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From: der Mouse <mouse@Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA>
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X-Erik-Conspiracy: There is no Conspiracy - and if there were I wouldn't be
	part of it anyway.
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 12:32:37 -0400 (EDT)
To: asrg@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Asrg] Re: SPF abused by spammers
In-Reply-To: <1095690561.22022.49.camel@concorde.isode.net>
References: <16706.12881.679577.686447@world.std.com>
	<200409102325.i8ANPCP19518@panix5.panix.com>
	<16706.19961.920566.498294@world.std.com>
	<4142CBC5.7060707@astrum.ch>
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	<20040913231708.GB847@teal.hjp.at>
	<16711.23688.914358.677674@world.std.com>
	<20040914222012.GA19599@teal.hjp.at>
	<20040914235117.GB37562@Space.Net> <9GxWd3BJcDD@gmane.3247.org>
	<20040917145236.GA37562@Space.Net>
	<1095690561.22022.49.camel@concorde.isode.net>
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> [I]f the generators of notifications always used a standard format
> (which should be processed by the UA in attempt to correlate the
> notification with a sent message [...]), then [...]

> <grumble>
> But the reality is that every email processing vendor seems to invent
> their own format for bounces, which means that automatic processing
> is not possible.

There's RFC 3462, defining multipart/report, and every time I get a
bounce for a message I didn't send which isn't multipart/report, I send
a reply asking them to please generate multipart/report bounces so they
can be mechanically recognized as bounces and processed accordingly.
(Bounces for messages I didn't send which _are_ multipart/report
generally get refused automatically.)

Repeat offenders get blocked, though only a few sites have made it to
that point so far.

/~\ The ASCII				der Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML	       mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

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Is an ASRG meeting planned for the 61st IETF in Washington?

-Jim


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From asrg-bounces@ietf.org  Fri Oct  8 20:27:51 2004
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From: "Hallam-Baker, Phillip" <pbaker@verisign.com>
To: "'Jim Fenton'" <fenton@cisco.com>, asrg@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Asrg] ASRG meeting at next IETF?
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 17:13:30 -0700 
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Better make sure the secretariat know not to schedule ASRG or MASS at the
same time as the FTC workshop which is where most of the spam and phishing
people will be.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Fenton [mailto:fenton@cisco.com]
> Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 4:22 PM
> To: asrg@ietf.org
> Subject: [Asrg] ASRG meeting at next IETF?
> 
> 
> Is an ASRG meeting planned for the 61st IETF in Washington?
> 
> -Jim
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Asrg mailing list
> Asrg@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/asrg
> 

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Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 17:22:27 -0700
To: "Hallam-Baker, Phillip" <pbaker@verisign.com>, asrg@ietf.org
From: Jim Fenton <fenton@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: [Asrg] ASRG meeting at next IETF?
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I have reminded the new MASS co-chairs of this.

-Jim

At 05:13 PM 10/8/2004 -0700, Hallam-Baker, Phillip wrote:
>Better make sure the secretariat know not to schedule ASRG or MASS at the
>same time as the FTC workshop which is where most of the spam and phishing
>people will be.


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To: "Hallam-Baker, Phillip" <pbaker@verisign.com>
Subject: RE: [Asrg] ASRG meeting at next IETF?
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On that point, when exactly is that workshop (including exact time)?
And do I need to have an invitation to come or is it free to all 
interested parties?

On Fri, 8 Oct 2004, Hallam-Baker, Phillip wrote:

> Better make sure the secretariat know not to schedule ASRG or MASS at the
> same time as the FTC workshop which is where most of the spam and phishing
> people will be.
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jim Fenton [mailto:fenton@cisco.com]
> > Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 4:22 PM
> > To: asrg@ietf.org
> > Subject: [Asrg] ASRG meeting at next IETF?
> > 
> > 
> > Is an ASRG meeting planned for the 61st IETF in Washington?
> > 
> > -Jim
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Asrg mailing list
> > Asrg@ietf.org
> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/asrg
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Asrg mailing list
> Asrg@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/asrg


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Subject: RE: [Asrg] ASRG meeting at next IETF?
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http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2004/09/emailauth.htm

Get there real early.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: william(at)elan.net [mailto:william@elan.net]
> Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 8:47 PM
> To: Hallam-Baker, Phillip
> Cc: 'Jim Fenton'; asrg@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Asrg] ASRG meeting at next IETF?
> 
> 
> 
> On that point, when exactly is that workshop (including exact time)?
> And do I need to have an invitation to come or is it free to all 
> interested parties?
> 
> On Fri, 8 Oct 2004, Hallam-Baker, Phillip wrote:
> 
> > Better make sure the secretariat know not to schedule ASRG 
> or MASS at the
> > same time as the FTC workshop which is where most of the 
> spam and phishing
> > people will be.
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Jim Fenton [mailto:fenton@cisco.com]
> > > Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 4:22 PM
> > > To: asrg@ietf.org
> > > Subject: [Asrg] ASRG meeting at next IETF?
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Is an ASRG meeting planned for the 61st IETF in Washington?
> > > 
> > > -Jim
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Asrg mailing list
> > > Asrg@ietf.org
> > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/asrg
> > > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Asrg mailing list
> > Asrg@ietf.org
> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/asrg
> 

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From asrg-bounces@ietf.org  Sat Oct  9 03:30:14 2004
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From: John Levine <asrg@johnlevine.com>
To: asrg@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Asrg] ASRG meeting at next IETF?
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>On that point, when exactly is that workshop (including exact time)?
>And do I need to have an invitation to come or is it free to all 
>interested parties?

It's all day Tues and Weds.  Anyone can come and sit in the audience.
They haven't sent out the invitations to speakers yet but they say
they'll be out by the 15th.

The FTC is at 600 Pennsylvania Ave, about a 10 minute cab ride from
the Hilton.

To answer the original schedule, I've asked for an ASRG session but I
haven't heard back yet.  I told them that Mon or Thu was vastly
preferable to Tue or Wed.  I shoulda told the FTC to have their
meeting Thu and Fri.


-- 
John R. Levine, IECC, POB 727, Trumansburg NY 14886 +1 607 330 5711
johnl@iecc.com, Mayor, http://johnlevine.com, 
Member, Provisional board, Coalition Against Unsolicited Commercial E-mail

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At 05:46 PM 10/8/2004 -0700, william(at)elan.net wrote:

>On that point, when exactly is that workshop (including exact time)?
>And do I need to have an invitation to come or is it free to all=20
>interested parties?

 From the Federal Register announcement:

>DATES: The Email Authentication
>Summit will be held on November 9=9610,
>2004, from 8:30 a.m. to 5:30 p.m. at the
>Federal Trade Commission, Satellite
>Building, 601 New Jersey Ave., NW.,
>Washington, DC 20001. The event is
>open to the public, and there is no fee
>for attendance. Pre-registration is not
>required.



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On Sep 14, 2004, at 18:18, Barry Shein wrote:
> On September 14, 2004 at 15:31 Damon.Sauer@BELLSOUTH.COM (Sauer, 
> Damon) wrote:
>> And SPF does nothing to identify spam- ONLY to validate the sending
>> domain to an IP address. That's it. No more.
>> This is only one piece of the puzzle but a necessary one. More are
>> needed in the fight against spam.
>
> Why is it necessary?
>
> It's amazing how many times this idea is disabused but people will
> shamelessly stand up and make these vague and mysterious claims, like
> used car salesmen...

I'm with Barry on this one.

SPF achieves one thing, and one thing only: it stops me being 
joe-jobbed. (Or rather, it will once deployed everywhere.)

Now, that's all very fine and a welcome development, but it ain't gonna 
stop spam.

The SPF proponents say "Ah, but now we'll be able to greylist messages, 
and ISPs will be able to rate-limit their customers". Well, 
whoop-de-do, because you can already greylist messages and check the 
existing RBL mechanism, and ISPs could already be rate-limiting their 
customers' outgoing port 25 connections if they actually gave a crap.

If someone can actually give a plausible mechanism by which SPF will do 
more than protect me from joe jobs, one which doesn't rely on an 
outbreak of mass responsibility and competence amongst ISPs, then I'll 
be happy to change my opinion. Until then, I see SPF as something which 
has been massively overhyped.


mathew


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From: Michael Argast <Michael.Argast@sophos.com>
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Subject: [Asrg] I am out of the office, relocating to Sophos UK.
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I will be out of the office starting  10/08/2004 and will not return until
10/18/2004.

I am in the midst of relocating to Sophos UK. I expect to be in the UK
office commencing October 18th. I will return any directed inquiries at
that time.

If your inquiry involves the Vancouver Sales Engineering organization,
please feel free to forward any questions, etc, to Mark Attisha at:

mark.attisha@sophos.com
604-484-6830


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From: "George Ou" <george_ou@netzero.com>
To: "'mathew'" <meta@pobox.com>, <asrg@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [Asrg] Re: SPF abused by spammers
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 13:05:50 -0700
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-----Original Message-----
From: asrg-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:asrg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
mathew
Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 7:54 AM
To: asrg@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Asrg] Re: SPF abused by spammers

If someone can actually give a plausible mechanism by which SPF will do more
than protect me from joe jobs, one which doesn't rely on an outbreak of mass
responsibility and competence amongst ISPs, then I'll be happy to change my
opinion. Until then, I see SPF as something which has been massively
overhyped.


mathew


Existing RBL mechanisms are no where near as practical to implement.

George


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From asrg-bounces@ietf.org  Sat Oct  9 19:27:54 2004
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mathew wrote:

> If someone can actually give a plausible mechanism by which
> SPF will do more than protect me from joe jobs, one which
> doesn't rely on an outbreak of mass responsibility and
> competence amongst ISPs, then I'll be happy to change my
> opinion.

Have you considered C/R systems in conjuction with SPF ?  At
the moment C/R systems are IMO clear on the side of net abuse,
if they're not massively protected by spam filters.  With SPF
C/R systems would be again "only" annoying (that's below the
level of net abuse in my terminology).

> I see SPF as something which has been massively overhyped.

True.  It's just an implementation of RMX working today in the
real world.  With SPF something like RfC 3834 makes sense.

And it's certainly better than CAN-SPAM, RfC 3865, opt-out, or
Sender-ID, if you reduce SPF to an "anti spam" strategy.  Which
it's clearly not.  SPF only fixes a blatant hole in SMTP, the
"forward to 3rd party" hack.  On the same level as the %-hack,
or as blocking open relays.
                            Bye, Frank



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From asrg-bounces@ietf.org  Sun Oct 10 03:02:32 2004
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Subject: RE: [Asrg] ASRG meeting at next IETF?
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Thanks.

Too bad its taking entire two days. I'd really have preferred to be able=20
to come to more IETF WG sessions. Whoever was sceduling this workshop
really should have checked and realized such an important conflict.

On Sat, 9 Oct 2004, Jim Fenton wrote:

> At 05:46 PM 10/8/2004 -0700, william(at)elan.net wrote:
>=20
> >On that point, when exactly is that workshop (including exact time)?
> >And do I need to have an invitation to come or is it free to all=20
> >interested parties?
>=20
>  From the Federal Register announcement:
>=20
> >DATES: The Email Authentication
> >Summit will be held on November 9=9610,
> >2004, from 8:30 a.m. to 5:30 p.m. at the
> >Federal Trade Commission, Satellite
> >Building, 601 New Jersey Ave., NW.,
> >Washington, DC 20001. The event is
> >open to the public, and there is no fee
> >for attendance. Pre-registration is not
> >required.


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From asrg-bounces@ietf.org  Sat Oct 16 01:18:21 2004
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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 22:09:52 -0700
From: Philip Miller <millenix@zemos.net>
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Subject: [Asrg] Filtering Header Draft Discussion
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Hello, all!

I have a few days of relative free time, of which I plan to spend a fair portion reviewing 
and revising the draft. The current version can be found at
<http://millenix.zemos.net/asrg-filtering/>
in xml2rfc source, HTML, and TXT formats. The Subversion repository with the XML source 
can be found at
<http://millenix.zemos.net/repos/filtering/>

In particular need of work are the definitions of the fields that will be standardized in 
format. Proposals on how various types of scores should be expressed are much desired

I'd like to talk to anyone who has comments on this in realtime at some point in the next 
4 days. I'll try to be online in the ASRG jabber channel as much as possible, but 
afternoon to evening of tomorrow (Oct. 16th) and Oct. 19th would be best. If you can't or 
don't want to discuss this in Jabber, but have thoughts, please email them to the 
Filtering Subgroup list.

Philip Miller

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From asrg-bounces@ietf.org  Sat Oct 16 01:47:04 2004
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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 22:50:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: William Leibzon <william@completewhois.com>
To: Philip Miller <millenix@zemos.net>
Subject: Re: [Asrg] Filtering Header Draft Discussion
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On Fri, 15 Oct 2004, Philip Miller wrote:

> Hello, all!
>
> I have a few days of relative free time, of which I plan to spend a fair 
> portion reviewing and revising the draft. The current version can be found at
> <http://millenix.zemos.net/asrg-filtering/>
> in xml2rfc source, HTML, and TXT formats. The Subversion repository with the 
> XML source can be found at
> <http://millenix.zemos.net/repos/filtering/>
>
> In particular need of work are the definitions of the fields that will be 
> standardized in format. Proposals on how various types of scores should be 
> expressed are much desired
>
> I'd like to talk to anyone who has comments on this in realtime at some point 
> in the next 4 days. I'll try to be online in the ASRG jabber channel as much 
> as possible, but afternoon to evening of tomorrow (Oct. 16th) and Oct. 19th 
> would be best. If you can't or don't want to discuss this in Jabber, but have 
> thoughts, please email them to the Filtering Subgroup list.

Can I request that "Processed:" header name be changed to something else?
Otherwise it maybe confused with Processed-By header that I'll be
introducing in the draft I'll be introducing in two days. In that draft
Processed-By header is used as trace header for forwarding systems as
details in brief at:
   http://www.imc.org/ietf-mxcomp/mail-archive/msg05160.html

As far as everything else I'll comment on it when I had time to fully
read the draft, but I think there would be quite a few comments ...

---
William Leibzon
  mailto: william@completewhois.com
Anti-Spam and Email Security Research Worksite:
  http://www.elan.net/~william/emailsecurity/
Network Investigation Tools:
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From asrg-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Oct 18 19:17:44 2004
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Subject: [Asrg] a plea for more hierarchy in DNS
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We plan to widely implement greylisting.
For that we want to establish a whitelist of "wellknown" mailservers
to reduce the inpact and spare some useless rejections and time delays.

To build an initial list and to not be *that* dependant on IP addresses
we took some logfiles worth of some million connections and eliminated
all the obvious
    dyn-83-157-187-223.ppp.tiscali.fr [83.157.187.223]
    200-140-011-028.bsace705.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.140.11.28]
    dsl-201-129-15-54.prod-infinitum.com.mx [201.129.15.54]
    [ ... ]
stuff.

However we noticed that even mailserver farms are named as braindamaged
and hierarchy breaking as the example above. Why does it have to be
    mail-[0-9][0-9].iinet.net.au
instead of
    host[0-9][09-].mail.iinet.net.au

Or
    outfbmx___.isp.belgacom.be
    mail-relay_.ubc.ca
    mx_.uniserve.ca
    mx__.bluewin.ch
    cernmx__.cern.ch
    mta-_s-be-__.sunrise.ch
    mail-store-____.amazon.com
    smtp-out-____.amazon.com
    mail-out_.apple.com
    sj-iport-_-in.cisco.com
    cnnimail__.cnn.com
    siaag___.compuserve.com
    mxpool__.ebay.com
    mxsmfpool__.ebay.com
    fmr__.intel.com
    mail__.messagelabs.com
    inet-mail_.oracle.com
    exprod6mo_.postini.com
this list is endless and even companies that are deeply involved in the
Internet and eMail services and that use the Internet for ages seem to
not know how to do it right.

It would be more correct and so much easier to anti-greylist
    .mail.domain.tld
instead of adding 20 records
    mail-smtp-01.domainl.tld
    ...
    mail-smtp-20.domainl.tld

Why do they all flaten or reverse the RtoL hierarchy idea of the DNS as
soon as it reaches their own administration?
*sigh*

	\Maex

P.S. Yes, I am fully aware of the security implications caused by trusting
     information derived from a reverse DNS lookup.

-- 
SpaceNet AG            | Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 | Fon: +49 (89) 32356-0
Research & Development |       D-80807 Muenchen    | Fax: +49 (89) 32356-299
"The security, stability and reliability of a computer system is reciprocally
 proportional to the amount of vacuity between the ears of the admin"

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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 09:25:33 +0200
From: Jochen Topf <jochen@remote.org>
To: Markus Stumpf <maex-lists-spam-ietf-asrg@Space.Net>
Subject: Re: [Asrg] a plea for more hierarchy in DNS
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On Tue, Oct 19, 2004 at 12:40:44AM +0200, Markus Stumpf wrote:
> However we noticed that even mailserver farms are named as braindamaged
> and hierarchy breaking as the example above. Why does it have to be
>     mail-[0-9][0-9].iinet.net.au
> instead of
>     host[0-9][09-].mail.iinet.net.au

Because when you are an admin inside the organisation you'll use only
the hostname and not the FQDN most of the time. And you don't want to
ask yourself all the time whether "host165" is "host165.mail" or
"host165.web" or whatever (which depends on how your resolver is configured).

Jochen
-- 
Jochen Topf  jochen@remote.org  http://www.remote.org/jochen/  +49-721-388298


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Markus Stumpf schrieb:

> For that we want to establish a whitelist of "wellknown" mailservers
> to reduce the inpact and spare some useless rejections and time delays.

Not (only) for greylisting, but for general spam filter at a financial 
services company, I tried to initiate a DNS-based whitelist. I did not 
advance this idea further, but would be glad to participate in such an 
effort.

A very rough start is at http://matthias.leisi.net/dnswl/

Maybe the ASRG list is not the appropriate place to discuss, so maybe we 
can discuss it off list.

-- Matthias

-- 
Brain-Log                               http://matthias.leisi.net/

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From asrg-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Oct 19 22:53:46 2004
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From: Markus Stumpf <maex-lists-spam-ietf-asrg@Space.Net>
To: ASRG <asrg@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Asrg] a plea for more hierarchy in DNS
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On Tue, Oct 19, 2004 at 09:25:33AM +0200, Jochen Topf wrote:
> Because when you are an admin inside the organisation you'll use only
> the hostname and not the FQDN most of the time. And you don't want to
> ask yourself all the time whether "host165" is "host165.mail" or
> "host165.web" or whatever (which depends on how your resolver is configured).

Exactly what is the difference between typing
    smtp-out-185
and
    185.smtp-out
Even the nummer of characters is the same.

And if you have a farm of mailservers or webserver which is used for
loadbalancing and you have to log in to those all the time you're
doing something wrong in principle.
And if an "admin" can't configure the prompt or window title or anything
else well enough that he can work with it and know where he is that is
not the problem of the rest of the Internet.
And if an "admin" doesn't know how to use CNAMEs or maybe even how to do
split DNS for his convenience it is quite a miserable admin.

If an "admin" cannot handle this he should probably talk to the people
at AOL or Yahoo or getit or many others that know how to do it right:
    imo-___.mx.aol.com
    lsvsm-m__.elist.aol.com
    web____.mail.in.yahoo.com
    ____.bulk.scd.yahoo.com
    nl__.mx.getit.de
or even gmail that uses about 10 different hosts, but they all have
the same name externally. This must be the horror for an admin, all
hosts with the same name.

	\Maex

-- 
SpaceNet AG            | Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 | Fon: +49 (89) 32356-0
Research & Development |       D-80807 Muenchen    | Fax: +49 (89) 32356-299
"The security, stability and reliability of a computer system is reciprocally
 proportional to the amount of vacuity between the ears of the admin"

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From asrg-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Oct 21 08:50:41 2004
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Subject: Re: [Asrg] Filtering Header Draft Discussion
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I'm not convinced, from first brief reading, what the benefit of all this
is.

"X-" exists to permit non-standard headers. Most users of "X-" use them for
either conveying proprietery information or for making a human readable
trace.

If there is a need for general interoperability around a topic proposing a
new header is not necessarily the most important step.

I don't get a clear and unambigous statement of requirements or
specifiaction for this functionality.

Don't get me wrong, I haven't had time to fully digest it, but on first
reading it seems to have a very large scope and it responds with a proposal
which is not currently supported by anyone.

d.



|---------+---------------------------->
|         |           Philip Miller    |
|         |           <millenix@zemos.n|
|         |           et>              |
|         |           Sent by:         |
|         |           asrg-bounces@ietf|
|         |           .org             |
|         |                            |
|         |                            |
|         |           16/10/2004 06:09 |
|         |           AM               |
|         |                            |
|---------+---------------------------->
  >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
  |                                                                                                               |
  |       To:       ASRG - Filtering Subgroup <filtering@asrg.sp.am>, ASRG <asrg@ietf.org>                        |
  |       cc:                                                                                                     |
  |       Subject:  [Asrg] Filtering Header Draft Discussion                                                      |
  >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|




Hello, all!

I have a few days of relative free time, of which I plan to spend a fair
portion reviewing
and revising the draft. The current version can be found at
<http://millenix.zemos.net/asrg-filtering/>
in xml2rfc source, HTML, and TXT formats. The Subversion repository with
the XML source
can be found at
<http://millenix.zemos.net/repos/filtering/>

In particular need of work are the definitions of the fields that will be
standardized in
format. Proposals on how various types of scores should be expressed are
much desired

I'd like to talk to anyone who has comments on this in realtime at some
point in the next
4 days. I'll try to be online in the ASRG jabber channel as much as
possible, but
afternoon to evening of tomorrow (Oct. 16th) and Oct. 19th would be best.
If you can't or
don't want to discuss this in Jabber, but have thoughts, please email them
to the
Filtering Subgroup list.

Philip Miller

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Subject: [Asrg] Re: A plea for more hierarchy in DNS
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On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 19:21:32 +0200, Markus Stumpf wrote:
>
> Exactly what is the difference between typing
>     smtp-out-185
> and
>     185.smtp-out
> Even the nummer of characters is the same.
>
and
>If an "admin" cannot handle this he should probably talk to the people
>at AOL or Yahoo or getit or many others that know how to do it right:
>    imo-___.mx.aol.com
>    lsvsm-m__.elist.aol.com
>    web____.mail.in.yahoo.com
>    ____.bulk.scd.yahoo.com
>    nl__.mx.getit.de

Markus, I'm in complete agreement with you; ISPs should corral all their
official mailservers under special subdomains.  However, Jochen appears to
be pointing out a significant disadvantage -- that, absent some
specification, ISPs have implemented their own internal methods of
determining official mailservers, and that they aren't going to change
without a significant reason to do so.  For example, Cox Cable (a big ISP
here in the USA) names its mailservers counter to your scheme, and neither
you nor I alone will prevail upon them to change.

For the counter position to be implemented, list matches have to be done
using regular expressions individualized to the ISP, which, while more
powerful, is time-consumptive.  I like your idea of using less powerful
natural breakpoints (the dots) in the name syntax to help the matching be
done at a lower cost.  As a side effect of your proposal, the techie in
charge of the mailserver does not have to know regular expression syntax
-- your wildcards all start with a dot, and comprise an entire subdomain. 
Your method allows wildcarding to be implemented as substringing.

For example, if you want to know that an aol.com mailserver is "official",
you pattern match its reverse dns to .mx.aol.com or .elist.aol.com.  If
the mail you are scanning is emitted from .ipt.aol.com (aol's customer
domain, and the origin of many Korean spam attacks), you know that the
mailserver is not "official", and you can do what you want.  By the way,
.mx is Mexico, so whatever pattern matching you do, you can't do it on the
root domain.

By the way, my milter implementation of this allows a full domain to match
a wildcard (if the domain fails by substringing based on dot) by adding a
dot to the front of the domain and running an exact-match test.  This
allows people whose DNS is provided by their registrar to not have to
implement DNS themselves until they've grown up a bit, yet to prepare for
it in the milter.  Of course, I myself am small fry and don't have
subdomains (yet).

As a side effect of this discussion, I'm wondering if Caller ID or any of
the other DNS extensions proposed by major vendors make any sense;
protocol changes which require no new software always are preferable to
those that do.  I'm at the end of a DSL line, and my vendor advertises
that it allows everything inbound/outbound, which is really what the
standard SOHO user wants.  To that end, my vendor reverse-DNS's my IP
address, and will probably Caller ID it as well if that becomes the
standard.

Douglas Campbell
doug.campbell@cantspam.us

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On Thu, Oct 21, 2004, Douglas Campbell wrote:

> Markus, I'm in complete agreement with you; ISPs should corral all their
> official mailservers under special subdomains.  However, Jochen appears to

Wouldn't it be simpler to support MTAmark instead of some naming
scheme? Maybe an organization has some guidelines it needs/wants
to follow for naming hosts; MTAmark wouldn't interfere with that
but still allows others to find out whether a system is supposed
to send mail.

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Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 12:57:25 +1000
From: Laird Breyer <laird@lbreyer.com>
To: Danny Angus <Danny_Angus@slc.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Asrg] Filtering Header Draft Discussion
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Danny,

> If there is a need for general interoperability around a topic proposing a
> new header is not necessarily the most important step.

The document is a work in progress, which is attempting to summarize a number
of discussions which were had on the filtering list several months ago. 
Rather than present a finished document for discussion, the revisions are
being announced on the list to give people an opportunity to criticise it early.

Any thoughts you have on it, or on what you think general interoperability should
mean, are worth posting to the list. 
 
> I don't get a clear and unambigous statement of requirements or
> specifiaction for this functionality.

Currently, the document has had a few people adding bits in several places, 
so it's a bit out of focus. One of the authors is currently streamlining
it to improve the focus, and a more readable copy should be available 
in the next few days. 

Please don't hesitate to post your thoughts on areas which are confusing or
seem out of touch. They may well be, but someone (you :-) needs to point it out.

Roughly speaking, there are two interrelated ideas. The first idea is
that a common header for filtering results, with key/value pairs 
will allow any software to read the output of any compliant filter. 
Some of the key/value pairs must have universal meanings, while other
pairs can be filter-specific. This removes the need for custom, filter specific
parsing of headers.

The other idea is that if different software ("downstream") can look at headers
added earlier in the message lifetime ("upstream"), then there are data 
integrity and trust issues which must be addressed, resulting in formalized
rules such as e.g.: "write a single header for each filter, not two or three
which must be combined to be meaningful".


On Oct 21 2004, Danny Angus wrote:
> I'm not convinced, from first brief reading, what the benefit of all this
> is.
> 
> "X-" exists to permit non-standard headers. Most users of "X-" use them for
> either conveying proprietery information or for making a human readable
> trace.
> 
> If there is a need for general interoperability around a topic proposing a
> new header is not necessarily the most important step.
> 
> I don't get a clear and unambigous statement of requirements or
> specifiaction for this functionality.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I haven't had time to fully digest it, but on first
> reading it seems to have a very large scope and it responds with a proposal
> which is not currently supported by anyone.
> 
> d.

-- 
Laird Breyer.

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From: Jim Whitescarver <jim@xanthus.net>
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Subject: [Asrg] Collaborative real time spam blocking
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Greetings,

I do not know if this is the correct forum to address this issue.  
Please let me know if these issues are being addressed elsewhere.  What 
I am seeking is a means for coordinating a grass roots trust network for 
aggressive dynamic blocking of spammer IP addresses.    While there are 
many blacklists out there, they do not provide for mechanisms to 
facilitate real time blocking.  Standards are needed for collaborative 
blocking,  incident reporting and verification.  Spammers move to 
quickly for traditional blacklisting approaches be effective.

My experience blocking spam over the last month suggests that a 
collaborative dynamic approach could be quite effective.  It is 
remarkable what I am able to achieve all by myself.  It seems clear to 
me that  collaboratively we could actually end the spam problem.

With the exponential growth of spam, filtering it is not enough.  The 
spam processing on our email server overloaded the machine to the point 
where it was forced to reboot several times a day.  While our policy of 
discarding invalid addresses rather than rejecting them exasperated the 
problem in our case, it will not be very long, given the growth rate of 
spam, before all email servers on the Internet have to face a similar 
day of recconning.

For just over a month I have waged a personal war against spam.   On a 
single machine with less than 500 email accounts I have identified just 
about 200,000 spam emails from about 60,000 individual IP addresses 
defining about 3000 IP groups (of 256) having 3 or more spammer IP 
addresses.  I am rejecting a total of about 750,000 IP addresses.

All the 'experts' tell me black lists don't work any more because spammers are moving too fast and there are too many of them.  There is no simple solution but I believe an agreesive, combined, scalable, collaborative grass roots approach can work.


While I have succeeded in significantly reducing the spam load on the 
machine, I cannot alone stop spam in a timely manner or  impact the spam 
problem in general.  Every day I identify about 1500 new spammer IP 
addresses.  In many cases I block them immediately after receiving just 
one spam.  This prevents getting hundreds of spams from each address.

The trick is to identify a spammer IP as soon as possible and block it 
as soon as possible.  If this was done widely, the spammers would be out 
of business.    The system must agressively  identify and block 
spammers, but it also must be forgiving and heal as spammers move around 
the net.  If the incentives are there for Internet service providers to 
enforce anti-spam policies to avoid being blocked, and timely blocking 
can significantly reduce the profits from spamming, spam can be stopped.

Spam me once, shame on you!  Spam me twice, shame on me!

Trust networks are needed to avoid malicious blocking.  Participants 
should be able to negotiate the degree of  confirmation desired before 
blocking and choose trusted  and untrusted sources.  There need to be 
mechanisms for sharing black lists, whitelists, incidents, reprieve 
requests.  This should work on a grass roots level without any  central 
authority.  It can include standards for DNSBL services but will require 
additional web services.  It may also suggest extensions to the header 
standards.  It would also be useful to have a means of summarizing spam 
incidents by IP or group in terms of time frame, number of incidents, 
number of email addresses, and perhaps confidence.

In the remainder of this email  I provide additional details of how my 
system is working at present in anticipation of questions some of you 
may have.  You can see the system working in almost real time at:
http://Xanthus.Net/spam.cgi

I also introduce the use of "honey pot" email addresses for spam 
identification, which is an idea I have not seem elsewhere.  However, I 
don't see this as a standards issue at this point, but you may read on 
if you are interested.

Please let me know if there are any relevant activities in Collaborative 
real time spam blocking standards activities.

Thanks,

Jim
-------------------------------------------------------------
Notes on  my current spam blocking activities:
http://Xanthus.Net/spam.cgi

Rapid spam identification is essential for dynamic blocking to be 
effective.  The primary method is what I call "honey pot" email 
addresses mined from the mail logs.  These are non-existent users or 
accounts that have been out of use for many years.  I have collected 
thousands of these as our providers default policy was to not return 
them as undeliverable.  Most were invented by worms or spammers and 
forged from addresses that were subsequently harvested.

Since these users do not exist, they cannot solicit any email.  Any 
email to these addresses is considered unsolicited and the address of 
the SMTP host is blocked.   Spam filtering tools may be used to 
automatically confirm the spam nature of these emails before 
automatically blocking for accounts that might conceivably get a valid 
email.

A second  source is users IMAP folders named SpamBlock.  They save 
emails there to prevent future emails for them or other users.  
SpamBlock folders are processed every few minutes.   Those who use a 
SpamBlock folder must use it responsibly to insure they don't block 
anybody legit. A secondary spam filter could help avoid errors here as 
well.

I check a whitelist and then just add a REJECT to the access database 
for SENDMAIL.  Periodically I add REJECTs for IP groups of 256 with 
three or more spammer IP addresses.

In a month I've only had three user complaints, one that was due to my 
neglecting to put hotmail.com on my whitelist, the other  two due to 
users who filed non-spam emails in their SpamBlock folders.  There is no 
painless way to solve the spam problem. I believe that dealing with 
wrongly blocked addresses is the price we must pay if we really want to 
stop spam.  Affirmative action against spam means guilty until proven 
innocent, but we can be very forgiving, at least on fist offenses.

I realize this is a tough policy, but it is what is needed, I think, to 
stop the exponential growth of spam.  It is dynamic, so that with enough 
participants, spam could be stopped no matter how fast the spammers 
move.  Spamming would become unprofitable and ISP would be motivated to 
enforce anti-spam policies.

I also forgive individual IP addresses after 10 days or so, I may change 
that.  Many seem to never spam again, while others repeat 
periodically.   I do not forgive those with repeated incidents to 
multiple email addresses yet.   I will give them another chance to be 
good sooner or later.

I think a combination of approaches is needed to fight spam.  My 
approach is best suited for blocking the new spambots and spammer 
sites.   If widely employed it could have a major impact on the industry.

There is much more I want to do. 

I want to add auto real time reporting of spammers also.  The standards 
can be important here so I am happy to see an ASRG group in that area.   
I see some similarities in some of the desired functionality that might 
also be employed in supporting dynamic collaborative blocking.

It has been suggested that my lists can be compressed greatly using CIDR 
notation for firewall rules.  That could also allow much greater 
selectivity and effectiveness in IP group blocking using powers of two 
group sizes.   And CIDR would be the preferred format according to our 
Internet provider.   Let me know if you know of any tools that could 
help automate this.

I am not sure how much further I'll get in my own personal war against 
spam, I need to find a way to support my efforts...  In the mean time 
let me know if you see any potential collaboration.

Thanks,

Jim Whitescarver
jim@xanthus.net
973-643-0920

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Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 01:00:59 +0530
From: Devdas Bhagat <devdas@dvb.homelinux.org>
To: ASRG <asrg@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Asrg] Collaborative real time spam blocking
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On 22/10/04 14:28 -0400, Jim Whitescarver wrote:
> Greetings,
> 
> I do not know if this is the correct forum to address this issue.  
> Please let me know if these issues are being addressed elsewhere.  What 
> I am seeking is a means for coordinating a grass roots trust network for 
> aggressive dynamic blocking of spammer IP addresses.    While there are 

The best idea I have seen for this is a PGP/GPG signed post to usenet.

<snip>
> 
> All the 'experts' tell me black lists don't work any more because
> spammers are moving too fast and there are too many of them.  There is
> no simple solution but I believe an agreesive, combined, scalable,
> collaborative grass roots approach can work.

DNSBLs work. They just shouldn't be your only filters. Validating email
addresses, both syntactically and against lists of legitimate recipients,
checking for helo content, matching DNS (forward/reverse with regular 
expressions), DNSBLs, sender verification.....

> 
> While I have succeeded in significantly reducing the spam load on the 
> machine, I cannot alone stop spam in a timely manner or  impact the spam 
> problem in general.  Every day I identify about 1500 new spammer IP 
> addresses.  In many cases I block them immediately after receiving just 
> one spam.  This prevents getting hundreds of spams from each address.

Nice. Join the club.
 
> The trick is to identify a spammer IP as soon as possible and block it 
> as soon as possible.  If this was done widely, the spammers would be out 
> of business.    The system must agressively  identify and block 
> spammers, but it also must be forgiving and heal as spammers move around 
> the net.  If the incentives are there for Internet service providers to 
> enforce anti-spam policies to avoid being blocked, and timely blocking 
> can significantly reduce the profits from spamming, spam can be stopped.

The trick is to identify the spammer IP.

> Spam me once, shame on you!  Spam me twice, shame on me!
> 
> Trust networks are needed to avoid malicious blocking.  Participants 
> should be able to negotiate the degree of  confirmation desired before 
> blocking and choose trusted  and untrusted sources.  There need to be 

Why? I choose which DNSBLs to trust, and which not to. Any DNSBL user
needs to do that.

<snip>

> I also introduce the use of "honey pot" email addresses for spam 
> identification, which is an idea I have not seem elsewhere.  However, I 
> don't see this as a standards issue at this point, but you may read on 
> if you are interested.

In email related activities, these are known as spamtraps.

Devdas Bhagat

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From: Markus Stumpf <maex-lists-spam-ietf-asrg@Space.Net>
To: Jim Whitescarver <jim@xanthus.net>
Subject: Re: [Asrg] Collaborative real time spam blocking
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On Fri, Oct 22, 2004 at 02:28:06PM -0400, Jim Whitescarver wrote:
> Trust networks are needed to avoid malicious blocking.  Participants 
> should be able to negotiate the degree of  confirmation desired before 
> blocking and choose trusted  and untrusted sources.  There need to be 
> mechanisms for sharing black lists, whitelists, incidents, reprieve 
> requests.

This is one of the ideas of DNS-MTAMARK. In reverse DNS mark a IP as a
designated mailserver.

> I also introduce the use of "honey pot" email addresses for spam 
> identification, which is an idea I have not seem elsewhere.

There are thousands of the and they are in wide use.

> Please let me know if there are any relevant activities in Collaborative 
> real time spam blocking standards activities.

spamcop has a blacklist that is feeded by spam reports and uses a short
time to live for entries, so that active spews can be blocked fast.

However there are a lot of problems involved in blacklists (and
whitelists also):
1) stale entries
   we have our own maintained blacklists with entries dating back to
   2001. The list has about 100 million IP addresses listed and it
   for sure has stale entries.
2) grouping addresses
   remember: some admins at ISPs a fscking dumb.
   I have seen cases where they had one or two official mailservers in
   the same /24 as their dialin accounts. And as they use some automatic
   DNS maintenace tool the rev DNS for that mailservers is even the same
   as for the dialin lines. You have 5 incidents from that subnet, you
   group and block the whole /24 and your tech hotline has some fun with
   angry customers.
3) classification
   we operate a network of some hundred mailservers for our customers.
   These include virus checking. We had the idea to automatically run
   a blacklist of "virus spews" (that are also spam spews in a lot of
   cases) by sending UDP messages to a centralized server that puts the
   IPs from that messages in a blacklist.
   Bad idea.
   Really a lot of the messages going to the mailservers are forwards
   that are routed through mailservers without virus checking. Within
   24 hours we had tons of large, official mailservers of large ISPs and
   organisations on the blocklist. Luckily in the test phase we used it
   for tagging only and didn't block hard.
   Even setting a timeout of 4 hours for the entries didn't change much.
4) the same problem above for viruses applies to spam messages, too.
   For dialup customers we provide outgoing relays (smarthosts). Although
   we have a close monitoring of those servers and abuse is detected
   very fast usually and we block the customer (open relay, virus,
   feedback script on the webserver).
   However even the e.g. 500 messages going through may trigger honey
   pots and have the server blacklisted. Due to some latency (managing
   the blacklists) the entry may even be done after we already have
   fixed the problem.
5) we do artificial backup MX
   spammers and even viruses prefer to connect to backup MX server
   because they have weaker policies than the best MX servers usually.
   The greylisting success principle "spammers fire and forget" makes
   the artifical backup MX servers also very successful.
   Same idea as for the virus detection: feed the hosts connecting to
   the backup MX if the best MX is running to a blacklist.
   Bad idea.
   Even some official mailservers have their own "idea" what to do on
   delivery failures (temp or perm) to the best MX and quite some of
   them connect do MX servers with a longer distance (bigger prio
   number).
   During a four weeks test phase we collected about 800000 unique IP
   addresses, but through the fact - even it if where only very few -
   some of them where from legitimate mailservers it renders this mechanism
   useless. Having a big mailserver that makes 300000 connections a day
   to the mailservers under your control on the block and be it for
   15 minutes does a lot of damage. Even though customers hate spam
   they hate it even to have messages blocked they are waiting for,
   because they need them urgently or they are of big value.

All this automated blocking looks very good and promising at first glance,
but the devil is in the details ...

	\Maex

-- 
SpaceNet AG            | Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 | Fon: +49 (89) 32356-0
Research & Development |       D-80807 Muenchen    | Fax: +49 (89) 32356-299
"The security, stability and reliability of a computer system is reciprocally
 proportional to the amount of vacuity between the ears of the admin"

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	<20041023010059.A23578@evita.devdas.geek>
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On 10/22/2004 12:30 PM, Devdas Bhagat sent forth electrons to convey:

>On 22/10/04 14:28 -0400, Jim Whitescarver wrote:
>  
>
>>Greetings,
>>
>>I do not know if this is the correct forum to address this issue.  
>>Please let me know if these issues are being addressed elsewhere.  What 
>>I am seeking is a means for coordinating a grass roots trust network for 
>>aggressive dynamic blocking of spammer IP addresses.    
>>    
>>
Such a system is already in operation and wide use.  For more info see
http://www.drbl.croco.net/eng/  (or http://www.drbl.croco.net/ for 
Russian!) and
http://www.drbl.croco.net/eng/faq.html
Just set up a DRBL node, store your BL in it, and announce it.

>
>The best idea I have seen for this is a PGP/GPG signed post to usenet.
>
The latency is rather high, but it is highly DDoS-resistant.



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From: "Mark C. Langston" <mark@bitshift.org>
To: ASRG <asrg@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Asrg] Collaborative real time spam blocking
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On Fri, Oct 22, 2004 at 02:28:06PM -0400, Jim Whitescarver wrote:
> Greetings,
> 
> I do not know if this is the correct forum to address this issue.  
> Please let me know if these issues are being addressed elsewhere.  What 
> I am seeking is a means for coordinating a grass roots trust network for 
> aggressive dynamic blocking of spammer IP addresses.    While there are 
> many blacklists out there, they do not provide for mechanisms to 
> facilitate real time blocking.  Standards are needed for collaborative 
> blocking,  incident reporting and verification.  Spammers move to 
> quickly for traditional blacklisting approaches be effective.


Have a look at GOSSiP (http://www.sufficiently-advanced.net/ ).  It's a
massively-distributed, peer-to-peer email reputation system.  It could,
in theory, do exactly this sort of thing.  However, I'd need to add some
fairly thoroughly-thought-through identity-aggregation and behavioral
pattern analysis/identification to get it all the way to where you'd
want it to be.

As a quick kludge, you could probably examine all 0 reputation, 0
confidence incoming mail and simply pattern-match GOSSiP ID elements
against other 0/0 identities in the database.  If the total mailcount
from a given identity is, say, <10 (or anything you wish), it's all
tagged as being spam, and the ID is a partial match to other IDs with
similar characteristics, there are assumptions you could make before the
mail is accepted for delivery.  

Since GOSSiP's basically a social network (in the "social network
theory" sense), you'd also have regional variations because of the
scale-free nature of such nets.  The "relay nodes" described at the end
of the spec on the website would allow visibility into these regional
variations, just as "social hubs" act as bridges between otherwise
diverse social groups.

-- 
Mark C. Langston            GOSSiP Project          Sr. Unix SysAdmin
mark@bitshift.org   http://sufficiently-advanced.net    mark@seti.org
Systems & Network Admin      Distributed               SETI Institute
http://bitshift.org       E-mail Reputation       http://www.seti.org

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On Thu, Oct 21, 2004, Claus Assmann wrote:
> Wouldn't it be simpler to support MTAmark instead of some naming
> scheme? Maybe an organization has some guidelines it needs/wants
> to follow for naming hosts; MTAmark wouldn't interfere with that
> but still allows others to find out whether a system is supposed
> to send mail.

Claus, you are correct, provided MTAmark is implemented.  What is the
status of MTAmark?  MTAmark seems to be a modification of the DNS
specification, so how long before everyone's BINDs get up to date?

To be really honest, I'm small fry.  I don't do my own DNS -- I let my
registrar do it.  And the interface they have doesn't seem to allow for
TXT records.

Doug Campbell

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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 07:12:56 -0500
To: "Asrg" <asrg@ietf.org>
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On 2004-10-28 15:22:49 -0700, Douglas Campbell wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 21, 2004, Claus Assmann wrote:
> > Wouldn't it be simpler to support MTAmark instead of some naming
> > scheme? Maybe an organization has some guidelines it needs/wants
> > to follow for naming hosts; MTAmark wouldn't interfere with that
> > but still allows others to find out whether a system is supposed
> > to send mail.
>=20
> Claus, you are correct, provided MTAmark is implemented.  What is the
> status of MTAmark?  MTAmark seems to be a modification of the DNS
> specification, so how long before everyone's BINDs get up to date?

Last time I looked, MTAmark needed only a couple of TXT records. No
change of DNS or BIND necessary.

> To be really honest, I'm small fry.  I don't do my own DNS -- I let my
> registrar do it.  And the interface they have doesn't seem to allow for
> TXT records.

You aren't the only one. My ISP doesn't delegate reverse DNS for /29
networks, so I couldn't implement MTAmark for my home network myself but
need my ISP to do that. (OTOH, maybe that isn't that bad - let ISPs
publish MTA=3Dno indications for their whole range and customers who want
to run their own MTA have to explicitely tell their ISP).

	hp

--=20
   _  | Peter J. Holzer    | Je h=F6her der Norden, desto weniger wird
|_|_) | Sysadmin WSR       | =FCberhaupt gesprochen, also auch kein Dialekt.
| |   | hjp@hjp.at         | Hallig Gr=F6de ist fast g=E4nzlich dialektfrei.
__/   | http://www.hjp.at/ |   -- Hannes Petersen in desd

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From: John Levine <asrg@johnlevine.com>
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Subject: [Asrg] ASRG session at IETF 61
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The ASRG session at the Washington IETF is scheduled for Thursday
afternoon the 11th.  I need to send them an agenda tomorrow.

My current agenda is similar to last time, poll the subgroups and see
who's doing anything.  If you want to make a presentation (five minute
limit), please let me know by the 5th so I can figure out how much
time to assign to what, and if you have slides, send them or a pointer
to them by the 5th as well.

Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY
http://www.taugh.com

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