar= rypage@google.com; larry.ellison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@y= ogaworks.com; info@agamayoga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; sumbody= @sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.gov; aler= ts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opportillo@glo= beacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeo= pathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.com; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyo= z.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@jphma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_hom= eopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora@seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; info@homeopath= y-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; emimila@hotma= il.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeopatia.roman@= wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; i= nfo@a-r-h.org; info@th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfc= bank.com; beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srs= zsi@gmail.com; anrc@zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare@citi.com; i= nfo@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jopanda@treasur= er.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@sbi.co.in; l= orrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.= in; president@whitehouse.gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@= yogaworks.com
Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing

I managed to avoid food poison or anything from shylaja for my mother by be= ing here i gave her chai from down and idli from down and prevented sarala = from giving ensure. I talked to the spectacled doctor and my mother agreed = to drink horlicks with hot water. But i had to fight with sarala . I suspect they are having an income by ma= intaining the old pulappatta house which is like the only common wealth .. = I owe nothing from pradeep kumar pulappatta accounts or pradeep kumar xplor= er accounts to them. I left to avoid them and i dont know what sarala gave. She vomited some time earlier I am = trillion times certain she won't vomit anything if she is in kaliappa hotel= or alathur hotel in a room under my care so this is crime by local law enf= orcers in akathethara hemambika nagar police station or whoever keeping my money as common wealth. It coul= d be a planned attack by sarala and shylesh who to me are poor because they= created children and i dont have even one. It's a crime that mountain view= police is unable to help or not helping or the us embassies not enforcing and continuing harm to me and my= mother. I do not want any of vk sushilkumar and kp saradas children or the= ir connections giving anything to my mother as i suspect they may want to e= xecute her. There cannot be any room for  chance. This has to be enforced at the level I am reporting=
Pradeep kumar xplorer

Sent from MailDroid<https://goo.gl/ODg= wBb>

-----Original Message-----
From: pradeep xplorer <pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
To: "pradeep@dhyanayoga.info" <pradeep@dhyanayoga.info>, &q= uot;rwalker@scscourt.org" <rwalker@scscourt.org>, "icann@ic= ann.org" <icann@icann.org>, "USPilatesAssociation@gmail.com= " <USPilatesAssociation@gmail.com>, "info@pilates.org.au&qu= ot; <info@pilates.org.au>, "office@brietenbush.com" <office@brietenbush.com>, "delpol@vsnl.com" <delpol@vsn= l.com>, "info@qatarairways.qa" <info@qatarairways.qa>, &= quot;directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in" <directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in>= ;, "dgp@tncctns.gov.in" <dgp@tncctns.gov.in>, "press@i= nterpol.int" <press@interpol.int>, "info@archive.org" <info@archive.org>, "rkumar.kpm@ni= c.in" <rkumar.kpm@nic.in>, "sasi@cdac.in" <sasi@cda= c.in>, "supremecourt@nic.in" <supremecourt@nic.in>, &quo= t;mukundram2007@gmail.com" <mukundram2007@gmail.com>, IMB Recipi= ent 1 <mspop3connector.info@nvkh.nl>
Cc: "scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil" <scotte.stafford@siap.= pentagon.mil>, "ladyofmanynames@gmail.com" <ladyofmanynames= @gmail.com>, "ardenfire@yahoo.com" <ardenfire@yahoo.com>= , "sovereignamber@hotmail.com" <sovereignamber@hotmail.com>= , "fmcreative@fantasymakers.com" <fmcreative@fantasymakers.com>, "oig.hotline@ssa.gov" <= oig.hotline@ssa.gov>, "ssa.comments@ssa.gov" <ssa.comments@= ssa.gov>, "efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com" <efcc.niger= ia.org@representative.com>, "ehc@lighthouse-sf.org" <ehc@li= ghthouse-sf.org>, "rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com" <rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com>, "dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com&qu= ot; <dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com>, "amy@amytanathorn.com"= ; <amy@amytanathorn.com>, "amyji2@gmail.com" <amyji2@gma= il.com>, "dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov" <dmvmediarelations@= dmv.ca.gov>, "zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com" <zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com>, "scottm@wayin.com" <scottm@= wayin.com>, "larrypage@google.com" <larrypage@google.com>= ;, "larry.ellison@oracle.com" <larry.ellison@oracle.com>, &= quot;info@yogaalliance.org" <info@yogaalliance.org>, "info@= yogaworks.com" <info@yogaworks.com>, "info@agamayoga.com" <info@agamayoga.com>, "mail@asht= angayoga.info" <mail@ashtangayoga.info>, "hilaryacer@gmail.= com" <hilaryacer@gmail.com>, "info@yogasource.com" <= ;info@yogasource.com>, "sumbody@sumbody.com" <sumbody@sumbo= dy.com>, "askvisa@visa.com" <askvisa@visa.com>, "askvisausa@visa.com" <askvisausa@visa.com>, "askdoj@= usdoj.gov" <askdoj@usdoj.gov>, "alerts@wellsfargo.com"= <alerts@wellsfargo.com>, "john.c.gerspach@citi.com" <jo= hn.c.gerspach@citi.com>, "deptc@jcap.com" <deptc@jcap.com&g= t;, "opportillo@globeacceptance.com" <opportillo@globeacceptance.com>, "abuse@chase.com" <ab= use@chase.com>, "pao.eoir@usdoj.gov" <pao.eoir@usdoj.gov>= ;, "adminnzch@xtra.co.nz" <adminnzch@xtra.co.nz>, "chc= admin@comcast.net" <chcadmin@comcast.net>, "info@homeopathy= hongkong.org" <info@homeopathyhongkong.org>, "nashinfo@aol.com" <nashinfo@aol.com>, "ocharmenia@ma= il.com" <ocharmenia@mail.com>, "admin@homeopathyoz.org"= ; <admin@homeopathyoz.org>, "accueil@sphq.org" <accueil@= sphq.org>, "office@jphma.org" <office@jphma.org>, "= info@ligahomeopatica.be" <info@ligahomeopatica.be>, "bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com" <bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com>, "= ;homeopat.komora@seznam.cz" <homeopat.komora@seznam.cz>, "d= skh@homeopati.dk" <dskh@homeopati.dk>, "toimisto@homeopaati= t.fi" <toimisto@homeopaatit.fi>, "office@vkhd.de" <= office@vkhd.de>, "info@homeopathy-greece.gr" <info@homeopathy-greece.gr>, "ishom@eircom.net" <ishom@= eircom.net>, "info@corporazioneomeopati.org" <info@corporaz= ioneomeopati.org>, "emimila@hotmail.com" <emimila@hotmail.c= om>, "mcutajar@maltanet.net" <mcutajar@maltanet.net>, &q= uot;info@nvkh.nl" <info@nvkh.nl>, "nhl@c2i.net" <nhl@c2i.net>, "homeopatia.roman@wp.pl&= quot; <homeopatia.roman@wp.pl>, "aph.lxp@gmail.com" <aph= .lxp@gmail.com>, "homeons@neobee.net" <homeons@neobee.net&g= t;, "rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk" <rada@homeopaticka-asocia= cia.sk>, "info@aehu.es" <info@aehu.es>, "info@sakh.se" <info@sakh.se>, "info@hvs.ch" <= ;info@hvs.ch>, "info@a-r-h.org" <info@a-r-h.org>, "= info@the-hma.org" <info@the-hma.org>, "info@homeopathy-soh.= org" <info@homeopathy-soh.org>, "pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com&q= uot; <pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com>, "beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com= " <beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com>, "benefits.application@ssa.gov= " <benefits.application@ssa.gov>, "srszsi@gmail.com" &= lt;srszsi@gmail.com>, "anrc@zsi.gov.in" <anrc@zsi.gov.in>= ;, "nrc@zsi.gov.in" <nrc@zsi.gov.in>, "hr@harbin.org&q= uot; <hr@harbin.org>, "info@olt.org" <info@olt.org>, "head.customercare@citi.com" <head.cust= omercare@citi.com>, "info@jennervacationrentals.com" <info@= jennervacationrentals.com>, "info@kinoyoga.com" <info@kinoy= oga.com>, "Geneveive.jopanda@treasurer.ca.gov" <Geneveive.j= opanda@treasurer.ca.gov>, "dtocbe@nic.in" <dtocbe@nic.in>, "agaekarnataka@cag.g= ov" <agaekarnataka@cag.gov>, "Contactcentre@sbi.co.in"= <Contactcentre@sbi.co.in>, "lorrett@fantasymakers.com" <= ;lorrett@fantasymakers.com>, "Care@jio.com" <Care@jio.com&g= t;, "gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov" <gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov>, SPMC PHQ <spmcphq.pol@kerala.gov.in>, "PHQ.pol@kerala.gov.in&qu= ot; <PHQ.pol@kerala.gov.in>, "igadm@crpf.gov.in" <igadm@= crpf.gov.in>, "president@whitehouse.gov" <president@whiteho= use.gov>, "Kumaarj5@Gmail.com" <Kumaarj5@Gmail.com>, &qu= ot;Mumbaif@state.gov" <Mumbaif@state.gov>, "Megan@yogaworks.com" <Megan@yogaworks.com>
Sent: Mon, 01 Jul 2019 12:23
Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing

Hello
These are the events that again made me very disturbed.
I tweeted in @pradeepxplorer1 that i was in a long beach hotel cabin with s= ee through glasses
that i can see from inside but from outside they cannot see me..I was in a = double room with double bed
that i paid 3000Rs and i was all alone and i did not have a girl frend or w= oman to enjoy the beach and evening
and i posted in my website this is 2010 december past 20th i think and i ha= d explodingmoon.org only
dhyanayoga.info was not available for registration and i recieved an email = from bkvarma88@hotmail.com that my mother got hospitalised and i am worried= if balan or sridhar or bharat or their connections attacked her. I had to = call from
phone and my mother was admitted for second umbilical hernia operation i su= spect sirdhar and bharat was in touch
and i suspect all of those are criminals claiming money from me using sindh= u and has some control over
some funds or stealing my subscribers help using my domains claiming i am w= ealthy as Ex sun employee.
After that tweet saraal entered the hospital and i started getting disturbe= d as she is not there to just visit
but to ensure my mother is food poisoned or eat what she brings and they ca= n do anything. My mother was food
poisoned by shylaja resulting in her eating very very less food,, one idli = in morning and one glass of rice water for lunch and
one glass of milk for dinner, she lost ten kilogram and sensing that i trie= d to eat her my kind of food and balan
attacked me. Balan has attacked me inside govt homoe kalpathy hospital and = also inside sai hospital yesterday.
My mothers life would be in danger as she is already weak if she is shifted= back to rohinivilla. Kunjikav teacher
my mothers colleague came and visited her and with her was some bsnl staff = jayakumar. It would be best if they
can relocate to her a room somewhere there. I am willing to travel with her= to US airport and fly out
with the help of US embassy chennai. I again assertively declare i am sole = owner author authority or dhyanayoga.info
explodingmoon.org pradeepkumarxplorer.com and that money and fact is suffic= ient for me to live in USA
with US citizenship with my mother or whatever status. Its not acceptible t= his case dispute uncertainty indecision continued another day. It would lea= d to my mothers death. The local police in akathethara is partner to this c= rime
as they have partnered with attacking and hospitalising me after SUN was so= ld to ORACLE and even now
 not acknowledging me as author owner of websites dhyanayoga.info expl= odingmoon.org pradeepkumarxplorer.com

This is what happened after sarala entered hospital (sai hospital room 20 o= lavakkode palakkad)
She kept on asking her to drink ensure
I reported that she should not give her ensure.. My mother had vomitted it = the day before she fell
down.
I am certain there was food poison
I am certain the congi shylaja sends is low grade or with food poison
I am certain Balan Kannan Sridhar two sons would not admit that they attack= ed me and would continue to attack me
and do things to extort cash from my mother.
I am sure they are not my wellwishers and trying to murder me and my mother= . Sarala and shylaja are partners to it.
Bharat indira are also partners to it.

If they are taking money paid to me its a very cruel crime that cannot be f= orgiven.
Sarala started fighting with me and threatened me she would call someone to= attack me and called sridhar shylesh
and when doctor entered i mentioned the ensure had food poison and should n= ot be given to my mother or the congi
and the doctor agreed when i talked to him objectively. I then made horlick= s with hotwater. My mother had to be discharged to a different room with he= lp of kunjikavu or anyone like that i should get a solution to take her to = the airport and with help of uS embassies fly back to USa and get money/employment and lead my life.

Sridhar and two sons Balan kannan has attacked me and still i have to see t= hem. yesterday balan and shylesh tried to attack me.
shankaravarmas wife objected to me not changing pants.

I also mentioned bluehost.com is not changing registrant contact of three d= omains to +91.6238940417.
Please free the suspects accounts so that they dont have money to continue = this crime against me and my mother
I am writing from ayyappa travels and i am just a customer here.

Pradeep Kumar Xplorer
+91.6238940417


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Tue, 9 Jul 2019 11:13:26 +0000 Received: from MAXPR01MB2304.INDPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (10.152.252.59) by PU1APC01FT006.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.252.104) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.2052.18 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 11:13:26 +0000 Received: from MAXPR01MB2304.INDPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::ac37:bfe6:a0bb:ea27]) by MAXPR01MB2304.INDPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::ac37:bfe6:a0bb:ea27%5]) with mapi id 15.20.2052.020; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 11:13:26 +0000 From: pradeep xplorer To: "jkkottarathodi@gmail.com" , "art@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly towards executing me and my mother continuing Thread-Index: AdUxf4oTaIsSPmjrOkKGbXEvkK98QgAWyTLlAFOqVHQAM2/ivQAllKq6ADUeMvUAAOXYawA4OBU+ Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 11:13:26 +0000 Message-ID: References: , <21d4503f-a5ca-4e36-bda8-c467af7b05de.maildroid@localhost>, , , , , , , , , , , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:6B473E251E1F4C5EC93A5130BCEB9B1ECE02B05FD8E3B074A0E6E05D0B6DF4B9; UpperCasedChecksum:7360E583DA12FCDB32CA057C31E8C12F0B6137B8541F97D291A5451D88C96CDA; SizeAsReceived:8039; Count:43 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [qC3yKCa4XNHDb1UxSin6NWLbgKrT1ORTw6LsgUaDrPEu3ZDvAm9iLw==] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-incomingheadercount: 43 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390118)(5050001)(7020095)(20181119110)(201702061078)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031322404)(2017031323274)(2017031324274)(1601125500)(1603101475)(1701031045); SRVR:PU1APC01HT055; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: PU1APC01HT055: x-ms-exchange-purlcount: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: pgr0JNSdui8vXiiWF1vLusnW8QWA0mH+ar1NpLx7cjtyBz4GtIITNIQpGkhsukBhkSj7I3nFoKIv9FOFc8ACyOrIBpv/AnNqEkwOI9y2Ftcg2zlN6qK25k3+/EoZ44NoxjbL+3tvt7wmgFaivFsBUC6Ef7YINomN/zDWdnfZa8ksXqW8bv3vFmbvdIKJpmSf Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_MAXPR01MB230444A51AE447BE55968E8AB7F10MAXPR01MB2304INDP_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 52a3340b-6445-4c3d-3868-08d7045e76ce X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 09 Jul 2019 11:13:26.2178 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: PU1APC01HT055 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly towards executing me and my mother continuing X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 11:13:40 -0000 --_000_MAXPR01MB230444A51AE447BE55968E8AB7F10MAXPR01MB2304INDP_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You tried to buy gayathri akathethara palakkad and was prevented by bharat= to buy it as they had some agenda for building the gate. Those with surnam= e of pulappatta are not my family but the us Cbp has forced me to sign a fo= rm I 407 in which surname is shown as family name. I suspect theft of 65 b= illion dollars from sunw company in 2007 using my domains and then instead = of employing me in california they forced me to surrender usa pr status and= they would want all my websites disabled and both me and my mother dead. I= really don't know if things would have been different if you bought it. I have been attacked four times and yoga body injured in low class allopath= ic hospitals after sun was sold to oracle. Sun is a company like microsoft= and should have survived. ________________________________ From: pradeep xplorer Sent: Monday, July 8, 2019 1:51:16 PM To: jkkottarathodi@gmail.com Subject: Fw: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing I am stuck here because of some crime using surname used that i changed in = 2009.. That bharat is cousin indiras husband and has built a gate into gaya= tri. I am sole registrant owner author of my domains dhyanayoga.info since = 2004, explodingmoon.org since 2008 and pradeepkumarxplorer.com since 2013. = You can google me. A criminal black company organisation is operating my mo= ney using my websites and i have zero subscriber help. My mother and me are= poor. SOme fraud is happening using the gayatri akathethara palakkad addre= ss which is still in my indian passport and aadhar card, thats expired addr= ess. I have no contacts with anyone in India and trying to return to califo= rnia with my mother. I am a 14 year MountainView resident.. I have been att= acked four times and hospitalised and harmed since Jan 2010. My yoga body h= as been repeatedly injured. If you look at IUCG ietf.org archives i have disputed with bharat as well. I need to be helped to get my funds money get my life back in California Pradeep Kumar XPlorer http://twitter.com/PradeepXplorer1 +91.6238940417 ________________________________ From: pradeep xplorer Sent: Monday, July 8, 2019 1:27 PM To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac= .in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1 Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrublof= f.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov= ; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; larrypage@google.com; larry.e= llison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@yogaworks.com; info@agamayo= ga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; = sumbody@sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.go= v; alerts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opporti= llo@globeacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtr= a.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeopathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.co= m; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyoz.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@j= phma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora= @seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; inf= o@homeopathy-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; em= imila@hotmail.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeop= atia.roman@wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-= asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; info@a-r-h.org; info= @th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com; beyoutifu= llivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srszsi@gmail.com; anrc= @zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare= @citi.com; info@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jop= anda@treasurer.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@= sbi.co.in; lorrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov= ; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.in; president@whitehouse= .gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@yogaworks.com; johnjohna= ssociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Guestservices@himalayaninsti= tute.org; spplkd.pol@kerala.gov.in; cihbngrpkd.pol@kerala.gov.in; iucg@ietf= .org Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing This is OLX Mobiles number.. I have a dispute with them. They did not fix m= y samsung J2 and extorted 1600rs from me when i am in danger zone with too = little cash. The android is not working.. Theres a small crack on display. = It had a blue covering when i picked it up. I removed it day before yesterd= ay and there was a crack. I managed to get 8000Rs from my mother. I helped = her use bedpan and could remove again ten grams of faeces.. Her anus is clo= gged. May be she would accept an enema from me tomorrow but at the same tim= e i am unhappy she is stuck in that place and the variabales for the crime = are too much. I am saying my money is expended by palakkad raj or some orga= nisation without any fear and they want me dead.. The man now in OLX mobiles opposite chennai mobiles in Post office junction= palakkad was very rude. This is the number displayed. OLX Mobiles +91.7756= 364676 VK shankaravarma has entered pulappatta house after i helped my mother use = bedpan. I dont like this prolonged. I have a temporary solution. Morning i ate idli= in Indraprastha but they poisoned me in coffee and i have heart congestion= . I have to get a 4G device to use my JIO sim. A shop has agreed to take it f= or 1000Rs and give something else for their price. The 4G J4 they are askin= g 4800 so i have to give 3800Rs thats too much. I said to take it for 3000R= s. I am poor now because of crime continuing. I am without woman or any lif= e and unable to rescue my mother from harmful custody by cousins Pradeep Kumar XPlorer +91.6238940417 ________________________________ From: pradeep xplorer Sent: Sunday, July 7, 2019 12:03 PM To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac= .in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1 Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrublof= f.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov= ; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; larrypage@google.com; larry.e= llison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@yogaworks.com; info@agamayo= ga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; = sumbody@sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.go= v; alerts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opporti= llo@globeacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtr= a.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeopathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.co= m; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyoz.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@j= phma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora= @seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; inf= o@homeopathy-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; em= imila@hotmail.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeop= atia.roman@wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-= asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; info@a-r-h.org; info= @th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com; beyoutifu= llivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srszsi@gmail.com; anrc= @zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare= @citi.com; info@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jop= anda@treasurer.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@= sbi.co.in; lorrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov= ; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.in; president@whitehouse= .gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@yogaworks.com; johnjohna= ssociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Guestservices@himalayaninsti= tute.org; spplkd.pol@kerala.gov.in; cihbngrpkd.pol@kerala.gov.in; iucg@ietf= .org Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing My android is not fixed has display problems or OS Problems did not respond= to touch and the parties that repaired it are not working today. I could g= ive only a sip of water to my mother in morning. I have only 550Rs and my m= other need to help me with atleast 8000Rs tomorrow. She has to shift with m= e so she does not lose money to the poor cousins and husbands like sridhar = and balan who are in it for for cybercrime and exploiting me as well. I hav= e expended for her in 90s and 2000s so this is informal arrangement until i= get a solution of end of cybercrime and restoration of life in California. Pradeep Kumar Xplorer ________________________________ From: pradeep xplorer Sent: Saturday, July 6, 2019 6:23 PM To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac= .in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1 Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrublof= f.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov= ; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; larrypage@google.com; larry.e= llison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@yogaworks.com; info@agamayo= ga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; = sumbody@sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.go= v; alerts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opporti= llo@globeacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtr= a.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeopathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.co= m; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyoz.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@j= phma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora= @seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; inf= o@homeopathy-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; em= imila@hotmail.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeop= atia.roman@wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-= asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; info@a-r-h.org; info= @th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com; beyoutifu= llivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srszsi@gmail.com; anrc= @zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare= @citi.com; info@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jop= anda@treasurer.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@= sbi.co.in; lorrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov= ; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.in; president@whitehouse= .gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@yogaworks.com; johnjohna= ssociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Guestservices@himalayaninsti= tute.org; spplkd.pol@kerala.gov.in; cihbngrpkd.pol@kerala.gov.in Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing I entered oldpulappatta house and when enquiring where is the icecream ball= i bought for my mother sridhar verbally attacked me and tried to provoke m= e into a fight. he says he would not allow me to give anything to her or lo= ok after her. I noticed he has extorted some cash to buy her a bedpan and t= o prevent me helping her use the chair stool. I was attacked by sridhar and two sons in Nov 2013 and hospitalised and har= med and i have complained to palakkad district police. I have now a room in= palakkad for 400rs where if they did not object i would have relocated her= . My mothers life is in danger and she has alerady been harmed and drugged = and underfed by sridhar and balan. These prevented me renting in mettupalay= am in end of 2017 and attacked and hospitalised and injured my yoga body. S= ridhar is a criminal medical representative and me and my mother are his vi= ctims. I am a Thai spa yoga class being and i was harmed four times after S= UN was sold to ORACLE. Theres an organisation employed using my websites expending money i should = have expended for my personal life in MountainView California in 2004. They have destroyed my immigration status in USA and preventing me getting = any income funds employment in India and attacked and harmed me. They prevented me from marrying another woman after i broke up with amy rai= nier starkey in April 2001 and used a dead sindhu issue to extort 800000Rs = from my citigold account in bangalore in Aug 2003. Again i suspect they did= not allow sindhu to enjoy it and extorted and build the house in chepilamu= ri. Balan and sridhar have partnered with an organisation exploiting me and slo= wly killing me and my mother. My mother would not have had knee surgery if = she was with me. They underfed her and she fell down and even after knee su= rgery they underfed her and made her fall and injure her head. Its as if ba= lan and sridhar has hurt her head with an axe. I could have discharged her = from sai hospital to a double room instead she is now inside old pulappatta house and they are getting some ca= sh and sometimes food poisoning her. I was prevented from breaking up with = her in 2004 when i should have been reemployed and married to someone else = like amy and i would have fathered children. This is an organised crime exp= loiting use of surname pulappatta and thats an old house that should have b= een dismantled decades ago. Whoever employed world wide using my websites a= re thieves and trying to kill my mother and me. I have no clue why CI of he= mambika nagar is not negotiating me separated from cousins and my mother un= der my care so i can solve my US situation and relocate back. I have only 7= 00Rs and my mother could be used to attack me when i would ask for 10000Rs = day after tomorrow. The informal agreement between me and my mother is she = helping me by 500Rs as i have expended money for her when sun employed and = treated her well in usa for a year and also paid her money. I again suspect sindhu was used to extort 800000Rs from my citigold account= to exploit me and my website publishing and not pay me my money to setttle= in bayarea. Then they created situation where sun was sold to oracle and h= ad me attacked and sindhu married to someone and kannan married rohini. I r= eported to udit chaithanya her life is in danger he ignored now my mother h= as a head wound so i suspect them as well. ANyway its a risk for me being in pulappatta house and my mother should be = with me and the cousins should not bother me. This has to be enforced by lo= cal law enforcement because sridhar is preventing me shifting with her. I = suspect if the 175000Rs she had in SBI was stolen or in an fixed deposit. Please help end this situation Pradeep Kumar Xplorer ________________________________ From: pradeep xplorer Sent: Friday, July 5, 2019 5:56 PM To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac= .in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1 Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrublof= f.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov= ; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; larrypage@google.com; larry.e= llison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@yogaworks.com; info@agamayo= ga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; = sumbody@sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.go= v; alerts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opporti= llo@globeacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtr= a.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeopathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.co= m; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyoz.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@j= phma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora= @seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; inf= o@homeopathy-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; em= imila@hotmail.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeop= atia.roman@wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-= asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; info@a-r-h.org; info= @th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com; beyoutifu= llivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srszsi@gmail.com; anrc= @zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare= @citi.com; info@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jop= anda@treasurer.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@= sbi.co.in; lorrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov= ; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.in; president@whitehouse= .gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@yogaworks.com; johnjohna= ssociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Guestservices@himalayaninsti= tute.org; Police@mountainview.gov Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing These are the events of the day I reported my situation and medical cruelty suffered by my mother to FBI, M= ountainView police, USDOJ, Executive office of immigration review and many = others in this list. Today morning while resting in ashirvad lodge i kept my mobile for charging= and it fell down and display was damaged. I dont know if it was trembled artificially. I we= nt to shop that i purchased it and they wanted 1800Rs. I had only 2200Rs. I went to pulappatta house. Ammini relative of mathrubhumi founder kp kesav= amenon was present After my mother ate lunch she signed 10000Rs for me. She was saying theres = only 3000Rs in it. She did not say who she asked to Create Fixed deposit. I went to malampuzha road SBI and they did not honor the cheque claiming si= gnature mismatch. I suspect who encashed the 100000rs from 275000rs account. They asked me to= get a letter signed by my mother that this is her current signature. I wen= t to the house and sridhar tried to fight with me. Thats a criminal not pun= ished by law enforcement and still used to attack me. Sridhar and two sons = have attacked me in nov 2013 and i reported to palakkad police and nothin= g has been done. So he still attacks me. After attacking me in nov 2013 hi = two sons got employed. I suspect Sridhar and sons must have attacked my mot= her as well. The two sons look well fed like fighters. Sridhar tried to att= ack me when exiting also and autodriver farooq saw it. I suspect sarala has= food poisoned her also. Her vital energy is less. Sridhar is a criminal th= at has harmed my mother using hospitals and harmed me also using allopathic= hospitals and getting away with it. Because of the Sridhar sarala shylaja = balan i am not able to heal my mother give her an enema or massage or heal = her by health food and i accuse them as being allowed to slowly kill my mot= her and they would kill me too. Sridhar threatened me that i should not sta= y anywhere and sleep there. Sridhar and the BJP RSS are criminals that has = prevented me marrying anyone using a sindhu issue and all of them need to b= e executed. They want all my money as ancestral wealth. Sridhar informed me= he would attack me wherever i am if i dont go to that house and sridhar ba= lan and many criminals are allowed to interact with my mother and believe i= am a disabled and used her to attack me. Today evening my life is in dange= r. Its an organisation of executable shameless thieves calling me poor by a= llowing many criminals like sridhar to prevent the old pulappatta house bei= ng disposed and to prove i am poor who was born there or something. Its because of VK sushllkumar and his childrens poverty that house is not d= isposed.Sridhar also threatened me that if i dont show up they would move m= y mother to an unknown location where i would never meet her. They want all of my money as KP Visalakshies wealth and steal it. They star= ted the shaktheyam movement to steal my money using her and a sindhu issue = and prevented sale of leela vilas and created a durga temple and stealing m= oney. I suspect Sridhar and balan and many criminals must have held my moth= er hostage and prevented me meeting with her when i was back from rishikesh= and then cruelly detained me in bethsada hospital and is unforgivable. I s= uspect her leg fracture is because of being attacked and malnutrition and f= ood poison. shylaja balan sridhar sarala need to be prosecuted to end medic= al cruelty against my mother and me. After getting the letter the bank foun= d she had only 3000Rs and send a man to get a fingerprint and she gave me o= nly 2000Rs. Sridhar did not try and attack me in front of that man. I expre= ssed i am an SBI customer who lost some money to SBI account holders and = SBI has not returned it thats why i shouted at them. I am worried that my m= other has been held hostage in 2015 and she has been cruelly treated and sh= e has deep fear thats why i am not able to get her consent to solve the cri= me. I suspect balan must have had some device to make her fall or something= first time. Second time she fell down because of malnutrition. malabarhosp= itals has to be invetsigated if it is giving money to sridhar or employing = anyone related to sridhar balan etc. Sridhar has attacked me and would attack me again. That house has to be sol= d and some money given to my mother and if they think they owe me money to = me also. I dont owe them any money and if my money has been used to help th= em its theft. many like sridhar are preventing me being married and fatheri= ng a child and trying to execute me using palakkad raj saga and spicing it= with stories like krakatao Please help Pradeep Kumar Xplorer ________________________________ From: pradeep xplorer Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2019 5:55 AM To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac= .in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1 Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrublof= f.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov= ; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; larrypage@google.com; larry.e= llison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@yogaworks.com; info@agamayo= ga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; = sumbody@sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.go= v; alerts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opporti= llo@globeacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtr= a.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeopathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.co= m; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyoz.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@j= phma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora= @seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; inf= o@homeopathy-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; em= imila@hotmail.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeop= atia.roman@wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-= asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; info@a-r-h.org; info= @th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com; beyoutifu= llivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srszsi@gmail.com; anrc= @zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare= @citi.com; info@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jop= anda@treasurer.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@= sbi.co.in; lorrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov= ; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.in; president@whitehouse= .gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@yogaworks.com; johnjohna= ssociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Guestservices@himalayaninsti= tute.org; Police@mountainview.gov Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing I am writing this from a double bedroom in aiswarya lodge one past namaskar= lodge in ksrtc busstand area. I entered old pulappatta house and i have tw= eeted the photos. It's an old house and not really inhabitable. I spend abo= ut half an hour there. My mother is inside a room again in some sort of kha= Di bed I observed these.. Sarala did not let me give bottle water.. when it opened some aquachill wat= er she took some water she has made like chukku vellam and gave it to her. = I bought some rheumaheal ointment and massaged her leg. Fbi has directed me= to call usa dept of state. So she is with sridhar and sarala and whatever = they give as food would enter her body. It's like very dirty house to me wi= th newer buildings all around. My mother asked me to go to rohinivilla and = sleep up that's not acceptible to me. In dialed her at about 130 am and she= has not picked up. She must have been fed congi in evening. When i was the= re sarala gave her horlicks and is took a sip. My stomach did not like it i= nstantly and is have a slight skin problem in right feet. Thats the old hou= se weLl water entering her body. I am posting photos of my current room in = my tweets right now Pradeep kumar xplorer ________________________________ From: pradeep xplorer Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2019 2:43:12 PM To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac= .in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1 Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrublof= f.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov= ; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; larrypage@google.com; larry.e= llison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@yogaworks.com; info@agamayo= ga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; = sumbody@sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.go= v; alerts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opporti= llo@globeacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtr= a.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeopathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.co= m; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyoz.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@j= phma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora= @seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; inf= o@homeopathy-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; em= imila@hotmail.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeop= atia.roman@wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-= asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; info@a-r-h.org; info= @th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com; beyoutifu= llivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srszsi@gmail.com; anrc= @zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare= @citi.com; info@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jop= anda@treasurer.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@= sbi.co.in; lorrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov= ; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.in; president@whitehouse= .gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@yogaworks.com; johnjohna= ssociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Guestservices@himalayaninsti= tute.org; Police@mountainview.gov Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing Despite my persistence because of selfish interests of sarala sridhar shyle= sh balan shylaja and all related to them my mother is in old pulappatta house. My phone stopped charging. They are d= escendants of late VK sushil kumar and not letting me go. I am worried about her being food poison and druggin= g and future hospitalisation. I have 8000Rs room and i can heal my mother and deal with other things. When i called my mothe= r the phone was switched off and when i called sarala my mother picked up p= hone. I have no home and just 4300rs now. My mother should give me 20000Rs tomorrow and i can take care of her in the= room near KSRTC busstand with clean restrooms and bed to rest. She needs t= o eat hop to a stool.. helped to change diapers and with health food and dr= inks her knees would heal.Meanwhile i can pursue my interests of relocating to calif= ornia and my website Please help that this is enforced. Pradeep Kumar Xplorer ________________________________ From: pradeep xplorer Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2019 11:52 AM To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac= .in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1 Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrublof= f.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov= ; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; larrypage@google.com; larry.e= llison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@yogaworks.com; info@agamayo= ga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; = sumbody@sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.go= v; alerts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opporti= llo@globeacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtr= a.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeopathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.co= m; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyoz.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@j= phma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora= @seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; inf= o@homeopathy-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; em= imila@hotmail.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeop= atia.roman@wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-= asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; info@a-r-h.org; info= @th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com; beyoutifu= llivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srszsi@gmail.com; anrc= @zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare= @citi.com; info@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jop= anda@treasurer.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@= sbi.co.in; lorrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov= ; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.in; president@whitehouse= .gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@yogaworks.com; johnjohna= ssociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Guestservices@himalayaninsti= tute.org; Police@mountainview.gov Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing Please enforce that my motehr is not discharged to old pulappatta or rohini= villa as it would result in more harm and her death. I can 24/7 take care o= f her for a month in a double bed room in ksrtc area namaskar lodge where w= e both have stayed before.I am going to take a look at the room now. The co= usins are problematic and depending on her and me and surname and it need t= o be ended. Its extreme civil rights abuse for me not being able to separat= e from the cousins that too that has attacked me and my mother as well. I am writing this from ayappa travels.. I am charging my mobile now. My mother wont get good food and would collapse from food poisoning if take= n care by sarala sridhar balan shylaja or shylesh. They are criminals intruding 24/7 and not selling old pulappatta house also I have reported to palakkad police i have been attacked by sridhar and sons= and balan and kannan. So why is this continuing. Pradeep Kumar Xplorer ________________________________ From: pradeep xplorer Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2019 8:55 AM To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac= .in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1 Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrublof= f.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov= ; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; larrypage@google.com; larry.e= llison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@yogaworks.com; info@agamayo= ga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; = sumbody@sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.go= v; alerts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opporti= llo@globeacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtr= a.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeopathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.co= m; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyoz.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@j= phma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora= @seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; inf= o@homeopathy-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; em= imila@hotmail.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeop= atia.roman@wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-= asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; info@a-r-h.org; info= @th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com; beyoutifu= llivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srszsi@gmail.com; anrc= @zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare= @citi.com; info@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jop= anda@treasurer.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@= sbi.co.in; lorrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov= ; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.in; president@whitehouse= .gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@yogaworks.com; johnjohna= ssociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Guestservices@himalayaninsti= tute.org; Police@mountainview.gov Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing I ate upma and fried egg from indian coffee house. I packed upma as it was = healthy good quality. I took an auto to make sure it enters my mothers body= . The criminals sridhar and sarala prevented it by sending a wheat dosa put= rid I spat out after one bite. My mother also made some sound eating it . I= gave her upma without chutney or Sambar and still she complained because o= f them sending dosa. My mother complained the upma is spicy or hot or chill= y but it did not have chilly and it was not hot. Sara the disturbed me givi= ng food by saying eat drugs. The upma was finally consumed by sharat. Shara= t should say yes to my request for help and shift her to double room. Inste= ad I am worried he thinks me and my mother killed his father. Sridhar saral= a shylaja balan kannan sridhars two sons are dangerous criminals to me that= has already managed to harm me and my mother and inflict too much cruelty = on both of us.. it has to be enforced for her safety that she is separated = from them and i am separated from them so I can take care of her and reloca= te. I gave letter that John george gave to Hemambika nagar police station. It's dangerous for my mother to be shifted to rohinivilla or pulappatta hou= se they would underfed her food poison her prevent me taking care of her an= d repeatedly put her under care of allopathic hospitals until she is dead. = My mother should be healed and made assertive and made to enjoy life and ch= ose holistic healing modalities Pradeep kumar xplorer 91.6238940417 ________________________________ From: pradeep xplorer Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2019 7:49:36 AM To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac= .in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1 Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrublof= f.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov= ; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; larrypage@google.com; larry.e= llison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@yogaworks.com; info@agamayo= ga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; = sumbody@sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.go= v; alerts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opporti= llo@globeacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtr= a.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeopathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.co= m; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyoz.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@j= phma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora= @seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; inf= o@homeopathy-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; em= imila@hotmail.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeop= atia.roman@wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-= asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; info@a-r-h.org; info= @th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com; beyoutifu= llivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srszsi@gmail.com; anrc= @zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare= @citi.com; info@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jop= anda@treasurer.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@= sbi.co.in; lorrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov= ; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.in; president@whitehouse= .gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@yogaworks.com; johnjohna= ssociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Guestservices@himalayaninsti= tute.org Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing I have given the letter written by shameera from John George's office to he= mambika nagar police. My mother should not Ingest anything made by shylaja = or their ensure congi milk and for that matter anyone food by cousins. I wa= nt to prevent further injuries and danger to her life she be discharged fro= m sai hospital to a double room in namaskar lodge for a month for 8000rs wh= ich is only 3000rs and it be enforced that she be dedrugged and given a cho= ice to chose treatment modality of ayurveda homoeo or spa yoga massage clas= s or naturopathy any thing other than allopathic. Sridhar and balan are dan= gerous that has harmed me and my mother using doctors and trying to execute= us Pradeep kumar xplorer 91.6238940417 ________________________________ From: pradeep xplorer Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 5:35:33 PM To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac= .in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1 Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrublof= f.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov= ; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; larrypage@google.com; larry.e= llison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@yogaworks.com; info@agamayo= ga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; = sumbody@sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.go= v; alerts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opporti= llo@globeacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtr= a.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeopathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.co= m; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyoz.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@j= phma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora= @seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; inf= o@homeopathy-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; em= imila@hotmail.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeop= atia.roman@wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-= asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; info@a-r-h.org; info= @th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com; beyoutifu= llivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srszsi@gmail.com; anrc= @zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare= @citi.com; info@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jop= anda@treasurer.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@= sbi.co.in; lorrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov= ; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.in; president@whitehouse= .gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@yogaworks.com Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing Balan entered here and tried to attack me saying i did not change my dress.= They are trying to food poison my mother. I am a person who washes clothes= and use them i use only one pair. I washed my tshirt and underwear and kha= ki pants is OK. They are now preventing me from giving the tender coconut. = Balan is a criminal trying to execute my mother and suspect behind this cri= me. My mother is again given saline. I have contacted the local authorities= of akathethara 91.491.2555208 they should charge balan for injuring my mot= hers head by underfeeding her. Balan sarala sridhar shylaja are the crimina= ls. My mothers body cannot be a quality testing ground. They are hovering o= ver her and i dont like it. I am an adult who does not have to see any of t= hese. In addition if these extorted the money I paid to sindhu in 2003 it i= s a major crime in which sindhu also might have been injured by these. Thes= e have prevented me from giving her tender coconut. I have cared for my mot= her and treated her for a year in mountianview using my income. And she wan= ted me here. So she did not keep tabs and helping me.these are preventing m= e being helped by her.i have no idea who has taken my money or why i cannot= have an income from yoga and software. Please request kunjikavu to appear = and help my mother to bsnl quarters some room. My mother would die if fed b= y them. Sarala and balan are criminals now claiming I am harming her or som= ething. These are shameless criminals promoted by some international crimin= al organisation using a surname usage and thieves Pradeep kumar xplorer ________________________________ From: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 4:56:37 PM To: rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilatesAssociation@gmail.com; = info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpol@vsnl.com; info@qatarair= ways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns.gov.in; press@interpol.i= nt; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac.in; supremecourt@nic.in;= mukundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1; pradeep xplorer Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrublof= f.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov= ; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; larrypage@google.com; larry.e= llison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@yogaworks.com; info@agamayo= ga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; = sumbody@sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.go= v; alerts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opporti= llo@globeacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtr= a.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeopathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.co= m; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyoz.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@j= phma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora= @seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; inf= o@homeopathy-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; em= imila@hotmail.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeop= atia.roman@wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-= asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; info@a-r-h.org; info= @th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com; beyoutifu= llivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srszsi@gmail.com; anrc= @zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare= @citi.com; info@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jop= anda@treasurer.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@= sbi.co.in; lorrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov= ; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.in; president@whitehouse= .gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@yogaworks.com Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing I managed to avoid food poison or anything from shylaja for my mother by be= ing here i gave her chai from down and idli from down and prevented sarala = from giving ensure. I talked to the spectacled doctor and my mother agreed = to drink horlicks with hot water. But i had to fight with sarala . I suspec= t they are having an income by maintaining the old pulappatta house which i= s like the only common wealth .. I owe nothing from pradeep kumar pulappatt= a accounts or pradeep kumar xplorer accounts to them. I left to avoid them = and i dont know what sarala gave. She vomited some time earlier I am trilli= on times certain she won't vomit anything if she is in kaliappa hotel or al= athur hotel in a room under my care so this is crime by local law enforcers= in akathethara hemambika nagar police station or whoever keeping my money = as common wealth. It could be a planned attack by sarala and shylesh who to= me are poor because they created children and i dont have even one. It's a= crime that mountain view police is unable to help or not helping or the us= embassies not enforcing and continuing harm to me and my mother. I do not = want any of vk sushilkumar and kp saradas children or their connections giv= ing anything to my mother as i suspect they may want to execute her. There = cannot be any room for chance. This has to be enforced at the level I am r= eporting Pradeep kumar xplorer Sent from MailDroid -----Original Message----- From: pradeep xplorer To: "pradeep@dhyanayoga.info" , "rwalker@scscourt.= org" , "icann@icann.org" , "USPilate= sAssociation@gmail.com" , "info@pilates.org= .au" , "office@brietenbush.com" , "delpol@vsnl.com" , "info@qatarairways.qa" , "directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in" ,= "dgp@tncctns.gov.in" , "press@interpol.int" , "info@archive.org" , "rkumar.kpm@nic.in" , "sasi@cdac.in" , "supremecourt@nic.in" , "mukundram2007@gmail.com" , IMB = Recipient 1 Cc: "scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil" = , "ladyofmanynames@gmail.com" , "ardenfire@yahoo= .com" , "sovereignamber@hotmail.com" , "fmcreative@fantasymakers.com" ,= "oig.hotline@ssa.gov" , "ssa.comments@ssa.gov" , "efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com" , "ehc@lighthouse-sf.org" , "rajik= .sharma@hdfcbank.com" , "dwestergreen@koenigrubl= off.com" , "amy@amytanathorn.com" , "amyji2@gmail.com" , "dmvmediarelations@dm= v.ca.gov" , "zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com" , "scottm@wayin.com" , "larrypage@goo= gle.com" , "larry.ellison@oracle.com" , "info@yogaalliance.org" , "info@yogawor= ks.com" , "info@agamayoga.com" , "m= ail@ashtangayoga.info" , "hilaryacer@gmail.com" , "info@yogasource.com" , "sumbody@= sumbody.com" , "askvisa@visa.com" , = "askvisausa@visa.com" , "askdoj@usdoj.gov" , "alerts@wellsfargo.com" , "john.c.gerspach@= citi.com" , "deptc@jcap.com" , "o= pportillo@globeacceptance.com" , "abuse@cha= se.com" , "pao.eoir@usdoj.gov" , "admi= nnzch@xtra.co.nz" , "chcadmin@comcast.net" , "info@homeopathyhongkong.org" , = "nashinfo@aol.com" , "ocharmenia@mail.com" , "admin@homeopathyoz.org" , "accueil@sphq.o= rg" , "office@jphma.org" , "info@ligaho= meopatica.be" , "bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com" , "homeopat.komora@seznam.cz" ,= "dskh@homeopati.dk" , "toimisto@homeopaatit.fi" , "office@vkhd.de" , "info@homeopathy-gre= ece.gr" , "ishom@eircom.net" ,= "info@corporazioneomeopati.org" , "emimila@= hotmail.com" , "mcutajar@maltanet.net" , "info@nvkh.nl" , "nhl@c2i.net" , "home= opatia.roman@wp.pl" , "aph.lxp@gmail.com" , "homeons@neobee.net" , "rada@homeopaticka-a= sociacia.sk" , "info@aehu.es" , "info@sakh.se" , "info@hvs.ch" , "info@a-r-h.= org" , "info@the-hma.org" , "info@homeopa= thy-soh.org" , "pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com" , "beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com" , "benefits.application@ssa.gov" , = "srszsi@gmail.com" , "anrc@zsi.gov.in" ,= "nrc@zsi.gov.in" , "hr@harbin.org" , "info@= olt.org" , "head.customercare@citi.com" , "info@jennervacationrentals.com" ,= "info@kinoyoga.com" , "Geneveive.jopanda@treasurer.ca.g= ov" , "dtocbe@nic.in" , = "agaekarnataka@cag.gov" , "Contactcentre@sbi.co.in" = , "lorrett@fantasymakers.com" , "Care@jio.com" , "gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov" , SPMC PHQ , "PHQ.pol@kerala.gov= .in" , "igadm@crpf.gov.in" , "pre= sident@whitehouse.gov" , "Kumaarj5@Gmail.com" , "Mumbaif@state.gov" , "Megan@yogawork= s.com" Sent: Mon, 01 Jul 2019 12:23 Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing Hello These are the events that again made me very disturbed. I tweeted in @pradeepxplorer1 that i was in a long beach hotel cabin with s= ee through glasses that i can see from inside but from outside they cannot see me..I was in a = double room with double bed that i paid 3000Rs and i was all alone and i did not have a girl frend or w= oman to enjoy the beach and evening and i posted in my website this is 2010 december past 20th i think and i ha= d explodingmoon.org only dhyanayoga.info was not available for registration and i recieved an email = from bkvarma88@hotmail.com that my mother got hospitalised and i am worried= if balan or sridhar or bharat or their connections attacked her. I had to = call from phone and my mother was admitted for second umbilical hernia operation i su= spect sirdhar and bharat was in touch and i suspect all of those are criminals claiming money from me using sindh= u and has some control over some funds or stealing my subscribers help using my domains claiming i am w= ealthy as Ex sun employee. After that tweet saraal entered the hospital and i started getting disturbe= d as she is not there to just visit but to ensure my mother is food poisoned or eat what she brings and they ca= n do anything. My mother was food poisoned by shylaja resulting in her eating very very less food,, one idli = in morning and one glass of rice water for lunch and one glass of milk for dinner, she lost ten kilogram and sensing that i trie= d to eat her my kind of food and balan attacked me. Balan has attacked me inside govt homoe kalpathy hospital and = also inside sai hospital yesterday. My mothers life would be in danger as she is already weak if she is shifted= back to rohinivilla. Kunjikav teacher my mothers colleague came and visited her and with her was some bsnl staff = jayakumar. It would be best if they can relocate to her a room somewhere there. I am willing to travel with her= to US airport and fly out with the help of US embassy chennai. I again assertively declare i am sole = owner author authority or dhyanayoga.info explodingmoon.org pradeepkumarxplorer.com and that money and fact is suffic= ient for me to live in USA with US citizenship with my mother or whatever status. Its not acceptible t= his case dispute uncertainty indecision continued another day. It would lea= d to my mothers death. The local police in akathethara is partner to this c= rime as they have partnered with attacking and hospitalising me after SUN was so= ld to ORACLE and even now not acknowledging me as author owner of websites dhyanayoga.info exploding= moon.org pradeepkumarxplorer.com This is what happened after sarala entered hospital (sai hospital room 20 o= lavakkode palakkad) She kept on asking her to drink ensure I reported that she should not give her ensure.. My mother had vomitted it = the day before she fell down. I am certain there was food poison I am certain the congi shylaja sends is low grade or with food poison I am certain Balan Kannan Sridhar two sons would not admit that they attack= ed me and would continue to attack me and do things to extort cash from my mother. I am sure they are not my wellwishers and trying to murder me and my mother= . Sarala and shylaja are partners to it. Bharat indira are also partners to it. If they are taking money paid to me its a very cruel crime that cannot be f= orgiven. Sarala started fighting with me and threatened me she would call someone to= attack me and called sridhar shylesh and when doctor entered i mentioned the ensure had food poison and should n= ot be given to my mother or the congi and the doctor agreed when i talked to him objectively. I then made horlick= s with hotwater. My mother had to be discharged to a different room with he= lp of kunjikavu or anyone like that i should get a solution to take her to = the airport and with help of uS embassies fly back to USa and get money/emp= loyment and lead my life. Sridhar and two sons Balan kannan has attacked me and still i have to see t= hem. yesterday balan and shylesh tried to attack me. shankaravarmas wife objected to me not changing pants. I also mentioned bluehost.com is not changing registrant contact of three d= omains to +91.6238940417. Please free the suspects accounts so that they dont have money to continue = this crime against me and my mother I am writing from ayyappa travels and i am just a customer here. Pradeep Kumar Xplorer +91.6238940417 --_000_MAXPR01MB230444A51AE447BE55968E8AB7F10MAXPR01MB2304INDP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You tried to buy gayathri akathethara  palakkad and was prevented by b= harat to buy it as they had some agenda for building the gate. Those with s= urname of pulappatta are not my family but the us Cbp has forced me to sign= a form I 407 in which surname is shown as family name.  I suspect theft of 65 billion dollars from sunw comp= any in 2007 using my domains and then instead of employing me in california= they forced me to surrender usa pr status and they would want all my websi= tes disabled and both me and my mother dead. I really don't know if things would have been different if you bough= t it.
I have been attacked four times and yoga body injured in low class allopath= ic hospitals after sun was sold to oracle.  Sun is a company like micr= osoft and should have survived.

From: pradeep xplorer <p= radeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Monday, July 8, 2019 1:51:16 PM
To: jkkottarathodi@gmail.com
Subject: Fw: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and= openly towards executing me and my mother continuing
 
I am stuck here because of some crime using surname used that i changed in = 2009.. That bharat is cousin indiras husband and has built a gate into gaya= tri. I am sole registrant owner author of my domains dhyanayoga.info since = 2004, explodingmoon.org since 2008 and pradeepkumarxplorer.com since 2013. You can google me. A criminal blac= k company organisation is operating my money using my websites and i have z= ero subscriber help. My mother and me are poor. SOme fraud is happening usi= ng the gayatri akathethara palakkad address which is still in my indian passport and aadhar card, thats expire= d address. I have no contacts with anyone in India and trying to return to = california with my mother. I am a 14 year MountainView resident.. I have be= en attacked four times and hospitalised and harmed since Jan 2010. My yoga body has been repeatedly injured.
If you look at IUCG ietf.org archives i have disputed with bharat as well.<= /div>
I need to be helped to get my funds money get my life back in California
Pradeep Kumar XPlorer
http://twitter.com/PradeepXplorer1
+91.6238940417


From: pradeep xplorer <= ;pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Monday, July 8, 2019 1:27 PM
To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; = USPilatesAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com= ; delpol@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@= tncctns.gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac.in; supremecourt@nic.in; mu= kundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1
Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ar= denfire@yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com= ; oig.hotline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representativ= e.com; ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dm= vmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; lar= rypage@google.com; larry.ellison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@y= ogaworks.com; info@agamayoga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; sumbody= @sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.gov; aler= ts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opportillo@glo= beacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeo= pathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.com; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyo= z.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@jphma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_hom= eopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora@seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; info@homeopath= y-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; emimila@hotma= il.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeopatia.roman@= wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; i= nfo@a-r-h.org; info@th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfc= bank.com; beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srs= zsi@gmail.com; anrc@zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare@citi.com; i= nfo@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jopanda@treasur= er.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@sbi.co.in; l= orrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.= in; president@whitehouse.gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@= yogaworks.com; johnjohnassociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Gues= tservices@himalayaninstitute.org; spplkd.pol@kerala.gov.in; cihbngrpkd.pol@kerala.gov.in; iucg@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and= openly towards executing me and my mother continuing
 
This is OLX Mobiles number.. I have a dispute with them. They did not fix m= y samsung J2 and extorted 1600rs from me when i am in danger zone with too = little cash. The android is not working.. Theres a small crack on display. = It had a blue covering when i picked it up. I removed it day before yesterday and there was a crack. I managed = to get 8000Rs from my mother. I helped her use bedpan and could remove agai= n ten grams of faeces.. Her anus is clogged. May be she would accept an ene= ma from me tomorrow but at the same time i am unhappy she is stuck in that place and the variabales for the cr= ime are too much. I am saying my money is expended by palakkad raj or some = organisation without any fear and they want me dead.. 

The man now in OLX mobiles opposite chennai mobiles in Post office junction= palakkad was very rude. This is the number displayed. OLX Mobiles +91.= 7756364676

VK shankaravarma has entered pulappatta house after i helped my mother use = bedpan.

I dont like this prolonged. I have a temporary solution. Morning i ate idli= in Indraprastha but they poisoned me in coffee and i have heart congestion= . 

I have to get a 4G device to use my JIO sim. A shop has agreed to take it f= or 1000Rs and give something else for their price. The 4G J4 they are askin= g 4800 so i have to give 3800Rs thats too much. I said to take it for 3000R= s. I am poor now because of crime continuing. I am without woman or any life and unable to rescue my mother = from harmful custody by cousins

Pradeep Kumar XPlorer
+91.6238940417

From: pradeep xplorer <= ;pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 7, 2019 12:03 PM
To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; = USPilatesAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com= ; delpol@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@= tncctns.gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac.in; supremecourt@nic.in; mu= kundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1
Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ar= denfire@yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com= ; oig.hotline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representativ= e.com; ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dm= vmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; lar= rypage@google.com; larry.ellison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@y= ogaworks.com; info@agamayoga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; sumbody= @sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.gov; aler= ts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opportillo@glo= beacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeo= pathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.com; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyo= z.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@jphma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_hom= eopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora@seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; info@homeopath= y-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; emimila@hotma= il.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeopatia.roman@= wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; i= nfo@a-r-h.org; info@th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfc= bank.com; beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srs= zsi@gmail.com; anrc@zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare@citi.com; i= nfo@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jopanda@treasur= er.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@sbi.co.in; l= orrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.= in; president@whitehouse.gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@= yogaworks.com; johnjohnassociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Gues= tservices@himalayaninstitute.org; spplkd.pol@kerala.gov.in; cihbngrpkd.pol@kerala.gov.in; iucg@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and= openly towards executing me and my mother continuing
 
My android is not fixed has display problems or OS Problems did not respond= to touch and the parties that repaired it are not working today. I could g= ive only a sip of water to my mother in morning. I have only 550Rs and my m= other need to help me with atleast 8000Rs tomorrow. She has to shift with me so she does not lose money to th= e poor cousins and husbands like sridhar and balan who are in it for for cy= bercrime and exploiting me as well. I have expended for her in 90s and 2000= s so this is informal arrangement until i get a solution of end of cybercrime and restoration of life in Cal= ifornia.
Pradeep Kumar Xplorer

From: pradeep xplorer &= lt;pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 6, 2019 6:23 PM
To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; = USPilatesAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com= ; delpol@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@= tncctns.gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac.in; supremecourt@nic.in; mu= kundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1
Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ar= denfire@yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com= ; oig.hotline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representativ= e.com; ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dm= vmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; lar= rypage@google.com; larry.ellison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@y= ogaworks.com; info@agamayoga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; sumbody= @sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.gov; aler= ts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opportillo@glo= beacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeo= pathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.com; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyo= z.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@jphma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_hom= eopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora@seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; info@homeopath= y-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; emimila@hotma= il.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeopatia.roman@= wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; i= nfo@a-r-h.org; info@th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfc= bank.com; beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srs= zsi@gmail.com; anrc@zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare@citi.com; i= nfo@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jopanda@treasur= er.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@sbi.co.in; l= orrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.= in; president@whitehouse.gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@= yogaworks.com; johnjohnassociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Gues= tservices@himalayaninstitute.org; spplkd.pol@kerala.gov.in; cihbngrpkd.pol@kerala.gov.in
Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and= openly towards executing me and my mother continuing
 
I entered oldpulappatta house and when enquiring where is the icecream ball= i bought for my mother sridhar verbally attacked me and tried to provoke m= e into a fight. he says he would not allow me to give anything to her or lo= ok after her. I noticed he has extorted some cash to buy her a bedpan and to prevent me helping her use the chair = stool.
I was attacked by sridhar and two sons in Nov 2013 and hospitalised and har= med and i have complained to palakkad district police. I have now a room in= palakkad for 400rs where if they did not object i would have relocated her= . My mothers life is in danger and she has alerady been harmed and drugged and underfed by sridhar and balan.= These prevented me renting in mettupalayam in end of 2017 and attacked and= hospitalised and injured my yoga body. Sridhar is a criminal medical repre= sentative and me and my mother are his victims. I am a Thai spa yoga class being and i was harmed four times = after SUN was sold to ORACLE.
Theres an organisation employed using my websites expending money i sh= ould have expended for my personal life in MountainView California in 2004.=
They have destroyed my immigration status in USA and preventing me get= ting any income funds employment in India and attacked and harmed me.
They prevented me from marrying another woman after i broke up with am= y rainier starkey in April 2001 and used a dead sindhu issue to extort 8000= 00Rs from my citigold account in bangalore in Aug 2003. Again i suspect they did not allow sindhu to enjoy it and ext= orted and build the house in chepilamuri.
Balan and sridhar have partnered with an organisation exploiting me an= d slowly killing me and my mother. My mother would not have had knee surger= y if she was with me. They underfed her and she fell down and even after knee surgery they underfed her and made h= er fall and injure her head. Its as if balan and sridhar has hurt her head = with an axe. I could have discharged her from sai hospital to a double room=
instead she is now inside old pulappatta house and they are getting so= me cash and sometimes food poisoning her. I was prevented from breaking up = with her in 2004 when i should have been reemployed and married to someone else like amy and i would have fathered = children. This is an organised crime exploiting use of surname pulappatta a= nd thats an old house that should have been dismantled decades ago. Whoever= employed world wide using my websites are thieves and trying to kill my mother and me. I have no clue why CI of = hemambika nagar is not negotiating me separated from cousins and my mother = under my care so i can solve my US situation and relocate back. I have only= 700Rs and my mother could be used to attack me when i would ask for 10000Rs day after tomorrow. The informal= agreement between me and my mother is she helping me by 500Rs as i have ex= pended money for her when sun employed and treated her well in usa for a ye= ar and also paid her money. 
I again suspect sindhu was used to extort 800000Rs from my citigold ac= count to exploit me and my website publishing and not pay me my money to se= tttle in bayarea. Then they created situation where sun was sold to oracle and had me attacked and sindhu married to som= eone and kannan married rohini. I reported to udit chaithanya her life is i= n danger he ignored now my mother has a head wound so i suspect them as wel= l.
ANyway its a risk for me being in pulappatta house and my mother shoul= d be with me and the cousins should not bother me. This has to be enforced = by local law enforcement because sridhar is preventing me shifting with her.  I suspect if the 175000Rs she ha= d in SBI was stolen or in an fixed deposit. 

Please help end this situation
Pradeep Kumar Xplorer

From: pradeep xplorer= <pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Friday, July 5, 2019 5:56 PM
To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; = USPilatesAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com= ; delpol@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@= tncctns.gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac.in; supremecourt@nic.in; mu= kundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1
Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ar= denfire@yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com= ; oig.hotline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representativ= e.com; ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dm= vmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; lar= rypage@google.com; larry.ellison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@y= ogaworks.com; info@agamayoga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; sumbody= @sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.gov; aler= ts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opportillo@glo= beacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeo= pathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.com; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyo= z.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@jphma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_hom= eopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora@seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; info@homeopath= y-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; emimila@hotma= il.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeopatia.roman@= wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; i= nfo@a-r-h.org; info@th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfc= bank.com; beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srs= zsi@gmail.com; anrc@zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare@citi.com; i= nfo@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jopanda@treasur= er.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@sbi.co.in; l= orrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.= in; president@whitehouse.gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@= yogaworks.com; johnjohnassociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Gues= tservices@himalayaninstitute.org; Police@mountainview.gov
Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and= openly towards executing me and my mother continuing
 
These are the events of the day
I reported my situation and medical cruelty suffered by my mother to FBI, M= ountainView police, USDOJ, Executive office of immigration review and many = others in this list.
Today morning while resting in ashirvad lodge i kept my mobile for charging= and it fell down
and display was damaged. I dont know if it was trembled artificially. = I went to shop that i purchased it
and they wanted 1800Rs. I had only 2200Rs. 
I went to pulappatta house. Ammini relative of mathrubhumi founder kp kesav= amenon was present
After my mother ate lunch she signed 10000Rs for me. She was saying theres = only 3000Rs in it.
She did not say who she asked to Create Fixed deposit.
I went to malampuzha road SBI and they did not honor the cheque claiming si= gnature mismatch.
I suspect who encashed the 100000rs from 275000rs account. They asked me to= get a letter signed by my mother that this is her current signature. I wen= t to the house and sridhar tried to fight with me. Thats a criminal not pun= ished by law enforcement and still used to attack me. Sridhar and two sons have attacked me  in nov 2013= and i reported  to palakkad police and nothing has been done. So he s= till attacks me. After attacking me in nov 2013 hi two sons got employed. I= suspect Sridhar and sons must have attacked my mother as well. The two sons look well fed like fighters. Sridhar tried= to attack me when exiting also and autodriver farooq saw it. I suspect sar= ala has food poisoned her also. Her vital energy is less. Sridhar is a crim= inal that has harmed my mother using hospitals and harmed me also using allopathic hospitals and getting away w= ith it. Because of the Sridhar sarala shylaja balan i am not able to heal m= y mother give her an enema or massage or heal her by health food and i accu= se them as being allowed to slowly kill my mother and they would kill me too. Sridhar threatened me that i sh= ould not stay anywhere and sleep there. Sridhar and the BJP RSS are crimina= ls that has prevented me marrying anyone using a sindhu issue and all of th= em need to be executed. They want all my money as ancestral wealth. Sridhar informed me he would attack me w= herever i am if i dont go to that house and sridhar balan and many criminal= s are allowed to interact with my mother and believe i am a disabled and us= ed her to attack me. Today evening my life is in danger. Its an organisation of executable shameless thieves = calling me poor by allowing many criminals like sridhar to prevent the old = pulappatta house being disposed and to prove i am poor who was born there o= r something.
Its because of VK sushllkumar and his childrens poverty that house is not d= isposed.Sridhar also threatened me that if i dont show up they would move m= y mother to an unknown location where i would never meet her.
They want all of my money as KP Visalakshies wealth and steal it. They star= ted the shaktheyam movement to steal my money using her and a sindhu issue = and prevented sale of leela vilas and created a durga temple and stealing m= oney. I suspect Sridhar and balan and many criminals must have held my mother hostage and prevented me meeti= ng with her when i was back from rishikesh and then cruelly detained me in = bethsada hospital and is unforgivable. I suspect her leg fracture is becaus= e of being attacked and malnutrition and food poison. shylaja balan sridhar sarala need to be prosecuted to end= medical cruelty against my mother and me. After getting the letter the ban= k found she had only 3000Rs and send a man to get a fingerprint and she gav= e me only 2000Rs. Sridhar did not try and attack me in front of that man. I expressed i am an  SBI = ; customer who lost some money to SBI account holders and SBI has not retur= ned it thats why i shouted at them. I am worried that my mother has been he= ld hostage in 2015 and she has been cruelly treated and she has deep fear thats why i am not able to get her consent t= o solve the crime. I suspect balan must have had some device to make her fa= ll or something first time. Second time she fell down because of malnutriti= on. malabarhospitals has to be invetsigated if it is giving money to sridhar or employing anyone related to sridhar ba= lan etc.
Sridhar has attacked me and would attack me again. That house has to be sol= d and some money given to my mother and if they think they owe me money to = me also. I dont owe them any money and if my money has been used to help th= em its theft. many like sridhar are preventing me being married and fathering a child and  trying to = execute me using palakkad raj saga and spicing it with stories like krakata= o
Please help
Pradeep Kumar Xplorer



From: pradeep xplor= er <pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2019 5:55 AM
To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; = USPilatesAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com= ; delpol@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@= tncctns.gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac.in; supremecourt@nic.in; mu= kundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient 1
Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ar= denfire@yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com= ; oig.hotline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representativ= e.com; ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dm= vmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; lar= rypage@google.com; larry.ellison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@y= ogaworks.com; info@agamayoga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; sumbody= @sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.gov; aler= ts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opportillo@glo= beacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeo= pathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.com; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyo= z.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@jphma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_hom= eopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora@seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; info@homeopath= y-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; emimila@hotma= il.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeopatia.roman@= wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; i= nfo@a-r-h.org; info@th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfc= bank.com; beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srs= zsi@gmail.com; anrc@zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare@citi.com; i= nfo@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jopanda@treasur= er.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@sbi.co.in; l= orrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.= in; president@whitehouse.gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@= yogaworks.com; johnjohnassociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Gues= tservices@himalayaninstitute.org; Police@mountainview.gov
Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and= openly towards executing me and my mother continuing
 
I am writing this from a double bedroom in= aiswarya lodge one past namaskar lodge in ksrtc busstand area. I entered o= ld pulappatta house and i have tweeted the photos. It's an old house and no= t really inhabitable. I spend about half an hour there. My mother is inside a room again in some sort of khaDi= bed
I observed these..
Sarala did not let me give bottle water.. when it opened some aquachill wat= er she took some water she has made like chukku vellam and gave it to her. = I bought some rheumaheal ointment and massaged her leg. Fbi has directed me= to call usa dept of state. So she is with sridhar and sarala and whatever they give as food would enter her = body. It's like very dirty house to me with newer buildings all around. My = mother asked me to go to rohinivilla and sleep up that's not acceptible to = me. In dialed her at about 130 am and she has not picked up. She must have been fed congi in evening. When i= was there sarala gave her horlicks and is took a sip. My stomach did not l= ike it instantly and is have a slight skin problem in right feet. Thats the= old house weLl water entering her body. I am posting photos of my current room in my tweets right now
Pradeep kumar xplorer
________________________________
From: pradeep xplorer <pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2019 2:43:12 PM
To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac.in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.= com; IMB Recipient 1
Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dm= vmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; lar= rypage@google.com; larry.ellison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@y= ogaworks.com; info@agamayoga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; sumbody= @sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.gov; aler= ts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opportillo@glo= beacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeo= pathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.com; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyo= z.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@jphma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_hom= eopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora@seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; info@homeopath= y-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; emimila@hotma= il.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeopatia.roman@= wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; i= nfo@a-r-h.org; info@th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfc= bank.com; beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srs= zsi@gmail.com; anrc@zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare@citi.com; i= nfo@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jopanda@treasur= er.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@sbi.co.in; l= orrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.= in; president@whitehouse.gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@= yogaworks.com; johnjohnassociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Gues= tservices@himalayaninstitute.org; Police@mountainview.gov
Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing

Despite my persistence because of selfish interests of sarala sridhar shyle= sh balan shylaja and all related to them
my mother is in old pulappatta house. My phone stopped charging. They are d= escendants of late VK sushil kumar
and not letting me go. I am worried about her being food poison and druggin= g and future hospitalisation. I have 8000Rs room
and i can heal my mother and deal with other things. When i called my mothe= r the phone was switched off and when i called sarala my mother picked up p= hone.
I have no home and just 4300rs now.
My mother should give me 20000Rs tomorrow and i can take care of her in the= room near KSRTC busstand with clean restrooms and bed to rest. She needs t= o eat hop to a stool.. helped to change diapers and with health food and dr= inks her
knees would heal.Meanwhile i can pursue my interests of relocating to calif= ornia and my website
Please help that this is enforced.
Pradeep Kumar Xplorer

________________________________
From: pradeep xplorer <pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2019 11:52 AM
To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac.in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.= com; IMB Recipient 1
Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dm= vmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; lar= rypage@google.com; larry.ellison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@y= ogaworks.com; info@agamayoga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; sumbody= @sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.gov; aler= ts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opportillo@glo= beacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeo= pathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.com; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyo= z.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@jphma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_hom= eopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora@seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; info@homeopath= y-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; emimila@hotma= il.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeopatia.roman@= wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; i= nfo@a-r-h.org; info@th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfc= bank.com; beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srs= zsi@gmail.com; anrc@zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare@citi.com; i= nfo@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jopanda@treasur= er.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@sbi.co.in; l= orrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.= in; president@whitehouse.gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@= yogaworks.com; johnjohnassociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Gues= tservices@himalayaninstitute.org; Police@mountainview.gov
Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing

Please enforce that my motehr is not discharged to old pulappatta or rohini= villa as it would result in more harm and her death. I can 24/7 take care o= f her for a month in a double bed room in ksrtc area namaskar lodge where w= e both have stayed before.I am going to take a look at the room now. The cousins are problematic and depending = on her and me and surname and it need to be ended. Its extreme civil rights= abuse for me not being able to separate from the cousins that too that has= attacked me and my mother as well.
I am writing this from ayappa travels..
I am charging my mobile now.
My mother wont get good food and would collapse from food poisoning if take= n care by sarala sridhar balan shylaja or shylesh.
They are criminals intruding 24/7 and not selling old pulappatta house also=
I have reported to palakkad police i have been attacked by sridhar and sons= and balan and kannan.
So why is this continuing.
Pradeep Kumar Xplorer


________________________________
From: pradeep xplorer <pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2019 8:55 AM
To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac.in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.= com; IMB Recipient 1
Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dm= vmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; lar= rypage@google.com; larry.ellison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@y= ogaworks.com; info@agamayoga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; sumbody= @sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.gov; aler= ts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opportillo@glo= beacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeo= pathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.com; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyo= z.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@jphma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_hom= eopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora@seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; info@homeopath= y-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; emimila@hotma= il.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeopatia.roman@= wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; i= nfo@a-r-h.org; info@th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfc= bank.com; beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srs= zsi@gmail.com; anrc@zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare@citi.com; i= nfo@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jopanda@treasur= er.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@sbi.co.in; l= orrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.= in; president@whitehouse.gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@= yogaworks.com; johnjohnassociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Gues= tservices@himalayaninstitute.org; Police@mountainview.gov
Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing

I ate upma and fried egg from indian coffee house. I packed upma as it was = healthy good quality. I took an auto to make sure it enters my mothers body= . The criminals sridhar and sarala prevented it by sending a wheat dosa put= rid I spat out after one bite. My mother also made some sound eating it . I gave her upma without chutney or= Sambar and still she complained because of them sending dosa. My mother co= mplained the upma is spicy or hot or chilly but it did not have chilly and = it was not hot. Sara the disturbed me giving food by saying eat drugs. The upma was finally consumed by shara= t. Sharat should say yes to my request for help and shift her to double roo= m. Instead I am worried he thinks me and my mother killed his father. Sridh= ar sarala shylaja balan kannan sridhars two sons are dangerous criminals to me that has already managed to harm me= and my mother and inflict too much cruelty on both of us.. it has to be en= forced for her safety that she is separated from them and i am separated fr= om them so I can take care of her and relocate.
I gave letter that John george gave to Hemambika nagar police station.
It's dangerous for my mother to be shifted to rohinivilla or pulappatta hou= se they would underfed her food poison her prevent me taking care of her an= d repeatedly put her under care of allopathic hospitals until she is dead. = My mother should be healed and made assertive and made to enjoy life and chose holistic healing modalities
Pradeep kumar xplorer
91.6238940417
________________________________
From: pradeep xplorer <pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2019 7:49:36 AM
To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac.in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.= com; IMB Recipient 1
Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dm= vmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; lar= rypage@google.com; larry.ellison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@y= ogaworks.com; info@agamayoga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; sumbody= @sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.gov; aler= ts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opportillo@glo= beacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeo= pathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.com; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyo= z.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@jphma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_hom= eopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora@seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; info@homeopath= y-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; emimila@hotma= il.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeopatia.roman@= wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; i= nfo@a-r-h.org; info@th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfc= bank.com; beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srs= zsi@gmail.com; anrc@zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare@citi.com; i= nfo@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jopanda@treasur= er.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@sbi.co.in; l= orrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.= in; president@whitehouse.gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@= yogaworks.com; johnjohnassociates@yahoo.co.in; sadhakagrama@gmail.com; Gues= tservices@himalayaninstitute.org
Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing

I have given the letter written by shameera from John George's office to he= mambika nagar police. My mother should not Ingest anything made by shylaja = or their ensure congi milk and for that matter anyone food by cousins. I wa= nt to prevent further injuries and danger to her life she be discharged from sai hospital to a double room in= namaskar lodge for a month for 8000rs which is only 3000rs and it be enfor= ced that she be dedrugged and given a choice to chose treatment modality of= ayurveda homoeo or spa yoga massage class or naturopathy any thing other than allopathic. Sridhar and balan ar= e dangerous that has harmed me and my mother using doctors and trying to ex= ecute us
Pradeep kumar xplorer
91.6238940417
________________________________
From: pradeep xplorer <pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 5:35:33 PM
To: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info; rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilat= esAssociation@gmail.com; info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpo= l@vsnl.com; info@qatarairways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns= .gov.in; press@interpol.int; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac.in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.= com; IMB Recipient 1
Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dm= vmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; lar= rypage@google.com; larry.ellison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@y= ogaworks.com; info@agamayoga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; sumbody= @sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.gov; aler= ts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opportillo@glo= beacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeo= pathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.com; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyo= z.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@jphma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_hom= eopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora@seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; info@homeopath= y-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; emimila@hotma= il.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeopatia.roman@= wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; i= nfo@a-r-h.org; info@th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfc= bank.com; beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srs= zsi@gmail.com; anrc@zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare@citi.com; i= nfo@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jopanda@treasur= er.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@sbi.co.in; l= orrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.= in; president@whitehouse.gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@= yogaworks.com
Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing

Balan entered here and tried to attack me saying i did not change my dress.= They are trying to food poison my mother. I am a person who washes clothes= and use them i use only one pair. I washed my tshirt and underwear and kha= ki pants is OK. They are now preventing me from giving the tender coconut. Balan is a criminal trying to execute m= y mother and suspect behind this crime. My mother is again given saline. I = have contacted the local authorities of akathethara 91.491.2555208 they sho= uld charge balan for injuring my mothers head by underfeeding her. Balan sarala sridhar shylaja are the cri= minals. My mothers body cannot be a quality testing ground. They are hoveri= ng over her and i dont like it. I am an adult who does not have to see any = of these. In addition if these extorted the money I paid to sindhu in 2003 it is a major crime in which sindhu als= o might have been injured by these. These have prevented me from giving her= tender coconut. I have cared for my mother and treated her for a year in m= ountianview using my income. And she wanted me here. So she did not keep tabs and helping me.these are prev= enting me being helped by her.i have no idea who has taken my money or why = i cannot have an income from yoga and software. Please request kunjikavu to= appear and help my mother to bsnl quarters some room. My mother would die if fed by them. Sarala and balan a= re criminals now claiming I am harming her or something. These are shameles= s criminals promoted by some international criminal organisation using a su= rname usage and thieves
Pradeep kumar xplorer
________________________________
From: pradeep@dhyanayoga.info <pradeep@dhyanayoga.info>
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 4:56:37 PM
To: rwalker@scscourt.org; icann@icann.org; USPilatesAssociation@gmail.com; = info@pilates.org.au; office@brietenbush.com; delpol@vsnl.com; info@qatarair= ways.qa; directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in; dgp@tncctns.gov.in; press@interpol.i= nt; info@archive.org; rkumar.kpm@nic.in; sasi@cdac.in; supremecourt@nic.in; mukundram2007@gmail.com; IMB Recipient = 1; pradeep xplorer
Cc: scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil; ladyofmanynames@gmail.com; ardenfire= @yahoo.com; sovereignamber@hotmail.com; fmcreative@fantasymakers.com; oig.h= otline@ssa.gov; ssa.comments@ssa.gov; efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com; = ehc@lighthouse-sf.org; rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com; dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com; amy@amytanathorn.com; amyji2@gmail.com; dm= vmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov; zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com; scottm@wayin.com; lar= rypage@google.com; larry.ellison@oracle.com; info@yogaalliance.o rg; info@y= ogaworks.com; info@agamayoga.com; mail@ashtangayoga.info; hilaryacer@gmail.com; info@yogasource.com; sumbody= @sumbody.com; askvisa@visa.com; askvisausa@visa.com; askdoj@usdoj.gov; aler= ts@wellsfargo.com; john.c.gerspach@citi.com; deptc@jcap.com; opportillo@glo= beacceptance.com; abuse@chase.com; pao.eoir@usdoj.gov; adminnzch@xtra.co.nz; chcadmin@comcast.net; info@homeo= pathyhongkong.org; nashinfo@aol.com; ocharmenia@mail.com; admin@homeopathyo= z.org; accueil@ sphq.org; office@jphma.org; info@ligahomeopatica.be; bg_hom= eopathy@yahoo.com; homeopat.komora@seznam.cz; dskh@homeopati.dk; toimisto@homeopaatit.fi; office@vkhd.de; info@homeopath= y-greece.gr; ishom@eircom.net; info@corporazioneomeopati.org; emimila@hotma= il.com; mcutajar@maltanet.net; info@nvkh.nl; nhl@c2i.net; homeopatia.roman@= wp.pl; aph.lxp@gmail.com; homeons@neobee.net; rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk; info@aehu.es; info@sakh.se; info@hvs.ch; i= nfo@a-r-h.org; info@th e-hma.org; info@homeopathy-soh.org; pnohdfcbank@hdfc= bank.com; beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com; benefits.application@ssa.gov; srs= zsi@gmail.com; anrc@zsi.gov.in; nrc@zsi.gov.in; hr@harbin.org; info@olt.org; head.customercare@citi.com; i= nfo@jennervacationrentals.com; info@kinoyoga.com; Geneveive.jopanda@treasur= er.ca.gov; dtocbe@nic.in; agaekarnataka@cag.gov; Contactcentre@sbi.co.in; l= orrett@fantasymakers.com; Care@jio.com; gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov; SPMC PHQ; PHQ.pol@k erala.gov.in; igadm@crpf.gov.= in; president@whitehouse.gov; Kumaarj5@Gmail.com; Mumbaif@state.gov; Megan@= yogaworks.com
Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing

I managed to avoid food poison or anything from shylaja for my mother by be= ing here i gave her chai from down and idli from down and prevented sarala = from giving ensure. I talked to the spectacled doctor and my mother agreed = to drink horlicks with hot water. But i had to fight with sarala . I suspect they are having an income by ma= intaining the old pulappatta house which is like the only common wealth .. = I owe nothing from pradeep kumar pulappatta accounts or pradeep kumar xplor= er accounts to them. I left to avoid them and i dont know what sarala gave. She vomited some time earlier I am = trillion times certain she won't vomit anything if she is in kaliappa hotel= or alathur hotel in a room under my care so this is crime by local law enf= orcers in akathethara hemambika nagar police station or whoever keeping my money as common wealth. It coul= d be a planned attack by sarala and shylesh who to me are poor because they= created children and i dont have even one. It's a crime that mountain view= police is unable to help or not helping or the us embassies not enforcing and continuing harm to me and my= mother. I do not want any of vk sushilkumar and kp saradas children or the= ir connections giving anything to my mother as i suspect they may want to e= xecute her. There cannot be any room for  chance. This has to be enforced at the level I am reporting=
Pradeep kumar xplorer

Sent from MailDroid<https://goo.gl/ODg= wBb>

-----Original Message-----
From: pradeep xplorer <pradeepan88@hotmail.com>
To: "pradeep@dhyanayoga.info" <pradeep@dhyanayoga.info>, &q= uot;rwalker@scscourt.org" <rwalker@scscourt.org>, "icann@ic= ann.org" <icann@icann.org>, "USPilatesAssociation@gmail.com= " <USPilatesAssociation@gmail.com>, "info@pilates.org.au&qu= ot; <info@pilates.org.au>, "office@brietenbush.com" <office@brietenbush.com>, "delpol@vsnl.com" <delpol@vsn= l.com>, "info@qatarairways.qa" <info@qatarairways.qa>, &= quot;directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in" <directorhomoeo@kerala.gov.in>= ;, "dgp@tncctns.gov.in" <dgp@tncctns.gov.in>, "press@i= nterpol.int" <press@interpol.int>, "info@archive.org" <info@archive.org>, "rkumar.kpm@ni= c.in" <rkumar.kpm@nic.in>, "sasi@cdac.in" <sasi@cda= c.in>, "supremecourt@nic.in" <supremecourt@nic.in>, &quo= t;mukundram2007@gmail.com" <mukundram2007@gmail.com>, IMB Recipi= ent 1 <mspop3connector.info@nvkh.nl>
Cc: "scotte.stafford@siap.pentagon.mil" <scotte.stafford@siap.= pentagon.mil>, "ladyofmanynames@gmail.com" <ladyofmanynames= @gmail.com>, "ardenfire@yahoo.com" <ardenfire@yahoo.com>= , "sovereignamber@hotmail.com" <sovereignamber@hotmail.com>= , "fmcreative@fantasymakers.com" <fmcreative@fantasymakers.com>, "oig.hotline@ssa.gov" <= oig.hotline@ssa.gov>, "ssa.comments@ssa.gov" <ssa.comments@= ssa.gov>, "efcc.nigeria.org@representative.com" <efcc.niger= ia.org@representative.com>, "ehc@lighthouse-sf.org" <ehc@li= ghthouse-sf.org>, "rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com" <rajik.sharma@hdfcbank.com>, "dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com&qu= ot; <dwestergreen@koenigrubloff.com>, "amy@amytanathorn.com"= ; <amy@amytanathorn.com>, "amyji2@gmail.com" <amyji2@gma= il.com>, "dmvmediarelations@dmv.ca.gov" <dmvmediarelations@= dmv.ca.gov>, "zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com" <zoe.tillman@buzzfeed.com>, "scottm@wayin.com" <scottm@= wayin.com>, "larrypage@google.com" <larrypage@google.com>= ;, "larry.ellison@oracle.com" <larry.ellison@oracle.com>, &= quot;info@yogaalliance.org" <info@yogaalliance.org>, "info@= yogaworks.com" <info@yogaworks.com>, "info@agamayoga.com" <info@agamayoga.com>, "mail@asht= angayoga.info" <mail@ashtangayoga.info>, "hilaryacer@gmail.= com" <hilaryacer@gmail.com>, "info@yogasource.com" <= ;info@yogasource.com>, "sumbody@sumbody.com" <sumbody@sumbo= dy.com>, "askvisa@visa.com" <askvisa@visa.com>, "askvisausa@visa.com" <askvisausa@visa.com>, "askdoj@= usdoj.gov" <askdoj@usdoj.gov>, "alerts@wellsfargo.com"= <alerts@wellsfargo.com>, "john.c.gerspach@citi.com" <jo= hn.c.gerspach@citi.com>, "deptc@jcap.com" <deptc@jcap.com&g= t;, "opportillo@globeacceptance.com" <opportillo@globeacceptance.com>, "abuse@chase.com" <ab= use@chase.com>, "pao.eoir@usdoj.gov" <pao.eoir@usdoj.gov>= ;, "adminnzch@xtra.co.nz" <adminnzch@xtra.co.nz>, "chc= admin@comcast.net" <chcadmin@comcast.net>, "info@homeopathy= hongkong.org" <info@homeopathyhongkong.org>, "nashinfo@aol.com" <nashinfo@aol.com>, "ocharmenia@ma= il.com" <ocharmenia@mail.com>, "admin@homeopathyoz.org"= ; <admin@homeopathyoz.org>, "accueil@sphq.org" <accueil@= sphq.org>, "office@jphma.org" <office@jphma.org>, "= info@ligahomeopatica.be" <info@ligahomeopatica.be>, "bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com" <bg_homeopathy@yahoo.com>, "= ;homeopat.komora@seznam.cz" <homeopat.komora@seznam.cz>, "d= skh@homeopati.dk" <dskh@homeopati.dk>, "toimisto@homeopaati= t.fi" <toimisto@homeopaatit.fi>, "office@vkhd.de" <= office@vkhd.de>, "info@homeopathy-greece.gr" <info@homeopathy-greece.gr>, "ishom@eircom.net" <ishom@= eircom.net>, "info@corporazioneomeopati.org" <info@corporaz= ioneomeopati.org>, "emimila@hotmail.com" <emimila@hotmail.c= om>, "mcutajar@maltanet.net" <mcutajar@maltanet.net>, &q= uot;info@nvkh.nl" <info@nvkh.nl>, "nhl@c2i.net" <nhl@c2i.net>, "homeopatia.roman@wp.pl&= quot; <homeopatia.roman@wp.pl>, "aph.lxp@gmail.com" <aph= .lxp@gmail.com>, "homeons@neobee.net" <homeons@neobee.net&g= t;, "rada@homeopaticka-asociacia.sk" <rada@homeopaticka-asocia= cia.sk>, "info@aehu.es" <info@aehu.es>, "info@sakh.se" <info@sakh.se>, "info@hvs.ch" <= ;info@hvs.ch>, "info@a-r-h.org" <info@a-r-h.org>, "= info@the-hma.org" <info@the-hma.org>, "info@homeopathy-soh.= org" <info@homeopathy-soh.org>, "pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com&q= uot; <pnohdfcbank@hdfcbank.com>, "beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com= " <beyoutifullivingyoga@gmail.com>, "benefits.application@ssa.gov= " <benefits.application@ssa.gov>, "srszsi@gmail.com" &= lt;srszsi@gmail.com>, "anrc@zsi.gov.in" <anrc@zsi.gov.in>= ;, "nrc@zsi.gov.in" <nrc@zsi.gov.in>, "hr@harbin.org&q= uot; <hr@harbin.org>, "info@olt.org" <info@olt.org>, "head.customercare@citi.com" <head.cust= omercare@citi.com>, "info@jennervacationrentals.com" <info@= jennervacationrentals.com>, "info@kinoyoga.com" <info@kinoy= oga.com>, "Geneveive.jopanda@treasurer.ca.gov" <Geneveive.j= opanda@treasurer.ca.gov>, "dtocbe@nic.in" <dtocbe@nic.in>, "agaekarnataka@cag.g= ov" <agaekarnataka@cag.gov>, "Contactcentre@sbi.co.in"= <Contactcentre@sbi.co.in>, "lorrett@fantasymakers.com" <= ;lorrett@fantasymakers.com>, "Care@jio.com" <Care@jio.com&g= t;, "gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov" <gavin.newsom@lgt.ca.gov>, SPMC PHQ <spmcphq.pol@kerala.gov.in>, "PHQ.pol@kerala.gov.in&qu= ot; <PHQ.pol@kerala.gov.in>, "igadm@crpf.gov.in" <igadm@= crpf.gov.in>, "president@whitehouse.gov" <president@whiteho= use.gov>, "Kumaarj5@Gmail.com" <Kumaarj5@Gmail.com>, &qu= ot;Mumbaif@state.gov" <Mumbaif@state.gov>, "Megan@yogaworks.com" <Megan@yogaworks.com>
Sent: Mon, 01 Jul 2019 12:23
Subject: Re: Suspected activities that's leading to my suffering and openly= towards executing me and my mother continuing

Hello
These are the events that again made me very disturbed.
I tweeted in @pradeepxplorer1 that i was in a long beach hotel cabin with s= ee through glasses
that i can see from inside but from outside they cannot see me..I was in a = double room with double bed
that i paid 3000Rs and i was all alone and i did not have a girl frend or w= oman to enjoy the beach and evening
and i posted in my website this is 2010 december past 20th i think and i ha= d explodingmoon.org only
dhyanayoga.info was not available for registration and i recieved an email = from bkvarma88@hotmail.com that my mother got hospitalised and i am worried= if balan or sridhar or bharat or their connections attacked her. I had to = call from
phone and my mother was admitted for second umbilical hernia operation i su= spect sirdhar and bharat was in touch
and i suspect all of those are criminals claiming money from me using sindh= u and has some control over
some funds or stealing my subscribers help using my domains claiming i am w= ealthy as Ex sun employee.
After that tweet saraal entered the hospital and i started getting disturbe= d as she is not there to just visit
but to ensure my mother is food poisoned or eat what she brings and they ca= n do anything. My mother was food
poisoned by shylaja resulting in her eating very very less food,, one idli = in morning and one glass of rice water for lunch and
one glass of milk for dinner, she lost ten kilogram and sensing that i trie= d to eat her my kind of food and balan
attacked me. Balan has attacked me inside govt homoe kalpathy hospital and = also inside sai hospital yesterday.
My mothers life would be in danger as she is already weak if she is shifted= back to rohinivilla. Kunjikav teacher
my mothers colleague came and visited her and with her was some bsnl staff = jayakumar. It would be best if they
can relocate to her a room somewhere there. I am willing to travel with her= to US airport and fly out
with the help of US embassy chennai. I again assertively declare i am sole = owner author authority or dhyanayoga.info
explodingmoon.org pradeepkumarxplorer.com and that money and fact is suffic= ient for me to live in USA
with US citizenship with my mother or whatever status. Its not acceptible t= his case dispute uncertainty indecision continued another day. It would lea= d to my mothers death. The local police in akathethara is partner to this c= rime
as they have partnered with attacking and hospitalising me after SUN was so= ld to ORACLE and even now
 not acknowledging me as author owner of websites dhyanayoga.info expl= odingmoon.org pradeepkumarxplorer.com

This is what happened after sarala entered hospital (sai hospital room 20 o= lavakkode palakkad)
She kept on asking her to drink ensure
I reported that she should not give her ensure.. My mother had vomitted it = the day before she fell
down.
I am certain there was food poison
I am certain the congi shylaja sends is low grade or with food poison
I am certain Balan Kannan Sridhar two sons would not admit that they attack= ed me and would continue to attack me
and do things to extort cash from my mother.
I am sure they are not my wellwishers and trying to murder me and my mother= . Sarala and shylaja are partners to it.
Bharat indira are also partners to it.

If they are taking money paid to me its a very cruel crime that cannot be f= orgiven.
Sarala started fighting with me and threatened me she would call someone to= attack me and called sridhar shylesh
and when doctor entered i mentioned the ensure had food poison and should n= ot be given to my mother or the congi
and the doctor agreed when i talked to him objectively. I then made horlick= s with hotwater. My mother had to be discharged to a different room with he= lp of kunjikavu or anyone like that i should get a solution to take her to = the airport and with help of uS embassies fly back to USa and get money/employment and lead my life.

Sridhar and two sons Balan kannan has attacked me and still i have to see t= hem. yesterday balan and shylesh tried to attack me.
shankaravarmas wife objected to me not changing pants.

I also mentioned bluehost.com is not changing registrant contact of three d= omains to +91.6238940417.
Please free the suspects accounts so that they dont have money to continue = this crime against me and my mother
I am writing from ayyappa travels and i am just a customer here.

Pradeep Kumar Xplorer
+91.6238940417


--_000_MAXPR01MB230444A51AE447BE55968E8AB7F10MAXPR01MB2304INDP_-- From nobody Tue Jul 9 11:16:18 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1894A120966; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 11:16:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zH3xEsqMGtYi; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 11:16:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D9651120946; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 11:16:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1hkuex-000Cfl-Ry; Tue, 09 Jul 2019 14:16:11 -0400 Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 14:16:05 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Carsten Bormann , art@ietf.org cc: i18ndir@ietf.org Message-ID: <0A5251342D480BA6437F7549@PSB> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Modern Network Unicode X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 18:16:16 -0000 Carsten, I will study this more when I get time, but a few quick observations. I have glanced at your revised versions, but started this response before either -01 or (obviously) -02 were published so will just finish it and get it off. If it makes a difference, I am writing as co-author of RFC 5198. I regret that my late, much-lamented, and far more articulate co-author is not not available to do so. Those you knew Mike might develop a smile in his memory by contemplating how he would have expressed himself about some of the issue below. Some things to think about that the drafts do not appear to reflect... (1) The network acquired the CRLF convention because the earliest versions of ASCII defined LF strictly as a movement to the same character position on the next line. For anyone old enough to remember typewriters, that is the function of rolling the carriage up one line. From the same period and interpretation, CR alone means "back to first character position on the current line". In that interpretation, if one wanted the first character position on the next line (sometimes known as the "new line" function), one needed CR LF. To make things a bit more complicated, some systems at the time used LF alone as new line and others used CR alone. If a few lines were entered on one such system and transferred to another, CR LF would always produce the expected result, but bare CR, bare LF, or LF CR might cause surprises. There are symmetric relationships among SP and HT, LF and VT, and CR and BS; considering them might help explain how we got here (and, for those who don't know, part of the reason why BS (U+0008) is defined as non-destructive on many systems). Later versions of ASCII changed several of the definitions to be, essentially, "interpret it however you like". Of course, from an interchange standpoint, that just made things worse. ISO/IEC 6429 tried to fix the problem by defining new control codes with specific meanings (see U+0084 and U+0085), but they never took off and hence added to the confusion. Unicode, having learned from that experience, solved it by adding yet more codes, notably U+2028, which, as you note, didn't go anywhere either. Telnet (and FTP TYPE A and perhaps email) may be history although I think we lost quite a bit in going from the network-standard forms specified at the core of those protocols to the "everything is like Unix" or "everything is like me" models that seem to be pervasive in many more recent developments. It may be a bit ironic that your solution to some other problems is to devise yet another network-standard form, especially one that has options that basically encourage (or require) profiles (or, if you prefer, combinations of variances). As long as one only intends to store or display the results of whatever is transmitted and the display device follows more less the same conventions as the transmitting one, none of that makes any difference, at least in the overwhelming number of cases. If, however, there is any requirement to compare a set of strings, things get more complicated in a hurry (see below). (2) Especially given recent knowledge and discoveries, requiring NFC is probably a mistake and might have been a mistake when 5198 was written. NFKC is worse. If you read the Unicode Standard, you will find that the goal of normalization is generally to permit application to convert two strings to a common form before they are compared to provide comparisons that would nearly approximate what people would expect. That pre-comparison conversion is probably why Unicode uses the term "canonical form" although it doesn't include some of the things the rest of us have historically means by that term in specific applications. However, converting strings to normalized form before transmission may lose information that was intended by the user to affect how characters are displayed. Because of some characteristics of the DNS and IDNA, there was a special need for stored NFC-strings. That might generalize to some of the PRECIS work and possibly to identifiers in general, but certainly does not extend to transmission of general Unicode strings. For the NFC case, it is easy to make the wrong generalization from Latin script, where it is generally harmless at worst but that is not the case more generally. NKKC is even more problematic: eliminating half-width characters in favor of their normal-width equivalents may be harmless (or may not), but dropping, e.g., mathematical symbols or rarely-used CJK characters in favor of Latin or Greek character or more commonly used CJK ones with similar interpretations can be a disaster. If you want a variation for "loses information but maybe no one cares" then you might put NFKC in there along with several other things :-( (3) The comparison problem is, as mentioned above, far more difficult. At the most superficial level, the web and some other modern applications allow either LF or CRLF. That might have been a mistake -- or maybe it is ok. It does means that strings (or whole files) have to be converted to some canonical form for comparison, that sizes change, etc. The difficulties pervade the many issues we've had with IDNA over the years, including the question of whether or not NFC is adequate to deal comprehensively with the problems (it isn't) and what should be done about the cases where it is not. For a discussion of some of the issues, see https://github.com/w3c/charmod-norm You might want to try to encourage the i18n directorate (copied on this note) to review this before you get much further along. best, john --On Sunday, 07 July, 2019 22:14 +0200 Carsten Bormann wrote: > This week, I have been asked twice (for independent drafts) > what these drafts should say about their usage of Unicode. It > turns out, we have an RFC that is almost, but not entirely > unlike what is needed to reference for a new protocol that > uses text: RFC 5198. I have tried to build on that in the very > short draft: > > > > I would expect that such a specification, once completed, > would be a useful point of reference for any new protocols > that need to use text without any specific requirements > imposed by their applications. (Protocols that already have > been around probably benefit less, because there always are > legacy considerations.) > > I'm not yet asking for dispatching this document; right now I > would just like to receive feedback from this esteemed > community to further improve the document. From nobody Tue Jul 9 14:09:32 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A9CD1200B2 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 14:09:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iqoA9z5koVRA for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 14:09:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E3FB712006F for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 14:09:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1hkxMR-000CwX-A9; Tue, 09 Jul 2019 17:09:15 -0400 Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 17:09:10 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Peter Occil , Carsten Bormann , "Manger, James" cc: art@ietf.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5d23ea83.1c69fb81.23b36.b4fb@mx.google.com> References: <790BA1EF-7C0C-4E14-8BB2-4AD421ACAFB5@tzi.org> <5d23ea83.1c69fb81.23b36.b4fb@mx.google.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] =?utf-8?q?Modern_Network_Unicode_=E2=80=94_=E2=80=9302_sub?= =?utf-8?q?mitted?= X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 21:09:30 -0000 Carsten and Peter, Citing a corrigendum for Unicode 7 at this point is probably a bad idea. If you need a reference or more explanation for this, see Section 23.7 of Unicode 11.0 (same section number in Unicode 10; I haven't taken the time to change Unicode 12). That new section is also more complete than the text Peter cites. best, john --On Monday, July 8, 2019 21:14 -0400 Peter Occil wrote: > Saying U+FFFE and U+FFFF (or any other noncharacters) "MUST > NOT be used" merely "as per the Unicode specification" > ought to be guided by looking at what the intent of Unicode > actually is. >=20 > See corrigendum 9 of the Unicode Standard for that intent: > http://www.unicode.org/versions/corrigendum9.html >=20 > "Noncharacters in the Unicode Standard are intended for > internal use and have no standard interpretation when > exchanged outside the context of internal use. However, they > are not illegal in interchange nor do they cause ill-formed > Unicode text. This has always been the intent of the standard, > as expressed by the Unicode Technical Committee." >=20 > Since noncharacters have no standard meaning outside of > internal use, however, they may be even more problematic than > the Unicode paragraph and line separators (which do have > standard meaning but are forbidden in the draft for Modern > Network Unicode). Many kinds of protocol strings, such as > URIs, IRIs, and strings complying with the PRECIS framework, > do not allow noncharacter code points, while other kinds of > UTF-8 text, such as JSON, do allow noncharacters. XML allows > all noncharacters except for U+FFFE and U+FFFF. >=20 > --Peter >=20 > From: Carsten Bormann > Sent: Monday, July 8, 2019 4:24 PM > To: Manger, James > Cc: art@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [art]Modern Network Unicode =E2=80=94 =E2=80=9302 = submitted >=20 > Hi James, Tim, Martin, >=20 > thank you for the quick feedback! As suggested, I have > started turning this into a standalone document (of course, > still requiring RFC 3629, the UTF-8 definition): >=20 > Status: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bormann-dispatch-modern > -network-unicode/ Htmlized: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bormann-dispatch-modern-netw > ork-unicode-02 Diff: > = https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-bormann-dispatch-mod > ern-network-unicode-02 >=20 > I hope I haven't missed anything important from RFC 5198 > that I wanted to keep. Maybe time to involve the authors of > that RFC=E2=80=A6 >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 >=20 >> On Jul 8, 2019, at 04:18, Manger, James >> wrote: >>=20 >> Would be nicer if it wasn't written as a diff from RFC5198 >> (Network Unicode). That is, if you could get all the rules >> directly from this doc. For instance, I assume Clean Modern >> Network Unicode must/should be NFC. Keep the RFC5198 >> comparisons for an informative annex. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > art mailing list > art@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art >=20 From nobody Tue Jul 9 14:50:57 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E1D112000E; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 14:50:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WoRvYfhnXlP9; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 14:50:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0AFFF12007A; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 14:50:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.110] (p548DC676.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.198.118]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 45jwx05TSCzyWK; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 23:50:44 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <0A5251342D480BA6437F7549@PSB> Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 23:50:44 +0200 Cc: art@ietf.org, i18ndir@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 584401842.5442179-800bc5eabb9d248fb8caf168bd9b0a6d Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <0A5251342D480BA6437F7549@PSB> To: John C Klensin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Modern Network Unicode X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 21:50:50 -0000 Hi John, thank you for chiming in. I would have summoned you (and i18ndir) in = time; in the current phase of rapid respins of the document I was first = trying to make it useful before trying to nail down the details. I was a toddler when ASA X3.4-1963 was released, but I caught up to = ASCII about a dozen years later. I have used ASR33s (although I spent = more time on LA36s), and I have fully internalized the teleprinter model = that led to NVT. (I also spent some time on glass tty models of = teleprinters [1].) But while the teleprinter model has originally = shaped what became =E2=80=9Ctext files=E2=80=9D, the latter are now = living a life of their own. MNU in effect tries to codify the = emancipation of text from the NVT model, and I=E2=80=99m not surprised = that this breaking away causes some sorrow. Some specific comments: > developments. It may be a bit ironic that your solution to some > other problems is to devise yet another network-standard form, > especially one that has options that basically encourage (or > require) profiles (or, if you prefer, combinations of variances). Most new applications will be fine with (1D) CMNU or (2D) MNU with = lines. But sometimes legacy rears its ugly head, and therefore additional = variances are defined. I believe it is much better to expressly define = these variances than to lump all the legacy into one big blob (single = profile) that confuses the cleaner applications of MNU. Now what is text being used for? Some is exclusively for display to = humans in 1D (CMNU) or 2D (MNU with lines) environments. Some is then also used by machines, and that is where easy comparison = comes in. But the advantages of reasonably predictable encoding go way beyond = that; which is why NFC coding is a de facto standard in most places that = would use MNU. (NFKC is in the current document mostly as a reminder that variances can = be made in normalization, as well; it is probably the only reasonable = one beyond NFC among the normalization forms, but has its own problems = as you note.) The CRLF (which really has survived only because the ASR33 needed up to = 200 ms for a CR and the LF was a good excuse to waste those other 100 = ms) is no longer needed; with the exception of a single popular = operating system family, bare LF has won the line ending competition. = CRLF is one legacy feature that it=E2=80=99s worth getting rid of = (except maybe as the =E2=80=9CCR-tolerance" variance), as is HT. (I=E2=80= =99m assuming FF and VT are no longer relevant in most of today=E2=80=99s = applications.) All this may be a bit opinionated, but it is also = forward-looking. If full NVT is needed, we can always reference RFC = 5198; MNU is for the cases where that is not needed. I hope this doesn=E2=80=99t come over as too brash =E2=80=94 I really = like RFC 5198 and the careful tradeoffs it makes, but there are lots of = applications that need something simpler and MNU reflects current = practice and is a sane design for the 2020s+ (*). Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Screen (*): Yes, I=E2=80=99m fully aware that nothing about text and writing = systems is genuinely simple; Einstein/Sessions applies. From nobody Tue Jul 9 18:43:25 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C40E712001E for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 18:43:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.684 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.684 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=comcastmailservice.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Id2pmWkj2KgH for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 18:43:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resqmta-ch2-03v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-ch2-03v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6D08C120048 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 18:43:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resomta-ch2-13v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.109]) by resqmta-ch2-03v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTP id l14phTlQvgu8Yl1dfhDtEB; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 01:43:19 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcastmailservice.net; s=20180828_2048; t=1562722999; bh=lYwmg4+OZkH1Z41n/Ln2/dPcurkimPjLqcnI3elo94g=; h=Received:Received:Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date: Message-ID; b=anHWWAeY+Lo6bhKcplKzcHsvVsyTbQWkqpjwCkv03fJgcV/zYaO1zTmyQHWWGjU+H 7ZvBNfARwARcowLR+sfPLr1lv/riwsZHvkClXTDdYg8EgJlXUoIEgJ+KGwZAVRDRnC WzURVZvkAmTG/5C9lFoF4C25vNAV/is2+DXlgqbe2abs4pMP6e/unzJjO489qmMA7a 7oTAGRgp1ZwpvBHtUsis95Cg3QMEpgflvY95SQoYNNbHqIm3CgZ0LVxie8p/PBANZh IPujoWdQzH4NnPs1ffFKp7AXjrZP/6C2y/jy/HbbumQhlr+nLYKDX9yjm3Qkhs/Qlk uL1lQL9O1KeHA== Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com ([IPv6:2601:192:4603:9471:222:fbff:fe91:d396]) by resomta-ch2-13v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTPA id l1dchY63ja9P8l1ddhQ3K9; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 01:43:18 +0000 X-Xfinity-VMeta: sc=-100;st=legit Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com (hobgoblin.ariadne.com [127.0.0.1]) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id x6A1hGDe031912; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:43:16 -0400 Received: (from worley@localhost) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7/Submit) id x6A1hFUG031907; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:43:15 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: hobgoblin.ariadne.com: worley set sender to worley@alum.mit.edu using -f From: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) To: Carsten Bormann Cc: art@ietf.org In-Reply-To: (cabo@tzi.org) Sender: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 21:43:15 -0400 Message-ID: <87v9war7f0.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Modern Network Unicode X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 01:43:23 -0000 Carsten Bormann writes: > (although I spent more time on LA36s) My memory is that the LA36 had a configuration button on it titled "AUTO LF". Which rather symbolizes the difficulties of this topic. Dale From nobody Wed Jul 10 00:10:07 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7960120100; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 00:10:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D-Szb4cNct3s; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 00:10:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4DA6B120103; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 00:10:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1hl6jo-000EXk-Ad; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 03:10:00 -0400 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 03:09:54 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Carsten Bormann cc: art@ietf.org, i18ndir@ietf.org Message-ID: <248A8DD5DA0D3D34D6B6EFC9@PSB> In-Reply-To: References: <0A5251342D480BA6437F7549@PSB> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Modern Network Unicode X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 07:10:06 -0000 --On Tuesday, July 9, 2019 23:50 +0200 Carsten Bormann wrote: > Hi John, >=20 > thank you for chiming in. I would have summoned you (and > i18ndir) in time; in the current phase of rapid respins of the > document I was first trying to make it useful before trying to > nail down the details. The counterargument is that it is better to catch any significant misconceptions early. I haven't seen those in your draft(s), but couldn't know without looking through them. > I was a toddler when ASA X3.4-1963 was released, but I caught > up to ASCII about a dozen years later. I have used ASR33s > (although I spent more time on LA36s), and I have fully > internalized the teleprinter model that led to NVT. (I also > spent some time on glass tty models of teleprinters [1].) But > while the teleprinter model has originally shaped what became > "text files", the latter are now living a life of their > own. MNU in effect tries to codify the emancipation of text > from the NVT model, and I'm not surprised that this breaking > away causes some sorrow. Understood. And, as you have probably figured out, 5198 was an attempt to update NVT but to do so in as direct a way as possible, which meant carrying some of the NVT baggage along. I also suspect from your explanation that I'm close to 20 years older that you are and have a larger selection of contemporaneous scars from that period. Probably less sorrow or nostalgia than you might assume, but a keen sense of why some things got to be the way they are. I will warn you that another effect on me of that period is an inclination toward simplicity and a minimum of options. That is not specifically an NVT issue, but NVT (and early Telnet) show some of that thinking. I would even claim that one of the reasons the Internet succeeded is that many people treated "profile" as nearly an obscenity. In principle, I have no difficulty with what I think you are trying to do. I do think it is going to need more explanation about why, scope of applications, etc., than the I-D has now. Probably that can wait although getting to at least some of it relatively early may help clarify what this is all about. > Some specific comments: >=20 >> developments. It may be a bit ironic that your solution to >> some other problems is to devise yet another network-standard >> form, especially one that has options that basically >> encourage (or require) profiles (or, if you prefer, >> combinations of variances). >=20 > Most new applications will be fine with (1D) CMNU or (2D) MNU > with lines. But sometimes legacy rears its ugly head, and > therefore additional variances are defined. I believe it is > much better to expressly define these variances than to lump > all the legacy into one big blob (single profile) that > confuses the cleaner applications of MNU. I will need to think more about this. It may depend a bit on how the variances are presented and what you encourage and discourage. And I'd be happier if, e.g., what is needed for 2D were separated more clearly from accommodations for legacy situations. > Now what is text being used for? Some is exclusively for > display to humans in 1D (CMNU) or 2D (MNU with lines) > environments. Some is then also used by machines, and that is > where easy comparison comes in. But the advantages of > reasonably predictable encoding go way beyond that; which is > why NFC coding is a de facto standard in most places that > would use MNU. (NFKC is in the current document mostly as a > reminder that variances can be made in normalization, as well; > it is probably the only reasonable one beyond NFC among the > normalization forms, but has its own problems as you note.) This difference in perspective may or may not be useful, but NFC is also a close approximation to what any sensible terminal driver or IME is going to produce natively from a plausible keyboard layout for the relevant script. It would just make no obvious sense to start decomposing characters selected by a single keystroke (even if multiple fingers were involved), table entry selection, or equivalent. If you stick to Unicode-specified normalization (and there are no generally-known alternatives), there is nothing else "beyond" NFC. NFD and NFKD decompose, which has disadvantages implied above by both your causal hypothesis and mine. On the other hand, there is at least one modern operating system that, IIR, prefers NFD internally.=20 > The CRLF (which really has survived only because the ASR33 > needed up to 200 ms for a CR and the LF was a good excuse to > waste those other 100 ms) is no longer needed; with the > exception of a single popular operating system family, bare LF > has won the line ending competition. CRLF is one legacy > feature that it's worth getting rid of (except maybe as the > "CR-tolerance" variance), as is HT. (I'm assuming FF and > VT are no longer relevant in most of today's applications.) > All this may be a bit opinionated, but it is also > forward-looking. If full NVT is needed, we can always > reference RFC 5198; MNU is for the cases where that is not > needed. I think you are wrong about the above although I could provide an even better justification for obsolescence based on trying to simulate "extended Latin" characters by overstriking. For example, in Unicode, we have "=C3=B3" (U+00F3) and U+006F = U+0301, which turns into U+00F3 if NFC is applied, but consider the ASCII=20 o BS ' an example that turns out to be historically very important. =20 > I hope this doesn't come over as too brash =E2=80=94 I really = like > RFC 5198 and the careful tradeoffs it makes, but there are > lots of applications that need something simpler and MNU > reflects current practice and is a sane design for the 2020s+ > (*). As I said, I thoroughly approve of this effort. For the record, I do have one other concern. The examples above use extended Latin script. Because of its NVT origins, much of 5198 makes assumptions about that script or scripts closely related to it. If you are doing something for this century and beyond, you should really think carefully about the implications of scripts that are very different. For example, does anything change when using a script that is primarily RtoL? Do you need to be concerned about non-spacing breaks and other usually-invisible separators for strings that might be wrapped in display or where graphemes are intrinsically not monospaced? Do you need rules about rational string composition or character sequences for complex scripts? At one level, those questions are where your Einstein/Sessions comment really fits in. At another, I think what you are trying to do gets much less useful if you blow those questions off so think you should at least try to work through them. best, john >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 > [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Screen > (*): Yes, I'm fully aware that nothing about text and > writing systems is genuinely simple; Einstein/Sessions = applies. >=20 From nobody Thu Jul 11 09:31:44 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85AE2120172; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 09:31:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nHSCqQyx3l9P; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 09:31:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 19874120106; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 09:31:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1hlbyr-000Kg4-1z; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 12:31:37 -0400 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 12:31:31 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: "Asmus Freytag (c)" , Carsten Bormann cc: i18ndir@ietf.org, art@ietf.org Message-ID: <7F1F41C25D0AC5960D95A67E@PSB> In-Reply-To: <90f8f2b5-ff3d-f9f1-860c-ae4d43f92c81@ix.netcom.com> References: <0A5251342D480BA6437F7549@PSB> <248A8DD5DA0D3D34D6B6EFC9@PSB> <213ae024-b819-4f56-6e37-0cd53eb566c9@ix.netcom.com> <90f8f2b5-ff3d-f9f1-860c-ae4d43f92c81@ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [I18ndir] Modern Network Unicode X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 16:31:43 -0000 (top post and adding the ART list back in) Carsten,=20 I think Asmus and I are in complete agreement, but you might find an attempt to summarize the state of work for relevant characteristics and behaviors on the web, some of which interact with this discussion, illuminating. It is a chart with explanation, not a long document. See https://w3c.github.io/typography/gap-analysis/language-matrix.htm= l=20 best, john --On Thursday, July 11, 2019 08:51 -0700 "Asmus Freytag (c)" wrote: > On 7/11/2019 12:03 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> On Jul 11, 2019, at 01:00, Asmus Freytag >> wrote: >>> There are a few scripts where un-normalized text is >>> "preferred" by the user community over NFC. In some cases, >>> the most natural ordering of combining marks does not match >>> NFC's canonical ordering. I other cases, NFC does not >>> compose some sequences while local user communities strongly >>> prefer the precomposed code points (e.g. Bengali). >> Interesting. There are also a few writing systems where NFC >> is what is strongly preferred by the user community. >>=20 >> Is there any effort to capture these preferences in a formal >> way so they become more accessible to international developer >> communities? >=20 > No. Note least because these preferences may not be stable > over (longish) periods of time as they depend a bit on what > keyboards / rendering platforms and apps handle best today. >=20 > A./ >=20 >>=20 >>> Those scripts would be an exception to John's statement: " >>> NFC is also a close approximation to what any sensible >>> terminal driver or IME is going to produce natively from a >>> plausible keyboard layout for the relevant script", a >>> statement that otherwise holds well. >> Right. It is interesting to see how Apple recently moved >> from a normalizing file system (HFS+ was normalizing [to NFD >> unfortunately, and using UTF-16 on disk]) to a >> normalization-preserving, normalize-before-comparison >> ("normalization-insensitive") file system (APFS). It is >> also interesting how the problem is "solved" in >> applications such as git (core.precomposeunicode needs to be >> set to true on platforms that tend to generate non-NFC names >> so other platforms can pretend to stay blissfully unaware). >>=20 >> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >>=20 >=20 From nobody Thu Jul 11 09:44:34 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F18A21201DC; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 09:44:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6BF6Sv0418Fs; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 09:44:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1322B120172; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 09:44:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.110] (p5089AF0A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.175.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 45l22g3zFNzydB; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 18:44:27 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <7F1F41C25D0AC5960D95A67E@PSB> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 18:44:26 +0200 Cc: "Asmus Freytag (c)" , i18ndir@ietf.org, art@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 584556264.963564-3f0646a8553f923a961bffcff3260cbe Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <0A5251342D480BA6437F7549@PSB> <248A8DD5DA0D3D34D6B6EFC9@PSB> <213ae024-b819-4f56-6e37-0cd53eb566c9@ix.netcom.com> <90f8f2b5-ff3d-f9f1-860c-ae4d43f92c81@ix.netcom.com> <7F1F41C25D0AC5960D95A67E@PSB> To: John C Klensin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [I18ndir] Modern Network Unicode X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 16:44:33 -0000 On Jul 11, 2019, at 18:31, John C Klensin wrote: >=20 > (top post and adding the ART list back in) >=20 > Carsten,=20 > I think Asmus and I are in complete agreement, but you might > find an attempt to summarize the state of work for relevant > characteristics and behaviors on the web, some of which interact > with this discussion, illuminating. It is a chart with > explanation, not a long document. See > https://w3c.github.io/typography/gap-analysis/language-matrix.html=20 Thank you for this interesting link. This is very condensed information; what column should I look for = specifically on the issue of normalization and applicability of NFC? E.g., in the linked page https://w3c.github.io/iip/gap-analysis/beng-gap = I find something about grapheme clusters but nothing about normalization = =E2=80=94 normalization of course is not an immediate need for Web = interoperability. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Jul 11 10:25:33 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A677A120478; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 10:25:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YI6-KVScqVSU; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 10:25:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EC581120475; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 10:25:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1hlcol-000L4B-CK; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 13:25:15 -0400 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 13:25:09 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Carsten Bormann cc: "Asmus Freytag (c)" , i18ndir@ietf.org, art@ietf.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <0A5251342D480BA6437F7549@PSB> <248A8DD5DA0D3D34D6B6EFC9@PSB> <213ae024-b819-4f56-6e37-0cd53eb566c9@ix.netcom.com> <90f8f2b5-ff3d-f9f1-860c-ae4d43f92c81@ix.netcom.com> <7F1F41C25D0AC5960D95A67E@PSB> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [I18ndir] Modern Network Unicode X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 17:25:26 -0000 --On Thursday, July 11, 2019 18:44 +0200 Carsten Bormann wrote: > On Jul 11, 2019, at 18:31, John C Klensin > wrote: >>=20 >> (top post and adding the ART list back in) >>=20 >> Carsten,=20 >> I think Asmus and I are in complete agreement, but you might >> find an attempt to summarize the state of work for relevant >> characteristics and behaviors on the web, some of which >> interact with this discussion, illuminating. It is a chart >> with explanation, not a long document. See >> https://w3c.github.io/typography/gap-analysis/language-matrix >> .html=20 >=20 > Thank you for this interesting link. > This is very condensed information; what column should I look > for specifically on the issue of normalization and > applicability of NFC? E.g., in the linked page > https://w3c.github.io/iip/gap-analysis/beng-gap I find > something about grapheme clusters but nothing about > normalization =E2=80=94 normalization of course is not an = immediate > need for Web interoperability. I'll try to hunt for it when I have time unless someone else gets to it first, but there are W3C recommendations that specifically recommend against trying to insert a normalization step before transmission or immediately before storage but focusing on it as a comparison-time operation. That is consistent with what Asmus and I have been trying to tell you. =20 Let me try to summarize those comments in a different way: (1) For most language-script combinations, the form in which a network application gets a string is usually going to be the right form for that string. If there is a strong preference that the string be normalized, it will probably come to the network application (and probably when it leaves something rather close to the keyboard) normalized. If there is a strong preference that it not be normalized, it will probably come to you in _that_ form. If there is no preference at all, normalizing the string (as long as you stay away from NFKC/NFDC) will probably not cause harm, but it won't buy much either. (2) Checking as to whether a string is normalized before sending it is unlikely to produce any safely actionable information unless you know a lot about the language, script, and circumstances. (3) If a string is unnormalized for what whomever created it thinks is a good reason, then normalizing on general principles is going to lose whatever information that decision was intended to convey. =20 The above may be different for strings that are specifically intended as identifiers, but I don't think that is what you are talking about. I used to believe that "normalize everywhere" and "store strings only in normalized form" was a good idea, but I've been gradually (and sometimes quite unpleasantly) educated by a long series of cases and counterexamples. If I were updating 5198 today, that recommendation is the thing I would be most likely to either change or at least moderate and qualify considerably. john From nobody Thu Jul 11 14:40:13 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F035120159; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 14:40:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.702 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n91BDgxphHSn; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 14:40:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-xb43.google.com (mail-yb1-xb43.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b43]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A0931120112; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 14:40:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb43.google.com with SMTP id a5so3137103ybo.13; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 14:40:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=rTNepuW5guoqF3Su4Hd3hn7eQR8HoGcoUrtDSP5SSuk=; b=MdaHZ1NHjZAh2Yu8CMh4wJuiyACcspSeZbX5CCBsyJ6uqIXQxAfTbFyedfT5C+sl4r JDrRAMkwSyqNGuYSmHcem3/jbFoLvbOhKCw4krEVH2EOgvt7Xsp3/wXprobqhh8QlW+s H6hWemYEsj7vRfp0D7L8iPmfVVJl89yC5BZhCf5FGLD5NtlKDbrbsdG2F0i+T+vybtsM ka4/trBWsGHrB+Nz++ojE+/wUjVWdBw3F6b8/LjPRVTzg/Og75ywAezfmiVPpoorqAST xwNOpT6bIzrToHCGiDmxMHTGpXZJ4mqNxOMu02s9jvrpplqP2wEE5phWRpnTwbE7qNsv mbSA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=rTNepuW5guoqF3Su4Hd3hn7eQR8HoGcoUrtDSP5SSuk=; b=YjcpZQuFmirw+VjUdUlVKw+G2/8b5DtpU2iqIpmoAmfRWOHTjxqBJtoUPoFENmq2mj iHKkSWgGpEoFFd+QBSBhxbwc1tvlZ4zCCZ4u3U7ZUXpbpC+qZv7ukHuF5JanWUx6l4Df BxrWbeHt71GVHFoBPZcKdLtq8cttR9Md1NJbI7wFFWU5o9+nyVQ00oDg2AB11FNzvKm3 V6NaWa9/KLUyMd2RA+pBNG+jex2ZG3wxNGzqrbfCQW06CwdAc063GrDYmow6t37ItnlG AyVtbP90Sa87G3FC0o57atO5WFOyGrFS9rSWOoWiQSIhjH9ScU1Qee1vR+1a/HXXdma6 qjfg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWkrdLehnLSwPi4HaKiY8+4dve/CXxTX/456CaARgCFObBXTXzR T7rVZGNKCvvQ/3sBEhiTp0OBW/WrVwgEiUR3jaU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwOiPUKKaB3c7GwTUO7cwHNBBisAELASg0AwesAwlgUy5XyioL7AY6b4CvyQlo4bX7847Is0UucOgrH5v3OZPc= X-Received: by 2002:a25:d252:: with SMTP id j79mr4304660ybg.236.1562881207843; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 14:40:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0A5251342D480BA6437F7549@PSB> <248A8DD5DA0D3D34D6B6EFC9@PSB> <213ae024-b819-4f56-6e37-0cd53eb566c9@ix.netcom.com> <90f8f2b5-ff3d-f9f1-860c-ae4d43f92c81@ix.netcom.com> <7F1F41C25D0AC5960D95A67E@PSB> In-Reply-To: From: Ira McDonald Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 17:41:58 -0400 Message-ID: To: John C Klensin , Ira McDonald Cc: Carsten Bormann , art@ietf.org, "Asmus Freytag (c)" , i18ndir@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000383f5b058d6ea3c8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [I18ndir] Modern Network Unicode X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 21:40:11 -0000 --000000000000383f5b058d6ea3c8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Carsten - thanks for working on this MNU draft. John - thanks for you excellent background comments. FWIW - IEEE-ISTO PWG 5100.3 IPP Everywhere (a very widely implemented driverless printing profile of IETF STD92 Internet Printing Protocol 1.1 and a few other PWG IPP extensions) makes RFC 5198 and NFC normalization mandatory for IPP Server generated names, keywords, and text strings and mandatory for IPP Client submitted names and keywords. But IPP's purpose is reliable document printing (the document content may, of course, be in some legacy charset, but must be tagged) and most string attributes are names (like job names) or keyword= s (fonts, media, etc.), so pure NFC w/ restricted C0 characters makes sense. IPP Everywhere does have this warning in Internationalization Considerations: "WARNING =E2=80=93 Performing normalization on UTF-8 strings received from = IPP Clients and subsequently storing the results (e.g., in IPP Job objects) could cause false negatives in IPP Client searches and failed access (e.g., to IPP Printers with percent-encoded UTF-8 URIs now 'hidden')." Which speaks to John's point about the disadvantages of automatic NFC (or any other normalization). Cheers, - Ira Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG Co-Chair - TCG Metadata Access Protocol SG Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG Internet Printing Protocol WG IETF Designated Expert - IPP & Printer MIB Blue Roof Music / High North Inc http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc mailto: blueroofmusic@gmail.com PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 906-494-2434 On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 1:25 PM John C Klensin wrote: > > > --On Thursday, July 11, 2019 18:44 +0200 Carsten Bormann > wrote: > > > On Jul 11, 2019, at 18:31, John C Klensin > > wrote: > >> > >> (top post and adding the ART list back in) > >> > >> Carsten, > >> I think Asmus and I are in complete agreement, but you might > >> find an attempt to summarize the state of work for relevant > >> characteristics and behaviors on the web, some of which > >> interact with this discussion, illuminating. It is a chart > >> with explanation, not a long document. See > >> https://w3c.github.io/typography/gap-analysis/language-matrix > >> .html > > > > Thank you for this interesting link. > > This is very condensed information; what column should I look > > for specifically on the issue of normalization and > > applicability of NFC? E.g., in the linked page > > https://w3c.github.io/iip/gap-analysis/beng-gap I find > > something about grapheme clusters but nothing about > > normalization =E2=80=94 normalization of course is not an immediate > > need for Web interoperability. > > I'll try to hunt for it when I have time unless someone else > gets to it first, but there are W3C recommendations that > specifically recommend against trying to insert a normalization > step before transmission or immediately before storage but > focusing on it as a comparison-time operation. That is > consistent with what Asmus and I have been trying to tell you. > > Let me try to summarize those comments in a different way: > > (1) For most language-script combinations, the form in which a > network application gets a string is usually going to be the > right form for that string. If there is a strong preference > that the string be normalized, it will probably come to the > network application (and probably when it leaves something > rather close to the keyboard) normalized. If there is a strong > preference that it not be normalized, it will probably come to > you in _that_ form. If there is no preference at all, > normalizing the string (as long as you stay away from NFKC/NFDC) > will probably not cause harm, but it won't buy much either. > > (2) Checking as to whether a string is normalized before sending > it is unlikely to produce any safely actionable information > unless you know a lot about the language, script, and > circumstances. > > (3) If a string is unnormalized for what whomever created it > thinks is a good reason, then normalizing on general principles > is going to lose whatever information that decision was intended > to convey. > > The above may be different for strings that are specifically > intended as identifiers, but I don't think that is what you are > talking about. I used to believe that "normalize everywhere" > and "store strings only in normalized form" was a good idea, but > I've been gradually (and sometimes quite unpleasantly) educated > by a long series of cases and counterexamples. If I were > updating 5198 today, that recommendation is the thing I would be > most likely to either change or at least moderate and qualify > considerably. > > john > > > _______________________________________________ > art mailing list > art@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art > --000000000000383f5b058d6ea3c8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

Carsten - thanks for wor= king on this MNU draft.

John - thanks for you = excellent background comments.

FWIW - IEEE-ISTO PW= G 5100.3 IPP Everywhere (a very widely implemented
driverles= s printing profile of IETF STD92 Internet Printing Protocol 1.1 and a few <= br>
other PWG IPP extensions) makes RFC 5198 and NFC normalizatio= n mandatory
for IPP Server generated names, keywords, and te= xt strings and mandatory for
IPP Client submitted names and = keywords.=C2=A0 But IPP's purpose is reliable document
printi= ng (the document content may, of course, be in some legacy charset, but mus= t
be tagged) and most string attributes are names (like job names= ) or keywords
(fonts, media, etc.), so pure NFC w/ restricted C0 = characters makes sense.

IPP Everywhere does ha= ve this warning in Internationalization Considerations:

"WARNING =E2=80=93 Performing normalization on UTF-8 strings rec= eived from IPP Clients and
subsequently storing the results (e.g., in IP= P Job objects) could cause false negatives in
IPP Client searches and fa= iled access (e.g., to IPP Printers with percent-encoded UTF-8
URIs now &= #39;hidden')."

Which speaks to John's= point about the disadvantages of automatic NFC
(or any other nor= malization).

Cheers,
- Ira=C2=A0

Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Archite= ct)
Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG
Co-Chair - TC= G Metadata Access Protocol SG
Chair - Linux Found= ation Open Printing WG
Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group
Co= -Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG Internet Printing Protocol WG
IETF Designated Exp= ert - IPP & Printer MIB
Blue Roof Music / High North Inc
http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic
http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc
ma= ilto: blueroof= music@gmail.com
PO Box 221=C2=A0 Grand Marais, MI 49839=C2=A0 906-49= 4-2434

<= /div>

<= /div>

On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 1:25 PM John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> wrote:


--On Thursday, July 11, 2019 18:44 +0200 Carsten Bormann
<cabo@tzi.org> = wrote:

> On Jul 11, 2019, at 18:31, John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> (top post and adding the ART list back in)
>>
>> Carsten,
>> I think Asmus and I are in complete agreement, but you might
>> find an attempt to summarize the state of work for relevant
>> characteristics and behaviors on the web, some of which
>> interact with this discussion, illuminating.=C2=A0 It is a chart >> with explanation, not a long document.=C2=A0 See
>> https://w3c.github.io/typograp= hy/gap-analysis/language-matrix
>> .html
>
> Thank you for this interesting link.
> This is very condensed information; what column should I look
> for specifically on the issue of normalization and
> applicability of NFC? E.g., in the linked page
> https://w3c.github.io/iip/gap-analysis/beng-gap<= /a> I find
> something about grapheme clusters but nothing about
> normalization =E2=80=94 normalization of course is not an immediate > need for Web interoperability.

I'll try to hunt for it when I have time unless someone else
gets to it first, but there are W3C recommendations that
specifically recommend against trying to insert a normalization
step before transmission or immediately before storage but
focusing on it as a comparison-time operation.=C2=A0 =C2=A0That is
consistent with what Asmus and I have been trying to tell you.=C2=A0

Let me try to summarize those comments in a different way:

(1) For most language-script combinations, the form in which a
network application gets a string is usually going to be the
right form for that string.=C2=A0 If there is a strong preference
that the string be normalized, it will probably come to the
network application (and probably when it leaves something
rather close to the keyboard) normalized.=C2=A0 If there is a strong
preference that it not be normalized, it will probably come to
you in _that_ form.=C2=A0 If there is no preference at all,
normalizing the string (as long as you stay away from NFKC/NFDC)
will probably not cause harm, but it won't buy much either.

(2) Checking as to whether a string is normalized before sending
it is unlikely to produce any safely actionable information
unless you know a lot about the language, script, and
circumstances.

(3) If a string is unnormalized for what whomever created it
thinks is a good reason, then normalizing on general principles
is going to lose whatever information that decision was intended
to convey.=C2=A0

The above may be different for strings that are specifically
intended as identifiers, but I don't think that is what you are
talking about.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I used to believe that "normalize everywhe= re"
and "store strings only in normalized form" was a good idea, but<= br> I've been gradually (and sometimes quite unpleasantly) educated
by a long series of cases and counterexamples.=C2=A0 =C2=A0If I were
updating 5198 today, that recommendation is the thing I would be
most likely to either change or at least moderate and qualify
considerably.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 john


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--000000000000383f5b058d6ea3c8-- From nobody Thu Jul 11 16:47:47 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31C9E12007A; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 16:47:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9Vq1bTbX34gr; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 16:47:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4DAF612006A; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 16:47:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.110] (p548DCE40.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.206.64]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 45lCR14fHfzyY5; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 01:47:41 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 01:46:41 +0200 Cc: John C Klensin , art@ietf.org, "Asmus Freytag (c)" , i18ndir@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 584581599.285125-eb0ae30096202d4a412d581536d09c87 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0C841343-CD67-40A2-9C37-F5EB5B9DFF8C@tzi.org> References: <0A5251342D480BA6437F7549@PSB> <248A8DD5DA0D3D34D6B6EFC9@PSB> <213ae024-b819-4f56-6e37-0cd53eb566c9@ix.netcom.com> <90f8f2b5-ff3d-f9f1-860c-ae4d43f92c81@ix.netcom.com> <7F1F41C25D0AC5960D95A67E@PSB> To: Ira McDonald X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [I18ndir] Modern Network Unicode X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 23:47:46 -0000 This is a great discussion. To me, it seems to converge on the following. (1) Sending sane data is the job of the data originator. =20 (2) Do not include gratuitous normalization steps in your processing, = once the data have been originated in a sane form. (2a) If you broke it, you fix it (as far as possible): If your = processing steps did involve gratuitous normalization, you have to = renormalize to NFC before sending. Here, =E2=80=9Csane=E2=80=9D is defined as: (0) Data SHOULD be originated in NFC, unless that would be inappropriate = for the specific script, in which case the community consensus rules for = the script govern. For Latin script, this happens to collapse to what 5198 says. This set of rules places the onus on the place where the data is = generated, which is usually the place that knows most about the specific = script and about the intent of the originator. If you know that place = isn=E2=80=99t doing its job, add the rule: (1a) If the data originator does not do (0), the software placing the = data on the network may need to sanitize (normalize towards sane). 1a is similar to 2a in that it doesn=E2=80=99t create perfect results, = so both SHOULD be avoided =E2=80=94 there is no way to, after the fact, = perfectly sanitize data that weren=E2=80=99t originated sane or that = were gratuitously normalized on the way. With these definitions, MNU can direct towards:=20 (A) Senders: send sane data (B) Recipients: break as little as reasonable when data received isn=E2=80= =99t sane (C) B is not a valid excuse not to do A, and specifically: recipients = are not expected to clean up after senders (because there is no correct = way to do that). (Rule C is the often forgotten third rule of the Postel principle. It also means that an entity that is a recipient of MNU and then sends = the data on as MNU has no need to gratuitously normalize, but it does = not entirely get rid of rule 1a for recipients of data from places known = not to be sane.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Jul 11 19:36:40 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F1FA12004D; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 19:36:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LRQ2w0Au1CRY; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 19:36:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 29D0912001E; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 19:36:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1hllQH-0000Yk-Pj; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 22:36:33 -0400 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 22:36:28 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Carsten Bormann , Ira McDonald cc: art@ietf.org, "Asmus Freytag (c)" , i18ndir@ietf.org Message-ID: <3A4F6E9D943A8ECC0108A468@PSB> In-Reply-To: <0C841343-CD67-40A2-9C37-F5EB5B9DFF8C@tzi.org> References: <0A5251342D480BA6437F7549@PSB> <248A8DD5DA0D3D34D6B6EFC9@PSB> <213ae024-b819-4f56-6e37-0cd53eb566c9@ix.netcom.com> <90f8f2b5-ff3d-f9f1-860c-ae4d43f92c81@ix.netcom.com> <7F1F41C25D0AC5960D95A67E@PSB> <0C841343-CD67-40A2-9C37-F5EB5B9DFF8C@tzi.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [I18ndir] Modern Network Unicode X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 02:36:39 -0000 --On Friday, July 12, 2019 01:46 +0200 Carsten Bormann wrote: > This is a great discussion. >=20 > To me, it seems to converge on the following. >=20 > (1) Sending sane data is the job of the data originator. =20 >=20 > (2) Do not include gratuitous normalization steps in your > processing, once the data have been originated in a sane form. >=20 > (2a) If you broke it, you fix it (as far as possible): If your > processing steps did involve gratuitous normalization, you > have to renormalize to NFC before sending. >=20 > Here, "sane" is defined as: >=20 > (0) Data SHOULD be originated in NFC, unless that would be > inappropriate for the specific script, in which case the > community consensus rules for the script govern. >=20 > For Latin script, this happens to collapse to what 5198 says. >=20 > This set of rules places the onus on the place where the data > is generated, which is usually the place that knows most about > the specific script and about the intent of the originator. > If you know that place isn't doing its job, add the rule: >=20 > (1a) If the data originator does not do (0), the software > placing the data on the network may need to sanitize > (normalize towards sane). >=20 > 1a is similar to 2a in that it doesn't create perfect > results, so both SHOULD be avoided =E2=80=94 there is no way = to, > after the fact, perfectly sanitize data that weren't > originated sane or that were gratuitously normalized on the > way. >=20 > With these definitions, MNU can direct towards:=20 > (A) Senders: send sane data > (B) Recipients: break as little as reasonable when data > received isn't sane=20 > (C) B is not a valid excuse not to do A, > and specifically: recipients are not expected to clean up > after senders (because there is no correct way to do that). >=20 > (Rule C is the often forgotten third rule of the Postel > principle. It also means that an entity that is a recipient of > MNU and then sends the data on as MNU has no need to > gratuitously normalize, but it does not entirely get rid of > rule 1a for recipients of data from places known not to be > sane.) I think this is exactly right. And, fwiw, I agree with your observation about the Postel principle. john From nobody Fri Jul 12 09:45:40 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48F6A120191 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 09:45:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=comodoca.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K-r-5512shR3 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 09:45:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NAM01-BY2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com 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X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM5PR17MB0937 Archived-At: Subject: [art] Against BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 16:45:37 -0000 RHVyaW5nIElFU0cgcmV2aWV3IG9mIFJGQzY5NjItYmlzIChDZXJ0aWZpY2F0ZSBUcmFuc3BhcmVu Y3kgVmVyc2lvbiANCjIuMCksIEJDUCAxOTAgaXMgY3JlYXRpbmcgc2lnbmlmaWNhbnQgcHJvYmxl bXMgaW4gc3RhbmRhcmRpemluZyANCkhUVFAtYmFzZWQgQVBJcy4gIFNwZWNpZmljYWxseSwgdGhp cyBwYXJhZ3JhcGggb2Ygc2VjdGlvbiAyLjMgDQooaHR0cHM6Ly90b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1s L2JjcDE5MCNzZWN0aW9uLTIuMyk6DQoNCiAgICBTcGVjaWZ5aW5nIGEgZml4ZWQgcGF0aCByZWxh dGl2ZSB0byBhbm90aGVyIChlLmcuLCB7d2hhdGV2ZXJ9L215YXBwKQ0KICAgIGlzIGFsc28gYmFk IHByYWN0aWNlIChldmVuIGlmICJ3aGF0ZXZlciIgaXMgZGlzY292ZXJlZCBhcyBzdWdnZXN0ZWQN CiAgICBpbiBTZWN0aW9uIDMpOyB3aGlsZSBkb2luZyBzbyBtaWdodCBwcmV2ZW50IGNvbGxpc2lv 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IHNhbWUgbWFubmVyIGFzIA0KUkZDNjk2MiAod2l0aCAiL2N0L3YxIiBjaGFuZ2VkIHRvICIvY3Qv djIiKS4NCg0KQkNQIDE5MCBpcyBzdGFuZGluZyBpbiB0aGUgd2F5IG9mIHN0YW5kYXJkaXppbmcg c2ltcGxlLCBzZW5zaWJsZSBIVFRQIA0KQVBJcyBhbmQgc2hvdWxkIGJlIGFtZW5kZWQuDQoNClRo YW5rcywNCg0KLS0gDQpSb2IgU3RyYWRsaW5nDQpTZW5pb3IgUmVzZWFyY2ggJiBEZXZlbG9wbWVu dCBTY2llbnRpc3QNClNlY3RpZ28gTGltaXRlZA0K From nobody Fri Jul 12 12:03:38 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98CB5120926 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 12:03:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.107 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.107 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.247, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MwM31-Z4k8um for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 12:03:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-f43.google.com (mail-ot1-f43.google.com [209.85.210.43]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9F102120919 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 12:03:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-f43.google.com with SMTP id e8so10455760otl.7 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 12:03:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=pmSdyI6U9ybAqys6q7UUiNig0BqUhPgVrrdBv1Y29d0=; b=CjNEKAwx5tKreoSj1JWmy4Mvb7y/klqrzEEslOlYfd/znRC5mrtvEipQoEzuBE6BVD 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[art] Against BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 19:03:37 -0000 --000000000000ccc11b058d80900d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I see two separate problems here with relative paths 1) The path is an extension {whatever}/foo/bar 2) The path climbs the tree {whatever} =3D ../fred The problem dealing with the second is that you end up with security issues that affect ZIP files every five years as the code is re-implemented by a new person who makes the old mistake. So unzipping a zip archive ends up overwriting the hosts file or whatever and allows the machine to be rooted. I see no problem with {whatever}/foo/bar if whatever is a simple prefix. But it is not an approach to Web Service design I find particularly useful any more. Unless a Web service is genuinely a data retrieval problem, it is not going to use HTTP for anything more than expanding the effective number of ports on the machine and punching a hole in the firewall. Both are necessary and useful. But they use about 5% of the capabilities of HTTP if that. My view therefore is that as TLS everywhere and QUIC take over, we should look forward to being able to specify a new UDP based transport for 'Web Service' binding that is designed to meet the needs of Web services and nothing else. The firewall bypass to be provided by TLS/QUIC. So all we need to provide at the 'Web Service' layer is a means of disambiguating the sub-service protocol. So where I expect we will end up in 5-10 years time is that 'Web Services' run over a different transport where the interaction looks something like Client: Service: Client: Etc... Since this would just be using the protocol multiplexing and data framing capabilities of HTTP, it can be a lot simpler than HTTP. We don't want to cache in the network (which hasn't worked since SSL) and we certainly don't want content negotiation. I don't like REST because I don't find URIs a useful data encoding and see no value in splitting the request semantics between the URI path and the POST body. Just do it all in JSON, stick it all in the body and then you have a simple way to wrap it with a signature or an application level keyed MAC if you need it. So that is where I think we should try to head. Just make the traffic look as nearly like TLS as allows firewall traversal and make sure that legacy clients and services can downgrade to HTTP. Web Services require almost none of the functionality of HTTP/1.1 so I see no reason they would benefit from HTTP/2. On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 12:45 PM Rob Stradling wrote: > During IESG review of RFC6962-bis (Certificate Transparency Version > 2.0), BCP 190 is creating significant problems in standardizing > HTTP-based APIs. Specifically, this paragraph of section 2.3 > (https://tools.ietf.org/html/bcp190#section-2.3): > > Specifying a fixed path relative to another (e.g., {whatever}/myapp) > is also bad practice (even if "whatever" is discovered as suggested > in Section 3); while doing so might prevent collisions, it does not > avoid the potential for operational difficulties (for example, an > implementation that prefers to use query processing instead, because > of implementation constraints). > > This paragraph should be struck. It is out of date, since all modern > web servers can trivially rewrite paths to query components and back > again. It also encourages inserting levels of indirection that add > complexity and bugs. > > In RFC6962, all paths are specified relative to a "log server" prefix > that can contain a path as well as a server name and a port: > > POST https:///ct/v1/add-chain > GET https:///ct/v1/get-sth > GET https:///ct/v1/get-entries?start=3D1000&end=3D2000 > =E2=80=A6 5 more request types defined similarly ... > > This version of CT, which preceded BCP 190, has been in production use > for several years, with multiple independent implementers on both the > server side and the client side. There have been no complaints that > specifying paths in these ways is at all difficult or interferes with > operation of other software. > > A similar problem arose during ACME standardization. At first it was > solved by defining a "straight through" issuance path where each step > provided a URL for the next step. This was abandoned because there are > plenty of issuance cases that are not straight-through - for instance, > revocation. Now ACME indirects all requests through a "directory" JSON > object that maps, e.g. "newAuthz" to "https://example.com/newAuthz". > This works moderately well, but adds complexity, increases the total > number of requests, and as it turns out, may have bugs > (https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?eid=3D5771). > > For 6962-bis, the TRANS WG has cycled through three different attempts > to work around BCP 190: a .well-known path prefixing all the paths > defined by the API, a directory, and treating the entire set of request > types as parameters to a log definition delivered out of band. All were > found to be unsatisfactory. The affected URI owners (log operators) are > being prevented by BCP 190 from doing what they would prefer to do with > their URI space, which is to use URIs constructed in the same manner as > RFC6962 (with "/ct/v1" changed to "/ct/v2"). > > BCP 190 is standing in the way of standardizing simple, sensible HTTP > APIs and should be amended. > > Thanks, > > -- > Rob Stradling > Senior Research & Development Scientist > Sectigo Limited > _______________________________________________ > art mailing list > art@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art > --000000000000ccc11b058d80900d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I s= ee two separate problems here with relative paths

1) The path is an extension {whatever}/foo/bar
2) The path climbs= the tree {whatever} =3D ../fred

The problem dealing with the second is that you end up with sec= urity issues that affect ZIP files every five years as the code is re-imple= mented by a new person who makes the old mistake. So unzipping a zip archiv= e ends up overwriting the hosts file or whatever and allows the machine to = be rooted.

=
I see no probl= em with {whatever}/foo/bar if whatever is a simple prefix. But it is not an= approach to Web Service design I find particularly useful any more. Unless= a Web service is genuinely a data retrieval problem, it is not going to us= e HTTP for anything more than expanding the effective number of ports on th= e machine and punching a hole in the firewall. Both are necessary and usefu= l. But they use about 5% of the capabilities of HTTP if that.

My view therefore is that as TLS every= where and QUIC take over, we should look forward to being able to specify a= new UDP based transport for 'Web Service' binding that is designed= to meet the needs of Web services and nothing else. The firewall bypass to= be provided by TLS/QUIC. So all we need to provide at the 'Web Service= ' layer is a means of disambiguating the sub-service protocol.

So where I expect we will end up = in 5-10 years time is that 'Web Services' run over a different tran= sport where the interaction looks something like

Client: <well-known> <length> <binar= y data>
Serv= ice: <length> <binary data>
Client: <length>= ; <binary data>

Etc...

Since this would just be using the= protocol multiplexing and data framing capabilities of HTTP, it can be a l= ot simpler than HTTP. We don't want to cache in the network (which hasn= 't worked since SSL) and we certainly don't want content negotiatio= n.

I don't like REST = because I don't find URIs a useful data encoding and see no value in sp= litting the request semantics between the URI path and the POST body. Just = do it all in JSON, stick it all in the body and then you have a simple way = to wrap it with a signature or an application level keyed MAC if you need i= t.

So that is where I thi= nk we should try to head. Just make the traffic look as nearly like TLS as = allows firewall traversal and make sure that legacy clients and services ca= n downgrade to HTTP.

Web = Services require almost none of the functionality of HTTP/1.1 so I see no r= eason they would benefit from HTTP/2.


On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 12:45 PM Rob Strad= ling <rob@sectigo.com> wrote:<= br>
During IESG revi= ew of RFC6962-bis (Certificate Transparency Version
2.0), BCP 190 is creating significant problems in standardizing
HTTP-based APIs.=C2=A0 Specifically, this paragraph of section 2.3
(https://tools.ietf.org/html/bcp190#section-2.3):<= br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Specifying a fixed path relative to another (e.g., {whatever}= /myapp)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 is also bad practice (even if "whatever" is discove= red as suggested
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in Section 3); while doing so might prevent collisions, it do= es not
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 avoid the potential for operational difficulties (for example= , an
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 implementation that prefers to use query processing instead, = because
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 of implementation constraints).

This paragraph should be struck.=C2=A0 It is out of date, since all modern =
web servers can trivially rewrite paths to query components and back
again.=C2=A0 It also encourages inserting levels of indirection that add complexity and bugs.

In RFC6962, all paths are specified relative to a "log server" pr= efix
that can contain a path as well as a server name and a port:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0POST https://<log server>/ct/v1/add-chain
=C2=A0 =C2=A0GET https://<log server>/ct/v1/get-sth
=C2=A0 =C2=A0GET https://<log server>/ct/v1/get-entries?start=3D1000&= amp;end=3D2000
=C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=A6 5 more request types defined similarly ...

This version of CT, which preceded BCP 190, has been in production use
for several years, with multiple independent implementers on both the
server side and the client side.=C2=A0 There have been no complaints that <= br> specifying paths in these ways is at all difficult or interferes with
operation of other software.

A similar problem arose during ACME standardization.=C2=A0 At first it was =
solved by defining a "straight through" issuance path where each = step
provided a URL for the next step.=C2=A0 This was abandoned because there ar= e
plenty of issuance cases that are not straight-through - for instance,
revocation.=C2=A0 Now ACME indirects all requests through a "directory= " JSON
object that maps, e.g. "newAuthz" to "https://example.com= /newAuthz".
This works moderately well, but adds complexity, increases the total
number of requests, and as it turns out, may have bugs
(https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php= ?eid=3D5771).

For 6962-bis, the TRANS WG has cycled through three different attempts
to work around BCP 190: a .well-known path prefixing all the paths
defined by the API, a directory, and treating the entire set of request types as parameters to a log definition delivered out of band.=C2=A0 All we= re
found to be unsatisfactory.=C2=A0 The affected URI owners (log operators) a= re
being prevented by BCP 190 from doing what they would prefer to do with their URI space, which is to use URIs constructed in the same manner as RFC6962 (with "/ct/v1" changed to "/ct/v2").

BCP 190 is standing in the way of standardizing simple, sensible HTTP
APIs and should be amended.

Thanks,

--
Rob Stradling
Senior Research & Development Scientist
Sectigo Limited
_______________________________________________
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art@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art
--000000000000ccc11b058d80900d-- From nobody Fri Jul 12 12:47:36 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE5911202A6 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 12:47:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=opendkim.org header.b=QfadITQI; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=elandsys.com header.b=MCOINlxb Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iHqsBe8znmKE for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 12:47:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5586B120225 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 12:47:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DESKTOP-K6V9C2L.elandsys.com ([102.115.143.84]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id x6CJlJSF027191 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 12 Jul 2019 12:47:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1562960850; x=1563047250; bh=nipJYgyLGCVK5C7+kZZFbtbrDAQzS0ZtlcvvSLL3gZE=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=QfadITQIsDp+BvQTLJNko4Fml1aBvsRo8BHEmbv/MZgwydP5eRHzoyYzBFPufpZI2 io9yxHJcxx2RdS24/kgjkdcQE8vjHs8xB4D+zzR5UJLRlpUk7xaskk+5O6FSSLjMgM HPJS1m1xiAPm3k/pmid81WOK42bCsCpFNo3dCUBQ= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1562960850; x=1563047250; i=@elandsys.com; bh=nipJYgyLGCVK5C7+kZZFbtbrDAQzS0ZtlcvvSLL3gZE=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=MCOINlxbuO6aHxARzjr4YcRT9fQ1gtKn11DnF6tSKZjZO+Dd4OmsQiFOC13Z9u5Xu o3VSdwU/tYMRoewO5n0A//jt9b6+F18bE2Fdqgs0E4EZpRyfjUWP/xQ3v3nre6ZNrV gN06fdHF+yFFjAabpgLHG/CMnoFZ3/XH6UBKlkWc= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20190712124133.0bf7b938@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 12:46:18 -0700 To: Mark Nottingham , art@ietf.org From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: <791b33b8-4696-f69c-aca3-8838b2caafd8@sectigo.com> References: <791b33b8-4696-f69c-aca3-8838b2caafd8@sectigo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Against BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 19:47:35 -0000 Hi Mark, At 09:45 AM 12-07-2019, Rob Stradling wrote: >During IESG review of RFC6962-bis (Certificate Transparency Version >2.0), BCP 190 is creating significant problems in standardizing >HTTP-based APIs. Specifically, this paragraph of section 2.3 There was a comment from Stephen about Section 2.3 of what became RFC 7320. Do you remember whether it was addressed and how, if that is the case? Regards, S. Moonesamy From nobody Fri Jul 12 13:58:45 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EA31120331 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 13:58:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.68 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.68 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k6ViE5Q2dcj7 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 13:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2DBC51201DC for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 13:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MacBook-Pro.roach.at (99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id x6CKwOw7061114 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 12 Jul 2019 15:58:25 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1562965106; bh=AJqo0zEOEtEiszy+b9AII+tU6jjsVXKJIxTps5NkV7w=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=TE+aR9sDAmR9L6HmWRmuDB1FmGyKA/bzixzlH4LShDlUuhvbTfWZYQDlz+iIzvgnc 6m1j11/KYtlON8CLSXn/jRtLjbFGk24S6yavIY1NnyPPlVwmwvLYiyzfD1Qi5cnKHU 8KXlyDUBBR3Za/m1mXa/bROg48XfHDMQvWMCOHn8= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228] claimed to be MacBook-Pro.roach.at To: S Moonesamy , Mark Nottingham , art@ietf.org References: <791b33b8-4696-f69c-aca3-8838b2caafd8@sectigo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20190712124133.0bf7b938@elandnews.com> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <5def00d8-7bc7-5122-d0f4-0150643fd982@nostrum.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 15:58:18 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20190712124133.0bf7b938@elandnews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Against BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 20:58:43 -0000 On 7/12/19 2:46 PM, S Moonesamy wrote: > Hi Mark, > At 09:45 AM 12-07-2019, Rob Stradling wrote: >> During IESG review of RFC6962-bis (Certificate Transparency Version >> 2.0), BCP 190 is creating significant problems in standardizing >> HTTP-based APIs.  Specifically, this paragraph of section 2.3 > > There was a comment from Stephen about Section 2.3 of what became RFC > 7320.  Do you remember whether it was addressed and how, if that is > the case? It was -- the document added an example of a concern that this rule is intended to protect:     (for example, an     implementation that prefers to use query processing instead, because     of implementation constraints). /a From nobody Sat Jul 13 06:30:06 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 433A81202BA for ; Sat, 13 Jul 2019 06:30:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=opendkim.org header.b=yvC3CGii; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=elandsys.com header.b=JJnTlwqO Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xWkLIPExyhnQ for ; Sat, 13 Jul 2019 06:30:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3F6A1200FA for ; Sat, 13 Jul 2019 06:30:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DESKTOP-K6V9C2L.elandsys.com ([102.115.189.240]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id x6DDTmBN006967 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 13 Jul 2019 06:29:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1563024601; x=1563111001; bh=GLqrx7Ji31diWCzImdpehLLt6+pAE6DO853RUYY3TZ0=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=yvC3CGiiNCJoGjvmoE+zrsnWT+OV1lo2HHJ8oYFzeYfeMpzaRxp0j1MFrsuEsKs7i QHCc6uDMAEmNO5JX3E/hFf8XbQYfyBHPGxmWrdHEbsLt/AJwONCwQyo1C81U8IvdAG 5SPbWHsZCoWX0jzQbGe2vYCinZpBYeZW2GiQicDI= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1563024601; x=1563111001; i=@elandsys.com; bh=GLqrx7Ji31diWCzImdpehLLt6+pAE6DO853RUYY3TZ0=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=JJnTlwqO9Krekir9ntTVV3Me2ie888snv8rmBjS1BoWR+1yGZEQQlyjenJfthLVEq HPwAjmEIfkV/Sbd3sAz5jn3bb70GS71bebVIwl9KG6zejfcoDYwmIdvMVYcC4MJ71c f+jCdzobgPUxU1MwlcVdTz7WF70WeTsZcwatWMKE= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20190713054207.0bbd9b58@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 06:29:30 -0700 To: Rob Stradling , art@ietf.org From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: <791b33b8-4696-f69c-aca3-8838b2caafd8@sectigo.com> References: <791b33b8-4696-f69c-aca3-8838b2caafd8@sectigo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Against BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 13:30:05 -0000 Hi Rob, The short answer for your request to change RFC 7320 is to consider the example at https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/art/vcUQD4V6PlTMbzfW_89JhvhJEF0 The ACME erratum which you referred to violates the rules set by the IESG for processing of errata. I took a quick look at draft-ietf-trans-rfc6962-bis. It is not aligned with the Working Group Charter. One of the "DISCUSS" is about information disclosure; it is currently not addressed in the draft. If the Working Group is against RFC 7320, it could submit a draft to change it. I suggest considering the time it could take to get that through the IETF process. Regards, S. Moonesamy From nobody Sat Jul 13 07:25:11 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07BC5120088 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 2019 07:25:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NNnkJUgUQZ77 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 2019 07:25:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from loire.is.ed.ac.uk (loire.is.ed.ac.uk [129.215.16.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7CE21120045 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 2019 07:25:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crunchie.inf.ed.ac.uk (crunchie.inf.ed.ac.uk [129.215.202.41]) by loire.is.ed.ac.uk (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id x6DEOMEh011389 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 13 Jul 2019 15:24:22 +0100 Received: from troutbeck.inf.ed.ac.uk (troutbeck.inf.ed.ac.uk [129.215.25.32]) by crunchie.inf.ed.ac.uk (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id x6DEOK6i015576; Sat, 13 Jul 2019 15:24:21 +0100 Received: from troutbeck.inf.ed.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by troutbeck.inf.ed.ac.uk (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id x6DEOLLl011123; Sat, 13 Jul 2019 15:24:21 +0100 Received: (from ht@localhost) by troutbeck.inf.ed.ac.uk (8.14.7/8.14.7/Submit) id x6DEOKIu011121; Sat, 13 Jul 2019 15:24:20 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: troutbeck.inf.ed.ac.uk: ht set sender to ht@inf.ed.ac.uk using -f To: S Moonesamy Cc: Rob Stradling , art@ietf.org References: <791b33b8-4696-f69c-aca3-8838b2caafd8@sectigo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20190713054207.0bbd9b58@elandnews.com> From: "Henry S. Thompson" Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 15:24:20 +0100 In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20190713054207.0bbd9b58@elandnews.com> (S. Moonesamy's message of "Sat\, 13 Jul 2019 06\:29\:30 -0700") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1012 (Gnus v5.10.12) XEmacs/21.5-b34 (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Edinburgh-Scanned: at loire.is.ed.ac.uk with MIMEDefang 2.84, Sophie, Sophos Anti-Virus, Clam AntiVirus X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.84 on 129.215.16.10 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Against BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 14:25:09 -0000 S Moonesamy writes: > If the Working Group is against RFC 7320, it could submit a draft to > change it. I suggest considering the time it could take to get that > through the IETF process. I would also point interested parties to _Building Protocols with HTTP_ (draft-ietf-httpbis-bcp56bis-08 [1]), which covers very similar issues to those in 7320. When I pushed back on aspects of an earlier draft similar to those Rob Stradling is concerned by, I was unsuccessful. The rebuttal to my objections was grounded in the fact that this BCP is focussed on _specifications_. Specifications are (or ought to be) open to multiple implementations. Baking in _any_ aspect of URI syntax in a spec was held to amount to an unreasonable/unnecessary constraint on implementors. ht [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-bcp56bis-08 -- Henry S. Thompson, School of Informatics, University of Edinburgh 10 Crichton Street, Edinburgh EH8 9AB, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440 Fax: (44) 131 650-4587, e-mail: ht@inf.ed.ac.uk URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/ [mail from me _always_ has a .sig like this -- mail without it is forged spam] The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. From nobody Mon Jul 15 12:31:09 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2909212027B; Mon, 15 Jul 2019 12:31:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=packetizer.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1R8WmIVIelDB; Mon, 15 Jul 2019 12:31:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dublin.packetizer.com (dublin.packetizer.com [IPv6:2600:1f18:24d6:2e01:e842:9b2b:72a2:d2c6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E40341200F9; Mon, 15 Jul 2019 12:30:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from authuser (localhost [127.0.0.1]) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=packetizer.com; s=dublin; t=1563219056; bh=2tP9S1OgIKlzXC+phO0Gv2g+B++K4iVJ/CcnaAtNw90=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:Reply-To; b=bmZ5ZlujlZqvlIaWjz3ji4JfouRy3gr0S7IFa8fT2iHXbcadbN2DG9VV+VMTQ/kQl PVWCsXaFJQVaJLIa+OlvddL77Jxehi6YAyykJXXSDe7KA7ZFhnrq4mtyh/vITaIoww mSma1MpnvAmRk81zsKaVbYc0Z4lQJ9R027yPJnYM= From: "Paul E. Jones" To: "art@ietf.org" , "webfinger@ietf.org" Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2019 19:30:53 +0000 Message-Id: Reply-To: "Paul E. Jones" User-Agent: eM_Client/7.2.35595.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------=_MBE694187E-0E87-44E0-A852-6F7D14382D35" Archived-At: Subject: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2019 19:31:02 -0000 --------=_MBE694187E-0E87-44E0-A852-6F7D14382D35 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ART folks, Several years ago when I was working on WebFinger, one of the use cases=20 I presented was using WebFinger to facilitate auto-configuring email=20 clients. It was and still is a problem I deal with today. For my own family, I have to manually configure several different=20 clients on several different platforms for each member of the family. =20 It's time consuming and really needs to be made simpler. My wife also has to deal with this issue where she works, because her=20 company, while just 100 or so employees, has offices in two different=20 countries and the mail server settings an employee uses depends on his=20 or her geographic location. To use standard IETF protocols, it means a=20 lot of manual provisioning. I see the same sort of challenges with service providers. If one wants=20 to have his or her own domain, but isn't technically savvy, they're in=20 for a lot of "fun" trying to figure out the various settings. Seriously,=20 no normal person should have to understand what SMTP or IMAP means, and=20 definitely what port numbers or security settings to fill in. While there has been a generic DNS-based method for email provision for=20 a while, it doesn't work for me. It doesn't work for my wife's company,=20 either. It also doesn't define everything one might need to define=20 (e.g., required security settings or policies). So we put together a very simple example to show how this might be done=20 with WebFinger. See the draft here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-webfinger-email-autoconfig-00 The example in that document should make it clear how we intend this to=20 work, though the detailed procedures and syntax are missing. We first=20 want to see what interest exists and if this general approach will work=20 for everyone before getting into too much detail. We'd love to have some dialog on this to see how we can address this=20 problem of auto-configuring email clients. Paul --------=_MBE694187E-0E87-44E0-A852-6F7D14382D35 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ART folks,

Several years ago when I was working= on WebFinger, one of the use cases I presented was using WebFinger to facil= itate auto-configuring email clients. =C2=A0It was and still is a problem I = deal with today.

For my own family, I have to m= anually configure several different clients on several different platforms= for each member of the family. =C2=A0It's time consuming and really needs t= o be made simpler.

My wife also has to deal with = this issue where she works, because her company, while just 100 or so empl= oyees, has offices in two different countries and the mail server settings= an employee uses depends on his or her geographic location. =C2=A0To use st= andard IETF protocols, it means a lot of manual provisioning.

I see the same sort of challenges with service providers. If= one wants to have his or her own domain, but isn't technically savvy, they'= re in for a lot of "fun" trying to figure out the various settings. Serious= ly, no normal person should have to understand what SMTP or IMAP means, and = definitely what port numbers or security settings to fill in.
While there has been a generic DNS-based method for email pr= ovision for a while, it doesn't work for me. It doesn't work for my wife's= company, either. It also doesn't define everything one might need to define = (e.g., required security settings or policies).

So we put together a very simple example to show how this might be done wi= th WebFinger. =C2=A0See the draft here:

The example in that document should= make it clear how we intend this to work, though the detailed procedures an= d syntax are missing. =C2=A0We first want to see what interest exists and i= f this general approach will work for everyone before getting into too much = detail.

We'd love to have some dialog on this t= o see how we can address this problem of auto-configuring email clients.

Paul

--------=_MBE694187E-0E87-44E0-A852-6F7D14382D35-- From nobody Mon Jul 15 19:34:12 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B0E51200D5 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2019 19:34:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.75 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.75 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=o+HizedW; dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=bSK8SQzc Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ySmtr8qH5UJB for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2019 19:34:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5889A120025 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2019 19:34:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 1161 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2019 02:34:06 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=47b.5d2d379e.k1907; i=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=5sCQkngFiXpFeDolzHGwuCwVHsVEAbeWnxcOgYGWZtE=; b=o+HizedWEjfLWBGSvosGP1qGd9sf37GwGQzRr1iQ8XSRalhh9irNZJQk0MiZyXbalSzRbo3cmyNCEz7usOOfTNGCSs9lvwcC8obW5vWrRTn+eHfWeDZ8Asj/rfzRhOkT4zBe6oQ5HwzzCs4ZTb6fxgWhI6h2YUpOb1vi29UHwHyktMnZi9PeJx0S3iBOtil5eUriIYPrSrk3CK2hT56+67jF6QMeqzf+nh7NH3NMv037QAZqvJxxaLxamCl4M5gA DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=47b.5d2d379e.k1907; olt=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=5sCQkngFiXpFeDolzHGwuCwVHsVEAbeWnxcOgYGWZtE=; b=bSK8SQzcmxmFXwW8pao2iOQ1hxBy0+IvoiiGcUj6iCm0mALRx8FKRSGQjiz1MZDV61R5rnQZ580ZKZCtrt0Wu2SUKTGNl21fCUil1xz4JPxoeFXHaFiKDd7/WO0+d8OClawW2MWp4AsDTzQoMQVkCw61xEPxWLDqO56Rp9UY5h5O/V+MLTkay6Q/AgBwODKFn20UXd+/jE5O+PbOX2YsJ6g89Zj7TzPqIYYLoUdIfjR6n6yaPhV/HqFlO3+WbZSp Received: from ary.qy ([64.246.232.221]) by imap.iecc.com ([64.57.183.75]) with ESMTPSA (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD, johnl@iecc.com) via TCP; 16 Jul 2019 02:34:06 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 4F8AD4C3BE4; Mon, 15 Jul 2019 22:34:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: 15 Jul 2019 22:34:05 -0400 Message-Id: <20190716023406.4F8AD4C3BE4@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: art@ietf.org Cc: paulej@packetizer.com In-Reply-To: Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 02:34:11 -0000 In article you write: >We'd love to have some dialog on this to see how we can address this >problem of auto-configuring email clients. The Thunderbird MUA has has this kind of autoconfiguration for many years, with the MUA fetching an XML config file. I wouldn't say it's perfect but I would say it's widely deployed. See https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Thunderbird/Autoconfiguration https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird:Autoconfiguration:ConfigFileFormat From nobody Mon Jul 15 21:13:16 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D294C120188 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2019 21:13:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=packetizer.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9VxDHzuSgnwK for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2019 21:13:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dublin.packetizer.com (dublin.packetizer.com [IPv6:2600:1f18:24d6:2e01:e842:9b2b:72a2:d2c6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EFC9D12006F for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2019 21:13:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from authuser (localhost [127.0.0.1]) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=packetizer.com; s=dublin; t=1563250388; bh=FM2SWW/tVauua/D9kkzKNkAmpScW7sDvO2EI3BhtLqE=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References:Reply-To; b=tSgSShL/1a2fE/F34BRELuK19B13OcQiiZzr7yV2d7LAfz23NucVUrJo3iLR8RBVN kP5Vw5Ldji8kjKjKNYLUqgdKUF/8MDtY0dhHWWpIS+FlKrKcht1OGuvMiDpGSdU4Q3 vHfsBZPF8IFE9VYhPZcnEzKdhKoWy+G+UVlwREkQ= From: "Paul E. Jones" To: "John Levine" , art@ietf.org Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 04:13:03 +0000 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20190716023406.4F8AD4C3BE4@ary.qy> References: <20190716023406.4F8AD4C3BE4@ary.qy> Reply-To: "Paul E. Jones" User-Agent: eM_Client/7.2.35595.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------=_MBD076C677-052E-4129-B645-FD607BB7DF48" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 04:13:14 -0000 --------=_MBD076C677-052E-4129-B645-FD607BB7DF48 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John, I use primarily two different email clients, and neither support that=20 method. One does support Microsoft's method: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/Exchange/architecture/client-access/autodi= scover?view=3Dexchserver-2019 I have no strong preference for how we solve the problem, but I think we=20 need a standard for this. I also think we should take into=20 consideration the privacy concerns that were raised when I first talked=20 in context of WebFinger several years ago. Specifically, people wanted=20 a way to ensure access to the config file was protected. (I do not=20 recall now why people wanted to keep that private, but they did and were=20 insistent on it.) Paul ------ Original Message ------ From: "John Levine" To: art@ietf.org Cc: paulej@packetizer.com Sent: 7/15/2019 10:34:05 PM Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger >In article you write: >>We'd love to have some dialog on this to see how we can address this >>problem of auto-configuring email clients. > >The Thunderbird MUA has has this kind of autoconfiguration for many >years, with the MUA fetching an XML config file. I wouldn't say it's >perfect but I would say it's widely deployed. > >See > >https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Thunderbird/Autoconfigura= tion >https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird:Autoconfiguration:ConfigFileFormat > --------=_MBD076C677-052E-4129-B645-FD607BB7DF48 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
John,

I use primarily two differ= ent email clients, and neither support that method. =C2=A0One does support= Microsoft's method:

I have no strong= preference for how we solve the problem, but I think we need a standard for = this. =C2=A0I also think we should take into consideration the privacy con= cerns that were raised when I first talked in context of WebFinger several= years ago. =C2=A0Specifically, people wanted a way to ensure access to the= config file was protected. =C2=A0(I do not recall now why people wanted to= keep that private, but they did and were insistent on it.)

=
Paul

------ Original Message ------
From: "John Levine" <johnl@taugh.com>
To: art@ietf.org
Cc: paulej@packetizer.com
Sent: 7/15/2019 10:34:05 PM
Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger
<= div>
In article <eme8317959-26f9-4a9d-b2be-d2f8cb09= 61f6@sydney> you write:
We'd love to have some dialog on this to see how= we can address this
problem of auto-configuring email clients.
=C2=A0
The Thunderbird MUA has has this kind of autoconf= iguration for many
years, with the MUA fetching an XML config file. = I wouldn't say it's
perfect but I would say it's widely deployed.
=C2=A0
See
=C2=A0
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/= Thunderbird/Autoconfiguration
https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird:Autoconfigur= ation:ConfigFileFormat
=C2=A0
--------=_MBD076C677-052E-4129-B645-FD607BB7DF48-- From nobody Mon Jul 15 22:05:12 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CE38120073 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2019 22:05:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.751 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.751 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=sWgAPea2; dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=KBwf5JMc Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lCQCUNJpvwbP for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2019 22:05:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 82DF412006F for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2019 22:05:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 29890 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2019 05:05:07 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=74bf.5d2d5b03.k1907; i=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=vlVDn3+b9v3+3b/3l8zAPqR0AgpTxQUhjASUTaNG/aU=; b=sWgAPea2HCExCHW0tqxT100mf33P/DUI1Vg2XDKy5387DC0cKOKE+bDsK4R/69VOgDuT7DXL3LeQHfcVrKiQ7WsAlQIGLBe9vCIGiqwbAhrNNdH/eymHHO+CfqH3NUoEjiR0/qDebUmY5UnU5xJmLaBariFKJJ7sH/aLlWPSzcK2RWHue5++DpC2S4fzLfM/b7c3Q+/qaz071zc0JwdejbRxzOvpR5avUpy0J8GgCZJQRDG4rTejR/ihlZYqGaeI DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=74bf.5d2d5b03.k1907; olt=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=vlVDn3+b9v3+3b/3l8zAPqR0AgpTxQUhjASUTaNG/aU=; b=KBwf5JMc/WBw+YDBqUx1xbY0barxTq7Z8oXMR6EOjEmjLnIa5EKDl/LGMVyeAPqCHyuddWqHFI3tf3A03ckUJ2W0Uq0rFaG2B76IX2viNvofJ1sbRRsvAMVDvF0ZYAqj5YkUDnTaNyh2l9Wtj0W32figIaQ3QhijlHWzXxlOXJ5+wVGF3Oa5MPR6D6oiyd4E9fo2SnM3aOD7pcqYcSt40IBmmJebRL74wFrRacEMGbzt1j5G+JE12acHXWIB73hh Received: from ary.qy ([64.246.232.221]) by imap.iecc.com ([64.57.183.75]) with ESMTPSA (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD, johnl@iecc.com) via TCP; 16 Jul 2019 05:05:07 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id BA8894C5D36; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 01:05:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: 16 Jul 2019 01:05:06 -0400 Message-Id: <20190716050506.BA8894C5D36@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: art@ietf.org Cc: paulej@packetizer.com In-Reply-To: Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 05:05:10 -0000 In article you write: >I have no strong preference for how we solve the problem, but I think we >need a standard for this. I also think we should take into >consideration the privacy concerns that were raised when I first talked >in context of WebFinger several years ago. Specifically, people wanted >a way to ensure access to the config file was protected. (I do not >recall now why people wanted to keep that private, but they did and were >insistent on it.) Probably to make it harder to enumerate e-mail addresses. I don't have much sympathy for that argument, since bad guys already have more addresses to spam than they know what to do with, but it's not a big deal. More concretely, it seems to me that it would be better to make this a profile of the existing autoconfigure scheme, which some MUAs implement, rather than webfinger, which no MUAs implement. The Mozilla design (over-design, really) looks up the configuration for alice@example.com at https://example.com/.well-known/autoconfig/mail/config-v1.1.xml or https://autoconfig.example.com/mail/config-v1.1.xml?emailaddress=alice@example.com On the theory that web servers generally ignore GET parameters that they don't understand, we can look up https://example.com/.well-known/autoconfig/mail/config-v1.1.xml?emailaddress=alice@example.dom&password=swordfish and it returns Alice's mail setup, possibly ignoring the address and password and returning a common setup for all the mailboxes at example.com. The password makes it harder for people who aren't Alice to snoop on her mail setup. This doesn't give you the extra Personal/Business level of indirection, but I have no idea what it would mean to have two different mail configurations for the same e-mail address. I have personal and business mail addresses, but they're different addresses which I presumably know and configure either or both as needed. R's, John From nobody Mon Jul 15 22:23:03 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAB1D12006F for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2019 22:23:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fastmail.fm header.b=VcGy2TLa; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=n4efU3Tm Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FA-BQfLZTMKJ for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2019 22:22:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6ED3712004F for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2019 22:22:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59202520; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 01:22:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap7 ([10.202.2.57]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 16 Jul 2019 01:22:58 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fastmail.fm; h= mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to:cc :subject:content-type; s=fm3; bh=zPKf7OfDSHvMLxrPAKYsbXxoWEdvv4E LCyUU5N+kXes=; b=VcGy2TLaefbIqu6QtNTj+bLNsjpDg7V+1RM12yhJp/ir2zT XIJuPscBj/fkks+zM+J8GNeizs5DixdbzKKdkiBTZZdisv647nn/Iy+s5Mfocnbs YNrl8txl2lZh57mMSoKEv07qicNX6uIMHbHPBsSbJaHBPX2B61D+KGh/vcR2EuLo zv29aYp7GCIiwNfoWzPul28Lq9jk0wb8dNgXnspa54rirg16Y5l4qxtIWxPBfDol 2+Aj/Lbb0Hq3vFffOwvPNkMUsysDdL9J/WxAnny2oDZb+xAALdd9fDxXx40pOlwb w4w49YGYA0Fl3o/Pty2SmITZ3LeALZzJNmeqv+Q== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=zPKf7O fDSHvMLxrPAKYsbXxoWEdvv4ELCyUU5N+kXes=; b=n4efU3TmZDIKAwfEObnBgl ShhtJM/HMmNrkYxGmDtGr1SC5NaCskGv8QI83FSIhuhqhAF1GDESJV1SSagMQGSu +vpOYS8Aou9bOKtFpyoZ4s3+IZwjJ/5BSb//JFh4+yWY2jNL7gdFC7Aj99q+MEwr DAmZ66x3zEuF0rW9LhhwdKLdjUiF2dGimiO9cBnzS0SsSTFs+hnIbMrkLXj5YJWm sE0+9ZIvb3SZrLkFcrH0oed/s/6r52WahDOjTNP85EYxoySTRdA0wJY21PFJcG8s +Vf01Jso3u45ZnZh3pQL6BdtMGlxnsTIaDdRj2HijZIxOZALuz5ic81Mb+KGpwHg == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduvddrheelgdelfecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvufgtsegrtderreerredtnecuhfhrohhmpedfuehrohhn ucfiohhnugifrghnrgdfuceosghrohhnghesfhgrshhtmhgrihhlrdhfmheqnecuffhomh grihhnpehivghtfhdrohhrghenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepsghrohhnghes fhgrshhtmhgrihhlrdhfmhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id E980519D254; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 01:22:56 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.6-731-g19d3b16-fmstable-20190627v1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <1b042605-4b3a-40b7-a792-2390c924282f@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 15:22:56 +1000 From: "Bron Gondwana" To: "art@ietf.org" Cc: "Marten Gajda" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=98f0318b1232411da39a5427fd803a50 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 05:23:02 -0000 --98f0318b1232411da39a5427fd803a50 Content-Type: text/plain On Tue, Jul 16, 2019, at 05:31, Paul E. Jones wrote: > ART folks, > > Several years ago when I was working on WebFinger, one of the use cases I presented was using WebFinger to facilitate auto-configuring email clients. It was and still is a problem I deal with today. > > For my own family, I have to manually configure several different clients on several different platforms for each member of the family. It's time consuming and really needs to be made simpler. > > My wife also has to deal with this issue where she works, because her company, while just 100 or so employees, has offices in two different countries and the mail server settings an employee uses depends on his or her geographic location. To use standard IETF protocols, it means a lot of manual provisioning. > > I see the same sort of challenges with service providers. If one wants to have his or her own domain, but isn't technically savvy, they're in for a lot of "fun" trying to figure out the various settings. Seriously, no normal person should have to understand what SMTP or IMAP means, and definitely what port numbers or security settings to fill in. > > While there has been a generic DNS-based method for email provision for a while, it doesn't work for me. It doesn't work for my wife's company, either. It also doesn't define everything one might need to define (e.g., required security settings or policies). > > So we put together a very simple example to show how this might be done with WebFinger. See the draft here: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-webfinger-email-autoconfig-00 There's also been discussion about doing the same thing for caldav and carddav in CalConnect, which was led by Marten. It would be good to combine this work! Cheers, Bron. -- Bron Gondwana brong@fastmail.fm --98f0318b1232411da39a5427fd803a50 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Jul 16, 2019, at 05:31, Paul E. Jones wrote:<= br>
ART folks,

Several years ago when I = was working on WebFinger, one of the use cases I presented was using Web= Finger to facilitate auto-configuring email clients.  It was and st= ill is a problem I deal with today.

For my = own family, I have to manually configure several different clients on se= veral different platforms for each member of the family.  It's time= consuming and really needs to be made simpler.

=
My wife also has to deal with this issue where she works, because h= er company, while just 100 or so employees, has offices in two different= countries and the mail server settings an employee uses depends on his = or her geographic location.  To use standard IETF protocols, it mea= ns a lot of manual provisioning.

I see the = same sort of challenges with service providers. If one wants to have his= or her own domain, but isn't technically savvy, they're in for a lot of= "fun" trying to figure out the various settings. Seriously, no normal p= erson should have to understand what SMTP or IMAP means, and definitely = what port numbers or security settings to fill in.

While there has been a generic DNS-based method for email provis= ion for a while, it doesn't work for me. It doesn't work for my wife's c= ompany, either. It also doesn't define everything one might need to defi= ne (e.g., required security settings or policies).

So we put together a very simple example to show how this might = be done with WebFinger.  See the draft here:
<= br>
There's also been discussion about doing the same thing for caldav = and carddav in CalConnect, which was led by Marten. It would be good to = combine this work!

Cheers,

Bron.

-- 
  Bron Gondwana
  brong@= fastmail.fm


--98f0318b1232411da39a5427fd803a50-- From nobody Tue Jul 16 10:06:38 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 851D8120225 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 10:06:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=packetizer.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JOgcKijxiouT for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 10:06:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dublin.packetizer.com (dublin.packetizer.com [IPv6:2600:1f18:24d6:2e01:e842:9b2b:72a2:d2c6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5FDC31201AF for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 10:06:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from authuser (localhost [127.0.0.1]) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=packetizer.com; s=dublin; t=1563296791; bh=hSFBHCm/T8C6deDEEMyC8TE6q37BjAlb2rk+7QuArl4=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References:Reply-To; b=SvtV+GPGG65/Kcftu5oyJqP6SnPcBmxpGm7ClNlj5iCIZpLTOTCoFL1BMXJF+lBHR kL+fdTYDOhjITpNsOcDbSTBCx7ogW+X4jA7qqm3H6Wn8AImy+j7hF/do5jKFMzYrc5 em2zMUUNzE/Pkj+4zbkZlSHh9n0/RbbRETdQFsf8= From: "Paul E. Jones" To: "John Levine" , art@ietf.org Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 17:06:29 +0000 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20190716050506.BA8894C5D36@ary.qy> References: <20190716050506.BA8894C5D36@ary.qy> Reply-To: "Paul E. Jones" User-Agent: eM_Client/7.2.35595.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------=_MBA971499B-8670-48D9-B335-9E34ED0D1236" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 17:06:38 -0000 --------=_MBA971499B-8670-48D9-B335-9E34ED0D1236 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John, The scheme you show is very similar to the WebFinger proposal. =20 Essentially, the client queries a well-known address and is given a JSON=20 document inside of which is the URL of the config file. That config=20 could easily be put into the initial query, but folks did not want to do=20 that back then. I do have an old example of how to do that, though, but=20 it's not in this draft (since security concerns were expressed back=20 then). Another thing to consider is migration. When a service provider needs=20 to move a bunch of users from one server cluster to another, would it=20 make more sense to write configs into the customer's /autoconfig/=20 directories or update config files they maintain separately? Given the push-back I got about XML back then, too, it's probably best=20 this is in JSON format (though, again, I have no strong preference). I think a standard needs to exist so that client developers can adhere=20 to something and I think it's unfortunate all we have a vendor-specific=20 solutions. Do others agree? Or am I one of the few who has this frustration? I=20 suspect I'm not. :) Paul ------ Original Message ------ From: "John Levine" To: art@ietf.org Cc: paulej@packetizer.com Sent: 7/16/2019 1:05:06 AM Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger >In article you write: >>I have no strong preference for how we solve the problem, but I think we >>need a standard for this. I also think we should take into >>consideration the privacy concerns that were raised when I first talked >>in context of WebFinger several years ago. Specifically, people wanted >>a way to ensure access to the config file was protected. (I do not >>recall now why people wanted to keep that private, but they did and were >>insistent on it.) > >Probably to make it harder to enumerate e-mail addresses. I don't have mu= ch >sympathy for that argument, since bad guys already have more addresses to >spam than they know what to do with, but it's not a big deal. > >More concretely, it seems to me that it would be better to make this a >profile of the existing autoconfigure scheme, which some MUAs >implement, rather than webfinger, which no MUAs implement. > >The Mozilla design (over-design, really) looks up the configuration >for alice@example.com at >https://example.com/.well-known/autoconfig/mail/config-v1.1.xml or >https://autoconfig.example.com/mail/config-v1.1.xml?emailaddress=3Dalice@e= xample.com > >On the theory that web servers generally ignore GET parameters that they d= on't >understand, we can look up > >https://example.com/.well-known/autoconfig/mail/config-v1.1.xml?emailaddre= ss=3Dalice@example.dom&password=3Dswordfish > >and it returns Alice's mail setup, possibly ignoring the address and passw= ord and returning a common >setup for all the mailboxes at example.com. The password makes it harder= for people who aren't >Alice to snoop on her mail setup. > >This doesn't give you the extra Personal/Business level of >indirection, but I have no idea what it would mean to have two >different mail configurations for the same e-mail address. I have >personal and business mail addresses, but they're different addresses >which I presumably know and configure either or both as needed. > >R's, >John > --------=_MBA971499B-8670-48D9-B335-9E34ED0D1236 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
John,

The scheme you show is ver= y similar to the WebFinger proposal. =C2=A0Essentially, the client queries= a well-known address and is given a JSON document inside of which is the UR= L of the config file. =C2=A0That config could easily be put into the initia= l query, but folks did not want to do that back then. =C2=A0I do have an ol= d example of how to do that, though, but it's not in this draft (since secu= rity concerns were expressed back then).

Another = thing to consider is migration. =C2=A0When a service provider needs to mov= e a bunch of users from one server cluster to another, would it make more s= ense to write configs into the customer's /autoconfig/ directories or updat= e config files they maintain separately?

Given t= he push-back I got about XML back then, too, it's probably best this is in= JSON format (though, again, I have no strong preference).

<= /div>
I think a standard needs to exist so that client developers can a= dhere to something and I think it's unfortunate all we have a vendor-specif= ic solutions.

Do others agree? =C2=A0Or am I one = of the few who has this frustration? =C2=A0I suspect I'm not. :)

Paul

------ Original Message ------
From: "John Levine" <johnl@taugh.com>
To: art@ietf.org
Cc: paulej@packetizer.com
Sent: 7/16/2019 1:05:06 AM
Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger
<= div>
In article <em20c214d4-507e-4859-99fc-460e3919= ac55@sydney> you write:
I have no strong preference for how we solve the= problem, but I think we
need a standard for this. I also think we should = take into
consideration the privacy concerns that were rais= ed when I first talked
in context of WebFinger several years ago. Speci= fically, people wanted
a way to ensure access to the config file was pro= tected. (I do not
recall now why people wanted to keep that private= , but they did and were
insistent on it.)
=C2=A0
Probably to make it harder to enumerate e-mail ad= dresses. I don't have much
sympathy for that argument, since bad guys alread= y have more addresses to
spam than they know what to do with, but it's not = a big deal.
=C2=A0
More concretely, it seems to me that it would be= better to make this a
profile of the existing autoconfigure scheme, whi= ch some MUAs
implement, rather than webfinger, which no MUAs i= mplement.
=C2=A0
The Mozilla design (over-design, really) looks up = the configuration
for alice@example.com at
https://example.com/.well-known/autoconfig/mail/c= onfig-v1.1.xml or
https://autoconfig.example.com/mail/config-v1.1.x= ml?emailaddress=3Dalice@example.com
=C2=A0
On the theory that web servers generally ignore G= ET parameters that they don't
understand, we can look up
=C2=A0
https://example.com/.well-known/autoconfig/mail/c= onfig-v1.1.xml?emailaddress=3Dalice@example.dom&password=3Dswordfish
=C2=A0
and it returns Alice's mail setup, possibly ignor= ing the address and password and returning a common
setup for all the mailboxes at example.com. The= password makes it harder for people who aren't
Alice to snoop on her mail setup.
=C2=A0
This doesn't give you the extra Personal/Business = level of
indirection, but I have no idea what it would mea= n to have two
different mail configurations for the same e-mail = address. I have
personal and business mail addresses, but they're = different addresses
which I presumably know and configure either or b= oth as needed.
=C2=A0
R's,
John
=C2=A0
--------=_MBA971499B-8670-48D9-B335-9E34ED0D1236-- From nobody Tue Jul 16 10:32:12 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DE15120A90 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 10:32:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=packetizer.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WE9VithWAn4p for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 10:32:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dublin.packetizer.com (dublin.packetizer.com [IPv6:2600:1f18:24d6:2e01:e842:9b2b:72a2:d2c6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E2D54120112 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 10:32:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from authuser (localhost [127.0.0.1]) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=packetizer.com; s=dublin; t=1563298319; bh=G52OJ77QZAP8nrMvfW21z4dNsKHRjh0Iy85Zehactvw=; h=From:To:Subject:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:References:Reply-To; b=plkG8yy0ILqgYvEKHG+QI1+mJXc5p0V9wSY0VIB3JTBCH3QzOu9uJUUrtOgiVWW1R OiQeKui/WPEljX/nkqrkqGIQX9wqkh0W5knrkW26EjttbKopsmcZNWj4w5IVtfOLsl H+9sTvUftFHoHksOOrcgetYeGEQaEofaxJiTALw0= From: "Paul E. Jones" To: "Bron Gondwana" , "art@ietf.org" Cc: "Marten Gajda" Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 17:31:57 +0000 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1b042605-4b3a-40b7-a792-2390c924282f@www.fastmail.com> References: <1b042605-4b3a-40b7-a792-2390c924282f@www.fastmail.com> Reply-To: "Paul E. Jones" User-Agent: eM_Client/7.2.35595.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------=_MB837D8564-E959-4B3C-9601-CBB5EB427DFB" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 17:32:11 -0000 --------=_MB837D8564-E959-4B3C-9601-CBB5EB427DFB Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Agreed. These things should all be automated. ------ Original Message ------ From: "Bron Gondwana" To: "art@ietf.org" Cc: "Marten Gajda" Sent: 7/16/2019 1:22:56 AM Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger >On Tue, Jul 16, 2019, at 05:31, Paul E. Jones wrote: >>ART folks, >> >>Several years ago when I was working on WebFinger, one of the use=20 >>cases I presented was using WebFinger to facilitate auto-configuring=20 >>email clients. It was and still is a problem I deal with today. >> >>For my own family, I have to manually configure several different=20 >>clients on several different platforms for each member of the family. =20 >>It's time consuming and really needs to be made simpler. >> >>My wife also has to deal with this issue where she works, because her=20 >>company, while just 100 or so employees, has offices in two different=20 >>countries and the mail server settings an employee uses depends on his=20 >>or her geographic location. To use standard IETF protocols, it means=20 >>a lot of manual provisioning. >> >>I see the same sort of challenges with service providers. If one wants=20 >>to have his or her own domain, but isn't technically savvy, they're in=20 >>for a lot of "fun" trying to figure out the various settings.=20 >>Seriously, no normal person should have to understand what SMTP or=20 >>IMAP means, and definitely what port numbers or security settings to=20 >>fill in. >> >>While there has been a generic DNS-based method for email provision=20 >>for a while, it doesn't work for me. It doesn't work for my wife's=20 >>company, either. It also doesn't define everything one might need to=20 >>define (e.g., required security settings or policies). >> >>So we put together a very simple example to show how this might be=20 >>done with WebFinger. See the draft here: >>https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-webfinger-email-autoconfig-00 > >There's also been discussion about doing the same thing for caldav and=20 >carddav in CalConnect, which was led by Marten. It would be good to=20 >combine this work! > >Cheers, > >Bron. > >-- > Bron Gondwana > brong@fastmail.fm > > --------=_MB837D8564-E959-4B3C-9601-CBB5EB427DFB Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
= Agreed. =C2=A0These things should all be automated.

------ Original Message ------
From: "Bron Gondwana" <brong@f= astmail.fm>
To: "art@ietf.org" <art@ietf.org>
Sent: 7/16/2019 1:22:56 AM
Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger
<= div>
On Tue, Jul 16, 2019, at 05:31, Paul E. J= ones wrote:
<= div style=3D"font-family:Arial;">ART folks,

Several years ago when I was working on WebFinger, one of the use cases I = presented was using WebFinger to facilitate auto-configuring email clients= . =C2=A0It was and still is a problem I deal with today.
For my own family, I have to manually configure several diff= erent clients on several different platforms for each member of the family. = =C2=A0It's time consuming and really needs to be made simpler.
=

My wife also has to deal with this issue where she wo= rks, because her company, while just 100 or so employees, has offices in tw= o different countries and the mail server settings an employee uses depends = on his or her geographic location. =C2=A0To use standard IETF protocols, i= t means a lot of manual provisioning.

I se= e the same sort of challenges with service providers. If one wants to have= his or her own domain, but isn't technically savvy, they're in for a lot of = "fun" trying to figure out the various settings. Seriously, no normal pers= on should have to understand what SMTP or IMAP means, and definitely what p= ort numbers or security settings to fill in.

While there has been a generic DNS-based method for email provision for= a while, it doesn't work for me. It doesn't work for my wife's company, eit= her. It also doesn't define everything one might need to define (e.g., requ= ired security settings or policies).

So we = put together a very simple example to show how this might be done with Web= Finger. =C2=A0See the draft here:

There's also been di= scussion about doing the same thing for caldav and carddav in CalConnect, w= hich was led by Marten. It would be good to combine this work!
<= div style=3D"font-family:Arial;">

Cheers,

Bron.

--=C2=A0
=C2=A0 Bron Gondwana
=C2=A0 bro= ng@fastmail.fm


--------=_MB837D8564-E959-4B3C-9601-CBB5EB427DFB-- From nobody Tue Jul 16 10:46:09 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4D6E120B8F for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 10:46:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MpHfAW6iTooe for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 10:46:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x433.google.com (mail-pf1-x433.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::433]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4439F120135 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 10:46:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x433.google.com with SMTP id g2so9471942pfq.0 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 10:46:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=7G2DHJpUEmqyM/HT6TubS+Z3DintMRRo42Z2TlBvsqo=; b=eEJa8bMzk52VPcULSqwwQXV1OHRhi2b/TJ5iCsM3MiQIfn//muToy/bPcECoXmdDyS dXTl/HkXizcaLcp1RmFz6i7zJ2mk8MPtc7ViC1txy9HwdJZuZ5/8jcW23oHw0gf/br4l qH/0JMM54S23bqCUs2y/r+rLAolBoCx5LMXX76K7vYkJI4BzeJbmsj+ogebRA58i/3Gs 5RqtTefWbDboM2sddJvG/IajH02w6YDoXFaK67aZ5zBxegjk+eTfxFabei+zDeD8HzCX tf1ho3NGBTIfj3qfkPdQFn6JkHoI2S5xbIMJr0A5aR0LPzCYSvecNMeVfzDywP3VwWYn /bpQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=7G2DHJpUEmqyM/HT6TubS+Z3DintMRRo42Z2TlBvsqo=; b=iBzgn8SPJL3aV/SMYYYv4rWEG8SuDdoFpBeX4Mjf0Jntcl7eN3G4GNh0jWkqpbocS3 nPcU3706jGlC0YCi7RChsVijTb0zb/XfTpGWaufxLkCP75kTNyKxAe3HkbYHabLl2b9u fbDdXEpVghHtV/JmVMAh0sq8JxYP94BZgiwGPL9aN1rgZwHnqx2FsnePWlZ9dyvvwmWS K8jCu5hckDFC02zL/dHnudR/H4Ovv92yMhETQzGF7wKdTG73K5g/3paEPJMxeblgV9oq r6TF3OjiPvK+LJODyk8LUCmkILyO6zyEVz+cBRmugFIA5yjinNRqGWP1UHzW2XXGFNst uE0g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX+EuXCi7syVXJuDxpsiP1+UEVdS6ZsVK2HOw0VMBKY/b+6oNpE ioiLIy1YKJavdod/3N9r/Wk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy0RVqJs242TPsx+CPaa3S3jjdFvsY5W9wWoC9M3mBHVC5k836q1E3NlyA9PXZ4baI+h/SWIg== X-Received: by 2002:a63:7455:: with SMTP id e21mr29997216pgn.439.1563299159585; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 10:45:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.150.23.119] (c-67-169-101-78.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [67.169.101.78]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j19sm21952020pgn.19.2019.07.16.10.45.58 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 16 Jul 2019 10:45:58 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-98489176-7979-4884-A59A-A73F82B32516 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Larry Masinter X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16F203) In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 10:45:56 -0700 Cc: "art@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <7D0473AF-20BA-42AC-806B-EC1DE7610BEF@gmail.com> References: <1b042605-4b3a-40b7-a792-2390c924282f@www.fastmail.com> To: "Paul E. Jones" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 17:46:08 -0000 --Apple-Mail-98489176-7979-4884-A59A-A73F82B32516 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Putting passwords in cleartext in the request uri is ill advised because m= any servers keep logs of requests, caches, etc --Apple-Mail-98489176-7979-4884-A59A-A73F82B32516 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Putting passwords in cleartext in the request uri is ill advised because many servers keep logs of requests, caches, etc

--Apple-Mail-98489176-7979-4884-A59A-A73F82B32516-- From nobody Tue Jul 16 12:31:41 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A811D120114 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 12:31:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=O4kqLEh2; dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=Uid8zWVu Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XQEWV8JjzdwG for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 12:31:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2A50512006A for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 12:31:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 80014 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2019 19:31:35 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; s=1388c.5d2e2617.k1907; i=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=cVru8YqbiZGv6bcZzhf/lQlRH4zAcc8Mvm6ynhOyyzs=; b=O4kqLEh2GsTajXAJ7tY4rEXwNXwisk3ikSDZtM6/QMhUeUcmsKlenHNraFrAh03mnRz8qCGjF+1zV0lY9vFmgU7LiZE17UD7MWWiEI34GcrIBdGn2rnaWhcguFQWopvZDt2nmBQ51iKNxHf4RmJ3iXtgjmIS3BJIhkNvymCKXglf0DFZj1apvYEr4OXf8SIXRqIaKuituyGodrNsoR3H4IXyquM8Iyw9mwVS2WNaVkrlWzxIP4OmoPiOnEQG/+rw DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; s=1388c.5d2e2617.k1907; olt=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=cVru8YqbiZGv6bcZzhf/lQlRH4zAcc8Mvm6ynhOyyzs=; b=Uid8zWVu1N0u96R+hIyyKGwXXxQD72EpvL1NKQBjWpm1Xv1bQeLcvpeuPhyIxAmyoMESzKPD6tNT3KFAzHqjQkB7UPgnG44sX+LawsdNfGrWVj/KXWxR7ywk95Rqv5Ff4hUq5ruG4IqgNbWgTmMp0SKNYtNVwe07cCMDtk/zZv2RW32edVhFdLDZB5cYexxVHSMwBIfzl9w19qLhBZw8orSqpmCJWIxBHJihK9yzKXP4OEVrv26xoy7ZqyBoURmp Received: from localhost ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPSA (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD, johnl@iecc.com) via TCP6; 16 Jul 2019 19:31:35 -0000 Date: 16 Jul 2019 15:31:34 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R Levine" To: "Paul E. Jones" Cc: "John Levine" , art@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <20190716050506.BA8894C5D36@ary.qy> User-Agent: Alpine 2.21.9999 (OSX 337 2019-05-05) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 19:31:40 -0000 > The scheme you show is very similar to the WebFinger proposal. Yes, I realize that. But my point is that the scheme I show actually exists, whereas webfinger in MUAs does not. > Another thing to consider is migration. When a service provider needs to > move a bunch of users from one server cluster to another, would it make more > sense to write configs into the customer's /autoconfig/ directories or update > config files they maintain separately? Neither, I'd say. Any provider big enough for that to be a problem should be able to generate the config files on the fly from their main database as requested. I presume you know that slashes in a URL need not have any connection to a file system on a server. > Given the push-back I got about XML back then, too, it's probably best this > is in JSON format (though, again, I have no strong preference). I don't care either, except that the MUA code that exists now uses XML. R's, John >> More concretely, it seems to me that it would be better to make this a >> profile of the existing autoconfigure scheme, which some MUAs >> implement, rather than webfinger, which no MUAs implement. >> >> The Mozilla design (over-design, really) looks up the configuration >> for alice@example.com at >> https://example.com/.well-known/autoconfig/mail/config-v1.1.xml or >> https://autoconfig.example.com/mail/config-v1.1.xml?emailaddress=alice@example.com >> >> On the theory that web servers generally ignore GET parameters that they >> don't understand, we can look up >> >> https://example.com/.well-known/autoconfig/mail/config-v1.1.xml?emailaddress=alice@example.dom&password=swordfish >> >> and it returns Alice's mail setup, possibly ignoring the address and >> password and returning a common >> setup for all the mailboxes at example.com. The password makes it harder >> for people who aren't >> Alice to snoop on her mail setup. >> >> This doesn't give you the extra Personal/Business level of >> indirection, but I have no idea what it would mean to have two >> different mail configurations for the same e-mail address. I have >> personal and business mail addresses, but they're different addresses >> which I presumably know and configure either or both as needed. From nobody Tue Jul 16 12:46:58 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2FEA120623 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 12:46:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gulbrandsen.priv.no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DFelvCkppf8B for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 12:46:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stabil.gulbrandsen.priv.no (stabil.gulbrandsen.priv.no [IPv6:2a01:4f8:191:91a8::3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B5591120610 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 12:46:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stabil.gulbrandsen.priv.no (stabil.gulbrandsen.priv.no [IPv6:2a01:4f8:191:91a8::3]) by stabil.gulbrandsen.priv.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60FD8C008D; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 20:49:40 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gulbrandsen.priv.no; s=mail; t=1563306580; bh=Oa6zXDsz0QefnyXtK6SQYNnYbKBkg1dNK7XUu6T9QDk=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=QlEN7Xcux5SwqI93lvbEg5xQCezM55Vvj/75E2E4+l4NH8sPc1w5hRtjshmdfRKC6 AdMsuWEFACrxV01gViTUwZZDYkh+XkehnzN/xQ/p0Q39xFvAyHWR/K/7Uz1G1RNSGr RyHAdQLBo5K2j/mO/o0aRImHDsZf7bDYVqFrPu7w= Received: from arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no by stabil.gulbrandsen.priv.no (Archiveopteryx 3.2.0) with esmtpsa id 1563306579-18748-18745/9/13; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 19:49:39 +0000 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: art@ietf.org Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 21:46:42 +0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <5a9cbe8d-2005-4cbb-9f23-87fda1898125@gulbrandsen.priv.no> In-Reply-To: References: <20190716050506.BA8894C5D36@ary.qy> User-Agent: Trojita/0.7; Qt/5.7.1; xcb; Linux; Devuan GNU/Linux 2.0 (ascii) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 19:46:56 -0000 John Levine: > Yes, I realize that. But my point is that the scheme I show > actually exists, whereas webfinger in MUAs does not. And it has a little over ten years of deployment history, so it works for quite a lot of users now. Anything that's functionally similar but not compatible (from the viewpoint of domain owners) will have to work hard to gain that deployment. Arnt From nobody Tue Jul 16 12:47:07 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46DA0120133 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 12:46:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=packetizer.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H_6NXyRB11Ks for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 12:46:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dublin.packetizer.com (dublin.packetizer.com [IPv6:2600:1f18:24d6:2e01:e842:9b2b:72a2:d2c6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 81D2A120602 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 12:46:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from authuser (localhost [127.0.0.1]) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=packetizer.com; s=dublin; t=1563306412; bh=jJRaNMZln9BelrQoFascml9UBe5hACmGt+GQ7j3Yd2Y=; h=From:To:Subject:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:References:Reply-To; b=g3uYY/qmYGRXXBEtIy6ZchR1LQESIxj4CoJcdUS2wPFrlXPtKJJwp5Hku4dLMiFWp lPhzrfDahtTHIa7fuJbWlABJVbCYMpaCRHDOIsvPJuSemIfmDHLbp5jZP79zImeIR2 laxPzl/XIW7uxjBq6NOB22SXhFEnsJ/JjE2DzC54= From: "Paul E. Jones" To: "John R Levine" Cc: "John Levine" , art@ietf.org Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 19:46:50 +0000 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <20190716050506.BA8894C5D36@ary.qy> Reply-To: "Paul E. Jones" User-Agent: eM_Client/7.2.35595.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------=_MB0D26A932-1B23-4FA5-9523-54C19F70DBD4" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 19:46:57 -0000 --------=_MB0D26A932-1B23-4FA5-9523-54C19F70DBD4 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John, Other than Thunderbird, what clients support Mozilla's procedures? I really don't care about any existing proprietary solutions out there,=20 as they're clearly doing me no good at all. I'd prefer we define something simple that people will adopt. WebFinger=20 is just an HTTP query, but if we wanted to have a different HTTP query,=20 that's fine. I just think we need to document something in an RFC, else=20 nothing will ever get universally adopted. Paul ------ Original Message ------ From: "John R Levine" To: "Paul E. Jones" Cc: "John Levine" ; art@ietf.org Sent: 7/16/2019 3:31:34 PM Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger >>The scheme you show is very similar to the WebFinger proposal. > >Yes, I realize that. But my point is that the scheme I show actually exis= ts, whereas webfinger in MUAs does not. > >>Another thing to consider is migration. When a service provider needs to = move a bunch of users from one server cluster to another, would it make mo= re sense to write configs into the customer's /autoconfig/ directories or u= pdate config files they maintain separately? > >Neither, I'd say. Any provider big enough for that to be a problem should = be able to generate the config files on the fly from their main database a= s requested. I presume you know that slashes in a URL need not have any co= nnection to a file system on a server. > >>Given the push-back I got about XML back then, too, it's probably best th= is is in JSON format (though, again, I have no strong preference). > >I don't care either, except that the MUA code that exists now uses XML. > >R's, >John > >>>More concretely, it seems to me that it would be better to make this a >>>profile of the existing autoconfigure scheme, which some MUAs >>>implement, rather than webfinger, which no MUAs implement. >>> >>>The Mozilla design (over-design, really) looks up the configuration >>>for alice@example.com at >>>https://example.com/.well-known/autoconfig/mail/config-v1.1.xml or >>>https://autoconfig.example.com/mail/config-v1.1.xml?emailaddress=3Dalice= @example.com >>> >>>On the theory that web servers generally ignore GET parameters that they = don't understand, we can look up >>> >>>https://example.com/.well-known/autoconfig/mail/config-v1.1.xml?emailadd= ress=3Dalice@example.dom&password=3Dswordfish >>> >>>and it returns Alice's mail setup, possibly ignoring the address and pas= sword and returning a common >>>setup for all the mailboxes at example.com. The password makes it harde= r for people who aren't >>>Alice to snoop on her mail setup. >>> >>>This doesn't give you the extra Personal/Business level of >>>indirection, but I have no idea what it would mean to have two >>>different mail configurations for the same e-mail address. I have >>>personal and business mail addresses, but they're different addresses >>>which I presumably know and configure either or both as needed. --------=_MB0D26A932-1B23-4FA5-9523-54C19F70DBD4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
John,

Other than Thunderbird, wh= at clients support Mozilla's procedures?

I reall= y don't care about any existing proprietary solutions out there, as they're = clearly doing me no good at all.

I'd prefer we= define something simple that people will adopt. =C2=A0WebFinger is just an= HTTP query, but if we wanted to have a different HTTP query, that's fine. = =C2=A0I just think we need to document something in an RFC, else nothing w= ill ever get universally adopted.

Paul

------ Original Message ------
From: "John R Levine" <johnl@taugh.com>
To: "Paul E. Jones" <paulej@packetizer.com>
Cc: "John Levine" <johnl@taugh.com>; art@ietf.org
Sent: 7/16/2019 3:31:34 PM
Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger
<= div>
The scheme you show is very similar to the WebFin= ger proposal.
=C2=A0
Yes, I realize that. But my point is that the sc= heme I show actually exists, whereas webfinger in MUAs does not.
=C2=A0
Another thing to consider is migration. When a s= ervice provider needs to move a bunch of users from one server cluster to a= nother, would it make more sense to write configs into the customer's /auto= config/ directories or update config files they maintain separately?
=C2=A0
Neither, I'd say. Any provider big enough for th= at to be a problem should be able to generate the config files on the fly f= rom their main database as requested. I presume you know that slashes in a = URL need not have any connection to a file system on a server.
=C2=A0
Given the push-back I got about XML back then, to= o, it's probably best this is in JSON format (though, again, I have no stro= ng preference).
=C2=A0
I don't care either, except that the MUA code tha= t exists now uses XML.
=C2=A0
R's,
John
=C2=A0
More concretely, it seems to me that it would be= better to make this a
profile of the existing autoconfigure scheme, whi= ch some MUAs
implement, rather than webfinger, which no MUAs i= mplement.
=C2=A0
The Mozilla design (over-design, really) looks up = the configuration
for alice@example.com at
https://example.com/.well-known/autoconfig/mail/c= onfig-v1.1.xml or
https://autoconfig.example.com/mail/config-v1.1.x= ml?emailaddress=3Dalice@example.com
=C2=A0
On the theory that web servers generally ignore G= ET parameters that they don't understand, we can look up
=C2=A0
https://example.com/.well-known/autoconfig/mail/c= onfig-v1.1.xml?emailaddress=3Dalice@example.dom&password=3Dswordfish
=C2=A0
and it returns Alice's mail setup, possibly ignor= ing the address and password and returning a common
setup for all the mailboxes at example.com. The= password makes it harder for people who aren't
Alice to snoop on her mail setup.
=C2=A0
This doesn't give you the extra Personal/Business = level of
indirection, but I have no idea what it would mea= n to have two
different mail configurations for the same e-mail = address. I have
personal and business mail addresses, but they're = different addresses
which I presumably know and configure either or b= oth as needed.
--------=_MB0D26A932-1B23-4FA5-9523-54C19F70DBD4-- From nobody Tue Jul 16 12:56:41 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7037B12004C for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 12:56:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=IH5O8Rz8; dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=ZZskywcC Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a33c0FqV3I40 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 12:56:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 68B4C120041 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 12:56:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 84459 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2019 19:56:36 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; s=149e9.5d2e2bf4.k1907; i=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=E43Wefi10408VpyKjmUPRUMP6B5N00126crhaUOsFis=; b=IH5O8Rz8sdiLC0FaHfgquPMVz7pHfimIYLlY/4RDp4hFrN8QqMnBG/eLVGEX8+zU83NZMdSaexYpfdb13+QbUwJJxnBXOgoSuIFC9f97KbPlT9u7s1pT5RKmPBIvqqp7jRf1SAx1ompQJGVJRQbQdFaIf+qSWkS1E0K07mxq3E9OFweb9ZTZjIpSqWYgMzMBQ1aK6oPEVQGE8PSAdx0oT4t7f4KlKKd41rmZGd0O6frhitcD7HUIuOiZSnQI1i0A DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; s=149e9.5d2e2bf4.k1907; olt=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=E43Wefi10408VpyKjmUPRUMP6B5N00126crhaUOsFis=; b=ZZskywcCOXBeRI9bxiT2rgk7GHT048qKcjspfF+qKW+oI9/Lq0Ag85ebfMxVGbHTFKmtmpgU2zhzJEnwn/0qypeGaLtUpvxlX4AQEaUhm02ylBKv6DYf1mTP6Nt5Kykf6p7pnIsDX0pjmOPfdCXlljST08JKpiQslz9WSNNHagLApATP5+f673VXh6uUgCrDGG1RbxLDopQO3Eia5WTkFDAmKmsY5E6gmty4PXUmzZtGYCAlnnAJznEXUuHNMmx1 Received: from localhost ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPSA (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD, johnl@iecc.com) via TCP6; 16 Jul 2019 19:56:36 -0000 Date: 16 Jul 2019 15:56:35 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R Levine" To: "Paul E. Jones" Cc: art@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <20190716050506.BA8894C5D36@ary.qy> User-Agent: Alpine 2.21.9999 (OSX 337 2019-05-05) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 19:56:41 -0000 > Other than Thunderbird, what clients support Mozilla's procedures? I don't know. But it exists, it works, and it is available to the public. > I really don't care about any existing proprietary solutions out there, as > they're clearly doing me no good at all. For one thing, Thunderbird is MPL licensed open source, so the design and the code that implements it are available to anyone who wants to use them. This is an odd definition of "proprietary." Also, "It doesn't work in my MUA" is not much of an argument. It's unlikely that my MUA (alpine) will implement whatever webfinger thing you propose so by that arguement we're all wasting our time. > I'd prefer we define something simple that people will adopt. Not to repeat myself, but the Mozilla thing exists, is implemented in at least one fairly popular MUA, and has code available. I suppose I could talk to people at Microsoft and Google and see if they'd be interested if we came up with something. What's your plan? Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From nobody Tue Jul 16 15:05:24 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DA52120132 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 15:05:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.751 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.751 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=I4nyoM0L; dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=UzBgVmgb Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KRKKJK4t6XVP for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 15:05:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 80A0112012C for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 15:05:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 16423 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2019 22:05:20 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=4025.5d2e4a20.k1907; i=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=D7r+Dawexz8nDj7RIYaBkb6alroHR/6UCxcitjTj5FE=; b=I4nyoM0LrmQFrv1ImxEE/5ToN8HcbzUPLqSPlzWPT9UoLq0LE3KYYWOggh593AWwwH9X4lO4cNZsiLMZRSSxl5YyfROu9XK6irLfU+VUZhtotXyucF7OY7O1AfdHv8nBKfRKT8jk41yRzrt7XgbyAmDQfSEdrK2D15mQOe7tPOgEYHuNs+xkEkYvKHtQAzNdIkTXh0gHzyGdZklzA8PUbnEZUgV53mYiOLta7lfOQzLjPdZUi97sUZRrV09+5VYw DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=4025.5d2e4a20.k1907; olt=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=D7r+Dawexz8nDj7RIYaBkb6alroHR/6UCxcitjTj5FE=; b=UzBgVmgbNbTNwC1U7p5rzehPYUGJTds9ru19RVzjU6J035HLC2AcISmq4zzHQoDPuEcasRiTYe7QWntfBO2FAOgnmbyoReZGSM0/A4BssXCsXH2HEbsr7q8IMfGxkdsQ0W738aLHlWnp7hsrtlFUNRI4Fuztq3zoGUCLbJBjVBp1bfmt/lNYIgquc1B/lRj1fWxaSu9I1eCD3HoSVWhy+zf+duvIXnpySxD/VDu3jgcLGiAcxrqdYXqZmCaYozyA Received: from ary.qy ([64.246.232.221]) by imap.iecc.com ([64.57.183.75]) with ESMTPSA (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD, johnl@iecc.com) via TCP; 16 Jul 2019 22:05:20 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id A420450758F; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 18:05:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: 16 Jul 2019 18:05:19 -0400 Message-Id: <20190716220519.A420450758F@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: art@ietf.org Cc: masinter@gmail.com In-Reply-To: <7D0473AF-20BA-42AC-806B-EC1DE7610BEF@gmail.com> Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 22:05:23 -0000 In article <7D0473AF-20BA-42AC-806B-EC1DE7610BEF@gmail.com> you write: >-=-=-=-=-=- > >> Putting passwords in cleartext in the request uri is ill advised because many servers keep logs of requests, caches, etc Good point. Plan A: if the server needs the user name and password, it sends back a 401 response and the MUA sends them via RFC 7617 basic authentication. That seems largely backward compatible and invents a minimum of new stuff. Plan B: do it as a POST like most web password entries. I realize this has backward compatibility issues with the current GET. From nobody Tue Jul 16 20:00:33 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E35212013E for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 20:00:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=bzfx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 74FLX5D3jWgi for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 20:00:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x429.google.com (mail-pf1-x429.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::429]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A6DA9120131 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 20:00:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x429.google.com with SMTP id p184so10069218pfp.7 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 20:00:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bzfx.net; s=google; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=gs4pflLi3bmJzEUrtfqCE+X48vO8YihWO01KnxO71v8=; b=a+iQ4RKlfvHaHiaJHsGirt20tGql0ie+kE7hFDcRChJMWMAY2OQrhYANfBs49KSa5d NIBBSJwbuoDNj6rtF2XTwPHWHusBoLzS7T3FxQ1LDoiqRCtkQvP9PbtsE5IQWcQ/wZvH kOmb8vbD3vaOfKjK8jGXPUOAFjDBqgZN4wkk0= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=gs4pflLi3bmJzEUrtfqCE+X48vO8YihWO01KnxO71v8=; b=rmddYm7mThdVypux/sNhYzje2YFnQVWIUH4h0FLOFDXTmOhufhJhwJzH6j8ZeiUo2Y JH19K+dqBFANeyWBnZHZpL/Cx/a2GedY2QHbC/aQm/PwcbT1xV5joRTM7zDbkeyLC3p5 i1Va3TGbcLgtfTnj7ru4oKAoFo+s5uFK5rlpic94fcTW/yXK2AkRoHfmwkyS97CNMGes PzPKA/8w94LZgvQhcqXhBWNYrd496sjwdeFf7iWSv0UsbfdFS++YTAqGLnF8T+5YiQVq TriaG2yhblSjyo0mLPz4y+ZdMbMUoxX+ZouWI/GWMVSWfnUlBCZa3IGB6GhG2L5aXGrC yDNg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVUAnVEBX1hl33FBLfAMjfnx63L0RGI0TOAKZg0LNNFOjZI/1SD 07B8Wnq3TDIeRZ09Bwo2xyY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwAWC34CZmJSxsAUJD2Zxv3FIoQpgKomHje65WqQlp09AAxwyfDz92qnW3ZYBVjdUZ74TXdzw== X-Received: by 2002:a63:7d49:: with SMTP id m9mr26969265pgn.161.1563332428764; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 20:00:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.13] (184-98-251-21.phnx.qwest.net. [184.98.251.21]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 196sm24471191pfy.167.2019.07.16.20.00.27 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 16 Jul 2019 20:00:27 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Austin Wright In-Reply-To: <20190716220519.A420450758F@ary.qy> Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 20:00:25 -0700 Cc: art@ietf.org, masinter@gmail.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3A04338D-CE01-4693-92AF-4AE5CB70A68F@bzfx.net> References: <20190716220519.A420450758F@ary.qy> To: John Levine X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 03:00:32 -0000 > On Jul 16, 2019, at 15:05, John Levine wrote: >=20 > In article <7D0473AF-20BA-42AC-806B-EC1DE7610BEF@gmail.com> you write: >> -=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D- >>=20 >>> Putting passwords in cleartext in the request uri is ill advised = because many servers keep logs of requests, caches, etc >=20 > Good point. >=20 > Plan A: if the server needs the user name and password, it sends back > a 401 response and the MUA sends them via RFC 7617 basic > authentication. That seems largely backward compatible and invents a > minimum of new stuff. >=20 > Plan B: do it as a POST like most web password entries. I realize > this has backward compatibility issues with the current GET. >=20 What are the risks if the mail server and HTTP server are maintained by = different authorities? Cheers, Austin Wright.= From nobody Wed Jul 17 08:41:39 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 184111205FA for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 08:41:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.75 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.75 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=gSirbtY6; dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=QKf4Phsj Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8vQ7iB6D3KgS for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 08:41:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F1F04120105 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 08:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 1883 invoked from network); 17 Jul 2019 15:41:34 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=758.5d2f41ae.k1907; i=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=Nwnm560VbyBKo7VsE5IO3NZQC99ZvT8rPD8As0o54no=; b=gSirbtY6Ay/SnEzqV1ckIX25qVveo8sCtX6503b2jTGWRf/RRky5+A33gM+yc89mLmaBG6lRs2v+I4aFo3yyNEVOdlw7jvXRIZQlJARgkaJ1gn8zIhO+ajayH2wUuVWnryfDN70P3sotup4myFg8tz4NKyjhe3f1bJbF35dvgRBVv6/OSChNBZ/9A+n+F9EKXY3b65RRHuYIqR1UINqjZ0JvkYEMeAU03yNgcAjD+smsKgEGzok+eucs9y9aWcSv DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=758.5d2f41ae.k1907; olt=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=Nwnm560VbyBKo7VsE5IO3NZQC99ZvT8rPD8As0o54no=; b=QKf4PhsjL7R61dX9CZLuuaU2TZTkFkzJTDmk9376u+VIrHJhL3LyWOHhR7Lo3KFQZdvv7DtjbGVznhOvh8uS1fkx4R0QAcek6OhgeWHNGc42xzJF755omu0sAjnRiuhzmYMhF9Tu6FefI8xpoTWFpmJNrbUDHBRGnsfbjwld/95Zzi3PbXlJbDjfXeCqiKYG2pV4PZNN9vaUw9nxd1QEU1ipFULErhQhZPiINi3nxB+16XP7BT9rsGr3OvocaUer Received: from ary.qy ([64.246.232.221]) by imap.iecc.com ([64.57.183.75]) with ESMTPSA (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD, johnl@iecc.com) via TCP; 17 Jul 2019 15:41:33 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 928D850B9EE; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 11:41:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: 17 Jul 2019 11:41:33 -0400 Message-Id: <20190717154133.928D850B9EE@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: art@ietf.org Cc: aaa@bzfx.net In-Reply-To: <3A04338D-CE01-4693-92AF-4AE5CB70A68F@bzfx.net> Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 15:41:37 -0000 In article <3A04338D-CE01-4693-92AF-4AE5CB70A68F@bzfx.net> you write: >>>> Putting passwords in cleartext in the request uri is ill advised because many servers keep logs of requests, caches, etc >> >> Good point. >> >> Plan A: if the server needs the user name and password, it sends back >> a 401 response and the MUA sends them via RFC 7617 basic >> authentication. That seems largely backward compatible and invents a >> minimum of new stuff. >> >> Plan B: do it as a POST like most web password entries. I realize >> this has backward compatibility issues with the current GET. >> > >What are the risks if the mail server and HTTP server are maintained by different authorities? I suppose there might be administrative issues giving the web people access to the mail passwords but that's hardly a new issue. I see that Apache has a module that does authentication via LDAP, which would often be enough to solve that particular problem. One of the reasons Mozilla checks https://autoconfig./ is exactly this: it lets the mail department run a small special purpose web server separate from the main web servers. From nobody Wed Jul 17 15:31:23 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2240F1200D8 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 15:31:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2LgVpkr1yMuX for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 15:31:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sdaoden.eu (sdaoden.eu [217.144.132.164]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BF9FD12006A for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 15:31:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sdaoden.eu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id DAF5B16054; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 00:31:15 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 00:31:14 +0200 From: Steffen Nurpmeso To: "John Levine" Cc: art@ietf.org, aaa@bzfx.net Message-ID: <20190717223114.cO5Om%steffen@sdaoden.eu> In-Reply-To: <20190717154133.928D850B9EE@ary.qy> References: <20190717154133.928D850B9EE@ary.qy> Mail-Followup-To: "John Levine" , art@ietf.org, aaa@bzfx.net User-Agent: s-nail v14.9.13-132-g2b425bda OpenPGP: id=EE19E1C1F2F7054F8D3954D8308964B51883A0DD; url=https://ftp.sdaoden.eu/steffen.asc; preference=signencrypt BlahBlahBlah: Any stupid boy can crush a beetle. But all the professors in the world can make no bugs. Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 22:31:21 -0000 John Levine wrote in <20190717154133.928D850B9EE@ary.qy>: |In article <3A04338D-CE01-4693-92AF-4AE5CB70A68F@bzfx.net> you write: |>>>> Putting passwords in cleartext in the request uri is ill advised \ |>>>> because many servers keep logs of requests, caches, etc |>> |>> Good point. |>> |>> Plan A: if the server needs the user name and password, it sends back |>> a 401 response and the MUA sends them via RFC 7617 basic |>> authentication. That seems largely backward compatible and invents a |>> minimum of new stuff. Just yesterday i (currently implementing OAUTHBEARER for a BSD Mail clone) thought how easy it would be if the OAUTHBEARER request would have additional fields, like refresh-token etc. A lot of things, including password changes etc., could be done in there, protected via TLS, and managable by the mail protocol itself (SMTP, POP3, IMAP), simply by putting value in data following (on) the response code (line), instead of using a web browser. |>> Plan B: do it as a POST like most web password entries. I realize |>> this has backward compatibility issues with the current GET. |> |>What are the risks if the mail server and HTTP server are maintained \ |>by different authorities? | |I suppose there might be administrative issues giving the web people |access to the mail passwords but that's hardly a new issue. I see |that Apache has a module that does authentication via LDAP, which |would often be enough to solve that particular problem. | |One of the reasons Mozilla checks https://autoconfig./ is exactly \ |this: |it lets the mail department run a small special purpose web server \ |separate from |the main web servers. I will never understand where the benefit of turning mail clients into fully blown browsers actually is. I know in the Microsoft world they have sophisticated integration of everything and a XML protocol for that (several years ago i had contact with a person from Microsoft who pointed me to this infrastructure, i was impressed but since have forgotten most; it was not the one who had a soapy bath on a stage). This is actually hard to do with nc / telnet. I mean, i am currently doing OAUTHBEARER: where is the benefit (compared to kinit / kdestroy, which i have local control of)? I really have to go over that immense amount of code that a browser is, and possibly the tab (even if i open an explicit window) shares runtime with other tabs, which possibly have sourced in megabytes of Javascript from who knows where, the most weird seem to come in via reading newspapers. I seem to know Chromium at least optionally separates that better (--site-per-process?). Are you trying to enforce code reuse of anyway linked-in web kits, otherwise i do not know. If that is new code then it needs to be written anyway. Mail protocols offer plenty of possibilities to send passwords, and could easily become extended with some plain text commands. It is all secured via TLS now, everywhere. Extending usage of client certificates in favour of other credentials is also interesting, moving away authentication from the protocol to the transport, and reducing round trips. And POP3 could need a SYNC for enforcing pending deletes to be fixated, and i think a body only receive command would be nice too, also. In the end i will have to implement actions aka "clickable" URLs for a text-mode mail reader. --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) From nobody Wed Jul 17 20:14:42 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A4E812062C for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 20:14:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=packetizer.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KgsO1u2loy7Y for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 20:14:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dublin.packetizer.com (dublin.packetizer.com [IPv6:2600:1f18:24d6:2e01:e842:9b2b:72a2:d2c6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 37082120110 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 20:14:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from authuser (localhost [127.0.0.1]) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=packetizer.com; s=dublin; t=1563419674; bh=h1eNRgK3ovBhUm2/OYGCAEu7UMn+8Qnuhr0dndPsGxY=; h=From:To:Subject:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:References:Reply-To; b=ATlppqwbdjTZKCoCZBGvXRKGnngD4LD1tFqc7+AnuDknJVWxGYUnDOhEziIvnneWc PtDkZisdA+ztZE3eh8tlNWfYqwWUkGrQ69BxZTPJ2gaOkSwC8vzu/yKylDXUwH+pNK cr3Gbfd+YDvwpQK/8Q1qQ3QK2lrbpaVl/a7DVKOY= From: "Paul E. Jones" To: "Austin Wright" , "John Levine" Cc: masinter@gmail.com, art@ietf.org Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 03:14:29 +0000 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3A04338D-CE01-4693-92AF-4AE5CB70A68F@bzfx.net> References: <20190716220519.A420450758F@ary.qy> <3A04338D-CE01-4693-92AF-4AE5CB70A68F@bzfx.net> Reply-To: "Paul E. Jones" User-Agent: eM_Client/7.2.35595.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 03:14:40 -0000 Austin, >What are the risks if the mail server and HTTP server are maintained by di= fferent authorities? > I expect they would be in some cases, such as service providers that=20 sell simple web hosting services. That's another reason why people=20 several years ago suggested that we separate the initial inquiry from=20 the follow-up that actually returns the mail configuration data. That's=20 how the example is presented in my draft. Paul From nobody Wed Jul 17 21:24:06 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41CA61200D5 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 21:24:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=XhQCDEQY; dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=YPHyPqlZ Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UfsqDO98Nbst for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 21:24:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EC5B2120118 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 21:23:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 64986 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2019 04:23:57 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; s=fdd8.5d2ff45d.k1907; i=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=Ak2CHimlsZiUs5JB06l+ykPEaZCuBhLBxbQ0AlMi1rU=; b=XhQCDEQYjbGPKpp+P4c2CYj4oToUE+UhM67uTRAIajXpC0kM2XWPcS+/i1JKVdsD+SVfnkIJ7LmYpGQIzie2M9onVyg5wAR0fAvbKXdOF4lncJnA5vEeXRWi2CyefNklGOixIa2JQc8iWgFFulAq94z9mi6BUbXBYo/7+xMZvx56ugG063o1uXPO7u/Zrv9w7hvFSEAq0M30SbSvJU+gImNUXqdnpKgFW5enleFtIYbNFYpBJHbJmL1xZY43xnxA DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; s=fdd8.5d2ff45d.k1907; olt=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=Ak2CHimlsZiUs5JB06l+ykPEaZCuBhLBxbQ0AlMi1rU=; b=YPHyPqlZS/5v25ianjCiWSjeuiC/ZgdIJq6L+2SKQ+mJrol5FaTiwWaQuZ1yUlVBoMFdRtrPxisFkuhnEI6T45DO2M4NOVrHu4QeRAbUMfvOsZuHOzv0JSZllkHqddM2S2i4ce7EfRrI9J+FesaVwNF2iJW6RhzUGT4RLrYCx9JCFpVoudLEnzV78Bt+KG984oH8/v2uGsc2MLZFWsrIUZDa0dlzifC1kSmYDM1OGEFGyjy9/WmzUXzXKSs1SHbQ Received: from localhost ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPSA (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD, johnl@iecc.com) via TCP6; 18 Jul 2019 04:23:57 -0000 Date: 18 Jul 2019 00:23:56 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R Levine" To: "Paul E. Jones" Cc: art@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <20190716220519.A420450758F@ary.qy> <3A04338D-CE01-4693-92AF-4AE5CB70A68F@bzfx.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.21.9999 (OSX 337 2019-05-05) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 04:24:03 -0000 On Thu, 18 Jul 2019, Paul E. Jones wrote: >> What are the risks if the mail server and HTTP server are maintained by >> different authorities? > > I expect they would be in some cases, such as service providers that sell > simple web hosting services. That's another reason why people several years > ago suggested that we separate the initial inquiry from the follow-up that > actually returns the mail configuration data. That's how the example is > presented in my draft. But in your draft, the initial response is often specific to the particular address, e.g., it has a personal and business version. How does that help? It still needs to know something about each address. Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From nobody Wed Jul 17 22:18:01 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E3351200DB for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 22:17:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.75 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.75 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=mq96S+Xn; dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=ZlmP7/Y5 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1sPpEg1fj0W7 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 22:17:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4D4F912002F for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 22:17:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 73598 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2019 05:17:56 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=11f7c.5d300104.k1907; i=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=i37Z/zClQEF4eRXvM+tAOC5ZsC1pVxEEu7fQgPmMXaQ=; b=mq96S+XnLD2YEZAUgupJ6Xl6kGO/4L14jrZ2a8JMFTatEPtgN09T/0XGAgHaAlstcP5BlgsmtsEKhFFvUBh+HG0f58cG9FPJCDNoDxFFOn+fBnxPZQiTei3EMFt9Nf9hT7Vusg8MZZdkb5Tk2LyqhIMtZvSt9INddcrU2xGholo9KeU7A/RvVwpWIT6IlGrCkNwr6K7YV2M7+EMEn8DnU0PtKRD61VT0tT1XUi9zlIF/qpbmC9Zd5N0t122ODdoG DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=11f7c.5d300104.k1907; olt=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=i37Z/zClQEF4eRXvM+tAOC5ZsC1pVxEEu7fQgPmMXaQ=; b=ZlmP7/Y57+5F5y7WMElIjk41dCyd+EjLTaOf2q831JX102q6n8OMFLfc1FJxKFA9jHDhiF9zIUuQW1DwlvoNJQ9GRhZe44ol1y+H7D8Fa45xe1IyYxpKOvIuqI7xlQie0+/KMRs6qDfq67R7ift+25AYdLK/ikXTgYnFlpwENgQoNwSlsUEmGekTCXOIr4jNlg2mAOtNC6RtMo/GV6YJxZJlpy4xElJCWSiru89faXPEXjb9ehcLYUjBu2XJ8et8 Received: from ary.local ([71.59.64.39]) by imap.iecc.com ([64.57.183.75]) with ESMTPSA (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD, johnl@iecc.com) via TCP; 18 Jul 2019 05:17:56 -0000 Received: by ary.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 130D5510A29; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 01:17:55 -0400 (EDT) Date: 18 Jul 2019 01:17:55 -0400 Message-Id: <20190718051756.130D5510A29@ary.local> From: "John Levine" To: art@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <20190717223114.cO5Om%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 05:17:59 -0000 In article <20190717223114.cO5Om%steffen@sdaoden.eu> you write: > |>> Plan A: if the server needs the user name and password, it sends back > |>> a 401 response and the MUA sends them via RFC 7617 basic > |>> authentication. That seems largely backward compatible and invents a > |>> minimum of new stuff. > >Just yesterday i (currently implementing OAUTHBEARER for a BSD >Mail clone) thought how easy it would be if the OAUTHBEARER >request would have additional fields, like refresh-token etc. I believe you, but as I may have said once or twice before, my proposal is intended to be a compatible extension of the autoconfig that the most popular open source MUA already has. > |One of the reasons Mozilla checks https://autoconfig./ is exactly \ > |this: > |it lets the mail department run a small special purpose web server \ > |separate from the main web servers. > >I will never understand where the benefit of turning mail clients >into fully blown browsers actually is. I don't see how this follows. In both of these proposals, the MUA makes a few HTTP requests and then gets a blob of XML or JSON. That skips the 95% of browsers that render HTML. (We'll ignore the detail that modern MUAs all have that 95% anyway to render HTML mail.) >Are you trying to enforce code reuse of anyway linked-in web kits, >otherwise i do not know. No, I'm trying to make it backward compatible with existing MUAs. >In the end i will have to implement actions aka "clickable" URLs >for a text-mode mail reader. I don't understand that at all. Why would you need to do that? R's, John From nobody Wed Jul 17 23:33:53 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A82B4120143 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 23:33:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gulbrandsen.priv.no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zieWWpOe8kMG for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 23:33:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stabil.gulbrandsen.priv.no (stabil.gulbrandsen.priv.no [144.76.73.169]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B009312000E for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 23:33:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stabil.gulbrandsen.priv.no (stabil.gulbrandsen.priv.no [IPv6:2a01:4f8:191:91a8::3]) by stabil.gulbrandsen.priv.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FFA0C013A; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 07:36:42 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gulbrandsen.priv.no; s=mail; t=1563431802; bh=tcaJPm0N8jnDzOnvpkpUE6DGRSRHDUod8GEtASs2Zl4=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=M3IwiCiUIrZQCcr8NWTSOL25QyZ/YN7ejbGSQf1Ay8SWAR7naQRMDNDAD3pSX28FO KGN2gp4vDCy/kL2IG2bONWaW/6Ktufkutko/QicNQdYRmCp9ztS1xqnt/bhAvmT4zJ 87wS3brHWe0+KmkxRLx84zEQdN2OiafwjwOuwH5Q= Received: from arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no by stabil.gulbrandsen.priv.no (Archiveopteryx 3.2.0) with esmtpsa id 1563431801-18747-18745/9/19; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 06:36:41 +0000 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: art@ietf.org Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 08:33:44 +0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <9c6cde19-be14-4d13-9194-eff01770a61e@gulbrandsen.priv.no> In-Reply-To: <20190718051756.130D5510A29@ary.local> References: <20190717154133.928D850B9EE@ary.qy> <20190717223114.cO5Om%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20190718051756.130D5510A29@ary.local> User-Agent: Trojita/0.7; Qt/5.7.1; xcb; Linux; Devuan GNU/Linux 2.0 (ascii) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 06:33:52 -0000 On Thursday 18 July 2019 07:17:55 CEST, John Levine wrote: >> In the end i will have to implement actions aka "clickable" URLs >> for a text-mode mail reader. > > I don't understand that at all. Why would you need to do that? It sounds as if Steffen hasn't looked at Thunderbird autoconfiguration, at all, and is arguing that something else would be bad. BTW, Thunderbird is unlikely to be the only client that uses its scheme. The relevant stack overflow questions overwhelmingly point to the Thunderbird scheme. https://stackoverflow.com/search?q=%5Bimap%5D+autoconfiguration https://stackoverflow.com/search?q=%5Bmail%5D+autoconfiguration Arnt From nobody Thu Jul 18 01:41:09 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BC9F120111 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 01:40:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cridland.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E4tQpbJwnKJv for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 01:40:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x52a.google.com (mail-ed1-x52a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7EFB312006D for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 01:40:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x52a.google.com with SMTP id w13so29445844eds.4 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 01:40:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cridland.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=48WNc517EiATeSKxUkL5i9e4ragIT/RJrjdTfZ3O0A4=; b=HImZbvDhoO4KmXDj7FzVxDu0akJ7+JoL+Bi8xusrJUp3Ysney9uwgoTNPWP7mCNDFO MZNw0GJRLRzb5ltvsNP+pU4MaeCp8J2/cMC7DoZyHE0xPByMasKKsFUfiDgtlCcwlTUZ N32Y/fIDRBkyoB9f1AN9xx1vOFj62qXDicWx0= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=48WNc517EiATeSKxUkL5i9e4ragIT/RJrjdTfZ3O0A4=; b=SMA/XYOjbfsrLeAy2V5pstEIdbqwxnA91ZK5G6y/ZkcmBh4wNODV7vHC85nysSV0vB W3jd6jBH0Mcr1D+rLolp2phPSbo5TrOf4yv7VjoPl6c0hqBXH0UqZnP/I4uUkWmcly1F Tl6G1viHe6hkm2Fjn07eSuDja41DIOg1FcdzYMLWCBZiwe48mGn7la8+XKyyU5P/vyQ/ p8amf+fEhHzTv4CoCHidnxV8PKhwiUaXBT/QKdZAkaL5Z1Fl30gAkGNZJnxp/VxR8d3t aWj/xjDYAcc9QAsZMbZwE3rGZTtavUg6R2NDVUDytipd9T/OY80BcPhfIUjxcqpdjsxE IkZA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX32Ro3kiEG7vGotVSwu2VtD3oWk3mO7xVGK2cwwKCuAa8cDD+5 B+hxh5f+6C4g2b0sg39mOHMhP1O9GowdSAYM6P3H3UNi8Vg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwi1lLMP9wfbQqYnVMsIhcFKtFCVqKBUPCCdEnHtSfHkX6Ou4kmGG8ip91mqQK2SXVqeIsfvP01tWeMYp2Rb5U= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:11da:: with SMTP id o26mr35097937eja.64.1563439253899; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 01:40:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Dave Cridland Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 09:40:41 +0100 Message-ID: To: "Paul E. Jones" Cc: "art@ietf.org" , "webfinger@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005b5eab058df091b3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 08:40:59 -0000 --0000000000005b5eab058df091b3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Obviously I'd prefer ACAP. But also, please note the existence of RFC 6186. It's not widely deployed, but if we were to open this can of worms, and not simply reuse Thunderbird's autoconfig XML format (which, if I recall, is also supported by various other Open Source MUAs), then I'd be keen to get SRV up and running properly. Dave. On Mon, 15 Jul 2019 at 20:31, Paul E. Jones wrote: > ART folks, > > Several years ago when I was working on WebFinger, one of the use cases I > presented was using WebFinger to facilitate auto-configuring email > clients. It was and still is a problem I deal with today. > > For my own family, I have to manually configure several different clients > on several different platforms for each member of the family. It's time > consuming and really needs to be made simpler. > > My wife also has to deal with this issue where she works, because her > company, while just 100 or so employees, has offices in two different > countries and the mail server settings an employee uses depends on his or > her geographic location. To use standard IETF protocols, it means a lot of > manual provisioning. > > I see the same sort of challenges with service providers. If one wants to > have his or her own domain, but isn't technically savvy, they're in for a > lot of "fun" trying to figure out the various settings. Seriously, no > normal person should have to understand what SMTP or IMAP means, and > definitely what port numbers or security settings to fill in. > > While there has been a generic DNS-based method for email provision for a > while, it doesn't work for me. It doesn't work for my wife's company, > either. It also doesn't define everything one might need to define (e.g., > required security settings or policies). > > So we put together a very simple example to show how this might be done > with WebFinger. See the draft here: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-webfinger-email-autoconfig-00 > > The example in that document should make it clear how we intend this to > work, though the detailed procedures and syntax are missing. We first want > to see what interest exists and if this general approach will work for > everyone before getting into too much detail. > > We'd love to have some dialog on this to see how we can address this > problem of auto-configuring email clients. > > Paul > > _______________________________________________ > art mailing list > art@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art > --0000000000005b5eab058df091b3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Obviously I'd prefer ACAP.

But also= , please note the existence of RFC 6186. It's not widely deployed, but = if we were to open this can of worms, and not simply reuse Thunderbird'= s autoconfig XML format (which, if I recall, is also supported by various o= ther Open Source MUAs), then I'd be keen to get SRV up and running prop= erly.

Dave.

On Mon, 15 Jul 2019 at 20:31, Pau= l E. Jones <paulej=3D= 40packetizer.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
ART folks,

Several years ago when I was working on = WebFinger, one of the use cases I presented was using WebFinger to facilita= te auto-configuring email clients.=C2=A0 It was and still is a problem I de= al with today.

For my own family, I have to manual= ly configure several different clients on several different platforms for e= ach member of the family.=C2=A0 It's time consuming and really needs to= be made simpler.

My wife also has to deal with th= is issue where she works, because her company, while just 100 or so employe= es, has offices in two different countries and the mail server settings an = employee uses depends on his or her geographic location.=C2=A0 To use stand= ard IETF protocols, it means a lot of manual provisioning.

I see the same sort of challenges with service providers. If one w= ants to have his or her own domain, but isn't technically savvy, they&#= 39;re in for a lot of "fun" trying to figure out the various sett= ings. Seriously, no normal person should have to understand what SMTP or IM= AP means, and definitely what port numbers or security settings to fill in.=

While there has been a generic DNS-based method f= or email provision for a while, it doesn't work for me. It doesn't = work for my wife's company, either. It also doesn't define everythi= ng one might need to define (e.g., required security settings or policies).=

So we put together a very simple example to show = how this might be done with WebFinger.=C2=A0 See the draft here:

The example in that = document should make it clear how we intend this to work, though the detail= ed procedures and syntax are missing.=C2=A0 We first want to see what inter= est exists and if this general approach will work for everyone before getti= ng into too much detail.

We'd love to have som= e dialog on this to see how we can address this problem of auto-configuring= email clients.

Paul

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art@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art
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Jones" Message-ID: <4BB105E1-0973-4416-8C2A-A729CD869C8A@packetizer.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 14:12:13 -0000 ------V0SNC6DDFAUB60JFU5YOYHYOCM96FP Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dave, RFC 6186 is the DNS-based one to which I referred below=2E Unfortunately, = it doesn't allow setting various configuration options and wouldn't work at= all for my wife's use case where employees use different mail servers base= d on the country in which they reside=2E Paul -------- Original Message -------- From: Dave Cridland Sent: July 18, 2019 4:40:41 AM EDT To: "Paul E=2E Jones" Cc: "art@ietf=2Eorg" , "webfinger@ietf=2Eorg" Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger Obviously I'd prefer ACAP=2E But also, please note the existence of RFC 6186=2E It's not widely deploye= d, but if we were to open this can of worms, and not simply reuse Thunderbird's autoconfig XML format (which, if I recall, is also supported by various other Open Source MUAs), then I'd be keen to get SRV up and running properly=2E Dave=2E On Mon, 15 Jul 2019 at 20:31, Paul E=2E Jones wrote: > ART folks, > > Several years ago when I was working on WebFinger, one of the use cases = I > presented was using WebFinger to facilitate auto-configuring email > clients=2E It was and still is a problem I deal with today=2E > > For my own family, I have to manually configure several different client= s > on several different platforms for each member of the family=2E It's ti= me > consuming and really needs to be made simpler=2E > > My wife also has to deal with this issue where she works, because her > company, while just 100 or so employees, has offices in two different > countries and the mail server settings an employee uses depends on his o= r > her geographic location=2E To use standard IETF protocols, it means a l= ot of > manual provisioning=2E > > I see the same sort of challenges with service providers=2E If one wants= to > have his or her own domain, but isn't technically savvy, they're in for = a > lot of "fun" trying to figure out the various settings=2E Seriously, no > normal person should have to understand what SMTP or IMAP means, and > definitely what port numbers or security settings to fill in=2E > > While there has been a generic DNS-based method for email provision for = a > while, it doesn't work for me=2E It doesn't work for my wife's company, > either=2E It also doesn't define everything one might need to define (e= =2Eg=2E, > required security settings or policies)=2E > > So we put together a very simple example to show how this might be done > with WebFinger=2E See the draft here: > https://tools=2Eietf=2Eorg/html/draft-jones-webfinger-email-autoconfig-0= 0 > > The example in that document should make it clear how we intend this to > work, though the detailed procedures and syntax are missing=2E We first= want > to see what interest exists and if this general approach will work for > everyone before getting into too much detail=2E > > We'd love to have some dialog on this to see how we can address this > problem of auto-configuring email clients=2E > > Paul > > _______________________________________________ > art mailing list > art@ietf=2Eorg > https://www=2Eietf=2Eorg/mailman/listinfo/art > ------V0SNC6DDFAUB60JFU5YOYHYOCM96FP Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dave,

RFC 6186 is the DNS-based one to whic= h I referred below=2E Unfortunately, it doesn't allow setting various confi= guration options and wouldn't work at all for my wife's use case where empl= oyees use different mail servers based on the country in which they reside= =2E

Paul

From: Dave Cridland <dave@cridland=2Enet>
Sent: July 18, 2019 4:40:41 AM EDT
To: "Paul E=2E Jones" <paulej@packetizer=2Ecom>
Cc: "art@ietf=2Eorg" <art@ietf=2Eorg>, "webfinger@ietf=2Eorg"= <webfinger@ietf=2Eorg>
Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger

Obviously I'd prefer ACAP=2E

But also,= please note the existence of RFC 6186=2E It's not widely deployed, but if = we were to open this can of worms, and not simply reuse Thunderbird's autoc= onfig XML format (which, if I recall, is also supported by various other Op= en Source MUAs), then I'd be keen to get SRV up and running properly=2E

Dave=2E

On Mon, 15 Jul 2019 at 20:31, Paul E=2E = Jones <paulej=3D40packetizer=2Ecom@dmarc=2Eietf=2Eorg> wrote:
ART folks,

Several years ago when I was working on= WebFinger, one of the use cases I presented was using WebFinger to facilit= ate auto-configuring email clients=2E  It was and still is a problem I= deal with today=2E

For my own family, I have to m= anually configure several different clients on several different platforms = for each member of the family=2E  It's time consuming and really needs= to be made simpler=2E

My wife also has to deal wi= th this issue where she works, because her company, while just 100 or so em= ployees, has offices in two different countries and the mail server setting= s an employee uses depends on his or her geographic location=2E  To us= e standard IETF protocols, it means a lot of manual provisioning=2E

I see the same sort of challenges with service providers= =2E If one wants to have his or her own domain, but isn't technically savvy= , they're in for a lot of "fun" trying to figure out the various settings= =2E Seriously, no normal person should have to understand what SMTP or IMAP= means, and definitely what port numbers or security settings to fill in=2E=

While there has been a generic DNS-based method f= or email provision for a while, it doesn't work for me=2E It doesn't work f= or my wife's company, either=2E It also doesn't define everything one might= need to define (e=2Eg=2E, required security settings or policies)=2E
=

So we put together a very simple example to show how th= is might be done with WebFinger=2E  See the draft here:

The example= in that document should make it clear how we intend this to work, though t= he detailed procedures and syntax are missing=2E  We first want to see= what interest exists and if this general approach will work for everyone b= efore getting into too much detail=2E

We'd love to= have some dialog on this to see how we can address this problem of auto-co= nfiguring email clients=2E

Paul

_______________________________________________
art mailing list
art@ietf=2Eorg
https://www=2Eietf=2Eorg/mailman/listinfo/art
------V0SNC6DDFAUB60JFU5YOYHYOCM96FP-- From nobody Thu Jul 18 07:40:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14ED612061E for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 07:40:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=packetizer.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IyIJVtooAfZe for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 07:40:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dublin.packetizer.com (dublin.packetizer.com [IPv6:2600:1f18:24d6:2e01:e842:9b2b:72a2:d2c6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E1FFA120601 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 07:40:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from authuser (localhost [127.0.0.1]) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=packetizer.com; s=dublin; t=1563460807; bh=1caZtS+MIJ3bLiR04IN7lIoWPUaYobwjOZhBLQVl6s0=; h=Date:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:To:CC:From; b=S1Id4Q8ze7ficchFJ8EUphMv49KcuqYW2YX+RPFSwqtbKpeNxL4+DN4bLnc0cpTmx lU8N9lGmLo3aUqzbJYf6QvX6Iws3LL4gv7DqPq05Id9x6o+BitfZiWyVIoRoXLNRgt h0IdGiDNJt61o4uMmrT3quVjpuILLYJa1pxBLU1k= Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 10:40:05 -0400 User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: References: <20190716220519.A420450758F@ary.qy> <3A04338D-CE01-4693-92AF-4AE5CB70A68F@bzfx.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----K4BSAYZ0DPKCGPP1R6KZQUSA683B4S" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Autocrypt: addr=paulej@packetizer.com; keydata= mQQNBFHlwHIBIADPBuXxiC7IP3Acolod+D4BWYKBDGgyX90mexkDt6Wi6D2LJlpadGp99NgG9Oc4 m9QDEPPuhRHKvgexNAxAeILUZlOX6m/30n83VuwGNZagxjawN9/Kv4WrLlDI+HSZeKwfVf8GBus/ jB6c5WQtV6/L7LYCQLU08dWng8NlBi6dupyWC1rhtNWnPCqS4C3nINWJRx4grfIvkI5PbDMPca/B iluZxy0XntHuNWf51Gj4IIIAK2QNWQwDLaDnZ774Q1HfMTt4u4UwivsOt9Z49w92Q6FuN7/3sve7 DwrEVtp0xCKqaBQOX2354VVOTMh0bhHGLprQ1BL3QAWlyg/ZkTs+kopd3h+mJ0Mkg3Es66umcG8U YbH+edmZ7mHWqHuWmNieEycZgmah6kfrb7lUZeJnkkLfZ6SS3fhJIhJq3RwTKfvyF9LNvnZ7XXsO VSBKvVFPHWuDe3tbglTZCEYIcdFotgMcpZatdJF0ZPdLPGECc/XCZOgQpICGZ6b0dt/uJKOPC1OY RlFfIWc9bDgRCQY0MCqTsYiGevMNdQTlZHgTactm4h886bETFdbSoDniPls7LuI3cAr++iHmF56o hwh9Hl8KVzsv+uSL1mmrfE/X+lEaJnPUrQopByFQySE4D+hvOFLNh2iv7BHyXX9G0Dv9jDB6hW+6 1RYBf23GRZWSEVMyoYfbbU7Tg5JNrVRLU7nUMVbla2fGIKz9K3ejtCy/35QAjt7DIrVVe9k9J54r Z1yD8ZXfQXv869/q/mHGVzxdtgO+PcrIXJYck8R7jSDB2wIo3g5z+2P3Lt2gvB4w9UUSNZ4deE95 MNc6FvqqTMlBzoxzBf2E+SoUZKTl4i48XJhKI+Bk71NnMug2ER2NbyQIg6aH7l4t4t38mK6yt/cd 00f8UtKxp7z2EnqXJ+/kx0pq9zECp76oAPv9JlInntbcl89jRS4qMAMgZFEy6sYOMftfhVgDkci/ JR+2s4V65aUxcR6PLtXRHg3ZZ2F4hEBkBxJQt4LZ6lWzMXuWkCfjca032WOq/Zl+RMrs18dywVoh DXqSaYoSCzkfeCbzTE4cCuE8o9FUx7B/nS6g+h0wvrGDcLeGIwVWYO+Q0gf+vbLq2ZfykWjS5Fa3 ZKLdEOWaNas/8UlW33lU3u9nj84dJgMcP/VAugd8N9QWJ9NKszL8689NmwQnzoIU43+ucRd0WgCA WgXtV6MmG2WUpKN6y/ARqis6NvKTpl/t7SMznBxZGg2ZUC7pBpT/cq6vi18+tWP1ghRGJgJJ4t6v D64fBQTAaaN9MxU46OIlcWtjvf5zzL0pwebYOdInN/wA7YOOK3Q/wQsPaD5dvY+6H9yrCLMBwGyR l3TB/bsaYqtFABEBAAG0JVBhdWwgRS4gSm9uZXMgPHBhdWxlakBwYWNrZXRpemVyLmNvbT6JBDgE EwECACIFAlOH4kACGy8GCwkIBwMCBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJEHropU4WcvKlpF4gAI34 iWlJY84nB8y12sqLldU0d9rSnk6euOYf7HIIJ8yHGCHVkQJUksjcwPOAr/zw4XjftSEv8JN3PDLp khvQ2snEIZ7UPFafUmbq3BQLPkN0Mpamx7br7vpLwpRMwbPyWYc4Z0+Ag4t6p/01troi++v3DLDN AjAov/Q526pL7qFkIJpadMcVcTEgr5XEsVVxw5TbGrqyDwam+aNIVcxDNxzOG4nFJ1bjUGAeoRcV Jnz0X0CQUFzxgMceyjuqI3Qyj5kp3gZkoibJyfZ6/6FFVV5dGAlHluL52H6KiUAkWPf0qbGo6ELu xsnSX9JPVUtr14B6HfZP8kWX740Hu2yBQTAxhsfhhsR4LNUxKcdNFSJ/Ozpo3i7fvek3CF+ash7l 25JAkI+1TH4kh7dYpndwTWwXDNqTMQR+I+JtsKgATpx/pBWaNK0zvWKuxjoM/CVn4NPWf9aqfdF3 wvTq5EMDarQ8Leou0LsKLKZsJHYYxFlMlD37/+q4UsIy5iPatNl8qm4YM4LykjvB+Ozsd3OZ3z+b uSdJ+6QwOnje21tPLhSI8dEIw8S+DKl+80I/2bEd3+wKptHcB0NU3OF9B3N1ClOp7wFIrgsQ0pTH A2pchxWyC9pngYhErJS6nZaQeWwrN7VH9RkS2SPPkAzf5N27ayky2rF8nDZrkO1OuXCaH9gyi2CQ fJEtbAPMXfAJo5Ls0trEMqQGDAW3/GxCo5NoX70bXjPd+NXBIYBaC9dc6Iyqei3xQJNsE2vtPEo3 glJaE3mFMpUOILqQkU8hjs3+J1rNkpkmaoenlvbDVUqM0TVGzHFJlPtLXR/DsDjgjk1uaS+xIlD0 exwLp3/Bgs4nXAQ1UYlPOLC/BokUPwAuSuUrCAYHfAzwsynIgI8j/EHeKgyjyuQ4f1uIlzy63rVd 8QVvGt6qV2hO0Bj4FzIMG9xG4KZ7cPziHmAh5tR0PbV35vJLww3HbmL6LzC5CaB2cYkLuOL4BuhU D+b20GiThhtYaPBQr49NBNViCB+RlhojKIS4Ou9+ngg2L4EWe6rY0yzR+BWPBvNtZNantozb49Pu IcYhfxzWFjK7Gt6zlQeUfsBGtdjR1p4emdH4c/VFdzj4bNPtKv56mkUrcFQpE1vym/PPYyvG3wBz UXF/d/W5NqojZmuQLO+GfMPo2sbT3V0LTELlfRfzOstA7SpdQgYpMoRQwErxIwn2lUVjt6DjXeaR oOkQgYAgQqHYLrWef6gYLy05xHEN6Ow6t7VDxuZOtjrJqQ3oyfcyR9EsyAET8CvSSaHABOaqWOiw E+TzU9/42ei0Qph08xL8BQMQVsnOJZLM8DMNWzWB3wVxCaVil+unNTnmw7mjClcPFuBjFyc= To: John R Levine CC: art@ietf.org From: "Paul E. Jones" Message-ID: <3F299649-6396-4C71-B587-D80650C22D0A@packetizer.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 14:40:13 -0000 ------K4BSAYZ0DPKCGPP1R6KZQUSA683B4S Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John, The first query in my draft is the WebFinger one where the client would re= ceive a list of URLs to then query to get various mail server configuration= s=2E Using my wife's use case, the web server is maintained by a different team= than the mail server=2E The only thing the web server team needs to know i= s where to direct the client for email configuration for each user, thus on= e static entry in WebFinger=2E I'd expect the team managing mail server to= deal with the actual mail configuration data and any authentication requir= ements=2E The example in the draft with two addresses is to show that a single accou= nt identifier could have multiple named email accounts behind it=2E I suspe= ct that would be unusual, but the possibility exists=2E If people don't wan= t that flexibility, we could require that only one link relation be returne= d of the mail configuration type=2E Does that help clarify my point? Paul -------- Original Message -------- From: John R Levine Sent: July 18, 2019 12:23:56 AM EDT To: "Paul E=2E Jones" Cc: art@ietf=2Eorg Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger On Thu, 18 Jul 2019, Paul E=2E Jones wrote: >> What are the risks if the mail server and HTTP server are maintained by= =20 >> different authorities? > > I expect they would be in some cases, such as service providers that sel= l=20 > simple web hosting services=2E That's another reason why people several = years=20 > ago suggested that we separate the initial inquiry from the follow-up th= at=20 > actually returns the mail configuration data=2E That's how the example i= s=20 > presented in my draft=2E But in your draft, the initial response is often specific to the=20 particular address, e=2Eg=2E, it has a personal and business version=2E H= ow=20 does that help? It still needs to know something about each address=2E Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh=2Ecom, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail=2E https://jl= =2Ely ------K4BSAYZ0DPKCGPP1R6KZQUSA683B4S Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John,

The first query in my draft is the We= bFinger one where the client would receive a list of URLs to then query to = get various mail server configurations=2E

Using my wife's use case, = the web server is maintained by a different team than the mail server=2E Th= e only thing the web server team needs to know is where to direct the clien= t for email configuration for each user, thus one static entry in WebFinger= =2E I'd expect the team managing mail server to deal with the actual mail = configuration data and any authentication requirements=2E

The exampl= e in the draft with two addresses is to show that a single account identifi= er could have multiple named email accounts behind it=2E I suspect that wou= ld be unusual, but the possibility exists=2E If people don't want that flex= ibility, we could require that only one link relation be returned of the ma= il configuration type=2E

Does that help clarify my point?

Pau= l

From: John R Levine <johnl@taugh=2Ecom>
Sent: July 18, 2019 12:23:56 AM EDT
To: "Paul E=2E Jones" <paulej@packetizer=2Ecom>
Cc: art@ietf=2Eorg
Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger

On Thu, 18 Jul 2019, Paul E=2E Jones wrote:
What are the risks if the mail server and HTTP server are=
 maintained by 
different authorities?

 I expect the=
y would be in some cases, such as service providers that sell 
 simple w=
eb hosting services=2E That's another reason why people several years 
 =
ago suggested that we separate the initial inquiry from the follow-up that =

 actually returns the mail configuration data=2E That's how the example=
 is 
 presented in my draft=2E

But in your draft, th=
e initial response is often specific to the 
particular address, e=2Eg=
=2E, it has a personal and business version=2E  How 
does that help?  It=
 still needs to know something about each address=2E

Regards,
Joh=
n Levine, johnl@taugh=2Ecom, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY
Please=
 consider the environment before reading this e-mail=2E https://jl=2Ely
------K4BSAYZ0DPKCGPP1R6KZQUSA683B4S-- From nobody Thu Jul 18 09:03:09 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54D5F1207BD; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 09:03:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.557 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.557 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.091, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HnkNHxWioSry; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 09:03:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-f49.google.com (mail-ot1-f49.google.com [209.85.210.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2A62F1207EE; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 09:03:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-f49.google.com with SMTP id s20so29593025otp.4; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 09:03:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=D+ie+Ch58f+IOhc9Uc1evnctbltGjtb3uGI3DcdMryA=; b=ix2lHnLWITVwA+7AuI4MHT+8ngVfDvo9jPa5RtzrmENqPbg+2ce9UV0jKp8mqwQ0eD Zcme2sGmK7NAm0Cid+OpbOO9YIpfKlYXv2m9OgLgjW6BXZCjmJw9O7skXSo1V3qCO0dw rNJ/djPDF2VOX89BnwUdWJcvQCWpzu+0a+nuy675E9isN76UvJh7ufHHGfb1aUWzmrph DEkz+9kD2naReKIxkuxLqKHhUWcnzoCpgdhnnDYPDo9ZbWq2uHDSH7Q8PuSZ9cJ+S9sJ DA++P/8VNip2yJfWaqsgg77Lf1cIFDAt70QnCdICpNnp4I1D/bQG0cl/9M5m5eLDYbox uowA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAU7NYdKZkNWlgFS0pa2K8wJBEmrAGvPnpjIQw/ARjXDEirDOPem RUoREpBO02Qo9UtqTR/UXEVWkeHM8ZFFAa16uFy4fA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyatqYUndTR/qEJeZi0UhDnWG3sFs7vnzMt/mOQ4AufS8MvQepq5+58OEC0N0q/KPaQgolYiHLzymqDFsrH90w= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:160c:: with SMTP id g12mr36934709otr.231.1563465784348; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 09:03:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4BB105E1-0973-4416-8C2A-A729CD869C8A@packetizer.com> In-Reply-To: <4BB105E1-0973-4416-8C2A-A729CD869C8A@packetizer.com> From: Phillip Hallam-Baker Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 12:02:53 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Paul E. Jones" Cc: Dave Cridland , "art@ietf.org" , "webfinger@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b1d5e2058df6bef9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 16:03:07 -0000 --000000000000b1d5e2058df6bef9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Responding to Paul's point about his wife needing a country specific configuration, I think we need to think about this a bit differently. This is one example of an application configuration problem and a service discovery problem. What we need here is a scheme that is capable of supporting the general case. It makes no sense for any of the providers to change their existing schemes unless it is to move to a scheme that is more powerful because it is more general. Which means that at minimum it is supported by all the MUAs but ideally means it is supported by multiple applications as well. I have been thinking about this problem from the other side. I started what is now the Mathematical Mesh trying to work out how to automatically configure and maintain S/MIME and OpenPGP. While doing that, I suddenly realized that I could add in the SMTP configuration as well. So once Alice has configured her email service on one device, it is configured for them all. She will get her SUBMIT/IMAP/POP3 settings at the same time that she gets the S/MIME and OpenPGP keys to work on the device. I showed this to Dave Clark who asked for SSH as well (which is a real pig to configure as there is a bootstrap problem and a foul up may require someone to take a plane trip to a server to fix it). Being able to replicate the config across devices does not solve the problem of initial acquisition of course. But the replication mechanism should certainly use the same data structure (though translated to JSON probably). I have not thought about the Enterprise application of the Mesh in detail yet because I have to get it working for individual users first. But I am pretty sure that what we want here is single point onboarding (and terminations). So Alice joins example.com. She is issued a (new) company laptop and BYOB's her mobile. The onboarder checks the boxes for the corporate applications she is authorized for, email, ssh, etc. and the group encryption services for the teams she belongs to. The configulator then does all the rest. All that remains is to connect up Alice and her devices to these configurations. Which can be done in person via QR code or remotely via a Base32 fingerprint. It presents a workfactor of at least 2^112 either way. So from Alice's point of view, when she goes to the badge office to pick up her badge, she scans a QR code with her phone and that is it - she is all configured for email, chat, slack, slick, ssh, S/MIME and all the encrypted data she needs from the cloud. If she is working on some really sensitive stuff, her line manager or a VP might need to meet her in person to authorize adding her to certain groups. Termination should mean no more than unchecking the boxes. The cryptography I am using was discovered by Torben Pedersen and Matt Blaze in the mid 1990s. The reason it hasn't been applied was that it was too hard to use and until Robert Snowden came along, people thought the administrator of the key service in the cloud could be trusted. So I have made it really easy to use and administrate even in the case that we have separation of duties at the administrator level as well. On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 10:12 AM Paul E. Jones wrote: > Dave, > > RFC 6186 is the DNS-based one to which I referred below. Unfortunately, it > doesn't allow setting various configuration options and wouldn't work at > all for my wife's use case where employees use different mail servers based > on the country in which they reside. > > Paul > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Dave Cridland > *Sent:* July 18, 2019 4:40:41 AM EDT > *To:* "Paul E. Jones" > *Cc:* "art@ietf.org" , "webfinger@ietf.org" < > webfinger@ietf.org> > *Subject:* Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger > > Obviously I'd prefer ACAP. > > But also, please note the existence of RFC 6186. It's not widely deployed, > but if we were to open this can of worms, and not simply reuse > Thunderbird's autoconfig XML format (which, if I recall, is also supported > by various other Open Source MUAs), then I'd be keen to get SRV up and > running properly. > > Dave. > > On Mon, 15 Jul 2019 at 20:31, Paul E. Jones 40packetizer.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > >> ART folks, >> >> Several years ago when I was working on WebFinger, one of the use cases I >> presented was using WebFinger to facilitate auto-configuring email >> clients. It was and still is a problem I deal with today. >> >> For my own family, I have to manually configure several different clients >> on several different platforms for each member of the family. It's time >> consuming and really needs to be made simpler. >> >> My wife also has to deal with this issue where she works, because her >> company, while just 100 or so employees, has offices in two different >> countries and the mail server settings an employee uses depends on his or >> her geographic location. To use standard IETF protocols, it means a lot of >> manual provisioning. >> >> I see the same sort of challenges with service providers. If one wants to >> have his or her own domain, but isn't technically savvy, they're in for a >> lot of "fun" trying to figure out the various settings. Seriously, no >> normal person should have to understand what SMTP or IMAP means, and >> definitely what port numbers or security settings to fill in. >> >> While there has been a generic DNS-based method for email provision for a >> while, it doesn't work for me. It doesn't work for my wife's company, >> either. It also doesn't define everything one might need to define (e.g., >> required security settings or policies). >> >> So we put together a very simple example to show how this might be done >> with WebFinger. See the draft here: >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-webfinger-email-autoconfig-00 >> >> The example in that document should make it clear how we intend this to >> work, though the detailed procedures and syntax are missing. We first want >> to see what interest exists and if this general approach will work for >> everyone before getting into too much detail. >> >> We'd love to have some dialog on this to see how we can address this >> problem of auto-configuring email clients. >> >> Paul >> >> _______________________________________________ >> art mailing list >> art@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art >> > _______________________________________________ > art mailing list > art@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art > --000000000000b1d5e2058df6bef9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Res= ponding to Paul's point about his wife needing a country specific confi= guration, I think we need to think about this a bit differently.

This is one example of an applicati= on configuration problem and a service discovery problem. What we need here= is a scheme that is capable of supporting the general case.

It makes no sense for any of the provid= ers to change their existing schemes unless it is to move to a scheme that = is more powerful because it is more general. Which means that at minimum it= is supported by all the MUAs but ideally means it is supported by multiple= applications as well.

I = have been thinking about this problem from the other side. I started what i= s now the Mathematical Mesh trying to work out how to automatically configu= re and maintain S/MIME and OpenPGP. While doing that, I suddenly realized t= hat I could add in the SMTP configuration as well. So once Alice has config= ured her email service on one device, it is configured for them all. She wi= ll get her SUBMIT/IMAP/POP3 settings at the same time that she gets the S/M= IME and OpenPGP keys to work on the device. I showed this to Dave Clark who= asked for SSH as well (which is a real pig to configure as there is a boot= strap problem and a foul up may require someone to take a plane trip to a s= erver to fix it).

Being a= ble to replicate the config across devices does not solve the problem of in= itial acquisition of course. But the replication mechanism should certainly= use the same data structure (though translated to JSON probably).


I have not thought about the Enterprise app= lication of the Mesh in detail yet because I have to get it working for ind= ividual users first. But I am pretty sure that what we want here is single = point onboarding (and terminations).

So Alice joins example.com. = She is issued a (new) company laptop and BYOB's her mobile.=C2=A0
=

The onboarder checks the boxes= for the corporate applications she is authorized for, email, ssh, etc. and= the group encryption services for the teams she belongs to. The configulat= or then does all the rest.=C2=A0

All that remains is to connect up Alice and her devices to these co= nfigurations. Which can be done in person via QR code or remotely via a Bas= e32 fingerprint. It presents a workfactor of at least 2^112 either way.

So from Alice's point of= view, when she goes to the badge office to pick up her badge, she scans a = QR code with her phone and that is it - she is all configured for email, ch= at, slack, slick, ssh, S/MIME and all the encrypted data she needs from the= cloud. If she is working on some really sensitive stuff, her line manager = or a VP might need to meet her in person to authorize adding her to certain= groups.

Termination shou= ld mean no more than unchecking the boxes.


The cryptography I am using was discovered by Torben Pedersen and M= att Blaze in the mid 1990s. The reason it hasn't been applied was that = it was too hard to use and until Robert Snowden came along, people thought = the administrator of the key service in the cloud could be trusted. So I ha= ve made it really easy to use and administrate even in the case that we hav= e separation of duties at the administrator level as well.


On Thu, Jul 18, 2019= at 10:12 AM Paul E. Jones <paulej=3D40packetizer.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
Dave,

RFC 6186 i= s the DNS-based one to which I referred below. Unfortunately, it doesn'= t allow setting various configuration options and wouldn't work at all = for my wife's use case where employees use different mail servers based= on the country in which they reside.

Paul

From: Dave Cridland <dave@cridland.net>
Sent: July 18, 2019 4:40:41 AM EDT
To: "Paul E. Jones" <paulej@packetizer.com>
Cc: "art@ietf= .org" <art@ie= tf.org>, "webfinger@ietf.org" <webfinger@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger

Obviously I'd prefer ACAP.

But also= , please note the existence of RFC 6186. It's not widely deployed, but = if we were to open this can of worms, and not simply reuse Thunderbird'= s autoconfig XML format (which, if I recall, is also supported by various o= ther Open Source MUAs), then I'd be keen to get SRV up and running prop= erly.

Dave.

On Mon, 15 Jul 2019 at 20:31, Pau= l E. Jones <paulej=3D40packetizer.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
ART folks,

Several years ago when I was working on = WebFinger, one of the use cases I presented was using WebFinger to facilita= te auto-configuring email clients.=C2=A0 It was and still is a problem I de= al with today.

For my own family, I have to manual= ly configure several different clients on several different platforms for e= ach member of the family.=C2=A0 It's time consuming and really needs to= be made simpler.

My wife also has to deal with th= is issue where she works, because her company, while just 100 or so employe= es, has offices in two different countries and the mail server settings an = employee uses depends on his or her geographic location.=C2=A0 To use stand= ard IETF protocols, it means a lot of manual provisioning.

I see the same sort of challenges with service providers. If one w= ants to have his or her own domain, but isn't technically savvy, they&#= 39;re in for a lot of "fun" trying to figure out the various sett= ings. Seriously, no normal person should have to understand what SMTP or IM= AP means, and definitely what port numbers or security settings to fill in.=

While there has been a generic DNS-based method f= or email provision for a while, it doesn't work for me. It doesn't = work for my wife's company, either. It also doesn't define everythi= ng one might need to define (e.g., required security settings or policies).=

So we put together a very simple example to show = how this might be done with WebFinger.=C2=A0 See the draft here:

The example in that = document should make it clear how we intend this to work, though the detail= ed procedures and syntax are missing.=C2=A0 We first want to see what inter= est exists and if this general approach will work for everyone before getti= ng into too much detail.

We'd love to have som= e dialog on this to see how we can address this problem of auto-configuring= email clients.

Paul

___= ____________________________________________
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art@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art
_______________________________________________
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art@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art
--000000000000b1d5e2058df6bef9-- From nobody Thu Jul 18 11:16:32 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ECAC12064F for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:16:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=IzDrIYdf; dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=aHr9OHf3 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kbAL4cIBpLbG for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:16:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D38C812006B for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:16:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 57806 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2019 18:16:27 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; s=e1ca.5d30b77b.k1907; i=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=SL0f//b28MCzsD5CGBGTIDX4rJ1tyla7gCzaz/XoksI=; b=IzDrIYdfofhFbpz6BtE2QVX9Sau0EsvmtcZ9/FfyQLSgj5XPR7sPGdDveH8svO8PsjlLxJawNeBcah24cEHOmrHkgSe9DLU+heOUx330ULna2H6aCK2fBBJr7OYL7F9HIhYrcSCha5m6itUSfyUrcSxpSBuOuRPv2JutTuibrLXu47j/4DTeodEbanRBvqEPe2z8gyBBhI2DdEv0kI9uLN3bQVxBQ/7GZO8MdPSHoNMXaBloxLVU2heih4hbozPF DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; s=e1ca.5d30b77b.k1907; olt=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=SL0f//b28MCzsD5CGBGTIDX4rJ1tyla7gCzaz/XoksI=; b=aHr9OHf3K/G8u0ve2NtU+hGRKDC+uz/pVoSX2ZeghRZc8OWc3XAnXO5oT3lF6wc/KoOOWLJh12F8MUg/Si+xhdUJBPbNZYzPC1Fxezm7XCWpgUDgsVQCipmXYf8h1zb08dp/Esjpq4m/GgoL5Gj7Gz/dGgUpHRYxzAhf0rEHMs06fBOR8WmMDh7Y7kNAtzm9n+J6etR+Jnx+8XEPPEzg90ZSNCNMvV8VBO7qhucDt2vD5ugjJR70Edc2ahvwDj/0 Received: from localhost ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPSA (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD, johnl@iecc.com) via TCP6; 18 Jul 2019 18:16:26 -0000 Date: 18 Jul 2019 14:16:26 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R Levine" To: "Paul E. Jones" Cc: art@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <3F299649-6396-4C71-B587-D80650C22D0A@packetizer.com> References: <20190716220519.A420450758F@ary.qy> <3A04338D-CE01-4693-92AF-4AE5CB70A68F@bzfx.net> <3F299649-6396-4C71-B587-D80650C22D0A@packetizer.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.21.9999 (OSX 337 2019-05-05) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 18:16:30 -0000 > The first query in my draft is the WebFinger one where the client would receive a list of URLs to then query to get various mail server configurations. > > Using my wife's use case, the web server is maintained by a different team than the mail server. The only thing the web server team needs to know is where to direct the client for email configuration for each user, thus one static entry in WebFinger. I'd expect the team managing mail server to deal with the actual mail configuration data and any authentication requirements. As you say, it needs info for each user. I'd think that would be a problem in a place where the web and mail departments don't like to talk to each other. > The example in the draft with two addresses is to show that a single > account identifier could have multiple named email accounts behind it. I > suspect that would be unusual, but the possibility exists. If people > don't want that flexibility, we could require that only one link > relation be returned of the mail configuration type. > Does that help clarify my point? Not really. What is an "account identifier" if it's not an e-mail address, and why would an MUA need to know about it? R's, John From nobody Thu Jul 18 11:46:39 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 180D0120B3E for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:46:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QBXh03GS3EJh for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:46:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sdaoden.eu (sdaoden.eu [217.144.132.164]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B83E712006B for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:46:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sdaoden.eu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9CDB116057; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 20:46:32 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 20:46:32 +0200 From: Steffen Nurpmeso To: Arnt Gulbrandsen Cc: art@ietf.org Message-ID: <20190718184632.a4kqY%steffen@sdaoden.eu> In-Reply-To: <9c6cde19-be14-4d13-9194-eff01770a61e@gulbrandsen.priv.no> References: <20190717154133.928D850B9EE@ary.qy> <20190717223114.cO5Om%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20190718051756.130D5510A29@ary.local> <9c6cde19-be14-4d13-9194-eff01770a61e@gulbrandsen.priv.no> Mail-Followup-To: Arnt Gulbrandsen , art@ietf.org User-Agent: s-nail v14.9.13-132-g2b425bda OpenPGP: id=EE19E1C1F2F7054F8D3954D8308964B51883A0DD; url=https://ftp.sdaoden.eu/steffen.asc; preference=signencrypt BlahBlahBlah: Any stupid boy can crush a beetle. But all the professors in the world can make no bugs. Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 18:46:38 -0000 Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote in <9c6cde19-be14-4d13-9194-eff01770a61e@gulbrand\ sen.priv.no>: |On Thursday 18 July 2019 07:17:55 CEST, John Levine wrote: |>> In the end i will have to implement actions aka "clickable" URLs |>> for a text-mode mail reader. |> |> I don't understand that at all. Why would you need to do that? | |It sounds as if Steffen hasn't looked at Thunderbird autoconfiguration, at |all, and is arguing that something else would be bad. | |BTW, Thunderbird is unlikely to be the only client that uses its scheme. |The relevant stack overflow questions overwhelmingly point to the |Thunderbird scheme. | |https://stackoverflow.com/search?q=%5Bimap%5D+autoconfiguration |https://stackoverflow.com/search?q=%5Bmail%5D+autoconfiguration The final pages [1] and [2] would benefit from an update, to me direct TLS connection via POP3S/SUBMISSIONS etc. are not "old-style", but i personally prefer them over STARTTLS/STLS etc. Also "remove the following and leave to client/user?" and "" i would like to know the final outcome of before possibly writing code and having the need to start linking against expat in order to get this stuff right. I personally fail to see the value in not making that a plain UTF-8-by-definition text file in Windows resource file format, maybe [section.subsection] or [section/subsection] so to group the key/value pairs, and # comments. It has to be XML / JSON / CBOR. (I would go for the latter two if plain text is not feasible. That is a ~500 line C code parser at maximum, which does not count for such a feature, especially in a codebase like Thunderbird.) Please support authentication with CRAM-MD5. It is simple to implement, and to set up, and you can still use RADIUS or a database that stores passwords in plaintext, so you don't need ... As an ISP, you should ideally store passwords in encrypted format, which removes the risk of mass password theft (and possibly reuse on other sites) if somebody hacks your servers. You can still support plaintext passwords in this case, It is often wise to reiterate things in public! Please do not store the passwords on a server that is exposed to the internet, get it from an internal server via TCP/TLS or whatever; maybe the internal service could require a client certificate before responding, that would be nice. (I am not an administrator, i really lack that much of knowledge for being a good one even, but i became a bit frightened.) [1] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Thunderbird/Autoconfiguration/FileFormat/HowTo [2] https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird:Autoconfiguration:ConfigFileFormat So many things are moving to .well-known now. If this here passes, then maybe S/MIME certificates via .well-known are not that far away, too. (My German passport does not offer any keys or certificates for digital credentials, which is very sad.) Personally i do not understand why this cannot be in DNS. I have seen SRV being brought up, and isn't that exactly the information that DNS is designed for? And all the best to your wife, Mr. Cridland! --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) From nobody Thu Jul 18 12:06:05 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C23D1205CC for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 12:06:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Tv7ZX8-bRQ37 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 12:06:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sdaoden.eu (sdaoden.eu [217.144.132.164]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 17831120112 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 12:06:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sdaoden.eu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9928516057; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 21:06:00 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 21:05:59 +0200 From: Steffen Nurpmeso To: "John Levine" Cc: art@ietf.org Message-ID: <20190718190559.kLTGt%steffen@sdaoden.eu> In-Reply-To: <20190718051756.130D5510A29@ary.local> References: <20190718051756.130D5510A29@ary.local> Mail-Followup-To: "John Levine" , art@ietf.org User-Agent: s-nail v14.9.13-132-g2b425bda OpenPGP: id=EE19E1C1F2F7054F8D3954D8308964B51883A0DD; url=https://ftp.sdaoden.eu/steffen.asc; preference=signencrypt BlahBlahBlah: Any stupid boy can crush a beetle. But all the professors in the world can make no bugs. Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 19:06:04 -0000 I did not want to be unfriendly by not responding to you! John Levine wrote in <20190718051756.130D5510A29@ary.local>: |In article <20190717223114.cO5Om%steffen@sdaoden.eu> you write: |>|>> Plan A: if the server needs the user name and password, it sends back |>|>> a 401 response and the MUA sends them via RFC 7617 basic |>|>> authentication. That seems largely backward compatible and invents a |>|>> minimum of new stuff. |> |>Just yesterday i (currently implementing OAUTHBEARER for a BSD |>Mail clone) thought how easy it would be if the OAUTHBEARER |>request would have additional fields, like refresh-token etc. | |I believe you, but as I may have said once or twice before, my |proposal is intended to be a compatible extension of the autoconfig |that the most popular open source MUA already has. The pages which describe the feature seem to have been patched together wildly over the years. As they are now they do not put confidence in what should really be done (to an extend). |>|One of the reasons Mozilla checks https://autoconfig./ is \ |>|exactly \ |>|this: |>|it lets the mail department run a small special purpose web server \ |>|separate from the main web servers. |> |>I will never understand where the benefit of turning mail clients |>into fully blown browsers actually is. | |I don't see how this follows. In both of these proposals, the MUA makes |a few HTTP requests and then gets a blob of XML or JSON. That skips \ |the 95% |of browsers that render HTML. (We'll ignore the detail that modern \ |MUAs all |have that 95% anyway to render HTML mail.) Ok, yes, simply talking a minimal set of HTTP in order to get automatic configuration would really be easy to do; parsing the answers could require an additional library, for the MUA i maintain. I personally would prefer seeing this in the DNS, but since everything seems to move into .well-known, this is a target as valid as everything else. |>Are you trying to enforce code reuse of anyway linked-in web kits, |>otherwise i do not know. | |No, I'm trying to make it backward compatible with existing MUAs. | |>In the end i will have to implement actions aka "clickable" URLs |>for a text-mode mail reader. | |I don't understand that at all. Why would you need to do that? You are of course right, this does not follow at all. And, for one i definitely need to find a solution for such anyway; and second the ConfigFileFormat Wiki indeed mentions form input fields, except that this is declared "not yet supported" in an accompanying comment. (But the latter could simply be prompts in a console based UI, of course.) --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) From nobody Thu Jul 18 15:16:45 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10597120130 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 15:16:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.496 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.496 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=dmfs.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F4omYQpUqHTj for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 15:16:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailrelay2-1.pub.mailoutpod1-cph3.one.com (mailrelay2-1.pub.mailoutpod1-cph3.one.com [46.30.210.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0101612012B for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 15:16:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dmfs.org; s=20140924; h=content-type:in-reply-to:mime-version:date:message-id:from:references:to: subject:from; bh=HZCZgwlhIJQDHHZj5zBSQI4QcSJ8fi1c0vTTZQelJU8=; b=D4ysYWYuijskgLoSLQXl4d1TcZtUBciVjeE4HjHOwInT8h9VRzOYxOd4aWcfV9hzEKus0G1HVUUHa fPO5AqIcAnvKtUynNyKqMKh363biO+0lOSTq+SL4RAqptmYO6MMNkdh2Pzm7gPRDQLCfpOxWaaNmT9 HP0RgW/3DyKc36AU= X-HalOne-Cookie: dcb94853b26ccafa761a9c2e31419fd6f074eb44 X-HalOne-ID: b527c630-a9a9-11e9-b9fd-d0431ea8a290 Received: from smtp.dmfs.org (unknown [2003:f6:af3f:af00:201:2eff:fe40:2624]) by mailrelay2.pub.mailoutpod1-cph3.one.com (Halon) with ESMTPSA id b527c630-a9a9-11e9-b9fd-d0431ea8a290; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 22:16:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: from boss.localdomain (89-64-62-85.dynamic.chello.pl [89.64.62.85]) by smtp.dmfs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 38E8C1C5 for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 00:16:36 +0200 (CEST) To: "art@ietf.org" References: <1b042605-4b3a-40b7-a792-2390c924282f@www.fastmail.com> From: Marten Gajda Message-ID: Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 00:16:33 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1b042605-4b3a-40b7-a792-2390c924282f@www.fastmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------AF47F3D3ABA55F26AA0042A4" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 22:16:44 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------AF47F3D3ABA55F26AA0042A4 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------FD7AC54648FE91F709077167" --------------FD7AC54648FE91F709077167 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit As a client developer, I want to provide a smooth UX to our users. This means I need much more information than just a server URL. For instance, I also want to * present the name or logo of the provider which hosts the user's account, ideally before they enter their credentials, * provide links to support channels, reset password pages, account management, * know the OAuth endpoints, if available, * know the OpenID Connect endpoints, so I can register my OAuth client dynamically, * know the OAuth scope tokens I need in order to access a service, * know which endpoints serve the same data via different protocols, * know *all* the available services (not just the ones I know about), so I can suggest other clients which may be useful. We had a few more discussion items at https://github.com/CalConnect/AUTODISCOVERY/issues One of the initial ideas was to have the accounts managed by the operating system and data access/synchronization handled by individual applications. In this scenario, the operating system would provide the UI to configure an account and perform the service discovery. Afterwards it would delegate the service configuration along with the account identifier to the applications which can handle the services found. If the provider offers services for which no application is present on the system, it could suggest suitable applications from the app store or software repository. The operating system could rerun the service discovery from time to time and notify the user about changes (e.g. "Your provider XYZ now supports chatting, here are the applications you can use: ..."). I don't see this as a use case for WebFinger though. The services offered by a provider is not user data (although they may vary for each users), it's primarily provider data. As such, I'd prefer to provide a single JSON document at a well-known URL under the provider's domain, e.g. at "/.well-known/services". This would make it trivial to host a static document, which would do the trick in most setups. More complex providers could still return per-user configurations (after authentication). The attached example shows how a document might look like as per the current status. Cheers, Marten Am 16.07.19 um 07:22 schrieb Bron Gondwana: > On Tue, Jul 16, 2019, at 05:31, Paul E. Jones wrote: >> ART folks, >> >> Several years ago when I was working on WebFinger, one of the use >> cases I presented was using WebFinger to facilitate auto-configuring >> email clients.  It was and still is a problem I deal with today. >> >> For my own family, I have to manually configure several different >> clients on several different platforms for each member of the family. >>  It's time consuming and really needs to be made simpler. >> >> My wife also has to deal with this issue where she works, because her >> company, while just 100 or so employees, has offices in two different >> countries and the mail server settings an employee uses depends on >> his or her geographic location.  To use standard IETF protocols, it >> means a lot of manual provisioning. >> >> I see the same sort of challenges with service providers. If one >> wants to have his or her own domain, but isn't technically savvy, >> they're in for a lot of "fun" trying to figure out the various >> settings. Seriously, no normal person should have to understand what >> SMTP or IMAP means, and definitely what port numbers or security >> settings to fill in. >> >> While there has been a generic DNS-based method for email provision >> for a while, it doesn't work for me. It doesn't work for my wife's >> company, either. It also doesn't define everything one might need to >> define (e.g., required security settings or policies). >> >> So we put together a very simple example to show how this might be >> done with WebFinger.  See the draft here: >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-webfinger-email-autoconfig-00 > > There's also been discussion about doing the same thing for caldav and > carddav in CalConnect, which was led by Marten. It would be good to > combine this work! > > Cheers, > > Bron. > > --  >   Bron Gondwana >   brong@fastmail.fm > > -- Marten Gajda CEO dmfs GmbH Schandauer Straße 34 01309 Dresden GERMANY phone: +49 177 4427167 email: marten@dmfs.org Managing Director: Marten Gajda Registered address: Dresden Registered No.: AG Dresden HRB 34881 VAT Reg. No.: DE303248743 --------------FD7AC54648FE91F709077167 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

As a client developer, I want to provide a smooth UX to our users. This means I need much more information than just a server URL.

For instance, I also want to

* present the name or logo of the provider which hosts the user's account, ideally before they enter their credentials,
* provide links to support channels, reset password pages, account management,
* know the OAuth endpoints, if available,
* know the OpenID Connect endpoints, so I can register my OAuth client dynamically,
* know the OAuth scope tokens I need in order to access a service,
* know which endpoints serve the same data via different protocols,
* know *all* the available services (not just the ones I know about), so I can suggest other clients which may be useful.

We had a few more discussion items at https://github.com/CalConnect/AUTODISCOVERY/issues

One of the initial ideas was to have the accounts managed by the operating system and data access/synchronization handled by individual applications. In this scenario, the operating system would provide the UI to configure an account and perform the service discovery. Afterwards it would delegate the service configuration along with the account identifier to the applications which can handle the services found. If the provider offers services for which no application is present on the system, it could suggest suitable applications from the app store or software repository. The operating system could rerun the service discovery from time to time and notify the user about changes (e.g. "Your provider XYZ now supports chatting, here are the applications you can use: ...").

I don't see this as a use case for WebFinger though. The services offered by a provider is not user data (although they may vary for each users), it's primarily provider data. As such, I'd prefer to provide a single JSON document at a well-known URL under the provider's domain, e.g. at "/.well-known/services". This would make it trivial to host a static document, which would do the trick in most setups. More complex providers could still return per-user configurations (after authentication).

The attached example shows how a document might look like as per the current status.

Cheers,

Marten



Am 16.07.19 um 07:22 schrieb Bron Gondwana:
On Tue, Jul 16, 2019, at 05:31, Paul E. Jones wrote:
ART folks,

Several years ago when I was working on WebFinger, one of the use cases I presented was using WebFinger to facilitate auto-configuring email clients.  It was and still is a problem I deal with today.

For my own family, I have to manually configure several different clients on several different platforms for each member of the family.  It's time consuming and really needs to be made simpler.

My wife also has to deal with this issue where she works, because her company, while just 100 or so employees, has offices in two different countries and the mail server settings an employee uses depends on his or her geographic location.  To use standard IETF protocols, it means a lot of manual provisioning.

I see the same sort of challenges with service providers. If one wants to have his or her own domain, but isn't technically savvy, they're in for a lot of "fun" trying to figure out the various settings. Seriously, no normal person should have to understand what SMTP or IMAP means, and definitely what port numbers or security settings to fill in.

While there has been a generic DNS-based method for email provision for a while, it doesn't work for me. It doesn't work for my wife's company, either. It also doesn't define everything one might need to define (e.g., required security settings or policies).

So we put together a very simple example to show how this might be done with WebFinger.  See the draft here:

There's also been discussion about doing the same thing for caldav and carddav in CalConnect, which was led by Marten. It would be good to combine this work!

Cheers,

Bron.

-- 
  Bron Gondwana
  brong@fastmail.fm


-- 
Marten Gajda
CEO

dmfs GmbH
Schandauer Straße 34
01309 Dresden
GERMANY

phone: +49 177 4427167
email: marten@dmfs.org

Managing Director: Marten Gajda
Registered address: Dresden
Registered No.: AG Dresden HRB 34881
VAT Reg. No.: DE303248743
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Jones" To: "John R Levine" Cc: art@ietf.org Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 00:41:02 +0000 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <20190716220519.A420450758F@ary.qy> <3A04338D-CE01-4693-92AF-4AE5CB70A68F@bzfx.net> <3F299649-6396-4C71-B587-D80650C22D0A@packetizer.com> Reply-To: "Paul E. Jones" User-Agent: eM_Client/7.2.35595.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 00:41:12 -0000 John, >>The first query in my draft is the WebFinger one where the client would r= eceive a list of URLs to then query to get various mail server configuratio= ns. >> >>Using my wife's use case, the web server is maintained by a different tea= m than the mail server. The only thing the web server team needs to know is = where to direct the client for email configuration for each user, thus one = static entry in WebFinger. I'd expect the team managing mail server to de= al with the actual mail configuration data and any authentication requireme= nts. > >As you say, it needs info for each user. I'd think that would be a proble= m in a place where the web and mail departments don't like to talk to each= other. I did not mean to suggest they will not talk, but it's always best to=20 minimize touch points, as coordination can be difficult. I've found that=20 particularly true with larger companies, but I suspect that's why so=20 many just use Outlook and Exchange. >>The example in the draft with two addresses is to show that a single acco= unt identifier could have multiple named email accounts behind it. I suspec= t that would be unusual, but the possibility exists. If people don't want t= hat flexibility, we could require that only one link relation be returned o= f the mail configuration type. > >>Does that help clarify my point? > >Not really. What is an "account identifier" if it's not an e-mail address= , and why would an MUA need to know about it? That's a WebFinger thing. When querying a WebFinger server, you ask it=20 "tell me about acct:paulej@packetizer.com", for example. The account=20 identifier looks like an email address, but doesn't fully conform to the=20 syntax of an email address. It would for 99% of the users out there, I=20 suspect, but somebody somewhere might still use some UUCP-style=20 addresses. WebFinger would still work for that, as the account ID would=20 be different from the email address. That's why I put the email address=20 into the mail server config JSON document. Paul From nobody Thu Jul 18 18:00:47 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FE00120168 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 18:00:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=packetizer.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HUF8J9oHbXyg for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 18:00:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dublin.packetizer.com (dublin.packetizer.com [IPv6:2600:1f18:24d6:2e01:e842:9b2b:72a2:d2c6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C1051120165 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 18:00:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from authuser (localhost [127.0.0.1]) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=packetizer.com; s=dublin; t=1563498038; bh=4fZRXyHJEhueig93YFOn+TCVTIZ+m/Ghf2M5N5ypqQ8=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References:Reply-To; b=Z96aS74uVs9z5m5iF4uZt1Cycck5lH0J7bYhBoNiTYgDhC9infoYFyN+CcYayqZzS 3O6i2ZHV5+Ob5QbveZvzjMZbMWxLRasGyU9xk73yjPz9621gqEbh3syq6OqbEzXm+4 R2rNazwNE/3EuIKPg5w+WR7Gk6KHzSaU478mKgtQ= From: "Paul E. Jones" To: "Marten Gajda" , "art@ietf.org" Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 01:00:34 +0000 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <1b042605-4b3a-40b7-a792-2390c924282f@www.fastmail.com> Reply-To: "Paul E. Jones" User-Agent: eM_Client/7.2.35595.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------=_MB84047425-E7A4-4954-BAC2-BF870EB2EC88" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 01:00:46 -0000 --------=_MB84047425-E7A4-4954-BAC2-BF870EB2EC88 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Marten, It doesn't even require much complexity before we need user-specific=20 data. I hate mentioning my wife's use-case again, but it is valid and I=20 suspect her small company isn't the only one. Some users use services=20 on one SMTP and IMAP server in one country, and other users use those=20 services in another country. The data is stored in those respective=20 countries, too, and never moved between countries, with the exception=20 that the mail server for all incoming mail will forward to the server in=20 the appropriate geography for the user. If you're suggesting that the initial query for the "services.json" file=20 may prompt for credentials and allow to server different JSON documents=20 based on the user requesting, good. That would work. Paul ------ Original Message ------ From: "Marten Gajda" To: "art@ietf.org" Sent: 7/18/2019 6:16:33 PM Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger >As a client developer, I want to provide a smooth UX to our users. This=20 >means I need much more information than just a server URL. > >For instance, I also want to > >* present the name or logo of the provider which hosts the user's=20 >account, ideally before they enter their credentials, >* provide links to support channels, reset password pages, account=20 >management, >* know the OAuth endpoints, if available, >* know the OpenID Connect endpoints, so I can register my OAuth client=20 >dynamically, >* know the OAuth scope tokens I need in order to access a service, >* know which endpoints serve the same data via different protocols, >* know *all* the available services (not just the ones I know about),=20 >so I can suggest other clients which may be useful. > >We had a few more discussion items at=20 >https://github.com/CalConnect/AUTODISCOVERY/issues > >One of the initial ideas was to have the accounts managed by the=20 >operating system and data access/synchronization handled by individual=20 >applications. In this scenario, the operating system would provide the=20 >UI to configure an account and perform the service discovery.=20 >Afterwards it would delegate the service configuration along with the=20 >account identifier to the applications which can handle the services=20 >found. If the provider offers services for which no application is=20 >present on the system, it could suggest suitable applications from the=20 >app store or software repository. The operating system could rerun the=20 >service discovery from time to time and notify the user about changes=20 >(e.g. "Your proviare the applications you can use: ..."). > >I don't see this as a use case for WebFinger though. The services=20 >offered by a provider is not user data (although they may vary for each=20 >users), it's primarily provider data. As such, I'd prefer to provide a=20 >single JSON document at a well-known URL under the provider's domain,=20 >e.g. at "/.well-known/services". This would make it trivial to host a=20 >static document, which would do the trick in most setups. More complex=20 >providers could still return per-user configurations (after=20 >authentication). > >The attached example shows how a document might look like as per the=20 >current status. > >Cheers, > >Marten > > > > > >Am 16.07.19 um 07:22 schrieb Bron Gondwana: >>On Tue, Jul 16, 2019, at 05:31, Paul E. Jones wrote: >>>ART folks, >>> >>>Several years ago when I was working on WebFinger, one of the use=20 >>>cases I presented was using WebFinger to facilitate auto-configuring=20 >>>email clients. It was and still is a problem I deal with today. >>> >>>For my own family, I have to manually configure several different=20 >>>clients on several different platforms for each member of the family.=20 >>> It's time consuming and really needs to be made simpler. >>> >>>My wife also has to deal with this issue where she works, because her=20 >>>company, while just 100 or so employees, has offices in two different=20 >>>countries and the mail server settings an employee uses depends on=20 >>>his or her geographic location. To use standard IETF protocols, it=20 >>>means a lot of manual provisioning. >>> >>>I see the same sort of challenges with service providers. If one=20 >>>wants to have his or her own domain, but isn't technically savvy,=20 >>>they're in for a lot of "fun" trying to figure out the various=20 >>>settings. Seriously, no normal person should have to understand what=20 >>>SMTP or IMAP means, and definitely what port numbers or security=20 >>>settings to fill in. >>> >>>While there has been a generic DNS-based method for email provision=20 >>>for a while, it doesn't work for me. It doesn't work for my wife's=20 >>>company, either. It also doesn't define everything one might need to=20 >>>define (e.g., required security settings or policies). >>> >>>So we put together a very simple example to show how this might be=20 >>>done with WebFinger. See the draft here: >>>https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-webfinger-email-autoconfig-00 >> >>There's also been discussion about doing the same thing for caldav and=20 >>carddav in CalConnect, which was led by Marten. It would be good to=20 >>combine this work! >> >>Cheers, >> >>Bron. >> >>-- >> Bron Gondwana >> brong@fastmail.fm >> >> >-- >Marten Gajda >CEO > >dmfs GmbH >Schandauer Stra=C3=9Fe 34 >01309 Dresden >GERMANY > >phone: +49 177 4427167 >email: marten@dmfs.org > >Managing Director: Marten Gajda >Registered address: Dresden >Registered No.: AG Dresden HRB 34881 >VAT Reg. No.: DE303248743 --------=_MB84047425-E7A4-4954-BAC2-BF870EB2EC88 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20
Marten,

It doesn't even require muc= h complexity before we need user-specific data. I hate mentioning my wife's = use-case again, but it is valid and I suspect her small company isn't the= only one. =C2=A0Some users use services on one SMTP and IMAP server in one= country, and other users use those services in another country. =C2=A0The d= ata is stored in those respective countries, too, and never moved between c= ountries, with the exception that the mail server for all incoming mail wil= l forward to the server in the appropriate geography for the user.

If you're suggesting that the initial query for the "ser= vices.json" file may prompt for credentials and allow to server different J= SON documents based on the user requesting, good. That would work.

Paul

------ Original Message ------
From: "Marten Gajda" <marten@dmf= s.org>
To: "art@ietf.org" <art@ietf.org>
Sent: 7/18/2019 6:16:33 PM
Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger
<= div>

As a client developer, I want to provide a smooth UX to our users. This means I need much more information than just a server URL.

For instance, I also want to

* present the name or logo of the provider which hosts the user's account, ideally before they enter their credentials,
* provide links to support channels, reset password pages, account management,
* know the OAuth endpoints, if available,
* know the OpenID Connect endpoints, so I can register my OAuth client dynamically,
* know the OAuth scope tokens I need in order to access a service,
* know which endpoints serve the same data via different protocols,
* know *all* the available services (not just the ones I know about), so I can suggest other clients which may be useful.

We had a few more discussion items at https://github.com/CalConnect/AUTODISCOVERY/issue= s

One of the initial ideas was to have the accounts managed by the operating system and data access/synchronization handled by individual applications. In this scenario, the operating system would provide the UI to configure an account and perform the service discovery. Afterwards it would delegate the service configuration along with the account identifier to the applications which can handle the services found. If the provider offers services for which no application is present on the system, it could suggest suitable applications from the app store or software repository. The operating system could rerun the service discovery from time to time and notify the user about changes (e.g. "Your proviare the applications you can use: ...").

I don't see this as a use case for WebFinger though. The services offered by a provider is not user data (although they may vary for each users), it's primarily provider data. As such, I'd prefer to provide a single JSON document at a well-known URL under the provider's domain, e.g. at "/.well-known/services". This would make it trivial to host a static document, which would do the trick in most setups. More complex providers could still return per-user configurations (after authentication).

The attached example shows how a document might look like as per the current status.

Cheers,

Marten



Am 16.07.19 um 07:22 schrieb Bron Gondwana:
=20
On Tue, Jul 16, 2019, at 05:31, Paul E. Jones wrote:
ART folks,

Several years ago when I was working on WebFinger, one of the use cases I presented was using WebFinger to facilitate auto-configuring email clients. =C2=A0It was and still is a probl= em I deal with today.

For my own family, I have to manually configure several different clients on several different platforms for each member of the family. =C2=A0It's time consuming and really needs= to be made simpler.

My wife also has to deal with this issue where she works, because her company, while just 100 or so employees, has offices in two different countries and the mail server settings an employee uses depends on his or her geographic location. =C2=A0To use standard IETF protocols, it means a lot of manual provisioning.

I see the same sort of challenges with service providers. If one wants to have his or her own domain, but isn't technically savvy, they're in for a lot of "fun" trying to figure out the various settings. Seriously, no normal person should have to understand what SMTP or IMAP means, and definitely what port numbers or security settings to fill in.

While there has been a generic DNS-based method for email provision for a while, it doesn't work for me. It doesn't work for my wife's company, either. It also doesn't define everything one might need to define (e.g., required security settings or policies).

So we put together a very simple example to show how this might be done with WebFinger. =C2=A0See the draft here:

There's also been discussion about doing the same thing for caldav and carddav in CalConnect, which was led by Marten. It would be good to combine this work!

Cheers,

Bron.

--=C2=A0
=C2=A0 Bron Gondwana
=C2=A0 brong@fastmail.fm


--=20
Marten Gajda
CEO

dmfs GmbH
Schandauer Stra=C3=9Fe 34
01309 Dresden
GERMANY

phone: +49 177 4427167
email: marten@dmfs.org

Managing Director: Marten Gajda
Registered address: Dresden
Registered No.: AG Dresden HRB 34881
VAT Reg. No.: DE303248743
--------=_MB84047425-E7A4-4954-BAC2-BF870EB2EC88-- From nobody Thu Jul 18 18:48:36 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFCA0120044 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 18:48:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=urhDz4cg; dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=dkZtuPID Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z5qBJYhUSow1 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 18:48:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A847D12002E for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 18:48:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 46949 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2019 01:48:30 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; s=b763.5d31216e.k1907; i=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=zb4OCKF3cpQLzheII11qKe9xisKZTrzxaZzo9uTJwFM=; b=urhDz4cgaUwRqjfXskFJuokLHi7JpxoSFFylR3ljj/AcYRIXIoLpwGm8z8R7Lh3e8gJQJ6zC6ZH7T2E7qyLiPxVFQQzLDJhmfDO9MikgQKzXotccZTQUvlWidn7retDc1mvBMOaCdN22Ye+aGrP/MB1huCKQMUOL4LplyPamS00mAUo4snrGCq8FTrpkv839wyrLuYTaiwQuu81ksAjFd7NgQg5d6bN4yuDaKUPiv61jol4ClXKNC3WopSm1ZIyX DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; s=b763.5d31216e.k1907; olt=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=zb4OCKF3cpQLzheII11qKe9xisKZTrzxaZzo9uTJwFM=; b=dkZtuPID14M4xXZ8nvjj6en81/Z42jph8QiIBbXrRhBOFm7IDm5xQ/dilnjAaQhxCcAWZOlvAPMYU6jpsR6wAsqWym7zAiqNjzUNBH7mWsMdU4oSE6ygqs6R8pfqqDODyJJhanXR1cGc7rDARY5xSQZXOdMp91JjXKdEzwkkvB6rCAFFHcg4KItQpiahVDQtShrmonIUGQbEISHWpAQ/Q5eStx/r/i/cmKTK6Pr4rrOFn1pPORKu4BewY8a52Epy Received: from localhost ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPSA (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD, johnl@iecc.com) via TCP6; 19 Jul 2019 01:48:30 -0000 Date: 18 Jul 2019 21:48:29 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R Levine" To: "Paul E. Jones" Cc: art@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <20190716220519.A420450758F@ary.qy> <3A04338D-CE01-4693-92AF-4AE5CB70A68F@bzfx.net> <3F299649-6396-4C71-B587-D80650C22D0A@packetizer.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.21.9999 (OSX 337 2019-05-05) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 01:48:35 -0000 > I did not mean to suggest they will not talk, but it's always best to > minimize touch points, as coordination can be difficult. I've found that > particularly true with larger companies, but I suspect that's why so many > just use Outlook and Exchange. Yes indeed. That's why the Mozilla design lets the mail people run their own server so they don't have to talk at all if they don't want to. > email address. It would for 99% of the users out there, I suspect, but > somebody somewhere might still use some UUCP-style addresses. As an old uucp user (ima!johnl) I can assure you that UUCP and every other non RFC 822 mail address scheme is dead dead dead. There may be some uucp transport lurking but there's no bangs in the addresses. Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From nobody Fri Jul 19 00:25:00 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8AB9120025 for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 00:24:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.497 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.497 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=dmfs.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tmFochZzP-sh for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 00:24:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailrelay3-1.pub.mailoutpod1-cph3.one.com (mailrelay3-1.pub.mailoutpod1-cph3.one.com [46.30.210.184]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4D83E12000E for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 00:24:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dmfs.org; s=20140924; h=content-type:in-reply-to:mime-version:date:message-id:from:references:to: subject:from; bh=kefTBqr+azT2L7WhIYKRMfF8xs8pDJADqLNUHf3r2kA=; b=flvOJvTQBQMRj4AHDXreyDfOouzO2w/c2nKy/ZEJh/N024L/TDMGOE6NHh9VhtrUeGhYXjkWJptyq zYCnME2j734KBSW8y/qvcQL3EsGehSs7gagTagKA+ihND2rvVGJ6txhv4KY/LF0F7YwC0QhWqq+EBP 7STm81afuWEcu+8k= X-HalOne-Cookie: ef6a20a3f70281ae1e0406d70fd0cdfbe81733f1 X-HalOne-ID: 4bfaa9ec-a9f6-11e9-b5ed-d0431ea8bb03 Received: from smtp.dmfs.org (unknown [79.254.14.231]) by mailrelay3.pub.mailoutpod1-cph3.one.com (Halon) with ESMTPSA id 4bfaa9ec-a9f6-11e9-b5ed-d0431ea8bb03; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 07:24:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from boss.localdomain (89-64-62-85.dynamic.chello.pl [89.64.62.85]) by smtp.dmfs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E90C6377; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 09:24:50 +0200 (CEST) To: "Paul E. Jones" , "art@ietf.org" References: <1b042605-4b3a-40b7-a792-2390c924282f@www.fastmail.com> From: Marten Gajda Message-ID: <0639c891-61fe-2614-5bf6-5b71b09e06df@dmfs.org> Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 09:24:48 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------FFD8D50B023AFE5D9B146CB3" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 07:24:59 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------FFD8D50B023AFE5D9B146CB3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Am 19.07.19 um 03:00 schrieb Paul E. Jones: > > If you're suggesting that the initial query for the "services.json" > file may prompt for credentials and allow to server different JSON > documents based on the user requesting, good. That would work. Yes, that's exactly what I'm suggesting. In fact, the driver behind the original draft was a company which had a setup similar to your wife's company. They had offices in the US and in Europe and their employee's user accounts where hosted in their respective locations. We need to bootstrap authentication though (e.g. to support OAuth and provide links to support and account management sites). My suggestion would be to serve a redacted services.json to unauthenticated users which doesn't contain user specific service entries and add a flag indicating that you need to authenticate to get the entire set of data. Marten > Paul > > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "Marten Gajda" > > To: "art@ietf.org" > > Sent: 7/18/2019 6:16:33 PM > Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger > >> As a client developer, I want to provide a smooth UX to our users. >> This means I need much more information than just a server URL. >> >> For instance, I also want to >> >> * present the name or logo of the provider which hosts the user's >> account, ideally before they enter their credentials, >> * provide links to support channels, reset password pages, account >> management, >> * know the OAuth endpoints, if available, >> * know the OpenID Connect endpoints, so I can register my OAuth >> client dynamically, >> * know the OAuth scope tokens I need in order to access a service, >> * know which endpoints serve the same data via different protocols, >> * know *all* the available services (not just the ones I know about), >> so I can suggest other clients which may be useful. >> >> We had a few more discussion items at >> https://github.com/CalConnect/AUTODISCOVERY/issues >> >> One of the initial ideas was to have the accounts managed by the >> operating system and data access/synchronization handled by >> individual applications. In this scenario, the operating system would >> provide the UI to configure an account and perform the service >> discovery. Afterwards it would delegate the service configuration >> along with the account identifier to the applications which can >> handle the services found. If the provider offers services for which >> no application is present on the system, it could suggest suitable >> applications from the app store or software repository. The operating >> system could rerun the service discovery from time to time and notify >> the user about changes (e.g. "Your proviare the applications you can >> use: ..."). >> >> I don't see this as a use case for WebFinger though. The services >> offered by a provider is not user data (although they may vary for >> each users), it's primarily provider data. As such, I'd prefer to >> provide a single JSON document at a well-known URL under the >> provider's domain, e.g. at "/.well-known/services". This would make >> it trivial to host a static document, which would do the trick in >> most setups. More complex providers could still return per-user >> configurations (after authentication). >> >> The attached example shows how a document might look like as per the >> current status. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Marten >> >> >> >> Am 16.07.19 um 07:22 schrieb Bron Gondwana: >>> On Tue, Jul 16, 2019, at 05:31, Paul E. Jones wrote: >>>> ART folks, >>>> >>>> Several years ago when I was working on WebFinger, one of the use >>>> cases I presented was using WebFinger to facilitate >>>> auto-configuring email clients.  It was and still is a problem I >>>> deal with today. >>>> >>>> For my own family, I have to manually configure several different >>>> clients on several different platforms for each member of the >>>> family.  It's time consuming and really needs to be made simpler. >>>> >>>> My wife also has to deal with this issue where she works, because >>>> her company, while just 100 or so employees, has offices in two >>>> different countries and the mail server settings an employee uses >>>> depends on his or her geographic location.  To use standard IETF >>>> protocols, it means a lot of manual provisioning. >>>> >>>> I see the same sort of challenges with service providers. If one >>>> wants to have his or her own domain, but isn't technically savvy, >>>> they're in for a lot of "fun" trying to figure out the various >>>> settings. Seriously, no normal person should have to understand >>>> what SMTP or IMAP means, and definitely what port numbers or >>>> security settings to fill in. >>>> >>>> While there has been a generic DNS-based method for email provision >>>> for a while, it doesn't work for me. It doesn't work for my wife's >>>> company, either. It also doesn't define everything one might need >>>> to define (e.g., required security settings or policies). >>>> >>>> So we put together a very simple example to show how this might be >>>> done with WebFinger.  See the draft here: >>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-webfinger-email-autoconfig-00 >>> >>> There's also been discussion about doing the same thing for caldav >>> and carddav in CalConnect, which was led by Marten. It would be good >>> to combine this work! >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Bron. >>> >>> --  >>>   Bron Gondwana >>>   brong@fastmail.fm >>> >>> >> -- >> Marten Gajda >> CEO >> >> dmfs GmbH >> Schandauer Straße 34 >> 01309 Dresden >> GERMANY >> >> phone: +49 177 4427167 >> email: marten@dmfs.org >> >> Managing Director: Marten Gajda >> Registered address: Dresden >> Registered No.: AG Dresden HRB 34881 >> VAT Reg. No.: DE303248743 -- Marten Gajda CEO dmfs GmbH Schandauer Straße 34 01309 Dresden GERMANY phone: +49 177 4427167 email: marten@dmfs.org Managing Director: Marten Gajda Registered address: Dresden Registered No.: AG Dresden HRB 34881 VAT Reg. No.: DE303248743 --------------FFD8D50B023AFE5D9B146CB3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


Am 19.07.19 um 03:00 schrieb Paul E. Jones:

If you're suggesting that the initial query for the "services.json" file may prompt for credentials and allow to server different JSON documents based on the user requesting, good. That would work.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm suggesting. In fact, the driver behind the original draft was a company which had a setup similar to your wife's company. They had offices in the US and in Europe and their employee's user accounts where hosted in their respective locations.

We need to bootstrap authentication though (e.g. to support OAuth and provide links to support and account management sites). My suggestion would be to serve a redacted services.json to unauthenticated users which doesn't contain user specific service entries and add a flag indicating that you need to authenticate to get the entire set of data.

Marten

Paul

------ Original Message ------
From: "Marten Gajda" <marten@dmfs.org>
Sent: 7/18/2019 6:16:33 PM
Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger

As a client developer, I want to provide a smooth UX to our users. This means I need much more information than just a server URL.

For instance, I also want to

* present the name or logo of the provider which hosts the user's account, ideally before they enter their credentials,
* provide links to support channels, reset password pages, account management,
* know the OAuth endpoints, if available,
* know the OpenID Connect endpoints, so I can register my OAuth client dynamically,
* know the OAuth scope tokens I need in order to access a service,
* know which endpoints serve the same data via different protocols,
* know *all* the available services (not just the ones I know about), so I can suggest other clients which may be useful.

We had a few more discussion items at https://github.com/CalConnect/AUTODISCOVERY/issues

One of the initial ideas was to have the accounts managed by the operating system and data access/synchronization handled by individual applications. In this scenario, the operating system would provide the UI to configure an account and perform the service discovery. Afterwards it would delegate the service configuration along with the account identifier to the applications which can handle the services found. If the provider offers services for which no application is present on the system, it could suggest suitable applications from the app store or software repository. The operating system could rerun the service discovery from time to time and notify the user about changes (e.g. "Your proviare the applications you can use: ...").

I don't see this as a use case for WebFinger though. The services offered by a provider is not user data (although they may vary for each users), it's primarily provider data. As such, I'd prefer to provide a single JSON document at a well-known URL under the provider's domain, e.g. at "/.well-known/services". This would make it trivial to host a static document, which would do the trick in most setups. More complex providers could still return per-user configurations (after authentication).

The attached example shows how a document might look like as per the current status.

Cheers,

Marten



Am 16.07.19 um 07:22 schrieb Bron Gondwana:
On Tue, Jul 16, 2019, at 05:31, Paul E. Jones wrote:
ART folks,

Several years ago when I was working on WebFinger, one of the use cases I presented was using WebFinger to facilitate auto-configuring email clients.  It was and still is a problem I deal with today.

For my own family, I have to manually configure several different clients on several different platforms for each member of the family.  It's time consuming and really needs to be made simpler.

My wife also has to deal with this issue where she works, because her company, while just 100 or so employees, has offices in two different countries and the mail server settings an employee uses depends on his or her geographic location.  To use standard IETF protocols, it means a lot of manual provisioning.

I see the same sort of challenges with service providers. If one wants to have his or her own domain, but isn't technically savvy, they're in for a lot of "fun" trying to figure out the various settings. Seriously, no normal person should have to understand what SMTP or IMAP means, and definitely what port numbers or security settings to fill in.

While there has been a generic DNS-based method for email provision for a while, it doesn't work for me. It doesn't work for my wife's company, either. It also doesn't define everything one might need to define (e.g., required security settings or policies).

So we put together a very simple example to show how this might be done with WebFinger.  See the draft here:

There's also been discussion about doing the same thing for caldav and carddav in CalConnect, which was led by Marten. It would be good to combine this work!

Cheers,

Bron.

-- 
  Bron Gondwana
  brong@fastmail.fm


-- 
Marten Gajda
CEO

dmfs GmbH
Schandauer Straße 34
01309 Dresden
GERMANY

phone: +49 177 4427167
email: marten@dmfs.org

Managing Director: Marten Gajda
Registered address: Dresden
Registered No.: AG Dresden HRB 34881
VAT Reg. No.: DE303248743
-- 
Marten Gajda
CEO

dmfs GmbH
Schandauer Straße 34
01309 Dresden
GERMANY

phone: +49 177 4427167
email: marten@dmfs.org

Managing Director: Marten Gajda
Registered address: Dresden
Registered No.: AG Dresden HRB 34881
VAT Reg. No.: DE303248743
--------------FFD8D50B023AFE5D9B146CB3-- From nobody Fri Jul 19 01:13:36 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82CE21204AA for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 01:13:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cridland.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xgcCe3Kmjrbq for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 01:13:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x52e.google.com (mail-ed1-x52e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D3D9D12047B for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 01:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x52e.google.com with SMTP id k21so33740291edq.3 for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 01:13:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cridland.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=YMwaFJXa0jkDDDfE3TjcuF2qmV4L+m9VmS/aaa/gpl8=; b=IIXP19z4Ia3NhW1yMq8kVBZt9KUPuQXTlM1i6LzZK7pzl1KK2uml60PZK7qsUklZ0p OgMOuJwF3mzKvmA8U2KCP1u4gwc8RTLHt3hNEscCxoQyDqvdairoKBgPpoTtDqKvZ/wJ 3lI6P1raMZk8ey9+6F8ykPQtkTJyTqmpPO4UA= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=YMwaFJXa0jkDDDfE3TjcuF2qmV4L+m9VmS/aaa/gpl8=; b=obGRFgTP+vZSVSS+HqXnM2PvzZFyvvY9OEhUdcyx39azrbd8ihHudQGJJJPib2OHtg QxYjM5Ht9GKc1RsYWkPa0pAVbpavO3dDC7IiDNIEAD8px/hFNKCykH5GzapVVSWInQEv /JNq+SZDAUG5bP8ZSzkJOF6o16Qe3+dOE18OyXwCH9mKe5yqe4ac0hoDZkDl5UHxO49m Z4fHUfdcCfEyhnm5Z5Y7f3mRjQ587d33ny1UaIjq0fw35tGOuyBQqljKRlwiBvv3UnjZ +VWsShcYDGZlIZYxpJIbpe9tzjNJ0AQgXa3WquA6oEP5yVAweY/FNOC7uT3JlYlQvSD7 lYlg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXW0Cjdq+YgRv5X8z5RDCzkZocp1FPURHDkhlfoufGjXHVxpN6c kWT1t1yaEM+CY4aLhgQCuVcBwILkRew1nqptVeup31WAulg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwJzQh9dGuDigQwr1n+9n86LtMcGPdsH54ELSpInkJLeaRWqP13YpS4MX1P5mWhRl9tG7WycfynWlDVmXUTVOo= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:b34d:: with SMTP id cd13mr39473244ejb.107.1563524002317; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 01:13:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20190716220519.A420450758F@ary.qy> <3A04338D-CE01-4693-92AF-4AE5CB70A68F@bzfx.net> <3F299649-6396-4C71-B587-D80650C22D0A@packetizer.com> In-Reply-To: From: Dave Cridland Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 09:13:11 +0100 Message-ID: To: John R Levine Cc: "Paul E. Jones" , "General Area Review Team (gen-art@ietf.org)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c1a1c2058e044c53" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 08:13:34 -0000 --000000000000c1a1c2058e044c53 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 at 02:48, John R Levine wrote: > As an old uucp user (ima!johnl) I can assure you that UUCP and every other > non RFC 822 mail address scheme is dead dead dead. There may be some uucp > transport lurking but there's no bangs in the addresses. > > Also, while most acct URIs look like traditional email addresses, the scheme definition itself allows for the more exciting variants of 822 addresses, like MIXER. Dave. --000000000000c1a1c2058e044c53 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 at 02:48, John R = Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote= :
As an old uucp= user (ima!johnl) I can assure you that UUCP and every other
non RFC 822 mail address scheme is dead dead dead.=C2=A0 There may be some = uucp
transport lurking but there's no bangs in the addresses.


Also, while most acct URIs look like traditional = email addresses, the scheme definition itself allows for the more exciting = variants of 822 addresses, like MIXER.

Dave.=C2=A0=
--000000000000c1a1c2058e044c53-- From nobody Fri Jul 19 01:21:07 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE1E91201DA for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 01:21:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cridland.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K0D4-AHDiHDs for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 01:21:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x533.google.com (mail-ed1-x533.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::533]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C229C12015F for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 01:21:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x533.google.com with SMTP id p15so33706273eds.8 for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 01:21:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cridland.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=LtRN1JhCsfjD3fJJtvF8I8J3SaZ4PrypSzuULm4HbWo=; b=XDcuaLeaSE4dbCydDmC32UiSJ7n6ptm5HnbAghnY9NG3a+QCTs+nzPYfre7V7OI10b JVI1U4n8n4JrTK3yFp2xrf79pZFbZtfvL2EHa8sINcoZFU+t8r6KiZCivgrNyKS4twVI pc8c8JFbBUGa6eGFkXMNZ/zCCgV02ZXRUoA/U= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=LtRN1JhCsfjD3fJJtvF8I8J3SaZ4PrypSzuULm4HbWo=; b=SsFJByu1AP27IfQe9hOalH8zQZq5bjqcFOPTM2sMMVlCVBPrz4MzLbdxWmiF6jXiht zQvEvQPpj4u4P/BRHr+TkD4CGss5CY5BjXv6WSM9nftV6wFXckWoan9K7QKcYpOA9Thk 3HDLOyEV6hzzVGIE9Gp8N2ewcXjtyA0dYkha9StKzHlYnq36c8UVsywYFMQeJUD2zMo7 2Z+VJDG0FOXhtAgkU7Wq7TQ2ZQdZiqHVvfucOcCGviMGp3VckhWaP2lyrgJFsnN0ypt1 SiTVlLf+dfEzfzdEbOQsWVsF0mTiwWUHulU2QJSXQ975mDvO6SMd/3Mk5g3tGWySUVCe KOEA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVWQ1YBprPdGCc0UFjonZAQiT2XeR7GEvdLafJyNqsUPJU21PA0 YGDEhed5aISYFVw/2ynGejaCSJZ+OvQVN+2eed64Bg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxLsX7O+m0IlKXFwDIx8AwzJHPGHUlSuU/R91VqpvlvEnIIhEEuHQb83BK2nYCwOw4aXvr8QIe3vEL49PtflLg= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:1557:: with SMTP id p23mr6278739edx.207.1563524461254; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 01:21:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4BB105E1-0973-4416-8C2A-A729CD869C8A@packetizer.com> In-Reply-To: <4BB105E1-0973-4416-8C2A-A729CD869C8A@packetizer.com> From: Dave Cridland Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 09:20:50 +0100 Message-ID: To: "Paul E. Jones" Cc: "art@ietf.org" , "webfinger@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001c6efb058e046816" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 08:21:05 -0000 --0000000000001c6efb058e046816 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 at 15:12, Paul E. Jones wrote: > RFC 6186 is the DNS-based one to which I referred below. Unfortunately, it > doesn't allow setting various configuration options and wouldn't work at > all for my wife's use case where employees use different mail servers based > on the country in which they reside. > I'm not saying that additional information isn't needed, but it'd be nice to be able to use SRV alongside. I'd expect SRV to be used on every connection, whereas an auto configuration file would be used less, potentially only on initial provision. The Thunderbird config would need to be adapted anyway; it's not easily extensible, due to not using XML namespaces, for one thing. Dave. --0000000000001c6efb058e046816 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --0000000000001c6efb058e046816-- From nobody Fri Jul 19 06:33:30 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 180A412019C for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 06:33:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N8SH0H-0iu_i for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 06:33:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sdaoden.eu (sdaoden.eu [217.144.132.164]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C69C12019D for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 06:33:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sdaoden.eu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 7D18816059; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 15:33:22 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 15:33:20 +0200 From: Steffen Nurpmeso To: Marten Gajda Cc: "art@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20190719133320.aPmih%steffen@sdaoden.eu> In-Reply-To: References: <1b042605-4b3a-40b7-a792-2390c924282f@www.fastmail.com> Mail-Followup-To: Marten Gajda , "art@ietf.org" User-Agent: s-nail v14.9.13-133-gfae1150f OpenPGP: id=EE19E1C1F2F7054F8D3954D8308964B51883A0DD; url=https://ftp.sdaoden.eu/steffen.asc; preference=signencrypt BlahBlahBlah: Any stupid boy can crush a beetle. But all the professors in the world can make no bugs. Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 13:33:28 -0000 Marten Gajda wrote in : |As a client developer, I want to provide a smooth UX to our users. \ |This means I need much more information than just a server URL. You want to present them a barcode that they can scan with their smart phone and which is made available via some local registry to any interested application (via some kind of IPC, say DBUS), then. (Please take into account that white-race-first-world develops diabetes in teenage age, overweight, a massive front of teenage allergies, increasing antibiotic resistencies due to misuse, drug misuse in general (shouldn't be buried even, only as special waste, that sort of), and decreased fertility, and much, much more. Is this related; maybe not.) |For instance, I also want to | |* present the name or logo of the provider which hosts the user's account, \ |ideally before they enter their credentials, You made a contract with a provider, and it has given you credentials to use. The provider has an IP address, and you have submissions, pop3s and imaps access. On the web site's welcome page the services URLs were noted. (Let's say imap.XY.Z.) |* provide links to support channels, reset password pages, account \ |management, Ha! If it were that easy to find these pages on the web site of your provider!! Shiny happy people there will be, i bet. |* know the OAuth endpoints, if available, |* know the OpenID Connect endpoints, so I can register my OAuth client \ |dynamically, |* know the OAuth scope tokens I need in order to access a service, I personally have problems with OAuth. Not because of the standard group split, but mostly because you have to go over dedicated web sites (likely), granted, today without advertising. You can also go over onion to avoid IP-based location tracking (maybe, still), i develop fears this may not legally be possible anymore in a not too distant future. (I do not use onion.) It would be nicer to have a client certificate (with password, possibly), that can be very easily refreshed/replaced, maybe as part of normal TLS payload, through whatever protocol i am currently connected to my provider, may it be SMTPS, IMAPS, POP3S, (HTTPS). With a master account key. And the possibility to revoke the old client certificate and refetch a new one simply by establishing a normal TLS session followed by a normal login with that key. You can diverse that and use diverse client id, client secret and an access token. I just have implemented OAUTHBEARER for my MUA's SMTP, POP3 and IMAP parts. While testing i needed the refresh token once an hour, and the client id, and the client secret. So, once an hour, i need to load/decrypt the file which stores that triple. It does not contain the account's master password, this is true. When i close the lid of my notebook i am protected, because the encrypted filesystem will then be automatically unmounted, but different to kdestroy(1) -A the token is still valid for some time. |* know which endpoints serve the same data via different protocols, |* know *all* the available services (not just the ones I know about), \ |so I can suggest other clients which may be useful. Wow. A different scenario. You are the employee of a company and have been sent via airplane (which i would refuse to do, since airplanes are killers) to a different state/country, to another subsidiary of the company. You are expected to login via their local net. (I would wonder why they do not use some kind of company VPN, and if it is as simplicistic as via tinc. But ok, i have no idea for one, and second the requirement to go over a local subdomain i could still imagine.) This points us back to the first paragraph. Or the second. What is wrong with having the corresponding (A,AAAA,MX,SRV etc.) DNS entries for state1.company.xy and state2.company.xy? Add some more for logos (if not yet existing) or whatever. There is also that WWW paradigm of having a favicon.ico in the root of your web presence, it will be fetched up automatically by browsers, why can't you? You need to have A/AAAA for the web presence in the DNS, why can't you have MX / SRV for the other non-HTTPS services, too? You want personalization on a per-user level, and you do not control your DNS zone, and you do not want to spend a little bit of money to get your own little DNS zone? You would spawn a DNS server on your box to overcome this, but getaddrinfo(3) does not allow specifying which DNS server is to be asked? Aha! Yes, that is a problem. You want to furtherly enforce decentralisation by moving responsibility away from the controlled and otherwise constrained DNS to anyway running "private" HTTP servers. (A company could still have a VPN to overcome this, me thinks.) If it is because DNS is controlled and constrained then following the pigeon RFC there should possibly be an albatross RFC. So that slow people like me understand the issue, finally. There is mischief! There is mischief! I see more robots passing by that collect all the information stored in .well-known. I see people getting bombed because of information stored under .well-known, for nothing, who could they ask instead of a lawyer in that case? In DNS you have at least the zone above, and their administrator(s), which you could ask to ok that content in such a case. Would be cool to have S/MIME certificates via that mechanism. And POP3 would be cool if the current state of affairs could be SYNCed, and if only the body of a message could be loaded (especially autocrypt blows the headers enormously, and doing a RETR after the summaries' TOP is a shame). ... |I don't see this as a use case for WebFinger though. The services offered \ |by a provider is not user data (although they may vary for each users), \ |it's primarily provider data. As such, I'd prefer to |provide a single JSON document at a well-known URL under the provider's \ |domain, e.g. at "/.well-known/services". This would make it trivial \ |to host a static document, which would do the trick in most |setups. More complex providers could still return per-user configurations \ |(after authentication). | |The attached example shows how a document might look like as per the \ |current status. The draft[1] contains examples. [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-webfinger-email-autoconfig-00 --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) From ggh@multi.fi Fri Jul 19 07:07:45 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D4DA1201CE for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 07:07:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5iLvHh84psor for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 07:07:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webmail.multi.fi (webmail.multi.fi [85.134.37.159]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0740C1201DD for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 07:07:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webmail.multi.fi (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by webmail.multi.fi (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B970F180009F for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 17:07:39 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [109.240.72.31] ([109.240.72.31]) by webmail.multi.fi (Horde Framework) with HTTPS; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 17:07:39 +0300 Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 17:07:39 +0300 Message-ID: <20190719170739.Horde.asEr78lLvxgknT21hdZL_dW@webmail.multi.fi> From: Ggh To: art@ietf.org User-Agent: Horde Application Framework 5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; DelSp=Yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Archived-At: Subject: [art] RSS/Atom + P2P X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 15:07:50 -0000 Hello, Excuse me:I don't want to pollute, so I need to ask: Is this list an appropriate place for discussing RSS/Atom and/with P2P? Thank you, Greg Tell me, and I forget. Ask me, and I discover... Tell me, and I forget. Ask me, and I discover... From nobody Fri Jul 19 22:04:53 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A39312008D for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 22:04:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.751 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.751 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=pJ5yd9qE; dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=b1f5KFSI Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VuiIDyca0JlQ for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 22:04:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BA1E3120044 for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 22:04:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 20087 invoked from network); 20 Jul 2019 05:04:46 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=4e73.5d32a0ee.k1907; i=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=p2hGMN+rXiu2M/C0ZPW4Z954bxWceJo0L/+W8TbAOMY=; b=pJ5yd9qEKNARsa98XUMiOlVit3NSi3hk87wRMyD3e6OnYM1bQrmbj1UDyh1baC+UKR7PbDCzaTyMt03zyKz/aR0+nXd4nnJnFt7ec/+a9KjQbB3fEVx0jm7KTrx9kscOhND9vP9As77Pj2KiYNCN/72U+9xZejKyAwFcw2iako/1r1ibpOtd6zAwn9N0rYOxpSWlIn++LYBLZHfhS2RW612VcqPn2S9FonVYF0eQQYo8v/InShwooqO6iy5smORs DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=4e73.5d32a0ee.k1907; olt=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=p2hGMN+rXiu2M/C0ZPW4Z954bxWceJo0L/+W8TbAOMY=; b=b1f5KFSInOYSyeDKZB/ByTpiBg9oWVkP03l62s+lfXhlqXCKZ4CE1j/x6i7wi+8RMtWKGfVRa5/n4BY+m9zfkgESF4y/Sv0RTzN0DCI/mf92xZROjjJkihwdr5AkxMbvRtRWmOF18n5NBxlmr4B+HeECNsoT4HH8jLYaT0uBeq5/aUa44OiDAq39R0mQe1MjzwS3W8oyq46KxJH1uYTiy9Qp2j/MNoTwOyAmvPRb4xFdOjmEeMsoML48gjhhyqye Received: from ary.qy ([64.246.232.221]) by imap.iecc.com ([64.57.183.75]) with ESMTPSA (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD, johnl@iecc.com) via TCP; 20 Jul 2019 05:04:45 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 925A852550A; Sat, 20 Jul 2019 01:04:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: 20 Jul 2019 01:04:44 -0400 Message-Id: <20190720050445.925A852550A@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: art@ietf.org Cc: dave@cridland.net In-Reply-To: Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 05:04:51 -0000 In article you write: >I'm not saying that additional information isn't needed, but it'd be nice >to be able to use SRV alongside. There are places where, say, mailboxes with local parts starting with A-M are on one IMAP server and those starting with N-Z are on another. It's hard to see how you could do that with SRV records tied to the domain. >The Thunderbird config would need to be adapted anyway; it's not easily >extensible, due to not using XML namespaces, for one thing. It definitely needs extensions. R's, John PS: for anyone who was going to suggest encoding the local part in the DNS for SRV lookups, you really don't want to go there. From nobody Mon Jul 22 15:20:57 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4883A120123 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 15:20:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hy1_iL7YJHbP for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 15:20:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x12a.google.com (mail-lf1-x12a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 499C61200BA for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 15:20:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x12a.google.com with SMTP id c19so27817651lfm.10 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 15:20:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=AvKo8ZL8SfTKB45ShkDewgLVKD8g+nPWVZqu5FLq4JE=; b=BOgi69rnUzGN5xBHDZKK1ctTWannXBctaJwy7R+rW1DRyVeS+M/QqYGC4uveoXpC6L a6wfSCfrMI1/7uVAISQ1D5GgXljUMaUwqgIECa4Rvst5H+dLcrrcpX3FTUZ+7mY2aVOp CmbqiQuVgZr08uZ31OV7B2HUjWHEWkvrU+0vTqpPDbUDqNRJlND3rwJv/GqG4331s2Dd 3WALug/hMFH9qVbx9RLdrzji1Zwx2iQRH4qz6YOpc7kKWKAlkiy+u0V8SqF26HT33bTr 5dehTrXae4j1WtS7Prxlto9tImeOwxhZBpBiNnjvk/JlfwmHnLCjup+4bdEUe0ULZwSA +7zg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=AvKo8ZL8SfTKB45ShkDewgLVKD8g+nPWVZqu5FLq4JE=; b=QMMzTFBvJMwn4nn7ssEN0xUH9sgb/gUQKF43nH0vnEJitWttZh/lHeQnpxvO469/2d ZuUL7E5jpVuEXD4qgVikRNTXHgw97Uk4KgFI/k1ci2VZYpzw6gCPrzIy12gnBQxXXF3g teWkOm0+OIO82wTAMYVZdf05znHAO3a8Dtw5BnEiwglFJ3Ly7PjhfJ4AiHG6nQWuYkCv 6isWTTVdnra7K6EkgKv2UXN7sxzGB0exiESrr+jLY/N76vq5fdJamGGv5iQcJJ4CDnYe f2i7QO6xhqAHOntA1erwC+46ldI5v952qAbYDiOKs/+RLricpsSaEJm77dULYkQIdtca UkmA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWJ5LuRzJqZTJk6Re39fRx80IHb4ch9YsZKWDpxHgk8rX4gbdSr iLaBCjgqarhZPlET28N3SKjc3/2YXDn653qTqzTmyQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwM3zr/q9X7rtjqhPv4Ae+sg3j/zfBIKgDLD51DMQdLJ1wSjnt3Fa34x5y89fxLV2jGQqR+rR30Zg0SdtXtmBY= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:146:: with SMTP id m6mr32971181lfo.90.1563834047227; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 15:20:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Jeffrey Yasskin Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 18:20:34 -0400 Message-ID: To: HTTP Working Group , art@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: [art] Web Packaging side meeting Tuesday@8:30 in Van Horne X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 22:20:53 -0000 We'll be having a Web Packaging side meeting tomorrow (Tuesday) morning at 8:30 in Van Horne. We have a draft agenda at https://github.com/WICG/webpackage/wiki/IETF-105-Agenda. Please come if you're interested. Thanks, Jeffrey From nobody Mon Jul 22 15:29:40 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 533F9120094 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 15:29:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=dmfs.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6qBMcHH03mmQ for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 15:29:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailrelay2-1.pub.mailoutpod1-cph3.one.com (mailrelay2-1.pub.mailoutpod1-cph3.one.com [46.30.210.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C44C1200BA for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 15:29:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dmfs.org; s=20140924; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:in-reply-to:mime-version:date: message-id:from:references:to:subject:from; bh=o3XlY+2O6EiHRjdzMrp1911OrccjvwD/8ETkfdpEQs0=; b=n3+S/yNRzGtEMwwJ61Gbpr/j4jP3i+eVzxPp02iN7hs6a4rlVgVEd+c3P8X03/0CfLacKgNTxSoqv uXkFcUMwRd8FbjyDKfPdAhDd3Us3F3/cXwjYumsZN6K7jHwCWi7/KxH8xzpOfkP1G56BeDzH8sFGqf pZsCHrXxR60MtBzE= X-HalOne-Cookie: cba0d2f8371289fb32fa90790008c02b4b1a74cf X-HalOne-ID: 2d324a50-acd0-11e9-b9fd-d0431ea8a290 Received: from smtp.dmfs.org (unknown [79.254.14.231]) by mailrelay2.pub.mailoutpod1-cph3.one.com (Halon) with ESMTPSA id 2d324a50-acd0-11e9-b9fd-d0431ea8a290; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 22:29:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: from boss.localdomain (p2E50E39C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [46.80.227.156]) by smtp.dmfs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 25A3F1F4 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 00:29:32 +0200 (CEST) To: "art@ietf.org" References: <1b042605-4b3a-40b7-a792-2390c924282f@www.fastmail.com> <20190719133320.aPmih%steffen@sdaoden.eu> From: Marten Gajda Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 00:29:29 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20190719133320.aPmih%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 22:29:39 -0000 Am 19.07.19 um 15:33 schrieb Steffen Nurpmeso: > Marten Gajda wrote in : > |As a client developer, I want to provide a smooth UX to our users. \ > |This means I need much more information than just a server URL. > > You want to present them a barcode that they can scan with their > smart phone and which is made available via some local registry to > any interested application (via some kind of IPC, say DBUS), then. Sure, but that provisioning part, which also contains user specific data (e.g. account name or maybe even credentials), should be a separate standard. Also, you don't want to share account data with "any interested application". I'd prefer if the setup component checks the system (and optionally the app store or software repository) for applications which can handle the protocols in the service configuration document and asks the user for which ones to provision with the configuration and access tokens > |For instance, I also want to > | > |* present the name or logo of the provider which hosts the user's account, \ > |ideally before they enter their credentials, > > You made a contract with a provider, and it has given you > credentials to use. The provider has an IP address, and you have > submissions, pop3s and imaps access. On the web site's welcome page > the services URLs were noted. (Let's say imap.XY.Z.) So? The idea behind an auto-configuration or service-discovery is to avoid having to type any URLs into client applications. Also I'd expect the client to rerun the discovery every now and then (for instance when the cache expired) and pick up configuration changes (like newly supported services). > > |* provide links to support channels, reset password pages, account \ > |management, > > Ha! If it were that easy to find these pages on the web site of > your provider!! Shiny happy people there will be, i bet. I'm not sure how to understand this statement. If you suggest that some service providers deliberately "hide" password reset and settings pages to present more ads to the user and they wouldn't be interested in providing these shortcuts, you may be right. But many providers still value usability and user experience, not to mention all the other non-freemail providers and use cases (like corporate services). Maybe you just have the wrong provider. If that's not what you suggest, please be more specific. > > |* know the OAuth endpoints, if available, > |* know the OpenID Connect endpoints, so I can register my OAuth client \ > |dynamically, > |* know the OAuth scope tokens I need in order to access a service, > > I personally have problems with OAuth. Not because of the > standard group split, but mostly because you have to go over > dedicated web sites (likely), granted, today without advertising. > You can also go over onion to avoid IP-based location tracking > (maybe, still), i develop fears this may not legally be possible > anymore in a not too distant future. (I do not use onion.) > > It would be nicer to have a client certificate (with password, > possibly), that can be very easily refreshed/replaced, maybe as > part of normal TLS payload, through whatever protocol i am > currently connected to my provider, may it be SMTPS, IMAPS, POP3S, > (HTTPS). With a master account key. And the possibility to > revoke the old client certificate and refetch a new one simply by > establishing a normal TLS session followed by a normal login with > that key. You can diverse that and use diverse client id, client > secret and an access token. > > I just have implemented OAUTHBEARER for my MUA's SMTP, POP3 and > IMAP parts. While testing i needed the refresh token once an > hour, and the client id, and the client secret. So, once an hour, > i need to load/decrypt the file which stores that triple. It does > not contain the account's master password, this is true. > When i close the lid of my notebook i am protected, because the > encrypted filesystem will then be automatically unmounted, but > different to kdestroy(1) -A the token is still valid for some > time. You're off-topic. Anyway, you're welcome to propose a new standard and I'd be happy to implement it once its ratified. For now OAuth2 is one of the better options we have in terms of privacy and security. In general, a service configuration protocol certainly should be agnostic to how authentication is performed by the services. However, if the authentication method requires the knowledge of certain endpoints they should be provided in that document. > |* know which endpoints serve the same data via different protocols, > |* know *all* the available services (not just the ones I know about), \ > |so I can suggest other clients which may be useful. > > Wow. A different scenario. You are the employee of a company and > have been sent via airplane (which i would refuse to do, since > airplanes are killers) to a different state/country, to another > subsidiary of the company. You are expected to login via their > local net. (I would wonder why they do not use some kind of > company VPN, and if it is as simplicistic as via tinc. But ok, > i have no idea for one, and second the requirement to go over > a local subdomain i could still imagine.) Not sure what you're talking about. > > This points us back to the first paragraph. Or the second. > What is wrong with having the corresponding (A,AAAA,MX,SRV etc.) > DNS entries for state1.company.xy and state2.company.xy? > Add some more for logos (if not yet existing) or whatever. For starters, not all Frameworks allow you to resolve anything but A(AAA) records. On Java (and Android for that matter) it's not so trivial to lookup MX or SRV records or even the current DNS server address. A simple GET request to a well-known address, on the other hand, is barely an issue. There may be use cases in which it may not be possible or reasonable to set up a webserver just to provide that document, for instance when a service only provides email. In these cases we could offer a fallback mechanism which allows a client to retrieve the document from another location, for instance by providing an SRV record which points to the location of the service configuration document. Other fallbacks may be possible as well, but .well-known would definitely preferred. > There is also that WWW paradigm of having a favicon.ico in the > root of your web presence, it will be fetched up automatically by > browsers, why can't you? That's exactly what I'm proposing, allowing clients to get the configuration for all services offered by a provider with a single GET request to a well-known address (e.g. `/.well-known/services`). Imagine the favicon.ico location would have to be retrieved by looking up the "favicon" SRV record. > You need to have A/AAAA for the web presence in the DNS, why can't > you have MX / SRV for the other non-HTTPS services, too? What's your point? You also need A/AAAA records for the non-HTTPS services? You're comparing Apples and Oranges. DNS is not suitable to provide that kind of structured information. One of the reasons is that you only get information that you've explicitly asked for, so you'd have to request every single bit of information that you can use, without even knowing whether it exists. > You want personalization on a per-user level, and you do not > control your DNS zone, and you do not want to spend a little bit > of money to get your own little DNS zone? You would spawn a DNS > server on your box to overcome this, but getaddrinfo(3) does not > allow specifying which DNS server is to be asked? Aha! Yes, that > is a problem. You want to furtherly enforce decentralisation by > moving responsibility away from the controlled and otherwise > constrained DNS to anyway running "private" HTTP servers. (A > company could still have a VPN to overcome this, me thinks.) > > If it is because DNS is controlled and constrained then following > the pigeon RFC there should possibly be an albatross RFC. So that > slow people like me understand the issue, finally. There is > mischief! There is mischief! I see more robots passing by that > collect all the information stored in .well-known. That's one more point for .well-known, if you ask me. Unless you have your own private DNS server, all the SRV records are publicly available. A service configuration document under .well-known can easily be protected with authentication. IMO you should be able to retrieve a redacted version of the document without authentication which just gives enough information to know who you're talking to and how to authenticate to get more info (e.g. by providing OAuth2 endpoints). There is no need to disclose more information to unauthenticated users than you'd disclose by setting up SRV records. Hosting your own DNS zone comes at a price as you've just noted above. You'll have higher efforts to maintain the server and you'll have to make sure your client application uses the correct DNS server. So you'll most likely have to enter it manually somewhere. This sort of defeats the purpose of an automated service configuration. In many cases a simple service configuration document can be hosted statically. In other cases your server software (e.g. your Groupware) could handle that for you. Maintaining DNS is not so easy and while TLS encryption is almost trivial to set up these days (e.g. using letsencrypt), DNSSEC is not that common yet (https://stats.labs.apnic.net/dnssec). > I see people > getting bombed because of information stored under .well-known, > for nothing, who could they ask instead of a lawyer in that case? Again, you can protect sensitive, non-public information with authentication when using a .well-known resource. In addition a simple document wouldn't have to contain much more information than you're proposing to publish via DNS to the world. > | > |The attached example shows how a document might look like as per the \ > |current status. > > The draft[1] contains examples. > > [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-webfinger-email-autoconfig-00 Yes, but my example doesn't use WebFinger and addresses a few other issues. Have you actually seen it? Cheers, Marten > > --steffen > | > |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, > |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one > |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off > |(By Robert Gernhardt) -- Marten Gajda CEO dmfs GmbH Schandauer Straße 34 01309 Dresden GERMANY phone: +49 177 4427167 email: marten@dmfs.org Managing Director: Marten Gajda Registered address: Dresden Registered No.: AG Dresden HRB 34881 VAT Reg. No.: DE303248743 From nobody Mon Jul 22 16:16:02 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C7DF120048 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 16:16:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Om-Z7sDXdp9A for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 16:15:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CDF1F120045 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 16:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from client-0195.vpn.uni-bremen.de (client-0195.vpn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.107.195]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 45syCJ6TppzyRD; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 01:15:56 +0200 (CEST) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 585530153.805261-026ae5e4a5850cd246512dc73c47c624 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 19:15:55 -0400 Message-Id: <422255D5-FD8A-48D8-8442-1A13E3E7B884@tzi.org> To: art@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: [art] BCP190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 23:16:00 -0000 I think BCP190 is the right thing for protocols that are added to a web = server. BCP190 is out of scope for protocols that define an entire web server. Count me in for a side meeting. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From jsha@letsencrypt.org Mon Jul 22 17:11:31 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE27C120094 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 17:11:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=letsencrypt.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lLbmuPzYHwL2 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 17:11:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x82e.google.com (mail-qt1-x82e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0064312008F for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 17:11:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x82e.google.com with SMTP id z4so40253644qtc.3 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 17:11:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=letsencrypt.org; s=google; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=50LVaPmVR0B0i6TF+p+dva99hoOwJgzifO4ObiIW86Q=; b=enjQYnOCEKhynUuzvWM5EWiQ6o6YG5O5G/wA7uBQQm+bro463DesLh2bfqttyppSBA h5scLAKK1QwKY6fOM1ERw+g7R1EWz60L3Vg/Z0Grxc+TebQcmDmu/d5+PZ7KqpVksHjx WpIagugrfCXWFJiHBO97sGxgIHZ+01lcMTD3s= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=50LVaPmVR0B0i6TF+p+dva99hoOwJgzifO4ObiIW86Q=; b=VszpOPc7JU6S/UbDUmillJXBM6IQfyYu3frbZOIRYweKUDE29+sq/hOOuQVC7AI4sz Q1AUSGqner/bktHgbpvn7+mNjzc3zh8HPAFpNp7Zho635EJMEpA1AwM6aqkUDorYZNvz 8uuwoUNURU19rAY4MJ50dSH8J+R/CD9jS3vqrg1/I0fb57wKXmqKjm22xRCYny9jSlq5 TuKTjbw/KoOo1TgR9VSYpF8l4bbmmbJVq1/n15BincbxvaNmWhQ3IS4GttNSnD9k8p9C u4sw3eVvzXIszbhNcBqUauZrLm1IYTOkH9uuDBM7pRMaBGdYwlk2HKVEVLaE3vYRTCB3 bdnQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWHfu3ykAYH2U3FyG+ueg7+Qedu019R2+QqnPbKw9AfwuzgoYYm rVw3fzcOvlJjqwu0WI0dJkBDeuzfecNdJDvFCALSAg8royQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxMG95FnThar/LSrXPv/3ahKSMM5FrvEvIHMne72CA5DRU/YygReEke4FyCSkr50Djlc2x/B11BRKEPA+ALkQM= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:7510:: with SMTP id u16mr49371219qtq.60.1563840688529; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 17:11:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Jacob Hoffman-Andrews Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 17:11:02 -0700 Message-ID: To: art@ietf.org, Adam Roach Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b9ba74058e4e083c" Archived-At: Subject: [art] Side meeting for CT / BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 00:13:07 -0000 --000000000000b9ba74058e4e083c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, For those that weren't able to attend, we had a discussion during the ART Dispatch meeting about BCP 190's applicability to TRANS. Unfortunately, we didn't have much time allotted and so not everybody had an opportunity to chime in. Adam proposed that we schedule a side meeting instead. Adam, would you be open to trying to find consensus on the ART mailing list instead? I'm not at IETF in person, and I know a number of other folks who were interested aren't either (I counted 27 participants in the Meetecho). If the side meeting rooms don't have video facilities, that makes it hard for everyone to participate. Since we brought up the issue at ART Dispatch, I think we've accomplished the goal of "making sure the right people are paying attention," so I think it makes plenty of sense to finish up the conversation on here. Thanks, Jacob --000000000000b9ba74058e4e083c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

For those that weren't able to attend,= we had a discussion during the ART Dispatch meeting about BCP 190's ap= plicability to TRANS. Unfortunately, we didn't have much time allotted = and so not everybody had an opportunity to chime in.

Adam proposed t= hat we schedule a side meeting instead. Adam, would you be open to trying t= o find consensus on the ART mailing list instead? I'm not at IETF in pe= rson, and I know a number of other folks who were interested aren't eit= her (I counted 27 participants in the Meetecho). If the side meeting rooms = don't have video facilities, that makes it hard for everyone to partici= pate.

Since we brought up the issue at ART Dispatc= h, I think we've accomplished the goal of "making sure the right p= eople are paying attention," so I think it makes plenty of sense to fi= nish up the conversation on here.

Thanks,
Jacob
--000000000000b9ba74058e4e083c-- From nobody Mon Jul 22 20:57:50 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 187C312003E for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 20:57:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.98 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.98 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pL7taDPPAQU7 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 20:57:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0A72212001E for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 20:57:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-9c35.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-9c35.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.156.53]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id x6N3vhab076852 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 22 Jul 2019 22:57:44 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1563854265; bh=Buz8uPY8PDHehiK4vtpyygiR54PTDvzEAEqkBy9aZFk=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=ZNDAb3JYGIkCBHviNn1xcQgVwBDowyMDDHipg+NpuqZR9VUuM7MC8QQsGUAJqxS94 j2tYhsxHPdZkvWVFUaPR8vM5/wnao5cPAgo0E3OTo/ENsPSXjdYvZUERcGMcBTNuaT j3RVd4eXGKsST11XkFwxtK1CdZPbgcKliWQci6rQ= To: Carsten Bormann , art@ietf.org References: <422255D5-FD8A-48D8-8442-1A13E3E7B884@tzi.org> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <8872cc5c-34c5-845c-c930-3a7f0e3501f2@nostrum.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 23:57:42 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <422255D5-FD8A-48D8-8442-1A13E3E7B884@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] BCP190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 03:57:49 -0000 On 7/22/19 19:15, Carsten Bormann wrote: > BCP190 is out of scope for protocols that define an entire web server. Without weighing in on whether this statement is something I agree with, I want to point out that it isn't applicable to the topic at hand: discussions in TRANS have specifically referred to the origins that CT logs are hosted on as "multi-tenant." /a From nobody Mon Jul 22 21:16:07 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 550F412004E for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 21:16:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.98 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.98 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6Fl5dHEV2xdN for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 21:16:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EAD10120018 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 21:16:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-9c35.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-9c35.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.156.53]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id x6N4G02e079593 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 22 Jul 2019 23:16:01 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1563855362; bh=gXcsXmry/mMwKSpe1ndU8O/QrCmK4U5hlF7wR1wsm28=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=vz1yiXpKuzwH5+IrBHAKFnF3hMftR+vo5K5rBvwpgtb+ykCxYlokQoZ7Ew+Z+5BaG lwN6lrXTQQ76RPr3vgAAla75SLTAeRiyg00eNWNPJhLbhkZoduEkhWmsQOa+LQyAQc jSFJ8aqwclDS8QHBWWe2c8P7nDAHiS+iRSNKQp8g= To: Jacob Hoffman-Andrews , art@ietf.org References: From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <9430493c-06b7-f092-5110-9bf5ea61dcdf@nostrum.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 00:16:00 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Side meeting for CT / BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 04:16:05 -0000 On 7/22/19 20:11, Jacob Hoffman-Andrews wrote: > Hi, > > For those that weren't able to attend, we had a discussion during the > ART Dispatch meeting about BCP 190's applicability to TRANS. > Unfortunately, we didn't have much time allotted and so not everybody > had an opportunity to chime in. The amount of time we were able to allocate was an unfortunate consequence of timing. The crux of this issue did not become evident until after we had finalized the week's agenda, with only one hour allocated for the DISPATCH/ARTAREA meeting. The goal going into the meeting was to ensure the conversation was started in that room. We knew that a discussion that would identify a solution that is satisfactory to everyone would take more than 10 minutes. > Adam proposed that we schedule a side meeting instead. Adam, would you > be open to trying to find consensus on the ART mailing list instead? > I'm not at IETF in person, and I know a number of other folks who were > interested aren't either (I counted 27 participants in the Meetecho). > If the side meeting rooms don't have video facilities, that makes it > hard for everyone to participate. I should have been more precise, and I apologize for any confusion: of course consensus is determined by discussions on the mailing list, and I encourage everyone who has a position on the topic to engage here, both before and after any face-to-face discussions that occur. The suggestion to also have a side meeting arises from the fact that I think there is benefit to having people with varying opinions on this topic get together in a face-to-face environment to see if it is possible to find more common understanding more quickly than one might achieve via email. This is, after all, the reason the IETF continues to have face-to-face meetings rather than operating exclusively online. I'll reiterate my call that those interested parties presently in Montreal should take the opportunity afforded by being in the same place to find a time to get together and help each other understand their respective positions. > Since we brought up the issue at ART Dispatch, I think we've > accomplished the goal of "making sure the right people are paying > attention," so I think it makes plenty of sense to finish up the > conversation on here. As it will be. Consensus is always determined based on mailing list conversations. /a From nobody Mon Jul 22 21:17:44 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E9BE120041 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 21:17:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SGxJg4UX7Wta for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 21:17:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-x634.google.com (mail-pl1-x634.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::634]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 53DB2120018 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 21:17:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-x634.google.com with SMTP id b7so20093147pls.6 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 21:17:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:thread-index:content-language; bh=VqSLvvNlFRBO/itl2o2FXNAbEUHQBz4NhODFHpRiLmI=; b=Kucm0eIUglblj9zXYQXgVgAN7NX3H2cNE+j8wvi2/sHEwK414ShoibMqalJHOrUb/l yRlY7BOsOTU17reFNLQwFAufuUYkpVgqS4iP3KsFu9ZtOQbNtVVaHsklev/wbWkhRJA8 kuHXl6F9srG3jC1m2IFpZHNLkb+xhJ8ws2+pdKLvFFinkirQqtK7qQTvkHQvseN3XuP+ hhpm21L09GWdMT/rBnx41tKaWi+MKtYHWLrTJnRqYGq/A7/+fG+tQta+G4FdttmvGhqP 9f+Dcqpt0y+lksNMVvk8YiTtoHvBGDlwdGL2ULQHPiEQZNslfEYxvOClwXg1fD22b7xi c3Rw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date :message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=VqSLvvNlFRBO/itl2o2FXNAbEUHQBz4NhODFHpRiLmI=; b=VA0utCsVkyIWvPy/i+279DtIsdJnshKsn7F2SlDNKN3CETLmnsYhTnEDVEKhicr8Mc RP5RG99IXVlhN9eNqUaMfsJn/8/1X1dBq5q8AVjJj8eCVH2xeMYHa5T25xaAdLwspUnM 4fw7P9M454fUIRZap6TvcUHNXXDWXZrNydU+VzE1OuYhla/0Me+MyiYVdJ5uOl+Z6sZ+ 6skF9oWrmCcFtYXTQZUZPaSmfVvZy0rodx4yRa+Xahf6ce13a26DixUxQv6TP+AZ1wye zST1LVBQt0IK1zthFSMKPZiR0bOUlDH6L1vYrfdSrP/cNT6PGahfuPbRG7/UrsJxk5FV GybA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUfNMRllRMC8QhlD19ZQAycM/35UHY2t0fM+TGXLGmPyzEfdsAk w/h7D91dp0cGS7RLAmRwfM7z+lI6tylbXA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwG7ND8ueRCn7VN7+fOKGPDe45IYKTPJQKOzLqng4NBlxtneN8wEgBQg+NA4z+zeg9WkhoPMg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:100a:: with SMTP id b10mr38380350pla.338.1563855459359; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 21:17:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TVPC (c-67-169-101-78.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [67.169.101.78]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x25sm53600029pfa.90.2019.07.22.21.17.38 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 22 Jul 2019 21:17:38 -0700 (PDT) From: To: "'S Moonesamy'" , "'Rob Stradling'" , References: <791b33b8-4696-f69c-aca3-8838b2caafd8@sectigo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20190713054207.0bbd9b58@elandnews.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20190713054207.0bbd9b58@elandnews.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 21:17:38 -0700 Message-ID: <008901d5410d$90607b00$b1217100$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQJBBVEwaFYwe5JJTKFeM1O0Dlu61wKMIZkxpeunPaA= Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Against BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 04:17:42 -0000 I don't understand https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-trans-rfc6962-bis/ballot/ 5 DISCUSS on a document targeted to be Experimental where most of the objections don't seem to meet the criteria for raising a DISCUSS on a standards-track document. https://www.ietf.org/blog/discuss-criteria-iesg-review/#stand-disc much less Experimental. I'm especially baffled by the use of BCP 190 (which documents some guidelines) as somehow "blocking" anything in IESG Review. I'd advise inserting a Note at the top of the document pointing to the extensive comments in the IESG review and get on with publishing the document, as Experimental, so the standards-track work can begin. IMHO -- https://LarryMasinter.net From nobody Mon Jul 22 22:33:42 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2302D120091 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 22:33:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.679 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.679 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Bk00Eut9UCxG for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 22:33:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E9EE12004F for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 22:33:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-9c35.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-9c35.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.156.53]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id x6N5XKdx091607 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 23 Jul 2019 00:33:22 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1563860003; bh=mKS3WxNAzKZTq2Q9uHNX9WccwmaOUI1bOIJVEgUBDVA=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=o3Q56hntzdBel4x/+ivs6P0sC5zsvVUY6t9Nt7WpE0IE5akZIDSdY4d2haEty+WPv QXRMrZPNBBzOT7mm3xrUWqme6WEnRlP6Nn11mRfaJ6Q/XYrm3PNh0iEWWxhT4jlkF8 uJJTHWLiIUlKTbdbPHtDaUYTAt8usPfkGMLc46WU= To: masinter@gmail.com, "'S Moonesamy'" , "'Rob Stradling'" , art@ietf.org References: <791b33b8-4696-f69c-aca3-8838b2caafd8@sectigo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20190713054207.0bbd9b58@elandnews.com> <008901d5410d$90607b00$b1217100$@gmail.com> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <529b1f23-75e7-c426-f884-8dd07825182d@nostrum.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 01:33:20 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <008901d5410d$90607b00$b1217100$@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Against BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 05:33:41 -0000 I write the following in my role as the area director holding the BCP-190-related discuss that Larry mentions below. On 7/23/19 00:17, masinter@gmail.com wrote: > I don't understand > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-trans-rfc6962-bis/ballot/ > 5 DISCUSS on a document targeted to be Experimental where most of the > objections > don't seem to meet the criteria for raising a DISCUSS on a standards-track > document. > https://www.ietf.org/blog/discuss-criteria-iesg-review/#stand-disc > much less Experimental. > I'm especially baffled by the use of BCP 190 (which documents some > guidelines) > as somehow "blocking" anything in IESG Review. Thanks, Larry, for raising these questions. I think it's important that everyone understands the situation that has arisen, and you've done a good job of crystallizing a couple of topics that I'm sure several other people are also concerned about. Although a bit of a diversion, I do want to address your point about discuss criteria before I get into the status of BCPs in general and BCP 190 in particular (at least as I understand them; I welcome feedback if people believe I'm off-base in my assertions). While I hesitate to litigate the list of "discuss criteria" you cite -- in large part because it is self-disclaimed by language that it is merely exemplary and "cannot be an exhaustive list" -- this specific situation does have a bullet point in that list that reads, at least in spirit, on the topic at hand. To wit: > The IETF as a whole does not have consensus on the technical approach > or document. There are cases where individual working groups or areas > have forged rough consensus around a technical approach which does not > garner IETF consensus. An AD may DISCUSS a document where she or he > believes this to be the case. While the Area Director should describe > the technical area where consensus is flawed, the focus of the DISCUSS > and its resolution should be on how to forge a cross-IETF consensus. > In this specific case, the IETF wrote down consensus around the general principles of stewardship for the URI namespace, and then a working group without charter to deal with that topic came to a decision contrary to that consensus. I want to make sure that everyone involved in this conversation is clear on a relevant role that BCPs play. BCP documents have the same level of maturity and receive the same level of scrutiny as Standards Track documents. Their normative statements authoritatively govern the topic they deal with -- at least, within the confines of IETF process -- until updated or obsoleted. Normative statements in BCPs are not mere guidelines; they are the documented and carefully-considered will of the responsible community. This is the mechanism the IETF has to make durable and binding decisions. Without that ability, we would waste a significant quantity of time re-litigating topics about which we had already reached conclusions. That said, "durable" is not the same as "permanent", and it has been five years since the publication of BCP 190. It is reasonable for the community to revisit earlier decisions in the presence of additional experience. I welcome the discussion of whether a revision is warranted at this time, and encourage interested parties to present their positions politely, factually, and unemotionally. Importantly, I do not think that I am allowed to stand out of the way of what appears to be one working group deciding to set aside established IETF consensus without buy-in from the responsible stakeholders. I believe that I would be derelict in my obligations as an area director in charge of the relevant area if I were to do so. If BCP 190 needs revision, that decision needs to come out of the ART community as a whole, not out of a single SEC-area working group with a charter unrelated to URI design and ownership. I want to be ultra clear: I am not blocking this document because I feel any specific way about the provisions of BCP 190. I am blocking this document because the IETF has made a decision, and we need to either abide by it or revise it. /a From nobody Mon Jul 22 22:44:25 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86EBD120091 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 22:44:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnt-se.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jQTaU2eE7TWO for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 22:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd33.google.com (mail-io1-xd33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6BE16120041 for ; 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Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <529b1f23-75e7-c426-f884-8dd07825182d@nostrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Against BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 05:44:23 -0000 Thank you Adam, This was a great summary for somebody like me who sorta heard about the issue for the first time today. Your summary provokes a questions tho: > In this specific case, the IETF wrote down consensus around the general > principles of stewardship for the URI namespace, and then a working > group without charter to deal with that topic came to a decision > contrary to that consensus. Has there been any similar situations before involving BCP190 and how where those issues resolved? Cheers Leif From nobody Mon Jul 22 22:54:37 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECD2F1200B2 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 22:54:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CSiURIuPuL18 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 22:54:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd36.google.com (mail-io1-xd36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A63A120041 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 22:54:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd36.google.com with SMTP id j5so75139673ioj.8 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 22:54:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=TaUcEyivnkIWug0/DfsWxZLoyhLwn4BDAJ15dZlwrPA=; b=uG2vqyfhPzIHLqaw7caoRPeSdpqK7Pm29u5nMpuGwr07VQRmNomU2v3k4oVc6SLXOT 0r7nlyxDpmvMpRlVFedO7v3cXTa2l9/h3NwENUoZDm04aGx+vYT5IeF4eIuZK1jZE1M7 673flbum2UgwlDTuq8ZCTwbK4dUSx6LA8erHcTREcRYD5Rubm21/NRPcsVBJ0wMSn0Iy CD6lYP/GN8jB0U42GBDCIuARBNsDvtBx0xbCLrrZZmhSf1V5BnuSwosCZZbZjRNEceNx Lkw7OD4hvvz+Piz08WV/8ImDE0PmVXVznvFGQ+A0+dUpW9XqrDgkBpgsA0NDJOrIUeTr gWqg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=TaUcEyivnkIWug0/DfsWxZLoyhLwn4BDAJ15dZlwrPA=; b=LglYN8NoCSbmaB9EknaBwRmKH4lwzJ6CLusb/UxZTskqkb4yeLKCKt4M4x6VLs5/r5 c1YkA7FmIaEWicn4k3Ae18uW3GDZ2KzykrZUSNYPw9y1/xakGkVDNpshqKDvuq5CUcuM kJmpcim212ojf9FeMUqokm/XItkFOsv5YkGhJCSMqOeEVVgEqo+w6tDYMDq8r953Omm1 LzkYvOvqzuqn4nJ9HmalmfMGtijt6lrqlqeWfe3usyEoofk/P3Bu94WDXI15vQE1b1RN TQN2NHBKtChytI8ehIblvPQfsCkHf+rI1Ae2ZoLRf04UNxykyqbNAbjfDT34A/kbK7fj Pt8g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXgC8pXHmWmPXhr8hcT+t2U17mcTHDnmudK9ear4UJ9fhMYITzb imd2MPO7GtqwZAzDiKmNG7oHRTMSQRt2eFCwbi11za5O X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxT1dSWRxa946QR0QpXUEqJsEHgFSDldREOzXBjkMvBIXJZAfDr36jQpBm/RSSyZQ5unvMjuo1neERsMBn2sZk= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:b602:: with SMTP id g2mr68092985iof.54.1563861272535; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 22:54:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <791b33b8-4696-f69c-aca3-8838b2caafd8@sectigo.com> In-Reply-To: <791b33b8-4696-f69c-aca3-8838b2caafd8@sectigo.com> From: Rob Sayre Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 22:54:21 -0700 Message-ID: To: Rob Stradling Cc: "art@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a0aa24058e52d360" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Against BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 05:54:35 -0000 --000000000000a0aa24058e52d360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 9:46 AM Rob Stradling wrote: > ...since all modern > web servers can trivially rewrite paths to query components and back > again. > I don't think this assertion is correct. Query components don't reflect a hierarchy, they are unordered, and can be repeated. They can be rewritten to and from path segments, but not in a way that preserves their semantics. thanks, Rob --000000000000a0aa24058e52d360 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
...since all modern
web servers can trivially rewrite paths to query components and back
again.=C2=A0

I don't think this ass= ertion is correct. Query components don't reflect a hierarchy, they are= unordered, and can be repeated. They can be rewritten to and from path seg= ments, but not in a way that preserves their semantics.

thanks,
Rob

--000000000000a0aa24058e52d360-- From nobody Mon Jul 22 23:33:01 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CF771200D6 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 23:33:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.98 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.98 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N6GCUdEeZ4gR for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 23:32:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C06421200B2 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 23:32:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-9c35.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-9c35.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.156.53]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id x6N6WubU001230 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 23 Jul 2019 01:32:57 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1563863578; bh=FCBxqgYy5nThFLa0U3zzyDuc0ny8gplpUJB3cjANf6g=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=cDdklCJRJH1M6RLYxaj4Sa99moyNeO3UCfrEd99Gp3y8L4cFaAG8GAuh0ToO3+uAm Enz14LicLV7V3ye8Q27c7uPBtiRm87CnrQmF1aZNPCMG8G20ok2JlIHiUOPAchnplG IsRA2agKfLZ9lDbyiQzVfUMiaxAuWv+1Rhaqjwxc= To: Leif Johansson , art@ietf.org References: <791b33b8-4696-f69c-aca3-8838b2caafd8@sectigo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20190713054207.0bbd9b58@elandnews.com> <008901d5410d$90607b00$b1217100$@gmail.com> <529b1f23-75e7-c426-f884-8dd07825182d@nostrum.com> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 02:32:55 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Against BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 06:33:00 -0000 On 7/23/19 01:44, Leif Johansson wrote: > Thank you Adam, > > This was a great summary for somebody like me who sorta heard about > the issue for the first time today. > > Your summary provokes a questions tho: > >> In this specific case, the IETF wrote down consensus around the general >> principles of stewardship for the URI namespace, and then a working >> group without charter to deal with that topic came to a decision >> contrary to that consensus. > Has there been any similar situations before involving BCP190 and how > where those issues resolved? There have been a number of similar situations involving BCP 190, at varying phases of document development. In my time on the IESG, I can recall roughly two cases in which draft authors contacted the ART area directors to ask advice while a specification was under development in a working group, and there have been probably as many that reached IESG evaluation before the issue was identified as blocking. In the cases where the issue was discussed while still the document was under development, the documents were easily adapted to conform to the normative requirements of BCP 190. One of these discussions did form part of the impetus that eventually led to the revision of RFC 5785 (which defined .well-known) by RFC 8615, as that discussion did turn up a desire in the community to relax some of the constraints that originally existed in RFC 5785 (including the one mentioned during today's ARTAREA meeting). In the cases where the issue was only discovered in IESG review, the documents have gone back to their respective working groups for further discussion. Prior to the current conversation involving the TRANS document, the working groups whose documents were found to have BCP 190 issues made the minimal protocol changes necessary to meet its requirements. It's notable that discovering these issues earlier in the process universally had better outcomes than discovering them during IESG review. To that end, the IESG has begun the effort of compiling a list of technologies that are likely to require expert input if used outside the working groups in which core expertise resides. The final steps of this task are on my plate, and I hope to get to them shortly after I recover from the current face-to-face meeting. The hope is that we will be able to keep the chairs of various working groups apprised of this list of technologies, so that such expert input can be sought earlier in the process, when it is less likely to cause unwelcome surprises for working group participants. /a From nobody Mon Jul 22 23:59:16 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3D881202CB for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 23:59:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9UnbZdDDvAEQ for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 23:59:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd31.google.com (mail-io1-xd31.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A0852120155 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 23:59:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd31.google.com with SMTP id j6so4447590ioa.5 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 23:59:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=yF+i4Oyf+lscdxhjkIBQ7lnFHk683GD0QZ1J/M3l5BI=; b=GoEVZHVIYdj2j6aUp1VPFUG/MG/j+/2RIpyA+N1GIeCtT00HT1m0ZSmGW8tQzRXJ83 MyKTR7ES/z7s2WyY7UYDU80U3k317XrQwIi6Cfha0qyV+S7bEgscmJhp7PoG1wTSTEvy QT4tIWVra+HLYHSGyque64cFIGZT49pHKG8pOOk7eubu1Y3T2DaomBTjrpf/iLjmy3CB gjT9G1G1OG06bN42Th+YrNrwvc/NJJzW1+YzpB+NOHW9kjsZ18eQr4cMXK+PknO3trkv LZ1m3bBawr0KrlQsKTrw8fAWo6KwzdMCsDKJxaNTDj4JEwuLKoux4DVYK4CVQc2mRGZN 88Zg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=yF+i4Oyf+lscdxhjkIBQ7lnFHk683GD0QZ1J/M3l5BI=; b=Moo6DaKk6kcQtMK8c9PzpMKYH5aITOyDE6GmXUAj/04x0BMfLCd2kCI9lSibxoVgEK uwht+5Jz/GNm6ZHAEN2VwdZZt8RIPdqa7Vz8ip4OKiZLtIrCNdTuzYh8n6WEA+Ug9RuB btRPt5qCOz/TynomeXgyX+tr0iuOeEfmUukIlTqFTlCfsWegBNUMBXFucCE3EJP1KIpS PJAQuyTk7czeFy9zOW16cQJh6d/FMdYdzZ9BAmq6zpdRODNWNs8uz7dsCycdMIHWR4z3 R7eRiE5I9OnXHQayTc5iwbH7d6Qu4+S/AIFHJj9DLEGSzR0+zViNR9Oy88cjr/9vtlmG KkNw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX63RSDnDv3F7dKTHEqQGHcp1BJGhhyjqnfHJgdkUX2y3Bt1oUQ z6sRq+PD4KEFHwegrj2YaABCj1UmkoA0sD2V8UM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzwB7yxzylHen/cz0PEL4eiya+teKXUPxXB9oWo+XsxUXTFCWNjYJqCsPAwNSK2cgiA5iC+fCALqGIbXrg0DUI= X-Received: by 2002:a02:13c3:: with SMTP id 186mr76026881jaz.30.1563865146777; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 23:59:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <791b33b8-4696-f69c-aca3-8838b2caafd8@sectigo.com> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 23:58:55 -0700 Message-ID: To: Rob Stradling Cc: "art@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008ce452058e53ba26" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Against BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 06:59:14 -0000 --0000000000008ce452058e53ba26 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 10:54 PM Rob Sayre wrote: > On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 9:46 AM Rob Stradling wrote: > >> ...since all modern >> web servers can trivially rewrite paths to query components and back >> again. >> > > I don't think this assertion is correct. Query components don't reflect a > hierarchy, they are unordered, and can be repeated. They can be rewritten > to and from path segments, but not in a way that preserves their semantics. > Trying to be more constructive, I think the issue is that it's true that you can write a seemingly-simple API that treats an entire host or path below a certain level as opaque. Enacting "simple" rules of that sort can cause problems as different HTTP APIs coexist under one host, each with their own reserved suffixes, paths, or query parameters. At the very least, you've prevented the host from delegating its path space (say, for usernames). At worst, you've forced it into using different hostnames, and taking on all of the associated DNS latency and confidentiality issues. It doesn't seem like writing a BCP190-compliant API is complex, but the evidence does show that it's not the first avenue people think of. thanks, Rob --0000000000008ce452058e53ba26 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 10:54 PM Rob Sayr= e <sayrer@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 9:46 A= M Rob Stradling <ro= b@sectigo.com> wrote:
...since all modern
web servers can trivially rewrite paths to query components and back
again.=C2=A0

I don't think this ass= ertion is correct. Query components don't reflect a hierarchy, they are= unordered, and can be repeated. They can be rewritten to and from path seg= ments, but not in a way that preserves their semantics.

Trying to be more constructive, I think the = issue is that it's true that you can write a seemingly-simple API that = treats an entire host or path below a certain level as opaque.
Enacting "simple" rules of that sort can cause probl= ems as different HTTP APIs coexist under one host, each with their own rese= rved suffixes, paths, or query parameters. At the very least, you've pr= evented the host from delegating its path space (say, for usernames). At wo= rst, you've forced it into using different hostnames, and taking on all= of the associated DNS latency and confidentiality issues.

It doesn't seem like writing a BCP190-compliant API is complex= , but the evidence does show that it's not the first avenue people thin= k of.

thanks,
Rob
=C2=A0
=
--0000000000008ce452058e53ba26-- From nobody Tue Jul 23 01:55:42 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB80A12014F for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 01:55:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cridland.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KkZXVXz3BvUs for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 01:55:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x535.google.com (mail-ed1-x535.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::535]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A5DB4120145 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 01:55:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x535.google.com with SMTP id v15so43102791eds.9 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 01:55:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cridland.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=rY/J7s4giniI3PDmskWr2ivb9dYrgFN72yjs446APzQ=; b=DaM/n9NDgyGRu2ChYnqlpfGu7kfjcnOacprmhXgTPnGCDV+iQkpE8HZBymPfKrEULO dDuy82Ta9zb//3nT0H/6kFtgb4ufG8jSYdIileuj78BrlFNS3/7u7XGonXPE3ovreou5 p5eR7NQbuh5xzEojiKRhAmr7WlUlNIB0edTlI= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=rY/J7s4giniI3PDmskWr2ivb9dYrgFN72yjs446APzQ=; b=sYU18i2XqE1zJiPED5G+tZX7tV86OZPyGWc0StsldPIY0D/sTEjNqXbpTuJOKMH/Em zJj9+wldgOEwYYxVcWZil6+6riXjIXOYCgMhzUBP8IFO9dmoM0WbwQj3o62vc9ZVs9Yk xKe63/iaM2/IlWSf32+0jgC5JbFo2HJtp15H9fMxtjJvJUMr1GYfXz12fmMKrm8n+S4K wkZ3fzUIYPfln+AlVofBnVn4OlPnH7hUDa2xShHdUpC3vdLV3HqnEors4gDghnK5IuxC CspJ40MEaiUQOzydcxCEz4Biqsy44Cir8bJo+F2nkGggIyGba8j0LGLbMXiwEHIGRP/J NDzA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUVabyvi16JJCnmbnuFVlxtdsDGxJFVn8N/Sm+ChnE9u6+Y9AXh XdbQvmOAM59l43deqwQTqte+rmPPTmhZyEatzgx+a6kCWWc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzwvCBdOGxyqkrffg88ZojkH9xfRx2bsAVPDOtKlQc+qFd+poDlOYbBziMia1hSmDl1bh2/jZL3HbKMlbtl3Jw= X-Received: by 2002:a50:b875:: with SMTP id k50mr65182610ede.232.1563872137012; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 01:55:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20190720050445.925A852550A@ary.qy> In-Reply-To: <20190720050445.925A852550A@ary.qy> From: Dave Cridland Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:55:25 +0100 Message-ID: To: John Levine Cc: "General Area Review Team (gen-art@ietf.org)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000337b2e058e555b99" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 08:55:41 -0000 --000000000000337b2e058e555b99 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, 20 Jul 2019 at 06:04, John Levine wrote: > In article b6Ak49HuPVgta6zwg@mail.gmail.com> you write: > >I'm not saying that additional information isn't needed, but it'd be nice > >to be able to use SRV alongside. > > There are places where, say, mailboxes with local parts starting with > A-M are on one IMAP server and those starting with N-Z are on another. > It's hard to see how you could do that with SRV records tied to the > domain. > > Sure. I'm just thinking that anywhere you say "IMAP server" we'd put an SRV resolution. > >The Thunderbird config would need to be adapted anyway; it's not easily > >extensible, due to not using XML namespaces, for one thing. > > It definitely needs extensions. > > s/extensions/extensibility/ but yes. Dave. --000000000000337b2e058e555b99 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sat, 20 Jul 2019 at 06:04, John Le= vine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:<= br>
In article <C= AKHUCzzS+k_DUwaBcvTH_68G4JS_6UHA=3Db6Ak49HuPVgta6zwg@mail.gmail.com> you = write:
>I'm not saying that additional information isn't needed, but it= 'd be nice
>to be able to use SRV alongside.

There are places where, say, mailboxes with local parts starting with
A-M are on one IMAP server and those starting with N-Z are on another.
It's hard to see how you could do that with SRV records tied to the
domain.


Sure. I'm just thinking that anywh= ere you say "IMAP server" we'd put an SRV resolution.
=C2=A0
>The Thunderbird config would need to be adapted anyway; it's not ea= sily
>extensible, due to not using XML namespaces, for one thing.

It definitely needs extensions.


s/extensions/extensibility/ but yes.

Dave.=C2=A0
--000000000000337b2e058e555b99-- From nobody Tue Jul 23 03:15:20 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17CBF1201A2 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 03:15:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.697 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.697 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=opendkim.org header.b=bOKWFl6p; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=elandsys.com header.b=uAE8WHbH Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SZA9MGekD2-w for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 03:15:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7B6012019F for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 03:15:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DESKTOP-K6V9C2L.elandsys.com ([102.115.189.201]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id x6NAF1iY004940 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 23 Jul 2019 03:15:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1563876914; x=1563963314; bh=pUFCqFiGo0yEbdmR5pIMF24MdX5Tadlipt3pqKLOtKc=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=bOKWFl6pwZ03tCePCBAs2nuXLHjjowFpuO+auwrU2ZjUa4gjUABx9cXI36BC+yg4E O4chr4Vs3f36EK1mviJjdmGU7wgrICrXJIfqI1ragEq5UejcrLMALvKB6zK+2uyEB3 A0xtb1zpsqDR7kp94r8X2Zkd5mAikUYssyUQxdXA= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1563876914; x=1563963314; i=@elandsys.com; bh=pUFCqFiGo0yEbdmR5pIMF24MdX5Tadlipt3pqKLOtKc=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=uAE8WHbH9OITg9NVQHGwZq8bM3jJLeq0phEnjwO3q7AXTv7RpTyUcinsJznkaBKvx Is1xlcLRu/+WXlj8T8VmNtc54gCYBdDCIlUcABP4agp7Z98xkjvkQwVj42rgrO1Cpt NChOUAKA+gaJPNtbJMkmfrCkjWnPs2w2aQS0D5LI= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20190723025131.0bdbacf8@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 03:14:05 -0700 To: masinter@gmail.com, art@ietf.org From: S Moonesamy Cc: "Henry S. Thompson" In-Reply-To: <008901d5410d$90607b00$b1217100$@gmail.com> References: <791b33b8-4696-f69c-aca3-8838b2caafd8@sectigo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20190713054207.0bbd9b58@elandnews.com> <008901d5410d$90607b00$b1217100$@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Against BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 10:15:18 -0000 Hi Larry, At 09:17 PM 22-07-2019, masinter@gmail.com wrote: >I don't understand >https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-trans-rfc6962-bis/ballot/ >5 DISCUSS on a document targeted to be Experimental where most of the >objections don't seem to meet the criteria for raising a DISCUSS on >a standards-track >document. The TRANS Working Group set a milestone for December 2015. After four years, the work item for that is still not in accordance with the Working Group Charter [1], i.e. standards-track. I suggest reading the Document Shepherd write-up. I would like to thank Henry for reminding me about the BCP 56 update. I was trying to remember where this case may fit; it might be "substrate". Regards, S. Moonesamy 1. https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/trans/about/ From nobody Tue Jul 23 03:25:46 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71F5E1201D4 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 03:25:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y39V2cRAe6Ud for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 03:25:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 96AC61201CE for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 03:25:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from client-0072.vpn.uni-bremen.de (client-0072.vpn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.107.72]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 45tF4442Jxz102C; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 12:25:40 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <8872cc5c-34c5-845c-c930-3a7f0e3501f2@nostrum.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 06:25:39 -0400 Cc: art@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 585570337.191116-6e873c29f0fb9e6ac98441841cbbf9b3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <422255D5-FD8A-48D8-8442-1A13E3E7B884@tzi.org> <8872cc5c-34c5-845c-c930-3a7f0e3501f2@nostrum.com> To: Adam Roach X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] BCP190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 10:25:44 -0000 Hi Adam, On Jul 22, 2019, at 23:57, Adam Roach wrote: >=20 > On 7/22/19 19:15, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> BCP190 is out of scope for protocols that define an entire web = server. >=20 >=20 > Without weighing in on whether this statement is something I agree = with, I want to point out that it isn=E2=80=99t applicable to the topic = at hand: discussions in TRANS have specifically referred to the origins = that CT logs are hosted on as "multi-tenant." Apparently, I need to read up on TRANS. =20 But given that we are now discussing BCP190, I wouldn=E2=80=99t mind if = you (and other people who have thought a lot about BCP190) could take a = position on my statement (which includes another half, i.e., that BCP190 = is alive and well in the other cases). Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Tue Jul 23 05:37:28 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA22B1202BD; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 05:37:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t7nBTPqFZFus; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 05:37:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 268FD1202E4; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 05:37:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=JcK-T100) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1hpu2f-0003FK-1p; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 08:37:17 -0400 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 08:37:16 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: art@ietf.org cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <77F8C1C2AAB5AE251285436F@[172.20.2.211]> In-Reply-To: References: <791b33b8-4696-f69c-aca3-8838b2caafd8@sectigo.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: ::1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: [art] BCP 190, draft-nottingham-for-the-users, and a generalization X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 12:37:26 -0000 (copying architecture-discuss because the comment I'm about to make is an architectural issue and because draft-nottingham-for-the-users is under discussion there.) A late colleague, much loved by some of us, used to claim (much more elegantly than I can manage) that one of the reasons the ARPANET and then the Internet protocols had succeeded and much of what was seen as competitive alternatives had not, was that our efforts focused on pragmatic, working protocols and implementations. The other folks had developed a culture of formalisms, models, and stated design principles. They then tried to develop protocols that fit into the boxes and categories of those formalisms, models, and design principles. When they discovered that something didn't fit, they needed to either invent kludges or other ways of getting square pegs into round holes, go back and revise models and guidance before moving forward, or consider and make exceptions (which often required first figuring out how to make an exception and developing procedures for that). One difficulty is that the above can waste a lot of time. Another is that it can distort protocol design, if only because forcing square pegs into round holes tends to be hard on both the pegs and the holes. In many or most fields of application, the nature of engineering involves seeing and understanding a range of tradeoffs and then doing design work that reflects a carefully-chosen balance among them. Give design elegance absolute priority over structural issues and buildings and bridges fall down. IMO, we need to think, and keep thinking, about systems and tradeoffs. That, in turn, means that statements like these that can be interpreted in absolute terms, even if we mostly agree with them, should be packaged as general guidelines and not BCPs to which everything done in the future is required to either conform or to try to figure out how to appeal to a higher authority. I'm not at all convinced that the proposal that was summarized an ARTAREA yesterday and that is seen as requiring an exception to BCP 190 is a good idea. But I think our time would be better spent, and the Internet more efficiently made better, discussing the strengths, weaknesses, and alternatives to that idea rather than debating the reach and appropriateness of BCP 190 under various circumstances. Long term and more generally, I think that suggests seeing BCP 190 not as a particular set of principles and rules but as an example of something we don't want to do to ourselves again as a BCP (or as something that gets enough of an IAB stamp of approval that people will later argue MUST (or SHOULD) be conformed to. Again, restated as general guidance with the assumption that there will be exceptions and cases not considered, I don't have much of a problem. If that shoe fits draft-nottingham-for-the-users, so be it. john p.s. I don't mean to pick on Mark here. While these two documents coming up at the same time was handy, I think the problem is general and that there are far worse examples (examples of which he is not an author) than either of them. From nobody Tue Jul 23 05:54:46 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 917BD120119 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 05:54:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, SUBJ_ALL_CAPS=0.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AqE3CgX2yH9e for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 05:54:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webmail.multi.fi (webmail.multi.fi [85.134.37.159]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 89DAC12023E for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 05:54:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webmail.multi.fi (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by webmail.multi.fi (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E2E6180009F for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 15:54:39 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [109.240.234.13] ([109.240.234.13]) by webmail.multi.fi (Horde Framework) with HTTPS; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 15:54:39 +0300 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 15:54:39 +0300 Message-ID: <20190723155439.Horde.dHbtgz6i3J9XENDISknqEq_@webmail.multi.fi> From: Ggh To: art@ietf.org User-Agent: Horde Application Framework 5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; DelSp=Yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Archived-At: Subject: [art] RSS1/RSS2/ATOM/ P2P X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 12:54:45 -0000 Dear All, My name is Greg, and I am new to this list. I have spent some time (a few years) using RSS on the client side, and also server side. I would like to invite all of you to have a constructive critisized discussion regarding RSS1/Atom/RSS2+ and the concept of P2P(Peer to Peer) using them. RSS is not new as such, however the idea of linking RSS-nodes/clients together, the p2p way handling RSS items and feeds, is perhaps. The word is free, lets bounce some ideas forth and back. Thank you, br, Greg Tell me, and I forget. Ask me, and I discover... From nobody Tue Jul 23 08:03:16 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9E441202BF for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 08:03:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.979 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.979 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id braZdcEcgSkP for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 08:03:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5DA72120344 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 08:03:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Orochi.local ([196.52.21.210]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id x6NF31LH084572 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 23 Jul 2019 10:03:03 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1563894183; bh=a+LB7TRdLYiy9/w1IbsuQ/BF7PhM/XLA45qcstcHSUg=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=oiW5/zzLYDhlh+wgGO2Vn+77tdwZsU9UxpVMwFjwlAudk4hbMjvC1OE92m3bj4VlD T6lau+COnfm6RC8wynYC2aN56yBQCfdQehTaNvurWaahRWQFUnE3J18Yv889bAJvvD hXh/hVDxLEdjMszkzyAaO2uDVttOJeP1QB4oh43s= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [196.52.21.210] claimed to be Orochi.local To: Carsten Bormann Cc: art@ietf.org References: <422255D5-FD8A-48D8-8442-1A13E3E7B884@tzi.org> <8872cc5c-34c5-845c-c930-3a7f0e3501f2@nostrum.com> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 11:03:00 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] BCP190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 15:03:15 -0000 On 7/23/19 06:25, Carsten Bormann wrote: > Hi Adam, > > On Jul 22, 2019, at 23:57, Adam Roach wrote: >> On 7/22/19 19:15, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>> BCP190 is out of scope for protocols that define an entire web server. >> >> Without weighing in on whether this statement is something I agree with, I want to point out that it isn’t applicable to the topic at hand: discussions in TRANS have specifically referred to the origins that CT logs are hosted on as "multi-tenant." > Apparently, I need to read up on TRANS. > > But given that we are now discussing BCP190, I wouldn’t mind if you (and other people who have thought a lot about BCP190) could take a position on my statement (which includes another half, i.e., that BCP190 is alive and well in the other cases). While I do have opinions here, I'm presently trying to get input from the community rather than influence the conversation. I may weigh in on the topic later; but for now, I don't want to push one way or the other. /a From nobody Tue Jul 23 08:20:03 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 379C3120261 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 08:19:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nomountain-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tqvIffvujdb1 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 08:19:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x834.google.com (mail-qt1-x834.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::834]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DFEF612038C for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 08:19:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x834.google.com with SMTP id w17so42274740qto.10 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 08:19:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nomountain-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:to:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=gMBiIxUwki9HgooqzFaLJcYL/xaeZBBdNTmETIO30wA=; b=piIPxvx189qbuS179ZcUehVusrGV8z5A5b+dZaQ3MV34z9PkiKJ6mZFpYGR29x3Fpi xcHYAFuZgrnP5FjUGHN0npf/k9/OZ68fwNsjiko0HAyiKLotWkWmIVGd+Yq7/u4EOKFg AW7gnGjb9WumiIzM0/bBtHOfYigF4sXXFfylTq2BCSdploW2jnx08WveOymQjtR0pDTX dpzKRdDuw+5cayphI41/XGUeBb617ScwBqXBcLb0ok9q4uUz7qSBOKnwpcMolYpx5HJN QgbJHzLzyVooy0KP36+TaftPD2iJTr+9YctzPxlob1NstxTDEei8OrF6Uv68esEQFW/T t0HA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=gMBiIxUwki9HgooqzFaLJcYL/xaeZBBdNTmETIO30wA=; 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prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFppZ0gBEADFwxAi5szDOsM/6+CH4pbYTX7D+2gjLY4xEE7ydQcAF1WVLvcWXrpZM0GO /eA4N1PJ+OT5o8o9zVr7izMJkiLwcnQmxHdlYgZ9E+Cm8hDtMyEPBQwsYTkE5kpbGCmBAZ+W rHNHjvDg366uZQHzJejenB1/V4+rxMZs1Ak34Az2MVOz9Doecaiadpw3NpH3+1VXY/qilqnM lznINSANqD0ktxB/CVKjxl3/K5JnVnLp0h2kiUqt19hQPX2JmLcgaHzu+Ceb34/HZWhs0CiF c4auhQ3A9PcccOprQh6IGW1xo6RP3OEbeRFqeovgBWS+DIWzMIM0a3G2LDid0889QYwEv0zZ RPDCcF3g15mlkeUUmwKQ6eAagPyTqLtTiOKULqy9bQahyX2eqlySrF+HqlwGeNoG+A4l1Z2Y S7NCBLPIzUk2RuSKMBaKw86ORzvg2Advrw4bdv7kbDkArGzywky61SEB/q+GqR466mekXx2F O+m8RuoSnWrBsKvD/bhELHcneorIBleGz+VL7i5adU0rIydG3jPTfUeXoCZIeNx1LannxnAR ihKdh5+FE26WiiK6VmZWkvFjaPFwWGjvAsi82Pd9QgHhnG/XzINpXw/3HF4wtBTU5nIExMzC +FbJxCPq1kXpqSxJqg7hgUFvD5jUD9lpN5Br/S2dUgJj95bbPQARAQABtCxNZWxpbmRhIFNo b3JlIDxtZWxpbmRhLnNob3JlQG5vbW91bnRhaW4ubmV0PokCVAQTAQoAPgIbAwUJCWdTAAUL CQgHAwUVCgkICwUWAgMBAAIeAQIXgBYhBE9oLZMqF5b4IPI0wN+4kXKadtuPBQJaaXRaAAoJ EN+4kXKadtuPVioP/3nVzx33yjiEtqLKTEHwofnLT15CV5wAcGa0DTbqgiomVKzSRkkhbF3Z KIHYrnjVpTcYJuW+PmFSIjNizNVr+vvjNP6ptRqx5orWmK4EBe/B9mrpmIshxUwkYr46uwN4 h06xJS3KCzhfhSsnesH5vlGBkUod0+nQhbSLyLRpxmaKaeAl4dxFSBLU0vUJMLH8PXTZVNof 5Yo+ThqCzu1pwOkBQ8gST2J6zdy4PjU9ENQ9RLAamlAG/6rGHEKLFcnUpEg7Tcu1hSzAsqR8 kjX2Prpu4A9DyLCjTOvfOPQa8WjZy18ZdYOxuPxdrTazeCRVJIvYRflhBCZb744jhMyfAiSW eckwRBVSCnBuvWBJl9Ua1wp8SOUXXhgGI8WGvSkvul6kKSkHQKDggd4cojAhxWLfvmjxn5pz 0BNbvrEBGqgWwO1ZMuJpmv3P8YK5Aytsl85NZoMMUJIDxEQhBUgYz5QTQANBKPi8RsfOntho rhzXLqnPPQcE4Xf9O9XIyy077F0JoyiPx74Zsl1dTxmT73pezpfhKUQR7/QlmJ/FAADpb6SO V0tlgBtR6FAZToBYPDiss57AcKM1zzyJ7sHIZkxQelykYSet6hp2WGcwMXQveWqFMQ4fiGQx XNEPO+KZKNj+0sfINzSLP88O5TniM/l/JrjZZNT/lVAQDTdkCBGyuQINBFppZ0gBEACgZuM1 8ghzSuhuv+n0kWyWCeEWrx9Ey03EgFj5alBt55+OLv3dOsdyBHJxjtd0cZS1XaKZlgr1YZ0O pQNv/Wyy8uSW2BZ6hyG1SKN9/1MmfJLNnjjxaBQP4yaMwDdS3wX7hoWY19IpVPZHYDR35FAg SnG/s6we+IOITM1TJoOJs4+ygeK5dC7LfRoj+lkEHYrTcglYVuwsyK2FNz/sF8kJW1fEZHM6 6phSbhCvwbECWbb4eDGXbKZY92W1RTQ5U5td8DMLXyYipQphrcoeRXpb18DbOnE0WwIQV0yB gc/rTiUt/wVjasd1RrsCPBQC/uJ+ZHknvr2MoxIWBBsRtKYHG66aOL+nDV8X1miuF6j4cztv gmdqrwPHpAKVxhfwd/G4suNBunYw4/kAV9b2+eidX5em3NtPPNl/qNjsmEHQGn/5JKRHRvQs 0yuigXDhN2N0keoHrbGCE8kyA/d83L7E9d95hsf3JxpRzmeaTze+NpcIaX5uXdKOaCBjLtx1 tOrDA4XX7Y3nY+waKZYa3RvC7yulFJiKfYWDSriWeQXcXj06p8H6vF6sy9LeX9xRRjTI7qDH FxwuMQIKGqgufXtxu0pxxcMqXTEUPZnxUWUvuFjjYvEmtO92+Ot/NuotV8JvRPwg2OnYjMJo dU1X7hzEs8djtgZG+t3FEGK3i1EJUQARAQABiQI8BBgBCgAmFiEET2gtkyoXlvgg8jTA37iR cpp2248FAlppZ0gCGwwFCQlnUwAACgkQ37iRcpp2248krg/9H896KtAQCAV0RcV3QqZ75iY5 pCxpRyxAaR0PjE5jiYV5gUHPCKtr9UPZt4Bi+bzNLQ2KJK6Rx4XNf5lQWopEo1IxtOiFPjkr QIpNkYmFWyOGpKpSIDhgsJpswZqxPDLpo+59GNlSUG6v3sMAnx+Gvtvqczkvg6UPDN/JYK75 BIGoCGZMyor1B0EmRYj98LdwjT95dQZXjZvWBDeIx+NxUZKoA7AlR/xgsN3PHGq4SApMLL0R /qbiLIzUPnTPt5sBs0peflVvMrtgIMiZ9FdYPE+VWy5+X2AmeFg6Zl5W76HQUP6eYZQV5abZ +iiW9lY1TmqsqpTIDu/ZMy7pLknxV5E1vQy+wsihluDYydaQ4HWoNaY7QFb+x7TsvjJRi+cH 7By4jxohTWUuaukuMmT0eEaesWJSraAmxsffqJwDpsi0chZskuXjEm9gX6rY7MhzOZl7Vz9F +6MYTtTmT1mpkLAMWf1/JuKUCfnSAHRlDxUOAG6QSJoHWAGqYy3XiF9bN63yQ6xllloSbbMv P9VW0e/iFKMKEIvfIvAg0IrlPcfKAGuuT1axwIU7da/N7LOcXyDDSEUuSzvXL/BkWyjxuLzd LY6eTvC6ZT/fA5iS/PAUj0WbrWNrHQtQ5OY2+al2v6JdLu/w6IZJCBpTosOAOzzmre+31fk1 HKwqd9xRxC8= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 11:19:43 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20190723025131.0bdbacf8@elandnews.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="AbBarRPbe3VL3XFkS7nhuqTZTpvJzbSg6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Against BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 15:19:56 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --AbBarRPbe3VL3XFkS7nhuqTZTpvJzbSg6 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="qRdriePjloBiZLoxJb6PUo6MfJvHt8o7R"; protected-headers="v1" From: Melinda Shore To: art@ietf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [art] Against BCP 190 References: <791b33b8-4696-f69c-aca3-8838b2caafd8@sectigo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20190713054207.0bbd9b58@elandnews.com> <008901d5410d$90607b00$b1217100$@gmail.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20190723025131.0bdbacf8@elandnews.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20190723025131.0bdbacf8@elandnews.com> --qRdriePjloBiZLoxJb6PUo6MfJvHt8o7R Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7/23/19 6:14 AM, S Moonesamy wrote: > The TRANS Working Group set a milestone for December 2015.=C2=A0 After = four > years, the work item for that is still not in accordance with the > Working Group Charter [1], i.e. standards-track.=20 By way of a little history and context, 6962 was published as an independent submission as an experimental standard. The goal for trans was to update the protocol through the IETF consensus process on the standards track. However, because 6962-bis has been so difficult to get through the process it's been badly delayed, which has led to implementation delays as well. Log operators have said that they intend to move to the revised protocol within a few years but in the meantime without implementation experience it became clear that it was appropriate to publish -bis as an experimental standard, as well, and we have consensus from the working group and our AD (who, at the time of the decision, was EKR). Melinda --=20 Software longa, hardware brevis PGP key fingerprint 4F68 2D93 2A17 96F8 20F2 34C0 DFB8 9172 9A76 DB8F --qRdriePjloBiZLoxJb6PUo6MfJvHt8o7R-- --AbBarRPbe3VL3XFkS7nhuqTZTpvJzbSg6 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEET2gtkyoXlvgg8jTA37iRcpp2248FAl03JY8ACgkQ37iRcpp2 24+JJA/+Oq5rvo48tpk9keSefCQp6tytUsYoX4D/XT1W9L96XBU6N+9OW62Snyu3 jH+DftVXgS9FEDTp3B1+xoBeyC5eEV/ttUkgWbtj3ldfOxnIbB75q1JqDSKgqUTb thEjB266jzSEh5uasFAvoL0Nhdp1tj6XV0lScEdlSY1AUKrfBHmV2o5HNy0FBHhC AKAF6Pkq5Cuga5s402T76zfJ5ag7r+jB2K2igYkgjw14Y1ojasis0nGpzRZofEH8 TTT3Vw0/3LRySAZ/l3GsnIwvCL+r62ybyuGhV1fHvfaGdkLukcBEW7jkAt7JXmLg xsg1bTsdPSdM86e1eRGHW0UcITsvXuDl5GBmDIPQMwOGn3Fkra/Tkrkbcwqvzbt9 V6iNhzt/ROmJgn39iRaqrrmZx+IVVf3xIyFtZtkRpex5w6i1vyFF40gRqc+lefvB 3byEqjrIuYhxuu02b1VdXUr6wPL2BkrMdwNOki2ZiYPXABsySCEX0vt4yWlBSc5D V/civjFyoIUTYNLNpDSH6fpgy5D2Jl4iEX8aFzr7ghYppVMo+McQQI3ajpr6scJ5 /Z91NGbR0u5RAfHB78Fhrk3O8Bo4IHhlQflUQBktcke18Dz5KDOl8ePNlmLZnutZ fGL+6lNjPQWCrshXvqg59T5mFqkd38UhIOzGSvINf4vE40PBVM8= =gLNx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --AbBarRPbe3VL3XFkS7nhuqTZTpvJzbSg6-- From nobody Tue Jul 23 08:21:27 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 697291201AF for ; 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Tue, 23 Jul 2019 16:21:10 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qG22aPDzAXhq; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 16:21:09 +0100 (IST) Received: from [31.133.133.0] (dhcp-8500.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.133.0]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B7AEEBE56; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 16:21:08 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1563895269; bh=2mMXmoT5tGLjy2F2yzQzaRjOH370AcfodTlWEI2tuHo=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=r65DHZeOa/xG+okEip694NPFomeKiTlz+4ikP5QTcalsS+/YS4wXtSAiuOX8X2D76 8CLDGMNpCrNS2+Q9OvB60Z2VONmjD1Rznjr1JBvnNZNK6TWlvGYpXlp6VmHUtYPEcH umaHLiH8eRdAoPsQCBJpF24X3NFU72JfBP0uYIco= To: Adam Roach , Carsten Bormann Cc: art@ietf.org References: <422255D5-FD8A-48D8-8442-1A13E3E7B884@tzi.org> <8872cc5c-34c5-845c-c930-3a7f0e3501f2@nostrum.com> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; 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Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="GKiGkhaWxx1WbaxFoJ9TAT5lqIVwOGbf3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] BCP190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 15:21:26 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --GKiGkhaWxx1WbaxFoJ9TAT5lqIVwOGbf3 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="eAVT1TZN2p4XMbIH4CMGTZsn8hG3cgs78"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Adam Roach , Carsten Bormann Cc: art@ietf.org Message-ID: <52b99182-686d-4c12-9a3a-24dc8d696c73@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [art] BCP190 References: <422255D5-FD8A-48D8-8442-1A13E3E7B884@tzi.org> <8872cc5c-34c5-845c-c930-3a7f0e3501f2@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: --eAVT1TZN2p4XMbIH4CMGTZsn8hG3cgs78 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------B5AFC38C0A8ED1E14F0F2D4B" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B5AFC38C0A8ED1E14F0F2D4B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 23/07/2019 16:03, Adam Roach wrote: > While I do have opinions here, I'm presently trying to get input from > the community rather than influence the conversation. I may weigh in on= > the topic later; but for now, I don't want to push one way or the other= =2E On the general topic, I don't think it's realistic nor wise to try always strictly enforce BCPs. BCP107 is a fine case in point - attempts by the SEC ADs over the years (including this former instance of the animal;-) haven't IMO made the Internet better in most cases - some yes, but mostly not, and while the general guidance is correct, being too strict with it is not, in the end, a good plan. Specific to trans, there are not millions of CT logs in the world, and nor should there be and nor will there be. We're talking a handful. So I do not think the problems that BCP190 attempts to mitigate apply here really. So, in this case, I'd say give 'em a pass and let the current deployed scheme continue to be used. IIRC URL handling is pretty much as was done in the deployed and very widely used RFC6962, which has made the Internet better in a fairly significant manner IMO. Adding a note that they're being a bit naughty would be fine. Cheers, S. 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(amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnt-se.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wrzjSCaRC-Yf for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 08:29:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x833.google.com (mail-qt1-x833.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::833]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2F43E1203CE for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 08:29:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x833.google.com with SMTP id l9so42315310qtu.6 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 08:29:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnt-se.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=to:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt:subject:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=WmwmFy+y1PyiOw3lIX06O/Eu3pb2aNf1KHsV7rC0cXE=; 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([2001:67c:370:128:a8ff:b295:75a9:1614]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f132sm18307878qke.88.2019.07.23.08.29.01 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 23 Jul 2019 08:29:01 -0700 (PDT) To: Adam Roach , art@ietf.org References: <791b33b8-4696-f69c-aca3-8838b2caafd8@sectigo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20190713054207.0bbd9b58@elandnews.com> <008901d5410d$90607b00$b1217100$@gmail.com> <529b1f23-75e7-c426-f884-8dd07825182d@nostrum.com> From: Leif Johansson Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=leifj@mnt.se; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQGiBD7DfnwRBADpIpOw6bXfx2Yo3vac/j5WzVcWNZKuiYc4uuFnBYxH8zTA5cdwytuOYNte cX1yrPgmObfPVU0EFktdBMFgLE5TNRUMeJZTmAl3QYDm8N32SeSUEb6GPFsUTGgxsCW3GVAo q6DBopKqhR9HT0+crQakbc7XkS4FjeBWiXjuNf/IqwCgyoa2Qfq8UdjbcH+DRGzPnRTeqzEE ALIEsCzDp4HQqXqqNLCoExbgmCrEHvnqFmilCHJVnyuY8LXmcpq2uwJaiIdsTqLeQ8WrMxWg mZc6F9QSdLP6MVZT3v+5OqOZMUDsu4nGom3HH+tG238vMSEF+klGdrI0wdscrY+28Oshjhqj 4FZxCwdNU9RTU8xQ9IoObiEo1yOHBADK9a5GhkLT+d2cb48orETGtG7i//HOnstouw/TmEUX reZPtT6wpIdN9Jf3W80GA6A34VEGA/I+/5e+9nFvINpLvEF2ghJBH+sWwQ8EXpo0M/yir9oG eJI7gpOHRj5Mq9uqFG0wcamInuWgbMP1cefjXusHbHyDFKr7ydWSsZHqXrQdTGVpZiBKb2hh bnNzb24gPGxlaWZqQG1udC5zZT6IYAQTEQIAIAUCSnC8wwIbIwYLCQgHAwIEFQIIAwQWAgMB Ah4BAheAAAoJEPCcfBbWzGZ3x8MAnimIMTFOH4LLfp8bQnSPWm6BQyA6AKCk4S46++PpqtTM 0wIZ+kuYaBtky7kCDQQ+w36FEAgAr1zK1qIIXmoeEqFulgFi17FRpSibNwwge9bkG2+IO7MO m4Ih+f4CRkqaP5U5diiWb4nyQc/Yqzf3TTSE+CH0ghvDCwfZHrzUsVl9t57S2RFKaQhDUUw3 lz0TgKN66z1IRnQEARuz9PFd96pIhLaJBOn0e55Cu5qqJVwGpst3+I3jqT/cxjymRxPz2O6R 9k/ZOOiOGROZYAjNHKcdoeBr7OaIHcPRCi1R8MBKE4HOK1SwaVvs26Fd2enixIOBmyFTkrue 3VgaAd3zrJauD0qa/u5y2kGEyFFJwNsKnoX0aCmNNIG+aKvnSCWfba8bmYOAsbxS2lo4MKmu DM0rrVyLhwADBQf/VzM77aviZ3Ir7qXj0uV/62wyrg8/5flXl8XjuATewD+hTaux1lg5LgPU 9cokMHYHrTsnp79nhEB9qOpsQLX+npae7a27x3zyqLP0V7neyKy1ycuBI9KU9B3ivgSMRlKR 91GcmUpRnKiSnxPYNtq018mY72YYHCpfAh0OOUA88bxbYIuF5cv9dYyOBhNEkI8xB1VOWev1 CPkPb0DwDABHdOBq9e0hT3OUOaat2JPwCEHU2NTGsYFuZRysq8xnxFgHd00+h2OJZ50UYVpB jDxaCj5gvHHFFnmfCLD5VqjEJGi4k2znZHg67i2pw0f5BSq8fsfdUML35LzL/aaZPMzlg4hG BBgRAgAGBQI+w36FAAoJEPCcfBbWzGZ3djcAnAxF3084vKlsRNGcyj/rn5lA4Q+nAKCnjZYX snFG51wbu8OI88aj3LJE5w== Message-ID: <1e6e3567-59d8-b868-4917-603b848ae984@mnt.se> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 17:28:59 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Against BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 15:29:15 -0000 On 2019-07-23 08:32, Adam Roach wrote: > On 7/23/19 01:44, Leif Johansson wrote: >> Thank you Adam, >> >> This was a great summary for somebody like me who sorta heard about >> the issue for the first time today. >> >> Your summary provokes a questions tho: >> >>> In this specific case, the IETF wrote down consensus around the general >>> principles of stewardship for the URI namespace, and then a working >>> group without charter to deal with that topic came to a decision >>> contrary to that consensus. >> Has there been any similar situations before involving BCP190 and how >> where those issues resolved? > > > There have been a number of similar situations involving BCP 190, at > varying phases of document development. In my time on the IESG, I can > recall roughly two cases in which draft authors contacted the ART area > directors to ask advice while a specification was under development in a > working group, and there have been probably as many that reached IESG > evaluation before the issue was identified as blocking. > > In the cases where the issue was discussed while still the document was > under development, the documents were easily adapted to conform to the > normative requirements of BCP 190. One of these discussions did form > part of the impetus that eventually led to the revision of RFC 5785 > (which defined .well-known) by RFC 8615, as that discussion did turn up > a desire in the community to relax some of the constraints that > originally existed in RFC 5785 (including the one mentioned during > today's ARTAREA meeting). > > In the cases where the issue was only discovered in IESG review, the > documents have gone back to their respective working groups for further > discussion. Prior to the current conversation involving the TRANS > document, the working groups whose documents were found to have BCP 190 > issues made the minimal protocol changes necessary to meet its > requirements. > > It's notable that discovering these issues earlier in the process > universally had better outcomes than discovering them during IESG > review. To that end, the IESG has begun the effort of compiling a list > of technologies that are likely to require expert input if used outside > the working groups in which core expertise resides. The final steps of > this task are on my plate, and I hope to get to them shortly after I > recover from the current face-to-face meeting. The hope is that we will > be able to keep the chairs of various working groups apprised of this > list of technologies, so that such expert input can be sought earlier in > the process, when it is less likely to cause unwelcome surprises for > working group participants. > > /a > Thank you, that is very helpful. I am having trouble articulating the sense of unease I am feeling over this issue... The best I can muster right now is this: Reading section 2.3 of BCP190 I see nothing whatsoever that speaks to the interoperability concerns that motivate the normative language in that (or for that matter any other) section of BCP190. In other words: what parts of the web will crash and burn as the result of CT having an API that specifies a uri structure outside .well-known? I'm sure there is a perfectly reasonable answer to that question. Maybe this understanding is what the CT WG needs in order to get past this issue?? Cheers Leif From nobody Tue Jul 23 08:31:22 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A3EC120332; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 08:31:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W2ZX7suFnpSq; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 08:31:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC35A1203C2; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 08:31:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Orochi.local ([196.52.21.210]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id x6NFUxQW089167 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 23 Jul 2019 10:31:01 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1563895862; bh=Auuk9/w0YD/a4CFy0LpKf2CIn+tJKDBdNiNUSrorW4o=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=UldvqHbV/meVGZQOFwlNsqzjopRFneWBziE0QP1MMSrjgskA6AX2kADpIVgvKsuqw W/giERWbwWYbJkfLdEE1XPyebmw3IwJCcOVzQyrUNpn9vVoOhv9UT1cV9vvDURb2HX m6CmFBX8Dstc6TJMvisArIOP/o3qswx9THN9Zm5o= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [196.52.21.210] claimed to be Orochi.local To: John C Klensin , art@ietf.org Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org References: <791b33b8-4696-f69c-aca3-8838b2caafd8@sectigo.com> <77F8C1C2AAB5AE251285436F@[172.20.2.211]> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <30deb3a8-c24f-1f38-2701-aa1d68b6adba@nostrum.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 11:30:59 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <77F8C1C2AAB5AE251285436F@[172.20.2.211]> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------39D2DF7535A0E067A5857273" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] BCP 190, draft-nottingham-for-the-users, and a generalization X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 15:31:13 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------39D2DF7535A0E067A5857273 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John -- It's going to take a while for me to formulate my thoughts around what you say below. To make sure I understand the class of constraints you're concerned about below, can you clarify whether you think they apply to: * Documents like BCP 200, RFC 2804, and BCP 188? * Documents like BCP 9 and BCP 92? * Documents like BCP 25, BCP 54, and BCP 83? You might see an unstated agenda in the categories of documents I list above, so I'll state it explicitly: in the general case, one person's important protections against a tragedy of the commons is another person's annoying impediment to be ignored and defeated. I get that not all of the above read on protocol design; but they do share the common feature that they've gone through the IETF consensus process (at least to the degree that such a process existed at the time of their respective publications). If we're going to carefully parse out the meanings of some of them as the will of the community while treating others as light guidelines to be ignored when they become cumbersome, we're going to need to agree on a pretty bright line that divides those categories. /a On 7/23/19 08:37, John C Klensin wrote: > (copying architecture-discuss because the comment I'm about to > make is an architectural issue and because > draft-nottingham-for-the-users is under discussion there.) > > > A late colleague, much loved by some of us, used to claim (much > more elegantly than I can manage) that one of the reasons the > ARPANET and then the Internet protocols had succeeded and much > of what was seen as competitive alternatives had not, was that > our efforts focused on pragmatic, working protocols and > implementations. > > The other folks had developed a culture of formalisms, models, > and stated design principles. They then tried to develop > protocols that fit into the boxes and categories of those > formalisms, models, and design principles. When they > discovered that something didn't fit, they needed to either > invent kludges or other ways of getting square pegs into round > holes, go back and revise models and guidance before moving > forward, or consider and make exceptions (which often required > first figuring out how to make an exception and developing > procedures for that). > > One difficulty is that the above can waste a lot of time. > Another is that it can distort protocol design, if only because > forcing square pegs into round holes tends to be hard on both > the pegs and the holes. > > In many or most fields of application, the nature of engineering > involves seeing and understanding a range of tradeoffs and then > doing design work that reflects a carefully-chosen balance among > them. Give design elegance absolute priority over structural > issues and buildings and bridges fall down. IMO, we need to > think, and keep thinking, about systems and tradeoffs. That, in > turn, means that statements like these that can be interpreted > in absolute terms, even if we mostly agree with them, should be > packaged as general guidelines and not BCPs to which everything > done in the future is required to either conform or to try to > figure out how to appeal to a higher authority. > > I'm not at all convinced that the proposal that was summarized > an ARTAREA yesterday and that is seen as requiring an exception > to BCP 190 is a good idea. But I think our time would be better > spent, and the Internet more efficiently made better, discussing > the strengths, weaknesses, and alternatives to that idea rather > than debating the reach and appropriateness of BCP 190 under > various circumstances. Long term and more generally, I think > that suggests seeing BCP 190 not as a particular set of > principles and rules but as an example of something we don't > want to do to ourselves again as a BCP (or as something that > gets enough of an IAB stamp of approval that people will later > argue MUST (or SHOULD) be conformed to. Again, restated as > general guidance with the assumption that there will be > exceptions and cases not considered, I don't have much of a > problem. If that shoe fits draft-nottingham-for-the-users, > so be it. > > john > > p.s. I don't mean to pick on Mark here. While these two > documents coming up at the same time was handy, I think the > problem is general and that there are far worse examples > (examples of which he is not an author) than either of them. > > _______________________________________________ > art mailing list > art@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art --------------39D2DF7535A0E067A5857273 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
John --

It's going to take a while for me to formulate my thoughts around what you say below. To make sure I understand the class of constraints you're concerned about below, can you clarify whether you think they apply to:
  • Documents like BCP 200, RFC 2804, and BCP 188?
  • Documents like BCP 9 and BCP 92?
  • Documents like BCP 25, BCP 54, and BCP 83?

You might see an unstated agenda in the categories of documents I list above, so I'll state it explicitly: in the general case, one person's important protections against a tragedy of the commons is another person's annoying impediment to be ignored and defeated. I get that not all of the above read on protocol design; but they do share the common feature that they've gone through the IETF consensus process (at least to the degree that such a process existed at the time of their respective publications). If we're going to carefully parse out the meanings of some of them as the will of the community while treating others as light guidelines to be ignored when they become cumbersome, we're going to need to agree on a pretty bright line that divides those categories.

/a


On 7/23/19 08:37, John C Klensin wrote:
(copying architecture-discuss because the comment I'm about to
make is an architectural issue and because
draft-nottingham-for-the-users is under discussion there.)


A late colleague, much loved by some of us, used to claim (much
more elegantly than I can manage) that one of the reasons the
ARPANET and then the Internet protocols had succeeded and much
of what was seen as competitive alternatives had not, was that
our efforts focused on pragmatic, working protocols and
implementations.  

The other folks had developed a culture of formalisms, models,
and stated design principles.  They then tried to develop
protocols that fit into the boxes and categories of those
formalisms, models, and design principles.    When they
discovered that something didn't fit, they needed to either
invent kludges or other ways of getting square pegs into round
holes, go back and revise models and guidance before moving
forward, or consider and make exceptions (which often required
first figuring out how to make an exception and developing
procedures for that).

One difficulty is that the above can waste a lot of time.
Another is that it can distort protocol design, if only because
forcing square pegs into round holes tends to be hard on both
the pegs and the holes.

In many or most fields of application, the nature of engineering
involves seeing and understanding a range of tradeoffs and then
doing design work that reflects a carefully-chosen balance among
them.  Give design elegance absolute priority over structural
issues and buildings and bridges fall down.  IMO, we need to
think, and keep thinking, about systems and tradeoffs.  That, in
turn, means that statements like these that can be interpreted
in absolute terms, even if we mostly agree with them, should be
packaged as general guidelines and not BCPs to which everything
done in the future is required to either conform or to try to
figure out how to appeal to a higher authority.

I'm not at all convinced that the proposal that was summarized
an ARTAREA yesterday and that is seen as requiring an exception
to BCP 190 is a good idea.  But I think our time would be better
spent, and the Internet more efficiently made better, discussing
the strengths, weaknesses, and alternatives to that idea rather
than debating the reach and appropriateness of BCP 190 under
various circumstances.   Long term and more generally, I think
that suggests seeing BCP 190 not as a particular set of
principles and rules but as an example of something we don't
want to do to ourselves again as a BCP (or as something that
gets enough of an IAB stamp of approval that people will later
argue MUST (or SHOULD) be conformed to.  Again, restated as
general guidance with the assumption that there will be
exceptions and cases not considered, I don't have much of a
problem.    If that shoe fits  draft-nottingham-for-the-users,
so be it.

   john

p.s. I don't mean to pick on Mark here.   While these two
documents coming up at the same time was handy, I think the
problem is general and that there are far worse examples
(examples of which he is not an author) than either of them.

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art@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art


--------------39D2DF7535A0E067A5857273-- From nobody Tue Jul 23 08:40:23 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BE931203A0 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 08:40:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.68 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.68 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UgW6h1NmYXrN for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 08:40:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6EA631203DD for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 08:40:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Orochi.local ([196.52.21.210]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id x6NFe69D090658 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 23 Jul 2019 10:40:08 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1563896408; bh=r1C3suifMCJzDx7Jn1kgExZirqwdEVaqDf+WAOMEkMU=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=iuNeNNYctMOf5QJ8KnCHLUEkgMMIOJFXjz9STuGNBrPIGnWZuulBgBjfcbP491x82 U9HTLTcWI/wg4s+E/H1/xqIK4mNOV/ORXIxqcO17pMmw+eGlyH2Kpn+G5i6RP1x+jg 0C5RzJYxlYseIDlCxs+RqocspNlGQ/XkBDm+ocjM= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [196.52.21.210] claimed to be Orochi.local To: Stephen Farrell , Carsten Bormann Cc: art@ietf.org References: <422255D5-FD8A-48D8-8442-1A13E3E7B884@tzi.org> <8872cc5c-34c5-845c-c930-3a7f0e3501f2@nostrum.com> <52b99182-686d-4c12-9a3a-24dc8d696c73@cs.tcd.ie> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 11:40:06 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <52b99182-686d-4c12-9a3a-24dc8d696c73@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] BCP190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 15:40:22 -0000 On 7/23/19 11:21, Stephen Farrell wrote: > On the general topic, I don't think it's realistic nor wise > to try always strictly enforce BCPs. BCP107 is a fine case > in point - attempts by the SEC ADs over the years (including > this former instance of the animal;-) haven't IMO made the > Internet better in most cases - some yes, but mostly not, and > while the general guidance is correct, being too strict with > it is not, in the end, a good plan. I think you're correct here. I also think that it's important that we agree where these BCPs get things wrong, and adjust them to reflect the conclusions the community has reached. If BCP 107 needs occasional overrides, a minor revision of that document to explain that point would seem in order, so as to save heartburn for all parties further down the road. I'll repeat what I've said to the TRANS chairs on this topic: if we can get an agreement in principle on the ART mailing list that BCP 190 is too strict and needs to be updated to allow the kinds of exceptions envisioned by TRANS, then I'm willing to clear as soon as consensus in support of that proposition becomes evident, even in advance of a draft that proposes the concrete updates to the BCP. Absent that, the decision on the TRANS mailing list looks too much like one working group discarding established IETF consensus without input from the appropriate stakeholders. /a From nobody Tue Jul 23 08:42:45 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60195120372 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 08:42:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nomountain-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wxJbDh_MHcY0 for ; 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Tue, 23 Jul 2019 08:42:24 -0700 (PDT) To: art@ietf.org References: <791b33b8-4696-f69c-aca3-8838b2caafd8@sectigo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20190713054207.0bbd9b58@elandnews.com> <008901d5410d$90607b00$b1217100$@gmail.com> <529b1f23-75e7-c426-f884-8dd07825182d@nostrum.com> <1e6e3567-59d8-b868-4917-603b848ae984@mnt.se> From: Melinda Shore Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=melinda.shore@nomountain.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFppZ0gBEADFwxAi5szDOsM/6+CH4pbYTX7D+2gjLY4xEE7ydQcAF1WVLvcWXrpZM0GO /eA4N1PJ+OT5o8o9zVr7izMJkiLwcnQmxHdlYgZ9E+Cm8hDtMyEPBQwsYTkE5kpbGCmBAZ+W rHNHjvDg366uZQHzJejenB1/V4+rxMZs1Ak34Az2MVOz9Doecaiadpw3NpH3+1VXY/qilqnM lznINSANqD0ktxB/CVKjxl3/K5JnVnLp0h2kiUqt19hQPX2JmLcgaHzu+Ceb34/HZWhs0CiF c4auhQ3A9PcccOprQh6IGW1xo6RP3OEbeRFqeovgBWS+DIWzMIM0a3G2LDid0889QYwEv0zZ RPDCcF3g15mlkeUUmwKQ6eAagPyTqLtTiOKULqy9bQahyX2eqlySrF+HqlwGeNoG+A4l1Z2Y S7NCBLPIzUk2RuSKMBaKw86ORzvg2Advrw4bdv7kbDkArGzywky61SEB/q+GqR466mekXx2F O+m8RuoSnWrBsKvD/bhELHcneorIBleGz+VL7i5adU0rIydG3jPTfUeXoCZIeNx1LannxnAR ihKdh5+FE26WiiK6VmZWkvFjaPFwWGjvAsi82Pd9QgHhnG/XzINpXw/3HF4wtBTU5nIExMzC +FbJxCPq1kXpqSxJqg7hgUFvD5jUD9lpN5Br/S2dUgJj95bbPQARAQABtCxNZWxpbmRhIFNo b3JlIDxtZWxpbmRhLnNob3JlQG5vbW91bnRhaW4ubmV0PokCVAQTAQoAPgIbAwUJCWdTAAUL CQgHAwUVCgkICwUWAgMBAAIeAQIXgBYhBE9oLZMqF5b4IPI0wN+4kXKadtuPBQJaaXRaAAoJ EN+4kXKadtuPVioP/3nVzx33yjiEtqLKTEHwofnLT15CV5wAcGa0DTbqgiomVKzSRkkhbF3Z KIHYrnjVpTcYJuW+PmFSIjNizNVr+vvjNP6ptRqx5orWmK4EBe/B9mrpmIshxUwkYr46uwN4 h06xJS3KCzhfhSsnesH5vlGBkUod0+nQhbSLyLRpxmaKaeAl4dxFSBLU0vUJMLH8PXTZVNof 5Yo+ThqCzu1pwOkBQ8gST2J6zdy4PjU9ENQ9RLAamlAG/6rGHEKLFcnUpEg7Tcu1hSzAsqR8 kjX2Prpu4A9DyLCjTOvfOPQa8WjZy18ZdYOxuPxdrTazeCRVJIvYRflhBCZb744jhMyfAiSW eckwRBVSCnBuvWBJl9Ua1wp8SOUXXhgGI8WGvSkvul6kKSkHQKDggd4cojAhxWLfvmjxn5pz 0BNbvrEBGqgWwO1ZMuJpmv3P8YK5Aytsl85NZoMMUJIDxEQhBUgYz5QTQANBKPi8RsfOntho rhzXLqnPPQcE4Xf9O9XIyy077F0JoyiPx74Zsl1dTxmT73pezpfhKUQR7/QlmJ/FAADpb6SO V0tlgBtR6FAZToBYPDiss57AcKM1zzyJ7sHIZkxQelykYSet6hp2WGcwMXQveWqFMQ4fiGQx XNEPO+KZKNj+0sfINzSLP88O5TniM/l/JrjZZNT/lVAQDTdkCBGyuQINBFppZ0gBEACgZuM1 8ghzSuhuv+n0kWyWCeEWrx9Ey03EgFj5alBt55+OLv3dOsdyBHJxjtd0cZS1XaKZlgr1YZ0O pQNv/Wyy8uSW2BZ6hyG1SKN9/1MmfJLNnjjxaBQP4yaMwDdS3wX7hoWY19IpVPZHYDR35FAg SnG/s6we+IOITM1TJoOJs4+ygeK5dC7LfRoj+lkEHYrTcglYVuwsyK2FNz/sF8kJW1fEZHM6 6phSbhCvwbECWbb4eDGXbKZY92W1RTQ5U5td8DMLXyYipQphrcoeRXpb18DbOnE0WwIQV0yB gc/rTiUt/wVjasd1RrsCPBQC/uJ+ZHknvr2MoxIWBBsRtKYHG66aOL+nDV8X1miuF6j4cztv gmdqrwPHpAKVxhfwd/G4suNBunYw4/kAV9b2+eidX5em3NtPPNl/qNjsmEHQGn/5JKRHRvQs 0yuigXDhN2N0keoHrbGCE8kyA/d83L7E9d95hsf3JxpRzmeaTze+NpcIaX5uXdKOaCBjLtx1 tOrDA4XX7Y3nY+waKZYa3RvC7yulFJiKfYWDSriWeQXcXj06p8H6vF6sy9LeX9xRRjTI7qDH FxwuMQIKGqgufXtxu0pxxcMqXTEUPZnxUWUvuFjjYvEmtO92+Ot/NuotV8JvRPwg2OnYjMJo dU1X7hzEs8djtgZG+t3FEGK3i1EJUQARAQABiQI8BBgBCgAmFiEET2gtkyoXlvgg8jTA37iR cpp2248FAlppZ0gCGwwFCQlnUwAACgkQ37iRcpp2248krg/9H896KtAQCAV0RcV3QqZ75iY5 pCxpRyxAaR0PjE5jiYV5gUHPCKtr9UPZt4Bi+bzNLQ2KJK6Rx4XNf5lQWopEo1IxtOiFPjkr QIpNkYmFWyOGpKpSIDhgsJpswZqxPDLpo+59GNlSUG6v3sMAnx+Gvtvqczkvg6UPDN/JYK75 BIGoCGZMyor1B0EmRYj98LdwjT95dQZXjZvWBDeIx+NxUZKoA7AlR/xgsN3PHGq4SApMLL0R /qbiLIzUPnTPt5sBs0peflVvMrtgIMiZ9FdYPE+VWy5+X2AmeFg6Zl5W76HQUP6eYZQV5abZ +iiW9lY1TmqsqpTIDu/ZMy7pLknxV5E1vQy+wsihluDYydaQ4HWoNaY7QFb+x7TsvjJRi+cH 7By4jxohTWUuaukuMmT0eEaesWJSraAmxsffqJwDpsi0chZskuXjEm9gX6rY7MhzOZl7Vz9F +6MYTtTmT1mpkLAMWf1/JuKUCfnSAHRlDxUOAG6QSJoHWAGqYy3XiF9bN63yQ6xllloSbbMv P9VW0e/iFKMKEIvfIvAg0IrlPcfKAGuuT1axwIU7da/N7LOcXyDDSEUuSzvXL/BkWyjxuLzd LY6eTvC6ZT/fA5iS/PAUj0WbrWNrHQtQ5OY2+al2v6JdLu/w6IZJCBpTosOAOzzmre+31fk1 HKwqd9xRxC8= Message-ID: <40e6781b-313f-1f65-6762-a10cf75de752@nomountain.net> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 11:42:23 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1e6e3567-59d8-b868-4917-603b848ae984@mnt.se> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="SPxb8Vv6lad9vBxwajRC66UN8bvWadWta" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Against BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 15:42:42 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --SPxb8Vv6lad9vBxwajRC66UN8bvWadWta Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="sbjFJZ0RzjutOzt3qY3fxYaEYRy6JCshr"; protected-headers="v1" From: Melinda Shore To: art@ietf.org Message-ID: <40e6781b-313f-1f65-6762-a10cf75de752@nomountain.net> Subject: Re: [art] Against BCP 190 References: <791b33b8-4696-f69c-aca3-8838b2caafd8@sectigo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20190713054207.0bbd9b58@elandnews.com> <008901d5410d$90607b00$b1217100$@gmail.com> <529b1f23-75e7-c426-f884-8dd07825182d@nostrum.com> <1e6e3567-59d8-b868-4917-603b848ae984@mnt.se> In-Reply-To: <1e6e3567-59d8-b868-4917-603b848ae984@mnt.se> --sbjFJZ0RzjutOzt3qY3fxYaEYRy6JCshr Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7/23/19 11:28 AM, Leif Johansson wrote: > In other words: what parts of the web will crash and burn as the result= > of CT having an API that specifies a uri structure outside .well-known?= The discussions in trans have focused on the question of the impact of BCP 190 on CT and there's been a lack of clarity on the question of the impact of the CT namespace on the rest of the world. That is to say, CT log servers run in very narrow, specialized spaces and it's not really clear that there is potential, in practice, for the sorts of conflicts BCP 190 is intended to prevent. So, we've got a situation in which there are considerable practical impacts of BCP 190 on the CT protocol in both design and implementation, and any apparent impacts of the CT protocol using a non-compliant namespace on the rest of the world appear to be at best theoretical. Melinda --=20 Software longa, hardware brevis PGP key fingerprint 4F68 2D93 2A17 96F8 20F2 34C0 DFB8 9172 9A76 DB8F --sbjFJZ0RzjutOzt3qY3fxYaEYRy6JCshr-- --SPxb8Vv6lad9vBxwajRC66UN8bvWadWta Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEET2gtkyoXlvgg8jTA37iRcpp2248FAl03Kt8ACgkQ37iRcpp2 249ubxAAs9Z5ctIiwI76f9vScTwud2ggfz59a6+DiXxN37J8EsaoyBK4P/Wfg2WC yVTH/uBRx9+QkEqm84B8SZ6P8+n5HERXSRccIJSxCj+lsDT9rdkUyerxUXXBRQBK jzHrNy51klxZFrUfE4KsDgzNlI0igiKeV51KSwHvjimY2qbY1eq1URYkilLVViov 2WmcFe52e+aR+xj+YPVbaic8yDtZkK9UPt6SdPJYrnCxULM9AJ31Rqz6jxIWvJ8P OL/ZPBZS1HSeUvQJb+E28gin6gheoWQGv6VLJM7RGOgGOXVwiORCFA9B4TeMmTUe vzBTfZvof+jsUsAcuQA5X6sfyKMpRz+unr9uJksdQDWhOrknFZ4DbtW+TpsMOfPC PITphV+/XGNlJRrDolRk8DADdXaECucyXWF1Uj3YqieLznD6dTCcZ6cYZEX+mWGI pHzvEvgEYufvSh93nQCVUwqGqSbycRivnfg4QruF22R8+NfpbmxZ4KokkDyxIgq9 pem89UpzcpT7S76gy2tcgonj/yOOQtKrZafSDyNMZisAeL60szUgF69FKiSc2js0 UOxPKgTdQW6RY57Ub9QUwCtV8XEO7A9a7eqnf6wkmE60csIj8zF2fuHIuSTALe8X Tj6D5XsaMZkFIF9pH9T27MqEFaD+7qS/8mWSdFm0JiO+t38ZVSE= =Thrp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --SPxb8Vv6lad9vBxwajRC66UN8bvWadWta-- From nobody Tue Jul 23 08:46:58 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2A571203DD for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 08:46:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.98 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.98 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KMwYhhOYOU94 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 08:46:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B2DB12031D for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 08:46:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Orochi.local ([196.52.21.210]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id x6NFkSDW091717 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 23 Jul 2019 10:46:30 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1563896791; bh=qFpHxhAlXPy944rKVaJ2X5odDTxM/rOe7iCkUOBdb/E=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=NVrBYmM6X1Np1a7rpIqnCKYlXVhAU+xB7FttZTtbtgE/8NQn608efBxW/DbKA4BeE /xXluLkveYK9awOgIM5OZWQqiN9ZotQEQcc19KkcAM5iM9SNmk5whq988iJSrblVEU MzFHAUbYPixVSm5hI5E1repaL2ok7LLZrsSnnGH0= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [196.52.21.210] claimed to be Orochi.local To: Leif Johansson , art@ietf.org References: <791b33b8-4696-f69c-aca3-8838b2caafd8@sectigo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20190713054207.0bbd9b58@elandnews.com> <008901d5410d$90607b00$b1217100$@gmail.com> <529b1f23-75e7-c426-f884-8dd07825182d@nostrum.com> <1e6e3567-59d8-b868-4917-603b848ae984@mnt.se> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 11:46:28 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1e6e3567-59d8-b868-4917-603b848ae984@mnt.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Against BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 15:46:49 -0000 On 7/23/19 11:28, Leif Johansson wrote: > I am having trouble articulating the sense of unease I am feeling > over this issue... > > The best I can muster right now is this: Reading section 2.3 of BCP190 > I see nothing whatsoever that speaks to the interoperability concerns > that motivate the normative language in that (or for that matter any > other) section of BCP190. The purpose of BCP 190 has never been to provide advantages to protocol designers. That is, in fact, the opposite of its purpose. The purpose of BCP 190 is to provide protections to the URI namespace and the people who own its governance (e.g., domain owners) against protocol designers. It's effectively a restatement of the well-understood principle of "don't squat on protocol codepoints," but spelled out in terms of URIs. From that perspective, it is always going to be vaguely adversarial to protocol developers, in the same way that IANA registration policies more strict than "First Come First Served" are: its job is to protect a common resource against having parts of the URI namespace carved off for the exclusive use of one protocol or another. /a From nobody Tue Jul 23 08:54:20 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2871120253 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 08:54:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4szANC0o8Ihv for ; 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b=yKS8i54UuN8Ts2QZST6eX6ZgtLv/tyh5IRdfHvace6liQWuAb/J53o5ImTRTp9atC ESPf1Pa8XXMPLKVrXJuK/1jBN02ctzvvjUGOD5DQ1sYjHjqAVKDR9IvQBqJOTfdI1O mttABerkvb+iYAX0QgSVR7kErOyKXWMUMZHFhu5g= To: Adam Roach , Leif Johansson , art@ietf.org References: <791b33b8-4696-f69c-aca3-8838b2caafd8@sectigo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20190713054207.0bbd9b58@elandnews.com> <008901d5410d$90607b00$b1217100$@gmail.com> <529b1f23-75e7-c426-f884-8dd07825182d@nostrum.com> <1e6e3567-59d8-b868-4917-603b848ae984@mnt.se> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; url= Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABtDJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPokCQAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxLkCDQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: <3699ce1f-10bb-a1c0-8417-549284d18c49@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 16:54:10 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="quIE9vrD2cePwFunrmRfC01SXXzRS76Da" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Against BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 15:54:19 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --quIE9vrD2cePwFunrmRfC01SXXzRS76Da Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="mk74stvOSAw0R8BqXFbNSTdrItbx6Pq5P"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Adam Roach , Leif Johansson , art@ietf.org Message-ID: <3699ce1f-10bb-a1c0-8417-549284d18c49@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [art] Against BCP 190 References: <791b33b8-4696-f69c-aca3-8838b2caafd8@sectigo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20190713054207.0bbd9b58@elandnews.com> <008901d5410d$90607b00$b1217100$@gmail.com> <529b1f23-75e7-c426-f884-8dd07825182d@nostrum.com> <1e6e3567-59d8-b868-4917-603b848ae984@mnt.se> In-Reply-To: --mk74stvOSAw0R8BqXFbNSTdrItbx6Pq5P Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------2DA5037AF265AA1453C148AF" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------2DA5037AF265AA1453C148AF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 23/07/2019 16:46, Adam Roach wrote: >=20 > The purpose of BCP 190 has never been to provide advantages to protocol= > designers. That is, in fact, the opposite of its purpose. The purpose o= f > BCP 190 is to provide protections to the URI namespace and the people > who own its governance (e.g., domain owners) against protocol designers= =2E Right. The difference with trans is that there aren't a mass of domain owners involved here, just a tiny tightly curated list of them and they're basically the ones who designed the protocol (give or take). There is no harm accruing here that I can see. The "MUST NOT" in BCP190 2.3 is too strongly stated, so yes adding some sensible caveats there would be good. I hope that if the conclusion is that there is consensus to let trans ignore that omission in the BCP, that fixing the BCP does not become a pre-requisite for what is (as Melinda explained) a spec that's already been significantly delayed via IETF process. 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dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1kyshW4j-t76 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:02:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 26941120121 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:02:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Orochi.local ([196.52.21.210]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id x6NG2kJg094389 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 23 Jul 2019 11:02:48 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1563897769; bh=Ylrsbyv+JtzfvEdHMfFAsod3BnhBAflC4SUyFtkiD9o=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=X53Z79UfwHh/D4WkJ5b6PBBT8AJawoc1AsqQotkL9/ZnD1nL2FeLcw2drp/75zGsa sIjCgJXh8M39eLRjIqc5WnXF/D1pq4VbskkoJnGlx4XhkyLMcgA6dM4zMRF4xjJDvP jJglJulpVHXQ30ZRiSq27SFTml7EZjsqC5T+8izA= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [196.52.21.210] claimed to be Orochi.local To: Stephen Farrell , Leif Johansson , art@ietf.org References: <791b33b8-4696-f69c-aca3-8838b2caafd8@sectigo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20190713054207.0bbd9b58@elandnews.com> <008901d5410d$90607b00$b1217100$@gmail.com> <529b1f23-75e7-c426-f884-8dd07825182d@nostrum.com> <1e6e3567-59d8-b868-4917-603b848ae984@mnt.se> <3699ce1f-10bb-a1c0-8417-549284d18c49@cs.tcd.ie> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 12:02:46 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3699ce1f-10bb-a1c0-8417-549284d18c49@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Against BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 16:02:55 -0000 On 7/23/19 11:54, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > I hope that > if the conclusion is that there is consensus to let trans ignore > that omission in the BCP, that fixing the BCP does not become > a pre-requisite for what is (as Melinda explained) a spec that's > already been significantly delayed via IETF process. I very much recognize this. I've told the TRANS chairs (and just recently reiterated on this list) that I plan to clear my discuss if and when it becomes evident that the community agrees with their position, without waiting for any specific concrete proposal to update BCP 190 (although I would expect such an update to follow). /a From nobody Tue Jul 23 09:03:43 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E981612028E for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:03:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnt-se.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DGW-sr-vqVJD for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:03:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x82c.google.com (mail-qt1-x82c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2DAF3120383 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:03:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x82c.google.com with SMTP id y26so42456953qto.4 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:03:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnt-se.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:to:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=zQh8uS5QiscnELNBbC/O6X1in1ytkhkS65b70qk4WW8=; b=i1xigpxeTbjxSQ2RlnS0yL9nK0IgcLivY2Jnls0d/qm1NxjSjbMedeVXuamCgsvpNZ SrjXR9Nczqr6TA4yzm3JQ7jrHbyhoGCw163Jjn/IIcZe36/qSmE28UzFOJN8C/Qpi3kM qmZnA32+DQMeImLw19FZ6OF3m6VHI7EXsS2o4oPUN6x2fBKwtfTQ7FU5Si2sgAwepdg6 XZ8jpWPtOPtIgeugyOv6y0C7DTGWgmHUHvEpV/j0W6+dpzgVeltqohJw6SI0dkJeoByb L18Zeg2CDfVOGTgjpKYbjEJnYggH3NbnD+hg/mNdfcTBERRGEPNPSdpZMtK8Ki4ivUsW x+rQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=zQh8uS5QiscnELNBbC/O6X1in1ytkhkS65b70qk4WW8=; b=YRUCHLCn4qdSu0hSq1thU9M8k4tgRGKQdIrWASHXoBPxjaiQNxRgAHwcqsLHJL4Z1M aVGMGdO7b1tBMqNqFSO7F5owEYKY7QG9Xd+q91nS1PZZi3yzqYHlLF/Hn0bhwGotckzT YVjl+Mxi4DwrKprRH4T3bKeQpk07t6Ou208tzT7yltBw1HAE2E9w88ct0PU2rKFYfrgU N35DmSisI//rOYCVxR2CzjvXTJxM4/eIV8pbVfl+I/ux0PaxfjmQ0jYo0LQePOgoujlT SKIMO4JnhuFMP9ckAwueuZMjTL5VbCZLL9zihHuC1A2RKrQI42oj1bGazpVkkRlI5O7i 4lCQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVUTviwY/0L+84/WKpxEM7wfseIC/Ag4kAo2fYs6JwqppLfDSAO WaBwtuUkPzlPdXiOvMf9na1jRW9F X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyKwUJKXeT3m9MxfBQYkbijunWMZF72uwq9nXMuEBZsLFxDkiinXQKdg38Yfe+nOS8w8jedQQ== X-Received: by 2002:aed:3c44:: with SMTP id u4mr53212124qte.73.1563897811915; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:03:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:67c:370:128:a8ff:b295:75a9:1614? ([2001:67c:370:128:a8ff:b295:75a9:1614]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 23sm19418282qkk.121.2019.07.23.09.03.30 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:03:31 -0700 (PDT) To: art@ietf.org References: <791b33b8-4696-f69c-aca3-8838b2caafd8@sectigo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20190713054207.0bbd9b58@elandnews.com> <008901d5410d$90607b00$b1217100$@gmail.com> <529b1f23-75e7-c426-f884-8dd07825182d@nostrum.com> <1e6e3567-59d8-b868-4917-603b848ae984@mnt.se> <40e6781b-313f-1f65-6762-a10cf75de752@nomountain.net> From: Leif Johansson Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=leifj@mnt.se; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQGiBD7DfnwRBADpIpOw6bXfx2Yo3vac/j5WzVcWNZKuiYc4uuFnBYxH8zTA5cdwytuOYNte cX1yrPgmObfPVU0EFktdBMFgLE5TNRUMeJZTmAl3QYDm8N32SeSUEb6GPFsUTGgxsCW3GVAo q6DBopKqhR9HT0+crQakbc7XkS4FjeBWiXjuNf/IqwCgyoa2Qfq8UdjbcH+DRGzPnRTeqzEE ALIEsCzDp4HQqXqqNLCoExbgmCrEHvnqFmilCHJVnyuY8LXmcpq2uwJaiIdsTqLeQ8WrMxWg mZc6F9QSdLP6MVZT3v+5OqOZMUDsu4nGom3HH+tG238vMSEF+klGdrI0wdscrY+28Oshjhqj 4FZxCwdNU9RTU8xQ9IoObiEo1yOHBADK9a5GhkLT+d2cb48orETGtG7i//HOnstouw/TmEUX reZPtT6wpIdN9Jf3W80GA6A34VEGA/I+/5e+9nFvINpLvEF2ghJBH+sWwQ8EXpo0M/yir9oG eJI7gpOHRj5Mq9uqFG0wcamInuWgbMP1cefjXusHbHyDFKr7ydWSsZHqXrQdTGVpZiBKb2hh bnNzb24gPGxlaWZqQG1udC5zZT6IYAQTEQIAIAUCSnC8wwIbIwYLCQgHAwIEFQIIAwQWAgMB Ah4BAheAAAoJEPCcfBbWzGZ3x8MAnimIMTFOH4LLfp8bQnSPWm6BQyA6AKCk4S46++PpqtTM 0wIZ+kuYaBtky7kCDQQ+w36FEAgAr1zK1qIIXmoeEqFulgFi17FRpSibNwwge9bkG2+IO7MO m4Ih+f4CRkqaP5U5diiWb4nyQc/Yqzf3TTSE+CH0ghvDCwfZHrzUsVl9t57S2RFKaQhDUUw3 lz0TgKN66z1IRnQEARuz9PFd96pIhLaJBOn0e55Cu5qqJVwGpst3+I3jqT/cxjymRxPz2O6R 9k/ZOOiOGROZYAjNHKcdoeBr7OaIHcPRCi1R8MBKE4HOK1SwaVvs26Fd2enixIOBmyFTkrue 3VgaAd3zrJauD0qa/u5y2kGEyFFJwNsKnoX0aCmNNIG+aKvnSCWfba8bmYOAsbxS2lo4MKmu DM0rrVyLhwADBQf/VzM77aviZ3Ir7qXj0uV/62wyrg8/5flXl8XjuATewD+hTaux1lg5LgPU 9cokMHYHrTsnp79nhEB9qOpsQLX+npae7a27x3zyqLP0V7neyKy1ycuBI9KU9B3ivgSMRlKR 91GcmUpRnKiSnxPYNtq018mY72YYHCpfAh0OOUA88bxbYIuF5cv9dYyOBhNEkI8xB1VOWev1 CPkPb0DwDABHdOBq9e0hT3OUOaat2JPwCEHU2NTGsYFuZRysq8xnxFgHd00+h2OJZ50UYVpB jDxaCj5gvHHFFnmfCLD5VqjEJGi4k2znZHg67i2pw0f5BSq8fsfdUML35LzL/aaZPMzlg4hG BBgRAgAGBQI+w36FAAoJEPCcfBbWzGZ3djcAnAxF3084vKlsRNGcyj/rn5lA4Q+nAKCnjZYX snFG51wbu8OI88aj3LJE5w== Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 18:03:29 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <40e6781b-313f-1f65-6762-a10cf75de752@nomountain.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Against BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 16:03:35 -0000 On 2019-07-23 17:42, Melinda Shore wrote: > On 7/23/19 11:28 AM, Leif Johansson wrote: >> In other words: what parts of the web will crash and burn as the result >> of CT having an API that specifies a uri structure outside .well-known? > > The discussions in trans have focused on the question of the > impact of BCP 190 on CT and there's been a lack of clarity on > the question of the impact of the CT namespace on the rest of > the world. That is to say, CT log servers run in very narrow, > specialized spaces and it's not really clear that there is > potential, in practice, for the sorts of conflicts BCP 190 is > intended to prevent. So, we've got a situation in which there > are considerable practical impacts of BCP 190 on the CT protocol > in both design and implementation, and any apparent impacts of > the CT protocol using a non-compliant namespace on the rest of > the world appear to be at best theoretical. Oh I completely agree and I think that is clear to everyone who has looked at the issue. However there must be a reason the IESG is pushing back hard on this principle - I hope its not just "but BCP190 has consensus" because that is just about whose consensus is bigger... not a good place to be. Therefore I'm working on the assumption that there are actual larger interoperability issues hiding in BCP190 that leads the IESG. I'm really curious as to what they are. Cheers Leif From nobody Tue Jul 23 09:06:36 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90C441203E2 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:06:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnt-se.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CVg8XOaynZau for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:06:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x829.google.com (mail-qt1-x829.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::829]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 120631203D3 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:06:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x829.google.com with SMTP id h18so42456378qtm.9 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:06:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnt-se.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:to:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=DRKrujyXMDtrLbEVkf8Xn+DdhukAqgZ8TgflfdtnAyc=; b=H9D1OmKiIT+CHtWwmfsrJgzxUv3p43CXz9fZRx6w2gTkoM8Fi4pmocFKS3HBGs97ny xl7FvEhx8JWG6+MPFVr8mPUYuU7RDuvr81UPFgfG9HU7vKZWetR00xF9wN1fzgjGN5lM +/g3D48BVp1s1w8WDxbMHAxh5Cfvp6PISSSQokflJiyBh+22qYtH7khL7xsOnQEmB2Hx dL2wAcNcv92sAnFrIZZlHnXJB4JGxTAhT6D6uI/bz/H0ZZSngtjqBDTBGejFfGhSe43L SQ0BJrZUIt/otixtBS9BdimmFgcLtcviwwOtnyHQY/yDp4D38amxG/FY2QCj7xtsebOS Hnxg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=DRKrujyXMDtrLbEVkf8Xn+DdhukAqgZ8TgflfdtnAyc=; b=FXrDl8G2mqiMnejZdZ/gaQ/p9uCy+2wDECMRHd3pxMyMlEOG2+/mE8GenuCccCORKQ DZC8JOMaFQ41jBMWPwlHjB21xVLDUG59dCpCqgQyGJk39Rwhp9nxBMDcxMC+u0BCrO2w 7QiGdFcWYTgPLDcScgo0Qq6OqcZjSE8khlButvh48FhUa/Mu9/ZHGZ4D1izE9Rdn7LdZ CLjp74E9q3gEOaEPBoVBJWYgYsViXT0h7tR3tZttYDWT5/YZEGSzsVtxfreoMp/ZaSPd 0iomwu9l1gugjB1j04qyglqO6WDLF7VKz4YsWqBo0ad3sA8Dl8q1o5WoKBG7ev0Vlo5I 3bZA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX8LHXjUBK8DhdiksMvnQyqFKpXCBJGxVr3SRZ5NtnyHSA/zwCW LCnuJ6u5mlJcV3Q7tJuZVcdRoGF0 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqziCCGFEO09oq9Zd1JTLuF0V6n0c6Yrtzuh258wiyo2PLGOPyNMuL/JsbNNEO9rpy5enqXYdg== X-Received: by 2002:a0c:aed0:: with SMTP id n16mr56153002qvd.101.1563897988869; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:06:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:67c:370:128:a8ff:b295:75a9:1614? ([2001:67c:370:128:a8ff:b295:75a9:1614]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i23sm19476678qtm.17.2019.07.23.09.06.28 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:06:28 -0700 (PDT) To: Adam Roach , art@ietf.org References: <791b33b8-4696-f69c-aca3-8838b2caafd8@sectigo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20190713054207.0bbd9b58@elandnews.com> <008901d5410d$90607b00$b1217100$@gmail.com> <529b1f23-75e7-c426-f884-8dd07825182d@nostrum.com> <1e6e3567-59d8-b868-4917-603b848ae984@mnt.se> From: Leif Johansson Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=leifj@mnt.se; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQGiBD7DfnwRBADpIpOw6bXfx2Yo3vac/j5WzVcWNZKuiYc4uuFnBYxH8zTA5cdwytuOYNte cX1yrPgmObfPVU0EFktdBMFgLE5TNRUMeJZTmAl3QYDm8N32SeSUEb6GPFsUTGgxsCW3GVAo q6DBopKqhR9HT0+crQakbc7XkS4FjeBWiXjuNf/IqwCgyoa2Qfq8UdjbcH+DRGzPnRTeqzEE ALIEsCzDp4HQqXqqNLCoExbgmCrEHvnqFmilCHJVnyuY8LXmcpq2uwJaiIdsTqLeQ8WrMxWg mZc6F9QSdLP6MVZT3v+5OqOZMUDsu4nGom3HH+tG238vMSEF+klGdrI0wdscrY+28Oshjhqj 4FZxCwdNU9RTU8xQ9IoObiEo1yOHBADK9a5GhkLT+d2cb48orETGtG7i//HOnstouw/TmEUX reZPtT6wpIdN9Jf3W80GA6A34VEGA/I+/5e+9nFvINpLvEF2ghJBH+sWwQ8EXpo0M/yir9oG eJI7gpOHRj5Mq9uqFG0wcamInuWgbMP1cefjXusHbHyDFKr7ydWSsZHqXrQdTGVpZiBKb2hh bnNzb24gPGxlaWZqQG1udC5zZT6IYAQTEQIAIAUCSnC8wwIbIwYLCQgHAwIEFQIIAwQWAgMB Ah4BAheAAAoJEPCcfBbWzGZ3x8MAnimIMTFOH4LLfp8bQnSPWm6BQyA6AKCk4S46++PpqtTM 0wIZ+kuYaBtky7kCDQQ+w36FEAgAr1zK1qIIXmoeEqFulgFi17FRpSibNwwge9bkG2+IO7MO m4Ih+f4CRkqaP5U5diiWb4nyQc/Yqzf3TTSE+CH0ghvDCwfZHrzUsVl9t57S2RFKaQhDUUw3 lz0TgKN66z1IRnQEARuz9PFd96pIhLaJBOn0e55Cu5qqJVwGpst3+I3jqT/cxjymRxPz2O6R 9k/ZOOiOGROZYAjNHKcdoeBr7OaIHcPRCi1R8MBKE4HOK1SwaVvs26Fd2enixIOBmyFTkrue 3VgaAd3zrJauD0qa/u5y2kGEyFFJwNsKnoX0aCmNNIG+aKvnSCWfba8bmYOAsbxS2lo4MKmu DM0rrVyLhwADBQf/VzM77aviZ3Ir7qXj0uV/62wyrg8/5flXl8XjuATewD+hTaux1lg5LgPU 9cokMHYHrTsnp79nhEB9qOpsQLX+npae7a27x3zyqLP0V7neyKy1ycuBI9KU9B3ivgSMRlKR 91GcmUpRnKiSnxPYNtq018mY72YYHCpfAh0OOUA88bxbYIuF5cv9dYyOBhNEkI8xB1VOWev1 CPkPb0DwDABHdOBq9e0hT3OUOaat2JPwCEHU2NTGsYFuZRysq8xnxFgHd00+h2OJZ50UYVpB jDxaCj5gvHHFFnmfCLD5VqjEJGi4k2znZHg67i2pw0f5BSq8fsfdUML35LzL/aaZPMzlg4hG BBgRAgAGBQI+w36FAAoJEPCcfBbWzGZ3djcAnAxF3084vKlsRNGcyj/rn5lA4Q+nAKCnjZYX snFG51wbu8OI88aj3LJE5w== Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 18:06:27 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Against BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 16:06:35 -0000 On 2019-07-23 17:46, Adam Roach wrote: > On 7/23/19 11:28, Leif Johansson wrote: >> I am having trouble articulating the sense of unease I am feeling >> over this issue... >> >> The best I can muster right now is this: Reading section 2.3 of BCP190 >> I see nothing whatsoever that speaks to the interoperability concerns >> that motivate the normative language in that (or for that matter any >> other) section of BCP190. > > > The purpose of BCP 190 has never been to provide advantages to protocol > designers. That is, in fact, the opposite of its purpose. The purpose of > BCP 190 is to provide protections to the URI namespace and the people > who own its governance (e.g., domain owners) against protocol designers. > It's effectively a restatement of the well-understood principle of > "don't squat on protocol codepoints," but spelled out in terms of URIs. > From that perspective, it is always going to be vaguely adversarial to > protocol developers, in the same way that IANA registration policies > more strict than "First Come First Served" are: its job is to protect a > common resource against having parts of the URI namespace carved off for > the exclusive use of one protocol or another. In that case maybe this is just a matter of qualifying section 2.3 with something along the lines of "this does not apply if your entire domain is meant to do just one thing" Cheers Leif From nobody Tue Jul 23 09:21:15 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 015C51202BF for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:21:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nIsApB44cxmV for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:20:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm1-x32a.google.com (mail-wm1-x32a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4E25B1203B4 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:20:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x32a.google.com with SMTP id s15so17686828wmj.3 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:20:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=H6Cs/lnvlQhdiSs6g/lnIyBDK/pdRkNG/H4Uys9EFQc=; b=rxvD5T2j5vXOnpwJ4H7n2fLNmKCmNBuhKiW0rbTEx8Yh6/mHmKI47NWTighRyQ9Ask EDaHi/rgWvCclQ+FTKsdKpXdk8PlsP0HeRj80RvwoMuoeVfQNQChMQckbmfkaChGI6MQ l8nfJ9h4jYvsr7fGBEnfNIySF3UsfLqinQ60ptfdSTzuiL8Nds9n9OvWGEJepIHOyh0X np3HH9V11M29WQ5CmuGvLt+BtON2RxJTv65FKeAJLnCnQU+CZv4ehw8Ay0wuFp63iKfr 61IQ2iZVCNtzJ3VOhZ1ljLm+6eK4StrmHeG01YBWBVilBNC7+IPNhzwIkLfYSNCZDc2o IVrg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=H6Cs/lnvlQhdiSs6g/lnIyBDK/pdRkNG/H4Uys9EFQc=; b=TM6lDkE5FTBOMtzFo/oGfvGkbWPLrZpanRDz5pFEHQApdS3ZRQtDrTFeoqhl80DW5m AoYh3qHGzXwPxnbSblqAnkvOslFPKEScrV01A8oFpoGMnxdEow+VMQj96TYC2Zv9i9Aj N/E1z+M5s8r4hq9jgCLdDJUvFTpOi6MQZGTUWKo2E4/5nf1JLLXhawHxTZEHZQmocXEs 0RLREgnwMriuxQQMiX4IBTY77tohisIabJ8uNtduzBltGuq2X0I1TPhU0w6VtoZI5Dqd +a8Imc6OQVYEZSFCwNVikG8JpOIx2WJYtpX55/uK8H7DBnfsSDbjOdEjDjX3/pmUkEZ1 fzBQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWYCBrXfDE2ojgzzZVGCQj+g7rvUFCvtnO/gKWXQ3cQRhwN7rby kPyiOWaF6tiqrZabOYnxFgMlkM96ePQpw7CPOu8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz1LKdXE+LX+fDlShkCp5A4sf9J008Su8JLd3FsS1ZxOe3OqrcKKp8/LTYGROokZLXecrn3XqAG3oXxouaxvWw= X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:2146:: with SMTP id v6mr4383586wml.59.1563898855567; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:20:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <422255D5-FD8A-48D8-8442-1A13E3E7B884@tzi.org> <8872cc5c-34c5-845c-c930-3a7f0e3501f2@nostrum.com> <52b99182-686d-4c12-9a3a-24dc8d696c73@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: From: "Devon O'Brien" Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:20:44 -0700 Message-ID: To: Adam Roach Cc: Stephen Farrell , Carsten Bormann , art@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c03514058e5b9389" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] BCP190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 16:21:14 -0000 --000000000000c03514058e5b9389 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" The decision we've arrived at is to address the open DISCUSS so we can move forward with RFC 6962-bis, not to disregard IETF consensus. This was the driving force behind getting time yesterday during ART with in-person and remote participation by many of the contributing stakeholders from TRANS. Ensuring wide and open representation in these discussions is also why I'm hesitant to rely on an ad-hoc side meeting at IETF 105 that precludes remote participation, as this will likely lead to incomplete representation and/or a complete rehashing on-list. The TRANS discussion as well as the points summarized in the 105 ART slides [1] present a summary of the alternatives considered and why many in TRANS feel they are not appropriate in the context of CT. If there is a specific concern with the 6962-bis draft 31 approach [2] beyond the stated non-conformity with BCP 190, I would really like to hear it so we can make a better-informed decision and better weigh the alternatives. If there are not concrete concerns to that effect, I'd like to better understand the route forward. It seems like we can either: 1) Acknowledge BCP 190 non-conformity within RFC 6962-bis with a brief description and rationale 2) Begin the process to edit BCP 190 such that RFC 6962-bis is no longer out of compliance using pre-draft-32 language Due in part to the aforementioned delays incurred throughout RFC 6962-bis's process, including dropping it down to Experimental track, several members of TRANS appear to not be keen on holding this up for an attempt to address general concerns with BCP 190 prescriptiveness. This sentiment was echoed by some in the mic-line at yesterday's ART session, but it was too brief to fully address comments from attendees and might not have allowed for folks to raise compelling counter-arguments. Not being an expert here, I'd like input on which is the best approach to pursue. -Devon [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/slides-105-dispatch-rfc-6962-bis-and-bcp-190/ [2] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-trans-rfc6962-bis/31/ On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 8:40 AM Adam Roach wrote: > On 7/23/19 11:21, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > On the general topic, I don't think it's realistic nor wise > > to try always strictly enforce BCPs. BCP107 is a fine case > > in point - attempts by the SEC ADs over the years (including > > this former instance of the animal;-) haven't IMO made the > > Internet better in most cases - some yes, but mostly not, and > > while the general guidance is correct, being too strict with > > it is not, in the end, a good plan. > > > I think you're correct here. I also think that it's important that we > agree where these BCPs get things wrong, and adjust them to reflect the > conclusions the community has reached. If BCP 107 needs occasional > overrides, a minor revision of that document to explain that point would > seem in order, so as to save heartburn for all parties further down the > road. > > I'll repeat what I've said to the TRANS chairs on this topic: if we can > get an agreement in principle on the ART mailing list that BCP 190 is > too strict and needs to be updated to allow the kinds of exceptions > envisioned by TRANS, then I'm willing to clear as soon as consensus in > support of that proposition becomes evident, even in advance of a draft > that proposes the concrete updates to the BCP. Absent that, the decision > on the TRANS mailing list looks too much like one working group > discarding established IETF consensus without input from the appropriate > stakeholders. > > /a > > _______________________________________________ > art mailing list > art@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art > --000000000000c03514058e5b9389 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The decision we've arrived at is to address the open DISCUSS = so we can move forward with RFC 6962-bis, not to disregard IETF consensus. = This was the driving force behind getting time yesterday during ART with in= -person and remote participation by many of the contributing stakeholders f= rom TRANS. Ensuring wide and open representation in these discussions is al= so why I'm hesitant to rely on an ad-hoc side meeting at IETF 105 that = precludes remote participation, as this will likely lead to incomplete repr= esentation and/or a complete rehashing on-list.

The TRAN= S discussion as well as the points summarized in the 105 ART slides [1] pre= sent a summary of the alternatives considered and why many in TRANS feel th= ey are not appropriate in the context of CT. If there is a specific concern= with the 6962-bis draft 31 approach [2] beyond the stated non-conformity w= ith BCP 190, I would really like to hear it so we can make a better-informe= d decision and better weigh the alternatives.=C2=A0

If there are not concrete concerns to that effect, I'd like to better= understand the route forward. It seems like we can either:
1) Ac= knowledge BCP 190 non-conformity within RFC 6962-bis with a brief descripti= on and rationale
2) Begin the process to edit BCP 190 such that R= FC 6962-bis is no longer out of compliance using pre-draft-32 language

Due in part to the aforementioned delays incurred thro= ughout RFC 6962-bis's process, including dropping it down to Experiment= al track, several members of TRANS appear to not be keen on holding this up= for an attempt to address general concerns with BCP 190 prescriptiveness. = This sentiment was echoed by some in the mic-line at yesterday's ART se= ssion, but it was too brief to fully address comments from attendees and mi= ght not have allowed for folks to raise compelling counter-arguments. Not b= eing an expert here, I'd like input on which is the best approach to pu= rsue.=C2=A0

-Devon

[1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/slides-105-dispatch-rfc-6962= -bis-and-bcp-190/

On Tue, Jul = 23, 2019 at 8:40 AM Adam Roach <adam= @nostrum.com> wrote:
On 7/23/19 11:21, Ste= phen Farrell wrote:
> On the general topic, I don't think it's realistic nor wise > to try always strictly enforce BCPs. BCP107 is a fine case
> in point - attempts by the SEC ADs over the years (including
> this former instance of the animal;-) haven't IMO made the
> Internet better in most cases - some yes, but mostly not, and
> while the general guidance is correct, being too strict with
> it is not, in the end, a good plan.


I think you're correct here. I also think that it's important that = we
agree where these BCPs get things wrong, and adjust them to reflect the conclusions the community has reached. If BCP 107 needs occasional
overrides, a minor revision of that document to explain that point would seem in order, so as to save heartburn for all parties further down the road.

I'll repeat what I've said to the TRANS chairs on this topic: if we= can
get an agreement in principle on the ART mailing list that BCP 190 is
too strict and needs to be updated to allow the kinds of exceptions
envisioned by TRANS, then I'm willing to clear as soon as consensus in =
support of that proposition becomes evident, even in advance of a draft that proposes the concrete updates to the BCP. Absent that, the decision on the TRANS mailing list looks too much like one working group
discarding established IETF consensus without input from the appropriate stakeholders.

/a

_______________________________________________
art mailing list
art@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art
--000000000000c03514058e5b9389-- From nobody Tue Jul 23 09:27:37 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52394120336 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:27:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.75 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.75 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=t3yFYgo+; dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=ehXS0osG Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xMHaHYp4md5L for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:27:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9515D120121 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:27:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 71770 invoked by uid 100); 23 Jul 2019 16:27:19 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent:cleverness; s=11858.5d373567.k1907; i=johnl@user.iecc.com; bh=gywiNt4sROwA5wtp6jx7XGJP9sk6LYalxhUmltfdQWY=; b=t3yFYgo+NpivEFBiW6oZZCG99bd/6fgQ9JaEhvd0FH4qt2MTwsxLX8SeudGD7Hl3ETuKCjp0fcsIvGhE12sSjvLjr5lgEQXBVEX81U1aRmTwGyUgZ5GH60tNeuSIjgFYxoBuHhBR+JwTxnAyCW3GzqvQhLuUTzGWLzH9FYtjck0ZiAbZnaVcnQrUWzMwhAAeoh9zMP08Q7/V3KJqJqDFU2MJo/w0BskDc/lwJnJsIN5xdfkPLgnOoIKBeB72yhod DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent:cleverness; s=11858.5d373567.k1907; olt=johnl@user.iecc.com; bh=gywiNt4sROwA5wtp6jx7XGJP9sk6LYalxhUmltfdQWY=; b=ehXS0osGI41UJktFZaAmoU63YYx3GSk0Y0usr6/K3hwWBfeoR/ZGLyvvlBj+Ru7bR8ShO2dMSgE2Vu79B7Ug0iIqbGuMILqQycdE2fCbW0LrOznktavS7eeAD5fxDs8rvpFA4QeUhePaskvHl9P6M+22mWi2KpTRLLGtJPRnw68mPWhpx9izuq7BxekYmvnqUnAsPliID4EuwrqFKgb+YG9nujHWna3aPn2NcO5wMwV1OwIx5Z8Tb3/8Gmcy7rVx Date: 23 Jul 2019 12:27:19 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R Levine" To: "Dave Cridland" Cc: "General Area Review Team (gen-art@ietf.org)" In-Reply-To: References: <20190720050445.925A852550A@ary.qy> User-Agent: Alpine 2.21.9999 (BSF 287 2018-06-16) Cleverness: None detected MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 16:27:35 -0000 On Tue, 23 Jul 2019, Dave Cridland wrote: >> There are places where, say, mailboxes with local parts starting with >> A-M are on one IMAP server and those starting with N-Z are on another. >> It's hard to see how you could do that with SRV records tied to the >> domain. >> > Sure. I'm just thinking that anywhere you say "IMAP server" we'd put an SRV > resolution. In general I like SRV just fine but in this case, the config already provides a hostname and port so what does it add? I don't thinkml MUAs are likely to use a backup IMAP server if the main one is unreachable. Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY "I dropped the toothpaste", said Tom, crestfallenly. From nobody Tue Jul 23 09:33:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E308B12033D for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:33:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.68 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.68 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C3sKUI5LPiha for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:33:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 274531202AC for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:33:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [26.254.73.175] ([172.58.30.133]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id x6NGXY3a099370 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 23 Jul 2019 11:33:35 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1563899616; bh=zA5y675RbddQBPjTJEAKI4UC/1Fy5jpiYLyFn3SCLJE=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=HroyHo886baqIyfbkpWMGI39TToUBlMT4h1xpY/3/DRQgQHnuHqcRRmBftZmLuJ1G helCu7kfW39Z1adScyrr/1b4HIna6fHRvoJPcLKQoJJBPZXWXUxJSrtGm22VhpV4tl ShNvdubqvbhe34a7u4HpyiEdgqTq4WBWakCSPrm8= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [172.58.30.133] claimed to be [26.254.73.175] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Adam Roach X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16F203) In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 12:33:28 -0400 Cc: Stephen Farrell , Carsten Bormann , art@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9240360A-3F24-4D9F-A247-E1111CEE5EF8@nostrum.com> References: <422255D5-FD8A-48D8-8442-1A13E3E7B884@tzi.org> <8872cc5c-34c5-845c-c930-3a7f0e3501f2@nostrum.com> <52b99182-686d-4c12-9a3a-24dc8d696c73@cs.tcd.ie> To: "Devon O'Brien" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] BCP190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 16:33:48 -0000 > On Jul 23, 2019, at 12:20, Devon O'Brien wrote: >=20 > The TRANS discussion as well as the points summarized in the 105 ART slide= s [1] present a summary of the alternatives considered and why many in TRANS= feel they are not appropriate in the context of CT. As I pointed out in the room, the objection to using .well-known was based o= n a misunderstanding on the part of the TRANS working group. It cited not ju= st an obsoleted document; it cited the exact text that was removed by its su= ccessor document to make room for things like CT. /a= From nobody Tue Jul 23 09:48:03 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBF51120254 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:47:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 42Roclex44-Q for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:47:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm1-x330.google.com (mail-wm1-x330.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::330]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED164120019 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:47:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x330.google.com with SMTP id v19so39134802wmj.5 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:47:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=7J4nLNFOOFuJgUp3KF/9wGNrziGOFhHOIZxKyYSpnwM=; b=hWL4CctPxj9zaD7J9JVz7ON+Ldt/F55XIDWCyckdiS1VbnXwcUBLSGlcyaeWTcMTbN p/9tbtdBY8GOHdsIrdStXUAUoZeLos4q1qgC9RdeDpTjcS2a0+iVPRArVNavW3P+gcae saiItIDe1ffLqegsPJW65jKiwz14d+aYcyB286jIbTuZLq6a42t34w1T+zJ1vPNRIjsi zDbiHd1lofzhWB1W99oxqDD4qhhKJvVQB4T8I0wnPBHR/SvKYrUseXAm49kZPQZooSRa rFOPwCYQYAMKhtT7HRnMel65EBepLplhIqQobnsXovfcGqGhg2iXTTkZ7qQ5X8FMveNl e6GA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=7J4nLNFOOFuJgUp3KF/9wGNrziGOFhHOIZxKyYSpnwM=; b=XEMi4H/+UeNPEN9sYvby99tnYgd47V6xwVCS0w6blwP/kxCx2vDR2QJtY6tLrUS6In R8FdfSEV4dbUsNl3UrEZwIy9HzsUyww9Ag3l9ITcdlFDhDnZRMLeWHn2FSzI9aNJr5Yz ZcVrHi5aJGRqflJ1F+dPKIswkUuRudPiX6eMpeBwHTxyUPxBYz0MHMwnTqRAQTOqygNM yaRpANHGB+JORJ01sInsrpUpGdRGWlvHloyF4OUUCrRzjYx4/Jfm0ytjVRCq45XjeRWd KAMIbBZ1qXN3BgMC1Aoc3Fqz2W2hVTHU9HQsW3R5/EL3MbBEQjhEz1gfl5ht5gH4iyqP oPXw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXlfXNLs+6bWwZiDLIaezc1CtLZ1nOBRH4b1pRfjDv746twaKK6 eW9hg5IB7kwI0T4dSOtnGhuFfUpXykw0ixk+ZxM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyu3KnIIwLV+dJLTqTXUkHEYrq4CsViUZdCAPKtVVOTeQXutyBU4p+kvzR4XUs8qMZJZEBJgZAbZ98hnevws4A= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:cfc3:: with SMTP id f186mr65503535wmg.134.1563900475307; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:47:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <422255D5-FD8A-48D8-8442-1A13E3E7B884@tzi.org> <8872cc5c-34c5-845c-c930-3a7f0e3501f2@nostrum.com> <52b99182-686d-4c12-9a3a-24dc8d696c73@cs.tcd.ie> <9240360A-3F24-4D9F-A247-E1111CEE5EF8@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <9240360A-3F24-4D9F-A247-E1111CEE5EF8@nostrum.com> From: "Devon O'Brien" Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:47:44 -0700 Message-ID: To: Adam Roach Cc: Stephen Farrell , Carsten Bormann , art@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004b8173058e5bf486" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] BCP190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 16:48:00 -0000 --0000000000004b8173058e5bf486 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Yes, and thank you very much for that clarification. I was, however, hoping to hear if there are specific criticisms of the approach in 6962-bis draft 31 that would warrant altering the CT ecosystem or risk the non-implementation of 6962-bis. Yesterday, there were multiple comments of "overbroadness" of BCP 190, and while I'm not sufficiently equipped to address these general concerns, I was looking to see if there is a technically sound reason to alter CT from the existing deployed mechanism, which is also described in pre-draft 32 language of 6962-bis. Am I to take your position as an endorsement of altering CT to use /.well-known/ or is it simply a criticism of our (flawed) analysis of alternatives? On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 9:33 AM Adam Roach wrote: > > > > On Jul 23, 2019, at 12:20, Devon O'Brien wrote: > > > > The TRANS discussion as well as the points summarized in the 105 ART > slides [1] present a summary of the alternatives considered and why many in > TRANS feel they are not appropriate in the context of CT. > > As I pointed out in the room, the objection to using .well-known was based > on a misunderstanding on the part of the TRANS working group. It cited not > just an obsoleted document; it cited the exact text that was removed by its > successor document to make room for things like CT. > > /a > --0000000000004b8173058e5bf486 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes, and thank you very much for that clarification. I was= , however, hoping to hear if there are specific criticisms of the approach = in 6962-bis draft 31 that would warrant altering the CT ecosystem or risk t= he non-implementation of 6962-bis. Yesterday, there were multiple comments = of "overbroadness" of BCP 190, and while I'm not sufficiently= equipped to address these general concerns, I was looking to see if there = is a technically sound reason to alter CT from the existing deployed mechan= ism, which is also described in pre-draft 32 language of 6962-bis.

=
Am I to take your position as an endorsement of altering CT to u= se /.well-known/ or is it simply a criticism of our (flawed) analysis of al= ternatives?

On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 9:33 AM Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com> wrote:


> On Jul 23, 2019, at 12:20, Devon O'Brien <devon.obrien@gmail.com> wrote= :
>
> The TRANS discussion as well as the points summarized in the 105 ART s= lides [1] present a summary of the alternatives considered and why many in = TRANS feel they are not appropriate in the context of CT.

As I pointed out in the room, the objection to using .well-known was based = on a misunderstanding on the part of the TRANS working group. It cited not = just an obsoleted document; it cited the exact text that was removed by its= successor document to make room for things like CT.

/a
--0000000000004b8173058e5bf486-- From nobody Tue Jul 23 09:53:08 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76D4112044E for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:53:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=andrewayer.name Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WSVGujofmBaJ for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:53:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thomson.beanwood.com (thomson.beanwood.com [18.220.42.202]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 80C5912042B for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:53:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=andrewayer.name; s=beanwood20160511; t=1563900783; bh=MFvEaWaKiX+S/jkOT9dxFO0qK3JOUAUdTYODDg/gHbI=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=loiClb7knPihmiBnV/Vh7GPi4zeUQ2/s338e4Cwb36cQA1/WKA0wDZ3MNt97ZC8V3 a6TRKYHeaoYmh1jcZcTxduNauunsCD0e1VUptyLPk/VUR+EwQBGEsCQAuwuhOfyjXs urirPjSWhRFV6ewNwYdZMA4xzSvxd2ubesgoxBDOVHe9NYlHpvyso6mXLlZOvGpMlV MBlqFcrSM0MdQWYV+Q6t1jV/w0AK7pL6ZQHxnpX9W4I+x30rT1ap8ti/RpZozYXzYG jL9ZnCb+VshLtj/48EHdSPCfaI84tB4GrfT5O2jwu/98DKzu8s7GAPES3jAYcot8jr ZvJcZbMtDYLpg== Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:53:02 -0700 From: Andrew Ayer To: Adam Roach Cc: "Devon O'Brien" , art@ietf.org, Carsten Bormann , Stephen Farrell Message-Id: <20190723095302.99a77d9af4cfa550a8a50d69@andrewayer.name> In-Reply-To: <9240360A-3F24-4D9F-A247-E1111CEE5EF8@nostrum.com> References: <422255D5-FD8A-48D8-8442-1A13E3E7B884@tzi.org> <8872cc5c-34c5-845c-c930-3a7f0e3501f2@nostrum.com> <52b99182-686d-4c12-9a3a-24dc8d696c73@cs.tcd.ie> <9240360A-3F24-4D9F-A247-E1111CEE5EF8@nostrum.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] BCP190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 16:53:07 -0000 On Tue, 23 Jul 2019 12:33:28 -0400 Adam Roach wrote: > > On Jul 23, 2019, at 12:20, Devon O'Brien > > wrote: > > > > The TRANS discussion as well as the points summarized in the 105 > > ART slides [1] present a summary of the alternatives considered and > > why many in TRANS feel they are not appropriate in the context of > > CT. > > As I pointed out in the room, the objection to using .well-known was > based on a misunderstanding on the part of the TRANS working group. > It cited not just an obsoleted document; it cited the exact text that > was removed by its successor document to make room for things like CT. The other reason that TRANS rejected .well-known is because .well-known is often locked down in deployment environments. We tried using .well-known with draft-ietf-trans-gossip. Google had to put their implementation at https://www.gstatic.com/ct/gossip/ct/v1/sth-pollination rather than under .well-known. In other words, mandating .well-known is a greater imposition on URI namespace owners in practice than what draft-ietf-trans-rfc6962-bis-31 does. This is further evidence that BCP 190 needs revision. Regards, Andrew From nobody Tue Jul 23 10:09:27 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 368D712046E for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 10:09:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GSVcoY3b2vx6 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 10:09:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x22f.google.com (mail-lj1-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 25525120446 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 10:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x22f.google.com with SMTP id m23so41723934lje.12 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 10:09:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=xS+ZkpIZnsfF3zr/tYpwT6/8vgI1zErg9jzkXHxNwug=; b=v3L+0By3FtA6te+7S8rJova8Q3Uyg70znpuokKi7RXLcoxk77812/qxFzuCDQaONiV AK6I1MQHB9okwzW+rmQV+VnfHNU+1xg4djL396fZJV4s7d19OkOca+ulAT3MxZDhkV8D YXjv/fHTe3Oji//vRhfKghxuDj3wFnR0MBJeGjYQ8fJRQkJb39d0/zkoIOvsU3P5zrpc fTydj1+6ZRk+EKAmODxY0SvBK9rV3i4MlXpqpKEXA6NWTeqJKGtX6qasDombekjhOBud DoOelBnHaHmv41DMzmrerW/XEDpC7GK9imCHeiDCAXVRJYVNqWm+ro9cMEqbTEU00haT 5h0w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=xS+ZkpIZnsfF3zr/tYpwT6/8vgI1zErg9jzkXHxNwug=; b=VhBAMuEEEPq3QDyxk5yGnT1trqq7XN6S2STR6OJmo/NOgs2TKsWUyoRBwCFM4HbhRB eYyrADoMgoL05HbGbGVC3oFAFzLIGOoqgL5R4vUg1NhgHg3ZCGeR5S0gy1mdT0PQlskq 7O4+Xv8Xa1NYJYMZePza3SLoASrlRfplpl34Ev47qIgPojXrlY+4/Tau4YLDrWjfdeeC OrNYSOogSgVW+Liu9cZDwzm86VOJHcT4Bwz4oppLJZe32FMN2mIDNVt9tOrkj4HBST9a UndguKfHg8TRouROQiqjw6rTBNixoBeUFpAhgiDnsXDCcWNxCiFkM+p4ymNEHDscvVOJ baqQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUBDWeyusoo8NMkiX7ysUiyU3z2kw6vpnEJxUhZlkJzW0lKftNu Ur45O05fccQz+ITOqHUuFRlr44NhQ1pVEwGm7e4wOhIaW2NQ7w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwQZdziiRSDyUpbyCIfIPg6j+JTDTogjkOR/gRIz9mTGKA4/FLLH2sTq5eaDg1loMMwT2d3WKTi916svlQbjFg= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:b1c1:: with SMTP id e1mr5014161lja.228.1563901748943; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 10:09:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <791b33b8-4696-f69c-aca3-8838b2caafd8@sectigo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20190713054207.0bbd9b58@elandnews.com> <008901d5410d$90607b00$b1217100$@gmail.com> <529b1f23-75e7-c426-f884-8dd07825182d@nostrum.com> <1e6e3567-59d8-b868-4917-603b848ae984@mnt.se> In-Reply-To: From: Victor Vasiliev Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 13:08:57 -0400 Message-ID: To: Adam Roach Cc: Leif Johansson , art@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000362301058e5c40b5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Against BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 17:09:26 -0000 --000000000000362301058e5c40b5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I don't buy the ownership argument here. I have an electric kettle in my room that I bought myself; I own it in every practical sense of that word. The kettle has a power connector that has to comply with the NEMA standards in order to be pluggable into most wall sockets around the US. The fact that it has to follow those standards in order to be practically operable doesn't mean that NEMA "usurped" (as BCP 190 puts it) my kettle from me. I can see the argument that assigning a top-level paths for every website (e.g. favicon or robots.txt) is harmful, and I agree that we should use a well-known prefix (/.well-known/) and an IANA registry for those. However, paths are inherently hierarchical in nature. Owners can delegate subpaths to other owners, for instance. a college webserver can delegate a /~user/ path to individual users. In the same manner, an owner can delegate a portion of its path space to an IETF standard. There are a lot of technical considerations in BCP 190 about why web application should not do path-based APIs (e.g. it runs on a shared web hosting that does not support this). However, those are practical technical considerations (rather than administrative namespace management), and as such should not be a MUST-level requirement enforced by the IESG. It *is* important that the application designers are aware of those considerations, but they are still the best experts on whether those considerations actually apply to the protocol in question. The restriction on query strings similarly has no namespace maintenance purpose, and should be downgraded to a recommendation. I guess my biggest issue with BCP 190 is that it diverges with how the HTTP-based APIs are usually designed around the industry. Between the older-style APIs based on query strings, and newer-style APIs utilizing different paths for endpoints, there is a wide range of commonly used APIs that violate BCP 190. This is not only problematic from theoretical side (if you believe that running code reflects rough consensus), but also hinders the progression of interfaces from de-facto standards to actual IETF documents. Because of the considerations described above, I believe we should relax the restrictions in BCP 190, by clearly separating the matters of avoiding namespace collisions (which can remain a MUST), and matters of operational nature (which needs to be a SHOULD). On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 11:47 AM Adam Roach wrote: > On 7/23/19 11:28, Leif Johansson wrote: > > I am having trouble articulating the sense of unease I am feeling > > over this issue... > > > > The best I can muster right now is this: Reading section 2.3 of BCP190 > > I see nothing whatsoever that speaks to the interoperability concerns > > that motivate the normative language in that (or for that matter any > > other) section of BCP190. > > > The purpose of BCP 190 has never been to provide advantages to protocol > designers. That is, in fact, the opposite of its purpose. The purpose of > BCP 190 is to provide protections to the URI namespace and the people > who own its governance (e.g., domain owners) against protocol designers. > It's effectively a restatement of the well-understood principle of > "don't squat on protocol codepoints," but spelled out in terms of URIs. > From that perspective, it is always going to be vaguely adversarial to > protocol developers, in the same way that IANA registration policies > more strict than "First Come First Served" are: its job is to protect a > common resource against having parts of the URI namespace carved off for > the exclusive use of one protocol or another. > > /a > > _______________________________________________ > art mailing list > art@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art > --000000000000362301058e5c40b5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I don't buy the ownership argument here.=C2=A0 I have = an electric kettle in my room that I bought myself; I own it in every pract= ical sense of that word.=C2=A0 The kettle has a power connector that has to= comply with the NEMA standards in order to be pluggable into most wall soc= kets around the US.=C2=A0 The fact that it has to follow those standards in= order to be practically operable doesn't mean that NEMA "usurped&= quot; (as BCP 190 puts it) my kettle from me.

I can= see the argument that assigning a top-level paths for every website (e.g. = favicon or robots.txt) is harmful, and I agree that we should use a well-kn= own prefix (/.well-known/) and an IANA registry for those.=C2=A0 = However, paths are inherently hierarchical in nature.=C2=A0 Owners can dele= gate subpaths to other owners, for instance. a college webserver can delega= te a /~user/ path to individual users.=C2=A0 In the same manner, an owner c= an delegate a portion of its path space to an IETF standard.

There are a lot of technical considerations in BCP 190 abo= ut why web application should not do path-based APIs (e.g. it runs on a sha= red web hosting that does not support this).=C2=A0 However, those are pract= ical technical considerations (rather than administrative namespace managem= ent), and as such should not be a MUST-level requirement enforced by the IE= SG.=C2=A0 It is important that the application designers are aware o= f those considerations, but they are still the best experts on whether thos= e considerations actually apply to the protocol in question.

=
The restriction on query strings similarly has no namespace main= tenance purpose, and should be downgraded to a recommendation.
I guess my biggest issue with BCP 190 is that it diverges with= how the HTTP-based APIs are usually designed=C2=A0around the industry.=C2= =A0 Between the older-style APIs based on query strings, and newer-style AP= Is utilizing different paths for endpoints, there is a wide range of common= ly used APIs that violate BCP 190.=C2=A0 This is not only problematic from = theoretical side (if you believe that=C2=A0running code reflects rough cons= ensus), but also hinders the progression of interfaces from de-facto standa= rds to actual IETF documents.

Because of the consi= derations described above, I believe we should relax the restrictions in BC= P 190, by clearly separating the matters of avoiding namespace collisions (= which can remain a MUST), and matters of operational nature (which needs to= be a SHOULD).


On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 11:47= AM Adam Roach <ad= am@nostrum.com> wrote:
On 7/23/19 11:28, Leif Johansson wrote:
> I am having trouble articulating the sense of unease I am feeling
> over this issue...
>
> The best I can muster right now is this: Reading section 2.3 of BCP190=
> I see nothing whatsoever that speaks to the interoperability concerns<= br> > that motivate the normative language in that (or for that matter any > other) section of BCP190.


The purpose of BCP 190 has never been to provide advantages to protocol designers. That is, in fact, the opposite of its purpose. The purpose of BCP 190 is to provide protections to the URI namespace and the people
who own its governance (e.g., domain owners) against protocol designers. It's effectively a restatement of the well-understood principle of
"don't squat on protocol codepoints," but spelled out in term= s of URIs.
=C2=A0From that perspective, it is always going to be vaguely adversarial t= o
protocol developers, in the same way that IANA registration policies
more strict than "First Come First Served" are: its job is to pro= tect a
common resource against having parts of the URI namespace carved off for the exclusive use of one protocol or another.

/a

_______________________________________________
art mailing list
art@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art
--000000000000362301058e5c40b5-- From nobody Tue Jul 23 10:25:26 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21BFF12063E for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 10:25:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cridland.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JCX4jzX1jI0q for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 10:25:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x52c.google.com (mail-ed1-x52c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 06ECF120634 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 10:25:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x52c.google.com with SMTP id w20so44670124edd.2 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 10:25:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cridland.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=6vvi+iEA3W3POlWYIshrNp8RYf6U4tR8xdDxW1iDVoo=; b=Oz4JFbB4CKV0+UfxQ8/FXgGXyo0rFz1GPboYuc6BCI3o4ee9iVxdAoYzBk+zBOFTIV RNgybxbckesQx4Yz8H2RKfa76Zy1qyD35+uoIrtvs+tKa3AfXLlIjeczFWQxPxz4yIoT H6YsENfAbm2GlPA21MjA0GexLtPYC1fKCro9M= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=6vvi+iEA3W3POlWYIshrNp8RYf6U4tR8xdDxW1iDVoo=; b=Y8gNMR7gj4KXuQ5dqnepR3vrOJLjgFju04bDcZybQL9VQHHFW3UsqTevmIsSZXwPL8 BB4lfY3GBPupuvjrZeIHJBVoA4ghspaeTmKGguM2Iug8mUu4xYxkFxxAEYtzdnKQN1Yv UHFUBxZWK2i9ErVIlYFpX3ZrzP7xwkC0DLLTU6bhcunR71nHj02e0DowWzSHDuIn+NRU Wj9fsbTkcYqNmCoRbl6oZBffOIxMqJt/BlmAIMs3nKoPk0/Ehs6ni27Ezzh6y0xby2aE T94McRQMbNMrzxOaysQe0k5i/fAXzp7jSEOAypwxyyhUYtIn+5fXsxHc1ynI+TwNHODJ Hpug== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUqHnXDG2tJofev/Ro6dk3f//WGFecj3h9ogbBZNIes2I2WQJr3 ABjRvI3LAZturZCkXRlAuz8nJzv5oavM96dy0Dr1xA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy6VqqetMhJykkKnG7gxNewpyD18zjk06LUGI6mO37ChMsCnS8kJfy3xnSSZfOY2ob958eCvUp7E6kQ5pkqNP0= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:944f:: with SMTP id z15mr59535095ejx.137.1563902720434; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 10:25:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20190720050445.925A852550A@ary.qy> In-Reply-To: From: Dave Cridland Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 18:25:09 +0100 Message-ID: To: John R Levine Cc: "General Area Review Team (gen-art@ietf.org)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001d7983058e5c7a3a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 17:25:24 -0000 --0000000000001d7983058e5c7a3a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, 23 Jul 2019 at 17:27, John R Levine wrote: > On Tue, 23 Jul 2019, Dave Cridland wrote: > >> There are places where, say, mailboxes with local parts starting with > >> A-M are on one IMAP server and those starting with N-Z are on another. > >> It's hard to see how you could do that with SRV records tied to the > >> domain. > >> > > Sure. I'm just thinking that anywhere you say "IMAP server" we'd put an > SRV > > resolution. > > In general I like SRV just fine but in this case, the config already > provides a hostname and port so what does it add? I don't thinkml MUAs > are likely to use a backup IMAP server if the main one is unreachable. > Hmmm... "thinkml"? Sounds familiar. But to the point, I don't know if MUAs will do SRV or not, if it's presented to them in a standard. On a quick skim, some decided RFC 6186 wasn't useful: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/commits-list/2012-November/msg01976.html and others (like K9, for example) decided it was. I do know, however, that Google deploy RFC 6186 records for gmail.com, so there's hope - it's a useful mechanism for allowing multiple endpoints with preferences etc, and I'm quite sure that we do have cases where multiple IMAP hosts are deployed. We could bake that functionality into the autoconfig fomat, of course, but it feels like refreshing the config can happen at a different cadence to a SRV lookup, and besides, SRV works well. Dave. --0000000000001d7983058e5c7a3a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, 23 Jul 2019 at 17:27, John R = Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote= :
On Tue, 23 Jul= 2019, Dave Cridland wrote:
>> There are places where, say, mailboxes with local parts starting w= ith
>> A-M are on one IMAP server and those starting with N-Z are on anot= her.
>> It's hard to see how you could do that with SRV records tied t= o the
>> domain.
>>
> Sure. I'm just thinking that anywhere you say "IMAP server&qu= ot; we'd put an SRV
> resolution.

In general I like SRV just fine but in this case, the config already
provides a hostname and port so what does it add?=C2=A0 I don't thinkml= MUAs
are likely to use a backup IMAP server if the main one is unreachable.
<= /blockquote>

Hmmm... "thinkml"? Sounds familia= r.

But to the point,=C2=A0 I don't know if MUA= s will do SRV or not, if it's presented to them in a standard. On a qui= ck skim, some decided RFC 6186 wasn't useful:=C2=A0https://ma= il.gnome.org/archives/commits-list/2012-November/msg01976.html=C2=A0and= others (like K9, for example) decided it was.

I d= o know, however, that Google deploy RFC 6186 records for gmail.com, so there's hope - it's a useful mechanism= for allowing multiple endpoints with preferences etc, and I'm quite su= re that we do have cases where multiple IMAP hosts are deployed.
=
We could bake that functionality into the autoconfig fomat, = of course, but it feels like refreshing the config can happen at a differen= t cadence to a SRV lookup, and besides, SRV works well.

Dave.
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Tue, 23 Jul 2019 13:06:12 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1563905175; bh=iNxrEO3hv+XRURHAzLL9VBPyTxsrn10rxqGebaFF3HQ=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=Qy1cR2lEWMgHsVncz3HWSU5IscC3uj3QTC1mOK1Hrd+YmBdfHO3m7lkjKrIFE8/Oa DAdWhNk8uGQhp/MmMaLlOCi14PCwlDhVqbNWJFqKE1/W9mgFF+IuNL3Jv+mFLD2TV9 Kbb+4zvO9a4cWhcIS3InZjmrgSWON0xHrhpZy6LU= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [196.52.21.201] claimed to be Orochi.local To: "Devon O'Brien" Cc: Stephen Farrell , Carsten Bormann , art@ietf.org References: <422255D5-FD8A-48D8-8442-1A13E3E7B884@tzi.org> <8872cc5c-34c5-845c-c930-3a7f0e3501f2@nostrum.com> <52b99182-686d-4c12-9a3a-24dc8d696c73@cs.tcd.ie> <9240360A-3F24-4D9F-A247-E1111CEE5EF8@nostrum.com> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <58caec85-e111-1628-3cdf-956fa1c1ad58@nostrum.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 14:06:09 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] BCP190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 18:06:33 -0000 On 7/23/19 12:47, Devon O'Brien wrote: > Am I to take your position as an endorsement of altering CT to use > /.well-known/ or is it simply a criticism of our (flawed) analysis of > alternatives? I think moving under .well-known is a valid solution to the situation at hand. It's far from my preferred one: the use of URLs in CT is a poster child for why URI templates (RFC 6570) were developed, and I think that solution fits this problem perfectly. However, I also recognize that such a change at this point in the process is probably more disruptive than simply moving under the namespace that has been carved out for uses that want to specify names, paths, and parameters in the way that CT does. I also think it would be valid to get the rest of the community on-board with principled changes to the provisions of BCP 190, if that's achievable. That seems to be the path you've chosen. The goal here remains finding a cross-IETF consensus about whether what TRANS is currently proposing to do is reasonable, given that previous discussions concluded that it is not. /a From nobody Tue Jul 23 11:14:47 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F48812078A for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 11:14:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=nOxW+t35; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=CBDrb8r8 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2WtVG8scdZoH for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 11:14:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4669012078B for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 11:14:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8482021DFB; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 14:14:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 23 Jul 2019 14:14:40 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject :message-id:date:cc:to; s=fm3; bh=WH+nFe8SfezhlBfJW1G34LLV7OVSak 4HUSC153vdAoE=; b=nOxW+t35+hmTR9GW4pD/M0ziZXRTXRlczk/qESfAzdS4nb gQUeBylCJ06QYc/RnSvg/V+HZInR+/6kmvT3v8OdVSIm1IK+CeczarCYrUwUKf9y VtbAU28dUGCO+ZwFwfwEhXXFBUH0EZHibvkt4k5/oXjVPrOdrnfBEiruDJSFex9r vZrvSI0S/XEYkv3SpPxC8jBDBzpqlIw6HDW9p50me7AXJcBhvKCnitUly1Hb0V6a dJAJ21k0FLVZTCvNp8kYX86b39+Fh1RSW0gzDMX3YfBX/+eR4YX1vyBYbuVemegb O7eN4cSPvLebaJabPoOdPYqao80j4duKnH+TQUEw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=WH+nFe 8SfezhlBfJW1G34LLV7OVSak4HUSC153vdAoE=; b=CBDrb8r8k9Ojdpr8gG+QUl lqxnsbCaiRfbYX+KQcBjL5sWcYAW7i3jXvMwtqYKwSFhMmlmSAOZPo4j8UbL1N+B pHyHYYS9vaWBzqrp5yUi9JMSqAMSv/8r2+mvD+yO4KwyIA4wfU1/fJLTgiRB0Mp/ hN5rI9ZcO/By8poRaLTmk9KNtB9lgmDzKGc3Y65X91sphkJ3JSBC+Ha6YILYsamh StwBpk7C6/ElvMFvexqLm69BDGB6gYEl9A6Mt6G0cRpzIiGY/A6hKLxBF05tMQXr W+VDejmxGbbSsJDZn9q5T/nRZUHDjPWZMVgyi/Ok/l4PGj4MZVrZTTbq8y2FtUWA == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduvddrjeekgdduvddvucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhephfgtgfgguffkfffvofesthhqmhdthhdtvdenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhkucfp ohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucffohhmrghinhepth ifihhtthgvrhdrtghomhdphhhtthhpfhholhhkshhinhhvohhlvhgvughinhhthhgvshgv phhrohhpohhsrghlshgvrghrlhhivghrrdhimhdpmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecukfhppeefud drudeffedrudefjedrvdefgeenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhnohhtsehm nhhothdrnhgvthenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: from dhcp-89ea.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-89ea.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.137.234]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id D687B380085; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 14:14:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Nottingham Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Message-Id: <58BF6171-03BB-4F83-940F-3A101EFDD67F@mnot.net> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 14:14:36 -0400 Cc: Devon O'Brien To: ART Area X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: [art] On BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 18:14:46 -0000 Hi, I've been watching the discussion of BCP 190 with interest. It = encompassed what we though were good principles in 2014; we've learned a = lot more since then, and it could be time to revise some parts of the = document*. However, there's some context that I think is important for people to be = aware of. Namely, HTTP's primary use case is the Web, not making the = lives of people who have decided to base IETF protocols on it easier = (although that's a good secondary goal). When you choose to adopt it to = get a job done, it's reasonable to ask it not impact other use cases = unduly -- especially the primary one. Even if a protocol is deployed on = dedicated standalone servers, how they use URIs deserves scrutiny -- = both because HTTP works best when you work with it, and because it sets = a precedent that becomes easier to repeat the more it happens.=20 In short, I'm not concerned about *this* IETF specification violating = the BCP, I'm concerned when there are 1,000 specs that do so (which may = not be that far away, given how many specs are being built on top of = HTTP).=20 BCP190 has a tough job, because it's trying to address against erosion = of a commons. That job is made more difficult because best practices for = designing HTTP APIs are still in flux, and common practices for an API = that's implemented once and deployed on one server that's under the = control of the designer (e.g., api.twitter.com) are often not = appropriate for an API that is implemented many times, deployed on many = servers owned by different people, and sometimes evolved independently = (as standards and their extensions often are). However, I continue to = believe in general it's important to restrain how standards define URIs; = while I understand that it's annoying to protocol designers who just = want to get their jobs done, it's important to remember that portions of = the URI space are controlled by server owners, not us, and a = single-hostname-per-service-type model isn't great. With all of that said, IMO there are always going to be exceptions, = based upon circumstances; the important thing is that they're discussed = and thought through. We probably need better communication and support = for that; BCP56bis will hopefully help, but we also need to get HTTP = folks involved in these proposals earlier. I'm talking to Devon about the specifics this afternoon, and hopefully = we'll come out with a concrete proposal one way or another. After that, = it'd be interesting to hear what people think about adjustments to the = guidance in 190. I have some ideas that I might scribble down in a = draft, in my copious spare time. Cheers, * Or subsume the topic into BCP56bis? /cc Tommy, Patrick -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Tue Jul 23 11:16:32 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3476120796 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 11:16:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=nxkQr6qq; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=yGnLI1Ir Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1vkHKJ5xzZfv for ; 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Tue, 23 Jul 2019 14:16:25 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <58caec85-e111-1628-3cdf-956fa1c1ad58@nostrum.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 14:16:23 -0400 Cc: Devon O'Brien , ART Area , Carsten Bormann , Stephen Farrell Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <74E02CE5-39E3-4ED9-BBBA-122A807B5D84@mnot.net> References: <422255D5-FD8A-48D8-8442-1A13E3E7B884@tzi.org> <8872cc5c-34c5-845c-c930-3a7f0e3501f2@nostrum.com> <52b99182-686d-4c12-9a3a-24dc8d696c73@cs.tcd.ie> <9240360A-3F24-4D9F-A247-E1111CEE5EF8@nostrum.com> <58caec85-e111-1628-3cdf-956fa1c1ad58@nostrum.com> To: Adam Roach X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] BCP190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 18:16:31 -0000 Regarding URL Templates -- FWIW, there are many libraries and a = well-defined test suite available; see: https://github.com/uri-templates/uritemplate-spec/wiki/Implementations https://github.com/uri-templates/uritemplate-testf Cheers, > On 23 Jul 2019, at 2:06 pm, Adam Roach wrote: >=20 > On 7/23/19 12:47, Devon O'Brien wrote: >> Am I to take your position as an endorsement of altering CT to use = /.well-known/ or is it simply a criticism of our (flawed) analysis of = alternatives? >=20 > I think moving under .well-known is a valid solution to the situation = at hand. It's far from my preferred one: the use of URLs in CT is a = poster child for why URI templates (RFC 6570) were developed, and I = think that solution fits this problem perfectly. However, I also = recognize that such a change at this point in the process is probably = more disruptive than simply moving under the namespace that has been = carved out for uses that want to specify names, paths, and parameters in = the way that CT does. >=20 > I also think it would be valid to get the rest of the community = on-board with principled changes to the provisions of BCP 190, if that's = achievable. That seems to be the path you've chosen. The goal here = remains finding a cross-IETF consensus about whether what TRANS is = currently proposing to do is reasonable, given that previous discussions = concluded that it is not. >=20 > /a >=20 > _______________________________________________ > art mailing list > art@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Tue Jul 23 11:48:21 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45D7C12083A for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 11:48:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.98 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.98 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YNQ-4NifQUMl for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 11:48:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6D74B12083B for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 11:48:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Orochi.local ([196.52.21.201]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id x6NIm90c022202 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 23 Jul 2019 13:48:12 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1563907694; bh=1EO4RJugmmB07wRx3e2b46D6JF4FnzVbcRF+GfXrf98=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=MsTH1D4v6cs4VUpfDhxGWfWLq5O6Pby3VKuSS4SfMyJds7iH2zyxLYtXYbVSMXKMt xprahF8cw4uW4iCgQ/XyNKJmIS71+ee1uSy52B9Vugvv8+1u0wJ+haIlMZVKug2Pw+ OqhLttko/YQDuW49ldaAdPaqeGagJr1Jk6pOiXKU= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [196.52.21.201] claimed to be Orochi.local To: Leif Johansson , art@ietf.org References: <791b33b8-4696-f69c-aca3-8838b2caafd8@sectigo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20190713054207.0bbd9b58@elandnews.com> <008901d5410d$90607b00$b1217100$@gmail.com> <529b1f23-75e7-c426-f884-8dd07825182d@nostrum.com> <1e6e3567-59d8-b868-4917-603b848ae984@mnt.se> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 14:48:09 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Against BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 18:48:19 -0000 On 7/23/19 12:06, Leif Johansson wrote: > > On 2019-07-23 17:46, Adam Roach wrote: >> On 7/23/19 11:28, Leif Johansson wrote: >>> I am having trouble articulating the sense of unease I am feeling >>> over this issue... >>> >>> The best I can muster right now is this: Reading section 2.3 of BCP190 >>> I see nothing whatsoever that speaks to the interoperability concerns >>> that motivate the normative language in that (or for that matter any >>> other) section of BCP190. >> >> The purpose of BCP 190 has never been to provide advantages to protocol >> designers. That is, in fact, the opposite of its purpose. The purpose of >> BCP 190 is to provide protections to the URI namespace and the people >> who own its governance (e.g., domain owners) against protocol designers. >> It's effectively a restatement of the well-understood principle of >> "don't squat on protocol codepoints," but spelled out in terms of URIs. >> From that perspective, it is always going to be vaguely adversarial to >> protocol developers, in the same way that IANA registration policies >> more strict than "First Come First Served" are: its job is to protect a >> common resource against having parts of the URI namespace carved off for >> the exclusive use of one protocol or another. > In that case maybe this is just a matter of qualifying section 2.3 with > something along the lines of "this does not apply if your entire domain > is meant to do just one thing" You're not the only person to suggest that, and maybe it's worth considering. However. As I've mentioned up-thread, the TRANS conversation has indicated that these origins are *not* single-purpose, so this proposal is somewhat unrelated. I'd like to see the conversation around single-purpose origins happen, if we decide to revise BCP 190. But it would appear that the TRANS folks are in a hurry to reach a conclusion regarding their specific use case, so perhaps we should focus the discussion on that. /a From nobody Tue Jul 23 12:28:42 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F6001208D8 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 12:28:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnt-se.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V4WDHUwuG2nw for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 12:28:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk1-xa2d.google.com (mail-vk1-xa2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a2d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F25BA1208CE for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 12:28:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk1-xa2d.google.com with SMTP id o19so8936263vkb.6 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 12:28:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnt-se.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:to:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=8KpoXqRiTTiW7K7OMrahdINY5KFRR/+QURM9ninUALI=; b=rI8Mbd8lnuuH3bmZ353hZAedibVtsFsj62bIgbi26q2tm01gR+ToJgfXijcEChmMuo TE/qfLTWkL9mv2Z5UibAPnOwOLIpReHlpke9DtUq22p/m2I5gXC+DX2uc17YzLdQcjdn kSjgu7N2Yb4BZ3fXfD0Sfkb16ECIMGTSmPudBOZ7bQ4b+n6byVJx5SPFgRX9voHm9vvp XwW7h94QrB9dqpVSNhPQlqIczMwAmldmJvr1TChaxOiASBu4vhzt07IZer8tufOsrLe8 YniVONLk6KxHKEJmvJDg9Foll3OGt0RmmeAwNH+Y8u49/Hl7e5B5GMvhATaKOkPigbKP rYgA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=8KpoXqRiTTiW7K7OMrahdINY5KFRR/+QURM9ninUALI=; b=ZJ3EVjjAxh6v8eiJzKmwGTgcJIt8zF7sYz1hqTuFipbe3N0ugFECVp56onH0uPQYrA zJHsgGrnxhoGgJrbBi3DSlipDBdhgJ//2XzCor8FEwjz4ocKsV8feT6mo4lYDCdCE2rd eEHakKBxclejklqxNrAzZUIy1RuvcykBxqPtvR+Kck82PlKrYzTDodyXHsPqP7EEmA49 BEM7DngFWeOndevtOGDELBwmJ1W9EzT/fYarK9lmwFx8CSCFb4MVWwvjm4IznI5rjjQ5 xjTGA/SIg4zk9P8t9m9GGP/YlS5FJa17IunK/I+c27bMfXgZwoZIE9JCGU0lRrZyGo1p kQxg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVDveQv5e4r4Rk+GfGr0oYM6rD8rhEDh80sXMlvMiyYBSZvPZp/ W81BwKIKSICV8Y14F0TAd0bPV5oe X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz5MMhr7WZM0lZWwDDx1HtGbmwu8kEssCP1CQK94/L0HSWKt2TIihL+hQtESwE/RoXYG+CYTQ== X-Received: by 2002:a1f:1d58:: with SMTP id d85mr30319476vkd.13.1563910116668; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 12:28:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:67c:370:128:a8ff:b295:75a9:1614? ([2001:67c:370:128:a8ff:b295:75a9:1614]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q69sm28245531vkq.18.2019.07.23.12.28.34 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 23 Jul 2019 12:28:35 -0700 (PDT) To: Adam Roach , art@ietf.org References: <791b33b8-4696-f69c-aca3-8838b2caafd8@sectigo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20190713054207.0bbd9b58@elandnews.com> <008901d5410d$90607b00$b1217100$@gmail.com> <529b1f23-75e7-c426-f884-8dd07825182d@nostrum.com> <1e6e3567-59d8-b868-4917-603b848ae984@mnt.se> From: Leif Johansson Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=leifj@mnt.se; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQGiBD7DfnwRBADpIpOw6bXfx2Yo3vac/j5WzVcWNZKuiYc4uuFnBYxH8zTA5cdwytuOYNte cX1yrPgmObfPVU0EFktdBMFgLE5TNRUMeJZTmAl3QYDm8N32SeSUEb6GPFsUTGgxsCW3GVAo q6DBopKqhR9HT0+crQakbc7XkS4FjeBWiXjuNf/IqwCgyoa2Qfq8UdjbcH+DRGzPnRTeqzEE ALIEsCzDp4HQqXqqNLCoExbgmCrEHvnqFmilCHJVnyuY8LXmcpq2uwJaiIdsTqLeQ8WrMxWg mZc6F9QSdLP6MVZT3v+5OqOZMUDsu4nGom3HH+tG238vMSEF+klGdrI0wdscrY+28Oshjhqj 4FZxCwdNU9RTU8xQ9IoObiEo1yOHBADK9a5GhkLT+d2cb48orETGtG7i//HOnstouw/TmEUX reZPtT6wpIdN9Jf3W80GA6A34VEGA/I+/5e+9nFvINpLvEF2ghJBH+sWwQ8EXpo0M/yir9oG eJI7gpOHRj5Mq9uqFG0wcamInuWgbMP1cefjXusHbHyDFKr7ydWSsZHqXrQdTGVpZiBKb2hh bnNzb24gPGxlaWZqQG1udC5zZT6IYAQTEQIAIAUCSnC8wwIbIwYLCQgHAwIEFQIIAwQWAgMB Ah4BAheAAAoJEPCcfBbWzGZ3x8MAnimIMTFOH4LLfp8bQnSPWm6BQyA6AKCk4S46++PpqtTM 0wIZ+kuYaBtky7kCDQQ+w36FEAgAr1zK1qIIXmoeEqFulgFi17FRpSibNwwge9bkG2+IO7MO m4Ih+f4CRkqaP5U5diiWb4nyQc/Yqzf3TTSE+CH0ghvDCwfZHrzUsVl9t57S2RFKaQhDUUw3 lz0TgKN66z1IRnQEARuz9PFd96pIhLaJBOn0e55Cu5qqJVwGpst3+I3jqT/cxjymRxPz2O6R 9k/ZOOiOGROZYAjNHKcdoeBr7OaIHcPRCi1R8MBKE4HOK1SwaVvs26Fd2enixIOBmyFTkrue 3VgaAd3zrJauD0qa/u5y2kGEyFFJwNsKnoX0aCmNNIG+aKvnSCWfba8bmYOAsbxS2lo4MKmu DM0rrVyLhwADBQf/VzM77aviZ3Ir7qXj0uV/62wyrg8/5flXl8XjuATewD+hTaux1lg5LgPU 9cokMHYHrTsnp79nhEB9qOpsQLX+npae7a27x3zyqLP0V7neyKy1ycuBI9KU9B3ivgSMRlKR 91GcmUpRnKiSnxPYNtq018mY72YYHCpfAh0OOUA88bxbYIuF5cv9dYyOBhNEkI8xB1VOWev1 CPkPb0DwDABHdOBq9e0hT3OUOaat2JPwCEHU2NTGsYFuZRysq8xnxFgHd00+h2OJZ50UYVpB jDxaCj5gvHHFFnmfCLD5VqjEJGi4k2znZHg67i2pw0f5BSq8fsfdUML35LzL/aaZPMzlg4hG BBgRAgAGBQI+w36FAAoJEPCcfBbWzGZ3djcAnAxF3084vKlsRNGcyj/rn5lA4Q+nAKCnjZYX snFG51wbu8OI88aj3LJE5w== Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 21:28:32 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Against BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 19:28:40 -0000 On 2019-07-23 20:48, Adam Roach wrote: > On 7/23/19 12:06, Leif Johansson wrote: >> >> On 2019-07-23 17:46, Adam Roach wrote: >>> On 7/23/19 11:28, Leif Johansson wrote: >>>> I am having trouble articulating the sense of unease I am feeling >>>> over this issue... >>>> >>>> The best I can muster right now is this: Reading section 2.3 of BCP190 >>>> I see nothing whatsoever that speaks to the interoperability concerns >>>> that motivate the normative language in that (or for that matter any >>>> other) section of BCP190. >>> >>> The purpose of BCP 190 has never been to provide advantages to protocol >>> designers. That is, in fact, the opposite of its purpose. The purpose of >>> BCP 190 is to provide protections to the URI namespace and the people >>> who own its governance (e.g., domain owners) against protocol designers. >>> It's effectively a restatement of the well-understood principle of >>> "don't squat on protocol codepoints," but spelled out in terms of URIs. >>>  From that perspective, it is always going to be vaguely adversarial to >>> protocol developers, in the same way that IANA registration policies >>> more strict than "First Come First Served" are: its job is to protect a >>> common resource against having parts of the URI namespace carved off for >>> the exclusive use of one protocol or another. >> In that case maybe this is just a matter of qualifying section 2.3 with >> something along the lines of "this does not apply if your entire domain >> is meant to do just one thing" > > > You're not the only person to suggest that, and maybe it's worth > considering. > > However. > > As I've mentioned up-thread, the TRANS conversation has indicated that > these origins are *not* single-purpose, so this proposal is somewhat > unrelated. I think you may be confusing multi-tentant TRANS with multi-purpose Using a domain *only* for TRANS but with multiple tenants does not suggest the same restrictions on the management of the URI namespace for that domain. Cheers Leif From nobody Tue Jul 23 12:34:11 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C020B1202CF for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 12:34:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.98 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.98 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XPfPRSnBDmuX for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 12:34:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 88916120382 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 12:34:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Orochi.local ([196.52.21.201]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id x6NJY4Zb029733 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 23 Jul 2019 14:34:07 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1563910447; bh=XPCy3eU7kVBHnkNECiimyhIi3fM+PjRgs1Ioln/uCyY=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=Aczz1XSlWyE8sDcOqPd59ZdDw2Nq6BagFTAoBF1+bl/dA4A+dNnAaCm+tPwBsaQVb OaFvzIID5+68jwN7uSo0N+g+O4IbJySw+B+qegvR6BtBykd59DuGKkumBQo6zCou5W Ok6HOMwwJ1mNg8xlhjGE59M+gDgHJ7R1uuZ9vDT8= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [196.52.21.201] claimed to be Orochi.local To: Leif Johansson , art@ietf.org References: <791b33b8-4696-f69c-aca3-8838b2caafd8@sectigo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20190713054207.0bbd9b58@elandnews.com> <008901d5410d$90607b00$b1217100$@gmail.com> <529b1f23-75e7-c426-f884-8dd07825182d@nostrum.com> <1e6e3567-59d8-b868-4917-603b848ae984@mnt.se> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 15:33:55 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Against BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 19:34:10 -0000 On 7/23/19 15:28, Leif Johansson wrote: > I think you may be confusing multi-tentant TRANS with multi-purpose > > Using a domain *only* for TRANS but with multiple tenants does not > suggest the same restrictions on the management of the URI namespace > for that domain. Thanks for the clarification -- I did indeed misinterpret that terminology distinction. I'm also hearing others saying that they don't want to use .well-known because they are administratively prevented from doing so. I think that went at least as far in implying multi-purpose (rather than merely multi-tenant) as anything else that has been said. Would it be possible to also clarify whether (and how) .well-known ends up being administratively reserved in a single-purpose origin? /a From nobody Tue Jul 23 12:34:28 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C345812091B for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 12:34:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnt-se.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rj0RzmI-Xrw3 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 12:34:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-xe2a.google.com (mail-vs1-xe2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F0B82120912 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 12:34:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-xe2a.google.com with SMTP id u124so29718533vsu.2 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 12:34:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnt-se.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:to:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=jhqr8IAGZENxXo2WI2ozQJmi+EVyNiEly8Oz77VMzB8=; b=MKAQaHwP2LKV9XrKzxgcQw3+Ubu5AI2RGdC/3bo+BsQa/F9bEZ8TA9k/iIaASe6DCK XSpK93utE7WQzo8bx/H+U+/8ZAOMa+bII+50m24wAmc8Nxm8stkuvfMx7uPyT0+E/Z85 iIGgQkZoRNRqA367Qmk5wVnc042B2NymuAm2pUOnVAtuJPBsMwb9W0OOMLhJiMwz0ida +5SdygyJeNBYNIcGJWCQOssP1FftLGt242cXUz0/fmt2bQOQNTV6kHn4SnYA21K+UgFV e2/FKW1Uz9QlZUdjMhXf6tUELQjlu2EWtqB63aCxfaL+1WYQKj2wZ336FeR+V3T+bmaF wtgQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=jhqr8IAGZENxXo2WI2ozQJmi+EVyNiEly8Oz77VMzB8=; b=hfDGPqRNBzAyK+0XIpScDdqy+x6LyPnOaZhtYOxck630qSxnuYEATVpUpRYlbVAfLh Fp3jmmxzQE2p1HMbB+ABAfpU+couXtuPQhJ5j1lErTjXFiBEmj3EPjSqYkVmlKuGTb3l Tc4lD83OsJ0brpNeNtejbRc0sODXmKhPD7l7weWLrNynXvFdjj5xOjZbBD4bKznsHKgw lTxUFqAcJ2C6NBTof2IE37rFNhhsYSuz7uAoYcmJq3ByfdVIv6lVnEm1uRSqOJXAFT9n AnrVCuRM3OdX5icvjE57lccqTGc0AM8XGUY25dTUUYiRqImKays71M7sXFOqLLWV4lCc Tgww== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVfk20LfZbIBUKXQn/6gCs4Vrc/uPXKwUYvNbsBv+JZKNAqZEdm 39q74vvR5n8/AD02Oygiua72ihoD X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwjZfJAgShw8ZvFP7Ld+Phzf1EK/ojvsAXibRoFv2vug14pPTilDo6dCYN8pzAx1RjE5iRudw== X-Received: by 2002:a67:f941:: with SMTP id u1mr43271095vsq.60.1563910454777; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 12:34:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:67c:370:128:a8ff:b295:75a9:1614? ([2001:67c:370:128:a8ff:b295:75a9:1614]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j13sm13500296vkc.26.2019.07.23.12.34.14 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 23 Jul 2019 12:34:14 -0700 (PDT) To: art@ietf.org References: <58BF6171-03BB-4F83-940F-3A101EFDD67F@mnot.net> From: Leif Johansson Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=leifj@mnt.se; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQGiBD7DfnwRBADpIpOw6bXfx2Yo3vac/j5WzVcWNZKuiYc4uuFnBYxH8zTA5cdwytuOYNte cX1yrPgmObfPVU0EFktdBMFgLE5TNRUMeJZTmAl3QYDm8N32SeSUEb6GPFsUTGgxsCW3GVAo q6DBopKqhR9HT0+crQakbc7XkS4FjeBWiXjuNf/IqwCgyoa2Qfq8UdjbcH+DRGzPnRTeqzEE ALIEsCzDp4HQqXqqNLCoExbgmCrEHvnqFmilCHJVnyuY8LXmcpq2uwJaiIdsTqLeQ8WrMxWg mZc6F9QSdLP6MVZT3v+5OqOZMUDsu4nGom3HH+tG238vMSEF+klGdrI0wdscrY+28Oshjhqj 4FZxCwdNU9RTU8xQ9IoObiEo1yOHBADK9a5GhkLT+d2cb48orETGtG7i//HOnstouw/TmEUX reZPtT6wpIdN9Jf3W80GA6A34VEGA/I+/5e+9nFvINpLvEF2ghJBH+sWwQ8EXpo0M/yir9oG eJI7gpOHRj5Mq9uqFG0wcamInuWgbMP1cefjXusHbHyDFKr7ydWSsZHqXrQdTGVpZiBKb2hh bnNzb24gPGxlaWZqQG1udC5zZT6IYAQTEQIAIAUCSnC8wwIbIwYLCQgHAwIEFQIIAwQWAgMB Ah4BAheAAAoJEPCcfBbWzGZ3x8MAnimIMTFOH4LLfp8bQnSPWm6BQyA6AKCk4S46++PpqtTM 0wIZ+kuYaBtky7kCDQQ+w36FEAgAr1zK1qIIXmoeEqFulgFi17FRpSibNwwge9bkG2+IO7MO m4Ih+f4CRkqaP5U5diiWb4nyQc/Yqzf3TTSE+CH0ghvDCwfZHrzUsVl9t57S2RFKaQhDUUw3 lz0TgKN66z1IRnQEARuz9PFd96pIhLaJBOn0e55Cu5qqJVwGpst3+I3jqT/cxjymRxPz2O6R 9k/ZOOiOGROZYAjNHKcdoeBr7OaIHcPRCi1R8MBKE4HOK1SwaVvs26Fd2enixIOBmyFTkrue 3VgaAd3zrJauD0qa/u5y2kGEyFFJwNsKnoX0aCmNNIG+aKvnSCWfba8bmYOAsbxS2lo4MKmu DM0rrVyLhwADBQf/VzM77aviZ3Ir7qXj0uV/62wyrg8/5flXl8XjuATewD+hTaux1lg5LgPU 9cokMHYHrTsnp79nhEB9qOpsQLX+npae7a27x3zyqLP0V7neyKy1ycuBI9KU9B3ivgSMRlKR 91GcmUpRnKiSnxPYNtq018mY72YYHCpfAh0OOUA88bxbYIuF5cv9dYyOBhNEkI8xB1VOWev1 CPkPb0DwDABHdOBq9e0hT3OUOaat2JPwCEHU2NTGsYFuZRysq8xnxFgHd00+h2OJZ50UYVpB jDxaCj5gvHHFFnmfCLD5VqjEJGi4k2znZHg67i2pw0f5BSq8fsfdUML35LzL/aaZPMzlg4hG BBgRAgAGBQI+w36FAAoJEPCcfBbWzGZ3djcAnAxF3084vKlsRNGcyj/rn5lA4Q+nAKCnjZYX snFG51wbu8OI88aj3LJE5w== Message-ID: <2ba63f8c-0f61-bd59-fbca-9d782a0d9818@mnt.se> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 21:34:13 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <58BF6171-03BB-4F83-940F-3A101EFDD67F@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] On BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 19:34:26 -0000 Hi Mark, > > In short, I'm not concerned about *this* IETF specification violating the BCP, I'm concerned when there are 1,000 specs that do so (which may not be that far away, given how many specs are being built on top of HTTP). Playing devils advocate: how is BCP190 then a BCP? I understand there may be an argument for the B and the C but if there are really 1000s of APIs that does what BCP190 say you MUST NOT, then in what sense does this represent Best Current /Practice/? I am not being facetious. Cheers Leif From nobody Tue Jul 23 12:48:01 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A54012091A for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 12:47:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.559 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.559 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.091, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fOOwrXcbZ8az for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 12:47:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-x62d.google.com (mail-pl1-x62d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2D7C41208F7 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 12:47:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-x62d.google.com with SMTP id k8so21017757plt.3 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 12:47:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=G/TcNUOmIWDF/oD7zey6Y7PxfntW7qxVtLzT/cstnv8=; b=Ez0cknFpiPjyoFRWtnrVtqR+UcJL+4GYJmVNjmUnq4RODho1N5+vyxHE7WhpIzywjC F4MGlH3HwrUC4fSco8eZgiWAL/zGmvbd7P22Ohv0g5fS++/peKBke95+yrVRiCqoJgcm HnWoHd65X0KlnWAuU+n3qtUenmnk3ghxihSS80mmmD2n2DC66pgx3zGwYTpLyxL2qOC2 yjVWn45LFzUMm+EI2jOBWm3qrMu1LseLwhp7r6AvGb8nYgpr/jY6H92bAXp5nyNhW9Kv DCXgPzu6YI37ZUpPE3iB2g10ZW+UIGp9ze3En0q91m3+0nwoxLmEC19R57V+l+gyAfhY LKSw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject :date:message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=G/TcNUOmIWDF/oD7zey6Y7PxfntW7qxVtLzT/cstnv8=; b=RhiCVwzkC8Bv2yAWe4CZqUqketVRTjuapgeEI9QsVyDCpMR/7vTKD0kxycdeloLQsv 4vzouOAO6KBG2ncv+DZ5GVo3M6M3FhWkUX5E9VgazBnQP73E5AfzzM7m+776qEs1tIu1 hnHXiM4DXTUYxniLPLIcwAh3ib8nbooTB4aThlhcQ/D76Rulr4NAglO8DTv3S+lZ+Hmf p4O6+oqwifi1D90nShXZqdpzhznF6odKEPsWBY7nYewEjcunKODe4lPYJoIDxMrap/f4 sDg2sZyKbvhsGJ85XEX+0PsuJZlLOLtPE3TkVCjL5FE3n7tBbNVXCwbcTCSD8e+S2izp 4eZg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWllVSMPK1xMknvt/vFBR6b8Vi7ox/f4KQIpfrfmw7lsUdGANF5 MOL6OAcy95gXM9IJWtoxAfg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwijtlK/R4T439XBTvGY0AdnKaQiNgMRXR2ghJFV5rnJkwjRtnog+t7vA/mElbC4yD2DqrHlw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:4683:: with SMTP id p3mr75738481pld.31.1563911275440; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 12:47:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TVPC (c-67-169-101-78.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [67.169.101.78]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f7sm43178341pfd.43.2019.07.23.12.47.54 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 23 Jul 2019 12:47:54 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Larry Masinter From: Larry Masinter X-Google-Original-From: "Larry Masinter" To: "'Adam Roach'" , "'Stephen Farrell'" , "'Carsten Bormann'" Cc: References: <422255D5-FD8A-48D8-8442-1A13E3E7B884@tzi.org> <8872cc5c-34c5-845c-c930-3a7f0e3501f2@nostrum.com> <52b99182-686d-4c12-9a3a-24dc8d696c73@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 12:47:55 -0700 Message-ID: <01c701d5418f$85e90f70$91bb2e50$@acm.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 thread-index: AQGxEGAU87s7IgXvYz/8pZcrB3l+LgHXAC01AocadQ4CEfubxAGxXd4JAhCtupSmz0rxAA== Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] BCP190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 19:48:00 -0000 > I'll repeat what I've said to the TRANS chairs on this topic: if we can get an > agreement in principle on the ART mailing list that BCP 190 is too strict and > needs to be updated to allow the kinds of exceptions envisioned by TRANS, I'm not sure it's BCP 190 that is too strict, but the IESG's DISCUSSes are too strict in their interpretation of it and the wisdom of treating non-conformity with a BCP as somehow being disallowed in an Experimental status specification. If you read BCP 190, it doesn't consistently state requirements for conformance with it. The abstract provides what I thought were sufficient context: While it is common for schemes to further delegate their substructure to the URI's owner, publishing independent standards that mandate particular forms of URI substructure is inappropriate, because that essentially usurps ownership. This document further describes this problematic practice and provides some acceptable alternatives for use in standards. This seems to focus the intended scope to "publishing independent standards" and that the consequence of non-conformance would be something that might be "problematic" if not completely "inappropriate" because it "essentially usurps ownership" where "ownerships is defined with a (normative) reference to https://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-webarch-20041215/#uri-ownership From nobody Tue Jul 23 12:54:43 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65A69120961 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 12:54:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Tue, 23 Jul 2019 15:54:27 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <2ba63f8c-0f61-bd59-fbca-9d782a0d9818@mnt.se> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 15:54:24 -0400 Cc: art@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <58BF6171-03BB-4F83-940F-3A101EFDD67F@mnot.net> <2ba63f8c-0f61-bd59-fbca-9d782a0d9818@mnt.se> To: Leif Johansson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] On BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 19:54:41 -0000 > On 23 Jul 2019, at 3:34 pm, Leif Johansson wrote: >=20 > Hi Mark, >=20 >>=20 >> In short, I'm not concerned about *this* IETF specification violating = the BCP, I'm concerned when there are 1,000 specs that do so (which may = not be that far away, given how many specs are being built on top of = HTTP).=20 >=20 > Playing devils advocate: how is BCP190 then a BCP? I understand there > may be an argument for the B and the C but if there are really 1000s > of APIs that does what BCP190 say you MUST NOT, then in what sense > does this represent Best Current /Practice/? There aren't; I was speaking about the future. Chees, >=20 > I am not being facetious. >=20 > Cheers Leif >=20 > _______________________________________________ > art mailing list > art@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Tue Jul 23 13:14:11 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 601FF120352 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 13:14:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.68 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.68 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hA4O3la72n4n for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 13:14:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8F7D712036D for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 13:14:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Orochi.local ([196.52.21.201]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id x6NKDodv036125 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 23 Jul 2019 15:13:52 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1563912834; bh=aW4lNA0n45BpspRb9+Tk+lGcZYLbr07I69RU7ItyLQs=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=jns8rEKDzbArQMpK+jzly/0j6/RdeAj/aO59QlLEscfa2c+9jeiO7azjZSJSBxLG7 ZcFuXwdLQMXee7mQMmJ3GScfdzJPk2DxhgwFliA1M3ljzotLfYis3NUd4eSIUsGhLj wCrZodS1BBpQD69WxLwfg+xxoxakCQAx7NjVcaag= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [196.52.21.201] claimed to be Orochi.local To: Larry Masinter , "'Stephen Farrell'" , "'Carsten Bormann'" Cc: art@ietf.org References: <422255D5-FD8A-48D8-8442-1A13E3E7B884@tzi.org> <8872cc5c-34c5-845c-c930-3a7f0e3501f2@nostrum.com> <52b99182-686d-4c12-9a3a-24dc8d696c73@cs.tcd.ie> <01c701d5418f$85e90f70$91bb2e50$@acm.org> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <5d6deecc-c422-d2ed-52bf-5286796a3421@nostrum.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 16:13:50 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <01c701d5418f$85e90f70$91bb2e50$@acm.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] BCP190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 20:14:09 -0000 On 7/23/19 15:47, Larry Masinter wrote: > I'm not sure it's BCP 190 that is too strict, but the IESG's DISCUSSes are > too strict in their interpretation of it and the wisdom of treating > non-conformity with a BCP as somehow being disallowed in an > Experimental status specification. The TRANS working group is chartered to eventually progress this specification from Experimental to Standards Track. What do you believe happens at that point? /a From nobody Tue Jul 23 13:26:17 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF94E12099D for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 13:26:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nomountain-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mTelz60joOO5 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 13:26:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x82d.google.com (mail-qt1-x82d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 54BA21209A7 for ; 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Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5d6deecc-c422-d2ed-52bf-5286796a3421@nostrum.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="CxbwWB0xIcBPEAENoJ7jbI6RyrtNa19i0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] BCP190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 20:26:16 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --CxbwWB0xIcBPEAENoJ7jbI6RyrtNa19i0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="IjpU1L8AJfPoHdsJKS3N2OLBVluT0NCL1"; protected-headers="v1" From: Melinda Shore To: art@ietf.org Message-ID: <9451df4c-74dc-8dd6-05e1-175f9a39ee2e@nomountain.net> Subject: Re: [art] BCP190 References: <422255D5-FD8A-48D8-8442-1A13E3E7B884@tzi.org> <8872cc5c-34c5-845c-c930-3a7f0e3501f2@nostrum.com> <52b99182-686d-4c12-9a3a-24dc8d696c73@cs.tcd.ie> <01c701d5418f$85e90f70$91bb2e50$@acm.org> <5d6deecc-c422-d2ed-52bf-5286796a3421@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <5d6deecc-c422-d2ed-52bf-5286796a3421@nostrum.com> --IjpU1L8AJfPoHdsJKS3N2OLBVluT0NCL1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7/23/19 4:13 PM, Adam Roach wrote: > The TRANS working group is chartered to eventually progress this > specification from Experimental to Standards Track. What do you believe= > happens at that point? Yes, I think we do need to see this resolved. Melinda --=20 Software longa, hardware brevis PGP key fingerprint 4F68 2D93 2A17 96F8 20F2 34C0 DFB8 9172 9A76 DB8F --IjpU1L8AJfPoHdsJKS3N2OLBVluT0NCL1-- --CxbwWB0xIcBPEAENoJ7jbI6RyrtNa19i0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEET2gtkyoXlvgg8jTA37iRcpp2248FAl03bVoACgkQ37iRcpp2 24/CBw/+JDdGqoffnnwnlCHt9XoQQCHNfXtqRSXeUMZejXuPAo6muqROCLgCTAME uyhv5WursdV5SD97jZ7RGODitVgdcOjChmeAGznvyLQT0sXuzc7NdSDyyP/xaO3p g+9Ik1zgip2SsWlGKpaOtAU1+xeus374rS1yw0Qqisg9yHkV4xQgmlE1+Q0qEfAR 4N+6sCUSNbQzQ5UAHzvTUlP6tESURbgPDbmH3yEzhB2S/u8z+XuXsiSlhAhimTpA QBy23kEozL8CbYBLsHwAggEz65eU91glwlCt6Lzt6IZD6mFKAsDcn5/XPY3JjJ7G 0jM+xE5d+q7c+76wkbI1jdbh3oPG5xN/FS5eiL/5C1IIihkNN9ysDnyV7J6Hjg50 4XvXYnSJPjNxCfnhHpdsSzqm2b9cSBpLQbGeRofpOruAe7STRPDvhptE/HnzIVWw laVbivgTjUJEPrwOiXDjNHBBgtTvlYej6qKaWtgghltPa6K3tkPOfh+GV7Nzk3Sh mBbchjZgQhufFfq7la1SIl22VrjkTrhy5tPrkQbmzi3JRjyhYSnRsnfuXUPB6qr8 r9h/yhMiZuRgzOXPTYt3471/I0MZrsJ6u5JJMI34byZI1dOdssc9ykr6NsFfyBfr vea9tvhD9IE0rVfemr1sNrfjCpsPRB8kYhVv4W5qAaWX/FzbeOM= =IHEz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --CxbwWB0xIcBPEAENoJ7jbI6RyrtNa19i0-- From nobody Tue Jul 23 13:28:46 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 005561209A5 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 13:28:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnt-se.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bdhiRo6ZqIcP for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 13:28:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-xe32.google.com (mail-vs1-xe32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A6E361209D0 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 13:28:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-xe32.google.com with SMTP id j26so29847185vsn.10 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 13:28:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnt-se.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=IQASaSnc6bFypn3/KP1FkzR2VWfutfLmcjc9e3VkPuI=; b=mpOfZoOx4ahDL8EyRpHIkOcmovpcbIHXiaXtMFUugoaWtIKfSIz9LiCm2J22ZWNaXD Dgfswl2/z0o7Nnb+Y1Eag0x0TUnnjad+CjJ5XU/6+IDT/LFvrPEGJNG7flKZldAtz8t+ HDh1UY0oHIsxVG4s3bBoA42jBaQmDsw2gIYzliegueSIgzFZXV4PYPlrh4GykS9+VQmM Rvd5Bs+RJYT7epZ3/fUzVyzhhNqg7CeLK2Yeu17TfC1Ny3aRAII4BiDB+d88O7hvJ+Qk 0TJO/rsR4nRRLkMwFBH03jCFe3ZuSamXRJb6vhCoqvz1izPeMN7IUpTHRoU2HfmbnOJ9 cFfg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=IQASaSnc6bFypn3/KP1FkzR2VWfutfLmcjc9e3VkPuI=; b=qtCz6cOH++aBu5NfKSpUD/BGtWse6Imcsp2tWI0ybL5se7MqlRVPQmE0dFyvi30caQ YsBgos+BsGO6KQaqc9pWX95pEmes097JSTqrUGj2sl8MO13UTEFGk0QX7v3H2xB76ibE q0hDSJ8zTKVNcVXxgLV9ZlDYBNtCOEKd8oTk6gkBK8YO3ok1vuTzlulG7aoRQgoV3uYi 8wm40RjshVue8MzjzsRjMRCCnv/lBSj+To1npWXZziDe58vAhFIp6RlURinu1aMXgjpY Ly7nj60RfHiMQqU8btTNvh9P4JztUKuPVde2PcQjxvrVkQBzBWWZ8I8e2NoUwEpaWGrC XCHw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV/zrvBv+GWlOZZt5nJQyil7oDOcnkzq2LknM3gkJgtQwf8y/Xr czUpBs/+2KD2lZoBubNAQGYfP2zi X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwA8AZq0r7NsCLux34tBbBsdNW0Z4fCBvZ1RLKIK65zmjXLJBd7uEtFAVlj5ziSu1P3iBFZ4Q== X-Received: by 2002:a67:68d4:: with SMTP id d203mr52922160vsc.28.1563913711373; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 13:28:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:67c:370:128:a8ff:b295:75a9:1614? ([2001:67c:370:128:a8ff:b295:75a9:1614]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u5sm43607752uah.0.2019.07.23.13.28.30 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 23 Jul 2019 13:28:30 -0700 (PDT) To: Mark Nottingham Cc: art@ietf.org References: <58BF6171-03BB-4F83-940F-3A101EFDD67F@mnot.net> <2ba63f8c-0f61-bd59-fbca-9d782a0d9818@mnt.se> From: Leif Johansson Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=leifj@mnt.se; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQGiBD7DfnwRBADpIpOw6bXfx2Yo3vac/j5WzVcWNZKuiYc4uuFnBYxH8zTA5cdwytuOYNte cX1yrPgmObfPVU0EFktdBMFgLE5TNRUMeJZTmAl3QYDm8N32SeSUEb6GPFsUTGgxsCW3GVAo q6DBopKqhR9HT0+crQakbc7XkS4FjeBWiXjuNf/IqwCgyoa2Qfq8UdjbcH+DRGzPnRTeqzEE ALIEsCzDp4HQqXqqNLCoExbgmCrEHvnqFmilCHJVnyuY8LXmcpq2uwJaiIdsTqLeQ8WrMxWg mZc6F9QSdLP6MVZT3v+5OqOZMUDsu4nGom3HH+tG238vMSEF+klGdrI0wdscrY+28Oshjhqj 4FZxCwdNU9RTU8xQ9IoObiEo1yOHBADK9a5GhkLT+d2cb48orETGtG7i//HOnstouw/TmEUX reZPtT6wpIdN9Jf3W80GA6A34VEGA/I+/5e+9nFvINpLvEF2ghJBH+sWwQ8EXpo0M/yir9oG eJI7gpOHRj5Mq9uqFG0wcamInuWgbMP1cefjXusHbHyDFKr7ydWSsZHqXrQdTGVpZiBKb2hh bnNzb24gPGxlaWZqQG1udC5zZT6IYAQTEQIAIAUCSnC8wwIbIwYLCQgHAwIEFQIIAwQWAgMB Ah4BAheAAAoJEPCcfBbWzGZ3x8MAnimIMTFOH4LLfp8bQnSPWm6BQyA6AKCk4S46++PpqtTM 0wIZ+kuYaBtky7kCDQQ+w36FEAgAr1zK1qIIXmoeEqFulgFi17FRpSibNwwge9bkG2+IO7MO m4Ih+f4CRkqaP5U5diiWb4nyQc/Yqzf3TTSE+CH0ghvDCwfZHrzUsVl9t57S2RFKaQhDUUw3 lz0TgKN66z1IRnQEARuz9PFd96pIhLaJBOn0e55Cu5qqJVwGpst3+I3jqT/cxjymRxPz2O6R 9k/ZOOiOGROZYAjNHKcdoeBr7OaIHcPRCi1R8MBKE4HOK1SwaVvs26Fd2enixIOBmyFTkrue 3VgaAd3zrJauD0qa/u5y2kGEyFFJwNsKnoX0aCmNNIG+aKvnSCWfba8bmYOAsbxS2lo4MKmu DM0rrVyLhwADBQf/VzM77aviZ3Ir7qXj0uV/62wyrg8/5flXl8XjuATewD+hTaux1lg5LgPU 9cokMHYHrTsnp79nhEB9qOpsQLX+npae7a27x3zyqLP0V7neyKy1ycuBI9KU9B3ivgSMRlKR 91GcmUpRnKiSnxPYNtq018mY72YYHCpfAh0OOUA88bxbYIuF5cv9dYyOBhNEkI8xB1VOWev1 CPkPb0DwDABHdOBq9e0hT3OUOaat2JPwCEHU2NTGsYFuZRysq8xnxFgHd00+h2OJZ50UYVpB jDxaCj5gvHHFFnmfCLD5VqjEJGi4k2znZHg67i2pw0f5BSq8fsfdUML35LzL/aaZPMzlg4hG BBgRAgAGBQI+w36FAAoJEPCcfBbWzGZ3djcAnAxF3084vKlsRNGcyj/rn5lA4Q+nAKCnjZYX snFG51wbu8OI88aj3LJE5w== Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 22:28:29 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] On BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 20:28:45 -0000 On 2019-07-23 21:54, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > >> On 23 Jul 2019, at 3:34 pm, Leif Johansson wrote: >> >> Hi Mark, >> >>> >>> In short, I'm not concerned about *this* IETF specification violating the BCP, I'm concerned when there are 1,000 specs that do so (which may not be that far away, given how many specs are being built on top of HTTP). >> >> Playing devils advocate: how is BCP190 then a BCP? I understand there >> may be an argument for the B and the C but if there are really 1000s >> of APIs that does what BCP190 say you MUST NOT, then in what sense >> does this represent Best Current /Practice/? > > There aren't; I was speaking about the future. Ah so the BCP designation is aspirational? I personally think thats a problematic use of BCPs Cheers Leif From nobody Tue Jul 23 13:35:35 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DC7E12096F for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 13:35:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=iFo28Py2; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=D5e/PHBt Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y1Pl66TYCIDE for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 13:35:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ABF08120904 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 13:35:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB9B621FC5; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 16:35:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 23 Jul 2019 16:35:30 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:subject :date:message-id:references:cc:in-reply-to:to; s=fm3; bh=e5usb+R H/F64D5UQMJ4IEsD0KaXeiVxFb4CUUBdiUU4=; b=iFo28Py2eSV8F3pMf8TobzW 9FGbLet471PV56G2n0F+fB9ZKxPG/aoFaXrikE4ZH6XPlWWf/ddUskksB0CeNjMw InqTpT5u2YmKOQt+mceeTfX2Lv/71XB067WuL7y3XfdvURqSzeIfRkA16dtjmbxL jvRIcQ2DTHF2lRu4akM9agZSsL8xDraTLYOuFxj7H3vf+JQf+8SlsLyr9pd82BdM Vwkc24zpi56rG+I8ER2y6Q68d8416WH+5g7kK/XAEiKreDeQgtWrFFQwU/C1EnCS Y7cW4yU8JdwA6s3L3oQ0CMAeBKlAsHFWJ1IQf1w8wR7O09jxzXPWT52V7E6pAeA= = DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=e5usb+RH/F64D5UQMJ4IEsD0KaXeiVxFb4CUUBdiU U4=; b=D5e/PHBt077AZakWnm3OqC/3Oa4K70QaEv57BSV4VAJIemC4lFDKJImyA Tb0cHm260EhmlD+Hp7m6yvLDMNSKz0HqQzaV9us2XIeQhDBiE7IB6n65uRHqec23 cPUvwqjCI5y1ieCoXrcVGXz4WWZXfYFIgI/2EQcPdsAg/uA05C7AD+C8fwDI1Xd+ LYTK0uU2TQV+HrEr2rBxRZUqKhNAL65PLlytpyEnrtbVGarUg10qN+mZidJDNZ6A IH33xpoJAQprtVS5CIm91Q7mEefA+iP9CP6h4VFmRcqzjErJeNrDigEY6uPPskTI R+R9BinfpoKufwD1rdtkm/D4GKchw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduvddrjeekgdduheduucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptgfghfggufffkfhfjgfvofesthhqmhdthhdtjeenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhk ucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucfkphepfedurd dufeefrdduvdelrdegnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohht rdhnvghtnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [31.133.129.4] (dhcp-8104.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.129.4]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 25B09380084; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 16:35:29 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Mark Nottingham Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 16:34:46 -0400 Message-Id: <42C8475A-6DFE-4DC6-B608-8159B90F9CDB@mnot.net> References: <58BF6171-03BB-4F83-940F-3A101EFDD67F@mnot.net> <2ba63f8c-0f61-bd59-fbca-9d782a0d9818@mnt.se> Cc: art@ietf.org In-Reply-To: To: Leif Johansson X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16F203) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] On BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 20:35:34 -0000 Please re-read; it=E2=80=99s to prevent future problems.=20 Sent from my iPhone > On 23 Jul 2019, at 4:28 pm, Leif Johansson wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On 2019-07-23 21:54, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >>> On 23 Jul 2019, at 3:34 pm, Leif Johansson wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi Mark, >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> In short, I'm not concerned about *this* IETF specification violating t= he BCP, I'm concerned when there are 1,000 specs that do so (which may not b= e that far away, given how many specs are being built on top of HTTP).=20 >>>=20 >>> Playing devils advocate: how is BCP190 then a BCP? I understand there >>> may be an argument for the B and the C but if there are really 1000s >>> of APIs that does what BCP190 say you MUST NOT, then in what sense >>> does this represent Best Current /Practice/? >>=20 >> There aren't; I was speaking about the future. >=20 >=20 > Ah so the BCP designation is aspirational? I personally think thats a > problematic use of BCPs >=20 > Cheers Leif From nobody Tue Jul 23 14:21:55 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 634BE1202C3 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 14:21:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.558 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.558 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.091, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aXRVeZfY0Zp0 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 14:21:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-x634.google.com (mail-pl1-x634.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::634]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 29CEF1203C2 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 14:21:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-x634.google.com with SMTP id c2so21064365plz.13 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 14:21:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=U8Jjow+a/tB/C9NCntzD8B4XEiZqiL+jaVVWyZ/hYiI=; b=HAIz255Tuealo0G2NDY0nlexqtyJyn819L1nJga66fq1wg4m96RfMngLv3DAXPsEZz Xif0wjpgb5aSYp2jM17dYrI3vGaGhJnQyWUkZo/8B2t/aqd+oao7A4KBAP7GtOFqlgT4 8nUslKkM7xmzI7OFYg0fJwQsYaEzBy3IL+TJ813NPRxfBjPSHR6UEQYKiffQ8TRgQt/3 NrAXPc7Nah85MBSOmdKrVIQLSHv6qIteOy+8tAdXOci/DPe0jpuSV7tP6nS+lWnff5gH 2b4/4ip2584ahuottyUP6X8ORDrxidcQuL1GasBWI4g8HXx9gpFObHFxaHMTw1SJ8Kt6 GjLg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject :date:message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=U8Jjow+a/tB/C9NCntzD8B4XEiZqiL+jaVVWyZ/hYiI=; b=myeW3BcninSSfCzzs8B0BUmtilZBSYSjE9DqLTfTiOBqv6b2gsxxcS1l6DRJJrM4g2 HKUF0D/HqLvFsYeZjQ3Be5v4P87BOYUkVSeyBCouzwjHsyTTnhz5MLgNxQ8NWh7Fwqsp UgVBmNihODCRIPtiNjluIx5lGTflVunzTLeU9UT22zq/9dwamWTsXOKGZZTVnwPCK7Yi fczB1mB8pFeTgqMw1zkT6MhG6qyTBwK3QZrwZoB/F6MUrbqv3Cc53XC9ZaOfHXg7hi+w ZTXj3I5eurTV07aQ/ridRgp5dnREVX2ByFwBDghjW9VXkp0dX3InpCmFgJkxzIMddxr2 TomA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUTyyXTCML46Fz379qLctthsSuQ8VqDqe+v0SKdnCDKEdhSNZD+ 7PwUBcxRvANIjoba0kldcFg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz22jXeHH8PcXCNl1HVMaCBewK679ZO0VXlOGd43W7Tu7aHJjs3pilOyJ7qeX7aC4f9i5EhDA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:9f8e:: with SMTP id g14mr36522635plq.67.1563916911479; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 14:21:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TVPC (c-67-169-101-78.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [67.169.101.78]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 35sm45609218pgw.91.2019.07.23.14.21.49 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 23 Jul 2019 14:21:50 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Larry Masinter From: Larry Masinter X-Google-Original-From: "Larry Masinter" To: "'Adam Roach'" , "'Stephen Farrell'" , "'Carsten Bormann'" Cc: References: <422255D5-FD8A-48D8-8442-1A13E3E7B884@tzi.org> <8872cc5c-34c5-845c-c930-3a7f0e3501f2@nostrum.com> <52b99182-686d-4c12-9a3a-24dc8d696c73@cs.tcd.ie> <01c701d5418f$85e90f70$91bb2e50$@acm.org> <5d6deecc-c422-d2ed-52bf-5286796a3421@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <5d6deecc-c422-d2ed-52bf-5286796a3421@nostrum.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 14:21:50 -0700 Message-ID: <029c01d5419c$a52003a0$ef600ae0$@acm.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 thread-index: AQGxEGAU87s7IgXvYz/8pZcrB3l+LgHXAC01AocadQ4CEfubxAGxXd4JAhCtupQCQ09IHQMGt7XDpqUlIDA= Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] BCP190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 21:21:53 -0000 > The TRANS working group is chartered to eventually progress this > specification from Experimental to Standards Track. What do you = believe > happens at that point? Since the topic of URL ownership straddles multiple groups in multiple = organizations (ARTWG, HTTPBISWG, IESG in IETF, W3CTAG in W3C, UASG in = ICANN) It's hard to be optimistic, but ideally the results of the Experimental=20 implementations will be useful in guiding an update to BCP190 or even a broader set of guidelines for URL use in APIs. In particular, all of the complexity in HAL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypertext_Application_Language https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kelly-json-hal-08=20 seems to focus on reducing operational difficulties or administrative = problems by adding another level of indirection. In particular, I might suggest the Note added to the preface of the = Experimental specification should solicit feedback on these kinds of = open issues. From nobody Tue Jul 23 14:24:47 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A205B1202DF for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 14:24:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnt-se.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kZdUZszRbD6t for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 14:24:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x82d.google.com (mail-qt1-x82d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2EC2E1202C3 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 14:24:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x82d.google.com with SMTP id w17so43322939qto.10 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 14:24:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnt-se.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=NQL0alrZDzUEmxo3XUSB6qXdK45Jk7bSx8Cb1WbECKs=; b=P5gCowk4xsVChhTAqwazQIFGj/nqo2znBOh51H3uv76QT1ZK+HoUTbYtc2LUg3Q2yw kie6bQHbfmrj1zzPfMrNfZj7Jc9wToVnCTQdUyVewekF/m0LqgKnZrfDN+/9APRIkfXH Mui1C2lOQcQ+oVRkpT2lSzumvKflBCznDADBllnjgmViRYIHJWRGw0WZSjQZExCVhfCO i3OTDPWed8ZLsGK+DCL581sIAbKsUjpQKSINwTxj2ujhbqOzKfmepKNvwXDqO6Z8bDeQ iw0jqecCHJFw5gEUjjlhwTjXx7pwORZOZNABD3f+XuL/CRG/Ody1iR7aJnBWtsaIZEUs bA7w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=NQL0alrZDzUEmxo3XUSB6qXdK45Jk7bSx8Cb1WbECKs=; b=XH57epQAUIj1Xqfaq/Tf+qJjXmGUyNloyt2ww+JTc3zVJ7j8Q5mQeLSZposaimKbY9 3CqTYOij4GsMDNm4K5dvkzx0ebK1DDztlCU53AZEkroGVFsYUE4RZtPsvgNAW4Vu4z5j 1iJG8pxYU6Le+L3p+DaV3MVwmd7cFBtRteCGC3NV7T4f1sf64LBOJ9gZUwMXIJydyc+V mKRWRttPrByCmuTl7h+9CRxEGIhP5bQI9sJJwL605Rit0KfVueRawYA9TTFDPBrAU1st X5RDaKYxTuo08EQlM3PSAC2gyccw9BjX8zULatXMxW3nQFE/EgjXWBf83cXidPLKyxd2 65eQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVgiQKQkzG6aX0STjpAOXMATdcOjo8dTIwOiXq9IIm01W2A5asL man/FRNfQNolQVpLMcx87dnYv05z X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqweA+y+lN89mzRacSEXiLgivvBVYSApXW91MydJlXJjj3YojRG/yMjP5fIYPl7Zuwijoe953A== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:4a10:: with SMTP id x16mr54522718qtq.282.1563917083160; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 14:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [31.133.147.51] (dhcp-9333.meeting.ietf.org. [31.133.147.51]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c40sm27072880qtd.14.2019.07.23.14.24.42 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 23 Jul 2019 14:24:42 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Leif Johansson X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16F203) In-Reply-To: <42C8475A-6DFE-4DC6-B608-8159B90F9CDB@mnot.net> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 17:24:33 -0400 Cc: art@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <55E6A246-4D77-44DA-AF2B-AA9C42FACC2F@mnt.se> References: <58BF6171-03BB-4F83-940F-3A101EFDD67F@mnot.net> <2ba63f8c-0f61-bd59-fbca-9d782a0d9818@mnt.se> <42C8475A-6DFE-4DC6-B608-8159B90F9CDB@mnot.net> To: Mark Nottingham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] On BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 21:24:46 -0000 Skickat fr=C3=A5n min iPhone > 23 juli 2019 kl. 16:34 skrev Mark Nottingham : >=20 > Please re-read; it=E2=80=99s to prevent future problems.=20 To me that is the definition of aspiration: you hope that you will alter beh= aviour in the future. How do you measure success? Cheers Leif >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 >> On 23 Jul 2019, at 4:28 pm, Leif Johansson wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> On 2019-07-23 21:54, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On 23 Jul 2019, at 3:34 pm, Leif Johansson wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Hi Mark, >>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> In short, I'm not concerned about *this* IETF specification violating t= he BCP, I'm concerned when there are 1,000 specs that do so (which may not b= e that far away, given how many specs are being built on top of HTTP).=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Playing devils advocate: how is BCP190 then a BCP? I understand there >>>> may be an argument for the B and the C but if there are really 1000s >>>> of APIs that does what BCP190 say you MUST NOT, then in what sense >>>> does this represent Best Current /Practice/? >>>=20 >>> There aren't; I was speaking about the future. >>=20 >>=20 >> Ah so the BCP designation is aspirational? I personally think thats a >> problematic use of BCPs >>=20 >> Cheers Leif >=20 From nobody Tue Jul 23 14:49:33 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DB5F1209C0 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 14:49:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.979 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.979 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tK7CfAaWhs1a for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 14:49:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AFA281209BF for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 14:49:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Orochi.local ([196.52.21.211]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id x6NLn5lY051613 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 23 Jul 2019 16:49:13 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1563918557; bh=TPX5iI2QBc1Ao8juTi6czyEO7PTzfzyPBVua8aUMrts=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=ZJaVgg+lNax7WQlemiaECPwXqTvDL9mYfJDUvL2WbS3uIbUqxKOdMOYgV/FYuwhc6 pJUzgeMOIMHpcrLV9ZHmhJZFbQOQoj80iqmoRPmWHstp4Hi1q7/UxXSEGiFwSjTvbg V4Dwxu38JQshst9sXfQDV8jNDis5zl4G/89Hu1fk= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [196.52.21.211] claimed to be Orochi.local To: Leif Johansson , Mark Nottingham Cc: art@ietf.org References: <58BF6171-03BB-4F83-940F-3A101EFDD67F@mnot.net> <2ba63f8c-0f61-bd59-fbca-9d782a0d9818@mnt.se> <42C8475A-6DFE-4DC6-B608-8159B90F9CDB@mnot.net> <55E6A246-4D77-44DA-AF2B-AA9C42FACC2F@mnt.se> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <750cb62e-1256-4e3f-a072-438f6d468f2d@nostrum.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 17:49:03 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <55E6A246-4D77-44DA-AF2B-AA9C42FACC2F@mnt.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] On BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 21:49:31 -0000 Leif -- It seems to me, watching this conversation, that you and Mark are talking past each other. While I understand the points he is making, I'm having a hard time following your line of logic given that BCP 190 does, in fact, codify practices that have largely been applied to URI usage in the past (albeit only in an ad-hoc fashion prior to its publication). It's done a pretty reasonable job of keeping protocols from co-opting parts of the URI space so far, and will ostensibly continue to do so into the future. Perhaps you could take a fresh run at explaining what you think the problem is? /a On 7/23/19 17:24, Leif Johansson wrote: > > Skickat från min iPhone > >> 23 juli 2019 kl. 16:34 skrev Mark Nottingham : >> >> Please re-read; it’s to prevent future problems. > To me that is the definition of aspiration: you hope that you will alter behaviour in the future. > > How do you measure success? > > Cheers Leif > >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On 23 Jul 2019, at 4:28 pm, Leif Johansson wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> On 2019-07-23 21:54, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 23 Jul 2019, at 3:34 pm, Leif Johansson wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Mark, >>>>> >>>>>> In short, I'm not concerned about *this* IETF specification violating the BCP, I'm concerned when there are 1,000 specs that do so (which may not be that far away, given how many specs are being built on top of HTTP). >>>>> Playing devils advocate: how is BCP190 then a BCP? I understand there >>>>> may be an argument for the B and the C but if there are really 1000s >>>>> of APIs that does what BCP190 say you MUST NOT, then in what sense >>>>> does this represent Best Current /Practice/? >>>> There aren't; I was speaking about the future. >>> >>> Ah so the BCP designation is aspirational? I personally think thats a >>> problematic use of BCPs >>> >>> Cheers Leif > _______________________________________________ > art mailing list > art@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art From nobody Tue Jul 23 15:25:17 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D759120991 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 15:25:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnt-se.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ueDcruMocqgA for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 15:25:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x82b.google.com (mail-qt1-x82b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DFF821209B9 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 15:25:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x82b.google.com with SMTP id x22so38587530qtp.12 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 15:25:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnt-se.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=vxcDxicSt2TmpZagrx6aDGMftMChlKigK9CucJ/5JM8=; b=fZlYNadP2m5Wm+h2GBp8XM2krOK47K/DOX86fgBDF9fjQ/hiWiJ2iPtD0bc8JLPXNG N/rMy21y2iYNqVK9eatJxjBZqp8YVFaSaJA0AzkhfmIXHqyF5HVSk2aQoL6eHHOHEPoR olBisgQoeSAYV0q4Vpq+CeN5XDtM6TYHwVRL6TYVf4yenWgYcpnXWsdpxzytFBw3hgGQ eRrqv1JprnHrkn4R41Dbw/hY/Eu8iO5FFFqm7PRGTdyPQtbHSE6mvE4U5d5X7J83MWRz uuRj/fhnoGFvOiwqA0OVJK5dhRrznyYzCP7I7FzOic5rSvYX5Yas36Bqwe4K33rWa4pk z8yQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=vxcDxicSt2TmpZagrx6aDGMftMChlKigK9CucJ/5JM8=; b=KqLVK2IZFeA64M5es5uGjT4V7qk3kueXE932K0+t2a2FHxsp07p+TnN5EmLYRz37f1 ftQ67CJa7P9OqVuGAG5HmEoMzVdmlCVVv49PBSSSdI2UjPu2qLdYTuavBiWk74ZQ036p 0MTOzgVvii3Lq2MLsFuu9wyOa0I0uii63Xhpcbd1ZCWNYSfOezuKt4gK99Fs4nMadlwp pgGgLNivJ6f3rLdYa4lUGCX3e/6GBuOiIBoeGE/b+WZAVZKHY0DsGcju4j/JIWOpvhpU 3h1Vr8XjUD2XSZZxjOcSkvyP36dXftO0efGu9GW+CIkFnfb7ViLy17quJpuLGT6qMgCx GP/A== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVf56gCNEEOWFg8K+9vTm29NvWRZvG1ifY6Cl1J+cZ8YNhIikYU b780xF4tlcu7QFXb2ac914j0auB2 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxkQogs+sZ6MxLIkCeTCxsip8B0U2bSPxxOevFUxeAXDUWci086L/93hxMAyt5uKMB5S76BMw== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:5346:: with SMTP id d6mr53700465qto.39.1563920705807; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 15:25:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:67c:1232:144:d911:3dae:2030:1fcd? ([2001:67c:1232:144:d911:3dae:2030:1fcd]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j6sm19615653qkf.119.2019.07.23.15.25.05 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 23 Jul 2019 15:25:05 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Leif Johansson X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16F203) In-Reply-To: <750cb62e-1256-4e3f-a072-438f6d468f2d@nostrum.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 18:25:04 -0400 Cc: Mark Nottingham , art@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9847EF63-6BDE-4746-81C7-EA446FC5938E@mnt.se> References: <58BF6171-03BB-4F83-940F-3A101EFDD67F@mnot.net> <2ba63f8c-0f61-bd59-fbca-9d782a0d9818@mnt.se> <42C8475A-6DFE-4DC6-B608-8159B90F9CDB@mnot.net> <55E6A246-4D77-44DA-AF2B-AA9C42FACC2F@mnt.se> <750cb62e-1256-4e3f-a072-438f6d468f2d@nostrum.com> To: Adam Roach Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] On BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 22:25:16 -0000 Skickat fr=C3=A5n min iPhone > 23 juli 2019 kl. 17:49 skrev Adam Roach : >=20 > Leif -- >=20 > It seems to me, watching this conversation, that you and Mark are talking p= ast each other. While I understand the points he is making, I'm having a har= d time following your line of logic given that BCP 190 does, in fact, codify= practices that have largely been applied to URI usage in the past (albeit o= nly in an ad-hoc fashion prior to its publication). It's done a pretty reaso= nable job of keeping protocols from co-opting parts of the URI space so far,= and will ostensibly continue to do so into the future. >=20 I read Mark saying that there are 1000s of APIs that get it wrong. That made= me ask if (and if so you you know) BCP190 is actually working. > Perhaps you could take a fresh run at explaining what you think the proble= m is? >=20 > /a >=20 >> On 7/23/19 17:24, Leif Johansson wrote: >>=20 >> Skickat fr=C3=A5n min iPhone >>=20 >>> 23 juli 2019 kl. 16:34 skrev Mark Nottingham : >>>=20 >>> Please re-read; it=E2=80=99s to prevent future problems. >> To me that is the definition of aspiration: you hope that you will alter b= ehaviour in the future. >>=20 >> How do you measure success? >>=20 >> Cheers Leif >>=20 >>> Sent from my iPhone >>>=20 >>>> On 23 Jul 2019, at 4:28 pm, Leif Johansson wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> On 2019-07-23 21:54, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>> On 23 Jul 2019, at 3:34 pm, Leif Johansson wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Hi Mark, >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> In short, I'm not concerned about *this* IETF specification violatin= g the BCP, I'm concerned when there are 1,000 specs that do so (which may no= t be that far away, given how many specs are being built on top of HTTP). >>>>>> Playing devils advocate: how is BCP190 then a BCP? I understand there= >>>>>> may be an argument for the B and the C but if there are really 1000s >>>>>> of APIs that does what BCP190 say you MUST NOT, then in what sense >>>>>> does this represent Best Current /Practice/? >>>>> There aren't; I was speaking about the future. >>>>=20 >>>> Ah so the BCP designation is aspirational? I personally think thats a >>>> problematic use of BCPs >>>>=20 >>>> Cheers Leif >> _______________________________________________ >> art mailing list >> art@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art >=20 >=20 From nobody Tue Jul 23 18:12:56 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C14CC1209B0 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 18:12:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=team.telstra.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EOUecvhP-ltk for ; 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Wed, 24 Jul 2019 01:10:46 +0000 From: "Manger, James" To: Mark Nottingham , ART Area Thread-Topic: [art] BCP190 Thread-Index: AQHVQOOXnc1UwWl06UeOlLmwmWahZabXk8YAgABsZICAAE1+AIAABRCAgAAFTgCAAAtaAIAAA48AgAAD/ACAABXpgIAAAtyAgABhWMA= Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 01:10:46 +0000 Message-ID: References: <422255D5-FD8A-48D8-8442-1A13E3E7B884@tzi.org> <8872cc5c-34c5-845c-c930-3a7f0e3501f2@nostrum.com> <52b99182-686d-4c12-9a3a-24dc8d696c73@cs.tcd.ie> <9240360A-3F24-4D9F-A247-E1111CEE5EF8@nostrum.com> <58caec85-e111-1628-3cdf-956fa1c1ad58@nostrum.com> <74E02CE5-39E3-4ED9-BBBA-122A807B5D84@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <74E02CE5-39E3-4ED9-BBBA-122A807B5D84@mnot.net> Accept-Language: en-AU, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: dlp-product: dlpe-windows dlp-version: 11.1.100.23 dlp-reaction: no-action authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=James.H.Manger@team.telstra.com; x-originating-ip: [203.35.9.32] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 3a96d858-903f-4d06-7e19-08d70fd3c23f x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; 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Tue, 23 Jul 2019 22:38:35 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1563939517; bh=oCtUcisSjHDYXP6TfSLxkdQt0oyjGpMMP0NmL9mIcuk=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=hN9KkKkqivDdebFlEwkNgVTWtcWgEFAbFK18TDIkSAtGGzrsioJ+wUmUTdRPLVkTP mSutZV5NCVWaTxGVt+ffB9/ccXHXbL0bKi7ri1PR+KEtlWivXE8ijadBtNuncSJkM0 kRnJZxwY0g2Kpq9hrdgzf8eMKDj/tfVA1qpCdUZI= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [196.52.21.207] claimed to be Orochi.local To: Leif Johansson Cc: Mark Nottingham , art@ietf.org References: <58BF6171-03BB-4F83-940F-3A101EFDD67F@mnot.net> <2ba63f8c-0f61-bd59-fbca-9d782a0d9818@mnt.se> <42C8475A-6DFE-4DC6-B608-8159B90F9CDB@mnot.net> <55E6A246-4D77-44DA-AF2B-AA9C42FACC2F@mnt.se> <750cb62e-1256-4e3f-a072-438f6d468f2d@nostrum.com> <9847EF63-6BDE-4746-81C7-EA446FC5938E@mnt.se> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <14ed2e66-938e-9ffd-7ff4-ef632c95db14@nostrum.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 23:38:33 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9847EF63-6BDE-4746-81C7-EA446FC5938E@mnt.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] On BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 03:38:39 -0000 On 7/23/19 18:25, Leif Johansson wrote: > > Skickat från min iPhone > >> 23 juli 2019 kl. 17:49 skrev Adam Roach : >> >> Leif -- >> >> It seems to me, watching this conversation, that you and Mark are talking past each other. While I understand the points he is making, I'm having a hard time following your line of logic given that BCP 190 does, in fact, codify practices that have largely been applied to URI usage in the past (albeit only in an ad-hoc fashion prior to its publication). It's done a pretty reasonable job of keeping protocols from co-opting parts of the URI space so far, and will ostensibly continue to do so into the future. >> > I read Mark saying that there are 1000s of APIs that get it wrong. That made me ask if (and if so you you know) BCP190 is actually working. Ah. I'm pretty sure -- and Mark can confirm -- that what he meant to convey by that statement is that he's concerned about the impacts of 1000s of APIs eroding the usable URI namespace in the future if we were to abandon or substantially weaken the constraints outlined in BCP 190. /a From nobody Wed Jul 24 05:57:20 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9281D120071 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 05:57:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5eu0tDVDi1Uo for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 05:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppsw-30.csi.cam.ac.uk (ppsw-30.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.130]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6AD04120058 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 05:57:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Cam-AntiVirus: no malware found X-Cam-ScannerInfo: http://help.uis.cam.ac.uk/email-scanner-virus Received: from grey.csi.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.57.57]:54616) by ppsw-30.csi.cam.ac.uk (ppsw.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.136]:25) with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) id 1hqGpU-001oqW-fn (Exim 4.92) (return-path ); Wed, 24 Jul 2019 13:57:12 +0100 Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 13:57:12 +0100 From: Tony Finch To: Stephen Farrell cc: Adam Roach , Leif Johansson , art@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <3699ce1f-10bb-a1c0-8417-549284d18c49@cs.tcd.ie> Message-ID: References: <791b33b8-4696-f69c-aca3-8838b2caafd8@sectigo.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20190713054207.0bbd9b58@elandnews.com> <008901d5410d$90607b00$b1217100$@gmail.com> <529b1f23-75e7-c426-f884-8dd07825182d@nostrum.com> <1e6e3567-59d8-b868-4917-603b848ae984@mnt.se> <3699ce1f-10bb-a1c0-8417-549284d18c49@cs.tcd.ie> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (DEB 67 2015-01-07) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Against BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 12:57:19 -0000 Stephen Farrell wrote: > On 23/07/2019 16:46, Adam Roach wrote: > > > > The purpose of BCP 190 has never been to provide advantages to protocol > > designers. That is, in fact, the opposite of its purpose. The purpose of > > BCP 190 is to provide protections to the URI namespace and the people > > who own its governance (e.g., domain owners) against protocol designers. > > Right. The difference with trans is that there aren't a mass > of domain owners involved here, just a tiny tightly curated > list of them and they're basically the ones who designed the > protocol (give or take). There is no harm accruing here that > I can see. The problem that trans has also applies in circumstances where we might expect much wider population of servers. It's a problem for any protocol implemented as a server-side web app. I have personal web space under https://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~fanf/ where I can install web apps, and paths under that prefix have been delegated to me. I can't use that web space to deploy anything restricted by BCP 190, so BCP 190 has the opposite of its intended effect of allowing web server admins and their users to control their URL space, and allowing them to decide where they would like to install apps. I understand the point of using .well-known for information about the server itself or about the server's domain name. I don't understand the value of forcing an app to use .well-known when (like trans) it has a completely configurable URL prefix. Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch http://dotat.at/ Rattray Head to Berwick upon Tweed: South or southeast 3 to 5, but variable 2 for a time. Smooth or slight. Thundery showers at first in north, otherwise fair. Moderate or good, occasionally poor. From nobody Wed Jul 24 05:59:46 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC5621200D8 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 05:59:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=BajrYkU/; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=EgmJobBz Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VDDC0hoAKz2A for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 05:59:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 56B67120058 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 05:59:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92AA03E3; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 08:59:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 24 Jul 2019 08:59:40 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm3; bh=6 0GGyips2I1SqnXpAi6MO8DeLhEHc29Lq4AuUu3iCz4=; b=BajrYkU/wl2BJADKa LyfJYHQvdmnglXVMB895Gr6IC1p63FwpN+Qz2udath7PPMKJahNp+DzXW9LtGDgw aOp3wuBSGTYo85Zl4xWxw6yWX9+Z8Sl7dCnaoxw9NyjilPLBkrY3BV5DvpMsTnJR AW3ip5KLFHC5ZR1cvFNKHA+efF0khO2NRag8HVFFIJl0PhffcURVLqUsjadAy3ZV TUB4ehgPZT6sFeVQWIg0PqKYxZ3klRerzOL090TPuwufRqS+fPg3OkKBcZo3xkKO mW97Oa4lBewjZmn713OIFBrBZ/NUDrsJLZNZFb0rx4QZdF2S5A+xyUUlHnGedbaR Hflfg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=60GGyips2I1SqnXpAi6MO8DeLhEHc29Lq4AuUu3iC z4=; b=EgmJobBzfHdXNtlA96YxrsXV1IMjTZerOZSi3XGAJyWE7hZOMn48XSWfr /eoCkuEeimDBp/5Zg5KkZkKDVJB3AoptsHZ+tJbOXGcbvvIZLmgmuJGH0dNMaoZ6 XOROf4vtBykrMdG4kfzeUNnxB+riEONWt8a0fF2i4pqcibXWyA27FfIvIkMG24iL 33IjKUCn9ROMZRNKPKXFLPZIGXtUXejFGG6PTUiO4Yw/M5agoy/nyqaJLElVAMpg WJqwKbrkwRZwJtDEdCHZAyuJ8i9MA0Fu06x2DbmMaHkc+/DSjVIQcbP26v0o+yCm 7NPZjDzNQiZG9gQrzWmu7X9Lv9BKw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduvddrkedtgdehgecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqhhmtdhhtdejnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrkhcu pfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuffhomhgrihhnpe hmnhhothdrnhgvthenucfkphepfedurddufeefrddufeejrddvfeegnecurfgrrhgrmhep mhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivg eptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: from dhcp-89ea.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-89ea.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.137.234]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id D5875380079; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 08:59:38 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <14ed2e66-938e-9ffd-7ff4-ef632c95db14@nostrum.com> Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 08:59:36 -0400 Cc: Leif Johansson , art@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <78D647A0-9DDF-444E-8FC0-38395892F054@mnot.net> References: <58BF6171-03BB-4F83-940F-3A101EFDD67F@mnot.net> <2ba63f8c-0f61-bd59-fbca-9d782a0d9818@mnt.se> <42C8475A-6DFE-4DC6-B608-8159B90F9CDB@mnot.net> <55E6A246-4D77-44DA-AF2B-AA9C42FACC2F@mnt.se> <750cb62e-1256-4e3f-a072-438f6d468f2d@nostrum.com> <9847EF63-6BDE-4746-81C7-EA446FC5938E@mnt.se> <14ed2e66-938e-9ffd-7ff4-ef632c95db14@nostrum.com> To: Adam Roach X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] On BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 12:59:44 -0000 Indeed. > On 23 Jul 2019, at 11:38 pm, Adam Roach wrote: >=20 > On 7/23/19 18:25, Leif Johansson wrote: >>=20 >> Skickat fr=C3=A5n min iPhone >>=20 >>> 23 juli 2019 kl. 17:49 skrev Adam Roach : >>>=20 >>> Leif -- >>>=20 >>> It seems to me, watching this conversation, that you and Mark are = talking past each other. While I understand the points he is making, I'm = having a hard time following your line of logic given that BCP 190 does, = in fact, codify practices that have largely been applied to URI usage in = the past (albeit only in an ad-hoc fashion prior to its publication). = It's done a pretty reasonable job of keeping protocols from co-opting = parts of the URI space so far, and will ostensibly continue to do so = into the future. >>>=20 >> I read Mark saying that there are 1000s of APIs that get it wrong. = That made me ask if (and if so you you know) BCP190 is actually working. >=20 >=20 > Ah. I'm pretty sure -- and Mark can confirm -- that what he meant to = convey by that statement is that he's concerned about the impacts of = 1000s of APIs eroding the usable URI namespace in the future if we were = to abandon or substantially weaken the constraints outlined in BCP 190. >=20 > /a -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Wed Jul 24 06:08:30 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B69521200EC for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 06:08:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnt-se.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wSbk_g7q4xUp for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 06:08:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x833.google.com (mail-qt1-x833.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::833]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 256FE120148 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 06:08:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x833.google.com with SMTP id h21so45316505qtn.13 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 06:08:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnt-se.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=ls/ZzYs7syr2b8W7cb5iwJo5Ner/kkKm+ICFE5COAsk=; b=hjU4rlqcNAiIqtzOB1oLXx9qGokq/Xa8lPj6slmSkSZ/9sjx5TYTb1N3q8fc8YjIR8 pb3MiuSbuWQuM/V0QRoZM3H2of+l4dcNgNe4T0Q0a3siBbN5IzC7pO/EgrfajRzUYdjH nRfsjob3ByRnfMoGjDNDn5GQBVnpGaGTC3JAy6rmNx3jDWudu2cH5AflUAYdOTM03/KU eiAa6pjRNrCRMjhdvhZr8/Od2XXGpOPtK5e5Xrorms5+vfDtsSLVocC+yoEbJjI8a3kJ XB8WPMnLzH5c/Ji4dKv42m7iNeNbCjWNFMyG4UZp8eTb4lLpjCu8WFs1upm0Hvm9l/QL Doew== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=ls/ZzYs7syr2b8W7cb5iwJo5Ner/kkKm+ICFE5COAsk=; b=JWS+VhQSy8oUA1xWhxeYJ2X4SukMlt7lpfSRI/00V4x/hNuHI8D/suv+V/aR6ryNkE HMOvPQv+XVkhvMZCyLiFyPReP1hS0kpPE++iVe5CfyttK5Q8EQohOQx4WV8vbPTwX//d PTgnyH4YI3JA0sAfJQvp5WznL7m+wIhbUWEN3ySUlU/2e+Gvgty+FAHyGmGcbtZrbzHW Ii+5HFokz8E8nkVu9GhQjdHwChajuNBdu17uGYe5dljvBLPdfK5X/gM5fxo2AWhYzEFU XqWRJgvmkgJGLq8XUSQU3UNX+8K39r+i3Lkx3qKRfPe24B6pP5oNvdjc/zvQT1JcBY1q o9hg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX5uOWfJMmyFAcbK/WaU7pyjiZyf3WZ/quhWBnTlYBjQogAImbt EtoE4KdBPpJiQgFJAlWsAF/I124IpMo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzLjTfR7QhP2+h8J5D+goPyofj4o0ilqn8qgFOFmIYFBnrzPb1PcZn5UI37Hc/in+PTySof9w== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:29a4:: with SMTP id 33mr55867604qts.1.1563973704113; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 06:08:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:67c:1232:144:fd8e:d704:3776:993b? ([2001:67c:1232:144:fd8e:d704:3776:993b]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b7sm19909983qtt.38.2019.07.24.06.08.23 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 24 Jul 2019 06:08:23 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Leif Johansson X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16F203) In-Reply-To: <78D647A0-9DDF-444E-8FC0-38395892F054@mnot.net> Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:08:22 -0400 Cc: Adam Roach , art@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <99D64809-8010-4E4D-B60E-DC7DD12C0F3B@mnt.se> References: <58BF6171-03BB-4F83-940F-3A101EFDD67F@mnot.net> <2ba63f8c-0f61-bd59-fbca-9d782a0d9818@mnt.se> <42C8475A-6DFE-4DC6-B608-8159B90F9CDB@mnot.net> <55E6A246-4D77-44DA-AF2B-AA9C42FACC2F@mnt.se> <750cb62e-1256-4e3f-a072-438f6d468f2d@nostrum.com> <9847EF63-6BDE-4746-81C7-EA446FC5938E@mnt.se> <14ed2e66-938e-9ffd-7ff4-ef632c95db14@nostrum.com> <78D647A0-9DDF-444E-8FC0-38395892F054@mnot.net> To: Mark Nottingham Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] On BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 13:08:29 -0000 Hi Mark, I didn=E2=80=99t expect this to be this hard to parse.=20 I understand you are hoping BCP190 will have an effect in the future. My question is by what means would you measure or determine success? I ask b= ecause I (and clearly others on the list) see a pretty big impedance missmat= ch between reality and BCP190. Hope this helps to make what l=E2=80=99m asking for clearer. Cheers Leif Skickat fr=C3=A5n min iPhone > 24 juli 2019 kl. 08:59 skrev Mark Nottingham : >=20 > Indeed. >=20 >> On 23 Jul 2019, at 11:38 pm, Adam Roach wrote: >>=20 >> On 7/23/19 18:25, Leif Johansson wrote: >>>=20 >>> Skickat fr=C3=A5n min iPhone >>>=20 >>>> 23 juli 2019 kl. 17:49 skrev Adam Roach : >>>>=20 >>>> Leif -- >>>>=20 >>>> It seems to me, watching this conversation, that you and Mark are talki= ng past each other. While I understand the points he is making, I'm having a= hard time following your line of logic given that BCP 190 does, in fact, co= dify practices that have largely been applied to URI usage in the past (albe= it only in an ad-hoc fashion prior to its publication). It's done a pretty r= easonable job of keeping protocols from co-opting parts of the URI space so f= ar, and will ostensibly continue to do so into the future. >>>>=20 >>> I read Mark saying that there are 1000s of APIs that get it wrong. That m= ade me ask if (and if so you you know) BCP190 is actually working. >>=20 >>=20 >> Ah. I'm pretty sure -- and Mark can confirm -- that what he meant to conv= ey by that statement is that he's concerned about the impacts of 1000s of AP= Is eroding the usable URI namespace in the future if we were to abandon or s= ubstantially weaken the constraints outlined in BCP 190. >>=20 >> /a >=20 > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >=20 From nobody Wed Jul 24 06:15:31 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40AB91201D7 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 06:15:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=HRFgZQTN; 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Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:15:25 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <99D64809-8010-4E4D-B60E-DC7DD12C0F3B@mnt.se> Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:15:22 -0400 Cc: Adam Roach , art@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <649DC0E7-513E-4004-BB9D-C94D9DD29AE7@mnot.net> References: <58BF6171-03BB-4F83-940F-3A101EFDD67F@mnot.net> <2ba63f8c-0f61-bd59-fbca-9d782a0d9818@mnt.se> <42C8475A-6DFE-4DC6-B608-8159B90F9CDB@mnot.net> <55E6A246-4D77-44DA-AF2B-AA9C42FACC2F@mnt.se> <750cb62e-1256-4e3f-a072-438f6d468f2d@nostrum.com> <9847EF63-6BDE-4746-81C7-EA446FC5938E@mnt.se> <14ed2e66-938e-9ffd-7ff4-ef632c95db14@nostrum.com> <78D647A0-9DDF-444E-8FC0-38395892F054@mnot.net> <99D64809-8010-4E4D-B60E-DC7DD12C0F3B@mnt.se> To: Leif Johansson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] On BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 13:15:30 -0000 Do we usually set success criteria for BCPs? > On 24 Jul 2019, at 9:08 am, Leif Johansson wrote: >=20 >=20 > Hi Mark, >=20 > I didn=E2=80=99t expect this to be this hard to parse.=20 >=20 > I understand you are hoping BCP190 will have an effect in the future. >=20 > My question is by what means would you measure or determine success? I = ask because I (and clearly others on the list) see a pretty big = impedance missmatch between reality and BCP190. >=20 > Hope this helps to make what l=E2=80=99m asking for clearer. >=20 > Cheers Leif >=20 >=20 > Skickat fr=C3=A5n min iPhone >=20 >> 24 juli 2019 kl. 08:59 skrev Mark Nottingham : >>=20 >> Indeed. >>=20 >>> On 23 Jul 2019, at 11:38 pm, Adam Roach wrote: >>>=20 >>> On 7/23/19 18:25, Leif Johansson wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Skickat fr=C3=A5n min iPhone >>>>=20 >>>>> 23 juli 2019 kl. 17:49 skrev Adam Roach : >>>>>=20 >>>>> Leif -- >>>>>=20 >>>>> It seems to me, watching this conversation, that you and Mark are = talking past each other. While I understand the points he is making, I'm = having a hard time following your line of logic given that BCP 190 does, = in fact, codify practices that have largely been applied to URI usage in = the past (albeit only in an ad-hoc fashion prior to its publication). = It's done a pretty reasonable job of keeping protocols from co-opting = parts of the URI space so far, and will ostensibly continue to do so = into the future. >>>>>=20 >>>> I read Mark saying that there are 1000s of APIs that get it wrong. = That made me ask if (and if so you you know) BCP190 is actually working. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Ah. I'm pretty sure -- and Mark can confirm -- that what he meant to = convey by that statement is that he's concerned about the impacts of = 1000s of APIs eroding the usable URI namespace in the future if we were = to abandon or substantially weaken the constraints outlined in BCP 190. >>>=20 >>> /a >>=20 >> -- >> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >>=20 -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Wed Jul 24 06:19:56 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A2A21202DE for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 06:19:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <649DC0E7-513E-4004-BB9D-C94D9DD29AE7@mnot.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="NKPlfotFvrpIVwyoSvuA4tB68bMG0FCzq" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] On BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 13:19:54 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --NKPlfotFvrpIVwyoSvuA4tB68bMG0FCzq Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="jM592bcig1FuSTidp54sCZqIK2QmSPsZU"; protected-headers="v1" From: Melinda Shore To: art@ietf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [art] On BCP 190 References: <58BF6171-03BB-4F83-940F-3A101EFDD67F@mnot.net> <2ba63f8c-0f61-bd59-fbca-9d782a0d9818@mnt.se> <42C8475A-6DFE-4DC6-B608-8159B90F9CDB@mnot.net> <55E6A246-4D77-44DA-AF2B-AA9C42FACC2F@mnt.se> <750cb62e-1256-4e3f-a072-438f6d468f2d@nostrum.com> <9847EF63-6BDE-4746-81C7-EA446FC5938E@mnt.se> <14ed2e66-938e-9ffd-7ff4-ef632c95db14@nostrum.com> <78D647A0-9DDF-444E-8FC0-38395892F054@mnot.net> <99D64809-8010-4E4D-B60E-DC7DD12C0F3B@mnt.se> <649DC0E7-513E-4004-BB9D-C94D9DD29AE7@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <649DC0E7-513E-4004-BB9D-C94D9DD29AE7@mnot.net> --jM592bcig1FuSTidp54sCZqIK2QmSPsZU Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7/24/19 9:15 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > Do we usually set success criteria for BCPs? I've never seen any, but it seems that it might be helpful, given that the trans wg is saying that being required to make changes to conform to BCP 190 causes harm to the CT protocol, to have that requirement based on actual harm done by not conforming. Melinda --=20 Software longa, hardware brevis PGP key fingerprint 4F68 2D93 2A17 96F8 20F2 34C0 DFB8 9172 9A76 DB8F --jM592bcig1FuSTidp54sCZqIK2QmSPsZU-- --NKPlfotFvrpIVwyoSvuA4tB68bMG0FCzq Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEET2gtkyoXlvgg8jTA37iRcpp2248FAl04WvQACgkQ37iRcpp2 24+6qA//WMINZKQv69YjWBn3eRoUMjX90I0qKivqoHoEVoaUDxJRsrhLm0Qz0K99 mOwbOG9o8qj26l46c+p+yPeC5kCwVRyJiN8v4/3VNzzhuOU47sD6X8rAjq9rzo77 yENpMKR8l4Olt/nr9wZ0TD4vW4cXUHsLOfrTE5MVuaFgAJlBNzOZC0TqpRg7T1HI Og8LItXqCDqwWenqPF2afiarejNIPt+8hnGBtxv6LX26nhJXwH08Ndy3PLX/hWtk jg0O7GIeeG3pgbfummRFBG7mG7JhAIUN165xT/laLjzw5oE74FSGvhO6+W3ijgYv B2981ZPuAPb8uEvA6xLHv95HFOJdkom20np7+czPFggrLIrvdDm7avGLcHdCuynR yqIWTTkIT/OnotQqcytzOjUzif++s8CSUnyoCmFzaUt/crcVuLngYyomBqo5wgoa KMPuVN190hE00bURBFaHltsw/Hj45yA8M0ofX0Z/8Erv4j/dzbc5cZXogTIPCKrd iL2hRq0b6TdwUyZge08GWAQJ1T/d6FqeDckmBO7RY3W1O6lOzqAN9AL4av9QyBR8 KR/mS5UvbqbryxALgbxD4SgaEIO3/Mzjppo1ICzjIhcx9oxUjobgUDRPMOEudk/R L050VfpItq8SvLMwQ2QbQ4giFEP9QxJLOIv2pxohDH4jujXErwc= =fQS0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --NKPlfotFvrpIVwyoSvuA4tB68bMG0FCzq-- From nobody Wed Jul 24 06:25:36 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C3D61201F2 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 06:25:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnt-se.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jCHXATPchY_G for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 06:25:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x829.google.com (mail-qt1-x829.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::829]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3C3B11201E0 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 06:25:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x829.google.com with SMTP id d23so45465996qto.2 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 06:25:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnt-se.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=L/Q/UIDFQ2C6wLVNT5Tn0AMcWAV8uArGISsRMQh5wgo=; b=Jl7WY6hAebNmDS2sNyeb4PuNZk8Gh5hCoce15Vdv7NYtKk7NuP5b6TCEbJPGIeF86r fJuqqeGjBH5yk+cuN5CZweBp4CK0iDR65kGVAl8owcC/MmgzBWUMDMjKIzYJx+fta2ai VWS3veOkvxYU9B4fxDp8OyGGryN2ze7+m9Q4cMpCXNIQkfNbAElF7JzhAAGV+c2hHPSS nCK0suPAllodEYnV6MVgJQVs2HsShwPs/84EMBwVdBZmOCYjAcNPxLoIxsCojR4saseD fJSzTMahcf6BtMgDcd/9JiJXPmwXtxWmatzkvdu/pErXBu8dV2+Afb47EYmnut+Pd7sy wjKQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=L/Q/UIDFQ2C6wLVNT5Tn0AMcWAV8uArGISsRMQh5wgo=; b=UuqJW+5rfT1S+1l39UQ0Ygav452i1Z/QMxbnTgIVQ0P+cJE85NDDybZdCsr6leCdYk 2sZNFGSRrHCjadY0hNJE2jlN1V1QqlR3t6JOefVcBmrx4nbMd/3i/dFZ7NNxyUDDRvnO O+x3VzSlZGC54HDWdz012BpKtMEBlJ/mKt+tdAxLHdrLiD66q5e32AgmtfYDwOxr5LHJ NNRve0hdRFvC8v5hklwu/YIM80HZSpbpYSafJwntONDLykLojxLKnlHCW1a0WMySPvAw z00YYXNpf3i1+afq+jalpTGKSuDbRknWYzf7Zg+4K0JToXU/YiHeCBa9lv/DDPqOt7hr Ok0g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV/pgtOamU4dTeg6HsgLa2GqvIeQCtltIg2rv2ZTo9uAcWq5kHk nZ7cdV/7IIxJiH01Knz8kmg9Zo5TOZQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx+aWZpQrsiOPsUeOONXN5d+3rf1Da5MLpzCoAIE5pcv3JswdZGuwqKmYRkwbf4YYvzub3oDg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:1274:: with SMTP id r20mr56671692qvv.127.1563974731019; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 06:25:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:67c:1232:144:fd8e:d704:3776:993b? ([2001:67c:1232:144:fd8e:d704:3776:993b]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c5sm28807889qta.5.2019.07.24.06.25.30 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 24 Jul 2019 06:25:30 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Leif Johansson X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16F203) In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:25:30 -0400 Cc: art@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <58BF6171-03BB-4F83-940F-3A101EFDD67F@mnot.net> <2ba63f8c-0f61-bd59-fbca-9d782a0d9818@mnt.se> <42C8475A-6DFE-4DC6-B608-8159B90F9CDB@mnot.net> <55E6A246-4D77-44DA-AF2B-AA9C42FACC2F@mnt.se> <750cb62e-1256-4e3f-a072-438f6d468f2d@nostrum.com> <9847EF63-6BDE-4746-81C7-EA446FC5938E@mnt.se> <14ed2e66-938e-9ffd-7ff4-ef632c95db14@nostrum.com> <78D647A0-9DDF-444E-8FC0-38395892F054@mnot.net> <99D64809-8010-4E4D-B60E-DC7DD12C0F3B@mnt.se> <649DC0E7-513E-4004-BB9D-C94D9DD29AE7@mnot.net> To: Melinda Shore Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] On BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 13:25:34 -0000 Skickat fr=C3=A5n min iPhone > 24 juli 2019 kl. 09:19 skrev Melinda Shore := >=20 >> On 7/24/19 9:15 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> Do we usually set success criteria for BCPs? >=20 > I've never seen any, but it seems that it might be helpful, > given that the trans wg is saying that being required to > make changes to conform to BCP 190 causes harm to the CT > protocol, to have that requirement based on actual harm done > by not conforming. Bingo >=20 > Melinda >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Software longa, hardware brevis >=20 > PGP key fingerprint 4F68 2D93 2A17 96F8 20F2 > 34C0 DFB8 9172 9A76 DB8F >=20 > _______________________________________________ > art mailing list > art@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art From nobody Wed Jul 24 06:35:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B4651200E3 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 06:35:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=tvqo5x1x; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=IOhVsEq6 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KllixyKU858u for ; 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Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:35:36 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:35:32 -0400 Cc: art@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4B9A518C-6E90-444F-924E-4153AA0E27C7@mnot.net> References: <58BF6171-03BB-4F83-940F-3A101EFDD67F@mnot.net> <2ba63f8c-0f61-bd59-fbca-9d782a0d9818@mnt.se> <42C8475A-6DFE-4DC6-B608-8159B90F9CDB@mnot.net> <55E6A246-4D77-44DA-AF2B-AA9C42FACC2F@mnt.se> <750cb62e-1256-4e3f-a072-438f6d468f2d@nostrum.com> <9847EF63-6BDE-4746-81C7-EA446FC5938E@mnt.se> <14ed2e66-938e-9ffd-7ff4-ef632c95db14@nostrum.com> <78D647A0-9DDF-444E-8FC0-38395892F054@mnot.net> <99D64809-8010-4E4D-B60E-DC7DD12C0F3B@mnt.se> <649DC0E7-513E-4004-BB9D-C94D9DD29AE7@mnot.net> To: Melinda Shore X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] On BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 13:35:42 -0000 If any impediment to shipping a protocol is considered "harm", we've got = a problem.=20 > On 24 Jul 2019, at 9:19 am, Melinda Shore = wrote: >=20 > Signed PGP part > On 7/24/19 9:15 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> Do we usually set success criteria for BCPs? >=20 > I've never seen any, but it seems that it might be helpful, > given that the trans wg is saying that being required to > make changes to conform to BCP 190 causes harm to the CT > protocol, to have that requirement based on actual harm done > by not conforming. >=20 > Melinda >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Software longa, hardware brevis >=20 > PGP key fingerprint 4F68 2D93 2A17 96F8 20F2 > 34C0 DFB8 9172 9A76 DB8F >=20 >=20 >=20 -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Wed Jul 24 06:46:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B071120273 for ; 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Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4B9A518C-6E90-444F-924E-4153AA0E27C7@mnot.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="vBlQDglPUXctkVpQFduETai4jvP7SklzF" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] On BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 13:46:47 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --vBlQDglPUXctkVpQFduETai4jvP7SklzF Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="lqRsr6C2QuN67CRm2o1InVGkPF65DF0GK"; protected-headers="v1" From: Melinda Shore To: Mark Nottingham Cc: art@ietf.org Message-ID: <21f48b82-43b2-40c0-1590-075f05eaf4dc@nomountain.net> Subject: Re: [art] On BCP 190 References: <58BF6171-03BB-4F83-940F-3A101EFDD67F@mnot.net> <2ba63f8c-0f61-bd59-fbca-9d782a0d9818@mnt.se> <42C8475A-6DFE-4DC6-B608-8159B90F9CDB@mnot.net> <55E6A246-4D77-44DA-AF2B-AA9C42FACC2F@mnt.se> <750cb62e-1256-4e3f-a072-438f6d468f2d@nostrum.com> <9847EF63-6BDE-4746-81C7-EA446FC5938E@mnt.se> <14ed2e66-938e-9ffd-7ff4-ef632c95db14@nostrum.com> <78D647A0-9DDF-444E-8FC0-38395892F054@mnot.net> <99D64809-8010-4E4D-B60E-DC7DD12C0F3B@mnt.se> <649DC0E7-513E-4004-BB9D-C94D9DD29AE7@mnot.net> <4B9A518C-6E90-444F-924E-4153AA0E27C7@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <4B9A518C-6E90-444F-924E-4153AA0E27C7@mnot.net> --lqRsr6C2QuN67CRm2o1InVGkPF65DF0GK Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7/24/19 9:35 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > If any impediment to shipping a protocol is considered "harm", we've go= t a problem.=20 Well, if you take a look at the datatracker, you'll see that the authors have been working hard to develop text to clear other DISCUSSes. (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-trans-rfc6962-bis/ballot/). I'm not going to rehash Devon's talk here, but the pain associated with making protocol changes to support BCP 190 requirements is well beyond what we'd have expected, and it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that there'd be some justification for it based on experience. In a chat with Adam earlier today he said that there has, in fact, been squatting on namespace elements like robots.txt and favicon.ico. That's extremely helpful and the sort of thing that might support the case for requiring BCP 190. If we have (or have not) actually seen the same problem in application namespaces or on single-use servers, that would be be helpful to know, as well. Melinda --=20 Software longa, hardware brevis PGP key fingerprint 4F68 2D93 2A17 96F8 20F2 34C0 DFB8 9172 9A76 DB8F --lqRsr6C2QuN67CRm2o1InVGkPF65DF0GK-- --vBlQDglPUXctkVpQFduETai4jvP7SklzF Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEET2gtkyoXlvgg8jTA37iRcpp2248FAl04YT0ACgkQ37iRcpp2 24+9TA/9FZzwIBEBJCY138HG+TQr+tybvadJIYab3T2WAXFw2XD582wpgSFec1sV sm7sUY3aRBb4y4aDBqccDY45q/wyI2XWmeu/KSESZqUi/pqPi3P7SSu9LdHhF8rd mZ+HU4t+2DzZzRtYcnopVRHEtXURM0SmwppuKCx4kJRmWaUoTG3LtYA04YaB8idY Gjc+LvOKgogH5WX/ZfXXSBGEgOyw0udoYIO35nI6QUgwX+vkMWeM5YTcI4sIHGHq MEWkJw0WwxEcs/rUXZryEXUiYF0ilyJWP55JWA8OzoyQiV/67cgWgUgQTm6okPD2 8srBCYeDaO8W68fznzElQw3biajlNtdaeS8y14LCl764iIKE/MPNXIKp9n/PeOjt 3k7xe1r+p/O42nl4oLpC3b5fZBaM4CbwMdMe53QGQeFz6TSe0tRstahduz7K9EF8 VitfPVSz4gfGTl3MvieoZVQDHYuJv246jfwKShF0ssX05TtFw4ydebgjCzDvDvE0 e8y/Z3ivYvtLEaQp5XxxtRx9s3D5kks65roLUiGg3DE3IhXlSV6B4omUuENhBFE+ Y5h9R/IcchYivRwXRveHdkvsO+Tz7139xzqJb0hQzmMEKNnmBNwbB+t7woWfsVjQ VdB9F0r4TEAEvZahKxSQXi6tsuxpLs768ZGR6iYJfCzu9e41JWE= =LjNb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --vBlQDglPUXctkVpQFduETai4jvP7SklzF-- From nobody Wed Jul 24 07:04:19 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD54512029C; 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Wed, 24 Jul 2019 07:03:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a9d:30d1:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 07:03:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <30deb3a8-c24f-1f38-2701-aa1d68b6adba@nostrum.com> References: <791b33b8-4696-f69c-aca3-8838b2caafd8@sectigo.com> <77F8C1C2AAB5AE251285436F@172.20.2.211> <30deb3a8-c24f-1f38-2701-aa1d68b6adba@nostrum.com> From: Guntur Wiseno Putra Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 21:03:57 +0700 Message-ID: To: Adam Roach Cc: John C Klensin , "art@ietf.org" , "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c73fe0058e6dc790" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] [arch-d] BCP 190, draft-nottingham-for-the-users, and a generalization X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 14:04:13 -0000 --000000000000c73fe0058e6dc790 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear architecture-discuss, & John, To share what might be inspiring... In order to propose what should be understood as "concept", "percept" & "affect", thus as "philosophy" & "art", Deleuze & Guattari ("What is Philosophy?") mentioned architecture as the first art as art begins with house: that of which "the most scientific architecture continually produces and unifies planes and sections... it could be defined as "frame" with a connection among various frames oriented differently, applied to other arts...(There is) a composite system consisting of points and counterpoints... (there is) a matter of sensations (percepts and affects) combined... (While) the system still needs a composition plane run "deframing" opening ways from house territory to city-cosmos, the system in which there are cosmic forces to create new affects...". There is "asthetic composition" as the working of sensation which is, so they said, the definition of art... Regard, Guntur Wiseno Putra Pada Selasa, 23 Juli 2019, Adam Roach menulis: > John -- > > It's going to take a while for me to formulate my thoughts around what you > say below. To make sure I understand the class of constraints you're > concerned about below, can you clarify whether you think they apply to: > > - Documents like BCP 200, RFC 2804, and BCP 188? > - Documents like BCP 9 and BCP 92? > - Documents like BCP 25, BCP 54, and BCP 83? > > You might see an unstated agenda in the categories of documents I list > above, so I'll state it explicitly: in the general case, one person's > important protections against a tragedy of the commons is another person's > annoying impediment to be ignored and defeated. I get that not all of the > above read on protocol design; but they do share the common feature that > they've gone through the IETF consensus process (at least to the degree > that such a process existed at the time of their respective publications). > If we're going to carefully parse out the meanings of some of them as the > will of the community while treating others as light guidelines to be > ignored when they become cumbersome, we're going to need to agree on a > pretty bright line that divides those categories. > > /a > > On 7/23/19 08:37, John C Klensin wrote: > > (copying architecture-discuss because the comment I'm about to > make is an architectural issue and because > draft-nottingham-for-the-users is under discussion there.) > > > A late colleague, much loved by some of us, used to claim (much > more elegantly than I can manage) that one of the reasons the > ARPANET and then the Internet protocols had succeeded and much > of what was seen as competitive alternatives had not, was that > our efforts focused on pragmatic, working protocols and > implementations. > > The other folks had developed a culture of formalisms, models, > and stated design principles. They then tried to develop > protocols that fit into the boxes and categories of those > formalisms, models, and design principles. When they > discovered that something didn't fit, they needed to either > invent kludges or other ways of getting square pegs into round > holes, go back and revise models and guidance before moving > forward, or consider and make exceptions (which often required > first figuring out how to make an exception and developing > procedures for that). > > One difficulty is that the above can waste a lot of time. > Another is that it can distort protocol design, if only because > forcing square pegs into round holes tends to be hard on both > the pegs and the holes. > > In many or most fields of application, the nature of engineering > involves seeing and understanding a range of tradeoffs and then > doing design work that reflects a carefully-chosen balance among > them. Give design elegance absolute priority over structural > issues and buildings and bridges fall down. IMO, we need to > think, and keep thinking, about systems and tradeoffs. That, in > turn, means that statements like these that can be interpreted > in absolute terms, even if we mostly agree with them, should be > packaged as general guidelines and not BCPs to which everything > done in the future is required to either conform or to try to > figure out how to appeal to a higher authority. > > I'm not at all convinced that the proposal that was summarized > an ARTAREA yesterday and that is seen as requiring an exception > to BCP 190 is a good idea. But I think our time would be better > spent, and the Internet more efficiently made better, discussing > the strengths, weaknesses, and alternatives to that idea rather > than debating the reach and appropriateness of BCP 190 under > various circumstances. Long term and more generally, I think > that suggests seeing BCP 190 not as a particular set of > principles and rules but as an example of something we don't > want to do to ourselves again as a BCP (or as something that > gets enough of an IAB stamp of approval that people will later > argue MUST (or SHOULD) be conformed to. Again, restated as > general guidance with the assumption that there will be > exceptions and cases not considered, I don't have much of a > problem. If that shoe fits draft-nottingham-for-the-users, > so be it. > > john > > p.s. I don't mean to pick on Mark here. While these two > documents coming up at the same time was handy, I think the > problem is general and that there are far worse examples > (examples of which he is not an author) than either of them. > > _______________________________________________ > art mailing listart@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art > > > --000000000000c73fe0058e6dc790 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear architecture-discuss,
& John,

To = share what might be inspiring...

In order to propose= what should be understood as "concept", "percept" &= ; "affect", thus as "philosophy" & "art",= Deleuze & Guattari ("What is Philosophy?") mentioned archite= cture as the first art as art begins with house: that of which "the mo= st scientific architecture continually produces and unifies planes and sect= ions... it could be defined as "frame" with a connection among va= rious frames oriented differently, applied to other arts...(There is) a com= posite system consisting of points and counterpoints... (there is) a matter= of sensations (percepts and affects) combined... (While) the system still = needs a composition plane run "deframing" opening ways from house= territory to city-cosmos, the system in which there are cosmic forces to c= reate new affects...".

There is "astheti= c composition" as the working of sensation which is, so they said, the= definition of art...

Regard,
Guntur Wis= eno Putra

Pada Selasa, 23 Juli 2019, Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com> menulis:
=20 =20 =20
John --

It's going to take a while for me to formulate my thoughts around what you say below. To make sure I understand the class of constraints you're concerned about below, can you clarify whether you think they apply to:
  • Documents like BCP 200, RFC 2804, and BCP 188?
  • Documents like BCP 9 and BCP 92?
  • Documents like BCP 25, BCP 54, and BCP 83?

You might see an unstated agenda in the categories of documents I list above, so I'll state it explicitly: in the general case, one person's important protections against a tragedy of the commons is another person's annoying impediment to be ignored and defeated. I get that not all of the above read on protocol design; but they do share the common feature that they've gone through the IETF consensus process (at least to the degree that such a process existed at the time of their respective publications). If we're going to carefully parse out the meanings of some of them as the will of the community while treating others as light guidelines to be ignored when they become cumbersome, we're going to need to agree on a pretty bright line that divides those categories.

/a


On 7/23/19 08:37, John C Klensin wrote:
(copying architecture-discuss because the comment I'm about =
to
make is an architectural issue and because
draft-nottingham-for-the-users is under discussion there.)


A late colleague, much loved by some of us, used to claim (much
more elegantly than I can manage) that one of the reasons the
ARPANET and then the Internet protocols had succeeded and much
of what was seen as competitive alternatives had not, was that
our efforts focused on pragmatic, working protocols and
implementations. =20

The other folks had developed a culture of formalisms, models,
and stated design principles.  They then tried to develop
protocols that fit into the boxes and categories of those
formalisms, models, and design principles.    When they
discovered that something didn't fit, they needed to either
invent kludges or other ways of getting square pegs into round
holes, go back and revise models and guidance before moving
forward, or consider and make exceptions (which often required
first figuring out how to make an exception and developing
procedures for that).

One difficulty is that the above can waste a lot of time.
Another is that it can distort protocol design, if only because
forcing square pegs into round holes tends to be hard on both
the pegs and the holes.

In many or most fields of application, the nature of engineering
involves seeing and understanding a range of tradeoffs and then
doing design work that reflects a carefully-chosen balance among
them.  Give design elegance absolute priority over structural
issues and buildings and bridges fall down.  IMO, we need to
think, and keep thinking, about systems and tradeoffs.  That, in
turn, means that statements like these that can be interpreted
in absolute terms, even if we mostly agree with them, should be
packaged as general guidelines and not BCPs to which everything
done in the future is required to either conform or to try to
figure out how to appeal to a higher authority.

I'm not at all convinced that the proposal that was summarized
an ARTAREA yesterday and that is seen as requiring an exception
to BCP 190 is a good idea.  But I think our time would be better
spent, and the Internet more efficiently made better, discussing
the strengths, weaknesses, and alternatives to that idea rather
than debating the reach and appropriateness of BCP 190 under
various circumstances.   Long term and more generally, I think
that suggests seeing BCP 190 not as a particular set of
principles and rules but as an example of something we don't
want to do to ourselves again as a BCP (or as something that
gets enough of an IAB stamp of approval that people will later
argue MUST (or SHOULD) be conformed to.  Again, restated as
general guidance with the assumption that there will be
exceptions and cases not considered, I don't have much of a
problem.    If that shoe fits  draft-nottingham-for-the-users,
so be it.

   john

p.s. I don't mean to pick on Mark here.   While these two
documents coming up at the same time was handy, I think the
problem is general and that there are far worse examples
(examples of which he is not an author) than either of them.

_______________________________________________
art mailing list
art@ietf.org
htt=
ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art


--000000000000c73fe0058e6dc790-- From nobody Wed Jul 24 07:22:48 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A09C212030F for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 07:22:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YtqfTGh5PHbd for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 07:22:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sdaoden.eu (sdaoden.eu [217.144.132.164]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 429E2120123 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 07:22:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sdaoden.eu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 8CE2816054; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 16:22:34 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 16:22:32 +0200 From: Steffen Nurpmeso To: Marten Gajda Cc: "art@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20190724142232.oOgpX%steffen@sdaoden.eu> In-Reply-To: References: <1b042605-4b3a-40b7-a792-2390c924282f@www.fastmail.com> <20190719133320.aPmih%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Mail-Followup-To: Marten Gajda , "art@ietf.org" User-Agent: s-nail v14.9.13-136-g5ea28bbf OpenPGP: id=EE19E1C1F2F7054F8D3954D8308964B51883A0DD; url=https://ftp.sdaoden.eu/steffen.asc; preference=signencrypt BlahBlahBlah: Any stupid boy can crush a beetle. But all the professors in the world can make no bugs. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 14:22:46 -0000 Hello. Please excuse the late reply, i try to get any quantum of clowd free summer i can, not that much this year.. Marten Gajda wrote in : |Am 19.07.19 um 15:33 schrieb Steffen Nurpmeso: |> Marten Gajda wrote in : |>|As a client developer, I want to provide a smooth UX to our users. \ |>|This means I need much more information than just a server URL. |> |> You want to present them a barcode that they can scan with their |> smart phone and which is made available via some local registry to |> any interested application (via some kind of IPC, say DBUS), then. |Sure, but that provisioning part, which also contains user specific data |(e.g. account name or maybe even credentials), should be a separate |standard. Also, you don't want to share account data with "any |interested application". I'd prefer if the setup component checks the |system (and optionally the app store or software repository) for |applications which can handle the protocols in the service configuration |document and asks the user for which ones to provision with the |configuration and access tokens |>|For instance, I also want to=20 |>|* present the name or logo of the provider which hosts the user's \ |>|account, \ |>|ideally before they enter their credentials, |> |> You made a contract with a provider, and it has given you |> credentials to use. The provider has an IP address, and you have |> submissions, pop3s and imaps access. On the web site's welcome page |> the services URLs were noted. (Let's say imap.XY.Z.) |So? The idea behind an auto-configuration or service-discovery is to |avoid having to type any URLs into client applications. Also I'd expect |the client to rerun the discovery every now and then (for instance when |the cache expired) and pick up configuration changes (like newly |supported services). The barcode was a little irony; You seem to have in mind a totally free world where you move in between say wireless networks and you get automatically configured access wherever you are. I hope i get informed and have to "ok" who debits my money, and please let me wonder how this should work for anything but plain transport providers? |>|* provide links to support channels, reset password pages, account \ |>|management, |> |> Ha! If it were that easy to find these pages on the web site of |> your provider!! Shiny happy people there will be, i bet. | |I'm not sure how to understand this statement. If you suggest that some |service providers deliberately "hide" password reset and settings pages |to present more ads to the user and they wouldn't be interested in |providing these shortcuts, you may be right. But many providers still |value usability and user experience, not to mention all the other |non-freemail providers and use cases (like corporate services). Maybe |you just have the wrong provider. | |If that's not what you suggest, please be more specific. I was talking about user interfaces. Take the city M=C3=BCnchen who moved from Linux back to another vendor, just like Wien did many years before that. All voices i have heard were not talking about technical problems. |>|* know the OAuth endpoints, if available, ... |> I personally have problems with OAuth. Not because of the ... |You're off-topic. Anyway, you're welcome to propose a new standard and |I'd be happy to implement it once its ratified. For now OAuth2 is one of ... There are more than enough in my opinion. I am a supporter of the strict separation of transport and protocol. That is easy for me, i came to the Unix world in 1999 and C in 2000, and by then securing the transport was already a thing. I am also a supporter of moving authentication to the transport's security setup as such. This of course already happens, and i think as long as i can password protect all the contents of client certificates this is ok. Maybe that could be further diversified (several passwords for different data; but of course why not using multiple certificates). Or a simple login- or plain text authentication thereafter.=20 |the better options we have in terms of privacy and security. In general, |a service configuration protocol certainly should be agnostic to how |authentication is performed by the services. However, if the |authentication method requires the knowledge of certain endpoints they |should be provided in that document. I fail to see the need for moving away to something new. I mean, if something lacks, you need a new resource record type, i do not know whether there is one for corporate logos yet. And if that is not flexible enough because you want to have IMAP server A serving names from a-n and B the rest, and SRV does not do that for you, then maybe two RFCs should be joined and a SRVT record should be introduced as an indirection, and SRVT should contain an URI template which a client application can use to get to the real SRV that applies to it. So that is my thought: why move away from all the established mechanisms and invent something completely new, when all that is needed to overcome the missing flexibility is that? How can a JSON file be better than that? Or is it dynamically created when a user authenticates via client certificate, with content exactly as desired for that user? You surely do not want to place a potentially infinitely sized file with contents for all the users, so -- what could a JSON file under .well-known do better than a SRVT with an URI template? |>|* know which endpoints serve the same data via different protocols, |>|* know *all* the available services (not just the ones I know about), \ |>|so I can suggest other clients which may be useful. ... |> This points us back to the first paragraph. Or the second. |> What is wrong with having the corresponding (A,AAAA,MX,SRV etc.) |> DNS entries for state1.company.xy and state2.company.xy? |> Add some more for logos (if not yet existing) or whatever. | |For starters, not all Frameworks allow you to resolve anything but |A(AAA) records. On Java (and Android for that matter) it's not so |trivial to lookup MX or SRV records or even the current DNS server That is definetely a problem for those frameworks, no? I have no idea of those, i left JAVA in Y2K, but i still have my JAVA Programmierhandbuch by Middendorf/Singer around. |address. A simple GET request to a well-known address, on the other |hand, is barely an issue. There may be use cases in which it may not be Is it still that easy with HTTP/2? |possible or reasonable to set up a webserver just to provide that |document, for instance when a service only provides email. In these |cases we could offer a fallback mechanism which allows a client to |retrieve the document from another location, for instance by providing |an SRV record which points to the location of the service configuration |document. Other fallbacks may be possible as well, but .well-known would |definitely preferred. I see this differently, and i tell you why. I think it deserts the infrastructure. You have a thing here, and a thing there, and all those parts move on individually and need to be tracked, and of course administred, too. For example, email. From the three protocols SMTP, IMAP and POP3 the last one is deserted, no one ever cared that it requires a really stable internet connection because if you loose connection after doing twenty things the server will have forgotten you did so. And DKIM, DMARC and AUTOCRYPT were introduced happily, massively increasing the size of message headers, not updating POP3 to have a "body-only" command (even though it seems trivial to add the counterpart to the "TOP" command that anyway exists). So i am post-office, look at the summary of old headers, and decide that some of them are important even after hours, the others not, what am i left with. Granted that a more holistic point of view is very hard, especially if so many parties are involved. But here it seems more about overall interest, this is at least my impression. |> There is also that WWW paradigm of having a favicon.ico in the |> root of your web presence, it will be fetched up automatically by |> browsers, why can't you? | |That's exactly what I'm proposing, allowing clients to get the |configuration for all services offered by a provider with a single GET |request to a well-known address (e.g. `/.well-known/services`). |Imagine the favicon.ico location would have to be retrieved by looking |up the "favicon" SRV record. Well, yes and no. That was very early, i think i already had a favicon in 1996? So to me this is web/HTTP since ever. It would have been better to have a ' You need to have A/AAAA for the web presence in the DNS, why can't |> you have MX / SRV for the other non-HTTPS services, too? | |What's your point? You also need A/AAAA records for the non-HTTPS |services? You're comparing Apples and Oranges. I actually do not understand this. |DNS is not suitable to provide that kind of structured information. One |of the reasons is that you only get information that you've explicitly |asked for, so you'd have to request every single bit of information that |you can use, without even knowing whether it exists. You ask for auto-configuration, do you? What shall be in that JSON file you proclaim? If it is more than something that fits in a RR then what? You need a naming scheme, an iterator, ... ? |> You want personalization on a per-user level, and you do not |> control your DNS zone, and you do not want to spend a little bit |> of money to get your own little DNS zone? You would spawn a DNS |> server on your box to overcome this, but getaddrinfo(3) does not |> allow specifying which DNS server is to be asked? Aha! Yes, that |> is a problem. You want to furtherly enforce decentralisation by |> moving responsibility away from the controlled and otherwise |> constrained DNS to anyway running "private" HTTP servers. (A |> company could still have a VPN to overcome this, me thinks.) |> |> If it is because DNS is controlled and constrained then following |> the pigeon RFC there should possibly be an albatross RFC. So that |> slow people like me understand the issue, finally. There is |> mischief! There is mischief! I see more robots passing by that |> collect all the information stored in .well-known. | |That's one more point for .well-known, if you ask me. Unless you have |your own private DNS server, all the SRV records are publicly available. |A service configuration document under .well-known can easily be |protected with authentication. IMO you should be able to retrieve a |redacted version of the document without authentication which just gives |enough information to know who you're talking to and how to authenticate |to get more info (e.g. by providing OAuth2 endpoints). There is no need |to disclose more information to unauthenticated users than you'd |disclose by setting up SRV records. Again, what should be in this JSON you want to serve? Is it personalized data then you need to have authenticated yourself already -- for this you need to have an account? If it is not personalized data then what is missing from SRV RRs ... that cannot be provided by indirecting via some URI template pattern from a hypothetic SRVT? What is better, something completely shiny new, like a nice little JSON document under a new .well-known URL, or a mechanism that has seen iterations and evolved to something that addresses problems discovered after having former iterations in use. (I know the former is the answer, of course, as in rewrite in C++, from plain text to XML, rewrite in rust, move from XML to JSON, etc.) |Hosting your own DNS zone comes at a price as you've just noted above. |You'll have higher efforts to maintain the server and you'll have to |make sure your client application uses the correct DNS server. So you'll |most likely have to enter it manually somewhere. This sort of defeats |the purpose of an automated service configuration. | |In many cases a simple service configuration document can be hosted |statically. In other cases your server software (e.g. your Groupware) |could handle that for you. Maintaining DNS is not so easy and while TLS |encryption is almost trivial to set up these days (e.g. using |letsencrypt), DNSSEC is not that common yet |(https://stats.labs.apnic.net/dnssec). Oh, i am totally opposed to DNSSEC. I would go for TLS/DTLS, and i do not understand why the data cannot be signed with some TLS certificate that can simply be looked up by doing a say HTTPS connect to the zone's main address. |> I see people |> getting bombed because of information stored under .well-known, |> for nothing, who could they ask instead of a lawyer in that case? |Again, you can protect sensitive, non-public information with |authentication when using a .well-known resource. In addition a simple |document wouldn't have to contain much more information than you're |proposing to publish via DNS to the world. Yes. Exactly. And i really wonder what should be the content of that non-public version, and how it can be accessed, and even more, interpreted. |>|The attached example shows how a document might look like as per the \ |>|current status. |> |> The draft[1] contains examples. |> |> [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-webfinger-email-autoconfi= g-\ |> 00 | |Yes, but my example doesn't use WebFinger and addresses a few other |issues. Have you actually seen it? I had seen it by then, yes. --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) From nobody Wed Jul 24 09:15:15 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12CE212024D for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:15:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.68 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.68 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dOflhty35g2u for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:15:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3DA86120043 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:15:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Orochi.local ([196.52.21.210]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id x6OGF6d9039980 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 24 Jul 2019 11:15:08 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1563984909; bh=Z7/gMlcc/k9EmI5FwgjGcLFUo2KumF90UAeY/e1KBrc=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=GF9dlnjkJFnC+qy/jLYAvip5r6HNVZtlBr54aalirk0Mb388IS1j7+h4/h0ZOyLG0 BS40cjZyJTAeZH1oMfpr4eAEHJNpxJrhkk1vVyEdYhZzTMTi/jfliv+TXOm6BkldNS ni3RhD114kWIGDvs3m4DDD6i0vreT7DxoHlkOZ+M= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [196.52.21.210] claimed to be Orochi.local To: Melinda Shore , Mark Nottingham Cc: art@ietf.org References: <58BF6171-03BB-4F83-940F-3A101EFDD67F@mnot.net> <2ba63f8c-0f61-bd59-fbca-9d782a0d9818@mnt.se> <42C8475A-6DFE-4DC6-B608-8159B90F9CDB@mnot.net> <55E6A246-4D77-44DA-AF2B-AA9C42FACC2F@mnt.se> <750cb62e-1256-4e3f-a072-438f6d468f2d@nostrum.com> <9847EF63-6BDE-4746-81C7-EA446FC5938E@mnt.se> <14ed2e66-938e-9ffd-7ff4-ef632c95db14@nostrum.com> <78D647A0-9DDF-444E-8FC0-38395892F054@mnot.net> <99D64809-8010-4E4D-B60E-DC7DD12C0F3B@mnt.se> <649DC0E7-513E-4004-BB9D-C94D9DD29AE7@mnot.net> <4B9A518C-6E90-444F-924E-4153AA0E27C7@mnot.net> <21f48b82-43b2-40c0-1590-075f05eaf4dc@nomountain.net> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <5415fb69-b63c-ec92-5d66-8af730ff6959@nostrum.com> Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 12:15:06 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <21f48b82-43b2-40c0-1590-075f05eaf4dc@nomountain.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [art] Is CT single-use origins or not? (Re: On BCP 190) X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 16:15:12 -0000 On 7/24/19 09:46, Melinda Shore wrote: > In a chat with Adam earlier today he said that there has, in fact, > been squatting on namespace elements like robots.txt and favicon.ico. > That's extremely helpful and the sort of thing that might support > the case for requiring BCP 190. If we have (or have not) actually seen > the same problem in application namespaces or on single-use servers, > that would be be helpful to know, as well. While I think we need to have a broader conversation on BCP 190 that covers this in depth, there is one critically important bit of information that has not been made clear about the way that CT is being deployed, and I don't think there is any hope of quickly processing the CT document until it is clearly answered:     Is the mechanism defined in the "Certificate Transparency     Version 2.0" document constrained to run on an origin on     which no other services are present? The answer to this question *radically* effects the conversation we need to be having to get the document published as quickly as possible. We can try to finish the wide-ranging conversation about BCP 190 in general without an answer to this question, but unless we want to block the TRANS document while we wait for that to happen, we're going to need to understand this fundamental property as soon as possible. /a From nobody Wed Jul 24 09:40:51 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42134120621 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:40:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=letsencrypt.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HTigRIzCizj3 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:40:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x72f.google.com (mail-qk1-x72f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E3CD012062E for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:40:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x72f.google.com with SMTP id s22so34251504qkj.12 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:40:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=letsencrypt.org; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=FLzbXcghEoSaPUtwRtvihNjcH78Nt4Nu8SYixXrr3gE=; b=Ory7SVCl+11APElP3pMue7sWL34V1kTCuBy0caEL/eQBgCzd4iVA3gKA2fVrSBisjq tnOabRJad9heXxbUkU0jhm5La6EKUN1MRM1XsJ56nsz4tVg/lP4xZwBLKcsfVEdbzxVL rr2fErduegB0J44Og1dpfdkQ56J8F/KPCVu8w= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=FLzbXcghEoSaPUtwRtvihNjcH78Nt4Nu8SYixXrr3gE=; b=Rz7vZ26+DWTnga8r8gDdXyDTHryh5C2Xt2X0ybkxGSfwg7oW/ESRJo2nbq7IsgQLHQ aPPjV0va3fmcdluiEN4hC79wLhvSIf4WQrORXzdlWw1LSbENX9HAbYe9EDB/GgegXVF9 yDIA3ABt0Q64bx4Jp++dJEgNtgqLNWPKceLW/nCKvGhcM/WnmfJ3RXFaoVxDQSSbLDUF ZOyjpeIwAh8gyKZAR9Mjt4EQsW8s1vokaUcFBT7Gvoougf+noG9r2l2KEz0WKfqr6eua qlY/TUgidXrv43lVeVfmG3Vn+qvPACdVg/Th7t2TRP+79rxSR6PzOQ23O1z5fyG2sd2U gOoQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV3FTYRJteD7jDIBH0D976aP9VJbJlfVwQNZJ6jLbG91Xd4ZtnY yMFnBBuaPUNyxDk6Q0nAa/qw6tyZeRklG4yQvOqU7DBwTaU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxY7Yfz6hG59CR4YLin9tm4VZ9RaLQ/+gkJCdCTIwsbaK+pwBbKJATUJHvKMitVnoPl+V+8+2igUy0CoHDdf9Y= X-Received: by 2002:ae9:f801:: with SMTP id x1mr49551956qkh.242.1563986439128; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:40:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <58BF6171-03BB-4F83-940F-3A101EFDD67F@mnot.net> <2ba63f8c-0f61-bd59-fbca-9d782a0d9818@mnt.se> <42C8475A-6DFE-4DC6-B608-8159B90F9CDB@mnot.net> <55E6A246-4D77-44DA-AF2B-AA9C42FACC2F@mnt.se> <750cb62e-1256-4e3f-a072-438f6d468f2d@nostrum.com> <9847EF63-6BDE-4746-81C7-EA446FC5938E@mnt.se> <14ed2e66-938e-9ffd-7ff4-ef632c95db14@nostrum.com> <78D647A0-9DDF-444E-8FC0-38395892F054@mnot.net> <99D64809-8010-4E4D-B60E-DC7DD12C0F3B@mnt.se> <649DC0E7-513E-4004-BB9D-C94D9DD29AE7@mnot.net> <4B9A518C-6E90-444F-924E-4153AA0E27C7@mnot.net> <21f48b82-43b2-40c0-1590-075f05eaf4dc@nomountain.net> <5415fb69-b63c-ec92-5d66-8af730ff6959@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <5415fb69-b63c-ec92-5d66-8af730ff6959@nostrum.com> From: Jacob Hoffman-Andrews Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:40:13 -0700 Message-ID: To: Adam Roach Cc: Melinda Shore , Mark Nottingham , art@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000235db6058e6ff8f6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Is CT single-use origins or not? (Re: On BCP 190) X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 16:40:50 -0000 --000000000000235db6058e6ff8f6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Jul 24, 2019 at 9:15 AM Adam Roach wrote: > Is the mechanism defined in the "Certificate Transparency > Version 2.0" document constrained to run on an origin on > which no other services are present? > No, definitely not. In practice, that's how people have tended to deploy it, mainly because origins are cheap, and CT's high availability requirements mean you don't want your website maintenance events to cause downtime for your CT log. However, it's worth reiterating that CT logs are specified by origin + path prefix, and most CT logs coexist on a single origin with multiple other logs, distinguished by path prefix. --000000000000235db6058e6ff8f6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Jul 24, 2019 at 9:15 AM Adam Roac= h <adam@nostrum.com> wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Is the mechanism defined in the "Certif= icate Transparency
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Version 2.0" document constrained to run on an ori= gin on
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 which no other services are present?

No, definitely not. In practice, that's how people ha= ve tended to deploy it, mainly because origins are cheap, and CT's high= availability requirements mean you don't want your website maintenance= events to cause downtime for your CT log.

However= , it's worth reiterating that CT logs are specified by origin=C2=A0+ pa= th prefix, and most CT logs coexist on a single origin with multiple other = logs, distinguished by path prefix.
--000000000000235db6058e6ff8f6-- From nobody Wed Jul 24 09:52:19 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9633120112 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:52:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=letsencrypt.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XD9zJFpfmdYo for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:52:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x732.google.com (mail-qk1-x732.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::732]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 98AF212015B for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:52:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x732.google.com with SMTP id a27so34271616qkk.5 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:52:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=letsencrypt.org; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=6yFpCSI3L6C6h6sMaGsLS3HaCuuhbkl+T6/JdP9ll1Q=; b=Z63XLLfUNIfF2rYb1tqNiYHXV/0vd1Lehcnjj9FUNkodUmK4u5p8zhQWIoitnp2xbc tx2162FwZIxeYFK+0y72DGH0GR5TgeOTGv3F+DXHKmQk2Sw+vEG6/Pia66gu3pS4eMd+ rPGRhYzdyfJWin2WsYQ2b1n4lpegnWePbsfco= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=6yFpCSI3L6C6h6sMaGsLS3HaCuuhbkl+T6/JdP9ll1Q=; b=ZMR9tRZXrKB1tIOi2iP/Owg0bP6AqouXaBZtQoKefcRJeQ471pZpgUbTWH+I02QwTW lo9pRIctxmnvHu/KuWMGmsNy1aLyn5RgaUD4FIhKNNeNbwVT9owYwO0M59xE7eXaMu5G YNgTWX1iIm/x7S3PxojTqldB4e29+gU1k+zIO9Qs9GVxDnOCNOWZqH5KpyT3isuz2v+O yD3JRcyu65SCir6AL7i2kzxzR6VxKd3iZnKohqxQoNZwl/gSdKJJhTmGCTBK943SAyei a2D/BbriIYPQ2rKcYt9Ff1EL37wbFcDlJCaO0GNmC1ywnThm7COjR0FYQer+5bNJum4+ Z0wA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWurciGizVneW1QtEDZlw4Gvuej7u8k4FX1PWvEJ7HWCaBPwT4q z59rJwYW84tjysRBZzprB3QSbH3j5PkRAuOsxJ5wIw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzi/obEf9Hnxh+F5aXAHFQMW2k101cRAl8YOTWk//lPlkwJNevu2aY982gHsUUwjVqqrzJCH0BrXgSIe5UiXtk= X-Received: by 2002:ae9:f010:: with SMTP id l16mr54204122qkg.292.1563987131702; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:52:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <58BF6171-03BB-4F83-940F-3A101EFDD67F@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <58BF6171-03BB-4F83-940F-3A101EFDD67F@mnot.net> From: Jacob Hoffman-Andrews Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:51:45 -0700 Message-ID: To: Mark Nottingham Cc: ART Area , "Devon O'Brien" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006b32a1058e7021a4" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] On BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 16:52:17 -0000 --0000000000006b32a1058e7021a4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I'd like to reiterate that CT does not squat on namespace elements, like favicon or robots.txt. CT logs are specified by origin *and path prefix*: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-trans-rfc6962-bis-31.txt > The prefix, which is one of the log's parameters, MAY > include a path as well as a server name and a port. So CT is totally fine with regards to this part of BCP 190 Section 2.3 : > For example, an application ought not specify a fixed URI path > "/myapp", since this usurps the host's control of that space. It's this part of BCP 190 Section 2.3 that is causing the issue: > Specifying a fixed path relative to another (e.g., {whatever}/myapp) > is also bad practice (even if "whatever" is discovered as suggested > in Section 3); while doing so might prevent collisions, it does not > avoid the potential for operational difficulties (for example, an > implementation that prefers to use query processing instead, because > of implementation constraints). To be clear, the "whatever" in this case is referred to as in CT, and is discovered via the known logs list ( https://www.certificate-transparency.org/known-logs) and browser CT programs. On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 11:14 AM Mark Nottingham wrote: > common practices for an API that's implemented once and deployed on one > server that's under the control of the designer (e.g., api.twitter.com) > are often not appropriate for an API that is implemented many times, > deployed on many servers owned by different people, and sometimes evolved > independently > This is a valuable and subtle point, and I think the crux of the matter. It's actually surprisingly rare to see an HTTP API that is designed to be implemented many times. But if you look at those that are (RFC 7482, RFC 7808, RFC 8040, Mastodon, and Git, for example), what they have in common is that they are all organized around a hostname and path prefix, just like CT. --0000000000006b32a1058e7021a4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'd like to reiterate that CT does not squat on n= amespace elements, like favicon or robots.txt. CT logs are specified by ori= gin *and path prefix*:

>=C2=A0 = =C2=A0The <log server> prefix, which is one of the log's paramete= rs, MAY
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0include a path as well as a server name and a= port.

So CT is totally fine with regards to= this part of BC= P 190 Section 2.3:

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 For example, an appl= ication ought not specify a fixed URI path
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0"/mya= pp", since this usurps the host's control of that space.

<= /div>
It's this part of BCP 190 Section 2.3 that is causing the iss= ue:

>=C2=A0 Specifying a fixed path relative to= another (e.g., {whatever}/myapp)
>=C2=A0 is also bad practice (even = if "whatever" is discovered as suggested
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0in S= ection 3); while doing so might prevent collisions, it does not
>=C2= =A0 =C2=A0avoid the potential for operational difficulties (for example, an=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0implementation that prefers to use query processing in= stead, because
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0of implementation constraints).

To be clear, the "whatever" in this case is refe= rred to as <log server> in CT, and is discovered via the known logs l= ist (https:= //www.certificate-transparency.org/known-logs) and browser CT programs.=

On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 11:14 AM Mark Notti= ngham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:
=
common practices for an API that's implemented once and deploye= d on one server that's under the control of the designer (e.g., api.twitte= r.com) are often not appropriate for an API that is implemented many ti= mes, deployed on many servers owned by different people, and sometimes evol= ved independently

This is a valuable and subtle po= int, and I think the crux of the matter. It's actually surprisingly rar= e to see an HTTP API that is designed to be implemented many times. But if = you look at those that are (RFC 7482, RFC 7808, RFC 8040, Mastodon, and Git= , for example), what they have in common is that they are all organized aro= und a hostname and path prefix, just like CT.
--0000000000006b32a1058e7021a4-- From nobody Wed Jul 24 09:58:57 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5B9B12015B for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:58:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.678 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.678 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7bAQRl5ML32Q for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:58:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A27F6120059 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:58:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Orochi.local ([196.52.21.213]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id x6OGwo1t047161 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 24 Jul 2019 11:58:52 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1563987533; bh=8NVxF5ku2vERcXBnMqoPzAO49ooyIRqerJh11NSZB0k=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=RV8I3oN6HcpFY46hmNfR7F+TF4K/gXrf1CGJEyir3lAgGw4B6zc+LNq3FNxIq2GW0 Q0XI8zCIGSx6IbkjlD+P7Jdz8vey3B4v5e+OyLYv594lRt/KlzKDAI9Wz4XFGEf2Xt SU1W5EdUsBFpMUoNk0IZyDuf7SM37a8EnwQoLcho= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [196.52.21.213] claimed to be Orochi.local To: Jacob Hoffman-Andrews Cc: Melinda Shore , Mark Nottingham , art@ietf.org References: <58BF6171-03BB-4F83-940F-3A101EFDD67F@mnot.net> <2ba63f8c-0f61-bd59-fbca-9d782a0d9818@mnt.se> <42C8475A-6DFE-4DC6-B608-8159B90F9CDB@mnot.net> <55E6A246-4D77-44DA-AF2B-AA9C42FACC2F@mnt.se> <750cb62e-1256-4e3f-a072-438f6d468f2d@nostrum.com> <9847EF63-6BDE-4746-81C7-EA446FC5938E@mnt.se> <14ed2e66-938e-9ffd-7ff4-ef632c95db14@nostrum.com> <78D647A0-9DDF-444E-8FC0-38395892F054@mnot.net> <99D64809-8010-4E4D-B60E-DC7DD12C0F3B@mnt.se> <649DC0E7-513E-4004-BB9D-C94D9DD29AE7@mnot.net> <4B9A518C-6E90-444F-924E-4153AA0E27C7@mnot.net> <21f48b82-43b2-40c0-1590-075f05eaf4dc@nomountain.net> <5415fb69-b63c-ec92-5d66-8af730ff6959@nostrum.com> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <58da5d86-67f9-3b51-d30e-0f3f6c1fbf3c@nostrum.com> Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 12:58:40 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------327266DD3DA5353C4350F759" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Is CT single-use origins or not? (Re: On BCP 190) X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 16:58:56 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------327266DD3DA5353C4350F759 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/24/19 12:40, Jacob Hoffman-Andrews wrote: > On Wed, Jul 24, 2019 at 9:15 AM Adam Roach > wrote: > >    Is the mechanism defined in the "Certificate Transparency >      Version 2.0" document constrained to run on an origin on >      which no other services are present? > > > No, definitely not. In practice, that's how people have tended to > deploy it, mainly because origins are cheap, and CT's high > availability requirements mean you don't want your website maintenance > events to cause downtime for your CT log. Thanks for the clear answer. Given this information, I would to ask that we *not* focus on the question of whether single-use origins can reasonably have more lax restrictions than other origins, at least until we figure out the question of how to handle the CT document. To be clear: I'd like the ART community to discuss this topic at some point, but I don't want to hold up the CT document on its conclusion. This is a request to *defer* the conversation, not a request to abandon it. /a --------------327266DD3DA5353C4350F759 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 7/24/19 12:40, Jacob Hoffman-Andrews wrote:
On Wed, Jul 24, 2019 at 9:15 AM Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com> wrote:
     Is the mechanism defined in the "Certificate Transparency
     Version 2.0" document constrained to run on an origin on
     which no other services are present?

No, definitely not. In practice, that's how people have tended to deploy it, mainly because origins are cheap, and CT's high availability requirements mean you don't want your website maintenance events to cause downtime for your CT log.


Thanks for the clear answer.

Given this information, I would to ask that we *not* focus on the question of whether single-use origins can reasonably have more lax restrictions than other origins, at least until we figure out the question of how to handle the CT document.

To be clear: I'd like the ART community to discuss this topic at some point, but I don't want to hold up the CT document on its conclusion. This is a request to *defer* the conversation, not a request to abandon it.

/a

--------------327266DD3DA5353C4350F759-- From nobody Wed Jul 24 10:24:59 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4B1612028E for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 10:24:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=XjXGWuDq; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=PVn30HX7 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ijvbi1x_5qNW for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 10:24:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 87BD3120112 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 10:24:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id D527D2EB; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 13:24:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 24 Jul 2019 13:24:55 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm3; bh=O Z062ESBzSHFzYngCAv7dsZ11F5STmLdRCnveWJ2P8Q=; b=XjXGWuDqHyT7JQypZ XPGR519TZxt5x6s8EdPbwB75edRjA+2dUk/TEqRkNkbb4MAxZZ/rgznpPe0/hoPW udg+2VnswKU7XypgvWHryENtS0x+7IFOAOqs4BPjwB1GEHXF9aHWSeXI5U7seOtc iykn+Rxh8OmhM1nlRd04fTN10gXbcoIpPzivPUIPeguCE6FLU6zMnTo5p2mYXQZU 36Z9ho7032Db+nzr5litf/ztbHEgb6TAugvw0Hb9vqPXZApayiU/5aduar7mGtgl dpHF/074PlQjsecFl5y/oX2aHPmFv9g//ZWDtAEJxJQ9V+JdtRhbvjo/f1HIhQiX /dmaA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=OZ062ESBzSHFzYngCAv7dsZ11F5STmLdRCnveWJ2P 8Q=; b=PVn30HX7dCxktE7HNRT7OiFDc2rT6ZZOowiSzDoNDB0buqHYT9+pvFzpb o1OrZMpD3GD6jMve1K1E60dQNNNC9wZg6i0ZsklOuaDYUSrnGinuh0wAvI9e9NPh Ir8uBfxLY/5eDh7o7eus36YrxGuXPGLQfu6kx+poc4NkLye8/WnQUdoP0WylzMsF mNrR5hD98yZuFTwDeF13SXjfFCAUVh0P/mRaicl7Kuw/S5US4A/oAd+oACJpq+Ro 0Yk9olHQKiHcx83eZOw814uJacQGRkbx9q3LEKeyDkcPAhGflDYoJy17E3oG8ZyP W/vzNaIwHJrxQC+swfUC0k8TAF1sQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduvddrkedtgddutdekucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtjeenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhk ucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucffohhmrghinh eptggvrhhtihhfihgtrghtvgdqthhrrghnshhprghrvghntgihrdhorhhgpdhtfihithht vghrrdgtohhmpdhmnhhothdrnhgvthenucfkphepfedurddufeefrdduheehrddvgeekne curfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecuvehluhhs thgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: from dhcp-9bf8.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-9bf8.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.155.248]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 0DA9C80061; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 13:24:53 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 13:24:50 -0400 Cc: ART Area , Devon O'Brien Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <372FA049-7B33-4981-A0E0-41BD454CB770@mnot.net> References: <58BF6171-03BB-4F83-940F-3A101EFDD67F@mnot.net> To: Jacob Hoffman-Andrews X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] On BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 17:24:58 -0000 On 24 Jul 2019, at 12:51 pm, Jacob Hoffman-Andrews = wrote: >=20 > So CT is totally fine with regards to this part of BCP 190 Section = 2.3: >=20 > > For example, an application ought not specify a fixed URI path > > "/myapp", since this usurps the host's control of that space. Yep. > It's this part of BCP 190 Section 2.3 that is causing the issue: >=20 > > Specifying a fixed path relative to another (e.g., = {whatever}/myapp) > > is also bad practice (even if "whatever" is discovered as suggested > > in Section 3); while doing so might prevent collisions, it does = not > > avoid the potential for operational difficulties (for example, an > > implementation that prefers to use query processing instead, = because > > of implementation constraints). >=20 > To be clear, the "whatever" in this case is referred to as in CT, and is discovered via the known logs list = (https://www.certificate-transparency.org/known-logs) and browser CT = programs. Yes -- and this text should definitely be considered when revising 190. = Like I said, we've moved on a fair amount since then (although we still = have a ways to go).=20 One thing I'd like to see in a revision is a clearer separation between = "you're potentially harming others by doing this; don't do it" and = "you're potentially harming yourself by doing this; think carefully = before proceeding." > On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 11:14 AM Mark Nottingham = wrote: > common practices for an API that's implemented once and deployed on = one server that's under the control of the designer (e.g., = api.twitter.com) are often not appropriate for an API that is = implemented many times, deployed on many servers owned by different = people, and sometimes evolved independently >=20 > This is a valuable and subtle point, and I think the crux of the = matter. It's actually surprisingly rare to see an HTTP API that is = designed to be implemented many times. But if you look at those that are = (RFC 7482, RFC 7808, RFC 8040, Mastodon, and Git, for example), what = they have in common is that they are all organized around a hostname and = path prefix, just like CT. Agreed.=20 The discussion I had with Devon the other day led to two paths (not that = there aren't others; these just seem most likely as ways forward): 1) Using .well-known. This is precisely what well-known is for, and if = hosting multiple logs is a concern, you can just require that = /.well-known/mumble/ be the prefix you use; e.g., you could use = something like /.well-known/ct-logs/2019/ as a prefix if you want to = shard by year. 2) Getting an exception.=20 AFAICT the arguments against #1 are: a) that some people don't have access to .well-known on their servers -- = but this seems like a very poor argument for this particular use case. b) aesthetic =C2=AF\_(=E3=83=84)_/=C2=AF #2's main downside is the process of getting the exception and agreeing = on text. FWIW I'm happy to support an exception here (but would be = happier if someone could explain why #1 isn't a sufficient option), and = help come up with a small bit of text. You might want to talk to ADs = about how much process they want to impose before walking down this = path, but I can't see it taking that long personally. Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Wed Jul 24 10:49:52 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E8A2120112 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 10:49:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=letsencrypt.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8VwGUZJWXK7K for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 10:49:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x832.google.com (mail-qt1-x832.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::832]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 937D2120059 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 10:49:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x832.google.com with SMTP id l9so46317457qtu.6 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 10:49:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=letsencrypt.org; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=4pRAAwvfk1iDYggzyJ1EXn9ZjDhau4v7U5WMgPoGIEI=; b=AicVnLDw8nhbZsuWBjW+D+A5IoUnktgTOeWV3aVH4fwwgCvLsLexWzrRMPkF4imBEC Go2BkkULElHTuqL56k8eU+FV15Xl6zrz4jp/dDyxtPfgj2U/U8dJnyfnK7DT1PfQKdT+ jkSOS6EE5tWc/DIWGK/xjJ2J3GtZrsqGMnh9Q= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4pRAAwvfk1iDYggzyJ1EXn9ZjDhau4v7U5WMgPoGIEI=; b=aakylZ9Bm5eXX97IGbkXxbPxmBTN3kRmRr+3ZlThcF0Q1KD1Xh9FTb46o75ZNq4ZWV 385qzWx/a70Ux867x0kvQj5/nkQpCq5ilB75aV1YSuyWEvOj8qIPXYmB6tTI8IzBBMbi KXm1WhyYS4drtOpcxn8swfYBHMiQFQhPunOcgX+ZDrV8z4fDirxN4+6INAnCwYcJmlBE A6S34pa0Xd478m0BS2mDUNakNDOfyzm5ZphOsHXe+U/RlxPzjrwQ+F9mTsIsPIZTuy5R iOLFVTRj1cCIQvc3gNYphONT9fBIWxcEGPZsYWun9urQeJnUvYqAMh0Z6aXKnnU8AUlX GHSA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXeYM7GZ5qUgplQjfhIm0gXbb9Kb0yRXdvpQ6eS5rm/ao+hIeBE CPUO4LJX+zwpAF6isGeGIeXqOWVfMcE1tXoHBMsbng== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwfmdP6qUn9eRDR4UPJLyaXE8Jra75p4jgHSzgAD0zuKGJ3y7AXO+f3dAByiYGN/VlZTGTsYmESnqXngIjR4/A= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:26d9:: with SMTP id 25mr59824717qtp.377.1563990586709; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 10:49:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <58BF6171-03BB-4F83-940F-3A101EFDD67F@mnot.net> <372FA049-7B33-4981-A0E0-41BD454CB770@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <372FA049-7B33-4981-A0E0-41BD454CB770@mnot.net> From: Jacob Hoffman-Andrews Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 10:49:20 -0700 Message-ID: To: Mark Nottingham Cc: ART Area , "Devon O'Brien" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005a6d14058e70ef38" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] On BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 17:49:50 -0000 --0000000000005a6d14058e70ef38 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Jul 24, 2019 at 10:24 AM Mark Nottingham wrote: > > It's this part of BCP 190 Section 2.3 that is causing the issue: > > > > > Specifying a fixed path relative to another (e.g., {whatever}/myapp) > > > is also bad practice (even if "whatever" is discovered as suggested > > > in Section 3); while doing so might prevent collisions, it does not > > > avoid the potential for operational difficulties (for example, an > > > implementation that prefers to use query processing instead, because > > > of implementation constraints). > > > > To be clear, the "whatever" in this case is referred to as > in CT, and is discovered via the known logs list ( > https://www.certificate-transparency.org/known-logs) and browser CT > programs. > > Yes -- and this text should definitely be considered when revising 190. > Like I said, we've moved on a fair amount since then (although we still > have a ways to go). > > One thing I'd like to see in a revision is a clearer separation between > "you're potentially harming others by doing this; don't do it" and "you're > potentially harming yourself by doing this; think carefully before > proceeding." > Which category to you think that paragraph of Section 2.3 (call it 2.3b) belongs to? It sounds like it belongs to the "harming yourself" category, which means that it's not actually protecting a commons. And to be clear, even though 2.3b sounds advisory-only, it's this clause at the top of Section 2.3 that has broader normative language: > specifications MUST NOT constrain, > or define the structure or the semantics for any path component. > a) that some people don't have access to .well-known on their servers -- > but this seems like a very poor argument for this particular use case. > Andrew Ayer presented one concrete case where the use of .well-known presented implementation difficulties for Google, a company that presumably has full control over its servers. I don't know the details of why, but I can guess: .well-known is dangerous. As a hosting provider, allowing users to upload abritrary files to /.well-known/acme-challenge means the users can get certificates for the hosted domain name. Probably there are other security-relevant things under /.well-known/. The safe and reasonable thing is to just block access to /.well-known/. I would guess that Google's security team has set a policy: All access to .well-known is blocked at the frontends unless it's gone through a detailed review. So we have advice in BCP 190 meant to ensure that protocols allow implementers to implement any way they want (e.g. with query parameters to represent semantics). But instead, the advice to require /.well-known/ is creating practical barriers for implementers to implement things in the way they want. Also, if the reasoning for 2.3b is that implementers might only be able to use query parameters, not paths, then specifying paths under .well-known doesn't solve that problem at all. Thanks, Jacob --0000000000005a6d14058e70ef38 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Jul 24, 2019 at 10:24 AM Mark Not= tingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:
> It's this part of BCP 190 Section 2.3 that is causing t= he issue:
>
> >=C2=A0 Specifying a fixed path relative to another (e.g., {whateve= r}/myapp)
> >=C2=A0 is also bad practice (even if "whatever" is disco= vered as suggested
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0in Section 3); while doing so might prevent collision= s, it does not
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0avoid the potential for operational difficulties (for= example, an
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0implementation that prefers to use query processing i= nstead, because
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0of implementation constraints).
>
> To be clear, the "whatever" in this case is referred to as &= lt;log server> in CT, and is discovered via the known logs list (https://www.certificate-transparency.org/known-logs)= and browser CT programs.

Yes -- and this text should definitely be considered when revising 190. Lik= e I said, we've moved on a fair amount since then (although we still ha= ve a ways to go).

One thing I'd like to see in a revision is a clearer separation between= "you're potentially harming others by doing this; don't do it= " and "you're potentially harming yourself by doing this; thi= nk carefully before proceeding."

W= hich category to you think that paragraph of Section 2.3 (call it 2.3b) bel= ongs to? It sounds like it belongs to the "harming yourself" cate= gory, which means that it's not actually protecting a commons.

And to be clear, even though 2.3b sounds advisory-only, it= 's this clause at the top of Section 2.3 that has broader normative lan= guage:

> specifications MUST NOT constrain,
>=C2=A0 =C2= =A0or define the structure or the semantics for any path component.
=C2= =A0
a) that some peo= ple don't have access to .well-known on their servers -- but this seems= like a very poor argument for this particular use case.

Andrew Ayer presented one concrete case where the use of = .well-known presented implementation difficulties for Google, a company tha= t presumably has full control over its servers. I don't know the detail= s of why, but I can guess: .well-known is dangerous. As a hosting provider,= allowing users to upload abritrary files to /.well-known/acme-challenge me= ans the users can get certificates for the hosted domain name. Probably the= re are other security-relevant things under /.well-known/. The safe and rea= sonable thing is to just block access to /.well-known/. I would guess that = Google's security team has set a policy: All access to .well-known is b= locked at the frontends unless it's gone through a detailed review.

So we have advice in BCP 190 meant to ensure that pro= tocols allow implementers to implement any way they want (e.g. with query p= arameters to represent semantics). But instead, the advice to require /.wel= l-known/ is creating practical barriers for implementers to implement thing= s in the way they want.

Also, if the reasoning for= 2.3b is that implementers might only be able to use query parameters, not = paths, then specifying paths under .well-known doesn't solve that probl= em at all.

Thanks,
Jacob
--0000000000005a6d14058e70ef38-- From nobody Wed Jul 24 10:59:35 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 324CE12015B for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 10:59:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=OOWF+txr; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=QeL5eH2q Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LEpHdRdZ-r8x for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 10:59:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 38632120059 for ; 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Wed, 24 Jul 2019 13:59:26 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 13:59:25 -0400 Cc: ART Area , Devon O'Brien Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <58BF6171-03BB-4F83-940F-3A101EFDD67F@mnot.net> <372FA049-7B33-4981-A0E0-41BD454CB770@mnot.net> To: Jacob Hoffman-Andrews X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] On BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 17:59:32 -0000 > On 24 Jul 2019, at 1:49 pm, Jacob Hoffman-Andrews = wrote: >=20 > On Wed, Jul 24, 2019 at 10:24 AM Mark Nottingham = wrote: > > It's this part of BCP 190 Section 2.3 that is causing the issue: > >=20 > > > Specifying a fixed path relative to another (e.g., = {whatever}/myapp) > > > is also bad practice (even if "whatever" is discovered as = suggested > > > in Section 3); while doing so might prevent collisions, it does = not > > > avoid the potential for operational difficulties (for example, = an > > > implementation that prefers to use query processing instead, = because > > > of implementation constraints). > >=20 > > To be clear, the "whatever" in this case is referred to as in CT, and is discovered via the known logs list = (https://www.certificate-transparency.org/known-logs) and browser CT = programs. >=20 > Yes -- and this text should definitely be considered when revising = 190. Like I said, we've moved on a fair amount since then (although we = still have a ways to go).=20 >=20 > One thing I'd like to see in a revision is a clearer separation = between "you're potentially harming others by doing this; don't do it" = and "you're potentially harming yourself by doing this; think carefully = before proceeding." >=20 > Which category to you think that paragraph of Section 2.3 (call it = 2.3b) belongs to? It sounds like it belongs to the "harming yourself" = category, which means that it's not actually protecting a commons. Probably the latter. That's just my opinion, though -- which is why if = you want to go down the exception path, the best thing to do would be to = coordinate with the AD and figure out what that's going to take. > And to be clear, even though 2.3b sounds advisory-only, it's this = clause at the top of Section 2.3 that has broader normative language: >=20 > > specifications MUST NOT constrain, > > or define the structure or the semantics for any path component. Yep. > a) that some people don't have access to .well-known on their servers = -- but this seems like a very poor argument for this particular use = case. >=20 > Andrew Ayer presented one concrete case where the use of .well-known = presented implementation difficulties for Google, a company that = presumably has full control over its servers. I don't know the details = of why, but I can guess: .well-known is dangerous. As a hosting = provider, allowing users to upload abritrary files to = /.well-known/acme-challenge means the users can get certificates for the = hosted domain name. Probably there are other security-relevant things = under /.well-known/. The safe and reasonable thing is to just block = access to /.well-known/. I would guess that Google's security team has = set a policy: All access to .well-known is blocked at the frontends = unless it's gone through a detailed review. Having a local policy for control of the name space of a web server = seems like a good thing. I'm not finding that a particularly convincing = reason -- especially when the review will likely amount to "consult the = RFC." Shrug. > So we have advice in BCP 190 meant to ensure that protocols allow = implementers to implement any way they want (e.g. with query parameters = to represent semantics). But instead, the advice to require = /.well-known/ is creating practical barriers for implementers to = implement things in the way they want. Going from "google has a policy for their web servers" to "practical = barriers" for the entire protocol seems like a long bow to draw.=20 Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Wed Jul 24 11:00:42 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50767120316 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 11:00:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id czKJgNYqpeBU for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 11:00:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppsw-31.csi.cam.ac.uk (ppsw-31.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D84E12015B for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 11:00:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Cam-AntiVirus: no malware found X-Cam-ScannerInfo: http://help.uis.cam.ac.uk/email-scanner-virus Received: from grey.csi.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.57.57]:40816) by ppsw-31.csi.cam.ac.uk (ppsw.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.137]:25) with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) id 1hqLZ6-000FHz-Lh (Exim 4.92) (return-path ); Wed, 24 Jul 2019 19:00:36 +0100 Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 19:00:36 +0100 From: Tony Finch To: Mark Nottingham cc: Jacob Hoffman-Andrews , ART Area , Devon O'Brien In-Reply-To: <372FA049-7B33-4981-A0E0-41BD454CB770@mnot.net> Message-ID: References: <58BF6171-03BB-4F83-940F-3A101EFDD67F@mnot.net> <372FA049-7B33-4981-A0E0-41BD454CB770@mnot.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (DEB 67 2015-01-07) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] On BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 18:00:41 -0000 Mark Nottingham wrote: > > 1) Using .well-known. This is precisely what well-known is for, I'm still having difficulty understanding this. RFC 8615 says: Some applications on the Web require the discovery of information about an origin [RFC6454] (sometimes called "site-wide metadata") before making a request. [...] When this happens, one solution is to designate a "well-known location" for data or services related to the origin overall, so that it can be easily located. [...] But CT isn't providing metadata about the origin overall. And CT has a separate mechanism for finding out where an endpointis located so it doesn't need a fixed well-known location. Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch http://dotat.at/ Irish Sea: South or southeast 3 to 5. Slight, occasionally moderate. Showers later. Good occasionally poor. From nobody Wed Jul 24 11:03:32 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4271012015B for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 11:03:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=Ig0nA0jt; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=0CpcbIlA Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZcNAKPa5czsO for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 11:03:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B0BA7120059 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 11:03:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFB253CC; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 14:03:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 24 Jul 2019 14:03:28 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm3; bh=P NZw09Sb7joyVPnlYJvAphF0MW7jqiyxIC9ISt7H3Ts=; b=Ig0nA0jt5MxGLDh/p DAtBWfbYo4xO9QxXU2VSc2fAPlzQSgmedCT0mbQEhk/m82rw1/ZcIPBTpEm9C8yR BlNwgW0K9THYw9zVTzatKQkMjeLoi7sKH/fHKszxqV87BGg+R5cYmVJD93iWbKcI SnhSTyx/q0I2cS756Ds2GZAmNg8si0uV6kk0XUxus/zQX9odTFZg/pDnGVS9EAXa WSjxA3vf7+YPFxji53k8vBpQXQmHQqd/FLYnlacvsZdWqdHNO38nj9pbnD/w1BfM GgQj2MZN5iB+coligNGsIL7WTTuRQw9LM1inJp8YIcyB2JyRr+xSVnnjsLjyQMAy d9ooQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=PNZw09Sb7joyVPnlYJvAphF0MW7jqiyxIC9ISt7H3 Ts=; b=0CpcbIlA2JtXjD3Bds2pHcJd3eD/77AelqvnichL/1HaP0DgH6wupYz5e OUt3z1zIygoZTApYC9jhcNJB45CjrjhlO00sMgc/bmWGs+apvo6pwMk1qZhoPSHN jsz+2D16GqvYyZW5n0MU10mVXEgGrDXmGdB8U3xuS8V/U5Lmy5UuTx+kqx0CuXB5 0E5dPVjfFm++Vz8NncPWIY14ZyzFNsQGmiQSo30bPmExMevzHDrXhglV/CkvwP4Z +U3Nn6+GSqFLSZSyxayULg4/DkVR2nZ7ygLLH8zYYxAvuDHFdg//11rKGyXTVdBA RQxcsal4xiceVNovigxB5z1wDeQiw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduvddrkedtgdduudehucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtvdenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhk ucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucffohhmrghinh epughothgrthdrrghtpdhmnhhothdrnhgvthenucfkphepfedurddufeefrdduheehrddv geeknecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecuve hluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: from dhcp-9bf8.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-9bf8.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.155.248]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id C0F11380076; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 14:03:25 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 14:03:24 -0400 Cc: Jacob Hoffman-Andrews , ART Area , Devon O'Brien Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <58BF6171-03BB-4F83-940F-3A101EFDD67F@mnot.net> <372FA049-7B33-4981-A0E0-41BD454CB770@mnot.net> To: Tony Finch X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] On BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 18:03:30 -0000 The applicable text is: """ At the same time, it has become more popular to use HTTP as a substrate for non-Web protocols. Sometimes, such protocols need a way to locate one or more resources on a given host. """ (Not particularly defending the clarity of that text overall -- we were = trying to graft an expanded set of use cases onto an existing spec). Cheers, > On 24 Jul 2019, at 2:00 pm, Tony Finch wrote: >=20 > Mark Nottingham wrote: >>=20 >> 1) Using .well-known. This is precisely what well-known is for, >=20 > I'm still having difficulty understanding this. RFC 8615 says: >=20 > Some applications on the Web require the discovery of information > about an origin [RFC6454] (sometimes called "site-wide metadata") > before making a request. [...] >=20 > When this happens, one solution is to designate a "well-known > location" for data or services related to the origin overall, so = that > it can be easily located. [...] >=20 > But CT isn't providing metadata about the origin overall. And CT has a > separate mechanism for finding out where an endpointis located so it > doesn't need a fixed well-known location. >=20 > Tony. > --=20 > f.anthony.n.finch http://dotat.at/ > Irish Sea: South or southeast 3 to 5. Slight, occasionally moderate. = Showers > later. Good occasionally poor. -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Wed Jul 24 11:41:27 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 252791202A5 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 11:41:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oJ9uYR2KMp83 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 11:41:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppsw-31.csi.cam.ac.uk (ppsw-31.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 72B6F12017F for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 11:41:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Cam-AntiVirus: no malware found X-Cam-ScannerInfo: http://help.uis.cam.ac.uk/email-scanner-virus Received: from grey.csi.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.57.57]:42848) by ppsw-31.csi.cam.ac.uk (ppsw.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.137]:25) with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) id 1hqMCY-000Zsa-Ln (Exim 4.92) (return-path ); Wed, 24 Jul 2019 19:41:22 +0100 Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 19:41:22 +0100 From: Tony Finch To: Mark Nottingham cc: Jacob Hoffman-Andrews , ART Area , Devon O'Brien In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <58BF6171-03BB-4F83-940F-3A101EFDD67F@mnot.net> <372FA049-7B33-4981-A0E0-41BD454CB770@mnot.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (DEB 67 2015-01-07) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] On BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 18:41:26 -0000 Mark Nottingham wrote: > The applicable text is: > > """ > At the same time, it has become more popular to use HTTP as a > substrate for non-Web protocols. Sometimes, such protocols need a > way to locate one or more resources on a given host. > """ OK, but that's immediately before the bit that says: When this happens, one solution is to designate a "well-known location" for data or services related to the origin overall, so that it can be easily located. "One solution" implies to me that .well-known is not aimed at cases where there are other solutions, as is the case for CT. (Even if BCP 190 doesn't like CT's solution...) I can't find any discussion about which non-web protocols were the inspiration for that paragraph, and what ways they were considered problematic. Is there more to the problem than how to get from a host name to a URL without trampling on the host's URL namespace? Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch http://dotat.at/ Fitzroy, Sole: South veering west 4 to 6, occasionally 7 at first. Moderate or rough, becoming very rough in west. Occasional thundery rain. Moderate or good, occasionally poor in southeast Fitzroy. From nobody Wed Jul 24 11:46:31 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCC23120460 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 11:46:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=letsencrypt.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EJu_8lufpxbh for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 11:46:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x732.google.com (mail-qk1-x732.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::732]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B3A6F12063B for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 11:46:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x732.google.com with SMTP id r4so34460287qkm.13 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 11:46:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=letsencrypt.org; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=/oPeD2TMaj3GH1f27g8XhR9O/795Xskqhj5QRdNyMQw=; b=KVmJx2jq1c8FAkfzdalALX3UjTHx3gdT/6mqfhA8QBkHHS8vh2vxXYPDleMm2Zt9FR yDz238qC6Cen9MjeNA/lKEdm3L95JcTw1gXCXrSM7EAz+CC1Ktz+TCddYJHK6yAMTFIj TEU/K7W31JULv76a4dW3QOlZ9jiqduhM8XpDA= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=/oPeD2TMaj3GH1f27g8XhR9O/795Xskqhj5QRdNyMQw=; b=Iq1qIIQnJNoYCWKtVibRZ1Hc7mrDoZoQTwum4ecuipFQ4zxonhTm5BZQE08c56njIS /2y13MeeFuzV9rFyqctCT70XxDv2eDVBVtaXndbLckpPJD+uWYPoMWxUh6rxsqV5dL/x i4MMF92XqU+Ag4SQaT05GkJ4uQiqilVEGfwwfW0fkwudwKyJHQLTKocyj5U/ys3sh8lk Jf3iojXtzckC9chaQkcvp1qa0EUMvj3bI1pM+Xi0XZPN8nF9fKAVJg22wA9rzczlND9R PbwjOGIHfGzW1DoLxTLc8MyX6zMvNzU2iiWtWXbGZNF0sF1MPf6H9aBtof3KQqfFMjXk if5Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXlS9hrl4DwSekn7FFL62wlHfSX1YN7hqAOj166vmJh02cUoVZA 00SoA/onQt3ouzpGwqlrqlry4TFymjkIYLmaKA1zaQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzm+42tpYoF9E0mLnoZX51GzAGx6n5Q1PSZI08JoynRbJ15hhbloStAzJujWYxm/yZu0fakiQ1DwwbYxiIbIl8= X-Received: by 2002:ae9:f010:: with SMTP id l16mr54592047qkg.292.1563993981892; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 11:46:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <58BF6171-03BB-4F83-940F-3A101EFDD67F@mnot.net> <372FA049-7B33-4981-A0E0-41BD454CB770@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: From: Jacob Hoffman-Andrews Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 11:45:55 -0700 Message-ID: To: Mark Nottingham Cc: Tony Finch , ART Area , "Devon O'Brien" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b8d0c6058e71b972" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] On BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 18:46:30 -0000 --000000000000b8d0c6058e71b972 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Jul 24, 2019 at 11:03 AM Mark Nottingham wrote: > """ > At the same time, it has become more popular to use HTTP as a > substrate for non-Web protocols. Sometimes, such protocols need a > way to locate one or more resources on a given host. > """ > > (Not particularly defending the clarity of that text overall -- we were > trying to graft an expanded set of use cases onto an existing spec). It seems like this graft didn't really solve the problem it intended to solve. Since Section 2.3b isn't about protecting the URL namespace commons, moving things under .well-known doesn't address the requirements laid out in 2.3b. Instead, 2.3b is about practicality, implementation, and "harming yourself." Since some implementers can only use query parameters (ostensibly), 2.3b says protocol designers should not define semantics based on paths. Moving the protocol under .well-known doesn't address those practical implementation concerns at all. If an implementer can only implement using query semantics, that is still a problem whether or not the prefix contains .well-known. > Which category to you think that paragraph of Section 2.3 (call it 2.3b) > belongs to? It sounds like it belongs to the "harming yourself" category, > which means that it's not actually protecting a commons. > Probably the latter. That's just my opinion, though -- which is why if you > want to go down the exception path, the best thing to do would be to > coordinate with the AD and figure out what that's going to take. FWIW, Adam Roach, one of the ART ADs, has said that what it would take is the community's agreement, which is what we're working on establishing right now. --000000000000b8d0c6058e71b972 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Jul 24, 2019 at 11:03 AM Mark Not= tingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:
"""
At the same time, it has become more popular to use HTTP as a
=C2=A0substrate for non-Web protocols.=C2=A0 Sometimes, such protocols need= a
=C2=A0way to locate one or more resources on a given host.
"""

(Not particularly defending the clarity of that text overall -- we were try= ing to graft an expanded set of use cases onto an existing spec).

It seems like this graft didn't really solve the= problem it intended to solve. Since Section 2.3b isn't about protectin= g the URL namespace commons, moving things under .well-known doesn't ad= dress the requirements laid out in 2.3b.

Instead, = 2.3b is about practicality, implementation, and "harming yourself.&quo= t; Since some implementers can only use query parameters (ostensibly), 2.3b= says protocol designers should not define semantics based on paths. Moving= the protocol under .well-known doesn't address those practical impleme= ntation concerns at all. If an implementer can only implement using query s= emantics, that is still a problem whether or not the prefix contains .well-= known.

> Which = category to you think that paragraph of Section 2.3 (call it 2.3b) belongs = to? It sounds like it belongs to the "harming yourself" category,= which means that it's not actually protecting a commons.
Probably t= he latter. That's just my opinion, though -- which is why if you want t= o go down the exception path, the best thing to do would be to coordinate w= ith the AD and figure out what that's going to take.
<= br>
FWIW, Adam Roach, one of the ART ADs, has said that what it w= ould take is the community's agreement, which is what we're working= on establishing right now.=C2=A0
--000000000000b8d0c6058e71b972-- From nobody Wed Jul 24 18:13:17 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1F34120625 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 18:13:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=dmfs.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S1TrPpNCLonr for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 18:13:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailrelay1-1.pub.mailoutpod1-cph3.one.com (mailrelay1-1.pub.mailoutpod1-cph3.one.com [46.30.210.182]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A5B47120614 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 18:13:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dmfs.org; s=20140924; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:in-reply-to:mime-version:date: message-id:from:references:to:subject:from; bh=jCRtr5QxAInCXDfn/rhCR8dc7qUk35HDwcXZy591fyY=; b=ZTiSiVQIJI+WqQP88+2306E5pTIAF9wgwtpDFZtl7+ZbL11ZwVwwsxRzLABUgwIxf6HSSOUGDesIa JLb3DwRvWGkwx6sYCefS9InLuxK7rAoRq1KR+Bos1akvry2N2J46D8KiZp0VONwYt+I3MX79Qcnzhy 3Dirr5Sp3t6lk8no= X-HalOne-Cookie: 23817146b91a7b807f1706732d94a0fcaa60b3ba X-HalOne-ID: 5c86e24d-ae79-11e9-aee2-d0431ea8a283 Received: from smtp.dmfs.org (unknown [2003:f6:af3f:af00:201:2eff:fe40:2624]) by mailrelay1.pub.mailoutpod1-cph3.one.com (Halon) with ESMTPSA id 5c86e24d-ae79-11e9-aee2-d0431ea8a283; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 01:13:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: from boss.localdomain (p548B1FBB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.139.31.187]) by smtp.dmfs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A4EE8342 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 03:13:07 +0200 (CEST) To: "art@ietf.org" References: <1b042605-4b3a-40b7-a792-2390c924282f@www.fastmail.com> <20190719133320.aPmih%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20190724142232.oOgpX%steffen@sdaoden.eu> From: Marten Gajda Message-ID: <82f0247e-22d4-3e02-079f-7f9dd5853b0f@dmfs.org> Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 03:13:05 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20190724142232.oOgpX%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 01:13:16 -0000 Am 24.07.19 um 16:22 schrieb Steffen Nurpmeso: > The barcode was a little irony; You seem to have in mind a totally > free world where you move in between say wireless networks and you > get automatically configured access wherever you are. No, I just want to configure my devices without having to enter all the addresses of the services I use very time. At present this only works well for proprietary software (e.g. MS Exchange) and dedicated clients (e.g. setting up a Google account on Android or iCloud on an Apple device). It's still a pain with arbitrary, generic clients and open standard protocols. The UX I'm striving for goes like this: Me: configure "bob@example.com" UA: Do you want to configure the account "bob@example.com" at Example Inc. ()? (provider name and Icon discovered automatically) Me: yep, that's my provider UA: Please enter your password for "bob@example.com" (or whatever the commonly supported authentication method ofclient and provider requires) Me: ************************* UA: Congratulations, your Email, Calendars and Contacts are now synced. Btw, you if you install one of these apps you can also chat with other users: ...... Entering more details would only be necessary if the provider I want to set up is not "example.com" but that's still part of my account identifier. Some providers allow you to pick a login name which is an email address of another provider. Average users don't recognize the difference between email address and account identifier, hence the extra step. > I hope i get informed and have to "ok" who debits my money, and > please let me wonder how this should work for anything but plain > transport providers? Sorry, I don't get your irony. What does this have to do with service-discovery? The sole purpose is to allow UAs to detect service configuration parameters that you would have to enter manually otherwise. Also, what's a "plain transport provider"? > I was talking about user interfaces. > Take the city München who moved from Linux back to another vendor, > just like Wien did many years before that. All voices i have > heard were not talking about technical problems. I still don't get it. Auto-discovery of service configurations enables UAs to build user-friendly setup routines. > How can a JSON file be better than that? Or is it dynamically > created when a user authenticates via client certificate, with > content exactly as desired for that user? Yes, that's how it's supposed to work. An authenticated user would essentially see his/her "personal" service configuration, dynamically generated. The user specific configuration may vary for a lot of reasons, some of them are: * user accounts are stored on different hosts because they are hosted in a data center close to the user's office * different users may have subscribed to different services * different users may have different SLAs For simple use cases a statically hosted document could work well, for more complex use cases the configuration could be generated dynamically for each user. > |address. A simple GET request to a well-known address, on the other > |hand, is barely an issue. There may be use cases in which it may not be > > Is it still that easy with HTTP/2? It may be difficult on older platforms if the server only supports HTTP/2 and not HTTP/1.1. However it's easier to overcome that with a 3rd party library than it is to overcome lack of support for DNS. With HTTP/2 you can use a library and you're done. With DNS you still need the address of a DNS server trusted by the user. And that's a platform specific issue. > I see this differently, and i tell you why. I think it deserts > the infrastructure. You have a thing here, and a thing there, and > all those parts move on individually and need to be tracked, and > of course administred, too. > > For example, email. From the three protocols SMTP, IMAP and POP3 > the last one is deserted, no one ever cared that it requires > a really stable internet connection because if you loose > connection after doing twenty things the server will have > forgotten you did so. And DKIM, DMARC and AUTOCRYPT were > introduced happily, massively increasing the size of message > headers, not updating POP3 to have a "body-only" command (even > though it seems trivial to add the counterpart to the "TOP" > command that anyway exists). Yeah, I know. It's also getting harder and harder to buy floppy disks. Looks like most stores have neglected them since CDs and DVDs became hip. And no one cared about increasing their capacity anymore. I hate to break it to you, but IMAP will probably have the same future. The potential successor is already in the works: https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/jmap/about/ > You ask for auto-configuration, do you? What shall be in that > JSON file you proclaim? I thought I already made that clear. Anyway here is a (non-exhaustive) list of potential data points * provider information, like * name * branding information, e.g. * an icon * a color scheme * legal information * contact and support information like * link to provider home page * link to provider terms of service * link to password reset page * link to account management page (e.g. where you can revoke access tokens or set defaults) * link to online support * support hotline phone number * address of email support * available services, including * a (ideally localized) display name of the service (e.g. "Inbox" or "Calendars") * endpoint URL * authentication information, e.g. * required OAuth2 scopes * information about the data set * which services provide the same data set (e.g. a provider might offer access to the same mailbox via IMAP, POP3, JMAP, MS Exchange, WebMail, so a multi protocol client should pick only one of them) * certificate pinning information * authentication information * for OAuth2 that would be the various endpoints * for client certificate authentication, that could be the required issuer > Again, what should be in this JSON you want to serve? > Is it personalized data then you need to have authenticated > yourself already -- for this you need to have an account? Yes, why would you need service auto-discovery if you don't have an account? > If it is not personalized data then what is missing from SRV RRs > ... that cannot be provided by indirecting via some URI template > pattern from a hypothetic SRVT? For starters, the document can be localized, either as per location and/or language settings in the user's account or by adhering the ACCEPT-LANGUAGE header. The list of services can be adjusted to the user's pricing/subscription model, e.g. premium/paying users see more services than free users, employees may have access to different services (developers see the git repo, sales gets to see the salesforces URL) If the server supports a (yet to be standardized) push protocol, the client could subscribe to changes on the service configuration. Scalability, multi-tenant setups can simply redirect all domains to the same document URL. With DNS you'd have to duplicate and maintain the entries for every domain a provider supports. Checking for updates is cheap, you can use conditional requests and get a "Not Modified" response if nothing has changed. I don't think you can do that with DNS. > What is better, something completely shiny new, like a nice little > JSON document under a new .well-known URL, or a mechanism that has > seen iterations and evolved to something that addresses problems > discovered after having former iterations in use. > (I know the former is the answer, of course, as in rewrite in C++, > from plain text to XML, rewrite in rust, move from XML to JSON, > etc.) IPV4 to IPV6, HTTP/1.0 to HTTP/1.1 to HTTP/2, floppy disk to CD to DVD, HDD to SSD, smoke signals to telephone, telnet to ssh, light bulb to LED ... that's how it works. Things get improved and eventually replaced. "Being better" is not a matter of old vs. new. It's a matter of "does it solve my problem?". Apparently DNS can not solve all the issues related to auto-configuration (and it doesn't have to). Btw, an auto-configuration document is not a new concept. MS Exchange had it for years and one of the default mechanisms is to look up a URL derived from the user's domain. Mozilla Thunderbird has a similar mechanism. What's missing is an open and standardized mechanism that's not tailored for email but very generic. > Oh, i am totally opposed to DNSSEC. I would go for TLS/DTLS, and > i do not understand why the data cannot be signed with some TLS > certificate that can simply be looked up by doing a say HTTPS > connect to the zone's main address. Whoa! Your refuting hosting a service-configuration document on a webserver but you would base your DNS security on HTTPS? As per you logic you probably should provide the certificate in another DNS RR. If you have a better (simpler) solution than DNSSEC, why don't you write up an RFC draft and submit it for discussion? Anyway this is far off-topic. > Yes. Exactly. And i really wonder what should be the content of > that non-public version, and how it can be accessed, and even > more, interpreted. See above. Services and contact/support information could only be accessible after authentication, because they may not be meant for the public or be user specific (e.g. an employee in the European office could get a different support hotline than an employee located in America). Interpretation is easy if there is a standardized document schema. -- Marten Gajda CEO dmfs GmbH Schandauer Straße 34 01309 Dresden GERMANY phone: +49 177 4427167 email: marten@dmfs.org Managing Director: Marten Gajda Registered address: Dresden Registered No.: AG Dresden HRB 34881 VAT Reg. No.: DE303248743 From nobody Wed Jul 24 21:09:06 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A7211201E2 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 21:09:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=packetizer.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ceSIjMA17dDG for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 21:09:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dublin.packetizer.com (dublin.packetizer.com [IPv6:2600:1f18:24d6:2e01:e842:9b2b:72a2:d2c6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 591371201C5 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 21:09:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from authuser (localhost [127.0.0.1]) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=packetizer.com; s=dublin; t=1564027740; bh=PVpkySzQh3GH3QT0/EyLvd5eQOl798Zz472SjAKdMI4=; h=From:To:Subject:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:References:Reply-To; b=NHUta9X/khdMJMkzbGCdJdWPBgg2+4WzNW7pdU67czVjdazwFXgmmv+F/+nTwHy3Q sPAicwWrFbIFZcORunCEa/qMvcFJOaGSclCj15KcjiXAGXxyAatjTcVnT26IM0AvIJ VsBUWqhgp1dgoZVKGdpBnyiAoU15CZnMVhA6WJvE= From: "Paul E. Jones" To: "Dave Cridland" , "John R Levine" Cc: "General Area Review Team (gen-art@ietf.org)" Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 04:08:57 +0000 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <20190720050445.925A852550A@ary.qy> Reply-To: "Paul E. Jones" User-Agent: eM_Client/7.2.35595.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------=_MB4FB63F96-DE69-459D-A92C-A74DFBEBFE0A" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 04:09:05 -0000 --------=_MB4FB63F96-DE69-459D-A92C-A74DFBEBFE0A Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dave, >We could bake that functionality into the autoconfig fomat, of course,=20 >but it feels like refreshing the config can happen at a different=20 >cadence to a SRV lookup, and besides, SRV works well. It works well for the simplest use case, but SRV records are really=20 limited. I can name a three things SRV records cannot do today that are=20 effectively render it useless for me: 1) It cannot tell the MUA the login ID to use (which may or may not be=20 the email address) [or what credential mechanism to use] 2) It cannot specify (if I recall) that TLS must be used per corporate=20 policy [this is important since both IMAP and mail submission generally=20 offer STARTTLS as an option] 3) It doesn't allow specifying different servers for different users Paul --------=_MB4FB63F96-DE69-459D-A92C-A74DFBEBFE0A Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
= Dave,

We could bake that functional= ity into the autoconfig fomat, of course, but it feels like refreshing the= config can happen at a different cadence to a SRV lookup, and besides, SRV= works well.
It works well for the simplest use case= , but SRV records are really limited. I can name a three things SRV records = cannot do today that are effectively render it useless for me:

1) It canno= t tell the MUA the login ID to use (which may or may not be the email addre= ss) [or what credential mechanism to use]

2) It cannot specify (if I recall= ) that TLS must be used per corporate policy [this is important since both= IMAP and mail submission generally offer STARTTLS as an option]

3) It doesn= 't allow specifying different servers for different users

Paul

=
--------=_MB4FB63F96-DE69-459D-A92C-A74DFBEBFE0A-- From nobody Wed Jul 24 21:46:02 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 962C4120047 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 21:46:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=n3hv4O4T; dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=V5fU8OJp Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fds0Ha6oHLui for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 21:45:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C201212001E for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 21:45:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 4273 invoked from network); 25 Jul 2019 04:45:57 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; s=10af.5d393405.k1907; i=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=UNlxTAuaxOjNaTq+oY4yYTQvfkGwVWza8SW7gYUHy6A=; b=n3hv4O4Tt1MBeSF+Rkednjwyh49K9ZA6fzA4TRa4HjpcJseiTDq9YyCKA+rPhW6WcC4b0m9wZqHLVVg4VvPhZ6/Hp+HZylOGbHC2ciDz3P30IPTgIP01JMoMZuf58EidpiTx6D6RO5DsINrVC631epTXk8Ce4i0NwQJXJcM22rEWzcJ19T4Zcub24k+GUsJGwPyTtwpfMkdAXy1frp1/UAzLcKobJSg6ecFEJNG0tHjcwX+U9gRU1s59gSNnUOf5 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; s=10af.5d393405.k1907; olt=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=UNlxTAuaxOjNaTq+oY4yYTQvfkGwVWza8SW7gYUHy6A=; b=V5fU8OJpArg6o3bFLR/cmUo5yHohnVdx0Mq21DsWJqNYOgQIxe7gwaThlouZEkOLg+8nTAGOpzZb7Vr3mBd+YT7F9DLDUB5EPy7JVNI+zbSS1kC3xchhFco6I2CQ+hA90lzTAnMTciRa9etWgEaBM1i3G8LNHE5psO0kebNsYXu0mXNzaalDDjNZlVXiNwTmGlzUAgMDCuowuwhZePwJifoWaAf2Ab6fPSvRJGR6XM8arTNDzyzJjcG6rpFozzvO Received: from [172.20.1.15] ([12.133.212.60]) by imap.iecc.com ([64.57.183.75]) with ESMTPSA (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD, johnl@iecc.com) via TCP; 25 Jul 2019 04:45:56 -0000 Date: 24 Jul 2019 21:45:55 -0700 Message-ID: From: "John Levine" To: "Paul E. Jones" Cc: "Dave Cridland" , "General Area Review Team (gen-art@ietf.org)" X-X-Sender: johnl@johns-macbook-air.local In-Reply-To: References: <20190720050445.925A852550A@ary.qy> User-Agent: Alpine 2.21.99999 (OSX 360 2019-07-19) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 04:46:01 -0000 > 2) It cannot specify (if I recall) that TLS must be used per corporate policy [this is important since > both IMAP and mail submission generally offer STARTTLS as an option] It can sort of do that by publishing _imaps._tcp rather than _imap._tcp but in general you are correct that SRV just isn't up to the job in this case. R's, John From nobody Thu Jul 25 01:29:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A0901200C5 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 01:29:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cridland.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iQRTmcZGmWHJ for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 01:29:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x531.google.com (mail-ed1-x531.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::531]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C0025120460 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 01:29:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x531.google.com with SMTP id s49so14619387edb.1 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 01:29:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cridland.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=RDzGTE7UM4XFD0OAaDmeiVee+Q2dC/ktyGRlPZJfGpk=; b=LyCcKLtSvcvKyr+lSACEwFNkFl+Myf9vzZrp9/Lvj1K/X/Y9tnuEqSQV4w/9swfrtd B6ldU3K9CA4HKMTkH/VnaQEdvptPCcN5Gax9yvqZFU5HT0hSN7JT8toTWroM8exdqZa+ VH26ffg3PvAFgt50xrXf8qu1F0VjmO5h1YVoQ= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=RDzGTE7UM4XFD0OAaDmeiVee+Q2dC/ktyGRlPZJfGpk=; b=SDqJAoa46hdMtoAtNYo6vJMHmJi9YAdbpKXS35hYhwprE+kemofycrF+hlFe+XDWAX E4/96UidLWnoUZkhTy623WprwyerE701M9Kqy+zPg1GunodSYFS8VHOr3WI5jGyttr/Z tDSzJOYpksIGPcj/nbcbAEuTkmGyMDrdipO+d7vLKcP1RGTFbR80ufYbUm/Z3q/Yvw9r IKDMfpTiyOoqOApXLEbH2uXaquxv5cWpHZo5MwYPtdItqaa7CNyycgjxSP/ffnE3NFiH hOraEy/YNdOq2MLISycpIyAOFLlDUIIGrwk/cX2O6W4YZZH+vU1Ei56/mjXM+4ERfUzK rj6A== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUwoeB+JA1cA4H42MXlf0/C3eMZvzzaxQ9QM/IgEQx8I1FcSPak UZz6imGxCQBpYjY1iXpYCq7Y22YhFXXXzmRKL1XIsrQHd8A= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwfpAbUZn7DNDAv7Cpd2gz2M7lILVrbpqqilQbf7uIxBo4Enaw0jryndB+YwdIsLsof+dbIclu5GDn1gNXoaMs= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:b243:: with SMTP id ce3mr65648237ejb.176.1564043347198; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 01:29:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20190720050445.925A852550A@ary.qy> In-Reply-To: From: Dave Cridland Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 09:28:56 +0100 Message-ID: To: "Paul E. Jones" Cc: John R Levine , "General Area Review Team (gen-art@ietf.org)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001f985c058e7d386c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 08:29:13 -0000 --0000000000001f985c058e7d386c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, 25 Jul 2019 at 05:09, Paul E. Jones wrote: > Dave, > > We could bake that functionality into the autoconfig fomat, of course, but > it feels like refreshing the config can happen at a different cadence to a > SRV lookup, and besides, SRV works well. > > > It works well for the simplest use case, but SRV records are really > limited. I can name a three things SRV records cannot do today that are > effectively render it useless for me: > > 1) It cannot tell the MUA the login ID to use (which may or may not be the > email address) [or what credential mechanism to use] > > 2) It cannot specify (if I recall) that TLS must be used per corporate > policy [this is important since both IMAP and mail submission generally > offer STARTTLS as an option] > > 3) It doesn't allow specifying different servers for different users > > And to re-iterate, I'm not suggesting we should forgo any kind of autoconfiguration format in favour of SRV; I'm suggesting that having the autoconfiguration format specify servers in the form of SRV would be useful. That said, (2) is irrelevant on two counts : a) You can use `imaps` SRV records just fine. They're published for gmail.com, go have a look. b) You can require TLS via STARTTLS within the protocols, and you'd have to anyway, irrespective of what any autoconfiguration stipulated. Would you consider stipulating a policy in an autoconfiguration file but not enforce it in the services? I shall now reiterate the arguments in favour of using SRV in this way, because it seems I've not be clear enough. First, some background: I have written both email servers and an MUA, and for the latter, I wrote a complete ACAP server to support autoconfiguration. ACAP is effectively dead, but the experience has left me with some practical experience of how to write autoconfiguration support in an MUA, and - more importantly - some idea of how one might retrofit that support into an existing MUA. The fact is that existing MUAs often have plenty of support for an autoconfiguration step, but it exists during setup. So you can easily specify authentication identifiers and so on at this point, but if the autoconfiguration source changes, you're out of luck. This is unsurprising, since with IMAP at least, a decent MUA has to do quite substantial effort on first connect anyway in order to make decisions on the remote server's mailbox layout. It might change with JMAP, but all existing MUAs are currently IMAP-based, so in order to gain market traction, we need to aim for this "auto setup" model. The UX we're expecting is that, during Setup and "Add New Account", the user enters an email address, and specifies credentials, and they're done - the MUA will then autoconfigure the new account. There's lots of useful information that can be sourced here from an autoconfiguration service. Does the service support subaddressing? Is the authentication for the submission service the same as the authentication for the IMAP service (so, can I share credentials?). All of this is useful and vital information, and I'm not going to advocate scrapping it (instead, though, please do look at the ACAP dataset definitions for some thoughts and ideas - Randy Gellens put a lot of good work into those). During connection, there is more discovery. This includes locating the hosts via DNS, discovering what TLS support is available, discovering what authentication mechanisms are supported, and so on. There are pages of RFCs already in existence for how these different processes work, and much of it we - in the app layer - don't care about, because it's taken care of by DNS libraries, TLS libraries, and SASL. However, this second phase is routinely done - sometimes from scratch - every time a connection is made. It's here I'm suggesting that existing clients could easily be made to use SRV (with A/AAA fallback), and gain some useful resilience, since this resolution occurs on every connection, and not just on service configuration. Thanks to a lot of time spent in the XMPP space (where most clients fully autoconfigure off the Jid), I'm familiar with the benefits of SRV, and how easy or hard it is to do on most platforms (these days, very easy, and with added DNSSEC, DTLS, and/or DOH). There's also final part of discovery for an MUA. Here, after connection and authentication, an MUA looks at server layout, features, and so on. It will examine the mailbox layout. Is there a specific Drafts folder? What does NAMESPACE return? Is BURL supported on the submission server? While these are all, in principle, subject to change, doing so will deeply confuse many MUAs, so it's best to consider these a one-off setup. It is, I think, this that means that the pragmatic aim for this is to assume that whatever we choose to design, the protocol will mostly be used for "auto setup", and not a more continuous "auto configuration". Perhaps something else is the forcing factor though - in any event, auto configuration sources are used as one-off procedures during setup and not on as a part of connection, startup, etc. I hope this is clearer. Dave. --0000000000001f985c058e7d386c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, 25 Jul 2019 at 05:09, Paul E.= Jones <paulej@packetizer.com> wrote:
Dave,

=
We could bake that functionality into the a= utoconfig fomat, of course, but it feels like refreshing the config can hap= pen at a different cadence to a SRV lookup, and besides, SRV works well.

It works well for the = simplest use case, but SRV records are really limited. I can name a three t= hings SRV records cannot do today that are effectively render it useless fo= r me:

1) It cannot tell= the MUA the login ID to use (which may or may not be the email address) [o= r what credential mechanism to use]

2) It cannot specify (if I recall) that TLS must be used per c= orporate policy [this is important since both IMAP and mail submission gene= rally offer STARTTLS as an option]

3) It doesn't allow specifying different servers for differ= ent users

=

<= div>
a) You can use `imaps` SRV records just fine. They're pub= lished for gmail.com, go have a look.

b) You can require TLS via STARTTLS within the protoco= ls, and you'd have to anyway, irrespective of what any autoconfiguratio= n stipulated. Would you consider stipulating a policy in an autoconfigurati= on file but not enforce it in the services?

I shal= l now reiterate the arguments in favour of using SRV in this way, because i= t seems I've not be clear enough.

First, some = background:

I have written both email servers and = an MUA, and for the latter, I wrote a complete ACAP server to support autoc= onfiguration. ACAP is effectively dead, but the experience has left me with= some practical experience of how to write autoconfiguration support in an = MUA, and - more importantly - some idea of how one might retrofit that supp= ort into an existing MUA.

The fact is that existin= g MUAs often have plenty of support for an autoconfiguration step, but it e= xists during setup. So you can easily specify authentication identifiers an= d so on at this point, but if the autoconfiguration source changes, you'= ;re out of luck. This is unsurprising, since with IMAP at least, a decent M= UA has to do quite substantial effort on first connect anyway in order to m= ake decisions on the remote server's mailbox layout. It might change wi= th JMAP, but all existing MUAs are currently IMAP-based, so in order to gai= n market traction, we need to aim for this "auto setup" model.

The UX we're expecting is that, during Setup and= "Add New Account", the user enters an email address, and specifi= es credentials, and they're done - the MUA will then autoconfigure the = new account. There's lots of useful information that can be sourced her= e from an autoconfiguration service. Does the service support subaddressing= ? Is the authentication for the submission service the same as the authenti= cation for the IMAP service (so, can I share credentials?). All of this is = useful and vital information, and I'm not going to advocate scrapping i= t (instead, though, please do look at the ACAP dataset definitions for some= thoughts and ideas - Randy Gellens put a lot of good work into those).

During connection, there is more discovery. This incl= udes locating the hosts via DNS, discovering what TLS support is available,= discovering what authentication mechanisms are supported, and so on. There= are pages of RFCs already in existence for how these different processes w= ork, and much of it we - in the app layer - don't care about, because i= t's taken care of by DNS libraries, TLS libraries, and SASL.
=
However, this second phase is routinely done - sometimes fro= m scratch - every time a connection is made. It's here I'm suggesti= ng that existing clients could easily be made to use SRV (with A/AAA fallba= ck), and gain some useful resilience, since this resolution occurs on every= connection, and not just on service configuration. Thanks to a lot of time= spent in the XMPP space (where most clients fully autoconfigure off the Ji= d), I'm familiar with the benefits of SRV, and how easy or hard it is t= o do on most platforms (these days, very easy, and with added DNSSEC, DTLS,= and/or DOH).

There's also final part of disco= very for an MUA. Here, after connection and authentication, an MUA looks at= server layout, features, and so on. It will examine the mailbox layout. Is= there a specific Drafts folder? What does NAMESPACE return? Is BURL suppor= ted on the submission server? While these are all, in principle, subject to= change, doing so will deeply confuse many MUAs, so it's best to consid= er these a one-off setup. It is, I think, this that means that the pragmati= c aim for this is to assume that whatever we choose to design, the protocol= will mostly be used for "auto setup", and not a more continuous = "auto configuration". Perhaps something else is the forcing facto= r though - in any event, auto configuration sources are used as one-off pro= cedures during setup and not on as a part of connection, startup, etc.

I hope this is clearer.

Dave.=
--0000000000001f985c058e7d386c-- From nobody Thu Jul 25 07:49:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0906612006D for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 07:49:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ogv4CDYxz6Jg for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 07:49:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sdaoden.eu (sdaoden.eu [217.144.132.164]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 766AA1200E3 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 07:49:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sdaoden.eu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 70DC816054; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 16:49:08 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 16:49:07 +0200 From: Steffen Nurpmeso To: Marten Gajda Cc: "art@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20190725144907.xJ5i3%steffen@sdaoden.eu> In-Reply-To: <20190724142232.oOgpX%steffen@sdaoden.eu> References: <1b042605-4b3a-40b7-a792-2390c924282f@www.fastmail.com> <20190719133320.aPmih%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20190724142232.oOgpX%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Mail-Followup-To: Marten Gajda , "art@ietf.org" User-Agent: s-nail v14.9.13-136-g5ea28bbf OpenPGP: id=EE19E1C1F2F7054F8D3954D8308964B51883A0DD; url=https://ftp.sdaoden.eu/steffen.asc; preference=signencrypt BlahBlahBlah: Any stupid boy can crush a beetle. But all the professors in the world can make no bugs. Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 14:49:13 -0000 Hello. Sorry, but i am drawning in spam since i post in this thread, and so i lost your response by accident. Therefore like this. I also make it short since our personal discurs leads to nothing anyway, and that list is noisy as has not been for many many months. |list of potential data points | |* provider information, like | * name | * branding information, e.g. | * an icon | * a color scheme | * legal information |* contact and support information like | * link to provider home page | * link to provider terms of service | * legal information |* contact and support information like | * link to provider home page | * link to provider terms of service | * link to password reset page | * link to account management page (e.g. where you can revoke access |tokens or set defaults) | * link to online support | * support hotline phone number | * address of email support |* available services, including | * a (ideally localized) display name of the service (e.g. "Inbox" or |"Calendars") | * endpoint URL | * authentication information, e.g. | * required OAuth2 scopes | * information about the data set | * which services provide the same data set (e.g. a provider might |offer access to the same mailbox via IMAP, POP3, JMAP, MS Exchange, |WebMail, so a multi protocol client should pick only one of them) | * certificate pinning information |* authentication information | * for OAuth2 that would be the various endpoints | * for client certificate authentication, that could be the required issuer Well, this is obviously a different type of thing that i have in mind when i think about email, which is SMTP/POP3(/IMAP) here. (In fact ssh has to be added since it transports to postfix here.) This reduces the above a lot. What i need can be done by SRV, maybe a SRVT i could think about. I think the above is highly artificial, but having a SRV entry which provides an URI that leads to some kind of impressum, or imprint in english, is definetely something that is missing, when i think about it. Such things are often very hard to find on web pages, even though legally required (in Germany). The rest not, sorry. |The potential successor is already in the works: |https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/jmap/about/ Ah ja, that really is interesting. Mysterious RFC 2047 examples that should not occur in practice soil the stuff, but they of course make the UTF-8 data that the future brings stand out even more! Just like always, very nice. I see human beings happily looking at DKIM signatures in clear text, in that bright future. Mind you, keeping connections open more often in other protocols would improve the results, plain DNS is an example, but as you say correctly that now is also passed via the HTTP server (to the browser). If so, one could also imagine a mail superserver that switches in between SMTP and IMAP on request. Well, maybe not, the asynchronousity is missing for SMTP. Shall i live long enough to pimp the little text MUA i maintain, and then have a nice I/O layer, then if dovecot etc. and the major free mail services do offer JMAP already i might be going for this thing, rather than for IMAP itself! It really looks ok, and i enjoyed the option that user agents no longer need to worry about mail standards as such -- they can then simply take the JSON part and display it directly, this is almost what UPAS of Unix v10 and even more in Plan9 had a quarter of a century before that: using plain text processing on the individual parts of messages simply by accessing those as files in a (virtual) file system. The nmh people seem to locally reencode all data to UTF-8 to be able to do something *almost* similar. --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) From nobody Fri Jul 26 07:32:29 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 447A7120114 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2019 07:32:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=vbRq6hKS; dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=mdh06Tmw Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 317lexpkgIP6 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2019 07:32:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1237F12010E for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2019 07:32:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 66538 invoked from network); 26 Jul 2019 14:32:05 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; s=103e7.5d3b0ee5.k1907; i=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=ioMIw92iZTASeKAuroYlmY00Io3Km+VB960Y39NboaI=; b=vbRq6hKSEupzoIdkoG8yMJzG5eMmAJKov+nfIz/l4OG/vEyO/+Ok6OaseiisdLSkQ59kltmknGZ5RiIu+uYXmUMd9BGhMFRHARNseLbpuBFQn2OaUNBMet7CxW/PljY4G7Huw18QTDGcoB2suIWNqpiI65XvX/2BSp5sp4ehbUOqmOvweh0fb1TP9oxSWZ705HVSxhS6Cdmgmyqetzrnuwo7J8Erh+4WGS1O/O6uEIo9TXPT9BaRJVCJGj1wHdax DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; s=103e7.5d3b0ee5.k1907; olt=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=ioMIw92iZTASeKAuroYlmY00Io3Km+VB960Y39NboaI=; b=mdh06TmwFLF35SlJau0JTZ68ikCpzT83gg6wuNKdQ4JA0vZk/Sx3QAC7P4XSGClMFYLrx87RmzKKaO24R1Y6JSsZKG7Ms8yF0yBg1xXj56VuYGYk6nBJwMhzMzHRMP9njHIX22BNsMh9OjWP4tRiLB8gGBSAkzWRTo1WKDU6V9hV/Ou/Pj2BHNPJNLqxZLp+r92xg/H6Yry4KJAaxSBP5NkC7sne+T2BXzEsTYJurIiIVlCk+PYyQprW6xgKmU/m Received: from [2001:67c:1232:144:c818:12b:9534:d44] ([IPv6:2001:67c:1232:144:c818:12b:9534:d44]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPSA (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD, johnl@iecc.com) via TCP6; 26 Jul 2019 14:32:04 -0000 Date: 26 Jul 2019 10:32:04 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John Levine" To: "Dave Cridland" Cc: "Paul E. Jones" , "General Area Review Team (gen-art@ietf.org)" X-X-Sender: johnl@dhcp-9b6c.meeting.ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <20190720050445.925A852550A@ary.qy> User-Agent: Alpine 2.21.99999 (OSX 360 2019-07-19) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Auto-configuring Email Clients via WebFinger X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 14:32:26 -0000 I think we agree more than we disagree. I totally agree that only one-time setup when you add a new account to your MUA makes sense, not every time it starts up. But in this application I still don't see the benefit of an extra level of indirection via SRV. Whether we start with ACAP or (more likely) with the Mozilla XML format, you've already got the indirection. Large mail systems like Gmail and Hotmail/Outlook get redundancy now via multiple A and AAAA records. R's, John On Thu, 25 Jul 2019, Dave Cridland wrote: > > > On Thu, 25 Jul 2019 at 05:09, Paul E. Jones wrote: > Dave, > > We could bake that functionality into the autoconfig fomat, of course, but > it feels like refreshing the config can happen at a different cadence to a > SRV lookup, and besides, SRV works well. > > > It works well for the simplest use case, but SRV records are really limited. I can name > a three things SRV records cannot do today that are effectively render it useless for > me: > > 1) It cannot tell the MUA the login ID to use (which may or may not be the email > address) [or what credential mechanism to use] > > 2) It cannot specify (if I recall) that TLS must be used per corporate policy [this is > important since both IMAP and mail submission generally offer STARTTLS as an option] > > 3) It doesn't allow specifying different servers for different users > > > And to re-iterate, I'm not suggesting we should forgo any kind of autoconfiguration format in > favour of SRV; I'm suggesting that having the autoconfiguration format specify servers in the > form of SRV would be useful. > > That said, (2) is irrelevant on two counts : > > a) You can use `imaps` SRV records just fine. They're published for gmail.com, go have a look. > > b) You can require TLS via STARTTLS within the protocols, and you'd have to anyway, > irrespective of what any autoconfiguration stipulated. Would you consider stipulating a policy > in an autoconfiguration file but not enforce it in the services? > > I shall now reiterate the arguments in favour of using SRV in this way, because it seems I've > not be clear enough. > > First, some background: > > I have written both email servers and an MUA, and for the latter, I wrote a complete ACAP > server to support autoconfiguration. ACAP is effectively dead, but the experience has left me > with some practical experience of how to write autoconfiguration support in an MUA, and - more > importantly - some idea of how one might retrofit that support into an existing MUA. > > The fact is that existing MUAs often have plenty of support for an autoconfiguration step, but > it exists during setup. So you can easily specify authentication identifiers and so on at this > point, but if the autoconfiguration source changes, you're out of luck. This is unsurprising, > since with IMAP at least, a decent MUA has to do quite substantial effort on first connect > anyway in order to make decisions on the remote server's mailbox layout. It might change with > JMAP, but all existing MUAs are currently IMAP-based, so in order to gain market traction, we > need to aim for this "auto setup" model. > > The UX we're expecting is that, during Setup and "Add New Account", the user enters an email > address, and specifies credentials, and they're done - the MUA will then autoconfigure the new > account. There's lots of useful information that can be sourced here from an autoconfiguration > service. Does the service support subaddressing? Is the authentication for the submission > service the same as the authentication for the IMAP service (so, can I share credentials?). > All of this is useful and vital information, and I'm not going to advocate scrapping it > (instead, though, please do look at the ACAP dataset definitions for some thoughts and ideas - > Randy Gellens put a lot of good work into those). > > During connection, there is more discovery. This includes locating the hosts via DNS, > discovering what TLS support is available, discovering what authentication mechanisms are > supported, and so on. There are pages of RFCs already in existence for how these different > processes work, and much of it we - in the app layer - don't care about, because it's taken > care of by DNS libraries, TLS libraries, and SASL. > > However, this second phase is routinely done - sometimes from scratch - every time a > connection is made. It's here I'm suggesting that existing clients could easily be made to use > SRV (with A/AAA fallback), and gain some useful resilience, since this resolution occurs on > every connection, and not just on service configuration. Thanks to a lot of time spent in the > XMPP space (where most clients fully autoconfigure off the Jid), I'm familiar with the > benefits of SRV, and how easy or hard it is to do on most platforms (these days, very easy, > and with added DNSSEC, DTLS, and/or DOH). > > There's also final part of discovery for an MUA. Here, after connection and authentication, an > MUA looks at server layout, features, and so on. It will examine the mailbox layout. Is there > a specific Drafts folder? What does NAMESPACE return? Is BURL supported on the submission > server? While these are all, in principle, subject to change, doing so will deeply confuse > many MUAs, so it's best to consider these a one-off setup. It is, I think, this that means > that the pragmatic aim for this is to assume that whatever we choose to design, the protocol > will mostly be used for "auto setup", and not a more continuous "auto configuration". Perhaps > something else is the forcing factor though - in any event, auto configuration sources are > used as one-off procedures during setup and not on as a part of connection, startup, etc. > > I hope this is clearer. > > Dave. > > From nobody Sat Jul 27 23:26:31 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BF621200CD for ; Sat, 27 Jul 2019 23:26:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.557 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.557 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.091, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dvNudY6RqnXc for ; Sat, 27 Jul 2019 23:26:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x430.google.com (mail-pf1-x430.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::430]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E96FC120018 for ; Sat, 27 Jul 2019 23:26:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x430.google.com with SMTP id p184so26407406pfp.7 for ; Sat, 27 Jul 2019 23:26:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id :mime-version:thread-index:content-language; bh=ye1E8R1Fk8E77AeOPSFDmAfAtq2OpBL07aQ+ks7HPz8=; b=SHgqtFipIw7Xge/5Z1UtcXcaRGyQ8fUIdfmcThJhCzhkoPFulAAlm/wHc+X2vOoqDH Bpzcw8tGt6xmDWFn4QCztvJiU8m1VpXjh00pr7Xk12QvwxENTgREYkJ60E8VveQht0vb aXhpHv0fPSFLFAEK+YjmA4Uk+JuWXQ5hHBZRE+xNB8QX9j8H0miHdX+lUaYgJOz4eUdP ybUabqlDkWwoLcVdtZ1Cq62TPQ2m+W7RtvAG7+UImNVIeQBwdbvF/57rdG/8qzXSOEy9 6gSzxnCL8NQq3rYLNZckRKxb40qfcm820sy+jhDDvGEfuNE/tvVro2C8lKu2yyIGTxbI vxww== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject :date:message-id:mime-version:thread-index:content-language; bh=ye1E8R1Fk8E77AeOPSFDmAfAtq2OpBL07aQ+ks7HPz8=; b=DBgl9whtoMtjOOfurOcCfmuknr0+y+zmOy1My1ClMT4Gw65N629AVlFLkuRyvrYMKx pSXM64engQB5oegFI9gLwDKLy3MSIiCGXHhcgXqkwZwSQxbA/zCAhvTdow+BtTAs/jAW ldDtu0TX0wVN5Y/DIdOmJbQpwi/zR9VmBZfx6aMqzJQvNdgDkAn++AS1FZYrJ/VtktwR HzdiN00UPFC/DGEuyabCwxDFTUthjefLegQ27CQNpfOjVdy4/hTIOnx8TVPLzNpufnS5 xHgIK7rg5GarwO3Be9zPbF3f8Lq30fscT+vAiCH4QtMhJPc7bV04HzbZq7KfepTYvFBt TIQw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAW+tv8KTD5kE7X4UHHCfn1R62ZYMC2YG/lYpxN1jCZekWMbG9T1 lDpsnu0lbFKcb8Ci3EcdryZwvSU9 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwlCy5/Ft9H2fYrgkBBbyzoytdMjQBI8/HgKyepv5rCkMzqd2DXavtVBfAApjafc9LSt6x2JA== X-Received: by 2002:aa7:8a99:: with SMTP id a25mr30584697pfc.127.1564295187990; Sat, 27 Jul 2019 23:26:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TVPC (c-67-169-101-78.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [67.169.101.78]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h1sm72393479pfg.55.2019.07.27.23.26.26 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 27 Jul 2019 23:26:27 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Larry Masinter From: Larry Masinter X-Google-Original-From: "Larry Masinter" To: "'Jacob Hoffman-Andrews'" , "'Mark Nottingham'" Cc: "'ART Area'" , "'Devon O'Brien'" References: <58BF6171-03BB-4F83-940F-3A101EFDD67F@mnot.net> <372FA049-7B33-4981-A0E0-41BD454CB770@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2019 23:26:25 -0700 Message-ID: <004601d5450d$62b33220$28199660$@acm.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0047_01D544D2.B654F660" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQFxlPSiwrtxymI7oXhTAVMNSh8OAAJO5FUZAjbPnJ4BYG1OMqd3uxuA Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] On BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2019 06:26:30 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01D544D2.B654F660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Although it might seem like overkill, JSON HAL=20 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kelly-json-hal-08 seems like it=E2=80=99s intended as a way of avoiding having the client do string-hacking of URL paths (EXCEPT processing relative URLs and constructing GET URLs on some kinds of form submissions). =20 The use of / in the path of URLs was supposed to be restricted to hierarchical data, and yet CT doesn=E2=80=99t do that. http://masinter.blogspot.com/2019/05/on-nature-of-hierarchical-urls.html = =20 Now, why JSON-HAL is still an expired Internet Draft=20 is a puzzle. -- https://LarryMasinter.net=20 =20 =20 From: art On Behalf Of Jacob Hoffman-Andrews Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2019 10:49 AM To: Mark Nottingham Cc: ART Area ; Devon O'Brien Subject: Re: [art] On BCP 190 =20 On Wed, Jul 24, 2019 at 10:24 AM Mark Nottingham > wrote: > It's this part of BCP 190 Section 2.3 that is causing the issue: >=20 > > Specifying a fixed path relative to another (e.g., = {whatever}/myapp) > > is also bad practice (even if "whatever" is discovered as suggested > > in Section 3); while doing so might prevent collisions, it does = not > > avoid the potential for operational difficulties (for example, an > > implementation that prefers to use query processing instead, = because > > of implementation constraints). >=20 > To be clear, the "whatever" in this case is referred to as in CT, and is discovered via the known logs list = (https://www.certificate-transparency.org/known-logs) and browser CT = programs. Yes -- and this text should definitely be considered when revising 190. = Like I said, we've moved on a fair amount since then (although we still = have a ways to go).=20 One thing I'd like to see in a revision is a clearer separation between = "you're potentially harming others by doing this; don't do it" and = "you're potentially harming yourself by doing this; think carefully = before proceeding." =20 Which category to you think that paragraph of Section 2.3 (call it 2.3b) = belongs to? It sounds like it belongs to the "harming yourself" = category, which means that it's not actually protecting a commons. =20 And to be clear, even though 2.3b sounds advisory-only, it's this clause = at the top of Section 2.3 that has broader normative language: > specifications MUST NOT constrain, > or define the structure or the semantics for any path component. =20 a) that some people don't have access to .well-known on their servers -- = but this seems like a very poor argument for this particular use case. =20 Andrew Ayer presented one concrete case where the use of ..well-known = presented implementation difficulties for Google, a company that = presumably has full control over its servers. I don't know the details = of why, but I can guess: .well-known is dangerous. As a hosting = provider, allowing users to upload abritrary files to = /.well-known/acme-challenge means the users can get certificates for the = hosted domain name. Probably there are other security-relevant things = under /.well-known/. The safe and reasonable thing is to just block = access to /.well-known/. I would guess that Google's security team has = set a policy: All access to .well-known is blocked at the frontends = unless it's gone through a detailed review. =20 So we have advice in BCP 190 meant to ensure that protocols allow = implementers to implement any way they want (e.g. with query parameters = to represent semantics). But instead, the advice to require = /.well-known/ is creating practical barriers for implementers to = implement things in the way they want. =20 Also, if the reasoning for 2.3b is that implementers might only be able = to use query parameters, not paths, then specifying paths under = .well-known doesn't solve that problem at all. =20 Thanks, Jacob ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01D544D2.B654F660 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Although it might seem like = overkill, JSON HAL

https://tool= s.ietf.org/html/draft-kelly-json-hal-08

seems like it=E2=80=99s intended as a way of avoiding = having

the client do string-hacking = of URL paths

(EXCEPT processing = relative URLs and constructing
GET URLs on some kinds of form = submissions).

 

The use of / in the path of URLs was supposed = to

be restricted to hierarchical = data, and yet CT doesn=E2=80=99t
do that.

http://masinter.blogspot.com/2019/05/on-nature-of-hierarchical-u= rls.html

 

Now, why JSON-HAL is still an expired =C2=A0Internet = Draft

is a puzzle.

--

https://LarryMasinter.net =

 

 

From: art = <art-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Jacob = Hoffman-Andrews
Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2019 10:49 = AM
To: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
Cc: ART = Area <art@ietf.org>; Devon O'Brien = <devon.obrien@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [art] On BCP = 190

 

On = Wed, Jul 24, 2019 at 10:24 AM Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> = wrote:

> It's = this part of BCP 190 Section 2.3 that is causing the issue:
> =
> >  Specifying a fixed path relative to another (e.g., = {whatever}/myapp)
> >  is also bad practice (even if = "whatever" is discovered as suggested
> >  =  in Section 3); while doing so might prevent collisions, it does = not
> >   avoid the potential for operational = difficulties (for example, an
> >   implementation = that prefers to use query processing instead, because
> >  =  of implementation constraints).
>
> To be clear, the = "whatever" in this case is referred to as <log server> = in CT, and is discovered via the known logs list (https://www.certificate-transparency.org/known-logs= ) and browser CT programs.

Yes -- and this text should definitely = be considered when revising 190. Like I said, we've moved on a fair = amount since then (although we still have a ways to go).

One = thing I'd like to see in a revision is a clearer separation between = "you're potentially harming others by doing this; don't do it" = and "you're potentially harming yourself by doing this; think = carefully before proceeding."

 

Which category to you think that paragraph of Section = 2.3 (call it 2.3b) belongs to? It sounds like it belongs to the = "harming yourself" category, which means that it's not = actually protecting a commons.

 

And to be clear, even though 2.3b sounds = advisory-only, it's this clause at the top of Section 2.3 that has = broader normative language:

> specifications MUST NOT = constrain,

>   or = define the structure or the semantics for any path = component.

 

a) that = some people don't have access to .well-known on their servers -- but = this seems like a very poor argument for this particular use = case.

 

Andrew Ayer presented one concrete case where the use = of ..well-known presented implementation difficulties for Google, a = company that presumably has full control over its servers. I don't know = the details of why, but I can guess: .well-known is dangerous. As a = hosting provider, allowing users to upload abritrary files to = /.well-known/acme-challenge means the users can get certificates for the = hosted domain name. Probably there are other security-relevant things = under /.well-known/. The safe and reasonable thing is to just block = access to /.well-known/. I would guess that Google's security team has = set a policy: All access to .well-known is blocked at the frontends = unless it's gone through a detailed review.

 

So we have advice in BCP 190 meant to ensure that = protocols allow implementers to implement any way they want (e.g. with = query parameters to represent semantics). But instead, the advice to = require /.well-known/ is creating practical barriers for implementers to = implement things in the way they want.

 

Also, if the reasoning for 2.3b is that implementers = might only be able to use query parameters, not paths, then specifying = paths under .well-known doesn't solve that problem at = all.

 

Thanks,

Jacob

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01D544D2.B654F660-- From nobody Sun Jul 28 01:42:52 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 463411200E7 for ; Sun, 28 Jul 2019 01:42:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aV-rM8WgTTDE for ; Sun, 28 Jul 2019 01:42:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0EF841200E6 for ; Sun, 28 Jul 2019 01:42:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.110] (p548DCCB9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.185]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 45xGY21QTqzyjS; Sun, 28 Jul 2019 10:42:46 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <004601d5450d$62b33220$28199660$@acm.org> Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2019 10:42:45 +0200 Cc: ART Area X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 585996163.840426-adbbd4143cc04234e019a03462bd7e54 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3D4A1593-363D-45A9-B70F-D238E34B8685@tzi.org> References: <58BF6171-03BB-4F83-940F-3A101EFDD67F@mnot.net> <372FA049-7B33-4981-A0E0-41BD454CB770@mnot.net> <004601d5450d$62b33220$28199660$@acm.org> To: Larry Masinter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] On BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2019 08:42:50 -0000 On Jul 28, 2019, at 08:26, Larry Masinter wrote: >=20 > Now, why JSON-HAL is still an expired Internet Draft=20 > is a puzzle. (Slightly, but not completely off-topic:) Probably because there are multiple ways to skin this cat and we never = tried to converge on one. As a data point, for the applications in the CoRE working group, we have = mostly been able to avoid BCP190-style arguments by using /.well-known, = mainly because simple devices only tend to have one service offered = directly under / and because IoT device platforms tend to provide the = application developer full control over the URI space. = /.well-known/core provides a discovery mechanism for the entry point = URIs actually offered by a server. For where this is not enough, the WG has just last week adopted CoRAL = (not yet resubmitted as draft-ietf, so you can find it at = draft-hartke-t2trg-coral) as our idea of a hypermedia format like HAL. = Up to now, we tried to make everything work with RFC 6690 link format, = but that has too many idiosyncrasies that started to get in the way of a = long-term way forward. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Wed Jul 31 14:10:48 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EF5212001A for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 14:10:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=letsencrypt.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sbqqmufxNcFI for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 14:10:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x832.google.com (mail-qt1-x832.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::832]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A3D64120018 for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 14:10:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x832.google.com with SMTP id x22so63043588qtp.12 for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 14:10:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=letsencrypt.org; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=cFAS8vWtb8s/fm/dy/hbtf9uPIoBMA9QKCmpeqJ0Pp8=; b=AgIBs3RwhrxqER2qy9tYFh46nHMydykRR6wu4vOmE/EX/Mot/BAvbwt+9hFXBGgweB jK+ng3fXMJitT/ESH8/VWliAKQF0oKJxXkUuBh3ntL2d1ThdzwV02vr+uOckvV2j4bls 2mhrccYM+OhVZSWEDh/UUKdl3Ps4zjp+NOhew= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=cFAS8vWtb8s/fm/dy/hbtf9uPIoBMA9QKCmpeqJ0Pp8=; b=rLM0qKrR5bcvBaPn7fN+xvyDVq8KNAgd26frktE6PtkkMjgjAUQfSFS1fWerxMj6vA 66EA362ytY9brc8h0RYAVYmpoQSuo33UnL+w3FTT7vMwGBHJumoPpyEsTpQ+rfiSUZjG lvZkDwO1YRkTqE4ar6SuRLbMa3KQ0WhIb6iw7nd4k3D9+oAw00rH9W747Z00OgCG9bMe umcsyW4deGmrD3cMpMYwHOFSR8QhVrSK6vPhCE2HeYblsKgirDirSIJ9AgzZGnfG0Aj1 kD9culuoJW6pAPUsuKKzoNS8HVMpPnU6Qvv2u+UnwTEKTYhEz43SH48iH3An65R1johL Rovw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUQYooKafGTpuGx+U7G4pf0YlL/rD/pvPSRPwNDafWDPZe3GXj6 fsukcnWKf2kYXsUCNKP7W1ONnfxVp+opTKJ7b6je0Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqw/XzFPicSUTFXChn//pl1FSWTb9iV/KU6AunsBj3t37kNSJFo0u2/lrx9NQ8EUmqbGzKwd//kSXIh3r55RFTY= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:26d9:: with SMTP id 25mr89077927qtp.377.1564607443798; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 14:10:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <58BF6171-03BB-4F83-940F-3A101EFDD67F@mnot.net> <372FA049-7B33-4981-A0E0-41BD454CB770@mnot.net> <004601d5450d$62b33220$28199660$@acm.org> In-Reply-To: <004601d5450d$62b33220$28199660$@acm.org> From: Jacob Hoffman-Andrews Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 14:10:17 -0700 Message-ID: To: Larry Masinter Cc: Mark Nottingham , ART Area , "Devon O'Brien" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e69f61058f008e07" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] On BCP 190 X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 21:10:46 -0000 --000000000000e69f61058f008e07 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jul 27, 2019 at 11:26 PM Larry Masinter wrote: > The use of / in the path of URLs was supposed to > > be restricted to hierarchical data, and yet CT doesn=E2=80=99t > do that. > > http://masinter.blogspot.com/2019/05/on-nature-of-hierarchical-urls.html > CT and all prefix-using APIs do that, with a single level hierarchy. The domain owner specifies a prefix, ending with a "/". All of the URLs that are part of the API follow that prefix - they are subordinate in the hierarchy. Coming back to the main point: What remains in order to find consensus on this issue? Thanks, Jacob --000000000000e69f61058f008e07 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sat, Jul 27, 2019 at 11:26 PM Larry Ma= sinter <LMM@acm.org> wrote:

The use of / in the path of URLs was supposed = to

be restr= icted to hierarchical data, and yet CT doesn=E2=80=99t
do that.

http://masinter= .blogspot.com/2019/05/on-nature-of-hierarchical-urls.html


CT and all prefix-using A= PIs do that, with a single level hierarchy. The domain owner specifies a pr= efix, ending with a "/". All of the URLs that are part of the API= follow that prefix - they are subordinate in the hierarchy.

=
Coming back to the main point: What remains in order to find con= sensus on this issue?

Thanks,
Jacob
--000000000000e69f61058f008e07-- From nobody Wed Jul 31 23:52:12 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BFCA120058 for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 23:52:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U45Caj4XG8Dw for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 23:52:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x22e.google.com (mail-lj1-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1675A12004C for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 23:52:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x22e.google.com with SMTP id y17so43669663ljk.10 for ; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 23:52:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=U3ABFSO1hROmNvM7SQYa7kYuUP2ZtgJSRaOVdl9UCsY=; b=st9JGj+M+A0pciYkAEdbPwvXhpbnBVY7XmV6OuxSibqp9LD0RF6W1vkO4L+3DNDLVw MXys0PHSDjTmRv+QhRfyzb3pjfHJXDPeZ8YBKGIjBoiiTCtQUtZ7O5XJKR/S7+nOI2LP h21c3wKdTB//K9uyGkVydtqBAhFsjp/lsQiKTHDzA1aB+HbDnqpRZQWIpDMLCL+D7kBd CWIEXC4WyW1pYY7aKDh7bGELju4XXqxKzpKh2+YAvq4s2wzRq5SVhWaeTgjziz30PBum CjaSjs5iYESiKFblaPbMIiU4FGbFvsXvy0Tdl8wVESvMRc5vUvU4fNUGwEz7QmIV5ZfD cdmw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=U3ABFSO1hROmNvM7SQYa7kYuUP2ZtgJSRaOVdl9UCsY=; b=DqVfRldDw9C5oNWCAG3pfvbuFdeTLmTd+juOgImSU/QSPa3vGiD2zn/KhTZdJT0EwU mEwhKFX+SayRYgl5oT0dtfLPHeETDFku5obYrg8EuNYjBGedq7IcW+twi9KQ2iccClEl Wt1OgsQK2HJuom1R45RuwOeJCTkG+5HNZlIgcLZw91LghhUp4SIXSlsADLQUq86ofcPr v1CUWEQ3WNUF0ZXUJEbF9w6mvH/G/wS9POGRzgs+yhb5Hkyn1cCA+FO0VHBkoDshfF3n gqvZDNbT4+R81dlVVcAEvFrwPQ8C2tTOnaK2fylfADTeOtXxzCu5azTdjsT/HlptW/lA 9QlA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVFeSWpFFgw28hF2C3n7n8kxhuE1FyHBEZx5N7TolWHtK4tvJxB AEjo8JPSiI55G4V1Dwt7Hx6DByc5bxviVOsOfLU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwPYx+jpl3EaIfgbqbhLhU/l3X6dynbOoJAU8C3/fsIv2rem6Ax5g2vOFzqqBdsB9h3rlwOsAHBUVmx/wAw1ec= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:988b:: with SMTP id b11mr62407ljj.110.1564642327079; Wed, 31 Jul 2019 23:52:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 23:51:54 -0700 Message-ID: To: Alessandro Vesely Cc: "art@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001b2d15058f08ae12" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [art] Can now register draft-vesely-authmethod-dnswl? X-BeenThere: art@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2019 06:52:11 -0000 --0000000000001b2d15058f08ae12 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Just closing the loop here... On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 at 8:31 AM Alessandro Vesely wrote: > Now that rfc8601 allows that ptype, I'd like to register it at IANA, so as > to > avoid that those names could be used for different methods. I've updated > my > draft, in case it's needed: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vesely-authmethod-dnswl-08 > > > Would someone kindly suggest me how to proceed? > This is now getting attention in three contexts: - as an ISE submission - as an IANA action directly - in the DMARC working group -MSK --0000000000001b2d15058f08ae12 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just closing the loop here...
On Mon, = Jun 3, 2019 at 8:31 AM Alessandro Vesely <vesely@tana.it> wrote:
Now that rfc8601 allows that ptype, I'd like to regis= ter it at IANA, so as to
avoid that those names could be used for different methods.=C2=A0 I've = updated my
draft, in case it's needed:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vesely= -authmethod-dnswl-08


Would someone kindly suggest me how to proceed?

This is now getting attention in three contexts:

- as an ISE submission
- as an IANA action directly
- in the DMARC working group

-MSK
<= /div>
--0000000000001b2d15058f08ae12--